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AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-kz
April 02, 2012 - April 20, 2012

> instruction for converting an internally regulated alternator to external? > > Thanks > > Bevan > > Here is one at the EAA site which might help you. > http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp > > Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2012
From: Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: please help me...........Rick
- I am presently in Istanbul , Turkey for an urgent trip. Unfortunately i was robbed in the hotel i lodged, all my valuables including cash, cell ph ones was stolen during the attack but luckily i still have my passport with me. I have been to the Embassy and the Police here but they're not helping issues at all. Please i really need your financial assistance now because things are really getting tough on me here. Kindly lend me $2,500 usd or an y amount you can afford to me now,so i can sort out things and leave here, i promise to refund it immediately i get back. Please send it through Weste rn Union with my name and the address below: Name: Keryn Lee HaynesAddress:Acisu Sok No 5 D 4MackaIstanbulTurkey Kindly send me the transfer details including the Transfer Number (MTCN) as soon as you send it. I await your urgent response. Waiting for your help Regards,Keryn- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: please help me...........Rick
Rick Lark, It appears that your email address has been hijacked by somebody in Turkey who is hopeful that someone on this List is going to 'loan' him a bucket full of money. Suggest you attend to changing your email address with Yahoo. Bob . . . At 03:43 PM 4/2/2012, you wrote: > I am presently in Istanbul , Turkey for an urgent trip. > Unfortunately i was robbed in the hotel i lodged, all my valuables > including cash, cell phones was stolen during the attack but > luckily i still have my passport with me. I have been to the > Embassy and the Police here but they're not helping issues at all. > Please i really need your financial assistance now because things > are really getting tough on me here. Kindly lend me $2,500 usd or > any amount you can afford to me now,so i can sort out things and > leave here, i promise to refund it immediately i get back. Please > send it through Western Union with my name and the address below: > > >Name: Keryn Lee Haynes >Address:Acisu Sok No 5 D 4 >Macka >Istanbul >Turkey > >Kindly send me the transfer details including the Transfer Number >(MTCN) as soon as you send it. I await your urgent response. > > >Waiting for your help > >Regards, >Keryn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
FWIW. I found this one in my files. Hope it's useful. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 04/02/2012 03:09 PM, B Tomm wrote: > Yes but, > > I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not require machining > any part of the case. It also did (as I recall) have you completely > remove the internal regulator. So the process of conversion was > different as I recall. All accomplished with simple hand tools. Perhaps > Bob will chime in with his recommendation. > > Bevan > > _____________________________________________ > *From: * owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [_mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com_] *On Behalf Of* > ROGER & JEAN CURTIS > > *Sent: * Monday, April 02, 2012 12:12 PM > *To: * aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject: * AeroElectric-List: Converting to externally reg alternator > > Bevan, > > Was this not the information you were looking for?? > > > I have seen it but can't find it right now. Can you point me to an > instruction for converting an internally regulated alternator to external? > > Thanks > > Bevan > > Here is one at the EAA site which might help you. > _http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp_ > > Roger > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Converting to externally reg alternator
At 03:09 PM 4/2/2012, you wrote: >Yes but, > >I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not require >machining any part of the case. It also did (as I recall) have you >completely remove the internal regulator. So the process of >conversion was different as I recall. All accomplished with simple >hand tools. Perhaps Bob will chime in with his recommendation. > >Bevan A successful mod has more to do with understanding the manner in which MOST internally regulated alternators are wired, deducing the precise mechanics that accomplish this in YOUR alternator of choice and then doing the minimum chop, hack and solder to achieve that end. Most commercial off-the-shelf alternators have one brush wired to a (+) source of power internal to the alternator. Identifying and isolating the (+) brush connection is key to the mod. http://tinyurl.com/8a9uuns PlanePower no doubt breaks this connection and brings it to the outside world so that external power can be routed inside by way of a circuit breaker upstream of a crowbar ov module. In this case, they leave the (-) brush wired to the pull-down collector or drain of the built in regulator so that it can continue to function at what it does best. If you want to run a classic pull-up regulator with this alternator, then you permanently ground the (-) lead, you still bring the (+) lead out to the external regulator. Here's the 'rub' . . . Emacs! Most if not all "regulators" are housed in some molded enclosure that includes brush holders. Identifying, exposing brush connections, making reliable connection to, and bringing leads out is not something one can write a detailed, step-by-step instruction for. I could probably mod about any alternator in 30 minutes but that's based on a good working knowledge of alternators in general. Take care that you do not alter the spring geometry that keeps the brush in contact with the slip rings at an optimized pressure for the design. I could write s-b-s instructions for any particular model and brand . . . but suppose YOUR model and brand is different? I'm fairly certain that a mod can be done to about any alternator without having to machine the case. It's been 20+ years now so I'm not sure I recall why the B&C mods DO machine the case. I think it's to effect a nice mechanical connection of the (-) brush with case ground using a spacer and screws. You don't have to go that route, wires work too. THEN . . . after slaying the (+) (-) brush problem, you need to decide what, if anything, is best to be done with the internal regulator. Simply isolated it and leave in place -OR- pry it out and put jumper wires in to take the brush holder wiring to the outside world through the stock terminals on the back of the alternator. I think you may find that alloys used to fabricate bond-wire tabs for the internal regulator's electronics assembly are not very solderable . . . at least with our favorite 63/37 electronic grade stuff. It has been suggested that the reason I don't offer instructions for such mods on aeroelectric.com is because I'm protecting a friend's market for modified alternators. In fact, any article offered by me on anyone else will be specific to one series of alternator of one brand. I have oft suggested over the years that local alternator shops could probably mod about any alternator you would bring in the door. It's their business to have practical knowledge of MANY alternators . . . which is beyond the 'scope of what I want to spend time on. If you study and understand the alternator you have in hand, the chances are you'll craft your own successful mod. But just as weeks were spent fine-tuning the B&C offering in search of the elegant solution, you'll spend a significant amount of time doing yours for the first time as well. A great opportunity to learn something. If anyone carries out a successful mod and bothers to photograph the various steps, I'd be pleased to publish the sequence on aeroelectric.com Be sure to identify the 'victim' . . . preferably by Lester number. This will greatly increase chances of your efforts being useful to others. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Converting to externally reg alternator
> >Here is one at the EAA site which might help you. ><http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp>http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp > > >Roger This appears to be a mod on a ND alternator. The guts exposed in these pictures are familiar to me. You can probably accomplish the job without a milling machine or lathe but some judicious sculpting with a Dremel motor and cut-off wheel will speed the process up a bunch. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Converting to externally reg alternator
Date: Apr 02, 2012
Yes but, I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not require machining any part of the case. It also did (as I recall) have you completely remove the internal regulator. So the process of conversion was different as I recall. All accomplished with simple hand tools. Perhaps Bob will chime in with his recommendation. See attached! Is this, perhaps the one you are looking for? Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2012
From: Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: please help me...........Rick
Guys, sorry about the message below.- It appears someone somehow hijacked my yahoo account.- I've changed the password for now and depending on wh at the Yahoo administration says I may change the whole account.- The wor st thing about this is that all my saved-emails containing-tips/advise have been deleted.-Hopefully Yahoo can restore them. Again, sorry about this.............Rick- --- On Mon, 4/2/12, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: please help me...........Rick Received: Monday, April 2, 2012, 9:46 PM Rick Lark, It appears that your email address has been hijacked by somebody in Turkey who is hopeful that someone on this List is going to 'loan' him a bucket full of money. Suggest you attend to changing your email address with Yahoo. Bob . . . At 03:43 PM 4/2/2012, you wrote: - I am presently in Istanbul , Turkey for an urgent trip. Unfortunately i was robbed in the hotel i lodged, all my valuables including cash, cell ph ones was stolen during the attack but luckily i still have my passport with me. I have been to the Embassy and the Police here but they're not helping issues at all. Please i really need your financial assistance now because things are really getting tough on me here. Kindly lend me $2,500 usd or an y amount you can afford to me now,so i can sort out things and leave here, i promise to refund it immediately i get back. Please send it through Weste rn Union with my name and the address below: Name: Keryn Lee Haynes Address:Acisu Sok No 5 D 4 Macka Istanbul Turkey Kindly send me the transfer details including the Transfer Number (MTCN) as soon as you send it. I await your urgent response. Waiting for your help Regards, Keryn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
At 10:24 AM 4/2/2012, you wrote: > >Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day >only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the >reserve battery power give a safe reserve? The ov protection systems can be crafted from a variety of technologies and design goals . . . of which "crowbar" modules is one. ANY technology is better than none. The rational is based on the fact that unlike a generator, alternators are capable of over 100 volts of output as I discussed in this article: http://tinyurl.com/6m3uyqz What's more, this voltage is available at the same current rating as the alternator. Nobody's avionics takes kindly to such abundance of energy. For an OV protection system to qualify onto a Type Certificated aircraft, it must meet certain requirements for SPEED or time it takes to respond to an OV condition. This is on the order of 100 milliseconds or less. MUCH faster than any pilot will perceive a failure and then react fast enough to preclude damage to other parts of the airplane. So an OV protection system has but one purpose . . . bring a failed alternator system to heal in a timely manner. When you ACTIVE NOTIFICATION OF LOW VOLTAGE light comes on a few seconds later, THEN you transition to Plan-B and start the process of getting back on the ground comfortably. Whether or not your battery is capable of proving "safe reserve" is an entirely separate matter. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: please help me...........Rick
At 08:34 PM 4/2/2012, you wrote: >Guys, sorry about the message below. It appears someone somehow >hijacked my yahoo account. I've changed the password for now and >depending on what the Yahoo administration says I may change the >whole account. The worst thing about this is that all my saved >emails containing tips/advise have been deleted. Hopefully Yahoo can >restore them. >Again, sorry about this.............Rick Nothing to be sorry for on our account. It's unfortunate that some individuals have to exist so distant from the boundaries of honorable behavior. Decades ago they had to get 'up close' . . . nowadays, they can work their evil from anywhere on the planet. Our condolences . . . and best wishes for a graceful recovery. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Converting to externally reg alternator
Date: Apr 02, 2012
Thanks Roger, That's what I was looking for. Bevan > _____________________________________________ > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER > & JEAN CURTIS > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 4:11 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Converting to externally reg alternator > > > > Yes but, > I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not require > machining any part of the case. It also did (as I recall) have you > completely remove the internal regulator. So the process of conversion > was different as I recall. All accomplished with simple hand tools. > Perhaps Bob will chime in with his recommendation. > > See attached! Is this, perhaps the one you are > looking for? > > > Roger << File: Alternator Ext. Reg..pdf >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Gallery of First Flight Photos
I've got David Lamb's first-flight photos posted to aeroelectric.com at: http://tinyurl.com/cylw44x Any other members of the List who would like to mark their own day of First Flight are welcome to submit their photos along with location and date the first flight. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 03, 2012
From: piavis(at)comcast.net
Subject: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
I have the Z-13/8 arc hitecture installed in an RV-7 with the LR-3/ L-60 regulator and alternator (370 hours in 4 years and not one electrical problem ) . I recently had the aircraft down for conditional inspection and after about 6 weeks started the aircraft, and when the alternator was brought on-line, the field breaker is now popping as soon as the alternator switch is closed . Thinking the battery was potentially shot after leaving the master on last year, I swapped out the PC-680. I pulled down the LR3 troubleshooting guide from B&C and for the most part, everything looks OK with the exception of the Pin 4 voltage being 1.41 volts below the Pin 6, which is .21V out of tolerance (they indicate a delta of 1.2V is expected). I ohm'd out each of the wires and everything is basically 0 ohms across the individual wires including the field wire from Pin 4 out to the alternator . I do have the 5A breaker installed. I'm starting to scratch my head a bit on troubleshooting the system here, any tips on what else to check? Thanks, Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
From: "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 03, 2012
Roger or forum users, I cannot seem to open the attachment. It appears on my screen as a winmail.dat file rather than an adobe pdf or other file that my computer can open. I am seeing the file in the aeroelectric forum at the matronics lists. Thanks for any help, Eric mrspudandcompany(at)veriz wrote: > Yes but, > I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not > require machining any part of the case. It also did (as I recall) have you > completely remove the internal regulator. So the process of conversion was > different as I recall. All accomplished with simple hand tools. Perhaps > Bob will chime in with his recommendation. > > See attached! Is this, perhaps the one you > are looking for? > > > Roger Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369945#369945 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 03, 2012
> the field breaker is now popping as soon as the alternator switch is closed If I understand correctly, you are turning on the alternator switch AFTER the engine is running. What happens if the alternator switch is turned on BEFORE starting the engine? Does the breaker still pop? I suggest that the terminals on the voltage regulator be examined carefully to be sure that there is a good tight connection with no corrosion. Also check that the regulator is well grounded to the system ground bus with no corrosion. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369951#369951 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: "Jim P" <piavis(at)comcast.net>
Date: Apr 03, 2012
I've actually tried both ways, and both pop the breaker. The contacts on the LR-3 look good, and all the grounds are good. I did pull the regulator if B&C wanted me to sent it in. If not, I may just create jumpers to confirm wiring, but there's always the possibility that the alternator would be bad I suspect. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369957#369957 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
From: "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 03, 2012
Got it in a PM. Thanks, Eric eschlanser wrote: > Roger or forum users, > I cannot seem to open the attachment. It appears on my screen as a winmail.dat file rather than an adobe pdf or other file that my computer can open. I am seeing the file in the aeroelectric forum at the matronics lists. > Thanks for any help, > Eric > > > mrspudandcompany(at)veriz wrote: > > Yes but, > > I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not > > require machining any part of the case. It also did (as I recall) have you > > completely remove the internal regulator. So the process of conversion was > > different as I recall. All accomplished with simple hand tools. Perhaps > > Bob will chime in with his recommendation. > > > > See attached! Is this, perhaps the one you > > are looking for? > > > > > > Roger > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369964#369964 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: mapratherid <mapratherid(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 03, 2012
Seems like the field is shorted. If you disconnect the field wire from the alternator, does it still trip the breaker? I'm suspicious of a wiring fault. Or possibly a fault in the alternator. As another asked, does it only trip with the engine running? Matt- On Apr 3, 2012, at 10:49 AM, "Jim P" wrote: > > I've actually tried both ways, and both pop the breaker. The contacts on the LR-3 look good, and all the grounds are good. I did pull the regulator if B&C wanted me to sent it in. > > If not, I may just create jumpers to confirm wiring, but there's always the possibility that the alternator would be bad I suspect. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369957#369957 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: "Jim P" <piavis(at)comcast.net>
Date: Apr 03, 2012
Yes, only when the engine is running. It does not trip with battery, and it didn't trip with a power supply attached to the B-lead with engine shut-down. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369967#369967 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 03, 2012
From: Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: please help me...........Rick
Thx Bob - Rick- - #40956 Southampton, Ont --- On Tue, 4/3/12, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: please help me...........Rick Received: Tuesday, April 3, 2012, 2:42 AM s.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> At 08:34 PM 4/2/2012, you wrote: > Guys, sorry about the message below.- It appears someone somehow hijack ed my yahoo account.- I've changed the password for now and depending on what the Yahoo administration says I may change the whole account.- The w orst thing about this is that all my saved emails containing tips/advise ha ve been deleted. Hopefully Yahoo can restore them. > Again, sorry about this.............Rick - Nothing to be sorry for on our account. It's unfortunate - that some individuals have to exist so distant from - the boundaries of honorable behavior. Decades ago they - had to get 'up close' . . . nowadays, they can work their - evil from anywhere on the planet. Our condolences . . . and - best wishes for a graceful recovery. - Bob . . . le, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 03, 2012
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
Someone recently sent me off-the-shelf part numbers that can be used to convert some Nippon Denso alternators to external regulation with bolt-on parts. I don't have time now to dig up the info, but if you're not in a hurry, I'll try to find it within the next few days. Charlie On 04/02/2012 12:39 PM, B Tomm wrote: > > Wow, I didn't think my question would hit such a sensitive nerve. In > the same league as a primer war. > > My question was about the "how" but many of you are interested in > discussing the "why". Here's where I'm coming from. > > For better or worse, the decision was made a long time ago to > configure my electrical system for external regulation ala Bob M. Now > I'm getting close to needing an alternator and looking at the > options. I will have an SD-8 backup alternator and therefore don't > consider the main alternator as being required to be of the absolute > best quality. It just needs to have a failure mode that does not > affect other more expensive electronics. As far as I know, there are > no "100% guaranteed to work for ever" alternators anyway. So my > theory is to have a spare in the hangar ready to go or to be brought > to me when/if a failure occurs. I'm thinking I would rather have two > $100 alternators that I have converted to external regulation and > tested than one $595 alternator and no spare. > > When, converting two to external regulation I will learn something and > decide whether I can do this when away from my regular tool box. I > may be too far from my spare and have to buy an internally regulated > one and convert it out in the field. I seem to recall that it's not > too difficult of a process. More like a removal of unnecessary > parts. Something I am usually pretty good at. I plan on keeping some > maintenance papers in the plane's tool bag anyway, one of which could > be the alternator process. > > My thoughts only. You may have another opinion and that's fine with me. > > Bevan > > "I like to build and fix things" > > > _____________________________________________ > *From: * owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [_mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com_] *On Behalf Of* > ROGER & JEAN CURTIS > > *Sent: * Monday, April 02, 2012 9:12 AM > *To: * aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject: * RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg > alternator > > > Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day > only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the > reserve battery power give a safe reserve? > > Bob Verwey > > > The Conventional crowbar module is used with the external > regulator. The internal regulator does not work with the > external crowbar circuit. > > Roger > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 03, 2012
Since the breaker does not trip when the engine is off (with the alternator switch on), that tells me that the alternator is good and that the regulator and O.V. are not shorted to ground. Going by the symptoms that you described, I see 3 possible causes listed in order of likelihood: 1. High resistance in the voltage regulator sense circuit. The Alternator switch is one suspect. 2. Defective voltage regulator. 3. Defective over-voltage protection. Let's test for high resistance. With the engine off and the master and alternator switches on, connect a 35 watt 12V lamp between the regulator Sense terminal and the regulator case (not aircraft ground). The lamp should illuminate. Measure the voltage across the lamp. It should be close to the battery voltage. If the voltage across the lamp is low, then measure at various points in the Voltage Regulator Sense circuit until the location of the voltage drop is found. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369981#369981 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: IR alternator in Z-13/8
From: "rvtach" <rvtach(at)msn.com>
Date: Apr 03, 2012
Bob- All this recent talk about internal and external regulated alternators has reminded me that once upon a time (several years ago at an Aeroelectric Seminar in Prescott, AZ) you said that you were fairly close to coming up with a way to gracefully integrate an internally regulated alternator into a Z-13/8, or other AEC, system. The solution you described at that time would allow total control of the alternator by the pilot and would allow use of a crowbar OV protection. I've lost track of where this eventually wound up and was wondering anything ever came of this effort. Or did it simply become apparrent that just using the ER alternator is the way to go? I have an IR alternator and am trying to decide whether to just use it, replace it with an off the shelf ER alternator or have the local alternator modify it to ER. The Plane Power alternator would be an option as it seems like a well thought out piece of equipment but kind of lot of money for an alternator. I try to keep up with the rest of the class so I don't have to ask questions that have already been discussed but I haven't been able to find the answer to this question in the archives and I don't remember reading anything about this specific question. I appreciate any information about this and I will always be grateful for everything I have learned in your school Bob. Thanks for everything. -------- Jim McChesney Tucson, AZ RV-7A Finishing Kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369987#369987 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
Date: Apr 03, 2012
Thanks Charlie, I have found the info I was initially looking for (and then some) but what you're talking about is very interesting too. I would be interested whenever you have the time to dig it up. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 2:08 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator Someone recently sent me off-the-shelf part numbers that can be used to convert some Nippon Denso alternators to external regulation with bolt-on parts. I don't have time now to dig up the info, but if you're not in a hurry, I'll try to find it within the next few days. Charlie On 04/02/2012 12:39 PM, B Tomm wrote: Wow, I didn't think my question would hit such a sensitive nerve. In the same league as a primer war. My question was about the "how" but many of you are interested in discussing the "why". Here's where I'm coming from. For better or worse, the decision was made a long time ago to configure my electrical system for external regulation ala Bob M. Now I'm getting close to needing an alternator and looking at the options. I will have an SD-8 backup alternator and therefore don't consider the main alternator as being required to be of the absolute best quality. It just needs to have a failure mode that does not affect other more expensive electronics. As far as I know, there are no "100% guaranteed to work for ever" alternators anyway. So my theory is to have a spare in the hangar ready to go or to be brought to me when/if a failure occurs. I'm thinking I would rather have two $100 alternators that I have converted to external regulation and tested than one $595 alternator and no spare. When, converting two to external regulation I will learn something and decide whether I can do this when away from my regular tool box. I may be too far from my spare and have to buy an internally regulated one and convert it out in the field. I seem to recall that it's not too difficult of a process. More like a removal of unnecessary parts. Something I am usually pretty good at. I plan on keeping some maintenance papers in the plane's tool bag anyway, one of which could be the alternator process. My thoughts only. You may have another opinion and that's fine with me. Bevan "I like to build and fix things" _____________________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [ mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 9:12 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the reserve battery power give a safe reserve? Bob Verwey The Conventional crowbar module is used with the external regulator. The internal regulator does not work with the external crowbar circuit. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: "Jim P" <piavis(at)comcast.net>
Date: Apr 03, 2012
I've done some of that troubleshooting. With the Battery / ALT ON at 12.21V, I actually get 12.20 at the OV sense terminal and 10.52V out of terminal #4 which is the field line. Bus voltage into the regulator is 11.93. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369995#369995 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 03, 2012
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Regulators/Zeftronics/R15V00_Ford_Style_Reulator.pdf 0.27 volts dropped between the OV sense terminal and VR sense terminal seems high. There could be a loose connection. A fully charged battery should have a voltage of about 12.8 volts. Attached is a circuit to test the OV protection. If the aircraft battery voltage is 12.2, connect two flashlight batteries in series with the OV ground wire. Note the polarity of the flashlight batteries. I would not expect the OV protection to trip the circuit breaker at 15.4 volts (12.2 + 1.6 + 1.6). If the OV does trip the breaker, then the OV needs to be adjusted to a higher trip point (16v). Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370003#370003 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ov_test_102.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED WigWag with B&C SSF-1
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 04, 2012
I have been considering the Perihelion Wig-Wag to use with Teledyne LED Landing/Taxi lights. I will be interested in other options for the Wig-Wag module... Wig-Wag http://www.periheliondesign.com/wigwagmnl.htm LED Lights http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/teledynelandinglight.php Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370030#370030 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 04, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED WigWag with B&C SSF-1
At 11:01 AM 4/4/2012, you wrote: > >I have been considering the Perihelion Wig-Wag to use with Teledyne >LED Landing/Taxi lights. I will be interested in other options for >the Wig-Wag module... That one works and is, no doubt, suited to LED lighting fixtures Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 04, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps
At 06:19 PM 3/30/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, can I wire two LED landing and taxi lights per Page 3.0 (Ref DE >12/15/11) but using a single switch (already installed and labeled >in unflown RV-6) as shown on Page 3.0 from 2003? Thank you Give me a few days on this. It occurs to me that I've been twisting what WAS a good system for incandescent lamps into a pretzel in search of the elegant solution for LED lamps. --------------------------------------- As promised, I spend some time considering the ingredients that go into an alternative recipe for success. I began with the following design goals: All solid state Stand off 20V bus for 1 second or more Simple switching that does NOT require progressive transfer switch to achieve OFF/WW/ON operation of lights. Suitable for LED landing light fixtures Minimum parts count. While plying the asphalt between here and Wichita I sifted through the pieces and parts. Here's a first pass at the idea. http://tinyurl.com/6t7zry2 This device could be fabricated from surface mount parts and totally contained inside a 15-pin, d-sub housing for an end product that looks like this. Emacs! This circuit also lends itself to a DIY effort with thru-hole parts mounted on a perf board. Mike, if you already have a 2-10 switch installed, it can be wired to function with this controller. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: "Jim P" <piavis(at)comcast.net>
Date: Apr 04, 2012
Thanks Joe, I'll run that test when I'm back out at the airport. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370039#370039 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Trade my 5a CB's for 7.5a
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Apr 04, 2012
I just purchased and installed two 5a breakers where 7.5a were called for. Can't return them so if you have 2x7.5a and need 5's, raise your hand. I have the new smaller, green ones from Klixon Thanks, John see http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/klixon2tc5.php Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370061#370061 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Ashura <ashuramj(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps
Date: Apr 04, 2012
Bob, thank you for the schematic. I guess this is the part where the "education" part comes in with my project. The "U" devices already have my curiosity... BTW, how does a person see the picture where the Emacs! occurs? Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 05, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps
At 11:03 PM 4/4/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, thank you for the schematic. I guess this is the part where >the "education" part comes in with my project. The "U" devices >already have my curiosity... Good question. Reference designators starting with "U" are generally integrated circuits. In this instance, U109 is a CD4093, quad 2-input, NAND gate with schmidt-trigger inputs. http://tinyurl.com/ckr5ls9 The schematic for this device gets discorporated into 4 sections A thru D. But if you check the pin numbers assigned to the collection of gates you will find that they all add up to 14 . . . the number of pins on the single device. >BTW, how does a person see the picture where the Emacs! occurs? > >Mike You can go to the Matronics server where the messages are archived. http://tinyurl.com/864kunv Select AeroElectric-List and scroll down to the thread of interest . . in this case: http://tinyurl.com/7mg3mwk This would be an excellent project for someone who wants to stick their toe into the puddle of electronics technologies. This circuit would assemble nicely on a piece of Radio Shack perfboard http://tinyurl.com/732bwo3 The whole bill of materials is less than $10. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 05, 2012
> BTW, how does a person see the picture where the Emacs! occurs? Go here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=89537&sid=ede9bd402953309c61e2cb5a7b20db17 Or go here for future Emacs! pictures: http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3 Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370102#370102 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 04, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
Ah! Since anecdotal evidence is apparently compelling, my Ford had a runaway alternator, which resulted in a battery explosion, which peppered the underside of the hood with acid burns. Bummer. Paul On 4/2/2012 7:10 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: > > > I have been flying over 12 years on a Bosch (rebuilt) alternator with > internal regulator - with no problems. The only downside I can see is > that once it has bootstrapped itself, removing voltage to the field > coil does not stop the output. So if I had a runaway alternator it > could theoretically fry my electronics - on the other hand, in all my > life of driving automobiles and the one or two alternator failures > (failed diodes), I've never had a runaway alternator failure mode. > > FWIW > > Ed > > Edward L. Anderson > Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC > 305 Reefton Road > Weddington, NC 28104 > http://www.andersonee.com > http://www.eicommander.com > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 9:43 AM > To: > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator > >> >> >> Eric is easily amused... >> >> try: >> >> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Converting+to+externally+regulated+alternator >> >> But here is where I will annoy Bob N.: Consider the fact that if >> automobile regulators had a lower failure rate if they were >> externally regulated, auto makers would use them. The fact is that >> BRAND NEW (not rebuilt) Nippon Denso alternators seem to have a >> nearly-zero failure rate. >> >> Then make your decision. I have had several builders send me their >> external regulators for examination. This cemented my opinion >> permanently. >> >> -------- >> Eric M. Jones >> www.PerihelionDesign.com >> 113 Brentwood Drive >> Southbridge, MA 01550 >> (508) 764-2072 >> emjones(at)charter.net >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369828#369828 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 04, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
Another anecdotal observation... my Buick Park Avenue had a 135 amp, internally regulated alternator. It would fail, like clockwork, every 45,000 miles (I drove the car to 222,000 miles). I had one examined, and discovered the internal regulator had overheated, apparently, and failed. On the GM transversely mounted six, the alternator is on top... so no crawling underneath required. I got very good at the R&R process. Paul On 4/2/2012 11:32 AM, longg(at)pjm.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > Beven, > > According to Mr. Google, this should take about 30 minutes. http://www.wallaceracing.com/alt-conversion.html > > It looks like it's more popular to covert externals to internals (at least in the automotive world where the externals always failed). > > Funny, I don't see too many folks lying under their cars on the turnpike pulling out their internally regulated jobs. I've run many a car well past 100k and never had the alternator go. That's why I've got an IR in my bird. I took have an SD-8. Wouldn't leave home without it. > > Occasionally I talk to pilots who piss and moan about how they had to fly their so and so to the alternator shop so they could have Mr. Alternator specialist provide a special part for their regulator. No Thanks > > Cut those wires and go fly. It's summer time. > > Glenn, N57 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Tomm > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:39 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator > > Wow, I didn't think my question would hit such a sensitive nerve. In the same league as a primer war. > > My question was about the "how" but many of you are interested in discussing the "why". Here's where I'm coming from. > > For better or worse, the decision was made a long time ago to configure my electrical system for external regulation ala Bob M. Now I'm getting close to needing an alternator and looking at the options. I will have an SD-8 backup alternator and therefore don't consider the main alternator as being required to be of the absolute best quality. It just needs to have a failure mode that does not affect other more expensive electronics. As far as I know, there are no "100% guaranteed to work for ever" alternators anyway. So my theory is to have a spare in the hangar ready to go or to be brought to me when/if a failure occurs. I'm thinking I would rather have two $100 alternators that I have converted to external regulation and tested than one $595 alternator and no spare. > > When, converting two to external regulation I will learn something and decide whether I can do this when away from my regular tool box. I may be too far from my spare and have to buy an internally regulated one and convert it out in the field. I seem to recall that it's not too difficult of a process. More like a removal of unnecessary parts. Something I am usually pretty good at. I plan on keeping some maintenance papers in the plane's tool bag anyway, one of which could be the alternator process. > > My thoughts only. You may have another opinion and that's fine with me. > > Bevan > > "I like to build and fix things" > > >> _____________________________________________ >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> ROGER& JEAN CURTIS >> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 9:12 AM >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg >> alternator >> >> >> Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day >> only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the >> reserve battery power give a safe reserve? >> >> Bob Verwey >> >> >> The Conventional crowbar module is used with the external regulator. >> The internal regulator does not work with the external crowbar circuit. >> >> Roger > > -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
At 08:43 PM 4/4/2012, you wrote: > >Ah! Since anecdotal evidence is apparently compelling, my Ford had >a runaway alternator, which resulted in a battery explosion, which >peppered the underside of the hood with acid burns. Bummer. > >Paul Good morning Paul, long time no hear! As I was talking to the chief engineer at MPA about this experiences with alternators, it would have been interesting to know how what percentage of alternators coming in the door had failed regulators . . . and what the failure modes were. The only alternators that they routinely examined for fault analysis were those returned on warranty. As I stated in the narrative of my visit the rate of returns had mostly to do with the skills of the installer. An exceedingly small number of warranty returns had any failures at all. Of course, ALL alternators coming through the rebuild stream had been replaced for reasons some mechanic thought were good. At the same time, I've encountered few mechanics that REALLY understand how the alternator works and how to accurately troubleshoot systems that exhibit less than gross failure. Virtually none of the normal work stream was evaluated for failure modes. It would have been VERY interesting to see how many had failed regulators in a runaway mode. But alas, 22,000 items passed through that facility every day. Any effort to glean such information from those carcasses would have been very difficult/expensive. The bottom line is that the best source of data we have comes from the aviation community . . . and that data will be anecdotal at best. The bright side is that the astute system designer needs only to know that risk for regulator failure in any system is not zero and happily, insurance against such failures is inexpensive. As the personable spokesperson for Allstate might suggest, "You're in good hands with OV protection." Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: OT: low voltage bulb base *NOT LAMP HOLDER*
Date: Apr 06, 2012
Raymond; Here's a link to a fairly extensive selection of both empty bases and also bases with wire leads in place of the lamp element. Scroll waaaay down for some of them. http://tinyurl.com/7mmne4u Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayj > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 11:55 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: low voltage bulb base *NOT LAMP HOLDER* > > > Greetings, > > I finally got around to further attempts to salvage lamp bases. I tried > every solvent I had on the shelf. From water to acetone to MEK. The > bulbs were soaked for about a week in each. No luck with any of them. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: OT: low voltage bulb base *NOT LAMP HOLDER*
At 10:29 AM 4/6/2012, you wrote: > > >http://tinyurl.com/7mmne4u Interesting array of products! Thanks for the heads-up. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2012
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Bob, all, Forgive my lack of knowledge here, but I don't understand the problem here. I use the Z-17 architecture that has the Rotax dynamo output connected to the battery via relay. If the relay is powered down the dynamos output goes to ground through a capacitor. At least that's my understanding. If that is correct, why can't a single wire alternator be controlled in the same way. In the event of a voltage regulator failure and a runaway alternator ensues would not the overvoltage module do the same to a relay connecting the single wire to the battery? Obviously this sounds simple for an electronic illiterate like me. What am I missing that makes such a scenario unworkable. Rick Girard On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**> > > > At 08:43 PM 4/4/2012, you wrote: > >> >> Ah! Since anecdotal evidence is apparently compelling, my Ford had a >> runaway alternator, which resulted in a battery explosion, which peppered >> the underside of the hood with acid burns. Bummer. >> >> Paul >> > > Good morning Paul, long time no hear! > > As I was talking to the chief engineer at > MPA about this experiences with alternators, > it would have been interesting to know how > what percentage of alternators coming in > the door had failed regulators . . . and what > the failure modes were. > > The only alternators that they routinely examined > for fault analysis were those returned on > warranty. As I stated in the narrative of my visit > the rate of returns had mostly to do with the > skills of the installer. An exceedingly small > number of warranty returns had any failures at > all. > > Of course, ALL alternators coming through the > rebuild stream had been replaced for reasons > some mechanic thought were good. At the same > time, I've encountered few mechanics that > REALLY understand how the alternator works and > how to accurately troubleshoot systems that > exhibit less than gross failure. > > Virtually none of the normal work stream was > evaluated for failure modes. It would have > been VERY interesting to see how many had > failed regulators in a runaway mode. But alas, > 22,000 items passed through that facility > every day. Any effort to glean such information > from those carcasses would have been very > difficult/expensive. > > The bottom line is that the best source of > data we have comes from the aviation community > . . . and that data will be anecdotal at best. > The bright side is that the astute system > designer needs only to know that risk for > regulator failure in any system is not zero > and happily, insurance against such failures > is inexpensive. > > As the personable spokesperson for Allstate > might suggest, "You're in good hands with > OV protection." > > > Bob . . . > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 07, 2012
The Rotax dynamo does not have a field winding. Thus, the only way to shut it off is by opening the B lead (or shutting off the engine). A 20 amp relay is capable of opening the Rotax dynamo output. However, a 60 amp alternator would require a much larger relay or contactor to open the B lead. It is much easier to open the 3 amp alternator field circuit. As for the Rotax capacitor, it can not conduct DC current. It is irrelevant whether the relay contacts are open or closed. The purpose of the capacitor is to smooth the pulsing DC output of the rectified single phase dynamo current. Joe > Bob, all, Forgive my lack of knowledge here, but I don't understand the problem here. I use the Z-17 architecture that has the Rotax dynamo output connected to the battery via relay. If the relay is powered down the dynamos output goes to ground through a capacitor. At least that's my understanding. If that is correct, why can't a single wire alternator be controlled in the same way. In the event of a voltage regulator failure and a runaway alternator ensues would not the overvoltage module do the same to a relay connecting the single wire to the battery? Obviously this sounds simple for an electronic illiterate like me. What am I missing that makes such a scenario unworkable. > Rick Girard -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370206#370206 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
At 10:32 PM 4/6/2012, you wrote: >Bob, all, Forgive my lack of knowledge here, but I don't understand >the problem here. I use the Z-17 architecture that has the Rotax >dynamo output connected to the battery via relay. If the relay is >powered down the dynamos output goes to ground through a capacitor. >At least that's my understanding. If that is correct, why can't a >single wire alternator be controlled in the same way. In the event >of a voltage regulator failure and a runaway alternator ensues would >not the overvoltage module do the same to a relay connecting the >single wire to the battery? Obviously this sounds simple for an >electronic illiterate like me. What am I missing that makes such a >scenario unworkable. > >Rick Girard > >On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III ><nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: ><nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > >At 08:43 PM 4/4/2012, you wrote: ><millner(at)me.com> > >Ah! Since anecdotal evidence is apparently compelling, my Ford had >a runaway alternator, which resulted in a battery explosion, which >peppered the underside of the hood with acid burns. Bummer. > >Paul > > > Good morning Paul, long time no hear! > > As I was talking to the chief engineer at > MPA about this experiences with alternators, > it would have been interesting to know how > what percentage of alternators coming in > the door had failed regulators . . . and what > the failure modes were. > > The only alternators that they routinely examined > for fault analysis were those returned on > warranty. As I stated in the narrative of my visit > the rate of returns had mostly to do with the > skills of the installer. An exceedingly small > number of warranty returns had any failures at > all. > > Of course, ALL alternators coming through the > rebuild stream had been replaced for reasons > some mechanic thought were good. At the same > time, I've encountered few mechanics that > REALLY understand how the alternator works and > how to accurately troubleshoot systems that > exhibit less than gross failure. > > Virtually none of the normal work stream was > evaluated for failure modes. It would have > been VERY interesting to see how many had > failed regulators in a runaway mode. But alas, > 22,000 items passed through that facility > every day. Any effort to glean such information > from those carcasses would have been very > difficult/expensive. > > The bottom line is that the best source of > data we have comes from the aviation community > . . . and that data will be anecdotal at best. > The bright side is that the astute system > designer needs only to know that risk for > regulator failure in any system is not zero > and happily, insurance against such failures > is inexpensive. > > As the personable spokesperson for Allstate > might suggest, "You're in good hands with > OV protection." > > > Bob . . . > >=================================== >-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >=================================== >http://forums.matronics.com >=================================== >le, List Admin. >="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >=================================== > > >-- >Zulu Delta >Mk IIIC >Thanks, Homer GBYM > >It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. > - Groucho Marx > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
At 10:32 PM 4/6/2012, you wrote: >Bob, all, Forgive my lack of knowledge here, but I don't understand >the problem here. I use the Z-17 architecture that has the Rotax >dynamo output connected to the battery via relay. If the relay is >powered down the dynamos output goes to ground through a capacitor. >At least that's my understanding. If that is correct, why can't a >single wire alternator be controlled in the same way. In the event >of a voltage regulator failure and a runaway alternator ensues would >not the overvoltage module do the same to a relay connecting the >single wire to the battery? Obviously this sounds simple for an >electronic illiterate like me. What am I missing that makes such a >scenario unworkable. Actually, it can. In fact, that is the control philosophy originally depicted in Z-24 found at: http://tinyurl.com/7z6yzv9 The reasoning behind this configuration was simple. If you've got a runaway alternator for which there are no external controls, the only remedy left is to simply isolate the offending machine from the rest of the aircraft's electrical system. Notice the similarity of the Z-24 architecture with that of Z-17 found at: http://tinyurl.com/7mh9k3c Again, the engine driven power source (whether fielded by a permanent magnet -OR- a fixed magnet) offers no means by which one may apply external controls. At some time (post Z-17) it was reasoned that the root cause for any runaway condition on an alternator was a regulator failure. In the case of PM alternators, we had ready access to the AC output of the energy source driving the rectifier/regulator. Given that AC current is many times less abusive to relay contacts in the disconnect mode, it seemed prudent to MOVE the disconnect relay to the windings of the PM alternator BEFORE the regulator. Hence Z-16 was offered: http://tinyurl.com/7vp9g4e EITHER philosophy of OV management described above meets design goals for isolation of the offending alternator from the rest of the system. Z-16 might be described as more elegant. Now, let's take what we've discussed above and see how it speaks to Z-24. Further, let's discuss some special cases for the b-lead disconnect philosophy as it relates to self excited, electrically fielded alternators. The PM alternator is fixed field . . . PERIOD. Maximum output voltage is a function of RPM . . . PERIOD. The electrically excited alternator with a field coil connected internally to the B-lead is another breed of animal entirely. As I discussed in the article at: http://tinyurl.com/7cormux the automotive alternator is demonstrably capable of very high output voltages when supplied with a fixed field (like a PM alternator) and still higher voltages when the field is supplied from the alternator's own runaway output . . . A stone-simple b-lead disconnect system was conceived for the larger wound-field machines and published as Z-24. In the article published at: http://tinyurl.com/5n989y we explore the special cases for using this control philosophy. The new considerations for design arose from two major differences between the PM alternator control (z-17/z-16) and wound field alternator control (z-24). (ISSUE 1) As one attempts to open the b-lead on a runaway alternator, the contactor is opening against a tightly wound voltage 'spring' if you will. In the first few milliseconds after onset of the ov condition, the alternator is attempting to push the bus voltage up but will be held at bay by the valiant efforts of the battery. None the less, output current for the alternator will be at the machine's magnetic limits, probably just above rated design current. As the contacts open, voltage rise across the spreading contacts is very fast and will no doubt establish an arc in the widening space that is not unlike that which I described in the narrative about MPA's demonstrations of b-lead disconnects in the latest revision to chapter 3 of the connection. The flash of fire was so intense as to blinding to both the human observer -AND- the lowly video camera. Deleterious to the contactor? Probably. But even if the contactor is toasted by the effective disconnection of a runaway alternator, the original design goal is achieved. The radios are not toasted too. Remedy? One could install a contactor with better ratings for high voltage disconnect like: http://tinyurl.com/83kf237 (ISSUE 2) Early in the history of Z-24, it seems that some OBAM aircraft builders used the control switch to cycle their alternators ON/OFF while under load. This lead to what the automotive industry calls a "load dump" wherein the built in regulator is unable to respond fast enough to bring a suddenly unloaded alternator back under control. Hence, the alternator's output launches for the moon. In a load-dump case, the rise is expected to be transient. Assuming the alternator is well designed, the short term ov condition is quickly brought to heel and all is right with the universe. Unfortunately, all alternators are not created equal. The alternators installed on these airplanes were demonstrably incapable of standing off the b-lead disconnect transients demonstrated for me in MPA's laboratories. These alternators suffered failures attributed to poor design of Z-24. I suspect that individuals who experienced these failures abandoned use of any form of automatic OV runaway management. Over the years, we've learned that Z-24, when applied to a realistically designed alternator and fitted with a robust contactor is probably about as bullet-proof as design goals dictate. "But wait, call in the next ten minutes and we'll . . . .", heard that one before. In this case, the feature just out of reach is described in the article cited above . . . don't click this link again, you already have http://tinyurl.com/5n989y Here I've proposed a next generation control philosophy. A philosophy dependent on being able to run alternators at their rated outputs in a test environment. To that end I acquired an alternator test stand http://tinyurl.com/79k9lm2 and set out to modify it for emulation of the architecture of every architecture in the z-figures up to and including Z-14. This offered some obstacles not the least of which was a big honk'n 3-phase motor . . . http://tinyurl.com/7qlhaqf which demanded an adapter be added at the end of a 60 amp feeder I ran out to my garage on Bainbridge. The modification was well along when it was interrupted by a move to Medicine Lodge with a host of new demands on my time. However, it would be useful to describe the functionality of the next generation controller. The AEC9004 'black box' contains a micro-controller programmed to do the following. (a) watch the b-lead terminal for signs of overvoltage. (b) when and if an ov condition is detected, power is removed from the b-lead contactor coil. (c) the differential voltage across the contactor is monitored for first signs of the alternator side being more positive than the battery side by say 1 volt or so. (d) at that time a power MOS-FET good for hundreds of amps is biased on hard and throws a dead short across the b-lead terminals of the alternator. A kind of "software crowbar" approach to ov management. This sounds brutal . . . but is in fact quite gentle. An alternator is incapable of delivering much more output current than it's nameplate rating. Hence, the FET need only sink perhaps 60 or 70 amps to ground as soon as it is safe to do so. I.e. the BATTERY must be disconnected before the crowbar is triggered. Since the alternator's output is folded back to the field winding, the act of pulling the b-lead to ground deprives the field of voltage necessary to feed and sustain the runaway. Hence, everything comes to a benign state of rest in milliseconds after the FET is turned on. I've not been able to test it yet but it is my expectation that the 'current' flowing in the crowbar FET during the OFF condition for an alternator will be under 1 amp. That current being delivered by the residual magnetism of the rotor. The cool thing about this philosophy is that all the issues for voltage rating of the contactor -AND- worries about load-dump transients are mitigated. This control system could be applied to an alternator of any pedigree with minimal concerns for damage. Further, it installs a one-wire alternator in an airplane while offering the legacy design goals for (1) any-time/any-condition ON/OFF control of the alternator and (2) timely response to mitigation of an OV condition. I'm now considering the use of my truck engine driven alternator test bed. Some years ago, a List member donated a new one-wire alternator to the task and it has been mounted on a frame to belt drive it from a 2 hp tread-mill motor. Preliminary work at low power can be accomplished with this fixture with high power work to be done on the truck. In the mean time, Z-24 as published is a valid philosophy for getting a one-wire alternator installed today. Further, Z-24 easily morphs to the next generation configuration when that hardware achieves production reality. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery
Date: Apr 07, 2012
Subaru engine with dual electrical system including pair of Odyssey PC625's. Left one battery master switch on all night! 6 yr. old PC625 on that master reading only 6.4 volts. Optimizer battery charger gives error indicating "CHARGER/BATTERY FAULT. Charging stopped". Since I was going to replace the batteries anyway before first flight went ahead and bought new PC625. Charger charges it and remaining 6 year old battery just fine. Would love to have a 12 volt battery sitting on the work bench. So - - - is there any method to bring this battery back to life for bench use only? Odyssey PC625 AGM battery and Xenotronics Optimizer Model SX100-1. Thanks, Allen Fulmer RV7 finishing up wiring details before closing top skin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: ELT Antenna Mount
Date: Apr 07, 2012
Please see attached picture: Please understand that my intention is not to be critical, but to learn. Is this an effective way to mount an ELT antenna? I understand why this builder chose to mount it this way. But I have concerns that there is a great deal of signal-blocking structure very close to the antenna. What do you RF gurus think? -RF neophyte ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Apr 07, 2012
Well certainly the omni-directional characteristics of the 1/4 wave antenna a re ruined, the vswr, is probably affected, it's horizontally polarized and n icely shielded......It might still work but you'll never know until you need it. If you want to hide ALL the antennas inside structure you probably need a glass plane.... ;-) Tim Cozy Mk IV Sent from my iPad On Apr 7, 2012, at 10:32 AM, "Jeff Luckey" wrote: > Please see attached picture: > > Please understand that my intention is not to be critical, but to learn > > Is this an effective way to mount an ELT antenna? > > I understand why this builder chose to mount it this way. But I have conc erns that there is a great deal of signal-blocking structure very close to t he antenna. > > What do you RF gurus think? > > -RF neophyte > > > <2009.05.02 - RV-8 - ELT Ameri-King AK-451 With GPS Input Installation (12 ).jpg> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
>> As the personable spokesperson for Allstate might suggest, "You're in good hands with OV protection." Certainly we're better off with overvoltage protection than relying on our friends at the major insurance companies... our house burned down in a major wild fire 21 years ago, and Allstate and State Farm were guilty of reprehensible conduct. I'll stick with OV protection! :-) Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Date: Apr 07, 2012
Jeff, << Is this an effective way to mount an ELT antenna? >> In terms of ideal electronic performance, it is a poor location. In terns of intended mission it is excellent. The tail cone location makes it very likely the antenna will survive a crash. There are enough gaps to make it likely a satellite would be able to receive a signal. It looks like you have an RV model. In that case a better place for an ELT antenna would be under the rear portion of the canopy. But what you have will certainly be more reliable than any external mount. Tom Kuffel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery
Date: Apr 07, 2012
You may have well and truly damaged the battery, permanently. However, it could be that your 'smart charger' is refusing to even try to charge the battery under the assumption that it is unrecoverable (typically due to a shorted cell). Try putting a 'dumb' charger of 1 to 3 amps on the battery for a couple of hours, long enough to get the voltage of the batter up above 10 volts) then replace the dumb charger with the 'smart' charger and see if the smart charger will recover the battery. It may be that that the dumb charger will not get the battery above 8 or 9 volts, confirming that one of the six cells is shorted out in which case, consider using the battery as a door stop. cheers, -john- _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Fulmer Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 9:12 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery Subaru engine with dual electrical system including pair of Odyssey PC625's. Left one battery master switch on all night! 6 yr. old PC625 on that master reading only 6.4 volts. Optimizer battery charger gives error indicating "CHARGER/BATTERY FAULT. Charging stopped". Since I was going to replace the batteries anyway before first flight went ahead and bought new PC625. Charger charges it and remaining 6 year old battery just fine. Would love to have a 12 volt battery sitting on the work bench. So - - - is there any method to bring this battery back to life for bench use only? Odyssey PC625 AGM battery and Xenotronics Optimizer Model SX100-1. Thanks, Allen Fulmer RV7 finishing up wiring details before closing top skin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery
Date: Apr 07, 2012
You can probably bring it back with diminished capacity - it could be great as a bench-test battery; but you will need an old-school, stupid charger. And you may have to charge & discharge a few times. Your smart charger has correctly detected that this battery is in trouble, and has refused to charge it. (Imagine that - Attitude from a battery charger! What's next? . Grouchy toasters ;) I've been successful reviving a couple of batts with this technique. But I would NEVER fly with it! _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Fulmer Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 08:12 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery Subaru engine with dual electrical system including pair of Odyssey PC625's. Left one battery master switch on all night! 6 yr. old PC625 on that master reading only 6.4 volts. Optimizer battery charger gives error indicating "CHARGER/BATTERY FAULT. Charging stopped". Since I was going to replace the batteries anyway before first flight went ahead and bought new PC625. Charger charges it and remaining 6 year old battery just fine. Would love to have a 12 volt battery sitting on the work bench. So - - - is there any method to bring this battery back to life for bench use only? Odyssey PC625 AGM battery and Xenotronics Optimizer Model SX100-1. Thanks, Allen Fulmer RV7 finishing up wiring details before closing top skin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 07, 2012
Bob, Thanks for the info. What is the limiting factor on power to the LED's? I am planning to use the Teledyne LED lights that use 45 watts, so about 4 amps at 12 volts for each light. What changes would be needed to up the power capability by a factor of two. Different parts? Different packaging? Different connector? Heatsinks? What is the frequency of the wig-wag function and how is that set by the components? I am a software engineer so I know enough about hardware design to be dangerous, but I am in the process of learning more. Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370235#370235 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: ELT Antenna Mount
Date: Apr 07, 2012
Tom, To be clear, that picture is not of my airplane. I am building an RV-7 but have not started work on my fuselage. I'm trying to gather information for decisions I will be making in the near future. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of The Kuffels Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 09:55 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Mount Jeff, << Is this an effective way to mount an ELT antenna? >> In terms of ideal electronic performance, it is a poor location. In terns of intended mission it is excellent. The tail cone location makes it very likely the antenna will survive a crash. There are enough gaps to make it likely a satellite would be able to receive a signal. It looks like you have an RV model. In that case a better place for an ELT antenna would be under the rear portion of the canopy. But what you have will certainly be more reliable than any external mount. Tom Kuffel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2012
From: John Grosse <grosseair(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
I guess we could debate forever about what should or shouldn't be the rule, but I don't believe that was the original question. As far as the ELT in the picture goes: I don't believe it would comply with the manufacturer's TSO, and would for that reason not be an acceptable solution to me personally. Whether it would work as hoped in an emergency or be acceptable to your DAR is a question none of us can know for sure. It's your airplane, and you are free to decide based on your own priorities and how lucky you feel at the moment. John Grosse ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: "Jim P" <piavis(at)comcast.net>
Date: Apr 07, 2012
Continued trouble shooting today. Bill at B&C suggested a probable cause of bad field connectors at the alternator. Swapped connectors and all seems fine. Field pin at alternator to ground is 3.5 Ohms so that seems within limits. I ran a jumper wire from the regulator to the field and still see the same issue. I did note that I'm seeing about 15.9 - 16V just before the breaker opens so the alternator seems to be putting out voltage. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370244#370244 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery
I believe I saw on this list some time back a possible "cheat" for this situation. Connect a good battery and the dead battery in parallel with the charger. As I understand it the charger is "tricked" into operating and will then charge both batteries. I have brought dead batteries back with "dumb" chargers many times, though as others have said, I wouldn't use them in a critical application. Hope this helps. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 04/07/2012 02:04 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > You can probably bring it back with diminished capacity it could be > great as a bench-test battery; but you will need an old-school, > stupid charger. And you may have to charge & discharge a few times. > > Your smart charger has correctly detected that this battery is in > trouble, and has refused to charge it. (Imagine that Attitude from > a battery charger! Whats next? Grouchy toasters ;) > > Ive been successful reviving a couple of batts with this technique. > But I would NEVER fly with it! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Allen Fulmer *Sent:* Saturday, April 07, 2012 08:12 *To:* > Aeroelectric-List *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Seems I killed one > Odyssey PC625 battery > > Subaru engine with dual electrical system including pair of Odyssey > PC625s. > > Left one battery master switch on all night! > > 6 yr. old PC625 on that master reading only 6.4 volts. > > Optimizer battery charger gives error indicating CHARGER/BATTERY > FAULT. Charging stopped. > > Since I was going to replace the batteries anyway before first flight > went ahead and bought new PC625. Charger charges it and remaining 6 > year old battery just fine. > > Would love to have a 12 volt battery sitting on the work bench. > > So - - - is there any method to bring this battery back to life for > bench use only? > > Odyssey PC625 AGM battery and Xenotronics Optimizer Model SX100-1. > > Thanks, > > Allen Fulmer > > RV7 finishing up wiring details before closing top skin. > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery
Date: Apr 07, 2012
...That probably will fool the charger however, I am not so sure about the amperage action between the 2 batteries when connected. I think the fully charged batt. will flash charge the dead batt. with a lot of current at least for the several seconds. Would that be enough to burn up the connecting wire or cause the dead one to do something odd or dangerous..? If tried, I would put some type of resistance between the good and dead battery so the initial inrush current is limited to some reasonable level, maybe 20 amps or less. Hopefully Bob will inject here and fine tune the idea...... Dave ______________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "rayj" <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:26 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery > > I believe I saw on this list some time back a possible "cheat" for this > situation. Connect a good battery and the dead battery in parallel with > the charger. As I understand it the charger is "tricked" into operating > and will then charge both batteries. I have brought dead batteries back > with "dumb" chargers many times, though as others have said, I wouldn't > use them in a critical application. > > Hope this helps. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > On 04/07/2012 02:04 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: >> You can probably bring it back with diminished capacity it could be >> great as a bench-test battery; but you will need an old-school, >> stupid charger. And you may have to charge & discharge a few times. >> >> Your smart charger has correctly detected that this battery is in >> trouble, and has refused to charge it. (Imagine that Attitude from >> a battery charger! Whats next? Grouchy toasters ;) >> >> Ive been successful reviving a couple of batts with this technique. >> But I would NEVER fly with it! >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> >> > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of >> *Allen Fulmer *Sent:* Saturday, April 07, 2012 08:12 *To:* >> Aeroelectric-List *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Seems I killed one >> Odyssey PC625 battery >> >> Subaru engine with dual electrical system including pair of Odyssey >> PC625s. >> >> Left one battery master switch on all night! >> >> 6 yr. old PC625 on that master reading only 6.4 volts. >> >> Optimizer battery charger gives error indicating CHARGER/BATTERY >> FAULT. Charging stopped. >> >> Since I was going to replace the batteries anyway before first flight >> went ahead and bought new PC625. Charger charges it and remaining 6 >> year old battery just fine. >> >> Would love to have a 12 volt battery sitting on the work bench. >> >> So - - - is there any method to bring this battery back to life for >> bench use only? >> >> Odyssey PC625 AGM battery and Xenotronics Optimizer Model SX100-1. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Allen Fulmer >> >> RV7 finishing up wiring details before closing top skin. >> >> * * >> >> * * >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> *http://forums.matronics.com* >> >> ** >> >> ** >> >> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* >> >> * * >> >> * >> >> >> * > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 07, 2012
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
>From Wikipedia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hale_Boggs#Disappearance_in_Ala ska> : Disappearance and searchAs Majority Leader, Boggs often campaigned for > others. On October 16, 1972, he was aboard a twin engine Cessna 310 with > Representative Nick Begich of Alaska, who was facing a possible tight rac e > in the November 1972 general election against the Republican candidate, D on > Young, when it disappeared during a flight from Anchorage to Juneau. The > only others on board were Begich=92s aide Russell Brown and the pilot, Do n > Jonz;[5] the four were heading to a campaign fundraiser for Begich. (Begi ch > won the 1972 election posthumously with 56 percent to Young's 44 percent, > though Young would win the special election to replace Begich and won eve ry > election through and including 2010.) > > Coast Guard, Navy, and Air Force planes searched for the party. On > November 24, 1972, after thirty-nine days, the search was abandoned. > Neither the wreckage of the plane nor the pilot's and passengers' remains > were ever found. The accident prompted Congress to pass a law mandating > Emergency Locator Transmitters in all U.S. civil aircraft. But back to the OP's question. As others have pointed out, it's more likely to physically survive a crash than an externally mounted ELT, but less likely to radiate its signal usefully. Another question is whether the antenna location is even legal. Assuming it is legal, then your choice as to if the internal location gives you the better chance at being found, or if not, if the improvement to an external location is worth the trouble of changing it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Date: Apr 07, 2012
John & Jeff, << I don't believe it would comply with the manufacturer's TSO, >> Usually the manufacturer's installation instructions address what must be done to comply with the TSO. For example, the 406 MHz ACK E-04 and the Airtex 406-4 say the unit must be mounted in a certain orientation to a structure of a certain strength, have an antenna cable of a maximum loss, use their supplied antenna mounted to a structure of a certain strength, etc. It does not mandate where the antenna is located. There are some recommendations but no TSO requirements. Thus I conclude, unless there is some very unusual wording in a specific ELT manufacturer's instructions, the far tailcone installation is legal. Note the multifrequency antennas for the above ELTs would not mechanically fit in the shown location. But as I said, a much better place would be under and near the rear edge of the canopy. It would meet the dual needs of crash survivability and reasonable satellite visibility. Tom Kuffel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED
lamps At 01:20 PM 4/7/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Thanks for the info. > >What is the limiting factor on power to the LED's? > >I am planning to use the Teledyne LED lights that use 45 watts, so >about 4 amps at 12 volts for each light. What changes would be >needed to up the power capability by a factor of two. Different parts? >Different packaging? Different connector? Heatsinks? Heatsinks. Just because a device is RATED at xx amps, doesn't mean that it will carry that current waving around in breeze . . . unless it's a strong breeze and maybe down around -40 or so. The parts as shown are good for over 10A if the FETs are thoughtfully accommodated with respect to getting rid of their heat. Actually, these fets might be okay at 5A with little or no heatsinking . . . didn't bother to run the numbers. But in any case, upsizing for the larger lamps is no big deal. >What is the frequency of the wig-wag function and how is that set >by the components? The 1M/1uF network sets flash rate. That combination with the 4093's I had in the bin gave about 340 mS in one state and 450 mS in the others. One of the characteristics of the cmos-gate astable is that the hysteresis band is not centered between Vcc/Vdd, hence the peg-leg gait of the flash pattern. Of course, this wouldn't hurt the serviceability of the device . . . in fact, folks would know who was inbound from many miles out by the pattern of your wig-wag. The 'fix' would be to add a resistor and diode in parallel with the 1M and adjust for better symmetry -OR- change the oscillator to a 555 timer -OR- add a divide by two flip-flop and double the frequency of the oscillator. The design goal was minimum parts count but with some additional 'silicon herbs and spices' . . . the flavor of the dish can be improved. > I am a software engineer so I know enough >about hardware design to be dangerous, but I am in the process >of learning more. Good for you! We all gotta start somewhere. My career got officially launched in the basement of an uncle who was big wig engineer for local power company. He taught me the early motions of soldering things together . . . with an iron that was the size of a billy club and took 20 minutes to warm up! Hmmm . . . if you can herd the bytes around in a microcontroller, there are some $1 devices from PIC that would take care of your flash timer and push-pull outputs to logic level gates on power fets. Of course, other inputs could be used to control OFF/WW/ON functionality. If you're interested in getting your feet wet in etched circuit board layout, check out the free CAD package from expresspcb.com It might even be that the end-product can be fitted into this stock enclosure Emacs! There's a gazillion ways to do this. Let's pick one that gets your juices going . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
At 03:03 PM 4/7/2012, you wrote: > >Continued trouble shooting today. Bill at B&C suggested a probable >cause of bad field connectors at the alternator. Swapped connectors >and all seems fine. Field pin at alternator to ground is 3.5 Ohms so >that seems within limits. I ran a jumper wire from the regulator to >the field and still see the same issue. I did note that I'm seeing >about 15.9 - 16V just before the breaker opens so the alternator >seems to be putting out voltage. If it is that high, then it seems likely that the ov protection system is doing what it was designed to do. If regulator portion of the LR3 is functioning correctly, then it's being mis-informed as to actual bus voltage or perhaps it has been adjusted too high. One way to sort through all the variables is do some testing that is outside the current constellation of potential problems. I suggest you mail it to B&C. Priority mail in a free padded envelope from the post office would get it there in a day or two. Same for the trip back. If the regulator is okay, then this greatly simplifies your task. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2012
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery
I would expect very little current flow and no need for added resistance between the two paralleled batteries. In a similar situation my dead battery was already high resistance. I could set the charge voltage most anywhere and no current would flow into the dead battery. Sometimes if a dead battery is held at normal voltage for awhile though it will begin to respond and slowly start to accept a charge. I think that is what you are trying to achieve. I've never seen significant current flow between two paralleled batteries although it is probably possible with multiple cells that are truly shorted. Slightly off topic. I find a power supply with limited current to be much more useful than a "bench" battery unless you are trying to spin a starter motor or something. The battery tends to smoke things when there is a short or a problem with the item under test. I use a homemade adjustable current limited power supply but prices are pretty reasonable for such things now. Ken On 07/04/2012 7:37 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > ...That probably will fool the charger however, I am not so sure about > the amperage action between the 2 batteries when connected. > > I think the fully charged batt. will flash charge the dead batt. with a > lot of current at least for the several seconds. Would that be enough to > burn up the connecting wire or cause the dead one to do something odd or > dangerous..? > > If tried, I would put some type of resistance between the good and dead > battery so the initial inrush current is limited to some reasonable > level, maybe 20 amps or less. > Hopefully Bob will inject here and fine tune the idea...... > Dave > > ______________________________________________ > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "rayj" <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:26 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery > > >> >> I believe I saw on this list some time back a possible "cheat" for this >> situation. Connect a good battery and the dead battery in parallel with >> the charger. As I understand it the charger is "tricked" into operating >> and will then charge both batteries. I have brought dead batteries back >> with "dumb" chargers many times, though as others have said, I wouldn't >> use them in a critical application. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> On 04/07/2012 02:04 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: >>> You can probably bring it back with diminished capacity it could be >>> great as a bench-test battery; but you will need an old-school, >>> stupid charger. And you may have to charge & discharge a few times. >>> >>> Your smart charger has correctly detected that this battery is in >>> trouble, and has refused to charge it. (Imagine that Attitude from >>> a battery charger! Whats next? Grouchy toasters ;) >>> >>> Ive been successful reviving a couple of batts with this technique. >>> But I would NEVER fly with it! >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of >>> *Allen Fulmer *Sent:* Saturday, April 07, 2012 08:12 *To:* >>> Aeroelectric-List *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Seems I killed one >>> Odyssey PC625 battery >>> >>> Subaru engine with dual electrical system including pair of Odyssey >>> PC625s. >>> >>> Left one battery master switch on all night! >>> >>> 6 yr. old PC625 on that master reading only 6.4 volts. >>> >>> Optimizer battery charger gives error indicating CHARGER/BATTERY >>> FAULT. Charging stopped. >>> >>> Since I was going to replace the batteries anyway before first flight >>> went ahead and bought new PC625. Charger charges it and remaining 6 >>> year old battery just fine. >>> >>> Would love to have a 12 volt battery sitting on the work bench. >>> >>> So - - - is there any method to bring this battery back to life for >>> bench use only? >>> >>> Odyssey PC625 AGM battery and Xenotronics Optimizer Model SX100-1. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Allen Fulmer >>> >>> RV7 finishing up wiring details before closing top skin. >>> >>> * * >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Apr 08, 2012
[quote="piavis(at)comcast.net"]I recently had the aircraft down for conditional inspection and after about 6 weeks started the aircraft, and when the alternator was brought on-line, the field breaker is now popping as soon as the alternator switch is closed. > [b] Dont know if I am reading this correctly. Could you be saying that this problem occurred immediately after the condition inspection? If so, it could be a LO-Tech problem, like what was touched / swapped / painted (insulated) / or removed during the inspection. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370285#370285 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery
Date: Apr 08, 2012
Ken makes an interesting point about current-limited power supplies vs batteries for bench testing. I have both, and I find that under some conditions the current-limiting can nuisance trip when used w/ high-inrush loads. If you are concerned about letting the magic smoke out of some device then put a fuse in the output of your bench-test battery, you get the best of both worlds easy & cheap. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 04:07 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery I would expect very little current flow and no need for added resistance between the two paralleled batteries. In a similar situation my dead battery was already high resistance. I could set the charge voltage most anywhere and no current would flow into the dead battery. Sometimes if a dead battery is held at normal voltage for awhile though it will begin to respond and slowly start to accept a charge. I think that is what you are trying to achieve. I've never seen significant current flow between two paralleled batteries although it is probably possible with multiple cells that are truly shorted. Slightly off topic. I find a power supply with limited current to be much more useful than a "bench" battery unless you are trying to spin a starter motor or something. The battery tends to smoke things when there is a short or a problem with the item under test. I use a homemade adjustable current limited power supply but prices are pretty reasonable for such things now. Ken On 07/04/2012 7:37 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > ...That probably will fool the charger however, I am not so sure about > the amperage action between the 2 batteries when connected. > > I think the fully charged batt. will flash charge the dead batt. with a > lot of current at least for the several seconds. Would that be enough to > burn up the connecting wire or cause the dead one to do something odd or > dangerous..? > > If tried, I would put some type of resistance between the good and dead > battery so the initial inrush current is limited to some reasonable > level, maybe 20 amps or less. > Hopefully Bob will inject here and fine tune the idea...... > Dave > > ______________________________________________ > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "rayj" <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:26 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Seems I killed one Odyssey PC625 battery > > >> >> I believe I saw on this list some time back a possible "cheat" for this >> situation. Connect a good battery and the dead battery in parallel with >> the charger. As I understand it the charger is "tricked" into operating >> and will then charge both batteries. I have brought dead batteries back >> with "dumb" chargers many times, though as others have said, I wouldn't >> use them in a critical application. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> On 04/07/2012 02:04 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: >>> You can probably bring it back with diminished capacity - it could be >>> great as a bench-test battery; but you will need an old-school, >>> stupid charger. And you may have to charge & discharge a few times. >>> >>> Your smart charger has correctly detected that this battery is in >>> trouble, and has refused to charge it. (Imagine that - Attitude from >>> a battery charger! What's next? . Grouchy toasters ;) >>> >>> I've been successful reviving a couple of batts with this technique. >>> But I would NEVER fly with it! >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of >>> *Allen Fulmer *Sent:* Saturday, April 07, 2012 08:12 *To:* >>> Aeroelectric-List *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Seems I killed one >>> Odyssey PC625 battery >>> >>> Subaru engine with dual electrical system including pair of Odyssey >>> PC625's. >>> >>> Left one battery master switch on all night! >>> >>> 6 yr. old PC625 on that master reading only 6.4 volts. >>> >>> Optimizer battery charger gives error indicating "CHARGER/BATTERY >>> FAULT. Charging stopped". >>> >>> Since I was going to replace the batteries anyway before first flight >>> went ahead and bought new PC625. Charger charges it and remaining 6 >>> year old battery just fine. >>> >>> Would love to have a 12 volt battery sitting on the work bench. >>> >>> So - - - is there any method to bring this battery back to life for >>> bench use only? >>> >>> Odyssey PC625 AGM battery and Xenotronics Optimizer Model SX100-1. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Allen Fulmer >>> >>> RV7 finishing up wiring details before closing top skin. >>> >>> * * >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
From: "Jim P" <piavis(at)comcast.net>
Date: Apr 08, 2012
That was the immediate thought, but there really wasn't anything in the system that was touched. Most of the work was in the engine area but didn't include any wiring or alternator work. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370290#370290 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 08, 2012
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Old Bob is right on target. ELTs are a government-required waste of money. The decision to carry one should be at the choice of the owner/operator. I don't care if mine works or not. I don't plan to depend on it. As Bob said, "Too many rules driven by pure bureaucracy" Check Six, Old Stan In a message dated 4/8/2012 3:03:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes: Good Afternoon Tim, Maybe the builder feels the same about an ELT as I do. Possibly he/she is just trying to be legal but does not care a whit whether or not it works! My feeling is that the use of an ELT should be a decision for the owner/operator, NOT a requirement of the law. Airliners are not required to carry one. Why should we? Too many rules driven by pure bureaucracy. Do Not Archive. Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker
Date: Apr 08, 2012
How about something like engine ground strap?? Good clean tight connections?? Slightly high resistance may not affect cranking but could mess with voltage measurement by the regulator. Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim P > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 11:45 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker > > > That was the immediate thought, but there really wasn't anything in the system that > was touched. Most of the work was in the engine area but didn't include any wiring or > alternator work. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370290#370290 > > > > > > > > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 08, 2012
Bob, Thanks for the follow-up info. I do like the idea of going with a micro to allow programmable functions with a standard module/connector design. What is the source for the d-sub enclosure you suggested? How much current can be handled by a single pin on the connector? Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370304#370304 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED
lamps At 12:47 PM 4/8/2012, you wrote: Bob, Thanks for the follow-up info. I do like the idea of going with a micro to allow programmable functions with a standard module/connector design. What is the source for the d-sub enclosure you suggested? got a bucket full of them . . . How much current can be handled by a single pin on the connector? 5A but I'd parallel up two pins for each power path . . . there are plenty of extras. I qualified this process on a military targets program about 15 years ago. http://tinyurl.com/7h9h76r for this power distribution controller http://tinyurl.com/8x5rssq for this target http://tinyurl.com/6myc494 Works good, lasts a long time. First gate to pass is to select logic level FETs with sufficient current rating and make sure you can get rid of the heat in this 2.8 x 1.4 footprint. Emacs! Here's the schematic for this particular layout. http://tinyurl.com/7m56z8o Depending on what parts are put on, which are left off, what the values are and what software is in the uC, you can do a lot of different things with it . . . and probably the next generation wig wag. You game to herd byes in a PIC RISC? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Conduit in wings.
Greetings, I'm planning on completing my aircraft with a minimum electrical system and providing a way to install wingtip lights later. Any experiences anyone has with using different types of conduit in wings would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2012
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Conduit in wings.
On 04/08/2012 08:03 PM, rayj wrote: > > Greetings, > > I'm planning on completing my aircraft with a minimum electrical > system and providing a way to install wingtip lights later. Any > experiences anyone has with using different types of conduit in wings > would be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine Van supplies simple plastic snap-bushings for the wire passage holes that you drill in the ribs. If simple bushings is good enough for Van.... Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Cole <LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net>
Subject: Re: Conduit in wings.
Date: Apr 08, 2012
Hi Ray, I used 5/8-inch OD HDPE tubing from McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com) through the lightening holes in the leading-edge ribs of my Murphy Rebel Elite. I supported the conduit at every other rib with Adel clamps. I haven't installed the wings yet, nor have I pulled any wires, so I can't give you much info on how well it works. Lynn Cole Murphy Elite #709 LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net On Apr 8, 2012, at 8:03 PM, rayj wrote: > > > Greetings, > > I'm planning on completing my aircraft with a minimum electrical > system and providing a way to install wingtip lights later. Any > experiences anyone has with using different types of conduit in > wings would be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Conduit in wings.
Date: Apr 08, 2012
Ray, On my Murphy Super Rebel, I used some =BD PEX tubing I had. It weighed roughly the same as the alternatives, and I like the smooth walls for pulling wires vs. the flexible conduit. It also had a higher temperature spec than the flexible conduit. I attached it to the ribs with aircraft grade zip ties. To keep the ribs from cutting into the tubing, I purchased some door edge guard material from a local auto shop. It came in 36=94 strips and I cut it up so the tubing and the back of the zip tie were pulled against the edge guard vs. a sharp rib edge. I anchored the tubing to the root rib with a PVC Pex coupling that I cut in half. That gave me a flange on the outside and the pex ribs on the inside. I used proseal to mate it and a clamp, then removed the clamp when the proseal dried. Jerry Folkerts SR 2500 #093 www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Cole Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 8:43 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Conduit in wings. Hi Ray, I used 5/8-inch OD HDPE tubing from McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com) through the lightening holes in the leading-edge ribs of my Murphy Rebel Elite. I supported the conduit at every other rib with Adel clamps. I haven't installed the wings yet, nor have I pulled any wires, so I can't give you much info on how well it works. Lynn Cole Murphy Elite #709 LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net On Apr 8, 2012, at 8:03 PM, rayj wrote: Greetings, I'm planning on completing my aircraft with a minimum electrical system and providing a way to install wingtip lights later. Any experiences anyone has with using different types of conduit in wings would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2012
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
On 4/8/2012 10:15 PM, Jared Yates wrote: > Do your passengers get a vote? Sure! They can vote not to ride in his experimental aircraft. -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2012
From: jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Conduit in wings.
EMT (thin wall) conduit is still heavy - a little here a little there adds up. Ya, Plex isn't bad - light. One I used on another UL type aircraft is drip irrigation tubing. Another factor is what burns and what doesn't, might be a factor to consider for fire spread. jerryb At 08:57 PM 4/8/2012, you wrote: >Ray, > On my Murphy Super Rebel, I > used some =BD PEX tubing I had. It weighed > roughly the same as the alternatives, and I > like the smooth walls for pulling wires vs. the > flexible conduit. It also had a higher > temperature spec than the flexible conduit. I > attached it to the ribs with aircraft grade zip > ties. To keep the ribs from cutting into the > tubing, I purchased some door edge guard > material from a local auto shop. It came in > 36=94 strips and I cut it up so the tubing and > the back of the zip tie were pulled against the > edge guard vs. a sharp rib edge. I anchored > the tubing to the root rib with a PVC Pex > coupling that I cut in half. That gave me a > flange on the outside and the pex ribs on the > inside. I used proseal to mate it and a clamp, > then removed the clamp when the proseal dried. > >Jerry Folkerts >SR 2500 #093 >www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts > >From: >owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Cole >Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 8:43 PM >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Conduit in wings. > >Hi Ray, >I used 5/8-inch OD HDPE tubing from >McMaster-Carr >(<http://www.mcmaster.com>www.mcmaster.com) >through the lightening holes in the leading-edge >ribs of my Murphy Rebel Elite. I supported the >conduit at every other rib with Adel clamps. I >haven't installed the wings yet, nor have I >pulled any wires, so I can't give you much info on how well it works. >Lynn Cole >Murphy Elite #709 >LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net > > >On Apr 8, 2012, at 8:03 PM, rayj wrote: > > ><raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> > >Greetings, > >I'm planning on completing my aircraft with a >minimum electrical system and providing a way to >install wingtip lights later. Any experiences >anyone has with using different types of conduit in wings would be appreciated. > >Thanks in advance, >Raymond Julian >Kettle River, MN > >"And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > --> > <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ><http://forums.matronics.com>http://forums.matronics.com > - List Contribution Web Site - >-Matt Dralle, List Admin. > --> > <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contributio n > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > >http://forums.matronics.com > > >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Conduit in wings.
Thanks to all who wrote. Fire is a concern with some of the plastic conduit mentioned. I'm concerned about just pulling wire and leaving it loose to rub on wing ribs, even with grommets. I'm thinking some very thin wall al, if I can find it. If I could find some fire resistant composite tubing, I'd look at it but I think it might be too expensive. Thanks again. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 04/08/2012 10:34 PM, jerb wrote: > EMT (thin wall) conduit is still heavy - a little here a little there > adds up. Ya, Plex isn't bad - light. One I used on another UL type > aircraft is drip irrigation tubing. Another factor is what burns and > what doesn't, might be a factor to consider for fire spread. > jerryb > > > At 08:57 PM 4/8/2012, you wrote: >> Ray, >> On my Murphy Super Rebel, I used some PEX tubing I had. It weighed >> roughly the same as the alternatives, and I like the smooth walls for >> pulling wires vs. the flexible conduit. It also had a higher >> temperature spec than the flexible conduit. I attached it to the ribs >> with aircraft grade zip ties. To keep the ribs from cutting into the >> tubing, I purchased some door edge guard material from a local auto >> shop. It came in 36 strips and I cut it up so the tubing and the back >> of the zip tie were pulled against the edge guard vs. a sharp rib >> edge. I anchored the tubing to the root rib with a PVC Pex coupling >> that I cut in half. That gave me a flange on the outside and the pex >> ribs on the inside. I used proseal to mate it and a clamp, then >> removed the clamp when the proseal dried. >> >> Jerry Folkerts >> SR 2500 #093 >> www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts <http://www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts> >> >> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of >> *Lynn Cole >> *Sent:* Sunday, April 08, 2012 8:43 PM >> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Conduit in wings. >> >> Hi Ray, >> I used 5/8-inch OD HDPE tubing from McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com >> <http://www.mcmaster.com>) through the lightening holes in the >> leading-edge ribs of my Murphy Rebel Elite. I supported the conduit at >> every other rib with Adel clamps. I haven't installed the wings yet, >> nor have I pulled any wires, so I can't give you much info on how well >> it works. >> Lynn Cole >> Murphy Elite #709 >> LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net >> >> >> >> On Apr 8, 2012, at 8:03 PM, rayj wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> Greetings, >> >> I'm planning on completing my aircraft with a minimum electrical >> system and providing a way to install wingtip lights later. Any >> experiences anyone has with using different types of conduit in wings >> would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - >> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> http://forums.matronics.com >> - List Contribution Web Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://forums.matronics.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> >> > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 08, 2012
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
I wouldn't mind if it were optional, but then for those who don't carry one, I don't want to pay taxes to go look for you. The ELT requirement started when a Congresscritter disappeared in his light plane in Alaska and the military spent a lot of time and money looking for him. Never did find him. You can say they're worthless all you want (ELTs, I mean) but since the government spends money to look for you they have the right to force you to make their job easier. On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 9:57 AM, wrote: > ** > Old Bob is right on target. > > ELTs are a government-required waste of money. The decision to carry one > should be at the choice of the owner/operator. I don't care if mine works > or not. I don't plan to depend on it. > > As Bob said, "Too many rules driven by pure bureaucracy" > > Check Six, > Old Stan > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 08, 2012
Subject: Re: Conduit in wings.
Here's what I did: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rfinch&project=547&category=3998&log=66332&row' On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 6:03 PM, rayj wrote: > > Greetings, > > I'm planning on completing my aircraft with a minimum electrical system > and providing a way to install wingtip lights later. Any experiences > anyone has with using different types of conduit in wings would be > appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 08, 2012
Subject: Re: Conduit in wings.
I didn't care about fire resistance or non-toxic-smokeproof plastic for the wing conduit. Just used the thinnest-wall irrigation conduit I could find at the local Ace Hardware and Aviation Supply store. Now the fuselage, that's different. I used split-loom and spiral wrap, both fire-resistant, smoke proof, etc. On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:50 PM, rayj wrote: > > Thanks to all who wrote. Fire is a concern with some of the plastic > conduit mentioned. I'm concerned about just pulling wire and leaving it > loose to rub on wing ribs, even with grommets. I'm thinking some very thin > wall al, if I can find it. If I could find some fire resistant composite > tubing, I'd look at it but I think it might be too expensive. > > Thanks again. > > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com>
Subject: Re: Conduit in wings.
I used 1/2 inch CPVC pipe and plastic pipe hangers. CPVC is lighter than regular PVC and it used for the hot water lines in motor homes. john On 4/8/2012 6:03 PM, rayj wrote: > > Greetings, > > I'm planning on completing my aircraft with a minimum electrical > system and providing a way to install wingtip lights later. Any > experiences anyone has with using different types of conduit in wings > would be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Conduit in wings.
I've been told by a plastic manufacturer that cpvc is about the worst plastic out there for toxic smoke if it ever does burn. The translucent poly pipe used for things like ice maker water supply lines might be a better choice and more flexible if that matters. Several sizes available. I do favor non conductive conduit rather than metal. It helps to leave a string in the conduit if you plan to pull extra wires through later. The previously mentioned plastic snap in grommets are handy for running conduit through metal ribs. Ken On 09/04/2012 8:48 AM, John Morgensen wrote: > > > I used 1/2 inch CPVC pipe and plastic pipe hangers. CPVC is lighter than > regular PVC and it used for the hot water lines in motor homes. > > john > > On 4/8/2012 6:03 PM, rayj wrote: >> >> Greetings, >> >> I'm planning on completing my aircraft with a minimum electrical >> system and providing a way to install wingtip lights later. Any >> experiences anyone has with using different types of conduit in wings >> would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 09, 2012
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
> > Personally, I do carry a PLB. > > And if you activate that, who will come looking for you? Not your friends or family, but the government, on the taxpayer's dime. So you confirm that you are not as independent as your mythology tells you. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Just for accuracy, It wasn't just one congresscritter, it was the House Majority Leader, along with the only House Member for Alaska, along with 2 others in a charter Cessna 310 with a professional, experienced pilot....not just a little light plane out for a joy ride. Perhaps that is why in recent years the Sec. Service has insisted on military aircraft carrying the Majority Leader. BTW Canada had been requiring ELTs for a year or two when this happened. On 4/8/2012 10:19 PM, Ralph Finch wrote: > > The ELT requirement started when a Congresscritter disappeared in his > light plane in Alaska and the military spent a lot of time and money > looking for him. Never did find him. You can say they're worthless all > you want (ELTs, I mean) but since the government spends money to look > for you they have the right to force you to make their job easier.**** ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 09, 2012
Bob, I probably should have changed the Subject line on this but I decided to leave it alone to continue the thread we had started. It is getting away from the LED wig-wag topic... I have thought about this a little and I think it would be worthwhile to consider the option of a general purpose programmable module and use the LED wig-wag as a simple example application. I see three useful characteristics for this module: 1. Functionality set in software 2. Some capability to configure the I/O circuits for each application 3. A standard module package and connector such as the one you showed using an enclosed case with d-sub connector To be useful for a wide audience there needs to be simple learning curve for developing the software functionality and I/O configuration. I agree that the use of a PIC micro would be the way to go based on their ready availability, good price per performance, and availability of development tools. In order to make it attractive for general use I would propose the following: Software Development - The learning curve for using the standard PIC software development tools is pretty steep for a novice and I would expect many would shy away from that learning curve. There are some third party development tools designed to ease the learning curve but at a price of $150 and up they are not targeted at the novice hobbyist. An attractive option is the line of PICAXE micros targeted at the education market and easily applied to the types of applications being considered here (I don't think we are looking at applications that require high performance embedded processing). You can get started with PICAXE development for $25 to $50 depending on which processor and which downloading cable you use. The PICAXE development environment is free and easy to use for the novice with the capability to simulate the micro operation without connection to a micro. The use of a version of BASIC designed for embedded applications makes it easy to program but there is an execution speed hit due to the use of a code interpreter in the PICAXE micro instead of using a compiler to generate machine code for a plain PIC. Again, I don't see this execution speed penalty as a major issue for most applications. As you gain experience you could make a switch to standard PIC micros and use C or assembly language. The group behind PICAXE (Revolution Education in Britain) gets funds from selling the PICAXE versions of the PIC micro (preloaded with the program loader and interpreter) and development boards/kits. Here is a link to the free software development environment: http://www.picaxe.com/Software/PICAXE/PICAXE-Programming-Editor You can find more PICAXE info at (including lots of examples and tutorials): http://www.picaxe.com/ and there are three U.S. distributers: http://www.sparkfun.com/categories/125 http://www.robotshop.com/search/search.aspx?locale=en_us&keywords=picaxe http://www.phanderson.com/picaxe/ I/O Configuration - In parallel with a need for easy software development I see a need for easy configuration of I/O interfaces to the devices outside the module. There a plenty of examples and tutorials for interfacing the PICAXE to all types of devices and here are some examples of general purpose modules that allow I/O configuration (usually through the provision of a prototyping area on the module): >From VX-Aviation, the Proton-225 board based on a PIC micro with a prototyping area and a package using standard d-sub 25 pin connectors and housing which is compatible with the other products they provide. You can download a pdf description here: http://www.vx-aviation.com/docs.html >From PICAXE there are several standard development boards that include the provision for varying levels of I/O configuration: http://www.picaxe.com/Hardware/Project-Boards/PICAXE-08-Proto-Board/ http://www.picaxe.com/Hardware/Project-Boards/PICAXE-14-Project-Board/ http://www.picaxe.com/Hardware/Project-Boards/PICAXE-18-Project-Board/ I don't know enough about hardware design to know if the use of these types of boards or even just a prototyping board from Radio Shack are robust enough to handle the environment of mounting in an experimental aircraft but based on the VX-Aviation module it would seem they may be up to the job... Anyway, this note is getting a little long so I will end it here. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who is interested in something along these lines in order to see if my thoughts on this make any sense to anyone beside me. I am only interested as an end user of the module and have no real interest in designing / producing any type of hardware boards. I can handle setting up the I/O circuits on a pre-made board but I don't have much interest in board development even though I know it is something that is not that hard to learn. Just a matter of only so many things that you can do, even when you are retired from a "real" job. I have read and studied the AeroElectric Connection book and have a draft design for the electrical system on the Sonex Xenos motor glider that I am building. But as I pointed out in a previous note, like most software engineers, I know just enough about hardware design to be dangerous... Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370376#370376 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED
lamps
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 09, 2012
To that goal, I'd like to suggest using an Arduino. The IDE is totally cross-platform, the programming language is C with some extra libraries, and the only difference between an Arduino and a plain Atmel AVR micro is the (free) boot loader, giving folks their choice of Arduino or AVR Studio. Additionally there is tons of forum support for programming those guys. I recently used one in a project where one of the goals was that it needed to be maintained by a moderately savvy high-school student. I think it's great for that kind of thing. Daniel On Apr 9, 2012, at 11:21 AM, "gregmchugh" wrote: > To be useful for a wide audience there needs to be simple learning curve for developing the software > functionality and I/O configuration. I agree that the use of a PIC micro would be the way to go based on > their ready availability, good price per performance, and availability of development tools. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 09, 2012
Daniel, I agree that the Arduino is a good option but, as I noted in another note which seems to be appearing under a different thread, I would be concerned that the learning curve for software development on an Arduino might be too steep for many potential users. I suggested the PICAXE micro as a good choice due to the simple learning curve. Both are viable options but they would seem to be to be targeted at slightly different users. The Arduino development environment makes learning to use the C language easier than many other options but it is still a language that takes significant learning to understand what the code is doing. This issue is not as significant as most C development environments, Arduino does ease the learning curve with a nice development environment and lots of tutorials and examples. I can see people starting out with PICAXE and moving to Arduino as they develop more complex applications. For people ready to tackle the added complexity of the software, Arduino is probably the best option. It is good that many options exist... Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370381#370381 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Who got lost without an ELT?
>> Congresscritter disappeared in his light plane in Alaska Hale Boggs, whose daughter you've probably heard on the radio, Cokie Roberts... Paul -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
At 11:21 AM 4/9/2012, you wrote: Bob, I probably should have changed the Subject line on this but I decided to leave it alone to continue the thread we had started. It is getting away from the LED wig-wag topic... Okay, how about 'open source product development for OBAM aircraft" I have thought about this a little and I think it would be worthwhile to consider the option of a general purpose programmable module and use the LED wig-wag as a simple example application. I see three useful characteristics for this module 1. Functionality set in software 2. Some capability to configure the I/O circuits for each application 3. A standard module package and connector such as the one you showed using an enclosed case with d-sub connector That was the idea behind the "do allot" ECB and companion schematic. It's readily deduced that no single product would use ALL the parts in the schematic. But selective use of parts and software offers a host of possibilities. This particular board was bounded by the dimensions of the case . . . but there are larger cases that could be considered. But there's value in maximizing the 'core' of a bill of materials that varies only slightly from product to product and this size seemed like a good starting place. To be useful for a wide audience there needs to be simple learning curve for developing the software functionality and I/O configuration. I agree that the use of a PIC micro would be the way to go based on their ready availability, good price per performance, and availability of development tools. My father-in-law has been doing my PIC software on a PICkit 1. I think they're $36 from Digikey. The source editor/compiler is free. http://tinyurl.com/7dq97tv I don't know enough about hardware design to know if the use of these types of boards or even just a prototyping board from Radio Shack are robust enough to handle the environment of mounting in an experimental aircraft but based on the VX-Aviation module it would seem they may be up to the job... these same considerations drove the do-lots board. Everything needed to do a lot of tasks could be completely contained in the 'standard enclosure'. Anyway, this note is getting a little long so I will end it here. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who is interested in something along these lines in order to see if my thoughts on this make any sense to anyone beside me. I am only interested as an end user of the module and have no real interest in designing / producing any type of hardware boards. I can handle setting up the I/O circuits on a pre-made board but I don't have much interest in board development even though I know it is something that is not that hard to learn. Not 'hard' but certainly time consuming. This is where the open-source approach might allow the community of interested users to contribute in concert with their interests and available time. For my part, I can readily advise on schematics and functionality that are 'aviation friendly'. Been doing that for decades. I would proposed that the development chain of any single device be published, certainly here on the List and perhaps archived on aeroelectric.com I did the c-mos gate wig-wag as a practical exercise with low risk for success. It's not been laid up on a board but could be easily brass-boarded and hardened for installation on an airplane. Doing a PIC based flasher might be the short path to success. The board and packaging is done. The aviation friendly architecture is done. So, tell you what. If you program this beastie, I'll supply the parts. We can turn this into a practical path to service your needs along with a teaching moment for interested readers. I'll turn it into an off-the-shelf product. I'll make cases and bare board available to anyone who wants to do their own version of a do-lots module. If they contribute their own efforts to the open-source library, then depending on interest-at-large . . . we can make that an off the shelf product as well. I'll look into the options for getting some beefier fets in the box. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Folks, It seems were getting a lot of ancillary issues injected to the conversation. With respect to the original question, installing the antenna in this manner is guaranteed to offer a substantial reduction of the system's ability to function. The relative effectiveness of emergency locator beacons took a 1000-fold jump when the technology added a GPS location tag to the ELT output. The over-all effectiveness is still limited by logistics. When minutes count, help is only hours away. Nonetheless, out of tens of thousands of ELT systems- installed, a few will be part of the post accident scenario. Fewer still will be credited with causing a happy ending. The regulatory matters surrounding ELT installations is only a symptom of the growing sphere of influence being exerted by an ever expanding cadre of regulators in all venues. All honorable citizens are encouraged to join the struggle to curtail such adventures. There are plenty of on-topic forums in which those pursuits can be exercised. Just not here. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
At 11:57 AM 4/9/2012, you wrote: > >To that goal, I'd like to suggest using an Arduino. This is a highly capable device but a bit of an overkill for things like wig-wag flashers, voltage monitors, etc. The challenge is to exploit the scope of projects that can be implemented in a user friendly package of the smallest practical size, cost and parts count. An already stuffed Arduino board has no aviation friendly i/o or even an enclosure for $30. I would expect the wig-wag flasher to be drop-in ready for use on an airplane and have total bill of materials under $20 or so. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 09, 2012
That's true, but it's fairly simple to 'roll your own' Arduino with just an ATMega and a particular serial and reset schematic. I haven't done the design exercise, but an ATMega168 would probably do the job, and they're as little as $2.31 on Mouser. The FTDI serial chips are only $2 nowadays too, apparently, if you're inclined to make it USB programmable. There are definitely other solutions, but I've had a surprisingly good experience with these things. Daniel On Apr 9, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 11:57 AM 4/9/2012, you wrote: >> >> To that goal, I'd like to suggest using an Arduino. > > This is a highly capable device but a bit of an > overkill for things like wig-wag flashers, voltage > monitors, etc. > > The challenge is to exploit the scope of > projects that can be implemented in a user > friendly package of the smallest practical > size, cost and parts count. An already stuffed > Arduino board has no aviation friendly i/o > or even an enclosure for $30. I would expect > the wig-wag flasher to be drop-in ready for > use on an airplane and have total bill of > materials under $20 or so. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
At 02:41 PM 4/9/2012, you wrote: > >That's true, but it's fairly simple to 'roll your own' Arduino with >just an ATMega and a particular serial and reset schematic. I >haven't done the design exercise, but an ATMega168 would probably do >the job, and they're as little as $2.31 on Mouser. >The FTDI serial chips are only $2 nowadays too, apparently, if >you're inclined to make it USB programmable. > >There are definitely other solutions, but I've had a surprisingly >good experience with these things. Sure . . . but the ATM168 is a big chip with lots of I/O we can't put into the enclosure I have. A large proportion of energy/time to bring a product to an airplane is packaging. If you can capitalize on off-the-shelf packaging, that problem goes away. If the ECB layout I have could be slightly modified to the new task, that time-to-market item is shortened. To be sure, there are MANY options capable of a host of tasks. I'll suggest we establish some design goals that get us to the finish line with a minimum of new investment. If we were talking about a product where projected sales were in the thousands or even hundreds, perhaps a 'next size up' enclosure with silicon capable of more expansion would be attractive. But I'd be surprised if construction/sales of the simplest and fastest project would exceed 100 pieces in the next 5 years. Return on investment of development time is much more significant for low volume projects. The PIC 12F675 is a reduced instruction set device usually programmed in assembler. This is an excellent learning environment for teaching micro-controllers and Bollean logic. It gets the student better connection with the inner workings of the chip. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
Date: Apr 09, 2012
All Regarding Selection of Micro-controller: There should probably be some due diligence with respect to selection of micro-controller and micro-controller families to be considered for a Do-Lots (generic controller w/ hardened interfaces to the real world) device. I've used PIC & ATMEL uControllers and I have opinions about both (which I'm happy to share if people are interested). I'm hoping others on this list do too. With some careful design, it may be possible to create a device that is uController/Manufacturer agnostic. Food for thought... -Jeff Luckey -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 10:24 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft At 11:21 AM 4/9/2012, you wrote: Bob, I probably should have changed the Subject line on this but I decided to leave it alone to continue the thread we had started. It is getting away from the LED wig-wag topic... Okay, how about 'open source product development for OBAM aircraft" I have thought about this a little and I think it would be worthwhile to consider the option of a general purpose programmable module and use the LED wig-wag as a simple example application. I see three useful characteristics for this module 1. Functionality set in software 2. Some capability to configure the I/O circuits for each application 3. A standard module package and connector such as the one you showed using an enclosed case with d-sub connector That was the idea behind the "do allot" ECB and companion schematic. It's readily deduced that no single product would use ALL the parts in the schematic. But selective use of parts and software offers a host of possibilities. This particular board was bounded by the dimensions of the case . . . but there are larger cases that could be considered. But there's value in maximizing the 'core' of a bill of materials that varies only slightly from product to product and this size seemed like a good starting place. To be useful for a wide audience there needs to be simple learning curve for developing the software functionality and I/O configuration. I agree that the use of a PIC micro would be the way to go based on their ready availability, good price per performance, and availability of development tools. My father-in-law has been doing my PIC software on a PICkit 1. I think they're $36 from Digikey. The source editor/compiler is free. http://tinyurl.com/7dq97tv I don't know enough about hardware design to know if the use of these types of boards or even just a prototyping board from Radio Shack are robust enough to handle the environment of mounting in an experimental aircraft but based on the VX-Aviation module it would seem they may be up to the job... these same considerations drove the do-lots board. Everything needed to do a lot of tasks could be completely contained in the 'standard enclosure'. Anyway, this note is getting a little long so I will end it here. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who is interested in something along these lines in order to see if my thoughts on this make any sense to anyone beside me. I am only interested as an end user of the module and have no real interest in designing / producing any type of hardware boards. I can handle setting up the I/O circuits on a pre-made board but I don't have much interest in board development even though I know it is something that is not that hard to learn. Not 'hard' but certainly time consuming. This is where the open-source approach might allow the community of interested users to contribute in concert with their interests and available time. For my part, I can readily advise on schematics and functionality that are 'aviation friendly'. Been doing that for decades. I would proposed that the development chain of any single device be published, certainly here on the List and perhaps archived on aeroelectric.com I did the c-mos gate wig-wag as a practical exercise with low risk for success. It's not been laid up on a board but could be easily brass-boarded and hardened for installation on an airplane. Doing a PIC based flasher might be the short path to success. The board and packaging is done. The aviation friendly architecture is done. So, tell you what. If you program this beastie, I'll supply the parts. We can turn this into a practical path to service your needs along with a teaching moment for interested readers. I'll turn it into an off-the-shelf product. I'll make cases and bare board available to anyone who wants to do their own version of a do-lots module. If they contribute their own efforts to the open-source library, then depending on interest-at-large . . . we can make that an off the shelf product as well. I'll look into the options for getting some beefier fets in the box. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 09, 2012
Bob, Sounds like a reasonable approach to me. Using these PIC chips gives a lot of options for software development. The kit you mention is $36 direct from Microchip. I just ordered one and will come up with the code for the wig-wag example using the kit. We just need to decide on which chip provides the right capabilities for the expected applications. I expect the option exists to allow several of the PIC chips to drop into the same board layout since the added pins simply increase the number of I/O ports. I believe the PICAXE chips are drop in replacements for the standard PIC chips supported by the kit you referenced without the need for the development kit. They can be programmed using the PICAXE kits which are readily available for $30 to $50 with the major cost being a USB programming cable. If you have a serial port available the cable is $6. I expect the serial cable is easy to make yourself since it is simply a connection to a 3.5mm stereo audio plug... Development tools for BASIC on the PICAXE are free and there is also an option to program the PICAXE directly from flowcharts using the Logicator tool ($15 tool). Enough options to satisfy most of the potential users... Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370402#370402 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 09, 2012
Bob, One question I forgot to ask in the previous note. When I looked at using the Perihelion Wig-Wag for my LED landing lights I was surprised at the compact size and the capability to switch the loads on standard landing lights. Is there something unique about this design to handle the 250 watt load? Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370405#370405 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft At 06:45 PM 4/9/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >One question I forgot to ask in the previous note. When I looked at >using the Perihelion Wig-Wag for my LED landing lights I was >surprised at the compact size and the capability to switch the loads >on standard landing lights. Is there something unique about this >design to handle the 250 watt load? You'd have to check with Eric as to his design philosophy but based on what is generally known, getting the heat in the FETs under control has two components. (1) Thermal resistance from the silicon to the ambient. Like ohms in current flow, thermal resistance has a quotient most often stated in degrees C in rise per watt of power in the junction. (2) Keeping power dissipated at a minimum by selecting a FET with the lowest practical on-resistance in combination with a healthy overhead for rated voltage. Check out this array of 30 volt FETs. http://tinyurl.com/6vxhkxg Then let's select a 2.1 milliohm resistance at 4.5 volts of gate drive. Nice specs but it's a bare chip intended for installation by bonding into a hybrid device. Okay back up let's leave the resistance alone and select 20 volts where it says we'll find 153 devices to select from. Lets go over in the array and look at surface mount parts with leads (67 choices). The next thing we're interested in is size. Just for grins, hit the SO-8 package (34 choices). Notice that we have three power dissipation choices. Let's go peek at the single 3.5 watt device. That gives us the IRF7811 with an logic level drive on resistance of 14 milliohms. Now, with the proposed 45 watt devices, let's assume 5A max at minimum bus voltage so 5A(squared) x .014 ohms equals 350 milliwatts. Hmmm . . . not bad. Let's go get the detailed data at: http://tinyurl.com/6qpt9cf We see there that thermal resistance junction-to- leads is on the order of 20 degrees C per watt. .35 watts will give us a 7 degree C rise on the junction over the temperature of the board. Now here's where it gets a little sticky. Our board is epoxy glass with most of the copper removed and the whole thing is enclosed in a plastic case with no ventilation. What we don't know is the thermal resistance board to ambient wile boxed up in this case. I'll go measure it in the next few days. This is done by cutting a piece of copper clad the same footprint as the proposed board. Glue a power resistor and thermocouple to the board. Close it up in the plastic case. Dump some handy amount of power into the resistor, say 1 watt. Then see what the temperature reads after an hour or so. This will yield the best possible heat transfer situation for one of these FETS soldered to the board. I'm thinking the 7811 might do the job. They're stock at Digikey for 1.50 in small quantities. Since this is a plastic enclosure, we'll qualify to cabin environments so 40 to 50 C is about the upper test limits. Okay, just for grins let's see how a pair of SO-8 chips goes into the space previously occupied by three DIP4 chips and some do-lots components. Emacs! Well, lookee there. Not only is there plenty of room, we might even put one on top and the other on the bottom so as to leave room for leaving more copper on the board around the chip. This exercise in cut and try on a four-cornered envelope with the final confirmation or denial of choice being a full power test in the temperature chamber. I have one of those. http://tinyurl.com/7yrrhhq So fortunately, we have access to quite a bit of experience to drive the corners of the envelope toward the component of choice. I'm pretty sure we can get a 5A switcher in this enclosure with comfortable head room for power handling. So now your schematic looks something like this: Emacs! When we went from do-lots to wig-wag, it got a lot simpler. Two outputs driving power FETs, two inputs to control for three states of function (OFF/WW/ON). So, first cut at the design looks good. If you can make the silicon sing, dance and do dishes, I'd say we're 50% of the way to having a useful product that meets design goals and offers a user friendly envelope and wiring interface. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft > >Enough options to satisfy most of the potential users... Exactly. For years I tried to find a crack into which I could drive a wedge for distributed processing. We had dozens of little black boxes for current sensing, time delays, logic, thermostats, etc that all used discrete components and were designed 30 to 40 years ago. I even demonstrated that I could make huge reductions in parts count with similar reductions in size and weight, plus take advantage of pick-n-place assembly. But as soon as I mentioned software, everyone turns white and runs out the door. It didn't matter how simple the software task might be, those-who-know-more-about-airplanes-than-we-do- in-Washington insisted on piles of paper and buckets of holy-water with DO-178 'certification' and configuration management. A device with $20 worth of parts to do some simple task could cost $100,000 to qualify. So much for modern marvels. Hence, anything software was farmed out in the form of "do-everything" flight and airframe management computers with a $10,000 bill of materials and a 10 million dollar cert program. What's more, when it didn't work right, we had somebody else to throw rocks at and then wait around with everyone camping on a work order. Now, you and I have a chance to show the guys at Beech/Raytheon/HBC how to do a responsible job of incorporating software with a distributed processing approach to black box development. Ought to be fun. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Point me in the right direction
Date: Apr 09, 2012
My strobes will not fire when they are plugged into the plane electrical system. They will fire if 12V from a power supply is hooked up to them. The schematic is basically: battery, to master solenoid, to fuse, to switch, to strobe power supply. Sometimes it will fire once and stop and sometimes it will fire 6-7 times and stop. I have continuity with the ground pin on the Molex power supply connector to aircraft ground. With the master on, I have 12V at the fuse, I have 12V incoming to the switch. With the master on and the strobe switch off, I have .65V after the switch. With the strobe switch on I have 12V after the switch. With the strobe switch on I have sometimes 12V, sometimes 10V, and sometimes 8V at the power pin in the connector going to the strobe power supply. At first I thought the switch was bad then that I have a loose connection somewhere after the switch. It doesn't seem reasonable that all this could have happened at the same time. The strobes were fine till I was not able to visit the plane for about 6 months. The problem happened when I returned and tried to power them up. I suppose the Molex connector pins could be loose but that doesn't explain the low voltage. I plan to move the wire from the strobe switch to the position light switch tomorrow to see if that helps. None of the other light switches have voltage after them with the switch off. Any suggestions? Bill B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce" <BGray(at)glasair.org>
Subject: Point me in the right direction
Date: Apr 10, 2012
Check the wire crimps on the molex connectors. Sounds like something is not airtight and corroded over time. Bruce WWW.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 10:59 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Point me in the right direction My strobes will not fire when they are plugged into the plane electrical system. They will fire if 12V from a power supply is hooked up to them. The schematic is basically: battery, to master solenoid, to fuse, to switch, to strobe power supply. Sometimes it will fire once and stop and sometimes it will fire 6-7 times and stop. I have continuity with the ground pin on the Molex power supply connector to aircraft ground. With the master on, I have 12V at the fuse, I have 12V incoming to the switch. With the master on and the strobe switch off, I have .65V after the switch. With the strobe switch on I have 12V after the switch. With the strobe switch on I have sometimes 12V, sometimes 10V, and sometimes 8V at the power pin in the connector going to the strobe power supply. At first I thought the switch was bad then that I have a loose connection somewhere after the switch. It doesn't seem reasonable that all this could have happened at the same time. The strobes were fine till I was not able to visit the plane for about 6 months. The problem happened when I returned and tried to power them up. I suppose the Molex connector pins could be loose but that doesn't explain the low voltage. I plan to move the wire from the strobe switch to the position light switch tomorrow to see if that helps. None of the other light switches have voltage after them with the switch off. Any suggestions? Bill B ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Who got lost without an ELT?
From: "n395v" <airboss(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Apr 10, 2012
In 1972 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hale_Boggs -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370433#370433 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 10, 2012
Bob, Looks good. Let's try to keep the option open to drop in the PICAXE 8 pin chip in place of the standard PIC chip. I am not sure of the PIC chip they started with but the pinouts for the current PICAXE 8 pin are shown here. http://www.picaxe.com/docs/picaxem2.pdf I believe the PICAXE is simply one of the standard PIC chips with their firmware installed and the chip marked with their designation, at least that is what they used to be. They used to still have the PIC product designation on the chip with a sticker applied to show the PICAXE designation. The standard PICAXE development boards connect pins 2 and 7 to the serial connection to the PC and the onboard loader is connected to these pins. In practice the pins can be reconfigured in the application so they are available when off of the development board for other uses. If they are not used in the application then the option to keep the serial port connected to the PC would still be available even in the application hardware configuration. Connecting these to the external connector would allow access to the chip from a PC. Of course the serial port could also be used for I/O to any standard RS-232 serial device by the application. Here is a description of the 8 bit development board. http://www.picaxe.com/docs/axe021.pdf Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370450#370450 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Point me in the right direction
Date: Apr 10, 2012
Bill, That sounds like a marginal current flow path....meaning you can't pass enough reliable current to setup the strobe's needs to fire correctly. A continuity tester will sometimes lie to you as it needs very little current to show a good path. You could have a wire with all the strands broken except for one and the tester will indicate it is a good path. Look to for a poor/cold solder joint, wrong, corroded, contaminated or damaged pin in a connector and it could be that you have a wire break inside of the insulated covering. I have found this fault a time or two where a perfectly good wire is broken inside; maybe during manufacture or packaging mishandling, etc. Anyway, it sounds like a defective current path... Dave ___________________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 7:58 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Point me in the right direction > > > My strobes will not fire when they are plugged into the plane electrical > system. They will fire if 12V from a power supply is hooked up to them. > > The schematic is basically: battery, to master solenoid, to fuse, to > switch, > to strobe power supply. > > Sometimes it will fire once and stop and sometimes it will fire 6-7 times > and stop. > > I have continuity with the ground pin on the Molex power supply connector > to > aircraft ground. > > With the master on, I have 12V at the fuse, I have 12V incoming to the > switch. > > With the master on and the strobe switch off, I have .65V after the > switch. > > With the strobe switch on I have 12V after the switch. > > With the strobe switch on I have sometimes 12V, sometimes 10V, and > sometimes > 8V at the power pin in the connector going to the strobe power supply. > > At first I thought the switch was bad then that I have a loose connection > somewhere after the switch. It doesn't seem reasonable that all this > could > have happened at the same time. The strobes were fine till I was not able > to visit the plane for about 6 months. The problem happened when I > returned > and tried to power them up. > > I suppose the Molex connector pins could be loose but that doesn't explain > the low voltage. > > I plan to move the wire from the strobe switch to the position light > switch > tomorrow to see if that helps. None of the other light switches have > voltage after them with the switch off. > > Any suggestions? > > Bill B > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Point me in the right direction
Date: Apr 10, 2012
Dave, You are correct! I just don't know where the problem was. I replaced all the wires and connectors today and the strobes worked! Thanks to everybody for your consideration. Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Lloyd Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 1:57 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Point me in the right direction Bill, That sounds like a marginal current flow path....meaning you can't pass enough reliable current to setup the strobe's needs to fire correctly. A continuity tester will sometimes lie to you as it needs very little current to show a good path. You could have a wire with all the strands broken except for one and the tester will indicate it is a good path. Look to for a poor/cold solder joint, wrong, corroded, contaminated or damaged pin in a connector and it could be that you have a wire break inside of the insulated covering. I have found this fault a time or two where a perfectly good wire is broken inside; maybe during manufacture or packaging mishandling, etc. Anyway, it sounds like a defective current path... Dave ___________________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 7:58 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Point me in the right direction > > > My strobes will not fire when they are plugged into the plane electrical > system. They will fire if 12V from a power supply is hooked up to them. > > The schematic is basically: battery, to master solenoid, to fuse, to > switch, > to strobe power supply. > > Sometimes it will fire once and stop and sometimes it will fire 6-7 times > and stop. > > I have continuity with the ground pin on the Molex power supply connector > to > aircraft ground. > > With the master on, I have 12V at the fuse, I have 12V incoming to the > switch. > > With the master on and the strobe switch off, I have .65V after the > switch. > > With the strobe switch on I have 12V after the switch. > > With the strobe switch on I have sometimes 12V, sometimes 10V, and > sometimes > 8V at the power pin in the connector going to the strobe power supply. > > At first I thought the switch was bad then that I have a loose connection > somewhere after the switch. It doesn't seem reasonable that all this > could > have happened at the same time. The strobes were fine till I was not able > to visit the plane for about 6 months. The problem happened when I > returned > and tried to power them up. > > I suppose the Molex connector pins could be loose but that doesn't explain > the low voltage. > > I plan to move the wire from the strobe switch to the position light > switch > tomorrow to see if that helps. None of the other light switches have > voltage after them with the switch off. > > Any suggestions? > > Bill B > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft At 10:37 AM 4/10/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Looks good. Let's try to keep the option open to drop in the PICAXE 8 pin >chip in place of the standard PIC chip. I am not sure of the PIC chip they >started with but the pinouts for the current PICAXE 8 pin are shown here. Obviously, we have options to do anything. I'd like to see what we can do with the PIC12F683. It's a part I stock in quantity and it fits the present board layout. It's certainly capable of the sorts of jelly-bean products that would fit into the proposed enclosure. I am considering a next-step-up which will have to have USB interface capability. The PIC182458 offers 12-bit a/d and USB2.0 support on chip but that's a do-lots-board still looking for some projects. Right now, the 12F683 board is done per the schematic I posted and easily modified to handle the larger power mos-fets for the 5A wig-wag controller. Lets get our feet wet in a short path project first . . . are there pin-for-pin subs for the 12F683 in PACAXE? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft At 10:37 AM 4/10/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Looks good. Let's try to keep the option open to drop in the PICAXE 8 pin >chip in place of the standard PIC chip. I am not sure of the PIC chip they >started with but the pinouts for the current PICAXE 8 pin are shown here. I looked up the pinout on the PICAXE-08M2. Seems they swapped sides for the a/d input pins . . . we can do a board that will exploit the 08M2 but it would be a different board. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft At 10:37 AM 4/10/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Looks good. Let's try to keep the option open to drop in the PICAXE 8 pin >chip in place of the standard PIC chip. I am not sure of the PIC chip they >started with but the pinouts for the current PICAXE 8 pin are shown here. I looked up the pinout on the PICAXE-08M2. Seems they swapped sides for the a/d input pins . . . we can do a board that will exploit the 08M2 but it would be a different board. Scratch the above. Got my tongue tangled around my eyeteeth and couldn't see what I was typing. Seems the 08M2 is on a PIC12F1840 which is pin compatible with the 12F683. So we could sure go with that one if suits your programming preferences. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED
lamps At 11:57 AM 4/9/2012, you wrote: > >To that goal, I'd like to suggest using an Arduino. This is a highly capable device but a bit of an overkill for things like wig-wag flashers, voltage monitors, etc. The challenge is to exploit the scope of projects that can be implemented in a user friendly package of the smallest practical size, cost and parts count. An already stuffed Arduino board has no aviation friendly i/o or even an enclosure for $30. I would expect the wig-wag flasher to be drop-in ready for use on an airplane and have total bill of materials under $20 or so. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Apr 10, 2012
> >One question I forgot to ask in the previous note. When I looked at > >using the Perihelion Wig-Wag for my LED landing lights I was > >surprised at the compact size and the capability to switch the loads > >on standard landing lights. Is there something unique about this > >design to handle the 250 watt load? > > You'd have to check with Eric as to his > design philosophy but based on what is > generally known, getting the heat in the > FETs under control has two components. Bob is right. The Perihelion Design Wig-wags use either an FDD6670S (30V) or an FDD8444 (40V). Both of these are D packages (TO-252) which are surface mountable and about 1/4 square. The mounting is done by soldering the package to the PCB which itself is designed for maximum dissipation. The Faston lugs themselves are included in the thermal calculations, as is the potting compound. For this design I chose high-side switching, since the loads are remote and might be remotely grounded. The difference is that low-side switching would normally require an additional wire to the load. The wig-wag itself weighs less than the additional wire would. The disadvantage is that more a complicated driver for the FET gate is required. Mosfets are wonderful parts for wig-wagging, where there is no need for an intermediate state, they just switch ON and OFF. But they have to be operated within their specified range. This was a problem when people applied these wigwags to HIDs. Most HIDs have an extremely high ignition voltage, then a high boost voltage to induce IR heating to the anode terminal of the lamp. The boost current is over 30A for a substantial fraction of a second. This would wipe out the FET. The solution was to supply a CL-11 surge protector and a Zener across the line for those who intended to wigwag the HIDs. Now they wigwag well. But for incandescents (or LEDs), and using a surge protector, the wigwag will supply 20A per pulse. This is possible because the gate driver fully saturates the gate allowing the lowest possible Rds(on) resistance, and thus the smallest I x I x Rds(on) heating. For 20A, the heat dissipation is about 3.2W, split among two devices! Early versions used a 555 timer and a mosfet driver. Later versions have used a small RC oscillator and a CD4060 CMOS 14 Stage Ripple-Carry Binary Counter/Divider. This would seem an unusual part for this application, but it simply divides the RC oscillation and goes tick-tock at the correct duty cycle and timingit does all the work. The 555 was hard to make it do 50% (but it could be done with a few more parts) and the first pulse was always 1.5X longer than any succeeding pulsewhich is inelegant and stressed the fets. I was never satisfied with the early design on this matter. All parts are surface mount and are assembled under a stereo microscope. The entire PCB is 1.16 x 0.90. Early on I got a note from a customer saying, Okay, I see the switch, but where is the wigwag circuitry? There are several styles of this wigwag, one with the switch WW(d) and one BYO-Switch WW(c) that allows all sort of switching configurations. I also make these in 12 and 28V and a special double rate for single head-lights (e.g. the Europa or Glastar). And I supply the add-on bits for HIDs. But Bob's approach for flashing LEDs is good. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370477#370477 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wwd_180.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Looking for suggestions
Well, the good news is I flew my Kitfox IV for the first time last Saturday. This was after 4 hours of ground work, taxi testing, etc. I have a brand new Rotax 912 ULS and it has been performing very well. I am running on the Aeroelectric Z-16 schematic and after I discovered my bridge rectifier was in backwards (between the main and essential buss), then replacing it the correct way, all has (I believed) behaved ok. Saturday I put 1 hour of air time on the plane doing a racetrack pattern, conversing with the class D tower many times without a hitch. Today I went up b-4 work talking to ground, the tower and then took the active. I commenced another racetrack pattern and when I went to contact tower to come down my radio went south (my 5 Amp fuse blew which is on the essential buss). What a way to find out if your transponder is working or not as I squawked 7600 and came in via light gun. I have been running the system with both the main buss as well as the essential buss turned on...why?...because I have an alternator whine in the headset when only the main switch is on. I found if I turned on the essential buss, the whine goes away. So to the questions: 1.Should I not use the essential circuit unless it is, uh,well, essential to do so? 2. I have previously done a static (no engine running) Amp test across the essential switch with all loads going and even keyed the mic. The most I got out of the buss was 7A. I ask because Bob has a note not to go over 4A but I relayed this info here and some said it should not be an issue. 3. My thoughts today have drifted to the bridge rectifier and I wonder if I might be better off using a good Schottky Diode (ie...AEC9001-1) as I have noticed my voltage go up when I turn on the E-buss (I know this is common from some previous posts) just covering all bases. 4. So, I would welcome any thoughts of what to look at or ideas. Thanks in advance, Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft At 10:37 AM 4/10/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Looks good. Let's try to keep the option open to drop in the PICAXE 8 pin >chip in place of the standard PIC chip. I've been poking around the 'net trying to get a better picture of what the PICAXE is all about. If I am reading the postings right, PICAXE chips have an on-board interpreter for tokenized BASIC commands . . . these tend to be very slow with respect to what the chip can do with optimized object code. I saw some links for a basic compiler that targets PIC devices. http://www.sfcompiler.co.uk/swordfish/ I think this does a righteous compilation of the BASIC source code for much more efficient use of memory and greater speeds. I'm going out of town tomorrow with Dr. Dee. She has a conference to attend in Oklahoma City and I'll be driving her and three of her students to the conference. I'll have quite a bit of free time while they take care of business. I'll look a bit deeper into the Swordfish product and . . . there are undoubtedly others. I can see the allure of the PICAXE product for neophytes to get their juices flowing for herding bytes around in silicon. It would no doubt suffice for the wig-wag project too. But a serious compiler would let you run less expensive chips at their best speeds. I think there'a a place for both sets of tools. Since both tools target PIC products, the board layouts for things like the do-much architecture will work across both tools. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
At 08:37 PM 4/10/2012, you wrote: Well, the good news is I flew my Kitfox IV for the first time last Saturday. Great! Send me pictures. Saturday I put 1 hour of air time on the plane doing a racetrack pattern, conversing with the class D tower many times without a hitch. Today I went up b-4 work talking to ground, the tower and then took the active. I commenced another racetrack pattern and when I went to contact tower to come down my radio went south (my 5 Amp fuse blew which is on the essential buss). What kind of radio? What a way to find out if your transponder is working or not as I squawked 7600 and came in via light gun. It's always nice to have a plan-B, or plan-C, or . . . I have been running the system with both the main buss as well as the essential buss turned on...why?...because I have an alternator whine in the headset when only the main switch is on. I found if I turned on the essential buss, the whine goes away. So to the questions: 1.Should I not use the essential circuit unless it is, uh,well, essential to do so? Actually, it's an ENDURANCE bus intended to supply power to devices most useful for en route operations to MAXIMIZE utilization of a limited resource . . . battery energy. Of course this feature is operative only with the battery contactor OFF and the alternate feed switch closed. There is no harm in conducing normal operations with both switches closed but the noise symptoms you cited are puzzling. 2. I have previously done a static (no engine running) Amp test across the essential switch with all loads going and even keyed the mic. The most I got out of the buss was 7A. Very good . . . it won't go up much, if any, with the engine running. I ask because Bob has a note not to go over 4A but I relayed this info here and some said it should not be an issue. I'm pretty sure that the 4A reference was not a limit. I think I've writted than an e-bus load of 4A would probably be supported by an 18 a.h. battery for duration of fuel aboard. But if your design goals call for less endurance and you need more current, so be it. The point is that you should PLAN for and then MAINTAIN a known level of e-bus performance with the alternator inoperative. 3. My thoughts today have drifted to the bridge rectifier and I wonder if I might be better off using a good Schottky Diode (ie...AEC9001-1) as I have noticed my voltage go up when I turn on the E-buss (I know this is common from some previous posts) just covering all bases. There is an EXPECTED and NORMAL shift in e-bus voltage when the alternate feed switch is closed. This doesn't present a performance problem. The shift can be minimized by use of a low voltage drop device like the Schottky diode but you won't be able to tell the difference from the pilot's seat. 4. So, I would welcome any thoughts of what to look at or ideas. We need to figure out where this noise is coming from and how it's getting into your electronics. You're sure it's coming from the alternator? In other words, if you went flying battery only, alternator off, would the radio be quiet. Also, have you figured out why the fuse opened? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft
Date: Apr 10, 2012
Bob, Your assessment of the Picaxe is right on. They are great for beginners/simple/low performance devices but their interpreter is at least a couple of orders of magnitude slower than devices programmed w/ a compiler. There is a myriad of experimental aviation applications where that level of performance would be adequate. Several years ago when I first started programming uControllers, I examined PICAXE & Parallax Stamps. I settled on the Stamps (They also have built-in interpreters). They are great for getting up and running simply & quickly, which is key for the initial learning curve, but I quickly outgrew them. As I'm sure you are aware the standard in BASIC programming w/ PICs is microEngineering Labs PICBASIC PRO Compiler. It is a great product and reasonably priced at $120-$270. I know several people who use & really like it. And, of course, Real Programmers program uCons in C ;) -Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 19:37 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft At 10:37 AM 4/10/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Looks good. Let's try to keep the option open to drop in the PICAXE 8 pin >chip in place of the standard PIC chip. I've been poking around the 'net trying to get a better picture of what the PICAXE is all about. If I am reading the postings right, PICAXE chips have an on-board interpreter for tokenized BASIC commands . . . these tend to be very slow with respect to what the chip can do with optimized object code. I saw some links for a basic compiler that targets PIC devices. http://www.sfcompiler.co.uk/swordfish/ I think this does a righteous compilation of the BASIC source code for much more efficient use of memory and greater speeds. I'm going out of town tomorrow with Dr. Dee. She has a conference to attend in Oklahoma City and I'll be driving her and three of her students to the conference. I'll have quite a bit of free time while they take care of business. I'll look a bit deeper into the Swordfish product and . . . there are undoubtedly others. I can see the allure of the PICAXE product for neophytes to get their juices flowing for herding bytes around in silicon. It would no doubt suffice for the wig-wag project too. But a serious compiler would let you run less expensive chips at their best speeds. I think there'a a place for both sets of tools. Since both tools target PIC products, the board layouts for things like the do-much architecture will work across both tools. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Mather" <peter(at)mather.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft
Date: Apr 11, 2012
Bob Picaxe is slow compare to compiled code - of course. However, this is more than made up for by ease of coding in many circumstances. Facilities like ADC, I2C,Serial,PWM etc are all implemented as single basic commands. Running a 08M2 at 32Mhz gives plenty of speed for most applications. I also use Swordfish when speed is an issue but this only works for 18F series chips (smallest is 18pin). Sourceboost works for 12F and 16F as well. In both cases hardware handling is at a much lower level so you need to spend much much more time with the PIC datasheet. Picaxe has a great support forum www.picaxeforum.co.uk Connection of the picaxe to a PC with a serial port for programming requires two resistors - nothing else, so with an 08M2 you can be up and running with a bit of stripboard for less than $2. Try it - you'll like it! Best Regards Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: 11 April 2012 04:37 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft --> At 10:37 AM 4/10/2012, you wrote: >--> > >Bob, > >Looks good. Let's try to keep the option open to drop in the PICAXE 8 >pin chip in place of the standard PIC chip. I've been poking around the 'net trying to get a better picture of what the PICAXE is all about. If I am reading the postings right, PICAXE chips have an on-board interpreter for tokenized BASIC commands . . . these tend to be very slow with respect to what the chip can do with optimized object code. I saw some links for a basic compiler that targets PIC devices. http://www.sfcompiler.co.uk/swordfish/ I think this does a righteous compilation of the BASIC source code for much more efficient use of memory and greater speeds. I'm going out of town tomorrow with Dr. Dee. She has a conference to attend in Oklahoma City and I'll be driving her and three of her students to the conference. I'll have quite a bit of free time while they take care of business. I'll look a bit deeper into the Swordfish product and . . . there are undoubtedly others. I can see the allure of the PICAXE product for neophytes to get their juices flowing for herding bytes around in silicon. It would no doubt suffice for the wig-wag project too. But a serious compiler would let you run less expensive chips at their best speeds. I think there'a a place for both sets of tools. Since both tools target PIC products, the board layouts for things like the do-much architecture will work across both tools. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> =0A>--> AeroElectric-L ist message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric .com>=0A>=0A>At 08:37 PM 4/10/2012, you wrote:=0A>Well, the good news is I flew my Kitfox IV for the first time last Saturday.=0A>=0A>- Great! Send me pictures.=0A>Pictures attached...also this You Tube flic - http://www. youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=acVvjlwjy5g-=0A>=0A >=0A>Saturday I put 1 hour of air time on the plane doing a racetrack patte rn, conversing with the class D tower many times without a hitch. Today I w ent up b-4 work talking to ground, the tower and then took the active. I co mmenced another racetrack pattern and when I went to contact tower to come down my radio went south (my 5 Amp fuse blew which is on the essential buss ).=0A>=0A>- What kind of radio? Garmin SL-40=0A>=0A>What a way to find o ut if your transponder is working or not as I squawked 7600 and came in via light gun.=0A>=0A>- It's always nice to have a plan-B,=0A>- or plan- C, or . . . Yep, the plan B radio (HT) was-conveniently left sitting in t he hanger...first thing I threw into the plane when I got back.-=0A>=0A>I have been running the system with both the main buss as well as the essent ial buss turned on...why?...because I have an alternator whine in the heads et when only the main switch is on. I found if I turned on the essential bu ss, the whine goes away. So to the questions:=0A>=0A>1.Should I not use the essential circuit unless it is, uh,well, essential to do so?=0A>=0A>- A ctually, it's an ENDURANCE bus intended=0A>- to supply power to devices most useful for=0A>- en route operations to MAXIMIZE utilization=0A>- of a limited resource . . . battery energy.=0A>=0A>- Of course this fea ture is operative only with=0A>- the battery contactor OFF and the alter nate feed=0A>- switch closed. There is no harm in conducing=0A>- norm al operations with both switches closed=0A>- but the noise symptoms you cited are puzzling. --...To me as well=0A>=0A>2. I have previously done a static (no engine running) Amp test across the essential switch with all loads going and even keyed the mic. The most I got out of the buss was 7A. =0A>=0A>- Very good . . . it won't go up much, if any,=0A>- with the engine running.=0A>=0A>I ask because Bob has a note not to go over 4A but I relayed this info here and some said it should not be an issue.=0A>=0A>- I'm pretty sure that the 4A reference was not=0A>- a limit. I think I've writted than an e-bus=0A>- load of 4A would probably be supported by an =0A>- 18 a.h. battery for duration of fuel aboard.=0A>- But if your des ign goals call for less endurance=0A>- and you need more current, so be i t. The point=0A>- is that you should PLAN for and then MAINTAIN=0A>- a known level of e-bus performance with the=0A>- alternator inoperative. Un derstood...will chew on that a little more and try to justify switching ano ther load to the main bus.=0A>=0A>3. My thoughts today have drifted to the bridge rectifier and I wonder if I might be better off using a good Schottk y Diode (ie...AEC9001-1) as I have noticed my voltage go up when I turn on the E-buss (I know this is common from some previous posts) just covering a ll bases.=0A>=0A>- There is an EXPECTED and NORMAL shift in=0A>- e-bus voltage when the alternate feed switch=0A>- is closed. This doesn't prese nt a performance=0A>- problem. The shift can be minimized by use=0A>- o f a low voltage drop device like the Schottky=0A>- diode but you won't be able to tell the difference=0A>- from the pilot's seat.=0A>=0A>4. So, I would welcome any thoughts of what to look at or ideas.=0A>=0A>- We need to figure out where this noise is=0A>- coming from and how it's getting i nto your=0A>- electronics. You're sure it's coming from=0A>- the altern ator? The only reason I connect it with the alternator is due to the whine following the RPMs of the engine. It is usually only noticeable during idle or slow taxi. As the RPM's hit about 3000...the whine frequency increases to such a high pitch it is not really detected ( or noticeable to the ear) -=0A>=0A>=0A>In other words, if you went=0A>- flying battery only, alte rnator off, would=0A>- the radio be quiet. This sounds like something to try (think I will stay on the ground first though)=0A>=0A>- Also, have yo u figured out why the fuse=0A>- opened? I have not. I didn't have time to check all of the fuses but didn't notice anything else inop. Will take a c loser look today. As my radio (5A) fuse is the largest one on the E-Bus, I was thinking it odd it was the only one that went.-=0A>Thanks for the ide as...Will report more later today.=0A>Dan=0A>=0A>=0A>- Bob . . . =0A>=0A> ==0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 11, 2012
Bob and all, I agree with the plan to start with the PIC12F683 since you have those in stock and the board is designed. As you noted there is a drop in PICAXE replacement for those interested in that option. I am planning to code the wig-wag function using the standard Microchip development tools using C. I ordered the PICkit 1 Flash Starter Kit directly from Microchip on Monday for $36 plus shipping and it is scheduled to arrive today. See Part Number: DV164101 at http://www.microchip.com/. There are some newer development tools that can handle newer PIC devices but this is a good kit to get started with the PIC12F series I checked on the SWORDFISH Basic compiler and it appears to only support the 18F family, 12F does not seem to be supported. As noted by many there are lots of options for software development from assemply code (which is what real men use, higher order languages are for wimps), compiled C and BASIC, interpreted BASIC, and code from flowcharts. Lots of options are good, an advantage to using PIC, and I am sure there are more that have not been mentioned. Any single software development solution would not target a wide enough user base to make these types of modules viable for anything but limited use. I am very pleased to see that there are more responses coming in from software folks, I was afraid I was stuck in a sea of hardware folks. I won't start with the war stories on embedded software development. Here is a Dilbert that shows how the war story saga ends... Anyway, welcome software folks and let's here lot's of ideas on what you would like to see happen with this project... Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370540#370540 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/28703strip_963.gif ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
Got to the plane after work and first checked the other fuses on the E-Bus. ..they were all ok. They include the SL-40, transponder, Garmin 396, HZ sta b elect. trim, intercom and nav lights. As previously mentioned, the 5 A fu se for the radio was the only one that went when I keyed the mic.-=0AI re placed the fuse, pulled the plane out and taxied around getting radio check s from ground here and there and it worked fine.-=0ASo...for the whine in the radio, yes, -it is an alternator whine. While the engine was running I turned off the ALT and the noise went away. (I still find it strange tha t the whine goes away when I turn on the E-Switch). Again, the noise become s too high of a frequency to hear once the plane hits 3300 RPM. I took the plane back to the hanger and started following -my "fat" wire that goes t o the main bus. I found that it did parallel several small wires and came v ery close to the radio. Thought for sure I had it, so I re-routed the fat w ire away from most other wires. Started it up...no joy. Still had the whine . I didn't have time today but I was thinking about isolating the com anten na to see if I might be getting a ground loop. I have EVERYTHING in the pla ne going to a ground bus with the exception of the com antenna (located in the vertical stab). There I tied into the chrome alloy frame instead of run ning a ground wire all the way back to the front. Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it...any guestimates?=0AThanks, =0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nu ckolls, III" =0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matro nics.com =0A>Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:50 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElec tric-List: Looking for suggestions=0A> =0A>--> AeroElectric-List message po sted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0A>=0A>A t 08:37 PM 4/10/2012, you wrote:=0A>Well, the good news is I flew my Kitfox IV for the first time last Saturday.=0A>=0A>- Great! Send me pictures. =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Saturday I put 1 hour of air time on the plane doing a racetrack pattern, conversing with the class D tower many times without a hitch. Today I went up b-4 work talking to ground, the tower and then took the active. I commenced another racetrack pattern and when I went to conta ct tower to come down my radio went south (my 5 Amp fuse blew which is on t he essential buss).=0A>=0A>- What kind of radio?=0A>=0A>What a way to fi nd out if your transponder is working or not as I squawked 7600 and came in via light gun.=0A>=0A>- It's always nice to have a plan-B,=0A>- or p lan-C, or . . .=0A>=0A>I have been running the system with both the main bu ss as well as the essential buss turned on...why?...because I have an alter nator whine in the headset when only the main switch is on. I found if I tu rned on the essential buss, the whine goes away. So to the questions:=0A> =0A>1.Should I not use the essential circuit unless it is, uh,well, essenti al to do so?=0A>=0A>- Actually, it's an ENDURANCE bus intended=0A>- t o supply power to devices most useful for=0A>- en route operations to MA XIMIZE utilization=0A>- of a limited resource . . . battery energy.=0A> =0A>- Of course this feature is operative only with=0A>- the battery contactor OFF and the alternate feed=0A>- switch closed. There is no har m in conducing=0A>- normal operations with both switches closed=0A>- but the noise symptoms you cited are puzzling.=0A>=0A>2. I have previously done a static (no engine running) Amp test across the essential switch with all loads going and even keyed the mic. The most I got out of the buss was 7A.=0A>=0A>- Very good . . . it won't go up much, if any,=0A>- with the engine running.=0A>=0A>I ask because Bob has a note not to go over 4A b ut I relayed this info here and some said it should not be an issue.=0A>=0A >- I'm pretty sure that the 4A reference was not=0A>- a limit. I think I've writted than an e-bus=0A>- load of 4A would probably be supported by an=0A>- 18 a.h. battery for duration of fuel aboard.=0A>- But if your design goals call for less endurance=0A>- and you need more current, so b e it. The point=0A>- is that you should PLAN for and then MAINTAIN=0A>- a known level of e-bus performance with the=0A>- alternator inoperative. =0A>=0A>3. My thoughts today have drifted to the bridge rectifier and I won der if I might be better off using a good Schottky Diode (ie...AEC9001-1) a s I have noticed my voltage go up when I turn on the E-buss (I know this is common from some previous posts) just covering all bases.=0A>=0A>- There is an EXPECTED and NORMAL shift in=0A>- e-bus voltage when the alternate feed switch=0A>- is closed. This doesn't present a performance=0A>- pr oblem. The shift can be minimized by use=0A>- of a low voltage drop devic e like the Schottky=0A>- diode but you won't be able to tell the differen ce=0A>- from the pilot's seat.=0A>=0A>4. So, I would welcome any thoughts of what to look at or ideas.=0A>=0A>- We need to figure out where this n oise is=0A>- coming from and how it's getting into your=0A>- electronic s. You're sure it's coming from=0A>- the alternator? In other words, if y ou went=0A>- flying battery only, alternator off, would=0A>- the radio be quiet.=0A>=0A>- Also, have you figured out why the fuse=0A>- opened? =============0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John MacCallum" <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Point me in the right direction
Date: Apr 12, 2012
Yep sounds like the previously diagnosed resistance joint in a connector not letting Enough current flow for the strobe to charge and trigger. Cheers John MacCallum -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2012 8:15 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Point me in the right direction --> Dave, You are correct! I just don't know where the problem was. I replaced all the wires and connectors today and the strobes worked! Thanks to everybody for your consideration. Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Lloyd Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 1:57 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Point me in the right direction Bill, That sounds like a marginal current flow path....meaning you can't pass enough reliable current to setup the strobe's needs to fire correctly. A continuity tester will sometimes lie to you as it needs very little current to show a good path. You could have a wire with all the strands broken except for one and the tester will indicate it is a good path. Look to for a poor/cold solder joint, wrong, corroded, contaminated or damaged pin in a connector and it could be that you have a wire break inside of the insulated covering. I have found this fault a time or two where a perfectly good wire is broken inside; maybe during manufacture or packaging mishandling, etc. Anyway, it sounds like a defective current path... Dave ___________________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 7:58 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Point me in the right direction > > > My strobes will not fire when they are plugged into the plane electrical > system. They will fire if 12V from a power supply is hooked up to them. > > The schematic is basically: battery, to master solenoid, to fuse, to > switch, > to strobe power supply. > > Sometimes it will fire once and stop and sometimes it will fire 6-7 times > and stop. > > I have continuity with the ground pin on the Molex power supply connector > to > aircraft ground. > > With the master on, I have 12V at the fuse, I have 12V incoming to the > switch. > > With the master on and the strobe switch off, I have .65V after the > switch. > > With the strobe switch on I have 12V after the switch. > > With the strobe switch on I have sometimes 12V, sometimes 10V, and > sometimes > 8V at the power pin in the connector going to the strobe power supply. > > At first I thought the switch was bad then that I have a loose connection > somewhere after the switch. It doesn't seem reasonable that all this > could > have happened at the same time. The strobes were fine till I was not able > to visit the plane for about 6 months. The problem happened when I > returned > and tried to power them up. > > I suppose the Molex connector pins could be loose but that doesn't explain > the low voltage. > > I plan to move the wire from the strobe switch to the position light > switch > tomorrow to see if that helps. None of the other light switches have > voltage after them with the switch off. > > Any suggestions? > > Bill B > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft At 10:07 AM 4/11/2012, you wrote: Bob and all, I am planning to code the wig-wag function using the standard Microchip development tools using C. I ordered the PICkit 1 Flash Starter Kit directly from Microchip on Monday for $36 plus shipping and it is scheduled to arrive today. See Part Number: DV164101 at http://www.microchip.com/. Okay. I I'll get the FAT fets laid onto the artwork, modify the do-lots schematic to agree, and get some boards ordered. I checked on the SWORDFISH Basic compiler and it appears to only support the 18F family, 12F does not seem to be supported. Hmmm . . . fooey. Keep us up to date on future recommendations/ discoveries. I used to write a lot of 6800/6502 assembler for embedded applications. I use Turbo Basic for test systems. I'd like to get salty with the RSC controllers but after one had the 150+ constellation of instructions in the legacy chips, it takes a whole new outlook on programming to get 'er done with less than 40! Any single software development solution would not target a wide enough user base to make these types of modules viable for anything but limited use. agreed I am very pleased to see that there are more responses coming in from software folks, I was afraid I was stuck in a sea of hardware folks. I won't start with the war stories on embedded software development. Here is a Dilbert that shows how the war story saga ends... Anyway, welcome software folks and let's here lot's of ideas on what you would like to see happen with this project... Had to put new tires on the car today so didn't get to 'play' . . . I'll have some time in the morning. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 12, 2012
Bob, As noted by Peter in an a previous note Sourceboost does provide C and BASIC compilers for PIC. I really have no prior experience with the PIC so I don't know the strengths and weaknesses of the various options. I just went with the Microchip solution since it gets you going for the least amount of money and is supported by Microchip. The free version of the compiler that comes with the Microchip IDE does not include all of the code optimizations, you have to pay to get the full featured version. Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370626#370626 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2012
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Dan, Did you put the electrolytic capacitor on the DC line coming from the voltage regulator per Rotax Installation manual page 111 and Z-16? that should take care of alternator whine. If you did put it in, make sure it's the correct value and it's hooked up correctly. Be careful if you disconnect it, they hold a charge for a long time (months!). Rick Girard On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote: > Got to the plane after work and first checked the other fuses on the > E-Bus...they were all ok. They include the SL-40, transponder, Garmin 396, > HZ stab elect. trim, intercom and nav lights. As previously mentioned, the > 5 A fuse for the radio was the only one that went when I keyed the mic. > I replaced the fuse, pulled the plane out and taxied around getting radio > checks from ground here and there and it worked fine. > So...for the whine in the radio, yes, it is an alternator whine. While > the engine was running I turned off the ALT and the noise went away. (I > still find it strange that the whine goes away when I turn on the > E-Switch). Again, the noise becomes too high of a frequency to hear once > the plane hits 3300 RPM. I took the plane back to the hanger and started > following my "fat" wire that goes to the main bus. I found that it did > parallel several small wires and came very close to the radio. Thought for > sure I had it, so I re-routed the fat wire away from most other wires. > Started it up...no joy. Still had the whine. I didn't have time today but I > was thinking about isolating the com antenna to see if I might be getting a > ground loop. I have EVERYTHING in the plane going to a ground bus with the > exception of the com antenna (located in the vertical stab). There I tied > into the chrome alloy frame instead of running a ground wire all the way > back to the front. Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it...any > guestimates? > Thanks, > Dan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:50 PM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Looking for suggestions > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > At 08:37 PM 4/10/2012, you wrote: > Well, the good news is I flew my Kitfox IV for the first time last > Saturday. > > Great! Send me pictures. > > > > Saturday I put 1 hour of air time on the plane doing a racetrack pattern, > conversing with the class D tower many times without a hitch. Today I went > up b-4 work talking to ground, the tower and then took the active. I > commenced another racetrack pattern and when I went to contact tower to > come down my radio went south (my 5 Amp fuse blew which is on the essential > buss). > > What kind of radio? > > What a way to find out if your transponder is working or not as I squawked > 7600 and came in via light gun. > > It's always nice to have a plan-B, > or plan-C, or . . . > > I have been running the system with both the main buss as well as the > essential buss turned on...why?...because I have an alternator whine in the > headset when only the main switch is on. I found if I turned on the > essential buss, the whine goes away. So to the questions: > > 1.Should I not use the essential circuit unless it is, uh,well, essential > to do so? > > Actually, it's an ENDURANCE bus intended > to supply power to devices most useful for > en route operations to MAXIMIZE utilization > of a limited resource . . . battery energy. > > Of course this feature is operative only with > the battery contactor OFF and the alternate feed > switch closed. There is no harm in conducing > normal operations with both switches closed > but the noise symptoms you cited are puzzling. > > 2. I have previously done a static (no engine running) Amp test across the > essential switch with all loads going and even keyed the mic. The most I > got out of the buss was 7A. > > Very good . . . it won't go up much, if any, > with the engine running. > > I ask because Bob has a note not to go over 4A but I relayed this info > here and some said it should not be an issue. > > I'm pretty sure that the 4A reference was not > a limit. I think I've writted than an e-bus > load of 4A would probably be supported by an > 18 a.h. battery for duration of fuel aboard. > But if your design goals call for less endurance > and you need more current, so be it. The point > is that you should PLAN for and then MAINTAIN > a known level of e-bus performance with the > alternator inoperative. > > 3. My thoughts today have drifted to the bridge rectifier and I wonder if > I might be better off using a good Schottky Diode (ie...AEC9001-1) as I > have noticed my voltage go up when I turn on the E-buss (I know this is > common from some previous posts) just covering all bases. > > There is an EXPECTED and NORMAL shift in > e-bus voltage when the alternate feed switch > is closed. This doesn't present a performance > problem. The shift can be minimized by use > of a low voltage drop device like the Schottky > diode but you won't be able to tell the difference > from the pilot's seat. > > 4. So, I would welcome any thoughts of what to look at or ideas. > > We need to figure out where this noise is > coming from and how it's getting into your > electronics. You're sure it's coming from > the alternator? In other words, if you went > flying battery only, alternator off, would > the radio be quiet. > > Also, have you figured out why the fuse > ics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_blank"> > http://www.matronics; - p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
Bob, did you have any other thoughts on this? Could the antenna grounding b e connected to hearing the Alt and or single out the 5A fuse to the radio. I have been reading the Connection again and I feel my next step might be t o add a cap & or an inductor.=0A=0AGot to the plane after work and first ch ecked the other fuses on the E-Bus...they were all ok. They include the SL- 40, transponder, Garmin 396, HZ stab elect. trim, intercom and nav lights. As previously mentioned, the 5 A fuse for the radio was the only one that w ent when I keyed the mic.-=0AI replaced the fuse, pulled the plane out an d taxied around getting radio checks from ground here and there and it work ed fine.-=0ASo...for the whine in the radio, yes, -it is an alternator whine. While the engine was running I turned off the ALT and the noise went away. (I still find it strange that the whine goes away when I turn on the E-Switch). Again, the noise becomes too high of a frequency to hear once t he plane hits 3300 RPM. I took the plane back to the hanger and started fol lowing -my "fat" wire that goes to the main bus. I found that it did para llel several small wires and came very close to the radio. Thought for sure I had it, so I re-routed the fat wire away from most other wires. Started it up...no joy. Still had the whine. I didn't have time today but I was thi nking about isolating the com antenna to see if I might be getting a ground loop. I have EVERYTHING in the plane going to a ground bus with the except ion of the com antenna (located in the vertical stab). There I tied into th e chrome alloy frame instead of running a ground wire all the way back to t he front. Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it...any guestimates?=0AThanks, =0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nu ckolls, III" =0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matro nics.com =0A>Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:50 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElec tric-List: Looking for suggestions=0A> =0A>--> AeroElectric-List message po sted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0A>=0A>A t 08:37 PM 4/10/2012, you wrote:=0A>Well, the good news is I flew my Kitfox IV for the first time last Saturday.=0A>=0A>- Great! Send me pictures. =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Saturday I put 1 hour of air time on the plane doing a racetrack pattern, conversing with the class D tower many times without a hitch. Today I went up b-4 work talking to ground, the tower and then took the active. I commenced another racetrack pattern and when I went to conta ct tower to come down my radio went south (my 5 Amp fuse blew which is on t he essential buss).=0A>=0A>- What kind of radio?=0A>=0A>What a way to fi nd out if your transponder is working or not as I squawked 7600 and came in via light gun.=0A>=0A>- It's always nice to have a plan-B,=0A>- or p lan-C, or . . .=0A>=0A>I have been running the system with both the main bu ss as well as the essential buss turned on...why?...because I have an alter nator whine in the headset when only the main switch is on. I found if I tu rned on the essential buss, the whine goes away. So to the questions:=0A> =0A>1.Should I not use the essential circuit unless it is, uh,well, essenti al to do so?=0A>=0A>- Actually, it's an ENDURANCE bus intended=0A>- t o supply power to devices most useful for=0A>- en route operations to MA XIMIZE utilization=0A>- of a limited resource . . . battery energy.=0A> =0A>- Of course this feature is operative only with=0A>- the battery contactor OFF and the alternate feed=0A>- switch closed. There is no har m in conducing=0A>- normal operations with both switches closed=0A>- but the noise symptoms you cited are puzzling.=0A>=0A>2. I have previously done a static (no engine running) Amp test across the essential switch with all loads going and even keyed the mic. The most I got out of the buss was 7A.=0A>=0A>- Very good . . . it won't go up much, if any,=0A>- with the engine running.=0A>=0A>I ask because Bob has a note not to go over 4A b ut I relayed this info here and some said it should not be an issue.=0A>=0A >- I'm pretty sure that the 4A reference was not=0A>- a limit. I think I've writted than an e-bus=0A>- load of 4A would probably be supported by an=0A>- 18 a.h. battery for duration of fuel aboard.=0A>- But if your design goals call for less endurance=0A>- and you need more current, so b e it. The point=0A>- is that you should PLAN for and then MAINTAIN=0A>- a known level of e-bus performance with the=0A>- alternator inoperative. =0A>=0A>3. My thoughts today have drifted to the bridge rectifier and I won der if I might be better off using a good Schottky Diode (ie...AEC9001-1) a s I have noticed my voltage go up when I turn on the E-buss (I know this is common from some previous posts) just covering all bases.=0A>=0A>- There is an EXPECTED and NORMAL shift in=0A>- e-bus voltage when the alternate feed switch=0A>- is closed. This doesn't present a performance=0A>- pr oblem. The shift can be minimized by use=0A>- of a low voltage drop devic e like the Schottky=0A>- diode but you won't be able to tell the differen ce=0A>- from the pilot's seat.=0A>=0A>4. So, I would welcome any thoughts of what to look at or ideas.=0A>=0A>- We need to figure out where this n oise is=0A>- coming from and how it's getting into your=0A>- electronic s. You're sure it's coming from=0A>- the alternator? In other words, if y ou went=0A>- flying battery only, alternator off, would=0A>- the radio be quiet.=0A>=0A>- Also, have you figured out why the fuse=0A>- opened? =============0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 13, 2012
Bob, Could you post a higher resolution version of the schematic that you provided in a previous post. It is hard for me to make out the details. The PICkit 1 Flash Starter Kit arrived from Microchip and I cleared some space on the bench, set up a PC to use for software development, connected the starter kit via USB (the LED's flashed as they should), loaded the Starter Kit software from the CD provided (this does the downloads to the PIC12F675 provided on the kit board). I also downloaded the latest Microchip MPLAB IDE (version 8.84) from the web (the CD provided is an older version). Checked that the download worked by loading the first tutorial lesson code and that seemed to work just fine. All-in-all no real problems getting things up and running. I will write up a short tutorial on how to get started for anyone who wants to do it. I will take a look at the tutorial lessons in the next few days. In fact the first tutorial covers switch debouncing and controlling LED's so I expect we have the core for the wig-wag software right there. Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370671#370671 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 13, 2012
Raymond, I second what Daniel says. I agree that C should be your next step if you have gotten your feet wet with BASIC on Stamp or PICAXE. C is pretty much the language used for most embedded software. >From a software engineering point of view it would have been nice if another language had come out as the leader. It is easy to get in a lot of trouble with C but most of the examples you see in tutorials for beginners keep you away from the problems by keeping the code well structured and avoiding the parts of C that are error prone. But don' be surprised when your get some unexpected behavior. It only takes a small typing error to get some amazing results in C. I also agree that learning at least one assembly language is useful for embedded software developers. In addition to improving your understanding of what is really going on with the processor, there are times when assembly language is useful (e.g., low level device drivers, high speed signal processing) even when the majority of the code is in C. But for the vast majority of applications C will get your job done quickly and it will generate fast enough code to get the job done. I also agree on the recommendation for Arduino. It provides the most widespread infrastructure support. The development environment for C on Arduino is easy install, easy to use, and well proven for the novice. There aren't too many applications that I can think of that haven't been covered by an Arduino example already in existence. Sparkfun and Adafruit are reliable suppliers in the US and the prices are reasonable. Arduino compatible shields (daughterboards) are available to interface with everything you can think of and ARM based motherboards that are compatible with the shields are available when you want to give that a try for even more processing power. There is nothing that has the infrastructure in place like Arduino. If am surprised that no one seems to have adapted one of the Arduino autopilots for hobby drones to use in an experimental aircraft. Maybe someone has but I have not heard of it as yet. I worked on the software for the navigation, guidance, and control systems on the original Tomahawk cruise missile and the capability most of the Arduino autopilots goes way beyond any of what was done there. They are called "experimental" aircraft but this is something not recommended for beginners. Kids, don't try this at home... But, it is hard to beat Arduino for developing embedded control of just about anything... Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370681#370681 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 13, 2012
> (I still find it strange that the whine goes away when I turn on the E-Switch Since the whine is still there after re-routing the fat wires, it seems as if the whine is filtered out when the current passes through the battery on its way from the alternator to the radio via the E-Bus switch. The easiest solution to the whine problem is to do nothing except to leave the E-Bus switch on. Doing so will not hurt anything unless the pilot forgets to shut it off at the end of a flight or forgets to shut it off in the event of smoke in the cockpit. Another possible solution is to install a filter in series with the radio or in series with the E-Bus diode. Or a large capacitor connected from the Radio 12V supply to ground might help. As for the radio fuse blowing, what type of fuse is it? The old automotive glass type of fuses are prone to fail. Even if the fuse is the ATC / ATO type, I would not be too concerned unless the fuse blows a second time. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370682#370682 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
Date: Apr 13, 2012
I will 3rd that. C is the way to go. It takes some effort to move from BASIC but it is worth it. Get the de facto C bible: "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan & Ritchie. I would also like to suggest that people look at the AVR line of uControllers from Atmel. I started many years ago on Parallax & pretty quickly needed more performance. Then I latched onto PIC because they are very popular in industry & I had some acquaintances who were professional electronic types, and they were using them. The thing I did not like about PIC was that you needed different programming hardware, software, techniques for different families of their uCons. I like to use the little 8-16 pin devices & they were difficult to get programmed in C. On the very small PICs, they recommend you program them in assembler. (this may have changed by now) So I began exploring AVR http://www.atmel.com/products/microcontrollers/avr/default.aspx and now primarily use them. I like: 1. One programming environment for their entire family 2. Their Tiny(tm) chips are programmed in C 3. All ATMEL development tools are free & pretty good 4. Very good programmer/debuggers are available for around $100. Aside from those differences, the product lines among uController manufacturers are surprisingly similar. So my logic at the time was, as a newbie, I did not want to go spend a couple of hundred dollars on programming tools (both software & hardware) only to find out later that the tools did not support the chip I had chosen or that I needed another emulator, etc. It seemed that Atmel made that decision much safer because the software tools are free. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gregmchugh Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 06:06 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft Raymond, I second what Daniel says. I agree that C should be your next step if you have gotten your feet wet with BASIC on Stamp or PICAXE. C is pretty much the language used for most embedded software. >From a software engineering point of view it would have been nice if another language had come out as the leader. It is easy to get in a lot of trouble with C but most of the examples you see in tutorials for beginners keep you away from the problems by keeping the code well structured and avoiding the parts of C that are error prone. But don' be surprised when your get some unexpected behavior. It only takes a small typing error to get some amazing results in C. I also agree that learning at least one assembly language is useful for embedded software developers. In addition to improving your understanding of what is really going on with the processor, there are times when assembly language is useful (e.g., low level device drivers, high speed signal processing) even when the majority of the code is in C. But for the vast majority of applications C will get your job done quickly and it will generate fast enough code to get the job done. I also agree on the recommendation for Arduino. It provides the most widespread infrastructure support. The development environment for C on Arduino is easy install, easy to use, and well proven for the novice. There aren't too many applications that I can think of that haven't been covered by an Arduino example already in existence. Sparkfun and Adafruit are reliable suppliers in the US and the prices are reasonable. Arduino compatible shields (daughterboards) are available to interface with everything you can think of and ARM based motherboards that are compatible with the shields are available when you want to give that a try for even more processing power. There is nothing that has the infrastructure in place like Arduino. If am surprised that no one seems to have adapted one of the Arduino autopilots for hobby drones to use in an experimental aircraft. Maybe someone has but I have not heard of it as yet. I worked on the software for the navigation, guidance, and control systems on the original Tomahawk cruise missile and the capability most of the Arduino autopilots goes way beyond any of what was done there. They are called "experimental" aircraft but this is something not recommended for beginners. Kids, don't try this at home... But, it is hard to beat Arduino for developing embedded control of just about anything... Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370681#370681 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 13, 2012
Jeff, On the PIC vs AVR question I am also getting the feeling that PIC may not be the best long-term choice. Bob has some PIC's in stock and has a board designed so I have no issue with supporting a software application for the wig-wag on that module. As I noted before I have no real experience with PIC, or with AVR for that matter, but I do see that PIC development tools are not universal. When I looked at adding a PICkit 3 Debug Express (their $45 low end debugging tool) to get real time debugging I found that I would have to also add an interface board ($9) then a debug board for each of the chips that do not have onboard debug support. The interface board essentially has a version of the chip in a larger DIP package to include the debugging support. Each of these goes for $25. So, as you change processors in the PIC line you are looking at additional cost for development tools. If Atmel works around this with universal tools then I think that is a significant plus in their favor. Not sure if the consistency between the general AVR chips and Arduino plays into this. Similar to PIC and PICAxe but not quite the same since Arduino runs compiled C code. Can a generic AVR chip be made Arduino compatible with the download of the Arduino Loader onto the chip? Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370721#370721 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
Date: Apr 13, 2012
Greg, I haven't had the time to play w/ Arduinos (but I know many people who have). I believe that Arduinos are AVR chips just like PICAXE are PICs and accomplish the same mission (i.e. making the chip more user-friendly) but I think they suffer a performance hit, also. I'm not familiar enough w/ Arduino to answer your question. -Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gregmchugh Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 10:49 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft Jeff, On the PIC vs AVR question I am also getting the feeling that PIC may not be the best long-term choice. Bob has some PIC's in stock and has a board designed so I have no issue with supporting a software application for the wig-wag on that module. As I noted before I have no real experience with PIC, or with AVR for that matter, but I do see that PIC development tools are not universal. When I looked at adding a PICkit 3 Debug Express (their $45 low end debugging tool) to get real time debugging I found that I would have to also add an interface board ($9) then a debug board for each of the chips that do not have onboard debug support. The interface board essentially has a version of the chip in a larger DIP package to include the debugging support. Each of these goes for $25. So, as you change processors in the PIC line you are looking at additional cost for development tools. If Atmel works around this with universal tools then I think that is a significant plus in their favor. Not sure if the consistency between the general AVR chips and Arduino plays into this. Similar to PIC and PICAxe but not quite the same since Arduino runs compiled C code. Can a generic AVR chip be made Arduino compatible with the download of the Arduino Loader onto the chip? Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370721#370721 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 13, 2012
Yes, check out this fairly minimal implementation here: http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/Arduino-Pro-schematic.pdf U2 is the 3.3v or 5v regulator, depending on the board variant, and the odd-looking 0.1uF cap (C2) coupled to DTR allows the serial dongle to reset the chip. This makes programming the Arduino simpler with many of the USB<->serial TTL converters out there. (the chip must be reset to enter the bootloader, and if it times out before programming begins, it will not work. This allows the Arduino IDE to enter the bootloader/programming mode without requiring the user to press reset) Additionally, following the 'FTDI Basic' header convention at JP5 gives you several options for plug-and-play arduino programmers. (Make sure you pick the right one, either 3.3v or 5v!) And don't forget the ISP port JP3 so you can load the Arduino bootloader, or alternately load programs with AVR Studio and an AVR ISP device, without taking the chip out of the board. Overall, making an Arduino clone should be pretty straightforward. --Daniel On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:49 PM, gregmchugh wrote: > Can a > generic AVR chip be made Arduino compatible with > the download of the Arduino Loader onto the chip? > > Greg McHugh ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John MacCallum" <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
Date: Apr 14, 2012
The Whine is a function of ripple in the output Voltage of the Alternator and it is dependent on current flow. Depending on how you have wired things up when you turn the E bus on you are most likely reducing the current being drawn from the main Alternator. Less Current, less voltage sag from the Peak Voltage on the Main Buss and therefore less whine. I would re-visit all of the connections in the Main Buss to main alternator. The Voltage regulation needs to be checked as well. Is it Internal or external? Check the condition of the Alternator Slip rings and brushes if these are ok sometimes replacing the diode pack gets rid of a noisy diode. If no joy with the above try getting rid of it by installing an output capacitor and is this doesn't solve the problem investigate a high current Loss Pass filter arrangement with an Choke in series and the filter capacitor in Parallel. You can buy these high current chokes these days quite easily from a Car Audio specialist supply house. Cheers John MacCallum VH-DUU 41016 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 Sent: Saturday, 14 April 2012 12:12 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions --> > (I still find it strange that the whine goes away when I turn on the > E-Switch Since the whine is still there after re-routing the fat wires, it seems as if the whine is filtered out when the current passes through the battery on its way from the alternator to the radio via the E-Bus switch. The easiest solution to the whine problem is to do nothing except to leave the E-Bus switch on. Doing so will not hurt anything unless the pilot forgets to shut it off at the end of a flight or forgets to shut it off in the event of smoke in the cockpit. Another possible solution is to install a filter in series with the radio or in series with the E-Bus diode. Or a large capacitor connected from the Radio 12V supply to ground might help. As for the radio fuse blowing, what type of fuse is it? The old automotive glass type of fuses are prone to fail. Even if the fuse is the ATC / ATO type, I would not be too concerned unless the fuse blows a second time. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370682#370682 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
Thanks Joe and John, that gives me some more to think about and tinker with. Unfortunately the alternator is tucked into the back of a Rotax 912S and the only way to get to it would be to pull the engine. Will try several of the other things first and then may just live with it for as long as I can. Appreciate the thoughts and suggestions, Dan ________________________________ From: user9253 <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com> Sent: Fri, April 13, 2012 7:11:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions > (I still find it strange that the whine goes away when I turn on the E-Switch Since the whine is still there after re-routing the fat wires, it seems as if the whine is filtered out when the current passes through the battery on its way from the alternator to the radio via the E-Bus switch. The easiest solution to the whine problem is to do nothing except to leave the E-Bus switch on. Doing so will not hurt anything unless the pilot forgets to shut it off at the end of a flight or forgets to shut it off in the event of smoke in the cockpit. Another possible solution is to install a filter in series with the radio or in series with the E-Bus diode. Or a large capacitor connected from the Radio 12V supply to ground might help. As for the radio fuse blowing, what type of fuse is it? The old automotive glass type of fuses are prone to fail. Even if the fuse is the ATC / ATO type, I would not be too concerned unless the fuse blows a second time. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370682#370682 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 13, 2012
I was not thinking very clearly when I posted above that the alternator current passes through the battery on its way to the radio via the E-bus switch. The moving electrons get closer to the battery but do not pass through it. The filter suggested by John MacCallum is worth a try. I am curious to know if the diode has anything to do with the alternator whine. With the E-bus switch remaining off, short across the diode with a jumper to see if the whine goes away. The alternator on the Rotax 912 is actually a single phase dynamo with permanent magnets. Other than a wire breaking, there is not very much that can go wrong with it. The permanent magnets are integral with the flywheel. As long as the engine is running, so are the magnets spinning with the flywheel. The external voltage regulator also rectifies the AC output of the dynamo. It is not as easy to smooth out the AC ripple of the Rotax single phase dynamo compared to a 3 phase alternator. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370753#370753 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 2012
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
Another option is a $20. Atmel Butterfly demo board from digi-key. It is based on the Atmel 169 and has many on board capabilities to grow into. For example I use a Butterfly to monitor amphib gear position, hydraulic pressure, engine rpm and to trigger appropriate voice alerts. It also integrates EFI pulses and displays fuel flow and fuel remaining for me on its aphanumeric LCD display. Not bad for $20. of hardware. The butterfly comes with a 3 volt coin cell or it accepts external power and it also just needs a serial (RS232) cable to program it. Ken On 13/04/2012 4:45 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Daniel > Hooper > > Yes, check out this fairly minimal implementation here: > > http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/Arduino-Pro-schematic.pdf > > U2 is the 3.3v or 5v regulator, depending on the board variant, and > the odd-looking 0.1uF cap (C2) coupled to DTR allows the serial > dongle to reset the chip. This makes programming the Arduino simpler > with many of the USB<->serial TTL converters out there. (the chip > must be reset to enter the bootloader, and if it times out before > programming begins, it will not work. This allows the Arduino IDE to > enter the bootloader/programming mode without requiring the user to > press reset) > > Additionally, following the 'FTDI Basic' header convention at JP5 > gives you several options for plug-and-play arduino programmers. > (Make sure you pick the right one, either 3.3v or 5v!) And don't > forget the ISP port JP3 so you can load the Arduino bootloader, or > alternately load programs with AVR Studio and an AVR ISP device, > without taking the chip out of the board. > > Overall, making an Arduino clone should be pretty straightforward. > > --Daniel > > On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:49 PM, gregmchugh wrote: > >> Can a generic AVR chip be made Arduino compatible with the download >> of the Arduino Loader onto the chip? >> >> Greg McHugh > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
From: "maca2790" <vk2gcn(at)cirruscomms.com.au>
Date: Apr 13, 2012
I'm not familiar with the Rotax Alternator/ Dynamo A Dynamo is a DC device that is self exciting but an Alternator can be either self exciting or externally excited. Don't short out the Diode because if it's a Alternator you will induce a dead short to ground. I just looked at the Circuit diagram. From the diagram it appears to be an Alternator. If Joe is correct with it being only single phase output then that is the source of the whine. The Ripple frequency will be twice the Alternators RPM. Probably exactly in the right range for it to be annoying in the Headset. Switching the external Alternator on reduces the current flow from the Internal and transfers it to the other. ( the one with the highest output Voltage wins) If you want to stick with the Internal Alternator you really don't have much choice but to try a Low Pass Filter as I suggested. I would leave the External Alternator on and run off it if it has the Capacity to do that. cheers John MacCallum Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370761#370761 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2012
> Don't short out the Diode because if it's a Alternator you will induce a dead short to ground. John MacCallum, Maybe we are talking about different diodes. I was referring to the E-Bus diode. Shorting across it (not to ground) will not hurt anything because current is limited by the E-Bus loads. If I read Dan's posts correctly, his plane (wired per Z-16) only has one dynamo, no alternator. Although an alternator is available as an option for the Rotax 912. But it would add expense, weight, and a bulge in the cowling. John, I like your suggestion of trying a filter. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370767#370767 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
John and Joe,-=0AAgain thank you for your assistance...Joe is correct in I am only operating off of the internal Rotax Alt/ Dynamo. Understanding th at the dynamo is only a single phase makes sense that the peak interference would be a bit higher. As previously indicated, I have been questioning th e diode between the main and e-bus as well. The thought to jumper (bypass) the diode is a good idea before I go buy either one of the schottkey diodes from Bob or try another Radio Shack bridge rectifier (which is currently i n place). Sticking a filter / choke is certainly an inexpensive effort also . I might even test my 22,000uf cap to see if it is bad or not as it should be giving some help coming off of the external regulator. Always a good ti me running down the gremlins.=0ADan=0A=0A>________________________________ =0A> From: user9253 <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matron ics.com =0A>Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 3:05 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric -List: Re: Looking for suggestions=0A> =0A>--> AeroElectric-List message po sted by: "user9253" =0A>=0A>=0A>> Don't short out th e Diode because if it's a Alternator you will induce a dead short to ground .=0A>=0A>John MacCallum,=0A>Maybe we are talking about different diodes.- I was referring to the E-Bus diode.- Shorting across it (not to ground) will not hurt anything because current is limited by the E-Bus loads.=0A> - If I read Dan's posts correctly, his plane (wired per Z-16) only has on e dynamo, no alternator.- Although an alternator is available as an optio n for the Rotax 912.- But it would add expense, weight, and a bulge in th e cowling.=0A>- John, I like your suggestion of trying a filter.=0A>Joe =0A>=0A>--------=0A>Joe Gores=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online her e:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370767#370767=0A> =- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle ===========0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2012
Here is a simple and foolproof method of testing the Rotax 22,000F capacitor. Buy a miniature 12V lamp, Radio Shack 272-1141, or equivalent. Remove the capacitor from the circuit and charge it with 12vdc (observe polarity). Disconnect the charging power source. Connect the miniature lamp to the capacitor. The lamp should glow brightly at first, then slowly dim as the capacitor is discharged. The total time from when the lamp first illuminates until it stops glowing red should be about 15 seconds. At least my lamp did. Your parts may vary. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370786#370786 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
That is indeed probably an excellent and simple test for this situation. Not sure it is completely foolproof though. (is anything?) I've replaced capacitors in other applications that were within limits for capacitance (which this test checks) but they had too high Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR) to effectively filter a power supply. Apologies for splitting hairs but claims of anything being "completely foolproof" always sounds like a challenge to me ;) As far as the original thread goes I would add that I've never bothered to install the often recommended capacitor on my single phase 20 amp John Deere permanent magnet alternator/dynamo and have never had any alternator noise. However it is in a z-14 configuration which means it is always connected to a small 8AH battery. Ken On 14/04/2012 2:50 PM, user9253 wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > "user9253" > > Here is a simple and foolproof method of testing the Rotax 22,000F > capacitor. Buy a miniature 12V lamp, Radio Shack 272-1141, or > equivalent. Remove the capacitor from the circuit and charge it with > 12vdc (observe polarity). Disconnect the charging power source. > Connect the miniature lamp to the capacitor. The lamp should glow > brightly at first, then slowly dim as the capacitor is discharged. > The total time from when the lamp first illuminates until it stops > glowing red should be about 15 seconds. At least my lamp did. Your > parts may vary. Joe > > -------- Joe Gores > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Oklahoma/Kansas Storms last night
Yesterday, the National Weather Service was predicting atmospheric conditions for extra-ordinary convective activity over the central US. Dr. Dee and I had driven a group of her students to a conference in Oklahoma City which ended Friday. We decided to come home earlier than planned. Norman, OK got hit Friday Night. Dr. Dee stayed with the family in Wichita. I took the students home to Lindsborg and returned to Medicine Lodge. The trip from Lindsborg to M.L. was right down the middle of two lines of storms that were moving parallel to my ground track! Didn't get a drop of rain on two hour trip home. Around 10 p.m. last night, a tornado formed that followed almost exactly the same track as the storm that devastated Andover, KS in 1991. This one did some damage to McConnell AFB/Boeing facilities, Hawker Beechcraft, and many residential areas. http://tinyurl.com/7ta64v3 I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to contact a close associate who still works for HBC and lives in a house at the n.e. corner of a mobile home park across the street from HBC's Plant IV. Our house was several miles to the north and sustained only straight winds damage to some shingles and flashing. Some strong cells moved over the Medicine Lodge area several hours apart but I've not heard any reports of tornadic activity from those storms. Except for Doug's whereabouts and welfare, all those close to us are confirmed to be okay. Our neighbors in Tornado Alley have got some heavy hauling and rebuilding to do. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
At 08:33 AM 4/15/2012, you wrote: > >That is indeed probably an excellent and simple test for this situation. > >Not sure it is completely foolproof though. (is >anything?) I've replaced capacitors in other >applications that were within limits for >capacitance (which this test checks) but they >had too high Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR) >to effectively filter a power supply. > >As far as the original thread goes I would add >that I've never bothered to install the often >recommended capacitor on my single phase 20 amp >John Deere permanent magnet alternator/dynamo >and have never had any alternator noise. However >it is in a z-14 configuration which means it is >always connected to a small 8AH battery. This has the look and smell of a ground-loop issue. A few years back, I looked at the relative effectiveness of filtering the ripple component off a the B&C SD-8 alternator. One captured trace can be seen here: http://tinyurl.com/73tusru Here you can see a ripple component on the order of 2.5 volts pk-pk. When the capacitor was disconnected, there was little, if any, observable difference in the 'noise'. We also know that except for conditions where the battery is being heavily charged or discharged, the battery's effective impedance across the bus is very high. Thus, batteries are of little service in reducing noises that wiggle the bus around in the range of 12.5 to 14.5 volts Given the demonstrated success of PM alternator installations on so many airplanes it seems likely that the problem in this case has more to do with a variable in grounding than any failure of a component to perform as advertised. Bob . . . >Ken > >On 14/04/2012 2:50 PM, user9253 wrote: >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >>"user9253" >> >>Here is a simple and foolproof method of testing the Rotax 22,000F >>capacitor. Buy a miniature 12V lamp, Radio Shack 272-1141, or >>equivalent. Remove the capacitor from the circuit and charge it with >>12vdc (observe polarity). Disconnect the charging power source. >>Connect the miniature lamp to the capacitor. The lamp should glow >>brightly at first, then slowly dim as the capacitor is discharged. >>The total time from when the lamp first illuminates until it stops >>glowing red should be about 15 seconds. At least my lamp did. Your >>parts may vary. Joe >> >>-------- Joe Gores >> > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
Joe, that's a good thought using a lamp...If one has a simple Volt meter / multi meter, you could actually watch the numbers come down as the discharg e occurs. Might want to throw a small resistor in there to generate a bit o f a load. What I'm not certain of is what the potential -voltage would be expected on a full 22,000uF. Using a lower end MM would need to set the V -high enough I believe.-=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>____________________________ ____=0A> From: user9253 <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@ma tronics.com =0A>Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 11:50 AM=0A>Subject: AeroEle ctric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions=0A> =0A>--> AeroElectric-List messa ge posted by: "user9253" =0A>=0A>Here is a simple an d foolproof method of testing the Rotax 22,000=C2=B5F capacitor.- =0A>Buy a miniature 12V lamp, Radio Shack 272-1141, or equivalent.- =0A>Remove t he capacitor from the circuit and charge it with 12vdc (observe polarity). =0A>Disconnect the charging power source.=0A>Connect the miniature lamp to the capacitor.=0A>The lamp should glow brightly at first, then slowly dim a s the capacitor is discharged.=0A>The total time from when the lamp first i lluminates until it stops glowing red should be about 15 seconds.- At lea st my lamp did.- Your parts may vary.=0A>Joe=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Joe Gores =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matro =========================0A =========================0A =========================0A >=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Oklahoma/Kansas Storms last night
Bob, I was thinking about how you were fairing the last couple days. Glad t o hear you and yours are ok.=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>____________________________ ____=0A> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0A >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 7:29 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Oklahoma/Kansas Storms last night=0A> =0A ls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0A>=0A>Yesterday, the National Weather Service was predicting atmospheric=0A>conditions for extra-ordinary convective activit y over the=0A>central US.=0A>=0A>Dr. Dee and I had driven a group of her st udents to=0A>a conference in Oklahoma City which ended Friday.=0A>We decide d to come home earlier than planned. Norman,=0A>OK got hit Friday Night. Dr . Dee stayed with the family=0A>in Wichita. I took the students home to Lin dsborg and=0A>returned to Medicine Lodge.=0A>=0A>The trip from Lindsborg to M.L. was right down the middle=0A>of two lines of storms that were moving parallel to my=0A>ground track! Didn't get a drop of rain on two hour trip =0A>home.=0A>=0A>Around 10 p.m. last night, a tornado formed that=0A>follow ed almost exactly the same track as the storm that=0A>devastated Andover, K S in 1991. This one did some damage=0A>to McConnell AFB/Boeing facilities, Hawker Beechcraft,=0A>and many residential areas.=0A>=0A>http://tinyurl.com /7ta64v3=0A>=0A>I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to contact a close=0A>ass ociate who still works for HBC and lives in a house at the=0A>n.e. corner o f a mobile home park across the street from=0A>HBC's Plant IV.=0A>=0A>Our h ouse was several miles to the north and sustained=0A>only straight winds da mage to some shingles and flashing.=0A>=0A>Some strong cells moved over the Medicine Lodge area several=0A>hours apart but I've not heard any reports of tornadic activity=0A>from those storms. Except for Doug's whereabouts an d welfare,=0A>all those close to us are confirmed to be okay.=0A>=0A>Our ne ighbors in Tornado Alley have got some heavy hauling=0A>and rebuilding to d =============0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft At 07:54 AM 4/15/2012, you wrote: > The days of writing machine code are over except for the simplest > tasks that somehow need specialized hand tweaking. Agreed. A little 8-pin PIC watching a bus voltage to flash a light . . . or a timer to wig-wag the landing lights is just such a 'simple' task that yields nicely to programming in assembler. But as soon as you need to do any math beyond a simple integer add/subtract the glow is off the assembler rose. If I were teaching a hands-on class in uC product development, we'd certainly use assembler to explore the various registers. But evolution into higher order functionality is not well served by learning to the assembler necessary to do floating point math or deeply nested prioritizing of tasks. Not exploiting advantages of higher order language compilers is like running a roofing company without nailguns. If your roofers or programmers are getting a good wage and have a deadline to meet, efficient use of manpower and time is the name of the game. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Oklahoma/Kansas Storms last night
Date: Apr 15, 2012
Bob,=0A=0ASo glad to hear everyone is OK at your place. =C2-Our thoughts and prayers go out to all affected by the storms. =C2-And best wishes t o the HBC folks.=0ABlue skies & tailwinds,=0ABob Borger=0AEuropa XS Tri, R otax 914 w/ Intercooler & Airmaster C/S Prop=0ALittle Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming AEIO-320 EXP=0A3705 Lynchburg Dr.=0ACorinth, TX 76208-5331=0AH: 9 40-497-2123=0AC: 817-992-1117=0A=0AOn Apr 15, 2012, at 09:29 AM, "Robert L . Nuckolls, III" wrote:=0A=0A--> AeroElect ric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroel ectric.com>=0A=0AYesterday, the National Weather Service was predicting at mospheric=0Aconditions for extra-ordinary convective activity over the=0Ac entral US.=0A=0ADr. Dee and I had driven a group of her students to=0Aa co nference in Oklahoma City which ended Friday.=0AWe decided to come home ea rlier than planned. Norman,=0AOK got hit Friday Night. Dr. Dee stayed with the family=0Ain Wichita. I took the students home to Lindsborg and=0Aretu rned to Medicine Lodge.=0A=0AThe trip from Lindsborg to M.L. was right dow n the middle=0Aof two lines of storms that were moving parallel to my=0Agr ound track! Didn't get a drop of rain on two hour trip=0Ahome.=0A=0AAround 10 p.m. last night, a tornado formed that=0Afollowed almost exactly the s ame track as the storm that=0Adevastated Andover, KS in 1991. This one did some damage=0Ato McConnell AFB/Boeing facilities, Hawker Beechcraft,=0Aan d many residential areas.=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/7ta64v3=0A=0AI've been t rying, unsuccessfully, to contact a close=0Aassociate who still works for HBC and lives in a house at the=0An.e. corner of a mobile home park across the street from=0AHBC's Plant IV.=0A=0AOur house was several miles to the north and sustained=0Aonly straight winds damage to some shingles and fla shing.=0A=0ASome strong cells moved over the Medicine Lodge area several=0A hours apart but I've not heard any reports of tornadic activity=0Afrom tho se storms. Except for Doug's whereabouts and welfare,=0Aall those close to us are confirmed to be okay.=0A=0AOur neighbors in Tornado Alley have got ===================0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 15, 2012
Dan, A resistor is not necessary as the lamp provides a load. The voltage of a capacitor can never be more than the voltage that was used to charge it up. According to Ken and Bob's posts above, a capacitor is not very effective at alleviating noise. Are the headset jacks electrically isolated from the aircraft frame with insulating washers? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370863#370863 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: user9253 <fran4s ew(at)banyanol.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Sunday, A pril 15, 2012 8:45 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for sugges @banyanol.com>=0A>=0A>Dan,=0A>A resistor is not necessary as the lamp provi des a load.=0A>Yeah, I was just thinking of getting around not using the la mp and getting a digital reading of the discharging cap.=0A>The voltage of a capacitor can never be more than the voltage that was used- to charge i t up.=0A>..I am always willing to be corrected and learned...but I must-d isagree-that if a 22,000mF is filled up, then when discharged there will be a much higher initial voltage reading than let's say the 12 V battery th at charged it. Example: if you take one of the disposable cameras that use a flash and run a positive and negative lead off of that electrolytic cap.. .hook it up to a volt meter and press the button, I have gotten between 300 and 400 volts each time. Most of these cameras use a AA (or 1.5V cell).=0A >- According to Ken and Bob's posts above, a capacitor is not very effect ive at alleviating noise. Agreed...so I might want to look at a choke?=0A> - Are the headset jacks electrically isolated from the aircraft frame wit h insulating washers? Yes, the jacks were the first thing I checked when I was-introduced to my system whine. Could that frame-grounded antenna in t he back be a factor?=0A>=0A>=0A>Thanks for all the assistance. And someone set me straight if I am off base about the caps holding high voltages.=0A>D an-=0A>Joe=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Joe Gores=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topi c online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370863# =========================0A ===============0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: 1mitchkelly(at)comcast.net
Subject: Magneto grounding
I have Slick 4301 magnetos and ACS A-510-2K ignition / starter switch. Operation is normal, however when I measure resistance between p-lead (either mag) and ground with switch set to Both, it reads zero. This is not what I expected, what am I missing? Mitch ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
On 04/15/2012 02:46 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote: > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* user9253 > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2012 8:45 AM > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions > > > > > Dan, > A resistor is not necessary as the lamp provides a load. > Yeah, I was just thinking of getting around not using the lamp and > getting a digital reading of the discharging cap. > The voltage of a capacitor can never be more than the voltage that > was used to charge it up. > ..I am always willing to be corrected and learned...but I must > disagree that if a 22,000mF is filled up, then when discharged > there will be a much higher initial voltage reading than let's say > the 12 V battery that charged it. Example: if you take one of the > disposable cameras that use a flash and run a positive and > negative lead off of that electrolytic cap...hook it up to a volt > meter and press the button, I have gotten between 300 and 400 > volts each time. Most of these cameras use a AA (or 1.5V cell). > According to Ken and Bob's posts above, a capacitor is not very > effective at alleviating noise. Agreed...so I might want to look > at a choke? > Are the headset jacks electrically isolated from the aircraft > frame with insulating washers? Yes, the jacks were the first thing > I checked when I was introduced to my system whine. Could that > frame-grounded antenna in the back be a factor? > > Thanks for all the assistance. And someone set me straight if I am > off base about the caps holding high voltages. > Dan > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > Sorry Joe, but what you're seeing with the disposable flash camera capacitor is the result of the charging circuit. It takes high voltage to fire a flash tube. The flash circuit takes the low DC battery voltage and drives a 'switching' (oscillator) power supply with it to make AC. There's a tiny transformer (or possibly a 'ladder diode/capacitor' type circuit) in the unit that takes the low voltage AC & steps it up to several hundred volts, & then there's a high voltage rectifier that converts it back to DC, which charges the high voltage capacitor that you found. If you put your meter leads on the cap itself, fire the flash, and watch the meter as the flash recharges, you will probably be able to watch the voltage rise to several hundred volts as the capacitor takes on its charge for the next flash. If you're lucky enough to get one with markings on it, look at the voltage rating. It will be higher than whatever voltage you are measuring. A 12V capacitor (at any capacitance) will turn into a mini-grenade if you hit it with several hundred volts. > http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/camera-flash2.htm Hope that helps, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John MacCallum" <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Magneto grounding
Date: Apr 16, 2012
That is correct Mitch, the Mag P leads are open circuit on both. If you put the switch to Left the Right P lead will show a short to ground and the Left will be open circuit. Then if you reverse it and switch to the Right Mag the Left will be grounded. Cheers John MacCallum VH-DUU RV 10 #41016 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 1mitchkelly(at)comcast.net Sent: Monday, 16 April 2012 6:26 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Magneto grounding I have Slick 4301 magnetos and ACS A-510-2K ignition / starter switch. Operation is normal, however when I measure resistance between p-lead (either mag) and ground with switch set to Both, it reads zero. This is not what I expected, what am I missing? Mitch ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
Date: Apr 15, 2012
Dan; There is no way for a capacitor to attain a voltage higher than that which was used to charge it. The camera is a bad example because it more closely resembles your strobes whose capacitor might indeed be several hundred volts, but it is not charged by directly applying battery voltage. There is electronic circuitry involved which can theoretically apply any voltage which the designer of the circuit decides he needs to attain. The power source might indeed be a 1.5V battery but this tells us nothing about what circuitry is attached to that battery, certainly it is not directly connected to the flash capacitor. Different story with the 22,000uF cap for the charging circuit which is directly connected to the 12V battery circuit, therefore starts out at approximately 12V. As for your noise, as Bob suggested, you might want to try to eliminate potential ground loops thus eliminating the means by which the noise is being introduced in the first place rather than by trying to lower it's affect after it's been introduced. Depending on the integrity of the various connections in the audio/radio/antenna circuit then the antenna ground could possibly be part of a ground loop. We are assuming that the co-ax connector for that antenna is wired correctly and that you're not depending on the local ground to be part of the antenna circuit, only the attachment to the ground plane??????????? Bob McC _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Billingsley Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:46 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions _____ From: user9253 <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 8:45 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions Dan, A resistor is not necessary as the lamp provides a load. Yeah, I was just thinking of getting around not using the lamp and getting a digital reading of the discharging cap. The voltage of a capacitor can never be more than the voltage that was used to charge it up. ..I am always willing to be corrected and learned...but I must disagree that if a 22,000mF is filled up, then when discharged there will be a much higher initial voltage reading than let's say the 12 V battery that charged it. Example: if you take one of the disposable cameras that use a flash and run a positive and negative lead off of that electrolytic cap...hook it up to a volt meter and press the button, I have gotten between 300 and 400 volts each time. Most of these cameras use a AA (or 1.5V cell). According to Ken and Bob's posts above, a capacitor is not very effective at alleviating noise. Agreed...so I might want to look at a choke? Are the headset jacks electrically isolated from the aircraft frame with insulating washers? Yes, the jacks were the first thing I checked when I was introduced to my system whine. Could that frame-grounded antenna in the back be a factor? Thanks for all the assistance. And someone set me straight if I am off base about the caps holding high voltages. Dan Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370863#370863<; - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Magneto grounding
On 04/15/2012 03:25 PM, 1mitchkelly(at)comcast.net wrote: > > I have Slick 4301 magnetos and ACS A-510-2K ignition / starter switch. > Operation is normal, however when I measure resistance between p-lead > (either mag) and ground with switch set to Both, it reads zero. This > is not what I expected, what am I missing? > > Mitch > > What you're seeing is a normal reading. With the mag switch 'on' (so the mag can operate), you are reading the DC resistance of the magneto coil primary winding, which is so close to zero that a regular ohm meter can't read it accurately. It will look like a dead short. The *impedance* (in quick & dirty terms, the AC resistance) is higher, but your ohm meter can't measure that. This is the reason for 'buzz boxes', used to set the timing of magnetos. They generate an AC signal that's fed into the mag, and can detect the difference between reading across the coil or seeing a truly dead short, when the points inside the mag are closed (or your mag switch is set to 'off'). Hope that helps, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
This has the look and smell of a ground-loop issue. A few years back, I looked at the relative effectiveness of filtering the ripple component off a the B&C SD-8 alternator. One captured trace can be seen here: I was surprised that I had not posted the constellation of plots that explored numerous operating conditions relating to SD-8 noise plots. I found the data I recalled, posted it to aeroelectric.com and re-organized the data plots folder on the website. Here's the SD-8 stuff in total. http://tinyurl.com/7yr9h4p Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 15, 2012
> someone set me straight if I am off base about the caps holding high voltages The high voltage that charges a capacitor in a camera flash does not come directly from the battery. Pulsing battery current is applied to the primary of a transformer. High voltage from the transformer secondary is what charges the capacitor. If a 22,000F capacitor is charged on the workbench, the capacitor will never have a higher voltage than whatever was applied to it. Below are a couple of links to camera flash circuits. Joe http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/kflashm.gif http://www.increa.com/reverse/dc/ -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370892#370892 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Magneto grounding
At 03:48 PM 4/15/2012, you wrote: >That is correct Mitch, the Mag P leads are open >circuit on both. If you put the switch to Left >the Right P lead will show a short to ground >and the Left will be open circuit. Then if you >reverse it and switch to the Right Mag =C2 the Left will be grounded. It's a bit more complex than that. A magneto has a core of magnetic material which can be 'excited' by a rotating magnet rotated on a shaft. One winding has many turns of very fine wire in which converts the rapidly changing magnetic flux from the rotating core magnet to a high voltage pulse (4-8,000 volts). This pulse is routed through a distributor to the appropriate plug wire to cause a spark across the plug's gap in the cylinder. A second winding of very few turns of heavy wire is connected to the magneto's interrupter 'points'. The schematic of this arrangement is shown here: Emacs! As long as the points are closed, a dead short exists across the primary winding and the rate of rise of magnetic flux within the core is retarded. As the points open, that retarding force is suddenly removed allowing the high voltage to be generated and distributed to the appropriate plug. Setting the position of this 'opening event' with respect to crankshaft and piston position is accomplished in a "timing procedure". The primary winding has VERY low dc resistance. So when you measure the resistance on a magneto's p-lead to ground, it is difficult if not impossible to detect when the points open as the shaft is rotated. This is why magneto "timing lights" have little buzzers or electronic oscillators inside to generate an AC excitation signal which sees a much larger AC impedance jump as the points open. http://tinyurl.com/6ttzr94 Shower-of-Sparks ignition systems excite the primary still more strongly and repetitively during cranking to generate a stream of sparks when the points open. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Shower-of-Sparks/ShowerOfSparks.pdf But unless your measurement system for resistance has resolution in the milliohms range . . . like this one . . . http://tinyurl.com/6o5kqub You won't be able to use an ohmmeter to either measure the primary coil resistance -OR- detect a open/close event on the magneto's points. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 15, 2012
Bob and all, I had a little more time to play with the PICkit 1 Flash Starter Kit since my last update on the project. In our last episode, I had loaded the Hex file that come with Lesson 1 onto the board and it seemed to function fine (you push a button and an LED changes state). Next, I checked that I could reassemble and load from the code that came with Lesson 1 (switch debouncing). Worked fine with the latest MPLAB IDE that I downloaded from Microchip. Hex file seems to function the same but it is different than the hex file that come with the kit. Not unusual for this to happen (assembled years later with a newer version of the toolchain). Something I may take some time to look at but since I am planning to use the C version not something critical to do. I next compiled the C code that came with the lesson and it had one error (due to a missing define to allow the use of legacy header files) and two warnings (the count for the timer was defined as 20. instead of 20, not sure why, giving a warning about float to integer conversion). A Google search solved the first one and the second one was readily found by looking at the warning message. The legacy header define is needed to allow older code to be compiled under the current toolchain. I would guess that no one got the job of updated the C code that comes with the Starter Kit to reflect changes in the standard header files. Downloaded the hex file produced that had been produced from the C code and it seems to function as expected. All in all, about what I would be expecting at this point. Getting to this point would be pretty easy for anyone familiar with embedded software development but a novice might have gotten stuck along the way. The MPLAB IDE is feature filled which is good for experienced users but can be daunting for a novice. Next I will do any porting required to move over from the PIC12F675 to the PIC12F683. Time to take a look at the datasheets for the chips and find any significant differences. I have only the MPLAB simulator to investigate how the code executes and I will next spend some time learning how that works. Seems pretty straightforward but I have only stepped through the code. Need to see how to set up the external stimulus inputs into the simulator. Again seems to me like something that is pretty familiar but I am not sure how a novice would look at it. I decided to go ahead and order the low-end debugger (PICkit 3 Debug Express plus an interface adapter and the PIC12F683 ICD Header) from Microchip. That should be coming tomorrow and I will have access to debugging in the chip. So, for those keeping score the Flash Starter Kit is $36, the Debug Express is $70, the interface adapter is $10, and the ICD header for a specific chip is $25. I would call this reasonable cost to get what you get but a novice might say it was too much to get started. You could get by with just the Starter Kit but I like having a view into the chip as the code is running. You could skip the Flash Starter Kit and go with the just the Debug Express but the Starter Kit does have all of the hardware to support the tutorials and some prototyping area to play around with. The PICAXE and Arduino folks get around the debug issue by keeping the serial interface open to the development PC, allowing debug messages to be displayed. Works fine for most simple applications but it would tie up two pins on our 8 pin device. That is enough for now, I am still planning to write up a short summary of all of this for anyone who wants to give it a try. Only a few small gotcha's up to this point... Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370902#370902 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
Joe,-Apologies-in order and I once again stand corrected. Dang little e lectrons...just when I think I'm getting a grasp on em they change directio ns. I certainly learned something here and enjoyed looking at the camera fl ash schematic...makes sense now.-=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>_____________________ ___________=0A> From: user9253 <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric- list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 2:23 PM=0A>Subject: Aer oElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions=0A> =0A>--> AeroElectric-List m essage posted by: "user9253" =0A>=0A>=0A>> someone s et me straight if I am off base about the caps holding high voltages=0A>=0A >The high voltage that charges a capacitor in a camera flash does not come directly from the battery.- Pulsing battery current- is applied to the primary of a transformer.- High voltage from the transformer secondary is what charges the capacitor.=0A>- If a 22,000=C2=B5F capacitor is charged on the workbench, the capacitor will never have a higher voltage than what ever was applied to it.=0A>- Below are a couple of links to camera flash circuits.=0A>Joe=0A>http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/kflashm.gif=0A>=0A>http:// www.increa.com/reverse/dc/=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Joe Gores=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ==================0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Bob McCallum <rober t.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Sun , April 15, 2012 2:14:09 PM=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking f or suggestions=0A=0A =0ADan;=0A =0AThere is no way for a capacitor to attai n a voltage higher than that which was =0Aused to charge it. The camera is a bad example because it more closely resembles =0Ayour strobes whose capac itor might indeed be several hundred volts, but it is =0Anot charged by dir ectly applying battery voltage. There is electronic circuitry =0Ainvolved w hich can theoretically apply any voltage which the designer of the =0Acircu it decides he needs to attain. The power source might indeed be a 1.5V =0Ab attery but this tells us nothing about what circuitry is attached to that =0Abattery, certainly it is not directly connected to the flash capacitor. =0ADifferent story with the 22,000uF cap for the charging circuit which is directly =0Aconnected to the 12V battery circuit, therefore starts out at a pproximately =0A12V. Now understood=0A =0AAs for your noise, as Bob suggest ed, you might want to try to eliminate =0Apotential ground loops thus elimi nating the means by which the noise is being =0Aintroduced in the first pla ce rather than by trying to lower it=99s affect after =0Ait=99s been introduced. Depending on the integrity of the various connections in =0Athe audio/radio/antenna circuit then the antenna ground could possibly b e part =0Aof a ground loop. We are assuming that the co-ax connector for th at antenna is =0Awired correctly and that you=99re not depending on t he local ground to be part of =0Athe antenna circuit, only the attachment t o the ground plane??????????? Well, =0Ayou might be on to something here. T he ground of the coax (outer wire) WAS =0Aconnected to my air-frame (tube & fabric plane) to operate AS the ground plane. =0AThis was done on my buddi es Kitfox and has operated without a hitch for 8 years. =0AHe is very reada ble and transmits with no issue. As a Ham radio operator I am =0Avery aware of how a ground plane should be installed and I would have made one =0Aif I had the room under the antenna (I don't) As mentioned in an =0A earlier post, my com antenna is built into the vertical stab (again how a f riend =0Ahas his). The differences between the two planes IS how the elect rical systems =0Aare installed. I went with Z-16 and all grounds going to a bus (but not the =0Aantenna). The tower says my transmissions are clear an d the reception is good as =0Awell, but it sure is sounding like I created a ground loop. Guess I will need to =0Afigure out what to do with the anten na.=0AThanks Bob & Bob,=0ADan=0A =0ABob McC=0A =0A=0A______________________ __________=0A =0AFrom:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mail to:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan =0ABillin gsley=0ASent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:46 PM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matron ics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions=0A =0A =0A =0A>=0A________________________________=0A =0A>From:user9253 =0A>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 8:45 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for sugge @banyanol.com>=0A>=0A>Dan,=0A>A resistor is not necessary as the lamp provi des a load.=0A>Yeah, I was just thinking of getting around not using the la mp and getting a =0A>digital reading of the discharging cap.=0A>The voltage of a capacitor can never be more than the voltage that was used to =0A>ch arge it up.=0A>..I am always willing to be corrected and learned...but I mu st disagree that if =0A>a 22,000mF is filled up, then when discharged there will be a much higher =0A>initial voltage reading than let's say the 12 V battery that charged it. =0A>Example: if you take one of the disposable cam eras that use a flash and run a =0A>positive and negative lead off of that electrolytic cap...hook it up to a volt =0A>meter and press the button, I h ave gotten between 300 and 400 volts each time. =0A>Most of these cameras u se a AA (or 1.5V cell).=0A> According to Ken and Bob's posts above, a capa citor is not very effective at =0A>alleviating noise. Agreed...so I might w ant to look at a choke?=0A> Are the headset jacks electrically isolated fr om the aircraft frame with =0A>insulating washers? Yes, the jacks were the first thing I checked when I =0A>was introduced to my system whine. Could t hat frame-grounded antenna in the back =0A>be a factor?=0A> =0A>Thanks for all the assistance. And someone set me straight if I am off base =0A>about the caps holding high voltages.=0A>Dan =0A>Joe=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Joe Gores =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matro nics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370863#370863<; - The =0A>AeroElectric-L ist Email Forum -=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List =0A>=0A>FORUMo available via the Web Forums!=0A>========= ================0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=0Ahttp://forum ============== =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
> (I don't) As mentioned in an earlier post, my com antenna > is built into the vertical stab (again how a friend has his). The > differences between the two planes IS how the electrical systems > are installed. I went with Z-16 and all grounds going to a bus (but > not the antenna). The tower says my transmissions are clear and the > reception is good as well, but it sure is sounding like I created a > ground loop. Guess I will need to figure out what to do with the antenna. I really doubt that the coax ground to the airframe is the culprit here . . . unless for some strange, as yet undiscovered reason it is the ONLY ground for that radio or cluster of black boxes. Do all of your box-grounds go to the common power bus and all shield and signal grounds connect to their respective LO or GND pins on the boxes? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 15, 2012
I am trying to understand why a ground loop causes problems with audio noise. To me, a ground loop means that the negative side of the electrical system is connected to ground at two or more points. Current has two possible parallel paths: either through the negative wire or through the airframe. If any voltage is dropped between the two points where the negative wire is grounded, then the current going to one load will affect the voltage and thus the current gong to the other load. It would seem that a similar effect could occur on the positive side of the circuit. If the current of two or more loads shares the same conductor, then varying-current going to one load could affect the current going to another load. In Dan's airplane, maybe the voltage dropped across the E-Bus diode is causing the dynamo whine in the audio system. It would be interesting to know if shorting out that diode eliminates the noise. Another experiment to try would be to shut off unneeded loads on the E-Bus to see if reducing total current will reduce the noise. The ideal electrical system would be grounded at only one point; thus no current whatsoever would flow through the airframe. That is difficult to accomplish since avionics are internally grounded to their cases. Even if each load had discrete conductors, they all must eventually merge at the source (alternator or dynamo). Why doesn't the current of one load affect the current of another load, since they are combined at the source? Bob, do you have any words of wisdom to explain the physics involved? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370914#370914 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2012
Subject: Converting to externally reg alternator
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Is the alternator in picture "externally regulated"? Bob Verwey Safari ZU-AJF On 02/04/2012, Bob Verwey wrote: > Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day > only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the > reserve battery power give a safe reserve? > > Bob Verwey > > > On 02/04/2012, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote: >> Consider the fact that if automobile regulators had a lower failure rate >> if >> they were externally regulated, auto makers would use them. The fact is >> that >> BRAND NEW (not rebuilt) Nippon Denso alternators seem to have a >> nearly-zero >> failure rate. >> >> Then make your decision. I have had several builders send me their >> external >> regulators for examination. This cemented my opinion permanently. >> >> >> Eric, >> >> I believe that perhaps Bob does agree with you, in that the >> internally regulated alternator has "nearly-zero" but NOT ZERO failure. >> Apparently there have been some cases of catastrophic over voltage with >> no >> way to shut it down, when in the air. Have you found this to be the case >> with the externally regulated alternators? With the external regulator, >> when you shut off power to the regulator it positively shuts down the >> alternator. >> >> I personally feel that the risk is very low with the >> internal regulation, but also wonder why TC aircraft have continued to >> use >> external regulation. >> >> Roger >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
At 06:52 AM 4/16/2012, you wrote: >Is the alternator in picture "externally regulated"? > >Bob Verwey >Safari ZU-AJF The parts list for spares lists a regulator so I would guess that the regulator is internal to the machine. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>- I real ly doubt that the coax ground=0A>- to the airframe is the culprit here . . .=0A>- unless for some strange, as yet undiscovered=0A>- reason it is the ONLY ground for that radio=0A>- or cluster of black boxes.=0A>=0A> - Do all of your box-grounds go to the=0A>- common power bus -If you were asking do all the box-grounds go to a common ground bus? Yes I have a ground bus on the firewall that passes through to engine compartment. ALL g rounds for anything electrical on either side of the firewall was sent to t his ground bus. Even sent a braided wire to the engine block.=0A>and all sh ield and=0A>- signal grounds connect to their respective=0A>- LO or GND pins on the boxes? This I will need to check again, but my initial answer is I'm fairly certain. The other thing I have discovered in my system yeste rday...I went to the airport in the morning only to find the new battery de ad. I charged it and came back later in the day and it was good to go. I ch ecked both-buses-with everything off and found the Master bus was showi ng 24mV being pulled. The E-bus was 0 volts. Didn't have time to trace the -======================== =========== =0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
At 11:52 PM 4/15/2012, you wrote: I am trying to understand why a ground loop causes problems with audio noise. To me, a ground loop means that the negative side of the electrical system is connected to ground at two or more points. Current has two possible parallel paths: either through the negative wire or through the airframe. If any voltage is dropped between the two points where the negative wire is grounded, then the current going to one load will affect the voltage and thus the current gong to the other load. Close. This isn't about dual paths in the same system, it's about SHARED paths in two systems where a strong antagonist (alternator, strobe, motor) induces noisy current into a path SHARED by a potential victim (audio system, small signal instrumentation, etc). The ideal electrical system would be grounded at only one point; thus no current whatsoever would flow through the airframe. That is difficult to accomplish since avionics are internally grounded to their cases. Yes. The design goal is to insure that ALL potential victims in a constellation of appliances have no shared ground paths with potential antagonists. Example: Grounding the headsets and/or microphones locally causes tiny audio signals to be carried on an airframe path shared with currents flowing into or out of alternators, etc. This is why the avionics ground was crafted. http://tinyurl.com/7hvmat6 The idea is to CLUSTER all grounds for potential victims together on the panel before taking a jumper to power ground on the airframe or at the fire wall. General rules for avoiding ground loops is illustrated in the Z-figures: http://tinyurl.com/6m3bk8k http://tinyurl.com/7fnbhqn http://tinyurl.com/6w87rvb Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
The other thing I have discovered in my system yesterday...I went to the airport in the morning only to find the new battery dead. I charged it and came back later in the day and it was good to go. I checked both buses with everything off and found the Master bus was showing 24mV being pulled. The E-bus was 0 volts. Didn't have time to trace the culprit load. Not sure that a tiny voltage on the bus is significant. With everything turned OFF, disconnect a battery lead and put your multimeter in SERIES with that battery lead and measure CURRENT. If you have a battery bus, there may be some device like a clock or a device needing memory support voltage connected to it. A few milliamps of constant drain is not a big deal . . . as long as you KNOW and AGREE to the use of that energy. But for most airplanes, this current will for all practical purposes be ZERO. Refresh my memory: What's your radio/audio system look like? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Regarding Capacitor Filters
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Apr 16, 2012
I have watched the conversation regarding the big capacitor for filtering the generator/alternator/dynamo/etc. and want to make a few comments: 1) Usually a capacitor doesn't get charged to a higher voltage that was applied. But this is not true in all cases. Capacitors can and do "space charge" (all by themselves) to extremely high voltages. Really big, efficient, very high ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance--usually high voltage) caps are stored and shipped with a shorting strap for this reason. And yes, this doesn't have much to do with OUR situation. ...but just sayin'....don't learn stuff that ain't true. 2) Capacitors are almost always used with a "bleeder" resistor that guarantees that any retained charge will be dissipated in a short time after the power is removed. A capacitor is really a battery that should be disconnected or discharged if you are going to crash your airplane. You can calculate this (Google "capacitor bleed resistor calculator") but for general purposes a 200 ohm 2W resistor across the capacitor terminals will lower 15V to 5V in 5 seconds for a 22000 uF cap). Should you add one? Consider that the resistor improves the filtering all by itself and only add 75 mA to the load. So YES! 2) An electrolytic capacitor can be subjected to any number of insults. Some of these can easily be prevented. Lets look at a typical part: A CDE Capacitor about the size of a D-cell battery: SLPX223M025H5P330 X 40 mm. 25 Vdc (32 Vdc Surge) High applied voltages damage the foil plates. These plates are self-healing usually, but they steadily degrade. Use a parallel Zener with a Vz below the withstand V of the capacitor for a longer, happier life. Temperature. Keep the cap far away from major heat sources (easy). Keep the cap from extreme cold (harder). Watch those environmental specs. Capacitor actually perform better HOT, but have shorter lifetimes. At -40C cold (brrrrrr) the capacitance is about 1/10 of what it is when hotbut they warm up fast. Common Electrolytic caps have a limited lifetimein this example 3000 hours. So you should perhaps replace it with at engine TBO, or if permanency is what you want, choose a different part. For filtering, a capacitor is only part of the answer. Any decent filter uses a resistor (R), an inductor (L), in addition to a capacitor (C). These are called RLC filters, and usually have a small ceramic cap and a Zener too. Standard automotive filters are made like this and work fine in 14.5V aircraft applications. See: http://www.jmkfilters.com/autofilterssc1.htm -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371002#371002 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> =0A>=0A>The other thin g I have discovered in my system yesterday...I went to the airport in the m orning only to find the new battery dead. I charged it and came back later in the day and it was good to go. I checked both buses with everything off and found the Master bus was showing 24mV being pulled. The E-bus was 0 vol ts. Didn't have time to trace the culprit load.=0A>=0A>=0A>- Not sure th at a tiny voltage on the bus is significant.=0A>- With everything turned OFF, disconnect a battery lead and=0A>- put your multimeter in SERIES w ith that battery lead and=0A>- measure CURRENT. If you have a battery bu s, there may=0A>- be some device like a clock or a device needing memory =0A>- support voltage connected to it. A few milliamps of=0A>- consta nt drain is not a big deal . . . as long as you=0A>- KNOW and AGREE to t he use of that energy. But for most=0A>- airplanes, this current will fo r all practical purposes=0A>- be ZERO.=0A>=0A>- Refresh my memory: Wh at's your radio/audio system=0A>- look like?=0A>PM1000=0A>Garmin SL-40 =0A>I also took a shortcut doing pinouts between avionics with a commercial junction box made by-http://www.approachfaststack.com/hubs.html- I use d the Pro-X.=0A>It was quite a time saver, they have good reviews and they were quite-thorough. If interested I have a connection schematic from the m.=0A>Dan-=0A>=0A>- Bob . . . =0A>=0A>-=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Apr 16, 2012
Bob, Since noise can be caused by two or more circuits sharing the same conductor, would it help to use a larger conductor? Have any experiments been done comparing noise with various wire sizes? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371015#371015 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
Joe,=0A=0AA larger conductor would help only if the noise you perceive is c ausing problems is actually an offset voltage caused by current times resis tance in the wire. -In other words, current pulled by one load can cause an offset voltage for the second load, and the second load can't handle the offset.=0A=0ABut noise is AC with a spectrum content up there at high freq uencies. -So when you say "noise," let's assume it is high frequency nois e. If this is true, increasing conductor size only helps if it decreases it s impedance, which is unlikely. -You're better off rewiring such that eac h load has its own dedicated ground and power wires.=0A-=0AHenador Titzof f=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: user9253 <fran4sew@b anyanol.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:08 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions ol.com>=0A=0ABob,=0ASince noise can be caused by two or more circuits shari ng the same conductor, would it help to use a larger conductor?- Have any experiments been done comparing noise with various wire sizes?=0AJoe=0A=0A --------=0AJoe Gores=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp:/ /forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371015#371015=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =========================0A =================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
Subject: Re: Regarding Capacitor Filters
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Eric! As always, fascinating and informative for us techno 'heat seekers' out there! Bob Verwey On 17/04/2012, Eric M. Jones wrote: > > > I have watched the conversation regarding the big capacitor for filtering > the generator/alternator/dynamo/etc. and want to make a few comments: > > 1) Usually a capacitor doesn't get charged to a higher voltage that was > applied. But this is not true in all cases. Capacitors can and do "space > charge" (all by themselves) to extremely high voltages. Really big, > efficient, very high ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance--usually high > voltage) caps are stored and shipped with a shorting strap for this reason. > And yes, this doesn't have much to do with OUR situation. ...but just > sayin'....don't learn stuff that ain't true. > > 2) Capacitors are almost always used with a "bleeder" resistor that > guarantees that any retained charge will be dissipated in a short time after > the power is removed. A capacitor is really a battery that should be > disconnected or discharged if you are going to crash your airplane. You can > calculate this (Google "capacitor bleed resistor calculator") but for > general purposes a 200 ohm 2W resistor across the capacitor terminals will > lower 15V to 5V in 5 seconds for a 22000 uF cap). Should you add one? > Consider that the resistor improves the filtering all by itself and only add > 75 mA to the load. So YES! > > 2) An electrolytic capacitor can be subjected to any number of insults. Some > of these can easily be prevented. Lets look at a typical part: A CDE > Capacitor about the size of a D-cell battery: SLPX223M025H5P330 X 40 mm. 25 > Vdc (32 Vdc Surge) > > High applied voltages damage the foil plates. These plates are self-healing > usually, but they steadily degrade. Use a parallel Zener with a Vz below the > withstand V of the capacitor for a longer, happier life. > > Temperature. Keep the cap far away from major heat sources (easy). Keep the > cap from extreme cold (harder). Watch those environmental specs. Capacitor > actually perform better HOT, but have shorter lifetimes. At -40C cold > (brrrrrr) the capacitance is about 1/10 of what it is when hotbut they > warm up fast. > > Common Electrolytic caps have a limited lifetimein this example 3000 > hours. So you should perhaps replace it with at engine TBO, or if permanency > is what you want, choose a different part. > > For filtering, a capacitor is only part of the answer. Any decent filter > uses a resistor (R), an inductor (L), in addition to a capacitor (C). These > are called RLC filters, and usually have a small ceramic cap and a Zener > too. Standard automotive filters are made like this and work fine in 14.5V > aircraft applications. > > See: http://www.jmkfilters.com/autofilterssc1.htm > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371002#371002 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Apr 17, 2012
Tip: As in most cool electro-parts, "Deal Extreme" has Arduino (and other) parts and a vast selection of extremely cheap accessories for wanna-be-programmers. Cheap cheap cheap. And free shipping. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371029#371029 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
From: Doug Ilg <doug.ilg(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Shuttle fly-by
I just got down from the roof of the building I work in.- We =0Awatched t he Space Shuttle Discovery do its tour or DC atop its 747 =0Acarrier.- It made 2 passes very close to our building (we are under the =0Aflight path for National Airport) with a T-38 in trail.- I'd attach a =0Apicture, but we aren't allowed to have cameras, here.=0A=0AVery cool.- And a bit sad. =0AThought all you aviation groupies might be interested.=0A-=0ADoug Ilg =0AGrumman Tiger N74818, College Park-Airport (KCGS), Maryland=0AChalleng er II LSS LW (N641LG-reserved)-- kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W18) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: The wild and wooly world of environmental compatability
At 07:02 AM 4/17/2012, you wrote: Joe, A larger conductor would help only if the noise you perceive is causing problems is actually an offset voltage caused by current times resistance in the wire. In other words, current pulled by one load can cause an offset voltage for the second load, and the second load can't handle the offset. But noise is AC with a spectrum content up there at high frequencies. So when you say "noise," let's assume it is high frequency noise. If this is true, increasing conductor size only helps if it decreases its impedance, which is unlikely. You're better off rewiring such that each load has its own dedicated ground and power wires. Henador Titzoff Henador brings up an excellent point. The energy sources we like to bundle together under the heading of "antagonists" has a spectrum of qualities that include manifestations of current, voltage, frequency, magnetic field, electric field and even mass and velocity. The situations we encounter most in small airplanes are those that cause buzzes, whines, pops and other audible effects. Then too we see changes in performance in response to keying an on-board transmitter or flying past a high energy RF source. But the spectrum of potential antagonists goes lower than audio down to DC. I related a story in the 'Connection where a LongEz builder complained of his engine gages shifting when the alternator was turned on/off. This was an instance where the instruments were 'grounded' up front at the battery . . . the sensors were 'grounded' at the rear on the engine. The two 'grounds' were tied together with a 10AWG piece of wire. The several hundred millivolt shift in potential between the two grounds as a result of alternator current upset the instruments that were capable of displaying differences in the tens of millivolts. I worked what one might call the ultimate ground loop example for RF on an airplane that featured a HF communications antenna as part of the leading edge structure of the vertical fin. This was a 'product upgrade' from the legacy long-wire antenna that used to adorn the top of the airplane. Owners of these $10 million$ airplanes really liked it when those wires disappeared. Emacs! Problem was, what used to be a high voltage, low current excitation of a wire was morphed into a low voltage, high current excitation of structure. The 'antenna' part of the new design worked fine. However, the 'ground' part of the system was designed decades earlier to be strong, the right shape and corrosion resistant. None of the various parts of the airplane structure were attached to each other in anticipation of carrying high current flows at 2 to 30 Mhz. The unanticipated result gave us antagonistic levels of RF in the 'hell hole' that far exceeded the susceptibilities limits for several systems that were also designed and qualified onto the airplane decades earlier. Further, the problem manifested only at specific frequencies that shifted from airplane to airplane. The problem I was tasked with involved generator regulators that shut down when the transmitter was keyed on specific frequencies. I couldn't expect all those regulators to be replaced with modern and more robust designs. I ended up crafting a filter-connector . . . Emacs! Emacs! . . . which was nothing more than capacitors bypassing certain pins to ground under the connector's back shell. We COULD have ordered a custom connector with those capacitors already installed but this was Dec 5th and I was working a group of airplanes that had to be delivered before Jan 1. I mentioned antagonists with mass and velocity. When designing hardware for spacecraft, the well schooled system designer calls for radiation hardening of the purchased products. Cosmic rays flying through the memory cell of a computer chip can change the state of that cell thus corrupting the data it represents . . . or even killing the cell making it useless. Products we delivered to the Navy had to be qualified to work aboard aircraft carriers with megawatt pulsed radars on board. Whole different ball game. Henador reminds us that artful system integration demands a careful matching of design goals for performance against environmental conditions that go far beyond temperature, humidity, vibration, etc. The short answer to your question is, "Yes. Changing the size of the antagonist conductor will have an influence on the level of perceived interference." I will suggest that MOST airplanes flying today probably have some measurable level of interference effects between many combinations of two systems . . . they're just small enough to be insignificant from the pilot's perspective. As I discussed in the chapter on noise, beating the 'noise' down to acceptable (if not zero) effects requires identification of victim, antagonist and propagation mode. Attenuating propagation may prove to be the elegant solution. However, eliminating the propagation mode is the best. In the case of ground loops, careful attention to architecture will drive the potential for propagation via that pathway to zero. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Shuttle fly-by
At 09:30 AM 4/17/2012, you wrote: >I just got down from the roof of the building I work in. We watched >the Space Shuttle Discovery do its tour or DC atop its 747 >carrier. It made 2 passes very close to our building (we are under >the flight path for National Airport) with a T-38 in trail. I'd >attach a picture, but we aren't allowed to have cameras, here. > >Very cool. And a bit sad. It's good that these fledgling examples of 'space travel' be preserved and remembered for the benefits realized and the risks endured to get this far. The REALLY sad fact is that the folks who designed, crafted, maintained and flew these machines do not have the next generation trailing in their footsteps. But maybe things are going along as they should be. There was a short time in aviation history that airplanes like this were the epitome of successful design goals . . . http://tinyurl.com/7jn9rgl The machines that replaced them were so much faster that one didn't need to Plan on sleeping through part of the trip . . . or exploiting the work-product of an on-board chef! The succeeding generations now carry us through lethal atmospheres at speeds many times faster than driving at a fraction of the cost of driving. The future is yet to come . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft The ECB layout is done. I'll put it down for a few hours and then 'proof' it against the schematic. I'll publish the ECB layout and schematic as soon as I've confirmed their agreement. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
At 09:24 PM 4/16/2012, you wrote: We need to do some experiments to see where the noise is getting into the system. When you CAN hear the noise, is it affected by the volume control on the radio? Does your transmitter have a side-tone feature, in other words, can you hear yourself in the headphones when you talk on the transmitter? Does the noise go away when you transmit? If I recall correctly, the noise does go away when you close the alternate feed switch to the e-bus. Just for grins, lets try bypassing the normal feed diode. In other words, leave the alternate feed switch open and short around the normal feed diode. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
From: rez <rrr.cavu(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
BASIC, COBOL, assembler, C++++, reminds me of a heated debate many years ag o regarding the merits of octal vs hex. -Of course all these things are t ools, and you use the tool that is most appropriate for the job at hand. -But if your only tool is hammer then everything looks like a nail. Another famous debate was on the use of the GOTO statement. -Everybody kn ows that the GOTO is very bad. -I am proud to say that I once assisted in the development of a system that completely eliminated the GOTO. -It was based on the COMEFROM -statement and also the FISH stack. -COMEFROM -has fallen out of favor recently, but the FISH stack is still widely use d: first in, still here. -The system was implemented as a SNOBOL preproce ssor for a structured JOVIAL compiler. -Sadly it never caught on. My native language is FORTRAN, which is very useful because you can write F ORTRAN in any language. -Nostalgia aint what it used to be. Jim PS The most useful assembler statement is XPI, execute programmer immediate . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
Interesting. -The octal vs. hex debate didn't last long, did it? -The r eason these two were invented was to get away from too many 1s and 0s, i.e. binary. -There are only 10 types of people in this world - those who und erstand binary and those who don't.=0A=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A=0A_______ _________________________=0A From: rez <rrr.cavu(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: aeroelect ric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:32 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft =0A =0A=0ABASIC, COBOL, assembler, C++++, reminds me of a heated debate man y years ago regarding the merits of octal vs hex. -Of course all these th ings are tools, and you use the tool that is most appropriate for the job a t hand. -But if your only tool is hammer then everything looks like a nai l.=0A=0AAnother famous debate was on the use of the GOTO statement. -Ever ybody knows that the GOTO is very bad. -I am proud to say that I once ass isted in the development of a system that completely eliminated the GOTO. -It was based on the COMEFROM -statement and also the FISH stack. -CO MEFROM -has fallen out of favor recently, but the FISH stack is still wid ely used: first in, still here. -The system was implemented as a SNOBOL p reprocessor for a structured JOVIAL compiler. -Sadly it never caught on. =0A=0AMy native language is FORTRAN, which is very useful because you can w rite FORTRAN in any language. -Nostalgia aint what it used to be.=0A=0AJi m=0A=0APS The most useful assembler statement is XPI, execute programmer im ======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
I don't know what you use for board layout, but if you use something like Eagle from http://www.cadsoftusa.com/ the layout connections will always agree with the schematic since they are linked. They have a freeware version that is complete and only limited by the layers (2 allowed) and the board size (100 x 80 mm) - neither of which is a limit to most of us. If you pay $69 you can use the same program to make boards that you can sell. There are other levels that allows progressively more (up to 16 layers and 4m x 4m size). I use it at home for home projects and we have one of the professional multi-user copies at my business. Highly recommended! Dick Tasker Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > The ECB layout is done. I'll put it down for a few > hours and then 'proof' it against the schematic. > > I'll publish the ECB layout and schematic as soon > as I've confirmed their agreement. > > > Bob . . . > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM
aircraft At 10:03 PM 4/17/2012, you wrote: > > >I don't know what you use for board layout, but if you use something >like Eagle from http://www.cadsoftusa.com/ the layout connections >will always agree with the schematic since they are linked. I use ExpressPCB which does have a schematic capture feature. Never did like the looks of their schematics. I grew up with ARRL publications. the look, feel and smell of their publications symbols became part of my DNA. Also cut my teeth on ECB layouts with little reels of black, red and blue tape and donuts. All the time I was putting parts on the board, I was working out the mechanics of heat sinking, current density, vibration resistance, ergonomics of the wiring, etc. Auto-routers don't mesh well with that train of thought. So I still enjoy doing the layout "by mouse" with design goals aforethought. Going thought the schematic one trace and component at a time is when I cull the schematic for bugs. At HBC, we had guys to do layouts for us but they didn't know much, if anything, about the mechanics of the end-product. But it did made sense for big, complex boards. I'm more comfortable somewhere between tape-n-dots and full up schematic capture with autorouting. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions
ok will try these things after work tomorrow. Thanks, Dan=0A=0A=0A=0A>_____ ___________________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.b ob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Tuesd ay, April 17, 2012 7:29 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking f Nuckolls, III" =0A>=0A>At 09:24 PM 4/16/2012 , you wrote:=0A>=0A>We need to do some experiments to see where the noise =0A>is getting into the system.=0A>=0A>When you CAN hear the noise, is it a ffected by the=0A>volume control on the radio?=0A>=0A>Does your transmitter have a side-tone feature,=0A>in other words, can you hear yourself in the =0A>headphones when you talk on the transmitter?=0A>=0A>Does the noise go a way when you transmit?=0A>=0A>If I recall correctly, the noise does go away =0A>when you close the alternate feed switch to=0A>the e-bus.=0A>=0A>Just f or grins, lets try bypassing the normal=0A>feed diode. In other words, leav e the alternate=0A>feed switch open and short around the normal=0A>feed dio ==================0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2012
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: David <ainut(at)knology.net>
Would that XPI be most effective when in indexed, indexed direct, or indexed indirect mode? My favorite instruction was NOP... Octal didn't have a chance. PDP-8's didn't live long and besides, octal could only represent itself half as well as hex. 2, 3, 4, (drum rap) Nibbles, now there was some compact power. Today, one gets arrested for twiddling their bits in public... Does that register? Ah, the highs and lows of assembly... For one thing, we never knew whether we were on the leading edge or the trailing edge... Only Nyqist and our hairdressers know for sure. David :) On Tue 04/17/12 10:02 PM , Henador Titzoff henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com sent: > Interesting. The octal vs. hex debate didn't last long, did it? The > reason these two were invented was to get away from too many 1s and > 0s, i.e. binary. There are only 10 types of people in this world - > those who understand binary and those who don't. > Henador Titzoff > ------------------------- > FROM: rez > TO: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > SENT: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:32 PM > SUBJECT: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for > OBAM aircraft > BASIC, COBOL, assembler, C++++, reminds me of a heated debate many > years ago regarding the merits of octal vs hex. Of course all these > things are tools, and you use the tool that is most appropriate for > the job at hand. But if your only tool is hammer then everything > looks like a nail. > Another famous debate was on the use of the GOTO statement. > Everybody knows that the GOTO is very bad. I am proud to say that I > once assisted in the development of a system that completely > eliminated the GOTO. It was based on the COMEFROM statement and > also the FISH stack. COMEFROM has fallen out of favor recently, but > the FISH stack is still widely used: first in, still here. The system > was implemented as a SNOBOL preprocessor for a structured JOVIAL > compiler. Sadly it never caught on. > My native language is FORTRAN, which is very useful because you can > write FORTRAN in any language. Nostalgia aint what it used to be. > Jim > PS The most useful assembler statement is XPI, execute programmer > immediate. > -=================================== > > Links: > ------ > [1] > http://webmail2.knology.net/HTTP://WWW.MATRONICS.COM/NAVIGATOR?AEROELECTRIC > -LIST[2] http://webmail2.knology.net/HTTP://FORUMS.MATRONICS.COM > [3] http://webmail2.knology.net/HTTP://WWW.MATRONICS.COM/CONTRIBUTION > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: Using all the wires
Date: Apr 18, 2012
Hi Guys (Bob) We are going with the Ztron Labs 'LED Nav/Strobe' lights, the wireing call out is 2 wire 18AWG sheathed wire for the power feed and return, plus a seperate 22AWG wire for the strobe sync, I have plenty of 3 wire 18AWG, can I use the spare wire to feed something else eg: the landing lights Best regards John (RV9a-wings) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Apr 18, 2012
> I don't know what you use for board layout, but if you use something like Eagle from http://www.cadsoftusa.com/ the layout connections will always agree with the schematic since they are linked. I love Eagle and have used it extensively. Express PCB is better for my purposes now (my average PCB is under one-square inch). Furthermore Express PCB's learning curve is almost ZERO. You can be set up and using it in minutes. Please note: Express PCB's schematic program is also linked to the PCB. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371144#371144 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2012
From: Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
All, Regarding the discussions of what "real programmers" use etc. it was once explained to me that there are only two kinds of programming languages and those are ones that "everyone" bitches about and argues against and those that "nobody" uses. Steve Stearns Boulder/Longmont, Colorado CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less) Restoring (since 1/07) and flying again (8/11!): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs) Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Using all the wires
At 05:42 AM 4/18/2012, you wrote: > > >Hi Guys (Bob) > >We are going with the Ztron Labs 'LED Nav/Strobe' lights, the >wireing call out is 2 wire 18AWG sheathed wire for the power feed >and return, plus a seperate 22AWG wire for the strobe sync, I have >plenty of 3 wire 18AWG, can I use the spare wire to feed something >else eg: the landing lights probably . . . but why not use the third wire for sync. The fact that it's larger than the recommended wire will not affect performance . . . and this keeps the strobe wiring nice and tidy. Can you scan and share the recommended wiring diagram for your Ztron system? Or is the instllation manual available on the 'net? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: OS Wig-Wag Project
I'm ready to lift the lid on my contribution to date. The data package is available at: http://tinyurl.com/7885bd6 Anyone who enjoys . . . and is capable of sifting the drawings through the sieve of logical agreement between the data points is welcome to do so. Critical review welcomed. I've included a couple of LEDs on the board that will emulate the fixtures in the airplane. This will allow any software developers to hook a switch and 12v power supply to the board and exercise the fruits of their efforts on the bench. I'll take another pass at the 'sieve' tomorrow and maybe get some boards on order. I have all the parts. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: Using all the wires
Date: Apr 18, 2012
Bob says: "Or is the installation manual available on the 'net?" Indeed: http://www.ztronlabs.com/products.php http://www.ztronlabs.com/products/pswt/User_Manual-12.pdf I propose using a 2 pole switch, OFF - ON(nav only) - ON(nav+strobes) John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 4:35 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Using all the wires > > > At 05:42 AM 4/18/2012, you wrote: >> >> >>Hi Guys (Bob) >> >>We are going with the Ztron Labs 'LED Nav/Strobe' lights, the wireing call >>out is 2 wire 18AWG sheathed wire for the power feed and return, plus a >>seperate 22AWG wire for the strobe sync, I have plenty of 3 wire 18AWG, >>can I use the spare wire to feed something else eg: the landing lights > > probably . . . but why not use the third wire for > sync. The fact that it's larger than the recommended > wire will not affect performance . . . and this keeps > the strobe wiring nice and tidy. > > Can you scan and share the recommended wiring diagram > for your Ztron system? Or is the instllation manual > available on the 'net? > > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Red Dot SWR Meter
Date: Apr 18, 2012
Bob, Thanks much for procuring and testing the Red Dot SWR meter. I will put it to use testing my installed antennas mounted inside my wooden aircraft. No doubt, there will be questions how best to do these tests, and what are acceptable parameters. Have you published the results of your testing of this meter with your reference? Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2012
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
I will answer and comment to all the previous inquiries. S. Ramirez: Eagle has schematic capture that, in my opinion, is very good. I have not used one of the PADS suites in many years so I cannot really comment on how it compares. Eagle does have schematic capture that is linked to the board layout. It has an auto-router that seems to be pretty good if you want to use it. I don't use it myself. You can download a free copy and try it out for yourself. It is pretty easy to learn. Bob N.: I too started with the same stuff you mention. Doing layouts on a drafting board at 5:1 and flipping translucent sheets to make multilayer boards - the "good old days". I don't use the auto-router in Eagle myself, although it is there if one wants it. I would really recommend you download a copy of the Eagle freeware and check it out. It is really easy to use and definitely helps with the final checkouts to make sure you didn't miss anything and that you haven't done anything stupid. I do the boards I design just like you describe, except I enter the schematic first and then switch to the board where all the parts are waiting for me to place wherever I want them. Then auto-route if you want or manually rout if you prefer (I prefer). Don't know if it will work, but I have attached a copy of one of our schematics so you can see what it looks like. If you don't like what it looks it, you can make and add your own symbols for anything to the library and use them instead. Eric: Express PCB is also very good. The only disadvantage is that it is linked to the particular board supplier - which is fine as long as that is who you want to deal with. With Eagle you can use the Gerber files it generates with any board supplier. Dick Tasker Eric M. Jones wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > >> I don't know what you use for board layout, but if you use something like Eagle from http://www.cadsoftusa.com/ the layout connections will always agree with the schematic since they are linked. > > I love Eagle and have used it extensively. Express PCB is better for my purposes now (my average PCB is under one-square inch). Furthermore Express PCB's learning curve is almost ZERO. You can be set up and using it in minutes. Please note: Express PCB's schematic program is also linked to the PCB. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371144#371144 > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Apr 19, 2012
> Eric: Express PCB is also very good. The only disadvantage is that it is linked to the particular board supplier - which is fine as long as that is who you want to deal with. With Eagle you can use > the Gerber files it generates with any board supplier. Dick, ExpressPCB is full of surprises. They will send you the Gerber Files for a small fee after the first run, I believe. (Check with them for the most recent policy). Their mini-board service also expands to almost anything else you want, other sizes, two or four layers, other quantities, for competitive prices. They also don't quibble about the number of boards you put on one sheet, although they have a limit of 350 holes per sheet on their standard 3-PCB mini-board service (...and I bump up against the hole-limit all the time!). ps: Don't confuse the original "Express PCB" with the copycat "PCB Express". -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371262#371262 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 19, 2012
Bob, Looks good for what I would need for a wig-wag... Here are some possible typos I think I picked up... On page 2 the processor part number is listed wrong. On page 3 at the top right I think that it should read P-1, not P-11. On page 3 Pin 6 of the micro is being used as GP1 in this application. On page 3 Pin 7 of the micro is being used as GP0 in this application. and a couple of questions... 1. Pin 12 on the d-sub connector seems to be unused but also shown differently than the other pins on the page 1 drawings. Is this a convention of some sort? 2. Looking at the PIC12F683 data sheet there are some confusing instructions on using MCLR with Power on Reset but I think that Pin 4 could be left unconnected for this application or used for another purpose since there is no external reset circuit. What is your reading on this? 3. Not sure how much real estate is left on the board but with Pin 4 freed up and Pin 3 unused you might be able to add the Under Voltage module functions into this module. Connect one pin as an A/D to read the bus voltage and use the other pin to drive the warning LED using a spare d-sub pin. Maybe also figure out how to handle the relay control for the aux battery. Maybe this is something for the next spin of the board... As it is, it meets my needs for a wig-wag module but I can see a software option that might be useful for users with other configurations of lights. In my case I have two landing lights on the wing and really only need to have them both off, both on, or the wig-wag. If other users have a Taxi light and a Landing light they may want to be able to have an alternate control function that allows: All Off, Taxi On, All On, & Wig-Wag (or some variation of four different states). Changing the function of the switch as shown to handle Off, Taxi, All On and then adding a second switch to ground both inputs for Wig-Wag would allow this to be done with only a software change needed to implement in the module. An option for those who would want it... It may be little early to be looking at Version 2 of the module but I will throw out a couple of items that might be useful to consider that require more than a minor spin on the board. 1. Allow for drop in of a PICAxe 8 pin module. This would require realigning Pin 2 and Pin 7 to handle the Serial In and Out for the PICAxe configuration and moving the current functions to other pins. Two resistors are the only added components for the PICAxe serial I/O circuit. Pin 7 can be reconfigured as a regular I/O pin in the application or left to handle Serial Out (maybe to a remote display?). With Pin 2 and Pin 7 brought out to the d-sub you would have the capability to connect to the PICAxe tools and do serial communication with the chip in the application via the d-sub. 2. In-Circuit Programming of the PIC is something that might be useful when using the standard PIC chip. Not sure about the need for it... 3. As I noted above, an easy add-on for the current module would appear to be the functions handled by the Under Voltage module (warning light and aux battery control). I expect that others have already come up with more ideas for using the module. With digital I/O, analog inputs, and a serial interface there a lots of possible functions for the module even with only an 8 pin micro. Lots of options, which is good... I will be continuing work on a software version to handle the basic wig-wag function in the next few days. Should have an initial version available within a week or so. Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371274#371274 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
>I'll take another pass at the 'sieve' tomorrow >and maybe get some boards on order. I have all >the parts. Some background on the decisions that went into satisfaction of design goals: I started with the following ideas for crafting the configuration I published: 1. Use the already developed package based on Polycase enclosure and D15 connector. I have cases and lids already cut to accept the connector. Of course, this sets the boundaries on the ECB. 2. Use simple on-off-on toggle switch to achieve OFF-WW-ON control functionality. Easily handled with software logic. 3. Minimum parts count. 4. Minimum variety of parts. 5. Maximize heat-sink copper for the FETs 6. Add some functional indictors for as-development tools (a couple of LEDs) so that bench testing of software needs only a switch and power supply. ---------------- Parts selection was pretty easy. As one can see from the schematic, all resistors and capacitors are the same value. This makes it easier to order, stock, and install with minimized error. The only parts that required any "calculation for performance" was the voltage divider for the power supply (exact value not critical and they only needed to be equal). And the series resistor for the shunt regulator. The calculated optimum value could be achieved by paralleling 4 of the common bill of materials value. 4.99K / 4 gives us about 1200 ohms at better than 1 watt because the heat doesn't come out of a single device . . . but is spread over larger area. The other values go to transient immunity. Two standard practice bypass capacitors on supply rails, two capacitors and two transorbs protecting fragile silicon from stuff conducted in on the ship's wiring. This is a good example of what my cohorts at HBC called a "cotton ball" . . . very non-critical components (tells us that drifts in performance due to component tolerance/drift are insignificant). The thought processes that go toward component selection are pretty ho-hum. Not to take away from the ultimate functionality of the assembly. Once the silicon is safely wrapped in environmental cotton, the magic poured into the source code is relatively unrestricted. A similar philosophy was adopted for the 'do-lots' board from which this project evolved. Figure out a way to wrap an 8-pin PIC up in a deep sea diving suit and then teach it how to sing, dance and do dishes. I'll order boards today. As Eric mentioned, ExpressPCB doesn't fuss about what is on a miniboard (3 pieces returned in 3 days for $70). Each mini-board will give us two finished boards with a couple of avionics ground bus boards thrown in on the side . . . sorta like this: Emacs! So we'll end up with 6 boards for the development work at a cost of just over $11 each and turned around in 3 days. If I sell some avionics grounds with the 'residuals' then the out-of-pocket development costs go down. Folks interested in doing software for this project need to chime up. I'll provide an assembled board with a control switch attached. You'll need a 12v source (2 el-cheapo WalMart lantern batteries?) and a development system of your choice. I'll throw in a couple of PIC chips and install a socket on the board for ease of swapping the chip between programmer and the end product demonstration. It's my vision for this project to publish all the drawings, ECB source files, and software sources which anyone can use to carry this project (or perhaps another functionality on the same hardware) forward. Of course, most individuals accessing this data have no interest in evolving/building their own. But this could lay the ground work for others to cultivate their own ideas for other products in a garden we've already planted with expertise contributed from a family of participants. That's what Open Source is all about . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 19, 2012
In that case, maybe consider dropping a Open Source Hardware logo in the cop per... http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW http://oshwlogo.com/ > > It's my vision for this project to publish all > the drawings, ECB source files, and software > sources which anyone can use to carry this > project (or perhaps another functionality on > the same hardware) forward. Of course, most > individuals accessing this data have no interest > in evolving/building their own. But this could > lay the ground work for others to cultivate > their own ideas for other products in a garden > we've already planted with expertise contributed > from a family of participants. > > That's what Open Source is all about . . . > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
At 10:25 AM 4/19/2012, you wrote: >In that case, maybe consider dropping a Open Source Hardware logo in >the copper... > ><http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW>http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW > >http://oshwlogo.com/ Interesting! Hadn't seen that before. I'm not ExpressPCB has a feature that would allow us to craft that exact symbology onto the board . . . but certainly documents that accompany the package could included it. I'll see what I can do. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
At 09:28 AM 4/19/2012, you wrote: Good input. Give me a day or so to get the disagreements sifted and consider the broader options. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2012
Subject: Antenna mounting-doubler
From: Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com>
Hi Bob, I'm aware that a doubler plate/skin connection for mounting a nav or com antenna requires a nice shiny surface. But, will alodining the surfaces make any difference with antenna performance? Thx, Rick Vans #40956 Southampton, Ont ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: Secrets Techniques
Date: Apr 19, 2012
Sixty years I've been doing this! Built all my own ham radio gear as a teenager in the 50's, got a EE degree from a prestigious university, spent my adult life as a development engineer designing medical and laboratory instruments. You'd think I could strip a multiconductor shield Tefzel insulated cable in my sleep, but it's a bit@h! I make a mess of the shield when I try to remove the Tefzel. What is the secret trick to it! thanks all, -john- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna mounting-doubler
At 10:13 PM 4/19/2012, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >I'm aware that a doubler plate/skin connection for mounting a nav or >com antenna requires a nice shiny surface. But, will alodining the >surfaces make any difference with antenna performance? I presume you're talking about a commercial comm wisker that mounts with 3 or 4 screws and has a BNC connector centrally located in the hole pattern. See: http://tinyurl.com/6rwodso Practical electrical connection is made with the airframe only at the areas where there are large clamp up forces around the screws. These forces go to essentially zero at more than 1/4" away from the mounting hardware. The goal is to things clean if not bright around each of the mounting screws on all mating surfaces. The end product will be the best we know how to do . . . short of welding the antenna base to the skin. The goal is 'gas tightness' within the cleaned areas . . . so screw the nuts down good and tight. Metal lock-nuts would be good. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2012
From: Mike Nellis <mike(at)bmnellis.com>
Subject: Re: Secrets Techniques
You've been doing it so long, you've probably wore the tool out or at the very least, dulled it. Mike > Sixty years I've been doing this! Built all my own ham radio gear as a > teenager in the 50's, got a EE degree from a prestigious university, > spent my adult life as a development engineer designing medical and > laboratory instruments. You'd think I could strip a multiconductor > shield Tefzel insulated cable in my sleep, but it's a bit@h > ! I make a mess of the shield when I try to remove the > Tefzel. What is the secret trick to it! > thanks all, -john- > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: Secrets Techniques
Date: Apr 19, 2012
Tool! A special tool!? I love tools! What tool! -john- _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Nellis Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 9:36 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Secrets Techniques You've been doing it so long, you've probably wore the tool out or at the very least, dulled it. Mike Sixty years I've been doing this! Built all my own ham radio gear as a teenager in the 50's, got a EE degree from a prestigious university, spent my adult life as a development engineer designing medical and laboratory instruments. You'd think I could strip a multiconductor shield Tefzel insulated cable in my sleep, but it's a bit@h! I make a mess of the shield when I try to remove the Tefzel. What is the secret trick to it! thanks all, -john- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Secrets Techniques
At 11:12 PM 4/19/2012, you wrote: >Sixty years I've been doing this! Built all my own ham radio gear as >a teenager in the 50's, got a EE degree from a prestigious >university, spent my adult life as a development engineer designing >medical and laboratory instruments. You'd think I could strip a >multiconductor shield Tefzel insulated cable in my sleep, but it's a >bit@h! I make a mess of the shield when I try to >remove the Tefzel. What is the secret trick to it! The secret is go ahead and 'trash' the shield. I have a bunch of 22AWG, 3-conductor shielded that a common Stripmaster more-or-less strips the outer jacket and probably 80% of the shield strands. Then I use a solder-sleeve to put a neat pigtail on the damaged shielding. There are normally no currents flowing in the shield. If your grounding pig-tail gets good electrical connection with only one of of the strands, you're good to go. More than likely you can get good connection with 10% or more of the shield stranding. The neat thing is that the pigtail under heat shrink covers the carnage. I'll see if I can dig some of the stuff up and do a comic-book series of pictures on the process tomorrow. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Secrets Techniques
At 11:12 PM 4/19/2012, you wrote: Sixty years I've been doing this! Built all my own ham radio gear as a teenager in the 50's, got a EE degree from a prestigious university, spent my adult life as a development engineer designing medical and laboratory instruments. You'd think I could strip a multiconductor shield Tefzel insulated cable in my sleep, but it's a bit@h! I make a mess of the shield when I try to remove the Tefzel. What is the secret trick to it!

April 02, 2012 - April 20, 2012

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