AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ai

September 15, 2001 - October 08, 2001



           
      
      
                  Charging system includes custom wound Compu-fire stator,
      rotor with permanently attached magnets, balanced to tighter specs than
      O.E. Machined puller holes, 20% stronger magnets than O.E., series style
      electronic voltage regulator. Foam inset packaged in a four color box.
      
                
      
                
                  1981-1999 Big Twin
      
                  $438.87    1981-1999 Big Twin
      
                  $230.45
                
                
                  S & S
      
                  $240.61    S & S
      
                  $449.08
                
                
                  Stator for HD and S & S
      
                  $67.04    Stator for HD and S & S
      
                  $146.06
                
                
                  Rotor for 1981 -1999 Big Twins, 32 amp and 40 amp
      
                  $99.95    Rotor for S & S 32 amp and 40 amp
      
                  $109.95
                
      
      
           
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
            ******* >>>>>>>This is from the website  Warren Shoun posted to
      the Aeroelectric list 9/14/01 7:33pm
            32 & 40 amp alternator.  I think this 40 amp item is the highest
      current capacity anyone has found so far.  The Briggs & Stratton
      industrial is 2nd at 35 amps (4 pounds), then Jabiru at 25 amps.  The
      Great Plains 20 amp for VW is 3rd./
      
            In my post yesterday after talking to Great Plains I should have
      remembered  these "greater than 20 amps" alternators that others had
      mentioned and shouldn't have quoted Steve's opinion that 20amps was the
      best available.
      
      
            David Carter
           
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2001
From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E."@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Failure to contact
nuckolls@aeroel.......... At 09:21 PM 9/13/2001Matt Dralle sez: > > >Word up is that Bob had some trouble with his website/ISP and is using a >different email address for the time being. Since I know how he feels (!) >I thought I'd pass on his temporary address. It is: > > nuckolls(at)kscable.com I host Bob's website and e-mail. His e-mail was being spooled at the secondary mx (mail exchange). The interruption in service was 34 hours on the web site. Longest outage we've ever had. Router problem with Qwest/Level3 and then we took the opportunity during the down time to make some wiring changes, move a couple servers and blow the dust out of the enclosures. One of our servers refused to restart which added to the stress. We have now replaced the drives and our backups are again current. So you should again use Bob's regular e-mail address - nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com. Sorry for the inconvenience. Upgrades are coming to provide encrypted access. ** L I N U X ** .~. Paul A. Franz, P.E. Engineering Software The Choice /V\ Blackdog Software Network Consulting and Sales of the GNU /( )\ <http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/> Custom Web Services Generation - (425) 641-8202, (425) 641-1773 FAX Internet FAX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R Colman" <ronincolman(at)home.com>
Subject: Printing Labels on Wire...
Date: Sep 15, 2001
Mark, Would your company be interested in making harnesses? R Matt, My company uses a device as you described. It uses a tiny laser to write on the wire as it is pulled through. It is not a very large device. I'm sorry I don't know the name ot mfg. Best Regards, Mark Julicher taylorcraft list Matt Dralle wrote: Dralle) > > Hello Listers, > > I've been pondering the impending electrical wiring of the 'ol RV-4 and > it occurred to me that at some point in my 10-year building process someone > showed me a nifty wire labeler that would allow you to put most any > gauge of wire in one side and pull it completely through. The labeler > would repeatedly print a string of text along the wire from one end to the > other. I have no idea now where I saw this labeler or what it was > called. Does anyone have any insight on this device? > > Thanks! > > Matt Dralle > RV-4 / #1763 / N442RV > > -- > > Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 > 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email > http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > Great minds discuss ideas, > Average minds discuss events, > Small minds discuss people... > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Private" <rhinorob(at)home.com>
Subject: Apollo SL40 Com
Date: Sep 15, 2001
New Apollo SL40 COM for sale US$1,200 OBO. For a detailed description http://www.upsat.com/sl40.shtml Contact Rob Cranston at 519-474-0819 or email rhinorob(at)home.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lehmansmtl" <lehmansmtl(at)netzero.net>
Subject: Temperarure Measurement using Thermisters
Date: Sep 15, 2001
It seems that all Westach temperature indicators for oil, air, fuel or coolant use the same characteristic NTC thermister: i.e. 3000 ohms @ 25C, resistance ratio R0/R50 about 8.61 (R at 0C is 9300 ohms and R at 50C is 1080 ohms). Many inexpensive bead type thermisters are available but, despite an extensive search, I've not found one that matches the characteristic above. Perhaps someone on the list can suggest can suggest a source. Thanks. Mike > From: "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouples > > > For thermocouples and information on how to use them check out > http://www.omega.com/ > > > Best regards, > > Rob Housman > Europa XS Tri-Gear > 90% complete, 90% to go > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Cole" <raycole(at)bellsouth.net> > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:43 AM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouples > > > > > > Does anyone have a good source for thermocouples and other temperature > > sensors? I've been inspired by Bob Nuckolls and Jim Weir to attempt my > > own temperature measurement system. It may not work but maybe I'll learn > > something in the process. > > > > Ray Cole NetZero Platinum Only $9.95 per month! Sign up in September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2001
From: Bob.Haan(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Wig-Wag circuit
> "John Anderson" > > >Listers, > >Anyone have a simple circuit for wig - wagging the landing lights? > >Thanks, John, We have designed and manufacture a WigWag Solid State Controller.See http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ The more important features and benefits are: 1. Safety:- The WIgWag makes your plane more noticeable. The flash rate was selected so that each bulb alternately goes to full bright. Full bright is important during day light in order to be seen at a distance. The WigWag can drive 100 watt bulbs. Also, while one bulb goes to full bright, the other bulb goes to full off . The result is that an observer sees one light which appears to jump from one wing tip to the other. This apparent motion is very attention getting. Furthermore, this apparent motion occurs even when head -on. 2. Easy to install:- Eight connections and your done or 2 more if you want to have indicators for burned out bulbs such as an LED. These connections are +12 V Input + 12 V second Input for redundancy Ground +12 V Output to Left Leading Edge LIght +12 V Output to RightLeading Edge LIght. Switch for left leading edge bulb on Switch for right leading edge bulb on Switch for WigWag on Left bulb burned out indicator i.e LED Right bulb burned out indicator i.e LED The WigWag is commanded by three #22 wires which connect via one or more switches to ground. The current is millli=amps so just about any switch can be used. For example, several customers are using small switches on their stick to turn on and off the WigWag function. 3. Easy to configure one or more switches to control the leading edge lights your way:- Example, one DPDT switch center-off can be wired so that down turns on both Leading Edge lights and up turns on WIgWaging. Another example, a rotary switch can be wired for the functions Off, Taxi, Landing, Both, and WigWig. Another example, 2 DPDT center-off switches wired to create the functions left switch up for Taxi Light on, right switch up for Landing Light on and either switch down for WigWaging the leading edge lights. Many more switch designs are possible. 3. Redundant power supply:- If one light should short and blow a fuse or circuit breaker, the other leading edge light still functions for a safe landing. 4. Bulb warmer circuit:- Extends bulb life 5. And more, go to http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ for an Adobe Acrobate copy of the data sheet or email me and I will send it to you as an attachment. Price is $90 plus $6 shipping and handling. Currently, delivery is averaging about 3 weeks. Bob RV6A almost http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Kuntz"@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Failure to contact nuckolls
Date: Sep 16, 2001
Bob, Thanks for hanging in there. I'm a graduate electrical engineer, a Boeing avionics and software development manager, a former Naval Reserve P-3 squadron commanding officer and a Cozy builder. Despite all these credentials, there's still a lot I have to learn about the hands-on practical knowledge necessary to complete my homebuilt project. So far I've gained a lot from your messages on this site and on the sites in which you previously participated. There's a lot of chaff on the web, and you are by far the most consistent credible source of good information. I marvel at the time you must spend daily reading e-mail and formulating reasoned and informative answers. Thanks for your continuing support to homebuilders world-wide... we really appreciate it. Paul Kuntz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2001
From: wx3o <wx3o(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: Printing Labels on Wire...
R, I wish I could. make printed wire for harnesses. I think it would be a good business. I did not mean to imply that I owned the company. I work for ARINC and the equipment I described is part of our company prototyping facility. Mark R Colman wrote: > > Mark, > > Would your company be interested in making harnesses? > > R > > Matt, > > My company uses a device as you described. It uses a tiny laser to write on > the wire as it is pulled through. It is not a very large device. I'm sorry > I > don't know the name ot mfg. > > Best Regards, > Mark Julicher > taylorcraft list > > Matt Dralle wrote: > > Dralle) > > > > Hello Listers, > > > > I've been pondering the impending electrical wiring of the 'ol RV-4 and > > it occurred to me that at some point in my 10-year building process > someone > > showed me a nifty wire labeler that would allow you to put most any > > gauge of wire in one side and pull it completely through. The labeler > > would repeatedly print a string of text along the wire from one end to the > > other. I have no idea now where I saw this labeler or what it was > > called. Does anyone have any insight on this device? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Matt Dralle > > RV-4 / #1763 / N442RV > > > > -- > > > > Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 > > 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email > > http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > > > Great minds discuss ideas, > > Average minds discuss events, > > Small minds discuss people... > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2001
From: Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Failure to contact nuckolls
>Bob, > Thanks for your continuing support to homebuilders >world-wide... we really appreciate it. >Paul Kuntz We certainly do!!!! Graham ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2001
From: Kevin Kinney <kkinney(at)fuse.net>
Subject: Re: 11274 Kinney
Thank you for replying so quickly. I hadn't considered the fact that ties do get brittle. As you say, I'll reserve those for areas that are easily inspected & maintained. Otherwise, I'll look into using your idea. Thank you again, kk "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > Comments/Questions: Love your articles! Based on those, I'm ordering today. > By the way, I was intrigued by your plan for fixing wires in lightening holes. > I've hear of an idea and would like your comment on it. It involves drilling > small holes outside the lightening hole and running cable ties through > the holes. The ties are loosely linked together in the lightening hole and > the cables are run through this. > > Thank you for your order. I'm out of Rev9 books and Rev10 > is a few weeks from going to press. Your order will be filled > with an Rev10 book at the Rev9 price even if the price of > the Rev10 book is higher. > > I've done what you suggested for temporary installations . . . > the goal is to immobilize the wire bundles in a manner that > brings no vulnerable materials (insulation or support) against > sharp edges of sheet metal. The ties will indeed protect > wires but they are themselves subject to failure. Further, > nylon ties should not be used for primary support in areas > not subject to periodic inspection . . . they get brittle > with age, temperature cycles and environmental conditions. > > Any place you use a nylon tie should be easily and routinely > inspected. I like to shotgun every tie strap under the cowl > every annual . . . takes minutes, costs a couple of bucks and > keeps the quality of your craftsmanship in top form. Ties > behind the panel are not so highly stressed and can be depended > upon for longer service . . . but they too are in an area > easily watched. The cable support techniques I show at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/LighteningHole/cablehol.jpg > > are recommended for areas under floorboards, behind upholstery > and in areas of the airplane that are seldom looked at in > detail . . . it takes a little more effort but you can > be sure that your wire bundles are where they belong the > day the airplane is finally scrapped. > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------------- > ( It may be better to be a live jackal than a ) > ( dead lion, but it is better still to be a ) > ( live lion. And usually easier. ) > ( - Lazarus Long - ) > ---------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R Colman" <ronincolman(at)home.com>
Subject: Temperarure Measurement using Thermisters
Date: Sep 16, 2001
try www.digikey.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of lehmansmtl Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 10:23 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Temperarure Measurement using Thermisters It seems that all Westach temperature indicators for oil, air, fuel or coolant use the same characteristic NTC thermister: i.e. 3000 ohms @ 25C, resistance ratio R0/R50 about 8.61 (R at 0C is 9300 ohms and R at 50C is 1080 ohms). Many inexpensive bead type thermisters are available but, despite an extensive search, I've not found one that matches the characteristic above. Perhaps someone on the list can suggest can suggest a source. Thanks. Mike > From: "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouples > > > For thermocouples and information on how to use them check out > http://www.omega.com/ > > > Best regards, > > Rob Housman > Europa XS Tri-Gear > 90% complete, 90% to go > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Cole" <raycole(at)bellsouth.net> > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:43 AM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouples > > > > > > Does anyone have a good source for thermocouples and other temperature > > sensors? I've been inspired by Bob Nuckolls and Jim Weir to attempt my > > own temperature measurement system. It may not work but maybe I'll learn > > something in the process. > > > > Ray Cole NetZero Platinum Only $9.95 per month! Sign up in September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Wire support in lightening holes
> Comments/Questions: Love your articles! Based on those, I'm ordering today. > By the way, I was intrigued by your plan for fixing wires in lightening holes. > I've hear of an idea and would like your comment on it. It involves drilling > small holes outside the lightening hole and running cable ties through > the holes. The ties are loosely linked together in the lightening hole and > the cables are run through this. > > Thank you for your order. I'm out of Rev9 books and Rev10 > is a few weeks from going to press. Your order will be filled > with an Rev10 book at the Rev9 price even if the price of > the Rev10 book is higher. > > I've done what you suggested for temporary installations . . . > the goal is to immobilize the wire bundles in a manner that > brings no vulnerable materials (insulation or support) against > sharp edges of sheet metal. The ties will indeed protect > wires but they are themselves subject to failure. Further, > nylon ties should not be used for primary support in areas > not subject to periodic inspection . . . they get brittle > with age, temperature cycles and environmental conditions. > > Any place you use a nylon tie should be easily and routinely > inspected. I like to shotgun every tie strap under the cowl > every annual . . . takes minutes, costs a couple of bucks and > keeps the quality of your craftsmanship in top form. Ties > behind the panel are not so highly stressed and can be depended > upon for longer service . . . but they too are in an area > easily watched. The cable support techniques I show at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/LighteningHole/cablehol.jpg > > are recommended for areas under floorboards, behind upholstery > and in areas of the airplane that are seldom looked at in > detail . . . it takes a little more effort but you can > be sure that your wire bundles are where they belong the > day the airplane is finally scrapped. > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------------- > ( It may be better to be a live jackal than a ) > ( dead lion, but it is better still to be a ) > ( live lion. And usually easier. ) > ( - Lazarus Long - ) > ---------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Anderson" <janderson412(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Printing Labels on Wire...
Date: Sep 17, 2001
----- Original @matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Printing Labels on Wire... What I did Matt was print the labels out on the PC using small letters, cut off in thin strips and attatch to the wire with clear heat shrink. Looks great - tidy. John A. ----- Original Message ----- From: dralle(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2001 12:12 .com; aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; avionics-list(at)matronics.com; rv4-list(at)matronics.com; rv6-list(at)matronics.com; tailwind-list(at)matronics.com; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Printing Labels on Wire... e) Hello Listers, I've been pondering the impending electrical wiring of the 'ol RV-4 and it occurred to me that at some point in my 10-year building process someone showed me a nifty wire labeler that would allow you to put most any gauge of wire in one side and pull it completely through. The labeler would repeatedly print a string of text along the wire from one end to the other. I have no idea now where I saw this labeler or what it was called. Does anyone have any insight on this device? Thanks! Matt Dralle RV-4 / #1763 / N442RV -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft Great minds discuss ideas, Average minds discuss events, Small minds discuss people... = = = = = = n.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2001
From: Dave & Wendy Grosvenor <dwg(at)iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: Printing Labels on Wire...
You can even get clear heatshrink with glue inside so that the whole lot never moves. One supplier is UK based RS Components, http://www.rs-components.com pn:157-3852. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, 17 September, 2001 09:21 Subject: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Printing Labels on Wire... ----- Original @matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Printing Labels on Wire... What I did Matt was print the labels out on the PC using small letters, cut off in thin strips and attatch to the wire with clear heat shrink. Looks great - tidy. John A. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Use of computer power supply
> >I have a 200 watt filtered power supply from a an old computer. It says the >yellow wires output 12 volts. Can I use this power for my bench testing? >Can I hook it directly to a 12 volt 4.5 amp battery I am using for portable >power to charge it....attended of course? > >Ross Mickey >RV6A Unfortunately, no . . . a computer power supply outputs a variety of voltages. Not sure about modern devices but the last time I had to open one up, it was a device that delivered +5, -5, +12 and -12 volts. The sum total of power delivered by these voltages was what ever the power supply was rated for. Individually, each output was limited by its internal circuitry which was in turn designed to meet the needs of the computer it was mated to. The +5 output may be rated for as much as 20A for a total of 100W. The -12 and -5 outputs were used in support of limited tasks like biasing up the chips in your memory array or providing a negative rail for the RS-232 serial output ports. The power required to do this was generally a watt or two for the whole computer. Nowadays, these voltages are generated totally within the chips that need them. +12 is generally used to run fans and drive motors. This output may be rated for upwards of 5-10 amps on larger supplies . . . certainly not an insignificant number but certainly a fraction of the power supply's total output capability. One CAN use these supplies as sources of regulated and conditioned power . . . but often you need to have a load on all outputs that makes it appear to the power supply that there is a computer attached. Attempts to set one of these critters on the bench, plug it in and expect predicable and useful performance from only one of its outputs are generally unsatisfactory. The other problem is that you need a power supply set for 13.8-14.2 volts. The power supply needs to be a surrogate alternator . . . a regulated 12 volt computer supply will run goodies in the airplane as if it were a BATTERY . . . it would not charge a battery. I have stocked suitable power supplies from time to time. Radio Shack has some too. If I were building an airplane, you can be sure that the first time any switch is moved to the ON position to test the functionality of a system, a 13.8 volt, wall powered supply of energy would be the source. I wouldn't put a REAL battery in the airplane until the day I plan to but air under the wheels. All testing up to that point should use what ever jury-rigged combination of lead-acid battery and 120VAC power that lets me proof the system. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Stallings" <jetjockey(at)mail.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2001
Subject: DO IT TODAY!
*** PLEASE FORWARD THIS REQUEST TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST *** Fellow Americans: Many of us recently received or will receive a tax rebate check from the U.S. Government. In the spirit of America, please consider contributing half of your rebate to a charity of your choice. Some excellent choices are: American Red Cross National Disaster Relief Fund - http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-wtc1/ The Salvation Army - http://store.yahoo.com/salvationarmy/ Save the Children (USA) - http://store.yahoo.com/savechild/ NY Firefighter's 9-11 Disaster Relief Fund - http://store.yahoo.com/firedonations/ All of these charities are set up to take credit cards on these web sites. This is by no means a complete list. There are MANY other fine charities. Do it TODAY. Now, please consider taking the other half of your rebate check and investing it in an *AMERICAN* company or mutual fund that invests mainly in *AMERICAN* companies. Do it TODAY. Your generosity in assisting the organizations that are helping the citizens of NYC and Washington, D.C. will be of immeasurable help. Additionally, your investment in America will be a source of stability and a LOUD and CLEAR message to the cowards that perpetrated this attack on America. We have not and will not be defeated by their vile attempts to destroy this great country! DO IT TODAY! Thank you for your consideration. God Bless America. *** PLEASE FORWARD THIS REQUEST TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST *** -- FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup Talk More, Pay Less with Net2Phone Direct(R), up to 1500 minutes free! http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?143 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Printing Labels on Wire...
Been following this thread . . . please don't make this more complicated, expensive or time consuming than it needs to be . . . (1) The greatest advantage of putting identification on any wire is to assist in future maintenance and troubleshooting. (2) 99% of the value of identifying a wire is to know WHICH one it is, there is 1% value in knowing what it does, were it is located in the grand scheme of things or how big the wire is. Some production aircraft numbering schemes go to great lengths to build a lot of information into their wire numbering schemes. YOUR airplane doesn't have 500 miles of wire in it . . . while Cadillac approach to the task may be personally satisfying I'll suggest that it could more than double the amount of time it takes to install a wire and adds little value down the road. (3) It's a safe bet that everyone reading this note has a computer. You also have a printer. Devise the simplest possible wire numbering scheme . . . 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc works good. Check out clear heatshrink at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#s817c This stuff is available from B&C from the website catalog and from electronics supply stores. The $18 kit offered from our website is enough to do a whole airplane. The picture associated with the link above shows some relatively elaborate numbering/labeling schemes . . . it's okay if you really want to do that but doesn't help much in the future. Go to an office supply store and buy full sheets of Avery label material and print your wire identification in columns on full sheets. Use an aerial or aerial bold like font . . . smallest you can print (typically 6 pt). When you're ready to go to the shop, put your full sheet of labels on a polyethylene (white plastic) cutting board from the cooking tools isle at WallMart. With trusty heat gun and hobby knife in hand (see: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/wirelab/laserlab.gif . . . you're ready to label wires. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken Stribling" <bbattery(at)bendcable.com>
Subject: Re: Rotating map/ panel lights...
Date: Sep 17, 2001
> I was planning to install the red LED rotating map / panel lights (that > Van's used to sell) in my RV. I was recently told that they are no > longer being produced and that Vans and other vendors are now all sold > out. It is no longer shown in Vans online accessories catalog. I just put one in my plane It is the same one's the police use 15" flexible neck with a red lens and adjustable high intensity light about 55.00 to my door. try www.galls.com or phone 1-800-477-7766 ordered on Tuesday and received it Wednesday by overnight mail. Just got my flying papers last Monday and then got grounded, dont figure Ken S. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Merle Wagner" <merle_wagner(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Orlando Training
Date: Sep 18, 2001
Bob, Just wanted to pass on a "Thank You !" for the session in Orlando. Having worked in RF, electronics, computers, networks for the past 40 years along with General radiotelephone/radar, A&P rating, commercial ticket I thought I had some sense of how to wire an airplane. Well, you opened my eyes to concepts I had not even considered. Strange what happens to mindsets... Anxiously waiting for the book and then off to research how I will wire my scale mustang. Regards, Merle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2001
From: mitchf(at)netscape.com (Mitchell Faatz)
Subject: Matching shunt?
I just received my little 1.5" cluster gauges from Mitchell. One of the gauges is a 45 amp ammeter but the shunt is stamped "50 amps". Aren't these supposed to match? Or are they operating under the assumption that any error will be hard to see on a 1.5" gauge? Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finish Kit ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Stafford" <dstafford98(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Master Contactor is very warm
Date: Sep 19, 2001
My master relay / contactor is very warm or maybe even hot. It's nearly hot enought to scorch my finger. So, is this normal ? I've measured the coil current at 0.7 amps. David Stafford building RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Matching shunt?
> >I just received my little 1.5" cluster gauges from Mitchell. One of the >gauges is a 45 amp ammeter but the shunt is stamped "50 amps". Aren't >these supposed to match? Or are they operating under the assumption >that any error will be hard to see on a 1.5" gauge? > >Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finish Kit I think your assumption about their assumption is correct. If you'd like, I can trim the shunt for you to make it a 45A device but what you have is quite useful as is. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor is very warm
> > >My master relay / contactor is very warm or maybe even hot. It's nearly hot >enought to scorch my finger. So, is this normal ? > > I've measured the coil current at 0.7 amps. > > >David Stafford >building RV-6 If you multiply 0.7A * 14 volts we get right at 10 watts of heat to be dissipated from the surface of the contactor. A device with this surface area and power dissipation can be expected to rise about 40 degrees C (70 F) above ambient. Assuming a 70 F room, the surface of the contactor will top out in the neighborhood of 140-150F . . . NOT something you'd want to put your finger on but a LONG way from damaging to components of the contactor which will operate at 200F or better. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( It may be better to be a live jackal than a ) ( dead lion, but it is better still to be a ) ( live lion. And usually easier. ) ( - Lazarus Long - ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2001
From: Wes K <wsknettl(at)centurytel.net>
AeroElectric Digest
Subject: VFR open 0000Z 9-20-2001 with restrictions
As of 0000 UTC Thursday September 20, 2001, the FAA is allowing certain Part 91 flight operations -- in the U.S. National Airspace System. A temporary flight restriction is in place within a 25-nm radius of the JFK or DCA VOR/DMEs, with exception of the Class D airspace associated with the HPN (Westchester County) and HEF (Manassas Regional) airports. Scheduled operations continue to increase as previously authorized. Additionally, any flights which do operate are directed to maintain a listening watch on Guard frequencies 121.5 VHF or 243.0 UHF. Click here for the complete text of SECDOT Mineta's press release allowing Part 91 IFR operations. AVweb will update its readers as conditions allow. These notices, restrictions and advisories may change at any time and without notice. As always, DO NOT attempt any operation in the National Airspace System without first obtaining and understanding a thorough pre-flight briefing. !FDC 1/0215 FDC SPECIAL NOTICE. ATTENTION ALL OPERATORS - SPECIAL NOTICE EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR 91.139 (EMERGENCY AIR TRAFFIC RULES), PART 91 IFR AND VFR AIRCRAFT OPERATION ARE AUTHORIZED AS SPECIFIED IN NOTAMS 1/0111 AND 1/0112. TO THE EXTENT THAT CONTRARY LANGUAGE EXISTS, THIS NOTAM SHALL SUPERCEDE. NOTE: FOR PURPOSES OF THIS NOTAM, THE "TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE OF THE U.S." MEANS THE AIRSPACE OVER THE U.S., ITS TERRITORIES AND POSSESSIONS AND THE AIRSPACE OVERLYING THE WATERS BETWEEN THE U.S. COAST AND 12 NAUTICAL MILES FROM THE U.S. COAST. NOTE: FOR PURPOSES OF THIS NOTAM, AN OVERFLIGHT MEANS THE AIRCRAFT TAKES OFF FROM AND LANDS AT LOCATIONS OUTSIDE THE U.S., ITS TERRITORIES OR POSSESSIONS BUT ENROUTE TRANSITS THE TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE OF THE U.S. WITHOUT LANDING IN THE U.S., ITS TERRITORIES OR POSSESSIONS. NOTE: FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS NOTAM, "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE" IS DEFINED AS THAT AIRSPACE WITHIN THE EXTREME LATERAL LIMIT OF CLASS B AIRPACE FROM SURFACE TO INFINITY (I.E. SUCH OPERATIONS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED WITHIN, BELOW, OR ABOVE CLASS B AIRSPACE): PART I. EXCEPT FOR THE OPERATIONS LISTED BELOW, PART 91 VFR OPERATION ARE PERMITTED WITHIN THE TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE OF THE U.S., FOR U.S. REGISTERED AIRCRAFT PROVIDED THAT THOSE OPERATIONS ARE CONDUCTED OUTSIDE "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE." A. THE FOLLOWING TYPES OF OPERATIONS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED: 1. CIVIL AIRCRAFT VFR FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS 2. BANNER TOWING OPERATIONS 3. SIGHT SEEING FLIGHT OPERATIONS CONDUCTED FOR COMPENSATION OR HIRE (UNDER PART 91, PURSUANT TO THE EXCEPTION IN 119.1(e)(2)) 4. TRAFFIC WATCH FLIGHT OPERATIONS 5. AIRSHIP/BLIMP OPERATIONS 6. NEWS REPORTING OPERATIONS B. EXAMPLES OF AUTHORIZED OPERATIONS, OUTSIDE "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE" INCLUDE: 1. AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE REPOSITIONING. 2. BALLOONS. 3. CIVIL AIR PATROL. 4. GLIDERS. 5. MANUFACTURER PRODUCTION FLIGHT TESTS. 6. MAPPING/PHOTOGRAPHY MISSIONS. 7. PIPELINE/POWERLINE INSPECTIONS. 8. SEAPLANES. 9. SKYDIVING. 10. ULTRALIGHTS. 11. WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT OPERATIONS. PART II. THE FOLLOWING PART 91 IFR OPERATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED WITHIN THE TERRITORIAL AIRSPACE OF THE U.S. 1. FOREIGN REGISTERED AIRCRAFT DEPARTING THE U.S. WITH NO INTERMEDIATE STOPS WITHIN THE U.S. 2. FOREIGN REGISTERED AIRCRAFT OVERFLYING THE U.S. WITH A GROSS TAKEOFF WEIGHT LESS THAN 95,000 POUNDS. PART III. AUTHORIZATIONS. 1. ALL PART 91 IFR/VFR OPERATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED IN ALASKAN AIRSPACE. 2. WITHIN "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE," ALL MEDIVAC, RESCUE/RECOVERY, FIRE FIGHTING, LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND EMERGENCY EVACUATION AIRCRAFT CAN CONDUCT IFR OR VFR OPERATIONS USING AN ATC-ASSIGNED DISCRETE BEACON CODE. 3. COMMERCIAL SPACE OPERATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED AND MUST BE APPROVED IN PART IV. IF YOU ARE UNSURE OF YOUR AUTHORIZATION STATUS CONTACT LOCAL FAA FLIGHT SERVICE STATION AT 1-800-WXBRIEF. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: voltage regulator(fr 14v to 9v)
>lectric Bob: Just wondering when to expect the voltage regulator? Just finished it. In the mail today. >................have purchased a light weight starter with a >built-in solenoid.........At present, have a starter solenoid >mounted on my firewall according to Dwg.z-10 of your textbook Okay >........starter designer informed me that those type of solenoids >are famous for remaining closed and there is no way to know that >the starter was engaged.. Not true . . . I presume you were not talking to B&C for I'm sure you would have received a different answer. The remote mounted contactor is no more likely to "remain closed" than is the contactor built into any starter. If abused or poorly designed, either style can weld. IF your starter has a "bendix" style pinion gear, then you CAN bypass the built in solenioid if you so choose. IF your starter's pinion gear is mechanically extended by action of built in solenoid, then you're obligated to use it . . . See article at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf . . . to get an explanation of how this kind of starter engagement system works. There can be a real problem with using an external contactor (solenoid) IF the starter you have is fitted with a permanent magnet motor -AND- it uses mechanical pinion engagement -AND- wired with an external contactor (as shown in most of our power distribution diagrams), you can suffer delayed disengagement of the pinion gear as the starter motor spins down and generates enough power to back-feed the engagement solenoid. I diagram at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z14.pdf illustrates a means for installing an auxiliary starter control relay to (1) reduce stresses on panel mounted starter switch (as described in earlier article) and (2) break power to the built in solenoid/contactor when the starter button is released. This will prevent the delayed disengagement syndrom. >I proceeded to inform him that I have an idiot light on a separate >circuit that tells me when the starter contactor is open or closed. >He informs me that that is a great idea (probably worked for NASA >at one time or another) Ha! Don't think NASA ever got involved in such systems. These lights are shown on some of our diagrams . . . they're also stock on some production aircraft dating back to the 70's > The starter can be installed using my present starter solenoid >set-up, leaving the solenoid on the (new)starter for some future >usage........Redundant , I quess.........What do you think Depends on bendix versus no-bendix and PM motor versus wound field. Which combination do you have? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vince" <vwelch(at)knownet.net>
Subject: Rear Mounted Battery
Date: Sep 20, 2001
I am planning a rear mounted battery for my RV-8A. Since this represents a long run of #2 AWG cable from the master contactor before the first circuit protection, do you recommend some type of inline fuse right after the master contactor? If so, what size would be acceptable? I am concerned about it blowing under starting current. Vince Welch RV-8A Fuselage Roaming Shores, Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Anderson" <janderson412(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Wiog Wag circuit URLs
Date: Sep 21, 2001
Bob, would you be so kind as to post the web addresses for the wig wag circuits again. Clickie finger, sorry about that. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 2001
From: Mike Thompson <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wiog Wag circuit URLs
--- John Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > > Bob, would you be so kind as to post the web addresses for the > wig wag circuits again. Clickie finger, sorry about that. >jhgsdfiufh< http://aeroelectric.com/articles.html >lksjdflkjfds< >kjdhfgkjhlkjahkjsf< >kjhXCfhljhdfgkjs< Mike Thompson Austin, TX -6 N140RV (Reserved) Firewall Forward ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Rear Mounted Battery
> >I am planning a rear mounted battery for my RV-8A. Since this >represents a long run of #2 AWG cable from the master contactor >before the first circuit protection, do you recommend some type of >inline fuse right after the master contactor? If so, what size would >be acceptable? I am concerned about it blowing under starting >current. Fat wires have been run from tailcones to the engine compartment on tens of thousands of airplanes . . . and are not considered a hazard as long as you keep the battery contactor right next to the battery. It's very easy to install these main power distribution feeders such that they are at minimal risk for mechanical damage . . . even if they DO get in contact with something, the general result is that the fault burns away the contacting material and the fault clears. You COULD install an ANL200 current limiter in the line at the battery . . . it WOULD work to "protect" the wire and it WOULD carry starter current . . . but about 5 decades experience with this condition shows it to be unnecessary. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rear Mounted Battery
Date: Sep 21, 2001
If you do some analysis and write a report, you can even get away with putting the battery in the tail, and the battery contactor on the firewall. Just look at the 182S, 182T, and T182T. David Swartzendruber Wichita > Fat wires have been run from tailcones to the > engine compartment on tens of thousands of > airplanes . . . and are not considered a hazard > as long as you keep the battery contactor right > next to the battery. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 2001
From: Shannon Stewart <oneeasy(at)shawneelink.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor is very warm
I have a Cole Hersey master relay and mine too seems very hot..I measured it at 160 plus degrees F an it pulls 565 miliamps after it warms up...Not good in a composite airplane. An RV might not see this temp because of the heat sink effect of an aluminum mounting.... Shannon Stewart Long EZ ----- Original Message ----- From: David Stafford <dstafford98(at)compuserve.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 6:45 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Master Contactor is very warm > > > My master relay / contactor is very warm or maybe even hot. It's nearly hot > enought to scorch my finger. So, is this normal ? > > I've measured the coil current at 0.7 amps. > > > David Stafford > building RV-6 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag circuit URLs
> > >Bob, would you be so kind as to post the web addresses for the wig wag circuits again. Clickie finger, sorry about that. Goto: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html about two screens down the page there are 4 options for wig-wag installations you can look over and select as they meet your needs. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Figures don't display on spikes article
>Hi Bob , Thanks for your reply . I did as you suggested (downloaded first ) but when I try to "open" w/ Acrobat I get a "window" that says "invalid color space". I hope you have another idea , plan B , b4 we resort to snail mail . I have a fax machine if you would'nt mind but I have it on an A/B switch ( I need to know when to expect fax ). Thanks again , Chris I checked that file and it appears to have been damaged. I've re-compiled it and uploaded a fresh version at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spike.pdf try downloading one more time. I think it will work now. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Rear Mounted Battery
> >If you do some analysis and write a report, you can even get away with >putting the battery in the tail, and the battery contactor on the firewall. >Just look at the 182S, 182T, and T182T. > >David Swartzendruber >Wichita Why did they want to do that? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor is very warm
> >I have a Cole Hersey master relay and mine too seems very hot..I measured it >at 160 plus degrees F an it pulls 565 miliamps after it warms up...Not good >in a composite airplane. An RV might not see this temp because of the heat >sink effect of an aluminum mounting.... >Shannon Stewart >Long EZ Put an aluminum plate under it . . . I've seen one installation where a builder formed three "u" channels with about 1" legs 5" long, and variable widths such that when nested, they formed a finned heat dissipating base for his contactor . . . Looked like about 0.032" aluminum sheet. He told me that it dropped the temperature rise on the contactor's mounting feet by over 30 degrees. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/21/01
Date: Sep 22, 2001
>>>I am planning a rear mounted battery for my RV-8A. Since this >represents a long run of #2 AWG cable from the master contactor >before the first circuit protection, do you recommend some type of >inline fuse right after the master contactor? If so, what size would >be acceptable? I am concerned about it blowing under starting >current.<< I assume airplanes are the same as cars (???) and the way battery cables are supposed to be designed on cars is that the cable is sized to the battery, not the starter. The cable is presumably large enough so that if there was a short the battery would go dead before the cable would get hot enough to start a fire. Since airplane batteries are about 1/4 the capacity of car batteries, I'm sure it works the same way. A smaller wire would have to be protected, but not the main cable. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/21/01
Date: Sep 22, 2001
>>I have a Cole Hersey master relay and mine too seems very hot..I measured it at 160 plus degrees F an it pulls 565 miliamps after it warms up...Not good in a composite airplane. An RV might not see this temp because of the heat sink effect of an aluminum mounting....<< A very good observation - I wonder the same thing. The current draw is about what I would expect and therefore would heat up about as you describe as that represents about 7 watts of power dissipation. I would be sorely tempted to put a mechanical master switch in mine like race cars have. Lightweight, reliable, and no power dissipation. The other comments talk about not requiring the master to be at the battery, which also sounds logical. Just put the master switch under the seat where you can get at it. Why not? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/21/01
Date: Sep 22, 2001
Because the wire feeding the switch is very long and always on. It is easily damaged and has to be heavier to carry the starter loads over that longer length. They used to do that. A Stinson 10A has a BIG knife switch under the seat. My Bellanca had a switching ground system to negate always being hot. I took it out and used a relay. Shortened the ground path to starter by 6 feet. Also solved a hard starting and a battery that quickly ran down. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org http://www.eaa.org for latest flying rules ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 11:03 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/21/01 >>I have a Cole Hersey master relay and mine too seems very hot..I measured it at 160 plus degrees F an it pulls 565 miliamps after it warms up...Not good in a composite airplane. An RV might not see this temp because of the heat sink effect of an aluminum mounting....<< A very good observation - I wonder the same thing. The current draw is about what I would expect and therefore would heat up about as you describe as that represents about 7 watts of power dissipation. I would be sorely tempted to put a mechanical master switch in mine like race cars have. Lightweight, reliable, and no power dissipation. The other comments talk about not requiring the master to be at the battery, which also sounds logical. Just put the master switch under the seat where you can get at it. Why not? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Anderson" <janderson412(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag circuit URLs
Date: Sep 23, 2001
Thanks again Bob. John A. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, 22 September 2001 23:40 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig Wag circuit URLs lls(at)aeroelectric.com> otmail.com> > > >Bob, would you be so kind as to post the web addresses for the wig wag circuits again. Clickie finger, sorry about that. Goto: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html about two screens down the page there are 4 options for wig-wag installations you can look over and select as they meet your needs. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com = = = = = = r download : http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rear Mounted Battery
Date: Sep 22, 2001
I think it's because they wanted to use the same J-box that is used on the 172 and 206. The J-box is mounted on the firewall and includes the Battery master relay. They put unslit convoluted tubing around the hot wire to give it some extra protection. David > > >If you do some analysis and write a report, you can even get away with > >putting the battery in the tail, and the battery contactor on the firewall. > >Just look at the 182S, 182T, and T182T. > > > >David Swartzendruber > >Wichita > > Why did they want to do that? > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Battery Master Relay location
Date: Sep 22, 2001
One of the reasons for putting the battery master as close to the battery as you can is so that if you are preparing for a forced landing, you can turn of the battery master and eliminate as much of the hot wire as possible. Having a long hot wire that can possibly be crunched by the surrounding sheet metal at the same time that fuel may be leaking is something most of us want to avoid. David Swartzendruber Wichita . The other comments talk > about not requiring the master to be at the battery, which also sounds > logical. Just put the master switch under the seat where you can get at it. > Why not? > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: Master switch location
Date: Sep 23, 2001
All good comments about the master "switch" location. Crash protection is a good reason - but of course, most crashes probably happen with the master on. Although, what is the reason for having a "master" at all? I assume it is to be able to shut off the whole electrical system if you want to - it certainly has nothing to do with the storage of the plane, except in the old days when there would have likely been some current leakage through the insulation, etc. that would have run the battery down. Just think of all the electrical connections that have to be good just to have electrical power at all - quite a few. On my idea of having a battery contactor, I have contemplated for a forward-mounted battery a contactor ahead of the firewall with a shaft that goes back to a location under the panel. For a rear-mounted battery like mine a contactor under the floor. In either case the wire run would not have to be extended to accommodate the manual master switch. Incidentally, race cars often are required to have a master switch right at the window so rescue workers could shut it off after a crash. Here's an idea - allow the battery to slide forward against a spring or by shearing a bolt and when it does it opens a contactor right at the battery - sort of a "crash sensor" all by itself. With a year to go I have lots of time to think.. Gary Casey Lancair ES in my garage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2001
From: Steve Kay <skay(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Master switch location
That's an interesting thought Gary. I'm sure there's some commercially available inertia switch. Of course I'd have to reset it after most of MY landings. -Steve > > Here's an idea - allow the battery to slide forward against a spring or by > shearing a bolt and when it does it opens a contactor right at the battery - > sort of a "crash sensor" all by itself. > > With a year to go I have lots of time to think.. > > Gary Casey > Lancair ES in my garage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Rear Mounted Battery
> >I think it's because they wanted to use the same J-box that is used on the >172 and 206. The J-box is mounted on the firewall and includes the Battery >master relay. They put unslit convoluted tubing around the hot wire to give >it some extra protection. >David Hmmmm . . . Cessna is renowned for the one-size-fits-all philosophy . . . that's how the C-152 got a 28V/60A alternator! Certainly good for the production side of the house and it MAY have had a benefit in terms of out the door cost of the smaller airplanes but the benefits to the larger airplanes were probably greater due to larger volumes of common parts. Commonality of systems architecture is probably a positive out in the field too . . . if you can fix a 152, you can fix a 200 series airplane too. This is a case where we need to be critical of the notion, "If it's good for 10,000 Cessnas, it's gotta be good for MY airplane . . ." If we're going to make considered decisions that affect the value of our homebuilts in positive ways we need to compare both the philosophy -AND- the technology of decisions made on SpamCans. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2001
From: Jim Streit <wooody98(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Alternator light
Bob, I have been helping a friend work on the electrical system on his RV-4 and we are having a problem with the alternator warning light. He is using a1987 Civic alternator, (I believe it's a 60 amp alternator). The connections to the alternator are 12 volt bus to the Ign.. terminal and a light lead connected to the light terminal with the other side going to the 12 volt bus. The alternator charges the system but the light does not go out with the engine running and the alternator charging. We have taken the alternator to an auto parts store to have it check out and everything checks out OK including the light circuit. Do you have any idea what the problem is and how it can be corrected? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2001
From: Jim Streit <wooody98(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Alternator light
Bob, I have been helping a friend work on the electrical system on his RV-4 and we are having a problem with the alternator warning light. He is using a1987 Civic alternator, (I believe it's a 60 amp alternator). The connections to the alternator are 12 volt bus to the Ign.. terminal and a light lead connected to the light terminal with the other side going to the 12 volt bus. The alternator charges the system but the light does not go out with the engine running and the alternator charging. We have taken the alternator to an auto parts store to have it check out and everything checks out OK including the light circuit. Do you have any idea what the problem is and how it can be corrected? Jim Streit RV-9 90073 wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2001
From: ripsteel(at)edge.net (Mark Phillips)
Subject: Re: Master switch location
My daughters' 91 Ford Escort has an inertially tripped fuel pump cutout switch that opens under moderate impact. I only know because she smacked a fencepost and we couldn't get the car to start. Whipped out the trusty Haynes manual and saw the switch (located at top of right rear shock tower under an access cover- push to reset) Could be fairly common on 4-wheelers, but the first I ever saw. Perhaps this type switch could be used to feed the battery master, but not sure if the possible benefits outweigh nuisance trips/ added part count. Still best to kill master when unplanned earth-contact inevitable... (unless you prefer a large smoke signal & flare to mark your location for SAR) From The PossumWorks in TN Mark Phillips Steve Kay wrote: > > That's an interesting thought Gary. I'm sure there's some commercially available > inertia switch. Of course I'd have to reset it after most of MY landings. -Steve > > > > > Here's an idea - allow the battery to slide forward against a spring or by > > shearing a bolt and when it does it opens a contactor right at the battery - > > sort of a "crash sensor" all by itself. > > > > With a year to go I have lots of time to think.. > > > > Gary Casey > > Lancair ES in my garage > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Anderson" <janderson412(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Master switch location
Date: Sep 24, 2001
Steve, Gary, it (the switch) would need to be in easy reach of the pilot if you ever experience turbulance like we in NZ can in westerly conditions!! John A. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Kay Sent: Monday, 24 September 2001 01:15 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master switch location That's an interesting thought Gary. I'm sure there's some commercially available inertia switch. Of course I'd have to reset it after most of MY landings. -Steve > > Here's an idea - allow the battery to slide forward against a spring or by > shearing a bolt and when it does it opens a contactor right at the battery - > sort of a "crash sensor" all by itself. > > With a year to go I have lots of time to think.. > > Gary Casey > Lancair ES in my garage = = = = = = r download : http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dave ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: sd-8 regulator
Date: Sep 23, 2001
Is the regulator that comes with the sd-8 alternator an adjustable type? Dave Ford ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 24, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: sd-8 regulator
> >Is the regulator that comes with the sd-8 alternator an adjustable type? > >Dave Ford No . . . they come pre-set in the neighborhood of 14.2 - 14.6 volts which is in the ballpark with most automotive regulators which are also not adjustable. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 24, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator light
> >Bob, > >I have been helping a friend work on the electrical system on his RV-4 >and we are having a problem with the alternator warning light. He is >using a1987 Civic alternator, (I believe it's a 60 amp alternator). The >connections to the alternator are 12 volt bus to the Ign.. terminal and >a light lead connected to the light terminal with the other side going >to the 12 volt bus. The alternator charges the system but the light >does not go out with the engine running and the alternator charging. We >have taken the alternator to an auto parts store to have it check out >and everything checks out OK including the light circuit. >Do you have any idea what the problem is and how it can be corrected? > >Jim Streit >RV-9 90073 >wings I'm not familiar with the alternator you cited. It sounds like you've wired it right but you might check the wiring diagram for the car that this alternator came out of and see if there's anything different about how it's done in the car. The best thing to do is NOT use the built in warning light of any automotive alternator and add your own LOW VOLTS WARN light to the system that illuminates any time the bus drops below 13.0 volts. This is because there are failure modes in the automotive products that cannot be annunciated by the built in warning system. Has your friend included over-voltage protection too? See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bleadov.pdf Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
From: "Donald Nowakowski" <nowakod(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Sep 24, 2001
09/24/2001 02:38:30 PM Bob, I have an RV-6 and it is wired as shown in drawing Z1 with the following exceptions. 1) I do not have the B&C alternator controller with overvolage protection built in. Instead I am using a regulator (VR-166) and for overvoltage protection, I am using your overvoltage protection module. It is wired exactly as the directions show that came with the module. (actually my regulator is wired like it says on that same set of directions from the overvoltage protection module). 2) I am using a push button for starting instead of the toggle switches for the mags 3) I have an electronic ignition on the right side and a mag on the left side I think items 2 and 3 have nothing at all to do with my problem and I don't see how item one does either but perhaps you will school me on why it does. Problem: My ammeter was reading strangely when I had the shunt installed in the B lead of the alternator in series with the 80 amp fuse. I sent you a note at that time and you started to help me understand it. Since then I bowed to the pressures of the locals and moved my shunt. They proclaimed that it was being used as a load meter instead of an ammeter and it wasn't a good location for it anyways. I realize now that I should have just stayed with you to figure out my problem but was anxious to do anything to get the plane ready. (big mistake!!) Now I have the shunt located between the output of the battery contactor and the main bus (in the 4 AWG wire). This seemed to take care of the erroneous readings. Now the airplane is flying!! First flight was on Saturday!! The ammeter problem has come back to bite me. when I first start the plane the ammeter is right in the midle (no fluctuation) as I add loads it deflects in the negative direction a little bit but not much at all. As I fly ( no lights or strobes on...just radios etc.) the ammeter goes more and more negative until it pegs at -40 amps. I thought I was running off of the battery alone and it would surely be dead ( but...I had nothing on that would draw 40 amps even collectively!). The next day I was fully expecting a dead battery but to my amazement the plane started very strongly. Some troubleshooting showed that perhaps I had a loose alternator belt although it didn't make sense since I had a voltage reading of 13.8 volts on the voltmeter. I tightened it and went flying again but had the same result. Keep in mind that my voltmeter is always reading about 13.8 volts while the engine is running and shows the battery voltage of 12 volts when the plane is not running (I haven't checked the "not" running condition of the battery since my second flight) Sorry for the long post but I wanted to give you some backround. If you tell me to move the shunt, I will. I will also just stay with you now until this problem is solved if you are willing to help. The locals have caused me (actually it was my decision to ultimately do that) to stray from your advice which I respect. Please help me out.....don Don Nowakowski , Equipment Engineering Tech Telephone (802)288-3359, "The Laws of Aerodynamics are unforgiving and the ground is hard." Michael Collins (1987) ________________________________________________________________________________ Message-ID: <005201c1453f$b616faa0$0200a8c0@jayeandscott>
From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)home.com>
Subject: Wingtip comm antenna
Date: Sep 24, 2001
I'm aware of the Bob Archer type antenna for the wingtip of the RV's. What I'm wondering is how just bolting a bent-whip type antenna onto the vertical portion of the tip rib ( at least giving it some ground plane) would work. I realize the polarization would be off by 90 degrees but how much would it really affect reception/transmission and would it affect the SWR enough to be detrimental to the transmitter? Radio seems to work the same whether the airplane is upright or in a bank with a bellymount. Has anyone done this? Scott in Vancouver RV-6 finish kit+ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 24, 2001
Subject: EL Cockpit Lighting
Message-ID: <20010924.203755.-263081.0.czechsix(at)juno.com>
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Bob (or anyone else who wants to jump in), I am considering using electroluminescent lighting in my RV-8A cockpit. Specifically, there's a brand-name called "Flatlite" that can be obtained in almost any shape or size, and all the colors of the rainbow. The distributor I've been talking to is at http://beingseentechnologies.goemerchant2.com. My intent is to get a 2" x 24" strip (blue, green, or white.....haven't decided which color yet) and stick it to the underside of my glareshield. It won't be directly visible when seated in the cockpit, but it will cast a soft glow down on the panel. This seems to be an ideal way to light the panel with a minimum of glare on the panel or canopy. The product is dimmable by varying the input voltage from 12 VDC down to 7 VDC (after which it shuts off). Now for my question: the Flatlite kit uses an inverter which takes in the aformentioned DC and converts it to 280 VAC at 850 Hz. Do you think that this could cause noise or interference problems with the audio, or any other system? The tech rep I talked to did not think it would be an issue if grounded correctly at the firewall, based on experience with cars and boats. Any other input on this subject.....anyone who's tried it....any problems or gotchas.....speak up before I send my $65. Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, IA RV-8A fuselage... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Private" <rhinorob(at)home.com>
Subject: EL Cockpit Lighting
Date: Sep 24, 2001
Message-ID: Hello Mark, These are the lights you'll be interested in specifically for aircraft: http://www.aeroenhancements.com/ Regards, Rhino Rob http://e-club.cc/velocity/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of czechsix(at)juno.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 9:36 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EL Cockpit Lighting Bob (or anyone else who wants to jump in), I am considering using electroluminescent lighting in my RV-8A cockpit. Specifically, there's a brand-name called "Flatlite" that can be obtained in almost any shape or size, and all the colors of the rainbow. The distributor I've been talking to is at http://beingseentechnologies.goemerchant2.com. My intent is to get a 2" x 24" strip (blue, green, or white.....haven't decided which color yet) and stick it to the underside of my glareshield. It won't be directly visible when seated in the cockpit, but it will cast a soft glow down on the panel. This seems to be an ideal way to light the panel with a minimum of glare on the panel or canopy. The product is dimmable by varying the input voltage from 12 VDC down to 7 VDC (after which it shuts off). Now for my question: the Flatlite kit uses an inverter which takes in the aformentioned DC and converts it to 280 VAC at 850 Hz. Do you think that this could cause noise or interference problems with the audio, or any other system? The tech rep I talked to did not think it would be an issue if grounded correctly at the firewall, based on experience with cars and boats. Any other input on this subject.....anyone who's tried it....any problems or gotchas.....speak up before I send my $65. Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, IA RV-8A fuselage... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 24, 2001
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
Message-Id: <200109250228.f8P2SIQ00425(at)matronics.com> -0004f7-00 Message-ID: <003501c1456a$ab65a5e0$72120142@ks.sprintbbd.net>
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EL Cockpit Lighting Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:34:57 -0500 One of the challenges of lighting your panel with glareshield lighting is that with it so close to the panel, it leaves shadows. The top numbers on a gauge can be in the shadow depending on how far the dial is recessed into the gauge. Also, the stuff at the top gets more light than the stuff at the bottom so it isn't lit evenly. In addition, your are lighting not only the gauges, but also the panel itself. This throws more light in your eyes, making visibility outside not as good as it could be. auges with nicely done internal lighting will give you the best night lighting in the cockpit. Of course if the glareshield light is adequate, it's probably a lot cheaper. It certainly makes a nice backup light. The above arguments are what I learned when I tried to get the flight test pilot to use a little of the glareshield light in order to pass the night lighting test on a 182 panel. He refused. David Swartzendruber Wichita > > I am considering using electroluminescent lighting in my RV-8A cockpit. http://beingseentechnologies.goemerchant2.com. This seems to be an ideal way to light the panel with a > minimum of glare on the panel or canopy ________________________________________________________________________________ Message-ID: <01b101c1456c$1cffdf80$8e127d3f@paul>
From: "Paul Besing" <azpilot(at)extremezone.com>
Subject: Re: EL Cockpit Lighting
Date: Sep 24, 2001
I've got it installed in my airplane. It's the same stuff sold by Aeroenhancements, which is what I have. I do not have any noise from the installation. My panel is even backlit from this product. Have a look at my website under the panel pages and you will see it working. Also, the same power inverter will also power instrument lighting wedges sold by UMA. The color is perfect, even lighting, and very easy on the eyes. Paul Besing RV-6A N197AB Arizona http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing Flying Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software http://www.kitlog.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <czechsix(at)juno.com> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 6:36 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EL Cockpit Lighting Bob (or anyone else who wants to jump in), I am considering using electroluminescent lighting in my RV-8A cockpit. Specifically, there's a brand-name called "Flatlite" that can be obtained in almost any shape or size, and all the colors of the rainbow. The distributor I've been talking to is at http://beingseentechnologies.goemerchant2.com. My intent is to get a 2" x 24" strip (blue, green, or white.....haven't decided which color yet) and stick it to the underside of my glareshield. It won't be directly visible when seated in the cockpit, but it will cast a soft glow down on the panel. This seems to be an ideal way to light the panel with a minimum of glare on the panel or canopy. The product is dimmable by varying the input voltage from 12 VDC down to 7 VDC (after which it shuts off). Now for my question: the Flatlite kit uses an inverter which takes in the aformentioned DC and converts it to 280 VAC at 850 Hz. Do you think that this could cause noise or interference problems with the audio, or any other system? The tech rep I talked to did not think it would be an issue if grounded correctly at the firewall, based on experience with cars and boats. Any other input on this subject.....anyone who's tried it....any problems or gotchas.....speak up before I send my $65. Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, IA RV-8A fuselage... ________________________________________________________________________________ Message-ID: <001701c1456f$ff177ba0$71cdbb3f@smokin>
From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: EL Cockpit Lighting
Date: Sep 24, 2001
Paul, I want to backlight my lettering on my panel like you have. What kit or supplies did you by from Aeroenhancements? Do you think it is the same color as sold by Being Seen Tech? Ross Mickey >From: "Paul Besing" <azpilot(at)extremezone.com> > I've got it installed in my airplane. ________________________________________________________________________________ Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010925005635.04672060@dr-teeth.eucleides.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re:
> >Bob, I have an RV-6 and it is wired as shown in drawing Z1 with the >following exceptions. > >1) I do not have the B&C alternator controller with overvolage protection >built in. Instead I am using a regulator (VR-166) and for overvoltage >protection, I am using your overvoltage protection module. It is wired >exactly as the directions show that came with the module. (actually my >regulator is wired like it says on that same set of directions from the >overvoltage protection module). > >2) I am using a push button for starting instead of the toggle switches for >the mags > >3) I have an electronic ignition on the right side and a mag on the left >side > >I think items 2 and 3 have nothing at all to do with my problem and I don't >see how item one does either but perhaps you will school me on why it does. The above facts are not germane to your problem. >Problem: My ammeter was reading strangely when I had the shunt installed in >the B lead of the alternator in series with the 80 amp fuse. I sent you a >note at that time and you started to help me understand it. Since then I >bowed to the pressures of the locals and moved my shunt. They proclaimed >that it was being used as a load meter instead of an ammeter and it wasn't >a good location for it anyways. I realize now that I should have just >stayed with you to figure out my problem but was anxious to do anything to >get the plane ready. (big mistake!!) > >Now I have the shunt located between the output of the battery contactor >and the main bus (in the 4 AW wire). When placed as shown in the Z-drawings, the ammeter does indeed perform as an alternator loadmeter. When placed in the main bus feedline the ammeter is TRYIN to behave as a battery ammeter (minus-0-plus indication) . . . HOWEVER, for this to work, the alternator b-lead feeder has to be moved to the main bus. Dumping alternator output to the battery with the shortest possible length of fat wire was the first goal of low-noise system design (they do this on the Bonanzas these days) . . . which means that the battery ammeter type of operation can no longer be achieved. Hence, the move to alternator loadmeter operation of the ammeter. >This seemed to take care of the erroneous readings. Now the airplane is >flying!! First flight was on Saturday!! The ammeter problem has come back >to bite me. when I first start the plane the ammeter is right in the midle >(no fluctuation) as I add loads it deflects in the negative direction a >little bit but not much at all. As I fly ( no lights or strobes on...just >radios etc.) the ammeter goes more and more negative until it pegs at -40 >amps. I thought I was running off of the battery alone and it would surely >be dead ( but...I had nothing on that would draw 40 amps even >collectively!). The next day I was fully expecting a dead battery but to my >amazement the plane started very strongly. > > Some troubleshooting showed that perhaps I had a loose alternator belt >although it didn't make sense since I had a voltage reading of 13.8 volts >on the voltmeter. I tightened it and went flying again but had the same >result. Keep in mind that my voltmeter is always reading about 13.8 volts >while the engine is running and shows the battery voltage of 12 volts when >the plane is not running (I haven't checked the "not" running condition of >the battery since my second flight) > >Sorry for the long post but I wanted to give you some backround. If you >tell me to move the shunt, I will. I will also just stay with you now until >this problem is solved if you are willing to help. The locals have caused >me (actually it was my decision to ultimately do that) to stray from your No, the ammeter is presently wired to see current flow in one direction only . . . since the alternator b-lead is in the wrong place to make the instrument read in a positive direction. Sounds like there's nothing wrong with the system, the indications you are describing are understandable and predictable. . . . . advice which I respect. Please help me out.....don No problem Don. Your local friendly advice wasn't terribly accurate . . . an ammeter wired as a battery ammeter -OR- loadmeter can provide useful data. Most of the Pipers and Beechcraft products are certified with loadmeter (my preference) . . . only the Cessnas were produced in large quantities with battery ammeters. You have two choices . . . make your system look like a production aircraft and move the b-lead feeder into the cabin and attache to the main bus -OR- rewire as per the original drawings whereupon you will see only the load on the alternator . . . if you have a minus-0-plus instrument, see if you can trade it in for one that reads 0 to full scale . . . otherwise, just be aware that the instrument will always read only in the upper half of the scale . . . If it were MY airplane, it would be wired per one of the Z-figs . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Besing" <azpilot(at)extremezone.com>
Subject: Re: EL Cockpit Lighting
Date: Sep 25, 2001
Steve Davis {(901) 526-0491} can get you the stuff cheaper than Aero Enhancements. Not to mention, Aero Enhancements doesn't really sell it on an everyday basis. I had to talk him into it. Steve works with the distributor of the product, on an OEM basis for installation in his panels. He should be able to get you some, as well as a power supply. Paul Besing RV-6A N197AB Arizona http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing Flying Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software http://www.kitlog.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EL Cockpit Lighting Paul, I want to backlight my lettering on my panel like you have. What kit or supplies did you by from Aeroenhancements? Do you think it is the same color as sold by Being Seen Tech? Ross Mickey >From: "Paul Besing" <azpilot(at)extremezone.com> > I've got it installed in my airplane. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: EL Cockpit Lighting
Date: Sep 25, 2001
Thanks, Paul. I have been emailing Steve about backlighting and he never mentioned his OEM connection. Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Besing" <azpilot(at)extremezone.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EL Cockpit Lighting > > Steve Davis {(901) 526-0491} can get you the stuff cheaper than Aero > Enhancements. Not to mention, Aero Enhancements doesn't really sell it on > an everyday basis. I had to talk him into it. > > Steve works with the distributor of the product, on an OEM basis for > installation in his panels. He should be able to get you some, as well as a > power supply. > > Paul Besing > RV-6A N197AB Arizona > http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing > Flying > Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software > http://www.kitlog.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EL Cockpit Lighting > > > Paul, > > I want to backlight my lettering on my panel like you have. What kit or > supplies did you by from Aeroenhancements? Do you think it is the same > color as sold by Being Seen Tech? > > Ross Mickey > > >From: "Paul Besing" <azpilot(at)extremezone.com> > > I've got it installed in my airplane. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dave ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: alternator question
Date: Sep 25, 2001
What is bootstrapping in relation to alternators? Dave Ford ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: alternator question
> >What is bootstrapping in relation to alternators? A curious usage of the term. There are other circuits where the term bootstrap or its derivations are used but I've not heard it applied to alternators. Perhaps the writer is referring to an ability (or lack thereof) to self-excite . . . that is, get on-line without the aid of a battery. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Flickering
>Bob, >What is the indication of a shorted or open diode in the alternator ? >My lights are "flickering" and the volt-ammeter is showing +/- 5volts-3amps >movement. > thanks, > JerryB Jerry, This is a common problem and it's generally not associated with an alternator problem . . . although it could be worn brushes. But first: My favorite diagnosis tool for this condition is a $15.00 generic Ford regulator with 24" clipleads on the B, F and ground terminals. Unhook the alternator's F terminal from ship's wiring and temporarily hook the test regulator right to the back of the alternator. Alternatively, hook a wire from the alternator's b-lead (main power output terminal) to the regulator's field power input lead. Leave the alternator switch off or pull the alternator field breaker. If the alternator comes up stable then this is the most likely scenario: A regulator is a servo system. It looks at the bus and steers the field current of an alternator to maintain the desired bus voltage set point. The regulator gets its information about bus voltage through the same pathway as the field supply current. On some production airplanes, this pathway has upwards of 20 ohmic joints (wire crimps, closed contacts in switches, solder joint, mated contacts in plugs, etc.) in addition to perhaps 5-10 feet of 20AWG wire with a resistance of about 10 milliohms per foot. Aging of the ohmic joints raises their electrical resistance. No single joint contributes a lot but all totaled up, the supply circuit resistance can exceed 100 milliohms. Now, field current will vary normally between .5 and 4 amps depending on RPM and system loads. With a 4 amp load and 100 milliohms of resistance in the regulator's sense lead, the regulator's best guess about bus voltage may be in error by 400 millivolts or more. Worse yet, as the regulator INCREASES field current in an attempt to raise bus voltage, part of the true increase is masked by an INCREASED LOSS of voltage along the sense lead due to field current. This causes the regulator to lag behind reality and in extreme cases, induces a bus voltage chasing mode with symptoms much as you have described. TWO FIXES: (1) change the regulator out for one that has voltage sense leads that are independent of the field supply current. This has to be done by at least a 337 effort and at worst, an STC. (2) do a total refurbishment of all items in the field supply pathway starting with the breaker and carrying it all the way to the regulator. This includes all connectors, switches, ov relays, etc., etc. Many owners have reported that replacing the master switch fixed the problem. In fact, changing one of many parts contributing to the problem reduced the resistance enough to make the system stable again. However, the problem will return in spite of a reasonably good master switch because the switch and all the rest of the components continue to age - driving total resistance past the lower limit for stability. If you replace EVERYTHING, the system should stay stable for another 20 years or so. This problem is worst in older airplanes and is a function of age. Total refurbishment brings the resistance back down to as-new levels. If the regulator experiments don't help, then the mostly likely problem is alternator brushes. Diode failures don't generally cause system instability . . . they just degrade the altenrator's ability to deliver maximum rated output. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2001
From: Bill Irvine <wgirvine(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: EL panel lighting
> From: czechsix(at)juno.com > I am considering using electroluminescent lighting > in my RV-8A cockpit... (could) this could cause noise or interference problems..? --Mark Navratil Mark, a little over a year ago I installed the Aero Enhancements system in a customer's Cessna 182. The installation was very simple, and the aircraft owner has been very pleased with the unit... no noise or other problems. The glareshield on this model is fairly deep, so by mounting the light strip at the extreme aft edge I was able to prevent most of the shadowing of the gauges. His panel is flat black, so he does not have the problem of the light bouncing back into his eyes. A white panel might be a different story. It's not perfect, the lower gauges are slighter harder to read than the upper gauges, but on the whole a much better system than the original crappy red bulb on the ceiling. Since this was going into a certificated aircraft and the lights are not PMA'd or STC'd, I had to get a field approval. Even the FAA inspector was impressed with the unit. Hope this helps. Bill Irvine C-310 Lancaster, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michel" <michelboucher594(at)home.com>
Subject: Alternator noise
Date: Sep 26, 2001
After getting the little automotive Alternator sold by Van's Aircraft overhauled by an automotive shop a noise is heard on the new Icom panel mount com. This noise was not present there previously and it is not on the intercom when the radio is off. Is there something they missed in the alternator? Michel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: Alternator "boot-strapping"
Date: Sep 26, 2001
>>>What is bootstrapping in relation to alternators? A curious usage of the term. There are other circuits where the term bootstrap or its derivations are used but I've not heard it applied to alternators. Perhaps the writer is referring to an ability (or lack thereof) to self-excite . . . that is, get on-line without the aid of a battery.<< Yes, that is the way I have heard it used. All soft iron will retain some magnetism, so if you spin an alternator fast enough without the field being energized it will generate enough voltage because of the residual magnetism to come on line. Once that happens it can power the field itself and will work normally. On most cars with the alternator light burned out you can rev the engine to maybe 3,000 (about 6,000 rpm at the alternator) and the alternator will start to charge and then work normally. The old DC generators used this all the time to get started. On the alternators, the voltage generated has to be higher than the turn-on voltage of the stator diodes to get it going, making this method not usable for normal operation. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: alternator question
Date: Sep 26, 2001
Bob, Are you aware of any aircraft ever having an alternator that could self-excite? David Swartzendruber Wichita >What is bootstrapping in relation to alternators? A curious usage of the term. There are other circuits where the term bootstrap or its derivations are used but I've not heard it applied to alternators. Perhaps the writer is referring to an ability (or lack thereof) to self-excite . . . that is, get on-line without the aid of a battery. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Alternator noise
Date: Sep 26, 2001
My guess is that it is something that they did not miss, the diodes. They probably replaced the diode stack with a new assy that has noisier diodes. David Swartzendruber Wichita >After getting the little automotive Alternator sold by Van's Aircraft >overhauled by an automotive shop a noise is heard on the new Icom panel >mount com. This noise was not present there previously and it is not on the >intercom when the radio is off. Is there something they missed in the >alternator? > >Michel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2001
From: wx3o <wx3o(at)flash.net>
Subject: Re: alternator question
David, The alternators in the C-130E are self exiting. There is actually a very small permanent magnet alternator wound coaxially with the larger (30KVA) alternator. One on each engine, so 120 KVA power altogether. The generator switch has a "field trip " position to kill the output of this monster. Best Regards Mark Julicher USAF Ret. Former C-130 pilot. David Swartzendruber wrote: > > Bob, > > Are you aware of any aircraft ever having an alternator that could > self-excite? > > David Swartzendruber > Wichita > > >What is bootstrapping in relation to alternators? > > A curious usage of the term. There are other circuits > where the term bootstrap or its derivations are used > but I've not heard it applied to alternators. Perhaps > the writer is referring to an ability (or lack thereof) > to self-excite . . . that is, get on-line without > the aid of a battery. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
From: "Donald Nowakowski" <nowakod(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2001
09/26/2001 12:54:57 PM Bob, I can't thank you enough for your help. I think I actually understand what is happening now. I am going to move the Shunt back to the location it shows in the Z1 drawing. At least I can fly tonight without worry and move the shunt on a rainy day. While I am under the panel doing the wiring, is there an easy way to wire a light in that will tell me if my Alternator has failed? I should probably look through your book again before asking these questions???? Thank you again for your help. I truly appreciate it......don > > . . . . advice which I respect. Please help me out.....don No problem Don. Your local friendly advice wasn't terribly accurate . . . an ammeter wired as a battery ammeter -OR- loadmeter can provide useful data. Most of the Pipers and Beechcraft products are certified with loadmeter (my preference) . . . only the Cessnas were produced in large quantities with battery ammeters. You have two choices . . . make your system look like a production aircraft and move the b-lead feeder into the cabin and attache to the main bus -OR- rewire as per the original drawings whereupon you will see only the load on the alternator . . . if you have a minus-0-plus instrument, see if you can trade it in for one that reads 0 to full scale . . . otherwise, just be aware that the instrument will always read only in the upper half of the scale . . . If it were MY airplane, it would be wired per one of the Z-figs . . . Bob . . . Don Nowakowski , Equipment Engineering Tech Telephone (802)288-3359, "The Laws of Aerodynamics are unforgiving and the ground is hard." Michael Collins (1987) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Alternator "boot-strapping"
Date: Sep 26, 201
Gary Casey wrote: > > Yes, that is the way I have heard it used. All soft iron will retain some > magnetism, so if you spin an alternator fast enough without the field being > energized it will generate enough voltage because of the residual magnetism > to come on line. *** And then there are permanent magnet alternators, which don't require any excitation at all. I wouldn't want one of these in an airplane, though. The permanent magnet armature is challenging to do right from an engineering perspective - you have a structure of magnets glued together. And there's a lot of centrifugal force acting on those magnets to try and force them out. I had a Norton motorcycle with such an alternator, and "magnet creep" was a known problem. It sometimes resulted in the alternator stator being torn from its mountings, and the wire harness being sucked into the alternator case! This never happened to mine, but... ....I had a tiny Coleman Powermate generator that had a similar permanent magnet rotor, and the magnets did indeed come loose. Made a proper hash of the alternator, and pretty much turned the whole generator into a lump of garbage. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) Once that happens it can power the field itself and will > work normally. On most cars with the alternator light burned out you can > rev the engine to maybe 3,000 (about 6,000 rpm at the alternator) and the > alternator will start to charge and then work normally. The old DC > generators used this all the time to get started. On the alternators, the > voltage generated has to be higher than the turn-on voltage of the stator > diodes to get it going, making this method not usable for normal operation. > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Brick" <jbrick(at)wolfenet.com>
Subject: Essential Bus Tie
Date: Sep 26, 2001
Bob, Any problem if the rectifier diode array on fig. Z-1 was replaced with a dpdt (on - off- on) bus tie switch that would function as avionics master in up position and essential buss in down position? Avionics on essential bus. Thanks, jb RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2001
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Loose dynamo rotor magnets was Alternator
"boot-strapping" jerry(at)tr2.com wrote: > > Gary Casey wrote: > > > > Yes, that is the way I have heard it used. All soft iron will retain some > > magnetism, so if you spin an alternator fast enough without the field being > > energized it will generate enough voltage because of the residual magnetism > > to come on line. > *** And then there are permanent magnet alternators, which don't require > any excitation at all. > > I wouldn't want one of these in an airplane, though. The permanent magnet > armature is challenging to do right from an engineering perspective - you > have a structure of magnets glued together. And there's a lot of > centrifugal force acting on those magnets to try and force them out. > > I had a Norton motorcycle with such an alternator, and "magnet creep" was > a known problem. It sometimes resulted in the alternator stator being torn > from its mountings, and the wire harness being sucked into the alternator > case! This never happened to mine, but... > > ....I had a tiny Coleman Powermate generator that had a similar permanent > magnet rotor, and the magnets did indeed come loose. Made a proper hash of > the alternator, and pretty much turned the whole generator into a lump of > garbage. > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) Jerry, I used to own a European motorcycle repair shop. Most instances of magnet creep in the Lucas alternators was "owner induced", usually by installing it with an "extra large" hammer. (Nothing is fool proof to a sufficiently talented fool) When installed properly, these things stayed together for many, many years. In 10 years in business, I only saw about 8 of those rotor assemblies with loose magnets. Every instance was due to improper installation. A more common problem was partially demagnetized rotors. This usually was found on bikes over 15 years of age. It was the leading cause of poor alternator output. Charlie Kuss RV-8A fuselage waiting till the heat dies down next month to start working on it again Boca Raton, Fl. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dave ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: bootstrapping
Date: Sep 26, 2001
Bob, The question came up when I mentioned to an engineer that I was thinking about using the SD-8 alternator as a backup source without a battery but with a large capacitor/filter. He asked if it would be able to "bootstrap" to the system if turned on when there was a large demand for current. In these terms does the SD-8 meet this challenge in this configuration? Dave Ford ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD <John.Livingston(at)wpafb.af.mil>
Subject: EL Cockpit Lighting
Date: Sep 27, 2001
Mark, All, You might want to check out http://www.e-lite.com/news.htm They manufacture the stuff and have some nice sample kits, power supplies for 12 volt systems etc. John -----Original Message----- From: czechsix(at)juno.com [mailto:czechsix(at)juno.com] Subject: AeroElectric-List: EL Cockpit Lighting Bob (or anyone else who wants to jump in), I am considering using electroluminescent lighting in my RV-8A cockpit. Specifically, there's a brand-name called "Flatlite" that can be obtained in almost any shape or size, and all the colors of the rainbow. The distributor I've been talking to is at http://beingseentechnologies.goemerchant2.com. My intent is to get a 2" x 24" strip (blue, green, or white.....haven't decided which color yet) and stick it to the underside of my glareshield. It won't be directly visible when seated in the cockpit, but it will cast a soft glow down on the panel. This seems to be an ideal way to light the panel with a minimum of glare on the panel or canopy. The product is dimmable by varying the input voltage from 12 VDC down to 7 VDC (after which it shuts off). Now for my question: the Flatlite kit uses an inverter which takes in the aformentioned DC and converts it to 280 VAC at 850 Hz. Do you think that this could cause noise or interference problems with the audio, or any other system? The tech rep I talked to did not think it would be an issue if grounded correctly at the firewall, based on experience with cars and boats. Any other input on this subject.....anyone who's tried it....any problems or gotchas.....speak up before I send my $65. Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, IA RV-8A fuselage... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: E-Bus Feed Diode S401-25
> >> When installing Bob's recommended S401-25 Diode to feed the emergency bus >> from a main fuseblock, do I need to insulate the two unused terminals on >the >> diode? Are they hot just sitting there? You can cover them with heatshrink or just snip them off with a big pair of wire cutters . . . the former is probably better . . . less likely to damage the diode. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Larger Wire Ends
> >I've bought a bunch of ring terminals for attaching the large supply lines >from the master contactor onto the fuse blocks. These are red in color but >larger than yellow and won't fit in my crimper. Can I cut off the insulation >and solder the wires in using the same technique as Bob recommends for the >big wires? See: >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf >I believe the wires are 8 guage. You betcha . . . if it were my airplane, that's exactly what I would do. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: bootstrapping
> >Bob, > >The question came up when I mentioned to an engineer that I was thinking >about using the SD-8 alternator as a backup source without a battery but >with a large capacitor/filter. He asked if it would be able to >"bootstrap" to the system if turned on when there was a large demand for >current. In these terms does the SD-8 meet this challenge in this >configuration? > >Dave Ford The SD-8 needs a battery to come on line . . . in its present configuration, it does not self-excite. However, once activated, the capacitor installed along with it will serve as a smoothing device and the system will run fine without a battery. regulator/rectifier design to make the system come up sans battery. It could be done. Unless the SD-8 is the ONLY source of power in the airplane, there's no reason to require the little alternator to run "barefoot". Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Essential Bus Tie
> >Bob, > >Any problem if the rectifier diode array on fig. Z-1 was replaced with a >dpdt (on - off- on) bus tie switch that would function as avionics master in >up position and essential buss in down position? Avionics on essential bus. > >Thanks, The need for an avionics master switch went away about 20 years ago . . . however, you can have one by adding a switch in series prevents inadvertent feeding of the main bus from the e-bus should you have the switches in the wrong positions . . . The goal is to avoid being a systems analyst and concentrate on being a pilot until you're on the ground. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator "boot-strapping"
> >Gary Casey wrote: >> >> Yes, that is the way I have heard it used. All soft iron will retain some >> magnetism, so if you spin an alternator fast enough without the field being >> energized it will generate enough voltage because of the residual magnetism >> to come on line. A few alternators of the wound-field variety will come up without a battery but it's not consistent and it's not a feature designed into any alternator that I'm aware of. I've often wondered why the manufacturers don't put a small neo-iron magnet in the field assembly to INSURE a minimum amount of magnetic bias to insure startup. >*** And then there are permanent magnet alternators, which don't require >any excitation at all. > > I wouldn't want one of these in an airplane, though. The permanent magnet >armature is challenging to do right from an engineering perspective - you >have a structure of magnets glued together. And there's a lot of >centrifugal force acting on those magnets to try and force them out. The PM alternators have been used successfully in airplanes venture into the amateur built aviation products . . it was the project that brought Bill and I together. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re:
> >Bob, I can't thank you enough for your help. I think I actually understand >what is happening now. >I am going to move the Shunt back to the location it shows in the Z1 >drawing. At least I can fly tonight without worry and move the shunt on a >rainy day. >While I am under the panel doing the wiring, is there an easy way to wire a >light in that will tell me if my Alternator has failed? I should probably >look through your book again before asking these questions???? > >Thank you again for your help. I truly appreciate it......don No problem, that's what we're here for. The low voltage warning light is the BEST single indicator of alternator failure. I'm going to try to do an article for a do-it-yerself device. You can also buy one from B&C . . . I think it's on their own web-catalog. Call Todd at 316.283.8000 if you're interested in this device. It's a design I did for them about 10 years ago and needs to be updated but it works fine. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Alternator noise
> >My guess is that it is something that they did not miss, the diodes. They >probably replaced the diode stack with a new assy that has noisier diodes. > >David Swartzendruber >Wichita > > >>After getting the little automotive Alternator sold by Van's Aircraft >>overhauled by an automotive shop a noise is heard on the new Icom panel >>mount com. This noise was not present there previously and it is not on the >>intercom when the radio is off. Is there something they missed in the >>alternator? >> >>Michel I agree with Dave in that this is a possiblity. There is a variation in the conduction characteristics of diodes that can make some nosier than others. This variation in noise emission will be in the RADIO FREQUENCY range . . .it's not a major change to the ripple noise present in all alternators. If the noise goes up and down in volume as you adjust the radio's volume control but cannot be heard when the squelch control is closed, then the noise is coming in through the antenna and CAN be filtered at the alternator. B&C has filters for this task. If the noise is there all the time irrespective of volume control position, then try operating the radio from a separate battery. If the noise goes away, then it's coming in through the power line to the radio. In this case you need a filter. Take a peek at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/filter/filter.html Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: alternator question
> >Bob, > >Are you aware of any aircraft ever having an alternator that could >self-excite? > >David Swartzendruber >Wichita Yes, in fact, there is a REQUIREMENT in the acceptance test procedure for alternators on the Bonanza to self excite . . . but funny thing, that requirement never got handed down to the procurement specification. in our shops for self excitation and the manufacturer had never signed up to the requirement. Had a batch come in a few months ago that wouldn't self excite . . . big fuss was raised. Don't know how that came out. Everybody had a good reason to point fingers at everybody else. ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: re: Flickering
>> >>Thanks for the reply..I forgot to mention that this is a RV6 experimental >>and is 10 years >>old with 1130 hours (this started about 30 hours ago). I think I'll try for >>a new regulator. Can you recommend one as you discussed that I can buy at a >>auto parts store. > > > VR166 from about any store . . . HOWEVER, given the age of your > system, I'd check over the condition of wiring and all other > components between the bus and your present regulator. Aging > of joints raises resistance. Resistance, even very small values > can upset ANY regulator . . . your regulator MAY be fine. Replacing > it MAY fix your problem . . . temporarily. But it will come back > in a whole lot less than 1100 hours if the sense path resistance > is not returned to as-new condition. > Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Getting WAAAaaayyyy behind . . .
I've been getting behind in service to many of our customers who are waiting for books and radios. Raytheon has been requesting a lot of my attention lately. We just finished the installation of recovery parachutes on the new Hawker Horizon. Worked steady 12 hr days on it since last Thursday. All I have left to do is a little paperwork and build a stomp shield for some of the wiring. Got to watch a high speed taxi deployment of both chutes Tuesday . . . pretty impressive. However, the balls-to-the-wall effort has put some other RAC programs behind in addition to my after-hours activities for the 'Connection. Given that Mr. Raytheon pays the bills around here, I'm sure you'll all understand why I've been less than diligent in servicing my fun projects. Thank you all for your patience. Rev 10 is still stumbling along and I think it will be worth the wait. I think I can get all the radio orders out tomorrow. I'm still waiting on my stocking shipment of MicroAir transponders. I'll rattle their cage today too. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: alternator question
Date: Sep 27, 2001
Bob, Does the acceptance test procedure insure that the alternator will self-excite when installed in the aircraft also? David Wichita > >Bob, > >Are you aware of any aircraft ever having an alternator that could >self-excite? > >David Swartzendruber >Wichita Yes, in fact, there is a REQUIREMENT in the acceptance test procedure for alternators on the Bonanza to self excite . . . but funny thing, that requirement never got handed down to the procurement specification. in our shops for self excitation and the manufacturer had never signed up to the requirement. Had a batch come in a few months ago that wouldn't self excite . . . big fuss was raised. Don't know how that came out. Everybody had a good reason to point fingers at everybody else. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com>
Subject: Wire selection
Date: Sep 27, 2001
Hi Bob, 1) I plan to hook up a 1.5amp interior light with my nav light switch. Does the wire to the 1.5amp light have to handle the full rating for the whole circuit or just the 1.5amps? 2) My panel dimmer only has one outlet. I plan on wiring up 4 items that will not exceed the dimmer rating. What method do you recommend to get power to all 4 items? I was considering the piggybacks like I used on the shielded wires. Thank You Again, Ed Perry eperry(at)san.rr.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Larger Wire Ends
Date: Sep 27, 2001
Hi again Bob, Page 3 on your link does not show up and it looks like that is the good stuff. Ed Perry eperry(at)san.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Larger Wire Ends > > > > >I've bought a bunch of ring terminals for attaching the large supply lines > >from the master contactor onto the fuse blocks. These are red in color but > >larger than yellow and won't fit in my crimper. Can I cut off the insulation > >and solder the wires in using the same technique as Bob recommends for the > >big wires? See: > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf > >I believe the wires are 8 guage. > > You betcha . . . if it were my airplane, that's exactly > what I would do. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------------- > ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) > ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) > ( - Epictetus ) > ---------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Larger Wire Ends
> >Hi again Bob, > >Page 3 on your link does not show up and it looks like that is the good >stuff. >Ed Perry This is an old article and I notice that the earlier version of Acrobat compiled it in black/white. I've re-compiled it in color with Acrobat 5.0. When I tried to access it though both Netscape and IE5.0 . . . Acrobat Reader would lock up after page 2 in viewing it. However, downloading the disk and opening chromatic glory Go to the articles page and right click the link for downloading to hard drive. THEN open it for view or printing. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: Re: Larger Wire Ends
Date: Sep 27, 2001
Sounds like you have the same problem I have been having, but I have one addl problem. When I get to the file, I cannot download the file! Not always but often enough to make things difficult. I can do on every other web site on the WWW except yours and it always works just fine. Usually it is a file I try to get from a link in a email and when that does not work I go to your site and work down and its either not there or again no right click to download the file. Only a comment as its seems to be some inherent issue with some computer configurations and your web host. Old news and no solution ever found. Paul - > >Page 3 on your link does not show up and it looks like that is the good >stuff. >Ed Perry This is an old article and I notice that the earlier version of Acrobat compiled it in black/white. I've re-compiled it in color with Acrobat 5.0. When I tried to access it though both Netscape and IE5.0 . . . Acrobat Reader would lock up after page 2 in viewing it. However, downloading the disk and opening chromatic glory Go to the articles page and right click the link for downloading to hard drive. THEN open it for view or printing. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: alternator question
> >Bob, >Does the acceptance test procedure insure that the alternator will >self-excite when installed in the aircraft also? >David >Wichita Beats me . . . I'm not even sure that that the pilots have a self-excitation test on their checklist to buy off a new airplane. I'll call around and ask. At one time, Beech asked me to be sure that one of my new regulator designs would not prevent a Bonanza's alternator from coming on line by itself . . . I demonstrated it on the test stand. I just assumed at that time (about 20 years ago) that the alternator was DESIGNED to self excite. I guess I'm finding out now that it's a purely happenstance feature of the product Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wire selection
> >Hi Bob, > >1) I plan to hook up a 1.5amp interior light with my nav light switch. >Does the wire to the 1.5amp light have to handle the full rating for the >whole circuit or just the 1.5amps? Why hook it to the nav lights circuit? I presume the light will still have its own switch. Are you trying to be sure that the light is out when the nav lights are off? Your hypothesis is correct . . . EVERY wire downstream of a protection device needs to be sized to that device irrespective of the true load. What you could do is come off a 7 or 10A fuse to nav lights switch. Wire lights with 20 or 18 AWG wire. Attach to nav lights switch with 24AWG fusible link that protects 20AWG wire running off to the interior light switch. But it still begs the question, why not give the overhead light it's own switch that gets a good post flight inspection along with all other switches? >2) My panel dimmer only has one outlet. I plan on wiring up 4 items that >will not exceed the dimmer rating. What method do you recommend to get >power to all 4 items? I was considering the piggybacks like I used on >the shielded wires. Use a butt splice to bring as many wires together as needed. In this case, a pair of 22AWG wires into one end of a red splice would connect to three 22AWG wires in the other end. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Alternator "boot-strapping"
Date: Sep 28, 201
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > >*** And then there are permanent magnet alternators, which don't require > >any excitation at all. > > > > I wouldn't want one of these in an airplane, though. The permanent magnet > >armature is challenging to do right from an engineering perspective - you > >have a structure of magnets glued together. And there's a lot of > >centrifugal force acting on those magnets to try and force them out. > > > The PM alternators have been used successfully in airplanes > venture into the amateur built aviation products . . it was > the project that brought Bill and I together. > *** Those must be sterner stuff than then my Powermate generator. It seemed like such a good idea when I bought it - a little 2-stroke motor turning a PM alternator that provided gobs of 12V to a built-in 1000W inverter. Plus a microprocessor feedback thingie to regulate the throttle. Take your power as 900W of AC, or 80A DC, and the whole thing weighed less than 30 pounds One day the throttle stuck, the motor revved up, and then it just stopped. They had glued the magnets around the perimeter of the rotor. Stupid. The generator is in bits & pieces up in my garage. - Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
Subject: Re: Bob's Shop Notes: Comm antenna.
From: Joel Harding <dsl10driver(at)ev1.net>
I'm in the process of mounting my com antenna on the bottom of the fuselage with a doubler on the inside. My question is, since I don't understand ground planes, do you prime between the layers for corrosion or leave bare metal for better contact, or am I wasting my time with totally irrelevant minutia? Joel Harding ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KahnSG(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 28, 2001
Subject: RE:voltage light
Bob: How about a schematic for a voltage sensing device using 3 diodes (red-green-yellow)? Similar to the voltage indicators that you plug into the cigarette lighter. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator "boot-strapping"
> > The PM alternators have been used successfully in airplanes > venture into the amateur built aviation products . . it was > the project that brought Bill and I together. Looks like my fingers got 20 words ahead of my brain . . . What I meant to say was that PM alternators have been used on MANY machines including airplanes for decades. I first met Bill B when he came into our offices at Electro-Mech asking to buy a casting we made for our own vacuum pump driven generator. My boss agreed to let him have the parts and the SD-8 vacuum pump driven alternator was launched. This was about 1983. I'll check with Bill but I'm reasonably certain he's never seen a case of magnet de-bonding on this particular product. If I find out otherwise, I'll post the data here. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Comm antenna.
> >I'm in the process of mounting my com antenna on the bottom of the fuselage >with a doubler on the inside. My question is, since I don't understand >ground planes, do you prime between the layers for corrosion or leave bare >metal for better contact, or am I wasting my time with totally irrelevant >minutia? > >Joel Harding The doubler should be of sheet copper or brass . . . brass preferred. The ground plane can be fabricated from strips of copper foil . . . approx 1" wide and radiating out from the doubler. Solder the ends of the strips to the doubler. Make them 22" long measured from center of doubler. It's okay if they bend along interior contours. Minimum number is 4 radials, no measurable additional benefits beyond 8 radials. If you have a graphite fuselage, I'd put paint the inside surface of each radial track with a layer of clear epoxy and let it set up. Then stick the radials down over the layer of epoxy. If it's a fiberglas airplane, the radials can lay right on the structure. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Larger Wire Ends
> >Sounds like you have the same problem I have been having, but I have one >addl problem. When I get to the file, I cannot download the file! Not always >but often enough to make things difficult. > >I can do on every other web site on the WWW except yours and it always works >just fine. Usually it is a file I try to get from a link in a email and >when that does not work I go to your site and work down and its either not >there or again no right click to download the file. > >Only a comment as its seems to be some inherent issue with some computer >configurations and your web host. Old news and no solution ever found. > >Paul You may be right . . . not my field of expertise . . . just http://209.134.106.21/big_term.pdf This is an experimental server I have here in Wichita. I put it up to give some friends of mine a "sandbox" to learn networking skills . . . see if it downloads Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: RE:voltage light
> >Bob: >How about a schematic for a voltage sensing device using 3 diodes >(red-green-yellow)? >Similar to the voltage indicators that you plug into the cigarette lighter. > >Steve This makes it much more complicated . . . the goal is to warn of a discrete event . . . alternator failure as evidenced by bus voltage drop below 13.0 . . . if you want to be aware of OTHER voltage conditions, a voltmeter is the way to go. There are some chips by National that will let you build a bar-graph voltmeter. see: http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM3916.pdf You can cascade these devices to drive 20 leds in a bar-graph array (get these from Digi-Key). Selection of resistors to drive the signal input pins and Rhi/Rlo will let you set up an expanded scale operation of 20 leds such that the bottom led is, say 10.5 volt (end of battery life) and the top led is 15.0 volts (max operating). This would give you approximately .25 volt resolution . . . Pretty crummy compared to $10 liquid crystal voltmeter module that gives you 0.01 volt resolution and 0.1 volt accuracy. You can get LCD modules from: http://www.allelectronics.com search on PM-128 and PM-200. The biggest advantage of bar-graph displays is that they're self illuminated for night flight . . . other than this, I think they're a waste of time. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator "boot-strapping"
> >*** Those must be sterner stuff than then my Powermate generator. It >seemed like such a good idea when I bought it - a little 2-stroke motor >turning a PM alternator that provided gobs of 12V to a built-in 1000W >inverter. Plus a microprocessor feedback thingie to regulate the throttle. > Take your power as 900W of AC, or 80A DC, and the whole thing >weighed less than 30 pounds > > One day the throttle stuck, the motor revved up, and then it just >stopped. They had glued the magnets around the perimeter of the rotor. >Stupid. The generator is in bits & pieces up in my garage. The magic of the B&C SD-8 is that the magnets are bonded to the INSIDE surface of a spinning cylinder . . . centrifugal forces put the bond in compression as opposed to tension. Rotax rotors put their bonding joints in tension and shear . . the magnets are recessed in the rotor casting and bonded on six sides . . . MUCH stouter. Bob . .. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Daniel H Kight <kightd@basf-corp.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2001
Subject: Re: Alternator "boot-strapping"
Jerry, I agree that your Powermate generator was poorly designed if they glued the magnets to the outside of the rotor. I am currently flying a Sonerai with a 20A PM alternator (from Great Plains Aircraft) that has the magnets on the inside of the rotor. The rotor is shaped like a round cake pan (or a rear brake drum on a car). The magnets are glued to the inside wall of the rotor which rotates around the fixed stator in the middle. The faster it runs, the more the magnets are held in place! Mine has worked great for 415 hours so far, and I haven't heard of one ever coming apart. I couldn't think of any practical way to mount one on a Lycoming, however. Danny Kight Anderson, SC Sonerai IILT N622DK (flying) RV-6 N722DK (filling and sanding the cowling- ready for paint in a couple of weeks!!!!!) EAA Chapter 249 VP and Young Eagle coordinator jerry(at)tr2.com on 09/28/2001 09:11:35 AM Please respond to aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com cc: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator "boot-strapping" *** Those must be sterner stuff than then my Powermate generator. It seemed like such a good idea when I bought it - a little 2-stroke motor turning a PM alternator that provided gobs of 12V to a built-in 1000W inverter. Plus a microprocessor feedback thingie to regulate the throttle. Take your power as 900W of AC, or 80A DC, and the whole thing weighed less than 30 pounds One day the throttle stuck, the motor revved up, and then it just stopped. They had glued the magnets around the perimeter of the rotor. Stupid. The generator is in bits & pieces up in my garage. - Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: alternator cooling
eing.com> >Bob, I'm planning to install a section of scat tube to air cool the >alternator (B&C L-40). On what part of the alternator should the cooling >air be preferably directed for best results? The face opposite the pulley >or the sides? Have you identified a NEED to cool? It won't hurt anything. I'd put cool air on the back side of the alternator. Check with B&C (Bill @ 316.283.8000) and see if anyone has identified a cooling problem with your proposed installation. Cooling air can be MUCH more complex than the notion of ducting some ram air though a tube to the hot spot. Differential pressures in the vicinity of the air exit can have a marked effect on the effectiveness of the air as a cooling aid. I've witnessed some cases where a builder THOUGHT he had cool air coming down the tube to rescue a hot piece of machinery when in fact, pressures at the end of the tube caused a flow of hot air to be pushed back up the tube toward what he assumed was a cool air source. If you really need to cool the alternator, then plan on doing some flight testing of temperatures to make sure the system is doing what you want it to do. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: Re: Larger Wire Ends
Date: Sep 28, 2001
Just fine here. TX Paul >Only a comment as its seems to be some inherent issue with some computer >configurations and your web host. Old news and no solution ever found. > >Paul You may be right . . . not my field of expertise . . . just http://209.134.106.21/big_term.pdf This is an experimental server I have here in Wichita. I put it up to give some friends of mine a "sandbox" to learn networking skills . . . see if it downloads Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Automatic EDITING of text
I wrote: > You may be right . . . not my field of expertise . . . just > http://209.134.106.21/big_term.pdf > > This is an experimental server I have here in Wichita. > I put it up to give some friends of mine a "sandbox" to > learn networking skills . . . see if it downloads > > Bob . . . I am noticing that my messages seem to be getting randomly truncated . . . I assumed that the first one I saw was a typing error . . . I've seen several more examples today. Are others seeing this phenomenon? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Alternator "boot-strapping"
Date: Sep 28, 201
Daniel H Kight wrote: > > > Jerry, > > I agree that your Powermate generator was poorly designed if they glued the > magnets to the outside of the rotor. > I am currently flying a Sonerai with a 20A PM alternator (from Great Plains > Aircraft) that has the magnets on the inside of the rotor. *** Now THAT I like. I can only guess that Coleman wanted the magnets as close as possible to the stator - for as cheap as possible - and thought they could get away with it. - Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Automatic EDITING of text
> I am noticing that my messages seem to be getting randomly > truncated . . . I assumed that the first one I saw was > a typing error . . . I've seen several more examples today. > > Are others seeing this phenomenon? Yes, I'm seeing this also. Bill Mills ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Too hot to work?
Date: Sep 28, 2001
> > Bill Irvine > Lancaster, CA > Home of the world's largest beach. No water, just > lots and lots of sand.... > and wind...... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Daniel H Kight <kightd@basf-corp.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2001
Subject: Re: Automatic EDITING of text
Are others seeing this phenomenon? Bob . . . Yes, I also thought it was a rash of typing errors. Danny Kight Anderson, SC Sonerai, RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Frank, Dan" <DFrank(at)dfwairport.com>
Subject: Transponder remote ident wiring
Date: Sep 28, 2001
Bob and others, I have placed an order for the new Microair Transponder. The last I heard was that delivery to the US is pending FAA sign off. While I wait, I am trying to assemble the wiring harness and connection to the encoder. The wiring diagram I have only shows one connection from the transponder to the remote ident switch. I am going to use a momentary on switch located in my Infinity stick grip. The switch has two wires. Obviously one of them goes to the wiring harness that plugs into the back of the transponder. Does the other wire go to ground or to 12V power? Thanks in advance. Dan Frank RV-8 electrical/firewall fwd ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Baycenterstore(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 28, 2001
Subject: Re: Wire selection
In a message dated 9/27/01 11:29:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, eperry(at)san.rr.com writes: << 2) My panel dimmer only has one outlet. I plan on wiring up 4 items that will not exceed the dimmer rating. What method do you recommend to get power to all 4 items? I was considering the piggybacks like I used on the shielded wires. >> Hello Ed: Look at Terminal Town's "How To Hook Multiple Wires Together" at www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page102.html for a pretty nifty way to connect several wires. Using a butt splice to attach multi wires is not such a good idea. With defference to Bob, the connector is not designed for that purpose. Best regards, SQ.J ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: mutiple wires and butt splices . . .
> > >Hello Ed: > >Look at Terminal Town's "How To Hook Multiple Wires Together" at >www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page102.html for a pretty nifty way to connect >several wires. Using a butt splice to attach multi wires is not such a good >idea. With defference to Bob, the connector is not designed for that purpose. > >Best regards, I can't speak to the intent of the designers . . . they were in their prime as engineers about 1955. I suspect many are deceased by now. I guess we've been using them badly for decades . . . it's been a common practice for a long time. One needs to size the wire and insulation grips to the TOTAL volume of wires. When you close the tool on a splice or terminal, the task is to turn the strands into a single, gas-tight entity. Whether the strands are comprised of three conductors of 22AWG, or one conductor of 18AWG, the splice and the tool have no way to know the difference. I am getting ready to qualify a power distribution system of 22AWG wire to ballast an array of 10 d-sub connector pins. 10 strands of 22AWG fit nicely into the end of a yellow butt splice. The other end gets a 10AWG wire to carry 30 amps continuous (40 amps intermittent) from the external power connector into the power distribution assembly. Solder sleeves are okay too . . . as are other solder joining techniques. I've illustrated and discussed some of these at length in: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html and . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html Used with understanding of the task to be accomplished and limitations of the materials, tools and skills available to the fabricator, there isn't a dime's worth of difference in the performance of any of these techniques. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Automatic EDITING of text
> >Are others seeing this phenomenon? > > Bob . . . > > >Yes, I also thought it was a rash of typing errors. Have you seen it on any messages other than mine? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
From: Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org>
Subject: Current Draw for heated pitot
I bought a used heated pitot from a salvage yard, it came from a Cessna172. (picture at www.liming.org/ch801/instruments.html ) It tests ok, that is it gets warm and and there is resistance, but I don't have an accurate measurement of its resistance. Can anybody tell me what the nominal load is so I can size the fuse and therefore the wire to run in the wing? Thanks, Gary Liming ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Current Draw for heated pitot
Date: Sep 28, 2001
Hi Gary, I checked out the web page you listed and I was glad to see you made good use of our panel planning web site. Cool. Anyway, check out my web page here http://bmnellis.com/pitotcurrent.htm where I documented the current draw vs. time for the 5814 pitot tube. It has the built in static source but otherwise looks similar to what you have. Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com Plainfield, IL RV6 N699BM Reserved Mounting Control Surfaces Stinson 108-2 N9666K ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Liming" <gary(at)liming.org> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Current Draw for heated pitot > > > I bought a used heated pitot from a salvage yard, it came from a > Cessna172. (picture at www.liming.org/ch801/instruments.html ) It tests > ok, that is it gets warm and and there is resistance, but I don't have an > accurate measurement of its resistance. Can anybody tell me what the > nominal load is so I can size the fuse and therefore the wire to run in the > wing? > > Thanks, > > Gary Liming > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2001
Subject: Re: Comm antenna.
From: Joel Harding <dsl10driver(at)ev1.net>
I'm in the process of mounting my com antenna on the bottom of the fuselage >> with a doubler on the inside. My question is, since I don't understand >> ground planes, do you prime between the layers for corrosion or leave bare >> metal for better contact, or am I wasting my time with totally irrelevant >> minutia? >> >> Joel Harding > > The doubler should be of sheet copper or brass . . . > brass preferred. The ground plane can be fabricated > from strips of copper foil . . . approx 1" wide and > radiating out from the doubler. Solder the ends of > the strips to the doubler. Make them 22" long measured > from center of doubler. It's okay if they bend along > interior contours. Minimum number is 4 radials, > no measurable additional benefits beyond 8 radials. Bob, Sorry, I should have mentioned that my fuselage is aluminum. Would you use the same technique that you described for graphite? Also, the inside surface is primed, so should that be removed where the skin and doubler touch? Thanks, Joel Harding ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Baycenterstore(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 29, 2001
Subject: Re: mutiple wires and butt splices . . .
In a message dated 9/28/01 4:24:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com writes: << We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Current Draw for heated pitot
> > >I bought a used heated pitot from a salvage yard, it came from a >Cessna172. (picture at www.liming.org/ch801/instruments.html ) It tests >ok, that is it gets warm and and there is resistance, but I don't have an >accurate measurement of its resistance. Can anybody tell me what the >nominal load is so I can size the fuse and therefore the wire to run in the >wing? > >Thanks, > >Gary Liming The resistance of most pitot heaters varies strongly with temperature of the heater. In fact, this feature of the will become the basis for the design of a pitot heater controller that will automatically adjust power to the heater depending on whether you're airborne or sitting on the ground, flying in clear air or being attacked by droplets of super-cooled water. 99% of the time we have pitot heat turned on, there is no real need for it . . . yet the WWII philosophy for deicing this portion of the airplane is "let 'er smoke . . . at least it will be ready when the ice really hits us." It's possible with simple electronics to apply only enough power so that the present task is satisfied. In no case, does the surface temperature of the probe need to be above 100F . . . grabbing a powered pitot tube on the ground should NOT produce a medium-well finish to your hand. Pitot tubes on the smaller airplanes are in the 100W category. If you want to safely test the tube you have, immerse the tube in water and hook it to your car battery current draw with a multimeter . . . this will be right in the ballpark for how it's going to operate in flight om your airplane. Pitot heaters have a large inrush current that decays slowly. It's not an uncommon requirement to use a 15A fuse and 14AWG wire to feed a pitot heater that draws 8A in flight . . . it WILL draw something on the order of 15A for a minute or so while it gets spooled up. This is a another design consideration that will become insignificant with the automatic heat controller. The other fallout from the controller is a PITOT HEAT FAIL warning light. I've got a meeting with some folks on this topic next week. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Questions
>I'm trying to finalize the electrical system for my Velocity, and I have a few questions that I can't find the answers to in your book. I decided to go with an all electric panel using two Concorde RG-25XC batteries, one in front of the aircraft and one in the back. Shhhesshhh!!!! Why so much battery capacity? >1) My engine supplier wants to know if these two batteries can provide at least 30 AH and 600 CCA. It is my understanding that I would have around 50 AH with the batteries in parallel, but when I looked at the figures for RG batteries on the Concorde website, I couldn't find CCA values. Could you give me a number for my batteries that would be roughly equivalent to CCA? CCA is a meaningless number in about every venue except on the four-color posters over the battery displays in Wall-Mart intended to induce a customer reaction in favor of buying a particular product. What engine are you using? I'm surprised that any producer of quality aircraft engines doesn't understand engine/battery relationships in airplanes. Suffice it to say that the combination of two RG batteries will provide about 2-5 times the snort needed to crank any engine in any worst case scenario. Do plan to swap these batteries around every annual? What is your game plan for tracking battery condition >2) I already bought an LR-3 regulator, but my engine supplier uses an alternator with a built-in regulator. They will use another alternator if I tell them what I want, but I don't know anything about alternators. Is it worth finding my own alternator to replace theirs so I can use the LR-3? I don't want to insist on using my regulator and alternator just because I already spent the money. If you don't use the LR-3, have you planned for an ACTIVE notification of alternator failure? A low voltage warning light that comes on any time the bus is below 13.0 volts? You can use an alternator with built in regulator. You should consider adding over voltage protection as described in: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bleadov.pdf >3) Will the fifteen feet of wire between the batteries cause any problems with proper charging or the use of the LR-3? One battery will be near the regulator, and the other will be near the alternator. What about the readings on the voltmeter? Maybe its negligible, but I'm thinking about voltage drop here. Wire the battery (+) and ground (-) paths with 2AWG wire. Make all threaded fasteners 5/16" brass bolts minimum (3/8" prefered) Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Microair Transponder
>Bob, > >I can finally give back a little something for all your help. I just ordered the Microair radio from you and I have decided that the Microair transponder is what I want. I know they haven't been released yet, but I'm going to trust them and go for it. > >Can I get an order in through you, yet. Also, will you have a harness available as with the radio and will any encoder (such as the ones in Aircraft Spruce for c. $150) interface fine with the Microair. > >Thanks again, > >Ron Yes, my offering of the Microair transponder will include a harness . . . like the comm radio. I will also offer a competitively priced encoder. I've not heard from my supplier yet as to when I can expect the first transponders which I've had on order for about 4 months. I'll drop them a e-mail note today. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org>
Subject: Re: Current Draw for heated pitot
Thanks for the very knowledgeable answer, Bob. I hope you will entertain a couple of follow-ups: > The resistance of most pitot heaters varies strongly with > temperature of the heater. In fact, this feature of the > will become the basis for the design of a pitot > heater controller that will automatically adjust power to > the heater depending on whether you're airborne or sitting > on the ground, flying in clear air or being attacked by > droplets of super-cooled water. Is this something you are going to put up on your site, or something custom you are doing for a client? I would be interested in building one if you spec one out. Are we talking a current limiter with a threshold detector for the light? > Pitot tubes on the smaller airplanes are in the 100W > category. If you want to safely test the tube you have, > immerse the tube in water and hook it to your car battery > current draw with a multimeter . . . this will be right > in the ballpark for how it's going to operate in flight > om your airplane.] 100/14 = about 7 amps. Mostly, I want to make sure the wire is right with no nuisance trips. I have some 18 ga on hand - do you think I should wait for an order of 14 ga? Use a 12 amp fuse with the 18, or does the inrush current make that too close for comfort? If I can count on a regulator, I guess the wiring requirement would be mush less? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Wire Identity
Bob, I have some AWG 22 wire I purchased before I knew of Tefzel. I don't know its pedigree. I wonder if you can identify this by the marking which is: Carol AWG 22 [backwards RU] AWM 105C VW-1 600V E-18621-8---CSA TEW 105C LL69381 --- Made in USA Is this of quality reasonable to use in panel wiring? Thanks, Richard Dudley ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Comm antenna.
> >Bob, are you talking about an aluminum airplane? > >Do us RV builders have to do this? No, the inside radials are for fiberglas airplanes only. See second post for graphite/aluminum ships. Bob . .. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wire Identity
> >Bob, > >I have some AWG 22 wire I purchased before I knew of Tefzel. I don't >know its pedigree. I wonder if you can identify this by the marking >which is: >Carol AWG 22 [backwards RU] AWM 105C VW-1 600V E-18621-8---CSA TEW 105C >LL69381 --- Made in USA > >Is this of quality reasonable to use in panel wiring? This stuff is PVC . . . not recommended for use on your airplane. It may be 7-strand, un-plated wire to boot. Get some good stuff from Aircraft Spruce. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: antenna installations
>Bob, >Sorry, I should have mentioned that my fuselage is aluminum. Would you use >the same technique that you described for graphite? Also, the inside >surface is primed, so should that be removed where the skin and doubler >touch? That does make a difference. I presume the doubler is riveted to the skin and perhaps includes a formed flange that picks up a riveted joint in something more substantial than the skin. You can leave ALL surfaces of the doubler primed for corrosion protection. Rivets swell in properly sized holes with enough force to insure good electrical connection to the airframe. I would clean off insulating material on both sides of all layers of the sandwich around the mounting holes to an area about 1/2" in diameter. This is important for antennas that have multiple fasteners holding the antenna base to the aircraft. Some antenna manufactures suggest cleaning all of the surface under an antenna base to insure electrical bonding. The large area is low pressure and certainly not gas-tight tight junction between antenna and airplane. The only place where practical bonding takes place is around the fasteners and only if they're torqued up nice and tight. If your antenna base comes with 8-32 mounting hardware, I'd drill out for 10-32 hardware, clean well for all metal under head of screw, around holes on all surfaces, and use internal tooth lock washers under inside nuts. Torque to 12-15 in/lbs. If your antenna is a single whisker mounted on a ceramic insulating bushing, only the ground for the coax shield is of any concern for bonding . . . here a terminal on a #8 screw with good cleaning of the area around the hole will suffice. Torque to 7-9 in/lb. Same techniques apply for graphite airplanes except that I wouldn't recommend the ceramic bushing style antenna. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Current Draw for heated pitot
> > >Thanks for the very knowledgeable answer, Bob. I hope you will entertain a >couple of follow-ups: > >> The resistance of most pitot heaters varies strongly with >> temperature of the heater. In fact, this feature of the >> will become the basis for the design of a pitot >> heater controller that will automatically adjust power to >> the heater depending on whether you're airborne or sitting >> on the ground, flying in clear air or being attacked by >> droplets of super-cooled water. > >Is this something you are going to put up on your site, or something custom >you are doing for a client? I would be interested in building one if you >spec one out. Are we talking a current limiter with a threshold detector >for the light? The technique is simple. (1) duty cycle switch power to the heater with a 99% max allowable on-time. (2) during the off-time, bias the heater with known constant current . . . say 100 m.a. (3) read heater voltage drop during off-time and deduce the heater's temperature based on known temp vs. resistance data. (4) modulate on-time so as to maintain a heater core temperature of some nominal value, say 100 degrees F. (5) When the heater is not being cooled by either in-flight airflow or icing conditions, the energy required to achieve 100F is nominally quite low. As heat sinking stresses increase, duty cycle will automatically increase in order to maintain 100F but no more. If at such time the stresses are so large that the duty cycle pegs at 99%, then the pitot heater will be working at no less effectiveness than if it were hard-wired to the system. (6) control can be implemented with a small microprocessor (7) failure can be deduced by software deduction of out-of-bounds votlage measurements during off-time. (8) Total bill of materials shouldn't exceed $30. It will take some packaging and software effort but it's EASY to test. I'm going to propose this as a project for Raytheon in a meeting I'm attending next week to discuss pitot heater issues. I'm publishing the how-to data here to make sure it's public domain data before I go into the meeting. Whether RAC chooses to do this or not should have no detrimental effect on getting it implemented on amateur built airplanes. Haven't got time to do it myself right now but if anyone wants to tackle it, I'll provide technical and material support. >> Pitot tubes on the smaller airplanes are in the 100W >> category. If you want to safely test the tube you have, >> immerse the tube in water and hook it to your car battery >> current draw with a multimeter . . . this will be right >> in the ballpark for how it's going to operate in flight >> om your airplane.] > >100/14 = about 7 amps. Mostly, I want to make sure the wire is right with >no nuisance trips. I have some 18 ga on hand - do you think I should wait >for an order of 14 ga? Use a 12 amp fuse with the 18, or does the inrush >current make that too close for comfort? If I can count on a regulator, I >guess the wiring requirement would be mush less? You could design the regulator not to exceed 50% duty cycle until the thing warms up enough to mitigate the otherwise hefty inrush . . . easiest and most robust thing to do is 15A and 14AWG. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Wire Identity
Thanks, Bob RHDudley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > >Bob, > > > >I have some AWG 22 wire I purchased before I knew of Tefzel. I don't > >know its pedigree. I wonder if you can identify this by the marking > >which is: > >Carol AWG 22 [backwards RU] AWM 105C VW-1 600V E-18621-8---CSA TEW 105C > >LL69381 --- Made in USA > > > >Is this of quality reasonable to use in panel wiring? > > This stuff is PVC . . . not recommended for use on > your airplane. It may be 7-strand, un-plated wire > to boot. Get some good stuff from Aircraft Spruce. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
Subject: Re: EFIS-D10
Date: Sep 29, 2001
> A $2000 EFIS display with mega features. Wow does this look interesting. > Available soon. What do you guys think? > http://www.dynondevelopment.com/ > Norman Hunger Anyone heard the latest on WHEN this thing will be available? This is just what I'm looking for in the next iteration of my panel. Randy Lervold www.rv-8.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2001
From: Steve Kay <skay(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: EFIS-D10
Randy Lervold wrote: > > > A $2000 EFIS display > I saw it at Oshkosh and have the brochure. It was an extremely bright display and simple to read as it is not cluttered. IMHO though it was too small for me, stilla student pilot. The thing they had that was even cooler was a pitot-static probe with built-in Angle of attack sensing. I'm very much leaning towards the Blue Mountain avionics EFIS-1. Greg Richter the owner is Bob Nuckolls talent level impressive and of the same philosophically. -Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: Alternator cooling
Date: Sep 29, 2001
>>If you really need to cool the alternator, then plan on doing some flight testing of temperatures to make sure the system is doing what you want it to do.<< All "conventional" alternators I know of have an integral fan for cooling. I would think the only reason you need to add a duct is if the alternator is in hot air to start with - which, of course, is the case for a lot of aircraft installations. My Porsche has a plastic shroud sealing around the O.D. of the alternator and a duct feeding it. That's probably the best approach except for the new lightweight alternators that have the fan internal - then you have to make sure you don't get in its way with the shroud. Actually, the air under an engine is probably not hot enough to justify the cooling duct unless you feel the need for maximum alternator output continuously. Just my opinion. Gary Casey Lancair in my garage with no need for an alternator yet. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Norman" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca>
Subject: Re: EFIS-D10
Date: Sep 29, 2001
> > > A $2000 EFIS display > > > I saw it at Oshkosh and have the brochure. It was an extremely bright display > and simple to read as it is not cluttered. > IMHO though it was too small for me, stilla student pilot. The thing they had > that was even cooler was a pitot-static probe with built-in Angle of attack > sensing. I'm very much leaning towards the Blue Mountain avionics EFIS-1. Blue Mountain is nice but at 5 times the cost of the Dynon EFIS-D10 http://www.dynondevelopment.com/ it does not compare. I'm already looking at $1700 USD for an electric attitude so the temptation to spend another $300 and get an EFIS is likely to happen. Norman Hunger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James E. Clark" <jclark(at)conterra.com>
Subject: "Portable Transponder" ??? Microair ???????
Date: Sep 29, 2001
Bob (and list members) ... Given recent events, I've been thinking that we will get to the point where **ALL** aicraft will require a transponder. And being a pat owner of an Aeronca Champ (no eletrical system), I wondered what would I do if this became the case. Then it dawned on me that it SHOULD be feasible to do a battery powered transponder (as we do hand-held radios). I was thinking something small in size (Microair??) and a battery pack. Given that a Champ is not going to be flying for much more that 2 hours (if that) before having to land and then not getting too far from home, this should be no big deal. The question is WOULD THIS WORK on a tube and fabric airplane? Could te antenna be on the inside (and if so would we get fried by the replies)? Would ATC likely see the replies over any reasonable distance? Have I been inhaling too much fiberglass dust? Seriously. it could a Microair radio/tansponder pack + small power pack reasonably be added to the more "mature" aircraft out there??? Just thinking out loud. james -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Microair Transponder >Bob, > >I can finally give back a little something for all your help. I just ordered the Microair radio from you and I have decided that the Microair transponder is what I want. I know they haven't been released yet, but I'm going to trust them and go for it. > >Can I get an order in through you, yet. Also, will you have a harness available as with the radio and will any encoder (such as the ones in Aircraft Spruce for c. $150) interface fine with the Microair. > >Thanks again, > >Ron Yes, my offering of the Microair transponder will include a harness . . . like the comm radio. I will also offer a competitively priced encoder. I've not heard from my supplier yet as to when I can expect the first transponders which I've had on order for about 4 months. I'll drop them a e-mail note today. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick" <turboflyer(at)mediaone.net>
Subject: Back up HT radio
Date: Sep 29, 2001
Is there a way to have an HT and my main radio on the same antenna. I checked with HRO and apparently they don't have a duplexer for the aircraft band. Thanks First timer Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com>
Subject: Re: EFIS-D10
Date: Sep 29, 2001
The October date on their website was recently changed to "late 2001." Larry Bowen RV-8 fuse Email: Larry(at)BowenAero.com Web: http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Randy > Lervold > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 5:55 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: EFIS-D10 > > > > A $2000 EFIS display with mega features. Wow does this look interesting. > > Available soon. What do you guys think? > > http://www.dynondevelopment.com/ > > Norman Hunger > > Anyone heard the latest on WHEN this thing will be available? This is just > what I'm looking for in the next iteration of my panel. > > Randy Lervold > www.rv-8.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R Colman" <ronincolman(at)home.com>
Subject: "Portable Transponder" ??? Microair ???????
Date: Sep 29, 2001
The Garmin transponders have a different (modern) method of operation that **may** (I don't have my book here) burn far less power per reply. Then there is the encoder issue which might be the fly in the ointment for your portable idea... Hopefully we in the Avia Community will very quickly get up to speed on the magnitude of the threat to our liberty and stick together and get political right now - yesterday would be better. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of James E. Clark Subject: AeroElectric-List: "Portable Transponder" ??? Microair ??????? Bob (and list members) ... Given recent events, I've been thinking that we will get to the point where **ALL** aicraft will require a transponder. And being a pat owner of an Aeronca Champ (no eletrical system), I wondered what would I do if this became the case. Then it dawned on me that it SHOULD be feasible to do a battery powered transponder (as we do hand-held radios). I was thinking something small in size (Microair??) and a battery pack. Given that a Champ is not going to be flying for much more that 2 hours (if that) before having to land and then not getting too far from home, this should be no big deal. The question is WOULD THIS WORK on a tube and fabric airplane? Could te antenna be on the inside (and if so would we get fried by the replies)? Would ATC likely see the replies over any reasonable distance? Have I been inhaling too much fiberglass dust? Seriously. it could a Microair radio/tansponder pack + small power pack reasonably be added to the more "mature" aircraft out there??? Just thinking out loud. james -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Microair Transponder >Bob, > >I can finally give back a little something for all your help. I just ordered the Microair radio from you and I have decided that the Microair transponder is what I want. I know they haven't been released yet, but I'm going to trust them and go for it. > >Can I get an order in through you, yet. Also, will you have a harness available as with the radio and will any encoder (such as the ones in Aircraft Spruce for c. $150) interface fine with the Microair. > >Thanks again, > >Ron Yes, my offering of the Microair transponder will include a harness . . . like the comm radio. I will also offer a competitively priced encoder. I've not heard from my supplier yet as to when I can expect the first transponders which I've had on order for about 4 months. I'll drop them a e-mail note today. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ronald A. Cox" <racox(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 09/28/01
Date: Sep 29, 2001
Yep, saw it here. Don't know, but it seems to be missing possiblly whole lines. I wondered what was up. Ron > I am noticing that my messages seem to be getting randomly > truncated . . . I assumed that the first one I saw was > a typing error . . . I've seen several more examples today. > > Are others seeing this phenomenon? > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2001
From: Van Caulart <etivc(at)iaw.on.ca>
Subject: Re: DIY Audio Panel
Bob & the List: First my gratitude Bob for your continued excellence. Well done. My question is perhaps too simple but I'm having a mental block with regard to setting up a simple audio panel. My aircraft is virgin '68 C177 with the following avionics KX170B King Nav/Com MRKR reciever. an UPSAT GX55 GPS, a Narco AT150 xpndr w/enc. There is no intercom. I just bought a a UPSAT SL40 com which has an intercom function. I have the pinouts for each of the avionics devices. Do I just need diodes in series with the audio outputs to isolate them from each other while switching between coms using SPST's mounted in the panel? I plan on installing a spkr/phone, com1, com2, nav1, mrkr and two spare switches. Comments, suggestions appreciated. PeterVC, '68 C177, 150HP ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Portable Transponder
> >Bob (and list members) ... > >Given recent events, I've been thinking that we will get to the point where >**ALL** aicraft will require a transponder. And being a pat owner of an >Aeronca Champ (no eletrical system), I wondered what would I do if this >became the case. > >Then it dawned on me that it SHOULD be feasible to do a battery powered >transponder (as we do hand-held radios). > >I was thinking something small in size (Microair??) and a battery pack. > > >Given that a Champ is not going to be flying for much more that 2 hours (if >that) before having to land and then not getting too far from home, this >should be no big deal. If you can have an essential bus in your alternator fitted airplane that can be supported for duration of fuel aboard should the airplane become alternator deficient, there's no reason be discouraged about doing the same thing with no alternator at all. >The question is WOULD THIS WORK on a tube and fabric airplane? I'd rig an external antenna and ground plane with a convenient means for attaching to something like a wing strut. >Could te antenna be on the inside (and if so would we get fried by the >replies)? Outside is MUCH better . . . and transponders only fry their insides, nothing outside. >Would ATC likely see the replies over any reasonable distance? That's the biggie . . . given the antique state of aircraft position detection and display . . . and given that the present systems are demonstrated to have serious reliability and operational deficiencies, one wonders if the guy on the 'scope is really going to be able to see you. I'll suggest the shortcomings are more likely to be in his system than with yours. >Have I been inhaling too much fiberglass dust? > >Seriously. it could a Microair radio/tansponder pack + small power pack >reasonably be added to the more "mature" aircraft out there??? A 7 a.h. battery (about 6 lbs) would run both a transponder and a Microair trasceiver for at least 5 hours. The encoder could be simply vented to cabin . . . there are a number of certified installations on older aircraft where this is done . . . the TriPacer is one that comes to mind. If the airplane's altimeter simply vents to cabin, then the encoder could do likewise. Rather than a "portable" radio installation, I'd opt for fixed installation of hardware and then make the battery portable so I could take it home for recharging. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Back up HT radio
> > > Is there a way to have an HT and my main radio on the same antenna. I >checked with HRO and apparently they don't have a duplexer for the aircraft >band. Don't think you'd want a diplexer even if one were available . . . too expensive and too fat. Consider an inline breakout of the comm antenna feedline in the cockpit so that you can unhook the panel mounted radio from the antenna and substitute a jumper from hand held to the antenna's feedline. Or you could get fancier . . . See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/commtap/commtap.html Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2001
From: ET - #PU <psi(at)hillweb.com>
Subject: Re: Portable Transponder
Over years we working on different DSP technologies and implementations for different small portable and non portable devices. Last summer we start develop 5th generation transponder with build in encoder and support for A, C, S mode. All developed on silicon and do not incorporate tubes... Small footprint and rigid design incorporate proprietary transmitter output protection and powerful output (300w) with ability to consume less then 1a during transmission. Stand-by power consumption is limited on level around 100mA. (LCD back light is off). We could be in production for another 5..7 month. Problem is financing. If any one would like to own part of new generation transponder company, welcome to write private @ transponder(at)umbtech.com Sincerely, Vlad > > > > > > >Bob (and list members) ... > > > >Given recent events, I've been thinking that we will get to the point where > >**ALL** aicraft will require a transponder. And being a pat owner of an > >Aeronca Champ (no eletrical system), I wondered what would I do if this > >became the case. > > > >Then it dawned on me that it SHOULD be feasible to do a battery powered > >transponder (as we do hand-held radios). > > > >I was thinking something small in size (Microair??) and a battery pack. > > > > > >Given that a Champ is not going to be flying for much more that 2 hours (if > >that) before having to land and then not getting too far from home, this > >should be no big deal. > > If you can have an essential bus in your alternator > fitted airplane that can be supported for duration > of fuel aboard should the airplane become alternator > deficient, there's no reason be discouraged about > doing the same thing with no alternator at all. > > > >The question is WOULD THIS WORK on a tube and fabric airplane? > > > I'd rig an external antenna and ground plane with a > convenient means for attaching to something like a wing > strut. > > >Could te antenna be on the inside (and if so would we get fried by the > >replies)? > > Outside is MUCH better . . . and transponders only > fry their insides, nothing outside. > > > >Would ATC likely see the replies over any reasonable distance? > > That's the biggie . . . given the antique state of aircraft > position detection and display . . . and given that the present > systems are demonstrated to have serious reliability and > operational deficiencies, one wonders if the guy on the 'scope > is really going to be able to see you. I'll suggest the shortcomings > are more likely to be in his system than with yours. > > >Have I been inhaling too much fiberglass dust? > > > >Seriously. it could a Microair radio/tansponder pack + small power pack > >reasonably be added to the more "mature" aircraft out there??? > > > A 7 a.h. battery (about 6 lbs) would run both a transponder > and a Microair trasceiver for at least 5 hours. The encoder > could be simply vented to cabin . . . there are a number of > certified installations on older aircraft where this is done . . . > the TriPacer is one that comes to mind. If the airplane's > altimeter simply vents to cabin, then the encoder could do > likewise. > > Rather than a "portable" radio installation, I'd opt for fixed > installation of hardware and then make the battery portable > so I could take it home for recharging. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2001
From: Steve Kay <skay(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: EFIS-D10
I understand where you're coming from but to have a full glass IFR panel w/ moving map GPS and fully customizable instruments for 10K when starting from scratch, I'll go EFIS-1 -Steve I'll go EFIS-1 Norman wrote: > > Blue Mountain is nice but at 5 times the cost of the Dynon EFIS-D10 > http://www.dynondevelopment.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: Pitot heat controller
Date: Oct 01, 2001
My company could easily develop and build a pitot heat controller like what was suggested here the other day. It would modulate duty cycle to maintain a fixed temperature, thus saving current draw 90% of the time. In envision replacing the switch with one that lights for the fault indication. With modern power FETs the heat dissipation might be minimal and with internal short circuit detection a shorted wire would only create a fault warning, not a blown circuit breaker. How much interest would there be for such a thing? Gary Casey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R Colman" <ronincolman(at)home.com>
Subject: Pitot heat controller
Date: Oct 01, 2001
I think the problem is that you need the tube hot **before** you get into ice. The idea is to never let ice form, not melt it off after the fact (though they can do that). My guess is that most tubes don't have the watts to go from covered with ice to clean in seconds. Making such a device is easy, testing.... My company could easily develop and build a pitot heat controller like what was suggested here the other day. It would modulate duty cycle to maintain a fixed temperature, thus saving current draw 90% of the time. In envision replacing the switch with one that lights for the fault indication. With modern power FETs the heat dissipation might be minimal and with internal short circuit detection a shorted wire would only create a fault warning, not a blown circuit breaker. How much interest would there be for such a thing? Gary Casey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2001
From: ET - #PU <psi(at)hillweb.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat controller
PWM could create a lot of noise. Need to have linear regulator or have good shielding all way around. Also most noise will come via power lines, so need to have good filtration on power line as well. With current drainage on most HPT around 10A and more it is hell a lot of capacitors and inductors.... The simplest way I think, to have mechanical thermo-relay similar to hot-iron or coffee-maker. But for some reason, HPT manufacturing company do not do that. Why? Vlad > >My company could easily develop and build a pitot heat controller like what >was suggested here the other day. It would modulate duty cycle to maintain >a fixed temperature, thus saving current draw 90% of the time. In envision >replacing the switch with one that lights for the fault indication. With >modern power FETs the heat dissipation might be minimal and with internal >short circuit detection a shorted wire would only create a fault warning, >not a blown circuit breaker. How much interest would there be for such a >thing? > >Gary Casey > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carlfro(at)erols.com>
Subject: How to use Van's AMP meter
Date: Oct 01, 2001
All, I have a Van's amp meter with a shunt installed on the ground side of each battery (switch selects which battery the meter is reading). Van's instructions call for the shunt to be installed on the positive side of the battery. The 4 terminals on the meter are +, - (leads from the shunt), ground and +12 volts. The meter does not work with the shunt on the ground side of the battery so I assume there is a bridge network of some kind internal to the meter that is looking for a voltage drop across the shunt on the positive side (i.e. same voltage drop across the shunt, just biased up to the battery terminal voltage). Anyone know how I can wire the amp meter to work with the shunts on the ground side of the battery? Carl Froehlich RV-8A (moving to the hanger this month) Vienna, VA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Pitot heat controller
Date: Oct 01, 201
ET - #PU wrote: > > > PWM could create a lot of noise. Need to have linear regulator or have > good shielding all way around. Also most noise will come via power lines, > so need to have good filtration on power line as well. > With current drainage on most HPT around 10A and more it is hell a > lot of capacitors and inductors.... The simplest way I think, to have > mechanical *** If the switching frequency is fairly high, the filtering should not be too hard. It would be a big help if the pitot had its own ground return back to the controller, instead of running the switched current through the airframe. > thermo-relay similar to hot-iron or coffee-maker. But for some reason, > HPT manufacturing company do not do that. Why? *** I once worked as an instrument repair tech at an electronics factory. On my desk was an expensive fast oscilloscope and a thermally-regulated soldering iron. Every once in a while, the soldering iron would click, maintaining its temperature. And my scope would always trigger when it did so.... - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: How to use Van's AMP meter
Date: Oct 01, 201
Carl Froehlich wrote: > > I have a Van's amp meter with a shunt installed on the ground side of > each battery > *** Carl, If you use a ground-side shunt, then the negative terminal of the battery will not be at "ground". Rather, it will be removed from ground by the voltage drop across the shunt. This would be, AFAIK, a Bad Thing. Maybe others know better, but I personally would directly ground the negative terminals of the batteries with large wires.... - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: How to use Van's AMP meter
Date: Oct 01, 2001
If the starter ground has to go through the shunts, then you are getting starter current through the shunts. Can they handle that? Is there a significant advantage to putting the shunts on the ground side? It seems the easiest thing would be to install them on the high side per the instructions. Some ammeters would work fine with the shunt on the ground side, (one in which the shunt signal directly drives the meter movement). Evidently, the Van's meter doesn't work that way, which is why it requires the power and ground connections in addition to the shunt wires, (Some meters may require power and ground simply for internal lighting). David Swartzendruber Wichita > All, > > I have a Van's amp meter with a shunt installed on the ground side of > each battery (switch selects which battery the meter is reading). Van's > instructions call for the shunt to be installed on the positive > side of the > battery. The 4 terminals on the meter are +, - (leads from the shunt), > ground and +12 volts. The meter does not work with the shunt on > the ground > side of the battery so I assume there is a bridge network of some kind > internal to the meter that is looking for a voltage drop across > the shunt on > the positive side (i.e. same voltage drop across the shunt, just biased up > to the battery terminal voltage). > > Anyone know how I can wire the amp meter to work with the > shunts on the > ground side of the battery? > > Carl Froehlich > RV-8A (moving to the hanger this month) > Vienna, VA > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2001
From: ET - #PU <psi(at)hillweb.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat controller
> >*** If the switching frequency is fairly high, the filtering should not be too >hard. It would be a big help if the pitot had its own ground return back to >the controller, instead of running the switched current through the >airframe. Yes it is right, but to some extend. Increasing of switching frequency will require better quality transistors and increase cost. But there is some lost (voltage lost) on an open transistor. So, you increase frequency, it is decreasing size of capacitors and inductors, but will increase heat dissipation on transistors heat think, which is need to be drained from your battery. > > thermo-relay similar to hot-iron or coffee-maker. But for some reason, > > HPT manufacturing company do not do that. Why? > >*** I once worked as an instrument repair tech at an electronics factory. >On my desk was an expensive fast oscilloscope and a thermally-regulated >soldering iron. Every once in a while, the soldering iron would click, >maintaining its temperature. And my scope would always trigger when it >did so.... Even inexpensive scoop or even radio will get that spike. So, go to linear regulator! :-) Vlad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carlfro(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: How to use Van's AMP meter
Date: Oct 01, 2001
If the shunt is on the plus side of the battery, the exact same starting current will pass through it. The advantage of the shunt on the ground side is the shunt leads are at ground, or very near ground potential (I know, this is a small advantage but I didn't know about the meter specifics until after all the wiring was done and I don't want to do a major mod at this point). Van's amp meter has separate wires for lighting. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: How to use Van's AMP meter > > If the starter ground has to go through the shunts, then you are getting > starter current through the shunts. Can they handle that? Is there a > significant advantage to putting the shunts on the ground side? It seems > the easiest thing would be to install them on the high side per the > instructions. Some ammeters would work fine with the shunt on the ground > side, (one in which the shunt signal directly drives the meter movement). > Evidently, the Van's meter doesn't work that way, which is why it requires > the power and ground connections in addition to the shunt wires, (Some > meters may require power and ground simply for internal lighting). > > David Swartzendruber > Wichita > > > All, > > > > I have a Van's amp meter with a shunt installed on the ground side of > > each battery (switch selects which battery the meter is reading). Van's > > instructions call for the shunt to be installed on the positive > > side of the > > battery. The 4 terminals on the meter are +, - (leads from the shunt), > > ground and +12 volts. The meter does not work with the shunt on > > the ground > > side of the battery so I assume there is a bridge network of some kind > > internal to the meter that is looking for a voltage drop across > > the shunt on > > the positive side (i.e. same voltage drop across the shunt, just biased up > > to the battery terminal voltage). > > > > Anyone know how I can wire the amp meter to work with the > > shunts on the > > ground side of the battery? > > > > Carl Froehlich > > RV-8A (moving to the hanger this month) > > Vienna, VA > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: How to use Van's AMP meter
Date: Oct 01, 2001
If the shunt cannot handle starter current, then a separate path must be provided for the starter current that does not go through the shunt. As you brought up, this is true whether the shunt is on the ground side or the plus side of the battery. If you are using the airframe for your ground, it may be easier to separate the starter current from the other loads on the plus side than it is on the ground side. If you can provide a separate ground path for the starter directly to the battery, then you could leave the shunt on the ground side if you used a meter where the signal from the shunt actually drove the meter movement. It would be possible to build a box that would take the signal from the shunt and convert it to a signal that could drive the Van's meter, but that hardly seems the optimum solution. Providing wire protection on the shunt wires sounds a lot easier. If you were to use a shunt that could handle starter current, then you'd have to worry about what that big of a signal would do to your meter, or do something to clip the signal when it went that big. Another option would be to throw out the current shunts and the ammeter and rely on a voltmeter to monitor the status of your electrical system. David Swartzendruber Wichita > > > > If the shunt is on the plus side of the battery, the exact same starting > current will pass through it. The advantage of the shunt on the > ground side > is the shunt leads are at ground, or very near ground potential (I know, > this is a small advantage but I didn't know about the meter > specifics until > after all the wiring was done and I don't want to do a major mod at this > point). > > Van's amp meter has separate wires for lighting. > > > Carl > > > > > > If the starter ground has to go through the shunts, then you are getting > > starter current through the shunts. Can they handle that? Is there a > > significant advantage to putting the shunts on the ground side? > It seems > > the easiest thing would be to install them on the high side per the > > instructions. Some ammeters would work fine with the shunt on > the ground > > side, (one in which the shunt signal directly drives the meter > movement). > > Evidently, the Van's meter doesn't work that way, which is why > it requires > > the power and ground connections in addition to the shunt wires, (Some > > meters may require power and ground simply for internal lighting). > > > > David Swartzendruber > > Wichita > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Norman" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca>
"AeroElectric List"
Subject: Dynon EFIS-D10
Date: Oct 01, 2001
This product is a glass attitude EFIS with tape strip displays of airspeed, heading, altitude, angle of attack, VSI, voltmeter, G meter, clock, ball and slip, all on the primary display page. I phoned Gillian today for more information. They are in flight testing with a C-180 on floats and a Beaver on floats. They are behind in their schedule and they have been held up by recent events. They now expect to begin deliveries early next year. http://www.dynondevelopment.com/ Gillian C. Torode Dynon Development Inc. 19501 144th Ave NE Suite C-500 Woodinville, WA 98072 (425)402-4404 Phone (425)984-1751 Fax Pricing will start at around $2000 including probes. Add $200 for a heated pitot tube that will run the Angle of Attack bar graph next to your airspeed bar graph. This pitot tube is supposed to be the standard size, I should be able to retrofit it into my existing mast. Also available is a standby battery that automatically charges and gives you three hours running time. One concern for RV'ers is the ability for it to be bright enough. The two aircraft in Dynon's test fleet don't sport the bubble canopy that requires the brightest of displays. This is a big unanswered question. Gillian reported that they have now had close to 1000 enquiries but are not actually taking orders. They are planning an engine monitor next, then some form of moving map and a HSI. All modules will be able to link to each other. A few more companies like this and we will soon have affordable glass cockpits. I like the idea of an affordable EFIS, I might just get one....... In shuffling the panel I think the EFIS will replace the Attitude, and the Attitude will replace the DG which I will lose altogether. At least one of my moving map systems will have the common electronic HSI. Stay tuned...... Norman Hunger RV6A Delta BC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: How to use Van's AMP meter
> >Carl Froehlich wrote: >> >> I have a Van's amp meter with a shunt installed on the ground side of >> each battery >> >*** Carl, > > If you use a ground-side shunt, then the negative terminal of the battery >will not be at "ground". Rather, it will be removed from ground by the >voltage drop across the shunt. This would be, AFAIK, a Bad Thing. Maybe >others know better, but I personally would directly ground the negative terminals >of the batteries with large wires.... > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) The BIGGEST problem with the ground side battery shunt is that the ammeter system has to withstand cranking currents. I thought it was a pretty good idea when I wrote about it in the 'Connection but have since realized that it's a poor method. There is nothing MAGIC about a battery ammeter versus an alternator loadmeter . . . both devices can yield useful information with respect to system diagnosis. I prefer the alternator loadmeter combined with a low voltage warning light as a minimum augmented with a digital or expanded scale voltmeter on the e-bus if possible. If you choose to attache the alternator b-lead to the starter contactor as shown in our drawings then a battery ammeter is not practical. If you've determined that a battery ammeter is essential to the way you want to configure your airplane, then the classic C-172 wiring diagram (alternator b-lead attached to main bus) is your best bet. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Pitot heat controller
Date: Oct 01, 201
ET - #PU wrote: > Increasing of switching frequency will require better quality transistors and > increase cost *** Fast power transistors are not at all exotic these days. But there is some lost (voltage lost) on an open transistor. *** There is very little loss in an open transistor, or in a closed one. It's in between ( linear regime ) that they dissipate power. I've seen transistor switches fry because they weren't being turned on or off hard enough. > So, you > increase frequency, it is decreasing size of capacitors and inductors, but > will > increase heat dissipation on transistors heat *** True. Epecially if you design the circuits to turn them on and off "softly" - that is, with softened corners to the controlling wave. This minimizes noise, but at the cost of some increased dissipation. Which is still miniscule compared to the dissipation of a linear regulator. think, which is need to be > drained > from your battery. *** Linear regulator will drain far more. > So, go to linear regulator! *** Linear regulators are power hungry and heavy ( because of needed heat sink ). A switching regulator can be much smaller. When I say "high frequency", I'm talking about 10 -20 kHz. At those frequencies, a reasonable transistor will be either "on" or "off" 99.9 percent of the time. It's not like computers that operate at many hundreds of megaherz, and when you speed them up, the little transistors spend a lot of time between "on" and "off", and so have to be cooled.... ( My son has a fetish for fast cheap computers. His system sits open with a room fan blowing into it. ) Another possible design would be a SLOW electronic switch, with soft switching, that went on for a second and then off for some seconds. No noise, minimal heat dissipation. You might its waveform on the bus DC voltage though, since it's hard to supply enough energy for a really long pulse out of a local cap. - Jerry p.s. I do have a fondness for quality linear regulators - one of my favorite projects was a 13.8V, 20A linear supply that I designed & built about 20 years ago. This thing had six TO-3 darlingtons mounted on a monster heat sink. They were in the negative leg of the supply, and so could have their cases grounded. This supply sat under my workbench supplying 12V 24 hours a day for 15 years without a burp. You could hook a scope to its output and use it to zap a 1/2 ohm bank of dogbone resistors - without seeing so much as a glitch on the trace. But I could barely lift it :). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Experimental Server . . .
I'm getting an increasing number of notes from folk who have trouble downloading .pdf files from our articles archives on www.aeroelectric.com The work-around for most problems is to download the file to disk and then open it with Acrobat independently of the browser . . . however, there's about a half dozen folk reporting problems that seem to be unique to my site. I've mirrored my articles archives on an experimental server here in Wichita. For persons who have experienced problems in the past, try accessing the documents from http://209.134.106.21/articles.html and let me know how it works. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com>
Subject: Pitot heat controller
Date: Oct 01, 2001
One reason I'd do it with a switcher is that I'd want to be doing that resistance measurement while it was turned off. With a little microcontroller, you could make a way overkill accurate resistance measurement in a few microseconds while it was off and still maintain a several kilohertz switching frequency so that heavy-duty filtering would consist of a couple of small caps and some ferrite beads. On the other hand, applying the KISS principle, I think I'd dispense with the controller altogether. The only problems I can see with the overkill big heater are that you might burn your finger if you left it on when you were on the ground, and that under IFR conditions where you didn't need all the heat, you would be wasting a some power. For battery sizing and all that, I think you'd still need to assume the worst case where the controller would have to crank it up to full blast the whole time because it was cold outside. All the controller gets you is longer battery life on "nice" days when you don't really need it. > -----Original Message----- > From: jerry(at)tr2.com [mailto:jerry(at)tr2.com] > Sent: None > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pitot heat controller > > > > ET - #PU wrote: > > Increasing of switching frequency will require better > quality transistors and > > increase cost > > > *** Fast power transistors are not at all exotic these days. > > But there is some lost (voltage lost) on an open transistor. > *** There is very little loss in an open transistor, or in a > closed one. > It's in between ( linear regime ) that they dissipate power. > I've seen > transistor switches fry because they weren't being turned on > or off hard > enough. > > > So, you > > increase frequency, it is decreasing size of capacitors and > inductors, but > > will > > increase heat dissipation on transistors heat > *** True. Epecially if you design the circuits to turn them > on and off > "softly" - that is, with softened corners to the controlling > wave. This > minimizes noise, but at the cost of some increased > dissipation. Which > is still miniscule compared to the dissipation of a linear regulator. > > > think, which is need to be > > drained > > from your battery. > > *** Linear regulator will drain far more. > > > So, go to linear regulator! > > *** Linear regulators are power hungry and heavy ( because of > needed heat > sink ). A switching regulator can be much smaller. > > When I say "high frequency", I'm talking about 10 -20 kHz. > At those > frequencies, a reasonable transistor will be either "on" or "off" 99.9 > percent of the time. It's not like computers that operate at > many hundreds > of megaherz, and when you speed them up, the little > transistors spend a > lot of time between "on" and "off", and so have to be cooled.... > > ( My son has a fetish for fast cheap computers. His > system sits open > with a room fan blowing into it. ) > > Another possible design would be a SLOW electronic switch, > with soft > switching, that went on for a second and then off for some > seconds. No > noise, minimal heat dissipation. You might its waveform on the bus DC > voltage though, since it's hard to supply enough energy for a > really long > pulse out of a local cap. > > - Jerry > > p.s. I do have a fondness for quality linear regulators - one of my > favorite projects was a 13.8V, 20A linear supply that I designed & > built about 20 years ago. This thing had six TO-3 > darlingtons mounted on > a monster heat sink. They were in the negative leg of the supply, and > so could have their cases grounded. This supply sat under my > workbench > supplying 12V 24 hours a day for 15 years without a burp. You could > hook a scope to its output and use it to zap a 1/2 ohm bank of dogbone > resistors - without seeing so much as a glitch on the trace. But I > could barely lift it :). > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Pitot heat controller
Date: Oct 01, 201
Don Hyde wrote: > > > One reason I'd do it with a switcher is that I'd want to be doing that > resistance measurement while it was turned off. With a little > microcontroller, you could make a way overkill accurate resistance > measurement in a few microseconds *** Heck, you could make ten or twenty resistance measurements, and average them out. while it was off *** Why when it's off? You can measure the voltage & current while it's on... and still maintain a > several kilohertz switching frequency so that heavy-duty filtering would > consist of a couple of small caps and some ferrite beads. > *** Yup. - Jerry "70's" Kaidor ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2001
From: ET - #PU <psi(at)hillweb.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat controller
>*** Fast power transistors are not at all exotic these days. They still to have some voltage on total on and it will generate heat. "Slow" open is kind of solution, but more heat need to be run out. For instance, one of anticollision switch which been approved by FAA is build with really big heat sink. Why? Noise reduction for slow open/close. > But there is some lost (voltage lost) on an open transistor. >*** There is very little loss in an open transistor, or in a closed one. >It's in between ( linear regime ) that they dissipate power. I've seen >transistor switches fry because they weren't being turned on or off hard >enough. Linear time is much shorter then is on mode and with even 0.3v on MOSFET with 20A of current you will get 6W which is required great dead bolt heat sink. Of course you can heat them up to 120C, but in an aircraft cockpit it could be more. > > So, you > > increase frequency, it is decreasing size of capacitors and inductors, but > > will > > increase heat dissipation on transistors heat >*** True. Epecially if you design the circuits to turn them on and off >"softly" - that is, with softened corners to the controlling wave. This >minimizes noise, but at the cost of some increased dissipation. Which >is still miniscule compared to the dissipation of a linear regulator. It is illuminate some high frequency spectrum noise, but still have low frequency components, and also additional HUGE wattage during slowly open and close... Just to guess, another 30W on 20A with a few kilohertz of switching, with 90% duty cycle. It is true? And it is still have some low frequency noise component, which will be well reach you headphones, even with direct ground induction. I have try that already on PA28. > think, which is need to be > > drained > > from your battery. > >*** Linear regulator will drain far more. Sure more! But is quite! > > So, go to linear regulator! > >*** Linear regulators are power hungry and heavy ( because of needed heat >sink ). A switching regulator can be much smaller. DO you want idea for heat sink? Mount that transistor inside Heated Pitot tube! Cooling together with heating! Some around 30 years I done that with design no-noise soldering iron. I still have some where patent on that. Work fine and been even mass manufacturing for "special" applications by some "agency". > When I say "high frequency", I'm talking about 10 -20 kHz. At those >frequencies, a reasonable transistor will be either "on" or "off" 99.9 >percent of the time. It's not like computers that operate at many hundreds >of megaherz, and when you speed them up, the little transistors spend a >lot of time between "on" and "off", and so have to be cooled.... 99.9 % will make sharp spikes and produce a lot of high frequency and middle range radio noise. Since you produce once that noise, it close to impossible make it disappear. At least it is a lot of work. >p.s. I do have a fondness for quality linear regulators - one of my >favorite projects was a 13.8V, 20A linear supply that I designed & >built about 20 years ago. This thing had six TO-3 darlingtons mounted on >a monster heat sink. They were in the negative leg of the supply, and >so could have their cases grounded. This supply sat under my workbench >supplying 12V 24 hours a day for 15 years without a burp. You could >hook a scope to its output and use it to zap a 1/2 ohm bank of dogbone >resistors - without seeing so much as a glitch on the trace. But I >could barely lift it :). Mine was 50A with 0.1v..32v range, and when you connect 0.2ohm heater it is really glow and there is same voltage on output what you dial. No spike on scoop, even with 5mV resolution. Yes, great era of darlingtones and another 30 or so transistors. No MOSFET under your disposal or other weird staff. Another time, another people.... Vlad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2001
From: ET - #PU <psi(at)hillweb.com>
Subject: Pitot heat controller
> >One reason I'd do it with a switcher is that I'd want to be doing that >resistance measurement while it was turned off. With a little >microcontroller, you could make a way overkill accurate resistance >measurement in a few microseconds while it was off and still maintain a >several kilohertz switching frequency so that heavy-duty filtering would >consist of a couple of small caps and some ferrite beads. Several kilohertz of switching for high current volume (around 20A) will required good size of "ferrite beads" and for sure good capacitors. And perhaps a few RC bridges on power will not help well. There is some another way to do so. Look on Linear chips for power supply. Some of them switching devices with protection from shortage. Vlad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Nu4man(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 02, 2001
Subject: Re: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly
Posting] Please change my email address from nu4man(at)aol.com to nu24man(at)earthlink.net Thanks, Norm Foreman ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: Pitot heat controller
Date: Oct 02, 2001
Lots of good comments on the pitot heat controller. One thought would be to do it without a microprocessor - they are cheap, but the ancillary components add parts count. Maybe set up a dedicated circuit that turns on for a fixed time. When it shuts off it monitors temperature by a low current flow and then turns back on when temperature drops below a threshold. Thus the off-time varies. I don't think the switching would produce significant noise as it is a pure resistive device. The primary noise input to the system would probably be the load dump spike from the alternator on turn-off. Yes, it could be packaged so it could even fit within the mast of the pitot tube, but then there would be no fault indication unless a separate wire was run all the way back to the panel. How much inrush is there on a typical landing light? On my Cessna, there is an audible pop in the headset when I turn both lights on at once, but not when I only turn one on. When turning them off there is no audible noise. I'm guessing they draw 5 amps each on, so the inrush of both might be as high as 50 amps. ?? A lot more than the pitot tube heater. How much power would it save? I don't know, as the TC of the heater now used is a crude way of reducing the current - it just does it by getting a lot hotter, and when it gets water on it the current goes up as the temperature drops. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Pitot Tube Heat Controller
Date: Oct 01, 2001
I looked into the electronic means of doing this, including PICs and some clever chips and finally settled on PTC (Positive Temperature-Coefficient) thermistors. These are used, for example, to defrost automobile rear-view mirrors. They are rugged and seemed made for the task. They have a characteristic low resistance that increases sharply above a specified transition temperature. So they could be 50 ohms at 25 degC and 1000 ohms at 35 degC. Thus they would try to maintain themselves near their transition temperature. I calculated that six of these in parallel would generate about 20W. The shapes of thermistors are limited unless custom parts are designed. I did not have a need for tens of thousands of these, so Digikey supplied a dozen KC001P for about $20. Not an ideal shape, but okay. I made the inside of this pitot tube with 1/4" aluminum tube bent to match the streamlined shape. The aluminum tube is not the most reliable electrical conductor, so I wrapped the tube in adhesive copper foil. I removed the leads from the PTC thermistors with a soldering iron. The faces of the PTC "pellets" were then soldered on, corncob fashion, to the nose end of the pitot tube. Breaking the pellets into D-shaped parts would have made placement easier and would have done no harm to the PTC. When one side of all these parts was soldered to the copper foil covered pitot tube nose, I wrapped a piece of braided copper shield around it to make contact to the back side of the PTCs. This wire was carried up to inside the wing. The other terminal was the copper foil tape and aluminum tube.If the device at room temperature is connected to 12 volts, the current through it is small. Nothing much appears to happen! But with the pitot tube in the freezer the current increases by 15X or so. Upon removal from the freezer, the nose is warm and the current soon returns to normal. All this is illustrated (and a streaminled housing for it ) on Glastarnet/Stargate. I'm not flying yet so this is experimental. Life is an experiment. Eric M. Jones N5EJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2001
From: ET - #PU <psi(at)hillweb.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot Tube Heat Controller
We tested a few different types of PTC. They could not work in parallel! They will blow off almost instantly one-by-one basis when temperature is decreasing. Why? They will start to open in different temperature, another word they do not match each other. From pack of ten you probably will find two which much each other with precision of 1C degree, but it is not enough. Vlad > >I looked into the electronic means of doing this, including PICs and >some clever chips and finally settled on PTC (Positive >Temperature-Coefficient) thermistors. These are used, for example, to >defrost automobile rear-view mirrors. They are rugged and seemed made >for the task. They have a characteristic low resistance that increases >sharply above a specified transition temperature. So they could be 50 >ohms at 25 degC and 1000 ohms at 35 degC. Thus they would try to >maintain themselves near their transition temperature. I calculated that >six of these in parallel would generate about 20W. > > >The shapes of thermistors are limited unless custom parts are designed. >I did not have a need for tens of thousands of these, so Digikey >supplied a dozen KC001P for about $20. Not an ideal shape, but okay. > >I made the inside of this pitot tube with 1/4" aluminum tube bent to >match the streamlined shape. The aluminum tube is not the most reliable >electrical conductor, so I wrapped the tube in adhesive copper foil. I >removed the leads from the PTC thermistors with a soldering iron. The >faces of the PTC "pellets" were then soldered on, corncob fashion, to >the nose end of the pitot tube. Breaking the pellets into D-shaped parts >would have made placement easier and would have done no harm to the PTC. >When one side of all these parts was soldered to the copper foil covered >pitot tube nose, I wrapped a piece of braided copper shield around it to >make contact to the back side of the PTCs. This wire was carried up to >inside the wing. The other terminal was the copper foil tape and >aluminum tube.If the device at room temperature is connected to 12 >volts, the current through it is small. Nothing much appears to happen! >But with the pitot tube in the freezer the current increases by 15X or >so. Upon removal from the freezer, the nose is warm and the current soon >returns to normal. > >All this is illustrated (and a streaminled housing for it ) on >Glastarnet/Stargate. I'm not flying yet so this is experimental. Life is >an experiment. > >Eric M. Jones N5EJ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Stolen Instruments
Date: Oct 02, 2001
I just got back from vacation to find my newly overhauled electric RC Allen DG and electric BF Goodrich Artificial Horizon and my Rocky Mountain Micro-encoder stolen. They didn't take any of the paperwork so I still have the yellow tags. Let me know if you see these items on the various internet auctions or elsewhere. RC Allen Electric Directional Gyro P/N RCAA15AK-2 S/N 96B0095 BF Goodrich Electric Attitude Horizon P/N 5040033943 S/N 25119 I don't have the serial number for the miroencoder here but I will post later. These are still in the shrink wrap that Gyro House uses after overhaul. Ross Mickey RV6-A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2001
From: Ronbo135(at)aol.com
Subject: Nippondenso alternator
I have a Stratus Subaru which has a self-regulating alternator (Nippondenso 55 AMP), but I would like to install the linear regulator that Bob recommends and B&C sells. I think I saw instructions on how to do this for specific alternators somewhere, but now I can't find them. Any pointers would be very welcome. Thanks, Ron Hansen Los Angeles Zenair 601HDS/Stratus/BRS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2001
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Nippondenso alternator
Ron, Issue No. 46 of Contact magazine (www.nonprofitnet.com/contact/) has an article on converting internally regulated alternators, written by Paul Messinger, retired Aeronautical & Electronics engineer. Past issues are available for $4.00 each. -- Mark > >I have a Stratus Subaru which has a self-regulating alternator >(Nippondenso 55 AMP), but I would like to install the linear regulator >that Bob recommends and B&C sells. > >I think I saw instructions on how to do this for specific alternators >somewhere, but now I can't find them. > >Any pointers would be very welcome. > >Thanks, > >Ron Hansen >Los Angeles >Zenair 601HDS/Stratus/BRS > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leonard Garceau" <lhgcpg(at)westriv.com>
Subject: Re: Nippondenso alternator
Date: Oct 02, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Steitle" <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator Can anyone recommend the maximum speed I should run a Nippondenso alternator? What is the ideal speed for charging and wear and tear? Thanks Leonard PS I sure have picked up some good tips for my autoconversion glastar. Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Marshall Robert <rmarshall@pilatus-aircraft.com>
Subject: Alternator cooling
Date: Oct 03, 2001
Other reasons would be : 1. To keep fuel vapour, following a leak, away from sparking brushes (if it was that type of generator). 2. To scoop in and direct RAM air during flight for additional cooling. Bob M All "conventional" alternators I know of have an integral fan for cooling. I would think the only reason you need to add a duct is if the alternator is in hot air to start with - which, of course, is the case for a lot of aircraft installations. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Marshall Robert <rmarshall@pilatus-aircraft.com>
Subject: Dynon EFIS-D10
Date: Oct 03, 2001
If it's an Active Matrix Liquid Crystal Display (AMLCD) type of device and has a specified output of more than 160 foot-Lambert's then it should be sunlight readable. One concern for RV'ers is the ability for it to be bright enough. The two aircraft in Dynon's test fleet don't sport the bubble canopy that requires the brightest of displays. This is a big unanswered question. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: PTC Heated Pitot Tube
Date: Oct 02, 2001
Vlad, In my humble opinion you have the series and parallel problems reversed. The PTC works beautifully to maintain a particular temperature in parallel connections. Imagine you have one on the pitot tube and one warming the pilot's seat...that's a parallel connection...should one not work? Series connections are an altogether different problem. Go to Google and enter "PTC thermistor parallel" and see what comes up. The makers of these things have lots of online information. I don't think precision is important here but it may depend on application. One might actually think my PTC pitot tube is not working, since these particular PTCs are rated at 30 degrees Celsius and are therefore cool to the touch at room temperature. But they crank right up when the ambient goes down. Mine work wonderfully. But we could use another independent test--I've been wrong before and stupid as well--hey that's Science. Place an order with Digikey for a few parts and test them. The FAA wants an orange light on the instrument panel to indicate the pitot heat is on....I don't know what they expect since the pitot heat is on with the main bus in this design. Oh well...glad this is experimental. Best regards, Eric >We tested a few different types of PTC. >They could not work in parallel! They will blow off almost instantly >one-by-one >basis when temperature is decreasing. Why? They will start to open in different >temperature, another word they do not match each other. From pack of ten you >probably will find two which much each other with precision of 1C degree, but >it is not enough. >Vlad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2001
From: ET - #PU <psi(at)hillweb.com>
Subject: Re: PTC Heated Pitot Tube
Eric, Thank you very much for heated seat, which is warming my bat now! :-) It is not a problem of parallel connection at all. It is great way to do so. But main problem in parallel connection is - all devices shell open in same (please note SAME) time. Why? Because if we will assume one thermistor will open little bit more then others, a lot of current will come through that particular resistor, and will cause overheating. But down to the sloop of temperature decreasing, will be open other one, it will be relief some overheating for first one, and so on... Let assume this parallel control unit will go back and forth on temperature sloop and this process of course will again and again repeat... Guess which resistor will overheated most? Yes, that first one, and all time. So, that resistor will blow out first. After second open one, after third.... And so on... What is inside of that resistors? Semiconductor substances. All they has different temperature/resistance curvatures. They could not be same, by nature of production. So, if lucky, and you have very close ones you device will work longer then, who is less lucky. Our test showed how after 100 cycles two parallel elements totally blows. So you probably have a few hundred cycles till this will self destruct. Again, do not take wrong, this is generally right idea, and could work, if: - you will find all devices with similar T/R curvatures; - make them temperature attached to each other (put some Ti paste and make copper shroud temperature attached to heating element). About indication, make third wire coming from PT. -----+ +12v buss | | | This is your parallel thermoregulator | | v | +-----------> to small light bulb on instrument panel | when is glow heater on PT os ON | | This is your seat heater, sorry PT heater element | | v | ----- Also, if you make that third wire think enough, you can use additional "emergency" switch to the +12v which will turn ON PT heater all time. Good luck! Vlad > >Vlad, > >In my humble opinion you have the series and parallel problems reversed. >The PTC works beautifully to maintain a particular temperature in >parallel connections. Imagine you have one on the pitot tube and one >warming the pilot's seat...that's a parallel connection...should one not >work? Series connections are an altogether different problem. Go to >Google and enter "PTC thermistor parallel" and see what comes up. The >makers of these things have lots of online information. I don't think >precision is important here but it may depend on application. > >One might actually think my PTC pitot tube is not working, since these >particular PTCs are rated at 30 degrees Celsius and are therefore cool >to the touch at room temperature. But they crank right up when the >ambient goes down. > >Mine work wonderfully. But we could use another independent test--I've >been wrong before and stupid as well--hey that's Science. Place an order >with Digikey for a few parts and test them. > >The FAA wants an orange light on the instrument panel to indicate the >pitot heat is on....I don't know what they expect since the pitot heat >is on with the main bus in this design. Oh well...glad this is >experimental. > >Best regards, >Eric > > > >We tested a few different types of PTC. > >They could not work in parallel! They will blow off almost instantly > >one-by-one > >basis when temperature is decreasing. Why? They will start to open in >different > >temperature, another word they do not match each other. From pack of >ten you > >probably will find two which much each other with precision of 1C >degree, but > >it is not enough. > >Vlad > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: Nippondenso alternator
Date: Oct 03, 2001
>>Can anyone recommend the maximum speed I should run a Nippondenso alternator? What is the ideal speed for charging and wear and tear?<< Most alternators, I believe, will produce their rated current at about 4,000 rpm and I would think that the "desired" rpm would be between 4,000 and 6,000 rpm. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Nippondenso alternator
> >>>Can anyone recommend the maximum speed I should run a Nippondenso >alternator? What is the ideal speed for charging and wear and tear?<< > >Most alternators, I believe, will produce their rated current at about 4,000 >rpm and I would think that the "desired" rpm would be between 4,000 and >6,000 rpm. B&C has sold several thousand of these alternators over the past 10 years. They've found that best performance & service life are achieved IF (1) the stock pulley that comes on the machine is left in place. These are generally pretty small and will turn the alternator at over 10,00 rpm in cruise on a Lyc engine. (2) balance the rotor to about 10x better specs than as-manufactured . . . this insures bearing life at the higher-than-automotive speeds. (3) the higher pulley ratio gives you better output at ramp idle and taxi speeds. It also improves cooling at cruise speeds. B&C's experinece with this philosophy has been exemplary. Return rate for the FLEET over the market life of this alternator has been less than 1% . . . virtually none have been returned for wearout or failure. Returns are to repair damage from misuse or poor installation. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: PTC Heated Pitot Tube
Date: Oct 03, 201
ET - #PU wrote: > > > Eric, > Thank you very much for heated seat, which is warming my bat now! :-) > It is not a problem of parallel connection at all. It is great way to do so. > > But main problem in parallel connection is - all devices shell open in same *** I think we have a discontinuity in ideas here. Vlad is talking about two parallel elements feeding the same load. Eric OTOH is talking about two elements feeding DIFFERENT loads. The second case is of course, OK - one element really has nothing to do with the other. The first is problematical because of one element hogging the current. Maybe ballast resistors ( or appropriately sized "resistance" wires ) would help? - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) p.s. a Vlad - ne russkij li? > (please note SAME) time. Why? Because if we will assume one thermistor > will open little bit more then others, a lot of current will come through that > particular resistor, and will cause overheating. But down to the sloop of > temperature decreasing, will be open other one, it will be relief some > overheating for first one, and so on... > Let assume this parallel control unit will go back and forth on temperature > sloop and this process of course will again and again repeat... Guess which > resistor will overheated most? Yes, that first one, and all time. So, that > resistor > will blow out first. After second open one, after third.... And so on... > What is inside of that resistors? Semiconductor substances. All they has > different > temperature/resistance curvatures. They could not be same, by nature of > production. > So, if lucky, and you have very close ones you device will work longer > then, who is > less lucky. Our test showed how after 100 cycles two parallel elements > totally blows. > So you probably have a few hundred cycles till this will self destruct. > > Again, do not take wrong, this is generally right idea, and could work, if: > - you will find all devices with similar T/R curvatures; > - make them temperature attached to each other (put some Ti paste and make > copper > shroud temperature attached to heating element). > > About indication, make third wire coming from PT. > > -----+ +12v buss > | > > | | This is your parallel thermoregulator > | | > v > | > +-----------> to small light bulb on instrument panel > | when is glow heater on PT os ON > > | | This is your seat heater, sorry PT heater element > | | > v > | > ----- > Also, if you make that third wire think enough, you can use additional > "emergency" > switch to the +12v which will turn ON PT heater all time. > > Good luck! > Vlad > > > > > >Vlad, > > > >In my humble opinion you have the series and parallel problems reversed. > >The PTC works beautifully to maintain a particular temperature in > >parallel connections. Imagine you have one on the pitot tube and one > >warming the pilot's seat...that's a parallel connection...should one not > >work? Series connections are an altogether different problem. Go to > >Google and enter "PTC thermistor parallel" and see what comes up. The > >makers of these things have lots of online information. I don't think > >precision is important here but it may depend on application. > > > >One might actually think my PTC pitot tube is not working, since these > >particular PTCs are rated at 30 degrees Celsius and are therefore cool > >to the touch at room temperature. But they crank right up when the > >ambient goes down. > > > >Mine work wonderfully. But we could use another independent test--I've > >been wrong before and stupid as well--hey that's Science. Place an order > >with Digikey for a few parts and test them. > > > >The FAA wants an orange light on the instrument panel to indicate the > >pitot heat is on....I don't know what they expect since the pitot heat > >is on with the main bus in this design. Oh well...glad this is > >experimental. > > > >Best regards, > >Eric > > > > > > >We tested a few different types of PTC. > > >They could not work in parallel! They will blow off almost instantly > > >one-by-one > > >basis when temperature is decreasing. Why? They will start to open in > >different > > >temperature, another word they do not match each other. From pack of > >ten you > > >probably will find two which much each other with precision of 1C > >degree, but > > >it is not enough. > > >Vlad > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: Nippondenso alternator
Date: Oct 03, 2001
The max rated speed is around 16,000 rpm. On an auto engine the alternator is usually setup to around 2 times the engine speed. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Casey Subject: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator >>Can anyone recommend the maximum speed I should run a Nippondenso alternator? What is the ideal speed for charging and wear and tear?<< Most alternators, I believe, will produce their rated current at about 4,000 rpm and I would think that the "desired" rpm would be between 4,000 and 6,000 rpm. _ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: Nippondenso alternator
Date: Oct 03, 2001
Thanks for the plug. I would suggest that its not a simple conversion (on a Nippondenso) and unless you are skilled, consider using the stock internal regulator with the excellent design Bob has for external crowbar for internally regulated alternators. Paul Messinger PS on the "plug side" the BEST source for electrical design for aircraft is Bob's book. If you have only one "book" get Bob's. This list is only the tip of the iceberg for essential info. Contact! mag is great for auto engine conversions and covers the entire conversion subject. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator Ron, Issue No. 46 of Contact magazine (www.nonprofitnet.com/contact/) has an article on converting internally regulated alternators, written by Paul Messinger, retired Aeronautical & Electronics engineer. Past issues are available for $4.00 each. -- Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2001
From: Ronbo135(at)aol.com
Subject: Nippondenso alternator
Thanks for the help. Bob's book has ragged pages I've been through it so many times. I didn't know it was going to be so difficult to use an external voltage regulator on my Stratus. I may have one of B&Cs regulators for sale soon. Thanks again, Ron Hansen Los Angeles Zenair 601/Stratus/BRS In a message dated Wed, 3 Oct 2001 1:02:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Paul Messinger" writes: > > Thanks for the plug. > > I would suggest that its not a simple conversion (on a Nippondenso) and > unless you are skilled, consider using the stock internal regulator with the > excellent design Bob has for external crowbar for internally regulated > alternators. > > Paul Messinger > PS on the "plug side" the BEST source for electrical design for aircraft is > Bob's book. If you have only one "book" get Bob's. This list is only the tip > of the iceberg for essential info. > > Contact! mag is great for auto engine conversions and covers the entire > conversion subject. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Nippondenso alternator
Date: Oct 03, 2001
At one time, B&C was willing to modify a customers Nippondenso alternator the same way they modify their new ones for $50. David Swartzendruber Wichita > I have a Stratus Subaru which has a self-regulating alternator > (Nippondenso 55 AMP), but I would like to install the linear > regulator that Bob recommends and B&C sells. > > I think I saw instructions on how to do this for specific > alternators somewhere, but now I can't find them. > > Any pointers would be very welcome. > > Thanks, > > Ron Hansen > Los Angeles > Zenair 601HDS/Stratus/BRS > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick" <turboflyer(at)mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Nippondenso alternator
Date: Oct 03, 2001
Are all ND alternators the same. I had one die today and will need to replace it. Thought about going to Kragen but how do I get a hold of a B and C unit. Mine is off an NSI EA-81 set up with almost 500 hours. Richard ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Coonan" <gcoonan(at)home.com>
Subject: Wire labeling
Date: Oct 03, 2001
A couple of weeks ago, some one was asking about wire labeling. I found a heat shrink tube printer that prints right on the tube. Works great and does a really pro-job. $150 check it out. http://www.graphicproducts.com Gary Coonan Rockvale, TN RV-7 N989WT (Wings) gcoonan(at)home.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leonard Garceau" <lhgcpg(at)westriv.com>
Subject: Re: Nippondenso alternator
Date: Oct 03, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Nippondenso alternator > > The max rated speed is around 16,000 rpm. On an auto engine the alternator > is usually setup to around 2 times the engine speed. > > Paul > > Does anyone know where I could purchase an after market billet aluminum pulley for Nippondenso? My pulley on my engine is 6.5 inches and the pulley on the alternator is 2.25. I'd like a little bigger pulley to slow the alternator down a bit at cruise. Leonard Bismarck ND ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Nippondenso alternator
Date: Oct 03, 2001
The current generation of automotive Nippondenso's are all constructed in a similar manner but are not the same. The built in regulators vary a lot with two, three, and four terminals. When you ask how to get a hold of a B&C unit, do you mean other than from B&C? If you don't want a B&C, you'll just have to look at a lot of them, and find one configured the way you want it with the output you want. The modification to eliminate the built in regulator is about the same no matter which one you get. There were some Nippondenso's used on some Chryslers that used an external regulator, but they are bigger (95A) and heavier than the B&C units. The brush block, terminal block, and rear cover from some of them can be switched with alternators the same size as a B&C L-60, but the cover doesn't fit right and I'm not sure how it would affect the cooling. David Swartzendruber Wichita > > Are all ND alternators the same. I had one die today and will need to > replace it. Thought about going to Kragen but how do I get a hold of a B > and C unit. Mine is off an NSI EA-81 set up with almost 500 hours. > Richard > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Nippondenso alternator
> >Does anyone know where I could purchase an after market billet aluminum >pulley for Nippondenso? My pulley on my engine is 6.5 inches and the pulley >on the alternator is 2.25. I'd like a little bigger pulley to slow the >alternator down a bit at cruise. > >Leonard >Bismarck ND Why do you want to do this? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "K Stribling" <bbattery(at)bendcable.com>
Subject: microair 760
Date: Oct 03, 2001
I installed my radio last fall in my rv 6a, and I cant seem to get the channel indicator to switch the small of the frequency any ideas to fix it or does it need to go in for warrantee. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: alternator speeds
Date: Oct 04, 2001
>> The max rated speed is around 16,000 rpm. On an auto engine the alternator > is usually setup to around 2 times the engine speed. > > Paul > > Does anyone know where I could purchase an after market billet aluminum pulley for Nippondenso? My pulley on my engine is 6.5 inches and the pulley on the alternator is 2.25. I'd like a little bigger pulley to slow the alternator down a bit at cruise.<< another post: >> (1) the stock pulley that comes on the machine is left in place. These are generally pretty small and will turn the alternator at over 10,00 rpm in cruise on a Lyc engine.<< To turn the alternator at 10,000 rpm would require a 4:1 pulley ratio and the minimum size pulley for a normal V-belt would be maybe a little less than 4 inches. I don't know what diameter the drive pulley is on a Lycoming, but it can't be much over 10 inches or it would be larger than the prop spinner. To run a 4:1 ratio would require a flat multi-groove belt and an idler puller to get enough wrap. Also, the alternator is most efficient at the minimum speed required to get maximum current, somewhere around 4,000 rpm, and higher speeds will result in lower efficiencies. On aircraft applications the idle charge rate is usually compromised in order to get more efficiency in the normal operating range. Also, remember that the operating range of an aircraft engine is nearly the same as for a car - 650 rpm idle and 2400 rpm cruise. The alternators are designed to be able to tolerate overspeeds of over 12,000 rpm just because the car engine occasionally drives it there. I would keep the drive ratio between 2 and 2.5. Just my opinion.. Gary Casey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Goff" <dgoff(at)megasystem.com>
Subject: Re: Nippondenso alternator
Date: Oct 04, 2001
Johhny Lindgren at Northwest Aero sells a "designed to work together" set for the auto-conversion folks. The pulleys are also sold separately. I got a set for my conversion and they're just flawless. They're made for use with a serpentine belt. http://northwest-aero.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Nippondenso alternator > > > > > >Does anyone know where I could purchase an after market billet aluminum > >pulley for Nippondenso? My pulley on my engine is 6.5 inches and the pulley > >on the alternator is 2.25. I'd like a little bigger pulley to slow the > >alternator down a bit at cruise. > > > >Leonard > >Bismarck ND > > > Why do you want to do this? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Williams <sbw(at)sbw.org>
Date: Oct 04, 2001
Subject: Re: Experimental Server . . .
Some folks I work with had a similar problem and found this Adobe tech support document. I've only skimmed it, but I thought you might find it useful. http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/29776.htm Or have you already searched Adobe's tech support site pretty thoroughly? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: microair 760
> >I installed my radio last fall in my rv 6a, and I cant seem to get the >channel indicator to switch the small of the frequency any ideas to fix it >or does it need to go in for warrantee. Do I assume correctly that the radio has been working correctly and only recently started mis-behaving? Did you buy the radio from me? I don't find you in my database. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leonard Garceau" <lhgcpg(at)westriv.com>
Subject: Re: Nippondenso alternator
Date: Oct 04, 2001
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Nippondenso alternator > > > > > >Does anyone know where I could purchase an after market billet aluminum > >pulley for Nippondenso? My pulley on my engine is 6.5 inches and the pulley > >on the alternator is 2.25. I'd like a little bigger pulley to slow the > >alternator down a bit at cruise. > > > >Leonard > >Bismarck ND > > > Why do you want to do this? Hi Bob, Go question? I was afraid at 4000 rpm cruise speed my alternator would run 12,000 rpm. In situations where I need lot of power I will run intermittent 5400 which is three to one (I believe by pulley size) the alternator will be turning over 15,000 rpm. Is this a problem? Thanks Leonard > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Nippondenso alternator
> >Thanks for the help. Bob's book has ragged pages I've been through it so many times. I didn't know it was going to be so difficult to use an external voltage regulator on my Stratus. I may have one of B&Cs regulators for sale soon. > >Thanks again, > >Ron Hansen >Los Angeles >Zenair 601/Stratus/BRS . . . if you elect NOT to use the B&C regluator, I hope you're planning on some other form of LV warning and over voltage protection. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James K. Glindemann" <jglind(at)netspace.net.au>
Subject: Re: Wire labeling
Date: Oct 05, 2001
Hi Gary, they have several different models displayed, which one are you recommending? regards James K. Glindemann > > A couple of weeks ago, some one was asking about wire labeling. I found > a heat shrink tube printer that prints right on the tube. Works great > and does a really pro-job. $150 check it out. > > http://www.graphicproducts.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Coonan" <gcoonan(at)home.com>
Subject: Wire labeling
Date: Oct 04, 2001
James, That depends on your situation. I got the K3000-PC. I have a computer handy so this works fine for me. It lets you use MS-word or any other application for that matter to print. But if I was working out at a hanger, with not computer, I would have gone with the k2500. Gary Coonan Rockvale, TN RV-7 N989WT (Wings) gcoonan(at)home.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James K. Glindemann Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire labeling Hi Gary, they have several different models displayed, which one are you recommending? regards James K. Glindemann > > A couple of weeks ago, some one was asking about wire labeling. I found > a heat shrink tube printer that prints right on the tube. Works great > and does a really pro-job. $150 check it out. > > http://www.graphicproducts.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2001
From: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Wire labeling
James; If you go to this link, http://www.graphicproducts.com/products/kroy/kroy600.htm , I think it is the model Gary was referring to to print on heat shrink. If you click on the buy now button it will show you the price and the accessories. (you can exit without buying) Bob McC "James K. Glindemann" wrote: > > Hi Gary, > > they have several different models displayed, which one are you > recommending? > > regards > James K. Glindemann > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mike.weed(at)acterna.com
Date: Oct 05, 2001
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 10/03/01
I can tell you from experience that anything less than 400 nits in a transmissive AMLCD will NOT be sunlight readable, and even that is very marginal in shaft sunlight. We tested about a dozen 10.4" displays and only two were acceptable. This was for a portable test product, so we were power conscious. There are 10.4" displays out there with 1000 nit backlights, but they are power hogs (would not be an issue for this app.). Our method of testing was to roll them out into our parking lot (Florida) and fire them up. Most failed miserably. Many salesmen were just as disappointed, I guess they never checked. A newer technology is promising. It's the transflective AMLCD and is a combination of a reflective and transmissive AMLCD. In bright light, the incident light is reflected off the back of the display and helps improve contrast. In dark conditions, the backlight provides the contrast in typical AMLCD fashion. Sharp demo'd a prototype for us and it worked quite well. Smaller versions are available right now, but we needed a 10.4". The notebook and PDA guys are really pushing these because of the power savings. From: Marshall Robert <rmarshall@pilatus-aircraft.com> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dynon EFIS-D10 <rmarshall@pilatus-aircraft.com> If it's an Active Matrix Liquid Crystal Display (AMLCD) type of device and has a specified output of more than 160 foot-Lambert's then it should be sunlight readable. One concern for RV'ers is the ability for it to be bright enough. The two aircraft in Dynon's test fleet don't sport the bubble canopy that requires the brightest of displays. This is a big unanswered question. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ken Stribling" <bbattery(at)bendcable.com>
Subject: Re: microair 760
Date: Oct 05, 2001
Thanks for replying No I did not buy it from you but before I tear the dash apart to send it in for warranty I was hoping that it was a common problem and I could fix it in the plane. The radio was working at none time it just recently started doing this, could the set button be pushed in on the shaft to far? Thanks again Ken S. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: microair 760 > > > > >I installed my radio last fall in my rv 6a, and I cant seem to get the > >channel indicator to switch the small of the frequency any ideas to fix it > >or does it need to go in for warrantee. > > > Do I assume correctly that the radio has been working > correctly and only recently started mis-behaving? > Did you buy the radio from me? I don't find you in > my database. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------------- > ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) > ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) > ( - Epictetus ) > ---------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2001
From: Bill Irvine <wgirvine(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Bigger pulley
> Does anyone know where I could purchase an after > market billet aluminum pulley for Nippondenso? > >Leonard > >Bismarck ND Try Aircraft Spruce, page 243. 4 inch pulley for $48.95 Bill http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2001
From: J D Newsum <jdnewsum(at)qwest.net>
Subject: Re: Bigger pulley
Avery Tools lists a 4" aluminum alternator pulley (part # 10780, on page 64 of the 1999-2000 Tools Catalog). Description says for use with Nipon & Honda Civic alternator. It might be what you are looking for. Dave Bill Irvine wrote: > > > Does anyone know where I could purchase an after > > market billet aluminum pulley for Nippondenso? > > >Leonard > > >Bismarck ND > > Try Aircraft Spruce, page 243. 4 inch pulley for > $48.95 > > Bill > > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2001
From: Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs
- 10/03/01 mike.weed(at)acterna.com wrote: > A newer technology is promising. It's the transflective AMLCD and is a > combination of a reflective and transmissive AMLCD. Late last year (September?) I read in IEEE Spectrum magazine about a new "cholesteric" LCD display. This promised to be about as good to read as newspaper in bright sunlight, and was due for roll-out within a few months. I don't know the status of it now, but it might be worth looking into. Frank. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Nippondenso alternator
>> Why do you want to do this? > >Hi Bob, Go question? I was afraid at 4000 rpm cruise speed my alternator >would run 12,000 rpm. In situations where I need lot of power I will run >intermittent 5400 which is three to one (I believe by pulley size) the >alternator will be turning over 15,000 rpm. Is this a problem? > >Thanks > >Leonard That is a tad fast compared to current B&C installations on Lycomings. Call Bill at 316.283.8000 and see what he thinks. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: microair 760
> >Thanks for replying >No I did not buy it from you but before I tear the dash apart to send it in >for warranty I was hoping that it was a common problem and I could fix it in >the plane. >The radio was working at one time it just recently started doing this, >could the set button be pushed in on the shaft to far? Hmmmm . . . I don't have a radio here in hand to look at, just sold the last two yesterday but your hypothesis seems rational . . . Is the knob held on with a setscrew? If so, you might try repositioning it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2001
From: DALE ALEXANDER <Dalexan48(at)Prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 10/04/01
>Also, the alternator is most efficient > at the minimum speed required to get maximum current, somewhere around 4,000 > rpm, and higher speeds will result in lower efficiencies. On aircraft > applications the idle charge rate is usually compromised in order to get > more efficiency in the normal operating range This is with conventional "Y" type stators. I remember some high end GM cars were equipped with available Delta wind stators that would bring over 100 amps of power at just above idle. I also recently sent along to Bob information about 2002 Toyota alternator that had two "Y" stators offset 30 degrees to help reduce ripple and noise. Toyota is moving to a body electrical network type system and noise will become more of an issue in cars. This alternator also output 130 amps. More good things are on the horizon with auto stuff. Dale Alexander Velocity 173 RG Elite ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Basic Wiring Questions
> >I'm working off Figure Z-8 and have come across a few questions. > >Main Battery Master Switch (2-3) >Is this a double pole double throw switch? Later versions of that drawing call out a 2-10 . . . double pole, three position, ON-ON-ON function. This allows the single switch to mimic the function of the nearly sacred split rocker master switch. Bottom position - ALL OFF, mid position - BATTERY ONLY, upper position, BATTY and ALTERNATOR ON. >With this set up does the master have to be on to engage the starter? Yes . . . the master switch needs to have control of ALL aircraft power except for the e-bus alternate feed. >If adding a ground power receptacle, does it wire into the hot side of the >master contactor? Yes, I prefer this connection because it allows you to charge a battery without having any other power applied to the aircraft. >Auxiliary Alternator off/on - is this a single pole single throw switch to >be mounted on the panel? Yes. >Are avionics masters not done anymore? The "need" for the avionics master was misunderstood from day-one . . . we didn't know much about solid state electronics when transistors first started to show up in airplane radios. See: http://209.134.106.21/articles/avmaster.pdf The avionics master was born in the mid 60's, long before we learned how to build robust solid state systems an quantify the gremlins that were supposed to be lurking around every bush waiting for a vulnerable transistor to come along. See: http://209.134.106.21/articles/do160.html >This diagram indicates that there will be two alternator load meters. Are >they the same wired in parallel? (in my case a RMI Monitor) No, run BOTH alternators through the same sensor. You'll only need to run one alternator at a time so the same sensor can read either or both alternators simultaneously, it doesn't know and doesn't care. >Does the voltage regulator and the LR-3 go in the engine compartment? Wherever you want to put it for best accessability. >How are folks mounting that honkin capacitor? Adel clamps. >Thank-you, >Norman Hunger >RV6A Delta BC My pleasure sir . . . Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: RCT-1
>Bob, > >Have rec'd the above crimping tool and it is impressive (once I figured out >how to unlatch it - either the latch is hidden intentionally or my fingers >are too fat). Unlatch? . . . was there something jammed in the tool that prevented you from closing it all the way? >Anyway, a couple of questions - > >1. Any guidelines on the use of the adjustment (I guess) star wheel? Never had a reason to mess with it. In fact, I've not taken time to deduce when and if it needs to be adjusted. I did pull tests on the tools as received and found them satisfactory. >2. This question has to do with the situation where, for example, you want a >wire to go from a fuse to a terminal on instrument #1, then continue on to a >second instrument, and you are using Fast-On terminals. Looks like there >are 2 possibilities; jamb two wires into the Fast-On at Instrument #1, or >use a butt splice somewhere between the fuss and instrument #1. Either is fine. For example, you can put up to four 22AWG wires into a red terminal. Multiple conductors can be connected into all of the crimped terminals. The trick is to make sure that the stripped ends of all conductors stay even with each other as the bundle is inserted into the terminal. I cut a rubber band to make a "hog tie" strand of rubber. Even up the ends of the bundle and then wrap about 10 turns of rubber band around it about 1" from the end. This high tension, high friction capturing of the bundle strands makes sure that they don't slip out of alignment as you work them into the terminal. >Would appreciate you feelings about the best way to proceed, or (knowing >you) another dozen or say ways to accomplish the same thing. If we're going >the 2-conductors-into-one-terminal route, some guidance on terminal size for >2 conductors would help. The total cross section of wire needs to be within the ratings of the terminal. Every 3AWG steps in wire doubles or halves the cross section of copper. So, if you have a red terminal good for 18-22AWG, we can deduce that three strands of 22AWG are equal to 19AWG, the 4th strand takes in into the neighborhood of 18AWG. Similarly for a blue splice (14-16AWG) you could put six 22AWG wires into one end of a blue splice. >PS - Actually, as long as I have (hopefully) your attention, I do have >another question about my airplane - VariEze (misnomer if I ever heard one). >The issue is the need for shielded wiring. The basic battery/charging >system causes you to have 4 wires (antennas?) each essentially 10 ft long >running the full length of the fuselage. (This ignores the strobe wiring, >which is probably 25 feet from the switch to EACH wingtip.) We really need >some clear advice on which of these, or other, wires need to be shielded. >There is a lot of material out there on wiring in general, but, especially >in plastic airplanes, there is precious little metal (shielding) to hide >behind. The plastic airplane newsgroups are full of questions about oddball >problems caused by alternator noise, so I don't think it's just me. There is NO practical use for shielding any wires beyond what the manufacturer of a particular system recommends. Referring to wiring diagrams of certified airplanes for guidance is fraught with error too. The only wires that automatically get shields are spark plug wires, p-lead terminals from mags, and strobe tube leadwires between power supply and tube assembly. Audio and avionics wires will get shielding in accordance with installation instructions provided with those appliances. See chapter on noise mitigation in the AeroElectric Connection. >BTW, all the above also applies to the other canards like the LongEze, >Berkut, Cozy, etc. A metal airplane offers some opportunity for remote grounding of some systems and a modicum of shielding of systems INTERNAL to the airplane from noise sources EXTERNAL to the airplane. There's where the advantages end. Poor grounding philosophy can make ANY airplane noisy. Willy-nilly application of shielding and filters can make an airplane heavy and hard to build and have no appreciable benefits. Noise mitigation is in no way an art but a well defined (if poorly understood) science. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)corecomm.net>
Subject: OAT transducer and meter.
Date: Oct 06, 2001
List, I am in the market for an OAT. Does anyone have a strong opinion on where to get the biggest bang for the buck? I'd even consider building one. Thanks, Tom Barnes -6 all electric ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2001
From: Thomas Velvick <tomvelvick(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: OAT transducer and meter.
> >List, > I am in the market for an OAT. Does anyone have a strong opinion on >where to get the biggest bang for the buck? I'd even consider building one. Radio Shack. Regards, Tom Velvick Peoria, AZ USA N9233A rv-4 trapped under enhance Class B N188KJ rv-6a wiring. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor
> >I bought my master contactor and starter contactor from Van a few years ago. >I've got them mounted back to back on the firewall. I'm now trying to wire >up the master contactor but the studs aren't long enough for all the stuff I >have to put on. The nut that holds the stud on the casing is much thicker >than the nut that holds the ring terminals on. Can I remove the thick nuts >and install thinner nuts? > >Where might I find such nuts? They look like a fine thread. sure, they're called a jam nut . . . and typically 2/3 or less the thickness of a regular nut. Have you got access to a machine shop? A little work with a milling machine and a belt sander will thin down your existing nuts. Are they brass or steel? I much prefer brass for these high current terminals. We throw away the steel hardware that comes on contactors we sell and replace them with brass nuts and phosphor bronze internal tooth lockwashers. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Baycenterstore(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 07, 2001
Subject: Re: RCT-1
In a message dated 10/6/01 11:57:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com writes: << For example, you can put up to four 22AWG wires into a red terminal. Multiple conductors can be connected into all of the crimped terminals. The trick is to make sure that the stripped ends of all conductors stay even with each other as the bundle is inserted into the terminal. >> Thanks for the info on computing the wire sizing. I just bench tested using multiple wires in a Red Fast On using your formula and can't get the insulation to fit in the connector. I am using MS 22759/16 wire. Got any suggestions. Thanks, John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor
Date: Oct 07, 2001
Bob, Are the brass nuts and bronze lockwashers items that can be purchased locally? I have been trying to find them to replace a nut and washer that I have missplaced. I know that as soon as I find replacements...they will show up! ; ) Jerry Calvert Edmond Ok -6 ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Master Contactor > > > > >I bought my master contactor and starter contactor from Van a few years ago. > >I've got them mounted back to back on the firewall. I'm now trying to wire > >up the master contactor but the studs aren't long enough for all the stuff I > >have to put on. The nut that holds the stud on the casing is much thicker > >than the nut that holds the ring terminals on. Can I remove the thick nuts > >and install thinner nuts? > > > >Where might I find such nuts? They look like a fine thread. > > > sure, they're called a jam nut . . . and typically > 2/3 or less the thickness of a regular nut. Have you got > access to a machine shop? A little work with a milling > machine and a belt sander will thin down your existing > nuts. Are they brass or steel? I much prefer brass for > these high current terminals. We throw away the steel > hardware that comes on contactors we sell and replace > them with brass nuts and phosphor bronze internal tooth > lockwashers. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------------- > ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) > ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) > ( - Epictetus ) > ---------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: Avionics Master
Date: Oct 07, 2001
>>The avionics master was born in the mid 60's, long before we learned how to build robust solid state systems an quantify the gremlins that were supposed to be lurking around every bush waiting for a vulnerable transistor to come along.<< I thought the main reason for the Avionics master was to reduce the wear-and-tear on the switches and volume controls of the individual radios. And also to make it easier to remember to turn all of them on and off. Had both problems on our old Cherokee. Incidentally, The "approved" avionics master for our 182 was very complex - as I recall, they must have been worried about redundancy or something. Also, some Cessna 177's had a "hidden" master that shut off the avionics buss during cranking. Was all this too much worrying over nothing? Gary Casey C177RG, Lancair ES ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ronald A. Cox" <racox(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 10/06/01
Date: Oct 07, 2001
> From: "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)corecomm.net> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: OAT transducer and meter. > > > List, > I am in the market for an OAT. Does anyone have a strong opinion on > where to get the biggest bang for the buck? I'd even consider building one. > > Thanks, > Tom Barnes -6 all electric Tom: I bought an electronic one, with a display about 2.5"x1", and a long lead to the sensor (thermistor?) Cost seems like it was about $10 at Radio Shack. Archer P/N 277-0123. I'm going to try that. Reads to .1 degree F, and seems pretty accurate. Ron (Glasair Super II F/T under construction at C77 near RFD) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
> >>>The avionics master was born in the mid 60's, long > before we learned how to build robust solid state > systems an quantify the gremlins that were supposed > to be lurking around every bush waiting for a vulnerable > transistor to come along.<< > >I thought the main reason for the Avionics master was to reduce the >wear-and-tear on the switches and volume controls of the individual radios. Over the years, aviation folklore has conjured up lots of reasons for avionics master switches. The REAL reason was to "protect" radios from things we didn't understand either in terms of what stresses were applied to radios to build radios that didn't care. . . . with respect to "wear and tear" . . . a switch or volume control that is not used regularly and sits for weeks if not months at a time getting sun baked and temperature/humidity cycled is more likely to become flaky than one that is operated regularly. >And also to make it easier to remember to turn all of them on and off. "Remembering" is for folk who don't use checklists. . . >. . . . Had >both problems on our old Cherokee. Incidentally, The "approved" avionics >master for our 182 was very complex - as I recall, they must have been >worried about redundancy or something. Also, some Cessna 177's had a >"hidden" master that shut off the avionics buss during cranking. Was all >this too much worrying over nothing? . . . the "worry" in 1965 was that some stress from the electrical system was killing brand new radios. The hypothesis suggested that "spikes" from the starter were zapping relatively fragile, 30 volt germanium devices that were just showing up in production radios. In retrospect, "spikes" were no more likely then than they are now and brownout seems the more likely cause. 35+ years later transistors are silicon and 1000x more robust than their early ancestors. Further, we've managed to learn and document a better understanding of what DC power generation and distribution system produces in terms of potential hazards along with ways and means of designing appliances that will live happily in that environment. Like buggy whips, carbide headlamps and starter cranks on the front of the engine, the avionics master switch SHOULD become a short paragraph in the pages of aviation history . . . unless one is deeply committed to tradition and folklore whereupon the avionics master is still a topic for long and heated debates . . . even on the part of folks who should know better. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: RCT-1 and more than one wire . . .
> ><< For example, you can put up to four 22AWG > wires into a red terminal. Multiple conductors can be > connected into all of the crimped terminals. The trick is > to make sure that the stripped ends of all conductors > stay even with each other as the bundle is inserted into > the terminal. >> > >Thanks for the info on computing the wire sizing. I just bench tested using >multiple wires in a Red Fast On using your formula and can't get the >insulation to fit in the connector. I am using MS 22759/16 wire. What combination are you trying? I just went to the workbench and installed four 22AWG wires (mil-w-22759/16) into a single red PIDG terminal. Photos and narrative for this exercise can be viewed at: http://209.134.106.21/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html Are you using PIDG-style terminals? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
> >> I thought the main reason for the Avionics master was to reduce the >> wear-and-tear on the switches and volume controls of the individual >radios. >> And also to make it easier to remember to turn all of them on and off. > >OK, I'm convinced to not go with an avionics master. Now does this mean I >have to turn on every radio at start up then turn them all off at shut down? >Can't they just stay on? They can stay on . . . won't hurt them. But it would be better to exercise the switches once per flight to keep them working well . . . you probably won't have more than two or three total and it doesn't take much time. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Basic Wiring Questions
> >> >I'm working off Figure Z-8 and have come across a few questions. > >Is there anywhere on the net where I can download a newer version of this >drwing? > >> Later versions of that drawing call out a 2-10 . . . double >> pole, three position, ON-ON-ON function. This allows the single >> switch to mimic the function of the nearly sacred split rocker >> master switch. Bottom position - ALL OFF, mid position - BATTERY >> ONLY, upper position, BATTY and ALTERNATOR ON. > >So does this take the place of the alternator breaker? No, you still need breakers for each of the alternator crowbar OV systems. I put them right next to their respective master switches. >Fuseable Links - Do they need to loop off on their own or can they cruise >along in a wiring bundle? a wire bundle. >> >Does the voltage regulator and the LR-3 go in the engine compartment? >> >> Wherever you want to put it for best accessability. > >I'm going to put the voltage regulator and the LR-3 in the engine >compartment. I hope there is no sensitivity to moisture as under the cowl >might get a little damp when flying in rain. Some thing I foresee a fair >amount of around here. High on the firewall of most airplanes is pretty dry. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor
> >Bob, > >Are the brass nuts and bronze lockwashers items that can be purchased >locally? I have been trying to find them to replace a nut and washer that I >have missplaced. I know that as soon as I find replacements...they will >show up! ; ) > >Jerry Calvert >Edmond Ok >-6 I had to order them for use in our business. I have them in stock in both 5/16-24 and 5/16-18 for battery and starter contactors. Did you buy contactors from us? If so, they should have come with brass/bronze hardware and all you need is a replacement for a lost set. If you have brand-x parts, you might want to consider replacing all of the steel parts with brass/bronze parts. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring questions- Dave Richey
> >I am thinking about placing the main fuse block on the left side of the fuselage, aft or under the throttle quadrant, right about where the pilots arm rest would be. The essential bus is to be located at about the same location, but on the right side of the fuselage. The 16awg wire going from the main buss to the essential buss in diagram Z1 has an asterisk, indicating it should be six inches or less. What changes should be made to the lead to allow the essential buss to be located approximately 4 - 5 feet away from the main buss? Would running this lead along the back of the instrument panel create problems, I could run the wire down the side, under the front seat and back up the other side? Is the location of the silicon diode, (biased towards the main fuse block or the essential fuse block) of any importance? I'd really like to see these two fuse blocks right next to each other. Have you asked around as to where other folks are mounting them? > >In talking to John Harmon, he indicated many of the guys are using impulse couplers on both engine magneto's. Will this require any changes in the way the right and left, off-start-on (2-5) switches are wired? You can use single pole switches for mags and a push-button to allow interlocking the starter functions to prevent inadvertent operation of the starter with a non-impulse coupled mag turned on. > >Finally, in the Harmon Rocket, the battery is located aft of the rear passenger seat. The main battery contactor is located six inches further aft. I was hoping to use a couple of B and C Specialties super flexible battery connectors (4awg). The battery plus to battery contactor would be about 12 inches long, while the battery negative to ground on the main fuselage longeron would need to be about 24 inches long. Is 4awg wire large enough for these applications? Yes. > I was also going to run the main 2awg lead along the left main longeron, the 14awg essential bus alternate feed along the right longeron and the strobe light wiring from the strobe power unit, located next to the battery, under the seats, along the fuselage floor to just forward of the main wing spar, were they will split and run out the wings. Do you envision any interference problems with this basic layout? I think that will work fine. Are you putting a fusible link in the e-bus alternate feed line or installing a battery bus fuse block? You might want to put in a fuse block so that you can easily add electronic ignition later. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net>
Subject: Internally regulated alternator
Date: Oct 06, 2001
I've tried to send this request for your opinion to your e-mail but have failed so I will try the list. I built an RV-6A in 97 and on your advise installed B&C alternators, regulators, and starter. Quality equipment for sure, but at a price. I am now building an RV-3 and have decided to buy an engine from Aero Sport Power who normally supplies an un-modified Nippon Denso alternator that is internally regulated. It is my understanding that B&C's alternator is a modified Nippon Denso. Bart Lalonde of Aero Sport makes the point that these alternators, even with on/off instead of linear regulation, run in cars trouble free for many thousands of miles under harsher conditions of use. My own experience has been that in my 40+ years of driving, I have never had an alternator problem. A B&C alternator with the linear regulator would cost an additional $440. And, I'm told you have a design for crow-bar system that could be added to give this protection with an internally regulated alternator. I feel B&C is a high quality product but I'm thinking the standard Nippon Denso may be a satisfactory tradeoff considering substantial cost differential? What do you think and are there any other things to consider in making a decision. The Skytech Vs. B&C starter issue is covered in the Archives so I don't know whether to bring that one up again. Suffice it to say, I understand Skytech quality has improved somewhat lately and Aero Sport's considerable experience with their customers has been good. The $170 cost differential also looks very enticing. Also, do you still provide custom wiring service for a fee and how can I contact you by phone? Thanks for any help. Rick Fogerson. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor
Date: Oct 07, 2001
Yes, I bought them from B&C. I need some other items, I will give them a call tomorrow see about getting a replacement nut and washer. Thanks, jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Master Contactor > > > > >Bob, > > > >Are the brass nuts and bronze lockwashers items that can be purchased > >locally? I have been trying to find them to replace a nut and washer that I > >have missplaced. I know that as soon as I find replacements...they will > >show up! ; ) > > > >Jerry Calvert > >Edmond Ok > >-6 > > I had to order them for use in our business. I have > them in stock in both 5/16-24 and 5/16-18 for battery > and starter contactors. Did you buy contactors from > us? If so, they should have come with brass/bronze hardware > and all you need is a replacement for a lost set. If > you have brand-x parts, you might want to consider replacing > all of the steel parts with brass/bronze parts. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
Date: Oct 07, 2001
> Like buggy whips, carbide headlamps and starter cranks > on the front of the engine, the avionics master switch > SHOULD become a short paragraph in the pages of aviation > history . . . unless one is deeply committed to tradition > and folklore whereupon the avionics master is still > a topic for long and heated debates . . . even on the > part of folks who should know better. ...or unless certain instruments or avionics cannot tolerate the low voltage caused by cranking (9.7 on my plane). Randy Lervold www.rv-8.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Aucountry(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 07, 2001
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
In a message dated 10/7/01 11:13:21 AM, wjoke(at)home.com writes: << > > I thought the main reason for the Avionics master was to reduce the > > wear-and-tear on the switches and volume controls of the individual > radios. > > And also to make it easier to remember to turn all of them on and off. > >> if those switches aren't exercized regularly, corrosion builds up in the contacts. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Aucountry(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 07, 2001
Subject: alternator fuse/circuit breaker
Bob, Was talking to an electrical engineer and discussed the purpose of the 50/60 amp circuit breaker for the alternator. Question #1: If an alternator can never put out more than its rated current, what is the purpose of the circuit breaker? Also, the current state of development of alternator controllers enables them to be capable of monitoring over voltage, under voltage, etc. Question #2: What is the purpose of the alternator field interupt (i.e., Master switch to turn on the field)? My 2001 Citabria has neither of the above and is certified. Question #2: Are other certified aircraft sans the alternator circuit breaker and field master switch? Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Internally regulated alternator
> > >I've tried to send this request for your opinion to your e-mail but have >failed so I will try the list. >I built an RV-6A in 97 and on your advise installed B&C alternators, >regulators, and starter. Quality equipment for sure, but at a price. I >am now building an RV-3 and have decided to buy an engine from Aero >Sport Power who normally supplies an un-modified Nippon Denso alternator >that is internally regulated. It is my understanding that B&C's >alternator is a modified Nippon Denso. Bart Lalonde of Aero Sport makes >the point that these alternators, even with on/off instead of linear >regulation, run in cars trouble free for many thousands of miles under >harsher conditions of use. My own experience has been that in my 40+ >years of driving, I have never had an alternator problem. >A B&C alternator with the linear regulator would cost an additional >$440. And, I'm told you have a design for crow-bar system that could be >added to give this protection with an internally regulated alternator. See: http://209.134.106.21/articles/bleadov.pdf >I feel B&C is a high quality product but I'm thinking the standard >Nippon Denso may be a satisfactory tradeoff considering substantial cost >differential? What do you think and are there any other things to >consider in making a decision. Lots of folk are flying the system you propose and will swear by them. Give it a try. >The Skytech Vs. B&C starter issue is covered in the Archives so I don't >know whether to bring that one up again. Suffice it to say, I >understand Skytech quality has improved somewhat lately and Aero Sport's >considerable experience with their customers has been good. The $170 >cost differential also looks very enticing. The B&C should be the first and last starter you put on the airplane. I don't think anyone in the lightweight starter business can hold a candle to the value of B&C's starters. I hear that Continental is finally going to put the B&C starter on their IO-240 . . . after several abortive attempts to clone the B&C under other labels. There's a case where I think the cost differential is a justifiable decision. >Also, do you still provide custom wiring service for a fee and how can I >contact you by phone? No, gave that service up when I got buried under about 10 years worth of backlog. My numbers are still up on the website at: http://www.aeroelectric.com along with a number of discussions on starters in the articles section. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: Bill Irvine <wgirvine(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ground power receptacle
> >If adding a ground power receptacle, does it wire > >into the hot side of the master contactor? > > Yes, I prefer this connection because it allows > you to charge a battery without having any other > power applied to the aircraft. Well, yes. But if you have a dead battery and need a jump-start, the ground battery will dump most (or a lot) of it's energy into the dead on-board battery instead of into your starter. Wiring the ground power receptacle to the aircraft side of the master contactor will allow you to start your engine, flip on the master switch and let your alternator recharge your battery. If you want an easy way to trickle-charge your battery on the ground, you could use a small quick-disconnect plug and jack. Something like a 2-conductor headphone jack installed in a convenient place, wired directly to the battery with 18 gauge (or so) wire. Either way will work, just different philosophies. Your choice.... Bill Irvine Lancaster, CA C-310 http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
> >> Like buggy whips, carbide headlamps and starter cranks >> on the front of the engine, the avionics master switch >> SHOULD become a short paragraph in the pages of aviation >> history . . . unless one is deeply committed to tradition >> and folklore whereupon the avionics master is still >> a topic for long and heated debates . . . even on the >> part of folks who should know better. > > >...or unless certain instruments or avionics cannot tolerate the low voltage >caused by cranking (9.7 on my plane). What devices are having trouble? How do they manifest the problems? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor
> >Yes, I bought them from B&C. I need some other items, I will give them a >call tomorrow see about getting a replacement nut and washer. They're not really set up to handle little orders . . . they use UPS ground for everything. I'll drop a set of nuts 'n washers in an envelope and mail them in the morning. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
Date: Oct 07, 2001
> >...or unless certain instruments or avionics cannot tolerate the low voltage > >caused by cranking (9.7 on my plane). > > What devices are having trouble? How do they > manifest the problems? > > Bob . . . I was forced to re-wire my MicroEncoder to my avionics master because the low voltage during cranking forced a system reset requiring you to reset the kollsman setting etc. And although I have not personally experienced it, I was advised by others before me that the Navaid has a problem with low voltage also. Randy Lervold ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Two Speed Elevator Trim
>> I came up with this deal originally and it has been working >> like a charm for 175 hrs. on my 8. What do you need to know? >> However, I like Bob's idea of adding a micro switch to the >> flap mechanism better. A SPDT micro switch would eliminate >> the necessity of adding a 12V relay since the Herga is a >> SPST device. >OK, I'm sure I can figure out how to get the flap mechanism on one side to >trip a micro switch. Then what? > >Norman Hunger What kind of trim actuator are you using Norm? >> >>I think that you have it backwards Bob, you want >>high speed trim when the airplane is flying slowly >>and slow speed trim when at cruise. >> >>Bill Hmmm . . . must have been standing on my head when I wrote that. You're correct of course. There's another option. I did a dual-tab acutator system for a large anphibian using a pair of Mac tab actuators. We used a comparator on one of the position indicator potentiomenters to sense when the tabs were in the approach/departure range and then caused the system to switch to high speed. The first multi speed system I did was for the Lear 55 and it used a Microswitch inside the pitch trim actuator to sense the low indicated airspeed trim range. Right after I did that system for Lear, I wrote an SAE paper suggesting that IAS values taken from the air data system could be used to schedule trim speed in accordance with present indicated airspeed such that holding the pitch trim switch for, say 1 second, would give the same relative kick in the seat of the pants irrespective of airspeed. Nobody ever took me up on the idea back then (about 1980). I think that the pitch trim actuator on Premier is built and controlled by the same folk that did the autopilot . . . it's a brushless DC motor system that could easily be speed scheduled in accordance Nowadays, there are some really inexpensive pressure transducers and microcontrollers that could be used to do just the task in homebuilts. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: alternator fuse/circuit breaker
> >Bob, >Was talking to an electrical engineer and discussed the purpose of the 50/60 >amp circuit breaker for the alternator. Question #1: If an alternator can >never put out more than its rated current, what is the purpose of the circuit >breaker? the same as any circuit breaker in any other part of the airplane . . . to protect wires. In this case, the potential fault is shorted diodes inside the alternator which would product fault currents in the 700-1500 amp range. >Also, the current state of development of alternator controllers enables them >to be capable of monitoring over voltage, under voltage, etc. Question #2: >What is the purpose of the alternator field interupt (i.e., Master switch to >turn on the field)? There are lots of new regulators designed for alternator service in automobiles that CLAIM many if not all of the features you've listed. However, without engineering data that allows me to confirm adequacy of any of these claims, I'm unable to endorse them. I've encountered several systems claims for the product. In an airplane, you need a way for the pilot to make any and all parts of the electrical system inert . . . this generally means panel mounted switches that provide absolute control over batteries and engine driven power sources. >My 2001 Citabria has neither of the above and is certified. Question #2: Are >other certified aircraft sans the alternator circuit breaker and field master >switch? Are you telling us that your alternator is ON any time the engine is running and the pilot has no way to shut it down? Just because it's "certified" doesn't guarantee that it's either good or right. The Bonanza uses current limiters on the firewall like I show in all of our power distribution diagrams. Soooooo, no breakers in Bonanzas and Barons but we still protect the wires. I'm not familiar with other production aircraft. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Kellar" <rkellar(at)mediaone.net>
Subject: Bridged Amp Meter
Date: Oct 07, 2001
I have installed Van's 40 amp externally bridged(Shunted) ampmeter in the following manner: Power from the alternator to one end of the bridge...#8 wire from this end to the Main Buss...#4 wire from the other side of the bridge continues to the supply side of the starter contactor (not across this solonoid)...through the firewall to the master contactor...across this solonoid to the battery. My problem is that I cannot get the gauge to work in the proper manner. Intuition says that when I am drawing current to the main buss from the battery, the gauge will read negative and it does, however when the engine is started and the alternator is running and supplying power (confirmed by a temporary installed internally shunted amp meter and the voltage is perfect at 13 to 14 volts) the gauge reads more negative in an inappropriate manner. I tried switching the leads at the bridge however that made absolutely no difference. As soon as the radios are turned on the meter goes to about 30 amps negative and then cycles frequenly up and down on a 1-2 second cycle..from 20 to 40 amps negative. I wired the gauge according the directions with the lead wires to the correct terminals and the 12 volt supply and gournd to the others. I have tried a new set from Van's and the same results are noted. (They didn't have any ideas either). Any suggestions...help is needed. Robert Kellar RV6A N642RK now flying for 5.4hrs. Big Grin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Aucountry(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2001
Subject: Re: alternator fuse/circuit breaker
In a message dated 10/7/01 9:43:21 PM, nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com writes: << Are you telling us that your alternator is ON any time the engine is running and the pilot has no way to shut it down? >> yes ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor
Date: Oct 08, 2001
Bob, Since I need a few wiring items, I thought they might include a nut and washer with the order. Let me see if they can help me and if not, I will drop you a message. Appreciate your help! Jerry Calvert -6 ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Master Contactor > > > > >Yes, I bought them from B&C. I need some other items, I will give them a > >call tomorrow see about getting a replacement nut and washer. > > They're not really set up to handle little > orders . . . they use UPS ground for everything. > I'll drop a set of nuts 'n washers in an envelope > and mail them in the morning. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: Avionics Master
Date: Oct 08, 2001
>>>And also to make it easier to remember to turn all of them on and off. "Remembering" is for folk who don't use checklists. . . << Oh, oh, here we go.. Making things simpler for the pilot is always a good thing. Crashes happen all the time when someone forgets to switch tanks while other planes have a "both" position - 150's and 172's don't crash because they are on the wrong tank - it's not possible. You are saying that if one forgets to turn off one of the radios and it gets blasted he deserves it. What can be forgotten will be forgotten eventually, checklist or not, student pilot or Air Transport Pilot. One problem I had with a radio is perhaps relevant: I found that the KX155/165's we had on our Cessna would occasionally lose memory if the supply was pulled down sharply enough. From what I could tell, the power supplies in the radios were all designed for the power to be interrupted and had capacitors, etc that powered-down the micros gently so they could go into a reset mode. However, a large, sudden load applied to the battery (in this case the gear motor, but a starter motor would do it even better) with the radios turned on would occasionally cause the radios to lose all memory. That's what I would worry about with leaving the radios on during cranking. >>...or unless certain instruments or avionics cannot tolerate the low voltage caused by cranking (9.7 on my plane).<< Any device will tolerate low voltage - it's the sharp negative voltage transient that is the problem. Either I would like to be convinced that all the equipment will tolerate cranking loads or I will put an avionics master in my project. Incidentally, on the post about commercial jets, they don't use the battery to start the engines - but what about the APU, which can be started off the battery? Is that started with all the radios on? Just a guess, but I'll bet not. Gary Casey C177RG, Lancair ES ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: Two-speed trim
Date: Oct 08, 2001
>>Why not do it simpler and less expensively? Mount a micro-switch on the flap mechanism such that with flaps at full-up, you have high speed trim. Just bumping the flaps down the smallest amount (which you can do at any speed) will get you low speed operation. The Lears do this. 0-10 degrees of flap gets you high speed, anything higher gets you low speed.<< Excellent idea! Thanks. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: OAT indicator
Date: Oct 08, 2001
"Cost seems like it was about $10 at Radio Shack. Archer P/N 277-0123. I'm going to try that. Reads to .1 degree F, and seems pretty accurate. Ron" I bought three and set them all up together, (indoor and outdoor sensors). The greatest difference was 2Cdeg so they can be pretty accurate for this use. It pays to check on the "Temperature Rise Coefficient" - the factor which describes by how much the temp overreads because of airflow heating. I think under 5Cdeg at 200 mph, but in airline use on some aircraft it can be up to 25Cdeg rise. Nowadays most manufacturers build temp recovery sensors which cool it down again by design. Ferg Europa A064 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
> >>>>And also to make it easier to remember to turn all of them on and off. > > > "Remembering" is for folk who don't use checklists. . . ><< > >Oh, oh, here we go.. > >Making things simpler for the pilot is always a good thing. Crashes happen >all the time when someone forgets to switch tanks while other planes have a >"both" position - 150's and 172's don't crash because they are on the wrong >tank - it's not possible. You are saying that if one forgets to turn off >one of the radios and it gets blasted he deserves it. You're putting words in my mouth . . . first, radios don't get "blasted" by airplanes. Second, I would never suggest that ignorant or inattentive pilots are deserving of any misery that might befall them as a result of their human shortcomings. >What can be forgotten >will be forgotten eventually, checklist or not, student pilot or Air >Transport Pilot. Are we saying that the time honored checklist philosophy is flawed? Are we assuming that in spite of every effort we've applied to improving the art and science of building radios for airplanes that the risk of "blasting" is not still not zero; therefore the avionics master switch should be a part of the well considered design? >One problem I had with a radio is perhaps relevant: I found that the >KX155/165's we had on our Cessna would occasionally lose memory if the >supply was pulled down sharply enough. From what I could tell, the power >supplies in the radios were all designed for the power to be interrupted and >had capacitors, etc that powered-down the micros gently so they could go >into a reset mode. However, a large, sudden load applied to the battery (in >this case the gear motor, but a starter motor would do it even better) with >the radios turned on would occasionally cause the radios to lose all memory. >That's what I would worry about with leaving the radios on during cranking. Yes . . . there ARE radios and other electro-whizzies out there that stumble when the aircraft's electrical system is doing it's normal thing. How should we . . . as responsible and thoughtful designers of the world's finest aircraft . . . deal with that? >>>...or unless certain instruments or avionics cannot tolerate the low >voltage >caused by cranking (9.7 on my plane).<< > >Any device will tolerate low voltage - it's the sharp negative voltage >transient that is the problem. > >Either I would like to be convinced that all the equipment will tolerate >cranking loads or I will put an avionics master in my project. Gee, I'd really recommend that you get convinced . . . DO-160 has been around for decades and it speaks to all of these issues. See: http://209.134.106.21/articles/do160.html You can call the manufacturer of the equipment you propose to install and double check their willingness join the vast majority of manufacturers who have successfully delivered new product to the aviation, marine and automotive markets for the past 20+ years. What are you going to do if you find that some device DOESN'T perform as it should? In my not so humble opinion, we have avionics masters, etc. etc. in order to accommodate FAULTY designs. It's an individual choice. But I'll suggest that until we become responsible consumers and hold a manufacturer's feet to the fire for not being a responsible supplier, we'll continue to pay good money for products that DO NOT live up to their marketing hype. >Incidentally, on the post about commercial jets, they don't use the battery >to start the engines - but what about the APU, which can be started off the >battery? Is that started with all the radios on? Just a guess, but I'll >bet not. There's a wide variation from airframe to airframe as to how electrical systems and assorted components are operated. It's this same VARIABILITY that makes the current art and practice a poor source of information as to the FACTS surrounding the PHYSICS of the matter. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: alternator fuse/circuit breaker
> > >In a message dated 10/7/01 9:43:21 PM, nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com writes: > ><< Are you telling us that your alternator is ON any > time the engine is running and the pilot has no > way to shut it down? > >> > >yes Interesting! Do you have copies of the electrical system's wiring diagrams or know where I can find them? Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Bridged Amp Meter
> >I have installed Van's 40 amp externally bridged(Shunted) ampmeter in >the following manner: Power from the alternator to one end of the >bridge...#8 wire from this end to the Main Buss...#4 wire from the other >side of the bridge continues to the supply side of the starter contactor >(not across this solonoid)...through the firewall to the master >contactor...across this solonoid to the battery. My problem is that I >cannot get the gauge to work in the proper manner. Intuition says that >when I am drawing current to the main buss from the battery, the gauge >will read negative and it does, however when the engine is started and >the alternator is running and supplying power (confirmed by a temporary >installed internally shunted amp meter and the voltage is perfect at 13 >to 14 volts) the gauge reads more negative in an inappropriate manner. >I tried switching the leads at the bridge however that made absolutely >no difference. As soon as the radios are turned on the meter goes to >about 30 amps negative and then cycles frequenly up and down on a 1-2 >second cycle..from 20 to 40 amps negative. I wired the gauge according >the directions with the lead wires to the correct terminals and the 12 >volt supply and gournd to the others. I have tried a new set from Van's >and the same results are noted. (They didn't have any ideas either). >Any suggestions...help is needed. Robert Kellar RV6A N642RK now flying >for 5.4hrs. Big Grin. You have wired a (-)0(+) BATTERY AMMETER as an ALTERNATOR LOADMETER. In this mode, the device will indicate only what current the alternator is delivering to the system. This explains the "one sided" readings you're seeing. The instrument is designed to be used as the classic BATTERY AMMETER that has been used in various vehicle DC power systems since the 1930's. I really wish those things would go away . . . to make a BATTERY AMMETER work you need to compromise the design of the system with respect to abatement of noise and magnetic interference to goodies on the panel. Our power distribution diagrams have encouraged builders to modernize their electrical systems with (1) active notification of low voltage (2) expanded scale -or- digital voltmeters capable of displaying meaningful data and (3) if you want an ammeter, make it an alternator loadmeter. Except for the need to diagnose problems in flight, an airplane could be flown very handily with just a low volts warning light. This is because we KNOW that if the light is out, the alternator is carrying all system loads. If the light is LIT, then our periodic and preventative maintenance of the battery ASSURES us that we can operate essential goodies for duration of fuel aboard . . . Adding all those extra pointers and indicators on the panel may be sexy but their presence or absence in a thoughtfully designed and maintained airplane will have no benefits with respect to the outcome of any given flight. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
> > >> >...or unless certain instruments or avionics cannot tolerate the low >voltage >> >caused by cranking (9.7 on my plane). >> >> What devices are having trouble? How do they >> manifest the problems? >> >> Bob . . . > > >I was forced to re-wire my MicroEncoder to my avionics master because the >low voltage during cranking forced a system reset requiring you to reset the >kollsman setting etc. And although I have not personally experienced it, I >was advised by others before me that the Navaid has a problem with low >voltage also. Hmmm . . . I've spoken with Ron Mowrer in years past about this . . . I'm surprised and disappointed that this characteristic has not been designed out of the product. The last time I looked at a Navaid, it was a totally analog design and really shouldn't have a problem getting stood up after a brownout event. I've always said that it's a personal choice. We can elect to put up with idiosyncrasies of poor design -OR- we can put pressure on suppliers to strive for responsible service to their customers. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor
> >Bob, Since I need a few wiring items, I thought they might include a nut >and washer with the order. Let me see if they can help me and if not, I >will drop you a message. Mailman's already been here. If you can use them, fine. Otherwise throw them in your 20-year box . . . Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Marshall Robert <rmarshall@pilatus-aircraft.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
Date: Oct 08, 2001
This is an interesting topic for me. If DO160 requires qualified electronic equipment to cope with all the voltage dips, surges and spikes on the electrical supply, then what specification dictates that the generation system should not deliver voltage dips, surges and spikes of even greater magnitude. This is surely a function of the generator AND the regulator working together, not to mention the magnitude of the load switching and speed changes. Bob M DO-160 has been around for decades and it speaks to all of these issues. See: http://209.134.106.21/articles/do160.html You can call the manufacturer of the equipment you propose to install and double check their willingness join the vast majority of manufacturers who have successfully delivered new product to the aviation, marine and automotive markets for the past 20+ years. What are you going to do if you find that some device DOESN'T perform as it should? In my not so humble opinion, we have avionics masters, etc. etc. in order to accommodate FAULTY designs. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ground power receptacle
> >> >If adding a ground power receptacle, does it wire >> >into the hot side of the master contactor? >> >> Yes, I prefer this connection because it allows >> you to charge a battery without having any other >> power applied to the aircraft. > >Well, yes. But if you have a dead battery and need a >jump-start, the ground battery will dump most (or a >lot) of it's energy into the dead on-board battery >instead of into your starter. Not so. There may be a short duration flow of energy from ground battery into ship's battery but it's not significant. Remember, it takes 14V+ to charge a battery that delivers energy at 12.5V and below. Hooking a 12.5V battery to a dead battery will indeed produce some current flow but it's small compared to what's needed to get the engine going. > Wiring the ground power >receptacle to the aircraft side of the master >contactor will allow you to start your engine, flip on >the master switch and let your alternator recharge >your battery. I've never wanted to run an engine to charge a battery. On many occasions I've run a cord out to the airplane with the notion of attaching a battery charger to the aircraft to charge a battery -OR- a ground power source to run the ship's systems for maintenance. Engines are not efficient or low-hazard sources of power to charge a battery. >If you want an easy way to trickle-charge your battery >on the ground, you could use a small quick-disconnect >plug and jack. Something like a 2-conductor headphone >jack installed in a convenient place, wired directly >to the battery with 18 gauge (or so) wire. Don't even own a "trickle" charger and never had one while we ran the airport. When airplane down-time translates to zero cash flow, you need to get the critter running. >Either way will work, just different philosophies. >Your choice.... True . . . there are airplanes out there wired both ways. For me, the notion of being able to connect to the battery without powering the airplane -AND- having ship's battery always connected in parallel advantages. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------------- ( "We have two ears and one mouth so that we ) ( can listen twice as much as we speak." ) ( - Epictetus ) ---------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Aucountry(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2001
Subject: Re: alternator fuse/circuit breaker
In a message dated 10/8/01 8:32:40 AM, nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com writes: << Interesting! Do you have copies of the electrical system's wiring diagrams or know where I can find them? >> I'll check. send me your persoal email and I will send it to you if I have it.


September 15, 2001 - October 08, 2001

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ai