AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ey
October 30, 2005 - November 17, 2005
>Elmore City, OK
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan Hooks" <bryanhooks(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Bluetooth in the cockpit |
I've been considering using a GPS / XM receiver with Bluetooth in my
RV7A, but have a couple nagging questions.
(1) In many aircraft flight manuals, there are admonitions against
using non-approved transmitting devices in the aircraft. According to
the warnings - these devices can cause unanticipated and unwanted things
to happen to navigation systems. Does anyone know if Bluetooth devices
can cause such a thing?
(2) Is the Bluetooth connection as reliable as having things hardwired
together?
Thanks in advance,
Bryan Hooks
RV7A slow-build
Knoxville, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)telepath.com> |
> My aircraft will already have overvoltage protection, so
> can't I just run 12 volts straight through my firewire cable from a
> 1.0 amp fuse?
What Mr. Nuckolls said.......
If you want to connect direct, feel free...it's your equipment. One
more link....
http://www.drewperry.co.uk/iPod/index.php?page=batterypack
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jon Goguen <jon.goguen(at)umassmed.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Belt replacement (was Alternator Speed) |
Gilles,
Google MSC Industrial Supply www1.mscdirect.com/ They accept small
credit card orders and ship very quickly. I often receive things in a
day without paying extra postage.
Jon
Jon Goguen
jon.goguen(at)umassmed.edu
Central Massachusetts
Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved)
Complete except for electrics and avionics
"Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind"
--Woody Allen
On Oct 30, 2005, at 2:44 AM, Gilles Tatry wrote:
>
>
> Anyone knows where to order powertwist belt on line?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Belt replacement (was Alternator Speed)
>
>
>>
>>
>> Hi again Terry,
>>
>> I found this link to a site that seems to have some good information
>> re
>> multilink type vee belts.
>>
>> http://www.fennerindustrial.com/products/powertwist_ind.html
>>
>> I hope this helps,
>>
>> Jim in Kelowna
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Perl <ed.perl(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Panasonic Batterries |
I see that Panasonic makes two batteries that will fit the PC680 Box
(7.13x2.99x6.58).
A 17 Ah and a 20 Ah. Are these similar to the odyssey 680.
And which would you use.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bluetooth in the cockpit |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Bryan -
I have flown my tablet pc with a Weather Worx bluetooth receiver in a
C-182 and an RV-6A. There were no problems with either. WE are installing
it in our Lancair ES back on the hatshelf. There seems to be one problem
with bluetooth - at least with the weather worx receiver: it can break
lock and the only reilable way to get it back for our tablet-wxworx lashup
is to recycle it. WE installed an on-off switch where we can get to it
from the pilot's seat for this purpose. It also controls the rear seat
power jack, as well as the power jack near the hatshelf.
I like the bluetooth because it reduces the number of wires (spaghetti) in
the cockpit that plug into the tablet. We also have a blue tooth gps
antenna/receiver and that leaves only the power wire for the tablet. I
like to take the tablet and the gps on road trips, as well as flights.
Hope this helps.
John Schroeder
Lancair ES 95%/95%
> (1) In many aircraft flight manuals, there are admonitions against
> using non-approved transmitting devices in the aircraft. According to
> the warnings - these devices can cause unanticipated and unwanted things
> to happen to navigation systems. Does anyone know if Bluetooth devices
> can cause such a thing?
>
> (2) Is the Bluetooth connection as reliable as having things hardwired
> together?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Panasonic Batterries |
>
>I see that Panasonic makes two batteries that will fit the PC680 Box
>(7.13x2.99x6.58).
>
>A 17 Ah and a 20 Ah. Are these similar to the odyssey 680.
>And which would you use.
I'm not the only difference I can see in the spec
sheets is a lower internal resistance for the 20 a.h.
device . . . and its slightly higher capacity. I can
only guess that the 20 a.h. device has more and thinner
plates which makes it better for cranking but may have
adverse impact on deep-cycle life. If your major interest
is in cranking ability, I'd go for the 20 a.h. product.
In the long run, if you're going to do yearly changeout
as a preventative maintenance practice, either battery
would be fine so in this case, go for the least expensive.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bluetooth in the cockpit |
>
>
>I've been considering using a GPS / XM receiver with Bluetooth in my
>RV7A, but have a couple nagging questions.
>
>(1) In many aircraft flight manuals, there are admonitions against
>using non-approved transmitting devices in the aircraft. According to
>the warnings - these devices can cause unanticipated and unwanted things
>to happen to navigation systems. Does anyone know if Bluetooth devices
>can cause such a thing?
>
>(2) Is the Bluetooth connection as reliable as having things hardwired
>together?
(1) Bluetooth is stationed in the 2.5 GHz unlicensed range for
low power communications. I can deduce no good reason to be
concerned about interference TO your aircraft accessories.
It's more likely that the Bluetooth stuff will barf when you
transmit on a comm radio.
(2) Cords and connectors take beating in the cockpit. I'd go
for anything to reduce wires and connectors any day.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Freeman <flyeyes(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bluetooth in the cockpit |
FYI there is a known issue with the WxWorx-supplied power supply in
composite aircraft. Comm transmissions will instantly and repeatably
blow the fuse in the power supply.
This was a chronic issue in Cirrus SR22s, and they kept blaming the
electrical system of the Cirrus until this was discovered. Rolling
your own power supply or using one of the Radio Shack adjustable
power supplies is a permanent fix.
James Freeman
On Oct 30, 2005, at 3:17 PM, John Schroeder wrote:
>
> I have flown my tablet pc with a Weather Worx bluetooth receiver in a
> C-182 and an RV-6A. There were no problems with either. WE are
> installing
> it in our Lancair ES back on the hatshelf.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl_Schroeder <Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Panasonic Batterries |
Ed Perl wrote:
>I see that Panasonic makes two batteries that will fit the PC680 Box
>(7.13x2.99x6.58).
>
>A 17 Ah and a 20 Ah. Are these similar to the odyssey 680.
>And which would you use.
>
>
>
I replaced my 17AH Panasonic with a 680 and would not go back.. MUCH
better cranking power.
The Panasonic in question may be a different model.... I doubt that mine
was intended for starting engines... Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Panasonic Batterries |
In a message dated 10/30/2005 2:37:27 PM Central Standard Time,
ed.perl(at)sympatico.ca writes:
A 17 Ah and a 20 Ah. Are these similar to the odyssey 680.
And which would you use.
>>>
I'm on my second 20 Ah batt (18 month change-out) and it's worked fine for
250 hrs on my 150 hp Lyc using a non-reduction drive Prestolite boat anchor
starter. I always pre-heat below about 35 degrees and have never had a problem
with cranking...
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bluetooth in the cockpit |
Hi all,
Well I can confirm this issue, but until now I didn't know why, and yes, I
did solve it by rolling my own powersupply.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | too small wire in big solder cups . . . |
Bob - I'm soldering 8AWG wire into solder cups for 4 AWG wire. When I put
the wire in and fill it with solder when it cools the solder joint has a
small hole where the flux comes out (using rosin core solder) and when I
use solid wire solder the joint is not blent together with the wire. There
is also excessive wicking and the joint is very cloudy not shiney. What do
you recommend? Your expertise will be greatly appreciated.
By using solder to fill the gaps for the too-small wire, you'll
have a compromised joint especially mechanically. Do you
have access to a lathe? I'd cut some step up adapters from
brass rod stock. Little hole in end for 8AWG and cut the
i.d. to fit your solder cups with about .002" radial
clearance for solder to wick in.
Then use 63/37 or 60/40 electronic solder to make up the
joints. I've done this many times with great results.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Master Relay Mount |
>
>They will not slip off. It may be possible to cut them off. I believe that
>they are the same product other than boots. I'll call B&C in the morning and
>ask why they switched to the boots. There is no continuity between any
>terminal and the case.
Very good. That's good data to know.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Welding Cable AWG 2 |
Listers
Just a thought.
Would the cable from high quality Jump Start leads be suitable for the short
runs to the starter etc in place of welding cable.
Ther are good and bad jump start cables. I have a good one and would be a
good source if suitable.
Chris Byrne
Sydney
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: bob noffs
Subject: was ipod
hi all,
i have a garmin 12 handheld gps that i use to drive a palm pilot. cables that
give power to only the gps are a dime a dozen but i have found only one vendor
that has one that powers the palm too and it is $90. even palm corporate phone
offers no tech help for a question like''how many hours from the light source
in a palm before it burns out?'' anyway,,,, any advice on a source for a cable
like i am looking for, or another way to get power to the palm? thanks
bob noffs
p.s. how would i find a link to a ''hacker'' like is mentioned for ipod?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Panasonic Batterries |
I hold my battery in a Vans aircraft battery box kit. The Odyssey 680 is
what the box was designed to fit with. I used two 17ah Panasonic batteries
in the past and found each was just a tad to big to fit into the box. I got
them to fit but had to sand them to remove about 1/16th of inch on the
outside case. The panasonic cranked the O-360 just fine as does my Odyssey.
I change every year per Bob's recommendation.
Indiana Larry in Evansville, RV7 Tip Up SunSeeker
----- Original Message -----
From: <Fiveonepw(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panasonic Batterries
>
> In a message dated 10/30/2005 2:37:27 PM Central Standard Time,
> ed.perl(at)sympatico.ca writes:
> A 17 Ah and a 20 Ah. Are these similar to the odyssey 680.
> And which would you use.
>>>>
>
> I'm on my second 20 Ah batt (18 month change-out) and it's worked fine for
> 250 hrs on my 150 hp Lyc using a non-reduction drive Prestolite boat
> anchor
> starter. I always pre-heat below about 35 degrees and have never had a
> problem
> with cranking...
>
> Mark Phillips
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N5SL <nfivesl(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Battery Box) Panasonic Batterries |
FYI, I'm pretty sure the Vans battery box is the standard metal jacket that comes
with the PC-680MJ. MJ stands for "Metal Jacket." I purchased a PC-680 locally
and all they had was the "MJ" unit. I removed the metal jacket fromt the
battery (it was barely hot-glued in there), then drilled some large holes and
voila - I had a Vans battery box. See it here:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_15_05_Battery_Box3.JPG
Of course it's a perfect fit. This really says a lot for Vans and the way they
go the extra mile in finding the perfect application and improving it and offering
it for sale. I've started using them more and more for parts I can't find
anywhere else. If I hadn't stumbled upon the "MJ" battery I would have ordered
the Vans PC680 installation kit for $50. The extra cost for the "MJ" unit
was around $50.
Scott Laughlin
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/
LarryRobertHelming wrote:
I hold my battery in a Vans aircraft battery box kit. The Odyssey 680 is
what the box was designed to fit with. I used two 17ah Panasonic batteries
in the past and found each was just a tad to big to fit into the box. I got
them to fit but had to sand them to remove about 1/16th of inch on the
outside case.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Welding Cable AWG 2 |
>
>
>Listers
>
>Just a thought.
>Would the cable from high quality Jump Start leads be suitable for the short
>runs to the starter etc in place of welding cable.
>Ther are good and bad jump start cables. I have a good one and would be a
>good source if suitable.
Difficult to say. Welding cable is pretty much designed to
function in environmentally harsh situations. Jumper cables
spend 99.999% of their lives in the trunk of your car. Welding
cables are professional/industrial materials, jumper cables
consumer grade with insulation of variable pedigree. I've
purchased jumper cable sets to get the big clips. I cut off
the old wire (usually absurdly too small) and replace with
4 or 2AWG welding cable. Now THAT's a set of jumper cables.
Short answer is, I have no basis to recommend what you propose.
Welding supply stores will sell you wire by the foot for very
little cost.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: too small wire in big solder cups . . . |
>Bob - would the adapter be a sleeve designed for 8 awg wire where the wire
>would go
>all the way through or would it be designing a solder cup for 8 awg wire
>simply to fit into
>my 4 awg solder cup?
How deep are the 4AWG solder cups? You only need to grab a wire
over about two diameters of length but if the 8AWG went all the
way to the bottom of the 4AWG cup, it wouldn't hurt anything.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Master Relay Mount |
| From: | sjhdcl(at)kingston.net |
No. In fact it says "do not ground case" right on the relay.
Steve
RV7A
> If they're S701-1 contactors, then there should be no continuity
> from any terminal of the contactor to the case. You can check this
> out with an ohmmeter.
>
> Given that these critters run warm anyhow, I think I'd rather
> see them bolted down solid on metal feet to metal surfaces.
> I'm really mystified by the plastic booties. Would they slip
> off? If you took them off, would they then look like the old
> S701-1?
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-1l.jpg
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> |
| Subject: | Electronic Ignition Problem |
Listers,
I've got two ElectroAir Electronic Ignition Systems in my RV-6A. While
they operate fine once the engine has been started, I'm having a problem
starting the engine. The ignition systems seem to be in and out of a reset
mode during the time the starter is running.
My electrical system has two batteries. One battery is used exclusively
to power the ignitions during engine start. Both ignitions are enabled
during the time the starter is ON.
I've looked at the voltage supplies to both ignitions (with a sampling
oscilloscope) during the time the starter is running. I've also looked at
the timing sensor signal. Both traces showed no noise or abnormalities.
Hence the confusion.....
My question to the list is, has anyone else had this type of problem (with
dual electronic ignitions), and more specifically, with ElectroAir
Ignitions?
I'm about to give up on the dual Electronic ignitions, and put an impulse
Mag in just so the engine starts reliably.... I have ordered two "P" Mags.
Will I have the same problems with these??????
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
485 Hrs Second offender...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bluetooth in the cockpit |
James,
I've been blowing the WxWorx unit fuses in my RV-6A. Even sent the unit
back to WxWorx once because the Bluetooth part of the unit blew out. Your
message seems to imply that this is a know problem, but this is the first
time I've heard about it.
If I remember properly, the WxWorx unit uses a 9VDC input. What Radio
Shack supply do you recommend?
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
flyeyes(at)mac.com >
FYI there is a known issue with the WxWorx-supplied power supply in
composite aircraft. Comm transmissions will instantly and repeatably
blow the fuse in the power supply.
This was a chronic issue in Cirrus SR22s, and they kept blaming the
electrical system of the Cirrus until this was discovered. Rolling
your own power supply or using one of the Radio Shack adjustable
power supplies is a permanent fix.
James Freeman
On Oct 30, 2005, at 3:17 PM, John Schroeder wrote:
>
> I have flown my tablet pc with a Weather Worx bluetooth receiver in
a
> C-182 and an RV-6A. There were no problems with either. WE are
> installing
> it in our Lancair ES back on the hatshelf.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition Problem |
Fred, you may have other issues with the Pmags (I'm tracking down an intermittent
very brief stumbling in cruise, and adjusting the advance on my dual Pmag setup)
but one thing I can assure you is that your engine will start on the first
blade. The difference is remarkable.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic Ignition Problem
Listers,
I've got two ElectroAir Electronic Ignition Systems in my RV-6A. While
they operate fine once the engine has been started, I'm having a problem
starting the engine. The ignition systems seem to be in and out of a reset
mode during the time the starter is running.
My electrical system has two batteries. One battery is used exclusively
to power the ignitions during engine start. Both ignitions are enabled
during the time the starter is ON.
I've looked at the voltage supplies to both ignitions (with a sampling
oscilloscope) during the time the starter is running. I've also looked at
the timing sensor signal. Both traces showed no noise or abnormalities.
Hence the confusion.....
My question to the list is, has anyone else had this type of problem (with
dual electronic ignitions), and more specifically, with ElectroAir
Ignitions?
I'm about to give up on the dual Electronic ignitions, and put an impulse
Mag in just so the engine starts reliably.... I have ordered two "P" Mags.
Will I have the same problems with these??????
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
485 Hrs Second offender...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Suzuki Samuri Alternator |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Hi all,
Sdo I was out flying yesterdayand as I slowed the engine down in the
pattern the alternator warning light came on and the volts dropped to
12.5.
I managed to make it come back on line speeding the engine up again and
after that it came on and off occasionally.
I am assuming the intermittent nature of the issue indicates worn or
dirty brushes.
The alt is the Suzuki samuri internally regulated unit by Nippon Denso.
I am alittle reluctant to just go exchange the alternator if it is just
a brush issue...Unless of course one can't buy brushes for it.
But I would assume the alternaor itself generally sound.
Anybody any thoughts on this?
Thanks
Frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition Problem |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Fred,
This is interesting. Last things first.. If the P-Mag works as
adverstised, you won't have any problems.
Questions/comments embedded.
> UTPWR"
>
> Listers,
>
> I've got two ElectroAir Electronic Ignition Systems in my RV-6A. While
> they operate fine once the engine has been started, I'm having a problem
> starting the engine. The ignition systems seem to be in and out of a
> reset mode during the time the starter is running.
Is there a way to positively determine this (reset mode - info from the
manufacturer)?
> My electrical system has two batteries. One battery is used
> exclusively
> to power the ignitions during engine start. Both ignitions are enabled
> during the time the starter is ON.
> I've looked at the voltage supplies to both ignitions (with a sampling
> oscilloscope) during the time the starter is running. I've also looked
> at the timing sensor signal. Both traces showed no noise or
> abnormalities. Hence the confusion.....
(With respect,) Are you pretty confident in your abilities to use the
scope? Sometimes an analog VM is an easier tool to use to observe this
kind of problem with. What signal are you using to trigger the scope?
Where in the circuit are you taking the scope pictures (both v+ and
ground)? Is the probe point at the EI module, or back on some bus?
What kind of ground wire path is provided between the engine and the
batteries? I wonder if "ground bounce" might be getting you... Are the
EI's using the engine case as a grounding point? When you engage the
starter, the voltage of the crankcase will rise, maybe a lot, depending
one how big the ground strap is. The EI's will see that rise in ground
voltage as a drop in supply voltage.
> My question to the list is, has anyone else had this type of problem
> (with
> dual electronic ignitions), and more specifically, with ElectroAir
> Ignitions?
> I'm about to give up on the dual Electronic ignitions, and put an
> impulse
> Mag in just so the engine starts reliably.... I have ordered two "P"
> Mags. Will I have the same problems with these??????
>
> Fred Stucklen
> RV-6A N926RV
> 485 Hrs Second offender...
>
Regards,
Matt-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Suzuki Samuri Alternator |
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>Sdo I was out flying yesterdayand as I slowed the engine down in the
>pattern the alternator warning light came on and the volts dropped to
>12.5.
>
>I managed to make it come back on line speeding the engine up again and
>after that it came on and off occasionally.
>
>I am assuming the intermittent nature of the issue indicates worn or
>dirty brushes.
>
>The alt is the Suzuki samuri internally regulated unit by Nippon Denso.
>I am alittle reluctant to just go exchange the alternator if it is just
>a brush issue...Unless of course one can't buy brushes for it.
>
>But I would assume the alternaor itself generally sound.
>
>Anybody any thoughts on this?
If you just turn it in for a replacement, it's unlikely that
you'll ever know exactly what caused it to fail. If you DO
decide to trade it in, let me know what the core is worth
and I'll buy if from you for the core value plus UPS shipping
if you'll send it to me. Don't know when I'd get a chance to
dig into it but it would be interesting knowing exactly what
quit.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Suzuki Samuri Alternator |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Okey dokey I'll bear that in mind...I might just whip the back off
because if it is just a worn brush issue it should be obvious.
Thanks
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Suzuki Samuri Alternator
-->
(Corvallis)"
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>Sdo I was out flying yesterdayand as I slowed the engine down in the
>pattern the alternator warning light came on and the volts dropped to
>12.5.
>
>I managed to make it come back on line speeding the engine up again and
>after that it came on and off occasionally.
>
>I am assuming the intermittent nature of the issue indicates worn or
>dirty brushes.
>
>The alt is the Suzuki samuri internally regulated unit by Nippon Denso.
>I am alittle reluctant to just go exchange the alternator if it is just
>a brush issue...Unless of course one can't buy brushes for it.
>
>But I would assume the alternaor itself generally sound.
>
>Anybody any thoughts on this?
If you just turn it in for a replacement, it's unlikely that
you'll ever know exactly what caused it to fail. If you DO
decide to trade it in, let me know what the core is worth
and I'll buy if from you for the core value plus UPS shipping
if you'll send it to me. Don't know when I'd get a chance to
dig into it but it would be interesting knowing exactly what
quit.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition Problem |
Fred, the problem you are having is part of the reason my pre-install
research directed me to install one ElectroAir Ignition and one standard
impulse mag. Also, I did not to go through the expense of installing a
perfect 100% electric system (dual batteries and alternators, etc.) Some
EIs have a problem making strong spark if the battery is a bit low or the
starter is drawing too many of the available amps. My plane is started with
only the impulse mag on and then I turn on the EI after it is running. The
ElectroAir EI runs my engine very smoothly and I am happy with it. I am
happy with my starting also.
Indiana Larry
----- Original Message -----
>
>
> Listers,
>
> I've got two ElectroAir Electronic Ignition Systems in my RV-6A. While
> they operate fine once the engine has been started, I'm having a problem
> starting the engine. The ignition systems seem to be in and out of a reset
> mode during the time the starter is running.
> My electrical system has two batteries. One battery is used exclusively
> to power the ignitions during engine start. Both ignitions are enabled
> during the time the starter is ON.
> I've looked at the voltage supplies to both ignitions (with a sampling
> oscilloscope) during the time the starter is running. I've also looked at
> the timing sensor signal. Both traces showed no noise or abnormalities.
> Hence the confusion.....
> My question to the list is, has anyone else had this type of problem
> (with
> dual electronic ignitions), and more specifically, with ElectroAir
> Ignitions?
> I'm about to give up on the dual Electronic ignitions, and put an impulse
> Mag in just so the engine starts reliably.... I have ordered two "P" Mags.
> Will I have the same problems with these??????
>
> Fred Stucklen
> RV-6A N926RV
> 485 Hrs Second offender...
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "william rumburg" <lancair403(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Electronic Ignition Problem |
Fred -
I installed dual Electroair ignitions in my Lancair 320 ten years ago and
have never experienced a problem with them, with the exception of a few
rare instances of engine kickback during starting...NOT a good thing. To
the credit of my SkyTec starter, it has endured a dozen or more instances
of these kickbacks.
I spoke with the SkyTec's engineer/owner and he told me the problem was
that the Electroair ignition can lose timing during starting should the
voltage drop sufficiently low, as would be the case with a weak battery. I
remembered that the kickbacks had always occurred late in the life of the
three or four batteries I've gone through ( I know, three or four batteries
in ten years is excessive, but I now use a battery minder to maintain them
during periods of inactivity and they should now last their full five to
six year life)
I have an all electric installation (no vacuum pump) with Main and Backup
batteries. The Backup battery is charged from the Main bus, but is
otherwise isolated, unless I switch to backup power, in which case it's
dedicated to the electronic iginition. I now switch to backup power prior
to starting and the ignition receives full voltage. I've never experienced
a kickback problem since.
Bill Rumburg
N403WR
> I've got two ElectroAir Electronic Ignition Systems in my RV-6A. While
> they operate fine once the engine has been started, I'm having a problem
> starting the engine. The ignition systems seem to be in and out of a reset
> mode during the time the starter is running.
> My electrical system has two batteries. One battery is used exclusively
> to power the ignitions during engine start. Both ignitions are enabled
> during the time the starter is ON.
> I've looked at the voltage supplies to both ignitions (with a sampling
> oscilloscope) during the time the starter is running. I've also looked at
> the timing sensor signal. Both traces showed no noise or abnormalities.
> Hence the confusion.....
> My question to the list is, has anyone else had this type of problem
(with
> dual electronic ignitions), and more specifically, with ElectroAir
> Ignitions?
> I'm about to give up on the dual Electronic ignitions, and put an
impulse
> Mag in just so the engine starts reliably.... I have ordered two "P" Mags.
> Will I have the same problems with these??????
>
> Fred Stucklen
> RV-6A N926RV
> 485 Hrs Second offender...
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> |
| Subject: | Audio Amplifier Installation Questions |
Hi Bob,
I have a Q2 with a mono Flightcom 403mc intercom. I am connecting an MP3
playing to the music input and have a very low audio level (classic
discussion and have read the archives on it).
I have purchased a Velleman "Universal Stereo Pre-Amplifier" (kit K2572 -
manual at
http://www.velleman.be/downloads/0/Illustrated/Illustrated_assembly_manual_K
2572.pdf and have a couple of hookup questions.
1. The Left and Right outputs from my MP3 are not shielded. The above
kit includes a ground input for each shield. Should I just leave these
disconnected or connect ground to them?
2. Should I take both amplifier outputs (left/right) and wire them
together to the intercom (mono input) or use just one or the other (this
seems wrong)?
Thanks very much for the assistance.
Jon Finley
N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 470 Hrs. TT
Apple Valley, Minnesota
http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Audio Amplifier Installation Questions |
| From: | "Tom Brusehaver" <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com> |
Use like a 1K resistor on each high side, to
"mix" the signals into the intercom. Connect
the grounds together.
>
> Hi Bob,
>
>
> I have a Q2 with a mono Flightcom 403mc intercom. I am connecting an MP3
> playing to the music input and have a very low audio level (classic
> discussion and have read the archives on it).
>
>
> I have purchased a Velleman "Universal Stereo Pre-Amplifier" (kit K2572 -
> manual at
> http://www.velleman.be/downloads/0/Illustrated/Illustrated_assembly_manual_K
> 2572.pdf and have a couple of hookup questions.
>
>
> 1. The Left and Right outputs from my MP3 are not shielded. The
> above
> kit includes a ground input for each shield. Should I just leave these
> disconnected or connect ground to them?
> 2. Should I take both amplifier outputs (left/right) and wire them
> together to the intercom (mono input) or use just one or the other (this
> seems wrong)?
>
>
> Thanks very much for the assistance.
>
>
> Jon Finley
> N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 470 Hrs. TT
>
> Apple Valley, Minnesota
>
> http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Suzuki Samuri Alternator |
At 04:56 PM 10/31/2005, you wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>Sdo I was out flying yesterdayand as I slowed the engine down in the
>pattern the alternator warning light came on and the volts dropped to
>12.5.
>
>I managed to make it come back on line speeding the engine up again and
>after that it came on and off occasionally.
>
>I am assuming the intermittent nature of the issue indicates worn or
>dirty brushes.
>
>The alt is the Suzuki samuri internally regulated unit by Nippon Denso.
>I am alittle reluctant to just go exchange the alternator if it is just
>a brush issue...Unless of course one can't buy brushes for it.
>
>But I would assume the alternaor itself generally sound.
>
>Anybody any thoughts on this?
>
>Thanks
>
>Frank
Frank,
I would also check the rectifier diodes. You may have several diodes
which have failed open.
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Suzuki Samuri Alternator |
Charlie Kuss: How does anyone check the rectifier diodes? I ask this
because I have looked at a failed alternator (different type '77 honda
civic) and what I think might be the diodes seem to be soldered to the
surrounding casing material. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Indiana Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Kuss" <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Suzuki Samuri Alternator
>
>
> At 04:56 PM 10/31/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>Sdo I was out flying yesterdayand as I slowed the engine down in the
>>pattern the alternator warning light came on and the volts dropped to
>>12.5.
>>
>>I managed to make it come back on line speeding the engine up again and
>>after that it came on and off occasionally.
>>
>>I am assuming the intermittent nature of the issue indicates worn or
>>dirty brushes.
>>
>>The alt is the Suzuki samuri internally regulated unit by Nippon Denso.
>>I am alittle reluctant to just go exchange the alternator if it is just
>>a brush issue...Unless of course one can't buy brushes for it.
>>
>>But I would assume the alternaor itself generally sound.
>>
>>Anybody any thoughts on this?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Frank
>
> Frank,
> I would also check the rectifier diodes. You may have several diodes
> which have failed open.
> Charlie Kuss
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Starting problems |
Denis,
Thanks for the reply. I've considered the starting RPM issue, but haven't
yet investigated it. With the power source and sensor noise issues ruled
out, it's about the only issue left. As the weather gets colder, cranking
RPM should diminish a bit, and that may lead to a clue to an excessive RPM
issue during engine startup. Maybe I can borrow a B&C starter and try it
out. Or even an old Lycoming starter...
I too reverted to the REM37BY plugs. it solved the detonation issue I was
having with Auto plugs. The engine now runs very smooth.....
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
-----Original Message-----
From: Denis Walsh [mailto:denis.walsh(at)comcast.net]
Subject: Starting problems
Fred if I had a problem like this, you are the one I would ask!
I only have a single Electroair and use if for starting only every
once in a while. It has always worked fine. What I would check
first if I were you is the cranking RPM vs the "switchover rpm". I
don't remember what these numbers are but I remember noting (back
when I was running a sky-tec starter) that it was very close.
Ironically it was ok (slower cranking ) on cold days.
What I am trying to suggest is that the electorair may be switching
over to its advanced state during cranking before the engine has
caught. The other thing I have noted is that the EIS will sometimes
go into reset with a power interruption, but it sounds like you have
ruled that out?.
Since I have switched to B&C starter I have noted the cranking RPM is
down around 200 or less all the time.
This is a long shot but all I can think of. My engine is an O-360 so
it may be cranking a little slower than yours, too. But maybe that
was only your first 6a with he O-320?
Anyway good luck and hope this helps. Sorry if it is too basic.
BY the Way. I finally go the plug problems whipped by going to REM
37BY and fabricating sturdy lead ends using a kit from Champion as
suggested by the pmag folks.
Denis Walsh
On Oct 31, 2005, at 2:18 PM, Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR wrote:
> UTPWR"
>
> Listers,
>
> I've got two ElectroAir Electronic Ignition Systems in my RV-6A.
> While
> they operate fine once the engine has been started, I'm having a
> problem
> starting the engine. The ignition systems seem to be in and out of
> a reset
> mode during the time the starter is running.
> My electrical system has two batteries. One battery is used
> exclusively
> to power the ignitions during engine start. Both ignitions are enabled
> during the time the starter is ON.
> I've looked at the voltage supplies to both ignitions (with a
> sampling
> oscilloscope) during the time the starter is running. I've also
> looked at
> the timing sensor signal. Both traces showed no noise or
> abnormalities.
> Hence the confusion.....
> My question to the list is, has anyone else had this type of
> problem (with
> dual electronic ignitions), and more specifically, with ElectroAir
> Ignitions?
> I'm about to give up on the dual Electronic ignitions, and put an
> impulse
> Mag in just so the engine starts reliably.... I have ordered two
> "P" Mags.
> Will I have the same problems with these??????
>
> Fred Stucklen
> RV-6A N926RV
> 485 Hrs Second offender...
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Hard Starting |
Bruce,
I've also tried variations in the starting process, and hopefully, have
ruled out a fuel/mixture related issues. It's been suggested by others that
the ElectroAir Ignitions have a low RPM timing threshold that may be
exceeded by the capabilities of some starter RPM's, especially the SkyTec
starters. I need to investigate this further, but, with colder weather
coming here in New England, and hence, slower starting RPM's, I may get my
answer through usage.
It's interesting that you are having problems with the Rocky Mountain
Monitor sensing the RPM signal from the ElectroAir Ignitions. This signal is
a 10-12 Volt pulse that should be fairly immune to noise. If I were you, I
would try re-wiring these two signals with a single shielded lead for each
ignition, with the shield grounded only on the firewall end of the leads.
That may solve your apparent wire bundling issue.... I've done this with the
interface to my Electronics International RPM gage, and am not having any
errors in the readings...
I have nothing against Jeff's ignitions system. I put over 2000 Hrs on a
single unit on my last RV-6A, with only one sensor failure. So far, I have
put over 6 sensors into these units, and just recently, have converted over
to a new style sensor (1/2" Vs 3/8"). Jeff modified both sensor bodies, and
installed the new sensors for free, even though he now doesn't own the
company. I call that very good support..... So I'm not yet ready to give up
on these units.... I guess that's why we're flying "Experimental"
aircraft....
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
-----Original Message-----
From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.net]
Subject: Hard Starting
Hi Fred,
I also have starting problems but think it was my not familiar with the fuel
injection system an Airflow Performance System. In fact one of the things I
did was send the servo back to be checked and it was checked ok. Jeff Rose
hasn't been too helpful on helping me out. He sold the business and will
give advice but I am still having problems. Also have the Rocky Mountain
Monitor and when the ElectoAir wires all tye wrapped up the RPM doesn't
work. I sent the Monitor back and it was ok. Looks like we are about to
flood the market with used ElectoAir Ignition System!
Bruce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> |
Bruce,
I don't see much RPM drop with either single unit switched off. You might
have a timing issue. Be sure that, with the 0* timing jumpers installed, you
are firing both ignitions at 0* TDC (with an automotive timing light) at a
very low RPM. You should also verify that both ignitions show very close to
the same timing with the 0* timing jumper off (at a very low RPM). It might
not be what you expect - 25* BTDC... Jeff indicated to me that it takes a
special timing light to get an accurate reading... I saw about 30* on
mine...
Be sure that you have the wires going to the correct plugs. The coil packs
should be cylinder 1-4 starting at the post nearest to the other electrical
connection block.
Also check out the resistance of each ignition wire. Because of length
differences, they will not be the same, but should be in the same order of
magnitude (10,000 - 30,000 ohms). If you have an internal disconnect (that
results in arcing, wire failure, and excessive radio noise) you will read an
infinite resistance.
I am also using the REM37BY plugs as auto plugs caused detonation problems
with my O-320DiA 9:1 compression engine....
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
-----Original Message-----
From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.net]
Subject: ElectoAir!
Hi Fred,
I have two ElectroAir Ignition Systems on my IO320. Not flown yet but
tracking down an excessive RPM drop with one system off. What do you get on
ground run up with one off. Mine drops about 300 RPM and runs very rough. I
was looking for something about 50 RPM drop. The local engine guru suggest I
switch some wires on the modules and see what happens. He did a visual check
on it and it looks good. What sort of drop do you get on ground checks? I
will switch plug wires tomorrow. I am looking at dual mags!
Best regards,
Bruce Bell
Lubbock, Texas
RV-4 Ser # 2888 N23BB (Used my VAL COM yesterday for the first time with
Lubbock Ground and was " loud and clear"!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> |
| Subject: | Electronic Ignition Problem |
Bill,
Interesting, I have a similar setup. I always start the engine with the
ignition on a separate, isolated battery. I don't get a kickback, but it
just doesn't start well. I've even tried different mixtures during startup
(to the extent of flooding the engine). Some listers have indicated that the
starter may be turning the engine over too fast for the ignition during
startup. I have a SkyTec starter. What are you using?
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
Fred -
I installed dual Electroair ignitions in my Lancair 320 ten years ago
and
have never experienced a problem with them, with the exception of a
few
rare instances of engine kickback during starting...NOT a good thing.
To
the credit of my SkyTec starter, it has endured a dozen or more
instances
of these kickbacks.
I spoke with the SkyTec's engineer/owner and he told me the problem
was
that the Electroair ignition can lose timing during starting should
the
voltage drop sufficiently low, as would be the case with a weak
battery. I
remembered that the kickbacks had always occurred late in the life of
the
three or four batteries I've gone through ( I know, three or four
batteries
in ten years is excessive, but I now use a battery minder to maintain
them
during periods of inactivity and they should now last their full five
to
six year life)
I have an all electric installation (no vacuum pump) with Main and
Backup
batteries. The Backup battery is charged from the Main bus, but is
otherwise isolated, unless I switch to backup power, in which case
it's
dedicated to the electronic iginition. I now switch to backup power
prior
to starting and the ignition receives full voltage. I've never
experienced
a kickback problem since.
Bill Rumburg
N403WR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Electronic Ignition Problem |
Fred,
I have the Plasma III electronic ignition in my airplane, but it sounds
to me that your system has a bad ground setup, or you ignition system is
not automatically retarding the timing for starting. With electronic
ignition systems working properly the plane should start on the first or
second blade if the engine is tuned properly. I have test flown 6
airplanes with electronic ignition systems and they all (after
tuning)ran like Swiss watches and started on the first two blades and at
very low throttle settings (700rpm). You should be able to get the
airplane to start like a car if everything is set up correctly.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic Ignition Problem
UTPWR"
Bill,
Interesting, I have a similar setup. I always start the engine with
the
ignition on a separate, isolated battery. I don't get a kickback, but it
just doesn't start well. I've even tried different mixtures during
startup
(to the extent of flooding the engine). Some listers have indicated that
the
starter may be turning the engine over too fast for the ignition during
startup. I have a SkyTec starter. What are you using?
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
Fred -
I installed dual Electroair ignitions in my Lancair 320 ten years
ago
and
have never experienced a problem with them, with the exception of
a
few
rare instances of engine kickback during starting...NOT a good
thing.
To
the credit of my SkyTec starter, it has endured a dozen or more
instances
of these kickbacks.
I spoke with the SkyTec's engineer/owner and he told me the
problem
was
that the Electroair ignition can lose timing during starting
should
the
voltage drop sufficiently low, as would be the case with a weak
battery. I
remembered that the kickbacks had always occurred late in the life
of
the
three or four batteries I've gone through ( I know, three or four
batteries
in ten years is excessive, but I now use a battery minder to
maintain
them
during periods of inactivity and they should now last their full
five
to
six year life)
I have an all electric installation (no vacuum pump) with Main and
Backup
batteries. The Backup battery is charged from the Main bus, but
is
otherwise isolated, unless I switch to backup power, in which case
it's
dedicated to the electronic iginition. I now switch to backup
power
prior
to starting and the ignition receives full voltage. I've never
experienced
a kickback problem since.
Bill Rumburg
N403WR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)itecusa.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Bluetooth in the Cockpit |
I am new to the list, but I saw this on the archives and thought I would
chime in.
I haven't heard of Bluetooth causing any problems, and just the fact that it
seems to be so popular with all of the different weather system vendors (the
PC or Pocket PC based ones) says to me that there aren't interference
problems with it. We have a hard-wired system. I got an extra antenna for
the WX receiver and mounted the receiver in a place that is easy to get to
for taking it to another plane, so it is still portable. I would say in
general that hard-wired is almost always better than wireless. The only
case that wireless would be a more reliable connection may be if you are
moving the weather unit around a lot and you could end up getting a
conductor break in one of the cables (you would probably have to move it
around a whole lot for this to happen). If you are planning on setting it
up in your plane and not moving it much or removing it much, then you are
probably better off with wires, and will save money on the equipment as
well. After all, you already have a ton of wires behind your panel and
throughout your airframe, so what is the problem with a few more.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org/>
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pfsiegel <psiegel(at)fuse.net> |
| Subject: | Protection for E-Bus Alternate Feed? |
I am in the final stages of design for an alternate feed for an E-Bus
from an always hot battery bus.
My design goal is to have an alternate feed to the E-Bus available in
the event that the normal feed from the Main Power Distribution Bus
fails. (This could occur if, say for example, the battery contactor to
the Main Power Distribution Bus fails.)
The E-Bus could be called upon to supply as much as 20 amps.
It would seem my options to protect the alternate feed include:
1) Fuse (inline or surface mount)
a. Cylindrical fuse
b. Blade Type fuse
2) Circuit Breaker
3) Current Limiter
4) Relay
5) Contactor
6) Delfi Automotive Battery Disconnect Module
For safety considerations, this protection should be placed next to the
battery, which might rule out a traditional circuit breaker.
Since this would be an emergency use feature, the protection option
chosen must have very high reliability.
What is the difference between a current limiter and a fuse?
I would like to try to avoid a relay or contactor because of the
mechanical nature of the connection which might be more prone to failure?
PLEASE give me some input! What are advantages and disadvantages of my
options. Am I overlooking any other viable alternatives?
(Bob, are you listening?)
Paul Siegel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Marshall" <tony(at)lambros.com> |
| Subject: | Intercomm and XM |
My RV6 has a Dave Clark IsoCom intercom. That device has no music input
jack. Since the device fits nicely into a hole in my panel, I really dont
wish to change it.
If I were to purchase a Garmin 396 and thereby have XM radio capability, is
there a 'reasonable' way to introduce that into my intercom system? Since I
fly alone most of the time, even if it were just available to my headset (a
Peltor noice cancelling one), that would be satisfactory....but having that
available to both headsets would definitely be better.
Any thoughts?
Tony Marshall
RV6
Polson, MT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Protection for E-Bus Alternate Feed? |
Which of the schematics are you basing your system on?
Dave Morris
At 01:36 PM 11/1/2005, you wrote:
>
>I am in the final stages of design for an alternate feed for an E-Bus
>from an always hot battery bus.
>
>My design goal is to have an alternate feed to the E-Bus available in
>the event that the normal feed from the Main Power Distribution Bus
>fails. (This could occur if, say for example, the battery contactor to
>the Main Power Distribution Bus fails.)
>
>The E-Bus could be called upon to supply as much as 20 amps.
>
>It would seem my options to protect the alternate feed include:
>
>1) Fuse (inline or surface mount)
> a. Cylindrical fuse
> b. Blade Type fuse
>
>2) Circuit Breaker
>
>3) Current Limiter
>
>4) Relay
>
>5) Contactor
>
>6) Delfi Automotive Battery Disconnect Module
>
>For safety considerations, this protection should be placed next to the
>battery, which might rule out a traditional circuit breaker.
>
>Since this would be an emergency use feature, the protection option
>chosen must have very high reliability.
>
>What is the difference between a current limiter and a fuse?
>
>I would like to try to avoid a relay or contactor because of the
>mechanical nature of the connection which might be more prone to failure?
>
>PLEASE give me some input! What are advantages and disadvantages of my
>options. Am I overlooking any other viable alternatives?
>(Bob, are you listening?)
>
>Paul Siegel
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Intercomm and XM |
There are any number of places (including Sporty's) that offer a "box" that
provides a cellphone/music interface.
You plug your headset and your music source into the box, then plug the
cables from the box into your existing headset/mic jacks...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tony
Marshall
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Intercomm and XM
My RV6 has a Dave Clark IsoCom intercom. That device has no music input
jack. Since the device fits nicely into a hole in my panel, I really dont
wish to change it.
If I were to purchase a Garmin 396 and thereby have XM radio capability, is
there a 'reasonable' way to introduce that into my intercom system? Since I
fly alone most of the time, even if it were just available to my headset (a
Peltor noice cancelling one), that would be satisfactory....but having that
available to both headsets would definitely be better.
Any thoughts?
Tony Marshall
RV6
Polson, MT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
Hello all-
I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2 powered
by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of the
pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the port
wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this is that
the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery bus to the
Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches -- in fact, it
is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows this.
While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of the
firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs want to
be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as in a car) so
I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as well. Presumably
I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to
make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I
simply relocate the blocks & be done with it?
Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter
contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed install.
My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side of
the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the exhaust
side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks from above,
then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4, not shown on
the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough real-life examples
of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone around here has by-the-book
Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be found.
Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted...
Thanks,
Mark Supinski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Hello all,
Had to break down and buy a crimper for my RG58 terminations (one I
borrowed from work was worn).
I purchased a cheapo from Radio Shack at $17 and it works very well. I
know these crimpers are usually more expensive so I thought I'd pass on
this tip.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Denton
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Intercomm and XM
-->
There are any number of places (including Sporty's) that offer a "box"
that provides a cellphone/music interface.
You plug your headset and your music source into the box, then plug the
cables from the box into your existing headset/mic jacks...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tony
Marshall
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Intercomm and XM
-->
My RV6 has a Dave Clark IsoCom intercom. That device has no music input
jack. Since the device fits nicely into a hole in my panel, I really
dont wish to change it.
If I were to purchase a Garmin 396 and thereby have XM radio capability,
is there a 'reasonable' way to introduce that into my intercom system?
Since I fly alone most of the time, even if it were just available to my
headset (a Peltor noice cancelling one), that would be
satisfactory....but having that available to both headsets would
definitely be better.
Any thoughts?
Tony Marshall
RV6
Polson, MT
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bluetooth in the cockpit |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Hello James -
I tried the WxWorx blue tooth receiver in the back of our e-glass Lancair
ES (not flying yet). It works like a charm - even when transmitting on com
1 (Garmin AT 480). The antenna is in the vertical fin and is about 5 feet
away from the receiver. However, when I transmitted on Com 2 (Garmin AT
SL-30), the fuse on the power supply blew. The antenna for this radio is
only 18 inches away from the receiver. Both are Bob Archer Antennas.
Location seems to have some effect on this problem.
I called WxWorx and they admit that Cirrus has a big problem. They are in
the nearing the end of developing a new power supply that is not supposed
to be vulnerable to the radiation or whatever causes this. In the
meantime, they recommended a Radio Shack item for $32. They are not sure
how they will handle the upgrade to the new one - free, small fee or big
fee.
We are not flying yet, so we can wait to see how it shakes out.
Thanks for the heads-up.
John Schreoder
>
> FYI there is a known issue with the WxWorx-supplied power supply in
> composite aircraft. Comm transmissions will instantly and repeatably
> blow the fuse in the power supply.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bluetooth in the cockpit |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Hi Paul -
Any details, schematics and pictures of this power supply?
Thanks,
John
wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Well I can confirm this issue, but until now I didn't know why, and yes,
> I
> did solve it by rolling my own powersupply.
>
> Paul
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Neubauer" <markn(at)fuse.net> |
| Subject: | Ammeter shunt wiring, Part II |
The ammeters (2 of them) were purchased from Van's, I presume they are
analog, and 50 mA rating if I remember correctly. They were wired just like
that shown in Aeroelectric Connection (in the alternator output line). The
shunts were purchased from B&C (It's been 2 years since they were wired) One
is connected to show current flow from alt#1 (a B&C externally regulated
unit), the other from alt#2 (an SD-8); no switching is therefore needed for
individual readings.
Bob, you ask if these are electronic ammeters. What other kind of ammeter is
there besides electronic?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
I got in touch with some 'hacker' sites for Ipod info by going to
'makezine.com' & doing a search for your particular issue. There is a lot
of haystack to sift through to find your needle though. Still looking for
mine. Also might want to try 'hackaday.com'
Good Luck!
From: "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: was ipod
----- Original Message -----
From: bob noffs
Subject: was ipod
hi all,
i have a garmin 12 handheld gps that i use to drive a palm pilot. cables
that
give power to only the gps are a dime a dozen but i have found only one
vendor
that has one that powers the palm too and it is $90. even palm corporate
phone
offers no tech help for a question like''how many hours from the light
source
in a palm before it burns out?'' anyway,,,, any advice on a source for a
cable
like i am looking for, or another way to get power to the palm? thanks
bob noffs
p.s. how would i find a link to a ''hacker'' like is mentioned for ipod?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Protection for E-Bus Alternate Feed? |
>
>I am in the final stages of design for an alternate feed for an E-Bus
>from an always hot battery bus.
>
>My design goal is to have an alternate feed to the E-Bus available in
>the event that the normal feed from the Main Power Distribution Bus
>fails. (This could occur if, say for example, the battery contactor to
>the Main Power Distribution Bus fails.)
>The E-Bus could be called upon to supply as much as 20 amps.
How come so many amps? What's on the e-bus?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Electronic Ignition Problem |
Mike,
Your point is quite valid, but I've physically checked the battery and
ignition ground connections multiple times.. I'll run a test this weekend
and see what kind of voltage drop occurs between the battery ground lead,
and the ignition ground lead (with a digital storage scope) during the
engine start sequence.. I don't expect to see more than a few Millivolts.
I'm wondering if the firewall ground feed thru bolt, which carries the
starter current, isn't the problem. The Aux battery (that powers just the
ignitions) is also connected to this feed thru bolt. It's the common ground
to the firewall for the ignition modules. If there is a voltage drop in this
5/16 X 24 brass bolt, it would certainly explain the problem. Not likely,
but certainly worth exploring.
It might also be a better idea to ground the Aux battery to another
firewall point..... We'll see this weekend...
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
Ignition Problem
Fred,
I have the Plasma III electronic ignition in my airplane, but it
sounds
to me that your system has a bad ground setup, or you ignition system
is
not automatically retarding the timing for starting. With electronic
ignition systems working properly the plane should start on the first
or
second blade if the engine is tuned properly. I have test flown 6
airplanes with electronic ignition systems and they all (after
tuning)ran like Swiss watches and started on the first two blades and
at
very low throttle settings (700rpm). You should be able to get the
airplane to start like a car if everything is set up correctly.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic Ignition Problem
UTPWR"
Bill,
Interesting, I have a similar setup. I always start the engine with
the
ignition on a separate, isolated battery. I don't get a kickback, but
it
just doesn't start well. I've even tried different mixtures during
startup
(to the extent of flooding the engine). Some listers have indicated
that
the
starter may be turning the engine over too fast for the ignition
during
startup. I have a SkyTec starter. What are you using?
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
Fred -
I installed dual Electroair ignitions in my Lancair 320 ten
years
ago
and
have never experienced a problem with them, with the exception
of
a
few
rare instances of engine kickback during starting...NOT a good
thing.
To
the credit of my SkyTec starter, it has endured a dozen or more
instances
of these kickbacks.
I spoke with the SkyTec's engineer/owner and he told me the
problem
was
that the Electroair ignition can lose timing during starting
should
the
voltage drop sufficiently low, as would be the case with a weak
battery. I
remembered that the kickbacks had always occurred late in the
life
of
the
three or four batteries I've gone through ( I know, three or
four
batteries
in ten years is excessive, but I now use a battery minder to
maintain
them
during periods of inactivity and they should now last their full
five
to
six year life)
I have an all electric installation (no vacuum pump) with Main
and
Backup
batteries. The Backup battery is charged from the Main bus, but
is
otherwise isolated, unless I switch to backup power, in which
case
it's
dedicated to the electronic iginition. I now switch to backup
power
prior
to starting and the ignition receives full voltage. I've never
experienced
a kickback problem since.
Bill Rumburg
N403WR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Brown" <romott(at)adelphia.net> |
>-----Original Message-----
>From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.net]
>Subject: ElectoAir!
>
>Hi Fred,
>I have two ElectroAir Ignition Systems on my IO320. Not flown yet but
>tracking down an excessive RPM drop with one system off. What do you get on
>ground run up with one off. Mine drops about 300 RPM and runs very rough. I
>was looking for something about 50 RPM drop. The local engine guru suggest
>I
>switch some wires on the modules and see what happens. He did a visual
>check
>on it and it looks good. What sort of drop do you get on ground checks? I
>will switch plug wires tomorrow. I am looking at dual mags!
>Best regards,
>Bruce Bell
>Lubbock, Texas
>RV-4 Ser # 2888 N23BB (Used my VAL COM yesterday for the first time with
>Lubbock Ground and was " loud and clear"!
You need to check and make sure you don't have a bad spark plug. I had the
same problem on the initial start of my Lycoming IO360. If you have an EIS
or other EGT monitor, watch all 4 EGT's during the RPM drop. If one of the
plugs on that ElectroAir is bad, the EGT will drop during the test. Move
that plug to another cylinder to verify it is the plug and not a wire. I
replaced the defective new plug and it has been running sweet for the past
190 hours.
I like the Jeff Rose ElectroAir VERY much. Don't replace them with mags -
you'll be sorry! (In fact I have been having a problem with my Slick mag -
the timing will advance itself over time. A thorough inspection found
nothing wrong. I have reset it twice already.)
Re the kick back, I always delay turning the ElectroAir on until the engine
has turned over for a second or two. I have never had a kick back. I have
a single battery.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Denis Walsh <denis.walsh(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: re: ElectroAir! |
Ron a 300rpm drop is a pretty good sign you are missing a cylinder
on a four cyl engine . Check also the lead for the missing
cylinder, including both the end at the coil and the one at the
plug. ends. If there is a separation it will cause the same
symptom. Also fouled plug, broken plug, etc. Any old timer can show
you how to find the cold cylinder after running a brief period with
it missing.
I have had very good service with my slick mag, but also love my
electroair. I have had problems over the eight years I've been
running it with the terminuses (termini?). I highly recommend you
check out getting a set of Champion terminus kits and use REM 37BY
plugs. On the coil end you can use the auto push on nipple things.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Denis Walsh
On Nov 2, 2005, at 6:34 AM, Ron Brown wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.net]
>> Subject: ElectoAir!
>>
>> Hi Fred,
>> I have two ElectroAir Ignition Systems on my IO320. Not flown yet but
>> tracking down an excessive RPM drop with one system off. What do
>> you get on
>> ground run up with one off. Mine drops about 300 RPM and runs very
>> rough. I
>> was looking for something about 50 RPM drop. The local engine guru
>> suggest
>> I
>> switch some wires on the modules and see what happens. He did a
>> visual
>> check
>> on it and it looks good. What sort of drop do you get on ground
>> checks? I
>> will switch plug wires tomorrow. I am looking at dual mags!
>> Best regards,
>> Bruce Bell
>> Lubbock, Texas
>> RV-4 Ser # 2888 N23BB (Used my VAL COM yesterday for the first
>> time with
>> Lubbock Ground and was " loud and clear"!
>
> You need to check and make sure you don't have a bad spark plug. I
> had the
> same problem on the initial start of my Lycoming IO360. If you
> have an EIS
> or other EGT monitor, watch all 4 EGT's during the RPM drop. If
> one of the
> plugs on that ElectroAir is bad, the EGT will drop during the
> test. Move
> that plug to another cylinder to verify it is the plug and not a
> wire. I
> replaced the defective new plug and it has been running sweet for
> the past
> 190 hours.
>
> I like the Jeff Rose ElectroAir VERY much. Don't replace them with
> mags -
> you'll be sorry! (In fact I have been having a problem with my
> Slick mag -
> the timing will advance itself over time. A thorough inspection found
> nothing wrong. I have reset it twice already.)
>
> Re the kick back, I always delay turning the ElectroAir on until
> the engine
> has turned over for a second or two. I have never had a kick
> back. I have
> a single battery.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Coax crimper |
For my comm antenna, I bought a 10' section of RG58 that was factory
terminated
with the proper BNC connector at each end. I cut it to length, and soldered
the connections at the antenna end. That way I got factory terminated BNC
connections, and didn't have to buy a crimper. For my radiating element, I
used a brass rod with nylon bushings for insulators. Total cost for the cable
& antenna was under $10, and it will transmit and receive over 40 miles using
my 5 watt Vertex Standard handheld.
Steve Ruse
Quoting "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" :
> (Corvallis)"
>
> Hello all,
>
> Had to break down and buy a crimper for my RG58 terminations (one I
> borrowed from work was worn).
>
> I purchased a cheapo from Radio Shack at $17 and it works very well. I
> know these crimpers are usually more expensive so I thought I'd pass on
> this tip.
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
> Denton
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Intercomm and XM
>
> -->
>
> There are any number of places (including Sporty's) that offer a "box"
> that provides a cellphone/music interface.
>
> You plug your headset and your music source into the box, then plug the
> cables from the box into your existing headset/mic jacks...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tony
> Marshall
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Intercomm and XM
>
>
> -->
>
> My RV6 has a Dave Clark IsoCom intercom. That device has no music input
> jack. Since the device fits nicely into a hole in my panel, I really
> dont wish to change it.
>
> If I were to purchase a Garmin 396 and thereby have XM radio capability,
> is there a 'reasonable' way to introduce that into my intercom system?
> Since I fly alone most of the time, even if it were just available to my
> headset (a Peltor noice cancelling one), that would be
> satisfactory....but having that available to both headsets would
> definitely be better.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Tony Marshall
> RV6
> Polson, MT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Electronic Ignition Problem |
I have a similar setup, only using LSE's CDI system. I have a 7.5 AH backup
battery which I use to fire the #1 CDI during startup and to power #1 in the
event of lost main bus power. I also have installed a second voltmeter which
can be selected to monitor either main bus or backup voltage. During
startup, the main bus voltage drops to between 8 and 9 volts. This has been
reported to be a problem with CDI systems; the details as to why I don't
recall: perhaps the CDI gets confused or drops off-line.
Once before using the backup for powering the #1, I did get a kick back.
Since then no problems.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Electronic Ignition Problem
>
>
> Mike,
>
> Your point is quite valid, but I've physically checked the battery and
> ignition ground connections multiple times.. I'll run a test this weekend
> and see what kind of voltage drop occurs between the battery ground lead,
> and the ignition ground lead (with a digital storage scope) during the
> engine start sequence.. I don't expect to see more than a few Millivolts.
> I'm wondering if the firewall ground feed thru bolt, which carries the
> starter current, isn't the problem. The Aux battery (that powers just the
> ignitions) is also connected to this feed thru bolt. It's the common
> ground
> to the firewall for the ignition modules. If there is a voltage drop in
> this
> 5/16 X 24 brass bolt, it would certainly explain the problem. Not likely,
> but certainly worth exploring.
> It might also be a better idea to ground the Aux battery to another
> firewall point..... We'll see this weekend...
>
>
> Fred Stucklen
> RV-6A N926RV
>
>
> Electronic
> Ignition Problem
>
> Fred,
>
> I have the Plasma III electronic ignition in my airplane, but it
> sounds
> to me that your system has a bad ground setup, or you ignition system
> is
> not automatically retarding the timing for starting. With electronic
> ignition systems working properly the plane should start on the first
> or
> second blade if the engine is tuned properly. I have test flown 6
> airplanes with electronic ignition systems and they all (after
> tuning)ran like Swiss watches and started on the first two blades and
> at
> very low throttle settings (700rpm). You should be able to get the
> airplane to start like a car if everything is set up correctly.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic Ignition Problem
>
> UTPWR"
>
> Bill,
>
> Interesting, I have a similar setup. I always start the engine with
> the
> ignition on a separate, isolated battery. I don't get a kickback, but
> it
> just doesn't start well. I've even tried different mixtures during
> startup
> (to the extent of flooding the engine). Some listers have indicated
> that
> the
> starter may be turning the engine over too fast for the ignition
> during
> startup. I have a SkyTec starter. What are you using?
>
> Fred Stucklen
> RV-6A N926RV
>
>
> Fred -
> I installed dual Electroair ignitions in my Lancair 320 ten
> years
> ago
> and
> have never experienced a problem with them, with the exception
> of
> a
> few
> rare instances of engine kickback during starting...NOT a good
> thing.
> To
> the credit of my SkyTec starter, it has endured a dozen or more
> instances
> of these kickbacks.
> I spoke with the SkyTec's engineer/owner and he told me the
> problem
> was
> that the Electroair ignition can lose timing during starting
> should
> the
> voltage drop sufficiently low, as would be the case with a weak
> battery. I
> remembered that the kickbacks had always occurred late in the
> life
> of
> the
> three or four batteries I've gone through ( I know, three or
> four
> batteries
> in ten years is excessive, but I now use a battery minder to
> maintain
> them
> during periods of inactivity and they should now last their
> full
> five
> to
> six year life)
> I have an all electric installation (no vacuum pump) with Main
> and
> Backup
> batteries. The Backup battery is charged from the Main bus, but
> is
> otherwise isolated, unless I switch to backup power, in which
> case
> it's
> dedicated to the electronic iginition. I now switch to backup
> power
> prior
> to starting and the ignition receives full voltage. I've never
> experienced
> a kickback problem since.
>
> Bill Rumburg
> N403WR
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
| From: | "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle(at)austin.utexas.edu> |
Mark,
I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already
done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce
the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine
side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the
cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance.
There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary
group.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
R. Supinski
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
Hello all-
I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2
powered
by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of
the
pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the port
wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this is
that
the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery bus to
the
Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches -- in
fact, it
is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows this.
While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of
the
firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs want
to
be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as in a car)
so
I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as well.
Presumably
I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to
make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I
simply relocate the blocks & be done with it?
Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter
contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed
install.
My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side
of
the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the
exhaust
side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks from above,
then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4, not shown
on
the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough real-life
examples
of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone around here has
by-the-book
Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be found.
Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted...
Thanks,
Mark Supinski
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Actually I would go one stage further and put the fuel pumps inside the
cabin or even better in the wing roots.
To me using a blast tube and cool box on the firewall is trying to treat
the symptom of the disease...You might feel better but it may still kill
you...:)
Note the Eggenfelner Subaru had the setup you describe....but changed it
to move the pumps inside on the cabin floor after they had a vapour
lock incident on takeoff that resulted in a crash.
Lycomings have engine driven pumps because they are intended for 100LL
use that normally has a lower vapour pressure than autofuel and electric
fuel pumps of the past were not trusted, relying on mechanical pumps
that were thought to be safer. In todays world, modern electric fuel
pumps are used on all modern cars and look where they put the pump
either in the tank or right next to it at the lowest point of the
system.
There is a very good reason for this...I.e sucking on a high vapour
pressure liquid is asking for vapour lock....If the temperature of the
liquid (fuel) is allowed to rise the VP gets higher, When the amount of
pump suck equals the VP of the fuel it will boil and your pump will quit
immeditaly.
My advice would be if you are using electric pumps then put them in the
"hydraulically correct" place...I.e low and as close (hydraulically
speaking) to the tanks as possible. This means a 3/8ths feedline to the
pump that is as short as possible. If you are using an EFI pump you'll
need a filter before the pump so get the largest one possible and change
it after say 5 hours on the new airplane and again at say 20 hours then
yearly after that.
In my RV7a (eventualy intended for autofuel use) I have an EFI pump in
each wing root....Both pumps will run on takeoff and landing. To switch
tanks I simply turn the apporpriate pump on/off...I have a carbureted
low wing plane now with the same setup...works sweet. Even better, if a
pump quits on takeoff you won't even know 'cus the other one will
merrily continue to pump fuel. The FI setup I have uses a pressure
relief valve for each pump in the wing root also together with a non
return valve to prevent cross transfer between the wing tanks.
I today see many a fuel pump mounted up on the firewall on a low wing
plane and the owner is ablivious to the dangers...It has resulted in a
number of bent aircraft. I don't like presurised fuel in the cockpit
either but I'd rather have it and not have to worry about the engine
continuing to run on take off on a hot day.
My two cents of course
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
R Steitle
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
-->
Mark,
I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already
done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce
the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine
side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the
cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance.
There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary
group.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
R. Supinski
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
Hello all-
I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2
powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of
the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the
port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this
is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery
bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches
-- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows
this.
While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of
the firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs
want to be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as
in a car) so I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as
well.
Presumably
I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to
make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I
simply relocate the blocks & be done with it?
Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter
contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed
install.
My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side
of the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the
exhaust side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks
from above, then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4,
not shown on the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough
real-life examples of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone
around here has by-the-book Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be
found.
Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted...
Thanks,
Mark Supinski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 Layout Help |
I will be running cooling air onto that area of the firewall -- I plan on
running SCAT tubing from a cheek intake & blowing it down onto the batteries
& fuel pumps to address exactly the concern you are highlighting.
With respect to fuel pump location, the M2's main fuel tank is (essentially)
a giant header tank located right behind the instrument panel. In their
current location, the fuel pumps are almost a foot lower than the sump from
the tank -- I expect very positive priming from this, since there is no
"sucking" going on.
I have never found the fly rotary list -- got a link?
Still need folks input on the original questions! Bob? Someone? Help!
Mark Supinski
On 11/2/05, Mark R Steitle wrote:
>
> >
>
> Mark,
> I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already
> done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce
> the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine
> side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the
> cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance.
> There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary
> group.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
> R. Supinski
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
>
>
>
> Hello all-
>
> I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2
> powered
> by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
>
> One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of
> the
> pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the port
> wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this is
> that
> the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery bus to
> the
> Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches -- in
> fact, it
> is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows this.
>
> While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of
> the
> firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs want
> to
> be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as in a car)
> so
> I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as well.
> Presumably
> I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to
> make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I
> simply relocate the blocks & be done with it?
>
> Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter
> contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed
> install.
> My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side
> of
> the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the
> exhaust
> side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks from above,
> then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4, not shown
> on
> the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough real-life
> examples
> of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone around here has
> by-the-book
> Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be found.
>
> Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Supinski
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
| From: | "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle(at)austin.utexas.edu> |
Try www.flyrotary.com
I have never found the fly rotary list -- got a link?
Mark Supinski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 Layout Help |
Unfortunately, I don't have much choice on fuel pump location. Due to the M2
design with the 25 gal. tank behind the instrument panel, I don't have *any*
usable firewall real estate on the cabin-side of the firewall. The tank
abuts the upper half of the firewall, and the rudder pedals abut the lower
half. The current design has (max) 36" of fuel line between the tank sump
and the fuel pumps. There is appx 12" of "head" in the design (tank sump
higher than fuel pumps). The plans-built M2 does not store fuel in the
wings.
...Still looking for some comment on the electrical characteristics of this
design...
Mark Supinski
On 11/2/05, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
>
>
> Actually I would go one stage further and put the fuel pumps inside the
> cabin or even better in the wing roots.
>
> To me using a blast tube and cool box on the firewall is trying to treat
> the symptom of the disease...You might feel better but it may still kill
> you...:)
>
> Note the Eggenfelner Subaru had the setup you describe....but changed it
> to move the pumps inside on the cabin floor after they had a vapour
> lock incident on takeoff that resulted in a crash.
>
> Lycomings have engine driven pumps because they are intended for 100LL
> use that normally has a lower vapour pressure than autofuel and electric
> fuel pumps of the past were not trusted, relying on mechanical pumps
> that were thought to be safer. In todays world, modern electric fuel
> pumps are used on all modern cars and look where they put the pump
> either in the tank or right next to it at the lowest point of the
> system.
>
> There is a very good reason for this...I.e sucking on a high vapour
> pressure liquid is asking for vapour lock....If the temperature of the
> liquid (fuel) is allowed to rise the VP gets higher, When the amount of
> pump suck equals the VP of the fuel it will boil and your pump will quit
> immeditaly.
>
> My advice would be if you are using electric pumps then put them in the
> "hydraulically correct" place...I.e low and as close (hydraulically
> speaking) to the tanks as possible. This means a 3/8ths feedline to the
> pump that is as short as possible. If you are using an EFI pump you'll
> need a filter before the pump so get the largest one possible and change
> it after say 5 hours on the new airplane and again at say 20 hours then
> yearly after that.
>
> In my RV7a (eventualy intended for autofuel use) I have an EFI pump in
> each wing root....Both pumps will run on takeoff and landing. To switch
> tanks I simply turn the apporpriate pump on/off...I have a carbureted
> low wing plane now with the same setup...works sweet. Even better, if a
> pump quits on takeoff you won't even know 'cus the other one will
> merrily continue to pump fuel. The FI setup I have uses a pressure
> relief valve for each pump in the wing root also together with a non
> return valve to prevent cross transfer between the wing tanks.
>
> I today see many a fuel pump mounted up on the firewall on a low wing
> plane and the owner is ablivious to the dangers...It has resulted in a
> number of bent aircraft. I don't like presurised fuel in the cockpit
> either but I'd rather have it and not have to worry about the engine
> continuing to run on take off on a hot day.
>
> My two cents of course
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
> R Steitle
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
>
> -->
>
> Mark,
> I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already
> done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce
> the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine
> side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the
> cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance.
> There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary
> group.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
> R. Supinski
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
>
>
>
> Hello all-
>
> I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2
> powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
>
> One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of
> the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the
> port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this
> is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery
> bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches
> -- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows
> this.
>
> While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of
> the firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs
> want to be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as
> in a car) so I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as
> well.
> Presumably
> I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to
> make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I
> simply relocate the blocks & be done with it?
>
> Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter
> contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed
> install.
> My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side
> of the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the
> exhaust side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks
> from above, then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4,
> not shown on the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough
> real-life examples of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone
> around here has by-the-book Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be
> found.
>
> Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Supinski
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ted D. Hultzapple" <thultzap(at)rochester.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Charging two batteries |
Guys, I have a motorglider with two batteries, a 17ah. for the starter and
engine electrics, and a 7.2 ah. for the avionics. The batteries are on
separate circuits, so I have to charge them separately. I think both
batteries are sealed lead acid. Is it o.k. to charge the batteries in
parallel or do they have to be isolated with diodes? I was thinking of
using a plug to charge both batteries at the same time but would separate
the circuits when I removed the charger.
Thanks
Ted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pfsiegel <psiegel(at)fuse.net> |
| Subject: | Re E-bus alternate feed |
Bob et al,
Thanks for taking interest in my question.
I am using a modified version of your Z-14 dual battery, dual alternator
split bus scheme.
I started out with the best intentions of keeping the e-bus load to the
bare minimums. But...
My nav-com will come from a Garmin 430 which has GPS as well as
VOR/localizer/ glide slope.
Of course I included panel lights.
My horizon information comes from a Grand Rapids EFIS system.
Since I don't have a directional gyro in my all electric panel, the
heading information comes from the True Track digital autopilot.
If I have a copilot in the back seat of my F1 Evo (tapered wing version
of the Harmon Rocket) I'd want to communicate in an emergency, so I
included the audio panel/intercom.
And I know you don't suggest it, but I left the transponder on the E-bus
too.
That is how I ended up with so much load on my e-bus. I'm not too
worried about the high load because I have the backup alternator and
backup battery.
My real question is how to protect my alternate feeds from the always
hot battery busses?
The switch to select alternate feed is a 20 amp circuitbreaker switch.
But that still leaves the wire from the always hot bus to the circuit
breaker switch unprotected.
I have considered placing an inline fuse or possibly a current limiter
right at the always hot bus in the wire path of the wire to the circuit
breaker switch.
One drawback is that I cannot "turn off" power in the wire that goes to
the circuit breaker switch, which of course I could do with a relay used
right at the always hot battery bus.
The primary reason for the always hot bus is to have a bullet proof
supply the electronic ignition.
I sure appreciate your thoughts on this matter!
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> |
My Gamin transponder says to avoid mounting the antennae within three feet of a
comm antennae. I have the bent whip style comm ant and was wondering if the
3 foot is measured from the transponder ant (ball), to the tip of the comm ant
or the base of the comm ant.
Thanks in advance,
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: re: ElectroAir! |
I did a google search for "Champion terminus kits" nothing of interest came
up. What the heck are these things?
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denis Walsh" <denis.walsh(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: ElectroAir!
>
>
> Ron a 300rpm drop is a pretty good sign you are missing a cylinder
> on a four cyl engine . Check also the lead for the missing
> cylinder, including both the end at the coil and the one at the
> plug. ends. If there is a separation it will cause the same
> symptom. Also fouled plug, broken plug, etc. Any old timer can show
> you how to find the cold cylinder after running a brief period with
> it missing.
>
> I have had very good service with my slick mag, but also love my
> electroair. I have had problems over the eight years I've been
> running it with the terminuses (termini?). I highly recommend you
> check out getting a set of Champion terminus kits and use REM 37BY
> plugs. On the coil end you can use the auto push on nipple things.
>
> Hope this helps and good luck.
>
>
> Denis Walsh
>
> On Nov 2, 2005, at 6:34 AM, Ron Brown wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.net]
>>> Subject: ElectoAir!
>>>
>>> Hi Fred,
>>> I have two ElectroAir Ignition Systems on my IO320. Not flown yet but
>>> tracking down an excessive RPM drop with one system off. What do
>>> you get on
>>> ground run up with one off. Mine drops about 300 RPM and runs very
>>> rough. I
>>> was looking for something about 50 RPM drop. The local engine guru
>>> suggest
>>> I
>>> switch some wires on the modules and see what happens. He did a
>>> visual
>>> check
>>> on it and it looks good. What sort of drop do you get on ground
>>> checks? I
>>> will switch plug wires tomorrow. I am looking at dual mags!
>>> Best regards,
>>> Bruce Bell
>>> Lubbock, Texas
>>> RV-4 Ser # 2888 N23BB (Used my VAL COM yesterday for the first
>>> time with
>>> Lubbock Ground and was " loud and clear"!
>>
>> You need to check and make sure you don't have a bad spark plug. I
>> had the
>> same problem on the initial start of my Lycoming IO360. If you
>> have an EIS
>> or other EGT monitor, watch all 4 EGT's during the RPM drop. If
>> one of the
>> plugs on that ElectroAir is bad, the EGT will drop during the
>> test. Move
>> that plug to another cylinder to verify it is the plug and not a
>> wire. I
>> replaced the defective new plug and it has been running sweet for
>> the past
>> 190 hours.
>>
>> I like the Jeff Rose ElectroAir VERY much. Don't replace them with
>> mags -
>> you'll be sorry! (In fact I have been having a problem with my
>> Slick mag -
>> the timing will advance itself over time. A thorough inspection found
>> nothing wrong. I have reset it twice already.)
>>
>> Re the kick back, I always delay turning the ElectroAir on until
>> the engine
>> has turned over for a second or two. I have never had a kick
>> back. I have
>> a single battery.
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
I had a longer run than 6 inches too.
What I did was to size the cable to feed the main and battery busses as
I normally would (I have 12Ga feeding the batt buss and 2*12GA wires
feeding the main buss...each about 2 ft long). I then used a fusable
link at the source (contactor for the main buss and battery for the batt
buss) of 16GA wire about 4 inches long each.
In other words I still effectively have the short piece of thin wire
that would burn up in the event of a major short...God forbid.
While I was at it I took a seperate wire directly from the battery to
feed the second fuel pump...I think I used an 18Ga, also with a short
length of 22Ga for the fuse link.
The advantage with this approach is I could put the fuse blocks wherever
I want. I also took the precaution of protecting these main feeds with a
continuous lentgh of 1/4" PFA tubing.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
R. Supinski
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
-->
Unfortunately, I don't have much choice on fuel pump location. Due to
the M2 design with the 25 gal. tank behind the instrument panel, I don't
have *any* usable firewall real estate on the cabin-side of the
firewall. The tank abuts the upper half of the firewall, and the rudder
pedals abut the lower half. The current design has (max) 36" of fuel
line between the tank sump and the fuel pumps. There is appx 12" of
"head" in the design (tank sump higher than fuel pumps). The plans-built
M2 does not store fuel in the wings.
...Still looking for some comment on the electrical characteristics of
this design...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
I would recommend that you charge them separately. Charging them in parallel
will result in one battery being charged before the other, but a charging
voltage will be maintained on that battery until the 2nd battery is done
charging & the charger shuts down. One battery will likely overcharge every
time, and its life might be shortened, if it doesn't leak or explode.
I've seen this become a problem even when the batteries were the same size. I
would also recommend that even a single battery not be left unattended in the
plane while charging. The chance of a leak or fire scares me too much.
Just my two cents.
Steve Ruse
Quoting "Ted D. Hultzapple" :
>
>
> Guys, I have a motorglider with two batteries, a 17ah. for the starter and
> engine electrics, and a 7.2 ah. for the avionics. The batteries are on
> separate circuits, so I have to charge them separately. I think both
> batteries are sealed lead acid. Is it o.k. to charge the batteries in
> parallel or do they have to be isolated with diodes? I was thinking of
> using a plug to charge both batteries at the same time but would separate
> the circuits when I removed the charger.
> Thanks
> Ted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <schmoboy(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re E-bus alternate feed |
Check out this archived message...
<http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=45044701?KEYS=bus_architecture?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=4?SERIAL=11075730968?SHOWBUTTONS=YES>
There's a reference to the following sketch...
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/E-BusFatFeed.gif>
-Sean
pfsiegel wrote:
>
> Bob et al,
>
> Thanks for taking interest in my question.
>
> I am using a modified version of your Z-14 dual battery, dual alternator
> split bus scheme.
>
>
> I started out with the best intentions of keeping the e-bus load to the
> bare minimums. But...
>
> My nav-com will come from a Garmin 430 which has GPS as well as
> VOR/localizer/ glide slope.
>
> Of course I included panel lights.
>
> My horizon information comes from a Grand Rapids EFIS system.
>
> Since I don't have a directional gyro in my all electric panel, the
> heading information comes from the True Track digital autopilot.
>
> If I have a copilot in the back seat of my F1 Evo (tapered wing version
> of the Harmon Rocket) I'd want to communicate in an emergency, so I
> included the audio panel/intercom.
>
> And I know you don't suggest it, but I left the transponder on the E-bus
> too.
>
> That is how I ended up with so much load on my e-bus. I'm not too
> worried about the high load because I have the backup alternator and
> backup battery.
>
> My real question is how to protect my alternate feeds from the always
> hot battery busses?
>
> The switch to select alternate feed is a 20 amp circuitbreaker switch.
> But that still leaves the wire from the always hot bus to the circuit
> breaker switch unprotected.
>
> I have considered placing an inline fuse or possibly a current limiter
> right at the always hot bus in the wire path of the wire to the circuit
> breaker switch.
>
> One drawback is that I cannot "turn off" power in the wire that goes to
> the circuit breaker switch, which of course I could do with a relay used
> right at the always hot battery bus.
>
> The primary reason for the always hot bus is to have a bullet proof
> supply the electronic ignition.
>
> I sure appreciate your thoughts on this matter!
>
> Paul
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
>
>
>Guys, I have a motorglider with two batteries, a 17ah. for the starter and
>engine electrics, and a 7.2 ah. for the avionics. The batteries are on
>separate circuits, so I have to charge them separately. I think both
>batteries are sealed lead acid. Is it o.k. to charge the batteries in
>parallel or do they have to be isolated with diodes? I was thinking of
>using a plug to charge both batteries at the same time but would separate
>the circuits when I removed the charger.
Each battery needs a separate disconnect switch, relay, contactor.
While the alternator is operating, you can have as many batteries
as you wish all tied together through their various closed disconnect
device (See Z-figures for multiple battery applications). When the
ACTIVE NOTIFICATI0N OF LOW VOLTAGE warning comes on, you separate
each battery off to its own task by repositioning the disconnect
devices.
If you're talking about ground maintenance charging, you could
arrange a charging connector with a ground pin and separate, fused
leads to each of the batteries. For two batteries, you need three
pins. Have the mating connector for the charger harness common the
two batteries together while the charger is plugged in.
As I write these words, there are 5 SVLA instrumentation batteries
ranging from 17 a.h. to 32 a.h. all paralleled and all being supported
on a single Battery Tender Junior. See:
http://batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_3
Search Ebay for "battery tender" junior for some volume dealer
pricing of these products.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
>
>I would recommend that you charge them separately. Charging them in parallel
>will result in one battery being charged before the other, but a charging
>voltage will be maintained on that battery until the 2nd battery is done
>charging & the charger shuts down. One battery will likely overcharge every
>time, and its life might be shortened, if it doesn't leak or explode.
These concerns are borne of decades of urban legend and hangar
myths. SVLA batteries are not subject to leaking, exploding or
any sort of overstress or hazard because one battery achieves
full charge before the other(s) achieve full charge.
>I've seen this become a problem even when the batteries were the same size. I
>would also recommend that even a single battery not be left unattended in the
>plane while charging. The chance of a leak or fire scares me too much.
There are chargers and then there are CHARGERS. It's so inexpensive
to acquire and utilize a real charger for battery storage and maintenance
that there's no real excuse for not doing it. I don't think Walmart
has a single charger on the shelf these days that cannot be left
connected and plugged in indefinitely.
I've supplied about a half dozen members of my family with smart
chargers and we have three or four of them in use in our shop. But in
any case, concerns about leaks and fires on SVLA batteries due to
charging issues are not founded in the physics of how these critters
behave.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>My Gamin transponder says to avoid mounting the antennae within three feet
>of a comm antennae. I have the bent whip style comm ant and was wondering
>if the 3 foot is measured from the transponder ant (ball), to the tip of
>the comm ant or the base of the comm ant.
>Thanks in advance,
Pick the one that's most attractive to you . . . it will be
fine. That "3-foot" number has more to do with CYA than
real engineering concerns.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re E-bus alternate feed |
>
> Bob et al,
>
>Thanks for taking interest in my question.
>
>I am using a modified version of your Z-14 dual battery, dual alternator
>split bus scheme.
Okay, if you have Z-14, why do you have an e-bus? The whole
purpose of the Z-14 architecture was to eliminate the need
for an e-bus.
>I started out with the best intentions of keeping the e-bus load to the
>bare minimums. But...
>
>My nav-com will come from a Garmin 430 which has GPS as well as
>VOR/localizer/ glide slope.
>
>Of course I included panel lights.
>
>My horizon information comes from a Grand Rapids EFIS system.
>
>Since I don't have a directional gyro in my all electric panel, the
>heading information comes from the True Track digital autopilot.
>
>If I have a copilot in the back seat of my F1 Evo (tapered wing version
>of the Harmon Rocket) I'd want to communicate in an emergency, so I
>included the audio panel/intercom.
>
>And I know you don't suggest it, but I left the transponder on the E-bus
>too.
>
>That is how I ended up with so much load on my e-bus. I'm not too
>worried about the high load because I have the backup alternator and
>backup battery.
>
>My real question is how to protect my alternate feeds from the always
>hot battery busses?
The best way to protect alternate feeds in Z-14 is to take them out.
They add no value and as you've discovered, create new system design
and integration concerns.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter shunt wiring, Part II |
>
>The ammeters (2 of them) were purchased from Van's, I presume they are
>analog, and 50 mA rating if I remember correctly. They were wired just like
>that shown in Aeroelectric Connection (in the alternator output line). The
>shunts were purchased from B&C (It's been 2 years since they were wired) One
>is connected to show current flow from alt#1 (a B&C externally regulated
>unit), the other from alt#2 (an SD-8); no switching is therefore needed for
>individual readings.
>
>Bob, you ask if these are electronic ammeters. What other kind of ammeter is
>there besides electronic?
There are ammeters . . . electro-mechanical things with springs, pointers,
coils of wire and then there are electronic displays architectured
and scaled to display amps when reading the voltage drop across an
ammeter shunt. Electronic displays have vulnerabilities to external
stimulus that is not shared by real ammeters.
The symptoms you describe really raise some questions about correct
wiring of the instruments. The ammeter reading voltage drop
across a shunt is about as bullet-proof as you can get when
correctly wired.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Dufresne <robertdufresne(at)videotron.ca> |
| Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
Aircraft Rotary Engine Newsletter moderated by Paul Lamar
..... Who is Paul Lamar?
..... Want to join the Newsletter?
http://www.rotaryeng.net/
try this site for a rotary newsletter
Robert
-----Message d'origine-----
De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Mark R
Steitle
Envoy: 2 novembre, 2005 11:44
: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Objet: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
Try www.flyrotary.com
I have never found the fly rotary list -- got a link?
Mark Supinski
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | shielded wire installation |
| From: | Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.com |
11/02/2005 06:29:31 PM
greetings
Stupid questions from the electrically challenged:
Recently received a strobe system from Creativ Air. The bundled wire
supplied for the task includes a bare wire that I presume is associated
with the surrounding thin foil shield. No instructions provided for the
bare wire. Does it get connected to ground along with the normal insulated
ground wire or just float unconnected? If connected to ground, does it
matter whether just one end or both ends of it are connected? And exactly
what am I actually protecting myself from here? Isnt shielding pretty
limited in what it can do?
One more: the provided individual strobe wires are 22 awg. Seemed small
to me, but I believe thats good for 5 amps, and looking at the system specs
and the wire chart, that should work for this system. But dont the strobe
trigger wires have really high voltage, maybe even in the low thousands of
volts? Isnt there a limit to the voltage a wire can carry as well as the
amps? Should I be concerned?What say the list?
Yes, I can e-mail Creativ Air, but Im betting the list will be faster.
Heck, maybe someone else will benefit as well.
thanks guys
Erich Weaver
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
On 02-Nov-05 14:37 Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
> Just bought one for $24 plus shipping off EBAY...My little harbor
> freight charger was still about .25V low for a continuous trickle to my
> Odyssey battery even after 2 days.
>
> Thanks...Spend the money do the right thing and forget about it!...:)
>
> Frank
The Harbor Freight "battery maintainer" is adjustable, you know. At
least the old models were although a friend recently bought one that had
a fixed voltage output. The unit is nothing more than a current-limited
constant-voltage power supply using a 7805 regulator and a handful of
discrete components.
Adjusting it involves opening up the housing and tweaking a small pot
while measuring the no-load output on an accurate voltmeter. 13.5 volts
is about right IMO.
Seems like a lot of value for about $10 on sale.
--
Joe
Joe Dubner
Long-EZ 821RP
Lewiston, ID
http://www.nicon.org/chapter328/jd/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil White" <philwhite9(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 Layout Help |
Mark: If you read Bob's book, he recommends that the fuse block not be
accessible while airborne. Attempting to fix an electrical problem
while flying is inviting trouble. The philosophy is to put a circuit
breaker for the alternator Field on the panel, then hide the fuse block
under the panel where you aren't tempted to get to it while flying.
Several builders have mounted their fuse blocks on swing-down plates
below the panel area, so it is easy to see and change fuses on the
ground. Panel swings up out of the way for flight.
You mention having a 13B in your Mustang. I haven't seen you post on
the Rotary engine forum (Rotary motors in aircraft
). Where are you located?
Phil RV-10 under construction with Mazda 20B to be installed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: shielded wire installation |
>
>greetings
>
>Stupid questions from the electrically challenged:
>
>Recently received a strobe system from Creativ Air. The bundled wire
>supplied for the task includes a bare wire that I presume is associated
>with the surrounding thin foil shield. No instructions provided for the
>bare wire. Does it get connected to ground along with the normal insulated
>ground wire or just float unconnected? If connected to ground, does it
>matter whether just one end or both ends of it are connected? And exactly
>what am I actually protecting myself from here? Isnt shielding pretty
>limited in what it can do?
As long as the shield conductor is not ALSO being used as
a power carrying conductor, the CURRENT that will flow in the
shield is exceedingly small . . .
Shielding is a propagation breaker for ELECTROSTATICALLY conducted
noise which is present only in proximity to high voltage, fast moving
waveforms (like those found in the strobe wiring). It has no
value for de-coupling MAGNETICALLY conducted noise (twisted pairs
do that best).
The bare wire under the shield IS indeed intended for making
electrical connection to the aluminum foil shield. You attach
this wire (or an extension of this wire) to the case of the
strobe at the mounting feet. Having said that, should you allow
this shield to go un-connected, it's unlikely that you'll perceive
any increase in strobe noise in any other system . . . the wires that
are typically bundled with strobe heads are not potential victims.
>One more: the provided individual strobe wires are 22 awg. Seemed small
>to me, but I believe thats good for 5 amps, and looking at the system specs
>and the wire chart, that should work for this system. But dont the strobe
>trigger wires have really high voltage, maybe even in the low thousands of
>volts? Isnt there a limit to the voltage a wire can carry as well as the
>amps? Should I be concerned?What say the list?
Wire AWG sets the temperature rise on a wire when carrying steady state
current. The current limit is set by how much heat the INSULATION can
stand -OR- your limits on system voltage drop at the current of
interest . . .
whichever is more restrictive. The INSULATION is also tasked with
keeping the volts inside the wire. The popular M22759/16 Tefzel wire
is rated for 600V service. I don't recall but the Beldfoil shielded
twisted trio used in most strobe systems is rated for 600V too . . .
voltage to power the strobe bulb is on the order of 300V. The
bulb may have a peak power draw on the order of 1000 to 2000 watts.
A 2,000 watt peak power draw is about 6.6 amps at 300v, well within
the capabilities of the 22AWG wire.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Now you tell me...:)
Guess I have a HF battery charger for the lawn tractor now!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe
Dubner
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charging two batteries
On 02-Nov-05 14:37 Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
> --> (Corvallis)"
>
> Just bought one for $24 plus shipping off EBAY...My little harbor
> freight charger was still about .25V low for a continuous trickle to
> my Odyssey battery even after 2 days.
>
> Thanks...Spend the money do the right thing and forget about it!...:)
>
> Frank
The Harbor Freight "battery maintainer" is adjustable, you know. At
least the old models were although a friend recently bought one that had
a fixed voltage output. The unit is nothing more than a current-limited
constant-voltage power supply using a 7805 regulator and a handful of
discrete components.
Adjusting it involves opening up the housing and tweaking a small pot
while measuring the no-load output on an accurate voltmeter. 13.5 volts
is about right IMO.
Seems like a lot of value for about $10 on sale.
--
Joe
Joe Dubner
Long-EZ 821RP
Lewiston, ID
http://www.nicon.org/chapter328/jd/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Charging two batteries |
>
>
>Just bought one for $24 plus shipping off EBAY...My little harbor
>freight charger was still about .25V low for a continuous trickle to my
>Odyssey battery even after 2 days.
>
>Thanks...Spend the money do the right thing and forget about it!...:)
>
>Frank
I would counsel adoption of some term other than "trickle charge"
for the modern maintenance of batteries. I days of yore, a "trickle
charge" was defined as some steady state, CONSTANT CURRENT charge
that was deemed too low to be detrimental to the battery but sufficient
to offset the battery's inherent self-discharge rate. Flooded batteries
had about a .5 to 1% per day self discharge rate. So a 30 a.h. car
battery REALLY needed 5 to 20 MILLIAMPS of input current to offset
internal losses.
"Trickle chargers" were typically in the .5 to 1.0 ampere range.
So, under trickle-charge maintenance, a flooded battery could be
expected to consume water which was easily replaced.
The SVLA/RG battery cannot be so maintained and a true trickle-
charge will cook them. So, a new approach is needed. If you set
a fully charged batter on the shelf and come back to measure its
terminal voltage after 24 hours, it will be on the order of 12.8
volts. Okay, this is the voltage at which internal losses are being
supplied. Suppose we hook a 13.0 volt power supply to the battery.
This voltage is way too low to do any chemical conversions, i.e.
CHARGE the battery. However, it make the power supply the higher
and therefore dominant power source in the system . . . it WILL
assume ALL parasitic loads in the system thereby causing all
self discharging of the battery to cease.
The battery maintainer product DO have a charge mode. The
Battery Tender Juniors will put out about .75A in the charge
mode. I use them to charge my really big instrumentation batteries
after a test run . . . it might take it a day or two to
bring up a depleted battery . . . but then it drops to 13.0
CONSTANT VOLTAGE maintenance mode and sustains the battery
in a ready state indefinitely . . . but it's NOT a trickle-
charger.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
>
>
>Now you tell me...:)
>
>Guess I have a HF battery charger for the lawn tractor now!
>
>Frank
>
>
>The Harbor Freight "battery maintainer" is adjustable, you know. At
>least the old models were although a friend recently bought one that had
>a fixed voltage output. The unit is nothing more than a current-limited
>constant-voltage power supply using a 7805 regulator and a handful of
>discrete components.
>
>Adjusting it involves opening up the housing and tweaking a small pot
>while measuring the no-load output on an accurate voltmeter. 13.5 volts
>is about right IMO.
>
>Seems like a lot of value for about $10 on sale.
I've tested a couple of HF "maintainers" and only one of the three
was truly suited to the task. The acid test is to come back in two or
three days after the battery was placed in 'storage' on the maintainer
and measure the battery terminal voltage. It should be greater than 13.0
and less than 13.5 with 13.0 being the preferred end of the spectrum.
Two devices I tested were running 14.2 and 13.8 volts. The 13.8 would
probably have been okay but the 14.2 was definitely too high. If you
have some control over the product via potentiometer adjustment, great.
Shoot for 13.0
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
I am assuming you measure the battery volts with the charger/maintainer
still connected after two or three days??
Thanks
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charging two batteries
-->
(Corvallis)"
>
>
>Now you tell me...:)
>
>Guess I have a HF battery charger for the lawn tractor now!
>
>Frank
>
>
>The Harbor Freight "battery maintainer" is adjustable, you know. At
>least the old models were although a friend recently bought one that
>had a fixed voltage output. The unit is nothing more than a
>current-limited constant-voltage power supply using a 7805 regulator
>and a handful of discrete components.
>
>Adjusting it involves opening up the housing and tweaking a small pot
>while measuring the no-load output on an accurate voltmeter. 13.5
>volts is about right IMO.
>
>Seems like a lot of value for about $10 on sale.
I've tested a couple of HF "maintainers" and only one of the three
was truly suited to the task. The acid test is to come back in two or
three days after the battery was placed in 'storage' on the
maintainer
and measure the battery terminal voltage. It should be greater than
13.0
and less than 13.5 with 13.0 being the preferred end of the spectrum.
Two devices I tested were running 14.2 and 13.8 volts. The 13.8 would
probably have been okay but the 14.2 was definitely too high. If you
have some control over the product via potentiometer adjustment,
great.
Shoot for 13.0
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Samlex Power Supply |
| From: | Jon & Kathryn Hults <legacy(at)speedband.com> |
Bob,
I bought one of the Samlex 13.8 VDC power supplies you had on the list a few
weeks ago to hook up to my airplane during install/troubleshooting/training
of my avionics.
My question is: It didn't come with output cables, so what sort of
cables/wires should I use and where on the airplane should I attach them to
power the airplane's electrical system? Attach to the fat wires on the
battery? Disconnect the battery first?
Thought I'd ask before just connecting it with all those radios at stake!
Thanks,
Jon Hults
Lancair Legacy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Suzuki Samuri Alternator (NEW) |
>From: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net>
>Subject: Suzuki Samuri Alternator
>
>
>Charlie Kuss: How does anyone check the rectifier diodes? I ask this
>because I have looked at a failed alternator (different type '77 honda
>civic) and what I think might be the diodes seem to be soldered to the
>surrounding casing material. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
>
>Indiana Larry
Larry:
I can help you with info on how to check, repair, replacement parts but my first
suggestion is just replace it with a new unit.
BUY NEW:
I can tell you where to get a BRAND NEW 55 amp ND (Suzuki Samurai/Sidekick, Chev
Sprint) alternator for $95 plus shipping. Write me for info if you want. By
the time you buy individual components (retail) and spend the time replacing parts,
it is easier buy new if you can get a good price. This price is cheaper
than a rebuild . The list on a rebuild is almost $200, the $95 is a sale price.
This is what I have bought them for before. This is a NEW Nippondenso alternator.
Sometimes new alternators come on eBay also.
Most of us can't buy wholesale direct from large wholesalers of parts, unless you
know where to look. One place, I know of, will sell to individuals (without
hassle). They are the ones I referred to above, who have new units for a great
price from time to time. It is worth a try. No guarantee's since it was a October
sale, but it's worth a call. They repeat sales all the time.
Even if you can buy and replace a few parts, you have an alternator with other
old components of unknown service time (e.g., bearings). I also don't think you
should just willy-nilly replace parts on a guess.
Let me know if you want a new unit. Also did you have a OV module tied to the thing?
IF YOU WANT TO REPAIR HERE IS SOME INFO
Here is a great source of info on the web on how to trouble shoot the charging
system on a Toyota, which happens to be a ND alternator of similar design.
http://www.autoshop101.com/
(Under Technical Articles, Item 08: Toyota Charging Systems)
You can test the diodes (rectifier) can be checked with an ohmmeter. Many Ohmmeters
have a diode check function (see: ref page 19). You are just checking for
an open or short. A better test is spinning the unit under load with an oscilloscope
to determine rectifier state (see: ref above page 18).
PART NUMBERS
Here are some part numbers and can can go to a local auto electric shop. Remember
there are after market and original ND parts. Large after market part manufactures
are Transpo, ASE and Laster.
I assume you have a:
Alternator - Nippondenso IR/IF
55 Amp, 12 Volt, CW, 1-Groove Pulley
Used On:
(1988-87) Chevrolet Sprint 1.0L
(1995-86) Suzuki Samurai 1.3L
(1989) Suzuki Sidekick 1.3L
Replaces:
Nippondenso 100211-141, 100211-155, 100211-407
Lester Nos:
14684
-Replacement Rectifier unit:
31-8200 Rectifier
For:
Nippondenso 45-60 Amp IR/IF Alternators w/ 100mm OD Stator
Used On:
(1998-85) Suzuki, Toyota
Replaces:
Nippondenso 021580-3130, -4340
Unit Nos:
Nippondenso 100211-155, 100211-407
Lester Nos:
14684
Dimensions:
88mm OD M6 x 1.0 Battery Terminal
Notes:
Similar to 31-8221 except position of stator lead mtg. holes not interchangeable
Components:
32-8909 Negative Diode
32-8910 Positive Diode
Features:
Renard 20 Amp/200 Volt, dish diodes
Also consider:
INR724 Rectifier, Transpo
-OR-
INR724 (Ref. Num. 31-8200) Rectifier (Transpo part number)
For:
Nippondenso 45-60 Amp IR/IF Alternators w/ 100mm OD Stator
Used On:
(1998-85) Suzuki, Toyota
Replaces:
Nippondenso 021580-3130, -4340
Toyota 27357-11170, -72150
Unit Nos:
Nippondenso 100211-155, 100211-407
Lester Nos:
14684
Dimensions:
90mm OD M6 x 1.0 x 44mm Battery Terminal
Features:
Transpo 8-dish diodes, 40 amp
(The INR724 appears to be an upgraded after market unit).
-Replacement Regulator:
5-8205-3 (Ref. Num. IN221-1) Regulator
12 Volt, A-Circuit, D-IG-L Terminals
For:
Nippondenso IR/IF Alternators
Used On:
(1995-84) Chevrolet, Geo, Honda, Isuzu, Suzuki
Replaces:
Nippondenso 126000-0410, -0430
Suzuki 32500-82610
Unit Nos:
Nippondenso 100211-141
Lester Nos:
14684Dimensions:
64mm Mtg. Length
Notes:
L-terminal is an output terminal. Similar to 35-8226-1 except 35-8226-1 w/ LRC
feature.
Components:
35-8205-5 Repair Circuit
Features:
Short-circuit protection of lamp and field circuits
Also consider:
35-8205-5 Repair Circuit
-Aftermarket REGULATOR UNIT-
Regulator 12 Volt, A-Circuit, D-IG-L Terminals
For:
Nippondenso IR/IF Alternators
Used On:
(1995-86) Daihatsu, Suzuki
Replaces:
Nippondenso 126000-0720, -0721, -1330
Suzuki 32500-86510, -86511
Unit Nos:
Nippondenso 100211-155, 100211-407
Lester Nos:
14684
Dimensions:
57.5mm Mtg. Length
Notes:
L-terminal is not an output terminal. Similar to 35-8216 except 35-8216 L-terminal
is an output terminal.
Components:
35-8215-5 Repair Circuit
Features:
OE approved Short-circuit protection of field circuit
Also consider:
35-8215-5 Repair Circuit
IN253 Regulator, Transpo
THE ENTIRE BRUSH ASSY
Brush Holder Assy. (holder, cover, brushes)
For:
Nippondenso IR/IF Alternators
Used On:
(2004-86) Acura, Chevrolet, Geo, Honda, Isuzu, Jaguar, Lexus, Mazda, Toyota, Volvo
Replaces:
Nippondenso 021620-2530, 021620-2720
Toyota 27370-42010, 27370-75060
Lester Nos:
13684
Notes:
Used w/ 41-82306 seal, 41-82101 gasket
Components:
38-8201 Brush
46-82400 Plastic Cover
Features:
Best Value
Also consider:
39-8203 Brush Holder Assy
IF YOU JUST WANT TO REPLACE BRUSHES
Brush 12 Volt
For:
Nippondenso ER/IF, IR/IF Alternators
Used On:
(2002-83) Acura, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Daihatsu, Dodge, Eagle, Geo, Honda, Isuzu,
Jaguar, Jeep, Lexus, Mazda, Plymouth, Sterling, Suzuki, Toyota, Volvo; Toyota
Lift Truck
Lester Nos:
13684
Dimensions:
5mm T x 7mm W x 15mm L x 48mm LL
Good Luck Larry. I think new is the way to go. It will likely be the last alternator
you buy for this plane. Again suggest you keep some ducted air directed
toward the back, DON'T cycle the alternator ON/OFF while under load (spinning)
and if at all possible buy new units as opposed to rebuilds.
George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
>
>
>I am assuming you measure the battery volts with the charger/maintainer
>still connected after two or three days??
>
>Thanks
Yes. The point is to confirm that it's a REAL maintainer
and NOT a trickle-charger (or poorly crafted maintainer).
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Samlex Power Supply |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I bought one of the Samlex 13.8 VDC power supplies you had on the list a few
>weeks ago to hook up to my airplane during install/troubleshooting/training
>of my avionics.
>
>My question is: It didn't come with output cables, so what sort of
>cables/wires should I use and where on the airplane should I attach them to
>power the airplane's electrical system? Attach to the fat wires on the
>battery? Disconnect the battery first?
>
>Thought I'd ask before just connecting it with all those radios at stake!
You need some nice soft, fat-wire but smaller than 4AWG welding
cable (although the welding cable is cheap, easy to get and
easy to work with). When I was selling that supply, I also offered
a cable assembly that could be used to covey the 25A from power
supply to aircraft. I suggested that the power supply be attached
to the airplane alternator's B-lead connection. This way, the power
supply emulates the alternator even to the extent that it will charge
the battery and allow the entire system to be up and running as if
it were being supplied by an alternator running with just enough RPM
to put out 25A. I fabricated this jumper from a 10 AWG speaker cable
with to conductors paired like lamp cord. Very flexible and pleasant
to work with.
I even suggested that one might wish to build up a little switching
box with an AC outlet on it and a short AC power cord. The box contained
a 12v relay good for 120VAC at 10A or so. The relay is used to control
120 VAC going into the power supply. The relay's coil leads are brought
out to a connector and wired to the airplane such that the relay
coil can be energized from the same switch that turns the alternator
on or off from the panel.
Except for available power output, this arrangement provides
an AC mains supplied, alternator emulator that permits things
to work in from the pilot's seat just as if the engine were
running. One builder wrote me telling about a potentiometer he
found inside his power supply that allowed adjustment of the
output voltage up to 14.2 . . . cool but not terribly necessary.
These supplies are pretty bullet proof, well regulated and very well
filtered. You can run ship's goodies from these supplies with or
without the battery in the system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Understanding Alternators |
As I promised for last weekend, here are the first
pages of an introduction leading up to a series
of repeatable experiments designed to discover
the operating characteristics of alternators.
As always, considered critical review welcome.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/alternators/UA/Alternators_1.html
I've got the next 4 pages roughed out. Will try to get
them up in the next week or so.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Understanding Alternators |
Bob;
Being VERY picky, but you asked for criticism. I believe in your second paragraph
of this article where you state "Further, even the largest automotive alternators
require the brushes to carry more than 3 or four amps." , that you actually
mean "no more than 3 or 4 amps."
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Understanding Alternators
>
>
> As I promised for last weekend, here are the first
> pages of an introduction leading up to a series
> of repeatable experiments designed to discover
> the operating characteristics of alternators.
>
> As always, considered critical review welcome.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/alternators/UA/Alternators_1.html
>
> I've got the next 4 pages roughed out. Will try to get
> them up in the next week or so.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
I agree with Frank Hinde's sentiment: thanks for the education, Bob.
My comments follow this segment of your message.
On 03-Nov-05 07:34 Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
[snip]
>
> I've tested a couple of HF "maintainers" and only one of the three
> was truly suited to the task. The acid test is to come back in two or
> three days after the battery was placed in 'storage' on the maintainer
> and measure the battery terminal voltage. It should be greater than 13.0
> and less than 13.5 with 13.0 being the preferred end of the spectrum.
>
> Two devices I tested were running 14.2 and 13.8 volts. The 13.8 would
> probably have been okay but the 14.2 was definitely too high. If you
> have some control over the product via potentiometer adjustment, great.
> Shoot for 13.0
FWIW and just as a data point, I hooked up a 12V 4AH SLA battery to a
regulated power supply set to 13.5V (to simulate a Harbor Freight
"battery maintainer"). The battery was fully charged but had been
sitting around for a couple of weeks. After a few seconds the battery
drew about 40 ma. (.01C). After about an hour the charge rate was down
to 10 ma. (.0025C ?) and appears to be "trickling" downward (pun
intended :-).
This is the point where I'd normally remove it from the "charger" (or at
my first noticing this near-zero charge rate if it was on the charger
overnight). But I'd feel comfortable about leaving it there
indefinitely in accordance with the chart printed on the battery housing:
Application: Voltage: Current:
----------- ------- -------
Standby 13.5 - 13.8 No Limit
Cycle Use 14.4 - 15.0 0.3 Capacity
This may or may not be representative of SLA batteries intended to start
and power our aircraft but it's how I typically charge my non-aircraft
SLA batteries.
--
Joe
Joe Dubner
Long-EZ 821RP
Lewiston, ID
http://www.nicon.org/chapter328/jd/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill and Marsha" <docyukon(at)ptcnet.net> |
| Subject: | kt 78 single row plug and contacts |
Does anyone know the Molex part nombers for the plug and contacts for a KT
78 Transponder? Thanks Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Understanding Alternators |
>
>
>Bob;
>
>Being VERY picky, but you asked for criticism. I believe in your second
>paragraph of this article where you state "Further, even the largest
>automotive alternators require the brushes to carry more than 3 or four
>amps." , that you actually mean "no more than 3 or 4 amps."
>
>Bob McC
Yes! Thank you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: help the non-believers |
>
>http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=3810
>
>(see the last few posts regarding strobe & antenna runs in the same conduit)
>
>They're implying that I got "lucky" having run my landing light wires,
>position light wires, and shielded strobe wires right next to my shielded
>RG400 antenna runs in the same conduit run. I have no strobe noise in my
>system and they think it's because I am lucky, rather than because I
>properly shielded, grounded shields properly, and grounded my audio systems
>and other toys properly (as per Bob's and others' good advice).
>
>I'm not an electrical engineer and have limited understanding of "invisible"
>concepts such as induced noise, right hand rule, whatever. I don't know the
>deep technical explanation behind why shielding works, nor can I fully
>explain to a non-believer why something that is not properly shielded may be
>noisy. But I have a feeling it's not luck at work in my case.
Engineers that depend on luck don't stay employed very long.
>Maybe Bob or somebody knowledgeable on this list can poke in on this thread
>and be the voice of reason. If you can't post there, feel free to email me
>(here or off-list, doesn't matter) and I'll re-post your wisdom on the VAF
>Forums.
I was tempted . . . but getting involved in lots of different
forums that soaked up so many hours of not-so-spare time. I think
I'll pass on this one! There are probably dozens of forums that
propagate poor science . . . can't help them all.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
>
>FWIW and just as a data point, I hooked up a 12V 4AH SLA battery to a
>regulated power supply set to 13.5V (to simulate a Harbor Freight
>"battery maintainer"). The battery was fully charged but had been
>sitting around for a couple of weeks. After a few seconds the battery
>drew about 40 ma. (.01C). After about an hour the charge rate was down
>to 10 ma. (.0025C ?) and appears to be "trickling" downward (pun
>intended :-).
Good data! I just checked one of my big-honker 32 a.h. batteries
that's been setting on a Battery Tender for several weeks. Terminal
voltage with Battery Tender connected was 13.1 volts. I checked the
"charging current" out of the battery tender and it was stroking along
at the grand total of 560 MICROAMPS! I think this is a good measurement
of that battery's internal self-discharge current. If allowed to set
un-supported, we can guess that it would toss off about 1/2 it's
capacity in about 3.6 years.
>This is the point where I'd normally remove it from the "charger" (or at
>my first noticing this near-zero charge rate if it was on the charger
>overnight). But I'd feel comfortable about leaving it there
>indefinitely in accordance with the chart printed on the battery housing:
>
>Application: Voltage: Current:
>----------- ------- -------
>Standby 13.5 - 13.8 No Limit
>Cycle Use 14.4 - 15.0 0.3 Capacity
>
>This may or may not be representative of SLA batteries intended to start
>and power our aircraft but it's how I typically charge my non-aircraft
>SLA batteries.
There isn't a great deal of difference in the various
"styles" of Lead-Acid batteries. There was a bit of a dust
up over mis-interpreted specifications a few months back that
prompted this critical review of some published documents:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Deltran_Odyssey_Floobydust.html
Battery Tender type gizmos will top-off an SLA battery at the
"cycle use" voltage levels and then drop back to a maintenance
level that is below that of the "standby" levels. See:
http://batterytender.com/includes/languages/english/resources/Product_Info_BT_Junior.pdf
Slick gizmos.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Welding Cable AWG 2 |
I think the big issue with jumper cable grade of wire is its
insulation, the insulation may be tough but it probably would burn
pretty well. I wouldn't use it for that reason alone, buy welding
cable it made for hard use and resist burning. Also jumper cable
tends to use larger stands twisted into a conductor where welding
cable is fine strands proving be more tolerant to vibration and
flexing that takes place on aircraft.
jerb
At 11:39 PM 10/30/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>Listers
>
>Just a thought.
>Would the cable from high quality Jump Start leads be suitable for the short
>runs to the starter etc in place of welding cable.
>Ther are good and bad jump start cables. I have a good one and would be a
>good source if suitable.
>
>Chris Byrne
>Sydney
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | help the non-believers |
conduit)
I was tempted . . . but getting involved in lots of different
forums that soaked up so many hours of not-so-spare time. I think
I'll pass on this one! There are probably dozens of forums that
propagate poor science . . . can't help them all.
Bob . . .
I suggest you get off the other forums and spend all you time on this one!
After all, this list is the bomb!
Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | help the non-believers |
><PLaurence@the-beach.net>
>
>
>conduit)
>
> I was tempted . . . but getting involved in lots of different
> forums that soaked up so many hours of not-so-spare time. I think
> I'll pass on this one! There are probably dozens of forums that
> propagate poor science . . . can't help them all.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>I suggest you get off the other forums and spend all you time on this one!
>After all, this list is the bomb!
I don't presently participate on any other forums . . . I
did once and the task grew to the point where I was
sifting 200-300 emails a day for electrical issues.
The task was more complicated when the same discussion
was being cross-posted on several lists.
Matt set up the AeroElectric-List several years ago
to help minimize the no-value-added efforts. I dropped
all other forum subscriptions at that time. Hence
my reluctance to get involved on any other forum
irrespective of what's going on. I depend on your
participation in airframe specific lists to suggest
that folks bring their electrical/avionics issues here.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Recommended chargers for Odyssey batteries |
Good morning,
One of my clients has cited your webpage at . . .
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/charging.htm
. . . where you state:
"There is another class of chargers that is designed
specifically to maintain the battery in a high state
of charge. These chargers, such as the 1.25 amp
Battery Tender from Deltran are not capable of charging
a deeply discharged ODYSSEY battery. This is due to
the fact that these chargers have very low output power.
They should only be used either to continuously
compensate for parasitic losses or to maintain a trickle
charge on a fully charged stored battery."
I've searched my sources on lead-acid battery technologies
and found no references to charging efficiencies
base on charging rate. While the small chargers cited
are limited in their power output, my present sense is that
this only extends the time required for a given battery
to reach full charge.
Your webpage implies that an Odyssey battery can only
be efficiently charged if the re-charge time is on the
order of 2 hours.
Can you enlighten me on the supporting physics of
your assertions? I do a lot of work with batteries
in the aircraft industries and I'm often called upon to
offer advice on battery operation and maintenance.
If there's an important point of physics in battery operation
that I'm unaware of, I'd be very pleased if you could
point me in the right direction for acquiring that
knowledge.
Regards,
Bob Nuckolls
AeroElectric Connection
Wichita, KS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 Layout HelpZ-19 Layout HelpZ-19 Layout Help |
Frank,
I have been considering fuel systems for sometime now and yours was one of the
versions considered.
I have a problem with the way yours works because eventually, when you run one
tank dry, you will have given up fuel pump redundancy. You can work around this
by having a policy (placard) about leaving a mandatory minimum amount of fuel
in a tank when switching, but it's still left up to the pilot. I would just
not be able to live with myself if I unwillingly became a glider pilot, with an
L/D of car keys, because of a dead fuel pump on the one tank that had gas.
58 years of suffering humiliating consequences from thinking that I am smarter
than the average bear (and bears are not that smart) , I want a fuel system that
is idiot-proof and that means both fuel pumps available to pump the last drop
of fuel that I think is in the tanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com> |
Would it be possible to convert a 28V instrument to run on 12V, If so what
will it involve?
Thanks
[]
Ron Triano
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Huft <aflyer(at)lazy8.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Recommended chargers for Odyssey batteries |
version=3.0.3
Recently, I hooked up a Deltran charger (the junior, 0.75 Amp) to my
wife's car, as I did all last winter. This time however, I left the hood
open, with the underhood light on. The light draws more than the charger
can source, so, when I returned a week later, the battery was dead. No
surprising.
The surprise, though, was that the charger was also dead. I took it
apart, and saw that the output transistor, attached to a large heatsink,
was a TO-220 package. There was no sign of an internal fuse (there is
one in the battery lead, which was still good), so I assume there is a
solid state type current limit circuit in the base of the output
transistors. Having designed these circuits (I am assuming that it is
not a crowbar type, but just a cheapo limiter), I know that they work
well for momentary shorts, but if the short persists, the output
transistor has to dissipate the rated current (.75A) times the voltage
(14) totaling 10.5 Watts. The TO-220 package is usually a 5 Watt deal
even with the heatsink, so I am thinking that is what killed the
charger. I confess I have not tested anything...just returned the charger.
Similarly, I would think a completely dead battery would present the
same situation to the charger. So, I am thinking maybe the problem is
not related to the battery at all, but rather to the charger????????
John Huft
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 28V Turn & Bank |
Have you tried it? I have one that seems to run just fine on 12 volts.
Slightly lower rpm and the current is not much different either.
Ken
Ron wrote:
>
>Would it be possible to convert a 28V instrument to run on 12V, If so what
>will it involve?
>Thanks
>[]
>Ron Triano
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 28V Turn & Bank |
>Would it be possible to convert a 28V instrument to run on 12V, If so what
>will it involve? Thanks Ron Triano
Ron,
Best method:
1) Put the 28V unit on eBay. Sell it.
2) Find a 12V unit on eBay. Buy it.
Works like magic!
Also works:
http://www.astrodyne.com Good DC-DC converters for little money. And they
deal in one's. ....Still this introduces a whiney little DC-DC converter
into your electronics and may create some noise, adds weight, reduces
reliability, etc. We all make these choices.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja(at)starpower.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Parts to build the OV protector |
Bob,
I happen to have on hand several of the MBS4991 (also 4992) units and
the schematic for use in the crowbar device. Is there any downside to
building the crowbar with these units instead of the updated system
shown at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/Crowbar_C.pdf
Jim McCulley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
(SNIP)
>> Your looking at a very old version which utilized a part
>> now obsolete. The latest version will be published later
>> today or tomorrow. I've updated the schematics and BOM
>> and thought I'd got them posted but an astute reader
>> pointed out the error of that impression a couple of
>> days ago. I'll try to get caught up this evening. (SNIP)
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 28V Turn & Bank |
For Eric Jones ...
Thanks for the three sample pieces of copper coated aluminum (CCA). I'm
impressed with the light weight and the tough insulation.
If I use CCA from battery (behind the firewall) to starter (about 6 feet)
Lycoming 360, can I go this distance with a cable smaller than #4?
Jerry Grimmonpre'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Parts to build the OV protector |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I happen to have on hand several of the MBS4991 (also 4992) units and
>the schematic for use in the crowbar device. Is there any downside to
>building the crowbar with these units instead of the updated system
>shown at:
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/Crowbar_C.pdf
Nope. That's the preferred, lowest parts count method. In
fact, B&C uses that part to this day having purchased a life-time
buy of the parts before the supply dried up.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 28V Turn & Bank |
>
>Have you tried it? I have one that seems to run just fine on 12 volts.
>Slightly lower rpm and the current is not much different either.
>Ken
>
>Ron wrote:
But the motor does run slower. You may find that the
instrument's calibration is decidedly different. The
device might now be calibrated for a 5-6 minute turn instead
of a 3 minute turn. Worth investigating while airborne.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> batteries |
| Subject: | Re: Recommended chargers for Odyssey |
batteries
>
> Recently, I hooked up a Deltran charger (the junior, 0.75 Amp) to my
>wife's car, as I did all last winter. This time however, I left the hood
>open, with the underhood light on. The light draws more than the charger
>can source, so, when I returned a week later, the battery was dead. No
>surprising.
>
>The surprise, though, was that the charger was also dead. I took it
>apart, and saw that the output transistor, attached to a large heatsink,
>was a TO-220 package. There was no sign of an internal fuse (there is
>one in the battery lead, which was still good), so I assume there is a
>solid state type current limit circuit in the base of the output
>transistors. Having designed these circuits (I am assuming that it is
>not a crowbar type, but just a cheapo limiter), I know that they work
>well for momentary shorts, but if the short persists, the output
>transistor has to dissipate the rated current (.75A) times the voltage
>(14) totaling 10.5 Watts. The TO-220 package is usually a 5 Watt deal
>even with the heatsink, so I am thinking that is what killed the
>charger. I confess I have not tested anything...just returned the charger.
>
>Similarly, I would think a completely dead battery would present the
>same situation to the charger. So, I am thinking maybe the problem is
>not related to the battery at all, but rather to the charger????????
Great data point John. I just took one of my Deltran juniors and
set it up on the bench with a capacitor and sufficient load to emulate
a perpetually dead battery. Let's see what happens.
These are "smart chargers" . . . they produce a much more sophisticated
charging profile that could not be accomplished with a simple "limiter".
See:
http://batterytender.com/includes/languages/english/resources/Product_Info_BT_Junior.pdf
If your autopsy didn't reveal a very high parts count, perhaps
they've used a micro-controller to do the "smarts" . . . It's possible do
dance very fancy footwork in the digital world at very low cost. I have
a couple of products under development that will use the PIC12F675
microcontroller . . .
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41190c.pdf
This critter has a 10-bit a/d converter, reset generator and clock on
on-board. Sells for about $1 in quantity.
There's no good reason to do anything in discrete parts. Even $20 coffee
makers are processor controlled.
Your experience with an extraordinary stress on the Battery Tender is
worth understanding. We'll see how my experiment goes and then if I kill
the critter, I'll tear it apart and see what the autopsy reveals. Perhaps
we can offer some good feedback to the folks at Deltran. Thanks for
bringing your experience to the List.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Repeatable Experiment: Risks to Deltran Battery Tender |
Jr.
Question:
Will the Deltran Battery Tender Jr. be at risk for long term
connection to a battery that cannot be charged and/or has some
fixed load across the battery that exceeds the rated output
current of the charger?
The experiment . . .
Step 1: Connect Deltran Battery Tender Jr. across a 10 ohm resistor
paralleled with a 10,000 uF capacitor. Plug in wall.
Observation 1: Note that the Battery Tender does not come alive.
Hypothesis A: Circuitry in the charger senses whether or not
there is some semblance of a battery connected. Zero volts
could be either a dead short or a battery that is totally trashed.
The circuit is designed not to attempt a recharge cycle under
these conditions.
Step 2. Temporarily connect 12v battery across the load array.
Observation 2: Charger's red light comes on indicating that it
has gone to work.
Step 3. Connect voltmeter across the load array.
Observation 2: Voltmeter shows 10.2 volts across the load array.
Deduction: 10.2v at 10 ohms is right at 1.0 amp. The Deltran Battery
Tender Jr. is rated at 0.75A. Obviously, there are no features that
limit current to the rated value. This initial test setup has already
overloaded the device by 33%.
Step 4. Wait.
(Watch this space)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Battery Tender Jr. |
| Subject: | Re: Repeatable Experiment: Risks to Deltran |
Battery Tender Jr.
>
>
>Question:
>
>Will the Deltran Battery Tender Jr. be at risk for damage due to
>long term connection to a battery that cannot be charged and/or
>has some fixed load across the battery that exceeds the rated output
>current of the charger?
>
>The experiment . . .
>
>Step 1: Connect Deltran Battery Tender Jr. across a 10 ohm resistor
>paralleled with a 10,000 uF capacitor. Plug in wall.
>
>Observation 1: Note that the Battery Tender does not come alive.
>
>Hypothesis A: Circuitry in the charger senses whether or not
>there is some semblance of a battery connected. Zero volts
>could be either a dead short or a battery that is totally trashed.
>The circuit is designed not to attempt a recharge cycle under
>these conditions.
>
>Step 2. Temporarily connect 12v battery across the load array.
>
>Observation 2: Charger's red light comes on indicating that it
>has gone to work.
>
>Step 3. Connect voltmeter across the load array.
>
>Observation 2: Voltmeter shows 10.2 volts across the load array.
>
>Deduction: 10.2v at 10 ohms is right at 1.0 amp. The Deltran Battery
>Tender Jr. is rated at 0.75A. Obviously, there are no features that
>limit current to the rated value. This initial test setup has already
>overloaded the device by 33%.
>
>Step 4. Wait.
Observation: After an hour of operation, the case, particularly next to
the wall was pretty toasty. (Toasty: engineering term for
operating temperatures between "warm to touch" and
"starting to stink". The hottest surfaces were sides
closest to the wall outlet.
Step 5. Add thermocouple to hottest surface and continue testing
Observation: 10 minutes after restart, case temperature is up to
65C.
Step 6. Wait.
(watch this space)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 28V Turn & Bank |
The calibration seemed to be still in the ballpark while "flying" around
my basement with a stopwatch...
Certainly adequate for basic needle and ball work. I was surprised how
little the rpm seemed to slow when dropping the voltage. It sits beside
a vacuum unit so I'll get a good comparison next year. For $25. this was
one of the best values in the plane and I was delighted not to need to
build a 28 volt power supply. I have no idea whether this would be
common or whether I just got lucky.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Have you tried it? I have one that seems to run just fine on 12 volts.
>>Slightly lower rpm and the current is not much different either.
>>Ken
>>
>>Ron wrote:
>>
>>
>
> But the motor does run slower. You may find that the
> instrument's calibration is decidedly different. The
> device might now be calibrated for a 5-6 minute turn instead
> of a 3 minute turn. Worth investigating while airborne.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net> |
hi all,
i am looking for a source of ''cannon'' elect. fittings. i understand this is
military stuff. my turn coor. came fitted for this typa of elect. connection and
i need a 90 deg. fitting for my limited clearance.
thanks, bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ectric-List: |
Morning, Bob...
Cannon makes electrical terminals and connection components for industry
as well...they also have mil spec products but that may not be needed in
your case.
Most good electrical supply houses stock them. A good place to start
looking for the part you are looking for would be Cannon's home page, here:
www.peigenesis.com/ittCannon_products.html
Then, when you know the part number you are looking for, you can google
it and find a supplier.
Or, someone else reading this may know EXACTLY what you are looking for
and save you the search time!
Harley Dixon
bob noffs wrote:
>
>hi all,
> i am looking for a source of ''cannon'' elect. fittings. i understand this is
military stuff. my turn coor. came fitted for this typa of elect. connection
and i need a 90 deg. fitting for my limited clearance.
> thanks, bob noffs
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Right angle "cannon" connector |
>
>hi all,
> i am looking for a source of ''cannon'' elect. fittings. i understand
> this is military stuff. my turn coor. came fitted for this typa of elect.
> connection
The term "cannon connectors" was coined to describe the MS3100 series
connectors that showed up in great volumes in WWII.
By the time I first hammered on airplanes at Boeing in '61, the
new "cannon" connector was a miniature connector that utilized
crimped, removable pins. I don't think these caught on. They're
not in the current catalog.
Bottom line is that ITT-Cannon (and many others) make a variety
of connectors that have all been referred to as "cannon" connectors
at some point in time.
Can you find a part number stamped on the connector you're trying
to replace or the connector it mates with?
Here's a catalog of current offerings by ITT-Cannon. Start with
the MS3102 series on p167.
http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/catalogs/full/CO_milaero.pdf
Theres an intermatable 3450 series on p188.
>and i need a 90 deg. fitting for my limited clearance.
You may find that the exact connector you need is long lead
time or not even available as a catalog item for quantities
of one. The last ditch solution may be to remove the backshell
from the connector you have and use some E-6000 to provide
strain relief by "potting" the wires to the connector. Not
terribly elegant but very suited to the task.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wickert <jimw_btg(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ectric-List: |
Bob
Jim Wickert here, you can get Cannon Mil spec connectors from Newark Electronics. I have an older cat and they are listed on page 1265 but you can find Newark at www.Newark.com. Also I am not sure where you are located but if you have a Motion Industries, or a Minarik Automation & control, located near you they will have them as well. I believe Allied Electronics has Mil spec connectors not sure if they have Cannon?
Happy building
Jim Wickert
Vision Vair #159
-----Original Message-----
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)newnorth.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List:
hi all,
i am looking for a source of ''cannon'' elect. fittings. i understand this is
military stuff. my turn coor. came fitted for this typa of elect. connection and
i need a 90 deg. fitting for my limited clearance.
thanks, bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Understanding Alternators |
Hi Bob & List,
I was out of town for a while, but just got done reading your work in
progress on understanding alternators. Thank You! A fresh review of basic
physics with a slant towards aviation applications like this give me better
understanding & more confidence in what I'm doing.
As for corrections, I've only got two small typos:
-First page, first paragraph, fifth sentence.....change from 'This photo is
illustrates.....' to 'This photo illustrates'
-Fourth page, below the graph, under the heading 'Minimum Speed for
Regulation': Last two sentences of first paragraph.....review for intended
meaing. I believe you wanted to last two sentences to be one. I don't
think you meant to leave 'As RPM increases from Zero.' as one sentence.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
I'm getting ready to connect my battery to the electrical system & need
advice on two simple matters:
- Any ideas on where to get a Variable voltage device? My strobe power
supply has been setting for a few years. As such, Whelen's tech strongly
suggested that I connect it to a variable voltage device (Isn't that a
variac?), set it at 3 Volts for 15 minutes, 6 Volts for 15 minutes, 9 Volts
for 15 minutes & finally 12 Volts. As a side question out of curiosity,
what does this do?
- I'm looking for a 0.5 amp 'blade type' (ATC?) fuse to power my Ipod. The
smallest one I see on the B&C website is 1.0 amps. Any suggestions? Are
auto fuses the same size? Any reason not to use one from an auto parts
store?
Thanks,
Grant
________________________________________________________________________________
A Variac is a variable transformer, an AC device. You need a variable
DC power supply. Likely sources are eBay or your local electronic
supply. I searched Radio Shack. I would have expected them to have
one, but all I could find were fixed voltage supplies.
I have no idea why they want you to do that unless it might have
something to do with conditioning electrolytic capacitors in the unit.
Bob W.
"Tinne maha" wrote:
>
> I'm getting ready to connect my battery to the electrical system & need
> advice on two simple matters:
>
> - Any ideas on where to get a Variable voltage device? My strobe power
> supply has been setting for a few years. As such, Whelen's tech strongly
> suggested that I connect it to a variable voltage device (Isn't that a
> variac?), set it at 3 Volts for 15 minutes, 6 Volts for 15 minutes, 9 Volts
> for 15 minutes & finally 12 Volts. As a side question out of curiosity,
> what does this do?
>
>
> - I'm looking for a 0.5 amp 'blade type' (ATC?) fuse to power my Ipod. The
> smallest one I see on the B&C website is 1.0 amps. Any suggestions? Are
> auto fuses the same size? Any reason not to use one from an auto parts
> store?
>
> Thanks,
> Grant
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
http://www.bob-white.com
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (projected engine start in November)
Custom Cables for your rotary installation -
http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
________________________________________________________________________________
Have you tried Aircraft Spruce, Chief, etc.? Spruce carries:
CANNON PLUG MS3106A-10SL-3S $11.20
CABLE CLAMP MS3057-4A $2.95
It's what I bought when I found my T/C wired without a plug. They may
very well have the right angle as well. At least you can use the
straight p/n to find the right angle in the same series.
Greg Young
>
> -->
>
> hi all,
> i am looking for a source of ''cannon'' elect. fittings. i
> understand this is military stuff. my turn coor. came fitted
> for this typa of elect. connection and i need a 90 deg.
> fitting for my limited clearance.
> thanks, bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Boddicker <trumanst(at)netins.net> |
Grant,
The folks from Whelen told me to do the same. It brings the capacitors (sp)
back to a usable state. If you put the full voltage to them it may do harm.
I did each step up for one hour, not 15 min. That was the recomendation from
Whelen, and it worked just fine. I borrowed a voltage controller from a
friend. The variac I used to hot wire was 110 V. The unit you need for this
is 12V.
Kevin
on 11/6/05 5:18 PM, Tinne maha at tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com wrote:
>
> I'm getting ready to connect my battery to the electrical system & need
> advice on two simple matters:
>
> - Any ideas on where to get a Variable voltage device? My strobe power
> supply has been setting for a few years. As such, Whelen's tech strongly
> suggested that I connect it to a variable voltage device (Isn't that a
> variac?), set it at 3 Volts for 15 minutes, 6 Volts for 15 minutes, 9 Volts
> for 15 minutes & finally 12 Volts. As a side question out of curiosity,
> what does this do?
>
>
> - I'm looking for a 0.5 amp 'blade type' (ATC?) fuse to power my Ipod. The
> smallest one I see on the B&C website is 1.0 amps. Any suggestions? Are
> auto fuses the same size? Any reason not to use one from an auto parts
> store?
>
> Thanks,
> Grant
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
Tinne maha wrote:
>
>I'm getting ready to connect my battery to the electrical system & need
>advice on two simple matters:
>
>- Any ideas on where to get a Variable voltage device? My strobe power
>supply has been setting for a few years. As such, Whelen's tech strongly
>suggested that I connect it to a variable voltage device (Isn't that a
>variac?), set it at 3 Volts for 15 minutes, 6 Volts for 15 minutes, 9 Volts
>for 15 minutes & finally 12 Volts. As a side question out of curiosity,
>what does this do?
>
>
>- I'm looking for a 0.5 amp 'blade type' (ATC?) fuse to power my Ipod. The
>smallest one I see on the B&C website is 1.0 amps. Any suggestions? Are
>auto fuses the same size? Any reason not to use one from an auto parts
>store?
>
>Thanks,
> Grant
>
Others have answered about the variac.
Normally, fuses in the aircraft (or home, for that matter) are intended
to protect wire, not devices. The Ipod won't draw more current than it
was designed for unless it's already broken. The ATC fuses are a bit
more reliable than the old glass fuses, but 'nuisance' blowing can be a
problem with extremely low current fuses. Why not just fuse at normal
rating for that wire?
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bbradburry(at)allvantage.com> |
| Subject: | Apollo GX65 GPS/Comm |
If anyone is interested in a good GPS/Comm, my GX65 is listed for sale on
Ebay. The Item number: 4587492679.
Thanks,
Bill Bradburry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>Bob,
>I am looking at figure z-11. What is your opinion on putting two
>contactors forward of the firewall one for the main bus and the other for
>the emer. bus.
Why? What kind of loads are you putting on the endurance bus? You
should bring these loads down to the absolute minimum for the purpose
of conserving battery energy during alternator out ops. Adding a contactor
to switch the alternate feed path goes against the grain of energy
conservation,
adds complexity (reduces reliablity).
>I would still use the isolation diode. The only differecne that I see is
>that I would have two unfused wires running into the cabin instead of
>one. I am building a RV6 with the battery on the front side of the firewall.
Okay. Do you plan a battery bus? Are there any planned accessories
that would benefit from an always hot battery bus? You could bring
the battery bus feeder into the cockpit as an unfused. It would be
relatively small gage (16 should do it). Take some extra pains for
mechanical protection. Take the e-bus alternate feed from a 7A or
smaller fuse through the alternate feed switch.
>If a bridge is used for isolation should two diodes by put in parallel?
Wouldn't hurt but not necessary.
>Can you suggest a isolation diode that easier to mount (at least two holes)?
Don't know of any. If you want two holes, bond the diode Bridge to an
aluminum mounting plate (thick and hard . . . 0.060 or better, T4 or
better) with JB weld. Put as many mounting holes in base as you like.
Millions have been mounted with the single hole for over 40 years.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Turn Coordinator Connector |
>
>Have you tried Aircraft Spruce, Chief, etc.? Spruce carries:
>CANNON PLUG MS3106A-10SL-3S $11.20
>CABLE CLAMP MS3057-4A $2.95
>It's what I bought when I found my T/C wired without a plug. They may
>very well have the right angle as well. At least you can use the
>straight p/n to find the right angle in the same series.
>
>Greg Young
>
> >
> > -->
> >
> > hi all,
> > i am looking for a source of ''cannon'' elect. fittings. i
> > understand this is military stuff. my turn coor. came fitted
> > for this typa of elect. connection and i need a 90 deg.
> > fitting for my limited clearance.
> > thanks, bob noffs
Bob,
My apologies. I didn't pick up on the turn coordinator
requirement and thought your request was more generic. If
the "straight" connector is indeed an MS3106B10SL3S then
a right angle version of the same connector is a
MS3108B10SL3S which http://Newark.com shows in stock as their catalog
number 96J9697. Check the dimensions for this connector
on page 178 of
http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/catalogs/full/CO_milaero.pdf
where over all dim L3 is on the order of 2.2 inches (plus seating
height when installed on the turn coordinator. Will this be
sufficiently small to make your clearance requirements?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Bench and ground power supply |
Just ran across this item on the 'net.
http://www.web-tronics.com/25ampswitpow.html
This supply is adjustable to 9-15 volts meaning that
you can set it to emulate an alternator at 14.2 volts.
Better yet, it's metered.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>A Variac is a variable transformer, an AC device. You need a variable
>DC power supply. Likely sources are eBay or your local electronic
>supply. I searched Radio Shack. I would have expected them to have
>one, but all I could find were fixed voltage supplies.
>
>I have no idea why they want you to do that unless it might have
>something to do with conditioning electrolytic capacitors in the unit.
>
>Bob W.
That's the idea. I'm surprised they're still recommending this
procedure. It was a good idea 40 years ago but modern electrolytics
don't seem to benefit from it. In any case, the well fitted workbench
should have some kind of power supply for testing things. We have
more kinds of power supplies in our shop than any other piece of
test equipment. A good value in a metered bench supply is illustrated
on ebay right now. Search on item 7560349791.
You should be able to find a 0-30v, 3A, metered, current limited
power supply from a variety of sources for under $100.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Understanding Alternators |
>
>Hi Bob & List,
>
>I was out of town for a while, but just got done reading your work in
>progress on understanding alternators. Thank You! A fresh review of basic
>physics with a slant towards aviation applications like this give me better
>understanding & more confidence in what I'm doing.
>
>As for corrections, I've only got two small typos:
>
>-First page, first paragraph, fifth sentence.....change from 'This photo is
>illustrates.....' to 'This photo illustrates'
>
>-Fourth page, below the graph, under the heading 'Minimum Speed for
>Regulation': Last two sentences of first paragraph.....review for intended
>meaing. I believe you wanted to last two sentences to be one. I don't
>think you meant to leave 'As RPM increases from Zero.' as one sentence.
Fixed 'em. Thanks for the heads-up. My boss is mumbling something
about sending me off to 'fix' an airplane that probably can't be
fixed. Might get to spend a few days on airplanes and in hotels
and get the next few pages ready to publish.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Risks to Deltran Battery Tender Jr. |
>Question:
>
>Will the Deltran Battery Tender Jr. be at risk for damage due to
>long term connection to a battery that cannot be charged and/or
>has some fixed load across the battery that exceeds the rated output
>current of the charger?
>
This question offers and excellent opportunity to discuss
thermal modeling of an electronic device and to introduce
the concept of thermal resistance. To begin the discussion,
it was useful to conduct a simple test on the product.
Let's gather some rudimentary data on a Battery Tender Jr.
under extra-ordinary stress and see what we can deduce about
its operation and probability of survival:
The experiment . . .
Step 1: Connect Deltran Battery Tender Jr. across a 10 ohm resistor
paralleled with a 10,000 uF capacitor. Plug in wall.
Observation 1: Note that the Battery Tender does not come alive.
Hypothesis A: Circuitry in the charger senses whether or not
there is some semblance of a battery connected. Zero volts
could be either a dead short or a battery that is totally trashed.
The circuit is designed not to attempt a recharge cycle under
these conditions.
Step 2. Temporarily connect 12v battery across the load array.
Observation 2: Charger's red light comes on indicating that it
has gone to work.
Step 3. Connect voltmeter across the load array.
Observation 2: Voltmeter shows 10.2 volts across the load array.
Deduction: 10.2v at 10 ohms is right at 1.0 amp. The Deltran Battery
Tender Jr. is rated at 0.75A. Obviously, there are no features that
limit current to the rated value. This initial test setup has already
overloaded the device by 33%.
Step 4. Wait.
Observation 3: After an hour of operation, the case, particularly
next to the wall was pretty toasty. (Toasty: engineering term for
operating temperatures between "warm to touch" and "starting to
stink". The hottest surfaces were sides closest to the wall outlet.
Step 5. Add thermocouple to hottest surface and continue testing
Observation: 10 minutes after restart, case temperature is up to
65C.
Step 6. Wait.
Observation 4: After continuous operation overnight, the output
current from the Battery Tender was still holding at 1.05 amps.
The case temperature had stabilized at 69 degrees C in a 23 degree
C environment.
What might we deduce from this little bit of data and how
does it offer insight into the failure reported by John Huft.
Let's review his observations:
>
> Recently, I hooked up a Deltran charger (the junior, 0.75 Amp) to my
>wife's car, as I did all last winter. This time however, I left the hood
>open, with the underhood light on. The light draws more than the charger
>can source, so, when I returned a week later, the battery was dead. No
>surprising.
>
>The surprise, though, was that the charger was also dead. I took it
>apart, and saw that the output transistor, attached to a large heatsink,
>was a TO-220 package. There was no sign of an internal fuse (there is
>one in the battery lead, which was still good), so I assume there is a
>solid state type current limit circuit in the base of the output
>transistors. Having designed these circuits (I am assuming that it is
>not a crowbar type, but just a cheapo limiter), I know that they work
>well for momentary shorts, but if the short persists, the output
>transistor has to dissipate the rated current (.75A) times the voltage
>(14) totaling 10.5 Watts. The TO-220 package is usually a 5 Watt deal
>even with the heatsink, so I am thinking that is what killed the
>charger. I confess I have not tested anything...just returned the charger.
>
>Similarly, I would think a completely dead battery would present the
>same situation to the charger. So, I am thinking maybe the problem is
>not related to the battery at all, but rather to the charger????????
John's questions about over-heating of the major power handling
device in the charger is a good one. By the way John, if you still
have the smoked charger, I'd sure like to get my hands on it. Since
I didn't smoke the charger I used in the experiment, I'm reluctant
to saw it open for more detailed inspection . . . but if your dead
one is available, it would add some additional insight into the
functionality and vulnerabilities of this product.
Why didn't my Battery Tender smoke? Perhaps John's environment
was warmer. Perhaps his particular battery/load combination pulled
the charger's output lower than my experiment (10 volts) and caused
it to get hotter.
Given the temperature rise we measured, I'd estimate that my
experiment forced the Battery Tender into an internal dissipation
level on the order of 10 watts. It seems likely that long term
operation in this condition might put the critter at risk for
smoke.
I note that Deltran's instruction sheet for this charge does not
speak against charging large batteries (even a heavily discharged
battery will rise above 11 volts in under an hour). I've used
my Deltran BT Jr.s to recharge all sizes of batteries in every
state of discharge with good results.
I don't think we've learned anything from this experiment that
suggests my confidence and recommendations for use of the Deltran
BT Jr. needs modification. Our mini-investigation suggests that
the continuous, unintended loading of the battery was the proximate
cause of failure . . . and not a deficiency in the design of the
charger.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition Problem |
>
>
>Listers,
>
> I've got two ElectroAir Electronic Ignition Systems in my RV-6A. While
>they operate fine once the engine has been started, I'm having a problem
>starting the engine. The ignition systems seem to be in and out of a reset
>mode during the time the starter is running.
> My electrical system has two batteries. One battery is used exclusively
>to power the ignitions during engine start. Both ignitions are enabled
>during the time the starter is ON.
> I've looked at the voltage supplies to both ignitions (with a sampling
>oscilloscope) during the time the starter is running. I've also looked at
>the timing sensor signal. Both traces showed no noise or abnormalities.
>Hence the confusion.....
> My question to the list is, has anyone else had this type of problem (with
>dual electronic ignitions), and more specifically, with ElectroAir
>Ignitions?
If the input voltage is isolated from the starter system
then perhaps the problem is due to some other noise source.
Ground loop in trigger detectors? it would take some experiments
to chase this out. Are you using the single point ground system
recommended in the 'Connection. Do I presume correctly that you've
talked with Jeff Rose and he had no suggestions?
> I'm about to give up on the dual Electronic ignitions, and put an impulse
>Mag in just so the engine starts reliably.... I have ordered two "P" Mags.
>Will I have the same problems with these??????
It's a whole new product specifically designed for aviation
and very unlikely to suffer similar problems. Being a new product
they might have their own, new, growing pains type problems but
I would expect them to be diagnosed and corrected with dispatch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Durakovich <ddurakovich(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | David Clark ENC connector |
Anyone have a part number on the quick connector that David Clark uses on their
ENC headsets (ie; H20-10X) ? It's a 10 pin mini circular plug with a quick connect
(air hose type pull back) feature.
Thanks,
Dave Durakovich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Recommended chargers for Odyssey batteries |
11/07/2005 08:05:18 AM,
Serialize by Router on MailServ58-US/AUS/H/NIC(653FP1HF290|September 14,
2005) at
11/07/2005 08:05:26 AM,
Serialize complete at 11/07/2005 08:05:26 AM
Don't know if this applies to the Junior models or not, but the "Battery Tender
PLUS" models that I have (5+ yrs old) require that the battery have a minimum
voltage present before it will "turn on". This was spelled out in the manual.
Regards,
/\/elson
On Sat, 5 Nov 2005, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Recently, I hooked up a Deltran charger (the junior, 0.75 Amp) to my
>> wife's car, as I did all last winter. This time however, I left the hood
>> open, with the underhood light on. The light draws more than the charger
>> can source, so, when I returned a week later, the battery was dead. No
>> surprising.
>>
>> The surprise, though, was that the charger was also dead. I took it
>> apart, and saw that the output transistor, attached to a large heatsink,
>> was a TO-220 package. There was no sign of an internal fuse (there is
>> one in the battery lead, which was still good), so I assume there is a
>> solid state type current limit circuit in the base of the output
>> transistors. Having designed these circuits (I am assuming that it is
>> not a crowbar type, but just a cheapo limiter), I know that they work
>> well for momentary shorts, but if the short persists, the output
>> transistor has to dissipate the rated current (.75A) times the voltage
>> (14) totaling 10.5 Watts. The TO-220 package is usually a 5 Watt deal
>> even with the heatsink, so I am thinking that is what killed the
>> charger. I confess I have not tested anything...just returned the charger.
>>
>> Similarly, I would think a completely dead battery would present the
>> same situation to the charger. So, I am thinking maybe the problem is
>> not related to the battery at all, but rather to the charger????????
>
>
> Great data point John. I just took one of my Deltran juniors and
> set it up on the bench with a capacitor and sufficient load to emulate
> a perpetually dead battery. Let's see what happens.
>
> These are "smart chargers" . . . they produce a much more sophisticated
> charging profile that could not be accomplished with a simple "limiter".
>
> See:
>
> http://batterytender.com/includes/languages/english/resources/Product_Info_BT_Junior.pdf
>
> If your autopsy didn't reveal a very high parts count, perhaps
> they've used a micro-controller to do the "smarts" . . . It's possible do
> dance very fancy footwork in the digital world at very low cost. I have
> a couple of products under development that will use the PIC12F675
> microcontroller . . .
>
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41190c.pdf
>
> This critter has a 10-bit a/d converter, reset generator and clock on
> on-board. Sells for about $1 in quantity.
>
> There's no good reason to do anything in discrete parts. Even $20 coffee
> makers are processor controlled.
>
> Your experience with an extraordinary stress on the Battery Tender is
> worth understanding. We'll see how my experiment goes and then if I kill
> the critter, I'll tear it apart and see what the autopsy reveals. Perhaps
> we can offer some good feedback to the folks at Deltran. Thanks for
> bringing your experience to the List.
>
> Bob . . .
--
~~ ** ~~ If you don't think to well, then don't think to much. ~~ ** ~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Huft <aflyer(at)lazy8.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Risks to Deltran Battery Tender Jr. |
version=3.0.3
Well, Bob, that was a fun test.
Thermally, your 10 Volts at 1 Amp was the same power level as 14 V at
.75 A, so I guess the 70 dC temp was within design specs, and we know
that is within the range for power transistors.
I think my test was even more severe, since as the battery gradually ran
down, the current drain went up, and especially if the current limit is
software controlled, is the opposite of what the designer would expect,
and may well have fooled the unit. I would even say it was 'unfair' to
the charger, and I don't think any less of Deltran for the failure.
I still have the charger, and will take a look at it this morning, and
will either report results or send it to you if I don't find anything.
John
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >Question:
> >
> >Will the Deltran Battery Tender Jr. be at risk for damage due to
> >long term connection to a battery that cannot be charged and/or
> >has some fixed load across the battery that exceeds the rated output
> >current of the charger?
> >
> This question offers and excellent opportunity to discuss
> thermal modeling of an electronic device and to introduce
> the concept of thermal resistance. To begin the discussion,
> it was useful to conduct a simple test on the product.
> Let's gather some rudimentary data on a Battery Tender Jr.
> under extra-ordinary stress and see what we can deduce about
> its operation and probability of survival:
>
> The experiment . . .
>
> Step 1: Connect Deltran Battery Tender Jr. across a 10 ohm resistor
> paralleled with a 10,000 uF capacitor. Plug in wall.
>
> Observation 1: Note that the Battery Tender does not come alive.
>
> Hypothesis A: Circuitry in the charger senses whether or not
> there is some semblance of a battery connected. Zero volts
> could be either a dead short or a battery that is totally trashed.
> The circuit is designed not to attempt a recharge cycle under
> these conditions.
>
> Step 2. Temporarily connect 12v battery across the load array.
>
> Observation 2: Charger's red light comes on indicating that it
> has gone to work.
>
> Step 3. Connect voltmeter across the load array.
>
> Observation 2: Voltmeter shows 10.2 volts across the load array.
>
> Deduction: 10.2v at 10 ohms is right at 1.0 amp. The Deltran Battery
> Tender Jr. is rated at 0.75A. Obviously, there are no features that
> limit current to the rated value. This initial test setup has already
> overloaded the device by 33%.
>
> Step 4. Wait.
>
> Observation 3: After an hour of operation, the case, particularly
> next to the wall was pretty toasty. (Toasty: engineering term for
> operating temperatures between "warm to touch" and "starting to
> stink". The hottest surfaces were sides closest to the wall outlet.
>
> Step 5. Add thermocouple to hottest surface and continue testing
>
> Observation: 10 minutes after restart, case temperature is up to
> 65C.
>
> Step 6. Wait.
>
> Observation 4: After continuous operation overnight, the output
> current from the Battery Tender was still holding at 1.05 amps.
> The case temperature had stabilized at 69 degrees C in a 23 degree
> C environment.
>
> What might we deduce from this little bit of data and how
> does it offer insight into the failure reported by John Huft.
> Let's review his observations:
> >
> > Recently, I hooked up a Deltran charger (the junior, 0.75 Amp) to my
> >wife's car, as I did all last winter. This time however, I left the hood
> >open, with the underhood light on. The light draws more than the charger
> >can source, so, when I returned a week later, the battery was dead. No
> >surprising.
> >
> >The surprise, though, was that the charger was also dead. I took it
> >apart, and saw that the output transistor, attached to a large heatsink,
> >was a TO-220 package. There was no sign of an internal fuse (there is
> >one in the battery lead, which was still good), so I assume there is a
> >solid state type current limit circuit in the base of the output
> >transistors. Having designed these circuits (I am assuming that it is
> >not a crowbar type, but just a cheapo limiter), I know that they work
> >well for momentary shorts, but if the short persists, the output
> >transistor has to dissipate the rated current (.75A) times the voltage
> >(14) totaling 10.5 Watts. The TO-220 package is usually a 5 Watt deal
> >even with the heatsink, so I am thinking that is what killed the
> >charger. I confess I have not tested anything...just returned the charger.
> >
> >Similarly, I would think a completely dead battery would present the
> >same situation to the charger. So, I am thinking maybe the problem is
> >not related to the battery at all, but rather to the charger????????
>
> John's questions about over-heating of the major power handling
> device in the charger is a good one. By the way John, if you still
> have the smoked charger, I'd sure like to get my hands on it. Since
> I didn't smoke the charger I used in the experiment, I'm reluctant
> to saw it open for more detailed inspection . . . but if your dead
> one is available, it would add some additional insight into the
> functionality and vulnerabilities of this product.
>
> Why didn't my Battery Tender smoke? Perhaps John's environment
> was warmer. Perhaps his particular battery/load combination pulled
> the charger's output lower than my experiment (10 volts) and caused
> it to get hotter.
>
> Given the temperature rise we measured, I'd estimate that my
> experiment forced the Battery Tender into an internal dissipation
> level on the order of 10 watts. It seems likely that long term
> operation in this condition might put the critter at risk for
> smoke.
>
> I note that Deltran's instruction sheet for this charge does not
> speak against charging large batteries (even a heavily discharged
> battery will rise above 11 volts in under an hour). I've used
> my Deltran BT Jr.s to recharge all sizes of batteries in every
> state of discharge with good results.
>
> I don't think we've learned anything from this experiment that
> suggests my confidence and recommendations for use of the Deltran
> BT Jr. needs modification. Our mini-investigation suggests that
> the continuous, unintended loading of the battery was the proximate
> cause of failure . . . and not a deficiency in the design of the
> charger.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | Risks to Deltran Battery Tender Jr. |
I have been looking for a charger/maintainer per the following requirements:
-be able to recharge a fully discharged battery
-be able to maintain a battery; be able to switch between pulsing, current
and voltage modes
-have short protection preferably electronic, no fuses to replace)
-no current drain when connected to battery but no AC in (unplugged or
power outage)
-operate on various voltages
After looking at various options, the Soneil 1205 SR (for 12 V batteries)
and 2403 SR (for 24 V batteries) seemed to fulfill the above requirements.
URL:
http://www.soneil.com/Completesets/SPEC1205SR(REV%2003).17-Jun-04.pdf
I have been using it for about 2 years without interruption (when the plane
is on the ground that is :) and am very pleased.
The battery (even one that was over 4 years old and abused) responds and
charges fully (albeit slower as compared to a large charger) as long as
there is some minimal voltage left in it - the charger begins to charge
current.
The unit also has an "inhibit lead", which provides an inhibit signal to
the vehicle's controller, so that the controller stops the vehicle from
moving when the charger is plugged to an AC source.
Bob et all - any comments, feedback, experience with this unit?
Rumen
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from Robert L. Nuckolls, III; Date: 10:18 PM
>Question:
>
>Will the Deltran Battery Tender Jr. be at risk for damage due to
>long term connection to a battery that cannot be charged and/or
>has some fixed load across the battery that exceeds the rated output
>current of the charger?
>
This question offers and excellent opportunity to discuss
thermal modeling of an electronic device and to introduce
the concept of thermal resistance. To begin the discussion,
it was useful to conduct a simple test on the product.
Let's gather some rudimentary data on a Battery Tender Jr.
under extra-ordinary stress and see what we can deduce about
its operation and probability of survival:
The experiment . . .
Step 1: Connect Deltran Battery Tender Jr. across a 10 ohm resistor
paralleled with a 10,000 uF capacitor. Plug in wall.
Observation 1: Note that the Battery Tender does not come alive.
Hypothesis A: Circuitry in the charger senses whether or not
there is some semblance of a battery connected. Zero volts
could be either a dead short or a battery that is totally trashed.
The circuit is designed not to attempt a recharge cycle under
these conditions.
Step 2. Temporarily connect 12v battery across the load array.
Observation 2: Charger's red light comes on indicating that it
has gone to work.
Step 3. Connect voltmeter across the load array.
Observation 2: Voltmeter shows 10.2 volts across the load array.
Deduction: 10.2v at 10 ohms is right at 1.0 amp. The Deltran Battery
Tender Jr. is rated at 0.75A. Obviously, there are no features that
limit current to the rated value. This initial test setup has already
overloaded the device by 33%.
Step 4. Wait.
Observation 3: After an hour of operation, the case, particularly
next to the wall was pretty toasty. (Toasty: engineering term for
operating temperatures between "warm to touch" and "starting to
stink". The hottest surfaces were sides closest to the wall outlet.
Step 5. Add thermocouple to hottest surface and continue testing
Observation: 10 minutes after restart, case temperature is up to
65C.
Step 6. Wait.
Observation 4: After continuous operation overnight, the output
current from the Battery Tender was still holding at 1.05 amps.
The case temperature had stabilized at 69 degrees C in a 23 degree
C environment.
What might we deduce from this little bit of data and how
does it offer insight into the failure reported by John Huft.
Let's review his observations:
>
> Recently, I hooked up a Deltran charger (the junior, 0.75 Amp) to my
>wife's car, as I did all last winter. This time however, I left the hood
>open, with the underhood light on. The light draws more than the charger
>can source, so, when I returned a week later, the battery was dead. No
>surprising.
>
>The surprise, though, was that the charger was also dead. I took it
>apart, and saw that the output transistor, attached to a large heatsink,
>was a TO-220 package. There was no sign of an internal fuse (there is
>one in the battery lead, which was still good), so I assume there is a
>solid state type current limit circuit in the base of the output
>transistors. Having designed these circuits (I am assuming that it is
>not a crowbar type, but just a cheapo limiter), I know that they work
>well for momentary shorts, but if the short persists, the output
>transistor has to dissipate the rated current (.75A) times the voltage
>(14) totaling 10.5 Watts. The TO-220 package is usually a 5 Watt deal
>even with the heatsink, so I am thinking that is what killed the
>charger. I confess I have not tested anything...just returned the charger.
>
>Similarly, I would think a completely dead battery would present the
>same situation to the charger. So, I am thinking maybe the problem is
>not related to the battery at all, but rather to the charger????????
John's questions about over-heating of the major power handling
device in the charger is a good one. By the way John, if you still
have the smoked charger, I'd sure like to get my hands on it. Since
I didn't smoke the charger I used in the experiment, I'm reluctant
to saw it open for more detailed inspection . . . but if your dead
one is available, it would add some additional insight into the
functionality and vulnerabilities of this product.
Why didn't my Battery Tender smoke? Perhaps John's environment
was warmer. Perhaps his particular battery/load combination pulled
the charger's output lower than my experiment (10 volts) and caused
it to get hotter.
Given the temperature rise we measured, I'd estimate that my
experiment forced the Battery Tender into an internal dissipation
level on the order of 10 watts. It seems likely that long term
operation in this condition might put the critter at risk for
smoke.
I note that Deltran's instruction sheet for this charge does not
speak against charging large batteries (even a heavily discharged
battery will rise above 11 volts in under an hour). I've used
my Deltran BT Jr.s to recharge all sizes of batteries in every
state of discharge with good results.
I don't think we've learned anything from this experiment that
suggests my confidence and recommendations for use of the Deltran
BT Jr. needs modification. Our mini-investigation suggests that
the continuous, unintended loading of the battery was the proximate
cause of failure . . . and not a deficiency in the design of the
charger.
Bob . . .
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Risks to Deltran Battery Tender Jr. |
>
>Well, Bob, that was a fun test.
>
>Thermally, your 10 Volts at 1 Amp was the same power level as 14 V at
>.75 A, so I guess the 70 dC temp was within design specs, and we know
>that is within the range for power transistors.
Keep in mind that power dissipated within a device is a function
of the voltage drop across the device times the current through it.
The most severe test would be a dead-short on a charger that is
not current limited nor fitted with a low voltage inhibit. In this
case OUTPUT voltage is zero, ALL voltage from the transformer-rectifier
is dropped internally at whatever current the system would deliver.
I stuck an extra 10 ohm resistor across the load on yesterday's
experiment, voltage dropped to 6.5 volts. Okay, 6.5v/5ohms = 1.3 A.
I put a dead short on it and the system shut down.
Assuming a linear relationship for the current rise, a very low ohms
load might peak the output current at say 1.5A. Under this condition,
nearly ALL voltage would be dropped inside the device and internal
dissipation would be on the order of 14 x 1.5 or 21 watts.
When the charger is working full-out at 0.75A into a normal battery
the internal drop might be something on the order of 4v at 0.75A
for an dissipation value of 3 watts. Also, keep in mind that the
70C measured was on the case . . . The thermal model for the
battery charger looks something like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Deltran_T_Model.gif
There is a host of thermal resistances between the device that
gets hot (transistor) and the case. Most power junctions are
good for 150C. To fully analyze the risk to the power device,
we would need to know a great deal more about these thermal
resistances . . . or better yet, go inside and thermocouple
the device itself. It's a sure bet that it was a LOT hotter
than the 70C we were measuring outside on the surface.
>I think my test was even more severe, since as the battery gradually ran
>down, the current drain went up, and especially if the current limit is
>software controlled, is the opposite of what the designer would expect,
>and may well have fooled the unit. I would even say it was 'unfair' to
>the charger, and I don't think any less of Deltran for the failure.
The Deltran BT Jr exhibits no evidence of features designed to
limit current . . . else I would expect it to be 0.75A max under
all operating conditions. Considering the characteristics we've been
able to observe from outside: If your "ruggedness test" stabilized
out anywhere between 4 and 10 volts that the output current would
be on the order of 1 to 1.6 amps and total device dissipations in the
10 to 16 watt range. If you WERE running 16w, then case temperature
could have been expected to rise about 60% more than the experiment
I conducted. This would put the case at about 100C and most
definitely place any 150C power device at risk.
>I still have the charger, and will take a look at it this morning, and
>will either report results or send it to you if I don't find anything.
Great. I'd be pleased to see it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Recommended chargers for Odyssey |
>
>
>
>Don't know if this applies to the Junior models or not, but the "Battery
>Tender
>PLUS" models that I have (5+ yrs old) require that the battery have a minimum
>voltage present before it will "turn on". This was spelled out in the manual.
I'm certain that this is a feature of all the Deltran products. They
would not start without a "boost" from the battery and when dead
shorted, it shut down.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Huft <aflyer(at)lazy8.net> |
| Subject: | battery tender post-mortem |
version=3.0.3
Hi Bob
I took the failed unit apart (I haven't figured out how to return the
unit anyway, emails unanswered).
There is heat damage on the back of the P.C. board under the output
transistor. This is actually a Fairchild BD-434 PNP in a TO-126 package.
The data sheet says it will source 3 Amps at 10 Volts if you can keep
the temp down, which I doubt you can with a piece of sheet Al for a
heatsink inside a small plastic box. Of course you are right about the
difference in temp between outside of the case and the transistor junction.
There is no microP on the board, the only IC is a 348 dual op-amp. There
is also heat damage on the board under the bridge rectifier.
You are right, I was comparing power into the loads before. I was still
assuming some sort of linear type current limiting, but I agree that
your tests show nothing more than a source impedance. It is hard to say
what the voltage drop across the output transistor is without measuring
it, since the transformer, bridge rectifier, and filter circuits all
contribute to the voltage drops under load.
The op-amp may just shut the unit down below a certain voltage on the
output, and the other half control the float voltage, or something like
that. I think if you keep paralleling resistors on your load setup, it
will either shut down, or if you do it slowly enough, burn up. Again, I
feel this is unfair torture to an inexpensive charger.
Looks to me like the full-blown, switcher based, microP controlled units
like the one Rumen referenced will eventually win out.
If you want me to send the corpse to you, drop me an address.
John
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>Well, Bob, that was a fun test.
>>
>>Thermally, your 10 Volts at 1 Amp was the same power level as 14 V at
>>.75 A, so I guess the 70 dC temp was within design specs, and we know
>>that is within the range for power transistors.
>
>
> Keep in mind that power dissipated within a device is a function
> of the voltage drop across the device times the current through it.
> The most severe test would be a dead-short on a charger that is
> not current limited nor fitted with a low voltage inhibit. In this
> case OUTPUT voltage is zero, ALL voltage from the transformer-rectifier
> is dropped internally at whatever current the system would deliver.
> I stuck an extra 10 ohm resistor across the load on yesterday's
> experiment, voltage dropped to 6.5 volts. Okay, 6.5v/5ohms = 1.3 A.
> I put a dead short on it and the system shut down.
>
> Assuming a linear relationship for the current rise, a very low ohms
> load might peak the output current at say 1.5A. Under this condition,
> nearly ALL voltage would be dropped inside the device and internal
> dissipation would be on the order of 14 x 1.5 or 21 watts.
>
> When the charger is working full-out at 0.75A into a normal battery
> the internal drop might be something on the order of 4v at 0.75A
> for an dissipation value of 3 watts. Also, keep in mind that the
> 70C measured was on the case . . . The thermal model for the
> battery charger looks something like this:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Deltran_T_Model.gif
>
> There is a host of thermal resistances between the device that
> gets hot (transistor) and the case. Most power junctions are
> good for 150C. To fully analyze the risk to the power device,
> we would need to know a great deal more about these thermal
> resistances . . . or better yet, go inside and thermocouple
> the device itself. It's a sure bet that it was a LOT hotter
> than the 70C we were measuring outside on the surface.
>
>
>
>>I think my test was even more severe, since as the battery gradually ran
>>down, the current drain went up, and especially if the current limit is
>>software controlled, is the opposite of what the designer would expect,
>>and may well have fooled the unit. I would even say it was 'unfair' to
>>the charger, and I don't think any less of Deltran for the failure.
>
>
> The Deltran BT Jr exhibits no evidence of features designed to
> limit current . . . else I would expect it to be 0.75A max under
> all operating conditions. Considering the characteristics we've been
> able to observe from outside: If your "ruggedness test" stabilized
> out anywhere between 4 and 10 volts that the output current would
> be on the order of 1 to 1.6 amps and total device dissipations in the
> 10 to 16 watt range. If you WERE running 16w, then case temperature
> could have been expected to rise about 60% more than the experiment
> I conducted. This would put the case at about 100C and most
> definitely place any 150C power device at risk.
>
>
>
>>I still have the charger, and will take a look at it this morning, and
>>will either report results or send it to you if I don't find anything.
>
>
> Great. I'd be pleased to see it.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bench and ground power supply |
What is the down side to using one of these for a battery charger?
Indiana Larry
----- Original Message -----
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bench and ground power supply
>
>
> Just ran across this item on the 'net.
>
> http://www.web-tronics.com/25ampswitpow.html
>
>
> This supply is adjustable to 9-15 volts meaning that
> you can set it to emulate an alternator at 14.2 volts.
> Better yet, it's metered.
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
Could one not connect the appropriate # of D cells in series for a poor man's variac
for a one time solution?
I too have a Whelen system that will need some rejuvenation from prolonged storage.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | IR Alternator post mortem...Kinda |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Bob thankyou for your kind offer to send you my IR alt that was
behaving erratically. Suspecting it was just the brushes I thought it
worth opening up the case to see if it was something simple.
I found that the oil leak from the sump filler cap had been lubricating
the back of my alternator and the slip ring brush interface had a nice
greasy goop made of oil and brush material covering the slip rings.
Definatly looks like this has been lifting the brushes off the slip
rings.
The inside of the alt has a lot of this stuff and the first thing I will
do is clean it up and reinstall it on the airplane, having found an
assignable cause.
So the easy question is what sort of solvent should I use? I have some
acetone but I'm concerned I mught remove shellac from the windings and
or melt the plastic parts.
Any suggestions??
Thanks
Frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Durakovich <ddurakovich(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | David Clark ENC connector |
Anyone have a part number on the quick connector that David Clark uses on their
ENC headsets (ie; H20-10X) ? It's a 10 pin mini circular plug with a quick connect
(air hose type pull back) feature.
Thanks,
Dave Durakovich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
FYI,
My Schumacher 1562A wont charge a low battery. It goes into overload and
shuts off (red light on). The drill is up unplug it for 5 seconds to reset
it. I finally put the flooded cell car battery on a 2 amp charger all day
then put the 1562A on and it worked without a overload. I left the thing
for a month and when I got back the green light was on indicating voltage
above 13.2. Nice to have a fully charged battery after it sitts a while.
Regards, Paul W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Huft <aflyer(at)lazy8.net> |
| Subject: | Re: battery tender post-mortem version=3.0.3 |
version=3.0.3
John Huft wrote:
>
> Hi Bob
>
> I took the failed unit apart (I haven't figured out how to return the
> unit anyway, emails unanswered).
I want to correct the above, they answered me after I posted this...they
will replace the unit for $9.95 S&H, I think fair enough, but I am not
going to do it, I feel like I broke it.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bbradburry(at)allvantage.com> |
| Subject: | Nav coax and strobe wiring in same conduit |
My Legacy has a nav antenna in the wing tip. The position and strobe lights
are also there and there is only one conduit to bring the wireing into the
fuselage. Is there going to be a problem with this setup and should I do
something special to these cables? The nav antenna will be connected with
crimp ring connectors. I know I should keep these short. Anything else?
Bill Bradburry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Alternators Basics: Regulators & OV |
Alternator Basics
Here are some :
The two links below give a good overall explanation of alternators, for
more detail info, see the interesting links below, many with interactive
animation:
http://1url.org/go/1paz3i
http://www.alternatorparts.com/understanding_alternators.htm
(Details and descriptions above are not applicable to all alternators, but
give a good explanation of the basics. Variations in voltage regulators,
warning light functions and diode-trio described, for example are not
applicable to newer alternators like a ND alternator with an internal VR,
described below.)
PHYSICS OF ALTERNATORS (cool ANIMATION!)
Magnetic fields
http://1url.org/go/12fg
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/compass/
http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph11e/lorentzforce.htm
DC GEN AND ALTERNATOR, WHAT'S THE DIFF?
Basic DC generator/motor: Notice the split in the slip ring. This
is called the commutator. (basic magnetic induction)
http://sun.ylojarvi.fi/java/pos/moottori.htm
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/generator/dc.html
Commutator: A commutator is an electrical switch that periodically
reverses the current in an electric motor or electrical generator.
It enables a motor to run on, and a generator to produce a direct
current (or continuous current) instead of an alternating current.
Slip ring: A slip ring consists of a conductive circle or band
mounted on a shaft and insulated from it. Electrical connections
from the rotating part of the system (such as the rotor of a
generator) are made to the ring. Fixed contacts or brushes run in
contact with the ring, transferring electrical power or signals to
the exterior, non-rotating part of the system.
AC Generator, single phase, notice unlike DC the brushes run on two
slip rings continuously vs. a DC gen where the commutator interrupts
the bushes contact.
Examples of single phase AC:
http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph11e/generator_e.htm
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/generator/ac.html
http://sun.ylojarvi.fi/java/pos/tasagene.htm
(Keep in mind we *tap* the power from the stator or the non-moving
part shown as N-S magnets in above examples. Our stators are wire
windings or coils in the alternator housing in an iron frame. Also we have
3 phases or 3 electrically separate windings to produce three phases of
AC (see below). (Why 3-phases? it is more efficient and a good trade
off.) The rotating part shown in the examples above is shown connected
to a meter. This is called the rotor in alternators. The rotor is wire wound
on iron poles on a shaft with slip rings. When the rotor is spun inside the
stator and a current is supplied to the rotor thru the slip rings, and a
magnetic FIELD is produced. This produced magnetic field induces
(induction) current in the stator coils. By varying the speed of rotation
and voltage into the rotor coils (FIELD) we vary the alternator output.
Since the voltage going to the rotor is thru wires and this produces the
magnetic FIELD, we call one of these wires a FIELD WIRE. The
field wire runs from the VR to the rotor slip ring. In an internal VR
alternator the field wire is internal. We don't see it. Using an external
VR you need to run the field wire from the regulator to the alternator.
The VOLTAGE regulator varies the voltage going to the rotor (FIELD)
to produce the proper out put voltage in the stator windings. There are
two TYPES of voltage regulators or ways to vary the field. One way
is to ground one side of the rotor to ground and vary the positive side.
This is called a type B regulator. The other type an A type regulator
which varies the ground of the rotor (FIELD) while the other side is
connected to a constant +12 V source.)
The magic is when the alternator spun at different RPM's, it changes
the frequency (RPM / 60) and amplitude (voltage) of the AC output but
the DC output voltage remains the same, even as the power demand
of the alternator output varies. The voltage regulator varies the FIELD
to maintain a constant DC output voltage!! Cool. However how do we
get from 3-phase AC power to DC. As long as the voltage regulator
maintains the voltage, we don't care about the AC frequency since we
are going to turn it into DC. Regulators discussed below.
To turn AC to DC to get a steady DC voltage out of the alternator
we run the AC thru a RECTIFIER. There is a limit to how slow we can
turn the alternator to get power. For some ND alternators the no load
(0 amps) output at 14.5 volts is 1700 RPMs. To get useful power we
need about 3000 RPM and 5000 RPM to get the rated pwr (volt-amps)
of the alternator. This varies from alternator to alternator and design. The
bigger size or diameter of the alternator or more windings, the slower
you need to turn it to make power. Rectifiers discussed below.
ALTERNATOR STATOR
http://www.k-wz.de/physik/threephasegenerator.html
(The above link is more representative of what we have going on inside
an alternator: The rotating magnet shown represents the ROTOR, but
the ROTOR in an alternator is NOT a fixed magnet as shown in the
illustration. The alternator rotor is a wire wound electromagnet. We
vary the rotor's magnetic strength by varying the voltage in it's coils.
The stator winding develops voltage and current begins to flow from the
induced magnetic field of the rotor. The term FIELD wire comes from
the wire providing the rotor voltage to produce the magnetic FIELD. The
greater the rotor (field) voltage the greater the higher the output. If the rotor
RPM is low you can adjust the field (higher voltage) to maintain the same
output as you might have at high RPM and vise a verse. Field voltage is
highest when RPM is low and power demand is high. The STATOR has
three leads, one for each phase and one neutral.)
(Notice: If you play around with the voltage and frequency in the
animations links above, the output changes. This is where the rotor, field
voltage and voltage regulator comes in to produce a constant voltage at
the output.)
HOW DO WE GET DC from AC?
(Well we showed a DC generator can produce DC current with out
a rectifier. It requires a commutator in the slip rings of the DC generator.
With an alternator we produce AC first, than rectify it to DC with a
RECTIFIER or DC BRIDGE. The rectifier or bridge is just an arrangement
of DIODES. Diodes are one way valves, allowing current in one direction
only.)
AC to DC
Rectifier or DC Bridge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/4.html
VOLTAGE REGULATOR
Now how do we control the field voltage to the field field windings
in the rotor? Voltage regulator? We know from above the alternator
operates at different RPMs and with out a regulator to control the
FIELD voltage the output voltage would change with RPM. Note:
at LOW RPMs the field current must be highest, which is harder
for the alternator to provide the power. With in reason alternators
like RPM. I think 8000 RPM is a good top end limit for the small
ND alternators, 9000rpm continuous is starting to push it, in my
opinion. If you are running the larger of the two Lycoming fly wheel
pulleys ( 9.5" vs. 7.5" dia), I would run the larger ND pulley. ND
pulleys come as small as 2.5" dia to approx 2.9". If you have a big
fly wheel pulley consider the larger alternator pulley with in reason,
3" dia on the alternator is plenty.
With the exception of shunt regulators, all voltage regulators operate
by comparing the actual output voltage to some internal fixed
reference voltage. In some simple VR's this is just a zener diode.
In other VR's there is a control voltage reference in an IC chip. Any
difference is amplified and used to control the regulation element.
This forms a negative feedback servo control loop. If the output voltage
is too low, the regulation element is commanded to produce a higher
voltage. If the output voltage is too high, the regulation element is
commanded to produce a lower voltage. In this way, the output
voltage is held roughly constant. The control loop must be carefully
designed to produce the desired trade-off between stability and
speed of response.
General description of Voltage regulators
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_regulator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator#Theory_of_operation
Here are some voltage regulator designs (home made):
http://www.satcure-focus.com/tutor/page5.htm
http://www.hazmat.com/~mjb/candm/regulator.html
http://homepage.sunrise.ch/mysunrise/joerg.hau/mot/voltreg.htm
(Note: the basic voltage regulator shown above are early (70's) designs
made with a few discreet components. VR's with IC chips do much
more than just regulate voltage, described below.)
Here is an example of a external solid state VR (about $80):
http://www.transpo.de/cgi-win/product.exe?V1200
A Modern INTERNAL Voltage regulator
http://1url.org/go/1gx7qm
(Note: take a good look at above LINK, page 2 and this link of
a common linear VR design
http://www.hazmat.com/~mjb/candm/regulator.html
Notice: the schematics of a modern internal voltage regulator above.
There are 100's of transistors in this IC chip that you could never get
into a small enough package, using discreet parts to install directly
in the alternator. The simple VR above has about 17 components.
Each box or triangle in the diagram (page 2) of a interanl IC chip VR
may represent 3, 20 or a 100 equivalent transistors. A simple VR
can only regulated voltage; that is it. Notice some of the functions
of a I-VR below:
Over voltage detector
Thermal Limit detector
Current limit detector
Lamp driver circuit
Internal V regulator Bias current regulator
Gate polling circuit (of transistor, rotor short protection)
Source polling circuit (of transistor)
Band Gap reference generator
Digital Duty cycle generator
Ignition delay circuit
http://1url.org/go/1vy9p
(Note: This IC chip above is similar to the IC VR in the ND alternator.
To be clear the functions of modern VR's internal are way advance of
a simple voltage regulator with a few transistors, diodes, resistors and
a capacitor or two, used in the past. However many new solid state
external regulators are not much more than $5 worth of parts. These
devices have no OV protection or a OV device grafted on. Since an
internal VR is on the alternator, has the OV protection integrated, it
controls better than if mounted 4 feet away. The only down side is
heat. This is why I-VR need to mounted on an alternator with good
cooling fans (dual internal fans) and not close to external heat source.
For our aircraft, the air blast tube is critical to reliable operations.
The max ambient Temp is about 250F, but you want to be below this.
Radiant heat from exhaust pipes a foot away may be over 1000F and
can heat the back of the alternator up. ND alternators have a heat
shield and heat sink for reliable operations, but the builder should
consider everything to mitigate outside heat sources.)
Old VR's and VR's based on old 2-transistor designs have no over-voltage
protection and thus required OV module add-ons. These are no longer
needed with modern regulators with integrated OV protection and
solid-state switching.
DO NOT USE A CROW BAR or OVER VOLTAGE RELAY (contactor)
on the B-lead of a ND alternator with a I-VR. Nippon Denso says you
MUST NEVER operate the alternator with out the battery, and you must
NEVER ground or (poorly) wire the B-LEAD causing an arcing. THE
CROW BAR DOES ALL THESE (not good) THINGS. All these things
(short/arcs) should not happen and are easy to avoid with good wiring
installation. There is no controversy. The crow bar works great with
simple external VR's of the 2-transistor type but not with the IC chips
in alternators with internal VR's. If you choose to use a crow bar on an
internally regulated alternator assure that there will be no faults and
nuisance trips.
Specific to ND alternators design:
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h8.pdf
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/alt_bwoh.pdf
http://www.autoshop101.com/trainmodules/alternator/alt101.html
This link is of good overall general interest
http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm
(READ THE WARNING 2/3rds OF THE WAY DOWN!!)
George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net> |
hi all,
i checked out the web sites for cannon plugs which were supplied by readers of
this site. even the 90 deg cannon will not give me clearance between my turn
coor. and my fuel tank. soooooo i plan to use the actual part of my plug that
makes the connection to my turn coor. and roll my own. i will form a 90 deg bend
with a combo of a drinking straw, 60 sec epoxy, shrink tube, and hot glue.
the hot glue will be used to encapsulate the wires and pins in the area where
i might have to disassemble someday. epoxy will capture the wires in the rest
of the straw. and of course to top it all off, shrink tubing where the wire exits
the straw. i guess i have improvised more than this before! thanks for the
input.
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: cannon plugs |
>
> hi all,
> i checked out the web sites for cannon plugs which were supplied by
> readers of this site. even the 90 deg cannon will not give me clearance
> between my turn coor. and my fuel tank. soooooo i plan to use the actual
> part of my plug that makes the connection to my turn coor. and roll my
> own. i will form a 90 deg bend with a combo of a drinking straw, 60 sec
> epoxy, shrink tube, and hot glue. the hot glue will be used to
> encapsulate the wires and pins in the area where i might have to
> disassemble someday. epoxy will capture the wires in the rest of the
> straw. and of course to top it all off, shrink tubing where the wire
> exits the straw. i guess i have improvised more than this before! thanks
> for the input.
That's a LOT of work to strain-relief two wires. Consider simply stripping
the backshell off a straight connector leaving only the threaded
retainer ring.
Install lead wires in solder cups, cover each joint with a couple layers of
heat-shrink and truck on. Your connections are probably going to last the
lifetime of the airplane. If you want a little extra 'insurance', build
a masking tape potting form around the wire-end of the connector and pour
some epoxy in to a depth of perhaps 1/2".
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>FYI,
> My Schumacher 1562A wont charge a low battery. It goes into overload and
>shuts off (red light on). The drill is up unplug it for 5 seconds to reset
>it. I finally put the flooded cell car battery on a 2 amp charger all day
>then put the 1562A on and it worked without a overload.
Sounds like they've included some circuitry intended to
prevent the situation we've been discussing on the Deltran
BT Jr.
> I left the thing
>for a month and when I got back the green light was on indicating voltage
>above 13.2. Nice to have a fully charged battery after it sitts a while.
Have you ever put a voltmeter on the battery to see what you get
after a week or so?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Reforming capacitors in strobe supply |
>
>Could one not connect the appropriate # of D cells in series for a poor
>man's variac for a one time solution?
>
>I too have a Whelen system that will need some rejuvenation from prolonged
>storage.
Sure.
First, I'm skeptical of Whelen's assertions that this
is a necessary or even a very useful thing to do with
modern electrolytic capacitors. They're much better
than the devices that went into Whelen's first products
40+ years ago. Effects internal to the capacitor that
drive a need for 'reforming' a long-stored capacitor have
all but disappeared.
If you're agonizing over it, get a 6v lantern battery
from Wallmart (About $5 with a flashlight) and hook this
up first. Let it run the battery down totally. Then hook
the supply up to a 12 lead acid battery on the bench
with no charger on it. Leave this running for a few hours.
I'm pretty sure this is insurance against an invasion of
pink elephants but it represents a more doable exercise
for those who don't have a variable bench supply.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Huft <aflyer(at)lazy8.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Recommended chargers for Odyssey batteries |
version=3.0.3
Well, back to the original question.
The reason we can't use a Deltran Battery Tender to recharge a dead
battery is that it won't turn on. It, and no doubt some other brands of
"Battery Maintainers" are specifically designed to hold a charge on a
mostly charged up battery, not to recharge dead batteries. This saved
some amount of money in manufacturing cost.
So, we will have to think about what we want to accomplish when we buy a
battery charger, or battery maintainer. Going from the lead from
Rumen, this one looks like a winner from BatteryMart, for an extra $5,
even claims to be approved by Odyssey...
http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ACC-1206WB
Otherwise, I am sure Bob is correct, that as long as a charger's output
exceeds the battery's leakage rate, it will eventually charge the battery.
John
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> Good morning,
>
> One of my clients has cited your webpage at . . .
>
> http://www.odysseybatteries.com/charging.htm
>
> . . . where you state:
>
> "There is another class of chargers that is designed
> specifically to maintain the battery in a high state
> of charge. These chargers, such as the 1.25 amp
> Battery Tender from Deltran are not capable of charging
> a deeply discharged ODYSSEY battery. This is due to
> the fact that these chargers have very low output power.
> They should only be used either to continuously
> compensate for parasitic losses or to maintain a trickle
> charge on a fully charged stored battery."
>
> I've searched my sources on lead-acid battery technologies
> and found no references to charging efficiencies
> base on charging rate. While the small chargers cited
> are limited in their power output, my present sense is that
> this only extends the time required for a given battery
> to reach full charge.
>
> Your webpage implies that an Odyssey battery can only
> be efficiently charged if the re-charge time is on the
> order of 2 hours.
>
> Can you enlighten me on the supporting physics of
> your assertions? I do a lot of work with batteries
> in the aircraft industries and I'm often called upon to
> offer advice on battery operation and maintenance.
> If there's an important point of physics in battery operation
> that I'm unaware of, I'd be very pleased if you could
> point me in the right direction for acquiring that
> knowledge.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob Nuckolls
> AeroElectric Connection
> Wichita, KS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Trim box(es) needed. |
I'm building a test fixture and need an MAC or RAC trim box. Beaten up is fine.
Fixable is okay. Free is good but cheap is okay.
Let me know offline.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | David Clark ENC connector |
I don't! But I am wondering what you are trying to do? They do make an
adapter to the Bose type plug in from that 10 pin connector. Then you
go to a Bose socket, makes for a very nice install....
Mike Larkin
Lancair Legacy
Kitfox IV
TS-11
A-320
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Durakovich
Subject: AeroElectric-List: David Clark ENC connector
Anyone have a part number on the quick connector that David Clark uses
on their ENC headsets (ie; H20-10X) ? It's a 10 pin mini circular plug
with a quick connect (air hose type pull back) feature.
Thanks,
Dave Durakovich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> conduit |
| Subject: | Re: Nav coax and strobe wiring in same |
conduit
>
>My Legacy has a nav antenna in the wing tip. The position and strobe lights
>are also there and there is only one conduit to bring the wireing into the
>fuselage. Is there going to be a problem with this setup and should I do
>something special to these cables? The nav antenna will be connected with
>crimp ring connectors. I know I should keep these short. Anything else?
Many folks have installed the system you've described with
satisfactory results.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 11/06/05 |
My strobe power
> supply has been setting for a few years. As such, Whelen's tech strongly
> suggested that I connect it to a variable voltage device (Isn't that a
> variac?), set it at 3 Volts for 15 minutes, 6 Volts for 15 minutes, 9 Volts
> for 15 minutes & finally 12 Volts. As a side question out of curiosity,
> what does this do?
Tinne,
I just get the list as a digest as I finish up my airframe, but I have some interesting
experience that illustrates exactly what this does.
I worked as an electronics test technician at AT&T for several years, doing 'bed
of nails' testing. A circuit board was placed on a fixture and then was sucked
down onto a set of probes (metal pins) by a vacuum. A computer then ran all
sorts of current and voltage signals through the circuit.
You have to understand that electrolytic caps are very closely related to batterys.
Basically, they are rolled up foil with a layer of acid between. If a current
has never been run through them (or if they've been setting for a long
time), the acid will not have created a complete oxide layer on one or both sides
of the foil. The capacitors job is to hold electrons like a bucket, and the
oxide layer is the container. Without that layer, the electrons run straight
through, which is usually called a short circuit. On that initial energization,
you have an inrush current that not only must fill the capacitor and form
the oxide layer, but must also energize the short circuit path. The capacitor
has to be able to withstand all the initial current.
One device we tested was a small circuit that was full of little electrolytic capacitors.
Very soon after the product went into production, they switched to
a cheaper supplier for the electrolytics. After the switch, about every 4th
or 5th time the test was run a few would make a small explosion and burn. The
test engineer modified the test to ramp up the voltage slower, but I still had
to take to wearing a pair of the glove that I stole from the guy that maintained
the wave solder machine. The parts just could not handle the inrush.
Whelen wants you to be nice to your capacitors, I suspect.
--
,|"|"|, |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta |
o| d |o www.ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IR Alternator post mortem...Kinda |
>
>
> Bob thankyou for your kind offer to send you my IR alt that was
>behaving erratically. Suspecting it was just the brushes I thought it
>worth opening up the case to see if it was something simple.
>
>I found that the oil leak from the sump filler cap had been lubricating
>the back of my alternator and the slip ring brush interface had a nice
>greasy goop made of oil and brush material covering the slip rings.
>Definatly looks like this has been lifting the brushes off the slip
>rings.
>
>The inside of the alt has a lot of this stuff and the first thing I will
>do is clean it up and reinstall it on the airplane, having found an
>assignable cause.
You may want to replace the brushes. These are porous and will
have absorbed some of the contaminating oil.
>So the easy question is what sort of solvent should I use? I have some
>acetone but I'm concerned I mught remove shellac from the windings and
>or melt the plastic parts.
Use a mild solvent. Paint thinner, filling station solvent, charcoal
lighter etc. I keep spray cans of carburetor cleaner for board cleaning
which is basically lacquer thinner in a spray can. Acetone is very
aggressive and will attack many plastics.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl_Schroeder <Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com> |
Black box offers 'technical' info from time to time. Here is an
example: http://tinyurl.com/ae278
You may agree or disagree.. Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.com |
11/08/2005 03:04:13 PM
OK, more basic questions from a wannabe Knuckollhead.
The AeroElectric Connection teaches that fuses have but one purpose - to
protect WIRES.
If thats true, it would stand to reason that one can simply size all fuses
by the maximum amp rating for the selected wire, per the wire table in
chapter 8.
However, perusal of the Z-diagrams shows fuse ratings that are commonly
below the capabilities of the indicated wire sizes. For e.g., I see a lot
of 3 amp or even 1 amp fuses on 22 awg wire, which has a rating of 5 amps.
Why would that be, unless we are trying to protect something other than the
wire itself? Its a small point, but all other factors being equal, I would
want to keep the number of different fuse types that I keep around to a
minimum, no?
I am tempted to resort to the commonly held view that we are really
interested in also protecting the device at the end of the wire. This
would seem to be supported by the documentation I have received from
manufacturer's for their various products. For example, the documentation
for the fuel injector booster pump I just received from Vans emphatically
states that it must be protected with a 7 amp fuse (I could be off on the
exact value - but thats beside the point). I would certainly be reluctant
to disregard the manufacturers specific instructions when wiring this thing
up, even if I got a scoff or two from the list.
Someone care to set me straight on this?
I would guess this issue has been discussed before, but I wasnt quite sure
how to fully capture the subject matter for the archive search
Erich Weaver
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re:Recommended chargers for Odyssey batteries |
>
>Well, back to the original question.
>
>The reason we can't use a Deltran Battery Tender to recharge a dead
>battery is that it won't turn on. It, and no doubt some other brands of
>"Battery Maintainers" are specifically designed to hold a charge on a
>mostly charged up battery, not to recharge dead batteries. This saved
>some amount of money in manufacturing cost.
Given your discovery of rather simplistic electronics, it's
obvious that the little Deltran product could be hard pressed
to recharge a really 'dead' battery. By definition of energy
stored, a battery that is 95% used up would be useless but
the open circuit terminal votlage would still be well above 10v
and would rise rather rapidly such that the small Deltran product
was not at-risk for smoke. I've used these chargers on all
sizes and combinations of sizes for long term recharge duty
with good results.
A battery that has been discharged to lower voltage has been
severely discharged and while you could certainly call it
'dead', it's also abused. These batteries are worthy of
special recovery and recharging consideration including a
cap check to make sure they're flight worthy.
>So, we will have to think about what we want to accomplish when we buy a
> battery charger, or battery maintainer. Going from the lead from
>Rumen, this one looks like a winner from BatteryMart, for an extra $5,
>even claims to be approved by Odyssey...
>
>http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ACC-1206WB
>
>Otherwise, I am sure Bob is correct, that as long as a charger's output
>exceeds the battery's leakage rate, it will eventually charge the battery.
There are hundreds of capable products out there not the least
of which are off-the-shelf at Walmart. Every product on the
rack last time I checked was a smart charger and I think the
smallest was a 2A device. Obviously more robust than the
DBTJr but if pressed into a situation where it was tasked
with charging a 'loaded' battery, it might be vulnerable
to smoke as well.
Unless they're REALLY smart with current-limiting, over-temp
shutdown, over-time shutdown, etc. it's probably possible
to kill most tools when operated in the worst case corner
of its design envelope.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pampering your electrolytics |
>
>
>
>My strobe power
> > supply has been setting for a few years. As such, Whelen's tech strongly
> > suggested that I connect it to a variable voltage device (Isn't that a
> > variac?), set it at 3 Volts for 15 minutes, 6 Volts for 15 minutes, 9 Volts
> > for 15 minutes & finally 12 Volts. As a side question out of curiosity,
> > what does this do?
>
>Tinne,
>I just get the list as a digest as I finish up my airframe, but I have
>some interesting experience that illustrates exactly what this does.
>
>I worked as an electronics test technician at AT&T for several years,
>doing 'bed of nails' testing. A circuit board was placed on a fixture and
>then was sucked down onto a set of probes (metal pins) by a vacuum. A
>computer then ran all sorts of current and voltage signals through the circuit.
>
>You have to understand that electrolytic caps are very closely related to
>batterys. Basically, they are rolled up foil with a layer of acid
>between. If a current has never been run through them (or if they've been
>setting for a long time), the acid will not have created a complete oxide
>layer on one or both sides of the foil. The capacitors job is to hold
>electrons like a bucket, and the oxide layer is the container. Without
>that layer, the electrons run straight through, which is usually called a
>short circuit. On that initial energization, you have an inrush current
>that not only must fill the capacitor and form the oxide layer, but must
>also energize the short circuit path. The capacitor has to be able to
>withstand all the initial current.
>
>One device we tested was a small circuit that was full of little
>electrolytic capacitors. Very soon after the product went into
>production, they switched to a cheaper supplier for the
>electrolytics. After the switch, about every 4th or 5th time the test
>was run a few would make a small explosion and burn. The test engineer
>modified the test to ramp up the voltage slower, but I still had to take
>to wearing a pair of the glove that I stole from the guy that maintained
>the wave solder machine. The parts just could not handle the inrush.
On brand new boards? Amazing. New caps out of the box
should not be so limited. Whelen's original recommendations
cited strobe supplies that were in storage for long (5-10
years) periods of time and certainly didn't apply to a fresh,
out-of-the-box product.
Here's a tutorial on the innermost secrets of an electrolytic
capacitor.
http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c04-electr-cap.htm
. . . .it even speaks to the special considerations for capacitors
use for strobes . . . but even these issues are not prevalent until
we get to flash rates on the order of 3/second. Aircraft strobes are
about 1.5/sec.
Here's an article that speaks specifically to procedures for
salvaging OLD capacitors . . .
http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/electrolytics/#reform
A quote from the article: "Electrolytics do not suffer idleness well.
They can cause big trouble when idle for long periods, needing periodic
charging to stay "formed" and maintain the oxide layer that insulates
the conducting plates."
Accurate but not very informative. The term "long" is non-quantified.
I've taken the time to re-form many an old capacitor . . . my favorite
technique is to apply rated voltage through a resistor that limits
current flow to 1 mA max. For example, a 300v cap would be charged
through a 300K resistor. I've always watched the terminal voltage
across the capacitor and NEVER had a cap take more than 10 minutes
to charge to within 90% of rated voltage (i.e. leakage less than
100 microamperes). My sense is that had I applied full voltage through
a much lower resistance that the results would not have been spectacular
or even noteworthy. I've blow up a few capacitors (very spectacular)
but in every case it was due to over-voltage or reversed polarity.
Sometimes they can be "reformed" by a slowly rising return to working
voltage (see below). Even with regular use, electrolytics fail with age by
drying out or leaking electrolyte following internal corrosion. If the
electrolytic bulges, shows obvious loss of electrolyte, or simply can't be
reformed you must replace it.
I think the term "long" means products more than 10 years old
and even then, the act of performing a re-forming ritual is of
very limited benefit.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Mark & Lisa Sletten ] : New Email List Photo Share |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
"Aeroelectric List"
Todd, you sent me a Hall effect sensor which I assume is for measuring
alternator amperage. I also am running a standby alt which I think means I
might need two hall sensors. Without reading the instructions, does this
mean that I don't need the alternator shunts to pick up the alt amperage?
Shunts came from B&C.
Thanks Bill S
Bill Schlatterer
501 851 0310
Maumelle, Arkansas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>OK, more basic questions from a wannabe Knuckollhead.
>
>The AeroElectric Connection teaches that fuses have but one purpose - to
>protect WIRES.
>
>If thats true, it would stand to reason that one can simply size all fuses
>by the maximum amp rating for the selected wire, per the wire table in
>chapter 8.
>
>However, perusal of the Z-diagrams shows fuse ratings that are commonly
>below the capabilities of the indicated wire sizes. For e.g., I see a lot
>of 3 amp or even 1 amp fuses on 22 awg wire, which has a rating of 5 amps.
>Why would that be, unless we are trying to protect something other than the
>wire itself? Its a small point, but all other factors being equal, I would
>want to keep the number of different fuse types that I keep around to a
>minimum, no?
Why? They're not expensive. You're not likely to need very many
fuses in total even if you have a lot of different sizes.
>I am tempted to resort to the commonly held view that we are really
>interested in also protecting the device at the end of the wire. This
>would seem to be supported by the documentation I have received from
>manufacturer's for their various products. For example, the documentation
>for the fuel injector booster pump I just received from Vans emphatically
>states that it must be protected with a 7 amp fuse (I could be off on the
>exact value - but thats beside the point). I would certainly be reluctant
>to disregard the manufacturers specific instructions when wiring this thing
>up, even if I got a scoff or two from the list.
>
>Someone care to set me straight on this?
>
>I would guess this issue has been discussed before, but I wasnt quite sure
>how to fully capture the subject matter for the archive search
The first priority is indeed wire protection. A second consideration
might include devices on the end of the wire especially in itty-bitty
electro-whizzies. If you have a device that runs on say 100 mA and has
an etched circuit board inside, it MIGHT be beneficial to fuse it with
a 1A fuse on a 22AWG feeder just to preclude burning a trace on the board
due to internal fault. Faulted parts are easy to replace, burned traces
more difficult if not catastrophic to the product. However, if minimum
numbers of fuse sizes is your design goal, there's not a thing wrong
with making 5A the smallest horse in the stable.
Keep in mind that NOTHING in the 'Connection is intended to recommend any
particular size wire or fuse for similar applications in your airplane.
You need to evaluate what might be significant variables both in appliance
needs along with your personal design goals. The primary intent of the
z-figures is to discuss architectures best suited to how your airplane
is equipped and how you plan to use it. The details like fuse and wire
sizes should be re-evaluated to make sure they match what you're going
to install.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Off line for a few days. |
I'm packing up tools and test fixtures to go hammer on a brand new
bizjet with generator controls that barf when the HF transmitter is
keyed. If things go well, I'll be back by the weekend.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
When I got back my hardware store meter said 13. Sorry I don't have a
quality meter. But I did throw away the really bad meter I had.
I have 3 more batteries being maintained like the example and I will
report in December. One flooded car battery is on a 1562A maintainer. The
other pair of batteries are in parallel are being charged with the cheaper
Schumacher 1.5a. One is a Delco flooded and the other is a Optima Sealed.
These two batteries have been on that maintainer since May and it cycles
between charge and off (or very low amps) when I happen to notice it. No
more details other than when ever I check the voltage on this pair its 13v.
Don't know it this maintainer has never cycled off, or has the overload
capability. But, neither of those 2 batteries have ever been discharged
like the battery on the 1562.
Paul W
===============
At 06:15 AM 11/8/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >FYI,
> > My Schumacher 1562A wont charge a low battery. It goes into overload and
> >shuts off (red light on). The drill is up unplug it for 5 seconds to reset
> >it. I finally put the flooded cell car battery on a 2 amp charger all day
> >then put the 1562A on and it worked without a overload.
>
> Sounds like they've included some circuitry intended to
> prevent the situation we've been discussing on the Deltran
> BT Jr.
>
> > I left the thing
> >for a month and when I got back the green light was on indicating voltage
> >above 13.2. Nice to have a fully charged battery after it sitts a while.
>
> Have you ever put a voltmeter on the battery to see what you get
> after a week or so?
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
Can someone remind me how to save my panel designed with epanelbuilder into
a Paint file?
Thanks
Bevan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
Press [Alt]+[Print Screen].
Open MSPaint.
Press [Ctrl]+[V] or select Edit|Paste from the menu. If it asks if you want
to enlarge the picture, select OK.
Save the file with the desired name.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of B Tomm
Subject: AeroElectric-List: epanelbuilder
Can someone remind me how to save my panel designed with epanelbuilder into
a Paint file?
Thanks
Bevan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: epanelbuilder |
Bevan,
The "print screen" option is still alive and well. This is one method to
save what you see.
If you have not used it for a while (from the old DOS days), what ever is on
your screen, I mean everything, task bars, menus, as well as your work can
be save to the Paint program which uses the ".bmp" file extension.
So, try and position your "work" as best as possible on your screen, then,
hold down the "Alt" key and press the "Prt Sc" button usually found in the
upper right of your keyboard. The key will show the Prt.Sc as a second
function on the key pad. This action is like a "copy" command.
Then, open the Paint program, (I assume that you are going to use it for
making changes, etc.)
Under the "Edit" tab , choose Paste. And, there is your complete screen as
saved. Now, you can "cut" out the pieces of the original screen that you
really did not want... like a task bar, etc., then, edit, color, etc., etc.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: epanelbuilder
>
> Can someone remind me how to save my panel designed with epanelbuilder
> into
> a Paint file?
>
> Thanks
>
> Bevan
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
Just blew in from Little Rock on the RAC Shuttle (B-1900 . . .
ugh!). We were able to identify and implement a kluged-fix
on a generator control unit that was designed in the late
70's and grand-fathered onto far too many modern airplanes.
Dee and I are driving back down Sunday night with hardware
and tools to develop, prototype and write work instructions
for a production fix. Need to figure out how to mount 16
capacitors inside a connector back shell and still bring
the 20 some wires out. I'm a whole lot more optimistic
about the second trip than I was about the first.
We'll be around Saturday and most of Sunday and then gone
again for a couple of days. This was an interesting trip
for a variety of reasons. The Hawker is a complicated
airplane, a very expensive airplane and the owners want and
are willing to pay for expensive toys both in the cockpit
and passenger cabin. No two airplanes are exactly alike
and the system integration problems are challenging . . .
especially for RFI/EMC issues.
Exciting stuff but I'm glad I don't work down there full
time!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Crowder" <sonex293(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | epanelbuilder (Xpanel5000) |
For another option, I've been playing around with XPanel5000 available at
http://www.xpanelsoftware.com . Haven't
seen anyone mention the software here. It's currently in beta testing and
the software is available in the download section. The author hasn't said
how much the final version is going to cost, but I'm having fun designing
different panels for my project. I've been able to add instruments not in
the current inventory, and I've even updated the panel outline to match what
I'm planning. There is a web based version, but I've found
epanelbuilder.com to be much faster to use. The last site update changed
the release date from Nov 05 to April 06, probably a Sun-N-Fun release.
Just thought I would pass this info along to fellow builders.
--Michael Crowder
Sonex #293
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "923te" <923te(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Wiring Skytec, one more time |
I've searched the archives and still am a bit confused as to the best way to wire
the Skytec.
Skytec suggests separating the S-Lead from the Battery lead of the starter's solenoid
and wiring from the start switch direct to the S Lead leaving the Starter
solenoid directly connected to the battery per link:
http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm
Seems like this would effectively be the same as Z-22 with the simplification of
one less contactor / solenoid.
What am I missing? No diode protection?
Sure appreciate any help here.
Thanks,
Ned
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | epanelbuilder (Xpanel5000) |
| From: | "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle(at)hq.inclinesoftworks.com> |
This is really pretty cool - do you know what they are going to charge
for the real version? Right now, it is fully functional and free (thru
4/1 next year). Looks like I might design my panel before then.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Crowder
Subject: AeroElectric-List: epanelbuilder (Xpanel5000)
For another option, I've been playing around with XPanel5000 available
at
http://www.xpanelsoftware.com .
Haven't
seen anyone mention the software here. It's currently in beta testing
and
the software is available in the download section. The author hasn't
said
how much the final version is going to cost, but I'm having fun
designing
different panels for my project. I've been able to add instruments not
in
the current inventory, and I've even updated the panel outline to match
what
I'm planning. There is a web based version, but I've found
epanelbuilder.com to be much faster to use. The last site update
changed
the release date from Nov 05 to April 06, probably a Sun-N-Fun release.
Just thought I would pass this info along to fellow builders.
--Michael Crowder
Sonex #293
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Skytec, one more time |
>
>I've searched the archives and still am a bit confused as to the best way
>to wire the Skytec.
>
>Skytec suggests separating the S-Lead from the Battery lead of the
>starter's solenoid and wiring from the start switch direct to the S Lead
>leaving the Starter solenoid directly connected to the battery per link:
>
>http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm
>
>Seems like this would effectively be the same as Z-22 with the
>simplification of one less contactor / solenoid.
>
>What am I missing? No diode protection?
>
>Sure appreciate any help here.
See http://members.cox.net/bob.nuckolls/strtctr.pdf
for an explanation of how modern two-stage starter solenoids
place an extraordinarily high stress on starter switches. See:
http://members.cox.net/bob.nuckolls/StarterWiring.pdf
for three variations on a theme for energizing the modern
starter solenoid. My personal recommendation would be for
the architecture described in the z-figures using a B&C
S702-1 starter contactor with the spike catcher diode built
in. Other contactors are suitable but need an external diode
(1N5000 series . . . from Radio Shack. About $1 each in packages
of 2).
The above links are temporary . . . my website in San Diego
is down (as are all others on that server). I got word
from my newly acquired net-guru that our new server site is
up and running.
I'll be transferring aeroelectric.com to the new hardware in Andover
KS over the next week or so. When all the testing is finished,
we'll register the new IP address with the world and the
'Connection will be completely self sustaining. The really neat
thing is that my server is located in the basement of the
tech-support guy . . . I'm hoping for aero outages due to changes
on other folks sites and tightly coupled service when my
machine needs it!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "923te" <923te(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Skytec, one more time |
See http://members.cox.net/bob.nuckolls/strtctr.pdf
for an explanation of how modern two-stage starter solenoids
place an extraordinarily high stress on starter switches. See:
http://members.cox.net/bob.nuckolls/StarterWiring.pdf
for three variations on a theme for energizing the modern
starter solenoid. My personal recommendation would be for
the architecture described in the z-figures using a B&C
S702-1 starter contactor with the spike catcher diode built
in. Other contactors are suitable but need an external diode
(1N5000 series . . . from Radio Shack. About $1 each in packages
of 2).
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the help.
In your 3 variations I think that:
1) is like the Skytec diagram shows for experimentals (see link below) Take out
the Skytec jumper
2) is like the factory did on my certified Tiger. Leaving the skytec jumer in
3) Looks like using the S702-1 starter contactor and breaking the battery to starter
connection and taek out Skytec jumper. Which I am thinking is what yo are
saying you would do on your aircraft??
Figure Z22 I think shows yet another variation doesn't it? It shows taking out
the Skytec jumper, connecting the battery straight to the Skytec solenoid and
tehn putting a S704-1 20 amp relay where the Skytec jumper was.
Seems like the S704-1 in figure Z22 would have a higher contact life because the
contacts would only see control amperage instead of starter amperage. So perhaps
it would be more reliable in teh long run?
Is this true?
Thanks,
Ned
Skytec diagram for experimentals:
http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm
same as Z-22
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Skytec, one more time |
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Thanks for the help.
>
>In your 3 variations I think that:
>
>1) is like the Skytec diagram shows for experimentals (see link below)
>Take out the Skytec jumper
Yup, this is what they do in cars. Chews up contacts on
key-start switches (assuming they've not installed catch
diodes which will at least mitigate switch interrupt
stresses . . . won't help the closure stresses.
>2) is like the factory did on my certified Tiger. Leaving the skytec jumer in
Yes. Most if not all certified ships already had starter
contactors when Skytec got their STCs. Was easier to simply
have their new starter emulate the old starter.
>3) Looks like using the S702-1 starter contactor and breaking the battery
>to starter connection and taek out Skytec jumper. Which I am thinking is
>what yo are saying you would do on your aircraft??
Yes.
>Figure Z22 I think shows yet another variation doesn't it? It shows taking
>out the Skytec jumper, connecting the battery straight to the Skytec
>solenoid and tehn putting a S704-1 20 amp relay where the Skytec jumper was.
Yes. This diagram was made to accommodate a bunch of folks who
built their airplanes not planning to use an external contactor.
After a variety of starter issues were identified, it was easier
to add the S704-1 boost relay and leave the hard connection between
starter's built in contactor and the switched side of battery contactor.
This is not recommended for new design.
>Seems like the S704-1 in figure Z22 would have a higher contact life
>because the contacts would only see control amperage instead of starter
>amperage. So perhaps it would be more reliable in teh long run?
Reliability? I presume you're talking about service life. I don't
think there's a good reason to pick one architecture over any
other architecture as long as you AVOID running the built in
starter coil currents through the cockpit STARTER ENGAGE switch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 11/12/05 |
David Lloyd wrote:
>
> Michael,
> I downloaded the Beta version and when I clicked the desktop icon it came up
> with a "license error" message. Is there a license for the Beta version??
> D
Yes, on that same download page, there should have been
a link above it for a file that gives a license until
01 Jan 2006. After that, I think you have to pay for it.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
"TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 11/12/05 |
Thanks Dj.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dj Merrill" <deej(at)deej.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs -
11/12/05
>
> David Lloyd wrote:
>>
>>
>> Michael,
>> I downloaded the Beta version and when I clicked the desktop icon it came
>> up
>> with a "license error" message. Is there a license for the Beta
>> version??
>> D
>
> Yes, on that same download page, there should have been
> a link above it for a file that gives a license until
> 01 Jan 2006. After that, I think you have to pay for it.
>
> -Dj
>
> --
> Dj Merrill
> Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
>
> "TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Skytec, one more time |
Ned:
The title of the Skytec page is Helicopter Do's and Don't. On that page it talks
about certified and experimental aircraft. I understand why you are confused,
but these are apples and oranges. We tend to wire our homebuilt's like a certified
plane. There are pros and cons but don't mix and match. Certified Helicopters
wire the starter like they show at the bottom of the page, under experimental
aircraft, which is confusing. The punch line is stay with the Z-dwg or
certified wiring. I'll explain the history and why. SkyTec is not suggesting
but only showing an alternative wiring scheme. It is a valid method of wiring
and has advantages of less weight, cost and big wire connections.
Now why do we have two starter relays. Why add a starter relay on firewall when
the starter already has it's own?
In the past aircraft starters did not have their own on-board starter relay at
all, and a starter relay was needed and typically mounted remotely on the firewall.
The new style skytec starters (like car starters) have their own relay
on board, so they really so not need a separate starter relay. However they will
work just fine with a separate relay.
In aircraft traditionally we used a separate starter relay on the firewall.
With a Skytec, which has it's own relay, we ARE double dipping by adding an extra
relay. We could in theory leave the firewall relay off. HOWEVER it is a good
idea to keep using the starter relay. With the firewall relay we don't have
the starter wire (BIG-OLE-WIRE) hot all the time. IT is hot only when we are
cranking. If you leave the firewall relay off the wire to the starter is hot all
the time in flight. In cars the wire to the starter is HOT all the time, even
when parked, because it is wired direct to the battery. The advantage is leaving
off big relays. Makes sense for cars (and may be also for airplanes?).
If you want to wire your plane per the Z drawing do that, diodes and all. Forget
the Helicopter or Experimental wiring skytec shows altogether. Forget it has
it's own relay and just wire it with a jumper as they show, no diode is needed
on the starter or jumper. You could add one to make you happy, but it is not
needed.
LETS SAY you decide to leave off the firewall starter relay than put a clamping
diode on the starter as they show. This WILL save weight and cost. HOWEVER
remember the main draw back, the BIG wire going to the starter is always HOT or
hot with the battery master relay ON.
I tend to go with the certified wiring / Z dwg for safety. However certified
helicopters do not use a separate firewall start relay with the skytec starter.
However the idea of saving weight and cost is attractive. We could even save
more weight and cost and leave the MASTER relay off!! (see next par.)
HERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE IDEA, food for thought. Has anyone touched the master
relay after it has been on for a minute or two. IT is HOT HOT HOT. It is using
0.5 to 0.8 amps of wasted power. YOU could leave it off. IF you leave the starter
relay off and wire it direct to the battery you don't need a BIG starter
relay. How?
First we know we can leave the start relay off and wire it direct to the battery,
just like a car. Albeit the wire will be hot all the time, even parked, as
we mentioned, but people have no problem mounting batteries way in the back
of their plane and running long big hot wires all around. NOW DO WE GET RID OF
THE MASTER RELAY? Well it is easy.
We only needed the BIG master relay because we ran the starter power demand thru
it. We need 300-400 amps of capacity. With the starter directly wired to
the battery we can get by with one or two small 40 amp AVIONICS relays in parrellel
or what ever capacity relay it takes. Little relays are not the power hungry
things that a big 400 amp MASTER relay is. JUST AN IDEA AND I AM NOT PERSONALY
DOING IT. It is presented just for thought, Thinking out the Box or Paradigm
as some would say.
Overall the traditional wiring has been shown to work, albeit inefficient, heavy
and complicated. However the Aeroelectric paradigm uses many CAR wiring concepts.
Why not go all the way and wire your plane like a car. How many starter
battery cables have ground out in cars, even though they are hot all the time?
You could save several pounds, many big wire connections, $100 or more and
simplify your wiring by doing the above, no big relay's.
RELAY MOUNTING ORIENTATION
REMEMBER to mount the firewall starter relay (if you have one) with the pointy
end DOWN (metal cap), so that it is "PULLED" open (OFF) with positive G's. Mounted
the other way positive G forces can overcome the electro-magnetic pull
and engage the starter in flight. NOT GOOD. Do not mount the relays sideways because
they will gall and fail. Also you mount the MASTER with the pointy end
up, for the opposite reason. You don't want it being pulled open in flight due
to G forces.
George
Ned wrote:
From: "923te" <923te(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Skytec, one more time
I've searched the archives and still am a bit confused as to the best
way to wire the Skytec.
Skytec suggests separating the S-Lead from the Battery lead of the
starter's solenoid and wiring from the start switch direct to the S Lead leaving
the
Starter solenoid directly connected to the battery per link:
http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm
Seems like this would effectively be the same as Z-22 with the
simplification of one less contactor / solenoid. What am I missing? No diode protection?
Sure appreciate any help here.
Thanks,
Ned
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Cellphone-aviation Headset Interface |
Has anyone seen a schematic diagram of or taken apart a cell
phone-aviation headset interface? Specifically, what are they composed
of (active circuits, isolation resistors, transformers, etc.)? How do
they work?
Reference: http://store.yahoo.com/pilotsupport/2000s.html
or: http://www.anrheadsets.com/CellUpgrade.asp
Thanks,
Joe
Joe Dubner
523 Cedar Avenue
Lewiston, ID 83501
cell: (208) 305-2688
http://www.nicon.org/chapter328/jd/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cellphone-aviation Headset Interface |
Joe,
I don't know the specifics of the interface but, they are relatively simple.
Someone on the List will probably supply the details.
But, here is something to think about that few are aware.
The type of cell phone transmission greatly affects the interface design.
TDMA, GSM, analog, etc. The older TDMA seems to work well. Unfortunately,
most of the cell carriers have successfully convince most of us to move
"upgrade" to the GSM transmission technique.
For some reason, this form of transmission can create a lot of strange
transmission pulse noise into the headset. The folks on the other end don't
hear it, but, you with the headset on get abused. Moving the cell phone as
far away as your arm allows or hand it to a back seat passenger helps lower
the noise a lot.
I have not heard of why this happens nor how to stop it. I believe the
method of transmitting the packetized communications leaks back into the
headphones directly or via the interface. Torrids attached to the headphone
cables does not help.
It will be great to hear from one of the List gurus that understand GSM and
how it affects a poorly designed interface or poorly shielded headphone
set.... This info comes from testing several types of ANR headsets. I have
not tested a regular non-anr headset.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Dubner" <jdubner(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cellphone-aviation Headset Interface
>
> Has anyone seen a schematic diagram of or taken apart a cell
> phone-aviation headset interface? Specifically, what are they composed
> of (active circuits, isolation resistors, transformers, etc.)? How do
> they work?
>
> Reference: http://store.yahoo.com/pilotsupport/2000s.html
> or: http://www.anrheadsets.com/CellUpgrade.asp
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
>
> Joe Dubner
> 523 Cedar Avenue
> Lewiston, ID 83501
> cell: (208) 305-2688
> http://www.nicon.org/chapter328/jd/
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Casey <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
I have decided to use the B and C wig-wag system in my plane with a
single pole 3-way switch (off-wigwag-on). The only way I can think
of to wire it requires 2 SPDT relays (I plan to use automotive-type
"DIN" relays everywhere for commonality) to switch the lights from
the wig wag position to the both on position. Is there a better,
simpler way? I know you could use a double-pole 3-way switch, but my
panel is already done and lighted rocker switches are what fit.
Lancair sells a lighted switch that is labeled correctly, so that's
what I'll use.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help |
Not sure if Y'all remember the posts a week or two ago regarding input
voltage for an Ipod.....if not, please read 'BACKGROUND INFO' below.
After scouring several sources (including this list) there was no clear,
'Yes, your ipod will definitely work on 12 volts' answer, but lots of 'I
don't see why it wouldn't work' or 'It will probably work fine' type of
answers. Nobody said it would NOT work. So yesterday I took a deep breath
& plugged in..........was both pleased & relieved to see the Ipod charging
fine while playing in my headphones.
Now I have another small issue: There is no volume contol. (Not a big
surprise....The salesperson told me I would lose use of the Ipod volume
contol if I used the plug on the bottom....I just had to see for myself) I
believe adding a volume control behind my panel is not too difficult, but I
did not find anything in the archives. Can someone please enlighten me?
I'm using a 2.5 mm input jack that feeds into my intercom. The intercom's
volume control does not effect the Ipod volume.
Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Grant
BACKGROUND INFO: I'm installing an Ipod mini as a background music source to
my intercom. The Ipod (well, the mini at least) says that it runs on 5-30
Volts DC @ 1.0 amps max, but the cigarette lighter adapter (for some still
unknown reason) steps voltage down from buss voltage to 5 Volts. I want to
hardwire the charger to my main buss.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-wag wiring |
Hi Gary
If you have room for an extra switch, another possibility might be to
use one switch for lights on and off and a second separate switch to
choose wig wag or no wig wag. I think at least one of my switches is
double pole but they are both only 2-way. I find 3-way switches to be
awkward.
Ken
Gary Casey wrote:
>
>I have decided to use the B and C wig-wag system in my plane with a
>single pole 3-way switch (off-wigwag-on). The only way I can think
>of to wire it requires 2 SPDT relays (I plan to use automotive-type
>"DIN" relays everywhere for commonality) to switch the lights from
>the wig wag position to the both on position. Is there a better,
>simpler way? I know you could use a double-pole 3-way switch, but my
>panel is already done and lighted rocker switches are what fit.
>Lancair sells a lighted switch that is labeled correctly, so that's
>what I'll use.
>
>Gary Casey
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net> |
hi all,
sorry to ask this brainlessly easy question but i know zip about electronics.
i have a jab 3300. manual states 15 amps continuous for the alternator. i will
be installing a crowbar for overvoltage protection. what size wire with what
size breaker do i use from the alternator? i am ordering some parts today. i
thought i would just flip open aeroelection and pick a wire size based on amp
but i dont find a chart. went to ''firewall forward'' and his chart says 30 amp
for breaker, 15 amp for fuse. so what started simple has raised more questions
than i can answer. thanks
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "923te" <923te(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-wag wiring |
Gary would this work?
http://www.newark.com/product-details/text/catalog/4869.html
or this:
http://www.newark.com/product-details/text/catalog/4870.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig-wag wiring
>
> I have decided to use the B and C wig-wag system in my plane with a
> single pole 3-way switch (off-wigwag-on). The only way I can think
> of to wire it requires 2 SPDT relays (I plan to use automotive-type
> "DIN" relays everywhere for commonality) to switch the lights from
> the wig wag position to the both on position. Is there a better,
> simpler way? I know you could use a double-pole 3-way switch, but my
> panel is already done and lighted rocker switches are what fit.
> Lancair sells a lighted switch that is labeled correctly, so that's
> what I'll use.
>
> Gary Casey
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ectric-List: |
I am not familiar with Jabiru's but if I was ordering new materials for
this I'd use awg12 wire and a 20 amp breaker.
15 amps might be OK but a 20 amp breaker should not nuisance trip. I
wouldn't trust a 15 amp fuse as they tend to be quick to trip and might
well trip when you apply power after an engine start. Your 15 amp
alternator rating is a nominal rating and it might well put out a little
more in some conditions. 12 awg wire fits yellow PIDG connectors so it
is easy to install and will handle 15 or so amps without excessive
heating or voltage drop for reasonable lengths and wire bundle sizes.
Ken
bob noffs wrote:
>
>hi all,
> sorry to ask this brainlessly easy question but i know zip about electronics.
i have a jab 3300. manual states 15 amps continuous for the alternator. i will
be installing a crowbar for overvoltage protection. what size wire with what
size breaker do i use from the alternator? i am ordering some parts today. i
thought i would just flip open aeroelection and pick a wire size based on amp
but i dont find a chart. went to ''firewall forward'' and his chart says 30 amp
for breaker, 15 amp for fuse. so what started simple has raised more questions
than i can answer. thanks
>
> bob noffs
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
Here's what you are looking for:
www.aeroelectric.com/articles/wiresize.pdf
Dave Morris
At 08:16 AM 11/14/2005, you wrote:
>
>hi all,
> sorry to ask this brainlessly easy question but i know zip about
> electronics. i have a jab 3300. manual states 15 amps continuous for the
> alternator. i will be installing a crowbar for overvoltage protection.
> what size wire with what size breaker do i use from the alternator? i am
> ordering some parts today. i thought i would just flip open aeroelection
> and pick a wire size based on amp but i dont find a chart. went to
> ''firewall forward'' and his chart says 30 amp for breaker, 15 amp for
> fuse. so what started simple has raised more questions than i can answer.
> thanks
>
> bob noffs
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Success . . . |
Bet those guys don t like the Concord RG series battery.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Success . . .
Just blew in from Little Rock on the RAC Shuttle (B-1900 . . .
ugh!). We were able to identify and implement a kluged-fix
on a generator control unit that was designed in the late
70's and grand-fathered onto far too many modern airplanes.
Dee and I are driving back down Sunday night with hardware
and tools to develop, prototype and write work instructions
for a production fix. Need to figure out how to mount 16
capacitors inside a connector back shell and still bring
the 20 some wires out. I'm a whole lot more optimistic
about the second trip than I was about the first.
We'll be around Saturday and most of Sunday and then gone
again for a couple of days. This was an interesting trip
for a variety of reasons. The Hawker is a complicated
airplane, a very expensive airplane and the owners want and
are willing to pay for expensive toys both in the cockpit
and passenger cabin. No two airplanes are exactly alike
and the system integration problems are challenging . . .
especially for RFI/EMC issues.
Exciting stuff but I'm glad I don't work down there full
time!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net> |
hi all, anyone have any experience with either the grand rapids e.i.s. or the stratomaster
information system/ i had pretty much decided on the g.r. eis but
i read a lot about the relatively new stratomaster. i know g.r. has an excellent
reliability record and the company stands behind their product. any input
on either unit would be appeeciated.
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com> |
Hi Bob,
I did a lot of research on both the EIS and the Startomaster. My findings led to
the EIS. All guys that fly behind it term it as bullet-proof and does a very
good job. It is not as graphical as the Stratomaster...but at least you can see
it. Every pilot that I found with the Stratomaster complained that it simply
isn't readable in sunlight. Two seperate guys said that in direct sun it actually
goes blank. Hope that helps.
Dan
Kitfox Lite Squared / 912s
bob noffs wrote:
hi all, anyone have any experience with either the grand rapids e.i.s. or the stratomaster
information system/ i had pretty much decided on the g.r. eis but
i read a lot about the relatively new stratomaster. i know g.r. has an excellent
reliability record and the company stands behind their product. any input on
either unit would be appeeciated.
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com> |
Hi Bob,
Say, would it be to much to ask you to use capital letters where
necessary? Your messages are difficult to read when those cap's are
missing. I have used the EIS system for two years and it works great.
So much so that I've gone for his EFIS system on my new build. Great
company and they stand behind their product.
Jim Nelson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II - resolved |
> I'm getting a lot of strobe noise - kind of a
> whooping sound - in one of our club's Pipers.
> It's so bad I can't run the strobes and listen
> to the radio. I've read in the archives that
> people have solved this problem with a capacitor
> somewhere, but I can't find the details. Any
> hints appreciated before we give it to the shop
> for them to spend 2 weeks debugging it at a
> thousand dollars an hour, or whatever they charge.
Just a follow-up on this thread. I didn't get to
do the work myself, but it seems the problem was
with multiple ground paths. They say they brought
everything to a single ground point, and that has
solved the problem.
I was out chasing needles today, and I can confirm
that the whoop-whoop sound is gone.
Many thanks to all for the various hints and tips
that you sent me.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry McFarland <larrymc(at)qconline.com> |
Bob,
I'm using the EIS by g.r. and it's extremely solid functonally. Easier
yet to adjust limits and I've never looked back on the unit.
The visual aspect of seeing 6 readings at at time and paging allows
combinations to be optimized for flight. I exceeded temp limits
early on in flight testing, being overly cautious and was able to adjust
temp warnings to allowable limits as the engine broke in.
Warnings are never ambiguous because the errant temp reading is
flashing in the display along with the external warning light.
There are prettier displays, but after the wow factor rubs off, I doubt
the Grand Rapids system can be beat on simplicity, readability for the
long term.
Excellent technical support, but I doubt you'll need them. Everything
worked just as it should from the beginning.
I use 2 EGTs, 2 CHTs, Oil press and temp, water press and temp, ambient
temp, Hourmeter, Voltmeter and
Tachometer. This is for a Stratus Subaru engine.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
bob noffs wrote:
>
>hi all, anyone have any experience with either the grand rapids e.i.s. or the
stratomaster information system/ i had pretty much decided on the g.r. eis but
i read a lot about the relatively new stratomaster. i know g.r. has an excellent
reliability record and the company stands behind their product. any input
on either unit would be appeeciated.
> bob noffs
>
>
>_
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Hooper" <phil(at)hdmnet.com> |
| Subject: | Appropriate Faston Connectors |
Greetings all. I'm new to the list. I purchased some Faston connectors
from Spruce, and then some from our local electronic warehouse, Fry's in
Anaheim.
They look the same except plastic sleeves are vinal, and the metal looks
slightly different. The parts warehouse products are made by JT&T Products,
a company that focuses on retail, moving product.
I'm concerned about quality for aircraft use. I don't want gremlins
sneaking in about 10 years from now.
Should I stay with Spruce only, "certified" type parts, or will these
electronic parts store connectors be safe, and last in aircraft application?
Thanks very much!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Appropriate Faston Connectors |
Buy them from B&C and buy their crimper too. Then you'll be certain they
are correct.
Dave Morris
At 11:43 AM 11/15/2005, you wrote:
>
>Greetings all. I'm new to the list. I purchased some Faston connectors
>from Spruce, and then some from our local electronic warehouse, Fry's in
>Anaheim.
>
>
>They look the same except plastic sleeves are vinal, and the metal looks
>slightly different. The parts warehouse products are made by JT&T Products,
>a company that focuses on retail, moving product.
>
>
>I'm concerned about quality for aircraft use. I don't want gremlins
>sneaking in about 10 years from now.
>
>
>Should I stay with Spruce only, "certified" type parts, or will these
>electronic parts store connectors be safe, and last in aircraft application?
>
>
>Thanks very much!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
What form of tach pickup did you use? Did you have any trouble with the
tach reading?
Dave Morris
At 10:57 AM 11/15/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>Bob,
>I'm using the EIS by g.r. and it's extremely solid functonally. Easier
>yet to adjust limits and I've never looked back on the unit.
>The visual aspect of seeing 6 readings at at time and paging allows
>combinations to be optimized for flight. I exceeded temp limits
>early on in flight testing, being overly cautious and was able to adjust
>temp warnings to allowable limits as the engine broke in.
>Warnings are never ambiguous because the errant temp reading is
>flashing in the display along with the external warning light.
>There are prettier displays, but after the wow factor rubs off, I doubt
>the Grand Rapids system can be beat on simplicity, readability for the
>long term.
>Excellent technical support, but I doubt you'll need them. Everything
>worked just as it should from the beginning.
>I use 2 EGTs, 2 CHTs, Oil press and temp, water press and temp, ambient
>temp, Hourmeter, Voltmeter and
>Tachometer. This is for a Stratus Subaru engine.
>
>Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
>bob noffs wrote:
>
> >
> >hi all, anyone have any experience with either the grand rapids e.i.s.
> or the stratomaster information system/ i had pretty much decided on the
> g.r. eis but i read a lot about the relatively new stratomaster. i know
> g.r. has an excellent reliability record and the company stands behind
> their product. any input on either unit would be appeeciated.
> > bob noffs
> >
> >
> >_
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Appropriate Faston Connectors |
I'm sticking with the PIDG terminals for my airplane, Phil.
I crimped and cut open a few of those "car stereo" terminals and
convinced myself to leave them in the glove box. No strain relief, and
I wasn't satisfied that I'd get a consistent "gas tight" crimp on the
conductor. Maybe it was the terminal... maybe it was the crimper...
maybe it was the fellow doing the crimping!?
Regardless, I found that making "gas tight" connections with PIDG
terminals is a breeze. Plus, the PIDG barrel allows you to crimp the
conductor as well as the insulation... so no worries about strain
relief. My advice -- invest in a good crimp tool and stick to PIDG fastons.
D
----------------
Phil Hooper wrote:
>
> Greetings all. I'm new to the list. I purchased some Faston connectors
> from Spruce, and then some from our local electronic warehouse, Fry's in
> Anaheim.
>
>
> They look the same except plastic sleeves are vinal, and the metal looks
> slightly different. The parts warehouse products are made by JT&T Products,
> a company that focuses on retail, moving product.
>
>
> I'm concerned about quality for aircraft use. I don't want gremlins
> sneaking in about 10 years from now.
>
>
> Should I stay with Spruce only, "certified" type parts, or will these
> electronic parts store connectors be safe, and last in aircraft application?
>
>
> Thanks very much!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Appropriate Faston Connectors |
Do NOT use automotive grade connectors or terminals in your aircraft. Aside
from Vinyl insulation being inferior and inadequate, that is not the only
difference in the connectors. There is an additional insulation/jacket
support sleeve built in between the actual connector and the insulation that
provides a bit more strain relief for the insulation.
Spend the extra few pennies on aircraft quality terminals and you won't go
wrong. Also, make sure to buy at least a decent crimper. Don't go with an
automotive type crimper that has the plain old half barrel shaped crimp
terminals. Aircraft crimp dies should have 2 separate cavities, one that is
elliptical and one that is "bowtie" shaped, hence providing 2 crimps for
each terminal simultaneously. Stay away from the retail outlets for that
stuff.
If you buy the stuff from any of us aircraft supply houses you'll be just
fine (B&C, SteinAir, Spruce, Van's, etc..). Be ware of extra cheap stuff,
because sometimes you get what you pay for.
Cheers,
Stein.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phil
> Hooper
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 10:44 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Appropriate Faston Connectors
>
>
> Greetings all. I'm new to the list. I purchased some Faston connectors
> from Spruce, and then some from our local electronic warehouse, Fry's in
> Anaheim.
>
>
> They look the same except plastic sleeves are vinal, and the metal looks
> slightly different. The parts warehouse products are made by
> JT&T Products,
> a company that focuses on retail, moving product.
>
>
> I'm concerned about quality for aircraft use. I don't want gremlins
> sneaking in about 10 years from now.
>
>
> Should I stay with Spruce only, "certified" type parts, or will these
> electronic parts store connectors be safe, and last in aircraft
> application?
>
>
> Thanks very much!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry McFarland <larrymc(at)qconline.com> |
Dave,
If I remember correctly (2 years ago) it's the gray wire from the EIS to
the positive side of the coil
going to the points.
Larry
Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:
>
>What form of tach pickup did you use? Did you have any trouble with the
>tach reading?
>
>Dave Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Reginald E. DeLoach" <redeloach(at)fedex.com> |
As anyone tried the Blue Mountain unit (s)?
red :}
Larry McFarland wrote:
>
> Bob,
> I'm using the EIS by g.r. and it's extremely solid functonally. Easier
> yet to adjust limits and I've never looked back on the unit.
> The visual aspect of seeing 6 readings at at time and paging allows
> combinations to be optimized for flight. I exceeded temp limits
> early on in flight testing, being overly cautious and was able to adjust
> temp warnings to allowable limits as the engine broke in.
> Warnings are never ambiguous because the errant temp reading is
> flashing in the display along with the external warning light.
> There are prettier displays, but after the wow factor rubs off, I doubt
> the Grand Rapids system can be beat on simplicity, readability for the
> long term.
> Excellent technical support, but I doubt you'll need them. Everything
> worked just as it should from the beginning.
> I use 2 EGTs, 2 CHTs, Oil press and temp, water press and temp, ambient
> temp, Hourmeter, Voltmeter and
> Tachometer. This is for a Stratus Subaru engine.
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> bob noffs wrote:
>
> >
> >hi all, anyone have any experience with either the grand rapids e.i.s. or the
stratomaster information system/ i had pretty much decided on the g.r. eis
but i read a lot about the relatively new stratomaster. i know g.r. has an excellent
reliability record and the company stands behind their product. any input
on either unit would be appeeciated.
> > bob noffs
> >
> >
> >_
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Appropriate Faston Connectors |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Yes I seen this argument before, and I certainly am in the "you get what
you pay for" camp.
Howver, my own experience with terminal crimps has been opposite to
convential wisdom. I have a high quality 2 cavity ratchet crimper that I
have had for a couple of decades. The crimps however I got from my local
Bi Mart hardware store very economically. I have never had a single
crimp fail in the airplane or several automotive projects I have
completed.
First plane has been flying 6 years and has 400 hours on it.
The insulation appears to be hard to burn through although maybe it is
inferior to a proper high quality crimp. I dunno on that one.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
SteinAir, Inc.
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Appropriate Faston Connectors
-->
Do NOT use automotive grade connectors or terminals in your aircraft.
Aside from Vinyl insulation being inferior and inadequate, that is not
the only difference in the connectors. There is an additional
insulation/jacket support sleeve built in between the actual connector
and the insulation that provides a bit more strain relief for the
insulation.
Spend the extra few pennies on aircraft quality terminals and you won't
go wrong. Also, make sure to buy at least a decent crimper. Don't go
with an automotive type crimper that has the plain old half barrel
shaped crimp terminals. Aircraft crimp dies should have 2 separate
cavities, one that is elliptical and one that is "bowtie" shaped, hence
providing 2 crimps for each terminal simultaneously. Stay away from the
retail outlets for that stuff.
If you buy the stuff from any of us aircraft supply houses you'll be
just fine (B&C, SteinAir, Spruce, Van's, etc..). Be ware of extra cheap
stuff, because sometimes you get what you pay for.
Cheers,
Stein.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phil
> Hooper
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 10:44 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Appropriate Faston Connectors
>
>
> -->
>
> Greetings all. I'm new to the list. I purchased some Faston
> connectors from Spruce, and then some from our local electronic
> warehouse, Fry's in Anaheim.
>
>
> They look the same except plastic sleeves are vinal, and the metal
> looks slightly different. The parts warehouse products are made by
> JT&T Products, a company that focuses on retail, moving product.
>
>
> I'm concerned about quality for aircraft use. I don't want gremlins
> sneaking in about 10 years from now.
>
>
> Should I stay with Spruce only, "certified" type parts, or will these
> electronic parts store connectors be safe, and last in aircraft
> application?
>
>
> Thanks very much!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help |
Thanks for the response Mickey. I think I confused you some. I'll try to
explain it a little better: I believe your mini is taking the audio signal
from the top of the Ipod & putting charge into the bottom. Mine is running
both charge & audio through the bottom plug. (i.e. the volume control on
the front of the Ipod will only work with the top audio out put.) Please
correct me if I'm wrong though.
What I'm looking for is a way of controlling volume between the aux music
input jack & the intercomm. Again, any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks,
Grant
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help
>Now I have another small issue: There is no volume contol. (Not a big
>surprise....The salesperson told me I would lose use of the Ipod volume
>contol if I used the plug on the bottom....I just had to see for myself) I
>believe adding a volume control behind my panel is not too difficult, but I
>did not find anything in the archives. Can someone please enlighten me?
I don't understand this. I have an external power adapter
for my ipod mini, and I can still use the volume on the
front. The power adapter is a 3rd party AC adapter, with
a plug that goes into the bottom of the ipod.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Hooper" <phil(at)hdmnet.com> |
| Subject: | Appropriate Faston Connectors |
Thank you all for the responses on using quality. I purchased the AMP
crimper from Tyco, $100. It does a great job. I'll return these trash
connectors and purchase the good stuff from B&C or Spruce. I'm building a
Velocity XL RG so I'll be back for more good wisdom from you folks. Thanks
so much.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Appropriate Faston Connectors
Yes I seen this argument before, and I certainly am in the "you get what
you pay for" camp.
Howver, my own experience with terminal crimps has been opposite to
convential wisdom. I have a high quality 2 cavity ratchet crimper that I
have had for a couple of decades. The crimps however I got from my local
Bi Mart hardware store very economically. I have never had a single
crimp fail in the airplane or several automotive projects I have
completed.
First plane has been flying 6 years and has 400 hours on it.
The insulation appears to be hard to burn through although maybe it is
inferior to a proper high quality crimp. I dunno on that one.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
SteinAir, Inc.
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Appropriate Faston Connectors
-->
Do NOT use automotive grade connectors or terminals in your aircraft.
Aside from Vinyl insulation being inferior and inadequate, that is not
the only difference in the connectors. There is an additional
insulation/jacket support sleeve built in between the actual connector
and the insulation that provides a bit more strain relief for the
insulation.
Spend the extra few pennies on aircraft quality terminals and you won't
go wrong. Also, make sure to buy at least a decent crimper. Don't go
with an automotive type crimper that has the plain old half barrel
shaped crimp terminals. Aircraft crimp dies should have 2 separate
cavities, one that is elliptical and one that is "bowtie" shaped, hence
providing 2 crimps for each terminal simultaneously. Stay away from the
retail outlets for that stuff.
If you buy the stuff from any of us aircraft supply houses you'll be
just fine (B&C, SteinAir, Spruce, Van's, etc..). Be ware of extra cheap
stuff, because sometimes you get what you pay for.
Cheers,
Stein.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phil
> Hooper
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 10:44 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Appropriate Faston Connectors
>
>
> -->
>
> Greetings all. I'm new to the list. I purchased some Faston
> connectors from Spruce, and then some from our local electronic
> warehouse, Fry's in Anaheim.
>
>
> They look the same except plastic sleeves are vinal, and the metal
> looks slightly different. The parts warehouse products are made by
> JT&T Products, a company that focuses on retail, moving product.
>
>
> I'm concerned about quality for aircraft use. I don't want gremlins
> sneaking in about 10 years from now.
>
>
> Should I stay with Spruce only, "certified" type parts, or will these
> electronic parts store connectors be safe, and last in aircraft
> application?
>
>
> Thanks very much!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help |
Don't know specifically about iPods, but on most portable music gear, the
volume control doesn't affect the volume of the "line out" jack; it only
affects the volume on the "headphone out" jack.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tinne
maha
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help
Thanks for the response Mickey. I think I confused you some. I'll try to
explain it a little better: I believe your mini is taking the audio signal
from the top of the Ipod & putting charge into the bottom. Mine is running
both charge & audio through the bottom plug. (i.e. the volume control on
the front of the Ipod will only work with the top audio out put.) Please
correct me if I'm wrong though.
What I'm looking for is a way of controlling volume between the aux music
input jack & the intercomm. Again, any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks,
Grant
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help
>Now I have another small issue: There is no volume contol. (Not a big
>surprise....The salesperson told me I would lose use of the Ipod volume
>contol if I used the plug on the bottom....I just had to see for myself) I
>believe adding a volume control behind my panel is not too difficult, but I
>did not find anything in the archives. Can someone please enlighten me?
I don't understand this. I have an external power adapter
for my ipod mini, and I can still use the volume on the
front. The power adapter is a 3rd party AC adapter, with
a plug that goes into the bottom of the ipod.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | eddyfernan(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Magneto switch wiring |
Does anyone out there have a drawing of how to wire the magnetos with toggle switches
and a separate starter button? I'd also like wire them with a lockout
in case of kickback (one impulse).
Thanks in advance!
Eddy Fernandez
RV 9A
Finishing!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Denny Mortensen" <dennymortensen(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help |
Hi Grant, I am guessing this is just a line level output. You should be able
to simply put a 10K Ohm audio taper pot, or actually two of them for stereo
in the line. Either mounted in your IP or in a small project box in the
line. You can take a look at this page for how to make a small mixer.
http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/mixer2.htm
You of course don't need the amplifier portion but you can see how to hook
up your pot by looking at R4, 5 or 6. Just use one for each channel.
Actually since this circuit is for microphone level signals you would
probably be better off using a 100K ohm pot instead of the 10K. Basically
one side hooks to your output signal the other side to ground or common. The
center wiper is the feed to your audio panel.
Good Luck
Denny
dennymortensen(at)cableone.net
Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as
well dance!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tinne
maha
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help
-->
Thanks for the response Mickey. I think I confused you some. I'll try to
explain it a little better: I believe your mini is taking the audio signal
from the top of the Ipod & putting charge into the bottom. Mine is running
both charge & audio through the bottom plug. (i.e. the volume control on
the front of the Ipod will only work with the top audio out put.) Please
correct me if I'm wrong though.
What I'm looking for is a way of controlling volume between the aux music
input jack & the intercomm. Again, any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks,
Grant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help |
I wasn't familiar with the terms, but YES, that is exactly my problem: I
want to use the 'line out' jack to feed music to my intercomm. Using the
'headphone out' jack is possible, but would be messy.
I'm relativley sure I can regulate volume by installing a variable resistor
(a.k.a. potentiometer or 'pot' for short) between the 'line out' jack & the
intercom. Would like to know for sure though & find exact details. Denny
(forget the last name) sent a link along these lines that may have an
answer, but I'll have to absorb the info for a while. At first glance, it
seems more complicated than what I need.
Thank You for the responses!
Grant
From: "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help
Don't know specifically about iPods, but on most portable music gear, the
volume control doesn't affect the volume of the "line out" jack; it only
affects the volume on the "headphone out" jack.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tinne
maha
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help
Thanks for the response Mickey. I think I confused you some. I'll try to
explain it a little better: I believe your mini is taking the audio signal
from the top of the Ipod & putting charge into the bottom. Mine is running
both charge & audio through the bottom plug. (i.e. the volume control on
the front of the Ipod will only work with the top audio out put.) Please
correct me if I'm wrong though.
What I'm looking for is a way of controlling volume between the aux music
input jack & the intercomm. Again, any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks,
Grant
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt Ipod....Now Need Volume Help
>Now I have another small issue: There is no volume contol. (Not a big
>surprise....The salesperson told me I would lose use of the Ipod volume
>contol if I used the plug on the bottom....I just had to see for myself) I
>believe adding a volume control behind my panel is not too difficult, but I
>did not find anything in the archives. Can someone please enlighten me?
I don't understand this. I have an external power adapter
for my ipod mini, and I can still use the volume on the
front. The power adapter is a 3rd party AC adapter, with
a plug that goes into the bottom of the ipod.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magneto switch wiring |
| From: | "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com> |
A number of Bob's Z-diagrams show how to do this. I believe Z-11 does
(don't have the diagrams in front of me).
Dennis Glaeser
RV 7A Wings (installing ailerons & flaps)
Does anyone out there have a drawing of how to wire the magnetos
with toggle switches
and a separate starter button? I'd also like wire them with a
lockout
in case of kickback (one impulse).
Thanks in advance!
Eddy Fernandez
RV 9A
Finishing!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Garmin GNC-250XL Install |
Hi-
Anyone have a install guide / pinouts for the Garmin GNC 250XL? I downloaded
what Garmin had on their website, only to discover the "Installation"
portion of it only had 1 page detailing how to slide the unit in & out of
it's tray... that was it...
Thanks,
Mark Supinski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Garmin GNC-250XL Install |
Check your gmail account...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark
R. Supinski
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GNC-250XL Install
Hi-
Anyone have a install guide / pinouts for the Garmin GNC 250XL? I downloaded
what Garmin had on their website, only to discover the "Installation"
portion of it only had 1 page detailing how to slide the unit in & out of
it's tray... that was it...
Thanks,
Mark Supinski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ivorphillips" <ivor(at)ivorphillips.flyer.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GNC-250XL Install |
How to get ANY Garmin Manual You Ever Wanted
Are you looking for a Garmin user manual? STC? Installation doc?
Here is a list of the docs they keep in there manuals directory that are
part of the .jsp.
http://www.garmin.com/manuals/{insert some file name} these files below. So
if you are
looking for a manual, just search this list (ex. Ctl-f 430) and append
the filename to the url above and you will have it. This is not all
their docs by any means, many are missing from this list and I have not
figured out yet where they keep em, but Ill work on it. Just need to
sick the right techno dude on it between product releases. This is a
list of what they make available. There is some really old stuff in
here, as well as real new.
You will notice by looking at the file names and using the
scheme, that you can find just about anything you are looking for. Some
file names are not intuitive like GPS165TSODzusRail_PilotsGuide.pdf. Ill
try and work on getting the entire directory of everything possible. But
for now, this is a really good list. Old and new, popular in junk. Its
in there. STC, pilot Guide, Supplemental Flight Manual, Quick Reference
Guide, Pilots Guide, Installation Manual, Training Syllabus, all kinds
of very useful stuff in there. Just think about how many times you have
wanted a manual and could not find it. Especially installation manuals
which they seem to keep tight reign on. I ran a job from the office to
get all of these, yes every one, so Ill keep them somewhere just in
case they disappear. Another fella did that right before they took the
appolo site down. I got a file from him like
sl40_install_560-0956-03a.pdf. I mean how would you ever figure out that
filename? So I hope to have these stashed just in case Garmin gets hit
by a bus.
http://www.garmin.com/manuals/ these files below. So if you are
looking for a manual, just search this list (ex. Ctl-f 430) and append
the filename to the url above and you will have it.
Here is an example of exactly what the url looks like.
http://www.garmin.com/manuals/MX20_InstallationManual.pdf
Found this in my archives so may be of help,
Regards
Ivor Phillips
XS Europa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski(at)gmail.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GNC-250XL Install
>
>
> Hi-
>
> Anyone have a install guide / pinouts for the Garmin GNC 250XL? I
> downloaded
> what Garmin had on their website, only to discover the "Installation"
> portion of it only had 1 page detailing how to slide the unit in & out of
> it's tray... that was it...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Appropriate Faston Connectors |
>
>Greetings all. I'm new to the list. I purchased some Faston connectors
>from Spruce, and then some from our local electronic warehouse, Fry's in
>Anaheim.
>
>
>They look the same except plastic sleeves are vinal, and the metal looks
>slightly different. The parts warehouse products are made by JT&T Products,
>a company that focuses on retail, moving product.
>
>
>I'm concerned about quality for aircraft use. I don't want gremlins
>sneaking in about 10 years from now.
>
>
>Should I stay with Spruce only, "certified" type parts, or will these
>electronic parts store connectors be safe, and last in aircraft application?
In addition to some lucid and worthy advice from others I'll
suggest you review:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/faston3.pdf
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/terminal.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeEasley(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Ray Allen Position Indicator Light and PTT |
The trim system is hooked up to a Ray Allen position indicator and works
fine. When I push the PTT button on the stick (either one) I get a bright top
LED on the trim indicator. The LED goes out where the trim indication is
(center of the scale). The top LED is the one that's illuminated when the trim
indicator is extended.
First thought was some voltage from the transmitter is getting into the trim
indicator wires due to a poorly shielded com antenna wire. I checked for
continuity between the center conductor of the com antenna wire and the shield,
and no continuity.
Next, I disconnected the wires running aft from the panel to the trim
indicator, thinking I was getting some noise, inductance or whatever during
transmitting. The trim wires and com antenna run bundled together for about four
feet. I still get the light on the indicator.
So my conclusion is I've got a problem either with grounding or some
incorrect wiring behind the panel.
Any ideas?
Mike Easley
Helping a Glasair Guy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Ray Allen Position Indicator Light and PTT |
Probably not relevant, but when +12v is applied to the white wire on the RP3
LED Position Indicator, it dims the indicator lighting...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
MikeEasley(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ray Allen Position Indicator Light and PTT
The trim system is hooked up to a Ray Allen position indicator and works
fine. When I push the PTT button on the stick (either one) I get a bright
top
LED on the trim indicator. The LED goes out where the trim indication is
(center of the scale). The top LED is the one that's illuminated when the
trim
indicator is extended.
First thought was some voltage from the transmitter is getting into the
trim
indicator wires due to a poorly shielded com antenna wire. I checked for
continuity between the center conductor of the com antenna wire and the
shield,
and no continuity.
Next, I disconnected the wires running aft from the panel to the trim
indicator, thinking I was getting some noise, inductance or whatever during
transmitting. The trim wires and com antenna run bundled together for
about four
feet. I still get the light on the indicator.
So my conclusion is I've got a problem either with grounding or some
incorrect wiring behind the panel.
Any ideas?
Mike Easley
Helping a Glasair Guy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-wag wiring |
>
>I have decided to use the B and C wig-wag system in my plane with a
>single pole 3-way switch (off-wigwag-on). The only way I can think
>of to wire it requires 2 SPDT relays (I plan to use automotive-type
>"DIN" relays everywhere for commonality) to switch the lights from
>the wig wag position to the both on position. Is there a better,
>simpler way? I know you could use a double-pole 3-way switch, but my
>panel is already done and lighted rocker switches are what fit.
>Lancair sells a lighted switch that is labeled correctly, so that's
>what I'll use.
see page 3 of http://aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William" <wschertz(at)ispwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen Position Indicator Light and PTT |
A neighbor had that problem, it was traced to a grounding problem.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From: <MikeEasley(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ray Allen Position Indicator Light and PTT
>
> The trim system is hooked up to a Ray Allen position indicator and works
> fine. When I push the PTT button on the stick (either one) I get a bright
> top
> LED on the trim indicator. The LED goes out where the trim indication is
> (center of the scale). The top LED is the one that's illuminated when the
> trim
> indicator is extended.
>
> First thought was some voltage from the transmitter is getting into the
> trim
> indicator wires due to a poorly shielded com antenna wire. I checked for
> continuity between the center conductor of the com antenna wire and the
> shield,
> and no continuity.
>
> Next, I disconnected the wires running aft from the panel to the trim
> indicator, thinking I was getting some noise, inductance or whatever
> during
> transmitting. The trim wires and com antenna run bundled together for
> about four
> feet. I still get the light on the indicator.
>
> So my conclusion is I've got a problem either with grounding or some
> incorrect wiring behind the panel.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Mike Easley
> Helping a Glasair Guy
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | GPS IFR requirements |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.4999 1.0000 0.0000
11/15/2005
Hello Anon, Regarding your question copied below "....how to certify a
GPS for IFR operations in an experimental aircraft?"
The short answer is: "One should not even attempt such certification because
it is not
required." Let me explain.
The term "certify" is thrown around too loosely and any attempts to
discuss a question about certifying a GPS for IFR operations in an amateur
built
experimental aircraft without first setting some ground rules will
result in endless wrangling.
To me "certified" in this context means there is a piece of paper
(certificate or
equivalent document) signed by a person authorized by the FAA Administrator
to sign
that certificate or document.
Standard type certificated aircraft get a standard airworthiness
certificate based on meeting published standards and during its operational
life no one is permitted to legally do anything to that aircraft that would
void that certificate. There are
tens of thousands of words in the Federal Aviation Regulations, Advisory
Circulars, Technical Standard Orders, RTCA documents, SAE documents, FAA
Orders, and other documents such as FAA policy that exist to maintain the
sanctity of that aircraft's
standard airworthiness status.
Amateur built experimental aircraft get an initial special airworthiness
certificate, which includes Operating Limitations specific to that
individual aircraft, signed by an FAA Inspector or a DAR (Designated
Airworthiness Representative) acting with the authority of the FAA
Administrator. Since there are no published standards for amateur built
experimental aircraft to deviate from, as long as the aircraft remains
in compliance with its Operating Limitations and the references contained
therein it is properly certified and no further certification acts are
required.
Moving on to the subject of IFR equipment and instruments in amateur
built experimental aircraft. The best discussion of this subject is by Dick
Koehler starting on page 62 of the September 2005 issue of Sport
Aviation magazine. Also see the MINIMUM INSTRUMENT AND EQUIPMENT
REQUIREMENTS
FOR POWERED AMATEUR BUILT EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT
table available directly from me.
Now focusing specifically on GPS IFR equipment requirements and IFR
operations in amateur built experimental aircraft. One should read the
entire paragraph 1-1-19 of the August 4, 2005 edition of the AIM
(Aeronautical Information Manual)
<http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap1/aim0101.html#1-1-19>
Note One to Table 1-1-6 reads "To determine equipment approvals and
limitations, refer to the AFM, AFM supplements, or pilot guides." The
amateur builder has control over what his Aircraft Flight Manual says or
does not say. The pilot has access to the information and limitations
provided by the maker of his GPS equipment (pilot guides).
If the builder / pilot of an amateur built experimental aircraft is in
compliance with his aircraft's Operating Limitations, in compliance with
his AFM, in compliance with the instructions and limitations provided by the
maker of his GPS equipment, and in compliance with the equipment
requirements and flight procedural instructions regarding GPS IFR in the
most recent version of the AIM then he has met the legal requirements to
fly GPS IFR and no additional certification activity or approval is
required.
I'm happy to continue the discussion if there are differing or additional
viewpoints.
OC
----- Original Message -----
From: Anon
Subject: GPS IFR requirements
> Hello O.C. I recall that you did some extensive research on how to certify
> a GPS
> for IFR operations in an experimental aircraft. There seems to be a lot
> of interpretation of the law as written, and I would be interested in
> your findings and opinions on the subject.
> Regards, Anon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements |
OC,
Thanks for a very informative summary on this subject. I have had battles
with other builders intent on following the "letter of the FAR's", which
invariably lead to mass confusion and spit-ball fights. I left one
discussion group just for that reason.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements
> --> Avionics-List message posted by:
October 30, 2005 - November 17, 2005
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ey