AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-fj
January 30, 2006 - February 12, 2006
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hardened Windshield |
Keep in mind a couple of thoughts.......
This material could very well work in the GA impact applications "most of
the time", but, I am guessing that 3M does not see a market large enough to
commit to the testing and paper work hassles that they would have to work
through. Also, I am assuming that these are "films" of some type and I
would venture to guess that they do not have the ability to be applied to
all the compound curves in our various windows and canopies designs.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja(at)starpower.net>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hardened Windshield
>
>
> The following is an inquiry and subsequent response from 3M regarding
> their product being used on windshields as added bird impact protection:
>
>> Has this product been tested on General Aviation aircraft windshields as
> > a viable protection against impact damage and cockpit penetration by
>> inflight bird collisions?
>
> Thank you for contacting 3M. We appreciate your interest in our
> products. Our products have been tested for the application you describe
> and we currently do not manufacture/market a product, which would meet
> your needs.
>
> Regards,
> Thomas
> 3M Building Safety Solutions Department
> Http://www.3M.com/windowfilm
> 1-800-480-1704
>
>
> David Carter wrote:
>>
>>
>> For 3M films, go to
>> http://www.3m.com/us/arch_construct/scpd/windowfilm/
>>
>> The "breakage protection" films are listed under "Safety and Security
>> Films" - At the link above, go to the left column and click "Products",
>> then
>> "Residential" (or probably any of them) and click
>> "3M Scotchshield Safety & Security Films" link after reading the blurb.
>>
>> David
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
>> To:
>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 7:34 AM
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hardened Windshield
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>> On the subject of birdstrikes and helmets:
>>> Didn't I see a TV ad for a plastic layer to add to glass/whatever
>>>which renders it virtually impervious to baseball bats, robbers' tools
>>>(and
>>>birdstrikes)? Might be worth searching........
>>>Ferg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
On my comant WSI/GPS antenna, they answered my question
more than once about grounds. They said it does not
require a ground plane, but it does require a ground. It needs
to have a ground on the screws at least, just to allow the
active circuitry voltages to power the thing. Other than
that, nothing.
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Good Morning All,
>
> Somewhere in my totally uninformed background I thought I had been told that
> the GPS antenna required no ground plane at all.
>
> I have seen them mounted on a wooden support just beneath the fabric on a
> couple of Beech Staggerwings and I have seen many supported by various means
> near a Plexiglas window or canopy, all without ground planes.
>
> The question posed by Bob In Iowa adds another facet to the first questions.
>
>
> Does the lack of a ground plane cause a loss in signal strength?
>
> Does the requirement to bring the signal through Plexiglas, fiberglass or
> fabric cause a loss?
>
> If these are factors, how does one measure the loss?
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
>
> In a message dated 1/28/2006 11:34:05 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:
>
> Peter,
>
> Have you attempted to measure the "attenuation factor" if any?
>
> I'm installing a 430 in an all electric IFR Panel in a RV-8.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob in Iowa
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Hardened Windshield |
It is obvious3M want nothing to do with any such practice, purely for the
litigation inferred. As for compatibility, I suspect you just buy some and
try it out. I would rather lose ten bucks than my eyesight - might even
stick it on my visor too.
Ferg
PS They sell shaded film for the roof, too.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hardened Windshield
|
| Keep in mind a couple of thoughts.......
| This material could very well work in the GA impact applications "most of
| the time", but, I am guessing that 3M does not see a market large enough
to
| commit to the testing and paper work hassles that they would have to work
| through. Also, I am assuming that these are "films" of some type and I
| would venture to guess that they do not have the ability to be applied to
| all the compound curves in our various windows and canopies designs.
| David
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja(at)starpower.net>
| To:
| Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:29 AM
| Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hardened Windshield
|
|
| >
| >
| > The following is an inquiry and subsequent response from 3M regarding
| > their product being used on windshields as added bird impact protection:
| >
| >> Has this product been tested on General Aviation aircraft windshields
as
| > > a viable protection against impact damage and cockpit penetration by
| >> inflight bird collisions?
| >
| > Thank you for contacting 3M. We appreciate your interest in our
| > products. Our products have been tested for the application you describe
| > and we currently do not manufacture/market a product, which would meet
| > your needs.
| >
| > Regards,
| > Thomas
| > 3M Building Safety Solutions Department
| > Http://www.3M.com/windowfilm
| > 1-800-480-1704
| >
| >
| > David Carter wrote:
| >>
| >>
| >> For 3M films, go to
| >> http://www.3m.com/us/arch_construct/scpd/windowfilm/
| >>
| >> The "breakage protection" films are listed under "Safety and Security
| >> Films" - At the link above, go to the left column and click "Products",
| >> then
| >> "Residential" (or probably any of them) and click
| >> "3M Scotchshield Safety & Security Films" link after reading the blurb.
| >>
| >> David
| >>
| >> ----- Original Message -----
| >> From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
| >> To:
| >> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 7:34 AM
| >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hardened Windshield
| >>
| >>
| >>
| >>>
| >>>Cheers,
| >>> On the subject of birdstrikes and helmets:
| >>> Didn't I see a TV ad for a plastic layer to add to
glass/whatever
| >>>which renders it virtually impervious to baseball bats, robbers' tools
| >>>(and
| >>>birdstrikes)? Might be worth searching........
| >>>Ferg
| >>>
| >>>
| >>>
| >>>
| >>>
| >>>
| >>>
| >>>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: MFJ-259B antenna analyzer |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 7:41 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: MFJ-259B antenna analyzer
|
| There are 6 MFJ-259B analyzers on Ebay right now
| with buy it now prices less than I paid for my MFJ-259A
| 6 years ago. See item number 5857318864
| Bob . . .
Cheers,
I have one of these very useful devices, because I won it at a
Hamfest (Not a swine convention but a glorified flea market for radio nuts).
I gave it to the local club as there is no way an expensive item such as
this would be used monthly, except antenna labs.
However, in spite of all kinds of warnings, even dedicated hams
burnt the device out, at $50 a pop for commercial repair. SO I keep it, but
will serve to test any antenna in the club. That way it won't become a
charred mote in the back storage.
I say again, try the local ham club (www.ARRL.org) and look for
"Affliliated clubs". Send them an email, or phone and explain your desparate
need. You may have to turn away an army of curious............ but one will
have an antenna analyzer.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Battery options? |
Curious of some opinions. I have a Lancair Legacy that is going to be a 24V
dual alt/batt setup. I have the following options for batteries and I'm not
sure which is the most preferred.
A) use 2 full size 24v Concorde batteries, each around 17ah. This creates a
size and weight challenge
B) use 1 full size 24v Concorde and 1 7.2ah backup B&C 24v battery, this
cuts the weight down, but at the expense of less than 2/3s the capacity on
the backup side
C) a derivative of number 1 is to use 1 fullsize 24v concorde and 2 odyssey
type 12v batteries in parallel for the backup side. I'm not sure of the
weight penalty here, but I get better backup current capacity. I believe
that 2 can fit in the same size as 1 24v concorde so battery boxes are not
the issue.
Thots... I suppose I'm borrowing trouble as my wife would say. A backup
battery is just that, scale what's on it for the 7.2ah B&C, use the smaller
size and be done with it....
But I just had to ask,
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Battery options? |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
That's a LOT of backup....Why do you think you need that much?
Personally I would have the two alts and stick with a single
battery....With a decent load you could still run your alternator
without the bettery if it somehow failed.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan
K. Adamson
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:10 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery options?
-->
Curious of some opinions. I have a Lancair Legacy that is going to be a
24V dual alt/batt setup. I have the following options for batteries and
I'm not sure which is the most preferred.
A) use 2 full size 24v Concorde batteries, each around 17ah. This
creates a size and weight challenge
B) use 1 full size 24v Concorde and 1 7.2ah backup B&C 24v battery, this
cuts the weight down, but at the expense of less than 2/3s the capacity
on the backup side
C) a derivative of number 1 is to use 1 fullsize 24v concorde and 2
odyssey type 12v batteries in parallel for the backup side. I'm not
sure of the weight penalty here, but I get better backup current
capacity. I believe that 2 can fit in the same size as 1 24v concorde
so battery boxes are not the issue.
Thots... I suppose I'm borrowing trouble as my wife would say. A backup
battery is just that, scale what's on it for the 7.2ah B&C, use the
smaller size and be done with it....
But I just had to ask,
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Buckaroo Banzai <ornerycuss2001(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SL-30 Intercom |
Stan,
I use the SL-30 intercom and it's acceptable with my Bose and David Clark headsets.
Doesn't work at all well with the LightSpeed ANR headset that my buddy
has though.
Someone mentioned that it's tough to control volume and squelch. True because
those items are buried a few menu levels "down" from the main screen.
There is no music function and no muting function.
I eventually plan to get an intercom.
Greg
Listers,
Is anyone with the Garmin SL-30 nav-comm using the built-in intercom?
If so, is it acceptable? Or do you recommend buying a separate intercom?
Is squelch a problem? Do you have control over squelch? Is there a means to
input music? Is there a muting function?
All advice appreciated.
Stan Sutterfield
www.rv-8a.net
---------------------------------
Bring words and photos together (easily) with
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dale Ellis <rv8builder(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | question about Vans Starter Relay |
Sometime ago, I purchased a starter relay from Vans Aircraft.
Now that I am ready to start the wiring of my RV-8, I need to know how the terminals
on the relay labeled "S" and "I" should be wired?
Thanks in advance,
Dale Ellis
Greer, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: question about Vans Starter Relay |
Dale,
The relay you mention is actually a Ford starter relay. S stands for
START and I stands for IGNITION BYPASS. To engage the relay, you need to
apply 14 volts to the S terminal. For our use, the I terminal isn't needed.
However, you could run a 22 AWG wire from the I terminal up to a "starter
engaged" enunciator lamp on the instrument panel. Run the other lead from
this lamp to your single point ground block. The lamp would warn you if the
relay ever stuck "on".
Charlie Kuss
>
>Sometime ago, I purchased a starter relay from Vans Aircraft.
>
>Now that I am ready to start the wiring of my RV-8, I need to know how the
>terminals on the relay labeled "S" and "I" should be wired?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Dale Ellis
>Greer, SC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Deer Strike Incident |
1/30/2006
Hello Fellow Pilots, To expand on the subject of striking animal objects.
A few years back I was involved in a deer strike in a rented Cessna 172
during take off roll while making a touch and go landing at a hard surface,
public use, non controlled field . In my opinion the incident could not have
been avoided. The results were:
1) I was asked to submit a written report to the local FAA FSDO which I did.
2) I had to write a check for $1,000 for the insurance deductible that I was
responsible for. The renting agency had actually raised the deductible
obligation to $5,000, but had neglected to tell me that or have me sign the
new rental agreement to that effect so I convinced them that $1,000 was all
that I owed them.
3) Damage to the aircraft was not that extensive and there was no evidence
of propeller contact at all. But the person who owned the aircraft and had
leased it to the renting agency saw this as an opportunity to have the
engine overhauled at the insurance company's expense. The engine was removed
and shipped back to Lycoming for tear down and rework. The final cost to the
insurance company for airplane repair and engine removal, rework, and
reinstallation was over $11,000 -- I don't know how much over.
4) For the next 3 or 5 years, depending upon which insurance company I
applied to for liability insurance coverage only for my amateur built
experimental airplane, I was refused coverage because of this incident. Some
of the insurance agents cared absolutely nothing about the nature of the
incident, my contribution towards its cause, or the resulting cost, and
refused coverage over the telephone simply because the incident was on my
record.
My recommendations: Don't hit anything. Think long and hard about who you
tell about what you hit.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Deer Strike Incident |
At 05:37 PM 1/30/2006, you wrote:
>My recommendations: Don't hit anything. Think long and hard about who you
>tell about what you hit.
And when you're reincarnated, don't do something stupid like coming back as
Bill Gates or Alan Greenspan or a Trident sub captain. Come back as an
insurance company. That's where all the power is.
Dave Morris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: question about Vans Starter Relay |
A similar relay and descriptions of the terminals
is illustrated at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s702wire.jpg
>
>Dale,
> The relay you mention is actually a Ford starter relay. S stands for
>START and I stands for IGNITION BYPASS. To engage the relay, you need to
>apply 14 volts to the S terminal. For our use, the I terminal isn't needed.
>However, you could run a 22 AWG wire from the I terminal up to a "starter
>engaged" enunciator lamp on the instrument panel. Run the other lead from
>this lamp to your single point ground block. The lamp would warn you if the
>relay ever stuck "on".
>Charlie Kuss
>
>
>
> >
> >Sometime ago, I purchased a starter relay from Vans Aircraft.
> >
> >Now that I am ready to start the wiring of my RV-8, I need to know how the
> >terminals on the relay labeled "S" and "I" should be wired?
> >
> >Thanks in advance,
> >Dale Ellis
> >Greer, SC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>
>
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | MFJ-259B antenna analyzer |
| From: | "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> |
Hamfests are a term for amateur operators getting together to swap and
sell surplus equipment. They tend to pick up frequency in February
through June timeline.
Do follow the recommendation to reach out to your local guys. HRO (Ham
Radio Outlet)is a retail chain which can bring you up to speed with a
single "over the counter" conversation.
John Cox
W7COX
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fergus Kyle
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MFJ-259B antenna analyzer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 7:41 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: MFJ-259B antenna analyzer
|
| There are 6 MFJ-259B analyzers on Ebay right now
| with buy it now prices less than I paid for my MFJ-259A
| 6 years ago. See item number 5857318864
| Bob . . .
Cheers,
I have one of these very useful devices, because I won it at
a
Hamfest (Not a swine convention but a glorified flea market for radio
nuts).
I gave it to the local club as there is no way an expensive item such as
this would be used monthly, except antenna labs.
However, in spite of all kinds of warnings, even dedicated
hams
burnt the device out, at $50 a pop for commercial repair. SO I keep it,
but
will serve to test any antenna in the club. That way it won't become a
charred mote in the back storage.
I say again, try the local ham club (www.ARRL.org) and look
for
"Affliliated clubs". Send them an email, or phone and explain your
desparate
need. You may have to turn away an army of curious............ but one
will
have an antenna analyzer.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MFJ-259B antenna analyzer |
I would like to thank everyone Who E-mailed me with information. It was a
great help. Thank you. Tom Saccio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: transponder gets into comm transceiver |
>
>
>
> >Comments/Questions: Bob, the reception on my KX-155 transceiver is garbled
> >by the interrogation responses from my KX-76 transponder. The correlation
> >is unambiguous... the interference is only noted when the reception is
> >unsquelched by a transmission from another station and the transponder
> >interrogation response light is lit; additionally the problem disappears
> >if I put the transponder in STBY. I checked grounds and they seem
> >good. I've already had the transponder serviced once, and replaced it
> >once. Seems like anything I do to it corrects the problem for a short
> >time, then it comes back again. Any thoughts? I've got a Velleman
> >oscilloscope and an EE background, so I should be able to do a "deep dive"
> >on this and get the dang thing fixed. Thanks, Dave D
>
> This is most likely an RFI problem. The transponder talks
> to the ground in a stream of short (.5 uS) pulses that
> encode your squawk and altitude. While average power from the
> transponder is low (well under 1W) the peak power can be 100W
> or more.
>
> I'd look for bad connector in transponder coax that may be
> radiating the interior of the aircraft. Is this a new condition
> or has it existed since day-one for the installation? You
> might need to reposition the transponder antenna. Check it's
> installation too. Dismount, clean the bonding areas under the
> mounting hardware and re-install.
Bob,
Thanks so much for making a personal response!
The condition did not seem to be a problem early in the airplane's
life, but got progressively worse, and then I had the transponder
checked and replaced. Since the cavity was bad, I convinced myself
that maybe the old cavity was spewing electromagnetic radiation
across the spectrum, thereby clobbering my receiver. However,
the problem occasionally returned, and this last weekend was
particularly bad.
I took a look at all the connectors and mounts before, but will do
so again. Actually the first time I had this problem I thought that
the colocated antenna cable runs of the VHF and transponder might
be the problem, . . .
I've never seen two coaxes "talk" to each other if they were
properly installed . . .
. . . and I "re-plumbed" quite a bit of the system to move them apart.
This effort included replacing most of the connectors, none of which had
any effect. Is there an easy way to check connectors or mounts with
a scope?
No, a pretty sophisticated thing called a network analyzer is needed.
If you've recently refurbished the connectors, then this is a very
low order probability. Let's call the coaxes and connectors 'good'.
I've had others tell me that they do not think this is RFI, but rather
the result of the transponder transient injecting some bad stuff onto
either the +14 vdc or the ground circuits of either the radio or the
audio panel. One gent told me he had a similar problem which he believed
was the result of his switching regulator putting trash on the power
line as it tried to deal with the transponder power surge. He said he
put a choke on his audio panel power supply to solve the problem. I'm
now thinking that one of the things I should have checked was whether
the interference only occurs during VHF transmissions, or alternately
clobbers my intercom as well. Maybe any audio would be getting clobbered,
not just VHF, and I only correlated it with VHF reception because
that's the only time my audio was keyed/de-squelched. Might be getting in
through the microphone circuit?
Get a couple of 6v lantern batteries and rig yourself a 12v "test"
battery. Try running the transponder from this battery by disconnecting
the power wire at the bus breaker and clip-leading the battery into the
system. If the noise goes away, then it's conducted onto the 14V line.
If this is the case, filtering at the source is better than filtering
at the victim.
Noted today that The Technician's Notebook by Jerry Gordon lists a service
bulletin KT-76-1 that talks about replacing the power supply inverter
transformer in order to reduce the electromagnetic radiation from the
transponder power supply. I would think that any service bulletin would
have been completed on the rebuilt transponder that I purchased just last
year, but this might be a clue.
Hmmmmm . . . I'm having trouble figuring out how this transformer
would go bad and get worse over time.
Thanks again for all the great advice! Just ordered a new copy of the
"Connection".... the one I have now is #6 or so, and I'm sure there's
a lot more good info in it by now!
Be sure to keep it up to date by downloading revisions from
the website as they are published. You only need to buy the
book once that way!
Check out chapter 16 on noise. I speak of the test battery
technique for powering either victims or antagonists from
the battery to see if observed effects change or go away.
The same chapter speaks of the value of isolating headset
and microphone jacks from airframe ground and carrying their
respective ground leads all the way back to the intercom on
shields or conductors in the bundles.
Be sure to let us know what you find!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Minearts" <smineart(at)mahaska.org> |
| Subject: | GPS power adaptor cord |
I got a cig lighter adaptor cord for my Garmin handheld, and was thinking of eliminating
the cigar-lighter socket and plug. I see that there are 4 connectors
in the gps end. Without dissecting the cord, what are the four wires for?
Steve Mineart, Zenith CH601
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GPS power adaptor cord |
Good Morning Steve,
Two are for power. One ground and one feed.
The other two are for data transfer. My recollection is that they are
crossed, that is, the power feed A+ is opposite the Ground, etc. For my Garmin
295, the pin out directions are in the addendum section of the manual. What
Garmin do you have?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 1/31/2006 6:25:20 A.M. Central Standard Time,
smineart(at)mahaska.org writes:
I got a cig lighter adaptor cord for my Garmin handheld, and was thinking of
eliminating the cigar-lighter socket and plug. I see that there are 4
connectors in the gps end. Without dissecting the cord, what are the four wires
for?
Steve Mineart, Zenith CH601
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Downside to powering headsets with ships power? |
No, not really. The only draw back is if the passive (power off, not
active) noise canceling of the headset is poor like the Bose X in which
case you have very little effect from the headset without power for the
active system. If the headset is able to control the background noise
with the power off, then that is what will happen if you should lose
power to your headset.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:43 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Downside to powering headsets with ships
power?
I have 2 Lightspeed headsets will be using on our Europa.
Is there any downside using regulated ships power to run them?
Thx.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris
--
1/16/2006
--
1/16/2006
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | the physics behind Rotax ignition switch ratings |
The Rotax 914 manual calls for using ignition "kill" switches rated for
a minimum switching voltage of 250 V and a minimum switching current of
0.5 A. I've convinced myself that the Carling switches we have (from
B&C) are suitable after reading Bob's "Switch Rating" article. However,
I'm curious about the physics...
Is there really 250 V built up in that dual CDI just waiting for a path
to ground?
I assume that there is resistance in series to limit the current to 0.5
A when the ignition system is shorted. Would more resistance in series
with the "kill" switch act to increase the time constant of the shorted
ignition circuit (assuming it looks like an RC circuit) thus leading to
a longer "bleed" of energy from the CDI capacitors... and perhaps a
delayed shutdown?
Can anyone describe a "typical" time history of voltage and current
across the switch contacts for a "kill" event?
Thanks for entertaining such random thoughts!
D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Speed 3 Guy" <speed3guy(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | GPS power adaptor cord |
I think all Garmin cords are the same. From my 176 manual...Red:8-35 VDC,
Black: Ground, Brown: Data Out, White: Data In.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of The
Minearts
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 5:21 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS power adaptor cord
-->
I got a cig lighter adaptor cord for my Garmin handheld, and was thinking of
eliminating the cigar-lighter socket and plug. I see that there are 4
connectors in the gps end. Without dissecting the cord, what are the four
wires for?
Steve Mineart, Zenith CH601
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Beeghly <jbeeghly(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Plug for Turn & Bank |
Lynn or Paul,
I have a related question: I picked up one of these Cannon plugs at
the Osh Kosh fly market. Now I need to figure out what goes to what.
My particular used Turn and Bank was made by Precision Aero
Instruments, but my guess is that a three pin hook-up must be close to
universal?
Looking in to the plug on the back of the instrument there is a "key"
at about 11:00 to orient the plug with pins at about 2:00, 5:00 and
9:00. I'm guessing one of these pins is ground and one is 12 volt +?
Would the third be for a light, if present?
Jim Beeghly
wrote: -->
<
Lynn or Paul,
I have a related question: I picked up one of these Cannon plugs at the Osh Kosh
fly market. Now I need to figure out what goes to what. My particular used Turn
and Bank was made by Precision Aero Instruments, but my guess is that a three
pin hook-up must be close to universal?
Looking in to the plug on the back of the instrument there is a "key" at about
11:00 to orient the plug with pins at about 2:00, 5:00 and 9:00. I'm guessing
one of these pins is ground and one is 12 volt +? Would the third be for a light,
if present?
Jim Beeghly
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: Lynn Riggs riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
Try Aircraft Spruce part # 10-00789 Cannon Plu MS3106A-10SL-3S and part # 10-00959
Cable Clamp MS3057-4A. That is what I used.
Paul McAllister paul.mcallister(at)qia.net wrote: -- AeroElectric-List message
posted by: "Paul McAllister"
Hi all,
Could someone point me towards a surce for a 3 pin plug for a Turn Bank.
It appears to be a fairly standard fitting, this particular
instruments is
a Unites Instruments.
Thanks, Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Plug for Turn & Bank |
>
>
>Lynn or Paul,
>
>I have a related question: I picked up one of these Cannon plugs at
>the Osh Kosh fly market. Now I need to figure out what goes to what.
>My particular used Turn and Bank was made by Precision Aero
>Instruments, but my guess is that a three pin hook-up must be close to
>universal?
>
>Looking in to the plug on the back of the instrument there is a "key"
>at about 11:00 to orient the plug with pins at about 2:00, 5:00 and
>9:00. I'm guessing one of these pins is ground and one is 12 volt +?
>Would the third be for a light, if present?
>
>Jim Beeghly
Here's a view looking into the pin face of a male
connector (on the back of the instrument).
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/MS3102E10SL3P.jpg
Last one I hooked up 25 years ago had pin A was (+) and B was
ground. Pin C was not used. This jives with data presented at:
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page22.htm
down near the bottom of the page.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom(at)mcmsys.com> |
Any body had any experiences, good or bad with these cordless soldering irons.
Will they generate enough heat to solder wires, or mainly for PC boards etc.
bob U.
Cold Heat Cordless Soldering Iron
NOW: $16.99
91298-1VGA
Blue Skies
Bob Unternaehrer
shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z-13/8 some questions |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
I am trying to shoehorn my needs into a Z-13/8 and have some questions.
Our Europa has a Rotax 914 and want to use a ND alternator on the vacuum
pad as primary alternator with a LR3C regulator and use the internal
generator as Aux alternator. The battery will be between 12 and 18 amps
located aft of the motor and Main-Bus and E-Bus by 7 feet (~ 14 feet of
wire) run will be using #4 wire.
1) Will the LR3C be happy if I connect the #6 Bus to my Main Bus, or
should it really go closer to the battery?
2) Will the LR3C be happy if I connect the #3 OV sense wire to my Main
Bus, or should it really go closer to the battery?
3) Rotax install manual wants difference between terminal C of the
regulator and the battery to be less than .2V, is this achievable with 12
feet of wire and a max load of 30 amps? What would happen if more than .2V
difference?
4)Rotax Install manual states" never sever connection between terminal C
and +B of regulator e.g. by removal of fuse"
Z-16 which is designed for only use of internal Rotax generator looks like
it disconnects C and +B, Z-13/8 which uses a SD8 as a aux alternator only
makes or breaks the output of SD-8.
When using Rotax internal generator as Aux on Z-13/8 do I want to follow
Z-16 and sever, or follow Z-13/8 and leave C and +B connected and only
make and break output?
5) Rotax install manual recommends a 30 amp slow blow fuse on output of
regulator, is a 16AWG Fuselink as used in Z-16 equivalent to a 30 amp slow
blow fuse?
6) On Z-13/7 E-Bus has a 20 AWG Fuse-link,16AWG wire, switch and 7 amp
fuse:
Z-32 Heavy Duty E-Bus Feed bumps up wire to 14AWG, a 10 amp fuse and a
relay instead of a switch
a) For the 3 additional amp fuse, why did a relay replace switch?
b) Why was Fuse-link dropped?
Thx.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Airline style 2-pin 12v power outlet jacks... |
| From: | Greg Campbell <gregcampbellusa(at)GMAIL.COM> |
I have a supply that plugs directly into a two pin
"power outlet" that they have on some airliners.
The inside has two little pins and a push button latch
to hold it more securely than a cigarette lighter.
I'd like to put one of those jacks into my homebuilt.
Does anybody know the part number or have a source for these?
Thanks,
Greg
REFERENCE: us.kensington.com/html/3877.html
<http://www.us.kensington.com/html/3877.html>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
>Any body had any experiences, good or bad with these cordless soldering irons.
No, but I'd suggest one of the butane powered soldering irons.
Just as portable.
No batteries to run down while sitting in a drawer, where most soldering
irons spend the VAST majority of their time.
Doesn't cool quite as fast, but still really fast. It'll be cool and
ready to stow away before you can get the cover screwed back onto the
electo-gizmo that you were working on.
Can be used as a lighter, to put heat on shrink tubing, for instance.
The cordless iron will never light your barbecue grill.
Can be used to punch holes in fabric before rib tying.
Can be used to solder lugs onto battery cable (Go to one of Bob's
seminars. He'll demonstrate. Bring your battery cable and you might
end up with a free lug 8*) I was looking at those cordless irons until
I saw Bob demonstrate the butane irons abilities.
Cheap. The super deluxe versions are less than $10.
Every drugstore on Earth has the refill cans of butane for about $5.
Having limited space to store and limited time to maintain tools, I like
each to be as versatile as possible. The little butane soldering irons
are a clear winner.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o www.ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> |
Can't say I've used one but watching the TV ad's it looks like your
going to get cold solder joints. For soldering a wire together or on
to something, it may work, but I don't think it would work well for
anything electronic. Kind of like those strap wrenches, they look
good but when you come to use them you find they stretch since the
straps do not have any strengthening web material. So just when you
get to the point of getting enough pressure applied to turn
something you find your self bottomed out against the part your
trying to turn. Lowe's sells one in their water filter area that's
much better and Sears has metal handle unit in their tool department.
jerb
At 12:23 AM 2/1/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>Any body had any experiences, good or bad with these cordless
>soldering irons. Will they generate enough heat to solder wires, or
>mainly for PC boards etc. bob U.
>
>Cold Heat Cordless Soldering Iron
>NOW: $16.99
>91298-1VGA
>
>Blue Skies
>Bob Unternaehrer
>shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Markey <markeypilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 01/27/06 |
Rich,
I flew a Vari-EZ with Kuntzelman strobes. They worked great and were the original
strobes when the FAA inspector signed the plane off for nighttime VFR. The
units are steamlined and can be mounted on a flat surface or on curved surfaces.
The lenses are clear, but I have seen folks color red one of the two units.
I put a new set on my Glasair this spring - one on top behind the canopy and
one on bottom behind the wing. I asked several pilots for feedback on visibility
of the plane, both on the ground, in the pattern when viewed from the ground,
and air-to-air en route and in the pattern. All comments were favorable. This
is in distinct contrast to the negative feedback I received with the wing tip
units, which are recessed on the Glasair.
I have had good service getting a new bulb - I banged it hard on the Vari-EZ
while doing other maintenance work - oops. For the new units, the lady was very
friendly and threw in enough cabling so that I wouldn't have to make any splices.
I do pick up a bit of strobe signature over the LightSpeed 20's when the engine
is off and things are real quiet in the cockpit. Under normal ops, I can't
hear the strobes. NOTE: This soft noise was present with the original Whelans
still in the wing tip units, so I cannot point to the new Kuntzelman strobes as
generating any noise.
John Markey
Glasair II
http://www.kestrobes.com/
________________________________________
From: Richard Hughes
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Automotive Strobes & LED replacement bulbs
Greetings,
I am asking for a friend who is nearing completion of
his airplane.
Strobe sets cost $900
Thee police cares in the Long Island New York area
have strobes in their marker lights.
Is anyone familiar with them?
Any possibility that they could be used in out
aircraft?
And likewise with the automotive LED replacement
bulbs?
-Rich
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Warning lights with "Push To Test" |
| From: | Gerry Filby <gerf(at)gerf.com> |
In the trainer I flew there was a block of rectangular warning
lights that indicated things like canopy open, alternator fault
etc. You could depress the lense of the warning lamp to light
and thus test the bulbs. Does anyone know of a source of such
- preferrably compatible with B&C's LR-3 Alternator Controller
OV lamp feed.
Thx in advance for any suggestions...
__g__
==========================================================
Gerry Filby gerf(at)gerf.com
Tel: 415 203 9177
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Hi Ernest,
Where are these butane irons avialable??
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A flying
Ernest Christley wrote:
>
>
>
>>Any body had any experiences, good or bad with these cordless soldering irons.
>>
>>
>
>No, but I'd suggest one of the butane powered soldering irons.
>
>Just as portable.
>No batteries to run down while sitting in a drawer, where most soldering
>irons spend the VAST majority of their time.
>Doesn't cool quite as fast, but still really fast. It'll be cool and
>ready to stow away before you can get the cover screwed back onto the
>electo-gizmo that you were working on.
>Can be used as a lighter, to put heat on shrink tubing, for instance.
>The cordless iron will never light your barbecue grill.
>Can be used to punch holes in fabric before rib tying.
>Can be used to solder lugs onto battery cable (Go to one of Bob's
>seminars. He'll demonstrate. Bring your battery cable and you might
>end up with a free lug 8*) I was looking at those cordless irons until
>I saw Bob demonstrate the butane irons abilities.
>Cheap. The super deluxe versions are less than $10.
>Every drugstore on Earth has the refill cans of butane for about $5.
>
>Having limited space to store and limited time to maintain tools, I like
>each to be as versatile as possible. The little butane soldering irons
>are a clear winner.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
Radio Shack, for one, Dick...
http://tinyurl.com/85cfj
I had one of these for several years where I worked...very convenient in
remote areas...best part was the little blow torch tip that came with
it...best thing for shrink tubing. Kinda wish I hadn't left it behind
when I retired....in fact, now that we've been talking about it, think
I'll stop over there this afternoon and get one again! Getting tired of
plugging in the army surplus one I use and wait for it to heat up (and
cool down when done). Nice set of tips with the government issue one,
though
Harley Dixon
Richard Dudley wrote:
>
>Hi Ernest,
>Where are these butane irons avialable??
>
>Regards,
>
>Richard Dudley
>-6A flying
>
>Ernest Christley wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Any body had any experiences, good or bad with these cordless soldering irons.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>No, but I'd suggest one of the butane powered soldering irons.
>>
>>Just as portable.
>>No batteries to run down while sitting in a drawer, where most soldering
>>irons spend the VAST majority of their time.
>>Doesn't cool quite as fast, but still really fast. It'll be cool and
>>ready to stow away before you can get the cover screwed back onto the
>>electo-gizmo that you were working on.
>>Can be used as a lighter, to put heat on shrink tubing, for instance.
>>The cordless iron will never light your barbecue grill.
>>Can be used to punch holes in fabric before rib tying.
>>Can be used to solder lugs onto battery cable (Go to one of Bob's
>>seminars. He'll demonstrate. Bring your battery cable and you might
>>end up with a free lug 8*) I was looking at those cordless irons until
>>I saw Bob demonstrate the butane irons abilities.
>>Cheap. The super deluxe versions are less than $10.
>>Every drugstore on Earth has the refill cans of butane for about $5.
>>
>>Having limited space to store and limited time to maintain tools, I like
>>each to be as versatile as possible. The little butane soldering irons
>>are a clear winner.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
Hi Bob
Below I believe the link below should be to rev E at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection//Crowbar_E.pdf
On page one I see you've revised R5 to 6.04K probably to reduce the
number of different parts. However on page 3 it is still shown as the
old 10K value.
On page 4, paragraph 2 refers to the 12 volt reference measured at (C).
However the diagram on page 3 now shows TWO C points and it shows them
as the revised added capacitors. It might be less confusing to designate
the capacitors in some other way and put point C back as designating the
reference voltage point.
thanks again
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Hi, Could someone please point me in the right direction on the parts needed
>>>for the OV Module, My question is on the Potentiometer R2, the parts list
>>>calls it out as
>>>
>>>3292W501, DigiKey has no such number. I am not electronically qualified to
>>>guess at what it is.
>>>
>>>
>> I'm glad you posted this note. The search phrase to find it in Digikey
>> is 3192W-501. I'm pleased that this error was called to my attention
>> because it highlights another more serious error on my part. The 3292
>>series
>> pots are unnecessarily expensive (15.00/ea!) for this task. I'm going to
>> change the call-out to a 3296W-501 for $2.70 each in single lots.
>>
>> Appreciate the heads-up on this!
>>
>>
>
>
> The drawing has been fixed and Rev D posted at:
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/Crowbar_D.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Warning lights with "Push To Test" |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Gerry -
NKK has a line of lamps that are LED's. I installed two B&C voltage
regulators (dual battery Z-14) and wired them to their own low voltage
lamp. They work great. There is no press-to-test feature, but you could
design a circuit to test them all at once. I did not feel that the
press-to-test feature is all that critical with LED's and their inherent
longevity. Also for the regulators, you will get a light as soon as you
turn the battery switch on for each circuit. If they do not come on, you
should not go anywhere until you know why this is so. Same for oil
pressure, canopy open. For boost high and low, we check for fuel pressure
before start and check the light then.
I have the annunciator circuit on a .pdf if you need it. The resistor
values for the LED's are a little different than the ones Bob shows in a
diagram he published. Check this for a view of the annunciator panel:
http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder-panel/Panel_Test_4
The low volts are off because we have number 2 battery on at about 13.1
volts and are checking the crossfeed function. Normally you would see the
external power light on during our full testing as well, and probably no
crossfeed light.
Cheers,
John Schroeder
Lancair ES - painting
> In the trainer I flew there was a block of rectangular warning
> lights that indicated things like canopy open, alternator fault
> etc. You could depress the lense of the warning lamp to light
> and thus test the bulbs. Does anyone know of a source of such
> - preferrably compatible with B&C's LR-3 Alternator Controller
> OV lamp feed.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Harbor Freight has a couple models.
wrote:
>
>
> Hi Ernest,
> Where are these butane irons avialable??
>
> Regards,
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GPS power adaptor cordGPS power adaptor cord |
I was told by Garmin that the power cord for my 295 could not be used for the 296
because of the wires to charge the batteries in the 296.
Dale Ensing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Little <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Warning lights with "Push To Test" |
Gerry, if you are happy with regular incandescent or LED lamps (like
John Schroeder's), and want a handy circuit to drive them, allow for
dimming and lamp test with an *external* pushbutton, look at the IL-4A
or IL-12A at www.vx-aviation.com
Thanks,
Vern Little
RV-9A
Gerry Filby wrote:
>
>
> In the trainer I flew there was a block of rectangular warning
> lights that indicated things like canopy open, alternator fault
> etc. You could depress the lense of the warning lamp to light
> and thus test the bulbs. Does anyone know of a source of such
> - preferrably compatible with B&C's LR-3 Alternator Controller
> OV lamp feed.
>
> Thx in advance for any suggestions...
>
> __g__
>
> ==========================================================
> Gerry Filby gerf(at)gerf.com
> Tel: 415 203 9177
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 01/27/06 |
Anyone fimiliar with the Zaon flight systems traffic avoidance system ?
Looks promising and has a RS232 output which may make it compatible for
showing traffic on a PFD. And from what I've read it will pick up traffic
pretty much anywhere in the USA.
Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Zaon Traffic System |
Anyone fimiliar with the Zaon flight systems traffic avoidance system ?
Looks promising and has a RS232 output which may make it compatible for
showing traffic on the GRT. And from what I've read it will pick up traffic
pretty much anywhere in the USA.
Randy
Sorry on first post did'nt change subject
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Zaon Traffic System |
Randy,
Their XRX is the newest of the model line and can also detect 8 regions or
sectors around you to give some idea of where the target is in angular
relation to you. I just received this unit as an upgrade from the VRX and
have not installed nor operated yet.
D
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 7:57 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Zaon Traffic System
> <brinker@cox-internet.com>
>
> Anyone fimiliar with the Zaon flight systems traffic avoidance system ?
> Looks promising and has a RS232 output which may make it compatible for
> showing traffic on the GRT. And from what I've read it will pick up
> traffic
> pretty much anywhere in the USA.
>
> Randy
>
> Sorry on first post did'nt change subject
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
Cc:
| Subject: | Automotive Strobes & LED replacement bulbs |
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: John Markey
<>
2/2/2006
Hello John, A common misconception. I will bet that the FAA inspector did
not sign anything that said that airplane was approved as is for night time
VFR. What the inspector signed was a Special Airworthiness Certificate and a
set of Operating Limitations for that specific airplane that was part of the
Special Airworthiness Certificate for that plane.
What the Operating Limitations said was "After completion of Phase I flight
testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in
accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day
only."
This put the responsibility for properly equipping that amateur built
airplane for night time VFR or instrument flight directly into the hands of
the airplane builder. The FAA does not certify amateur built experimental
aircraft for these two conditions of flight because there are no published
certification standards for amateur built experimental aircraft.
This subject has been discussed previously on the list. I have a table that
I will send to any one requesting it that more fully describes the
requirements. That table has also been posted to the web sites of some list
participants. Probably can find where in the archives.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> bulbs |
| Subject: | Re: Automotive Strobes & LED replacement bulbs |
>
>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: John Markey
>
>
><the original
>strobes when the FAA inspector signed the plane off for nighttime
>VFR.....skip......>>
>
>2/2/2006
>
>Hello John, A common misconception. I will bet that the FAA inspector did
>not sign anything that said that airplane was approved as is for night time
>VFR. What the inspector signed was a Special Airworthiness Certificate and a
>set of Operating Limitations for that specific airplane that was part of the
>Special Airworthiness Certificate for that plane.
>
>What the Operating Limitations said was "After completion of Phase I flight
>testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in
>accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day
> only."
>
>This put the responsibility for properly equipping that amateur built
>airplane for night time VFR or instrument flight directly into the hands of
>the airplane builder. The FAA does not certify amateur built experimental
>aircraft for these two conditions of flight because there are no published
>certification standards for amateur built experimental aircraft.
>
>This subject has been discussed previously on the list. I have a table that
>I will send to any one requesting it that more fully describes the
>requirements. That table has also been posted to the web sites of some list
>participants. Probably can find where in the archives.
>
>OC
Send it to me, I'll post it in the Reference Materials
section of aeroelectric.com
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Hi Bob
>
>Below I believe the link below should be to rev E at:
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection//Crowbar_E.pdf
>
>On page one I see you've revised R5 to 6.04K probably to reduce the
>number of different parts. However on page 3 it is still shown as the
>old 10K value.
Correct.
>On page 4, paragraph 2 refers to the 12 volt reference measured at (C).
>However the diagram on page 3 now shows TWO C points and it shows them
>as the revised added capacitors. It might be less confusing to designate
>the capacitors in some other way and put point C back as designating the
>reference voltage point.
Agreed. The "A", "B", and "C" with arrows are keyed with the
text as test points while smaller, standalone bubbles are
revision flags. The neophyte observer could easily mix the
two. I think I'll change "A", "B" and "C" test points to
numbered values.
I've had quite a bit of feedback from individuals who
had various start up problems with this project . . most
had to do with packaging. I'm thinking about offering an
etched circuit board that uses thru-hole parts and
gets the critter down to a 1.25" square board that will
fit into the same package as
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1.pdf
I just ordered a couple hundred potting shells for this
and other projects. I could offer a kit of board and
potting shell which would fix the packaging issues and
improve on probability of having it work right the first
time.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Automotive Strobes & LED replacement bulbs |
Bob...
Could you post a link once you have it up on your site?
Thanks...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III bulbs
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2006 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automotive Strobes & LED replacement
bulbs
bulbs
>
>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: John
Markey
>
>
><the original
>strobes when the FAA inspector signed the plane off for nighttime
>VFR.....skip......>>
>
>2/2/2006
>
>Hello John, A common misconception. I will bet that the FAA inspector did
>not sign anything that said that airplane was approved as is for night time
>VFR. What the inspector signed was a Special Airworthiness Certificate and
a
>set of Operating Limitations for that specific airplane that was part of
the
>Special Airworthiness Certificate for that plane.
>
>What the Operating Limitations said was "After completion of Phase I flight
>testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight
in
>accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day
> only."
>
>This put the responsibility for properly equipping that amateur built
>airplane for night time VFR or instrument flight directly into the hands of
>the airplane builder. The FAA does not certify amateur built experimental
>aircraft for these two conditions of flight because there are no published
>certification standards for amateur built experimental aircraft.
>
>This subject has been discussed previously on the list. I have a table that
>I will send to any one requesting it that more fully describes the
>requirements. That table has also been posted to the web sites of some list
>participants. Probably can find where in the archives.
>
>OC
Send it to me, I'll post it in the Reference Materials
section of aeroelectric.com
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 some questions |
>
>I am trying to shoehorn my needs into a Z-13/8 and have some questions.
>
>Our Europa has a Rotax 914 and want to use a ND alternator on the vacuum
>pad as primary alternator with a LR3C regulator and use the internal
>generator as Aux alternator. The battery will be between 12 and 18 amps
>located aft of the motor and Main-Bus and E-Bus by 7 feet (~ 14 feet of
>wire) run will be using #4 wire.
okay
>1) Will the LR3C be happy if I connect the #6 Bus to my Main Bus, or
>should it really go closer to the battery?
#6 bus? are you talking about the suggested 6-slot fuseholder
as a BATTERY bus? This needs to mount right at the battery
contactor which is right next to the battery.
>2) Will the LR3C be happy if I connect the #3 OV sense wire to my Main
>Bus, or should it really go closer to the battery?
Wire as shown in the diagrams.
>3) Rotax install manual wants difference between terminal C of the
>regulator and the battery to be less than .2V, is this achievable with 12
>feet of wire and a max load of 30 amps? What would happen if more than .2V
>difference?
I believe "C" is the voltage regulation sense wire. They're
simply noting that voltage drops in ship's wiring can mis-inform
the regulator as to the exact status of votlage at the battery and
main bus. When wired with #4 as you've cited above, voltage
drops will be nominal for all considerations. Wire as shown in
the diagram.
>4)Rotax Install manual states" never sever connection between terminal C
>and +B of regulator e.g. by removal of fuse"
>
>Z-16 which is designed for only use of internal Rotax generator looks like
>it disconnects C and +B, Z-13/8 which uses a SD8 as a aux alternator only
>makes or breaks the output of SD-8.
The SD-8's regulator doesn't have a voltage sense wire . . .
>When using Rotax internal generator as Aux on Z-13/8 do I want to follow
>Z-16 and sever, or follow Z-13/8 and leave C and +B connected and only
>make and break output?
If there was a warning against separating C and +B on the original
version of Z-16 I did years ago, I don't recall it. You can simply
move the 22AWG "C" feed wire from "4" on the switch over to the
(+) terminal of the filter capacitor and treat the Rotax alternator/
regulator combo just like an SD-8.
>5) Rotax install manual recommends a 30 amp slow blow fuse on output of
>regulator, is a 16AWG Fuselink as used in Z-16 equivalent to a 30 amp slow
>blow fuse?
Yes.
>6) On Z-13/7 E-Bus has a 20 AWG Fuse-link,16AWG wire, switch and 7 amp
>fuse: Z-32 Heavy Duty E-Bus Feed bumps up wire to 14AWG, a 10 amp fuse and a
>relay instead of a switch
>a) For the 3 additional amp fuse, why did a relay replace switch?
The FAA's "rule of thumb" for protection limit on an always hot
wire in airplanes is 5A breaker. Frankly, I'd be more 'comfortable'
with a 5 or even 7A fuse . . . MUCH faster and less likely to provide a
high-energy fault in a crash. If you upsize the alternate feed from
the battery bus, conventional wisdom suggests a "mini" battery contactor
be co-located with the battery bus.
>b) Why was Fuse-link dropped?
Overkill . . . extremely low order probability of functioning
in a useful way.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Cowan" <peterc(at)pipcom.com> |
Just seeing if I'm still a member.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Zaon Traffic System |
David thanks for the info please keep me informed on how well
this system works for you. And if it accually picks up in remote area's.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Zaon Traffic System
>
>
> Randy,
> Their XRX is the newest of the model line and can also detect 8 regions or
> sectors around you to give some idea of where the target is in angular
> relation to you. I just received this unit as an upgrade from the VRX and
> have not installed nor operated yet.
> D
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 7:57 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Zaon Traffic System
>
>
>> <brinker@cox-internet.com>
>>
>> Anyone fimiliar with the Zaon flight systems traffic avoidance system ?
>> Looks promising and has a RS232 output which may make it compatible for
>> showing traffic on the GRT. And from what I've read it will pick up
>> traffic
>> pretty much anywhere in the USA.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> Sorry on first post did'nt change subject
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Zaon Traffic System |
Randy,
Keep in mind that the unit, and its kin, are "passive" receiver design.
It will not show any other aircraft in a remote area if a ground radar or
TCAS is "not" pinging it in the normal way. All the Zaon/Surecheck models
basically sniff the air for transponder energy from other aircraft. I have
used their VRX. It was very good showing relative distance from you,
altitude differences between you and the target, and altitude trends. And,
would do this for several aircraft in the area.
I did not like 2 things about the VRX.
It did not give you angular indication of the nearby aircraft; you did not
know where to "look" for a close target.
The other was the display. I believe that it is of the earlier generation
LCD. It worked fine if it was mounted directly in front of your eyes. I
had mounted the VRX more directly in front of the co-pilots eyes as I did
not want the unit mounted on my panel top directly in my eye line for
critical pitch and landing control. I do a lot of back country flying and
it would be bad to not see a large rock landing on a rough strip, if the
unit blocked my view for a second.
These units are quite small; I should have mounted in directly in front of
me.
Now, the XRX model... this one is new. Last year at Oshkosh, they did not
have it ready to sell but, made an attractive offer. If one were to buy the
VRX then, they would take it back at full price, when the XRX came out. I
bought it on that basis and returned the VRX last month and they sent me
the XRX. I have not mounted it yet.
They said that it uses a different display. But, I suspect that it is the
same. It doesn't matter as I will mount this new unit in front of me and I
will just have to get used to the little box with a "hump" in my eye sight.
The hump is the new phased array receiving antenna. Now, you are get 8
quadrants of angular target location using a display of small arrows. It
will track 3 aircraft at once that are being interrogated by normal ground
radar. It's algorithm chooses the must critical to you to put on the main
display with the most ranging data to display to you. An example.... if the
unit is tracking 2 aircraft, one is 1 mile out and the other is 3 miles
away. One would think that it would place the closest aircraft into the
main display location. But, it is smarter than that. It reviews the
altitude trends and direction in relation to your flight position. Thus, if
the closest aircraft is moving away from you in altitude or direction, it
is not considered a threat, when the farthest aircraft may have a climbing
trend towards you or the converging heading, then, it gets selected as the
main threat.
All in all, the little units do a very fine job, since they have internal
altimeters as well as altitude data from any mode C transponder. It left me
wanting more..... Thus, the reason that I opted for the XRX at more than 2X
the cost. I treat it as insurance..... the one time that it alerts me to
deviate it will have paid for itself...!! Sorry for spinning out of
control with all the additional details........
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Zaon Traffic System
> <brinker@cox-internet.com>
>
> David thanks for the info please keep me informed on how
> well
> this system works for you. And if it accually picks up in remote area's.
>
> Randy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 12:22 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Zaon Traffic System
>
>
>>
>>
>> Randy,
>> Their XRX is the newest of the model line and can also detect 8 regions
>> or
>> sectors around you to give some idea of where the target is in angular
>> relation to you. I just received this unit as an upgrade from the VRX
>> and
>> have not installed nor operated yet.
>> D
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com>
>> To:
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 7:57 PM
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Zaon Traffic System
>>
>>
>>> <brinker@cox-internet.com>
>>>
>>> Anyone fimiliar with the Zaon flight systems traffic avoidance system ?
>>> Looks promising and has a RS232 output which may make it compatible for
>>> showing traffic on the GRT. And from what I've read it will pick up
>>> traffic
>>> pretty much anywhere in the USA.
>>>
>>> Randy
>>>
>>> Sorry on first post did'nt change subject
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Crook <will(at)willcrook.com> |
Hi Bob & Aeroelectric listers:
This is my first post - hope it goes through. At the point in my Glastar project
that I need to start on my wirebook.
I seem to recall that a lister posted an example of his wirebook that was 100%
in excel, but cannot find that post in the archives. I'm very comfortable working
with excel (being a CPA in real life) would like to start with a good example.
I am planning on using some form of Z-13. So if anyone has their wirebook
in excel (or Word or Powerpoint), I would sure appreciate a sample copy from
which to start creating my own.
Read the 'Connection cover to cover and have enjoyed reading my daily digest.
Bob's concepts are slowly starting to sink in - all this is very new to me.
Thanks in advance for your help. Email address is will(at)willcrook.com.
Will Crook
Glastar
Waynesville, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Crook <will(at)willcrook.com> |
Hi Bob & Aeroelectric listers:
This is my first post - hope it goes through. At the point in my Glastar project
that I need to start on my wirebook.
I seem to recall that a lister posted an example of his wirebook that was 100%
in excel, but cannot find that post in the archives. I'm very comfortable working
with excel (being a CPA in real life) would like to start with a good example.
I am planning on using some form of Z-13. So if anyone has their wirebook
in excel (or Word or Powerpoint), I would sure appreciate a sample copy from
which to start creating my own.
Read the 'Connection cover to cover and have enjoyed reading my daily digest.
Bob's concepts are slowly starting to sink in - all this is very new to me.
Thanks in advance for your help. Email address is will(at)willcrook.com.
Will Crook
Glastar
Waynesville, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
Cc:
| Subject: | Re: Automotive Strobes & LED replacement bulbs |
2/2/2006
Responding to Wayne Hicks.
You wrote: "Just thought you'd like to know....."
Yes Wayne, I would like to know and I'd like other builders to know as well.
There are several lessons that can be learned from your input. Here are just
some, there are probably others:
1) There are gray areas that exist in interpreting and applying the
policies, procedures, and regulations that pertain to amateur built
experimental aircraft.
2) Individual inspectors have their own proclivities and because they
represent the FAA Administrator during the inspection they have considerable
power.
3) Individual FSDO's also have different interpretations of how things must
be done.
4) If a builder suspects that he might be on the cutting edge of some thing
that might raise the hair on the back of the neck of an inspector the
builder might be wise to check it out in advance and even shop around for a
more enlightened inspector.
5) We have a great privilege in being able to build and operate our amateur
built experimental aircraft in an environment that was created, and is being
run, by lawyers and bureaucrats that speak type certificated as a first
language and we should expect a few pot holes in the road from time to time.
6) Exterior lighting falls into the category of those things that don't
affect just the pilot or occupants of the builder's aircraft, but could also
affect the efficiency of the ATC system or the safety of other aircraft as
well. One should expect that category of things to be examined more closely
or even held to type certificated standards by some inspectors even though
the regulations don't specifically require that standard for amateur built
experimental aircraft.
7) The better we understand the rules and how they are being interpreted the
better chance we have of retaining our privilege even though we may get
abused from time to time. Ignorance of the rules, deliberately flouting
them, or arguing in a fashion that causes people outside the amateur built
community to believe that we are up to no good does not help our cause.
OC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hicks, Wayne" <wayne.hicks(at)zeltech.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automotive Strobes & LED replacement bulbs
> Not so fast?
> I know what the rules are and how they are supposed to be interpreted.
> However, we recently had a Cozy III owner who was denied the ability for
> night flight because the DAR required him to have TSO'd lights. He
> didn't;
> he had the LED lights. So the DAR took it upon himself to write the
> restriction into the Cozy III op limits.
>
> The Cozy III builder appealed to the FSDO for his Kentucky region....and
> the
> FSDO upheld the DAR's decision!!!
>
> The Cozy III builder appealed to the EAA -- TO THE EAA -- who promptly
> said,
> "We don't want to get involved." (But we hope you did receive this month's
> glossy-covered magazine.)
>
> Just thought you'd like to know.....
>
> Wayne Hicks
>>
>>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: John
> Markey
>>
>>
>>< were
>>the original
>>strobes when the FAA inspector signed the plane off for nighttime
>>VFR.....skip......>>
>>
>>2/2/2006
>>
>>Hello John, A common misconception. I will bet that the FAA inspector did
>>not sign anything that said that airplane was approved as is for night
>>time
>>VFR. What the inspector signed was a Special Airworthiness Certificate and
> a
>>set of Operating Limitations for that specific airplane that was part of
> the
>>Special Airworthiness Certificate for that plane.
>>
>>What the Operating Limitations said was "After completion of Phase I
>>flight
>>testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight
> in
>>accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day
>> only."
>>
>>This put the responsibility for properly equipping that amateur built
>>airplane for night time VFR or instrument flight directly into the hands
>>of
>>the airplane builder. The FAA does not certify amateur built experimental
>>aircraft for these two conditions of flight because there are no published
>>certification standards for amateur built experimental aircraft.
>>
>>This subject has been discussed previously on the list. I have a table
>>that
>>I will send to any one requesting it that more fully describes the
>>requirements. That table has also been posted to the web sites of some
>>list
>>participants. Probably can find where in the archives.
>>
>>OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | tail light problem |
We are trying to pinpoint a problem with the rudder mounted tail light on a
cessna 172. I think originally the taillight should be fed from the same
rocker switch that feeds the wingtip nav lights (?).We have no wiring
diagram for the aircraft.
Now, after an avionics upgrade, the taillight only responds to the rheostat
for the instrument lighting (the center one). We've got a dimmable tail
light. No response to the nav lights rocker switch. The wing tip nav lights
work ok.
I'd appreciate any ideas.
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: tail light problem |
rd2(at)evenlink.com a crit :
>
>We are trying to pinpoint a problem with the rudder mounted tail light on a
>cessna 172. I think originally the taillight should be fed from the same
>rocker switch that feeds the wingtip nav lights (?).We have no wiring
>diagram for the aircraft.
>Now, after an avionics upgrade, the taillight only responds to the rheostat
>for the instrument lighting (the center one). We've got a dimmable tail
>light. No response to the nav lights rocker switch. The wing tip nav lights
>work ok.
>I'd appreciate any ideas.
>
>
>
Your avionics technician may have messed up the instrument lights and
tail light wires. The terminals on the bus bars or terminal strips may
be adjacent. What about tracing the tail light terminal and trying to
find the correct position ? In a cerified ship, the wires must be labelled.
Or better yet, bring back the airplane to the technician, to have him
correct his mistake ?
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Little <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: tail light problem |
I have no experience with the 172, but if it's similar to the way I
think, then it may be a two-pole switch. One pole switches the Position
(including tail) lights, and the other pole switches the dimmer power.
It sounds like the tail position wire got re-connected to the wrong pole.
A stab in the dark, but easy to check and fix.
Vern Little RV-9A
rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote:
>
> We are trying to pinpoint a problem with the rudder mounted tail light on a
> cessna 172. I think originally the taillight should be fed from the same
> rocker switch that feeds the wingtip nav lights (?).We have no wiring
> diagram for the aircraft.
> Now, after an avionics upgrade, the taillight only responds to the rheostat
> for the instrument lighting (the center one). We've got a dimmable tail
> light. No response to the nav lights rocker switch. The wing tip nav lights
> work ok.
> I'd appreciate any ideas.
>
> Rumen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: tail light problem |
| From: | Deene Ogden <deene(at)us.ibm.com> |
Also, many GA planes have the instrument lights and associated dimmer on
the same switch (pole) as the nav lights so that they come on whenever the
nav lights are selected. Sounds like the shop got the nav/instr light
circuit messed up somehow and connected the taillight to the instrument
light loop downstream of the dimmer.
I would start tracing from the nav switch and see what happened. Also the
Cessna groups can probably get you a lead to a schematic for your 172 to
help.
Deene
Vern Little
Sent by: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
02/03/2006 08:14 AM
Please respond to
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
To
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: AeroElectric-List: tail light problem
I have no experience with the 172, but if it's similar to the way I
think, then it may be a two-pole switch. One pole switches the Position
(including tail) lights, and the other pole switches the dimmer power.
It sounds like the tail position wire got re-connected to the wrong pole.
A stab in the dark, but easy to check and fix.
Vern Little RV-9A
rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote:
>
> We are trying to pinpoint a problem with the rudder mounted tail light
on a
> cessna 172. I think originally the taillight should be fed from the same
> rocker switch that feeds the wingtip nav lights (?).We have no wiring
> diagram for the aircraft.
> Now, after an avionics upgrade, the taillight only responds to the
rheostat
> for the instrument lighting (the center one). We've got a dimmable tail
> light. No response to the nav lights rocker switch. The wing tip nav
lights
> work ok.
> I'd appreciate any ideas.
>
> Rumen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Sultzbach <endspeed(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tail light problem |
I have no input as far as a correction but I am
curious as to how you found this problem. I would
think most folks would never notice their tail light.
As an aside, have you verified that these are the only
two systems involved in the malfunction. Perhaps
another oddball effect is lurking. I applaud your
thoroughness in detecting this problem. I suggest
checking all your systems to ensure they are operating
correctly. Bob
--- rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote:
> rd2(at)evenlink.com
>
> We are trying to pinpoint a problem with the rudder
> mounted tail light on a
> cessna 172. I think originally the taillight should
> be fed from the same
> rocker switch that feeds the wingtip nav lights
> (?).We have no wiring
> diagram for the aircraft.
> Now, after an avionics upgrade, the taillight only
> responds to the rheostat
> for the instrument lighting (the center one). We've
> got a dimmable tail
> light. No response to the nav lights rocker switch.
> The wing tip nav lights
> work ok.
> I'd appreciate any ideas.
>
> Rumen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
OC,
Just as Fred F contributes useful info to the group, may I thank
you for your last epistle on the External/Nav lights issue.
.........Couldn't have been more to the point!
Tahnks again and Happy Landings
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com> |
Thanks for the help guys. I started to check and found closer resistors to
the ones called out and changed the ones per Bobs latest revision. The
module works as it should and cuts the power at 16V.
Ron Triano
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Geoff Evans <hellothaimassage(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Hall effect current sensor location |
I recently purchased a VM-1000C from Vision Microsystems. The directions say
to install the hall effect current sensor in the "cabin area." However, in
order to place it on the B-lead between the alternator and starter solenoid,
I'll have to mount it on the engine side of the firewall.
I called Vision and they said not to mount it on the engine side of the
firewall because the sensor is only rated to 150 degrees. On the other hand,
numerous pictures of other people's airplanes show hall effect sensors for
many different engine monitors (including the VM-1000) mounted on the engine
side of the firewall.
So what's the real story here?
Thanks.
-Geoff
RV-8
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vertex Standard VXA-210 & Aircraft Intercom |
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
Does anyone have a wiring diagram showing how to connect a Vertex Standard VXA-210
to an aircraft intercom?
Thanks!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=9449#9449
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall effect current sensor location |
>
>
>I recently purchased a VM-1000C from Vision Microsystems. The directions say
>to install the hall effect current sensor in the "cabin area." However, in
>order to place it on the B-lead between the alternator and starter solenoid,
>I'll have to mount it on the engine side of the firewall.
>
>I called Vision and they said not to mount it on the engine side of the
>firewall because the sensor is only rated to 150 degrees. On the other hand,
>numerous pictures of other people's airplanes show hall effect sensors for
>many different engine monitors (including the VM-1000) mounted on the engine
>side of the firewall.
>
>So what's the real story here?
The story is that nobody has measured what the
real working environment temperatures are in
the proposed firewall mounting locations. Further,
while the device is rated for 150F operating, transients
of more than that (usually happen immediately following
shutdown) won't kill it.
Risks are low. Give it a try. Let's do some tests during
your fly-off to KNOW what you're dealing with. One of the
new products under development for the 'Connection website
is a 4-channel, 10-bit, A/D converter that runs from the
USB port of a laptop. We'll have a nice graphical user
interface to go with it. The price will be VERY attractive.
It's exactly what you need for this an other interesting
and informative experiments. Perhaps you can be my beta-customer.
In the mean time, anecdotal data suggest that the hall
effect sensors live happily on the firewall as long as they
don't get direct IR radiation from hot exhaust stacks.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Seminar in Norfolk/Chesapeake, VA |
EAA Chapter 339 has enthusiastically launched into an activity
with goals to sell the minimum number of seats for a weekend seminar in
Chesapeake, VA on March 25/26. I thought this to be an ambitious
endeavor because we need to make a go/no-go decision 30 days
in advance to keep our airline travel costs down.
They assured me that they already had 10 folks committed so
I agreed to schedule the event. If we pull it off, it will be
the shortest-coupled program we've tried to organize. List subscribers
in the area might want to consider attending this presentation.
The sign-up sheet is at:
http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Chesapeake.html
As always, satisfaction is guaranteed with all AeroElectric Connection
products. You don't pay for it until after the program and if
you believe the tuition is too high, then pay what you think
it WAS worth.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja(at)starpower.net> |
| Subject: | 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC
input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC? Thanks,
Jim McCulley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob C. " <flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall effect current sensor location |
I have an EIS from Advanced Flight Systems . . . their instruction
said the same thing and I had the same issue . . .
When I asked them . . . their bigger concern was moisture but said it
would be OK to mount it on the FW if I put it in a little enclosure to
protect it. They didn't mention the heat issue . . . I'm sure things
get warm especially on the ground on a hot day?!
Good Luck,
Bob
On 2/3/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >I recently purchased a VM-1000C from Vision Microsystems. The directions say
> >to install the hall effect current sensor in the "cabin area." However, in
> >order to place it on the B-lead between the alternator and starter solenoid,
> >I'll have to mount it on the engine side of the firewall.
> >
> >I called Vision and they said not to mount it on the engine side of the
> >firewall because the sensor is only rated to 150 degrees. On the other hand,
> >numerous pictures of other people's airplanes show hall effect sensors for
> >many different engine monitors (including the VM-1000) mounted on the engine
> >side of the firewall.
> >
> >So what's the real story here?
>
> The story is that nobody has measured what the
> real working environment temperatures are in
> the proposed firewall mounting locations. Further,
> while the device is rated for 150F operating, transients
> of more than that (usually happen immediately following
> shutdown) won't kill it.
>
> Risks are low. Give it a try. Let's do some tests during
> your fly-off to KNOW what you're dealing with. One of the
> new products under development for the 'Connection website
> is a 4-channel, 10-bit, A/D converter that runs from the
> USB port of a laptop. We'll have a nice graphical user
> interface to go with it. The price will be VERY attractive.
> It's exactly what you need for this an other interesting
> and informative experiments. Perhaps you can be my beta-customer.
>
> In the mean time, anecdotal data suggest that the hall
> effect sensors live happily on the firewall as long as they
> don't get direct IR radiation from hot exhaust stacks.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob C. " <flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
I've been using a MFJ-4225 MV with good results . . . it's a switching
power supply . . . available from most armature radio stores. Astron
also make nice power supplies but there more money.
He the MFJ site / Pwr Supply
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-4225MV
Good Luck,
Bob is SE Iowa
On 2/3/06, J. Mcculley wrote:
>
> Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC
> input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC? Thanks,
>
> Jim McCulley
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
>
>
>Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC
>input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC? Thanks,
>
>Jim McCulley
Do you really want 12v . . . or are you interested in
simulating an operating vehicle? 13.8v is a nominal bench
supply setting for emulating bus voltage. Here's a supply
I used to sell until they got so cheap that the margins
didn't fit my business model any more . . .
http://www.radiodan.com/misc/samlex1223.htm
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamps/3747.html
http://www.aaradio.com/cartfile/misc%20html/samlex.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall effect current sensor location |
>
>I have an EIS from Advanced Flight Systems . . . their instruction
>said the same thing and I had the same issue . . .
>
>When I asked them . . . their bigger concern was moisture but said it
>would be OK to mount it on the FW if I put it in a little enclosure to
>protect it. They didn't mention the heat issue . . . I'm sure things
>get warm especially on the ground on a hot day?!
>
>Good Luck,
>Bob
Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would
stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories
about various attempts and observations of the attempts of
others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture
sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific
technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the
term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate.
I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl
just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/
refine that perception.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DonVS" <dsvs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Hall effect current sensor location |
Rob Hickman of Advanced Flight Systems told me to "pot" the entire circuit
board with an electronic type RTV. Dan Checkoway has over 800 hours on his
done this way. His is in the engine compartment.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect current sensor location
>
>I have an EIS from Advanced Flight Systems . . . their instruction
>said the same thing and I had the same issue . . .
>
>When I asked them . . . their bigger concern was moisture but said it
>would be OK to mount it on the FW if I put it in a little enclosure to
>protect it. They didn't mention the heat issue . . . I'm sure things
>get warm especially on the ground on a hot day?!
>
>Good Luck,
>Bob
Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would
stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories
about various attempts and observations of the attempts of
others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture
sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific
technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the
term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate.
I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl
just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/
refine that perception.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall effect current sensor location |
> Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would
> stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories
> about various attempts and observations of the attempts of
> others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture
> sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific
> technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the
> term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate.
>
> I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl
> just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/
> refine that perception.
>
> Bob . . .
For one data point, I have had a Vision Micro Systems supplied hall effect
sensor mounted on an upper engine mount leg for 10 years and 700 hours with
no problems. We used two cushion clamps.
Dick Sipp
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi!
I'm trying to wire in a Oak MS25041-8 Press to Test Sx. Unfortunately it's
during a severe bout of multiple senior moments!
Example can be found at http://tinyurl.com/crxvy
My aim is to press this test Sx and illuminate a panel of Annunciator lights
that are isolated by diodes from each condition feed and check bulb state
prior to start up checks and general switch on. The Sx has 3 connections and
the capability to illuminate the press button on actuation. I can not get it
to illuminate Annunciator Panel.
Any ideas. My thoughts are at best confused now but with the bulb as part of
the circuit is their a resistance load isolating power.
Any help gratefully received. Medication is the next step!
Regards
Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neil K Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
Jim.....by coincidence, yesterday I was closing a Nextel store (they
merged with Sprint and don't need two retail stores so close
together) and in the course of clearing out the "back room" I found
about 5 bench power supplies. I took one for myself and gave one to a
builder friend who I saw last evening. I'm pretty sure the others are
in the "pile" that resulted. Later today I'll go thorough and see if
I can find them. If I can, you're welcome to one.
I'll mail you later and let you know what I find.
Neil
At 09:50 PM 2/3/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC
>input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC? Thanks,
>
>Jim McCulley
>
>
>--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Neubauer" <markn(at)fuse.net> |
| Subject: | Dual Alternator Use |
Being one of Bob's electronic disciples, I was wondering about the use of my
B&C 40amp alternator with the SD-8 together in my GlaStar. Is it OK to use
them both at the same time, yielding an available current output of 48 amps,
or should the SD-8 only be energized when the main alternator is disengaged?
Are there voltage regulation problems having both alternators pumping
electrons into the system busses at slightly different set voltages
(determined by the exact regulator settings)?
Mark Neubauer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja(at)starpower.net> |
| Subject: | RE; 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
Many thanks to Bob C., Bob N. and Neil K. for your responses to the
subject inquiry. Bob N., you are correct that 13.8 V is really what I
should have said. Guess I just assumed some slight degree of adjustment
would normally be available. However,I can live with a maximum of only
12 V, if that is the set-up. Neil, I am looking forward to you finding
that one of those units you mentioned is still available. If so, I will
be delighted to pay for the shipping and your expenses in arranging for
it. Contact me off list if you prefer.
Jim McCulley
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Engine Cowl Temperatures |
| From: | "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
Bob,
I installed some thermocouples in the engine compartment of a turbo
Bonanza in a variety of places.
OAT 107dF. Wind nil. Took off and flew around at high power with the
gear down until I had the cylinders up to the 420dF range.
Did an immediate landing. Taxi about 125 yards and put the airplane into
a closed T-hangar.
I then monitored the temps for the next 45 minutes.
At about 25 to 30 minutes the temps all reached peak from heat soak from
the engine core.
The surface temperature of the magneto case was the hottest temperature
I measured. It was around 222d F. I assume the core was a bit hotter.
The rest of the temps, including the local ambient inside the cowling
were lower.
Regards, George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob McDevitt" <mcdevitt(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Certified Aircraft Rewiring |
I am in the middle of an engine overhaul and I thought this might be a good
time to do some rewireing.
My question is: The lead from the alternator goes into the cabin to a 50 amp
circuit breaker
The battery lead goes to the ammeter shunt and then into the bus. I'm
thinking I should eliminate the 50 amp circuit breaker and connect the
alternator to the battery at the ammeter shunt.
This is a certified aircraft, Aeronca Sedan, 1948 vintage and the wiring
bears no relationship to the factory drawings because the engine has been
changed to a 0-360 and the gererator replaced with an alternator.
Am I still legal if I do this, and is it worth while? At present I get a
small amount of noise/interference, certainly liveable.
Thanks for your help.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King AK-450 ELT - Remote Battery Included? |
The small battery is already in the remote. JR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Certified Aircraft Rewiring |
On 4 Feb 2006, at 17:15, Bob McDevitt wrote:
>
>
> I am in the middle of an engine overhaul and I thought this might
> be a good
> time to do some rewireing.
> My question is: The lead from the alternator goes into the cabin to
> a 50 amp
> circuit breaker
> The battery lead goes to the ammeter shunt and then into the bus. I'm
> thinking I should eliminate the 50 amp circuit breaker and connect the
> alternator to the battery at the ammeter shunt.
> This is a certified aircraft, Aeronca Sedan, 1948 vintage and the
> wiring
> bears no relationship to the factory drawings because the engine
> has been
> changed to a 0-360 and the gererator replaced with an alternator.
> Am I still legal if I do this, and is it worth while? At present I
> get a
> small amount of noise/interference, certainly liveable.
> Thanks for your help.
Bob,
I assume by your e-mail address that you live in Canada, and that
this is a Canadian registered aircraft. I also assume that you have
not put it into the Owner Maintenance category.
Removing the circuit protection for the alternator lead is a
significant design change. This design change would need to be
approved via an STC, in my opinion. If you were intending to keep
the 50 amp CB, and simply change the wire routing, perhaps an AME
would be prepared to sign off on it as a repair, completed in
accordance with "specified data". Specified data, as defined in the
Airworthiness Manual 571.06 includes FAA AC 43.13-1.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part5/
Standards/571s.htm#571_06
If this is a US registered aircraft, you possibly could do it under a
337 Field Approval, but there is no similar process in Canada.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | re: Airline style 2-pin 12v power outlet jacks... |
| From: | Greg Campbell <gregcampbellusa(at)gmail.com> |
I found some additional information since my original posting Wednesday:
The airline style power plug is called an EmPower Connector.
I'm looking for a source of the EmPower Jack's to go along with it.
This photo shows the plug side of the connector:
http://support.gateway.com/s/Mobile/peripher/6500687/6500687mvr4.shtml
Note - there are four pins, not just the two power pins.
I'm looking for a source for the jack side of the EmPower connector
so I can add one or two to my plane. The connection is much
more secure & compact than a cigarette lighter. It has a snap catch
that you have to push a button to release.
Any suggestions on where I can purchase these?
Or tech specs for connecting the two "data pins" ?
Thanks,
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Certified Aircraft Rewiring |
Good Afternoon Bob,
The type certificate for the 15AC is now held by some folks up in Alaska.
The engine you have is not mentioned in the TCDS. Therefore, there must be an
STC that was used for the installation. That STC, or another one for the
alternator installation, should include data as to how your airplane should be
wired. If the change you want to make differs from the way it was done for
the STC involved, you might check with whoever has been doing the annual on
your airplane. It is possible that the change could be considered a minor
alteration. If that is the case, the change could be made and a log book entry
made by a properly certificated mechanic. If your IA agrees that the change is
minor, you are home free. If your IA does not agree that the change is minor,
you could shop for another IA or consider applying for a local approval for
your change.
Any help at all?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 2/4/2006 4:36:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,
mcdevitt(at)sympatico.ca writes:
This is a certified aircraft, Aeronca Sedan, 1948 vintage and the wiring
bears no relationship to the factory drawings because the engine has been
changed to a 0-360 and the generator replaced with an alternator.
Am I still legal if I do this, and is it worth while? At present I get a
small amount of noise/interference, certainly liveable.
Thanks for your help.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Check the archives. There have been numerous postings on this.
Cheers,
John Schroeder
wrote:
>
>
> Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC
> input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC? Thanks,
>
> Jim McCulley
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures |
George Braly wrote:
> I installed some thermocouples in the engine compartment of a turbo
> Bonanza in a variety of places.
>...
> The surface temperature of the magneto case was the hottest temperature
> I measured. It was around 222d F. I assume the core was a bit hotter.
>
> The rest of the temps, including the local ambient inside the cowling
> were lower.
It is nice to see people who actively seek truth.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
In a message dated 02/03/2006 10:20:21 PM Central Standard Time,
nuckollsr(at)cox.net writes:
>Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC
>input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC?
>>>
Might want to look at this 13.8, 20 amp supply:
http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=5386+PS
They also have cheaper ones at 10 and 4 amp output at 13.8 VDC. I've bought
stuff from these folks a number of times and never been dissapointed. I
bought a 12 VDC supply from them for about $50 IIRC, and used it for a lot of my
initial tryout on all kinds of stuff and it worked just fine...
>From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips RV-6A N51PW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Dual Alternator Use |
Mark,
The voltage regulator of the SD-8 is set about 1v less than the normal buss
voltage from your 40 amp main. If the main goes off line the voltage will
sag and the SD-8 will kick in. That means they will both not produce power
at the same time.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Neubauer
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:06 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual Alternator Use
Being one of Bob's electronic disciples, I was wondering about the use of my
B&C 40amp alternator with the SD-8 together in my GlaStar. Is it OK to use
them both at the same time, yielding an available current output of 48 amps,
or should the SD-8 only be energized when the main alternator is disengaged?
Are there voltage regulation problems having both alternators pumping
electrons into the system busses at slightly different set voltages
(determined by the exact regulator settings)?
Mark Neubauer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry McFarland <larrymc(at)qconline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King AK-450 ELT - Remote Battery Included? |
Tim,
My Lithium battery was pre-installed in the remote panel-mount and I was
to replace it
just to be sure. The life expectancy for this cell was stated at 8
years, so I marked it 2005
and reinstalled the battery.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Tim Olson wrote:
>
>Can anyone tell me if the Lithium battery is included already in the
>remote on the AK-450 ELT? I have the remote unit installed and need
>to send someone shopping for batteries for the ELT today and I'm
>not sure if I need to send them out for the 1 DL 1/3 NB Lithium AND the
>D-Cell batteries, or if the lithium is already in the remote....which
>is mounted in a hard to reach area from the back.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Engine Cowl Temperatures |
> George Braly wrote:
>
> > I installed some thermocouples in the engine compartment of
> a turbo
> >Bonanza in a variety of places.
> >...
> > The surface temperature of the magneto case was the hottest
> >temperature I measured. It was around 222d F. I assume
> the core was a bit hotter.
> >
> > The rest of the temps, including the local ambient inside
> the cowling
> > were lower.
>
> It is nice to see people who actively seek truth.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
I agree completely about seeking facts, thanks George.
Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I shut down, unless it is
10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat for a few hours.
Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up until
it can move slightly to the side. It is amazing how much steam comes up out
of there. Where do you suppose that steam would end up if you leave the
dipstick in tight?
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 712 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hall effect current sensor location |
Is'nt a connection to a good hot 12v battery sufficient for the
layman ? I can see the need for a bench test unit if for a on going
business.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect current sensor location
>
>
>
>>
>>I have an EIS from Advanced Flight Systems . . . their instruction
>>said the same thing and I had the same issue . . .
>>
>>When I asked them . . . their bigger concern was moisture but said it
>>would be OK to mount it on the FW if I put it in a little enclosure to
>>protect it. They didn't mention the heat issue . . . I'm sure things
>>get warm especially on the ground on a hot day?!
>>
>>Good Luck,
>>Bob
>
> Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would
> stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories
> about various attempts and observations of the attempts of
> others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture
> sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific
> technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the
> term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate.
>
> I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl
> just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/
> refine that perception.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator Use |
>
>Being one of Bob's electronic disciples, I was wondering about the use of my
>B&C 40amp alternator with the SD-8 together in my GlaStar. Is it OK to use
>them both at the same time, yielding an available current output of 48 amps,
>or should the SD-8 only be energized when the main alternator is disengaged?
>Are there voltage regulation problems having both alternators pumping
>electrons into the system busses at slightly different set voltages
>(determined by the exact regulator settings)?
>
>Mark Neubauer
Under what circumstances do you think you will need 48 amps?
It's exceedingly difficult to make two alternators . . . especially
different sizes/styles to proportionately share a load. I've
designed special regulators for that purpose, the first back
in the Cessna 303 Crusader days.
Induced quite a bit of little-value-added hardware to the
airplane along with one more black box to go belly up to the
tune of $400/pop
If you really NEED to parallel two alternators, let's talk
some more.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Press to Test |
><gholland@gemini-resourcing.com>
>
>Hi!
>
>I'm trying to wire in a Oak MS25041-8 Press to Test Sx. Unfortunately it's
>during a severe bout of multiple senior moments!
>
>Example can be found at http://tinyurl.com/crxvy
>
>My aim is to press this test Sx and illuminate a panel of Annunciator lights
>that are isolated by diodes from each condition feed and check bulb state
>prior to start up checks and general switch on. The Sx has 3 connections and
>the capability to illuminate the press button on actuation. I can not get it
>to illuminate Annunciator Panel.
>
>Any ideas. My thoughts are at best confused now but with the bulb as part of
>the circuit is their a resistance load isolating power.
>
>Any help gratefully received. Medication is the next step!
>
>Regards
>
>Gerry
The press-to-test feature of this fixture is designed
to accommodate only the lamp contained within the fixture.
I have crafted circuits that would sense when the PTT
feature is actuated and used that signal to do other things
as well. Such a circuit could be used to initiate the PTT
function for the annunciator panel. As you've noted,
the self-contained lamp is ALWAYS in series with the
fixture's power draw hence, if this lamp burns out, you
loose that lamp plus press-to-test capability. But then,
it would certainly alert you to the fact that the one lamp
is burned out . . . cause ALL the lamps would fail PTT.
I'd need to know more about what kind of signal tests your
annunciator panel lights and what kind of signal illuminates
the lamp in your MS25041-8 fixture.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall effect current sensor location |
>
>
> > Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would
> > stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories
> > about various attempts and observations of the attempts of
> > others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture
> > sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific
> > technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the
> > term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate.
> >
> > I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl
> > just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/
> > refine that perception.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>For one data point, I have had a Vision Micro Systems supplied hall effect
>sensor mounted on an upper engine mount leg for 10 years and 700 hours with
>no problems. We used two cushion clamps.
I would have bet some pretty good money that your
"experiment" would have been successful.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Hall effect current sensor location |
>
>Rob Hickman of Advanced Flight Systems told me to "pot" the entire circuit
>board with an electronic type RTV. Dan Checkoway has over 800 hours on his
>done this way. His is in the engine compartment.
Yuk! Moisture PROOFING is a mixture of art and science
and many attempts at sealing and/or potting can actually
make vulnerability to effects of moisture worse.
Until we make some temperature measurements that suggest
otherwise, I gotta believe that the critter will live
just fine on the firewall.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Engine Cowl Temperatures |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I installed some thermocouples in the engine compartment of a turbo
>Bonanza in a variety of places.
>
>OAT 107dF. Wind nil. Took off and flew around at high power with the
>gear down until I had the cylinders up to the 420dF range.
>
>Did an immediate landing. Taxi about 125 yards and put the airplane into
>a closed T-hangar.
>
>I then monitored the temps for the next 45 minutes.
>
>At about 25 to 30 minutes the temps all reached peak from heat soak from
>the engine core.
>
>The surface temperature of the magneto case was the hottest temperature
>I measured. It was around 222d F. I assume the core was a bit hotter.
>
>The rest of the temps, including the local ambient inside the cowling
>were lower.
That jives with my recollection of some studies another
engineer at Electromech did about 25 years ago . . on our
company owned A36. I wasn't directly involved with the work
and had no reason to do a gray-matter stash of the data.
I'm sure we've done a boat-load of temperature surveys on
Bonanzas at RAC. I'll dig around in the reports file and see
what I can find.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: re: Airline style 2-pin 12v power outlet jacks... |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Greg -
Are you hung up on 4 pins and a locking mechanism?
If not, they make three pin jobbies (jacks & plugs) that have a good lock
and are more compact than a cigarette lighter. Check these. They are XLR
audio connectors for hooking microphones & speakers up to big sound
systems, and for the little gooseneck, 2 watt console lights. They are
either 3 pin or 4 pin and can carry about 5 amps. The lock latch is on the
jack (female):
https://www.alliedelec.com/Search/SearchResults.asp?SearchQuery=XLR&Submit=find+it%21
http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder-panel/InstrPanel_WireProg1_8
We installed two on the panel for map lights, one in the overhead and one
on each side of the rear seat for map lights.
The problem of getting away from the classic lighter jack for getting
power to removeable devices is that you will have to wire each device to
be compatible with the jack. "Sorry junior, we don't have a spare battery
on board you can't plug that MP3 player in ..." Hmmmmmnnn ... now that
aint a bad idea after all.
John
wrote:
> I'm looking for a source for the jack side of the EmPower connector
> so I can add one or two to my plane. The connection is much
> more secure & compact than a cigarette lighter. It has a snap catch
> that you have to push a button to release.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Dual Alternator Use |
>
>Mark,
>
>The voltage regulator of the SD-8 is set about 1v less than the normal buss
>voltage from your 40 amp main. If the main goes off line the voltage will
>sag and the SD-8 will kick in. That means they will both not produce power
>at the same time.
That's the installation rationale for the SD-20 when used with
an SB-1 regulator and wired per Figure Z-12. This philosophy
does not apply to the SD-8 in any of the recommended installations.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Press to Test |
Bob Hi!
As ever thanks for your useful response.
> I'd need to know more about what kind of signal tests your
> annunciator panel lights and what kind of signal illuminates
> the lamp in your MS25041-8 fixture.
I honesty I had not thought the whole thing through at all!
I'm applying a test voltage to my various warning lamps using diode
protected circuits and a normal press to make contact Sx.
It was one of those days!
Regards
Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | EmPower jack source - was Airline style 2-pin 12v power |
outlet jacks...
| From: | Greg Campbell <gregcampbellusa(at)gmail.com> |
John,
I already have a bunch of cigarette lighter outlets,
so the EmPower jack would be in addition to those.
There are lots of good 3 and 4 pin latching connectors,
but I'm trying to find the "other half" of the new airline standard "EmPower
connector".
I figured somebody on this list would know where to get one or two.
I have a Kensington Universal Power Supply that plugs securely
into an "EmPower connection", as well as a cigarette lighter plug
or 120vac power cord. So this one slim power supply will work
in the car, plane, or hotel room.
us.kensington.com/html/6368.html
<http://www.us.kensington.com/html/6368.html>
It's one slick little power supply and I got several of them at Costco.
I plan to keep one with each laptop, and hardwire one into the plane.
The neat thing is once it's powered up - you don't have to get to the brick
itself
to change the power settings. You slip on the appropriate "Smart Tip" and
the
tip will select and provide the correct voltage. It will "up convert" my
12vdc airplane power
to the 18vdc x 120 Watts that my laptop requires. Or I can pop the tip off
and replace it with one that fits my cell phone and it will put out 5vdc.
Or, you
can put on the splitter and do both at once!
In the past, I used to run my laptop in the plane from a kluge of an
inverter
to go 12vdc -> 120vac, and then used the laptop's AC adapter to go from
120vac -> 18vdc. But that was a pain! Cables everywhere - a noisy fan
on the inverter - and it produced "modified sine wave" AC, which I suspect
somehow killed one or two expen$ive laptop batteries - because they never
seemed to hold much of a charge after doing this.
This is a much cleaner solution - and the Kensington comes with both
cigarette lighter adapter as well as the EmPower connection. Since the
EmPower connection has a latch & four pins (two for power, two for data).
The power pins appear to be smallish, but gold plated & high quality.
And they are obviously rated to handle the 10 Amps plus that would be
required to meet the 120W continuous power output rating. I figured the
best
solution would be to locate a source for the EmPower jack and wire that into
the plane. Then I could securely click the Kensington power supply into
that
and easily remove it if I needed to work on it or use it in a rental car,
etc..
So the question remains - does anyone have a source for the EmPower jack ?
And the other half of the question - will I have to "program" the EmPower
jack's
two data pins so that it will willingly provide power to the gizmo I plug
into it?
support.gateway.com/s/Mobile/peripher/6500687/6500687mvr4.shtml
I vaguely remember reading something about "smart power distribution" in
which
the consumer had to identify itself and it's power requirements before the
power outlet
would actually provide the power. This was to provide two protections:
1) the consumer won't overload the supplier, and
2) the supplier would recognize when the consumer was drawing more
than expected
(e.g. the source might be capable of providing 10 Amps, but would refuse to
provide
more if the device tells it never needs more than 2 Amps, then it would shut
off power
to the device if it started drawing more than 2 Amps)
Depending on how they do this - I might need to program the two data pins so
they
will allow the Kensington to draw up to say 12 Amps at 12 volts. (Allowing
for inefficiency.)
Anyway - any sources would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator Use |
>From: "Mark Neubauer" <markn(at)fuse.net> Subject: Dual Alternator Use
>Being one of Bob's electronic disciples, I was wondering about the use
of my
>B&C 40amp alternator with the SD-8 together in my GlaStar. Is it OK to use
>them both at the same time, yielding an available current output of 48 amps,
>or should the SD-8 only be energized when the main alternator is
>disengaged?
.....>
>Are there voltage regulation problems having both alternators pumping
>electrons into the system busses at slightly different set voltages
>(determined by the exact regulator settings)?
>
>Mark Neubauer
Mark:
.....What about running two alternators simultaneously in parallel but isolated.
The 40 amp does the Yeoman's duty, lets call that the (A) system, and the
SD8 back-up runs say 5 amps of other (B) system items. If the SD8 died
you still have the 40 amp. If the SD8 died you would still have system (A).
If you wanted you could manually cross feed the (B) buss and (A) buss in
event one system died (after suitable load shedding, e.g., turning stuff off).
This is the way the Big (jet) Boys do it. Parallel but isolated.
Cons:
.....-Wt. (1lb) for small 0.8-1.2 amp/hr back-up (B) system battery
.....-You may be able to use a capacitor vs. a battery for the SD8
http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=SLA-12V1-3
http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=SLA-12V0-8
Pros:
.....-True redundancy with isolated systems working in parallel
.....-Reduced load on the (A) system alternator (B sys not dead wt.)
.....-One system will not affect the other (good thing)
THE MARINE SOLUTION
If you MUST have dual sync'ed alternators consider the SD-20 and a
marine voltage regulator. I suggest the SD-20 to keep the dual
alternators of the same type. Marine regulators have been paralleling
dual alternators for decades. They don't cost much more than one so
called advanced regulator. They have all the protection you could
every want: Now having different models of alternators with different
power output potential may pose a challenge, but the marine
companies no doubt have a solution. They may be able to parallel the
SD-8 and L-40 even? You would have to ask. (food for thought only).
http://www.amplepower.com/products/sarv3/index.html
http://www.amplepower.com/products/dual_alt/index.html
http://www.amplepower.com/products/sysnav_ic/index.html
http://www.sterling-power.com/
(select>product>adv alternator reg>pro digital)
I am NOT saying this is the way to go about it, but I'm trying to open
your mind. Marine apps. have been making real rugged, reliable and
redundant DC electrical systems for a long time. If you get into real
Air Transport design and equipment it's AC, paralleled AC systems,
not readily applicable to our single engine DC systems. Boat stuff
has some of the most applicable ideas to little planes. (food/thought)
BIG PICTURE, MISS MATCHED IDEAS AND PLANES:
The marine stuff has lots of ideas for super systems. I personally have
only one I-VR alternator & battery. The obsession with air transport
category electics in a single engine plane is overkill, and can distract
from an overall goal IMHO (simple, light and cost effective). Regardless
what you do, you have one engine and many single failure points that
are way more critical to your health than wires in your plane.
It is just a thought, take it or leave it, intelligent comments welcomed.
Flame Suit On, Cheers George
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JOHNATHAN MACY <bushpilot(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Hall Effect Current Sensor Location |
Bob,
My electrical design will be the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split Bus.
The engine will be an IO-320 with a FADEC control. I am also planning on using
two Hall Effect Current Sensors that will feed into the Blue Mountain EFIS.
Question: Is the best place to locate the current sensors on the output side (B)
on each alternator similar to what you show in Z-12?
Thanks,
Johnathan
Glastar #5731
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Engine Cowl Temperatures |
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Alex
Peterson"
<<.....skip......Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I shut
down, unless it is
10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat for a few hours.
Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up until
it can move slightly to the side. It is amazing how much steam comes up out
of there. Where do you suppose that steam would end up if you leave the
dipstick in tight? Alex Peterson>>
2/5/2006
Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start opening my
dipstick cap also.
How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead of water vapor?
I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass to see how
greasy it is.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect Current Sensor Location |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>My electrical design will be the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split
>Bus. The engine will be an IO-320 with a FADEC control. I am also planning
>on using two Hall Effect Current Sensors that will feed into the Blue
>Mountain EFIS.
>
>Question: Is the best place to locate the current sensors on the output
>side (B) on each alternator similar to what you show in Z-12?
Depends on what you want to measure along with your
understanding of what the readings mean. I've seen
hall effects installed over battery cables, bus feeders
and alternator b-leads. Each location provides a reading
that has some behavior and significance useful for
troubleshooting the ailing system but none provide
data useful for operating the airplane.
My personal choice would be to monitor alternator
output (sensors on b-leads). But if I had to work on
an airplane where the sensors were someplace else,
it would be essential to know WHERE the sensors are
so that the readings have diagnostic significance.
It's a toss of the coin and/or a purely personal
choice.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Engine Cowl Temperatures |
| From: | "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
Keep in mind that if you get the oil hot enough on each flight to boil
off the water in the oil - - then opening the dip stick filler tube
appears to accomplish very little.
I like to see the oil temp get to at least 180-190dF above 5000 feet on
each flight to make sure the water turns to vapor and out the breather
tube.
I think a lot of these nifty little "tricks" - - that have accumulated
over the years really turn out to be based on very little data. In many
cases there appears to not really even be a theoretical basis as to why
the practice is better. (Turbo cool down 5 minute waits, is another
example.)
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 10:01 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Alex
Peterson"
<<.....skip......Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I shut
down, unless it is
10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat for a few hours.
Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up
until
it can move slightly to the side. It is amazing how much steam comes up
out
of there. Where do you suppose that steam would end up if you leave the
dipstick in tight? Alex Peterson>>
2/5/2006
Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start opening my
dipstick cap also.
How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead of water
vapor?
I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass to see how
greasy it is.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vincent Welch" <welchvincent(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Engine Cowl Temperatures |
Just a quick question Alex. As the engine cools with the dipstick open,
won't that just suck more (possibly moisture laden) air back into the oil
sump?
Vince
>From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: ,
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures
>Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:00:36 -0500
>
>
>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Alex
>Peterson"
>
><<.....skip......Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I shut
>down, unless it is
>10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat for a few hours.
>Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up until
>it can move slightly to the side. It is amazing how much steam comes up
>out
>of there. Where do you suppose that steam would end up if you leave the
>dipstick in tight? Alex Peterson>>
>
>2/5/2006
>
>Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start opening my
>dipstick cap also.
>
>How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead of water
>vapor?
>I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass to see how
>greasy it is.
>
>OC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall effect current sensor location |
Brinker wrote:
>
> Is'nt a connection to a good hot 12v battery sufficient for the
> layman ? I can see the need for a bench test unit if for a on going
> business.
When testing out your panel it is nice to have an adjustable power
supply. First, it doesn't do your battery any good to run it down and
recharge unless it is a deep-cycle battery.
With a variable bench supply you can test things at various voltages
such as 13.8V (alternator working), 12.5V (full battery), and 10.5V
(dead battery). You will be surprised at how badly many pieces of
equipment work at low voltage and you may want to resize your battery to
ensure that you have sufficient voltage for your specified endurance period.
You can also hook your bench supply up to the alternator 'B' lead and
test your loadmeter, battery charging, etc. By varying the voltage from
the bench supply and watching the field current you can verify that the
voltage regulator is functioning normally.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Press to Test |
><gholland@gemini-resourcing.com>
>
>Bob Hi!
>
>As ever thanks for your useful response.
>
> > I'd need to know more about what kind of signal tests your
> > annunciator panel lights and what kind of signal illuminates
> > the lamp in your MS25041-8 fixture.
>
>I honesty I had not thought the whole thing through at all!
>
>I'm applying a test voltage to my various warning lamps using diode
>protected circuits and a normal press to make contact Sx.
>It was one of those days!
The press to test lamp fixture has a schematic that looks
like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/PTT_Dim_Fixture.jpg
The details I was needing to see if your single-ptt-button
thing would work was how your lights are wired. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Ganged_PTT_Scheme_1.gif
Here . . . ALL lamps are pulled up from ground to illumnate.
In this case, you can used the PTT feature in the MS25041 fixture
to drive a transistor that will cause ALL annunciators to receive
PTT power when depressing the single fixture. If any of your
lamps are pull-down-to-ground, then you need a second transistor
and a few more parts to drive the whole array of lamps.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Engine Cowl Temperatures |
Yep, I would agree, if the Oil temp is above in the operating range, and
based upon Georges data, that the temp outside after shutdown was close to
the boiling stage, then all the water should have be evaporated. Opening
the dip stick cause me two concerns. It allows FOD (bugs come to mind) and
condensated moisture a place to get into the engine. That little dip stick
makes for a good conduit for both.
Oil won't COKE until it's way hotter than our operating temps and with
today's oils, I suspect that the "blend" compensates for any tendency to
COKE anyway.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vincent
Welch
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures
-->
Just a quick question Alex. As the engine cools with the dipstick open,
won't that just suck more (possibly moisture laden) air back into the oil
sump?
Vince
>From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: ,
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures
>Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:00:36 -0500
>
>
>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Alex
>Peterson"
>
><<.....skip......Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I
>shut down, unless it is 10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat
>for a few hours.
>Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up
>until it can move slightly to the side. It is amazing how much steam
>comes up out of there. Where do you suppose that steam would end up if
>you leave the dipstick in tight? Alex Peterson>>
>
>2/5/2006
>
>Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start opening my
>dipstick cap also.
>
>How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead of water
>vapor?
>I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass to see how
>greasy it is.
>
>OC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures |
George nailed it.....
99% of internal case moisture is blasted out the breather as all the
internal thrashing is going on at elevated temps. I suspect the moisture
vapor seen at the dipstick opening is very minor and is probably what was
trapped in the tube itself.
I do like to opening the top cowl door, oil fill in my case, as that lets
latent heat escape faster and may, in the long run, be easier on all the
non-metal stuff that is associated with the top of an engine. However, if
your top cowl door is pretty high, out of eye sight, it maybe easy to forget
to close it for the next quickie flight. I took a block of soft foam, cut a
slit in it, and slide the edge of the door into the slit. This way the door
stands straight up in easy eye sight as well as the foam has to be removed,
etc. Never forgotten to close it this way.....
D
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vincent Welch" <welchvincent(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:11 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures
>
>
> Just a quick question Alex. As the engine cools with the dipstick open,
> won't that just suck more (possibly moisture laden) air back into the oil
> sump?
>
>
> Vince
>
>
>>From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
>>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>To: ,
>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures
>>Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:00:36 -0500
>>
>>
>>
>>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Alex
>>Peterson"
>>
>><<.....skip......Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I shut
>>down, unless it is
>>10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat for a few hours.
>>Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up until
>>it can move slightly to the side. It is amazing how much steam comes up
>>out
>>of there. Where do you suppose that steam would end up if you leave the
>>dipstick in tight? Alex Peterson>>
>>
>>2/5/2006
>>
>>Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start opening my
>>dipstick cap also.
>>
>>How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead of water
>>vapor?
>>I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass to see how
>>greasy it is.
>>
>>OC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator Use |
>
> >From: "Mark Neubauer" <markn(at)fuse.net> Subject: Dual Alternator Use
>
> >Being one of Bob's electronic disciples, I was wondering about
> the use of my
> >B&C 40amp alternator with the SD-8 together in my GlaStar. Is it
> OK to use
> >them both at the same time, yielding an available current output
> of 48 amps,
> >or should the SD-8 only be energized when the main alternator is
> >disengaged?
>.....>
> >Are there voltage regulation problems having both alternators pumping
> >electrons into the system busses at slightly different set voltages
> >(determined by the exact regulator settings)?
> >
> >Mark Neubauer
>
>
>Mark:
>
> .....What about running two alternators simultaneously in parallel but
> isolated.
>The 40 amp does the Yeoman's duty, lets call that the (A) system, and the
>SD8 back-up runs say 5 amps of other (B) system items. If the SD8 died
>you still have the 40 amp. If the SD8 died you would still have system (A).
>If you wanted you could manually cross feed the (B) buss and (A) buss in
>event one system died (after suitable load shedding, e.g., turning stuff off).
>This is the way the Big (jet) Boys do it. Parallel but isolated.
>
> Cons:
>.....-Wt. (1lb) for small 0.8-1.2 amp/hr back-up (B) system battery
> .....-You may be able to use a capacitor vs. a battery for the SD8
> http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=SLA-12V1-3
> http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=SLA-12V0-8
>
>
> Pros:
>.....-True redundancy with isolated systems working in parallel
>.....-Reduced load on the (A) system alternator (B sys not dead wt.)
>.....-One system will not affect the other (good thing)
>
> "Parallel but isolated" doesn't bring a lucid image to mind
> but I think Figure Z-14 is what you're talking about.
>
>THE MARINE SOLUTION
> If you MUST have dual sync'ed alternators consider the SD-20 and a
>marine voltage regulator. I suggest the SD-20 to keep the dual
>alternators of the same type. Marine regulators have been paralleling
>dual alternators for decades. They don't cost much more than one so
>called advanced regulator. They have all the protection you could
>every want: Now having different models of alternators with different
>power output potential may pose a challenge, but the marine
>companies no doubt have a solution. They may be able to parallel the
>SD-8 and L-40 even? You would have to ask. (food for thought only).
>
> http://www.amplepower.com/products/sarv3/index.html
> http://www.amplepower.com/products/dual_alt/index.html
>http://www.amplepower.com/products/sysnav_ic/index.html
> http://www.sterling-power.com/
>(select>product>adv alternator reg>pro digital)
>
>I am NOT saying this is the way to go about it, but I'm trying to open
>your mind. Marine apps. have been making real rugged, reliable and
>redundant DC electrical systems for a long time. If you get into real
>Air Transport design and equipment it's AC, paralleled AC systems,
>not readily applicable to our single engine DC systems. Boat stuff
> has some of the most applicable ideas to little planes. (food/thought)
The regulators described are intended to PARALLEL two
alternators (running on perhaps different engines a-la
C-337, Beech Baron, etc.) to a single bus structure
and single battery or batteries in parallel. The engine
driven power sources drive a common bus full time
and cannot be isolated.
> BIG PICTURE, MISS MATCHED IDEAS AND PLANES:
> The marine stuff has lots of ideas for super systems. I personally have
>only one I-VR alternator & battery. The obsession with air transport
>category electics in a single engine plane is overkill, and can distract
>from an overall goal IMHO (simple, light and cost effective). Regardless
>what you do, you have one engine and many single failure points that
>are way more critical to your health than wires in your plane.
Very few machines being crafted for the OBAM aircraft
community can make use of Z-14 style systems. Dual
electrical systems make sense only when you have dual
cockpit systems both capable of launching into the
worst you intend to traverse. I can't imagine any
airplane short of a fully decked out LAIVP making
good use of Z-14. However, if one plans to have two
alternators, driving them from a common regulator scheme
into a single battery structure doesn't make sense
either. The Main/Aux alternator schemes described in
the Z-Figures ASSUME that at least one alternator
(main) will easily carry ALL of the maximum anticipated
running loads without support from the other alternator
(aux). The duties of the aux alternator are to pick up
minimal needed loads in the RARE event that the main
alternator becomes unavailable.
Paralleling multiple alternators to run full time
into a single bus structure is exactly what the
"big guys" do. Further, they may also depend on both
generators being on line to carry normal max running
loads. This architecture leads to a variety problems
with failure modes, meeting load analysis goals and
supplying 30 minutes of snort when a system designed
to suffer emergencies goes completely dark.
If one plans an all-electric panel, then there's a
vacuum pump pad open. It seems a waste not to plug
that pad with a 4-pound alternator installation which
gives rise to Figure Z-13/8.
This architecture is suited to 99+ percent of any
OBAM aircraft flying wherein the builder would be
willing to launch into his/her favorite IMC in a
Piper Cherokee fitted with a generator and vacuum pump.
Z-13/8 offers a hedge against the vast majority of
single point failures that would have taken the
panel dark in certified ships for the past six
decades for a 4-pound weight penalty. Further, Z-11
is easy to start out with and morph into Z-13/8
at a future time if you feel it's desirable.
If anyone is considering a Z-14 style installation,
let's talk. It's going to be heavier, more complex
and not likely to service your needs in anything
short of an airplane like the Lancair IVP I described
above. If you believe there is a necessity/benefit
from running both alternators full time into a common
bus, let's talk some more. This should not be necessary.
Mark, if you have planned loads in your project that
would overload a 40A machine, please consider a 60A
alternator and keep the SD-8 in relaxed reserve for
what it does best.
It's really easy for the neophyte builder to succumb
to much of what's misunderstood by the general public
(including most pilots) as to what kinds of failures
really put an airplane in jeopardy and what practical
countermeasures will mitigate the risk. Your #1 backup
in ANY airplane is the flashlight and hand-helds in
your flight bag. The rest is icing on the cake. But take
care lest you pile 10 pounds of icing on a two pound
cake. 10 years from now, you will wish that you had that
extra weight carrying ability available for fuel and
baggage (and that the cost-of-ownership dollars had
gone into your retirement account).
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EmPower jack source - was Airline style 2-pin 12v |
power outlet jacks...
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Greg -
This is more complicated than I understood, but not that complicated a
concept. I have a Motion 1400 and it has a brick. In an airplane, or car
for that matter, it is a pain to put it someplace that is out of the way.
Wiring a permament variable voltage supply into the plane would be nice.
I'll look into the Kennsington, but the Motion needs 19 volts/3 amp out.
Weird voltage. The brick input is flexible: 12-32v & 8 amp. I'd hardwire
this brick into the plane except that it really is great to have on a road
trip - both for road maps and email in hotels.
Let me know what you find on the Empower wiring, sources, etc.
Cheers,
John
wrote:
>
>
> John,
> I already have a bunch of cigarette lighter outlets,
> so the EmPower jack would be in addition to those.
> There are lots of good 3 and 4 pin latching connectors,
> but I'm trying to find the "other half" of the new airline standard
> "EmPower
> connector".
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect Current Sensor Location |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Jonathan -
We have the very same electrical system and EFIS in our Lancair ES (not
flying yet). We have the non-FADEC IO-550N, although we had a FADEC on
order. We installed two current sensors - one on each feed from the
alternator/battery connection to its respective buss. This gives us the
load on each buss under normal flight. However, it does not provide the
load on the batteries because of the battery busses. I'm guessing you'll
have one channel of the FADEC on each battery buss and feeding to its
control unit via a switch on the panel. Unless you want to install 4 hall
effect modules, I would still recommend putting the two where we did. You
will probably never cut electrical load by turning off one channel of the
FADEC, so you know what that current draw will always be. So, you can
mentally add it to the readings on the E1. The rest of battery buss stuff
is very low draw and switchable.
When it comes to wiring the sensors, make sure you ground the voltage
dividers to the EFIS ground via a ground pin on either Analog 1 or Analog
2 or Analog 3 (if you have it). We also temporarily wired an ammeter into
the feed lines to the busses and turned on each item on that buss to get
its amps draw. We then turned on the E! in the calibrate mode and turned
each device on and read its AD number. This gave us a good calibration
table and the amps read pretty accurately.
Hope this helps.
John Schroeder
Lancair ES - painting 65% complete
http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder
wrote:
>
>
> Bob,
>
> My electrical design will be the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator,
> Split Bus. The engine will be an IO-320 with a FADEC control. I am also
> planning on using two Hall Effect Current Sensors that will feed into
> the Blue Mountain EFIS.
>
> Question: Is the best place to locate the current sensors on the output
> side (B) on each alternator similar to what you show in Z-12?
>
> Thanks,
> Johnathan
> Glastar #5731
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 02/04/06 |
Listers,
I have a question for you.
I have a 12V electrical system with two batteries and one alternator. I would
like to power 24V position lights. What must I do to accomplish that?
Is there a 12V to 24V step up device that can be installed to power only those
lights? I don't want to change the entire system to 24V.
Stan Sutterfield
www.rv-8a.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 24v lamps in 14v system . . . |
>
> Listers,
>I have a question for you.
>I have a 12V electrical system with two batteries and one alternator. I
>would like to power 24V position lights. What must I do to accomplish that?
>Is there a 12V to 24V step up device that can be installed to power only
>those lights? I don't want to change the entire system to 24V.
>Stan Sutterfield
Have you considered changing the light bulbs in
the position light fixtures? They're generally
available in both 12 and 24 volt versions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Engine Cowl Temperatures |
> 2/5/2006
>
> Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start
> opening my dipstick cap also.
>
> How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead
> of water vapor?
> I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass
> to see how greasy it is.
>
> OC
I believe it is all water vapor, maybe some fuel vapor thrown in. I don't
believe it is oil, but your cold mirror would be a good test.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 712 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Engine Cowl Temperatures |
> -->
>
> Just a quick question Alex. As the engine cools with the
> dipstick open, won't that just suck more (possibly moisture
> laden) air back into the oil sump?
>
>
> Vince
Vince, this would happen without opening the oil stick, as it would simply
go into the breather in any case. I'm sure the dewpoint inside an engine
upon shutdown is higher than FL in the summer.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 712 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 02/04/06 |
speedy11(at)aol.com wrote:
> Is there a 12V to 24V step up device that can be installed to power only those
lights? I don't want to change the entire system to 24V.
Yes. See:
http://www.surepower.com/conv.html
They make DC-DC converters that will upconvert 12V nominal to 28V to
power 28V loads in various current ratings from 10A - 40A.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Engine Cowl Temperatures |
> -->
>
>
> Keep in mind that if you get the oil hot enough on each
> flight to boil off the water in the oil - - then opening the
> dip stick filler tube appears to accomplish very little.
Definitely off the electric topic, but:
In my case, it certainly does "appear" to be removing moisture when I watch
it. How much, I don't know, but there is a nice stream coming up for
several minutes. Some have said that bugs and things might go in there. Do
those folks check up inside the breather tube before each flight, as that is
always open? Obviously, I wouldn't leave it open if I park out in the
woods.
In the case of my plane, this steam "chimney" will happen regardless of how
long and hot the oil has been. The exhaust blow-by is constantly
resupplying the crankcase with moisture. The oil doesn't have to be at the
boiling point of water (for that altitude) in order to drive the water out,
but it obviously helps. What is known is that the higher the oil
temperature is above the dew point of the crankcase gasses (I don't know
what this value is), the faster water will be driven out. As the oil and
engine cools down, any moisture in the crankcase gasses will condense inside
the engine once the engine/oil is at or below the dewpoint of the internal
gasses.
I make and have made no claim as to whether or not any of this matters to
the engine.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 712 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures |
Alex Peterson wrote:
> I make and have made no claim as to whether or not any of this matters to
> the engine.
Want to take the best care of your engine? Fly regularly, like a couple
of times a week. That will do a LOT more than opening your dipstick. It
means the oil doesn't leave your cam lobes high-and-dry and it means you
get the moisture out before it forms acid with the combustion products.
I have had a couple of engines go beyond TBO by substantial margins. The
O-320 that was in my RV-4 came out of a C-172 that was a trainer and had
been flown almost daily. It had almost 2000 hours on it when it went
into my airplane. I overhauled the engine at 2600 hours even though
compressions and oil consumption were just fine. We couldn't find
anything wrong with the engine when we tore it down.
The engine in my Comanche went almost 2400 hours. I used to fly it to
work every day and the rest of its life it flew mostly long cross
countries (8-10 hours per week).
Treat them well and fly them often. That is how you make them go beyond TBO.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
Wngsfrmhvn(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> My first post to any list, so hope it works.
>
> I picked up a computer power supply a while back on a whim. 550 watt Antec,
> says it will deliver 24A at 12V, 40A at 5V, and 32A at 3.3V. Don't know if
> it goes to 13.8 or whether it's even suitable for benchtop use. It was $100
> on eBay some time ago, prob not the best deal goin but...
You can use computer supplies but many of them have minimum loads for
all three voltages for them to work properly. That means you have to
draw some current from the 5V and 3.3V outputs in order for the 12V
output to work properly.
And, no, there usually isn't an adjustment that will let you crank up
the voltage to 13.8V.
I have an old Astron 35A linear supply with variable voltage and current
limit. It works wonderfully for this kind of work. You set the current
limit just above what you expect to need and any accidental
short-circuit is protected by the supply's current limit.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 02/04/06 |
The DC-DC converter will be pricey (and heavy.) Why not just run 12 volt
position lights?
If you have an experimental, may I suggest one of the LED position light
kits I sell.
Bill Dube' http://www.killacycle.com/Lights.htm
speedy11(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Listers,
>I have a question for you.
>I have a 12V electrical system with two batteries and one alternator. I would
like to power 24V position lights. What must I do to accomplish that?
>Is there a 12V to 24V step up device that can be installed to power only those
lights? I don't want to change the entire system to 24V.
>Stan Sutterfield
>www.rv-8a.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
I use a Toshiba laptop power supply. I put clup leads on it. It delivers
15 volts @ 2 amps (good for charging batteries). I put a power doide in
series with it to get 14.3 volts. (Just like the alternator with a full
battery.)
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>
>Wngsfrmhvn(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
>>
>>My first post to any list, so hope it works.
>>
>>I picked up a computer power supply a while back on a whim. 550 watt Antec,
>>says it will deliver 24A at 12V, 40A at 5V, and 32A at 3.3V. Don't know if
>>it goes to 13.8 or whether it's even suitable for benchtop use. It was $100
>>on eBay some time ago, prob not the best deal goin but...
>>
>>
>
>You can use computer supplies but many of them have minimum loads for
>all three voltages for them to work properly. That means you have to
>draw some current from the 5V and 3.3V outputs in order for the 12V
>output to work properly.
>
>And, no, there usually isn't an adjustment that will let you crank up
>the voltage to 13.8V.
>
>I have an old Astron 35A linear supply with variable voltage and current
>limit. It works wonderfully for this kind of work. You set the current
>limit just above what you expect to need and any accidental
>short-circuit is protected by the supply's current limit.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
Didn't realise you needed big amps.
Iota is probably the most amps for the buck. You can switch it between
14.2 for charging and 13.8 for "float".
Here is a listing: http://www.oksolar.com/battery_chargers/
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC
>>input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC? Thanks,
>>
>>Jim McCulley
>>
>>
>
> Do you really want 12v . . . or are you interested in
> simulating an operating vehicle? 13.8v is a nominal bench
> supply setting for emulating bus voltage. Here's a supply
> I used to sell until they got so cheap that the margins
> didn't fit my business model any more . . .
>
>
> http://www.radiodan.com/misc/samlex1223.htm
>
> http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamps/3747.html
>
> http://www.aaradio.com/cartfile/misc%20html/samlex.html
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Flyable_Brassboards |
Many times over the years, I've had to fabricate little circuits
for some task wherein I needed the flexibility of a brass-board
but with a reasonable degree of hardness suited for flight.
I had occasion to dig out an old tool today for another task
and thought I'd share it with the List. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/flyable_brassboard_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/flyable_brassboard_2.jpg
I cut down a strip of experimental brass-board stock and with
a tad bit of sculpting on the belt sander, I was able to fit it to
the inside of the lid on this die-cast box. Add a d-sub or other
handy connector and you've got an enclosure with features that
permit quick fabrication but with reasonable robustness for handling
when closed up. If I expect unusual vibration, I'll use hot-glue
to stick the components and wires down to the board. The hot glue
doesn't run into the holes and strips off after the experiment is
done.
The circuit in the pictures is a gain of 100 amplifier I needed
to amplify a strain gage signal up to the range of my poor-man's
data acquisition system. The all-metal enclosure lends itself to
the shielding of relatively sensitive circuits. I keep several such
prepared boxes laying around and they've saved a lot of time when
I needed to get something up and running . . . today.
In this case, I'm setting up the data acquisition system to get
some numbers on the performance of a Schumacher Wonder Charger . . .
lots of push-buttons and indicators. Really cool battery charger.
The goal is to deduce return on investment and real utility of
this tool in the ownership and operation of and airplane (or any
other vehicle fitted with a battery). I need a gain of 60 amplifier
for the battery ammeter shunt.
If any of you are inclined to craft specialty circuits that
are best flight tested before committing to etched circuit
board . . . or you just need a one-time circuit for a test,
I can recommend the technique illustrated here.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Alice Hoffman" <rognal(at)clipper.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator Stator Terminal |
I'm wiring my experimental per Z-11. I have installed a Continental IO-240-B which
came (new) with their (TCM) 60A Alternator installed. This alternator has
a threaded terminal identified as 'Stator', as well as the terminals marked Battery,
Field, and Ground.
Can anyone tell me if this alternators 'stator' terminal needs a connection of
some kind? Or leave it unconnected?
A search of the archives revealed nothing to me, nor did the Continental Engine
Operator's & Maintenance Manuals.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
R. Hoffman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Alice Hoffman" <rognal(at)clipper.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator Stator Terminal |
I'm wiring my experimental per Z-11. I have installed a Continental IO-240-B which
came (new) with their (TCM) 60A Alternator installed. This alternator has
a threaded terminal identified as 'Stator', as well as the terminals marked Battery,
Field, and Ground.
Can anyone tell me if this alternators 'stator' terminal needs a connection of
some kind? Or leave it unconnected?
A search of the archives revealed nothing to me, nor did the Continental Engine
Operator's & Maintenance Manuals.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
R. Hoffman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Bus Load Analysis |
Hi all ...
I humbly ask for input on the following and maybe create new thought ...
Load analysis: Pitot heat load vs. load of AOA (angle of attack) Sport
instrument.
Rob are you here?
When considering the imbalance of the load effects of these two items ... it
seems we squander a lot of amps on pitot heat when the AOA could substitute
while using about .4 amps and include audible warnings, as well, while
landing at any weight.
In my reading of the Lancair list, I've found there has been zero incidents
of moisture problems in the AOA ports in the outer wing D sections. This
included heavy rain with the airplane tied outside. If this port is not
affected by moisture, it seems to follow that icing may be less of a problem
with this delta P port. This applies to the AOA system called AOA Sport,
where the pressure differential is measured at the outboard wing D section.
When considering pitot heat, as a 7.5A continuous load, it would increase
most Continuous Bus loads by near 30-40%. Powering-up an AOA system pales
in comparison at only .4 amps.
Those of you with the AOA Sport ... have you found any moisture or frozen
ports?
How many have found pitot heat cleared up their airspeed indications within
moments of turning on the pitot heat?
What I'm trying to get at here is: do you think pitot heat should be listed
as continuous amps used, considering the availability of AOA and it's low
demand on amps?
Regards ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Stator Terminal |
>
>
>I'm wiring my experimental per Z-11. I have installed a Continental
>IO-240-B which came (new) with their (TCM) 60A Alternator installed. This
>alternator has a threaded terminal identified as 'Stator', as well as the
>terminals marked Battery, Field, and Ground.
>
>Can anyone tell me if this alternators 'stator' terminal needs a
>connection of some kind? Or leave it unconnected?
>
>A search of the archives revealed nothing to me, nor did the Continental
>Engine Operator's & Maintenance Manuals.
>
>Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
>R. Hoffman
The "Stator" terminal is the center tap on a "Y" connected
stator winding. This terminal has been used in a variety
of ways to sense whether or not the engine was turning
the alternator, as a signal to drive various alternator
failure detectors, ect.
I've not seen a useful application of this signal in years.
It exists only on alternators with "Y" connected windings.
In any case, you can ignore this terminal.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flyable_Brassboards |
I understand what you are doing and know that you understand the
limitations of this type of breadboard and will not use it for long or
in any flight critical application.
However, I am not sure that everyone reading this list does.
This type of breadboard is good for bench testing of relatively low
frequency (<1MHz or so) circuits. It has a relatively large capacitance
between pins/insertion points which limits the high frequency utility
and can provide unwanted feedback in sensitive circuits. It is also not
very secure unless it is new and from a good quality manufacturer. The
insertion points tend to get loose with time, especially if one inserts
a larger lead one time and a smaller lead the next.
I would recommend that one use these boards as they were intended - try
out the circuit on the bench in a nice benign environment. When you are
satisfied that it will do what you want, then purchase one of the PCBs
available that exactly mimic the insertion points and buses and solder
your circuit on that (for instance, Radio Shack Catalog #: 276-170 -
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=breadboard -
fifth one down on the page). They are also available from Digikey.
This will give a circuit that is stable and robust and could be used as
a permanent installation if so desired.
The rest of your suggestion (using the aluminum box) is a great idea!
Dick Tasker
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>Many times over the years, I've had to fabricate little circuits
>for some task wherein I needed the flexibility of a brass-board
>but with a reasonable degree of hardness suited for flight.
>
>I had occasion to dig out an old tool today for another task
>and thought I'd share it with the List. See:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/flyable_brassboard_1.jpg
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/flyable_brassboard_2.jpg
>
>I cut down a strip of experimental brass-board stock and with
>a tad bit of sculpting on the belt sander, I was able to fit it to
>the inside of the lid on this die-cast box. Add a d-sub or other
>handy connector and you've got an enclosure with features that
>permit quick fabrication but with reasonable robustness for handling
>when closed up. If I expect unusual vibration, I'll use hot-glue
>to stick the components and wires down to the board. The hot glue
>doesn't run into the holes and strips off after the experiment is
>done.
>
>The circuit in the pictures is a gain of 100 amplifier I needed
>to amplify a strain gage signal up to the range of my poor-man's
>data acquisition system. The all-metal enclosure lends itself to
>the shielding of relatively sensitive circuits. I keep several such
>prepared boxes laying around and they've saved a lot of time when
>I needed to get something up and running . . . today.
>
>In this case, I'm setting up the data acquisition system to get
>some numbers on the performance of a Schumacher Wonder Charger . . .
>lots of push-buttons and indicators. Really cool battery charger.
>The goal is to deduce return on investment and real utility of
>this tool in the ownership and operation of and airplane (or any
>other vehicle fitted with a battery). I need a gain of 60 amplifier
>for the battery ammeter shunt.
>
>If any of you are inclined to craft specialty circuits that
>are best flight tested before committing to etched circuit
>board . . . or you just need a one-time circuit for a test,
>I can recommend the technique illustrated here.
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus Load Analysis |
Jerry Grimmonpre wrote:
> I humbly ask for input on the following and maybe create new thought ...
> Load analysis: Pitot heat load vs. load of AOA (angle of attack) Sport
> instrument.
> Rob are you here?
I like AoA. It is one of the most useful instruments in an airplane. I
also know that neither AoA nor ASI are going to be much use when the
wing is iced up. Ice changes the airfoil shape and possibly the
effective angle of incidence. The wing will stall at a different
airspeed and probably a different angle of attack as separation of
airflow is likely to occur sooner.
So it doesn't much matter.
Well, there is one thing: if your ASI is working and you experience
stall buffet at some airspeed, at least the ASI will give you some idea
when you are in the ballpark again. In that it might be of some use if
the wing is iced up. And your AoA pressure ports will probably be
covered with the ice anyway.
But I still like that AoA instrument. I had one on my previous CJ6A and
verified its calibration from 1/4G all the way up to 5Gs. It made flying
acro a lot more comfortable because I could always just take the wing to
zero alpha and wait until I had more airspeed to recover. I never had to
deal with the airplane departing if I didn't want to.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> |
Lectric Bob:
I've been doing the wiring diagrams for my all electric RV-6 and using some
of your autocad stuff on the AEC CD as examples and starting points. Since
I'm just hacking at Autocad these help get me going faster than if I had to
start from scratch, thanks for sharing your hard work with us. Couple
questions on wire sizing. I originally bought the Whelen strobe kit (A600)
that has both the side and aft position lights with strobe in each wingtip
mounted assembly (no tail position required). I later decided to buy the
combination tail position light/strobe combo as an addition in order to help
people see me better from the rear.
I now have 5 position lights at 2.2 amps each for a total of 11 amps of load
on the circuit. I would like to run them all from one switch and have ONE
wire running from the switch down through the center console of the airplane
through the spar to a distribution block under the floor. I've been
scratching my head a little and reading and re-reading the section in your
book about "Wire Selection and Installation". Using the chart for temp rise
vs wire ga vs current capacity, it looks like a 16 GA wire would have appx a
30 deg C temp rise with 11 amps flowing through it. If I convert that to an
appx Farenheit equivalent it becomes something like an 86 deg temp rise. If
ambient is a Florida summer with the OAT at 90 deg (F) and I add these two
temps together I get 176 degrees (F) temp in free air with 11 amps in the 16
GA wire, correct?
Running this wire down through the tight confines of my center console means
that it will be near several other wires and without lots of cooling air so
I would assume that one would see the full 176 degrees around that wire in
that confined space. This is not beyond the capabilities of the Tefzel
wire I'm using but still very hot to the touch and warmer than I feel
comfortable with. So if I drop down to a 14 GA wire it looks like the temp
rise would be appx 13 deg C or 55 F which gives about a 145 deg wire temp in
free air. The is still going to be pretty warm to the touch and I'm
thinking maybe it should be derated a bit more but don't really want to run
a 12 GA wire and am not 100% sure it's needed (although on a night flight
that wire will see the full 11 amps for the entire period of time).
Are my assumptions here correct and am I really going to experience 176 deg
wire temp with 11 amps in a 16 GA wire on a 90 deg day? If so do you think
dropping to 14 GA would be sufficient or should I make it larger? Since I
don't really want to run a 12 GA wire through the tight space would two 16
or 14 GA wires work equally as well or would the current shared by each be
unequal with the resultant heating of each wire also unequal (assuming they
are tied together at both ends)? Is there a good "rule of thumb" for wire
sizing with respect to temp rise (ie. Equipment that runs continuously
should not have wire temps higher that would be uncomfortable to touch or
some such thing). Since this wire is only about 6 feet long the voltage drop
through it shouldn't be a significant factor that I see (4/1000 ohms per
foot*6 feet*14 volts = .33 volts) so that leaves temperature.
Also, I see on your diagrams for landing and recognition lights you show a
resistor of unknown value between the ground connection and the light. I
assume this is simply there to remind us that there is some loss in lines
that long and also some loss in the return line (aircraft structure). Is
this assumption correct or is there a reason for the resistors there? Any
other word of wisdom would be most welcome. Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Knee deep in Autocad and wire
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 24v lamps in 14v system |
In a message dated 02/06/06 3:08:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Listers,
>I have a question for you.
>I have a 12V electrical system with two batteries and one alternator. I
>would like to power 24V position lights. What must I do to accomplish that?
>Is there a 12V to 24V step up device that can be installed to power only
>those lights? I don't want to change the entire system to 24V.
>Stan Sutterfield
Have you considered changing the light bulbs in
the position light fixtures? They're generally
available in both 12 and 24 volt versions.
Bob . . .
The LED position lights are not available in 12V - only 24V.
Is there a way to convert 12V to 24V so as to power the lights?
Stan Sutterfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bus Load Analysis |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Jerry -
I'm not sure what your point is. The AOA Sport relies on pitot and static
pressure inputs. Therefore, in known or suspected icing, I would have the
pitot heat on - to get both airspeed and the AOA. Why would one risk
losing both by trying to save some juice in the weather?
I have installed this AOA in a Lancair ES. The AOA ports are on the right
wing and the pitot tube is on the left wing.
Hope this helps.
John
> What I'm trying to get at here is: do you think pitot heat should be
> listed
> as continuous amps used, considering the availability of AOA and it's low
> demand on amps?
> Regards ...
> Jerry Grimmonpre'
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flyable_Brassboards |
>
>
>I understand what you are doing and know that you understand the
>limitations of this type of breadboard and will not use it for long or
>in any flight critical application.
Name one "flight critical" application . . . :-)
>However, I am not sure that everyone reading this list does.
The operative term is "brassboard" . . . a modern incarnation
of the yesteryear's techniques for "breadboarding". This technology
is useful for one-of, low bandwidth tasks. This technology is a
low-time-to-operation but short-lived activity such as the
examples I described for engineering flight and/or bench
testing.
Any permanently installed device . . . or a device not intended
to be shepherded by flight test persons should not be assembled
in this manner.
>This type of breadboard is good for bench testing of relatively low
>frequency (<1MHz or so) circuits. It has a relatively large capacitance
>between pins/insertion points which limits the high frequency utility
>and can provide unwanted feedback in sensitive circuits. It is also not
>very secure unless it is new and from a good quality manufacturer. The
>insertion points tend to get loose with time, especially if one inserts
>a larger lead one time and a smaller lead the next.
Absolutely. This is the ONLY reason I keep PVC, 22AWG solid wire in
the shop. I specifically limit the size of conductors pushed into
the holes to 22AWG or smaller.
>I would recommend that one use these boards as they were intended - try
>out the circuit on the bench in a nice benign environment. When you are
>satisfied that it will do what you want, then purchase one of the PCBs
>available that exactly mimic the insertion points and buses and solder
>your circuit on that (for instance, Radio Shack Catalog #: 276-170 -
>http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=breadboard -
>fifth one down on the page). They are also available from Digikey.
>This will give a circuit that is stable and robust and could be used as
>a permanent installation if so desired.
VERY labor intensive by comparison and you still have to box it
and furnish a connector. I find the spring-boards particularly
useful in situations where you have a lot of people standing around
charging to your work-order and things don't move ahead until YOUR
contribution to the task is running.
They ARE life-limited. I've refurbished several of these tools
when one or more contacts got funky. I keep several new
spring-boards on the shelf. It takes 10 minutes to pry the
used one off and replace it. They're easy to build
and have great return on investment but as you've noted, NOT
a substitute for more robust packaging for long term
applications and especially when the device will be used
by non flight test personnel. It is, after all, a brassboard.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire sizing. |
>
>
>Lectric Bob:
>
>I've been doing the wiring diagrams for my all electric RV-6 and using some
>of your autocad stuff on the AEC CD as examples and starting points. Since
>I'm just hacking at Autocad these help get me going faster than if I had to
>start from scratch, thanks for sharing your hard work with us. Couple
>questions on wire sizing. I originally bought the Whelen strobe kit (A600)
>that has both the side and aft position lights with strobe in each wingtip
>mounted assembly (no tail position required). I later decided to buy the
>combination tail position light/strobe combo as an addition in order to help
>people see me better from the rear.
My apologies for running you thorough the 'rat race' with bad
data. The temperature rise data in Chapter 8 lost something in
the translation a few years ago when I crafted the figures. A number
of readers pointed this out over the years . . . in fact, I'd
prepared some corrected Figures for posting on the website but
never got them finalized and posted. Here they are:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Figures_8-3_8-4_Errata.pdf
With the correct data, you'll find that your 16AWG choice for
the position lights will be just fine.
>Also, I see on your diagrams for landing and recognition lights you show a
>resistor of unknown value between the ground connection and the light. I
>assume this is simply there to remind us that there is some loss in lines
>that long and also some loss in the return line (aircraft structure). Is
>this assumption correct or is there a reason for the resistors there? Any
>other word of wisdom would be most welcome. Thanks.
Those are inrush limiters. See
http://www.ametherm.com/Inrush_Current/welcome.html
and
http://www.ametherm.com/Data%20Sheets/SL32%2010015.pdf
These a thermistors with strong negative temperature
coefficients that will greatly attenuate the 10-70x
inrush currents to large lamps. The part cited above
is a good one for lamps drawing 7-15 amps. You can buy
these from Digikey . . .
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T061/1328.pdf
I appreciate your bringing the topic up again. It prompted
me to get my homework done on the errata sheet. I'm putting
chapter 8 on the to-do list for Revision 12. Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flmike <flmike2001(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 24v lamps in 14v system |
try:
http://www.aconinc.com/web05/s24v.html
they also have 28V output units in case that's what
you really need.
If just powering the LED position lights, size the
convertor according to the power consumption of the
lights. I'm assuming this is an experimental plane?
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire sizing. |
Paralleling small gage wires is not a good practice. If one becomes
disconnected, the other gets too hot. No way to tell that this is
occurring (other than the resultant fire.)
16 gage wire would allow a 15 amp breaker. 11 amps would be 73% of the
breaker rating. Since the load is continuous, 80% maximum is prudent.
The voltage drop for 11 amps in a 20 foot 16 gage wire could be as much
as a volt. This could make the lights a touch dim.
If you run 14 gage wire, you can use a 20 amp circuit breaker, and
the voltage drop will be only 0.6 volts. Sounds like the better plan to me.
DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote:
>
>Lectric Bob:
>
>I've been doing the wiring diagrams for my all electric RV-6 and using some
>of your autocad stuff on the AEC CD as examples and starting points. Since
>I'm just hacking at Autocad these help get me going faster than if I had to
>start from scratch, thanks for sharing your hard work with us. Couple
>questions on wire sizing. I originally bought the Whelen strobe kit (A600)
>that has both the side and aft position lights with strobe in each wingtip
>mounted assembly (no tail position required). I later decided to buy the
>combination tail position light/strobe combo as an addition in order to help
>people see me better from the rear.
>
>I now have 5 position lights at 2.2 amps each for a total of 11 amps of load
>on the circuit. I would like to run them all from one switch and have ONE
>wire running from the switch down through the center console of the airplane
>through the spar to a distribution block under the floor. I've been
>scratching my head a little and reading and re-reading the section in your
>book about "Wire Selection and Installation". Using the chart for temp rise
>vs wire ga vs current capacity, it looks like a 16 GA wire would have appx a
>30 deg C temp rise with 11 amps flowing through it. If I convert that to an
>appx Farenheit equivalent it becomes something like an 86 deg temp rise. If
>ambient is a Florida summer with the OAT at 90 deg (F) and I add these two
>temps together I get 176 degrees (F) temp in free air with 11 amps in the 16
>GA wire, correct?
>
>Running this wire down through the tight confines of my center console means
>that it will be near several other wires and without lots of cooling air so
>I would assume that one would see the full 176 degrees around that wire in
>that confined space. This is not beyond the capabilities of the Tefzel
>wire I'm using but still very hot to the touch and warmer than I feel
>comfortable with. So if I drop down to a 14 GA wire it looks like the temp
>rise would be appx 13 deg C or 55 F which gives about a 145 deg wire temp in
>free air. The is still going to be pretty warm to the touch and I'm
>thinking maybe it should be derated a bit more but don't really want to run
>a 12 GA wire and am not 100% sure it's needed (although on a night flight
>that wire will see the full 11 amps for the entire period of time).
>
>Are my assumptions here correct and am I really going to experience 176 deg
>wire temp with 11 amps in a 16 GA wire on a 90 deg day? If so do you think
>dropping to 14 GA would be sufficient or should I make it larger? Since I
>don't really want to run a 12 GA wire through the tight space would two 16
>or 14 GA wires work equally as well or would the current shared by each be
>unequal with the resultant heating of each wire also unequal (assuming they
>are tied together at both ends)? Is there a good "rule of thumb" for wire
>sizing with respect to temp rise (ie. Equipment that runs continuously
>should not have wire temps higher that would be uncomfortable to touch or
>some such thing). Since this wire is only about 6 feet long the voltage drop
>through it shouldn't be a significant factor that I see (4/1000 ohms per
>foot*6 feet*14 volts = .33 volts) so that leaves temperature.
>
>Also, I see on your diagrams for landing and recognition lights you show a
>resistor of unknown value between the ground connection and the light. I
>assume this is simply there to remind us that there is some loss in lines
>that long and also some loss in the return line (aircraft structure). Is
>this assumption correct or is there a reason for the resistors there? Any
>other word of wisdom would be most welcome. Thanks.
>
>Dean Psiropoulos
>RV-6A N197DM
>Knee deep in Autocad and wire
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire sizing. |
>
>Paralleling small gage wires is not a good practice. If one becomes
>disconnected, the other gets too hot. No way to tell that this is
>occurring (other than the resultant fire.)
>
>16 gage wire would allow a 15 amp breaker. 11 amps would be 73% of the
>breaker rating. Since the load is continuous, 80% maximum is prudent.
>
>The voltage drop for 11 amps in a 20 foot 16 gage wire could be as much
>as a volt. This could make the lights a touch dim.
>
> If you run 14 gage wire, you can use a 20 amp circuit breaker, and
>the voltage drop will be only 0.6 volts. Sounds like the better plan to me.
The full current doesn't flow in the longest wire. Position lights
are an excellent example of a "branching" architecture where
a number of small loads added together determine the size of the
bus feeder.
His 5 x 2.2A lamps says that a 15A breaker/fuse feeding a switch
calls for a single strand of 16AWG. From the switch outward, the
circuit branches to various locations (left, right tail) such that
no conductor need carry full load past the switch. Voltage drops
will be VERY low.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bus Load Analysis |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Jerry,
Interesting question.. Comments embedded.
>
>
> Hi all ...
>
> I humbly ask for input on the following and maybe create new thought ...
> Load analysis: Pitot heat load vs. load of AOA (angle of attack) Sport
> instrument.
> Rob are you here?
>
> When considering the imbalance of the load effects of these two items
> ... it seems we squander a lot of amps on pitot heat when the AOA could
> substitute while using about .4 amps and include audible warnings, as
> well, while landing at any weight.
>
> In my reading of the Lancair list, I've found there has been zero
> incidents of moisture problems in the AOA ports in the outer wing D
> sections. This included heavy rain with the airplane tied outside. If
> this port is not affected by moisture, it seems to follow that icing
> may be less of a problem with this delta P port. This applies to the
> AOA system called AOA Sport, where the pressure differential is
> measured at the outboard wing D section.
>
I don't know that you could say that being impervious to rain has any
bearing on being impervious to ice. Even if ice doesn't end up covering
either port, it changes the airflow over the wing, and lowers the angle of
attack of stall. I had a fortunate opportunity to ride around in the
right seat of a Pilatus PC-12 last week.. The pilot was explaining to me
that when prop deice, and the engine inertial seperator were enabled, the
stick shaker/pusher would activate at 8deg less AoA(!). The system
assumes that when you have both systems enabled, it's pretty likely you
are in icing conditions.
> When considering pitot heat, as a 7.5A continuous load, it would
> increase most Continuous Bus loads by near 30-40%. Powering-up an AOA
> system pales in comparison at only .4 amps.
>
> Those of you with the AOA Sport ... have you found any moisture or
> frozen ports?
> How many have found pitot heat cleared up their airspeed indications
> within moments of turning on the pitot heat?
>
Typical use of pitot heat is to power it up whenever you are in visible
moisture - the idea is that you don't want a dead ASI to be the indication
that the pitot heat should be turned on.
> What I'm trying to get at here is: do you think pitot heat should be
> listed as continuous amps used, considering the availability of AOA and
> it's low demand on amps?
That's a slightly different question.. The pitot heat is a continuous
load - like nav lights. Unlike flap motors and electric landing gear
equipment, which are momentary loads. The real question I would ask is
whether either an AOA or the ASI is required in order to comfortably
complete any flight you intend to use the airplane for.
I don't know that this rationale is backed up by good statistics, but if I
were planning to use an airplane for lots of real IFR work, I'd probably
want a power budget that allowed me to run the pitot heat after the
failure of my primary engine driven electrical power source. Especially
with a naturally aspirated (rather limited service ceiling) engine. If
however, my airplane was going to be used for occasional scud avoidance -
punch through a layer in order to find some sunshine when it's cloudy on
the ground, I wouldn't worry about having pitot heat be supported by the
endurance bus. I figure that the intersection of time when I have an
electrical failure, and when I can't comfortably complete a flight without
the ASI/AoA would be exceedingly low.
> Regards ...
> Jerry Grimmonpre'
>
>
Matt-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire sizing. |
Well I guess as long as he can make it from the switch to the wingtip
using less than 23 feet of wire, he can stay within the allowed 0.5 volt
drop using 16 gage wire.
(4.81/1000)*4.4*23 = 0.5 volts
The wing is about 10 feet long. I'm not sure how much wire it will take
to get from the wing root to the switch, but 10 feet might be a good
guess. Probably would be OK.
The difference in weight between 16 gage and 14 gage for the whole
system would be something like 0.3 lbs.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Paralleling small gage wires is not a good practice. If one becomes
>>disconnected, the other gets too hot. No way to tell that this is
>>occurring (other than the resultant fire.)
>>
>>16 gage wire would allow a 15 amp breaker. 11 amps would be 73% of the
>>breaker rating. Since the load is continuous, 80% maximum is prudent.
>>
>>The voltage drop for 11 amps in a 20 foot 16 gage wire could be as much
>>as a volt. This could make the lights a touch dim.
>>
>> If you run 14 gage wire, you can use a 20 amp circuit breaker, and
>>the voltage drop will be only 0.6 volts. Sounds like the better plan to me.
>>
>>
>
> The full current doesn't flow in the longest wire. Position lights
> are an excellent example of a "branching" architecture where
> a number of small loads added together determine the size of the
> bus feeder.
>
> His 5 x 2.2A lamps says that a 15A breaker/fuse feeding a switch
> calls for a single strand of 16AWG. From the switch outward, the
> circuit branches to various locations (left, right tail) such that
> no conductor need carry full load past the switch. Voltage drops
> will be VERY low.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Neubauer" <markn(at)fuse.net> |
| Subject: | Dual Alternator, Response |
Folks:
Thanks for the response about my question of using the two alternators
simultaneously. In line with what I had thought during the design of the
electrical system, I will plan to use the SD-8 only as a back-up when/(if)
the main 40amp fellow heads to greener pastures. Of course, in line with
Bob's philosophy of exercising all things electrical from time to time, it
would make sense to shut off the main alternator and energize the SD-8 (on
downwind to landing, for example, in daylight) every now and then just to
keep the electrons knowing where to go within the rather un-used wiring and
to verify, via the voltmeter, that the SD-8 is indeed pumping and keeping
the busses filled.
Mark Neubauer
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply |
In a message dated 02/03/2006 10:20:21 PM Central Standard Time,
nuckollsr(at)cox.net writes:
>Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC
>input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC?
>>>
Might want to look at this 13.8, 20 amp supply:
http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=5386+PS
>From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips RV-6A N51PW
Or try http://www.web-tronics.com/25ampswitpow.html 25 amps, 13.8 v for
$99.00 Hard to beat!
Peter Laurence
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ON hold current for Bosch ice-cube relays |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Does anyone have the typical ON hold current for the high-current Bosch relays
such as Bosch p/n 0 332 209 150 ?
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10747#10747
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire sizing. |
>
>Well I guess as long as he can make it from the switch to the wingtip
>using less than 23 feet of wire, he can stay within the allowed 0.5 volt
>drop using 16 gage wire.
>
>(4.81/1000)*4.4*23 = 0.5 volts
>
>The wing is about 10 feet long. I'm not sure how much wire it will take
>to get from the wing root to the switch, but 10 feet might be a good
>guess. Probably would be OK.
Keep in mind too that the 0.5 volt value is a rule-of-thumb.
Consider that we expect things to perform in a useful way all the
way down to battery-only ops of 11.0 volts. That's a whole lot more
than 0.5 volts below a 14.2 volt bus when alternator is operating
normally. If your "thumb" should turn out to be 0.6 or 0.7 or even
0.8 volts long, it's not going to make a big difference in the
over-all scheme of things.
In fact, keep in mind that every 5% drop in voltage doubles the life
of a lamp. Run your lights with wire that allows a 10% drop will 4x
the lamp life . . . if that's your design goal, then so be it.
Just tell interested parties that your thumb is "1.4 volts long."
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Response |
>
>Folks:
>
>Thanks for the response about my question of using the two alternators
>simultaneously. In line with what I had thought during the design of the
>electrical system, I will plan to use the SD-8 only as a back-up when/(if)
>the main 40amp fellow heads to greener pastures. Of course, in line with
>Bob's philosophy of exercising all things electrical from time to time, it
>would make sense to shut off the main alternator and energize the SD-8 (on
>downwind to landing, for example, in daylight) every now and then just to
>keep the electrons knowing where to go within the rather un-used wiring and
>to verify, via the voltmeter, that the SD-8 is indeed pumping and keeping
>the busses filled.
You can pre-flight check it. In fact, this is one of several
design goals for being able to turn either alternator on or off
at any time under any conditions. During mag check at elevated
RPM you could cycle the alternators to see that both are alive.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John D. Heath" <altoq(at)cebridge.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ON hold current for Bosch ice-cube relays |
Eris
0.160 amps (~75 ohm coil)
John D.
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 8:24 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ON hold current for Bosch ice-cube relays
>
>
> Does anyone have the typical ON hold current for the high-current Bosch
> relays such as Bosch p/n 0 332 209 150 ?
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10747#10747
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> relays |
| Subject: | Re: ON hold current for Bosch ice-cube relays |
>
>Does anyone have the typical ON hold current for the high-current Bosch
>relays such as Bosch p/n 0 332 209 150 ?
I don't have that part number but a quick look at the variety
of beer-can and plastic automotive relays in my stock show that
at room temperature, they pick up at about 50% of rated and hold
down to 15-25% of rated voltage. As temperature of relay goes
up, the hold current will be relatively constant while the hold
voltage climbs due tempco of copper in the coil.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
Howdy,
I wish to use two switches to control two batteries as follows:
I want the bottom position to be off.
I want the center position to be battery contactor on and alternator
field on.
I want the top position to be e-bus alternate feed on and alternator
field off.
Is this doable? What kind of switch do I need. How would I wire it?
Thanks,
Ed Holyoke
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Totten <john(at)totten.com> |
| Subject: | Inductive Spike from Starter Solenoid |
If anyone has a Cessna 185 alternator that goes off line
when the start the engine or retract the (amphib) gear -
then here is why. Your plane does not comply with ACS
SB92-01 and Cessna SEB91-5R1
http://www.caa.is/datadir/bsdata/img/adnotes/93-05-06.pdf
The parts needed to comply are available here
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06413.pdf
The $7 diode abolishes the starter solenoid inductive spike
and starter switch arching that trips the overvoltage relay
in the regulator. Most people that face this problem
misinterpret the problem as 'Load Dump' cause by drop in
the bus voltage from high starter loads. Not so. Disconnect
the starter and operate the solenoid alone - same problem.
The entire plane from the pilot seat forward is supplied
from the firewall solenoid positive terminal so the
solenoids inductive spike goes throughout the plane
including the panel and the regulator. It burns out not
only your avionics (if you don't have an avionics master
switch) but also the contacts in your starter switch so you
can't ground the mags. Thats why your mag check doesn't
drop the rpm - Not good.
The fix is a $7 dollar diode. Of the three C185's that I
have inspected besides mine - none comply with this SEB.
I also put the diode across the solenoid on my hydraulic
pump for the Amphib Floats which also threw the alternator
off line when the gear operated. So thats not a 'Load Dump'
problem either, its an inductive spike.
Call ACS at 602 855 8613. Save yourself the cost of that new
regulator, alternator, battery and huge mechanic bills for
a non-fix..
JohnT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ON hold current for Bosch ice-cube relays |
I got 140ma/ 85+/- 5 ohms
http://www.chiefent.com/products/product_details.asp?id=4
George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch Question |
>
>Howdy,
>
>I wish to use two switches to control two batteries as follows:
>I want the bottom position to be off.
>I want the center position to be battery contactor on and alternator
>field on.
>I want the top position to be e-bus alternate feed on and alternator
>field off.
>
>Is this doable? What kind of switch do I need. How would I wire it?
Would you leave the battery contactor closed while the e-bus
alternate feed is closed? Are you sure you want a single device
to have this much control over your system's functionality.
It becomes a single point of failure for lots of stuff. There's
a reason why those functions are separated out into two switches
in the Z-figures.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Inductive Spike from Starter Solenoid |
For additional background on this phenonmenon see
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
Bob . . .
>
>
>If anyone has a Cessna 185 alternator that goes off line
>when the start the engine or retract the (amphib) gear -
>then here is why. Your plane does not comply with ACS
>SB92-01 and Cessna SEB91-5R1
>
>http://www.caa.is/datadir/bsdata/img/adnotes/93-05-06.pdf
>
>The parts needed to comply are available here
>
>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/catalog/Cat06413.pdf
>
>The $7 diode abolishes the starter solenoid inductive spike
>and starter switch arching that trips the overvoltage relay
>in the regulator. Most people that face this problem
>misinterpret the problem as 'Load Dump' cause by drop in
>the bus voltage from high starter loads. Not so. Disconnect
>the starter and operate the solenoid alone - same problem.
>
>The entire plane from the pilot seat forward is supplied
>from the firewall solenoid positive terminal so the
>solenoids inductive spike goes throughout the plane
>including the panel and the regulator. It burns out not
>only your avionics (if you don't have an avionics master
>switch) but also the contacts in your starter switch so you
>can't ground the mags. Thats why your mag check doesn't
>drop the rpm - Not good.
>
>The fix is a $7 dollar diode. Of the three C185's that I
>have inspected besides mine - none comply with this SEB.
>
>I also put the diode across the solenoid on my hydraulic
>pump for the Amphib Floats which also threw the alternator
>off line when the gear operated. So thats not a 'Load Dump'
>problem either, its an inductive spike.
>
>Call ACS at 602 855 8613. Save yourself the cost of that new
>regulator, alternator, battery and huge mechanic bills for
>a non-fix..
>
>JohnT
>
>
>--
>
>
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
The only note of caution I would add is that you have a pretty big
single point of failure in that one switch...If the switch fails (and
they do) what happens to your ability to fly the airplane.
In my current single alt, two battery airplane I have no single
component common to both electrical systems...Except for the diode that
seperates the two...Each battery system then runs one fuel pump and one
electronic igniton.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 9:08 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Question
-->
Howdy,
I wish to use two switches to control two batteries as follows:
I want the bottom position to be off.
I want the center position to be battery contactor on and alternator
field on.
I want the top position to be e-bus alternate feed on and alternator
field off.
Is this doable? What kind of switch do I need. How would I wire it?
Thanks,
Ed Holyoke
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
Bob,
Sorry for not being more clear. My wife was calling me and I hurried to
complete and send without first proofreading.
I do want to turn off the contactor when I close the alternate feed.
Since I will have two batteries, each with the ability to feed the main
bus (and alternator field) and the e-bus, I'm not too worried about a
failure of one of the switches to take the whole system down. Should I
be?
It just occurred to me that, if I ignore the alternator field, it will
get power from the main bus any time that either contactor is closed and
unless the field breaker is pulled. Then I think I can use 2-10 switches
to open the contactors and close the alternate feeds with full down
being the both off position. Is this correct or is there a hazard in not
switching the alternator field with the master?
I'm trying to save panel space and make management of the busses simpler
(at least for me) by having all the functionality of each battery on one
switch each. Otherwise I would need four switches to get the same
functionality as the two switches I'm proposing and without the
(perceived) benefit of automatically disconnecting the contactor when I
go to the alt feed position. I just need to remember that if either
switch is in the alt feed position (all the way up) then the other
switch needs to be full up or full down. If the alternator goes belly
up, I would run on one battery only and if it runs down faster than
anticipated, I'd turn on the other battery and find a place to land
before I could run it down too.
On a related note, I have a swing down panel with fuse blocks on it for
main, e and one of the battery busses. The only thing on the other
battery bus would be an ignition for which I would use an inline fuse
holder or fusible link. It is about 3 feet from either of the batteries
and I'm thinking maybe I should use fusible links to protect them. I'm
planning to have a 40 amp alternator and two 17ah batteries. I'm looking
to feed the main bus with an 8awg from the connector between the battery
contactors, and the e-bus alternate feeds with 8awg feeders from each
battery though the switches as discussed above. Should any or all three
of these be fed through fusible links? If so, how would I go about
connecting a short piece of 12awg to the 8awg to make the link? I can't
seem to find any butt connectors larger than 10awg for sale. I guess I
could solder and heat shrink 'em.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
>
>Howdy,
>
>I wish to use two switches to control two batteries as follows:
>I want the bottom position to be off.
>I want the center position to be battery contactor on and alternator
>field on.
>I want the top position to be e-bus alternate feed on and alternator
>field off.
>
>Is this doable? What kind of switch do I need. How would I wire it?
Would you leave the battery contactor closed while the e-bus
alternate feed is closed? Are you sure you want a single device
to have this much control over your system's functionality.
It becomes a single point of failure for lots of stuff. There's
a reason why those functions are separated out into two switches
in the Z-figures.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dr. Peter Laurence" <Dr.Laurence(at)mbdi.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch Question |
> Howdy,
>
> I wish to use two switches to control two batteries as follows:
> I want the bottom position to be off.
> I want the center position to be battery contactor on and alternator
> field on.
> I want the top position to be e-bus alternate feed on and alternator
> field off.
>
> Is this doable? What kind of switch do I need. How would I wire it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed Holyoke
Ed,
I would not configure it this way. I would suggest the following:
Down-off
Middle- Battery contactor on
Up-Alternator(and battery on)
This config will not allow the alt to be energized without the battery on.
Utilize a single pole single throw switch for the e-buss.
If you need to de-energize the alternator, you can place the switch back to
the middleor pull the field breaker.
mtcw
Peter
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire sizing. |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>Keep in mind too that the 0.5 volt value is a rule-of-thumb.
> Consider that we expect things to perform in a useful way all the
> way down to battery-only ops of 11.0 volts. That's a whole lot more
> than 0.5 volts below a 14.2 volt bus when alternator is operating
> normally. If your "thumb" should turn out to be 0.6 or 0.7 or even
> 0.8 volts long, it's not going to make a big difference in the
> over-all scheme of things.
Actually, 0.5 volts it is a maximum limit for 14 volt devices under continuous
operation set by the FAA.
AC-43.13-1B 11-66 b (Table 11-6)
You can read it yourself here:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/99c827db9baac81b86256b4500596c4e/$FILE/Chapter%2011.pdf
For incandescent position lights to put out their rated candlepower, they have
to get the proper voltage. If there is excessive drop, your lights will be too
dim, other folks might not see you as well, and .....
LED position lights (with regulators) are uneffected by any reasonable voltage
drop, but they only draw about 1/2 Amp, so there is not much drop anyway.
Bill Dube'
http://www.killacycle.com/Lights.htm
>
>
>
>>
>>Well I guess as long as he can make it from the switch to the wingtip
>>using less than 23 feet of wire, he can stay within the allowed 0.5 volt
>>drop using 16 gage wire.
>>
>>(4.81/1000)*4.4*23 = 0.5 volts
>>
>>The wing is about 10 feet long. I'm not sure how much wire it will take
>>to get from the wing root to the switch, but 10 feet might be a good
>>guess. Probably would be OK.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
Howdy Peter,
I wasn't very clear. There would be two switches, one for each battery
allowing me to feed the main or e-bus with either or both battery(ies).
I'm not sure how the alternator field could be fed without a battery
contactor closed anyway. Your point is well taken that the alternator
can be taken off line by pulling the field breaker.
My latest thinking is to control the main and e-busses with two switches
as (poorly) described in my first post and rely on the field breaker for
ultimate alternator control. The breaker would not be powered if both of
the battery contactors (and with them, the main bus) were off. The
alternator field would be on line when either battery is powering the
main bus and the breaker is closed.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dr.
Peter Laurence
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch Question
> Howdy,
>
> I wish to use two switches to control two batteries as follows:
> I want the bottom position to be off.
> I want the center position to be battery contactor on and alternator
> field on.
> I want the top position to be e-bus alternate feed on and alternator
> field off.
>
> Is this doable? What kind of switch do I need. How would I wire it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed Holyoke
Ed,
I would not configure it this way. I would suggest the following:
Down-off
Middle- Battery contactor on
Up-Alternator(and battery on)
This config will not allow the alt to be energized without the battery
on.
Utilize a single pole single throw switch for the e-buss.
If you need to de-energize the alternator, you can place the switch back
to
the middleor pull the field breaker.
mtcw
Peter
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry2DT(at)aol.com |
Listers,
This question has been asked before by others, but replies are unclear. The
good folks at Icom have put an insufficient (IMO) "wiring diagram" in their
one sheet fold-out instructions. This is not like the ones we see on this
list, so they must think we are incapable of reading a "real" one.
Now that I've vented... Has anyone out there made a genuine one for this
radio that I can beg, borrow, steal? My setup is with two of these radios, but
with no audio panel.
This might have been a mistake, trying to save weight, time, panel space,
and $$$...
Jerry Cochran
Wilsonville, OR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net> |
hi all,
I have several antennas to install. My elt requires a ground plane. Tim at b and
c was very helpful with my questions but i question leads to 5 more. Is there
any way around a ground plane for the elt? If not, any suggestions on how to
make it in my wood/cloth fuselage? At first i thought numerous strips of thin
copper way the way to go but that looks like just more fasteners. Can a very
thin sheet be laid down in the fuse. bottom? It wouldnt exactly be flat with
all the woodworking to go around.
Also, my dipole comm must be vertical. No more than 45 deg slant. is 30 deg vastly
better than 45 deg and is 15 deg vastly better than 30 deg. Are these slanted
antennas going to noticeably going to affect transmission/ reception that
much anyway?
Anyone want to volunteer a phone number to me off list? i have more questions
every time i get one answered.
Thanks in advance, bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>hi all,
> I have several antennas to install. My elt requires a ground plane. Tim
> at b and c was very helpful with my questions but i question leads to 5
> more. Is there any way around a ground plane for the elt? If not, any
> suggestions on how to make it in my wood/cloth fuselage? At first i
> thought numerous strips of thin copper way the way to go but that looks
> like just more fasteners. Can a very thin sheet be laid down in the fuse.
> bottom? It wouldnt exactly be flat with all the woodworking to go around.
If it's wood and fabric, I'd go with a vertical dipole wrapped
around the inside surface of the fuselage. Perhaps on side opposite
your comm dipole cited below and separated some fore/aft as well . . .
> Also, my dipole comm must be vertical. No more than 45 deg slant. is 30
> deg vastly better than 45 deg and is 15 deg vastly better than 30 deg.
> Are these slanted antennas going to noticeably going to affect
> transmission/ reception that much anyway?
No . . . the lion's share of antenna performance happens
in the first 25% of length each side of center (about 5")
meaning that things you do with the last 15" per side are
not terribly critical. Get as much of the center section for
both antennas as vertical as practical, then wrap the ends
around the inside surface of the fuselage.
They'll drop in center frequency as you "fold" them so you
MIGHT want to check them with an SWR/Antenna analyzer and
trim them for optimum.
> Anyone want to volunteer a phone number to me off list? i have more
> questions every time i get one answered.
Let's do it on the list. If your questions are worth
asking, then they're worth sharing too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
>
>Listers,
>
>This question has been asked before by others, but replies are unclear. The
>good folks at Icom have put an insufficient (IMO) "wiring diagram" in their
>one sheet fold-out instructions. This is not like the ones we see on this
>list, so they must think we are incapable of reading a "real" one.
>
>Now that I've vented... Has anyone out there made a genuine one for this
>radio that I can beg, borrow, steal? My setup is with two of these
>radios, but
>with no audio panel.
>This might have been a mistake, trying to save weight, time, panel space,
>and $$$...
Got a 'net address for their published schematic?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
bob noffs wrote:
> Is there any way around a ground plane for the elt?
No.
> If not, any suggestions on how to make it in my wood/cloth fuselage?
Most anything will do. You want some strips of copper or wire that are
the same length as the ELT antenna, i.e. 1/4 wave at 121.5 MHz (about
25" or so). A flat piece of metal 25" in radius or larger would work.
And it may be oddly shaped.
> Can a very thin sheet be laid down in the fuse. bottom?
Certainly. That would be fine.
> It wouldnt exactly be flat with all the woodworking to go around.
That doesn't matter.
> Also, my dipole comm must be vertical. No more than 45 deg slant. is 30 deg
vastly better than 45 deg and is 15 deg vastly better than 30
deg.
The closer you are to vertical, the better it will work but anything
will work after a fashion, even horizontal. Just try to get it as
vertical as possible.
> Are these slanted antennas going to noticeably going to affect transmission/
reception that much anyway?
Odds are, no, you won't notice the difference.
> Anyone want to volunteer a phone number to me off list? i have more questions
every time i get one answered.
If I have time I would answer your questions.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
Guess I forgot to ask if you had a dual freq ELT . . . I guess all the
new ones are. In this case, the ground plane under a stock antenna is
necessary. But since it's a dual freq, one might argue that two sets of
radials would be good . . . one set tuned for 121.5 (24") and another
set optimized for 406 (7.3"). Hmmm . . . maybe a 7.3" radius piece of
copper foil with a few 20" legs soldered to the edge. The single dipole
I suggested would not be suited for dual frequency use (although one
COULD be crafted . . . it would probably be more trouble than it's worth).
Bob . . .
>
>hi all,
> I have several antennas to install. My elt requires a ground plane. Tim
> at b and c was very helpful with my questions but i question leads to 5
> more. Is there any way around a ground plane for the elt? If not, any
> suggestions on how to make it in my wood/cloth fuselage? At first i
> thought numerous strips of thin copper way the way to go but that looks
> like just more fasteners. Can a very thin sheet be laid down in the fuse.
> bottom? It wouldnt exactly be flat with all the woodworking to go around.
If it's wood and fabric, I'd go with a vertical dipole wrapped
around the inside surface of the fuselage. Perhaps on side opposite
your comm dipole cited below and separated some fore/aft as well . . .
> Also, my dipole comm must be vertical. No more than 45 deg slant. is 30
> deg vastly better than 45 deg and is 15 deg vastly better than 30 deg.
> Are these slanted antennas going to noticeably going to affect
> transmission/ reception that much anyway?
No . . . the lion's share of antenna performance happens
in the first 25% of length each side of center (about 5")
meaning that things you do with the last 15" per side are
not terribly critical. Get as much of the center section for
both antennas as vertical as practical, then wrap the ends
around the inside surface of the fuselage.
They'll drop in center frequency as you "fold" them so you
MIGHT want to check them with an SWR/Antenna analyzer and
trim them for optimum.
> Anyone want to volunteer a phone number to me off list? i have more
> questions every time i get one answered.
Let's do it on the list. If your questions are worth
asking, then they're worth sharing too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
In theory, the amount of loss varies as the cosine of the angle difference
between the transmitting and receiving antennas. At a 45 degree angle, you
lose 3dB, which is somewhat noticeable, because it is actually 1/2 of the
power lost. At 90 degrees, it is over 20dB loss, which is substantial.
In practice, the signals bounce around and may not arrive at your antenna
perfectly vertically polarized to begin with, but it doesn't hurt to make
it as close to vertical as possible. The problems will mainly show up when
you're a long way away from the ground station. When you're close, it
won't make much difference.
Dave Morris
At 05:30 PM 2/9/2006, you wrote:
>
> Also, my dipole comm must be vertical. No more than 45 deg slant. is 30
> deg vastly better than 45 deg and is 15 deg vastly better than 30 deg.
> Are these slanted antennas going to noticeably going to affect
> transmission/ reception that much anyway?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
> Got a 'net address for their published schematic?
I've scanned one here:
http://rv8.ch/files/Icom%20IC-A200%20Installation%20Instructions.pdf
Basically you want page 5. Sorry about the huge file size
for those of you not on broadband. It's about 6MB.
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net> |
hi all,
i have gotten quite a bit of info from the responses to my questions. i now am
confident i can mount my comm antenna and transponder and they will work. the
elt with a ground plane still has me stalled though. will have more questions
about that , just wanted to let everyone know how helpful the responses were.
gotta go make donuts now.
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
>
>
> > Got a 'net address for their published schematic?
>
>
>I've scanned one here:
>
>http://rv8.ch/files/Icom%20IC-A200%20Installation%20Instructions.pdf
>
>Basically you want page 5. Sorry about the huge file size
>for those of you not on broadband. It's about 6MB.
Mmmm . . . pretty cryptic instructions. I'm not sure how
the intercom feature works since they don't show how to hook
up a second headset/mic circuit. And for a radio that draws
2.6A in transmit, the power and grounding requirements are
a tad hyperbolic. They also call out requirements in the
text that are not repeated/illustrated in the drawings.
I'll study this a bit and see if I can unravel the "code" . . .
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> Guess I forgot to ask if you had a dual freq ELT . . . I guess all the
> new ones are.
The old ones are too. They operate at 121.5 MHz and 243 MHz.
> In this case, the ground plane under a stock antenna is
> necessary. But since it's a dual freq, one might argue that two sets of
> radials would be good . . . one set tuned for 121.5 (24") and another
> set optimized for 406 (7.3"). Hmmm . . . maybe a 7.3" radius piece of
> copper foil with a few 20" legs soldered to the edge. The single dipole
> I suggested would not be suited for dual frequency use (although one
> COULD be crafted . . . it would probably be more trouble than it's worth).
And a tuned 1/4 wave counterpoise (radials) for 121.5 MHz is totally
useless at 243 MHz. Good point about having two sets of radials.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
Cc: ,
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "bob noffs"
2/10/2006
Hello Bob, Dare I post some heresy? Will the gummint sic its watch dogs on
me? Will the electromagnetic radiation purists on the list rise up in total
fury to slap me down? Well, I'll take a chance.
Suppose that the gummint, in its infinite wisdom, mandated that every
aircraft carry 3 pounds of butter and a container of maple syrup just in
case the survival situation after crashing resulted in a supply of pancakes
as the available food supply. Would you insist on carrying genuine maple
syrup or would an imitation be good enough for you?
Maybe an ELT is a little more useful than butter and maple syrup in a crash
situation, but I sure as hell wouldn't place my entire faith in being found
and rescued in one of the garden variety ELT's that we are mandated to
carry. My point is that obsessing over antenna ground plane details is
wasted time.
Nobody knows exactly what attitude their aircraft will be in when it
finishes crashing. The ELT antenna could end up pointing directly down at,
and a few inches from, the surface of the earth. How much difference would a
perfect ground plane, if one could construct one, make in that situation?
Here is my thinking:
1) To be legal, buy one of the garden variety ELT's that we are mandated to
carry. Install it securely in the proper location in the proper attitude
with regard to its deceleration sensor. Fasten on the wire antenna that came
with the ELT and don't obsess over ground planes or what the antenna's
attitude will be when you finish crashing. Go fly.
2) If you want to take some truly effective steps for rescue after crashing
you can, and probably should to the degree that you are concerned and
considering routes of flight, do some or all of the following.
2A) Always carry a hand held VHF comm radio with a battery supply that you
KNOW to be capable of extended operation.
2B) Always carry a cell phone with a battery supply that you KNOW to be
capable of extended operation.
2C) Purchase and carry a PLB http://www.equipped.com/faq_plb/default.asp
2D) Carry a tough plastic container of water -- size your choice. My
experience with even short time rescued people is that they experienced an
almost mentally debilitating thirst shortly after crashing.
2E) Carry a knife of enough size and sturdiness to punch through / crack
your plastic windows and canopy.
I am sure that other posters will add their favorite / essential crash
survival items, but obsessing over these items falls into the same category
of time wasting like obsessing over ground planes. Take what you deem to be
reasonable precautions to be rescued after a survivable crash and then
proceed to fly worry and guilt free (and legal).
OC
PS: If you have the bank account to afford one of the new 406 Mhz ELT's, go
for it.
<< hi all, I have several antennas to install. My elt requires a ground
plane. Tim at b and
c was very helpful with my questions but i question leads to 5 more. Is
there
any way around a ground plane for the elt? If not, any suggestions on how to
make it in my wood/cloth fuselage? At first i thought numerous strips of
thin
copper way the way to go but that looks like just more fasteners. Can a very
thin sheet be laid down in the fuse. bottom? It wouldnt exactly be flat with
all the woodworking to go around.....skip.....Thanks in advance, bob noffs>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | A Better PLB Web Site |
2/10/2006
I wish that I had included this web site in my response to Bob Noffs'
question about making a ground plane for an ELT antenna.
http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html
Here is an extract from that site regarding our currently government
mandated ELT's:
"Unfortunately, these have proven to be highly ineffective. They have a 97%
false alarm rate, activate properly in only 12% of crashes, and provide no
identification data."
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
Jerry:
I agree with you that the diagram and instructions are not real clear, but I
can help. What do you not understand. We can go over it pin by pin.
First I have to admit you set-up does not make a lot of sense to me. I don't
understand the use of two ICOM's A200, no intercom or audio panel.
What kind of plane and use (VFR, IFR). I assume you have a one place plane because
you really need a VOX intercom. The ICOM has an intercom but....
The built in intercom is really a super simple non-VOX button activated intercom
that works independent of transmitting (ie either radio or intercom but not
both at the same time, optional toggle switch needs to be installed.)
As far as audio panel, when you have two COMs it is hard to get around but can
be done with some simple switches, but you really are limiting the usefulness
of two COM's. There are some cheap used audio panels on eBay. You could make
a simple switch to select which radio you want to transmit on and feed one radio
audio thru the aux input of the other, making one the "master". This is non-standard
wiring. I understand the need to listen to two radios at one time,
ATC and ATIS for example. However the elegant solution is the Apollo SL40 with
two receivers built in, which allows listening to two freqs at the same time.
Since you can only transmit on one Freq at a time why two radios. In the old
days it was nice to have two radios, so you could store two freqs, one in each
radio, but two radios is less an advantage with Flip flop freq features of new
radios. The nice thing is to listen to two freqs which the single Apollo SL40
does.
Don't get me wrong the ICOM is awesome, but do you really need two radios? If
you do I would consider a audio panel. If you have a two place I would consider
an intercom. PS engineering makes a cool little intercom, simple audio panel
to handle just two coms.
I sent you an off line email and we can talk about it.
George (completed two ICOM A200 installations so I am an expert :-) )
From: Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icom A200-Help!
Listers,
This question has been asked before by others, but replies are unclear. The
good folks at Icom have put an insufficient (IMO) "wiring diagram" in their
one sheet fold-out instructions. This is not like the ones we see on this
list, so they must think we are incapable of reading a "real" one.
Now that I've vented... Has anyone out there made a genuine one for this
radio that I can beg, borrow, steal? My setup is with two of these radios, but
with no audio panel.
This might have been a mistake, trying to save weight, time, panel space,
and $$$...
Jerry Cochran
Wilsonville, OR
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy & Linda Nelson" <RLNelson-5(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Electronics info needed |
Hello to all. New to this list. I need some electronics type people to help
on this one.
I am redoing a 1956 Piper Tri-pacer panel.
I have the reserve fuel option. This option has a 8 gallon tank under the
rear seat. This 8 gal tank feeds a small Facet 12v 30 gph pump, which feeds
into the Rh rear wing tank fuel line.
The pump is actuated by a very antique type push pull switch that no longer
works. It is no longer available . So I am free to come up with a
alternate/equivalent type switch.
The specs say to run this pump for 25 to 30 min after the Rh main tank is
empty and fuel valve switched to the left tank.
The 1st problem is the switch is inop as above.
The 2nd problem is that it is very easy to forget about the Res. Fuel switch
and leave the pump running.
So I would like the new switch setup to do the following .
Replace old inop switch with Regular Toggle Switch .
Add Indicator light [ Res. Fuel, yellow] on dash that goes on ,
Pump starts to pump.
Add some sort of electronic timer attached to switch starts . After 25-30
min the timer will shut off the pump . [I have replaced the fuel lines for
this pump and have changed the -3 fuel line to a -4 line so it would be
nice to have a time adjustment if the pump empty's out the tank faster.]
The [Res. Fuel yellow] indicator light turns off and pump turns off.
Res fuel switch auto returns to off or sort of half off where you have to
reset the switch to start over.
This pump does not draw a lot of amps 1-3 amps
I am ok with electronics and following a schematic and wiring it.
I am a A+P and am working on my own plane.
Thanks
Randy N
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)telepath.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A Better PLB Web Site |
> "Unfortunately, these have proven to be highly ineffective. They
have
> a 97% false alarm rate, activate properly in only 12% of crashes,
and
> provide no identification data."
Not that it would, or could, ever make a difference....my lowly Bendix
King KLX100 handheld GPS/Comm had a neat feature that, upon
activation, broadcast, on 121.5, a 15 second voice message of your
choice then followed that with a voice sythesized message of the
unit's lat/lon. Same problems still inherent....I can imagine lying there
having that thing broadcasting where I am and no one hearing it. I
think I'll start carrying the butter and syrup.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy & Linda Nelson" <RLNelson-5(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Electronics info needed |
Hello to all. New to this list. I need some electronics type people to help
on this one.
I am redoing a 1956 Piper Tri-pacer panel.
I have the reserve fuel option. This option has a 8 gallon tank under the
rear seat. This 8 gal tank feeds a small Facet 12v 30 gph pump, which feeds
into the Rh rear wing tank fuel line.
The pump is actuated by a very antique type push pull switch that no longer
works. It is no longer available . So I am free to come up with a
alternate/equivalent type switch.
The specs say to run this pump for 25 to 30 min after the Rh main tank is
empty and fuel valve switched to the left tank.
The 1st problem is the switch is inop as above.
The 2nd problem is that it is very easy to forget about the Res. Fuel switch
and leave the pump running.
So I would like the new switch setup to do the following .
Replace old inop switch with Regular Toggle Switch .
Add Indicator light [ Res. Fuel, yellow] on dash that goes on ,
Pump starts to pump.
Add some sort of electronic timer attached to switch starts . After 25-30
min the timer will shut off the pump . [I have replaced the fuel lines for
this pump and have changed the -3 fuel line to a -4 line so it would be
nice to have a time adjustment if the pump empty's out the tank faster.]
The [Res. Fuel yellow] indicator light turns off and pump turns off.
Res fuel switch auto returns to off or sort of half off where you have to
reset the switch to start over.
This pump does not draw a lot of amps 1-3 amps
I am ok with electronics and following a schematic and wiring it.
I am a A+P and am working on my own plane.
Thanks
Randy N
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
Curious why you did not mention a sat phone? They save lives all the time
all that is needed is a list of appropriate phone numbers. Cost is coming
down all the time and even used hand sets are available. Save your self
instead of depending on the system.
Regards, Paul
=============
At 02:28 AM 2/10/2006, you wrote:
>
>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "bob noffs"
>
>
>2/10/2006
>
>Hello Bob, Dare I post some heresy? Will the gummint sic its watch dogs on
>me? Will the electromagnetic radiation purists on the list rise up in total
>fury to slap me down? Well, I'll take a chance.
>
>Suppose that the gummint, in its infinite wisdom, mandated that every
>aircraft carry 3 pounds of butter and a container of maple syrup just in
>case the survival situation after crashing resulted in a supply of pancakes
>as the available food supply. Would you insist on carrying genuine maple
>syrup or would an imitation be good enough for you?
>
>Maybe an ELT is a little more useful than butter and maple syrup in a crash
>situation, but I sure as hell wouldn't place my entire faith in being found
>and rescued in one of the garden variety ELT's that we are mandated to
>carry. My point is that obsessing over antenna ground plane details is
>wasted time.
>
>Nobody knows exactly what attitude their aircraft will be in when it
>finishes crashing. The ELT antenna could end up pointing directly down at,
>and a few inches from, the surface of the earth. How much difference would a
>perfect ground plane, if one could construct one, make in that situation?
>
>Here is my thinking:
>
>1) To be legal, buy one of the garden variety ELT's that we are mandated to
>carry. Install it securely in the proper location in the proper attitude
>with regard to its deceleration sensor. Fasten on the wire antenna that came
>with the ELT and don't obsess over ground planes or what the antenna's
>attitude will be when you finish crashing. Go fly.
>
>2) If you want to take some truly effective steps for rescue after crashing
>you can, and probably should to the degree that you are concerned and
>considering routes of flight, do some or all of the following.
>
>2A) Always carry a hand held VHF comm radio with a battery supply that you
>KNOW to be capable of extended operation.
>
>2B) Always carry a cell phone with a battery supply that you KNOW to be
>capable of extended operation.
>
>2C) Purchase and carry a PLB http://www.equipped.com/faq_plb/default.asp
>
>2D) Carry a tough plastic container of water -- size your choice. My
>experience with even short time rescued people is that they experienced an
>almost mentally debilitating thirst shortly after crashing.
>
>2E) Carry a knife of enough size and sturdiness to punch through / crack
>your plastic windows and canopy.
>
>I am sure that other posters will add their favorite / essential crash
>survival items, but obsessing over these items falls into the same category
>of time wasting like obsessing over ground planes. Take what you deem to be
>reasonable precautions to be rescued after a survivable crash and then
>proceed to fly worry and guilt free (and legal).
>
>OC
>
>PS: If you have the bank account to afford one of the new 406 Mhz ELT's, go
>for it.
>
><< hi all, I have several antennas to install. My elt requires a ground
>plane. Tim at b and
>c was very helpful with my questions but i question leads to 5 more. Is
>there
>any way around a ground plane for the elt? If not, any suggestions on how to
>make it in my wood/cloth fuselage? At first i thought numerous strips of
>thin
>copper way the way to go but that looks like just more fasteners. Can a very
>thin sheet be laid down in the fuse. bottom? It wouldnt exactly be flat with
>all the woodworking to go around.....skip.....Thanks in advance, bob noffs>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Russell Voyager Travel <ron(at)voyagertravel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronics info needed |
I also have a 56 Tri-Pacer. The push pull switch is connected to a cable
that operates a valve. This valve prevents the fuel in the wing tank from
flowing to the aux. tank when the pump is off. If this valve is not closed
and the pump is off I have seen fuel come out the Aux. fuel cap.
Does your plane still have this mechanical valve?
Ron Russell
At 08:53 AM 2/10/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>Hello to all. New to this list. I need some electronics type people to help
>on this one.
>I am redoing a 1956 Piper Tri-pacer panel.
>
> I have the reserve fuel option. This option has a 8 gallon tank under the
>rear seat. This 8 gal tank feeds a small Facet 12v 30 gph pump, which feeds
>into the Rh rear wing tank fuel line.
>
>The pump is actuated by a very antique type push pull switch that no longer
>works. It is no longer available . So I am free to come up with a
>alternate/equivalent type switch.
>
>The specs say to run this pump for 25 to 30 min after the Rh main tank is
>empty and fuel valve switched to the left tank.
>
>The 1st problem is the switch is inop as above.
>The 2nd problem is that it is very easy to forget about the Res. Fuel switch
>and leave the pump running.
>
> So I would like the new switch setup to do the following .
>
>Replace old inop switch with Regular Toggle Switch .
>
> Add Indicator light [ Res. Fuel, yellow] on dash that goes on ,
>
> Pump starts to pump.
>
> Add some sort of electronic timer attached to switch starts . After 25-30
>min the timer will shut off the pump . [I have replaced the fuel lines for
>this pump and have changed the -3 fuel line to a -4 line so it would be
>nice to have a time adjustment if the pump empty's out the tank faster.]
>
>The [Res. Fuel yellow] indicator light turns off and pump turns off.
>
> Res fuel switch auto returns to off or sort of half off where you have to
>reset the switch to start over.
>
> This pump does not draw a lot of amps 1-3 amps
>
> I am ok with electronics and following a schematic and wiring it.
>
>I am a A+P and am working on my own plane.
>Thanks
> Randy N
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Electronics info needed |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
So Facet pumps can now be used on certified aircraft?....Geee guess us
experimental drivers are not so far out of line cus we've been using
them for years!..:)
The easiest option I see is a simple on/off switch ($2 from our local Bi
mart..Knects stock them too I think they are Neilhoff brand or
something....I been using a panel full of these for 6 years never had
one go bad) and a LED potted for 12V (or do you run 24V?...In which case
just plumb a resistor in line) to show you when you have the pump on.
If the wing tank is bigger than your res tank just empty it and dump it
all in there at once.
There is a fuel pump minder cuircuit that will switch it off when it
detects the electrical load has gone away...i.e when the res tank is
empty...More functionality than I need however.
Cheers
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
& Linda Nelson
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:02 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronics info needed
-->
Hello to all. New to this list. I need some electronics type people to
help on this one.
I am redoing a 1956 Piper Tri-pacer panel.
I have the reserve fuel option. This option has a 8 gallon tank under
the rear seat. This 8 gal tank feeds a small Facet 12v 30 gph pump,
which feeds into the Rh rear wing tank fuel line.
The pump is actuated by a very antique type push pull switch that no
longer works. It is no longer available . So I am free to come up with a
alternate/equivalent type switch.
The specs say to run this pump for 25 to 30 min after the Rh main tank
is empty and fuel valve switched to the left tank.
The 1st problem is the switch is inop as above.
The 2nd problem is that it is very easy to forget about the Res. Fuel
switch and leave the pump running.
So I would like the new switch setup to do the following .
Replace old inop switch with Regular Toggle Switch .
Add Indicator light [ Res. Fuel, yellow] on dash that goes on ,
Pump starts to pump.
Add some sort of electronic timer attached to switch starts . After
25-30 min the timer will shut off the pump . [I have replaced the fuel
lines for this pump and have changed the -3 fuel line to a -4 line so
it would be nice to have a time adjustment if the pump empty's out the
tank faster.]
The [Res. Fuel yellow] indicator light turns off and pump turns off.
Res fuel switch auto returns to off or sort of half off where you have
to reset the switch to start over.
This pump does not draw a lot of amps 1-3 amps
I am ok with electronics and following a schematic and wiring it.
I am a A+P and am working on my own plane.
Thanks
Randy N
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
I've done several instalations too but never 2 A200s together. I dont doubt
it can be done simply with switching but cant really see the usefulness.
The schematic in the handbook isn't of much use and mine contains an error
anyway. As for installing a single A200, I dont support the use of a toggle
switch. Much better to use a DPDT push-button switch as the PTT. Wire the
two headsets up to the intercom mic pin on the A200 using the NC switch
contacts but with the PIC microphone being switched to the Comms mic pin on
the A200 once the PTT is pressed. The co-pilot's mic is wired such that the
PTT activation grounds it, while also taking the PTT pin on the A200 to
ground, thus switching the radio from receive to transmit.
All that is probably a little hard to follow and probably demonstrates why
we use schematics? I have a smple schematic here somewhere, packed up among
my yet to be sorted papers. I can probably find it if that would help.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:33 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help!
>
> Jerry:
>
> I agree with you that the diagram and instructions are not real clear,
> but I can help. What do you not understand. We can go over it pin by pin.
>
> First I have to admit you set-up does not make a lot of sense to me. I
> don't understand the use of two ICOM's A200, no intercom or audio panel.
>
> What kind of plane and use (VFR, IFR). I assume you have a one place
> plane because you really need a VOX intercom. The ICOM has an intercom
> but....
>
> The built in intercom is really a super simple non-VOX button activated
> intercom that works independent of transmitting (ie either radio or
> intercom but not both at the same time, optional toggle switch needs to be
> installed.)
>
> As far as audio panel, when you have two COMs it is hard to get around
> but can be done with some simple switches, but you really are limiting the
> usefulness of two COM's. There are some cheap used audio panels on eBay.
> You could make a simple switch to select which radio you want to transmit
> on and feed one radio audio thru the aux input of the other, making one
> the "master". This is non-standard wiring. I understand the need to listen
> to two radios at one time, ATC and ATIS for example. However the elegant
> solution is the Apollo SL40 with two receivers built in, which allows
> listening to two freqs at the same time. Since you can only transmit on
> one Freq at a time why two radios. In the old days it was nice to have two
> radios, so you could store two freqs, one in each radio, but two radios is
> less an advantage with Flip flop freq features of new radios. The nice
> thing is to listen to two freqs which the single Apollo SL40 does.
>
> Don't get me wrong the ICOM is awesome, but do you really need two
> radios? If you do I would consider a audio panel. If you have a two place
> I would consider an intercom. PS engineering makes a cool little intercom,
> simple audio panel to handle just two coms.
>
> I sent you an off line email and we can talk about it.
>
> George (completed two ICOM A200 installations so I am an expert :-) )
>
> From: Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icom A200-Help!
>
>
> Listers,
>
> This question has been asked before by others, but replies are unclear.
> The
> good folks at Icom have put an insufficient (IMO) "wiring diagram" in
> their
> one sheet fold-out instructions. This is not like the ones we see on this
> list, so they must think we are incapable of reading a "real" one.
>
> Now that I've vented... Has anyone out there made a genuine one for this
> radio that I can beg, borrow, steal? My setup is with two of these radios,
> but
>
> with no audio panel.
> This might have been a mistake, trying to save weight, time, panel space,
> and $$$...
>
> Jerry Cochran
> Wilsonville, OR
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
Has it been considered that the second radio might only be used for receive
only monitoring?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill
Maxwell
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help!
I've done several instalations too but never 2 A200s together. I dont doubt
it can be done simply with switching but cant really see the usefulness.
The schematic in the handbook isn't of much use and mine contains an error
anyway. As for installing a single A200, I dont support the use of a toggle
switch. Much better to use a DPDT push-button switch as the PTT. Wire the
two headsets up to the intercom mic pin on the A200 using the NC switch
contacts but with the PIC microphone being switched to the Comms mic pin on
the A200 once the PTT is pressed. The co-pilot's mic is wired such that the
PTT activation grounds it, while also taking the PTT pin on the A200 to
ground, thus switching the radio from receive to transmit.
All that is probably a little hard to follow and probably demonstrates why
we use schematics? I have a smple schematic here somewhere, packed up among
my yet to be sorted papers. I can probably find it if that would help.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:33 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help!
>
> Jerry:
>
> I agree with you that the diagram and instructions are not real clear,
> but I can help. What do you not understand. We can go over it pin by pin.
>
> First I have to admit you set-up does not make a lot of sense to me. I
> don't understand the use of two ICOM's A200, no intercom or audio panel.
>
> What kind of plane and use (VFR, IFR). I assume you have a one place
> plane because you really need a VOX intercom. The ICOM has an intercom
> but....
>
> The built in intercom is really a super simple non-VOX button activated
> intercom that works independent of transmitting (ie either radio or
> intercom but not both at the same time, optional toggle switch needs to be
> installed.)
>
> As far as audio panel, when you have two COMs it is hard to get around
> but can be done with some simple switches, but you really are limiting the
> usefulness of two COM's. There are some cheap used audio panels on eBay.
> You could make a simple switch to select which radio you want to transmit
> on and feed one radio audio thru the aux input of the other, making one
> the "master". This is non-standard wiring. I understand the need to listen
> to two radios at one time, ATC and ATIS for example. However the elegant
> solution is the Apollo SL40 with two receivers built in, which allows
> listening to two freqs at the same time. Since you can only transmit on
> one Freq at a time why two radios. In the old days it was nice to have two
> radios, so you could store two freqs, one in each radio, but two radios is
> less an advantage with Flip flop freq features of new radios. The nice
> thing is to listen to two freqs which the single Apollo SL40 does.
>
> Don't get me wrong the ICOM is awesome, but do you really need two
> radios? If you do I would consider a audio panel. If you have a two place
> I would consider an intercom. PS engineering makes a cool little intercom,
> simple audio panel to handle just two coms.
>
> I sent you an off line email and we can talk about it.
>
> George (completed two ICOM A200 installations so I am an expert :-) )
>
> From: Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icom A200-Help!
>
>
> Listers,
>
> This question has been asked before by others, but replies are unclear.
> The
> good folks at Icom have put an insufficient (IMO) "wiring diagram" in
> their
> one sheet fold-out instructions. This is not like the ones we see on this
> list, so they must think we are incapable of reading a "real" one.
>
> Now that I've vented... Has anyone out there made a genuine one for this
> radio that I can beg, borrow, steal? My setup is with two of these radios,
> but
>
> with no audio panel.
> This might have been a mistake, trying to save weight, time, panel space,
> and $$$...
>
> Jerry Cochran
> Wilsonville, OR
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics-List: A Better PLB Web Site |
Cc: ,
Folks,
See my previous post, I rest my case.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
At 21:42 10/02/2006, bakerocb(at)cox.net wrote:
>--> Avionics-List message posted by:
>
>2/10/2006
>
>I wish that I had included this web site in my response to Bob Noffs'
>question about making a ground plane for an ELT antenna.
>
>http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html
>
>Here is an extract from that site regarding our currently government
>mandated ELT's:
>
>"Unfortunately, these have proven to be highly ineffective. They have a 97%
>false alarm rate, activate properly in only 12% of crashes, and provide no
>identification data."
>
>OC
>
>
CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE
W.J.R.Hamilton,Glenalmond Group Companies,Fighter Flights Internet
Services and Warbirds.Net. & .
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addressee. It is confidential and may contain legally privileged
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Dolores capitis non fero. Eos do.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
>
>
>I've done several instalations too but never 2 A200s together. I dont doubt
>it can be done simply with switching but cant really see the usefulness.
>
>The schematic in the handbook isn't of much use and mine contains an error
>anyway. As for installing a single A200, I dont support the use of a toggle
>switch.
What is the error you've identified?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N395V" <N395V(at)direcway.com> |
absolutely marvelous info filled discussion. Read the whole thread this am and
learned a lot.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11405#11405
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
Anyone know the "pinouts" for an 1/8" male stereo headphone jack? I'm
connecting an MP3 player in, but don't know this worldwide standard!
Thanks,
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 712 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
Alex Peterson wrote:
>
> Anyone know the "pinouts" for an 1/8" male stereo headphone jack? I'm
> connecting an MP3 player in, but don't know this worldwide standard!
Hi Alex,
I believe the tip is left channel +,
the middle is right channel +, and the
base is the common.
Check here:
http://www.epanorama.net/links/pc_sound.html
and scroll down to "Audio output connectors".
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JOHNATHAN MACY <bushpilot(at)optonline.net> |
Bob,
The primary small gage wiring on the design is 4 AWG. Between the cross feed contactor
and the main battery contactor you show a 2 AWG. This is the only place
on the design that is using a 2 AWG wire. Why does it need to be 2 AWG? Will
4 AWG work?
Thanks,
Johnathan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry2DT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
Thanks to all who have answered. I have two reasons for dual A200 Comms. One
is I simply like a backup, we do a lot of long cross-countries. Secondly,
when going into Bravo airspace, I like to have 4 freqs loaded and ready. My
wife, Susan, is a student pilot who likes to handle the radios, and this makes
it easy for both of us. We have a flying 6a also with two comms so are used to
it.. I have received offline help that looks very viable and will report
back, hopefully with a schematic.
BTW, after all the effort Bob K has gone to teaching all of us about proper
schematics, I find it ironic that some manufacturers don't follow the same
convention. Bob, will you please straighten these guys out??? :-)
Regards,
Jerry Cochran
In a message dated 2/11/2006 12:03:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
From: "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help!
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Maxwell"
I've done several instalations too but never 2 A200s together. I dont doubt
it can be done simply with switching but cant really see the usefulness.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Cameras in airplanes |
Not sure if it was on this list or not, but I've found a pretty good place
for color CCD cameras and DVR's of all flavors, including the new personal
ones.
www.atvresearch.com
Thought I'd pass it along,
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
Cc:
| Subject: | Electronics info needed |
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
(Corvallis)"
<>
2/11/2006
Hello Frank, In discussing / evaluating fuel pumps one must distinguish
between pumps being used to supply fuel to an operating engine and those
being used to transfer fuel from one tank to another.
Engine driven mechanical fuel pumps are almost invariably used to supply
fuel to an operating engine and would be sized and pressure speced
appropriately.**
Electrically driven fuel pumps (commonly, and sometimes erroneously, called
fuel "boost pumps") can be used to:
1) Provide priming fuel flow prior to engine start.
2) Provide a head source to the inlet of the engine driven fuel pump to
reduce / eliminate the possibility of cavitation in the inlet of the engine
driven fuel pump while the engine is operating.
3) Provide an actual flow of fuel sufficient to operate the engine if the
mechanically driven fuel pump has failed.
4) Transfer fuel from one fuel tank to another.
I am too lazy to research the pre FAR Part 23 requirements for fuel pumps,
but I would bet that the flow requirements for fuel transfer pumps back then
were less than the flow requirements for engine operating pumps just as is
the case in Part 23.955 today. That may be why the Facet pump was acceptable
as a fuel transfer pump back then.
In recent application the type certificated Diamond DA-20 C1 airplane,
powered with the TCM IO-240 B3B engine, initially had a Facet fuel pump
installed for the purpose of priming that fuel injected engine prior to
starting. No transfer activity was involved since the plane had only one
main fuel tank.
The DA-20 C1 POH specifically said that the Facet pump was not intended to
keep the engine operating in case of failure of the engine driven pump, but
the emergency procedures still called for turning the Facet pump on in case
of engine driven pump failure. There was considerable speculation about
whether there would be enough power from the engine to keep the airplane
airborne with the engine driven pump inoperative and only the Facet pump
providing fuel flow. Conducting such a test while airborne would be a little
tricky since it would require failing the engine driven pump in some manner,
but still allowing the Facet pump provided fuel to flow through the engine
driven pump housing to get to the engine.
The electrically driven fuel pump in that airplane has evolved through
several iterations and is now a two stage Dukes turbine pump.
It is pretty important for a pilot to understand his fuel "boost pump"
operation. Some fuel boost pumps are turned on as a matter of procedure
during all take offs and landings as a precautionary measure in case the
engine driven pump should fail. Other fuel boost pumps must not be turned on
while airborne while the engine driven fuel pump is operating normally
because the added flow from the boost pump can drown the engine and result
in insufficient power for flight.
OC
**PS: For example the engine driven fuel pump for a fuel injected Lycoming
engine puts out a higher pressure than the engine driven fuel pump for that
same engine if it is equipped with a carburetor.
PPS: The A-7 aircraft had a complicated fuel transfer system that routed
excess fuel pumped by the engine driven pump through the fuel tanks in
shaped nozzles that created motive fuel flow for transfer purposes. I think
that we lost a few of those planes because of fuel management problems until
pilots learned of the gotchas created by that system.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
Been a while since I had looked at it Bob, so I dug the publication from its
hiding place. It is actually the Service Manual rather than the handbook
that comes with the radio, so it may not be applicable to it, unless the
schematic is repeated there. I no longer have my copy of the material that
was packaged with a radio.
Error is in schematic 5-1 and concerns the memory channel and frequency
exchange switching. As drawn, it calls out a 2 position rocker switch or
similar, with one position offering normally closed contact, the other
normally open. Correct switching actually requires a spring-loaded rocker or
separate momentary push switches, in other words both contacts normally
open, with switching action grounding the required position momentarily.
I reported this finding to Icom Australia and received a printed correction
slip immediately, indicating that it was a known fault. That was some 7-8
years ago so no doubt it has long been corrected in later reprints and as I
said, it may not occur in the documentation that ships with the radio
anyway.
I should have added to my previous post the obvious suggestion of using a
relay to achieve the required intercom/comms function. That is certainly
easier than trying to install a new PTT swithch with considerable wiring
hanging from it.
Bill- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help!
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>I've done several instalations too but never 2 A200s together. I dont
>>doubt
>>it can be done simply with switching but cant really see the usefulness.
>>
>>The schematic in the handbook isn't of much use and mine contains an error
>>anyway. As for installing a single A200, I dont support the use of a
>>toggle
>>switch.
>
> What is the error you've identified?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
>
>
>Been a while since I had looked at it Bob, so I dug the publication from its
>hiding place. It is actually the Service Manual rather than the handbook
>that comes with the radio, so it may not be applicable to it, unless the
>schematic is repeated there. I no longer have my copy of the material that
>was packaged with a radio.
>
>Error is in schematic 5-1 and concerns the memory channel and frequency
>exchange switching. As drawn, it calls out a 2 position rocker switch or
>similar, with one position offering normally closed contact, the other
>normally open. Correct switching actually requires a spring-loaded rocker or
>separate momentary push switches, in other words both contacts normally
>open, with switching action grounding the required position momentarily.
>
>I reported this finding to Icom Australia and received a printed correction
>slip immediately, indicating that it was a known fault. That was some 7-8
>years ago so no doubt it has long been corrected in later reprints and as I
>said, it may not occur in the documentation that ships with the radio
>anyway.
>
>I should have added to my previous post the obvious suggestion of using a
>relay to achieve the required intercom/comms function. That is certainly
>easier than trying to install a new PTT swithch with considerable wiring
>hanging from it.
A real service manual! I'd love to get a copy.
The latest wiring on the ICOM website shows two normally
open, pull-downs to ground for those two functions.
I needed a break from some other things I was supposed to be
doing today and threw a little drawing package together. It's
posted at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/IC-A200_Icom_Installation_Wiring.pdf
If folks would care to review it and ask any questions that are not
answered, suggest additional materials be added or have spotted errors,
I'd be delighted to get he feedback. I've already found a goof. I'd
intended
to show how to "dummy load" the speaker output with an inset on page
2. I also note that the real model number is IC-A200 which ought to be
fixed in several places.
Dee and I are off to dinner with some old friends who used to work with
us at Videmation when I was rummaging around in train wrecks instead
of building airplanes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | High temperature epoxy for ungrounded thermocouple |
probe
Listers:
I have a Jabiru 3300 6 cylinder engine that uses spark plugs with a thread diameter
of 0.645 inches. I wish to use ring terminals of 3/8 inch diameter drilled
out to 15/32=3D0.4688 inches. (Using a Unibit will allow a clean cut.) This
will center the probe more accurately than some commercial probes, and it allows
me to make my thermocouples using type J wire that I bought from Omega.
I don't want any splices, and will custom fit each wire, with an appropriate
service loop.
My question is this. I wish to insulate the 1/4 inch or less soldered end of the
thermocouple. Should I use a bit of tefzel insulation, or plumbing Teflon
tape? Is there a thin ceramic that is used that I never heard of? The main question
is what sort of potting compound to use. I haven't researched high temperature
epoxy yet, and would appreciate any suggestions. I am using a thermocouple
amplifier, and a grounded thermocouple will not work well at all.
Jim Foerster, J400, wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Totten <john(at)totten.com> |
| Subject: | Crimp or Solder ? |
Can anyone tell me the standard for aircraft wiring - Crimp
or Solder?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
It wasn't obvious to me at first but the dimmer connection actually
feeds the incandescent panel lighting so it might make sense to feed
that pin from an instrument light dimmer if convenient.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Been a while since I had looked at it Bob, so I dug the publication from its
>>hiding place. It is actually the Service Manual rather than the handbook
>>that comes with the radio, so it may not be applicable to it, unless the
>>schematic is repeated there. I no longer have my copy of the material that
>>was packaged with a radio.
>>
>>Error is in schematic 5-1 and concerns the memory channel and frequency
>>exchange switching. As drawn, it calls out a 2 position rocker switch or
>>similar, with one position offering normally closed contact, the other
>>normally open. Correct switching actually requires a spring-loaded rocker or
>>separate momentary push switches, in other words both contacts normally
>>open, with switching action grounding the required position momentarily.
>>
>>I reported this finding to Icom Australia and received a printed correction
>>slip immediately, indicating that it was a known fault. That was some 7-8
>>years ago so no doubt it has long been corrected in later reprints and as I
>>said, it may not occur in the documentation that ships with the radio
>>anyway.
>>
>>I should have added to my previous post the obvious suggestion of using a
>>relay to achieve the required intercom/comms function. That is certainly
>>easier than trying to install a new PTT swithch with considerable wiring
>>hanging from it.
>>
>>
>
> A real service manual! I'd love to get a copy.
>
> The latest wiring on the ICOM website shows two normally
> open, pull-downs to ground for those two functions.
>
> I needed a break from some other things I was supposed to be
> doing today and threw a little drawing package together. It's
> posted at
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/IC-A200_Icom_Installation_Wiring.pdf
>
> If folks would care to review it and ask any questions that are not
> answered, suggest additional materials be added or have spotted errors,
> I'd be delighted to get he feedback. I've already found a goof. I'd
>intended
> to show how to "dummy load" the speaker output with an inset on page
> 2. I also note that the real model number is IC-A200 which ought to be
> fixed in several places.
>
> Dee and I are off to dinner with some old friends who used to work with
> us at Videmation when I was rummaging around in train wrecks instead
> of building airplanes.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Routing thermocouple wires |
Bob, or anyone:
Is it reasonable to route thermocouple wires along the spark plug wires? I will
be using a thermocouple amplifier with a + and - 15 volt supply. The spec sheet
for the AD596AH says to limit common mode input voltages to less than the
power supply band. One side of the thermocouple is connected to the power supply
common, and I will be using insulated probes to avoid the problem of multiple
ground paths and associated voltage offsets. The probe in a ring terminal
under the spark plug-see my prior post about this. Neither the spark plug wires
nor the thermocouple wire is shielded. Since one side of the thermocouple
is grounded to power common, the driving impedance of this source should only
be the resistance of the wire itself, which has a resistance of less than 3
ohms. On the Jabiru interest group on Yahoo, one person has run the TC wire
with the spark without problem. For design reasons which involve separate "ram
air" ducts over each bank of cylinders, routing with the spark plugs would be
the easiest. Anyone see a problem with this?
Jim Foerster, J400, wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com> |
| Subject: | Bosch Ice cube relay |
I have looked at the schematics on the search for these but could not
understand which pin on the relay is which, also tried to find it on the web
to no avail. There are 5 pins on it. #s 30, 85,86,87,87a. I want to use
this type of relay to control my flaps, reflexor, ailerons, they all will
have a motor that reverses if you change the pos and neg terminals. Sorry
for being so electronically dump.
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Crimp or Solder ? |
As long as you use a good crimper (sheesh volumes have been written about
that on this list), a "gas tight" crimp is as good as a solder and in some
ways better.
Less time consuming and wont wick solder farther into the wire than is need
leaving an area for the wire to break from vibration.
My vote, crimp and never look back, but use a *good* crimper and die set
made for the task
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Totten
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 8:47 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Crimp or Solder ?
Can anyone tell me the standard for aircraft wiring - Crimp or Solder?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AI Nut <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Routing thermocouple wires |
James, let me strongly suggest you do not run tc wire alongside the
spark plug wire. With the large voltages carried in the plug wire, if
there is ever the slightest short, you AD chips are toast, along with
possibly whatever you're reading them with.
Secondly, you need to run a separate ground for each tc all the way to
the AD chips, not use a common ground. Talk to the AD engineers if this
is questionable to you. Yeah, I know I just doubled your firewall
penetration wires, but it has to be done. I didn't like it either 8-).
David M.
James Foerster wrote:
>
> Bob, or anyone:
>
> Is it reasonable to route thermocouple wires along the spark plug wires? I will
be using a thermocouple amplifier with a + and - 15 volt supply. The spec
sheet for the AD596AH says to limit common mode input voltages to less than the
power supply band. One side of the thermocouple is connected to the power
supply common, and I will be using insulated probes to avoid the problem of multiple
ground paths and associated voltage offsets. The probe in a ring terminal
under the spark plug-see my prior post about this. Neither the spark plug
wires nor the thermocouple wire is shielded. Since one side of the thermocouple
is grounded to power common, the driving impedance of this source should only
be the resistance of the wire itself, which has a resistance of less than
3 ohms. On the Jabiru interest group on Yahoo, one person has run the TC wire
with the spark without problem. For design reasons which involve separate "ram
air" ducts over each bank of cylinders, routing
wi!
> th the spark plugs would be the easiest. Anyone see a problem with this?
>
> Jim Foerster, J400, wiring
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
I was an Icom dealer at the time I got my service Manual but I suggest that
you contact Icom US and ask for a copy. I suspect they will know who you
are and of your influence in our movement. If not, they would be well
advised to find out!
I'll take a look at your drawing after I clear this email backlog.
cheers
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help!
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Been a while since I had looked at it Bob, so I dug the publication from
>>its
>>hiding place. It is actually the Service Manual rather than the handbook
>>that comes with the radio, so it may not be applicable to it, unless the
>>schematic is repeated there. I no longer have my copy of the material
>>that
>>was packaged with a radio.
>>
>>Error is in schematic 5-1 and concerns the memory channel and frequency
>>exchange switching. As drawn, it calls out a 2 position rocker switch or
>>similar, with one position offering normally closed contact, the other
>>normally open. Correct switching actually requires a spring-loaded rocker
>>or
>>separate momentary push switches, in other words both contacts normally
>>open, with switching action grounding the required position momentarily.
>>
>>I reported this finding to Icom Australia and received a printed
>>correction
>>slip immediately, indicating that it was a known fault. That was some 7-8
>>years ago so no doubt it has long been corrected in later reprints and as
>>I
>>said, it may not occur in the documentation that ships with the radio
>>anyway.
>>
>>I should have added to my previous post the obvious suggestion of using a
>>relay to achieve the required intercom/comms function. That is certainly
>>easier than trying to install a new PTT swithch with considerable wiring
>>hanging from it.
>
> A real service manual! I'd love to get a copy.
>
> The latest wiring on the ICOM website shows two normally
> open, pull-downs to ground for those two functions.
>
> I needed a break from some other things I was supposed to be
> doing today and threw a little drawing package together. It's
> posted at
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/IC-A200_Icom_Installation_Wiring.pdf
>
> If folks would care to review it and ask any questions that are not
> answered, suggest additional materials be added or have spotted errors,
> I'd be delighted to get he feedback. I've already found a goof. I'd
> intended
> to show how to "dummy load" the speaker output with an inset on page
> 2. I also note that the real model number is IC-A200 which ought to be
> fixed in several places.
>
> Dee and I are off to dinner with some old friends who used to work with
> us at Videmation when I was rummaging around in train wrecks instead
> of building airplanes.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
Yes Ken, although I have never had the need to do so as none of my
installations were in Night VFR or IFR aircraft. I usually wired that pin
pair to the 13.8 voltt supply to provide an additional indication that the
radio was powered up.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help!
>
> It wasn't obvious to me at first but the dimmer connection actually
> feeds the incandescent panel lighting so it might make sense to feed
> that pin from an instrument light dimmer if convenient.
> Ken
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Been a while since I had looked at it Bob, so I dug the publication from
>>>its
>>>hiding place. It is actually the Service Manual rather than the handbook
>>>that comes with the radio, so it may not be applicable to it, unless the
>>>schematic is repeated there. I no longer have my copy of the material
>>>that
>>>was packaged with a radio.
>>>
>>>Error is in schematic 5-1 and concerns the memory channel and frequency
>>>exchange switching. As drawn, it calls out a 2 position rocker switch or
>>>similar, with one position offering normally closed contact, the other
>>>normally open. Correct switching actually requires a spring-loaded rocker
>>>or
>>>separate momentary push switches, in other words both contacts normally
>>>open, with switching action grounding the required position momentarily.
>>>
>>>I reported this finding to Icom Australia and received a printed
>>>correction
>>>slip immediately, indicating that it was a known fault. That was some
>>>7-8
>>>years ago so no doubt it has long been corrected in later reprints and as
>>>I
>>>said, it may not occur in the documentation that ships with the radio
>>>anyway.
>>>
>>>I should have added to my previous post the obvious suggestion of using a
>>>relay to achieve the required intercom/comms function. That is certainly
>>>easier than trying to install a new PTT swithch with considerable wiring
>>>hanging from it.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> A real service manual! I'd love to get a copy.
>>
>> The latest wiring on the ICOM website shows two normally
>> open, pull-downs to ground for those two functions.
>>
>> I needed a break from some other things I was supposed to be
>> doing today and threw a little drawing package together. It's
>> posted at
>>
>>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/IC-A200_Icom_Installation_Wiring.pdf
>>
>> If folks would care to review it and ask any questions that are not
>> answered, suggest additional materials be added or have spotted
>> errors,
>> I'd be delighted to get he feedback. I've already found a goof. I'd
>>intended
>> to show how to "dummy load" the speaker output with an inset on page
>> 2. I also note that the real model number is IC-A200 which ought to be
>> fixed in several places.
>>
>> Dee and I are off to dinner with some old friends who used to work
>> with
>> us at Videmation when I was rummaging around in train wrecks instead
>> of building airplanes.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rlnelson5" <rlnelson-5(at)peoplepc.com> |
Hello
Redoing my lower dash panel.
1 I have a Whalen strobe powerpack that can handle either 1,2,3 or 4 strobes.
It is 14v 7a unit . I have 2 wingtip , 1 tail and 1 red strobe/ beacon.
My question is if I could use a [ 2-10 ?] switch to control this strobe power
unit and have the red beacon turn on the middle switch position and then add
the other 3 strobes at the top switch position?
If that would not do it is there some other arrangment to do it?
2 I have the B + C instrament lighting dimmer setup .
I have Inst. lights, couple of post lights Radio lights ,Lower dash panel lights
, and 2 over the shoulder lights. I have a cabin ovhd light as well.
I am using Fiber light units on most instraments and on the lower dash. The lower
dash units are a long fiber optic strip that has lettering on them to label
the lower dash panel items.
How should I handle this whole setup?
I only have one dimmer pot .
Do I need some type of rotary switch?
Regular switches or wire the ovhd to a seperate switch? ? wire them all together?
Any ideas would be helfull
thanks l
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11546#11546
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net> |
"The lower dash units are a long fiber optic strip that has lettering on
them to label the lower dash panel items."
Do you have a picture of this? Manufacturer?
Bret Smith
RV-9A (91314)
Mineral Bluff, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rlnelson5
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 12:05 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring issues
-->
Hello
Redoing my lower dash panel.
1 I have a Whalen strobe powerpack that can handle either 1,2,3 or 4
strobes. It is 14v 7a unit . I have 2 wingtip , 1 tail and 1 red strobe/
beacon.
My question is if I could use a [ 2-10 ?] switch to control this strobe
power unit and have the red beacon turn on the middle switch position and
then add the other 3 strobes at the top switch position?
If that would not do it is there some other arrangment to do it?
2 I have the B + C instrament lighting dimmer setup .
I have Inst. lights, couple of post lights Radio lights ,Lower dash panel
lights , and 2 over the shoulder lights. I have a cabin ovhd light as well.
I am using Fiber light units on most instraments and on the lower dash.
The lower dash units are a long fiber optic strip that has lettering on
them to label the lower dash panel items.
How should I handle this whole setup?
I only have one dimmer pot .
Do I need some type of rotary switch?
Regular switches or wire the ovhd to a seperate switch? ? wire them all
together?
Any ideas would be helfull
thanks l
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11546#11546
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring issues |
| From: | "rlnelson5" <rlnelson-5(at)peoplepc.com> |
Sure , look in the Aircraft Spruce catalog. Made by Fiberlite. I have the 2004-5
version , on page 423 . It is called Illuminated Labeling
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11553#11553
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net> |
The problem of the ELT anntenna in a wood and fabric plane, or a composite one,
is discussed in Jim Weir's RST anntenna book. He suggests two dipoles, driven
by the same coax, and that is what I plan to do. The ground plane is best suited
for an aluminum plane. The configuration looks like the letter X with one
pair of legs about 1/3 of the other. I don't recall the exact dimenions, something
on the order of 7 inches and 21 inches. Jim Weir suggests copper tape,
but I prefer 0.032 or 0.016 thick brass as being much easier to handle and
solder. This is available in the hardware store in widths of 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and
1 inch. Best to tune this with an antenna analyser, of course.
Jim Foerster, J400, wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
>
>It wasn't obvious to me at first but the dimmer connection actually
>feeds the incandescent panel lighting so it might make sense to feed
>that pin from an instrument light dimmer if convenient.
>Ken
From what I understand about the dimmer from the instructions,
it's a bright/dim discrete. In other words, lighting goes to half
bright when a voltage is applied to the dimmer pin. Does anyone
have better data than that?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
I thought that too until I powered it up and then opened the case to
check the light bulbs. My unit was purchased last April but I doubt that
there is more than one version of lighting. Not the greatest instructions.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>It wasn't obvious to me at first but the dimmer connection actually
>>feeds the incandescent panel lighting so it might make sense to feed
>>that pin from an instrument light dimmer if convenient.
>>Ken
>>
>>
>
> From what I understand about the dimmer from the instructions,
> it's a bright/dim discrete. In other words, lighting goes to half
> bright when a voltage is applied to the dimmer pin. Does anyone
> have better data than that?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John D. Heath" <altoq(at)cebridge.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bosch Ice cube relay |
Ron,
No, 85 and 86 are the contacts that actuate the relay, 30, 87, and 87a are
all the switch. 87a is normaly closed to 30. When voltage (12VDC) is
applied accross 85 and 86, 87a and 30 open and 87 closes to 30. Don,t try
to say that too fast. :~p For what you want to do you need two relays.
John D.
---- Original Message -----
From: "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bosch Ice cube relay
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com> |
| Subject: | Bosch Ice cube relay |
Thanks all for the replies, I will try that today. I did buy 6 of the
relays.
Ron T
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John D.
Heath
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bosch Ice cube relay
Ron,
No, 85 and 86 are the contacts that actuate the relay, 30, 87, and 87a are
all the switch. 87a is normaly closed to 30. When voltage (12VDC) is
applied accross 85 and 86, 87a and 30 open and 87 closes to 30. Don,t try
to say that too fast. :~p For what you want to do you need two relays.
John D.
---- Original Message -----
From: "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bosch Ice cube relay
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bosch Ice cube relay |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Ron -
I have a schematic for running the flap motor of our Lancair ES. It is a
reversing scheme using two relays. It is in .pdf format. Let me know if
you want it and I'll email it to you.
Cheers,
John.
>
>
> Ron,
>
> No, 85 and 86 are the contacts that actuate the relay, 30, 87, and 87a
> are
> all the switch. 87a is normaly closed to 30. When voltage (12VDC) is
> applied accross 85 and 86, 87a and 30 open and 87 closes to 30. Don,t
> try
> to say that too fast. :~p For what you want to do you need two relays.
>
> John D.
>
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:16 PM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bosch Ice cube relay
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com> |
| Subject: | Bosch Ice cube relay |
John, thanks for being so patient with me, I tried it that way on the bench
and it works just like you said.
Ron T
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John D.
Heath
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bosch Ice cube relay
Ron,
No, 85 and 86 are the contacts that actuate the relay, 30, 87, and 87a are
all the switch. 87a is normaly closed to 30. When voltage (12VDC) is
applied accross 85 and 86, 87a and 30 open and 87 closes to 30. Don,t try
to say that too fast. :~p For what you want to do you need two relays.
John D.
---- Original Message -----
From: "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bosch Ice cube relay
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lee Logan <leeloganster(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 02/10/06 |
I carry my cell phone with me (Blackberry) on all flights. Assuming you're
not incapacitated, seems to me that is a pretty good backup given it has
voice, text, email, and internet capability all in one. Do you suppose my
US coverage would be typically sufficient for this to be a reasonable
addition to the rescue arsenal or is national coverage inadequate? I have a
fair number of "blank spots" around here, but I live in rural SC. My
Blackberry works fine on overseas trips but not everywhere in the US. Go
figure. Are others relying on their cell phones? If 12% effectiveness is
an accurate figure for ELT's, I think my Blackberry beats that hands down,
warts and all.
ELT's were mandated before the widespread availability of cell phones,
right? Why don't we petition the FAA (through the EAA?) for relief from the
ELT requirement as long as you carry an operative cell phone on your person?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Icom A200-Help! (two radios, internal intercom |
and pin-out detail)
http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icoma20035xz.jpg
Here is my pin out explanation of the ICOM A200. The second diagram shows the
installation wiring if you utilize the internal intercom.
http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blockicoma5sy.jpg
This is my idea for wiring in two ICOM A200 with out audio panel. The first uses
a $9.00 audio mixer and a few toggles to select audio. The second is easy,
with just feeding the "B" radio thru the "A" radio, but requires you to use the
volume controls to select which radio audio to listen to.
George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 02/10/06 |
"Assuming you're not incapacitated..."
That's an awfully broad assumption, but it doesn't apply to an ELT.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lee
Logan
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 11:05 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs -
02/10/06
I carry my cell phone with me (Blackberry) on all flights. Assuming you're
not incapacitated, seems to me that is a pretty good backup given it has
voice, text, email, and internet capability all in one. Do you suppose my
US coverage would be typically sufficient for this to be a reasonable
addition to the rescue arsenal or is national coverage inadequate? I have a
fair number of "blank spots" around here, but I live in rural SC. My
Blackberry works fine on overseas trips but not everywhere in the US. Go
figure. Are others relying on their cell phones? If 12% effectiveness is
an accurate figure for ELT's, I think my Blackberry beats that hands down,
warts and all.
ELT's were mandated before the widespread availability of cell phones,
right? Why don't we petition the FAA (through the EAA?) for relief from the
ELT requirement as long as you carry an operative cell phone on your person?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 02/10/06 |
We just had a recent incident where carrying a cell phone saved the day.
A pilot just got an Arrow out of maintenance and was flying back to our
field.
On calling in he noted that he had no comm's and little or no battery or
charge.
He also could not get 3 lights on his gear down. He flew over the field
several times and used his cell phone to call the FBO phone to explain his
problem. The FBO had a guy standing next to the strip to monitor his gear
extension. It looked like the main gear was down but, the nose was not.
Between the two and making multiple slow passes over the field he was able
to shake the nose gear down and via the cell phone figures he had the best
info that he was going to get. Luckily, the Piper gear is a gravity down
gear.
He probably made the most perfect greased landing and held the nose gear off
as long as possible. Then, did something that I thought was pretty smart.
He coasted to a full stop and made the most gently of taxi turns just in
case one of the mains was not really over center and locked. It would be
pretty bad to make a perfect landing and then, taxi turn too abrupt and
collapse a main gear from sideloads.
All done with the help of a cell phone.
D
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 9:05 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 02/10/06
>
>
> I carry my cell phone with me (Blackberry) on all flights. Assuming
> you're
> not incapacitated, seems to me that is a pretty good backup given it has
> voice, text, email, and internet capability all in one. Do you suppose my
> US coverage would be typically sufficient for this to be a reasonable
> addition to the rescue arsenal or is national coverage inadequate? I have
> a
> fair number of "blank spots" around here, but I live in rural SC. My
> Blackberry works fine on overseas trips but not everywhere in the US. Go
> figure. Are others relying on their cell phones? If 12% effectiveness is
> an accurate figure for ELT's, I think my Blackberry beats that hands down,
> warts and all.
>
> ELT's were mandated before the widespread availability of cell phones,
> right? Why don't we petition the FAA (through the EAA?) for relief from
> the
> ELT requirement as long as you carry an operative cell phone on your
> person?
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 02/10/06 |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Lee -
You make this implicit assumption on which to base an argument to change
the FAA's mind: "I am conscious and able to turn on my blackberry or cell
phone, and to connect and to describe my location ... ". If you are not
capable of the above and need rescue to stay alive, or your family needs
your body for closure, the whole process needs to be automatic and more
accurate. That's the answer the FAA will send back. Now, how to do what
they want in a way that will be far more reliable than the method mandated
now, and will not break our banks, is the problem at hand. There is a much
better solution, but it costs a lot more and so far, a lot of folks have
rejected it because of cost.
John Schroeder
wrote:
> ELT's were mandated before the widespread availability of cell phones,
> right? Why don't we petition the FAA (through the EAA?) for relief from
> the ELT requirement as long as you carry an operative cell phone on your
> person?
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Icom A200-Help! (Bobs diagram errata, ICOM |
corrections)
Bob, very nice diagrams, much nicer than mine. Two comments.....
"I'd intended to show how to "dummy load" the speaker
output with an inset on page 2."
Regarding comment about speaker dummy load - I called ICOM and
they told me emphatically that it was not necessary to connect
anything to the speaker load, so your diagram is correct. Other than
that I think we had similar ideas.
The second item is the internal back light. You show it connect to the
nav lights as ON and OFF deal. It does seem like this from the
text, like it is a ON/half/OFF deal from the text. Again a call to ICOM
says back lighting is affected by voltage. In other words light intensity
is variable and proportional when connected to a variable voltage.
ICOM errata:
The previous post that ICOM shows the incorrect optional
switches for the Yoke mounted channel and frequency exchange
switches, I believe they have corrected it. They show spring
loaded DTSP toggle, normally in center open position and
momentary to ground pin L or 12. The optional switch choice is
two single momentary SPST switches to ground.
George
----------------------
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help!
III"
A real service manual! I'd love to get a copy.
The latest wiring on the ICOM website shows two normally
open, pull-downs to ground for those two functions.
I needed a break from some other things I was supposed to
be
doing today and threw a little drawing package together. It's
posted at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/IC-A200_Icom_Installation_Wiring.pdf
If folks would care to review it and ask any questions that
are not
answered, suggest additional materials be added or have
spotted
errors, I'd be delighted to get he feedback. I've already found a
goof. I'd intended to show how to "dummy load" the speaker
output with an inset on page 2. I also note that the real model
number is IC-A200 which ought to be fixed in several places.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 02/10/06 |
As macabre as it may sound, they need to be able to find the bodies.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee Logan
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 12:05 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 02/10/06
I carry my cell phone with me (Blackberry) on all flights. Assuming you're
not incapacitated, seems to me that is a pretty good backup given it has
voice, text, email, and internet capability all in one. Do you suppose my
US coverage would be typically sufficient for this to be a reasonable
addition to the rescue arsenal or is national coverage inadequate? I have a
fair number of "blank spots" around here, but I live in rural SC. My
Blackberry works fine on overseas trips but not everywhere in the US. Go
figure. Are others relying on their cell phones? If 12% effectiveness is
an accurate figure for ELT's, I think my Blackberry beats that hands down,
warts and all.
ELT's were mandated before the widespread availability of cell phones,
right? Why don't we petition the FAA (through the EAA?) for relief from the
ELT requirement as long as you carry an operative cell phone on your person?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Lehman" <lehmans(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
>
>It wasn't obvious to me at first but the dimmer connection actually
>feeds the incandescent panel lighting so it might make sense to feed
>that pin from an instrument light dimmer if convenient.
>Ken
From what I understand about the dimmer from the instructions,
it's a bright/dim discrete. In other words, lighting goes to half
bright when a voltage is applied to the dimmer pin. Does anyone
have better data than that?
Bob . . .
My experience with 2 Icom A200 installs (one TSO'd and one non-TSO'd) is
that the radio lighting will dim with the instrument panel light rheostat
control. It never occurred to me to connect it any other way.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | King KT - 76 Transponder "Reply" light question.... |
My KT-76TSO transponder reply light has always been too dim.
This reply indicator is controlled by a light sensor resistance device.
Is there a way to adjust its sensitivity...???
The transponder is center stack mounted and near the bottom. I believe that it
is interpreting that it is evening or night and lowers the illumination. I can
shine a flash light into the photo sensor and get a much brighter reply indicator.
I don't want to yank it out without someone telling me where to look for the adjustment.
Thanks,
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steven DiNieri" <capsteve(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Bosch Ice cube relay |
Here's a neat little pdf that shows some cool relay setups. The reverse pole
stuff that would pertain to a reversing motor is on the last two pages..
Steve dinieri
http://www.tune-town.com/relays.pdf
I have looked at the schematics on the search for these but could not
understand which pin on the relay is which, also tried to find it on the web
to no avail. There are 5 pins on it. #s 30, 85,86,87,87a. I want to use
this type of relay to control my flaps, reflexor, ailerons, they all will
have a motor that reverses if you change the pos and neg terminals. Sorry
for being so electronically dump.
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob, very nice diagrams, much nicer than mine. Two comments.....
>
> "I'd intended to show how to "dummy load" the speaker
>output with an inset on page 2."
>
>Regarding comment about speaker dummy load - I called ICOM and
>they told me emphatically that it was not necessary to connect
>anything to the speaker load, so your diagram is correct. Other than
>that I think we had similar ideas.
Very good. I've deleted that feature from Note 3.
>
>The second item is the internal back light. You show it connect to the
>nav lights as ON and OFF deal. It does seem like this from the
>text, like it is a ON/half/OFF deal from the text. Again a call to ICOM
>says back lighting is affected by voltage. In other words light intensity
>is variable and proportional when connected to a variable voltage.
Hmmmm . . . it would be nice then if they'd included the
the current draw of this lead for allowing one to size
their dimmer requirements. If you or anyone else can
provide a full-bright dimmer lead load value, I'd
be pleased to add it to the drawings.
>
>
> ICOM errata:
>The previous post that ICOM shows the incorrect optional
>switches for the Yoke mounted channel and frequency exchange
>switches, I believe they have corrected it. They show spring
>loaded DTSP toggle, normally in center open position and
>momentary to ground pin L or 12. The optional switch choice is
>two single momentary SPST switches to ground.
Yeah, the ICOM data I found seemed to have the wiring
right. I just showed the spring-loaded-center-off version.
I'll hold off posting Rev -B- with hopes that someone can
get a dimmer load current value.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mchristian(at)canetics.com |
I have the TCM IO240-B3B in my Shekari. I have tried three fuel pumps and finally
am ending up with the facet 40107. The reason I have tried three pumps was
due to lack of sufficient information regarding the Fuel Injection sytem design
and fuel requirements of the engine. I learned by trial and error with a little
help: an electric pump putting out 3psi and 30gph wouldn't make any pressure
at the fuel distributor (too much pressure loss in the system). I then
tried a FI pump putting out 45psi and 45gph (thinking I could possible regulate
it down); this overpowered my gascolator which had to be replaced. Too much
pressure and flow caused priming issues and would result in difficulty running
the engine on the pump due to overrich conditions - based on the metering.
This could have been rectified with a bypass type regulator, but I didn't want
to add complexity to the fuel system. I ended up checking all facet pump types
and settled on the 40107 because: no check or anti
-siphon valves, 7-10psi and 30gph. I prime for three second at 3psi showing on
the fuel distributor. The engine starts right up. Not sure how it works at
keeping the engine running (I suspect insufficient pressure).
I think the reason Diamond went to the Dukes was because there were some early
issues with mechnaical fuel pumps on these engines. They had a priming solution
with teh Facets but no backup for sustaining flight. They found a solution
in the Dukes that can perform both.
Reagrds,
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chaztuna(at)adelphia.net |
| Subject: | Bosch Ice cube relay |
Cc: Ron
Ron
Where did you buy them. Waytek Wire has great prices on Genuine Bosch "ice cube"
relays (and the mounting sockets for them). See
http://order.waytekwire.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L0A298B332B9408002F3F051+M37+ENG
Charlie Kuss
---- Ron wrote:
>
> Thanks all for the replies, I will try that today. I did buy 6 of the
> relays.
>
> Ron T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John D.
> Heath
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 6:19 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bosch Ice cube relay
>
>
>
> Ron,
>
> No, 85 and 86 are the contacts that actuate the relay, 30, 87, and 87a are
> all the switch. 87a is normaly closed to 30. When voltage (12VDC) is
> applied accross 85 and 86, 87a and 30 open and 87 closes to 30. Don,t try
> to say that too fast. :~p For what you want to do you need two relays.
>
> John D.
>
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:16 PM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bosch Ice cube relay
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bosch Ice cube relay |
>
>I have looked at the schematics on the search for these but could not
>understand which pin on the relay is which, also tried to find it on the web
>to no avail. There are 5 pins on it. #s 30, 85,86,87,87a. I want to use
>this type of relay to control my flaps, reflexor, ailerons, they all will
>have a motor that reverses if you change the pos and neg terminals. Sorry
>for being so electronically dump.
>
>http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html
See drawings in the package at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps.pdf
Sheet 3 or 4 is probably what you want.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 02/10/06 |
Lee Logan wrote:
>
> I carry my cell phone with me (Blackberry) on all flights. Assuming you're
> not incapacitated, seems to me that is a pretty good backup given it has
> voice, text, email, and internet capability all in one. Do you suppose my
> US coverage would be typically sufficient for this to be a reasonable
> addition to the rescue arsenal or is national coverage inadequate?
All of our cellular telephone technology (and in this I include PCS, 3G,
and EvDO) is based on relatively short-range radio technology. There has
to be a "cell tower" within about three miles to ensure service. If you
land where there is a cell tower within three miles you are already
where people are. If you land somewhere where you really need service
because there is no one around, you won't have cellular service.
No, you can't count on cellular service as a back-up. A hand-held
satellite phone is another story.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Crimp or Solder ? |
>
>
>Can anyone tell me the standard for aircraft wiring - Crimp
>or Solder?
See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Crimp_vs_Solder_and_other_nagging_questions.pdf
for an updated article on this and other issues.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
Bob...
I'm not 1,000% sure of this but it seems like I read somewhere that the
actual current for the lighting comes from the +14 power lead, and the
voltage fed to the "dimmer" pin is just a small control voltage, with very
little current draw.
Again, not 1,000% sure on this...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:33 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: A200-Help
>
>Bob, very nice diagrams, much nicer than mine. Two comments.....
>
> "I'd intended to show how to "dummy load" the speaker
>output with an inset on page 2."
>
>Regarding comment about speaker dummy load - I called ICOM and
>they told me emphatically that it was not necessary to connect
>anything to the speaker load, so your diagram is correct. Other than
>that I think we had similar ideas.
Very good. I've deleted that feature from Note 3.
>
>The second item is the internal back light. You show it connect to the
>nav lights as ON and OFF deal. It does seem like this from the
>text, like it is a ON/half/OFF deal from the text. Again a call to ICOM
>says back lighting is affected by voltage. In other words light intensity
>is variable and proportional when connected to a variable voltage.
Hmmmm . . . it would be nice then if they'd included the
the current draw of this lead for allowing one to size
their dimmer requirements. If you or anyone else can
provide a full-bright dimmer lead load value, I'd
be pleased to add it to the drawings.
>
>
> ICOM errata:
>The previous post that ICOM shows the incorrect optional
>switches for the Yoke mounted channel and frequency exchange
>switches, I believe they have corrected it. They show spring
>loaded DTSP toggle, normally in center open position and
>momentary to ground pin L or 12. The optional switch choice is
>two single momentary SPST switches to ground.
Yeah, the ICOM data I found seemed to have the wiring
right. I just showed the spring-loaded-center-off version.
I'll hold off posting Rev -B- with hopes that someone can
get a dimmer load current value.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
That would be 300 mA at 13.8 volts.
I ended up with a 3 position toggle switch and a couple of resistors for
dim-off-bright on mine.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
snip
> I'll hold off posting Rev -B- with hopes that someone can
> get a dimmer load current value.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com> |
| Subject: | Bosch Ice cube relay |
Thanks Bob and all the rest, If I don't get it right after all the help you
guys gave me I better quit.
Ron Triano
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html
January 30, 2006 - February 12, 2006
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-fj