AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ak

October 22, 2001 - November 13, 2001



      
      Mike ( and Bob)
      I tried your suggestion. It works!!!
      Richard Dudley
      
      Mike Nellis wrote:
      > 
      > 
      > Try http://209.134.106.21/
      > 
      > Mike
      > 
      > 
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2001
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP . . .
Mike (and Bob) #2 I did get the Aeroelectric website, but none of the links work. I get an error message that says the it can't find that URL. RHDudley Mike Nellis wrote: > > > Try http://209.134.106.21/ > > Mike > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP . . .
Date: Oct 22, 2001
>>Try http://209.134.106.21/<< That worked! Thanks... Harley Doing it right is no excuse for not meeting the schedule _ Harley Dixon \ ------------------------------ \ | --- www.AgelessWings.com --- I<=====> ------------------------------ / | _/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP . . .
Date: Oct 22, 2001
>>Try http://209.134.106.21/ << >>I did get the Aeroelectric website, but none of the links work. I get an error message that says the it can't find that URL.<< I didn't get that far when I replied that it worked. I did get the homepage, and I checked the articles link. On further checking, about half of the links on the homepage don't work...(Page not Found error). The other half do. And on the "Article Reprints, Newsgroup Threads, CAD Drawing Downloads" link, almost all of the links I checked work, although a couple didn't. All the pdf files loaded normally! Harley Doing it right is no excuse for not meeting the schedule _ Harley Dixon \ ------------------------------ \ | --- www.AgelessWings.com --- I<=====> ------------------------------ / | _/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: RE: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP .. .
Date: Oct 22, 2001
>>I used neo-trace and got 209.162.138.16<< Windows Properties reports the same thing for the "Apache" page (http://209.162.138.16/) Windows reports http://209.134.106.21/ on The AeroElectric Connection Harley Doing it right is no excuse for not meeting the schedule _ Harley Dixon \ ------------------------------ \ | --- www.AgelessWings.com --- I<=====> ------------------------------ / | _/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2001
From: William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP . . .
> >Mike ( and Bob) >I tried your suggestion. It works!!! >Richard Dudley > >Mike Nellis wrote: >> >> >> > > Try http://209.134.106.21/ >> > > Mike Hi - I tried your suggestion and got to the "old" AEC web page where only two links at the site index work. They are: 1. "Click here to sign-up for participation on the new AeroElectric List" 2. "Article Reprints, Newsgroup Threads, CAD Drawing Downloads" The neo-trace (209.162.138.16) just got me to the "new" web page. I'll try again later - Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2001
From: Dennis Golden <dgolden@golden-consulting.com>
Subject: Re: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP . . .
Mike Nellis wrote: > > > Try http://209.134.106.21/ Mine resolves to: www.aeroelectric.com. 342187 IN CNAME aeroelectric.com. aeroelectric.com. 342188 IN A 209.162.135.33 > Try http://209.134.106.21/ > > Mike > Regards, Dennis -- Dennis Golden Golden Consulting Services, Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2001
From: Chris Good <chrisjgood(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Noise in Audio Circuit
Ulrich, I had a similar noise problem with my RST audio panel. As a test, try powering the audio panel from a separate 12 volt battery to see if the noise goes away. This completely fixed it for me. I then used a 5 amp filter, from an auto parts store, on the audio panel power line as a final solution. Regards, Chris Good, http://www.rv.supermatrix.com West Bend, WI RV-6A N86CG, 295 hrs --- ulf3(at)juno.com wrote: > > Bob and others with higher knowledge... > > I am finalizing the wiring of an all metal, IFR, all electric plane... > Everything electrical works and tests out fine EXCEPT noise in the audio > system. I used shielded wires (Tefzel purchased from Spruce) > for the magnetos, for the audio (mikes and phones) circuits, for all the > engine sensors, and for harnessing of > the radios to the audio panel and to the VOR/ILS/GS indicator. All other > wire is unshielded Tefzel. > > The mike and phone jacks are isolated from the airframe using B&C's > insulating > washers. The audio panel is an RST 565 panel w/ a VOX 4-place intercom. > The unit was calibrated by J. Weir (RTS Eng'g.) and declared "within > specs". > This plane has mountains of wiring. Aside from the usual IFR getup (RC > Allen AI & DG), and dual > radios, it has dual alternators, electric flaps, electric trim, an S-Tec > System 20 Autopilot and Rocky Mountain Instruments > uMonitor and uEncoder, with remote compass, carb temp sensor, OAT sensor, > 4 each CHT & EGT sensors, etc.... > > The noise seems to come from the following sources in decreasing order of > magnitude > (I can tell since these are all individually switched and noise occurs > when they are put online): > > uMonitor Backlight > RC Allen AI > RC Allen DG > Ice-box cooling fan > uEncoder Backlight > S-Tec TurnCoordinator > Garmin GNS-430 > S-Tec Servo motor (when A/P is engaged and moving the ailerons) > The AeroElectric/ B&C light dimming control when near the mid position > (it sounds like a windshield wiper > arm scraping softly on glass in the headsets - not very loud but very > unpleasant). This control powers a > dozen lights/instruments. BTW I twisted the leads from the dimmer control > to the unit as specified. > > > Some Clues: > > All grounds (except the taillight , wingmounted landing light, pitot > heat, nav lights, and strobes which > are locally grounded to the structure) are terminated at Bob's forest of > tabs on the panel. This includes > the audio grounds (low connections). > > I have done limited testing of the radios with a hand held transceiver, > but so far the noise does not seem to > be caused by the radios, rather it sounds like it is in the audio > (intercom/ phone amplifier) circuit. > > The RST audio panel had three ground inputs. I understand (from Bob > Weir) that they all end up at the > same place inside the unit and can be used to ground the unit to the A/C > and to ground the mike and phone > audio circuits interchangeably. > > The wiring had not been neatened up yet nor tied into bundles as I wish > to finalize testing (and get rid of this noise) > before completing this step. Obviously with this many wires and 30 > circuits (all to ATO fuses except the fat alternator > fuse in the engine compartment and two alternator breakers/switches) > there is a wild web of wiring behind the panel at this > time. > > I understand that the backlights for the LCD's (RMI instruments) use > inverters to convert > 12 vDC to AC current and the noise I hear is quite high pitched (and > annoying) from these backlights. > Note that aside from the backlight induced noise the RMI units are very > quiet (do not induce noise in the audio circuit). > > Engine is not ready to run, so I don't know if alternators are (will be) > creating noise. > > Wings are not on so I don't know if strobes are (will be) creating noise. > > > Some Questions: > > Should I use shielded wires to feed power to and ground the gyros and the > fan? > > Should I run mike and phone audio grounds to the audio panel (instead to > the panel's forest of tabs) and only run > one ground wire from the audio panel to the main grounding point (forest > of tabs)? > > The avionics shop that harnessed the radios for me left the audio wire > shields unconnected to the audio panel. > These are wires that are soldered to the shields of the wires from the > radios, beyond the connectors they transition to non-shielded > wires about 6-inches long to the audio panel. Is this OK? > > Any help is most appreciated. > > Sorry this post had to be this long, but with this many potential > culprits I seemed best to provide details. > > > Ulrich > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP . . .
> >Can you provide the IP address of your site so we go >direct to it rather than wait for our ISP to sync...? Yes. Go here first http://209.162.138.16/ and then click on the AeroElectric Connection link further down in the page. This seems to be getting everyone on the new location. I don't understand why it's taking so long for this change to filter through the system. Moves in the past have been pretty much recorded world-wide in a day or two. Sorry for the inconvenience. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
Subject: Pulse-Width-Modulated Dimmers
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Can someone recommend a source for a Pulse-Width-Modulated dimmer to use for my cockpit lighting? I'm interested in it to dim stuff like LED's and possibly experiment with electroluminescent too. Van's lamp dimmer is just a variable voltage system, which works fine for incandenscent lights but not so well for everything else. Theoretically I should be able to dim both LED's and incandescent lights on the same circuit using PWM. Kitplanes had a series a while back on how to 'roll your own' PWM dimmer, but I'm just wondering if there's something already made that I can purchase? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
Subject: Relays for Infinity Stick
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Guys, I'm wondering what relays are being used by those of you who have the Infinity stick grips in your RV's? The Infinity website recommends the MAC relays for the MAC electric trim system, and references some Radio Shack P/N's for other relays (for flaps, landing lights, etc.). Van's also sells some sort of remote flap control mechanism which I assume has relays in it?? Does anybody have any advice on pros or cons for different relays that could be used? I talked to a guy in Chicago who had an RV-6A that used relays in the trim system, and he had a lot of problems with the relays sticking or working intermittently (he did not build the aircraft and couldn't tell me what type of relays were in it). In our avionics labs where I work, we also fight relay problems. So part of my dilemma with the Infinity route is my concern over the reliability and extra failure modes introduced by using relays for elec trim, flaps, landing lights, fuel pump, etc. I had intended to use panel mounted switches for these functions that would be rated to handle the current thus keeping things simpler and theoretically more reliable. But I like the "HOTAS" concept so I'm thinkin' about Infinity....somebody stop me!! --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Harlow" <jharlow(at)onearrow.net>
Subject: Re: Relays for Infinity Stick
Date: Oct 24, 2001
Mark, I have the Infinity grips installed in my Express and used the relays from Radio Shack as suggested. Love the convenience I set mine up for dual sticks using on/off/mon on toggle and MAC servo. It required two relays both of which were cat no 275-218c and the sockets are 275-220a. As I remember the relay was from a US manufacture and repackaged by TRS. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim & Jeanette Oberst" <joberst(at)hsnp.com>
Subject: Re: Relays for Infinity Stick
Date: Oct 24, 2001
I built up a relay board using Radio Shack relays... both 4PDT and 4PST variety. Not flying yet, though. Jim Oberst ----- Original Message ----- From: <czechsix(at)juno.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Relays for Infinity Stick > > Guys, > > I'm wondering what relays are being used by those of you who have the > Infinity stick grips in your RV's? The Infinity website recommends the > MAC relays for the MAC electric trim system, and references some Radio > Shack P/N's for other relays (for flaps, landing lights, etc.). Van's > also sells some sort of remote flap control mechanism which I assume has > relays in it?? Does anybody have any advice on pros or cons for > different relays that could be used? > > I talked to a guy in Chicago who had an RV-6A that used relays in the > trim system, and he had a lot of problems with the relays sticking or > working intermittently (he did not build the aircraft and couldn't tell > me what type of relays were in it). In our avionics labs where I work, > we also fight relay problems. So part of my dilemma with the Infinity > route is my concern over the reliability and extra failure modes > introduced by using relays for elec trim, flaps, landing lights, fuel > pump, etc. I had intended to use panel mounted switches for these > functions that would be rated to handle the current thus keeping things > simpler and theoretically more reliable. But I like the "HOTAS" concept > so I'm thinkin' about Infinity....somebody stop me!! > > --Mark Navratil > Cedar Rapids, Iowa > RV-8A fuselage > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
From: Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Relays for Infinity Stick
Did you look at the Matronics Governor? http://www.matronics.com/governor/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <czechsix(at)juno.com> > To: ; > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Relays for Infinity > Stick > > > czechsix(at)juno.com > > > > Guys, > > > > I'm wondering what relays are being used by those > of you who have the > > Infinity stick grips in your RV's? The Infinity > website recommends the > > MAC relays for the MAC electric trim system, and > references some Radio > > Shack P/N's for other relays (for flaps, landing > lights, etc.). Van's > > also sells some sort of remote flap control > mechanism which I assume has > > relays in it?? Does anybody have any advice on > pros or cons for > > different relays that could be used? > > > > I talked to a guy in Chicago who had an RV-6A that > used relays in the > > trim system, and he had a lot of problems with the > relays sticking or > > working intermittently (he did not build the > aircraft and couldn't tell > > me what type of relays were in it). In our > avionics labs where I work, > > we also fight relay problems. So part of my > dilemma with the Infinity > > route is my concern over the reliability and extra > failure modes > > introduced by using relays for elec trim, flaps, > landing lights, fuel > > pump, etc. I had intended to use panel mounted > switches for these > > functions that would be rated to handle the > current thus keeping things > > simpler and theoretically more reliable. But I > like the "HOTAS" concept > > so I'm thinkin' about Infinity....somebody stop > me!! > > > > --Mark Navratil > > Cedar Rapids, Iowa > > RV-8A fuselage ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Edgar Harriman" <edlindee(at)olypen.com>
Subject: Entire System
Date: Oct 24, 2001
I am just now starting the design process for wiring the panel and electrical system for my Mustang II. Real happy to see discussion on Infinity stick grip and Ray Allen (MAC) trim system as I have both. Main problem will be getting the supplies to do the work. Can anyone help me with a few sources of mail order and/or online suppliers of relays, contactors, wires, switches, etc. etc. One stop shopping would be nice but maybe unrealistic. Ed Harriman N**** ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Noise in Audio Circuit
> >Ulrich, > >I had a similar noise problem with my RST audio panel. As a test, try powering >the audio panel from a separate 12 volt battery to see if the noise goes away. >This completely fixed it for me. I then used a 5 amp filter, from an auto >parts store, on the audio panel power line as a final solution. If it turns out that noise is propagating into your audio system via the 14 volt bus feed, take a peek at: http://209.134.106.21/articles/filter/filter.html as a possible solution for an in-line, DC power noise filter. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Wiring
> >Bob and others, > >I am in the process of the FWF wiring and have a question on the alternator >wiring. I have a Nippondenso 40A internally regulated alternator and am >using OV module and OV relay as detailed by Bob. My question lies in which >wire hooks to what. The alternator has two wires coming from it. A green >wire marked "IG" and a yellow wire marked "L". According to Bob's diagram, >one wire goes to ground the other to the batt/alt master switch. Does >anyone know which wire goes where? Only the "IG" wire is used to control the alternator. The "L" wire is for an essentially useless alternator fail light that DOES NOT replace active notification of low bus voltage. I recommend you ignore this feature in your alternator. Bob . . . ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find arguments ) ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does not ) ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like a ) ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? " ) ( - Epictetus ) http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Entire System
> >I am just now starting the design process for wiring the panel and >electrical system for my Mustang II. Real happy to see discussion on >Infinity stick grip and Ray Allen (MAC) trim system as I have both. Main >problem will be getting the supplies to do the work. Can anyone help me >with a few sources of mail order and/or online suppliers of relays, >contactors, wires, switches, etc. etc. One stop shopping would be nice >but maybe unrealistic. Nope, everything you need can be found at either Radio Shack or http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pulse-Width-Modulated Dimmers
> >Can someone recommend a source for a Pulse-Width-Modulated dimmer to use >for my cockpit lighting? I'm interested in it to dim stuff like LED's >and possibly experiment with electroluminescent too. Van's lamp dimmer >is just a variable voltage system, which works fine for incandenscent >lights but not so well for everything else. Theoretically I should be >able to dim both LED's and incandescent lights on the same circuit using >PWM. Kitplanes had a series a while back on how to 'roll your own' PWM >dimmer, but I'm just wondering if there's something already made that I >can purchase? PWM dimmers and analog dimmers are indistinguishable from each other in how the various lamps respond to them. PWM dimmers can be more compact and more energy efficient but they are a potential source of noise. I have looked at several alternatives to the analog dimmers we sell . . . and may eventually get around to "upgrading" the technology. Problem is value returned on investment. From an operational perspective, the pilot will see no difference in how they perform. The parts count is higher but for the larger models, the heat sinks go away. LEDs, incandescent, EL backlights, plasma displays, florescent displays, etc. all have different response curves in perceived intensity versus average applied voltage. PWM dimming is not the one-stop-solution for making all these critters track each other. Believe me, I know. I've designed multi-output dimming controllers for large aircraft that featured as many a 5 channels of independently programmable dimming curves so that one knob would produce a uniform dimming appearance over all the lighting technologies on the panel. The last one I did was for Piper and I think we hit them up for about $1200 on that one . . . in 1985 dollars! Bob . . . ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find arguments ) ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does not ) ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like a ) ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? " ) ( - Epictetus ) http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Relays for Infinity Stick
> >Guys, > >I'm wondering what relays are being used by those of you who have the >Infinity stick grips in your RV's? The Infinity website recommends the >MAC relays for the MAC electric trim system, and references some Radio >Shack P/N's for other relays (for flaps, landing lights, etc.). Van's >also sells some sort of remote flap control mechanism which I assume has >relays in it?? Does anybody have any advice on pros or cons for >different relays that could be used? > >I talked to a guy in Chicago who had an RV-6A that used relays in the >trim system, and he had a lot of problems with the relays sticking or >working intermittently (he did not build the aircraft and couldn't tell >me what type of relays were in it). In our avionics labs where I work, >we also fight relay problems. So part of my dilemma with the Infinity >route is my concern over the reliability and extra failure modes >introduced by using relays for elec trim, flaps, landing lights, fuel >pump, etc. I had intended to use panel mounted switches for these >functions that would be rated to handle the current thus keeping things >simpler and theoretically more reliable. But I like the "HOTAS" concept >so I'm thinkin' about Infinity....somebody stop me!! Anyone who has a problem sticking relays on a MAC servo has to be hexed by the evil electrospirits. There's no reason to avoid or be concerned about relay selection in any trim system that draws less than an amp. You can built or buy a solid state "relay" assembly but it's a lot more trouble. There are some relays that are poorly built . . . I worked a problem on one of RAC's bizjets where a mil spec relay in a 3/4 amp trim system sticks . . . but this is a very rare exception. Anything you get from Radio Shack will perform quite well in a MAC servo system. Bob . . . ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find arguments ) ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does not ) ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like a ) ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? " ) ( - Epictetus ) http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: One of my daytime jobs . . .
Two of the products produced at my home base division of Raytheon Aircraft are featured at websites linked below. http://home.navair.navy.mil/pma208/systems.cfm#aqm-37c http://home.navair.navy.mil/pma208/supersonic_target/aqm37c.cfm http://home.navair.navy.mil/pma208/supersonic_target/ssst.cfm Bob . . . ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find arguments ) ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does not ) ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like a ) ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? " ) ( - Epictetus ) http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: One of my daytime jobs . . .
From: "nknobil(at)gwi.net" <nknobil(at)gwi.net>
Date: Oct 24, 2001
Cool! Are they available on your website? Just the thing to impress the guys around the patch... Original Message: ----------------- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:41:12 -0500 Subject: AeroElectric-List: One of my daytime jobs . . . Two of the products produced at my home base division of Raytheon Aircraft are featured at websites linked below. http://home.navair.navy.mil/pma208/systems.cfm#aqm-37c http://home.navair.navy.mil/pma208/supersonic_target/aqm37c.cfm http://home.navair.navy.mil/pma208/supersonic_target/ssst.cfm Bob . . . ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find arguments ) ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does not ) ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like a ) ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? " ) ( - Epictetus ) http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
Subject: Re: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP . . .
At 09:19 PM 10/21/2001Robert L. Nuckolls, III sez: > The folks who make bid decisions as to how our data gets > shuffled around the Internet decided that bytes to and from > our website (and others hosted by Paul Franz) were not > shuffling right . . . Sooooooooo they decided to hammer and > saw on some things which caused Paul a lot of work to reconnect > things. The new connectivity addresses were broadcast some > time ago and the site is back up for MOST folk. I've had > several calls this weekend from people who's domain name > servers haven't updated with the new data . . . but it should > all come together soon. > > Make sure your browser isn't parking on a cached file . . . > hit reload (Netscape) or refresh (I.E.) to make sure your > browser is really LOOKING for the new routing. I personally had a dickens of a time with Netscape. It kept on loading the root server's page instead of the virtual hosted page for aeroelectric.com. It seems to be working for me and I have made spot checks on various machines around the Internet and the site is reachable. Here is the test, from a Unix machine or using a windows utility for nslookup do this: nslookup aeroelectric.com If it returns 209.162.135.33 then your DNS server has been updated. If not, it will show the old address which is 209.162.138.16. That is now the address of the Firewall (interface) ahead of the webserver and is the cause of bringing up the root server's web page. That is the same page you'd get if you used the URL <http://209.162.138.16/> Here are a few checks around the US starting with using my own DNS and testing several other big networks across the country and it appears to me that all have the new IP correctly. [root@Beaker named]# nslookup aeroelectric.com Server: 209-162-135-34.cortland.com Address: 209.162.135.34 Name: aeroelectric.com Address: 209.162.135.33 [root@Beaker named]# nslookup aeroelectric.com ns1.cortland.com Server: ns1.cortland.com Address: 207.229.64.3 Name: aeroelectric.com Address: 209.162.135.33 [root@Beaker named]# nslookup aeroelectric.com ns1.nwlink.com Server: ns1.nwlink.com Address: 209.20.130.34 Non-authoritative answer: Name: aeroelectric.com Address: 209.162.135.33 [root@Beaker named]# nslookup aeroelectric.com NIC.RRNET.COM Server: rrnet.com Address: 206.11.160.5 Name: aeroelectric.com Address: 209.162.135.33 [root@Beaker named]# nslookup aeroelectric.com DNS1.RR.COM Server: dns1.rr.com Address: 24.30.200.3 Name: aeroelectric.com Address: 209.162.135.33 [root@Beaker named]# nslookup aeroelectric.com DNS2.RR.COM Server: dns2.rr.com Address: 24.30.201.3 Name: aeroelectric.com Address: 209.162.135.33 ** L I N U X ** .~. Paul A. Franz, P.E. Engineering Software The Choice /V\ Blackdog Software Network Consulting and Sales of the GNU /( )\ <http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/> Custom Web Services Generation - (425) 641-8202, (425) 641-1773 FAX Internet FAX ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2001
From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
Subject: Re: RE: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP .
. . At 06:39 AM 10/24/2001pat_hatch sez: > >Sorry, Bob, that's not working for me. When I click on the AeroElectric >Connection link it just brings me back to the Apache page. It is kind of >surprising that this is taking so long. Let me know in an e-mail if you are having trouble. I am surprised at the number of folks this has been troublesome for. I did my best to make the transition seamless and invisible. I now believe that part of the problem is with the caching of the web page. When a request is made for the aeroelectric.com web page a code is sent that tells when the page was last updated. If your browser has a newer copy in the cache then it may refuse to update. That's what happened for me. I could not make Netscape reload the new site address even though it would come up in IE that had just been started. I closed all sessions of Netscape and restarted it and voila! The Aeroelectric site comes up. So, if you do reload and shift reload in Netscape and it still gives you the wrong page, close Netscape and reload it. ** L I N U X ** .~. Paul A. Franz, P.E. Engineering Software The Choice /V\ Blackdog Software Network Consulting and Sales of the GNU /( )\ <http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/> Custom Web Services Generation - (425) 641-8202, (425) 641-1773 FAX Internet FAX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nick Nafsinger" <rvator(at)nafsinger.com>
Subject: RE: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP . . .
Date: Oct 25, 2001
For those stubborn pages in Internet Explorer try this: Hold "CTRL" while you refresh the page. It will force IE to do a 'real' refresh, not just pull from the cache. Nick N. RV-7 Emp. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul A. Franz, P.E. Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: OUR WEBSITE WAS GETTING A TUNE UP . . . At 06:39 AM 10/24/2001pat_hatch sez: > >Sorry, Bob, that's not working for me. When I click on the AeroElectric >Connection link it just brings me back to the Apache page. It is kind of >surprising that this is taking so long. Let me know in an e-mail if you are having trouble. I am surprised at the number of folks this has been troublesome for. I did my best to make the transition seamless and invisible. I now believe that part of the problem is with the caching of the web page. When a request is made for the aeroelectric.com web page a code is sent that tells when the page was last updated. If your browser has a newer copy in the cache then it may refuse to update. That's what happened for me. I could not make Netscape reload the new site address even though it would come up in IE that had just been started. I closed all sessions of Netscape and restarted it and voila! The Aeroelectric site comes up. So, if you do reload and shift reload in Netscape and it still gives you the wrong page, close Netscape and reload it. ** L I N U X ** .~. Paul A. Franz, P.E. Engineering Software The Choice /V\ Blackdog Software Network Consulting and Sales of the GNU /( )\ <http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/> Custom Web Services Generation - (425) 641-8202, (425) 641-1773 FAX Internet FAX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com>
Subject: Pulse-Width-Modulated Dimmers
Date: Oct 25, 2001
A simple PWM dimmer can be made from Radio Shack parts for under $20.00. The noise issues Bob refers to are real, but can be overcome with output filtering and active rise/fall time suppression (& increased power loss - i.e. more heat in the heatsink). I'm currently running a home brew design in my RV that, on the bench, has demonstrated 15 Amp capacity. Running at a low frequency of under 200Hz does result in the back lighting of my KY-97A radio to "flicker" (due to the beat frequency between the radio's back light electro-luminescent chopper and the dimmer circuit chopper frequencies). I'll try and get a copy of this circuit scanned to distribute. It's really nothing more than a NE555 timer switching a MOSFET....BUT, the MOSFET gate has a filter to control the switching times of the device. Fred Stucklen N925RV (1753 hrs8 Yrs) E. Windsor, CT 06088 WK Email: stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com Hm/Travel Email: wstucklen1(at)juno.com ____ From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pulse-Width-Modulated Dimmers > >Can someone recommend a source for a Pulse-Width-Modulated dimmer to use >for my cockpit lighting? I'm interested in it to dim stuff like LED's >and possibly experiment with electroluminescent too. Van's lamp dimmer >is just a variable voltage system, which works fine for incandenscent >lights but not so well for everything else. Theoretically I should be >able to dim both LED's and incandescent lights on the same circuit using >PWM. Kitplanes had a series a while back on how to 'roll your own' PWM >dimmer, but I'm just wondering if there's something already made that I >can purchase? PWM dimmers and analog dimmers are indistinguishable from each other in how the various lamps respond to them. PWM dimmers can be more compact and more energy efficient but they are a potential source of noise. I have looked at several alternatives to the analog dimmers we sell . . . and may eventually get around to "upgrading" the technology. Problem is value returned on investment. From an operational perspective, the pilot will see no difference in how they perform. The parts count is higher but for the larger models, the heat sinks go away. LEDs, incandescent, EL backlights, plasma displays, florescent displays, etc. all have different response curves in perceived intensity versus average applied voltage. PWM dimming is not the one-stop-solution for making all these critters track each other. Believe me, I know. I've designed multi-output dimming controllers for large aircraft that featured as many a 5 channels of independently programmable dimming curves so that one knob would produce a uniform dimming appearance over all the lighting technologies on the panel. The last one I did was for Piper and I think we hit them up for about $1200 on that one . . . in 1985 dollars! Bob . . . ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find arguments ) ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does not ) ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like a ) ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? " ) ( - Epictetus ) http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2001
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: NEW Matronics Email List Feature! Browse Current List
Messages! Dear Listers, I have just finished building an all new Email List Web Browsing feature for the Matronics Email Lists. The new system allows you to use your web browser to view all of the current Email List messages. The system's indexes display all of the current List messages sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Thread. Clicking on the URL links on these index pages will open another "Viewing Window" where the messages will be displayed. The format of the index pages and message viewing window are consistent with the existing Matronics Archive Search Engine and should be familiar to everyone. The messages available on this new List Browsing Feature span the previous 7 days of email for the given List. Each day the oldest day's messages are replaced with the current day's messages. The web pages are updated every 30 minutes with any new messages that are posted to the List during that time frame. Please have a look at the new Utility and let me know what you think! For ease of use, I've added a link to the new system on each of the List trailers that are appended to each List email message. I hope you will find the new system useful and also find it to be a handy companion to the Archive Search Engine. The new Email Browsing Utility can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse From here, you can select any of the available Email Lists. Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2001
From: "Mark C. Milgrom" <milgrom(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: NEW Matronics Email List Feature! Browse Current
ListMessages! Does this mean we will no longer receive the individual e-mail messages? Matt Dralle wrote: > > > Dear Listers, > > I have just finished building an all new Email List Web Browsing feature > for the Matronics Email Lists. The new system allows you to use your web > browser to view all of the current Email List messages. The system's > indexes display all of the current List messages sorted by Subject, Author, > Date, or Thread. Clicking on the URL links on these index pages will open > another "Viewing Window" where the messages will be displayed. > > The format of the index pages and message viewing window are consistent > with the existing Matronics Archive Search Engine and should be familiar to > everyone. The messages available on this new List Browsing Feature span > the previous 7 days of email for the given List. Each day the oldest day's > messages are replaced with the current day's messages. The web pages are > updated every 30 minutes with any new messages that are posted to the List > during that time frame. > > Please have a look at the new Utility and let me know what you think! For > ease of use, I've added a link to the new system on each of the List > trailers that are appended to each List email message. > > I hope you will find the new system useful and also find it to be a handy > companion to the Archive Search Engine. > > The new Email Browsing Utility can be found at the following URL: > > http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse > > From here, you can select any of the available Email Lists. > > Best regards, > > Matt Dralle > Matronics Email List Admin. > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 > 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email > http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little > temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. > > Benjamin Franklin > Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2001
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: NEW Matronics Email List Feature!
Browse Current List Messages! No, not at all! This is just an additional way to view the List messages. The email system of posting and receiving messages works exactly as before. Matt At Thursday 10:58 AM10/25/2001, you wrote: > > >Does this mean we will no longer receive the individual e-mail messages? > >Matt Dralle wrote: > > > > > > Dear Listers, > > > > I have just finished building an all new Email List Web Browsing feature > > for the Matronics Email Lists. The new system allows you to use your web > > browser to view all of the current Email List messages. The system's > > indexes display all of the current List messages sorted by Subject, Author, > > Date, or Thread. Clicking on the URL links on these index pages will open > > another "Viewing Window" where the messages will be displayed. > > > > The format of the index pages and message viewing window are consistent > > with the existing Matronics Archive Search Engine and should be familiar to > > everyone. The messages available on this new List Browsing Feature span > > the previous 7 days of email for the given List. Each day the oldest day's > > messages are replaced with the current day's messages. The web pages are > > updated every 30 minutes with any new messages that are posted to the List > > during that time frame. > > > > Please have a look at the new Utility and let me know what you think! For > > ease of use, I've added a link to the new system on each of the List > > trailers that are appended to each List email message. > > > > I hope you will find the new system useful and also find it to be a handy > > companion to the Archive Search Engine. > > > > The new Email Browsing Utility can be found at the following URL: > > > > http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse > > > > From here, you can select any of the available Email Lists. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Matt Dralle > > Matronics Email List Admin. > > > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 > > 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email > > http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > > > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little > > temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. > > > > Benjamin Franklin > > Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 > > > > > > > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2001
Subject: A couple more Infinity questions....
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
1) If I use one of the ON-OFF pushbuttons on the Infinity grip for my fuel pump, is it easy to tell by feel or by looking at the button position whether it's ON or OFF? If not, it seems that I would have to add further complexity by putting an LED or some sort of fuel pump status indicator on the panel... 2) For future growth, I may add a Navaid or S-Tec autopilot to my RV. What kind of switch would I want on the grip for the "autopilot disconnect" function? ON-OFF? Momentary N.C. or N.O.? Thanks to everyone for the helpful input. --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A fuselage... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2001
Subject: Re: Pulse-Width-Modulated Dimmers
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Bob, thanks for your input on PWM dimmers. I'm wondering though if your statements about about PWM and analog dimmers being indistinguishable in how various lamps respond to them are absolutely correct under all conditions? I was under the impression that when using an analog dimmer, when the voltage drops to a certain point an LED will basically shut off completely rather than getting progressively dimmer. Whereas you can dim an LED to a lower level with PWM (of course it's really an eye trick where the LED is turned full ON and full OFF....and the ON duty cycle is reduced lower and lower as the dimmer is turned down, etc, appearing to the eye to be getting dimmer). Just wondered if I'm misunderstanding something about how LED's dim with varied voltage input? --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A fuselage.... PWM dimmers and analog dimmers are indistinguishable from each other in how the various lamps respond to them. From an operational perspective, the pilot will see no difference in how they perform. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2001
Subject: It was not a dark and stormy night....
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Bob, I have an experience to relate and questions about the possible implications. I like a lot of things about your recommended fuseblocks for circuit protection, with the Essential bus included. But...... It was not a dark and stormy night, it was a bright, sunshiny day in E. Texas. I was flying with a friend in a C172 to Shreveport, LA to have some avionics work done (ironically, as it would turn out). We were flying along about 2000' agl enjoying ourselves when acrid smoke began pouring out of the radio stack. It looked like the transponder so my friend (who was PIC) turned it OFF....no immediate improvement so he flipped off the Master switch. We also popped the windows open to gasp for a breath since it had become almost impossible to breathe within seconds (which is a scary feeling, I might add, even on a CAVU day with the ground only 2000' below...). Whatever was smoking stopped smoking when the Master was turned off, as expected. After the air cleared a bit we turned all the radios OFF, and then turned the Master back on. My friend turned the NavComm back on but before he could get to the Transponder to turn it back on, it was smoking again even though it was OFF. Master switch back OFF again. Let the air clear again. Now we're really baffled and a bit worried how a radio can be burning like that with the mechanical switch in the OFF position. Just to make sure we weren't seeing things wrong, we turned the NavComm back OFF so everything was OFF again....and then to satisfy our curiosity flipped the Master back on one more time. Sure enough, smoke pouring out of it again. Master back OFF and this time we pulled the breaker for the Transponder. If I recall correctly this killed a few other things that were grouped on the same breaker, but the point is it solved our problem in that we could turn the Master back on with no more smoke, power up the Comm radio, and landed uneventfully. We asked the avionics shop to fix the transponder along with the other unrelated squawks and left. My friend said later that the avionics shop reported that most of the transponder's internals were toast....don't know if they figured out why, but it was NOT the aircraft wiring, it was the transponder itself. I believe it was a King model. So....I know that avionics are not *supposed* to do this, especially if they meet DO-160 et al. And I know that we shouldn't have tried to "troubleshoot" it in the air. But my concern is, IF such a thing should ever happen in my homebuilt where fuses are inaccessible, the only fix I would have would be to turn OFF--and leave OFF--the Master switch (and in the case of something on the Essential bus, the Ess. switch would also have to be OFF). On a nice CAVU day this would be mostly an annoying inconvenience....but on an IFR night this would probably be fatal (especially without vacuum gyros). Having had this experience I am reluctant to go with inaccessible fuses. I have considered using fuseblocks plus toggle switches but this adds complexity, cost, time, money, failure points, etc that mostly negate the intent of the fuseblock route. Just wondering if you have ever heard of such a thing or considered the options available to a pilot under such circumstances? I'm trying to talk myself into going the fuseblock route so any help you can give me in getting over this hurdle would be greatly appreciated : ) Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A fuselage... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net>
Subject: Re: It was not a dark and stormy night....
Date: Oct 25, 2001
For what it's worth Mark, nearly all airliners have procedures that, while more complex, basically do what you did. Depower busses and wait. Repower items slowly, waiting after each one, to isolate what is causing the electrical smoke. Guess what we use to do that? Switches and breakers. If those weren't accessable, we'd be unable to troubleshoot much at all. Another common way to fix an electrical device is to depower it, wait a few minutes and repower it. Breakers make that easy. Most items on an airline jet don't have on-off switches so that is the only way to do it however. Even if you had fuses that were accessable in your situation, you might not have had the time/vision to get the proper one pulled unless the fuse block was VERY accessible. Breaker switches that are well marked are very useful, though extremely expensive ($20 a pop). Russ HRII Maui ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Desktop Publishing Woes . . .
I began assembling text and figures for Revision 10 about a week ago with the goal of getting the next edition of the 'Connection to the printers this week. My intention is to get the 'Connection into a common word processor (some of the old original chapters are still in Wordstar . . ) and convert all of the images from pasted up paper to embedded drawings from AutoCAD. I've been using AutoCAD with both Word and Wordperfect for several years and felt that I was on solid ground. Problem was that as the size of the document grew, the Word Perfect/ Win 98 combination became increasingly unstable. After blowing away a couple of days restarting my computer, I tried the task on Dee's computer (faster and has WinME on it) and it seemed to be more stable. Moved ops to my laptop with ME on it and while the combination of software and task was more stable, the little laptop's internal hardware just wasn't up to the task of massaging 6 megabyte documents. Cut/paste and page moves were agonizingly slow. Finally gave up and went down to Best Buy to pick up a newer computer. Came home with a 1,000 MHz machine with WinXP on it. NOW . . . maybe we can get on with it! Almost, WinXP was more crashproof in that hiccups in the software didn't lock up the computer or force a reboot . . . Windows politely apologize for the fact that "your application is going to shut down . . . sorry 'bout that. Can we tell Microsoft about it?" AAAARrrrrggghhhhh! Poked around on Corel's website and found that while Word Perfect ver 9 was current model, there WERE some upgrades in the form of 3 "service packs" that could be downloaded and installed. Okay, 78 Megabytes of download and an hour of fussing later, I opened the text again and began to paste figures into it from AutoCAD . . . after 8 days and $700 we finally have some success! Got chapter 1 stuck together a few minutes ago without a single hiccup. I've decided to enlist AeroElectric List members help in proofing the work. I've uploaded the meat for the Rev10 Chapter 1 to: http://209.134.106.21/rev10/CH1_DRFT1.pdf Anyone who would like to get an advance peek is free to download and print it. It's a big file, about 1.5 megabytes, so unless you have a fast Internet connection, I wouldn't recommend you download unless you want to let it thrash while you go to bed! I need to number the figures, tie the text to the figures and sort out places where my tongue got tangled around my eyeteeth and couldn't see what I was typing. Feedback from Listers on errors and suggestions for adding things you think would be useful are actively solicited. I've always maintained that this was YOUR book, now's your chance to participate in it's formulation. With the advent of Revision 10, we're going to publish the update pages on our website. Folks with R9 books can upgrade their books for the time and effort to download and print. We'll continue to offer paper upgrades by mail but I'd rather be working on the NEXT upgrade than spending any time stuffing envelopes; we'll encourage folks to upgrade from the website if they have the capability. It's only 12:30 a.m. and I'm so pleased this is finally working that I think I'm going to work awhile on the new Appendix Z. I'll post it also as soon as the meat of the task is done. If my tasks for RAC this weekend don't get out of hand, I think I can finally see a trip to the print shop in my immediate future. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2001
From: Mike Thompson <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A couple more Infinity questions....
--- czechsix(at)juno.com wrote: > > 1) If I use one of the ON-OFF pushbuttons on the Infinity grip for > my > fuel pump, is it easy to tell by feel or by looking at the button > position whether it's ON or OFF? If not, it seems that I would have > to > add further complexity by putting an LED or some sort of fuel pump > status > indicator on the panel... I had the Infinity folks put a toggle switch on the upper right switch location for my fuel pump. Up is on, down is off. The switch on the panel is three position, off, remote and on. Remote lets the stick have control of the pump, but I also have that (on) position in case something craps out in the stick wiring. Both panel and stick switches activate a DP relay which turns on the pump and at the same time turns on an green LED on the panel over the switch. The LED tells me for sure that the pump is getting power. I didn't see the LED as complexity, rather visual backup. You could just use the toggle switch on the stick without it. The switch stem is not all that big if you're worried about size... Mike Thompson Austin, TX -6 N140RV (Reserved) Firewall Forward ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2001
From: Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Desktop Publishing Woes . . .
> > Problem was that as the size of the document grew, the Word Perfect/ > ... > Dee's computer (faster and has WinME on it) and it seemed to be > more stable. > > Moved ops to my laptop with ME on it and while the combination > ... > Finally gave up and went down to Best Buy to pick up a newer > computer. Came home with a 1,000 MHz machine with WinXP on > it. NOW . . . maybe we can get on with it! > > Almost, WinXP was more crashproof in that hiccups in the software > didn't lock up the computer or force a reboot Common theme, Microsoft software is getting better, almost as good as other software, and maybe someday they will finally get there. I have pretty much given up on all microsoft software, and am glad to hear you aren't using Word. I have to recommend Linux. Many windows programs will continue to work on Linux using Wine (http://www.wine.org), as well as all the linux native software available (wordperfect office: http://www3.corel.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=Corel/Product/Details&id=CC1868B84AC). Some are not so obvious, autocad files can be read and written using Dia (www.gnome.org), and other programs (http://www.varicad.com, etc). The opendwg group lists many other vendors (http://www.opendwg.org/). As far as distributions of the OS go, I recomend mandrake ( http://www.mandrakesoft.com). It is the easiest and most windows like I have seen. The free software philosophy (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) seem like something you'd embrace. The opportunity to share, and improve the world with minimal controls (controls to perpetuate things). You may ignore all of this, I certainly don't want to start a war of any sort. Your choices are yours, I cannot change them. Thanks Good luck. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2001
From: Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Desktop Publishing Woes . . .
Bob, FYI: Downloaded and printed your Rev 10, Ch 1 (Draft) with no problems. I have a cable modem and a Mac computer. Download took about two minutes, printing took another ten. Will read and critique as requested. With just a quick look through, it appears to be a fine and very understandable piece of work. Your efforts are certainly appreciated. Charlie Brame RV-6AQB N11CB (Res.) San Antonio ---------------------------- > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Desktop Publishing Woes . . . > > ----------------snip----------------- > > I've decided to enlist AeroElectric List members help > in proofing the work. I've uploaded the meat for the Rev10 > Chapter 1 to: > > http://209.134.106.21/rev10/CH1_DRFT1.pdf > > Anyone who would like to get an advance peek is free to > download and print it. It's a big file, about 1.5 megabytes, > so unless you have a fast Internet connection, I wouldn't > recommend you download unless you want to let it thrash > while you go to bed! > > I need to number the figures, tie the text to the figures > and sort out places where my tongue got tangled around > my eyeteeth and couldn't see what I was typing. > > Feedback from Listers on errors and suggestions for adding > things you think would be useful are actively solicited. I've > always maintained that this was YOUR book, now's your chance > to participate in it's formulation. > > --------------------snip------------------------ > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: It was not a dark and stormy night....
> >Bob, > >I have an experience to relate and questions about the possible >implications. I like a lot of things about your recommended fuseblocks >for circuit protection, with the Essential bus included. But...... > >It was not a dark and stormy night, it was a bright, sunshiny day in E. >Texas. I was flying with a friend in a C172 to Shreveport, LA to have >some avionics work done (ironically, as it would turn out). We were >flying along about 2000' agl enjoying ourselves when acrid smoke began >pouring out of the radio stack. It looked like the transponder so my >friend (who was PIC) turned it OFF....no immediate improvement so he >flipped off the Master switch. We also popped the windows open to gasp >for a breath since it had become almost impossible to breathe within >seconds (which is a scary feeling, I might add, even on a CAVU day with >the ground only 2000' below...). Whatever was smoking stopped smoking >when the Master was turned off, as expected. After the air cleared a bit >we turned all the radios OFF, and then turned the Master back on. My >friend turned the NavComm back on but before he could get to the >Transponder to turn it back on, it was smoking again even though it was >OFF. Master switch back OFF again. Let the air clear again. Now we're >really baffled and a bit worried how a radio can be burning like that >with the mechanical switch in the OFF position. Just to make sure we >weren't seeing things wrong, we turned the NavComm back OFF so everything >was OFF again....and then to satisfy our curiosity flipped the Master >back on one more time. Sure enough, smoke pouring out of it again. >Master back OFF and this time we pulled the breaker for the Transponder. The transponder obviously had some components upstream of the front panel ON/OFF switch . . . not a good design. > >If I recall correctly this killed a few other things that were grouped on >the same breaker, but the point is it solved our problem in that we could >turn the Master back on with no more smoke, power up the Comm radio, and >landed uneventfully. We asked the avionics shop to fix the transponder >along with the other unrelated squawks and left. My friend said later >that the avionics shop reported that most of the transponder's internals >were toast....don't know if they figured out why, but it was NOT the >aircraft wiring, it was the transponder itself. I believe it was a King >model. I'll go peek at the power input and control schematics of the low-end King Radio models and see what's upstream of the switch . . . some sort of input filtering I suspect. >So....I know that avionics are not *supposed* to do this, especially if >they meet DO-160 et al. And I know that we shouldn't have tried to >"troubleshoot" it in the air. But my concern is, IF such a thing should >ever happen in my homebuilt where fuses are inaccessible, the only fix I >would have would be to turn OFF--and leave OFF--the Master switch (and in >the case of something on the Essential bus, the Ess. switch would also >have to be OFF). On a nice CAVU day this would be mostly an annoying >inconvenience....but on an IFR night this would probably be fatal >(especially without vacuum gyros). Understand. I'm surprise that you had a pullable breaker in the 172 . . . every one that I have access to are push-to-reset only. I carry a small screwdriver and a couple of sizes of allen wrenches in my flight bag - I've "fixed" a couple of cranky radios by loosening the radio's attachment to the tray and reseating the connectors a couple of times. I rent airplanes and routinely navigate using dual hand held GPS receivers. Combined with the hand-held COM/VOR in the flight - I plan to get to intended destination irrespective of what is or is not working on the panel, including shutting the whole electrical system down. The event you described is certainly not one that would be easy to deal with in MOST airplanes, including those cockpit and light piloting duties, it made sense to exercise the options you did . . . So how do we balance of rare events with time, dollars and hardware designed to help us deal with it in flight? If you'd ever had a fuel line break would you be considering addition of a fire extinguisher? If one ever has an engine or flight control failure, I suppose a ballistic chute might begin to look attractive. >Having had this experience I am reluctant to go with inaccessible fuses. >I have considered using fuseblocks plus toggle switches but this adds >complexity, cost, time, money, failure points, etc that mostly negate the >intent of the fuseblock route. > >Just wondering if you have ever heard of such a thing or considered the >options available to a pilot under such circumstances? I'm trying to >talk myself into going the fuseblock route so any help you can give me in >getting over this hurdle would be greatly appreciated : ) It's a tough one . . . the experience you described has to be rare . . . and equally unforeseeable. With the equipment I routinely carry with me in the cockpit, I'd just shut the whole system down and switch modes of operation for getting on the ground. to fly with NOTHING functioning than to spend much time worrying about what might not work and then allowing myself to become an airborne mechanic instead of a pilot. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Desktop Publishing Woes . . .
>> Almost, WinXP was more crashproof in that hiccups in the software >> didn't lock up the computer or force a reboot > >Common theme, Microsoft software is getting better, almost as good >as other software, and maybe someday they will finally get there. > >I have pretty much given up on all microsoft software, and am glad >to hear you aren't using Word. I have to use Word in some environments . . and it's okay as long as you don't have to do anything really special. My biggest problem with Word is when you have a formatting problem, you can't go in and delete the offending codes. WordPerfect gives on absolute control which is really needed when porting documents from one processor environment to another. >I have to recommend Linux. Many windows programs will continue to >work on Linux using Wine (http://www.wine.org), as well as all the >linux native software available (wordperfect office: >http://www3.corel.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=Corel/Product/Details&id=CC1868B84AC). I've got an experimental Linux machine and no time to really play with it. Right now it's an experimental server that hosts my website articles files. >You may ignore all of this, I certainly don't want to start >a war of any sort. Your choices are yours, I cannot change them. > >Thanks Good luck. Thank you! I've been aware of most of what you suggest. It might make sense for me to set up a machine for nothing but the desktop publishing tasks. I don't know that this new byte-thrasher won't become ustable again if I loaded all the usual boot-time housekeeping plus terminate and stay resident programs that inhabit my office machine. This thing takes about 90 seconds to boot! I may just move all my publishing tasks to the new machine and reserve it for the applications that shouldn't be interrupted with trivial or no-value-added activities. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: It was not a dark and stormy night....
Date: Oct 26, 201
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > >Master back OFF and this time we pulled the breaker for the Transponder. > > The transponder obviously had some components upstream of > the front panel ON/OFF switch . . . not a good design. > > > >that the avionics shop reported that most of the transponder's internals > >were toast....don't know if they figured out why, but it was NOT the *** If it was something forward of the switch, I don't understand why the "most of the internals" were fried. I would expect the filter that fried to be toast ( acrid smoke: electrolytic cap? ) and the innards to be OK. I suspect that something inside shorted out, and either the current surge welded the contacts of the on/off switch shut, OR the on/off switch had been inop all along. It's a fact that no matter how many approvals and certificates a piece of equipment has, it can fail catastrophically. All else being equal, the more parts there are, the more possibility of failure there is. And modern avionics have a LOT of parts. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2001
From: Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Desktop Publishing Woes . . .
> >I have to recommend Linux. Many windows programs will continue to > >work on Linux using Wine (http://www.wine.org), as well as all the > >linux native software available (wordperfect office: I screwed this up in 2 different ways, I was meaning only to respond to Bob, not the whole list. Then I get the Wine URL wrong. I meant http://www.winehq.com/ Windows compatibility layer. Linux might go well with the other wine, I know windows will seem more fun using that kind of wine :-o. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2001
Subject: Re: It was not a dark and stormy night...
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Guys, Thanks for the comments, input and feedback on my story. A couple things need to be clarified though. I got a lot of comments, many off-list, where people misunderstood my statement to the effect that if you had to turn your master switch off while flying night IFR, it would probly be fatal without vacuum gyros......I got quite a few replies admonishing me to never fly at night OR in IFR without attitude instruments. My point was not to imply that I plan to fly IFR without attitude instruments, but specifically without VACUUM instruments. My panel will have elec turn coordinator and EFIS for attitude and DG (probly Dynon). No vacuum system in my plane. For an all electric panel with inaccessible fuseblocks (per 'Lectric Bob design), IF you were ever faced with a scenario like the one I described where you could not isolate the fault by turning off the unit, and the fuse did not blow, your only option would be to turn all power off, resulting in complete loss of instrumentation. Having the Essential bus backup does you no good if whatever is on fire is also on the Essential bus. You'd have to leave it off too. Several people suggested that perhaps the mechanical breaker in the 172 was faulty, whereas a fuse would be more reliable in breaking the circuit when an overload occurs. Hopefully this is true. What I'm wondering, though, is if there could have been a failure mode where something started to smolder (say a circuit board with fine traces), yet still not draw enough current to blow the breaker or fuse? Right now I'm watching Dynon keenly, because they are talking about having a built-in battery backup. Although this adds complexity, it would make me feel more comfortable going all-electric with fuseblocks, because in the worst-case scenario if you had to power off both Master and Essential buses, the Dynon would get you down on it's internal battery. You wouldn't even have to break a sweat since it has more than you need to safely control the aircraft. I have an ICOM for backup communications. Thanks for all the comments and feedback. I'll make up my mind eventually, probly after my airplane is finished : ) --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A fuselage... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pulse-Width-Modulated Dimmers
> >Bob, thanks for your input on PWM dimmers. I'm wondering though if your >statements about about PWM and analog dimmers being indistinguishable in >how various lamps respond to them are absolutely correct under all >conditions? I was under the impression that when using an analog dimmer, >when the voltage drops to a certain point an LED will basically shut off >completely rather than getting progressively dimmer. Whereas you can dim >an LED to a lower level with PWM (of course it's really an eye trick >where the LED is turned full ON and full OFF....and the ON duty cycle is >reduced lower and lower as the dimmer is turned down, etc, appearing to >the eye to be getting dimmer). There are a number of factors. First consider that an LED is basically a current driven device. I went to the workbench and conducted the following experiment: I picked a high intensity LED rated at 30 mA and drove it with a constant current power supply. I got visible light at 1 mA and about 1.7 volts across the device. Raising the current to 30 mA produced a voltage across the device of 2.0 volts and a very bright output. I wired a 330 ohm resistor in series with the LED and then hooked this combination in parallel with a 14V, 200 mA incandescent lamp. F lightmeter to center the needle with 14v applied to the incandescent lamp. Running the voltage downward we get the following data: Full light output: 14.0v 1/2 light output: 11.0v 1/4 light output: 9.0v 1/8 light output: 7.5v Doing the same thing with the LED we get: Full light output 14.0v 1/2 light output 8.0v 1/4 light output 5.0v 1/8 light output 4.0v As you can see, the GROSS LIGHT OUTPUT VARIATION curve for these two devices is markedly different. The incandescent lamp falls off much more rapidly than the LED. Now, if you drive these two lamps from the same PWM power supply, the situation will get even worse with respect to perceived intensity. This is because the eye is fast attack, slow decay in response . . . it tends to capture peak intensity. In a pure PWM control situation, the LED produces peak output with every pulse . . . dropping the duty cycle reduces total energy to the lamp by the duty factor but peak output is constant . . . the incandescent lamp fed with 14.0v at .53 duty cycle (7.5v average) will still give us about 1/8th light output. The LED's average applied power will be in the range 45% but will appear brighter still because of how the eye perceives it. The above does not take into account different perceptions with respect to color . . . When I worked the GP-180 program, we had a devil of a time producing what appeared to a uniform dimming response to a single knob from 3-4 lighting technologies and 6-8 colors. It can be done but you don't want to spend the time and dollars we did on getting your homebuilt visually synchronized for dimming response! There are other PWM techniques that duty cycle only within the control loop of the power supply and still drives output filters that smooth the ripple to within a few millivolts peak-to- peak of pure DC . . . these are the kind of power supplies used in your computer, TV, etc. Eventually, I will replace all the analog DIM series dimmers with perhaps two devices that will work equally well in 14 or 28 volt airplanes, are smaller and don't generated much heat. There's no slick, low cost way I've found to mix incandescent, EL and LED technologies on a single dimming bus with apparently uniform dimming response to a single knob. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "H. Mead" <rv(at)uknz.worldonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Problems with LED substituted for filament lamp
on LR3B-14 Voltage Regulator
Date: Oct 27, 2001
Many thanks for all your suggestions over the last few days. > having a normal load of at least 80 milliampers and > to have no visible light at 5 ma. The 5 ma "leakage" > comes from a collector-base resistor on the lamp driver > that will cause the bulb to illuminate in case the LR-3 > looses all connections to the bus (of course the lamp > needs to enjoy its own connection to +14 . . . don't > share a supply with either of the LR-3 power input leads). > > To run an LED, you need to parallel the led with a 180 ohm > resistor. This will raise the threshold of illumination for > the lamp to something on the order of 8 milliamperes. Then > select a series resistor that will produce 50-30 ma at > 11.5 volts drop (220 to 390 ohms) when the lamp is > lit. > This combination of resistors should take care of normal > ops. . In the end I used the resistor biasing method with a 1/4W 620 ohm resistor in series and a 560 ohm resistor in parallel with the LED. The designed current rating or the LED's I'm using is 16mA - I know you say they're tough devices in your LED pdf document Bob, but they're also quite blinding when they're over-driven! (Incidentally the biasing network I used produced a peak current of 17mA through the 620 ohm resistor and LED and 0.1mA through the 560 ohm paralleled resistor. This was the scenario as fitted to the aircraft - bench results were likely different due to not replicating a/c conditions accurately.) > you might want to make sure that the lamp comes > on steady when both +14 supplies are removed from the > LR-3. With the biasing network as described above, I saw no light from the LED at all! Wihout the 560 ohm paralleling resistor I only had as much light from the LED as I did when it should have been off, i.e. both VR power supplies connected, 14.2V on the bus - just an annoying glimmer! Any more ideas? Kind regards, Hamish ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ronald A. Cox" <racox(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 10/25/01
Date: Oct 27, 2001
> > > Dear Listers, > > I have just finished building an all new Email List Web Browsing feature > for the Matronics Email Lists. The new system allows you to use your web > browser to view all of the current Email List messages. The system's > indexes display all of the current List messages sorted by Subject, Author, > Date, or Thread. Clicking on the URL links on these index pages will open > another "Viewing Window" where the messages will be displayed. > Very cool, great addition! Thanks, Matt. This feature will only make this list even more useful, and make it easier to find things I've accidentally erased! Thanks, for the list in general, and for upgrades like this! Ron Cox Glasair Super II F/T (Finally under construction again after our move!) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2001
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: List Web Server Upgraded! Blazingly Fast Archive Searches!!
Dear Listers, As of this weekend, the Matronics Email List Web Server is now running on a brand new hardware platform and the latest version of RedHat Linux! The new hardware includes Dual 1.7GHz Xeon Processors, a 400MHz FSB motherboard, 1GB of 800MHz RAM, a Dual-Channel 160 MB/Sec Ultra-160 SCSI Controller, and an Ultra 160 36GB 15,000 RPM Seagate Cheetah hard drive. The performance of the new system is, in a word, breathtaking! In a variety of benchmark tests against the previous server, the new system is at *least* six times faster! This means that your Archive Search Engine queries will now come back in what seems like an instant! Single word searches of the 113MB RV-List Archive now return in 2-3 seconds, and searches of all other List Archives return in 1 second or less!! Performance enhancements in the download and viewing of all other web-based tools should also be noticeably improved as well. Please enjoy the new system performance and don't forget, the Annual Email List Fund Raiser is just around the corner!! :-) Best regards, Matt Dralle Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gretz aero" <warrengretz(at)gretzaero.com>
"Tailwind-List" , "RV-List" , "Rocket-List" , "Lancair-List" , "Glasair-List" , "EZ-List" , "Avionics-List" , "AeroElectric-List"
Subject: Heated Pitot Tube
Date: Oct 28, 2001
Hello to the List, If you are interested in a heated pitot tube and a great looking mounting bracket to put on your aircraft, you may want to look at my website at http://www.gretzaero.com There you will see that I have two different pitot tubes available. I also manufacture a very nice looking mounting bracket kit for the installation of the pitot tube of your choice. The chrome finish of the mounting bracket matches the finish of the pitot tube. Or, you may choose a paintable surface mounting bracket. I am offering a very special deal on the purchase of my PH502-12CR pitot tube which is $130, IF, YOU MENTION AT THE TIME OF THE ORDER, YOU SAW THIS SPECIAL ON THIS E-MAIL LIST. This is a $5 savings on my already low price of $135. My prices always include shipping in the US. I hope to hear from you soon. Warren Gretz Gretz Aero 303-770-3811 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gretz aero" <warrengretz(at)gretzaero.com>
"Tailwind-List" , "RV-List" , "Rocket-List" , "Lancair-List" , "Glasair-List" , "EZ-List" , "Avionics-List" , "AeroElectric-List"
Subject: Electric trim cable kits and servo motor kits
Date: Oct 28, 2001
Hello to the List, I have Electric Elevator Trim Cable Kits and Servo Motor Kits that you may want to consider using during building or up-grading for electric elevator trim. On my website http://www.gretzaero.com you will find my page on Alternative Electric Elevator Trim Kits. There you will see the information you need to consider for the use of this kit on your aircraft. Something that is not yet on the website and is my newest kit, is the Servo Motor Kit. You will need this kit for the installation of my Trim Cable Kit and now you will not have to order it from another source. This Servo Motor Kit consists of the Ray Allen Company T3-12A servo (formally MAC Servo 8A), an LED position indicator, and a rocker switch. This servo kit is $235 including shipping in the US. I also have the Ray Allen Co. Relay Deck which is needed if you want to have more control switches than the supplied rocker switch in line. This Relay Deck is $34.50 if it is ordered at the same time as the Servo Kit. I hope to hear from you soon. Warren Gretz Gretz Aero 303-770-3811 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com>
Subject: Re: Pulse-Width-Modulated Dimmers
Date: Oct 29, 2001
I program microcomputers for a living. I have previously programmed a 4-channel PWM controller using a Microchip PIC processor, and it's not really very hard to do. Such a controller would require a transistor or two per channel to actually switch the power. I looked up the PIC16F872 in the Digikey catalog and in 25's it's $2.92, so it seems plausible that such a device could be built for $10 parts cost. You wouldn't happen to have rights to use any of the dimming curves you may have discovered in previous contracts for various lighting technologies would you? > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com] > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 11:02 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pulse-Width-Modulated Dimmers > > > III" > > > > >Bob, thanks for your input on PWM dimmers. I'm wondering > though if your > >statements about about PWM and analog dimmers being > indistinguishable in > >how various lamps respond to them are absolutely correct under all > >conditions? I was under the impression that when using an > analog dimmer, > >when the voltage drops to a certain point an LED will > basically shut off > >completely rather than getting progressively dimmer. > Whereas you can dim > >an LED to a lower level with PWM (of course it's really an eye trick > >where the LED is turned full ON and full OFF....and the ON > duty cycle is > >reduced lower and lower as the dimmer is turned down, etc, > appearing to > >the eye to be getting dimmer). > > There are a number of factors. First consider that an LED is > basically a current driven device. I went to the workbench and > conducted the following experiment: > > I picked a high intensity LED rated at 30 mA and drove > it with a constant current power supply. I got visible > light at 1 mA and about 1.7 volts across the device. > Raising the current to 30 mA produced a voltage across > the device of 2.0 volts and a very bright output. > I wired a 330 ohm resistor in series with the LED > and then hooked this combination in parallel with > a 14V, 200 mA incandescent lamp. > > F lightmeter to center the needle with > 14v applied to the incandescent lamp. Running > the voltage downward we get the following data: > > Full light output: 14.0v > 1/2 light output: 11.0v > 1/4 light output: 9.0v > 1/8 light output: 7.5v > > Doing the same thing with the LED we get: > > Full light output 14.0v > 1/2 light output 8.0v > 1/4 light output 5.0v > 1/8 light output 4.0v > > As you can see, the GROSS LIGHT OUTPUT > VARIATION curve for these two devices > is markedly different. The incandescent > lamp falls off much more rapidly than the > LED. > > Now, if you drive these two lamps from > the same PWM power supply, the situation > will get even worse with respect to perceived > intensity. This is because the eye is fast > attack, slow decay in response . . . it tends > to capture peak intensity. In a pure PWM > control situation, the LED produces peak > output with every pulse . . . dropping > the duty cycle reduces total energy to > the lamp by the duty factor but peak output > is constant . . . the incandescent lamp > fed with 14.0v at .53 duty cycle (7.5v > average) will still give us about 1/8th > light output. > > The LED's average applied power will be > in the range 45% but will appear brighter > still because of how the eye perceives it. > > The above does not take into account different > perceptions with respect to color . . . When > I worked the GP-180 program, we had a devil > of a time producing what appeared to a uniform > dimming response to a single knob from 3-4 > lighting technologies and 6-8 colors. > > It can be done but you don't want to spend the > time and dollars we did on getting your > homebuilt visually synchronized for dimming > response! > > There are other PWM techniques that duty cycle > only within the control loop of the power supply > and still drives output filters that smooth the > ripple to within a few millivolts peak-to- > peak of pure DC . . . these are the kind > of power supplies used in your computer, TV, > etc. > > Eventually, I will replace all the analog DIM > series dimmers with perhaps two devices > that will work equally well in 14 or 28 volt > airplanes, are smaller and don't generated much > heat. > > There's no slick, low cost way I've found to > mix incandescent, EL and LED technologies on a > single dimming bus with apparently uniform > dimming response to a single knob. > > Bob . . . > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
Date: Oct 29, 2001
Subject: Cool Graph on Archive Search Times...
Hi Listers, Below is a link to an interesting graph of the current Archive Search Engine ( http://www.matronics.com/search ) search times done on the 113Mb RV-List Archive file. The graph shows searches back through about Thursday. Based on the search times (shown in the Y axis), see if you can pick out the point at which the new Web Server hardware was installed... Impressive? :-) http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/RV-ListArchiveSearchTimes.jpg Best regards, Matt Dralle EMail List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer(at)mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Help With Finding Molex Crimp Pin
Date: Oct 29, 2001
Hi, I'm currently wiring my -6. I'm just at the point where I want to wire up my used King KY-97A transciever but I need some new crimp pins for the edge connector at the back of the wiring tray. These are molex numbers 08-03-0303 (18-20 ga) and 08-03-0306 (22-26 ga). I've had no luck locating these in small quantities. Mouser has them but wants $100 minimum order to Canada. Digi-Key doesn't seem to carry them. I have never seen anything about this on the aeroelectric or other lists. Does everyone have new avionics except me? I could solder my wires onto the old terminals, but that isn't good practice IMHO. Does anyone know of a source for these that would sell me 20 or so by mail order? thanks Curt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Norman" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca>
, "AeroElectric List"
Subject: Panel Lighting
Date: Oct 29, 2001
I want to light my panel from the lip of my glairsheild which is five inches from the panel. It is an RV6 glairsheild that is untrimmed. I bough a few strip lights from JC Whitney http://www.jcwhitney.com/ bendable strip lights in white 20BB0457Y. $12 USD for 5'. When I tested them out in my darkened shop they weren't bright enough but I liked the format. I also didn't like the quality of wire that they are put together with. So I desoldered them and painstakingly soldered the bulbs onto some of my wire and made the bulbs as close together as I could. I shoved them back in the nifty white plastic strip and tested them out. They appear great, I'm almost positive they will do the job. They claim 40,000 hour bulb life. Recently I've been turned onto LED's from Ledtronics http://www.ledtronics.com/ . They make a strip light with low profile bulbs that are 1/2 inch apart PLT-210-OCW but the price is a whopping $96 a foot. I need around four feet so they're out. So now I notice that JC Whitney has Wolo LED light bars for dressing up a vehicle's exterior. $15 USD for 14 inches with 50 LEDs part number 15BB7505U. I wonder what color the bulbs are as the catalog only indicates the color of the lens in the casing. These might work well when stripped apart if the bulbs are white. Anyone care to try some thing new? Regards, Norman Hunger RV6A Delta BC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2001
Subject: Dimmer questions
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
A few dimmer questions from a dimmer dimwit... 1) Is there any difference in operation, reliability or performance between 'Lectric Bob's dimmers and the ones Vans sells? 2) How close together can the dimmers be mounted (Bob's or Vans)? In other words if I want to have two or three dimmers in a row on my panel, what approx. spacing do I need between the knobs? 3) It is my understanding that these dimmers can be used to dim the backlighting on units such as the Microair comm and transponder, the Grand Rapids EIS, etc. Is the backlighting on these units the same EL stuff that is commercially available and powered by an inverter? I discussed the EL lighting concept on the List a few weeks ago, regarding the use of a strip of EL under my glareshield to help light the steam gauges in my panel. One guy I talked to said this is the same stuff as the "Indiglo" (soft blue color) used in wristwatches....does this mean that wristwatches and the aformentioned avionics (green in color) have tiny inverters in them to run the EL lighting, or am I getting all confused here? Bottom line is I'm wondering if the dimmers sold by Bob or Van can be used to dim EL lighting by varying the voltage into the inverter that powers the EL? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A fuselage, ordering Finish Kit this week, planning wiring.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Help With Finding Molex Crimp Pin
> >Hi, >I'm currently wiring my -6. > >I'm just at the point where I want to wire up my used King KY-97A >transciever but I need some new crimp pins for the edge connector at the >back >of the wiring tray. These are molex numbers 08-03-0303 (18-20 ga) and >08-03-0306 (22-26 ga). I've had no luck locating these >in small quantities. Mouser has them but wants $100 minimum order to Canada. >Digi-Key doesn't seem to carry them. I have never seen anything about this >on the aeroelectric or other lists. Does everyone have new avionics except >me? I could solder my wires onto the old terminals, but that isn't good >practice IMHO. Does anyone know of a source for these that would sell me 20 >or so by mail order? I think these come in standard packages of 100 pieces. I think they're about $0.05 each. A couple of packages would run about $10 plus shipping to my address. Another $6 or so would send them on to you via letter post. If you'd like for me to procure these and forward them to you at my cost, just put an order in at my website order page http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html Put the part numbers in the comments box at the bottom of the form. Bob . . . ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find arguments ) ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does not ) ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like a ) ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? " ) ( - Epictetus ) http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dimmer questions
> >A few dimmer questions from a dimmer dimwit... > >1) Is there any difference in operation, reliability or performance >between 'Lectric Bob's dimmers and the ones Vans sells? Don't know what's inside the product Van offers nor how it's built . . . generally speaking, "dimmers is dimmers." >2) How close together can the dimmers be mounted (Bob's or Vans)? In >other words if I want to have two or three dimmers in a row on my panel, >what approx. spacing do I need between the knobs? Our potentiometers mount in 1/4" holes and have a diameter of 1/2" behind the panel. You can easily mount the pots on 0.55" centers. >3) It is my understanding that these dimmers can be used to dim the >backlighting on units such as the Microair comm and transponder, the >Grand Rapids EIS, etc. Is the backlighting on these units the same EL >stuff that is commercially available and powered by an inverter? I >discussed the EL lighting concept on the List a few weeks ago, regarding >the use of a strip of EL under my glareshield to help light the steam >gauges in my panel. One guy I talked to said this is the same stuff as >the "Indiglo" (soft blue color) used in wristwatches....does this mean >that wristwatches and the aformentioned avionics (green in color) have >tiny inverters in them to run the EL lighting, or am I getting all >confused here? If it's an "EL" backlight then there is an inverter in the product to drive it. > Bottom line is I'm wondering if the dimmers sold by Bob >or Van can be used to dim EL lighting by varying the voltage into the >inverter that powers the EL? Yes, the EL inverters are relatively insensitive to voltage adjusting the input voltage. Bob . . . ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find arguments ) ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does not ) ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like a ) ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? " ) ( - Epictetus ) http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ronald A. Cox" <racox(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 10/29/01
Date: Oct 30, 2001
> > A few dimmer questions from a dimmer dimwit... > > 2) How close together can the dimmers be mounted (Bob's or Vans)? In > other words if I want to have two or three dimmers in a row on my panel, > what approx. spacing do I need between the knobs? This one I can help with. In Bob's units, the little tiny potentiometer is remotely mounted from the circuit board, and they really are tiny. You could easily space them at 1" O.C., and probably closer. The boards are remotely mounted, and even they're tiny. Probably 3"x2", with a 9 pin D-sub connector. Very compact. The higher rated ones have heat sinks that make them a little bulkier, but the little pot's the same. Ron Glasair Super II F/T ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: LM566 wanted?
Date: Oct 31, 2001
I had a disc crash. Somebody wanted to know where to find LM566 DIPs. I suggest http://www.cpcares.com/elecparts @ $2.32 per. Ferg Europa #A064 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Caig Labs Stuff
Date: Oct 31, 201
Hi, This company ( Caig Labs ) makes products that they claim will "soak into metal surfaces and encourage them to conduct electricity". They've been around for years. Back when I was an instrument maintenance tech in the 70's, we used their "Cramolin" to treat switches, pots, and connectors. It seemed to do no harm. But I was never totally convinced that it was doing what they said, either. Anybody have experience with this stuff? - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2001
From: Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: Caig Labs Stuff
jerry(at)tr2.com wrote: > > > Hi, > > This company ( Caig Labs ) makes products that they claim will "soak into > metal surfaces and encourage them to conduct electricity". They've > been around for years. Back when I was an instrument maintenance tech > in the 70's, we used their "Cramolin" to treat switches, pots, and > connectors. It seemed to do no harm. But I was never totally convinced > that it was doing what they said, either. > > Anybody have experience with this stuff? > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) > I've never heard that it would "soak into metal surfaces and encourage them to conduct electricity" but it has always had an excellent reputation when used for cleaning & to prevent corrosion on contacts. Charlie (ET in a previous life) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Besing" <azpilot(at)extremezone.com>
Subject: Battery not lasting
Date: Nov 01, 2001
I have a new Concorde battery installed in my RV-6A. The battery works fine most of the time, but if I leave the master on for 10 minutes, or do some programming of my avionics for a short amount of time, the battery is almost dead. Also, if the battery sits for about a week and a half, it is in the same state. When I do finally get it started after a while of it turning the prop one or 2 turns then dying, the ammeter is reading around 35 amps until it charges back up. After a few minutes, it's down to 7 amps or so, which is where it normally is. Are aircraft batteries just not made to be able to run things without the engine running, or could there be something wrong with this battery? Bob? Thanks. Paul Besing RV-6A N197AB Arizona http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing Flying Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software http://www.kitlog.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2001
From: Rob Mokry <robmokry(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Genave Marker Beacon Wiring Info
Does any one have a wiring diagram for a Genave #D 303 Marker Beacon receiver? The plug has only 4 wires.... 1.Green & White 2. Red and white with thin blue stripe 3. Black and white with thin red stripe 4. Purple and white I would assume power, ground, audio, and ? Thanks Rob Mokry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery not lasting
> >I have a new Concorde battery installed in my RV-6A. The battery works fine >most of the time, but if I leave the master on for 10 minutes, or do some >programming of my avionics for a short amount of time, the battery is almost >dead. Also, if the battery sits for about a week and a half, it is in the >same state. What's your bus voltage while the alternator is running? If in the range of 13.8 to 14.6 volts, then the battery is being properly supplied for charging and the battery is undoubtedly defective. If the bus voltage is lower, you need to correct the voltage regulation problem with the alternator. >When I do finally get it started after a while of it turning the prop one or >2 turns then dying, the ammeter is reading around 35 amps until it charges >back up. After a few minutes, it's down to 7 amps or so, which is where it >normally is. > >Are aircraft batteries just not made to be able to run things without the >engine running, or could there be something wrong with this battery? Need more data. The battery should be able to run minimum loads in your airplane for HOURS . . . not minutes. Bob . . . ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find arguments ) ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does not ) ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like a ) ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? " ) ( - Epictetus ) http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Genave Marker Beacon Wiring Info
> >Does any one have a wiring diagram for a Genave #D 303 Marker Beacon receiver? >The plug has only 4 wires.... >1.Green & White >2. Red and white with thin blue stripe >3. Black and white with thin red stripe >4. Purple and white > >I would assume power, ground, audio, and ? >Thanks >Rob Mokry It's unusual for a black box like a radio to be fitted with pendant cables . . . the colored wires are probably fitted to some form of connector on the radio. The manufacturer's diagram will identify functionality of the connections based on pin numbers or letters in the connector. Call a local avionics shop and see if they have the service manual in their library. They might be able to read you the pinout data over the phone. Bob . . . ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find arguments ) ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does not ) ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like a ) ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? " ) ( - Epictetus ) http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Faulty address for elec parts....
Date: Nov 01, 2001
Larry MacDonald of Rochester et al: My apologies! The proper address (at least that's what shows when I select the favourite) is: http://www.cpcares.com/ELECPART.html It's not easy when you're stupid............. Cheers, Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: 'lectric Bob's signoff.....
Date: Nov 01, 2001
Bob: I just came bach from UK and been broadcasting your address for those who weren't aware of your existence. In the process, I mentioned your earlier signoff which read "Make my day. Show me where I'm wrong". I think in deference to my exertions, you might resume this motto and clear my name........... Ferg Europa #A064 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Battery not lasting
Date: Nov 01, 2001
Don't GelCels require a higher charging voltage than most alternators are regulated at? Scott in Vancouver ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery not lasting > > > > >I have a new Concorde battery installed in my RV-6A. The battery works fine > >most of the time, but if I leave the master on for 10 minutes, or do some > >programming of my avionics for a short amount of time, the battery is almost > >dead. Also, if the battery sits for about a week and a half, it is in the > >same state. > > > What's your bus voltage while the alternator is running? > If in the range of 13.8 to 14.6 volts, then the battery > is being properly supplied for charging and the battery is > undoubtedly defective. > > If the bus voltage is lower, you need to correct the voltage > regulation problem with the alternator. > > > >When I do finally get it started after a while of it turning the prop one or > >2 turns then dying, the ammeter is reading around 35 amps until it charges > >back up. After a few minutes, it's down to 7 amps or so, which is where it > >normally is. > > > >Are aircraft batteries just not made to be able to run things without the > >engine running, or could there be something wrong with this battery? > > Need more data. The battery should be able to run minimum loads > in your airplane for HOURS . . . not minutes. > > > Bob . . . > > ( "If a man opposes evident truths, it is not easy to find rguments ) > ( by which we shall make him change his opinion. But this does ) > ( arise either from the man's strength or the teacher's weakness; for ) > ( when the man, though he has been confuted, is hardened like ) > ( stone, how shall we then be able to deal with him by argument? ) > ( - tetus ) > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse/aeroelectric-list http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: UltraBat-13
From: "nknobil(at)gwi.net" <nknobil(at)gwi.net>
Date: Nov 01, 2001
Hey Folks! What does anybody have to say about the UltraBat-13 from Advanced Technology Products. It's a 12V 13AH RG Battery with 750A instantaneous (tho' I'm not sure what that means), and it weighs 10.5lbs. Does it enough oomph (that's a technical term...look it up) to turn over my O-360 with dual CDIs? I like that light weight, and these guys are the folks who make the StartStick, which is a pretty cool gadget. Nick Knobil Bowdoinham, Maine RV-8 N80549 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2001
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: 2001 List Fund Raiser - Please Support Your Lists...
Dear Listers, During November of each year, I have a voluntary Email List Fund Raiser to support the continued operation, development, maintenance and upgrade of the Forums sponsored here. Your contributions go directly into improvements in the systems that support the Lists and to pay for the Internet connectivity primarily dedicated to supporting the Lists. This year, I've made some substantial improvements to the Lists and the supporting systems. These upgrades are focused on making your experience here faster, more enjoyable, and most importantly, informative. Here is a partial list of improvements that I've made on the systems this year: o Upgraded Web Server - Minimum 6X increase in performance * - Tons more high performance disk space and memory! - Increased availability and reliability - UPS Backup - Improved support for > 130,000 Archive Searches each year! * See http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/RV-SearchTime.jpg o Email System Disk Subsystem Upgrade - More storage and faster access times - Faster redistribution of List Messages - Processed over 45,000 List messages in 2001; 50,000 in 2000! o All new List Browse Feature * - Browse the last seven day's worth of List Messages - Quick access to current threads - Sort messages by Thread, Date, Subject, or Author * See http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse o All new Photo Share Feature * & - Simply email your photos and files to share - Scanned for viruses - Automatic Web Page Generation - Includes descriptions and poster information * See http://www.matronics.com/photoshare & Officially to be announced soon o Transition To High Performance Internet Service Provider - Improved reliability - Better access from most sites on the Internet - Improved throughput These are just some of the more visible improvements I've implemented this year. I'm always working to improve the behind the scenes operation of the Lists. I've built an elaborate system of message text and source address filtering mechanisms to assure that you only receive text data in the message, spam is nearly non-existent, computer viruses are never propagated through the Lists, and that message post redistribution is smooth and trouble free. This year has seen a lot of improvements in the Email List experience. If you enjoy the Forums here and make use of the many features, won't you take a moment and make a Contribution to support the continued operation and maintenance? Please note there is no advertising funding on the Lists. You don't see annoying banner ads in the Email messages or on any of the web pages. This just seems more friendly to me and makes the List experience just that much more personal. The operation of these Lists is supported *completely* through the donations of List Members just like you! Please take a moment to support your Lists by making a Secure Credit Card Contribution at the following web site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or you may send a personal check to: Matronics Email Lists c/o Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 I would like to thank everyone in advance for their Contribution and for their continued support over the past year! Best regards, Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2001
From: Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Low maintenance wet cell batteries
This is not specifically aircraft related, but is battery and electrical related. I have an electric gate which operates off of a small, 60 month, 12v, wet cell auto battery. It has a modulated 2 Amp trickle charger connected continuously. I use Sears No Maintenance batteries which advertise that water never needs to be added. For the first two years, my batteries averaged less than six months before dying. Each gave off a rotten egg smell for a few days before dying. Sears replaced them at no cost or for a low pro rated amount. When the latest one died, I pried off the cell covers and found the cells completely dry. Upon taking delivery of the new battery, I pried off the cell cover before installing. The water level was below the top of the plates in every cell. I filled the cells with distilled water, installed in the gate, and it has now operated continuously for nearly two years. Lesson learned: Check the water level of No/Low Maintenance Wet Cell Batteries early and often. Question for Bob: Once a wet cell battery has been abused to the point where a cell or cells run dry, can the battery be rejuvenated by adding water or acid and charging? Or should it just be pitched? Charlie Brame RV-6A QB N11CB (Res) San Antonio ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2001
From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
Subject: Re: Low maintenance wet cell batteries
At 10:24 AM 11/2/2001Charles Brame sez: clip clip > Check the water level of No/Low Maintenance Wet Cell Batteries >early and often. Odd that they would be so noticeably low when brand spanking new. You have a couple of issues here. First, as I understand it, the reason they are no/low maintenance is that when they are charging a certain amount of hydrolysis occurs with accompanying dissociation of the hydrogen and oxygen molecules if the charging attempts to raise the voltage higher than the fully charged voltage and the resulting gas is absorbed into some of the material in the cell and when the battery is discharged, some or possibly all of this gas recombines into water. The older batteries just vented the dissociated gas. There is a limit to the capacity for absorbing the dissociated water molecules products (oxygen and hydrogen) and after that limit is reached the gas leaves the battery. I believe "trickle chargers" ruin batteries by attempting to over charge them. They are current regulated and not voltage regulated devices. So, after the battery is completely charged, it is then dried out by continued hydrolysis or as some say - boiled away. The solution for longer life of your gate battery is a better charging regulator. It may need to have temperature compensation built in too since a cold battery has a lower peak voltage. As to the fill level in a new battery, I don't think the RG (recombinant gas) batteries have visible fluid level if you crack them open and "gel cels" aren't made anymore as far as I know. So the No/Low maintenance batteries must be some hybrid if they have a visible fluid level and aren't RG batteries at all. I don't know what would make them No/Low maintenance unless they had something that would absorb the hydrogen and oxygen gases during charging and give them up in the form of water during discharge. >Question for Bob: Once a wet cell battery has been abused to the point >where a cell or cells run dry, can the battery be rejuvenated by adding >water or acid and charging? Or should it just be pitched? I know you can't add acid. If you add water and it will take and hold a charge it wasn't ruined. Batteries have more cranking power the higher the maximum charged voltage is. Your battery needs to have voltage regulation set to give it enough reserve for use. Lets say your battery is fully charged at 13.8 volts in warm weather you would have the maximum stored energy when the battery voltage is 13.8 volts. However you might have half the reserve power at 12.0 volts maximum charge and if you let the voltage drop to say 10 volts before charging then turn off the charger when the voltage is 12 volts, you'd never be overcharging the battery and it might last 10 years. Maybe more. The battery in my pickup lasted 11 years while the same battery in my Corvette had to be replaced 3 or 4 times in that period. The Corvette was parked for extended periods and the battery went completely dead and was left that way for months at a time. Life was only a couple years. My pickup driven nearly everyday and the battery kept warm in the garage lasted for a very long time. Its voltage fully charged was 13.8 volts and I believe car batteries can be charged higher than that. I know Bob has said why non RG batteries are called No/Low maintenance now. And Bob also can provide the actual voltages for full charge and half charge. The conclusion is that you should use a voltage regulated charger on that battery and you can set the full charge voltage just high enough to give you the needed capacity and you will see a very long life on it. ** L I N U X ** .~. Paul A. Franz, P.E. Engineering Software The Choice /V\ Blackdog Software Network Consulting and Sales of the GNU /( )\ <http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/> Custom Web Services Generation - (425) 641-8202, (425) 641-1773 FAX Internet FAX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Low maintenance wet cell batteries
Date: Nov 02, 201
Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote: > > I believe "trickle chargers" ruin batteries by attempting to over charge > them. They are current regulated and not voltage regulated devices. So, > after the battery is completely charged, it is then dried out by continued > hydrolysis or as some say - boiled away. > *** Amen. I had a 50 A-H battery in my room to power a ham radio station. I kept it on a constant 50-mA charge - surely such a tiny trickle couldn't hurt such a big battery! It boiled that sucker dry. I believe that there is NO charge rate small enough to be harmless, when a battery is fully charged. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com>
Subject: Trickle charging big batteries
Date: Nov 03, 2001
Listers, I have a Bonanza with the 28-volt electrical system. I'd like to put it onto a maintenance charger, since my flying always goes way down in these northern months of darkness, pre-heat-required cold, iced-in and iced-up hangars and crazy schedules. The chargers I've seen seem suitable for 14v batteries, not 28v. Any suggestions? (And I want something I can leave attached; I don't live near, or commute close to, the airport). Thanks. Rick McCraw A-36 Bonanza ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Knicholas2(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 2001
Subject: relay questions
I intend to have switches on the stick of my RV9 for ptt, flaps and fuel pump. (The manufactureer of the electric trim has included the appropriate relays for that function). I am very confused about how to wire in relays and which ones to use for the fuel pump and flaps. Can you offer help? Kim Nicholas Seattle RV9 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low maintenance wet cell batteries
> >Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote: >> >> I believe "trickle chargers" ruin batteries by attempting to over charge >> them. They are current regulated and not voltage regulated devices. So, >> after the battery is completely charged, it is then dried out by continued >> hydrolysis or as some say - boiled away. >> >*** Amen. > > I had a 50 A-H battery in my room to power a ham radio station. I kept >it on a constant 50-mA charge - surely such a tiny trickle couldn't hurt >such a big battery! It boiled that sucker dry. > > I believe that there is NO charge rate small enough to be harmless, >when a battery is fully charged. A "trickle" charger can be made battery friendly by adding an adjustable, shunt regulator circuit across the charger's output terminals set for 13.8 volts. -OR- you can take a hand full of parts from Radio Shack and build a 13.8 volt regulated power supply using a "wall wart" good for 100 mA or better. RG batteries really don't need to be "maintained" . . . I have several batteries I keep under my workbench for heavy current supply testing tasks. I also used them to run small inverters to power up portable test equipment. I've been taking them off the shelf about every six months and hook them to a 13.8 volt power supply . . . the magnitude and duration of charging current flow suggests that the battery was asking for very little energy to replace what was lost internally since the last charge. Since the self discharge rate of a battery is temperature dependent, you need not concern yourself about storing over the winter . . . just put the airplane away with a fully charged battery and it will crank the engine up just fine next spring. If you need to do long term storage in a hot location (Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, etc.) then pull the battery out and take it home. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low maintenance wet cell batteries
> >I have an electric gate which operates off of a small, 60 month, 12v, >wet cell auto battery. It has a modulated 2 Amp trickle charger >connected continuously. I use Sears No Maintenance batteries which >advertise that water never needs to be added. For the first two years, >my batteries averaged less than six months before dying. Each gave off a >rotten egg smell for a few days before dying. Sears replaced them at no >cost or for a low pro rated amount. When the latest one died, I pried >off the cell covers and found the cells completely dry. Upon taking >delivery of the new battery, I pried off the cell cover before >installing. The water level was below the top of the plates in every >cell. I filled the cells with distilled water, installed in the gate, >and it has now operated continuously for nearly two years. Lesson >learned: Check the water level of No/Low Maintenance Wet Cell Batteries >early and often. > >Question for Bob: Once a wet cell battery has been abused to the point >where a cell or cells run dry, can the battery be rejuvenated by adding >water or acid and charging? Or should it just be pitched? I'd have to dig out the books for a detailed understanding but a broad brush hypothesis might go like this: A lead-acid battery is designed to operated within a specific range of acid concentration. When you use a hydrometer to test a battery's "charge", you are simply measuring the relative density of a sample of liquid extracted from the battery. That density versus charge calibration assumes that the battery was initially charged with the proper ratio of acid and water. I've had conversation with folk who assumed that when a battery could no longer be charged (as evidenced by an inability to sufficiently raise hydrometer density measurements) attempted to resurrect the battery by adding more acid. Sure enough, liquid density went up . . . but whatever performance capabilities the battery had left went down. We know from high school chemistry that you can take two volumes of hydrogen and one of oxygen, combust them together and convert the entire mass of the two gasses to water. If you have an excess of either constituent before the experiment starts, you'll have that excess left over when the experiment terminates. Batteries have a balanced mixture of reactants that strive to optimize any left over components. It's axiomatic that anything stirring around in there that doesn't help the battery perform will at least be in the way and at worst, might be detrimental to the battery's chemistry performance. The only way to get an accurate answer to your question would be to do a hydrometer test on your new battery after it had been setting on a 13.8 volt power supply for a while. This further assumes that the manufacturer is willing to share the idealized 100% charge density for their electrolyte as shipped. That measurement would tell you whether the battery had indeed lost water or was short on original electrolyte charge. The fact that you're getting a poor service life on a new battery that doesn't get deep-cycled points to a potential over-charging situation. Put a voltmeter on your battery. For continuous float charging applications, I'd strive for 13.8 volts. If the charger is adjustable, I'd bump it up to 14.2 for wintertime and back down to 13.8 for other weather. You might also consider going to an RG battery. There are tons of suppliers and manufacturers of truly maintenance free batteries which (if your battery charger is doing the right job) will give you years of service in this application. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 'lectric Bob's signoff.....
> >Bob: > I just came bach from UK and been broadcasting your address for >those who weren't aware of your existence. In the process, I mentioned your >earlier signoff which read "Make my day. Show me where I'm wrong". > I think in deference to my exertions, you might resume this >motto and clear my name........... >Ferg >Europa #A064 Haven't used that one in a long time. Dug around in the archives and found only one message that used it! At your suggestion, I'll resurrect it for awhile . . . Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: Low maintenance wet cell batteries
Date: Nov 03, 2001
Dave Carter chiming in with some of what I've learned: See imbedded answsers below, preceded by DC. ----- Original Message ----- (Bob's response to someone else) From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low maintenance wet cell batteries > > > >I have an electric gate which operates off of a small, 60 month, 12v, > >wet cell auto battery. It has a modulated 2 Amp trickle charger > >connected continuously. I use Sears No Maintenance batteries which > >advertise that water never needs to be added. For the first two years, > >my batteries averaged less than six months before dying. Each gave off a > >rotten egg smell for a few days before dying. Sears replaced them at no > >cost or for a low pro rated amount. When the latest one died, I pried > >off the cell covers and found the cells completely dry. Upon taking > >delivery of the new battery, I pried off the cell cover before > >installing. The water level was below the top of the plates in every > >cell. I filled the cells with distilled water, installed in the gate, > >and it has now operated continuously for nearly two years. Lesson > >learned: Check the water level of No/Low Maintenance Wet Cell Batteries > >early and often. > > > >Question for Bob: Once a wet cell battery has been abused to the point > >where a cell or cells run dry, can the battery be rejuvenated by adding > >water or acid and charging? Or should it just be pitched? > > I'd have to dig out the books for a detailed understanding > but a broad brush hypothesis might go like this: A lead-acid > battery is designed to operated within a specific range of > acid concentration. When you use a hydrometer to test a battery's > "charge", you are simply measuring the relative density of a > sample of liquid extracted from the battery. That density > versus charge calibration assumes that the battery was initially > charged with the proper ratio of acid and water. > I've had conversation with folk who assumed that when a battery > could no longer be charged (as evidenced by an inability to > sufficiently raise hydrometer density measurements) attempted > to resurrect the battery by adding more acid. Sure enough, liquid > density went up . . . but whatever performance capabilities the > battery had left went down. DC: Most of my well maintained Champion batteries in my two Ford Escorts last about 2 years - sometimes 1, sometimes 3, and I've retained the name and number for an engineer at Champion that I give feedback to and learn from. - Mostly I see one cell out of the six goes down on electrolyte density (stops taking a charge). He says the cell dies from "whiskers" growing between plates and shorting them out. I've saved good sulphuric acid electrolyte and tried adding it to this type of failed battery and it didn't help at all. - I've never run one dry - but the engineer said that the kiss of death is letting a battery sit for more than a day in a discharged state - he said that is when the "whiskers" grow. So, when I've had an alternator failure and didn't know it (still putting out 12v with 1 of the 3 diodes failed so everything runs OK at night - until the battery finally goes down because it can't be charged on only 12v output of the bad alternator), then the battery has been down already for a while. Then, when I diddle around for a few more days before getting the alternator fixed, and DON'T put the battery on a charger during that "waiting period", I usually wind up replacing the battery as well as fixing the alternator. DC: Once I went to Wal-Mart with my "eye dropper-with-four-balls" tester for electrolyte density and found most of the brand new batteries (made that same month) were floating only 3 balls. I finally found one that floated all 4 balls and bought it. I called my engineer contact and he said the factory installs lower density electrolyte down south where it is warmer (I live in SE Texas where it basically never freezes). He said floating 3 balls or 4 is insignificant down here. - The big thing is that all the cells be about the same, not having one that floats zero balls (all 4 drop like a rock) and the density won't come up after the battery has been on a charger overnight. That means a bad cell - not going to be resurrected. > The only way to get an accurate answer to your question would > be to do a hydrometer test on your new battery after it had been > setting on a 13.8 volt power supply for a while. This further > assumes that the manufacturer is willing to share the idealized > 100% charge density for their electrolyte as shipped. > > That measurement would tell you whether the battery had indeed > lost water or was short on original electrolyte charge. The > fact that you're getting a poor service life on a new battery > that doesn't get deep-cycled points to a potential over-charging > situation. Put a voltmeter on your battery. For continuous > float charging applications, I'd strive for 13.8 volts. If the > charger is adjustable, I'd bump it up to 14.2 for wintertime > and back down to 13.8 for other weather. DC: I've mentioned this before: The battery charger I have been using for about 4 years to maintain a big M-B battery and another battery (two old cars stored away) is from Wal-Mart and does NOT keep charge voltage on continuously. It has some kind of current and voltage logic that looks like this when you put a digital voltmeter on it and watch: For a fully charged, healthy battery, with the battery charger set on 10 amps, the voltage goes up from the battery's 12.5 volts fully charged state to 14.5 VDC about instantly and then charging voltage and current is shut off. Then the battery simply free falls - very slowly if fully charged - for maybe 10 minutes or longer. When the charger sees 12.9 volts, it turn the juice back on. So, the battery is just getting a brief "kick" about every 10 minutes. I only added water to the battery being stored about once a year. - If the battery is in a bad state of discharge, maybe all 6 cells only floating 1 ball, then, on 2 amps, it takes maybe 10 minutes for the charging voltage to very slowly increase from 12.? to 14.5. When it reaches 14.5 and shuts off, the free fall to 12.9 only takes about 10 seconds, instead of 10 minutes. and then the charging juice is back on for another 10 minutes. As it charges, it takes less and less time to reach 14.5 volts and takes longer and longer to "free fall" to 12.9 volts. DC: Bob, didn't you (or someone else) mention once that if one just kept 12.5 volts, or maybe 12.8, on the battery CONTINUOUSLY, that it wouldn't charge the battery (and wouldn't "cook it"), but would keep it from decaying/losing charge? If true, then that would be a better procedure than continuous "trickle" charging at 13.8 or so. > You might also consider going to an RG battery. There are > tons of suppliers and manufacturers of truly maintenance > free batteries which (if your battery charger is doing the > right job) will give you years of service in this application. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Loram <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: Trickle charging big batteries
Date: Nov 03, 2001
We have a Batteries Plus (http://www.batteriesplus.com/) store here in southern Oregon. I purchased a Exide 5 amp, 24 volt charger/maintainer for use on a 10KW stationary motor-generator. It's been three years now on the cheapest pair of 12 volt batteries (wired in series) I could find. The batteries fire up the generator without a hitch, in the coldest weather, and I've never had to add water. I've had nothing but good experiences with this outfit. They have an incredibly wide range of products. I've bought batteries video equipment, computer UPSs, cell phones, automobiles, and portible power equipment (they will first try to recondition your nicads). They will accept all types of batteries for recycling. This page lists 180 locations, nationwide: http://www.batteriesplus.com/locator.html -john- -----Original Message----- From: Richard McCraw [mailto:rmccraw(at)wcvt.com] Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trickle charging big batteries Listers, I have a Bonanza with the 28-volt electrical system. I'd like to put it onto a maintenance charger, since my flying always goes way down in these northern months of darkness, pre-heat-required cold, iced-in and iced-up hangars and crazy schedules. The chargers I've seen seem suitable for 14v batteries, not 28v. Any suggestions? (And I want something I can leave attached; I don't live near, or commute close to, the airport). Thanks. Rick McCraw A-36 Bonanza http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: Battery Storage (a little off topic)
Date: Nov 04, 2001
All this battery discussion brings up a perennial boat argument: I live in Maine. The conventional wisdom on winter storage is to remove the batteries for the winter, and place them in a "warm place for storage". I have recently started fully charging them in the fall, and leaving them in the boat with the master switch off, all winter..it seems to me that as long as they are charged, they won't freeze, and that the self discharge rate should be slower at a lower temperature. There seem to be no ill effects from this.. the batteries seem to work well in the spring, and don't seem to take much charge in the spring. This would tend to confirm what Bob was saying about don't bother with trickle charging. Anyone care to comment? Boat batteries tend to be full size car units, or deep cycles depending on the use. they are Heavy, and usually a dry-stored boat is up and down a ladder with two or more big lead acid wet cells! I have been chided for being lazy.. but this is at least an hours' work on both ends of the season, and I'd rather spend it on mechanical maintenance! So am I lazy, or just efficient? Or both! Dave Leonard ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2001
From: Arthur Glaser <airplane(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Battery Storage (a little off topic)
One option if power is available might be to put a smart trickle charger on a timer so it goes on for 30 min or less per day. I have also heard of people hooking it up to the lights on a garage door opener which will also give just a few minutes of charging per day. I am sure Bob would know best as to whether this would be safe and effective. "David A. Leonard" wrote: > > All this battery discussion brings up a perennial boat argument: > > I live in Maine. The conventional wisdom on winter storage is to remove the > batteries for the winter, and place them in a "warm place for storage". I > have recently started fully charging them in the fall, and leaving them in > the boat with the master switch off, all winter..it seems to me that as long > as they are charged, they won't freeze, and that the self discharge rate > should be slower at a lower temperature. There seem to be no ill effects > from this.. the batteries seem to work well in the spring, and don't seem to > take much charge in the spring. > > This would tend to confirm what Bob was saying about don't bother with > trickle charging. > > Anyone care to comment? > > Boat batteries tend to be full size car units, or deep cycles depending on > the use. they are Heavy, and usually a dry-stored boat is up and down a > ladder with two or more big lead acid wet cells! > > I have been chided for being lazy.. but this is at least an hours' work on > both ends of the season, and I'd rather spend it on mechanical maintenance! > > So am I lazy, or just efficient? Or both! > > Dave Leonard > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: relay questions
> >I intend to have switches on the stick of my RV9 for ptt, flaps and fuel >pump. (The manufactureer of the electric trim has included the appropriate >relays for that function). I am very confused about how to wire in relays >and which ones to use for the fuel pump and flaps. Can you offer help? > >Kim Nicholas >Seattle >RV9 There are thousands of variations on a theme when it comes to relay selection. The astute designer can spend a lot of time achieving an optimum selection with respect to price, availability, space and longevity for the decision. We've stocked a rather generic, single pole, double throw relay (S704-1) in our website catalog as a device that will function well in most of the applications involving power switching in a small airplane. It's a low cost device that survives well under the hood of a car - IMNSHO entirely suited for use in airplanes. Utilization of a single part number in as many relay applications as possible allows you to stock one spare to cover many requirements. Relays are simple extensions of switches. A little study of how relays are used in the various diagrams published on our website and in the 'Connection should give you a means for moving forward with your design. Use the stick-grip button or switch to operate the relay - use the relay to operate the appliance. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2001
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: List Fund Raiser Off to a Slow Start...
Hi Listers, First I want to take everyone that has taken a minute already to make a Contribution to support the Email Lists in 2001! I also really appreciate all the kind words I've been receiving regarding the Lists and how much they mean to everyone. The testimonial means a lot to me and makes the many hours working on the system worth it!! Later in the month, I'll share a few of the kind words with the Lists. I've added a nifty new Bar Graph Thermometer to the message trailer that gives an up-to-the-minute percentage status of how many members have made a Contribution during 2001! It was a fun piece of code to write and hopefully will be a fun way to watch the Fund Raiser's Progress this year! As I've said in the past, the Lists are supported *completely* through your generous Contributions during the Fund Raiser and throughout the year. This includes all of the system and connectivity upgrades we seen, as well as makes the many hours I spend each month keeping the systems running even more enjoyable ;-). Won't you take a moment and make a Contribution right now to support your Lists? Its fast and easy with the On-line, SSL secure Credit Card system, or by direct US-Mailing a check. For complete information, please see the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you in advance for your Generous Contribution!! Best regards, Matt Dralle Email List Administrator PS - Don't forget to monitor the Fund Raiser Bar Graph below! Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob A" <racker(at)rmci.net>
Subject: Voltmeter Hookup
Date: Nov 04, 2001
I am wiring my aircraft mostly per Aeroelectric drawing Z-2 (without the aux battery circuit). I am using an Allegro electronic engine/systems monitor, which has seperate leads for the main device power and the voltmeter function. I am hooking up main power to the essential bus (the monitor consumes little power while providing complete engine/system info during essential bus ops). But where to hook up the voltmeter? 1) Essential bus, voltmeter does not read actual battery voltage (diode voltage drop). 2) Main bus, voltmeter ceases to function if operating off the essential bus. 3) Fused lead direct to battery, however I don't know if the monitor may be damaged when its turned off and the voltmeter is still hot 24/7. All thoughts welcomed. Is there some type of device/circuit that would switch the voltmeter automagically from main to essential? Can this be done without such a device using the components in the Z-2 diagram as is? Thanks, Rob Acker (RV-6) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: Battery storage
Date: Nov 05, 2001
>>There seem to be no ill effects from this.. the batteries seem to work well in the spring, and don't seem to take much charge in the spring. This would tend to confirm what Bob was saying about don't bother with trickle charging. Anyone care to comment? Boat batteries tend to be full size car units, or deep cycles depending on the use. they are Heavy, and usually a dry-stored boat is up and down a ladder with two or more big lead acid wet cells! I have been chided for being lazy.. but this is at least an hours' work on both ends of the season, and I'd rather spend it on mechanical maintenance! So am I lazy, or just efficient? Or both!<< At first I brought my boat batteries home for the winter. Then I got lazy and charged them up good and disconnected the cables just in case there was current leakage somewhere. Then I got lazier and just walked away and left them. That seemed to work the best (read easiest) and I never had a problem. Now I have this "hobby" car that seems to have a drain somewhere that I can't find - it goes dead now and then and the batteries last no time at all. An aircraft with a master relay should be pretty safe to just go off and leave. If there is an internal leak in the battery and it goes dead by itself it was time to replace it anyway. At least that's my theory. Gary Casey C177RG, Lancair project ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Loram <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: Battery storage
Date: Nov 05, 2001
Here is a link to an good source of lead-acid battery information. http://www.batteriesincorporated.com/questions/index.html One of the bulletins directly addresses Winter Storage. -john- -----Original Message----- From: Gary Casey [mailto:glcasey(at)gte.net] Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery storage >>There seem to be no ill effects from this.. the batteries seem to work well in the spring, and don't seem to take much charge in the spring. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 2001
From: Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org>
Subject: Fuel Gauge calibration
I am using VDO fuel gauge senders and ISSPRO fuel gauges. I have found that they work, but do not reflect full movement like I would like them to, i.e., it reads 1/8 when empty, and pegs the meter when full. I have found they read much better if I put a 22 ohm resistor in series with the sender, making empty read just off the E mark, and making full read right on the F mark. ( "Empty" and "full" positions are determined by actually rotating the tanks at this point - I want to get them reading ok just before I will be putting them in the wing.) My question is if there is anything wrong with doing this, and if not, should the resistor be placed at the sender or at the gauge, and are there any ideas about a rugged mount for adding a series resistor? Also, there are minor differences between sender and gauge combinations - is this normal? I was extra careful to make sure the senders were installed all exactly the same way. Thanks, Gary Liming ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us>
Subject: Voltmeter Hookup
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Rob, I used one of Bob's relays to switch the voltmeter from the main to essential buss. I wired it so that the relay closes when the master is "on", and when the relay is closed the voltmeter reads the voltage from the main buss. When the relay is open (master switch "off"), the voltmeter reads the essential buss. Hope this helps. Ken Harrill RV-6, final assembly I am wiring my aircraft mostly per Aeroelectric drawing Z-2 (without the aux battery circuit). I am using an Allegro electronic engine/systems monitor, which has seperate leads for the main device power and the voltmeter function. I am hooking up main power to the essential bus (the monitor consumes little power while providing complete engine/system info during essential bus ops). But where to hook up the voltmeter? 1) Essential bus, voltmeter does not read actual battery voltage (diode voltage drop). 2) Main bus, voltmeter ceases to function if operating off the essential bus. 3) Fused lead direct to battery, however I don't know if the monitor may be damaged when its turned off and the voltmeter is still hot 24/7. All thoughts welcomed. Is there some type of device/circuit that would switch the voltmeter automagically from main to essential? Can this be done without such a device using the components in the Z-2 diagram as is? Thanks, Rob Acker (RV-6) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Anderson" <janderson412(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Low fuel warning
Date: Nov 07, 2001
I'm well into the wiring stage on my Kitfox Series 5. The fuel feeds from the two wing tanks into a centrally mounted header tank positioned behind the co-pilots seat. I feel it would be prudent to fit a low fuel warning unit to the header tank in case of a tank finger filter blockage, air lock etc. My question: Does anyone now of a simple way of doing this? Many thanks, er.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com>
Subject: warning lights
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Hi List, I want to run a light to my instrument panel that shows when there is energy to the starter. Is there any way to do this with out running a #2 wire back to the panel? Ed Perry eperry(at)san.rr.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jesse Kluijfhout, PE1RUI" <jessevli(at)zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: Re: warning lights
Date: Nov 06, 2001
A lamp parallel at youre starter would give this result. You could use a small wire for an press to test or normal warning light from the output connection of youre starter relay (I supose the starter relay is nearer to youre panel than youre starter). Connect the other side to ground, and youve got yourself a starter warning Regards, Jesse ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: warning lights > > Hi List, > > I want to run a light to my instrument panel that shows when there is > energy to the starter. Is there any way to do this with out running a #2 > wire back to the panel? > > > Ed Perry > eperry(at)san.rr.com > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Voltmeter Hookup
I am wiring my aircraft mostly per Aeroelectric drawing Z-2 (without the aux battery circuit). I am using an Allegro electronic engine/systems monitor, which has seperate leads for the main device power and the voltmeter function. I am hooking up main power to the essential bus (the monitor consumes little power while providing complete engine/system info during essential bus ops). But where to hook up the voltmeter? 1) Essential bus, voltmeter does not read actual battery voltage (diode voltage drop). If you KNOW there is a predictable amount of volatage drop, is this a problem? 2) Main bus, voltmeter ceases to function if operating off the essential bus. Which is why you wire it to the E-bus . . . The most important task the voltmeter has is to serve as a "fuel gage" during battery only operations. 3) Fused lead direct to battery, however I don't know if the monitor may be damaged when its turned off and the voltmeter is still hot 24/7. Why not tie it to the e-bus . . . if you want to take a peek at battery voltage, just close the alternate feed switch to bypass the diode. Once you've become acclimated to the new "normal" bus voltage, this action will probably become unnecessary. All thoughts welcomed. Is there some type of device/circuit that would switch the voltmeter automagically from main to essential? Can this be done without such a device using the components in the Z-2 diagram as is? Thanks, Rob Acker (RV-6) >Rob, >I used one of Bob's relays to switch the voltmeter from the main to >essential buss. I wired it so that the relay closes when the master is >"on", and when the relay is closed the voltmeter reads the voltage from the >main buss. When the relay is open (master switch "off"), the voltmeter >reads the essential buss. This feature is built into our VLM-14 volt/ammeter product. A relay on the ECB moves the voltmeter sense point to the main bus if the main bus is hot. If the main bus is shut down, the relay relaxes and moves the voltmeter sense point to the e-bus . . . but all this "convenience" adds to part count . . . consider carefully how much this feature really offers in terms of comfortable operation of your airplane. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: warning lights
> >Hi List, > >I want to run a light to my instrument panel that shows when there is >energy to the starter. Is there any way to do this with out running a #2 >wire back to the panel? Sure. Attach to the starter's main power terminal with an in-line fuse holder -OR BETTER YET- fabricate a 24AWG fusible link on the end of a 20AWG wire that takes power back to the instrument panel lamp fixture. See: http://209.134.106.21/articles/fuselink/fuselink.html Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RION BOURGEOIS" <rion(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Voltmeter Hookup
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Rob: I faced the same issue, and this is what I did to resolve it. I used a 2-3 toggle switch from B&C instead of a 1-3 toggle switch for my Essential Buss Switch. I connected my voltmeter to pin 5, the essential buss to pin 4, and the main buss to pin 6. When the Master Switch is on and the Essential Buss Switch off, the voltmeter reads the voltage at the main buss. When the Essential Buss Switch is turned on, the voltmeter reads the voltage at the essential buss. If you decide later that you don't want the voltmeter on when the Master Switch is off and the Essential Buss Switch is on to avoid this current drain, just pull the fuse at the essential buss connection. My Essential Buss Switch connections are as follows: 1 - to Ess Buss by 14 AWG to a 15 amp fuse (feeds the essential buss when switch is on) 2 - to Battery Buss by 14 AWG to a 15 amp fuse (feeds the essential buss when swtich is on) 3 - open (covered with heat shrink) 4 - to Ess Buss by 22 AWG to a 3 amp fuse (feeds the voltmeter from essential buss when switch is on) 5 - to voltmeter by 22 AWG 6 - to Main Buss by 22 AWG to a 3 amp fuse (feeds the voltmeter from main buss when switch is off and Master Switch is on) Good luck, Rion ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob A" <racker(at)rmci.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltmeter Hookup > > I am wiring my aircraft mostly per Aeroelectric drawing Z-2 (without the aux > battery circuit). I am using an Allegro electronic engine/systems monitor, > which has seperate leads for the main device power and the voltmeter > function. I am hooking up main power to the essential bus (the monitor > consumes little power while providing complete engine/system info during > essential bus ops). > > But where to hook up the voltmeter? > 1) Essential bus, voltmeter does not read actual battery voltage (diode > voltage drop). > 2) Main bus, voltmeter ceases to function if operating off the essential > bus. > 3) Fused lead direct to battery, however I don't know if the monitor may be > damaged when its turned off and the voltmeter is still hot 24/7. > > All thoughts welcomed. Is there some type of device/circuit that would > switch the voltmeter automagically from main to essential? Can this be done > without such a device using the components in the Z-2 diagram as is? > > Thanks, > > Rob Acker (RV-6) > > http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse/aeroelectric-list http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
From: ripsteel(at)edge.net (Mark Phillips)
Subject: Re: Low fuel warning
Hi John- I mounted a polypropylene magnetic reed float switch (McMaster-Carr pt# 46515K21, about $15) in each tank of my RV-6A just for this purpose, wired direct to panel mounted Jap-Shack LED's which should activate @ around 1/3 tank. You'll have to purchase or make a 1/2" NPT threaded flange to mount them (AN 867-4, available from Spruce for about $7, but I "rolled my own") and seal 'em with up (I used Pro-seal). Spruce also sells a "kit" for this purpose, but the total damage is closer to $45 ea. plus the flange. I got the idea from another builder (thanks, Chris!) but have yet to actually put gas in the tanks. If you'd like a photo of my installation, let me know. From the PossumWorks in TN Mark Phillips John Anderson wrote: > > I'm well into the wiring stage on my Kitfox Series 5. The fuel feeds fro> m the two wing tanks into a centrally mounted header tank positioned behi> nd the co-pilots seat. I feel it would be prudent to fit a low fuel warni> ng unit to the header tank in case of a tank finger filter blockage, air > lock etc. > My question: Does anyone now of a simple way of doing this? > Many thanks, > er.msn.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Subject: Re: RE: Voltmeter Hookup
From: <racker(at)rmci.net>
Ken and Bob, Thanks both for your input, its much appreciated. I did not think of using a relay. I did think about using a 2-3 instead of a 1-3 essential bus switch, using the second pole for selecting between main and essential bus on the voltmeter (voltmeter on terminal 5, e-bus voltage on 4, main bus voltage on 6 from master switch terminal 4). Is this plausible? > This feature is built into our VLM-14 volt/ammeter > product. A relay on the ECB moves the voltmeter sense > point to the main bus if the main bus is hot. If the > main bus is shut down, the relay relaxes and moves > the voltmeter sense point to the e-bus I saw that this capability was built into your product from the web page info. Nice product, if it had been available at the time I was purchasing systems it would have definitely been on my panel (right now I'm out of $$$, and already have a device with active low voltage notification so can't consider it). . . . but all this > "convenience" adds to part count . . . consider carefully > how much this feature really offers in terms of comfortable > operation of your airplane. Understood. Still new to this stuff though, so that still leaves me wondering what is the most comfortable choice. 1) Add the relay and drive up parts count (valid working solution, but driving up parts count is undesirable imo). 2) The essential bus switch substitution (if workable). 3) Wire voltmeter to the essential bus and set active low voltage warning threshold to 12.3V (accounting for diode voltage drop). 4) Wire voltmeter to main bus and set active low voltage warning threshold to 13.0V, switch to e-bus if circumstances warrant, and accept one no longer has voltage reading capability. If option 1/2 is only a convenience and can be avoided, does option 3 or 4 yield the most comfortable operational solution? Thanks, Rob. > > I am wiring my aircraft mostly per Aeroelectric drawing Z-2 (without > the aux battery circuit). I am using an Allegro electronic > engine/systems monitor, which has seperate leads for the main device > power and the voltmeter function. I am hooking up main power to the > essential bus (the monitor consumes little power while providing > complete engine/system info during essential bus ops). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Subject: Re: Voltmeter Hookup
From: <racker(at)rmci.net>
Rion, I just get done sending a message asking if this is a viable solution, and there's your message stating it is . Thanks, gotta love these lists. I guess the only big difference that I came up with, is instead of having pin 6 from the 2-3 essential bus switch go directly to main bus voltage, I was thinking of feeding it through pin 6 on the 2-3 master switch. That way, the voltmeter is always off when both the essential bus and master switches are off. Rob Acker (RV-6). > > > Rob: I faced the same issue, and this is what I did to resolve it. I > used a 2-3 toggle switch from B&C instead of a 1-3 toggle switch for my > Essential Buss Switch. I connected my voltmeter to pin 5, the > essential buss to pin 4, and the main buss to pin 6. When the Master > Switch is on and the Essential Buss Switch off, the voltmeter reads the > voltage at the main buss. When the Essential Buss Switch is turned on, > the voltmeter reads the voltage at the essential buss. If you decide > later that you don't want the voltmeter on when the Master Switch is > off and the Essential Buss Switch is on to avoid this current drain, > just pull the fuse at the essential buss connection. My Essential Buss > Switch connections are as follows: > > 1 - to Ess Buss by 14 AWG to a 15 amp fuse (feeds the essential buss > when switch is on) > 2 - to Battery Buss by 14 AWG to a 15 amp fuse (feeds the essential > buss when swtich is on) > 3 - open (covered with heat shrink) > 4 - to Ess Buss by 22 AWG to a 3 amp fuse (feeds the voltmeter from > essential buss when switch is on) > 5 - to voltmeter by 22 AWG > 6 - to Main Buss by 22 AWG to a 3 amp fuse (feeds the voltmeter from > main buss when switch is off and Master Switch is on) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Subject: Re: Voltmeter Hookup
From: <racker(at)rmci.net>
> voltage, I was thinking of feeding it through pin 6 on the 2-3 master > switch. Typo...make that pin 4 on the 2-3 master switch. Rob. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Williams <sbw(at)sbw.org>
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Subject: Master Relay: How Hot?
How hot does a typical master relay get during normal operation? I never thought to check mine, and now a friend asked me after noticing that his relay gets very hot. He's worried that his relay isn't working properly. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jesse Kluijfhout, PE1RUI" <jessevli(at)zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: Re: Master Relay: How Hot?
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Hi Steve, Its normal that the relay gets so hot, you ask yourself if its ok... When I had it for the first time during an inspection I also thought it wasnt correct. Measuring the relay, was ok, after I touched other relays of other aircraft (same relay used for landing light for a Piper Chieftain), it became logic... They just get very hot... I would worry about it as long as it does work fine. Jesse ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Williams" <sbw(at)sbw.org> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Master Relay: How Hot? > > How hot does a typical master relay get during normal operation? I never thought to check mine, and now a friend asked me after noticing that his relay gets very hot. He's worried that his relay isn't working properly. > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject:
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Hi all, With a pal, we're involved in a Dyn Aero four seater kit. The engine being a rotax 914, the two fuel pumps are electrical. What could be the best circuit configuration to provide the necessary redundance ? I've got Bob's rev 9 book, but feel I may be lacking the "electrical expertise" to convince my partner and the technician we are calling upon. They may not be inclined to depart from "proven" designs in use in factory light planes. Thanks, Gilles Thesee France MCR 4S fuselage and controlsv nearing completion 130 kt TAS cruise on a rotax 914 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low fuel warning
> > > I'm well into the wiring stage on my Kitfox Series 5. The fuel feeds fro>m the two wing tanks into a centrally mounted header tank positioned behi>nd the co-pilots seat. I feel it would be prudent to fit a low fuel warni>ng unit to the header tank in case of a tank finger filter blockage, air >lock etc. >My question: Does anyone now of a simple way of doing this? >Many thanks, >er.msn.com You can build a float/magnet assembly that will actuate a reed switch when fuel falls below a specified level in the tank. My personal favorite is a reflective liquid level sensor like: http://www.newark.com/psearch/Description.jsp?sku=96F1247 I've designed several variations on this theme. Thousands are flying around in Beech (Raytheon) aircraft. You just stick it through the tank wall at the height of the liquid you want to detect. There are some manufactured reed switch/magnet assemblies like: http://www.newark.com/psearch/Description.jsp?sku=92F4695 I think the polysulfphone critters live well in gasoline. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RION BOURGEOIS" <rion(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Voltmeter Hookup
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Rob: if you sketch out my proposed voltmeter wire and essential buss switch routing over your circuit diagram, I think you will see that the voltmeter is off when both the master and essential buss switches are off. I have already wired this portion of my panel, and my voltmeter is definitely off when both the Master Switch and Essential Buss Switch are off. I also wired my canopy latch warning light to the voltmeter input stud so that I get a blinking LED if I open the canopy and either the master or essential buss switch are left on. Rion ----- Original Message ----- From: <racker(at)rmci.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltmeter Hookup > > Rion, > > I just get done sending a message asking if this is a viable solution, and > there's your message stating it is . Thanks, gotta love these lists. > > I guess the only big difference that I came up with, is instead of having > pin 6 from the 2-3 essential bus switch go directly to main bus voltage, I > was thinking of feeding it through pin 6 on the 2-3 master switch. > > That way, the voltmeter is always off when both the essential bus and > master switches are off. > > Rob Acker (RV-6). > > > > > > > Rob: I faced the same issue, and this is what I did to resolve it. I > > used a 2-3 toggle switch from B&C instead of a 1-3 toggle switch for my > > Essential Buss Switch. I connected my voltmeter to pin 5, the > > essential buss to pin 4, and the main buss to pin 6. When the Master > > Switch is on and the Essential Buss Switch off, the voltmeter reads the > > voltage at the main buss. When the Essential Buss Switch is turned on, > > the voltmeter reads the voltage at the essential buss. If you decide > > later that you don't want the voltmeter on when the Master Switch is > > off and the Essential Buss Switch is on to avoid this current drain, > > just pull the fuse at the essential buss connection. My Essential Buss > > Switch connections are as follows: > > > > 1 - to Ess Buss by 14 AWG to a 15 amp fuse (feeds the essential buss > > when switch is on) > > 2 - to Battery Buss by 14 AWG to a 15 amp fuse (feeds the essential > > buss when swtich is on) > > 3 - open (covered with heat shrink) > > 4 - to Ess Buss by 22 AWG to a 3 amp fuse (feeds the voltmeter from > > essential buss when switch is on) > > 5 - to voltmeter by 22 AWG > > 6 - to Main Buss by 22 AWG to a 3 amp fuse (feeds the voltmeter from > > main buss when switch is off and Master Switch is on) > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
From: Steve Kay <skay(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Low fuel warning
Here's another place for the same idea...http://www.ppavionics.com/LFL.htm "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > > > > > I'm well into the wiring stage on my Kitfox Series 5. The fuel feeds fro> >m the two wing tanks into a centrally mounted header tank positioned behi> >nd the co-pilots seat. I feel it would be prudent to fit a low fuel warni> >ng unit to the header tank in case of a tank finger filter blockage, air > >lock etc. > >My question: Does anyone now of a simple way of doing this? > >Many thanks, > >er.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Subject: Re: Voltmeter Hookup
From: <racker(at)rmci.net>
Yes, now that I look at it again both ways would work identically. Thanks for your input. I'm not worried about the drain of the voltmeter, since I have already decided to power the engine/systems monitor which incorporates the voltmeter during essential bus operations (200mA max draw). I was worried about a situation where the engine/system monitor would be powered off, but still being supplied a voltage through the voltmeter leads. After making a chart of all possible essential bus/main bus/system monitor/voltmeter combinations per my schematic, I see this is not possible. Good idea on the safety lights. Rob. > > > Rob: if you sketch out my proposed voltmeter wire and essential buss > switch routing over your circuit diagram, I think you will see that the > voltmeter is off when both the master and essential buss switches are > off. I have already wired this portion of my panel, and my voltmeter > is definitely off when both the Master Switch and Essential Buss > Switch are off. I also wired my canopy latch warning light to the > voltmeter input stud so that I get a blinking LED if I open the canopy > and either the master or essential buss switch are left on. Rion >> > If you decide later that you don't want the voltmeter on when the >> > Master Switch is off and the Essential Buss Switch is on to avoid >> > this current drain, just pull the fuse at the essential buss >> > connection ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com>
Subject: Re: warning lights
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Hi Again Bob, Same subject and more....Is the purpose of the fusible link to act like a fuse? If so why not just install an inline fuse? Next question is, I ordered the Starter contactor that Van's sells. I cannot find the documentation for it. It has 4 posts that are oriented straight out. from left to right they are Big, small, small, Big. I saw your starter contactor in the catalog and it says that you can run a starter engaged light from one of the posts. Can I do the same with this one and what should the connections be? I'm guessing from left to right Battery, ignition, ?, Starter. Am I close? Thanks, Ed Perry eperry(at)san.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: warning lights > > > > >Hi List, > > > >I want to run a light to my instrument panel that shows when there is > >energy to the starter. Is there any way to do this with out running a #2 > >wire back to the panel? > > Sure. Attach to the starter's main power terminal with > an in-line fuse holder -OR BETTER YET- fabricate > a 24AWG fusible link on the end of a 20AWG wire > that takes power back to the instrument panel lamp > fixture. > > See: > http://209.134.106.21/articles/fuselink/fuselink.html > > Bob . . . > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
From: Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Low fuel warning
John, I have a low fuel alarm circuit available which has audible and visual alarms.details upon request. Vern Smith/vismith(at)sympatico.ca John Anderson wrote: > > I'm well into the wiring stage on my Kitfox Series 5. The fuel feeds fro> m the two wing tanks into a centrally mounted header tank positioned behi> nd the co-pilots seat. I feel it would be prudent to fit a low fuel warni> ng unit to the header tank in case of a tank finger filter blockage, air > lock etc. > My question: Does anyone now of a simple way of doing this? > Many thanks, > er.msn.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HowardSColey(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Subject: Re: RE: Voltmeter Hookup
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
From: Thomas Velvick <tomvelvick(at)home.com>
Subject: alternator fan
Using Vans 35 amp alt. It comes with the fan removed. Are there any side effects or benefits to adding the fan back. I understand that it will be spinning CCW instead of CW. Regards, Tom Velvick N9233A rv-4 N188KJ rv-6a wiring ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Essential Bus
>Bob, > >I'm going to install an essential bus for my IFR equipped RV-8 utilizing the >B&C SD-20 as a standby power source. > >What is the continuous current rating of the diode you sell for this >application on the website? It's at least 25 amps . . . sometimes higher depending on the part we buy. At this current level the diode (as will any other diode) needs to be heatsinked. Do you think you're going to have/need a continuous e-bus load of 20A? > I haven't done an essential bus current budget >yet, but let's assume I lose my primary B&C alternator at night on an IFR >flight. I'd like to know if I can operate in that failure mode. My budget >is really limited by the diode, isn't it? Nope, the diode will handle everything the SD-20 will put out. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick" <turboflyer(at)mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: ND alternator
Date: Nov 06, 2001
Is there an easy way to fry the internal regulator when installing the OV protection. Seems I may have done so but would very much not like to do it again. I am showing a discharge on the volt/amp meter light and only 12.50 volts. Yes field lead is still live. Thanks Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: warning lights
Date: Nov 07, 201
Ed Perry wrote: > ** Hi Ed, You would run a wire back to the panel. But it doesn't need to be #2. It only needs to carry enough current to run the light. #18 should be fine. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: John <jderango(at)rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Low fuel warning
Hi My name is John DeRango, I am new to the mail list. I have a Kitfox 5. We used the low fuel warning system that came with the kit. it uses an optical sensor. Ours works very well. Let me know if you need any info. My problem is my trim is too fast. If anybody out there knows of a way to slow down the trim on a Kitfox 5 let me know. Thanks, John DeRango ===== GoodDay Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 07, 2001
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 11/03/01
In a message dated 11/04/2001 2:54:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: Listers, I have a Bonanza with the 28-volt electrical system. I'd like to put it onto a maintenance charger, since my flying always goes way down in these northern months of darkness, pre-heat-required cold, iced-in and iced-up hangars and crazy schedules. The chargers I've seen seem suitable for 14v batteries, not 28v. Any suggestions? (And I want something I can leave attached; I don't live near, or commute close to, the airport). Thanks. Rick McCraw A-36 Bonanza >> 11/06/01 Hello Rick, Both Dual Pro (Charging Systems USA) and Guest sell some very sophisticated (and expensive) battery chargers that you may want to consider. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Voltmeter Hookup
> >Rob: I faced the same issue, and this is what I did to resolve it. I used a >2-3 toggle switch from B&C instead of a 1-3 toggle switch for my Essential >Buss Switch. I connected my voltmeter to pin 5, the essential buss to pin >4, and the main buss to pin 6. When the Master Switch is on and the >Essential Buss Switch off, the voltmeter reads the voltage at the main buss. >When the Essential Buss Switch is turned on, the voltmeter reads the voltage >at the essential buss. If you decide later that you don't want the >voltmeter on when the Master Switch is off and the Essential Buss Switch is >on to avoid this current drain, just pull the fuse at the essential buss >connection. My Essential Buss Switch connections are as follows: That's pretty slick . . . wish I had thought of it! I'll include that option in the next update to the instrumentation section of the 'Connection. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Master Relay: How Hot?
> >How hot does a typical master relay get during normal operation? I never thought to check mine, and now a friend asked me after noticing that his relay gets very hot. He's worried that his relay isn't working properly. > typically 50 degrees or more above ambient . . . TOO HOT to touch. Temperatures of 200F or more would not hurt the device. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Tried and proven . . .
> >Hi all, > > >With a pal, we're involved in a Dyn Aero four seater kit. The engine being a >rotax 914, the two fuel pumps are electrical. >What could be the best circuit configuration to provide the necessary >redundance ? >I've got Bob's rev 9 book, but feel I may be lacking the "electrical >expertise" to convince my partner and the technician we are calling upon. >They may not be inclined to depart from "proven" designs in use in factory >light planes. The fact that you have a homebuilt airplane with a Rotax engine in it means you've already departed from "proven" or perhaps more appropriately "certified" designs. I guess the 912/914 combo is now certified in some very small airplanes . . . I think RANS has at least one installation and I think somebody is building one of the Zenairs as a European certified ship. 4 seats on 100 hp? Is this a "proven" design? I recall my one and only experience in a 2-place, 40 hp Cub . . . don't think I'd want to OWN one. Bottom line is that the old saws about "proven" are more appropriately called "tried and well understood." We've deduced value in applying good engineering analysis and modern technology to upgrade our airplanes based on our UNDERSTANDING of a decades-old design and maintenance philosophy. I cannot recommend that anyone take on a task that they do not understand and accept as useful based on understanding. I've had several builders over the years for whom I honestly advised that they take the wirebook for a C-172 and duplicate it in their RV . . . my goal for flight systems design and operation is "point A to point B flight without breaking a sweat." If you're tense about any proposal that departs from what you're already comfortable with, there's a strike against you even before you open the hangar door. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: alternator fan
> >Using Vans 35 amp alt. It comes with the fan removed. Are there any side >effects or benefits to adding the fan back. I understand that it will be >spinning CCW instead of CW. > >Regards, >Tom Velvick >N9233A rv-4 >N188KJ rv-6a wiring >=========================== Centrifugal fans are very nearly as efficient running "forward" as running "backwards". I'd leave it on if it doesn't cause any clearance problems. Since this alternator was designed to use the external fan, it's a fair bet that there are no internal fans like the Nipon-Dienso machines. I'm sure a lot of Van's alternators are flying . . . does he recommend ducted cooling? Given that even night VFR loads on most airplanes do not exceed 15 amps or so, this little guy is probably okay . . . but it would be interesting to thermocouple the critter and see how close it is to toast when loaded to rated output. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: warning lights
> >Ed Perry wrote: >> >** Hi Ed, > > You would run a wire back to the panel. But it doesn't need to be #2. It >only needs to carry enough current to run the light. #18 should be fine. But it DOES need to be protected from fault . . . the inline fuse is fine, the fusible link is fine. The fusible link is more robust in the under-the-cowl environment. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Tried and proven . . .
Date: Nov 07, 201
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > 4 seats on 100 hp? Is this a "proven" design? I > recall my one and only experience in a 2-place, > 40 hp Cub . . . don't think I'd want to OWN one. > *** Yikes! I learned to fly in an 85-HP Cessna 140 - I can confidently say that 40HP per person is pretty much the bare minimum. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Tried and proven . . .
Date: Nov 08, 2001
----- Message d'origine ----- De : : Envoy : mercredi 7 novembre 2001 21:46 Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tried and proven . . . ! > > I learned to fly in an 85-HP Cessna 140 - I can confidently say that 40HP > per person is pretty much the bare minimum. I'm afraid I cannot concur. As a flight instructor I'm regularly flying with to students in a 108 hp Robin cerified plane with excellent rate of climb. The Cessnas, despite rather good wing and flaps, have a lot of drag. But my goal is now to make decisions about the wiring. cheers, Gilles Thesee > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Tried and proven . . .
Date: Nov 08, 2001
> The fact that you have a homebuilt airplane with a > Rotax engine in it means you've already departed from > "proven" or perhaps more appropriately "certified" > designs. I guess the 912/914 combo is now certified > in some very small airplanes . . . we have many rotax engines flying in our area. I think RANS has > at least one installation Doesn't Rans make ultralights ? > > 4 seats on 100 hp? Is this a "proven" design? Yes ! check this link : http://members.aol.com/dynaero/ > recall my one and only experience in a 2-place, > 40 hp Cub . . . don't think I'd want to OWN one. Neither do I... Sorry, nothing to do with those Cub clones, Zenairs or ultralights. I flew a 4S last week, and am very happy we started that project. Good handling and the performance is really there ( GPS on the back seat). The key is good aerodynamics and reduced wetted surface.Three people on board. Besides, I logged about 20 flight hours as an instructor on the MCR 01 two seater : 150 GPS knots cruise at 6000 ft QNH and 5500 RPM on an 80 hp 912. Maybe you heard about Michel Colomban, who designed those nice little planes ? He is known for the Cri Cri 200 km/h, 80 kg twin. Some of them have flown in your country, and the two seater was flight tested in the States by several magazines some years ago. But maybe "not invented here" and all tthat stuff...;-) > > You're right about "proven" vs certified, but I wrote it between quotes. Serious, now. Please, what is your suggestion about a simple two batteries circuit with essential bus ? What I was trying to say is I need your advice to make the appropriate suggestions to my partner. Thanks in advance Gilles Thesee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Tried and proven . . .
Date: Nov 07, 201
gilles.thesee wrote: > > > > > I learned to fly in an 85-HP Cessna 140 - I can confidently say that > 40HP > > per person is pretty much the bare minimum. > > I'm afraid I cannot concur. As a flight instructor I'm regularly flying with > to students in a 108 hp Robin cerified plane with excellent rate of climb. > The Cessnas, despite rather good wing and flaps, have a lot of drag. *** You must be thinking of some other Cessnas. Cessna 140's have little tiny flaps - they hardly do anything at all. And they're taildraggers - so no draggy nosewheel. That's how a 140 with a C-85 could accomplish essentially the same performance as a 150 with an O-320. I remember it as a wonderful little airplane, and adequately, but not excessively, powered. - Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: Andrew Larkin <aj_larkin(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: noisy transmit with Microair 760 com radio
Bob, Thanks for your advice about the antenna. I haven't tried building a test antenna yet, but I do have an additional piece of diagnostic info that may mean something to expert ears. When I unplug the microphone jack of the headset, the noise goes away completely, even when I hit the PTT button. In fact, it turns out there was some very faint noise audible all the time -- not just when receiving. I hadn't noticed it before, as it was quite quiet, but this also goes away when I unplug the mic. Does this mean my headset has a bad mic, or is it more evidence for inadequate shielding of the mic wires? Thanks. > >The Microair 760 in my Glastar is working great except that when I transmit there is a lot of >random-sounding static. I get unsolicited comments from the control tower that I'm "strength 4, >readability 3". When receiving or with the engine off there is no noise. The noise seems to be >less at idle but turning off the alternator or either mag doesn't seem to affect it. The radio >and my 403mc intercom are wired as per Bob's diagram. I have two headphone/mic jacks behind the >right seat, and another set on the panel (bypassing the intercom). Anyone have any advice on >troubleshooting? I'm wondering if the PTT wires should be shielded as well as the mic wires. > >Thanks. The fact that your problem is transmit only suggests an antenna problem. If you've already checked potential for noise from the alternator/mags, we need to consider vibration induced noises . . . like from a poor connection in the antenna coax. I have some portable antennas I use to bypass the ship's antenna for these kinds of investigations. Cut a 47" piece of wire (22-14AWG . . . not critical) in half and solder one of the pieces to the center conductor and the other to the shield of about 15' of RG-58 coax. Put a BNC connector on the other end. Tape the dipole antenna to a piece of wood about 8' long so that when the mast is standing upright, the antenna is as far up the mast as possible and still supported by it . . . i.e., the end of the bottom antenna wire will be about 4' off the ground. Rig a wooden base to hold your test antenna mast. Set outside the airplane so that prop blast won't blow it over. Hook to radio and then see if folks you talk to can report any better performance. If the test antenna works "better" . . .be sure to go back to the original antenna to make sure the problem still exists. Do you have access to an SWR meter or better yet, an antenna analyzer to check out the ship's antenna and feedline quality? See: http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-259B http://www.wb0w.com/mfj/manuals/mfj259man.html Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: Thomas Velvick <tomvelvick(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: alternator fan
> > > > Since this alternator was designed to use the external > fan, it's a fair bet that there are no internal fans > like the Nipon-Dienso machines. I'm sure a lot of > Van's alternators are flying . . . does he recommend > ducted cooling? Given that even night VFR loads on > most airplanes do not exceed 15 amps or so, this little > guy is probably okay . . . but it would be interesting > to thermocouple the critter and see how close it is > to toast when loaded to rated output. Hi Bob, Thanks for the reply. I can only tell you that after running for about 10 minutes on the bench without the fan, it was much too hot to touch. So I will put the fan back on and add ducted cooling as well just for extra cooling margin. Regards, Tom Velvick > Bob . . . > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================= > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Revision 10 is at printer . . .
We'll be taking the artwork to the printer's in the morning and placing an order 1,000 revision 10 books. Something new this year . . . If you have an Revision 9 book and would like to update it from a website download, click on the three links below: http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/cover.pdf http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/ch1.pdf http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf The last two links are large . . . about 1.1 megabytes each . . . so expect it to take a bit of time. Acrobat Reader allows you to selectively print even/odd pages. Print the odd pages of each file first. Then re-order the pages and turn them over for a second pass through your printer to get the even pages. You'll end up with front and back printed pages that only need 3-hole punching to update your book. I've got a ton of e-mail catchup work to do . . . I've been really neglecting the fun stuff on the list while wrestling with our computers and stomping fires out at RAC. It will be a couple of weeks before we get back to "normal". We should be able to being Revision 10 shipments of complete books about the middle of next week. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: noisy transmit with Microair 760 com radio
> >Bob, > >Thanks for your advice about the antenna. I haven't tried building a test antenna yet, but I do >have an additional piece of diagnostic info that may mean something to expert ears. When I unplug >the microphone jack of the headset, the noise goes away completely, even when I hit the PTT >button. In fact, it turns out there was some very faint noise audible all the time -- not just >when receiving. I hadn't noticed it before, as it was quite quiet, but this also goes away when I >unplug the mic. Does this mean my headset has a bad mic, or is it more evidence for inadequate >shielding of the mic wires? Hmmmm . . . have you tried another microphone? Borrow one of those plain-vanilla hand held mikes and see how it behaves. Some modern microphones have electronics inside that may be vulnerable to RFI . . . but it's just as likely that there's something loose or failing in your microphone circuit. A simple substitution should tell the tail. Try another brand of headset/mic combo too. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Tried and proven . . .
> > You must be thinking of some other Cessnas. Cessna 140's have little >tiny flaps - they hardly do anything at all. And they're taildraggers - >so no draggy nosewheel. That's how a 140 with a C-85 could accomplish >essentially the same performance as a 150 with an O-320. > I remember it as a wonderful little airplane, and adequately, but not >excessively, powered. The C-120/140 series airplanes are excellent examples of how to clobber a perfectly good airplane by turning it into a C-150/152. The one I used to rent (and flew about 70 Young Eagles kids) had a cabin load of 470 pounds! If you could get the doors closed, you were under gross. Performance on the C-85 was just 4 knots slower than the C-150 with an O-200 and a 320 pound cabin load. After the C-85 J-3 left Benton Airpark, the C-85 C-120 became my favorite fun machine. It got rolled over during tail-dragger training when an overzealous student got on the brakes too hard. Nobody hurt but the airplane was totaled. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Tried and proven . . .
> >Serious, now. >Please, what is your suggestion about a simple two batteries circuit with >essential bus ? >What I was trying to say is I need your advice to make the appropriate >suggestions to my partner. > >Thanks in advance > > >Gilles Thesee Suggest you start with our website at http://www.aeroelectric.com and look over the several megabytes of downloadable data . . . not the least of which is the suite of power distribution diagrams from the back of our book. You can download the latest diagrams at: http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf Take a look at figure Z-16. Why two batteries? How do you plan to distribute their duties? Are you considering anything OTHER than a recombinant gas battery? The reliability of a maintained RG battery is so high that unless you have an electrically dependent engine with dual electrically powered ignition or fuel injection systems, the single battery paired you. You might also consider acquiring our book. The latest revision is going to press tomorrow morning and should be shipping in about a week. Check over the two illustrated catalog pages on the website Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick" <turboflyer(at)mediaone.net>
Subject: Nippon Denso alternator
Date: Nov 07, 2001
Hi all, Say I was sure hoping someone knew what could cause the voltage regulator to go out on the ND internal regulated alternator. Repair shop said I may have shorted out the alternator light circuit which in turn can cause the regulator to fail. I did mount my relay using one of the existing three bolts that appear to run through the back of the alt but they are not connected to anything I am aware of. I used a smaller lighter high amp relay instead of the big contactor. Any thoughts would be most welcome. Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: John Rourke <john@allied-computer.com>
Subject: Re: alternator fan
You can get a temperature meter that works instantaneously just by pointing a laser beam at the object, it works by focusing on the infrared "signature" of whatever you are pointing at. It goes up to 700 degrees F, so I plan to use it to check for hot spots on the engine itself (I also use it to monitor heat sinks and CPUs in computers) These used to cost $1000 or more, today you can get it from Grainger's for $97.50 -John Thomas Velvick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Since this alternator was designed to use the external > > fan, it's a fair bet that there are no internal fans > > like the Nipon-Dienso machines. I'm sure a lot of > > Van's alternators are flying . . . does he recommend > > ducted cooling? Given that even night VFR loads on > > most airplanes do not exceed 15 amps or so, this little > > guy is probably okay . . . but it would be interesting > > to thermocouple the critter and see how close it is > > to toast when loaded to rated output. > > Hi Bob, > Thanks for the reply. I can only tell you that after running for about 10 > minutes on the bench without the fan, it was much too hot to touch. So I > will put the fan back on and add ducted cooling as well just for extra > cooling margin. > > Regards, > Tom Velvick > > > Bob . . . > > > > //// > > (o o) > > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > > ================================= > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: static discharge and misc. questions
Date: Nov 08, 2001
A couple of random questions - I should spend more time building and less think, I suppose... I have a Lancair ES project (epoxy/glass structure, epoxy/graphite control surfaces). 1. The main gear is not connected to anything but glass fiber - non conductive. The battery(s) will be in the back, so I was thinking about grounding the steel gear legs to the ground wire. Is there any other use for the gear legs? Antenna? Back in Iowa it was said that we used every part of the pig but the squeal, so I thought there must be some use for these big steel things - besides holding the plane up, of course. 2. I wonder if the control rods should also be grounded to prevent static buidup from surprising the pilot. 3. Static discharge wicks on the conductive control surfaces? There was a Lancair IV that had a lightning strike recently - if faired pretty well, but it has a conductive fuselage and wings. It ended up with no welded hinges, so you could say it survived. Gary Casey Lancair ES project ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Nippon Denso alternator
>Say I was sure hoping someone knew what could cause the voltage regulator to >go out on the ND internal regulated alternator. Repair shop said I may have >shorted out the alternator light circuit which in turn can cause the >regulator to fail. I did mount my relay using one of the existing three >bolts that appear to run through the back of the alt but they are not >connected to anything I am aware of. I used a smaller lighter high amp relay >instead of the big contactor. Any thoughts would be most welcome. Use of an automotive alternator with built in regulator has some risk associated with it. There ARE failure modes within the regulators that may precipitate uncontrollable voltage run-away. By-in-large, the warning light driver built into these products are not terribly useful . . . the ONLY all inclusive warning system for monitoring alternator performance should be a low voltage sensing system that lights up for bus voltage below 13.0 volts. Ignore the built in lamp circuit. I presume the "relay" you cited is for the external ov protection. If I interpret your words correctly, you have mounted a relay right on the back of the alternator. This is not recommended. This subjects the relay to much higher vibration levels from the engine than it would experience if mounted on the firewall. I gotta be honest with you folks . . . I have published work-arounds for letting you "get by" with internally regulated alternators . . . I DON'T RECOMMEND THEM. When we design new systems for aircraft, I really lean on my compatriots to reduce if not eliminate relays in the system. Relays, especially those that carry heavy current -AND- get vibrated are some of the poorest performance devices in the airplane. This is why our latest and greatest Mach 2.5 GPS guided target has NO RELAYS in the power distribution system. I'd really like to see the automotive alternators get modified to use external regulation. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: static discharge and misc. questions
> >1. The main gear is not connected to anything but glass fiber - non >conductive. The battery(s) will be in the back, so I was thinking about >grounding the steel gear legs to the ground wire. Is there any other use >for the gear legs? Antenna? Back in Iowa it was said that we used every >part of the pig but the squeal, so I thought there must be some use for >these big steel things - besides holding the plane up, of course. We use engine mounts to hold engines on the airplane and put jumpers to crankcase to power starters. Engine mounts don't make good electrical conductors. We use landing gear to keep the belly from getting scratched up, they never make good antennas. >2. I wonder if the control rods should also be grounded to prevent static >buidup from surprising the pilot. Go to the Lancair list-servers and find out what people have been doing that works . . . there are tons of hangar tales offered by folks who are only passing along hearsay. >3. Static discharge wicks on the conductive control surfaces? Again . . . find out from the folks who do this stuff teller of tales can explain the physics of what he is talking about, be suspicious. Get to the source of the info and confirm its value before you drill any holes in your airplane. >There was a Lancair IV that had a lightning strike recently - if faired >pretty well, but it has a conductive fuselage and wings. It ended up with >no welded hinges, so you could say it survived. As long as the surface doesn't participate in strike conduction there will be no current in the hinge to precipitate a welding event. Interestingly enough, adding static wicks to surfaces may INVITE attachment of a streamer to the surface before the strike occurs. I'm guessing the best way to protect surfaces is to put the wicks on structure each side of the surface to encourage strike formation OFF the surface. HOWEVER, this is only considered theory . . . get your information from folks who really know. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: warning lights
> >Hi Again Bob, > >Same subject and more....Is the purpose of the fusible link to act like a >fuse? If so why not just install an inline fuse? fuses are fine too . . . just not as robust . . . especially when mounted out on the engine. >Next question is, I ordered >the Starter contactor that Van's sells. I cannot find the documentation for >it. It has 4 posts that are oriented straight out. from left to right they >are Big, small, small, Big. I saw your starter contactor in the catalog and >it says that you can run a starter engaged light from one of the posts. Can >I do the same with this one and what should the connections be? I'm guessing >from left to right Battery, ignition, ?, Starter. Am I close? Are there no markings on the contactor at all? If not, I suspect the part is a generic, 4-terminal contactor that may or may not be intermittent duty and optimized If it's a generic contactor, you have two fat terminals that control starter current, two little terminals that power up the coil. Be sure to add a diode across the coil http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-1l.jpg the labels in this photo are for building a 4-terminal battery master contactor. To convert to starter contactor remove jumper. Connect right hand small terminal ("to master switch") to ground. Apply power from starter button or switch to left hand small terminal (banded end of diode). Either fat terminal can go to starter. Other fat terminal goes to battery contactor. Starter engaged light needs to hook to the fat terminal that powers the starter . . . what your watching for is a stuck contactor which keeps the starter powered up after the contactor's coil is de-energized. //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick" <turboflyer(at)mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Nippon Denso alternator
Date: Nov 08, 2001
Bob, I'm kind of between a rock and a hard spot. I can move the relay to the firewall, not a biggie, but I thought the relay is what was required for an over voltage protection. At least that's what I thought i understood. Just removing power to the alternator field doesn't always assure the alt will shut down. What can i do with this ND alt to make it external regulated with OV protection. And thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions. Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Nippon Denso alternator >Say I was sure hoping someone knew what could cause the voltage regulator to >go out on the ND internal regulated alternator. Repair shop said I may have >shorted out the alternator light circuit which in turn can cause the >regulator to fail. I did mount my relay using one of the existing three >bolts that appear to run through the back of the alt but they are not >connected to anything I am aware of. I used a smaller lighter high amp relay >instead of the big contactor. Any thoughts would be most welcome. Use of an automotive alternator with built in regulator has some risk associated with it. There ARE failure modes within the regulators that may precipitate uncontrollable voltage run-away. By-in-large, the warning light driver built into these products are not terribly useful . . . the ONLY all inclusive warning system for monitoring alternator performance should be a low voltage sensing system that lights up for bus voltage below 13.0 volts. Ignore the built in lamp circuit. I presume the "relay" you cited is for the external ov protection. If I interpret your words correctly, you have mounted a relay right on the back of the alternator. This is not recommended. This subjects the relay to much higher vibration levels from the engine than it would experience if mounted on the firewall. I gotta be honest with you folks . . . I have published work-arounds for letting you "get by" with internally regulated alternators . . . I DON'T RECOMMEND THEM. When we design new systems for aircraft, I really lean on my compatriots to reduce if not eliminate relays in the system. Relays, especially those that carry heavy current -AND- get vibrated are some of the poorest performance devices in the airplane. This is why our latest and greatest Mach 2.5 GPS guided target has NO RELAYS in the power distribution system. I'd really like to see the automotive alternators get modified to use external regulation. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Nippon Denso alternator
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Bob Japundza" <Bob.Japundza(at)realmed.com>
Bob, Could you better describe the failure modes of internally regulated alternators with built-in ov protection? To be honest, I'm not convinced that external regulators with OV protection are more reliable than alternators with built-in ones. Runaway voltages seem to be a very rare thing in the newer-generation of alternators. My ND alternator from Niagara came with a schematic of the internal regulator, but I couldn't make sense of it since the writing was in Japanese. Bob Japundza RV-6 N244BJ O-360 C/S flying > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick [mailto:turboflyer(at)mediaone.net] > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 11:18 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Nippon Denso alternator > > > > > Bob, I'm kind of between a rock and a hard spot. I can move > the relay to the > firewall, not a biggie, but I thought the relay is what was > required for an > over voltage protection. At least that's what I thought i > understood. Just > removing power to the alternator field doesn't always assure > the alt will > shut down. What can i do with this ND alt to make it external > regulated with > OV protection. And thanks for taking the time to answer all > our questions. > Rick > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On > Behalf Of Robert > L. Nuckolls, III > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Nippon Denso alternator > > > > > > >Say I was sure hoping someone knew what could cause the > voltage regulator > to > >go out on the ND internal regulated alternator. Repair shop > said I may have > >shorted out the alternator light circuit which in turn can cause the > >regulator to fail. I did mount my relay using one of the > existing three > >bolts that appear to run through the back of the alt but they are not > >connected to anything I am aware of. I used a smaller > lighter high amp > relay > >instead of the big contactor. Any thoughts would be most welcome. > > Use of an automotive alternator with built in regulator > has some risk associated with it. There ARE failure modes > within the regulators that may precipitate uncontrollable > voltage run-away. By-in-large, the warning light driver > built into these products are not terribly useful . . . the > ONLY all inclusive warning system for monitoring alternator > performance should be a low voltage sensing system that lights > up for bus voltage below 13.0 volts. Ignore the built in > lamp circuit. > > I presume the "relay" you cited is for the external ov protection. > If I interpret your words correctly, you have mounted a > relay right on the back of the alternator. > > This is not recommended. This subjects the relay to much higher > vibration levels from the engine than it would experience if > mounted on the firewall. > > I gotta be honest with you folks . . . I have published > work-arounds for letting you "get by" with internally > regulated alternators . . . I DON'T RECOMMEND THEM. > When we design new systems for aircraft, I really lean > on my compatriots to reduce if not eliminate relays in > the system. Relays, especially those that carry heavy > current -AND- get vibrated are some of the poorest > performance devices in the airplane. This is why our latest > and greatest Mach 2.5 GPS guided target has NO RELAYS > in the power distribution system. > > I'd really like to see the automotive alternators get > modified to use external regulation. > > > Bob . . . > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================= > > > > > ============ > [##---------------------------6.0%-----------------------------] > =========== > =========== > =========== http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list = ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org>
Subject: Re: Revision 10 is at printer . . .
>If you have an Revision 9 book and would like to update >it from a website download, click on the three links >below: > > >http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/cover.pdf >http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/ch1.pdf >http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf > > >The last two links are large . . . about 1.1 megabytes >each . . . so expect it to take a bit of time. Just wanted to provide some feedback that I downloaded, printed, and updated my Rev 9 to Rev 10 without a hitch. Thanks Bob, for making it so easy. Gary Liming ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: BNC connectors
Date: Nov 09, 2001
Cheers, The following from 'lectric Bob's reply about a test antenna - not a complaint but an observation:. Cut a 47" piece of wire (22-14AWG . . . not critical) in half and solder one of the pieces to the center conductor and the other to the shield of about 15' of RG-58 >>>Put a BNC connector on the other end<<< that the last sentence should evoke great care in adding the connector. There are specific instructions as to how to attach. ....and I will agree that a slapdash job may work. But most of the time, it will only add to the confusion as stray filaments, inaccurate soldering/crimping and other details will undo the test. "Put a BNC connector" with considerable care........... Happy motoring Ferg. Europa A064 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Nippon Denso alternator and "Reliability"
>Bob, > >Could you better describe the failure modes of internally regulated >alternators with built-in ov protection? To be honest, I'm not >convinced that external regulators with OV protection are more reliable >than alternators with built-in ones. Runaway voltages seem to be a very >rare thing in the newer-generation of alternators. > >My ND alternator from Niagara came with a schematic of the internal >regulator, but I couldn't make sense of it since the writing was in >Japanese. > >Bob Japundza >RV-6 N244BJ O-360 C/S flying Sure . . . the first alternators with built in regulators used a lot of surface mount parts on ceramic substrates instead of fiberglas etched circuit boards. They were fabricated mostly of discrete components. Since they were mounted INSIDE a device that runs hot and gets the brunt of temperature/ vibration cycles, the little critters had to be tough . . . and they were. Nowadays, most of the smarts of a voltage regulator for automotive alternators is contained in specialized integrated circuits which have driven costs down and performance up. I suspect the modern built-in regulator comes off the end of an automated assembly line for under $1.00 in production costs. When I look at these products with the jaundiced view of an airplane systems designer I have to dissect the circuitry in an ancient ritual that asks, "(1) how does each part in this product fail. (2) how will it's failure manifest itself to the pilot? (3) what are the consequences of failure with respect to (a) propagation to other systems and (b) stresses against comfortable termination of flight. (4) is the failure pre-flight detectable? (5) do the potential failure modes warrant external warning/protective systems?" Note that none of these questions concern themselves in the least with "reliability". It matters not whether we expect this device to need replacement every few hundred hours or believe it will run the lifetime of the airplane. IF there are any failure modes that can ruin your day, the responsible designer works to eliminate or at least contain the event in a manner that is no more than an inconvenience to the pilot. There have been many alternators handed to me wherein the proud owner points to the advertising literature hawking a statement like "Built-in Over Voltage Proection." Okay, how do I KNOW that the statement is true? Only if the manufacturer supplies me with a schematic of the internal workings of his product can I deduce for myself that an endorsement of the product's claims are warranted. The other fly in the ointment is that alternators taken off of salvage yard vehicles may have been REPAIRED with aftermarket regulators. So even if the literature for the product makes true statements about factory-new, how do we assure ourselves that it is STILL compliant? I've written several manufacturers asking analysis needed to recommend their products. Most have declined to share "proprietary information", others who did supply diagrams did not pass muster as having adequate built in protection. One regulator that was pretty good would only work with a narrow range of alternators that were out of production. Here's where the FAA's demonstrably pedantic notions of conformity make real sense. Since the FAA is paid to worry about everything, one can get pasted for changing the paint on one's certified product without getting prior approval. My concern for conformity is predictability of the system in worst case situations. I'm more concerned with flight system reliability . . . consistently flying from point A to point B without breaking a sweat. Without having intimate knowledge of the inner workings, present condition and past history of any given part, I MUST assume worst case in my goal to keep the pilot's armpits dry. Just because it's a more reliable part and very seldom fails doesn't mean it NEVER fails. Uncontrolled runaway in a modern fire-breathing alternator is not a thing we want to deal I have seriously considered a design for a Super-Crowbar OV protection that might be expected to work directly against the output of a runaway alternator and open the b-lead fuse. This would produce a lighter, simpler and probably less expensive ov protection system. Certainly more reliable since the protection system is NOT in series with any high current flow out of the alternator. I'd have to do quite a bit of testing. Further, there would be a REQUIREMENT current to open the b-lead fuse would come from the battery. This means that as a designer, I have to trade off system features with my present impressions of owner habits. A doctor's biggest single problem with patients is getting them to properly consume medications for maximized results in the healing process. I'm reluctant to bring a new concept to market that REQUIRES an owner to do certain preventative maintenance things to maintain integrity of response to a system failure. A builder called me a few weeks ago and we discussed a problem he was having that ultimately turned out to be a low capacity battery. It was a nice RG battery that worked well when he put it in . . . almost 3 years ago. I had to get a little stern with him. He has the book. He's a regular on this list server. So, there's a not-so-short rational for why I make those recommendations. Until there's an regulator that CANNOT fail and I understand the technology that makes it so, I'll continue to preach the gospel of OV protection whether the alternator is internally or externally regulated. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nicholas Knobil" <nknobil(at)gwi.net>
Subject: Battery Charging Current Limits
Date: Nov 07, 2001
I'm installing a small auxiliary battery to power one of the electronic ignitions (and e-bus) if my main battery ant alternator decide to retire in flight. I'm considering a B&C (or Panasonic) 12v/7AH battery, but both batteries are described as having a charing current limit of 3 amps. Does this mean that I somehow need to reduce the charging current from the bus in order to keep the battery from harm? If so, how do I do that? Thanks, Nick Knobil RV8 N80549 Bowdoinham, Maine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Nippon Denso alternator
> >Bob, I'm kind of between a rock and a hard spot. I can move the relay to the >firewall, not a biggie, but I thought the relay is what was required for an >over voltage protection. At least that's what I thought i understood. Just >removing power to the alternator field doesn't always assure the alt will >shut down. What can i do with this ND alt to make it external regulated with >OV protection. And thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions. >Rick Yes, the relay in series with the b-lead of an internally regulated alternator is needed. Words you used to describe the relay you selected brought to mind one of the "heavy duty" plastic relays with fat fast-on tabs. I'm not sure I'd want to put that kind of device in series with my alternator in spite of the fact that they're available with ratings of 50-70 Amps . . . Fast-ons are just not good for that kind of continuous current flow. Further, the relatively light mechanism in this kind of relay puts it at the bottom of my list for this application. The mechanically more robust continuous duty contactor is lightly loaded in this application and more reliable. Further, if it burns up inside, the metal can will contain all the products of combustion. The plastic relays will readily let their fire breathing genies out of the bottle. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Revision 10 Free Update
> > >Just wanted to provide some feedback that I downloaded, printed, and >updated my Rev 9 to Rev 10 without a hitch. Thanks Bob, for making it so easy. > >Gary Liming Thanks for the feedback. I'm pleased to hear that it worked well. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: re: Battery Charging Current Limits
> > >I'm installing a small auxiliary battery to power one of the electronic >ignitions (and e-bus) if my main battery ant alternator decide to retire in >flight. > >I'm considering a B&C (or Panasonic) 12v/7AH battery, but both batteries are >described as having a charing current limit of 3 amps. Does this mean that >I somehow need to reduce the charging current from the bus in order to keep >the battery from harm? If so, how do I do that? Ignore that rating. The REAL world of batteries won't be terribly harsh on the little battery unless you run it completely flat and then charge it from the bus with a running alternator. The E-bus should run from the LARGEST of the two batteries. Little aux batteries should be dedicated to the task that forced their addition to the system i.e. second electronic ignition. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: BNC connectors
> > Cut a 47" piece of wire (22-14AWG . . . not critical) > in half and solder one of the pieces to the center conductor > and the other to the shield of about 15' of RG-58 >>>>Put a BNC connector on the other end<<< > >that the last sentence should evoke great care in adding the connector. >There are specific instructions as to how to attach. ....and I will agree >that a slapdash job may work. But most of the time, it will only add to the >confusion as stray filaments, inaccurate soldering/crimping and other >details will undo the test. "Put a BNC connector" with considerable >care........... it might take a little practice but it's not difficult. See: http://209.134.106.21/articles/bnccrimp.pdf I need to reshoot that series using RG-400 and perhaps put in an extra trimming step to cut back the braid before sliding the ferrule up instead of after the ferrule is crimped. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob A" <racker(at)rmci.net>
Subject: Essential Bus - Fuse vs. Fuselink
Date: Nov 08, 2001
Bob thank you for the new Appendix Z drawings! Excellent work and appreciated. My own aircraft is now being wired based on rev. 9 and does not have a battery bus, resulting in my installing three always hot inline fuse holders which I do not like (bulky and inconvenient to mount). I will now be retiring those and adding a battery bus per your new diagrams. One thing I may have missed somewhere in the text. Is there a specific reason the essential bus is now protected by a fuse vs. fuselink? I ask since I will be adding the battery bus and already have my essential bus wired up with a fuselink. Its just as easy for me move the essential bus to the new fuseblock or leave it protected with the fuselink. Thanks, Rob Acker (RV-6). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Problems with my E-mail handler
I notice that whole lines get zapped out of my postings to the list server . . . I check my outgoing mailbox and the message is intact but what comes back to me via the list server gets selectively whacked . . . one or sometimes two lines at a time. I've written my ISP about it. Maybe outgoing mail is a feature I need to spool up on my experimental server . . . Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: dual battery circuit
>Bob, > >Maybe is it my poor use of English, or the awkward performance claim I made, >but I'm a bit taken aback by the responses I got to my messages. >Somehow I have the feeling the subject of my first email has been unnoticed. Giles, Don't worry about it. Some folks cut a pretty wide swath in their responses, especially if the original message is not adequately understood. My own responses have often been mis-labeled as overbearing with a tad bit of mud-slinging thrown in. I don't think anyone on the list wants to come off as unfriendly or unsympathetic to another builder's queries or problems. We're all interested in building the best airplanes to have ever flown and we're pleased that you have considered joining us on the AeroElectric List. >I was stating our projected engine is a rotax 914 with permanent magnet >alternator, and electrically driven primary AND backup fuel pumps. The fuel >tanks beeing in the (low) wings, in case of electrical failure of a >"classic" circuit the engine may quit within seconds. Okay . . . >I already own your book, and regularly download information from your >website. Last year you sent me a crimp plier, and we exchanged some >messages. >As you can imagine I'm trying to convey to the French homebuilding >community what I'm learning from your articles or on the list. >But it is difficult to just tell my building partners "check that website", >remember many French technicians do not read easily English texts. Understand. >Judging from the informations I gleaned on the list and in your book I >thought a dual battery circuit was the way to go. But what capacity for the >main and backup battery ? What is the minimum to comfortably crank a Rotax ? >Is a diode permitting the charging of the backup, but no discharging a good >idea ? I don't think you need to be that complicated. There are very small batteries that will crank the Rotax. You can consider batteries as small as 10 ampere-hours in capacity and about 4 kg in weight. You'll want to size the battery based on endurance with the alternator inoperative. >As you have stated on this list, the backup battery should outlast the fuel >endurance. Or is 2 hours a reasonnable time ?(160 litres @ 20 litres/hour >cruise might be long) Since the electric fuel pump is a backup device, you don't need to consider it as a full-time load in calculating your battery-only endurance. For example, if the alternator quits, our goal is to keep this single failure from becoming an emergency. This is accomplished normal running loads for equipment needed in the en route phase of flight. This is generally 3 amperes or less. If you have 8 hours of endurance, do you expect to use this aircraft in a situation where anything like 6-7 hour flights might be undertaken? Would it be over unfriendly territory with respect to landing fields where tools and parts for repairs might be available? My goal would be to size your alternator-out capability so that you have at least 3-4 hours of endurance . . . if you plan to use the airplane over water or desolate terrain, you might want to raise that goal. It sounds as if a 17 a.h. battery would be the minimum . . . and perhaps as large as 24 a.h. Have you done a useful load study to see how much the various battery sizes might affect the usefulness of your airplane? I'm aware of some successful adaptations of 40 amp Nipon-Dienso alternators to the back of the Rotax. Perhaps your needs would be better served by having dual alternators and a much smaller battery. The weight might go down and the reliability would be MUCH better. >And how do we arrange the essential bus ? The E-bus just gets some lighting, primary nav, transponder, turn-coordinator and volmeter . . . the standby fuel pump should run from an always hot battery bus. Let's talk about this some more and see what makes the best sense. >Any comment or advice from your part will be greatly appreciated. Pleased to participate. >As for the performances of our project, well I bitterly regret I have stated >them. Nevertheless, this type of aircraft should now be known in your >country. This summer a Spanish airline pilot made a stop at Oshkosh during a >round-the-world flight in an MCR, en route to Spain via Iceland. He was >welcomed by Tom Poberzny. He is seemingly the first ever Spanish to complete >such a flight (224 km/h/120 kt average speed). Sounds like a really efficient design. I would be interested in knowing more about it. Are there any sites on the Internet where we can learn more? I'm posting this to the list also and I'll entreat my associates there to calm down a little bit lest our enthusiasm for the art and science of building airplanes be mistaken for zealous fanaticism. You won't find a group of folks more interested in seeing a successful completion of your project. The airplane you describe is most intriguing! >Looking forward to hearing from you, My pleasure my friend. Let's do a good job on this one! Let's continue this discussion on the list so that we might all benefit from new information you are bringing to our attention. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Loram <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: Nippon Denso alternator and "Reliability"
Date: Nov 08, 2001
Damn!, Bob. How do you ever get any work done? (Or is this just an intelligent auto-reply??) ;-) -john- .... >Could you better describe the failure modes ..... >Bob Japundza >RV-6 N244BJ O-360 C/S flying Sure . . . the first alternators with built in regulators used a lot of surface mount parts on ceramic substrates instead of fiberglas etched circuit boards. They were fabricated mostly of discrete components. Since they were mounted INSIDE a device that runs hot and gets the brunt of temperature/ vibration cycles, the little critters had to be tough . . . and they were. Nowadays, most of the smarts of a voltage regulator for automotive alternators is contained in specialized integrated circuits which have driven costs down and performance up. I suspect the modern built-in regulator comes off the end of an automated assembly line for under $1.00 in production costs. When I look at these products with the jaundiced view of an airplane systems designer I have to dissect the circuitry in an ancient ritual that asks, "(1) how does each part in this product fail. (2) how will it's failure manifest itself to the pilot? (3) what are the consequences of failure with respect to (a) propagation to other systems and (b) stresses against comfortable termination of flight. (4) is the failure pre-flight detectable? (5) do the potential failure modes warrant external warning/protective systems?" Note that none of these questions concern themselves in the least with "reliability". It matters not whether we expect this device to need replacement every few hundred hours or believe it will run the lifetime of the airplane. IF there are any failure modes that can ruin your day, the responsible designer works to eliminate or at least contain the event in a manner that is no more than an inconvenience to the pilot. There have been many alternators handed to me wherein the proud owner points to the advertising literature hawking a statement like "Built-in Over Voltage Proection." Okay, how do I KNOW that the statement is true? Only if the manufacturer supplies me with a schematic of the internal workings of his product can I deduce for myself that an endorsement of the product's claims are warranted. The other fly in the ointment is that alternators taken off of salvage yard vehicles may have been REPAIRED with aftermarket regulators. So even if the literature for the product makes true statements about factory-new, how do we assure ourselves that it is STILL compliant? I've written several manufacturers asking analysis needed to recommend their products. Most have declined to share "proprietary information", others who did supply diagrams did not pass muster as having adequate built in protection. One regulator that was pretty good would only work with a narrow range of alternators that were out of production. Here's where the FAA's demonstrably pedantic notions of conformity make real sense. Since the FAA is paid to worry about everything, one can get pasted for changing the paint on one's certified product without getting prior approval. My concern for conformity is predictability of the system in worst case situations. I'm more concerned with flight system reliability . . . consistently flying from point A to point B without breaking a sweat. Without having intimate knowledge of the inner workings, present condition and past history of any given part, I MUST assume worst case in my goal to keep the pilot's armpits dry. Just because it's a more reliable part and very seldom fails doesn't mean it NEVER fails. Uncontrolled runaway in a modern fire-breathing alternator is not a thing we want to deal I have seriously considered a design for a Super-Crowbar OV protection that might be expected to work directly against the output of a runaway alternator and open the b-lead fuse. This would produce a lighter, simpler and probably less expensive ov protection system. Certainly more reliable since the protection system is NOT in series with any high current flow out of the alternator. I'd have to do quite a bit of testing. Further, there would be a REQUIREMENT current to open the b-lead fuse would come from the battery. This means that as a designer, I have to trade off system features with my present impressions of owner habits. A doctor's biggest single problem with patients is getting them to properly consume medications for maximized results in the healing process. I'm reluctant to bring a new concept to market that REQUIRES an owner to do certain preventative maintenance things to maintain integrity of response to a system failure. A builder called me a few weeks ago and we discussed a problem he was having that ultimately turned out to be a low capacity battery. It was a nice RG battery that worked well when he put it in . . . almost 3 years ago. I had to get a little stern with him. He has the book. He's a regular on this list server. So, there's a not-so-short rational for why I make those recommendations. Until there's an regulator that CANNOT fail and I understand the technology that makes it so, I'll continue to preach the gospel of OV protection whether the alternator is internally or externally regulated. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nicholas Knobil" <nknobil(at)gwi.net>
Subject: re: Battery Charging Current Limits
Date: Nov 08, 2001
Thanks Bob! >> The E-bus should run from the LARGEST of the two batteries. Little aux batteries should be dedicated to the task that forced their addition to the system i.e. second electronic ignition. << I was thinking of installing the aux. battery into the e-bus alternate feed circuit, so in the even that the alternator went off-line, I would have both the main and aux batteries to power the e-bus. In the event that the main battery went west (south?) also, I could either run the e-bus from the small battery alone, or turn off the e-bus as well, and power my remaining electronic ignition from the aux. battery bus. Is there any logic to my thinking? Nick -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: Battery Charging Current Limits > > >I'm installing a small auxiliary battery to power one of the electronic >ignitions (and e-bus) if my main battery ant alternator decide to retire in >flight. > >I'm considering a B&C (or Panasonic) 12v/7AH battery, but both batteries are >described as having a charing current limit of 3 amps. Does this mean that >I somehow need to reduce the charging current from the bus in order to keep >the battery from harm? If so, how do I do that? Ignore that rating. The REAL world of batteries won't be terribly harsh on the little battery unless you run it completely flat and then charge it from the bus with a running alternator. The E-bus should run from the LARGEST of the two batteries. Little aux batteries should be dedicated to the task that forced their addition to the system i.e. second electronic ignition. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Figure Z-27
Date: Nov 08, 2001
Bob, First, thanks for the Rev 10 update. I kept waiting for the screen that would ask me to type in my credit card info...it never came. Thanks!!! Now the question. Figure Z-27 depicts your "favorite" way to wire one electronic ignition and one mag with toggle switches. I have been planning on wiring these two separately so that I can start the engine on either system. I would use the electronic ignition as my "primary" starter system and the left, impulse coupled mag as the "backup". I have been assuming that one should not start the engine using both systems. Is this why you choose to isolate the left mag for starting purposes so the electronic ignition has to be off in order to start? Other than the possibility of having both systems on at start, is there any other reason why I should not wire them completely independent? Ross Mickey All Electric RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: What Listers Are Saying - Fund Raiser Continues...
Dear Listers, The 2001 List Fund Raiser is going well and I want to thank everyone that has already so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists! Below are some of the great comments and feedback members have been including along with their Contributions. Won't you make a Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of your Lists? Its fast and easy using the SSL Secure Web Site or by simply sending a personal check. Complete information can be found at Contribution web site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution A give a special Thank You to all of those that have already contributed so far this year!! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ================== What Listers Are Saying ==================== Great information site. - Edward S. This is the first thing I look at every day. - Ralph M. The new List option is WONDERFUL! - Kenyon B. ...new Search Software is absolutely fantastic!! - Bruce K. ...essential to my enjoyment of RV building and flying. - Douglas W. Great List! - Randall H. ...an invaluable service! - Carlos S. ...incredible service to the industry! - Alex M. Building wouldn't be the same without the "Great List". - Tom E. ...has helped the building process immensely. - Hap S. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Figure Z-27
> >Bob, > >First, thanks for the Rev 10 update. I kept waiting for the screen that >would ask me to type in my credit card info...it never came. Thanks!!! > >Now the question. > >Figure Z-27 depicts your "favorite" way to wire one electronic ignition and >one mag with toggle switches. I have been planning on wiring these two >separately so that I can start the engine on either system. I would use the >electronic ignition as my "primary" starter system and the left, impulse >coupled mag as the "backup". I have been assuming that one should not start >the engine using both systems. Is this why you choose to isolate the left >mag for starting purposes so the electronic ignition has to be off in order >to start? Other than the possibility of having both systems on at start, is >there any other reason why I should not wire them completely independent? IF your electronic ignition can be used during cranking (some cannot) and your mag has an impulse coupler, then there is no need to lock the starter out for any combination of ignition switch positions. If the systems are capable of starting the engine by itself then they can be run in combination during cranking. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 08, 2001
From: jayeandscott <jayeandscott(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Figure Z-27
Geez, I don't like the sound of that. What if the magneto began misfiring for whatever reason in flight? With what you're advocating, Bob, I don't see a way of turning off the one ignition system. Will either system fail only passively? What if one harness began crossfiring? I think this may be a time when the old-fashioned way of a control for each ignition system may just be the best idea. Sure I haven't made your day... Scott in Vancouver ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Figure Z-27 > > > > >Bob, > > > >First, thanks for the Rev 10 update. I kept waiting for the screen that > >would ask me to type in my credit card info...it never came. Thanks!!! > > > >Now the question. > > > >Figure Z-27 depicts your "favorite" way to wire one electronic ignition and > >one mag with toggle switches. I have been planning on wiring these two > >separately so that I can start the engine on either system. I would use the > >electronic ignition as my "primary" starter system and the left, impulse > >coupled mag as the "backup". I have been assuming that one should not start > >the engine using both systems. Is this why you choose to isolate the left > >mag for starting purposes so the electronic ignition has to be off in order > >to start? Other than the possibility of having both systems on at start, is > >there any other reason why I should not wire them completely independent? > > > IF your electronic ignition can be used during cranking > (some cannot) and your mag has an impulse coupler, then > there is no need to lock the starter out for any combination > of ignition switch positions. If the systems are capable > of starting the engine by itself then they can be run in > combination during cranking. > > > Bob . . . > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================= > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Figure Z-27
> >Geez, I don't like the sound of that. What if the magneto began misfiring >for whatever reason in flight? With what you're advocating, Bob, I don't see >a way of turning off the one ignition system. Will either system fail only >passively? What if one harness began crossfiring? I think this may be a time >when the old-fashioned way of a control for each ignition system may just be >the best idea. I'm lost . . . I think his question had to do with starter lockout circuits recommended for ignition systems that should NOT be on while cranking. This covers non-impulse coupled magnetos and SOME electronic ignitions where trigger pulse is un reliable at low speeds or where the ignition doesn't retard far enough to be useful for cranking. IF any one system should be off while cranking, then route the starter control power through contacts of that switch which are closed while the system is OFF. IF, in some cases, either or both systems can be used for cranking, then there is no concern about starter lockout and the ignition can be wired as shown in Figure Z-28 . . . which shows independent control of both ignition systems AND starter. Figure Z-27 shows how the starter is interlocked through the ignition switches when it's wise NOT to energize the starter with both systems on. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Essential Bus - Fuse vs. Fuselink
> >Bob thank you for the new Appendix Z drawings! Excellent work and >appreciated. > >My own aircraft is now being wired based on rev. 9 and does not have a >battery bus, resulting in my installing three always hot inline fuse holders >which I do not like (bulky and inconvenient to mount). I will now be >retiring those and adding a battery bus per your new diagrams. > >One thing I may have missed somewhere in the text. Is there a specific >reason the essential bus is now protected by a fuse vs. fuselink? I ask >since I will be adding the battery bus and already have my essential bus >wired up with a fuselink. Its just as easy for me move the essential bus to >the new fuseblock or leave it protected with the fuselink. If you have a battery bus, then there are fuses available for the e-bus alternate feed. Many folk are wiring their aircraft wherein the only hot feed from the battery is an e-bus alternate feed . . . I prefer the fusible link to an inline fuseholder for simplicity and ruggedness . . . if you're going to have a fuseblock, then the fusible link can be replaced with an existing fuse in the battery bus fuseblock. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Figure Z-27
Date: Nov 09, 2001
> IF your electronic ignition can be used during cranking > (some cannot) and your mag has an impulse coupler, then > there is no need to lock the starter out for any combination > of ignition switch positions. If the systems are capable > of starting the engine by itself then they can be run in > combination during cranking. > > > Bob . . . Thanks, Bob. I have the Lightspeed EI that is capable of starting. I haven't spoken with Klaus or anyone else to see if starting with both the EI and impulse coupled mag is recommended or discouraged. I was just thinking that the two systems will more than likely be timed differently at start. This may or may not be a problem...I just don't know enough about it. My safe solution was to have independent switches and a checklist that keeps the mag off line until after startup. Thanks again, Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2001
From: Kevin Kinney <kkinney(at)fuse.net>
Subject: Servo Connector Heatshrink
I've used the servo connector advice on the Aeroelectric site. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html I've made & tested the connections and am ready to close the assembly. However none of the local suppliers carry heatshrink big enough for the D-submin connectors. I'm not familiar with heatshrink (yet) and will have to order some. What size should I get? Can you recommend a supplier? Regards, Kevin Kinney ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: dual battery circuit
Date: Nov 09, 2001
Bob, Thank you for your nice response. > > I don't think you need to be that complicated. There are very > small batteries that will crank the Rotax. You can consider batteries > as small as 10 ampere-hours in capacity and about 4 kg in weight. This is good news to us. > Since the electric fuel pump is a backup device, you don't need to > consider it as a full-time load in calculating your battery-only > endurance. For example, if the alternator quits, our goal is to > keep this single failure from becoming an emergency. The problem is, for reasons yet to be discovered by us, the 914 has NO mechanical pump. Or so I was told, since our engine has not been ordered yet. So the engine needs electrical power to run. > > My goal would be to size your alternator-out capability so that > you have at least 3-4 hours of endurance . . . > 3-4 hours seems quite reasonable. > Have you done a useful load study to see how much the various > battery sizes might affect the usefulness of your airplane? Not yet, but I'll get the power consumption of the fuel pump and the turbo control box from the factory. > I'm aware of some successful adaptations of 40 amp Nipon-Dienso > alternators to the back of the Rotax. Such a modification may seem too drastic a change. We'll think it over. > Sounds like a really efficient design. I would be interested > in knowing more about it. Are there any sites on the Internet > where we can learn more? ...... You won't find > a group of folks more interested in seeing a successful completion > of your project. The airplane you describe is most intriguing! check those links : http://www.dynaero.com/ The official site. Mainly in French. Necessitates 1024*768 display resolution. http://www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown/pages/mcr1.htm An English site, packed with information. http://www.dynaerodoess.de/deutsch/startseite.htm The German dealer's site. German only. I'd like to declare I don't get any royalties from Dyn Aero ;-) We are just satisfied customers. The factory support is great : heated hangar with compressed air 7/7, H 24. > My pleasure my friend. Let's do a good job on this one! > Let's continue this discussion on the list so that we might > all benefit from new information you are bringing to > our attention. Thanks again, Cheers, Gilles Thesee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nicholas Knobil" <nknobil(at)gwi.net>
Subject: re: Battery Charging Current Limits
Date: Nov 09, 2001
Thanks Bob! >> The E-bus should run from the LARGEST of the two batteries. Little aux batteries should be dedicated to the task that forced their addition to the system i.e. second electronic ignition. << I was thinking of installing the aux. battery into the e-bus alternate feed circuit, so in the even that the alternator went off-line, I would have both the main and aux batteries to power the e-bus. In the event that the main battery went west (south?) also, I could either run the e-bus from the small battery alone, or turn off the e-bus as well, and power my remaining electronic ignition from the aux. battery bus. Is there any logic to my thinking? Nick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Revision 10 is at printer . . .
> >likewise - thankyou Bob! > >May I suggest that we forward the current price of the update - as the > downloaders have received the intelectual property in perhaps a more > convienent format. Anyone inclined to forward compensation for extra ordinary value they perceive from participating on this list or having access to resources advertised thereon, send it to Matt Dralle. This is Matt's once a year donation drive. Matt has a huge investment in equipment and TIME to learn all of the idiosyncrasies of keeping it running smooth. I've had enough struggles keeping my little operation running . . . the number of bytes that circulate through Matt's system must be several orders of magnitude higher. I'm well rewarded for my efforts through a variety of conduits one of which is watching your projects grow into a fleet of the finest light aircraft to have ever flown. I could not accomplish what I have without the team efforts of lots of folk who willingly offer their own expertise to the party. I'd like for us to concentrate on contributions to Matt's service during this seldom-requested fund raising drive. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Figure Z-27
> >> IF your electronic ignition can be used during cranking >> (some cannot) and your mag has an impulse coupler, then >> there is no need to lock the starter out for any combination >> of ignition switch positions. If the systems are capable >> of starting the engine by itself then they can be run in >> combination during cranking. >> >> >> Bob . . . > >Thanks, Bob. I have the Lightspeed EI that is capable of starting. I >haven't spoken with Klaus or anyone else to see if starting with both the EI >and impulse coupled mag is recommended or discouraged. I was just thinking >that the two systems will more than likely be timed differently at start. Don't know why this would be a problem . . . ANY spark that lights ANY fire in ANY cylinder is a good thing while cranking. You just need to make sure that ALL sparks happen at some point in the engine rotation that is conducive to engine starting. The magneto doesn't know the electronic ignition is there and vis-versa. >This may or may not be a problem...I just don't know enough about it. My >safe solution was to have independent switches and a checklist that keeps >the mag off line until after startup. If your mag has an impulse coupler, you can run it too . . . although honestly, it's sort of like standing next to a searchlight trying to outshine it with a flashlight. Bob . . . Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Hanson" <kmhanson3(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Revision 10 is at printer . . .
Date: Nov 10, 2001
Your a class act, my friend. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Revision 10 is at printer . . . > >likewise - thankyou Bob! > >May I suggest that we forward the current price of the update - as the > downloaders have received the intelectual property in perhaps a more > convienent format. Anyone inclined to forward compensation for extra ordinary value they perceive from participating on this list or having access to resources advertised thereon, send it to Matt Dralle. This is Matt's once a year donation drive. Matt has a huge investment in equipment and TIME to learn all of the idiosyncrasies of keeping it running smooth. I've had enough struggles keeping my little operation running . . . the number of bytes that circulate through Matt's system must be several orders of magnitude higher. I'm well rewarded for my efforts through a variety of conduits one of which is watching your projects grow into a fleet of the finest light aircraft to have ever flown. I could not accomplish what I have without the team efforts of lots of folk who willingly offer their own expertise to the party. I'd like for us to concentrate on contributions to Matt's service during this seldom-requested fund raising drive. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Battery Charging Current Limits
> > >Thanks Bob! > >>> The E-bus should run from the LARGEST of the two batteries. > Little aux batteries should be dedicated to the task that > forced their addition to the system i.e. second electronic > ignition. << > >I was thinking of installing the aux. battery into the e-bus alternate feed >circuit, so in the even that the alternator went off-line, I would have both >the main and aux batteries to power the e-bus. In the event that the main >battery went west (south?) also, I could either run the e-bus from the small >battery alone, or turn off the e-bus as well, and power my remaining >electronic ignition from the aux. battery bus. > >Is there any logic to my thinking? Properly maintained RG batteries seldom fail. The phenomenon that most people attribute to failure is actually END OF LIFE for the battery. The battery manufacturing associations consider a battery to be at end of life when its capacity drops to 80% of factory-new. Problem is, how does John Q. Mechanic KNOW when this or any other point is reached? There are no handy capacity gages on the side of the product that compliment a "REPLACE BATTERY" warning light. I've published a number of articles and even suggested some ways that a builder can actively measure battery capacity . . . but then we get into a well known phenomenon that I mentioned in another post earlier this week . . . owner non-compliance with preventative maintenance practices. Soooo . . . this is where I reasoned that instead of doing periodic battery tests, how about just putting at least one if not two new batteries in every annual? Compared to the total cost of owning and operating an airplane, a couple of RG batteries every year wouldn't add much to the cost and it would absolutely guarantee battery performance at crunch time. This is the world of owner built and maintained aircraft . . . we can wire the little buggers up any way we want. Yeah, someone may unload upon you with all the ghosts and demons of our worst uneducated fears but you can still do it any way you want. What I would suggest is that you take a combination of features from the drawings I've published and then propose changes based upon identified failure modes. Post your ideas on the list and let's talk through the failure modes to see if they're fact/fiction and deduce their risks. Keeping the number of switches and components in the system low while maintaining a strong defense against known risks is the goal. The more operational combinations of pilot operated controls you have, the more likely it is that you wont get the results you expect if you're under duress from any form of failure. The Aerostar fuel management system led a lot of folks to unhappy endings . . . not because it didn't work as designed but it had too many things the pilot could do wrong. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Servo Connector Heatshrink
> >I've used the servo connector advice on the Aeroelectric site. >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html > >I've made & tested the connections and am ready to close the assembly. > However none of the local suppliers carry heatshrink big enough for the >D-submin connectors. >I'm not familiar with heatshrink (yet) and will have to order some. > What size should I get? Can you recommend a supplier? 3/4" heatshrink goes over the 9-pin dsub connectors quite nicely. Digikey sells several suitable products in 4 foot lengths. You can also use the silcone rubber tape sold by B&C from our website catalog at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/slikstik/chem.html#s894 //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Nippon Denso alternator and "Reliability"
> >Damn!, Bob. How do you ever get any work done? (Or is this just an >intelligent auto-reply??) > > ;-) > >-john- I do some cut-n-paste from other texts but by-in-large, my posts are hammered out one key at a time. I'm a lot faster typist than I was when I took my first tech writing job at Cessna in 1964! I do spend a goodly amount of time at this . . couldn't do it if it wasn't fun and satisfying. Matt's support of the AeroElectric-List sure helped too . . . I used to participate in about 10-12 individual lists . . . THAT got too big to handle! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dave ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: Essential bus
Date: Nov 10, 2001
Bob, I have dual EI fed with a split battery bus each fed with main battery and backup battery, SD8 alternator for backup battery. My question is tying in the essential bus, I know you recommend using the main battery going through the ess bus switch. Supposing the main alt. failed I would like to have the option of using the SD8 & backup battery also for ess. Would the use of a double throw switch for ess. buss to select either main battery, off, or aux battery be out of line? Dave Ford RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Dimmer Sub D Connectors
Date: Nov 10, 2001
Bob, I give up. I am looking at the female 9 pin sub d that came with your dimmer. The back (where I am supposed to connect the wires) has pins sticking out where the wires go. This is different than the sub d's I have been working with and the ones you show in your picture books. How do I use these with the pins out the back?? Ross Mickey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ronald A. Cox" <racox(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 11/08/01
Date: Nov 10, 2001
>From: jayeandscott <jayeandscott(at)shaw.ca> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Figure Z-27 >Geez, I don't like the sound of that. What if the magneto began misfiring >for whatever reason in flight? With what you're advocating, Bob, I don't see >a way of turning off the one ignition system. Will either system fail only >passively? What if one harness began crossfiring? I think this may be a time >when the old-fashioned way of a control for each ignition system may just be >the best idea. >Sure I haven't made your day... >Scott in Vancouver >Scott: I'm pretty sure Bob's not advocating one switch for energizing both systems. Only that it isn't necessary to disable either one of them during starting if either can start it safely alone. All Bob's drawings I've seen show a separate switch for each. I think he's talking about not needing to configurethe switches to prohibit starting with both... Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: .Whelen wiring questions
Date: Nov 10, 2001
I have the A600-PG/PR wingtip assembly and the HDA,CF power pack. I want to alternate between the left and right strobes. Is this how I wire it? Left strobe in socket 3 or 4 Right strobe in socket 2 Jumper pins 1 and 2 in socket 1 (trigger) What is the proper size wire for the HDA,CF power +,- runs? It is a 12 V system. What is the proper way to wire the forward and tail position lights? Can I use a common ground at the wing tip, tie the two positive leads together at the wing and run one wire to a switch and power supply? What would be the proper size wire for this combination? Ross Mickey RV-6A builder ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2001
From: William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: .Whelen wiring questions
Hi Ross - Yes. The system below will alternately flash left/right. >I have the A600-PG/PR wingtip assembly and the HDA,CF power pack. I want to >alternate between the left and right strobes. Is this how I wire it? > >Left strobe in socket 3 or 4 >Right strobe in socket 2 >Jumper pins 1 and 2 in socket 1 (trigger) Bill Mills ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: .Whelen wiring questions
>What is the proper size wire for the HDA,CF power +,- runs? It is a 12 V >system. You can ground the power supply locally in a metal airplane. The system probably draws and average current of less than 5A but it does have a peak current draw at the end of each flash that would benefit from slightly larger wire. 20AWG is fine. >What is the proper way to wire the forward and tail position lights? Can I >use a common ground at the wing tip, tie the two positive leads together at >the wing and run one wire to a switch and power supply? What would be the >proper size wire for this combination? 20AWG wire throughout fed with 7A fuse/breaker. You can ground each light locally and bring the trio of wires together wherever convenient. I think I'd bring them all three together at a blue (14-16AWG) terminal right at the position lights switch. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dimmer Sub D Connectors - WRONG PART!!!!
> >Bob, > >I give up. I am looking at the female 9 pin sub d that came with your >dimmer. The back (where I am supposed to connect the wires) has pins >sticking out where the wires go. This is different than the sub d's I have >been working with and the ones you show in your picture books. How do I use >these with the pins out the back?? > >Ross Mickey Just yesterday afternoon I was visiting B&C to use their VERY accurate milling machine and heard that someone had ordered the wrong connectors to go out with the dimmer kits. The connector you got was intended for use as a component soldered to an etched circuit board. The normal connector has solder cups for attaching 20-22AWG wires. I can drop the proper connector in the mail to you tomorrow. The fastest thing to do is drop into a local radio shack store and pick up a 276-1538. If you have our crimp tool for machined pin d-subs and would like to go that route, let me know and I'll drop a machined pin connector and set of pins in the mail instead. Your choice. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Problems with my E-mail handler
> >I notice that whole lines get zapped out of my postings >to the list server . . . I check my outgoing mailbox and the >message is intact but what comes back to me via the list >server gets selectively whacked . . . one or sometimes two >lines at a time. I've written my ISP about it. > >Maybe outgoing mail is a feature I need to spool up on >my experimental server . . . Matt dropped me a note about a "bug" in his e-mail filtering that didn't like my leading whitespace indents. He's fixed it to allow up to 8 leading spaces so if I don't get carried away on the space bar, my indented replies shouldn't get snaggle-toothed any more. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2001
From: Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: .Whelen wiring questions
--- Ross wrote: > What is the proper size wire for the HDA,CF power > +,- runs? It is a 12 V > system. > The Whelen wiring kit comes with a shielded three 16AWG conductors cable. Since I had 18AWG conductors cable, I called them and they said it would be OK considering the lenght I needed. They also said to go no smaller than that. ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: dual battery circuit
Date: Nov 10, 2001
> > Sounds like a really efficient design. I would be interested > > in knowing more about it. Are there any sites on the Internet > > where we can learn more? ...... You won't find > > a group of folks more interested in seeing a successful completion > > of your project. The airplane you describe is most intriguing! > > > check those links : > http://www.dynaero.com/ > The official site. Mainly in French. Necessitates 1024*768 display > resolution. > > > http://www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown/pages/mcr1.htm > An English site, packed with information. > > > http://www.dynaerodoess.de/deutsch/startseite.htm > The German dealer's site. German only. > Here's the site of the american dealer : www.aircraftkit.com They seem to have renamed the MCR series as "Lafayette" Cheers, gilles ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Dimmer Sub D Connectors - WRONG PART!!!!
Date: Nov 10, 2001
I have some extra connectors and will use those. I just couldn't figure out what to do. I tried breaking them off and then putting a hot soldering iron on them thinking a cup would emerge. Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dimmer Sub D Connectors - WRONG PART!!!! > > > > >Bob, > > > >I give up. I am looking at the female 9 pin sub d that came with your > >dimmer. The back (where I am supposed to connect the wires) has pins > >sticking out where the wires go. This is different than the sub d's I have > >been working with and the ones you show in your picture books. How do I use > >these with the pins out the back?? > > > >Ross Mickey > > Just yesterday afternoon I was visiting B&C to use > their VERY accurate milling machine and heard that > someone had ordered the wrong connectors to go out > with the dimmer kits. The connector you got was intended > for use as a component soldered to an etched circuit > board. The normal connector has solder cups for attaching > 20-22AWG wires. > > I can drop the proper connector in the mail to you tomorrow. > The fastest thing to do is drop into a local radio shack > store and pick up a 276-1538. > > If you have our crimp tool for machined pin d-subs and > would like to go that route, let me know and I'll drop > a machined pin connector and set of pins in the mail > instead. Your choice. > > Bob . . . > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================= > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gabriel A Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Battery Temperature Sensing
Date: Nov 10, 2001
Bob: I'm considering buying a B&C voltage regulator with the battery temperature sensor option. Could you please answer the following: a.. What are the failure mode effects of the thermocouple circuit? a.. Open T/C b.. Shorted T/C b.. What benefit does the temperature sensing system provide? I'm building an RV6. Thanks Gabe A Ferrer Cell: 561 758 8894 Voice or Fax: 561 622 0960 Email: ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Temperature Sensing
> >Bob: >I'm considering buying a B&C voltage regulator with the battery >temperature sensor option. Could you please answer the following: > a.. What are the failure mode effects of the thermocouple circuit? > a.. Open T/C > b.. Shorted T/C > b.. What benefit does the temperature sensing system provide? >I'm building an RV6. Remote temperature sensing feature was added to the regulator product line at B&C based on the experiences of a couple of owners of high performance airplanes. I think they both had Glasairs. The batteries in these airplanes were behind the seats in unheated spaces. Both airplanes could spend hours at high altitude through a series of multiple hops (they regularly flew the Atlantic). After several fuel stops, pilots noted poor cranking performance in spite of the fact that they had just been on the ground a few minutes after hours of flight with "normal" bus voltage. Problem was cold soaking of the battery to a degree that it was no longer accepting 100% recharge at normal bus voltages. The remote temperature sensor fixed this problem. Probably fewer than 1% of builders can really take advantage of this feature. It's useful only for airplanes who's batteries experience extreme ranges in temperature cycling on a short term basis. For example, if you're operating in very cold (below -10 C) ground and flight ops environment, you can simply twist the potentiometer up to 14.8 to 15.0 volts. When you get back to warmer climes, crank it back down. If your departure and destination temperatures are more comfortable yet you expect to spend HOURS . . . like several fuel tanks worth of fuel) at the rarified air levels -AND- your battery is back in the back with no benefits of cabin or engine warming, THEN you might get some utility from addition of the sensor. Failure modes for the system are benign . . . shorted or open sensors do not result in dramatic shifts of voltage. But unless you expect to traverse temperature extremes with sufficient dwell time to get your battery into an unfavorably cold operating condition, I wouldn't worry about adding the temperature sensor option. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: .Whelen wiring questions
> > >--- Ross wrote: >> What is the proper size wire for the HDA,CF power >> +,- runs? It is a 12 V >> system. >> > >The Whelen wiring kit comes with a shielded three >16AWG conductors cable. Since I had 18AWG conductors >cable, I called them and they said it would be OK >considering the lenght I needed. They also said to go >no smaller than that. OH! you were asking about wiring between the power supply and the strobe heads? That wire is supplied in the kit . . . I wasn't even thinking about it when I crafted my reply. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: The Leading Edge of Airframe Design
> > >> > Sounds like a really efficient design. I would be interested >> > in knowing more about it. Are there any sites on the Internet >> > where we can learn more? ...... You won't find >> > a group of folks more interested in seeing a successful completion >> > of your project. The airplane you describe is most intriguing! >> >> >> check those links : >> >> http://www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown/pages/mcr1.htm >> An English site, packed with information. > >Here's the site of the american dealer : > >www.aircraftkit.com >They seem to have renamed the MCR series as "Lafayette" > >Cheers, > >gilles Gilles, thank you for the links . . . I remember reading about his earlier designs years ago and saw Cri Cri at OSH. I'll encourage our list-readers to take a peek at the links. The 4S boasts a gross/empty weight ratio of nearly 2:1 and still gets C-172 speeds on 75% of the horsepower. We'll all be interested in learning of your experience with these unique aviation products. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: dual battery circuit
Gilles, >> Since the electric fuel pump is a backup device, you don't need to >> consider it as a full-time load in calculating your battery-only >> endurance. For example, if the alternator quits, our goal is to >> keep this single failure from becoming an emergency. > >The problem is, for reasons yet to be discovered by us, the 914 has NO >mechanical pump. Or so I was told, since our engine has not been ordered >yet. So the engine needs electrical power to run. I just checked several website repositories of 912/914 specifications and they all speak of mechanically driven fuel pumps as standard on the engine. Further, the little Fawcet pumps that are routinely used to augment the mechanical pumps are very low in power demand . . . peak current during the pressure pulse is about 3A but the average current draw is quite nominal. >> I'm aware of some successful adaptations of 40 amp Nipon-Dienso >> alternators to the back of the Rotax. > >Such a modification may seem too drastic a change. We'll think it over. . . . and after learning more about your project, I'm not sure you need it. You need to develop a list of all the electrically driven devices that you plan for your finished project. Let's do a load analysis for all anticipated flight conditions and see what's practical and necessary. I think the biggest concern for battery capacity will be driven by how you plan to use the airplane. If you expect to take advantage of the airplane's endurance with overflights of unfriendly terrain, then alternator out operations will require more lead and acid in your battery. If you can get by with 4 hours max endurance battery only in spite of 8 hours range, then the battery of choice would be 17 a.h. and about 7.5 KG. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Essential bus
> >Bob, > >I have dual EI fed with a split battery bus each fed with main battery >and backup battery, SD8 alternator for backup battery. My question is >tying in the essential bus, I know you recommend using the main battery >going through the ess bus switch. Supposing the main alt. failed I >would like to have the option of using the SD8 & backup battery also for >ess. Would the use of a double throw switch for ess. buss to select >either main battery, off, or aux battery be out of line? > >Dave Ford >RV6 If you have an SD-8 and a larger, engine driven alternator, you don't need dual batteries. Adding an extra battery and all the switching to accommodate every conceivable mode of operation puts you a greater risk of failure due to something coming unhooked or breaking. Figure Z-8 (R9) or figure Z-13 (R10) should cover you very nicely. With two engine driven power sources the battery doesn't need to be very big either . . . 17 a.h. would do well, you could consider downsizing to a 12 a.h. to add 5 pounds or so to your useful load. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Oscillating ammeter needle -Alternator-Voltage
reg-Battery? >I had this same problem on a 78 Cheetah. I did the following without any >effect on the oscillating. Note: after each step, I ran the engine to see >if there was any change. > >1. Replaced the Master Switch. >2. Replaced the battery >3. Removed, cleaned and replaced the battery cables (both hot and ground) on >both the battery and the Master-Relay/Ground respectively >4, by-passed the master switch with a jumper wire >5, cleaned the ground straps on the engine mount >6. added an additional ground from the alternator bracket to the alternator >controller >7. cleaned all connections to the alternator controller >8. replaced the alternator controller with another controller from a Tiger >9, shorted out the 50 amp circuit breaker >10. and finally, installed a new, electronic (the low profile type) >Zeftronics alternator controller > >Now, after I installed the new alternator controller, the ammeter was steady >UNTIL I turned on all electronic equipment and really loaded the electrical >system. The needle would still oscillate but only slightly. I personally >don't think I found the problem. I think the new controller is just better >at keeping the current flow steady. >OK, Mr Nuckolls, what's wrong with the charging system? Maybe nothing. How strong is the "oscillation"? Does the wiggle manifest itself in visible flickering of the panel lights at night? I've encountered a number alternator/ regulator combinations that featured wavy ammeter needles wherein the observable instability was not a problem elsewhere in the system. ><< My ammeter needle is oscillating between a nominally high charge rate >followed by zero at a fairly high frequency. It has done this for some time >but at a lower amplitude. There is an indication of overcharging of the >battery with some excessive fluid loss, but not that much. I have checked >the security of the connections at the master switch as discussed in >previous posts and they seem okay, although I did not remove and clean them >because they are hard to get to and I am not as flexible as I used to be. I >did have a possibly poor connection of the field wire at the (Zeftronics) >alternator controller the other week. The alternator would not come online. >I disconnected the field wire and reseated it, then all was normal. Have >since flown about 12 hours with no more field problems but still have the >oscillation. Could anyone suggest the best troubleshooting procedure to >track down the problem once and for all? >> If the lights aren't flickering, there are no noises in the radios attributable to the alternator system and the bus voltage is where it belongs, I wouldn't worry about it. The only thing I noticed that you did not investigate was the alternator itself. Poor brush performance could trigger some instabilities too. Get a generic Ford regulator from an autoparts store . . . circa 1985. Standard VR-166 is one of dozens of suitable parts. Tie S and A terminals together and fit it with an alligator clip on a 12" leadwire. Put another clip lead on the case of the regulator. Add a third lead to the F terminal and put either a clip or fast-on terminal on the end to facilitate connection to your alternator. Disconnect the wire from regulator to alternator and install your test regulator by attaching case lead to alternator frame, F lead to alternator field, and AS lead to alternator b-lead. Fire up the engine and watch the ammeter, voltmeter and listen for noises or effects attributed to the alternator system. If any or all go away when the substitute regulator is in place, then you need to do some more work on the regulator/control system. If the problem is still there, then the alternator needs attention. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Have You Tried the New List Browse Feature??
Hi Listers, I've been getting a LOT of very positive feedback on the new Email List Browsing feature I added to the suite of List services a couple of weeks ago. A number of List members have written to say that they love the new List Browser because they can keep tabs on the latest List messages throughout the day without having to constantly check their email or wait for the Digest issue to come out. The List Browse Function allows you to use your web browser to view the current 7 day's worth of List messages for the give List. The indexes are updated every 30 minutes with any new messages that have been posted. You can sort all of the message indexes by Thread, Subject, Author, or Date and easily track and find current threads. You can check out the New List Browse Feature by going to the following URL and clicking on the List of your choice: http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse Please remember that November is List Fund Raiser month!! The continued operation and upgrade of the Email Lists are _entirely_ supported by YOUR Contributions and support. You'll never see annoying, flashing banner ads, or other forms of commercialism on these Lists. Just people sharing information, data, and stories about your favorite topic, plain (plane?) and simple. If you enjoy the Lists and all of the services here, won't you take moment and make a quick Contribution? It fast and easy using the SSL Secure Web site with your Visa or MasterCard. Or, you can also send a personal check to the address listed below. SSL Secure Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution USMail: Matt Dralle c/o Matronics PO Box 347 Livermore, CA 94551-0347 Don't forget that the "List of Contributors" will be coming out in just a few short weeks! Don't you want to make sure you're name is on it? I would like to wish a special "Thank You" to everyone that has made a Contribution so far this year!! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: The Leading Edge of Airframe Design
Date: Nov 11, 2001
----- Message d'origine ----- De : "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" : Envoy : dimanche 11 novembre 2001 17:56 Objet : AeroElectric-List: Re: The Leading Edge of Airframe Design > >> check those links : > >> > >> http://www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown/pages/mcr1.htm > >> An English site, packed with information. > > > >Here's the site of the american dealer : > > > >www.aircraftkit.com > >They seem to have renamed the MCR series as "Lafayette" > > > > I'll encourage our list-readers to take a peek at the > links. The 4S boasts a gross/empty weight ratio of nearly > 2:1 and still gets C-172 speeds on 75% of the horsepower. > > We'll all be interested in learning of your experience with > these unique aviation products. > > > Bob . . . Bob, The aircraft I flew last week was the #2, built by the factory. We could watch the weighing last July, just before her first flight. The technicians at Dyn Aero are very friendly, and I'm familiar with weight and balance matters. The actual empty weight was 353 kg, not far from the advertised 350 Kg. The equipment includes a Becker moving map display and box, and an EFIS the model of which I can't remember. This EFIS seems nice on the ground, but....in use the horizon didn't erect correctly, the device resets each time you hit the starter button ( well, the ignition key "start" position). On top of that, the screen is unreadable most of the time when the sun shines. The Becker is a little better, but often difficult to see. The map display stays always with North up. I woold prefer a pivoting display according to the heading. ( well this isn't too clear, but I hope you see what I mean ;-) So we'll stay with conventionnal instruments. During the flight, we were 3 on board, two 65/70 kg, one 75/kg. We didn't have much fuel on board, but can't recall the quantity. The performance are impressive, but you must be easy on the throttle. We intend to put a detent or gate on the lever, because during take off, when you pass a certain position, the manifold pressure increases quickly for just a tiny move . Cheers, Gilles. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
Subject: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring
Date: Nov 11, 2001
Listers: I have installed the probes for my Electronics International Rotary Switch that will connect to my Vans CHT & EHT Gauges and find the probe extension wire is way to long. 1) Can I cut these shielded wires to length inside the cabin where they attach to the E.I. Rotary Switch? 2) Where can I find the 8 Male and 8 Female Insulated Nylon Push on connectors I will need to once again plug into the Rotary Switch? These appear to be sort of special but I can't find a number or name on them for size. Hope someone has been there done that on an RV6-A. Tom in Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: The Leading Edge of Airframe Design
> > Bob, > >The aircraft I flew last week was the #2, built by the factory. >We could watch the weighing last July, just before her first flight. The >technicians at Dyn Aero are very friendly, and I'm familiar with weight and >balance matters. The actual empty weight was 353 kg, not far from the >advertised 350 Kg. > >The equipment includes a Becker moving map display and box, and an EFIS the >model of which I can't remember. >This EFIS seems nice on the ground, but....in use the horizon didn't erect >correctly, the device resets each time you hit the starter button ( well, >the ignition key "start" position). On top of that, the screen is unreadable >most of the time when the sun shines. > >The Becker is a little better, but often difficult to see. The map display >stays always with North up. I woold prefer a pivoting display according to >the heading. ( well this isn't too clear, but I hope you see what I mean ;-) >So we'll stay with conventionnal instruments. > >During the flight, we were 3 on board, two 65/70 kg, one 75/kg. >We didn't have much fuel on board, but can't recall the quantity. >The performance are impressive, but you must be easy on the throttle. >We intend to put a detent or gate on the lever, because during take off, >when you pass a certain position, the manifold pressure increases quickly >for just a tiny move . Thanks for your observations on the glass-cockpit products, bright sun viewability is difficult . . . but there are products coming over the horizon that will make this task easier. Map orientation is a pure software issue. Just thinking about it, I lay the charts in my lap "north up" but all the EFIS displays I've observed display the map data in a "track over ground" display. I suppose one could learn to fly either. Perhaps a vernier throttle would be useful for this engine. What kind of rate-of-climb were you getting with this load? Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring
> >Listers: I have installed the probes for my Electronics International >Rotary Switch that will connect to my Vans CHT & EHT Gauges and find the >probe extension wire is way to long. > 1) Can I cut these shielded wires to length inside the cabin >where they attach to the E.I. Rotary Switch? > 2) Where can I find the 8 Male and 8 Female Insulated Nylon >Push on connectors I will need to once again plug into the Rotary >Switch? These appear to be sort of special but I can't find a number or >name on them for size. > Hope someone has been there done that on an RV6-A. > > > Tom in Ohio Tom, do you know what kind of wire they use? Is this thermocouple wire? Are there any websites where I can see the switch and its connnections? I can probably identify the wire and parts you need if you send me the scraps you cut off. I'm sure that you'll be okay with shorter leads if you can re-mate them. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
Subject: Re: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring
Date: Nov 11, 2001
Bob: There is a decent picture of the probe with shielding and wire at www.buy-ei.com/p-100%20detail.htm The wire is shielded (For heat?) and the connectors appear to be just push on male-female. Thanks Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring > > > > >Listers: I have installed the probes for my Electronics International > >Rotary Switch that will connect to my Vans CHT & EHT Gauges and find the > >probe extension wire is way to long. > > 1) Can I cut these shielded wires to length inside the cabin > >where they attach to the E.I. Rotary Switch? > > 2) Where can I find the 8 Male and 8 Female Insulated Nylon > >Push on connectors I will need to once again plug into the Rotary > >Switch? These appear to be sort of special but I can't find a number or > >name on them for size. > > Hope someone has been there done that on an RV6-A. > > > > > > Tom in Ohio > > Tom, do you know what kind of wire they use? Is this > thermocouple wire? Are there any websites where I can > see the switch and its connnections? I can probably identify > the wire and parts you need if you send me the scraps you cut off. > I'm sure that you'll be okay with shorter leads if you can > re-mate them. > > > Bob . . . > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================= > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sam Chambers" <schamber@glasgow-ky.com>
Subject: Re: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring
Date: Nov 11, 2001
Tom, I called Ron Roberts at EI and he sent me some of the connectors. You can cut the wires to any length if memory serves, check in the manual or with Ron. Sam Chambers Long-EZ N775AM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring > > Listers: I have installed the probes for my Electronics International > Rotary Switch that will connect to my Vans CHT & EHT Gauges and find the > probe extension wire is way to long. > 1) Can I cut these shielded wires to length inside the cabin > where they attach to the E.I. Rotary Switch? > 2) Where can I find the 8 Male and 8 Female Insulated Nylon > Push on connectors I will need to once again plug into the Rotary > Switch? These appear to be sort of special but I can't find a number or > name on them for size. > Hope someone has been there done that on an RV6-A. > > > Tom in Ohio > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: .Whelen wiring questions
Date: Nov 11, 2001
> OH! you were asking about wiring between the power > supply and the strobe heads? That wire is supplied > in the kit . . . I wasn't even thinking about it > when I crafted my reply. > > Bob . . . No, Bob, you had it right. I have the wire supplied by Whelen. They didn't supply any wire or instructions for the main power to the unit nor for the runs for the position lights. Those are what I was asking about. Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)corecomm.net>
Subject: Coaxial cable
Date: Nov 11, 2001
Bob, I remember a statement, I believe was yours, that RG400 was not necessary for our applications - and that it was too expensive. Now I'm in the market for coax for radios and antennas and would like to know your present thinking on the subject. I notice that your web site no longer carries RG58. Also, I see that ACS sells RG-58C/U (for non certificated planes) quite a bit cheeper than Van's RG-58C. Can it be said that either one of these are adequate for experimentals or that one is better than the other? And finally, do the same BNC coax connectors fit the cables mentioned? Thanks, Tom Barnes ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Coaxial cable
> >Bob, > I remember a statement, I believe was yours, that RG400 was not >necessary for our applications - and that it was too expensive. Now I'm in >the market for coax for radios and antennas and would like to know your >present thinking on the subject. I notice that your web site no longer >carries RG58. Never did carry it. RG-58 is an obsolete spec for a wire designed in WWII . . . PVC and Polyethylene. We haven't used it in production airplanes in the past 15 years or so. RG-400 is my favorite (stranded center conductor) but RG-142 is equal in performance (solid center conductor). > Also, I see that ACS sells RG-58C/U (for non certificated >planes) quite a bit cheeper than Van's RG-58C. Can it be said that either >one of these are adequate for experimentals or that one is better than the >other? Personally, wouldn't use RG-58 in either new or replacment construction . . . > And finally, do the same BNC coax connectors fit the cables mentioned? Yes they do. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring
> >Bob: There is a decent picture of the probe with shielding and wire at >www.buy-ei.com/p-100%20detail.htm The wire is shielded (For heat?) and the >connectors appear to be just push on male-female. Uggh! Those look like "plastigrip" style automotive fast-ons. I guess they've been using them long enough to have some degree of confidence in them crimped onto theromocouple wire. Not my first choice (or even 4th) but if that's what they recommend, go for it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Gauge calibration
> > >I am using VDO fuel gauge senders and ISSPRO fuel gauges. I have found >that they work, but do not reflect full movement like I would like them to, >i.e., it reads 1/8 when empty, and pegs the meter when full. > >I have found they read much better if I put a 22 ohm resistor in series >with the sender, making empty read just off the E mark, and making full >read right on the F mark. ( "Empty" and "full" positions are determined by >actually rotating the tanks at this point - I want to get them reading ok >just before I will be putting them in the wing.) > >My question is if there is anything wrong with doing this, and if not, >should the resistor be placed at the sender or at the gauge, and are there >any ideas about a rugged mount for adding a series resistor? Not at all. A really good gaging system has potentiometers on it to do just what you've discovered works for you. I'd put it inside the airplane. You can cut the resistor's leads to 1/4" each end (use 1/2 watt or bigger for mechanical robustness) and just lap solder the wires to the resistor leads. Put small pieces of heatshrink over solder joints and a large piece over the whole assembly. >Also, there are minor differences between sender and gauge combinations - >is this normal? I was extra careful to make sure the senders were >installed all exactly the same way. You'll just have to check and see. I've seen some pretty good float transducers and some pretty bad ones. The one thing that disappoints me most about "modern" automobiles is the fuel gaging. My '95 Safari has 4 gallons left at "E" and is 4 gallons short of full at "F" and is 3 gallons below true half at midscale on the gage . . . my 1941 Pontiac was better calibrated. Whatever you need to do the fool the thing into working right is perfectly justifiable and practical. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Coaxial cable
Date: Nov 11, 201
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > Never did carry it. RG-58 is an obsolete spec for a wire designed > in WWII . . . PVC and Polyethylene. We haven't used it in production > airplanes in the past 15 years or so. > *** Bob, Do you know if RG-400 is better WRT shelf life ( and installed life! ) than RG58? In connection with a general avionics upgrade, I replaced the 25 year old RG58/U coax feeding my DME antenna. Before the upgrade, the DME only worked within a mile of the station ( ! ). It was essentially useless. By replacing the old RG58/U with RG400, the DME was restored to full normal operation. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
Subject: Re: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring
Date: Nov 12, 2001
Thanks Bob! You know now that I take a closer look at them they do look like the same "Plastigrip Style" on my 1969 Camaro!! Tom in Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring > > > > >Bob: There is a decent picture of the probe with shielding and wire at > >www.buy-ei.com/p-100%20detail.htm The wire is shielded (For heat?) and the > >connectors appear to be just push on male-female. > > Uggh! Those look like "plastigrip" style automotive fast-ons. > I guess they've been using them long enough to have some > degree of confidence in them crimped onto theromocouple wire. > Not my first choice (or even 4th) but if that's what they > recommend, go for it. > > Bob . . . > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
Subject: Re: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring
Date: Nov 12, 2001
I will call Ron today. My instruction manual doesn't say one way or another about shortning the leads but if I can it will give me enough for 2 extra probe runs! The probe extensions run $23.00 a piece! Thanks, Tom in Ohio (RV6-A) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Chambers" <schamber@glasgow-ky.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring <schamber@glasgow-ky.com> > > Tom, > > I called Ron Roberts at EI and he sent me some of the connectors. You can > cut the wires to any length if memory serves, check in the manual or with > Ron. > > Sam Chambers > Long-EZ N775AM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> > To: > Subject: AeroElectric-List: CHT & EGT Probe Extension Wiring > > > > > > > Listers: I have installed the probes for my Electronics International > > Rotary Switch that will connect to my Vans CHT & EHT Gauges and find the > > probe extension wire is way to long. > > 1) Can I cut these shielded wires to length inside the cabin > > where they attach to the E.I. Rotary Switch? > > 2) Where can I find the 8 Male and 8 Female Insulated Nylon > > Push on connectors I will need to once again plug into the Rotary > > Switch? These appear to be sort of special but I can't find a number or > > name on them for size. > > Hope someone has been there done that on an RV6-A. > > > > > > Tom in Ohio > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2001
From: Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Gauge calibration
Talking about sender calibration, here is how my VDO gauge measures: 2 gal. Empty (on + side), 7 gal. 1/4, 10 gal 1/2, 11.5gal 3/4, 12.5 gal Full. I don't like this at all and I'm wondering if anything could be done about that.? I'm using the 240-33ohm version of the VDO senders and gauges. Michel Therrien --- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > Nuckolls, III" > > Liming > > > > > >I am using VDO fuel gauge senders and ISSPRO fuel > gauges. I have found > >that they work, but do not reflect full movement > like I would like them to, > >i.e., it reads 1/8 when empty, and pegs the meter > when full. > > > >I have found they read much better if I put a 22 > ohm resistor in series > >with the sender, making empty read just off the E > mark, and making full > >read right on the F mark. ( "Empty" and "full" > positions are determined by >... > Not at all. A really good gaging system has > potentiometers > on it to do just what you've discovered works for > you. I'd > put it inside the airplane. You can cut the > resistor's leads > to 1/4" each end (use 1/2 watt or bigger for > mechanical > robustness) and just lap solder the wires to the > resistor leads. > Put small pieces of heatshrink over solder joints > and a large > piece over the whole assembly. > You'll just have to check and see. I've seen some > pretty > good float transducers and some pretty bad ones. > The one > thing that disappoints me most about "modern" > automobiles > is the fuel gaging. My '95 Safari has 4 gallons > left at > "E" and is 4 gallons short of full at "F" and is > 3 gallons > below true half at midscale on the gage . . . my > 1941 > Pontiac was better calibrated. > > Whatever you need to do the fool the thing into > working > right is perfectly justifiable and practical. ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dave ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: SD8 & battery
Date: Nov 12, 2001
If you have an SD-8 and a larger, engine driven alternator, you don't need dual batteries. Bob, I'm a little confused, I thought you had said before that the SD8 would require a battery to "come on line" and also for better filtering. I plan to use the SD8 dedicated for one of the EI/FI modules. Dave Ford RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com>
Subject: Oscillating ammeter needle -Alternator-Voltage reg-Battery?
Date: Nov 12, 2001
Listers, After 1855 plus hours of flying my RV-6A, I just replaced the split master switch. The old switch had a resistance in the field contacts that caused the alternator/regulator to oscillate +-..5 volts. This only occurs when the lights/strobes were on, or whenever the system load currents were higher than those found during day, VFR operations. Any resistance (bad contacts) in the regulator filed circuit in a regulator that does not have a separate voltage sense input, can cause this phenomena to occur. Fred Stucklen N925RV (1755 hrs/8 Yrs) E. Windsor, CT 06088 WK Email: stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com Hm/Travel Email: wstucklen1(at)juno.com ____ From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Oscillating ammeter needle -Alternator-Voltage reg-Battery? >I had this same problem on a 78 Cheetah. I did the following without any >effect on the oscillating. Note: after each step, I ran the engine to see >if there was any change. > >1. Replaced the Master Switch. >2. Replaced the battery >3. Removed, cleaned and replaced the battery cables (both hot and ground) on >both the battery and the Master-Relay/Ground respectively >4, by-passed the master switch with a jumper wire >5, cleaned the ground straps on the engine mount >6. added an additional ground from the alternator bracket to the alternator >controller >7. cleaned all connections to the alternator controller >8. replaced the alternator controller with another controller from a Tiger >9, shorted out the 50 amp circuit breaker >10. and finally, installed a new, electronic (the low profile type) >Zeftronics alternator controller > >Now, after I installed the new alternator controller, the ammeter was steady >UNTIL I turned on all electronic equipment and really loaded the electrical >system. The needle would still oscillate but only slightly. I personally >don't think I found the problem. I think the new controller is just better >at keeping the current flow steady. >OK, Mr Nuckolls, what's wrong with the charging system? Maybe nothing. How strong is the "oscillation"? Does the wiggle manifest itself in visible flickering of the panel lights at night? I've encountered a number alternator/ regulator combinations that featured wavy ammeter needles wherein the observable instability was not a problem elsewhere in the system. ><< My ammeter needle is oscillating between a nominally high charge rate >followed by zero at a fairly high frequency. It has done this for some time >but at a lower amplitude. There is an indication of overcharging of the >battery with some excessive fluid loss, but not that much. I have checked >the security of the connections at the master switch as discussed in >previous posts and they seem okay, although I did not remove and clean them >because they are hard to get to and I am not as flexible as I used to be. I >did have a possibly poor connection of the field wire at the (Zeftronics) >alternator controller the other week. The alternator would not come online. >I disconnected the field wire and reseated it, then all was normal. Have >since flown about 12 hours with no more field problems but still have the >oscillation. Could anyone suggest the best troubleshooting procedure to >track down the problem once and for all? >> If the lights aren't flickering, there are no noises in the radios attributable to the alternator system and the bus voltage is where it belongs, I wouldn't worry about it. The only thing I noticed that you did not investigate was the alternator itself. Poor brush performance could trigger some instabilities too. Get a generic Ford regulator from an autoparts store . . . circa 1985. Standard VR-166 is one of dozens of suitable parts. Tie S and A terminals together and fit it with an alligator clip on a 12" leadwire. Put another clip lead on the case of the regulator. Add a third lead to the F terminal and put either a clip or fast-on terminal on the end to facilitate connection to your alternator. Disconnect the wire from regulator to alternator and install your test regulator by attaching case lead to alternator frame, F lead to alternator field, and AS lead to alternator b-lead. Fire up the engine and watch the ammeter, voltmeter and listen for noises or effects attributed to the alternator system. If any or all go away when the substitute regulator is in place, then you need to do some more work on the regulator/control system. If the problem is still there, then the alternator needs attention. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: Re: Oscillating ammeter needle -Alternator-Voltage
reg-Battery?
Date: Nov 12, 2001
I had a similiar problem in a C150 and it turned out to be a missing ground that resulted in a "strange" current loop in the charging circuit. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Oscillating ammeter needle -Alternator-Voltage reg-Battery? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: Servo Connector Heatshrink (silicone rubber tape)
Date: Nov 12, 2001
Bob, How is the "silicone rubber tape" used/applied? (I assume it is "backup" for places where one forgot to install heat shrink on the wire before soldering the wire in position): - In using the tape, would I apply heat to shrink it? Or, is it self-adhesive and goo'y enuf to make a reasonable air tight seal? - How wide is the tape? David Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Servo Connector Heatshrink > 3/4" heatshrink goes over the 9-pin dsub connectors > quite nicely. Digikey sells several suitable products > in 4 foot lengths. You can also use the silcone rubber <<<<< > tape sold by B&C from our website catalog at: <<<<< > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/slikstik/chem.html#s894 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2001
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Free Copy of Van's New "THE RV STORY" Video!
Hey Listers! In support of the 2001 Email List Fund Raiser, Andy Gold of The Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com/ ) is donating a FREE COPY of the new edition of Van's "The RV Story" video (VHS) to any Email List Member making a Contribution of $50 or more! To take advantage of this wonderful Offer, please include the following information along with your Contribution, either in the Message Box if you Contribute on-line, or on a slip of paper if your Contribution is by check via the USMail: Van's RV Story Video Offer $50 or Greater Contributor [your name] [your shipping address] [your City, State and Zip Code] If you've already made a Contribution in 2001 of $50 or more and would like to receive the video, please drop me an email ( dralle(at)matronics.com ) and include the information shown above with the words "Video Offer" in the Subject line. Please note that this new edition of "The RV Story" will first be available in about 8 weeks. I want to thank Andy Gold and the Builder's Book Store for this *very generous* Contribution! If you haven't taken a moment to check out The Builder's Book Store web site yet, you owe it to yourself to have a look ( http://www.buildersbooks.com/ ). Andy has a fabulous selection of interesting, informative, and exceptionally useful books and videos on his site. Please have a look! Again, I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution so far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Your Contributions make all of the Lists and Services found here possible - period. Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 12, 2001
Subject: Master Contactor Connections
This seems like a really dumb problem but I find that the battery terminal studs on my master relay (from Van's) are so short that I can barely get one fat wire terminal on and still have threads enough to get a lock washer and thin brass nut on. There is not enough length to even get a thin diode ring terminal on there, let alone a connection to the essential bus. Has anyone else run into this, and if so, how did you solve it? I'm thinking about one or the other following solutions. 1) The studs are retained in the relay case with a thick nut and a captive cup shaped washer, so I could disassemble the nut and cup washer and replace the existing nut with a much thinner brass nut. 2) I could install an intermediate terminal post like connection, like a big brass bolt, insulated from ground of course, between the battery and the battery terminal on the master relay where I could make the other necessary connections. Any better ideas will be much appreciated. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, finish kit stuff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2001
From: Steve Kay <skay(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Coaxial cable
Bob, I've got a lot of RG-6 (quad shielded, solid center conductor) from wiring my home theater. Would it be appropriate for any radio application? -Steve jerry(at)tr2.com wrote: > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > > > > Do you know if RG-400 is better WRT shelf life ( and installed life! ) > than RG58? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2001
From: Kevin & Theresa Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor Connections
> >This seems like a really dumb problem but I find that the battery terminal >studs on my master relay (from Van's) are so short that I can barely get one >fat wire terminal on and still have threads enough to get a lock washer and >thin brass nut on. There is not enough length to even get a thin diode ring >terminal on there, let alone a connection to the essential bus. Has anyone >else run into this, and if so, how did you solve it? I'm thinking about one >or the other following solutions. 1) The studs are retained in the relay >case with a thick nut and a captive cup shaped washer, so I could disassemble >the nut and cup washer and replace the existing nut with a much thinner brass >nut. 2) I could install an intermediate terminal post like connection, like >a big brass bolt, insulated from ground of course, between the battery and >the battery terminal on the master relay where I could make the other >necessary connections. Any better ideas will be much appreciated. > >Harry Crosby >Pleasanton, California >RV-6, finish kit stuff > I think I've got the same contactor, and I made it work by using a star washer type of lock washer and a thin brass nut. The star washer is much thinner than the hardware store style split lock washer that came with the contactor. Good luck, -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine & electrics) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor Connections
> >> >>This seems like a really dumb problem but I find that the battery terminal >>studs on my master relay (from Van's) are so short that I can barely get one >>fat wire terminal on and still have threads enough to get a lock washer and >>thin brass nut on. There is not enough length to even get a thin diode ring >>terminal on there, let alone a connection to the essential bus. Has anyone >>else run into this, and if so, how did you solve it? I'm thinking about one >>or the other following solutions. 1) The studs are retained in the relay >>case with a thick nut and a captive cup shaped washer, so I could disassemble >>the nut and cup washer and replace the existing nut with a much thinner brass >>nut. 2) I could install an intermediate terminal post like connection, like >>a big brass bolt, insulated from ground of course, between the battery and >>the battery terminal on the master relay where I could make the other >>necessary connections. Any better ideas will be much appreciated. >> >>Harry Crosby >>Pleasanton, California >>RV-6, finish kit stuff >> > >I think I've got the same contactor, and I made it work by using a >star washer type of lock washer and a thin brass nut. The star >washer is much thinner than the hardware store style split lock >washer that came with the contactor. Split ring lockwashers are not recommended for electrical connections. I'm continually amazed that people like Standard and Cole-Hersee put these things on their products when they KNOW that an internal tooth, berillium-copper (good) or phosphor-bronze (best) lockwasher is both thinner and a superior device for improving both electrical and mechanical integrity of the joint. Our contactors come with split ring washers and fat structural steel nuts. We throw those away and send them out with proper locwashers and brass jam nuts which are more than adequate for an electrical connection and thinner to boot. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: P&B W28 circuit beakers
>Hi Bob, >Do you know anything about the W28 switchable circuit breaker series? They >are a fraction of the cost of the others, and they have Faston tabs. I was >thinking of using a couple on circuits I want to be able to switch on/off, >like the alternator field and the aux essential bus feed. Why are these >priced so differently from the other breakers. >Still a fan of your ATC fuse system. Anything that costs less than its contemporary competition has to cost less to manufacture. Designers don't built cost into a product for the fun of it . . . there have to be reasons (some of them not good of course) why there is a price differential. It's safe to assume there's significant variation in the internal guts. I can probably find you a "switch breaker" for under $1 each if you wanted to buy 10,000 of them. They're find for a kitchen mixer but probably not well suited to airplane panels. The W28 breakers have been used on lots of airplanes and are probably good value . . . I've never used one in a design as they are not a necessary combination of features and as I recall their bat handles look a lot different than the switches. Never could warm up to the critters. The alternate feed switch circuit needs to be protected right at the battery, a switch breaker is not suitable for this application. The alternator field should come on and off with the battery master . . . you need a breaker too for ov protection downstream of the fusible link. A miniature breaker of any style would be fine here . . . I just stick it in the same row as the switches since it's the only breaker on most panels. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Oscillating ammeter needle -Alternator-Voltage
reg-Battery? > >I had a similiar problem in a C150 and it turned out to be a missing ground >that resulted in a "strange" current loop in the charging circuit. > >Paul That's an excellent point. The regulators used on Cessnas are generic ford or clones thereof. They depend on chassis ground for an electrical connection in the regulation sense circuit. Ground currents circulating in the airframe can be another source of interference with the regulator's ability to do a good job. Paul, do you recall the specific hardware that produced the degraded performance you cite? Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: SD8 & battery
> > >If you have an SD-8 and a larger, engine driven > alternator, you don't need dual batteries. > >Bob, > >I'm a little confused, I thought you had said before that the SD8 would >require a battery to "come on line" and also for better filtering. I >plan to use the SD8 dedicated for one of the EI/FI modules. > >Dave Ford Why so complicated? If you have a well maintained RG main battery and two engine driven power sources (particularly if both are B&C) . . . you're NOT going to suffer an electrical emergency. Both EI/FI systems can run from always hot battery feeds (individual fusible links if you like) and run very comfortably in the single battery, two alternator configuration . . . The next step up is to add an AUX battery a-la Figure Z-30 to Figure Z-13. Run one EI/FI on the main battery bus and the other off the aux battery bus. If the aux battery is small, you can use a fat relay instead of a contactor. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Oscillating ammeter needle
-Alternator-Voltage reg-Battery? > >Listers, > > After 1855 plus hours of flying my RV-6A, I just replaced the split >master switch. The old switch had a resistance in the field contacts that >caused the alternator/regulator to oscillate +-..5 volts. This only occurs >when the lights/strobes were on, or whenever the system load currents were >higher than those found during day, VFR operations. > Any resistance (bad contacts) in the regulator filed circuit in a >regulator that does not have a separate voltage sense input, can cause this >phenomena to occur. Used to have a baggie full of those things removed from various OBAM and spam-cans that were replaced for the same reason. Pitched 'em a couple of years ago for taking up too much room in my desk drawer. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: RE: Oscillating ammeter needle -Alternator-Voltage
reg-Battery?
Date: Nov 13, 2001
The problem was a poor engine to airframe ground and this showed up when the "rotating tail beacon" was turned on. Note this "beacon is really a light being turned on and off to simulate a rotating light. The "battery chgarging ammeter" would pulse in sync with the light. When I properly grounded the engine to airframe the pulseing stopped. The owner then asked what I had done as he used the "pulsing ammeter" as a "its working" check. Basically the battery and alternator negative circuits were grounded thru the shields and control cables. Been that way for many years. Also cured other syrange electrical problems including a poorly charged battery. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Oscillating ammeter needle -Alternator-Voltage reg-Battery? > >I had a similiar problem in a C150 and it turned out to be a missing ground >that resulted in a "strange" current loop in the charging circuit. > >Paul That's an excellent point. The regulators used on Cessnas are generic ford or clones thereof. They depend on chassis ground for an electrical connection in the regulation sense circuit. Ground currents circulating in the airframe can be another source of interference with the regulator's ability to do a good job. Paul, do you recall the specific hardware that produced the degraded performance you cite? Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Crimpers
>From: <mailto:onvacation(at)home.com>Jill Lussow >To: sales(at)bandcspecialty.com >Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 11:18 AM >Subject: Crimpers > >I have a question about a couple of your crimpers. I have a Garmin GPS/Comm that I am installing and wanted to know if your RCT-3 Machine pin crimper will work. The radio has 2 plugs, the first is a 37 pin D-sub and the other is a HD-26 D-sub. All of the wires are 22 AWG except the power lines and they are 18 AWG. Will this tool work? The RCT-3 will install both standard (20AWG) and high density (22AWG) pins. 18AWG power wires can be used but you need to clip off 7 strands of wire in order to get the 18AWG wire to fit a 20AWG pin. This does not degrade the effectiveness of the joint and still lets you take advantage of the lower voltage drop in the heavier 18AWG wire. > >I have a Greenlee ratchet crimper and wondered if your RCT-1 is the same or if it crimps differently for aviation purposes. Sounds like a dumb question but I don't want to risk my aircraft for a dumb mistake. The people around here recommend the AMP Pro Crimper II, what do you think? Not familiar with the Greenlee product you cite. Amp Pro-Crimper II tools are for the open-barrel, sheet metal pins. If you try to put a 20AWG wire on an 18AWG wire with this tool, you'll get a compromised electrical joint. Further, the insulation will be too large for a good grip by the tabs on a 20AWG pin. If it were my airplane, I'd discard the sheet metal pins and substitute machined pins installed with the RCT-3. If your radio was supplied with sheet metal pins, you need our bct-1 tool. I have not tried this tool with the smaller high density sheet metal pins . . . my gut feeling is that I probably wouldn't use these pins or this tool in my project. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#bct-1 Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Coaxial cable
> >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> Never did carry it. RG-58 is an obsolete spec for a wire designed >> in WWII . . . PVC and Polyethylene. We haven't used it in production >> airplanes in the past 15 years or so. >> >*** Bob, > > Do you know if RG-400 is better WRT shelf life ( and installed life! ) >than RG58? MUCH longer. Modern coaxes are insulated with cousins to Teflon/Tefzel . . . RG-58 is PVC/Polyethylene . . . about 50 year old stuff. > In connection with a general avionics upgrade, I replaced the 25 year >old RG58/U coax feeding my DME antenna. Before the upgrade, the DME only >worked within a mile of the station ( ! ). It was essentially useless. >By replacing the old RG58/U with RG400, the DME was restored to full >normal operation. There you go! Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Coaxial cable
> >Bob, I've got a lot of RG-6 (quad shielded, solid center conductor) from wiring >my home theater. Would it be appropriate for any radio application? -Steve I'd have to look up the specs on this stuff . . . I think it's a well shielded material suited for noisy building environments but I think RG-6 insulation is not as whippy as RG-400 or RG-142. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 13, 2001
Subject: Multiple wires in single terminal
Bob: I'm still fighting with a too short battery stud on my master contactor. Is it permissible to trim some strands of wire from the #4 battery cable so that I can put a # 10 wire (to essential bus switch) and the #4 wire in a #4 terminal. I am thinking of both crimping and soldering this. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, finish kit stuff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2001
From: Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: Coaxial cable
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > > > >Bob, I've got a lot of RG-6 (quad shielded, solid center conductor) from wiring > >my home theater. Would it be appropriate for any radio application? -Steve > > I'd have to look up the specs on this stuff . . . I think it's > a well shielded material suited for noisy building environments > but I think RG-6 insulation is not as whippy as RG-400 or RG-142. > > Bob . . . > RG-6 is 75 ohm cable, not 50 ohm. It's used for vhf/uhf & cable tv apps. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Master Contactor wriing
Date: Nov 13, 2001
My airplanes alternator output (B lead) is wired to the same post on the master contactor as the battery cable. This does not conform to Bob's and most other diagrams which show the alternator supply wired to the switched side of the contactor. Are there any negative implications with this arrangement? Dick Sipp N250DS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master Contactor wriing
> >My airplanes alternator output (B lead) is wired to the same post on the >master contactor as the battery cable. This does not conform to Bob's and >most other diagrams which show the alternator supply wired to the switched >side of the contactor. Are there any negative implications with this >arrangement? > >Dick Sipp >N250DS Yes . . . when the master switch is OFF, you want everything (except equipment intended to run from the always hot battery bus) to be COLD . . . that's what the word "master switch" means. What are the advantages of NOT doing this?


October 22, 2001 - November 13, 2001

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ak