AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-fn
March 09, 2006 - March 21, 2006
Harley Dixon
Bill Dube wrote:
>
>We use trackballs on our airborne instruments. Other pointing devices
>are hard to use in turbulent air. Touch pads are nearly impossible to
>use in rough air.
>
>Here is a picture of the instrument that I built a couple of years ago
>on the NOAA WP3 Hurricane Hunter:
>http://www.al.noaa.gov/2004/photos/P3/13.jpg
>
>Notice the tiny track ball in the corner of the laptop tray. You "left
>click" by pulling the trigger button with your index finger. It is quite
>comfortable to work the ball with your thumb. Easy to use in rough air
>as your thumb moves with your hand and the whole mouse moves with your
>hand too.
>
>Here is a link to the exact "finger" trackball:
>http://www.sfcable.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MS4-USB
>I've seen them for sale at Walmart, but I couldn't find them on their
>website.
>
>I bet you could mount one on top of your control stick. (Be sure to buy
>a spare. They are not ultra high quality.) We held ours in place with
>Velcro. You can see how your hand could grip the stick while working the
>trackball by looking at the picture in the advertisement. Just photoshop
>a control stick in. :*)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>Harold wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>Re pointing device, How about a Logitech Track ball, USB plug one hand
>>operation.
>>Thumb moves the ball, index finger left click or wheel, and middle finger
>>right click .
>>I gave up on the notebook touch pad, and this goes where the notebook
>>goes...wouldn't be without it
>>Harold
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
both fabrication and software that would make the product
highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
when not illuminated.
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
| From: | "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle(at)austin.utexas.edu> |
Bob,
Running a liquid cooled rotary, I would add:
Coolant Temp,
Coolant Pres,
Coolant Low, and also
Oil Temp.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question
I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
both fabrication and software that would make the product
highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
when not illuminated.
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
I know that these functions are not as common on most airplanes, but I
have them and they could mean the difference. Speed Brakes, Ram Air
Open, Gear Pump On, (Continental Engines and the New ECI fuel system for
Lycomings - you don't want the pump left on in normal use - "Fuel Pump
On")
Food for thought, the Advanced Flight Systems AF-2500 has an intergraded
customizable electronic warning system with audio built into the engine
system package. Over the last three years I have worked with 30 plus
owners and all seem to like this type of system. This has prompted an
engineer friend of mine at Honeywell to come up with a LCD digital stand
alone annunciator system. If you would like I'll keep you posted on his
progress.
Mike
Lancair Legacy
TS-11
Kitfox
A-320
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 7:21 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question
I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
both fabrication and software that would make the product
highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
when not illuminated.
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
--
1/16/2006
--
1/16/2006
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
The wish list now stands at:
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Coolant Temp
Coolant Pres
Coolant Low
Oil Temp
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
--
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Bob -
I would add:
Boost Pump
Baggage Door
Ground Power
Starter Engaged
Crossfeed
wrote:
> Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
> Main Volts Lo
> Aux Volts Lo
> Left Fuel Lo
> Right Fuel Lo
> Oil Pres Lo
> Canopy Latch
> OAT Warn
> Pitot Heat
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
A couple of minor points, if I may...
Isn't there some sort of "recommended standard" for the colors to be used
for warning lights and annunciators? I thought I read something about this
recently, but I can't seem to find a link to the article.
Regarding the "dead front" design, let me mention a usability issue from the
computer field that might or might not be relevant in the aviation world:
Consider a computer program with two "screens". When you are on one screen,
you can both "Print" and "Save" data, and there are "buttons" at the top of
the screen that allow you to accomplish this. But on the second page, you
can only "Print" the data. Common sense would dictate that since you can't
save information on the second page, there would be no need to display a
"Save" button; only a "Print" button would be required.
But we determined that users preferred to also have a "Save" button on the
second page, even though it was disabled and non-functional. A consistent
button layout provided more usability than a design in which buttons
appeared and disappeared, which tended to confuse users.
Again, I don't know if this is relevant in the aircraft world, but it might
be worth considering.
One other point regarding the "dead front" design: What about the first-time
or occasional flyer of the airplane? How would they know which parameters
were annunciated, and which would need to be monitored via a gauge or other
indicator?
I assume good practice would dictate that all of the annunciator lights
would be illuminated when the battery master was turned on, then go dark
following engine start. While this would provide some indication of what
parameters would be annunciated, would the first-time or occasional pilot
remember what they were?
None of this may be of any importance whatsoever, but these are the sort of
questions I would want to see asked anytime anything was being designed...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question
I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
both fabrication and software that would make the product
highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
when not illuminated.
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
>
> Main Volts Lo
> Aux Volts Lo
> Left Fuel Lo
> Right Fuel Lo
> Oil Pres Lo
> Canopy Latch
> OAT Warn
> Pitot Heat
You know, I installed an OAT warning in my RV-4 to let me know when the
OAT dropped below 0C. It turned out to be a huge annoyance as it would
go off whether or not there was any chance for ice. And when there was a
chance of ice and temps below 0C, I already knew without the warning.
This tells me that an OAT warning is not particularly useful. Kind of
like an ELT: 100 false alarms for one useful alarm.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
>
> The wish list now stands at:
>
> Main Volts Lo
> Aux Volts Lo
> Left Fuel Lo
> Right Fuel Lo
> Oil Pres Lo
> Canopy Latch
> OAT Warn
> Pitot Heat
> Coolant Temp
> Coolant Pres
> Coolant Low
> Oil Temp
Bob, the most useful thing I had in my RV-4 was aural alerting. I had
the Audio Flight Avionics engine monitor. It was the most useful engine
and systems monitor I have ever used. The key was that all alerts were
in a pleasant female voice. I looked at the panel to manipulate engine
settings, e.g. MAP (throttel), RPM (prop), EGT (mixture), CHT, but I
didn't bother to display anything else full-time. (I could ask the unit
to display any parameter at any time.) The rest of the time I would rely
on the aural alerting.
I didn't need to look inside for anything having to do with operating
the airplane in VFR conditions. If there was a problem, it would tell me
with a message like:
"Warning, cylinder head temperature high" (lower the nose or reduce power),
"Warning, fuel pressure low" (oops, I forgot to switch tanks),
In an airplane with a fixed-pitch prop I might get, "Warning, engine RPM
high," while doing acro so I would know to retard the throttle.
So if you decide to build this, throw in the aural warning. Memory in
cheap in microprocessors these days so we record the warnings. Men can
have the sexy woman's voice and women can have the sexy guy's voice. ;-)
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Little <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
Bob: I've looked at this problem extensively in the past, and developed
several annunciator products, and have a few more on the drawing board.
In my opinion, no matter what you choose, someone will always require
something different than you make. If you end up being totally general
purpose, then you may wish to consider a color LCD screen as an
annunciator display.
This has it's drawbacks too-- many people like discrete lamps.
NKK makes some (very expensive) backlit LCD switches/displays. You can
display legends or messages on a small (about 1"x1") display, and have
the option of incorporating a mute/acknowledge switch built into the
display.
Of course, by the time you are done, this will cost more than some
electronic engine monitors... which are well positioned as annunciator
displays (given enough inputs).
I also looked at customization at build time... programming inputs and
legends. This is a very expensive (and error prone) process. If you
can make everything field programmable by the end user, it will be
easier and cheaper in the long term.
Finally, as you (unfortunately) know, the Experimental aircraft market
is too small to justify expensive custom tooling and software
development, so it's nice to piggy back on other markets (like
industrial control). Of course... you need entirely different input
and legend requirements.... oh well!
Good luck with this project, I hope they find the recipe for success.
Vern Little
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
> El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
> They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
> whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
> the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
> trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
>
> A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
> would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
> both fabrication and software that would make the product
> highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
> are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
> the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
> is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
> when not illuminated.
>
> Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
>
> Main Volts Lo
> Aux Volts Lo
> Left Fuel Lo
> Right Fuel Lo
> Oil Pres Lo
> Canopy Latch
> OAT Warn
> Pitot Heat
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Christian" <mchristian(at)canetics.com> |
| Subject: | Heads up on double sided adhesive |
One very strong adhesive tape we use is 3M VHB (for Very High Bond). It is
great for metal to metal bonding (and just about anything else). I was told
that it is used to bond wing skins to ribs in some aircraft applications.
It is very thin too...
www.3m.com/vhb
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit :
>
>I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
>El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
>They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
>whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
>the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
>trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
>
>A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
>would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
>both fabrication and software that would make the product
>highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
>are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
>the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
>is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
>when not illuminated.
>
>Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
>points of interest might be important enough to light a light
>and/or blow in your ear?
>
>Main Volts Lo
>Aux Volts Lo
>Left Fuel Lo
>Right Fuel Lo
>Oil Pres Lo
>Canopy Latch
>OAT Warn
>Pitot Heat
>
>
Hi Bob and all,
In our project, we have two Rotax specific lights :
Overboost (red)
Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow)
I also included
Boost pump ON (white)
Flaps down (white)
Coolant pressure would be great, too.
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
| From: | "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle(at)austin.utexas.edu> |
Bob,
This seems a good time to bring this up. My Chevy p/u has a cool little
"message center" that tells me that its time to change oil, or that the
cargo light is on, etc. It is about 1.5" square. I was wondering if it
would be possible to adapt this to experimental a/c use as a compact
annunciator? I don't have a clue as to how it works, but I thought that
it may be possible to get one from GM, or out of a wreck, and then
program a PIC to provide customized alerts for various things of
interest. It appears to use some sort of LED panel with yellow
lettering. So, does this sound plausible? Has anyone on the list done
this? Am I nuts?
Mark S.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:57 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated
Parameters List
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
The wish list now stands at:
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Coolant Temp
Coolant Pres
Coolant Low
Oil Temp
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
--
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
Bob ...
How about only one small LCD the size of single display light ... When a
warning is announced, it is displayed. If there's more than one warning the
LCD scrolls to display when the acknowledge button is pressed. The
ackowledge button would also change the color of the displyed item until
that item is dealt with. I think a simple aural tone would be enough to get
attention. The aural tone would end with pushing the acknowledge button.
This single display would fit all panels and be cheap to produce.
My 2 cents ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
How about a simple "Master ON" reminder?
Bret
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 9:56 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated
Parameters List
>
>
> Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
>
> The wish list now stands at:
>
> Main Volts Lo
> Aux Volts Lo
> Left Fuel Lo
> Right Fuel Lo
> Oil Pres Lo
> Canopy Latch
> OAT Warn
> Pitot Heat
> Coolant Temp
> Coolant Pres
> Coolant Low
> Oil Temp
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
> --
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
Sensors might be difficult, but the inputs I'd need most often are things like:
Tiedowns still tied; Pitot cover left on; Passenger exceeds allowable weight
or girth limits; canopy ajar; cowl plugs still in; bad wx decision; Center freq.
selected for air-air chit-chat; seafood cooler leakage.
On a serious note, how about a FWF fire annunciator?
-Bill B
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question
I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
both fabrication and software that would make the product
highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
when not illuminated.
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | KMA 24 connector |
Can anyone point me to a source for a KMA 24 audio panel connector and pins?
Thanks
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Coolie hat as pointing device |
Perhaps you could buy both the wired and wireless finger mice, then swap
the guts. This would give you the nifty case that would fit perfectly on
the top of the stick, but without having to deal with the wireless stuff
or battery replacement/substitution.
Bill Dube'
Harley wrote:
>
>Morning, Bill...
>
> >>Here is a link to the exact "finger" trackball:<<
>
>Now THAT'S a great little accessory! Can even use that here at the desktop!
>
>Did a little search, and found it is offered on several websites for as
>little as $11.95 and as much as $24.95 (its MSRP).
>
>Also found a couple of WIRELESS finger trackball (logitech makes one)
>for a bit more ($30-50)...that sounds like a possibility as well.
>
>Also found this unique little unit...a wireless, rechargeable, RF finger
>trackball! Not sure what's in the handle (probably batteries) but it
>sure looks like the control stick might fit up inside it (at least mine,
>which is still the plans called Long EZ version)...maybe replace the
>batteries with a hard wired modification with the wires through the
>stick? Make a neat looking control stick. Almost Thrustmaster style.
>
>www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=FDM-B4D-RF&cat=MOU&cpc=MAC
>
>Think I'll take a trip around the local stores this morning and see
>what's available here (we have ALL the big stores here in Henrietta
>within a mile or so of each other...Wal-Mart, Sam's, BJ's, Target, Best
>Buy, CompUSA, Circuit City, Radio Shack, Sears, Wegman's , etc, etc.)
>
>Harley Dixon
>
>
>Bill Dube wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>We use trackballs on our airborne instruments. Other pointing devices
>>are hard to use in turbulent air. Touch pads are nearly impossible to
>>use in rough air.
>>
>>Here is a picture of the instrument that I built a couple of years ago
>>on the NOAA WP3 Hurricane Hunter:
>>http://www.al.noaa.gov/2004/photos/P3/13.jpg
>>
>>Notice the tiny track ball in the corner of the laptop tray. You "left
>>click" by pulling the trigger button with your index finger. It is quite
>>comfortable to work the ball with your thumb. Easy to use in rough air
>>as your thumb moves with your hand and the whole mouse moves with your
>>hand too.
>>
>>Here is a link to the exact "finger" trackball:
>>http://www.sfcable.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MS4-USB
>>I've seen them for sale at Walmart, but I couldn't find them on their
>>website.
>>
>>I bet you could mount one on top of your control stick. (Be sure to buy
>>a spare. They are not ultra high quality.) We held ours in place with
>>Velcro. You can see how your hand could grip the stick while working the
>>trackball by looking at the picture in the advertisement. Just photoshop
>>a control stick in. :*)
>>
>> Bill Dube'
>>
>>Harold wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Re pointing device, How about a Logitech Track ball, USB plug one hand
>>>operation.
>>>Thumb moves the ball, index finger left click or wheel, and middle finger
>>>right click .
>>>I gave up on the notebook touch pad, and this goes where the notebook
>>>goes...wouldn't be without it
>>>Harold
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bob(at)flyboybob.com> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
Electric Bob asked:
<< From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear? >>
My addition would be landing gear up and throttle > 1/3.
Regards,
Bob Lee
KR2 N52BL Suwanee, GA
91% done only 63% to go!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Annunciated Parameters List |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
>
>How about a simple "Master ON" reminder?
If you have active notification of low voltage (your primary
electrical system monitoring function), the it's already
jumping up and down right after the alternator is shut down
and/or the engine stops.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
>
> Main Volts Lo
> Aux Volts Lo
> Left Fuel Lo
> Right Fuel Lo
> Oil Pres Lo
> Canopy Latch
> OAT Warn
> Pitot Heat
>
Bob,
You've gotten some great feedback already. Trio Avionics
is using an LCD switch that has text that changes.
http://www.trioavionics.com/alt_hold.htm
Here's Paul Dye's home grown annunciator panel:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=5197
Whatever you do, I'd recommend leaving the labels open
for the builder to set them however they like. Clear
label makers with reverse text output work great for this.
Also, Vern's got some nice products here:
http://www.vx-aviation.com/page_2.html
Here's what I'm planning:
Engine Computer Warning
Fuel Pressure Low
Aux Fuel Pump On
OVP Active
Low Coolant
EIS Warning
The EIS Warning is linked to the GRT Avionics EIS 4000,
and it is monitoring lots of stuff.
Best regards,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
>
>Bob ...
>How about only one small LCD the size of single display light ... When a
>warning is announced, it is displayed. If there's more than one warning the
>LCD scrolls to display when the acknowledge button is pressed. The
>ackowledge button would also change the color of the displyed item until
>that item is dealt with. I think a simple aural tone would be enough to get
>attention. The aural tone would end with pushing the acknowledge button.
>This single display would fit all panels and be cheap to produce.
>My 2 cents ...
>Jerry Grimmonpre'
We talked about this . . . but sunlight viewabel LCD's are
still pretty pricey compared to an epoxy casting
full of LED which are getting cheaper daily.
. . . and certainly, new warnings would flash and deliver
a warning tone. When a button is pushed, flashing and tone
stops.
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Annunciated Parameters List |
| Subject: | RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
>
>
>Bob,
>This seems a good time to bring this up. My Chevy p/u has a cool little
>"message center" that tells me that its time to change oil, or that the
>cargo light is on, etc. It is about 1.5" square. I was wondering if it
>would be possible to adapt this to experimental a/c use as a compact
>annunciator? I don't have a clue as to how it works, but I thought that
>it may be possible to get one from GM, or out of a wreck, and then
>program a PIC to provide customized alerts for various things of
>interest. It appears to use some sort of LED panel with yellow
>lettering. So, does this sound plausible? Has anyone on the list done
>this? Am I nuts?
Not at all. In fact, this is the wave of the future.
We keep watching it. At the present time it doesn't
fit our $time$ to market model.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated |
Parameters List
This sounds like the button that Trio uses in my altitude hold :-)
Slick little item.
-BB
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters
List
Annunciated Parameters List
>
>
>Bob,
>This seems a good time to bring this up. My Chevy p/u has a cool little
>"message center" that tells me that its time to change oil, or that the
>cargo light is on, etc. It is about 1.5" square. I was wondering if it
>would be possible to adapt this to experimental a/c use as a compact
>annunciator? I don't have a clue as to how it works, but I thought that
>it may be possible to get one from GM, or out of a wreck, and then
>program a PIC to provide customized alerts for various things of
>interest. It appears to use some sort of LED panel with yellow
>lettering. So, does this sound plausible? Has anyone on the list done
>this? Am I nuts?
Not at all. In fact, this is the wave of the future.
We keep watching it. At the present time it doesn't
fit our $time$ to market model.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Annunciated Parameters List |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated |
Parameters List
>
>So if you decide to build this, throw in the aural warning. Memory in
>cheap in microprocessors these days so we record the warnings. Men can
>have the sexy woman's voice and women can have the sexy guy's voice. ;-)
That's been discussed. The voice chips are plentiful and capable.
It's a big delta $time$ for development but the idea is still
in the pot.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
>
>A couple of minor points, if I may...
>
>Isn't there some sort of "recommended standard" for the colors to be used
>for warning lights and annunciators? I thought I read something about this
>recently, but I can't seem to find a link to the article.
Yes. We use the "accepted/approved" colors for such things out
at RAC . . . but picking colors will be a trivial concern
and highly customizable.
>One other point regarding the "dead front" design: What about the first-time
>or occasional flyer of the airplane? How would they know which parameters
>were annunciated, and which would need to be monitored via a gauge or other
>indicator?
Press-to-test and power-up reset lights all the lights.
>I assume good practice would dictate that all of the annunciator lights
>would be illuminated when the battery master was turned on, then go dark
>following engine start. While this would provide some indication of what
>parameters would be annunciated, would the first-time or occasional pilot
>remember what they were?
>
>None of this may be of any importance whatsoever, but these are the sort of
>questions I would want to see asked anytime anything was being designed...
Good food for thought. Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Annunciated Parameters... |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters... |
>
> >>>>>>>>>>
>My annunciator features a FLAPS indicator that is on whenever the flaps are
>not all the way up- has proven useful several times, particularly when going
>around. Also think OAT might be annoying unless smart enough to x-check
>humidity. An EIS light would be useful for all those folks using these
>engine
>monitors...
Okay . . . it's been added.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heads up on double sided adhesive |
>
>
>One very strong adhesive tape we use is 3M VHB (for Very High Bond). It is
>great for metal to metal bonding (and just about anything else). I was told
>that it is used to bond wing skins to ribs in some aircraft applications.
>It is very thin too...
>
>www.3m.com/vhb
I'm familiar with these products. We use them in various
places around RAC.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
>
>Bob: I've looked at this problem extensively in the past, and developed
>several annunciator products, and have a few more on the drawing board.
>
>In my opinion, no matter what you choose, someone will always require
>something different than you make. If you end up being totally general
>purpose, then you may wish to consider a color LCD screen as an
>annunciator display.
We're targeting the middle market with a goal
of minimizing costs (and of course, development
time).
>This has it's drawbacks too-- many people like discrete lamps.
>
>NKK makes some (very expensive) backlit LCD switches/displays. You can
>display legends or messages on a small (about 1"x1") display, and have
>the option of incorporating a mute/acknowledge switch built into the
>display.
>
>Of course, by the time you are done, this will cost more than some
>electronic engine monitors... which are well positioned as annunciator
>displays (given enough inputs).
Yup . . .
>I also looked at customization at build time... programming inputs and
>legends. This is a very expensive (and error prone) process. If you
>can make everything field programmable by the end user, it will be
>easier and cheaper in the long term.
Yes. One version would have a USB port and a graphical
user interface for user programming of certain parameters.
Of course, with lamps, the legends are harder to change
but it's a peel-off overlay. We could fabricate a new
one pretty reasonably.
>Finally, as you (unfortunately) know, the Experimental aircraft market
>is too small to justify expensive custom tooling and software
>development, so it's nice to piggy back on other markets (like
>industrial control). Of course... you need entirely different input
>and legend requirements.... oh well!
I'm not sure that's so much of a roadblock. $time$ to market
for certified ships is going up exponentially with new no-value-added-
requirements and labor being added each year. My team of skunk-works guys
can wear a lot of hats and don't need to satisfy anyone but me
and my customers . . .
>Good luck with this project, I hope they find the recipe for success.
Thanks for sharing . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
Fuel Pres Lo
Engine (output from an engine monitor, to tell you to look at it to
see what problem it has found).
Kevin Horton
On 9 Mar 2006, at 09:56, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
>
> The wish list now stands at:
>
> Main Volts Lo
> Aux Volts Lo
> Left Fuel Lo
> Right Fuel Lo
> Oil Pres Lo
> Canopy Latch
> OAT Warn
> Pitot Heat
> Coolant Temp
> Coolant Pres
> Coolant Low
> Oil Temp
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill and Marsha" <docyukon(at)ptcnet.net> |
| Subject: | Ray Allen RP3 LED Poaition Indicator |
I have a rac rp3 indicator that I would like to use as a flap position indicator.
Can anyone tell me the color code of the six wires. And the resistance needed
for the feedback ckt? Bill S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen RP3 LED Position Indicator |
They make an indicator sender too I've got one just for that purpose.
My documentation is at the hangar - but it may be on their website......
Get me off-list if you need more info
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill and Marsha" <docyukon(at)ptcnet.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 3:39 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ray Allen RP3 LED Poaition Indicator
>
>
> I have a rac rp3 indicator that I would like to use as a flap position
> indicator. Can anyone tell me the color code of the six wires. And the
> resistance needed for the feedback ckt? Bill S.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
gear
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:56 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated
Parameters List
>
>
> Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
>
> The wish list now stands at:
>
> Main Volts Lo
> Aux Volts Lo
> Left Fuel Lo
> Right Fuel Lo
> Oil Pres Lo
> Canopy Latch
> OAT Warn
> Pitot Heat
> Coolant Temp
> Coolant Pres
> Coolant Low
> Oil Temp
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
> --
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Annunciated Parameters wish list . . . . |
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
The wish list now stands at:
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Coolant Temp
Coolant Pres
Coolant Low
Oil Temp
Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow)
Boost pump ON (white)
Fire
Flaps Warn
Fuel Pump ON
Starter engaged
P-Mag Maint
Prop Overspeed
Gear extension Warning
Nose Gear
Lt Mn Gear
Rt Mn Gear
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
--
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
>
>Electric Bob asked:
><< From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
>points of interest might be important enough to light a light
>and/or blow in your ear? >>
>
>My addition would be landing gear up and throttle > 1/3.
>
>Regards,
>
>Bob Lee
>KR2 N52BL Suwanee, GA
>91% done only 63% to go!
Good one.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Annunciated Parameters List |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
>
>Fuel Pres Lo
>Engine (output from an engine monitor, to tell you to look at it to
>see what problem it has found).
Another good one. I'll add it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> > points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> > and/or blow in your ear?
> >
> > Main Volts Lo
> > Aux Volts Lo
> > Left Fuel Lo
> > Right Fuel Lo
> > Oil Pres Lo
> > Canopy Latch
> > OAT Warn
> > Pitot Heat
>
>You know, I installed an OAT warning in my RV-4 to let me know when the
>OAT dropped below 0C. It turned out to be a huge annoyance as it would
>go off whether or not there was any chance for ice. And when there was a
>chance of ice and temps below 0C, I already knew without the warning.
>
>This tells me that an OAT warning is not particularly useful. Kind of
>like an ELT: 100 false alarms for one useful alarm.
Good data point. Now an active ice detector . . .
I did some experimenting a few years ago with piezo-electric
speaker-disks. Rigged them up in an oscillator circuit where
the electrical/mass characteristics of the disk determined
frequency. Any addition of mass to the disk (ice accretion)
dropped the frequency or killed the oscillation entirely.
That project never bubbled up to the top of the IR&D interest
list. The last concept was fragile and not terribly esthetic either.
It was a rather strange looking projection from a leading edge
although mounting it on the vertical fin seemed least likely
to offend.
Bob . . .
>--
>Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
>brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
>+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
>--
>
>
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
>
>
>Bob -
>
>I would add:
>
>Boost Pump
>Baggage Door
>Ground Power
>Starter Engaged
>Crossfeed
Good.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
>
>I know that these functions are not as common on most airplanes, but I
>have them and they could mean the difference. Speed Brakes, Ram Air
>Open, Gear Pump On, (Continental Engines and the New ECI fuel system for
>Lycomings - you don't want the pump left on in normal use - "Fuel Pump
>On")
>
>Food for thought, the Advanced Flight Systems AF-2500 has an intergraded
>customizable electronic warning system with audio built into the engine
>system package. Over the last three years I have worked with 30 plus
>owners and all seem to like this type of system. This has prompted an
>engineer friend of mine at Honeywell to come up with a LCD digital stand
>alone annunciator system. If you would like I'll keep you posted on his
>progress.
>
>Mike
Sure! One needs to keep their friends close and their competition
closer . . . but then we're all friends here. It would be interesting
to hear of any insights that can be shared.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
Emplace a "push-to-test" spring-loaded button next to the annunciator panel
that illuminates the chicklets. Then you can verify not just when the
master initially comes on, but also any time on ground or in flight to
verify function.
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Denton
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 9:14 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question
A couple of minor points, if I may...
Isn't there some sort of "recommended standard" for the colors to be used
for warning lights and annunciators? I thought I read something about this
recently, but I can't seem to find a link to the article.
Regarding the "dead front" design, let me mention a usability issue from the
computer field that might or might not be relevant in the aviation world:
Consider a computer program with two "screens". When you are on one screen,
you can both "Print" and "Save" data, and there are "buttons" at the top of
the screen that allow you to accomplish this. But on the second page, you
can only "Print" the data. Common sense would dictate that since you can't
save information on the second page, there would be no need to display a
"Save" button; only a "Print" button would be required.
But we determined that users preferred to also have a "Save" button on the
second page, even though it was disabled and non-functional. A consistent
button layout provided more usability than a design in which buttons
appeared and disappeared, which tended to confuse users.
Again, I don't know if this is relevant in the aircraft world, but it might
be worth considering.
One other point regarding the "dead front" design: What about the first-time
or occasional flyer of the airplane? How would they know which parameters
were annunciated, and which would need to be monitored via a gauge or other
indicator?
I assume good practice would dictate that all of the annunciator lights
would be illuminated when the battery master was turned on, then go dark
following engine start. While this would provide some indication of what
parameters would be annunciated, would the first-time or occasional pilot
remember what they were?
None of this may be of any importance whatsoever, but these are the sort of
questions I would want to see asked anytime anything was being designed...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question
I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
both fabrication and software that would make the product
highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
when not illuminated.
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "D Wysong" <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Annunciated Parameters wish list . . . . |
A few more from the turbine community, Bob (... if applicable):
Chip Detect
BVC Fault
Anti-Ice
Fuel Filter
Oil Filter
Fuel Pressure
Gen
All are fault lights on a Caution/Advisory panel that I've stared at
for one too many hours...
D
-------------------
On 3/9/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research (roll your own annunciator panel) |
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1124/annunciatorpanel0rx.jpg
Here is a thread on how to make your own annunciator:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=5197&page=1&pp=10&highlight=annunciator
Here is vx-aviation annunciator controller:
http://www.vx-aviation.com/page_2.html#IL-4A,%20IL-12A_more
Vx-aviation is coming out with an annunciator panel which looks like:
http://vx-aviation.com/photos/AN-4A_product.jpg
The annunciator lights are modular so you can build up 4 or 12.
At most I would have 3 annunciators:
Volts, Oil P, Boost Pump (if I had discrete lights)
I don't personally need discrete annunciators. I have a GRT EIS 4000,
a brilliant piece of equipment that monitors everything. When I say
everything I mean everything. The EIS-4000 has a master caution
warning light that warns if there is an exceedance (Hi/Lo/Rate of change)
for every parameter of ALL aircraft system's:
(volt's/current/pressure's/flow's/level's/temp's/rpm/map)
This is the warning function works like this (look at bottom):
http://www.grtavionics.com/images/M46_Fig1B.GIF
http://www.grtavionics.com/images/M46_Fig1A.GIF
The only discrete lights the EIS4000 does not annunciate for me
at this time is the alternator's own internal warning light (internal VR).
I used (yellow) for caution.
The only other system light I considered was Fuel Pump - ON (blue).
If I did not have the GRT EIS4000, I would add Oil Pressure (red).
As far as colors this is what Boeing uses.
Red - Warning - requires urgent action to avoid damage
Yellow - Caution - may require action but not as urgent
White - Advisory - system Info (not flight critical / maintenance)
Blue - Normal system state
Cheers George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | rivet & rivnut tool |
Hello all,
I am considering getting a tool for rivets and rivnuts.
Has anyone used this rivet tool? Any negative/positive feedback?
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/360degreerivet.php
Can the above be used also for rivnuts by adding this "installer":
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=1845/index.html
Tx
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
>
>
>Emplace a "push-to-test" spring-loaded button next to the annunciator panel
>that illuminates the chicklets. Then you can verify not just when the
>master initially comes on, but also any time on ground or in flight to
>verify function.
>
>Rob
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
>Denton
>Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 9:14 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question
>
>
>A couple of minor points, if I may...
>
>Isn't there some sort of "recommended standard" for the colors to be used
>for warning lights and annunciators? I thought I read something about this
>recently, but I can't seem to find a link to the article.
>I assume good practice would dictate that all of the annunciator lights
>would be illuminated when the battery master was turned on, then go dark
>following engine start. While this would provide some indication of what
>parameters would be annunciated, would the first-time or occasional pilot
>remember what they were?
>
>None of this may be of any importance whatsoever, but these are the sort of
>questions I would want to see asked anytime anything was being designed...
All good points to ponder, I'll share them with the team.
I'm not sure these discussions will generate a product.
To be sure, there are dozens of starry-eyed entrepreneurs
who hope their ideas will become the next greatest thing.
I think the thrust of our thinking is to address the value of
gathering as much useful data into a small panel space
at the lowest cost. The task isn't so much figuring out how
to push the leading edge. The vast majority of OBAM aircraft
have no formal annunciator panel . . . just a scattering
of lights.
It's a given that modern hardware driven by creative
software can do anything the designer can envision. The
real business trick is to decide what approach will have
the greatest market appeal with the shortest time to market.
Some folks are making a living selling hammers and screwdrivers
while others choose laser levels and radar stud finders.
It's axiomatic that return on investment peaks someplace between
the latest-and-greatest and the best we could do 50 years ago.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rivet & rivnut tool |
I've used the rivnut installer you've linked to. After a few uses, the
shaft gets a little buggered up and it doesn't slide back out of the
rivet puller as easily. It seemed like I could really mess it up if I
pulled too tight. I've only installed about 6 or 8 rivnuts with it and
would rate is as usable for a limited number of installations. If I were
going to do a lot of them, I think I would invest in a more expensive
tool.
I use this http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/powerlink30.php
rivet tool. It seems to work OK and I have no complaints about it.
Bob W.
rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am considering getting a tool for rivets and rivnuts.
>
> Has anyone used this rivet tool? Any negative/positive feedback?
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/360degreerivet.php
>
> Can the above be used also for rivnuts by adding this "installer":
>
> http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=1845/index.html
>
> Tx
>
> Rumen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
http://www.bob-white.com
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (first engine start 1/7/06)
Custom Cables for your rotary installation -
http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: rivet & rivnut tool |
I have that rivet tool. It seems to work just fine with all the various
pop rivets I have used it on - small to large, steel or aluminum.
There are little cast-in stops inside the handle that broke on mine
after a very few rivets (when the rivet "pop"s the handles come together
sharply - as do all pop riveters). The missing stops seem to have no
adverse effect on the function however. Not really sure why they are
there in the first place.
I have not used the rivnut accessory from Wicks.
Dick Tasker
rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote:
>
>Hello all,
>
>I am considering getting a tool for rivets and rivnuts.
>
>Has anyone used this rivet tool? Any negative/positive feedback?
>
>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/360degreerivet.php
>
>Can the above be used also for rivnuts by adding this "installer":
>
>http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=1845/index.html
>
>Tx
>
>Rumen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry2DT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
I would love to have fuel pressure.
Jerry
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated
Parameters List
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
>From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
The wish list now stands at:
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Coolant Temp
Coolant Pres
Coolant Low
Oil Temp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
I would add:
Carb ice
Transmitting
I presume "Aux Volts Lo" is actually "E-Bus Low", so why not identify it
that way?
I would like to see the lamps triggerable on either:
Above a threshold (trimpot settable)
Below a threshold (trimpot settable)
Here's an example of how to fill up 24 slots:
http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel.gif
I'll buy one if it's reasonably priced.
Dave Morris
At 08:20 AM 3/9/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
>El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
>They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
>whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
>the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
>trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
>
>A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
>would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
>both fabrication and software that would make the product
>highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
>are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
>the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
>is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
>when not illuminated.
>
>Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
>points of interest might be important enough to light a light
>and/or blow in your ear?
>
>Main Volts Lo
>Aux Volts Lo
>Left Fuel Lo
>Right Fuel Lo
>Oil Pres Lo
>Canopy Latch
>OAT Warn
>Pitot Heat
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vern W." <highflight1(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters |
List
Without stating what I'M going to use for annunciators because I haven't
decided yet, I am thinking of these things so I'll simply add that:
I've seen some people install a "Starter" warning light in case the starter
hangs. That might warrant a red warning light as well.
If you're more paranoid, you might be someone who installs an oil level
sending unit so you could have a warning for "Low Oil".
But there's also some annunciators that are just status annuniators so you
would want them to be Blue or Green or some other non heart pounding color.
These just remind you that you are running these devices so you don't forget
to turn them off when you don't need them.
Like:
"Aux. Batt." (when the secondary battery is in the loop)
"Flaps" (in any position other than up)
"Landing Lights"
"Fuel Pump" to remind you when you have the electric fuel pump turned on.
"Nav Lights"
"Ipod Batt. Low" although you might want to make this a RED alert light.
The only thing limiting annunciation is imagination and panel space. :-)
Vern W.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
Definately need the nukes armed annunciator I hate to land with them
in the armed position. Especially after getting bad carb ice and a forced
landing :)
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Morris "BigD"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question
>
>
> I would add:
>
> Carb ice
> Transmitting
>
> I presume "Aux Volts Lo" is actually "E-Bus Low", so why not identify it
> that way?
>
> I would like to see the lamps triggerable on either:
> Above a threshold (trimpot settable)
> Below a threshold (trimpot settable)
>
> Here's an example of how to fill up 24 slots:
> http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel.gif
>
> I'll buy one if it's reasonably priced.
>
> Dave Morris
>
>
> At 08:20 AM 3/9/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
>>El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
>>They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
>>whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
>>the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
>>trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
>>
>>A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
>>would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
>>both fabrication and software that would make the product
>>highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
>>are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
>>the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
>>is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
>>when not illuminated.
>>
>>Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
>> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
>>points of interest might be important enough to light a light
>>and/or blow in your ear?
>>
>>Main Volts Lo
>>Aux Volts Lo
>>Left Fuel Lo
>>Right Fuel Lo
>>Oil Pres Lo
>>Canopy Latch
>>OAT Warn
>>Pitot Heat
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
>> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
>> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
>> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
>> < with experiment. >
>> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PJ Seipel <seipel(at)seznam.cz> |
| Subject: | Re: rivet & rivnut tool |
Don't buy the tool from Aircraft Spruce. I have that one and I hate
it. The swiveling head has been useful once or twice, but it's
definitely not worth $40. Go to Harbor Freight and buy the $6.99 one.
It works great, and you can grind down the front of the head to get into
tight spots.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=7356
PJ
rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am considering getting a tool for rivets and rivnuts.
>
> Has anyone used this rivet tool? Any negative/positive feedback?
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/360degreerivet.php
>
> Can the above be used also for rivnuts by adding this "installer":
>
> http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=1845/index.html
>
> Tx
>
> Rumen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Annunciated Parameters wish list . . . . |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 9:36 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Annunciated Parameters wish list . . . .
-->
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of
interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear?
The wish list now stands at:
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Coolant Temp
Coolant Pres
Coolant Low
Oil Temp
Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow)
Boost pump ON (white)
Fire
Flaps Warn
Fuel Pump ON
Starter engaged
P-Mag Maint
Prop Overspeed
Gear extension Warning
Nose Gear
Lt Mn Gear
Rt Mn Gear
Bob: Wowee. Is this getting out of hand? Perhaps it would be wise to
consider what to leave out.
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
--
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> . . . |
| Subject: | RE: Annunciated Parameters wish list . . . . |
>
>Bob: Wowee. Is this getting out of hand? Perhaps it would be wise to
>consider what to leave out.
>
>Gordon Comfort
>N363GC
Patience my friend . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
>
>
>I would add:
>
>Carb ice
>Transmitting
>
>I presume "Aux Volts Lo" is actually "E-Bus Low", so why not identify it
>that way?
Because it's Aux Volts Low. When the e-bus is being used
in it's backup function, it's always low volts . . . battery
only.
Aux volts is used to watch an aux battery bus to make sure
that the aux battery contactor has is closed and/or
has not failed.
>I would like to see the lamps triggerable on either:
>Above a threshold (trimpot settable)
>Below a threshold (trimpot settable)
The exciting talk right now is to make various functions
user programmable via graphical user interface running
out of a PC.
>Here's an example of how to fill up 24 slots:
>http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel.gif
>
>I'll buy one if it's reasonably priced.
What's a reasonable price?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | In rush limiters |
I'm looking at the in-rush limiters that you recommend installing in the
landing light circuit Bob. These look like the old mica capacitors you used
to see in tube televisions. I have a bit of trepidation about how to mount
these securely and make a secure connection to the landing light wiring.
Any suggestions here? Solder and heat shrink in line with the wire seems a
bit flimsy and floppy to me, what would you recommend?
Anyone else on the list using in-rush limiters? How did you mount them and
what are your experiences so far?
Also I have an aluminum aircraft (RV-6A) and plan to ground the landing,
taxi and position lights locally on the spar at the wingtip. From your
comments and your book it doesn't sound like this will be a problem if I
make good solid gas-tight connections. Any additional words of wisdom here?
Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Autocad tweaks & load analysis.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Market Survey Phase II |
Okay, the list is pretty complete. Now what I need
is your ranking of priorities for items on the list.
FORWARD your response to me directly at nuckollsr(at)cox.net
instead of to the List. We don't want go snow the list
with a lot of anecdotal posts. Further, I know there are
lots of folks who watch this list that seldom if ever post
to the list. Please give me the benefit of your inputs too.
I need at least 30 and hopefully 50 or more responses to make it
a statistically significant survey. Just add numbers after
the items on the list in order of priority, #1 being highest.
Go out to as many as 20 but the first 9 are most important
followed by the next 3.
I'll wait about a week and then tabulate the data for
publication on the list. If you have any questions as to the
meaning of any item, email me directly.
The wish list now stands at:
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Fuel Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat
Coolant Temp
Coolant Pres
Coolant Low
Oil Temp
Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow)
Boost pump ON (white)
Fire
Flaps Warn
Fuel Pump ON
Starter engaged
P-Mag Maint
Prop Overspeed
Gear extension Warning
Nose Gear
Lt Mn Gear
Rt Mn Gear
Boost Pump
Baggage Door
Ground Power
Chip Detect
BVC Fault
Anti-Ice
Fuel Filter
Oil Filter
Crossfeed closed
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
I still think Carb Ice is more important than OAT. I have a carb temp
sensor in the throat of my MS carb and it would be a simple matter to read
it out on the annunciator. A carb can ice up in 80 degree OAT weather.
User programmable via PC, yeah, OK, I suppose. Nowadays it's probably
cheaper that way than to install a bunch of trimpots. But if the PC
interface adds cost, I would go the other way.
I would prefer to see user-defined legends on the lights, as opposed to
having a bunch of excess unused lights that mean nothing in my
non-retractable, single fuel tank, fixed pitch prop aircraft.
Angle-of-Attack sensors are also becoming the rage. You could make another
simple interface to the annunciator panel for high AOA.
PM dynamos have an output line for an idiot light. Why not use that to
feed the annunciator to give a warning indication of dynamo failure
independent of any other bus voltage sensing.
All "nukes armed" kidding aside, my requirements would be for a panel that
had these lights: http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel2005.jpg
I had already ordered one of these from a company that produced my switch
panels, and their price was $95. However, they seem to have gone out of
business within the last couple of months, so my "reasonable" price would
probably top out at $300 to $500 depending on how well the panel was
adaptable to my needs.
Dave Morris
At 08:48 PM 3/10/2006, you wrote:
> >
> >I would add:
> >
> >Carb ice
> >Transmitting
> >
> >I presume "Aux Volts Lo" is actually "E-Bus Low", so why not identify it
> >that way?
>
> Because it's Aux Volts Low. When the e-bus is being used
> in it's backup function, it's always low volts . . . battery
> only.
>
> Aux volts is used to watch an aux battery bus to make sure
> that the aux battery contactor has is closed and/or
> has not failed.
>
>
> >I would like to see the lamps triggerable on either:
> >Above a threshold (trimpot settable)
> >Below a threshold (trimpot settable)
>
> The exciting talk right now is to make various functions
> user programmable via graphical user interface running
> out of a PC.
>
>
> >Here's an example of how to fill up 24 slots:
> >http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel.gif
> >
> >I'll buy one if it's reasonably priced.
>
> What's a reasonable price?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
>
>
>I still think Carb Ice is more important than OAT. I have a carb temp
>sensor in the throat of my MS carb and it would be a simple matter to read
>it out on the annunciator. A carb can ice up in 80 degree OAT weather.
You can weigh in by prioritizing and forwarding you own list . . .
>User programmable via PC, yeah, OK, I suppose. Nowadays it's probably
>cheaper that way than to install a bunch of trimpots. But if the PC
>interface adds cost, I would go the other way.
External GUI on a PC is always the lowest cost end product. The
External software is no mean task either but as far as keeping
size, weight, parts count and price down in the end product,
external programmability is the way to do.
>I would prefer to see user-defined legends on the lights, as opposed to
>having a bunch of excess unused lights that mean nothing in my
>non-retractable, single fuel tank, fixed pitch prop aircraft.
It's been suggested that the survey is more a promotional tool
than a design study. If we were considering a fully programmable
LCD screen device with infinite options, I would agree. The
topic came up at lunch to see what a minimum cost product with
a fixed set of monitored parameters might look like. Of course,
ANY combination could be offered as a customized product . . .
but folks who can afford my exorbitant consulting fees would probably
go get some super-whizzy off-the-shelf product.
I don't know that this product will ever come into being in
our shop. This is a what-if-how-when-and-why discussion that makes
a whole lot more sense if a potential consumer based participates
than if we sat around and an hypothesized as to what's wanted/needed.
And as I said, I'll publish the results of the survey here.
Any entrepreneur who wants to capitalize on the conversation
and subsequent data are welcome to jump in.
>Angle-of-Attack sensors are also becoming the rage. You could make another
>simple interface to the annunciator panel for high AOA.
I'm not aware of any stand-alone-sensors that us po' folk could
afford . . . and don't most turn-key systems offer built in
alarm functions?
>PM dynamos have an output line for an idiot light. Why not use that to
>feed the annunciator to give a warning indication of dynamo failure
>independent of any other bus voltage sensing.
repeat after me . . . ACTIVE NOTIFICATION OF LOW VOLTAGE AT THE
BUS IS THE SIMPLE-IDEA DEFINITION OF AN INACTIVE POWER GENERATION
SYSTEM.
The problem with the plethora of 'warning' functions built into
the various products, I have neither the access or the time to
invest in vetting each of those features as to functionality,
reliability, etc. A pre-flight testable, active notification system
that's independent of the power generation system or it's accessories
works all the time, every time with any combination of system hardware.
>All "nukes armed" kidding aside, my requirements would be for a panel that
>had these lights: http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel2005.jpg
>I had already ordered one of these from a company that produced my switch
>panels, and their price was $95. However, they seem to have gone out of
>business within the last couple of months, so my "reasonable" price would
>probably top out at $300 to $500 depending on how well the panel was
>adaptable to my needs.
I'm guessing of course but at $95 each, they'd have to sell a boat-load
of those so as to make up for the losses in volume . . .
If you'd care to convert the .jpg data into a prioritized listing, I'd
be pleased to include your preferences in the calculation of market
survey data.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: In rush limiters |
>
>
>I'm looking at the in-rush limiters that you recommend installing in the
>landing light circuit Bob. These look like the old mica capacitors you used
>to see in tube televisions. I have a bit of trepidation about how to mount
>these securely and make a secure connection to the landing light wiring.
>Any suggestions here? Solder and heat shrink in line with the wire seems a
>bit flimsy and floppy to me, what would you recommend?
>
>Anyone else on the list using in-rush limiters? How did you mount them and
>what are your experiences so far?
>
>Also I have an aluminum aircraft (RV-6A) and plan to ground the landing,
>taxi and position lights locally on the spar at the wingtip. From your
>comments and your book it doesn't sound like this will be a problem if I
>make good solid gas-tight connections. Any additional words of wisdom here?
>Thanks.
On Digikey catalog page:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T061/1327.pdf
we find this data:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/GE_Sensors/GE_Inrush_Limiters.jpg
These used to be the Keystone Carbon Co. products and have been
around for a long time. I used them on the GP-180 taxi and recognition
lights. The first time experimental techs turned on the taxi light
with a KC003 limiter in series, the thing 'blew up'. Seems he mounted
the limiter to the inside surface of the taxi light fixture on the landing
gear. It was held down with a very robust clamp worthy of installation on
the nose gear of an aircraft. The mounting sinked out so much heat that
the device wasn't allowed to warm up to its very low resistance, low
wattage 'hot' mode so it self-destructed.
I bought some Fiberglas sleeving (actually door gasket material
for wood burning stoves) and we fabricated a mechanically robust
but thermally isolated mounting for the KC003. Worked just fine after
that. Inrush on the lamp dropped from 60+ down to about 10A.
Pick a limiter with a max steady state current equal to or as much
as 1/3 higher than your operating current. Wrap it up in some
thermally appropriate materials to clamp it for support. You're correct,
the solid copper lead wires are not looked upon with favor in
aircraft fabrication techniques. I'd cut them of to about 1/4", then make
little loops for soldering 22759 leadwires.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Marketing research question |
Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:
>
> I still think Carb Ice is more important than OAT. I have a carb temp
> sensor in the throat of my MS carb and it would be a simple matter to read
> it out on the annunciator. A carb can ice up in 80 degree OAT weather.
And the carb can reach an OAT of 0C just downstream of the throat
without producing ice. If the temp has not reached the dew-point for the
air passing through, you won't get ice as the moisture will not come out
of the air.
This is why temperature, either carb or OAT, is not particularly useful
for determining icing conditions. Certainly you cannot have ice when the
temps are above 0C but you are not going to have ice below 0C if there
is no visible moisture. And carb ice will form only if you have visible
moisture *after* the temp drop in the throat of the carb.
As I said in a previous post, a temp-only warning is just flat out
annoying as it says "wolf" a lot more often that it every gives you
useful information. I eventually disabled my carb air temp warning and
my OAT warning as they proved to be pretty useless.
> Angle-of-Attack sensors are also becoming the rage. You could make another
> simple interface to the annunciator panel for high AOA.
The problem with annunciator panels is they are not part of the normal
scan, especially in VFR operations. I suspect that most people with AoA
indicators are going to put the AoA display in their primary scan even
when they are 'heads-up' (looking outside). Then the annunciator is not
in view and an AoA alert would cause them to look inside.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Annunciator panel LED brightness |
All this talk about annunciator panels has got
me thinking about mine. Looking at the LEDs
on eBay, I'm wondering what brightness of
LEDs I should use? Anyone have any suggestions?
These guys http://www.superbrightleds.com/leds.htm
show LEDs from about 1500 mcd up to 18,000 mcd.
This offer on eBay shows 27,000 mcd. I'm planning
to have the LEDs behind some colored plastic
covers. Obviously I'd like them to be visible
during the day, and dimmable to something reasonable
at night. Not sure how far down a LED can be
dimmed.
Thanks for any suggestions.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | B&C SSF-1 finally died |
After 834 hobbs hours of nearly continuous use, my B&C SSF-1 wig-wag flasher
died. I can either plunk down another $22 for a drop-in replacement, or I
could explore cheaper options.
I found a Trident auto flasher that *looks* pretty much identical, but they
say it has a "Design Life" of 500 hours. If it's the same as the SSF-1,
that would be one way to save about 9 bucks.
http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?11850
I'm not looking for anything fancy, like the CreativAir setup. I want a
3-wire (+12v, load 1, load 2) drop-in replacement. I wouldn't mind
soldering it up myself but I don't have the expertise to "design" one. Will
probably go with another B&C SSF-1, but would love to be able to
solder-it-myself and/or save some bucks. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (834 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Market Survey Phase II |
| From: | "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
Bob,
I think it might be better to, initially, group the items into HIGH,
MED, LOW priority.
I have added a category for " ? " because either I don't understand
it, or because it would totally depend upon the installation specific
criticality of the function to be alarmed.
H = HIGH priority, M = Medium, L = Low, as follows.
H Main Volts Lo
M Aux Volts Lo
M Left Fuel Lo
M Right Fuel Lo
H Oil Pres Lo
H Fuel Pres Lo
? Canopy Latch
L OAT Warn
L Pitot Heat
H Coolant Temp
H Coolant Pres
H Coolant Low
H Oil Temp
M Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow)
L Boost pump ON (white)
H Fire
L Flaps Warn
L Fuel Pump ON
H Starter engaged
L P-Mag Maint
L Prop Overspeed
H Gear extension Warning
H Nose Gear
H Lt Mn Gear
H Rt Mn Gear
L Boost Pump
? Baggage Door
L Ground Power
H ? Chip Detect
? BVC Fault
? Anti-Ice
? Fuel Filter
L Oil Filter
? Crossfeed closed
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Market Survey Phase II |
I like George's category suggestion and offer my priorities.
David
>
> H = HIGH priority, M = Medium, L = Low, as follows.
>
>
> H Main Volts Lo
H Main Volts Hi
>
> L Aux Volts Lo
>
> L Left Fuel Lo
>
> L Right Fuel Lo
>
> H Oil Pres Lo
>
> H Fuel Pres Lo
>
> ? Canopy Latch
>
> L OAT Warn
>
> L Pitot Heat
>
> ? Coolant Temp
>
> ? Coolant Pres
>
> ? Coolant Low
>
> H Oil Temp Hi
>
> M Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow)
>
> L Boost pump ON (white)
>
> H Fire
>
> L Flaps Warn
>
> H Fuel Pump ON
>
> H Starter engaged
>
> L P-Mag Maint
>
> L Prop Overspeed
>
> H Gear extension Warning
>
> H Nose Gear
>
> H Lt Mn Gear
>
> H Rt Mn Gear
>
> H Boost Pump
>
> ? Baggage Door
>
> L Ground Power
>
> H ? Chip Detect
>
> ? BVC Fault
>
> ? Anti-Ice
>
> ? Fuel Filter
>
> L Oil Filter
>
> ? Crossfeed closed
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:25 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Market Survey Phase II
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I think it might be better to, initially, group the items into
> HIGH,
> MED, LOW priority.
>
> I have added a category for " ? " because either I don't
> understand
> it, or because it would totally depend upon the installation
> specific
> criticality of the function to be alarmed.
>
>
> H = HIGH priority, M = Medium, L = Low, as follows.
>
>
> H Main Volts Lo
>
> M Aux Volts Lo
>
> M Left Fuel Lo
>
> M Right Fuel Lo
>
> H Oil Pres Lo
>
> H Fuel Pres Lo
>
> ? Canopy Latch
>
> L OAT Warn
>
> L Pitot Heat
>
> H Coolant Temp
>
> H Coolant Pres
>
> H Coolant Low
>
> H Oil Temp
>
> M Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow)
>
> L Boost pump ON (white)
>
> H Fire
>
> L Flaps Warn
>
> L Fuel Pump ON
>
> H Starter engaged
>
> L P-Mag Maint
>
> L Prop Overspeed
>
> H Gear extension Warning
>
> H Nose Gear
>
> H Lt Mn Gear
>
> H Rt Mn Gear
>
> L Boost Pump
>
> ? Baggage Door
>
> L Ground Power
>
> H ? Chip Detect
>
> ? BVC Fault
>
> ? Anti-Ice
>
> ? Fuel Filter
>
> L Oil Filter
>
> ? Crossfeed closed
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Michael <jm(at)10squaredcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Starter problem analysis |
I am trying to troubleshoot a problem with the starter on my Stinson.
The problem seems to occur only when the engine is hot. When the
engine is cold the engine turns over fine. When hot, the starter acts
like it's trying to turn and after multiple attempts it will finally
start turning over. I've read that this is a low voltage condition
and I've taken some voltage readings with the engine cold:
Prior to charging battery: 12.38 VDC at the terminals
After charging battery: 12.87 VDC at the terminals
Battery voltage at terminals while cranking: 10.4 VDC
Voltage across starter while cranking: 9.8 VDC
Voltage across master and starter solenoid while cranking: < 1 VDC
The ground connection consists of a cable from the battery to the
engine mount and from another engine mount point to the engine via a
ground strap.
I plan to take a meter and test leads with me to get some readings the
next time the problem arises, but do these readings indicate a
problem with the starter or battery?
I hope this is the right forum for this question, if not please
forgive the intrusion.
Thanks,
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died |
>
>After 834 hobbs hours of nearly continuous use, my B&C SSF-1 wig-wag flasher
>died. I can either plunk down another $22 for a drop-in replacement, or I
>could explore cheaper options.
>
>I found a Trident auto flasher that *looks* pretty much identical, but they
>say it has a "Design Life" of 500 hours. If it's the same as the SSF-1,
>that would be one way to save about 9 bucks.
>http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?11850
>
>I'm not looking for anything fancy, like the CreativAir setup. I want a
>3-wire (+12v, load 1, load 2) drop-in replacement. I wouldn't mind
>soldering it up myself but I don't have the expertise to "design" one. Will
>probably go with another B&C SSF-1, but would love to be able to
>solder-it-myself and/or save some bucks. Any ideas?
The SSF-1 is a heavy duty automotive device. I've not researched
it in detail but it's a fair bet that the pinout is the same
as for other flashers having the same pin size and spacing.
Odds are that the item you've cited above (or similar from local
parts store) will work.
Solder? I thought that 1/4" fast-on tabs fit those
flashers. Why is there any soldering involved?
As to "saving" money, what's your time worth? You may
spend several hours locating a substitute, there is
risk (small) that the sub doesn't work, etc. Not trying
to talk you out of trying something new and different
but if cost is the biggest driver for your decision,
the sub may be less than a bargain.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Annunciator panel LED brightness |
>
>
>All this talk about annunciator panels has got
>me thinking about mine. Looking at the LEDs
>on eBay, I'm wondering what brightness of
>LEDs I should use? Anyone have any suggestions?
>
>These guys http://www.superbrightleds.com/leds.htm
>show LEDs from about 1500 mcd up to 18,000 mcd.
>This offer on eBay shows 27,000 mcd. I'm planning
>to have the LEDs behind some colored plastic
>covers. Obviously I'd like them to be visible
>during the day, and dimmable to something reasonable
>at night. Not sure how far down a LED can be
>dimmed.
As bright as you can get. You can always make them
less but never make them more.
LEDs can be dimmed from any maximum output all the
way down to invisible . . . the major problem is
that they're CURRENT operated devices, not VOLTAGE.
Duty cycle switching at full operating current is
the most practical way to dim them (if our annunciator
comes into being, it will have a DIM input that tracks
the incandescent lamp dimming curve based on voltage.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter problem analysis |
Jim,
I would suspicious that there is something worn, wrong with the
armature and or its bearings. Maybe, some part of windings are loose
and expand with heat such that it physically contacts the surrounding
structures. Could be just worn bearings that combined with run-out
allows the armature to partially jam when hot, but, just clears when
cold.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Michael" <jm(at)10squaredcorp.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter problem analysis
>
>
> I am trying to troubleshoot a problem with the starter on my
> Stinson.
> The problem seems to occur only when the engine is hot. When the
> engine is cold the engine turns over fine. When hot, the starter
> acts
> like it's trying to turn and after multiple attempts it will finally
> start turning over. I've read that this is a low voltage condition
> and I've taken some voltage readings with the engine cold:
>
> Prior to charging battery: 12.38 VDC at the terminals
> After charging battery: 12.87 VDC at the terminals
> Battery voltage at terminals while cranking: 10.4 VDC
> Voltage across starter while cranking: 9.8 VDC
> Voltage across master and starter solenoid while cranking: < 1 VDC
>
> The ground connection consists of a cable from the battery to the
> engine mount and from another engine mount point to the engine via a
> ground strap.
>
> I plan to take a meter and test leads with me to get some readings
> the
> next time the problem arises, but do these readings indicate a
> problem with the starter or battery?
>
> I hope this is the right forum for this question, if not please
> forgive the intrusion.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Market Survey Phase II |
Understand, but not helpful. If one is going to do a statistical
analysis on data, the data have to be offered in the same form by
every participant. What I need is a 1 to 12 listing of the most important
items. If you want to call your "H" items 1-4 and "M" items 5-7 and
"L" times 8-12, that's fine too but the responses useful to me will
be numbered.
It's interesting that out of the 10 responses received so far, only
4 are useful to the task at hand.
Bob . . .
>
>I like George's category suggestion and offer my priorities.
>David
> >
> > H = HIGH priority, M = Medium, L = Low, as follows.
> >
> >
> > H Main Volts Lo
> H Main Volts Hi
> >
> > L Aux Volts Lo
> >
> > L Left Fuel Lo
> >
> > L Right Fuel Lo
> >
> > H Oil Pres Lo
> >
> > H Fuel Pres Lo
> >
> > ? Canopy Latch
> >
> > L OAT Warn
> >
> > L Pitot Heat
> >
> > ? Coolant Temp
> >
> > ? Coolant Pres
> >
> > ? Coolant Low
> >
> > H Oil Temp Hi
> >
> > M Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow)
> >
> > L Boost pump ON (white)
> >
> > H Fire
> >
> > L Flaps Warn
> >
> > H Fuel Pump ON
> >
> > H Starter engaged
> >
> > L P-Mag Maint
> >
> > L Prop Overspeed
> >
> > H Gear extension Warning
> >
> > H Nose Gear
> >
> > H Lt Mn Gear
> >
> > H Rt Mn Gear
> >
> > H Boost Pump
> >
> > ? Baggage Door
> >
> > L Ground Power
> >
> > H ? Chip Detect
> >
> > ? BVC Fault
> >
> > ? Anti-Ice
> >
> > ? Fuel Filter
> >
> > L Oil Filter
> >
> > ? Crossfeed closed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.com |
Bob:
My level of electrical knowledge is pretty limited, but is it possible that
Figure Z-33 in the 'Connection showing wiring for P-mags has an error?
Z-33 has the p-mag wires labeled by color (grn, red orn, and blk). Power
appears to be supplied to the p-mag from the bat bus through the "orn" wire
when the 2-10 switch is in the up position.
Comparing to the e-magair manual - see pgs 4 and 15 in
http://www.emagair.com/Manual%20L113v8.pdf
the manual seems to indicate that +13.8V power would be supplied by the red
wire (postion 5 on the control plug), and that the "orn" wire (position 4
on the plug) is the P-lead to ground (NOT power). The blk and grn wires
are for ground and tach respectively, consistent with Z-33.
Did I catch you, or am I just too hung up on wire colors?
While I got you cornered (?), I am unclear on how the additional switch you
suggest for ign maintenance would be used. When closed, it appears to
supply power from the bat bus to the p-mags while the two ignition switches
are in the off position. Okay, but what does this do for me?
still learning...
Erich Weaver
This e-mail and any attachments are confidential. If you receive this
message in error or are not the intended recipient, you should not retain,
distribute, disclose or use any of this information and you should destroy
the e-mail and any attachments or copies.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Dan -
Which CO kit did you build? Where to get it? How much?
Thanks,
John Schroeder
wrote:
> And like the CO sensor
> kit that I soldered up. I mean, I did build a plane after all...
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Annuciator Lights Suggestion |
How about: Gattling Guns Blazing or, Bombs Away ;-) Sorry I couldn't
resist.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died |
> Which CO kit did you build? Where to get it? How much?
http://www.electronic-kits-and-projects.com/4055.htm
I did a group buy with a bunch of local RV builders, so we took advantage of
the 5+ discount and the int'l shipping ended up being essentially
negligible.
Soldered it up and tested it with my truck exhaust, acetone vapor, etc. It
seems to work as advertised, although I have to admit I haven't even
installed it in the plane yet! (doh!)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Annunciator panel LED brightness |
If you folks are really interested in a cheap (pretty sure I have less than
$30 in the thing), very effective annunciator panel, this has worked out very
well for me- after almost 300 hours I haven't missed a single "annunciation"
and couldn't be happier with the reliability, brightness, or anything else for
that matter of this very basic, functional and easy to build project:
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5130
Scroll backwards and forwards through the log entrys for the whole story. I
you want a custom a-panel at minimum cost, and a fun, interesting project to
put together, this silly little thing definately fit the bill for me.....
>From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Lightspeed Ignition with Key switch |
I've been looking at my drawings one more time before actually wiring this
up. I have one (Slick) magneto and one Lightspeed Plasma II+. I was hoping
to hook them BOTH to the standard aircraft key switch (A-510-2) but in
looking at it again, I'm not sure that will work. If I connect the Plasma
II+ at the key switch ground (GRD) and the "R" terminal I have a usable
connection. If however, I want to also connect the Left Magneto P-lead to
the switch then I have to connect the center conductor of the magneto P-lead
to the "L" terminal and the "P" Lead shield to the switch "GRD" connection.
The only problem with this is that the other end of the magneto P-lead
shield will have to be grounded out at the magneto case which, I believe,
would effectively ground it to the airframe and battery negative potential.
According to a note on Lightspeed's connection diagram, the Plasma II+ key
switch wiring can NOT be connected to airframe ground.
So...it appears to me that I cannot connect both the Plasma II+ and a
magneto P-lead to the same key switch!? For you folks running this same set
up, do I understand this correctly or am I missing something? Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Autocad psychosis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris & Kellie Hand" <ckhand(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died |
Dan,
I installed mine (first one - zero hours) a couple weeks ago and wrote down
the part identification info before gluing that side of the flasher to the
mounting plate. Haven't tried any auto parts stores to see if they carry a
replacement, but it was identified as:
TRIDON EL13 A-2
ALT/FLASHER
150 W/channel, +12 V
SAE J105
1254C2
Chris Hand
RV-6A, N731CK (reserved)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:10 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died
>
>
> After 834 hobbs hours of nearly continuous use, my B&C SSF-1 wig-wag
> flasher
> died. I can either plunk down another $22 for a drop-in replacement, or I
> could explore cheaper options.
>
> I found a Trident auto flasher that *looks* pretty much identical, but
> they
> say it has a "Design Life" of 500 hours. If it's the same as the SSF-1,
> that would be one way to save about 9 bucks.
> http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?11850
>
> I'm not looking for anything fancy, like the CreativAir setup. I want a
> 3-wire (+12v, load 1, load 2) drop-in replacement. I wouldn't mind
> soldering it up myself but I don't have the expertise to "design" one.
> Will
> probably go with another B&C SSF-1, but would love to be able to
> solder-it-myself and/or save some bucks. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D (834 hours)
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris & Kellie Hand" <ckhand(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died |
Additional data:
Trico lists the EL13A-2 flasher (B&C's SSF-1 if I read the part numbers
correctly) as the one recommended for alternating head lamps with a service
life of 400 hours:
http://www.tricoproducts.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=289&location_id=129&go=preset210trico
Trico lists the EL13A-1 flasher (the one at the midway link in Dan's email)
as a 500 hour service life and lists the emergency flasher as recommended
application but doesn't mention head lamps as a recommended application:
http://www.tricoproducts.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=288&location_id=129&go=preset209trico
I did find the EL13A-2 flasher on the midway web site for $12.99 and they
list "wig-wag headlights" as the application :
http://www.midwayautosupply.com/searchby.asp?txtSearch=TRI-EL13A-2
Chris Hand
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris & Kellie Hand" <ckhand(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died
>
>
> Dan,
> I installed mine (first one - zero hours) a couple weeks ago and wrote
> down
> the part identification info before gluing that side of the flasher to the
> mounting plate. Haven't tried any auto parts stores to see if they carry
> a
> replacement, but it was identified as:
>
> TRIDON EL13 A-2
> ALT/FLASHER
> 150 W/channel, +12 V
> SAE J105
> 1254C2
>
>
> Chris Hand
> RV-6A, N731CK (reserved)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:10 AM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died
>
>
>>
>>
>> After 834 hobbs hours of nearly continuous use, my B&C SSF-1 wig-wag
>> flasher
>> died. I can either plunk down another $22 for a drop-in replacement, or
>> I
>> could explore cheaper options.
>>
>> I found a Trident auto flasher that *looks* pretty much identical, but
>> they
>> say it has a "Design Life" of 500 hours. If it's the same as the SSF-1,
>> that would be one way to save about 9 bucks.
>> http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?11850
>>
>> I'm not looking for anything fancy, like the CreativAir setup. I want a
>> 3-wire (+12v, load 1, load 2) drop-in replacement. I wouldn't mind
>> soldering it up myself but I don't have the expertise to "design" one.
>> Will
>> probably go with another B&C SSF-1, but would love to be able to
>> solder-it-myself and/or save some bucks. Any ideas?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> )_( Dan
>> RV-7 N714D (834 hours)
>> http://www.rvproject.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | SL70 Transponder with serial encoding from Rocky Mountain |
Encoder
Hi to al!
I'm doing a bench shakedown on my Panel prior to fit in Aircraft.
Results not too bad but SL70 Transponder encoding from Rocky Mountain
Encoder not functioning.
With the SL70 it's possible to view altitude as live function so I should
have that facility at testing and operation on the bench.
I've set both at serial and 1200 baud, checked all the serial connections
(2!) so I guess I have a configuration problem.
Any input from this worldwide council of experts greatly appreciated.
Regards
Gerry
Europa XS
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SL70 Transponder with serial encoding from Rocky |
Mountain Encoder
Hi!
> I'm doing a bench shakedown on my Panel prior to fit in Aircraft.
> Results not too bad but SL70 Transponder encoding from Rocky Mountain
> Encoder not functioning.
I may have had an oversight!
It appears that I may have assumed a serial output for Transponder and
that's not possible but may need to revisit and go parallel.
Still interested in any comments on this combination.
Regards
Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
> 3/10/2006
>
> Hello Fellow Builders, I bring the below web site to your attention:
>
> http://www.emachineshop.com/
>
> I have no connection with or first hand knowledge of this company. I am,
> however, absolutely astounded that they would list a capability to make
> aircraft parts.
>
> Most companies, unless they are OEM's, PMA's, hold an STC, or cater to the
> amateur built community ask you to leave as soon as you reveal that an
> aircraft is involved in your inquiries.
>
> OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SL70 Transponder with serial encoding from Rocky |
Mountain Encoder
The SL70 is designed to accept both Serial and grey code inputs and provide
serial output. I have the install manual at the hangar - but I think I have
a pdf copy too... it provides wiring and settings.
I have mine set up for grey in from my NARCO encoder and serial out to my
GX60.
I'll agree that it's a config issue - my first step would be baud rates -
1200 seems low......
I'll send what I find,
Ralph Capen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerry Holland" <gholland@gemini-resourcing.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 6:04 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SL70 Transponder with serial encoding from Rocky
Mountain Encoder
> <gholland@gemini-resourcing.com>
>
> Hi to al!
>
> I'm doing a bench shakedown on my Panel prior to fit in Aircraft.
> Results not too bad but SL70 Transponder encoding from Rocky Mountain
> Encoder not functioning.
>
> With the SL70 it's possible to view altitude as live function so I should
> have that facility at testing and operation on the bench.
>
> I've set both at serial and 1200 baud, checked all the serial connections
> (2!) so I guess I have a configuration problem.
>
> Any input from this worldwide council of experts greatly appreciated.
>
> Regards
>
> Gerry
>
> Europa XS
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Dan -
How many did it take to get the 5 (pound?) discount.
This kit looks good. With the relay, I'd like to wire it to a small
speaker or light on the annunciator panel.
I'm in the process of wiring up the dual mag checker. I wish all kits were
as well documented and "instructed" as this one, and a bargain too.
Thanks,
John
> I did a group buy with a bunch of local RV builders, so we took
> advantage of the 5+ discount and the int'l shipping ended up being
> essentially
> negligible.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | SL70 Transponder with serial encoding from Rocky Mountain |
Encoder
Ralph Hi!
Thanks for the response.
> The SL70 is designed to accept both Serial and grey code inputs and provide
> serial output. I have the install manual at the hangar - but I think I have
> a pdf copy too... it provides wiring and settings.
You are right. Just dont think the Micro Encoder supplies Transponder data
other than parallel. It does supply serial data to most GPS. I may well be
wrong. The Altitude data string is available in all of the predefined
protocols. I'm just wiring it up now using the grey output. It's snowy and
wet here so it's working out!
> I'll agree that it's a config issue - my first step would be baud rates -
> 1200 seems low......
>
> I'll send what I find.
Many thanks. Dont waste any build or flying time!
Regards
Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightspeed Ignition with Key switch |
Dean,
Another builder, Dave Sundberg passed this on to me previously, and
I wired mine this way and it indeed works fine. It does seem a bit
like black magic, but seeing as it works fine I won't be complaining. ;)
------
The P-Lead from the mag goes to the L-Terminal on the Switch with the
shield connected to the GRN terminal on the mag and not connected to
anything on the switch end.
The P-Lead from the LS (Pin 1) goes to the R-Terminal on the
switch and the shield (Pin 9) goes to the GRN-Terminal in the
center of the switch.
Do not connect the jumper from the R-Term to the GRN-Terminal next
to it.
Do not connect the center GRN-Terminal on the switch to aircraft
ground. Both ignitions are grounded out with the switch in the OFF position.
Dave had been flying and it was working for him. I have now been
flying and am done with my flyoff and it's worked great for me too.
I had previously spent time hooking mine up and ohming things
out and was confused as heck. I also was confused in that the P-Lead
on the mag is seemingly shorted to ground even with the wire
disconnected, so I couldn't easily tell that it would be grounded
by the switch. If you hook it all up, except for the mag P-Lead,
you can indeed see that they ground the way their supposed to.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote:
>
>
> I've been looking at my drawings one more time before actually wiring this
> up. I have one (Slick) magneto and one Lightspeed Plasma II+. I was hoping
> to hook them BOTH to the standard aircraft key switch (A-510-2) but in
> looking at it again, I'm not sure that will work. If I connect the Plasma
> II+ at the key switch ground (GRD) and the "R" terminal I have a usable
> connection. If however, I want to also connect the Left Magneto P-lead to
> the switch then I have to connect the center conductor of the magneto P-lead
> to the "L" terminal and the "P" Lead shield to the switch "GRD" connection.
> The only problem with this is that the other end of the magneto P-lead
> shield will have to be grounded out at the magneto case which, I believe,
> would effectively ground it to the airframe and battery negative potential.
> According to a note on Lightspeed's connection diagram, the Plasma II+ key
> switch wiring can NOT be connected to airframe ground.
>
> So...it appears to me that I cannot connect both the Plasma II+ and a
> magneto P-lead to the same key switch!? For you folks running this same set
> up, do I understand this correctly or am I missing something? Thanks.
>
> Dean Psiropoulos
> RV-6A N197DM
> Autocad psychosis
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William" <wschertz(at)ispwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter problem analysis |
Something else to check -- When the engine is hot, is it harder to turn over
by hand at the prop? The reason I ask is that a local builder had this
behavior, and it turned out that there was an internal engine problem that
made the engine bind when hot. Just something to check.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Michael" <jm(at)10squaredcorp.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:43 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter problem analysis
>
>
> I am trying to troubleshoot a problem with the starter on my Stinson.
> The problem seems to occur only when the engine is hot. When the
> engine is cold the engine turns over fine. When hot, the starter acts
> like it's trying to turn and after multiple attempts it will finally
> start turning over. I've read that this is a low voltage condition
> and I've taken some voltage readings with the engine cold:
>
> Prior to charging battery: 12.38 VDC at the terminals
> After charging battery: 12.87 VDC at the terminals
> Battery voltage at terminals while cranking: 10.4 VDC
> Voltage across starter while cranking: 9.8 VDC
> Voltage across master and starter solenoid while cranking: < 1 VDC
>
> The ground connection consists of a cable from the battery to the
> engine mount and from another engine mount point to the engine via a
> ground strap.
>
> I plan to take a meter and test leads with me to get some readings the
> next time the problem arises, but do these readings indicate a
> problem with the starter or battery?
>
> I hope this is the right forum for this question, if not please
> forgive the intrusion.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | CO kit / was B&C SSF-1 finally died |
Dan, this looks like a nice kit. Do you have any info about the CO
concentration threshold at which this kit triggers the alarm? Did any
calibration instructions come with the kit?
Rumen
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from Dan Checkoway; Date: 07:13 PM 3/11/2006
-0800)
> Which CO kit did you build? Where to get it? How much?
http://www.electronic-kits-and-projects.com/4055.htm
I did a group buy with a bunch of local RV builders, so we took advantage of
the 5+ discount and the int'l shipping ended up being essentially
negligible.
Soldered it up and tested it with my truck exhaust, acetone vapor, etc. It
seems to work as advertised, although I have to admit I haven't even
installed it in the plane yet! (doh!)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter problem analysis |
William wrote:
>
> Something else to check -- When the engine is hot, is it harder to turn over
> by hand at the prop? The reason I ask is that a local builder had this
> behavior, and it turned out that there was an internal engine problem that
> made the engine bind when hot. Just something to check.
That is actually fairly normal. The cylinder walls cool and contract
more rapidly than do the pistons. This reduces clearances and increases
friction. It is worst about 10 minutes after shutdown or just about how
long it takes to put fuel in the airplane at the self-serve pumps.
Regardless, the starter should be able to rotate the engine at full
speed even with this additional load, especially given the voltage
numbers you are seeing. Your battery voltage is not sagging considerably
under this load nor do your voltage drops appear unreasonable between
battery and starter.
What you did not mention is the voltage drop on the ground side of
things. Place your voltmeter's positive lead on the starter case and
negative on the negative pole of the battery and crank. You may be
surprised at how much ground resistance you have. Check and fix that
first before getting a new starter.
OTOH, if you do all of this and find minimal losses, you are probably
going to have to face the need for a new or rebuilt starter.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Prather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SL70 Transponder with serial encoding from Rocky |
Mountain Encoder
Gerry,
Do you know if there's any warmup time on the Encoder? Many standalone
encoders take 5min or so from the time power is applied before anything
comes out of the data lines. The sensing device will respond to changes
in temperature and baro pressure, so I believe the encoder has a
regulated heater circuit to control the temp of the sensor. That takes
a little time to warm up and stabilize..
Matt-
Gerry Holland wrote:
>
>Hi to al!
>
>I'm doing a bench shakedown on my Panel prior to fit in Aircraft.
>Results not too bad but SL70 Transponder encoding from Rocky Mountain
>Encoder not functioning.
>
>With the SL70 it's possible to view altitude as live function so I should
>have that facility at testing and operation on the bench.
>
>I've set both at serial and 1200 baud, checked all the serial connections
>(2!) so I guess I have a configuration problem.
>
>Any input from this worldwide council of experts greatly appreciated.
>
>Regards
>
>Gerry
>
>Europa XS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SL70 Transponder with serial encoding from Rocky |
Mountain Encoder
Hi all. Panic over.
SL70 working well with Rocky Mountain Encoder in Gray Format.
One last glitch...... Strobe (pin 15) and Com (Pin 14) needed connecting
together for handshake to work.
The SL70 seems a neat unit with Altitude readout and an Altitude hold
function for notification of loss or gain of altitude. Can drive a warning
lamp if required.
Many thanks to Ralph Capen for a near instant response!
Another task closer to first flight. Not long now.
Regards
Gerry in UK
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annunciator panel LED brightness |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
I used Mark's schematic, including the zener dimming, and it works great.
I needed more lights and wanted larger ones, so I used NKK lamps and made
an annunciator to fit in the stack.
http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder-panel/Panel_Test_4
Cheers,
John
> If you folks are really interested in a cheap (pretty sure I have less
> than $30 in the thing), very effective annunciator panel, this has
> worked out very well for me- after almost 300 hours I haven't missed a
> single "annunciation" and couldn't be happier with the reliability,
> brightness, or anything else for that matter of this very basic,
> functional and easy to build project:
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SL70 Transponder with serial encoding from Rocky |
Mountain Encoder
Matt Hi!
Thanks for the tip on warm up time. In this case it didn't seem to happen or
be needed.
It really works well now. Reading some small print found the requirement for
strobe to be connected to com!
Just a few bugs to go.
Thanks again
Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net> |
| Subject: | Annunciator Panel LED Brightness |
I'm fooling around with designing an annunciator panel with LEDs and bought a variety
from DigiKey to test. I found the following LEDs to be bright enough for
daylight use:
DigiKey # 404-1145-ND (Red)
Here's a photo of a green one:
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Stanley/Web%20Photo/MU04-5102.jpg
Here's tech data (in the bottom section):
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T061/1750.pdf
As you can see, each light is a rectangle containing three LEDs behind a heavily
frosted panel. Although each of the three LEDs is rated at only 32 mcd (for
the red), they are plenty bright to illuminate the annunciator label.
By the way, here's my favorite for a panel flood light LED:
Photo: http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Lite-on/Web%20Photos/LTL-4238,LTL33BCWK5AT.jpg
Here's the data:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T061/1756.pdf
It's listed at 4,800 mcd, and really throws out the light! The "white" ones are
more expensive, so I didn't test that many different ones, so there are others
that are likely better. But these will do the job for me.
Thanks again to all those who helped me learn about LEDs, resistors, and zener
diodes. It was fun to learn new things that I can put to use!
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy (still wiring and wishing the weather was good enough to start painting)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris & Kellie Hand" <ckhand(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died |
> The Tridon EL13A-2 *appears* to be the same or similar type of
> electro-mechanical flasher relay as the SSF-1 but at a lower price. Yes,
> I'm a cheapskate. The difference in price is half an hour of flying.
> Maybe
> the Tridon will die, and maybe it will not last as long as the B&C. We'll
> see!
I believe it's exactly the same flasher unit as the SSF-1 since the one I
got from B&C had "TRIDON EL13 A-2" stamped on the side I glued to the
mounting plate (can't see the writing anymore so can't reconfirm). I had
the same thoughts that I might be able to buy a replacement part if needed
at the local auto parts store, so wrote the part info on my wiring sketches
when I installed it.
Anybody have a B&C unit they haven't obscured the part numbers on? Would be
good to have a second check that I read/recorded the right numbers/letters.
Regards,
Chris Hand
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
Cc:
| Subject: | Radio Noise-Starter switch?? |
From: Jim Lagowski
> I have some random radio noise I can't explain. It ranges from
> sharp"cracks' to static to every thing in between. Sometimes it is normal
> quiet. I have had the radio checked, and it's fine. I don't believe it is
> alternator related.
>
> I have a recollection of past correspondence re. the ACS starter switch as
> being a radio related problem. True?? Ant tips out there??
>
> Yours for warmer weather flying.
>
> Thanks in advance--Jim Lagowski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Michael <jm(at)10squaredcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter problem analysis |
Today I took it out for a trip around the pattern and checked it hot.
The battery voltage across the terminals while cranking was now
9.4-9.8 VDC versus about 1 VDC yesterday cold. I can turn the prop by
hand, so I don't think heat related binding of the engine is at
fault. I recharged the battery to provide the same starting point as
yesterday and checked the cranking voltage again and it's still below
10 VDC. I can measure 1 ohm resistance in the ground between the neg.
battery terminal and the engine ground strap. Starter casing was 130F
after shutdown.
Thanks for the input so far. I've been scratching my head trying to
think of a heat-related cause and trying to apply a systematic
approach to troubleshooting this problem so the correct part can be
replaced.
Jim
On Sunday 12 March 2006 17:03, Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>
> William wrote:
> >
> >
> > Something else to check -- When the engine is hot, is it harder
> > to turn over by hand at the prop? The reason I ask is that a
> > local builder had this behavior, and it turned out that there was
> > an internal engine problem that made the engine bind when hot.
> > Just something to check.
>
> That is actually fairly normal. The cylinder walls cool and
> contract more rapidly than do the pistons. This reduces clearances
> and increases friction. It is worst about 10 minutes after shutdown
> or just about how long it takes to put fuel in the airplane at the
> self-serve pumps.
>
> Regardless, the starter should be able to rotate the engine at full
> speed even with this additional load, especially given the voltage
> numbers you are seeing. Your battery voltage is not sagging
> considerably under this load nor do your voltage drops appear
> unreasonable between battery and starter.
>
> What you did not mention is the voltage drop on the ground side of
> things. Place your voltmeter's positive lead on the starter case
> and negative on the negative pole of the battery and crank. You may
> be surprised at how much ground resistance you have. Check and fix
> that first before getting a new starter.
>
> OTOH, if you do all of this and find minimal losses, you are
> probably going to have to face the need for a new or rebuilt
> starter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | Starter problem analysis |
Yesterday the guys on Car Talk, a National Public Radio program about cars,
discussed a similar problem with an aging Volvo, if I remember correctly.
The car would start fine cold but would hardly turn over hot. The verdict
was that the starter was wearing out and its resistance increased as it got
hotter. They said he could put ice on the starter to cool it off, or get a
new starter.
All for what it's worth, of course.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Michael
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter problem analysis
Today I took it out for a trip around the pattern and checked it hot.
The battery voltage across the terminals while cranking was now
9.4-9.8 VDC versus about 1 VDC yesterday cold. I can turn the prop by
hand, so I don't think heat related binding of the engine is at
fault. I recharged the battery to provide the same starting point as
yesterday and checked the cranking voltage again and it's still below
10 VDC. I can measure 1 ohm resistance in the ground between the neg.
battery terminal and the engine ground strap. Starter casing was 130F
after shutdown.
Thanks for the input so far. I've been scratching my head trying to
think of a heat-related cause and trying to apply a systematic
approach to troubleshooting this problem so the correct part can be
replaced.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Battery for ultralight aircraft |
I'm finishing an ultralight with a Zenoah G25 2 stroke engine - about
22 hp. It came with a 12V electric starting system. When asked what
kind of battery was recommended, the distributor replied "oh, just
about any 3 or 4 amp." I assume that's amp hours, and bought a
sealed lead acid 3.5 A/H at the local electronics shop.
It doesn't turn the engine over. When freshly charged, voltage drops
to 4.3 while cranking. So, I figure I need another.
The configuration of the airframe makes it desirable for one
dimension - length or width, depending on how you look at it - to be
about 2". So I was looking at this one http://tinyurl.com/p3htu
Is there any way to tell if it has a reasonable peak cranking
output? Or, does anyone have a suggestion for another battery in
that size range?
TIA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter problem analysis |
Jim;
The resistance from the battery terminal to the engine ground strap doesn't
tell a lot. What would help, is to measure the voltage drop between the
battery negative post and the casing of the starter itself while cranking.
(not the crankcase or ground strap, but the starter casing) All your
measurements so far sound fine but I haven't seen you measure the ground
path voltage drop yet, which the measurement described above will give you.
This shouldn't be heat related but you never know how expansion of something
may be affecting the tightness of something in the loop. The other telling
number is the voltage between the positive battery post and the main
terminal at the starter while cranking. (again not the cable or lug
connected to the starter but the starter post itself.) These two readings
may give a clue where to look for a fix. The other thing missing from your
readings to date are all the same readings cold. You can then compare hot
and cold readings and see if any one changes dramatically. You might be on
to something however if I interpret correctly what you say below, that where
you previously had < 1 Volt drop you now have ~9.5. This would indicate a
bad connection somewhere between the two points where that voltage was
measured. By the way your measurement points at the battery should be
specifically the post, not the lug or cable connected to it, in case that
connection is part of the problem.
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Michael" <jm(at)10squaredcorp.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter problem analysis
>
> Today I took it out for a trip around the pattern and checked it hot.
> The battery voltage across the terminals while cranking was now
> 9.4-9.8 VDC versus about 1 VDC yesterday cold. I can turn the prop by
> hand, so I don't think heat related binding of the engine is at
> fault. I recharged the battery to provide the same starting point as
> yesterday and checked the cranking voltage again and it's still below
> 10 VDC. I can measure 1 ohm resistance in the ground between the neg.
> battery terminal and the engine ground strap. Starter casing was 130F
> after shutdown.
>
> Thanks for the input so far. I've been scratching my head trying to
> think of a heat-related cause and trying to apply a systematic
> approach to troubleshooting this problem so the correct part can be
> replaced.
>
> Jim
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter problem analysis |
Jim Michael wrote:
> fault. I recharged the battery to provide the same starting point as
> yesterday and checked the cranking voltage again and it's still below
> 10 VDC.
That is not bad. 10V is fine for a cranking load. It doesn't sound like
your battery is bad at all. Is this 10V at the starter or at the battery?
> I can measure 1 ohm resistance in the ground between the neg.
> battery terminal and the engine ground strap. Starter casing was 130F
> after shutdown.
You probably do not have a meter that will measure the ground
resistance. A one ohm resistance in the ground would show up as
virtually no voltage at the starter. It wouldn't even try to crank. In
fact, almost nothing would work right with 1 ohm of resistance between
the engine case and negative terminal of the battery.
The only way you are going to be able to measure the ground resistance
is to measure the voltage drop and know the current or use something
like Bob's micro-ohmmeter attachment to your DVM.
> Thanks for the input so far. I've been scratching my head trying to
> think of a heat-related cause and trying to apply a systematic
> approach to troubleshooting this problem so the correct part can be
> replaced.
I had the same problem in my Comanche not too long ago. It was the
battery. OTOH your battery seems not to have excessive voltage sag under
cranking load.
So please go back and measure your ground loss and/or verify voltage at
the starter (starter solenoid terminal to starter case). If you have 9V
there when the engine is cranking and the starter can barely turn over
the engine, either the engine is so bound up as to be impossible to turn
or your starter is bad.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery for ultralight aircraft |
Richard Riley wrote:
>
> I'm finishing an ultralight with a Zenoah G25 2 stroke engine - about
> 22 hp. It came with a 12V electric starting system. When asked what
> kind of battery was recommended, the distributor replied "oh, just
> about any 3 or 4 amp." I assume that's amp hours, and bought a
> sealed lead acid 3.5 A/H at the local electronics shop.
>
> It doesn't turn the engine over. When freshly charged, voltage drops
> to 4.3 while cranking. So, I figure I need another.
You do need something larger. Make sure the one you get is an AGM
battery rather than a gel-cell. AGMs have much lower internal resistance
and will not exhibit the voltage drop when heavily loaded like a
gel-cell will.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery for ultralight aircraft |
Richard Riley wrote:
> The configuration of the airframe makes it desirable for one
> dimension - length or width, depending on how you look at it - to be
> about 2". So I was looking at this one http://tinyurl.com/p3htu
Ah, I see that it is an AGM battery. It may work. It is still pretty
small tho'.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Michael <jm(at)10squaredcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter problem analysis |
Typo on the battery voltage: 9.4-9.8 hot and 10.4 cold at the
terminals during cranking. I'll get those other voltage measurements
next time I'm at the airport. Thanks again for the suggestions.
Jim
On Sunday 12 March 2006 22:49, Bob McCallum wrote:
>
>
> Jim;
>
> The resistance from the battery terminal to the engine ground strap
> doesn't tell a lot. What would help, is to measure the voltage drop
> between the battery negative post and the casing of the starter
> itself while cranking. (not the crankcase or ground strap, but the
> starter casing) All your measurements so far sound fine but I
> haven't seen you measure the ground path voltage drop yet, which
> the measurement described above will give you. This shouldn't be
> heat related but you never know how expansion of something may be
> affecting the tightness of something in the loop. The other telling
> number is the voltage between the positive battery post and the
> main terminal at the starter while cranking. (again not the cable
> or lug connected to the starter but the starter post itself.) These
> two readings may give a clue where to look for a fix. The other
> thing missing from your readings to date are all the same readings
> cold. You can then compare hot and cold readings and see if any one
> changes dramatically. You might be on to something however if I
> interpret correctly what you say below, that where you previously
> had < 1 Volt drop you now have ~9.5. This would indicate a bad
> connection somewhere between the two points where that voltage was
> measured. By the way your measurement points at the battery should
> be specifically the post, not the lug or cable connected to it, in
> case that connection is part of the problem.
>
> Bob McC
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Michael" <jm(at)10squaredcorp.com>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 12:43 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter problem analysis
>
>
>
>
> > Today I took it out for a trip around the pattern and checked it
> > hot. The battery voltage across the terminals while cranking was
> > now 9.4-9.8 VDC versus about 1 VDC yesterday cold. I can turn the
> > prop by hand, so I don't think heat related binding of the engine
> > is at fault. I recharged the battery to provide the same starting
> > point as yesterday and checked the cranking voltage again and
> > it's still below 10 VDC. I can measure 1 ohm resistance in the
> > ground between the neg. battery terminal and the engine ground
> > strap. Starter casing was 130F after shutdown.
> >
> > Thanks for the input so far. I've been scratching my head trying
> > to think of a heat-related cause and trying to apply a systematic
> > approach to troubleshooting this problem so the correct part can
> > be replaced.
> >
> > Jim
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry2DT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | SL70 transponder & Grand Rapids EFIS |
Listers,
I'm installing a UPSAT SL70 transponder with RS232 input from GRT EFIS. The
SL70 wants a two-wire shielded cable with shield attached to chassis of both.
One inner wire is "RxD serial input", while the other is "RS232 serial ground
out" The EFIS doesn't appear to have a pin for this, or should I just tie
into a common ground. This doesn't look right since the SL70 is grounded
anyway. I am puzzled....
Jerry Cochran
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chaztuna(at)adelphia.net |
| Subject: | Re: CO kit / was B&C SSF-1 finally died |
Cc: rd2(at)evenlink.com
Rumen,
I did a group buy of these as well last year. I've built 3 of them. The sensitivity
is adjustable. There is an adjustable potentiometer on the board. There
is an LED for a visual warning as well as a relay. You can set the relay up to
trigger an audio alarm, or any other alarm you want.
Charlie Kuss
---- rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote:
>
> Dan, this looks like a nice kit. Do you have any info about the CO
> concentration threshold at which this kit triggers the alarm? Did any
> calibration instructions come with the kit?
> Rumen
>
> _____________________Original message __________________________
> (received from Dan Checkoway; Date: 07:13 PM 3/11/2006
>
> > Which CO kit did you build? Where to get it? How much?
>
> http://www.electronic-kits-and-projects.com/4055.htm
>
> I did a group buy with a bunch of local RV builders, so we took advantage of
> the 5+ discount and the int'l shipping ended up being essentially
> negligible.
>
> Soldered it up and tested it with my truck exhaust, acetone vapor, etc. It
> seems to work as advertised, although I have to admit I haven't even
> installed it in the plane yet! (doh!)
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annunciator panel LED brightness |
Very nice panel John.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator panel LED brightness
>
>
> I used Mark's schematic, including the zener dimming, and it works great.
> I needed more lights and wanted larger ones, so I used NKK lamps and made
> an annunciator to fit in the stack.
>
> http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder-panel/Panel_Test_4
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
>
>
>> If you folks are really interested in a cheap (pretty sure I have less
>> than $30 in the thing), very effective annunciator panel, this has
>> worked out very well for me- after almost 300 hours I haven't missed a
>> single "annunciation" and couldn't be happier with the reliability,
>> brightness, or anything else for that matter of this very basic,
>> functional and easy to build project:
>
>
> --
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Michael <jm(at)10squaredcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter problem analysis |
On Sunday 12 March 2006 23:19, Brian Lloyd wrote:
> That is not bad. 10V is fine for a cranking load. It doesn't sound
> like your battery is bad at all. Is this 10V at the starter or at
> the battery?
I was gettting 10.4 at the battery and 9.8 at the starter cold. I got
9.8 at the battery hot.
> I had the same problem in my Comanche not too long ago. It was the
> battery. OTOH your battery seems not to have excessive voltage sag
> under cranking load.
>
> So please go back and measure your ground loss and/or verify
> voltage at the starter (starter solenoid terminal to starter case).
> If you have 9V there when the engine is cranking and the starter
> can barely turn over the engine, either the engine is so bound up
> as to be impossible to turn or your starter is bad.
The fact that it was cranking cold seemed to rule out the bad ground,
but I'll take a look at that before having the starter replaced.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery for ultralight aircraft |
>
>
>Richard Riley wrote:
> >
> > I'm finishing an ultralight with a Zenoah G25 2 stroke engine - about
> > 22 hp. It came with a 12V electric starting system. When asked what
> > kind of battery was recommended, the distributor replied "oh, just
> > about any 3 or 4 amp." I assume that's amp hours, and bought a
> > sealed lead acid 3.5 A/H at the local electronics shop.
> >
> > It doesn't turn the engine over. When freshly charged, voltage drops
> > to 4.3 while cranking. So, I figure I need another.
>
>You do need something larger. Make sure the one you get is an AGM
>battery rather than a gel-cell. AGMs have much lower internal resistance
>and will not exhibit the voltage drop when heavily loaded like a
>gel-cell will.
Another thing to look for is real TERMINALS that you can
bolt wires to. The skinny tabs for fast-on terminals are
not suitable for cranking currents. Unfortunately, folks
who built smaller batteries capable of cranking engines
generally don't install anything larger than fast-on tabs.
The smallest batteries I'm aware of that have treaded
terminals are:
http://www.bandc.biz/BC103-1.pdf
and the Odyssey PC310/PC535 described at:
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US-ODY-RS-002_0805.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "richard titsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
What triggers the "Nukes Armed" indicator???
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Morris "BigD"
Here's an example of how to fill up 24 slots:
http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel.gif
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery for ultralight aircraft |
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>Richard Riley wrote:
>
>
>
>>The configuration of the airframe makes it desirable for one
>>dimension - length or width, depending on how you look at it - to be
>>about 2". So I was looking at this one http://tinyurl.com/p3htu
>>
>>
>
>Ah, I see that it is an AGM battery. It may work. It is still pretty
>small tho'.
>
>
>
What kind of terminals? The smaller batteries usually have 1/4" spade
lugs. If this one does, it might have a bit of a problem delivering
enough current through the terminals even if the battery's internal
impedance is low enough to supply starting current.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roger Cole <rcole927(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Electronic fuel gauges |
Does anyone have a source for electronic fuel gauges?
---
Roger Cole
Murphy Elite 709E
Starting to skin the first wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitchell Faatz <mitch(at)skybound.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic fuel gauges |
Roger Cole wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a source for electronic fuel gauges?
> ---
> Roger Cole
>
Yes, I never liked the look of the Electronics International fuel
gauges, and was *very* happy to see Aerospace Logic come out with what I
think is a much nicer looking gauge:
http://www.aerospacelogic.com
Their basic resistive model (0-300 Ohm) is the FL-100-R, the capactive
model (0-5v) is FL-100-5. They also have gauges for EGT, CHT, Manifold
pressure, clocks, volt & ammeter, etc. Nice stuff, and the people are
SUPER nice and supportive on the phone! Their fuel gauge also will
start blinking at 10% for a built in "low fuel" indicator. That value
is rounded up, so 21-29 gallon tanks would blink at 3 gallons, for instance.
Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finish Kit Auburn, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SL70 transponder & Grand Rapids EFIS |
Jerry2DT(at)aol.com wrote:
> I'm installing a UPSAT SL70 transponder with RS232 input from GRT EFIS. The
> SL70 wants a two-wire shielded cable with shield attached to chassis of both.
Attach the shield at only one end. It is just a shield, not a ground or
return line.
> One inner wire is "RxD serial input", while the other is "RS232 serial ground
> out" The EFIS doesn't appear to have a pin for this, or should I just tie
> into a common ground. This doesn't look right since the SL70 is grounded
> anyway. I am puzzled....
Tie the "RS-232 ground out" on the SL70 to ground on the EFIS. Connect
the RS-232 data terminal on the SL70 to the RS-232 out on the EFIS. It
may be that the RS-232 input on the SL70 has its own floating ground
(perhaps opto-isolated) in order to eliminate ground loops.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Parts Source? |
>
> > 3/10/2006
> >
> > Hello Fellow Builders, I bring the below web site to your attention:
> >
> > http://www.emachineshop.com/
> >
> > I have no connection with or first hand knowledge of this company. I am,
> > however, absolutely astounded that they would list a capability to make
> > aircraft parts.
> >
> > Most companies, unless they are OEM's, PMA's, hold an STC, or cater to the
> > amateur built community ask you to leave as soon as you reveal that an
> > aircraft is involved in your inquiries.
> >
> > OC
Interesting find! Thank you. I've got some drawings I'll
send for quotations.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Marketing research question |
A post from gmcjetpilot on IR Alternators...
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of richard
titsworth
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 8:31 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question
What triggers the "Nukes Armed" indicator???
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Morris "BigD"
Here's an example of how to fill up 24 slots:
http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel.gif
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SL70 Transponder with serial encoding from Rocky |
Mountain Encoder
Gerry,
the rocky mountains encoder is a paralle encoder NOT a seriall one.
br Werner
Gerry Holland wrote:
>
>Hi to al!
>
>I'm doing a bench shakedown on my Panel prior to fit in Aircraft.
>Results not too bad but SL70 Transponder encoding from Rocky Mountain
>Encoder not functioning.
>
>With the SL70 it's possible to view altitude as live function so I should
>have that facility at testing and operation on the bench.
>
>I've set both at serial and 1200 baud, checked all the serial connections
>(2!) so I guess I have a configuration problem.
>
>Any input from this worldwide council of experts greatly appreciated.
>
>Regards
>
>Gerry
>
>Europa XS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Annunciator panel LED brightness |
John,
I sent Mark an email on his web site for the dwg drawing but did not receive
an answer.
Would you send me the file?
Peter
RV9A fuse
> I used Mark's schematic, including the zener dimming, and it works great.
> I needed more lights and wanted larger ones, so I used NKK lamps and made
> an annunciator to fit in the stack.
>
> http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder-panel/Panel_Test_4
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | CO kit / was B&C SSF-1 finally died |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
If anyone needs these units calibrated I have access to an industrial CO
monitor that is regularly calibrated. I would be happy to calibrate one
or more of these units (especially if someone could get me a discount on
one..ha ha..:)..).
If there are a buch of you in one locale I could do one and the rest of
you could calibrate to that...Should be a simple jobe once I have the
meter though so I am happy to do them.
My shop propane heater gives CO in about the right range so it should be
easy for me.
Let me know
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 4:01 PM
Cc: rd2(at)evenlink.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CO kit / was B&C SSF-1 finally died
Rumen,
I did a group buy of these as well last year. I've built 3 of them. The
sensitivity is adjustable. There is an adjustable potentiometer on the
board. There is an LED for a visual warning as well as a relay. You can
set the relay up to trigger an audio alarm, or any other alarm you want.
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Anyone hear of a CO monitor for mixture? |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
I have a turbo charged Rotax 914.
Rotax reccomends if you change the intake track, you must make sure that
it does not effect the area of higher pressure impact air used to enrich
during operations above 108% power.
The way they want you to check is to monitor 4 cylinders for Carbon
Monoxide content.
Has anyone used one?
Have one?
Knows where to get one?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Annunciator panel LED brightness |
There really is no need for a fancy electronic circuit to dim LEDs.
If you simply put a "ballast" resistor in series to limit the current,
you can dim them with the rest of your panel lights.
Typically, LEDs draw 20 mA for full brightness. (Look on the spec
sheet to be sure) For a red LED in a 13.8 volt system to calculate the
resistor value:
R = (13.8-2)/0.020 = 590 ohms. You would pick a 620 ohm resistor
because 590 ohms is not a standard value.
A 1/2 watt resistor would be prudent, but a 1/4 watt might do
W=(13.8-2)*0.02 = 0.24 W
For a 30 mA high-power white LED the calculations would be:
R=(13.8-3.4)/0.030=347 Ohms. You would pick 360 ohms because it is a
standard value.
A 1/2 watt resistor would be required W=(13.8-3.4)*0.03 = 0.35 W
If you reduce the voltage supplied to the LED and ballast resistor,
it will dim a lot like an ordinary incandescent light. You can do this
with an ordinary rheostat. You can be a bit more clever and do it with
an LM317.
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/LM317-D.PDF
This is a $0.35 part from www.digikey.com. You don't need the
capacitors shown in the circuit for this application.
You can be VERY clever and put a photo transistor in place of R1 to
make the light dim automatically.
Bill Dube'
Peter Laurence wrote:
>
>John,
>
>I sent Mark an email on his web site for the dwg drawing but did not receive
>an answer.
>
>Would you send me the file?
>
>Peter
>RV9A fuse
>
>
>
>>I used Mark's schematic, including the zener dimming, and it works great.
>>I needed more lights and wanted larger ones, so I used NKK lamps and made
>>an annunciator to fit in the stack.
>>
>>http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder-panel/Panel_Test_4
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anyone hear of a CO monitor for mixture? |
rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US a crit :
>
>I have a turbo charged Rotax 914.
>
>Rotax reccomends if you change the intake track, you must make sure that
>it does not effect the area of higher pressure impact air used to enrich
>during operations above 108% power.
>
>The way they want you to check is to monitor 4 cylinders for Carbon
>Monoxide content.
>
>Has anyone used one?
>Have one?
>Knows where to get one?
>
>
Ron,
Have a look at the Gastester made by Gunson. There are two models.
http://eastwood.resultspage.com/search?p=Q&ts=custom&w=gastester&submit.x=39&submit.y=13&submit=Search
You need to make a threaded adaptor, with a small piece of stainless
steel tubing, and screw it into each of the the pipes in sequence, take
off at 115 % power with a "flight engineer" operating the Gastester.
Find the pipe with the lowest CO, then turn the pressure pickup a few
degrees, take off again, then determine the correct position by trial
and error etc.
The French Rotax importer never did the test.
Our kit manufacturer, Dyn'Aero did not do it with their intercooled
prototype, and said they are not intending to.
Please keep us posted.
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net> |
| Subject: | Resistor Instead of Fusible Link? |
Greetings,
I've been planning to use fusible links as Bob suggests to protect skinny wires
leading to warning lights. For example, I'll have a "Starter Engaged" warning
light connected to the starter relay and need something to protect the 22 AWG
wire that goes to the warning light.
However, since the warning light will be an LED, and since the LED requires a dropping
resistor, can I use the dropping resistor instead of the fusible link?
I would install the resistor at the same location I would have installed the
fusible link.
The resistors I would use have solid wire leads on both ends. How would I connect
it to a starter relay without encountering problems from the vibration work-hardening
the solid lead and causing it to break? A couple of layer of heat
shrink? Put it a few inches downstream of the relay and secure it to nearby
wires?
Thanks,
Dennis Johnson
Legacy (nearly finished with my wire book)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Thank YOU, no OV worries with I-VR ever! (inexpensively!) |
Here is a great deal, for all those worried about OV with internal
voltage regulators, worry no more.
Thank goodness, some one finally did it!!!!
Yea, at $375, complete kit w/ OV protection that BLOWS everything
away. Yea! I am so happy :-)
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=39043&posted=1#post39043
B&C better lower their price to get realistic, in my humble opinion.
B&C L-60 & LRC3C: $823 (boss mount), $913 (case mount).
That is $448 and $538 MORE! than Van's new alternator!!!!!
That's a price factor of TIMES 2.19 and 2.34, well over double
between B&C and the plane power unit.
I always dis-liked B&C price gouge for the "case" mount. Why?
Does a bracket cost $80 more? However this a free market and
what the market will bear. God Bless America. (Please send any
anti-American comments to me directly. We are taking about two
American companies and was not meant to exclude or as a slight
against the other countries or the world.)
I am not against B&C and think they make a great product, but
I they have priced themselves out of the market. This is my opinion
based on my personal judgment. Feel free to disagree and tell me
why you think B&C products are not over priced.
Here are some other related links of interest:
http://www.plane-power.com/Bit3.htm
http://www.plane-power.com/images/Brochure%20EXP%2060.pdf
http://www.plane-power.com/Bit1.htm
http://www.plane-power.com/Bit2.htm
I think the plane power answers the problem. With the lower price
thru Van's aircraft this is a clear winner. Am I wrong?
Is there some technical reason that a $375 alternator with solid
OV protection, simple installation is not a better choice than a
E-VR B&C alternator/regulator at over twice the cost?
As a side note Plane Power recommends cooling air. I also
would suggest connecting the warning light.
Cheers George lol
(I know what you are thinking, shame shame.)
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Resistor Instead of Fusible Link? |
>
>
>Greetings,
>
>I've been planning to use fusible links as Bob suggests to protect skinny
>wires leading to warning lights. For example, I'll have a "Starter
>Engaged" warning light connected to the starter relay and need something
>to protect the 22 AWG wire that goes to the warning light.
>
>However, since the warning light will be an LED, and since the LED
>requires a dropping resistor, can I use the dropping resistor instead of
>the fusible link? I would install the resistor at the same location I
>would have installed the fusible link.
>The resistors I would use have solid wire leads on both ends. How would I
>connect it to a starter relay without encountering problems from the
>vibration work-hardening the solid lead and causing it to break? A couple
>of layer of heat shrink? Put it a few inches downstream of the relay and
>secure it to nearby wires?
Good thinking. It's commonly done . . .
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/In_Line_Resistor/In_Line_Resistor_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/In_Line_Resistor/In_Line_Resistor_2.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/In_Line_Resistor/In_Line_Resistor_3.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/In_Line_Resistor/In_Line_Resistor_4.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/In_Line_Resistor/In_Line_Resistor_5.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/In_Line_Resistor/In_Line_Resistor_6.jpg
Note that LEDs are relatively fragile devices with respect
to short reverse voltage transients. Suggest you add a 1N4001
in parallel with an LED that's connected directly to high
power, somewhat inductive gizmo like a starter motor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Thank YOU, no OV worries with I-VR ever! (inexpensively!) |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
People will pay what the product is worth to them.. If a truly better
value comes along, the market will change. Ain't America great!
If B&C has been gouging, it seems surprising that an equivalent but
significantly less expensive alternative has not made it to market sooner.
Matt-
>
> Here is a great deal, for all those worried about OV with internal
> voltage regulators, worry no more.
>
> Thank goodness, some one finally did it!!!!
>
> Yea, at $375, complete kit w/ OV protection that BLOWS everything
> away. Yea! I am so happy :-)
>
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=39043&posted=1#post39043
>
> B&C better lower their price to get realistic, in my humble opinion.
>
> B&C L-60 & LRC3C: $823 (boss mount), $913 (case mount).
> That is $448 and $538 MORE! than Van's new alternator!!!!!
>
> That's a price factor of TIMES 2.19 and 2.34, well over double
> between B&C and the plane power unit.
>
> I always dis-liked B&C price gouge for the "case" mount. Why?
> Does a bracket cost $80 more? However this a free market and
> what the market will bear. God Bless America. (Please send any
> anti-American comments to me directly. We are taking about two
> American companies and was not meant to exclude or as a slight
> against the other countries or the world.)
>
> I am not against B&C and think they make a great product, but
> I they have priced themselves out of the market. This is my opinion
> based on my personal judgment. Feel free to disagree and tell me why
> you think B&C products are not over priced.
>
> Here are some other related links of interest:
> http://www.plane-power.com/Bit3.htm
> http://www.plane-power.com/images/Brochure%20EXP%2060.pdf
> http://www.plane-power.com/Bit1.htm
> http://www.plane-power.com/Bit2.htm
>
> I think the plane power answers the problem. With the lower price
> thru Van's aircraft this is a clear winner. Am I wrong?
>
> Is there some technical reason that a $375 alternator with solid OV
> protection, simple installation is not a better choice than a E-VR
> B&C alternator/regulator at over twice the cost?
>
> As a side note Plane Power recommends cooling air. I also
> would suggest connecting the warning light.
>
>
> Cheers George lol
> (I know what you are thinking, shame shame.)
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Noise-Starter switch?? |
>
>
>From: Jim Lagowski
>
> > I have some random radio noise I can't explain. It ranges from
> > sharp"cracks' to static to every thing in between. Sometimes it is normal
> > quiet. I have had the radio checked, and it's fine. I don't believe it is
> > alternator related.
> >
> > I have a recollection of past correspondence re. the ACS starter switch as
> > being a radio related problem. True?? Ant tips out there??
> >
> > Yours for warmer weather flying.
The only hassle I'm aware of concerning the ACS/Bendix OFF/L/R/BOTH/START
switch has to do with internal contact erosion due to the
collapse of the magnetic field in a modern high-force starter
contactor or two stage starter contactor. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
I can't imagine how this switch would have any radio
noise issues.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McMahon" <blackoaks(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Watsonville Seminar |
>
> There are only a couple days left to sign up for Bob's Watsonville,
> CA Seminar in April. He needs 20 and there are not enough yet! I need the
> information so I hope a few more of us sign up so he won't have to cancel
> the seminar! Purely selfish promotion on my part!!!! Any takers? Here is
> the link http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Watsonville.html
>
> --
> John McMahon
>
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roberto Giusti <roby(at)mail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Thank YOU, no OV worries with I-VR ever! (inexpensively!) |
I was considering a plane power alternator, but they seemed to be a
little expensive at $569.00
I had decided to buy one from Aircraft spruce at $510.00
but the I saw this new alternator on Van's site at $375.00
I called Van's to get some specs and they told me it was the Plane Power
AL12-EI60/B.
Great price!!!
....And the fans turn the right way too!
Regards,
Roberto Giusti
(RV-8 in Italy)
>
> Here is a great deal, for all those worried about OV with internal
> voltage regulators, worry no more.
>
> Thank goodness, some one finally did it!!!!
>
> Yea, at $375, complete kit w/ OV protection that BLOWS everything
> away. Yea! I am so happy :-)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CO kit / was B&C SSF-1 finally died |
Figaro manufactured a number of gas sensors. One of the most common ones
was optimized for hydrocarbons and has a description much like this
unit. It was somewhat sensitive to CO. However there was also an
identical looking sensor that was optimized for CO that might be more
suitable for your purposes. Just a thought, I have no idea what sensor
this kit uses.
Ken
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
>If anyone needs these units calibrated I have access to an industrial CO
>monitor that is regularly calibrated. I would be happy to calibrate one
>or more of these units (especially if someone could get me a discount on
>one..ha ha..:)..).
>
>If there are a buch of you in one locale I could do one and the rest of
>you could calibrate to that...Should be a simple jobe once I have the
>meter though so I am happy to do them.
>
>My shop propane heater gives CO in about the right range so it should be
>easy for me.
>
>Let me know
>
>Frank
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Avionics Dealer References |
Hi everyone,
I am in the process of finalizing my avionics order and I would like some
input on the various dealers out there. Is there anyone that has provided
particularly good or bad service? Obviously, I would like to keep my costs
to a minimum, but I'm reluctant to deal with companies that have bad
reputations. I'm planning on installing the items myself, so a full service
shop is not required. I've listed the items I plan to install below in case
that makes a difference on recommendations.
GRT EFIS
Dynon D100 EFIS
Garmin GMA-340
Garmin GNS-430
Garmin SL-30
Garmin GTX-327
Advanced Flight Systems AOA Pro
Digiflight IIVSGV
Also, If you are a dealer please feel free to email me a quote at
gvouga(at)gmail.com.
Thanks,
Greg Vouga
RV-7A
Raleigh, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Shielded fat wires . . . |
> >Comments/Questions: Do you have #6 cable that is shielded? I need this for
> >the Alternator charge cable.
> >
> >Thank You,
>Chuck,
>
>There is no value added by shielding any part of the alternator
>system. I know the Cessna drawings and perhaps others call for
>it but it was never demonstrated to be beneficial when it was added
>(about 1968) and only for reasons of certified tradition does it
>persist today.
>
>Bob . . .
>Robert,
>
>Thank you for the information. This explains why I can not find this
>shielded wire anywhere!!!
>
>Chuck
Large shielded wire is generally a special order thing.
FAT wires typically carry large currents with a potential
for magnetic coupling of noise - something shield has
no ability to mitigate. On the other hand, high voltage,
fast edge signals tend to be conducted on smaller wires
and signals vulnerable to such antagonists are also carried
on smaller wires. Hence, you can find miles of shielded 20
and 22 AWG wires in warehouses.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Shannon <rshannon(at)cruzcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Watsonville Seminar |
Hey folks, I'm also on the seminar sign up list. There must be more west
coasters who would benefit from a little electrical brain food. (?) Hope
to meet you there.
Ron
Murphy Rebel 254R
John McMahon wrote:
>
>>There are only a couple days left to sign up for Bob's Watsonville,
>>CA Seminar in April. He needs 20 and there are not enough yet! I need the
>>information so I hope a few more of us sign up so he won't have to cancel
>>the seminar! Purely selfish promotion on my part!!!! Any takers? Here is
>>the link http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Watsonville.html
>>
>>--
>>John McMahon
>>
>
>
> Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Thank YOU, no OV worries with I-VR ever! (inexpensively!) |
Matt Prather wrote:
>
> People will pay what the product is worth to them.. If a truly better
> value comes along, the market will change. Ain't America great!
>
> If B&C has been gouging, it seems surprising that an equivalent but
> significantly less expensive alternative has not made it to market sooner.
Not only that but after examining several alternatives I had come to the
conclusion that the B&C alternator exhibited much better quality and
quality control than any of the alternators available for aircraft
engines. I was planning to put a B&C alternator in my CJ6A even though I
knew it was much more expensive just because, if I am going to spend
$120,000 on an airplane, I couldn't see compromising on a component that
was a critical part of the engine and the aircraft systems.
I have never had a problem with an IR alternator. Bob's crowbar circuit
seemed just fine to me. If I needed to activate the crowbar, there was
already something else seriously wrong and it would protect the rest of
the aircraft's systems. I have rebuilt alternators in the field before.
(I carry all manner of spare alternator parts on my boat and rebuild
while underway if need be. They just aren't that complex.)
So this whole IR/ER thing seems pretty silly to me other than with an ER
alternator, I have complete control over the alternator's behavior
through the external regulator. If I want a three-stage charging system
with temperature compensation, something that is clearly overkill in an
aircraft, I can do it with an external regulator. I can't with an
internal regulator.
But IR alternators are simpler to wire and have no external regulator to
have find a home for elsewhere on the airframe.
I just don't see why this is such a hotly contested subject.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Avionics Dealer References |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
So your going IFR....I like many others used John Stark. He sold me the
trays for the 430, audio panel and transponder complete with a very well
made wiring harness.
For $11k's worth of equipment it seemed a whole lot better idea to NOT
be burning the warranty on the bench..I will simply buy the units and
slide them in...when I need them, Audio panel and transponder prior to
first flight and GNS 430 towards the end of phase 1.
May need to adjust the in/out of the radio trays to get them all
aligned. I mounted the angle brackets on the panels with #6 screws (and
made a spare set with no tray holes drilled just in case) so I can
remove and adjust them later as needed.
Frank RV 7a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Vouga
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 6:02 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Dealer References
-->
Hi everyone,
I am in the process of finalizing my avionics order and I would like
some input on the various dealers out there. Is there anyone that has
provided particularly good or bad service? Obviously, I would like to
keep my costs to a minimum, but I'm reluctant to deal with companies
that have bad reputations. I'm planning on installing the items myself,
so a full service shop is not required. I've listed the items I plan to
install below in case that makes a difference on recommendations.
GRT EFIS
Dynon D100 EFIS
Garmin GMA-340
Garmin GNS-430
Garmin SL-30
Garmin GTX-327
Advanced Flight Systems AOA Pro
Digiflight IIVSGV
Also, If you are a dealer please feel free to email me a quote at
gvouga(at)gmail.com.
Thanks,
Greg Vouga
RV-7A
Raleigh, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Avionics Dealer References |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Greg -
Give John Stark at Stark Avionics a call (706-321-1008)
( john(at)starkavionics.com). We used him and were very satisfied and happy
with the response, quality of the harnesses and especially the prices. His
website at:
http://www.starkavionics.com/
Cheers,
John Schroeder
Greg Vouga wrote:
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am in the process of finalizing my avionics order and I would like some
> input on the various dealers out there. Is there anyone that has
> provided
> particularly good or bad service? Obviously, I would like to keep my
> costs
> to a minimum, but I'm reluctant to deal with companies that have bad
> reputations. I'm planning on installing the items myself, so a full
> service
> shop is not required. I've listed the items I plan to install below in
> case
> that makes a difference on recommendations.
>
> GRT EFIS
> Dynon D100 EFIS
> Garmin GMA-340
> Garmin GNS-430
> Garmin SL-30
> Garmin GTX-327
> Advanced Flight Systems AOA Pro
> Digiflight IIVSGV
>
> Also, If you are a dealer please feel free to email me a quote at
> gvouga(at)gmail.com.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg Vouga
> RV-7A
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
Just a note to remind folks that the 'Connection is a dynamic,
living work that depends on and makes good use of feedback
from readers.
As important errors are brought to my attention, errata pages
are published and linked at:
http://aeroelectric.com/whatsnew.html
For everything but the Z-figures, individual pages are offered.
When a Z-figure gets fixed, the entire Appendix Z is revised
and published. Holders of the 'Connection are encouraged to
keep an eye on the What's New page and take advantage of the
corrections made available.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: p-mag wiring |
Erich,
Sorry to take so long to get back on this. Your questions prompted a review
of some p-mag issues in Figures Z-13/8 and Z-33 along with the text in
the notes which I thought I'd fixed some time ago. In looking over the
originals this morning, I found several things that needed fixing so
I've updated Appendix Z to Revision F and posted the new document at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11F.pdf
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Bob . . .
>
>
>Bob:
>
>My level of electrical knowledge is pretty limited, but is it possible that
>Figure Z-33 in the 'Connection showing wiring for P-mags has an error?
>
>Z-33 has the p-mag wires labeled by color (grn, red orn, and blk). Power
>appears to be supplied to the p-mag from the bat bus through the "orn" wire
>when the 2-10 switch is in the up position.
>
>Comparing to the e-magair manual - see pgs 4 and 15 in
>
>http://www.emagair.com/Manual%20L113v8.pdf
>
>the manual seems to indicate that +13.8V power would be supplied by the red
>wire (postion 5 on the control plug), and that the "orn" wire (position 4
>on the plug) is the P-lead to ground (NOT power). The blk and grn wires
>are for ground and tach respectively, consistent with Z-33.
>
>Did I catch you, or am I just too hung up on wire colors?
>
>While I got you cornered (?), I am unclear on how the additional switch you
>suggest for ign maintenance would be used. When closed, it appears to
>supply power from the bat bus to the p-mags while the two ignition switches
>are in the off position. Okay, but what does this do for me?
>
>still learning...
>
>Erich Weaver
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Battery contactors and diodes . . . |
>
>Comments/Questions: Bob,
>I'm using the Z16. I have a White-Rodgers 70-111226 5 Coil 12vDC cont
>battery relay. Will this work? I guess the real question is, does the
>White-Rodgers relay have the spike supression diode that is shown in the
>schematic? Am I making sense?
Very few contactors come with the diode installed.
The S702-1 starter contactor from B&C is one example.
The S701 series (Stancor/White-Rogers) does not.
Photos on my website like:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-2.jpg
and . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-1.jpg
Illustrate how the diodes are installed externally for
various applications. Yes, the contactor you've cited
is suitable to the task of battery master relay in
Figure z-16
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | OT Translation question |
Hi Bob and all,
A fellow builders in my area is having problems translating the
expression "runner-log-branch", in the following paragraph from G.Braly
on TC engine mixture problems.
>
> > < > the runner log-branch induction systems. The pattern is consistently
> > observed because it is a result of the inherent design of the runner
> > log-branch induction system. >>
>
I know what induction runners are, but I'm at loss accurately rendering
the expression.
Anyone care to put this into clearer words for us non naturally English
speakers ?
The following may be similar to the text my buddy is translating :
http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/Vibration/Vibnet.pdf
Any input appreciated,
Thanks in advance
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OT Translation question |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Gilles,
Most (all?) of the big bore Continentals (TCM) have the induction system
split into two halves - one for each side of the engine. Each half
essentially consists of a single large aluminum tube oriented to run near
the intake port on each cylinder. This is the 'log.' There's an opening
in the 'log' immediately under the each cylinder's port. Individual tubes
connect from each cylinder port to its respective opening on the 'log'.
These are the 'branches'. In reality, the 'runner-log-branch' is formed
in segments from aluminum T's. The center of each T connects to the
cylinder port. The sides of each T connects to the adjacent cylinder on
each side (or to a tube that goes to the carburetor or the crossover).
A picture is worth 1k words:
http://a1aero.com/files/DSCN0662.JPG
The 'log' is connected together by the orange hoses in the picture.
Matt-
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> Hi Bob and all,
>
> A fellow builders in my area is having problems translating the
> expression "runner-log-branch", in the following paragraph from G.Braly
> on TC engine mixture problems.
>
> >
> > > < the runner log-branch induction systems. The pattern is
> consistently observed because it is a result of the inherent design
> of the runner log-branch induction system. >>
> >
>
>
> I know what induction runners are, but I'm at loss accurately rendering
> the expression.
> Anyone care to put this into clearer words for us non naturally English
> speakers ?
>
> The following may be similar to the text my buddy is translating :
>
> http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/Vibration/Vibnet.pdf
>
> Any input appreciated,
> Thanks in advance
>
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
> Grenoble, France
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OT Translation question |
Gilles Thesee wrote:
>
> Hi Bob and all,
>
> A fellow builders in my area is having problems translating the
> expression "runner-log-branch", in the following paragraph from G.Braly
> on TC engine mixture problems.
>
> >
> > > < > > the runner log-branch induction systems. The pattern is consistently
> > > observed because it is a result of the inherent design of the runner
> > > log-branch induction system. >>
> >
>
>
> I know what induction runners are, but I'm at loss accurately rendering
> the expression.
> Anyone care to put this into clearer words for us non naturally English
> speakers ?
The "runner log" is somewhat like the trunk of a tree. It is larger in
diameter and straight. The actual induction tubes that go to each
cylinder "branch" off the "log" just like the branches of a tree. The
name is intended to convey a picture of a wood log with branches coming
off of it.
This is used to describe the older, non-tuned induction system used on
TCM engines. The problem is that not every cylinder receives the same
amount of air and fuel which results in differences in power output and
mixture at each cylinder.
Newer engines have a tuned induction system that does a better job of
getting air to each cylinder. Each cylinder receives (almost) the same
amount of air and the injection system ensures that each cylinder
receives the same amount of fuel. The whole idea behind GAMI's custom
injection nozzles is to match the fuel flow to the airflow at each
cylinder, thus ensuring that each cylinder receives *exactly* the same
fuel-air mixture. This then makes lean-of-peak operation possible.
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak(at)lloyd.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OT Translation question |
Matt, Kelly, Brian,
Thanks a lot for your explanations and picture.
Things are much clearer now. So it really was a wooden log...I was not
so far, after all ;-)
Thanks again,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
Listers,
Anyone have experience with this product?
http://www.customdynamics.com/kisan-battery-charger.htm
Is it any good?
Stan Sutterfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com> |
Can someone help me with determining the gauge of some cable I have please.
#1. 1666 / .12mm I assume this means 1666 strands of .12mm each. (the wire
bundle is 1/4 inch in DIA)
#2. 630 / .12mm. I assume this means 630 strands of .12mm each. (wire bundle
is 3/16 in DIA)
It is very flexible and easy to work with.
It was bought from a auto electrician a couple of years ago.
I am hoping the larger one is 2 or 4 gauge.
If this stuff is not big enough and I have to go to the welding supply place
for my cable how do I determine the gauge of their cable, I don't think it
is marked in gauges.
Thanks.
Chris Byrne
Sydney
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
Tim Olson wrote:
> One of the players had an AC supply that says 5V@1A, and the
> other says 5V@2A, so I would have thought the 7805 had a
> fighting chance, but I guess that's with a heatsink or something.
Yes. If you look around you can find 12V-in-5V-out switching supplies.
That is what you really want.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
>
> Can someone help me with determining the gauge of some cable I have please.
> ...
Hi Chris,
Perhaps this link will help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
Make sure you put a flame to some of the wire to make
sure it does not have any nasty characteristics.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vision287" <vision287(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
Hello Stan,
I have no experience with the Kisan battery charger system.
I have a Deltran Corp 4 Bank Battery Tender Charging Station for my boat
batteries, lawnmower, and Harley. Mine does not have the voltmeter /
ammeter / temp gauge built-in. I choose this manufacturer because their
literature says you can charge AGM (absorbed glass matte), sealed
maintenance free and flooded batteries.
http://batterytender.com/
Sincerely,
Mark A. Naig
<>
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp
Listers,
Anyone have experience with this product?
http://www.customdynamics.com/kisan-battery-charger.htm
Is it any good?
Stan Sutterfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
Hi Tim
I do agree with Brian as it sounds like you will probably need several
7805's and outlets to use them. Many folks opt for cigarette lighters
and a 12 volt adapter if available for entertainment devices. Those
adapters are likely linear regulators.
7805 devices are linear regulators so drawing an amp through one
requires it to dissipate 1 amp times the voltage drop. 14 volts to 5
volts is 9 volts times one amp or 9 watts. Twice that for 2 amps etc. So
you definitely need a good heatsink. An aluminum airframe has lots of
heatsink available. The TO-3 package will usually handle more current
than the TO-220 parts but they are harder to mount. I would not
recommend feeding 5 volts to a conventional cigarette lighter outlet
though as sooner or later someone will plug in something that wants 12
volts. AFAIK all the 78xx packages have overheat protection and will
(most of the time) shut off if overheated. They will also sometimes do
strange things if you don't use the recommended capacitors with them. My
vague recollection is 1 amp or so from a TO-220 part, 3 amps from a
TO-3, and 5 amps from a larger part (LM350?).
Ken
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
>
>>One of the players had an AC supply that says 5V@1A, and the
>>other says 5V@2A, so I would have thought the 7805 had a
>>fighting chance, but I guess that's with a heatsink or something.
>>
>>
>
>Yes. If you look around you can find 12V-in-5V-out switching supplies.
>That is what you really want.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics Dealer References |
Thanks to all who responded. It seems that Stark Avionics, SteinAir, and
Affordable Panels all have great reputations within the group. I called
Stark a month or so ago requesting a quote and spoke to John directly. He
was very helpful on the phone and seemed to have very competitive prices. I
have not checked out the other two guys yet, but I plan on giving them a
call before I make my final decision in a couple weeks.
Thanks Again,
Greg
RV-7A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
>
>Listers,
>Anyone have experience with this product?
>http://www.customdynamics.com/kisan-battery-charger.htm
>Is it any good?
Without having one in hand to test against its marketing
hype any degree of 'goodness' cannot be assigned.
Something to consider in the selection and acquisition
of battery chargers:
The majority of us want to use our airplanes just like
we use our cars and lawnmowers. Pull it out of parking,
use it, put it away. All machines have requirements for
operation (lubrication, fuel, functionality of components
like ignition and carburetors) along with some nice but
not necessary activities like keeping it clean, touching
up the rust spots, etc.
When you move past the pull-it-out-use-it-put-it-away
activities, it's useful to consider additions to cost-
of-ownership for the way in which one invests $time$ on
that piece of hardware.
Batteries: There's been a ton of discussion on the List
and elsewhere about the finer points of selecting, purchasing,
and using batteries along with recommendations for tools
(chargers, cap testers, load testers) and system integration
(regulators, temp compensation, charge current monitoring, etc).
If one reads the fine print on any battery manufacturer's
data sheets . . . he learns about the more esoteric points
of achieving maximum performance from the battery. Do a study
of the functionality of components of the charging system
and we get another set of gee-whiz features purported to
optimize functionality of the component (and convince you
that investing your $time$ on that component is a good
thing to do). Finally, we can read the various maintenance
manuals for lawnmowers, automobiles and airplanes. Here we
we hope to find a system integrator's attempt to pick and choose
from the various fine points of selection, operation and
maintenance of the battery for a well defined repeatable
experiment: Maximize utility of battery while minimizing
$time$ to own it.
Without a doubt, the vast majority of gee-whiz features
for all the products will deliver what they promise. The
questions for us as systems integrators and users of those
products should consider, "What amount of $time$ should
I expend in the ownership of the battery and tools to
use/maintain it such that the cost of ownership ($time per
flight hour) is minimized?"
Here's where the rubber hits the road. The aviation
community is not unique in that there's a ton of information
but supportive and derogatory about any/all of the
components being considered. Here's how my thoughts on
batteries have evolved over the years:
When I started writing for the OBAM aviation community
in 1987, flooded batteries were king. OBAM aircraft
carried a huge variety of products ranging from motor-cycle
batteries to qualified aircraft batteries having a huge
variability in $time$ of ownership. B&C was just starting
to investigate various vent-regulated products including
gell cells from Sonnenschein to the earliest RG jelly-roll
cells from Gates. Some showed promise, others (Gates) were
discarded. Over the intervening 20 years, the vent-regulated
(sealed) battery products have matured to the point where
there are few "gotchas" in battery selection and many
capable products to choose from.
Once you drag your battery purchase home and stick it
in the airplane, the obvious lowest expenditure of
$time$ to own it is, "pull it out, use it, and put it
away until it dies." Works fine for day-vfr-no-ClassA/B
operation. Once we begin to depend on the battery for
more than engine cranking and alternator stabilization,
the need to consider quantity of stored energy surfaces.
Okay, how much $time$ is necessary to maintain a battery
at or above minimum performance levels? If one purchases
a premium battery, the owner/operator is compelled to
consider extra-ordinary tools and charging system design
features selected to optimize battery life. So on top
of $time$ to acquire the premium battery, we add
$time$ to acquire system features and maintenance
tools on top of which we pile more $time$ to utilize
those tools in the quest for getting our money's worth
out of the battery.
A few years ago, I began suggesting that you purchase the
least expensive battery you can find and replace it every
annual. Hmmmm . . . no special charging system considerations,
no maintenance tools, just drag it out, use it, put it away.
If one flies 100 hrs/year, battery reserve can be as low
as 40 cents per hour plus perhaps one $hour$ per year to
acquire new, change out old, and dispose of old battery into
the recycle stream.
Now, put a $100 battery in the airplane and you're
definitely more interested in KNOWING when it's time to
replace it. Now you spend $time$ to acquire the tools
and use them with some notion of getting the most from
your battery purchase dollar.
Will a $175 battery charger help you do this? Probably
not. When you taxi up to the parking place after a flight
the battery should be charged. The most functionality you
can expect from a $high$ charger is to "maintain" the
battery. Useful only when your next flight is months
away. A $40 wall-wart maintainer will do just
fine. Of course, if one goes months between flights, your
average duration of flights needs to be exceedingly long
to drive your battery reserve price down toward 40-cents/hr.
Okay, how about capacity? Hmmmm . . . real capacity testers
can be as inexpensive (and loosely calibrated) as the
scheme described in the battery chapter of the 'Connection.
Or, one might opt for very sophisticated but inexpensive
tools like the device at:
http://westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm
Okay, assuming you have a capacity measurement system of
some kind, now you factor in the $time$ for acquiring
the test equipment and $time$ required to periodically
exercise the equipment with the notion of driving down
battery costs while in fact, cost of battery ownership is
driven upward.
I have a raft of chargers here in my shop, most of which
are wall-wart maintainers that keep my instrumentation
batteries ready to go. I have various samples of super
chargers all of which claim to correctly massage batteries
based on manufacturing technology. Some claim to "desulphate"
as well . . . a feature I've yet to quantify for improving
on cost of ownership.
Super-whizzy battery chargers can strut their stuff only
when used to recharge deeply discharged batteries like
for golf carts and trolling motors. We put our car,
lawnmower, and airplanes away with the batteries at or
near fully charged. I'll suggest that if one should worry
about battery charging techniques and tools, we should
concentrate on what's in the vehicle, not what's plugged into
the hangar wall.
The study document on the MC33092 regulator chip is nearly
complete . . . in that document, we'll explore some of the
finer points of on-board battery maintenance systems along
with an illustration of how one sorts marketing hype from
features that reduce $time$/hr for owning, operating and
maintaining the system.
Getting back to your original question Stan:
I have three or four chargers in the shop that I purchased
to explore their claims and see if they had value in
helping me lower the cost of ownership for batteries.
I can tell you that my oldest battery charger is 30+
year old device with a low (10A) setting and a boost
(50A) setting. No voltage regulation of any kind.
I've used it perhaps 30 times in 30 years
to get a vehicle running when I inadvertently ran the
battery down. It's the crudest of charging systems with
the simplest of demands for functionality. Even my
super-whizzy chargers won't help me crank an engine . . .
not enough output. I can hook up one of supper-whizzy
chargers and come back in an hour . . . but the beat
up old dog of a charger keeps me from being late for work.
I'll suggest that anyone's characterization of the
charger you cited as "good" will have little to do with
your ability to realize $175 worth of utility. It's
sort of like buying an electron microscope to help you
tweeze splinters from a finger. I'll suggest that
a product like . . .
http://www.batterygiant.com/BatteryByProductCode/BMC-12612A
or
http://www.batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_3
will yield a much greater return on investment and
lower the cost of ownership for batteries used in your
airplane. Anything you do beyond this takes a lot
of carefully controlled studies to determine how much
the most optimized schedule of battery pampering will
extend the service life of your battery. It's almost
a sure bet that the total $time$ needed to squeeze the
last service-hour out of any battery will produce
battery reserve costs far greater than 40 cents per
flight hour.
Bob . . .
-------------------------------------------
< Sometimes the best way to drive a nail >
< is with a hammer. >
< R. Nuckolls >
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
>
>...
> One of the players had an AC supply that says 5V@1A, and the
> other says 5V@2A, so I would have thought the 7805 had a
> fighting chance, but I guess that's with a heatsink or something.
Just for grins I did a search on Google. Seems that Mouser has several
that might work for you. Mouser is having a blow-out on discontinued C&D
switching DC-DC converters. Prices for a complete power supply capable
of delivering 25A at 5V are in the $10 range. There are also other
manufacturers.
Give the time and effort needed to build something vs. just buy a
high-quality DC-DC converter, I think the answer is pretty clearly "buy".
Give Mouser a call and tell them you need a 12V-in 5V-out supply that
can be isolated or non-isolated. You should be able to find something at
under $30.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
>
> So I guess your answer is you don't have experience with it and you don't know
if it's any good.
Well, Bob did not say that. What Bob said is he couldn't comment on that
device because he has no experience with it. This is just plain, honest
fact. What he did say is that it is cheaper to just replace the battery
every year than to buy a fancy charger or buy a special regulator to
better care for the battery. From a reliability and monetary point of
view, I suspect he is right.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
>
>
>
> So I guess your answer is you don't have experience with it and you
> don't know if it's any good. Sorry Bob, not trying to give you a hard
> time but a book chapter on a subject that you have already given your
> views on is a bit much in my opinion. But it is your forum.
. . . yes, many things I've written recently have
been written many times before in years past. But would you
care to make a guess as to how many of the 1300+ folks on the
List have researched the archives on this topic?
Suppose I had written, "The $175 charger isn't worth the money
you'll have to spend to acquire it." Would you have been
curious as to why I would offer such advice?
> However I do have experience with this device. I used one on my Harley
> for about a year or two to keep it charged between the periods you can
> ride a air cooled bike in Texas. It worked fine until one day it smoked
> (my technical term for stopped functioning correctly). Don't know why,
> didn't really care, and I replaced it with a Battery Tender JR. YMMV.
You seem to have missed the point. You DO have experience
with it and reported that it's "just fine" . . .
The question to be answered is, "did you get $175 in
value from it?" You now report that the $35 Battery
Tender Jr has replaced it. I have three or four
Battery Tenders that work "just fine" for me . . .
and in my analytical response I've suggested that you'll
report the BTJr to be "just fine" too.
I wasn't for a minute suggesting that the supper-whizzy
charger didn't deliver on features offered. I WAS suggesting
that anecdotal responses are not very useful in making
a purchasing decision. Perhaps after some term of experience
with the Battery Tender Jr you can report your findings as
to perceptions of value-received-for-dollars-spent between
the two products. I asked the question but I have no
first-hand experience upon which to answer. As a user of both
products, your first-hand findings will be a useful addition
to my analytical approach. For the price of one supper-whizzy
charger you could buy 4 Battery Tenders. What's your take
on return on investment between the two choices?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
1. Why is there a 7A fuse between the main power distribution bus and the E-bus?
The loads on the E bus are all fused.
2. The schematic shows alternate feeds for an ECU and fuel pump. I will have dual
Light speed ignition, dual fuel pumps, and one EFI. To accomodate this, do
I tap into the upstream legs supplying the dual diode feeds and add another dual
diode feed, each, for the 2nd pump and ignition?
3. I want to have a dual feed, from Main & Engine batt. buses, w/circuit breaker
to the EFI. Any elegant ideas to do this?
4. The E bus has an alternate feed path off the Main batt bus. Is it overkill to
have a feed path from the Engine batt bus?
5. What is the "Auto" function of the Eng/Bat/Auto switch?
6. The fuse for the voltmeter is 1A at the Main Batt bus and 3A at the Eng Batt
bus. Is this a typo or is there a reason for the difference?
Thanks,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
Tim Olson wrote:
>
> Well, the ground loop in my case, I think it more like this:
>
> (I called PS Engineering to verify)
> The power is at airframe ground potential. The Audio panel also
> grounds the barrels and shields to the same potential. But now,
> if you use a DC-DC converter that's isolated, sure it puts out
> 5V between the 2 wires, but that voltage can often be many volts
> above source input from a ground potential viewpoint. So
> You might have ground = +8V and Power = +13V. Yes, it's 5V, but
> the grounds are not equal.
If the power supply is isolated then that means that neither output wire
is referenced to the input ground. In fact, there is no DC electrical
path from input to output at all. In that case it is completely safe to
tie the -5V lead to ground giving you ground an +5V relative to ground.
That will work just fine.
I have experienced audio problems with portable audio devices plugged
into audio panels when powered by the aircraft's electrical system and
power input was NOT isolated. Problems went away when the device was
operated off its own battery.
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak(at)lloyd.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Landing Light Circuit? |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
I read a post a while back about using an inductor in Bobs Landing Light
circuit.
Do you have a link to that circuit?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Capacitor with solder on connectors? |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
My partner purchased a 22,000 mF computer grade capacitor with a 35 volt
rating and 105C temperature rating for our Rotax 914.
It has small solder on connectors, it looks like it is intended to be
soldered to a circuit board. In addition the connectors look like they are
tin plated brass, and use an aluminium rivet to fasten the connector to
the inside of the capacitor.
If I strain relieve wires is this an acceptable capacitor to use?
My partner figured getting the higher temperature rating of 105C compared
to 85C, and a 35 volt rating over 25V was better.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Just a note that I still sell a lot of #4 and #2 Copper Clad Aluminum wire to builders.
A free sample on email request.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22479#22479
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Capacitor with solder on connectors? |
>
>My partner purchased a 22,000 mF computer grade capacitor with a 35 volt
>rating and 105C temperature rating for our Rotax 914.
>
>It has small solder on connectors, it looks like it is intended to be
>soldered to a circuit board. In addition the connectors look like they are
>tin plated brass, and use an aluminium rivet to fasten the connector to
>the inside of the capacitor.
>
>If I strain relieve wires is this an acceptable capacitor to use?
Give it a try. It can't do anything worse than break
a terminal off making your system get noisy. You may
not even perceive the increase in noise from the cockpit.
>My partner figured getting the higher temperature rating of 105C compared
>to 85C, and a 35 volt rating over 25V was better.
Not a 'bad' thing to do . . . within bounds. Bigger
and higher is better and will probably increase
reliability. But one would be ill advised to pick
a 450v device for a 14v application.
We recommend the "computer grade" devices for
this application because they're fitted with robust
screw terminals much more convenient for installation.
Further, this style of capacitor is generally rated
for higher ripple currents . . . meaning it runs cooler
under high alternator loading. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Computer_Grade_Cap.jpg
But give the device you have a try. There are no risks
for damage to anything due to the capacitor coming unhooked.
Depending on how your wiring arrangement lends itself to
coming off the capacitor with some soft braided leads . . .
make from short pieces of outer jacket of coax. Cover with
heat shrink and use PIDG terminals or splices to connect
capacitor into the system.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja(at)starpower.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Capacitor with solder on connectors? |
Is it not wise to also put a fuse(or equivalent)protection in series
with the capacitor to handle a possible dead short within the capacitor?
Jim McCulley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>My partner purchased a 22,000 mF computer grade capacitor with a 35 volt
>>rating and 105C temperature rating for our Rotax 914.
>>
>>It has small solder on connectors, it looks like it is intended to be
>>soldered to a circuit board. In addition the connectors look like they are
>>tin plated brass, and use an aluminium rivet to fasten the connector to
>>the inside of the capacitor.
>>
>>If I strain relieve wires is this an acceptable capacitor to use?
>
>
> Give it a try. It can't do anything worse than break
> a terminal off making your system get noisy. You may
> not even perceive the increase in noise from the cockpit.
>
>
>
>>My partner figured getting the higher temperature rating of 105C compared
>>to 85C, and a 35 volt rating over 25V was better.
>
>
> Not a 'bad' thing to do . . . within bounds. Bigger
> and higher is better and will probably increase
> reliability. But one would be ill advised to pick
> a 450v device for a 14v application.
>
> We recommend the "computer grade" devices for
> this application because they're fitted with robust
> screw terminals much more convenient for installation.
> Further, this style of capacitor is generally rated
> for higher ripple currents . . . meaning it runs cooler
> under high alternator loading. See:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Computer_Grade_Cap.jpg
>
> But give the device you have a try. There are no risks
> for damage to anything due to the capacitor coming unhooked.
> Depending on how your wiring arrangement lends itself to
> coming off the capacitor with some soft braided leads . . .
> make from short pieces of outer jacket of coax. Cover with
> heat shrink and use PIDG terminals or splices to connect
> capacitor into the system.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Capacitor with solder on connectors? |
>
>
>Is it not wise to also put a fuse(or equivalent)protection in series
>with the capacitor to handle a possible dead short within the capacitor?
It wouldn't hurt. I've not seen it done recently in the type certificated
world. Electrolytic capacitors tend to die by loosing their ability to
capacitate (there's a word for you) . . . they dry out and simply become
more open circuit than anything else.
However, if a capacitor is poorly chosen and ripple currents in normal
operation exceed the device's ability to withstand the temperature rise,
there is a risk of shorting. So, it's not irrational to consider an
in-line fuseholder. I suspect that a failing capacitor is more likely
to stink and leak at current levels well below dead-short so picking a
suitable fuse is problematic and benefits are difficult to gage.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 questions |
>
>1. Why is there a 7A fuse between the main power distribution bus and the
>E-bus? The loads on the E bus are all fused.
Fuses protect wires. FAA rule of thumb is any wire over 6" is
a candidate for protection. 7A fuse and 16AWG wire sizing
(as are all other fuses and wires) are subject to adjustment
in accordance with appliance choices and bus loadings unique
to your airplane.
Keep in mind that the z-figures are ARCHITECTURE drawings,
they are not instructions on how to wire your airplane.
>2. The schematic shows alternate feeds for an ECU and fuel pump. I will
>have dual Light speed ignition, dual fuel pumps, and one EFI. To
>accomodate this, do I tap into the upstream legs supplying the dual diode
>feeds and add another dual diode feed, each, for the 2nd pump and ignition?
Stand-alone, dual accessories like ign and fuel pumps
get independent protected (fused) supplies through independent
switches. Only single, critical accessories like your
EFI will benefit from the diode isolated, multiple
feed path illustrated.
>3. I want to have a dual feed, from Main & Engine batt. buses, w/circuit
>breaker to the EFI. Any elegant ideas to do this?
Just like Z-19 shows for engine primary switch. Why circuit breakers?
>4. The E bus has an alternate feed path off the Main batt bus. Is it
>overkill to have a feed path from the Engine batt bus?
Depends on how much "killing" you want to do. We generally
draw the line at accommodating single failures for any given
flight. If you feel better about stacking lots of failures
up and devising a means for dealing with all of them, then
whatever additional alternate operating schemes you wish
to devise are in order.
>5. What is the "Auto" function of the Eng/Bat/Auto switch?
See http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf
>6. The fuse for the voltmeter is 1A at the Main Batt bus and 3A at the Eng
>Batt bus. Is this a typo or is there a reason for the difference?
No reason whatsoever. See item (1) above. Make the fuses/wires
match what YOUR airplane needs.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 questions (Expanded) |
Sorry, I didn't accurately interpret your question (3).
For a single device and two power sources, you might
consider two single pole switches (1-3) from each battery
bus coming together at an isolation diode. It's LIKE that
scheme shown in Z-19 for handling single pump and a single
ECU through two pole switches. Since you have only one
accessory, single pole switches and only one diode array
are needed.
>
>1. Why is there a 7A fuse between the main power distribution bus and the
>E-bus? The loads on the E bus are all fused.
Fuses protect wires. FAA rule of thumb is any wire over 6" is
a candidate for protection. 7A fuse and 16AWG wire sizing
(as are all other fuses and wires) are subject to adjustment
in accordance with appliance choices and bus loadings unique
to your airplane.
Keep in mind that the z-figures are ARCHITECTURE drawings,
they are not instructions on how to wire your airplane.
>2. The schematic shows alternate feeds for an ECU and fuel pump. I will
>have dual Light speed ignition, dual fuel pumps, and one EFI. To
>accomodate this, do I tap into the upstream legs supplying the dual diode
>feeds and add another dual diode feed, each, for the 2nd pump and ignition?
Stand-alone, dual accessories like ign and fuel pumps
get independent protected (fused) supplies through independent
switches. Only single, critical accessories like your
EFI will benefit from the diode isolated, multiple
feed path illustrated.
>3. I want to have a dual feed, from Main & Engine batt. buses, w/circuit
>breaker to the EFI. Any elegant ideas to do this?
Just like Z-19 shows for engine primary switch. Why circuit breakers?
>4. The E bus has an alternate feed path off the Main batt bus. Is it
>overkill to have a feed path from the Engine batt bus?
Depends on how much "killing" you want to do. We generally
draw the line at accommodating single failures for any given
flight. If you feel better about stacking lots of failures
up and devising a means for dealing with all of them, then
whatever additional alternate operating schemes you wish
to devise are in order.
>5. What is the "Auto" function of the Eng/Bat/Auto switch?
See http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf
>6. The fuse for the voltmeter is 1A at the Main Batt bus and 3A at the Eng
>Batt bus. Is this a typo or is there a reason for the difference?
No reason whatsoever. See item (1) above. Make the fuses/wires
match what YOUR airplane needs.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SMITHBKN(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Headset and Mic Connections |
I ordered some headset and mic jacks from B&C Specialty. Are the
connections to these supposed to be soldered? If so, is there a standard practice
used
to attach the wire to the solder tabs on the jacks? The solder tabs have a
small diameter hole in them.
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 questions |
>3. I want to have a dual feed, from Main & Engine batt. buses, w/circuit
>breaker to the EFI. Any elegant ideas to do this?
Just like Z-19 shows for engine primary switch. Why circuit breakers?
Bob,
Thanks for your expanded reply on power feed.
I'm electing to CB the EFI because I only have one EFI. The manufacturer argues
that the MTBF of the EFI unit is so many magnitudes greater than the MTBF of
a recip engine, that I should consider a twin before dual EFI's. Also, he argues
that the wiring/switching/sensing of dual units becomes the most likely point
of failure in the system, ergo why have dual units. So because I will only
have one EFI, I thought to myself that if it goes belly up, I would at least like
to have the option of cycling a CB to see if it would re-light.
I still can't let go of the idea of dual EFI's controlled by an On-Off-On switch.
I don't know why the units have to be integrated beyond sharing 4 sensors (throttle,
temp, MP, RPM). But the manufacturer could sell me another unit and
he's telling me, I don't want to do this. So the CB is buying me a tiny bit of
feel-better.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Bertsch <noms1reqd(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | KN-73 and KX-125 |
Hello all,
I adding a KN-73 to provide glideslope for my KX-125, which drives my Century
NSD1000 HSI. I have the KX-125 install manual (thanks to a fellow lister), but
I need the KN-73 install manual. Does anyone have the KN-73 install manual,
or at least the pinout diagram.
Thanks!
Jeff Bertsch
RV-4
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 questions |
John
The advice to not make a primary system less reliable by adding backups
that could compromise it is good advice. However if you want a second
system, an independant second system can certainly be installed that
does not have any common failure points or share items with the primary
system. Ideally neither system should know that the other exists.
For example a backup efi might be a homemade megasquirt unit that shares
no sensors, wiring, injectors, etc. with the primary system. The
throttle sensor can be eliminated since airplane throttles are opened
slowly. The engine temperature sensor could be eliminated because the
engine will already be warm if the backup is needed. So a minimum system
needs a crank or cam sensor for rpm, a MAP sensor which is onboard the
$150. ish megasquirt, an inlet air temp sensor, one or more additional
injectors, an independant power source and a separate power switch. I'm
sure you already have a second fuel pump. A lot of reliability concerns
go away with the ability to just select another system.
Ken
John Burnaby wrote:
>
>
>
>>3. I want to have a dual feed, from Main & Engine batt. buses, w/circuit
>>breaker to the EFI. Any elegant ideas to do this?
>>
>>
>
> Just like Z-19 shows for engine primary switch. Why circuit breakers?
>
>Bob,
>
>Thanks for your expanded reply on power feed.
>
>I'm electing to CB the EFI because I only have one EFI. The manufacturer argues
that the MTBF of the EFI unit is so many magnitudes greater than the MTBF of
a recip engine, that I should consider a twin before dual EFI's. Also, he argues
that the wiring/switching/sensing of dual units becomes the most likely point
of failure in the system, ergo why have dual units. So because I will only
have one EFI, I thought to myself that if it goes belly up, I would at least
like to have the option of cycling a CB to see if it would re-light.
>
>I still can't let go of the idea of dual EFI's controlled by an On-Off-On switch.
I don't know why the units have to be integrated beyond sharing 4 sensors
(throttle, temp, MP, RPM). But the manufacturer could sell me another unit and
he's telling me, I don't want to do this. So the CB is buying me a tiny bit of
feel-better.
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 questions |
Ken,
I'm intrigued. Could one just put a single injector squirting into the intake plenum?
What takes the sensor signals and fires it? Just remember, you're talking
to an electro-phobe.
Thanks,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 questions |
>
> >3. I want to have a dual feed, from Main & Engine batt. buses, w/circuit
> >breaker to the EFI. Any elegant ideas to do this?
>
> Just like Z-19 shows for engine primary switch. Why circuit breakers?
>
>Bob,
>
>Thanks for your expanded reply on power feed.
>
>I'm electing to CB the EFI because I only have one EFI. The manufacturer
>argues that the MTBF of the EFI unit is so many magnitudes greater than
>the MTBF of a recip engine, that I should consider a twin before dual
>EFI's. Also, he argues that the wiring/switching/sensing of dual units
>becomes the most likely point of failure in the system, ergo why have dual
>units. So because I will only have one EFI, I thought to myself that if it
>goes belly up, I would at least like to have the option of cycling a CB to
>see if it would re-light.
>
>I still can't let go of the idea of dual EFI's controlled by an On-Off-On
>switch. I don't know why the units have to be integrated beyond sharing 4
>sensors (throttle, temp, MP, RPM). But the manufacturer could sell me
>another unit and he's telling me, I don't want to do this. So the CB is
>buying me a tiny bit of feel-better.
Understand. Consider this:
You have no personal control over the EFI and no personal
knowledge of its reliability from the engineer's perspective.
There are tons of anecdotal evidence of the devices reliablity
given that millions are giving good service on road. On the
other hand, we know that the VAST majority of engine stoppage
leading to accidents is fuel starvation with the majority of
those cases falling at the feet of poor fuel management on
the part of the pilot.
So in considering two major data points that suggest the
(1) EFI is as close to golden as modern technology can make it
and (2) if the engine does quit, the most likely cause is
your screw-up. What are the things over which you do have
absolute control?
System architecture for starters. Okay, put a dual-feed path
isolation diode as close as practical to the EFI's power
input feeder. Supply two independent sources of power through
independent switching and feeder wires . . . like Z-19 suggests.
Now, is there value in having a circuit breaker versus a fuse?
The dual power and feeder paths are extremely unlikely to suffer
failures on any one flight. If some failure occurs that opens a
breaker, it is most likely to be someplace between the bus
and the input pin to the isolation diode. Anything downstream
of that point is in single-point of failure to the system
and we've already decided that those numbers (See 1 above)
are sufficiently comforting but will call for Plan-C should
the unthinkable happen.
What's the value of having breakers on the feeders? If the
breaker trips due to a fault between bus and diode
that feeder is down and out of service. Resetting the breaker
is useless and distracting when you should be shifting to
Plan-B where the alternate feed path steps in to save the day.
If the fault is downstream of the diode, then your faith
in the goodness of the EFI was over stretched and again,
the presence of a breaker is useless and distracting.
Plan-C is the order of the day - start picking your point
of arrival with the earth. Classical breaker installations
dictate bus bars at the panel which drives up your system's
parts count and increases the numbers of busses just
to satisfy a desire for breakers that have no demonstrable
value. If a breaker opens, likelihood of getting any system
back by resetting a breaker is exceedingly low. It's much
better to simply provide a second, independent path.
You also have absolute control over fuel management and
your earlier description called for dual, independently
powered and fed fuel pumps. So as long as you don't have
some fitting open up and spill all your fuel, the dual
pumps and ignition systems provide as much backup as
you're ever going to use. So, odds are still much greater
that your engine quits for lack of fuel than from any other
cause. Rather than breakers on the EFI lines, I'd vote for
active notification of low fuel will have more feel-better
value than circuit breakers.
Now the odds are stacked much more in your favor and
probability numbers for having a bad day are lower than
for the vast majority of certified single engine airplanes
flying today. Those are good odds indeed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Garforth" <richard(at)hawk.flyer.co.uk> |
Has anyone a copy of the KR 87 install manual that they could Email me please ?
Richard
RV10
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Backup fuel injection (was Z-19) |
John
Sure one injector will do it. That is how a carbuerator and countless
throttle body injected cars run. While not absolutely necessary, with
only one injector, it is usually positioned upstream of the throttle
butterfly for good mixing which was difficult for me so I welded in four
more ports for 4 used port injectors like newer cars do. The airflow is
usually down into a throttle body injected engine which simplifies some
things like fire risk. If you go to the megasquirt site
http://www.megasquirt.info/v22manual/mtabcon.htm
you will find hundreds of pages of info on the megasquirt computer and
how it operates written for the many hundreds of neophytes that have
built and installed it on just about every type of gas engine that
exists. Better than most books on the subject. And several very active
user groups to peruse or ask questions. I wouldn't bet my life on it but
that little computer is totally adequate to control a backup fuel
injection system if you are willing to invest the time to learn about it
and save the cost of purchasing a second off the shelf system. I
understand when someone says the primary system is orders of magnitude
more reliable than the engine but that is not true for all the sensors,
my wiring, or an overheated part that was not installed in the best place.
Just before we take this off list (it is a bit off topic) I totally
agree with Bob's post on fuel starvation. I installed a 2 gallon gravity
fed header tank with a float switch in it to warn if it is ever not full.
Ken
John Burnaby wrote:
>
>Ken,
>
>I'm intrigued. Could one just put a single injector squirting into the intake
plenum? What takes the sensor signals and fires it? Just remember, you're talking
to an electro-phobe.
>
>Thanks,
>John
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Light Circuit? |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Hi Ron,
I can categorically state that an inductor of any use in a landing light circuit
would weigh more than a watermellon. I think you are looking for an NTC thermistor
to limit inrush current.
These are little quarter-size parts that have a higher resistance when cold and
a lower resistance when hot. Most thermistor makers have these. Digikey has p/n
KC022L. When cold the part is 0.7 ohms and when hot it is 0.02 ohms (1/35th
as resistive). This lowers the filament thermal shock considerably.
It is important to realize that the part runs HOT. Make no attempt to cool it off.
It wants to be mounted in still air, probably on the back of the lamp itself.
The "keep-alive" lamp current technique uses power that could be better used elsewhere,
but this is a personal choice. It is easy to make a soft-start switch
in solid state too.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22617#22617
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: redundant fuel delivery (was Z-19 questions) |
>
>John
>
>The advice to not make a primary system less reliable by adding backups
>that could compromise it is good advice. However if you want a second
>system, an independant second system can certainly be installed that
>does not have any common failure points or share items with the primary
>system. Ideally neither system should know that the other exists.
>
>For example a backup efi might be a homemade megasquirt unit that shares
>no sensors, wiring, injectors, etc. with the primary system. The
>throttle sensor can be eliminated since airplane throttles are opened
>slowly. The engine temperature sensor could be eliminated because the
>engine will already be warm if the backup is needed. So a minimum system
>needs a crank or cam sensor for rpm, a MAP sensor which is onboard the
>$150. ish megasquirt, an inlet air temp sensor, one or more additional
>injectors, an independant power source and a separate power switch. I'm
>sure you already have a second fuel pump. A lot of reliability concerns
>go away with the ability to just select another system.
Exactly! Here's a post I made some years ago on that same
topic suggesting an even simpler way to craft independent
fuel delivery systems to on engine using stock hardware, no
modifications to the engine and a simple, easy to implement
procedure:
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:54:46 -0600
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuel system failure . . .
Sender: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
>in regards to the fuel primer , what do you mean by primary system failure?
>is this where you would be using a fuel flow meter with the vane paddles in
>it ? they do warn to have a bypass in a system like this. i have used
>two different types of electric primers that i put together , worked great
>and were cheap. if you want i could tell you how i did it .........marty
Some years ago(I believe I may have written about the
idea in my first issue of the AeroElectric Connection)
I suggested that builders consider a backup fuel delivery
system. I opined that it was pretty easy to do . . . in
fact, lots of certified airplanes are already fitted with
a rudimentary backup system.
DataPoint 1:
I've read dozens of hangar flying stories over the years
where a pilot suffered a variety of normal fuel delivery
system failures (broken throttle linkage, stuck float
in carb, plugged fuel lines, etc) and managed to nurse
his airplane to a comfortable landing by stroking the
primer pump.
DataPoint 2:
I connected these stories with a system I observed
on the Beech Skipper (BE-77) in which I took my primary
training. To prime the engine, one pressed in on the
key while cranking. This closes an extra set of contacts
in the key switch opening a solenoid valve that routes
fuel from the downstream side of the boost pump to the
primer lines. This made sure that the cranking motor
was turning as raw fuel was fed to the engine.
This improves vaporization efficiency because the engine
is ingesting air while priming fuel is flowing.
DataPoint 3:
The so called fuel injected engines found on airplanes
is very rudimentary when compared with modern EFI systems
on automobiles but is technically elegant with respect
to complexity. They simply deliver a calibrated pressure
flow of fuel to a nozzle located just outside the intake
valve of each cylinder.
DataPoint 4:
I've noted that some engines don't prime all cylinders,
to make the backup delivery system work, you'd want to have
fuel delivered to every cylinder. Other primers dump fuel
into the carburetor which is fine too (More modern EFI
engines might have a single nozzle dump fuel into the
airflow just outside the throttle plate).
Proposal:
Borrowing from the electrically controlled primer system
found on the BE-77 and perhaps other airplanes, how about
putting a valve in the primer line that allows calibration
of primer fuel flow to some rate commensurate with 60-70%
power. A needle valve would work.
Arrange to supply power to the boost pump and open the
solenoid valve by the proper placement of switches in the
cockpit. If one wanted to take redundancy to a logical
limit, I'd put a separate finger strainer in a tank and
supply the primer system with it's own electric pump.
Now, should one find himself airborne with no way to get
fuel to the engine through the normal delivery path, you
would shut off the normal delivery system (valves closed,
pump off, mixture to idle cutoff) and flip the primer
switch on. The throttle then becomes a mixture control.
Adjust throttle for best running engine.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/NoValve.gif
The reasoning here is that a simple enhancement to a
stock primer system would provide an on-purpose backup
to the normal fuel delivery system.
Several years after I first proposed this system, a
LongEz driver e-mailed me to say that his airplane
suffered a frozen fuel selector valve and the handle
broke off with the valve in a position that wouldn't
allow delivery of useful fuel. The calibrated primer
backup system did the job and he continued flight for
over 30 minutes to an uneventful landing at an
airport.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------
( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. )
( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal )
( education" )
( Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Headset and Mic Connections |
>
>I ordered some headset and mic jacks from B&C Specialty. Are the
>connections to these supposed to be soldered? If so, is there a standard
>practice used
>to attach the wire to the solder tabs on the jacks? The solder tabs have a
>small diameter hole in them.
See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Jack_Tab_Soldering/Jack_Tab_Soldering.html
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Why is wire plated? |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Sorry if this is a second post, first gave came back with a wierd error.
Why is wire common found on aerocraft plated?
What are advantages/disadvantages?
What material is the plating?
I want to use a short length of #12 with silicone insulation common to
model electrics in the cockpit for it's ability to carry amps and remain
very flexable (a gazillion strands of copper no plating).
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why is wire plated? |
>
>Sorry if this is a second post, first gave came back with a wierd error.
>
>Why is wire common found on aerocraft plated?
>
>What are advantages/disadvantages?
>
>What material is the plating?
>
>I want to use a short length of #12 with silicone insulation common to
>model electrics in the cockpit for it's ability to carry amps and remain
>very flexable (a gazillion strands of copper no plating).
Primary reason is to maintain conditions conducive to
joining the wire. Bare copper will corrode and make soldering
difficult. Corrosion also introduces contaminants into
a crimped joint where clean, gas-tight joining is a goal.
If you use new, un-plated wire and it's nice and bright
before soldering or crimping, the material will be just
fine for your project.
Similarly, welding cable with super flexibility and low
cost is attractive for many fat wires in an airplane. This
wire is also fabricated from bare copper that's entirely
suited to the task if bright and clean at time of assembly.
I'm not familiar with "model electrics". I'm also curious
as to popular use of silicone insulation. If I were
to go on a shopping trip for silicone insulated wire, I'm
not sure I could find any in Wichita beyond that which is
offered on spark plug wires. It's not an insulation we
commonly see on spools of wire intended for point to point
interconnections. Can you enlighten us further?
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Hello Bob
"I'm not familiar with "model electrics". I'm also curious as to popular
use of silicone insulation"
Model Electric Airplanes are getting much popular (as well as Helis and
Boats), especial with new battery technology.
Charging and switching about of battery packs, causes much flexing
demands. Weight is critical, and the gazillion strands helps out not only
on flexibility, but minimal weight for ability to carry amps. On models
you often cheat on size of wire to save weight, and that can heat things
up. Silicone insulation is very flexible and pretty good at high
temperatures. In the quantities I buy, it is not cheap.
Astroflight, Hobby Lobby and many others sell it.
One of my favorite connectors, Sermos or Anderson Powerpole Modular
connectors work awful well with Model Electrics. The 15 amp, 30 amp and 45
amp size is the same size, just the pins are different. I would much
rather parallel 2 connectors than rely on 1. If things are perfect you can
use a 30 amp for 30 amps. That said I do find from time to time signs of
high resistance joints. Using 2 parallel 15s, never had a problem.
They are going to be used in numerous locations on my Europa.
Check out:
http://www.yourzagi.com/wagmax.htm
Go to fourth picture down, it shows parallel silicone wire and connectors.
You can position the modular connectors so they are keyed so can not make
a mistake. Can easily stack a dozen or more in a row or cube.
www.mcmaster sells them. 2 parallel work great for Cessna landing lights
in cowl, easy removal and install, even when real cold out.
I will use them for connectors for allowing electron to my wings, which
will be removed a fair amount.
Off topic, but in that same picture #4, you will see black size E Dacron
thread holding on my 3/4HP motor! This technique is unbelievable. Use a
little JB Weld fast cure to get position you want, then use thin CA (Crazy
type glue like Zap)to hold thread in place. A quick slice and tap and
motor is off. Way off subject, buy some keen edge razor blades from
McMaster Carr, they are black and super sharp. Break em with pliers for
small on the spot scalpel.
Same photo you can see the 2 Carbon Fiber rods, they are green. I go to an
indoor Archery range, and garbage pick CF arrows that hit the cement wall,
or the knocks get "Knocked" forward a few inches. Since most of these are
unidirectional wrapped, they are not great in some directions as far as
strength. I internal custom sleeve where more strength is desired, and
then wrap the exterior with Spectra Fishing line and thin CA. If you have
not played with this stuff, do so. Strong like steel, glues easily with
thin CA, not good for high temperatures. Another appeal for holding
batteries, is the spectra is not a good conductor. CF conducts better than
you care for in many electrical instances. Spectra is pretty abrasion
resistant. Anyway CF and Spectra wrap, and Size E Dacron are all making
its way into Europa.
Also McMaster check out Kevlar and Nomex thread.
For much of my wires, and fuel lines instead of traditional nylon ty wraps
on stand offs, I took a piece of Balsa Wood square 2 inches by 1 inch and
laid up 1 ply BID. Then I sewed with Kevlar thread using a Zig Zag stitch
Velcro to the 2 x 1. Then wrapped with thin .020 safety wire, and laid up
1 layer BID on bottom. Now just need to Redux this anywhere you need a
hold-down. On my fuel lines going through the tunnel I put a piece of
Velcro on the lines themselves.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Any merit using a capacitor with ND alternator? |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Is there any merit using a 22,000mF capacitor with a SD-20s alternator and
a LR3C linear regulator as far as:
Keeping things stable if battery were to go off line (my main reason for
asking this question)?
Perhaps reducing some sort of noise?
Other?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rotax 914 internal generator and Ducati regulator/rectifier as per the
install manual have you install a 22,000mF capacitor. I think idea is not
only for noise control, but if the battery goes off line it will keep
things stable.
Rotax has an optional 40 amp ND alternator with internal regulator. I
suspect it is a switching regulator. Anyway as per the install manual have
you install a 22,000mF capacitor.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
Years ago, I knew an electrical engineer who claimed he could rejuvenate
NiCad batteries by charging a capacitor and zapping it across the battery.
I watched him do this, and saw what I recall were positive results. He
claimed it reduced the internal resistance, so they would hold a charge
better. Is there anything to this?
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 729 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Little <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
I've done it a lot. I used it to blow out internal shorts in battery
packs. I'd take a big computer-grade low esr electrolytic, charge it
with a power supply then connect it to the batter pack.
The large current would blow out any internal shorts.
This works a few times, but is not a permanent fix for NiCd problems.
Also, the charge rate of NiCd batteries is proportional to the discharge
rate... so the trick is to discharge them quickly, then charge them
quickly using special chargers (battery charger/conditioners).
Also, it's better to pulse charge the NiCd batteries, rather than using
a smooth DC charging source.
You may want to Google it, because there is a lot of info available.
Vern Little
Alex Peterson wrote:
>
> Years ago, I knew an electrical engineer who claimed he could rejuvenate
> NiCad batteries by charging a capacitor and zapping it across the battery.
> I watched him do this, and saw what I recall were positive results. He
> claimed it reduced the internal resistance, so they would hold a charge
> better. Is there anything to this?
>
>
> Alex Peterson
> RV6-A N66AP 729 hours
> Maple Grove, MN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
Alex Peterson wrote:
>
> Years ago, I knew an electrical engineer who claimed he could rejuvenate
> NiCad batteries by charging a capacitor and zapping it across the battery.
> I watched him do this, and saw what I recall were positive results. He
> claimed it reduced the internal resistance, so they would hold a charge
> better. Is there anything to this?
There is something to this but it is not because it reduced the internal
resistance.
Seems that NiCds have a tendency for the sodium hydroxide electrolyte to
form conductive crystals if the battery is left discharged. The crystals
grow through the separator and cause a short between the plates
(electrodes inside the battery). When that happens you can't charge the
NiCd.
What the capacitor does is provide a huge momentary current that
destroys these crystals without overheating the battery. Once the shorts
are blown clear, the battery will then take a charge.
The only caveat is, when this happens it usually means that the battery
is approaching the end of its life. The crystal is not completely
destroyed but the short is removed. The crystal is likely to grow back
and short the cell again. Still, it is a useful technique if you need to
get a couple more cycles from your NiCds.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> alternator? |
| Subject: | Re: Any merit using a capacitor with ND alternator? |
>
>Is there any merit using a 22,000mF capacitor with a SD-20s alternator and
>a LR3C linear regulator as far as:
>Keeping things stable if battery were to go off line (my main reason for
>asking this question)?
>Perhaps reducing some sort of noise?
>Other?
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Rotax 914 internal generator and Ducati regulator/rectifier as per the
>install manual have you install a 22,000mF capacitor. I think idea is not
>only for noise control, but if the battery goes off line it will keep
>things stable.
>
>Rotax has an optional 40 amp ND alternator with internal regulator. I
>suspect it is a switching regulator. Anyway as per the install manual have
>you install a 22,000mF capacitor.
Nope, if there was some benefit to be realized, we would have
included it in the recommended installation drawings. That
isn't to say that adding a capacitor won't reduce some noise
characteristics. It's just that the noise from a 3-phase,
wound field alternator is a known quantity that falls below
acceptable limits expected on a DC alternator/battery system.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/MSTD704_28V_Noise.jpg
These noise values are for a 28v system, half them for 14v.
Everyone who is a savvy supplier to the industry EXPECTS and
designs their products to live in this environment.
Should you encounter a device not designed to live in the real
world, it's usually easier to filter off the offending noise
at input to the victim as opposed to attacking it at the source.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Boddicker <trumanst(at)netins.net> |
Bob,
I was making my third flight in my Tri Q 200 this past Sat. I noticed that
every time I presses the mic remote key switch, the OV light would come on.
Nothing is connected to ships power at this time. Using nine volt on
intercom, and a new IC-A6 with it's own battery. Ever heard of anything like
this before? I did not have the ships antenna hooked up either. Rubber ducky
only.
I did not notice it on the first two flights, but may have not been aware of
it. Had other tasks on my mind.
Thanks for all you do.
Kevin Boddicker
Luana, Iowa
Tri Q200 N7868B
Flying!!!! 2.6 HRS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob,
>I was making my third flight in my Tri Q 200 this past Sat. I noticed that
>every time I presses the mic remote key switch, the OV light would come on.
>Nothing is connected to ships power at this time. Using nine volt on
>intercom, and a new IC-A6 with it's own battery. Ever heard of anything like
>this before? I did not have the ships antenna hooked up either. Rubber ducky
>only.
Who's OV light?
>I did not notice it on the first two flights, but may have not been aware of
>it. Had other tasks on my mind.
At first blush, it sounds like the OV sensor is sensitive
to RF. Hand-helds with rubber duck antennas can be the
worst antagonists with respect to cockpit mounted accessories.
In fact, I used my hand-held as a quick-looksee for RF susceptibility
for hardware on the bench.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Speaking of RF...I have had a long standing noise in my radio
problem...Ok unitl the alternator starts charging then you get
everything, ignition, alternator, strobes...Lovely....And its not on the
intercom as it varies with radio volume.
A complete aside...While working in my shop I noticed National public
broadcasting got noisy the moment I plugged in my battery drill battery
to its smart charger...Hmmm I wonder?
In the plane I have a battery charger on the GPS powered from ship....So
yesterday while out flying I unplugged it.
Noise went away immediately and I can turn the noise on and off by
plugging and plugging the power lead...Ah HA!
Did I simply not ground the charger properly?
Frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "F. ILMAIN" <f_ilmain(at)hotmail.com> |
Too big a file to e mail.
Any specific pages you need ?
Cheers
Franck
>From: "Richard Garforth" <richard(at)hawk.flyer.co.uk>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: KR 87
>Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 09:14:22 -0000
>
>
>
>Has anyone a copy of the KR 87 install manual that they could Email me
>please ?
>
>Richard
>RV10
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Key Ignition Switch |
3/20/2006
Hello Fellow Builders, Several of us have a real dislike for the key type
ignition switches found in many type certificated airplanes and also
installed by builders who may just assume "that's the best way".
The following web page offers another data point on why that type of
ignition switch is dislked by many of us.
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191792-1.html
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Key Ignition Switch |
Obviously, the article describes a skew, as it was a defective switch "out
of the box".
But, you must also look at the size of the ring of keys involved in
situations like this. If your airplane key is one of the 50 keys on that 2"
key ring, you are putting mechanical loads on the switch that it was not
designed for.
But in the interests of learning something here, how would you secure your
airplane other than with a keyed ignition switch?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
3/20/2006
Hello Fellow Builders, Several of us have a real dislike for the key type
ignition switches found in many type certificated airplanes and also
installed by builders who may just assume "that's the best way".
The following web page offers another data point on why that type of
ignition switch is dislked by many of us.
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191792-1.html
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Key Ignition Switch |
3/20/2006
Hello Fellow Builders, Several of us have a real dislike for the key type
ignition switches found in many type certificated airplanes and also
installed by builders who may just assume "that's the best way".
The following web page offers another data point on why that type of
ignition switch is dislked by many of us.
Please put this in web page form starting
here//http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191792-1.html
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Key Ignition Switch |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
You can still use a keyed switch but better to make sure it only
controls a single ignition and the starter. The second ignition will be
on a separate switch. Hard to start it unless you want to swing the prop
by hand.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Denton
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
-->
Obviously, the article describes a skew, as it was a defective switch
"out of the box".
But, you must also look at the size of the ring of keys involved in
situations like this. If your airplane key is one of the 50 keys on that
2"
key ring, you are putting mechanical loads on the switch that it was not
designed for.
But in the interests of learning something here, how would you secure
your airplane other than with a keyed ignition switch?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
3/20/2006
Hello Fellow Builders, Several of us have a real dislike for the key
type ignition switches found in many type certificated airplanes and
also installed by builders who may just assume "that's the best way".
The following web page offers another data point on why that type of
ignition switch is dislked by many of us.
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191792-1.html
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Key Ignition Switch |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Bill,
With a chain around the propeller.. How about a padlock through the guard
on the toggle switch which controlls the starter?
How do you propose that a key switch provides significant security for
your airplane? Granted, the dumbest criminals don't know how a magneto
works, but the determined ones will. As has been discussed here in the
past, airplanes are easy to hotwire.
BTW, I don't think multiengine airplanes have keyswitches...
Matt-
>
>
> Obviously, the article describes a skew, as it was a defective switch
> "out of the box".
>
> But, you must also look at the size of the ring of keys involved in
> situations like this. If your airplane key is one of the 50 keys on that
> 2" key ring, you are putting mechanical loads on the switch that it was
> not designed for.
>
> But in the interests of learning something here, how would you secure
> your airplane other than with a keyed ignition switch?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> bakerocb(at)cox.net
> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 1:24 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
>
>
> 3/20/2006
>
> Hello Fellow Builders, Several of us have a real dislike for the key
> type ignition switches found in many type certificated airplanes and
> also installed by builders who may just assume "that's the best way".
>
> The following web page offers another data point on why that type of
> ignition switch is dislked by many of us.
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191792-1.html
>
> OC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tomcostanza(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Avionics for Dummies |
I have an electronics background and am looking for an intro tutorial text for
light aircraft avionics. In particular, what the different components are, what
signals go between them, how do I connect OBS "A" to nav receiver "B", etc.
I hear terms like "resolver", and have no idea what that is. Is there a technician
out there that can recommend a book or two?
Thanks,
Tom Costanza
RV-7A
Wings
I have an electronics background and am looking for an introtutorial text for light
aircraft avionics. In particular, what the different components are, what
signals go between them, how do I connect OBS "A" to nav receiver "B", etc. I
hear terms like "resolver", and have no idea what that is. Is there a technician
out there that can recommend a book or two?
Thanks,
Tom Costanza
RV-7A
Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z diagrams and fuseable links |
| From: | "Jekyll" <rcitjh(at)aol.com> |
I'm planning my electrical system and am intending to use a cludge of the Z-13/8
and Z-12. Basically, I'm deleting the SD-20 circuits from the Z-12 and inserting
the SD-8 circuitry from the Z-13/8. Said another way, my intent is to use
the Z13/8 but substituting the B&C VR (LRC3-14) for the VR shown. I'm using an
E-Mag/P-Mag combination. I thought the remainder would be identical but close
examination shows some differences (other than the ignition) which I don't understand.
a. The E-Bus alternate feed in Z-13/8 has a fuseable link and a 7A fuse but the
Z-12 has just the fuse. Why the difference between the drawings? Why have both
a fuseable link and a fuse in the same wire? I thought thier purpose and function
were the same.
b. The Z-13/8 has a fuseable link and a 5 amp pullable CB between the main bus
and the DC master power switch. The Z-12 just has the CB. Why the difference and
should I use the fuseable link or just the CB?
c. The Z-13/8 indicates the E-bus and the main bus should be no more than 6 inches
apart. Am I to read that as no more than 12 inches because of the isolation
diode (6 inch max on each side of the diode) or should it be a combined total
of 6 inches? The Z-12 doesn't identify this requirment. Should the 2 Z figures
be the same in this regard and if not, which should I use (6 inches each or
in total)?
d. The avionics ground bus shows a connection to the instrument panel ground bus
indicated as 5X20AWG. I'm thinking this indicates a ground connection based
on 5 seperate 20 AWG wires to individual faston tabs between the busses. Please
confirm or correct my read on this.
Thanks
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23001#23001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Gas Detector Sensor |
I bought the gas detector sensor kit that Dan Checkoway indicated in this
forum
>
> http://www.electronic-kits-and-projects.com/4055.htm
>
It came with a green LED to indicate the presence of gas, but since I want
it to indicate CO in my airplane's cabin, it seems more logical to put a red
LED instead.
I will replace the LED, but my (electronic ignorant guy) question is: how
can I put a blinking red LED? Is it the type of LED or anything else I
should add to make the LED blink?
The kit also has a relay-operated contact which I plan to use as an audio
alarm. Which device shall I install to have that feature? A beeper? Anything
else? Where can I get it?
TIA
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | Key Ignition Switch |
In an RV-8 you could install a switch in the front baggage compartment that
disables the starter switch. You would probably only use it when you thought
there was some risk, such as leaving the plane out overnight or at a fly-in.
Locking the baggage compartment would prevent anyone from getting to the
switch.
Terry
RV-8A finishing
Seattle
I'm wondering more about the kid at Oshkosh that likes to push buttons,
than the hardened criminal who thinks he's gonna steal an airplane with the
word "EXPERIMENTAL" written all over it and a bunch of controls he's never
seen before in his life.
Dave Morris
At 03:22 PM 3/20/2006, you wrote:
>
>
> > Hello Fellow Builders, Several of us have a real dislike for the key
type
> > ignition switches found in many type certificated airplanes and also
> > installed by builders who may just assume "that's the best way".
>
>Me too. I'm leaning towards a canopy lock and a prop lock. I've
>also seen a very clever control stick lock.
>
>Got any better suggestions?
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Boddicker <trumanst(at)netins.net> |
on 3/20/06 11:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III at nuckollsr(at)cox.net wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Bob,
>> I was making my third flight in my Tri Q 200 this past Sat. I noticed that
>> every time I presses the mic remote key switch, the OV light would come on.
>> Nothing is connected to ships power at this time. Using nine volt on
>> intercom, and a new IC-A6 with it's own battery. Ever heard of anything like
>> this before? I did not have the ships antenna hooked up either. Rubber ducky
>> only.
>
> Who's OV light?
B&C Specilaties.
The light comes on steady when the mic is keyed.
Today, while doing a cowl off inspection, I noticed that the small stranded
wire from the large post to the small post on the S701-1 contactor was
burned in two. I did have a OV trip a few months back while taxi testing,
but figured it was a nuisance trip. Without the small wire the alternator
has been functioning. The battery seems to have full charge. Did not use
tester it was at home. Just looked at the volt meter. Turning the master on
did not bring up the LV sensor light.
>
>> I did not notice it on the first two flights, but may have not been aware of
>> it. Had other tasks on my mind.
>
> At first blush, it sounds like the OV sensor is sensitive
> to RF. That is what we thought also but I was curious. Hand-helds with
rubber duck antennas can be the
> worst antagonists with respect to cockpit mounted accessories.
> In fact, I used my hand-held as a quick-looksee for RF susceptibility
> for hardware on the bench.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Thermal wire stripper? |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
I was talking to a friend today about stripping teflon wire. He said his
favorite that he used to use was a thermal wire stripper made by American
Beauty.
I have a resistance soldering set up that he thinks is the same power
supply that he used to use.
Has / does anyone use one of these on Tefzel wire? Has anyone made a pair
of tweezers?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Thermal wire stripper? |
Check ebay for 'stripall'.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:06 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermal wire stripper?
I was talking to a friend today about stripping teflon wire. He said his
favorite that he used to use was a thermal wire stripper made by American
Beauty.
I have a resistance soldering set up that he thinks is the same power
supply that he used to use.
Has / does anyone use one of these on Tefzel wire? Has anyone made a pair
of tweezers?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z diagrams and fuseable links |
>
>I'm planning my electrical system and am intending to use a cludge of the
>Z-13/8 and Z-12. Basically, I'm deleting the SD-20 circuits from the Z-12
>and inserting the SD-8 circuitry from the Z-13/8. Said another way, my
>intent is to use the Z13/8 but substituting the B&C VR (LRC3-14) for the
>VR shown. I'm using an E-Mag/P-Mag combination. I thought the remainder
>would be identical but close examination shows some differences (other
>than the ignition) which I don't understand.
How does figure Z-13/8 fall short of your design goals?
I presume you understand that if you close the master
contactor during main alternator inop operations that
you have the same functionality as replacing the SD-20
with an SD-8 in Z-12 . . .
However, when wired as Z-13, you can continue flight
to airport of intended destination with minimal loads
thus saving the battery for approach to landing by reclosing
the master contactor and powering up everything you need
knowing that the battery's full capacity + SD8 output
is available for completion of flight.
I don't understand what you want to achieve with the
architecture you've suggested.
>a. The E-Bus alternate feed in Z-13/8 has a fuseable link and a 7A fuse
>but the Z-12 has just the fuse. Why the difference between the drawings?
>Why have both a fuseable link and a fuse in the same wire? I thought thier
>purpose and function were the same.
Sorta . . . the operating time constant between fuses and fusible links
could not be further apart. Circuit breakers reside in between.
Sizing of fuses, breakers, wire and choices for style of
protective devices are all up to you. When you see protection
at both ends of a wire, it suggests that their are sources
of energy that put the wire at risk from either end.
>b. The Z-13/8 has a fuseable link and a 5 amp pullable CB between the main
>bus and the DC master power switch. The Z-12 just has the CB. Why the
>difference and should I use the fuseable link or just the CB?
I'll suggest you review the fusible link discussion
at
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/fuselink/fuselink.html
>c. The Z-13/8 indicates the E-bus and the main bus should be no more than
>6 inches apart. Am I to read that as no more than 12 inches because of the
>isolation diode (6 inch max on each side of the diode) or should it be a
>combined total of 6 inches? The Z-12 doesn't identify this requirment.
>Should the 2 Z figures be the same in this regard and if not, which should
>I use (6 inches each or in total)?
There are no requirements, only recommendations based on
carry-overs and rules-of-thumb from the certified world.
The rule-of-thumb for leaving a wire "unprotected" is 6"
of length. If your own thumb is longer, feel free.
If you're not comfortable/conversant with the tradeoffs
for selection of protection, go for breakers/fuses sized
for your particular load analysis. Fusible links are limited
use devices and not universal replacements for more
conventional device.
>d. The avionics ground bus shows a connection to the instrument panel
>ground bus indicated as 5X20AWG. I'm thinking this indicates a ground
>connection based on 5 seperate 20 AWG wires to individual faston tabs
>between the busses. Please confirm or correct my read on this.
Yes, this is one option. See Figure 18-17 in:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/18Audio_R11.pdf
You can use multiple pins within the bus connector or
take a couple of fatter from the bus to firewall ground
block.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Key Ignition Switch |
>
> But in the interests of learning something here, how would you secure your
> airplane other than with a keyed ignition switch?
>
>
I secure mine by locking the canopy. If someone wants to break the canopy
and fly my plane with winds blasting them smack in the face, that is their
life they will risk.
Indiana Larry
----- Original Message -----
>
> Obviously, the article describes a skew, as it was a defective switch "out
> of the box".
>
> But, you must also look at the size of the ring of keys involved in
> situations like this. If your airplane key is one of the 50 keys on that
> 2"
> key ring, you are putting mechanical loads on the switch that it was not
> designed for.
>
>
> But in the interests of learning something here, how would you secure your
> airplane other than with a keyed ignition switch?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z diagrams and fuseable links |
| From: | "Jekyll" <rcitjh(at)aol.com> |
nuckollsr(at)cox.net wrote:
>
> How does figure Z-13/8 fall short of your design goals?
> I presume you understand that if you close the master
> contactor during main alternator inop operations that
> you have the same functionality as replacing the SD-20
> with an SD-8 in Z-12 . . .
>
Well, I think I said that 13/8 is using a generic Ford VR and that I looking at
using the B&C VR part number LRC3-14. In looking at 13/8 and 12, I at first thought
the only difference in the main alternator wiring is that the crow bar
and low voltage monitoring portions depicted in the 13/8 are internal to the B&C
VR used on the Z-12. But then I noticed subtle differences in the form of the
fuseable links I mentioned.
I'm no genius at this stuff so I bought your book and use your site for assistance.
Though I'm a babe in the woods with wiring airplanes, the main alternator
circuitry and the logic flow between the e-bus, main bus, bat bus and instrument
bus appear to be the same. This causes me to wonder why the differences I
mentioned exist namely the fuseable link between the e bus and switch, the fuseable
link between the main bus and the alt CB. With the similarities between
the 2 drawings, I would have expected the same callouts in these areas.
So- why fuseable links in one and not the other? I'm not critisizing your designs,
just trying to understand so that I can wire my bird with the confidence that
comes from understanding.
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23059#23059
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Key Ignition Switch |
Bill,
Do a quick friendly ramp check on your local Bell 206 JetRanger. There is a
key switch that enables/disables the starter circuit, but in itself has no
bearing on the operation of the start switch. In fact the keyswitch is on
the Pilot's side of the center console beside his calf, and the starter
switch is on the collective. I'm thinking about using some kind of
arrangement like this to disable the starter circuit on my airplane and keep
it safer from theft...
Rob
RV-10
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Denton
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 2:05 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
Obviously, the article describes a skew, as it was a defective switch "out
of the box".
But, you must also look at the size of the ring of keys involved in
situations like this. If your airplane key is one of the 50 keys on that 2"
key ring, you are putting mechanical loads on the switch that it was not
designed for.
But in the interests of learning something here, how would you secure your
airplane other than with a keyed ignition switch?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
3/20/2006
Hello Fellow Builders, Several of us have a real dislike for the key type
ignition switches found in many type certificated airplanes and also
installed by builders who may just assume "that's the best way".
The following web page offers another data point on why that type of
ignition switch is dislked by many of us.
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191792-1.html
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Key Ignition Switch |
Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:
>
> I'm wondering more about the kid at Oshkosh that likes to push buttons,
> than the hardened criminal who thinks he's gonna steal an airplane with the
> word "EXPERIMENTAL" written all over it and a bunch of controls he's never
> seen before in his life.
And that happens. I climbed into my airplane to fly in the airshow at
OSH several years ago only to find every switch in the airplane, master
included, turned on and battery dead. No flight for me that day.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Key Ignition Switch |
A throttle lock would do more good than a key switch.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Denton
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
Obviously, the article describes a skew, as it was a defective switch
"out
of the box".
But, you must also look at the size of the ring of keys involved in
situations like this. If your airplane key is one of the 50 keys on that
2"
key ring, you are putting mechanical loads on the switch that it was not
designed for.
But in the interests of learning something here, how would you secure
your
airplane other than with a keyed ignition switch?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
3/20/2006
Hello Fellow Builders, Several of us have a real dislike for the key
type
ignition switches found in many type certificated airplanes and also
installed by builders who may just assume "that's the best way".
The following web page offers another data point on why that type of
ignition switch is dislked by many of us.
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191792-1.html
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z diagrams and fuseable links |
Bob, your original Z13 from a couple of years back used the LRC3-14
regulator but recently you pulled that one and substituted a diagram using
the Ford Regulator. I understood Jekyll to say that he was using the Z13
diagram but needed to pull the regulator circuit from Z12 which you still
show with the LRC3-14. Thus the blend of Z13 and Z12. I have an old copy
of the original Z13 with the B&C regulator if that would help!
If I were to ask you for my perfect Z13 it would be the Z13/8 with B&C
regulator and one P-Mag,... But then you always said "they are just
architecture examples, modify as needed". :-)
Thanks for all your help!
Bill S
7a wiring
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jekyll
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 9:57 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z diagrams and fuseable links
nuckollsr(at)cox.net wrote:
>
> How does figure Z-13/8 fall short of your design goals?
> I presume you understand that if you close the master
> contactor during main alternator inop operations that
> you have the same functionality as replacing the SD-20
> with an SD-8 in Z-12 . . .
>
Well, I think I said that 13/8 is using a generic Ford VR and that I looking
at using the B&C VR part number LRC3-14. In looking at 13/8 and 12, I at
first thought the only difference in the main alternator wiring is that the
crow bar and low voltage monitoring portions depicted in the 13/8 are
internal to the B&C VR used on the Z-12. But then I noticed subtle
differences in the form of the fuseable links I mentioned.
I'm no genius at this stuff so I bought your book and use your site for
assistance. Though I'm a babe in the woods with wiring airplanes, the main
alternator circuitry and the logic flow between the e-bus, main bus, bat bus
and instrument bus appear to be the same. This causes me to wonder why the
differences I mentioned exist namely the fuseable link between the e bus and
switch, the fuseable link between the main bus and the alt CB. With the
similarities between the 2 drawings, I would have expected the same callouts
in these areas.
So- why fuseable links in one and not the other? I'm not critisizing your
designs, just trying to understand so that I can wire my bird with the
confidence that comes from understanding.
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23059#23059
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Key Ignition Switch |
>
>A throttle lock would do more good than a key switch.
>
>Pax,
. . . or a padded chain over the prop. I've talked with
numerous operators who prefer this method. It's right out
in front so the midnight airplane shopper will see it
right off. Further, it's right out in front where any
attempts to removed it (time consuming) is more
likely to be observed. It's inexpensive even when the
hardest chain and locks are used and one size fits most.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/AC_Theft_Protection.jpg
A keyed mag switch is only a slight inconvenience. I once
lost the key to a rental machine and brought the
airplane home by breaking the p-lead terminals off the
back of the mags with my fingers, hand-propped the
airplane and came home. 20 minutes with a crimp tool
and strippers repaired the 'work-around' and I cut some
new keys from the office spare. Others have told me
that they did similar work-arounds by breaking the
terminals off at the mag switch. One or the
other is easy to get at. If you're really
crude . . . a pair of diagonal wire cutters works too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
Cc:
| Subject: | Re: Gas Detector Sensor |
Mickey
Thanks for your offer.
My address is
CARLOS TRIGO
Rua dos Cravos, 424
2750-225 CASCAIS
PORTUGAL
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Gas Detector Sensor
>
>
>> I will replace the LED, but my (electronic ignorant guy) question is: how
>> can I put a blinking red LED? Is it the type of LED or anything else I
>> should add to make the LED blink?
>
> Carlos, if you send me your postal address I can send you a
> blinking red LED. I bought some from Fry's last time I
> was in the US, but I'm not going to use them. They take
> 12v input - I hope that's what you need.
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Key Ignition Switch |
>
> But in the interests of learning something here, how would you secure your
> airplane other than with a keyed ignition switch?
>
>
I too will be locking my canopy. In addition, there will be a specific
switch configuration for starting. For example, when shut down, all
switches will be off. While in operation, a certain minimum number of
switches will be on. For starting, there will be one of those 'minimum for
flight' switches that will be off. This is a DPDT, with the start
contactor circuit using one set of contacts. Anyone not familiar with this
configuration will not be able to crank my plane. Those who don't have as
complex an electrical system could easily do the same sort of thing by
requiring the dome light to be on, or an auto pilot armed, or the baggage
light to be on, or any other switch not normally associated with engine
starting. The bad guy will most likely assume a problem with the plane and
move on. Of course, a prop lock will tend to make him select an easier
target before breaking into your plane...
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Key Ignition Switch |
Morning, Glen...
I too agree that a canopy lock is probably the best route. Maybe both
that and the prop chain.
Sure, a prop lock would prevent them from flying off with the plane, but
if all they are after is the neat avionics that we experimental builders
tend to install....
If they REALLY want the plane or avionics, then they smash the canopy,
and/or they call their friendly neighbor with a flat bed truck.
We can't prevent all attempts of thievery if someone really wants it,
but at least the canopy lock will keep the little kids from touching the
instruments and switches with their peanut butter coated fingers when
we're not around.
Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
Glen Matejcek wrote:
>>But in the interests of learning something here, how would you secure your
>>airplane other than with a keyed ignition switch?
>>
> I too will be locking my canopy. In addition, there will be a specific
>switch configuration for starting. For example, when shut down, all
>switches will be off. While in operation, a certain minimum number of
>switches will be on. For starting, there will be one of those 'minimum for
>flight' switches that will be off. This is a DPDT, with the start
>contactor circuit using one set of contacts. Anyone not familiar with this
>configuration will not be able to crank my plane. Those who don't have as
>complex an electrical system could easily do the same sort of thing by
>requiring the dome light to be on, or an auto pilot armed, or the baggage
>light to be on, or any other switch not normally associated with engine
>starting. The bad guy will most likely assume a problem with the plane and
>move on. Of course, a prop lock will tend to make him select an easier
>target before breaking into your plane...
>
>Glen Matejcek
>aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Key Ignition Switch |
I've got a throttle quadrant from an F-100 and I'm going to use one of the
switches on top of the handle for my starter switch. That way I don't have
to take my hands off the throttle or stick to do an in-flight restart. The
key switch on the ignition is just for the ignition, and the starter won't
run with the key off either, but you don't turn the key to crank the starter.
http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Electrical/WiringTheCenterSwitchPanel.jpg
Dave Morris
At 12:02 AM 3/21/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >A throttle lock would do more good than a key switch.
> >
> >Pax,
>
> . . . or a padded chain over the prop. I've talked with
> numerous operators who prefer this method. It's right out
> in front so the midnight airplane shopper will see it
> right off. Further, it's right out in front where any
> attempts to removed it (time consuming) is more
> likely to be observed. It's inexpensive even when the
> hardest chain and locks are used and one size fits most.
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/AC_Theft_Protection.jpg
>
> A keyed mag switch is only a slight inconvenience. I once
> lost the key to a rental machine and brought the
> airplane home by breaking the p-lead terminals off the
> back of the mags with my fingers, hand-propped the
> airplane and came home. 20 minutes with a crimp tool
> and strippers repaired the 'work-around' and I cut some
> new keys from the office spare. Others have told me
> that they did similar work-arounds by breaking the
> terminals off at the mag switch. One or the
> other is easy to get at. If you're really
> crude . . . a pair of diagonal wire cutters works too.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nancy Ghertner <nghertner(at)verizon.net> |
I am looking for the labeling of the "pins" used on the PS engineering audio
panels. I have the wiring diagrams but I can't read the labels on the unit
itself.
Thanks for any help, Lory Ghertner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)allvantage.com> |
| Subject: | Vans type alternator |
I just bought an ND alternator, Lester #14684. This is the same
alternator supplied with Vans kits. The regulator used in the
alternator is the IN219. The terminal identification is D-IG-L.
I was looking into how to control the field on this alternator and I
have the following questions which I hope someone can answer.
The repair circuit is TRI219. Comments are: Ignition activated. Load
Dump protected, L-Terminal does NOT drive a choke. Overvoltage detect
point is 17.0 V.
Does this mean that the alternator has its own OV protection?
Does this mean that the B&C OV module wired into the IG will control the
field?
Any comments on how to wire this alternator would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill Bradburry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
The install guide for my PMA7000MS had some pages towards the back which gave the
relative positions of the pins on the connector.
If you can't find them - let me know....hopefully the unit you're installing has
a similar pin config to mine....
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: Nancy Ghertner <nghertner(at)verizon.net>
>Sent: Mar 21, 2006 9:40 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List:
>
>
>I am looking for the labeling of the "pins" used on the PS engineering audio
>panels. I have the wiring diagrams but I can't read the labels on the unit
>itself.
>
>Thanks for any help, Lory Ghertner
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Thermal wire stripper? |
| From: | "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle(at)austin.utexas.edu> |
Ron,
I have one that I use sometimes. It is a bit more trouble to use than
an automatic wire stripper. It would be nice if it was cordless. The
big advantage is that you're assured that you aren't nicking the wires
during the stripping operation.
Mark S.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
Gray
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:28 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Thermal wire stripper?
Check ebay for 'stripall'.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:06 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermal wire stripper?
I was talking to a friend today about stripping teflon wire. He said his
favorite that he used to use was a thermal wire stripper made by
American
Beauty.
I have a resistance soldering set up that he thinks is the same power
supply that he used to use.
Has / does anyone use one of these on Tefzel wire? Has anyone made a
pair
of tweezers?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Key Ignition Switch |
| From: | "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com> |
Back to the original post. As far as I know, most common production GA aircraft
use a keyed starter switch. I understand it can fail, just like any other switch.
I also understand redundancy is usually a good thing, however you need to
balance redundancy with complexity and risk potential. You also have to ensure
that your "fix" is not more failure prone than the original. I'm no expert,
but there are a lot of experts designing and building aircraft you start with
a key. Of the millions of flights made with a keyed switch, how many accidents
have been attributed to a failed switch? Are there any service letters, SB's,
or AD's addressing a problem with the switch? I'm not trying to be argumentative,
but I have a keyed ignition switch as called for in my aircrafts design,
and wonder if this is really something that I should be concerned about.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23144#23144
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Key Ignition Switch |
This may have been discussed before. I was thinking about
putting a simple toggle switch in an out of the way place maybe under the
instrument panel on the pilot side or even under the cowl close to the
firewall on the outside. If it we're outside no one would even notice that
you switched it on during preflight and what thief would ever suspect or
understand such a setup. I think my main concern would be an avionics thief
tearing up my instrument panel and stealing multiple thousands of dollars
worth.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 10:09 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
>
>
> Bill,
>
> Do a quick friendly ramp check on your local Bell 206 JetRanger. There is
> a
> key switch that enables/disables the starter circuit, but in itself has no
> bearing on the operation of the start switch. In fact the keyswitch is on
> the Pilot's side of the center console beside his calf, and the starter
> switch is on the collective. I'm thinking about using some kind of
> arrangement like this to disable the starter circuit on my airplane and
> keep
> it safer from theft...
>
> Rob
> RV-10
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
> Denton
> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 2:05 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
>
>
>
> Obviously, the article describes a skew, as it was a defective switch "out
> of the box".
>
> But, you must also look at the size of the ring of keys involved in
> situations like this. If your airplane key is one of the 50 keys on that
> 2"
> key ring, you are putting mechanical loads on the switch that it was not
> designed for.
>
> But in the interests of learning something here, how would you secure your
> airplane other than with a keyed ignition switch?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> bakerocb(at)cox.net
> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 1:24 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Key Ignition Switch
>
>
> 3/20/2006
>
> Hello Fellow Builders, Several of us have a real dislike for the key type
> ignition switches found in many type certificated airplanes and also
> installed by builders who may just assume "that's the best way".
>
> The following web page offers another data point on why that type of
> ignition switch is dislked by many of us.
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191792-1.html
>
> OC
>
>
March 09, 2006 - March 21, 2006
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-fn