AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bj
November 05, 2002 - November 17, 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph Capen"<recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Signal Splitting |
Resend since I didn't get a response - and I checked the archives too!
Bob,
I have a Comant CI182 VOR/Glideslope antenna that I am installing in the top
of my VS of my RV6A. In the instrument panel is a SL30 NAV/COM radio which
has VOR and GS functions...so-far, so-good...one NAV radio - one NAV
antenna. I would also like to incorporate a NARCO NAV-122D/GPS into this
installation. The NARCO requires that the signal be split to two antenna
leads. Not an issue as I can get a COMANT CI507 diplexer (or similar parts
of at least two other brands) to split the signal for this.
The part that I can't seem to pull together is how to share the antenna
between the SL-30 and the diplexer. Every splitter that I can find breaks
out the signal. Do I need to get something like a CI1125 which splits the
signal into two NAV's and two GS's and use the CI507 backwards to put a pair
of them back together for my SL30? Initially, I thought that a coax T
fitting should do the sharing part - but I want to make sure that it really
could be that simple.
Your thoughts...please,
Ralph Capen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <jclark(at)conterra.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator output |
Comments below ...
James
>
>
>
>
> >My suspicion is that this alternator is not producing anything near rated
> >output at the lower RPMs.
>
> It's more than a suspicion - it's a fact. Alternators are able to put out
> current (at a constant voltage) that is roughly proportional to rpm up to
> their rated current, which is at about 4,000 to 5,000 rpm. So if
> you have a
> 2:1 pulley ratio you will not be able to generate full current below about
> 2,000 rpm. At 1,000 engine rpm a "40 amp" alternator is capable of
> producing about 20 amps. In cars alternators are sized so they
> might barely
> keep up with demand at idle, but in aircraft the assumption is that full
> continuous loads are only used in flight when the engine is turning more
> than 2,000 rpm. Night operation on the ground might result in a
> low-voltage
> light, which is considered acceptable (cars don't have
> low-voltage lights).
The issue here is that after a short period of taxiing the voltage gets so
low that I **think** some items were about become "unhappy". I did not test
to failure but I was suspecting the engine monitor (EI UBG), the elctronic
ignition (ElectroAir .. Jeff Rose) and the MFD (King KMD 150) were going to
shut down. I have in fact experienced the two "instruments" shutting down
during tests with them on for an extended period with just the battery (at
*low* voltage).
The fact that the time was so short bothered me because if you are about to
do a night landing (lights on) and you have low RPM (<= 1500), it would not
be cool to have to get tugged off the runway or hand propped to make it in.
:-)
My take-away from the various comments is that there is a **BIG** difference
between the Van's 35 amp alternator and the B&C 40 amp'er (more than the
"apparent" 5 amps). Of course there is the price difference too! :-)
Thanks
James
>
> Gary Casey
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Signal Splitting |
Ralph,
Since the SL-30 splits the signal internally, you need a "T" BNC in the
line from the antenna with one leg going to the SL-30 and if the 122D
requires a splitter, connect the other leg of the "T" to the splitter
and the output of the splitter to the VOR/LOC and Glide Slope
respectively.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A FWF
Ralph Capen wrote:
>
>
> Resend since I didn't get a response - and I checked the archives too!
>
> Bob,
>
> I have a Comant CI182 VOR/Glideslope antenna that I am installing in the top
> of my VS of my RV6A. In the instrument panel is a SL30 NAV/COM radio which
> has VOR and GS functions...so-far, so-good...one NAV radio - one NAV
> antenna. I would also like to incorporate a NARCO NAV-122D/GPS into this
> installation. The NARCO requires that the signal be split to two antenna
> leads. Not an issue as I can get a COMANT CI507 diplexer (or similar parts
> of at least two other brands) to split the signal for this.
> The part that I can't seem to pull together is how to share the antenna
> between the SL-30 and the diplexer. Every splitter that I can find breaks
> out the signal. Do I need to get something like a CI1125 which splits the
> signal into two NAV's and two GS's and use the CI507 backwards to put a pair
> of them back together for my SL30? Initially, I thought that a coax T
> fitting should do the sharing part - but I want to make sure that it really
> could be that simple.
>
> Your thoughts...please,
> Ralph Capen
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio/Intercom Noise |
Hi Bruce,
Believe me, I don't take offense at any suggestion someone volunteers in trying
to help me :) Thanks for the input...I'll double check to make sure the
mike is right-side in. My hope is that it will be something that easy!
Bill Yamokoski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio/Intercom Noise |
>
>
>Hi Folks,
> Still digging around trying to get at the root of my radio noise. I
> was finally able to hear what my radio sounds like....The headset mike
> (brand new Lightspeed 20XL) seems to pick up every ambient noise within
> 10 feet of the airplane. I could hear the engine growling away quite
> clearly....not electrical noise, the engine itself. A perusal through
> the archives showed Bob's opinion that the mike itself could be the
> problem, some being much better than others at dealing with ambient
> noise. Have any of you Lightspeed owners had a mike problem? One
> lister mentioned the possibility of adjusting the mike gain at the
> headset. I'm not sure how that can be done. I've got the MicroAir 760
> and Flightcom 430 intercom. I want to satisfy myself that the mike
> itself is not the problem before tackling the radio mike gain. Thanks
> for any thoughts on this.
Have you tried another head-set/mic combo with this setup . . .
or even just a hand-held mic plugged in to bypass the mic
on your headset?
For close proximity sensitivity (6" or less) the microphone's
dominant mode of operation is to be most responsive to
sounds coming from one direction (your mouth) but as the
noise sources move further away, the directional distinction
goes away . . . this is why a noise canceling mic CAN work
so well.
If you have strong responses to noises more than a couple
of feet away, the microphone is either
(1) not a noise cancelling microphone or (2)
damaged.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator output |
>
>The issue here is that after a short period of taxiing the voltage gets so
>low that I **think** some items were about become "unhappy". I did not test
>to failure but I was suspecting the engine monitor (EI UBG), the elctronic
>ignition (ElectroAir .. Jeff Rose) and the MFD (King KMD 150) were going to
>shut down. I have in fact experienced the two "instruments" shutting down
>during tests with them on for an extended period with just the battery (at
>*low* voltage).
>
>The fact that the time was so short bothered me because if you are about to
>do a night landing (lights on) and you have low RPM (<= 1500), it would not
>be cool to have to get tugged off the runway or hand propped to make it in.
>:-)
There is an underlying issue here. Do you have an e-bus? When
you turn the alternator OFF and run e-bus only directly from
the battery, how well do things on the e-bus run? Can you run
3-4 hours with a battery-only fed e-bus?
If you had things start shutting down in a few minutes after
the low voltage condition made itself evident, then you
may want to consider that event in light of
is battery too small?
were there a LOT of things turned on that the battery would
not be expected to support during failed alternator operations?
was the battery fully charged . . . i.e. is the bus voltage
running high enough normally (14.2 to 14.6) to keep the battery
happy?
is the battery shot?
>My take-away from the various comments is that there is a **BIG** difference
>between the Van's 35 amp alternator and the B&C 40 amp'er (more than the
>"apparent" 5 amps). Of course there is the price difference too! :-)
The biggest difference is probably pulley size. . . If I recall
correctly, Van pioneered the "oversized" pulley to slow down
alternators that wouldn't last well on airplanes. B&C took
the opposite approach . . . find out why the bearings failed
and see if that problem could be fixed without having to slow
down the alternator. Balancing the rotors turns out to be the
REAL solution thus preserving alternator performance at
low engine RPMs.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Minimum crew during flyoff |
I have heard that many people have used a second person during flight test to
calibrate the AOA system. I am concerned whether or not this is a system that
must tested out to complete the test analysis, or is it something that can be
calibrated after the FAA signs you off for PAX's. I am far from this phase
yet, maybe someone can define as to what is all required to be tested out as
per the FAA, i.e. autopilot, AOA, vor, ILS,GS intercept, as well as engine
parameters etc. Food for thought.
Ed
N823MS
Lancair ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <jclark(at)conterra.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator output |
Comments below ...
Thanks,
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 3:22 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Alternator output
>
>
> III"
>
>
> >
> >The issue here is that after a short period of taxiing the
> voltage gets so
> >low that I **think** some items were about become "unhappy". I
> did not test
> >to failure but I was suspecting the engine monitor (EI UBG), the
> elctronic
> >ignition (ElectroAir .. Jeff Rose) and the MFD (King KMD 150)
> were going to
> >shut down. I have in fact experienced the two "instruments" shutting down
> >during tests with them on for an extended period with just the
> battery (at
> >*low* voltage).
> >
> >The fact that the time was so short bothered me because if you
> are about to
> >do a night landing (lights on) and you have low RPM (<= 1500),
> it would not
> >be cool to have to get tugged off the runway or hand propped to
> make it in.
> >:-)
>
> There is an underlying issue here. Do you have an e-bus? When
> you turn the alternator OFF and run e-bus only directly from
> the battery, how well do things on the e-bus run? Can you run
> 3-4 hours with a battery-only fed e-bus?
I do have the ability to shut everything but the critical items (electronic
ignition + TC +radio).
And this would indeed run for a long time (3-4 hours) via the battery bus.
I knew I was close but I am accustomed to the alternator "keeping up" at low
RPM.
>
> If you had things start shutting down in a few minutes after
> the low voltage condition made itself evident, then you
> may want to consider that event in light of
>
> is battery too small?
>
> were there a LOT of things turned on that the battery would
> not be expected to support during failed alternator operations?
>
Yes! I was not clear ... These are not **critical** items. They are more
"convenient". I was botherd by how FAST the voltage drops at low idle when
they were all on. With both lights on, I cannot taxi the length of the
runway before I get low voltage (unless I taxi at 1800RPM standing on the
brakes :-) )
> was the battery fully charged . . . i.e. is the bus voltage
> running high enough normally (14.2 to 14.6) to keep the battery
> happy?
>
> is the battery shot?
>
Battery seems to be fully charged. Voltage is in the range mentioned above.
>
> >My take-away from the various comments is that there is a
> **BIG** difference
> >between the Van's 35 amp alternator and the B&C 40 amp'er (more than the
> >"apparent" 5 amps). Of course there is the price difference too! :-)
>
> The biggest difference is probably pulley size. . . If I recall
> correctly, Van pioneered the "oversized" pulley to slow down
> alternators that wouldn't last well on airplanes. B&C took
> the opposite approach . . . find out why the bearings failed
> and see if that problem could be fixed without having to slow
> down the alternator. Balancing the rotors turns out to be the
> REAL solution thus preserving alternator performance at
> low engine RPMs.
>
My partner and I talked about this altrnator's capacity earlier before first
flight but we decided to go ahead with it since we had it. It is probaly
just fine for 90% of the time. I am just trying to make sure my theorie are
correct about the other 10% as well as what the solution is if we decide
that the last 10% (or 8%) needs to be covered.
I had forgotten about the pulley discussion that was had here some months
(years??) ago. That response rings so true (it seems) in this case.
Wouldn't it be nice if these alternators came with a chart indicating "rated
output at say 1000/1500/2000/2500 RPM??
I think we have covered this subject ... so THANKS to all who responded.
James
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator output |
Is 3-4 hours of runtime on an e-bus the standard?
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
the battery, how well do things on the e-bus run? Can you run
3-4 hours with a battery-only fed e-bus?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity calculations |
>
> >To sum it up, your messages conforts me in the opinion the best
compromise
> >for our electrically dependant engine is two 9 Ah Hawker batteries with
> >a battery management module or something.
>
> Don't even need a battery management module as long as you have
> SOME form of active notification of alternator failure. There
> is PLENTY of time to react to this situation even if you don't
> have automatic battery disconnect designed into your system.
>
> Bob . . .
Bob,
Your replies REALLY helped us in making our last decisions.
What we feel interesting in this battery management module thing is it takes
care of the two batteries with no intervention of the pilot.
We'd like to retain only the master and Ess Bus switches on the panel.
Has the battery Management Module reached production maturity, and can we
expect to order one, or do we have to assemble it from scratch according to
your drawings ?
Thanks,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <jclark(at)conterra.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator output |
I don't know.
I think in terms of how long I *must* be up before I can reach a "safe"
place to land if all goes wrong.
I suspect that is more on the order of 30 minutes typically, but could
easily be 1 hour if it is at night on a long cross country.
Double that for the unforseen and double it again for the "fuzzy-factor"
:-)
Also in an RV, if you can go 3-4 hours, then the electrical system is NOT
the limiting factor of continued flight.
Seriously, I suspect it is different for each person based on far thery
venture from reasonable landing places in the event of "failure". The other
point for some might be how long to safely get back to the "home airport"
without incident.
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> Shannon Knoepflein
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 3:47 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Alternator output
>
>
>
>
> Is 3-4 hours of runtime on an e-bus the standard?
>
> ---
> Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
>
> the battery, how well do things on the e-bus run? Can you run
> 3-4 hours with a battery-only fed e-bus?
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Hi Ed -
Was looking at your second round on the electrical bus loadings and
noted that you plan to install lighting rings.
Ron & I bought some last year and have decided not to use them. We have
7 NuLite rings that can be had for a good price.
We have:
5 LW3014's and
2 LW3014AA
We paid $36.00 each (reflects Sun N Fun discounted price) and would be
willing to let them go for $30 each. They have never been out of the
box.
Cheers,
John Schroeder
>
> Aux Power Distribution:
>
> Aux Alt Fld
> Aux Alt Low volts
> Aud/ com G 340
> GNS-530
> GNS-430
> GTX-327
> Trutrak Auto pilot--200 0r 250.
> BMA EFIS/Lite or Dynon EFIS 10
> Instrument lightening rings
> Yaw trim
> Pitch trim
> Roll trim
> A/H
> AOA
> Fuel boost pump? Here there is a dual speed pump. don't know if you
> can separate the power sources for these speeds.
> GI-106a
> GI-102
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization and availability |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>
> >
> > >To sum it up, your messages conforts me in the opinion the best
>compromise
> > >for our electrically dependant engine is two 9 Ah Hawker batteries with
> > >a battery management module or something.
> >
> > Don't even need a battery management module as long as you have
> > SOME form of active notification of alternator failure. There
> > is PLENTY of time to react to this situation even if you don't
> > have automatic battery disconnect designed into your system.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Your replies REALLY helped us in making our last decisions.
>What we feel interesting in this battery management module thing is it takes
>care of the two batteries with no intervention of the pilot.
>We'd like to retain only the master and Ess Bus switches on the panel.
>
>Has the battery Management Module reached production maturity, and can we
>expect to order one, or do we have to assemble it from scratch according to
>your drawings ?
I don't recommend that the ABMM be used as the only
means for getting the aux battery contactor closed. ALL
of our suggested wiring diagrams suggest a three-position,
aux battery master switch. Bottom position is OFF, mid position
is AUTO, full up position bypasses the ABMM and turns the
aux battery master contactor ON. This allows using both
batteries for cranking. It also allows for manual connection
of the battery to the ship's system even if the alternator
is off line. This makes BOTH batteries available at pilot
discretion to ALL ship's accessories whether or not the
alternator is working.
I'm putting the first production batch of ABMM's together
now. They might be finished this evening . . . tomorrow
at the latest. I'll get them up on the website as soon
as the solder cools.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Slaughter" <willslau(at)alumni.rice.edu> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator output |
The B&C alternators have just such charts. Go to the web site, select the
alternator, then click on the "Outline Drawing" link. Output vs alternator
RPM is charted. Check the pulley sizes to convert to engine RPM.
William
Wouldn't it be nice if these alternators came with a chart indicating "rated
output at say 1000/1500/2000/2500 RPM??
I think we have covered this subject ... so THANKS to all who responded.
James
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator output |
>
>
>Is 3-4 hours of runtime on an e-bus the standard?
Sure. If your airplane is fitted with fuel tanks that
permit 3-4 hours of operation for the engine, why
would you design an electrical system for any less
endurance?
If I've just punched through an overcast to VFR
over the top, the alternator craps, and my airport
of intended destination is 3 hours away in CAVU
weather . . . I'd like to have the option of a
comfortable arrival there than to file back down
through the crud . . .
I don't know as I would want to call it
"standard" . . . but it's an easy an logical thing
to do. Can't imagine why any thoughtful builder
would not choose to do it.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Alternator output |
I don't want to put words in your mouth, Bob, but I'd like to
reiterate own thing that your design methodology implies. If
the alternator craps out, you should shed load from the battery
(or whatever other backup sources - either manually or automatically)
such that you can continue the flight to the end of the fuel endurance
with enough electricals to make aviating, navigating and communicating
possible. And, you should have enough at the end to turn on some more
lights and radios for the last few minutes of flight spent in the
terminal environment.
At night, make for darned sure the landing light is off, turn off the
nav lights, strobes, non-essential com/nav radios, extra cabin lights,
and other power draws. Or, budget them in as required, and buy (and
haul around) bigger batteries in order to operate the equipment that you
want to have available.
Matt Prather
N34RD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Date: Tuesday, November 5, 2002 4:23 pm
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Alternator output
>
> >
> >
> >Is 3-4 hours of runtime on an e-bus the standard?
>
>
> Sure. If your airplane is fitted with fuel tanks that
> permit 3-4 hours of operation for the engine, why
> would you design an electrical system for any less
> endurance?
>
> If I've just punched through an overcast to VFR
> over the top, the alternator craps, and my airport
> of intended destination is 3 hours away in CAVU
> weather . . . I'd like to have the option of a
> comfortable arrival there than to file back down
> through the crud . . .
>
> I don't know as I would want to call it
> "standard" . . . but it's an easy an logical thing
> to do. Can't imagine why any thoughtful builder
> would not choose to do it.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
> | over the man who cannot read them. |
> | - Mark Twain |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
> _-
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack Haviland <jgh(at)iavbbs.com> |
Short of buying a CAD program costing hundreds of dollars, is there some
fairly straight forward way of using a Macintosh computer to modify the
wiring diagrams posted on Bob's site?
Jack H.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio/Intercom Noise |
William Yamokoski wrote:
>
>
> Hi Folks, Still digging around trying to get at the root of my radio noise.
> I was finally able to hear what my radio sounds like....The headset mike
> (brand new Lightspeed 20XL) seems to pick up every ambient noise within 10
> feet of the airplane. I could hear the engine growling away quite
> clearly....not electrical noise, the engine itself. A perusal through the
> archives showed Bob's opinion that the mike itself could be the problem, some
> being much better than others at dealing with ambient noise. Have any of
> you Lightspeed owners had a mike problem? One lister mentioned the
> possibility of adjusting the mike gain at the headset. I'm not sure how
> that can be done. I've got the MicroAir 760 and Flightcom 430 intercom.
I
> want to satisfy myself that the mike itself is not the problem before
> tackling the radio mike gain. Thanks for any thoughts on this. Bill
> Yamokoski
>
>
Try calling Lightspeed & asking how to adjust the mic gain. There's a small hole
in the mic element itself. Lightspeed can tell you what kind of tool to use
(IIRC, a flat blade jeweler's screwdriver).
Also, some comms have a mic gain adjustment. Does the MicroAir? Does the
intercom sound ok between the two headsets while flying?
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator output |
>
>
> >
> > were there a LOT of things turned on that the battery would
> > not be expected to support during failed alternator operations?
> >
>
>Yes! I was not clear ... These are not **critical** items. They are more
>"convenient". I was botherd by how FAST the voltage drops at low idle when
>they were all on. With both lights on, I cannot taxi the length of the
>runway before I get low voltage (unless I taxi at 1800RPM standing on the
>brakes :-) (
"Low voltage" in most systems simply means that the bus
is too low to keep the battery from taking on part of
the load . . . usually about 13.0 volts or below.
> > was the battery fully charged . . . i.e. is the bus voltage
> > running high enough normally (14.2 to 14.6) to keep the battery
> > happy?
> >
> > is the battery shot?
> >
>
>Battery seems to be fully charged. Voltage is in the range mentioned above.
Okay, this means that (assuming the alternator isn't damaged
in some way . . . diode out, etc) that the pulley ratio is
probably too small.
> >
> > >My take-away from the various comments is that there is a
> > **BIG** difference
> > >between the Van's 35 amp alternator and the B&C 40 amp'er (more than the
> > >"apparent" 5 amps). Of course there is the price difference too! :-)
> >
> > The biggest difference is probably pulley size. . . If I recall
> > correctly, Van pioneered the "oversized" pulley to slow down
> > alternators that wouldn't last well on airplanes. B&C took
> > the opposite approach . . . find out why the bearings failed
> > and see if that problem could be fixed without having to slow
> > down the alternator. Balancing the rotors turns out to be the
> > REAL solution thus preserving alternator performance at
> > low engine RPMs.
> >
>
>My partner and I talked about this altrnator's capacity earlier before first
>flight but we decided to go ahead with it since we had it. It is probaly
>just fine for 90% of the time. I am just trying to make sure my theorie are
>correct about the other 10% as well as what the solution is if we decide
>that the last 10% (or 8%) needs to be covered.
Have you done a real load analysis like we've been discussing
on several airplanes the past two weeks? I wouldn't even consider
replacing the alternator until ANALYSIS and real measurements
prove the machine to be too small.
>I had forgotten about the pulley discussion that was had here some months
>(years??) ago. That response rings so true (it seems) in this case.
>
>Wouldn't it be nice if these alternators came with a chart indicating "rated
>output at say 1000/1500/2000/2500 RPM??
That data is usually available from manufacturers but by and large,
every automotive alternator I've worked with needs something on the
order of 4,000 to 5,000 rpm for full rated output. Here's a very
typical automotive alternator performance curve:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/80A_OutCurve.gif
This particular machine is rated at 80A full output but if
you just cut all the numbers on the y-axis in half, it would
pretty accurately depict a 40A machine too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Endurance bus - battery only ops |
>
>
>I don't know.
>
>I think in terms of how long I *must* be up before I can reach a "safe"
>place to land if all goes wrong.
>
>I suspect that is more on the order of 30 minutes typically, but could
>easily be 1 hour if it is at night on a long cross country.
>
>Double that for the unforseen and double it again for the "fuzzy-factor"
>:-)
>
>Also in an RV, if you can go 3-4 hours, then the electrical system is NOT
>the limiting factor of continued flight.
Okay, what ever fits your fuel capacity. My point is predicated
on a product I used to see at OSH in the Fly Market every year.
Some guy was selling about a 17 ah Eagle-Pitcher sealed lead acid
battery fitted with a cord and cigar-lighter plug. He offered the
notion that this battery would carry the typical spam can bus
for what he called the "critical 30 minutes" should the alternator
fail. In the case of 60A alternators on Continental powered Cessnas,
this was an all-too-often occurrence.
He further offered that since this was not bolted to the airplane,
it needed no STC for legal use in a certified ship.
After working with OBAM aircraft (and seeing Mr. Panic Battery at
OSH) for about 10 years, it occurred to me that an alternator failure
need not be an emergency. This is where the concept of an Endurance-BUS
took root some years ago.
In Chapter 17 of my book, I quoted an article from AOPA pilot
wherein the hero endured an electrical problem that became an
emergency for no good reason other than the fact he was flying
(1) a rental airplane over which the pilot had no maintenance
control and (2) DESIGNED by government decree to an architecture
that forced our hero into a situation that could have been
easily avoided.
>Seriously, I suspect it is different for each person based on far thery
>venture from reasonable landing places in the event of "failure". The other
>point for some might be how long to safely get back to the "home airport"
>without incident.
Indeed . . . as OBAM aircraft builders we are both cursed
and blessed with opportunities to do a lot of things in
accordance with our individual preferences. As an individual
with the power to make your airplane perform in ways far
superior to a new 172; let's say the goal is make FUEL the
only consumable that limits how long we can comfortably
stay aloft. If you could do this with no weight penalty
and very little increase in the cost of owning your airplane,
would you find it attractive? Would it be useful to
NOT find yourself in an "emergency" situation because
the alternator wasn't working?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <jclark(at)conterra.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator output |
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:51 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Alternator output
>
> {SNIP} ...
>
> Have you done a real load analysis like we've been discussing
> on several airplanes the past two weeks? I wouldn't even consider
> replacing the alternator until ANALYSIS and real measurements
> prove the machine to be too small.
>
>
Yes. One was done. I don't have the data handy. That is how I knew it would
be "close" but "OK" even with my "too much stuff on" scenario.
The biggest surprise here (and I should have though of it) is that at the
lower RPM, the output of the alternator (at least in THIS CASE) is
SIGNIFICANTLY impaired.
If it were delivering anyhwhere near 35 amps, all would be fine.
[Actually all is close to fine now ... long as we don't leave too much on
while at low idle *AND* we ignore the bright red LOW VOLTAGE light :-) ]
{SNIP}
>
> That data is usually available from manufacturers but by and large,
> every automotive alternator I've worked with needs something on the
> order of 4,000 to 5,000 rpm for full rated output. Here's a very
In the case of the B&C L40, what would I typically divide this RPM by to
compensate for the pulley diameter of 2.74" when used on a standard Lycoming
O-320??
> typical automotive alternator performance curve:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/80A_OutCurve.gif
>
> This particular machine is rated at 80A full output but if
> you just cut all the numbers on the y-axis in half, it would
> pretty accurately depict a 40A machine too.
Using this curve, the 35A from Van's would be producing about 12 amps at
1000 RPM. That would be consistent with the situation I am experiencing.
Thanks!
James
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Gear Warning Tone Generator |
Bob,
Instead of a tone generator, how hard is it to wire up a radio shack voice
chip recording to act as a voice annunciator?
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio/Intercom Noise |
>
>
>William Yamokoski wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Folks, Still digging around trying to get at the root of my radio
> noise.
> > I was finally able to hear what my radio sounds like....The headset mike
> > (brand new Lightspeed 20XL) seems to pick up every ambient noise within 10
> > feet of the airplane. I could hear the engine growling away quite
> > clearly....not electrical noise, the engine itself. A perusal
> through the
> > archives showed Bob's opinion that the mike itself could be the
> problem, some
> > being much better than others at dealing with ambient noise. Have any of
> > you Lightspeed owners had a mike problem? One lister mentioned the
> > possibility of adjusting the mike gain at the headset. I'm not sure how
> > that can be done. I've got the MicroAir 760 and Flightcom 430
> intercom. I
> > want to satisfy myself that the mike itself is not the problem before
> > tackling the radio mike gain. Thanks for any thoughts on this. Bill
> > Yamokoski
> >
> >
>Try calling Lightspeed & asking how to adjust the mic gain. There's a
>small hole
>in the mic element itself. Lightspeed can tell you what kind of tool to use
>(IIRC, a flat blade jeweler's screwdriver).
>
>Also, some comms have a mic gain adjustment. Does the MicroAir? Does the
>intercom sound ok between the two headsets while flying?
Keep in mind that adjusting any kind of gain potentiometer
has a uniform effect on ALL signals coming from the microphone.
If background noise is a problem due to high gain, then your
voice signal would be a problem too . . . you would get clipping
of voice peaks because you are trying to modulate your transmitter
beyond its 100% maximum.
Noise cancelling microphones have a mechanical feature that
increases the ratio between close proximity sounds (voice)
as opposed to far field sounds (noise). Various brands of
microphone can vary quite a bit between the best I've ever
seen (military helicopter headsets) and some of the worst
(a $60 Telex headset I tested about 20 years ago).
If you have a background noise problem -AND- voice levels
as heard by others over your comm transmitter are not
distorted, then adjusting gain isn't going to help. As you
set your gain down, they turn their volume up and the
net change is zero.
If you don't have access to an avionics test set that
reads and displays modulation percentage from your
ship's transmitters, then a critical ear is needed. This
probably won't be possessed by another pilot that has
not also worked for some time with voice communications
equipment. As a ham radio operator mucho years ago, I
acquired the critical ear that was most useful in the
two-way radio business later. The modulation meter is
the BEST way to deduce the cause and solution but if
all you've got available is good ears, that will
help out a lot.
Make a patch cord to take the headset output from a
hand held to the input of a tape recorder. Set the
receiver/recorder up 100 yards away from your airplane
and then make some test transmissions to it on an unused
frequency and then turn the radio to a locally used
frequency without changing any gain settings on the
recorder . . . see how your signal sounds compared
to others with respect to gross volume, background
noise to voice ratio and listen for clipping and
distortion on voice peaks.
You need to do this before whipping out the
screwdriver.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams |
>
>Short of buying a CAD program costing hundreds of dollars, is there some
>fairly straight forward way of using a Macintosh computer to modify the
>wiring diagrams posted on Bob's site?
>
>Jack H.
Why hundreds of dollars? My $10 CD has three CAD programs on it
that will modify, save and print the drawings.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator output and the "E"-bus |
>
>I don't want to put words in your mouth, Bob, but I'd like to
>reiterate own thing that your design methodology implies. If
>the alternator craps out, you should shed load from the battery
>(or whatever other backup sources - either manually or automatically)
>such that you can continue the flight to the end of the fuel endurance
>with enough electricals to make aviating, navigating and communicating
>possible. And, you should have enough at the end to turn on some more
>lights and radios for the last few minutes of flight spent in the
>terminal environment.
>
>At night, make for darned sure the landing light is off, turn off the
>nav lights, strobes, non-essential com/nav radios, extra cabin lights,
>and other power draws. Or, budget them in as required, and buy (and
>haul around) bigger batteries in order to operate the equipment that you
>want to have available.
>
>Matt Prather
>N34RD
Yea verily you have seen the light.
That's what the e-bus is really all about. I've decided
to push a new nomenclature for this bus. We started
out 12 years ago calling it the essential bus and then
explained how one might develop their own list of "essentials"
with the notion that the goal is to run things
truly necessary for an EN ROUTE phase of flight while maintaining
good stewardship on consumption of a limited commodity . . .
watt-seconds of energy in the battery.
If we do this well, then there will be enough snort left in the
battery to run other things after the airport is in sight but
IF THERE ISN'T, IT WON'T MATTER. If a controlled field (and
shame on you if you don't have a hand held) then don't bring
the main bus back up until you are cleared to land.
That way, the battery can't support the approach to landing
loads for 3-4 minutes, it's no big deal.
Too many other airplanes have what has been called "essential
busses" with wildly variable notions of what's essential.
I still cringe when folks write to ask if the e-bus normal
feed diode can handle 12-20 amps!
Dee and I had dinner with Norm Howell last night and enjoyed
a nice evening of airplane-speak with an emphasis on human
factors in cockpit layout and selection of equipment. Norm's
putting the "all-electric airplane on a budget" in his
Berkut. I noted the fact that Figure Z-13 was really easy
to expand up to a higher level of en route loads by simply
upsizing the alternator to a 20A machine.
Almost simultaneously, we both spoke to the silliness of
that notion . . . if you can't keep your airplane comfortably
en route on an 8A power budget, you've got way too much stuff
in your airplane!
Soooo . . . maybe it will help if we dump the word "essential"
and substitute the word "endurance" . . . perhaps that will
help enforce the idea behind this feature by divorcing our
conversation from the ages-old discussions and government
mandates about what is and is not essential.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator output |
> > Have you done a real load analysis like we've been discussing
> > on several airplanes the past two weeks? I wouldn't even consider
> > replacing the alternator until ANALYSIS and real measurements
> > prove the machine to be too small.
> >
> >
>
>Yes. One was done. I don't have the data handy. That is how I knew it would
>be "close" but "OK" even with my "too much stuff on" scenario.
>
>The biggest surprise here (and I should have though of it) is that at the
>lower RPM, the output of the alternator (at least in THIS CASE) is
>SIGNIFICANTLY impaired.
>
>If it were delivering anyhwhere near 35 amps, all would be fine.
>[Actually all is close to fine now ... long as we don't leave too much on
>while at low idle *AND* we ignore the bright red LOW VOLTAGE light :-) ]
>
>
>{SNIP}
>
>
> >
> > That data is usually available from manufacturers but by and large,
> > every automotive alternator I've worked with needs something on the
> > order of 4,000 to 5,000 rpm for full rated output. Here's a very
>
>In the case of the B&C L40, what would I typically divide this RPM by to
>compensate for the pulley diameter of 2.74" when used on a standard Lycoming
>O-320??
>
>
> > typical automotive alternator performance curve:
> >
> > http://216.55.140.222/temp/80A_OutCurve.gif
> >
> > This particular machine is rated at 80A full output but if
> > you just cut all the numbers on the y-axis in half, it would
> > pretty accurately depict a 40A machine too.
>
>
>Using this curve, the 35A from Van's would be producing about 12 amps at
>1000 RPM. That would be consistent with the situation I am experiencing.
>
>
>Thanks!
Lawyers and politicians have the knack of twisting the law of the
land to suit personal agendas . . . it's comforting
to know that the laws of physics are simple, understandable
and inviolate. They may disappoint you but there's no reason
to ever be blind-sided. I love this business.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Gear Warning Tone Generator |
>
>Bob,
>Instead of a tone generator, how hard is it to wire up a radio shack voice
>chip recording to act as a voice annunciator?
>John Slade
Sure. I've had several builders do this over the years. There
are chips with canned phonemes from which you can craft a
software routine to enunciate any phrase. Others as you have
noted, are recordable devices. I think there are several devices
with separate channels that can contain individual phrases like
"landing gear", "stall", "low volts" etc.
With the price of parts coming down and the capabilities going
up, there's little reason to let the cockpit of a 767 get a
leg up on your OBAM machine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Minimum crew during flyoff |
"> > From what I'm been told, the minimum crew is the > pilot, period. The
approved > use of a second person is a myth. If the FAA> > approved the 2nd
person, It > would then require this after the test period. You > would
never be able to > fly solo."
Cheers,
I think we're confusing minimum crew with 'maximum'. The Al
Qaeda attack in Yemen lends credence to my point.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Today's puzzler (Radio Noise) |
Hi Bob,
Thanks very much to you and everyone else for your thoughts on this noise issue.
I now have some avenues of investigation I hadn't thought of and never
would have thought of! I did find the Lightspeed mic gain. It's on the back
of the mic, oddly enough labeled "gain." It's the tiniest phillips screw I've
ever seen. It's very easy to fiddle with.
Here's today's question. With engine OFF and radio on, I noticed the following.
With the Main Master only on, pushing the PTT switch for the radio gives
me continuous popping sound in the headset. Adding the Aux Master makes
the sound disappear. With both masters off and the E-bus Alternate Feed on....no
sound. This sounds like the same sort of voltage thing I wrote about earlier
with the OFF flag on my electric artificial horizon. Am I on the right
track here? Does this involve the diode that connects main and essential busses?
How about the sound itself?
These electrons sure are fun. Thanks again for the help.
Bill Yamokoski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ed's Lancair System planning |
>
>Bob:
>
> Have you had the chance to look at my second pass in relation to the
>Z14 plan?
>
>Regards,
>
>Ed
Sorry Ed. Got a rush of business at RAC and some other things and
had to set the Wirebook 101 class aside for a couple of days.
I've looked at yours and one other offering from Jim Pack.
I'm planning responses to both of these packages but it will
probably be on the weekend.
This is exciting work. You guys are doing a good job on these
studies and planning . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Raby" <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com> |
| Subject: | wiring harness workmanship standards |
Hi everyone
I just joined the list and noticed that there is very little talk about workmanship.
I am in the business of building wiring harnesses (I am not trying to solicit work)
During my visit to sun and fun I stopped at some of the professional panel builders
booths and inspected some of the crimping and soldering. Some of the workmanship
was great, But I did notice some bad crimps and poor soldering.
Below is a link to a workmanship standard that I highly recommend to everyone.
I would bet that more panel problems are related to workmanship than equipment
failures.
Ron Raby
N829R
http://www.whma.org/standards.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder Recommendations |
>
>Not sure if this falls under the list's subject matter but here goes...
>
>I've got a C150 with a older and getting progressively flakier RT359A
>transponder. I've kind of made up my mind to replace it rather than throw
>more money at keeping it alive a little longer. The Garmin GTX320A looks
>like the clear favorite to me. Fully solid state, and reasonably priced.
>It look like everything else out there is still tube based but really not
>any cheaper. Everybody seems to advertise the 320 for $1249. Anybody
>gotten any better prices?
>
>I'm an EE, Ham Radio, General Radio Telepone license type guy and have a
>cooperative A&P who will work with me. We're not completely sure an A&P
>can sign off the install although it looks that way. Still would need to
>follow that up with a certification by a radio shop before using it, but I
>don't believe the install needs to be certified. Can anybody answer this?
>
>Regards,
>Dave Lundquist
>lundquist(at)ieee.org
Picking a transponder is pretty much like picking tires.
They all do about the same thing with some offering
the equivalent of "raised white letters" by sticking
in some nifty feature.
One feature VERY MUCH worth looking for is a altitude
readout on the display that tells you what the transponder
THINKS the encoder is telling it to do. This feature
lets you spot an encoder/transponder interface problem
before it precipitates an embarrassing episode with ATC.
I'd suggest yout add the T2000 Micorair to your list
of considered products. It has a number of "raised
white letters" you may find attractive.
See:
http://www.microair.com.au/index.asp?page=127&mid=5&productRedirect=tech&productID=26
and
http://216.55.140.222/temp/OM_T2000.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wiring harness workmanship standards |
Ron,
Apart from buying a CD for $135 or the book for $90 I didn't see a "wiring
for dummies" section on the site. Based on your experience what would you
say are the top few mistakes that we home-builders make when constructing a
harness. I think we all do our best but for many, including me in a year or
two when I start the electrical system, building a harness is something
we'll only do once in our lives.
Any tips much appreciated
Thanks,
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization and availability |
>
> I don't recommend that the ABMM be used as the only
> means for getting the aux battery contactor closed. ALL
> of our suggested wiring diagrams suggest a three-position,
> aux battery master switch. Bottom position is OFF, mid position
> is AUTO, full up position bypasses the ABMM and turns the
> aux battery master contactor ON. This allows using both
> batteries for cranking. It also allows for manual connection
> of the battery to the ship's system even if the alternator
> is off line. This makes BOTH batteries available at pilot
> discretion to ALL ship's accessories whether or not the
> alternator is working.
>
> I'm putting the first production batch of ABMM's together
> now. They might be finished this evening . . . tomorrow
> at the latest. I'll get them up on the website as soon
> as the solder cools.
>
> Bob . . .
Hi Bob,
Our intention was to have the aux battery switch remote from the panel. Thus
the only departure from a conventional panel would be the presence of the
E-bus switch.
Your opinion ?
thanks,
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wiring harness workmanship standards |
>
>Ron,
>
>Apart from buying a CD for $135 or the book for $90 I didn't see a "wiring
>for dummies" section on the site. Based on your experience what would you
>say are the top few mistakes that we home-builders make when constructing a
>harness. I think we all do our best but for many, including me in a year or
>two when I start the electrical system, building a harness is something
>we'll only do once in our lives.
>
>Any tips much appreciated
>
>Thanks,
>
>Tony
We have IPC documents in our libraries at RAC . . . all are very
nicely done with GOOD close up color photos of the subject material.
Perhaps several builders could go together and buy the book
to share amongst themselves.
I was approached by EAA to consider participation in their
hands-on, weekend workshops. These are an outgrowth of the
course work started by Ron Alexander some years ago. I've looked
over their course materials and the business model on which the
courses are offered. I've about decided that the AeroElectric
Connection can do a better job running this kind of course
barefoot than to hook onto EAA's coat tails.
Talked briefly with Norm Howell about this last night. We
may use his Berkut project as a test bed for developing some
wiring techniques that can be photographed as he goes along
to generate documents for the Connection's hands-on workshops.
This isn't going to happen next week or even next month . . .
but it DOES fit nicely into our mission and is a logical
expansion of our educational activities. I'm 90%
sure it's going to happen.
These will be two day workshops that will include
some classroom work but very much scaled down compared
to the current weekend seminar curriculum. Most
of the activities will concentrate on the use of
a complete kit of tools (provided as part of the
course cost . . . you'll take them home with you)
and the construction of some real electrical and
electronics harnesses . . .
By the way, many of you have noted that Dee has only been
an occasional player in the Connection's activities
for the past several years. Her decision to take on
graduate studies at WSU had a strong influence on the
decision to move our tools and materials business up to
B&C a couple of years ago.
Dee's rubber band has been wound pretty tight this
semester . . . every Phd candidate has to run a course
called "qualification exams" . . . two days
sitting at a word processor writing essay answers to
questions posed by her professors.
I am pleased to announce that she ran the gauntlet
yesterday. At the end of this semester, she
will be finished with all course-work associated
with her sought after degree. With successful completion
of 'quals' she'll be set to offer a dissertation topic
and launch into the final task . . . write a book.
She's looking forward to spending more time in the
near future with our aviation business activities. While
not exactly her professional cup of tea, she enjoys
putting things together, talking with customers on the
phone and assisting with seminar and fly-in activities.
It's quite probable that she will join me in the
hands-on workshops offerings (she used to build wire
bundles at RAC . . . she has put more wires together than
I have!)
Neat things are coming over the horizon.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Raby" <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wiring harness workmanship standards |
Tony
The top mistakes I see are:
1. wrong tooling for crimps. (I have seen ring lungs crimped with vice
grips)
2. improper sevice loops and harness support.
3. nicking of strands when stripping
4. wrong strip length for the terminal being used
5. the crimp just not made properly even with the right tooling.
6. bad solder joints.
7. sloppy harness routing and combing out of the wires.
I would recomend that a sample of each type of crimp that you need to do be
made and a pull test be done. It does not have to be done with an expensive
pull tester it can be done with something like a fish scale. Even though a
crimp may look good it may fail with a very small amount of force applied. I
do have a chart for min pull force required if you would like it. Once your
sure that the tooling and operator are making good crimps then do the real
ones.
Make all of your crimps first before inserting the pins into the connector
and do a visual inspection of all the crimps. Use magnification if needed.
after the pins are inserted into the connector check to see if they are
inserted all the way and locked in. I have seen hundreds of pins not
inserted all the way.
If possible make a harness board and build the harness off the panel. This
makes it easier to inspect and if you had to make another one it would look
the same. This would be a good idea for a group of builders making simaler
panels or plane harnesses. See my web site for examples of harnesses
www.advanceddesign.com
Ron Raby
N829R
--- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wiring harness workmanship standards
>
> Ron,
>
> Apart from buying a CD for $135 or the book for $90 I didn't see a "wiring
> for dummies" section on the site. Based on your experience what would you
> say are the top few mistakes that we home-builders make when constructing
a
> harness. I think we all do our best but for many, including me in a year
or
> two when I start the electrical system, building a harness is something
> we'll only do once in our lives.
>
> Any tips much appreciated
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tony
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization and availability |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> >
> > I don't recommend that the ABMM be used as the only
> > means for getting the aux battery contactor closed. ALL
> > of our suggested wiring diagrams suggest a three-position,
> > aux battery master switch. Bottom position is OFF, mid position
> > is AUTO, full up position bypasses the ABMM and turns the
> > aux battery master contactor ON. This allows using both
> > batteries for cranking. It also allows for manual connection
> > of the battery to the ship's system even if the alternator
> > is off line. This makes BOTH batteries available at pilot
> > discretion to ALL ship's accessories whether or not the
> > alternator is working.
> >
> > I'm putting the first production batch of ABMM's together
> > now. They might be finished this evening . . . tomorrow
> > at the latest. I'll get them up on the website as soon
> > as the solder cools.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Our intention was to have the aux battery switch remote from the panel. Thus
>the only departure from a conventional panel would be the presence of the
>E-bus switch.
>Your opinion ?
Why? When you have some new, useful feature that improves on
the pilot's odds of dealing successfully with an unexpected
situation, why hide that feature away somewhere?
When LORAN receivers from boats were first bolted in airplanes,
we had a new, super precise tool with which to aviate that
made a BIG change in the appearance of the instrument panel.
Almost 20 years later, LORAN is falling behind to be replaced
by GPS with still more capabilities.
Both changes to the cockpit demanded that the pilot sit up,
pay attention and learn to deal with some new things in order
to take advantage of the technology.
Yes, other pilots less aware of where aviation is going will
look at this strange new switch and some may wonder why you're
messing around with something that has "worked just fine for
a long time." If you truly believe that addition of the switch
is a good thing to do, then put it right out where everybody
will see it and then be prepared to defend your position.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator Output |
| From: | Gary Graham <beeb(at)teleport.com> |
Limited output from the Van's supplied 35 amp kit.
Do you have anodized mounting hardware ? (at one time this was supplied in
the kit and it may not have changed)
From a previous post I sent explaining limited output from a known good
alternator:
1. The mounting bracket is anodized (Blue on this one) and is a near perfect
insulator. Except for minor scratches, produced when bolting the bracket to
the engine and bolting the alternator to the bracket, it provides Zero
ground return. The frame of the alternator is the big current ground return
and Must be grounded to the engine as is the starter motor. The minor
scratches soon corrode and become insulators. I chose to run a heavy (#6)
ground strap from the frame of the alternator to the frame of the starter
using plated aviation grade connectors with 5/16ths holes clamped by the
respective pivot and mounting bolts. I could have removed the bracket and
removed an appropriate amount of anodizing from it; alodined and or coated
with silicone grease; and then remounted and safetied, but the ground strap
was easier and a more resilient method, in my opinion.
Hope this is a clue to the problem,
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Today's puzzler (Radio Noise) |
>
>
> Here's today's question. With engine OFF and radio on, I noticed
> the following. With the Main Master only on, pushing the PTT switch for
> the radio gives me continuous popping sound in the headset.
Does your radio's transmit light flash in sync
with the popping?
> Adding the Aux Master makes the sound disappear. With both masters
> off and the E-bus Alternate Feed on....no sound. This sounds like the
> same sort of voltage thing I wrote about earlier with the OFF flag on my
> electric artificial horizon. Am I on the right track here? Does this
> involve the diode that connects main and essential busses?
It could . . .
> How about the sound itself?
When you hit PTT, current draw from by the transceiver
takes a BIG jump. If the increase results in extra-ordinarily
low voltage, the transmitter may be dropping out of transmit
whereupon the current draw goes away and the voltage comes
back up with the cycle repeating. What is your measured
e-bus voltage while all this is happening?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DHartley(at)aascworld.com |
| Subject: | Engine Grounding Question |
Hello, I am inquiring if anyone can recommend a suitable ground strap
location for my aircraft engine. I have seen recommendations against using
the engine mounting bolts. Is a stud to the engine case suitable? I have an
unused accessory pad cover (Lycoming IO 360) with 4 studs that are
conveniently located where they would attach with a short ground strap to my
firewall single point grounding bolt. Any suggestions? Thank you.
David L. Hartley
dhartley(at)aascworld.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wiring harness workmanship standards |
Bob wrote:
------snip-----------
> I was approached by EAA to consider participation in their
> hands-on, weekend workshops. These are an outgrowth of the
> course work started by Ron Alexander some years ago. I've looked
> over their course materials and the business model on which the
> courses are offered. I've about decided that the AeroElectric
> Connection can do a better job running this kind of course
> barefoot than to hook onto EAA's coat tails.
Bob -
Good for you for on two counts:
1) going "barefoot"
2) mentioning Ron Alexander. He's another guiding light in the OBAM
education arena and (as you) an inspiring spokesman.
The same year I met you and Dee at Livermore I went to an Alexander
SportAir workshop in Corona Calif - he spoke for three hours about
FARs, registering a homebuilt, and phase one fly-off - this alone was
worth the price of admission.
-------snip--------
> I am pleased to announce that she ran the gauntlet
> yesterday. At the end of this semester, she
> will be finished with all course-work associated
> with her sought after degree. With successful completion
> of 'quals' she'll be set to offer a dissertation topic
> and launch into the final task . . . write a book.
>
> She's looking forward to spending more time in the
> near future with our aviation business activities. While
> not exactly her professional cup of tea, she enjoys
> putting things together, talking with customers on the
> phone and assisting with seminar and fly-in activities.
> It's quite probable that she will join me in the
> hands-on workshops offerings (she used to build wire
> bundles at RAC . . . she has put more wires together than
> I have!)
>
> Neat things are coming over the horizon.
>
> Bob . . .
Congratulations to Dee.
All the best -
Bill
RANS Courier/912uls in progress
SF bay area, Calif.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization and availability |
> >Our intention was to have the aux battery switch remote from the panel.
Thus
> >the only departure from a conventional panel would be the presence of the
> >E-bus switch.
> >Your opinion ?
>
> Why? When you have some new, useful feature that improves on
> the pilot's odds of dealing successfully with an unexpected
> situation, why hide that feature away somewhere?
Well, maybe I misinterpreted older versions of a battery management module
article where there was a two-position AUTO/ON switch.
I got the notion auto was for all normal operation, and on was available in
case one would want the two batteries in parallel, for better cranking, for
instance.
So after discussing the matter, we decided to leave the panel unchanged, but
for the essential bus switch.
The auto/on switch was "elswhere", for the exclusive use of the members of
the "inner circle".
So the brieffing for our spam can pilot friends would be minimal : just two
switches to manage, master an ess-bus.
My intention was seldom to use the "on" position on the ground, and never
in flight.
It seemed in accordance with the goal of not turning the pilot into a flight
engineer.
>
........................
>
> Yes, other pilots less aware of where aviation is going will
> look at this strange new switch and some may wonder why you're
> messing around with something that has "worked just fine for
> a long time."
That's the point. People will ask why we made a "gas works" out of the rock
simple standard rotax wiring.
If you truly believe that addition of the switch
> is a good thing to do, then put it right out where everybody
> will see it and then be prepared to defend your position.
>
I'm not so keen on those long rows of switches.
I find the simpler the better. As few switches as possible, and definetely
NOT arranged in rows.
The boost pump switch is near the fuel valve and gauges on the console. The
flap switch won't be very far, but it's going to have a very different
aspect.
The master and ess-bus switches will be near the ignition switch, not to be
touched in flight except in case of emergency.
I had thought, maybe wrongly, that this aux bus switch could be remote from
the panel, since I could not find a use for it in flight.
But maybe I'm missing the obvious ?
And, ah, I don't want to defend positions on the ramp, I want to fly the
damn project, and fly and fly !
Cheers,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wiring harness workmanship standards |
> These will be two day workshops that will include
> some classroom work but very much scaled down compared
> to the current weekend seminar curriculum. Most
> of the activities will concentrate on the use of
> a complete kit of tools (provided as part of the
> course cost . . . you'll take them home with you)
> and the construction of some real electrical and
> electronics harnesses . . .
Sounds great - sign me up !!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Grounding Question |
>
>Hello, I am inquiring if anyone can recommend a suitable ground strap
>location for my aircraft engine. I have seen recommendations against using
>the engine mounting bolts. Is a stud to the engine case suitable? I have an
>unused accessory pad cover (Lycoming IO 360) with 4 studs that are
>conveniently located where they would attach with a short ground strap to my
>firewall single point grounding bolt. Any suggestions? Thank you.
What are folks using out there to find ground studs on their
engines? Got any photos we can post?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
| Subject: | Engine Grounding Question |
> >I have an unused accessory pad cover (Lycoming IO 360) with 4 studs
> >that are conveniently located where they would attach with a short
> >ground strap to my firewall single point grounding bolt. Any
> >suggestions? Thank you.
>
> What are folks using out there to find ground studs on their
> engines? Got any photos we can post?
>
Some O360's, including mine, have a hole through the casting right
behind the oil filler tube socket. This hole serves no purpose other
than grounding, near as I can tell. I have no pictures, however.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 222 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Your Weekend Seminars |
I noticed that you will be presenting one of your weekend seminars in
Nashville this February. I was thinking about attending as a way of
solidifying what I've been reading on this list, your website, and your
book. One question I has is whether the weekend seminar a hands-on session
where techniques are actually demonstrated, or is it more of a classroom
presentation of the book?
Dan O'Brien
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Grounding Question |
Alex Peterson wrote:
>
>
> > >I have an unused accessory pad cover (Lycoming IO 360) with 4 studs
> > >that are conveniently located where they would attach with a short
> > >ground strap to my firewall single point grounding bolt. Any
> > >suggestions? Thank you.
> >
> > What are folks using out there to find ground studs on their
> > engines? Got any photos we can post?
> >
>
> Some O360's, including mine, have a hole through the casting right
> behind the oil filler tube socket. This hole serves no purpose other
> than grounding, near as I can tell. I have no pictures, however.
>
> Alex Peterson
> Maple Grove, MN
> RV6-A N66AP 222 hours
> www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
Same with my O-320 E2D.
Sam Buchanan (RV-6)
"The RV Journal" http://thervjournal.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Main fuel pump warning light |
Since I'll have two B&C regulators on my Super ES, I plan to put the low
voltage lights that come with them on my panel. I've decided to add a few
other lights next to these, since the panel space is available. These will
annunciate whether the boost pump is on, whether the cross feed is open,
and low fuel pressure. I know how to wire the first four
lights. Question: How does one construct a fuel pressure warning
light? If it makes a difference, I will have a VM-1000, which also flashes
low fuel pressure. However, I've decided that I want a red fuel pressure
warning light that is up high in the middle of my scan.
Thanks,
Dan O'Brien
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Grounding Question |
David:
I will be grounding my O-235 to an RV-9A in a couple of weeks. I currently
plan to attach the engine ground cable to an accessory case bolt on the left
side. I will use a bolt that goes all the way through the case (has a nut
and washer) so as to not strip any threads on the expensive part. This
means that I will have to replace it with a bolt that is 1/8" or so longer.
Personally, I wouldn't use the engine mount bolt - although it's use is well
documented. This is a task where you can achieve a no-fail ground.
Anything less is unacceptable.
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 85% Complete
> I am inquiring if anyone can recommend a suitable ground strap
> location for my aircraft engine. I have seen recommendations against using
> the engine mounting bolts. Is a stud to the engine case suitable? I have
an
> unused accessory pad cover (Lycoming IO 360) with 4 studs that are
> conveniently located where they would attach with a short ground strap to
my
> firewall single point grounding bolt. Any suggestions? Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Grounding Question |
In a message dated 11/6/02 9:13:41 PM Central Standard Time,
ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca writes:
> Personally, I wouldn't use the engine mount bolt - although it's use is well
> documented.
Good Evening Ernest,
Just curiosity, why would you not use an engine mount bolt to ground the
engine?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis, CMDR David" <David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au> |
| Subject: | SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - MULTIMETER TUTORIAL |
Bob, and other experts,
Following recent discussions on LED lighting, dimmers, and breadboarding,
last weekend I designed and breadboarded a LED circuit with zener dimming.
It worked first time. This amazing achievement lead to delusions of
electrical adequacy. I went out and bought a clever digital multimeter in
order to conform my component selections by measurement.
In a flash of brilliance I read the instructions before using it. The one
page manual was written in Taiwanglish, so it was amusing and ambiguous. So
I set to work. At the third prod of the probe ZAP - a flash and a pile of
ash. Hmmm, the meter has been confused ever since and probably needs a new
fuse. I have no idea what I did wrong, but was trying to measure amperage
going through a LED.
Bob, would you be able to write us a short idiots guide to how to use a
digital multimeter, covering things like when to have power on a circuit
under test, and when not to. Any precautions about changing modes on the
multimeter, and how to measure volts, amps and ohms across a component. And
where not to put a probe.
Bob, I appreciated your rules of thumb about wiring published last week, its
been printed and is in my workshop folder of handy info of wire selection
data, drill size equivalents, rivet spacing rules, nut torque values etc.
I value your wisdom,
David Francis, VH-ZEE, Canberra, Australia
Email: David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis, CMDR David" <David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au> |
| Subject: | SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - A LOAD ANALYSIS |
Listers,
Below is my load analysis for a IFR RV7 that will have a Jabiru 200hp engine
which comes with a flywheel alternator outputting 20amps, plus a 40amp belt
driven alternator. Z14 is the intended layout. The analysis gave me some
surprises and forced some major system design changes.
Night circuits are demanding, and landing/taxi lights need to be cycled
during prolonged touch and go sessions. In Australia pitot heat is routinely
on at night because you cant see the clouds.
Z14 works well for a system with two equal sized alternators, but less well
with a baby alternator as auxiliary unit. If the main alternator fails then
the crossfeed and load shedding switchery becomes quite complex. Since Sods
Law sez that failures only occur at night, in cloud, on descent, then
simplification is wise. So I introduced a subsidiary non-essential bus
coming off the Aux bus, and controlled by a single load shed switch.
The resulting checklists are below the table. Hope this helps someone. For
info the GPS, comm and nav radios are integral to the EFIS.
Regards, David Francis, Canberra, Australia
VH-ZEE ELECTRICAL LOAD Italics = Estimate, no entry
= don't know or intermittent
Z14
Item Value Preflight Taxi Nt Circuits Cruise
Mn Alt Out
Aux Alt Out
Main Batt Contactor 1 1 1 1 1 1
1
X Feed Contactor 1 1 1
Main Alt Field 3.9 3.9 3.9 3.9
3.9
EFIS 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
EFIS 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
Trim
Flaps
Map Lt 1
Pitot Ht 8 8 8 8 8 8
CS Prop 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Autopilot 3.6 3.6 3.6 3.6
Txpdr 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5
0.5
Encoder 0.57 0.57 0.57 0.57 0.57 0.57
0.57
Starter
ADF
Bcn/Strobe Pwr 8.5 8.5 8.5 8.5 8.5
0
Subtotal 32.07 21.57 19.47 27.47 31.07
19.67 23.57
% load 40A 54% 49% 69% 78% 49%
59%
Aux Pwr Bus
Item Value Preflight Taxi Nt Circuits Cruise
Main Alt Out
Aux Alt Out
Aux Batt Contactor 1 1 1 1 1 1
1
Aux Alt Field 0 0 0 0 0
Load Shed 0
Non-essential Bus
Inst Lt
Nav Lts 6 6 6 6 6 6
Bcn/Strobe Control 1 1 1 1 1
1
Taxi Lt 4.5 4.5 4.5 4.5
Ldg Lt 4.5 4.5 4.5
Flap Indicator 0.15 0.15 0.15 0.15 0.15
0.15
Trim Indicator 0.15 0.15 0.15 0.15 0.15
0.15
Fuel Gauges
Fuel Pump 1 1
Demist Fans
Mp Lt2
Subtotal 18.3 17.3 12.8 18.3 8.3 1
8.3
% Load 20A 87% 64% 92% 42%
Total 50.37 38.87 32.27 45.77 39.37 20.67
31.87
Aux Alt 103% 80%
Less A/P 85%
LessPitot 63%
Procedures
Main Alt Out Aux Alt Out
Main Alt OFF Aux Alt OFF
X Feed ON X Feed ON
Load Shed-N Ess OFF Bcn/Strobe OFF
Shed Pitot Ht
Email: David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Measuring temperatures during fly-off |
I'm planning to mount my video camera near my head pointed at inst panel to
catch as many instrument readings as the lens will permit - haven't checked
field of view, yet, but fear it won't be much at that distance. If I could
find a semi-fisheye lens . . . .
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Mills" <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Measuring temperatures during fly-off
>
> >Perhaps a tape recorder would work instead of pen & paper. Then
transcribe
> >it when you get on the ground.
> >
> >- Jim
>
> That's a good idea.
>
> Ed Kolano described this in his flight test techniques class:
> Put the small microphone from your cassete recorder in your headset
> earpiece. Use the voice activated intercom to record your
> observations as you fly along talking to yourself.
> He also suggests providing your ground/air crew with a duplicate
> check list of the items you want to explore during that particular
> flight. This way (if your hands are full) you won't have to read your
> checklist - they can read it to you over the air-to-air frequency.
>
> Bill Mills
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Your Weekend Seminars |
>
>I noticed that you will be presenting one of your weekend seminars in
>Nashville this February. I was thinking about attending as a way of
>solidifying what I've been reading on this list, your website, and your
>book. One question I has is whether the weekend seminar a hands-on session
>where techniques are actually demonstrated, or is it more of a classroom
>presentation of the book?
>
>Dan O'Brien
>Lancair Super ES
The Nashville program is the technical session as described
in http://www.aeroelectric.com/seminars/seminars.html
There will be some tools to look at and try out but the
emphasis of this course is on matters of parts selection
and system architecture.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hammer-n-Tongs seminars |
>
>
> > These will be two day workshops that will include
> > some classroom work but very much scaled down compared
> > to the current weekend seminar curriculum. Most
> > of the activities will concentrate on the use of
> > a complete kit of tools (provided as part of the
> > course cost . . . you'll take them home with you)
> > and the construction of some real electrical and
> > electronics harnesses . . .
>
>Sounds great - sign me up !!
It will be late next year at the earliest we can offer
this program. It's a brand new curriculum and will take
some time to develop. This will probably be the first
program we'll offer where the presentation document
is done totally in PowerPoint so that attendees can
take the pictures and text home with them on a CD.
I'm also figuring out a way to mock-up major
portions of an instrument panel in a way that we
can easily transport in checked baggage.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MULTIMETER TUTORIAL |
>
>
>Bob, and other experts,
>
>Following recent discussions on LED lighting, dimmers, and breadboarding,
>last weekend I designed and breadboarded a LED circuit with zener dimming.
>It worked first time. This amazing achievement lead to delusions of
>electrical adequacy. I went out and bought a clever digital multimeter in
>order to conform my component selections by measurement.
>
>In a flash of brilliance I read the instructions before using it. The one
>page manual was written in Taiwanglish, so it was amusing and ambiguous. So
>I set to work. At the third prod of the probe ZAP - a flash and a pile of
>ash. Hmmm, the meter has been confused ever since and probably needs a new
>fuse. I have no idea what I did wrong, but was trying to measure amperage
>going through a LED.
>
>Bob, would you be able to write us a short idiots guide to how to use a
>digital multimeter, covering things like when to have power on a circuit
>under test, and when not to. Any precautions about changing modes on the
>multimeter, and how to measure volts, amps and ohms across a component. And
>where not to put a probe.
Good idea. I'll consider that as a good topic for either an article
or a new chapter to the book. In the mean time, take a look at these
links I found on the 'net.
http://www.kaitousa.com/usingamultimeter.htm
http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/electricity2.htm
http://mechatronics.mech.nwu.edu/mechatronics/design_ref/tools/multimeter.html
The most common error . . . and possibly what happened to your
meter . . . is putting voltage into the probes of an instrument
set up to measure current. Depending on the current capabilities
of the voltage source, you might get a really BIG current flow
that in the old days, toasted your multimeter (I've done this
several times in my younger days). Nowadays, modern instruments
are protected with fuses so the risks are less.
I use so many different models that I try to check twice where
the range switch is set before hooking things up to make sure
that habits acquired with one instrument don't become a hazard
to other instruments.
>Bob, I appreciated your rules of thumb about wiring published last week, its
>been printed and is in my workshop folder of handy info of wire selection
>data, drill size equivalents, rivet spacing rules, nut torque values etc.
I've looked over that list since I first published it and
have plans for expanding and refining it.
>I value your wisdom,
Thank you. I value your confidence. I'll try to be worthy
of it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walter S. Fellows" <fellowsw(at)mondexkorea.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Simple Light Dimmer? - .pdf download problem |
Thanks Bob -- in my case it said the file contained illegal characters.
I have never had a problem with any of your posts in the past.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Simple Light Dimmer? - .pdf download
problem
>
>
>I was unable to open the second set pdf file.
Some folk's browser/acrobat setup has a problem with slow
downloads causing acrobat to appear to load the document
but shows only blank page(s) on the screen.
Try right-clicking any troublesome link to a .pdf
file and tell your browser were to store the file
on your hard drive. When the download is completed,
then use acrobat to open the file.
Bob . . .
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 36 Msgs - 11/06/02 |
| From: | Jack Haviland <jgh(at)iavbbs.com> |
> My $10 CD has three CAD programs on it that will modify, save and print the
drawings.
Thanks Bob. Will any (or all) of these programs run on a Macintosh?
Jack H.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | MULTIMETER TUTORIAL |
Thanks for the multimeter links Bob. I may use some of it in
preparation for a gig I'm doing later this month in Birmingham. I'm
supposed to talk for about an hour on how alternators and voltage
regulators work, and how to troubleshoot them. The audience is IA's who
are taking some required continuing education to maintain their IA. Any
ideas on what an IA's level of understanding is and what the most
appropriate course material would be?
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>
> Good idea. I'll consider that as a good topic for either an article
> or a new chapter to the book. In the mean time, take a look at
these
> links I found on the 'net.
>
> http://www.kaitousa.com/usingamultimeter.htm
> http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/electricity2.htm
>
>
http://mechatronics.mech.nwu.edu/mechatronics/design_ref/tools/multimete
r.
> html
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wirebook support on a Mac |
>
> > My $10 CD has three CAD programs on it that will modify, save and print the
>drawings.
>
>Thanks Bob. Will any (or all) of these programs run on a Macintosh?
Sorry, no. They will run in the most rudimentary versions of
Windows. Suggest you acquire an MS-Dos machine for the purpose
of crafting and maintaining your wirebook. It can be a
garage-sale fugitive even. There's a store here in town that
could fix you up with a Win95 machine quite adequate to the
task for $50.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Simple Light Dimmer? - .pdf download problem |
>
>
>Thanks Bob -- in my case it said the file contained illegal characters.
>I have never had a problem with any of your posts in the past.
Hmmm . . what version of Acrobat Reader do you have?
My .pdf files are assembled with Acrobat 5.0 which
might cause older versions of Reader to barf.
You can get the latest Acrobat Reader at
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization and availability |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>
> > >Our intention was to have the aux battery switch remote from the panel.
>Thus
> > >the only departure from a conventional panel would be the presence of the
> > >E-bus switch.
> > >Your opinion ?
> >
> > Why? When you have some new, useful feature that improves on
> > the pilot's odds of dealing successfully with an unexpected
> > situation, why hide that feature away somewhere?
>
>Well, maybe I misinterpreted older versions of a battery management module
>article where there was a two-position AUTO/ON switch.
>I got the notion auto was for all normal operation, and on was available in
>case one would want the two batteries in parallel, for better cranking, for
>instance.
The drawing package that goes with the ABMM is at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
>So after discussing the matter, we decided to leave the panel unchanged, but
>for the essential bus switch.
>The auto/on switch was "elswhere", for the exclusive use of the members of
>the "inner circle".
You'll note that the drawings suggest an aux battery contactor
indicator light. If you have anything that is carried out automatically,
how do you KNOW the automatic function is or is not functioning? At least
with a totally manual aux battery contactor, you can usually hear
a "clunk" when the switch is thrown and if normal ops call for the
contactor to be ON all the time for cranking and flight, then the
totally manual system pre-flight checks the contactor when you flip
the switch.
Now, if you have an automatic function, what do you propose for
notifying the pilot that the automatic function has become
non-matic? If you add the light on the panel, how will you explain
the meaning of this light and what to do if it's not lit?
>So the brieffing for our spam can pilot friends would be minimal : just two
>switches to manage, master an ess-bus.
>My intention was seldom to use the "on" position on the ground, and never
>in flight.
>It seemed in accordance with the goal of not turning the pilot into a flight
>engineer.
I agree that the system should be as simple as practical.
However, I object to the notion that anyone flying an airplane
should not be trained to take advantage of all
features we've deemed necessary for comfortable
completion of flight under ANTICIPATED adverse conditions
that drove the system design.
If pilots you plan to share your airplane with are
somehow challenged by the notion that dual batteries
are considered necessary and further challenged by
instruction system operation, are you sure you want
to let them fly your airplane?
If maximum simplicity is your goal, leave out the
automatic contactor control wiring and indicator light.
Say, "if this light comes on, this switch goes up,
those two switches go down and you get your bunnies
on the ground ASAP." This kind of instruction is
fully sanctioned by those in Washington who claim
to know more about airplanes than we do.
But if your guest pilots wish to take full
advantage of the system's capabilities, then you have
a DUTY to educated them in its features and use.
I think it's riskier to have a pilot experience a
problem and discover after the fact that there was
an operational feature NOT made known to him . . .
or worse yet, his widow finds out. It wouldn't matter
a whit if that knowledge would have made any difference
in the outcome of the flight.
Worked a King-Air accident about 15 years ago where
the plaintiff charged that persistent problems with
a low-pitch stop warning light system on a propeller
HID the fact that a prop went into reverse pitch and
caused a crash. Yes, the warning system DID have
design and manufacturing problems. Yes the airplane
DID hit the ground in a manner that suggested to
the unobserving eye that the airplane was in a hard
left spiral turn. But additional facts brought to light
by careful analysis of other data showed that while
the light had problems in the past, the airplane
DID NOT come down as a result of a reversed prop.
The fact that the light was a high maintenance
problem in the past was not germane to discussions
about this incident. None the less, the story sold well
with the jury until a concise and clear explanation
of ALL facts was offered and convinced them otherwise.
Chances are very low that your proposed architecture
and instructions to guest pilots would ever become
a problem. This is more an issue of how I
believe operators of any hazardous machine
should approach their task. I know that if I became
aware of "hidden" features in a machine entrusted
to me, (whether or not the knowledge had any effect
on past experiences) I'd probably have a wealth
of un-kind words with which to describe my opinion
of his behavior.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: - A LOAD ANALYSIS |
>
>
>
>Listers,
>
>Below is my load analysis for a IFR RV7 that will have a Jabiru 200hp engine
>which comes with a flywheel alternator outputting 20amps, plus a 40amp belt
>driven alternator. Z14 is the intended layout. The analysis gave me some
>surprises and forced some major system design changes.
>
>Night circuits are demanding, and landing/taxi lights need to be cycled
>during prolonged touch and go sessions. In Australia pitot heat is routinely
>on at night because you cant see the clouds.
Clouds in US are pretty hard to see at night too . . . but
I don't turn on pitot heat unless temperatures are below
15C. Unless you're on an instrument approach and truly
in clouds, you don't need pitot heat and if you are
on instrument flight plan, you don't need exterior lights
under less-than-optimum power generation situations.
If 40A alternator is belted with the right pulley
ratios, why do you have to cycle any lights?
>Z14 works well for a system with two equal sized alternators, but less well
>with a baby alternator as auxiliary unit. If the main alternator fails then
>the crossfeed and load shedding switchery becomes quite complex. Since Sods
>Law sez that failures only occur at night, in cloud, on descent, then
>simplification is wise. So I introduced a subsidiary non-essential bus
>coming off the Aux bus, and controlled by a single load shed switch.
Whoa! Why has load shedding become a complex task? If the main
alternator fails, then what goodies are on your main bus that
are absolutely required to get you comfortably back on the
ground? Do you not plan to have loadmeters on your alternators?
If the main alternator is down and you decide to close the cross-feed
then you have TWO batteries buffering the urgency to shed loads.
Take a minute . . . naw, take TWO minutes to shut switches off
until the loadmeter comes off the peg and/or a low voltage light
stops flashing. If your batteries are charged when the main
alternator quits, you can count on 100% of your aux alternator
output to keep things running. 20 Amps is PLENTY.
Loss of either alternator should not create an atmosphere
of stressful decision-making. A minute or two of battery
assist while reorganizing things in the cockpit is no big
deal. This is WHY Z-14 is so useful.
>The resulting checklists are below the table. Hope this helps someone. For
>info the GPS, comm and nav radios are integral to the EFIS.
>
>Regards, David Francis, Canberra, Australia
Your columns lost their positioning in transition.
Do you have Excel on your computer? It would be much
better if you used Excel. Email the file directly to
me as an attachment and I'll post it on my server for
others to access. From what I can make out in the data
that did come across legibly, there are some gains
to be achieved in re-scheduling use of your accessories.
I don't think you're in as bad a shape as you think
you are.
Here's a link to a copy of Shannon's load analysis
to use as a template. Download this hummer and
modify to fit your situation without adding any
extra busses and let's see how the numbers
really work out.
http://216.55.140.222/temp/load_analysis.xls
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey(at)alumni.utexas.net> |
| Subject: | Radio Shack Landing Gear Voice Warning Device |
Bob,
I also saw these recordable playback devices at Radio Shack a while back and
had the same idea as John Slade had about using them for voice alerts like
we have on the Boeings. My problem was that they all seem to be a "one
touch-one playback" type of device. A device that keeps replaying the alert
while the abnormal condition exists would be much more desirable. Other
concerns were whether the audio output to the tiny onboard speaker is
compatible with the inputs to my ICS (PSE PMA4000) and the fact the voice
device is 9v (I think) and I have a 28V aircraft. Are these problems
fairly simple to overcome or should I stay the course with the simple tone
generator that you posted last week? I guarantee if I had my wife's voice
on that chip there would be *ABSOLUTELY NO WAY* I could ever possibly make a
gear up approach or landing!!!
Thanks,
Ray
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
Bob,
Below is a copy of the post that induced me in thinking we could leave the
aux master switch off the panel.
I must confess I too did not like the idea of having two master switches to
manage.
But we are stuck with our electrically DEPENDANT engine.
What would be the SIMPLEST way to retain redundancy and yet keep the panel
as simple as possible ?
Cheers,
Gilles
>
>My comment wasn't about BATTERY MASTER - OFF,
>E-BUS ALT FEED - ON. I realized that I am mixing up
>the subject here as this was the current topic (one
>switch for all). I am OK with e-bus on, master off
>(why do I prefer that sequence?) However, I am trying
>to avoid having to flip TWO master switches On or Off.
looks like the IBMM is for you . . . for most normal
operations you never have to touch the aux battery
switch. If it's a mini-aux battery used for ignition
backup only, then the aux battery switch could be left
in AUTO/OFF all the time or even deleted from the panel.
If you have a twin-aux battery useful for cranking,
then the only time you'd find it useful to turn on
the second battery manually is if you'd like to
improve cranking performance . . . but the main
battery should get the engine going just fine too.
> For most people who spend more time in rented
>aircrafts, this is not intuitive and I'm sure that if
>anyone ever flies my plane, he would get mixed up
>trying to understand the checklist or responding to a
>failure situation. There will be two electrical
>systems and I would like them to be operated as two
>systems, not three.
Then just leave the aux battery master off the
panel, put in a IBMM and use the main battery
only for cranking.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Radio Shack Landing Gear Voice Warning Device |
I'm with Ray on this one, Bob. Do you have a schematic / picture hiding away
in you're archives so us "babes in the wood" can make a stab at putting out
wives voices in the cockpit with us?
> fairly simple to overcome ...
simple is a relative term.
Regards,
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Shack Landing Gear Voice Warning Device |
In a message dated 11/7/2002 10:32:44 AM Central Standard Time,
sladerj(at)bellsouth.net writes:
> I'm with Ray on this one, Bob. Do you have a schematic / picture hiding away
> in you're archives so us "babes in the wood" can make a stab at putting out
> wives voices in the cockpit with us?
>
> > fairly simple to overcome ...
> simple is a relative term.
> Regards,
> John Slade
John! I'm going to tell Char on you!
...Chrissi
Cozy Mk-IV 13B Turbo
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Chrissi(at)BlueMountainAvionics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | List Fund Raiser - What Listers Are Saying... |
Dear Listers,
First, I'd like say *thank you* to everyone that's already made a
Contribution to this year's List Fund Raiser! Thank you! If you haven't
already made a Contribution, won't you take a movement and show your
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YOUR GENEROSITY that keeps them running!!
Won't please take a minute and make a Contribution via the SSL secure web
site via Credit Card, Paypal, or personal check. Here's the URL:
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
This year, I've been getting some *really* nice comments from Contributors
and I thought I'd pass along a few of them below. What does the List mean
to *you*?
Thank you for your support!!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
_________________ What your fellow Listers are saying... _________________
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Greg B.
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Kevin H.
...very much appreciated.
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Great site...
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those times when I got stuck for some reason.
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Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization and availability |
Hi Bob -
Would you have these 3 drawings in a .DWG file?
Many thanks,
John Schroeder, Lancair ES
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> The drawing package that goes with the ABMM is at
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear Voice Warning Device |
>
>In a message dated 11/7/2002 10:32:44 AM Central Standard Time,
>sladerj(at)bellsouth.net writes:
>
>
> > I'm with Ray on this one, Bob. Do you have a schematic / picture hiding
> away
> > in you're archives so us "babes in the wood" can make a stab at putting out
> > wives voices in the cockpit with us?
> >
> > > fairly simple to overcome ...
> > simple is a relative term.
> > Regards,
> > John Slade
I never had occasion to use either a pre-programmed voice
synthesizer chip nor a record/playback chip. I seem to recall
seeing a record/playback chip on the pegs at Radio Shack.
Probably the product of choice for controlling your
voice playback chip is the "Basic Stamp" series of
microcontroller products.
Did a quick search of the 'net and turned up some
links that might prove useful. . .
http://www.parallaxinc.com/downloads/Documentation/Qvox/qv430p_program_tips.pdf
http://www.winbond-usa.com/products/isd_products/chipcorder/productbriefs/4000_product_brief.pdf
http://info.digikey.com/T023/V5/0242.pdf
http://www.circuitcellar.com/pastissues/articles/vona132/text.htm
check out selection of record/playback chips here
http://www.isd.com/psg_combo.pdf
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MULTIMETER TUTORIAL |
>
>
>Thanks for the multimeter links Bob. I may use some of it in
>preparation for a gig I'm doing later this month in Birmingham. I'm
>supposed to talk for about an hour on how alternators and voltage
>regulators work, and how to troubleshoot them. The audience is IA's who
>are taking some required continuing education to maintain their IA. Any
>ideas on what an IA's level of understanding is and what the most
>appropriate course material would be?
Hmmm . . . 1 hour isn't much. I'd consider a Power-Point presentation
that you can also use as a paper handout. Bill used to have an
excerpt on voltage regulators from the 'Connection that he
handed out at OSH . . . but I think your task needs to be more
directed to this audience. Don't assume anything about what they
might know. Plan to at least touch on the most rudimentary
of facts and features on which you're going to build the
presentation. Give me a call some evening and let's noodle out
a story-board that you can expand on.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | 2nd Battery Placement |
I'm building an RV-9A and installing bob's dual battery/ dual alt system.
Where are people physically mounting the second 17 amp battery? Any
suggestions?
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Grounding Question |
My 0-320 E2A also has a hole which is through a cast ear portion of the
engine case right behind the oil filler tube base. This is about two
inches above the bottom right side engine mount. There is also a case
hole on on the left side of the engine identical to the one on the
right. Either would be perfect for a grounding strap
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB (Res)
San Antonio
------------------------------------------------
> From: Sam Buchanan
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Engine Grounding Question
>
>
> Alex Peterson wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > > >I have an unused accessory pad cover (Lycoming IO 360) with 4
> studs
> > > >that are conveniently located where they would attach with a short
> > > >ground strap to my firewall single point grounding bolt. Any
> > > >suggestions? Thank you.
> > >
> > > What are folks using out there to find ground studs on their
> > > engines? Got any photos we can post?
> > >
> >
> > Some O360's, including mine, have a hole through the casting right
> > behind the oil filler tube socket. This hole serves no purpose other
> > than grounding, near as I can tell. I have no pictures, however.
> >
> > Alex Peterson
> > Maple Grove, MN
> > RV6-A N66AP 222 hours
> > www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
>
>
> Same with my O-320 E2D.
>
> Sam Buchanan (RV-6)
> "The RV Journal" http://thervjournal.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hammer-n-Tongs seminars |
Bob:
I am ready to sign up for this seminar as well. As I have offered for
the Feb seminar, It would be my pleasure to bring my instrument cradle
whether it is finished or not as an example of what has been done or what
needs to be done to complete it.
Ed Silvanic
Lancair ES
N823MS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Grounding Question |
>
> LESSON: unless the "kit" is very specific it is
>usually better to roll your own. I was trying to overcome my incompetence
>in electrical stuff. However, I have advanced greatly along the learning
>curve by just building. I have Electric Bobs book. I will end up tearing
>these wiring harnesses apart - to use the wire as wire.
Ernie,
Your statement reminds me of an e-mail I got from a Long-Ez
builder about 10 years ago. He had attended a number of my
forums at OSH and one of my first weekend seminars. His words
startled me by opening the message, "When I got home
after the seminar last Sunday, I got out the dikes and cut
all the wires out of my airplane."
I did talk with him about some specifics on his project and
I seemed to recall that he was fairly well along in the wiring
of his airplane. I was uneasy with the notion that anything
I'd said prompted him to trash a lot of work.
He continued, "I must have spent a hundred hours agonizing
over what to buy, where to put it while wires dribbled into
my project one strand at a time over months. After the
seminar and based on my experience to date, all that stuff
came out in an hour or so . . . and I REPLACED IT ALL IN
ONE WEEKEND."
Since that first reported epiphany, I've had a number of
builders report similar experiences.
The point of mentioning this is simple:
The learning curve on this activity is VERY steep. It's
quite possible that a builder spends a lot of time and
effort crafting a project that turns out "sorta okay"
but not what he'd do if he ever built another airplane.
I had a seminar attendee tell me that he was working on
his third OBAM aircraft . . . I think it was an RV.
I asked if he was contemplating a future as a hired
gun. He said, "No, this is the airplane I'm going to
want to keep!" I would have bet his project was
going to be a real show-piece.
I would encourage every builder to be aware of this an
be sensitive to the fact that the closer your project
gets to first flight, the more "carved in stone" it
becomes.
If at some point in time you stand back and just don't
really feel a lot of pride in what you see, don't
be afraid of "doing it right the second time." It will
go back in with a small fraction of the effort it took
the first time.
I cannot personally speak to the learning curve on
rivets, paint and upholstery. I WILL suggest there
are no compelling reasons for your airplane's wiring
to look like a first project.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hammer-n-Tongs seminars |
>
>Bob:
>
> I am ready to sign up for this seminar as well. As I have offered for
>the Feb seminar, It would be my pleasure to bring my instrument cradle
>whether it is finished or not as an example of what has been done or what
>needs to be done to complete it.
Thank you sir. I've had a LOT of positive feedback on these
deliberations. We'll try to get a product defined and
refined to marketing stage before the end of next year . . .
perhaps by the end of the summer.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Bob,
>
>Below is a copy of the post that induced me in thinking we could leave the
>aux master switch off the panel.
>I must confess I too did not like the idea of having two master switches to
>manage.
>But we are stuck with our electrically DEPENDANT engine.
>What would be the SIMPLEST way to retain redundancy and yet keep the panel
>as simple as possible ?
Are your batteries the same size? Is the aux battery connected
to the bus via a real contactor or a relay? If you have a small
aux battery that is not especially useful for either cranking -OR-
powering main bus items, then an out-of-the-way switch makes
some sense. Is this what we were talking about when I wrote
these words?
In either case, having an indicator light to show that the ABMM
has sensed proper bus voltage -AND- closed the aux battery
contactor/relay is important.
Bob . . .
>Cheers,
>
>Gilles
>
>
> >
> >My comment wasn't about BATTERY MASTER - OFF,
> >E-BUS ALT FEED - ON. I realized that I am mixing up
> >the subject here as this was the current topic (one
> >switch for all). I am OK with e-bus on, master off
> >(why do I prefer that sequence?) However, I am trying
> >to avoid having to flip TWO master switches On or Off.
>
> looks like the IBMM is for you . . . for most normal
> operations you never have to touch the aux battery
> switch. If it's a mini-aux battery used for ignition
> backup only, then the aux battery switch could be left
> in AUTO/OFF all the time or even deleted from the panel.
>
> If you have a twin-aux battery useful for cranking,
> then the only time you'd find it useful to turn on
> the second battery manually is if you'd like to
> improve cranking performance . . . but the main
> battery should get the engine going just fine too.
>
>
> > For most people who spend more time in rented
> >aircrafts, this is not intuitive and I'm sure that if
> >anyone ever flies my plane, he would get mixed up
> >trying to understand the checklist or responding to a
> >failure situation. There will be two electrical
> >systems and I would like them to be operated as two
> >systems, not three.
>
> Then just leave the aux battery master off the
> panel, put in a IBMM and use the main battery
> only for cranking.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear Voice Warning Device |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I also saw these recordable playback devices at Radio Shack a while back and
>had the same idea as John Slade had about using them for voice alerts like
>we have on the Boeings. My problem was that they all seem to be a "one
>touch-one playback" type of device. A device that keeps replaying the alert
>while the abnormal condition exists would be much more desirable. Other
>concerns were whether the audio output to the tiny onboard speaker is
>compatible with the inputs to my ICS (PSE PMA4000) and the fact the voice
>device is 9v (I think) and I have a 28V aircraft. Are these problems
>fairly simple to overcome or should I stay the course with the simple tone
>generator that you posted last week? I guarantee if I had my wife's voice
>on that chip there would be *ABSOLUTELY NO WAY* I could ever possibly make a
>gear up approach or landing!!!
If one were really sold on the idea of voice annunciation being
somehow superior to other audible forms, there are certainly ways
to do it. You'll need a micro-controller programmed to access the
chip's appropriate string of words and play them either once or
repeated as your needs dictate.
I'm not sure that voice annunciation is preferred. We learn
how to listen to ATC chatter and stay tuned for "Cessna Six Two
Xray" while pretty much ignoring everything else going on.
I ride in lots of RAC products that offer a range of alert
features. While sitting in the back hammering on my lap top
and listening to the headset, I tend to tune out the voice
chatter but the alert tones get my attention every time.
As I recall, TCAS on the Premier has tones AND voice.
Tones are unique, easily generated and tailored to a task.
I'd have to think long and hard about spending the time
to add this capability if there were other, more important
things to do on the project . . . like get the paint on
and seats upholstered.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Main fuel pump warning light |
>
>Since I'll have two B&C regulators on my Super ES, I plan to put the low
>voltage lights that come with them on my panel. I've decided to add a few
>other lights next to these, since the panel space is available. These will
>annunciate whether the boost pump is on, whether the cross feed is open,
>and low fuel pressure. I know how to wire the first four
>lights. Question: How does one construct a fuel pressure warning
>light? If it makes a difference, I will have a VM-1000, which also flashes
>low fuel pressure.
Does the VM1000 also generate alert tones? Do
your low altitude operations call for running a boost
pump? I've run tanks dry at cruise and lost perhaps
100 feet due to loss of power while switching tanks.
Unexpected loss of power in about any airplane involves
lack of fuel in 99% of the cases. When the light comes
on, your engine is going to be fussing too . . . I don't
see how adding a light is going to give you information
that's very useful.
>However, I've decided that I want a red fuel pressure
>warning light that is up high in the middle of my scan.
What kind of failure and under what conditions do you
perceive that you will benefit from having a red light
come on if fuel pressure drops off?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop1(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear Voice Warning Device |
> If one were really sold on the idea of voice annunciation being
> somehow superior to other audible forms,......
The jury is out on voice as far as I am concerned. I had a couple odf
friends land an Army T-42 (Beech Baron) wheels up at Nashville one
night wih the gear horn screaming in their ear.
There were two of us heading back to St. Louis one night from
Virginia. They got cleared ahead of us and were given a highr
altitude and were in icing conditions the whole way.
We had a lower altitude and actually beat them to Nashville by about 1/2 hour.
They had been listening to the icing warning for most of the trip so
when the gear horn sounded on their approach, they ignored it,
thinking it was still the ice warning.
They were both very experienced pilots, one an IP.
FWIW
--
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear Voice Warning Device |
> The jury is out on voice as far as I am concerned.
> I'm not sure that voice annunciation is preferred.
> I tend to tune out the voice chatter
Yea, but what if the voice is that of you're wife, and includes you're call
sign?
...or for a REALLY drastic situation, your EX-wife!
That would sure get my attention.
> like get the paint on
Done
> and seats upholstered.
Done
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Main fuel pump warning light |
>> Does the VM1000 also generate alert tones?
The EC100 annunciator is an option that does provide alert tones.
However, I decided to save $600 and not order this option. So I won't
have alert tones, though perhaps one could use output from the VM1000 to
wire an alert system, I don't know.
> Do your low altitude operations call for running a boost
pump?
The Bonanza manual (also uses the Continental IO550) calls
for Low Boost in the event of engine roughness or uneven fuel
flow. It does not recommend using the boost pump on climb,
descent, or landing unless these conditions present themselves.
> Unexpected loss of power in about any airplane involves
> lack of fuel in 99% of the cases. When the light comes
> on, your engine is going to be fussing too . . . I don't
> see how adding a light is going to give you information
> that's very useful.
> What kind of failure and under what conditions do you
> perceive that you will benefit from having a red light
> come on if fuel pressure drops off?
My thinking was that it would be nice to know in advance
if the engine driven pump is coughing so the boost pump
can be turned on right away and an engine stoppage avoided.
It seemed to me that electrical failure in IMC and engine
stoppage are the two of the bigger things to worry about, and
it would be nice to be able to address them quickly.
I've dealt with the electrical issue with Z-14. Since I'm
putting a few other lights near the Low voltage lights,
I thought I would try to address the fuel pressure issue too.
Perhaps you'll tell me that there are other things you'd worry about before
getting down to fuel pressure. I'm certainly a rookie at
airplane failure analysis and would surely benefit from yours and others
views on this. Thanks.
Dan O'Brien
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | light watts/amps ratings |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Maybe this is nit-picky for the purpose of load analysis, but if I want to determine
how many amps a 100 W landing light will draw, do I use 12 V or 14 V in
the equation? If I assume it's rated at 12 V, then it will draw 8.33 A. Whereas
if it's rated at 14 V which would be the norm for a car or airplane when the
alternator's working, it will draw 7.14 A which is enough difference to be
worth noting. Is there an industry standard for how bulbs are rated?
I know a lot of electronic equipment will draw "X" amount of power that stays relatively
constant over a voltage range, such that it requires more amps if the
voltage drops off, or less amps if the voltage goes up. But an incandescent
bulb won't work this way, hence my question.
Thanks for the help with my pathetic ponderings...
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bob Haan's Wig-Wag Flasher |
Mark:
I am using it and very please with it. I control it by one of the switches
on my Infinity Grip. If you decide to control it on the stick you will need
to come up with a way of knowing when it is acutally on since you can't see
the flashing lights during the daylight hours. I hooked up a small warning
light in line with one of the lights and it flashes each time that wing light
flashes.
Bob sent me a note saying they were going to add some type of provision in
the unit for this.
Len Leggette RV-8A
N901LL (res)
Greensboro, N.C.
Flying - 5 hours !!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: light watts/amps ratings |
>
>Maybe this is nit-picky for the purpose of load analysis, but if I want to
>determine how many amps a 100 W landing light will draw, do I use 12 V or
>14 V in the equation? If I assume it's rated at 12 V, then it will draw
>8.33 A. Whereas if it's rated at 14 V which would be the norm for a car
>or airplane when the alternator's working, it will draw 7.14 A which is
>enough difference to be worth noting. Is there an industry standard for
>how bulbs are rated?
Oh, sorta . . . take a peek at this
catalog of lamps. Note that lamps for 14 volt vehicles
are rated at 12.0 12.8 and 13.0 volts.
http://www.lighting.philips.com/nam/product_database/pdf/mini_seal.pdf
Have no idea
why the variable nor why they choose any particular
value. It's nice that they DON'T rate them at 13.8 or
14.0 volts because with larger lamps in particular,
you don't want to install wiring so large that the
voltage drop to the lamp is near zero . . .
Note that the 4509 lamps found on lots of single engine
aircraft is rated at 100W at 13.0 volts.
While searching out data for this reply I stumbled
onto this little tid-bit of trivia . . .
Here's a 1945 new product announcement from GE that
speaks to their new offering for light aircraft landing
lights:
http://americanhistory.si.edu/scienceservice/026015.htm
I'd been working under the mistaken impression
that the 4509 was a trickle up from automotive. I think
someone told me about 30 years ago that they were
originally a "tractor" lamp.
The fact that the light has been around since 1945
speaks otherwise. Automotive applications were all
6 volt until mid 50's . . . any new lamp of that
era almost HAD to be have a military/aviation
heritage.
Just keep yer eyes and ears open kiddies and you'll
learn something new EVERY day . . . ain't that Internet
thingy wonderful?
>I know a lot of electronic equipment will draw "X" amount of power that
>stays relatively constant over a voltage range, such that it requires more
>amps if the voltage drops off, or less amps if the voltage goes up. But
>an incandescent bulb won't work this way, hence my question.
Yer right. Due to the very high positive temperature
coefficient of a lamps filament resistance, an increase
in voltage does not produce a proportionate increase
in current.
When in doubt, go to the engineering data. Keep
a copy of that lamp catalog .pdf file I cited above.
I've had a number of paper equals to it for years
and now I have one on my hard drive . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
Could somebody please tell me what this is short for: ABMM, OBAM, IBMM
Thanks,
ED
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
ABMM - Aux battery management module
OBAM - Owner built and maintained
Don't remember seeing IBMM
R
----- Original Message -----
From: <N823ms(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ABMM utilization
>
> Could somebody please tell me what this is short for: ABMM, OBAM, IBMM
>
> Thanks,
>
> ED
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <WernerSchneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Main fuel pump warning light |
>
>
> >However, I've decided that I want a red fuel pressure
> >warning light that is up high in the middle of my scan.
>
> What kind of failure and under what conditions do you
> perceive that you will benefit from having a red light
> come on if fuel pressure drops off?
>
> Bob . . .
Vapor lock on run up? We had last year a total loos of an airplane because
he departed and might have had a vapor lock, might be he would have seen the
light and aborted takeoff as he might not have picked up a fluctuating fuel
pressure gauge?
Just guessing Werner
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
> >What would be the SIMPLEST way to retain redundancy and yet keep the
panel
> >as simple as possible ?
>
>
> Are your batteries the same size? Is the aux battery connected
> to the bus via a real contactor or a relay? If you have a small
> aux battery that is not especially useful for either cranking -OR-
> powering main bus items, then an out-of-the-way switch makes
> some sense. Is this what we were talking about when I wrote
> these words?
Well, there are to be two 9 Ah batteies, one to power the main busand the
main fuel pump, the other, only for redundancy, will only run the boost
pump.
At the moment, we intend to retain the ablility to help cranking with the
aux battery. So there will be an aux battery contactor.
But this would only be in very particular cases, hence the idea of keeping
the switch off the panel. We consider actuating this switch a maintenance
task to help start the engine in case of starting difficulties or depleted
main battery. Normally in such a situation one would cancel the flight.
So the notion of hiding the switch from the pilot, and keeping the panel
simple was making sense to us.
>
> In either case, having an indicator light to show that the ABMM
> has sensed proper bus voltage -AND- closed the aux battery
> contactor/relay is important.
>
An additional annunciator poses no problems.
Do we need a means of switching down the ABMM in flight ?
What would you recommend in our particular case ?
Thanks
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey(at)alumni.utexas.net> |
| Subject: | Tones vs. Voice Annunciation |
I have to respectfully disagree with Bob's statement that alert tones are
preferable to voice annunciations. Having flown two different generations
of Navy aircraft (the A-6E and the F-18A), I can tell you there is a quantum
leap in situational awareness when you go from simple tones to voice
annunciation. The A-6 had only tones, warbles, beeps, etc. and when you
were in the real short hairs it was very easy to simply block out the tone
warning in order to hear the radio, the B/N, or just keep from becoming one
with mother earth. It really got confusing when you had multiple sounds
going off at the same time. In the Hornet you never had any doubt about
what was going on when the voice annunciations started up. Plain, straight
to the point, and persistently louder until you did something about the
abnormal condition. Same is true with the Boeings that I now fly. The
EGPWS has at least 7 or 8 (they keep adding stuff) verbal alerts/warnings.
You never have any doubt what the abnormal situation is when it starts
squawking. Tones or beeps require analysis of numerous different systems to
determine what is causing the alert. The takeoff warning horn and the cabin
pressure warning horn in the 737 sound very similar and I cannot tell you
how many times I have sat in the simulator and watched a guy work and work
on trying to figure out why his takeoff warning horn is blaring away at
FL370 while the cabin pressure differential is dropping so fast you can
barely see the needle! Bottom line is that for a simple aircraft, tones are
probably adequate. For more complex aircraft with lots of systems, voice
annunciation wins hands down.
Regards,
Ray
Original Message**********************************************
I'm not sure that voice annunciation is preferred. We learn
how to listen to ATC chatter and stay tuned for "Cessna Six Two
Xray" while pretty much ignoring everything else going on.
I ride in lots of RAC products that offer a range of alert
features. While sitting in the back hammering on my lap top
and listening to the headset, I tend to tune out the voice
chatter but the alert tones get my attention every time.
As I recall, TCAS on the Premier has tones AND voice.
Tones are unique, easily generated and tailored to a task.
I'd have to think long and hard about spending the time
to add this capability if there were other, more important
things to do on the project . . . like get the paint on
and seats upholstered.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
>
>ABMM - Aux battery management module
>OBAM - Owner built and maintained
I was talking with a group of the great unwashed
one day and the subject of amateur built aviation
came up. A few amongst them had heard about those
"experimental" machines that folks were building
in their basements and garages. They opined that
this class of flying machines constituted a great
hazard to life and property of the general public.
After all, they knew that folks like Beechcraft,
Cessna, et. als. were greatly restricted in how
they might use their "experimental" airplanes.
Their operations were always fraught with uncertainty,
else why would they call them "experimental".
Our airplanes are "educational" but a LONG way
from experimental in the sense that certified
aviation uses the term. I considered various
alternatives for referring to the products of
our craft without painting them in the same colors
as the experimental flight test aircraft at RAC.
OBAM seemed most logical at the time. I'd be
interested in hearing other suggestions too.
We need to be crafting tools with which to
defend our discipline . . . like the stock
market, success or failure of OBAM aviation
is founded in perceptions. And make no mistake
about it, there are people out there with
great power to make our lives miserable
based on their goals and perceptions. If
perceptions of the general public align with
those in power, then there is an additional
perception that a MANDATE exists to "rid our
society of this growing menace."
As we have witnessed time and time again,
there's a growing trend in this country to
toss constituted foundations aside if those
wielding the hammer believe that a majority
public sentiment is behind them. Believe me
folks, all that we've grown to know and love
in aviation is but a pen-stroke from destruction.
The least we can do is help our friends and
neighbors acquire a more accurate perception
of what we're really all about.
>Don't remember seeing IBMM
The ABMM and IBMM are the same critter. I wrote
an article for S.A. about 6 years ago in response
to a reader question about adding batteries to
support the second-half of an electrically dependent
engine's lifelines. It was an "ignition battery
management module" back then.
In years since, we've perceived that more than
ignition systems would benefit from inclusion
of a second battery, hence the name change.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Tones vs. Voice Annunciation |
Along these lines, I think I have heard of a trend in cockpit
information management that prioritizes and limits the type and
number of warnings that are presented to the pilot. I believe
the systems attempt to decide which kind of abnormal condition
is more important, and present a warning for that condition
only. One of the code words, I believe, was 'dark panel'. The
idea is that you don't want to overload the pilot with decisions
about which information to worry about. Apparently pilots working
in this kind of environment are less likely to fixate on something
that is comparatively inconsequential while a fire is going or
while they are about to stall/spin the airplane.
Maybe some of you who have studied the various multi-function
displays, and the like can answer whether these information systems
have any prioritization functions. Even without these systems, with
the use of one of the microprocessors that have been discussed, a
hierarchy of warnings could be developed for a particular airplane.
If you are considering voice warning systems, I think you would have
to do this anyway because you wouldn't want to have the system trying
to say 2 things at once. I guess the default solution would be to
just have a warning message queue so that the first condition requiring
attention gets out of the squawk box first. If messages repeat,
however, adding a little more logic would be a slick feature.
Adding this kind of system could be pretty time consuming, and I have
to say that I'd rather be flying that puttering around with something
like this. I guess it depends on how you like to spend your time.
Matt Prather
N34RD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray P. Stallings" <JetJockey(at)alumni.utexas.net>
Date: Friday, November 8, 2002 7:35 am
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tones vs. Voice Annunciation
>
>
> I have to respectfully disagree with Bob's statement that alert
> tones are
> preferable to voice annunciations. Having flown two different
> generationsof Navy aircraft (the A-6E and the F-18A), I can tell
> you there is a quantum
> leap in situational awareness when you go from simple tones to voice
> annunciation. The A-6 had only tones, warbles, beeps, etc. and
> when you
> were in the real short hairs it was very easy to simply block out
> the tone
> warning in order to hear the radio, the B/N, or just keep from
> becoming one
> with mother earth. It really got confusing when you had multiple
> soundsgoing off at the same time. In the Hornet you never had any
> doubt about
> what was going on when the voice annunciations started up. Plain,
> straightto the point, and persistently louder until you did
> something about the
> abnormal condition. Same is true with the Boeings that I now fly.
> TheEGPWS has at least 7 or 8 (they keep adding stuff) verbal
> alerts/warnings.You never have any doubt what the abnormal
> situation is when it starts
> squawking. Tones or beeps require analysis of numerous different
> systems to
> determine what is causing the alert. The takeoff warning horn and
> the cabin
> pressure warning horn in the 737 sound very similar and I cannot
> tell you
> how many times I have sat in the simulator and watched a guy work
> and work
> on trying to figure out why his takeoff warning horn is blaring
> away at
> FL370 while the cabin pressure differential is dropping so fast you
> canbarely see the needle! Bottom line is that for a simple
> aircraft, tones are
> probably adequate. For more complex aircraft with lots of systems,
> voiceannunciation wins hands down.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ray
>
>
> Original Message**********************************************
> I'm not sure that voice annunciation is preferred. We learn
> how to listen to ATC chatter and stay tuned for "Cessna Six Two
> Xray" while pretty much ignoring everything else going on.
> I ride in lots of RAC products that offer a range of alert
> features. While sitting in the back hammering on my lap top
> and listening to the headset, I tend to tune out the voice
> chatter but the alert tones get my attention every time.
> As I recall, TCAS on the Premier has tones AND voice.
>
> Tones are unique, easily generated and tailored to a task.
> I'd have to think long and hard about spending the time
> to add this capability if there were other, more important
> things to do on the project . . . like get the paint on
> and seats upholstered.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | New kid on the block . . . |
Received a note from a member on the list informing
me that Eric Scott had approached him directly
to offer his version of the ABMM that I published
a data package on a few weeks ago.
You'll read some concern in his message for
the ethics of purchasing "my" products from other
suppliers. I would like to take this opportunity
to make my personal position clear in these matters:
The primary mission of the AeroElectric Connection
is the development, gathering, sifting and refinement
of ideas. We're in the information business. Ancillary
activities like selling tools, parts, and products
won't be allowed to dilute the primary business
mission. Hence, the parts and tools side of the business
went to B&C a couple of years ago when Dee decided to work
on her doctorate. Dee was contributing the majority
of time and effort to support that part of the business.
Another feature of the tools and parts business was
that not all of the products on the shelves
originated within our mission to advance the state
of the art and science of building airplanes. The
activity was that of being a merchant . . . good
cash flow for someone who wants to do it but it didn't
really fit my business model.
Anything that pops up on our website in the future
will be original products. I've got a lot of ideas
that will begin to show up as working hardware. However,
any product wherein I publish all the details for
fabricating the device is, for all practical purposes,
public domain. If Eric or anyone else who believes
they have skills and a desire to offer a quality
product or service based upon what they find published
on my website, I welcome their participation in
this exciting and gratifying activity.
In fact, Eric has sent me several products he
has proposed and prototyped evaluate. I will test
them and offer him the best advice I have. These are
products for which we may (and probably do)
have our own ideas. Eric and I may find ourselves
toe-to-toe in the marketplace competing for your
business on some products . . . . that IS
as it SHOULD be.
You've all heard me offer to help other suppliers
harden up their products to the spirit and intent
of DO-160. I am a consultant to lots of folks
who have proprietary information to keep under
wraps and I know how to comply with those wishes.
I'll suggest there is nothing sadder than good,
public domain information that is not shared.
That's the major mission here at the
AeroElectric Connection. I don't sell information,
I sell a service that brings the information
together in convenient packages.
The marketplace can only get better when
alternative sources for ideas and products
compete. If one finds fault in the physics or
logic of any competing product, "mercy" has
no place in the discussion of fact.
We all have a duty to be polite but b.s. is b.s.
and should be labeled as such with as much
dignity as we can muster. But when good ideas
compete, we ALL benefit.
Here is the message I received and my response
to it . . .
>Bob,
>
>Following our messages about ABMM last week a gentleman made me an offer off
>list.
>In his document he's referring to you as the primary designer of the device.
>Are you interested in having a copy of the whole message and attachment ?
>Of course, for ethic reasons, we'd rather do business with you or friendly
>suppliers like B&C.
Yes, Eric indicated an interest in producing his
own version of the low voltage warning and battery
management module. I welcome his willingness to
invest time and resources to become a supplier
of goods and services to the OBAM aviation
community. He announced on the list that he
had a product to offer that was packaged
differently. I encouraged him to get a website
up and publish pictures and installation data
for his stuff. I suggested he download
.html files from my website to use as a template
for crafting his own catalogs.
Our individual success or failure needs to
hinge on customer perceptions of value both
in terms of specific products and companies
that offer them. I appreciate your feelings of
loyalty and concerns with respect to ethics
but I ENCOURAGE you to consider all the
offerings from Eric or anyone else as you
craft the final configuration of your project.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flap motor amps? |
>
>Anybody know approx how many amps Vans flap motor draws? I know it's only
>an intermittent load, but I'm just curious for fuse and relay sizing...
I've not measured it but I've been told that it maxes out
at 5A full load. Further, the way it's used in the RV's
doesn't begin to load it up severely. I've seen this
actuator and words I've heard about it are consistent
with my observations. If anyone flying one of these
motors could do an in-flight measurement of full flap
extension current on final, it would be a really good
data point to have in the archives.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System on Velocity |
Bob,
I sent a reply to nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com yesterday
and received a "fail to deliver" in return with reference
Use bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net . . . better yet, join the
AeroElectric-List at http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
I have adopted the 'Figure -11A. Dual Battery, SingleAlternator'
plan for my Velocity. The technician doing the wiring has suggested
we put warning lights below each ignition switch to come 'on' if
the switch is off, or the ignition quits working.
Does the ignition system have an output that turns on
an IGN FAIL light? If not, how does he propose that the
light come on when the ignition system quits working?
We don't put such lights on the switches on magneto fitted engines,
why would we put them on engines fitted with engines fitted
with electronic ignitions?
He also suggests putting in a 'push to test switch' for those plus for
the overvoltage light. In my opinion, none of the lights or test switch are
needed. Do you have any thoughts on the matter that you would like to share?
I would appriciate your input. Thanks,
I agree with you sir. The low volts warning light gets
pre-flight tested when you turn on the master switch
and before the engine gets started. I don't see where
lights on the other switches add any value.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Flap motor amps? |
In the VANS supplied wiring loom they protect the flap circuit with a 5 Amp
breaker so clearly it is pulling less than that. Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Flap motor amps?
>
>Anybody know approx how many amps Vans flap motor draws? I know it's only
>an intermittent load, but I'm just curious for fuse and relay sizing...
I've not measured it but I've been told that it maxes out
at 5A full load. Further, the way it's used in the RV's
doesn't begin to load it up severely. I've seen this
actuator and words I've heard about it are consistent
with my observations. If anyone flying one of these
motors could do an in-flight measurement of full flap
extension current on final, it would be a really good
data point to have in the archives.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klehman <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Tones vs. Voice Annunciation |
Story goes like this. Wife finally has hearing tested but to her
surprise is told her hearing is perfect. Doctor then points out that it
is ONLY her husband that she has trouble hearing...
Using your spouse's voice (as was also suggested) may not be the best
choice. I believe one often subconciously gives low priorty to a
spouse's voice when concentrating on a task. Perhaps because they know
the message will be repeated when they are less busy.
Ken ;)
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tones vs. Voice Annunciation
I have to respectfully disagree with Bob's statement that alert tones are
preferable to voice annunciations. Having flown two different generations
of Navy aircraft (the A-6E and the F-18A), I can tell you there is a quantum
leap in situational awareness when you go from simple tones to voice
annunciation. The A-6 had only tones, warbles, beeps, etc. and when you
were in the real short hairs it was very easy to simply block out the tone
warning in order to hear the radio, the B/N, or just keep from becoming one
with mother earth. It really got confusing when you had multiple sounds
going off at the same time. In the Hornet you never had any doubt about
what was going on when the voice annunciations started up. Plain, straight
to the point, and persistently louder until you did something about the
abnormal condition. Same is true with the Boeings that I now fly. The
EGPWS has at least 7 or 8 (they keep adding stuff) verbal alerts/warnings.
You never have any doubt what the abnormal situation is when it starts
squawking. Tones or beeps require analysis of numerous different systems to
determine what is causing the alert. The takeoff warning horn and the cabin
pressure warning horn in the 737 sound very similar and I cannot tell you
how many times I have sat in the simulator and watched a guy work and work
on trying to figure out why his takeoff warning horn is blaring away at
FL370 while the cabin pressure differential is dropping so fast you can
barely see the needle! Bottom line is that for a simple aircraft, tones are
probably adequate. For more complex aircraft with lots of systems, voice
annunciation wins hands down.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vincehallam(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Tones vs. Voice Annunciation |
In a message dated 09/11/2002 14:17:59 GMT Standard Time, klehman(at)albedo.net
writes:
> aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vincehallam(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Tones vs. Voice Annunciation |
In a message dated 09/11/2002 14:25:02 GMT Standard Time, Vincehallam(at)aol.com
writes:
> UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Tones vs. Voice Annunciation |
> Story goes like this. Wife finally has hearing tested but to her
> surprise is told her hearing is perfect. Doctor then points out that it
> is ONLY her husband that she has trouble hearing...
I have a real life example of this. My hearing specialist told me that my
hearing was very weak in one specific range of frequencies. My ex-wifes
speach range was right in the middle of that range.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Coax cable impedances |
Hi Group,
I'm wondering what the impedance difference is between RG-400 (for radio
antenna lines) and RG-142 (as used on the transponder). Anyone know and if
the 2 are interchangeable? Thanks much.
Bill
Glasair
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Lundquist <lundquist(at)ieee.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Coax cable impedances |
A quick look at Belden catalog seems to indicate that the only difference is
that the 142 has a solid center condutor and the 400 has stranded. They
both are 50ohms. The 142 may be a bit better RF wise and better suited to
the transponder which is pretty demanding of the coax. At VHF comm
frequencies the losses and power are less, and the more flexible RG400
should be easier to work with. I'll see if I can find some more detailed
info.
Dave Lundquist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Coax cable impedances
>
> Hi Group,
> I'm wondering what the impedance difference is between RG-400 (for radio
> antenna lines) and RG-142 (as used on the transponder). Anyone know and
if
> the 2 are interchangeable? Thanks much.
> Bill
> Glasair
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Coax cable impedances |
Thanks for the info Dave. I only have to make about a 24" run from the
transponder to the antenna so it appears the 400 should work OK. If you
find any more info please pass it along. Maybe 'Lectric Bob will weigh in
on this one also...hint, hint.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Lundquist" <lundquist(at)ieee.org>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coax cable impedances
>
> A quick look at Belden catalog seems to indicate that the only difference
is
> that the 142 has a solid center condutor and the 400 has stranded. They
> both are 50ohms. The 142 may be a bit better RF wise and better suited to
> the transponder which is pretty demanding of the coax. At VHF comm
> frequencies the losses and power are less, and the more flexible RG400
> should be easier to work with. I'll see if I can find some more
detailed
> info.
>
> Dave Lundquist
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Coax cable impedances |
>
>A quick look at Belden catalog seems to indicate that the only difference is
>that the 142 has a solid center condutor and the 400 has stranded. They
>both are 50ohms. The 142 may be a bit better RF wise and better suited to
>the transponder which is pretty demanding of the coax. At VHF comm
>frequencies the losses and power are less, and the more flexible RG400
>should be easier to work with. I'll see if I can find some more detailed
>info.
>
>Dave Lundquist
142 and 400 are identical in performance with respect
to RF. Only difference is, as Dave pointed out, is the
style of center conductor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Flap motor amps? |
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
I looked it up on the comapany's web site one day and if memory serves
correctly the current draw was around 3A with a 100lb load. Should be less
than that for an RV.
>>Anybody know approx how many amps Vans flap motor draws? I know it's
>>only an intermittent load, but I'm just curious for fuse and relay
>>sizing...
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved)
http://www.myrv7.com
Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rv6tc" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net> |
I'm trying to build a DC to DC converter that Jim Weir published in
Kitplanes. According to Digikey, a transistor that Jim calls for, the
2N2222A is now "obsolete by manufacturer". Any ideas as to what would
replace it?
Also, in another circuit, he calls for a .1 ohm resistor. All Digikey will
sell me is $45 worth. A little overkill seeing as how I just need the one.
Any idea of a supplier where I can just buy one?
Thanks,
Keith Hughes
RV-6
Denver
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
rv6tc wrote:
>
> I'm trying to build a DC to DC converter that Jim Weir published in
> Kitplanes. According to Digikey, a transistor that Jim calls for, the
> 2N2222A is now "obsolete by manufacturer". Any ideas as to what would
> replace it?
>
> Also, in another circuit, he calls for a .1 ohm resistor. All Digikey will
> sell me is $45 worth. A little overkill seeing as how I just need the one.
> Any idea of a supplier where I can just buy one?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Keith Hughes
> RV-6
> Denver
>
If you really want mail order, try
http://www.mcmelectronics.com
However, in Denver there should be several electronics supply houses that can
help you. A local supply house should be able to cross the 2n2222A transistor
to a suitable replacement.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Coax cable impedances |
Bob,
This brings me to another question. Could RG-58 be safely used as a
transponder antenna feed line for a 24" run? I've got both RG-400 and -58
available and would like to use the 58 due to it's greater flexibility.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Coax cable impedances
>
> 142 and 400 are identical in performance with respect
> to RF. Only difference is, as Dave pointed out, is the
> style of center conductor.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
rv6tc wrote:
>
> I'm trying to build a DC to DC converter that Jim Weir published in
> Kitplanes. According to Digikey, a transistor that Jim calls for, the
> 2N2222A is now "obsolete by manufacturer". Any ideas as to what would
> replace it?
If you go to radio shack (or any other local
electronics store) you will probably find a
set of small NPN signal transistors. 2N3904
should be suitable if someone needs a number.
> Also, in another circuit, he calls for a .1 ohm resistor. All Digikey will
> sell me is $45 worth. A little overkill seeing as how I just need the one.
> Any idea of a supplier where I can just buy one?
You didn't say how many watts it is. If you are trying Jim's
Karmic thing, digiKey has an assortment of those Molex 0.63 connectors
to get you to the $25 minimum order.
They will sell one of:
<http://www.digikey.com/scripts/us/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=88130&Cat=31588910>
Those little resistors are trouble. You might try
Mouser or Jameco. But the postage will kill you.
<http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&&lstdispproductid=200241>
or
<http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&&lstdispproductid=337204>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator field breaker |
I'm looking for help with diagnosing the cause of a tripped alternator field
breaker on a Cherokee 235. It is a 5A breaker. It originally started
tripping when the rotating beacon was on but now seems to trip under almost
any load.
When it is engaged no additional load shows on the ammeter when landing
light or pitot heat is turned on which is not normal behavior..
Help would be appreciated on a starting place - regulator, alternator, ?
Thanks,
Stan Blanton
Cherokee 235
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
rv6tc wrote:
>
>
> I'm trying to build a DC to DC converter that Jim Weir published in
> Kitplanes. According to Digikey, a transistor that Jim calls for, the
> 2N2222A is now "obsolete by manufacturer". Any ideas as to what would
> replace it?
*** The 2N2222A? Obsolete? Say it isn't so!
A quick google search turned up:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/americanmicrosemiconductor/2n2222a.html
18 cents each.
>
> Also, in another circuit, he calls for a .1 ohm resistor. All Digikey will
> sell me is $45 worth. A little overkill seeing as how I just need the one.
> Any idea of a supplier where I can just buy one?
* Does it need to be *non-inductive*? If not, you can just make it up
out of copper wire. If it does, maybe you could buy 10 1-ohm resistors and
hook'em up in parallel?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wendell & Jean Durr" <legacy147(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tones vs. Voice Annunciation |
John Slade said "My hearing specialist told me that my
hearing was very weak in one specific range of frequencies. My ex-wifes
speach range was right in the middle of that range."
Lucky man.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Cann - SunPS <Tony.Cann(at)sun.com> |
Bob,
Does blending your "endurance bus" with a 2 Battery/2 alternator system lead to
the following architecture?
Left Main bus powered by 20 Amp alternator (pad mounted)
Right Main bus powered by 60 Amp alternator (front mounted)
Endurance bus powered normally by the 60 Amp alternator
Turning OFF power to the Right main bus would instantly load shed.
Switching could get a little ugly if one wants to power any bus from any battery
or any alternator.
thanks,
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Coax type & connectors |
>
> > ...the RG-142 has a solid center condutor and the
> > RG- 400 has stranded.
>
>Is there any problem with using crimp-type connectors
>on the 142 coax? Or must they be solder-type?
Either style of connector can be used with either
type of coax. The connectors on our website fit
both coaxes.
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
>
>I'm trying to build a DC to DC converter that Jim Weir published in
>Kitplanes. According to Digikey, a transistor that Jim calls for, the
>2N2222A is now "obsolete by manufacturer". Any ideas as to what would
>replace it?
>
>Also, in another circuit, he calls for a .1 ohm resistor. All Digikey will
>sell me is $45 worth. A little overkill seeing as how I just need the one.
>Any idea of a supplier where I can just buy one?
The 2N2222A was the military jelly-bean transistor. It came
in a metal case originally and was popular with a lot of
designers. The part had pretty good high frequency
capabilities too . . . heres a amateur radio transceiver
project that uses nothing but 2N2222 transistors!
http://www.io.com/~n5fc/2n2222.htm
Heres a data sheet on the 2N2222
http://downloads.solarbotics.net/pdf/2n2222.pdf
In recent years, the part showed up in lots
of industrial surplus houses.
Unless the circuit really
NEEDS the 600 mA current handling capabilities of the
2222A, a 2N3904 (another super popular, but plastic
jelly bean part) would do well.
http://downloads.solarbotics.net/pdf/2n3904.pdf
Everybody has these.
Digikey will sell you an ALSR1F-.10 (1 watt
.1 ohm) resistor for $1.98.
http://dkc3.digikey.com/T023/V5/0675-0679.pdf
Is Jim's article downloadable from anywhere.
If I could see the schematic, I could do a better
job of judging if the 3904 will substitute for
the 2222 in his circuit.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | FET as position sensor? |
I was once told that if you place a magnet close to a FET it will turn on.
I'd like to have a position sensing system (for a gear/throttle/canopy
warning system) without moving parts (I know that's an oxymoron, but go
with me here). Do FETs work that way, or would I be better off using reed
switches?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | FET as position sensor? |
>
>I was once told that if you place a magnet close to a FET it will turn on.
>I'd like to have a position sensing system (for a gear/throttle/canopy
>warning system) without moving parts (I know that's an oxymoron, but go
>with me here). Do FETs work that way, or would I be better off using reed
>switches?
This isn't true. Somebody may be thinking about hall
effect devices. Digikey stocks several devices at
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/us/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=34560&Cat=30868199
and data sheets for an exemplar device at
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Panasonic/Web%20data/DN6849,SE,S.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Right Angle BNC Connectors |
> Bob
>
>In some of your examples, you talk about right angle BNC connectors, but I
>don't find them on the materials list. Is Radio Shack the answer?
>
>I am not the worlds electrical genius, and I get a little worried buying
>stuff from various places. I am generally using the connectors and
>crimpers from web site.
Crimp on right angle connectors are available but not from
the manufacturer we use. I generally use a right angle adapter
on a straight connector and put a piece of heat shrink over
the cable connector to make it a bit more captive to the
end of the coax.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Endurance Bus |
>
>Bob,
>
>Does blending your "endurance bus" with a 2 Battery/2 alternator system
>lead to the following architecture?
>
>Left Main bus powered by 20 Amp alternator (pad mounted)
>Right Main bus powered by 60 Amp alternator (front mounted)
>Endurance bus powered normally by the 60 Amp alternator
>
>Turning OFF power to the Right main bus would instantly load shed.
>
>Switching could get a little ugly if one wants to power any bus from any
>battery or any alternator.
If you have dual-alternator/dual-battery architecture,
you don't need an endurance-bus. You have
4 power sources, two of which are engine driven
that can supply energy to either bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field breaker |
>
>I'm looking for help with diagnosing the cause of a tripped alternator field
>breaker on a Cherokee 235. It is a 5A breaker. It originally started
>tripping when the rotating beacon was on but now seems to trip under almost
>any load.
>
>When it is engaged no additional load shows on the ammeter when landing
>light or pitot heat is turned on which is not normal behavior..
>
>Help would be appreciated on a starting place - regulator, alternator, ?
What is the bus voltage while this is happening. Also, you need to
know what the field voltage is coming out of the regulator
when this happens.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Someone told me that a Zener Diode could solve a
>problem that I have but I don't know much about this
>type of diode.
>
>Could someone explain what it does, how it works and
>how we select one?
>
>Thanks!
What is it that you want to do with a zener diode?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rv6tc" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
Thanks for the info..... I think (though I have no basis) that the other
would do. Here is the circuit that I'm attempting to build.
http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0205/KP0205.htm
Keith
>
> Is Jim's article downloadable from anywhere.
> If I could see the schematic, I could do a better
> job of judging if the 3904 will substitute for
> the 2222 in his circuit.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by mtaout05.icomcast.net
| From: | jonste <jonste(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Book Club, and Remembering Your Spirit |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
>
>Thanks for the info..... I think (though I have no basis) that the other
>would do. Here is the circuit that I'm attempting to build.
>
>http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0205/KP0205.htm
>
>Keith
>
> >
> > Is Jim's article downloadable from anywhere.
> > If I could see the schematic, I could do a better
> > job of judging if the 3904 will substitute for
> > the 2222 in his circuit.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
A 2N3906 will work just fine in place of the 2N2222 . . . in
fact, any little plastic NPN transistor will work here.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rv6tc" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
Bob,
(Warning ** Electronics 101**)
In this case, is a transistor simply used as a switch? It looks like if
voltage is applied to the base, then the collector and emitter go to ground.
Is that the function, and if so, is the difference in types of transistors
simply the "trigger voltage"?
Sorry of the entry level questions, but I'm (slowly) teaching myself how
things work.
Again, thanks for all the help.
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: transistor help
>
> >
> >Thanks for the info..... I think (though I have no basis) that the other
> >would do. Here is the circuit that I'm attempting to build.
> >
> >http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0205/KP0205.htm
> >
> >Keith
> >
> > >
> > > Is Jim's article downloadable from anywhere.
> > > If I could see the schematic, I could do a better
> > > job of judging if the 3904 will substitute for
> > > the 2222 in his circuit.
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> > >
>
> A 2N3906 will work just fine in place of the 2N2222 . . . in
> fact, any little plastic NPN transistor will work here.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
In a message dated 11/9/02 4:21:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rv6tc(at)earthlink.net writes:
<< Also, in another circuit, he calls for a .1 ohm resistor. All Digikey will
sell me is $45 worth. A little overkill seeing as how I just need the one.
Any idea of a supplier where I can just buy one? >>
I don't know if this will help you but I recently needed a precision 9.5 ohm
resister to repair a multimeter that got zapped and ran into the same problem
of having to buy $60 bucks worth to get one. I worked around it by using a
$2.00 subminiature 20 ohm potentiometer set to the proper resistance and
sealed with epoxy.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, electrical stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FET as position sensor? |
richard(at)riley.net wrote:
>
> I was once told that if you place a magnet close to a FET it will turn on.
> I'd like to have a position sensing system (for a gear/throttle/canopy
> warning system) without moving parts (I know that's an oxymoron, but go
> with me here). Do FETs work that way, or would I be better off using reed
> switches?
>
>
Try searching the net for 'hall effect sensor'. That's the $2 term for a
magnetically activated solid state switch. Most new automotive ignition systems
use some type of hall effect sensor to replace the old points & condenser in the
distributor.
If you are a true innovator (otherwise known as 'scrounger') you can use
magnetic reed switches from a burglar alarm supply house. You just have to be
sure that you aren't asking them to handle a lot of current. In other words,
don't try to switch a 10 watt light bulb with them. The most common are either
normally open or normally closed with just 2 wires, but if you need an on-on
type switch (3 wires), I believe they are available also. These switches are
extremely reliable, with contacts inside a sealed, inert gas filled glass
chamber within the switch housing.
They are available in a lot of different case styles & mounting configurations.
The only potential downside is that they typically have a 1/4" to 1/2"
activation distance from the magnet, so you might not get the sensitivity you
need for an application where exact position is critical.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne McMullen" <cmcmullen(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
Try Mouser, Allied, or Radioshack. Failing that try a 2N4401. You can make
your own 0.1 ohm resistor by winding small gauge wire around a 1 or 10 ohm
resistor.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "rv6tc" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: transistor help
>
> I'm trying to build a DC to DC converter that Jim Weir published in
> Kitplanes. According to Digikey, a transistor that Jim calls for, the
> 2N2222A is now "obsolete by manufacturer". Any ideas as to what would
> replace it?
>
> Also, in another circuit, he calls for a .1 ohm resistor. All Digikey
will
> sell me is $45 worth. A little overkill seeing as how I just need the
one.
> Any idea of a supplier where I can just buy one?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Keith Hughes
> RV-6
> Denver
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field breaker |
> >I'm looking for help with diagnosing the cause of a tripped alternator
field
> >breaker on a Cherokee 235.
snip
> What is the bus voltage while this is happening. Also, you need to
> know what the field voltage is coming out of the regulator
> when this happens.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Unforunately there is no voltmeter in the plane - only an ammeter. I'll get
to the hangar tomorrow and get some measurements.
Thanks,
Stan Blanton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field breaker |
>
> > >I'm looking for help with diagnosing the cause of a tripped alternator
>field
> > >breaker on a Cherokee 235.
>
>snip
>
>
> > What is the bus voltage while this is happening. Also, you need to
> > know what the field voltage is coming out of the regulator
> > when this happens.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
>
>Unforunately there is no voltmeter in the plane - only an ammeter. I'll get
>to the hangar tomorrow and get some measurements.
that will help a bunch . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RG-400 vs 58 |
>Hi Bob,
>Guess you may have missed this one but I was wondering if RG-58 would do the
>job for a 24" feedline run from xponder to the antenna? What's your take?
>I've got both available but thot I'd ask as the 58 is easier to work with.
>Thanks for your help.
Given the short distance involved, there would be no
measurable difference in performance between the two
feedlines. However, RG-58 is made from PVC and Polyethylene
while RG-400 uses modern insulations. I haven't used
a piece of RG-58 in anything but a bench test harness
in over 10 years.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
>
>Bob,
>
>(Warning ** Electronics 101**)
>
>In this case, is a transistor simply used as a switch? It looks like if
>voltage is applied to the base, then the collector and emitter go to ground.
>Is that the function, and if so, is the difference in types of transistors
>simply the "trigger voltage"?
>
>Sorry of the entry level questions, but I'm (slowly) teaching myself how
>things work.
>
>Again, thanks for all the help.
>
>Keith
Very little. U101B is an op-amp but given that it
has no DC negative feedback around it, it's DC gain
is equal to the open loop gain of the OP amp . . .
but it DOES have AC negative feedback in the form of
C104 which makes the stage perform as a VERY slow
comparator.
Analyzing the R103, 104, 105,106 network, lets assume
the main supply voltage is 12.0 volts. This puts 6.0
volts on the + input to U101B and 6.28 volts on the - input.
This drives the output of U101B to ground and Q102 is
OFF. As the current drop across R115 increase due to
load on the power supply, the voltage on the downstream
end drops and the - input to U101B will cross below
6.0 volts when the voltage at R115/Q101 drops below
11.45 volts or .55 volts dropped across R115. If
R115 is 1.0 ohms (didn't you ask about a 0.1 ohm
resistor . . . that would be 10x too small). At
.55 volts dropped across 1.0 ohm, the power supply
would have to be driving a load of .55 amps.
At this time, the output of U101B rises at some
rate limited by the size of the capacitor C104 and
the amount of current by which the load exceeds
.55A . . .
When the output rises above 3.3 volts the divider
network R102/R115 puts about .6 volts on Q102 and
it begins to conduct thus pulling the command voltage
to the regulator lower. The net effect is to lower
the command voltage so some amount such that a constant
.55 volts drop is maintained across R115. If the
power supply has a dead short on it, Q102 is capable
of pulling the command voltage very close to zero
volts . . . a characteristic important the survival
of your power supply under worst-case conditions.
Now, current limit setpoint of this circuit isn't real
tight. If the supply is at the upper end of its
specified range of 16 volts, then the voltage drop
across R115 required to initiate current limiting
rises to about .7 amps.
This current limit technique is sufficient to protect the
regulator's pass transistor Q101 but it would not
qualify for service where you want/need a stable,
adjustable, constant current source.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Lundquist <lundquist(at)ieee.org> |
| Subject: | Re: FET as position sensor? |
Just a thought. If you don't want moving parts, the other option is an
optical interrupter. Should be plenty of stuff in Digikey to consider.
Dave Lundquist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: FET as position sensor?
>
> >
> >I was once told that if you place a magnet close to a FET it will turn
on.
> >I'd like to have a position sensing system (for a gear/throttle/canopy
> >warning system) without moving parts (I know that's an oxymoron, but go
> >with me here). Do FETs work that way, or would I be better off using
reed
> >switches?
>
> This isn't true. Somebody may be thinking about hall
> effect devices. Digikey stocks several devices at
>
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/us/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=34560&Cat=30868199
> and data sheets for an exemplar device at
> http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Panasonic/Web%20data/DN6849,SE,S.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
Bob,
I take the liberty of re-posting my last message, with additionnal thoughts.
>
> > >What would be the SIMPLEST way to retain redundancy and yet keep the
> panel
> > >as simple as possible ?
> >
> >
> > Are your batteries the same size? Is the aux battery connected
> > to the bus via a real contactor or a relay? If you have a small
> > aux battery that is not especially useful for either cranking -OR-
> > powering main bus items, then an out-of-the-way switch makes
> > some sense. Is this what we were talking about when I wrote
> > these words?
>
> Well, there are to be two 9 Ah batteies, one to power the main busand the
> main fuel pump, the other, only for redundancy, will only run the boost
> pump.
> At the moment, we intend to retain the ablility to help cranking with the
> aux battery. So there will be an aux battery contactor.
> But this would only be in very particular cases, hence the idea of keeping
> the switch off the panel. We consider actuating this switch a maintenance
> task to help start the engine in case of starting difficulties or depleted
> main battery. Normally in such a situation one would cancel the flight.
> So the notion of hiding the switch from the pilot, and keeping the panel
> simple was making sense to us.
>
> >
> > In either case, having an indicator light to show that the ABMM
> > has sensed proper bus voltage -AND- closed the aux battery
> > contactor/relay is important.
> >
> An additional annunciator poses no problems.
> Do we need a means of switching down the ABMM in flight ?
> What would you recommend in our particular case ?
>
We've just passed our weekend working on our project and talking about
electrical architecture.
Is there a means to render our two batteries, single alternator architecture
as transparent to the pilot as possible ?
We would be very satisfied to just have a master switch, an E-bus switch,
and an ignition switch on the panel. We could even give up on the
possibility to parallel the aux battery for cranking PROVIDED we have no
additional switch to manage IN FLIGHT.
Thanks for your advice,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Grounding Question |
Bob said:
> The learning curve on this activity is VERY steep. It's
> quite possible that a builder spends a lot of time and
> effort crafting a project that turns out "sorta okay"
> but not what he'd do if he ever built another airplane.
>
The Vans wiring "kit" is actually very good - and quite complete. If you
were able to install it with less than 5% change you would be happy. But,
of course, you can't. It is an older design for an RV-6, battery on the
other side of the firewall, circuit breakers, and wire runs already bundled,
tied into logical groups, terminals installed. Just lay it along the
fuselage like the spine of a fish. Pretty nice.
But I have lots of changes. I'm doing twice the work - figuring out their
design, trying to make it work and then redesigning the final procedure.
Tedious! On the firewall I have Bobs groundblock. On the next bulkhead I
have a couple of Bob's fuseblocks. The instruments are going in really
nice. Totally logical with an elegant simplicity. Promotes good
organization. I have to fight the Vans pre-bundled stuff - because I am
actually doing a better job. I plan to tear the pre-wired bundles apart,
for the wire, etc. A lot of it I can use as is - but it's not faster, it's
not cheaper and it may induce anomalies in my work.
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 85% Complete
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: transistor help |
rv6tc wrote:
>
>
> Bob,
>
> (Warning ** Electronics 101**)
>
> In this case, is a transistor simply used as a switch? It looks like if
> voltage is applied to the base, then the collector and emitter go to ground.
*** Actually, it's more like:
"When you flow current through the base and emitter, then the emitter and
collector connect themselves together". Of course, the current has to be
in the right direction.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
> Is that the function, and if so, is the difference in types of transistors
> simply the "trigger voltage"?
*** The "trigger voltage" is just the what it takes to get the base-emitter
junction to conduct, and it's more or less 0.6 volts for all silicon bipolar
transistors.
When the transistor is in a linear mode ( collector and emitter not QUITE
connected together ), then Collector current ( Ic) is
more or less equal to base current ( Ib) times something called "beta",
which is individual to that particular transistor. A beta of 100 would
be typical for small-signal transistors. It's not, however, a very
tightly controlled parameter, and ordinary transistor circuit design is
done such that the exact value of "beta" doesn't matter much.
Well, actually, it's much more complicated....
- Jerry "usedta know this stuff" Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | List Fund Raiser Continues... |
Marie Murillo
Dear Listers,
Just a quick reminder this morning that we're well into this year's Email
List Fund Raiser. Response has been great so far and there has been a lot
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http://www.buildersbooks.com this weekend, and let me just say that this is
an extremely fine quality unit. Its very light, folds down into a very
small form for storage, and will hold a whole lot of your "pilot
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Won't you make a Contribution today to support the these valuable Email
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Email List Administrator
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Adjustable "precision" resistors are not precise. |
>
>In a message dated 11/9/02 4:21:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>rv6tc(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
><< Also, in another circuit, he calls for a .1 ohm resistor. All Digikey will
> sell me is $45 worth. A little overkill seeing as how I just need the one.
> Any idea of a supplier where I can just buy one? >>
>
>I don't know if this will help you but I recently needed a precision 9.5 ohm
>resister to repair a multimeter that got zapped and ran into the same problem
>of having to buy $60 bucks worth to get one. I worked around it by using a
>$2.00 subminiature 20 ohm potentiometer set to the proper resistance and
>sealed with epoxy.
Potentiometers make mediocre fixed resistors . . . and very
poor precision resistors. The "adjustable" part of a pot is
a wiper than moves over the surface of a resistive element.
The contact pressure, surface condition, etc have a profound
effect on the series resistance that is a part of the
wiper's connection with the body of the pot. For example,
you needed 9.5 ohms and probably got that value when you adjusted
it the first time. Part of that 9.5 was contact resistance
of the wiper . . . it might have accounted for several ohms
of the total resistance. As the pot aged and felt the effects
of the environment, the body of the pot might be expected to
be quite stable but the wiper's contact resistance cannot.
If you expected 1% tolerance (+/- 9.5 milliohms) and
the contact resistance at set-time was 2000 milliohms,
it's easy to see how a normal variation of several hundred
milliohms of contact resistance can blow away the
accuracy of the set-point.
When used as a voltage divider where contact resistance
is washed out by keeping the wiper's current load very
small, an adjustment can be quite stable . . .
Digikey will sell you a bag of 5 precision resistors for
$1. Since the lowest value you can get in the jelly-bean
variety precision resistors is 10.0 ohms, you need to
parallel the 10.0 ohm resistor with a 191 ohm resistor
to get 9.50 ohms. You have to throw away 80% the resistors
you buy but they only cost $2 total. This combination of
stable devices can be expected to be very close to 9.50
ohms for a VERY long time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Nothing in the plane, but I know some electronics
>experts hang around here; that's why I asked. It is
>to resolve an incompatibility problem between my car
>and my remote starter. The brake switch wire stays at
>2.8 volts and goes to 12V when I press the brake
>pedal. The 2.8V is enough to disengage my remote
>starter (so it does not work). I resolved the problem
>with a relay, but I hate the "click" sound everytime I
>press the brake pedal. The Zener Diode, from what I
>understood will resolve that more neatly.
I'd try loading the signal line with a resistor
first. That 2.8v residual may be just a few milliamps
or microamps of source current. Try tying a 470 ohm,
1/2 watt resistor to ground on that line and see if
the voltage drops so low that the problem goes away.
The zener might help . . . a 3.6 volt device in
series with the phantom signal would make it drop
to zero on the other side . . . but it would also
drop a legitimate 12v signal down to 8.5 volts which
may add other problems.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I take the liberty of re-posting my last message, with additionnal thoughts.
>
> >
> > > >What would be the SIMPLEST way to retain redundancy and yet keep the
> > panel
> > > >as simple as possible ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Are your batteries the same size? Is the aux battery connected
> > > to the bus via a real contactor or a relay? If you have a small
> > > aux battery that is not especially useful for either cranking -OR-
> > > powering main bus items, then an out-of-the-way switch makes
> > > some sense. Is this what we were talking about when I wrote
> > > these words?
> >
> > Well, there are to be two 9 Ah batteies, one to power the main busand the
> > main fuel pump, the other, only for redundancy, will only run the boost
> > pump.
> > At the moment, we intend to retain the ablility to help cranking with the
> > aux battery. So there will be an aux battery contactor.
> > But this would only be in very particular cases, hence the idea of keeping
> > the switch off the panel. We consider actuating this switch a maintenance
> > task to help start the engine in case of starting difficulties or depleted
> > main battery. Normally in such a situation one would cancel the flight.
> > So the notion of hiding the switch from the pilot, and keeping the panel
> > simple was making sense to us.
> >
> > >
> > > In either case, having an indicator light to show that the ABMM
> > > has sensed proper bus voltage -AND- closed the aux battery
> > > contactor/relay is important.
> > >
> > An additional annunciator poses no problems.
> > Do we need a means of switching down the ABMM in flight ?
> > What would you recommend in our particular case ?
> >
>We've just passed our weekend working on our project and talking about
>electrical architecture.
>Is there a means to render our two batteries, single alternator architecture
>as transparent to the pilot as possible ?
>We would be very satisfied to just have a master switch, an E-bus switch,
>and an ignition switch on the panel. We could even give up on the
>possibility to parallel the aux battery for cranking PROVIDED we have no
>additional switch to manage IN FLIGHT.
Don't know what to tell you my friend. Once the second battery
is added to support the worst case situations on an electrically
dependent engine, you've crossed the threshold of a new paradigm
in aviation. Every time we added something like retractable gear,
constant speed prop, VOR receivers, transponders, GPS, . . . pilots
had to learn to deal with a new system.
The system you've chosen to put in your airplane all but
guarantees that whoever flies your airplane will never
experience an electrical emergency . . .
The advantage doesn't come without some costs . . . there
are some new things to learn.
If you're looking for the simplest implementation, I
would ignore the automatic battery management feature
of the module and use only the low voltage warning feature.
This eliminates an obligation to add the AUX BAT
CONNECTED light and explain what it means.
Now, you have three switches to manage the dc power system.
Your checklist would read something like this:
---------------------------
Before starting engine:
---------------------------
E-BUS ALT FEED - ON
Get ATIS and clearance data - this preflight
test the e-bus alt feed . . .
E-BUS ALT FEED - OFF
MAIN DC MASTER - BAT ONLY
AUX DC MASTER - ON
Engine - Start. When engine is stable . . .
MAIN DC MASTER - BAT+ALT
------------------------------
In case of LOW VOLTS WARN:
------------------------------
E-BUS ALT FEED - ON
MAIN DC MASTER - OFF
AUX DC MASTER - OFF
If airport of convenience is more than a few
minutes away, shed engine loads from the main battery.
Continue flight to intended destination.
When airport is in sight - get clearance to
land and . . .
MAIN DC MASTER - ON
Exterior lights - As desired
-------------------------------------------
Battery depletion with failed alternator
-------------------------------------------
If either battery proves incapable of supporting
max endurance loads - This IS an EMERGENCY
MAIN DC MASTER - ON
AUX DC MASTER - ON
Land as soon as possible.
--------------------------------------------
If you put something like a new Microair transponder in
you're going to spend 30 minutes reading the book and learning
how to make this little critter jump all the hoops. If you've
got a GPS receiver, the instructions for driving that hummer
are going to be a whole LOT more complicated than anything
I've written above.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
When I asked the manufacturer what size fuse I should use for the Heated
Pitot Tube circuit, he hesitated and then responded that I should use a Slow
Blow Fuse, because the standard fuse would burn out while the pitot tube was
heating up, where a circuit breaker would not nuesance trip.
I don't see anything called a "slow blow fuse" on the Aeroelectric site.
Where can I get these critters? Will it provide adaquate protection when
compared to a CB? Should I use the same rating as I would the CB of similar
size?
What other applications would a slow blow fuse be appropriate in to prevent
nuesance fuse shorts?
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field breaker |
> >I'm looking for help with diagnosing the cause of a tripped alternator
field
> >breaker on a Cherokee 235. It is a 5A breaker. It originally started
> >tripping when the rotating beacon was on but now seems to trip under
almost
> >any load.
snip
The bus voltage(checked throught the cigarette lighter) with engine off was
12.02v.
With engine running 800-1900 rpm voltage gradually fell to 11.87v. No
indication of a charge on the ammeter.
I'm a bit puzzled on how to take a field voltage reading. Field breaker did
not trip during the 10 min. test.
The alternator is a Chrysler unit.
Thanks,
Stan Blanton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Lundquist <lundquist(at)ieee.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field breaker |
I would start by verifying that the current really is over the 5A breaker
trip point. It may just be that the breaker is bad.
Your bus voltage also sounds quite low. It should go up when the engine is
running, not down. Especially at 1900 RPM. Something in the 14.0V range at
least.
Could be either alternator or voltage regulator related
Ne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator field breaker
>
> > >I'm looking for help with diagnosing the cause of a tripped alternator
> field
> > >breaker on a Cherokee 235. It is a 5A breaker. It originally started
> > >tripping when the rotating beacon was on but now seems to trip under
> almost
> > >any load.
>
> snip
>
> The bus voltage(checked throught the cigarette lighter) with engine off
was
> 12.02v.
> With engine running 800-1900 rpm voltage gradually fell to 11.87v. No
> indication of a charge on the ammeter.
> I'm a bit puzzled on how to take a field voltage reading. Field breaker
did
> not trip during the 10 min. test.
>
> The alternator is a Chrysler unit.
>
> Thanks,
> Stan Blanton
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Braly <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
| Subject: | Aeroelectric-List you have a greeting card from . |
Aeroelectric-List,
has sent you a greeting card -- a postcard from Friend-Greetings.com. You
can pickup your greeting card at Friend-Greetings.com by clicking on the
link below.
http://www.friend-greeting.com/203746/pickup.html?code=Aeroelectric-List&id1111021
Message:
Aeroelectric-List
I just sent you a greeting card - please pick it up.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field breaker trips |
>
> > >I'm looking for help with diagnosing the cause of a tripped alternator
>field
> > >breaker on a Cherokee 235. It is a 5A breaker. It originally started
> > >tripping when the rotating beacon was on but now seems to trip under
>almost
> > >any load.
>
>snip
>
>The bus voltage(checked throught the cigarette lighter) with engine off was
>12.02v.
>With engine running 800-1900 rpm voltage gradually fell to 11.87v. No
>indication of a charge on the ammeter.
>I'm a bit puzzled on how to take a field voltage reading. Field breaker did
>not trip during the 10 min. test.
Your bus voltage indicates that the alternator is not
bringing the bus up. This is why we need to know the field
voltage (you'll need to run a temporary wire from the
alternator's field connection into the cockpit so you
can monitor it from there). I suspect we're going to
find that it is high . . .like 10v or more.
This means that the alternator has become disconnected
from the bus. Breaker bad? wire came loose? or the
alternator has become disconnected inside some way.
The regulator is applying full field to the alternator
in hopes of bringing the bus voltage up, hence the
high value of field current that may be tripping the
breaker. Note 8 in appendix Z of the 'Connection describes
an alternator system trouble shooting procedure that needs
to be accomplished before you pull anything off the
airplane. Too many A/P mechanics troubleshoot by substitution
of known good parts. It's better to do some simple
measurements and deduce which part needs changing before
you get out the hammers-n-saws . . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Slow Blow Fuse |
>
>When I asked the manufacturer what size fuse I should use for the Heated
>Pitot Tube circuit, he hesitated and then responded that I should use a Slow
>Blow Fuse, because the standard fuse would burn out while the pitot tube was
>heating up, where a circuit breaker would not nuesance trip.
>
>I don't see anything called a "slow blow fuse" on the Aeroelectric site.
>
>Where can I get these critters? Will it provide adaquate protection when
>compared to a CB? Should I use the same rating as I would the CB of similar
>size?
You're correct, they don't exist in the plastic, plug-in variety.
I wire a 100w pitot tube with 14AWG wire and a 15A fuse.
>What other applications would a slow blow fuse be appropriate in to prevent
>nuesance fuse shorts?
Perhaps some flap motors . . . this is a pretty rare requirement.
Up-sizing the wire/fuse sufficiently to prevent nuisance tripping
is a perfection good alternative.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
| Subject: | Aeroelectric-List you have a greeting card from |
.
VIRUS - do not click on the link in the last message with this subject
line!!!
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 224 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Main fuel pump warning light |
Still wondering about: a) why it wouldn't make sense to annunciate low fuel
pressure with a light, and b) how to do this. I'm hoping that someone
either convinces me not to do this, or gives me some hints about how to do
it. I have a fuel pressure gauge, but I was thinking about an idiot light
in the scan that illuminates when pressure is low so that I can turn on the
boost pump and avoid engine stoppage if the engine driven pump fails. This
task would seem to require a sensor that activates a switch when pressure
is below a certain level. Cars must have such sensors. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Dan O'Brien
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Prather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Main fuel pump warning light |
I think you could set up a warning light for just about anything you
would like
to keep track of while in flight.
You'll need a pressure switch with a trip point that is below the
desired operating
point for the system. I have seen pressure switches that are closed
when above
the trip pressure. You could connect a switch like this in parallel
with an LED,
and in series with an appropriately sized resistor (for current
limiting). That way,
when the switch is closed (good fuel pressure), it shorts across the
LED, keeping
it from lighting. When the switch opens (low pressure), it allows a
voltage to
show up across the LED, and lights it.
Another (probably more flexible way) to do it is to find a pressure
transducer
in the appropriate pressure range. You can use the transducer as one
leg of a
voltage divider (with a fixed resistor). The tap point in the voltage
divider can be
used to drive one leg of a comparator. The other leg of the comparator
could be
driven with another voltage divider made from an appropriately sized
pot. The
output of the comparator would drive an LED (with a resistor).
Adjusting the
pot would adjust trip voltage of the comparator which would adjust the
pressure
at which the light would come on. You'd need a voltage regulator to
drive this
mess too. This probably isn't the slickest, most stable design, but I
think it would
get the job done. You would have to base the resistor values on the
resistance
range of the pressure transducer. You might look at NAPA auto parts, or
maybe
Westach for a sender unit (transducer).
Is your fuel pressure gauge mechanical or electrical (does it already
have a sender)?
Matt Prather
N34RD
Dan O'Brien wrote:
>
>Still wondering about: a) why it wouldn't make sense to annunciate low fuel
>pressure with a light, and b) how to do this. I'm hoping that someone
>either convinces me not to do this, or gives me some hints about how to do
>it. I have a fuel pressure gauge, but I was thinking about an idiot light
>in the scan that illuminates when pressure is low so that I can turn on the
>boost pump and avoid engine stoppage if the engine driven pump fails. This
>task would seem to require a sensor that activates a switch when pressure
>is below a certain level. Cars must have such sensors. Any suggestions?
>
>Thanks,
>Dan O'Brien
>Lancair Super ES
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
| Subject: | Aeroelectric-List you have a greeting card from |
.
VIRUS - do not click on the link in the last message with this subject
line!!!
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 224 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field breaker trips |
snip
>
> Your bus voltage indicates that the alternator is not
> bringing the bus up. This is why we need to know the field
> voltage (you'll need to run a temporary wire from the
> alternator's field connection into the cockpit so you
> can monitor it from there). I suspect we're going to
> find that it is high . . .like 10v or more.
>
> This means that the alternator has become disconnected
> from the bus. Breaker bad? wire came loose? or the
> alternator has become disconnected inside some way.
>
> The regulator is applying full field to the alternator
> in hopes of bringing the bus voltage up, hence the
> high value of field current that may be tripping the
> breaker. Note 8 in appendix Z of the 'Connection describes
> an alternator system trouble shooting procedure that needs
> to be accomplished before you pull anything off the
> airplane. Too many A/P mechanics troubleshoot by substitution
> of known good parts. It's better to do some simple
> measurements and deduce which part needs changing before
> you get out the hammers-n-saws . . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
Thanks Bob. I'll continue the testing tomorrow.
Stan Blanton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Girard <fly.ez(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroelectric-List you have a greeting card |
from .
Guys this same thing has been going around the canard.com forum and is a
form of the W32 Opaserv.G.Worm. virus. Do not open any attachments, or
do anything with this message other than delete it. According to good
sources this is a very difficult virus to get rid of, requiring going
down to the DOS level in some instances to get it off your system.
Rick Girard
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
Bob,
We're somehow not quite understanding each other.
Reading from a previous post to another member of this list, things seemed
to be clear about that THIRD SWITCH.
> The system you've chosen to put in your airplane all but
> guarantees that whoever flies your airplane will never
> experience an electrical emergency . . .
>
We've agreed on that from the very begining.
>
> If you're looking for the simplest implementation, I
> would ignore the automatic battery management feature
> of the module and use only the low voltage warning feature.
I must have missed something about that BMM. What function has it that
does'nt eliminate the need for 3 switches to manage the power system ?
I thought it could take care of the AUX battery, without the pilot's
intervention.
Of course, in case of 'AUX battery not connected' light, we'll have to take
measures.
> This eliminates an obligation to add the AUX BAT
> CONNECTED light and explain what it means.
I thought we'd agreed on that light.
> Your checklist would read something like this:
> ---------------------------
> Before starting engine:
> ---------------------------
> E-BUS ALT FEED - ON
> Get ATIS and clearance data - this preflight
> test the e-bus alt feed . . .
> E-BUS ALT FEED - OFF
Makes sense
> MAIN DC MASTER - BAT ONLY
We don't have the BAT only feature. We have a Rotax with PM alternator.
As I was explaining in my last post, we give up on the cranking feature. So
the AUX battery is there ONLY to get a charge from the alternator and run
the boost pump when required.
In my opinion, this SHOULD simplify power management.
So there should NOT BE A NECESSITY for an AUX master switch to be turned ON,
just like you were saying some months ago.
Now, what about the following MODIFIED C/L ?
> Engine - Start. When engine is stable . . .
-ALL ALARM LIGHTS OFF
> ------------------------------
> In case of LOW VOLTS WARN:
> ------------------------------
> E-BUS ALT FEED - ON
> MAIN DC MASTER - OFF
> If airport of convenience is more than a few
> minutes away, shed engine loads from the main battery.
> Continue flight to intended destination.
> When airport is in sight - get clearance to
> land and . . .
> MAIN DC MASTER - ON
> Exterior lights - As desired
> -------------------------------------------
> Battery depletion with failed alternator
> -------------------------------------------
> If MAIN BATTERY proves incapable of supporting
> max endurance loads - This IS an EMERGENCY
>
-THE AUX BATTERY IS THERE ONLY TO PROVIDE EMERGENCY POWER TO THE BOOST PUMP,
TO KEEP THE ENGINE RUNNING.
-MAIN DC MASTER - OFF
-BOOST PUMP ON
> Land as soon as possible.
> --------------------------------------------
>
To sum it up :
Does the following setup make sense ?
-Main battery with standard loads and e-bus, and MAIN PUMP and TURBO CONTROL
BOX.
-Aux battery with BOOST PUMP only , managed by an ABMM.
-Two LO VOLT WARNING LIGHTS, one for each battery.
-Master switch, E-bus switch.
-Voltmeter, monitors main/E bus voltage according to e-bus switch position.
IN ADDITION, can monitor the AUX battery voltage through a spring loaded
switch near the instrument.
Is there something I missed ?
> If you put something like a new Microair transponder in
> you're going to spend 30 minutes reading the book and learning
> how to make this little critter jump all the hoops. If you've
> got a GPS receiver, the instructions for driving that hummer
> are going to be a whole LOT more complicated than anything
> I've written above.
Oh Bob, I CAN'T be THAT bad at reading instructions, can I ?
I hope my intentions are now clearer.
Cheers,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Adjustable "precision" resistors are not precise |
I agree that a potentiometer usually is not the best way to make a precision resistor.
Of course this is done all the time in any instrument that has a bunch
of screwdriver adjustment pots. For good and cheap precision, use a carbon composition
resistor slightly lower than the value desired and grind the body away
until the desired value is reached. Seal the wound with a dab of paint or glue
maybe. These are the poor man's laser- trimmed precision resistors (and capacitors).
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lundquist" <dlndqst(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Adjustable "precision" resistors are not |
precise
True, but perhaps the best combo is to use precision resistors for the bulk
of the required resistance and then use a potentiometer as a low level final
trim. I'm pretty sure this is what is done in most instrumentation
applications.
Carbon comp resistors are definitely a poor choice. Especially one that has
been ground. They age, absorb moisture and drift, even if you do reseal it.
Metal film is almost universally a better choice. The only areas I'm aware
of that carbon comp is good are: RF (lower inductance) and very high surge
apps where the fact that the resistance is distributed over a fairly large
volume helps it absorb energy a bit better.
Dave Lundquist
'77 C150M
RV-6 slow build
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re: Adjustable "precision" resistors are not
precise
>
> I agree that a potentiometer usually is not the best way to make a
precision resistor. Of course this is done all the time in any instrument
that has a bunch of screwdriver adjustment pots. For good and cheap
precision, use a carbon composition resistor slightly lower than the value
desired and grind the body away until the desired value is reached. Seal the
wound with a dab of paint or glue maybe. These are the poor man's laser-
trimmed precision resistors (and capacitors).
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re: Adjustable "precision" resistors are not |
precise
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
>
> I agree that a potentiometer usually is not the best way to make a
> precision resistor. Of course this is done all the time in any instrument
> that has a bunch of screwdriver adjustment pots.
*** For good and cheap
> precision, use a carbon composition resistor slightly lower than the value
> desired and grind
*** The trouble here is that the temperature stability of the carbon comp
resistor is not all that good.
Perhaps a better technique is to start out with a precision resistor
that's *close* to what you want, and series or parallel other resistors - or
even a pot - to get it exact.
Suppose, for example, I needed a 990-ohm resistor, and all I could find
was precision 1000-ohm resistors. I could get my 990-ohm resistance by
paralleling a 99000-ohm resistor with the 1K resistor. This 99000 ohm
resistor would not be very "fussy".
If the 99000 resistor is too big by say, 200 ohms, the total circuit
resistance is 990.02, still well within the 1%. Ditto for it being too
small. So a 100K pot would work OK here. I would still prefer to build
up the resistance out of fixed resistors. The exception is if the circuit
is somehow not "knowable" on the bench. One common example of this is
trim caps on antenna inputs, because they depend on the particular antenna
installation in the airplane. HOWEVER, you may note that modern equipment
generally does NOT have antenna trim caps - manufacturers have learned to
design without them.
Note that my original, 1000-ohm resistor was a *precision* resistor.
That's important, because even if I choose a non-precision resistor to be
exactly the value I want ( just take a bucket of 'em and measure until one
comes up ), such a resistor is not guaranteed to REMAIN at that value over
spans of time, or even changes of temperature. So I prefer to get pretty
close with a precision resistor, and make up the difference with either a
small carbon comp in series, or a large one in parallel.
Electronic circuitry is normally designed not to be terribly fussy about
the exact values of components. This is also considered to be "good"
design. The usual exceptions are:
* Measuring equipment. Range resistors in VOMs. Threshold-setting
resistors for voltage crowbars and annunciators. Etc.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru and All-Electric |
Bob
A am building an Avid with a Jabiru 2200 engine. Electric power is 120
watts continuous @ 3300 rpm from a single phase pm alternator, permanently
excited with a regulator, cruise will probably be around 3100 rpm. I would
like to go total electric panel, intend to use microair 760 com and
transponder, electric T&B, fuel pump, Grand Rapids (EIS), Aeroflash
nav/strobe/pos. lights and possibly a 50 or 75 watt landing light. I have
room to install the B&C 14-volt 8 amp alternator and might be able to fit
the SD-20 but that would be a tight. My question is do you think the B&C 8
amp would be in the ball park for my electrical requirements using Z-12
single battery, dual alternator? Looking on the diagram is see that the
8-amp only puts out 6.8 amps @ 3000 rpm as the SD-20 produces 12. I'm still
slowly reading you book. Thanks for any suggestions or opinions.
If you turn the SD-8 fast enough, it's good for 12A (like the 200G, gear
driven version). Most folks
are getting 10A on Lycoming installations. Have you done a load
analysis? If you plan to
fly at night then Nav lights and strobes become the largest continuous
loads. With the
two alternators combined, you can expect at least 16-18A which is on a
par with the
output from a Rotax 912. This should be enough. I am a little
disappointed with
Jabiru for producing an engine with so many attractive mechanical features
and selling the product short with a wimpy alternator.
I'll suggest you join us on the AeroElectric-List which you can
subscribe to at http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Our conversation
will be of interest to many others who frequent the list . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
Regarding the voltage at the brake switch.
Some newer vehicles use two and even three circuits on the brake switch. One
for the brake lights, one to disconnect the cruise control, and one for the
high mounted brake light. Some use diodes to isolated the high mtd. light fom
the turn signals/brake lights also. Make sure you have the correct circuit.
You may even have some feedback from a bad ground on some of the lights, the
double filament bulbs share a common ground in the bulb.
Steve
Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Bob,
We're somehow not quite understanding each other.
Reading from a previous post to another member of this list, things seemed
to be clear about that THIRD SWITCH.
> The system you've chosen to put in your airplane all but
> guarantees that whoever flies your airplane will never
> experience an electrical emergency . . .
>
We've agreed on that from the very begining.
>
> If you're looking for the simplest implementation, I
> would ignore the automatic battery management feature
> of the module and use only the low voltage warning feature.
I must have missed something about that BMM. What function has it that
does'nt eliminate the need for 3 switches to manage the power system ?
I thought it could take care of the AUX battery, without the pilot's
intervention.
Of course, in case of 'AUX battery not connected' light, we'll have to take
measures.
> This eliminates an obligation to add the AUX BAT
> CONNECTED light and explain what it means.
I thought we'd agreed on that light.
Okay, what are you going to tell ANY pilot about
its significance and how to deal with abnormal
behavior?
> Your checklist would read something like this:
> ---------------------------
> Before starting engine:
> ---------------------------
> E-BUS ALT FEED - ON
> Get ATIS and clearance data - this preflight
> test the e-bus alt feed . . .
> E-BUS ALT FEED - OFF
Makes sense
> MAIN DC MASTER - BAT ONLY
We don't have the BAT only feature. We have a Rotax with PM alternator.
If you wire the Rotax per Figure Z-16, then your MAIN DC PWR MASTER
has OFF/BATT-ONLY/BAT+ALT positions.
As I was explaining in my last post, we give up on the cranking feature. So
the AUX battery is there ONLY to get a charge from the alternator and run
the boost pump when required.
Fully one half of your stored electrical energy is
partitioned off to accomplish but a single task with
a very rare and tiny energy budget compared to the
rest of the airplane.
In my opinion, this SHOULD simplify power management.
So there should NOT BE A NECESSITY for an AUX master switch to be turned ON,
just like you were saying some months ago.
If I said such a thing, I cannot imagine that it was
in any context other than the original article I published
in Sport Aviation and that is: When the aux battery is tiny
and has no ability to help with cranking the engine, then by
all means, don't put it on the bus until after the alternator
comes on line. Management of this battery with a automatic
aux battery management feature WITH annunciation seems
perfectly rational. The switch would be closed manually if and
only if the pilot perceives that the aux battery is
depleted and needs assist from the main bus.
When the aux battery is the same size as the main battery
and is held on-line with a contactor capable of carrying
starter current, then then it's a good thing to use both
batteries for cranking. If it's your wish not to have
cranking ability you can save about 0.8 amps of continuous
load on the alternator by downsizing the contactor to
a heavy duty relay and you might as well shed some pounds
by downsizing the battery too.
I'm to trying to be obtuse my friend. All I'm saying is that
I don't understand the rational for configuring and operating
the system as you've described. Nor can I agree with the notion that
your airplane has features that are made known to an "inner
circle" of pilots yet other pilots will be kept
ignorant of their purpose and capabilities. If you're
going to put indicators and controls in the airplane that
are useful to some, then checkout instruction and check
lists should reveal the same information to everyone
who flies it. If everything is made known in this manner,
I don't understand why the third switch and it's associated
indicator wouldn't take it's rightful place with the other two.
I'm not suggesting that what you propose offers any
portent for disaster . . . you've got system features
and capabilities that outshine 200,000 of the world's
spam cans.
However, if I were offered a chance to fly your airplane and
found out later that I was not offered the same
information and instruction as the "inner circle"
I think I'd be pretty put out with you. All we're
talking about here is where some controls are located
and how some pilots are told about what they do and
made aware of all options for their use
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Adjustable "precision" resistors are not precise |
>
>I agree that a potentiometer usually is not the best way to make a
>precision resistor. Of course this is done all the time in any instrument
>that has a bunch of screwdriver adjustment pots. For good and cheap
>precision, use a carbon composition resistor slightly lower than the value
>desired and grind the body away until the desired value is reached. Seal
>the wound with a dab of paint or glue maybe. These are the poor man's
>laser- trimmed precision resistors (and capacitors).
When pots are used as true potentiometers, then the design
of the circuit takes into account and accommodates the potentiometer's
contact resistance. The note that opened this thread was speaking
of making a 9.5 ohm precision resistor with a 20 ohm pot wherein
contact resistance HAD to be a significant portion of the total
value . . . which of course makes the thing unstable and
very non-precision. I've used pots as adjustable pure-series
resistance but only when the majority of the total is a
precision resistor of much greater value wherein the
variability of contact resistance gets buried in the
total.
I've carve a hole in the side of many a resistor to make do-it-yerself
fixed resistors trimmed to some closely calibrated value. These
are still carbon resistors with operating characteristics that
might still disqualify them as "precision" in the environment
they have to operate. This was a popular dodge when a precision
resistor (1%) cost a $1 each and when $1 would buy a lot more
than it does today.
Now you can buy a bag of 5, 1% resistors for $1
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Brooks" <kdbrv8r(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 11/11/02 |
Listers-
Do NOT click on the link in yesterday's digest about a "greeting
card." Although it is not a virus, per se, it sends the same thing to
everyone in your address book and jams up the internet bandwidth. This
slows down the entire system as it overwhelms cyberspace. A "Pox" on
whomever is responsible!!
P.S. I also have the following new items for sale. Please respond off
list if interested.
Microair T2000 SFL Transponder (Bob's arrived a day after I'd ordered
another): $1250
Navaid Autopilot (servo arm mounted on top for RV-8 like Ray Lynn's):
$1300
Ken in Roscoe
RV-8
Picking up Hooker Harnesses today in Freeport
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <jclark(at)conterra.com> |
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 11/11/02 |
Thanks to all for the heads up on this.
On another computer I received such a message from a "known" person.
Obviously it was a case of hijacked email.
Now my question ...
Is there a known fix? My computer is not reporting any virus ... BUT I am
suspect of an application that LOOKS like the app that synchronizes my
PocketPC. I suspect that is is reading my "contact list" and sending
something.
Thanks,
James
p.s. THIS computer has NOT exhibit such behavior (yet???) ... (yes I have
McAfee on here, and ZoneAlarm)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> Brooks
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:37 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs -
> 11/11/02
>
>
>
>
> Listers-
> Do NOT click on the link in yesterday's digest about a "greeting
> card." Although it is not a virus, per se, it sends the same thing to
> everyone in your address book and jams up the internet bandwidth. This
> slows down the entire system as it overwhelms cyberspace. A "Pox" on
> whomever is responsible!!
>
> P.S. I also have the following new items for sale. Please respond off
> list if interested.
>
> Microair T2000 SFL Transponder (Bob's arrived a day after I'd ordered
> another): $1250
> Navaid Autopilot (servo arm mounted on top for RV-8 like Ray Lynn's):
> $1300
>
> Ken in Roscoe
> RV-8
> Picking up Hooker Harnesses today in Freeport
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 11/11/02 |
James,
Is your anti-virus software up-to date - check the vendor's web site for the
latest virus signature files they're generally updated every few days. you
might also try housecall.antivirus.com it's a free online virus checker I've
used in the past.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Capacitance Fuel Quantity Systems |
11/2/2002 and again 11/12/2002
Hello Bob Nuckolls, Can I please get some education on capacitance fuel
quantity systems? I'll list some questions, but please feel free to
extemporize (keeping in mind that my electrical / electronic knowledge is
extremely limited).
The situation: Envision a concentric aluminum cylindrical structure with
inner solid rod and outer tube partially submerged in aviation gasoline.
Separate wires are connected to the rod and the tube. The level of the
aviation gasoline varies in the tank in which the aluminum cylindrical
structure is submerged.
1) What electrical quantity is being measured from the two wires? Resistance
(ohms), capacitance (farads), current (amps), or_____________ ?
2) What is the most rudimentary analog electrical circuitry that can be
connected to the two wires to make the electrical quantity being measured in
1) useful to drive an analog fuel quantity guage? Only 12 volts DC is
available.
3) What electrical quantity would be the desired output to the analog guage
from the circuitry in 2)?
4) How would one make the circuitry in 2) above adjustable so that the analog
guage needle could be made to read at one extreme when the tube structure was
completely submerged in fuel and at the other extreme when the tube structure
was completely exposed to air?
5) If one wanted to use the output from the the two wires in 1) above to
drive a digital fuel quantity guage what would be your recommended guage type
and circuitry to drive that guage?
6) If one wanted to ensure that the guage in 5) above would show accurate
fuel level over the range of the tube immersion length despite non uniform
tank dimensions what would be your recommended method to accomplish that?
Many thanks for helping me (and maybe a few others) to better understand
these systems.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field breaker trips |
> > > >I'm looking for help with diagnosing the cause of a tripped
alternator
> >field
> > > >breaker on a Cherokee 235.
> >
> >snip
> >
I checked the field voltage this morning. No discernable output from the
ammeter between 500-1900 rpm with all possible loads applied. Bus vaoltage
was about 11.7 - 11.8v with engine off / 11.2 with engine running.
Field voltage was between 4.4 - 4.55v taken directly off the field terminal
of the Chrysler alternator.
With only one multimeter I was unable to monitor them both simultaneously.
The field breaker did not trip during this test.
Thanks for any help,
Stan Blanton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
> I thought we'd agreed on that light.
>
> Okay, what are you going to tell ANY pilot about
> its significance and how to deal with abnormal
> behavior?
Well isn't it that the the ABMM is dead and the AUX battery isn't getting a
charge ?
If on the ground, investigate.
If in flight, continue to destination and fix the module.
Should in the meantime the alternator fail or smoke come from under the
panel, you're left with the main battery to run the E-bus loads PLUS the
main pump.
In addition, you still have the redundancy of the remaining capacity of the
Aux battery to run the boost pump should need arise.
In the latter case, land at the nearest convenient aerodrome.
Did I miss something ?
>
> If you wire the Rotax per Figure Z-16, then your MAIN DC PWR MASTER
> has OFF/BATT-ONLY/BAT+ALT positions.
You told me some months ago that a 2-3 switch was also suitable. I seem to
recall you said that for battery only operations we could use the ALT
breaker.
Anything wrong with that ?
>
> As I was explaining in my last post, we give up on the cranking feature.
So
> the AUX battery is there ONLY to get a charge from the alternator and run
> the boost pump when required.
>
> Fully one half of your stored electrical energy is
> partitioned off to accomplish but a single task with
> a very rare and tiny energy budget compared to the
> rest of the airplane.
>
Agreed
> In my opinion, this SHOULD simplify power management.
> So there should NOT BE A NECESSITY for an AUX master switch to be turned
ON,
> just like you were saying some months ago.
>
> If I said such a thing, I cannot imagine that it was
> in any context other than the original article I published
> in Sport Aviation and that is: When the aux battery is tiny
> and has no ability to help with cranking the engine, then by
> all means, don't put it on the bus until after the alternator
> comes on line. Management of this battery with a automatic
> aux battery management feature WITH annunciation seems
> perfectly rational.
That's how I understood the system.
>
> If it's your wish not to have
> cranking ability you can save about 0.8 amps of continuous
> load on the alternator by downsizing the contactor to
> a heavy duty relay and you might as well shed some pounds
> by downsizing the battery too.
Yes. That's what we talked about some months ago.
> If you're
> going to put indicators and controls in the airplane that
> are useful to some, then checkout instruction and check
> lists should reveal the same information to everyone
> who flies it. If everything is made known in this manner,
> I don't understand why the third switch and it's associated
> indicator wouldn't take it's rightful place with the other two.
>
ALL the pilots will fly the airplane the same way.
In my opinion, starting the engine with a weak main battery is definitely a
GROUND task, and NOT an INFLIGHT option. No flight should be undertaken
under normal circumstances with a depleted battery on an ELECTRICALLY
DEPENDANT engine.
So the remote location you mentionned for that additionnal switch made
sense.
> However, if I were offered a chance to fly your airplane and
> found out later that I was not offered the same
> information and instruction as the "inner circle"
> I think I'd be pretty put out with you. All we're
> talking about here is where some controls are located
> and how some pilots are told about what they do and
> made aware of all options for their use
>
Ah, that 'inner circle'.....
When I was a teenager I repaired an antique motocycle. On the tank stood a
neat little brass adjustable oil supply, with a small round glass porthole
to watch the oil gushing out of the outlet . In those times you had adjust
the oil flow into the engine.
Now they have made the oil supply automatic, and the pressure relief valve
is adjustable only by qualified personnel. The driver or pilot is left with
only a pressure gauge and alarm light.
What's wrong with the engine oil supply being out of control IN FLIGHT ? And
with the filter by-pass being automatic ?
Joe mechanic is the 'inner circle'.
Well I'm not sure this comparison applies here, but it clearly reflects my
opinion on having things automatic, with just annunciators, and SIMPLE
actions.
Hope I've not upset you,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob999" <bob999(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Slow Blow Fuse |
Just my one cents worth, a slow blow fuse is designed to open up at the same
current rating as a standard similar fuse. A 10 amp fuse is a 10 amp fuse,
however the slow blow fuse extends the time curve for the action to take
place thus allowing the slow blow fuse protection to forgive quick inrush
currents as seen in motor circuits and the like. Therefore as Bob said
"perhaps some flap motors " or similar circuits a slow blow fuse would help
out for the nuisance tripping or blowing of the fuse. Motor circuits are
usually fused at 1.25 - 2.0 time the motor current for this reason. This is
overload protection and short circuit protection combined.
Remember two things need to be accomplished here, short circuit protection
and overcurrent protection. A short will produce several hundred amps for a
short period of time. (Current is limited only by the resistance and the
source's ability to deliver it, Ohms Law) Almost any size fuse within reason
will protect for short circuit, its the equipment and wiring that needs the
overcurrent protection as well as switches in the circuits. Remember it
never hurts to oversize the wire and switches, it only costs a few dollars
more and in the lone run you can rest assured that your wiring is in good
order. I am wiring my 601XL with wire that is at least twice the size that
is needed. Overcurrent protection is the problem, the higher you go above
the FLA (Full Load Amps) of the equipment the less it is limited or
protected for overcurrent. I would recommend staying at the suggested
manufactures rating for protection. However if in your case your wiring is
sized large enough, you might ask the rep if you can go a few amps higher.
Also, most fuses are not rated to operate at 100% of their rating
continuously.
I apologize for giving more than just one cents worth.
Bob Isaacs
N601XL 95% completed and 25% to go!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Slow Blow Fuse
>
> >
> >When I asked the manufacturer what size fuse I should use for the Heated
> >Pitot Tube circuit, he hesitated and then responded that I should use a
Slow
> >Blow Fuse, because the standard fuse would burn out while the pitot tube
was
> >heating up, where a circuit breaker would not nuesance trip.
> >
> >I don't see anything called a "slow blow fuse" on the Aeroelectric site.
> >
> >Where can I get these critters? Will it provide adaquate protection when
> >compared to a CB? Should I use the same rating as I would the CB of
similar
> >size?
>
> You're correct, they don't exist in the plastic, plug-in variety.
> I wire a 100w pitot tube with 14AWG wire and a 15A fuse.
>
> >What other applications would a slow blow fuse be appropriate in to
prevent
> >nuesance fuse shorts?
>
> Perhaps some flap motors . . . this is a pretty rare requirement.
> Up-sizing the wire/fuse sufficiently to prevent nuisance tripping
> is a perfection good alternative.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
> | over the man who cannot read them. |
> | - Mark Twain |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field breaker trips |
>
> > > > >I'm looking for help with diagnosing the cause of a tripped
>alternator
> > >field
> > > > >breaker on a Cherokee 235.
> > >
> > >snip
> > >
>
>
>I checked the field voltage this morning. No discernable output from the
>ammeter between 500-1900 rpm with all possible loads applied. Bus vaoltage
>was about 11.7 - 11.8v with engine off / 11.2 with engine running.
>Field voltage was between 4.4 - 4.55v taken directly off the field terminal
>of the Chrysler alternator.
>
>With only one multimeter I was unable to monitor them both simultaneously.
>The field breaker did not trip during this test.
A with the bus voltage this low, a properly working regulator would
be applying full bus voltage to the alternator. The 4.5 volt reading
suggests the regulator is bad. This does not jive with a tripping
breaker . . .
I'd do a temporary installation of a generic Ford regulator
to see if the alternator comes back alive. If it does, replace
the regulator.
There MAY be something else going on that trips the breaker.
Let's see what happens after the alternator is back up and
running.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gretz aero" <warrengretz(at)gretzaero.com> |
"Avionics-List" ,
"RV-List" ,
"Rocket-List" ,
"AeroElectric-List"
| Subject: | Heated pitot tube prices going up |
Hello Listers,
I just found out that the price of the heated pitot tubes I sell is going up. The
manufacture notified me that beginning at the first of the year the price is
going to increase. I do not know how much yet. I am sure I will have to increase
my price as well when this happens.
I currently have a good supply of both the PH502-12CR and the AN5814 pitot tubes
in stock and will be receiving another batch at the first of next month at the
lower price. My advice is to purchase this item now before the first of the
new year and save some money.
You can order by calling me or place your order on my website at http://www.gretzaero.com I hope to hear from you soon.
Warren Gretz
Gretz Aero
720-308-0010 cell days
303-770-3811 home office, evenings and weekends
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ABMM utilization |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> > I thought we'd agreed on that light.
> >
> > Okay, what are you going to tell ANY pilot about
> > its significance and how to deal with abnormal
> > behavior?
>
>Well isn't it that the the ABMM is dead and the AUX battery isn't getting a
>charge ?
Think about what your pilot's operating handbook would say
about the system. How does a pilot KNOW the aux battery may
not be getting a charge? If the automatic contactor closure
feature is inoperative, the light is the only clue. What
do you tell him to do about it?
>If on the ground, investigate.
>If in flight, continue to destination and fix the module.
How about moving the AUX BAT MASTER switch to ON and see if
you get a light -or- hear the contactor close (meaning it
wasn't closed before) -or- the pump that wasn't running
on the aux battery is now running.
>Should in the meantime the alternator fail or smoke come from under the
>panel, you're left with the main battery to run the E-bus loads PLUS the
>main pump.
>In addition, you still have the redundancy of the remaining capacity of the
>Aux battery to run the boost pump should need arise.
How would this need arise? If this is a boost pump, then
the need happens only if you have failed the engine driven
pump AND run the main battery down on the same flight.
>In the latter case, land at the nearest convenient aerodrome.
>Did I miss something ?
>
> >
> > If you wire the Rotax per Figure Z-16, then your MAIN DC PWR MASTER
> > has OFF/BATT-ONLY/BAT+ALT positions.
>
>
>You told me some months ago that a 2-3 switch was also suitable. I seem to
>recall you said that for battery only operations we could use the ALT
>breaker.
>Anything wrong with that ?
No, that works too.
> >
> > As I was explaining in my last post, we give up on the cranking feature.
>So
> > the AUX battery is there ONLY to get a charge from the alternator and run
> > the boost pump when required.
I understand your choice.
> >
> > Fully one half of your stored electrical energy is
> > partitioned off to accomplish but a single task with
> > a very rare and tiny energy budget compared to the
> > rest of the airplane.
> >
>
>Agreed
>
> > In my opinion, this SHOULD simplify power management.
> > So there should NOT BE A NECESSITY for an AUX master switch to be turned
> > ON, just like you were saying some months ago.
> >
> > If I said such a thing, I cannot imagine that it was
> > in any context other than the original article I published
> > in Sport Aviation and that is: When the aux battery is tiny
> > and has no ability to help with cranking the engine, then by
> > all means, don't put it on the bus until after the alternator
> > comes on line. Management of this battery with a automatic
> > aux battery management feature WITH annunciation seems
> > perfectly rational.
>
>That's how I understood the system.
> > If it's your wish not to have
> > cranking ability you can save about 0.8 amps of continuous
> > load on the alternator by downsizing the contactor to
> > a heavy duty relay and you might as well shed some pounds
> > by downsizing the battery too.
>
>Yes. That's what we talked about some months ago.
>
>
> > If you're
> > going to put indicators and controls in the airplane that
> > are useful to some, then checkout instruction and check
> > lists should reveal the same information to everyone
> > who flies it. If everything is made known in this manner,
> > I don't understand why the third switch and it's associated
> > indicator wouldn't take it's rightful place with the other two.
> >
>
>ALL the pilots will fly the airplane the same way.
>In my opinion, starting the engine with a weak main battery is definitely a
>GROUND task, and NOT an INFLIGHT option. No flight should be undertaken
>under normal circumstances with a depleted battery on an ELECTRICALLY
>DEPENDANT engine.
Not sure how this even feeds into the discussion. I presume
you're planning preventative maintenance that insures your
airplane is fitted with batteries CAPABLE of holding all the
energy around which you've designed the system. If you have
confidence in battery capabilities, then the only time you
would have a problem starting an engine is if you've run the
battery(ies) down . . . this is true whether you are cranking
with one or two batteries.
Once the engine is started, then the alternator has the task
of topping off your stored energy capacity . . . again, it
matters not how many batteries are on line. What are your
plans for advising a pilot about when takeoff is not advised?
Once the alternator comes on line and both batteries are on
line, does it matter WHICH battery is low on charge when
your loadmeter takes a long time to come off the peg after the
engine starts?
>
>
>Ah, that 'inner circle'.....
>When I was a teenager I repaired an antique motocycle. On the tank stood a
>neat little brass adjustable oil supply, with a small round glass porthole
>to watch the oil gushing out of the outlet . In those times you had adjust
>the oil flow into the engine.
>Now they have made the oil supply automatic, and the pressure relief valve
>is adjustable only by qualified personnel. The driver or pilot is left with
>only a pressure gauge and alarm light.
>What's wrong with the engine oil supply being out of control IN FLIGHT ? And
>with the filter by-pass being automatic ?
>Joe mechanic is the 'inner circle'.
>Well I'm not sure this comparison applies here, but it clearly reflects my
>opinion on having things automatic, with just annunciators, and SIMPLE
>actions.
>
>Hope I've not upset you,
Not at all. It wouldn't upset me if you chose to wire your
airplane like a C-172. The goal is to have an airplane that you built,
understand and maintain yourself. Most of our contemporaries conduct
their aviation activities according to other people's rules and have
little understanding of how their airplanes work. I believe
institutionalized ignorance and faith in authority builds
foundations for most of the dark-n-stormy-night stories we've read.
I think the value of fitting an airplane with dual batteries
is pretty clear. It's a good thing if you take advantage of ANY
of those features. How you pick and choose from all that the
architecture offers is most certainly your choice and it's
certainly not necessary that I understand and/or agree with
your choices.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DRE portable intercom available |
| From: | Vince Ackerman <vack(at)teleport.com> |
Is DRE still in business? I've got one of their intercoms and want to
upgrade to allow cell phone communication. I can't find them on the web
and their phone number in San Jose doesn't seem to be to their business
any more.\
Thanks
On Wednesday, May 29, 2002, at 10:19 AM, Sanders, Andrew P wrote:
>
>
> I have a DRE-404e portable intercom I'd like to sell to finance a DRE
> panel
> mount. I thought I'd give the list a chance before putting it on
> E-Bay.
> It's in good shape, works great. Lists for $400 at AS&S and I'm
> reducing my
> asking price from $300 to $250. I'll hold off the auction for a
> couple of
> days if anyone is interested in it.
>
> Andrew
> evenings at 425-788-5209 or
> ap.sand(at)gte.net
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | DRE portable intercom available |
http://www.drecomm.com/
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Vince Ackerman
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 8:02 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DRE portable intercom available
>
>
> -->
>
> Is DRE still in business? I've got one of their intercoms and
> want to
> upgrade to allow cell phone communication. I can't find them
> on the web
> and their phone number in San Jose doesn't seem to be to
> their business
> any more.\
> Thanks
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 29, 2002, at 10:19 AM, Sanders, Andrew P wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I have a DRE-404e portable intercom I'd like to sell to
> finance a DRE
> > panel
> > mount. I thought I'd give the list a chance before putting it on
> > E-Bay.
> > It's in good shape, works great. Lists for $400 at AS&S and I'm
> > reducing my
> > asking price from $300 to $250. I'll hold off the auction for a
> > couple of
> > days if anyone is interested in it.
> >
> > Andrew
> > evenings at 425-788-5209 or
> > ap.sand(at)gte.net
> >
> >
> > _-
> >
> ==============================================================
> =========
> > _-
> >
> ==============================================================
> =========
> > _-
> >
> ==============================================================
> =========
> > _-
> >
> ==============================================================
> =========
> >
> >
>
>
> ============
> Contribution
> Free Gifts!
> ===========
> ===========
> ===========
> Search Engine:
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> ===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>A couple of weeks ago i spoke to you about your volt/loadmeter for my
>murphy rebel.
>i have spoke to westach and they can still supply the instrument. my
>question is what is the external circuit board for ?? westach says
>instrument is self contained and i just wire it up as normal.
>
>regards
>
>mike
Mike, and AeroElectric-List members,
I've opened some dialog with Westach with a proposal
that seems promising. I had a conversation with
Pete at Westach yesterday and a copy of my e-mail to Westach
follows:
-------------------------------
Pete,
Would you be so kind as to download and print the
following data package:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/LM-VM_Data.pdf
Page 11 of this file is the specification control drawing
that defined the original instrument which I belive is
your part number A02DA10-59.
There are several unique features of my original product that
drove the design.
(1) it offers an expanded scale voltmeter that covers only
the meaningful range of bus and battery voltages for airplanes.
(2) it offers an alternator loadmeter that is tailored by
shunt selection to any size alternator . . . further, the
single instrument can be switched between multiple alternators.
(See page 9 of the installation instructions).
(3) it automatically switches the voltmeter from the main
bus (normal operations) to the endurance-bus (battery only
operations) via relay K106 on the board.
(4) it offers a low voltage warning light that provides
nearly instantaneous notification of alternator failure.
It occurs to me that resurrecting my product in addition
to Westach's addition of an expanded-scale-voltmeter/loadmeter
to their product line dilutes the potential for both
products.
Consider this:
I am about to add a low voltage warning module on my website.
IF Westach were to bring this instrument back in a stand-alone
form (see last page of the data package) with finer control
over calibration, then except for the e-bus changeover relay,
the combination of the new instrument from Westach and
the LV Warning module from AeroElectric Connection
will cover all but one of the features offered by my original
product.
If you could adjust the voltmeter to +/- 0.1 volt accuracy
over displayed range at room temperature, I think I could
whole-heartedly endorse the product as equal to or better
than the product I used to offer. In this case, I would
certainly steer my customers to Westach for the instrument
and would consider buying in quantities to add to my
website catalog.
This would require Westach to hold a little tighter
calibration than usual on the voltmeter but it would
eliminate the need to offer two different but functionally
similar instruments.
If Westach responds favorably to this proposal,
we'll have a replacment for the original VLM-14
system I offered and it will probably be less
expensive.
Mike, I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
You can join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Capacitance Fuel Quantity Systems |
>
>11/2/2002 and again 11/12/2002
>
>Hello Bob Nuckolls, Can I please get some education on capacitance fuel
>quantity systems? I'll list some questions, but please feel free to
>extemporize (keeping in mind that my electrical / electronic knowledge is
>extremely limited).
I hadn't forgotten you sir . . . a proper reply to this
will take a bit of wordsmithing and I don't think I
can get to it before the weekend. I have another
lengthy dissertation to do on "slow blow" fuses
and widely distributed but poorly understood
rules-of-thumb for fuse, wire and switch
protection.
Watch this space.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Thanks & pictures |
I would like to say a big thanks to all of you on the list. Of course I have to
call out Bob individually for his help. I have received a first rate education
on designing and building aircraft electrical systems here and can only say
good things about the information and discussions. Let's all keep up the good
work.
My small part back is in the form of detailed pictures of my book stock Z11 electrical
system. Main bus, E-Bus, Battery bus, single alternator, Day/Night/VFR
system.
http://www.karmy.com/rv9a/pictures/fuselage/electrical/index.htm
No smoke even escaped when I powered it all up!
Now it's off to fiberglass land to finish up the details...
- Andy Karmy
RV9A Seattle WA
andy(at)karmy.com
http://www.karmy.com/rv9a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | B&C alternator pulley size |
Bob,
On the ND alternator that B&C sells, what is the diameter of the pulley?
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thanks & pictures |
Andy,
I was thinking of trying to install an electrical plug in the base of both control
sticks on my RV-8A. While perusing your web site, I see that you have already
done it. Can you give me the details? What make and model electrical plug
fits in there? TIA
Charlie Kuss
>
>I would like to say a big thanks to all of you on the list. Of course I have to
call out Bob individually for his help. I have received a first rate education
on designing and building aircraft electrical systems here and can only say
good things about the information and discussions. Let's all keep up the good
work.
>
>My small part back is in the form of detailed pictures of my book stock Z11 electrical
system. Main bus, E-Bus, Battery bus, single alternator, Day/Night/VFR
system.
>
>http://www.karmy.com/rv9a/pictures/fuselage/electrical/index.htm
>
>No smoke even escaped when I powered it all up!
>
>Now it's off to fiberglass land to finish up the details...
>
>- Andy Karmy
> RV9A Seattle WA
> andy(at)karmy.com
> http://www.karmy.com/rv9a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator pulley size |
>
>Bob,
> On the ND alternator that B&C sells, what is the diameter of the pulley?
>Charlie Kuss
See:
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/L40-out.PDF
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/L60-out.PDF
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
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-Bruce B.
It helps on a daily basis.
-Tim G.
Thanks for providing this outstanding service to us!
-Michel T.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Ed's Lancair ES-System Planning |
>Bob:
>
> Finished my annual A300 check ride this past Sunday. Now I am
> ready for your comments on my second pass that I sent about three weeks
> ago. However, I know your busy, so my goal is to have this wirebook done
> and hardware bought before the Feb seminar. That way I can bring my
> cradle as a prop for others to see, and my craftsmanship can be quality
> checked for what I have done thus far.
>
>Question:
>
> Knowing that I fly the A300 Airbus and up to speed on the
> electrical system. Can my electrical system be somewhat like the A300;
> i.e., Dual Alt, Dual Bat. #1 Alt running Main DC #1, #2 Alt running the
> Main DC #2, Main Bat Bus, Alt Bat Bus. Equal Amp Alternators with a
> bustie if anyone alternator fails. Each alternator would be able to run
> the entire system. The Batteries would be the backup and emergency
> bus. What do you think? Or I'm I going to the extreme?
How would you change Figure Z-14? What failure modes do you anticipate
that something called an "emergency bus" would be needed? I'm not
trying to yank your chain, just get you to think about what needs
to be done and what all the consequences are for doing it. I would
suggest we start with Figure Z-14 and identify any shortcomings
so that they can be rectified. Bottom line is that you can wire
your airplane any way you wish. I'm just encouraging you to have
well thought out reasons for what the ultimate configuration is.
>Getting ready to closeout my left wing, so I am looking at running wire
>for the pitot heat which is rated at 10 amps according to this Lancair ES
>manual. Its about 17 feet from where the pitot is located and once inside
>the fuselage, it would be another 6 feet approximately to the switch. I
>saw the article on the slow fuse. Looking at the charts Lancair has in the
>manual it shows 12 gauge wire. Should I upgrade to the 14 gauge? And now
>that I am learning about running wire, what does the temp curve mean? and
>Lancair has two curve lines, one for alone and one for bundle. How does
>this affect it? If you wish I can transfer these questions to the forum.
12AWG is fine. Leave it in. 12AWG can be fused at up
to 20A, we won't need to go that high and 12AWG will
give you a lower voltage drop than 14AWG.
I'm finishing up a task for RAC that should be pretty
well wrapped up today. I'll get back onto some fun things
this evening or tomorrow. I'll echo this note to the
list . ..
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Thanks & pictures |
In a message dated 11/13/02 2:52:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, andy(at)karmy.com
writes:
<< http://www.karmy.com/rv9a/pictures/fuselage/electrical/index.htm
>>
Thanks for the pictures Andy. Nice work. Question, where did you find the
amber and green annunciator lights, all I can find in that size and style are
red?
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, electrical stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Thanks & pictures |
Right down at my local Radio Shack aviation isle... They are small LED indicators.
- Andy
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
>Thanks for the pictures Andy. Nice work. Question, where did you find the
>amber and green annunciator lights, all I can find in that size and style are
>red?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | gauge wire for Ray Allen trim servos |
Anyone:
The trim servos have wires coming out of them which is 26 gauge. I
have the harness for the pitch and yaw trim servo's, but the aileron trim
servo only has two wires. This is because the aileron of the Lancair ES is so
small there was no room for a normal size servo which has wires for the LED
indicator. The two wires coming out of this servo are 26 gauge. Based on the
location of the servo and the routing the wire must go to get to the
instrument panel, I believe it would be about 25-30 feet. The Lancair manual
says that the trim system is 5amps. Is this for the whole trim system? This
cannot be just for one servo, can it? I would think it would be more like
.5-1.0 amps. Looking at the chart, it looks like 12-14 gauge wire at 5amps@30
feet. I hope I am wrong because I just bought 100 feet of 26 gauge wire.
Ed Lancair ES
N823MS(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tammy and Mike Salzman <arrow54t(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: gauge wire for Ray Allen trim servos |
--- N823ms(at)aol.com wrote:
The Lancair manual says that the trim system is 5amps. Is this for
the whole trim system?
I measured a 6A servo no-load operating current at 120 mA,about 250 mA
with a nominal load. It appears that they are referring to the circuit
breaker/fuse size needs to be 5 amps.
> Looking at the chart, it looks like 12-14 gauge wire at
> 5amps@30
> feet. I hope I am wrong because I just bought 100 feet of 26 gauge
> wire.
Be sure to use the intermittent flow chart Figure 11-3. Since you will
have the ground wire to worry about in a fiberglas airplane, you need
to look at 60 feet instead of 30. If you select 60 feet and use the 1
amp line (lowest amperage drawn on the chart), dropping down shows that
you can use 22 AWG wire. I'm not sure if 26 AWG wire would drop too
much voltage. It would probably be okay, I don't think the servos are
that voltage sensitive. If you wanted to find out, you would need to
find the resistance of the length of wire and calculate using E=IR. AC
43.13-1B only goes down to 24 AWG in the chart of wire resistance.
Maybe someone on the list would be able to provide that information to
you.
Mike Salzman
LNCE
Fairfield, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | gauge wire for Ray Allen trim servos |
The 26 AWG should work fine. The 5A is required only some of the time.
For my money I am looking at Cat 5e computer cable. It has 8 wires of 24g all shielded
and color coded. If you use all the wires it carries 16A . And it's readily
available and cheap. Can't beat that with a stick.
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wire size supply |
Bob:
Knowing that I am building a Lancair ES, do I have to double the
length to find the right gauge wire since I have to run a ground wire? Or is
the chart in the Lancair manual account for that? In your opinion, what
common gauges should I order and how much? From the spinner to tail it is 25
feet and has a wing span of 35 feet. Would 50 or 100 foot rolls be adequate?
I believe I can order this through aeroelectric.
Regards,
Ed
Lancair ES
N823MS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen trim servos |
>
>
>
>--- N823ms(at)aol.com wrote:
> The Lancair manual says that the trim system is 5amps. Is this for
>the whole trim system?
The Ray Allen servos draw less than 0.5A full load. And, yes,
much to my dismay they do wire their product with ()#*$%)(U(%Z
too small of wire. I've had numerous discussions with them
at their booth at OSH and over the phone. Seldom have
I encountered such a lack of understanding and unwillingness
to accommodate from a supplier of parts to the OBAM market.
To install it in your airplane, you can ignore the wire size
they use. Further, it's a good idea to question anyone's recommendations
for breaker size unless they're willing and able to explain
the rational for the recommendation.
First, I wouldn't recommend wiring anything in your airplane
with less than 22AWG wire. We recently included 24AWG in production
wire bundles and the folks on the production line have nothing
good to say about it. 22AWG is the practical lower limit for
size strictly from viewpoint of working with the wire.
If you use 22AWG a 5A breaker is obviously appropriate for
protection of the wire. However, based on current draw of
the actuator and the use of some smaller wires in the system
I recommend a 1A fuse.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Eric-
Finally got some Data on the LVWABMM.
I can't seem to break this thing; once I did get it to mis-behave, but it
still works great!
What I did:
Set up a load to draw 5A from a 12 Volt Supply
Wrote a program to vary the voltage output from an HP6624A System Supply
Start at 13.50 Volts and step down in 0.05V increments until "relay" pulled
in.
Note that voltage.
Step back up in 0.05 Volt increments until relay dropped out
Note that voltage
Put the above in a loop and vary the Chamber temperature from -25C to +45C
The Trip value was 12.65V at all Temps. The Reset value was 13.00V from -25C
to 25C
and increased to 13.05V for 35C and 45C
Temp rise of the potted unit was so small, I chose not to instrument it.
The one time I got it to mis-behave was when I pulled the bus-monitor lead
off, while
the "relay" was pulled on and showing about 8A of current draw. (I pulled
the wrong lead).
When I increased the load resistor, to drop the current a little, and
powered back on, the "relay" did not draw any current and the light was not
blinking. This was at the end of a long day, so I shut it all down, and went
home.
To my pleasant surprise, everything worked correctly the next day.
My only suggestion for improvement would be some ears for mounting.
(personally would prefer
an un-potted version, but that's just me)
Thanks for all your efforts in bringing this device to market. It looks like
a winner !!
Rolf
RV6 builder (Electronic Test Engineer)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 12 Ah battery anyone? |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Guys, I'm doing the "All electric on a budget" setup for my -8A, and with dual alternators I don't expect to ever find myself flying on battery power only. So the biggest demand and need for a battery will be in starting. I'm wondering if I can downsize from the 16Ah Odyssey that a lot of folks are using now to something even smaller like the 12-13 Ah batteries sold by Odyssey, B&C, and others. They still have the same attachment hardware so they should be just as robust but they weigh several pounds less. The cranking amps are a bit less too depending on temperature (you can see a comparison chart on Odyssey's website at: http://www.odysseyfactory.com/specs.htm). Looks like the CCA in a worst case scenario is about 75% of the larger 16Ah battery.
Anyone out there tried a battery like this and have good luck with it for starting?
BTW I'm using Lightspeeds and a Sky-Tec starter (but no primer system) so
my starts should be pretty snappy...)
Thanks and have a good, safe weekend everybody.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...fiberglass...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Fw: RV-List: 12 Ah battery anyone? |
This was on RV-list, so I'm also posting on AeroElectric List
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: 12 Ah battery anyone?
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch"
>
> Ed,
>
> My opinion is that with dual electronic ignitions you should have two
> independent batteries that can each be isolated from the electrical
system.
> Why? Say you have a massive ground fault that takes out the entire
> electrical system--2 alternators are not going to help this situation.
The
> procedure here would be to turn off both batteries (and alternators) thus
> leaving one or both batteries dedicated to the ignition systems. One
> battery could be taken out by the ground fault momentarily if it is
> connected to the essential bus per Bob Nuckoll's design, but would soon
blow
> the fuselink. If the fault were not on the essential bus, one battery
could
> be dedicated to the essential bus and the other to the ignition systems.
> And you could continue your flight to a safe landing.
>
> You could also have a seperate dedicated battery for the ignition systems
> but you would have to have a way to monitor its voltage.
>
> Pat Hatch
> RV-4, N17PH, 700 hrs
> O-320, Hartzell C/S
> RV-6, N44PH, 35 hrs
> O-360, Hartzell C/S
> Vero Beach, FL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
> To:
> Subject: RE: RV-List: 12 Ah battery anyone?
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Ed Holyoke
> >
> > Just curious Mark,
> >
> > If I read it right, you're using dual lightspeeds. Do you feel OK about
> > having only one battery? I've been wondering if it's safe to run dual
> > elec ignitions from one power source for my airplane too. If an
> > alternator gives out you've got another, but what if a battery cable
> > loosens up? I've been thinking about a couple of small batteries
> > crossfed for starting. Any opinions out there?
> >
> > Ed Holyoke
> > 6 QB (slow)
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> > > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of czechsix(at)juno.com
> > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:48 PM
> > > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com; aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > > Subject: RV-List: 12 Ah battery anyone?
> > >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: czechsix(at)juno.com
> > >
> > > Guys, I'm doing the "All electric on a budget" setup for my -8A, and
> > with
> > > dual alternators I don't expect to ever find myself flying on battery
> > > power only. So the biggest demand and need for a battery will be in
> > > starting. I'm wondering if I can downsize from the 16Ah Odyssey that
> > a
> > > lot of folks are using now to something even smaller like the 12-13 Ah
> > > batteries sold by Odyssey, B&C, and others. They still have the same
> > > attachment hardware so they should be just as robust but they weigh
> > > several pounds less. The cranking amps are a bit less too depending
> > on
> > > temperature (you can see a comparison chart on Odyssey's website at:
> > > http://www.odysseyfactory.com/specs.htm). Looks like the CCA in a
> > worst
> > > case scenario is about 75% of the larger 16Ah battery.
> > >
> > > Anyone out there tried a battery like this and have good luck with it
> > for
> > > starting? BTW I'm using Lightspeeds and a Sky-Tec starter (but no
> > primer
> > > system) so my starts should be pretty snappy...)
> > >
> > > Thanks and have a good, safe weekend everybody.
> > >
> > > --Mark Navratil
> > > Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> > > RV-8A N2D finishing...fiberglass...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ==
> > Contribution
> > Gifts!
> > > _->
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen trim servos & Stick connections. |
Bob - this is timely for me since I am just starting to sketch out the
wiring of an RV9 I am building.
I bought a Ray Allen stick grip with the switches on top. I was slightly
surprised to see the same fine wires as used on the servo supplied for this.
They indicate the switches and by implication the wires will handle 5amps.
I was planning to put
a) the trim
b) PTT
c) Navaid quick disconnect (power to the servo) through the stick. (Not
sure what this might be drawing - 2 or 3 amps max.?)
d) This results in about 7 wires (from memory)
I could use a heavier gauge wire but it might be very hard to get it all in,
and also I worry it would put 'friction' in the stick movement.
So my questions are:
1) Would you consider using these fine wires in such an application just up
and down the stick to a barrier block near by? (Then thicker wire as you
discussed.)
2) Do you feel a relay to break the Navaid supply is essential?
3) What is the best way to get the wires 'off' the stick. I have seen two
approaches:
a) Making the longest loop possible and let it hang down as far as possible
and then over to a grommet (ensuring full stick movement.)
b) Take it first onto spanwise tube connecting the two sticks using just
enough wire to allow for full aileron movement and then from as close to the
rotation point of that tube onto the structure this time allowing for
elevator movement.
It seems the endless movement of these wires must be a weakness in any
aircraft and I want them to be 'happy' but I do not want to feel that they
are there!
Thanks, Steve.
RV9a
N Yorks., UK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ray Allen trim servos
>
>
>
>--- N823ms(at)aol.com wrote:
> The Lancair manual says that the trim system is 5amps. Is this for
>the whole trim system?
The Ray Allen servos draw less than 0.5A full load. And, yes,
much to my dismay they do wire their product with ()#*$%)(U(%Z
too small of wire. I've had numerous discussions with them
at their booth at OSH and over the phone. Seldom have
I encountered such a lack of understanding and unwillingness
to accommodate from a supplier of parts to the OBAM market.
To install it in your airplane, you can ignore the wire size
they use. Further, it's a good idea to question anyone's
recommendations
for breaker size unless they're willing and able to explain
the rational for the recommendation.
First, I wouldn't recommend wiring anything in your airplane
with less than 22AWG wire. We recently included 24AWG in production
wire bundles and the folks on the production line have nothing
good to say about it. 22AWG is the practical lower limit for
size strictly from viewpoint of working with the wire.
If you use 22AWG a 5A breaker is obviously appropriate for
protection of the wire. However, based on current draw of
the actuator and the use of some smaller wires in the system
I recommend a 1A fuse.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DWENSING(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen trim servos |
In a message dated 11/15/02 10:37:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> The Ray Allen servos draw less than 0.5A full load. And, yes,
> much to my dismay they do wire their product with ()#*$%)(U(%Z
> too small of wire.
While I agree with Bob's opinion on the wire size-it is difficult to work
with- I have a 15 year old OBAM with the MAC/Ray Allen servo and wiring and
have had no problem with it.
Dale in NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | wire sizes for ES |
Knowing that I am building a Lancair ES, do I have to double the
length to find the right gauge wire since I have to run a ground wire?
I am running a single 14-gage(approximate) ground braid out the trailing
edge of my ES. I'm not sure if that is adequate gage, but I think it is. I
will have a 55-watt landing light, nav light and pitot heat in the wingtip
that will share the ground.
Gary Casey
ES project
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Robinson <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: starter solenoids |
Bob
I am trying to finish up my airplane and ran into a couple of questions.
1. I am using the 2 batteries 2 alternator configuation on my Glasair. My question
is: Does it matter if the starter solenoid is mounted on the same plate
that the x-feed , and battery contactors are mounted on? And this needs to be
grounded to energize the starter contactor. I guess my question better stated
is: Does it matter if the x-feed/battery solenoids are case grounded? Is there
a failure mode that this could be a problem?
2.We are having problems with the Sky-Tek starter turring over. It was a good
starter when I bought it. I doesn't turn over at all and we have verified 12
vlts at the starter. It has a second spade connector next to the main pwr lug
that we don't know what it is for. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Jim Robinson N79R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen trim servos |
Is it practical to use phone or computer-network type jacks and
connectors (RJ-45?) to deal with these tiny wires? Or aren't they
hearty enough?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of DWENSING(at)aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:12 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ray Allen trim servos
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/15/02 10:37:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
>
> > The Ray Allen servos draw less than 0.5A full load. And, yes,
> > much to my dismay they do wire their product with ()#*$%)(U(%Z
> > too small of wire.
>
> While I agree with Bob's opinion on the wire size-it is
> difficult to work
> with- I have a 15 year old OBAM with the MAC/Ray Allen servo
> and wiring and
> have had no problem with it.
> Dale in NC
________________________________________________________________________________
Bob:
It has been mentioned that a ground wire braid be used as a common
ground out the leading edge, Lancair ES, for the nav/strobe lights. Is this
good, or should you run separate wires for each component? Is a 14 gauge wire
OK? I will also have a NAV antenna in each wing tip, is RG-58 Belden coax
cable OK?
Ed
N823MS
Lancair ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | LOC Coming Soon... |
Dear Listers,
This year's List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner. I'll be
posting the LOC on or about December 1. The List of Contributors is a
directory of everyone's name that made a Contribution during this year's
List Fund Raiser. Its kind of my way of publicly thanking everyone that so
generously made a Contribution to support the continued operation and
upgrade of these Lists.
Support your Lists today and make sure that your name is on the upcoming
LOC! Your friends will be checking no doubt to see if YOU make your
Contribution because THEY did! :-)
Support Contribution Info - http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Weekend seminars |
> Hi Bob,
>Would you recommend a weekend seminar to a builder that knows absolutely
>nothing about electricity? Would i be overwhelmed and completely cost?
>thanks for your time.
The seminar doesn't concentrate so much on the "electricity"
as it does on how things work in pretty simple terms and
how to select parts for use in your airplane. In any case,
attending one of our seminars is risk free. If you don't think
you received your money's worth, just let me know what is was
worth to you and that's the amount you'll be charged.
If you haven't done so already, I'll invite you
to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
You can join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob:
>
> It has been mentioned that a ground wire braid be used as a common
>ground out the leading edge, Lancair ES, for the nav/strobe lights. Is this
>good, or should you run separate wires for each component? Is a 14 gauge wire
>OK? I will also have a NAV antenna in each wing tip, is RG-58 Belden coax
>cable OK?
>
>Ed
>N823MS
>Lancair ES
Each device should enjoy its own ground wire. There
is little savings of labor and weight to do the common
ground. Once you share grounds, the loss of one connection
has a uniformly deleterious effect on everything that
shares the ground.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorto1537(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Electrical system drawings posted |
Just in case anyone is interested, I've posted my work-in-progress
electrical system drawings on-line.
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album01
Hopefully this long URL won't get split into two lines - if it does
you must copy and paste it back into one piece.
Or, just got to: http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8 Then
select the Electrical System link over on the left side, and you
should be able to figure it out from there.
I know there are probably inconsistencies between some of the
drawings. And some drawings are not yet complete, so they haven't
been posted. I'm not looking for comments - these are just part of
my RV-8 web site that I thought some members of this list might be
interested in.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (baffles, induction air, oil cooler)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen trim servos |
>
>In a message dated 11/15/02 10:37:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
>
> > The Ray Allen servos draw less than 0.5A full load. And, yes,
> > much to my dismay they do wire their product with ()#*$%)(U(%Z
> > too small of wire.
>
>While I agree with Bob's opinion on the wire size-it is difficult to work
>with- I have a 15 year old OBAM with the MAC/Ray Allen servo and wiring and
>have had no problem with it.
Didn't mean to imply that anyone would have "trouble" with
properly installed wire of any size. Perhaps I was unclear
in trying to dispel a notion that seemed to rise from
the MAC servo discussions: just because the device is
fitted with unusually small lead wires from the factory in
no way obligates the builder to use the same size wire
to extend the leads for remainder of the installation.
I added anecdotal information about RAC having decided to use
substantial quantities of 24AWG wire in general airframe wire bundles
where electrical requirements would allow it. I submitted
that the folks who have worked with wires all their careers
have not embraced the smaller wire as a good idea from
the perspective of those who install and maintain wires.
In their estimation, it's more difficult to do a "good job"
with the smaller wire and therefore, more likely that if
craftsmanship related issues for wiring in these airplanes
do arise, the likelihood of problems is greater for the
smaller wires.
When I confronted the MAC servo guys at OSH, they held
me at arm's length by stating, "Gee, we don't see a
problem. We recommend and even offer to sell a really
neat little miniature connector that works just fine
with our lead wires."
I couldn't get them to understand that the issue was
never about the performance or quality of their
product and installation materials in the hands
of folks who made a career of working with these
materials. For 99% of their customers, installation
of one of those miniature 5-pin DIN connector with
a soldering iron was going to be a once-in-a-lifetime
event. I've put dozens of those critters on. I can
do a pretty good job and reasonably expect good
performance but I still don't LIKE them. I offered
that it was an unreasonable burden to place on the skills
and patience of their primary customer base, the
OBAM aircraft builder, a burden easily lifted with
conversion to a larger but still quite satisfactory
wire size.
If I were to adopt my perception of MAC's
attitude toward all of you, the tutorial for soldering
in our planned hands-on workshops would start out
with an etched circuit board, a thimble full of
surface mount components the size of fly-droppings
and a microscope to properly observe the results
of your labors. How practical would that seem in the
real world of developing products and services for
the OBAM market?
It boils down to a simple supplier/customer
disconnect and as I've often cited it's the supplier's
duty to remedy those issues for the betterment of
both. However, as responsible customers, we also have
a duty to rag them politely but firmly about their
shortcomings.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Tiny wire technologies for use on airplanes? |
>
>Is it practical to use phone or computer-network type jacks and
>connectors (RJ-45?) to deal with these tiny wires? Or aren't they
>hearty enough?
I've considered these products for a number of years.
When you look at some of the nasty environments that they
seem to survive in, it seems that they might be okay for
airplanes. I've seen telephones in plating shops (moist,
corrosive atmospheres), machine shops (oily dust) and
outdoors (moist, temperature cycles and dust), etc.
I think there's a TSO'd ELT that uses RJ connectors
and ordinary telephone wire as part of the installation.
Sooo . . . I wouldn't discourage you from trying it.
I'm considering it for black-box to black-box wiring for
serial data cables and for very low power and control
requirements . . . in these cases, connections to wires
are always made with crimp tools onto flat-bundles. Mating
connectors are always soldered to etched circuit boards.
I think the risks are low and in some cases, convenience
is high.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: starter solenoids |
>
>
>Bob
>
>I am trying to finish up my airplane and ran into a couple of questions.
>
>1. I am using the 2 batteries 2 alternator configuation on my
>Glasair. My question is: Does it matter if the starter solenoid is
>mounted on the same plate that the x-feed , and battery contactors are
>mounted on? And this needs to be grounded to energize the starter
>contactor. I guess my question better stated is: Does it matter if the
>x-feed/battery solenoids are case grounded? Is there a failure mode that
>this could be a problem?
No.
>2.We are having problems with the Sky-Tek starter turring over. It was a
>good starter when I bought it. I doesn't turn over at all and we have
>verified 12 vlts at the starter. It has a second spade connector next to
>the main pwr lug that we don't know what it is for. Any thoughts?
I'd have to see how the lug is attached? Does it look like it
goes inside the solenoid for an independent connection or
is it obvious that it makes electrical connection with the adjacent
main power lug? Have you talked with Sky-Tek?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wire sizes for ES |
>
>Knowing that I am building a Lancair ES, do I have to double the
>length to find the right gauge wire since I have to run a ground wire?
I think I understand your question. Yes, when considering VOLTAGE
DROP for the device you are powering, you need to account for the
total length of wire used to power the device which is generally about
2x the length of wire used in a metal airplane where the device
might take advantage of a local ground.
>I am running a single 14-gage(approximate) ground braid out the trailing
>edge of my ES. I'm not sure if that is adequate gage, but I think it is. I
>will have a 55-watt landing light, nav light and pitot heat in the wingtip
>that will share the ground.
I wouldn't do this on my airplane but it will function okay if
you do it on your airplane. I would try to avoid single points
of failure in wiring that might affect more than one system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Stick connections. |
>
>
>Bob - this is timely for me since I am just starting to sketch out the
>wiring of an RV9 I am building.
>
>I bought a Ray Allen stick grip with the switches on top. I was slightly
>surprised to see the same fine wires as used on the servo supplied for this.
>They indicate the switches and by implication the wires will handle 5amps.
They are probably RATED at 5A, and similarly 22AWG wire is RATED for
5A in wire bundles . . . this is separate from what the system might
truly need for normal operation.
>I was planning to put
>a) the trim
>b) PTT
>c) Navaid quick disconnect (power to the servo) through the stick. (Not
>sure what this might be drawing - 2 or 3 amps max.?)
Use a relay to carry power and use stick grip
switches to control relay.
>d) This results in about 7 wires (from memory)
>
>I could use a heavier gauge wire but it might be very hard to get it all in,
>and also I worry it would put 'friction' in the stick movement.
Stay with the small wire.
>So my questions are:
>1) Would you consider using these fine wires in such an application just up
>and down the stick to a barrier block near by? (Then thicker wire as you
>discussed.)
I wouldn't use barrier strips (threaded fasteners . . . UGH!). A
d-sub connector would be a good way to make the transition from
tiny-wires to handy-wires, something like
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html
In the next to the last image, tiny-wires are running out to
the servo, handy-wires run to the rest of the system. In this
case, tiny-wires might run up your control stick, handy-wires
run from an UN-modified d-sub mounted to a bracket near
lower end of the control stick.
>2) Do you feel a relay to break the Navaid supply is essential?
yes
>3) What is the best way to get the wires 'off' the stick. I have seen two
>approaches:
>a) Making the longest loop possible and let it hang down as far as possible
>and then over to a grommet (ensuring full stick movement.)
>b) Take it first onto spanwise tube connecting the two sticks using just
>enough wire to allow for full aileron movement and then from as close to the
>rotation point of that tube onto the structure this time allowing for
>elevator movement.
>
>It seems the endless movement of these wires must be a weakness in any
>aircraft and I want them to be 'happy' but I do not want to feel that they
>are there!
Even if you made these wires 22AWG, you wouldn't "feel" them. The
mechanical advantage of stick length above the pivot versus
length below the pivot will prevent this. A bigger wire is not
less prone to flex-failure . . . rather the opposite is true.
See chapter on wire.
At Cessna, about 1968, we did some studies in the experimental
shop to show suitability of certain wires to take trim and
PTT lines off the control yoke tube onto some point on the
airframe. Taking a cue from what we knew about the relative
robustness of welding cable with respect to flexing (a bizillion
strands of copper cat hair) we looked around for handy-wire
with similar characteristics.
I seem to recall the lucky supplier was a product called
"Spectra Strip" (now part of Amphenol but don't recall if
they were back then) had a ribbon cable with exceedingly
fine stranding. Seems each conductor was 105 strands of
very fine wire used to make up a 26AWG conductor . . . small
but still usable. We put tiny PIDG terminals on each strand
and tied them off on miniature barrier strips.
We set up a test to exercise a control yoke mockup over
full cycles of pitch and roll for over a million cycles
with no evidence that the wire had degraded in any way.
Now, what does this mean for the average OBAM aircraft
builder? Not much I suspect. If you use ordinary 22AWG
aircraft wire (19-strand) and make your transistion from
the stick to airframe with a generous radius (6") and
attention to support so that the slack doesn't rub the
airframe, I sincerely doubt that you'll experience any
difficulties with this wire over the time you own the
airplane . . . and let's suppose it DOES break a strand
in, say the next ten years . . . how bit a deal is is
to diagnose and refurbish for another ten-years of service?
I think I'd use 22AWG and if possible try to make
the transition from moving controls to airframe in
a way that tends to twist/untwist a bundle as opposed
to flexing it. I'd also try to take as much advantage as
possible of machined-pin, d-subs for interconnection
but whatever you decided to do, don't spend much time
worrying about it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | The elusive "massive fault" |
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch"
> >
> > Ed,
> >
> > My opinion is that with dual electronic ignitions you should have two
> > independent batteries that can each be isolated from the electrical
>system.
> > Why? Say you have a massive ground fault that takes out the entire
> > electrical system--2 alternators are not going to help this situation.
>
> > The procedure here would be to turn off both batteries (and
> alternators) thus
> > leaving one or both batteries dedicated to the ignition systems.
That's how all of the published dual-battery systems are intended
to work . . .
> One
> > battery could be taken out by the ground fault momentarily if it is
> > connected to the essential bus per Bob Nuckoll's design, but would soon
> > blow the fuselink. If the fault were not on the essential bus, one battery
>could
> > be dedicated to the essential bus and the other to the ignition systems.
> > And you could continue your flight to a safe landing.
Multiple ignitions should be distributed between the two
batteries. During alternator out operations, the ignition
that runs from the main battery could be shut off for maximizing
endurance without materially changing engine performance and
without giving up the redundancy of two ignition systems.
> >
> > You could also have a seperate dedicated battery for the ignition systems
> > but you would have to have a way to monitor its voltage.
> >
The much worried about but very elusive "massive fault" has
lurked around for years. As an intellectual exercise, pick
up any combination of implements and consider how and where you
would hammer, saw, pry or bend on your airplane to produce
a "massive fault" . . . and once you have produced this condition,
explain how the situation might be duplicated in the course
of operating your airplane. There are lots of potential "massive
faults" that can occur in other systems too . . . how about parted
control cables, sheared wing bolts, cracked prop shafts, etc. etc.
We've observed and studied the design and service history of
all critical components in airframe designs for very nearly
100 years. The state of the art and science has demonstrated
that certain design and construction techniques produce reliability
levels such that nobody but the terribly paranoid worries about
wings falling off or props flying taking a piece of engine
with them.
If one has an electrically dependent engine with dual batteries
whether or not dual alternators are involved, the first thing
to do if the engine stumbles is shut off all battery master
switches which isolates the batteries and their dedicated busses
from 98% of the rest of the system. Even if the "massive fault"
were to manifest itself, the probability of it taking your
electrically dependent engine down entirely is extremely remote.
This is why you don't see ANL current limiters included in the
battery feeds of certified light aircraft. In 100 years and
perhaps as many as 400-500 thousand total airframes, there is
no compelling, demonstrated reason to have one. The elusive
"massive fault" just doesn't happen.
Except . . . a friend of mine once noted during a
conversation about accident investigation: bizjets that
eject the battery in a crash seldom catch fire while most
airplanes that do catch fire still had the battery aboard.
He hypothesized that the battery may well have been the
major ignition source for the fires. So . . . I will
concede that if you hit the side of the mountain, that
the probability of a hard fault is indeed quite high.
Dave, thanks for cross posting this. Please relay this
response back to the RV-List . . .
RV-List members, please consider joining the AeroElectric-List
too and conducting your electrical/electronics issues there
. . . yeah, I know, it's some MORE e-mail traffic to
wade through each day but . . . consider that I had to
form the AeroElectric-List and leave about a dozen other
lists when my traffic pushed 200-300 items a day that had
to be combed for electrical systems issues . . I physically
did not have the time. The other benefit is that these
issues are not unique to RV's or any other airplane. Exploring
options and answers on an electrical/electronics list has
the probability of serving a wider segment of the OBAM aircraft
community.
I miss all you guys and it's especially hard to hear about
folks agonizing over things that don't need to be agonized
over. You've all got better things to do with your time
and effort as builders than to indulge in a lot of
intellectual wheel spinning.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 12 Ah battery anyone? |
>
>Guys, I'm doing the "All electric on a budget" setup for my -8A, and with
>dual alternators I don't expect to ever find myself flying on battery
>power only. So the biggest demand and need for a battery will be in
>starting. I'm wondering if I can downsize from the 16Ah Odyssey that a
>lot of folks are using now to something even smaller like the 12-13 Ah
>batteries sold by Odyssey, B&C, and others. They still have the same
>attachment hardware so they should be just as robust but they weigh
>several pounds less. The cranking amps are a bit less too depending on
>temperature (you can see a comparison chart on Odyssey's website at:
>http://www.odysseyfactory.com/specs.htm). Looks like the CCA in a worst
>case scenario is about 75% of the larger 16Ah battery.
If you're really hard over on weight savings, then what you propose
is quite doable and practical.
>Anyone out there tried a battery like this and have good luck with it for
>starting? BTW I'm using Lightspeeds and a Sky-Tec starter (but no primer
>system) so my starts should be pretty snappy...)
Give it a try . . . it can't do anything worse than fall
short of your expectations. Personally, I'd stay with
the 18 ah battery for one reason . . . cost of ownership.
This particular form factor of RG battery is so popular
and made by so many different companies that they've become
available from lots of sources and at attractive prices.
I think the opportunities for lowering cost of ownership
with the 18 ah package are a better. However, what you propose
is a grand experiment and we'd all like to know of the
outcome should you choose to go that route.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Robinson <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: starter solenoids |
Thanks Bob
The solenoid question was the most important. We solved the starter prob.
Thanks again
Jim
>
> >
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >I am trying to finish up my airplane and ran into a couple of questions.
> >
> >1. I am using the 2 batteries 2 alternator configuation on my
> >Glasair. My question is: Does it matter if the starter solenoid is
> >mounted on the same plate that the x-feed , and battery contactors are
> >mounted on? And this needs to be grounded to energize the starter
> >contactor. I guess my question better stated is: Does it matter if the
> >x-feed/battery solenoids are case grounded? Is there a failure mode that
> >this could be a problem?
>
> No.
>
>
> >2.We are having problems with the Sky-Tek starter turring over. It was a
> >good starter when I bought it. I doesn't turn over at all and we have
> >verified 12 vlts at the starter. It has a second spade connector next to
> >the main pwr lug that we don't know what it is for. Any thoughts?
>
> I'd have to see how the lug is attached? Does it look like it
> goes inside the solenoid for an independent connection or
> is it obvious that it makes electrical connection with the adjacent
> main power lug? Have you talked with Sky-Tek?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Wilson <pwilson(at)climber.org> |
| Subject: | LED position lights |
I just noted that the position light draw 3.5 amps each. Can anyone
help me figure out how to convert out how to convert to LED lights
that will give similar lumens?
Thanks, Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John & Amy Eckel <eckel1(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED position lights |
As a start do a search on position/clearance lights for trucks.
There are many in different shapes and colors. I too am
interested is using LEDs, but it will be awhile before I am ready.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Wilson" <pwilson(at)climber.org>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED position lights
>
> I just noted that the position light draw 3.5 amps each. Can anyone
> help me figure out how to convert out how to convert to LED lights
> that will give similar lumens?
>
> Thanks, Paul
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim V. Wickert" <JimW_btg(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | LED position lights |
Paul,
In order to do this you will have select the led's you are going to use to
equal the current and voltage draw you expect to use this then can be
balanced with the type of LED's that are available and then you can
calculate the Lumens. It is not a straight conversion.
Jim W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim V. Wickert" <JimW_btg(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED position lights |
A good place to look for Led info is the Digi-key catolouge. They have a
number of led arrays square, round 12 volt 24 volt etc.
Jim W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Electrical system drawings posted |
>
>Yeah, I could save as pdfs, using OS X's built in pdf generator.
>They'll be one page per file though, as each one is a separate
>document, and I don't want to mess around figuring out how to
>concatenate them.
>
>I'll start converting them later on tonight. I'll load them onto my
>server, and post a message back here with the URL once they're up.
Kevin, I have Acrobat 5.0 and can put the collection
together into a single document if you wish. If you'd
put them together into a single .zip file so I can
download them, I'll be glad to assemble them and
put the new file up where you can snatch it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)starband.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED position lights |
Compared to the bulbs in common usage, how would a half dozen or so 5,000 MCD LEDs
look. I have no idea what a MCD is, or how it equates to lumens or how many lumens
are
in the bulbs we are currently using.
Anyone know about this stuff? .... Jim S.
"Jim V. Wickert" wrote:
>
> A good place to look for Led info is the Digi-key catolouge. They have a
> number of led arrays square, round 12 volt 24 volt etc.
>
> Jim W
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED position lights |
Paul,
Take a look at http://www.lumileds.com/ These seem to be high output LED's,
although they run pretty hot and will need heat sinking. I intend to
experiment with these for my Europa. I estimate I can reduce my night time
in-flight load to 12 ~ 14 amps (total) if I use a single strobe and LED
position lights.
Paul McAllister.
http://europa363.versadev.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)starband.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator, ammeter questions .... |
Bob,
I am a newbie here and will be ordering your book and CD
directly (like first payday w/leftovers).
1) I have a Velocity with charging system problems. I
installed an alternator (ND or similar) that came off of my
Long-EZ. I bought a new regulator (dirt simple - two contacts:
Batt and Field). The damned thing regulates at >16 volts. Now
I owned an auto repair business for a number of years, and I
don't know if I EVER ran into a regulator that wouldn't regulate
right out the box, and very damned few that failed closed. The
field wire (from the split master alternator switch, through a 3
or 5 amp CB comes aft the length of the fuselage to the
regulator. The wire is a pair of 22 or 24 ga wires twisted
together. Don't know why the builder did it this way unless he
had a lot of that and no 18 ga. In any event, I seem to have
battery/charging voltage (or very nearly that) at the batt
terminal of the regulator, engine running or not. Could there
be something having to do with voltage drop in the line?
Doesn't make sense to me in light of how close to Bat/Chg the
reading is at the terminal, but it doesn't cost much to ask. I
suspect I'll be swapping out that regulator for another.
How superior are solid state regulators to relay type
regulators?
2. I moved the battery aft from the nose to just forward of
the firewall (because I'm so big and fat) which eliminated
several pounds of #2 cable. However, the 10 ga alternator
output cable still goes from the engine, all the way to the
instrument panel, through the ammeter and back to the battery.
I figure that if I could come up with an inductive current
measuring transducer, I could save all this cable and run the
alternator output straight to the battery. That would help
suppress the "ripple" in the output voltage and eliminate some
static/noise and besides, I don't like shunt/galvinometer
ammeters. I used inductive transducers on my test equipment in
the car business over 20 years ago, and they worked great.
Where do I start looking for an inductive current transducer or
complete inductive ammeter?
Thanks .... Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator, ammeter questions .... |
> don't know if I EVER ran into a regulator that wouldn't regulate
> right out the box, and very damned few that failed closed.
I had two Chrysler regulators do this. One was new from the parts store.
Charged wide open the first time I started the engine.
R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator, ammeter questions .... |
>
>Bob,
>I am a newbie here and will be ordering your book and CD
>directly (like first payday w/leftovers).
Welcome aboard. In the mean time, please take
advantage of all the downloadable stuff on
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html
>1) I have a Velocity with charging system problems. I
>installed an alternator (ND or similar) that came off of my
>Long-EZ. I bought a new regulator (dirt simple - two contacts:
>Batt and Field). The damned thing regulates at >16 volts. Now
>I owned an auto repair business for a number of years, and I
>don't know if I EVER ran into a regulator that wouldn't regulate
>right out the box, and very damned few that failed closed. The
>field wire (from the split master alternator switch, through a 3
>or 5 amp CB comes aft the length of the fuselage to the
>regulator. The wire is a pair of 22 or 24 ga wires twisted
>together. Don't know why the builder did it this way unless he
>had a lot of that and no 18 ga. In any event, I seem to have
>battery/charging voltage (or very nearly that) at the batt
>terminal of the regulator, engine running or not.
this should FUNCTION but the choice of wires and method
of application gives one pause to wonder how bad other
parts of the system may be. . .
> Could there
>be something having to do with voltage drop in the line?
>Doesn't make sense to me in light of how close to Bat/Chg the
>reading is at the terminal, but it doesn't cost much to ask. I
>suspect I'll be swapping out that regulator for another.
Did the system EVER work? At least when you could
see it work? Make sure the base of the regulator is
grounded. Many regulators will "run away" if
they lose the ground connection. Given that your
airplane is composite, I suspect there's a good
chance that the mounting doesn't supply the proper
electrical ground too.
>How superior are solid state regulators to relay type
>regulators?
ohhh . . . probably not more than 2000% better . . .
>2. I moved the battery aft from the nose to just forward of
>the firewall (because I'm so big and fat) which eliminated
>several pounds of #2 cable. However, the 10 ga alternator
>output cable still goes from the engine, all the way to the
>instrument panel, through the ammeter and back to the battery.
>I figure that if I could come up with an inductive current
>measuring transducer, I could save all this cable and run the
>alternator output straight to the battery. That would help
>suppress the "ripple" in the output voltage and eliminate some
>static/noise and besides, I don't like shunt/galvinometer
>ammeters.
Why?
> I used inductive transducers on my test equipment in
>the car business over 20 years ago, and they worked great.
>Where do I start looking for an inductive current transducer or
>complete inductive ammeter?
What's wrong with a simple shunt? Our wiring diagrams
have recommended tying the alternator's b-lead right
onto the hot side of the starter contactor via a fuse
right on the firewall. A shunt in this lead can be extended
via fuse protected lines to a loadmeter on the panel.
There are lots of folks using various hall-effect devices
to drive their electronic loadmeter/ammeter displays.
BUT . . . they have higher parts count, they need to
be individually calibrated, they need to be periodically
re-calibrated, and the systems they drive need to be
powered up to work. The shunt driven ammeter has been
around in airplanes for a very long time and has the
advantage of being stone simple, drift free and self-powered.
If I were wiring my own airplane today, I'd probably
use shunted loadmeters.
If you really gotta have hall-effect driven instruments,
you'll either have to buy ready to install products
the consist of matched sensor-indicator pairs (not
cheap) or build your own. Microswitch CSLA series
transducers are described on the Honeywell website
at http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/current/
If your battery and engine are both on opposite ends
of the airplane from the panel, I think I'd try to
work out a way to mount the regulator back there too,
wire it with more appropriate wire and add OV protection.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)starband.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator, ammeter questions .... |
This is an old Chrysler unit. I'll take it back first thing Monday morning.
Wish I could find a simple 2-terminal transistorized unit. Looked through ALL
the guy's illustrated catalogs and didn't see a damn thing I could really use.
Bummer. Guess I'll go to wreck yard and get a jap alternator with internal
regulator. Trouble is, anything under 10-12 years old has serpentine belts so
I'll have to make a pulley.
Thanks .... Jim S.
RSwanson wrote:
>
> > don't know if I EVER ran into a regulator that wouldn't regulate
> > right out the box, and very damned few that failed closed.
>
> I had two Chrysler regulators do this. One was new from the parts store.
> Charged wide open the first time I started the engine.
> R
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)starband.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator, ammeter questions .... |
Bob,
<... take advantage of all the downloadable stuff ...>
I will. Thanks.
<... choice of wires ... application gives one pause ... other parts of the system
may be. .
.>
Yup. Hate to rewire the whole airplane. Eating that elephant one bite at a time
... :o)
<... Did the system EVER work? At least when you could see it work? ...>
Plane came at me with an prestolite(?) internally regulated unit that went south.
Mount
setup was grotesque (3 layers of brackets to adapt to a single (very large) mounting
ear ala
GM 70s), so I opted to switch to unit with smaller ears on both ends of the case
that mount
easier and simpler. Unit came off my Long-EZ and was working when I broke the
airframe.
<... Make sure the base of the regulator is grounded ...> it is well grounded
<... I don't like shunt/galvinometer ammeters.
Why?
What's wrong with a simple shunt? ...>
Intuition? Fascination with trick shit? Didn't know they were so delicate. Guess
I'll have
to revisit my position on this.
<... recommended tying the alternator's B-lead ... starter contactor via a fuse
right on the
firewall ...>
Exactly what I aim to do. current B-lead stretches from alternator to ammeter
and main buss
at the instrument panel and back to the battery (high side of the starter relay).
<... A shunt in this lead can be extended via fuse protected lines to a loadmeter
on the
panel ...>
What might that look like? Do you"remote" the Ammeter shunt aft and put it in
series with
the B-lead at the starter lug and run 22 or 24 ga wires from shunt to the now-unshunted
meter?
How tough is it to do this?...
Guess I'll have to read the book :-(
<... If your battery and engine are both on opposite ends of the airplane from
the panel, I
think I'd try to
work out a way to mount the regulator back there too ...>
The regulator and what appears to be an overvoltage protector (2" x 1" x .25" tin
box with 2
#10 lugs) in series with the B-lead are co-mounted on opposite sides of the baffling
about 4"
from the alternator (with ground lead to engine ground lug).
<... If you really gotta have hall-effect driven instruments ...> I don't REALLY
<... you'll either have to buy ready to install ... matched sensor-indicator pairs
(not
cheap) ...>
I can't rationally support my distaste for shunted meters, so I'll have to rethink
the issue.
Thanks .... Jim S.
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >I am a newbie here and will be ordering your book and CD
> >directly (like first payday w/leftovers).
>
> Welcome aboard. In the mean time, please take
> advantage of all the downloadable stuff on
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html
>
> >1) I have a Velocity with charging system problems. I
> >installed an alternator (ND or similar) that came off of my
> >Long-EZ. I bought a new regulator (dirt simple - two contacts:
> >Batt and Field). The damned thing regulates at >16 volts. Now
> >I owned an auto repair business for a number of years, and I
> >don't know if I EVER ran into a regulator that wouldn't regulate
> >right out the box, and very damned few that failed closed. The
> >field wire (from the split master alternator switch, through a 3
> >or 5 amp CB comes aft the length of the fuselage to the
> >regulator. The wire is a pair of 22 or 24 ga wires twisted
> >together. Don't know why the builder did it this way unless he
> >had a lot of that and no 18 ga. In any event, I seem to have
> >battery/charging voltage (or very nearly that) at the batt
> >terminal of the regulator, engine running or not.
>
> this should FUNCTION but the choice of wires and method
> of application gives one pause to wonder how bad other
> parts of the system may be. . .
>
> > Could there
> >be something having to do with voltage drop in the line?
> >Doesn't make sense to me in light of how close to Bat/Chg the
> >reading is at the terminal, but it doesn't cost much to ask. I
> >suspect I'll be swapping out that regulator for another.
>
> Did the system EVER work? At least when you could
> see it work? Make sure the base of the regulator is
> grounded. Many regulators will "run away" if
> they lose the ground connection. Given that your
> airplane is composite, I suspect there's a good
> chance that the mounting doesn't supply the proper
> electrical ground too.
>
> >How superior are solid state regulators to relay type
> >regulators?
>
> ohhh . . . probably not more than 2000% better . . .
>
> >2. I moved the battery aft from the nose to just forward of
> >the firewall (because I'm so big and fat) which eliminated
> >several pounds of #2 cable. However, the 10 ga alternator
> >output cable still goes from the engine, all the way to the
> >instrument panel, through the ammeter and back to the battery.
> >I figure that if I could come up with an inductive current
> >measuring transducer, I could save all this cable and run the
> >alternator output straight to the battery. That would help
> >suppress the "ripple" in the output voltage and eliminate some
> >static/noise and besides, I don't like shunt/galvinometer
> >ammeters.
>
> Why?
>
> > I used inductive transducers on my test equipment in
> >the car business over 20 years ago, and they worked great.
> >Where do I start looking for an inductive current transducer or
> >complete inductive ammeter?
>
> What's wrong with a simple shunt? Our wiring diagrams
> have recommended tying the alternator's b-lead right
> onto the hot side of the starter contactor via a fuse
> right on the firewall. A shunt in this lead can be extended
> via fuse protected lines to a loadmeter on the panel.
>
> There are lots of folks using various hall-effect devices
> to drive their electronic loadmeter/ammeter displays.
> BUT . . . they have higher parts count, they need to
> be individually calibrated, they need to be periodically
> re-calibrated, and the systems they drive need to be
> powered up to work. The shunt driven ammeter has been
> around in airplanes for a very long time and has the
> advantage of being stone simple, drift free and self-powered.
>
> If I were wiring my own airplane today, I'd probably
> use shunted loadmeters.
>
> If you really gotta have hall-effect driven instruments,
> you'll either have to buy ready to install products
> the consist of matched sensor-indicator pairs (not
> cheap) or build your own. Microswitch CSLA series
> transducers are described on the Honeywell website
> at http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/current/
>
> If your battery and engine are both on opposite ends
> of the airplane from the panel, I think I'd try to
November 05, 2002 - November 17, 2002
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bj