AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-fe
December 20, 2005 - January 02, 2006
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? |
| From: | "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle(at)hq.inclinesoftworks.com> |
I am interested in seeing your design. I would appreciate seeing a
copy.
I don't know whether the technical sharing issue is file sharing
(upload) or schematic capture. If you are having trouble uploading to a
shared file, please send it directly to me. If it is schematic capture,
try this free-ware schematic capture http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm
Another great product is Orcad, which I use every day in business. They
have an evaluation version, but you have to wait for the CD.
http://www.ema-eda.com/products/orcad/requestdemocd.aspx
Dan Beadle
dan(at)inclinesoftworks.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security
issue??
Werner,
How likely is that wire controlling the contactor to "break," unless it
passes through the firewall and could experience shear forces that might
cut the insulation? I suppose you could activate the batery contactor
from the high side, switching the B+ to it instead of the ground, but
then you have an always-hot relay control wire that needs a fuse to
protect it.
I'm carefully studying an alternative architecture to Z-13/8 that
involves an ANL fuse from the battery for protection from catastrophic
shorts of the battery cable and always-hot battery bus, while allowing a
75-amp Bosch-type relay to be used as a battery contactor and uses no
starter contactor at all. Like you, I tried to get a critical review
going here on the List, but was "turned down," you might say. The
basics for this revised architecture are from Bob's figure Z-22 and from
George, aka "gmcjetpilot'" as posted on Doug Reeves' RV site. So far, I
don't see a downside to my hybrid design, and it will simplify and save
cost and weight. Nevertheless, I would welcome critical review before I
start changing stuff in my plane.
I think part of what frustrates efforts at dialog on this list is the
technical difficulty in posting diagrams of what we're talking about.
It's a major hurdle for me, at least.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security
issue??
As I did not get any feedback 2nd tryl,
>
> I was discussing recently with a guy which has NO main battery
> contactor (CB setup) about his setup and he did ask me something which
> I could not answer light heartily.
>
> The main battery contactor which is supposed to switch off the big
> juice in case of an emergency landing is switched through a cable
> going to ground. Now imagine your setup in a metal airplane and you
> crash, is there not a certain danger, that you break the cable going
> to the contactor and short it to ground, this switching on the main
> battery contactor and voila you have a bomb named battery in your
> crashing plane able to deliver several 100 Amps.
>
> This argument let me think and I would appreciate the insight of you
> folks on the list about that scenario?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Werner (Glastar with main battery contactor behind my seat)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? |
I've never used a file-sharing feature; I guess the Matronics lists have one now,
but that's new to me, sorry. I need to get with the times.
The big issue for me is drafting and scanning images. I tried using something
like PCExpress software to draw schematics, but found it cumbersome beyond any
usefulness to me. I might take a peek at the one you suggest.
-Stormy
...content, until now, to simply use the 'Connection's drawings as wirebooks.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beadle <Dan.Beadle(at)hq.inclinesoftworks.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue??
I am interested in seeing your design. I would appreciate seeing a
copy.
I don't know whether the technical sharing issue is file sharing
(upload) or schematic capture. If you are having trouble uploading to a
shared file, please send it directly to me. If it is schematic capture,
try this free-ware schematic capture http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm
Another great product is Orcad, which I use every day in business. They
have an evaluation version, but you have to wait for the CD.
http://www.ema-eda.com/products/orcad/requestdemocd.aspx
Dan Beadle
dan(at)inclinesoftworks.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security
issue??
Werner,
How likely is that wire controlling the contactor to "break," unless it
passes through the firewall and could experience shear forces that might
cut the insulation? I suppose you could activate the batery contactor
from the high side, switching the B+ to it instead of the ground, but
then you have an always-hot relay control wire that needs a fuse to
protect it.
I'm carefully studying an alternative architecture to Z-13/8 that
involves an ANL fuse from the battery for protection from catastrophic
shorts of the battery cable and always-hot battery bus, while allowing a
75-amp Bosch-type relay to be used as a battery contactor and uses no
starter contactor at all. Like you, I tried to get a critical review
going here on the List, but was "turned down," you might say. The
basics for this revised architecture are from Bob's figure Z-22 and from
George, aka "gmcjetpilot'" as posted on Doug Reeves' RV site. So far, I
don't see a downside to my hybrid design, and it will simplify and save
cost and weight. Nevertheless, I would welcome critical review before I
start changing stuff in my plane.
I think part of what frustrates efforts at dialog on this list is the
technical difficulty in posting diagrams of what we're talking about.
It's a major hurdle for me, at least.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security
issue??
As I did not get any feedback 2nd tryl,
>
> I was discussing recently with a guy which has NO main battery
> contactor (CB setup) about his setup and he did ask me something which
> I could not answer light heartily.
>
> The main battery contactor which is supposed to switch off the big
> juice in case of an emergency landing is switched through a cable
> going to ground. Now imagine your setup in a metal airplane and you
> crash, is there not a certain danger, that you break the cable going
> to the contactor and short it to ground, this switching on the main
> battery contactor and voila you have a bomb named battery in your
> crashing plane able to deliver several 100 Amps.
>
> This argument let me think and I would appreciate the insight of you
> folks on the list about that scenario?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Werner (Glastar with main battery contactor behind my seat)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? |
Okay, but why have a contactor sized to carry starter current when it isn't necessary?
I'm after _weight savings_ here, and the amp budget savings from doing away with
the battery contactor is an extra bonus, since it might eliminate the need to
craft a separate endurance bus to deal with the main alternator failure scenario.
A fuse and a 4 oz Bosch relay weigh less than a battery contactor, and
the hold-in current looks like 300mA. That leaves substantial SD-8 current to
play with even if there's no E-bus and the relay must stay energized.
Despite his colorful reputation in some circles, George might be onto something
here. Since I can't post a schematic easily until later in the week, have a
look at the VAF site. I'll go look for the link.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue??
Hi Stormy
Or you could just use a regular contactor instead of a 75 amp unit and
then you can route starter current through it. That might also eliminate
the need for the ANL fuse. Worked for me.
Gmcjetpilot is the only person to ever make my delete message filter
list so I am not familiar with any post he has made about this.
<< Snip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
Received-SPF: none (mgr1.xmission.com: 66.17.68.242 is neither permitted nor denied
by domain of craigandjean.com) client-ip=66.17.68.242; envelope-from=craig(at)craigandjean.com;
helo=TheTCCraig;
| Subject: | Oh God, strippers again |
I've seen three different Ideal Stripmaster part numbers bandied about.
Which is the correct model for stripping the Tefzel wire sold by B&C or
SteinAir?
45-174 Described as being for "1000 volt Teflon"
45-177 "600 volt Teflon"
45-1610 "MIL-W-81044/12B Type Kynar wire", Gary Edwards
[gary21sn(at)hotmail.com] has one of these for sale.
-- Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antennas- ground plane. |
>
>
>Question Bob:
>
>A while back you had some words of wisdom for a person who'd asked about
>getting enough metal to metal contact for ground plane purposes with his
>comm antenna. You mentioned to him that riveting his doubler plates to the
>skin would provide plenty of contact when paint and other debris was
>squeezed out during the riveting process. I have a little different twist
>on this question. I made doubler plates to go inside the fuselage but don't
>really want to rivet them on. The number of fasteners that hold the
>antennas to the airplane will hold doublers to the skin and I don't see a
>need to rivet the doublers on. This however, could cause trouble. Since
>I've already primed the inside of the aluminum fuselage skin, would like to
>prime the doublers so they don't corrode when water gets between them and
>the fuselage skin and don't want to remove the primer from the skin......I
>fear I will have insufficient connection to get good ground plane action.
>The comm antennas come with a cork gasket that's supposed to go between the
>outside skin and the antenna so that limits ground plane connection on the
>outside skin (presently bare aluminum). Am I gonna have to bite the bullet
>and rivet the doublers to get some connection or ????(the doublers have
>nutplates riveted to them to accept the antenna fasteners). Any words of
>wisdom here? The antennas are the standard store bought COMANT bent whips.
>Thanks.
Welcome to the club. When somebody decides to design a new airplane,
they start with aero and power plant guys. Then come the structures
and processes folks. After awhile the systems folks put in fuel,
hydraulics and flight controls. When the 'airplane' is done, some
guy with radios, cabin entertainment systems, etc is told, "Okay,
you can have whatever space is left over . . . but don't CHANGE
anything."
This approach to an HF antenna installation (without CHANGING
anything) has resulted in a situation where other equipment items
inside the all metal airplane are suffering huge interfering
energies from the HF transmitter. Had the structures and processes
guys been involved since day-one to make the metal serve as both
airplane and antenna, we'd have several $millions$ still in the
corporate pockets instead of blowing that cash on band-aid
fixes to delivered aircraft.
Now, on a much smaller scale, you're presented with the same
kind of problem. The laws of physics are immutable. The primary,
long term, gas-tight connections between your antenna base and
airframe happen right under the head and nut of the fasteners.
If you need a doubler, then it needs to be well bonded
to the airframe . . . and that means rivets or high pressure
joints between ground conductors. If you choose not to
rivet the doubler, you need to clean 2 extra surfaces before
installation. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/Antenna_Installation.gif
If the doubler is riveted, then surfaces between doubler
and skin can be left as-manufactured but it wouldn't hurt
to clean these too. I'd pitch the cork gasket and go for a
thin bead of moisture sealant around outside edge of antenna
base that extrudes out to zero-thickness at time of
installation. PRESSURE and CLEANLINESS around the immediate
circumference of the mounting screws is where it all happens.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Antennas- ground plane. |
Pretty ironic, isn't it, considering that the little guy with the radios is
about to install stuff worth more than the rest of the entire airplane and
powerplant put together!
Dave Morris
At 11:05 AM 12/20/2005, you wrote:
>
> Welcome to the club. When somebody decides to design a new airplane,
> they start with aero and power plant guys. Then come the structures
> and processes folks. After awhile the systems folks put in fuel,
> hydraulics and flight controls. When the 'airplane' is done, some
> guy with radios, cabin entertainment systems, etc is told, "Okay,
> you can have whatever space is left over . . . but don't CHANGE
> anything."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? |
The links to George's proposals are:
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelays21re.jpg
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelaysalt23x1.jpg
I'm at work right now, but if I recall correctly, the only major change I've made
to George's second .jpg is to route the alternator output directly to the starter
solenoid hot terminal, as Bob does in Z-22, the "run-on" fix.
The SD-8 PM alternator output is applied directly to the battery, on the cold side
of the ANL 350 A fuse, and is controlled in the way shown in Z-25.
The Battery contactor becomes a Bosch-type relay of 75 amps (less if the alternator
output is less), again George's idea. A good weight saver. The DC power
switch of Z-13/8 now becomes a SPST design, as it only has to switch the relay
coil current. The alternator is always on when the main bus is powered up,
and is controlled by pulling the 5A field breaker if needed. Unlike George, I
would go with an ER alterenator and a Ford regulator for now.
The only wires penerating the firewall are the AC wires from the SD-8 to its regulator
and OVP circuitry, the fatwire from the battery to the battery bus, the
regulator field wire to the main ER alternator, and the starter solenoid wire
to the starter momentary switch. The relationships of major components to the
firewall are well-detailed in George's jpeg.
It would take but a minute to sketch out what I'm proposing, from the above references.
Note that the E-bus and main bus would bear the same relationship to the Batt Bus
as depicted in the 'Connection Z-diagrams.
-Stormy
From: Dan Beadle <Dan.Beadle(at)hq.inclinesoftworks.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue??
I am interested in seeing your design. I would appreciate seeing a
copy.
I don't know whether the technical sharing issue is file sharing
(upload) or schematic capture. If you are having trouble uploading to a
shared file, please send it directly to me. If it is schematic capture,
try this free-ware schematic capture http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm
Another great product is Orcad, which I use every day in business. They
have an evaluation version, but you have to wait for the CD.
http://www.ema-eda.com/products/orcad/requestdemocd.aspx
Dan Beadle
dan(at)inclinesoftworks.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? |
Fixed the improper link typo in #2...
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelaysalt23xi.jpg
-----Original Message-----
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue??
The links to George's proposals are:
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelays21re.jpg
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelaysalt23x1.jpg
I'm at work right now, but if I recall correctly, the only major change I've
made to George's second .jpg is to route the alternator output directly to the
starter solenoid hot terminal, as Bob does in Z-22, the "run-on" fix.
The SD-8 PM alternator output is applied directly to the battery, on the cold
side of the ANL 350 A fuse, and is controlled in the way shown in Z-25.
The Battery contactor becomes a Bosch-type relay of 75 amps (less if the
alternator output is less), again George's idea. A good weight saver. The DC
power switch of Z-13/8 now becomes a SPST design, as it only has to switch the
relay coil current. The alternator is always on when the main bus is powered
up, and is controlled by pulling the 5A field breaker if needed. Unlike George,
I would go with an ER alterenator and a Ford regulator for now.
The only wires penerating the firewall are the AC wires from the SD-8 to its
regulator and OVP circuitry, the fatwire from the battery to the battery bus,
the regulator field wire to the main ER alternator, and the starter solenoid
wire to the starter momentary switch. The relationships of major components to
the firewall are well-detailed in George's jpeg.
It would take but a minute to sketch out what I'm proposing, from the above
references.
Note that the E-bus and main bus would bear the same relationship to the Batt
Bus as depicted in the 'Connection Z-diagrams.
-Stormy
From: Dan Beadle <Dan.Beadle(at)hq.inclinesoftworks.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue??
I am interested in seeing your design. I would appreciate seeing a
copy.
I don't know whether the technical sharing issue is file sharing
(upload) or schematic capture. If you are having trouble uploading to a
shared file, please send it directly to me. If it is schematic capture,
try this free-ware schematic capture http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm
Another great product is Orcad, which I use every day in business. They
have an evaluation version, but you have to wait for the CD.
http://www.ema-eda.com/products/orcad/requestdemocd.aspx
Dan Beadle
dan(at)inclinesoftworks.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? |
Third time's a charm, hopefully. Cut and paste can result in great embarrassment
for the careless.
http://img500.imageshack.us/img500/3753/norelaysalt23xi.jpg
-----Original Message-----
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue??
Fixed the improper link typo in #2...
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelaysalt23xi.jpg
-----Original Message-----
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue??
The links to George's proposals are:
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Miniature air driven generator |
Hi Bob and all,
One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in
his modified Shoestring racer.
His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for
his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator
inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA
"is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he
spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to
tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag.
Here is my question :
Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could
suit his needs ?
Any input appreciated,
Thanks in advance,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Miniature air driven generator |
Send him to a bicycle shop for the generator and to a model plane place to
get a prop..
===========
At 01:35 PM 12/20/2005, you wrote:
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in
>his modified Shoestring racer.
>His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for
>his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator
>inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA
>"is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he
>spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to
>tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag.
>
>Here is my question :
>
>Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could
>suit his needs ?
>
>Any input appreciated,
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Regards,
>Gilles Thesee
>Grenoble, France
>http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Oh God, strippers again |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
I bought a stripper from GAry and it works like a champ on the Tefzel
22759 wire. I don't have the model number. YOu might email him and ask if
this one is the same as the batch he sold a couple of years ago.
John
wrote:
> 45-1610 "MIL-W-81044/12B Type Kynar wire", Gary Edwards
> [gary21sn(at)hotmail.com] has one of these for sale.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Miniature air driven generator |
These are common on sailboats. Search the sailing sites on the web.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator
--> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Bob and all,
One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in his
modified Shoestring racer.
His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for his
engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator inside
the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA "is all
he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he spends
several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to tape the
blast air inlet to reduce drag.
Here is my question :
Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could
suit his needs ?
Any input appreciated,
Thanks in advance,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Miniature air driven generator |
Tell him to use a conformal solar panel instead. Doesn't interfere with
air flow like a taped blast tube (LOL!) would in a race plane.
Dave Morris
At 03:35 PM 12/20/2005, you wrote:
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in
>his modified Shoestring racer.
>His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for
>his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator
>inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA
>"is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he
>spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to
>tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag.
>
>Here is my question :
>
>Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could
>suit his needs ?
>
>Any input appreciated,
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Regards,
>Gilles Thesee
>Grenoble, France
>http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? |
Stormy
Yes I see that we have different goals. Part of my reasoning was that
replacing a contactor with a smaller relay plus an ANL seems to require
more parts and more connections and more space to install it. And the
heavy wire to the starter would still be always hot. For me, one
contactor was simpler and also seemed to do more but I'm not as
concerned about the weight or the contactor coil current. Running the
starter current through a contactor is merely a different feature that
may or may not have some value. A 350 amp fused heavy wire will be
capable of some serious sparking and welding. OTOH a landing incident is
probably much more likely than an in-flight fire and that doesn't leave
much opportunity to turn off a master switch before the crunch anyway.
FWIW we discussed incidents of stuck on starters a few years ago. That
might be another possible advantage of running the starter current
through a contactor.
Ken
sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>Okay, but why have a contactor sized to carry starter current when it isn't necessary?
>
>I'm after _weight savings_ here, and the amp budget savings from doing away with
the battery contactor is an extra bonus, since it might eliminate the need
to craft a separate endurance bus to deal with the main alternator failure scenario.
A fuse and a 4 oz Bosch relay weigh less than a battery contactor, and
the hold-in current looks like 300mA. That leaves substantial SD-8 current to
play with even if there's no E-bus and the relay must stay energized.
>
>Despite his colorful reputation in some circles, George might be onto something
here. Since I can't post a schematic easily until later in the week, have a
look at the VAF site. I'll go look for the link.
>
>-Stormy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue??
>
>
>Hi Stormy
>Or you could just use a regular contactor instead of a 75 amp unit and
>then you can route starter current through it. That might also eliminate
>the need for the ANL fuse. Worked for me.
>Gmcjetpilot is the only person to ever make my delete message filter
>list so I am not familiar with any post he has made about this.
><< Snip
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Miniature air driven generator |
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in
>his modified Shoestring racer.
>His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for
>his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator
>inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA
>"is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he
>spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to
>tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag.
>Here is my question :
>Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could
>suit his needs ? Gilles Thesee
Hi Gilles,
I am a little uncertain how he wants to configure the generator, but
sailboats have dozens of similar devices.
Also, has he considered photovoltaic?
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say."
(Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Miniature air driven generator |
He might look into solar cells for keeping his battery up. They can be had
in a very thin format that could be surface mounted or attached to a canopy
cover in a clear plastic pocket.
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> Hi Bob and all,
>
> One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in
> his modified Shoestring racer.
> His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for
> his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator
> inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA
> "is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he
> spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to
> tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag.
>
> Here is my question :
>
> Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could
> suit his needs ?
>
> Any input appreciated,
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
> Grenoble, France
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Miniature air driven generator |
There are small) solar panels sold to keep the battery topped up on cars
that sit for a long time. They are generally cheap products imported from
overseas:
http://www.baproducts.com/sm831.htm
http://www.batterystuff.com/productdisplay.html?id=424&c=9&f=12_Volt_Solar_C
ycle_Saver_1Watt
http://www.batterystuff.com/productdisplay.html?id=423&c=9&f=12_Volt_Solar_B
atterySaver_Plus_1.8Watt
http://www.global-merchants.com/home/booster.htm
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Jewell
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator
-->
He might look into solar cells for keeping his battery up. They can be had
in a very thin format that could be surface mounted or attached to a canopy
cover in a clear plastic pocket.
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> Hi Bob and all,
>
> One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in
> his modified Shoestring racer.
> His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for
> his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator
> inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA
> "is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he
> spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to
> tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag.
>
> Here is my question :
>
> Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could
> suit his needs ?
>
> Any input appreciated,
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
> Grenoble, France
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> |
This item showed up in my weekly NASA Tech briefs email at work today.
Sounds interesting but, as with many Tech Briefs articles, seems like it's
the basic science waiting for the engineering and capital to make it a
usable product. In any case, maybe some entrepreneur on the list would be
interested in doing so. Sounds to me like it would be one heck of an energy
source.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Deep into wires and instruments.
SPOTLIGHT ON:
Lower Cost, Higher Performance Batteries
This advanced material exploits the excellent cycle life of carbon fiber and
the high gravimetric and volumetric capacity of a tin-based system. This
system is being utilized as a composite anode in lithium-ion batteries.
The attributes of this proposed technology will definitely fulfill the
battery requirements where cycle life of more than 30,000 cycles, high rate
applications (>4 kW/kg), rapid charge/discharging (tens of seconds), and a
calendar life of more than 10 years.
http://link.abpi.net/l.php?20051219EB2
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Miniature air driven generator |
Craig Payne a crit :
>
>There are small) solar panels sold to keep the battery topped up on cars
>that sit for a long time. They are generally cheap products imported from
>overseas:
>
>http://www.baproducts.com/sm831.htm
>http://www.batterystuff.com/productdisplay.html?id=424&c=9&f=12_Volt_Solar_C
>ycle_Saver_1Watt
>http://www.batterystuff.com/productdisplay.html?id=423&c=9&f=12_Volt_Solar_B
>atterySaver_Plus_1.8Watt
>http://www.global-merchants.com/home/booster.htm
>
>-- Craig
>
>
Thanks to Craig, Jim, Eric, Dave, Paul for your responses.
The air driven thing seems definitly too awkward. Solar might be the way
to go.
Thanks again,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? |
Don't Crash!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Werner Schneider
Subject: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security
issue??
As I did not get any feedback 2nd tryl,
>
> I was discussing recently with a guy which has NO main battery
> contactor (CB setup) about his setup and he did ask me something which
> I could not answer light heartily.
>
> The main battery contactor which is supposed to switch off the big
> juice in case of an emergency landing is switched through a cable
> going to ground. Now imagine your setup in a metal airplane and you
> crash, is there not a certain danger, that you break the cable going
> to the contactor and short it to ground, this switching on the main
> battery contactor and voila you have a bomb named battery in your
> crashing plane able to deliver several 100 Amps.
>
> This argument let me think and I would appreciate the insight of you
> folks on the list about that scenario?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Werner (Glastar with main battery contactor behind my seat)
>
--
12/21/2005
--
12/21/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Crash safety of battery contactor switching philosophy |
>
>Dear all,
>
>I was discussing recently with a guy which has NO main battery contactor
>(CB setup) about his setup and he did ask me something which I could not
>answer light heartily.
>
>The main battery contactor which is supposed to switch off the big juice
>in case of an emergency landing is switched through a cable going to
>ground. Now imagine your setup in a metal airplane and you crash, is
>there not a certain danger, that you break the cable going to the
>contactor and short it to ground, this switching on the main battery
>contactor and voila you have a bomb named battery in your crashing plane
>able to deliver several 100 Amps.
>
>This argument let me think and I would appreciate the insight of you
>folks on the list about that scenario?
The ground-to-energize configuration for battery
contactors has been around for a very long time
and I suspect thought about many times. I've not
had a discussion with folks over in the bent-metal
department about it.
They have noted over the history of their careers
digging through the pieces that when the battery
is ejected from the fuselage on impact, the airplane
catches fire fewer times than if the battery is
contained. An anecdotal observation at best.
I've dug through piles of bent-metal quite a few
times too and I would offer this observation. For
the insulation on a wire to be compromised mechanically
takes force. Fat wires will resist the forces of crumpling
metal thus placing insulation a greater risk than would
a 22 or 20 AWG wire that is flexible and morel likely
than not, relatively protected by other wires in
the bundle. Probability of compromising insulation on
a strand of 20AWG wire versus 4 or 2AWG wire from the
same scenario is very small.
You could drive the battery contactor from
the battery bus through a small fuse if you
wish.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dsvs(at)comcast.net |
Bob,
A quick question on the practice of using metal stock as a buss between the battery
and starter contactor. Is brass OK, or is copper needed? Is two layers
of .032 thick enough? Any other comments? Thanks. Don VS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dsvs(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Battery Contactor toStarter Contactor Buss |
Bob,
A quick question on the practice of using metal stock as a buss between the
battery and starter contactor. Is brass OK, or is copper needed? Is two
layers of .032 thick enough? Any other comments? Thanks. Don VS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net> |
| Subject: | Handy Storage Bins |
Greetings,
I found some great storage bins at Wal-Mart for organizing small things like electrical
connectors. They are in the fishing tackle department and are called,
"Mega Multi Tackle Carrier" and cost $14.25 each. Each one is a plastic box
that holds four trays. Each tray has a lid and can be divided into 20 individual
bins. Each tray is 14" X 8.5".
I bought one to store all the little electrical connectors and stuff I'm buying.
My Wal-Mart had them stacked on the shelf with the bottom facing out, so that
you couldn't see what they were; you might have to look closely to find them.
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy #257, starting wiring next month
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Handy Storage Bins |
If you look hard enough in Wally-Mart (possibly the hardware section but
not in the fishing section) they also have 11" x 14" transparent trays.
24 compartments, all accessible when you open the hinged lid. These
were cheaper (about cdn$10) and almost as nice as the industrial units
that I used to purchase. Saves a lot of time searching for the right
bolt and such. Now I just go to the tray marked electric connectors or
AN3 etc. and it is also obvious when I need to order more of something.
Ken
Dennis Johnson wrote:
>
>Greetings,
>
>I found some great storage bins at Wal-Mart for organizing small things like electrical
connectors. They are in the fishing tackle department and are called,
"Mega Multi Tackle Carrier" and cost $14.25 each. Each one is a plastic box
that holds four trays. Each tray has a lid and can be divided into 20 individual
bins. Each tray is 14" X 8.5".
>
>I bought one to store all the little electrical connectors and stuff I'm buying.
My Wal-Mart had them stacked on the shelf with the bottom facing out, so that
you couldn't see what they were; you might have to look closely to find them.
>
>Dennis Johnson
>Lancair Legacy #257, starting wiring next month
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handy Storage Bins |
That's what I have, Ken...actually three of them...I found there were a
couple with different sized compartments in them.
Have them all in the hangar now, with various small parts in them.
Used a sharpie to mark the clear cover with the AN, MS numbers and their
english size equivalent (example, 10-32 x 2), etc. The non aviation and
military designations were for the benefit of some of the mechanics in
the FBO there...
Harley Dixon
Ken wrote:
>
>If you look hard enough in Wally-Mart (possibly the hardware section but
>not in the fishing section) they also have 11" x 14" transparent trays.
>24 compartments, all accessible when you open the hinged lid. These
>were cheaper (about cdn$10) and almost as nice as the industrial units
>that I used to purchase. Saves a lot of time searching for the right
>bolt and such. Now I just go to the tray marked electric connectors or
>AN3 etc. and it is also obvious when I need to order more of something.
>Ken
>
>Dennis Johnson wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>Greetings,
>>
>>I found some great storage bins at Wal-Mart for organizing small things like
electrical connectors. They are in the fishing tackle department and are called,
"Mega Multi Tackle Carrier" and cost $14.25 each. Each one is a plastic box
that holds four trays. Each tray has a lid and can be divided into 20 individual
bins. Each tray is 14" X 8.5".
>>
>>I bought one to store all the little electrical connectors and stuff I'm buying.
My Wal-Mart had them stacked on the shelf with the bottom facing out, so
that you couldn't see what they were; you might have to look closely to find them.
>>
>>Dennis Johnson
>>Lancair Legacy #257, starting wiring next month
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry2DT(at)aol.com |
Stormy & List
I'm using ExpressSCH, suggested to me by Vern Little on this list. It is
part of the same free software, and find it easy to draw, and better yet,
modify schematics. I thought the learning curve quite manageable, and I'm not
a
computer geek at all. It was designed for electrical, comes with lots of
symbols, easy to construct your own. I really like the idea that whilst working
on
actual wiring, if I come up with a *bright* idea, I can pop into the
computer and make the schematic change quickly. I have basically duplicated Bob's
Z-11 on it, and works for me. Too bad it doesn't read ACAD files though. I'm
glad Vern pointed it out to me, has saved countless hours...Thanks again, Vern.
_http://www.expresspcb.com/_ (http://www.expresspcb.com/)
Best of all... did I mention it's free?? Easy download also. No, I don't
work for them...
Jerry Cochran
Wilsonville, OR
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security
issue??
I've never used a file-sharing feature; I guess the Matronics lists have one
now,
but that's new to me, sorry. I need to get with the times.
The big issue for me is drafting and scanning images. I tried using
something
like PCExpress software to draw schematics, but found it cumbersome beyond
any
usefulness to me. I might take a peek at the one you suggest.
-Stormy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus bar material and fabrication techniques |
>
>
> Bob,
> A quick question on the practice of using metal stock as a buss between the
> battery and starter contactor. Is brass OK, or is copper needed? Is two
> layers of .032 thick enough? Any other comments? Thanks. Don VS
Brass and copper are fine . . . in fact, brass is a little less
reactive and probably better. You can purchase brass strip stock
from many hardware and hobby stores from the K&S Metals display
that will look something like this:
http://www.ksmetals.com/HobbyMerchandisers/jumbo_metal.asp?Title=Hobby_Merchandisers
These displays will include .032 thick x 1/2" strips in various
lengths depending on how big a display the merchant chooses to
put on his floor.
A singl, .032" x 1/2" strip is fine. No need to double-up.
If necessary to "splice" a bus, solder the two pieces together in
a 1/2" overlap centered on one of the breaker screws.
Of course, one can always cut their own bus bar material from
flat stock. This same material can be used to fabricate jumpers
between fat terminals of contactors mounted adjacent to each
other.
Don't depend on a screw to maintain bus integrity. Here's a how-not-to-
do it series of pictures:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/Bus_Bar_Not_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/Bus_Bar_Not_2.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/Bus_Bar_Not_3.jpg
This bus bar and breaker assembly was pulled from a certified
aircraft. All indications were that the assembly left the
factory in this condition. One loose screw kills all the downstream
connections to the bus . . . meaning that the "bus" was not
a bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Handy Storage Bins |
Home Depot has something similar for about US$10. Some of the dividers are
moveable.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Handy Storage Bins
If you look hard enough in Wally-Mart (possibly the hardware section but not
in the fishing section) they also have 11" x 14" transparent trays.
24 compartments, all accessible when you open the hinged lid. These were
cheaper (about cdn$10) and almost as nice as the industrial units that I
used to purchase. Saves a lot of time searching for the right bolt and
such. Now I just go to the tray marked electric connectors or
AN3 etc. and it is also obvious when I need to order more of something.
Ken
Dennis Johnson wrote:
>-->
>
>Greetings,
>
>I found some great storage bins at Wal-Mart for organizing small things
like electrical connectors. They are in the fishing tackle department and
are called, "Mega Multi Tackle Carrier" and cost $14.25 each. Each one is a
plastic box that holds four trays. Each tray has a lid and can be divided
into 20 individual bins. Each tray is 14" X 8.5".
>
>I bought one to store all the little electrical connectors and stuff I'm
buying. My Wal-Mart had them stacked on the shelf with the bottom facing
out, so that you couldn't see what they were; you might have to look closely
to find them.
>
>Dennis Johnson
>Lancair Legacy #257, starting wiring next month
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
I spent days on that software during free moments at work, trying to cobble together
a realistic looking schematic symbol for an incandescent lamp; too time
intensive for me. I recall I was even hand-assembling design elements to make
a molex plug symbol. By the time I was done, I realized the components I had
custom-modeled were not to any kind of reasonable scale with each other, so I
gave up on the whole undertaking.
I'm sure it's doable, but I decided it lacked the level of user-friendliness I
desired. Great for electronics, no doubt, but not for electrics.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: PCB Express
Stormy & List
I'm using ExpressSCH, suggested to me by Vern Little on this list. It is
part of the same free software, and find it easy to draw, and better yet,
modify schematics. I thought the learning curve quite manageable, and I'm not
a
computer geek at all. It was designed for electrical, comes with lots of
symbols, easy to construct your own. I really like the idea that whilst working
on
actual wiring, if I come up with a *bright* idea, I can pop into the
computer and make the schematic change quickly. I have basically duplicated
Bob's
Z-11 on it, and works for me. Too bad it doesn't read ACAD files though. I'm
glad Vern pointed it out to me, has saved countless hours...Thanks again, Vern.
_http://www.expresspcb.com/_ (http://www.expresspcb.com/)
Best of all... did I mention it's free?? Easy download also. No, I don't
work for them...
Jerry Cochran
Wilsonville, OR
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security
issue??
I've never used a file-sharing feature; I guess the Matronics lists have one
now,
but that's new to me, sorry. I need to get with the times.
The big issue for me is drafting and scanning images. I tried using
something
like PCExpress software to draw schematics, but found it cumbersome beyond
any
usefulness to me. I might take a peek at the one you suggest.
-Stormy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dabusmith(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Ignition retard module for Rotax 912uls |
It would be great to have a module that would plug into the ignition system
on a Rotax. If it retarded the spark below 1400 RPM or so it might tame the
harshness this engine sometimes has during cold starting. Does something like
that exist?
Dave Smith
WA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
I have used ExpressPCB for over three years. It has a schematic and a
board drawing component. I find it easy to use whether to draw schematics
from which to use as an aid to help you make the right connections on your
board design (it highlights all connections that should go together when you
click on a component) or skip the schematic phase and go straight to a
board design.
It does have some limitations compared to the more up end design tools,
but the learning curve is not bad, the number of components in their library
reasonable (although you always would like more) and you can actually create
your own components and hold them in a library for repeated use. Some tools
will not let you do a board unless you lay out a schematic first (which is
probably not a bad idea), I like the freedom to start with a board design if
I think it simple enough.
And as mentioned the software is free. The cost of 3 boards (restricted to
3.8x2.5") is $59. The boards are well made and come with a layer of solder
on the copper traces (which makes it much easier to solder components).
There are other board options of course (costing more I might add), but I
have found them very responsive. It includes them even duplicating a board
order when the one they originally shipped went awry at no cost.
Ed Anderson
> Stormy & List
>
> I'm using ExpressSCH, suggested to me by Vern Little on this list. It is
> part of the same free software, and find it easy to draw, and better yet,
> modify schematics. I thought the learning curve quite manageable, and I'm
> not a
> computer geek at all. It was designed for electrical, comes with lots of
> symbols, easy to construct your own. I really like the idea that whilst
> working on
> actual wiring, if I come up with a *bright* idea, I can pop into the
> computer and make the schematic change quickly. I have basically
> duplicated Bob's
> Z-11 on it, and works for me. Too bad it doesn't read ACAD files though.
> I'm
> glad Vern pointed it out to me, has saved countless hours...Thanks again,
> Vern.
>
> _http://www.expresspcb.com/_ (http://www.expresspcb.com/)
>
> Best of all... did I mention it's free?? Easy download also. No, I don't
> work for them...
>
> Jerry Cochran
> Wilsonville, OR
>
> From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security
> issue??
>
>
> I've never used a file-sharing feature; I guess the Matronics lists have
> one
> now,
> but that's new to me, sorry. I need to get with the times.
>
> The big issue for me is drafting and scanning images. I tried using
> something
> like PCExpress software to draw schematics, but found it cumbersome
> beyond
> any
> usefulness to me. I might take a peek at the one you suggest.
>
> -Stormy
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Link to B&C Specialty products |
Bob, the link to B&C seems to be missing from your home page, or at the
very least, obscured.
Dave Morris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Miniature air driven generator |
Gilles,
A small solar panel is the way to go.
However, be sure that you have some simple controller/regulator that will
prevent the charge voltage from exceeding approx. 13.3 volts. A panel with
current output as low as 0.25 amp can gas out a lead acid battery if left
connected long enough in bright sunlight. I suspect a small panel with a
current limitations of 0.1 amp or less may not really require a controller
but, it would not hurt to have a simple zener diode with a gate of 13.3 -
13.6 volts.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> Craig Payne a crit :
>
>>
>>
>>There are small) solar panels sold to keep the battery topped up on cars
>>that sit for a long time. They are generally cheap products imported from
>>overseas:
>>
>>http://www.baproducts.com/sm831.htm
>>http://www.batterystuff.com/productdisplay.html?id=424&c=9&f=12_Volt_Solar_C
>>ycle_Saver_1Watt
>>http://www.batterystuff.com/productdisplay.html?id=423&c=9&f=12_Volt_Solar_B
>>atterySaver_Plus_1.8Watt
>>http://www.global-merchants.com/home/booster.htm
>>
>>-- Craig
>>
>>
>
> Thanks to Craig, Jim, Eric, Dave, Paul for your responses.
> The air driven thing seems definitly too awkward. Solar might be the way
> to go.
>
> Thanks again,
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
> Grenoble, France
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
I may try ExpressPCB again; I'd love to have a professional-looking wirebook for
my POH. My feeling at the time was: I'd be certifiably nuts by the time I got
a reasonable alternator, starter, contactor, busses, light bulbs, and progressive-transfer
switches created and into the user library. Now it's all coming
back to me: the minutiae of trying to draw progressive transfer dpdt switches
using their collection of curves and straights and dots. I wish I had spent
that keyboard time last year day-trading; I'd have more to show for it ;-)
I ended up with switch symbols that were 5x the size of all the other standard
components - it looked hideous.
Does anyone have a component library already done that I could import? I'd be
glad to sponge off someone else. Otherwise, I think I'd do better with ruler,
pen & ink.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PCB Express
I have used ExpressPCB for over three years. It has a schematic and a
board drawing component. I find it easy to use whether to draw schematics
from which to use as an aid to help you make the right connections on your
board design (it highlights all connections that should go together when you
click on a component) or skip the schematic phase and go straight to a
board design.
It does have some limitations compared to the more up end design tools,
but the learning curve is not bad, the number of components in their library
reasonable (although you always would like more) and you can actually create
your own components and hold them in a library for repeated use. Some tools
will not let you do a board unless you lay out a schematic first (which is
probably not a bad idea), I like the freedom to start with a board design if
I think it simple enough.
And as mentioned the software is free. The cost of 3 boards (restricted to
3.8x2.5") is $59. The boards are well made and come with a layer of solder
on the copper traces (which makes it much easier to solder components).
There are other board options of course (costing more I might add), but I
have found them very responsive. It includes them even duplicating a board
order when the one they originally shipped went awry at no cost.
Ed Anderson
> Stormy & List
>
> I'm using ExpressSCH, suggested to me by Vern Little on this list. It is
> part of the same free software, and find it easy to draw, and better yet,
> modify schematics. I thought the learning curve quite manageable, and I'm
> not a
> computer geek at all. It was designed for electrical, comes with lots of
> symbols, easy to construct your own. I really like the idea that whilst
> working on
> actual wiring, if I come up with a *bright* idea, I can pop into the
> computer and make the schematic change quickly. I have basically
> duplicated Bob's
> Z-11 on it, and works for me. Too bad it doesn't read ACAD files though.
> I'm
> glad Vern pointed it out to me, has saved countless hours...Thanks again,
> Vern.
>
> _http://www.expresspcb.com/_ (http://www.expresspcb.com/)
>
> Best of all... did I mention it's free?? Easy download also. No, I don't
> work for them...
>
> Jerry Cochran
> Wilsonville, OR
>
> From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security
> issue??
>
>
> I've never used a file-sharing feature; I guess the Matronics lists have
> one
> now,
> but that's new to me, sorry. I need to get with the times.
>
> The big issue for me is drafting and scanning images. I tried using
> something
> like PCExpress software to draw schematics, but found it cumbersome
> beyond
> any
> usefulness to me. I might take a peek at the one you suggest.
>
> -Stormy
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)telepath.com> |
> Does anyone have a component library already done that I could
import?
Ever look at EAGLE (freeware) pcb layout? They have quite a few
libraries.
http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
Here is a direct link to a complete aircraft electrical system design
(for an RV-9A) and a component library that includes several of B&C's
progressive transfer switches etc. It is due for an update (to remove
the alternator OVP contactor), but it is complete otherwise.
http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html
Vern Little
Jim Baker wrote:
>
>
>
>>Does anyone have a component library already done that I could
>>
>>
>import?
>
>Ever look at EAGLE (freeware) pcb layout? They have quite a few
>libraries.
>
>http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm
>
>
>Jim Baker
>580.788.2779
>'71 SV, 492TC
>Elmore City, OK
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Link to B&C Specialty products |
>
>
>Bob, the link to B&C seems to be missing from your home page, or at the
>very least, obscured.
I've had invitations from many folks for, "If you'll link
to my website, I'll link to yours." I had a links page for
several years and it grew like a fungus along with the hours
required to make sure it stayed current. I finally abandoned
the effort and established a policy of "no links". A few
folks noted that I DID have a link to B&C.
Yes. I actively supported B&C for three years or so after
they acquired my parts business. Now that I've started
developing a line of products completely unique to the 'Connection,
my business model calls for a focused effort toward those goals.
Further, B&C's web-presence is solid enough that it doesn't need
my solitary link.
So when the next invitation to join a Mutual Linking Society
comes along, I can accurately fall back on the current
policy. Perhaps one day when I'm grossing a couple hundred
grand a year, I'll hire someone to manage that sort of
effort. But aside from being a good neighbor on the
'net, it's going to be hard to justify it from the perspective
of return on investment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Brusehaver" <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com> |
I haddn't heard of gEDA until today, it is described
in Linux Journal this month.
http://www.geda.seul.org/
They have schematic capture, spice simulation, pcb
layout, and a bunch of other tools. The outputs
are well documented file formats parsable with
perl, or other tools.
>
>
>> Does anyone have a component library already done that I could
> import?
>
> Ever look at EAGLE (freeware) pcb layout? They have quite a few
> libraries.
>
> http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm
>
>
> Jim Baker
> 580.788.2779
> '71 SV, 492TC
> Elmore City, OK
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Miniature air driven generator |
David Lloyd a crit :
>
>Gilles,
>A small solar panel is the way to go.
>However, be sure that you have some simple controller/regulator that will
>prevent the charge voltage from exceeding approx. 13.3 volts. A panel with
>current output as low as 0.25 amp can gas out a lead acid battery if left
>connected long enough in bright sunlight. I suspect a small panel with a
>current limitations of 0.1 amp or less may not really require a controller
>but, it would not hurt to have a simple zener diode with a gate of 13.3 -
>13.6 volts.
>David
>
>
David,
Thank you for responding.
I'll pass the info on to my friend.
Would you care to share more details about the regulator part ? I'm
afraid my buddy will ask me to craft the thing ;-)
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Miniature air driven generator |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>David Lloyd a crit :
>
>
> >
> >Gilles,
> >A small solar panel is the way to go.
> >However, be sure that you have some simple controller/regulator that will
> >prevent the charge voltage from exceeding approx. 13.3 volts. A panel with
> >current output as low as 0.25 amp can gas out a lead acid battery if left
> >connected long enough in bright sunlight. I suspect a small panel with a
> >current limitations of 0.1 amp or less may not really require a controller
> >but, it would not hurt to have a simple zener diode with a gate of 13.3 -
> >13.6 volts.
> >David
> >
> >
>
>David,
>
>Thank you for responding.
>I'll pass the info on to my friend.
>Would you care to share more details about the regulator part ? I'm
>afraid my buddy will ask me to craft the thing ;-)
Here's an compilation of data on battery maintenance that's
been on the website for some time but never linked except in
e-mail messages. I've added linkage from both the What's New
page and Articles contents page:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Battery_Maintenance/Charger_Maintainers.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Miniature air driven generator |
>>I'll pass the info on to my friend.
>>Would you care to share more details about the regulator part ? I'm
>>afraid my buddy will ask me to craft the thing ;-)
>>
>>
>
> Here's an compilation of data on battery maintenance that's
> been on the website for some time but never linked except in
> e-mail messages. I've added linkage from both the What's New
> page and Articles contents page:
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Battery_Maintenance/Charger_Maintainers.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Good morning Bob,
Great info.
Thanks a lot.
Merry Christmas to you and all on the list,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator installation |
Sorry to take so long to get back on this. It slipped to the back
burners during a busy time . . .
Your problem is that you're comparing too many different diagrams.
The SD-20 and SD-8 were not intended to be interchangeable.
If you want to use an SD-8, I'll suggest you follow Z-13. The
SD-20 CAN be installed like Z-12 . . . this is how it's done
on certified aircraft as an ADDITION to an existing system. But
once you've gone to the expense of acquiring this large a second
alternator, Z-14 might be better. But EITHER is fine, Z-12 or Z-14.
Don't mix B&C drawings and 'Connection drawings. Do one or the
other. There are a variety of small ways our drawings might differ
but they're insignificant in terms of functionality. Attempting
to "meld" these differences is not a useful exercise.
Bob . . .
>
>For what ever reason I'm having trouble fitting this SD8 alternator into the
>single battery, dual alternator set. When looking at the Z-12 diagram the
>installation for the 20A alternator looks simple. Same as 60A alternator.
>Wire off of +ve terminal on start contector, through shunt, etc.
>
>Now looking at the SD8 installation wiring here:
>
>http://www.bandcspecialty.com/PM_OV504-500_RevE.pdf
>
>The alt does not connect to the +ve side of the starter contactor. Instead
>there is a single fuse forward of the firewall and 2 breakers in the main
>bus.
>
>Questions:
>Is the 15 amp fuse in front of the firewall a fuse link? If so what size
>should I make the link since I'm running the SD8 not the 20A alt.
>
>Where do I place the shunt?
>
>So I'm assuming the differences here are:
>The 2A fuse on the bus is the alt field fuse.
>The 10A fuse on the bus is the power.
>
>I'm sure this is easier than I'm making it but for some reason I just can't
>twist my head around this.
>Why is the SD8 connection so different than the 20 Amp alt.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Resource..... |
>
>Ran across this neat/consice bit of an info table this evening....
>
>http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html
Nice compilation of useful data. I've .pdf'd the critter
into my reference files. Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oh God, strippers again |
>
>
>I've seen three different Ideal Stripmaster part numbers bandied about.
>Which is the correct model for stripping the Tefzel wire sold by B&C or
>SteinAir?
>
>45-174 Described as being for "1000 volt Teflon"
>45-177 "600 volt Teflon" (THIS ONE WOULD BE THE CLOSEST FIT)
>45-1610 "MIL-W-81044/12B Type Kynar wire", Gary Edwards
>[gary21sn(at)hotmail.com] has one of these for sale.
>
>-- Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator installation |
Hello Bob,
you had once a diagram of the SD8 output on the web I'm not able to
locate it again.
Many thanks for your help
Werner
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>Sorry to take so long to get back on this. It slipped to the back
>burners during a busy time . . .
>
>Your problem is that you're comparing too many different diagrams.
>The SD-20 and SD-8 were not intended to be interchangeable.
>If you want to use an SD-8, I'll suggest you follow Z-13. The
>SD-20 CAN be installed like Z-12 . . . this is how it's done
>on certified aircraft as an ADDITION to an existing system. But
>once you've gone to the expense of acquiring this large a second
>alternator, Z-14 might be better. But EITHER is fine, Z-12 or Z-14.
>
>Don't mix B&C drawings and 'Connection drawings. Do one or the
>other. There are a variety of small ways our drawings might differ
>but they're insignificant in terms of functionality. Attempting
>to "meld" these differences is not a useful exercise.
>
>Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>For what ever reason I'm having trouble fitting this SD8 alternator into the
>>single battery, dual alternator set. When looking at the Z-12 diagram the
>>installation for the 20A alternator looks simple. Same as 60A alternator.
>>Wire off of +ve terminal on start contector, through shunt, etc.
>>
>>Now looking at the SD8 installation wiring here:
>>
>>http://www.bandcspecialty.com/PM_OV504-500_RevE.pdf
>>
>>The alt does not connect to the +ve side of the starter contactor. Instead
>>there is a single fuse forward of the firewall and 2 breakers in the main
>>bus.
>>
>>Questions:
>>Is the 15 amp fuse in front of the firewall a fuse link? If so what size
>>should I make the link since I'm running the SD8 not the 20A alt.
>>
>>Where do I place the shunt?
>>
>>So I'm assuming the differences here are:
>>The 2A fuse on the bus is the alt field fuse.
>>The 10A fuse on the bus is the power.
>>
>>I'm sure this is easier than I'm making it but for some reason I just can't
>>twist my head around this.
>>Why is the SD8 connection so different than the 20 Amp alt.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net> |
hi all,
i am ready to mount my fuse block and my ground bus in the cabin. i have a navcom
and a transponder for radios. my 2 mounting sites will be 6'' from the navcom
or 6'' from the transponder. is one site better than the other?
also, i am grounding the ground bus in the engine compartment with a strap from
the neg. battery cable at the engine block. the ground bus will go on the firewall.
is it sound practice to then put 2 #8 or #10 brass machine screws thru
this bus, thru the firewall and finally thru the ground bus in the cabin to ground
the cabin ground bus? thanks in advance for any advice.
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator installation |
>
>Hello Bob,
>
>you had once a diagram of the SD8 output on the web I'm not able to
>locate it again.
>
>Many thanks for your help
>
>Werner
The only ones that come to mind are those illustrated in
Appendix Z drawings for the book. Latest drawings are
downloadable at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11D.pdf
See figures Z-13/8, Z-17 and Z-25 for drawings
that illustrate various SD-8 installations.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pellien" <jim(at)pellien.com> |
| Subject: | T'was the Night Before Christmas - Sports Planes Style |
'Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the forum
not an EMAIL was posted, not even a note.
The stockings were hung by the laptop with care,
in hopes that Tom P. soon would be there.
The pilots were nestled all snug in their beds,
while visions of SLSA's danced in their heads.
The aircraft in their hangars, and I in my cap,
had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap.
When out on the tarmac there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my desk to see what was the matter.
Away to the window I flew like a flash,
tore open the shutter, and threw up the sash.
The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
gave the lustre of midday to the tie-downs below,
when, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
but a Light Sport Aircraft and eight big EAA 'rs.
With a little old pilot, so lively and quick,
I knew in a moment it must be Tom P.
More rapid than eagles, his coursers they came,
and he whistled and shouted and called them by name:
"Now Rutan! Now Melville!
Now, Fossett and Boyer!
On, Lawrence! On, Heintz!
On, Van G and Sawyer!
To the end of the runway!
To the tie-down area
Now Shut Down ! Shut Down!
Shut Down All Engines"
As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
when they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky
so up to the top of the FBO they flew,
with the sleigh full of flight toys, and Tom P. too.
And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
the prancing and pawing of each little hoof.
As I drew in my head and was turning around,
down the chimney Tom P. came with a bound.
He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot.
A bundle of new FAA rules he had flung on his back,
and he looked like a peddler just opening his pack.
He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
and filled all the stockings, with SP and LSA Rulings.
And laying his finger aside of his nose,
and giving a nod, up the chimney he rose.
He sprang to his SLSA, completed his preflight,
And away he flew like the down of a thistle.
But I heard him exclaim, 'ere he flew out of sight,
"Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"
(An Adaptation of the Classic Poem, "T'was the Night Before Christmas")
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
The Mid-Atlantic Region of SportsPlanes.com
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator installation |
Hello Bob,
no, it was not an illustration of the installation instead a pdf of the
output, it was in a message of you from June 29th on this list and the
picture was
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/SD-8_Output.pdf
Unfortunately I was not able to locate on your website anymore.
Thanks
Werner
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Hello Bob,
>>
>>you had once a diagram of the SD8 output on the web I'm not able to
>>locate it again.
>>
>>Many thanks for your help
>>
>>Werner
>>
>>
>
> The only ones that come to mind are those illustrated in
> Appendix Z drawings for the book. Latest drawings are
> downloadable at:
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11D.pdf
>
> See figures Z-13/8, Z-17 and Z-25 for drawings
> that illustrate various SD-8 installations.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)AOL.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Crash safety of battery contactor switching philosophy |
In a message dated 21-Dec-05 7:25:17 Pacific Standard Time, nuckollsr(at)cox.net
writes:
You could drive the battery contactor from
the battery bus through a small fuse if you
wish.
Bob,
Just curious how this would work. The hot wire to the energizing side of the
contactor is, I believe, always hot, is it not (otherwise, how would
switching to ground cause a current to flow)?
The wire that is grounded by the panel switch is at 12 volts when the switch
is open, 0 (more or less) when the switch is closed. To me, that implies that
the 1 amp used to maintain the contactor closed is limited to that current by
the resistance in the energizing coil of the contactor.
If the ground wire were shorted out anywhere between the contactor and the
panel switch (which as I understand it was the foundation of the original
inquiry), how would fusing the hot side have any benefit (assuming the hot side
is
fed directly from the battery)? The only benefit I can see would be if the
energizing coil of the contactor was shorted out at the same time that the ground
wire was shorted to ground. Something the could happen, theoretically I
suppose, but not with any significant frequency.
Regards,
Doug Windhorn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com.philosophy |
| Subject: | Re: Crash safety of battery contactor switching |
philosophy
I think he means place the switch in the hot side wiring, not the ground side.
Least, that's what I meant when I suggested it earlier that same day ;-) That
way, a short anywhere in the control wiring to the contactor won't energize
it. It stays permanently grounded, and has switched +12v controlling its operation.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crash safety of battery contactor switching philosophy
In a message dated 21-Dec-05 7:25:17 Pacific Standard Time, nuckollsr(at)cox.net
writes:
You could drive the battery contactor from
the battery bus through a small fuse if you
wish.
Bob,
Just curious how this would work. The hot wire to the energizing side of the
contactor is, I believe, always hot, is it not (otherwise, how would
switching to ground cause a current to flow)?
The wire that is grounded by the panel switch is at 12 volts when the switch
is open, 0 (more or less) when the switch is closed. To me, that implies that
the 1 amp used to maintain the contactor closed is limited to that current by
the resistance in the energizing coil of the contactor.
If the ground wire were shorted out anywhere between the contactor and the
panel switch (which as I understand it was the foundation of the original
inquiry), how would fusing the hot side have any benefit (assuming the hot side
is
fed directly from the battery)? The only benefit I can see would be if the
energizing coil of the contactor was shorted out at the same time that the
ground
wire was shorted to ground. Something the could happen, theoretically I
suppose, but not with any significant frequency.
Regards,
Doug Windhorn
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | T'was the Night Before Christmas - Sports Planes |
Style
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Jim,
You are a poet,
Though some may not know it.
Well done.
Chuck Jensen
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Pellien
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:45 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: T'was the Night Before Christmas - Sports
> Planes Style
>
>
> 'Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the forum
> not an EMAIL was posted, not even a note.
> The stockings were hung by the laptop with care,
> in hopes that Tom P. soon would be there.
>
> The pilots were nestled all snug in their beds,
> while visions of SLSA's danced in their heads.
> The aircraft in their hangars, and I in my cap,
> had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap.
>
> When out on the tarmac there arose such a clatter,
> I sprang from my desk to see what was the matter.
> Away to the window I flew like a flash,
> tore open the shutter, and threw up the sash.
>
> The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
> gave the lustre of midday to the tie-downs below,
> when, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
> but a Light Sport Aircraft and eight big EAA 'rs.
>
> With a little old pilot, so lively and quick,
> I knew in a moment it must be Tom P.
> More rapid than eagles, his coursers they came,
> and he whistled and shouted and called them by name:
>
> "Now Rutan! Now Melville!
> Now, Fossett and Boyer!
> On, Lawrence! On, Heintz!
> On, Van G and Sawyer!
>
> To the end of the runway!
> To the tie-down area
> Now Shut Down ! Shut Down!
> Shut Down All Engines"
>
> As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
> when they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky
> so up to the top of the FBO they flew,
> with the sleigh full of flight toys, and Tom P. too.
>
> And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
> the prancing and pawing of each little hoof.
> As I drew in my head and was turning around,
> down the chimney Tom P. came with a bound.
>
> He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
> and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot.
> A bundle of new FAA rules he had flung on his back,
> and he looked like a peddler just opening his pack.
>
> He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
> and filled all the stockings, with SP and LSA Rulings.
> And laying his finger aside of his nose,
> and giving a nod, up the chimney he rose.
>
> He sprang to his SLSA, completed his preflight,
> And away he flew like the down of a thistle.
> But I heard him exclaim, 'ere he flew out of sight,
> "Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"
>
>
> (An Adaptation of the Classic Poem, "T'was the Night Before
Christmas")
>
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All
>
> Jim Pellien
> Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
> The Mid-Atlantic Region of SportsPlanes.com
> www.MASPL.com
> 703-313-4818
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator installation |
>
>Hello Bob,
>
>no, it was not an illustration of the installation instead a pdf of the
>output, it was in a message of you from June 29th on this list and the
>picture was
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/SD-8_Output.pdf
>
>Unfortunately I was not able to locate on your website anymore.
>
>Thanks
>
>Werner
Aha! Good rattle (of my cage) . . . Folks should
be aware that as time and motivation come together, there will
be some re-organization of aeroelectric.com
The volume of data is becoming too large to retrieve useful
data by simply browsing. One of the first things I did was
to add sub-folders under the Pictures folder where photos
were sorted by content. You can directly access the Pictures
folder by clicking on
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures
Here you will see a simple directory listing with sub-folders
that you can follow down and back up just as if you were looking
at someone's HTML pages.
I'll be working on photo file names to make them for indicative
of what they illustrate.
If you go to the new sub-site-index page at . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Downloads.html
. . . you'll find an index for nine categories of downloadable
data. Pictures are under the Photo and Figure Album listing.
Some of those links will take you to more HTML pages where
it's useful to generate much more supporting info while
others (Page per System Drawings, Radio Pin-out Guides, etc)
are simply links to the top of a directory where one selects
from a list of file names as opposed to accessing a published
page of text and illustrations.
This is a slow process but it makes little quantum jumps from
time to time. Over the next year, I plan to make the site
much easier to use in terms of accessing data relevant
to an interest or query-of-the-moment.
I appreciate you bringing this up. This explanation has
is overdue. The specific page you were looking for is now
under Alternators at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD-8_Output.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan Hooks" <bryanhooks(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | SD8 alternator installation |
You'll find it on the B&C website - it's the red SD-8 icon in the QUICK
FACTS section.
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/
Hope this is what you're looking for.
Bryan Hooks
RV-7A, Knoxville TN
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Werner Schneider
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD8 alternator installation
Hello Bob,
no, it was not an illustration of the installation instead a pdf of the
output, it was in a message of you from June 29th on this list and the
picture was
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/SD-8_Output.pdf
Unfortunately I was not able to locate on your website anymore.
Thanks
Werner
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Hello Bob,
>>
>>you had once a diagram of the SD8 output on the web I'm not able to
>>locate it again.
>>
>>Many thanks for your help
>>
>>Werner
>>
>>
>
> The only ones that come to mind are those illustrated in
> Appendix Z drawings for the book. Latest drawings are
> downloadable at:
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11D.pdf
>
> See figures Z-13/8, Z-17 and Z-25 for drawings
> that illustrate various SD-8 installations.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Crash safety of battery contactor switching philosophy |
>
>In a message dated 21-Dec-05 7:25:17 Pacific Standard Time, nuckollsr(at)cox.net
>writes:
> You could drive the battery contactor from
> the battery bus through a small fuse if you
> wish.
>Bob,
>
>Just curious how this would work. The hot wire to the energizing side of the
>contactor is, I believe, always hot, is it not (otherwise, how would
>switching to ground cause a current to flow)?
You could take a fused feed off the battery bus (small,
1A would probably be sufficient) and run it through a switch to
the (+) side of the contactor coil . . . then ground the (-) side
locally.
>The wire that is grounded by the panel switch is at 12 volts when the switch
>is open, 0 (more or less) when the switch is closed. To me, that implies
>that
>the 1 amp used to maintain the contactor closed is limited to that current by
>the resistance in the energizing coil of the contactor.
>If the ground wire were shorted out anywhere between the contactor and the
>panel switch (which as I understand it was the foundation of the original
>inquiry), how would fusing the hot side have any benefit (assuming the hot
>side is
>fed directly from the battery)? The only benefit I can see would be if the
>energizing coil of the contactor was shorted out at the same time that the
>ground
>wire was shorted to ground. Something the could happen, theoretically I
>suppose, but not with any significant frequency.
Yup, you understand the rationale for having selected the
contemporary configuration and have deduced why that lead
does not warrant a fuse to protect the wire.
Of course the original query was concerned about the control
lead being vulnerable to ground fault during a crash which would
defeat the purpose of opening the battery contactor via the
pilot's panel controls.
I explained that small wires are quite unlikely become compromised
to ground (and in fact are pulled open during crash-crumpling) whereas
fat wires tend to resist crash-crumple forces and are more likely
to suffer ground faulting while their terminal ends stay intact.
Admittedly, it's splitting hairs for the 10th time where the trade
off between techniques illustrates a 1:1000 probability of being
a real crash-safety issue.
Much of what flies today is founded in decades of serious
scientific consideration and logic to develop techniques that have
stood the test of time and the repeatable experiment. We're getting
new additions to the mix of "safety concerns" every year. That's
the FAA's job . . . be concerned and then do things that make one
less concerned. Once the "new thing" is identified, you stack
some mandate for incorporation into an already too big stack of
FARS, 8100 docs, and off-hand opinions. This comes to bear on an
industry that is bound and determined to raise quality of their
products like government attempts to make some societal discomfort
go away . . . make a rule or law against it. We have bookshelves
populated with policy and procedures manuals that are beginning
to rival the Tax Code.
So our attention to regulation, policy and procedure becomes
focused on not raising the ire of our leadership. In the mean
time real quality of both our product and science is becoming
overwhelmed by the desire to avoid punishment . . . not for
having failed to do a good job . . . but for not having
followed the "rules".
You folks are a breath of fresh air. We get to do science
and logical design to achieve practical design goals. I'd
like to believe that Walter Beech, William Piper and Duane
Wallace would all be subscribers to this kind of effort had
it been in existence 60 years ago. I KNOW their engineering
staff would.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Thorne" <rv7a(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Starting Problem |
We have a Bellanca 14-19 with similar starting problems described by another 14-19
owner a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately I never saw a good solution to
his problems.
Here are our symptoms. You have to "bump" the starter to get the engine to turn.
After doing this several times both battery terminals are too hot to touch.
My past automotive experience says this is usually a contact problem at the
terminals but they are clean and tight. The local "experts" think the next effort
is to check the solenoid and starter. It is my belief that if the starter
is engaging the solenoid is OK. I suspect that we may have a bad armature on
the starter but I don't understand the hot battery terminals.
Any ideas from this august group?
Merry Christmas
Jim Thorne
CHD AZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hobbs meter wiring |
><gholland@gemini-resourcing.com>
>
>Bob Hi!
>
>I'm using a device called Power Genie to supply start and stop Voltage to
>Hobbs Meter. About to start my Rotax Engine. OK?
>
>Find it at:
>
>http://www.powergenie.central5.com/
>
>Regards
Without having access to the inner-secrets of how
this thing works, I cannot offer a lucid evaluation.
I am wary of things that get in series with the high
current leads . . . there are some slick ways to
detect current flow to control other systems . . . such
as your Hobbs meter . . . there are also come clumsy
ways that would put the alternator output at risk.
Sorry to take so long to get back on this. Trying to
do some end of the month catch up. Let us know how
this product works for you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bench and ground power supply |
>
>
>What is the down side to using one of these for a battery charger?
>
>Indiana Larry
GENERALLY . . . no problem. I've had rare occasions where
some power supplies fitted with OV protection will trigger
the crowbar OV if the power fails and the power supply
is still connected to the battery. Toasted one of my prized
HP bench supplies doing this. I STILL use the power supply
to charge batteries but through an inline fuse so that
if the line power glitches, it doesn't kill my power supply.
I doubt that the supply cited below offers any such concerns.
Bob . . .
>----- Original Message -----
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bench and ground power supply
>
>
> >
> >
> > Just ran across this item on the 'net.
> >
> > http://www.web-tronics.com/25ampswitpow.html
> >
> >
> > This supply is adjustable to 9-15 volts meaning that
> > you can set it to emulate an alternator at 14.2 volts.
> > Better yet, it's metered.
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
>
>We have a Bellanca 14-19 with similar starting problems described by
>another 14-19 owner a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately I never saw a
>good solution to his problems.
>
>Here are our symptoms. You have to "bump" the starter to get the engine
>to turn. After doing this several times both battery terminals are too hot
>to touch. My past automotive experience says this is usually a contact
>problem at the terminals but they are clean and tight. The local
>"experts" think the next effort is to check the solenoid and starter. It
>is my belief that if the starter is engaging the solenoid is OK. I
>suspect that we may have a bad armature on the starter but I don't
>understand the hot battery terminals.
>
>Any ideas from this august group?
I think I recall asking the original poster to get some voltage
measurements so that we might more accurately deduce where his
losses were coming from. In your case, there's a demonstrated
loading condition. A snap-on starter current meter (Figure 7-8
in the 'Connection) available from automotive parts suppliers
would let you see what current the starter is drawing.
The degraded performance combined with hot terminals is
a very strong support of your hypothesis. The starter's
armature windings or commutator are compromised. Get
a real measurement of starter current first. If this
looks normal (under 200A) then get volage measurements
while cranking:
(1) battery terminals (+) to (-)
(2) +side drops from battery (+) to starter (+)
(3) -side drops from battery (-) to starter case
(4) starter supply from starter(+) to starter case.
Bob . . .
>Merry Christmas
>
>Jim Thorne
>CHD AZ
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Thorne" <rv7a(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
Bob, Thanks we will try that by noon our time.
Jim Thorne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starting Problem
>
>
>
>>
>>We have a Bellanca 14-19 with similar starting problems described by
>>another 14-19 owner a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately I never saw a
>>good solution to his problems.
>>
>>Here are our symptoms. You have to "bump" the starter to get the engine
>>to turn. After doing this several times both battery terminals are too hot
>>to touch. My past automotive experience says this is usually a contact
>>problem at the terminals but they are clean and tight. The local
>>"experts" think the next effort is to check the solenoid and starter. It
>>is my belief that if the starter is engaging the solenoid is OK. I
>>suspect that we may have a bad armature on the starter but I don't
>>understand the hot battery terminals.
>>
>>Any ideas from this august group?
>
> I think I recall asking the original poster to get some voltage
> measurements so that we might more accurately deduce where his
> losses were coming from. In your case, there's a demonstrated
> loading condition. A snap-on starter current meter (Figure 7-8
> in the 'Connection) available from automotive parts suppliers
> would let you see what current the starter is drawing.
>
> The degraded performance combined with hot terminals is
> a very strong support of your hypothesis. The starter's
> armature windings or commutator are compromised. Get
> a real measurement of starter current first. If this
> looks normal (under 200A) then get volage measurements
> while cranking:
>
> (1) battery terminals (+) to (-)
> (2) +side drops from battery (+) to starter (+)
> (3) -side drops from battery (-) to starter case
> (4) starter supply from starter(+) to starter case.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>>Merry Christmas
>>
>>Jim Thorne
>>CHD AZ
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>
>>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
> < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
> < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
> < work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
> < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
> < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
> < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
> < happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
> < then slip back into abject poverty. >
> < >
> < This is known as "bad luck". >
> < -Lazarus Long- >
> <------------------------------------------------------>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator output |
Hello Bob,
many thanks for the explanation! Now I have just to find out what
gearing we have from the engine to the alternator =(;o)) to have a
engine output conversion, A pilot on my airfield wants to mount this
alternator as one and only on an engine with tho Lightspeed ignitions
and a 21A battery. The question is here, when does the alternator
recharge the bat. I was not yet able to make a load analysis.
br and Merry Xmas
Werner
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD-8_Output.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan Hooks" <bryanhooks(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | SD8 alternator output |
The quick facts at B&C also show the engine to alternator speed ration.
I believe for a Lyc it was 1.2 but please check that.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Werner Schneider
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD8 alternator output
Hello Bob,
many thanks for the explanation! Now I have just to find out what
gearing we have from the engine to the alternator =(;o)) to have a
engine output conversion, A pilot on my airfield wants to mount this
alternator as one and only on an engine with tho Lightspeed ignitions
and a 21A battery. The question is here, when does the alternator
recharge the bat. I was not yet able to make a load analysis.
br and Merry Xmas
Werner
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD-8_Output.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan Hooks" <bryanhooks(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | SD8 alternator output |
Oops - my apologies - I gave you bad information. From the B&C website,
here are the gearing ratios for engine pad rpm / engine rpm.
Lyc / vaccum pad / 1.3
Lyc / hydraulic pad / 1.3
Cont O200 / vaccum pad / 1.5
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/QuickFacts_SD8.pdf
-bryan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Werner Schneider
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD8 alternator output
Hello Bob,
many thanks for the explanation! Now I have just to find out what
gearing we have from the engine to the alternator =(;o)) to have a
engine output conversion, A pilot on my airfield wants to mount this
alternator as one and only on an engine with tho Lightspeed ignitions
and a 21A battery. The question is here, when does the alternator
recharge the bat. I was not yet able to make a load analysis.
br and Merry Xmas
Werner
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD-8_Output.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator output |
Yup. At 2400 rpm cruise, it's more like an "SD-6" than an "SD-8" perhaps with
more amps available at sagging voltages. Something to keep in mind when planning
the ol' endurance bus amps budget.
That said, I'm about ready to order mine, and very glad they're available.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Hooks <bryanhooks(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD8 alternator output
Oops - my apologies - I gave you bad information. From the B&C website,
here are the gearing ratios for engine pad rpm / engine rpm.
Lyc / vaccum pad / 1.3
Lyc / hydraulic pad / 1.3
Cont O200 / vaccum pad / 1.5
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/QuickFacts_SD8.pdf
-bryan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Werner Schneider
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD8 alternator output
Hello Bob,
many thanks for the explanation! Now I have just to find out what
gearing we have from the engine to the alternator =(;o)) to have a
engine output conversion, A pilot on my airfield wants to mount this
alternator as one and only on an engine with tho Lightspeed ignitions
and a 21A battery. The question is here, when does the alternator
recharge the bat. I was not yet able to make a load analysis.
br and Merry Xmas
Werner
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD-8_Output.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
....
>Here are our symptoms. You have to "bump" the starter to get the engine to
>turn.
>After doing this several times both battery terminals are too hot to touch.
>My past automotive experience says this is usually a contact problem at the
>terminals but they are clean and tight. The local "experts" think the next
>effort
>is to check the solenoid and starter. It is my belief that if the starter
>is engaging the solenoid is OK. I suspect that we may have a bad armature
>on
>the starter but I don't understand the hot battery terminals.
>Any ideas from this august group?.......
I have seen battery terminals where there was some conversion of the joint
metal into a non-conducting layer. The joint was dry and tight, but the
metal needed a reaming to renew the surface. It is good practice to grease
the fittings to prevent this from happening.
Just a guess.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"...Beans for supper tonight, six o'clock.
Navy beans cooked in Oklahoma ham...
Got to eat 'em with a spoon, raw onions
and cornbread; nothing else...."
--Will Rogers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator output |
>
>Yup. At 2400 rpm cruise, it's more like an "SD-6" than an "SD-8" perhaps
>with more amps available at sagging voltages. Something to keep in mind
>when planning the ol' endurance bus amps budget.
>
>That said, I'm about ready to order mine, and very glad they're available.
>
>-Stormy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bryan Hooks <bryanhooks(at)comcast.net>
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD8 alternator output
>
>
>
>
>Oops - my apologies - I gave you bad information. From the B&C website,
>here are the gearing ratios for engine pad rpm / engine rpm.
>
>Lyc / vaccum pad / 1.3
>Lyc / hydraulic pad / 1.3
>Cont O200 / vaccum pad / 1.5
>
>http://www.bandcspecialty.com/QuickFacts_SD8.pdf
>
>-bryan
Bryan,
Your post reminded me of an update figure I'd been working
on for the SD-8 some years ago I think. I've finished it
and posted it in the more logical folder on my website. I combined
some data we'd gathered for current levels loading the SD-8
to both 13.8 and 12.5 volts. I also plotted the engine
rpm ordinates assuming 1:1.3 for Lycoming pads and 1:1.5
for Continental pads. The new drawing is a fair representation
of all the data needed for integrating the SD-8 into a
system. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performance.pdf
Thanks for the cage-rattle.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator output |
On 24 Dec 2005, at 03:09, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> Your post reminded me of an update figure I'd been working
> on for the SD-8 some years ago I think. I've finished it
> and posted it in the more logical folder on my website. I combined
> some data we'd gathered for current levels loading the SD-8
> to both 13.8 and 12.5 volts. I also plotted the engine
> rpm ordinates assuming 1:1.3 for Lycoming pads and 1:1.5
> for Continental pads. The new drawing is a fair representation
> of all the data needed for integrating the SD-8 into a
> system. See:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-
> Performance.pdf
>
Something looks screwy in the upper axis showing Lycoming and
Contentinal rpm. The relationship between the engine rpm on the
upper axes and the alternator rpm on the lower axis does not follow
the 1:1.3 and 1:1.5 relationship you described. E.g:
2K Lycoming is at 2600 SD-8, a ratio of 1.3
2700 Lycoming is at 3300 SD-8, a ratio of 1.22
2K Continental is at 3K SD-8, a ratio of 1.5
2700 Continental is at 3700 SD-8, a ratio of 1.37
The upper axes need to be stretched. Or, have three plots, one for
output vs SD-8 rpm, plus specific plots for Lycoming and Continental
engines. Someone designing a new installation needs to know the
output vs SD-8 rpm. But the average user only needs to know the
output vs engine rpm for his installation.
Thanks for making this data available.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
First of all I must say I'm not an EE and as you're going to confirm, I'm
far away from being a DC expert. The only good thing I'm near is that I'm
humble enough to admit my ignorance and I like to learn ..:-).
Well, for the experts, my problem certainly is a simple task.
I am wiring my EFIS and need to figure out a switch to control power to both
devices, the Display Unit and the AHRS. Both have D-Sub connectors that
allow 3 alternative power sources, from wich I intend to use 2.
So, I want to connect power from 2 diferent buses to the 2 separate units,
and do it through a 3 positon switch (On-Off-On).
For better understanding of my "problem", what I want is a switch that has 1
OFF position (no power for both EFIS units), 1 ON position (power from one
source bus is feeding both units) and other ON position (power from 2nd
source bus is feeding both units).
Which kind of switch do I need, and how is wiring done?
Thanks in advance
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator output |
Now, THAT'S some helpful data. Thanks, Bob, for researching and making that available.
I was missing that piece as I tried to plan things out. Appreciate
it much-ly!
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD8 alternator output
>
>Yup. At 2400 rpm cruise, it's more like an "SD-6" than an "SD-8" perhaps
>with more amps available at sagging voltages. Something to keep in mind
>when planning the ol' endurance bus amps budget.
>
>That said, I'm about ready to order mine, and very glad they're available.
>
>-Stormy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bryan Hooks <bryanhooks(at)comcast.net>
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD8 alternator output
>
>
>
>
>Oops - my apologies - I gave you bad information. From the B&C website,
>here are the gearing ratios for engine pad rpm / engine rpm.
>
>Lyc / vaccum pad / 1.3
>Lyc / hydraulic pad / 1.3
>Cont O200 / vaccum pad / 1.5
>
>http://www.bandcspecialty.com/QuickFacts_SD8.pdf
>
>-bryan
Bryan,
Your post reminded me of an update figure I'd been working
on for the SD-8 some years ago I think. I've finished it
and posted it in the more logical folder on my website. I combined
some data we'd gathered for current levels loading the SD-8
to both 13.8 and 12.5 volts. I also plotted the engine
rpm ordinates assuming 1:1.3 for Lycoming pads and 1:1.5
for Continental pads. The new drawing is a fair representation
of all the data needed for integrating the SD-8 into a
system. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performance.pdf
Thanks for the cage-rattle.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
| From: | Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com> |
Carlos,
I might be able to help if you can produce a mental picture.
Ready ? Go: In the upper left of the picture put unit #1.
In the upper right of the picture put unit #2.
In the lower left of the picture put buss wire
writes:
>
>
> First of all I must say I'm not an EE and as you're going to
> confirm, I'm
> far away from being a DC expert. The only good thing I'm near is
> that I'm
> humble enough to admit my ignorance and I like to learn ..:-).
> Well, for the experts, my problem certainly is a simple task.
>
> I am wiring my EFIS and need to figure out a switch to control power
> to both
> devices, the Display Unit and the AHRS. Both have D-Sub connectors
> that
> allow 3 alternative power sources, from wich I intend to use 2.
> So, I want to connect power from 2 diferent buses to the 2 separate
> units,
> and do it through a 3 positon switch (On-Off-On).
> For better understanding of my "problem", what I want is a switch
> that has 1
> OFF position (no power for both EFIS units), 1 ON position (power
> from one
> source bus is feeding both units) and other ON position (power from
> 2nd
> source bus is feeding both units).
>
> Which kind of switch do I need, and how is wiring done?
>
> Thanks in advance
> Carlos
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
| From: | Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com> |
Carlos.
I might be able to help if you can conjure up a mental picture.
Try this:
Put unit #1 in the upper left of the picture.
Put unit #2 in the upper right of the picture.
Put buss wire #1 in the lower left of the picture.
Put buss wire #2 inthe lower right of the picture.
Now put a double pole double throw center off switch
in the center of the picture.
Put it in the picture with the bat handle down and away from you.
You will now see six terminals. lets number them.
Upper left (1) upper right (2) center left (3) center right (4)
lower left (5) lower right (6).
And here we go.
Put buss wire #1 onto terminal #3.
Put buss wire #2 onto terminal #4.
Put the unit #1 feed wire onto terminal #1.
Then put a jumper wire from terminal #1 to terminal #6.
Put the unit #2 feedwire onto terminal #6 also.
That's it. done. HTH
Larry Mac Donald
lm4(at)juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
Do not achcive
> First of all I must say I'm not an EE and as you're going to
> confirm, I'm
> I am wiring my EFIS and need to figure out a switch to control power
> to both
> devices, the Display Unit and the AHRS. Both have D-Sub connectors
> that
> allow 3 alternative power sources, from wich I intend to use 2.
> So, I want to connect power from 2 diferent buses to the 2 separate
> units,
> and do it through a 3 positon switch (On-Off-On).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD8 alternator output |
>
>
>Something looks screwy in the upper axis showing Lycoming and
>Contentinal rpm. The relationship between the engine rpm on the
>upper axes and the alternator rpm on the lower axis does not follow
>the 1:1.3 and 1:1.5 relationship you described. E.g:
>
>2K Lycoming is at 2600 SD-8, a ratio of 1.3
>2700 Lycoming is at 3300 SD-8, a ratio of 1.22
>
>2K Continental is at 3K SD-8, a ratio of 1.5
>2700 Continental is at 3700 SD-8, a ratio of 1.37
>
>The upper axes need to be stretched. Or, have three plots, one for
>output vs SD-8 rpm, plus specific plots for Lycoming and Continental
>engines. Someone designing a new installation needs to know the
>output vs SD-8 rpm. But the average user only needs to know the
>output vs engine rpm for his installation.
>
>Thanks for making this data available.
Good catch! I blocked the tick marks on the lower
edge of the graph so that they could be scaled at
paste-time . . . then didn't exercise the option.
The drawing has been updated at . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performance.pdf
to fix the problem you cited along with a few other
details.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joelrhaynes(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | switching off an IR alternator |
Folks,
I've been reading with interest all of the bandwidth on IR alternators and
the topics of OV protection and switching off an IR alternator under load.
The list consensus seems to be that switching off an IR alternator while under
load is a bad thing. Thus, I was surprised when I read the documentation
that came with my new CAM 040AD IR alternator that came attached to my new Aero
Sport Power 0-360. This is a non-certified alternator package designed for
experimental aircraft produced by Canadian Aero Manufacturing of Orilla,
Ontario. The alternator is no doubt of Japanese origin since the output graph
that came with the documentation is in Japanese. Note the following quote from
the product documentation.
"Conditions in which a very high draw is being made of the alternator at low
RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and drive belt. Consider
reducing the total load in these situations, or switching the alternator off and
drawing from the battery only, if the high load will be brief."
Thus, I gather that not all IR alternators are created equal and that
switching off this alternator is considered a normal activity.
Joel Haynes
RV-7A (hanging the engine)
Bozeman, MT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
In a message dated 12/24/2005 9:28:07 A.M. Central Standard Time,
lm4(at)juno.com writes:
Carlos.
I might be able to help if you can conjure up a mental picture.
Try this:
Put unit #1 in the upper left of the picture.
Put unit #2 in the upper right of the picture.
Put buss wire #1 in the lower left of the picture.
Put buss wire #2 inthe lower right of the picture.
Now put a double pole double throw center off switch
in the center of the picture.
Put it in the picture with the bat handle down and away from you.
You will now see six terminals. lets number them.
Upper left (1) upper right (2) center left (3) center right (4)
lower left (5) lower right (6).
And here we go.
Put buss wire #1 onto terminal #3.
Put buss wire #2 onto terminal #4.
Put the unit #1 feed wire onto terminal #1.
Then put a jumper wire from terminal #1 to terminal #6.
Put the unit #2 feedwire onto terminal #6 also.
That's it. done. HTH
Larry Mac Donald
Good Morning Larry,
Why would that setup be any better than just using a single pole, double
throw, center off, switch with both units connected to the common center contact
and each power source connected to one of the switched contacts?
As I see your solution, it connects both units together at all times and
allows either power source to supply both units or be switched to off. Wouldn't
the spdt ctr off switch do just as well?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: switching off an IR alternator |
Hi Joel
This has been discussed recently.
FWIW some of us don't really believe the following makes much sense
>Conditions in which a very high draw is being made of the alternator at low
>RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and drive belt.
>
And therefore suspect that the folowing makes even less sense.
> Consider
>reducing the total load in these situations, or switching the alternator off and
>drawing from the battery only, if the high load will be brief."
>
While this is probably true
>Thus, I gather that not all IR alternators are created equal
>
I still don't believe the following is a good idea
> and that
>switching off this alternator is considered a normal activity.
>
>
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
| From: | Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com> |
Bob,
Nice to hear from you. You can put a buss wire on the center pole of the
on-off-on switch and that will run either unit. But it was my
understanding that Carlos wanted to run one unit off one buss and both
units off the other buss. Maybe I got that screwed up !
Larry Mac Donald
lm4(at)juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
Do not achcive
> In a message dated 12/24/2005 9:28:07 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> lm4(at)juno.com writes:
>
> Carlos.
> I might be able to help if you can conjure up a mental picture.
> Try this:
> Put unit #1 in the upper left of the picture.
> Put unit #2 in the upper right of the picture.
> Put buss wire #1 in the lower left of the picture.
> Put buss wire #2 inthe lower right of the picture.
> Now put a double pole double throw center off switch
> in the center of the picture.
> Put it in the picture with the bat handle down and away from you.
> You will now see six terminals. lets number them.
> Upper left (1) upper right (2) center left (3) center right (4)
> lower left (5) lower right (6).
> And here we go.
> Put buss wire #1 onto terminal #3.
> Put buss wire #2 onto terminal #4.
> Put the unit #1 feed wire onto terminal #1.
> Then put a jumper wire from terminal #1 to terminal #6.
> Put the unit #2 feedwire onto terminal #6 also.
> That's it. done. HTH
> Larry Mac Donald
> Good Morning Larry,
> Why would that setup be any better than just using a single pole,
> double
> throw, center off, switch with both units connected to the common
> center contact
> and each power source connected to one of the switched contacts?
> As I see your solution, it connects both units together at all times
> and
> allows either power source to supply both units or be switched to
> off. Wouldn't
> the spdt ctr off switch do just as well?
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
In a message dated 12/24/2005 7:38:55 P.M. Central Standard Time,
lm4(at)juno.com writes:
Bob,
Nice to hear from you. You can put a buss wire on the center pole of the
on-off-on switch and that will run either unit. But it was my
understanding that Carlos wanted to run one unit off one buss and both
units off the other buss. Maybe I got that screwed up !
Larry Mac Donald
lm4(at)juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
You are probably correct, I didn't read the original question.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: switching off an IR alternator |
>
>Folks,
>I've been reading with interest all of the bandwidth on IR alternators and
>the topics of OV protection and switching off an IR alternator under load.
>The list consensus seems to be that switching off an IR alternator while
>under
>load is a bad thing.
If there is "consensus" it is without data and to date, no
repeatable experiments have been performed to either support
or deny the premise . . .
> Thus, I was surprised when I read the documentation
>that came with my new CAM 040AD IR alternator that came attached to my
>new Aero
>Sport Power 0-360. This is a non-certified alternator package designed for
>experimental aircraft produced by Canadian Aero Manufacturing of Orilla,
>Ontario. The alternator is no doubt of Japanese origin since the output
>graph
>that came with the documentation is in Japanese. Note the following
>quote from
>the product documentation.
>
>"Conditions in which a very high draw is being made of the alternator at low
>RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and drive belt.
This paragraph has been seen in the wild under various colors . . .
The torque that an alternator reacts to the source of rotating
energy driving it is absolutely limited by the magnetics
that tie rotating armature and motionless stator windings. This
coupling is incapable of being excited in any way that produces
more than 20% of "extra strain" on the drive system. The
extra tension in a belt due to alternator loads on a 60A machine
is something on the order of 7-10 pounds (real numbers coming
shortly). Compare this with static tension in a belt on the order
of 50 pounds. So, total operating belt loads modulated by
alternator output is on the order of 50-60 pounds on the tension
side. During an OV event on with a cold alternator, that load might
go up to 62 pounds. I'm mystified as to why writers of the cautionary
paragraph are calling this event "extra strain" worthy of operator
caution.
> Consider
>reducing the total load in these situations, or switching the alternator
>off and
>drawing from the battery only, if the high load will be brief."
Could you give me the names, addresses, phone numbers, etc that might
appear on the document you're citing? I'd be pleased if the
worriers could articulate their concerns with real numbers and
the simple-ideas in physics that support them.
>Thus, I gather that not all IR alternators are created equal . . .
Not all ER alternators are created equal. Every product
out there has some features that make it stand out from
other similar products.
>. . . and that
>switching off this alternator is considered a normal activity.
Depends on your design goals. If you'd like to have your alternator
be as controllable as generators and alternators on ALL certified
aircraft since day-one, then being able to turn the alternator ON
an OFF at will without regard to current conditions is the goal.
We've been able to do this on hundreds of thousands of airplanes
over a very long time.
If you're willing to forego that feature . . . it's entirely
up to you. There are schools of thought that suggest this
feature is outmoded and can be dispensed with. We got some
more work done on the drive stand that will enable us to
do the work necessary to expand on the work in progress at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/alternators/UA/Alternators_1.html
I've got the next four pages about done . . . might be able to
post them over the holiday shutdown. One of the pages speaks
directly to the issue of "extra strain" on belts which goes
directly to "extra strain" on alternators as well. Its my
assertion that the caution you've cited has no foundation
in physics but I'd be delighted to have a capable teacher
show me the error.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Terminals for M22520/5-100 die |
>
>I recently bought a Daniels HX-4 crimping tool with an M22520/5-100
>(Daniels Y501) die for pre-insulated terminals in AWG 10-26 range.
>Anyone know which brands of terminals work well with this die?
Found the die listed on p.31 of
http://www.astrotool.com/pdf/Astro.pdf
but nothing in this document that explains
Die set used with 620175 crimp tool frame to crimp size 22 thru 10
insulated terminals and splices conforming to MS17143, MS25036, MIL-T-7928,
MS25274, and
MS27429. The 630045 die set is an improved version (not mil-spec) which
provides a tighter crimp on smaller wires.
Sorry to take so long on this. Had to go look some things
up. The AMP PIDG terminals are in the MS25036 family
of military qualified devices. Therefore, the tool
you're asking about should do nicely with these highly
recommended terminals (along with other equivalent brands
like Molex "Avicrimp")
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DonVS" <dsvs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | More SD8 Installation Questions |
Bob,
First, Merry Christmas
I am using Z13-8 and have a few questions. B&C says put the regulator and
Capacitor on the cold side of the firewall. To keep high current wires out
of the cab I would like to mount the regulator, capacitor, S703-1 relay, and
OVM-14 on the hot side of the firewall. Are these items robust (heat and
vibration wise) to live a long life on the hot side? If not can any of these
that make sense be put on the hot side? Thanks for your advise. Don VS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Manual Battery switches |
Have any builders opted to use manual battery switches? If so, do they work
well? Any problem with the "keys?" Is there a way to paint the red plastic
keys?
I'm thinking about having a key machined out of aluminum if the plastic key
cannot be painted.
Stan Sutterfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Glasgow" <willfly(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More SD8 Installation Questions |
Hi Don,
I mounted the SD-8 regulator, capacitor, S703-1 relay, and OVM-14 on the hot side
of the firewall above the battery in the upper left corner looking aft on
my RV*. No problem for over 2 years and 265 hours. Granted this is a pretty
cool area.
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
N123SG RV-8
Cappy's Toy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
Bob and Larry
Thanks for your help.
What I want is to run both units from one buss and alternatively both units
from the other buss. And also have an Off position (both units Off).
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it
>
>
> In a message dated 12/24/2005 7:38:55 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> lm4(at)juno.com writes:
>
> Bob,
> Nice to hear from you. You can put a buss wire on the center pole of the
> on-off-on switch and that will run either unit. But it was my
> understanding that Carlos wanted to run one unit off one buss and both
> units off the other buss. Maybe I got that screwed up !
> Larry Mac Donald
> lm4(at)juno.com
> Rochester N.Y.
>
>
> You are probably correct, I didn't read the original question.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
In a message dated 12/25/2005 7:48:57 A.M. Central Standard Time,
trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt writes:
Bob and Larry
Thanks for your help.
What I want is to run both units from one buss and alternatively both units
from the other buss. And also have an Off position (both units Off).
Carlos
Good Morning And Merry Christmas Carlos,
From the above comment, I assume you have no objection to both units being
connected to each other.
That equates to having only one point that needs power.
If that point is connected to the center contact of a single pole, double
throw, center off switch, one source of power may be connected to each of the
other contacts to provide exactly what you need.
Switch up will power both units from one source, switch down will power both
units from the other source and the center position will provide off for
both units.
Will that satisfy your requirements?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
| From: | Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com> |
Carlos,
Bob caught me in a brain dead condition. In order to do
it my way you would have to put a diode into that term
1 to term 6 jumper. I'd forgotten that part of such a circuit.
But forget it because you've just changed the conditions
you want. To do it the way you want to do it now, that is the
way I understand it. You want to: Put buss #1 onto term. #3
and buss #2 onto term. #4. Then unit #1 feed to term. #1
jumpered to term. #5. Then unit #2 feed to term. #2 jumpered
to term. #6. In this condition both units will operate with the
bat handle up or down but from different busses. Center
position will isolate both busses.
Larry
>
> Bob and Larry
Thanks for your help.
> What I want is to run both units from one buss and alternatively
> both units
> from the other buss. And also have an Off position (both units Off).
Carlos
> From: <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Choosing a switch and learn how to
> wire it
AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
> > In a message dated 12/24/2005 7:38:55 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> > lm4(at)juno.com writes:
> > Bob,
> > Nice to hear from you. You can put a buss wire on the center pole
> of the on-off-on switch and that will run either unit. But it was my
> > understanding that Carlos wanted to run one unit off one buss and
> both units off the other buss. Maybe I got that screwed up !
> > Larry Mac Donald
> > lm4(at)juno.com
> > Rochester N.Y.
> > You are probably correct, I didn't read the original question.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery switches |
>
>Have any builders opted to use manual battery switches? If so, do they work
>well? Any problem with the "keys?" Is there a way to paint the red plastic
>keys?
>I'm thinking about having a key machined out of aluminum if the plastic key
>cannot be painted.
>Stan Sutterfield
????Why???? . . . manual battery switches are perfectly
fine replacements for contactors. Many of the first
electrically fitted airplanes used them along with
manual starter switches.
But a manual battery switch needs to be as close to
the battery as your contactor would have been. Unless
your battery is handy to the pilot's seat, the battery
switch is not going to be handy either. I've known
several builders over the years who have crafted
Bowden controls to remotely operate a manual battery
switch. In this case, the 'key' was replaced with
a belcrank that translated the push-pull action of
a Bowden control into a rotary motion required by
the battery switch.
Can you describe your proposed installation in more
detail?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More SD8 Installation Questions |
>
>
>Bob,
>First, Merry Christmas
>I am using Z13-8 and have a few questions. B&C says put the regulator and
>Capacitor on the cold side of the firewall. To keep high current wires out
>of the cab I would like to mount the regulator, capacitor, S703-1 relay, and
>OVM-14 on the hot side of the firewall. Are these items robust (heat and
>vibration wise) to live a long life on the hot side? If not can any of these
>that make sense be put on the hot side? Thanks for your advise. Don VS
Generally, yes. In particular, there are places on the firewall
that don't get all that hot . . . although we're still
contemplating the experiment that will put real numbers to
"not all that hot" . . .
The regulator is your major concern. Fully loaded, this puppy
generates a lot of heat and the last time I saw the design,
was marginally acceptable for dumping heat to the case.
It's more important that the regulator get mounted on some
heat sink . . . metal thick enough to carry heat away. Of
course, if the ambient temperatures are lower, this helps too.
But if the regulator is mounted on the back side of the firewall
sheet, the ability to cool is only slightly better than being
on the front side when the same sheet of metal is expected to
be the heatsink.
The safe, conservative thing to do is mount it inside. Lots
of folks have mounted them outside and have not reported
unsatisfactory service life . . . but this is purely anecdotal
along with any opinions offered one way or the other. If you WANT
to put it outside, then give it a try. Let us know what you
discover.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Carlos et al.
A picture is worth 10,000 words. I can barely comprehend a description in
words of a discussion that would be best in pictures--Although I am
considering a complete text description of a Z-diagram for Bob N. to review
for April Fool's day.
Perhaps the real problem is how to get this discussion into images, diagrams
and sketches.
A Very Merry Christmas to All,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.
---Leonard Cohen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More SD8 Installation Questions |
On 25 Dec 2005, at 10:56, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Bob,
>> First, Merry Christmas
>> I am using Z13-8 and have a few questions. B&C says put the
>> regulator and
>> Capacitor on the cold side of the firewall. To keep high current
>> wires out
>> of the cab I would like to mount the regulator, capacitor, S703-1
>> relay, and
>> OVM-14 on the hot side of the firewall. Are these items robust
>> (heat and
>> vibration wise) to live a long life on the hot side? If not can
>> any of these
>> that make sense be put on the hot side? Thanks for your advise.
>> Don VS
>
> The safe, conservative thing to do is mount it inside. Lots
> of folks have mounted them outside and have not reported
> unsatisfactory service life . . . but this is purely anecdotal
> along with any opinions offered one way or the other. If you WANT
> to put it outside, then give it a try. Let us know what you
> discover.
But, most people install the SD-8 to have as a backup in case the
main alternator fails. Main alternators don't fail that often, so I
bet most installed SD-8s have never been used for very long. The
apparently good service history might not mean that much.
No matter where you install it, if you are counting on it to power
your electrical system with a certain electrical load, for a given
duration, you should demonstrate this capability by actual test. If
you haven't demonstrated the capability, including electrical load,
duration and ambient temperature, you have no way of knowing whether
the SD-8 (and regulator) will be able to do the job when needed. A
short test is not sufficient, as it might not get the regulator up to
its stabilized temperature.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: switching off an IR alternator |
I have the exact same alternator and familiar with the
instructions
you quote.
>*..at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and
>drive belt.*
Way too much has been made of the words *extra strain*. Just replace the
word *strain* with effort or force. The intent is only to be aware that at
idle you may not have rated output and load MAY need to be moderated.
The belt clearly needs to transmit greater torque with high (electrical)
demand at low RPM's.
Is it critical? No, I can't imagine it's critical to the belt, but it makes a point.
P=power (watts)
rpm = revs per min
You can see if P(watts) goes up or RPM goes down, T or torque goes
up. The higher torque the more the belt strains, albeit not critical.
Belts on cars experience wildly varying RPM's all the time; these belts run
accessories like A/C compressors and power steering pumps; I think
they may have it worse than our alternator belt runing at one RPM.
Take it for what it is. Spin alternator faster if you want to use it's rated
power or watch your total load or *strain*, by sizing the alternator
properly or reducing load at low RPM's.
>*Consider reducing the total load in these situations, or switching
>the alternator off*
Given the choice I would lower the load on the alternator.
Notice the word CONSIDER. It does not say do it. I personally would not
do it. An occasional non-continuous high load at low RPM is not critical.
Allowed too long the alternator may heat the alternator up and it may shut
down (automatically). The nice part of the internal regulator is if the
alternator runs hot it will shut itself down. Having the regulator actually
on the alternator allows it monitor temp and protect it. However you don't
want to intentionally run your alternator HOT or *strain* it.
However I have SIZED my alternator to provide the proper
available power for the load, even at idle. The only chance I
would need to load shed, is at idle, night with a long delay.
For me my pulley ratio is 3 to 1, some may have a 3.9 to 1 ratio.
Fast idle (say 1000 rpm) my alternator is only at 3000 rpm, which equates
to about 30 amps. If I need 30 amps I could increase the RPM to about
1670 RPM to get rated output (43amps) or just lower load. Since my
typical realistic night taxi load is around 21 amps I am OK, but I don't
have heated pitot or seats. Everything on would be at 31 amps, so I do
have to watch it to some degree.
>*Thus, I gather that not all IR alternators are created equal and
>that switching off this alternator is considered a normal activity.*
As far as regulators being different that is true, but you have a
genuine ND all made in Japan alternator and the regulator is part
number: 126000-1160 and has the following specs (equiv
aftermarket):
http://195.125.241.148/catalog/spec_d/IN254.gif
or
http://www.vicic.com.tw/alternators/a8062902.jpg
Notice the above specs for fun and giggles. The IR function's
as you can see is not just voltage control only.
Bottom line:
Never have a routine reason to switch alternator off under load
IGN wire can't be relied on for emergency isolation, so.
CB on the B-lead to isolate alternator for non-normal conditions
Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and Happy Holiday's
G
>From: Joelrhaynes(at)aol.com
>Subject: switching off an IR alternator
>I was surprised when I read the documentation that came with
>my new CAM 040AD IR alternator that came attached to my
>new Aero. came with the documentation is in
>Japanese. Note the following quote from the product
>documentation.
>"Conditions in which a very high draw is being made of the
>alternator at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator
>and drive belt. Consider reducing the total load in these
>situations, or switching the alternator off and drawing from the
>battery only, if the high load will be brief."
>Thus, I gather that not all IR alternators are created equal and
>that switching off this alternator is considered a normal activity.
>Joel Haynes
>RV-7A (hanging the engine)
>Bozeman, MT
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
Bob ...
Assuming front and rear batt are equally charged. For an IO-360 engine
start I want to tie both batts together for max start energy. Front batt
CABLE to starter is #4 for approx 6 feet. Rear batt WIRE will be 8 feet and
will tie to the #4 Cable for start. Rear batt is 26AH, front is 20AH.
What is the WIRE size needed to enable the rear batt to boost the front batt
and not over heat the WIRE? Easy answer is to use CABLE from the rear batt
but I'm betting there is another answer. I want to avoid using CABLE from
rear batt.
Thanks for your patient teachings and great answers...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Jeff Smith ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Jeff Smith
Lists: AeroElectric-List
Subject: Requesting Peer Review of Electrical Architecture
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/SMITHBKN@aol.com.12.25.2005/index.html
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: switching off an IR alternator |
>
>I have the exact same alternator and familiar with the instructions
>you quote.
>
> >*..at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and
> >drive belt.*
>
> >Way too much has been made of the words *extra strain*. Just replace the
> >word *strain* with effort or force. The intent is only to be aware that at
> >idle you may not have rated output and load MAY need to be moderated.
>
> >The belt clearly needs to transmit greater torque with high (electrical)
> >demand at low RPM's.
>
> >Is it critical? No, I can't imagine it's critical to the belt, but it
> makes a point.
What point? I could say, "Touching down at 60Kts puts an 'extra strain'
on tires. I recommend you make an effort to avoid putting the wheels
on the ground at more than 55Kts.
Or how about, "Turning the pitot heater on causes 'extra strain' on
the electrical system due to very high inrush currents while the
heater is cold. Recommend you turn everything else off before
turning the pitot heater ON. Wait at least 30 seconds before
bringing other equipment back on line."
Placarding an airplane for such silliness could get one drummed
out of the business. This whole discussion on "extra strain"
on alternators and belts is similarly silly.
>
> >Take it for what it is. Spin alternator faster if you want to use it's
> rated
> >power or watch your total load or *strain*, by sizing the alternator
> >properly or reducing load at low RPM's.
What are "low RPMs"? The alternator's ability to draw
torque is maximum at or above minimum speed for full
output. Below those speeds, torque MUST go down with
RPM because the ability of the magnetics to change
mechanical energy to electrical energy goes down. I haven't
talked with who ever thought this myth up but it seems
to suggest that as speeds drop, torque goes UP proportionately
so that at, say 1/2 speed for full output, one might expect
to DOUBLE the torque the alternator can draw. It's simply
not so.
Yes. Turn things ON, strains on systems go up. You turn
things OFF and strains go down. #1 rule of system design is
to accommodate all strains under all operating conditions
such that any need to nurse the system for strains goes
away. The best way to avoid straining an engine is never
feed it fuel and start it up. But if you want to go fly,
and you want to run electro-whizzies, then the systems
you put in place to accommodate the mission should be
sized to the task. ALL strains in all systems are
taken in stride as the normal and expected course of
events. It's the good engineering way.
If one takes this topic for what it truly is . . . an
anecdotal fact with no operational relevance then the
need to discuss it evaporates. Seriously discussing
such trivial concerns does not help the neophyte builder
and in fact, evidence shows that it raises unwarranted
concerns and propagates myths.
One strives to design a system that minimizes pilot workload,
minimizes probability of uncomfortable termination of flight
and minimizes cost of ownership. Teaching our fellow builders
how to worry about the manner and sequence in which the
alternator is loaded is either (1) a manifestation of poor
system design or (2) BS. Let's help our friends avoid the first
and accurately identify the second.
I still want to talk to any supplier who offers
such advice for either physics that help us design around
over-stressing their product or demonstrates that they too
have succumbed to someone's popular myth. In any case,
advising the builder/designer to incorporate such operational
concerns into their project is not good design or marketing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com.Available! |
| Subject: | Re: [ Jeff Smith ] : New Email List Photo Share |
Available!
2 questions: how do you draw that in Excel? I'd like to know how to do that.
Will that battery relay carry the starter current okay?
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: [ Jeff Smith ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Jeff Smith
Lists: AeroElectric-List
Subject: Requesting Peer Review of Electrical Architecture
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/SMITHBKN@aol.com.12.25.2005/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
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5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 2 Battery RV8A |
>
>Bob ...
>Assuming front and rear batt are equally charged. For an IO-360 engine
>start I want to tie both batts together for max start energy. Front batt
>CABLE to starter is #4 for approx 6 feet. Rear batt WIRE will be 8 feet and
>will tie to the #4 Cable for start. Rear batt is 26AH, front is 20AH.
>
>What is the WIRE size needed to enable the rear batt to boost the front batt
>and not over heat the WIRE? Easy answer is to use CABLE from the rear batt
>but I'm betting there is another answer. I want to avoid using CABLE from
>rear batt.
>Thanks for your patient teachings and great answers...
#4awg is fine for all. There's no compelling reason
to attempt to "balance" duties of the two batteries . . .
particularly in the cranking mode (seconds per flight
hour).
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator torque (switching off an IR alternator) |
| From: | "Goguen, Jon" <Jon.Goguen(at)umassmed.edu> |
I don't know how relevant it is to any particular installation, but if an alternator
is delivering constant power the torgue will indeed double as the RPM is
halved. The relevant equation is the same for alternators as it is for electric
motors: power output is directly proportional to the product of RPM and torque.
So, if an alternator is capable or delivering 350 watts (25 amps @ 14 volts)
at 1500 RPM, twice the torque is needed to yield this power as would required
to get 350 watts from the same same alternator at 3000 RPM. Of course,
the alternator may not be capable of twice the power (700 watts) at the higher
RPM due to magnetic saturation etc, but that isn't the issue. If one were designing
an alternator drive mechanism, the power to be delivered by the alternator
at low RPM would be a key factor in determining the torque requirement for
the drive. The torque required for power generation is much larger than that
contributed by rotor inertia and friction in automotive alternators.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Robert L. Nuckolls,
III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re: switching off an IR alternator
>
>I have the exact same alternator and familiar with the instructions
>you quote.
>
> >*..at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and
> >drive belt.*
>
> >Way too much has been made of the words *extra strain*. Just replace the
> >word *strain* with effort or force. The intent is only to be aware that at
> >idle you may not have rated output and load MAY need to be moderated.
>
> >The belt clearly needs to transmit greater torque with high (electrical)
> >demand at low RPM's.
>
> >Is it critical? No, I can't imagine it's critical to the belt, but it
> makes a point.
What point? I could say, "Touching down at 60Kts puts an 'extra strain'
on tires. I recommend you make an effort to avoid putting the wheels
on the ground at more than 55Kts.
Or how about, "Turning the pitot heater on causes 'extra strain' on
the electrical system due to very high inrush currents while the
heater is cold. Recommend you turn everything else off before
turning the pitot heater ON. Wait at least 30 seconds before
bringing other equipment back on line."
Placarding an airplane for such silliness could get one drummed
out of the business. This whole discussion on "extra strain"
on alternators and belts is similarly silly.
>
> >Take it for what it is. Spin alternator faster if you want to use it's
> rated
> >power or watch your total load or *strain*, by sizing the alternator
> >properly or reducing load at low RPM's.
What are "low RPMs"? The alternator's ability to draw
torque is maximum at or above minimum speed for full
output. Below those speeds, torque MUST go down with
RPM because the ability of the magnetics to change
mechanical energy to electrical energy goes down. I haven't
talked with who ever thought this myth up but it seems
to suggest that as speeds drop, torque goes UP proportionately
so that at, say 1/2 speed for full output, one might expect
to DOUBLE the torque the alternator can draw. It's simply
not so.
Yes. Turn things ON, strains on systems go up. You turn
things OFF and strains go down. #1 rule of system design is
to accommodate all strains under all operating conditions
such that any need to nurse the system for strains goes
away. The best way to avoid straining an engine is never
feed it fuel and start it up. But if you want to go fly,
and you want to run electro-whizzies, then the systems
you put in place to accommodate the mission should be
sized to the task. ALL strains in all systems are
taken in stride as the normal and expected course of
events. It's the good engineering way.
If one takes this topic for what it truly is . . . an
anecdotal fact with no operational relevance then the
need to discuss it evaporates. Seriously discussing
such trivial concerns does not help the neophyte builder
and in fact, evidence shows that it raises unwarranted
concerns and propagates myths.
One strives to design a system that minimizes pilot workload,
minimizes probability of uncomfortable termination of flight
and minimizes cost of ownership. Teaching our fellow builders
how to worry about the manner and sequence in which the
alternator is loaded is either (1) a manifestation of poor
system design or (2) BS. Let's help our friends avoid the first
and accurately identify the second.
I still want to talk to any supplier who offers
such advice for either physics that help us design around
over-stressing their product or demonstrates that they too
have succumbed to someone's popular myth. In any case,
advising the builder/designer to incorporate such operational
concerns into their project is not good design or marketing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Terminals for M22520/5-100 die |
| From: | "Goguen, Jon" <Jon.Goguen(at)umassmed.edu> |
Thanks Bob. I had a very curious conversation with Daniels trying to get this
information. I told them which tool and die I had, and asked for reccomended
terminals. I was told that they couldn't provide this information. However,
they did say offer to confirm if the die would crimp a specific terminal if I
provided the part number. I told them I had consulted their catalog, and that
this die was the only one listed for crimping pre-insulated terminals from 10-26
AWG. No good. I was told that the proper sequence is to specifiy my terminals,
then buy the tool. I suggested that if their computer could work the problem
one way, it ought to also be workable the other way around. Nope. They
then asked if I was in the aircraft industry, and I admitted my outsider status.
They seemed releived to know this, and provided no more information.
I was also unsuccessful in finding mil-spec status for either the PIDG or Avicrimp
terminals, so would have been reduced to the experimental route if you hadn't
come through. By the way, the Daniels HX-4 with this die seems to be quite
common on Ebay and sells in $50 range.
Thanks again,
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Robert L. Nuckolls,
III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Terminals for M22520/5-100 die
>
>I recently bought a Daniels HX-4 crimping tool with an M22520/5-100
>(Daniels Y501) die for pre-insulated terminals in AWG 10-26 range.
>Anyone know which brands of terminals work well with this die?
Found the die listed on p.31 of
http://www.astrotool.com/pdf/Astro.pdf
but nothing in this document that explains
Die set used with 620175 crimp tool frame to crimp size 22 thru 10
insulated terminals and splices conforming to MS17143, MS25036, MIL-T-7928,
MS25274, and
MS27429. The 630045 die set is an improved version (not mil-spec) which
provides a tighter crimp on smaller wires.
Sorry to take so long on this. Had to go look some things
up. The AMP PIDG terminals are in the MS25036 family
of military qualified devices. Therefore, the tool
you're asking about should do nicely with these highly
recommended terminals (along with other equivalent brands
like Molex "Avicrimp")
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
"But it was my understanding that Carlos wanted to run one unit off one buss
and both units off the other buss. Maybe I got that screwed up !"
Larry and Old Bob,
What Carlos said was,
"what I want is a switch that has 1
OFF position (no power for both EFIS units), 1 ON position (power from one
source bus is feeding both units) and other ON position (power from 2nd
source bus is feeding both units"
So, I read it that He wants to power both EFIS units simultaneously with
either bus.
It seems as though Larry's solution would work.
Stan Sutterfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
In a message dated 12/26/2005 12:34:13 A.M. Central Standard Time,
Speedy11(at)aol.com writes:
So, I read it that He wants to power both EFIS units simultaneously with
either bus.
It seems as though Larry's solution would work.
Stan Sutterfield
Good Morning Stan,
I agree, but don't you think my solution would work as well? I always
thought simpler was better!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
| From: | Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com> |
Bob,
I have to agree. Your idea is simpler, and better.
Although Carlos should make sure he has a switch that
is rated at 130% of the ampacity of the total load.
Larry Mac Donald
lm4(at)juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
Do not achcive
>
>
>
> In a message dated 12/26/2005 12:34:13 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> Speedy11(at)aol.com writes:
>
> So, I read it that He wants to power both EFIS units simultaneously
> with
> either bus.
> It seems as though Larry's solution would work.
> Stan Sutterfield
>
>
>
> Good Morning Stan,
>
> I agree, but don't you think my solution would work as well? I
> always
> thought simpler was better!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator torque (switching alternators) |
>
>
>I don't know how relevant it is to any particular installation, but if an
>alternator is delivering constant power the torgue will indeed double as
>the RPM is halved. The relevant equation is the same for alternators as
>it is for electric motors: power output is directly proportional to the
>product of RPM and torque. So, if an alternator is capable or delivering
>350 watts (25 amps @ 14 volts) at 1500 RPM, twice the torque is needed to
>yield this power as would required to get 350 watts from the same same
>alternator at 3000 RPM.
You're correct that for speeds ABOVE minimum speed for
full output, Torque(1) * RPM(1) is approximately
equal to Torque(2) * RPM(2). I.e., for a given power
output the torque-rpm product is relatively constant.
> Of course, the alternator may not be capable of twice the power (700
> watts) at the higher RPM due to magnetic saturation etc, but that isn't
> the issue. If one were designing an alternator drive mechanism, the
> power to be delivered by the alternator at low RPM would be a key factor
> in determining the torque requirement for the drive.
Here's the rub . . . define "low rpm". This thread
was based on a supplier use of the term "low rpm"
without giving the user a clue as to what that means.
The supplier's admonition further fails to define the
magnitude of benefit to be derived from observing
the cited concerns. If I pamper your product as
recommended, may I expect twice the life? 1.1 times the
life? 1.00001 times the life? If he can't tell you, then
it's another manifestation of, dare I say ignorance
about the capabilities of his own product.
> The torque required for power generation is much larger than that
> contributed by rotor
> inertia and friction in automotive alternators.
Absolutely. And the major force in a belt, particularly
one with a small wrap angle around a small pulley is
static tension. Any additional forces attributable to
electrical loading of the alternator are a small fraction
of the total.
My points intended to illuminate the vacuousness of this
discussion are:
(1) "extra strain" under extra demand is a foregone
conclusion and should be accommodated by the skilled
designer as an expected and normal condition. The notion
that a customer should be advised to have concerns for
turning ANY electrical device on or off during the course
of normal operations is either baseless or an overt admission
that the alternator is not suited to the task. For example.
Assume XYZ Alternator Co were selling alternators across
the isle from AEC Alternator Co and a customer walked up to
me wanting to talk alternators. He says, "XYZ guys tell
me that it's a good thing to worry about when and
under what conditions I turn their product off and on.
What about YOUR product?"
Aside from an intense curiosity as to why they would so
limit their customer's utilization of their product, I would
confidently say, "Our alternators are as robust as any
offered to the DC powered vehicles market. We have no
such restrictions no matter what kind of system you anticipate
will utilize our product. I have no idea why they would make
such an assertion. However, knowing what I do about
alternators in general, I'll bet a dollar to a donut that
the folks in XYZ booth haven't a clue as to the physics
that control the functionality of their product and they're
simply repeating some hangar myth or mis-understanding."
(2) We can hypothesize about the term 'low rpm' and
accurately deduce that below minimum speed for regulation,
the constant speed-torque product does not apply and
there is no way that turning the alternator on-off
under any conditions exerts any more "strain" on the
system than when the alternator is turning faster than
minimum speed for full output. If they're talking about
speeds right at minimum speed for full output, then it's
true that maximum torque demanded by the alternator is
at its peak value. Depending on whether you have a 7.5"
or 9.7" ring gear pulley, and assuming 2.5" alternator
pulley and 6000 rpm for full output, this calls for prop
rpms of 2000 and 1540 as the "areas of concern" for
indiscriminate flipping of alternator switches.
If this is a REAL concern, then they should further
advise their customers to tape a colored arc to the
face glass of their tachometer to remind them when
alternator operating caution is called for. Hmmmm . . .
now, shall we make it 2000-2100? How about 2000 to
2200? I know, let's recommend switching the alternator
ON before engine start up, and OFF after engine shut down.
Switch at all other times is deleterious to system
longevity and to be avoided. This is silly on the face
of it. Anyone dispensing such advice is hurting both
themselves and their customers.
As I mentioned in another post, should I suggest
such a caution be added to the POH of any product I've
worked on, at a minimum I could expect a serious talk
between my boss and myself in his office . . . but
it would get a good laugh in a engineering coordination
meeting as my fellow designers would believe I was
making a joke.
I'll remind readers that while this thread title originally
suggested this is an issue for internally regulated
alternators. The physics that control mechanical
stresses is the same for both internally and externally
regulated machines. We've always designed DC power
generation systems for aircraft to accommodate positive
control by the pilot under any and all conditions
with both generators and alternators. If the OBAM
aircraft community is striving for performance and
utility equal to or better than what spam cans since
day-one, then trash-canning the "extra strain" concerns
for alternator operations is a good thing to do.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wire it |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to |
wire it
>
>Bob,
> I have to agree. Your idea is simpler, and better.
> Although Carlos should make sure he has a switch that
>is rated at 130% of the ampacity of the total load.
>Larry Mac Donald
Switch "ratings" for use in personally owned and
operated light aircraft are almost meaningless.
Most switches in airplanes die of old age and effects
of the environment in which they live. I've replaced
or "cleaned" far more switches due to corroded contacts
and dis-use that switches that wore out due to failure
to observe ratings. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wire it |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to |
wire it
>
>"But it was my understanding that Carlos wanted to run one unit off one buss
>and both units off the other buss. Maybe I got that screwed up !"
>
>
>Larry and Old Bob,
>What Carlos said was,
>
>"what I want is a switch that has 1
>OFF position (no power for both EFIS units), 1 ON position (power from one
>source bus is feeding both units) and other ON position (power from 2nd
>source bus is feeding both units"
>
>So, I read it that He wants to power both EFIS units simultaneously with
>either bus.
>It seems as though Larry's solution would work.
If the goal is to insure SYSTEM reliability, has anyone
considered the potential consequences for driving power for
both systems through a single switch? May I suggest that
the idea of independent power sources via either dual batteries
or perhaps dual alternator is sufficient to insure that
power adequate to comfortably terminate any flight is always
available. After that, SYSTEM reliability benefits most
by hard-wiring dual systems to each of dual power sources
WITHOUT intermediate switches . . . and one certainly wants
to avoid single points of failure for both systems.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | brass straps between contactors |
Bob,
The lister was inquiring about "strapping" between the contactors. I wonder
if a 1/2" width is suffcient given the size of Contactor posts. It seems at
least a 3/4" or maybe 1" strip should be used. K&N has this in 0.64"
thicknesses. Here's a picture of what I just did. Do you think this will be
ok?
Good catch! Of course, cutting a .312" hole in a piece of material
only .500" wide doesn't leave much hole edge margin . . . only
about .090" per side. If done carefully, it's going to be okay.
Outcome of the task in .032" material may be problematic. Of course
it's okay to go both thicker and wider. Electrically, .032 x .50
(.016 square-in) is sufficient to the current carrying task given
the surface area and heat sinking afforded by the installation.
But as a practical matter, the neophyte builder will have a better
probability of success with .75" wide material (.22" edge margins)
and .064" thick for easier hole drilling (by all means use a
Unibit).
I've added your photo to the collection of examples for contactor
interconnect strapping at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Contactor_Interconnect
Thanks for sharing this with us. What you've fabricated is
most assuredly adequate to the task . . . perhaps bordering
on overkill but I wouldn't suggest you change a thing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Terminals for M22520/5-100 die |
>
>
>Thanks Bob. I had a very curious conversation with Daniels trying to get
>this information. I told them which tool and die I had, and asked for
>reccomended terminals. I was told that they couldn't provide this
>information. However, they did say offer to confirm if the die would
>crimp a specific terminal if I provided the part number. I told them I
>had consulted their catalog, and that this die was the only one listed for
>crimping pre-insulated terminals from 10-26 AWG. No good. I was told
>that the proper sequence is to specifiy my terminals, then buy the
>tool. I suggested that if their computer could work the problem one way,
>it ought to also be workable the other way around. Nope. They then asked
>if I was in the aircraft industry, and I admitted my outsider
>status. They seemed releived to know this, and provided no more information.
>
>I was also unsuccessful in finding mil-spec status for either the PIDG or
>Avicrimp terminals, so would have been reduced to the experimental route
>if you hadn't come through. By the way, the Daniels HX-4 with this die
>seems to be quite common on Ebay and sells in $50 range.
I'm not surprised. In an world that seems hell-bent on "reducing cost"
by outsourcing and driving job descriptions out of policy and procedure
manuals, I'm finding that less and less folks who interact with
customers know much about the products they're offering.
With respect to your specific need for data, I found an AMP catalog
at:
http://www.tycoelectronics.com/aerospace/pdf/1308940_Sec_09.pdf
Do a search on "25036" and you'll discover that the AMP PIDG,
Ampli-Bond and Terminyl products have dash numbers under
MS25036. Given the nature of your tool's description and
compatibility with other mil-specs for the smaller terminals
suggests that the dash-numbers that Daniels had in mind for
your die-set include the PIDG series.
Do some test crimps and pull tests. The end result should not
look mashed (over crimped) and it should pass the pull tests
for up to 20 pounds of pull on 22AWG in a red PIDG terminal.
I'm 99% certain that your tool is find for this task.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Canadian Aero (Niagara Air Parts) |
Found installation instructions for the CAM-040 series
alternators here:
http://www.canadianaeromanufacturing.com/alt-instr.pdf
The most noteworthy items in the instructions is at the bottom
where we see the statement:
Conditions in which a very high draw is being made of the alternator at low
RPM will cause extra
strain on the alternator and drive belt. Consider reducing the total load
in these situations, or
switching the alternator off and drawing from the battery only, if the high
load will be brief.
I'll write to the technical support folks and see if they
can offer any clarification of the recommendation with either
better numbers on "high draw", "low rpm", "extra strain" etc.
I'll inquire further as to what benefits might be expected from
adopting an operating philosophy that embraces the cautionary
paragraph.
Finally, in other places on the website we see a link for an
overvoltage protection system:
http://www.canadianaeromanufacturing.com/ASP101-PIT%201.pdf
Amazingly similar to figure Z-24. I'll inquire also as to their
experience and recommendations for incorporating OV protection
with their product.
Watch this space . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More SD8 Installation Questions |
>
> >
> > The safe, conservative thing to do is mount it inside. Lots
> > of folks have mounted them outside and have not reported
> > unsatisfactory service life . . . but this is purely anecdotal
> > along with any opinions offered one way or the other. If you WANT
> > to put it outside, then give it a try. Let us know what you
> > discover.
>
>But, most people install the SD-8 to have as a backup in case the
>main alternator fails. Main alternators don't fail that often, so I
>bet most installed SD-8s have never been used for very long. The
>apparently good service history might not mean that much.
You should understand that the SD-8 was the very first product
B&C brought to the OBAM aviation community. This would have
been about 25 years ago. This alternator was very popular
with Rutan's Variez builders looking for the ultimate in
light weight installations with no starter and minimum
battery. As the ONLY source of engine driven power, many
of these builders flew VFR night conditions where nav lts,
strobe and one radio were the only loads.
The SD-8 has a very long history as primary source of power
for some aircraft . . . it wasn't until I suggested the
all-electric airplane on a budget in 1999 . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/allelect.pdf
. . . that the idea of replacing a vacuum pump with
the SD-8 really took off.
>No matter where you install it, if you are counting on it to power
>your electrical system with a certain electrical load, for a given
>duration, you should demonstrate this capability by actual test. If
>you haven't demonstrated the capability, including electrical load,
>duration and ambient temperature, you have no way of knowing whether
>the SD-8 (and regulator) will be able to do the job when needed. A
>short test is not sufficient, as it might not get the regulator up to
>its stabilized temperature.
Absolutely! We have to do this all the time in the certified
side. Confirming achievement of one's design goals by considered
testing is required for certified ships . . . the only thing that
keeps it from being "required" of OBAM aircraft is (1) the fact that
the FAA hasn't figured out a way to make it happen and/or (2)
the willingness some folks have to assume that all the stuff
they install will do the expected job. This works MOST of the
time but when it doesn't work, the problem invariably rests
on unanticipated installation variables . . . like the ability
of the rectifier-regulator to dump heat.
Nothing builds more confidence than going out to measure something
followed by another investigator's CONFIRMATION of results.
Variez builders have conducted the repeatable experiment on the
SD-8 for two decades . . . but when it comes to installation variables
we can only deduce that it's possible to duplicate the performance
in an RV-8 after we've taken the data and shared it for others
to confirm and/or rely on.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re:More SD8 Installation Questions |
>
>The poster doesn't indicate what flavor of RV he is building. If you
>install the regulator/capacitor/relay combination (and the relay is flimsy
>plastic)
"Flimsy"? Look under the hood of your car and find out how many
relays are non-flimsy metal. The S704-1 relay is a member of
a large family of products designed to live in the automotive
world. See:
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/schrack/pdf/T9A.pdf
>, on the left side of the firewall of a 6,7 or 9, it will sit behind the
>oil cooler outlet and exposed to a blast of 150 - 200F+ air(on a hot
>climb-day).
Do you have some measured data on these temperatures? Is
there a cooler location forward of the firewall?
>If it were me, I'd find an "accessible" location on the cold side and put
>it there. The upper right side on a 7/9 might be OK but you'd need to
>move the brake reservoir.
>
>All this depends on battery location. If it's on the hotside you should
>watch out that you don't hang something above it too close that you can't
>remove it from the case for service or replacement.
Yup, the conservative thing to do is get it out of
the engine compartment . . . but this does not guarantee
anything. The rectifier-regulator generates its own heat
and unless accommodated for heat transfer into the mounting
surface, ambient temps won't have much to do with the
device's ultimate performance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire
it
>>"what I want is a switch that has 1
>>OFF position (no power for both EFIS units), 1 ON position (power from one
>>source bus is feeding both units) and other ON position (power from 2nd
>>source bus is feeding both units"
>>
>>So, I read it that He wants to power both EFIS units simultaneously with
>>either bus.
>>It seems as though Larry's solution would work.
>
> If the goal is to insure SYSTEM reliability, has anyone
> considered the potential consequences for driving power for
> both systems through a single switch? May I suggest that
> the idea of independent power sources via either dual batteries
> or perhaps dual alternator is sufficient to insure that
> power adequate to comfortably terminate any flight is always
> available. After that, SYSTEM reliability benefits most
> by hard-wiring dual systems to each of dual power sources
> WITHOUT intermediate switches . . . and one certainly wants
> to avoid single points of failure for both systems.
>
> Bob . . .
Bob
This is not a Dual System. This is a system (GRT-EFIS) with 2 separate
units, the Multi Function Display and the AHRS (actually 3 but the
magnetometer gets power from the AHRS), both needing power, and both
admitting 3 sources of power. I intend to use 2 sources of power in each
unit, coming from 2 different busses (the ExpBus and the Aux Battery bus).
Are you suggesting that I should connect the MFD Unit and the AHRS unit
directly to both power busses?
In that case, from what source are both units going to get the juice?
And what about if I want to fly with the EFIS turned Off (for example in a
local flight or a simple test flight) ? Or in a cross country flight if the
alternator go south and I simply need to turn Off the EFIS to save power?
How can I achieve it without a switch?
Thanks
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Requesting Peer Review of Electrical Architecture |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0433 1.0000 -1.7424
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by Jeff Smith
Lists: AeroElectric-List
Subject: Requesting Peer Review of Electrical Architecture
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/SMITHBKN@aol.com.12.25.2005/index.html>>
12/26/2005
Hello Jeff, It appears that when you are operating on the endurance bus only
(altitude encoder not functioning) that you will not be in compliance with
14 CFR Sec. 91.215. Do you concur? Is this of concern to you?
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More SD8 Installation Questions |
Hello Bob
> This alternator was very popular
> with Rutan's Variez builders looking for the ultimate in
> light weight installations with no starter and minimum
> battery. As the ONLY source of engine driven power, many
> of these builders flew VFR night conditions where nav lts,
> strobe and one radio were the only loads.
>
>
As far as I know they had a Conti O-200 so they had the 1 : 1.5 gear
From my old load analysis this would be (measured with 12.5 V):
Strobes 3.1 A
Nav 3.96 A
Position 3.44 A
KX-125 0.4 A
In cruise with 12.5 V I see that the SD-8 delivers around 10.6 A the
load without transmission would be according the numbers I measured on
my Aeroflash units 10.9 A. Did I calculate someting wrong or did they
use lower consumation units? The advantage without starter is, that the
battery is still plenty full, but on the ground we would drain the whole
load on the battery only and in cruise we just generate as much energy
as in a NVFR situation is used. I guess this is a thight situation on
the electrical side and one has to make a good calculation as to decide
what to do.
Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wire it |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to |
wire it
>
>Bob
>
>This is not a Dual System. This is a system (GRT-EFIS) with 2 separate
>units, the Multi Function Display and the AHRS (actually 3 but the
>magnetometer gets power from the AHRS), both needing power, and both
>admitting 3 sources of power. I intend to use 2 sources of power in each
>unit, coming from 2 different busses (the ExpBus and the Aux Battery bus).
>Are you suggesting that I should connect the MFD Unit and the AHRS unit
>directly to both power busses?
What does the manufacturer suggest? When I design gizmos for multiple
power sources, there are two or more pins that hard-wire to two or
more sources and automatic switching inside my product. Any need for
pilot intervention is avoided where ever possible.
Can you send me wiring diagrams? Are installation instructions
downloadable from their website?
>In that case, from what source are both units going to get the juice?
>And what about if I want to fly with the EFIS turned Off (for example in a
>local flight or a simple test flight) ? Or in a cross country flight if the
>alternator go south and I simply need to turn Off the EFIS to save power?
>How can I achieve it without a switch?
How does your load analysis stack up that you would
find yourself in a "save power" mode? These devices
use so little energy that I would think you can easily
craft an endurance mode that would make shutting the
EFIS off unnecessary.
If there are no EFIS controls for independent control of
activity and you believe there is value in shutting the system
off, then a switch becomes necessary. I'd like to understand
the imperative for ever shutting it off. We don't do it
on any of our glass-cockpits at RAC.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Yet another crimper question |
Hi Bob,
I acquired a used AMP 59250 T-head crimper. Seems to be in almost new
condition. It did not come with instructions and I have been puzzling about what
the little dial at the top is for (for that matter, how exactly do I use this
thing in general). Do you know of somewhere that TYCO/AMP has instructions
for use? I couldn't find it anywhere on their web site. Meanwhile, I sent
to B & C for a bunch of connectors and will start experimenting with the
crimper.
An ongoing thanks for all your time and insights.
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV 8 Wings
San Ramon, CA 94583
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Requesting Peer Review of Electrical Architecture |
On 26 Dec 2005, at 16:06, wrote:
>
> Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by
> Jeff Smith
>
> <
> Poster: Jeff Smith
>
> Lists: AeroElectric-List
>
> Subject: Requesting Peer Review of Electrical Architecture
>
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/SMITHBKN@aol.com.
> 12.25.2005/index.html>>
>
> 12/26/2005
>
> Hello Jeff, It appears that when you are operating on the endurance
> bus only
> (altitude encoder not functioning) that you will not be in
> compliance with
> 14 CFR Sec. 91.215. Do you concur? Is this of concern to you?
But, this should only occur following an electrical failure. If we
have to comply with all the FARs following a systems failure, we had
better install dual transponders, dual everything else, and a second
engine.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery switches |
I can attempt to describe my manual battery switch plan. Alternatively, if
you are familiar with RV-8 construction, you can see how I've installed the
switches at www.rv-8a.net at the end of the Chronology page. You can also find
electrical info on the Electrical page.
I have two battery switches, one for the front (I call it the Main) battery
and one for the aft (I call it the Standby) battery. I'm planning a 4AWG (or
maybe 6AWG) cable from the main battery to the manual switch (distance of about
22") with a 200A fuse at the battery end. Then from the manual switch back
to the battery compartment to attach to the starter contactor (hmmm...I suppose
I could use a manual switch instead of a contactor for the starter). At that
same connction to the starter contactor, I would take power to the main bus.
Is 22" too far from the battery to have manual switches?
For the aft standby battery, the manual switch is even farther from the
battery - about six feet of #8 wire.
Stan Sutterfield
>Have any builders opted to use manual battery switches? If so, do they work
>well? Any problem with the "keys?" Is there a way to paint the red plastic
>keys?
>I'm thinking about having a key machined out of aluminum if the plastic key
>cannot be painted.
>Stan Sutterfield
????Why???? . . . manual battery switches are perfectly
fine replacements for contactors. Many of the first
electrically fitted airplanes used them along with
manual starter switches.
But a manual battery switch needs to be as close to
the battery as your contactor would have been. Unless
your battery is handy to the pilot's seat, the battery
switch is not going to be handy either. I've known
several builders over the years who have crafted
Bowden controls to remotely operate a manual battery
switch. In this case, the 'key' was replaced with
a belcrank that translated the push-pull action of
a Bowden control into a rotary motion required by
the battery switch.
Can you describe your proposed installation in more
detail?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Ground Fault Protection For Rear Battery Cable |
Bob and everyone else ...
When considering a ground fault, what is best used to protect a #4 cable
run, from the rear battery, in an RV, while powering a bus?
What is best used to protect this same #4 cable, when it is in parallel with
the front battery and charging current is flowing to the rear batt?
Thanks ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Yet another crimper question |
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I acquired a used AMP 59250 T-head crimper. Seems to be in almost new
>condition. It did not come with instructions and I have been
>puzzling about what
>the little dial at the top is for (for that matter, how exactly do I use
>this
>thing in general). Do you know of somewhere that TYCO/AMP has instructions
>for use? I couldn't find it anywhere on their web site. Meanwhile, I sent
>to B & C for a bunch of connectors and will start experimenting with the
>crimper.
>
>An ongoing thanks for all your time and insights.
The "dial" is used to set crimp height on insulation only.
This allows the fabricator to accommodate the thinnest (22769/16)
to thickest (automotive PVC) wires. For 99% of your terminals,
"1" is appropriate. If you want to put multiple wires into a
single crimp as described in:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html
Then some number above "1" will open the dies as appropriate
to the bulkier insulations. This feature is discussed in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html
and illustrated close up in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/JR.jpg
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery Switches. |
I am convinced that an electric battery contactor is unnecessary for my system.
I have steered other builders to "Flaming River" remote battery switches. These
are racecar switches and should fit in RV's just fine, but rolling your own
is easy to do if you use the basic parts from a cheap battery switch. Harbor
Freight 91477-0VGA or even 33783-0VGA or similar.
I have planned to put the parts into a battery case as shown with the big shunt
and the Xantrex XBM battery monitor. The fuses shown are from the XBM installation
manual. They may disappear when I examine what they do.
http://www.periheliondesign.com/BatteryMechanicalSchematic.jpg
or
http://www.periheliondesign.com/BatteryMechanicalSchematic.dxf
Notice that the "EMERGENCY" T-handle also shuts off the fuel and does other things
to simplify the "Crash" checklist.
Also please note that automobiles do not have B+ disconnects, but the emergency
personnel carry a big set of cable shears and that's the first tool they use
when arriving on the scene.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and
deserve to get it good and hard." -- H. L. Mencken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
>
> What does the manufacturer suggest?
> Can you send me wiring diagrams? Are installation instructions
> downloadable from their website?
See
http://www.grtavionics.com/documents/EFIS%20Series%20I%20Installation%20Manual%20010405.pdf
specially pages 3 and 4
and
http://www.grtavionics.com/documents/Display%20Unit%20Connector%20Definitions%20Rev%20D.pdf
and
http://www.grtavionics.com/documents/AHRS%20and%20Magnetometer%20Pinout.pdf
> How does your load analysis stack up that you would
> find yourself in a "save power" mode? These devices
> use so little energy that I would think you can easily
> craft an endurance mode that would make shutting the
> EFIS off unnecessary.
I think I can agree with you. I'm going to confirm my load analysis.
> If there are no EFIS controls for independent control of
> activity and you believe there is value in shutting the system
> off, then a switch becomes necessary. I'd like to understand
> the imperative for ever shutting it off. We don't do it
> on any of our glass-cockpits at RAC.
Well, I didn't know that. I confess that I've never flown with a glass
cockpit, therefore I've no experience. I thought it would be good to be able
to shut the EFIS Off, keeping other avionics On. Maybe I can change my mind.
Nevertheless, please review above links to GRT avionics and give me your
opinion
Thanks
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | Manual Battery Switches |
Eric,
33783-0VGA is 100 amps continuous, 1000 amps surge @ 12 volt; 50 amp
continuous, 500 amps surge @ 24 volt;
33783-0VGA - no current data provided
Just wondering - would these be ok for cranking also?
Rumen
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from Eric M. Jones; Date: 09:44 AM 12/27/2005
-0500)
I am convinced that an electric battery contactor is unnecessary for my
system. I have steered other builders to "Flaming River" remote battery
switches. These are racecar switches and should fit in RV's just fine, but
rolling your own is easy to do if you use the basic parts from a cheap
battery switch. Harbor Freight 91477-0VGA or even 33783-0VGA or similar.
----snip-----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery Switches. |
Eric ... also at harbor freight
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92688
is the identical manual batt sw, w/o the funky moisture cap, for the "blue
light" sale price of only $5.99 reached through search # 92688-0VGA. I like
the Flaming River batt disconnect better, it's push-pull but a bit pricey.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Manual Battery Switches.
>
>
> I am convinced that an electric battery contactor is unnecessary for my
> system. I have steered other builders to "Flaming River" remote battery
> switches. These are racecar switches and should fit in RV's just fine, but
> rolling your own is easy to do if you use the basic parts from a cheap
> battery switch. Harbor Freight 91477-0VGA or even 33783-0VGA or similar.
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch/Relay Contact Ratings |
>
>I've got a question that's concerning me about relay contact
>ratings.
>
>I have the B&C S704-1 20A relay.
>
>It's a Potter & Brumfield T9AP5D52-12
>with the following ratings:
>NO
>NC=10
>240 VAC
>
>
>Now I thought that since this is a recommended product for 20A
>service, that I could trust that, but when looking at the
>ratings, it's showing 20A@240VAC. From everything I thought I
>ever learned about switches, the AC rating is no big deal...
>the DC rating is the hard one to pass and is usually much
>lower, correct?. So what's this relay REALLY going to
>be good for in DC service?
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
Switch (and relay) ratings have to do with arcing control
which is easier in AC than DC. Keep in mind that ratings
have to do with contact performance AFTER some number
of switching cycles that range from 10,000 to 100,000
depending on how ambitious and adventuresome the manufacturer.
If you flew every day, it would take you years to put
1/10th the ratings value for wear and tear on a
switch or relay.
Here's a contactor that's used well inside it's published
ratings but we still see a couple failures a year out of
a fleet of 7,000 aircraft.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/6041_Contactor.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/6041_Contactor_Failure.jpg
This contactor sees a 100A continuous load (rated for 200)
on the air-conditioner drive motor.
On the other hand, here's another failed relay contact:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/HiRes1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/HiRes2.jpg
This contact is OPEN circuit . . . didn't have enough
current flowing in it to keep the contacts clean. None-the-less,
operated well inside its ratings.
Here's a a contact pair that sticks occasionally. Again,
operated well inside its ratings:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/1_B30K3_stick.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/Stick_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/Stick_2.jpg
Most of the failures above operated more flight hours
than you'll ever put on your airplane. All of the failures
were in circuits where the designer dutifully accommodated
the manufacturer's ratings for the device.
Some of those pictures were taken in the course of deducing
some VERY expensive failures in terms of time to trouble
shoot and downtime on revenue generating machines.
But at the same time, they represent less than 1/100th of
1% of all potential contact failures in a given fleet.
Don't agonize over it. We worry about those things
in certified and military aircraft because we have to test
to endurance ratings that match what we claim for our
products. But in the final analysis, very few moving contact devices
get trashed because of unreasonable operating stresses.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wire it |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to |
wire it
> > What does the manufacturer suggest?
> > Can you send me wiring diagrams? Are installation instructions
> > downloadable from their website?
>
>See
>http://www.grtavionics.com/documents/EFIS%20Series%20I%20Installation%20Manual%20010405.pdf
>
>specially pages 3 and 4
>
>and
>http://www.grtavionics.com/documents/Display%20Unit%20Connector%20Definitions%20Rev%20D.pdf
>
>and
>http://www.grtavionics.com/documents/AHRS%20and%20Magnetometer%20Pinout.pdf
>
>
>
> > If there are no EFIS controls for independent control of
> > activity and you believe there is value in shutting the system
> > off, then a switch becomes necessary. I'd like to understand
> > the imperative for ever shutting it off. We don't do it
> > on any of our glass-cockpits at RAC.
>
>Well, I didn't know that. I confess that I've never flown with a glass
>cockpit, therefore I've no experience. I thought it would be good to be able
>to shut the EFIS Off, keeping other avionics On. Maybe I can change my mind.
>Nevertheless, please review above links to GRT avionics and give me your
>opinion
This is a REALLY disappointing set of instructions. Not one schematic.
The functionality of a pin in a connector and the best places to hook
it are best described in schematics. I once spent two weeks in Compton
CA teaching Japanese technicians how to troubleshoot and align some
video equipment we manufactured. They spoke very little English, I spoke
zero Japanese but we both knew television signal processing and schematics
were the universal language for deducing functionality of the system.
We managed rather well. Had I published manuals like those cited above,
well . . .
I'll read these and see if I can deduce from the language and vernacular
EXACTLY what the writer intends for you and me to understand.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery Switches. |
>Eric,
>33783-0VGA is 100 amps continuous, 1000 amps surge @ 12 volt; 50 amp
>continuous, 500 amps surge @ 24 volt; 33783-0VGA - no current data provided
>Just wondering - would these be ok for cranking also? Rumen
Rumen,
That's a definite maybe. I don't know how these specs were designed. But the
connector only has to open under load once, and they use these things on
vehicles routinely. I'd make sure they were silicone greased too.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and
deserve to get it good and hard." -- H. L. Mencken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Requesting Peer Review of Electrical Architecture |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.3422 1.0000 -0.1809
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Kevin
Horton
12/27/2005
Hello Kevin, Thanks for your input.
<<1) You wrote: "But, this should only occur following an electrical
failure.">>
Right you are.
<<2) You wrote: "If we have to comply with all the FARs following a systems
failure,...skip...>>
My concern was not with the routine compliance with FAR's following a
systems failure. My concern was Jeff being in IMC, with an alternator
failure, depending upon battery reserve, being vectored by ATC to a nearby
safe letdown destination with terrain clearance a factor, and Jeff's
transponder not transmitting altitude information because his encoder was
not on the endurance bus.
Since 14 CFR Sec. 91.215 specifically requires a transponder to be putting
out altitude information that reference seemed to be the most succinct
wording to describe the altitude reporting requirement.
Jeff's email response to me was that he was moving his altitude encoder to
the endurance bus.
OC
< bus only (altitude encoder not functioning) that you will not be in
> compliance with 14 CFR Sec. 91.215. Do you concur? Is this of concern to
> you?>>
<>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
Carlos, I know you have thought this out and I assume this is the GRT unit
but have you considered that the EFIS chooses which bus has the higher
voltage automatically. If you go with ON-OFF-ON you will cause a reboot as
you switch through power sources and actually defeat the purpose of the
multiple power source availability. If you switch both sources to the EFIS
so that both are on at the same time, the EFIS will draw off the higher bus.
Todd says the system will not allow one bus to drain the other. Assuming
that to be true, you may not really gain anything from the On-Off-On set up.
Can't remember the switch number but there is one that switches both power
sources to the EFIS independently in a simple On-Off mode and then lets the
EFIS pick whichever has the higher voltage. Even simpler, I "think" you
could accomplish the same thing with a diode in each power feed to a simple
on/off toggle.
In my configuration, I have a separate switch for the DUs and AHRS but each
switch applies two power sources to the unit and lets it do the rest.
This is all new to me also so if I am missing the obvious please feel free
to says so,
Thanks Bill S
7a Dual GRT fuse/panel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos
Trigo
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it
First of all I must say I'm not an EE and as you're going to confirm, I'm
far away from being a DC expert. The only good thing I'm near is that I'm
humble enough to admit my ignorance and I like to learn ..:-).
Well, for the experts, my problem certainly is a simple task.
I am wiring my EFIS and need to figure out a switch to control power to both
devices, the Display Unit and the AHRS. Both have D-Sub connectors that
allow 3 alternative power sources, from wich I intend to use 2.
So, I want to connect power from 2 diferent buses to the 2 separate units,
and do it through a 3 positon switch (On-Off-On).
For better understanding of my "problem", what I want is a switch that has 1
OFF position (no power for both EFIS units), 1 ON position (power from one
source bus is feeding both units) and other ON position (power from 2nd
source bus is feeding both units).
Which kind of switch do I need, and how is wiring done?
Thanks in advance
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery Switches. |
>
>
>33783-0VGA is 100 amps continuous, 1000 amps surge @ 12 volt; 50 amp
>continuous, 500 amps surge @ 24 volt; 33783-0VGA - no current data provided
>Just wondering - would these be ok for cranking also? Rumen
Again, a good example of what switch ratings mean and
what they often fail to explain. Switches are rated to
do SWITCHING. Their service life is likely to be achieved
if one does not exceed limits while SWITCHING. Keep in
mind that a battery contactor generally SWITCHES relatively
small loads assuming most things are OFF when the master
switch is closed . . . well under 20A.
Now, when you hit the starter button, a starter contactor
does the switching but impresses the starter motor's inrush
currents on all other components in the system including the
battery contactor. The widely used RBM/Stancore/White-Rogers
contactors are rated to SWITCH only 70A yet once the contacts
are closed and stable, they don't mind the 500+ amp inrush
it takes to spin up a starter motor from a healthy battery.
The battery switches under discussion are equally suited
to cranking engines as long as you're not using the battery
switch to CONTROL the starter . . . this is the job of another,
intermittent duty contactor designed for that service.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
>
snip
> I assume this is the GRT unit
Yes it is
> If you go with ON-OFF-ON you will cause a reboot as
> you switch through power sources
Very well observed! I definetely cannot use the On-Off-On switch...
> and actually defeat the purpose of the multiple power source
> availability.
Also well observed. Going the way I inicially planned to, I would not have
the "automatic" feature of 2 alternative power sources.
> If you switch both sources to the EFIS so that both are on at the
> same time, the EFIS will draw off the higher bus.
> Todd says the system will not allow one bus to drain the other.
> Assuming that to be true, you may not really gain anything from the
> On-Off-On set up.
I agree with you
> Can't remember the switch number but there is one that switches
> both power sources to the EFIS independently in a simple On-Off
> mode and then lets the EFIS pick whichever has the higher voltage.
Now I need again some expert help here. Which is that switch?
> Even simpler, I "think" you could accomplish the same thing with a
> diode in each power feed to a simple on/off toggle.
Expert listers, which is the best way to go?
> In my configuration, I have a separate switch for the DUs and AHRS
> but each switch applies two power sources to the unit and lets it do
> the rest.
I would like to have only one switch applying both power sources to both
units.
Thanks very much Bill
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave & Brenda Emond" <d_emond(at)mweb.co.za> |
| Subject: | Re: Re Standby Regulator SB1B-14 |
Hi Bob
I would appreciate if you could help by answering the following.
I have decided to go with your z-12L architecture. Could I use a Cessna type
master, and switch between Main alternator and standby using the alt switch
on this master.
This way if overvoltage warning light came on, I could switch over. If
voltage dropped on the main alternator. The standby would automatically take
up the slack.
Dave Emond
#40159
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Manual Batt Sw distance |
I have two battery switches, one for the front (I call it the Main) battery
and one for the aft (I call it the Standby) battery. I'm planning a 4AWG (or
maybe 6AWG) cable from the main battery to the manual switch (distance of about
22") with a 200A fuse at the battery end. Then from the manual switch back
to the battery compartment to attach to the starter contactor. At that same
connection to the starter contactor, I would take power to the main bus.
Is 22" too far from the battery to have manual switches?
For the aft standby battery, the manual switch is even farther from the
battery - about six feet of #8 wire.
If the wires (cables) from the battery to the manual switch are fused at the
battery, what is the problem with having the manual switches separated from
the battery location?
If the concern is arching during a crash, it seems to me that as soon as any
arching occured the fuse would blow. What am I missing?
Stan Sutterfield
www.rv-8a.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re Standby Regulator SB1B-14 |
Z-12 should be wired exactly as shown. Normal operations call
for BOTH alternators ON all the time. Automatic changeover and
notification is taken care of by the standby alternator's regulator.
I recommend a progressive transfer DC PWR MASTER switch for the
battery and primary alternator. I've revised Z12 to reflect this
recommendation by showing the 2-10 switch which mimics the opration
of the Cessna (actually, lots of folks use it) split rocker. The updated
Appendix Z is available at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11E.pdf
Revised pages only are:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Z11L.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Z12M.pdf
Bob . . .
>
>
>Hi Bob
>
>I would appreciate if you could help by answering the following.
>
>I have decided to go with your z-12L architecture. Could I use a Cessna type
>master, and switch between Main alternator and standby using the alt switch
>on this master.
>
>This way if overvoltage warning light came on, I could switch over. If
>voltage dropped on the main alternator. The standby would automatically take
>up the slack.
>
>Dave Emond
>#40159
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Batt Sw distance |
Stan;
What I believe you are missing is, in a crash situation with a 200Amp fuse,
as you suggest, there is no guarantee that it would "blow" under "arcing"
conditions. It is quite possible for a fault to occur on your main battery
cable which would arc away happily at 100 or 150 amps, melting sheet
aluminium, and your 200Amp fuse would dutifully supply this fault with all
the energy it requested. In the meantime your ruptured fuel tank has
provided the potential for a complete conflagration. If the fault were truly
a "hard" ground with minimal resistance you're correct that the fuse will
probably open, but what about the "partial" ground having a resistance of
say only 1/10th of an ohm? Ohms law says this fault will draw 120 amps, far
below the value to open your fuse. I would consider 1/10th ohm to be a
pretty good "short" yet it wouldn't open your fuse. Also if you're depending
on the "arc" to open a fuse, will that arc, in the meantime, have ignited
the spilled fuel anyway??? Something to think about. Best to have everything
electrically "dead" BEFORE the wire grounds out or the fuel spills hence the
master relay or switch as close as possible to the battery to minimize what
remains "live".
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: <Speedy11(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Manual Batt Sw distance
>
> I have two battery switches, one for the front (I call it the Main)
battery
> and one for the aft (I call it the Standby) battery. I'm planning a 4AWG
(or
> maybe 6AWG) cable from the main battery to the manual switch (distance of
about
> 22") with a 200A fuse at the battery end. Then from the manual switch
back
> to the battery compartment to attach to the starter contactor. At that
same
> connection to the starter contactor, I would take power to the main bus.
> Is 22" too far from the battery to have manual switches?
> For the aft standby battery, the manual switch is even farther from the
> battery - about six feet of #8 wire.
> If the wires (cables) from the battery to the manual switch are fused at
the
> battery, what is the problem with having the manual switches separated
from
> the battery location?
> If the concern is arching during a crash, it seems to me that as soon as
any
> arching occured the fuse would blow. What am I missing?
> Stan Sutterfield
> www.rv-8a.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Batt Sw distance |
>
>I have two battery switches, one for the front (I call it the Main) battery
>and one for the aft (I call it the Standby) battery. I'm planning a 4AWG (or
>maybe 6AWG) cable from the main battery to the manual switch (distance of
>about
>22") with a 200A fuse at the battery end. Then from the manual switch back
>to the battery compartment to attach to the starter contactor. At that same
>connection to the starter contactor, I would take power to the main bus.
>Is 22" too far from the battery to have manual switches?
>For the aft standby battery, the manual switch is even farther from the
>battery - about six feet of #8 wire.
>If the wires (cables) from the battery to the manual switch are fused at the
>battery, what is the problem with having the manual switches separated from
>the battery location?
>If the concern is arching during a crash, it seems to me that as soon as any
>arching occured the fuse would blow. What am I missing?
The design goals for aircraft battery control have
been to provide positive disconnect of the battery
as close as practical to the battery. For all but
a few production aircraft, these goals suggest the
use of REMOTE switches (contactors) in lieu of
LOCAL switches because the battery(ies) are too
far out of reach of the pilot to make manual switching
practical.
Large limiters (ANL style) are not even close to
the operating speed of what we call "fuses". See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/anl.pdf
These are intended to clear hard faults during system
operation, not limit potential energy available for
crash safety. The battery "fuse" is not a substitute
for local disconnection in case of imminent contact
with the rocks or for being able to make 99.9% of
wiring "cold" with smoke in the cockpit.
You may certainly wire your airplane any way you
wish but be sure your understand the ramifications
for substituting alternative philosophies.
Why the push for manual switches? The battery contactor
weighs 13 oz. A battery switch will be about 5-6 oz and
if you need to add a remote control cable, installed
weight will be on the same order as the battery contactor.
The battery contactor has been with us for a very
long time and has proven to be one of the least problematic
pieces of equipment with respect to cost of ownership.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Ammeter shunt for Van's instrument? |
If I have a 60 amp alternator and use your 60 amp shunt with the standard
Van's 40 amp gauge does a full deflection on the gauge indicate 60
amps? In this senario I could re-mark the indicator to +/- 60 amps and all
is well?
Van's instrument is not a "standard" 50mv full scale device.
It's a 40mv/40A device. This means the shunt is a 50A shunt
in the 50mv world but re-rated to fit his 40 Mv instrument. So, to
make Van's instrument a 60A full scale device, you'll need a
shunt that's 40mv/60A which translates to a 75A shunt in the
50 mV world. I don't have 75A shunts, B&C might have them. I
can probably re-calibrate one of our shunts for your needs
if you can't find one off-the-shelf.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave & Brenda Emond" <d_emond(at)mweb.co.za> |
| Subject: | Re: Re Standby Regulator SB1B-14 |
Bob
Can you please clarify for me. Assuming my RV is wired exaclty like the
Z-12M schematics.
What event/s would cause me to have to switch the 2-10 to battery, from the
batt/Alt position???
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re Standby Regulator SB1B-14
>
>
> Z-12 should be wired exactly as shown. Normal operations call
> for BOTH alternators ON all the time. Automatic changeover and
> notification is taken care of by the standby alternator's regulator.
>
> I recommend a progressive transfer DC PWR MASTER switch for the
> battery and primary alternator. I've revised Z12 to reflect this
> recommendation by showing the 2-10 switch which mimics the opration
> of the Cessna (actually, lots of folks use it) split rocker. The updated
> Appendix Z is available at:
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11E.pdf
>
> Revised pages only are:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Z11L.pdf
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Z12M.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>>
>>
>>Hi Bob
>>
>>I would appreciate if you could help by answering the following.
>>
>>I have decided to go with your z-12L architecture. Could I use a Cessna
>>type
>>master, and switch between Main alternator and standby using the alt
>>switch
>>on this master.
>>
>>This way if overvoltage warning light came on, I could switch over. If
>>voltage dropped on the main alternator. The standby would automatically
>>take
>>up the slack.
>>
>>Dave Emond
>>#40159
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
Carlos, I think a SA 816 $2.00 from Steinair will work for what you want to
do. http://www.steinair.com/switches.htm Connecting the center and bottom
on one side for one power circuit to the DU and AHRS and same on other side
for the other power circuit should bring up both at the same time and allow
the GRT system to pick. Assume you are running the EIS direct to main bus.
Note, this does impose a single point of failure on the switch itself which
could be offset in several ways if you think that's really an issue. I have
the dual display system and will run a separate switch to each DU, AHRS, and
power each from the e-bus and the backup EFIS battery per Z-35.
Hope this helps but realize this is mew to me as well so it may be less than
optimum if you really knew what you were doing :-)
Good Luck
Bill S
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos
Trigo
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire
it
>
snip
> I assume this is the GRT unit
Yes it is
> If you go with ON-OFF-ON you will cause a reboot as
> you switch through power sources
Very well observed! I definetely cannot use the On-Off-On switch...
> and actually defeat the purpose of the multiple power source
> availability.
Also well observed. Going the way I inicially planned to, I would not have
the "automatic" feature of 2 alternative power sources.
> If you switch both sources to the EFIS so that both are on at the
> same time, the EFIS will draw off the higher bus.
> Todd says the system will not allow one bus to drain the other.
> Assuming that to be true, you may not really gain anything from the
> On-Off-On set up.
I agree with you
> Can't remember the switch number but there is one that switches
> both power sources to the EFIS independently in a simple On-Off
> mode and then lets the EFIS pick whichever has the higher voltage.
Now I need again some expert help here. Which is that switch?
> Even simpler, I "think" you could accomplish the same thing with a
> diode in each power feed to a simple on/off toggle.
Expert listers, which is the best way to go?
> In my configuration, I have a separate switch for the DUs and AHRS
> but each switch applies two power sources to the unit and lets it do
> the rest.
I would like to have only one switch applying both power sources to both
units.
Thanks very much Bill
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re Standby Regulator SB1B-14 |
>
>
>Bob
>
>Can you please clarify for me. Assuming my RV is wired exaclty like the
>Z-12M schematics.
>
>What event/s would cause me to have to switch the 2-10 to battery, from the
>batt/Alt position???
If the main alternator has failed . . . you have no way to
deduce exactly why. Procedure is to shut it OFF after the
AUX ALT LOADED warning light comes on.
Also, if you wish to do ground maintenance on the airplane
without the engine running . . . you don't want the field
circuit of the alternator to draw battery current for no
good purpose. You can conduct maintenance in the BAT only
position and relieve the battery of carrying field loads
for a non-rotating alternator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it |
Carlos, minor issue on the switch diagram attached in the other reply.
Assuming you want up to be on, it should be wired center and top and not
center and bottom. Sorry for the confusion. See attached diagram.
Bill S
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos
Trigo
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire
it
>
snip
> I assume this is the GRT unit
Yes it is
> If you go with ON-OFF-ON you will cause a reboot as
> you switch through power sources
Very well observed! I definetely cannot use the On-Off-On switch...
> and actually defeat the purpose of the multiple power source
> availability.
Also well observed. Going the way I inicially planned to, I would not have
the "automatic" feature of 2 alternative power sources.
> If you switch both sources to the EFIS so that both are on at the
> same time, the EFIS will draw off the higher bus.
> Todd says the system will not allow one bus to drain the other.
> Assuming that to be true, you may not really gain anything from the
> On-Off-On set up.
I agree with you
> Can't remember the switch number but there is one that switches
> both power sources to the EFIS independently in a simple On-Off
> mode and then lets the EFIS pick whichever has the higher voltage.
Now I need again some expert help here. Which is that switch?
> Even simpler, I "think" you could accomplish the same thing with a
> diode in each power feed to a simple on/off toggle.
Expert listers, which is the best way to go?
> In my configuration, I have a separate switch for the DUs and AHRS
> but each switch applies two power sources to the unit and lets it do
> the rest.
I would like to have only one switch applying both power sources to both
units.
Thanks very much Bill
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0683 1.0000 -1.5857
Responding to an Avionics-List message previously posted by: "John
Rippengal"
12/28/2005
Hello John, Thanks for your input. By pursuing this issue in some detail I
am trying to avoid the circumstance where a builder discovers too late that
he has created an installation that is a costly nuisance every two years at
IFR cert time. Just "betting on the come" doesn't appeal to me and I assume
that there are other builders that may feel the same way.
<<1) You wrote: "If you have normal pitot and static ports then normal test
equipment can be connected to those ports on the aircraft.">>
The pitot tube and its plumbing should not play a role in the static system
check unless there is a defect inside the airspeed indicator that allows a
leak through between the pitot pressure chamber and the static pressure
chamber in that instrument.
<<2) You wrote: "In anycase the 'on aircraft' test is much preferable since
it checks for leaks and stoppages in the pipework to the pitot/static
system."
The 'on aircraft test' is not just preferable, it is mandatory. See CFR 14
Sec. 91.217 (b) "Unless, as installed, that equipment was tested and
calibrated.....skip....." and CFR 14 Appendix E to Part 43 (c) "....skip...
to ensure that the altitude reporting equipment, altimeters, and ATC
transponders perform their intended functions as installed in the aircraft."
I agree that by far the best circumstance is if the technician agrees to
start the test on plane, has compatible test equipment and encounters no
problems during all phases of the test. But what if after starting the
testing he gets some indeterminate results and can't decide whether it is
the installation, the encoder, or the altimeter that is causing the problem?
The result can be some costly trouble shooting. Whereas if the altimeter and
encoder had been chamber tested by a bench technician prior to the on plane
testing then those two items are eliminated as the source of any problems.
OC
<>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | For Jeff Smith "How did you do that?" |
Jeff ...
How did you display your very fine electrical circuit on Excel? I don't
know of any circuit programs and this one seems to do the job nicely. It
would be great if you could share your knowledge with the entire
aeroelectric list. Your supporting documentation is a sample for us all ...
I've not seen anything like that around here.
Thanks for any help ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A electrical
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Batt Sw distance |
Looking at the ANL data Bob N. provided in his link, it seems there is no prtactical
way to fuse-protect a battery cable, in lieu of a battery contactor, and
have said fuse pass starter current while still providing rapid hard-fault protection.
Too much possibility exists of post-crash arcing and fire when a fuse
is substituted for the battery contactor. This is just the sort of analysis
I was hoping for when I mentioned George's contactor-free wiring proposal last
week. Shedding the weight of the battery contactor would have been nice, but
I guess it presents unacceptable risk. The only other work-around might be
a cable-activated battery disconnect switch, and I'll wager it has nearly the
same all-up weight as the contactor it was meant to replace.
The current winner in my deliberations for a lightweight redundant RV electrical
system is Z-13/8 with the alternator battery lead run straight to the Sky-tec
solenoid terminal, all wired where practical with Eric's FatWire, and the smallest
workable Odyssey battery. It seems to have the best of the best for my
purposes (light weight, all-electric IFR)
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Manual Batt Sw distance
Stan;
What I believe you are missing is, in a crash situation with a 200Amp fuse,
as you suggest, there is no guarantee that it would "blow" under "arcing"
conditions. It is quite possible for a fault to occur on your main battery
cable which would arc away happily at 100 or 150 amps, melting sheet
aluminium, and your 200Amp fuse would dutifully supply this fault with all
the energy it requested. In the meantime your ruptured fuel tank has
provided the potential for a complete conflagration. If the fault were truly
a "hard" ground with minimal resistance you're correct that the fuse will
probably open, but what about the "partial" ground having a resistance of
say only 1/10th of an ohm? Ohms law says this fault will draw 120 amps, far
below the value to open your fuse. I would consider 1/10th ohm to be a
pretty good "short" yet it wouldn't open your fuse. Also if you're depending
on the "arc" to open a fuse, will that arc, in the meantime, have ignited
the spilled fuel anyway??? Something to think about. Best to have everything
electrically "dead" BEFORE the wire grounds out or the fuel spills hence the
master relay or switch as close as possible to the battery to minimize what
remains "live".
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: <Speedy11(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Manual Batt Sw distance
>
> I have two battery switches, one for the front (I call it the Main)
battery
> and one for the aft (I call it the Standby) battery. I'm planning a 4AWG
(or
> maybe 6AWG) cable from the main battery to the manual switch (distance of
about
> 22") with a 200A fuse at the battery end. Then from the manual switch
back
> to the battery compartment to attach to the starter contactor. At that
same
> connection to the starter contactor, I would take power to the main bus.
> Is 22" too far from the battery to have manual switches?
> For the aft standby battery, the manual switch is even farther from the
> battery - about six feet of #8 wire.
> If the wires (cables) from the battery to the manual switch are fused at
the
> battery, what is the problem with having the manual switches separated
from
> the battery location?
> If the concern is arching during a crash, it seems to me that as soon as
any
> arching occured the fuse would blow. What am I missing?
> Stan Sutterfield
> www.rv-8a.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Batt Sw distance |
>
>Looking at the ANL data Bob N. provided in his link, it seems there is no
>prtactical way to fuse-protect a battery cable, in lieu of a battery
>contactor, and have said fuse pass starter current while still providing
>rapid hard-fault protection. Too much possibility exists of post-crash
>arcing and fire when a fuse is substituted for the battery
>contactor. This is just the sort of analysis I was hoping for when I
>mentioned George's contactor-free wiring proposal last week. Shedding the
>weight of the battery contactor would have been nice, but I guess it
>presents unacceptable risk. The only other work-around might be a
>cable-activated battery disconnect switch, and I'll wager it has nearly
>the same all-up weight as the contactor it was meant to replace.
>
>The current winner in my deliberations for a lightweight redundant RV
>electrical system is Z-13/8 with the alternator battery lead run straight
>to the Sky-tec solenoid terminal, all wired where practical with Eric's
>FatWire, and the smallest workable Odyssey battery. It seems to have the
>best of the best for my purposes (light weight, all-electric IFR)
>
>-Stormy
A logical and well reasoned trade-off study.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Battery Cable |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Fault Protection For Rear |
Battery Cable
>
>Bob and everyone else ...
>When considering a ground fault, what is best used to protect a #4 cable
>run, from the rear battery, in an RV, while powering a bus?
>
>What is best used to protect this same #4 cable, when it is in parallel with
>the front battery and charging current is flowing to the rear batt?
>Thanks ...
>Jerry Grimmonpre'
Fat wires in light aircraft are not, as a rule, "protected".
If you study the wiring diagrams for light airplanes going
back to the first generator and battery installations
(mid 40's), things like fuses and circuit breakers do not
appear in the fat feeders. Let's see what the certified guys
design to by reading from FAR23.
Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices.
First, keep in mind that I quote this document only as a means
of illustrating thought processes for crafting the most trouble
free system . . . and in no way am I suggesting that these
words be treated as a "requirement" that should flow down into
the OBAM aircraft community.
(a) Protective devices, such as fuses or circuit breakers, must be
installed in all electrical circuits other than--
(1) Main circuits of starter motors used during starting only; and
(2) Circuits in which no hazard is presented by their omission.
I can tell you that these paragraphs describe the portion of the
architecture you are asking about. Fat feeders in light aircraft
are seldom if ever involved in a hard fault situation because of
the extra care we take in securing such wires and thoughtfulness
for installation to keep them clear of moving parts that might
pose a threat.
When a fat feeder suffers compromised insulation, it's generally
against thin sheet metal and the fault tends to be "self clearing",
i.e., it take a lot of force designed to drive the faulted conductor
to ground such that the conductor is now at-risk for catastrophic
failure due to high currents. Relatively light, passing contacts
tend to burn open with little or no effect on the rest of the system.
(b) A protective device for a circuit essential to flight safety may not be
used to protect any other circuit.
Common sense. A fuse or breaker for every accessory. Don't stack
multiple accessories on a single breaker/fuse whether "essential"
or not. Of course, this begs for a definition of "essential" which
is a topic for a who chapter. The government position on aviation
is to build ever more goodies into the essential category . . .
As I've described in Chapter 17 . . . it's up to YOU to decide
what's "essential" based on your understanding of personal
and mechanical limits based on proposed missions.
(c) Each resettable circuit protective device ("trip free" device in which
the tripping mechanism cannot be overridden by the operating control) must be
designed so that--
(1) A manual operation is required to restore service after tripping; and
(2) If an overload or circuit fault exists, the device will open the
circuit regardless of the position of the operating control.
Common sense.
(d) If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is
essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so
located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight.
Yup, good thing to do. Now, I've suggested for years that there's
no good reason for ANY single piece of equipment to become so
"essential" that it qualifies for special treatment of access to
fuses or breakers. There are hundreds more things that cause
an accessory to fail that DOES NOT open a fuse compared to
failures that DO open a fuse. Focusing on the ability to restore
a fuse or breaker circuit is non-productive. These are
a tiny proportion of all failures and likelihood of getting
a system back by replacing the fuse is nil.
It stands to reason then that if any one SYSTEM is so
desirable, then there had better be a backup SYSTEM.
Once this condition is achieved, there is no reason for
making ANY fuse or breaker accessible in flight.
(e) For fuses identified as replaceable in flight--
(1) There must be one spare of each rating or 50 percent
spare fuses of each rating, whichever is greater; and
(2) The spare fuse(s) must be readily accessible to any
required pilot.
As thoughtful designers and users of OBAM aircraft, we're
able to craft flight systems that completely negate any
reason to observe this requirement . . . we can design
so that there is no need to reach any fuse/breaker because
there are no singular, "essential" systems likely to be
resurrected by replacing a fuse or resetting a breaker.
This is the general answer on circuit protection . . . the
short answer to your specific question is that experience
and common sense have shown that there is no value in
adding "protection" to long battery feeders (other than
the locally situated battery contactor). This includes
the generally smaller but still quite robust feeder from
the cranking circuit to the main bus.
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "simon miles" <simon.miles(at)skynet.be> |
| Subject: | OBAM Satellites? |
Today saw the successful launch of the first satellite (for proof of concept
purposes) of the proposed European Union rival to to GPS - Gallileo. This
satellite was designed and built by a very small company in the UK (Surrey
Satellite Technology -SSTL) for a cost of 19 million GBP (about 33 million
dollars). They took only 30 months to develop their design from
drawing-board to launch.
The company's chief executive explained how they were able to deliver the
600kg satellite in such short timescales:
We specifically make low-cost and quick satellites. What we do is take
advantage of terrestial technologies, such as mobile phones and DVD players.
The consumer market has been leading the investment the investment in
technology. We take these components out of I-Pods and so on, and work out
whether we can fly them in our spacecraft. Sometimes they will, and
sometimes they will not.
Conventional components can take up to15 years to test, by which time they
may be obsolete. Imagine if you bought a PC that was 15 years old.
It's very easy to spend other people's money. If you spend money you earn
yourself you tend to get a lot more innovation and it lasts longer.
So, take another look at your Christmas presents and imagine how they can
improve your aeroplane....
Happy New Year,
Simon Miles.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OBAM Satellites? |
I've belonged to an organization called AMSAT since the mid 70's that has
built and flown numerous amateur satellites. The latest one is a satellite
that is made out of an old Russian space suit. Check out www.AMSAT.org if
you're interested in what can be done by a bunch of guys who want to use
space for the fun of it.
Dave Morris
At 02:18 PM 12/29/2005, you wrote:
>
>Today saw the successful launch of the first satellite (for proof of concept
>purposes) of the proposed European Union rival to to GPS - Gallileo. This
>satellite was designed and built by a very small company in the UK (Surrey
>Satellite Technology -SSTL) for a cost of 19 million GBP (about 33 million
>dollars). They took only 30 months to develop their design from
>drawing-board to launch.
>
>The company's chief executive explained how they were able to deliver the
>600kg satellite in such short timescales:
>
>
>
>We specifically make low-cost and quick satellites. What we do is take
>advantage of terrestial technologies, such as mobile phones and DVD players.
>The consumer market has been leading the investment the investment in
>technology. We take these components out of I-Pods and so on, and work out
>whether we can fly them in our spacecraft. Sometimes they will, and
>sometimes they will not.
>
>Conventional components can take up to15 years to test, by which time they
>may be obsolete. Imagine if you bought a PC that was 15 years old.
>
>It's very easy to spend other people's money. If you spend money you earn
>yourself you tend to get a lot more innovation and it lasts longer.
>
>
>So, take another look at your Christmas presents and imagine how they can
>improve your aeroplane....
>
>Happy New Year,
>
>
>Simon Miles.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | OBAM Satellites? |
And then there is that guy in New Zealand who is building his own cruise
missile:
http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile/
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Morris "BigD"
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OBAM Satellites?
-->
I've belonged to an organization called AMSAT since the mid 70's that has
built and flown numerous amateur satellites. The latest one is a satellite
that is made out of an old Russian space suit. Check out www.AMSAT.org if
you're interested in what can be done by a bunch of guys who want to use
space for the fun of it.
Dave Morris
At 02:18 PM 12/29/2005, you wrote:
>-->
>
>Today saw the successful launch of the first satellite (for proof of
>concept
>purposes) of the proposed European Union rival to to GPS - Gallileo.
>This satellite was designed and built by a very small company in the UK
>(Surrey Satellite Technology -SSTL) for a cost of 19 million GBP (about
>33 million dollars). They took only 30 months to develop their design
>from drawing-board to launch.
>
>The company's chief executive explained how they were able to deliver
>the 600kg satellite in such short timescales:
>
>
>
>We specifically make low-cost and quick satellites. What we do is take
>advantage of terrestial technologies, such as mobile phones and DVD
players.
>The consumer market has been leading the investment the investment in
>technology. We take these components out of I-Pods and so on, and work
>out whether we can fly them in our spacecraft. Sometimes they will, and
>sometimes they will not.
>
>Conventional components can take up to15 years to test, by which time
>they may be obsolete. Imagine if you bought a PC that was 15 years old.
>
>It's very easy to spend other people's money. If you spend money you
>earn yourself you tend to get a lot more innovation and it lasts longer.
>
>
>So, take another look at your Christmas presents and imagine how they
>can improve your aeroplane....
>
>Happy New Year,
>
>
>Simon Miles.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; d=fdic.gov; s=fdic;
c=simple; q=dns; t=1135898885; x=1135985285;
ing;
| Subject: | Circuit Breaker v. Fuse |
| From: | "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers(at)fdic.gov> |
I am wiring my Experimental Mustang II kitplane per Figure Z-12 (single
battery, dual alternator), which calls for a 5-amp circuit breaker to
the alternator field wire for each alternator. The wiring diagram shows
the breaker to be adjacent to the main power distribution bus, which on
my airplane is attached to the firewall (cabin side). It would not do
me much good to have a circuit breaker out of reach down where the power
bus is located, therefore my circuit breakers for the alternator field
wires will be on the instrument panel.
I will run a wire from the power bus up to the circuit breaker, which
should (must) be protected. My question is this. If I use 18 awg wire
with a 10 amp fuse from the power bus up to the 5 amp circuit breaker,
will the 5 amp breaker trip before the 10 amp fuse blows in the event of
a dead short in the wire, such as from a Crowbar OV Module?
I do not want the fuse at the power bus to blow before the circuit
breaker pops, otherwise, the alternator cannot be reset in flight from a
nuisance trip. Somewhere, I read that fuses react faster than circuit
breakers, so I am asking how many more amps does the fuse have to carry
before I can be sure that it will not blow before the 5 amp CB pops.
Any advice will be appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Circuit Breaker v. Fuse |
How about putting a 22 AWG fusible link at your main feed that splices
to the 18 AWG wire feeding your 5 A field breaker? Bob shows this in
the Z diagrams in a few places. Dirt simple and dirt cheap...
D
-------------
Rogers, Bob J. wrote:
>
> I am wiring my Experimental Mustang II kitplane per Figure Z-12 (single
> battery, dual alternator), which calls for a 5-amp circuit breaker to
> the alternator field wire for each alternator. The wiring diagram shows
> the breaker to be adjacent to the main power distribution bus, which on
> my airplane is attached to the firewall (cabin side). It would not do
> me much good to have a circuit breaker out of reach down where the power
> bus is located, therefore my circuit breakers for the alternator field
> wires will be on the instrument panel.
>
> I will run a wire from the power bus up to the circuit breaker, which
> should (must) be protected. My question is this. If I use 18 awg wire
> with a 10 amp fuse from the power bus up to the 5 amp circuit breaker,
> will the 5 amp breaker trip before the 10 amp fuse blows in the event of
> a dead short in the wire, such as from a Crowbar OV Module?
>
> I do not want the fuse at the power bus to blow before the circuit
> breaker pops, otherwise, the alternator cannot be reset in flight from a
> nuisance trip. Somewhere, I read that fuses react faster than circuit
> breakers, so I am asking how many more amps does the fuse have to carry
> before I can be sure that it will not blow before the 5 amp CB pops.
>
> Any advice will be appreciated.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Circuit Breaker v. Fuse |
...snip...
>My question is this. If I use 18 awg wire
>with a 10 amp fuse from the power bus up to the 5 amp circuit breaker,
>will the 5 amp breaker trip before the 10 amp fuse blows in the event of
>a dead short in the wire, such as from a Crowbar OV Module?
>I do not want the fuse at the power bus to blow before the circuit
>breaker pops,
The expectation is that a smaller CB is faster than a bigger one. But be
very careful. You could be wrong.
>Somewhere, I read that fuses react faster than circuit breakers, so I am
>asking how many more amps does the fuse have to carry
>before I can be sure that it will not blow before the 5 amp CB pops.
In general, fuses depend on thermal heating to break and this has some time
lags. Circuit breakes usually do too, but breakers can be magnetic or
electronic and can operate at any speed.
>the alternator cannot be reset in flight from a nuisance trip.
Google " AeroElectric nuisance OR false trips " then decide.
>Any advice will be appreciated.
My advice is don't use a crowbar, then none of this will be an issue.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as
it is, infinite.
--William Blake
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Instrument Panel Labels |
I mentioned some time back that inkjet printers can be used to make decals for
instrument panel switch labels. This is an enabling technology. You can make pictures,
symbols, placards, logos, nose art, enemy flag symbols for your imaginary
combat victories, etc.
Several people have had good success with this....then one person inquired--"What
about white ink?"
I was flumoxed...There must be some somewhere. But I was introduced to the curious
fact that white ink for inkjets simply does not exist. You can get fluorescent
yellow, purple, neon colors, even light gray...but not white.
This took some searching but I located the world's only (!) white inkjet ink made
in large cartridges only for $22k Roland commercial injet printers and bought
some to decant into smaller 15 ml vials. You can buy virgin empty cartridges
for you own inkjet printer and go from there.
Interested parties contact me off-list. The rest will sell on eBay. I don't sell
the other products for this decal-label-inkjet thing, but just Google "inkjet
decals", etc.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"...Beans for supper tonight, six o'clock.
Navy beans cooked in Oklahoma ham...
Got to eat 'em with a spoon, raw onions
and cornbread; nothing else...."
--Will Rogers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fault Protection |
nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Bob, et al.
Bob's post on this is right on the mark, but I would add "ground fault" is
probably a confusing term. Small thing.
I would also like to add that there is a whole field related to "Inherently
Safe Wiring" that involve no fuses or breakers. There are some applications
where fuses and/or breakers would be unsafe, and others where any short in a
wire is so nasty that protecting against it is pointless. (TWA 800). All
this falls under "Inherently-Safe-Wiring" design guidelines.
One of the general principles is that there must be short-circuit sparks so
small they cannot set fire to anything. For gasoline-air mixtures 2.5W seems
to be the upper limit. Anything smaller is inherently safe as long as it
can't provide a ground return for some other non-inherently-safe circuit. So
for 14V airplanes, about 180 milliamps can't cause a problem and no fuse is
necessary--but the wire can't be in the same bundle or in contact with other
wiring. A fuse is not needed, but a resistor to limit the current is needed.
This small a current is useful for memory keep-alives, a few LEDs, alarm
sensors, etc.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid."
-John Wayne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Fault Protection For Rear Battery Cable |
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Fault Protection For Rear Battery
Cable
> Battery Cable
>>
>>Bob and everyone else ...
>>When considering a ground fault, what is best used to protect a #4 cable
>>run, from the rear battery, in an RV, while powering a bus?
>>
>>What is best used to protect this same #4 cable, when it is in parallel
>>with
>>the front battery and charging current is flowing to the rear batt?
>>Thanks ...
>>Jerry Grimmonpre'
. . . the
> short answer to your specific question is that experience
> and common sense have shown that there is no value in
> adding "protection" to long battery feeders (other than
> the locally situated battery contactor). This includes
> the generally smaller but still quite robust feeder from
> the cranking circuit to the main bus.
>
> Bob. . .
Thanks for both the thoroughly expanded answer and the short one as well.
This issue has become a growing hunch that "there is no answer to the threat
of a ground fault except to live with it dude". The fat wire will go in
and hung with care.
Maybe a project opportunity for someone to come up with an electronic DC
volt GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter).
Thanks for your great answer Bob ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Batt Sw distance |
In a message dated 12/29/05 2:59:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
Why the push for manual switches? The battery contactor
weighs 13 oz. A battery switch will be about 5-6 oz and
if you need to add a remote control cable, installed
weight will be on the same order as the battery contactor.
The battery contactor has been with us for a very
long time and has proven to be one of the least problematic
pieces of equipment with respect to cost of ownership
Bob N.,
Points well taken. I think I'll switch back to contactors at the battery.
Stan Sutterfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
Hi all ...
How many OBAM electricians have used the PC based software to draw their
wiring diagrams?
I'm interested in finding out what you have found and reccomend, don't
recomend, like alot or any comments about they are easy to use or not easy.
Or is all the PC based stuff a waste of time?
I see some on ebay, new ones, outdated programs, cheap and not one bidder
... why is that?
Any help appreciated ... thanks alot,
Jerry Grimmonpre'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
I know Bob has his favorite and even ships a copy with his AeroElectric
CD. But anybody who has gotten used to Windows or Macintosh graphical user
interfaces (or any drawing programs such as CorelDraw or Visio) will hate
the black screen DOS type UI, and I searched high and low for a better,
more user-friendly, Windows-like program specifically designed for drawing
schematics.
After installing and trying many different ones and throwing them all out,
I finally found DesignWorks Lite from Capilano Computing for $39.95. I
bought it a few years ago and have never looked back. It works intuitively
the way a CAD program should. You can design your own components if the
switch or relay or gadget you need doesn't exist in one of their libraries.
Here's a schematic I did with it:
http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Electrical/N75UP-Schematic-June2005.pdf
Here's their web site: http://www.capilano.com/
I highly recommend it for ease of use in drawing schematics.
Dave Morris
At 10:04 PM 12/29/2005, you wrote:
>
>Hi all ...
>How many OBAM electricians have used the PC based software to draw their
>wiring diagrams?
>I'm interested in finding out what you have found and reccomend, don't
>recomend, like alot or any comments about they are easy to use or not easy.
>Or is all the PC based stuff a waste of time?
>I see some on ebay, new ones, outdated programs, cheap and not one bidder
>... why is that?
>Any help appreciated ... thanks alot,
>Jerry Grimmonpre'
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Circuit Breaker v. Fuse |
>
>I am wiring my Experimental Mustang II kitplane per Figure Z-12 (single
>battery, dual alternator), which calls for a 5-amp circuit breaker to
>the alternator field wire for each alternator. The wiring diagram shows
>the breaker to be adjacent to the main power distribution bus, which on
>my airplane is attached to the firewall (cabin side). It would not do
>me much good to have a circuit breaker out of reach down where the power
>bus is located, therefore my circuit breakers for the alternator field
>wires will be on the instrument panel.
>
>I will run a wire from the power bus up to the circuit breaker, which
>should (must) be protected. My question is this. If I use 18 awg wire
>with a 10 amp fuse from the power bus up to the 5 amp circuit breaker,
>will the 5 amp breaker trip before the 10 amp fuse blows in the event of
>a dead short in the wire, such as from a Crowbar OV Module?
>
>I do not want the fuse at the power bus to blow before the circuit
>breaker pops, otherwise, the alternator cannot be reset in flight from a
>nuisance trip. Somewhere, I read that fuses react faster than circuit
>breakers, so I am asking how many more amps does the fuse have to carry
>before I can be sure that it will not blow before the 5 amp CB pops.
Z-12 shows breaker panel busses where the "extension" is
unnecessary. Z-11 illustrates how the breakers may be mounted
next to the DC power master switches by use of fusible links
in the extensions to the alternator field supply breakers.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
Thanks Dave ...
Your schematic looks good and I like the symbol readability. I will
consider this a candidate.
Also thanks for the link to their site ...
Regards,
Jerry Grimmonpre'
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Diagrams Design Software
>
> After installing and trying many different ones and throwing them all out,
> I finally found DesignWorks Lite from Capilano Computing for $39.95. I
> bought it a few years ago and have never looked back. It works
> intuitively
> the way a CAD program should. You can design your own components if the
> switch or relay or gadget you need doesn't exist in one of their
> libraries.
>
> Here's a schematic I did with it:
> http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Electrical/N75UP-Schematic-June2005.pdf
> Here's their web site: http://www.capilano.com/
>
> I highly recommend it for ease of use in drawing schematics.
>
> Dave Morris
>
>
> At 10:04 PM 12/29/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>Hi all ...
>>How many OBAM electricians have used the PC based software to draw their
>>wiring diagrams?
>>I'm interested in finding out what you have found and reccomend, don't
>>recomend, like alot or any comments about they are easy to use or not
>>easy.
>>Or is all the PC based stuff a waste of time?
>>I see some on ebay, new ones, outdated programs, cheap and not one bidder
>>... why is that?
>>Any help appreciated ... thanks alot,
>>Jerry Grimmonpre'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
I use AutoCAD LT. But that is mainly because I use it at work and am
familiar with it. It isn't really intended for schematic work, although
it can certainly do that. Basically, AutoCAD is great for drawing
lines, rectangles, text, etc. as separate entities. What it won't do is
move a part and bring the connections along with it (called
rubberbanding for those who do schematics and layouts with software
intended for that function).
I made up a Wirebook similar to what Bob has on his site (in fact I
"stole" the basic page form from there). I also use it to design any
special brackets, parts, etc. that I need for the plane.
Unfortunately, a new copy is well over $600 for the LT version and lots
more for the full version. I purchased my copy in 1998 when it was a
little more reasonable and haven't upgraded since. A cheaper
alternative that will do the same thing (and can read and write AutoCAD
files) is TurboCAD. I think that Bob also has an old copy of AutoCAD
somewhere on the web site - who knows, his obsolete copy may be newer
than mine :-) .
I tried Visio (again an old copy I have had for some years) and it
wasn't quite as friendly, at least to me, as AutoCAD but had some
attributes that AutoCAD didn't.
I use Eagle (www.cadsoftusa.com) to do electronics schematics for any
PCB designs I do for anything for my plane. It is specific to doing
schematics and and PCB layouts (and is free for home use) but I found it
easier to use AutoCAD to create new parts - plus there are predrawn
parts available from Bob and other sources. for AutoCAD. But you cannot
beat the price - free! I actually have the professional version but the
free version is really only limited in the layout portion, not the
schematic portion.
I am not really competent to judge which is "easier" since I already
knew how to use all these programs, but I don't think any of them is
really too hard to learn for someone that is constructing an airplane.
The main advantage to PC based tools is that once you have drawn one
switch (relay, etc.) you just make copies of it and if you want to add a
part you can just move a few things and make room. If you use paper and
pencil, you have to draw each switch, etc. and if you need to add a part
and there is not room you get to redraw that page.
..
Dick Tasker
Jerry Grimmonpre wrote:
>
>Hi all ...
>How many OBAM electricians have used the PC based software to draw their
>wiring diagrams?
>I'm interested in finding out what you have found and reccomend, don't
>recomend, like alot or any comments about they are easy to use or not easy.
>Or is all the PC based stuff a waste of time?
>I see some on ebay, new ones, outdated programs, cheap and not one bidder
>... why is that?
>Any help appreciated ... thanks alot,
>Jerry Grimmonpre'
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SMITHBKN(at)aol.com |
Fellow Listers,
I was asked by someone on the group to share how I developed my wiring
diagram using Excel rather than one of the software programs dedicated to things
electrical. I use Excel a fair amount at work so I am pretty familiar with
it. Most people think of Excel as a spreadsheet and number cruncher, but it
has some basic graphic/drawing capabilities too.
I simply used the basic drawing capabilities in Excel, drew up various
components using standard shapes to create an inventory of things like lamps,
relays, switches, etc. and then started to use them in the design of my system
which is patterened off of one of the Z-diagrams so graciously provided by Bob.
What accompanies the system diagram in my Excel file is a component list, a
wiring spec sheet (shows size, type, and terminations of each wire), a load
analysis, and a few others worksheets for misc. things like switch layout, buss
loads, etc.
In this manner I have everything electrical for my RV-7A project in one
program and all spreadsheets are linked to one other so that changes get
propogated through the system appropriately.
I've posted a slimmed down version of my files on the Matronics File/Photo
share site in an attempt to get some peer reviews of my system since I'm
actually a rookie as things electrical. If the files and use of Excel have a
benefit to others in the group .... great. I would like to be able to give
something back to those that have helped me along.
Jeff Smith
Knoxville, TN
RV-7A .... electrical
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | White on black placards |
There was some discussion earlier this week on cheap-n-dirty
white on black placarding. Here's a picture of a placard
I did for a client's project. The placard was laid out in
Photoshop as black on white then reversed (most photo editing
programs will let you do this). The placard was printed on
a laserjet (nice black carboin toner), trimmed and laminated.
Sams Clubs and many internet stores have low cost laminators.
Having lots of small lamination materials around is easy too . . .
the materials kits have an assortment of sizes and except for
my placarding jobs, I would have an overflow of the seldom
used smaller sizes.
These are quite sharp and very thin. They're installed with
adhesive transfer tape available from office supplies, art
supplies and photography materials stores.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/White_on_Black_Placard.jpg
When mounted on a black or grey panel, the sealing edge
around the placard all but disappears.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Just a minor point is that in addition to the drawing capabilities in Excel,
later versions have a "Flow Chart" library built in under the AutoShapes
menu. It allows you to select various shapes and line styles and connect
points using several different kind of connecting lines very similar to
Visio or other high end flow chart programs. I find it very handy as it
allows you to move shapes and the connecting lines are moved with them. For
example, if you choose the diamond shape, you can attach lines to any of the
four points and then simply drag the shape where you want it and the lines
automatically refresh in the new location. This is real handy after you
have spent a lot of time and just want to move something around to make the
diagram clear. Play with it a little bit. Get the lines off the custom
drawing menu.
For some reason, the connecting lines are not shown in the Flow Chart window
that pops up under AutoShapes but if go to customize the tool bar and then
look under the AutoShapes tools, you can drag all kinds of connecting lines
to the visible tool bar. By connecting, I mean that the shapes all have
connecting points where the lines physically attach. I know this isn't clear
if you're not Excel'ish but if someone wants the detail, I can send a screen
shot that will make it more obvious.
My .02
Bill S
7a Ark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
SMITHBKN(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Diagrams
Fellow Listers,
I was asked by someone on the group to share how I developed my wiring
diagram using Excel rather than one of the software programs dedicated to
things
electrical. I use Excel a fair amount at work so I am pretty familiar with
it. Most people think of Excel as a spreadsheet and number cruncher, but
it
has some basic graphic/drawing capabilities too.
I simply used the basic drawing capabilities in Excel, drew up various
components using standard shapes to create an inventory of things like
lamps,
relays, switches, etc. and then started to use them in the design of my
system
which is patterened off of one of the Z-diagrams so graciously provided by
Bob.
What accompanies the system diagram in my Excel file is a component list, a
wiring spec sheet (shows size, type, and terminations of each wire), a load
analysis, and a few others worksheets for misc. things like switch layout,
buss
loads, etc.
In this manner I have everything electrical for my RV-7A project in one
program and all spreadsheets are linked to one other so that changes get
propogated through the system appropriately.
I've posted a slimmed down version of my files on the Matronics File/Photo
share site in an attempt to get some peer reviews of my system since I'm
actually a rookie as things electrical. If the files and use of Excel have
a
benefit to others in the group .... great. I would like to be able to give
something back to those that have helped me along.
Jeff Smith
Knoxville, TN
RV-7A .... electrical
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. |
Emailed to jim(at)canadianaeromanufacturing.com on 12/30/05
Good afternoon sir,
By way of introduction, I'm currently an electrical engineer
for Raytheon Aircraft (Beech) in Wichita, KS. I've been professionally
associated with aircraft electrics and electronics off and on for
about 44 years.
I have a hobby business that supports the owner built and maintained
aircraft business based from my website at http://aeroelectric.com
I publish a book and conduct educational seminars for OBAM aircraft
community. I also participate in an electrical/avionics list-server
(forum) on matronics.com called the AeroElectric List.
Subscribers to the AeroElectric-List have on several occasions made
note of a paragraph in the installation instructions for your 40A
alternator which I quote . . .
"Conditions in which a very high draw is being made of the alternator at
low RPM will cause extra
strain on the alternator and drive belt. Consider reducing the total
load in these situations, or
switching the alternator off and drawing from the battery only, if the
high load will be brief."
I'm mystified by this assertion. Can you help me in assisting your
customer's understanding of the physics that makes this operating
philosophy useful? I'm wondering as to the magnitude of "extra strain"
over and above those conditions for which the alternator was designed
to operate. Can you give me the conditions for load and rpm at which
alternator torque is maximum under it's normal operating modes.
I'd like to understand how high and for how long any mis-operation of the
alternator by the pilot can exceed this value and by how much.
Can you enlighten me as to which components of the alternator
are at-risk and by what magnitude? In other words, what can the
operator expect in terms of extended service life of the alternator
or belt by observing this operating protocol?
I'm also curious as to what is meant by "low RPM" . . . Can you
put a number on this? I presume you can give me the number in shaft
RPMs of the alternator so that the owner/operator can accurately
deduce the corresponding engine RPM for his particular installation.
I believe the future of light aircraft in general aviation is
firmly rooted and highly dependent upon the OBAM aircraft industry.
Your willingness to support this important segment of general
aviation with quality products is much appreciated. If there's
any way I might assist you in this endeavor, please let me know!
In the mean time, it would be very helpful for me to understand your
product better so that I might accurately advise your customers
who post questions to the AeroElectric List.
Happy new year!
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dsvs(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Use Of Diode on S704-1 Relay |
Hi Bob,
On Diagram z-32 you show a diode between the coil wires on the S704 relay. On
Z-13/8 the S704 that is used in the alternate alternator circuit has an OVM-14
but no diiode. Will you explain why there is no diode present in one circuit
and there is one present in the other? Does the OVM-14 negate the need for the
diode? Thanks. Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Instrument Panel Labels |
As a side note the labeling products like the Brother P-touch line offer
white-on-black tapes:
http://www.brothermall.com/accessory_detail.asp?mscssid=8C857699C5A547888C58
CEF27C70BD68&sku=TZ335&dept_id=167
Tapes of all colors are available in widths up to 3/4". The labelers can
"stack" lines across the width of the tape.
Other color combinations offered are black-on-clear, black-on-white,
red-on-white, gold-on-black and black-on-yellow.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M.
Jones
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument Panel Labels
-->
I mentioned some time back that inkjet printers can be used to make decals
for instrument panel switch labels. This is an enabling technology. You can
make pictures, symbols, placards, logos, nose art, enemy flag symbols for
your imaginary combat victories, etc.
Several people have had good success with this....then one person
inquired--"What about white ink?"
I was flumoxed...There must be some somewhere. But I was introduced to the
curious fact that white ink for inkjets simply does not exist. You can get
fluorescent yellow, purple, neon colors, even light gray...but not white.
This took some searching but I located the world's only (!) white inkjet ink
made in large cartridges only for $22k Roland commercial injet printers and
bought some to decant into smaller 15 ml vials. You can buy virgin empty
cartridges for you own inkjet printer and go from there.
Interested parties contact me off-list. The rest will sell on eBay. I don't
sell the other products for this decal-label-inkjet thing, but just Google
"inkjet decals", etc.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"...Beans for supper tonight, six o'clock.
Navy beans cooked in Oklahoma ham...
Got to eat 'em with a spoon, raw onions
and cornbread; nothing else...."
--Will Rogers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument Panel Labels |
Don't forget my favourite "white on clear tape"
Looks good on my gray panel although the idea of doing more complex
printer graphics in interesting.
Ken
Craig Payne wrote:
>
>As a side note the labeling products like the Brother P-touch line offer
>white-on-black tapes:
>
>http://www.brothermall.com/accessory_detail.asp?mscssid=8C857699C5A547888C58
>CEF27C70BD68&sku=TZ335&dept_id=167
>
>Tapes of all colors are available in widths up to 3/4". The labelers can
>"stack" lines across the width of the tape.
>
>Other color combinations offered are black-on-clear, black-on-white,
>red-on-white, gold-on-black and black-on-yellow.
>
>-- Craig
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Riggs <riggs_la(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams |
Jeff,
Do you have an address for where you posted your excel files?
I've posted a slimmed down version of my files on the Matronics File/Photo
share site in an attempt to get some peer reviews of my system since I'm
actually a rookie as things electrical. If the files and use of Excel have a
benefit to others in the group .... great. I would like to be able to give
something back to those that have helped me along.
Jeff Smith
Knoxville, TN
RV-7A .... electrical
Lynn A. Riggs
riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
St. Paul, MN
BH #656 Kit #22
http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the
people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only
safe depositories." -- Thomas Jefferson
---------------------------------
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | Instrument Panel Labels |
The P-touch itself can also frame the text with a rectangle with rounded
corners. And it offers the conventional effects like multiple fonts, font
size, bold, italic and underline. This is for my basic PT-1800 labeler. The
PT-1500PC connects to you computer and can do much more - just about
anything you can draw or type on your computer. It goes for about $80.
http://www.advizia.com/brother/modelDetail.asp?PkgID=382265&User=ptouch&Rnd817
-- Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Bill Schlatterer ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Bill Schlatterer
Lists: AeroElectric-List
Subject: Excel Tools for drawing electrical schematics.
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net.12.30.2005/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Circuit Breaker v. Fuse |
>
>
>...snip...
> >My question is this. If I use 18 awg wire
> >with a 10 amp fuse from the power bus up to the 5 amp circuit breaker,
> >will the 5 amp breaker trip before the 10 amp fuse blows in the event of
> >a dead short in the wire, such as from a Crowbar OV Module?
>
> >I do not want the fuse at the power bus to blow before the circuit
> >breaker pops,
>
>The expectation is that a smaller CB is faster than a bigger one. But be
>very careful. You could be wrong.
>
> >Somewhere, I read that fuses react faster than circuit breakers, so I am
> >asking how many more amps does the fuse have to carry
> >before I can be sure that it will not blow before the 5 amp CB pops.
>
>In general, fuses depend on thermal heating to break and this has some time
>lags. Circuit breakes usually do too, but breakers can be magnetic or
>electronic and can operate at any speed.
>
> >the alternator cannot be reset in flight from a nuisance trip.
>
>Google " AeroElectric nuisance OR false trips " then decide.
>
> >Any advice will be appreciated.
>
>My advice is don't use a crowbar, then none of this will be an issue.
How is this useful? I did Google the phrases you suggested
and got the full dump of most of the threads on the topic
that were posted on this list server.
There has never been an argument that some combinations of
the AeroElectric/B&C ov protection systems needed tweaking.
Much has been made of a handful of individuals who CLAIM to
have had a lot of trouble but declined to take us up on our
100% satisfaction guarantee for refund on materials unsuited
to the buyer's wants/needs.
I made an offer right here on the list to refund the purchase
price of any crowbar ov product purchased from me along with
a bonus of $50. Gee, you'd think that at least one unhappy
customer would come forward to claim his $85 prize. I spent
hours of research for hard data to back up the engineering
choices on our product and received nothing back but blue
smoke and mud balls.
Nothing is mentioned about failures in the Van's alternator
installations being just as susceptible to the load-dump
damage irrespective of what type of ov protection is offered . . .
but lots of inferences that figure Z-24 was the root cause
of the failures and was to be avoided. I note that
Niagra Airparts is offering an ov protection system for their
40A alternator installation. See:
http://www.niagaraairparts.com/ASP101-PIT%201.pdf
Hmmmm . . . amazing similar to Z-24 . . . do you suppose that
an owner/builder could blow up his alternator with this
system too?
Nothing is said in these threads or other on-line discussions
about the thousands of systems flying for nearly 20 years in
OBAM aircraft and now probably over 1000 systems flying in
type certificated aircraft. The only words speaking to our
demonstrated willingness to fix what ever problems do arise
came from myself. I only wish some of the multi$kilo$
systems I wrestle with on bizjets had so high a field
service record as the crowbar ov system we've sold to GA
light aircraft.
If you're suggesting that a prudent buying decision can
be made based on the search terms you've suggested . . .
well . . . the dearth of logic in this advice is self
evident. You've ridden this horse to death sir. Give it
up.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Switch Washers/ugly hole |
I have a suggestion that works for me and wanted to pass it on to the list.
I did not want to drill a 1/8" hole above the Switch hole for cosmetic
reasons. What I suggest is to sharpen to a small point the part of the
washer that is against the back of your panel with just enough of a point to
press into the back of the panel. This will keep all things from turning and
you won't have the exposed hole. I used carbon fibre sheet for the panel and
it works fine, should work with any other material also.
Ron Triano
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Circuit Breaker v. Fuse
>
>
>...snip...
> >My question is this. If I use 18 awg wire
> >with a 10 amp fuse from the power bus up to the 5 amp circuit breaker,
> >will the 5 amp breaker trip before the 10 amp fuse blows in the event of
> >a dead short in the wire, such as from a Crowbar OV Module?
>
> >I do not want the fuse at the power bus to blow before the circuit
> >breaker pops,
>
>The expectation is that a smaller CB is faster than a bigger one. But be
>very careful. You could be wrong.
>
> >Somewhere, I read that fuses react faster than circuit breakers, so I am
> >asking how many more amps does the fuse have to carry
> >before I can be sure that it will not blow before the 5 amp CB pops.
>
>In general, fuses depend on thermal heating to break and this has some time
>lags. Circuit breakes usually do too, but breakers can be magnetic or
>electronic and can operate at any speed.
>
> >the alternator cannot be reset in flight from a nuisance trip.
>
>Google " AeroElectric nuisance OR false trips " then decide.
>
> >Any advice will be appreciated.
>
>My advice is don't use a crowbar, then none of this will be an issue.
How is this useful? I did Google the phrases you suggested
and got the full dump of most of the threads on the topic
that were posted on this list server.
There has never been an argument that some combinations of
the AeroElectric/B&C ov protection systems needed tweaking.
Much has been made of a handful of individuals who CLAIM to
have had a lot of trouble but declined to take us up on our
100% satisfaction guarantee for refund on materials unsuited
to the buyer's wants/needs.
I made an offer right here on the list to refund the purchase
price of any crowbar ov product purchased from me along with
a bonus of $50. Gee, you'd think that at least one unhappy
customer would come forward to claim his $85 prize. I spent
hours of research for hard data to back up the engineering
choices on our product and received nothing back but blue
smoke and mud balls.
Nothing is mentioned about failures in the Van's alternator
installations being just as susceptible to the load-dump
damage irrespective of what type of ov protection is offered . . .
but lots of inferences that figure Z-24 was the root cause
of the failures and was to be avoided. I note that
Niagra Airparts is offering an ov protection system for their
40A alternator installation. See:
http://www.niagaraairparts.com/ASP101-PIT%201.pdf
Hmmmm . . . amazing similar to Z-24 . . . do you suppose that
an owner/builder could blow up his alternator with this
system too?
Nothing is said in these threads or other on-line discussions
about the thousands of systems flying for nearly 20 years in
OBAM aircraft and now probably over 1000 systems flying in
type certificated aircraft. The only words speaking to our
demonstrated willingness to fix what ever problems do arise
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR Requirements/Ambiguity |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.4620 1.0000 0.0000
12/31/2005
Hello Ken Thomas (Virken), Thank you for a very interesting email (copied
below).
I will attempt to answer in pieces, but let me start with a summary answer:
"As long as your amateur built experimental aircraft is in compliance with
its Operating Limitations (which includes references to complying with
FAR's) and the instructions in the current version of the AIM you are legal
to fly IFR with no further aircraft approval or paperwork from the FAA."
<<1) You wrote: "In reading the airworthiness certificate and the airframe
sign-off from the
FSDO, I see no verbiage like you listed below in "Operating Limitations".
The signoff simply says the FSDO issued an "...experimental Airworthiness
Certificate in the Amateur Built category, in accordance with FAR
21.191(g)..." So I'm wondering...1. is something missing, or am I "good to
go" as you indicated below that a specific signoff for IFR is
unnecessary">>
Something may be missing. By "airframe sign-off" do you mean the entry in
the aircraft log book that is made by the inspector at the time of the
initial inspection? If that is all that you have in addition to the pink
original FAA Form 8130-7 Special Airworthiness Certificate then you are
missing the Operating Limitations portion of the Special Airworthiness
Certificate that should have accompanied the original Form 8130-7
certificate when it was issued.
If in fact the Operating Limitations for your aircraft is missing you should
try to obtain a copy from either the person you bought the airplane from or
the FSDO that issued the orginal airworthiness certificate. Both the Form
8130-7 Certificate and the Operating Limitations, which is considered part
of the certificate, are to be carried in the aircraft at all times.
If you have the Operating Limitations, but paragraph 7 regarding "day VFR
only unless appropriately equipped in accordance with 91.205" is missing
then I don't see any prohibition against IFR flight for your aircraft if it
is properly equipped. I say this because the FARs are written in prohibition
form "...no person may unless xxxxxx" rather than permissable form. If
something is not prohibited then its OK to do it.
A specific "IFR signoff" for your amateur built experimental aircraft is not
required.
<<2) You wrote: "2. there's also ambiguity around whether an "IFR Approach
Certified GPS" is
required for GPS approaches; I read the statement from the EAA and it wasn't
explicit, and it also noted that none of the equipment needs to be TSO'd.
Well, if that's the case, then why would you need a TSO'd IFR GPS (which I
believe is the only way they make them). Do you know the answer here?">>
You are beginning to mix together different issues above. Let me try to sort
them out.
<<"there's also ambiguity around whether an "IFR Approach Certified GPS" is
required for GPS approaches;">>
This issue is not related to whether the aircraft involved is type
certificated or an amateur built experimental. You can go to paragraph
1-1-19. d. of the current version of the AIM on the FAA web site and read
the requirements for yourself. No need to depend upon hearsay, rumor, or
gossip.
<<"I read the statement from the EAA and it wasn't explicit, and it also
noted that none of the equipment needs to be TSO'd.">>
Yes and no. Since there are no published certification standards for amateur
built experimental aircraft there is no need for installed equipment,
instruments, or avionics to meet FAA TSO requirements. That is true of most
items on an amateur built experimental aircraft, but, and this is a huge
but, there are certain items in any aircraft, type certificated or amateur
built experimental, that must interface with other aircraft or other parts
of the ATC system.
Some examples are transponders, ELTs, communication radio I only wish some of the
multi$kilo$
systems I wrestle with on bizjets had so high a field
service record as the crowbar ov system we've sold to GA
light aircraft.
If you're suggesting that a prudent buying decision can
be made based on the search terms you've suggested . . .
well . . . the dearth of logic in this advice is self
evident. You've ridden this horse to death sir. Give it
up.
Bob . . .
s, and GPS. One is
permitted to have non FAA TSO'd equipment for these kinds of items, but the
regulations, the TSO itself, or AIM say in some cases that certain items
must comply with FAA TSO requirements. That means that you could go build
your own, but the FAA has the right to ask you to prove that it meets the
FAA TSO requirements. Since that would be a very demanding thing to do the
logical path for most people is to just buy and install a FAA TSO'd item for
those items that are specifically required to meet FAA TSO requirements. A
careful reading of the FARs or the AIM may be required to determine which
items fall into that category.
<<"Well, if that's the case, then why would you need a TSO'd IFR GPS (which
I
believe is the only way they make them). Do you know the answer here?">>
You need an FAA TSO'd IFR GPS, or a GPS that you can prove meets that FAA
TSO requirements for any aircraft, type certificated or amateur built
experimental, in order to fly IFR GPS because the AIM says that you do.
"AIM 1-1-19. d. General Requirements 1. Authorization to conduct any GPS
operation under IFR requires that: (a) GPS navigation equipment used must be
approved in accordance with the requirements specified in Technical Standard
Order (TSO) TSO-C129, or equivalent............."
OC
PS: What is a Virken? Sounds like it might be related to the Gherkin pickle.
----- Original Message -----
From: "ken thomas" <virken(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: IFR Requirements/Ambiguity
> Hello OC,
>
> I read with interest your post (reproduced below) re. equipping an
> experimental aircraft for IFR application, and I'm hoping you can help to
> resolve some remaining ambiguity. Thank you for giving it a shot :)
>
> I purchased a completed Glastar experimental aircraft equipped with a
> navcom and indicator making it suitable for vor/localizer approaches, and
> I added marker beacons/audio panel, a 2nd navcom, and a Lowrance GPS. It
> also has a full compliment of steam gauges and other systems required for
> IFR flight.
>
> In reading the airworthiness certificate and the airframe sign-off from
> the FSDO, I see no verbiage like you listed below in "Operating
> Limitations". The signoff simply says the FSDO issued an "...experimental
> Airworthiness Certificate in the Amateur Built category, in accordance
> with FAR 21.191(g)..."
>
> So I'm wondering...
> 1. is something missing, or am I "good to go" as you indicated below that
> a specific signoff for IFR is unnecessary
>
> 2. there's also ambiguity around whether an "IFR Approach Certified GPS"
> is required for GPS approaches; I read the statement from the EAA and it
> wasn't explicit, and it also noted that none of the equipment needs to be
> TSO'd. Well, if that's the case, then why would you need a TSO'd IFR GPS
> (which I believe is the only way they make them). Do you know the answer
> here?
>
> Thank you in advance for any clarity you can provide.
>
> Virken
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. |
Bob, you are a leading edge kind of guy It is nice to be able to listen
in on your discussions. I used to acquire additional knowledge while working
at the airline but as you might imagine airlines are turning into parts
changers (LRU) and some of the depth of understanding is lost. Thanks David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | RE: Switch Washers/ugly hole |
Another way is to forget the washer and put a dab of RTV on the back/side of
the switch after it's tight.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Switch Washers/ugly hole
I have a suggestion that works for me and wanted to pass it on to the list.
I did not want to drill a 1/8" hole above the Switch hole for cosmetic
reasons. What I suggest is to sharpen to a small point the part of the
washer that is against the back of your panel with just enough of a point to
press into the back of the panel. This will keep all things from turning and
you won't have the exposed hole. I used carbon fibre sheet for the panel and
it works fine, should work with any other material also.
Ron Triano
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Circuit Breaker v. Fuse
>
>
>...snip...
> >My question is this. If I use 18 awg wire
> >with a 10 amp fuse from the power bus up to the 5 amp circuit breaker,
> >will the 5 amp breaker trip before the 10 amp fuse blows in the event of
> >a dead short in the wire, such as from a Crowbar OV Module?
>
> >I do not want the fuse at the power bus to blow before the circuit
> >breaker pops,
>
>The expectation is that a smaller CB is faster than a bigger one. But be
>very careful. You could be wrong.
>
> >Somewhere, I read that fuses react faster than circuit breakers, so I am
> >asking how many more amps does the fuse have to carry
> >before I can be sure that it will not blow before the 5 amp CB pops.
>
>In general, fuses depend on thermal heating to break and this has some time
>lags. Circuit breakes usually do too, but breakers can be magnetic or
>electronic and can operate at any speed.
>
> >the alternator cannot be reset in flight from a nuisance trip.
>
>Google " AeroElectric nuisance OR false trips " then decide.
>
> >Any advice will be appreciated.
>
>My advice is don't use a crowbar, then none of this will be an issue.
How is this useful? I did Google the phrases you suggested
and got the full dump of most of the threads on the topic
that were posted on this list server.
There has never been an argument that some combinations of
the AeroElectric/B&C ov protection systems needed tweaking.
Much has been made of a handful of individuals who CLAIM to
have had a lot of trouble but declined to take us up on our
100% satisfaction guarantee for refund on materials unsuited
to the buyer's wants/needs.
I made an offer right here on the list to refund the purchase
price of any crowbar ov product purchased from me along with
a bonus of $50. Gee, you'd think that at least one unhappy
customer would come forward to claim his $85 prize. I spent
hours of research for hard data to back up the engineering
choices on our product and received nothing back but blue
smoke and mud balls.
Nothing is mentioned about failures in the Van's alternator
installations being just as susceptible to the load-dump
damage irrespective of what type of ov protection is offered . . .
but lots of inferences that figure Z-24 was the root cause
of the failures and was to be avoided. I note that
Niagra Airparts is offering an ov protection system for their
40A alternator installation. See:
http://www.niagaraairparts.com/ASP101-PIT%201.pdf
Hmmmm . . . amazing similar to Z-24 . . . do you suppose that
an owner/builder could blow up his alternator with this
system too?
Nothing is said in these threads or other on-line discussions
about the thousands of systems flying for nearly 20 years in
OBAM aircraft and now probably over 1000 systems flying in
type certificated aircraft. The only words speaking to our
demonstrated willingness to fix what ever problems do arise
came from myself. I only wish some of the multi$kilo$
systems I wrestle with on bizjets had so high a field
service record as the crowbar ov system we've sold to GA
light aircraft.
If you're suggesting that a prudent buying decision can
be made based on the search terms you've suggested . . .
well . . . the dearth of logic in this advice is self
evident. You've ridden this horse to death sir. Give it
up.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams |
Hi Jeff
Thank you for sharing your excel schematics. I was hoping that I could
copy entire components in one step but I guess not. The wires don't
follow the components when I move them either. Might be my old Excel97
version as the wires do follow when I make up my own diagrams as per the
wee tutorial that Bill posted. I'll play some more.
Anyway, take a look at your starter engaged light. It looks to be in
series with the ground path for the starter solenoid whereas you
probably intended to show it in parallel with the starter and then using
a separate ground for the solenoid. You wouldn't want the light in
series as it would interfere with the solenoid operation.
FWIW I also noticed that you spec a 3 position progressive switch for
the battery/Alt switch but the diagram seems to show a two position
switch. The two position switch is cheaper and will work just fine
UNLESS your intention is to be able to disconnect the alternator IGN
terminal with the engine running in hopes of shutting off the
alternator. If so, you'd certainly want to keep the battery master
engaged while doing that, which would be a reason to use a progressive
switch there.
Ken
SMITHBKN(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>Fellow Listers,
>
>I was asked by someone on the group to share how I developed my wiring
>diagram using Excel rather than one of the software programs dedicated to things
>electrical. I use Excel a fair amount at work so I am pretty familiar with
>it. Most people think of Excel as a spreadsheet and number cruncher, but it
>has some basic graphic/drawing capabilities too.
>
>I simply used the basic drawing capabilities in Excel, drew up various
>components using standard shapes to create an inventory of things like lamps,
>relays, switches, etc. and then started to use them in the design of my system
>which is patterened off of one of the Z-diagrams so graciously provided by Bob.
>
>What accompanies the system diagram in my Excel file is a component list, a
>wiring spec sheet (shows size, type, and terminations of each wire), a load
>analysis, and a few others worksheets for misc. things like switch layout, buss
> loads, etc.
>
>In this manner I have everything electrical for my RV-7A project in one
>program and all spreadsheets are linked to one other so that changes get
>propogated through the system appropriately.
>
>I've posted a slimmed down version of my files on the Matronics File/Photo
>share site in an attempt to get some peer reviews of my system since I'm
>actually a rookie as things electrical. If the files and use of Excel have a
>benefit to others in the group .... great. I would like to be able to give
>something back to those that have helped me along.
>
>Jeff Smith
>Knoxville, TN
>RV-7A .... electrical
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Ken, not to butt in but Jeff reminded me that you can easily make your own
shapes using the group function. You simply put whatever shapes together
that you like and then hold down the shift key and right click for the menu,
then select "grouping" and then "group". Now you have your own comic book
shape for whatever you like. If you want colors and fancy lines, etc, you
need to format before you group. I made up a bunch after "borrowing" some
of Jeff's. I also put another "wee tutorial" :-) in Photo share on Grouping
to show how connecting shapes can be made up.
My DPDT switches look like a little box with six small circles inside to
indicate the poles. Then wires attach to each pole. Kinda comic book but a
little quicker that making a real switch diagram AND it works from all
directions.
I think for most folks purposes, if someone would put together a
"consistent" shape library to match Bobs schematics, Excel would do nicely
with little or no learning experience.
Have fun!
Bill S
7a Ark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Diagrams
Hi Jeff
Thank you for sharing your excel schematics. I was hoping that I could
copy entire components in one step but I guess not. The wires don't
follow the components when I move them either. Might be my old Excel97
version as the wires do follow when I make up my own diagrams as per the
wee tutorial that Bill posted. I'll play some more.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. |
>
>Bob, you are a leading edge kind of guy It is nice to be able to listen
>in on your discussions. I used to acquire additional knowledge while
>working
>at the airline but as you might imagine airlines are turning into parts
>changers (LRU) and some of the depth of understanding is lost. Thanks
>David
The situation you describe is not unique. The factory where
I work has perhaps a dozen electron herders capable of
digging through all the simple ideas that make our products work.
Worse yet, we are all within 10-years of retiring. Worst of
all, the company's stated goal is to out-source all but
our core competency skills. There are zero opportunities
for the few that are left to mentor up any of those who follow.
Policy and procedures are squeezing the skills and knowledge
out of our gray matter pool.
This is what happens when successful companies built by folks
who love and understand their craft are taken over by managers
who tweak and twist in little experiments to see what improves
the bottom line for next quarter. They don't understand that
success is based not management's next great idea but upon
the ability of folks who buck rivets to produce a desirable
product. It starts with designers and simple ideas and carries
all the way down to the most lowly of tasks ALL of which
are essential to maximizing rate of return on investment.
I have a brother-in-law, highly skilled and proven tool maker
for precision composite parts. He was hired and moved lock stock
and barrel 1500 miles away to build a small composites company.
He's become very frustrated in his job. The work ethic and native
job skills of locals he can tap for the tasks of learning a
craft and delivering a superior product are making it impossible
for him to do the build-up his bosses would like. His bosses
don't seem to understand their poor choice of locations and
would like to place root cause of their misery at my brother-in-
law's feet.
Successful ventures are a solid mix of talents, resources and
financing that deliver desirable product to enthusiastic
markets. Any missing pieces of that puzzle causes leaks that
may well sink the boat. Nobody wishes success for Niagara
Airparts any more than I do. Perhaps I can help by plugging
a leak here and there.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <Richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Annunciator light sizing? |
I've just finished cutting my instrument panel, I've left cavities
for a lot of annunciator lights. I have the layout of which light
goes in which pocket, and what color they are. (red, yellow and
green). I'm planning on using LEDs - maybe all white LED's and print
a color transparency over them.
Does anyone have any experience or practical suggestions for what
size - in terms of wattage or lumens - to make an annunciator
light? It needs to be bright enough to see in daylight (though not
in direct sunlight) but not blinding at night.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams |
Thank you Bill.
Yes this is fairly intuitive compared to the cad programs that I've
played with a bit. A compatible symbol library would indeed make this
doable for me. I suspect a basic cad tutorial would get me going with
one of the freeware cad programs but they sure aren't easy to wade into
without some assistance.
Happy New Year to all
Ken
Bill Schlatterer wrote:
>
>Ken, not to butt in but Jeff reminded me that you can easily make your own
>shapes using the group function. You simply put whatever shapes together
>that you like and then hold down the shift key and right click for the menu,
>then select "grouping" and then "group". Now you have your own comic book
>shape for whatever you like. If you want colors and fancy lines, etc, you
>need to format before you group. I made up a bunch after "borrowing" some
>of Jeff's. I also put another "wee tutorial" :-) in Photo share on Grouping
>to show how connecting shapes can be made up.
>
>My DPDT switches look like a little box with six small circles inside to
>indicate the poles. Then wires attach to each pole. Kinda comic book but a
>little quicker that making a real switch diagram AND it works from all
>directions.
>
>I think for most folks purposes, if someone would put together a
>"consistent" shape library to match Bobs schematics, Excel would do nicely
>with little or no learning experience.
>
>Have fun!
>
>Bill S
>7a Ark
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SMITHBKN(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Thanks for Peer Review |
Ken,
Thanks for taking the time to peer review my diagram. Your comments and
catches on my design are most helpful. This is exactly the kind of help I needed.
It seems I generated more interest and comments with my approach to using
Excel for my diagram and that was a little bit of a surprise to me, but hey, glad
it has been helpful. I'll try to clean up my "symbol" library, probably send
it to Bill so he can add his, and then maybe the two of us can jointly post
this to the list for other's use.
Thanks again for the critical review of my electrical system.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | IFR Requirements/Ambiguity |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.1523 1.0000 -1.0881
Responding to an Avionics-List message previously posted by:
TeamGrumman(at)aol.com
<< Team Grumman wrote "I don't mean to be splitting hairs (well, maybe I do)
but, since the AIM (and the Advisory Circulars) are information only, and
not federal regulations, is
it 'really' illegal to use a non-IFR approved GPS?">>
1/1/2006
Hello Team Grumman, I am pleased that you raised this issue. Here is my take
on it:
1) Some Advisory Circulars contain the words "Material in this AC is neither
mandatory or regulatory".
The AIM Preface contains this wording: "This publication, while not
regulatory, provides information which reflects examples of operating
techniques and procedures which may be requirements in other federal
publications or regulations. It is made available solely to assist pilots in
executing their responsibilities required by other publications."
So one could logically conclude that an a priori failure to comply with an
AC or the AIM is not "really illegal".
2) Now let's shift into the real world. Suppose a pilot is involved in an
incident, ramp check,** or accident wherein an AC or the AIM has been
violated and the FAA decides to suspend or revoke the pilot's license.
The pilot appeals to an NTSB judge and the FAA cites 14 CFR Sec. 91.13 (a)
"....No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so
as to endanger the life or property of another." and 14 CFR Sec. 91.103
"Preflight action. Each pilot in command shall, before bginning a flight,
become familiar with all available information concerning that flight." to
support their case.
How do you suppose the NTSB judge is going to rule?
OC
**PS: I recently sat in an audience and listened to the head ASI (Aviation
Safety Inspector) from an FAA FSDO tell how she had been itching for a long
time to run a ramp check on a hot air balloon (the "notch in my pistol grip"
syndrome) and how disappointed she was that she could not find a thing wrong
when she finally got her chance to inspect one. I have also heard stories
(second hand) of ASI's waiting at an airport with a low ceiling or
visibility and interrogating pilots that have just landed.With a mind set
like that among some FAA employees I am not willing to violate an AC or the
AIM without a very deliberate "risk versus reward" examination of the
situation.
PPS: What is a "Team Grumman"?
> In a message dated 12/31/05 7:38:16 AM, bakerocb(at)cox.net writes:
> "AIM 1-1-19. d. General Requirements 1. Authorization to conduct any GPS
> operation under IFR requires that: (a) GPS navigation equipment used must
> be
> approved in accordance with the requirements specified in Technical
> Standard
> Order (TSO) TSO-C129, or equivalent............."
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annunciator light sizing? |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Richard -
I used a lamp version of an NKK series lighted switch and they work very
well. They are LED's. We felt that they need to be dimmed a bit for night,
which can be done in our circuit with a couple of zener diodes.
Contact me off list if you are interested in the specs, wiring diagrams,
catalog (.pdf), sources and pictures of the annunciator panel.
Cheers,
John
wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience or practical suggestions for what
> size - in terms of wattage or lumens - to make an annunciator
> light? It needs to be bright enough to see in daylight (though not
> in direct sunlight) but not blinding at night.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Annunciator light sizing? |
In a message dated 12/31/2005 5:32:51 PM Central Standard Time,
Richard(at)RILEY.NET writes:
Does anyone have any experience or practical suggestions for what
size - in terms of wattage or lumens - to make an annunciator
light? It needs to be bright enough to see in daylight (though not
in direct sunlight) but not blinding at night.
>>>>>
Hi Richard-
Here's the approach I used. Has worked quite nicely for almost 300 hours so
far, day and nite. Click on >>Next Entry>> at top of page for sebsequent
pages. Maybe you can get some ideas here.
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5126
Have fun & Happy New Year, y'all!
Mark Phillips - Columbia, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob rundle" <bobrundle2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Key Switch - single mag |
Can someone tell me how to wire a standard key switch (L,R,BOTH,START) for a
single mag? I have a separate switch for a single plasma III ignition. The
single left mag is has impulse coupling and I start with the mag only and
the elec. ign off.
Thanks
Happy '06
BobR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thanks for Peer Review |
Hi Jeff ...
Thanks for your contribution idea to use Excel, also to both you and Ken for
the contribution of any future symbols. If the symbols that are contributed
follow those in the Z plans, I think that would be excellent ... it would
facilitate comparing and construction of diagrams. The symbols are well
know to those owning book "The Aeroelectric Connection". If the symbols
were exact copies of those in The Connection book ... what a plus. The word
descriptions of those switch symbols and their internal workings would make
peer reviews a standard to go by. This would help everyone to understand
what it is they have created for wiring their airplane. This would foster
some unique, creative and efficient use of materials and make for safer
wiring. The learning curve of the list would soar.
It seems logical Bob already has these symbols on his computer as part of
The Connection archives. Maybe he would be interested in compiling the
symbols on to one Excel document and placing it at the feet of the list.
This would place all the symbols we have come to "love and adore", at the
disposal of everyone designing their own circuits. What do you say Bob?
What say you all ... ?
Jerry Grimmonpre'
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thanks for Peer Review
>
> Ken,
>
> Thanks for taking the time to peer review my diagram. Your comments and
> catches on my design are most helpful. This is exactly the kind of help I
> needed.
>
> It seems I generated more interest and comments with my approach to using
> Excel for my diagram and that was a little bit of a surprise to me, but
> hey, glad
> it has been helpful. I'll try to clean up my "symbol" library, probably
> send
> it to Bill so he can add his, and then maybe the two of us can jointly
> post
> this to the list for other's use.
>
> Thanks again for the critical review of my electrical system.
>
> Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annunciator light sizing? |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Richard -
I'm sorry I forgot to attribute a lot of credit to Mark. He shared his
system with me early on and I used the basics of the schematic in mine. It
is a rock solid piece of work. Since the lights are different, the actual
wiring and hardware reflect this. Check this for some pictures of the
panel & annunciator lights:
http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder-panel
John
> Hi Richard-
>
> Here's the approach I used. Has worked quite nicely for almost 300
> hours so
> far, day and nite. Click on >>Next Entry>> at top of page for sebsequent
> pages. Maybe you can get some ideas here.
>
> http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5126
>
> Have fun & Happy New Year, y'all!
> Mark Phillips - Columbia, TN
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Eyeball Light Question |
| From: | Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com> |
Dwight,
This latch-up looks a bit like some Cutler-Hammer
operators I worked with in the early eighties. I believe
that there are a few lamps that will fit your housing.
I mention this because a variety of voltages and wattages
gives you a choice of lamp brightness and lamp longitivity
before you even have to think about lamp dimmers.
What I worked with came with a lamp removal tool.
Note that the lamp is a bayonet base and has to be pushed
in and then twisted to remove. Note also that the lamp
has flat sides. The factory supplied removal tool was a three
inch lenght of tygon tubing!! HTH
Larry Mac Donald
lm4(at)juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
Do not achcive
writes:
>
> What I do *not* want to do is install these without a good idea of
> the servicability of the lights. I have fiddled with them but am not
> sure I know how to (a) get them apart or (b) replace the bulb.
It is the latter I'm most interested in, and I believe it'll take the
former for me to accomplish the replacment.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Posting Pictures |
Bob, not sure if you are aware of it but Matt has enabled several of the
other lists, RV7 & RV10 in particular so that you can just attach a jpg file
which is much easier than using the photo share. There was some concern
that some folks might attach large files and slow up those on phone lines
instead of broadband but it doesn't seem to be a problem on the other lists.
Matt just asks that the files be limited in size and to jpg, gif, and xls I
think.
I am sure that if you ask him, he would do the same for the AeroElectric
list as well. Just thought I would throw that out in case you didn't know
it was available. Pictures really help the simple minded :-)
Thanks for moderating a great information tool.
Bill S
RV7a Ark Z13/8 sorta
fuse /panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter11(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thanks for Peer Review |
Jeff, you said, "It seems I generated more interest and comments with my
approach to using
Excel for my diagram and that was a little bit of a surprise to me, . . "
This morning I did my first Excel "illustration" using the drawing tools -
"it is slicker'n snot", excuse the expression.
. . . This so much easier and better than using a CAD program I can't
believe it!
Looking forward to downloading a near-future symbols library from your
collaboration with Bill.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: <SMITHBKN(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thanks for Peer Review
>
> Ken,
>
> Thanks for taking the time to peer review my diagram. Your comments and
> catches on my design are most helpful. This is exactly the kind of help I
> needed.
>
> It seems I generated more interest and comments with my approach to using
> Excel for my diagram and that was a little bit of a surprise to me, but
> hey, glad
> it has been helpful. I'll try to clean up my "symbol" library, probably
> send
> it to Bill so he can add his, and then maybe the two of us can jointly
> post
> this to the list for other's use.
>
> Thanks again for the critical review of my electrical system.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob W M Shipley" <rob(at)robsglass.com> |
| Subject: | Bulb and connector source. |
Harley wrote with the answer to the "Eyeball Light
Question" So maybe he or one of the other cognoscenti on the list can help
with my query.
I have an (older) Airpath compass with MS17983-2 on the front. It has a
flip up hood at the top of the front which looks to be where a cylindrical
bulb should be inserted. It states that it is for 28v but I can see no
reason why 12v won't work. Is this a correct assumption and does anyone
know of a source/ part number for a 12v version of this which might work?
The back of the compass has a co-axial push on connection for the electrical
supply. Can anyone suggest a source / part number for this too?
Thanks
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
N919RV (res) Fuselage .....still!
La Mesa, CA. (next to San Diego)
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Annunciator light sizing? |
FYI to the list:
Through Vx Aviation, www.vx-aviation.com, I've developed several
annunciator lamp fields and controllers. Most of the circuit diagrams
are published for those who prefer to build them from scratch.
For those who don't, I sell pre-made arrays and controllers, as well as
an integrated controller/lamp array.
The real problem with annunciator lamps (besides how to label them) is
how to take all of the different sources (active high, active low,
reversing, etc.), drive the lamps and make them dimmable for night
operation. That's where the Vx controllers come in.
If any one has questions, they can contact me off list.
Thanks, Vern Little
RV-9A
www.vx-aviation.com
John Schroeder wrote:
>
>Richard -
>
>I'm sorry I forgot to attribute a lot of credit to Mark. He shared his
>system with me early on and I used the basics of the schematic in mine. It
>is a rock solid piece of work. Since the lights are different, the actual
>wiring and hardware reflect this. Check this for some pictures of the
>panel & annunciator lights:
>
>http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder-panel
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>>Hi Richard-
>>
>>Here's the approach I used. Has worked quite nicely for almost 300
>>hours so
>>far, day and nite. Click on >>Next Entry>> at top of page for sebsequent
>>pages. Maybe you can get some ideas here.
>>
>>http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5126
>>
>>Have fun & Happy New Year, y'all!
>>Mark Phillips - Columbia, TN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams |
For those on the list that want a headstart using an electrical CAD
package, go to http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html.
There is a complete aircraft electrical schematic, symbol library, and a
link to free design software from ExpressPCB.
Included in the schematic and library are many of Bob's favorite
switches and other components.
I've used ExpressSCH and ExpressPCB for about 3 years, and I'm very
happy with it. It appeals mostly to those who have used electrical
design software before, and is very easy to learn and use.
Everything is free, is readily customizable and easy to learn.
Vern Little
RV-9A
Lynn Riggs wrote:
>
>Jeff,
>
> Do you have an address for where you posted your excel files?
>
>
>
>I've posted a slimmed down version of my files on the Matronics File/Photo
>share site in an attempt to get some peer reviews of my system since I'm
>actually a rookie as things electrical. If the files and use of Excel have a
>benefit to others in the group .... great. I would like to be able to give
>something back to those that have helped me along.
>
>Jeff Smith
>Knoxville, TN
>RV-7A .... electrical
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Lynn A. Riggs
>riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
>St. Paul, MN
>BH #656 Kit #22
>http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
>
> "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the
>people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only
>safe depositories." -- Thomas Jefferson
>
>---------------------------------
> Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Wingtip Light Monitors |
Howdy A-list!
I know this is nothing electric, but that's part of what makes it so cool.
It worked out so well I just thought I'd share with the rest of y'all!
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=7883
Click on the fotos for a better view and >>Next Entry>> to the next two pages
for the "how-to". Lemme know if ya got any ?s.
Happy 2 double-oh 6 to all!
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Bill Schlatterer ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Bill Schlatterer
Lists: AeroElectric-List
Subject: How to build custom connecting shapes (parts) for schematics in
Excel
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net.01.01.2006/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Bill Schlatterer ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Bill Schlatterer
Lists: AeroElectric-List
Subject: Excel Parts List Library
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net-1.01.01.2006/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. |
>From: "Robert L.
Nuckolls, III"
>The only concerns I might have for alternator "stress" at low rpm is
>cooling. This is hard to achieve on a Lycoming installation when you leave
>the small pulley in place. Even so, terms like "low rpm", "very high draw",
>"extra strain", "reducing total load", and "brief" are all non-quantified terms
>having no value for advancing either understanding or increasing service
>life of the alternator.
I think it is hilarious that you are NOW writing Niagara Airparts, aka
Canadian Aero Manufacturing, to ask what they meant in their alternator
instructions. Its great you are asking, but you already have run your mouth.
You said its wrong and gives no insight or understanding into the physics.
Why start asking questions now? You attacked Vans, Blue Mountain
Avionics and Skytec with out asking for their opinion or clarification first.
You are entitled to your opinion and not lacking them by the way, but why
care what Niagara says now; it makes no difference, you are right, they are
wrong. Your ability to write is far superior to anyone, so it is understandable
that it does not meet your standards. Why embarrass them with their
ignorance.
>By way of introduction, I'm currently an electrical engineer
>for Raytheon Aircraft (Beech) in Wichita, KS.
Bob, you are not an engineer. You need to go to school and have a degree to
be an engineer. I dont care what your title is at Raytheon. You are not an
engineer and never will be. You are no doubt an excellent technician but you
are no engineer. It is like calling a garbage collector a sanitation engineer,
the word engineer is there, but the can-thrower is no more an engineer than
you are a BSEE, MSEE or Ph.D EE. I dont care how well you work an
oscilloscope or solder iron that is not engineering.
The title engineer is one of the most miss used and abused terms. The
American Medical Board would not allow anyone to put up a shingle and
call himself or herself a Medical Doctor, MD. However in this country
anyone can call themselves an engineer.
As a licensed PE, with two engineering degrees I am offended by your
assertion you're an engineer, especially after your comments of contempt
and low esteem towards engineers.
Bob you said you would rather hire a person from a community college
who knows his way around a workbench than an engineer. First I seriously
doubt you are in charge of hiring engineers. Second your ignorance is
common of people who dont know the body of knowledge which
encompasses engineering. You're like Cliff Calvin, the Postman on Cheers.
You know a few facts and throw around words with out understanding, like
failure mode analysis to impresses someone. LETS SEE YOUR FMA
ANALYSIS. LETS SEE YOUR DATA. What no data?
Your comment of how unnecessary math is speaks to your ignorance of
engineering. Engineers do not necessarily work on the bench. I am sure
you can regale us with stories of how incompetent engineers are and how
superior you are over those college boys. Dumb engineers will live with
it, leaving the workbench to your Votech oscilloscope jockeys and solder
iron artist. I learned how to run a scope and solder iron when I was 13 years
old. It is a vocational skill not engineering Bob. Your just a little delusional.
As a PE and with a MSME it is unacceptable if Raytheon capriciously calls
technical employees like yourself engineers, who do not hold a degree
from a college of engineering, accredited by ABET (American Board of
Engineering Technology).
NSPE (National Society of Professional Engineers) handles the licenser of
Professional Engineers (PE) and protects the profession from frauds, albeit
and apparently poorly. I hope the real engineers at Raytheon who hold
advanced degrees do not let technicians, such yourself hold the title of
engineer, and your letter to Niagara is just your normal smoke blowing
boastful self-importance display of grandioseness and pomposity.
Does your stupid management know you write all kinds of negative
comments about management (them) and Raytheon? I need to sell my
Raytheon stock. It is up over $40 and I bought it at $30. Knowing how
disgruntled you are with management and how Raytheon does not appreciate
you Bob, I better sell my stock right now. I have my sell order in for Monday
morning. A thanks for the heads up on how screwed up Raytheon is. I know
how you feel, you being an Eagle its hard to soar with Turkeys. Things
would be so much better if you where running things I'm sure. Oh well.
Your Buddy George, CFI,II,MEI,ATP,CE500, B737, B757, B767
Happy New Years.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.1070 1.0000 -1.3506
1/2/2005
For all of us believers in the magic of GPS and modern avionics please read
the below cautionary tale:
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/2003/A03F0114/A03F0114.asp
My flight time over the ocean is not that great, but the terror that wells
up when one has been out of sight of land for hours and is uncertain of
their position is huge.
Particularly note the diagram at the end of this article. Imagine the
decision process / courage involved in making that greater than 270 degree
turn to the right.
OC
PS: All pilots flying around IFR with out dated GPS data bases should read
this article.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Velvick <tomvelvick(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. |
*To gmcjetpilot alias George alias ???. It sure is easy to brag about your credentials
when you dont post your real name.
I find it ironic that you get on Bob over his credentials, but you are just an
anonymous poster who could be the bigger bullsh$$er of all time.
Why dont you add a few more titles while you are at it. No one will ever know
if you are telling the truth of not.
Tom Velvick
>> Your Buddy George, CFI,II,MEI,ATP,CE500, B737, B757, B767
Happy New Years.
*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Heavy Duty battery & Starter Cables |
I recall seeing on Bob's website a few years ago that he offered some
custom made cables, perhaps with more flex than tefzal. However I find
no reference to any of that now. Can anyone point me in the right
direction, or who might offer such a service, as I don't really want to
buy crimpers for #2 lugs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com.Available! |
| Subject: | Re: [ Bill Schlatterer ] : New Email List Photo Share |
Available!
Now THAT'S helpful. Maybe I can get a refund on my Excel for Dummies book, which
I may not need now.
Thanks, Bill; great contribution to the list and the way we'll be visually sharing
ideas here from now on.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: [ Bill Schlatterer ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Bill Schlatterer
Lists: AeroElectric-List
Subject: How to build custom connecting shapes (parts) for schematics in
Excel
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net.01.01.2006/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heavy Duty battery & Starter Cables |
IIRC - it was a pointer to B&C specialties
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heavy Duty battery & Starter Cables
>
>
> I recall seeing on Bob's website a few years ago that he offered some
> custom made cables, perhaps with more flex than tefzal. However I find
> no reference to any of that now. Can anyone point me in the right
> direction, or who might offer such a service, as I don't really want to
> buy crimpers for #2 lugs.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Airparts. |
December 20, 2005 - January 02, 2006
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-fe