AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-cr

November 25, 2003 - December 05, 2003



      large production runs to amortize the cost.  Jabiru doesn't have that.
      
      I'm not a big fan of the Bing carbs on aircraft.  While they are altitude
      compensated, they are not temperature compensated.  Out here in the desert,
      that can make a real difference.  I'll probably put an Ellison throttle body
      or an AeroCarb on the engine.  I like the control they would afford me.
      
      Taking the fuel consumption figures that Tony Spicer supplied on his 3300
      powered Sonex with an Ellison throttle body, his figures on the cross
      country to and from Oshkosh were close to the ones that the Bing carburated
      2200's give.
      
      There is one Jabiru powered Pulsar owner locally who likes to fly high.  He
      is planning on replacing one of the ignitions with one of Klaus' Lightspeed
      ignitions.  I'll let him do it first, and it will be interesting to see what
      his results are.
      
      I'll also use a wood-core fixed pitch prop, which, with the self-damping
      qualities and the light weight fit my needs.  True, it is not as efficient
      as an adjustable pitch, but the cost is right, and it is KISS.
      
      Dan Branstrom
      ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott, Ian" <ian_scott(at)rslcom.com.au>
Subject: Magneto Replacements
> > > for a modern engine have a look at www.jabiru.net.au > > Ian > > ---------------------------------------------------- > RSL COM has an extensive and competitive range of > local and long distance call packages. We also > offer converged multimedia and data services through > our own state-of-the-art integrated voice & data network. > Visit http://www.rslcom.com.au to find out more. > > This message is for the named person's use only. > > Privileged/confidential information may be contained in > this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in > this message (or responsible for delivery of the message > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this > message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy > this message, and notify us immediately. > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the > individual sender, except where the message states > otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them to > be the views of any such entity. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Magneto Relpacements
Date: Nov 25, 2003
>(snip) for a modern engine have a look at www.jabiru.net.au > > Ian I'm going to install a Jabiru 3300 in my Sonex. It is a modern engine, but as with all of them, there are some compromises. The engine has had some teething problems, which seem to be solved. The fixed ignition keeps the parts count down and reliability up, but at altitude, there is power lost because of it. The engine has bearings between each piston, which reduces stresses on the crank. It also is made without a PSRU, which simplifies everything. The nicest thing about it is that the power to weight ratio is much better than LyConsouruses. The disadvantage is that while Jabiru is cranking out engines right and left, (that is in comparison to aircraft engines produced in recent times), there is not a lot of history on them. That is changing, of course. Because it is not a certified engine (except as a part of a certified aircraft), and it uses off the shelf items like pistons that are remanufacured to Jabiru standards, the cost of overhaul is low. Also, the engine uses CNC technology in manufacture, and this has reduced the need for developing castings. (The only part cast is the oil pan.) Castings require large production runs to amortize the cost. Jabiru doesn't have that. I'm not a big fan of the Bing carbs on aircraft. While they are altitude compensated, they are not temperature compensated. Out here in the desert, that can make a real difference. I'll probably put an Ellison throttle body or an AeroCarb on the engine. I like the control they would afford me. Taking the fuel consumption figures that Tony Spicer supplied on his 3300 powered Sonex with an Ellison throttle body, his figures on the cross country to and from Oshkosh were close to the ones that the Bing carburated 2200's give. There is one Jabiru powered Pulsar owner locally who likes to fly high. He is planning on replacing one of the ignitions with one of Klaus' Lightspeed ignitions. I'll let him do it first, and it will be interesting to see what his results are. I'll also use a wood-core fixed pitch prop, which, with the self-damping qualities and the light weight fit my needs. True, it is not as efficient as an adjustable pitch, but the cost is right, and it is KISS. Dan Branstrom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott, Ian" <ian_scott(at)rslcom.com.au> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Magneto Replacements > > > for a modern engine have a look at www.jabiru.net.au > > Ian > > ---------------------------------------------------- > RSL COM has an extensive and competitive range of > local and long distance call packages. We also > offer converged multimedia and data services through > our own state-of-the-art integrated voice & data network. > Visit http://www.rslcom.com.au to find out more. > > This message is for the named person's use only. > > Privileged/confidential information may be contained in > this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in > this message (or responsible for delivery of the message > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this > message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy > this message, and notify us immediately. > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the > individual sender, except where the message states > otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them to > be the views of any such entity. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: DIY sexy flap switch . . .
Or put your flap switch on the joystick (http://www.infinityaerospace.com/infgrip.htm) so you can operate the flaps with the same hand that is flying the plane, and you can keep your other hand on the throttle. Dave Morris > >What family of Microswitch toggles would you recommend for this? NT? TS? > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> >To: "Walt Klees" ; >Subject: AeroElectric-List: DIY sexy flap switch . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > >Comments/Questions: Bob, > > >This is an oddball request, but maybe you can help. I'm building an > RV-6A > > >with electric flaps, and I'd like to put on my panel a flap switch that > > >uses a bat handle shaped like a flap. I can't find any info about this > > >from Matronics or Google searches. I have also e-mailed RAC via the > > >website but have not yet received an answer. > > > > > >Do you know who makes either the whole switch or just the bat handle > > >adapter for this? > > > > > >Thanks for your time and help. > > > > You don't even WANT to know what this switch costs for a Bonanza. > > > > How about building one? > > > > You start with a toggle switch that operates on a pinned shaft > > as opposed to ball-n-socket pivot. Microswitch products are one > > example of this kind of switch. Next, carve a flap shape out of > > a piece of aluminum. If I were going to make a lot, I'd have the > > things NC machined. If I needed one, less than 30 minutes or > > so with a band-saw, belt sander and little chunk of 5/8" alum > > sheet would get the job done too. See: > > > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/FlapSwitch/FlapSw1.jpg > > > > Sand a flat on the last 1/2" or so of the bat-handle on a > > toggle. Drill handle for snug fit on toggle of switch. .240" > > is typical. See: > > > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/FlapSwitch/FlapSw2.jpg > > > > Drill and tap handle for 6-32 set screws, one each side > > and attach to switch after it's mounted in panel. See: > > > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/FlapSwitch/FlapSw3.jpg > > > > From the time I read your note to the time I began to take > > these pictures was about 20 minutes. Yeah, I cheated and > > used Delrin . . . didn't have a suitable piece of aluminum > > stock. So it might take 30 minutes with aluminum. Keep bowl > > of water and ice cubes handy to dip workpiece for cooling > > during sculpting phase on the belt sander. > > > > Bob . . . > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) > > ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) > > ( and still understand nothing. ) > > ( C.F. Kettering ) > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Magneto Relpacements
Date: Nov 25, 2003
Sorry about all the posts. Don't know what's happened. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2003
From: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: Magneto Replacements
George Braly wrote: > > >Rotary engine ... the BSFC's are worse than the worst that Japan >incorporated can now builds - - and even their best is worse than we >already have in 40 year old aircraft engines. > Chapter & verse, please? That was barely true in the early '70's, when my father's RX-4 got around 12 mpg, or about the same as a Chevy 283 or Ford 289 of that era. My mid-80's RX-7 (in very poor tune) got around 22 mpg, respectable for a sports car & about the same as my wife's '92 5L Mustang. Experience of those flying the rotary is that it's not quite as good as a Lyc that's leaned properly, but it's close. Now, given that most pilots have never leaned a Lyc properly due to fear of burning exhaust valves, & the stage is set for the rotary to achieve better BSFC numbers than a Lyc in actual flight operation. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: re: "lots work still to be done"
> >It would seem to me that "not worrying about the paperwork" during the >design phase means they never intend to certify and possible never >manufacture either. Why? To prove/perfect new technologies in order to >patent and shelve them. Why? This could be a cheaper less risky method of >protecting ones market share, although temporarily. Then again sometimes >engineers just want to have fun like the rest of us. > >my rambling thoughts on sale. $.01 That's certainly possible but I cut my first pieces of aluminum in an experimental flight test hangar attached right to the back of Cessna engineering building. We built, tested and proved the service life of many new ideas with no concerns what-so-ever about certification. AFTER we were sure the product did what we wanted it to do, we'd tackle the certification issues. This allowed a lot of not-so-good ideas to go into the scrap barrel with a minimum of development time lost. I've seen a lot of faith placed on Catia, computerized finite element analysis, etc., etc. which has lulled many folks into believing we can craft the elegant design without getting our hands dirty or dumping ANY aluminum into the scrap barrel. I think Honda is very interested in the certified aircraft market. I'm betting that they'll have all their bugs out by the time their finished with #2 prototype. If they choose to put more than a toe into the water, I'll bet their first offering will be the most trouble free airplane since the C-140/C-170 series machines. I think the Eclipse experiment has attracted a lot of interest. If Honda gets into that mode of thinking, they'll be set up to produce 10x to 100x the volume we're used to seeing on "modern" production lines. The miseries we've experienced on Premier are mitigated by the fact that there were only 60 airplanes to fix . . . if that had been 600 airplanes, RAC would be toast. Honda has enough experience with high-volume markets to understand this as well as anybody could. This is going to be interesting to watch. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2003
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: Magneto Replacements
> > Clearly anyone not running a Lyc-Con is an idiot. > Whew.. Now since that issue is all cleared up, where did those little > electro-thingamajigis go that we are supposed to be discussing on this > forum?? Must be lying around somewhere..... > Jon Hidden inside those electronic ignitions that started this whole thread. Sorry, all, it really was an innocent question when I asked about the prop vibration issues of EI... :-) From what I can tell so far, if you want to use an EI, the safest thing is to use a wooden prop, which does not appear to be as badly affected by the vibration issues. Since that is what I have on my O320, I'll replace my mag with an EI when the time comes since the price is similar. I appreciate all the feedback - this has certainly been an interested thread to read! -Dj -- Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755 "On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section, it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com>
Subject: RE: Speaking of "lots work still to be done"
Date: Nov 25, 2003
Bevan, see comments below ... James > > It would seem to me that "not worrying about the paperwork" during the > design phase means they never intend to certify and possible never I would not go so far as to think that. They are making NO CLAIMS at this point that they WILL even offer it to market, cerified or NOT. They are doing a bit of engineering work and getting market feedback through their testing. They **COULD** decide this is not worth the resources required and simply write off the engineering. We kinda know about this one as they (and Continental) gave a bit of a "sneak peek" at OSH (along with press releases about them working together)and thus some writeups.There are **MANY** projects of that nature in a large development organizations. I have started and shut down several that the marketplace never even knew about. *IF* the projects would have proved reasonably feasible then they may have made it to the next step. This approach is FAR better (in my mind)than making some brash claim that the xyz widget is going to be greatest thing since sliced bread and be available next month for 1/2 the price, blah, blah, when in fact you have no clue if you can make the thing. > manufacture either. Why? To prove/perfect new technologies in order to > patent and shelve them. Why? This could be a cheaper less risky > method of > protecting ones market share, although temporarily. Then again sometimes Protecting what market share?? They have ZERO in this are at present. They are experimenting and GOOD FOR THEM (and us). They have yet to make a decision on marketing the thing as I understand. I applaud their approach. > engineers just want to have fun like the rest of us. Yes. And some companies are willing to let some of their best engineers simply run with an idea, "go play", and if they sort it all out, take a decision to spend the really big bucks to roll out a product to the marketplace. Keep in mind, the big money (and thus the BIG decision) does not become a BIG deal until after you decide to make a product of this nature. In my opinion, it will take a few years just to know if this is a *feasible* venture (technology and business) and then another bit of time to build plants/factories and ramp up for production. And oh, there is some amount of testing of the "real" thing that gets figured in. Finally, to connect this to "Aeroelectric-List" stuff .... Did you know they plan to use FADEC and built in permanent magnet alternator (that is built in, so to speak)?? They want to make sure there is a reasonable chance of juice being available for the FADEC. James ... probably up to a nickel's worth of comments (verbal inflation :-) ) > > my rambling thoughts on sale. $.01 > Bevan > RV7A fuse > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Magneto Relpacements
> > >Sorry about all the posts. Don't know what's happened. Lots of ideas got tossed onto the table . . . some simple, some complex, some questionable. It's a good place to put the for sorting. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2003
From: Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Magneto Replacements
electroair(at)juno.com is a couple of years old. Dj Merrill wrote: > Anyone have a web site address for Electroair? > > Thanks, > > -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Smaller ELT antenna question
> > >All, >The antenna that came with my AmeriKing ELT is 18" long. ON a store >bought airplane, I had a "Rubber Ducky" antenna approx 10" high on the >tail. Does anyone know of a source to get one of those? See http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/antenna_loading.gif The typical monopole antenna is 1/4 electrical wavelength long at frequency of interest. For comm frequencies, this is about 75/125=0.6 meters or 23.6 inches long. You can physically shorten an antenna of this type by building some "loading" inductance into the design. I had an antenna on my '41 Pontiac that was physically 11' long but electrically 33' long by virtue of the coil in the middle. >I spoke to a technical person at ACS, who said to use an XPNDR spike >antenna. But Transponders are a totally different freq, so I'm thinking >that will not work. You are correct. >Why the gyrations? I want to hide the antenna under the empennage >fiberglass fairing in my RV-8 in a horizontal position. The long straight >antenna provided will not fit. Some RV guys have placed theirs in a bow >around the aft cockpit bulkhead. This is not an option for me, as I've >constructed a fastback turtledeck, and my metal canopy skirts will shield >the antenna in that position, besides, I'm not fond of that look on the >interior. I built an ELT antenna to fit totally inside the window envelope on the back seat of a Cubby . . . the window opening was only 9" high. Copper tape on the window was cut about 2/3 down from the top and a coil inserted. The coil size was adjusted with an antenna analyzer so that the 9" antenna "looked like" it was really 23" long. Rubber duck antennas are often "all coil" such that they are quite a bit shorter than the full sized 23" antenna. >No comm antennae will be on the topside of the tailcone, so using a std >comm thru a splitter is no go as well. Perhaps I should 'roll my own' >into the fiberglass empennage fairing? Any ideas from the crowd would be >greatly appreciated. Thanx. You could purchase a rubber duck for a hand-held aircraft transceiver and mount a bulkhead BNC fitting to a bracket under the fairing. See http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?23X358218#s605bf about half way down the page for a typical connector. I could probably get you a replacement antenna for a Japan Radio transceiver or if you can borrow an antenna analyzer good for the 121 Mhz range, it's pretty easy to trim a home built antenna to proper dimensions. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: RemovingDsubPins
> >Having inserted one of the machined Dsub pins into it's female connector, >having never removed one of these pins, having searched the list, I'm >wondering how to do it. Does the pin just push out without ruining the >grip of the connector for a reinserted pin? The seat & release tool is >mysterious to me as neither the red nor the white end fits into the >connection side of the female connector to push with. > >Secondarily, I got in this position crimping onto 24 gauge wires with the >eclipse 300-015 crimp tool, but one of the wires pulled loose. that tool is marginal on 24AWG wire. you need to double back the strands before crimping. The dies on that tool are optimized for 20/22 AWG wire in the 20AWG pin. > The garmin transponder installation kit contained the pin & the garmin > installation manual says don't use smaller than 24 awg wire. So, I > thought I'd be OK. It seems unlikely I could have just not crimped the > pin so is there a problem to look out for here? This was pin 15 of my > vast crimping experience of 16. The white end of the extraction tool is pushed down past the crimp barrel on the pin. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/dse-1.jpg and http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/dse-1a.jpg There is a "tire treaded" groove in the tool's handle. When the tool is seated, put the wire into the groove and press with your finger so that you put tension on tool and wire together. It's almost always helpful to put a 90 degree twist on the tool with light tension . . . and it should come right out. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 25, 2003
From: kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Magneto Relpacements
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com> > >I will throw in a few cents here. My opinion on the perfect aircraft >engine.............snip Oh, no! Now 1500 other "engine designers" will have to give their opinion. (Make note to self to add 'Relpacements' to the into the trash can filter.) K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now. PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: Removing Molex KK Pins
Date: Nov 26, 2003
Does anyone have a good (read: cheap) source for the extractor tool used to remove Molex KK series pins? These are the pins used in King/Narco radio connectors. Mouser wants $50+ for a little sliver of metal with a handle on it - that's nuts! I found one company that had them for $1.50 but they were out of stock for months...wonder why?!? Thanks, James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX www.berkut13.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: Re: Magneto Replacements
> > electroair(at)juno.com is a couple of years old. I was hoping they might have a web site with details about their EI product. I've found all sorts of information about the Lightspeed product from their web site (http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/), and was hoping to do the same with Electroair. Is there a huge difference in the two? -Dj -- Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755 "On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section, it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com>
Subject: Magneto Replacements
Date: Nov 26, 2003
Dj, There are technical differences between the two but both seem to do a fine job. Once installed, I doubt if you could tell which one is "under the hood". You *will* be able to tell that EI is under the hood though. My partner's and mine RV6 has Jeff Rose's unit. My RV6 buddy next hangar over has Klaus' unit. The RV I am building has Klaus' unit. I won't attempt to try to sort out the two but if you give Jeff a call he will gladly go over the +'s and -'s (I assume there are some :-) ) of his unit. I say this because when I **THOUGHT** I had a problem with Jeff's unit, he bent over backwards to help me with the "problem", even though it turned out not to be his product as culprit. And we knew that it was a long shot in the beginning. Haven't had the "opportunity" for such with Klaus as the plane is not flying yet. From "RV Yeller Pages": ELECTROAIR (JEFF ROSE) 423-622-8825 electroair(at)juno.com ELECTRONIC IGNITION James > > > > > electroair(at)juno.com is a couple of years old. > > I was hoping they might have a web site with details > about their EI product. I've found all sorts of information about > the Lightspeed product from their web site > (http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/), and was hoping to do the > same with Electroair. Is there a huge difference in the two? > > -Dj > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Removing Molex KK Pins
> > Does anyone have a good (read: cheap) source for the extractor tool used to > remove Molex KK series pins? These are the pins used in King/Narco radio > connectors. James, I made one from a feeler gauge. I chose a size that was a compromise between being thin enough to be readily inserted and being thick enough to be strong so I could push on it without too much bending. Then I ground its width down so it would fit inside the connector. Can't remember for sure but it may have been .013". I suppose you could do the same with a scrap of spring steel or other suitable metal. -- Joe Long-EZ 821RP Clarkston, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Magneto Replacements
<... Is there a huge difference in the two ...> I seriously doubt it. Dj Merrill wrote: > > > > > electroair(at)juno.com is a couple of years old. > > I was hoping they might have a web site with details > about their EI product. I've found all sorts of information about > the Lightspeed product from their web site > (http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/), and was hoping to do the > same with Electroair. Is there a huge difference in the two? > > -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net>
Subject: DsubSourceSought
Date: Nov 26, 2003
Having thoroughly fouled up my first wiring attempt, wires too short & too small to crimp properly, I'm looking for a source for a new female Dsub connector that goes on the back of my Garmin 320A transponder's installation tray. The existing connector is labeled ITT 0208 DBMA25S. It appears to have a white ceramic body specially designed to guide pins into the socket when sliding the transponder into it's mounting tray. In addition, the clearance between machined pin body and the wire side of the socket is so small that it's proving impossible to get the extraction tool to slide past the pin. The same tool worked fine on a plastic body connector from Radio Shack. Dave Reel - RV8A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Magneto Replacements
> > > > > > > electroair(at)juno.com is a couple of years old. > > I was hoping they might have a web site with details >about their EI product. I've found all sorts of information about >the Lightspeed product from their web site >(http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/), and was hoping to do the >same with Electroair. Is there a huge difference in the two? In terms of performance, you'll find no demonstrable differences in the two systems with respect to how the engine performs. Both products have a long and successful history. I've known both of these fellows for 10+ years. I've bugged Jeff numerous times about getting a stronger web-presence. I think he's byte-shy. Here are some webpages that speak to his product and gives you contact data. Give him a call. He's the consummate southern gentleman. http://exp-aircraft.com/vendors/electroa.html http://www.fly-gbi.com/EIS.htm Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( A beginning of the end is marked by ) ( replacement of experience and common ) ( sense with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Removing Molex KK Pins
> >Does anyone have a good (read: cheap) source for the extractor tool used to >remove Molex KK series pins? These are the pins used in King/Narco radio >connectors. > >Mouser wants $50+ for a little sliver of metal with a handle on it - that's >nuts! I found one company that had them for $1.50 but they were out of >stock for months...wonder why?!? I've made dozens of extraction tools for various tab-retained connector pins by cutting down a pocket screwdriver as shown here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/extraction_tool.jpg You need to grind gently so that the shank doesn't get so hot that it melts the plastic handle. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: Re: Magneto Replacements
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I've bugged Jeff numerous times about getting a stronger > web-presence. I think he's byte-shy. Here are some webpages > that speak to his product and gives you contact data. > Give him a call. He's the consummate southern gentleman. > > http://exp-aircraft.com/vendors/electroa.html > http://www.fly-gbi.com/EIS.htm > > Bob . . . Thanks! -Dj -- Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755 "On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section, it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: DsubSourceSought
> >Having thoroughly fouled up my first wiring attempt, wires too short & too >small to crimp properly, I'm looking for a source for a new female Dsub >connector that goes on the back of my Garmin 320A transponder's >installation tray. The existing connector is labeled ITT 0208 >DBMA25S. It appears to have a white ceramic body specially designed to >guide pins into the socket when sliding the transponder into it's mounting >tray. In addition, the clearance between machined pin body and the wire >side of the socket is so small that it's proving impossible to get the >extraction tool to slide past the pin. The same tool worked fine on a >plastic body connector from Radio Shack. I don't think that connector is anything special. The part shows up in the itt-cannon catalog which you can download at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/DSubCatalog98.pdf See page 183. These connectors tend to be pretty generic across manufacturers. Compare the connector you have with a 25S d-sub from Radio Shack. There are some series d-subs with short shells that take special pins. But for the most part, I've had good luck substituting connectors from other suppliers. See if the Radio Shack shell will fit your installation. If so, throw away the sheet metal pins that come with it and substitute the machined pins. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: RemovingDsubPins
Date: Nov 26, 2003
Bob, While we are on this discussion of pin removal tools wasn't there at one time on your site a tool for removing Molex Pin and Socket connector .062 I can't locate it in your tool section, need help thanks Roger J. Roy ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 12:01 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RemovingDsubPins > >Having inserted one of the machined Dsub pins into it's female connector, >having never removed one of these pins, having searched the list, I'm >wondering how to do it. Does the pin just push out without ruining the >grip of the connector for a reinserted pin? The seat & release tool is >mysterious to me as neither the red nor the white end fits into the >connection side of the female connector to push with. > >Secondarily, I got in this position crimping onto 24 gauge wires with the >eclipse 300-015 crimp tool, but one of the wires pulled loose. that tool is marginal on 24AWG wire. you need to double back the strands before crimping. The dies on that tool are optimized for 20/22 AWG wire in the 20AWG pin. > The garmin transponder installation kit contained the pin & the garmin > installation manual says don't use smaller than 24 awg wire. So, I > thought I'd be OK. It seems unlikely I could have just not crimped the > pin so is there a problem to look out for here? This was pin 15 of my > vast crimping experience of 16. The white end of the extraction tool is pushed down past the crimp barrel on the pin. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/dse-1.jpg and http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/dse-1a.jpg There is a "tire treaded" groove in the tool's handle. When the tool is seated, put the wire into the groove and press with your finger so that you put tension on tool and wire together. It's almost always helpful to put a 90 degree twist on the tool with light tension . . . and it should come right out. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Infernal congestion engines
Date: Nov 26, 2003
> >> and the power pulses are much less violent than those of a four stroke. Could you please enlighten me on exactly where the data to support >that claim comes from? > Typical diesel peak internal cylinder pressures are up around 1700 >PSI. Typical high power S.I. engines have peak internal cylinder pressures up around 900 PSI, 1050, max. > Very hard to get "less violent" out of 1700 verses 900 - - when both >events happen in the same time frame. Not at all. It depends on what you think "less violent" means. If you design a balanced twostroke diesel with three inline cylinders, the result is close to a turbine engine in vibration (count the pulses). The engine is violent, the cockpit/fuselage is serene. Strange that no one has heard of the Wilksch, flying since 1992. > I don't think this has anything to do with four stroke vs two >stroke. If it does, I would sure like an explanation of the physics of >that? Why would one want a theoretical discussion when the experience of it makes all that chat redundant? just go over the pond and try it out, then come back and spout the theory. > There is a monumental - - truly monumental - - amount of marketing >claims and B.S. information associated with internal combustion engines. >Regards, George I think we've just read some. Ferg Europa A064 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Lemen" <tedlem(at)ecentral.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 59 Msgs - 11/25/03
Date: Nov 26, 2003
> Radio shack had a tool for about $5.0. > > > ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ > > > From: "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Removing Molex KK Pins > > > Does anyone have a good (read: cheap) source for the extractor tool used to > remove Molex KK series pins? These are the pins used in King/Narco radio > connectors. > > Mouser wants $50+ for a little sliver of metal with a handle on it - that's > nuts! I found one company that had them for $1.50 but they were out of > stock for months...wonder why?!? > > Thanks, > > James Redmon > Berkut #013 N97TX > www.berkut13.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "'Scott Richardson'" <scott_m_richardson(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: LED questions
Date: Nov 26, 2003
Couple of questions on LED characteristics... I'm planning on using LED indicators for the annunciator lights on my panel and most that I see are rated at 12V or 24V. Am I going to do anything to their stability or life by running them at the 13.8V of an aircraft electrical system? or down at the 10.5V of a near-dead battery? I'm just not sure what the range of acceptable voltages is. Along these lines, I'd like to but in a bright-dim circuit for all my annunciators that might be running them at a voltage in the 5-8V range. Do LED's dim well or do they have a lower cutoff voltage where they simply stop producing light. Thanks for any advice... Scott ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: RemovingDsubPins
> >Bob, While we are on this discussion of pin removal tools wasn't there at >one time on your site a tool for removing Molex Pin and Socket connector >.062 I can't locate it in your tool section, need help thanks No, never did stock that tool. My suggestion is to check out this source: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T033/0102.pdf http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Molex/Web%20Data/extractor%20tooling%20specification.pdf http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Molex/Web%20Photos/11-03-0002.jpg Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Speaking of "lots work still to be done"
>*IF* the projects would have proved reasonably feasible then they may have >made it to the next step. This approach is FAR better (in my mind)than >making some brash claim that the xyz widget is going to be greatest thing >since sliced bread and be available next month for 1/2 the price, blah, >blah, when in fact you have no clue if you can make the thing. . . . exactly. Virtually every company I've worked for had their development work done, production problems worked out and had built and tested several pre-production articles to see if it was meeting our claim BEFORE we offered it for sale . . . . every company EXCEPT air-framers . . . >In my opinion, it will take a few years just to know if this is a *feasible* >venture (technology and business) and then another bit of time to build >plants/factories and ramp up for production. And oh, there is some amount of >testing of the "real" thing that gets figured in. > >Finally, to connect this to "Aeroelectric-List" stuff .... Did you know they >plan to use FADEC and built in permanent magnet alternator (that is built >in, so to speak)?? They want to make sure there is a reasonable chance of >juice being available for the FADEC. Jim, Is there a public source of information on their activities. All I've been able to learn is from a couple of suppliers who have been approached for products . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: Tom Caruthers <tomcaruthers(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pitot Heat Wiring
Hi All, I am installing a heated pitot tube that the manufacturer suggests using a 20A breaker or a slow-blow fuse. I plan on using fuses for the rest of my loads. How should the pitot heat be wired? I was thinking of using a 16ga fuselink from the main terminal of the fuseblock to a 20A breaker to a 1-3 switch. Another possibility would be to replace the breaker and switch with a combo breaker/switch. Any suggestions/comments? Thanks, Tom __________________________________ Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org>
Subject: Re: LED questions
Date: Nov 26, 2003
Can I second this enquiry please? Bob, can you point us at a back-to-basics article about LEDs and dimming them? It would be very useful to know, for example, how to calculate the resistor values for one / some LEDs in series / parallel, etc. Thanks in advance. Nev -- Jodel D-150 in progress UK ----- Original Message ----- From: "'Scott Richardson'" <scott_m_richardson(at)sbcglobal.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED questions > > Couple of questions on LED characteristics... > > I'm planning on using LED indicators for the annunciator lights on my > panel and most that > I see are rated at 12V or 24V. Am I going to do anything to their > stability or life by running > them at the 13.8V of an aircraft electrical system? or down at the > 10.5V of a near-dead > battery? I'm just not sure what the range of acceptable voltages is. > > Along these lines, I'd like to but in a bright-dim circuit for all my > annunciators that might be > running them at a voltage in the 5-8V range. Do LED's dim well or do > they have a lower > cutoff voltage where they simply stop producing light. > > Thanks for any advice... > > Scott > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: LED questions
Date: Nov 26, 2003
>From: 'Scott Richardson' (scott_m_richardson(at)sbcglobal.net) >Couple of questions on LED characteristics... >I see are rated at 12V or 24V. Am I going to do anything to their >stability or life by running them at the 13.8V of an aircraft electrical system? or down at the >10.5V of a near-dead battery? I'm just not sure what the range of acceptable voltages is. >Along these lines, I'd like to but in a bright-dim circuit for all my >annunciators that might be running them at a voltage in the 5-8V range. Do LED's dim well or do >they have a lower cutoff voltage where they simply stop producing light. Scott--Actually LEDs are rated at a couple of volts. They don't do anything at lower voltages. Above a couple of volts, the produce light depending on how much current flows through them. Ohm's Law E=IR is applicable here with just a little jiggering. Voltage across the device is equal to the Current (I)through it times the Resistance (R). Since the LED automatically drops couple volts all the time (let's call it Vf), the voltage we're looking at is really E minus Vf. Then the formula is: (E-Vf)=IR Everything else with a small amount of algebra follows from this. Remember a few small details--- 1) LEDs don't change color as voltage changes. Incandescents do! 2) LEDs are diodes and diodes don't like parallel hook-ups. If you want parallel LEDs you have to limit the current through each LED with a little resistor. 3) The series resistor wattage is I x I x R. Don't forget 25 milliamps is 0.025 Amps. 4) Buy LEDs from eBay if you can. 5) There is almost no upper voltage limit. LEDs work fine at voltages where the resistor becomes the problem. For a 20 milliamp LED operated at 10 kilovolts you just use a 500k ohm 200W resistor($75). If you plan to power an LED from 14.5V, it will work at 16V and still work at a few volts. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: RemovingDsubPins
Date: Nov 26, 2003
Thanks for the info Bob Roger J. Roy ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 3:35 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RemovingDsubPins > >Bob, While we are on this discussion of pin removal tools wasn't there at >one time on your site a tool for removing Molex Pin and Socket connector >.062 I can't locate it in your tool section, need help thanks No, never did stock that tool. My suggestion is to check out this source: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T033/0102.pdf http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Molex/Web%20Data/extractor%20tooling%20specification.pdf http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Molex/Web%20Photos/11-03-0002.jpg Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: LED questions
> > >Can I second this enquiry please? Bob, can you point us at a back-to-basics >article about LEDs and dimming them? It would be very useful to know, for >example, how to calculate the resistor values for one / some LEDs in series / >parallel, etc. > >Thanks in advance. Eric has done well in this regard already. There's an old article I did on the topic several years ago at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/leds3.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2003
Subject: Re: LED questions
From: John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Neville - Bob has already done what you requested. The archives should have a couple of long replies about LEDs that Bob authored. I keep a running log of a lot of his answers and can send you what I have. One is a file in MS Word and one or two in .pdf format. Let me know if you can take them as attachments to an email. Mark Phillips hangs out on this list and developed a very neat solution for an annunciator panel that uses a zener diode and a switch to dim the modules. Each module has 3 LED's in it. YOu can get these in red, gree, and yellow. Neat stuff. I have a copy of his AutoCAD file. Cheers, John O > Bob, can you point us at a back-to-basics article about LEDs and dimming > them? It would be very useful to know, >> >> I'm planning on using LED indicators for the annunciator lights on my >> panel and most that >> I see are rated at 12V or 24V. >> >> Scott ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Braly <gwbraly(at)gami.com>
Subject: Infernal congestion engines
Date: Nov 26, 2003
>> Not at all. It depends on what you think "less violent" means.<< Well... I do know what "less violent" means in the context of an engineering analysis of the engine. Any good textbook on the subject will describe (try Taylor, C.F., ) the issue. And it is not what the pilot thinks of the engine in the cockpit. When one begins to design the engine, the first thing one must define is the internal gas pressures above the piston. Diesel engines run about 2x higher on average at cruise. Your two stroke three cylinder inline engine may be subjectively wonderful - - in the cockpit - - but it may also play hell with propellers and accessories. Which is why I asked for data, rather than subjective impressions. I have a few gigabytes of crankshaft torsional data - - and it sure as the devil correlates very closely to peak internal cylinder pressures. Of course, if one runs it fast enough and then gears down for the prop, you can make a really ugly internal combustion engine (diesel or spark ignition) appear to be smooth to the folks in the cockpit. Regards, George --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Braly <gwbraly(at)gami.com>
Subject: quote ...
Date: Nov 26, 2003
-------------------------------------------- ( A beginning of the end is marked by ) ( replacement of experience and common ) ( sense with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) -------------------------------------------- Bob, can I use your quote? The T-34 wing spar issue is "heating up" in light of the recent crash near Houston. It is now starting to appear the wing failure was, among other issues, due to enormous overloading of the structure. There is a lot of concern that the FAA may decide to do the wrong thing with policy and procedures! Your quote might come in handy. George --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 26, 2003
Subject: Re: LED questions
Hi Scott- here are my recent "learnings" FWIW................long- delete if not interested!!! I built a ten-function LED annunciator panel utilizing LED modules from DigiKey part#404-1145-ND (red) and 404-1146-ND (yellow). These each have 3 LEDs, which I connected in series with the appropriate resistors of 240 ohms. Some are sinking (if I have my terms unmiscobobulated, these have bus voltage applied and utilize a switched ground, such as oil pressure, flaps retracted, canopy latched and EIS "big red light", etc. The others are "sourced", meaning they monitor a voltage applied, such as from the starter energized, fuel pump on, fuel low float switch timer output etc. I connected them using a DPDT miniature switch (Mouser #611-7201-021) with direct applied voltage and ground when in the "BRT" position, and zener diodes inserted into both sides when in the "DIM" position. If you can read AutoCad I can send a dwg and fotos of the completed board. I started out with 4.7 volt zeners with not enough dimming effect, tried 6.2 volt which while working well on the others, rendered the EIS inoperative when activated in the "dim" mode. I finally settled on 5.7 volt zeners. I also employed the same switch to handle the BRT/DIM function for my main function rocker switches (landing/taxi lights, strobes, fuel pump etc.) all of which have an LED on them indicating when the circuits are energized. With a possible maximum current from as many as 35 LEDs screaming through these two zeners, determing their lifespan will indeed be an experiment! I suggest you calculate wattage more fastidiously than I! 8-) Results are reasonable acceptable, but indicate that all LEDs are not created equal or operate the same. The annunciator board is reasonably consistent with the exception of the EIS LEDs (wired both of the two center red LED blocks to this fuction in parallel with their own resistors) which are dimmer in both brt and dim when activated by the EIS. My only conclusion is that instead of a direct ground path supplied by the EIS, there is an electronically switched path that still has "some" resistance, adding to the total circuit resistance. I have reduced the supply resistors to these two LED modules from 240 to 120 ohms with improved performance, but still not as bright as the other ones on the board, particularly in the dim position, but they are still bright enough to get your attention at night (they flash until acknowledged on the EIS) and basically equivalent to the others when in the bright position. The rocker switches universally are a little brighter than I'd prefer with the blue one on the "FLASH" (wig-wag) switch bright enough to bore a small hole through yer skull! Individual resistors can be added to the ground connections for these switches individually and their "volume" attenuated appropriately, however. Just gotta get around to it! I'd like to add here that with a "normal" lifespan of approximately 100,000 hours, overdriving these little dudes to even 40 mV for a more attention-getting appearance is no crime, as their normal duty cycles had better be measured in mere seconds or minutes considering their application! Just don't feed 'em 12 volts 'cause they will emulate Neil Young's words in that they will "burn out" rather rapidly instead of "fade away"!! (Ask Me How I Know This!) This has been a lot of fun playing with, sometimes frustrating, but indicates that when trying to "mix & match" these critters that if you like to experiment, you will have more fun than anyone deserves!! Understand the fundamentals then proceed with all abandon!!! Have fun From The PossumWorks in TN Mark - RV-6A N51PW ready to go to the airport- all electric, "mostly" LED "almost" flying machine with attitude!!!!! In a message dated 11/26/2003 6:32:18 PM Central Standard Time, scott_m_richardson(at)sbcglobal.net writes: Couple of questions on LED characteristics... I'm planning on using LED indicators for the annunciator lights on my panel and most that I see are rated at 12V or 24V. Am I going to do anything to their stability or life by running them at the 13.8V of an aircraft electrical system? or down at the 10.5V of a near-dead battery? I'm just not sure what the range of acceptable voltages is. Along these lines, I'd like to but in a bright-dim circuit for all my annunciators that might be running them at a voltage in the 5-8V range. Do LED's dim well or do they have a lower cutoff voltage where they simply stop producing light. Thanks for any advice... Scott ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: John R <jrourke@allied-computer.com>
Subject: Re: Infernal congestion engines
I'm sure you've heard of Doug Doers, and the 2-stroke diesel he has designed, built, and is now flying, initial production versions or on a Velocity and soon several more (beta customers, after 5+ generations of prototypes over 8+ years)... here's what he has to say about diesel, at least the 2-stroke variety, in response to a similar question: "Q: What are you planning to put on for a propeller? I know that horsepower is going to run around 200, but what about the torque from a diesel? It could rip the blades off the hub. A: The torque peaks from the diesel are only about 60% of the peaks the Lycoming puts out. We have four smaller power pulses per revolution versus two large peaks from the Lycoming. (They are 4-cycle -- two cylinders fire per revolution of the propeller. We are 2-cycle -- all four cylinders fire per revolution of the propeller.) Thus the torque "ripple" is much less. We never go negative on the torque delivered to the propeller because we have about 25 degrees of overlap on the power stroke between cylinders. The four cylinder 4-cycle engine has about 30 degrees of negative torque where the propeller drives the engine. So, while we haven't finalized the optimal propellers for the engine, it will not require any special strength considerations." You can read more at -John R. George Braly wrote: > > > > >>> Not at all. It depends on what you think "less violent" >>> >>> >means.<< > > Well... I do know what "less violent" means in the context of an >engineering analysis of the engine. > >Any good textbook on the subject will describe (try Taylor, C.F., ) the >issue. And it is not what the pilot thinks of the engine in the cockpit. > >When one begins to design the engine, the first thing one must define is the >internal gas pressures above the piston. Diesel engines run about 2x higher >on average at cruise. > >Your two stroke three cylinder inline engine may be subjectively wonderful - >- in the cockpit - - but it may also play hell with propellers and >accessories. > >Which is why I asked for data, rather than subjective impressions. I have >a few gigabytes of crankshaft torsional data - - and it sure as the devil >correlates very closely to peak internal cylinder pressures. > >Of course, if one runs it fast enough and then gears down for the prop, you >can make a really ugly internal combustion engine (diesel or spark ignition) >appear to be smooth to the folks in the cockpit. > >Regards, George > > >--- > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <scott_m_richardson(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: LED questions
Date: Nov 26, 2003
Thanks to all who replied to my questions on LED's - lots of useful info. Mark, Your circuit sounds very much like what I was thinking about except that I intend to use a DPDT on-off-(on) switch with the momentary contact used to give me a Dim-Bright-Test arrangement. (I found a smallish C&K toggle at Allied for this - Allied #676-3140). And yes, I would appreciate the Acad/photos of your setup. Thanks! Scott Lancair 235/290 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw(at)aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED questions Hi Scott- here are my recent "learnings" FWIW................long- delete if not interested!!! I built a ten-function LED annunciator panel utilizing LED modules from DigiKey part#404-1145-ND (red) and 404-1146-ND (yellow). These each have 3 LEDs, which I connected in series with the appropriate resistors of 240 ohms. Some are sinking (if I have my terms unmiscobobulated, these have bus voltage applied and utilize a switched ground, such as oil pressure, flaps retracted, canopy latched and EIS "big red light", etc. The others are "sourced", meaning they monitor a voltage applied, such as from the starter energized, fuel pump on, fuel low float switch timer output etc. I connected them using a DPDT miniature switch (Mouser #611-7201-021) with direct applied voltage and ground when in the "BRT" position, and zener diodes inserted into both sides when in the "DIM" position. If you can read AutoCad I can send a dwg and fotos of the completed board. I started out with 4.7 volt zeners with not enough dimming effect, tried 6.2 volt which while working well on the others, rendered the EIS inoperative when activated in the "dim" mode. I finally settled on 5.7 volt zeners. I also employed the same switch to handle the BRT/DIM function for my main function rocker switches (landing/taxi lights, strobes, fuel pump etc.) all of which have an LED on them indicating when the circuits are energized. With a possible maximum current from as many as 35 LEDs screaming through these two zeners, determing their lifespan will indeed be an experiment! I suggest you calculate wattage more fastidiously than I! 8-) Results are reasonable acceptable, but indicate that all LEDs are not created equal or operate the same. The annunciator board is reasonably consistent with the exception of the EIS LEDs (wired both of the two center red LED blocks to this fuction in parallel with their own resistors) which are dimmer in both brt and dim when activated by the EIS. My only conclusion is that instead of a direct ground path supplied by the EIS, there is an electronically switched path that still has "some" resistance, adding to the total circuit resistance. I have reduced the supply resistors to these two LED modules from 240 to 120 ohms with improved performance, but still not as bright as the other ones on the board, particularly in the dim position, but they are still bright enough to get your attention at night (they flash until acknowledged on the EIS) and basically equivalent to the others when in the bright position. The rocker switches universally are a little brighter than I'd prefer with the blue one on the "FLASH" (wig-wag) switch bright enough to bore a small hole through yer skull! Individual resistors can be added to the ground connections for these switches individually and their "volume" attenuated appropriately, however. Just gotta get around to it! I'd like to add here that with a "normal" lifespan of approximately 100,000 hours, overdriving these little dudes to even 40 mV for a more attention-getting appearance is no crime, as their normal duty cycles had better be measured in mere seconds or minutes considering their application! Just don't feed 'em 12 volts 'cause they will emulate Neil Young's words in that they will "burn out" rather rapidly instead of "fade away"!! (Ask Me How I Know This!) This has been a lot of fun playing with, sometimes frustrating, but indicates that when trying to "mix & match" these critters that if you like to experiment, you will have more fun than anyone deserves!! Understand the fundamentals then proceed with all abandon!!! Have fun From The PossumWorks in TN Mark - RV-6A N51PW ready to go to the airport- all electric, "mostly" LED "almost" flying machine with attitude!!!!! In a message dated 11/26/2003 6:32:18 PM Central Standard Time, scott_m_richardson(at)sbcglobal.net writes: Couple of questions on LED characteristics... I'm planning on using LED indicators for the annunciator lights on my panel and most that I see are rated at 12V or 24V. Am I going to do anything to their stability or life by running them at the 13.8V of an aircraft electrical system? or down at the 10.5V of a near-dead battery? I'm just not sure what the range of acceptable voltages is. Along these lines, I'd like to but in a bright-dim circuit for all my annunciators that might be running them at a voltage in the 5-8V range. Do LED's dim well or do they have a lower cutoff voltage where they simply stop producing light. Thanks for any advice... Scott = == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: quote ...
> > > -------------------------------------------- > ( A beginning of the end is marked by ) > ( replacement of experience and common ) > ( sense with policy and procedures. ) > ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) > -------------------------------------------- > > > Bob, can I use your quote? The T-34 wing spar issue is >"heating up" in light of the recent crash near Houston. > > > It is now starting to appear the wing failure was, among >other issues, due to enormous overloading of the structure. There is a lot >of concern that the FAA may decide to do the wrong thing with policy and >procedures! Your quote might come in handy. The idea was around long before I published it and will be long after I'm gone . . . feel free to treat it as your own. Simple-ideas belong to anyone who understands them and can assemble them into useful systems. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Braly <gwbraly(at)gami.com>
Subject: Infernal congestion engines
Date: Nov 27, 2003
John, Those are interesting comments - - but applying that logic, there would be no "negative" torque on an eight (four power strokes per 360 degrees) cylinder engine, either. But there is. Even V-12 and V16s have negative torque response on the crank shaft. In general, more power pulses per revolution tend to make things better ... but that is also a function of the geometry of the engine. But 1700 PSI peak cylinder pressures are very high and they happen in a very short period of time in the diesel - - compared to the spark ignition engine. If he has not put strain gages on the crankshaft and measured the actual torque response at high sample rates as a function of crank angle in real time, then, with all due respect, he is simply speculating. We demonstrate and display this data in real time at every advanced pilot seminar we conduct. If he has the data, he should be able to send it to you via a return email. If he doesn't have the data, well, then take what is said accordingly. "Q: What are you planning to put on for a propeller? I know that horsepower is going to run around 200, but what about the torque from a diesel? It could rip the blades off the hub. A: The torque peaks from the diesel are only about 60% of the peaks the Lycoming puts out. We have four smaller power pulses per revolution versus two large peaks from the Lycoming. (They are 4-cycle -- two cylinders fire per revolution of the propeller. We are 2-cycle -- all four cylinders fire per revolution of the propeller.) Thus the torque "ripple" is much less. We never go negative on the torque delivered to the propeller because we have about 25 degrees of overlap on the power stroke between cylinders. The four cylinder 4-cycle engine has about 30 degrees of negative torque where the propeller drives the engine. So, while we haven't finalized the optimal propellers for the engine, it will not require any special strength considerations." You can read more at -John R. George Braly wrote: > > > > >>> Not at all. It depends on what you think "less violent" >>> >>> >means.<< > > Well... I do know what "less violent" means in the context of an >engineering analysis of the engine. > >Any good textbook on the subject will describe (try Taylor, C.F., ) the >issue. And it is not what the pilot thinks of the engine in the cockpit. > >When one begins to design the engine, the first thing one must define is the >internal gas pressures above the piston. Diesel engines run about 2x higher >on average at cruise. > >Your two stroke three cylinder inline engine may be subjectively wonderful - >- in the cockpit - - but it may also play hell with propellers and >accessories. > >Which is why I asked for data, rather than subjective impressions. I have >a few gigabytes of crankshaft torsional data - - and it sure as the devil >correlates very closely to peak internal cylinder pressures. > >Of course, if one runs it fast enough and then gears down for the prop, you >can make a really ugly internal combustion engine (diesel or spark ignition) >appear to be smooth to the folks in the cockpit. > >Regards, George > > >--- > > > > --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org>
Subject: Re: LED questions
Date: Nov 27, 2003
John, Thanks -- anything you have to hand from the archive would be well appreciated (any format will do nicely). I'm trying to get some background knowledge about using LEDs for general panel / cabin lighting. Mark sent over details of his neat annunciator panel solution, and it's inked into the panel design now. Photos of Mark's panel certainly look good, and I can't wait to get the finished annunciator into the panel. Cheers. Nev -- Jodel D-150 in progress UK ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED questions > > Neville - > > Bob has already done what you requested. The archives should have a couple > of long replies about LEDs that Bob authored. I keep a running log of a > lot of his answers and can send you what I have. One is a file in MS Word > and one or two in .pdf format. Let me know if you can take them as > attachments to an email. > > Mark Phillips hangs out on this list and developed a very neat solution > for an annunciator panel that uses a zener diode and a switch to dim the > modules. Each module has 3 LED's in it. YOu can get these in red, gree, > and yellow. Neat stuff. I have a copy of his AutoCAD file. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org>
Subject: Re: LED questions
Date: Nov 27, 2003
Ah! Bit of a smooth operator is he? Have you met his new bird? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED questions > > John, > > Thanks -- anything you have to hand from the archive would be well > appreciated (any format will do nicely). I'm trying to get some background > knowledge about using LEDs for general panel / cabin lighting. > > Mark sent over details of his neat annunciator panel solution, and it's inked > into the panel design now. Photos of Mark's panel certainly look good, and I > can't wait to get the finished annunciator into the panel. > > Cheers. > > Nev > > -- > Jodel D-150 in progress > UK > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED questions > > > > > > > Neville - > > > > Bob has already done what you requested. The archives should have a couple > > of long replies about LEDs that Bob authored. I keep a running log of a > > lot of his answers and can send you what I have. One is a file in MS Word > > and one or two in .pdf format. Let me know if you can take them as > > attachments to an email. > > > > Mark Phillips hangs out on this list and developed a very neat solution > > for an annunciator panel that uses a zener diode and a switch to dim the > > modules. Each module has 3 LED's in it. YOu can get these in red, gree, > > and yellow. Neat stuff. I have a copy of his AutoCAD file. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: Jimmy <jhankin(at)planters.net>
Subject: Re: LED questions
I am new to this list and have a question about cabin lightening. I fly a Kolb Firefly and use a Lowence 100 GPS. I have problems seeing the GPS. Is there any way I can light up the dial so I can see what is displayed? Jimmy Hankinson 912-863-7384 Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455 jhankin(at)planters.net Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Infernal congestion engines
> > > >> Not at all. It depends on what you think "less violent" >means.<< This is an interesting example of how inexact vernacular can dilute or even obscure real meaning. We are immersed in propaganda rich with glowing adjectives and soaring superlatives trying to sell us stuff. It's easy to let this imprecise speech creep into discussions where it's important to communicate at a common level of understanding. Lord Kelvin (see: http://www.iec.ch/about/history/lkbio-e.htm ) was quoted as noting ""When you can measure it, you know something about it." The act of measuring and then describing behavior or characteristics in numerical or graphical form is a powerful foundation of understanding. I will be the last to suggest that every sentence sprinkled with non-quantifying adjectives and superlatives is suspect . . . but I will suggest that you're doing the speaker and yourself a disservice if you don't ask to hear or see the MEASUREMENTS that support the words. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "NEMuzzy" <list01(at)GourmetDamage.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Re: Future replacement for Rotax (Deere Dynamo
on eBay)
Date: Nov 27, 2003
Fellow re-routers of wayward electrons- Here is a link to check for some more details on the dynamo and the regulator. Note that the RS5115 regulator is listed as an 'open type' as compared to the RS4131 'short type'. The AM101406 regulator looks to be a slightly different version of the RS5115. http://www.kokusandenki.co.jp/english/main.htm I am cleaning up the shop, and will be putting some of the surplus on eBay. The Nippondenso 40 A alternator and the 20Amp dynamo are the first to go. Do a search for 'Dynamo Deere' and you will find it. I bought these with the intention of using them on a Mazda 13B. When I bought the IO360, I decided to go with the B&C bolt-on alternator and SD8. That's the nice thing about Lycomings- you can buy everything you need with a credit card! (This may be a duplicate message, I am having trouble getting a new address set up for the spam monsters to use!) Regards- Norm Muzzy Flying Cozy Mk IV IO-360A3B6D Dual Lightspeed Z-13 w/ aux battery ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Lemen" <tedlem(at)ecentral.com>
Subject: RG58
Date: Nov 27, 2003
Will the crimping tool for RG 400 also work on RG 58? I am talking about the tool that B&C sells. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Lemen" <tedlem(at)ecentral.com>
Subject: crimper
Date: Nov 27, 2003
Can you use the "hex crimper" sold by B&C to crimp "round type" BNC connectors? I tried it and it seemed ok. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: crimper
Date: Nov 27, 2003
That's exactly what it's supposed to do. If you think of the cross-sectional area of the ferrule that you're crimping, before it's crimped, it's a circle. A circle has the largest volume inside for a given circumfrence. If you change the shape of the circle in any way, the volume decreases. When you change the shape of the ferrule to a hex shape, it decreases in volume and compresses evenly on the wire. Dan Branstrom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Lemen" <tedlem(at)ecentral.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: crimper > > Can you use the "hex crimper" sold by B&C to crimp "round type" BNC > connectors? I tried it and it seemed ok. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net> engines
Subject: MEASUREMENTS -- WAS:Infernal congestion
engines engines > > > The act of measuring and then describing behavior > or characteristics in numerical or graphical form > is a powerful foundation of understanding. I was trying to buy a piece of real estate when the agent asked, "Are you an engineer?". I replied that I was and asked how he guessed. He said, "Every engineer I deal with wants measurements on everything!". YES!! Mathematics is the foundation of our modern world. K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now. PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net> (Deere Dynamo on eBay)
Subject: Re: RE: Re: Future replacement for Rotax
(Deere Dynamo on eBay) (Deere Dynamo on eBay) > That's the nice >thing about Lycomings- you can buy everything you need with a credit card! You must have one hell of a limit! hal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 27, 2003
Subject: Pitch Trim Help
11/27/2003 Hello Electrical Types, I am again seeking your help. Here is the situation: I devised a pitch trim system for my airplane that consisted of a MAC trim servo applying a spring bias force to the elevator push rod through levers and springs. No tab on the elevator. During flight testing I learned that the MAC servo was not strong enough (supposed to provide 40 pounds of force) to properly trim the elevator. It is not possible to change the leverage and still retain enough trim travel. What I am seeking is a linear actuator, 12 volt system, 4 to 6 inches of travel, about 80 to 100 pounds of force or greater. Perhaps some automobile linear actuator such as from a window or sliding door for a van may be suitable. I would appreciate any recommendations or comments that you may have. Thank you. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> rectifier/regulator ?
Subject: Re: Future replacement for Rotax
rectifier/regulator ? ? He should be making one for the UL 2-stroke Rotaxs - there is a need for a low heat, low engine loading regulator for these engine. The Keywest good for 10 amps is a shunt type regulator, regulating the output by shunting (effectively shorting) the lighting coil. By doing so it cause heat and it also places a load upon the engine. A switching regular would be the perfect solution but it would have to tolerate vibration and shock. Switchers tend to use larger heavy components that don't like forces or vibration - packaging and component selection would be a key factor to reliability. jerb > rectifier/regulator ? > > ><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > > >Hi Bob and all, > > > >This is to let you know that a fellow pilot and electrics researcher is > >willing to undertake the design of a more modern rectifier/regulator for the > >Rotax 912/914 PM alternator. He is talking about switching and chopping and > >low heat. > >We happily offered to flight test the future design. > >We just spent the afternoon sorting out the schematics of the present > >regulator. I passed him a stator and rotor to allow for basic measurements > >and components dimensioning. > > I've considered this approach for years . . . the pot's just too far back > on the stove to stir. If he'd like to collaborate, I'll offer a sounding > board for ideas and hawk the product for him here on the AEC site if > the result is suitably impressive. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Pitch Trim Help
Hello BAKEROCB(at)aol.com wrote: A few thoughts: I took a look inside my Ray Allen T4-5 servo that is smaller than you want, but it just has a gear that screws on a brass threaded rod. I think just a small amount of innovation could give you a length of rod what you would like, you would need to install end stops. Other ideas take a look at model sailboat servos, also model plane landing gear servos for huge scale, look at Hitec RCDs site: http://www.hitecrcd.com/product_fs.htm Take a look at servo city, especial sprockets and gears: http://www.servocity.com/ServoCity/Products/Sprockets__Gears__Chain/sprockets__gears__chain.html and gearboxes http://www.servocity.com/ServoCity/Products/Servo_Power_Gearboxes/servo_power_gearboxes.html fool around at both sites, you may find something you could use Winding a cable or chain, either like a copier or garage door opener? You could check out one of my favorite companies of all time mcmaster carr www.mcmaster.com They sell to public with a credit card. open 24 hours a day. Check out Inline electromechanical Actuators, electromechanical actuators, Often if you see something close, it can put you on track. you can get quotes from McMaster on stuff you want. For instance if they offer the exact you are looking for, but in 24 volts, ask for a quote on a 12 volt unit. Often the quote will come back with MFGs name, so you can further investigate. Good Luck Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
Subject: Re: Pitch Trim Help
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
How about a 12 volt electric drill motor? Alex Strong makes a pitch trim system for canard airplanes that use this type of motor. Drills that use these motors are available at Harbor Freight for less than $20. You will have to work out a control scheme. Have a look at: http://strongpitchtrim.com/ I don't know what kind of torque spec these would meet. Regards, Matt- N34RD > > 11/27/2003 > > Hello Electrical Types, I am again seeking your help. Here is the > situation: > > I devised a pitch trim system for my airplane that consisted of a MAC > trim servo applying a spring bias force to the elevator push rod > through levers and springs. No tab on the elevator. During flight > testing I learned that the MAC servo was not strong enough (supposed to > provide 40 pounds of force) to properly trim the elevator. It is not > possible to change the leverage and still retain enough trim travel. > > What I am seeking is a linear actuator, 12 volt system, 4 to 6 inches of > travel, about 80 to 100 pounds of force or greater. > > Perhaps some automobile linear actuator such as from a window or sliding > door for a van may be suitable. I would appreciate any recommendations > or comments that you may have. Thank you. > > 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: RE: Pitch Trim Help
Date: Nov 27, 2003
Subject: From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com >During flight testing I learned that the MAC >servo was not strong enough (supposed to provide 40 pounds of force) to >properly trim the elevator. It is not possible to change the leverage and still >retain enough trim travel. >What I am seeking is a linear actuator, 12 volt system, 4 to 6 inches of >travel, about 80 to 100 pounds of force or greater. "OC"--- get a $1 flea market battery-powered drill or screwdriver that has a dead battery and operates on something around 12V. Tear it apart. Use the inside module to drive a fine pitched screw, ball screw or whatever. Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: "Jim V. Wickert" <JimW_btg(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Pitch Trim Help
The units at Harbor frt are not 12volt. You will have to make a DC to DC converter which is quite simple and is available in a book for Radio Shack. I also have a source for 12 volt motors with gearboxes mounted on them that will give you 609 RPM or 120 RPM depending on the speed you need. They run about $30 with leads and connector. Jim Wickert Vision #159 Tel 920-467-0219 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Braly <gwbraly(at)gami.com>
Subject: Infernal congestion engines
Date: Nov 27, 2003
"When you can measure it, you know something about it." Bob, We use the full quote as a pace breaker during seminars. But we list the author as Billy Thomson. Then give away a T-shirt to anybody who can come up with Lord Kelvin. We measure peak torsionals that are about 3x the mean torque. Actually +- 3x the mean torque. The diesel engines are closer to 5x. This means that if you want to put a diesel in your 172, you need to re-evaluate the engine mounts, since they were never designed for those kinds of reaction loads. George ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pitch Trim Help
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: "David Chalmers" <David(at)ChalmersFamily.com>
Check out Electrak linear actuators http://www.powerdrives.com/electrak/ I used one of these for my airbrake actuator. Used to be made by Warner Electric but seem to be sold by Danaher now. Electrak 1 go up to 75 pounds. Eletrak 2 go to 250 pounds. I have an Electrak 1 S12-17A8-02 (12V, 4" throw, 75 pound load) that I don't need if you're interested. Dave -----Original Message----- From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com [mailto:BAKEROCB(at)aol.com] Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitch Trim Help 11/27/2003 Hello Electrical Types, I am again seeking your help. Here is the situation: I devised a pitch trim system for my airplane that consisted of a MAC trim servo applying a spring bias force to the elevator push rod through levers and springs. No tab on the elevator. During flight testing I learned that the MAC servo was not strong enough (supposed to provide 40 pounds of force) to properly trim the elevator. It is not possible to change the leverage and still retain enough trim travel. What I am seeking is a linear actuator, 12 volt system, 4 to 6 inches of travel, about 80 to 100 pounds of force or greater. Perhaps some automobile linear actuator such as from a window or sliding door for a van may be suitable. I would appreciate any recommendations or comments that you may have. Thank you. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: Pitch Trim Help
Have you tried the Strong pitch trim servo? http://www.strongpitchtrim.com/ I believe it is rated at 40 lbs. Wait a minute... if you're putting 80 to 100 lbs of force on that thing, how are you planning to override it? And what kind of plane requires 80 to 100 lbs of force to operate the elevators anyway? Dave Morris > >11/27/2003 > >Hello Electrical Types, I am again seeking your help. Here is the situation: > >I devised a pitch trim system for my airplane that consisted of a MAC trim >servo applying a spring bias force to the elevator push rod through levers >and >springs. No tab on the elevator. During flight testing I learned that the MAC >servo was not strong enough (supposed to provide 40 pounds of force) to >properly trim the elevator. It is not possible to change the leverage and >still >retain enough trim travel. > >What I am seeking is a linear actuator, 12 volt system, 4 to 6 inches of >travel, about 80 to 100 pounds of force or greater. > >Perhaps some automobile linear actuator such as from a window or sliding door >for a van may be suitable. I would appreciate any recommendations or comments >that you may have. Thank you. > >'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 27, 2003
Subject: Re: LED questions
Thanks for your interest- here are the files, but be patient as they are a bit obese and if you are dial-up (like me, dammit!!) will take a bit of d-load time. I'm going to try to send them one at a time as I'd rather not bore you with the indignity of unzipping stuff that my new freakin' AOL account requires!!! First will be the two ACAD drawings, 6a is the annunciator circuit drawing, 6b is the board layout- I just took all the wires out to a 15 pin d-sub on a pigtail about 5 inches long. Next will be a couple of fotos of the board that are rather large to show detail. If you have any questions, you know where to find me! From The PossumWorks in TN Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2003
From: kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pitch Trim Help
> > >The units at Harbor frt are not 12volt. Lots of 12V motors at Pick n Pull and other auto wrecking yards. hal ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2003
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: What Listers Are Saying III
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2003
From: Matt Jurotich <mjurotich(at)hst.nasa.gov>
Subject: Best CAD for printing
Bob and All Of the 3 CAD programs on the CD, which is best for printing and which is best if you want to modify? Thanks Matthew M. Jurotich NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center Swales contractor to the JWST ISIM Systems Engineer m/c : 443 e-mail mail to: phone : 301-286-5919 fax : 301-286-1736 JWST URL: <http://ngst1.gsfc.nasa.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: Re: Removing Molex KK Pins
Date: Nov 28, 2003
Bob, Thanks again for great advice, but I wanted to pass something along to the others as well. While looking at a local electronics store, I happened across a Molex .156" extractor tool...and it was only $2.50. So, I threw it in the bag with the other connectors I was actually after. Got home and tried it on a couple of pins - it worked on a few just fine, then it happened....on a particularly difficult pin, I slipped and it broke the tiny tip off. (Grrrrr!) My wife heard the explicative coming from garage and came out to see what was wrong. After showing her the broken toll, she said "Wait just a sec" and went back into the house. A few seconds later, she came back with a "bobby-pin" and said, "Will this work?" Ha!!! Not only did it work, it worked BETTER than the actual tool!!! Perfect width, and slightly thinner, so it was easier to get under the pins. ...and yes, I will be posting this on my website under the "innovations" section for those wanting pictures. Just goes to show...some of the simplest solutions often go overlooked. ..keep your eyes open out there! James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX www.berkut13.com > I've made dozens of extraction tools for various > tab-retained connector pins by cutting down a > pocket screwdriver as shown here: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/extraction_tool.jpg > > You need to grind gently so that the shank doesn't get so > hot that it melts the plastic handle. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: S-Tec 30 testing woes....
Date: Nov 28, 2003
Folks, I have been testing my panel components as I go along and have run into a particularly ornery piece of equipment to troubleshoot. I don't want to 'blame the box' immediately so I thought that I would ask around first. Here's what I have: S-Tec 30 dual axis autopilot coupled to, NSD1000 HSI and UPSAT GX60/SL30/ACU via S-Tec GPSS (steering) switch. Here's the itch: With the autopilot gyro all spooled up, I first get the ready light and the four inner lights lit as it goes through its self test...then the four inner lights go out and the ready light only stays on. This is without the pitch computer's cable attached (seems normal to me). When I attach the pitch computer's cable attached, the unit never comes up as ready. I've run all of the wiring to make sure that there are no opens or shorts....good to go. I have power on the power pin at the pitch computer's connector but I don't have the 10VDC at the alt hold disconnect switch wire (its wires are good too). Anyone else out there had this problem? I'm beginning to suspect the pitch computer unit...! Any help would be greatly appreciated, Ralph Capen RV6A Richardson, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gilles.Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Removing Molex KK Pins
Date: Nov 29, 2003
A few seconds later, she came back with a > "bobby-pin" and said, "Will this work?" Ha!!! Not only did it work, it James, What is a bobby pin ? Thanks, Gilles ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 28, 2003
Subject: Re: Removing Molex KK Pins
In a message dated 11/28/2003 5:56:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, james(at)berkut13.com writes: A few seconds later, she came back with a "bobby-pin" and said, "Will this work?" Ha!!! Not only did it work, it worked BETTER than the actual tool!!! Perfect width, and slightly thinner, so it was easier to get under the pins. ...and yes, I will be posting this on my website under the "innovations" section for those wanting pictures. Just goes to show...some of the simplest solutions often go overlooked. ..keep your eyes open out there! James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX www.berkut13.com James, I have used pieces of hacksaw blades reshaped on the bench grinder to make various extractor tools over the years. Brass tubing can be fashioned into extractors for round pins too. John P. Marzluf Columbus, Ohio Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 28, 2003
Subject: Re: Removing Molex KK Pins
In a message dated 11/28/2003 6:51:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr writes: What is a bobby pin ? Thanks, Gilles They were pieces of jewelry worn with bobby socks! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2003
From: "kayce" <kayce(at)sysmatrix.net>
Subject: Re: Removing Molex KK Pins
Sorry to correct you, but bobby pins are used by women in doing their hair, thin flat metal a very tight ubend, about a 2-3 mm loop at one, end & parallel about 5-6mm from the loop & touching,total about 1.5- 2" long.A hair pin is another type pin, Picture a paper clip with only one bend. Harold.. RV-9 --------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:04:42 EST > >In a message dated 11/28/2003 6:51:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, >Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr writes: >What is a bobby pin ? >Thanks, >Gilles >They were pieces of jewelry worn with bobby socks! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: S-Tec 30 testing woes....
Date: Nov 28, 2003
Ralph, Watch the NFL tomorrow and then Monday morning give S-Tec tech support a call. I've found them to be very helpful. Bill Glasair ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: S-Tec 30 testing woes.... > > Folks, > > I have been testing my panel components as I go along and have run into a particularly ornery piece of equipment to troubleshoot. I don't want to 'blame the box' immediately so I thought that I would ask around first. > > Here's what I have: > > S-Tec 30 dual axis autopilot coupled to, > NSD1000 HSI and > UPSAT GX60/SL30/ACU via > S-Tec GPSS (steering) switch. > > Here's the itch: > > With the autopilot gyro all spooled up, I first get the ready light and the four inner lights lit as it goes through its self test...then the four inner lights go out and the ready light only stays on. This is without the pitch computer's cable attached (seems normal to me). > > When I attach the pitch computer's cable attached, the unit never comes up as ready. I've run all of the wiring to make sure that there are no opens or shorts....good to go. I have power on the power pin at the pitch computer's connector but I don't have the 10VDC at the alt hold disconnect switch wire (its wires are good too). > > Anyone else out there had this problem? I'm beginning to suspect the pitch computer unit...! > > Any help would be greatly appreciated, > Ralph Capen > RV6A Richardson, TX > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Delano" <m.delano(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: headsets
Date: Nov 28, 2003
I am experiencing an interesting problem with 4 David Clark Headsets two DC10-30 and two DC10-13.4 . As the 40 hr has been completed it was time to check out the intercom again in preparation for having a passenger. I set up the intercom originally using 2 DC 10-30 headsets with an Icom A200 transceivers internal intercom. The 10-30s work fine together, however the mics are not as noise canceling as a DC 10-13.4 that I have been using for the test flights. When I plug both DC10-13.4 sets in only one mic will work, no sidetone or intercom on the older of the headsets. When I substitute the non working DC10-13.4 with the DC10-30s one mic works and the other 10-30 will not. Note all 4 headsets work when they are the only set plugged in, and the mic jacks are a simple daisey chain. What gives? Mark Delano RV6A 40.4 hr. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: Re: Removing Molex KK Pins
Date: Nov 28, 2003
OK...I promise I will post pictures and data on the web site tonight for those still wondering what a bobby-pin is....sorry to invoke a cultural accessory debate. ;-) The "pin" in question is actually and commonly called a "bobby pin" (as also defined by Webster), used on women's hair but not to be confused with a 'U' shaped hairpin, a barrette, hair clip, or even a scrunchi. ...I hope this makes sense, as my wife is feeding me this information...I'm just typing. I don't know about any usage with socks, but the pin is about 2" in length, has only one rounded bend at one end, clamps together in the center and has a slightly upturned end on one prong. I think one of the posts also had an accurate description. Again, pics will be on the site later tonight - that should remove all doubts. James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX www.berkut13.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "kayce" <kayce(at)sysmatrix.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Removing Molex KK Pins > > Sorry to correct you, but bobby pins are used by women in doing their hair, thin flat metal a very tight ubend, about a 2-3 mm loop at one, end & parallel about 5-6mm from the loop & touching,total about 1.5- 2" long.A hair pin is another type pin, Picture a paper clip with only one bend. > Harold.. RV-9 > --------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com > Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:04:42 EST > > > > >In a message dated 11/28/2003 6:51:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr writes: > >What is a bobby pin ? > >Thanks, > >Gilles > >They were pieces of jewelry worn with bobby socks! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Best CAD for printing
> > >Bob and All > >Of the 3 CAD programs on the CD, which is best for printing and which is >best if you want to modify? > >Thanks > > >Matthew M. Jurotich > >NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center >Swales contractor to the >JWST ISIM Systems Engineer > >m/c : 443 >e-mail mail to: >phone : 301-286-5919 >fax : 301-286-1736 > > >JWST URL: <http://ngst1.gsfc.nasa.gov I prefer Autocad. You'll need to generate install disks. Have 4 floppies handy and call the "makeset.bat" file. Insert disks as they are called for. Then start with #1 to do a pristine install of LT 1.0 for Windows. It will flawlessly open all the .dwg files I publish, edit and print them. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bob, need info on microair com/xpdr
> >Hi Bob, >I downloaded the operation maual. Thanks. >I still have a question though. On your wiring diagram, REV A 11-5-2 page >0.0, you have the audio beep (assume is same as alert tone described on page >17 of operations manual) wired from pin #1 to the auxilary audio in on iso >amp. It appears that the audio in on iso amp is this an optional piece of >equipment that doesn't come with the xpdr and I don't have to wire this. >True? true. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org>
Subject: COM antenna feedback
Date: Nov 29, 2003
Just wanted to let you guys know about my COM antenna. It's a straight (read: cheap - $17.85) stainless rod antenna from Aircraft Spruce with a six-spoke groundplane made from 2.5" wide strips of .020" aluminium. It's all mounted vertically upside-down inside the Jodel's wood fuselage. Connections to the rod and groundplane are made with PIDG ring terminals. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I tried it today for the first time by connecting the coax to an Icom hand-held radio, and it worked a treat! Radio signals were clear as a bell, and I could hear stations from a great distance. All this was on the ground in the hangar, so I'm thinking the in-air performance will be even better. So... thanks for the advice, Bob -- looks as though it's going to work a treat. Nev -- Jodel D-150 in progress UK ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Best CAD for printing
From: Antonio Augusto Todo Bom Neto <antonio(at)projetos.etc.br>
Date: Nov 29, 2003
Organization: LAX Eletr\303\264nica e teleco... Just for notes: To an EDA (Eletronic Design Automation) I use gEDA professionally in my office. I believe that is great for Electric and Electronic design. Is GPL ans is expanding to fast. Now it runs over Linux and Windows too (using MinGW) Regards, Antonio Augusto Todo Bom Neto LAX Eletronica e Telecomunica=E7=F5es Ltda. Digital Signature: Please, look for my public key at: http://www.keyserver.net to verify this enclosed signature. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn(at)cox.net>
Subject: Aeroflash wiring
Date: Nov 29, 2003
I have installed Aeroflash power supplies in my RV7. One in the tail and one in each wing. Is there any need to run a ground forward to the firewall ground or is a local ground sufficient? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 29, 2003
Subject: Pitch Trim Help
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Dave Morris << Have you tried the Strong pitch trim servo? http://www.strongpitchtrim.com/ I believe it is rated at 40 lbs. Wait a minute... if you're putting 80 to 100 lbs of force on that thing, how are you planning to override it? And what kind of plane requires 80 to 100 lbs of force to operate the elevators anyway? Dave Morris >> 11/28/2003 Hello Dave, I really appreciate your input -- you raise a very good question. I think that there are two things wrong with my spring bias pitch trim design. One is very poor leverage, the other is use of tension rather than compression springs. Right now I feel like the Wright brothers who suffered years of failure before they successfully flew, but with the help of others I hope to overcome. In the meantime let me kick the can down the road a bit. 1) I believe that the fundamental precept of a spring bias pitch trim system is that one should be able to control the aircraft with reasonable stick pressures regardless of what the trim system does or does not do. Mine was designed and ground tested to accomplish this. In flight I had insufficient trim force, particularly nose down. 2) Using compression springs rather than tension springs is a superior approach, but I am not exactly sure of all the reasons thereof. I suspect that one of the reasons is that in the neutral state the compression springs do not have to be compressed nearly to the extent that the tension springs have to be stretched in their neutral state. 3) It is much easier to use tension springs than compression springs. Compression springs would normally encircle the push rod with some sort of electrically powered screw driven yoke in the center between the two springs. Collars are pinned or clamped to the push rod at the outer extremities of the two compression springs. But the push rod slides back and forth through the springs whenever the stick is moved so clearance and friction issues need to be considered and solved. This is fairly complex construction, particularly if you go through several trial and error efforts to come up with the right springs. 4) For a tension spring system one can just use worm gear hose clamps to hold some small metal corner brackets to the push tube where ever desired and fasten the tension spring ends to the brackets and the center movement lever with split rings. This is a much simpler and more easily modified construction, but as I have learned the tension spring and lever system can be a real gotcha. 5) I think the forces involved and the freedom of movement required are very deceptive. Try a little experiment: Go to some place in the elevator push rod run, forward of any idler if the system has one, and grab that place with your hand with the intention of not letting the push rod move fore or aft. Then have someone go to the trailing edge of the elevator and attempt to move it up and down. I think you will be surprised at how much leverage the person at the edge of the elevator has and how easily he can overpower the person attempting to prevent the push rod movement. Similarily if the person at the edge of the elevator goes to the cockpit and moves the control stick fore and aft at the grip he will also easily overpower the person attempting to prevent push rod movement at the rod itself. 6) As for freedom of movement, now envision that little MAC servo with 1.2 inches of movement maximum. Maybe the total fore and aft elevator push rod movement is on the order of only two or three inches, but A) the tension springs must be long enough so that the push rod can be moved by the control stick from one extreme to the other regardless of trim position, and B) the screw drive must be strong enough to overcome the adverse leverage created by the need to gain enough movement to accomplish the nose up or nose down trim force needed in spite of the forces on the elevator. 7) I think that a spring bias pitch trim system, either electrically or mechanically positioned, properly designed with compression springs, is superior to a trim tab system. Just examine the pitch trim systems on such modern airplanes as the Diamond DA20-C1 and Cirrus. Also note how huge the compression springs are. 8) I will concede that there is one significant drawback: If the push rod becomes disconnected from the elevator horn there is no pitch control available other than engine power modulation. In the case of a completely independent elevator trim tab system, either electrically or mechanicall operated, one still has some degree of pitch control. But like Bob Nuckolls points out from time to time, we don't really provide spare wings and propellers just in case the ones we primarily use may fail. 9) I guess the things that dismay and stymie me are: A) That throwing together an electrically driven pitch trim system is not all that simple, intuitive, and straight forward, and B) That our community doesn't already have several articles or plans floating around on how to build such systems. Have we let the type certificated crowd get ahead of us on this feature? Have I been asleep at the switch? 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 PS: Yes, I have just become aware of the Strong trim system and examined my elevator control system with a view to incorporating that trim system. So far I see no feasible incorporation method. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Aeroflash wiring
> >I have installed Aeroflash power supplies in my RV7. One in the tail and >one in each wing. Is there any need to run a ground forward to the >firewall ground or is a local ground sufficient? Local ground is fine. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: COM antenna feedback
> > >Just wanted to let you guys know about my COM antenna. It's a straight >(read: cheap - $17.85) stainless rod antenna from Aircraft Spruce with a >six-spoke groundplane made from 2.5" wide strips of .020" aluminium. It's >all mounted vertically upside-down inside the Jodel's wood fuselage. >Connections to the rod and groundplane are made with PIDG ring terminals. > >Anyway, to cut a long story short, I tried it today for the first time by >connecting the coax to an Icom hand-held radio, and it worked a treat! Radio >signals were clear as a bell, and I could hear stations from a great >distance. All this was on the ground in the hangar, so I'm thinking the >in-air performance will be even better. > >So... thanks for the advice, Bob -- looks as though it's going to work a >treat. It's neat that the laws of physics cannot be re-written nor ignored by anyone. Folks have been using this simple antenna design to good advantage for nearly 100 years. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey Steenson" <jsteenson1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Firewall Junction Box
Date: Nov 29, 2003
On the Murphy Elite I am building I have brought all my wires through one hole in the firewall, including the bundle from the E.I.S. engine monitor. My question is: What options should I be looking at to gather together neatly all the splices that must be mae to EGT and CHT probes? I was thinking of a simple aluminum cover over all of this. But are there boxes available for this purpose, without heading into the expensive certified world? Thanks in advance for your advice! Jeffrey Steenson ABQ, NM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: COM antenna feedback
Date: Nov 29, 2003
Would this system also work in a RV7, say mounting the antenna in the back of the luggage compartment one way or another, thanks, Franz -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: COM antenna feedback > > >Just wanted to let you guys know about my COM antenna. It's a straight >(read: cheap - $17.85) stainless rod antenna from Aircraft Spruce with a >six-spoke groundplane made from 2.5" wide strips of .020" aluminium. It's >all mounted vertically upside-down inside the Jodel's wood fuselage. >Connections to the rod and groundplane are made with PIDG ring terminals. > >Anyway, to cut a long story short, I tried it today for the first time by >connecting the coax to an Icom hand-held radio, and it worked a treat! Radio >signals were clear as a bell, and I could hear stations from a great >distance. All this was on the ground in the hangar, so I'm thinking the >in-air performance will be even better. > >So... thanks for the advice, Bob -- looks as though it's going to work a >treat. It's neat that the laws of physics cannot be re-written nor ignored by anyone. Folks have been using this simple antenna design to good advantage for nearly 100 years. Bob . . . --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Aeroflash wiring
Date: Nov 29, 2003
Thanks Bob!! Darwin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aeroflash wiring > > > > >I have installed Aeroflash power supplies in my RV7. One in the tail and > >one in each wing. Is there any need to run a ground forward to the > >firewall ground or is a local ground sufficient? > > Local ground is fine. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 29, 2003
Subject: Pitch Trim Help
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Dave Morris << Have you tried the Strong pitch trim servo? http://www.strongpitchtrim.com/ I believe it is rated at 40 lbs. Wait a minute... if you're putting 80 to 100 lbs of force on that thing, how are you planning to override it? And what kind of plane requires 80 to 100 lbs of force to operate the elevators anyway? Dave Morris >> 11/28/2003 Hello Dave, I really appreciate your input -- you raise a very good question. I think that there are two things wrong with my spring bias pitch trim design. One is very poor leverage, the other is use of tension rather than compression springs. Right now I feel like the Wright brothers who suffered years of failure before they successfully flew, but with the help of others I hope to overcome. In the meantime let me kick the can down the road a bit. 1) I believe that the fundamental precept of a spring bias pitch trim system is that one should be able to control the aircraft with reasonable stick pressures regardless of what the trim system does or does not do. Mine was designed and ground tested to accomplish this. In flight I had insufficient trim force, particularly nose down. 2) Using compression springs rather than tension springs is a superior approach, but I am not exactly sure of all the reasons thereof. I suspect that one of the reasons is that in the neutral state the compression springs do not have to be compressed nearly to the extent that the tension springs have to be stretched in their neutral state. 3) It is much easier to use tension springs than compression springs. Compression springs would normally encircle the push rod with some sort of electrically powered screw driven yoke in the center between the two springs. Collars are pinned or clamped to the push rod at the outer extremities of the two compression springs. But the push rod slides back and forth through the springs whenever the stick is moved so clearance and friction issues need to be considered and solved. This is fairly complex construction, particularly if you go through several trial and error efforts to come up with the right springs. 4) For a tension spring system one can just use worm gear hose clamps to hold some small metal corner brackets to the push tube where ever desired and fasten the tension spring ends to the brackets and the center movement lever with split rings. This is a much simpler and more easily modified construction, but as I have learned the tension spring and lever system can be a real gotcha. 5) I think the forces involved and the freedom of movement required are very deceptive. Try a little experiment: Go to some place in the elevator push rod run, forward of any idler if the system has one, and grab that place with your hand with the intention of not letting the push rod move fore or aft. Then have someone go to the trailing edge of the elevator and attempt to move it up and down. I think you will be surprised at how much leverage the person at the edge of the elevator has and how easily he can overpower the person attempting to prevent the push rod movement. Similarily if the person at the edge of the elevator goes to the cockpit and moves the control stick fore and aft at the grip he will also easily overpower the person attempting to prevent push rod movement at the rod itself. 6) As for freedom of movement, now envision that little MAC servo with 1.2 inches of movement maximum. Maybe the total fore and aft elevator push rod movement is on the order of only two or three inches, but A) the tension springs must be long enough so that the push rod can be moved by the control stick from one extreme to the other regardless of trim position, and B) the screw drive must be strong enough to overcome the adverse leverage created by the need to gain enough movement to accomplish the nose up or nose down trim force needed in spite of the forces on the elevator. 7) I think that a spring bias pitch trim system, either electrically or mechanically positioned, properly designed with compression springs, is superior to a trim tab system. Just examine the pitch trim systems on such modern airplanes as the Diamond DA20-C1 and Cirrus. Also note how huge the compression springs are. 8) I will concede that there is one significant drawback: If the push rod becomes disconnected from the elevator horn there is no pitch control available other than engine power modulation. In the case of a completely independent elevator trim tab system, either electrically or mechanicall operated, one still has some degree of pitch control. But like Bob Nuckolls points out from time to time, we don't really provide spare wings and propellers just in case the ones we primarily use may fail. 9) I guess the things that dismay and stymie me are: A) That throwing together an electrically driven pitch trim system is not all that simple, intuitive, and straight forward, and B) That our community doesn't already have several articles or plans floating around on how to build such systems. Have we let the type certificated crowd get ahead of us on this feature? Have I been asleep at the switch? 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 PS: Yes, I have just become aware of the Strong trim system and examined my elevator control system with a view to incorporating that trim system. So far I see no feasible incorporation method. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Firewall Junction Box
> > >On the Murphy Elite I am building I have brought all my wires through one >hole in the firewall, including the bundle from the E.I.S. engine monitor. >My question is: > >What options should I be looking at to gather together neatly all the >splices that must be mae to EGT and CHT probes? I was thinking of a simple >aluminum cover over all of this. But are there boxes available for this >purpose, without heading into the expensive certified world? See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html Most firewall penetrations carry a variety of systems wiring and fluid lines . . . I don't recall ever seeing a junction box on either side . . . but after you've brought the wires through a fire proof fitting, you could do about anything else you wished. I'd suggest keeping the number of breaks in any wiring to the lowest practical minimum. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: COM antenna feedback
> > >Would this system also work in a RV7, say mounting the antenna in the back >of the luggage compartment one way or another, thanks, >Franz On a metal airplane, you don't need the radials . . . just poke the antenna through the skin and ground the feedline shield to the skin at the base of the antenna. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
From: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: COM antenna feedback
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> >> >>Would this system also work in a RV7, say mounting the antenna in the back >>of the luggage compartment one way or another, thanks, >>Franz >> >> > > On a metal airplane, you don't need the radials . . . just > poke the antenna through the skin and ground the feedline shield > to the skin at the base of the antenna. > > Bob . . . > If I remember the original post correctly, the antenna was inside the fuselage. Just to be completely clear, it should be noted that the interior installation won't work in a metal skinned a/c. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com>
Subject: Re: Firewall Junction Box
Date: Nov 30, 2003
> What options should I be looking at to gather together neatly all the > splices that must be mae to EGT and CHT probes? I was thinking of a simple > aluminum cover over all of this. But are there boxes available for this > purpose, without heading into the expensive certified world? I have an "instrumentation" box on my firewall for MAP sensor, thermocouple amplifiers and tach circuitry. I have a hole thru the firewall for all of the wires, and I drilled a big hole in the back of an aluminum box and screwed the box to the front of the firewall. I can remove the cover for easy access to everything inside. I got the box from www.alliedelec.com. Gary Krysztopik Pelican PL w/Stratus EA-81 subaru 6.5 hours Newport, R.I. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: COM antenna feedback
> > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > >>Would this system also work in a RV7, say mounting the antenna in the back > >>of the luggage compartment one way or another, thanks, > >>Franz > >> > >> > > > > On a metal airplane, you don't need the radials . . . just > > poke the antenna through the skin and ground the feedline shield > > to the skin at the base of the antenna. > > > > Bob . . . > > > >If I remember the original post correctly, the antenna was inside the >fuselage. Just to be completely clear, it should be noted that the >interior installation won't work in a metal skinned a/c. Correct. That's why I said "poke the antenna through the skin" . . . and use the airplane itself as a ground plane. The single spike antenna with radials can be used on any RF transparent airplane to mount the antenna totally inside . . . or to make a poor-conductor structure (like carbon fiber) into a superior ground plane for mounting an antenna on an exterior surface. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
From: rsmith(at)frontier.net
Subject: Whelen Strobe Wiring
I recently purchase a "new" old stock Whelen A500A tail strobe/position light with a manuf. date of 5/90. Unlike my wing tip strobes which have a red (+), black (-), and white (trigger) wire, the wiring to the strobe portion has white, white with yellow stripe and white with blue stripe wires. The two wires to the position light are white and white with yellow stripe, but of course the polarity doesn't matter there. Can anyone tell me which wire is which? I emailed Whelen last week with the same question but have not heard back from them. Thanks, Rod Smith ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: COM antenna feedback
For anyone with a non-metal skin aircraft having trouble with the ground plane and/or wanting to try a different type of antenna that has a small amount of gain over the typical whip antenna, I've designed a loop antenna for composite aircraft that would also work on an aircraft with wood skin. The information is at http://www.davemorris.com/dave/MorrisDFLoop.html and the antenna can be squared off if your tail cone is more square than round. Dave Morris > > > > > > > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > >>Would this system also work in a RV7, say mounting the antenna in the > back > > >>of the luggage compartment one way or another, thanks, > > >>Franz > > >> > > >> > > > > > > On a metal airplane, you don't need the radials . . . just > > > poke the antenna through the skin and ground the feedline shield > > > to the skin at the base of the antenna. > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > > > >If I remember the original post correctly, the antenna was inside the > >fuselage. Just to be completely clear, it should be noted that the > >interior installation won't work in a metal skinned a/c. > > Correct. That's why I said "poke the antenna through the > skin" . . . and use the airplane itself as a ground plane. > The single spike antenna with radials can be used on > any RF transparent airplane to mount the antenna totally > inside . . . or to make a poor-conductor structure (like > carbon fiber) into a superior ground plane for mounting > an antenna on an exterior surface. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Attach bolts for SD20
Date: Nov 30, 2003
Thanks to all that responded....the studs/washers/lockwashers/nuts were there all along...for both the SD20 and my MT/Jihostroj prop gevernor. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Compass Advice
Date: Nov 30, 2003
identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or block similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Gentlemen, I'm in the process of laying out the instrument panel for my Glasair. I'm considering using a group of four 2.25" instruments to form a "backup group" for the Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS1 I'm installing. The reasoning is that, while I really like the electronic systems like the Dynon EFIS D10, it seems prudent to backup a solid-state, software based system using something with different failure modes. The four instruments would be: 1. T&B (electric) 2. Airspeed (mechanical) 3. Altimeter (mechanical) 4. Vertical Card Compass (not remote) [...] Content analysis details: (4.5 points, 5.0 required) 2.2 DATE_IN_FUTURE_12_24 Date: is 12 to 24 hours after Received: date Gentlemen, I'm in the process of laying out the instrument panel for my Glasair. I'm considering using a group of four 2.25" instruments to form a "backup group" for the Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS1 I'm installing. The reasoning is that, while I really like the electronic systems like the Dynon EFIS D10, it seems prudent to backup a solid-state, software based system using something with different failure modes. The four instruments would be: 1. T&B (electric) 2. Airspeed (mechanical) 3. Altimeter (mechanical) 4. Vertical Card Compass (not remote) Of course I'd prefer an AH to the T&B, but the non-software based AHs are all ridiculously expensive. I'd like to use the vertical card compass like a DG. What I'd like to do is install these four in a group near the EFIS1 screen in order that the transition (in event of EFIS failure) would be a non-event. The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not only puts the group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the electric T&B and the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a while back about a material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any of you know: 1. what the material is 2. if it's effective under circumstances like I've described 3. a source? Also, is there a robust, reasonably priced remote sensor type compass with a 2.25" readout that would work well in this group? Regards, Troy Scott tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 30, 2003
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
In a message dated 11/30/03 3:09:29 PM Central Standard Time, tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net writes: The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not only puts the group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the electric T&B and the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a while back about a material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any of you know: Good Afternoon Troy, May I respectfully suggest that you scratch the thought of having a magnetic compass in your emergency standby backup panel? The main thing you need to be able to do is stop any turn that has developed. Secondarily, you need to do whatever it takes to avoid a rapid change in altitude. Your airspeed and altimeter will give you all the information required to handle any pitch deviation and they require no electrical or pneumatic aid other than static and pitot pressure. Once again, the key thing is to be able to recognize and stop any turning motion that develops. Either a standard classic T&B or a Turn Coordinator will serve adequately for that purpose. Either one will be much more reliable and a LOT cheaper than having a standby Attitude Indicator. I feel that the most important thing is to be sure you are thinking turn, not "wings level." In the worst case scenario wherein the failure of your "glass" was not noted until after the aircraft has started to diverge from normal flight, it is likely that your mind will still be assuming things are "normal." I feel it is a lot easier to stop the turn by using a T&B and wait for your mind to realize what has happened than it is to recognize the problem, convince your mind that the instruments are correct, and then, initiate recovery. Small point to which I know many will not agree, but my vote is strongly in favor of a T&B rather than a TC. Back to the heading information. I feel that it would be best to find someplace in your airplane where a standard magnetic compass could be mounted such that it needs little or no compensation. That will be nice to have even when the "glass " is working perfectly. In that hopefully rare situation where the "glass" has failed and your are in an emergency mode. The main thing is to get the turn stopped. After that has been accomplished, and you have persuaded your mind to believe that the primary rate instruments are correct, it is relatively easy to glance at the stabilized compass to get correct heading information. In the event that turns are required, timed turns still work very well. Save the money and weight that you would other wise be spending for that vertical card compass. They rarely work very well even under the best of conditions. Sounds to me like you are definitely on the proper trail to excellent redundancy. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <jimk36(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
Date: Nov 30, 2003
Troy-- FWIW I sure agree with Old Bob. Verticle card compsses are not that great. And heading info is a third priority. If the airplane is right side up and level, an occasional glance at the whiskey compass is all you need. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Compass Advice > > Gentlemen, > I'm in the process of laying out the instrument panel for my Glasair. I'm considering using a group of four 2.25" instruments to form a "backup group" for the Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS1 I'm installing. The reasoning is that, while I really like the electronic systems like the Dynon EFIS D10, it seems prudent to backup a solid-state, software based system using something with different failure modes. The four instruments would be: > 1. T&B (electric) > 2. Airspeed (mechanical) > 3. Altimeter (mechanical) > 4. Vertical Card Compass (not remote) > > Of course I'd prefer an AH to the T&B, but the non-software based AHs are all ridiculously expensive. I'd like to use the vertical card compass like a DG. What I'd like to do is install these four in a group near the EFIS1 screen in order that the transition (in event of EFIS failure) would be a non-event. The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not only puts the group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the electric T&B and the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a while back about a material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any of you know: > 1. what the material is > 2. if it's effective under circumstances like I've described > 3. a source? > > Also, is there a robust, reasonably priced remote sensor type compass with a 2.25" readout that would work well in this group? > > Regards, > Troy Scott > tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Parks" <flightwork2(at)msn.com>
Subject: AEC9005-101LVWarn Auxiliary Battery Manager Wiring.
Date: Nov 30, 2003
Bob! I've finished installing your LVWABM in my all electric RV-7 per your installation dwg 9005-701B dated 9 February 2003. Turning the DC Master to the Bat position shows I have slightly over 12 volts on the voltmeter but the Lo Volts warning light does not flash. Turning the Aux Bat switch to the Auto position changes nothing. Turning the Aux Bat switch to the ON position lights up the Aux Battery On light. I'm not in a position to run the engine to charge the as yet, as the project is not ready to go to the airport yet. I'm just finishing up the wiring of the airframe while it's in the garage. Engine is hung, etc. I have two 18 hr SLA batteries mounted on the firewall with B&C 60 amp alternator and the generic Ford voltage regulator. Any suggestions as to what is wrong here. regards, Tom Parks RV-7 N620CF Groove on the latest from the hot new rock groups! Get downloads, videos, and more here. http://special.msn.com/entertainment/wiredformusic.armx ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
From: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
>Save the money and weight that you would other wise be spending for >that vertical card compass. They rarely work very well even under the best of conditions. I have a vertical card compass that I plan to install in my Lancair ES, and I've also wondered how much magnetic interference I'll face. I was talking to a Kitfox builder yesterday who is flying off his 40 hours. He has a vertical card compass mounted on top of the glareshield, not very far from an electric turn coordinator. He says the compass has works great. What have others experienced? Aircraft Spruce sells something called muMetal, which I understand is supposed to somehow shield the compass from electro-magnetic interference. You can find it on the same page as the Precision vertical card compass. I have no idea how well it works, or how to use it for that matter. Can anyone offer an opinion on this? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Compass Advice
Date: Nov 30, 2003
Troy, I am doing something very similar in my RV-8A -- BMA EFIS/one plus 2-1/4" ASI, Alt, VVI, T&B and vertical card compass. I put my hiking compass next to the EFIS/one screen to see if there was any difference with the screen on or off. I couldn't see any difference because the right base of the steel roll bar about 12" or so away was so strongly magnetic that it was magnetic north to anything within 18 or 24" of it. I have been waiting since July for a 2-1/4" R C Allen Turn and Bank, ordered through Chief Aircraft. Chief has no idea when they will get it and R C Allen doesn't respond to inquiries. I think the stuff you are looking for is called Mu metal. There should be something in the aeroelectric list archives. If not, try the RV list archives. I know it has been discussed. Just an added note about the altimeter. I bought a 2-1/4" 20,000' single needle altimeter with Kolsman window from UMA for about $200. Since then I discovered that sailplane pilots sometimes use a more conventionally configured multi-needle 2-1/4" altimeter from a company named Winter. The resolution on a single needle 20,000' small altimeter is better than nothing, but not by a whole lot. I think the Winter altimeter was pretty expensive - maybe $600 or so. I would also be interested in a 2-1/4" compass with a remote sensor. I think there is something like that available for sailboats. Terry Gentlemen, I'm in the process of laying out the instrument panel for my Glasair. I'm considering using a group of four 2.25" instruments to form a "backup group" for the Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS1 I'm installing. The reasoning is that, while I really like the electronic systems like the Dynon EFIS D10, it seems prudent to backup a solid-state, software based system using something with different failure modes. The four instruments would be: 1. T&B (electric) 2. Airspeed (mechanical) 3. Altimeter (mechanical) 4. Vertical Card Compass (not remote) Of course I'd prefer an AH to the T&B, but the non-software based AHs are all ridiculously expensive. I'd like to use the vertical card compass like a DG. What I'd like to do is install these four in a group near the EFIS1 screen in order that the transition (in event of EFIS failure) would be a non-event. The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not only puts the group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the electric T&B and the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a while back about a material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any of you know: 1. what the material is 2. if it's effective under circumstances like I've described 3. a source? Also, is there a robust, reasonably priced remote sensor type compass with a 2.25" readout that would work well in this group? Regards, Troy Scott tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Battery tester
Date: Nov 30, 2003
I was at the local Harbor Freight store yesterday and one of the things I looked at but did not buy was a battery tester. This thing was on sale for about $19, which I think was half price. It had a couple of jumper-cable type leads with big alligator grips, a digital readout and a spring loaded toggle switch labeled "load" that the instructions said to switch on for no more than 10 seconds. Might this be the kind of batter tester you have suggested, Bob? Here is a link to their catalog page: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=90250 I see that it's also available with an analog gauge. Terry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: Avionics question - NAV to AP
Date: Nov 30, 2003
I have a seemingly simple question for those who have gone before. The question background: I currently for standard NAV I have a King KN-53 (NAV+GS radio) and a King KI-204 indicator (VOR/LOC/GS with converter). I want to drive my NavAid AP-1 autopilot from NAV output of my King radio/indicator combo. The AP-1 requires Left/Right steering inputs, and the output from the KN-53 is composite (single wire for all data). Now, the indicator has a built-in converter that takes the composite signal and turns it into a L/R steering signal....however, I do not have the pin-outs for the 204 so I don't know if there is an output from it. The question(s): Is there a L/R steering output from the KI-204 that I can use? If so, what pins? Or, do I have to buy a KN-72 NAV converter just to connect the autopilot? Advice please! James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX www.berkut13.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
A $100 Wal-Mart GPS will tell you if you're turning or not. Dave Morris > >In a message dated 11/30/03 3:09:29 PM Central Standard Time, >tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net writes: >The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not only puts the >group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the electric >T&B and >the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a while back about a >material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local >electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any >of you know: >Good Afternoon Troy, > >May I respectfully suggest that you scratch the thought of having a magnetic >compass in your emergency standby backup panel? > >The main thing you need to be able to do is stop any turn that has developed. > Secondarily, you need to do whatever it takes to avoid a rapid change in >altitude. > >Your airspeed and altimeter will give you all the information required to >handle any pitch deviation and they require no electrical or pneumatic aid >other >than static and pitot pressure. > >Once again, the key thing is to be able to recognize and stop any turning >motion that develops. > >Either a standard classic T&B or a Turn Coordinator will serve adequately for >that purpose. Either one will be much more reliable and a LOT cheaper than >having a standby Attitude Indicator. > >I feel that the most important thing is to be sure you are thinking turn, not >"wings level." > >In the worst case scenario wherein the failure of your "glass" was not noted >until after the aircraft has started to diverge from normal flight, it is >likely that your mind will still be assuming things are "normal." I feel >it is a >lot easier to stop the turn by using a T&B and wait for your mind to realize >what has happened than it is to recognize the problem, convince your mind >that >the instruments are correct, and then, initiate recovery. > >Small point to which I know many will not agree, but my vote is strongly in >favor of a T&B rather than a TC. > >Back to the heading information. I feel that it would be best to find >someplace in your airplane where a standard magnetic compass could be >mounted such >that it needs little or no compensation. That will be nice to have even when >the "glass " is working perfectly. In that hopefully rare situation where >the >"glass" has failed and your are in an emergency mode. The main thing is to >get >the turn stopped. After that has been accomplished, and you have persuaded >your mind to believe that the primary rate instruments are correct, it is >relatively easy to glance at the stabilized compass to get correct heading >information. In the event that turns are required, timed turns still work >very well. > >Save the money and weight that you would other wise be spending for that >vertical card compass. They rarely work very well even under the best of >conditions. > >Sounds to me like you are definitely on the proper trail to excellent >redundancy. > >Happy Skies, > >Old Bob >AKA >Bob Siegfried >Ancient Aviator > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 30, 2003
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
In a message dated 11/30/03 5:02:26 PM Central Standard Time, dave(at)davemorris.com writes: A $100 Wal-Mart GPS will tell you if you're turning or not. GOOD POINT!!! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gilles.Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
Date: Nov 30, 2003
----- Message d'origine ----- De : : Envoy : dimanche 30 novembre 2003 22:39 Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Compass Advice > > In a message dated 11/30/03 3:09:29 PM Central Standard Time, > tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net writes: > The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not only puts the > group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the electric T&B and > the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a while back about a > material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local > electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any of you know: > Good Afternoon Troy, Must be "Mu-metal". Regards, Gilles ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
Date: Nov 30, 2003
Remember Mu-Metal BLOCKS magnetic fields. So don't wrap your compass in it. Use "Google" to search for Mu metal, and failing that buy from these nutballs--- http://www.cutcat.com/ Lots of sources for the stuff. If you have an old oscilloscope you want to trash, grab the can that covers the CRT. It's mu metal. I always wondered if anyone ever used the magnetic dip for navigation. Seems obvious. If a $100 dollar GPS from Wal-Mart can tell you which direction you are going, then a short stretch of technology will be able to tell you everything about the attitude, altitude, ground speed, and heading of the airplane. After all---we know where and at what angles those satellites are. File the patent, I'll take my standard fee. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
Date: Nov 30, 2003
Looks like we won't be needing that panel full of instruments after all. Just a spare one of these. See Magellan's MLR GA24 X http://www.magellangps.com/en/products/product.asp?PRODID=103 Compact and discreet, this "active antenna" houses a complete GPS receiver providing position, altitude, speed, course, satellite orbit information and reception signal levels at an update rate of 1 second. It is based on advanced technology with 12 parallel channels and dual acquisition for an even shorter time to first fix. Standard NMEA output allows easy integration into your communication and navigation systems. Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
From: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
...............................I read a while back about a >material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local >electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any >of you know: >Good Afternoon Troy, I doubt if there is a material able to tell a difference between a local and an external magnetic field. You can shield ALL magnetic field, both external and those generated in the plane if you use any of high magnetic permeability materials such as mu metal, permalloy etc., as a screen. Unfortunately, you are not going to like that "solution". Your compass with the magnetic field of the Earth blocked will turn around blind pointing some random directions. If you shield it only partially you will reduce the Earth's field and the local field by the same ratio, that will keep the compass error constant, but it will make compass much more sluggish due to the reduction of the Earth's field. So isolation of a compass is not a practical thing. You can compensate permanent local magnetic field, including those generated by permanent magnet like pieces of steel, as well as those generated by cables with constant direct current, but you do not need anything external for that. You can use a compensator which is built into any aviation grade compass, and make the compensation with the engine running and usual electrical devices switched on. Unfortunately, the electrical load in the plane is not constant. Sometimes you have to switch nav lights on, or pitot heat, landing lights etc. That means that you can make the compensation good for a typical flight configuration only. It is likely that the compass error might increase when you switch extra load on. These types of errors can be substantially reduced if you use two parallel wires connecting each device, one wire feeding the device from the bus and the other acting as a return to the common ground bus. These two wires should be as close as possible to each other, commonly they are twisted together. In such an arrangement these wires have currents equal but in opposite directions, so the magnetic fields generated by these wires at a distance much greater than diameter of the wires cancel each other almost perfectly. Same system of two parallel wires should be used for connection of the battery, alternator and the bus. For such an arrangement very little magnetic field is generated even from high current circuits. You could reduce the magnetic field generated by the wires further if you wrap magnetic shield material around the pairs of wires. Unfortunately, wires are long and shields like that would be heavy and rigid. As you can see magnetic isolation of wires is not a very practical thing either. For that reason magnetic shielding of wires is used only in very special applications which require extremely "quiet" magnetic environment, which is not the case for a regular airplane compass. If you wire your plane using twisted pairs of wires, you will have no problems with your compass. Jerzy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
rv8list(at)yahoogroups.com
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Turn and Bank - RC Allen vs Electrical Gyro Corp?
I need to buy a 3 1/8 inch electric turn and bank for the RV-8 I'm building. Aircraft Spruce sells two, and I'm wondering whether there is any reason to pick one over the other, other than the small price difference. Does any one have opinions on the performance and reliability of the RC Allen 56-3B vs the Electric Gyro Corp 1234T100. I'll probably call a gyro overhaul shop tomorrow to see if they will tell me anything useful. I'll fly some IFR, so I want a trust-worthy instrument. I'll also fly a fair bit of aerobatics, so I want one that is robust and overhaulable at a reasonable cost. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 30, 2003
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
In a message dated 11/30/03 7:38:13 PM Central Standard Time, emjones(at)charter.net writes: Compact and discreet, this "active antenna" houses a complete GPS receiver providing position, altitude, speed, course, satellite orbit information and reception signal levels at an update rate of 1 second. Good Evening Eric, Anybody know why it is not available in North America? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
From: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: trigger PTT.
Bob: I have a couple of stick grips which I can carve to hold whatever PTT switch I want. I'd like a trigger type switch with a weak spring positioned under my index finger. I could build something out of a plunger+spring+microswitch, I guess, but are you aware of any off the shelf trigger style momentary contact switches? I haven't been able to find any. Thanks, -- Tom Sargent RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
> >In a message dated 11/30/03 7:38:13 PM Central Standard Time, >emjones(at)charter.net writes: >Compact and discreet, this "active antenna" houses a complete GPS receiver >providing position, altitude, speed, course, satellite orbit information and >reception signal levels at an update rate of 1 second. >Good Evening Eric, > >Anybody know why it is not available in North America? No idea . . . but you can buy a GPS310 by Magellan at some sporting goods stores for as little as $90. You can get an optional adapter cable that will let you run the receiver from an external +12V power supply while taking the NMEA-183 serial data off two other wires. These data streams are described starting on page 32 of: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/GPS310.pdf I'll bet the "active antenna + receiver" costs more than a GPS-310 + adapter cable. Further, the active antenna can't be removed from the airplane and used independently on internal batteries and back-lighted display. I'll suggest the GPS310 is better value. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Electric Carb heat?
> I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my > Bing carb using Nichrome wire. I anticiapte that I would need to heat > the carb body up about 50F over amibent. I am still experimenting with > carb temps without heat, but theory claims it is possible to experinece > up to 80F temp loss due to vaporization of the fuel. I know little to > nothing about what I need to know, I just have a basic idea. I thought > to wrap the wire around the bing carb body to keep it warm at all times > without heating the intake air. How can I figure out: 1. What diameter > of wire to use, 2. what length of wire to use, 3. how to calculate the > wire temp given the use of a standard 12V system (13.5?) and, 4. can I > use some sort of variable input to regulate the heat output so to keep > the carbs at a constant temp throughout the extremes in OAT? this has been considered before . . . it was about 10 years ago that I had some discussions with some builders on Compuserve's avsig forum about electric carb heat. Problem is that you've got a LOT of cold air coming into the carb to run the engine. Let's assume a 100 cu" engine running 5000 rpm. If it's a 4-cycle, it sucks in about 100 cu" of cold air every two revolutions or 2500 x 100 cu"/minute. Density of air at sea level is about 1/800th that of water. Water and air have the same specific heat so you're needing to put the same temperature rise on 313 cu" of water/minute as 250,000 cu" of air/minute. To overcome additional cooling due to vaporization of fuel, I think I've heard a number of 40 degrees F tossed around. Okay cu" of water weighs .036 lb so 313 cu" weighs about 11 pounds. 40 degrees F rise on 11 pounds of water takes 440 BTU of heat/minute. 440 BTU per minute works out to 26400 BTU per hour. 1 watt is 3.4 BTU per hour. So 26,400/3.4 suggests your heater needs to good for about 7700 watts. If you have a 2 cycle engine, the volume of air doubles and so does the necessary power. These numbers seem in line with the kind of heat one might expect off a heater muff of an 80 hp piston engine . . . about 7 hair driers worth. Yub, one hair drier at 1000W is pretty whimpy heat for a cold cabin . . . been there, tried that. 7,000 watts doesn't seem unreasonable. That's about 550 amps of your 14 volt system. That's the sledge hammer approach to carb heat . . . warm ALL the incoming air such that carb ice is not only unable to form but can be shed after substantial ice has already formed. It's worked well on lots of airplanes since the early 1940's If one could concentrate the heat at places were ice collects, there might be a more efficient way to use less energy . . . but with nothing BETTER to do with gobs of waste heat going out the exhaust stacks, the heater muff was hard to beat for economical to operate and easy to fabricate and maintain. Eric, Dave, did I do that analysis right? In any case, I think you're going to find that it takes a whole lot more electric heat that you have available to do an adequate job of de-icing a carburetor. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
Sorry Eric, no patent opportunity for ya. I've already written the software to do what you described. The poor man's EFIS is at www.MyGlassCockpit.com. :) Dave Morris > >If a $100 dollar GPS from Wal-Mart can tell you which direction you are >going, then a short stretch of technology will be able to tell you >everything about the attitude, altitude, ground speed, and heading of the >airplane. After all---we know where and at what angles those satellites are. >File the patent, I'll take my standard fee. > >Regards, >Eric M. Jones >www.PerihelionDesign.com >113 Brentwood Drive >Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >Phone (508) 764-2072 >Email: emjones(at)charter.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Carb heat?
I guess you got it right if you want to heat ALL air coming into the carburator. However, one would need much less power heating the carburator rather than all incoming air, since much smaller amount of air is in contact with the walls of the carburator. In other words, you have to heat only that air which is in contact with the walls of the carburator. In most of car engines heating of the carburator by heat conduction from the engine block is sufficient to prevent icing. Unfortunately, most of aviation engines have carburators away from the engine block and in addition there are these monstrous manifolds there. Neither of them have heat connections with the engine block. The large manifold of aviation engine would probably require some heating too. Jerzy Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > >> I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my >>Bing carb using Nichrome wire. I anticiapte that I would need to heat >>the carb body up about 50F over amibent. I am still experimenting with >>carb temps without heat, but theory claims it is possible to experinece >>up to 80F temp loss due to vaporization of the fuel. I know little to >>nothing about what I need to know, I just have a basic idea. I thought >>to wrap the wire around the bing carb body to keep it warm at all times >>without heating the intake air. How can I figure out: 1. What diameter >>of wire to use, 2. what length of wire to use, 3. how to calculate the >>wire temp given the use of a standard 12V system (13.5?) and, 4. can I >>use some sort of variable input to regulate the heat output so to keep >>the carbs at a constant temp throughout the extremes in OAT? >> >> > > this has been considered before . . . it was about 10 years ago > that I had some discussions with some builders on Compuserve's > avsig forum about electric carb heat. > > Problem is that you've got a LOT of cold air coming into the > carb to run the engine. Let's assume a 100 cu" engine running > 5000 rpm. If it's a 4-cycle, it sucks in about 100 cu" of cold > air every two revolutions or 2500 x 100 cu"/minute. Density of > air at sea level is about 1/800th that of water. Water and air > have the same specific heat so you're needing to put the same > temperature rise on 313 cu" of water/minute as 250,000 cu" > of air/minute. To overcome additional cooling due to vaporization > of fuel, I think I've heard a number of 40 degrees F tossed > around. Okay cu" of water weighs .036 lb so 313 cu" weighs > about 11 pounds. 40 degrees F rise on 11 pounds of water > takes 440 BTU of heat/minute. 440 BTU per minute works out to > 26400 BTU per hour. 1 watt is 3.4 BTU per hour. So 26,400/3.4 > suggests your heater needs to good for about 7700 watts. > If you have a 2 cycle engine, the volume of air doubles > and so does the necessary power. > > These numbers seem in line with the kind of heat one might > expect off a heater muff of an 80 hp piston engine . . . > about 7 hair driers worth. Yub, one hair drier at 1000W > is pretty whimpy heat for a cold cabin . . . been there, > tried that. 7,000 watts doesn't seem unreasonable. > > That's about 550 amps of your 14 volt system. That's the > sledge hammer approach to carb heat . . . warm ALL the > incoming air such that carb ice is not only unable to > form but can be shed after substantial ice has already > formed. It's worked well on lots of airplanes since > the early 1940's > > If one could concentrate the heat at places were ice > collects, there might be a more efficient way to use > less energy . . . but with nothing BETTER to do with > gobs of waste heat going out the exhaust stacks, the > heater muff was hard to beat for economical to operate > and easy to fabricate and maintain. > > Eric, Dave, did I do that analysis right? In any case, > I think you're going to find that it takes a whole > lot more electric heat that you have available to do > an adequate job of de-icing a carburetor. > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave & Wendy Grosvenor" <dwg(at)iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Carb heat?
Date: Dec 01, 2003
What engine have you got. If it's a Rotax, try water heating - it works. Dave > I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my > Bing carb using Nichrome wire. I anticiapte that I would need to heat > the carb body up about 50F over amibent. I am still experimenting with > carb temps without heat, but theory claims it is possible to experinece > up to 80F temp loss due to vaporization of the fuel. I know little to > nothing about what I need to know, I just have a basic idea. I thought > to wrap the wire around the bing carb body to keep it warm at all times > without heating the intake air. How can I figure out: 1. What diameter > of wire to use, 2. what length of wire to use, 3. how to calculate the > wire temp given the use of a standard 12V system (13.5?) and, 4. can I > use some sort of variable input to regulate the heat output so to keep > the carbs at a constant temp throughout the extremes in OAT? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: annunciator drawings & photos
From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
Date: Dec 01, 2003
I have posted Mark Phillips' annunciator drawings & photos on a web server for him so they can be easily gotten by all. The filename portion of this URL is case sensitive so either click it or copy and paste it to your browser's window. <http://eucleides.com/AnnunciatorRear.zip> The contents of the zip file created by Mark are: Archive: AnnunciatorRear.zip Length Date Time Name -------- ---- ---- ---- 161000 09-17-03 14:53 (6)a Annunciator & LVWM.dwg 163816 11-28-03 07:51 (6)b Annunciator & LVWM.dwg 176050 07-14-03 09:17 AnnunciatorFront.jpg 178493 07-14-03 09:07 AnnunciatorRear.jpg -------- ------- 679359 4 files Paul Franz -- PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE (425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005 (425)641-1773 fax | GnuPG Public Key - <http://eucleides.com/pgpkey.asc> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Subject: Re: annunciator drawings & photos
In a message dated 12/1/2003 8:31:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, paul(at)eucleides.com writes: I have posted Mark Phillips' annunciator drawings & photos on a web server for him so they can be easily gotten by all. Paul, This is a slick design but I object to the wire count (even though the wires could be very small gauge). I have envisioned but not yet built a sending unit that is simply a linear pot driven by a lever suspended by a couple of small coil springs. --Only two wires required to drive an LED display with a V/D converter. John P. Marzluf Columbus, Ohio Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: circuit breakers
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Hi Bob- Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you, but I've been gone a lot. To clarify my situation, I'm building an all electric RV-8 w/ aft batteries and SD-8. Natch, the fuse blocks will be amidships. My circuitry will be mostly fused but with a small number of cb's, notably tied into alt OV protection. If the automotive ATC style CB's are of appropriate reliability they would significantly reduce the complexity and increase the neatness of the installation. Thanks to the folks that have already responded; all input is welcomed! Glen Matejcek ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Compass Advice
Date: Dec 01, 2003
>In a message dated 11/30/03 7:38:13 PM Central Standard Time, >emjones(at)charter.net writes: >Compact and discreet, this "active antenna" houses a complete GPS receiver >providing position, altitude, speed, course, satellite orbit information and >reception signal levels at an update rate of 1 second. >I'll bet the "active antenna + receiver" costs more than >a GPS-310 + adapter cable. Further, the active antenna >can't be removed from the airplane and used independently >on internal batteries and back-lighted display. >I'll suggest the GPS310 is better value. > Bob . . . Yeh but.....The NON-active GPS antennas can tell the direction and elevation of all satellites. BUT the orientation of the airplane (such as upside down) can't be determined. That's why this antenna must be used---because it knows which way it's pointed in addition to where the satellites are. I think were on the edge of an aircraft instrument revolution. But maybe I'm out of my field here......... >>Anybody know why it is not available in North America? Bob---They don't want ME to have one so the rest of you have to be punished too. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nebr RV-8" <nebrrv8(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Bob, wiring of headphone jacks for Flightcom 403D
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Jim Muegge Bob, Quick question, I am installing a Flightcom 403D in my RV-8 and am wiring the headphone jacks. Flightcom shows the jack grounded at the jack. Do I need to run shielded cable for the audio out to the jack? If so which end do I terminate the shield? Also going to install a small jack for audio in for a CD player. Does this jack also need it's ground isolated? Thanks for the help. You do a great job. Jim Muegge RV-8 wiring it up ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Subject: Re: annunciator drawings & photos
Howdy A-list- As seen in a recent post (see below), Paul Franz has graciously stored the drawings and photos that some of y'all requested about the annunciator I built. Here's the link: http://eucleides.com/AnnunciatorRear.zip The drawings were generated with AutoCAD R14. The one labeled 6a is the circuit and associated hardware while 6b shows the way the components are laid out on the board, and a couple of masks for the assembly. The scale is wrong on the masks, but if anyone really wants to try one of these, I have a more accurate one that I could send, if interested. As a brief historical note, I was originally going to make one of these using incandescents with a push-to-test function, which added quite a bit of complexity. After some discussions at Bob's seminar this past February and here on the A-list, I opted to try the LED modules, which Bob pointed out rarely fail and typically provide sufficient verification of proper operation at power-up/engine start time. As configured, only the fuel low modules don't normally come on at start (unless ya need gas!), but they back up other gauges, so PTT is not critical. Note that the LVWM is separate from the main board as it supplies its own circuit requirements. If anyone sees any errors or has questions or suggestions for improvement, please let me know! E-mail direct to: fiveonepw(at)aol.com Mark In a message dated 12/1/03 7:31:06 AM Central Standard Time, paul(at)eucleides.com writes: > I have posted Mark Phillips' annunciator drawings &photos on a web > server for him so they can be easily gotten by all. The filename portion > of this URL is case sensitive so either click it or copy and paste it to > your browser's window. > > <http://eucleides.com/AnnunciatorRear.zip> > > The contents of the zip file created by Mark are: > > Archive: AnnunciatorRear.zip > Length Date Time Name > -------- ---- ---- ---- > 161000 09-17-03 14:53 (6)a Annunciator &LVWM.dwg > 163816 11-28-03 07:51 (6)b Annunciator &LVWM.dwg > 176050 07-14-03 09:17 AnnunciatorFront.jpg > 178493 07-14-03 09:07 AnnunciatorRear.jpg > -------- ------- > 679359 4 files > > Paul Franz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Electric Carb heat?
Date: Dec 01, 2003
>> I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my >> Bing carb using Nichrome wire. > your heater needs to good for about 7700 watts. > If you have a 2 cycle engine, the volume of air doubles > and so does the necessary power. I lost $5K on palladium futures in that Pons and Fleischman thing, so I know how tricky thermodynamics can be---but the reasonableness test suggests that putting 10.32 horsepower into heating a pot-metal carburetor would not only melt the ice, but maybe the carburetor too. I think the calculations err in the transfer efficiency. A venturi is not a very good refrigerator. The engineer would say---Hey! adding ANY heat to the carb will improve it's icing performance (and reduce it's fuel economy), and there's certainly SOME limit where even the best technique will not be enough. So what's the worry? My own approach would be with PTC heaters (Google search "PTC heater"). They are automatic and the current through them can tell you exactly what's happening. Automobiles use zillions of them to defrost rear view mirrors. You specify these to keep the heat at --let's say-- above 10 degrees C. You won't ever feel them warm up but there won't be any ice! Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: annunciator drawings & photos
I found out Advanced Graphics Technologies ( http://www.aircraftsimulators.com/F16caution.html ) will fabricate a custom annunciator panel for you from laser-cut acrylic. They make elaborate flight simulator panels for F-16s, FA-18s, B-777s, and many other aircraft. This is a pretty slick way to get a professional looking back-lit switch panel or annunciator panel that looks a whole lot better than press-on lettering. (Or you can just go ahead and equip your homebuilt with a complete F-16 cockpit!) Dave Morris > > >I have posted Mark Phillips' annunciator drawings & photos on a web >server for him so they can be easily gotten by all. The filename portion >of this URL is case sensitive so either click it or copy and paste it to >your browser's window. > ><http://eucleides.com/AnnunciatorRear.zip> > >The contents of the zip file created by Mark are: > >Archive: AnnunciatorRear.zip > Length Date Time Name > -------- ---- ---- ---- > 161000 09-17-03 14:53 (6)a Annunciator & LVWM.dwg > 163816 11-28-03 07:51 (6)b Annunciator & LVWM.dwg > 176050 07-14-03 09:17 AnnunciatorFront.jpg > 178493 07-14-03 09:07 AnnunciatorRear.jpg > -------- ------- > 679359 4 files > >Paul Franz > >-- > PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE > (425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005 > (425)641-1773 fax | > GnuPG Public Key - <http://eucleides.com/pgpkey.asc> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Paul Wilson <pwilson(at)climber.org>
Subject: Re: Electric Carb heat?
Another thought is to use hot fluid at the air intake to heat the air. For an air cooled engine use hot oil and for a water cooled engine use the coolant. The one I saw was on a Rotax and consisted of and aluminum plate (about ~1/2" thick) mated to the carb inlet with coolant holes drilled so the water flowed in a square pattern to heat the plate. The air is heated by the plate. The hole in the plate was the same as the carb inlet. The guy hat it instrumented and said it heated the air just fine. The guy has a manual valve control for the coolant flow. Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ted Lemen" <tedlem(at)ecentral.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 11/30/03
Date: Dec 01, 2003
----- Original Message ----- From: "AeroElectric-List Digest Server" Subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 11/30/03 > * > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ > > > From: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314(at)earthlink.net> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: trigger PTT. > > > Bob: > I have a couple of stick grips which I can carve to hold whatever > PTT switch I want. I'd like a trigger type switch with a weak spring > positioned under my index finger. I could build something out of a > plunger+spring+microswitch, I guess, but are you aware of any off the > shelf trigger style momentary contact switches? I haven't been able to > find any. > > Thanks, > > -- > Tom Sargent > RV-6A > > > Whats wrong with a simple momentary pushbutton. I use one that I got from radio shack for probably less than $1.00 If you are referring to a clicker switch, I don't think you need one. Ted Lemen> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Subject: Electric Carb heat?
Date: Dec 01, 2003
It does not change your conclusion but the specific heat of air at any combination of temperature and pressure likely to be encountered in an airplane is 0.24 cal/gm deg C vs. specific heat of water under similar conditions of 1.0. Best regards, Rob Housman Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Carb heat? > I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my > Bing carb using Nichrome wire. I anticiapte that I would need to heat > the carb body up about 50F over amibent. I am still experimenting with > carb temps without heat, but theory claims it is possible to experinece > up to 80F temp loss due to vaporization of the fuel. I know little to > nothing about what I need to know, I just have a basic idea. I thought > to wrap the wire around the bing carb body to keep it warm at all times > without heating the intake air. How can I figure out: 1. What diameter > of wire to use, 2. what length of wire to use, 3. how to calculate the > wire temp given the use of a standard 12V system (13.5?) and, 4. can I > use some sort of variable input to regulate the heat output so to keep > the carbs at a constant temp throughout the extremes in OAT? this has been considered before . . . it was about 10 years ago that I had some discussions with some builders on Compuserve's avsig forum about electric carb heat. Problem is that you've got a LOT of cold air coming into the carb to run the engine. Let's assume a 100 cu" engine running 5000 rpm. If it's a 4-cycle, it sucks in about 100 cu" of cold air every two revolutions or 2500 x 100 cu"/minute. Density of air at sea level is about 1/800th that of water. Water and air have the same specific heat so you're needing to put the same temperature rise on 313 cu" of water/minute as 250,000 cu" of air/minute. To overcome additional cooling due to vaporization of fuel, I think I've heard a number of 40 degrees F tossed around. Okay cu" of water weighs .036 lb so 313 cu" weighs about 11 pounds. 40 degrees F rise on 11 pounds of water takes 440 BTU of heat/minute. 440 BTU per minute works out to 26400 BTU per hour. 1 watt is 3.4 BTU per hour. So 26,400/3.4 suggests your heater needs to good for about 7700 watts. If you have a 2 cycle engine, the volume of air doubles and so does the necessary power. These numbers seem in line with the kind of heat one might expect off a heater muff of an 80 hp piston engine . . . about 7 hair driers worth. Yub, one hair drier at 1000W is pretty whimpy heat for a cold cabin . . . been there, tried that. 7,000 watts doesn't seem unreasonable. That's about 550 amps of your 14 volt system. That's the sledge hammer approach to carb heat . . . warm ALL the incoming air such that carb ice is not only unable to form but can be shed after substantial ice has already formed. It's worked well on lots of airplanes since the early 1940's If one could concentrate the heat at places were ice collects, there might be a more efficient way to use less energy . . . but with nothing BETTER to do with gobs of waste heat going out the exhaust stacks, the heater muff was hard to beat for economical to operate and easy to fabricate and maintain. Eric, Dave, did I do that analysis right? In any case, I think you're going to find that it takes a whole lot more electric heat that you have available to do an adequate job of de-icing a carburetor. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: trigger PTT.
Pick up a flight sim joystick for about $30. Even if you don't use the whole grip, you can remove the trigger and the microswitch and the hinge mechanism that hooks the two together. Dave Morris > > >Bob: > I have a couple of stick grips which I can carve to hold whatever >PTT switch I want. I'd like a trigger type switch with a weak spring >positioned under my index finger. I could build something out of a >plunger+spring+microswitch, I guess, but are you aware of any off the >shelf trigger style momentary contact switches? I haven't been able to >find any. > >Thanks, > >-- >Tom Sargent >RV-6A > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: trigger PTT.
Yeah...I went that route. I pulled the stick apart intending to liberate the switches, but found they were very small and I didn't want to take the risk of overloading them with the kinds of power I was planning to stick across them. The switches in the commercial sticks expect small signal-type mAmp currents, not the larger control currents we would use when switching trim motors, say. But....I used the stick shape as a model to carve custom sticks from a mahogany block. The blocks turned out nicely, but I still needed micro switches to install in my home grown stick. Even the top hat switch, when bought separately, runs $40+, without the other switches, plus I still had the problem of installing them in wood. So after much trying, I finally bit the bullet and bought the Infinity stick. Around $170 list, and not as sexy looking as my polished mahogany beauties, but I got everything I wanted. Could have saved a lot of hassle too. Neil At 11:51 AM 12/1/03, you wrote: > >Pick up a flight sim joystick for about $30. Even if you don't use the >whole grip, you can remove the trigger and the microswitch and the hinge >mechanism that hooks the two together. > >Dave Morris > > > > > > > > >Bob: > > I have a couple of stick grips which I can carve to hold whatever > >PTT switch I want. I'd like a trigger type switch with a weak spring > >positioned under my index finger. I could build something out of a > >plunger+spring+microswitch, I guess, but are you aware of any off the > >shelf trigger style momentary contact switches? I haven't been able to > >find any. > > > >Thanks, > > > >-- > >Tom Sargent > >RV-6A > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Milner" <tldrgred(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Snap noise when strobes fire
Date: Dec 01, 2003
I have wing tip strobes on my RV-4 and my Whelan power supply is in rear baggage compartment. Normally have a whooping sound and was instructed to try separate battery at the strobe power supply which eliminates the whooping sound. Now there is a loud snap in the headset when the strobes fire. Any clues? Greg Milner RV-4 79KM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Subject: Re: annunciator drawings & photos
In a message dated 12/1/03 7:58:26 AM Central Standard Time, KITFOXZ(at)aol.com writes: > This is a slick design but I object to the wire count (even though the > wires could be very small gauge). I have envisioned but not yet built a > sending unit that is simply a linear pot driven by a lever suspended by a > couple of > small coil springs. --Only two wires required to drive an LED display with > a > V/D converter. Hi John! Saw your A-list post and thought I'd say howdy & request some tech help! (Yeah, I object to the wire count too, but they're all discreet signals- I'm just too unsophisticated to handle electronical stuff, dontchaknow!!!!) Since you have the drawing, could I beg ya to take a look at the way I have the Altronix 6062 timers connected? (top of drawing 6a) I could swear this is the same as the sample you sent me way back when. I am at work right now so can't check them for exactly how they currently function, but they seem to behave opposite the intended way. I pulled up the data sheet on the timers and it seems I need to cut a jumper on the board to disable the start-up time (or something- sheet is at home too!) Does anything particularly "wrong" jump out at you? Appreciate any assistance & thanks again for everything! Airplane should be flying by years end. From The PossumWorks - Mark Phillips ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Subject: Electric Carb heat?
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
I couldn't find the original sender of this message. I even searched the archive. I hope this gets to him. Are you trying to avoid the purchase of the device listed here? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/carbheater.php Maybe bolt-on is the way to go. Matt- N34RD > <RobH@hyperion-ef.com> > > It does not change your conclusion but the specific heat of air at any > combination of temperature and pressure likely to be encountered in an > airplane is 0.24 cal/gm deg C vs. specific heat of water under similar > conditions of 1.0. > > Best regards, > > Rob Housman > Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 > Airframe complete > Irvine, CA > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert > L. Nuckolls, III > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Carb heat? > > > > >> I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my >> Bing carb using Nichrome wire. I anticiapte that I would need to heat >> the carb body up about 50F over amibent. I am still experimenting >> with carb temps without heat, but theory claims it is possible to >> experinece up to 80F temp loss due to vaporization of the fuel. I >> know little to nothing about what I need to know, I just have a basic >> idea. I thought to wrap the wire around the bing carb body to keep it >> warm at all times without heating the intake air. How can I figure >> out: 1. What diameter of wire to use, 2. what length of wire to use, >> 3. how to calculate the wire temp given the use of a standard 12V >> system (13.5?) and, 4. can I use some sort of variable input to >> regulate the heat output so to keep the carbs at a constant temp >> throughout the extremes in OAT? > > this has been considered before . . . it was about 10 years ago that > I had some discussions with some builders on Compuserve's > avsig forum about electric carb heat. > > Problem is that you've got a LOT of cold air coming into the snip > Eric, Dave, did I do that analysis right? In any case, > I think you're going to find that it takes a whole > lot more electric heat that you have available to do > an adequate job of de-icing a carburetor. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Electric Carb heat?
> >It does not change your conclusion but the specific heat of air at any >combination of temperature and pressure likely to be encountered in an >airplane is 0.24 cal/gm deg C vs. specific heat of water under similar >conditions of 1.0. > >Best regards, > >Rob Housman >Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 >Airframe complete >Irvine, CA Very good. Thanks for the heads-up. It's been many moons since I ran through that kind of analysis and was depending on too much data from memory. I recall now that it's aluminum and air that share a closely related specific heat, not water and air. Okay, with the learned assistance of Mr. Housman, we'll have to revise our brute-force electric carb heat down to 1750 watts or a paltry 160 amps from our 14 v system! More selective application of heat may deice the carb but may also move the icing risk to another part of the induction system. I had a VW minibus years ago that I converted from troublesome dual Solex carbs to a single two-barrel Carter that sat centered over the engine on a new manifold. It was a useful conversion 99.5% of the time. The car began behaving poorly on a trip back from Augusta one cold, wet night and finally refused to run at any speed several miles from home. Looked at the engine and found the carburetor and several inches of the intake manifold encrusted in about 1/2" of exterior ice. Pulled the air cleaner of found carburetor plugged so much that I couldn't see the throttle plates. After sitting for about 30 minutes, exterior ice fell off from residual engine heat. Got the car started and it ran badly to a service station where I got it pulled into a service bay. After 4-5 minutes in warmer air, all the ice was melted and water sucked through the engine. Drove on home with no further incident. Had the car for several years before and after that experience. Never again encountered conditions that produced such prodigious icing. This underscores the value of going to the icing tunnel to test pitot tubes, engine inlet heaters and leading edge deicing systems in as realistic a situation as possible. Just keeping ice out of the carb may not be enough and in some cases might make icing worse in places not previously identified as potential hazards. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Electric Carb heat?
> > > > >> I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my > >> Bing carb using Nichrome wire. > > > your heater needs to good for about 7700 watts. > > If you have a 2 cycle engine, the volume of air doubles > > and so does the necessary power. > >I lost $5K on palladium futures in that Pons and Fleischman thing, so I know >how tricky thermodynamics can be---but the reasonableness test suggests that >putting 10.32 horsepower into heating a pot-metal carburetor would not only >melt the ice, but maybe the carburetor too. I think the calculations err in >the transfer efficiency. Mr. Housman pointed out use of the wrong specific heat for air so indeed, power required for the same temperature rise would be 1/4th that calculated initially. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Electric Carb heat?
> >Another thought is to use hot fluid at the air intake to heat the air. For >an air cooled engine use hot oil and for a water cooled engine use the >coolant. The one I saw was on a Rotax and consisted of and aluminum plate >(about ~1/2" thick) mated to the carb inlet with coolant holes drilled so >the water flowed in a square pattern to heat the plate. The air is >heated by the plate. The hole in the plate was the same as the carb inlet. >The guy hat it instrumented and said it heated the air just fine. The guy >has a manual valve control for the coolant flow. >Paul I don't recall which car it was now, perhaps a chevy 6-cylinder of the 1965 era that had hot water hoses plumbed into passages of the intake manifold for carburetor warming. I also recall that a friend of mine in high school swapped out the carb on his GM V-8 with some super-whizzy design. He replaced a thick phenolic spacer under the carb with an aluminum one that was also an adapter for the new mounting hole pattern. He was plagued with poor performance issues in summer that turned out to be heat conduction from engine up to the carb prevented by the stock phenolic spacer block. Every new system idea needs to be boiled down to it's simple-idea constituents to make sure the value and requirement for each idea are known and understood. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Compass Advice
> > >I'll bet the "active antenna + receiver" costs more than > >a GPS-310 + adapter cable. Further, the active antenna > >can't be removed from the airplane and used independently > >on internal batteries and back-lighted display. > >I'll suggest the GPS310 is better value. > > Bob . . . > >Yeh but.....The NON-active GPS antennas can tell the direction and elevation >of all satellites. BUT the orientation of the airplane (such as upside down) >can't be determined. That's why this antenna must be used---because it knows >which way it's pointed in addition to where the satellites are. sure, but this was originally a question about compass backups. If I were to build an IFR machine today, I don't think I would include a DG as long as I had multiple GPS sources in addition to an electronic magnetic compass. >I think were on the edge of an aircraft instrument revolution. But maybe I'm >out of my field here......... Understand. So many new ideas, so little time . . . > >>Anybody know why it is not available in North America? > >Bob---They don't want ME to have one so the rest of you have to be punished >too. We've probably got friends over the pond who could acquire one for evaluation. What do they cost? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: william mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Electric Carb heat?
> >I couldn't find the original sender of this message. I even >searched the archive. I hope this gets to him. > >Are you trying to avoid the purchase of the device listed here? > >http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/carbheater.php > >Maybe bolt-on is the way to go. > >Matt- >N34RD Matt - It appears these are not available. No prices are shown and attempts to order them fail. I sent an email inquiry - will report back if they respond. Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Electric Carb heat?
> > > > >> I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my > >> Bing carb using Nichrome wire. > > >My own approach would be with PTC heaters (Google search "PTC heater"). They >are automatic and the current through them can tell you exactly what's >happening. Automobiles use zillions of them to defrost rear view mirrors. >You specify these to keep the heat at --let's say-- above 10 degrees C. You >won't ever feel them warm up but there won't be any ice! The Geo Tracker uses a PTC heater between the TBI and intake manifold. Maybe you could adapt this for your use. For a drawing of this system, including the PTC heater, see http://www.rlb.50megs.com/trkptc.html Mark S. Lancair ES Austin, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Subject: Battery Drain ? for Bob
Hi Bob. I have a question for you regarding a battery drain situation. What is the best way to determine a battery drain (besides the obvious), and the amount of drain? Thanks, Michael Valentine (Watsonville Seminar) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: annunciator drawings & photos
From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
Date: Dec 01, 2003
On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 05:57, KITFOXZ(at)aol.com wrote: > This is a slick design but I object to the wire count (even though the > wires could be very small gauge). I have envisioned but not yet built a > sending unit that is simply a linear pot driven by a lever suspended by a couple of > small coil springs. --Only two wires required to drive an LED display with a > V/D converter. > > John P. Marzluf > Columbus, Ohio > Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage) Well, John, I know nothing of the design. I just posted the zip file to my server and listed the contents. I haven't even seen the pictures or the drawings myself yet. Please direct your questions, critique and concerns to the author, Mark Phillips or to this forum. I did not intend to take any credit for the design or construction created by Mark as I did not contribute to it in any way. > > -- PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE (425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005 (425)641-1773 fax | GnuPG Public Key - <http://eucleides.com/pgpkey.asc> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: trigger PTT.
Aren't you going to drive the trim motors from a pair of relays? If so, your joystick switch current will be pretty small. I too am going to use an Infinity joystick and have been working on the wiring diagrams for the past few days. The 4-way trim switch is rated at 1A and the rest of the switches are all 6A. So unless you're planning to put a starter switch on the joystick and drive a big honking starter contactor, I think microswitches would have worked. The Infinity switches should be much more reliable and long-lasting than the el-cheapo joystick stuff. Dave Morris > >Yeah...I went that route. I pulled the stick apart intending to liberate >the switches, but found they were very small and I didn't want to take the >risk of overloading them with the kinds of power I was planning to stick >across them. The switches in the commercial sticks expect small signal-type >mAmp currents, not the larger control currents we would use when switching >trim motors, say. > >But....I used the stick shape as a model to carve custom sticks from a >mahogany block. The blocks turned out nicely, but I still needed micro >switches to install in my home grown stick. Even the top hat switch, when >bought separately, runs $40+, without the other switches, plus I still had >the problem of installing them in wood. > >So after much trying, I finally bit the bullet and bought the Infinity >stick. Around $170 list, and not as sexy looking as my polished mahogany >beauties, but I got everything I wanted. Could have saved a lot of hassle too. > >Neil > > >At 11:51 AM 12/1/03, you wrote: > > > >Pick up a flight sim joystick for about $30. Even if you don't use the > >whole grip, you can remove the trigger and the microswitch and the hinge > >mechanism that hooks the two together. > > > >Dave Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Bob: > > > I have a couple of stick grips which I can carve to hold whatever > > >PTT switch I want. I'd like a trigger type switch with a weak spring > > >positioned under my index finger. I could build something out of a > > >plunger+spring+microswitch, I guess, but are you aware of any off the > > >shelf trigger style momentary contact switches? I haven't been able to > > >find any. > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >-- > > >Tom Sargent > > >RV-6A > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca>
Subject:
I am planning to purchase one of those 12 volt "power packs" - aka "auto boosters" - as a cost effective source for an RG battery for a homebuilt RV-3. Are there any pointers in what to look for when buying same? I realize that most of the advertising claims about cranking amps and such will tend to be a bit flaky but are there any useful guides other than picking up the box and guessing the weight of the battery inside? Saw an AC Delco unit to day mentioning it contained a 17 amp hr battery. Suitable for my intended use? I am writing from Canada so any comment from someone familiar with the Canadian Tire line of these devices would be especially helpful. Jim Oke Winnipeg, MB ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: RG Battery Pack Purchase
I am planning to purchase one of those 12 volt "power packs" - aka "auto boosters" - as a cost effective source for an RG battery for a homebuilt RV-3. Are there any pointers in what to look for when buying same? I realize that most of the advertising claims about cranking amps and such will tend to be a bit flaky but are there any useful guides other than picking up the box and guessing the weight of the battery inside? Saw an AC Delco unit to day mentioning it contained a 17 amp hr battery. Suitable for my intended use? I am writing from Canada so any comment from someone familiar with the Canadian Tire line of these devices would be especially helpful. Jim Oke Winnipeg, MB ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
> >Hi Bob. > >I have a question for you regarding a battery drain situation. > > What is the best way to determine a battery drain (besides the obvious), > and >the amount of drain? > >Thanks, Michael Valentine > >(Watsonville Seminar) You can put an ammeter in series with the battery and measure the current required by each and/or total suite of powered devices. What question are you trying to answer? E-bus loads? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
Is there a way to measure the amperage without disconnecting the battery cable? Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Dual voltage electrical system
Date: Dec 01, 2003
The Astron N2412-12 DC-DC converter drains the 12V battery on it's output at the rate of about 23mA when the input is disconnected. Dave Swartzendruber > > Dave, do you know how this critter will behave with a battery > across the output? Is there a need to disconnect the battery > from the converter if it's not powered up? I've been scratching > on a Z-figure example of how this could be done and my sense is > that a battery disconnect relay would be needed to float the > battery completely free when the airplane is parked. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Subject: Re: annunciator drawings & photos
In a message dated 12/1/2003 12:17:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Fiveonepw(at)aol.com writes: Since you have the drawing, could I beg ya to take a look at the way I have the Altronix 6062 timers connected? (top of drawing 6a) I could swear this is the same as the sample you sent me way back when. I am at work right now so can't check them for exactly how they currently function, but they seem to behave opposite the intended way. I pulled up the data sheet on the timers and it seems I need to cut a jumper on the board to disable the start-up time (or something- sheet is at home too!) Does anything particularly "wrong" jump out at you? Appreciate any assistance & thanks again for everything! Airplane should be flying by years end. Hello Mark, I spoke too soon! I mistakenly thought your annunciator was for stab trim position annunciation only. I can't open your drawings because I don't have a compatible Cad program on my home machine. Saw the photos and all the wires and then I assumed they all went to a multi switch (mag reed switches) set up at your trim motor. If you can suggest a source to download a free viewer let me know. Did I send you a data sheet on the 6062's? If not, send me a FAX number... John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Subject: Re: annunciator drawings & photos
In a message dated 12/1/2003 2:54:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul(at)eucleides.com writes: Well, John, I know nothing of the design. I just posted the zip file to my server and listed the contents. I haven't even seen the pictures or the drawings myself yet. Paul, I know that. I was just making comment. I spoke too soon as it turns out seeing only the pictures. I'll have to look at the drawings when I can open them. John ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
From: John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Hi Dave - I looked at your web site and have a comment on the annunciator panel. I really like the Honeywell stuff, but there are 2 problems with it. One is that they apparently do not stock all of the components and their suppliers/dealers/distributors have to order them special for someone who wants them. Secondly, and obviously, they are very expensive. Have I missed something in my research? If you know of a supplier/distributor who has all of the pieces in stock, please send me an email with the particulars. Also, the F-16 panel: What hardware comes with it? I could not find a listing to determine how difficult it would be to install or adapt. Many thanks, John wrote: > The poor man's EFIS is at www.MyGlassCockpit.com. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
> >Is there a way to measure the amperage without disconnecting the battery >cable? There are hall-effect devices that can measure current in a wire without breaking into the wire. Under what situations are you wanting to measure battery current? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: RG Battery Pack Purchase
> >I am planning to purchase one of those 12 volt "power packs" - aka "auto >boosters" - as a cost effective source for an RG battery for a homebuilt RV-3. > >Are there any pointers in what to look for when buying same? I realize >that most of the advertising claims about cranking amps and such will tend >to be a bit flaky but are there any useful guides other than picking up >the box and guessing the weight of the battery inside? > >Saw an AC Delco unit to day mentioning it contained a 17 amp hr battery. >Suitable for my intended use? > >I am writing from Canada so any comment from someone familiar with the >Canadian Tire line of these devices would be especially helpful. These products generally retail in US for about $45-50. I'm thinking you can buy a Panasonic 17 a.h. battery from lots of folk on the Internet for about the same amount. I'd buy a "booster" from a hardware store to acquire a "get home" battery but if you have the time to order a name brand battery from a reputable supplier for the same dollars, why not? Check out http://dkc3.digikey.com/pdf/T033/1049.pdf The Panasonic LC-RD1217P sells for $36.00 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Jim Corner <jcorner(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: RG Battery Pack Purchase
Jim I just installed one of these Canadian Tire batteries in my Kitfox. The advertised 400 Cranking amp unit is an 18 amp hour battery made in China. It appears to have fairly robust terminals for bolt on connection and so far has performed admirably in the cold weather here in Calgary. In fact far superior to my previous lead acid type battery. Jim Corner ------- I am planning to purchase one of those 12 volt "power packs" - aka "auto boosters" - as a cost effective source for an RG battery for a homebuilt RV-3. Are there any pointers in what to look for when buying same? I realize that most of the advertising claims about cranking amps and such will tend to be a bit flaky but are there any useful guides other than picking up the box and guessing the weight of the battery inside? Saw an AC Delco unit to day mentioning it contained a 17 amp hr battery. Suitable for my intended use? I am writing from Canada so any comment from someone familiar with the Canadian Tire line of these devices would be especially helpful. Jim Oke Winnipeg, MB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
It is for an automotive situation where my vehicle will discharge during non operation. After only 8 days the battery is not able to start the car. The battery is about 18 months old. If I keep a trickle charge on it the car will start up without a problem. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Pitch Trim Motor Slow-down
Date: Dec 01, 2003
I would like to cut the speed of my pitch trim motor about in half. It's a 12V DC motor. I've been told that if I just put a resistor in series with the motor, it will slow down, but may burn out. Can someone tell me a better way of reducing the motor speed? Do I need to use a voltage regulator? Suggestions on exactly what? Details: This is an electric pitch trim motor supplied by the Glasair kit manufacturer. It drives a worm gear which free-wheels at each end of its throw. That gear drives a bellcrank connected through tension springs to the elevator bellcrank. The circuit is protected by a 2A fuse. The motor markings are: Martin Systems Inc. Eatontown, NJ 9234C120-R5 73633 12V DC 01-27-96 Thanks. Jim Oberst ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: RG Battery Pack Purchase
I just bought that battery myself. It was interesting to read the fine print and look at the graphs of the batteries in that general amp-hour range. For anyone who hasn't done that yet, it may come as a bit of a shock that "17 AH" does not mean you can suck 17 amps of current for an hour while you find an airport. Typically the rating is based on 20 hours. If you intend to drain current from the battery for an hour, you need to limit yourself to about 1/2 the rated AH rating (about 8 amps in this case). Dave Morris > > > > These products generally retail in US for about $45-50. I'm thinking you > can buy a Panasonic 17 a.h. battery from lots of folk on the > Internet for about the same amount. > > Check out > http://dkc3.digikey.com/pdf/T033/1049.pdf > The Panasonic LC-RD1217P sells for $36.00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Borne" <caborne3(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Pitch Trim Motor Slow-down
Date: Dec 01, 2003
Jim, Matronics (our list sponsor) has an adjustable speed governor (Mk III) available for just that. I've got them installed for pitch and roll trim servos. Check out matronics.com Chuck Borne ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitch Trim Motor Slow-down <joberst@cox-internet.com> > > I would like to cut the speed of my pitch trim motor about in half. It's a > 12V DC motor. I've been told that if I just put a resistor in series with > the motor, it will slow down, but may burn out. Can someone tell me a > better way of reducing the motor speed? Do I need to use a voltage > regulator? Suggestions on exactly what? > > Details: This is an electric pitch trim motor supplied by the Glasair kit > manufacturer. It drives a worm gear which free-wheels at each end of its > throw. That gear drives a bellcrank connected through tension springs to > the elevator bellcrank. The circuit is protected by a 2A fuse. The motor > markings are: > > Martin Systems Inc. > Eatontown, NJ > 9234C120-R5 > 73633 > 12V DC > 01-27-96 > > Thanks. > > Jim Oberst > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
You can get the AircraftSimulators/AGT annunciator panels and switch panels either with or without hardware (see http://www.aircraftsimulators.com/faq.html) I'm not pushing either the Honeywell lights or the AGT panels. I just want everybody to know that the flight sim community has got some pretty cool stuff available out there. AGT quoted me an annunciator panel with 16 warning lights with an engraved acrylic plate and all LEDs mounted for $95. Backlit acrylic switch panels about 3"x8" loaded with switches for about $120 to $160 depending on design. Dave Morris > > >Hi Dave - > >I looked at your web site and have a comment on the annunciator panel. I >really like the Honeywell stuff, but there are 2 problems with it. One is >that they apparently do not stock all of the components and their >suppliers/dealers/distributors have to order them special for someone who >wants them. Secondly, and obviously, they are very expensive. > >Have I missed something in my research? If you know of a >supplier/distributor who has all of the pieces in stock, please send me an >email with the particulars. > >Also, the F-16 panel: What hardware comes with it? I could not find a >listing to determine how difficult it would be to install or adapt. > >Many thanks, > >John > > >wrote: > > > The poor man's EFIS is at www.MyGlassCockpit.com. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
> >It is for an automotive situation where my vehicle will discharge during non >operation. After only 8 days the battery is not able to start the car. The >battery is about 18 months old. If I keep a trickle charge on it the car will >start up without a problem. > > >Michael Okay, getting in series with the battery to measure the drain current is only academic . . . you already KNOW there is some current and that it's too much to allow reasonable storage intervals. Putting an ammeter in series with the battery MAY help you find out what the drain is . . . but it's a long shot. First, find out how much the current draw is . . . this will give you some clues. Suppose it's about .2A . . . Hmmmm . . . glove box lamps draw this kind of current. Are all your lamps REALLY going dark when the door is closed? Try pulling fuses while watching the ammeter. Does pulling any one fuse make the drain go away? There's a limited amount of stuff you can do without having access to the details of the system wiring and power distribution. It may be that some feature of your electronically controlled engine is stuck . . . like the driver to a small solenoid valve somewhere in the bowls of the pollution control system. The possibilities are many. You may have to seek help from a professional who is more informed as to details of the car's systems. This same individual may also KNOW what the problem is if they've seen it happen a few dozen times on other people's cars. If you're interested in the challenge, certainly explore the obvious options. Personally, I'd trundle the critter off to my local service shop. I like challenges but this one has the potential for spending a lot of time to learn very little. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: RG Battery Pack Purchase
> >I just bought that battery myself. It was interesting to read the fine >print and look at the graphs of the batteries in that general amp-hour >range. For anyone who hasn't done that yet, it may come as a bit of a >shock that "17 AH" does not mean you can suck 17 amps of current for an >hour while you find an airport. Typically the rating is based on 20 >hours. If you intend to drain current from the battery for an hour, you >need to limit yourself to about 1/2 the rated AH rating (about 8 amps in >this case). Exactly. Batteries have a characteristic called internal impedance. It's a parasitic resistance that throws away energy in the form of heat in response to load on the battery in accordance with the dictates of Watts = Amps x Volts and Volts = Amps x Ohms. Substituting the second equation into the first for volts we get Watts = Amps x Amps x Ohms or Watts = Amps(Squared) x Ohms. This shows that doubling the load on your battery makes for a 4x increase in energy tossed off as heat by internal impedance. All batteries are characterized by their manufacturers. Download http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/lc-rd1217p.pdf on the Panasonic 17 a.h. battery. Run up the 4 hour line to 10.5 volts and you can see that some load between 1.7 and 4.5 amps can be supported for this period of time. It would be nice if they had plotted in more data but suffice it to say, there's a REASON that I hound folks for keeping the e-bus loads LOW. If you truly cannot get the e-bus loads down on the order of 3A then a bigger battery or second alternator should be considered. That 4-pound SD-8 installation looks pretty good . . . no? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Compass Advice
Is the Magellan antenna GPS package similar to Tru-Traks? This from their faq What if I don't have a GPS? We sell a GPS-35 for $175, which is an antenna/receiver in one unit that has no display, but will allow the AP to function in its basic track mode. The GPS-35 is roughly the size of a computer mouse and is usually mounted on the glareshield. hal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
Date: Dec 02, 2003
Consider the alternator. Most far east imports have alternators with internal regulators that are connected internally to the "B" lead. The Subaru alternators I have experience with draw 70-80 ma from the battery and the local auto dealer as well as the local auto stores say run the car at least once a week and or get a smart charger (NOT a trickle charger) for the battery. I replaced an old Motorola alternator with a used Subaru on my old truck and discovered the battery was being discharged(took a while to get around to disconnecting the alternator from the system to find the problem). BTW a fully discharged wet cell auto battery will not stand this treatment long before failure. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Drain ? for Bob > > > > >It is for an automotive situation where my vehicle will discharge during non > >operation. After only 8 days the battery is not able to start the car. The > >battery is about 18 months old. If I keep a trickle charge on it the car will > >start up without a problem. > > > > > >Michael > > Okay, getting in series with the battery to measure the drain > current is only academic . . . you already KNOW there is some > current and that it's too much to allow reasonable storage > intervals. > > Putting an ammeter in series with the battery MAY help you > find out what the drain is . . . but it's a long shot. First, > find out how much the current draw is . . . this will give you > some clues. Suppose it's about .2A . . . Hmmmm . . . glove box > lamps draw this kind of current. Are all your lamps REALLY going > dark when the door is closed? Try pulling fuses while watching > the ammeter. Does pulling any one fuse make the drain go away? > There's a limited amount of stuff you can do without having > access to the details of the system wiring and power distribution. > It may be that some feature of your electronically controlled > engine is stuck . . . like the driver to a small solenoid valve > somewhere in the bowls of the pollution control system. The > possibilities are many. You may have to seek help from a > professional who is more informed as to details of the > car's systems. This same individual may also KNOW what the > problem is if they've seen it happen a few dozen times on > other people's cars. > > If you're interested in the challenge, certainly explore > the obvious options. Personally, I'd trundle the critter off > to my local service shop. I like challenges but this one > has the potential for spending a lot of time to learn very > little. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 02, 2003
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
Thanks Bob for your help. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 02, 2003
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
In a message dated 12/2/2003 8:30:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, paulm(at)olypen.com writes: BTW a fully discharged wet cell auto battery will not stand this treatment long before failure. What treatment are you talking about? Do you mean the occasional discharging of the battery until it drops below 10.5 volts several times a year? This electrical drain is on a Chevy S-10 1994 P/U 4WD. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: Walter Duschek <walter(at)duschek.org>
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
Robert L. Nuckolls, III schrieb: > > > >> >>It is for an automotive situation where my vehicle will discharge during non >>operation. After only 8 days the battery is not able to start the car. The >>battery is about 18 months old. If I keep a trickle charge on it the car will >>start up without a problem. >> >> >>Michael >> >> > > Okay, getting in series with the battery to measure the drain > current is only academic . . . you already KNOW there is some > current and that it's too much to allow reasonable storage > intervals. > > Putting an ammeter in series with the battery MAY help you > find out what the drain is . . . but it's a long shot. First, > find out how much the current draw is . . . this will give you > some clues. Suppose it's about .2A . . . Hmmmm . . . glove box > lamps draw this kind of current. Are all your lamps REALLY going > dark when the door is closed? Try pulling fuses while watching > the ammeter. Does pulling any one fuse make the drain go away? > There's a limited amount of stuff you can do without having > access to the details of the system wiring and power distribution. > It may be that some feature of your electronically controlled > engine is stuck . . . like the driver to a small solenoid valve > somewhere in the bowls of the pollution control system. The > possibilities are many. You may have to seek help from a > professional who is more informed as to details of the > car's systems. This same individual may also KNOW what the > problem is if they've seen it happen a few dozen times on > other people's cars. > > If you're interested in the challenge, certainly explore > the obvious options. Personally, I'd trundle the critter off > to my local service shop. I like challenges but this one > has the potential for spending a lot of time to learn very > little. > > Bob . . . > > >Good evening, > > might be that I can pinpoint a strong potential culprit: a *modern* car radio. I had several cases of batterie drainage due to a failing audio output amplifier! In modern radios, the set is not switched of anymore - as we were used by operating a switch (turn, press or toggle on/off). Nowadays, rather the audio input signal is inhibited to the front stages of the integrated preamplifier - instead of the total B+ being switched off. If the output amplifiere fails - hey presto, you have your batterie discharged. This behaviour was not confined to one specific make/modell. Pulling the fuse which protects the radio should quickly reveal the culprit. Perhaps this may help, Walter. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net>
Subject: Dual CDI necessity
Date: Dec 02, 2003
Can anyone help me with the advantages and disadvantages of installing dual CDI heads for IFR with the following equipment: (panel space is at a premium) RV7A with standard 6 pack (DG & no HSI). Garmin AT (formerly UPS) IFR stack with MX20 MFD, CNX80 nav/com/gps, SL30 nav/com, SL15 audio, GTX330 xpdr, Trutrak Digiflight II VSG autopoilot with horizontal & vertical GPS steering (also has its own internal gyros). The CNX80 has a built in switch to toggle the MD200-306 CDI between VOR & GPS. The CNX installation manual shows a sample system diagram with a CDI hooked to the CNX80 and also one hooked to the SL30. Note that the SL30 has its own built in CDI display, but without glideslope display. Years ago I flew IFR with dual VOR's but with today's sophisticated systems, I'm wondering if it's necessary. I have queried Garmin but no response yet. Thank you, Scott Diffenbaugh diff(at)foothill.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 02, 2003
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
Walter, thanks for the information, I'll try that. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
Date: Dec 02, 2003
Depends on how low the battery gets. However several mfgrs say permanent damage if open circuit voltage gets below around 11+v In my case with the truck setting idle for several weeks and the battery was below 6V (open circuit) and the second time it happened it was unwilling to take a charge. The wet cell tech battery design used for the common auto usage simply will not in general stand up to deep discharges. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: <ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Drain ? for Bob > > In a message dated 12/2/2003 8:30:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, > paulm(at)olypen.com writes: > BTW a > fully discharged wet cell auto battery will not stand this treatment long > before failure. > > What treatment are you talking about? Do you mean the occasional discharging > of the battery until it drops below 10.5 volts several times a year? This > electrical drain is on a Chevy S-10 1994 P/U 4WD. > > > Michael > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
> >In a message dated 12/2/2003 8:30:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, >paulm(at)olypen.com writes: >BTW a >fully discharged wet cell auto battery will not stand this treatment long >before failure. > >What treatment are you talking about? Do you mean the occasional discharging >of the battery until it drops below 10.5 volts several times a year? This >electrical drain is on a Chevy S-10 1994 P/U 4WD. Batteries have a service life based upon how many ampere-hours of energy are pumped in/out of the battery. On average, a lead acid battery will be down to 70-80% of capacity after 100 deep cycles assuming it's immediately recharged. Normal operation in a vehicle uses perhaps 2-3% of capacity to get an engine started and the battery spends 99.9+ percent of it's total life near full charge. Long periods of time at less than full charge and/or repeated deep discharge cycles with periods of storage at near-dead conditions will rapidly degrade the battery's ability to store energy. I had a brand new, 100 a.h. backup battery for my local server set unattended in the garage for about 4 months. It ran down in about 3 months and spent another month at near-dead. By the time I remembered it, the critter was beyond salvage. We enjoy VERY long lived car batteries because we don't expect them to be deep-discharge backups for alternators and they get topped off daily . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Bond studs are back
A visit to my local junk dealer yielded another quantity of bond studs that sold out about a couple of months ago. I left a phone number for him to call should he find any more. In any case, we can offer at least as many as we were able to acquire the first time around. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( A beginning of the end is marked by ) ( replacement of experience and common ) ( sense with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: D-sub wire size
Date: Dec 02, 2003
I need to know the proper wire gauge for my engine sensors that will be routed through D-sub connectors to my Blue Mountain EFIS/one. I know 24 gauge is too small and 18 gauge seems pretty big for the 9 pin solder connectors I have been practicing with. Will either 20 or 22 gauge work with the crimp connectors? Is one size better than the other. Thanks, Terry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net>
Subject: Dual CDI necessity
Scott: I have a Garmin 430 and UPS SL-30 and faced the same question you have for my Lancair ES. I chose to have a single CDI to save space for other instruments. In addition, I purchased the relay offered by Eric Jones, who monitors this list. The relay is a nice little unit that allows you to switch 18 wires (or is it 16, I forget) between radios so you can display information from either nav. I figured this would be useful when and if I use the SL-30 for an ILS or Localizer approach, or if I simply want the big picture on the number 2 nav. I'm not flying yet, but I'm quite comfortable with this decision. Dan O'Brien Lancair ES ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Sky-tec not cranking - Canard, Z14, Lyc IO-360
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" <wayne.r.blackler(at)boeing.com>
Hi Bob, Excuse me if you received this email twice. I have a starter cranking problem on my aircraft, and would very much appreciate your input. Test Article: Lycoming IO-360 (9.2:1) 195hp Long EZ wired with your Z-14 dual batt/dual alt power distrib system. The batteries are Odyssey PC-680 12V 16AH units, the alternators are SD-20 and B&C 40A. Ignition is dual Lightspeed. Starter is Skytec. Problem: I can barely (if at all) turn the prop with the starter. It's a stout engine with 9.2:1 pistons and 100WW mineral oil (for break-in), but I thought I'd at least get 1 blade through during crank!!! The engine is preheated The batteries are warm. Further info: My Ship Ground wires are individual 4AWG from batteries to the I.P. Ground bus, 2AWG from the I.P. Ground bus to the Firewall ground stud (brass) and bus (for elec fuel pump and ignitions), and a B&C braided cable to the block. All check OK. The Plan: 1. Check individual battery voltages while trying to crank. Check >10V, each. 2. Check the voltage at the starter (from input line to case ground cable) while trying to crank. What should I expect? 3. Check voltage input at the starter (solenoid) while cranking. What should I expect? 4. Check contactor voltages while cranking - a) Across Main, Aux and Crossfeed b) across Starter. What should I expect? 5. ?? In your experience, is there anything else I should be checking? Kind Regards, Wayne Blackler Seattle, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 02, 2003
Subject: Re: Battery Drain ? for Bob
The first thing I am going to do is determine how much drain and where it is coming from then make repairs. Thanks to both of you for the info. Michael ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> IO-360
Subject: Re: Sky-tec not cranking - Canard, Z14, Lyc
IO-360 IO-360 > > >Hi Bob, > >Excuse me if you received this email twice. > >I have a starter cranking problem on my aircraft, and would very much >appreciate your input. > >Test Article: Lycoming IO-360 (9.2:1) 195hp Long EZ wired with your Z-14 >dual batt/dual alt power distrib system. The batteries are Odyssey PC-680 >12V 16AH units, the alternators are SD-20 and B&C 40A. Ignition is dual >Lightspeed. Starter is Skytec. > >Problem: I can barely (if at all) turn the prop with the starter. It's a >stout engine with 9.2:1 pistons and 100WW mineral oil (for break-in), but >I thought I'd at least get 1 blade through during crank!!! The engine is >preheated The batteries are warm. > >Further info: My Ship Ground wires are individual 4AWG from batteries to >the I.P. Ground bus, 2AWG from the I.P. Ground bus to the Firewall ground >stud (brass) and bus (for elec fuel pump and ignitions), and a B&C braided >cable to the block. All check OK. > >The Plan: > >1. Check individual battery voltages while trying to crank. Check >10V, each. yup . . . with both batteries on during cranking, I'd expect no less than 10 volts. >2. Check the voltage at the starter (from input line to case ground cable) >while trying to crank. What should I expect? Hmmmm . . . with the long leads, 9+v is probably wishing . . . >3. Check voltage input at the starter (solenoid) while cranking. What >should I expect? Measure voltage from either battery(+) terminal to starter(+) while cranking . . . Same thing for starter(-) or crankcase to battery(-) . . . These two measurements will get your voltage drops in both power and return lines. If you have access to a clamp-on, DC ammeter, it would be useful to get a starter current draw too. >4. Check contactor voltages while cranking - a) Across Main, Aux and >Crossfeed b) across Starter. What should I expect? >5. ?? In your experience, is there anything else I should be checking? If the batteries are new, then either the starter is bad or there is too much voltage drop in wiring and switch-gear. Current draw will speak to starter issue, voltage drops as defined above will speak to wiring and switchgear issues. It's best to make these measurements with an analog instrument if you can find one. Digital readings jump around too much for accurate readings while cranking. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: D-sub wire size
> >I need to know the proper wire gauge for my engine sensors that will be >routed through D-sub connectors to my Blue Mountain EFIS/one. I know 24 >gauge is too small and 18 gauge seems pretty big for the 9 pin solder >connectors I have been practicing with. Will either 20 or 22 gauge work >with the crimp connectors? Is one size better than the other. D-subs will happily take 20AWG wire. If connections elsewhere will take 20AWG then that's my best recommendation. We try to avoid anything smaller than 20AWG under the cowl irrespective of current levels . . . just for mechanical robustness. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com>
Subject: Sky-tec not cranking - Canard, Z14, Lyc IO-360
Date: Dec 02, 2003
I know this was meant for Bob ***AND*** that this is a simplistic question, but .... Can you turn the engine by hand with and without plugs installed?? Just curious. James > Problem: I can barely (if at all) turn the prop with the starter. > It's a stout engine with 9.2:1 pistons and 100WW mineral oil (for > break-in), but I thought I'd at least get 1 blade through during > crank!!! The engine is preheated The batteries are warm. > > Further info: My Ship Ground wires are individual 4AWG from > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: RG Battery Pack Purchase
Bob, as an alternative to a "bigger battery", what about the idea of having a second battery wired directly in parallel with the main battery. Then use your technique of annual replacement of second battery, moving main battery into aux position and replacing with a brand new main battery. Don't create an aux battery bus, but just wire the two batteries in parallel. Any advantage to having 2 batteries instead of one with twice the capacity? Dave Morris > > > If you truly cannot > get the e-bus loads down on the order of 3A then a bigger > battery or second alternator should be considered. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: RG Battery Pack Purchase
> >Bob, as an alternative to a "bigger battery", what about the idea of having >a second battery wired directly in parallel with the main battery. Then >use your technique of annual replacement of second battery, moving main >battery into aux position and replacing with a brand new main >battery. Don't create an aux battery bus, but just wire the two batteries >in parallel. Any advantage to having 2 batteries instead of one with twice >the capacity? Sure . . . but it's 12# heavier than a second alternator and has a recurring replacement cost. Depending on how much you pay for batteries, the second alternator will break even in 4-7 years. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Sky-tec not cranking - Canard, Z14, Lyc IO-360
Date: Dec 03, 2003
Hello James, please make sure, that you have a very clean and tight connection, where the ground bonding strap hits the engine case. I had not properly removed the paint below the ground strap on the case and had exactly this starting problem (and my engine controls got quite hot)! We did also before the first start preoil the engine with the upper plugs removed until oil pressure was up, it turned already slow there so I should have noticed it. We then grounded with a jumper cable from the exhaust to the battery minus and what a surprise, it immediately started (would not do this on a pusher without fixing the cable on the airframe), cleaned toroughly the ear of the engine case, torqued the screw and since then no hot engine control rods =(;o) Good luck Werner ----- Original Message ----- From: "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Sky-tec not cranking - Canard, Z14, Lyc IO-360 > > I know this was meant for Bob ***AND*** that this is a simplistic question, > but .... > > Can you turn the engine by hand with and without plugs installed?? > > Just curious. > > James > > > > Problem: I can barely (if at all) turn the prop with the starter. > > It's a stout engine with 9.2:1 pistons and 100WW mineral oil (for > > break-in), but I thought I'd at least get 1 blade through during > > crank!!! The engine is preheated The batteries are warm. > > > > Further info: My Ship Ground wires are individual 4AWG from > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: william mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Electric Carb heat?
> >http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/carbheater.php > Guys - Here's Aircraft Spruce response to my inquiry about the above carb heat modules: > CBH001 NO LONGER AVAILABLE > 07-00676 -- CARBURETOR HEATER DUAL CARB UN -- QTY 1 -- $426.95 Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Snap noise when strobes fire
> >I have wing tip strobes on my RV-4 and my Whelan power supply is in rear >baggage compartment. Normally have a whooping sound and was instructed to >try separate battery at the strobe power supply which eliminates the >whooping sound. Now there is a loud snap in the headset when the strobes >fire. Any clues? Have you explored how the noise gets into the system? Which radio(s) have to be on? Does any volume control affect intensity of sound? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: 10975 Marshall
> >If the engine is mounted up on the vertical tail and the battery is >located mid-fuselage, how do you protect the starter and alternator from >overload as well as the cable running to and from these components? Where >should the circuit breakers be located? Alternator feeds into system at the starter contactor which is on the firewall. ANL current limiter protects alternator wiring. Battery and battery contactor are amidships with major cranking current and ground feeders running from battery ground and battery contactor to the engine. Smaller service ground, on the order of 4AWG runs from battery ground to instrument panel ground. Similar feeder runs from battery contactor up to the main bus forward of panel. It's sorta like View -C- of figure Z-15 for a seaplane except the battery is moved back to the midships ground location. >Thanks for your help and excellant AeroElectric Manual Your welcome. I'm pleased that you find it useful! I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Thanks! Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re:
> >I am planning to purchase one of those 12 volt "power packs" - aka "auto >boosters" - as a cost effective source for an RG battery for a homebuilt RV-3. > >Are there any pointers in what to look for when buying same? I realize >that most of the advertising claims about cranking amps and such will tend >to be a bit flaky but are there any useful guides other than picking up >the box and guessing the weight of the battery inside? > >Saw an AC Delco unit to day mentioning it contained a 17 amp hr battery. >Suitable for my intended use? > >I am writing from Canada so any comment from someone familiar with the >Canadian Tire line of these devices would be especially helpful. Virtually ALL such products use a 17 a.h. sealed, lead-acid battery. Like all popular products, there are many suppliers with variable skills and integrity. If you're planning to do a yearly swapout -OR- if your airplane is a day-vfr only machine and you have flight-bag backups for nav and comm, then bottom line quality and service life for your battery choice is not a concern. Give it a try. Ignore the "ratings" on the box for cranking amps, etc. They're essentially meaningless or given in a context that doesn't match any way you'll use the battery. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Flightcom 403D
Subject: Bob, wiring of headphone jacks for
Flightcom 403D Flightcom 403D > > >Jim Muegge > > >Bob, > >Quick question, > >I am installing a Flightcom 403D in my RV-8 and am wiring the headphone >jacks. Flightcom shows the jack grounded at the jack. Do I need to run >shielded cable for the audio out to the jack? If so which end do I >terminate the shield? Also going to install a small jack for audio in >for a CD player. Does this jack also need it's ground isolated? >Thanks for the help. You do a great job. Thank you for the kind words. Refer to pages at the back of: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700D.pdf for guidance. Microphone and headset jacks should never be grounded locally. Use shielded wire or twisted pair to take all microphone and/or headset wires back to a ground common with the audio system preferably at the connector as illustrated in the drawings cited above. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Battery tester
> >I was at the local Harbor Freight store yesterday and one of the things I >looked at but did not buy was a battery tester. This thing was on sale for >about $19, which I think was half price. It had a couple of jumper-cable >type leads with big alligator grips, a digital readout and a spring loaded >toggle switch labeled "load" that the instructions said to switch on for no >more than 10 seconds. > >Might this be the kind of batter tester you have suggested, Bob? Here is a >link to their catalog page: >http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=90250 > >I see that it's also available with an analog gauge. I looked at a similar product at Harbor Freight some time ago. It's probably useful and the price is low-risk. Testing a battery under load is the only way to reasonably deduce internal resistance and to some extent, capacity. However, if you do a yearly swapout of cheap batteries, this tester will ALWAYS show the battery to be "good" . . . cause it IS GOOD and you planned it that way. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Manager Wiring.
Subject: Re: AEC9005-101LVWarn Auxiliary Battery
Manager Wiring. Manager Wiring. > >Bob! > >I've finished installing your LVWABM in my all electric RV-7 per your >installation dwg 9005-701B dated 9 February 2003. Turning the DC Master to >the Bat position shows I have slightly over 12 volts on the voltmeter but >the Lo Volts warning light does not flash. Turning the Aux Bat switch to the >Auto position changes nothing. Turning the Aux Bat switch to the ON position >lights up the Aux Battery On light. I'm not in a position to run the engine >to charge the as yet, as the project is not ready to go to the airport yet. >I'm just finishing up the wiring of the airframe while it's in the garage. >Engine is hung, etc. I have two 18 hr SLA batteries mounted on the firewall >with B&C 60 amp alternator and the generic Ford voltage regulator. Any >suggestions as to what is wrong here. I'd check the wiring to the connector. Make sure all the wires are in the right holes. These things are pretty simple and to date, they've always worked when wired right. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: COM antenna feedback
> >For anyone with a non-metal skin aircraft having trouble with the ground >plane and/or wanting to try a different type of antenna that has a small >amount of gain over the typical whip antenna, I've designed a loop antenna >for composite aircraft that would also work on an aircraft with wood >skin. The information is at >http://www.davemorris.com/dave/MorrisDFLoop.html and the antenna can be >squared off if your tail cone is more square than round. This is one element of the famous "cubical quad" beam antenna popularized by hams beginning 40 years or more ago. This is a highly directional antenna with maximum performance for stations broadside to the "loop" and sharp nulls off the edges. Consider a simple, center fed dipole bonded to inside surface of fuselage with center on side. Wrap ends up and over, down and under the fuselage curvature. Trim to optimum length with antenna analyzer. This will provide near-omni directional performance ad a minimum of fabrication effort and cost. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Sky-tec not cranking - Canard, Z14, Lyc IO-360
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" <wayne.r.blackler(at)boeing.com>
Yes, I can. I ran the engine two weeks ago. - Wayne -----Original Message----- From: James E. Clark [mailto:james(at)nextupventures.com] Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Sky-tec not cranking - Canard, Z14, Lyc IO-360 I know this was meant for Bob ***AND*** that this is a simplistic question, but .... Can you turn the engine by hand with and without plugs installed?? Just curious. James > Problem: I can barely (if at all) turn the prop with the starter. > It's a stout engine with 9.2:1 pistons and 100WW mineral oil (for > break-in), but I thought I'd at least get 1 blade through during > crank!!! The engine is preheated The batteries are warm. > > Further info: My Ship Ground wires are individual 4AWG from > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: two RG batteries in autos
Would two of the 17ah batteries wired in parallel be enough to start and run a car adequately. You could swap out an aircraft battery every year for a car battery and then you would have essentially new car batteries every two years. Joa --------------------------------- Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
Subject: Re: RV-List: batteries
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Bill, This is interesting stuff (I'm cc'ing this post to the Aeroelectric list since it's very relevant to the subject matter discussed there). I've pondered my options for a backup battery on my dual Lightspeed -8A. I've settled on the 16 ah Odyssey for my main battery, and this should give me a pretty good reserve if the alternator craps out because my essential loads for panel and one Lightspeed ignition are 3-4 Amps max. The backup battery will feed only the other ignition system and is normally charged from the main battery/alternator via a Schottky diode. So....odds of the backup battery ever being called upon to do its job of keeping the engine running after everything else is dead is pretty unlikely. Chances are it will just be dead weight for the life of the airplane. With that in mind, I'd like to minimize the amount of dead weight that I have to carry around for that improbable "just in case" scenario. The cheapest/simplest way (and recommended by Klaus Savier when using dual Lightspeeds) is to put in a SLA 4.5 ah backup battery. These can be had for $10-30 from what I've seen online, but they weigh 4-5 lbs, and should probably be changed every other year to make sure the capacity is there if you ever need it. Lithium Ion sounds appealing due to it's light weight, but as you pointed out, charging is not so simple (Eric Jones, are you out there? Weren't you working on a charging management module for Lithium Ions in airplanes?). Not sure about NiMH...they seem to be getting more popular in lots of consumer stuff. Too expensive? Charging issues?? But anyway...you are recommending NiCads. My experience with them has been limited to R/C models and hasn't been too stellar. I always tried to cycle them properly but even then they seemed to go bad just as fast as the lead acids I've used (2-4 years). But let's say, ignoring price for a moment, I wanted a 4-5 ah, 12 V NiCad pack. Can you recommend any specific sources to get such an animal? Google didn't turn up too much for me, and what little I found (in the $150-200 range) had no specs for weight. And if I were to install a 12V NiCad pack, can I just drop it in place of the current location for my backup battery, always having it on charge from the alternator via a Schottky, and expect it to perform well if needed? How many years would I be able to expect reliable operation from it before needing replacement? If I have to replace it every other year (like I would the SLA), and it costs 5-10X the price and only saves a couple pounds, it obviously doesn't make much sense. If it only needs to be replaced every decade, then the weight savings plus reduced hassle of frequent replacements makes the price look more attractive.... --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D finishing.... From: Bill Dube <bdube(at)al.noaa.gov> Subject: Re: RV-List: batteries --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" > > >I'll have to go look at the model number but it is a common (large >size) motorcycle battery from NAPA. They supply several models of >the same physical size that vary from 17 to 22 AH and I picked the >highest one. Price was highest too, about $65 as I recall. Trouble >is I don't know what the discharge rate was for that spec. >Generally, the faster you drain a lead acid battery the lower its >rating goes, so the difference in ratings might not even be real if >they used different discharge rates. There is a formula you can use called "Peukert's Equation" that allows you to calculate the amp-hr capacity of the battery at any discharge rate. To set the two constants in the equation, you must know the actual capacity at two different discharge rates. Here is a link to a Peukert calculator: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/battery.html >It takes about 12 amps to keep my controllers, pumps, ignition coils >(4) and injectors fed. The 22 AH should last well over 1 hr but it >doesn't. The amp-hr specification is at the 20 hr discharge rate. Thus, if you had a draw of 1.1 amps, the battery would supply 22 amp-hrs over the 20 hours that it took to run it flat. If instead, you pulled 22 amps from it, it would might last only 15 or 20 minutes before it was dead. "Stiff" batteries with high CCAs and low internal resistance do not suffer as badly from this problem. Also, NiCad batteries and Li-Ion batteries lose very little capacity at modestly high discharges. That is another reason that they make excellent back-up type batteries. > The 22 AH rating is probably at a very low current draw. The CCA >rating is pretty low on this battery but the Mazda rotary doesn't >take much torque to crank. No valve train to operate and only 3 >moving parts. If you were to get a battery with a greater CCA, but a slightly lower amp-hr capacity, it would probably run your airplane longer without an alternator. >My thanks to Bill Dube for the quick course on batteries. Just the >info I needed to make an intelligent choice for the -8 I'm building. >I'll probably spring for the ni-cads and leave the motorcycle battery >in the -4 test mule. Some of the aircraft style starting batteries can produce startlingly high CCA's, last nearly forever, and have excellent "dead alternator" capacity for their weight. They cost a fortune, however. Typically five to eight times the cost of a similar CCA lead-acid battery. Ouch! If you are interested in just the one hour capacity, and are not going to use the NiCad to start the airplane, the cost is not as painful. For the same one-hour capacity, a flooded NiCad will weigh about 1/2 as much as a lead-acid battery and will cost _just_ three to four times as much. Aircraft starting NiCads are often available used and are often in very good condition used. However, there are many models and styles and they all don't have good CCA ratings. You can ruin NiCads if you stray beyond their peak amperage (discharge) ratings. Also, some folks try to sell worn-out NiCads, or even give them away, because they are expensive to "throw" away as they contain cadmium. Load test before you buy a used NiCad! If you are planning a two battery system for reliability, probably the best choice would be an AGM for starting and a NiCad for back-up. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: adjusting charging on Rotax 912s
I ran across this post on the S-7 yahoogroup... what do you all think, does this sound like a reasonable solution or does the problem not exist? Joa _____________________ " About Dale's comment regarding charging voltage/batteries: Using a float charger as you described, would probably do a good job of keeping the battery up. I use them at home for my motorcycles, too. However there's no AC in the hangar, except for running my Honda generator. Some background on this: You may recall my asking if anybody was having kickback problems on cold starting. This seemed to be related to the battery gradually being discharged. I talked to the techs at Lockwood and they said that charging voltage in the range of 13.5 to 13.8 was about typical for the 912. Checking the Powersonic Website, I find that they recommend 13.5 to 13.8 for float charging, that is, charging over a long period. But for intermittent charge/discharge use, which would be as used in our aircraft, they recommend the charging voltage of between 14.4 to 14.7. Adjusting the charging: The white wire from the regulator (the C lead), is the wire that the regulator uses to look at the voltage. I inserted into this wire, a 0 - 25 ohm variable resister. I mounted it under the dash on a small tab. Turning the adjustment will vary the charging voltage anywhere between 13.7 and 15.1 volts. I can adjust it in flight, if I wish. Right now I have it set at 14.5. I'll let you all know how this is working out in the future. Joe Shelton S7 242K Kingman, AZ" --------------------------------- Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "AI Nut" <ainut(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: batteries
Date: Dec 03, 2003
This is my limited understanding and experience: Nothing beats the 'ole lead-acid battery for surge demand, such as starting the engine 8-). NiMH batteries aren't good for surges, but last quite a long time during heavy use. However, they won't hold a charge while not being used. Their self discharge rate is quite high. This is from experience. Lithium would be ideal for weight and longevity. Not ideal for cost, and don't know about surge capability. NiCads are best used by cycles of fully charging and fully discharging, due to their "memory" characteristics. In engine use, they will die very quickly. Fuel cells, maybe??? AI Nut ----- Original Message ----- From: <czechsix(at)juno.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-List: batteries > > > Bill, > > This is interesting stuff (I'm cc'ing this post to the Aeroelectric list since it's very relevant to the subject matter discussed there). I've pondered my options for a backup battery on my dual Lightspeed -8A. I've settled on the 16 ah Odyssey for my main battery, and this should give me a pretty good reserve if the alternator craps out because my essential loads for panel and one Lightspeed ignition are 3-4 Amps max. The backup battery will feed only the other ignition system and is normally charged from the main battery/alternator via a Schottky diode. So....odds of the backup battery ever being called upon to do its job of keeping the engine running after everything else is dead is pretty unlikely. Chances are it will just be dead weight for the life of the airplane. With that in mind, I'd like to minimize the amount of dead weight that I have to carry around for that improbable "just in case" scenario. > > The cheapest/simplest way (and recommended by Klaus Savier when using dual Lightspeeds) is to put in a SLA 4.5 ah backup battery. These can be had for $10-30 from what I've seen online, but they weigh 4-5 lbs, and should probably be changed every other year to make sure the capacity is there if you ever need it. Lithium Ion sounds appealing due to it's light weight, but as you pointed out, charging is not so simple (Eric Jones, are you out there? Weren't you working on a charging management module for Lithium Ions in airplanes?). Not sure about NiMH...they seem to be getting more popular in lots of consumer stuff. Too expensive? Charging issues?? > > But anyway...you are recommending NiCads. My experience with them has been limited to R/C models and hasn't been too stellar. I always tried to cycle them properly but even then they seemed to go bad just as fast as the lead acids I've used (2-4 years). But let's say, ignoring price for a moment, I wanted a 4-5 ah, 12 V NiCad pack. Can you recommend any specific sources to get such an animal? Google didn't turn up too much for me, and what little I found (in the $150-200 range) had no specs for weight. And if I were to install a 12V NiCad pack, can I just drop it in place of the current location for my backup battery, always having it on charge from the alternator via a Schottky, and expect it to perform well if needed? How many years would I be able to expect reliable operation from it before needing replacement? > > If I have to replace it every other year (like I would the SLA), and it costs 5-10X the price and only saves a couple pounds, it obviously doesn't make much sense. If it only needs to be replaced every decade, then the weight savings plus reduced hassle of frequent replacements makes the price look more attractive.... > > --Mark Navratil > Cedar Rapids, Iowa > RV-8A N2D finishing.... > > From: Bill Dube <bdube(at)al.noaa.gov> > Subject: Re: RV-List: batteries > > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" > > > > > >I'll have to go look at the model number but it is a common (large >size) motorcycle battery from NAPA. They supply several models of >the same physical size that vary from 17 to 22 AH and I picked the >highest one. Price was highest too, about $65 as I recall. Trouble >is I don't know what the discharge rate was for that spec. >Generally, the faster you drain a lead acid battery the lower its >rating goes, so the difference in ratings might not even be real if >they used different discharge rates. > > There is a formula you can use called "Peukert's Equation" that allows you to calculate the amp-hr capacity of the battery at any discharge rate. To set the two constants in the equation, you must know the actual capacity at two different discharge rates. > > Here is a link to a Peukert calculator: > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/battery.html > > > >It takes about 12 amps to keep my controllers, pumps, ignition coils >(4) and injectors fed. The 22 AH should last well over 1 hr but it >doesn't. > > The amp-hr specification is at the 20 hr discharge rate. Thus, if you had a draw of 1.1 amps, the battery would supply 22 amp-hrs over the 20 hours that it took to run it flat. If instead, you pulled 22 amps from it, it would might last only 15 or 20 minutes before it was dead. > > "Stiff" batteries with high CCAs and low internal resistance do not suffer as badly from this problem. Also, NiCad batteries and Li-Ion batteries lose very little capacity at modestly high discharges. That is another reason that they make excellent back-up type batteries. > > > The 22 AH rating is probably at a very low current draw. The CCA >rating is pretty low on this battery but the Mazda rotary doesn't >take much torque to crank. No valve train to operate and only 3 >moving parts. > > If you were to get a battery with a greater CCA, but a slightly lower amp-hr capacity, it would probably run your airplane longer without an alternator. > > > >My thanks to Bill Dube for the quick course on batteries. Just the >info I needed to make an intelligent choice for the -8 I'm building. >I'll probably spring for the ni-cads and leave the motorcycle battery >in the -4 test mule. > > Some of the aircraft style starting batteries can produce > startlingly high CCA's, last nearly forever, and have excellent "dead > alternator" capacity for their weight. They cost a fortune, however. > Typically five to eight times the cost of a similar CCA lead-acid battery. > Ouch! > > If you are interested in just the one hour capacity, and are not going to use the NiCad to start the airplane, the cost is not as painful. For the same one-hour capacity, a flooded NiCad will weigh about 1/2 as much as a lead-acid battery and will cost _just_ three to four times as much. > > Aircraft starting NiCads are often available used and are often in very good condition used. However, there are many models and styles and they all don't have good CCA ratings. You can ruin NiCads if you stray beyond their peak amperage (discharge) ratings. Also, some folks try to sell worn-out NiCads, or even give them away, because they are expensive to "throw" away as they contain cadmium. Load test before you buy a used NiCad! > > If you are planning a two battery system for reliability, probably the best choice would be an AGM for starting and a NiCad for back-up. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
Subject: Re: adjusting charging on Rotax 912s
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
I have a couple of comments... Most alternators don't produce their rated voltage until they turn up to a particular RPM. I'd be a little surprised if the Rotax alternator only goes up to 13.8V when turned at full RPM (when loaded below rated output). For reference, the B&C dynamo on my O200 doesn't make 14V until it turns up to about 1800 RPM when lightly loaded. I'd also be a little surprised to find that the Powersonic batteries require higher charging voltage than other "12V" lead acid batteries. If the designed regulator voltage setpoint is as low as has been described, this seems like a quick and dirty solution. However, it will only useable for regulators on which the sense wire sinks a fixed amount of current over all operating modes. If the sense wire current varies with operating condition, the added resistance may provide unpredictable behavior on some regulator designs. I believe that these circuits were likely designed with a low resistance connection to the battery. Another thought is that it might be possible to have a regulator tuned to a little higher output voltage. Someone may already be doing this. I assume there isn't an adjustment screw on the exterior of the regulator. Maybe there is on the inside. The adjustment may be made via proper precision component selection at the factory, though. That would be bit of a bummer. Finally, its good to keep in mind is that increasing parts count is almost never good for reliability. As well, I don't think I want any more 'controls' in my airplane. I'd much rather select components that take care of themselves while I'm out buzzing around. Regards, Matt- N34RD > > > I ran across this post on the S-7 yahoogroup... what do you all think, > does this sound like a reasonable solution or does the problem not > exist? > > Joa > _____________________ > " About Dale's comment regarding charging voltage/batteries: Using a > float charger as you described, would probably do a good job of keeping > the battery up. I use them at home for my motorcycles, too. However > there's no AC in the hangar, except for running my Honda generator. > Some background on this: You may recall my asking if anybody was having > kickback problems on cold starting. This seemed to be related to the > battery gradually being discharged. I talked to the techs at Lockwood > and they said that charging voltage in the range of 13.5 to 13.8 was > about typical for the 912. Checking the Powersonic Website, I find that > they recommend 13.5 to 13.8 for float charging, that is, charging over a > long period. But for intermittent charge/discharge use, which would be > as used in our aircraft, they recommend the charging voltage of between > 14.4 to 14.7. > > > Adjusting the charging: The white wire from the regulator (the C lead), > is the wire that the regulator uses to look at the voltage. I inserted > into this wire, a 0 - 25 ohm variable resister. I mounted it under the > dash on a small tab. Turning the adjustment will vary the charging > voltage anywhere between 13.7 and 15.1 volts. I can adjust it in > flight, if I wish. Right now I have it set at 14.5. I'll let you all > know how this is working out in the future. Joe Shelton S7 242K > Kingman, AZ" > > > --------------------------------- > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: plaurence@the-beach.net
Date: Dec 03, 2003
Subject: Re: LED questions
On 26 Nov 2003 at 17:47, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: type in LED on Google. You'll find lots of primers. peter > > > > > > > >Can I second this enquiry please? Bob, can you point us at a > >back-to-basics article about LEDs and dimming them? It would be very > >useful to know, for example, how to calculate the resistor values for > >one / some LEDs in series / parallel, etc. > > > >Thanks in advance. > > Eric has done well in this regard already. There's an old article I > did on the topic several years ago at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/leds3.pdf > > Bob . . . > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. > http://www.matronics.com/chat > ==== > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ned Thomas" <315(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: two RG batteries in autos
Date: Dec 03, 2003
Hi Joa, I bought my 17 ah battery too soon before my experimental was ready. So when the Toyota 4runner batt died I installed the 17ah AGM sealed battery. It has the V6 and never started better. Been running for a year that way. Plenty of cranking power Ned ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joa Harrison" <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: two RG batteries in autos > > Would two of the 17ah batteries wired in parallel be enough to start and run a car adequately. You could swap out an aircraft battery every year for a car battery and then you would have essentially new car batteries every two years. > > Joa > > > --------------------------------- > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: two RG batteries in autos
> > >Would two of the 17ah batteries wired in parallel be enough to start and >run a car adequately. You could swap out an aircraft battery every year >for a car battery and then you would have essentially new car batteries >every two years. A 17 a.h. battery would work fine in a car. Plenty of cranking ability. Not sure about the swap-out your describing. Are you talking about rotating an aux battery out of the airplane after 2 years service into a car? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: batteries
> > >Bill, > >This is interesting stuff (I'm cc'ing this post to the Aeroelectric list >since it's very relevant to the subject matter discussed there). I've >pondered my options for a backup battery on my dual Lightspeed -8A. I've >settled on the 16 ah Odyssey for my main battery, and this should give me >a pretty good reserve if the alternator craps out because my essential >loads for panel and one Lightspeed ignition are 3-4 Amps max. The backup >battery will feed only the other ignition system and is normally charged >from the main battery/alternator via a Schottky diode. So....odds of the >backup battery ever being called upon to do its job of keeping the engine >running after everything else is dead is pretty unlikely. Chances are it >will just be dead weight for the life of the airplane. With that in mind, >I'd like to minimize the amount of dead weight that I have to carry around >for that improbable "just in case" scenario. > >The cheapest/simplest way (and recommended by Klaus Savier when using dual >Lightspeeds) is to put in a SLA 4.5 ah backup battery. These can be had >for $10-30 from what I've seen online, but they weigh 4-5 lbs, and should >probably be changed every other year to make sure the capacity is there if >you ever need it. Lithium Ion sounds appealing due to it's light weight, >but as you pointed out, charging is not so simple (Eric Jones, are you out >there? Weren't you working on a charging management module for Lithium >Ions in airplanes?). Not sure about NiMH...they seem to be getting more >popular in lots of consumer stuff. Too expensive? Charging issues?? If you want purely a standby battery that's never loaded, consider an alkaline pack built from D sized cells. Reasonably priced, easy to acquire. VERY long shelf life. Don't need a charging circuit. If you plan to maintain a battery from the bus, then I'd recommend you stay with lead-acid . . . no special charging concerns. Are you going to have a vacuum system? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: COM antenna feedback
True that cubical quads are highly directional. But that's with a 2nd element. If the antenna only consists of a single element, it is less directional. I have tested this by constructing a loop that can be handheld and then rotating it while listening to a signal. You can't really hear any difference. And since the airport tower you're talking to is usually either ahead of you or behind you, I think the little bit of directionality may be constructive. I will be testing this more scientifically soon. Dave Morris > > > > > >For anyone with a non-metal skin aircraft having trouble with the ground > >plane and/or wanting to try a different type of antenna that has a small > >amount of gain over the typical whip antenna, I've designed a loop antenna > >for composite aircraft that would also work on an aircraft with wood > >skin. The information is at > >http://www.davemorris.com/dave/MorrisDFLoop.html and the antenna can be > >squared off if your tail cone is more square than round. > > This is one element of the famous "cubical quad" beam antenna > popularized by hams beginning 40 years or more ago. This is a > highly directional antenna with maximum performance for stations > broadside to the "loop" and sharp nulls off the edges. Consider > a simple, center fed dipole bonded to inside surface of fuselage > with center on side. Wrap ends up and over, down and under the > fuselage curvature. Trim to optimum length with antenna analyzer. > This will provide near-omni directional performance ad a minimum > of fabrication effort and cost. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Borne" <caborne3(at)charter.net>
Subject: VLM-14 & LR3C-14
Date: Dec 03, 2003
Bob, I'm utilizing these components in my RV-4's Z-1 electrical system and was wondering if there are any special installation considerations for integrating the two into the system. It seems that there may be some redundant functions/features between the two. Thanks, Chuck Borne ________________________________________________________________________________
From: brucem(at)olypen.com
Subject: Firewall Penetration
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Bob, I would like to use something like your RAC stainless steel flanged elbow fitting for firewall penetration of wires in my GlaStar. Searches of the internet and marine hardware stores has not turned up anything equivalent. A RV-6 builder friend found a SS shower grab bar at Home Depot; the sawn-off ends could provide flanged elbows. The problem is massive base and wall thickness and a 1-1/2" diameter - I only need 3/4". So do you know of any supply source willing to sell me two of the 1" fittings that you use? Thanks, Bruce McGregor --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using OlyPen's WebMail. http://www.olypen.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Firewall Penetration
> >Bob, > >I would like to use something like your RAC stainless steel flanged elbow >fitting for firewall penetration of wires in my GlaStar. Searches of the >internet and marine hardware stores has not turned up anything equivalent. A >RV-6 builder friend found a SS shower grab bar at Home Depot; the sawn-off >ends >could provide flanged elbows. The problem is massive base and wall thickness >and a 1-1/2" diameter - I only need 3/4". > >So do you know of any supply source willing to sell me two of the 1" fittings >that you use? I'm working on a source for a heavy (.050") stainless weldment in sizes 1/2", 3/4" and 1" in right angle and straight versions. . . should know more after first of the year. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: COM antenna feedback
> >True that cubical quads are highly directional. But that's with a 2nd >element. If the antenna only consists of a single element, it is less >directional. I have tested this by constructing a loop that can be >handheld and then rotating it while listening to a signal. You can't >really hear any difference. And since the airport tower you're talking to >is usually either ahead of you or behind you, I think the little bit of >directionality may be constructive. I will be testing this more >scientifically soon. Great. I'd be pleased to hear the results. Do you have a way to watch an airborne receiver's AGC voltage? I've used flat turns about a point and a step attenuator to maintain constant AGC voltage on a distant station to generate some pretty fair plots of as-installed antenna patterns. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy" <rnvcrothers(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Little Batteries
Date: Dec 03, 2003
I have heard of RVers, the kind that stay on the ground, switching to the sealed Odyssey type batteries. This is partly to save some space and maybe some weight but primarily because of how fast they accept a charge. Is there something about the construction of these batteries that would allow them to take a charge faster than a normal lead acid battery? Or is this just more rumor and BS? Randy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2003
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Subject: Loadmeter
Bob, I recieved the loadmeter and intalled it today. The Loadmeter still doesn't work. Did you test it before you sent it? Ross Mickey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: F1Rocket(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Firewall Penetration
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Bruce, Check out: http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html Randy F1 Rocket http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/ > > Bob, > > I would like to use something like your RAC stainless steel flanged elbow > fitting for firewall penetration of wires in my GlaStar. Searches of the > internet and marine hardware stores has not turned up anything equivalent. A > RV-6 builder friend found a SS shower grab bar at Home Depot; the sawn-off ends > could provide flanged elbows. The problem is massive base and wall thickness > and a 1-1/2" diameter - I only need 3/4". > > So do you know of any supply source willing to sell me two of the 1" fittings > that you use? > > Thanks, Bruce > McGregor > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using OlyPen's WebMail. > http://www.olypen.com > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Firewall Penetration
> >Bruce, > >Check out: http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html > >Randy >F1 Rocket Randy, thanks for posting this. I'd forgotten that they finished development of this product and had it up for sale. I've added their web address to my list of manufacturer's data sites. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Milner" <tldrgred(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Re: snap noise when strobes fire
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Thanks to `lectric Bob I was able to eliminate a whooping noise in my headset when strobes are onby using a separate battery at the strobe power supply. Next is to install the prescribed filter/capacitor from B&C. The snap noise is noticed much louder in the hangar. I found the snap diminished quite a bit after try ing the test outside the hangar so I`m going to order and install the filter and go fly it to monitor results. I`m confident the whooping noise is going to be fixed. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: two RG batteries in autos
I was just figuring that if you used the battery in the plane for a year then you could swap it into a car and use it for two years. You would have *two* batteries in the car (unless like you said one would be fine) and then one battery would always be swapped out and the other battery used another year. The most life any one battery would see would be three years (one in the plane and two in the car). The physical size of the batteries (only about 3" deep) would allow two batteries to sit side by side in a normal auto. Joa "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: \. A 17 a.h. battery would work fine in a car. Plenty of cranking ability. Not sure about the swap-out your describing. Are you talking about rotating an aux battery out of the airplane after 2 years service into a car? Bob . . . --------------------------------- Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Loadmeter
> > >Bob, > >I recieved the loadmeter and intalled it today. The Loadmeter still >doesn't work. Did you test it before you sent it? > >Ross Mickey Yes I did. Check your wiring. You may have an error that smoked the original instrument . . . which means the last of the Mohicans may have just bit the dust also . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: VLM-14 & LR3C-14
> >Bob, > >I'm utilizing these components in my RV-4's Z-1 electrical system and was >wondering if there are any special installation considerations for >integrating the two into the system. It seems that there may be some >redundant functions/features between the two. The low voltage warning lights are redundant . . . you can leave one of them un-installed. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: two RG batteries in autos
> > >I was just figuring that if you used the battery in the plane for a year >then you could swap it into a car and use it for two years. You would >have *two* batteries in the car (unless like you said one would be fine) >and then one battery would always be swapped out and the other battery >used another year. The most life any one battery would see would be three >years (one in the plane and two in the car). > >The physical size of the batteries (only about 3" deep) would allow two >batteries to sit side by side in a normal auto. Oh, sure. I run a 32 a.h. RG in my Safari van. I've been getting 3-4 years service life (Discarding when 9v loading falls below 250A after 15 seconds). You could rotate batteries out of your airplane, running two in parallel with the oldest battery coming out each year. I think you'll find that the combination gives you superior cold weather cranking performance. Mechanics look at that itty bitty battery strapped down in an oversized tray in my van and ask where I got it. There's much disbelief when I tell them that the battery gives me better performance than the original flooded honker in spite of its diminutive size. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: snap noise when strobes fire
> >Thanks to `lectric Bob I was able to eliminate a whooping noise in my >headset when strobes are onby using a separate battery at the strobe power >supply. Next is to install the prescribed filter/capacitor from B&C. The >snap noise is noticed much louder in the hangar. I found the snap >diminished quite a bit after try ing the test outside the hangar so I`m >going to order and install the filter and go fly it to monitor results. >I`m confident the whooping noise is going to be fixed. You may find that the snap noise is inaudible with the engine running and/or in flight. If it's still there and you want to tame it, let's figure out how it's getting into the system. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <greglens(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Remove from list
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Please remove my name frome your e-mail list Thanks Greglens(at)verizon.net Recieved your book its great!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Little Batteries
> >I have heard of RVers, the kind that stay on the ground, switching to the >sealed Odyssey type batteries. This is partly to save some space and maybe >some weight but primarily because of how fast they accept a charge. Is >there something about the construction of these batteries that would allow >them to take a charge faster than a normal lead acid battery? Or is this >just more rumor and BS? There's a wealth of RG battery data published on my website and on the 'net. May I suggest you begin with the following links? http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battery.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rg_bat.html http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_thd.pdf More information is available at: http://www.hepi.com http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/chem/seal/index.html http://www.power-sonic.com/ http://www.yuasabatteries.com/ The short answer is: "Recombinant gas, sealed lead-acid batteries stand head and shoulders above the classic flooded battery technologies in energy/weight ratio, internal impedance, self discharge characteristics, cold weather performance, and complete freedom from having to enclosed the battery in a battery box." Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Subject: Re: RV-List: batteries
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-List: batteries > > >Bill, > >This is interesting stuff (I'm cc'ing this post to the Aeroelectric list >since it's very relevant to the subject matter discussed there). I've >pondered my options for a backup battery on my dual Lightspeed -8A. I've >settled on the 16 ah Odyssey for my main battery, and this should give me >a pretty good reserve if the alternator craps out because my essential >loads for panel and one Lightspeed ignition are 3-4 Amps max. The backup >battery will feed only the other ignition system and is normally charged >from the main battery/alternator via a Schottky diode. So....odds of the >backup battery ever being called upon to do its job of keeping the engine >running after everything else is dead is pretty unlikely. Chances are it >will just be dead weight for the life of the airplane. With that in mind, >I'd like to minimize the amount of dead weight that I have to carry around >for that improbable "just in case" scenario. > >The cheapest/simplest way (and recommended by Klaus Savier when using dual >Lightspeeds) is to put in a SLA 4.5 ah backup battery. These can be had >for $10-30 from what I've seen online, but they weigh 4-5 lbs, and should >probably be changed every other year to make sure the capacity is there if >you ever need it. Lithium Ion sounds appealing due to it's light weight, >but as you pointed out, charging is not so simple (Eric Jones, are you out >there? Weren't you working on a charging management module for Lithium >Ions in airplanes?). Not sure about NiMH...they seem to be getting more >popular in lots of consumer stuff. Too expensive? Charging issues?? If you want purely a standby battery that's never loaded, consider an alkaline pack built from D sized cells. Reasonably priced, easy to acquire. VERY long shelf life. Don't need a charging circuit. If you plan to maintain a battery from the bus, then I'd recommend you stay with lead-acid . . . no special charging concerns. Are you going to have a vacuum system? Bob . . . Bob, nope, heavens no, not a vacuum system! The only GOOD thing about them is that they do keep running when everything electrical goes south. I have the standard main bus and e-bus arrangement. Right now I'm planning a VFR airplane, if I go IFR I'll put the internal battery in the Dynon so it will keep working if I lose electrical power and I've got a backup ICOM nav/com too. The plan to keep the engine running is to feed one off the main battery and the other off the backup battery (approx 4.5 ah) which will be kept charged via a Schottky diode from the main batt/electrical system. I s'pose I could feed the second ignition also off the main batt with a switch to feed it from some Alkalines that would never get used except as last resort. So...8 D-cells in series equals 12 VDC. How many ah capacity does that represent? The Lightspeed pulls 1.2 A max, probably more like 1 A when running at cruise rpms.... --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D eternally stuck in never-never-finishing-land...which sucks, but is better than being stuck with M. Jackson's never-never land...eeeewww! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Hackney" <lhackney(at)rglobal.net>
Subject: Diode
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Bob, When you do a continuity check across the diode between the main bus & E-bus, should you get an indication of resistance? I'm showing a little spike of resistance for a millisecond and then nothing. At first I thought that there would be resistance one direction and not the other, no current flow. Then I thought that this is normal because the diode doesn't know which way the current is flowing through the multi-meter, therefore it's just doing what it was designed to do, stop the flow of current. I have the AC side of the diode wired from the main bus and the + side going to the E-bus. (see attached pic) Also, on the LR3C-14, I have a jumper from # 7 to the ground stud and then a wire from there to the firewall ground block. Is this acceptable? Thanks in advance, Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric Ruttan" <ericruttan(at)chartermi.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: batteries
Date: Dec 04, 2003
> If you want purely a standby battery that's never loaded, consider > an alkaline pack built from D sized cells. Reasonably priced, easy > to acquire. VERY long shelf life. Don't need a charging circuit. > If you plan to maintain a battery from the bus, then I'd recommend > you stay with lead-acid . . . no special charging concerns. > Bob . . . > Bob: Have you considered using d cell as the sole backup for the ebus? It seems they have great energy density(low weight), huge shelf life and cheap. I belive 8 d cells have about 10 AH. You could use two sets. Would such a setup allow the safe elimination of the second alternator and battery? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Diode
> > >Bob, > >When you do a continuity check across the diode between the main bus & >E-bus, should you get an indication of resistance? I'm showing a little >spike of resistance for a millisecond and then nothing. At first I >thought that there would be resistance one direction and not the other, no >current flow. Then I thought that this is normal because the diode >doesn't know which way the current is flowing through the multi-meter, >therefore it's just doing what it was designed to do, stop the flow of >current. I have the AC side of the diode wired from the main bus and the >+ side going to the E-bus. (see attached pic) It depends on your ohmmeter. Many modern instruments do all their testing at voltage levels too low to make meaningful measurements on a diode. I believe you've wired it correctly (as shown in: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/s401-25.jpg ) . . . so you're fine . . . >Also, on the LR3C-14, I have a jumper from # 7 to the ground stud and then >a wire from there to the firewall ground block. Is this acceptable? What kind of airplane? Where is LR3 mounted? The dual grounding terminals are primarily intended for composite aircraft. If you've got a metal airplane, then mounting LR3 on already grounded surface, firewall is sufficient for the ground stud. A ground wire from #7 to firewall ground block is good too. Bob . . . >Thanks in advance, >Larry > > Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( A beginning of the end is marked by ) ( replacement of experience and common ) ( sense with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: Firewall Penetration
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Wonderful product (epm.av's) that mimicks Bob's home grown grab bar solution and adds the 2000 degree "Biotherm 100 silicone fireblock sealant" to dress the end of "fire sleeve stuffed sleeve of fire sleeve". I just called and they buy the VERY expensive sealant and repackage into 1.5 oz doses to sell with the kits. Since I've already bought a grab bar (1.25 OD), I'll buy some of their sealant to "dress" the end of the "stuffed fire sleeve". I can cut my grab bar so only use 3/4 inch and it will be "almost" straight - straight enough to get my throttle cable to go though OK, rather than use the full 90 degree bend that I'd planned on (just for wires). David Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Penetration > > > > >Bruce, > > > >Check out: http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html > > > >Randy > >F1 Rocket > > Randy, thanks for posting this. I'd forgotten that > they finished development of this product and had > it up for sale. I've added their web address to my > list of manufacturer's data sites. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Dec 04, 2003
>From: czechsix(at)juno.com >These can be had for $10-30 from what I've seen online, but they weigh 4-5 lbs, and should probably >be changed every other year to make sure the capacity is there if you ever need it. >Lithium Ion sounds appealing due to it's light weight, but as you pointed out, >charging is not so simple (Eric Jones, are you out there? Weren't you working >on a charging management module for Lithium Ions in airplanes?). >--Mark Navratil Mark, yes I've been keeping my head down somewhat and trying not to start new products until I get more of the current ones out the door. I am concerned that the Li-Ion batteries my be obsolete in a year or two because of fuel cells. www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2003_03/pr0501.htm. The suggestion to just use regular alkaline batteries for a backup is probably best. I posted a device called "Start me up", that uses a short stack of Polapulse batteries. I think they went under. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Alkaline Backup Batteries
> > > > > If you want purely a standby battery that's never loaded, consider > > an alkaline pack built from D sized cells. Reasonably priced, easy > > to acquire. VERY long shelf life. Don't need a charging circuit. > > If you plan to maintain a battery from the bus, then I'd recommend > > you stay with lead-acid . . . no special charging concerns. > > > > Bob . . . > > >Bob: >Have you considered using d cell as the sole backup for the ebus? >It seems they have great energy density(low weight), huge shelf life and >cheap. >I belive 8 d cells have about 10 AH. You could use two sets. > >Would such a setup allow the safe elimination of the second alternator and >battery? How do you mean "safe" . . . the dictionary says "free from harm or risk:, "secure from threat of danger, harm, or loss". The risks associated with getting into any vehicle are NEVER zero so I'll suggest you are never safe. Everything we do in systems design and operating philosophy works toward risk mitigation. We know that the biggest single risk to aircraft is pilot distraction that overshadows whatever skills and attention are required to win the day when something unpredicted happens. Reliability achieved by designing for failure tolerance which also suggests that system components be easily tested and/or maintained with rudimentary preventative maintenance at hopefully attractive prices. There is no better backup for an alternator than a battery that is routinely checked (you cranked an engine with it a short time ago) and well maintained (capacity checks or yearly change-out). A second alternator in the form of an SD-8 will provide 120+ watts of power for duration of fuel aboard (difficult to match with ANY battery less than 25 pounds) yet weighs only 4# installed and requires no maintenance. See http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/others/ATB-5.pdf The "15 a.h." rating is for discharge down to 0.8 volts at If we built an array of 10 cells, we need to call end-of-life at 10.5 volts or about 1 volt per cell. I think it's safe to call them a 10 a.h. battery but that's probably at a 10 hour rate. If you paralleled 2 sets, 20 cells at $2.50 per cell you'll have a $50, 20 a.h. battery that weighs 2 pounds more than the alternator it replaces and stores only about 1/2 the power available from the SD-8 over the same full tank of fuel. I've built many a battery powered device wherein an array of soldered-together alkaline cells were my first choice for stored energy. The battery chapter of the 'Connection even suggests an alkaline cell array as a backup power option. That chapter was written several years before the e-bus and all-electric-airplane-on-a-budget came along. The battery chapter is going to be updated at Revision 11. It's not a "BAD" choice for backup power in an airplane wired like a 172 . . . and fitted with certified hardware . . . but I'll suggest that there are more attractive combinations of energy generation and storage available to the OBAM aircraft community. My personal choice for reliability, cost of ownership and simplicity of maintenance still has to be combinations of alternators and multiple RG batteries as suggested by the airplane's proposed mission and the builder's budget. I reserve run-em-down-once cells for my hand-helds and replace those OFTEN. If we're installing ND alternators and well maintained RG batteries, we're already talking an order of magnitude better reliability than certified ships. I'd have to think long and hard to justify flying a primary cell power source to ward of evil spirits that have already taken down the alternator and ship's normal battery. If you've suffered this dual failure already, depending on an array of cells that are difficult to test seems like a poor return on investment for covering a combination of events you shouldn't have to experience over the lifetime of your airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
"aeroelectric-list"
Subject: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
Date: Dec 04, 2003
This is going to both the Aeroelectric and RV-lists, in hopes of increasing probability of someone being able to help with this issue. I want to put cockpit audio into my video camera when doing test flying to get pictures of instruments & audio comments I make - should greatly reduce "head down in cockpit" time taking notes and greatly increase amount of instrument reading data collected. I went to Radio Shack and bought a Y adapter (p/n 274-892) with single male plug that goes into the "audio out" plug on instrument panel. The Y adapter has two female holes (jacks?) into which the headset audio plug goes and also a 6' long extension cord with 1/4 male plug that goes into other hole of Y adapter, with its other end (1/8 male) plugged into video camera's audio jack. When I replay cockpit recordings, the audio of the video camera is distorted - amplitude too high coming out of intercom to be compatible with video recorder. - Had same problem in F-100 30 years ago when trying to record air-to-air combat audio. Now I remember why my Avionics guys put a small (1" or less) centertap "audio transformer" into a little box (adapter) that cut the signal amplitude in half - worked fine. Options: 1. I can do the 1973 version: Buy a small centertapped "audio output transformer" (RS p/n 273-1380: 1000 ohms and 8 ohms with center tap on the 1000 ohm side?), then cut my 6' RS extension cord somewhere convenient, strip the cut ends and solder end(s) coming from aircraft audio jack to the end of the ??? -- I can't even visualize what I have to connect. Looks like the raw (too big) audio signal would have to go into one end of the winding that is NOT center-tapped and then have the other end of that winding go ____???. Then solder the other end of cord (that goes into the video camera) to center tap (which should have 1/2 audo amplitude of that coming into this transformer-adapter). 2. While shopping at Radio Shack today, I saw a TV thing: "300 ohm to 75 ohm matching adapter". I'm assuming it has a transformer inside the neat fat cable housing. Problem: It has two U connectors on one end that obviously go onto two screws for antenna input; other end looks like a center conductor TV cable end. That is a 4 to 1 change of ohms (300 to 75 or vice versa) - is it done with a transformer? If so, I could have a neater adapter by modifying that gadget to have a 1/4" male plug on one end and a 1/4" female jack on other: I'd then plug it into the Y adapter, then plug the 6' extension cord (unmodified in this option) into it and run the extension cord to the video camera. - It is a $5 part and I'd need add the 1/4" plug on one end and a 1/4 inch jack on the other end. - Looks hard to do. If I can have some help figuring how to wire the audio transformer, then just cutting into the extension cord (it must have two conductors in it) I'd probably run conductor #1 into side of transformer without center-tap and connect other cut end of conductor #1 to other end of that transformer. I'd probably connect one end of conductor #2 to 1 end of the center-tapped side and the other end of conductor #2 to the center tap. - After all that, I could just wrap the transformer wires in the cut area with electrical tape - or pot with RTV or Shoe Goo, etc. - Which conductor in the above narrative/guess would be conductor #1? The one that connects to the tip or body of the plug? These are molded cable ends so I can't unscrew to see wire attachments/colors to the plugs. Appreciate any tips. David Carter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Phil Collins" <philc1(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: OAT Sensor question
Date: Dec 04, 2003
I'm finishing the wiring on my Long-ez. I have dual (Jeff Rose) electronic ignitionI and have installed the optional advance meter, which is basically an voltmeter requiring 10 millivolts per degree of advance. I just found a temperature sensor (National Semiconductor LM34) with an output of 10 milivolts per degree fahrenheit. It looks rather simple to use the same device to show either degrees of advance or OAT. I have two questions that someone in the group may be able to help with. 1) To provide both positive and negative temperatures, the device requires Vs (5-30 volts DC), ground, AND -Vs. I'm not sure how to come up with negative voltage. In an electronic world I would envision a power supply that provides both positive and negative voltages of varying values, but I don't have anything like that in the Long-ez. Whats the simplest way to make the sensor happy so it can tell me how cold my toes are? 2) How sensitive are millivolt level signals to connectivity issues. If I add a switch to the circuit to select either OAT or Advance, will I distort the readings? Would it be feasible to have multiple switched (rotary switch) temp sensors for more comprehensive monitoring? It would be desirable to add another function to the advance gauge and get more use from the (admittedly small) panel real estate it occupies. Any suggestions would be welcome. Phil IO-360 Long-ez Chicagoland ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
See below: David Carter wrote: >Options: >1. I can do the 1973 version: Buy a small center tapped "audio output >transformer" (RS p/n 273-1380: 1000 ohms and 8 ohms with center tap on the >1000 ohm side?), then cut my 6' RS extension cord somewhere convenient, >strip the cut ends and solder end(s) coming from aircraft audio jack to the >end of the ??? > If you want to do this, and assuming that the signal level is approximately twice what you need, you would connect the audio output across the two outside winding taps (the two ends) and the audio input across the center tap and the outside tap that has the ground/common wire of the input audio. More specifically, cut into your extension cord (which I am assuming is a shielded audio cable). Connect the outside conductor (the shield wire) to one of the outside taps of the transformer. Connect the inside conductor coming from the audio out to the opposite outside tap and the inside conductor from the audio into the video camera to the center tap. Insulate and seal with goop (or whatever) and you are done. >2. While shopping at Radio Shack today, I saw a TV thing: "300 ohm to 75 >ohm matching adapter". I'm assuming it has a transformer inside the neat >fat cable housing. > This won't work at all. The impedances specified are measured at TV signal frequencies (100s of MHz). The transformer would look like a dead short at audio frequencies. > - Which conductor in the above narrative/guess would be conductor #1? >The one that connects to the tip or body of the plug? These are molded >cable ends so I can't unscrew to see wire attachments/colors to the plugs. > If you have an ohmmeter (recommended) you could just measure, but see above. If I were doing this, I wouldn't bother with the transformer. I would just use a resistor or a potentiometer (start with a 10K pot) in series with the video camera input. That is, if you cut the cable as above, just connect each end of the center conductor to each end of the resistor (or connect the audio output center conductor to one end of the pot and the shield to the other end and the video camera center conductor to the center tap of the pot with the shield to the other shield). If you use the pot, just turn it to whatever setting gives you good results. If you turn the pot all the way one way you have essentially the same situation as if it wasn't there, if you turn it all the way the other way, you will get no output - somewhere in between you will get the output you need. If you have other questions or if this is not clear, ask away... Dick Tasker, 90573 Fuselage, finishing kit has arrived! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: NiMH batteries
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe(at)delphi.com>
A little off aircraft electronics, but while on the topic of NiMH batteries, where would you find the best rechargeable AA pencell type NiMH batteries? The ones in the camera stores don't list a mah rating. I'm heading over to the Wright reenactment and I don't want to worry about missing something because of the batteries in my digital camera. Thanks, Dave **************************************************************************************** Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. **************************************************************************************** ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
Date: Dec 04, 2003
I'll answer my own e-mail question to both the Aeroelec & RV-lists re how to wire the "audio out" transformer: If I remember correctly, there will be two wires in my extension cord - one connected to tip of plug and other to body of plug. - Cut the ext cord and, working with cut end still connected to the 1/4" plug that goes into Y adapter - solder both wires to the non-center-tapped side of transformer. - Now, take the other cut end of ext cord and connect its two wires to the other side of the transformer - one wire to an end, other wire to the center tap. Now the audio signal going into the video camera will be 1/2 as high an amplitude as before. Sound correct? David ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera > > This is going to both the Aeroelectric and RV-lists, in hopes of increasing > probability of someone being able to help with this issue. > > I want to put cockpit audio into my video camera when doing test flying to > get pictures of instruments & audio comments I make - should greatly reduce > "head down in cockpit" time taking notes and greatly increase amount of > instrument reading data collected. > > I went to Radio Shack and bought a Y adapter (p/n 274-892) with single male > plug that goes into the "audio out" plug on instrument panel. The Y adapter > has two female holes (jacks?) into which the headset audio plug goes and > also a 6' long extension cord with 1/4 male plug that goes into other hole > of Y adapter, with its other end (1/8 male) plugged into video camera's > audio jack. > > When I replay cockpit recordings, the audio of the video camera is > distorted - amplitude too high coming out of intercom to be compatible with > video recorder. > - Had same problem in F-100 30 years ago when trying to record > air-to-air combat audio. Now I remember why my Avionics guys put a small > (1" or less) centertap "audio transformer" into a little box (adapter) that > cut the signal amplitude in half - worked fine. > > Options: > 1. I can do the 1973 version: Buy a small centertapped "audio output > transformer" (RS p/n 273-1380: 1000 ohms and 8 ohms with center tap on the > 1000 ohm side?), then cut my 6' RS extension cord somewhere convenient, > strip the cut ends and solder end(s) coming from aircraft audio jack to the > end of the ??? > -- I can't even visualize what I have to connect. Looks like the > raw (too big) audio signal would have to go into one end of the winding that > is NOT center-tapped and then have the other end of that winding go ____???. > Then solder the other end of cord (that goes into the video camera) to > center tap (which should have 1/2 audo amplitude of that coming into this > transformer-adapter). > > 2. While shopping at Radio Shack today, I saw a TV thing: "300 ohm to 75 > ohm matching adapter". I'm assuming it has a transformer inside the neat > fat cable housing. Problem: It has two U connectors on one end that > obviously go onto two screws for antenna input; other end looks like a > center conductor TV cable end. That is a 4 to 1 change of ohms (300 to 75 > or vice versa) - is it done with a transformer? If so, I could have a > neater adapter by modifying that gadget to have a 1/4" male plug on one end > and a 1/4" female jack on other: I'd then plug it into the Y adapter, then > plug the 6' extension cord (unmodified in this option) into it and run the > extension cord to the video camera. > - It is a $5 part and I'd need add the 1/4" plug on one end and a 1/4 > inch jack on the other end. > - Looks hard to do. > > If I can have some help figuring how to wire the audio transformer, then > just cutting into the extension cord (it must have two conductors in it) I'd > probably run conductor #1 into side of transformer without center-tap and > connect other cut end of conductor #1 to other end of that transformer. I'd > probably connect one end of conductor #2 to 1 end of the center-tapped side > and the other end of conductor #2 to the center tap. > - After all that, I could just wrap the transformer wires in the cut > area with electrical tape - or pot with RTV or Shoe Goo, etc. > - Which conductor in the above narrative/guess would be conductor #1? > The one that connects to the tip or body of the plug? These are molded > cable ends so I can't unscrew to see wire attachments/colors to the plugs. > > Appreciate any tips. > > David Carter > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Sounds like the desire "simple"/"elegant" solution - no cutting and soldering. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Boyd Braem" <bcbraem(at)comcast.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera > --> RV-List message posted by: Boyd Braem > > Dave-- > > What I did was get a "lapel" mike from RS and ran it in under one of > the David Clark headsets (earcups)--so that anything over the radio or > intercom would be recorded--good S/N and the headset blocked a lot of > the the engine noise out. So, you could talk into your mike and > narrate the filming, as needed. Works great as long as you don't get a > "chatty" Controller on Flight Following, yeah, that'll be the > day--wouldn't you like to tell one, just once--"Shut the f*ck up!"? > > Boyd. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "AI Nut" <ainut(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: NiMH batteries
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Sam's has a set of 8 with charger for about $20. AI Nut ----- Original Message ----- From: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe(at)delphi.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: NiMH batteries > > > A little off aircraft electronics, but while on the topic of NiMH > batteries, where would you find the best rechargeable AA pencell type > NiMH batteries? The ones in the camera stores don't list a mah rating. > > I'm heading over to the Wright reenactment and I don't want to worry > about missing something because of the batteries in my digital camera. > > Thanks, > > Dave > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon and Marge" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com>
Subject: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
Date: Dec 04, 2003
-----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Carter Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera David: Buy a cable to fit the camera. Buy an aircraft headset/microphone plug Buy a 1000 ohm 1/4watt resistor Cut the camera cable to the desired length, strip and solder the resistor into the proper lead. Apply shrink tube to the work area, secure leads to plug and thread the plug cover back onto the plug. Gordon Comfort N363GC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dawson, Bill" <Bill.Dawson(at)pepperdine.edu>
Subject: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
Date: Dec 04, 2003
If you have a pro audio friend you could borrow a direct box but that's WAY overkill. Radio Shack sells an attenuating audio cable with 1/8 inch mini plugs on each end. You will also need a 1/8 to 1/4 inch adapter. I used this cable to record a show for a radio station and it worked great. You could cut off a 1/8 plug and replace it with a 1/4 but I don't know which plug contains the resistor. RS Part #42-2152a Bill -----Original Message----- From: Gordon and Marge [mailto:gcomfo(at)tc3net.com] Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Carter Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera David: Buy a cable to fit the camera. Buy an aircraft headset/microphone plug Buy a 1000 ohm 1/4watt resistor Cut the camera cable to the desired length, strip and solder the resistor into the proper lead. Apply shrink tube to the work area, secure leads to plug and thread the plug cover back onto the plug. Gordon Comfort N363GC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 04, 2003
From: Jim Corner <jcorner(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
David A few years ago I had the same problem and ended up purchasing a radio shack device that took "line out" signal to mic level signals. It is a monoral device that plugs directly into my camera "audio in" jack. the only drawback is that it is a RCA connector on the opposite end. I just made an adapter cord with a headset plug-in on one end and an RCA plug on the other. Works great on my Sony PC5. Don't know if they are still available or not. Its about 2 1/2" long including the RCA female plug on one end and the 1/8 plug on the other......good luck. Jim Corner I'll answer my own e-mail question to both the Aeroelec & RV-lists re how to wire the "audio out" transformer: If I remember correctly, there will be two wires in my extension cord - one connected to tip of plug and other to body of plug. - Cut the ext cord and, working with cut end still connected to the 1/4" plug that goes into Y adapter - solder both wires to the non-center-tapped side of transformer. - Now, take the other cut end of ext cord and connect its two wires to the other side of the transformer - one wire to an end, other wire to the center tap. Now the audio signal going into the video camera will be 1/2 as high an amplitude as before. Sound correct? David ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera > > This is going to both the Aeroelectric and RV-lists, in hopes of increasing > probability of someone being able to help with this issue. > > I want to put cockpit audio into my video camera when doing test flying to > get pictures of instruments & audio comments I make - should greatly reduce > "head down in cockpit" time taking notes and greatly increase amount of > instrument reading data collected. > > I went to Radio Shack and bought a Y adapter (p/n 274-892) with single male > plug that goes into the "audio out" plug on instrument panel. The Y adapter > has two female holes (jacks?) into which the headset audio plug goes and > also a 6' long extension cord with 1/4 male plug that goes into other hole > of Y adapter, with its other end (1/8 male) plugged into video camera's > audio jack. > > When I replay cockpit recordings, the audio of the video camera is > distorted - amplitude too high coming out of intercom to be compatible with > video recorder. > - Had same problem in F-100 30 years ago when trying to record > air-to-air combat audio. Now I remember why my Avionics guys put a small > (1" or less) centertap "audio transformer" into a little box (adapter) that > cut the signal amplitude in half - worked fine. > > Options: > 1. I can do the 1973 version: Buy a small centertapped "audio output > transformer" (RS p/n 273-1380: 1000 ohms and 8 ohms with center tap on the > 1000 ohm side?), then cut my 6' RS extension cord somewhere convenient, > strip the cut ends and solder end(s) coming from aircraft audio jack to the > end of the ??? > -- I can't even visualize what I have to connect. Looks like the > raw (too big) audio signal would have to go into one end of the winding that > is NOT center-tapped and then have the other end of that winding go ____???. > Then solder the other end of cord (that goes into the video camera) to > center tap (which should have 1/2 audo amplitude of that coming into this > transformer-adapter). > > 2. While shopping at Radio Shack today, I saw a TV thing: "300 ohm to 75 > ohm matching adapter". I'm assuming it has a transformer inside the neat > fat cable housing. Problem: It has two U connectors on one end that > obviously go onto two screws for antenna input; other end looks like a > center conductor TV cable end. That is a 4 to 1 change of ohms (300 to 75 > or vice versa) - is it done with a transformer? If so, I could have a > neater adapter by modifying that gadget to have a 1/4" male plug on one end > and a 1/4" female jack on other: I'd then plug it into the Y adapter, then > plug the 6' extension cord (unmodified in this option) into it and run the > extension cord to the video camera. > - It is a $5 part and I'd need add the 1/4" plug on one end and a 1/4 > inch jack on the other end. > - Looks hard to do. > > If I can have some help figuring how to wire the audio transformer, then > just cutting into the extension cord (it must have two conductors in it) I'd > probably run conductor #1 into side of transformer without center-tap and > connect other cut end of conductor #1 to other end of that transformer. I'd > probably connect one end of conductor #2 to 1 end of the center-tapped side > and the other end of conductor #2 to the center tap. > - After all that, I could just wrap the transformer wires in the cut > area with electrical tape - or pot with RTV or Shoe Goo, etc. > - Which conductor in the above narrative/guess would be conductor #1? > The one that connects to the tip or body of the plug? These are molded > cable ends so I can't unscrew to see wire attachments/colors to the plugs. > > Appreciate any tips. > > David Carter > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: George Braly <gwbraly(at)gami.com>
Subject: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
Date: Dec 04, 2003
The best way to get audio into a video camera in flight - - Use a good noise canceling headset. Use a good electret microphone that is placed INSIDE the ear piece of the noise canceling headset. Run the microphone to the video camera. That way - - you get all the audio - - and just enough background engine noise for "realism". Works very very well for the training video's that we make. George -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of David Carter Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera I'll answer my own e-mail question to both the Aeroelec & RV-lists re how to wire the "audio out" transformer: If I remember correctly, there will be two wires in my extension cord - one connected to tip of plug and other to body of plug. - Cut the ext cord and, working with cut end still connected to the 1/4" plug that goes into Y adapter - solder both wires to the non-center-tapped side of transformer. - Now, take the other cut end of ext cord and connect its two wires to the other side of the transformer - one wire to an end, other wire to the center tap. Now the audio signal going into the video camera will be 1/2 as high an amplitude as before. Sound correct? David ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera > > This is going to both the Aeroelectric and RV-lists, in hopes of increasing > probability of someone being able to help with this issue. > > I want to put cockpit audio into my video camera when doing test flying to > get pictures of instruments & audio comments I make - should greatly reduce > "head down in cockpit" time taking notes and greatly increase amount of > instrument reading data collected. > > I went to Radio Shack and bought a Y adapter (p/n 274-892) with single male > plug that goes into the "audio out" plug on instrument panel. The Y adapter > has two female holes (jacks?) into which the headset audio plug goes and > also a 6' long extension cord with 1/4 male plug that goes into other hole > of Y adapter, with its other end (1/8 male) plugged into video camera's > audio jack. > > When I replay cockpit recordings, the audio of the video camera is > distorted - amplitude too high coming out of intercom to be compatible with > video recorder. > - Had same problem in F-100 30 years ago when trying to record > air-to-air combat audio. Now I remember why my Avionics guys put a small > (1" or less) centertap "audio transformer" into a little box (adapter) that > cut the signal amplitude in half - worked fine. > > Options: > 1. I can do the 1973 version: Buy a small centertapped "audio output > transformer" (RS p/n 273-1380: 1000 ohms and 8 ohms with center tap on the > 1000 ohm side?), then cut my 6' RS extension cord somewhere convenient, > strip the cut ends and solder end(s) coming from aircraft audio jack to the > end of the ??? > -- I can't even visualize what I have to connect. Looks like the > raw (too big) audio signal would have to go into one end of the winding that > is NOT center-tapped and then have the other end of that winding go ____???. > Then solder the other end of cord (that goes into the video camera) to > center tap (which should have 1/2 audo amplitude of that coming into this > transformer-adapter). > > 2. While shopping at Radio Shack today, I saw a TV thing: "300 ohm to 75 > ohm matching adapter". I'm assuming it has a transformer inside the neat > fat cable housing. Problem: It has two U connectors on one end that > obviously go onto two screws for antenna input; other end looks like a > center conductor TV cable end. That is a 4 to 1 change of ohms (300 to 75 > or vice versa) - is it done with a transformer? If so, I could have a > neater adapter by modifying that gadget to have a 1/4" male plug on one end > and a 1/4" female jack on other: I'd then plug it into the Y adapter, then > plug the 6' extension cord (unmodified in this option) into it and run the > extension cord to the video camera. > - It is a $5 part and I'd need add the 1/4" plug on one end and a 1/4 > inch jack on the other end. > - Looks hard to do. > > If I can have some help figuring how to wire the audio transformer, then > just cutting into the extension cord (it must have two conductors in it) I'd > probably run conductor #1 into side of transformer without center-tap and > connect other cut end of conductor #1 to other end of that transformer. I'd > probably connect one end of conductor #2 to 1 end of the center-tapped side > and the other end of conductor #2 to the center tap. > - After all that, I could just wrap the transformer wires in the cut > area with electrical tape - or pot with RTV or Shoe Goo, etc. > - Which conductor in the above narrative/guess would be conductor #1? > The one that connects to the tip or body of the plug? These are molded > cable ends so I can't unscrew to see wire attachments/colors to the plugs. > > Appreciate any tips. > > David Carter > > --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Hackney" <lhackney(at)rglobal.net>
Subject: Turn Coord
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Robert, I was at your seminar in Watsonville last month. I'd mentioned that I had a Falcon turn coordinator and I'd read that they had a reputation for producing radio noise. You said I should get some roof flashing and wrap around it 2 or 3 times to control the noise. I'm just wondering if there's anything lighter, simpler that would work? How about aluminum foil? Or some kind of duct insulation or even sound proofing material? Thanks, Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Hackney" <lhackney(at)rglobal.net>
Subject: Cooling fan
Date: Dec 04, 2003
Robert, Could you recommend a cheaper avionics cooling fan than the one's in the Spruce catalog? Prices range from $129 up to $272? Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 05, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: NiMH batteries
> > > >A little off aircraft electronics, but while on the topic of NiMH >batteries, where would you find the best rechargeable AA pencell type >NiMH batteries? The ones in the camera stores don't list a mah rating. > >I'm heading over to the Wright reenactment and I don't want to worry >about missing something because of the batteries in my digital camera. Check out http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=45096&item=3062108120 I've got 32 of these cells coming in for specific job. I'll be running some capacity tests on them. If they're even close to 2200 maH, these are a deal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HereBostonTim(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 05, 2003
Subject: Re: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
FUCK OFF AND DIE... ONE MORE E-MAIL TO ME AND YOU WILL BE ARRESTED. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <marknlisa(at)hometel.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
Date: Dec 05, 2003
Dave, Actually, it's even simpler than that. Take a standard walkman-style headphone, the type that don't have a frame and are made to plug directly into your ear. Plug the jack into the audio input on your camera, then put the speakers inside the headphone cups on your head (don't put them in your ears, just lay them inside the headset cup). Sounds weird, but it works like a charm -- the camera will "hear" everything you do. Mark --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Home Telephone Company's Web-Based Email interface. http://webmail.hometel.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net>
Subject: Re: NiMH batteries
Date: Dec 05, 2003
MAHA has the best rechargeable cells, both NiMh and NiCad... Just do a search on the name... BTW, NiMh is not always the best choice for a battery... They have a significantly faster self discharge rate than NiCad... If the photo gear is to sit for weeks between useage and recharge sessions you will be better off with NiCad, compared to NiMh... However, NiMh is definitely better when the cells are being used often, only partially discharged, and then recharged... They do not develop a discharge memory like NiCad does... But if they sit for a few weeks they will be flat just when you want them... The other option, is that when useage is sporadic, then alakline or lithium, non rechargeables may be the best choice... Their capacity exceeds that of rechargeables, their operational cost is far less, and when they are done you simply toss them and put in new ones... I had NiCad in all my cameras, head sets, walkie talkies, etc... When NiMh came out I jumped into it big time buying hundred of dollars worth of cells, chargers, etc... A big mistake - keeping the backup batteries in my GPS units, hand radios, Nikon F5, etc., charged and ready to go is a major chore due to the rapid self discharge of NiMh... As those cells are now finally beginning to wear out I am going back to NiCad for uses where I 'need' a rechargeable... But more than that, I am changing back to alkaline cells... I get them at the dollar store, flea markets, etc., anywhere I can get them cheap and still fresh dated... I keep a supply on hand in the plane, car, camera bag, etc., and simply toss the run down cells and install fresh... The old days may have been better, after all... Denny The real advantage of Lithium non rechargeables is the zero self discharge rate... These batteries can sit for many years waiting to be used and when the time comes they are ready to go ... Of course, that advantage costs more, but their ah capacity exceeds any other cell type and if your equipment has a heavy current draw and ahving to shut down to change batteries is a no-no they may be the best bang for the buck... ----- Original Message ----- From: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe(at)delphi.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: NiMH batteries > > > A little off aircraft electronics, but while on the topic of NiMH > batteries, where would you find the best rechargeable AA pencell type > NiMH batteries? The ones in the camera stores don't list a mah rating. > > I'm heading over to the Wright reenactment and I don't want to worry > about missing something because of the batteries in my digital camera. > > Thanks, > > Dave > > **************************************************************************** ************ > > Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. > > **************************************************************************** ************ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com>
Subject: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
Date: Dec 05, 2003
"HereBostonTim" (and anyone that gets "unwanted" messages and is wondering what is going on), It looks like someone (a friend ... or enemy of yours) has "subscribed" you to this email list. They had to know your email address. So that is the person to whom you may want to direct your frustration. Now, to get "UNSUBSCRIBED" to these messages, follow the instructions that are listed at the BOTTOM of each message. I have cut and pasted the relevant URL that you should click and follow. It is a straightforward process. You will need to "unsubscribe" to each mailing list that your "friend" has subscribed you to. Have a nice day. James ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 05, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
> >FUCK OFF AND DIE... >ONE MORE E-MAIL TO ME AND YOU WILL BE ARRESTED. Sorry my foul-mouthed friend, but it seems that one more e-mail is in order. For you to have received any e-mail from this list service, you or someone using your computer had to SIGN UP for it at http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Soooo . . . if you will simply click the link above and then enter your e-mail address in the space provided followed by checking the appropriate box to UNSUBSCRIBE to any and all lists from this service, you will be relieved of hearing from any of us again. In the mean time, if you're real desire is to have someone arrested, have them contact me directly at 6936 Bainbridge, Wichita, KS and I'll go quietly if indeed that is their mission. But given that we won the last Big One, I believe we're still relatively free from such off-hand action by those with the power to infringe upon the liberty of citizens. May I further suggest that you invest in a simple mail filter program that will have more benefits to your life than a bucket of Vallium . . . I use Mail Washer pro from: http://www.firetrust.com/products/mailwasherpro/ It takes me seconds before opening the mail to dump 95% of the e-mail arriving in my box and to black-list offenders so that I don't need to make a keep/dump decision on them in the future. It also allows one to maintain a friends list that will always accept e-mail from certain addresses. One more potty-mouth response from you sir will get you on my blacklist. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( A beginning of the end is marked by ) ( replacement of experience and common ) ( sense with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 05, 2003
From: f1rocket(at)telus.net
Subject: Re: Cockpit "Audio out" to videocamera
I have to defend this Tim fellow. A freind of mine sent me the same e-mail at home, and what happened was he had one of those nasty worms. So please ignore any e-mails like this, I'm sure he didn't really send it, as it is worded exactly like the one I received. Jeff Quoting "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" : > > > > > >FUCK OFF AND DIE... > >ONE MORE E-MAIL TO ME AND YOU WILL BE ARRESTED. > > Sorry my foul-mouthed friend, but it seems that one > more e-mail is in order. For you to have received any > e-mail from this list service, you or someone using > your computer had to SIGN UP for it at > http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ > > Soooo . . . if you will simply click the link above > and then enter your e-mail address in the space > provided followed by checking the appropriate box > to UNSUBSCRIBE to any and all lists from this service, > you will be relieved of hearing from any of us again. > > In the mean time, if you're real desire is to have > someone arrested, have them contact me directly at > 6936 Bainbridge, Wichita, KS and I'll go quietly > if indeed that is their mission. But given that > we won the last Big One, I believe we're still > relatively free from such off-hand action by those > with the power to infringe upon the liberty of > citizens. > > May I further suggest that you invest in a simple > mail filter program that will have more benefits > to your life than a bucket of Vallium . . . I use > Mail Washer pro from: > > http://www.firetrust.com/products/mailwasherpro/


November 25, 2003 - December 05, 2003

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-cr