AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ae
April 30, 2001 - May 22, 2001
You got THAT right . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Van Artsdalen, Scott" <svanarts(at)unionsafe.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Start key vs. switch... |
I saw an anti-theft system that was very similar to what's described here
but also with a hint of misdirection. The fellow used the cobra-links prop
lock. He also had a fake panel made up with a photo realistic image on it
of a panel that had it's radios torn out. It was just a flat panel that was
velcroed on to his real panel. From outside the plane it looked for all
the word like the plane had just had it's radios stolen. He was a claims
adjuster for some insurance company.
--
Scott VanArtsdalen, MCSE, CCNA
Network Administrator
Union Safe Deposit Bank
209-946-5116
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
[mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com]
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 9:54 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-List: Start
key vs. switch...
Nuckolls, III"
Bob
To follow this thread a step further do you have any
thoughts on
ways to secure the airplane. I don't intend to use a key
start
switch, but would like some way to disable the airplane and
at
least make it more time consuming to try and steal it. What
about
some kind of remote switch like use on car doors etc.?
Jim
When I owned the airport, there was a J-3 in our rental
fleet that had no door locks and toggle switch mags.
The airplane was housed in open pole barn facilities
an vulnerable to theft.
The BEST way to secure this kind (or any other kind)
of aircraft is with a piece of hardened chain (covered
with leather or plastic sleeve to avoid scratching)
wrapped around the propeller blades and secured with
a really good lock. The whole rig cost me less than
$25 and I can guarantee you that nobody wants to try
and fly an airplane with that kind of "unbalance"
in the prop.
It's so obvious just walking up to the airplane that
a potential thief won't even bother to wreck your doors
to get inside . . . unless it's radios he wants. Can't
help you much with that issue other than to use radios
that install in trays, dismount with an allen wrench,
and you can take them with you.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
through
http://www.matronics.com/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Start key vs. switch... |
> To follow this thread a step further do you have any thoughts on
> ways to secure the airplane. I don't intend to use a key start
> switch, but would like some way to disable the airplane and at
> least make it more time consuming to try and steal it. What about
> some kind of remote switch like use on car doors etc.?
A few years ago, I worked for a company that makes access control
equipment for buildings. You know the stuff... magnetic card swipe
readers, etc. One of their products is a prox reader... a device that
can read a transponder at a range of up to an inch or so. A reader could
be mounted inside the perspex of the canopy, and read a transponder held
against the outside of the canopy. You would need to add an electrically
controlled lock (configured so that if the battery goes flat or is
disconnected, the aircraft is unlocked). The reader runs on 12V. The
reader itself is about the size of a matchbox, and the transponder is
credit card sized.
Another similar device could be used as a keyswitch... ignition might
only be enabled when the transponder is near the ignition reader. You
could use a clip on the panel to hold the transponder, or else locate
the reader in the bottom of the seat if you keep the transponder in your
wallet in your hip pocket. But don't wriggle about too much in the seat!
Frank.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Using a 14 volt alternator to produce 28 volts |
> >Bob,
> > I have recently been considering using a 24 volt system. This would allow
more power for heated
> >seats and/or heated vests. My RMI Micromonitor and MicroEncoder will support
voltages from 10-30,
> >so there is no problem there. The higher voltage would also allow me to use
smaller battery
> >cables. I'm building an RV-8A with the rear battery location. (Battery is located
in the rear
> >baggage compartment)
> > Can the small Nippon Denso 14 volt alternators (using a 28 volt regulator)
sold by Van's & B&C be
> >safely used in a 24 volt system? Would I be better off to look for a small
ND alternator that is
> >native 24 volts?
> >Charlie Kuss
>
> B&C's 28V alternators are actually 14V machines with a
> VERY SPECIAL regulator. You can go that route if you choose.
> Otherwise, you'll have to find a suitable alternator designed
> to produce 28V with an ordinary regulator. I am aware of no
> lightweight, modern products that I can recommend.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Bob,
Thanks for the great info. I would like to thank you for the wonderful education
you are giving me
on aviation electrics.
Can you elaborate on what is "special" about B&C's regulator without giving away
trade secrets?
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman Hunger" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
Does anyone know a source and cost of a small attitude gyro?
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Emrath" <Emrath(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electrical system voltage |
Steve, try to look at the heated massage seat advertised on
http://www.Voyager.com the AA in-flight magazine. Put one over your seat as
a seat cover, 12V. and you'll probably be kept plenty warm. Why heat air to
heat your bod? Just a thought
Marty in Brentwood, TN
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kay" <skay(at)optonline.net>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electrical system voltage
>
> Or put a modern water cooled engine in tha modern plane...Heh Heh
>
> "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > >Bob,
> > >You wrote:
> > >
> > >> Probably something on the order of 50-60 amps . . . certainly
> > >> PLENTY in a 24V system. Are you planning on staying 24 volts?
> > >> You can save about 15 pounds of engine accessories installation
> > >> and upgrade the overall service life of your electrical system
> > >> components by changing the existing stuff out in favor of
> > >> more modern, light weight 14V accessories.
> > >
> > >I'm discovering that my Cozy has a lot of small and not so small
electrical system problems. I
> > >think I need to rebuild my electrical system, if not for safety, at
least so I more fully
> > >understand the system and can chase out the age related bugs.
> > Good idea . . .
> >
> > >Everybody keeps talking about the wire size for the 28 volt vs 14 volt
systems, and the weight
> > >savings in using the higher voltage. I also notice the Garmin 430 and
530 came out initially in
> > >28 volts only, although they are now available in 14 volt models.
> >
> > Wire size argument is totally bogus for anything less
> > than a B17 or similar aircraft where you have lots of
> > taxpayer dollars to buy anything you wish and taking
> > hundreds of pounds of wire weight out lets you carry
> > that much more fuel and/or bombs.
> >
> > For us folk who have to pay our own way the couple
> > of pounds you save in a small airplane comes at the cost
> > of excluding all automotive (14V) hardware in favor of
> > all aircraft (28v) hardware for many more dollars.
> >
> > >So, my question to you is: If you were starting an electrical system
for a compact light plane,
> > >and expected to be installing an IFR avionics suite, what voltage would
you select?
> >
> > 14V . . . in a heartbeat.
> >
> > >P.S. I'm going to be flying my Cozy in Alaska again, eventually, and
one of the better answers for
> > >cabin heat appears to be an electric heater in the nose. But the 14
volt electric heater really
> > >doesn't do the job, and draws huge amperage. I'm told the 28 volt
version would be much more
> > >comfortable, and draw less amps.
> > Watts is watts is watts . . . heat output is watts. Watts
> > are volts times amps. So, a 14v 10A heater that puts out
> > 140 watts of heat is half as effective as a 28V 10A heater
> > that puts out 280 watts.
> >
> > If you need electric heat, then stay with the 28V system
> > and take the hit for cost of other accessories. Your
> > all-up electrical loads can be as low as 10-15 amps
> > to run the airplane . . . this may leave you as much
> > as 40-50 amps of snort left over to run heaters . . .
> > which will STILL fall short of the BTU's of heat available
> > from an exhaust heater muff . . . but 40 amps times
> > 28V gives you 1120 watts of heat . . . about the
> > same as a hefty hair dryer and a whole lot more
> > effective than NO heat.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> > ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> > ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tom sargent <sarg314(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Master solonoid |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >I don't have an alternator yet. I have been talking with some guys that
> >have RV-8's now and they say that they would just put in that switch and
> >forget the solenoid. The reason is that if you leave a straight switch on
> >the drain on the battery is negligible Vs. driving a master solenoid which
> >will run your battery down quicker. My question is, do I lose anything by
> >not installing the solenoid? The way that I understand it, its purpose is
> >that it handles large AMPS so the switch doesn't have to. If the switch will
> >handle the Amps what is the purpose of the solenoid? Am I making sense?
> >PS I understand the function of the checklist to secure the aircraft.
>
> A contactor (solenoid) is a remotely controllable high current
> switch . . . a manually operated switch may not be practical if
> it needs to be located very far from a pilot's reach. Unless you're
> hurting for alternator output (some little PM alternators are good
> for 10A or less), I'd go ahead and put the battery contactor in.
> Using a contactor allows you to integrate both alternator and
> battery master controls into a single switch . . . which can
> prevent an alternator from being left on AFTER the battery is
> OFF . . . You can easily wire a two position oil pressure switch
> to control both a hour meter -AND- a low oil pressure light. If
> you wire a small buzzer across the light, it will sound any time
> the bus is hot (master on) and engine is stopped (oil pressure light
> illuminated).
>
> Opting for manual switch instead of contactor is a good power
> conservation move if you have a small engine driven power source.
> Otherwise, I'd stick with the battery master contactor.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Sorry to be responding so late to this, but I fell way behind in my email. I like
the idea of
replacing the contactor relay with a simple switch. The reason is one I expected
you to
mention: When your alternatore fails, the battery has to supply the hold-in current
for the
contactor. At that time I'd like to have every amp I can get my hands on. The
switch is
probably lighter than the contactor too. On an RV-6 it should be easy to mount
it close to the
battery. What am I missing here?
Comments?
--
Tom Sargent.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman Hunger" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
| Subject: | Com Antenna Placement |
I've got a Bob Archer com antenna in one wing tip connected to a Bob Archer
splitter then serving two com radios. I want to try this uncertified method
to eliminate external antennas. I've heard enough good reports on his
products to be satisfied. However, I would like to run RG-400 from the stack
to under the seats in case it isn't good enough. I want to make it quick and
easy to add a com ant. Is this the best spot in a RV6A? Who is happy with
his com ant below the belly?
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz> |
Norman Hunger wrote:
>
>
> Does anyone know a source and cost of a small attitude gyro?
Afraid not.
But, if you get any replies in email, could you forward them to me
please.
Especially if they're cheap! :-)
Frank.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
Norman Hunger wrote:
> Does anyone know a source and cost of a small attitude gyro?
The sales rep from BFGoodrich Aerospace said about $5000.
Richard Reynolds
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Master solonoid |
>
>"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>>
>> >
>> >I don't have an alternator yet. I have been talking with some guys that
>> >have RV-8's now and they say that they would just put in that switch and
>> >forget the solenoid. The reason is that if you leave a straight switch on
>> >the drain on the battery is negligible Vs. driving a master solenoid which
>> >will run your battery down quicker. My question is, do I lose anything by
>> >not installing the solenoid? The way that I understand it, its purpose is
>> >that it handles large AMPS so the switch doesn't have to. If the switch will
>> >handle the Amps what is the purpose of the solenoid? Am I making sense?
>> >PS I understand the function of the checklist to secure the aircraft.
>>
>> A contactor (solenoid) is a remotely controllable high current
>> switch . . . a manually operated switch may not be practical if
>> it needs to be located very far from a pilot's reach. Unless you're
>> hurting for alternator output (some little PM alternators are good
>> for 10A or less), I'd go ahead and put the battery contactor in.
>> Using a contactor allows you to integrate both alternator and
>> battery master controls into a single switch . . . which can
>> prevent an alternator from being left on AFTER the battery is
>> OFF . . . You can easily wire a two position oil pressure switch
>> to control both a hour meter -AND- a low oil pressure light. If
>> you wire a small buzzer across the light, it will sound any time
>> the bus is hot (master on) and engine is stopped (oil pressure light
>> illuminated).
>>
>> Opting for manual switch instead of contactor is a good power
>> conservation move if you have a small engine driven power source.
>> Otherwise, I'd stick with the battery master contactor.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>Sorry to be responding so late to this, but I fell way behind in my email. I
like the idea of
>replacing the contactor relay with a simple switch. The reason is one I expected
you to
>mention: When your alternatore fails, the battery has to supply the hold-in current
for the
>contactor. At that time I'd like to have every amp I can get my hands on. The
switch is
>probably lighter than the contactor too. On an RV-6 it should be easy to mount
it close to the
>battery. What am I missing here?
>
>Comments?
Nothing with respect to how the contactor operates
. . . except perhaps you've overlooked the alternate feed
path to an essential bus illustrated on most of our power
distribution diagrams. Whether your battery master is a switch
or a contactor, I can't guarantee that it will never fail.
Therefore, we have a dual pathway to the e-bus that operates
irrespective of condition of the battery switching mechanism.
With the alternator off line, the recommended modus operandi
is to turn the battery master OFF and operate essential equipment
battery only via direct pathway until you have airport in sight.
THEN, if you have enough snort left to run lights, etc, etc,
then you can turn the battery master back on.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: heated seats . . . |
>
>Steve, try to look at the heated massage seat advertised on
>http://www.Voyager.com the AA in-flight magazine. Put one over your seat as
>a seat cover, 12V. and you'll probably be kept plenty warm. Why heat air to
>heat your bod? Just a thought
About 10 years ago, I recall a lumber yard demonstration of
a new insulation product . . . the material was basically
small pocket bubble pack with an aluminum reflective surface.
The demo was simply a cylinder about 8" in diameter that was
lined with the new product. You were invited to stick your
bare arm down into the cylinder. In seconds, you could FEEL
your own body heat being reflected back to your arm.
There are camping/survival products commonly referred to as
"space blankets" . . . again, a thin plastic (mylar I think)
coated one side with a very shiny aluminum.
I wonder if we couldn't increase the cold weather comfort
of aircraft seats by incorporating a product like this into
the upholstery . . . you might want to make it removable for
warm weather. One might be able to save a lot of cost and
complexity for cold weather cockpit comfort by conserving
the heat your body already has as opposed to electrical/
mechanical augmentation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Using a 14 volt alternator to produce |
28 volts
>
>> >Bob,
>> > I have recently been considering using a 24 volt system. This would allow
more power for heated
>> >seats and/or heated vests. My RMI Micromonitor and MicroEncoder will support
voltages from 10-30,
>> >so there is no problem there. The higher voltage would also allow me to use
smaller battery
>> >cables. I'm building an RV-8A with the rear battery location. (Battery is located
in the rear
>> >baggage compartment)
>> > Can the small Nippon Denso 14 volt alternators (using a 28 volt regulator)
sold by Van's & B&C be
>> >safely used in a 24 volt system? Would I be better off to look for a small
ND alternator that is
>> >native 24 volts?
>> >Charlie Kuss
>>
>> B&C's 28V alternators are actually 14V machines with a
>> VERY SPECIAL regulator. You can go that route if you choose.
>> Otherwise, you'll have to find a suitable alternator designed
>> to produce 28V with an ordinary regulator. I am aware of no
>> lightweight, modern products that I can recommend.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
> Thanks for the great info. I would like to thank you
>for the wonderful education you are giving me
>on aviation electrics. Can you elaborate on what is
>"special" about B&C's regulator without giving away trade secrets?
I am pleased that you find the work useful. It's a lot
of fun and very educational for me too.
No secrets. A 14V alternator is fitted with a field
winding that will not tolerate continuous application
of anything more than about 15 volts. A 14V alternator
will produce 28V if you spin it fast enough (NO problem
with belt drive on Lycomings). Soooo . . . I designed
a regulator for B&C that is simply a switchmode power
supply that is 28V input and 1 to 15 volts output.
I use an op-amp and voltage reference to close the loop
around the steerable power supply to make it behave as
a regulator would . . . except that it is physically
incapable of producing more than 15V output thus
protecting the 14V alternator's field winding.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: heated seats . . . |
>
>
> About 10 years ago, I recall a lumber yard demonstration of
> a new insulation product . . . the material was basically
> small pocket bubble pack with an aluminum reflective surface.
> The demo was simply a cylinder about 8" in diameter that was
> lined with the new product. You were invited to stick your
> bare arm down into the cylinder. In seconds, you could FEEL
> your own body heat being reflected back to your arm.
>
> There are camping/survival products commonly referred to as
> "space blankets" . . . again, a thin plastic (mylar I think)
> coated one side with a very shiny aluminum.
>
> I wonder if we couldn't increase the cold weather comfort
> of aircraft seats by incorporating a product like this into
> the upholstery . . . you might want to make it removable for
> warm weather. One might be able to save a lot of cost and
> complexity for cold weather cockpit comfort by conserving
> the heat your body already has as opposed to electrical/
> mechanical augmentation.
>
> Bob . . .
Another product, called "ensolite"(sp?) was sold by back-packing
outfitters as roll-up ground pads for sleeping bags. It's 3/8" thick
closed cell, beige or blue foam. The blue stuff is lighter and
bounces back more quickly after use. I frequently carry a 10"x14"
piece and use it as a seating pad at airshows, stadiums, long walks
etc. This stuff really keeps the backside warm and cushioned.
Like the bubble wrap this is an EXTEMELY effective insulator, very
light weight and certain to decrease the amount of cabin heating
needed for comfort.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 05/01/2001 2:53:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
<< I've got a Bob Archer com antenna in one wing tip connected to a Bob
Archer splitter then serving two com radios. I want to try this uncertified
method to eliminate external antennas. I've heard enough good reports on his
products to be satisfied. However, I would like to run RG-400 from the stack
to under the seats in case it isn't good enough. I want to make it quick and
easy to add a com ant. Is this the best spot in a RV6A? Who is happy with his
com ant below the belly? Norman Hunger RV6A Delta BC >>
Hello Norman,
1) Bob Archer makes splitters?
2) How are you going to keep one radio's transmission from blasting right
into the other radio's receiver and doing damage? Thanks.
OC Baker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Using a 14 volt alternator to produce 28 volts |
>
>
> I am pleased that you find the work useful. It's a lot
> of fun and very educational for me too.
>
> No secrets. A 14V alternator is fitted with a field
> winding that will not tolerate continuous application
> of anything more than about 15 volts. A 14V alternator
> will produce 28V if you spin it fast enough (NO problem
> with belt drive on Lycomings).
*** Actually, I understand that a "14V" alternator will produce
a hundred volts or so, if operated open loop. Way back when,
you could buy adaptors for your car that would run the alternator full
blast, and pipe the output to an "AC" outlet. You could run 110V
lightbulbs, and "AC/DC" power tools.
Of course, these were marketed by JC Whitney, who also sold
"miracle fuel-saver magnets", and "engine overhaul in a tube",
and many other products of dubious worth.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | uEncoder power supply |
Listers,
Just a heads up for those using Rocky Mountain Instruments MicroEncoders so
they don't make the same mistake I did: make sure you power your unit from
your avionics master switch or bus, which you will normally switch on
*after* engine start. I powered mine from a breaker on the main bus which is
energized whenever the master switch is on. During starter engagement your
bus voltage will drop to approximately 9.7 volts (measured mine). According
to Ron Mowrer at RMI anything below about 10.5 will cause the uEncoder to
reset itself to 29.92. Whenever it does this you not only lose your local
altimeter setting, and get an incorrect altitude of course, but the thing
sits there and flashes. Of course the display goes crazy during this reset.
It would have been no problem to wire it this way from the get go, but
nowhere in the manual does it mention this problem, and now I have all
breakers permanently mounted and placards engraved... grrr. The temporary
workaround is to move the power supply up to one of my avionics appliances.
This will function fine but leave my placarding incorrect and give me no way
to pull the breaker/power to just the uEncoder for troubleshooting. I'll
probably gang it on my intercom circuit.
Randy Lervold
RV-8, #80500, first flight probably thursday
www.rv-8.com
Home Wing VAF
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jayeandscott" <jayeandscott(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Higher Voltage |
You're right that higher voltage and AC cycles mean lighter components. I
remember changing reirc. fans on DC-8s that were rated at 16hp with a motor
no larger than a small pickle jar.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Duckett <perfeng(at)3rivers.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 8:46 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Higher Voltage
>
> Hi Floks,
> To answer a few questions about different voltages being explored by the
> auto makers...yes there are several different alternatives they are
> exploring.
> One of the biggest motivators is weight reduction of wiring and
> components in the systems. Those of you that are familiar with "Ohms
> Law" regarding voltage to amps as it relates to wiring size knows that a
> higher voltage requires smaller wiring. Over simplified, those of you
> that can remeber the old 6 Volt auto systems used huge (generally 4-0
> battery cables and 10-12 ga. main buss) wiring. Todays 12 Volt systems
> are half that size and weight. Most all the computer controls in late
> model cars invert some of the systems voltage to A.C. because of
> component size, better stability and more controlled signal.
> Ford is working on several A.C. systems upwards of 100 volt nominal.
> G.M. is researching both higher D.C. and A.C. systems. Some of the R&D
> that I've heard about dealing with A.C. is they are even playing with
> cycles in the 400 range. We're talking a main wire loom thats less than
> the size of your little finger, primary buss feeds being 18-24ga. The
> only problem I see is that if Ford goes one way, you can bet G.M. will
> go another and so on, just to be different...as they always have!
> Hope this helped.
>
> Jim Duckett
> Performance Engineering
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Using a 14 volt alternator to produce 28 volts |
>
>>
>>
>> I am pleased that you find the work useful. It's a lot
>> of fun and very educational for me too.
>>
>> No secrets. A 14V alternator is fitted with a field
>> winding that will not tolerate continuous application
>> of anything more than about 15 volts. A 14V alternator
>> will produce 28V if you spin it fast enough (NO problem
>> with belt drive on Lycomings).
>
>*** Actually, I understand that a "14V" alternator will produce
>a hundred volts or so, if operated open loop. Way back when,
>you could buy adaptors for your car that would run the alternator full
>blast, and pipe the output to an "AC" outlet. You could run 110V
>lightbulbs, and "AC/DC" power tools.
>
> Of course, these were marketed by JC Whitney, who also sold
>"miracle fuel-saver magnets", and "engine overhaul in a tube",
>and many other products of dubious worth.
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
About 40 years ago as alternators were first showing up on
production automobiles (you could buy an aftermarket alternator
as early as 1952), somebody discovered the wilingness of these
new machines to generate considerable voltage. One enterprising
experimenter wrote an article in some popular-electrics type
magazine for modifying your automotive alternator to produce
usable amounts of power to run things like drill motors and circular
saws.
You disconnect the b-lead from the car's bus and run it to an
outlet jack to fit your favorite power tool. You put a voltmeter
on the jack to see how much voltage was there. When the engine
was started, the regulator saw low bus volts and basically
turned on hard . . . a fixed battery voltage on the field.
The operator would then pull out on a throttle control until
engine RPMs were high enough for about 90 volts to show on
the voltmeter.
While most power tools are 120 VAC, they are series wound
motors that run more efficiently on DC . . . so you could
get satisfactory performance on 90-100 VDC. I went to
work for Electro-Mech here in Wichita the first time about
1972. They were just in the task of doing a recall on several
hundred kits they had sold to various jobbers to install
this outback-handyman's electric power source on their
cars. It seems that diodes on several makes of alternators
objected vociferously about 90-volt floggings. Instead
of petitioning the Semiconductor Rights Commission for
regulatory relief, they simply shorted out.
My new boss was faced with having to replace lots of
dead alternators in the cars of angry customers and decided
that the original article, while novel, wasn't commercially
practical. This application was able to coax 90+
volts out of a machine with 12 volts of field.
Nowadays, the diodes in alternators are MUCH more robust
and would probably perform very nicely as temporary sources
of high voltage for portable power applications. In any
case, a 14V alternator will put out 28V very nicely as long
as you don't overheat the field.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fran Malczynski" <ebafm(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Spike Catcher Diodes |
Bob, I saw the note on the alternator CB trip when the starter was engaged
being caused by the OV Crowbar module.
I have a OV crowbar module from you that has the red/black leads and
remember when I was testing my starter that it would indeed trip the
alternator breaker. I have a O360 with a Denso alternator and built in
regulator
Since I'm just about ready to install my forward top skin can I be incuded
in the swap /upgrade program on the OVM?
BTW, tried sending you direct E-Mail from ebafm(at)yahoo.com and your server
kept rejecting because it thought it was spam.
Thanks
Fran Malczynski
RV6 - N594EF
Olcott, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spike Catcher Diodes |
>
>Bob, I saw the note on the alternator CB trip when the starter was engaged
>being caused by the OV Crowbar module.
>
>I have a OV crowbar module from you that has the red/black leads and
>remember when I was testing my starter that it would indeed trip the
>alternator breaker. I have a O360 with a Denso alternator and built in
>regulator Since I'm just about ready to install my forward top skin can I be incuded
>in the swap /upgrade program on the OVM?
Which starter contactor are you using and does
IT have a spike catcher diode? We may not need to
mess with your OVM if there is a properly installed
spike catcher on your starter contactor.
>BTW, tried sending you direct E-Mail from ebafm(at)yahoo.com and your server
>kept rejecting because it thought it was spam.
Yeah . . . there's a BIG thing going on out in cyberspace
about "open relay" mail services . . . seems that when an
e-mail sending server is tested and found to accept mail
from anywhere for forwarding to anywhere, it gets black-listed
on some website set up to document and publish such data.
Some website hosts, my own included, subscribe to the data
and will block mail from any system that is blacklisted . .
for a time my own RoadRunner Cable mail system was on the
blacklist and lots of my mail bounced. That seems to have
gone away so I presume that RoadRunner has redeemed themselves
with the great arbiters of anti-spam . . . If mail to nuckolls
(at)aeroelectric.com bounces, try nuckolls(at)kscable.com.
>Thanks
>
>Fran Malczynski
>RV6 - N594EF
>Olcott, NY
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: uEncoder power supply |
Hi Randy,
How about a 1amp pull breaker mounted as a switch close to the U-encoder. It
seems that it would be real easy to drill a hole splice the breaker in line.
That way you could turn it on after you start the engine.
Just a thought....
Ed Perry
eperry(at)san.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Lervold <randy@rv-8.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 1:09 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: uEncoder power supply
>
> Listers,
>
> Just a heads up for those using Rocky Mountain Instruments MicroEncoders
so
> they don't make the same mistake I did: make sure you power your unit from
> your avionics master switch or bus, which you will normally switch on
> *after* engine start. I powered mine from a breaker on the main bus which
is
> energized whenever the master switch is on. During starter engagement your
> bus voltage will drop to approximately 9.7 volts (measured mine).
According
> to Ron Mowrer at RMI anything below about 10.5 will cause the uEncoder to
> reset itself to 29.92. Whenever it does this you not only lose your local
> altimeter setting, and get an incorrect altitude of course, but the thing
> sits there and flashes. Of course the display goes crazy during this
reset.
>
> It would have been no problem to wire it this way from the get go, but
> nowhere in the manual does it mention this problem, and now I have all
> breakers permanently mounted and placards engraved... grrr. The temporary
> workaround is to move the power supply up to one of my avionics
appliances.
> This will function fine but leave my placarding incorrect and give me no
way
> to pull the breaker/power to just the uEncoder for troubleshooting. I'll
> probably gang it on my intercom circuit.
>
> Randy Lervold
> RV-8, #80500, first flight probably thursday
> www.rv-8.com
> Home Wing VAF
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: uEncoder power supply |
>
>Listers,
>
>Just a heads up for those using Rocky Mountain Instruments MicroEncoders so
>they don't make the same mistake I did: make sure you power your unit from
>your avionics master switch or bus, which you will normally switch on
>*after* engine start. I powered mine from a breaker on the main bus which is
>energized whenever the master switch is on. During starter engagement your
>bus voltage will drop to approximately 9.7 volts (measured mine). According
>to Ron Mowrer at RMI anything below about 10.5 will cause the uEncoder to
>reset itself to 29.92. W
I'm really sorry to hear that this is STILL a problem with this
product. I've twisted Ron's arm about this several times but the
last time was years ago. There's REALLY no excuse for this from
an engineering perspective . . . we do microprocessor based devices
for airplanes all the time that do not go brain dead during
any kind of normal voltage transient . . . and cranking an engine
is a VERY NORMAL thing to do.
Maybe I need to rattle his cage again.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net> |
Original message:
This application was able to coax 90+
volts out of a machine with 12 volts of field.
Nowadays, the diodes in alternators are MUCH more robust
and would probably perform very nicely as temporary sources
of high voltage for portable power applications. In any
case, a 14V alternator will put out 28V very nicely as long
as you don't overheat the field.
Bob . . .
I had a Taurus , approx '86, that had an electrically heated windshield. It
worked by disconnecting the alternator from the battery and applying it 100%
to the windshield, at about 100 volts. Worked great as long as the battery
was new. The system would monitor battery voltage and when it dropped too
low it would shut the windshield heat off and go back to charging the
battery. For those that need electric heat in their planes it would be a
possibility - make up a controller that would do the same thing - when the
battery voltage drops reset it to charging and then go back to the "heat"
mode when the battery is charged. The car had a big 90 or 100-amp
alternator so at 100 volts it would produce about 10,000 watts of heat -
enough to melt ice on the windshield in maybe 30 seconds.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
I am interested in building a RANS S-12S with a Rotax
912S. I attended Bob's seminar in SLC, UT and have
since fabricated my electrical schematic. (A mere
combination of various elements of diagrams Z-1, Z-2!)
Anyhow, I've since learned that the Rotax 912S has a
built in Alternator??????????? Can anyone shed any
light on this for me? How can I incorporate my
proposed system with a built in Alt.?
Thanks.
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Website display problem |
>Bob,
> Please check the following page of your web site.
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bleadov.pdf
>
> I've found that the page displays normally when I use Netscape 4.76
>with Acrobat Reader (4.0) loading as a helper application. However, in
>Internet Explorer 5.01 (with Acrobat Reader plug-in) the page shows up.
>However, only part of the page can be displayed. When you scroll down to
>see the rest of the page, the entire image disappears. I had a friend
>double check this on his machine. He got identical results. I thought
>you might like to know this (if you didn't already know)
>Charlie Kuss
I've had lots of reports of this and it does the
same thing on my machine. I can't even get I.E.
to save the .pdf file in a proper format to hard
drive so that it can be opened independently of
I.E.
I've tried re-compiling .pdf files with various
versions of Acrobat but it doesn't help. I have to
assume it's a bug in the I.E./Acrobat interface.
Things work predictably and well with Netscape . . .
that's why I use it here 99% of the time and
distribute it on my CD_Rom
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Reflective Insulation |
>>Steve, try to look at the heated massage seat advertised on
>>http://www.Voyager.com the AA in-flight magazine. Put one over your seat
>as>a seat cover, 12V. and you'll probably be kept plenty warm. Why heat
air >to>heat your bod? Just a thought
" About 10 years ago, I recall a lumber yard demonstration of
" a new insulation product . . . the material was basically
" small pocket bubble pack with an aluminum reflective surface.
" The demo was simply a cylinder about 8" in diameter that was
" lined with the new product. You were invited to stick your
" bare arm down into the cylinder. In seconds, you could FEEL
" your own body heat being reflected back to your arm."
" There are camping/survival products commonly referred to as
" "space blankets" . . . again, a thin plastic (mylar I think)
" coated one side with a very shiny aluminum.
" I wonder if we couldn't increase the cold weather comfort
" of aircraft seats by incorporating a product like this into
" the upholstery . . . you might want to make it removable for
" warm weather. One might be able to save a lot of cost and
" complexity for cold weather cockpit comfort by conserving
" the heat your body already has as opposed to electrical/
" mechanical augmentation.
"Bob . . ."
Unfortunately I just tossed a brochure advertising either "Ayrfoil"
or "Airfoyl" - a two sided buble foil with cryogenically-coated aluminum
surfaces which comes in various medium sized rolls. It was advertised for
hard-to-reach wall sections on intitial installation because of rot- and
moistureproof qualities. It was expensive (compared to batts) but I thought
useful in small quantities. It was a U.S. company.
Ferg Kyle, Europa #A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matthew Decker <rmill2000(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Dimmers, MAC LED Indicators, EI LEDs and discoveries |
made
Hi listers
I just returned from the school of hard knocks and wanted to share some
info so others may have an easier journey. I'm sure these discoveries
have been discussed before, but I must have missed them.
1. Mac LED Indicators have a white wire that is used for dimming.
Hooking this wire up to your Aeroelectric dimmer WILL NOT produce the
desired results. The LED is engineered to have High and Low settings only
with nothing in between. The Low setting (night flying) is triggered when
voltage is sensed by this white wire. If you hook it up to the dimmer, it
will always be set to Low. I had to reroute this wire to my NAV lights so
I will only get Low with the Navs turned on.
2. The EI FL-2R fuel level indicator has an orange/white wire used for
dimming. It can be wired into a dimmer with the desired results as it
dims in reverse (As the the dimmer is turned up, the LEDs get less
bright). Nice touch, but is not mentioned in their installation manual.
Matt
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fran Malczynski" <ebafm(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spike Catcher Diodes |
Bob, I'm using the starter solenoid from Van's which I guess is an
automotive intermittant duty solenoid. The spike catcher is connected from
terminal 1 ("switch" s) terminal to the case ground. The red band of the
diode is connected to terminal 1.
Thanks
Fran Malczynski
RV6 - N594EF
Olcott, NY
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 20:48
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Spike Catcher Diodes
>
> >
> >Bob, I saw the note on the alternator CB trip when the starter was
engaged
> >being caused by the OV Crowbar module.
> >
> >I have a OV crowbar module from you that has the red/black leads and
> >remember when I was testing my starter that it would indeed trip the
> >alternator breaker. I have a O360 with a Denso alternator and built in
> >regulator Since I'm just about ready to install my forward top skin can I
be incuded
> >in the swap /upgrade program on the OVM?
>
> Which starter contactor are you using and does
> IT have a spike catcher diode? We may not need to
> mess with your OVM if there is a properly installed
> spike catcher on your starter contactor.
>
> >BTW, tried sending you direct E-Mail from ebafm(at)yahoo.com and your server
> >kept rejecting because it thought it was spam.
>
> Yeah . . . there's a BIG thing going on out in cyberspace
> about "open relay" mail services . . . seems that when an
> e-mail sending server is tested and found to accept mail
> from anywhere for forwarding to anywhere, it gets black-listed
> on some website set up to document and publish such data.
> Some website hosts, my own included, subscribe to the data
> and will block mail from any system that is blacklisted . .
> for a time my own RoadRunner Cable mail system was on the
> blacklist and lots of my mail bounced. That seems to have
> gone away so I presume that RoadRunner has redeemed themselves
> with the great arbiters of anti-spam . . . If mail to nuckolls
> (at)aeroelectric.com bounces, try nuckolls(at)kscable.com.
>
>
> >Thanks
> >
> >Fran Malczynski
> >RV6 - N594EF
> >Olcott, NY
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric heat |
>
>Original message:
>
> This application was able to coax 90+
> volts out of a machine with 12 volts of field.
>
> Nowadays, the diodes in alternators are MUCH more robust
> and would probably perform very nicely as temporary sources
> of high voltage for portable power applications. In any
> case, a 14V alternator will put out 28V very nicely as long
> as you don't overheat the field.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>I had a Taurus , approx '86, that had an electrically heated windshield. It
>worked by disconnecting the alternator from the battery and applying it 100%
>to the windshield, at about 100 volts. Worked great as long as the battery
>was new. The system would monitor battery voltage and when it dropped too
>low it would shut the windshield heat off and go back to charging the
>battery. For those that need electric heat in their planes it would be a
>possibility - make up a controller that would do the same thing - when the
>battery voltage drops reset it to charging and then go back to the "heat"
>mode when the battery is charged. The car had a big 90 or 100-amp
>alternator so at 100 volts it would produce about 10,000 watts of heat -
>enough to melt ice on the windshield in maybe 30 seconds.
>
>Gary Casey
An interesting proposal . . . I'm not sure I'd want to
cycle a battery that way . . . it would certainly shorten
its service life. You also run the risk of having it
be on the LOW side of its charging cycle when the alternator
craps and not be available for standby power. However,
I don't see why you couldn't combine something like
an L-60 alternator with the SD-20 and have the smaller
alternator run essential panel goodies, use the big
guy for heating tasks and keep the battery in reserve.
It would be possible to design a special regulator that
would run the big alternator at some much higher, non
battery supported voltage for special tasks like heat
and still be able to return to normal low voltage ops
as needed.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Reflective Insulation |
Fergkyle wrote:
>
>
> >>Steve, try to look at the heated massage seat advertised on
> >>http://www.Voyager.com the AA in-flight magazine. Put one over your seat
> >as>a seat cover, 12V. and you'll probably be kept plenty warm. Why heat
> air >to>heat your bod? Just a thought
>
> " About 10 years ago, I recall a lumber yard demonstration of
> " a new insulation product . . . the material was basically
> " small pocket bubble pack with an aluminum reflective surface.
> " The demo was simply a cylinder about 8" in diameter that was
> " lined with the new product. You were invited to stick your
> " bare arm down into the cylinder. In seconds, you could FEEL
> " your own body heat being reflected back to your arm."
> " There are camping/survival products commonly referred to as
> " "space blankets" . . . again, a thin plastic (mylar I think)
> " coated one side with a very shiny aluminum.
> " I wonder if we couldn't increase the cold weather comfort
> " of aircraft seats by incorporating a product like this into
> " the upholstery . . . you might want to make it removable for
> " warm weather. One might be able to save a lot of cost and
> " complexity for cold weather cockpit comfort by conserving
> " the heat your body already has as opposed to electrical/
> " mechanical augmentation.
> "Bob . . ."
>
> Unfortunately I just tossed a brochure advertising either "Ayrfoil"
> or "Airfoyl" - a two sided buble foil with cryogenically-coated aluminum
> surfaces which comes in various medium sized rolls. It was advertised for
> hard-to-reach wall sections on intitial installation because of rot- and
> moistureproof qualities. It was expensive (compared to batts) but I thought
> useful in small quantities. It was a U.S. company.
> Ferg Kyle, Europa #A064
>
Most building supply houses in major cities stock similar
products.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>I am interested in building a RANS S-12S with a Rotax
>912S. I attended Bob's seminar in SLC, UT and have
>since fabricated my electrical schematic. (A mere
>combination of various elements of diagrams Z-1, Z-2!)
>
>Anyhow, I've since learned that the Rotax 912S has a
>built in Alternator??????????? Can anyone shed any
>light on this for me? How can I incorporate my
>proposed system with a built in Alt.?
>
>Thanks.
You need to start with Figure Z-7 which is the
Rotax alternator wired to drive a simpler system.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM" <Kearns(at)pol.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Website display problem |
Is there a GA altimeter with a built in altitude deviation monitor and
audio panel interface? Thanks
Joe Kearns
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> >Bob,
> > Please check the following page of your web site.
> >
> >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bleadov.pdf
> >
> > I've found that the page displays normally when I use Netscape 4.76
> >with Acrobat Reader (4.0) loading as a helper application. However, in
> >Internet Explorer 5.01 (with Acrobat Reader plug-in) the page shows up.
> >However, only part of the page can be displayed. When you scroll down to
> >see the rest of the page, the entire image disappears. I had a friend
> >double check this on his machine. He got identical results. I thought
> >you might like to know this (if you didn't already know)
> >Charlie Kuss
>
> I've had lots of reports of this and it does the
> same thing on my machine. I can't even get I.E.
> to save the .pdf file in a proper format to hard
> drive so that it can be opened independently of
> I.E.
>
> I've tried re-compiling .pdf files with various
> versions of Acrobat but it doesn't help. I have to
> assume it's a bug in the I.E./Acrobat interface.
> Things work predictably and well with Netscape . . .
> that's why I use it here 99% of the time and
> distribute it on my CD_Rom
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Altitude display/deviation monitor |
>
>Is there a GA altimeter with a built in altitude deviation monitor and
>audio panel interface? Thanks
>Joe Kearns
I am aware of no instrument that provides this
function . . . although the MicoEncoder might.
You have to check their specs or perhaps someone
on the list has one and can elaborate.
There is a transponder monitoring device that
is quite popular with those who spend much time
taking to ATC . . . take a peek at
http://www.airsport-corp.com/altitude.html
for a variety of devices that will report what
your transponder (and encoder) are reporting
to the ground and will do the altitude deviation
alerting you asked about.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman Hunger" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: comm splitter |
> 1) Bob Archer makes splitters?
>
> 2) How are you going to keep one radio's transmission from blasting right
> into the other radio's receiver and doing damage? Thanks.
Yup, Bob makes a splitter that allows you to use one com antenna with two
com radios. I'm going to assume that you don't get to use both at once.
Give him a call at 310-316-8796. No website.
I'm trying this route to save drag, and weight. The cost of the splitter is
offset by not needing an antenna and a run of costly cable. I believe Comat
makes a version of the same but it was very expensive, like double? My
research is now a few years old.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronnie Brown" <rolandbrown(at)sprintmail.com> |
| Subject: | GA Altimeter with deviation and audio alert |
As Bob mentions, the Rocky Mountains Instruments Micro Encoder does indeed
have an altitude alert and audio output feature. However, this instrument
is not TSO'd and is designed for the experimental airplanes.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Altitude display/deviation monitor |
> >Is there a GA altimeter with a built in altitude deviation monitor and
> >audio panel interface? Thanks
> >Joe Kearns
Joe,
The Apollo SL 70 has a deviation monitor, but I don't know if it interfaces
with the audio panel.
See it at http://www.iimorrow.com/index.html
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Simple Drawing System |
>Dear Bob,
>I have your book The Aeroelectric Connection. I need to make a wiring schematic
for my Capella XLS. Is there a simple, easy to use drawing system which I
can either purchase or down load so I can use your standard drawings which, I
believe you said, are in Auto Cad. I am a professional engineer and I still hate
to draw hand made schematics. Thanks for your time and effort. The book
and disc are invaluable.
>Dale
Dale, I'm pleased that you've found the work useful. There is
a FREE AutoCAD compatible software package you can download
from http://www.cadopia.com It's a fairly large download
so unless you have a fast internet connection, you may
wish to have a friend download it over cable or DSL.
The package is also included on the latest version of
our CD_Rom info package (version 5.0 or higher). If you
choose to use the one from us, I'd appreciate it if you
would visit cadopia.com and register your software.
To do a download from their site, you have to register
first. If you get the software from us, then you just
register, start the download and then terminate it.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912S question |
>I am interested in building a RANS S-12S with a Rotax
>912S. I attended Bob's seminar in SLC, UT and have
>since fabricated my electrical schematic. (A mere
>combination of various elements of diagrams Z-1,
Z-2!)
>
>Thanks.
> You need to start with Figure Z-7 which is the
> Rotax alternator wired to drive a simpler system.
Bob:
If I start with the Z-7 diagram, can I still
incorporate the added features from the Z-1, 2
diagrams? (I haven't got access to that Z-7 diagram
right now....away on business)
Thanks.
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spike Catcher Diodes |
>
>Bob, I'm using the starter solenoid from Van's which I guess is an
>automotive intermittant duty solenoid. The spike catcher is connected from
>terminal 1 ("switch" s) terminal to the case ground. The red band of the
>diode is connected to terminal 1.
>
>Thanks
>
>Fran Malczynski
>RV6 - N594EF
>Olcott, NY
Okay, that's a good thing. Send me your OVM and I'll
upgrade it for you.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax 912S confusion |
(I forgot I could view the Z diagrams on the web..)
Bob:
I reviewed the Z-7 diagram but am still confused how
to plan my wiring of my potentially future RANS S-12S
with Rotax 912S. After the weekend seminar in Salt
Lake (I was the young guy in the middle of the "U") I
thought I was all set. However, after reviewing the
Z-7 figure, I see that MANY things are missing from
the comparable Z-1, Z-2 diagrams, which I HAD based my
electrical system off of.
What gives with the 912S and can I still try and use
my original design? I would be happy to email it to
you. I want an esential bus, OV protection and the
voltage regulation..... Or maybe it isn't necessary.
Your help would be greatly appreciated. THANKS!!!
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com> |
| Subject: | Altitude display/deviation monitor |
I looked at the microair website for information about their tiny comm
transceiver, and noticed that they are introducing a transponder that
appears to have some sort of altitude alerter in it. There's not a whole
lot of information of the website. People seem to like the comm radios,
especially for gliders and ultralights since they are small and light (and
cheap).
http://www.mcp.com.au/microair/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 11:41 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Altitude display/deviation monitor
>
>
> III"
>
> DO,MPH,FACOEM"
> >
> >Is there a GA altimeter with a built in altitude deviation
> monitor and
> >audio panel interface? Thanks
> >Joe Kearns
>
>
> I am aware of no instrument that provides this
> function . . . although the MicoEncoder might.
> You have to check their specs or perhaps someone
> on the list has one and can elaborate.
>
> There is a transponder monitoring device that
> is quite popular with those who spend much time
> taking to ATC . . . take a peek at
>
> http://www.airsport-corp.com/altitude.html
>
> for a variety of devices that will report what
> your transponder (and encoder) are reporting
> to the ground and will do the altitude deviation
> alerting you asked about.
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
> Nav lights are an interesting special case. Each light
> is only 2Amps suggesting that 22AWG would power the light.
> 25' of 22AWG is .4 ohms giving a voltage drop of 0.8 volts
> at 2A . . . a tad much. Dropping to 20AWG gives us
> a drop of 0.5 volts . . . okay. Now, we're tying
> three loads to one breaker and the wire needs to
> be rated for TOTAL load . . . in this case 20AWG is
> still okay attached to a 7A fuse.
>
Bob,
Now I'm confused, but that's not unusual.
When you say "rated for TOTAL load" I'm assuming you mean the wire from the
power source to the breaker. Each light will then have it's own wire from
the breaker to the light fixture. You are not saying that these wires have
to be able to carry the load of the other fixtures that have their own wire
from the breaker, are you?
Example;
If the Nav lights were 4 amps each instead of 2 amps, 14 awg would be needed
from the power source to the breaker, then 3 dedicated 20 awg wires from the
breaker to each individual fixture. Is this correct?
Thanks,
un-electric Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Altitude display/deviation monitor |
>
>I looked at the microair website for information about their tiny comm
>transceiver, and noticed that they are introducing a transponder that
>appears to have some sort of altitude alerter in it. There's not a whole
>lot of information of the website. People seem to like the comm radios,
>especially for gliders and ultralights since they are small and light (and
>cheap).
>
>http://www.mcp.com.au/microair/
I've been selling the Comm radios for about a year. I think
we've sold about a dozen and never heard back from any customer.
In this business, that's a GOOD thing. I have a stocking order
in for the T2000 transponder. I won't know about ALL of its
features for sure until I get my hands on them and can look
over the installation manual.
Reading the description at:
http://www.mcp.com.au/microair/category4_1.htm
. . . there are words, "Assigned altitude entry with
+/- buffer alert" that seem to imply some sort of
deviation monitor. As soon as I'm 100% sure about this
and how it is implemented, I'll add the radio to my
website catalog and publish the wiring diagrams to
go with it. As with the Comm radio, we'll sell the
T2000 with much of its harness pre-wired.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912S confusion |
>
>(I forgot I could view the Z diagrams on the web..)
>
>Bob:
>
>I reviewed the Z-7 diagram but am still confused how
>to plan my wiring of my potentially future RANS S-12S
>with Rotax 912S. After the weekend seminar in Salt
>Lake (I was the young guy in the middle of the "U") I
>thought I was all set. However, after reviewing the
>Z-7 figure, I see that MANY things are missing from
>the comparable Z-1, Z-2 diagrams, which I HAD based my
>electrical system off of.
>
>What gives with the 912S and can I still try and use
>my original design? I would be happy to email it to
>you. I want an esential bus, OV protection and the
>voltage regulation..... Or maybe it isn't necessary.
>
>Your help would be greatly appreciated. THANKS!!!
>
>Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
>http://auctions.yahoo.com/
You can always ADD an essential bus to Figure Z-7 . . . just
diode from the main bus to the e-bus for normal power
and add an alternate feed path directly from battery to the
E-bus . . . Figure Z-7 didn't have these features as
most folks (with only an 18A alternator) tend not
to load up their airplane for night or ifr flight.
You can get an ebus version of Z7 at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z7-ebus.pdf
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>
>
>> Nav lights are an interesting special case. Each light
>> is only 2Amps suggesting that 22AWG would power the light.
>> 25' of 22AWG is .4 ohms giving a voltage drop of 0.8 volts
>> at 2A . . . a tad much. Dropping to 20AWG gives us
>> a drop of 0.5 volts . . . okay. Now, we're tying
>> three loads to one breaker and the wire needs to
>> be rated for TOTAL load . . . in this case 20AWG is
>> still okay attached to a 7A fuse.
>>
>
>Bob,
>Now I'm confused, but that's not unusual.
>When you say "rated for TOTAL load" I'm assuming you mean the wire from the
>power source to the breaker. Each light will then have it's own wire from
>the breaker to the light fixture. You are not saying that these wires have
>to be able to carry the load of the other fixtures that have their own wire
>from the breaker, are you?
No, I'm saying that the breaker sized to carry 3 loads must be wired
with a conductor rated for THAT breaker. This means that three 2-amp
loads for a total of 6 amps have to be wired with wire sized to the
breaker, not the individual lamps. However, since one generally wants
to upsize the wire for voltage drop considerations - ESPECIALLY in
a composite aircraft where the wires run a round trip, then the wires
will already be OVERSIZED with respect to the breaker size which is
not a problem.
>Example;
>If the Nav lights were 4 amps each instead of 2 amps, 14 awg would be needed
>from the power source to the breaker, then 3 dedicated 20 awg wires from the
>breaker to each individual fixture. Is this correct?
No, if you had 4A each for total of 12, then you need a 15A breaker
which MUST drive wiring rated for 15A is all parts of the circuit.
Yes, this would be 14AWG wire - used everywhere in the circuit. You
could get a fault at an light fixture location that would be expected
to open a 15A breaker . . . you don't want to do that through 20AWG
wires.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912S question |
>
>Bob:
>
>If I start with the Z-7 diagram, can I still
>incorporate the added features from the Z-1, 2
>diagrams? (I haven't got access to that Z-7 diagram
>right now....away on business)
Depends on what you mean by "added features" . . .
since the Rotax is an 18A machine and uses
a totally unique regulator, there are some features
of Z1/Z2 that won't apply . . . but yes, there
are things you can do to Z-7 such as the variation
I just posted at:
www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z7-ebus.pdf
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Sizes
Send reply to: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Nav lights are an interesting special case. Each light
> >> is only 2Amps suggesting that 22AWG would power the light.
> >> 25' of 22AWG is .4 ohms giving a voltage drop of 0.8 volts
> >> at 2A . . . a tad much. Dropping to 20AWG gives us
> >> a drop of 0.5 volts . . . okay. Now, we're tying
> >> three loads to one breaker and the wire needs to
> >> be rated for TOTAL load . . . in this case 20AWG is
> >> still okay attached to a 7A fuse.
> >>
> >
> >Bob,
> >Now I'm confused, but that's not unusual.
> >When you say "rated for TOTAL load" I'm assuming you mean the wire from
> >the power source to the breaker. Each light will then have it's own wire
> >from the breaker to the light fixture. You are not saying that these
> >wires have to be able to carry the load of the other fixtures that have
> >their own wire from the breaker, are you?
>
> No, I'm saying that the breaker sized to carry 3 loads must be wired
> with a conductor rated for THAT breaker. This means that three 2-amp
> loads for a total of 6 amps have to be wired with wire sized to the
> breaker, not the individual lamps. However, since one generally wants to
> upsize the wire for voltage drop considerations - ESPECIALLY in a
> composite aircraft where the wires run a round trip, then the wires will
> already be OVERSIZED with respect to the breaker size which is not a
> problem.
>
>
> >Example;
> >If the Nav lights were 4 amps each instead of 2 amps, 14 awg would be
> >needed from the power source to the breaker, then 3 dedicated 20 awg
> >wires from the breaker to each individual fixture. Is this correct?
>
> No, if you had 4A each for total of 12, then you need a 15A breaker
> which MUST drive wiring rated for 15A is all parts of the circuit. Yes,
> this would be 14AWG wire - used everywhere in the circuit. You could
> get a fault at an light fixture location that would be expected to open
> a 15A breaker . . . you don't want to do that through 20AWG wires.
>
Bob
This brings up a point I hadn't thought about. Are the wiring
diagrams for a metal airplane or composite? It appears from this
post that I will need larger wires in my Glasair if the diagrams are
for metal airplanes. I assume this would only apply for the long
runs? (running lites, etc.)
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | uEncoder power supply/comments |
I contacted Ron at RMI and have included his reply (with his permission).
First, however a couple of comments are in order.
I can think of nothing negative to say about the quality of the RMI systems.
>From the basic design to the kit and final testing, its an outstanding
product.
As for low voltage during starting being a "Transient" and becomes operation
under low voltage, I must disagree with you Bob as cranking the starter can
take many seconds and this becomes steady state in terms of operation for
most electronics. While cranking the engine is "normal", designing for
operation under this condition is not normal in my experience. Auto
manufacturers remove power from the rest of the auto systems during
starting. Sure, you can design a "suspend or reset" circuit for this
condition but its so simple to avoid the condition why drive up the cost and
complexity of electronics?
The sometimes maligned "avionics master switch" is so simple to use and its
really a handy switch that allows the volume settings etc of the avionics to
be stored etc.
Also I have newly manufactured avionics that were designed years ago that do
not have transient protection built in so in my case an avionics master is
not really an option. Adding the RMI unit to that circuit is simple and I
think a smart thing to do. Subjecting ANY electronic (expensive) device to
the transients during start up and shutdown is not a good idea when there is
such a simple solution.
The 'OV' protection and other protection circuits Bob has designed and sells
are not, in my opinion, optional equipment. I feel the avionics master
switch is also a required part of any electrical system. If only to keep the
starting and shutdown checklist simple.
Paul
Here are Ron's comments on this subject.
"Sigh.... Here is what "really" happened when Randy's microEncoder was
"reset" to 29.92 InHg.
First, the microEncoder has a feature that most experimental pilots don't
get to see: when passing
through 18,000 feet the altimeter barometric setting is automatically
changed to 29.92 for flight
levels. At the same time, the altitude blinks as a reminder that the
barometric window has been set for
flight levels. It also blinks when descending through 18,000 as a reminder
that the barometric window
needs to be set for below flight level use.
Second, the A/D converter (a sensitive 22 bitter for you in the electronics
world) requires a
precision 10 volts to operate. At about 11.5 volts input, the accuracy of
the altimeter can be in
question. That's why the spec operation voltage is 12 to 31 volts (the
regulators shut down at
about 32 volts). By the time the input voltage is clear down to 9 to 10
volts, the A/D converter
for altitude is past losing accuracy and starts to jump around, also causing
the VSI to jump
around, AND IF ONE OF THE ERRONEOUSLY PROCESSED altitudes is over 18,000
feet,
the barometric window, as per neat feature, does its thing by changing to
29.92. NONE OF THIS
HARMS the unit or any of the other settings. As soon as the input voltage
is back in spec, the
pilot would need to press the ACK button to stop the blinking and set the
proper InHg in the
barometric window.
The microEncoder is protected from, and is not "going brain dead" from
voltage transients... it's
being operated way outside the specified voltage range. Since Randy's is
the first time I have
heard of this problem in the 13 year life of the microEncoder , I assume
that most builders put the
microEncoder on their avionics bus with the GPS, transponder etc. I hasten
to add that this
suggestion will be added to the installation manual.
Regards,
Ron Mowrer
Rocky Mountain Instrument"
>
>Listers,
>
>Just a heads up for those using Rocky Mountain Instruments MicroEncoders so
>they don't make the same mistake I did: make sure you power your unit from
>your avionics master switch or bus, which you will normally switch on
>*after* engine start. I powered mine from a breaker on the main bus which
is
>energized whenever the master switch is on. During starter engagement your
>bus voltage will drop to approximately 9.7 volts (measured mine). According
>to Ron Mowrer at RMI anything below about 10.5 will cause the uEncoder to
>reset itself to 29.92. W
I'm really sorry to hear that this is STILL a problem with this
product. I've twisted Ron's arm about this several times but the
last time was years ago. There's REALLY no excuse for this from
an engineering perspective . . . we do microprocessor based devices
for airplanes all the time that do not go brain dead during
any kind of normal voltage transient . . . and cranking an engine
is a VERY NORMAL thing to do.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hausding, Sid" <sid(at)freeway.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Altitude display/deviation monitor |
Bob, would you check (as a dealer) on the panel mount stack type
transponder. Same features as the round model, but the rectangular shaped
front panel for display.......I would be interested in when it will be
available from MicroAir, and if the price is the same, or cheaper than the
round face?
Sid
Alpena, Michigan
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:14 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Altitude display/deviation monitor
:
: >
: >I looked at the microair website for information about their tiny comm
: >transceiver, and noticed that they are introducing a transponder that
: >appears to have some sort of altitude alerter in it. There's not a whole
: >lot of information of the website. People seem to like the comm radios,
: >especially for gliders and ultralights since they are small and light
(and
: >cheap).
: >
: >http://www.mcp.com.au/microair/
:
: I've been selling the Comm radios for about a year. I think
: we've sold about a dozen and never heard back from any customer.
: In this business, that's a GOOD thing. I have a stocking order
: in for the T2000 transponder. I won't know about ALL of its
: features for sure until I get my hands on them and can look
: over the installation manual.
:
: Reading the description at:
: http://www.mcp.com.au/microair/category4_1.htm
:
: . . . there are words, "Assigned altitude entry with
: +/- buffer alert" that seem to imply some sort of
: deviation monitor. As soon as I'm 100% sure about this
: and how it is implemented, I'll add the radio to my
: website catalog and publish the wiring diagrams to
: go with it. As with the Comm radio, we'll sell the
: T2000 with much of its harness pre-wired.
:
:
: Bob . . .
: ---------------------------------------------------
: ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
: ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
: ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
: --------------------------------------------------
: http://www.aeroelectric.com
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>> >Example;
>> >If the Nav lights were 4 amps each instead of 2 amps, 14 awg would be
>> >needed from the power source to the breaker, then 3 dedicated 20 awg
>> >wires from the breaker to each individual fixture. Is this correct?
>>
>> No, if you had 4A each for total of 12, then you need a 15A breaker
>> which MUST drive wiring rated for 15A is all parts of the circuit. Yes,
>> this would be 14AWG wire - used everywhere in the circuit. You could
>> get a fault at an light fixture location that would be expected to open
>> a 15A breaker . . . you don't want to do that through 20AWG wires.
>>
>Bob
>
>This brings up a point I hadn't thought about. Are the wiring
>diagrams for a metal airplane or composite? It appears from this
>post that I will need larger wires in my Glasair if the diagrams are
>for metal airplanes. I assume this would only apply for the long
>runs? (running lites, etc.)
The diagrams are not for ANY kind of airplane . . . they are
examples of failure tolerant architecture for a variety of
mission profiles and accessory features that the builder
chooses to include on his engine and airframe.
There are means in the book for refining these diagrams to
cover specific applications. One consideration for wire sizing
is voltage drop and we've described a rule of thumb that
suggests that we limit it to less than 5% of system voltage. It's
still up to the builder to consider the wire lengths, add up
the numbers and make the decision for wire size or even CHOOSE
to ACCEPT a 6% voltage drop.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: uEncoder power supply/comments |
>
>I contacted Ron at RMI and have included his reply (with his permission).
>
>First, however a couple of comments are in order.
>
>I can think of nothing negative to say about the quality of the RMI systems.
> From the basic design to the kit and final testing, its an outstanding
>product.
Agreed!
>As for low voltage during starting being a "Transient" and becomes operation
>under low voltage, I must disagree with you Bob as cranking the starter can
>take many seconds and this becomes steady state in terms of operation for
>most electronics. While cranking the engine is "normal", designing for
>operation under this condition is not normal in my experience. Auto
>manufacturers remove power from the rest of the auto systems during
>starting. Sure, you can design a "suspend or reset" circuit for this
>condition but its so simple to avoid the condition why drive up the cost and
>complexity of electronics?
DO-160 is a test specification that everybody who sells to the
certified market signs up to. One of several power supply conditions
described includes brownout and/or momentary interruptions. The last
two products I designed that contained a microcontroller were
expected to work in this environment had low voltage detection as
part of the reset management for the microcontroller. Further, all
variables necessary for stable and predictable recovery from all
forms of low voltage were stored in flash memory or battery supported
RAM. These are jelly bean parts and techniques that are part and
parcel of modern (less than 10 year old) vehicular systems designs
. . aircraft and automotive. It adds nothing to hardware complexity
and cost and requires only microscopic changes to software.
RMI's problem is that while it's easy to include in the original
design, its "harder" to change an existing design . . . I've stubbed
my toe on this stone several times in years past. However, can't
push my shortcomings off on a customer by restricting on how my product
is used to achieve predictable and satisfactory operation. ESPECIALLY
when everyone else's product has signed up to the task.
I'm not suggesting anyone to perform to a standard that I do not also hold
up for myself and a LOT of other folks who build electro-whizzies
for airplanes.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: trim indicator |
>Dear Sir,
>
>I am building a Zenith Ch701 and am installing an electric trim control for the
elevator.
>My question is, Do you have a device to show the position of the trim? I need
an trim
>gauge and sender. If not, do you have any suggestions?
>
>Please rely to davida@mo-net.com
>Thanks Dave
What kind of trim motor are you using? If it's a MAC
servo actuator for a small trim tab, then you can purchase
an indicator to mate with the MAC's already built in
position transducer. If you need to ADD one to a system
that has no provisions for trim position indication, then
it becomes more complicated. You'll need to fit a potentiometer
of some type with the necessary mechanism to connect it to
trim tab motion. Does this system trim with a tab on the
elevator or do you move the whole stabilizer?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman Hunger" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
,
So I emailed these guys and asked what is coming out with a bigger screen.
I'm just trying to keep on top of the latest greatest color moving map. They
said Sharp is about to release a good 6 inch screen. Hitachi currently has
the Eplate at 8 inches but it is not very good in sunlight. They currently
recommend the 4 inch Ipaq.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: trim indicator |
The MAC company has been sold and the new name is Ray Allen Company (or
something like that). The father sold the business to his sons so nothing
has really changed except the name.
Ray Allen sells a "Position Sensor" that can be hooked to the trim tab (or
flap arm for that matter) that will give you a readout on their standard LED
display. It's about $30 and comes in .5, .7 and 1.2 inch travel.
http://www.rayallencompany.com/
Mike
>
>
> >Dear Sir,
> >
> >I am building a Zenith Ch701 and am installing an electric trim control
for the elevator.
> >My question is, Do you have a device to show the position of the trim?
I need an trim
> >gauge and sender. If not, do you have any suggestions?
> >
> >Please rely to davida@mo-net.com
> >Thanks Dave
>
>
> What kind of trim motor are you using? If it's a MAC
> servo actuator for a small trim tab, then you can purchase
> an indicator to mate with the MAC's already built in
> position transducer. If you need to ADD one to a system
> that has no provisions for trim position indication, then
> it becomes more complicated. You'll need to fit a potentiometer
> of some type with the necessary mechanism to connect it to
> trim tab motion. Does this system trim with a tab on the
> elevator or do you move the whole stabilizer?
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Mokry <robmokry(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: uEncoder power supply/comments |
Bob,
Is the gist of this post "not to leave my RMI uencoder and Engine Monitor on while
cranking? They
are both installed and working very well. I use the engine monitor to confirm fuel
pressure before
cranking and oil pressure during and directly after cranking and as such have been
leaving it on
from the first flick of the master. No problems yet in 45 hrs. am I inviting problems?
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >I contacted Ron at RMI and have included his reply (with his permission).
> >
> >First, however a couple of comments are in order.
> >
> >I can think of nothing negative to say about the quality of the RMI systems.
> > From the basic design to the kit and final testing, its an outstanding
> >product.
>
> Agreed!
>
> >As for low voltage during starting being a "Transient" and becomes operation
> >under low voltage, I must disagree with you Bob as cranking the starter can
> >take many seconds and this becomes steady state in terms of operation for
> >most electronics. While cranking the engine is "normal", designing for
> >operation under this condition is not normal in my experience. Auto
> >manufacturers remove power from the rest of the auto systems during
> >starting. Sure, you can design a "suspend or reset" circuit for this
> >condition but its so simple to avoid the condition why drive up the cost and
> >complexity of electronics?
>
> DO-160 is a test specification that everybody who sells to the
> certified market signs up to. One of several power supply conditions
> described includes brownout and/or momentary interruptions. The last
> two products I designed that contained a microcontroller were
> expected to work in this environment had low voltage detection as
> part of the reset management for the microcontroller. Further, all
> variables necessary for stable and predictable recovery from all
> forms of low voltage were stored in flash memory or battery supported
> RAM. These are jelly bean parts and techniques that are part and
> parcel of modern (less than 10 year old) vehicular systems designs
> . . aircraft and automotive. It adds nothing to hardware complexity
> and cost and requires only microscopic changes to software.
>
> RMI's problem is that while it's easy to include in the original
> design, its "harder" to change an existing design . . . I've stubbed
> my toe on this stone several times in years past. However, can't
> push my shortcomings off on a customer by restricting on how my product
> is used to achieve predictable and satisfactory operation. ESPECIALLY
> when everyone else's product has signed up to the task.
> I'm not suggesting anyone to perform to a standard that I do not also hold
> up for myself and a LOT of other folks who build electro-whizzies
> for airplanes.
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fran Malczynski" <ebafm(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spike Catcher Diodes |
Bob, thanks, put it in the mail to you today.
Fran Malczynski
RV6-N594EF
Olcott, NY
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 10:21
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Spike Catcher Diodes
>
> >
> >Bob, I'm using the starter solenoid from Van's which I guess is an
> >automotive intermittant duty solenoid. The spike catcher is connected
from
> >terminal 1 ("switch" s) terminal to the case ground. The red band of the
> >diode is connected to terminal 1.
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Fran Malczynski
> >RV6 - N594EF
> >Olcott, NY
>
> Okay, that's a good thing. Send me your OVM and I'll
> upgrade it for you.
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | RE: uEncoder power supply/comments |
Bob.
There seems to be a lot of avionics that do not meet DO-160 being sold today
(at least I seem to have acquired a lot). If you looked at the details of
the subject design its not a trivial change to make (Also the products that
make some of this storage simple was not available until a very few years
ago). I also have yet to see compliance with DO-160 as being part of the adv
specs etc.
In this case the only reading subject to change (not stored etc) is the baro
setting and this is something that ANY good pilot checks and sets EVERY time
the aircraft is ready to take off. I have seen large baro changes of several
hundred feet in less than the time to eat lunch . As the micro encoder also
is usually the baro that feeds your transponder, failure to check and set
the correct setting before every flight could cause you to get violated by
the FAA for being at the incorrect altitude. If the altitude is reset there
is plenty of warning so its not like there is no notice.
In any event there is no damage to the unit.
Paul
DO-160 is a test specification that everybody who sells to the
certified market signs up to. One of several power supply conditions
described includes brownout and/or momentary interruptions. The last
two products I designed that contained a microcontroller were
expected to work in this environment had low voltage detection as
part of the reset management for the microcontroller. Further, all
variables necessary for stable and predictable recovery from all
forms of low voltage were stored in flash memory or battery supported
RAM. These are jelly bean parts and techniques that are part and
parcel of modern (less than 10 year old) vehicular systems designs
. . aircraft and automotive. It adds nothing to hardware complexity
and cost and requires only microscopic changes to software.
RMI's problem is that while it's easy to include in the original
design, its "harder" to change an existing design . . . I've stubbed
my toe on this stone several times in years past. However, can't
push my shortcomings off on a customer by restricting on how my product
is used to achieve predictable and satisfactory operation. ESPECIALLY
when everyone else's product has signed up to the task.
I'm not suggesting anyone to perform to a standard that I do not also
hold
up for myself and a LOT of other folks who build electro-whizzies
for airplanes.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: uEncoder power supply/comments |
>
> hundred feet in less than the time to eat lunch . As the micro encoder also
> is usually the baro that feeds your transponder, failure to check and set
> the correct setting before every flight could cause you to get violated by
> the FAA for being at the incorrect altitude.
*** Huh?
Encoders feed PRESSURE ( unadjusted ) altitude to transponders. That's
as it should be, because that way the controllers know that everybody's on
the same page, for separation.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Software help (slightly off-topic) |
Judging from all the informative posts I see on this list there must be
somebody out there familiar with embedded software that might be able to
help me. I am putting together a series of Engine Management Systems and I
have lost my star programmer. Can anyone help or does anyone know anyone
that could help? The person would have to be familiar with the Motorola
HC12 controller as well as engine management techniques - the programming is
mostly complete and most of the effort is in modifications and upgrades to
existing code. I don't need full-time support so a moonlighter that is
willing to commit to a schedule occasionally would be perfect for the job.
Please reply to me off-list at: glcasey(at)gte.net.
Thanks for listening, er, reading!
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John W Livingston" <jliving(at)erinet.com> |
| Subject: | Software help (slightly off-topic) |
Garey,
Make sure you post this on the Avionics list. Lots of Software types
there.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
Casey
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 8:39 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Software help (slightly off-topic)
Judging from all the informative posts I see on this list there must be
somebody out there familiar with embedded software that might be able to
help me. I am putting together a series of Engine Management Systems and I
have lost my star programmer. Can anyone help or does anyone know anyone
that could help? The person would have to be familiar with the Motorola
HC12 controller as well as engine management techniques - the programming is
mostly complete and most of the effort is in modifications and upgrades to
existing code. I don't need full-time support so a moonlighter that is
willing to commit to a schedule occasionally would be perfect for the job.
Please reply to me off-list at: glcasey(at)gte.net.
Thanks for listening, er, reading!
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Software help (slightly off-topic) |
What is it programmed in? I'm not familiar with the HC12, but after a
couple dozen processors they all look familiar. I really don't have much
time, but I'd be interested in looking at it. If it is pretty close then it
might not be that much work.
Gary K.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Casey <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 8:39 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Software help (slightly off-topic)
>
> Judging from all the informative posts I see on this list there must be
> somebody out there familiar with embedded software that might be able to
> help me. I am putting together a series of Engine Management Systems and
I
> have lost my star programmer. Can anyone help or does anyone know anyone
> that could help? The person would have to be familiar with the Motorola
> HC12 controller as well as engine management techniques - the programming
is
> mostly complete and most of the effort is in modifications and upgrades to
> existing code. I don't need full-time support so a moonlighter that is
> willing to commit to a schedule occasionally would be perfect for the job.
> Please reply to me off-list at: glcasey(at)gte.net.
>
> Thanks for listening, er, reading!
>
> Gary Casey
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: uEncoder power supply/comments |
>
>Bob.
>
>There seems to be a lot of avionics that do not meet DO-160 being sold today
>(at least I seem to have acquired a lot). If you looked at the details of
>the subject design its not a trivial change to make (Also the products that
>make some of this storage simple was not available until a very few years
>ago). I also have yet to see compliance with DO-160 as being part of the adv
>specs etc.
If there are folks who determine that their marketplace appeal is
adequate in spite of a choice to ignore or leave out relatively
rudimentary systems integration features and capabilities . . .
then more power to them. This is America after all. My fondest
wishes are only that our readers understand what they're buying
so that they can make informed choices as to what they're paying
for and how the product may fall short of what's possible and
practical.
>In this case the only reading subject to change (not stored etc) is the baro
>setting and this is something that ANY good pilot checks and sets EVERY time
>the aircraft is ready to take off. I have seen large baro changes of several
>hundred feet in less than the time to eat lunch . As the micro encoder also
>is usually the baro that feeds your transponder, failure to check and set
>the correct setting before every flight could cause you to get violated by
>the FAA for being at the incorrect altitude. If the altitude is reset there
>is plenty of warning so its not like there is no notice.
The Mode C data is pressure altitude, i.e., set to 29.92". This is
equally true whether you are using a blind encoder, or an
encoding altimeter. (If it weren't so, the
controller would have to know what type of encoder
you are using.) Usually there will be a substantial
difference between pressure altitude and the reading
shown on the altimeter. Often hundreds of feet.
Turn your barometric adjust knob on your altimeter from
one end to the other, and see how much difference it makes in
the altitude reading. On most altimeters, it's about 2700 ft.)
For the uEncoder to function in the current system, it has to
feed unadjusted pressure altitude to the transponder before
the reading is adjusted against local baro for display to the
pilot . . .
The controller sees the same reading on his scope
that the pilot sees on the altimeter, if both are using
the same barometric setting. It is possible, indeed likely,
that another ATC facility is indicating this aircraft at a
different altitude, since the barometric pressure varies
from one location to another.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: uEncoder power supply/comments |
>
>Bob,
>Is the gist of this post "not to leave my RMI uencoder and Engine Monitor on while
cranking? They
>are both installed and working very well. I use the engine monitor to confirm
fuel pressure before
>cranking and oil pressure during and directly after cranking and as such have
been leaving it on
>from the first flick of the master. No problems yet in 45 hrs. am I inviting
problems?
I don't believe the hardware is at any risk of damage.
It just forgets the baormetric pressure setting. If you
set baro after the engine starts, then it's never an issue
for you. If your uEncoder retains its baro setting, then
you probably have a well wired system with well maintained
battery that will crank your engine while holding voltage
levels above that which cause amnesia in the uEncoder.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Software help (slightly off-topic) |
>
> Garey,
> Make sure you post this on the Avionics list. Lots of Software types
> there.
*** Hi John,
Where is this Avionics list?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | RE: uEncoder power supply/comments |
>
> hundred feet in less than the time to eat lunch . As the micro encoder
also
> is usually the baro that feeds your transponder, failure to check and set
> the correct setting before every flight could cause you to get violated by
> the FAA for being at the incorrect altitude.
*** Huh?
Encoders feed PRESSURE ( unadjusted ) altitude to transponders. That's
as it should be, because that way the controllers know that everybody's on
the same page, for separation.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
Jerry and (Bob in a different post) appears to have missed my point.
I agree with Jerry's comments. My point is if the pilot does not check and
set the altimeter properly before each takeoff its possible for the
displayed altitude to be incorrect and he ends up flying at an indicated
altitude of say 3000 ft when the corrected for local pressure ATC is using
says 3500ft. As a front passes its possible for the indicated altitude to
change several hundred feet in less than one hour.
Flying in the ATC system requires constant changes of baro settings as you
pass from one control center to another. That is if you want to fly at the
same altitude you are reporting to the ground
My comments all stem from the possibility of the micro encoder glitching
during start up and the objections to this. I repeat that good pilots check
and set the altimeter at the end of the runway NOT where the engine is
started so IF there is a glitch that resets the micro encoder to flight
above 18000 ft its no big deal, and you do get lots of warning from the
micro encoder.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Software help (slightly off-topic) |
>
>*** Hi John,
>
> Where is this Avionics list?
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
Jerry -
Go to:
http://www.matronics.com/emaillists/
Scroll down to:
"Additional General Interest Internet Email Groups"
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Field <jfield(at)pressenter.com> |
| Subject: | B-lead protection |
I have a 40 amp alternator and I'm planning on using 8gage wire for the
B-lead. B+C sold me a 70amp inline current limiter and suggested it would
be an appropiate size. Is this combination OK? I've had someone suggest
that the fuse is too large and would not protect the B-lead. He thought an
in-line fusable link of 12gage wire would be correct. Any suggestions?
Thanks John Field RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B-lead protection |
>
>I have a 40 amp alternator and I'm planning on using 8gage wire for the
>B-lead. B+C sold me a 70amp inline current limiter and suggested it would
>be an appropiate size. Is this combination OK? I've had someone suggest
>that the fuse is too large and would not protect the B-lead. He thought an
>in-line fusable link of 12gage wire would be correct. Any suggestions?
>Thanks John Field RV-4
The 80A fuse is fine for even an 8AWG b-lead . . . keep in mind that
an alternator is incapable of putting out more than 20% of its
rated value under ANY conditions. To prevent nuisance tripping of
the alternator b-lead protection, you need to size it for at least
20% more than rated output . . . hence the 80A fuse that we offer
for 60A alternators.
Now, consider the only other fault that an alternator can present
to the bus that would cause greater than rated output current to
flow . . . these are hard faults in wiring or shorted diodes.
Both are VERY rare in modern alternators and they well be VERY
large currents . . . on the order of 400 amps or more. An 80A
fuse will open in milliseconds . . . before an 8AWG wire would
even have time to warm up, much less smoke.
Fuses are very fast compared to circuit breakers . . . this is
why the one size, while appearing to be much too big, is okay
for the wide range of alternators found on amateur built airplanes.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Software help |
Where is this Avionics list?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
============================================================
Same place as the AeroElectric-List
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Kay <skay(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: B-lead protection |
Bob, just to check if you really are human. Didn't you mean an alternator IS Capable
of putting
out 20% more?
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >I have a 40 amp alternator and I'm planning on using 8gage wire for the
> >B-lead. B+C sold me a 70amp inline current limiter and suggested it would
> >be an appropiate size. Is this combination OK? I've had someone suggest
> >that the fuse is too large and would not protect the B-lead. He thought an
> >in-line fusable link of 12gage wire would be correct. Any suggestions?
> >Thanks John Field RV-4
>
> The 80A fuse is fine for even an 8AWG b-lead . . . keep in mind that
> an alternator is incapable of putting out more than 20% of its
> rated value under ANY conditions. To prevent nuisance tripping of
> the alternator b-lead protection, you need to size it for at least
> 20% more than rated output . . . hence the 80A fuse that we offer
> for 60A alternators.
>
> Now, consider the only other fault that an alternator can present
> to the bus that would cause greater than rated output current to
> flow . . . these are hard faults in wiring or shorted diodes.
> Both are VERY rare in modern alternators and they well be VERY
> large currents . . . on the order of 400 amps or more. An 80A
> fuse will open in milliseconds . . . before an 8AWG wire would
> even have time to warm up, much less smoke.
>
> Fuses are very fast compared to circuit breakers . . . this is
> why the one size, while appearing to be much too big, is okay
> for the wide range of alternators found on amateur built airplanes.
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
Hi Bob,
I am building a couple pieces of avionics - just some simple things, not
critical to flight - and was re-reading your essay on doing without the
avionics switch, which I agree with and will adopt in my plane.
In the essay, you mention that it is trivial to add a couple of components
to make a piece of gear DO-160 compliant. Since I am the builder of my
experimental avionics, I know it doesn't meet the DO-160, but I would like
it to. I am hoping there are one or two inexpensive components I can lay
across the +12 and ground to accomplish this. Could you tell me what
components, part numbers, etc. would do this?
Thanks,
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | plaurene(at)stis.net |
"Electric Bob"
Bob,
In doing a load analysis for the UPS Apollo SL 30 Nav/Com, the following are the
power requirements:
Nav-325ma to 500 ma Max. The Com side- 270ma to 2.0A max for recieve and 2.1A
to 3.2 A transmit.
Could one use a margin of 25% of the max amps? i.e. 2A fuse for the Nav and a 5
A fuse (the next up from 4amps)
thanx
peter laurence
Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John W Livingston" <jliving(at)erinet.com> |
| Subject: | Software help (slightly off-topic) |
Jerry,
Another matronics list, of course.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jerome
Kaidor
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Software help (slightly off-topic)
>
> Garey,
> Make sure you post this on the Avionics list. Lots of Software types
> there.
*** Hi John,
Where is this Avionics list?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B-lead protection |
>
>Bob, just to check if you really are human. Didn't you mean an alternator IS Capable
of putting
>out 20% more?
Oops . . . make that 120% of rated or 20% in excess of . . .
Thanks!
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | DO-160 in a nutshell . . . |
Hi Bob,
I am building a couple pieces of avionics - just some simple things, not
critical to flight - and was re-reading your essay on doing without the
avionics switch, which I agree with and will adopt in my plane.
In the essay, you mention that it is trivial to add a couple of components
to make a piece of gear DO-160 compliant. Since I am the builder of my
experimental avionics, I know it doesn't meet the DO-160, but I would like
it to. I am hoping there are one or two inexpensive components I can lay
across the +12 and ground to accomplish this. Could you tell me what
components, part numbers, etc. would do this?
Thanks,
Gary Liming
It's a tad more complicated. I've been contemplating
an article to boil down the more meaningful parts of
DO-160 for folks building non-certified stuff . . . but
in a nutshell:
First, DO-160 is not a REQUIREMENT of any order, rather
a listing of various tests recommended to show any particular
piece of equipment is (1) not subject to damage from the
aircraft environment (2) not vulnerable to common noises
and (3) does not itself generate noises unacceptable to
other system in the airplane. DO-160 was crafted by
a large committee of representatives from industry,
aviation user groups, and of course government. The
document is a middle of the road recommendation for
tests that do a pretty good job of balancing what is
NEEDED against what is POSSIBLE and PRACTICAL . . .
a much better document than you will get from any
agency of government.
When a manufacturer tests to DO-160, they may not (and
in fact probably won't) do ALL of the tests prescribed.
There is a coding scheme by which the product can be
labeled as tested to DO-160, what tests, and to what
levels of stress. More on that in the article.
Power input: Try to make your gizmo work as specified
over the range of 13.0 to 15.0 volts and function with
perhaps degraded but still useful performance down to
10.5 volts (end of battery life).
Bus Noise: Expect noise on the bus ranging from 10
to 100 Hz ramping upward zero volts pk-pk to 1.5
volts pk-pk. Then from 100 Hz to 1000 Hz, at
1.5 volts pk-pk constant. Finaly 1000Hz to 10,000 Hz
with the amplitude ramping downward from 1.5 volts
pk-pk to zero at 10KHz. A sine wave "noise" is
satisfactory for testing.
Interruptions: Test for all manner of interruption
and brownout. Your gizmo should not be damaged by any
downward excursions of power supply for any duration
and levels down to and including zero volts. The gizmo
can fail to function below 10.5 volts but should come
back to normal operation without pilot intervention when
the bus returns to normal.
Surges: Can you take 20 volts for 1 second with no
damage to your product? Can you take 40 volts
for 100 milliseconds? For small electro-whizzies
a simple shunt regulated zener or active device
(FET or Transistor) supply can be configured to
take these hits. For larger current draws, you
might have to add an active pass transistor,
or other power supply designed to handle at least
40 volts.
My first full blown DO-160 qual was for the first
multi-speed pitch trim systems to go on a GA bizjet.
First for the new model 55 Learjet and ultimately
retrofitted to the Learjet fleet. In a 28 volt system I had
to stand off 80 volts for 100 MILLISECONDS. With
a little judicious selection of parts, I demonstrated
this portion of the test by cranking up the power supply
from 28v nominal to 80 volts while the trim system was
running . . . the motor speed didn't change a bit.
I turned to the FAA inspector who came over to witness
the test and asked, "okay, is that long enough?" The
supply was 80 volts for several seconds and well over
28 volts for 10 SECONDS during the demonstration. I got
no arguments about the 80 volt surge test.
300V Spike: There's a test you can conduct that
feeds a short duration spike of up to 300 volts into
the 14V input of your gizmo . . . it's easy to pass
this test with a 10uF capacitor (rated for 40v surge
of course) right across the input.
Temperature Altitude: There are LOTS of categories
but cabin mounted gizmos for our airplanes would
be rated for up to 15,000 feet and operating
temperatures of -40 to +55 degrees C. Except where
there are issues surrounding forced air cooling,
I've never had a concern about altitude effects.
The biggest stumbling block is adequate cooling
for high temp ops and those are short lived . .
(sun-soak on ramp in Phoenix . . . cools rapidly
once airborne).
Vibration: There are lots of categories here too
. . . but unless you're going to mount the gizmo directly
on the engine or landing gear, very ordinary fabrication
techniques will suffice. In this day of surface mount
components, it's REALLY easy to build for robustness.
I'm doing a solid state power distribution assembly
for a new target at RAC that launches at 30 g's linear
acceleration and subjects me to 10-20 g's of
acoustic noise vibration in flight. But because
I'm now all solid state and surface mounted, it's
going the be about the easiest qualification I've
ever done.
If you have any components that stand up from an
etched circuit board on little solid wire leads,
it's a good idea to tack the critters to the board
with adhesive (Sho-Goo, Leech F-26 liquid nails,
electronic grade RTV are all good possibilities.
NO garden variety epoxies . . .)
Gunks, goos, grit bad gas and death by athlete's foot:
Consider all forms of wet. Water, hydraulic fluid,
fuel, oil. Gonna keep it out or always mount it where
it doesn't matter? How about sand/dust? If you're
under the cowl and have any moving parts, this should
be considered. There's also a test for fungus. This
is routinely bought off with a statement in the
qualification document that there are, "no materials
that are nutrients to fungus used in the fabrication
of this device." How about ozone . . . lots of it
under the cowl that will eat up may forms of plastic
finishes and insulations.
Radio noise: You can spend big bux having the full
range of frequencies tested in a lab but you can do
a quick looksee with a handheld vhf comm and gps
receiver. Do any of these critters complain or seem
to hear noise when operated in close proximity to
your product?
Radio Susceptibility: Key up the handheld transmitter
while holding it's antenna close to your gizmo and its
interconnecting wires. Does this upset its normal
operation?
Electo-Static Discharge: Can you hold your gizmo
in hand and shuffle across the carpet and safely
draw a body-static spark to any pin in your input/
output connector? This isn't hard to design for
and I generally don't bother to test for it any
more . . if you have potentially vulnerable
pins, let's talk about it.
Lightning: This is a BIG thing with the FAA now
which I choose to ignore for amateur built aircraft
projects. It's not terribly difficult to design
for lighting protection but it drives up costs and
parts count. Further, I figure if a pilot has gotten
himself into a high lightning (or ice) risk,
whether or not MY gizmo works is the least of
his problems.
This is a top-of-the-head 25-cent tour of DO-160
as it might apply to your project. I don't think I've
missed anything but I'll check this e-mail for
completeness against the BIG book tomorrow. If you'd
care to share a schematic of your product with
me, I can scratch some recommendations onto it
based upon a whole lot of smoke I've smelled in
the lab . . . no sense in letting any smoke out
of your parts if it's easy to avoid.
While not DO-160 recommendations, my personal
suggestions for i/o is use D-sub connectors for
as much of your wiring needs as possible. The solid
state power distribution assembly for the new target
is ALL d-sub connectors in spite of the fact that
three outputs are rated at over 20A continuous and
one input is rated for 40A continuous. There are
ways to make this work that allow you to take
advantage of a wide variety of relatively low
cost connectors and tools with military qualified
pins at the critical junctures in the connector.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ammeter switch |
Bob
If I am running a dual alternator system and I want to use a
2-TP201-5 micro switch to toggle the ammeter, could I use the
other side of the switch to toggle the volt meter. I would only need
1 switch to handle both functions?
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ammeter switch |
<200105070522.WAA03649@Dr-Teeth.eucleides.com>
>Bob
>
>another question has come up. Does the over voltage light from
>LR-3 come on when there is no voltage/battery only voltage, as well
>as over voltage? This could alert me to both an over voltage as well
>as a failed alternator situation. I would then have a back up
>warning system to alert me if my switch was on the wrong
>alternator.
The LR-3's warning light is for low voltage only.
You don't WANT to get a warning of OVER voltage
because by the time you can physically react to
it, it may be too late. This is why we built the
OV protection into the LR-3 . . . a few milliseconds
after an OV condition, you'll get a trip of the
field breaker that shuts off the alternator. A few
seconds later, you have a LOW voltage condition
and the light begins to flash and let you know
about it.
You speak of the alternator switch in a singular
sense . . . Weren't we talking about dual-battery,
dual-alternator installation? In this case, each
LR-3 is responsible for annunciating the failure
of its own system.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Oberst" <joberst(at)columbus.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B-lead protection |
Bob - I have a 60A B&C alternator in my Glasair. I have put a 70A circuit
breaker I bought from Aircraft Spruce in the engine compartment, on the
firewall, to protect the B-lead (which is 4 gage). I see a lot of talk
about fuses. Is the circuit breaker OK?
Jim Oberst
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 2:35 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: B-lead protection
>
> >
> >I have a 40 amp alternator and I'm planning on using 8gage wire for the
> >B-lead. B+C sold me a 70amp inline current limiter and suggested it would
> >be an appropiate size. Is this combination OK? I've had someone suggest
> >that the fuse is too large and would not protect the B-lead. He thought
an
> >in-line fusable link of 12gage wire would be correct. Any suggestions?
> >Thanks John Field RV-4
>
>
> The 80A fuse is fine for even an 8AWG b-lead . . . keep in mind that
> an alternator is incapable of putting out more than 20% of its
> rated value under ANY conditions. To prevent nuisance tripping of
> the alternator b-lead protection, you need to size it for at least
> 20% more than rated output . . . hence the 80A fuse that we offer
> for 60A alternators.
>
> Now, consider the only other fault that an alternator can present
> to the bus that would cause greater than rated output current to
> flow . . . these are hard faults in wiring or shorted diodes.
> Both are VERY rare in modern alternators and they well be VERY
> large currents . . . on the order of 400 amps or more. An 80A
> fuse will open in milliseconds . . . before an 8AWG wire would
> even have time to warm up, much less smoke.
>
> Fuses are very fast compared to circuit breakers . . . this is
> why the one size, while appearing to be much too big, is okay
> for the wide range of alternators found on amateur built airplanes.
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re:Alternator filter |
Bob:
Would you please give me some values and a source for an inductor or choke
coil for a 12 volt alternator system.
thanks,
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B-lead protection |
>
>Bob - I have a 60A B&C alternator in my Glasair. I have put a 70A circuit
>breaker I bought from Aircraft Spruce in the engine compartment, on the
>firewall, to protect the B-lead (which is 4 gage). I see a lot of talk
>about fuses. Is the circuit breaker OK?
>
>Jim Oberst
Give it a try. First, you're aware of the potential for
nuisance tripping of this breaker. You're probably also
well equipped with a "plan-b" that deals effectively and
comfortably with alternator failure. Soooo . . . I see
no risk in seeing how the breaker selection works for
you.
The only situation where you're likely to experience
a nuisance trip is by running your battery down to dead,
Dead, DEAD. Hand propping or using ground power to start
the engine (you may HAVE to use ground power if the
battery is too flat to close the battery contactor)
and then loading the alternator up with system loads
-AND- battery recharge loads.
IF . . . every operator of an airplane would run the
engine at something just above taxi speeds for say . . .
10 minutes after cranking up with a dead battery, this
would never be a problem . . . it has happened to me
once under exactly these circumstances. When I punched
the breaker in after the in-flight trip, something
else died in the system and I didn't get the alternator
back.
It's an easy situation to plan for, implement, avoid
and even deal with should it happen. Don't loose any
sleep over it.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: trim indicator |
>Thanks Bob for the reply. The Ch701 uses a trim tab and I am using a small cordless
screw driver (3.6 Volts) as a motor for a jack screw trim motor. This is
what experimental aircraft building is all about. Again thanks for your reply..
>
>Dave
You got that right! How many revolutions for full stroke of
your trim system. How many inches of stroke on the
jack screw traveler?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | DO-160 in a nutshell (part 1) |
Hi Bob,
I am building a couple pieces of avionics - just some simple things, not
critical to flight - and was re-reading your essay on doing without the
avionics switch, which I agree with and will adopt in my plane.
In the essay, you mention that it is trivial to add a couple of components
to make a piece of gear DO-160 compliant. Since I am the builder of my
experimental avionics, I know it doesn't meet the DO-160, but I would like
it to. I am hoping there are one or two inexpensive components I can lay
across the +12 and ground to accomplish this. Could you tell me what
components, part numbers, etc. would do this?
Thanks,
Gary Liming
It's a tad more complicated. I've been contemplating
an article to boil down the more meaningful parts of
DO-160 for folks building non-certified stuff . . . but
in a nutshell:
First, DO-160 is not a REQUIREMENT of any order, rather
a listing of various tests recommended to show any particular
piece of equipment is (1) not subject to damage from the
aircraft environment (2) not vulnerable to common noises
and (3) does not itself generate noises unacceptable to
other system in the airplane. DO-160 was crafted by
a large committee of representatives from industry,
aviation user groups, and of course government. The
document is a middle of the road recommendation for
tests that do a pretty good job of balancing what is
NEEDED against what is POSSIBLE and PRACTICAL . . .
a much better document than you will get from any
agency of government.
When a manufacturer tests to DO-160, they may not (and
in fact probably won't) do ALL of the tests prescribed.
There is a coding scheme by which the product can be
labeled as tested to DO-160, what tests, and to what
levels of stress. More on that in the article.
Power input: Try to make your gizmo work as specified
over the range of 13.0 to 15.0 volts and function with
perhaps degraded but still useful performance down to
10.5 volts (end of battery life).
Bus Noise: Expect noise on the bus ranging from 10
to 100 Hz ramping upward zero volts pk-pk to 1.5
volts pk-pk. Then from 100 Hz to 1000 Hz, at
1.5 volts pk-pk constant. Finaly 1000Hz to 10,000 Hz
with the amplitude ramping downward from 1.5 volts
pk-pk to zero at 10KHz. A sine wave "noise" is
satisfactory for testing.
Interruptions: Test for all manner of interruption
and brownout. Your gizmo should not be damaged by any
downward excursions of power supply for any duration
and levels down to and including zero volts. The gizmo
can fail to function below 10.5 volts but should come
back to normal operation without pilot intervention when
the bus returns to normal.
Surges: Can you take 20 volts for 1 second with no
damage to your product? Can you take 40 volts
for 100 milliseconds? For small electro-whizzies
a simple shunt regulated zener or active device
(FET or Transistor) supply can be configured to
take these hits. For larger current draws, you
might have to add an active pass transistor,
or other power supply designed to handle at least
40 volts.
My first full blown DO-160 qual was for the first
multi-speed pitch trim systems to go on a GA bizjet.
First for the new model 55 Learjet and ultimately
retrofitted to the Learjet fleet. In a 28 volt system I had
to stand off 80 volts for 100 MILLISECONDS. With
a little judicious selection of parts, I demonstrated
this portion of the test by cranking up the power supply
from 28v nominal to 80 volts while the trim system was
running . . . the motor speed didn't change a bit.
I turned to the FAA inspector who came over to witness
the test and asked, "okay, is that long enough?" The
supply was 80 volts for several seconds and well over
28 volts for 10 SECONDS during the demonstration. I got
no arguments about the 80 volt surge test.
300V Spike: There's a test you can conduct that
feeds a short duration spike of up to 300 volts into
the 14V input of your gizmo . . . it's easy to pass
this test with a 10uF capacitor (rated for 40v surge
of course) right across the input.
Temperature Altitude: There are LOTS of categories
but cabin mounted gizmos for our airplanes would
be rated for up to 15,000 feet and operating
temperatures of -40 to +55 degrees C. Except where
there are issues surrounding forced air cooling,
I've never had a concern about altitude effects.
The biggest stumbling block is adequate cooling
for high temp ops and those are short lived . .
(sun-soak on ramp in Phoenix . . . cools rapidly
once airborne).
. . . for part 2 see next post . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | DO-160 in a nutshell (part 2) |
. . . see earlier post for part 1 . . .
Vibration: There are lots of categories here too
. . . but unless you're going to mount the gizmo directly
on the engine or landing gear, very ordinary fabrication
techniques will suffice. In this day of surface mount
components, it's REALLY easy to build for robustness.
I'm doing a solid state power distribution assembly
for a new target at RAC that launches at 30 g's linear
acceleration and subjects me to 10-20 g's of
acoustic noise vibration in flight. But because
I'm now all solid state and surface mounted, it's
going the be about the easiest qualification I've
ever done.
If you have any components that stand up from an
etched circuit board on little solid wire leads,
it's a good idea to tack the critters to the board
with adhesive (Sho-Goo, Leech F-26 liquid nails,
electronic grade RTV are all good possibilities.
NO garden variety epoxies . . .)
Gunks, goos, grit bad gas and death by athlete's foot:
Consider all forms of wet. Water, hydraulic fluid,
fuel, oil. Gonna keep it out or always mount it where
it doesn't matter? How about sand/dust? If you're
under the cowl and have any moving parts, this should
be considered. There's also a test for fungus. This
is routinely bought off with a statement in the
qualification document that there are, "no materials
that are nutrients to fungus used in the fabrication
of this device." How about ozone . . . lots of it
under the cowl that will eat up may forms of plastic
finishes and insulations.
Radio noise: You can spend big bux having the full
range of frequencies tested in a lab but you can do
a quick looksee with a handheld vhf comm and gps
receiver. Do any of these critters complain or seem
to hear noise when operated in close proximity to
your product?
Radio Susceptibility: Key up the handheld transmitter
while holding it's antenna close to your gizmo and its
interconnecting wires. Does this upset its normal
operation?
Electo-Static Discharge: Can you hold your gizmo
in hand and shuffle across the carpet and safely
draw a body-static spark to any pin in your input/
output connector? This isn't hard to design for
and I generally don't bother to test for it any
more . . if you have potentially vulnerable
pins, let's talk about it.
Lightning: This is a BIG thing with the FAA now
which I choose to ignore for amateur built aircraft
projects. It's not terribly difficult to design
for lighting protection but it drives up costs and
parts count. Further, I figure if a pilot has gotten
himself into a high lightning (or ice) risk,
whether or not MY gizmo works is the least of
his problems.
This is a top-of-the-head 25-cent tour of DO-160
as it might apply to your project. I don't think I've
missed anything but I'll check this e-mail for
completeness against the BIG book tomorrow. If you'd
care to share a schematic of your product with
me, I can scratch some recommendations onto it
based upon a whole lot of smoke I've smelled in
the lab . . . no sense in letting any smoke out
of your parts if it's easy to avoid.
While not DO-160 recommendations, my personal
suggestions for i/o is use D-sub connectors for
as much of your wiring needs as possible. The solid
state power distribution assembly for the new target
is ALL d-sub connectors in spite of the fact that
three outputs are rated at over 20A continuous and
one input is rated for 40A continuous. There are
ways to make this work that allow you to take
advantage of a wide variety of relatively low
cost connectors and tools with military qualified
pins at the critical junctures in the connector.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: trim indicator |
>Bob, I will probably use acme threads, ( like in a vise) I am guessing but should
have around 1.5 to 2 inches of travel. I have not made the tab yet . Just
trying to think about what I need. I have thought about using a mechanical fuel
gauge sender and gauge. The only other way I know of is to use a potentiometer
with arm. What kind of gauge is available? I thought maybe someone you knew
had already might have been through this process of making a low cost trim
and indicator. I know you are busy. You have been kind enough already in replying.
I will come up with something. Thanks for everything.
No problem, that's what where here for. I think
your forces are going to be SOoooooo small that
something like 1/4-20 all-thread would suffice.
2" would give you 40 turns . . . too many to
let you use a 10 turn potentiometer direct
drive . . . getting a pot attache to the far
end of the "acme" can be difficult too. You
could install a small gear at the output
of your screwdriver gear box to effect a
4:1 reduction to a 10-turn pot. See parts
at the top of this page:
http://info.digikey.com/T012/V4/507.pdf
For an indicator, I'd recommend an LED bar
graph display. See data sheet on chip to
drive display at:
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM3915.pdf
You can use one or more of these devices
cascaded (see data sheets) to drive
one or more led arrays that would light
up a bar graph to indicate tab position.
See:
http://info.digikey.com/T012/V4/713.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Z7-ebus.pdf file made available |
Bob:
Thanks so much for that Z-7 ebus file which relates to
the Rotax engines. Could I impose and ask for that
file in AutoCad so that I can play with it in
IntelliCAD? There are a few changes I would like to
play around with.......
THANKS AGAIN!
-Kevin-
kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Key Switch Failures |
In my four years at Cessna, the only problem we had with these switches was
when the manufacturer failed to rivet the center grd terminal tightly. It
never actually caused a failure in an airplane that I am aware of. Someone
on the line noticed it and then they were all inspected and corrected. Some
signs of arcing were found inside some of the switches when they were opened
up and inspected.
David Swartzendruber
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Breadboarding |
>Hello
>
>I found your site while searching for some flight electronic sites. I
>found your breadboarding method interesting. At first I didn't get it,
>and wandered while you were soldering everything to one copper board. I
>then read some more and " clicked " for the larger image and everything
>came clear. Neat idea. I will probably stick to the perforated boards
>though.
Perf boards are useful if your goal is to harden up the
end results for extended service . . . the cladboarding
technique is a VERY fast see-if-it-works tool. I'm going
to put a couple of small circuits together this evening
that I'll take out to Raytheon in the morning to run through
the chamber looking for temperature effects and we'll
be able to try in the airplane using a breakout harness.
I won't have an hour tied up in either circuit to build
them and by this time tomorrow, we'll be able to make a
decision about how to implement the circuits into production.
> I am just getting into the world of aviation. My friend is the
>flyer and builder and I am just going for my license. I would like to
>incorporate some electronics into our plane ( probably the new RV-7 ),
>but at this time, I know little about aviation electronics. Can you
>point me in the direction of some good reference materials?
I'd start with our website's downloadable materals. There's
a TON of info available from various suppliers of electronic
parts not to mention
>I met a fella recently who uses a laptop for " flight management " in
>his experimental but I don't know what that entails. ( software,
>interfaces, discreet transducers, etc )
>
>It sounds like fun though.
Interesting . . . and distracting. Like cell-phones
and Big Macs in cars, engine analyzers and moving maps
can be JUST as hazardous to your first duty as a pilot.
Please keep in mind that the biggest value you get
from a personally flown airplane is (1) fun and pride
of accomplishment and (2) reasonably satisfactory
point A to point B transportation in some situations.
Both of these goals can be achieved with very little
in the way of techno-whizzies on the panel. Once you
begin to load the panel with less-than-necessary stuff,
the work-load (or distraction-load) for things other
than pilot duties goes up. It's a hard fact that
your ability to avoid hazards that come from outside
the airplane goes down.
The vast majority of mid-airs and inadvertent
contact with obstructions involves a whole cockpit
full of pilots with their heads down.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re:Alternator filter |
>
>Bob:
>
>Would you please give me some values and a source for an inductor or choke
>coil for a 12 volt alternator system.
>
>thanks,
>Steve
Are you having problems with alternator noise? What system
is affected and what is the symptom? There are VERY FEW
situations where a filter at the alternator is effective
or necessary. Alternator whine is VERY difficult to filter
in most cases. Most cases of alternator interference come
from (1) ground loops built into poor power distribution
architecture and/or (2) poor design of the victim's power
input conditioning circuitry. (See DO-160 in a nutshell
in earlier post). You need to identify the mode of
noise propagation between alternator and victim before
you can adequately prescribe a solution. 99% of the time
a filter at the alternator is NOT the solution.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics connections |
>Thanks for that, Bob. I was going to ground all the intercom system shields
>to the main aircraft ground terminal block and attach the com box mic gnd
>to that too. I need to do some rework, I guess. Plus isolate the headphone
>jacks as you recommend. What I need is a straightforward book on radio and
>intercom systems. I am constantly finding out how much I don't know...
Whoops! All of your intercom system shields need to ground
to the INTERCOM as shown in the intercom's installation
instructions. The only thing that runs from the intercom
system and ANY of the ancillary component to the GROUND
BUS is the power ground for the intercom. The firewall
ground bus is not a signal ground.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z7-ebus.pdf file made available |
>
>Bob:
>
>Thanks so much for that Z-7 ebus file which relates to
>the Rotax engines. Could I impose and ask for that
>file in AutoCad so that I can play with it in
>IntelliCAD? There are a few changes I would like to
>play around with.......
>
>THANKS AGAIN!
Here 'tis . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 05/08/01 |
APOLLO LORAN Circuit Board Corrosion
Bob:
Recently I washed my RV-6 in prep for a display at North Las Vegas. I kept
the canopy closed. Immediately after washing, I thought the dry desert air
would be great to dry all the water that might have seeped inside, and with a
negative G or two, I could get the water out of the bottom of the rudder and
tail cone where it might accumulate -- so I went flying!
On takeoff, water gushed out of the eyeball vents (logical -- I didn't plug
the Naca scoops) but worse, water and soap suds gushed out of the database
slot on my Apollo 800 Flybuddy Loran set!
The Loran fired up OK, but more or less fizzled with strange displays
thereafter.
The next morning, the Loran would fire up, but never find a lat/lon position
nor did it seem to understand the database card. It would not compute
anything.
I called UPS Apollo for help -- they are really good at over-the-phone
help. With cell phone in hand and sitting in the cockpit, they talked me
through several steps to RE-initialize the Loran software and get the thing
working again. It works perfectly now. But they suggested I remove the cover
and take a look inside for corrosion, in particular, the internal battery is
a source of corrosion.
I removed the cover and found the battery on the lower level circuit board
was just fine. But the upper level circuit board had started to develop some
chalky appearance around all the fine leads from components soldered into the
board.
Here in Nevada, we've got pretty dry air. I'm hoping the corrosion will not
grow, or at least will grow extremely slowly. The Apollo technicians told
me I was now operating on 'borrowed time". Its only a matter of time before
the Loran dies another death.
1. Is corrosion from a one-time event going to continue to grow if I keep it
dry from now on?
2. Do you have a method (perhaps a scrubbing with a wire brush or some
magical acid wash or something) that could remove the existing corrosion?
3. Do you recommend I slop some Shoo-goo or Electrical Insulation in a
Bottle all over the corroding components leads and solder joints on the
circuit boards to prevent further oxidation?
Sorry for the long story for a simple problem!
Dan Eikleberry
RV-6 flying (but maybe not navigating)
Las Vegas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kempthornes" <kempthornes(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: comm splitter |
> Yup, Bob makes a splitter that allows you to use one com antenna with two
> com radios.
Why have two com radios and only one antenna?????
The radios now are so reliable that dual seems needed only for IFR and for
that, two antennae are, I'm told, a very good idea. I hear ice can carry an
antenna away. If you lose any radio while VFR it is only an inconvenience,
right?
The second antenna could be mounted inside the canopy.
Hal Kempthorne
RV6a N7HK (Valentine) FLYING
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Aero-spec plastic fuses? |
Hello,
My current avionics project ( installing a 28V GNS-430 in my Sundowner )
seems to require a 15A fuse ( because I want to stick the voltage inverter
in the tail ).
The IDEAL fuse for this job would be one of those square
automotive plastic ones, stick in an inline fuseholder, the kind that just
becomes part of the wire.
I shrink at the notion of sticking in a mounting bracket for a holder for
a round fuse or a circuit breaker back there. Yuck.
But the first thing the FSDO inspector will ask, is the part # and
traceability of the fuse. He will want it to be either
* MIL Spec
* FAA/PMA ( for a fuse? Not likely...)
* STC'd ( "" "" "" )
* Same part as used by some OEM in a certificated aircraft
If I beg and plead, it MIGHT be possible to sneak something by that's
"UL Listed" but I doubt it.
SO: Is there a MIL spec for such fuses and fuseholders?
...thanks in advance,
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 05/08/01 |
>
> Here in Nevada, we've got pretty dry air. I'm hoping the corrosion will not
> grow, or at least will grow extremely slowly. The Apollo technicians told
> me I was now operating on 'borrowed time". Its only a matter of time before
> the Loran dies another death.
>
*** I'm probably full of it, but here's my take on the matter:
1. I think it's a really BAD idea to have modern avionics cooled by
outside air - and water - and dust - and whatever - from the outside world.
Better to have one of those internal avionics cooling fans.
2. I would take the radio out and clean off the corrosion with some
solvent and a disposable acid brush. You take the acid brush, and chop
the bristles down to maybe 1/4" long. For solvent, you can get fancy stuff
at the electronics shop, or you can use Isopropyl alcohol.
3. Krylon used to sell a clear insulating spray, meant for quieting zappy
ignition systems. A thin coat of this on the cleaned circuit board
probably wouldn't hurt. Make sure to mask off all the connectors!
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Breadboarding |
At 09:46 2001.05.09., you wrote:
>Like cell-phones
> and Big Macs in cars, engine analyzers and moving maps
> can be JUST as hazardous to your first duty as a pilot.
> Please keep in mind that the biggest value you get
> from a personally flown airplane is (1) fun and pride
> of accomplishment and (2) reasonably satisfactory
> point A to point B transportation in some situations.
Point is well taken. I had to laugh when I saw Rod Machado in one of the
current flight magazines say that GPS ought to stand for Give it to the
Person Sitting next to you!
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: DO-160 in a nutshell |
At 11:06 2001.05.08., you wrote:
> Power input: Try to make your gizmo work as specified
> over the range of 13.0 to 15.0 volts and function with
> perhaps degraded but still useful performance down to
> 10.5 volts (end of battery life).
Yes, but how? The only way I know to do this is design the circuit to use
lower potentials, like 5 or 9 volts, and use a 7805 or 7809, which is
really just an elaborate dropping resistor. Any other ideas for something
more efficient?
> Bus Noise: Expect noise on the bus ranging from 10
> to 100 Hz ramping upward zero volts pk-pk to 1.5
> volts pk-pk. Then from 100 Hz to 1000 Hz, at
> 1.5 volts pk-pk constant. Finaly 1000Hz to 10,000 Hz
> with the amplitude ramping downward from 1.5 volts
> pk-pk to zero at 10KHz. A sine wave "noise" is
> satisfactory for testing.
Besides a smoothing capacitor, or the above mentioned three terminal
regulators, what suggestions are there to get rid of this?
> Interruptions: Test for all manner of interruption
> and brownout. Your gizmo should not be damaged by any
> downward excursions of power supply for any duration
> and levels down to and including zero volts. The gizmo
> can fail to function below 10.5 volts but should come
> back to normal operation without pilot intervention when
> the bus returns to normal.
Yes, but how is this done in all those devices that meet DO-160 - is there
a component or simple circuit that latches off on low voltage?
> Surges: Can you take 20 volts for 1 second with no
> damage to your product? Can you take 40 volts
> for 100 milliseconds? For small electro-whizzies
> a simple shunt regulated zener or active device
> (FET or Transistor) supply can be configured to
> take these hits.
The shunt regulated zener is a good idea - how about MOVs - are they
available in this voltage range that act fast enough?
I think my question wasn't so much about the conditions of the DO-160 as to
what are the practical implementations that have been used to comply with it.
Thanks,
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: comm splitter |
If ice carries your antenna away, you have many more problems than being
able to use a radio. One being able to maintain altitude. On the other
hand, your radio would be nice to tell some where you were crashing from so
much ice.
----- Original Message -----
From: "kempthornes" <kempthornes(at)home.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: comm splitter
> Yup, Bob makes a splitter that allows you to use one com antenna with two
> com radios.
Why have two com radios and only one antenna?????
The radios now are so reliable that dual seems needed only for IFR and for
that, two antennae are, I'm told, a very good idea. I hear ice can carry an
antenna away. If you lose any radio while VFR it is only an inconvenience,
right?
The second antenna could be mounted inside the canopy.
Hal Kempthorne
RV6a N7HK (Valentine) FLYING
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Loran internal corrosion . . . |
>
> I called UPS Apollo for help -- they are really good at over-the-phone
>help. With cell phone in hand and sitting in the cockpit, they talked me
>through several steps to RE-initialize the Loran software and get the thing
>working again. It works perfectly now. But they suggested I remove the cover
>and take a look inside for corrosion, in particular, the internal battery is
>a source of corrosion.
>
> I removed the cover and found the battery on the lower level circuit board
>was just fine. But the upper level circuit board had started to develop some
>chalky appearance around all the fine leads from components soldered into the
>board.
>
> Here in Nevada, we've got pretty dry air. I'm hoping the corrosion will not
>grow, or at least will grow extremely slowly. The Apollo technicians told
>me I was now operating on 'borrowed time". Its only a matter of time before
>the Loran dies another death.
>
>1. Is corrosion from a one-time event going to continue to grow if I keep it
>dry from now on?
I think the products of corrosion can be hygroscopic . . . meaning
that they become something of a magnet for any moisture in the
air and concentrating it at the interface between un-damaged material
and the corrosion setting on top. I think it will continue
to grow.
>2. Do you have a method (perhaps a scrubbing with a wire brush or some
>magical acid wash or something) that could remove the existing corrosion?
>3. Do you recommend I slop some Shoo-goo or Electrical Insulation in a
>Bottle all over the corroding components leads and solder joints on the
>circuit boards to prevent further oxidation?
I'd check with an avionics shop. Call some folks on the Gulf coasts
and ask about corrosion treatments. If ANYONE has an idea about how
to attack the problem, they would.
Lacking any good info from someone who's developed a successful
technique I would do this:
Using synthetic brush (like tooth brush or acid brush from
hardware store) and distilled water, I'd scrub off as much
as will come loose. Rinse well with distilled water. Then
flush off with a heavy freon based flux remover with added
scrubbing . . . might even use a q-tip wet with freon to
put localized pressure on visible corrosion.
There are several good freon based products like Dupont
Freon TMS or a substitute you can see at:
http://www.techspray.com/1665info.htm
After final rinse with clean freon I'd blow dry with a hair
dryer . . . keep about a foot away . . . you want WARM air.
Then I would paint the board with a silicone or polyurethane
etched circuit board coating. One possible product can
be seen at:
http://store.yahoo.com/webtronics/422a-340g.html
Hope you can keep it from going to the place where
all good radios go to die . . . Good luck!
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aero-spec plastic fuses? |
Hello,
My current avionics project ( installing a 28V GNS-430 in my Sundowner )
seems to require a 15A fuse ( because I want to stick the voltage inverter
in the tail ).
The IDEAL fuse for this job would be one of those square
automotive plastic ones, stick in an inline fuseholder, the kind that just
becomes part of the wire.
I shrink at the notion of sticking in a mounting bracket for a holder for
a round fuse or a circuit breaker back there. Yuck.
I'd go ahead and put the breaker on a bracket
. . . is this a second radio or your only radio?
But the first thing the FSDO inspector will ask, is the part # and
traceability of the fuse. He will want it to be either
* MIL Spec
* FAA/PMA ( for a fuse? Not likely...)
* STC'd ( "" "" "" )
* Same part as used by some OEM in a certificated aircraft
If I beg and plead, it MIGHT be possible to sneak something by that's
"UL Listed" but I doubt it.
SO: Is there a MIL spec for such fuses and fuseholders?
...thanks in advance,
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
Can't help much there . . . gave up lusting after holy-water
soaked parts about 10 years ago. I heard a rumor that Cessna
is using the ATC fuse in some application on new single engine
airplanes. Haven't had time to track it down.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aero-spec plastic fuses? |
>
>
> I'd go ahead and put the breaker on a bracket
> . . . is this a second radio or your only radio?
>
*** That is probably what I will do. Especially since I already have a 15A
Klixon breaker. This will be considered the "first" radio, but it is not
the only radio. There is a KX170B w/KI214 for navcom 2.
- Jerry Kaidor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DO-160 in a nutshell |
>
>At 11:06 2001.05.08., you wrote:
>> Power input: Try to make your gizmo work as specified
>> over the range of 13.0 to 15.0 volts and function with
>> perhaps degraded but still useful performance down to
>> 10.5 volts (end of battery life).
>
>Yes, but how? The only way I know to do this is design the circuit to use
>lower potentials, like 5 or 9 volts, and use a 7805 or 7809, which is
>really just an elaborate dropping resistor. Any other ideas for something
>more efficient?
First, what is the operating voltage of your gizmo and
how much power does it need?
>> Bus Noise: Expect noise on the bus ranging from 10
>> to 100 Hz ramping upward zero volts pk-pk to 1.5
>> volts pk-pk. Then from 100 Hz to 1000 Hz, at
>> 1.5 volts pk-pk constant. Finaly 1000Hz to 10,000 Hz
>> with the amplitude ramping downward from 1.5 volts
>> pk-pk to zero at 10KHz. A sine wave "noise" is
>> satisfactory for testing.
>
>Besides a smoothing capacitor, or the above mentioned three terminal
>regulators, what suggestions are there to get rid of this?
3-terminal regulators combined with a capacitor or
two can do a good job with this. You have to operate your
gizmo internally so that the regulator doesn't run out
of headroom for regulation during the negative excursions
of the noise. This may require a low dropout regulator.
>> Interruptions: Test for all manner of interruption
>> and brownout. Your gizmo should not be damaged by any
>> downward excursions of power supply for any duration
>> and levels down to and including zero volts. The gizmo
>> can fail to function below 10.5 volts but should come
>> back to normal operation without pilot intervention when
>> the bus returns to normal.
>
>Yes, but how is this done in all those devices that meet DO-160 - is there
>a component or simple circuit that latches off on low voltage?
Lots of ways to do this. If you have a microcontroller,
there are power monitor/reset generator chips that simply
lock the CPU down during brownout and allow it to do an
orderly reset when the voltage becomes adequate again
Do you have a processor in this product? If you don't
have a processor, it may not matter what happens during
brownout if your system comes back alive in an orderly
fashion when the interruption is over.
>> Surges: Can you take 20 volts for 1 second with no
>> damage to your product? Can you take 40 volts
>> for 100 milliseconds? For small electro-whizzies
>> a simple shunt regulated zener or active device
>> (FET or Transistor) supply can be configured to
>> take these hits.
>
>The shunt regulated zener is a good idea - how about MOVs - are they
>available in this voltage range that act fast enough?
MOVS are not hard clamps . . . TVS type devices are
better. Or your 3-terminal regulator will take care
of this automatically . . . they're good for 30V or more.
>I think my question wasn't so much about the conditions of the DO-160 as to
>what are the practical implementations that have been used to comply with it.
Understand. Need to know a bit more about your task before
I can get specific. Let's start with operating power
requirements for the product.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z7-ebus.pdf file made available |
>Thanks so much for that Z-7 ebus file which relates to
>the Rotax engines. Could I impose and ask for that
>file in AutoCad
... make that .DXF so anyone with a non-AutoCAD CAD application can
also benefit from it, please! I suggest that Bob might standardize on
.DXF for drawings available for download.
Thanks
Rowland
| PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623
| Europa builder #435 G-ROWI
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z7-ebus.pdf file made available |
Thread-Topic: AeroElectric-List: Z7-ebus.pdf file made available
Thread-Index: AcDZkKrjpQj/XdF6QX232hIqrbZGQQAAN6wg
| From: | "Bob Japundza" <Bob.Japundza(at)realmed.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM" <Kearns(at)pol.net> |
| Subject: | Re: B-lead protection |
For a 40 amp alternator, what guage should the field wire be, and should
it be shielded? An ADF is picking up well except when directly off the
left wing. Thanks.
Joe Kearns
John Field wrote:
>
>
> I have a 40 amp alternator and I'm planning on using 8gage wire for the
> B-lead. B+C sold me a 70amp inline current limiter and suggested it would
> be an appropiate size. Is this combination OK? I've had someone suggest
> that the fuse is too large and would not protect the B-lead. He thought an
> in-line fusable link of 12gage wire would be correct. Any suggestions?
> Thanks John Field RV-4
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator Field wire and ADF interference |
>
>For a 40 amp alternator, what guage should the field wire be, and should
>it be shielded? An ADF is picking up well except when directly off the
>left wing. Thanks.
The field wire can be as small as 22AWG electrically . . . I generally
use 20AWG as smallest wire under the cowl that goes out to engine mounted
stuff . . . just for mechanical robustness.
Shielding any alternator wires will have no benefits for your
ADF. I don't have any solid notion of where to look for this
problem. When you say "picking up well" do you mean with respect
to audibility or with respect to getting a vigorous direction
indication to the station?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Power requirements of GNS430? |
Hi,
I'm trying to size the power wire to my GNS-430 transmitter section.
This is a 28V system, and for purposes of weight & balance, it's desirable
to locate the 3-pound inverter in back rather than in front.
The GNS-430 manual has the following things to say:
Input Voltage Range(420/430) 22 to 33V
Power Requirement: 10 mA & 27.5V ( not transmitting )
3.0 A & 27.5V ( transmitting )
Also, the power input is tested per DO-160 Section 16.0, category B.
and "voltage spike" tested per DO-160 Section 17.0, category A.
Garmin specifies a pair of 18-gage wires to carry the 28V from the
inverter to the radio. But they don't specify a max length. Just going
from the voltage and current spreads, I could feed the thing through a wet
noodle. But I rather suspect that the voltage spread refers to a
steady-state voltage, not a voltage that is varying at an audio rate in
response to varying current as you talk. I can't help but think that
the latter would do bad things to the cleanliness of the transmitted output.
SO: How good does the dynamic voltage regulation, as seen at the input
pins of the '430, need to be? Only the wire from the inverter to the radio
is at issue: the inverter itself is regulated, and should compensate for
voltage drop in the outgoing 12V.
Would 0.5V of resistive drop at full load be OK? 1.0V?
Thanks in advance,
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Power requirements of GNS430? |
>
>Hi,
>
> I'm trying to size the power wire to my GNS-430 transmitter section.
>This is a 28V system, and for purposes of weight & balance, it's desirable
>to locate the 3-pound inverter in back rather than in front.
>
> The GNS-430 manual has the following things to say:
>
>Input Voltage Range(420/430) 22 to 33V
>Power Requirement: 10 mA & 27.5V ( not transmitting )
> 3.0 A & 27.5V ( transmitting )
>Also, the power input is tested per DO-160 Section 16.0, category B.
>and "voltage spike" tested per DO-160 Section 17.0, category A.
>
> Garmin specifies a pair of 18-gage wires to carry the 28V from the
>inverter to the radio. But they don't specify a max length. Just going
>from the voltage and current spreads, I could feed the thing through a wet
>noodle. But I rather suspect that the voltage spread refers to a
>steady-state voltage, not a voltage that is varying at an audio rate in
>response to varying current as you talk. I can't help but think that
>the latter would do bad things to the cleanliness of the transmitted output.
>
> SO: How good does the dynamic voltage regulation, as seen at the input
>pins of the '430, need to be? Only the wire from the inverter to the radio
>is at issue: the inverter itself is regulated, and should compensate for
>voltage drop in the outgoing 12V.
22AWG is 16 mOhm per foot. A 3A draw during transmit gives
you 48 mVolts drop per foot. 10' of wire would be 480 mVolts.
20' would be 960 mVolts. Source impedance questions are good
ones to ask and I would address them like this:
The approx 1 volt drop is less than 5% so it doesn't represent
a significant effect on performance of the radio. As you've
deduced, voltage drop is a dynamic thing that would appear to
the radio as if a noise were impressed upon the bus having a
peak-to-peak value of 1 volt. When radio builders do their
DO-160 thing, they're suppose to show that 3 volts pk-pk on
a 28v power supply has no deleterious effect on their product.
Then engineering answer is that 22AWG is okay between the
inverter and the radio. The practical alternative suggests
that IF the connectors will accept 20AWG wire (don't recall
for sure but I think that radio has high-density d-sub
connectors that are 22AWG max pins) . . .the 20AWG wouldn't
hurt a thing but may not be practical for pin size considerations.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>Bob,
>
>I think a key lock and ignition switch is unnecessary.
>
>I sold mine (it was the size and weight of a hand-grenade). I plan to put a
>plain old rocker switch with a start, run, and off position on the panel
>position of my Subaru powered Glastar (so no mags to check). A key switch
>is SO easy to defeat. I am not against using some removable fuse or part as
>a key for real security. I do wonder if the insurance company will complain?
Agreed . . . I think they're especially unhandy on tandem cockpit a/c
with limited panel space.
>On the question of what to do with a circuit board that has been washed and
>maybe corroded--- Be aware that the sensitive parts are the very high
>impedence parts like the crystals. A little schmutz around these and the
>processor will stop, frequencies will drift and other bad things will
>happen. Coating the PCB may not make this better after the fact. Don't ask
>me how I know!
Sure . . . this is why (1) removing products of corrosion is a good
thing to do and (2) sealing the affected area from the environment
is an essential thing to do to keep the problem from returning.
>Also---Do fuses require Mil-Spec ratings??????? What's going on? There's not
>much in my airplane that is Mil Spec or FAA certificated.
I cannot recall a single instance when the fabrication of my
product or it's service to my customer was enhanced by any
kind of holy water being sprinkled upon the processes by which
it was allowed to be installed on an airplane.
We're wrestling right now with a super-holy-watered assembly
house that did a really nice job on the first batch of
target autopilots they fabricated for us and a horrendous
job on the second batch. Had it not been necessary for our
techs to open them up to install new software, we would not
have seen the carnage inside. Bottom line is that ultimate
quality of any task is dependent upon the last person to
touch any effort before it gets handed to the next user.
No amount of regulation or threat of punishment for failure
to observe regulations will compensate for ignorance
or lack of pride in one's craftsmanship.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: DO-160 in a nutshell |
>
> First, what is the operating voltage of your gizmo and
> how much power does it need?
I have two. One is 5 volts at 200 ma. Here, I suspect the 7805 with an
input filter capacitor will take care of things, Yes?
The other one is 12 volts at about 800 ma. It is not built yet, so I
making a calculated estimate for the 800 ma. Say 1 amp to play it safe.
Here, I am not sure how to take care of low voltage or high surges, etc.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Polarity Sensitive Breakers? |
Hello,
I just bought a Potter & Brunfield W23 series 50A breaker. The terminal
lugs of this breaker are marked "LINE" and "LOAD". If I connect it as
specified, the "50" will be upside down.
Does it really matter which way you hook it up? Why? As I understand it,
a breaker is just a thermal device - it pops when it heats up enough. Does
electricity going this way heat it more than electricity going that way? Do
you reverse "Line" and "Load" when you use it in a positive-ground
environment?
I _have_ heard of polarity mattering in items that do a lot of switching,
like voltage regulator points. But a breaker mostly just stays closed...
My suspicion is that the markings are there to stop people from just
hooking the thing in parallel with the battery :-).
- Jerry "we sweat the details" Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Polarity Sensitive Breakers? |
>
>Hello,
>
> I just bought a Potter & Brunfield W23 series 50A breaker. The terminal
>lugs of this breaker are marked "LINE" and "LOAD". If I connect it as
>specified, the "50" will be upside down.
>
> Does it really matter which way you hook it up? Why? As I understand it,
>a breaker is just a thermal device - it pops when it heats up enough. Does
>electricity going this way heat it more than electricity going that way? Do
>you reverse "Line" and "Load" when you use it in a positive-ground
>environment?
>
> I _have_ heard of polarity mattering in items that do a lot of switching,
>like voltage regulator points. But a breaker mostly just stays closed...
>
> My suspicion is that the markings are there to stop people from just
>hooking the thing in parallel with the battery :-).
A two terminal breaker can be wired either with either
input as "line" or "load" . . . I think those markings
are there to accommodate other models of breaker that
include remote trip, remote trip sensing or other
feature that adds a third terminal . . . in these
applications, the hookup is important. For your
application, wire it any way you like.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DO-160 in a nutshell |
>
>
>>
>> First, what is the operating voltage of your gizmo and
>> how much power does it need?
>
>I have two. One is 5 volts at 200 ma. Here, I suspect the 7805 with an
>input filter capacitor will take care of things, Yes?
Probably so. Here's a copy of the 3-terminal
data sheet from national
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM340.pdf
Most their regulators have a 35 volt max but
that's probably good enough. I don't think there's
anything in a modern airplane that can get you
a 40v surge . . . that's one part of DO-160 grandfathered
over from the generator/carbon-pile regulator days.
Does the product contain a microprocessor?
If so, check out the various reset controllers from
National, et. als.
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3700.html
National has a whole bunch of devices with the
LM37xx prefix.
http://www.avnet-pacific.com/sipex/SP791.htm
http://products.analog.com/products/info.asp?product=ADM1232
are just some examples. Do a web search on phrase
"microprocessor supervisory"
>The other one is 12 volts at about 800 ma. It is not built yet, so I
>making a calculated estimate for the 800 ma. Say 1 amp to play it safe.
>Here, I am not sure how to take care of low voltage or high surges, etc.
How hard would it be to make your circuit take the 40v hit?
Does it use integrated circuits with absolute maximums lower
than 40V? You can do your own line input switch that keeps
a transistor saturated for any input voltage below say 16V
and goes open circuit for anything higher . . . this could
take care of surges but you still have to consider noise on
the bus.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DO-160 in a nutshell |
> a 40v surge . . . that's one part of DO-160 grandfathered
> over from the generator/carbon-pile regulator days.
*** Does anything go away? The current AC43-13 still has info on installing
radio range antennas....
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
>Bob,
>
>Having read & thought about your last email, I think I may have got my
>intercom wiring very very wrong. The intercom system is a Flightcom 403MC.
>I have attached 2 jpegs from the instruction booklet. The first is a block
>diagram of the 403 itself, and the second is the wiring diagram they
>supplied.
John, if it were my airplane, here's how I would wire
it.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
There are a number of satisfactory ways and a number
of unsatisfactory ways. I think the diagram above
represents the cleanest system I could build with
wire that I commonly use. The 3-conductor shielded
and single-conductor shielded illustrated in the
wiring diagram are materials I keep in my shop
and they're also offered from B&C's website catalog
at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
You may well be able to use wire you have already
installed by studying the diagram above . . . if you
use two conductor shielded for the microphones, then
eliminate the BLUE wire and use the shield ground itself
as the "blue" conductor.
Hope this helps.
If other folks on the list have different intercom
systems they'd like to make me aware of, I'll try
to do similar diagrams for the popular models in use.
Let me know which models . . . if I can download
factory installation data on the web, I'll do it.
If the data is not available on the web, I might ask
one of you to send me copies of the diagrams supplied
with your hardware.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DO-160 in a nutshell |
>
>> a 40v surge . . . that's one part of DO-160 grandfathered
>> over from the generator/carbon-pile regulator days.
>*** Does anything go away? The current AC43-13 still has info on installing
>radio range antennas....
Only to the degree that I don't think I'd try REALLY hard
to meet it . . . for example, the 35v max rating on the
3-terminal regulators is adequate.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>Hi Bob,
>The 403mc diagram has lots of little hooks on it. What do they indicate?
>What is that line that parallels the PM 1000 Intercom with the little hooks
>on it? We are really below basic here!
Those are the symbols for the outer jacket of a shielded
wire. You see those used on our wiring diagrams for magneto
p-leads and for wires that run between strobe power supplies
and the strobe heads.
It's an unusual symbol because there are very few shielded
wires in an airplane . . . aside from strobes and p-leads,
only the avionics and audio systems can make good use
of shield wire.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
Bob I would guess you have web problems as I can download nothing completely
as a pdf from your site. I have tried several files with only garbage or
partial down loads. Switching to TI semi web site downloads OK same for
National.
I can provide details off line if req.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 5:47 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Intercom connections.
>Bob,
>
>Having read & thought about your last email, I think I may have got my
>intercom wiring very very wrong. The intercom system is a Flightcom 403MC.
>I have attached 2 jpegs from the instruction booklet. The first is a block
>diagram of the 403 itself, and the second is the wiring diagram they
>supplied.
John, if it were my airplane, here's how I would wire
it.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
There are a number of satisfactory ways and a number
of unsatisfactory ways. I think the diagram above
represents the cleanest system I could build with
wire that I commonly use. The 3-conductor shielded
and single-conductor shielded illustrated in the
wiring diagram are materials I keep in my shop
and they're also offered from B&C's website catalog
at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
You may well be able to use wire you have already
installed by studying the diagram above . . . if you
use two conductor shielded for the microphones, then
eliminate the BLUE wire and use the shield ground itself
as the "blue" conductor.
Hope this helps.
If other folks on the list have different intercom
systems they'd like to make me aware of, I'll try
to do similar diagrams for the popular models in use.
Let me know which models . . . if I can download
factory installation data on the web, I'll do it.
If the data is not available on the web, I might ask
one of you to send me copies of the diagrams supplied
with your hardware.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
Paul,
I host both Bob's e-mail and web site. I am interested in helping you with
problems. We are unaware of any problems. I personally tested the d/l of
the .pdf's quoted below without problem.
Please be specific with the problems you're having.
At 12:37 PM 5/13/2001Paul Messinger sez:
>
>
>Bob I would guess you have web problems as I can download nothing completely
>as a pdf from your site. I have tried several files with only garbage or
>partial down loads. Switching to TI semi web site downloads OK same for
>National.
>
>I can provide details off line if req.
>
>Paul
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
>L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 5:47 AM
>To: D John Akerman
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Intercom connections.
>
>
>
>
> >Bob,
> >
> >Having read & thought about your last email, I think I may have got my
> >intercom wiring very very wrong. The intercom system is a Flightcom 403MC.
> >I have attached 2 jpegs from the instruction booklet. The first is a block
> >diagram of the 403 itself, and the second is the wiring diagram they
> >supplied.
>
> John, if it were my airplane, here's how I would wire
> it.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
>
>
> There are a number of satisfactory ways and a number
> of unsatisfactory ways. I think the diagram above
> represents the cleanest system I could build with
> wire that I commonly use. The 3-conductor shielded
> and single-conductor shielded illustrated in the
> wiring diagram are materials I keep in my shop
> and they're also offered from B&C's website catalog
> at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
>
> You may well be able to use wire you have already
> installed by studying the diagram above . . . if you
> use two conductor shielded for the microphones, then
> eliminate the BLUE wire and use the shield ground itself
> as the "blue" conductor.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> If other folks on the list have different intercom
> systems they'd like to make me aware of, I'll try
> to do similar diagrams for the popular models in use.
> Let me know which models . . . if I can download
> factory installation data on the web, I'll do it.
> If the data is not available on the web, I might ask
> one of you to send me copies of the diagrams supplied
> with your hardware.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
Paul,
I host both Bob's e-mail and web site. I am interested in helping you with
problems. We are unaware of any problems. I personally tested the d/l of
the .pdf's quoted below without problem.
Please be specific with the problems you're having.
Here is some specifics to look at.
The link below fails to load a pdf file completely. Another several links
also fail to load completely or just load as a line or two of garbage.
Acrobat reader just stops and appears to have completed but there is no
complete file. Attempts to either print or save the file leave the printer
and or the file saving in a "hung" mode as incomplete.
The file on the OV crowbar pdf says 2 pages but there is only one that loads
The file cannot be saves but the first page will print and then the printer
hangs waiting for more. However both the printer and file saving process
wait for a second page and hangs.
Other web sites download properly after the ref msg as well as just before
this reply. I have had no problems with the present software setup and made
no changes for several months. I am running internet explorer v 5.00 with
adobe acrobat V 4.06.
The wigwag option files Options 1,2,3,4 just produce a line or two of mixed
symbols and hang. The mac relay diagram for pitch trim with the mac switch
box works but the one following option for your "own relays" fails to load
anything. I get modem activity etc but blank screen after the modem stops
recieving data.
Under the /articles/ xxx directory the following stop with a blank page but
S/W says done. Ggalls2ww.pdf, arc_ww.pdf.
Line of two of mixed characters/symbols from gallsww.pdf and aec_ww2.pdf
files.
Other files work properly as does flaps.pdf so its not all or nothing and
there are four types of results.
First it works properly.
Second its a partial file that displays an incomplete dreawing.
Third its a balnk page.
Foruth its a line of two of garbage.
I download PDF files for electronic parts for several dozen parts each week
(from many different vendors with no problems) so I feel there is something
unique in this case. I verified this before my first post that you are
replying to. Also My first attempt to post a email reply was rejected this
am by your server.
I have downloaded pdf files from Bob in the past OK but that was many months
(last year sometime and with older internet software) ago perhaps before you
took over?? What ever the problem is its wide spread with the pdf files.
I tried to go from the top of the web page to get to the below file another
way and its not on the list of files so there is a missing directory entry
in the web page.
This all started as I have the very same intercom and wanted to see how Bob
suggested to wire it.
Paul
At 12:37 PM 5/13/2001Paul Messinger sez:
>
>
>Bob I would guess you have web problems as I can download nothing
completely
>as a pdf from your site. I have tried several files with only garbage or
>partial down loads. Switching to TI semi web site downloads OK same for
>National.
>
>I can provide details off line if req.
>
>Paul
>
>
> John, if it were my airplane, here's how I would wire
> it.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
>
>
> There are a number of satisfactory ways and a number
> of unsatisfactory ways. I think the diagram above
> represents the cleanest system I could build with
> wire that I commonly use. The 3-conductor shielded
> and single-conductor shielded illustrated in the
> wiring diagram are materials I keep in my shop
> and they're also offered from B&C's website catalog
> at:
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William B. Swears" <wswears(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
Following this, I tried downloading some of your PDFs. Including the one on the
link below that Paul referenced. They all work fine for me. However, I've
experienced the pain Paul is going through in terms of problems downloading from
other companies that nobody else is having.
Paul, I'm going to theorize that you've got something in your cache interfering
with the specific PDFs in question. It could be that you got currupt files that
partially open, but still claim to be good. You might try linking again, then
hitting your Reload button.
Bill
Paul Messinger wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> I host both Bob's e-mail and web site. I am interested in helping you with
> problems. We are unaware of any problems. I personally tested the d/l of
> the .pdf's quoted below without problem.
>
> Please be specific with the problems you're having.
>
> Here is some specifics to look at.
>
> The link below fails to load a pdf file completely. Another several links
> also fail to load completely or just load as a line or two of garbage.
>
> Acrobat reader just stops and appears to have completed but there is no
> complete file. Attempts to either print or save the file leave the printer
> and or the file saving in a "hung" mode as incomplete.
>
> The file on the OV crowbar pdf says 2 pages but there is only one that loads
> The file cannot be saves but the first page will print and then the printer
> hangs waiting for more. However both the printer and file saving process
> wait for a second page and hangs.
>
> Other web sites download properly after the ref msg as well as just before
> this reply. I have had no problems with the present software setup and made
> no changes for several months. I am running internet explorer v 5.00 with
> adobe acrobat V 4.06.
>
> The wigwag option files Options 1,2,3,4 just produce a line or two of mixed
> symbols and hang. The mac relay diagram for pitch trim with the mac switch
> box works but the one following option for your "own relays" fails to load
> anything. I get modem activity etc but blank screen after the modem stops
> recieving data.
>
> Under the /articles/ xxx directory the following stop with a blank page but
> S/W says done. Ggalls2ww.pdf, arc_ww.pdf.
>
> Line of two of mixed characters/symbols from gallsww.pdf and aec_ww2.pdf
> files.
>
> Other files work properly as does flaps.pdf so its not all or nothing and
> there are four types of results.
> First it works properly.
> Second its a partial file that displays an incomplete dreawing.
> Third its a balnk page.
> Foruth its a line of two of garbage.
>
> I download PDF files for electronic parts for several dozen parts each week
> (from many different vendors with no problems) so I feel there is something
> unique in this case. I verified this before my first post that you are
> replying to. Also My first attempt to post a email reply was rejected this
> am by your server.
>
> I have downloaded pdf files from Bob in the past OK but that was many months
> (last year sometime and with older internet software) ago perhaps before you
> took over?? What ever the problem is its wide spread with the pdf files.
>
> I tried to go from the top of the web page to get to the below file another
> way and its not on the list of files so there is a missing directory entry
> in the web page.
>
> This all started as I have the very same intercom and wanted to see how Bob
> suggested to wire it.
>
> Paul
>
> At 12:37 PM 5/13/2001Paul Messinger sez:
> >
> >
> >Bob I would guess you have web problems as I can download nothing
> completely
> >as a pdf from your site. I have tried several files with only garbage or
> >partial down loads. Switching to TI semi web site downloads OK same for
> >National.
> >
> >I can provide details off line if req.
> >
> >Paul
> >
> >
> > John, if it were my airplane, here's how I would wire
> > it.
> >
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
> >
> >
> > There are a number of satisfactory ways and a number
> > of unsatisfactory ways. I think the diagram above
> > represents the cleanest system I could build with
> > wire that I commonly use. The 3-conductor shielded
> > and single-conductor shielded illustrated in the
> > wiring diagram are materials I keep in my shop
> > and they're also offered from B&C's website catalog
> > at:
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Mokry <robmokry(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
Bob,
Great information and timely also. I was going to post some intercom questions
also as I have
installed an "two place audible tachometer" model # Flightcom 403d also. Is the
wiring diagram
applicable in my case also?
A few misc. items :
1. the Flightcom instructions and installation kits include and specify a nylon
shouldered
insulation washer for the mike jack only not the headset jack as specified in Bob's
Bible (pg.
16-12 Electromagnetic Compatability & pg. 5-12 Grounding) . Although I ran a seperate
ground wire
from the jacks it appears in a two place tandem metal airplane I may have an induced
ground loop
here. also the mono/stereo switch appears to be grounding the headset jack through
the faceplate
locally as well. My first plan of action is to either isolate the headset jack,
faceplate, and
stereo mono switch from local ground or loose the faceplate and only isolate the
headset jack.
2. The factory instructions and your .pdf file 403MC wiring diagram show connection
to avionics
ground or #3 common ground for avionics.
I have used (RV-4 type) the "forrest-of-fast-on-tabs" for my common ground. How
do I create a
separate "avionics ground" ?
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >Bob,
> >
> >Having read & thought about your last email, I think I may have got my
> >intercom wiring very very wrong. The intercom system is a Flightcom 403MC.
> >I have attached 2 jpegs from the instruction booklet. The first is a block
> >diagram of the 403 itself, and the second is the wiring diagram they
> >supplied.
>
> John, if it were my airplane, here's how I would wire
> it.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
>
> There are a number of satisfactory ways and a number
> of unsatisfactory ways. I think the diagram above
> represents the cleanest system I could build with
> wire that I commonly use. The 3-conductor shielded
> and single-conductor shielded illustrated in the
> wiring diagram are materials I keep in my shop
> and they're also offered from B&C's website catalog
> at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
>
> You may well be able to use wire you have already
> installed by studying the diagram above . . . if you
> use two conductor shielded for the microphones, then
> eliminate the BLUE wire and use the shield ground itself
> as the "blue" conductor.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> If other folks on the list have different intercom
> systems they'd like to make me aware of, I'll try
> to do similar diagrams for the popular models in use.
> Let me know which models . . . if I can download
> factory installation data on the web, I'll do it.
> If the data is not available on the web, I might ask
> one of you to send me copies of the diagrams supplied
> with your hardware.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
Bill...
>>Paul, I'm going to theorize that you've got something in your cache
interfering
with the specific PDFs in question. <<
Bad news and good news...
The bad news:
I've been lurking in the background on this thread to see what conclusions
you came up with, and feel. that I should step in now, too. I don't think
it's a problem with Paul's cache...I have exactly the same problems trying
to load the pdf files that Paul mentioned from your website.
Again, I too, load Adobe pdf files all the time from other sites, and have
just sucessfully viewed some MSDSs this morning...your's still don't work,
and haven't in the four or five attempts I've tried to retrieve them over
the last few weeks or so. I'm using a 1Ghz AMD with Windows 98 SE, and
Internet Explorer on a DSL line through a local (obviously...less than
18,000 feet away! ) service, Frontiernet.
What's interesting, is that for those that appear to load, and don't give me
a "bad file" error, and do show the start of the page on the screen,
completely erase themselves if you try to "grab" and move the page, or click
on the scrollbar.
Now, the good news...If I download the file and save it to my hard drive,
then open it after I'm off your web site, it works fine! To confirm, I just
tried it again with z14.pdf. Empty screen in the Adobe Acrobat Reader
(version 4.0) window, while trying to view it from the the web site, and
yet, displayed perfectly if I then downloaded it to the hard drive and
viewed it from there.
For some reason, while online, it can't open it successfully.
BTW...this same thing happens on my other computer in here, too. It is an
AMD 233 with a 56K modem...same service, and Internet Explorer.
Harley Dixon
Harley(at)AgelessWings.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Mokry <robmokry(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
To my list may I add,
3. Would mag filters/condensors be worthwile?
ps. I was able to open, retreive and save the .pdf files, I did receive a Netscape
error the first
time, perhaps Microsoft explorer would be better? When I used the scroll arrows
it was lost but the
next time I used the button (between the arrows) and draged it and that worked
fine.
Rob Mokry wrote:
>
> Bob,
> Great information and timely also. I was going to post some intercom questions
also as I have
> installed an "two place audible tachometer" model # Flightcom 403d also. Is the
wiring diagram
> applicable in my case also?
> A few misc. items :
> 1. the Flightcom instructions and installation kits include and specify a nylon
shouldered
> insulation washer for the mike jack only not the headset jack as specified in
Bob's Bible (pg.
> 16-12 Electromagnetic Compatability & pg. 5-12 Grounding) . Although I ran a
seperate ground wire
> from the jacks it appears in a two place tandem metal airplane I may have an
induced ground loop
> here. also the mono/stereo switch appears to be grounding the headset jack through
the faceplate
> locally as well. My first plan of action is to either isolate the headset jack,
faceplate, and
> stereo mono switch from local ground or loose the faceplate and only isolate
the headset jack.
>
> 2. The factory instructions and your .pdf file 403MC wiring diagram show connection
to avionics
> ground or #3 common ground for avionics.
> I have used (RV-4 type) the "forrest-of-fast-on-tabs" for my common ground.
How do I create a
> separate "avionics ground" ?
>
> "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> > >Bob,
> > >
> > >Having read & thought about your last email, I think I may have got my
> > >intercom wiring very very wrong. The intercom system is a Flightcom 403MC.
> > >I have attached 2 jpegs from the instruction booklet. The first is a block
> > >diagram of the 403 itself, and the second is the wiring diagram they
> > >supplied.
> >
> > John, if it were my airplane, here's how I would wire
> > it.
> >
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
> >
> > There are a number of satisfactory ways and a number
> > of unsatisfactory ways. I think the diagram above
> > represents the cleanest system I could build with
> > wire that I commonly use. The 3-conductor shielded
> > and single-conductor shielded illustrated in the
> > wiring diagram are materials I keep in my shop
> > and they're also offered from B&C's website catalog
> > at:
> >
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
> >
> > You may well be able to use wire you have already
> > installed by studying the diagram above . . . if you
> > use two conductor shielded for the microphones, then
> > eliminate the BLUE wire and use the shield ground itself
> > as the "blue" conductor.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > If other folks on the list have different intercom
> > systems they'd like to make me aware of, I'll try
> > to do similar diagrams for the popular models in use.
> > Let me know which models . . . if I can download
> > factory installation data on the web, I'll do it.
> > If the data is not available on the web, I might ask
> > one of you to send me copies of the diagrams supplied
> > with your hardware.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD <John.Livingston(at)wpafb.af.mil> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
This is exactly how my system at home and at work respond to aeroelectric pdf files
as well. The work around of saving to disk is also how I cope with it.
I don't have this problem with any other pdf's.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Harley, Ageless Wings [mailto:Harley(at)AgelessWings.com]
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Intercom connections.
Bill...
>>Paul, I'm going to theorize that you've got something in your cache
interfering
with the specific PDFs in question. <<
Bad news and good news...
The bad news:
I've been lurking in the background on this thread to see what conclusions
you came up with, and feel. that I should step in now, too. I don't think
it's a problem with Paul's cache...I have exactly the same problems trying
to load the pdf files that Paul mentioned from your website.
Again, I too, load Adobe pdf files all the time from other sites, and have
just sucessfully viewed some MSDSs this morning...your's still don't work,
and haven't in the four or five attempts I've tried to retrieve them over
the last few weeks or so. I'm using a 1Ghz AMD with Windows 98 SE, and
Internet Explorer on a DSL line through a local (obviously...less than
18,000 feet away! ) service, Frontiernet.
What's interesting, is that for those that appear to load, and don't give me
a "bad file" error, and do show the start of the page on the screen,
completely erase themselves if you try to "grab" and move the page, or click
on the scrollbar.
Now, the good news...If I download the file and save it to my hard drive,
then open it after I'm off your web site, it works fine! To confirm, I just
tried it again with z14.pdf. Empty screen in the Adobe Acrobat Reader
(version 4.0) window, while trying to view it from the the web site, and
yet, displayed perfectly if I then downloaded it to the hard drive and
viewed it from there.
For some reason, while online, it can't open it successfully.
BTW...this same thing happens on my other computer in here, too. It is an
AMD 233 with a 56K modem...same service, and Internet Explorer.
Harley Dixon
Harley(at)AgelessWings.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
Thanks for your comments. And to the several others who commented on and off
this net. As for the several copies of the original subject file I was sent
directly, thanks and each and every one was 100%, this also apparently
proves to me its not MY problem.
My problem here is varied (see another post) but this is the ONLY site that
EVER gives me problems with PDF (or any other for that matter) is this one.
As others are having similar problems and it varies with the file being
downloaded it seems to me to be clear there is something different going on
here. This is not the first problem as I reviewed my old email. A couple of
months ago I had a similar problem and worked around that one but again
after dozens of sites and hundreds of pdf files this is the only place with
problems. There should be no need for non standard methods to get the file.
ALL methods should work all the time.
I nearly always save the file to disk first and then open it and print as
needed. This allows me to reprint and or clip from the file as needed. This
method failed to work as well in most of these cases. I rebooted and tried
again with no luck. Interestingly the same file repeated its malfunction.
The malfunction varied with the file but any specific file was consistant.
I had rebooted and tried several different ways (to download) as well as
going to different sites to see if the problem was mine. This before I
posted my first problem report. I also tried several different files from
this site with results varing to good to bad depending on the specific file.
Again an indication of problems with the site of some sort. I am using
win98se as supplied as do millions of others. My hardware is all
manufacturered dec 2000 or later (not older stuff) and high end designs.
What I cannot understand however is if it is a problem on my end how does my
computer sw know to only malfunction on this sites files and no others??. As
for trace etc there is no control by any internet user on the path taken by
any specific file transfer and it is usually different each time.
I have used "reload" more times in the ladt 24 hours than all this year. The
need to reload a web page etc is extremely rare here regardless of where its
comming from. Frankly downloading from aussy land is quicker.
I have the full adobe acrobat program as I publish newsletters manuals and
other documents and distribute them over the web. I therefore have
experience in PDF files and in no other place have I have a problem not
cured with a refresh command. Here the problem is constant and varied
including inability to load a file and loading corrupted files.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Harley, Ageless Wings
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 5:22 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Intercom connections.
Bill...
>>Paul, I'm going to theorize that you've got something in your cache
interfering
with the specific PDFs in question. <<
Bad news and good news...
The bad news:
I've been lurking in the background on this thread to see what conclusions
you came up with, and feel. that I should step in now, too. I don't think
it's a problem with Paul's cache...I have exactly the same problems trying
to load the pdf files that Paul mentioned from your website.
Again, I too, load Adobe pdf files all the time from other sites, and have
just sucessfully viewed some MSDSs this morning...your's still don't work,
and haven't in the four or five attempts I've tried to retrieve them over
the last few weeks or so. I'm using a 1Ghz AMD with Windows 98 SE, and
Internet Explorer on a DSL line through a local (obviously...less than
18,000 feet away! ) service, Frontiernet.
What's interesting, is that for those that appear to load, and don't give me
a "bad file" error, and do show the start of the page on the screen,
completely erase themselves if you try to "grab" and move the page, or click
on the scrollbar.
Now, the good news...If I download the file and save it to my hard drive,
then open it after I'm off your web site, it works fine! To confirm, I just
tried it again with z14.pdf. Empty screen in the Adobe Acrobat Reader
(version 4.0) window, while trying to view it from the the web site, and
yet, displayed perfectly if I then downloaded it to the hard drive and
viewed it from there.
For some reason, while online, it can't open it successfully.
BTW...this same thing happens on my other computer in here, too. It is an
AMD 233 with a 56K modem...same service, and Internet Explorer.
Harley Dixon
Harley(at)AgelessWings.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
At 05:22 AM 5/14/2001Harley, Ageless Wings sez:
>For some reason, while online, it can't open it successfully.
>
>BTW...this same thing happens on my other computer in here, too. It is an
>AMD 233 with a 56K modem...same service, and Internet Explorer.
>
>Harley Dixon
>
>Harley(at)AgelessWings.com
When you view it directly without first saving to disk, you are depending
on your browser's helper or plugin application. Possible that is
incompatible with the .pdf.
When you view the saved file, you use Acrobat Reader, not a plugin. I have
tested them with Netscape 4.77 and 6.01 and Explorer 5.5 with the latest
Acrobat Reader - 5.0. Works fine on all machines here. Also works in Linux
- Xwindows.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
>Bob I am having problems with downloading pdf files and the attached msg is
>the last in a series.
I'm at a loss to explain this phenomenon. I use Adobe Acrobat
to generate the .pdf files and I test them from my computer
after uploading. I've never had a problem with Netscape
and the latest Adobe reader. I do have problems similar
to those voiced by others when I try to use Internet Explorer.
One of the byte-thrashing gurus at Raytheon suggested that
it may have something to do with the order in which software
is installed and how the various install programs modify
the Window registry files.
I have 4 computers here at the house that can access
the Internet. Two are Win98 and two are WinMillennium
machines. The Win98 machines consistently barf on .pdf
downloads from IE and work find with Netscape. After
first barf on a .pdf downloads, one of the Win98 machines
won't even open a .html file consistently . . . it throws
the source text on the screen as if it were a text file
and ignores the .htm extension.
Neither Win98 machine under IE likes to download.pdf
from my site. However, they will download very large
.pdf files from other sites. Both WinMillennium machines
will download from my site using IE with no problems.
Beats the crap out of me.
I've just ordered the latest version of Adobe Acrobat.
We'll see if there might have been an itty-bitty bug
that's been fixed.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
>
>Bob,
>Great information and timely also. I was going to post some intercom questions
also as I have
>installed an "two place audible tachometer" model # Flightcom 403d also. Is the
wiring diagram
>applicable in my case also?
I think so. You use the aux audio (music) input to pipe other
sources into the intercom system.
>A few misc. items :
>1. the Flightcom instructions and installation kits include and specify a nylon
shouldered
>insulation washer for the mike jack only not the headset jack as specified in
Bob's Bible (pg.
>16-12 Electromagnetic Compatability & pg. 5-12 Grounding) . Although I ran a
seperate ground wire
>from the jacks it appears in a two place tandem metal airplane I may have an induced
ground loop
>here. also the mono/stereo switch appears to be grounding the headset jack through
the faceplate
>locally as well. My first plan of action is to either isolate the headset jack,
faceplate, and
>stereo mono switch from local ground or loose the faceplate and only isolate the
headset jack.
Use isolation washers on ALL audio system jacks.
>2. The factory instructions and your .pdf file 403MC wiring diagram show connection
to avionics
>ground or #3 common ground for avionics.
>I have used (RV-4 type) the "forrest-of-fast-on-tabs" for my common ground. How
do I create a
>separate "avionics ground" ?
The avionics ground may well be the panel ground block
on the firewall . . . just use the SAME ground for all
avionics and audio systems.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
Bob and others. I have good luck downloading and opening the files or
opening them in the plugin. I just tested several .pdfs using Win 2K and
Acrobat 5.01. Each one opened instantly.
I have a Win 98 machine but I have loads of problems with Exploder on that
one. Crashes the computer running out of resources. So my test results for
Win 98 would be unusual.
At 01:32 AM 5/14/2001Robert L. Nuckolls, III sez:
> Neither Win98 machine under IE likes to download.pdf
> from my site. However, they will download very large
> .pdf files from other sites. Both WinMillennium machines
> will download from my site using IE with no problems.
> Beats the crap out of me.
>
> I've just ordered the latest version of Adobe Acrobat.
> We'll see if there might have been an itty-bitty bug
> that's been fixed.
>
> Any ideas would be appreciated.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronald A. Cox" <racox(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/13/01 |
>
> Paul,
>
> I host both Bob's e-mail and web site. I am interested in helping you with
> problems. We are unaware of any problems. I personally tested the d/l of
> the .pdf's quoted below without problem.
>
> Please be specific with the problems you're having
>
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
> >
Paul:
I've occasionally had such problems in the past, but they usually
mysteriously clear up. But right now, I can't download the above .pdf
either. I use Netscape (ver. 4.76) with Win 98SE.
I get a mostly loaded and visible first page (after the first try produces a
blank page), and then Acrobat says "Document: Done". When I try to scroll
down, it won't show anything (pages go blank). When I try to print, it
prints about half the page, and then stops. It says (after about 5 minutes)
"Unable to print document, there was an I/O error, connection with source
timed out."
I've downloaded other .pdf files from the site without problems, so I don't
understand this either. But since you mentioned the cache, I've cleared
both disk and memory caches, and tried again.
No luck. Still get half the first page, and it stops dead. Always at the
same point.
However, for troubleshooting purposes, I just tried using Internet Explorer,
and it seems to work fine.
Strangely enough, now that I got the file successfully with IE, it now comes
up fine in Netscape. Strange stuff out there...
So it must be something in the setup that's incompatible with Netscape. But
as I said, I can usually access everything fine.
Thought this information might be helpful.
Ron Cox
(Longtime 'Connection subscriber)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
>
>To my list may I add,
>3. Would mag filters/condensors be worthwile?
These are easily added later if needed. I've
never had a mag noise problem that was helped
grounds loops always worked.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Bob,
You might try going the other way, i.e. setting the Acrobat distiller to
produce an earlier version (say version 3) compatible PDF file. You might
also tweak some of the other options. I've done that with some success when
I had to reach a large population with varied systems. There is also a
difference in the PDF's produced from the distiller vs PDF Writer. The
distiller seems to produce the more globally readable file. Gee, Adobe can't
follow their own "standard"... go figure. Since you've got a machine that
replicates the problem, you'll be able to tell if any of the above helps.
Regards,
Greg Young
RV-6 N6GY Houston (DWH) wiring & systems
> III"
>
> >Bob I am having problems with downloading pdf files and the
> attached msg is
> >the last in a series.
>
>
>
> I'm at a loss to explain this phenomenon. I use Adobe Acrobat
> to generate the .pdf files and I test them from my computer
> after uploading. I've never had a problem with Netscape
> and the latest Adobe reader. I do have problems similar
> to those voiced by others when I try to use Internet Explorer.
> One of the byte-thrashing gurus at Raytheon suggested that
> it may have something to do with the order in which software
> is installed and how the various install programs modify
> the Window registry files.
>
> I have 4 computers here at the house that can access
> the Internet. Two are Win98 and two are WinMillennium
> machines. The Win98 machines consistently barf on .pdf
> downloads from IE and work find with Netscape. After
> first barf on a .pdf downloads, one of the Win98 machines
> won't even open a .html file consistently . . . it throws
> the source text on the screen as if it were a text file
> and ignores the .htm extension.
>
> Neither Win98 machine under IE likes to download.pdf
> from my site. However, they will download very large
> .pdf files from other sites. Both WinMillennium machines
> will download from my site using IE with no problems.
> Beats the crap out of me.
>
> I've just ordered the latest version of Adobe Acrobat.
> We'll see if there might have been an itty-bitty bug
> that's been fixed.
>
> Any ideas would be appreciated.
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z7-ebus.pdf file made available |
>
>
>>Thanks so much for that Z-7 ebus file which relates to
>>the Rotax engines. Could I impose and ask for that
>>file in AutoCad
>
>... make that .DXF so anyone with a non-AutoCAD CAD application can
>also benefit from it, please! I suggest that Bob might standardize on
>.DXF for drawings available for download.
I've considered this. The numbers of files I need to generate
and maintain is already pretty big and growing. Given that
you can get a very capable drafting program that will work the
.dwg files for free, I'm reluctant to add to my workload.
See:
http://www.cadopia.com/
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | [Fwd: Returned mail: Service unavailable] |
Bob,
have made three attempts to e-mail you directly and receive the
attached notice.
Warren
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON(at)earthlink.net>
from pool0188.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.232.188]
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
----- Transcript of session follows -----
.... while talking to dr-teeth.eucleides.com.:
>>> MAIL From:
<<< 550 Spam source and ISP netblocks 207.217.120.62 rejected; see http://www.orbs.org - Spam source - ISP is blocking tests
554 ... Service unavailable
Reporting-MTA: dns; snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net
Received-From-MTA: DNS; pool0188.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net
Arrival-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:44:53 -0700 (PDT)
Final-Recipient: RFC822; nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com
Action: failed
Remote-MTA: DNS; dr-teeth.eucleides.com
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 Spam source and ISP netblocks 207.217.120.62 rejected; see http://www.orbs.org - Spam source - ISP is blocking tests
Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William B. Swears" <wswears(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
I'm running Netscape Communicator 4.77 and having no problem downloading the
.pdf's
others have had.
I am using a high speed connection. Could it be a timing out problem with
standard
modem connections?
WBS
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | A Second To Paul's Analysis |
| From: | Gary Graham <beeb(at)teleport.com> |
Bob, Paul is giving you a good "Heads Up" on the download issue.
About the directory comment: I just assumed you were hiding a lot of your
work in an "invisible answer folder" just waiting for the inevitable
question. You then provide a direct link. Does all that info reside on the
web? , or do you up load as necessary?
WE!!!!!!!!!! really appreciate you being out there. Gary the guy and
Pugsley the dog
_______
\/)"(\/
(_o_) ruff!!!!!!
/ \/)
(| | | |)
oo-oo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
>>When you view it directly without first saving to disk, you are depending
on your browser's helper or plugin application. Possible that is
incompatible with the .pdf.<<
As I said:
>>Again, I too, load Adobe pdf files all the time from other sites, and have
just sucessfully viewed some MSDSs this morning...your's still don't work,
and haven't in the four or five attempts I've tried to retrieve them over
the last few weeks or so.<<
>>When you view the saved file, you use Acrobat Reader, not a plugin. <<
Again, I view pdf files all the time...your web site is the only one that
acts this way.
I have never had to save a pdf file to disk to view it...I save them only
AFTER I've viewed them online, and I think I may find a need for them. I
can't view yours online...
Harley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
>>I am using a high speed connection. Could it be a timing out problem with
standard
modem connections?<<
Nope...I use a DSL line...can't get them either...and, again, only the pdf
files on his web site. Other files on other sites have been, and continue to
be, fine. Never saw this happen in my 20 or so years of online work until
now.
Harley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
>
> These are easily added later if needed. I've
> never had a mag noise problem that was helped
> grounds loops always worked.
*** Amen!
And not only in airplanes. When having some odd noise problem in any
piece of equipment, I ALWAYS look for ground loops first. My first
experience was with a Heathkit oscilloscope that somebody gave me in High
School. It showed a mild 60Hz trace on the screen, which went away when you
shorted out the input connector. After endless fussing with filter caps
etc, I thought to borrow another oscilloscope from a friend. I clipped
the second scope's ground to the chassis of the bad scope, then - just by
accident - probed another part of the chassis...Hey, there's a voltage here!
It turned out that Heathkit chassis are aluminum held together with steel
screws. Sound familiar? The aluminum and the steel would set up a little
galvanic dance, and a resistance would form.
That was my first experience with ground loops. There have been many
since. My rules of thumb have become:
* Use a single ground point.
* Do not pass RF current through a chassis ( or airframe ).
* Use a single ground point.
* Do not pass audio current through a chassis.
* Use a single ground point.
* Do not pass AC current through a chassis.
* Use a single ground point.
Somebody had done a half-assed installation of a Sigtronics intercom in
my Cessna. I redid the whole thing with a single ground point, and with
insulated phone and mike jacks ( How can you have a single ground point if
jacks are grounding out hither and yon? That's why they should be insulated
).
When I tried it out, I had to get out of the airplane to verify that my
strobe still worked...
And that was without any new equipment, no filters, nada. Just proper
single point grounding.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A Second To Paul's Analysis |
>
>About the directory comment: I just assumed you were hiding a lot of your
>work in an "invisible answer folder" just waiting for the inevitable
>question. You then provide a direct link. Does all that info reside on the
>web? , or do you up load as necessary?
I store no work in progress on the website server . . . I generate
all new items on my desktop and test them before loading to the
website and testing again . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
I wanted to view these two documents but they will not display via IE 5.5
with the latest everything. I was able to find the files and save them to
my hard drive and they opened quickly and well with Adobe 4.05c.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Intercom connections.
>
> Bob I would guess you have web problems as I can download nothing
completely
> as a pdf from your site. I have tried several files with only garbage or
> partial down loads. Switching to TI semi web site downloads OK same for
> National.
>
> I can provide details off line if req.
>
> Paul
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 5:47 AM
> To: D John Akerman
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Intercom connections.
>
>
>
>
> >Bob,
> >
> >Having read & thought about your last email, I think I may have got my
> >intercom wiring very very wrong. The intercom system is a Flightcom
403MC.
> >I have attached 2 jpegs from the instruction booklet. The first is a
block
> >diagram of the 403 itself, and the second is the wiring diagram they
> >supplied.
>
> John, if it were my airplane, here's how I would wire
> it.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
>
>
> There are a number of satisfactory ways and a number
> of unsatisfactory ways. I think the diagram above
> represents the cleanest system I could build with
> wire that I commonly use. The 3-conductor shielded
> and single-conductor shielded illustrated in the
> wiring diagram are materials I keep in my shop
> and they're also offered from B&C's website catalog
> at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
>
> You may well be able to use wire you have already
> installed by studying the diagram above . . . if you
> use two conductor shielded for the microphones, then
> eliminate the BLUE wire and use the shield ground itself
> as the "blue" conductor.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> If other folks on the list have different intercom
> systems they'd like to make me aware of, I'll try
> to do similar diagrams for the popular models in use.
> Let me know which models . . . if I can download
> factory installation data on the web, I'll do it.
> If the data is not available on the web, I might ask
> one of you to send me copies of the diagrams supplied
> with your hardware.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William B. Swears" <wswears(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A Second To Paul's Analysis |
This is weird,
Every link I get that somebody says doesn't work, does for me. I guess I
should thank my
lucky stars and drive on.
Bill
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >About the directory comment: I just assumed you were hiding a lot of your
> >work in an "invisible answer folder" just waiting for the inevitable
> >question. You then provide a direct link. Does all that info reside on the
> >web? , or do you up load as necessary?
>
> I store no work in progress on the website server . . . I generate
> all new items on my desktop and test them before loading to the
> website and testing again . . .
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: [Fwd: Returned mail: Service unavailable] |
Your ISP's e-mail service has been blocked by the great spam-filter
in the sky. There are a lot of web services providers that choose
not to do all of their homework with respect to controlling unauthorized
access to their system. When such systems are discovered, they can
be "blacklisted" by the folks at http://www.orbs.org
Many ISPs subscribe to the blacklist and automatically reject any mail
coming from transgressor services . . . because your service doesn't
block open relay of e-mail from just anybody, there's no way to
tell legitimate male from spam. When you get this kind of message,
you need to forward it to the customer support folks with your
Internet service provider.
In the mean time, send your original message to nuckolls(at)kscable.com
>
>
>Bob,
> have made three attempts to e-mail you directly and receive the
>attached notice.
>Warren
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable
>Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON(at)earthlink.net>
>To:
>
>
>from pool0188.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.232.188]
>
> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
>
>
> ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>.... while talking to dr-teeth.eucleides.com.:
>>>> MAIL From:
><<< 550 Spam source and ISP netblocks 207.217.120.62 rejected; see http://www.orbs.org - Spam source - ISP is blocking tests
>554 ... Service unavailable
>
>
>Reporting-MTA: dns; snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net
>Received-From-MTA: DNS; pool0188.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net
>Arrival-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:44:53 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Final-Recipient: RFC822; nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com
>Action: failed
>Remote-MTA: DNS; dr-teeth.eucleides.com
>Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 Spam source and ISP netblocks 207.217.120.62 rejected; see http://www.orbs.org - Spam source - ISP is blocking tests
>Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: [Fwd: Returned mail: Service unavailable] |
Thank you for your assistance. Have followed your instructions.
Cheers,
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
At 03:04 PM 5/14/2001Fred Kirkland sez:
><fdkirk@cox-internet.com>
>
>I wanted to view these two documents but they will not display via IE 5.5
>with the latest everything. I was able to find the files and save them to
>my hard drive and they opened quickly and well with Adobe 4.05c.
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf
I just checked both of the above using Win 2k and Win 98. I couldn't see
how to check the version of the plugin for Acrobat being used but the
Explorer is the latest from the MS Win Updates site. I installed the latest
Acrobat Reader which is 5.01 and made sure it updated both Netscape and
Explorer in the install.
I have no problems with any combination of downloading then viewing or
displaying directly in the acrobat plugin.
Fred, would you upgrade your Acrobat to the most current and try it again?
I just verified they also view fine with Win 95 OS/R2, Explorer 4.01 and
Acrobat 3.02 on an old Compaq Notebook. Seemed to work fine.
I don't have anything that fails.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup |
I've dropped Acrobat's compatibility back to version
3.0. Folks that have had trouble in the past are invited
to try:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
and see if this makes a difference for them.
I've also regenerated:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/760v2.pdf
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/760v1.pdf
all three of these pages now download and display with
IE5.0 and WIN98 . . . (previously troublesome)
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: [Fwd: Returned mail: Service |
unavailable]
Warren,
This is telling you that your ISP has a blacklisted mail server. You can
find the details of why and what to do about it by going to the link in the
message. The IP of the blacklisted server is also given in the message. In
this case it is 207.217.120.62. To look this up directly use this URL:
<http://lookup.orbs.org/verify.php3?address=207.217.120.62>
If you go to that link, you'll see that Earthlink has corrected the problem
and that server is no longer blacklisted. I have seen major providers
having this problem come and go. The reason is that they operate smart
hosts for their clients and when a client has an open relay and it in turn
relays through the smarthost, both servers get listed in ORBS if they have
relayed spam. Called a two tier relay. Something new has just come out
experimentally so that the actual blacklisting of smarthosts can be delayed
3 days giving the provider time to coach his client on the rules of e-mail
and get the problem fixed.
Please try sending to Bob or me again.
In the future, if this happens to you - mail bounce due to blacklisting -
contact your provider immediately. They can remove themselves from the
blacklist database in seconds and then they will be retested if the problem
is fixed, they stay out of the database.
At 09:57 AM 5/14/2001Warren D. Shoun sez:
>
>
>
>Bob,
> have made three attempts to e-mail you directly and receive the
>attached notice.
>Warren
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable
>Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON(at)earthlink.net>
>To:
>
>
>from pool0188.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.232.188]
>
> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
>
>
> ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>.... while talking to dr-teeth.eucleides.com.:
> >>> MAIL From:
><<< 550 Spam source and ISP netblocks 207.217.120.62 rejected; see
>http://www.orbs.org - Spam source - ISP is blocking tests
>554 ... Service unavailable
>
>
>Reporting-MTA: dns; snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net
>Received-From-MTA: DNS; pool0188.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net
>Arrival-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:44:53 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Final-Recipient: RFC822; nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com
>Action: failed
>Remote-MTA: DNS; dr-teeth.eucleides.com
>Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 Spam source and ISP netblocks 207.217.120.62
>rejected; see http://www.orbs.org - Spam source - ISP is blocking tests
>Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup |
That made a difference. The two 760 links work now. Before they didn't,
for me. Thanks.
Larry Bowen
Win2K, IE 5, Acrobat 5, RV-8
Email: Larry(at)BowenAero.com
Web: http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> III"
>
> I've dropped Acrobat's compatibility back to version
> 3.0. Folks that have had trouble in the past are invited
> to try:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
>
> and see if this makes a difference for them.
>
> I've also regenerated:
>
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/760v2.pdf
>
> and
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/760v1.pdf
>
> all three of these pages now download and display with
> IE5.0 and WIN98 . . . (previously troublesome)
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup |
Bob, that worked for me. The file loaded, displayed properly, and printed
without a hitch.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:13 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup
>
> I've dropped Acrobat's compatibility back to version
> 3.0. Folks that have had trouble in the past are invited
> to try:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
>
> and see if this makes a difference for them.
>
> I've also regenerated:
>
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/760v2.pdf
>
> and
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/760v1.pdf
>
> all three of these pages now download and display with
> IE5.0 and WIN98 . . . (previously troublesome)
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
Bob or ?
I have some aircraft wire that I don't know how to tell what it is. It
has printed on the wire "?ms-13-3?/1/1-1? 02307. It appears
"not" to be copper wire. maybe aluminum?
Is there any way to know what this is. Sorry for the vagueness but
the numbers are very hard to read.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Bob or ?
>
>I have some aircraft wire that I don't know how to tell what it is. It
>has printed on the wire "?ms-13-3?/1/1-1? 02307. It appears
>"not" to be copper wire. maybe aluminum?
>Is there any way to know what this is. Sorry for the vagueness but
>the numbers are very hard to read.
>
>Jim
Cut off a 6" chunk and send it to me. I'll get it
identified.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
Paul, I loaded Adobe 5.01 and it loads right up but, because it did with my
earlier version after Bob changed the settings he did, I can't tell you it
made any difference.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Intercom connections.
>
> At 03:04 PM 5/14/2001Fred Kirkland sez:
> ><fdkirk@cox-internet.com>
> >
> >I wanted to view these two documents but they will not display via IE 5.5
> >with the latest everything. I was able to find the files and save them
to
> >my hard drive and they opened quickly and well with Adobe 4.05c.
> >
> >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf
> >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf
>
> I just checked both of the above using Win 2k and Win 98. I couldn't see
> how to check the version of the plugin for Acrobat being used but the
> Explorer is the latest from the MS Win Updates site. I installed the
latest
> Acrobat Reader which is 5.01 and made sure it updated both Netscape and
> Explorer in the install.
>
> I have no problems with any combination of downloading then viewing or
> displaying directly in the acrobat plugin.
>
> Fred, would you upgrade your Acrobat to the most current and try it again?
> I just verified they also view fine with Win 95 OS/R2, Explorer 4.01 and
> Acrobat 3.02 on an old Compaq Notebook. Seemed to work fine.
>
> I don't have anything that fails.
>
> Paul Franz
>
> PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
> (425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
> (801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
> <http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Latimer" <ljm10587(at)qwest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup |
This now works for me. Before I was experiencing the same problems as the
other folks. I'm running Windows Me, a DSL and Acrobat 5.01.
Jerry Latimer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
> I've dropped Acrobat's compatibility back to version
> 3.0. Folks that have had trouble in the past are invited
> to try:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
>
> and see if this makes a difference for them.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Oberst" <joberst(at)columbus.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup |
I had the problem, and this works now for me.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 9:13 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup
>
> I've dropped Acrobat's compatibility back to version
> 3.0. Folks that have had trouble in the past are invited
> to try:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
>
> and see if this makes a difference for them.
>
> I've also regenerated:
>
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/760v2.pdf
>
> and
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/760v1.pdf
>
> all three of these pages now download and display with
> IE5.0 and WIN98 . . . (previously troublesome)
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wesley & Susan Knettle <wsknettl(at)centurytel.net> |
Bob,
Where can I find Inter-Vox ICS wiring diagram on the net?
Wes K
Wisconsin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark A. Naig" <mark_a_naig(at)earthlink.net> |
Hello Y'all,
Adobe has recently issued Acrobat 5.0. I don't know if it will solve all
the viewing of PDF files, but it might help. Here's the link to get it.
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
Sincerely,
Mark A. Naig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup |
Bob..
>>Folks that have had trouble in the past are invited to try:<<
Yep...works fine now!
Thanks for the effort, Bob..
Harley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup |
Bob,
You're great. Amaze me everytime with your tact and thoughtfulness. Thanks
for the simple and elegant solution. Will hold fine until people upgrade
their plugins.
Not sure what the combination was. I was testing to see and just as I found
an ancient Compaq Notebook with Win 95 OSR/2 and Exploder 4 and Acrobat
reader 3.01 and was able to d/l and view in the browser successfully, I
find out you've already downgraded the .PDFs. So, I actually never got to
experience the problem. You're too quick!
Thanks for being so responsive.
At 06:13 PM 5/14/2001Robert L. Nuckolls, III sez:
>
>
>I've dropped Acrobat's compatibility back to version
>3.0. Folks that have had trouble in the past are invited
>to try:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fc403mc.pdf
>
>and see if this makes a difference for them.
>
>I've also regenerated:
>
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/760v2.pdf
>
>and
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/760v1.pdf
>
>all three of these pages now download and display with
>IE5.0 and WIN98 . . . (previously troublesome)
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Condrey, Bob" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections |
For what it's worth, I don't have any troubles with the .pdf in question or
others on Bob's site. To assist those that might be trying to troubleshoot
the problem, here is my system configuration:
Windows NT 4.0, build 1381, service pack 4
Dell Pentium III, 128MB RAM
Internet Explorer 5.00.2314.1003
Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom connections. |
Neither Win98 machine under IE likes to download.pdf
from my site. However, they will download very large
.pdf files from other sites. Both WinMillennium machines
will download from my site using IE with no problems.
Beats the crap out of me.
I've just ordered the latest version of Adobe Acrobat.
We'll see if there might have been an itty-bitty bug
that's been fixed.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Bob . . .
This says it all to me. First; others do have problems unique to SW config
as well as this site vs common problems with all or many sites.
I might point out that there are required patches for acrobat and acrobat
reader V4.xx. The early V4 sw had bugs. The latest versions are acrobat 4.06
and reader v4.05. Yes there is a very recent release of v5. Based on past
performance I suggest waiting for a while the bugs (if any) are sorted out.
I have the final versions of V4.xx and have no problems with any other site
or files nor do any receiving pdf files I generate.
In conclusion thanks to all who helped me with files and supporting comments
that there was a problem not unique to me.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Adobe Acrobat setup - V5.0 is BETTER(?) |
I just downloaded and installed Acrobat Reader v.5.0
and tried it with IE5.0 . . . I could find no .pdf files
linked via the browser from my website that would not open
gracefully with the new version of Acrobat.
Soooooo, with guarded optimism, perhaps the latest version
has fixed some problems? Would be interested in hearing
experiences of others. There are still plenty of old
.pdf files on my website that were compiled using the same
settings as files that used to cause problems and now
appear to be cured.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/gallsww.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/galls2ww.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/sos_v3.pdf
The above pages were all reported to have problems at
one time or another.
Can any of you can confirm that one or more of these pages
is troublesome with any current combination of browser
and Acrobat Reader but gets well when you upgrade to
AR v.5.0?
I can go through the website and recompile all of the .pdfs
to the older format but it would be a lot of work . . . I'm
willing to do what's necessary but it would be really nice
to know of a simpler solution.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup |
>
>Not sure what the combination was. I was testing to see and just as I found
>an ancient Compaq Notebook with Win 95 OSR/2 and Exploder 4 and Acrobat
>reader 3.01 and was able to d/l and view in the browser successfully, I
>find out you've already downgraded the .PDFs. So, I actually never got to
>experience the problem. You're too quick!
Paul,
Try the items I referenced in another post a few minutes
ago. These are .pdfs with "old" settings. AR5.0 seems
to have fixed any problems that I was able to duplicate
from any of my computers. I'm going to go try the upgrade
on the other WIN98 machine.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Batting 1000 . . . |
Just tried AR4.0 again on my other Win98 machine. Netscape
and AR4.0 worked fine. IE and AR4.0 would do about half a
download of the "old" .pdf files and lock up. Had to
ctrl-alt-del to get out of Internet Explorer.
Used control panel to un-install AR4.0 and then installed
AR5.0 . . . now both IE and Netscape will open previously
troublesome files and view/print/save as desired.
Looking forward to hearing experiences of others.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Adobe Acrobat setup - V5.0 is BETTER(?) |
| From: | "Steve Williams" <sbw(at)sbw.org> |
02:13:36 AM
I still have problems with the first of those files in Acrobat 4 (not
Reader, but the full Acrobat product), using the plug-in in Internet
Explorer 5.
I worry about upgrading to Acrobat 5, because when Adobe released Acrobat
4, the default behavior was to produce PDF files that did not fail
gracefully in Acrobat 3. Instead, they would appear misleadingly to work,
and then after sucking you in, produce meaningless error messages. I found
that an unforgiveable gaffe, and I pray they didn't make such an idiotic
error with Acrobat 5. I cringe at the thought of finding out.
I understand the work it'd take to produce the PDFs again. Too bad Adobe
screwed us all in that way, and too bad there isn't anything better out
there.
But hey, I guess I'm just in a black mood tonight.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Changes to Adobe Acrobat setup |
At 09:00 PM 5/15/2001Robert L. Nuckolls, III sez:
> Paul,
>
> Try the items I referenced in another post a few minutes
> ago. These are .pdfs with "old" settings. AR5.0 seems
> to have fixed any problems that I was able to duplicate
> from any of my computers. I'm going to go try the upgrade
> on the other WIN98 machine.
All three view ok at the first but one gets vertical streaks in it if you
scroll it up and down much. The second one on the list shows a blank first
pagewhen used as a browser plugin. Starting from double clicking in Windows
Explorer doesn't have the problem but if you go page down then page up the
first page now displays. I upgraded to the latest Acrobat and had no
problems even using the old Internet Explorer version 4.0. So, the solution
appears to me is to tell people to keep their systems current. Go to
Acrobat Reader 5.01 - its free.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Adobe Acrobat setup - V5.0 is |
BETTER(?)
At 12:10 AM 5/16/2001Steve Williams sez:
>I understand the work it'd take to produce the PDFs again. Too bad Adobe
>screwed us all in that way, and too bad there isn't anything better out
>there.
>
>But hey, I guess I'm just in a black mood tonight.
You might take a look at Linux. UNIX from the beginning has used PostScript
as the output format. Adobe had the copyrights and then migrated it to a
page standard somewhat like EPS and that's about it. Using Linux, create
any output file in PostScript which is a standard printer file then use the
command line program ps2pdf free from Aladdin Ghostscript and you have
perfect .PDF files every time. Then display them in Netscape and don't
bother with Bill's software at all and there is no problem viewing at all.
One thing though, smoothed TrueType fonts work better as screen fonts than
do type I and type II Postscript fonts.
On Microsoft's side, if you also update to the latest software, your system
will be far more stable and functional. Win 2k is a big improvement over NT
and light years ahead of Win 9x. Getting all the latest software will
require a faster computer with more RAM and Disk space.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Adobe Acrobat setup - V5.0 is BETTER(?) |
Mornin', Bob...
>>Can any of you can confirm that one or more of these pages is troublesome
with any current combination of browser and Acrobat Reader<<
All seem to work fine now...IE 5.5, Reader 5.0.
Thanks for the effort!
Harley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Batting 1000 . . . |
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Batting 1000 . . .
Just tried AR4.0 again on my other Win98 machine. Netscape
and AR4.0 worked fine. IE and AR4.0 would do about half a
download of the "old" .pdf files and lock up. Had to
ctrl-alt-del to get out of Internet Explorer.
Used control panel to un-install AR4.0 and then installed
AR5.0 . . . now both IE and Netscape will open previously
troublesome files and view/print/save as desired.
Looking forward to hearing experiences of others.
Bob . . .
Good work BUT we (or at least I) still think there is a different problem
lurking in "your" web server.
How does ANY software know or care about the file type in a simple file
download? I suggest it does not matter as its just data until an application
opens it. Remaking and reinstalling new files potentially masks the
fundamental issue in my opinion and the following is my analysis.
PDF files downloaded directly as a file to disk NEVER use any part of
acrobat SW and yet fail to download completely or have errors embedded
within the file. How does my software single out PDF files from ONLY your
site and fail to download ONLY these while having zero problems with files
from dozens of other web sites?????
Based on several pdf files sent to me directly by list members (that they
downloaded from your site)that I opened with no problems but could not
directly download even as a file from your web site; I question that the
version of acrobat is at all related to the subject problem. Simply
reinstalling the same file in a different location on the server could be a
factor. The inability to directly download some files and correctly download
others sure seems to me to NOT related to acrobat as acrobat is not a part
of that process.
It would appear to me there is some incompatibility with win98se (several
others with problems use win98se) and the web server independent of pdf
files. After all this web site is the ONLY site out of dozens that I use
that has ever causes download problems. In addition, my same software
downloaded some of same files from your old web server (last year) and I
needed to redownload these files recently due to a zip disk failure where
the subject files were stored. Here the only SW difference was the web
server had changed to Mr Paul F. servers. If its not his server etc how is
that possible???
I am concerned that simple using a different version and/or your remaking
different versions of the same file simply masks the real problem and
potentially simply delays a reoccurrence of this problem downstream in time.
We have seen that while there were no complants (per Paul F.) prior to mine
(and this is not accurate as I had a pdf problem a couple of months ago and
reported this to the list and was able to work around it at the time), there
were list members with problems. Based on typical responses to problems the
1/2 dozen commenters is likely only 10% or those who really have problems.
In any event I have spent more time than I have to spend on this issue so my
posts are ending with no resolution for me.
I will be making the acrobat upgrade but in my case its not free as I have
the full version and its no priority rush to update to me as I have no
problems with V4.06 and my customers with that version.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Batting 1000 . . . |
At 08:52 AM 5/16/2001Paul Messinger sez:
>Good work BUT we (or at least I) still think there is a different problem
>lurking in "your" web server.
>
>How does ANY software know or care about the file type in a simple file
>download?
Using http the server delivers the file according to the designated MIME
type. Using ftp, there is no conversion specified. However MS applications
rather than using MIME types will treat the file according to its idea of
what the file extension is.
> I suggest it does not matter as its just data until an application
>opens it. Remaking and reinstalling new files potentially masks the
>fundamental issue in my opinion and the following is my analysis.
There is no problem for anyone with a "save to disk" the problem comes
using the version 4 plugin in IE only. Using version 4 of the reader after
you have downloaded the file does not use the browser plugin.
Try this test. If you have saved one of the troublesome .pdfs, then open it
up with IE, locally. You have to open it up using the file menu. You'll
then see the same problem you did downloading.
It is not the server, it is a combination of the Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
software running as a plugin in IE. The plugin code is different that then
direct application. There is no problem with the plugin in Netscape either.
You can solve your problem by simply upgrading Acrobat to the newest
version and don't do any analyzing at all.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Batting 1000 . . . |
There is no problem for anyone with a "save to disk" the problem comes
using the version 4 plugin in IE only. Using version 4 of the reader after
you have downloaded the file does not use the browser plugin.
Paul Franz
You are TOTALLY wrong. The problem I have had is mostly with the "save to
disk"!!!! I normally never use download and display directly. This (save to
disk) method can and does result in in failure to download properly and or
completely from ONLY your server The resulting incomplete download hangs up
my computer (waiting for the end of the file) and the program hanging is the
connection to YOUR server. In fact your server showed me messages and
hang-ups I have never experienced in many years of internet usage.
See a prior post this AM by another person stating it can be a server
problem. Regardless of the fancy references to SW methods and modules it
remains a FACT that I am not alone with problems UNIQUE to your server
setup.
However since you are seemingly unwilling to accept this fact I suggest we
ALL get on with life as it is.
Again I remind you that the same identical files downloaded properly before
Bob changed to your server. If its only a server change and both my and
Bob's SW is the same how could the problem be elsewhere??.
Sorry to sound upset its just frustrating to send comments and not have them
addressed or ignored completely as has been typical in this thread.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Adkins" <ccadkins(at)dragg.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Batting 1000 . . . |
Hello all,
I am in the process of re-fitting a Q2 which had flown around 150 hours.
Entirely new panel/radios and complete firewall forward.
My question is this: I joined this list about a week ago hoping to gleen
some information on aeroelectrics and all I've seen is information on
internet download problems. Adobe, .pdf, .eps, etc.
Is there ever any information on here that may help me in wiring my panel or
could someone point me to a list, site, or other info. which might be of
help. I'm not being abrasive here, I just think I may be on the wrong list.
Thanks for your help.
Chris Adkins
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul A. Franz, P.E. <paul(at)eucleides.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Batting 1000 . . .
>
> At 08:52 AM 5/16/2001Paul Messinger sez:
> >Good work BUT we (or at least I) still think there is a different problem
> >lurking in "your" web server.
> >
> >How does ANY software know or care about the file type in a simple file
> >download?
>
> Using http the server delivers the file according to the designated MIME
> type. Using ftp, there is no conversion specified. However MS applications
> rather than using MIME types will treat the file according to its idea of
> what the file extension is.
>
> > I suggest it does not matter as its just data until an application
> >opens it. Remaking and reinstalling new files potentially masks the
> >fundamental issue in my opinion and the following is my analysis.
>
> There is no problem for anyone with a "save to disk" the problem comes
> using the version 4 plugin in IE only. Using version 4 of the reader after
> you have downloaded the file does not use the browser plugin.
>
> Try this test. If you have saved one of the troublesome .pdfs, then open
it
> up with IE, locally. You have to open it up using the file menu. You'll
> then see the same problem you did downloading.
>
> It is not the server, it is a combination of the Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
> software running as a plugin in IE. The plugin code is different that then
> direct application. There is no problem with the plugin in Netscape
either.
>
> You can solve your problem by simply upgrading Acrobat to the newest
> version and don't do any analyzing at all.
>
>
> Paul Franz
>
> PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
> (425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
> (801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
> <http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Van Artsdalen, Scott" <svanarts(at)unionsafe.com> |
| Subject: | Batting 1000 . . . |
You're not being abrasive, just straightforward. If you haven't already,
I'd advise you to take a look at www.aeroelectric.com. The links at the
bottom of the page have the best info.
Just ignore the petty flame wars that break out periodically on these lists.
--
Scott VanArtsdalen, MCSE, CCNA
Network Administrator
Union Safe Deposit Bank
209-946-5116
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Adkins [mailto:ccadkins(at)dragg.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 1:33 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batting 1000 . . .
Hello all,
I am in the process of re-fitting a Q2 which had flown
around 150 hours.
Entirely new panel/radios and complete firewall forward.
My question is this: I joined this list about a week ago
hoping to gleen
some information on aeroelectrics and all I've seen is
information on
internet download problems. Adobe, .pdf, .eps, etc.
Is there ever any information on here that may help me in
wiring my panel or
could someone point me to a list, site, or other info. which
might be of
help. I'm not being abrasive here, I just think I may be on
the wrong list.
Thanks for your help.
Chris Adkins
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul A. Franz, P.E. <paul(at)eucleides.com>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Batting 1000 . . .
P.E."
>
> At 08:52 AM 5/16/2001Paul Messinger sez:
> >Good work BUT we (or at least I) still think there is a
different problem
> >lurking in "your" web server.
> >
> >How does ANY software know or care about the file type in
a simple file
> >download?
>
> Using http the server delivers the file according to the
designated MIME
> type. Using ftp, there is no conversion specified. However
MS applications
> rather than using MIME types will treat the file according
to its idea of
> what the file extension is.
>
> > I suggest it does not matter as its just data until an
application
> >opens it. Remaking and reinstalling new files potentially
masks the
> >fundamental issue in my opinion and the following is my
analysis.
>
> There is no problem for anyone with a "save to disk" the
problem comes
> using the version 4 plugin in IE only. Using version 4 of
the reader after
> you have downloaded the file does not use the browser
plugin.
>
> Try this test. If you have saved one of the troublesome
.pdfs, then open
it
> up with IE, locally. You have to open it up using the file
menu. You'll
> then see the same problem you did downloading.
>
> It is not the server, it is a combination of the Adobe
Acrobat Reader 4.0
> software running as a plugin in IE. The plugin code is
different that then
> direct application. There is no problem with the plugin in
Netscape
either.
>
> You can solve your problem by simply upgrading Acrobat to
the newest
> version and don't do any analyzing at all.
>
>
> Paul Franz
>
> PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
> (425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
> (801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
> <http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
>
>
>
through
http://www.matronics.com/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ... some information on aeroelectrics and ... |
At 01:32 PM 5/16/2001Chris Adkins sez:
>My question is this: I joined this list about a week ago hoping to gleen
>some information on aeroelectrics and.....
I think this is an interesting starting point:
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html>
Then you might want to look at Bob's bibliography. Pretty impressive.
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html>
You should know that Bob publishes a very useful Book which is regularly
updated called "The AeroElectric Connection".
It is a "how-to compendium". That is really my best resource.
Next, Bob himself, answers questions everyday in this forum.
Good luck with your panel, Chris.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(801)749-8480 fax | (425)641-1773 fax
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Batting 1000 . . . |
-----snip-----------
>My question is this: I joined this list about a week ago hoping to gleen
>some information on aeroelectrics and all I've seen is information on
>internet download problems. Adobe, .pdf, .eps, etc.
>
>Is there ever any information on here that may help me in wiring my panel or
>could someone point me to a list, site, or other info. which might be of
>help. I'm not being abrasive here, I just think I may be on the wrong list.
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Chris Adkins
Hi Chris -
Hang in there - you've definitely found the best list available for
all your aeroelectrics.
The Adobe, pdf, etc. thread seems to have run its course and we're
now better off for it.
All the best -
Bill
RANS S-7 in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Batting 1000 . . . |
Chris,
You are on the right list. You just so happen to join when this topic is
all consuming. Aside from what has already been suggested, try the
following.
1) Ask a question related to your project to the group
2) Go to http://www.matronics.com/search choose this list and search the
archives for whatever keyword describes your area of interest. If you don't
find it there, choose the RV-list and search that. It has been in existence
for about 10 years whereas this list is just months old.
Ross
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | ectric-List:list info |
Its an outstanding list that took a side track lately. There have been more
posts off subject in the last week than in the last year combined.
I suggest you go to Bob's web site for lots of excellent info. If you do not
have his data book GET IT!!! I would also go for the $10 CD full of more
stuff.
The above manual and CD are the first library actuation and a "must have"
for anyone wanting to safely wire an aircraft using modern techniques. The
FAA pubs are OK but based in the most part in old and ancient approaches as
well as not all that well written.
There are lots of excellent articles and downloadable diagrams etc.
After you review Bob's web site feel free to ask any questions as there is
lots of reiendly help here.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
Adkins
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batting 1000 . . .
Hello all,
I am in the process of re-fitting a Q2 which had flown around 150 hours.
Entirely new panel/radios and complete firewall forward.
My question is this: I joined this list about a week ago hoping to gleen
some information on aeroelectrics and all I've seen is information on
internet download problems. Adobe, .pdf, .eps, etc.
Is there ever any information on here that may help me in wiring my panel or
could someone point me to a list, site, or other info. which might be of
help. I'm not being abrasive here, I just think I may be on the wrong list.
Thanks for your help.
Chris Adkins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z7-ebus.pdf file made available |
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >>Thanks so much for that Z-7 ebus file which relates to
> >>the Rotax engines. Could I impose and ask for that
> >>file in AutoCad
> >
> >... make that .DXF so anyone with a non-AutoCAD CAD application can
> >also benefit from it, please! I suggest that Bob might standardize on
> >.DXF for drawings available for download.
>
> I've considered this. The numbers of files I need to generate
> and maintain is already pretty big and growing. Given that
> you can get a very capable drafting program that will work the
> .dwg files for free, I'm reluctant to add to my workload.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.cadopia.com/
Bob - thanks for the suggestion. It appears that cadopia only offers
a windoze application, nothing for the mac - so it's no use to me as
my mac is too old & slow to run softwindows.
I didn't mean to _increase_ your workload. Given that you create a
separate file for online-accessible documents anyway, I was just
suggesting that you upload one copy of each file - as .DXF for things
that people might find it useful to modify or edit such as wiring
diagrams - and as with .PDF for things like spec sheets etc which
by-and-large don't need expect to get edited at the user end.
Posting drawings as .DWG means that you are cutting out part of your
potential audience; there are mac drivers among us homebuilders too;
I for one do not want to upgrade to a new mac that will run
softwindows if it means less aeroplane money!
However, it's your ball, so you get to make the rules and I accept
that your decision is final.
Thanks for all your fine work. I'm sorry to have added to the noise
level on this forum - lets get back to the electrickery stuff now!
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
| e-mail: europa-club(at)rowil.clara.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Post SLC, UT seminar questions for Bob.... |
Bob:
I have a few additional questions after looking things
over this evening. I hope they aren't a bother.
1.) If I go with almost all portable equipment (ie.
GPS, handheld radio, intercom) would you suggest I
fuse each circuit or can all these items be run off
the same circuit?
2.) Since I will be flying the homebuilt RANS S-12
airplane in and around Class B airspace, I need a
transponder. Because of the lack of panel space, the
MicroAir is a nice looking option. You mentioned in
the seminar that you liked this piece of equipment but
if they incorporate the encoder in future releases, do
you think I should wait?
3.) What are your feelings on a portable radio vs. a
panel mount? I've seen the MicroAir's listed for as
inexpensive as $600 but I'm leery of the on-board
intercom. What are you feelings on it? I already
have a Yaesu Pilot handheld so I could spend $200 on a
DRE 201 portable or spend an extra $375 on the
MicroAir and have a matching radio and
transponder.......... (It would sure make for a
cleaner cockpit!) But this would limit my option for
music though.....
4.) Is there an easy way to tie a panel mount radio to
a portable intercom? (Something like the MicroAir
with the DRE 201?) I am also considering the DRE 244e
panel mount intercom.
Thanks.
-Kevin-
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Post SLC, UT seminar questions for Bob.... |
>
>Bob:
>
>I have a few additional questions after looking things
>over this evening. I hope they aren't a bother.
Nosir . . . that's what we're here for . . .
>1.) If I go with almost all portable equipment (ie.
>GPS, handheld radio, intercom) would you suggest I
>fuse each circuit or can all these items be run off
>the same circuit?
I'd give each item its own feed from a fuseblock
bus . . just like the panel mounted goodies.
>2.) Since I will be flying the homebuilt RANS S-12
>airplane in and around Class B airspace, I need a
>transponder. Because of the lack of panel space, the
>MicroAir is a nice looking option. You mentioned in
>the seminar that you liked this piece of equipment but
>if they incorporate the encoder in future releases, do
>you think I should wait?
The built in feature won't happen soon. I'll got
some transponders on backorder with my distributor.
I'll announce them on the Aeroelectric-list first
and make a good deal for a companion encoder too.
>3.) What are your feelings on a portable radio vs. a
>panel mount? I've seen the MicroAir's listed for as
>inexpensive as $600 but I'm leery of the on-board
>intercom. What are you feelings on it? I already
>have a Yaesu Pilot handheld so I could spend $200 on a
>DRE 201 portable or spend an extra $375 on the
>MicroAir and have a matching radio and
>transponder.......... (It would sure make for a
>cleaner cockpit!) But this would limit my option for
>music though.....
Why? The intercom works just fine . . . it's simply
a press-to-talk style as opposed to the adjustable
"vox" style. Frankly, once your passenger gets used
to it (takes about 10 minutes) the ptt is MUCH
more pleasant in terms of audio quality and is
never distracting you with random bursts of noise
or chopped speech . . . I like it.
You can use your handheld for awhile and see how
it works out. Put a hole in the panel for the Microair
transceiver and cover it with a blank plate. It will
be easy to add later if you decide the hand held
is too unhandy . . . A lot of my builders use hand-helds
in combination with external antennas and finding it
most satisfactory and excellent value for the dollars
spent.
>4.) Is there an easy way to tie a panel mount radio to
>a portable intercom? (Something like the MicroAir
>with the DRE 201?) I am also considering the DRE 244e
>panel mount intercom.
Sure . . . the electronic circuitry for a portable
intercom is identical to the panel mount . . . only
the enclosure and power supply is different.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 05/18/01 |
> >3.) What are your feelings on a portable radio vs.
> a
> >panel mount? I've seen the MicroAir's listed for
> as
> >inexpensive as $600 but I'm leery of the on-board
> >intercom. What are you feelings on it? I already
> >have a Yaesu Pilot handheld so I could spend $200
> on a
> >DRE 201 portable or spend an extra $375 on the
> >MicroAir and have a matching radio and
> >transponder.......... (It would sure make for a
> >cleaner cockpit!) But this would limit my option
> for
> >music though.....
>
> Why? The intercom works just fine . . . it's
> simply
> a press-to-talk style as opposed to the
> adjustable
> "vox" style. Frankly, once your passenger gets
> used
> to it (takes about 10 minutes) the ptt is MUCH
> more pleasant in terms of audio quality and is
> never distracting you with random bursts of noise
> or chopped speech . . . I like it.
This is something I would never had considered.....
So I would need TWO PTT switches on my sticks then?
Or have you rigged a SPDT switch to control the
intercom and broadcasting? What about music? Can you
rig music with the on-board intercom in the MicroAir?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - |
05/18/01
>
>This is something I would never had considered.....
>So I would need TWO PTT switches on my sticks then?
>Or have you rigged a SPDT switch to control the
>intercom and broadcasting? What about music? Can you
>rig music with the on-board intercom in the MicroAir?
Hi all -
This is a good system - PTT for transmit and intercom. The navy jets
I worked on at NAS Alameda had this system and used a special 3
position switch that was spring-loaded to center. Forward was
transmit, aft was intercom. Switches were mounted on both the sticks
and the throttles. The action is sliding, not a toggle-type, but the
S700-2-7 would work.
Once you get used to it you get no more coughing, snorting, laughing,
cursing, wind noise etc. in the headsets.
And when flying with the doors off/opened, it's "the ooonly way to fly"!
Bill
RANS S-7 Courier
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 05/18/01 |
> Hi all -
> This is a good system - PTT for transmit and
> intercom. The navy jets
> I worked on at NAS Alameda had this system and used
> a special 3
> position switch that was spring-loaded to center.
> Forward was
> transmit, aft was intercom. Switches were mounted on
> both the sticks
> and the throttles. The action is sliding, not a
> toggle-type, but the
> S700-2-7 would work.
> Once you get used to it you get no more coughing,
> snorting, laughing,
> cursing, wind noise etc. in the headsets.
> And when flying with the doors off/opened, it's "the
> ooonly way to fly"!
> Bill
> RANS S-7 Courier
THANKS BILL! With your and Bob's recommendation, it
does sound like a distinct possibility for me.
Without seeing one, I like the size and features of
this radio. I want to get their new transponder so
the pair would look good together on my RANS S-12S
panel.
However, I have two concerns.....
1.) Sliding the switch in the wrong direction and
everyone on the frequency gets to know your business.
;-) I'm sure this would be big problem with new
riders.....
2.) The inability to incorporate music into the
flight.
Am I wrong about the music? Is there an easy way to
bring it into the system?
Thanks everyone!
-Kevin-
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM" <Kearns(at)pol.net> |
Does someone have a description of how aviation wire is coded? I am not
talking about the aircraft manufacturer codes given for lighting,
chanring, etc. Instead, I am looking for the green coded information on
white wire imprinted by the manufacturer.
I had seen this question previously on the list, and someone was kind
enough to offer to identify the wire if a piece was sent in. However,
on the 'give a fish, teach to fish' basis, knowing the coding process
would be most valuable.
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gene Kearns <ewkearns(at)triad.rr.com> |
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---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gene Kearns <ewkearns(at)triad.rr.com> |
Joseph,
I think what your are asking about is listed in AC43.13, if that
is the spec. of the wire....
Gene
At 10:47 AM 5/20/01, you wrote:
>
>
>Does someone have a description of how aviation wire is coded? I am not
>talking about the aircraft manufacturer codes given for lighting,
>chanring, etc. Instead, I am looking for the green coded information on
>white wire imprinted by the manufacturer.
>
>I had seen this question previously on the list, and someone was kind
>enough to offer to identify the wire if a piece was sent in. However,
>on the 'give a fish, teach to fish' basis, knowing the coding process
>would be most valuable.
>
>Thanks
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Does someone have a description of how aviation wire is coded? I am not
>talking about the aircraft manufacturer codes given for lighting,
>chanring, etc. Instead, I am looking for the green coded information on
>white wire imprinted by the manufacturer.
By-and-large the numbers stamped on high-dollar wire are
military specification numbers that will describe the makeup
and ratings of each variant. The selection is HUGE . . . only
uncle Sam's deeper pockets will accommodate such expensive
and selective tastes.
The materials of choice for us po' folks is Mil-W-22759 which
will come with a LOT of slash numbers /16 is the most common
in commercial airframe fabrication. This is tefzel rated to
150C operating and is 600V rated for thickness. There are
some commercial clones and or competitive products, the most
notable of which will be Raychem's Spec 55 wire products.
Without access to a bookshelf loaded with spec sheets, you'll
not find it easy to identify the nature of odd spools of wire
found around the country's industrial surplus outlets. Sufice
it to say that if it comes from some aircraft manufacturer's
overstock or leftovers, chances are it's okay for use in your
airplane. I have access to an on-line database (that costs
several tens of kilobux per month) to look up and print out
information from the universe of specs . . . if anyone has
a burning curiosity about a spec on wire or any other
product, e-mail me the numbers and I'll see what I can find.
You can find some data on the net. For example, here's a
NASA site that talks about some wire features.
http://nepp.nasa.gov/npsl/Wire/insulation_guide.htm
It's interesting to note that the ONLY spec the published
with any degree of completeness is for 22759:
http://nepp.nasa.gov/npsl/Wire/22759/22759.htm
Even this data dump is but a tip of the iceberg overview
of what this one style of wire is all about.
Unless you have a lot of spare time on your hands or really
enjoy solving puzzles, the quest for illumination on
the bizzions of wire types is probably not very productive
in terms of getting your project flying. If you bought all
the wire for your project at avionics shop retail, you
probably wouldn't spend $100 on wire. Aircraft Spruce,
B&C and others will have reasonably priced wire off
the shelf that will move your project forward at
best rate.
>I had seen this question previously on the list, and someone was kind
>enough to offer to identify the wire if a piece was sent in. However,
>on the 'give a fish, teach to fish' basis, knowing the coding process
>would be most valuable.
Even us guys who do this for a living try to avoid knowing
everything there is to know about wire . . . 99% of it
has no particular usefulness in the process of getting the
job done right.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Joseph,
>
> I think what your are asking about is listed in AC43.13, if that
>is the spec. of the wire....
>
>Gene
I had a chance to contribute to EAA's critical review of
AC43.13 a few years back. One of my strongest objections
to the electrical section was inclusion of the fat wire
table that spoke of "wire types suitable for use in
airplanes."
I suggested to the authors that while the list WAS
impressive, it was not all inclusive. If it was considered
a good thing to produce a SHORT list of hard to find wire,
why not produce the WHOLE list of hard to find wire.
I allowed as how 99% of the wire used in commercial and
GA aircraft fleet was 22759/16 and that if they were trying
to really HELP some poor schmuck that was licensed to turn
wrenches on airplanes, perhaps the whole topic could have
been dealt with by saying:
"Check the parts catalog for the
airplane you're working on . . . it's always allowed to
replace a piece of wire with the same stuff it was wired
with when it left the factory. Absent such information
(by the way, why are you working on an airplane for which
you do not possess the approved service documents?) you
can use very common 22759/16 for everything except the most
abusive environments on the airplane (like wrapped around
the exhaust pipes)."
The fact that all that APPROVED information was published
in a government document lends credence to the notion that
it is also USEFUL information . . . not so in real life.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gene Kearns <ewkearns(at)triad.rr.com> |
Pity the poor mechanic working on a Short Wing Piper...... a
certificated aircraft that never had a maintenance manual or other
published approved data (except TCDS)!
At 02:55 PM 5/20/01, you wrote:
>
>
> "Check the parts catalog for the
> airplane you're working on . . . it's always allowed to
> replace a piece of wire with the same stuff it was wired
> with when it left the factory. Absent such information
> (by the way, why are you working on an airplane for which
> you do not possess the approved service documents?) you
> can use very common 22759/16 for everything except the most
> abusive environments on the airplane (like wrapped around
> the exhaust pipes)."
>
> The fact that all that APPROVED information was published
> in a government document lends credence to the notion that
> it is also USEFUL information . . . not so in real life.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>Bob
>In the B&C portion of the catalog there is listed an assortment of
>wire. Is this all Tefzel wire?
>
>Jim
Tefzel or some close cousin . . . ALL are most suitable
for use on airplanes.
BTW Jim, the piece of wire you sent me to look at has
a VERY thin tefzel-like outer jacket over an inner
layer of kynar . . . Not very abrasion or snag resistant.
My high-dollar wire strippers couldn't strip it without
damaging the outer jacket. Don't think I'd use this
in my airplane.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Many certified planes don't have a maintenance manual. Aeronca, Bellanca
14-13 are just a couple others. CAA didn't require even a pilot's manual
until the 50s.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Kearns" <ewkearns(at)triad.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire Coding
Pity the poor mechanic working on a Short Wing Piper...... a
certificated aircraft that never had a maintenance manual or other
published approved data (except TCDS)!
At 02:55 PM 5/20/01, you wrote:
>
>
> "Check the parts catalog for the
> airplane you're working on . . . it's always allowed to
> replace a piece of wire with the same stuff it was wired
> with when it left the factory. Absent such information
> (by the way, why are you working on an airplane for which
> you do not possess the approved service documents?) you
> can use very common 22759/16 for everything except the most
> abusive environments on the airplane (like wrapped around
> the exhaust pipes)."
>
> The fact that all that APPROVED information was published
> in a government document lends credence to the notion that
> it is also USEFUL information . . . not so in real life.
________________________________________________________________________________
Bob:
Can you use a DPST switch to power the SD8 and essential buss together?
Len Leggette RV-8A
N901LL (res)
Plumbing & Wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Keepwarm circuit for lamps....... |
Has anyone found an good source for 12vdc to 2vdc
step-down transformers for Bob's keepwarm circuits? I
am considering some JC Whitney 55w driving and fog
lights for my landing and taxi lights, respectively,
on my RANS S-12S. Longer bulb life would be
nice.....I just worry about the built-in alternator of
the Rotax 912S. Will it be able to keep up with this
additional circuit?
My list of wants already include:
1.) MicroAir radio
2.) MicroAir Transponder
3.) Lowrance Airmap 100 GPS
4.) Yaesu Pilot Handheld for back-up
5.) Aeroflash Strobes and nav lights
6.) Engine Information System (EIS)
7.) Electronic trim system
8.) JC Whitney 1.5A heater with blower
Can I afford all these goodies AND a keepwarm system
with the onboard alternator?
Thanks.
-Kevin-
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stereo Audio w/Microair and others . . . |
>
>
>However, I have two concerns.....
>
>1.) Sliding the switch in the wrong direction and
>everyone on the frequency gets to know your business.
>;-) I'm sure this would be big problem with new
>riders.....
The last aircraft I set up with this radio, I put the
PTT switch for radio on top and the intercom switch
down on the side. Another option is to not install
a radio transmit button on the right hand stick.
A third option is to put a switch in series with
the r.h. stick radio PTT to disable it when
you have new riders.
>2.) The inability to incorporate music into the flight.
Am I wrong about the music? Is there an easy way to
bring it into the system?
See some new drawings I just posted at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v1.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v2.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v3.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v4.pdf
These four drawings show how to do stereo with the
Microair (or any other transceiver). You need an
isolation amplifier (shown on sheet 4) that drives
stereo headsets with Right/Left audio from the music
source and mixes aviation audio inputs together for
output to both ears. The schematic shown can be built
from Digikey parts. It can be quite compact . . .
I'd estimate 2 x 3 x 1 inch max.
BTW . . . these .pdf files are compiled using the
latest Acrobat v5.0. I've tried downloading these
with all combinations of browser/computer and
using the latest Acrobat Reader. The results were
gratifyingly trouble free.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Bob:
>
>Can you use a DPST switch to power the SD8 and essential buss together?
I don't think I'd do that. You may want to have the
SD-8 OFF when the E-bus alternate feed is ON. You may
also want to be able to turn the SD-8 ON without also
closing the alternate feed switch.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Many certified planes don't have a maintenance manual. Aeronca, Bellanca
>14-13 are just a couple others. CAA didn't require even a pilot's manual
>until the 50s.
Then Mil-W-22759/16 is THE wire of choice . . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronald A. Cox" <racox(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/20/01 |
Bob:
Definitely an improvement on my end. I can download each without a problem
using ver. 4.0 plug-in with Netscape, which was often a problem before. It
shows a couple of errors (one about a missing "Color Space CS6, possibly
using features not available with the older reader).
But when I tell it to ignore/suppress them, it works fine and the file is
totally readable.
Ron Cox
> BTW . . . these .pdf files are compiled using the
> latest Acrobat v5.0. I've tried downloading these
> with all combinations of browser/computer and
> using the latest Acrobat Reader. The results were
> gratifyingly trouble free.
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keepwarm circuit for lamps....... |
>
>Has anyone found an good source for 12vdc to 2vdc
>step-down transformers for Bob's keepwarm circuits? I
>am considering some JC Whitney 55w driving and fog
>lights for my landing and taxi lights, respectively,
>on my RANS S-12S. Longer bulb life would be
>nice.....I just worry about the built-in alternator of
>the Rotax 912S. Will it be able to keep up with this
>additional circuit?
There are some out there but still pretty pricey . .
about $60 for a 3.3v 2A device that runs from 9-18
volts input. You can buy a LOT of bulbs for $60.
Additional load on the system would be small, perhaps
0.2A or so. I think I'd wait on this. The converters
are becoming more common and volumes are going up.
I expect prices to come down and you can add this
feature very easily at some later time.
>My list of wants already include:
>
>1.) MicroAir radio 0.1A
>2.) MicroAir Transponder 1.0A
>3.) Lowrance Airmap 100 GPS 0.1A
>4.) Yaesu Pilot Handheld for back-up 0.1A
>5.) Aeroflash Strobes and nav lights ~8A
>6.) Engine Information System (EIS) 0.3A
>7.) Electronic trim system n/s
>8.) JC Whitney 1.5A heater with blower What's this for?
_________________________________
Total so far is under 10A
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Isolation amplifier |
>
> See some new drawings I just posted at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v1.pdf
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v2.pdf
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v3.pdf
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v4.pdf
>
> These four drawings show how to do stereo with the
> Microair (or any other transceiver). You need an
> isolation amplifier (shown on sheet 4) that drives
> stereo headsets with Right/Left audio from the music
> source and mixes aviation audio inputs together for
> output to both ears. The schematic shown can be built
> from Digikey parts. It can be quite compact . . .
> I'd estimate 2 x 3 x 1 inch max.
>
Bob,
Is this amplifier (p. 2.4) expandable in parallel using the same value
components for other inputs such as engine monitors, fuel monitors, MB
lights etc. or would all of the component values have to be adjusted?
Does each warning tone source need its own set of resitor/capacitors?
Could this be used (with some of the sources switched) as a poor man's audio
panel driving an intercom other than that included in a Microair?
Thanks,
Stan Blanton
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roberto Giusti <roby(at)mail.com> |
| Subject: | Thermocouple connectors |
Bob,
I am looking for a tidy way to deal with going through the firewall with
the CHT and EGT sensors.
Whilst searching on the net I came across this site:
http://www.iprocessmart.com/t_c_connectors.htm
Of particular interest are the SMTC Sub-Miniature D-Sub Pins.
They stock them in all common thermocouple materials.
It would be possible with these to create a D-Sub connector that doesn't
introduce parasitic junctions.
They are not very expensive, but they do sell only in lots of 100, so to
deal with type J and K thermocouples one would have to buy 400 pins.
Any comments on these pins?
If you think they are useful, could they be a useful addition (in smaller
quantities) to the B&C Catalogue?
Regards,
Roberto Giusti
roby(at)mail.com
RV8 Empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keepwarm circuit for lamps....... |
>> 8.) JC Whitney 1.5A heater with blower
> What's this for?
This is to keep the full enclosure warm in winter.
It's a heater in series with the radiator (7"x7"x7").
The fan has two-speeds.
Are there better forms of heat? I've heard of muffler
wraps that passes air over it and redirects the air
into the cockpit. This scares me!
Thanks.
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 05/21/01 |
I guess I've got to ask for clarification here. I assume the idea is to
keep the bulb warm to reduce the inrush current on turn-on. A 50 watt
landing light probably has a cold resistance of a lot less than 1 ohm and a
"warm" resistance of maybe 1 ohm. 2 volts applied gives 2 amps of current -
per bulb. That sounds excessive, but to put negligible current into the
bulb would provide negligible heating. What's the scoop?
original message:
There are some out there but still pretty pricey . .
about $60 for a 3.3v 2A device that runs from 9-18
volts input. You can buy a LOT of bulbs for $60.
Additional load on the system would be small, perhaps
0.2A or so. I think I'd wait on this. The converters
are becoming more common and volumes are going up.
I expect prices to come down and you can add this
feature very easily at some later time.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilsonwcr(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re:Re: Keepwarm circuit for lamps.. |
In a message "Ronald A. Cox" writes:
<< >Has anyone found an good source for 12vdc to 2vdc
>step-down transformers for Bob's keepwarm circuits? I
>am considering some JC Whitney 55w driving and fog
>lights for my landing and taxi lights, respectively,
>on my RANS S-12S. Longer bulb life would be
>nice.....I just worry about the built-in alternator of
>the Rotax 912S. Will it be able to keep up with this
>additional circuit?
Bob replied:
There are some out there but still pretty pricey . .
about $60 for a 3.3v 2A device that runs from 9-18
volts input. You can buy a LOT of bulbs for $60.
Additional load on the system would be small, perhaps
0.2A or so. I think I'd wait on this. The converters
are becoming more common and volumes are going up.
I expect prices to come down and you can add this
feature very easily at some later time. >>
========
Bob, I think the new cars just have a resistor so the headlights dont
shine so bright during the day. Is this concept workable with our limited
amps?
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keepwarm system revisited . . . |
>
>I guess I've got to ask for clarification here. I assume the idea is to
>keep the bulb warm to reduce the inrush current on turn-on. A 50 watt
>landing light probably has a cold resistance of a lot less than 1 ohm and a
>"warm" resistance of maybe 1 ohm. 2 volts applied gives 2 amps of current -
>per bulb. That sounds excessive, but to put negligible current into the
>bulb would provide negligible heating. What's the scoop?
Just measured a 55W halogen lamp at .25 ohms room temp.
1.0 volts applied produces a dull read glow at 0.8 amps
for a "warm" resistance of 1.25 ohms . . . about a 5x
increase. DC to DC converters will be pretty readily
available in the 1.8 volt range . . . drop that through
the isolation diode will give you about 1.1 to 1.2 volts
applied to lamp. A 2A power supply could probably
handle a landing and taxi light. Adding NAV lights
would probably boost it to something on the order of
3A . . . the power supply should be capable of running
constant current so that it doesn't "stall" when hit
with the cold filaments.
While "keep warm" is technically attractive, it's
still pretty expensive practically. The major
thrust of the keep warm system was driven by the
high cost of "aircraft" lamps and relatively low
life. Automotive halogens should last longer and
of course the bulbs are much cheaper. If you have
both landing and taxi lamps, (or hook up high and
low beam filaments of a dual lamp) then you have
a standby illuminator for landing.
In retrospect, I think I'd try to maximize use of
low cost automotive parts and have a backup as opposed
to spending a lot of dollars (and increasing system
complexity) with a keepwarm system to increase the
life of a bulb that is eventually going to burn out
anyhow.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electric heat |
>
>>> 8.) JC Whitney 1.5A heater with blower
>> What's this for?
>
>This is to keep the full enclosure warm in winter.
>It's a heater in series with the radiator (7"x7"x7").
>The fan has two-speeds.
>
>Are there better forms of heat? I've heard of muffler
>wraps that passes air over it and redirects the air
>into the cockpit. This scares me!
A heater that runs on 1.5 A at 14 volts is about
21 watts of heat . . . a SMALL hair dryer is 900
watts. To get really practical electric heat in
an airplane takes something on the order of 1500
watts. I have some north country long-ez flyers
that went to 60A, 28V systems to get enough energy
from the alternator for electric heat . . . and
it still isn't enough.
Heater muffs have been successful heat sources
on over 100,000 light aircraft for 75 years.
It's a high maintenance item . . . you gotta
check them for leaks every year . . . properly
fabricated and maintained, they are VERY reliable
and great way to recover a ton of BTUs that would
otherwise get dumped outside while your bunnies
are freezing inside.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Isolation amplifier |
>
>
>
>>
>> See some new drawings I just posted at:
>>
>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v1.pdf
>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v2.pdf
>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v3.pdf
>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v4.pdf
>>
>> These four drawings show how to do stereo with the
>> Microair (or any other transceiver).
>Is this amplifier (p. 2.4) expandable in parallel using the same value
>components for other inputs such as engine monitors, fuel monitors, MB
>lights etc. or would all of the component values have to be adjusted?
You can add additional inputs to as many as you need.
The component values assume that all audio sources are
in the same ballpark for output voltage. If you have
a lot of different sources, you might want to put
a screwdriver adjustment gain control in the input circuit
of each source.
>Does each warning tone source need its own set of resitor/capacitors?
Yes . . .
>Could this be used (with some of the sources switched) as a poor man's audio
>panel driving an intercom other than that included in a Microair?
You can use this basic amplifier configuration with any combination
of radios/music sources/intercom systems.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: electric heat |
I was also concerned about the possible CO leaking into the cabin
from an exhaust leak in the heat muff. Took a look at the oil cooler,
and made a deflector box on the back side, which now heats the
cabin....and I mean heats the cabin.
Cheers,
Warren.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
I'm new on this list, and have been intimidated by electronic
issues. The primary reason is the schematics, which are a foreign
language to me. Question: Does Bob's book take a rank newbie like me
by the hand, thru this new language to a point where I could actually
read and understand a schematic drawing? If not, can you recommend a
supplemental reading source that would get me started?
Cheers,
Warren.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keepwarm system revisited . . . |
> >
> >I guess I've got to ask for clarification here. I assume the idea is to
> >keep the bulb warm to reduce the inrush current on turn-on. A 50 watt
*** An old fellow at the pilot shop told me a trick to make bulbs last
longer: install them so the filament is vertical instead of horizontal.
That way, the there's less stress on it. Naturally, the standard
positioning in certificated airplanes is _horizontal_. :(
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Yes!!
RHDudley
-6A fuselage
Warren D. Shoun wrote:
>
>
> I'm new on this list, and have been intimidated by electronic
> issues. The primary reason is the schematics, which are a foreign
> language to me. Question: Does Bob's book take a rank newbie like me
> by the hand, thru this new language to a point where I could actually
> read and understand a schematic drawing? If not, can you recommend a
> supplemental reading source that would get me started?
> Cheers,
> Warren.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keepwarm system revisited . . . |
>
>> >
>> >I guess I've got to ask for clarification here. I assume the idea is to
>> >keep the bulb warm to reduce the inrush current on turn-on. A 50 watt
>
>*** An old fellow at the pilot shop told me a trick to make bulbs last
>longer: install them so the filament is vertical instead of horizontal.
>That way, the there's less stress on it. Naturally, the standard
>positioning in certificated airplanes is _horizontal_. :(
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
I've heard this from several sources. I'm told that Beech
did some studies on this in the Bonanza a few years back
and found little if any documentable difference in lamp
life. . . . I guess it was so UN-documentable that nobody
thought to write it down! Lamp life is STILL an issue on
these airplanes. I told the division manager for piston
airplanes that I'd like to do some work in this area . . .
I asked if I could get a work order to charge the time
to. He readily agreed . . . problem is that I have no
more time to put into it right now!
In the mean time, I'll suggest that automotive halogens
NOT mounted in immediate vicinity of engine will offer
both longest life and lowest cost.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
Warren -
You wrote:
---------snip-------------
> Question: Does Bob's book take a rank newbie like me
>by the hand, thru this new language to a point where I could actually
>read and understand a schematic drawing?
Yes indeed. His book is the best primer on electrics I've seen.
> If not, can you recommend a
>supplemental reading source that would get me started?
>Cheers,
>Warren.
No supplemental reading is required. If necessary use this
Aeroelectric-list for clarification.
All the best -
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Warren D. Shoun" <wbnb(at)earthlink.net> |
Guys,
Thanks for the encouragement that I can do this with Bob's book and
this list. Have a Sonerai IIL going thru a rebuild and feel the need to
pretty much strip out the old electrical system and replace it.
Cheers,
Warren
William Mills wrote:
> Yes indeed. His book is the best primer on electrics I've seen.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mitchf(at)netscape.com (Mitchell Faatz) |
I'll play devil's advocate here. I found Bob's book to be helpful, but
certainly not to the degree that I had hoped. It goes into too much
detail in the wrong areas (detailed theory of battery construction,
magnetic fields, etc.) that just don't help too much in the grand scheme
of things. These things don't help too much when it comes down to "how
do I wire my plane". I've got *some* electronics background (amateur
radio, etc), and would have much rather seen more "applicable"
information in a Tony Bingelis fashion. Such as the order to do things:
run a grounding strap from your engine to your firewall ground block (2
or 4 AWG), run a cable from this firewall ground block to your battery
NEG post (4 AWG), don't forget to do XXX, ...
The diagrams are the greatest resource and worth the price of admission.
This newsgroup will probably make it worthwhile too! I also attended
one of Bob's seminars, which was worthwhile.
- Mitch Faatz
RV-6A San Mateo, CA Finish Kit
Warren D. Shoun wrote:
>
>Guys,
> Thanks for the encouragement that I can do this with Bob's book and
>this list. Have a Sonerai IIL going thru a rebuild and feel the need to
>pretty much strip out the old electrical system and replace it.
>Cheers,
>Warren
>
>William Mills wrote:
>
>>Yes indeed. His book is the best primer on electrics I've seen.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
>
> I'm new on this list, and have been intimidated by electronic
> issues. The primary reason is the schematics, which are a foreign
> language to me. Question: Does Bob's book take a rank newbie like me
> by the hand, thru this new language to a point where I could actually
> read and understand a schematic drawing? If not, can you recommend a
> supplemental reading source that would get me started?
*** It wouldn't hurt to read the first few chapters of the "Radio Amateur's
Handbook". It's published by the ARRL ( sort of like AOPA, only for radio
hams ). The book talks about electronics from a pretty basic level. It's
put out every year - doesn't matter which year you get. Should be at your
local library. There's ten or eleven of'em on Ebay right now.
On a somewhat more advanced level - but still starting "from the
beginning" is "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill. This book
started out as a class for scientists in other disciplines who wanted to "do
electronics". I can't recommend it too highly. The appendix on
"how not to draw schematics" alone is worth the price of admission.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
Mitch:
I know what you're saying. Yes, it goes into some
detail which may not interest everyone. I actually
enjoyed this detail, but then again, I WAS a E.E. in a
previous life. ;-)
I personally feel that Bob's book is worth at least
twice the cost. I'm not trying to blow smoke or
anything but how many books have people bought where
they get the technical support like this newslist?!
(I didn't even get it with my college textbooks and I
paid $25K a year for that education!)
-Kevin-
(Your help is greatly appreciated Bob. THANK YOU!)
> I'll play devil's advocate here. I found Bob's book
> to be helpful, but
> certainly not to the degree that I had hoped. It
> goes into too much
> detail in the wrong areas (detailed theory of
> battery construction,
> magnetic fields, etc.) that just don't help too much
> in the grand scheme
> of things. These things don't help too much when it
> comes down to "how
> do I wire my plane". I've got *some* electronics
> background (amateur
> radio, etc), and would have much rather seen more
> "applicable"
> information in a Tony Bingelis fashion. Such as the
> order to do things:
> run a grounding strap from your engine to your
> firewall ground block (2
> or 4 AWG), run a cable from this firewall ground
> block to your battery
> NEG post (4 AWG), don't forget to do XXX, ...
>
> The diagrams are the greatest resource and worth the
> price of admission.
> This newsgroup will probably make it worthwhile
> too! I also attended
> one of Bob's seminars, which was worthwhile.
>
> - Mitch Faatz
> RV-6A San Mateo, CA Finish Kit
>
> Warren D. Shoun wrote:
>
> Shoun"
> >
> >Guys,
> > Thanks for the encouragement that I can do this
> with Bob's book and
> >this list. Have a Sonerai IIL going thru a rebuild
> and feel the need to
> >pretty much strip out the old electrical system and
> replace it.
> >Cheers,
> >Warren
> >
> >William Mills wrote:
> >
> >>Yes indeed. His book is the best primer on
> electrics I've seen.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> and through
>
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
> Matronics!
>
>
>
>
>
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electric heat |
Actually Bob,the heater I was refering to is at the
following link:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/item.jhtml?ITEMID=14114
It's a passive heater with a 1.5A draw two-speed fan.
Sorry about the confusion.
-Kevin-
> A heater that runs on 1.5 A at 14 volts is about
> 21 watts of heat . . . a SMALL hair dryer is 900
> watts. To get really practical electric heat in
> an airplane takes something on the order of 1500
> watts.
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Kluijfhout, PE1RUI" <jessevli(at)zeelandnet.nl> |
Hello list,
As I only read the list, and my hobby is understanding
avionics systems, I dont know Bobs book.
Is it AeroElectric Connection youre talking about ?
Regards,
Jesse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electric heat |
Have you considered heated seats instead? I know that doesn't cover your
toes and fingers, but....
After tentative investigation, I think I will go the heated seat route, both
front and back, to supplement the std heat muff.
Larry Bowen
RV-8 wings
Email: Larry(at)BowenAero.com
Web: http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of K.M.
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 3:42 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: electric heat
>
>
> Actually Bob,the heater I was refering to is at the
> following link:
>
> http://www.jcwhitney.com/item.jhtml?ITEMID=14114
>
> It's a passive heater with a 1.5A draw two-speed fan.
>
> Sorry about the confusion.
>
> -Kevin-
>
>
> > A heater that runs on 1.5 A at 14 volts is about
> > 21 watts of heat . . . a SMALL hair dryer is 900
> > watts. To get really practical electric heat in
> > an airplane takes something on the order of 1500
> > watts.
>
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electric heat |
Larry:
Please explain......
and what is the current draw for these? I am building
a RANS S-12S and only have an 18 amp Alternator on the
April 30, 2001 - May 22, 2001
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ae