Zenith-List Archive Browser

Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-ip
December 26, 2008 - January 12, 2009

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________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2008
From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
Larry Thank you for the post. I am planning to put my pumps in the wing also, but I have built a more complicated installation based on a concept at ch601.org. Simple is beautiful--I like your idea much better. Since I have plenty of time, I think that I will probably install my pumps at you have done. One thing I'm undecided about--fuel filters. The instructions for the pumps recommend a filter upstream from the pump. My EAA Tech Counselor doesn't believe in filters that can plug up on the pump suction. I don't know what I will do. Regarding the fuel lines, I personally doubt 4 years unused is an issue for those lines, assuming the hoses have not been exposed to UV light (i.e., sunlight). I'm planning to use aluminum lines from the wings through the firewall. I'm more comfortable with metal lines. We'll see if I have any luck bending the aluminum tubing into 3-D shapes :-) I'm thinking I need to order some more tubing to allow for mistakes. Let us know how the wing mounted pumps work out for you. Terry >Hi All > >Last year when I was working on the wings. I made the decision to put a >fuel pump in the root of each wing. As I see it a pump is much better at >pushing than it is at suction. > >Anyway, I now have the fuselage on the gear!!! and I have brought the >wings back to the bench for finish work and closure of the top skin and >top leading edge. > >I'm concerned about the longevity of the fuel lines, on two fronts. First >this line came with the kit I picked up in Nov 2005. Is age a factor >here?? These lines wont see fuel for at least another 4 months. > >Second Question, Since ethanol is hard to avoid in MOGAS these days I'd >like to make sure that my fuel system is compatible. What about these >lines?? Is Ethanol / MOGAS a problem for this line?? As you can see from >the attached picture I can inspect the lines through the access port but >the only way to replace them is to open up the leading edge. So obviously >if I need to make a change, now it the time. > >Comments Concerns Criticisms All welcome!! > >Larry Whitlow >601XL 85% done 61% to go >N69102 (reserved) or N747LW (reserved) (I can't decide) Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
Larry, The pumps on the firewall will suck the tanks dry (Don't ask me how I found this out) we initially thought we had a leak in the line but after checking everything out we had about 2 oz of fuel in the tank so the pumps perform well, in fact if the pumps were behind the fuel it would have ran out sooner because the lines would have been full of fuel but the pump would have had nothing to push after the tank was empty. Jeff Jeff I'm using all aluminum and AN fittings inside the cabin. My reason for the pumps in the wingroot centers around the Fuel selector valve in the cabin. The valve (per the plans) winds up about 12 inches (give or take) and is most certainly the high spot in the fuel system I was (and still am) concerned that low fuel levels in the tanks would lead to a low enough head pressure to not get usable fuel past the valve. In which case the pumps on the firewall have nothing to pump. Thoughts?? Larry **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
Date: Dec 26, 2008
Larry; Don't forget to add that to your flight manual. Fuel Unusable = 2oz. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump Larry, The pumps on the firewall will suck the tanks dry (Don't ask me how I found this out) we initially thought we had a leak in the line but after checking everything out we had about 2 oz of fuel in the tank so the pumps perform well, in fact if the pumps were behind the fuel it would have ran out sooner because the lines would have been full of fuel but the pump would have had nothing to push after the tank was empty. Jeff Jeff I'm using all aluminum and AN fittings inside the cabin. My reason for the pumps in the wingroot centers around the Fuel selector valve in the cabin. The valve (per the plans) winds up about 12 inches (give or take) and is most certainly the high spot in the fuel system I was (and still am) concerned that low fuel levels in the tanks would lead to a low enough head pressure to not get usable fuel past the valve. In which case the pumps on the firewall have nothing to pump. Thoughts?? Larry _____ One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try 025> it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
Roger I would go 4 oz just for a margin of safety.... Jeff Larry; Don=99t forget to add that to your flight manual. Fuel Unusable = 2oz. Roger ____________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol. com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump Larry, The pumps on the firewall will suck the tanks dry (Don't ask me how I found this out) we initially thought we had a leak in the line but after checking everything out we had about 2 oz of fuel in the tank so the pumps perform well, in fact if the pumps were behind the fuel it would have ran out soone r because the lines would have been full of fuel but the pump would have had nothing to push after the tank was empty. Jeff Jeff I'm using all aluminum and AN fittings inside the cabin. My reason for the pumps in the wingroot centers around the Fuel selector valve in the cabin. The valve (per the plans) winds up about 12 inches (giv e or take) and is most certainly the high spot in the fuel system I was (and still am) concerned that low fuel levels in the tanks would lead to a low enough head pressure to not get usable fuel past the valve. In which case the pumps on the firewall have nothing to pump. Thoughts?? Larry **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. m00000025) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)primus.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
Date: Dec 27, 2008
I think I've heard that ethanol in the fuel will eat up aluminum so the alum pipes are not a good idea. Any comments? Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "lwhitlow" <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: > Roger > > I would go 4 oz just for a margin of safety.... > > Jeff > > I think I'll live large and take it all the way to a Quart...... Now where did I put my measuring cup [Rolling Eyes] Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221346#221346 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2008
From: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
Dave, Not to worry about ethanol eating aluminum. The trucks delivering the stuff are using aluminum to convey and transfer the ethanol as well as lots of vehicles burning the stuff with aluminum in them. I'm running aluminum tanks and lines and burn 87-octane with 10% ethanol. Do replace the fuel filter and short rubber hoses each side of the filter every year though. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Dave Austin wrote: > > I think I've heard that ethanol in the fuel will eat up aluminum so > the alum pipes are not a good idea. Any comments? > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Self Leveling Laser Awesome Time Saver
From: "Fly with Gus" <Gus(at)flywithgus.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2008
This procedure is shown in HomebuiltHELP's 601xl fuselage building dvd Jon and I made earlier this year. We used a 50 buck Black and Decker self leveler from that orange big box home store. I prefer the one that shoots a vertical as well as horizontal line. There was only about 2mm variation from firewall to tailpost on the fuselage built for the dvd. -Gus Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221370#221370 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net>
Date: Dec 27, 2008
lwhitlow wrote: > > > Ron, > > If I'm looking at that picture correctly, you came out of the tank to an AN fitting and then to the braided line through the nose ribs. > > What's your connection at the wing root into the fuselage? > > Larry Larry, My plan is to run the braided line through grommets to the selector valve. I am using the center stick and following WW's "Corvair/601 Engine Installation Manual". Once the wings go on the plane and everything is plumbed and wired I hope to never have to detach them. If I do need to detach them though I will just disconnect at the tank and remove the wings. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221375#221375 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Gentlemen, I agree with Jeff's opinion on the aluminum tubing. I have plumbed my fuel system entirely with aluminum tubing thus far and will do so to the firewall. The only flexible line is from the firewall to the engine and that is the braided line like the one pictured in Ron's post. Rubber fuel Lines: If the rubber fuel line was supplied with the pump and the pump was purchased from an automotive parts supplier, it is safe to assume that the lines are for that application and therefore probably will not be affected by the ethanol. Any fuel line purchased for the automotive application should be ethanol safe. Hose clamps: Standard practice in the Marine Industry is to double clamp all hose fittings below the waterline for safety. Obviously that would increase weight in the aircraft application and that would be undesirable. There are always spring clamps available. Spring clamps are very common in fuel systems and you can get the clamps at any auto parts store. AN fittings are in my opinion the best way to go with either hose or tubing. Fuel pump Placement: Fuel pumps are designed to provide pressure, not draw a vacuum. Obviously they will draw some vacuum but this is not their intended purpose nor their strong suite. The fuel pumps should be placed as low in the system as possible but not lower than the gascolator. They should be placed after the Gascolator to avoid as much debris going through the pump as possible. Pre-pump filters are common on many fuel systems. As long as the pumps are below the tanks outlet and are gravity fed they will pump. I would prefer the pumps be as close to the engine as possible. I think the firewall is the best place for them. That being said, the pumps are sufficiently strong to supply the pressure as far away as the wing roots. So I think that option should work as well. -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221379#221379 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Flap Trailing Edge Rivet HELP!
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Greetings, my first post from a new 650 builder, What are you all doing about the trailing edge rivets on the flap? When riveting one side the previous rivet gets in the way of the opposite side. Any advice? I'm sure there is an easy fix, I'm going to be proof that a greenhorn amateur can really build an airframe. Happy Holidays, Anthony Ft.Bragg, NC ZenVair650 builder Tail done, wing flaps started, engine test ran!!! -------- Anthony Hanson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221388#221388 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Speaking of Fuel Filters
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Anyone have a vendor and part number for a fuel filter or filter holder with AN Male on the input side and Female on the output end? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221389#221389 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2008
From: "Carlos Sa" <carlossa52(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Progress report
Hello, all Despite a nasty cold, I managed to be ready to store the left wing next to the right wing in the garage as planned: before year end. All I need to do is to carry it to the garage, attach the wing tip (it is very hard to go up the basement stairs with it - lesson learned when the right wing was moved) and place it on a shelf built for that purpose. So I thought some planning was in order: I visited a few web sites and stared at a number of pictures of CH601-HD(S) centre wings, refreshed my memory on the different components, etc. So far so good. Then a mandatory stop at Larry C. McFarland's web site - and a cold shower. Larry's building narrative is covered in journal sections 1 through 7. He was done with the wings by the end of section 2, and was already working on the fuselage. If the relation holds, I need another 25 years to finish my plane... Sigh... Carlos CH601-HD, plans ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flap Trailing Edge Rivet HELP!
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Welcome to the family Anthony. They need to be offset. Not by much but a little. I seem to remember there was a spot on the Rudder that was the same way. You will run into some more places like that as you build. nosky2high wrote: > Greetings, my first post from a new 650 builder, > > What are you all doing about the trailing edge rivets on the flap? When riveting one side the previous rivet gets in the way of the opposite side. Any advice? > > I'm sure there is an easy fix, I'm going to be proof that a greenhorn amateur can really build an airframe. > > Happy Holidays, > > Anthony > Ft.Bragg, NC > ZenVair650 builder > Tail done, wing flaps started, engine test ran!!! -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221390#221390 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flap Trailing Edge Rivet HELP!
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Not sure how to offset? skins are predrilled and I'm down to the last 6 rivets, hopefully there's a solution out there so I don't have to drill out an entire flap. Anthony -------- Anthony Hanson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221396#221396 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flap Trailing Edge Rivet HELP!
Date: Dec 27, 2008
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Anthony. My flap skins were not pre-drilled, so I just offset the holes enough to allow both rivets to be set.? If yours are pre-drilled, the best answer is to find some Avex rivets that are long enough to clinch the joint, but short enough to eliminate interference.? You might also try inserting rivets through both sides at angles to each other and then pulling them a little at a time, alternating between rivets. You are going to find, later in the construction, other places where interferences occur.? This is especially true where you install A5 rivets in both legs of an angle.? With the tail of an A5 rivet protruding toward the inside of an angle, there is no way you can get clearance for the rivet gun to pull a rivet from the inside of the angle. In one instance (on the firewall, I think), I hadn't offset the holes and had to drill out a whole row of rivets. When I re-did it,? I set the rivets in the first leg from the inside of the angle (head inside, tail outside), those in the other leg I set from the outside of the angle (head outside, tail inside).? Moral:? Look ahead??? and think! Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: nosky2high <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 2:00 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Flap Trailing Edge Rivet HELP! Greetings, my first post from a new 650 builder, What are you all doing about the trailing edge rivets on the flap? When riveting one side the previous rivet gets in the way of the opposite side. Any advice? I'm sure there is an easy fix, I'm going to be proof that a greenhorn amateur can really build an airframe. Happy Holidays, Anthony Ft.Bragg, NC ZenVair650 builder Tail done, wing flaps started, engine test ran!!! -------- Anthony Hanson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221388#221388 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Davcoberly(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Subject: Re: Flap Trailing Edge Rivet HELP!
Zenith will tell you to cock them crooked and while pushing down and pulling with a hand puller straighten them up as you go. That didn't work for me so I drove the center stem out and ground the body short enough to fit put the pin back in and pulled them -worked good- but would do it only with that last rivet on trailing edge because they won't be as strong. David Coberly 601XL / Corvair ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2008
From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>
Subject: Re: Flap Trailing Edge Rivet HELP!
Anthony Don't drill. FWIW, I'll append my comment from my builders log regarding this problem. It must have worked, because the rivets are in place now. "3. After the bottom was riveted, the trailing edge rivets could not be inserted on the top because the rivet on the bottom is in the way. The pilot holes should have been offset to avoid this problem. I recall there was a place on the empennage where the holes were offset to avoid this sort of problem. ZAC really should modify their pilot drilled kits to eliminate this conflict. 4. Called ZAC; Caleb suggested tilting the top rivet and forcing it in until an edge was in contact with the skin. Then pulling the rivet with a hand riveter and moving it normal to the surface as it shortens. He said that if the rivet could not be inserted until an edge was in contact with the skin, then the hole should be enlarged with a drill at an angle until the rivet could be inserted. After examining the aileron skins for the same problem and looking again at the flaps, I concluded that the conflict would be reduced if I had riveted the top- trailing-edge-skin before the bottom skin. It looks like, because of the angles and placement of the pilot holes, a set bottom rivet interferes with the top rivet insertion more than vice-versa." Good luck. Terry >Not sure how to offset? skins are predrilled and I'm down to the last 6 >rivets, hopefully there's a solution out there so I don't have to drill >out an entire flap. > >Anthony Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Speaking of Fuel Filters
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Gig, There are several, none of which are cheap, but I think worth it. Both Jegs & Summit carry them. the brands are names like Aeroquip, Earls, Aeromotive and I think Jegs & summit both have their own brands. Some have replaceable elements and some are throwaways. Here are some links: http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+4294925239+115+4294839051&NeXID=5 http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/category_10001_10002_10293_-1_10267 -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221402#221402 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Redundant Airspeed with EFIS Question
From: "rbjjr" <burkeandsusan(at)verizon.net>
Date: Dec 27, 2008
I have seen many panels with EFIS airspeeds that include a backup steam airspeed as well for redundancy. I'm curious how this setup is plumbed. Do you need two pitot tubes or can you somehow split the pitot pressure tube to feed two instruments? Thanks Burke Johnson CH-750 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221408#221408 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 27, 2008
Subject: Re: Flap Trailing Edge Rivet HELP!
Anthony, The way to get around this problem is to take the stem out of the rivet and shorten the rivet then reinsert the stem and you can get it in without cocking it sideways and making your new flap look like crap. When you get really good you will be able to race the rivet gun and beat the head to the skin before it sets but don't try this unless you have set a million gazillion rivets. Jeff Greetings, my first post from a new 650 builder, What are you all doing about the trailing edge rivets on the flap? When riveting one side the previous rivet gets in the way of the opposite side. Any advice? I'm sure there is an easy fix, I'm going to be proof that a greenhorn amateur can really build an airframe. Happy Holidays, Anthony Ft.Bragg, NC ZenVair650 builder Tail done, wing flaps started, engine test ran!!! -------- Anthony Hanson **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2008
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
I filter all my gasoline with a Chamois covered funnel,- is the first pie ce of "luggage" in my plane in a XCountry :-).- Never had fueled direct f rom the pump to the tank...- The only way to trust the Gascolator... - Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. Today a real clear and calm sky,- great afternoon, missed my camera! --- On Sat, 12/27/08, Terry Phillips wrote: From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 12:18 AM Larry Thank you for the post. I am planning to put my pumps in the wing also, but I have built a more complicated installation based on a concept at ch601.org. Simple is beautiful--I like your idea much better. Since I have plenty of t ime, I think that I will probably install my pumps at you have done. One thing I'm undecided about--fuel filters. The instructions for the pumps recommend a filter upstream from the pump. My EAA Tech Counselor doesn't believe in filters that can plug up on the pump suction. I don't know what I will do. Regarding the fuel lines, I personally doubt 4 years unused is an issue for those lines, assuming the hoses have not been exposed to UV light (i.e., sunlight). I'm planning to use aluminum lines from the wings through the firewall. I'm more comfortable with metal lines. We'll see if I have any luck bending the aluminum tubing into 3-D shapes :-) I'm thinking I need to order some more tubing to allow for mistakes. Let us know how the wing mounted pumps work out for you. Terry > Hi All > > Last year when I was working on the wings. I made the decision to put a fuel pump in the root of each wing. As I see it a pump is much better at pu shing than it is at suction. > > Anyway, I now have the fuselage on the gear!!! and I have brought the wings back to the bench for finish work and closure of the top skin and top leading edge. > > I'm concerned about the longevity of the fuel lines, on two fronts. First this line came with the kit I picked up in Nov 2005. Is age a factor here?? These lines wont see fuel for at least another 4 months. > > Second Question, Since ethanol is hard to avoid in MOGAS these days I'd like to make sure that my fuel system is compatible. What about these lines?? Is Ethanol / MOGAS a problem for this line?? As you can see from the attached picture I can inspect the lines through the access port but the on ly way to replace them is to open up the leading edge. So obviously if I need to make a change, now it the time. > > Comments Concerns Criticisms All welcome!! > > Larry Whitlow > 601XL 85% done 61% to go > N69102 (reserved) or N747LW (reserved) (I can't decide) Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: george may <gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Redundant Airspeed with EFIS Question
Date: Dec 28, 2008
Burke-- I have redundant airspeeds=2C using dual Dynons=2C and ended up splitting the pitot and static lines. Works fine George May 601XL 912s > Subject: Zenith-List: Redundant Airspeed with EFIS Question > From: burkeandsusan(at)verizon.net > Date: Sat=2C 27 Dec 2008 14:57:38 -0800 > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > > > I have seen many panels with EFIS airspeeds that include a backup steam a irspeed as well for redundancy. I'm curious how this setup is plumbed. Do you need two pitot tubes or can you somehow split the pitot pressure tube to feed two instruments? > > Thanks > > Burke Johnson > CH-750 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221408#221408 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ It=92s the same Hotmail=AE. If by =93same=94 you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad 1_122008 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2008
From: John Goodings <goodings(at)yorku.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
It is, perhaps, salutory to register a different opinion. Personally, I wouldn't DREAM of using metal fuel lines. In my research labs over many years, we used a great deal of metal tubing with metal fittings (mainly Swagelock, brass and stainless) for gas lines (hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, chlorine, etc.) to feed burners for combustion studies. It takes a while before one has sufficient experience to be really good at these installations. The metal fittings crimp tightly into the tubing to make a work-hardened gas-tight seal; it is a localized stress point. These can crack. Under vibration near an aircraft engine, they would be a constant source of worry to my mind. Modern rubber fuel line (ethanol is not a problem) is excellent. The rubber fuel lines in our 601HD are now over 5 years old. I keep inspecting them, but there is no sign of deterioration. A local AME tells me they should be routinely replaced after 10 years as is done on certified aircraft, even though they may not need it. Incidentally, Dave, pure ethanol and gasoline won't have the slightest effect on aluminum, nor will pure water. The effect of an ethanol/impure water mixture is more difficult to guess, because it depends on the impurities. John Goodings, C-FGPJ CH601HD with R912S, Carp/Ottawa/Toronto. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Redundant Airspeed with EFIS Question
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 28, 2008
The Aircraft Spruce catalog has a drawing showing the plumbing needed to do this. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221483#221483 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Dec 28, 2008
John, Using aluminum fuel lines is standard practice in certified aircraft. The metals you mentioned are known for work hardening and would be poor choices for sure in a fuel system on an aircraft. The Highest vibration frequency area would be the transition between the airframe and the engine. This is why I elected to use a hose connection from the firewall to the engine. This line should be well supported or tied to avoid movement even still. The aluminum tubing typically used for fuel lines is alloy 3003-0. This tubing is specifically for fuel lines as well as oil lines and is commonly used for air and instrument lines also. It is common practice to secure these lines so vibration is limited and annealing the tubing after bending and flaring is also recommended. However, regardless of what your fuel system is made of Preventive maintenance is called Preventive for a reason, and should be inspected often. It is always better to find the issue before it is a problem. Dave Austin, I would think that any adverse affect to the aluminum in an aircraft fuel system would be caused by galvanic corrosion rather than some chemical incompatibility like what happens with the carburetor gaskets and diaphragms when exposed to ethanol. For those who are not familiar with galvanic corrosion; it is caused by dissimilar metals that come in contact with an electrolyte of some sort. The electrolyte could be as simple as water. Galvanic action is how batteries work and how electroplating is done. Sorry if that seemed obvious to most of you but maybe not everyone is familiar. I once removed the fresh water tanks in a multimillion $ Yacht because of galvanic corrosion. Someone had installed a brass fitting in the aluminum tank. A simple oversight that ended in a severely expensive refit. -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221494#221494 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: CH-650 for X-plane?
From: "ndrkok" <akok(at)post.harvard.edu>
Date: Dec 28, 2008
Hello, Just wondering if anyone out there has modeled a CH-650 in X-Plane? I've been able to find a couple versions of the XL out there, but have not been happy with how they "fly." Thanks! Andre Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221496#221496 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Trainnut01(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 28, 2008
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Dec 28, 2008
Carroll, Not a bad point. Always very tough decisions. No perfect solutions & always a compromise. :) -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221500#221500 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 28, 2008
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2008
From: Don Mountain <mountain4don(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Holes in plastic cable guides
I am starting to run control cables in the fuselage of my 601XL.- What si ze should I drill the holes in the plastic cable guides?- Should they be as tight as I can get them?- Or is a little space better.- 5/32" is abo ut as small as I can get the cables through.- Or should they be a little larger like 3/16"? Don Mountain 601 XL, finishing fuselage =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 29, 2008
Subject: Re: Holes in plastic cable guides
Don It really depends on how clean you cut the cables. If you can get them thru a 5/32 hole go for it but if your cables fray some you might have a problem getting them thru. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) w_ww.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) I am starting to run control cables in the fuselage of my 601XL. What size should I drill the holes in the plastic cable guides? Should they be as tight as I can get them? Or is a little space better. 5/32" is about as small as I can get the cables through. Or should they be a little larger like 3/16"? Don Mountain 601 XL, finishing fuselage **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Holes in plastic cable guides
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2008
I'm pretty sure I used a #20 drill bit for all of those. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221599#221599 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Holes in plastic cable guides
Date: Dec 29, 2008
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Don, The hole size is not critical, as long as you can get the cable through it.? The guide (fairlead) is at a place where the cable changes direction slightly.? When the cable is under tension, it will be snug against one side of the hole.? Even a round-ended slot would work; and, in fact, they are called for in a few places.? With a slot, you need a loop of safety wire across the slot to capture the cable while it is slack. The safety wire loop serves no purpose when the cable is tensioned. The drawings call for a #20 drill bit, but I think any size hole, up to your 3/16" would be OK. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Don Mountain <mountain4don(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 9:27 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Holes in plastic cable guides I am starting to run control cables in the fuselage of my 601XL.? What size should I drill the holes in the plastic cable guides?? Should they be as tight as I can get them?? Or is a little space better.? 5/32" is about as small as I can get the cables through.? Or should they be a little larger like 3/16"? Don Mountain 601 XL, finishing fuselage ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2008
The CH640 and Alarus use the same rubber fuel lines as the 601. The Alarus service manual specifies replacing the rubber fuel lines every 5 years or 2400 hours, whichever comes first. Because I didn't want to mess with changing out the hoses, I put in aluminum lines up to the firewall. I think either will work fine, if you don't mind switching them out every 5 years. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221634#221634 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net>
Date: Dec 29, 2008
I've installed aluminum lines in the wings and plan to use flex lines between the wings and fuselage then aluminum up to the firewall. From the firewall to the carb on the Jabiru I'll be running a rubber hose. I've had experience with leaking rubber hose in hard to reach areas of a production aircraft (usually connections between aluminum lines) and prefer not to deal with such problems in my XL. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221657#221657 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Subject: Holes in plastic cable guides
Date: Dec 29, 2008
On the quick-build kits some of the holes are large enough to pass the entire turnbuckle through. -- Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wanna see something cool?
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2008
Check out this video. This has little to do with airplanes directly. But if you find CNC machining or machinery interesting and you like Joe, you might enjoy watching this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMS8wWOD0HE I will post more; that have to do with aircraft, parts and specifically Corvair stuff and such as they become available. :) To nights project is to film the Machine cutting a pair of Corvair Heads. Should be fun. :) Enjoy, -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221722#221722 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net>
Date: Dec 29, 2008
You won't get flamed by me.... personally I think the info gained by these discussions is important in helping each of us to decide how we want to go with our planes. I think that either approach has it's pros and cons which the builder needs to weigh before going ahead with whatever they feel most comfortable with. The key is to be sure to inspect your fuel lines on a regular basis and take action as necessary. In the real world such things seldom get much attention until they fail. Having a mechanic poke around once a year isn't enough. Regarding metal fuel lines, believe it or not the lines used in my Aeronca Champ are copper with brass fittings. The one exception is a flexible aeroquip hose from the gascolator on the firewall to the carb. It has worked well for the last 23 years that I've been flying it. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221725#221725 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net>
Date: Dec 29, 2008
Oops! I forgot to mention that I had a aluminum brake line fail once. It broke when I tried to reposition it slightly. The line broke near the top of the landing gear where it was exposed to flexing during every flight. A poor design in my view. I would never use a aluminum line where it would be exposed to any movement. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221726#221726 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2008
Ben, The pin holes you described are Galvanic corrosion caused by electrolysis. This is easy to stop if one is aware of the potential and it's causes. This is common in older aircraft as well as older pilots :) But once you find it you should give the entire plane a thorough look over because it is usually not just one area. Soft lines are easier to run or pull. But just you try to push one through a wing :) Just kidding. As long as it works and you are comfortable with it. Ask 10 different engineers the same question and you will get 10 different answers. -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221756#221756 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2008
From: wfwilson1(at)yahoo.ca
Subject: Yahoo! Auto Response
I will have limited access to my mail until Apr 19/09. So there might be slow response. Regards Wayne ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2008
From: vann covington <vanncovi(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: drip trays
Thanks for the advice on the drip trays.- I checked with CPS 2008 cat. an d-rotax wanted $149.00 for a set of two, but when I ordered them they wer e now $250.00 for two in the 2009 cat!- After regaining my composer I ask ed CPS what their cost was.- CPS said their cost was $200.00.- Could no t justify spending that. - I noticed on CT's site, they had some on their 912's.- I called and o rdered theirs for $21.00 ea.- Slightly different design, same principle. - Not bad.- Vann=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: pro-seal fuel tanks questions
From: "leinad" <leinad(at)hughes.net>
Date: Dec 30, 2008
I have some tooling holes in my fuel tank parts that I was intending to fill with solid AN-6 rivets. Will these self seal, or should i smear pro-seal around them. If so, should they be smeared with the goo before or after setting them. Of course it would be a lot less messy if I smear the stuff around the shop head after setting them. -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221803#221803 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2008
From: Ken Lilja <planes_by_ken(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Cooling
Better than ram air is a defuser. If you look at modern versions of older designs the cooling air inlet area is now about 30% of what they were. The air path forms a divergent duct. By Bernoulli's principle the air slows down and pressure goes up. Manufactures look for a pressure drop from top to the bottom of the engine. One plane I have worked on needed a 6" of water pressure difference. Some aircraft use an augmenter exhaust to lower the pressure in the lower cowl. This uses the exhaust flow to create a venturi effect. The images are of a Diamond DA-40 with a 180HP Lycoming. The air inlets are about 6" in diameter. They feed into a plenum defuser. Air must be prevented from getting past the baffle seals. Also air will try to leak around the propshaft. Teaching turbine engines at the moment, Ken Lilja Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: > Brady > > With all due respect, how many aircraft have you built? You are > starting to be the WW of the Zenith list. I think you are a smart guy > and like what you are trying to do but wouldn't it be better to have > built at least 1 airplane before you hand out answers to others > problems? Having worked on a Jab that overheats it is a pain in the > ass engine when it comes to cooling. Jab will tell you they don't have > a problem but I have seen too many posts about overheating to believe > that. > > BTW if the intake is small where is it going to "Suck" the air from? > The Jab uses small deflectors inside the baffles and if they are too > big or small the rear cylinder will overheat. > > Jeff > > > > > Bobby, > > Be sure not to over look the exit. > All the intake in the world won't do you any good if it has nowhere to go. > Try to "suck" the cooling through. > > I have seen studies that say the intake is far less important than the > exhaust side of the cooling system. > > Also be sure you oil cooler is getting fresh air. > the oil cooler is at least as important because it is an integral part > of the whole cooling picture. > > Just food for thought. > Good luck. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2008
From: Dan Wilde <dwilde(at)clearwire.net>
Subject: drip trays
Vann: What company is CT? At that only $21, I would like to buy a couple. Dan Wilde I noticed on CT's site, they had some on their 912's. I called and ordered theirs for $21.00 ea. Slightly different design, same principle. Not bad. Vann ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net>
Date: Dec 30, 2008
Jeff, The broken brake line in question was on the 1975 C182 I used to own. There was no loop as you describe. I added hydraulic brakes to my Aeronca Champ and used aluminum lines everywhere except from the bottom of the gear leg to the brake cylinder and where the brake lines came off the parking brake valve to the top of the axle struts. Those two areas are exposed to the wind and subject to a lot of flex. I also prefer the aluminum lines but as of now am planning to go with the nylon lines that came with the kit. We'll see what happens :-) Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221831#221831 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 30, 2008
Subject: Re: pro-seal fuel tanks questions
No they will not self seal. You need to put pro seal on the rivet before you buck it and then around the head after it is set. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) www.aerolite.camstreams.com **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2008
From: "Dick" <rwripper(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Fw: Last 229 Newsletter
Earle, Please delete both Jim Campbells address and email address. He's moved. Thanks, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Nonnienat(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Last 229 Newsletter Please take my name off of the list of people that you send the air port information to. I gave it to Jim Campbell and no longer see him after his move. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Don't be the last to know - click here for the latest news that will have people talking. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Subject: drip trays
Date: Dec 30, 2008
Maybe Flight Design? Maker/dealer of the CTsw and CTLS Rotax-powered aircraft? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Wilde Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:21 PM Subject: Zenith-List: drip trays Vann: What company is CT? At that only $21, I would like to buy a couple. Dan Wilde I noticed on CT's site, they had some on their 912's. I called and ordered theirs for $21.00 ea. Slightly different design, same principle. Not bad. Vann ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Date: Dec 30, 2008
Jeff; I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com www.project601xl.com <http://www.project601xl.com/> www.aerolite.camstreams.com <http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/> John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll _____ One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 30, 2008
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don=99t think it=99s possible to create a spark with enough e nergy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don=99t see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger ____________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol. com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 1 2 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraf t are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. m00000025) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Date: Dec 30, 2008
Jeff; Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the engine. Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to the wings, don't you?) Clear as mud? Hope this helps Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com <http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/> www.project601xl.com <http://www.project601xl.com/> www.aerolite.camstreams.com <http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/> John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll _____ One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try 025> it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2008
From: vann covington <vanncovi(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: drip trays
Flight Design is the company.- Check their web site.- I called the numb er on the site home page.- Vann=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2008
From: Gary Thomas <garythomas8708(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: flap alignment
I got to put my flaps on the plane the other day. The plans say that there should be a 6mm gap between the top of the flap and the rear wing spar. I can see using a straight edge that this gap gets the flap nice and lined up with the wing. The problem - after a lot of care in lining up all the components, I still don't have the two flaps level. The best I can get is to have one of them off by 4mm and the other off by 8mm. Has anyone else been through this or talked to Zenith? I'm not sure how close is good enough. Would hate to go corkscrewing through the sky on the first flight Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: flap alignment
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2008
By 4 & 8mm do you mean a total of 10 & 14mm gap? If so you need to see which end is stopping the flap from coming up fully the inboard side or the outboard stop. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221908#221908 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: flap alignment
Date: Dec 31, 2008
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Gary, If the flap control plates (6W1-3) are in identical positions on both flaps, alignment is then determined by the attachment of the flap control arm (6B19-3) on the flap control tubes.? My instructions called for this connection to be drilled and bolted during the installation of the flap control system.? I now believe that this should be done only after the wings and flaps are installed.? There are simply too many critical variables, requiring a close tolerance, to be able to get this right without all the components in place.? I misaligned the flap control arm by only a few degrees and did not discover it until I tried to set the flap limit switches.? Because of the complex geometry of the system, the error prevents useful placement of the limit switches.? At this point in the construction, I would have had to tear the airplane apart to fix it.? My "work around" was to design and fabricate an extension to the flap control arm to correct the geometry. In your case, one of the control tubes is not aligned with the other one.? A 4mm difference at the top forward corner of the flap means almost a 1/2" difference at the trailing edge of the flaps. In my estimation, that is too much, and should be corrected.? It may be possible to remove the bolt from the inboard side of the flap control arm (because that one is longer and more accessible), rotate the tube for proper flap alignment and drill another bolt hole. In any case, I would check with ZAC to see if that is OK. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Gary Thomas <garythomas8708(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 7:22 am Subject: Zenith-List: flap alignment I got to put my flaps on the plane the other day. The plans say that there should be a 6mm gap between the top of the flap and the rear wing spar. I can see using a straight edge that this gap gets the flap nice and lined up with the wing. The problem - after a lot of care in lining up all the components, I still don't have the two flaps level. The best I can get is to have one of them off by 4mm and the other off by 8mm. Has anyone else been through this or talked to Zenith? I'm not sure how close is good enough. Would hate to go corkscrewing through the sky on the first flight Gary ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Date: Dec 31, 2008
There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans. The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result was a disaster... When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors. Factoid... ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger & Lina Hill To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Jeff; Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the engine. Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to the wings, don't you?) Clear as mud? Hope this helps Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com www.project601xl.com www.aerolite.camstreams.com John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2008
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say that a static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite fumes. But from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark when it comes to gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's why they put blowers in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark can ignite the fumes) BTW Roger read this: Grain Dust Explosion Elements For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical elements must be present: 1.fuel =93 very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat, milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc. Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide explosive potential. 2. oxygen =93 adequate air supply with normal oxygen levels. 3. confinement =93 a vertical elevator leg casing or housing, an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a bin, a silo, etc. 4. ignition source =93 an overheated bearing in an elevator leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion proof electrical device; an electrical short; phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette; a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc. Additionally, low relative humidity weather con In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion proof . And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't shock a human being Now it's clear as mud Jeff There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans. The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result wa s a disaster... When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate sta tic spark, which WILL ignite the vapors. Factoid... ----- Original Message ----- From: _Roger & Lina Hill_ (mailto:hills(at)sunflower.com) Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Jeff; Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the engi ne. Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct f uses for your pump). It=99s a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don=99t have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. W hen you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually see ing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prev ent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough amps to heat me tal to such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to t he combustion temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to the wings, don=99t you?) Clear as mud? Hope this helps Roger ____________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol. com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don=99t think it=99s possible to create a spark with enough e nergy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don=99t see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger ____________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol .com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 1 2 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraf t are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "T. Graziano" <tonyplane(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: flap alignment
Date: Dec 31, 2008
Gary, Although it has been about 3 1/2 years, since I fitted my flaps, I recall I also had a slight flap split. I built to the 6W1 02/03 revision which only had a single 0.025 in hole in the 6W1-3 nylon control plate. I removed the existing -3 plate on one of the flaps and made a new plate (I think I had to make two to get it just right) with the 0.025 in. hole relocated so to align with the other flap's position. I reinstalled the plate picking up the existing fastener locations (although I had installed a doubler plate in the area while building to give better load distribution). If you are building to the latest drawings, which had a 0.025 in. x 15mm slot, vice a hole, to pick up the flap actuator control arm "rod", I would think revising the slot as required in a new 6W1-3 control plate would work, but recommend check with Zenith. Tony Graziano XL/Jab; N493TG; 456 hrs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Thomas" <garythomas8708(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 7:22 AM Subject: Zenith-List: flap alignment > > I got to put my flaps on the plane the other day. The plans say that > there should be a 6mm gap between the top of the flap and the rear wing > spar. I can see using a straight edge that this gap gets the flap nice > and lined up with the wing. > > The problem - after a lot of care in lining up all the components, I still > don't have the two flaps level. The best I can get is to have one of them > off by 4mm and the other off by 8mm. > > Has anyone else been through this or talked to Zenith? I'm not sure how > close is good enough. Would hate to go corkscrewing through the sky on > the first flight > > Gary > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: GPS Tracking
From: "Wingrider" <rwhitt3(at)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Dec 31, 2008
I thought I'd pass on a great little application I found yesterday. It's named TrackMe and can be found at http://www.luisespinosa.com/trackme_eng.html. It uses your cell phone to send coordinates to a webserver so your position can be tracked in real time from Google Earth or from Google Maps. After reading about a guy who wrote his own program that does this I began looking for something similar. There are several fee based applications, gpsgates Buddy Tracker being one of the better low cost options based on what I've read. However TrackMe is free and can use your own server if you don't want to use his. I've only played with this a little so I don't know how well it will work in flight but it certainly looks promising. This interested me because family can monitor my position either live or from the saved data on the server and if something happened I wouldn't be relying on just the ELT. Might have been good for Steve Fossett to have. Just passing it on for what it's worth. Have a happy New Years -------- Rich Whittington Tullahoma, TN Zenith 601HDS Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221939#221939 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2008
From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>
Subject: Re: GPS Tracking
Another "free" solution to GPS tracking is the Automatic Position Reporting System (APRS) which relies on ham repeater stations that are spread across the country. See, e.g., http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canard-aviators/message/47541 APRS coverage is apparently excellent, and hardware cost is low. You need the lowest level ham license to use APRS. Equipment cost is 2 or 3 hundred bucks, but there is no monthly charge as with SPOT. Terry >Sounds like it would work well as long as you travel in areas that >have cell phone service. There are a lot of areas where cell phone >service is unavailable though. > >On Dec 31, 2008, at 11:22 AM, Wingrider wrote: > >> >>I thought I'd pass on a great little application I found yesterday. >>It's named TrackMe and can be found at >>http://www.luisespinosa.com/trackme_eng.html . It uses your cell phone to >>send coordinates to a webserver so your >>position can be tracked in real time from Google Earth or from >>Google Maps. >> >>This interested me because family can monitor my position either >>live or from the saved data on the server and if something happened >>I wouldn't be relying on just the ELT. Might have been good for >>Steve Fossett to have. > > >Terry Phillips ZBAGer >ttp44~at~rkymtn.net >Corvallis MT >601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons >are done; working on the wings >http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Date: Dec 31, 2008
Again this year just as last and the years before: There are faux experts on these websites. Some dont know... Some dont even fly aircraft. They come on these sites because of the "wana be" syndrome. Read everything and divide by two.... S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say that a static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite fumes. But from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark when it comes to gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's why they put blowers in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark can ignite the fumes) BTW Roger read this: Grain Dust Explosion Elements For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical elements must be present: 1.fuel =93 very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat, milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc. Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide explosive potential. 2. oxygen =93 adequate air supply with normal oxygen levels. 3. confinement =93 a vertical elevator leg casing or housing, an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a bin, a silo, etc. 4. ignition source =93 an overheated bearing in an elevator leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion proof electrical device; an electrical short; phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette; a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc. Additionally, low relative humidity weather con In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion proof. And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't shock a human being Now it's clear as mud Jeff There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans. The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result was a disaster... When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors. Factoid... ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger & Lina Hill To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Jeff; Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the engine. Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct fuses for your pump). It=99s a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don=99t have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to the wings, don=99t you?) Clear as mud? Hope this helps Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don=99t think it=99s possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don=99t see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com www.project601xl.com www.aerolite.camstreams.com John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- New year...new news. Be tholcom00000026">headlines. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Flydog1966(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2008
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
In a message dated 12/31/2008 12:38:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hills(at)sunflower.com writes: Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct f uses for your pump). It=99s a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don=99t have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline I'm not saying it will, or will not ignite, but all this talk has given me the urge to set up a test experiment to see for myself. I'll let you know the results ifin I dont git kilt. Flydog at Mythbusters Lab **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2008
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
I was looking on u tube but I was thinking the same thing but the fact we are both worried about getting kilt should tell us both something huh.....LOL This is one of those hey ya'll watch this.... I can top that moments. Jeff **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: GPS Tracking
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2008
But doesn't APRS require an HAM lic.? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221966#221966 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: GPS Tracking
From: "Wingrider" <rwhitt3(at)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Dec 31, 2008
I've been reading up on APRS and believe this is the way to go. TrackMe is completely free if you have a gps enabled phone and a data plan but you are relying on cell phone coverage which will diminish with altitude. For roughly $300 I believe you can have a reliable APRS package. I'm still researching. -------- Rich Whittington Tullahoma, TN Zenith 601HDS Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221978#221978 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <paulrod36(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Date: Dec 31, 2008
OK, Roger, I believe you, but if it's OK with you, I'll just stand over there. Way over there. I've also been told that a lit cigarette just in your fingers, isn't actually hot enough to ignite gasoline fumes. But for religious reasons (I am a high priest of devout cowardice) I'd like to avoid any juxtaposition of thermal energy and flammables. "I would rather be safe a hundred times than die once."-------Mark Twain Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com<mailto:Afterfxllc(at)aol.com> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say that a static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite fumes. But from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark when it comes to gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's why they put blowers in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark can ignite the fumes) BTW Roger read this: Grain Dust Explosion Elements For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical elements must be present: 1.fuel =93 very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat, milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc. Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide explosive potential. 2. oxygen =93 adequate air supply with normal oxygen levels. 3. confinement =93 a vertical elevator leg casing or housing, an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a bin, a silo, etc. 4. ignition source =93 an overheated bearing in an elevator leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion proof electrical device; an electrical short; phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette; a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc. Additionally, low relative humidity weather con In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion proof. And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't shock a human being Now it's clear as mud Jeff There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans. The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result was a disaster... When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors. Factoid... ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger & Lina Hill<mailto:hills(at)sunflower.com> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Jeff; Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the engine. Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct fuses for your pump). It=99s a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don=99t have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to the wings, don=99t you?) Clear as mud? Hope this helps Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don=99t think it=99s possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don=99t see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com<http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/> www.project601xl.com<http://www.project601xl.com/> www.aerolite.camstreams.com<http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/> John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- New year...new news. Be tholcom00000026">headlines. http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List avigator?Zenith-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Subject: GPS Tracking
Date: Dec 31, 2008
Here is a good article about installing an APRS node in an RV-6: http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/tracker.htm The Ham license basically requires studying for, and taking a test. The is no Morse code requirement. -- Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 2 More fun videos :)
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2008
For those who are interested; I just posted two more videos. The first one is of how we resurface the Head gasket area on the Corvair heads. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xptR8V9T1NM The second one is cutting out a rear starter bracket for our MagVair conversion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHNyFiEOZV4 I'm not really addicted to Joe Satriani; I just like instrumentals. I'll try to change it up a bit in the future. Enjoy :) Happy New Year! -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222022#222022 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Date: Dec 31, 2008
Good idea, but don't forget to record it, just in case it ends up qualifying for Americas funnies videos !!!!! A few ccs of avgas, shaken in a plastic pop bottle, should be all you need,,,, include an alternate spark source just to verify that the fuel air mixture is ignitable. (not that I am condoning this test of course..) Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Flydog1966(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump In a message dated 12/31/2008 12:38:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hills(at)sunflower.com writes: Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline I'm not saying it will, or will not ignite, but all this talk has given me the urge to set up a test experiment to see for myself. I'll let you know the results ifin I dont git kilt. Flydog at Mythbusters Lab _____ New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Date: Dec 31, 2008
I think it was in Kit planes last month, some poor fellow burned his fabric covered plane just by cleaning it. Apparently, rubbing caused a hot enough static spark to start the old fabric a burning,,,, heartbreaking, but something to learn from. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say that a static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite fumes. But from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark when it comes to gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's why they put blowers in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark can ignite the fumes) BTW Roger read this: Grain Dust Explosion Elements For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical elements must be present: 1.fuel - very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat, milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc. Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide explosive potential. 2. oxygen - adequate air supply with normal oxygen levels. 3. confinement - a vertical elevator leg casing or housing, an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a bin, a silo, etc. 4. ignition source - an overheated bearing in an elevator leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion proof electrical device; an electrical short; phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette; a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc. Additionally, low relative humidity weather con In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion proof. And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't shock a human being Now it's clear as mud Jeff There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans. The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result was a disaster... When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors. Factoid... ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger <mailto:hills(at)sunflower.com> & Lina Hill Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Jeff; Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the engine. Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to the wings, don't you?) Clear as mud? Hope this helps Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com <http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/> www.project601xl.com <http://www.project601xl.com/> www.aerolite.camstreams.com <http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/> John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll _____ New year...new news. Be tholcom00000026">headlines. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Date: Dec 31, 2008
Speaking of high voltage, if you put strobes in your plane, get the kind that have the power supply near the wing tip and only run 12vdc through the wing. My plane does not, and instead has 600vdc from the strobe power supply running through the wing to the tip stobe. I won't tell you how I found this out, but I was just glad nobody was around when I stuck my volt meter leads through the wire insulation..... :-) Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of paulrod36(at)msn.com Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:52 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump OK, Roger, I believe you, but if it's OK with you, I'll just stand over there. Way over there. I've also been told that a lit cigarette just in your fingers, isn't actually hot enough to ignite gasoline fumes. But for religious reasons (I am a high priest of devout cowardice) I'd like to avoid any juxtaposition of thermal energy and flammables. "I would rather be safe a hundred times than die once."-------Mark Twain Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say that a static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite fumes. But from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark when it comes to gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's why they put blowers in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark can ignite the fumes) BTW Roger read this: Grain Dust Explosion Elements For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical elements must be present: 1.fuel - very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat, milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc. Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide explosive potential. 2. oxygen - adequate air supply with normal oxygen levels. 3. confinement - a vertical elevator leg casing or housing, an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a bin, a silo, etc. 4. ignition source - an overheated bearing in an elevator leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion proof electrical device; an electrical short; phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette; a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc. Additionally, low relative humidity weather con In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion proof. And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't shock a human being Now it's clear as mud Jeff There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans. The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result was a disaster... When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors. Factoid... ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger <mailto:hills(at)sunflower.com> & Lina Hill Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Jeff; Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the engine. Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to the wings, don't you?) Clear as mud? Hope this helps Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com <http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/> www.project601xl.com <http://www.project601xl.com/> www.aerolite.camstreams.com <http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/> John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll _____ New year...new news. Be tholcom00000026">headlines. href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Date: Dec 31, 2008
Ya, in case you didn't guess, I designed electrical control systems for grain elevators and even controls for a rocket fuel plant some years back (talk about paranoid, I'm surprised they didn't limit us to 3 vdc in that place,,,, Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say that a static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite fumes. But from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark when it comes to gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's why they put blowers in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark can ignite the fumes) BTW Roger read this: Grain Dust Explosion Elements For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical elements must be present: 1.fuel - very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat, milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc. Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide explosive potential. 2. oxygen - adequate air supply with normal oxygen levels. 3. confinement - a vertical elevator leg casing or housing, an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a bin, a silo, etc. 4. ignition source - an overheated bearing in an elevator leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion proof electrical device; an electrical short; phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette; a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc. Additionally, low relative humidity weather con In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion proof. And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't shock a human being Now it's clear as mud Jeff There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans. The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result was a disaster... When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors. Factoid... ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger <mailto:hills(at)sunflower.com> & Lina Hill Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Jeff; Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the engine. Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to the wings, don't you?) Clear as mud? Hope this helps Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com <http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/> www.project601xl.com <http://www.project601xl.com/> www.aerolite.camstreams.com <http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/> John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll _____ New year...new news. Be tholcom00000026">headlines. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net>
Subject: Radio Tray
Date: Dec 31, 2008
All- What gauge is the radio tray made out of, .025 or .032? I figured .040 for the radio side mounts. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 2 More fun videos :)
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2008
That was exactly the affect I was hoping they would have! :) Get on it! Make chips! Make airplane parts! :) -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222105#222105 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2009
Happy New Year Everyone, Has anyone out there installed the aileron gussets (on the two outboard most ribs)into the 650 ailerons? The assembly guide doesn't show them yet they are only on the plans. Any guidance or advice on the best method of assembly would be appreciated. Thanks Anthony Ft Bragg, NC -------- Anthony Hanson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222172#222172 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2009
my error to previous post, gussets go on two inboard ribs -------- Anthony Hanson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222178#222178 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2009
Ok, Here's what looks like the best solution, the triangle shaped gusset goes under the inboard most rib flange as well as under the the aileron spar flange, the second gusset goes under the Aileron spar flange centered on top of the second rib. I'm lost without some destructions, i mean instructions Any thoughts? Thanks in Advance. Anthony [Question] -------- Anthony Hanson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222180#222180 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2009
here's some gusset pics for reference, note that the inboard triangle gusset's long edge is oriented along the top of the inboard rib flange. -------- Anthony Hanson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222185#222185 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_3261_312.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_3260_178.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Cooling
Date: Jan 01, 2009
Would you please explain what a defuser consists of and what you mean by a divergent duct. I am interested in learning more on this topic. If you would rather email me direct to avoid having your body parts chewed off by those on the list who insist on being righter than anyone else, please do. Thanks, Dirk Zahtilla ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net Interem Airport Manager, CXP Carson City, Nv. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2009
Anthony, >From your photos it looks like you have flex hinge ailerons not piano hinge ailerons, is this true? Attached is the Zenith drawing for the installation of the gussets. Does it match your drawings? I would contact Zenith before installing the gussets on a flex hinge. It was the piano hinge aileron design that was having the problems talked about in the paragraph above the drawings but the drawing shows a flex hinge installation. This could be a defensive move by Zenith. They can always point to the bulletin and say "See the drawing" this is what we recommended to be installed on all 601XL, and the service bulletin shows flex hinged ailerons. I don't know. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222208#222208 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/zenith_649.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2009
All, Excuse the file size of the photos, will adjust in the future. My 650 is equipped with the hinge-less ailerons and my current opinion is to follow the drawings guidance and that they are a good precaution regardless of hinge type. I just finished assembly of the right aileron, starting on the left after this post. Regards, Anthony PS: Reminder I'm building from 650 component kits, tail 95%, flaps done, ailerons in progress, corvair engine test ran complete. -------- Anthony Hanson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222213#222213 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Cooling
Date: Jan 01, 2009
A definition From the web: "A diffuser is a passage so shaped (usually in the form of a divergent duct) that it will change the characteristics of a fluid flow from a certain pressure and velocity at the inlet to a lower velocity and higher pressure at the outlet. Generally, the diffusion must be carried out in a well-streamlined passage having smooth interior surfaces, and sides not diverging at so great an angle as to cause the fluid to leave the sides of the diffuser. By reducing the velocity through increasing the cross- sectional area of flow, the pressure may be built up as the velocity head is diminished. Diffusers are used to conserve energy by efficiently converting velocity head into pressure." A divergent duct is simply a duct whose cross sectional area increases in the down stream direction. Because slower moving air remains in contact with the cooling fins for a longer period of time, it can soak up more heat from the engine to carry away. You still have to make sure the cooling exit duct is larger than the inlet duct and is located in a area of lower pressure. On Jan 1, 2009, at 1:45 PM, Dirk Zahtilla wrote: > Would you please explain what a defuser consists of and what you > mean by a divergent duct. I am interested in learning more on this > topic. > If you would rather email me direct to avoid having your body parts > chewed off by those on the list who insist on being righter than > anyone else, please do. > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2009
The problem is that your flex hinge was tested extensively by CH without the gussets. http://zenithair.com/images/kit-data/ht-aileron.html The gussets will create ripples/stress points along the attach line between the flex hinge portion of the aileron skin and the spar portion of the aileron skin. The .016 skin will be raised by .025 and then settle back down. The key to a flex hinge is the smoothness of the hinge. I would contact Zenith and ask them if the flex hinge aileron with gusset drawing is correct and/or tested. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222216#222216 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2009
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Cooling
Hi Dirk, There is a really great magazine article describing this new technology. Title: Cooling Drag. Page 106. EAA Sport Aviation. December 2007. Author Christopher Zavatson. I strongly recommend this article. I have read it a few times and keep it handy for reference. Good luck, Paul XL getting close At 10:45 AM 1/1/2009, you wrote: >Would you please explain what a defuser consists of and what you >mean by a divergent duct. I am interested in learning more on this topic. >If you would rather email me direct to avoid having your body parts >chewed off by those on the list who insist on being righter than >anyone else, please do. > >Thanks, >Dirk Zahtilla ideaz1(at)sbcglobal.net >Interem Airport Manager, CXP >Carson City, Nv. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2009
Sabrina, Good call, and the most conservative approach. Your logic is sound. Will hold off on the rivets until confirmation with ZAC. I'm getting high on self etching primer anyway:-) You veteran builders out there, thanks in advance, this new guy is a pilot only(Prior Piper Cherokee owner, and currently Army Kiowa Warrior Pilot) and am still learning the engineering know-how that so many of you exhibit. I'm a follow the plans/instructions, getter done kind of guy. Appreciate this gotcha advice and the future guidance to come. Anthony -------- Anthony Hanson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222228#222228 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2009
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
All; the control locks in the picture are mine, and they work well. As for the Gussett, just put them under the hingless sheet metal on all of the aileron rib points, should be fine. You really dont need them if the plane is kept well. I did not have issues with my aileron eccept it was hit last night by a 9mm bullet. go figure! right in the corner and went through the wing entirely. I spoke to the Airport guys and they said mine was not the only one and last year on new years, a cheetah was shot while landing. Welcome to the Jungle. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> >Sent: Jan 1, 2009 1:57 PM >To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions > > >Anthony, > >>From your photos it looks like you have flex hinge ailerons not piano hinge ailerons, is this true? > >Attached is the Zenith drawing for the installation of the gussets. Does it match your drawings? > >I would contact Zenith before installing the gussets on a flex hinge. It was the piano hinge aileron design that was having the problems talked about in the paragraph above the drawings but the drawing shows a flex hinge installation. > >This could be a defensive move by Zenith. They can always point to the bulletin and say "See the drawing" this is what we recommended to be installed on all 601XL, and the service bulletin shows flex hinged ailerons. I don't know. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222208#222208 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/zenith_649.pdf > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A.F.RUPP(at)att.net
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Sabrina and Nathan, Nathan if you do as your picture shows with the gusset under the "spar cap" and on top of the rib flange stress points are a non-issue. The CH drawing shows a flex skin aileron and the advice is to install on the 601. I think it is a worthwhile addition. I installed them on the external skin on my 601. As far as the control cables go I believe the KR has pulleys not fairleads. That makes cable tension easier to set and in straight lines. There is no way an aircraft should go through an annual without a dtailed inspection of the control cables including a tension check, binding, jumping a pulley, fraying and etc. I don't know of an A&P who would skip that. Al Rupp An A&P for many years. 601XL -------------- Original message from "Sabrina" : -------------- > The problem is that your flex hinge was tested extensively by CH without the gussets. > The gussets will create ripples/stress points along the attach line between the flex hinge portion of the aileron skin and the spar portion of the aileron skin. The .016 skin will be raised by .025 and then settle back down. The key to a flex hinge is the smoothness of the hinge. I would contact Zenith and ask them if the flex hinge aileron with gusset drawing is correct and/or tested. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2009
Maybe joggle the ribs to give room for the .025 gusset? Check with Zenith... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222273#222273 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2009
From: burbby <burbby(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Canopy Latch
It is my understanding that the canopy latch system has been changed.-- I have been looking for the DWG that will reflect this new latching system with no success.--- Does anyone have a DWG number or a DWG that I ma y see in order to checkout what parts I need to change mine to the newer st yle latch. - Thanks Gary Bassham Zodiac CH601XL (N7601) reserved S/N-- 6-6203 Millsap, TX=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Canopy Latch
From: "Darryl Legg" <dlegg(at)tpg.com.au>
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Hi Gary, Attached are plans sent to me from Zenith, hope these help. Darryl. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222332#222332 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_for_xl_125.pdf http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_193.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net>
Subject: XL V-speeds
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Gang: I have completed some testing on my 190 (3.1L) Corvair-powered XL taildragger and have some V-speed numbers to report. These were taken with the wheel pants on, but no intersection fairings. Tests were done around 4000' DA, at a weight near to 1120#. My plane has an empty weight of ~790#. It seems that the large, relatively thick wing gives very tightly grouped V-speeds more like a Cub than an RV. Note that the deck angles for V_x and V_y are quite high (> 20=B0) and uncomfortable to maintain. I tend to use 90-100 MIAS for normal operations climbs, which still gives plenty of climb rate. Note that response curves are also very tight, and the performance falls off very rapidly, even just a few MPH from these speeds, so airspeed control would be *very* important in an engine-out situation. Also note that control authority, and therefore also trim response, is very dependent on power setting at all airspeeds. It is not possible in my plane to trim off the elevator at low glide speeds with the power off, but the stick loads are light. It is possible to trim off the low climb speeds. Anyway here you are: V_md (minimum descent rate) = 68 MIAS V_bg (best glide ratio) = 70 MIAS V_x (best climb angle) = 72 MIAS V_y (best climb rate) = 74 MIAS FWIW, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Did I miss something? Is there some sort of bulletin recommending this change for the 601XL? I looked on the Zenith website and could not find anything, and I have the latest set of 601XL plans which do not show these gussets. Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> Anthony, >From your photos it looks like you have flex hinge ailerons not piano hinge ailerons, is this true? Attached is the Zenith drawing for the installation of the gussets. Does it match your drawings? I would contact Zenith before installing the gussets on a flex hinge. It was the piano hinge aileron design that was having the problems talked about in the paragraph above the drawings but the drawing shows a flex hinge installation. This could be a defensive move by Zenith. They can always point to the bulletin and say "See the drawing" this is what we recommended to be installed on all 601XL, and the service bulletin shows flex hinged ailerons. I don't know. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rsteele(at)rjsit.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
Date: Jan 02, 2009
These changes are on the 650 plans. People are talking about back fitting to the 601. Same wing, just a couple of different details. Ron -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net> Date: Fri, January 02, 2009 12:55 pm Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions Did I miss something? Is there some sort of bulletin recommending this change for the 601XL? I looked on the Zenith website and could not find anything, and I have the latest set of 601XL plans which do not show these gussets. Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> Anthony, >From your photos it looks like you have flex hinge ailerons not piano hinge ailerons, is this true? Attached is the Zenith drawing for the installation of the gussets. Does it match your drawings? I would contact Zenith before installing the gussets on a flex hinge. It was the piano hinge aileron design that was having the problems talked about in the paragraph above the drawings but the drawing shows a flex hinge installation. This could be a defensive move by Zenith. They can always point to the bulletin and say "See the drawing" this is what we recommended to be installed on all 601XL, and the service bulletin shows flex hinged ailerons. I don't know. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Ron, Do the 650 plans show the gussets on both the PH and flex hinge ailerons? Could you post the PH aileron gusset drawing? Did Zenith push any particular aileron type when you purchased your kit/plans? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222425#222425 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2009
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: XL V-speeds
Dr. Elliott If in power off the plane should trim at best glide automatically at 70 mph. most planes will as mine does. IN an emergency you should be able to trim all the trimm to full up, and focus on correcting the problem. Are you saying yours does not trim to Vx or Vb? (should be the same) I have on mine with 750 lb empty weight, Vx 52 mph, Vy 71 mph. Vy equals Best glide. 71 mph. stall no flap is 48. Best glide should be 1.30x Vx or 52x1.30= 68 mph. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net> >Sent: Jan 2, 2009 1:32 PM >To: Zenith-List Digest Server >Subject: Zenith-List: XL V-speeds > >Gang: > >I have completed some testing on my 190 (3.1L) Corvair-powered XL taildragger and have some V-speed numbers to report. These were taken with the wheel pants on, but no intersection fairings. Tests were done around 4000' DA, at a weight near to 1120#. My plane has an empty weight of ~790#. > >It seems that the large, relatively thick wing gives very tightly grouped V-speeds more like a Cub than an RV. Note that the deck angles for V_x and V_y are quite high (> 20) and uncomfortable to maintain. I tend to use 90-100 MIAS for normal operations climbs, which still gives plenty of climb rate. Note that response curves are also very tight, and the performance falls off very rapidly, even just a few MPH from these speeds, so airspeed control would be *very* important in an engine-out situation. > >Also note that control authority, and therefore also trim response, is very dependent on power setting at all airspeeds. It is not possible in my plane to trim off the elevator at low glide speeds with the power off, but the stick loads are light. It is possible to trim off the low climb speeds. Anyway here you are: > >V_md (minimum descent rate) = 68 MIAS >V_bg (best glide ratio) = 70 MIAS > >V_x (best climb angle) = 72 MIAS >V_y (best climb rate) = 74 MIAS > >FWIW, >Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ >N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2009
From: Tim Shankland <tshankland(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Canopy Latch
I have my 601HD built and flying for the past two years, but I was interested in the new latching system. I made an XL type latch for my plane and have had excellent results with it. During the test phase before I determined the best way to guarantee latching twice I had the passenger side pop to the first latched position on one occasion I was able to reach over and pull the latch down on the other I just landed ( it came loose on takeoff) to secure it. I have some concerns with the new design. as I interpret it the two latches a fastened rigidly together so that it one latch is pushed back the other will follow. With this setup if one side comes loose and you attempt to latch it it will release the other side, not a good situation. I think a simple modification would fix this. Part 65C5-4 on each side should have one end slotted and there should be two springs one on each latch.. In this way the center lever will open both latches one one latch cannot force the other open. This is just my observation in that I have no intention changing my working system although I like not having the cable assemblies in the canopy. Tim Shankland 601HD N706TS Darryl Legg wrote: > >Hi Gary, >Attached are plans sent to me from Zenith, hope these help. >Darryl. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222332#222332 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_for_xl_125.pdf >http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_193.pdf > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jon Croke" <Jon(at)joncroke.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset QuestionsDave, The "bulletins" are published for download at www.zenair.org Also, they will be included in the next issue of the zenair newsletter (hardcopy being mailed in 2 weeks) along with some great DVD videos of more builders/pilots! Everybody: keep em coming! We all love to watch! Jon editor ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave VanLanen To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions Did I miss something? Is there some sort of bulletin recommending this change for the 601XL? I looked on the Zenith website and could not find anything, and I have the latest set of 601XL plans which do not show these gussets. Thanks, Dave Van Lanen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2009
From: "Darrell Haas" <darrellhaas(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 601xl
The weather out west here has given a lot of builder time however, I unfortunately, need to postpone my building days and put my kit components for sale. Here is the list of things that I have: Zenith Price My price Fuselage kit - $4725.00 3550.00 Dual stick control option kit - $485.00 360.00 Tail kit $1495.00 minus $375 for rudder 840.00 Control kit $925.00 695.00 Zenith charged for Crating and handling $345.00 Free Drawings and Manual + Cd's 395.00 290.00 Metalworking with rudder workshop DVD 49.00 Free ________ Building your Zenith Fuselage Part 1 and 2 DVD 49.00 Free total $8,468.00 Total 5735.00 This price does not consider Zenith's handling and crating cost. Buyer will need to be responsible for shipping but I will crate up and deliver to your shipper for free.I would prefer to sell it all as one package and not split up the kits. Thank you, Darrell Haas ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2009
From: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
The 650 plans are more-or-less like the 601 plans. The drawings show the hingeless version, with the hinged in the back on an "options" page. Gussets are shown on both pages. The hingeless are attached to the rear spar with A5/pitch 40 with A5/pitch 20 at the inboard end. I'd have to scan the drawings to post an image. Since Jon is going to include them in the news letter, hopefully folks can wait. My ailerons have have been build for months. I don't think I'll be drilling out the rivets to add the gussets. Also, someone mentioned a concern about the thickness of the gusset offsetting the skin (true enough) but this is not addressed in the drawings, so presumably it's not considered a problem. Ron On Jan 2, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Sabrina wrote: > > Ron, > > Do the 650 plans show the gussets on both the PH and flex hinge > ailerons? > > Could you post the PH aileron gusset drawing? > > Did Zenith push any particular aileron type when you purchased your > kit/plans? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222425#222425 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Ron, Zenith has not issued a bulletin showing the PH aileron gussets, just the flex hinge, so there is nothing more for Jon to post at this time. If you have time, please scan the particular PH drawing with the gussets attached, no need for all the other drawings on the plans page. Do you have PH or flex hinge ailerons? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222480#222480 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2009
From: burbby <burbby(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Canopy Latch
Thanks Darryl for the information.- - Gary Bassham --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Darryl Legg wrote: From: Darryl Legg <dlegg(at)tpg.com.au> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Latch Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 3:14 AM Hi Gary, Attached are plans sent to me from Zenith, hope these help. Darryl. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222332#222332 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_for_xl_125.pdf http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_193.pdf =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions.
Hello Ron, - I dont think that drilling out a few rivets is a big deal,- is part of th e "fun" of learning to build our airplanes...- :-)--- Also, this mod is a easy one, I dont see any reason why not to install them .-- I sure would see the way to install them,-up tp the point if I ha d my airplane already flying.- Fortunate we are starting to assemble the wings. - Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. - --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Ronald Steele wrote: From: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 7:23 PM The 650 plans are more-or-less like the 601 plans. The drawings show the hingeless version, with the hinged in the back on an "options" page. Gussets are shown on both pages. The hingeless are attached to the rear sp ar with A5/pitch 40 with A5/pitch 20 at the inboard end. I'd have to scan the drawings to post an image. Since Jon is going to include them in the news letter, hopefully folks can wait. My ailerons have have been build for months. I don't think I'll be drilling out the rivets to add the gussets. Also, someone mentioned a conc ern about the thickness of the gusset offsetting the skin (true enough) but thi s is not addressed in the drawings, so presumably it's not considered a problem. Ron On Jan 2, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Sabrina wrote: > > Ron, > > Do the 650 plans show the gussets on both the PH and flex hinge ailerons? > > Could you post the PH aileron gusset drawing? > > Did Zenith push any particular aileron type when you purchased your kit/plans? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222425#222425 > > > > > > > > > > > =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions.
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Hey gang, Keep in mind the purpose of this gusset modification.? It is to safeguard ailerons when the airplane is tied down outside and no control stops are used.? If at any time your airplane is parked outside and you use control stops, this modification is unnecessary. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 11:41 am Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions. Hello Ron, ? I dont think that drilling out a few rivets is a big deal,? is part of the "fun" of learning to build our airplanes...? :-)??? Also, this mod is a easy one, I dont see any reason why not to install them.?? I sure would see the way to install them,?up tp the point if I had my airplane already flying.? Fortunate we are starting to assemble the wings. ? Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. ? --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Ronald Steele wrote: From: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 7:23 PM The 650 plans are more-or-less like the 601 plans. The drawings show the hingeless version, with the hinged in the back on an "options" page. Gussets are shown on both pages. The hingeless are attached to the rear spar with A5/pitch 40 with A5/pitch 20 at the inboard end. I'd have to scan the drawings to post an image. Since Jon is going to include them in the news letter, hopefully folks can wait. My ailerons have have been build for months. I don't think I'll be drilling out the rivets to add the gussets. Also, someone mentioned a concern about the thickness of the gusset offsetting the skin (true enough) but this is not addressed in the drawings, so presumably it's not considered a problem. Ron On Jan 2, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Sabrina wrote: > > Ron, > > Do the 650 plans show the gussets on both the PH and flex hinge ailerons? > > Could you post the PH aileron gusset drawing? > > Did Zenith push any particular aileron type when you purchased your kit/plans? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222425#222425 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 03, 2009
It's the "new guy" again, In the middle of measuring out the cutouts for the aileron trim tab. There are no directions to go by, just the plans for the option. Having assembled the elevator trim tab, is the aileron install basically the same operation? Requesting any lessons learned out there, I read the past posts about the 25deg up and down issue. Any others? Best Regards, Anthony -------- Anthony Hanson Ft.Bragg, NC Kiowa Warrior Pilot Building ZenVair650 from Nov'08 ZAC 650 kit, tail 95%, Flaps Done, Working on Ailerons, Engine test ran. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222603#222603 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions.
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Jay, Both Alex and mine flexed in flight, they were PH. The bulletin only "presumes" that the cause is ground tie down without gust locks with gusting conditions from the rear or side. Neither of ours were flexed this way. I don't know of a single flex hinge that kinked when left outside. If you are correct and the flex hinge bulletin showing retro fitting of the gussets are required for tie down outside conditions only, tell me how those gussets will prevent the flex hinge from kinking? They do not reinforce the portion that kinks on a flex hinge (they do on a PH.) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222612#222612 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions.
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Sabrina, Sorry, but you are jumping on the wrong guy.? I can't respond, 'cause I didn't design or issue the change.? I am not "presuming" anything. I am merely repeating what I have read. Jay -----Original Message----- From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> Sent: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 12:50 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions. Jay, Both Alex and mine flexed in flight, they were PH. The bulletin only "presumes" that the cause is ground tie down without gust locks with gusting conditions from the rear or side. Neither of ours were flexed this way. I don't know of a single flex hinge that kinked when left outside. If you are correct and the flex hinge bulletin showing retro fitting of the gussets are required for tie down outside conditions only, tell me how those gussets will prevent the flex hinge from kinking? They do not reinforce the portion that kinks on a flex hinge (they do on a PH.) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222612#222612 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Fulmer" <rfulmer1(at)triad.rr.com>
Subject: Re: 601xl
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Hi Darrel: Sorry to hear you're stopping your build. If, indeed, you are firm on this decision and are set on selling your components I would very much like to buy the Control Kit - offered at 695 - should you choose to split up the package and/or not get a buyer for all of it together. I'm a plans builder and welding thin wall tubes are not my "long suit". Please advise when you make up your mind on this issue. Regards Bob Fulmer ----- Original Message ----- From: Darrell Haas To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 6:15 PM Subject: Zenith-List: 601xl The weather out west here has given a lot of builder time however, I unfortunately, need to postpone my building days and put my kit components for sale. Here is the list of things that I have: Zenith Price My price Fuselage kit - $4725.00 3550.00 Dual stick control option kit - $485.00 360.00 Tail kit $1495.00 minus $375 for rudder 840.00 Control kit $925.00 695.00 Zenith charged for Crating and handling $345.00 Free Drawings and Manual + Cd's 395.00 290.00 Metalworking with rudder workshop DVD 49.00 Free ________ Building your Zenith Fuselage Part 1 and 2 DVD 49.00 Free total $8,468.00 Total 5735.00 This price does not consider Zenith's handling and crating cost. Buyer will need to be responsible for shipping but I will crate up and deliver to your shipper for free.I would prefer to sell it all as one package and not split up the kits. Thank you, Darrell Haas ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions.
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Date: Jan 03, 2009
I may be the only one of the list now who has not flown their aircraft, yet sends others into the air after a fatal crash. It is one thing to put yourself in a craft, another to put someone else. The past year has been more than I bargained for, but very educational. The more I learn about the 601XL the more I find out that countless modification were made. Some from CZAW, some form CH. I recently approached Zenith for a new set of flex ailerons. I was quoted over $300. I did not see the new gussets included in the quote. I can't imagine how the flex hinge benefits from the new gussets. In fact, if installed incorrectly, could shorten the life of the flex hinge. The piano hinge gusset is another story. I designed my gussets in Q1 2008. Zenith later made a similar change but did not swap out the inboard aft aileron A4 attach rivets with AS5 rivets. We should all have two extra AS5s laying around. The flexing of the piano hinge aileron as described in the Zenair bulletin, whether it be on the ground or in flight, can put great tension on the inboard aft attach A4 rivet. If that rivet fails in tension in flight, the others are at risk. It is very easy to translate 100+ pounds of force through the stick to the aileron without flutter playing a part. I suspect that some of the fatal crashes may have started with the control stick: The flying and/or control surface being flown or forced off the aircraft with control stick input. Although many don't want to open their ailerons up for installation of the gussets, what harm could installing a single AS5 at the inboard aft attach point on each piano hinge aileron do? What benefits do you see? What is the rated strength of an A4 in shear and tension? Plus or minus what? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222625#222625 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions.
From: "sdthatcher" <s_thatcher(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Hi Sabrina, Do you feel that because of the relative stiffness of the FH over the PH, that is the reason for not adding the gussets to the FH design? I'm asking since I have the FH. I had my 601XL tied down overnight in Ocala last October, and after getting back in the air en route to NC, I noticed that there was considerable slack in the aileron cables. (I did not use any gust locks even though it was very gusty). Also, the line people had tied down the 601 using considerable force to keep it from moving in the gusts. Do you think there might be any relationship between gust loads on the aileron & tie down loads that could result in possible slackening of cables? BTW, saw your website and your aircraft is beautiful! I hope those 40 hours are being flown off quickly so you can get in the air... or do you have a different set of rules since it is a manufactured aircraft from your company? Sabrina wrote: > I may be the only one of the list now who has not flown their aircraft, yet sends others into the air after a fatal crash. It is one thing to put yourself in a craft, another to put someone else. The past year has been more than I bargained for, but very educational. > > The more I learn about the 601XL the more I find out that countless modification were made. Some from CZAW, some form CH. > > I recently approached Zenith for a new set of flex ailerons. I was quoted over $300. I did not see the new gussets included in the quote. > > I can't imagine how the flex hinge benefits from the new gussets. In fact, if installed incorrectly, could shorten the life of the flex hinge. > > The piano hinge gusset is another story. I designed my gussets in Q1 2008. Zenith later made a similar change but did not swap out the inboard aft aileron A4 attach rivets with AS5 rivets. > > We should all have two extra AS5s laying around. > > The flexing of the piano hinge aileron as described in the Zenair bulletin, whether it be on the ground or in flight, can put great tension on the inboard aft attach A4 rivet. If that rivet fails in tension in flight, the others are at risk. It is very easy to translate 100+ pounds of force through the stick to the aileron without flutter playing a part. I suspect that some of the fatal crashes may have started with the control stick: The flying and/or control surface being flown or forced off the aircraft with control stick input. > > Although many don't want to open their ailerons up for installation of the gussets, what harm could installing a single AS5 at the inboard aft attach point on each piano hinge aileron do? > > What benefits do you see? > > What is the rated strength of an A4 in shear and tension? Plus or minus what? -------- Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL 601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA N601EL, EAA203 25 hours and climbing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222651#222651 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
From: "sdthatcher" <s_thatcher(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Hi Anthony, >From another ZenVair owner, I felt it was about the same procedure for the aileron as the elevator. Gus Warren said that I should place a stiffener adjacent to the motor to keep the aileron from flexing, but it's much easier to do when building than after it's built. Gus, if you're on the list, can you elaborate? nosky2high wrote: > It's the "new guy" again, > > In the middle of measuring out the cutouts for the aileron trim tab. There are no directions to go by, just the plans for the option. Having assembled the elevator trim tab, is the aileron install basically the same operation? > > Requesting any lessons learned out there, I read the past posts about the 25deg up and down issue. Any others? > > Best Regards, > Anthony -------- Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL 601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA N601EL, EAA203 25 hours and climbing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222652#222652 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 03, 2009
The plans don't appear to be completely accurate, if you cut out the access panel hole as per the plans dimensions the cover plate will extend over the aileron spar bottom edge. I just shifted the access hole farther away from the spar by about 10mm farther than the plans called for. Too chicken to cut the metal though until I'm sure. Regarding the additional angle to support the trim motor, I'm not picturing the placement, requesting some further guidance on that. Will hold off all the cutting until I can get clarification. On to the wings. Anthony -------- Anthony Hanson Ft.Bragg, NC Kiowa Warrior Pilot Building ZenVair650 from Nov'08 ZAC 650 kit, tail 95%, Flaps Done, Working on Ailerons, Engine test ran. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222658#222658 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
Anthony You are right about the plans. The access hole is shown too close to the front edge of the aileron. If you put it there, there are conflicts, but I cannot recall the details. Your 10-mm sounds about right. I wouldn't shift the servo, just the access hole. Regarding the stiffeners, Mirko suggested them a while back. My understanding is for something like I've shown in the attached sketch, probably attached with A4's. The flanges of the angles fit underneath the servo. I plan to retrofit stiffeners eventually. I will probably cut the web on the angles (i.e., the vertical side) to 1/2 or 1/3 the standard width to lighten them. I believe that would be adequate. Terry >The plans don't appear to be completely accurate, if you cut out the >access panel hole as per the plans dimensions the cover plate will extend >over the aileron spar bottom edge. I just shifted the access hole farther >away from the spar by about 10mm farther than the plans called for. Too >chicken to cut the metal though until I'm sure. > >Regarding the additional angle to support the trim motor, I'm not >picturing the placement, requesting some further guidance on that. Will >hold off all the cutting until I can get clarification. > >On to the wings. > >Anthony > >-------- >Anthony Hanson Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Anthony, Be aware that there are left hand and right hand servos.? The ones that ZAC furnishes doesn't always agree with the drawings.? This can be very confusing since you are doing the mounting layout upside down.? Mine were opposite hand from what was shown on the drawings and I didn't figure it out until I had cut the access hole.? I had to cut an oversize hole and make a larger cover plate. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: nosky2high <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 4:35 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request The plans don't appear to be completely accurate, if you cut out the access panel hole as per the plans dimensions the cover plate will extend over the aileron spar bottom edge. I just shifted the access hole farther away from the spar by about 10mm farther than the plans called for. Too chicken to cut the metal though until I'm sure. Regarding the additional angle to support the trim motor, I'm not picturing the placement, requesting some further guidance on that. Will hold off all the cutting until I can get clarification. On to the wings. Anthony -------- Anthony Hanson Ft.Bragg, NC Kiowa Warrior Pilot Building ZenVair650 from Nov'08 ZAC 650 kit, tail 95%, Flaps Done, Working on Ailerons, Engine test ran. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222658#222658 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions.
thatcher; the cables are loose because they do loosen over time thus needing retensioning, say ever 100 hrs. Also you can tie down the plane as hard as you like. blowing around will be worse since it will jerk hard in a gust. the gust and tie down or dispositive of each other. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: sdthatcher <s_thatcher(at)bellsouth.net> >Sent: Jan 3, 2009 4:59 PM >To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions. > > >Hi Sabrina, > >Do you feel that because of the relative stiffness of the FH over the PH, that is the reason for not adding the gussets to the FH design? I'm asking since I have the FH. > >I had my 601XL tied down overnight in Ocala last October, and after getting back in the air en route to NC, I noticed that there was considerable slack in the aileron cables. (I did not use any gust locks even though it was very gusty). Also, the line people had tied down the 601 using considerable force to keep it from moving in the gusts. Do you think there might be any relationship between gust loads on the aileron & tie down loads that could result in possible slackening of cables? > >BTW, saw your website and your aircraft is beautiful! I hope those 40 hours are being flown off quickly so you can get in the air... or do you have a different set of rules since it is a manufactured aircraft from your company? > > >Sabrina wrote: >> I may be the only one of the list now who has not flown their aircraft, yet sends others into the air after a fatal crash. It is one thing to put yourself in a craft, another to put someone else. The past year has been more than I bargained for, but very educational. >> >> The more I learn about the 601XL the more I find out that countless modification were made. Some from CZAW, some form CH. >> >> I recently approached Zenith for a new set of flex ailerons. I was quoted over $300. I did not see the new gussets included in the quote. >> >> I can't imagine how the flex hinge benefits from the new gussets. In fact, if installed incorrectly, could shorten the life of the flex hinge. >> >> The piano hinge gusset is another story. I designed my gussets in Q1 2008. Zenith later made a similar change but did not swap out the inboard aft aileron A4 attach rivets with AS5 rivets. >> >> We should all have two extra AS5s laying around. >> >> The flexing of the piano hinge aileron as described in the Zenair bulletin, whether it be on the ground or in flight, can put great tension on the inboard aft attach A4 rivet. If that rivet fails in tension in flight, the others are at risk. It is very easy to translate 100+ pounds of force through the stick to the aileron without flutter playing a part. I suspect that some of the fatal crashes may have started with the control stick: The flying and/or control surface being flown or forced off the aircraft with control stick input. >> >> Although many don't want to open their ailerons up for installation of the gussets, what harm could installing a single AS5 at the inboard aft attach point on each piano hinge aileron do? >> >> What benefits do you see? >> >> What is the rated strength of an A4 in shear and tension? Plus or minus what? > > >-------- >Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL >601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA >N601EL, EAA203 25 hours and climbing. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222651#222651 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Looks like I'm going to start over from the Tab cutout measurements, then from the center measure the rod distance to get the location of the servo. From there locate the L angle braces, then once the servo is set, cut the access panel in the bottom. Question for the long term maintainers out there, is there a "best" side of the servo to put the access hole? over the clevis, over the wires, or just basically centered over the servo itself? seems that perhaps it would be advantageous to cheat the access over the side of the clevis and the wiring for easier clevis adjustments and any wiring issues. Had a big bummer today, only got one 12' rear spar, how in the h&^K did they forget that? I inventoried everything else upon delivery focusing on the smaller parts mainly and just couldn't imagine that they'd forget the second rear spar so I didn't cut the packing paper off until today. Any issues with ZAC on getting parts they failed to ship? Blue Skies, Anthony -------- Anthony Hanson Ft.Bragg, NC Kiowa Warrior Pilot Building ZenVair650 from Nov'08 ZAC 650 kit, tail 95%, Flaps Done, Working on Ailerons, Engine test ran. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222719#222719 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
From: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jan 03, 2009
nosky2high wrote: > It's the "new guy" again, > > In the middle of measuring out the cutouts for the aileron trim tab. There are no directions to go by, just the plans for the option. Having assembled the elevator trim tab, is the aileron install basically the same operation? > > Requesting any lessons learned out there, I read the past posts about the 25deg up and down issue. Any others? > > Best Regards, > Anthony Capt'nPurple, I don't know if this helps, but here is what I did when I scratch built mine. http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=1683&log=19488&row=407 -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222726#222726 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: Leo Gates <leo(at)zuehlfield.com>
Subject: Any issues with ZAC on getting parts they failed to ship?
I was short two parts. ZAC promptly shipped both - no charge. Leo Gates N601Z Had a big bummer today, only got one 12' rear spar, how in the h&^K did they forget that? Any issues with ZAC on getting parts they failed to ship? Blue Skies, Anthony ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net>
Subject: Molex crimping
Date: Jan 03, 2009
All- My Icom A200 has a main connector with dozens of Molex connectors that have to be crimped. I think the crimps can be done with those provided in a standard wire stripper, then soldered. True/False? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SABorns(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Subject: Re: Molex crimping
Bill, Yes, Molex pins can be crimped by hand and then soldered, however there is a special tool for the purpose that "folds" the ears down first on the wire and then a second crimp to secure the wire. When using the tool no soldering is necessary. It is preferable from a fatigue standpoint to install the pins without soldering. Steve CH701 Steven Bornstein 475 E. North Broadway Columbus, Ohio 43214 614 263-5819 In a message dated 1/3/2009 10:35:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naumuk(at)alltel.net writes: All- My Icom A200 has a main connector with dozens of Molex connectors that have to be crimped. I think the crimps can be done with those provided in a standard wire stripper, then soldered. True/False? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Stay up-to-date on the latest news - from fashion trends to celebrity break-ups and everything in between. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Molex crimping
Hi Bill, It is considered better to crimp the connectors with the appropriate tool rather than soldering them. While solder will, indeed, hold the wires in place there are issues with vibration and wire breakage. My advice to you is to spring for the crimper and do it right. You can locate the appropriate crimper at most electronics distributors or by looking at the Molex web site. Paul XL getting close At 07:34 PM 1/3/2009, you wrote: >All- > My Icom A200 has a main connector with dozens of Molex > connectors that have to be crimped. I think the crimps can be done > with those provided in a standard wire stripper, then soldered. True/False? >Bill Naumuk >Townville, Pa. >HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: Bill Pagan <pdn8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Molex crimping
Hey Bill, - Don't know what you mean by "standard wire stripper" but don't use the type of wire crimper you find at the local auto parts store.- also, don't sol der and crimp.- Get a good set of crimpers from someplace that knows avia tion systems such at B & C Specialty.- Here's their website. http://www.b andcspecialty.com/- It'll make the job much easier and give you tremendou s peace of mind. Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395 601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES) --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Bill Naumuk wrote: From: Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)alltel.net> Subject: Zenith-List: Molex crimping Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 10:34 PM All- --- My Icom A200 has a main connector with dozens of Molex connectors that have to be crimped. I think the crimps can be done with those provide d-in a standard wire stripper, then soldered.-True/False? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: jlatimer1(at)cox.net
Subject: Molex crimping
Bill, Try this site: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/matenlok/matenlok.html Someone has already sent you to B&C for the tool. Jerry On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 9:23 PM , Bill Naumuk wrote: > All- > My Icom A200 has a main connector with dozens of Molex connectors > that have to be crimped. I think the crimps can be done with those > provided in a standard wire stripper, then soldered. True/False? > Bill Naumuk > Townville, Pa. > HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SABorns(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Subject: Re: Molex crimping (Link to Tool)
Link to Molex tool: ArcticMOD Molex & ATX Pin Crimping Tool at ArcticMOD.com Steven Bornstein 475 E. North Broadway Columbus, Ohio 43214 614 263-5819 In a message dated 1/3/2009 11:16:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pdn8r(at)yahoo.com writes: Hey Bill, Don't know what you mean by "standard wire stripper" but don't use the type of wire crimper you find at the local auto parts store. also, don't solder and crimp. Get a good set of crimpers from someplace that knows aviation systems such at B & C Specialty. Here's their website. _http://www.bandcspecialty.com/_ (http://www.bandcspecialty.com/) It'll make the job much easier and give you tremendous peace of mind. Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395 601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES) --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Bill Naumuk wrote: From: Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)alltel.net> Subject: Zenith-List: Molex crimping Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 10:34 PM All- My Icom A200 has a main connector with dozens of Molex connectors that have to be crimped. I think the crimps can be done with those provided in a standard wire stripper, then soldered. True/False? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ======== (mip://03197b18/3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List") ======== (mip://03197b18/3D"http://forums.matronics.com") ======== (mip://03197b18/3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution") ======== **************Stay up-to-date on the latest news - from fashion trends to celebrity break-ups and everything in between. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wahoo! Touch & Go's
From: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas(at)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Last weekend the sun came out and the Nebraska winds died down so I went out to my hangar in Wahoo, Nebraska to log some time in my 601XL. I didn't really have anywhere to go so I did a bunch of landings and pattern-flying. Here is a video I made that I hope will encourage a builder or two to keep building: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4a-hdE1SGc I miss building but this flying is a hoot. Scott Laughlin 601XL/Corvair Finished & Flying 120 hours http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222750#222750 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2009
From: "Iberplanes IGL" <iberplanes(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
Hello Anthony,. I=B4m in the same part as you are, I guess you=B4re right, installation sh ould be like the aileron trim tab. I=B4ve bought an Olpha knife and I expect to cut the aluminum as shown on the homebuilthelp videos. Bye, Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Ordered Engine: Jabiru 3300 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2009
From: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: Molex crimping
Bill, I had problems with soldered connectors in my A200 and after a protracted effort, a repairman had to crimp the pieces to get the good contact that was needed. *June 6* After a search of the Matronics page, the Aero Electric connection, a comment on poor contact between the edge connector and pins used on the ICOM A200 was found. I went to the airport and wiggled each individual wire and found the M and 11 power input wires adjacent to each other would cause erratic variation in volume. The radio was removed and then the two pins were carefully removed. The tabs were spread and the pins were carefully reinserted. Then the volume had to be lowered on traffic reporting at a 100 miles out even with the hanger door still down. Wiggling the wires still cause the signal to vary considerably, but the problem is identified and now only requires a solution. Molex edge card connector p/n 09-50-6155 and pins p/n 08-03-0303 will be ordered from Mouser Electronics tomorrow by phone. Thanks again to the Matronics subscribers. *June 7* Pins and connector were ordered from Mouser and my insurance was bound with AIG shortly after. A 3-piece set of 6-ft static-ground wires with gator ends was made to allow refueling on a regular gas basis. The Illinois Department of Aeronautics Registry was called and forms were requested to get the airplane sticker needed to show compliance with the state user tax. Out at the hangar, the radio was again pulled and pins were adjusted outward with better results, but 30 new pins and connector pre-wired and glued in place may be in order. There's just too much play in pin position with the radio in to fly without fixing this. Tomorrow, Tim will take a look and hopefully adjust the side tone and possibly offer suggestions. *June 8* On this semi-rainy morning the aircraft was open and accessible at 9:00 a.m. Tim arrived and after checking out the contacts, wires and intercom, he soon resolved that the radio problems are with my connector, some incorrect shielding and the manner in which I soldered the pins. He removed two screws holding the connector using a foot long screwdriver and pushed it out from the inside to gain more direct access to pins while remaining connected. He determined another less abused connector was needed. I closed the hangar, had lunch with the guys at the Lucky 8 and visited Warren electric without success. Then I called ICOM parts and was able to order one in stock from them. Now we wait for one in the mail from ICOM and one backordered from Mouser Electronics to see which gets here first. Thirty pins are already on their way from Mouser. *June 9* It rained on and off today. The ground wires that FAA inspector wanted tie-tied off were finally secured. A standard oil filler neck from my spare EA-81 was compared to the customized Stratus design. One could conclude that the filler should be turned toward the other side proximate to the dipstick so that the access door would suffice for both checking and adding oil. It doesn't seem it would be a lot of work to remake the tube to get it there. Tim was unable to get the external snap ring off the 90-degree coax fitting inside the radio case, so I made a tool for reaching it like Tim's so it might be out before we resume. *June 14* With thunder and rain this morning, the hangar door was opened and there was enough light to remove the new oil filler tube and reassemble it with a proper amount of gasket sealer. The short 40-degree off angle 6mm Allen wrench was cut to 5/8" and the other end was bent as well as twisted by the width of one flat. This made it possible to tighten the nearly inaccessible bolt in short increments alternating ends. Tim arrived after noon and began cutting wires from the old connector and putting proper crimps to new pins and snapping each in place one by one into the new connector. I was humbled as I watched him crimp the pins so perfectly. I had incorrectly assumed they could be crimped and soldered, but they just don't fit well in the connector as a soldered pin. Within an hour or more, the radio was slid in and a radio check to ground control was very clear both ways in both headsets. Later in the evening, Lee and I visited the hangar to add a little insulating tape and some tie-ties to secure things again and the radio work was finally done. What a hassle! Recommend you crimp the pieces, not solder. Also, do this prior to installation of the connector and support tray. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Bill Naumuk wrote: > All- > My Icom A200 has a main connector with dozens of Molex connectors > that have to be crimped. I think the crimps can be done with those > provided in a standard wire stripper, then soldered. True/False? > Bill Naumuk > Townville, Pa. > HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
Subject: Engine Cooling
Date: Jan 04, 2009
List, many thanks to "Jeff" for the photos and directions for the dams in the Ram Air Cooling Ducts.( Jabiru 3300 ) i installed the dams on the 2 rear cylinders with only 1/8" clearance above the fins including the steel fins on the cylinder.i also continued thru the gap in the spark plugs to the outside edge of the duct. the temperature dropped from 335 ~ 340 to 265. UNBELIEVABLE. that is a 75 deg. drop. i was starting out with the dams too small. you can learn a lot from this list if you go with the ones that know. thanks again. bobby N131BP 73 hrs. and i didn't have to pull the cowl after this flight. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Elevator bias spring
Date: Jan 04, 2009
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Any suggestions on finding the details about the elevator bias spring -? CZAW drawing 6-BO-4CZ ? Jay in Dallas ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Self Leveling Laser Awesome Time Saver
From: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Hey guys, Got some part numbers to go with the ones you like? I stopped in the Big Orange store and there are way to many choices. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222826#222826 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Self Leveling Laser Awesome Time Saver
From: "Fly with Gus" <Gus(at)flywithgus.com>
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Mine is a Black & Decker BDL310S. a couple years old. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222828#222828 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Elevator bias spring
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Jay, remember, if you spring link the flap torque tube to the elevator horn to apply a pitch bias when the flaps are lowered you have to limit flap travel to 24 degrees. You can purchase the document from the LAA, I am told you would want to order the supplemental drawings for MOD-162B-002. To All: I am heading back to campus, and will be very busy again... I am sorry if I offended anyone with my zealous inquiries as of late. You guys are the best... I could not have built 86Q without you... BCNU (any yes, this post will disappear after I post it, it is my method of mass PMing you guys who subscribe to the e-mail forward service... ) To all my on line uncles and grandfathers: Happy New Year Love, Sabrina Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222829#222829 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Subject: William Wynne Parts for sale
I have some WW / Corvair parts for sale. I would like to sell it all together but will part out if no one wants it all. 1. John Deer alt and regulator 30 hrs on this unit. with WW Bracket $275.00 2. WW rear oil housing with new oil pump $150.00 3. WW engine Mount NEW $450.00 4. WW baffle kit NEW $200.00 5. 2 WW Oil Pans Used $150.00 each 6. WW One piece Nose Bowl New $300.00 7. WW front starter kit Used 30 hrs $300.00 Thanks, Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) www.aerolite.camstreams.com **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 04, 2009
See these attached photos of the top and bottom aileron skin measurements for the trim tab and motor. The plans call for 145mm from edge of trim tab cut out to the bottom row of holes in the servo, by my measurements 135mm is the better measurement due to interference with the aileron spar flange. Any others out there experiencing the same issue? I love pre-punched skins just wish they'd pre-punched out the trim tab like they do in the elevator. higher resolution photos available here; http://picasaweb.google.com/nosky2high/WingKitFlapsAilerons?feat=directlink if the attached downsized photos don't explain the situation well enough. phone call to ZAC tomorrow. Anthony -------- Anthony Hanson Ft.Bragg, NC Kiowa Warrior Pilot Building ZenVair650 from Nov'08 ZAC 650 kit, tail 95%, Flaps Done, Working on Ailerons, Engine test ran. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222857#222857 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_3272_large_262.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_3275_large_191.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2009
From: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions
On Jan 2, 2009, at 9:43 PM, Sabrina wrote: > > Ron, > > Zenith has not issued a bulletin showing the PH aileron gussets, > just the flex hinge, so there is nothing more for Jon to post at > this time. If you have time, please scan the particular PH drawing > with the gussets attached, no need for all the other drawings on the > plans page. > > Do you have PH or flex hinge ailerons? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222480#222480 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
From: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Anthony, Try transferring the flange line to the outside of the skin after you have the access hole cut. I think the servo needs to be close but not touching the flange, perhaps .5mm clearance. Make sure you have a straight line from the servo to the trim tab horn and it will work out. The wings aren't here otherwise I would give you some dimensions. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222872#222872 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "George Race" <mykitairplane(at)mrrace.com>
Subject: Chat Room Reminder
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Please join us for the Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM Eastern Time. http://www.m ykitairplane.com/chat/> http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/ George Do Not Archiv ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jason Bogli" <jboglilaw(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: William Wynne Parts for sale
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Hi Jeff: Id be interested in: the John Deere Alt/ reg. - dont need the bracket though. rear oil housing - was this rebuilt by WW ? oil pan - is this the light weight pan, or the older version ? Let me know. Jason Bogli The Law Office of Jason Bogli LLC 198R Salmon Brook Street Granby, CT 06035 860 653 7701 860 413 9342 www.jboglilaw.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 4:37 PM Subject: Zenith-List: William Wynne Parts for sale I have some WW / Corvair parts for sale. I would like to sell it all together but will part out if no one wants it all. 1. John Deer alt and regulator 30 hrs on this unit. with WW Bracket $275.00 2. WW rear oil housing with new oil pump $150.00 3. WW engine Mount NEW $450.00 4. WW baffle kit NEW $200.00 5. 2 WW Oil Pans Used $150.00 each 6. WW One piece Nose Bowl New $300.00 7. WW front starter kit Used 30 hrs $300.00 Thanks, Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com www.project601xl.com www.aerolite.camstreams.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- New year...new news. Be the fom00000026">headlines. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2009
From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: William Wynne Parts for sale
Hi, Jeff. Sorry I had to get off of the phone yesterday evening, my son was just leaving with his recruiter to head off for the Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego. Still have that big pit in my stomach, but it's what my kid has his heart set on. Semper Fi. I do have some questions about your pile of "experienced" parts, though. You mentioned that you thought the motor mount was off by 7/16". In what dimension? What did Ed say about it? What comes with the starter and alternator kits? Anything about the old-style welded oil pans that would make them unservicable? Or the oil pump and housing? Assuming that everything is jake, I'd be more than happy to relieve you of your excess inventory, providing we can agree on a figure that's worth it for you and a deal for me. ;-) Best, Rick -----Original Message----- >From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com >Sent: Jan 4, 2009 1:37 PM >To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: William Wynne Parts for sale > > >I have some WW / Corvair parts for sale. I would like to sell it all >together but will part out if no one wants it all. > >1. John Deer alt and regulator 30 hrs on this unit. with WW Bracket $275.00 > >2. WW rear oil housing with new oil pump $150.00 > >3. WW engine Mount NEW $450.00 > >4. WW baffle kit NEW $200.00 > >5. 2 WW Oil Pans Used $150.00 each > >6. WW One piece Nose Bowl New $300.00 > >7. WW front starter kit Used 30 hrs $300.00 > >Thanks, > >Jeff Garrett >Louisville Ky. >601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% >601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs >601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs >_www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) >_www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) >www.aerolite.camstreams.com >**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2009
From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>
Subject: How good is your eyeball?
Folks We all drill lots of holes and cut lots of parts. Here's a exercise to see how well you can eyeball those cuts: http://woodgears.ca/eyeball/ Terry no not archive Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request
Date: Jan 05, 2009
I had the same experience. It appears that the plans are incorrect. When I first asked ZAC about it, they suggested overlapping the spar flange with the servo, which I didn't think was a good idea, so I asked if I could move the servo rearward and they said that would work just fine. I moved the servo rearward until I had about 2mm to 3mm of clearnce from the aileron spar flange, and then went from there. Regards, Dave Van Lanen 601XL - tail done, flaps done, finishing ailerons Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Trim Tab Lessons Learned Request From: "nosky2high" <nosky2high(at)yahoo.com> See these attached photos of the top and bottom aileron skin measurements for the trim tab and motor. The plans call for 145mm from edge of trim tab cut out to the bottom row of holes in the servo, by my measurements 135mm is the better measurement due to interference with the aileron spar flange. Any others out there experiencing the same issue? I love pre-punched skins just wish they'd pre-punched out the trim tab like they do in the elevator. higher resolution photos available here; http://picasaweb.google.com/nosky2high/WingKitFlapsAilerons?feat=directlink if the attached downsized photos don't explain the situation well enough. phone call to ZAC tomorrow. Anthony ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Canopy / Rail Flush to Fusealge side
From: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Rich, My canopy rail is close to being flush to the fuselage sides all along it's length. Not exactly flush, but close. Wherever it is not flush, it overhangs slightly. The attached picture is the only one I could find that kind of shows the fit. This was accomplished by judicious bending of the frame. Without access to any kind of bending equipment, I used clamps, table corners and a bit of mallet hammering to coax it. Once I got the frame w/ tubes attached to sit where I wanted it, I placed the strikers to match. By the way, I had to shim the strikers up for the best latching spot. Good luck, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 First flight 7/24/08 Phase I flight test complete 10/16/08 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222972#222972 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuselage_431_109.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Subject: Re: William Wynne Parts for sale
Jason Can you give me a call so i can get your information and answer any questions you might have. Jeff 502-644-8123 **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: unrolling the canopy
From: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Jan 05, 2009
is it best to put the canopy out in the sun before unrolling it.? A few people have said theirs cracked as they unrolled them. Mine has been stored in the shed for 2 years. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223011#223011 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: unrolling the canopy
Date: Jan 05, 2009
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Chris, Do not even think about doing ANYTHING with the canopy bubble unless it is at LEAST 75 degF (24 degC).? The warmer, the better! Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: chris Sinfield <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au> Sent: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 2:59 pm Subject: Zenith-List: unrolling the canopy is it best to put the canopy out in the sun before unrolling it.? A few people have said theirs cracked as they unrolled them. Mine has been stored in the shed for 2 years. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223011#223011 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: unrolling the canopy
From: "Thruster87" <alania(at)optusnet.com.au>
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Hi Chris, I just put my canopy on with NO cracking so far and it had been sitting in the garage for 9 months rolled up.With day temps around the 25-30Deg in the Sydney area there should be no problems.I'm also looking at maybe using rubber grommet inserts as that is what was used on my Thruster TST with good results and it had no cracks around the holes after 5yrs. Cheers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223018#223018 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2009
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: unrolling the canopy
Hi Chris, One thing you do not want to do is expose your canopy to sun light. I understand it will fuse the protective film to the acrylic and you will need to probably buy a new canopy. Paul XL getting close At 12:59 PM 1/5/2009, you wrote: >is it best to put the canopy out in the sun before unrolling it.? A >few people have said theirs cracked as they unrolled them. Mine has >been stored in the shed for 2 years. >Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: unrolling the canopy
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Your working on a canopy in 25-30 degree weather??? Are you nuts? That thing will pop like a ballon,,,, oh wait, your in Sydney,,,that's on the Metric system, right? Ok, never mind (but you might still be nuts). Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thruster87 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:20 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: unrolling the canopy Hi Chris, I just put my canopy on with NO cracking so far and it had been sitting in the garage for 9 months rolled up.With day temps around the 25-30Deg in the Sydney area there should be no problems.I'm also looking at maybe using rubber grommet inserts as that is what was used on my Thruster TST with good results and it had no cracks around the holes after 5yrs. Cheers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223018#223018 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: unrolling the canopy
From: "Thruster87" <alania(at)optusnet.com.au>
Date: Jan 05, 2009
I keep forgetting some countries still use the OLD Imperial scale [For Queen/KING and Country].The issue should have been finalized back at the Boston Tea party Times and they drive on the wrong side of the street to boot as well !!!!!!!!! So whose NUTS? OH I forgot already!!!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223044#223044 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dingfelder" <ding(at)tbscc.com>
Subject: Re: unrolling the canopy
Date: Jan 05, 2009
A related thing that I learned while working with my canopy -- If you have protective canopy film that is difficult to remove, or excess rubber trim adhesive (before it fully cures) on your canopy, isopropyl alcohol dry gas on a very soft cotton rag will remove it with no effect on the plastic canopy. Lynn 601 XL / Corvair Flight Testing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: unrolling the canopy
Date: Jan 05, 2009
I guess that just shows ya how good Zeniths are, if your willing to pay shipping all the way to Australia to get parts... me, I live about 3 hours from the Zenith factory in Mexico, Missouri ,,,ya I know, green with jealousy you must all be right now down under !!! Gooday mates ( ya, I also watched crocodile Dundee 14 times...) Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thruster87 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 6:08 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: unrolling the canopy I keep forgetting some countries still use the OLD Imperial scale [For Queen/KING and Country].The issue should have been finalized back at the Boston Tea party Times and they drive on the wrong side of the street to boot as well !!!!!!!!! So whose NUTS? OH I forgot already!!!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223044#223044 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dingfelder" <ding(at)tbscc.com>
Subject: Unrolling the canopy
Date: Jan 05, 2009
> A related thing that I learned while working with my canopy -- > If you have protective canopy film that is difficult to remove, or excess > rubber trim adhesive (before it fully cures) on your canopy, isopropyl > alcohol dry gas on a very soft cotton rag will remove it with no effect on > the plastic canopy. > > Lynn 601 XL / Corvair Flight Testing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2009
From: Mike <rsq2424(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Possible almost finished XL for sale
For a variety of reasons, looks like I may want to put my almost finished 6 01XL up for sale. It's located in Southern California, and all I want to do is recover some of the money I've spent on it...not looking to profit. The fuselage is mostly done, instrument panel in place (steam gauges w/nav/VOR radio), Jabiru 3300 installed, prop partly installed. Actually, the only m ajor things left to do are balance the control surfaces, finish mounting th e prop/spinner, finish wiring the electrical system, and paint it. Not far from flying. To buy the major components now, you're looking at: XL kit (not quick-build): $16,000 Jab 3300 engine: $16,500 FWF kit:- $3,500 Instruments, radios, etc: $3,000 Total parts:- $39,000 To sell mine, the first $30K gets the whole thing. Serious inquiries only p lease; pics available. You would need to make your own arrangements to pick it up. Mike Fortunato rsq2424(at)yahoo.com =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lawrence Webber <lawrencewebber(at)HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: unrolling the canopy
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Hey Roger its not gooday its GDAY mates ahhruuu! Larry > From: hills(at)sunflower.com > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: unrolling the canopy > Date: Mon=2C 5 Jan 2009 19:45:29 -0600 > om> > > > I guess that just shows ya how good Zeniths are=2C if your willing to pay > shipping all the way to Australia to get parts... me=2C I live about 3 ho urs > from the Zenith factory in Mexico=2C Missouri =2C=2C=2Cya I know=2C green with > jealousy you must all be right now down under !!! > > Gooday mates > > ( ya=2C I also watched crocodile Dundee 14 times...) > > Roger > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thruster87 > Sent: Monday=2C January 05=2C 2009 6:08 PM > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: unrolling the canopy > > > I keep forgetting some countries still use the OLD Imperial scale [For > Queen/KING and Country].The issue should have been finalized back at the > Boston Tea party Times and they drive on the wrong side of the street to > boot as well !!!!!!!!! So whose NUTS? OH I forgot already!!!! > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223044#223044 > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ It=92s the same Hotmail=AE. If by =93same=94 you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad 1_122008 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Subject: Cell phones and flying
Gang I need to know at what altitude a cell phone will lose it's signal? I have a Sprint Internet card and wanted to broadcast via web cam my flight from Louisville to Florida live in the 601XL but I don't know if I will have a signal. I know I will lose signal over the mountains more than likely but it will auto reconnect when it finds it again. Thanks, Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) Do not archive **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: William Wynne Parts for sale
From: "lgingell" <lgingell@matrix-logic.com>
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Blimey, you had me worried. I though William had been 'parted out'! -------- Zodiac XL/Jab 3300 http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223148#223148 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
Thank you for that very informative post.... now can you answer the question? I never said I was going to use my cell phone but wanted to know when the signal will be lost. Maybe you can find me an as informative link that will answer my question. Jeff The use of cellular telephones in aircraft appears to be prohibited by FCC regulation: _http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm_ (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm) ____________________________________ From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:17:48 -0500 Subject: Zenith-List: Cell phones and flying Gang I need to know at what altitude a cell phone will lose it's signal? I have a Sprint Internet card and wanted to broadcast via web cam my flight from Louisville to Florida live in the 601XL but I don't know if I will have a signal. I know I will lose signal over the mountains more than likely but it will auto reconnect when it finds it again. Thanks, Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) Do not archive **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2009
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
> Thank you for that very informative post.... now can you answer the > question? I never said I was going to use my cell phone but wanted to know when the > signal will be lost. Maybe you can find me an as informative link that will > answer my question. If you're going to broadcast via web cam, you're going to be transmitting, and that's prohibited - for a VERY good reason: the cellphone network was not designed to handle cellphone transmitters in flight, and does not do it well. It causes an extremely heavy load on every cell site that can see your phone, and there are LOTS of them if you're at any altitude. It's a really bad idea. Don't even think about it. Record and upload later. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
Now that's what this list is for...... Thank you very much. If this works it will be cool to watch a live flight and if my wings fall off I'll be sure to let you know exactly what is happening all the way to the crash site. Jeff The following link says a tower has a service area of about 10 square miles. Using the area formula, r**2=10/pi. That implies a radius of about 9420 feet. Thus your slant range to the tower would need to be about 9420 feet. If there is a tower every mile that implies you could fly to about 7800 feet above the tower height. _http://www.mobiledia.com/guides/page1.html_ (http://www.mobiledia.com/guides/page1.html) ____________________________________ From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:06:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cell phones and flying Thank you for that very informative post.... now can you answer the question? I never said I was going to use my cell phone but wanted to know when the signal will be lost. Maybe you can find me an as informative link that will answer my question. Jeff The use of cellular telephones in aircraft appears to be prohibited by FCC regulation: _http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm_ (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm) ____________________________________ From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:17:48 -0500 Subject: Zenith-List: Cell phones and flying Gang I need to know at what altitude a cell phone will lose it's signal? I have a Sprint Internet card and wanted to broadcast via web cam my flight from Louisville to Florida live in the 601XL but I don't know if I will have a signal. I know I will lose signal over the mountains more than likely but it will auto reconnect when it finds it again. Thanks, Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) Do not archive **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2009
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
> The following link says a tower has a service area of about 10 square > miles. Using the area formula, r**2=10/pi. That implies a radius of > about 9420 feet. Thus your slant range to the tower would need to be > about 9420 feet. If there is a tower every mile that implies you could > fly to about 7800 feet above the tower height. > http://www.mobiledia.com/guides/page1.html That is only valid for a ground level station, and includes effects such as attenuation from trees and buildings and the curvature of the earth. A cell site can see a phone from much farther away if it's airborne. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2009
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
> Now that's what this list is for...... Thank you very much. If this works it > will be cool to watch a live flight and if my wings fall off I'll be sure to > let you know exactly what is happening all the way to the crash site. Don't forget to tell us about the fine from the FCC, too. They've been known to do that. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Corvair College # 13
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Corvair College # 13 is now less than 2 weeks away! For those of you that are in the Washington area, who are flying down commercial and are some what less than interested in trying to "carry on" your engine & parts; I am still willing to bring them down with me. There is no charge for this service, I am going that way anyway. :) I only say that because someone asked. :) you must however bring it to me before hand :) You can call me @ 1-866-606-4152 Or see my website for an address I will be busy in the shop so If I don't answer just leave a message & I will return your call during a break. -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223178#223178 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2009
From: "Dave Covert" <dave(at)algoa.net>
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
Here is a pretty good technical explanation of 'why not' from Wikipedia. The short version is that, while it will likely work, it is just as likely to cause other paying users of the cell system to suffer an increased number of dropped calls and chopped audio. Leaving a path of people looking at their cell phones wondering what happened to their call just so you can show hopefully boring in-flight video seems more than a little rude to both the cell company and fellow Americans. Might I suggest that you stream the video to hard disk and then use a free video editing package to make something for youTube? That way you can share the adventure without leaving a trail of illegal 'rf droppings' along your path. Dave pilot and ham radio operator The U.S. Federal Communications Commission<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Communications_Commission> currently prohibits the use of mobile telephones<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_phone> aboard *any* aircraft in flight. The reason given is that mobile phone systems depend on channel reuse, and operating a phone at altitude may violate the fundamental assumptions that allow channel reuse to work.[*citation needed <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*] Mobile telephones are intentionally designed with low power output. A tower is the center of a "cell" and due to attenuation with distance (inverse square law <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_square_law>) cell phone transmissions can usually be received only weakly by towers in adjacent cells, and not at all in cells farther away (non-adjacent cells). This allows the channel used by any given phone to be reused by other phones in non-adjacent cells. This principle allows tens or hundreds of thousands of people to use their phones at the same time in a given metropolitan area while using only a limited number of channels. Channel reuse works because from a mobile phone on the ground, there will only be one "closest" tower that can possibly use a particular group of frequencies, CDMA codes, or time slots. The software that manages the system assumes that the signal from a phone on a particular tower can, on other towers, only be "heard" at greatly reduced signal strength. The frequency, code, or time slot used by the phone can therefore be reused by other phones on other towers. In the old analog cell system a channel was simply a frequency pair; there were seven groups of 35 channels each, and no two adjacent cells used the same channel groups. Modern CDMA <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDMA> and TDMA <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDMA> systems are more complex: A channel in TDMA is a frequency pair and a time slot, and a channel in CDMA is a spread spectrum key, but the principle of channel reuse still applies. If a mobile phone is operated from an aircraft in flight above a city, this assumption is no longer valid, because the towers of many different cells may be about equidistant from the phone. Multiple towers might assume that the phone is under their control. The phone could be assigned a free channel by one tower, but could be heard on other towers using the same channel group, and the channel might already be in use on those towers. This could cause interference with existing calls. It is possible that the software controlling the towers could crash.[*citation needed<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed> *] Even if the software can cope with hearing the same phone on multiple, non-adjacent towers, the result at best is an overall decrease in the system's capacity. An additional concern is the output power of the mobile handset. Because the towers might be many miles below the aircraft, the phone might have to transmit at its maximum power to be received. This will increase the risk of interference with electronic equipment on the aircraft. To protect the integrity of the electronic control and navigation equipment aboard large airliners in commercial service, the use of cellphones designed for terrestrial service is forbidden. The FCC, however, did allocate spectrum in the 450 MHz and 800 MHz frequency bands for use by equipment designed and tested for safety for air-to-ground service, and these systems use widely separated ground stations. In the 450 MHz band, co-channel assignments are at least 497 miles apart, and in the 800 MHz band, only specific sites were authorized by the FCC. The 450 MHz service is limited to "general aviation" users (corporate jets mostly), while the 800 MHz spectrum can be used by airliners as well as general aviation. The 450 MHz is named AGRAS, while the 800 MHz service is under review following an auction of spectrum in 2006. On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Jay Maynard wrote: > > > The following link says a tower has a service area of about 10 square > > miles. Using the area formula, r**2=10/pi. That implies a radius of > > about 9420 feet. Thus your slant range to the tower would need to be > > about 9420 feet. If there is a tower every mile that implies you could > > fly to about 7800 feet above the tower height. > > http://www.mobiledia.com/guides/page1.html > > That is only valid for a ground level station, and includes effects such as > attenuation from trees and buildings and the curvature of the earth. A cell > site can see a phone from much farther away if it's airborne. > -- > Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net > Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) > AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CH-650 for X-plane?
From: "Rhino" <bsimmons(at)rainbowdata.com>
Date: Jan 06, 2009
It's pretty much the same airplane. Most of the changes are cosmetic and wouldn't affect flight simulator characteristics, except maybe the change in wing incidence. But a new sim design might very well have a chance of flying more like the real thing. -------- Bob Simmons CH 750!!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223196#223196 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
From: "rans6andrew" <andrewcattell(at)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Jan 06, 2009
the range to altitude will be very variable because the base station aerials will be optimised for coverage at ground level. They may be adjusted to give good coverage along roadways and railways but not for airways. Add to this the way that the power output and time delays of your handset is controlled by the signal strength seen at the ground station and this has a maximum rate of adjustment that limits the speed that the handset can move at to not much more than 100mph if directly approaching or leaving the ground station. The maximum range of handsets used to be around 30 miles but I guess that the cells are much smaller than this to allow more callers to make simultaneous calls per square mile than in the early days of the digital networks. -------- A good way through building a 601UL with 912UL. Still flying Rans S6 with 503. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223210#223210 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 06, 2009
I have accidentally left my cell phone (AT&T) in an aircraft and signal was lost about 3000 ft msl. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223222#223222 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: unrolling the canopy
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Sorry, it's my Kansas accent sounding through..GDAY. I would like to go down under someday, but my wife swears she will never set foot in Australia though, I guess the Jack Jumpers on TV spooked her. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lawrence Webber Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:51 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: unrolling the canopy Hey Roger its not gooday its GDAY mates ahhruuu! Larry > From: hills(at)sunflower.com > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: unrolling the canopy > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:45:29 -0600 > > > > I guess that just shows ya how good Zeniths are, if your willing to pay > shipping all the way to Australia to get parts... me, I live about 3 hours > from the Zenith factory in Mexico, Missouri ,,,ya I know, green with > jealousy you must all be right now down under !!! > > Gooday mates > > ( ya, I also watched crocodile Dundee 14 times...) > > Roger > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thruster87 > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 6:08 PM > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: unrolling the canopy > > > I keep forgetting some countries still use the OLD Imperial scale [For > Queen/KING and Country].The issue should have been finalized back at the > Boston Tea party Times and they drive on the wrong side of the street to > boot as well !!!!!!!!! So whose NUTS? OH I forgot already!!!! > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223044#223044 > > > > > > > > > < Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >======================= > > > _____ It's the same HotmailR. If by "same" you mean up to 70% faster. Get your account now. <http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_ 122008> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2009
From: Peter Chapman <pchap(at)primus.ca>
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
At 20:44 06-01-09, you wrote: >I understand the reasoning here. What I don't understand is how >this works in Europe and Canada, where it is legal to use cell >phones in planes while the Here's something from the Canadian Owners and Pilots Association from a few years ago: [my emphasis] >The April 20th, 2000 amendment to the AIP added paragraph COM 5.14, >encouraging cell phone use during radio communications failures in >aircraft. This lead your COPA staff to do some digging to find out >exactly what the rules are for using cell phones from aircraft in flight. >Industry Canada, who regulate the use of the radio spectrum in >Canada, indicated that there is no law prohibiting the use of cell >phones from aircraft in Canada. Their technical >representative did indicate that most airlines ban cell phone use >because of potential interference with the airliner's >avionics. [ed: There are also Transport Canada recommendations on >that matter.] There is also the potential for problems within the >cellular network, due the high altitude airborne cell phone hitting >several different network cells at one time. >In checking with one of the country's largest cell phone service >providers, they indicated that they have no rules prohibiting cell >phone use from airplanes. They also indicated that they have had no >problems with multiple cell "hits" from a single airborne phone >causing problems and were unaware that any airborne calls were being made. While it is encouraging, it doesn't rule out some adverse effect out of proportion to the number of airborne users, that the company wasn't aware of. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: unrolling the canopy
From: "Thruster87" <alania(at)optusnet.com.au>
Date: Jan 06, 2009
The only ant that size I have seen is the one a fell on going over a fence [that was 40yrs ago] and the bugger bit me so I retaliated by stomping it 6" under the ground and it still was moving around.We call them Bull Ants. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223279#223279 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
Lighten up Jay. The FAA reccemends carrying a cell phone as a backup communication method. John Read CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 In a message dated 1/6/2009 11:42:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jmaynard(at)conmicro.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard > The following link says a tower has a service area of about 10 square > miles. Using the area formula, r**2=10/pi. That implies a radius of > about 9420 feet. Thus your slant range to the tower would need to be > about 9420 feet. If there is a tower every mile that implies you could > fly to about 7800 feet above the tower height. > http://www.mobiledia.com/guides/page1.html That is only valid for a ground level station, and includes effects such as attenuation from trees and buildings and the curvature of the earth. A cell site can see a phone from much farther away if it's airborne. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml **************Stay up-to-date on the latest news - from fashion trends to celebrity break-ups and everything in between. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2009
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
> Lighten up Jay. The FAA reccemends carrying a cell phone as a backup > communication method. In an emergency? Sure, anything goes. Lost comm, especially when IFR, is an emergency. Under normal circumstances? No way. Just because it might be cool? Get real. Paul's postings this evening about the reasons why using a cellphone in flight is a Bad Idea are right on (as one would expect from someone who actually knows about the subject, deep down, from having designed the things). My cellphone, and that of my passenger, gets turned off before taxi, and stays off until after landing, not only because I want no part of that annoying buzz, but because it's the right thing to do. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Trying to stay out of this but::: One time I lost transmit but could receive ok on my radio. ATC asked and requested me to call them on my cell phone. Class "D" and thats what they wanted. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Maynard" <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:25 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cell phones and flying > >> Lighten up Jay. The FAA reccemends carrying a cell phone as a backup >> communication method. > > In an emergency? Sure, anything goes. Lost comm, especially when IFR, is > an > emergency. Under normal circumstances? No way. Just because it might be > cool? Get real. Paul's postings this evening about the reasons why using a > cellphone in flight is a Bad Idea are right on (as one would expect from > someone who actually knows about the subject, deep down, from having > designed the things). My cellphone, and that of my passenger, gets turned > off before taxi, and stays off until after landing, not only because I > want > no part of that annoying buzz, but because it's the right thing to do. > -- > Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net > Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) > AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2009
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying ------- Wire stripper
Hi Rich, Aircraft grade wires are particularly difficult to strip because of the "Bullet Proof" Tefzel insulation. I have found the same tools and techniques that work so well for lesser insulation materials work best for this stuff too. It just takes more practice and sharper edges to get it done well. I like using the cheapest wire stripper I own (and I have a lot of them) for normal wire stripping. This is a scissors like device with 4 sharp edges that meet at the same point. I put the wire in and twist the wire and tool a little to cut all the way around. A very sharp knife (utility or box cutter?) can work well for outer insulation on cables. For Coaxial cable I use a more expensive purpose built tool I got at Radio Shack. These cables are more challenging because the insulated cable length is critical for attaching the BNC connectors. Good luck, Paul XL getting close At 04:45 AM 1/7/2009, you wrote: >What is a descent wire stripper method or device for skinning >shielded wires. For kicks I skinned about a half inch with a knife >and the sheild wires are very fine. Half of them were cut as well! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2009
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Internet and flying
> I will have a cell phone with me that will be OFF but I have a Sprint Wi Fi > card that is for Internet use only that I will be using.... If it's truly WiFi, then there's no problem. If it's a Sprint data card, though, it's just a cellphone that's only usable for data, and is subject to the same regulations. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2009
From: "Dave Covert" <dave(at)algoa.net>
Subject: Re: Internet and flying
And if it is truly WiFi he will need to load his scrolling map with all the coffee shops along the way and fly the 'Starbuck'-airways rather than the 'victor'-airways... Dave On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 7:40 AM, Jay Maynard wrote: > > > I will have a cell phone with me that will be OFF but I have a Sprint Wi > Fi > > card that is for Internet use only that I will be using.... > > If it's truly WiFi, then there's no problem. If it's a Sprint data card, > though, it's just a cellphone that's only usable for data, and is subject > to > the same regulations. > -- > Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net > Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) > AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying ------- Wire stripper
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 07, 2009
I've had very good luck with this one from Radio Shack. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62787 -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223316#223316 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying ------- Wire stripper
From: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>
Date: Jan 07, 2009
Rich, I am cheap when it comes to buying tools that I may only use once or twice. Try putting a little bend in the cable and lightly score the outer insulation with a razor blade. You will find that the stress of the bend causes the insulation to nicely separate without the blade even touching the shielding. Good luck, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 First flight 7/24/08 Phase I flight test complete 10/16/08 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223319#223319 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Internet and flying
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 07, 2009
Aft, I could hardly care less if you use your cell phone in flight but while Sprint may call it a WiFi card it is still just a cell phone that is limited to data only and hence its use in flight is a violation of FCC regulations. Why you are so interested in streaming video out of the plane in flight is beyond me. It is going to look like crap and odds are nobody is going to be watching it with the exception of maybe family and friends. And they will probably get tired of the crappy feed. Add to that the issue that you are probably going to have to dick around with it in-flight which will take your mind off of what you should be doing which is flying the plane. Why don't you just shoot some video and upload it on to YouTube. P.S. I found, fairly nearby (Vicksburg MS), a rentable 601XL late last week and sent the guy and email and in about an hour we had a 2 each email conversation. The last one ended with him saying that he was in the plane with a student and he would call when he got back on the ground. He had been emailing me using his Blackberry in flight. P.P.S. If anyone is looking for a 601XLi to get time in time prior to first flight his contact info is Michael Nassour 601-415-3070 -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223325#223325 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2009
From: "Dave Covert" <dave(at)algoa.net>
Subject: Re: Internet and flying
I have to admit to that one... I fly with the BBerry's radio off, but once in a while I have been known to turn it on, look at the local radar shot and then turn it off again. I know it can cause trouble, but then, so can convection. The 60 to 90 seconds it takes me to improve my sit awareness seems like a good compromise between the letter of the law and the intent of the law. Dave On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Gig Giacona wrote: > > Aft, > > I could hardly care less if you use your cell phone in flight but while > Sprint may call it a WiFi card it is still just a cell phone that is limited > to data only and hence its use in flight is a violation of FCC regulations. > > Why you are so interested in streaming video out of the plane in flight is > beyond me. It is going to look like crap and odds are nobody is going to be > watching it with the exception of maybe family and friends. And they will > probably get tired of the crappy feed. Add to that the issue that you are > probably going to have to dick around with it in-flight which will take your > mind off of what you should be doing which is flying the plane. > > Why don't you just shoot some video and upload it on to YouTube. > > P.S. I found, fairly nearby (Vicksburg MS), a rentable 601XL late last week > and sent the guy and email and in about an hour we had a 2 each email > conversation. The last one ended with him saying that he was in the plane > with a student and he would call when he got back on the ground. He had been > emailing me using his Blackberry in flight. > > P.P.S. If anyone is looking for a 601XLi to get time in time prior to first > flight his contact info is > Michael Nassour > 601-415-3070 > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223325#223325 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying ------- Wire stripper
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Jan 07, 2009
Rich, I have the proper tools for my day job to strip all kinds of shielded wires, but mostly find that a good set of flush cutting diagonal cutters is easiest for separating a shield insulation, without nipping into the shield wires. I slice 4 or 5 cuts radially into the sleeve using the tips of the cutters, not deep enough to go fully thru. then flex the sleeve so the plastic gives way. the same cutters then trim the shield etc. and get at the inner counductor in similar way. I sometimes do a 'pinch cut' along the length of the sleeve and tear it away with the flush side of the cutters. The cutters need to be kept in good condition not to cut steel wires like TV cable but can be the same flush cuttters you use for trimming plastic cable ties in aircraft - Snap-on E709ACG or similar 4" cutter is good. it can be done with razor blades, sharp knives or even the proper tools, which do give a nicer appearance but need to be set up or used carefully to avoid damage. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223395#223395 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 750 On cover of Kitplanes
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 07, 2009
I noticed when I was home for lunch that the cover plane this month was the 750. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223402#223402 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Probst <fprobst(at)HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: XL Canopy on 601HD
Date: Jan 07, 2009
Hi Chris Your email bounced back so i'll post here. I built a 601 hd with a 601 xl canopy. If you need any info just ask. _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Edward Moody II" <dredmoody(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Cell phones and flying ------- Wire stripper
Date: Jan 08, 2009
If you are using tefzel shielded wire, here's my suggestion. Don't try to cut through the outer insulation to the wire underneath. Instead, use a very sharp disposable blade (I use a #25 blade in a Bard Parker lab knife but any new exacto blade would probably work as well) to score the insulation. The sharp blade will easily cut into the tefzel and allow you to make a ring all the way around the insulation. Stop at that point and bend the wire to finish cracking the insulation jacket open. Trial and error will train you to cut just deep enough to allow you to crack open the jacket. If you are grounding the shield, you will need to unbraid it at that point. I use the pointed end of a soldering tool for that. When I needed two of them at one point, I made the second one out of a rivet stem driven into the end of a small dowel then sharpened the end of the stem. The point can be used to tease apart the fine strands of the shield then the strands can be twisted together for crimping / splicing. I like to trail the shield wires back away from the other conductors and slip a short heat shrink over them to help segregate them from the other wires. That requires that you do the shield splice first so that the heat shrink can slide on from the free end. Like everything else you have to "walk it through" in your mind first to work out the order in which to proceed. Hope that helps, Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Flap Control Tuibes
Date: Jan 09, 2009
Hi Guys, I am presently fitting the flap motor and control tubes. What is the angle of the flap control tube (6B19-1 and 2) relative to the flap control arm (6B19-3)? I need to drill the holes for the bolts that hold all three pieces together. I don't have the wings built yet so is it worth waiting until the wings and flaps are in place before drilling anything? Cheers Peter 601 XL Wonthaggi Australia http://zodiac.cpc-world.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flap Control Tuibes
Date: Jan 08, 2009
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Peter, I strongly suggest waiting to drill and bolt the flap control arm to the tor que tubes until you have the wings and flaps in place. Because the geometry of the flap control system is so complex, even a small error in this connect ion has major consequences.=C2- I am speaking from experience.=C2- Once this connection is drilled and bolted, your options for correction are very limited.=C2- Best to wait. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Peter W Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> Sent: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 5:17 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Flap Control Tuibes Hi Guys, =C2- I am presently fitting the flap motor and control tubes. What is the angle o f the flap control tube (6B19-1 and 2) relative to the flap control arm (6B1 9-3)? I need to drill the holes for the bolts that hold all three pieces tog ether. =C2- I don=99t have the wings built yet so is it worth waiting until the wi ngs and flaps are in place before drilling anything? =C2- Cheers =C2- Peter 601 XL Wonthaggi Australia http://zodiac.cpc-world.com =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 0such as List Un/Subscription, ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Motivational Video
From: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas(at)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Jan 08, 2009
This morning my wife asked me to skip work and take her flying. Since she almost NEVER asks me to go flying I jumped at the offer. It was really cold and starting to snow but we drove out to the airport anyway. The clouds were high and the day was supposed to get better so we flew to York, Nebraska for lunch. We took the courtesy car into town and had a great lunch, then flew back in warmer weather and sunshine. It was a great day! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hDT-H91FG8 Building was fun but flying is better. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com 601XL/Corvair 120 hours Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223614#223614 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Motivational Video
From: "leinad" <leinad(at)hughes.net>
Date: Jan 08, 2009
Scott, Thankd for posting! Dan Dempsey 601xl/corvair plans builder cookwithgas wrote: > This morning my wife asked me to skip work and take her flying. Since she almost NEVER asks me to go flying I jumped at the offer. It was really cold and starting to snow but we drove out to the airport anyway. The clouds were high and the day was supposed to get better so we flew to York, Nebraska for lunch. We took the courtesy car into town and had a great lunch, then flew back in warmer weather and sunshine. It was a great day! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hDT-H91FG8 > > Building was fun but flying is better. > > Scott Laughlin > www.cooknwithgas.com > 601XL/Corvair > 120 hours -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223621#223621 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Motivational Video
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 08, 2009
Another great video... You might want to work on landing in the center of the runway though. ;) -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223623#223623 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 08, 2009
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Motivational Video
> You might want to work on landing in the center of the runway though. ;) Centerline? What centerline? -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dingfelder" <ding(at)tbscc.com>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Tuibes
Date: Jan 08, 2009
Peter, I basically agree with Jay. I chose to bolt the left side at initial assembly because it is less accessable later, but I first worked out the geometry very carefully so I could maximize flap travel. (with much effort, I finally achieved 24 deg., which works well) I fastened the other tube with one small temporary rivit just to keep it in place. This gives you the opportunity to adjust the flaps for exact symmetry after the wings are attached. After this step, I bolted the right tube. Lynn Corry, PA 601XL / Corvair Testing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 08, 2009
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Tuibes
Pete call me and I can walk you through the flap set up. 813-784-7312. I am flying in the moring to Miami, but avaialable after 10am. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Peter W Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> >Sent: Jan 8, 2009 6:17 PM >To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com, zenith601-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Flap Control Tuibes > >Hi Guys, > >I am presently fitting the flap motor and control tubes. What is the angle >of the flap control tube (6B19-1 and 2) relative to the flap control arm >(6B19-3)? I need to drill the holes for the bolts that hold all three pieces >together. > >I don't have the wings built yet so is it worth waiting until the wings and >flaps are in place before drilling anything? > >Cheers > >Peter >601 XL >Wonthaggi Australia >http://zodiac.cpc-world.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 08, 2009
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Tuibes
Do not drill flap control tubes till last. INstall the wings then fit the flaps in the setting as fully retracted. Just cleco do not rivet. use a piece of wood to hold them all the way up in place up against the nylon stops. Then with the tube essembled in place but not drilled, go under the plane and scribe with a sharp metal object or a fine pen the three parts to the tube, left tube, arm, and right tube. once all three are scribed. take the whole thing apart and take the flaps off . Then go and drill the tubes and match the parts together using the marks you scribed as referance. Make sure you you a vice to hold each part staedy. Add oil to the drill point whiler you drill, it helps the carving of the drill. reinstalled the drilled tubes in place in the up position. Restall the flaps making sure to cleco them in place. SO now the flaps are clecoed in place, the flap arms are assembled in the up position, bolt the arm to the flap motor, bolt the screws in place and torque to 10lbs. The motr in the up position shuold stop just 2 mm after the flap is in the up position, this locks the flap. then push the flap button top bring the flap down. the motor should stop when it hits the switch at the right distance, which is in the plans. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: dingfelder <ding(at)tbscc.com> >Sent: Jan 8, 2009 8:45 PM >To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flap Control Tuibes > >Peter, > I basically agree with Jay. I chose to bolt the left side at initial assembly because it is less accessable later, but I first worked out the geometry very carefully so I could maximize flap travel. (with much effort, I finally achieved 24 deg., which works well) I fastened the other tube with one small temporary rivit just to keep it in place. This gives you the opportunity to adjust the flaps for exact symmetry after the wings are attached. After this step, I bolted the right tube. > Lynn Corry, PA 601XL / Corvair Testing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 09, 2009
Subject: Re: Flap Control Tuibes
Good lord Juan that's a lot more work than need be. All you have to do is run the flap motor to the full up position make sure they are both even but don't place anything under the flaps to hold them up because the nylon will have some play. Once you have one side where you want it drill a 3/32 hole in the edge of the tube and cleco into place. Then adjust the other flap where you want it and drill a 3/32 hole in the other side of the tube and cleco that side as well. Once you are satisfied with the flaps run them up and down a few times just to be sure they will sit where you want them. Once you are satisfied drill and bolt each side. One note... be sure to think ahead as to where the bolt will travel as the tube turns so it won't hit anything. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) Do not archive Do not drill flap control tubes till last. INstall the wings then fit the flaps in the setting as fully retracted. Just cleco do not rivet. use a piece of wood to hold them all the way up in place up against the nylon stops. Then with the tube essembled in place but not drilled, go under the plane and scribe with a sharp metal object or a fine pen the three parts to the tube, left tube, arm, and right tube. once all three are scribed. take the whole thing apart and take the flaps off . Then go and drill the tubes and match the parts together using the marks you scribed as referance. Make sure you you a vice to hold each part staedy. Add oil to the drill point whiler you drill, it helps the carving of the drill. reinstalled the drilled tubes in place in the up position. Restall the flaps making sure to cleco them in place. SO now the flaps are clecoed in place, the flap arms are assembled in the up position, bolt the arm to the flap motor, bolt the screws in place and torque to 10lbs. The motr in the up position shuold stop just 2 mm after the flap is in the up position, this locks the flap. then push the flap button top bring the flap down. the motor should stop when it hits the s! witch at the right distance, which is in the plans. Juan **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Flap Control Tuibes
Date: Jan 09, 2009
Thanks Guys, Leave it all till later sounds like the plan. Cheers Peter 601 XL Wonthaggi Australia http://zodiac.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Juan Vega Sent: Friday, 9 January 2009 1:16 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flap Control Tuibes Pete call me and I can walk you through the flap set up. 813-784-7312. I am flying in the moring to Miami, but avaialable after 10am. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Peter W Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> >Sent: Jan 8, 2009 6:17 PM >To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com, zenith601-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Flap Control Tuibes > >Hi Guys, > >I am presently fitting the flap motor and control tubes. What is the angle >of the flap control tube (6B19-1 and 2) relative to the flap control arm >(6B19-3)? I need to drill the holes for the bolts that hold all three pieces >together. > >I don't have the wings built yet so is it worth waiting until the wings and >flaps are in place before drilling anything? > >Cheers > >Peter >601 XL >Wonthaggi Australia >http://zodiac.cpc-world.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net>
Subject: test
Date: Jan 09, 2009
Might have screwed up my settings. Any reply appreciated. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 09, 2009
From: Leo Gates <leo(at)zuehlfield.com>
Subject: Re: test
I got it. -- Leo Gates N601Z - CH601HDS TDO Rotax 912UL Bill Naumuk wrote: > Might have screwed up my settings. Any reply appreciated. > Bill Naumuk > Townville, Pa. > HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 09, 2009
From: Keith Ashcraft <ch701builder(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: test
Hi Bill, I received it at my end. Keith CH701 - scratch ********************************************** ________________________________ From: Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)alltel.net> Sent: Friday, January 9, 2009 5:39:37 PM Subject: Zenith-List: test Might have screwed up my settings. Any reply appreciated. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Self Leveling Laser Awesome Time Saver
From: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jan 10, 2009
I found the same one you have Gus, the BDL310S. It must have been my lucky day because it was the only one they had, no box but only $24. Took it home and checked it against a square, right on the money. Found my table was out a little so that got fixed and I am a happy camper. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223981#223981 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)windstream.net>
Subject: It works, but it doesn't
Date: Jan 10, 2009
All- Attached is a picture (Using my new camera, the old one died) of a late-in-the-process heartbreak. The last hole I had to drill for my Dynon frame shattered the laminate. The downside is, I blew 3 hours wet sanding out the big scratches from cutting the holes. The upside is, I should be able to remove the laminate using a heat gun and have a cleanly cut panel. Everything is square to within .1 degree according to my new laser level- anything that looks out of whack is parallax. Hey, they call this Experimental for good reason. I just have to keep telling myself that. You are experimenting. You are experimenting. You are... Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fwd: Canopy
Date: Jan 11, 2009
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Chris, I tried sending this directly to you, but it got bounced both times.? Not sure what the problem is. -----Original Message----- From: jaybannist(at)cs.com Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:02 am Subject: Canopy Chris, Making the canopy was, no doubt, the most frustrating part of the whole build process. I had three different sets of instructions for canopy construction, none of which were complete nor very clear.? Very, very confusing. ?? My advise:? Study everything you have on canopy construction.? Become VERY familiar with it.? Think it through.? Then get with it. Hardest things to do: Bending the lower frame rails to fit the curvature of the upper longeron of the fuselage. Hard to do, but you can do it. Curving the inside rail faring (6C3-5) by stretching the flange.? I thought I would never get this one done.? When I got the stretching and curving right, I had a piece of aluminum that fit but it looked horrible.? I made it "purty" with epoxy body putty.? I now know that the secret is to only pound on the back or under side of the flange with the exposed surface against a steel plate. Verifying or correcting the curvature of the tubular bows.? I didn't use plywood for this operation.? I used some of the large, heavy corrugated cardboard that came in the ZAC packing crates.? It serves the same purpose and is much easier to cut and re-cut than plywood. I made them fit the curve with the coordinates shown on the drawings.? I cut them to length (a little long) and began the process of checking the bows against the canopy bubble.? I used a Dremel with a cutoff wheel to cut the slot in the tube that is welded to the frame rail. Fit, mark, cut, fit, mark, cut unitl it is right.? Same with the curvature. You will have to cut a big notch in the edge of the bubble to clear the operator device.? When you start to drill and cleco the outside fairing and the bubble, stay clear of this notch.? I drilled a hole very close to it and promptly forgot about it.? It was several months after the construction that I again clecoed the bubble to the frame for final fastening.? When I put a cleco in that hole close to the notch, I got a crack.? Every time I tried to stop drill it, the crack ran a little further.? Again, I now know to stop a crack, you drill just beyond the end of the crack.? In the end, I was able to install a plastic vent that totally eliminated the crack. Locating the striker stud is critical.? Take your time and get it right. Adjusting the cable was a real puzzle to me, but I got it done.? I'm not real satisfied with it, but I can't do anything with it now without tearing the whole thing apart. Work with this adjustment until you are completely satisfied and everything works as it should.? There is no going back once the canopy is complete. Installing the gas spring is hard, and drilling those holes in the studs for the tiny cotter pins is trying. Once you have the holes drilled, use a larger bit to slightly bevel the edges of the hole.? That will make inseting the cotter much easier. At first I had trouble with unlatching (panicsville!).? I put the slot on the inside to actuate the latch lever, but I also put holes on the outside for the same thing.? A good spraying of powered graphite lubricant into the latch mechanism made everything work. Let me know if you have questions. - Good Luck and stay cool ! Jay Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Open canopy accident
Date: Jan 11, 2009
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Friends, I have been flying about thirty years. I have survived four engine stoppages , two on takeoff, one a broken crank at cruise; and a crash. I didn =99t just fall off a turnip truck.=C2- Believe me, when you are faced with death, you are not thinking about what a Monday morning peer review might s ay about your performance. You are intent on saving your life. You do not an alyze the situation.=C2- You react in whatever manner and with whatever me thods you have at your disposal.=C2- Your survival instinct and training a re your only resources.=C2- Facing death is not an academic experience. It is purely visceral. =C2- If your canopy pops open in flight, it will be a different situation and a d ifferent experience from mine. It is not something you can train for.=C2- Other than =9Cstay calm and fly the airplane=9D, NO ONE can tell you what to do or how to react.=C2- You are on your own. It is YOUR life and YOU will determine the outcome. So, please.=C2- No more advise. No more second guessing.=C2- None of you were in that cockpit with me so you can't possibly know what I faced.=C2 - It is over and I did the right thing. =C2- I AM ALIVE. Jay Bannister ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 11, 2009
Subject: Re: Open canopy accident
Jay, If you don't want anyone to comment on it don't bring up what happened to you. I had pics of someone flying with the Canopy open and he just had to ap ply more power and fly the plane. I can't see how the 601 you were flying could be any different than the thousands that were built exactly like yours. And I now know of 3 others that have landed with them open so it will fly if you don't get behind the plane, even ZAC says it will. There is no way for you to take this any way but personal so why bring it u p on the list because it just upsets you and what's the point in that. As you can see in the photo's this plane had a nose up attitude and landed without incident with more power applied . Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 167 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 60 Hrs (corrected) _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com) Do not archive Friends, I have been flying about thirty years. I have survived four engine stoppages, two on takeoff, one a broken crank at cruise; and a crash. I did n=99t just fall off a turnip truck. Believe me, when you are faced with death, you ar e not thinking about what a Monday morning peer review might say about your performance. You are intent on saving your life. You do not analyze the sit uation. You react in whatever manner and with whatever methods you have at your disposal. Your survival instinct and training are your only resources. Fa cing death is not an academic experience. It is purely visceral. If your canopy pops open in flight, it will be a different situation and a different experience from mine. It is not something you can train for. Oth er than =9Cstay calm and fly the airplane=9D, NO ONE can tell you what to do or how to react. You are on your own. It is YOUR life and YOU will determine the outcome. So, please. No more advise. No more second guessing. None of you were in that cockpit with me so you can't possibly know what I faced. It is over a nd I did the right thing. I AM ALIVE. Jay Bannister Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) Do not archive **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! ttp://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26b cd=De cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open canopy accident
From: "skyridersbn" <skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 11, 2009
Mr Garrett, What you don't seem to understand is that Jay has possibly posted to the wrong forum. I believe he is posting to a response from the Zenith 601 forum, correct Jay? (Isn't that the forum you are banned from Mr Garrett?) Either way, I found your reply to Jay as being very crass and without any compassion. You wasn't there so you have NO CLUE as to what to do or what should have been done differently. Each and every circumstance is different. Sure the POH can give you a possible corrective course of action, but NOTHING is for certain and since you wasn't there, you have no idea as to what you should do or what you would have done differently. Why is it that you seemed to want to chastise Jay for mentioning it? All I can say to end this mess is THANK GOD Jay and his CFI II was able to get the plane on the ground. I'll leave you with this one final thought Mr Garrett - My father used to tell me, "If you can't say anything nice to someone, it's just best to keep your mouth SHUT and your eyes and ears OPEN. You learn more that way". :) -------- Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved) CH650 (Converted from CH601XL) Starting fuselage will be Corvair Powered Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224067#224067 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "T. Graziano" <tonyplane(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Open canopy accident
Date: Jan 11, 2009
Jay, I'm glad you will be able to enjoy the sky again in your XL. I believe that under the circumstances, most pilots, including me, would have reduced power if the canopy opened and the nose pitched extremely nose down at pattern altitude. It would seem to be the correct response. Based on your experience, I will annotate my POH to try full power if the situation should ever happen to me. I have the "old" style latch and have taken off with one side not completely closed, although still attached by the latch safety detent. - you know it by hearing increased air noise when you throttle back.. Hope to never have a fully open canopy in flight, but your experience may lead to a more happy ending for others. At the least, it makes us more aware to carefully check the canopy latches before takeoff. Tony Graziano 601XL/Jab3300; 460 really enjoyable hrs; N493TG Buchanan, Tn ----- Original Message ----- From: jaybannist(at)cs.com To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 10:43 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Open canopy accident Friends, I have been flying about thirty years. I have survived four engine stoppages, two on takeoff, one a broken crank at cruise; and a crash. I didn=99t just fall off a turnip truck. Believe me, when you are faced with death, you are not thinking about what a Monday morning peer review might say about your performance. You are intent on saving your life. You do not analyze the situation. You react in whatever manner and with whatever methods you have at your disposal. Your survival instinct and training are your only resources. Facing death is not an academic experience. It is purely visceral. If your canopy pops open in flight, it will be a different situation and a different experience from mine. It is not something you can train for. Other than =9Cstay calm and fly the airplane=9D, NO ONE can tell you what to do or how to react. You are on your own. It is YOUR life and YOU will determine the outcome. So, please. No more advise. No more second guessing. None of you were in that cockpit with me so you can't possibly know what I faced. It is over and I did the right thing. I AM ALIVE. Jay Bannister ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 11, 2009
Subject: Re: Open canopy accident
Larry, I really wasn't trying to throw stones at Jay I was simply trying to inform folks that the 601 can be flown with the Canopy open and not to freak out if it happens and pics don't lie. So if Jay or you think I was somehow directing it directly at them so be it. I just know that if anyone brings up that it can be flown with it open Jay gets upset so why comment on it? I to am glad he didn't get hurt and walked away and it is true that the 601 in the pic's wasn't a AMD and it didn't have a 0-200 and it had different color paint but I still stand behind what I said and that is that if the aircraft wasn't over gross and was within proper CG it should have been stable with the canopy open provide the plane didn't get too slow. I'm not even gonna comment on your rudeness though Mr. Hursh Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) Do not archive Mr Garrett, What you don't seem to understand is that Jay has possibly posted to the wrong forum. I believe he is posting to a response from the Zenith 601 forum, correct Jay? (Isn't that the forum you are banned from Mr Garrett?) Either way, I found your reply to Jay as being very crass and without any compassion. You wasn't there so you have NO CLUE as to what to do or what should have been done differently. Each and every circumstance is different. Sure the POH can give you a possible corrective course of action, but NOTHING is for certain and since you wasn't there, you have no idea as to what you should do or what you would have done differently. Why is it that you seemed to want to chastise Jay for mentioning it? All I can say to end this mess is THANK GOD Jay and his CFI II was able to get the plane on the ground. I'll leave you with this one final thought Mr Garrett - My father used to tell me, "If you can't say anything nice to someone, it's just best to keep your mo! uth SHUT and your eyes and ears OPEN. You learn more that way". :) -------- Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved) CH650 (Converted from CH601XL) Starting fuselage will be Corvair Powered **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills(at)sunflower.com>
Subject: Open canopy accident
Date: Jan 11, 2009
Jay; Being a fellow survivor of a forced landing after my new prop broke off my 601, I can understand what you are saying and I have to agree with your advice to stay calm and fly the plane. And that's not just my opinion either, as I noticed a statistic (while reading Stick and Rudder) that about 75% of the time, when a pilot is killed in a forced landing it is because of LOSS OF CONTROL. What ????? Yes that's right, the pilot dies because he losses control of the plane. It's that simple. Don't' loose control, and you probably wont' die, you will just land like us. My advice to all of you is to practice power off landings, get use to flying with no power, keeping the speed up and the noise down and don't make any radical wing banks or quick panicky stick movements. Just work the problem and fly the plane. It sounds simple, but until you have lost power and are coming down, you probably don't know how hard it is to keep your head on flying and not on what might happen to you when you touch the ground. Force landings are something you can train for, so do it and don't just stick your head in the sand and say; it won't happen to me. (You might also try flying a combat flight simulator, there is nothing like being shot down 1000 times...) Finally, Jay and I survived, and so can you, just fly the plane and get it into your head that your going down, so accept it and just fly the plane and if you DON'T' loose control of your self, and the plane, your probably going to be fine. Roger Hill _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist(at)cs.com Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 10:44 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Open canopy accident Friends, I have been flying about thirty years. I have survived four engine stoppages, two on takeoff, one a broken crank at cruise; and a crash. I didn't just fall off a turnip truck. Believe me, when you are faced with death, you are not thinking about what a Monday morning peer review might say about your performance. You are intent on saving your life. You do not analyze the situation. You react in whatever manner and with whatever methods you have at your disposal. Your survival instinct and training are your only resources. Facing death is not an academic experience. It is purely visceral. If your canopy pops open in flight, it will be a different situation and a different experience from mine. It is not something you can train for. Other than "stay calm and fly the airplane", NO ONE can tell you what to do or how to react. You are on your own. It is YOUR life and YOU will determine the outcome. So, please. No more advise. No more second guessing. None of you were in that cockpit with me so you can't possibly know what I faced. It is over and I did the right thing. I AM ALIVE. Jay Bannister _____ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 11, 2009
Subject: Some videos of us flying
After switching from the front starter kit to the Aerolite rear system we flew from Louisville Ky to spend the night with Bill Clapp then on to Englewood Fl. The flight was great. Here are the #'s Voltage was 14 volts steady Oil pressure was steady 40 lbs Cht's were 125-130 steady and 200-225 climb Egt 1050 steady Oil temp 60 degrees OAT were 255 before the cooler and 190-200 after cooler (with my new fiberglass baffles installed but had some air loss so should see 10 degree drop after sealing.) Here are some youtube links _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyx2nalW9gs_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyx2nalW9gs) _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC4fF0uTuxQ_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC4fF0uTuxQ) _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEbz-AK3YU0_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEbz-AK3YU0) _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JPnUcicz7k_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JPnUcicz7k) Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) Do not archive **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Subject: Re: Replace Aileron Controls
Fellows 601XL Builders and Flyers. Well, I finally finished up on removing the cables from my XL ailerons and replacing them with push pull tubes. Total cost was about $ 100. and took about a whole weekend to complete. Sure would have been easier to install them while building. I made a test flight Saturday morning and I was very pleased with the results. Control is quicker and more solid to the touch. At slow flight, in the pattern and steep turns it was more responsive. At greater speeds the ailerons were about as stiff and heavy as they ever were. I went up to 2,500 feet and took her up to 155 mph and gave her some shakes trying to see if a flutter could be caused and nothing. Lastly, the weigh difference is the push/pull rod system weighs 14.2 ounces more than the wire system. I didn't write up what I did or the materials nor have I taken any photos, but if a ground swell of interest and excitement occurs along with a bunch of pledges to buy me beer at Sun N Fun Bar B Q this spring I might be persuaded to put together an "How & What". Best regards, Bill of Georgia **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2009
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Open canopy accident. Also in case of engine out landings.
Hello Roger (and list), - I just want to add a little advise (personal experience 3 engine out landin gs with 2 cycle engines in previos "Fat Ultralighs",- (in one case-was fuel finished, with 45 mph head wind, 60 mph cruise,-no way to make it to destination, to high the mountains around to return, "Gethomeitis").-- - All of us get nervous when "gliding" without engine (cant imagine a pilot i n a Pitts). This feeling is perfectly normal, even to "Rambo" and Swecheneger (what eve r is the spelling:-).- The more we get close to the land (and the rougher it looks)- the more ne rvous we start feeling.- Fight this attitude, you can make it.-- - Please dont level and/or flare too high,- fight this instict, or the plan e will stall and there is where the control looses and G's increase...- - This is a mayor statistical cause of severe damage and death. - Also dont think on saving the airplane (it happens "all this years and mone y sindrome"), will make you stall it and the damage will be worse...- Fly it to the ground even if it looks (from the cabin) like a Kamikase pilot : -) Practice emergencies and if possible take a few hours in Gliders,- Yes th ey have better LD and spoilers,- but is a good training. - Hope this helps - Saludos Gary Gower. Here we have- a local Club named (translated) "Survivors of Engine Out La ndings Club".- I am a 3 star member (with 3 landings). We say is So Exclusive that we Dont Want any new members in it :-) Our Motto:- "Fly Safe, Preflight and Mantain your airplane properly". --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Roger & Lina Hill wrote: From: Roger & Lina Hill <hills(at)sunflower.com> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Open canopy accident Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 2:10 PM Jay; - Being a fellow survivor of a forced landing after my new prop broke off my 601, I can understand what you are saying and I have to agree with your adv ice to stay calm and fly the plane.- And that=92s not just my opinion eit her, as I noticed a statistic (while reading Stick and Rudder) that about 7 5% of the time, when a pilot is killed in a forced landing it is because of LOSS OF CONTROL. What ?????- Yes that=92s right, the pilot dies because he losses control of the plane. It=92s that simple.- Don=92t=92 loose con trol, and you probably wont=92 die, you will just land like us. - My advice to all of you is to practice power off landings, get use to flyin g with no power, keeping the speed up and the noise down and don=92t make a ny radical wing banks or quick panicky stick movements. Just work the probl em and fly the plane.- It sounds simple, but until you have lost power an d are coming down, you probably don=92t know how hard it is to keep your he ad on flying and not on what might happen to you when you touch the ground. Force landings are something you can train for, so do it and don=92t just stick your head in the sand and say; it won=92t happen to me. - (You might also try flying a combat flight simulator, there is nothing like being shot down 1000 times=85..) - Finally, Jay and I survived, and so can you, just fly the plane and get it into your head that -your going down, so accept it and just fly the plane and if you DON=92T=92 loose control of your self, and the plane, your prob ably going to be fine. - Roger Hill - - - From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-serv er(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist(at)cs.com Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 10:44 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Open canopy accident - Friends, I have been flying about thirty years. I have survived four engine stoppage s, two on takeoff, one a broken crank at cruise; and a crash. I didn=92t ju st fall off a turnip truck.- Believe me, when you are faced with death, y ou are not thinking about what a Monday morning peer review might say about your performance. You are intent on saving your life. You do not analyze t he situation.- You react in whatever manner and with whatever methods you have at your disposal.- Your survival instinct and training are your onl y resources.- Facing death is not an academic experience. It is purely vi sceral. - If your canopy pops open in flight, it will be a different situation and a different experience from mine. It is not something you can train for.- O ther than =93stay calm and fly the airplane=94, NO ONE can tell you what to do or how to react.- You are on your own. It is YOUR life and YOU will d etermine the outcome. So, please.- No more advise. No more second guessing.- None of you were in that cockpit with me so you can't possibly know what I faced.- It is over and I did the right thing. - I AM ALIVE. Jay Bannister Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com - -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronic s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution - =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Brumpton" <jbrumpt(at)activ8.net.au>
Subject: Re: Replace Aileron Controls
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Bill I certainly would be interested if we can twist your arm Thanks John ----- Original Message ----- From: JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 4:43 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Replace Aileron Controls Fellows 601XL Builders and Flyers. Well, I finally finished up on removing the cables from my XL ailerons and replacing them with push pull tubes. Total cost was about $ 100. and took about a whole weekend to complete. Sure would have been easier to install them while building. I made a test flight Saturday morning and I was very pleased with the results. Control is quicker and more solid to the touch. At slow flight, in the pattern and steep turns it was more responsive. At greater speeds the ailerons were about as stiff and heavy as they ever were. I went up to 2,500 feet and took her up to 155 mph and gave her some shakes trying to see if a flutter could be caused and nothing. Lastly, the weigh difference is the push/pull rod system weighs 14.2 ounces more than the wire system. I didn't write up what I did or the materials nor have I taken any photos, but if a ground swell of interest and excitement occurs along with a bunch of pledges to buy me beer at Sun N Fun Bar B Q this spring I might be persuaded to put together an "How & What". Best regards, Bill of Georgia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- A Good Credit Score 13x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx ?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps! __________ NOD32 3757 (20090111) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Replace Aileron Controls
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Consider the ground swelling. I'd really like to see how you did it and a materials and any other instructions. I won't be a Sun N Fun but I have little doubt that we will cross paths in the future and if we do the info will be worth several beers. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224209#224209 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Fulmer" <rfulmer1(at)triad.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Replace Aileron Controls
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Hi: You can count me in on that beer and ground swell too.....would love to see the method and material package. Bob Fulmer ----- Original Message ----- From: JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:13 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Replace Aileron Controls Fellows 601XL Builders and Flyers. Well, I finally finished up on removing the cables from my XL ailerons and replacing them with push pull tubes. Total cost was about $ 100. and took about a whole weekend to complete. Sure would have been easier to install them while building. I made a test flight Saturday morning and I was very pleased with the results. Control is quicker and more solid to the touch. At slow flight, in the pattern and steep turns it was more responsive. At greater speeds the ailerons were about as stiff and heavy as they ever were. I went up to 2,500 feet and took her up to 155 mph and gave her some shakes trying to see if a flutter could be caused and nothing. Lastly, the weigh difference is the push/pull rod system weighs 14.2 ounces more than the wire system. I didn't write up what I did or the materials nor have I taken any photos, but if a ground swell of interest and excitement occurs along with a bunch of pledges to buy me beer at Sun N Fun Bar B Q this spring I might be persuaded to put together an "How & What". Best regards, Bill of Georgia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- A Good Credit Score 13x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx ?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: John Davis <johnd@data-tech.com>
Subject: N601JD First Flight
N601JD my 601XL with a Jabiru 3300 took to the air for the first time last Friday at Avery County Airport (7A8) in Spruce Pine, NC. Its a quickbuild kit that I started in April 07. The obligatory Youtube video is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIVt40B5dLc. Its short and a bit shaky so be careful if you get motion sickness :-) The flight went well with only a couple of minor squawks: 1. Need to add a stop to the throttle @ low RPMS to prevent the engine from stopping when the throttle is pulled too far back to idle. The US Jabiru guys recommend a small cable stop added to the throttle cable at the carb to prevent this. 2. Aileron trim is wired backwards, Oops, didn't notice a real need for the aileron trim though 3. Experiment with my Sensenich Ground adjustable prop and also re-jetting the Bing carb to maximize performance. CHTs and EGTs looked good though, perhaps I wont have to spend too much time messing with cooling issues. Woo hoo, now only 38 more hours till the end of Phase 1... If only I had remembered to turn on my in cockpit video recorder, I'll do that next time...once the darned weather clears up again. Thanks to all the list members who helped with questions during the build process. Thanks, John Davis Burnsville, NC N601JD - 601XL/Jab 3300 Now Flying!!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: N601JD First Flight
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: japhillipsga(at)aol.com
John, Congrats! That 1st flight is a big deal as I well remember. Enjoy the next 38 hours cause they will pass quickly as well. Best regards, Bill of Georgia -----Original Message----- From: John Davis <johnd@data-tech.com> Sent: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 1:29 pm Subject: Zenith-List: N601JD First Flight ? N601JD my 601XL with a Jabiru 3300 took to the air for the first time last Friday at Avery County Airport (7A8) in Spruce Pine, NC. Its a quickbuild kit that I started in April 07.? ? The obligatory Youtube video is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIVt40B5dLc. Its short and a bit shaky so be careful if you get motion sickness :-)? ? The flight went well with only a couple of minor squawks:? 1. Need to add a stop to the throttle @ low RPMS to prevent the engine from stopping when the throttle is pulled too far back to idle. The US Jabiru guys recommend a small cable stop added to the throttle cable at the carb to prevent this.? 2. Aileron trim is wired backwards, Oops, didn't notice a real need for the aileron trim though? 3. Experiment with my Sensenich Ground adjustable prop and also re-jetting the Bing carb to maximize performance. CHTs and EGTs looked good though, perhaps I wont have to spend too much time messing with cooling issues.? ? Woo hoo, now only 38 more hours till the end of Phase 1...? ? If only I had remembered to turn on my in cockpit video recorder, I'll do that next time...once the darned weather clears up again.? ? Thanks to all the list members who helped with questions during the build process.? ? Thanks,? John Davis? Burnsville, NC? N601JD - 601XL/Jab 3300? Now Flying!!!!? ? ? ? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Replace Aileron Controls
From: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2009
I'm interested. Thanks, - Pat -------- Patrick 601XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224328#224328 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: "Dave Thompson" <dave.thompson(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Corvair engine for sale
I have a disassembled, partly cleaned 1965 Corvair RH 110 engine for sale (TI007RH). The stock size 8409 crank has been polished, magnafluxed and modified per Flycorvair.com specs. It has NOT been nitrided. The 3878566 heads are very rebuildable. One head has minor repairable damage from 2 dropped valve seats. Cylinders are nice and need only minor honing. The rods are good cores for rebuilding. All other stock Corvair parts required for flight modification are included. I have purchased the following parts from Flycorvair.com which are also included: Deep Sump Oil Pan Oil Pan installation kit, including modified pickup Rebuilt Rear Oil Accessory Case Hybrid Studs & safety shaft Rebuilt, dual bushed distributor, missing the points plate I will also include a #167 Harbor Freight air rivet puller with Zenith modified heads and a CD that includes 4-years of research on building a Zenith 601 and Corvair engine. This research includes webpage favorites, extensive parts Excel spreadsheet and Microsoft Visio stencils for aircraft panel design. Also included are printed, three-ring binder copies of the following: FAA AC20-27F Certification and Operation of Amateur Aircraft FAA CAC 43.13-1B/2A, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection & Repair FAA H 8083-1 Weight & Balance Handbook FAA AC90-89A, Flight Testing Handbook Total invested over $1600.00, asking $800.00 or best offer. I will pack for shipment on a pallet. Buyer pays shipping. I prefer Southern California pickup. I will not sell any of the parts separately. Buyer should either have or purchase William Wynne's conversion manual. Any interested parties please respond off list. I will email a complete detailed parts list of what I have which also includes parts need for the full modification. I no longer read the Zenith list as I have moved to a new hobby with my 1963 Corvair convertible Turbo Spyder. I look forward to hearing from you, Dave Thompson Dave.thompson(at)verizon.net 714-334-3833 Westminster, California ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: N601JD First Flight
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Congratulations !!!!! I wish they'd had the QB gets when I was a starting. johnd(at)data-tech.com wrote: > N601JD my 601XL with a Jabiru 3300 took to the air for the first time -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224339#224339 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <paulrod36(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Replace Aileron Controls
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Sounds very good, Bill. For those of us who can't make S&F, the basics, (length of tube, material, method of attaching ball ends) would sure be helpful. Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com<mailto:JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:13 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Replace Aileron Controls Fellows 601XL Builders and Flyers. Well, I finally finished up on removing the cables from my XL ailerons and replacing them with push pull tubes. Total cost was about $ 100. and took about a whole weekend to complete. Sure would have been easier to install them while building. I made a test flight Saturday morning and I was very pleased with the results. Control is quicker and more solid to the touch. At slow flight, in the pattern and steep turns it was more responsive. At greater speeds the ailerons were about as stiff and heavy as they ever were. I went up to 2,500 feet and took her up to 155 mph and gave her some shakes trying to see if a flutter could be caused and nothing. Lastly, the weigh difference is the push/pull rod system weighs 14.2 ounces more than the wire system. I didn't write up what I did or the materials nor have I

December 26, 2008 - January 12, 2009

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