AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ld

May 20, 2012 - June 13, 2012



      
      suffice for a ground plane if it is needed?
      
      Thanks,
      
      Michael Wynn
      RV 8 Finishing
      San Ramon, CA 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
Date: May 20, 2012
Bill, 12Volts at the relay could/did exist - but if you did NOT have an adequate return path (ground) for CURRENT to flow then no current would flow through the relay, no power to close the relay would develop and nothing would happen. You must have a path for current flow. So once you took the relay back and hooked it up to a good ground - it worked. Voltage is similar to water pressure - you can have 12PSI of water pressure on one side of a water valve leading to a water turbine - but if you do not open the valve (provide a path for water flow) then the 12PSI does nothing for you, no work is produced and the turbine never spins(relay never closes). When I was just getting interested in electronics (around 10 years old), I would go to the local dump and haul out old discarded radios and cut out the components. I would take a resistor and measure the resistance with an ohm meter and sure enough the resistance measure was close(more or less) to the color code on the resistor - so ah, I thought another good one. Then I would put voltage (12 volts) to one end of the resistor and then measure the voltage at the other end and much to my puzzlement and dismay - no voltage was dropped, it still read 12 volts. So the resistor must have somehow gone bad - but, measured the resistance again and it was on the money. Later the light bulb came on - the impedance of the voltmeter was too high to draw any significant current through the resistor, therefore there was only a very small (unnoticable to me) voltage drop across the resistor. Of course once I grounded one end of the resistor then max current would flow through it and all 12 volts would be dropped across the resistor. Without current flow through a resistor (V=I*R) there is no voltage dropped across it and the voltage will measure the same on both ends of the resistor. In other words if I (current) = 0 then Voltage Drop V = 0 * R = 0 or no voltage drop. Ed -------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:50 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8 > > > Eric, > This sounds like the possible explanation for a problem that I solved but > never understood. Still don't... even if this is the explanation! :>) > > 20 years ago, I had a sprinkler zone that would not come on. I checked > voltage at the solenoid and found 12V, so I assumed that the solenoid was > bad. I replaced it...still didn't work! I then checked the original > solenoid at the control box. It worked! Hmmmm! > > I ran new wires out to the valve from the controller box hooked up the > original solenoid and it worked! Problem solved. > > I have never understood how I could have 12V at the solenoid and it would > not work. Is this an explanation and if so how?? > > Bill B > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. > Jones > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:22 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8 > > > > As others have mentioned, the problem is in how you use your tools...like > the voltmeter. > > Imagine that you have a voltmeter that is infinitely sensitive (infinite > impedance). Now it will measure the battery voltage even thru an open > switch. In fact, it will measure 500 volts between your belt buckle and > your > shoe laces. And the top of your hat will be 1000 volts higher than the > soles > of your New Balance sneakers. You can actually extract some tiny amount of > power this way. > > So meter impedance is not a lack of quality in a meter, it is a necessary > and useful characteristic of the measuring device. And in a solid state > circuit (like a diode), there will almost always be a voltage on the > output > that is similar to the input voltage even when the meter is off. And in > fact > the "leakage voltage" will not be able to light even the tiniest LED...so > ignore it. > > I once designed a Cmos circuit where somebody (okay, me...) forgot to add > the power trace to the IC. Years later, an inquisitive technician, tracing > an unrelated fault discovered it, but all the shipped product had worked > just fine. > > So just don't make voltage measurements like this. > > See attached for a better way. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373387#373387 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/diode_test_116.pdf > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 20, 2012
Bill B.: Hard to know. But the lesson is that a voltmeter should never, and I mean NEVER be used as a makeshift continuity tester. A 12V indicator lamp is a much better tool. I used to know an 85-year old electrician nicknamed Sparky (really) who told me that in the early days they never used meters, he would just put his two fingers across the line (even 440V!). But there was a technique to it--one finger on the hot and one on the ground or neutral AT THE SAME INSTANT--And don't touch anything else. Same when removing them. It is easy to do this with 12V, but you have to lick your fingers and press hard. Every kid knows you can test a 9V battery on your tongue and a 1.5V cell can be tested UNDER the tongue. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373400#373400 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste
>There are several posts from people about this, and I see two more >that I haven't read. Let me see what they say and hopefully one of >them will stand out on a recommended good grease at a good price and >readily available. I would suggest the use of ductile sealants on joints that are exposed to most severe combinations of contaminants+water+ heat. Battery terminals come to mind. Joints that are made up once and expected to run the lifetime of the airplane (crimped terminals, fat-wire connections to accessories, busses, etc) and not splashed or gassed are generally fine without added insurance. While I was working at Cessna, I recall an optional 'corrosion resistant' treatment that was offered to individuals who lived on the coasts, and owners of planes on floats or agricultural spray planes. Over the years, there have been numerous spray- on treatments for the interior surfaces of aluminum airplanes with a notion of slowing corrosion. But all of these offsets were directed at structural corrosion issues as opposed to the make up of a joint between two conductors in the electrical system. Intrusion of conductive moisture is antagonistic to the copper/aluminum joint right at the edges of the joint. Usually right under the terminal flag, out of sight but also not gas- tight to the environment. Emacs! For all the concerns about fending off oxidation of metals on the aircraft structure, I don't recall ever reading about a generalized treatment of electrical components beyond the use of tin plated terminals to take a ground wire down to an aluminum skin. The value of this process is illustrated here: Emacs! Adding the layer of tin to the copper by plating insures gas-tightness between the copper and tin but the mechanical limitations of getting gas tightness between tin and aluminum are unchanged . . . the advantage of this process is that the Seebeck voltage developed between aluminum-tin thermocouple is lower than aluminum-copper . . . hence the rate of corrosion in the presence of dirty moisture is reduced. It's still not zero but it is smaller. Virtually any, viscous, non-conductive material in this space is an effective deterrent to the ingress of dirty moisture. For the most part, getting excited to action for the purpose of preserving one's electrical joints has a poor return on investment. I've never seen a callout on a production airplane drawing for any form of guckem to be applied between electrical parts before mating. Cost of ownership risks are much greater for other members of the family of attackers. I've seen devastating effects on the tailcone of a nice ol' C-140 where colonies of mice took up residence. That was the only airplane I ever thought about buying and refurbishing . . . until I looked behind the seats. Even the bulkhead flanges had big holes in them. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ground plane for GPS antenna?
At 09:55 AM 5/20/2012, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I am building an RV 8. Per the suggestion of several builders, I >make a bracket to hold my GPS antenna under the cowl, just forward >of the firewall. The bracket is bolted to the firewall. I painted >it to match my engine and plenum. I got to wondering if the paint >was an error. I know that the nav and com antennae don't work >without connection to the ground plane of the aircraft. Is that >also true for a GPS antenna? The antenna is the one that came with >a Garmin 430W. > >It would be easy enough to buff off the paint where the antenna >rests. The bracket is pretty will grounded to the airframe by its >bolts. Would that suffice for a ground plane if it is needed? > >Thanks, > >Michael Wynn >RV 8 Finishing >San Ramon, CA > GPS antennas do not generally rely on any sort of ground plane provided by surrounding support structure. The little flat GPS antennas are generally of the "patch" variety. See: http://home.iae.nl/users/plundahl/antenne/patchant.htm So paint UNDER the antenna is of no significance. Paint over the antenna MIGHT be significant. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
Date: May 20, 2012
So you guys now know why, as an electrician, I am a middling carpenter! Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 11:38 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8 Bill B.: Hard to know. But the lesson is that a voltmeter should never, and I mean NEVER be used as a makeshift continuity tester. A 12V indicator lamp is a much better tool. I used to know an 85-year old electrician nicknamed Sparky (really) who told me that in the early days they never used meters, he would just put his two fingers across the line (even 440V!). But there was a technique to it--one finger on the hot and one on the ground or neutral AT THE SAME INSTANT--And don't touch anything else. Same when removing them. It is easy to do this with 12V, but you have to lick your fingers and press hard. Every kid knows you can test a 9V battery on your tongue and a 1.5V cell can be tested UNDER the tongue. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373400#373400 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Klixon CB - split lock washer and how best to secure
#6 ring
From: "plevyakh" <hplevyak(at)mac.com>
Date: May 20, 2012
Guys, Searching the archives I couldn't locate tips on how best to secure the threaded fasteners for the switches and Klixon CBs that don't use FASTON tabs. For example the two Klixon 7277-1-5 CB (5amp) used for the alternator fields use a #6 screw with a split ring lock washer. What's the best way to secure the wire ring connector to ensure it doesn't vibrate loose? Thread sealant? Thanks, Howard (GlaStar in Cincinnati, OH) -------- Howard Plevyak GlaStar / North Bend, Ohio hplevyak(at)mac.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373408#373408 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2012
From: "jason(at)jasonbeaver.com" <jason(at)jasonbeaver.com>
Subject: Re: Ground plane for GPS antenna?
The install manual for my Garmin GTN-635 specified that the antenna be grounded to the airframe and have a minimum of 7.5 radius around the perimeter. Here's an excerpt from the manual: 2.5.5 Ground Plane Ensure that the GPS/NAV/COM antennas are electrically bonded to the aircraft. Follow the aircraft manufacturers=98 instructions for the N AV and COM antenna installations, or obtain other FAA approval. The GPS/WAAS antenna requires a minimum ground plane radius of 7.5 inches around the perimeter of the antenna. Refer to Figure 2-10. For metal aircraft, the surrounding metal skin on which the antenna is mounted supplies the ground plane. For non-metal aircraft, the ground plane can be composed of heavy duty aluminum foil tape, such as 3M P/N 438 or other adhesive backed dead soft aluminum foil minimum 0.012 inches thick. It should be noted that if the antenna is struck by lightning, the foil by itself may not be sufficient to dissipate lightning currents. Additional protection may be needed depending on the construction of the structure to which the antenna is mounted. jason On May 20, 2012 at 11:53 AM "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > At 09:55 AM 5/20/2012, you wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >I am building an RV 8. Per the suggestion of several builders, I > >make a bracket to hold my GPS antenna under the cowl, just forward > >of the firewall. The bracket is bolted to the firewall. I painted > >it to match my engine and plenum. I got to wondering if the paint > >was an error. I know that the nav and com antennae don't work > >without connection to the ground plane of the aircraft. Is that > >also true for a GPS antenna? The antenna is the one that came with > >a Garmin 430W. > > > >It would be easy enough to buff off the paint where the antenna > >rests. The bracket is pretty will grounded to the airframe by its > >bolts. Would that suffice for a ground plane if it is needed? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Michael Wynn > >RV 8 Finishing > >San Ramon, CA > > > > GPS antennas do not generally rely on any sort of > ground plane provided by surrounding support structure. > The little flat GPS antennas are generally of the > "patch" variety. See: > > http://home.iae.nl/users/plundahl/antenne/patchant.htm > > So paint UNDER the antenna is of no significance. Paint > over the antenna MIGHT be significant. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Klixon CB - split lock washer and how best to secure
#6 ring
From: bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Date: May 20, 2012
Good Afternoon Howard, All I have ever done is use the screw and washer provided for that purpose. It does help a lot to make a harness of the wires so that they are not pro viding a strain on the joint which may tend to loosen the connection. Screw s with washers have done the job quite well in production aircraft for at l east sevent-five years or more. Why try to reinvent the wheel? Happy Skies, Old Bob -----Original Message----- From: plevyakh <hplevyak(at)mac.com> Sent: Sun, May 20, 2012 12:05 pm Subject: AeroElectric-List: Klixon CB - split lock washer and how best to s ecure #6 ring Guys, Searching the archives I couldn't locate tips on how best to secure the thr eaded fasteners for the switches and Klixon CBs that don't use FASTON tabs. For example the two Klixon 7277-1-5 CB (5amp) used for the alternator field s use a #6 screw with a split ring lock washer. What's the best way to secure the wire ring connector to ensure it doesn't vibrate loose? Thread sealant? Thanks, Howard (GlaStar in Cincinnati, OH) -------- Howard Plevyak GlaStar / North Bend, Ohio hplevyak(at)mac.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground plane for GPS antenna?
From: bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Date: May 20, 2012
Good Afternoon Jason, I think if you read between the lines you will see that the concern is for static build up or lightning strike considerations. The antenna will work just fine as long as it is NOT in a major shadow of a large component of the metallic airframe with no connection to the airfram e at all. The bonding and grounding of the antenna, unlike a normal comm an tenna, has nothing to do with it's efficiency as an antenna. Make any sense at all? Happy Skies, Old Bob Downers Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: jason <jason(at)jasonbeaver.com> Sent: Sun, May 20, 2012 12:09 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground plane for GPS antenna? The install manual for my Garmin GTN-635 specified that the antenna be grounded to the airframe and have a minimum of 7.5 radius around the per imeter. Here's an excerpt from the manual: 2.5.5 Ground Plane Ensure that the GPS/NAV/COM antennas are electrically bonded to the air craft. Follow the aircraft manufacturers=98 instructions for the NAV and COM antenna installations, or obtain other FAA approval. The GPS/WAAS antenna requires a minimum ground plane radius of 7.5 inch es around the perimeter of the antenna. Refer to Figure 2-10. For metal air craft, the surrounding metal skin on which the antenna is mounted supplies the ground plane. For non-metal aircraft, the ground plane can be composed of heavy duty aluminum foil tape, such as 3M P/N 438 or other adhesive back ed dead soft aluminum foil minimum 0.012 inches thick. It should be noted t hat if the antenna is struck by lightning, the foil by itself may not be su fficient to dissipate lightning currents. Additional protection may be need ed depending on the construction of the structure to which the antenna is m ounted. jason On May 20, 2012 at 11:53 AM "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aero electric.com> wrote: > At 09:55 AM 5/20/2012, you wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >I am building an RV 8. Per the suggestion of several builders, I > >make a bracket to hold my GPS antenna under the cowl, just forward > >of the firewall. The bracket is bolted to the firewall. I painted > >it to match my engine and plenum. I got to wondering if the paint > >was an error. I know that the nav and com antennae don't work > >without connection to the ground plane of the aircraft. Is that > >also true for a GPS antenna? The antenna is the one that came with > >a Garmin 430W. > > > >It would be easy enough to buff off the paint where the antenna > >rests. The bracket is pretty will grounded to the airframe by its > >bolts. Would that suffice for a ground plane if it is needed? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Michael Wynn > >RV 8 Finishing > >San Ramon, CA > > > > GPS antennas do not generally rely on any sort of > ground plane provided by surrounding support structure. > The little flat GPS antennas are generally of the > "patch" variety. See: > > http://home.iae.nl/users/plundahl/antenne/patchant.htm > > So paint UNDER the antenna is of no significance. Paint > over the antenna MIGHT be significant. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLWynn(at)aol.com
Date: May 20, 2012
Subject: Re: Ground plane for GPS antenna?
Thanks, guys. Now I can leave my nice paint job intact. Regards, Michael Wynn RV 8 Finishing San Ramon, CA In a message dated 5/20/2012 10:22:52 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bobsv35b(at)aol.com writes: Good Afternoon Jason, I think if you read between the lines you will see that the concern is for static build up or lightning strike considerations. The antenna will work just fine as long as it is NOT in a major shadow of a large component of the metallic airframe with no connection to the airframe at all. The bonding and grounding of the antenna, unlike a normal comm antenna, has nothing to do with it's efficiency as an antenna. Make any sense at all? Happy Skies, Old Bob Downers Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: jason <jason(at)jasonbeaver.com> Sent: Sun, May 20, 2012 12:09 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground plane for GPS antenna? The install manual for my Garmin GTN-635 specified that the antenna be grounded to the airframe and have a minimum of 7.5 radius around the perimeter. Here's an excerpt from the manual: 2.5.5 Ground Plane Ensure that the GPS/NAV/COM antennas are electrically bonded to the aircraft. Follow the aircraft manufacturers=98 instructions for the NAV and COM antenna installations, or obtain other FAA approval. The GPS/WAAS antenna requires a minimum ground plane radius of 7.5 inches around the perimeter of the antenna. Refer to Figure 2-10. For metal aircraft, the surrounding metal skin on which the antenna is mounted suppl ies the ground plane. For non-metal aircraft, the ground plane can be composed of heavy duty aluminum foil tape, such as 3M P/N 438 or other adhesive backed dead soft aluminum foil minimum 0.012 inches thick. It should be noted tha t if the antenna is struck by lightning, the foil by itself may not be sufficient to dissipate lightning currents. Additional protection may be n eeded depending on the construction of the structure to which the antenna is mounted. jason On May 20, 2012 at 11:53 AM "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <_nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com_ (mailto:nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com) > wrote: > At 09:55 AM 5/20/2012, you wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >I am building an RV 8. Per the suggestion of several builders, I > >make a bracket to hold my GPS antenna under the cowl, just forward > >of the firewall. The bracket is bolted to the firewall. I painted > >it to match my engine and plenum. I got to wondering if the paint > >was an error. I know that the nav and com antennae don't work > >without connection to the ground plane of the aircraft. Is that > >also true for a GPS antenna? The antenna is the one that came with > >a Garmin 430W. > > > >It would be easy enough to buff off the paint where the antenna > >rests. The bracket is pretty will grounded to the airframe by its > >bolts. Would that suffice for a ground plane if it is needed? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Michael Wynn > >RV 8 Finishing > >San Ramon, CA > > > > GPS antennas do not generally rely on any sort of > ground plane provided by surrounding support structure. > The little flat GPS antennas are generally of the > "patch" variety. See: > > _http://home.iae.nl/users/plundahl/antenne/patchant.htm_ (http://home.iae.nl/users/plundahl/antenne/patchant.htm) > > So paint UNDER the antenna is of no significance. Paint > over the antenna MIGHT be significant. > > Bob . . . ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Lis t tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2012
From: "jason(at)jasonbeaver.com" <jason(at)jasonbeaver.com>
Subject: Re: Ground plane for GPS antenna?
Hi Bob, I don't think you can infer that their concern is lightning strike protection since they specify that a foil ground plane be installed on non-metal aircraft and then go on to state that the foil may not be sufficient to dissipate lightning currents. The inference is that the ground plane is improving its efficiency as an antenna. jason On May 20, 2012 at 1:21 PM bobsv35b(at)aol.com wrote: > > Good Afternoon Jason, > > I think if you read between the lines you will see that the concern is for static build up or lightning strike considerations. > > The antenna will work just fine as long as it is NOT in a major shadow of a large component of the metallic airframe with no connection to the airframe at all. The bonding and grounding of the antenna, unlike a normal comm antenna, has nothing to do with it's efficiency as an antenna. > > Make any sense at all? > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > Downers Grove, IL > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jason <jason(at)jasonbeaver.com> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Sun, May 20, 2012 12:09 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground plane for GPS antenna? > > > > The install manual for my Garmin GTN-635 specified that the antenna be grounded to the airframe and have a minimum of 7.5 radius around the perimeter. Here's an excerpt from the manual: > > 2.5.5 Ground Plane > > Ensure that the GPS/NAV/COM antennas are electrically bonded to the aircraft. Follow the aircraft manufacturers=98 instructions for the N AV and COM antenna installations, or obtain other FAA approval. > > The GPS/WAAS antenna requires a minimum ground plane radius of 7.5 inches around the perimeter of the antenna. Refer to Figure 2-10. For metal aircraft, the surrounding metal skin on which the antenna is mounted supplies the ground plane. For non-metal aircraft, the ground plane can be composed of heavy duty aluminum foil tape, such as 3M P/N 438 or other adhesive backed dead soft aluminum foil minimum 0.012 inches thick. It should be noted that if the antenna is struck by lightning, the foil by itself may not be sufficient to dissipate lightning currents. Additional protection may be needed depending on the construction of the structure to which the antenna is mounted. > > jason > > > > On May 20, 2012 at 11:53 AM "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > At 09:55 AM 5/20/2012, you wrote: > > >Hi all, > > > > > >I am building an RV 8. Per the suggestion of several builders, I > > >make a bracket to hold my GPS antenna under the cowl, just forward > > >of the firewall. The bracket is bolted to the firewall. I painted > > >it to match my engine and plenum. I got to wondering if the paint > > >was an error. I know that the nav and com antennae don't work > > >without connection to the ground plane of the aircraft. Is that > > >also true for a GPS antenna? The antenna is the one that came with > > >a Garmin 430W. > > > > > >It would be easy enough to buff off the paint where the antenna > > >rests. The bracket is pretty will grounded to the airframe by its > > >bolts. Would that suffice for a ground plane if it is needed? > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Michael Wynn > > >RV 8 Finishing > > >San Ramon, CA > > > > > > > GPS antennas do not generally rely on any sort of > > ground plane provided by surrounding support structure. > > The little flat GPS antennas are generally of the > > "patch" variety. See: > > > > http://home.iae.nl/users/plundahl/antenne/patchant.htm > > > > So paint UNDER the antenna is of no significance. Paint > > over the antenna MIGHT be significant. > > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground plane for GPS antenna?
From: bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Date: May 20, 2012
Good Afternoon Jason, Since I have no idea what they were trying to handle, I cannot say that you r thoughts are incorrect. However, my feeling is that the foil is an effort to better distribute static build up on the airframe. As a WAG, I would think that having the antenna not well grounded to the ai rframe could mean that more corrosion could develop where the antenna meets the airframe. Still no effect on the signal until such time as the integri ty of the component is compromised. Once again, that is an area in which I have NO technical knowledge. My experience with a whole lot of different GPS antennas has been that no g round plane has any effect, positive or negative, on the performance of a G PS antenna. My knowledge of radio frequencies is nil. Just a lot of actual practical observation of results and a very small appreciation of the very short wave lengths involved. I should also add that for lightning to actually strike an airplane is an a lmost implausible event. What we normally call a lightning strike is actual ly a massive discharge of static electricity. A whole lot of static electri city could interfere with any radio wave reception. Happy Skies, Old Just an Observer, not an Engineer, Bob -----Original Message----- From: jason <jason(at)jasonbeaver.com> Sent: Sun, May 20, 2012 12:46 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground plane for GPS antenna? Hi Bob, I don't think you can infer that their concern is lightning strike p rotection since they specify that a foil ground plane be installed on non-m etal aircraft and then go on to state that the foil may not be sufficien t to dissipate lightning currents. The inference is that the ground plane is improving its efficiency as an antenna. jason On May 20, 2012 at 1:21 PM bobsv35b(at)aol.com wrote: > > Good Afternoon Jason, > > I think if you read between the lines you will see that the concern is for static build up or lightning strike considerations. > > The antenna will work just fine as long as it is NOT in a major shadow of a large component of the metallic airframe with no connection to the ai rframe at all. The bonding and grounding of the antenna, unlike a normal co mm antenna, has nothing to do with it's efficiency as an antenna. > > Make any sense at all? > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > Downers Grove, IL > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jason <jason(at)jasonbeaver.com> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Sun, May 20, 2012 12:09 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground plane for GPS antenna? > > > > The install manual for my Garmin GTN-635 specified that the ant enna be grounded to the airframe and have a minimum of 7.5 radius around th e perimeter. Here's an excerpt from the manual: > > 2.5.5 Ground Plane > > Ensure that the GPS/NAV/COM antennas are electrically bonded to th e aircraft. Follow the aircraft manufacturers=98 instructions for the NAV and COM antenna installations, or obtain other FAA approval. > > The GPS/WAAS antenna requires a minimum ground plane radius of 7.5 inches around the perimeter of the antenna. Refer to Figure 2-10. For meta l aircraft, the surrounding metal skin on which the antenna is mounted supp lies the ground plane. For non-metal aircraft, the ground plane can be comp osed of heavy duty aluminum foil tape, such as 3M P/N 438 or other adhesive backed dead soft aluminum foil minimum 0.012 inches thick. It should be no ted that if the antenna is struck by lightning, the foil by itself may not be sufficient to dissipate lightning currents. Additional protection may be needed depending on the construction of the structure to which the antenna is mounted. > > jason > > > > On May 20, 2012 at 11:53 AM "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" @aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > > At 09:55 AM 5/20/2012, you wrote: > > >Hi all, > > > > > >I am building an RV 8. Per the suggestion of several builders, I > > >make a bracket to hold my GPS antenna under the cowl, just forwa rd > > >of the firewall. The bracket is bolted to the firewall. I paint ed > > >it to match my engine and plenum. I got to wondering if the pai nt > > >was an error. I know that the nav and com antennae don't work > > >without connection to the ground plane of the aircraft. Is that > > >also true for a GPS antenna? The antenna is the one that came w ith > > >a Garmin 430W. > > > > > >It would be easy enough to buff off the paint where the antenna > > >rests. The bracket is pretty will grounded to the airframe by i ts > > >bolts. Would that suffice for a ground plane if it is needed? > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Michael Wynn > > >RV 8 Finishing > > >San Ramon, CA > > > > > > > GPS antennas do not generally rely on any sort of > > ground plane provided by surrounding support structure. > > The little flat GPS antennas are generally of the > > "patch" variety. See: > > > > http://home.iae.nl/users/plundahl/antenne/patchant.htm ; > > > > So paint UNDER the antenna is of no significance. Paint > > over the antenna MIGHT be significant. > > > > Bob . . . > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 21, 2012
I looked up Penetrox and there are several types; some for copper-to- copper, some for aluminum-to-copper or aluminum-to-aluminum. Some history here is required: Years ago we experimented with materials that contained suspended copper or silver for the purpose of heat sinking large Xenon lamps, while simultaneously conducting current (>20A). Here what happened: KA-BLAM-O!!! So we slinked back to using zinc oxide in silicone oil and no more problem. Why we thought suspended metal particles was a good idea is obvious...and wrong. What happened was that the suspended metal particles conducted current while simultaneously preventing the really big flat contacts from mating. And the current you can conduct with thousands of microscopic particles is quite limited. So: Using goop with suspended metal particles is probably a good idea at low current and modest voltage...like a connection to aluminum antennae, or Al-Cu pigtails in homes wired with aluminum. But it's probably a really bad idea with high currents at low voltages. Of course this depends on the size of the particles, the materials and hardness of the connectors and the pressure of the joint. But I wouldn't use the metal-particle goop without thinking about it carefully. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373466#373466 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: ELT current demand
Date: May 21, 2012
Cheers, I have not yet chosen the model of ELT for inclusion on my Europa, but must make way for its eventual installation. That means fuse and wire size choice. Rather than spend time researching hesitant advertisers, I'm asking for your advice on the current requirement of your or any ELT. I am aware of the transmit level but of course it's for such a short time that there must be an average level plus safe margin with which to work. Thanks in advance. Ferg C-FFGG mono 914 CS prop ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2012
From: John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com>
Subject: Re: ELT current demand
The ELT is self-contained and battery operated. The installation concerns are antenna location and periodic replacement of the batteries. john On 5/21/2012 7:53 AM, f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca wrote: > Cheers, > I have not yet chosen the model of ELT for inclusion on my Europa, > but must make way for its eventual installation. That means fuse and wire > size choice. > Rather than spend time researching hesitant advertisers, I'm asking > for your advice on the current requirement of your or any ELT. > I am aware of the transmit level but of course it's for such a short time > that there must be an average level plus safe margin with which to work. > Thanks in advance. > Ferg > C-FFGG mono 914 CS prop > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2012
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: Re: ELT current demand
Plus connection to the remote panel/buzzer On 21.05.2012 17:06, John Morgensen wrote: > > > The ELT is self-contained and battery operated. The installation > concerns are antenna location and periodic replacement of the batteries. > > john > > On 5/21/2012 7:53 AM, f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca wrote: >> Cheers, >> I have not yet chosen the model of ELT for inclusion on my Europa, >> but must make way for its eventual installation. That means fuse and wire >> size choice. >> Rather than spend time researching hesitant advertisers, I'm asking >> for your advice on the current requirement of your or any ELT. >> I am aware of the transmit level but of course it's for such a short time >> that there must be an average level plus safe margin with which to work. >> Thanks in advance. >> Ferg >> C-FFGG mono 914 CS prop >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste
Thanks, Eric, I appreciate your analytic approach to our problems, with tes ts to determine validity.=0A=0AToday I went to AutoZone and bought some Per matex Dielectric Grease in an 8 oz squeeze tube. -It should last me for s everal years.=0A=0AAlso, today I saw three local electric utility guys get out of a Chevrolet souped up truck and start looking at one of their boxes. -Two of them seemed to know what they were doing, while one was studying what I was doing, which was studying what they were doing. I walked across the street and asked them what they were doing, and he said that Engineeri ng was looking at a switch box to see how it functioned. -I asked him wha t it was switching, and he said 12,000V. -I asked him how it got stepped down to 240V and 120V, and he said he didn't know. -He asked one of the o ther guys, and they started looking around, finally spotting a box about tw o doors down. -He said that box was a step down transformer. -I asked h im if he knew what Penetrox or No-Ox-ID was, and he said no and asked me wh at they were. I told him they were pastes with zinc used to coat aluminum w ires to keep them from corroding, and he said he had heard of something lik e that. -I'm not sure where they dug up this fossil, but for an electric utility engineer, he didn't know squat about his company's technology. -I'm now guessing he was a mismanager.=0A=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A___________________________ _____=0A From: Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@ matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, May 21, 2012 9:00 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric -List: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste=0A =0A--> AeroElectric-List message po sted by: "Eric M. Jones" =0A=0AI looked up Penetrox an d there are several types; some for copper-to- copper, some for aluminum-to -copper or aluminum-to-aluminum. =0A=0ASome history here is required: Years ago we experimented with materials that contained suspended copper or silv er for the purpose of heat sinking large Xenon lamps, while simultaneously conducting current (>20A). Here what happened: KA-BLAM-O!!!=0A=0ASo we slin ked back to using zinc oxide in silicone oil and no more problem. Why we th ought suspended metal particles was a good idea is obvious...and wrong.=0A =0AWhat happened was that the suspended metal particles conducted current w hile simultaneously preventing the really big flat contacts from mating. An d the current you can conduct with thousands of microscopic particles is qu ite limited.=0A=0ASo: Using goop with suspended metal particles is probably a good idea at low current and modest voltage...like a connection to alumi num antennae, or Al-Cu pigtails in homes wired with aluminum. But it's prob ably a really bad idea with high currents at low voltages. Of course this d epends on the size of the particles, the materials and hardness of the conn ectors and the pressure of the joint. =0A=0ABut I wouldn't use the metal-pa rticle goop without thinking about it carefully.=0A=0A--------=0AEric M. Jo nes=0Awww.PerihelionDesign.com=0A113 Brentwood Drive=0ASouthbridge, MA 0155 0=0A(508) 764-2072=0Aemjones(at)charter.net=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic o nline here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373466#37346 = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 21, 2012
Subject: LEMO and "transformer coupled audio"
We've wired quite a few planes with powered LEMO jacks for Bose and Lightspeed headsets. It's usually a very straightforward case of piggybacking the audio onto the existing mic and phone jacks, and adding a power wire. The noise canceling circuit normally grounds through the audio lo and works very well. But we recently had a case where the aircraft had "transformer coupled audio". The Bose instructions warn you about this but don't really say what to do about it. What happens is, the noise canceling circuit doesn't see a ground so it doesn't turn on. In our case we just had to run the power ground (as opposed to audio ground) to a local airframe ground, and it worked just fine. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2012
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ELT current demand
I installed the ACK E-04 unit. I must admit to total ignorance as to how these things work these days but can share the following. Beyond location and orientation of the main unit, your planning needs to include the remote operation panel (very small but wired to main unit via 4 conductor telephone wire - supplied). Remember that the main unit will probably be behind the cockpit and the remote panel will be on your panel. Though it is mostly self contained, there is a power lead requiring 40mA (practically any wire fuse combination will work). And a GPS input which I think is optional but desirable. The easiest thing may be to pick a unit and download their manual. The ACK unit's manual is here: http://www.ackavionics.com/406%20Page.html Good luck, Bill Watson On 5/21/2012 10:53 AM, f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca wrote: > Cheers, > I have not yet chosen the model of ELT for inclusion on my Europa, > but must make way for its eventual installation. That means fuse and wire > size choice. > Rather than spend time researching hesitant advertisers, I'm asking > for your advice on the current requirement of your or any ELT. > I am aware of the transmit level but of course it's for such a short time > that there must be an average level plus safe margin with which to work. > Thanks in advance. > Ferg > C-FFGG mono 914 CS prop > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground plane for GPS antenna?
From: "Brantel" <brianchesteen(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 22, 2012
The 430W antenna is an active antenna that needs ~5v phantom power that it gets from the cable/430W unit. >From a Garmin Install Manual: * Antenna Doubler/Backing Plate The antenna installation must provide adequate support for the antenna considering a maximum drag load of 5 lbs. (at subsonic speed). When penetrating the skin with a large hole (i.e. for the coax connector) a doubler plate is required to re-instate the integrity of the aircraft skin. Never weaken the aircraft structure when choosing a mounting area. Make use of any available reinforcements where appropriate. * Antenna Grounding Plane Although no ground plane is required, the antennas typically perform better when a ground plane is used. The ground plane should be a conductive surface as large as practical, with a minimum diameter of 8 inches. To use an antenna in aircraft with fabric or composite skin, a ground plane is recommended. It is usually installed under the skin of the aircraft, below the antenna, and is made of either aluminum sheet or of wire mesh. * Antenna Grounding The antenna is grounded through the mounting hardware and the coax connection. The mounting hardware (washers and nuts) and doubler plate should make contact with an unpainted grounded surface ensuring proper antenna grounding. It is important to have good conductivity between the coaxial shield and the ground plane. The bottom of the antenna does not need to make contact with the ground plane (i.e. the surface may be painted). The antenna will capacitively couple to the ground plane beneath the paint or aircraft cover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373574#373574 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
I really have to ask. Are you making the claim that in all the years "Sparky" used his fingers, He NEVER had his fingertips touch at different times? Assuming 60Hz, a difference in contact times of the the fingertips of 1/30 of a second would allow more than enough time for any affect that was going to take place between 1st and 2nd finger contact. Never more than 1/30 of a second, ever. I'm skeptical. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 05/20/2012 10:38 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. > Jones" > > Bill B.: > > Hard to know. But the lesson is that a voltmeter should never, and I > mean NEVER be used as a makeshift continuity tester. A 12V indicator > lamp is a much better tool. > > I used to know an 85-year old electrician nicknamed Sparky (really) > who told me that in the early days they never used meters, he would > just put his two fingers across the line (even 440V!). But there was > a technique to it--one finger on the hot and one on the ground or > neutral AT THE SAME INSTANT--And don't touch anything else. Same when > removing them. It is easy to do this with 12V, but you have to lick > your fingers and press hard. Every kid knows you can test a 9V > battery on your tongue and a 1.5V cell can be tested UNDER the > tongue. > > -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373400#373400 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 22, 2012
> I'm skeptical. Raymond Julian Raymond. It is important to note that the electrical current flowed only up one finger and down the adjacent finger...never through the body, the heart or any bundle of nerves. So it couldn't kill him. Sparky also had tough hands that had done hard work for decades....I didn't doubt him at all. There are lots of seemingly-dangerous electrical tricks...if you know what you're doing. At 440V and 25k ohm dry skin, that's only 18 milliamps RMS. It shouldn't be a problem at all. How about we both try it and report back. YOU FIRST! -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373577#373577 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2012
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: ELT current demand
The E-04 directions are a bit skimpy on the aircraft power connection other than a 1 amp fuse and 40mA nominal. It would seem that it should be fed power whenever the master switch is on. I think the testing procedure implies that aircraft power is being used to process incoming GPS instructions which would imply that gps position info is already current and immediately ready to be transmitted if the ELT activates?? It would seem unlikely to expect to receive remote gps info after an impact. I've also seen vague references to a next gen 406 spec due in 2015 but no specifics. Would be nice if they could actually get the things to transmit a receivable signal even 50% of the time in an accident. Ken On 22/05/2012 8:48 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > > I installed the ACK E-04 unit. I must admit to total ignorance as to how > these things work these days but can share the following. > > Beyond location and orientation of the main unit, your planning needs to > include the remote operation panel (very small but wired to main unit > via 4 conductor telephone wire - supplied). Remember that the main unit > will probably be behind the cockpit and the remote panel will be on your > panel. > > Though it is mostly self contained, there is a power lead requiring 40mA > (practically any wire fuse combination will work). And a GPS input which > I think is optional but desirable. > > The easiest thing may be to pick a unit and download their manual. The > ACK unit's manual is here: > http://www.ackavionics.com/406%20Page.html > > Good luck, > Bill Watson > > On 5/21/2012 10:53 AM, f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca wrote: >> Cheers, >> I have not yet chosen the model of ELT for inclusion on my Europa, >> but must make way for its eventual installation. That means fuse and wire >> size choice. >> Rather than spend time researching hesitant advertisers, I'm asking >> for your advice on the current requirement of your or any ELT. >> I am aware of the transmit level but of course it's for such a short time >> that there must be an average level plus safe margin with which to work. >> Thanks in advance. >> Ferg >> C-FFGG mono 914 CS prop >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
I have no doubt he did it. I have done it to 1500v neon lighting transformers to see it they were hot. This does not address the "explanation" of how he did it. > I used to know an 85-year old electrician nicknamed Sparky (really) > who told me that in the early days they never used meters, he would > just put his two fingers across the line (even 440V!). But there was > a technique to it--one finger on the hot and one on the ground or > neutral AT THE SAME INSTANT--And don't touch anything else. Same when > removing them. Your claim that there is a technique to it, -----"AT THE SAME INSTANT"--------- is baseless, based on your explanation below. Which one is it???? Timing of the contact of the fingers has NOTHING to do with it and retelling stories with no basis in fact serves no purpose except to perpetuate falsehoods and whatever dangers are associated with believing them. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 05/22/2012 12:30 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. > Jones" > > >> I'm skeptical. Raymond Julian > > > Raymond. It is important to note that the electrical current flowed > only up one finger and down the adjacent finger...never through the > body, the heart or any bundle of nerves. So it couldn't kill him. > > Sparky also had tough hands that had done hard work for decades....I > didn't doubt him at all. There are lots of seemingly-dangerous > electrical tricks...if you know what you're doing. At 440V and 25k > ohm dry skin, that's only 18 milliamps RMS. It shouldn't be a problem > at all. > > How about we both try it and report back. YOU FIRST! > > -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373577#373577 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 22, 2012
> Timing of the contact of the fingers has NOTHING to do with it and > retelling stories with no basis in fact serves no purpose except to > perpetuate falsehoods and whatever dangers are associated with believing them. > > Raymond Julian Man, Chill. That's what he said and I had no reason to disbelieve him. But yes, the two finger thing might not be useful. Chill!! -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373583#373583 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2012
From: "jason(at)jasonbeaver.com" <jason(at)jasonbeaver.com>
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
When I first graduated from high school, I worked construction for one summer with an electrician who used the two finger trick to see if wires were hot. As long as no other portion of your body was grounded, you wouldn't get hurt. I spent most of the summer using this technique to see if wires were hot and learned to tell the difference between 110V and 220V feeds. At one point during the summer, I was helping him revive an old elevator from the late 1800s . At one point he touched two wires to see if they were hot and jerked his hand back in pain. He dug his multimeter out from the bottom of his toolbox and measure 600V DC on the wires! jason On May 22, 2012 at 1:30 PM "Eric M. Jones" wrote: > > > > I'm skeptical. Raymond Julian > > > Raymond. It is important to note that the electrical current flowed only up one finger and down the adjacent finger...never through the body, the heart or any bundle of nerves. So it couldn't kill him. > > Sparky also had tough hands that had done hard work for decades....I didn't doubt him at all. There are lots of seemingly-dangerous electrical tricks...if you know what you're doing. At 440V and 25k ohm dry skin, that's only 18 milliamps RMS. It shouldn't be a problem at all. > > How about we both try it and report back. YOU FIRST! > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373577#373577 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
Chill..... that's your best response. Nuts. I was hoping to sort out fact from fiction. Never mind. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 05/22/2012 01:30 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > >> Timing of the contact of the fingers has NOTHING to do with it and >> retelling stories with no basis in fact serves no purpose except to >> perpetuate falsehoods and whatever dangers are associated with believing them. >> >> Raymond Julian > > > Man, Chill. > > That's what he said and I had no reason to disbelieve him. But yes, the two finger thing might not be useful. > > Chill!! > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373583#373583 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
From: "MikeDunlop" <mdunlop001(at)aol.com>
Date: May 22, 2012
I can relate to some of these things, I started my working life as a mechanic and would like to have had a prize for every time I got zapped by touching the wrong end of a spark plug lead, 50k DC volts but no amps as such, one of the mechanics could stand there all day holding on to a live spark lead, I couldn't stand it... all it done was make me swear a lot though. On the other side of the coin, I had a friend who accidentally dropped a spanner across a 14k AC buss bar in a power station and received horrendous injuries including amputation of one arm. Moral of the story... know what you're dealing with and don't take chances. Miked (UK) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373601#373601 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
Seems to me that all this voltage touchly-feely stuff is actually machismo at work. -Why not just use appropriate meters or tools to determine if >0 V is present? -This has the advantage of quantifying the voltage to a rea sonable level rather than counting the number of nads hairs standing up.=0A -=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Mik eDunlop =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 6:16 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9001 Sc Dunlop" =0A=0AI can relate to some of these things, I s tarted my working life as a mechanic and would like to have had a prize for every time I got zapped by touching the wrong end of a spark plug lead, 50 k DC volts but no amps as such, one of the mechanics could stand there all day holding on to a live spark lead, I couldn't stand it... all it done was make me swear a lot though.- =0A=0AOn the other side of the coin,- I h ad a friend who accidentally dropped a spanner across a 14k AC buss bar in a power station and received horrendous injuries including amputation of on e arm.- - =0A=0AMoral of the story... know what you're dealing with and don't take chances.=0A=0AMiked (UK)=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online h ere:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373601#373601=0A=0A = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
Date: May 22, 2012
This thread should be renamed to "STUPID Electrician Tricks". _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henador Titzoff Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 17:33 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8 Seems to me that all this voltage touchly-feely stuff is actually machismo at work. Why not just use appropriate meters or tools to determine if >0V is present? This has the advantage of quantifying the voltage to a reasonable level rather than counting the number of nads hairs standing up. Henador Titzoff _____ From: MikeDunlop <mdunlop001(at)aol.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 6:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8 I can relate to some of these things, I started my working life as a mechanic and would like to have had a prize for every time I got zapped by touching the wrong end of a spark plug lead, 50k DC volts but no amps as such, one of the mechanics could stand there all day holding on to a live spark lead, I couldn't stand it... all it done was make me swear a lot though. On the other side of the coin, I had a friend who accidentally dropped a spanner across a 14k AC buss bar in a power station and received horrendous injuries including amputation of one arm. Moral of the story... know what you're dealing with and don't take chances. Miked (UK) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373601#373601http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator? - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -< ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Feels like voltage to me
Touching at the same time has nothing to do with the relative safety, or foolishness. of this approach. You could touch one finger, wait 30 seconds, and touch the second without any increase in risk, or for that matter, improvement in safety. In fact, going slower might just improve the safety slightly... but don't do this anyway! Paul On 5/22/2012 10:10 AM, rayj wrote: > > I really have to ask. Are you making the claim that in all the years > "Sparky" used his fingers, He NEVER had his fingertips touch at > different times? Assuming 60Hz, a difference in contact times of the > the fingertips of 1/30 of a second would allow more than enough time > for any affect that was going to take place between 1st and 2nd finger > contact. > > Never more than 1/30 of a second, ever. > > I'm skeptical. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste
Unfortunately, utility hiring policies don't always select for the brightest bulbs, excusing the pun... which sometimes can be quite a challenge for their sophisticated customers who labor mightily, at times, to convince them that, for instance, current *still* equals voltage times resistance, or similar advanced concepts. I once had to have days of meetings, and finally they had to fly their B+ student out from headquarters, to understand that it really was OK if we *gave* them a little power free from time to time to improve voltage regulation of their system in our neighborhood. Fortunately, he brightened (there's that pun again) and said, "Oh, I get it!" Revised contract language and relay settings were then only months of work process in coming. It's kind of like government, though... the cynic says you want your best minds being entrepreneurial... not running the bureaucracies like Hitler and Mussolini did... :-) Paul On 5/21/2012 4:06 PM, Henador Titzoff wrote: > Thanks, Eric, I appreciate your analytic approach to our problems, > with tests to determine validity. > > Today I went to AutoZone and bought some Permatex Dielectric Grease in > an 8 oz squeeze tube. It should last me for several years. > > Also, today I saw three local electric utility guys get out of a > Chevrolet souped up truck and start looking at one of their boxes. > Two of them seemed to know what they were doing, while one was > studying what I was doing, which was studying what they were doing. I > walked across the street and asked them what they were doing, and he > said that Engineering was looking at a switch box to see how it > functioned. I asked him what it was switching, and he said 12,000V. > I asked him how it got stepped down to 240V and 120V, and he said he > didn't know. He asked one of the other guys, and they started looking > around, finally spotting a box about two doors down. He said that box > was a step down transformer. I asked him if he knew what Penetrox or > No-Ox-ID was, and he said no and asked me what they were. I told him > they were pastes with zinc used to coat aluminum wires to keep them > from corroding, and he said he had heard of something like that. I'm > not sure where they dug up this fossil, but for an electric utility > engineer, he didn't know squat about his company's technology. I'm > now guessing he was a mismanager. > > Henador Titzoff > *From:* Eric M. Jones > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2012 9:00 AM > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste > > > > > I looked up Penetrox and there are several types; some for copper-to- > copper, some for aluminum-to-copper or aluminum-to-aluminum. > > Some history here is required: Years ago we experimented with > materials that contained suspended copper or silver for the purpose of > heat sinking large Xenon lamps, while simultaneously conducting > current (>20A). Here what happened: KA-BLAM-O!!! > > So we slinked back to using zinc oxide in silicone oil and no more > problem. Why we thought suspended metal particles was a good idea is > obvious...and wrong. > > What happened was that the suspended metal particles conducted current > while simultaneously preventing the really big flat contacts from > mating. And the current you can conduct with thousands of microscopic > particles is quite limited. > > So: Using goop with suspended metal particles is probably a good idea > at low current and modest voltage...like a connection to aluminum > antennae, or Al-Cu pigtails in homes wired with aluminum. But it's > probably a really bad idea with high currents at low voltages. Of > course this depends on the size of the particles, the materials and > hardness of the connectors and the pressure of the joint. > > But I wouldn't use the metal-particle goop without thinking about it > carefully. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com <http://www.PerihelionDesign.com> > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net <http://charter.net> > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373466#373466 > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator? - MATRONICS WEB > FORUMS -< ======================= > > > * > > > * -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 23, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste
Paul,=0A=0AI don't believe you're giving Hitler and Mussolini enough credit . -If they were around today, no doubt they would be successful, big comp any retired CEOs. Hitler's resume would have had the following "bullets:" =0A* Implemented Sic Stigma=0A* Ran Germania Corporation for 12 years until successfully sold to United States in hostile takeover for billions of dollars=0A* Increased assets by annexing Polandia Corporation in a ho stile takeover=0A* Milked Polandia Corporation out of all resources, the n sold it to Russiatania Corporatioin for billions of dollars=0A* Plunde red Romaniska Corporation in another hostile takeover to effectively utiliz e its oil reserves and other resources=0A* Annexed Franconia Corporation in order to increase world visibility and utilize resources to satisfy sto ckholders=0A* Generated multiple patents during tenure that are in use w orldwide today-=0A=0A* Ordered HR to implement ethnic awareness and cl eansing=0A* Successfully relocated problem employees to test labs and ex periment stations=0A* Successfully shut down corporation during a hostil e takeover by USA to satisfy stockholders and increase profits=0A* Creat ed synergistic environment to allow smooth transition to new corporate mana gement and bowed out gracefully=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A_________________ _______________=0A From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-l ist(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 3:52 PM=0ASubject: Re: Aer oElectric-List: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste=0A =0A=0AUnfortunately, utili ty hiring policies don't always select for the brightest bulbs, excusing th e pun... which sometimes can be quite a challenge for their sophisticated c ustomers who labor mightily, at times, to convince them that, for instance, current *still* equals voltage times resistance, or similar advanced conce pts.=0A=0AI once had to have days of meetings, and finally they had to fly =0A their B+ student out from headquarters, to understand that it really =0A was OK if we *gave* them a little power free from time to time to=0A improve voltage regulation of their system in our neighborhood.-=0A Fortunately, he brightened (there's that pun again) and said, "Oh, I=0A get it!"- Revised contract language and relay settings were then=0A only months of work process in coming.=0A=0AIt's kind of like government, t hough... the cynic says you want your=0A best minds being entrepreneuria l... not running the bureaucracies=0A like Hitler and Mussolini did... : -)=0A=0APaul=0A=0AOn 5/21/2012 4:06 PM, Henador Titzoff wrote: =0AThanks, E ric, I appreciate your analytic approach to our problems, with tests to det ermine validity.=0A>=0A>=0A>Today I went to AutoZone and bought some Permat ex Dielectric Grease in an 8 oz squeeze tube. -It should last me for seve ral years.=0A>=0A>=0A>Also, today I saw three local electric utility guys g et out of a Chevrolet souped up truck and start looking at one of their box es. -Two of them seemed to know what they were doing, while one was study ing what I was doing, which was studying what they were doing. I walked acr oss the street and asked them what they were doing, and he said that Engine ering was looking at a switch box to see how it functioned. -I asked him what it was switching, and he said 12,000V. -I asked him how it got stepp ed down to 240V and 120V, and he said he didn't know. -He asked one of th e other guys, and they started looking around, finally spotting a box about two doors down. -He said that box was a step down transformer. -I aske d him if he knew what Penetrox or No-Ox-ID was, and he said no and asked me what they were. I told him they were pastes with zinc used to coat aluminu m wires to keep them from corroding, and he said he had heard of something like that. -I'm not sure where they dug up this fossil, but for an electric utility engineer, he didn't know squat about his company's technology. -I'm now guessing he was a mismanager.=0A>=0A>=0A>Henador Titzoff=0A>=0A>From: Eric M. Jones <e mjones(at)charter.net>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday , May 21, 2012 9:00 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Anti Corrosive Zi =0A>=0A>I looked up Penetrox and there are several types; some for=0A copper-to- copper, some for aluminum -to-copper or=0A aluminum-to-aluminum. =0A>=0A>Some history here is required: Years ago we experimented=0A with materials that c ontained suspended copper or silver for=0A the purpose of heat s inking large Xenon lamps, while=0A simultaneously conducting cur rent (>20A). Here what=0A happened: KA-BLAM-O!!!=0A>=0A>So we sl inked back to using zinc oxide in silicone oil and=0A no more pr oblem. Why we thought suspended metal particles=0A was a good id ea is obvious...and wrong.=0A>=0A>What happened was that the suspended meta l particles=0A conducted current while simultaneously preventing the really=0A big flat contacts from mating. And the current yo u can=0A conduct with thousands of microscopic particles is quit e=0A limited.=0A>=0A>So: Using goop with suspended metal particl es is probably a=0A good idea at low current and modest voltage. ..like a=0A connection to aluminum antennae, or Al-Cu pigtails i n homes=0A wired with aluminum. But it's probably a really bad i dea=0A with high currents at low voltages. Of course this depend s=0A on the size of the particles, the materials and hardness of =0A the connectors and the pressure of the joint. =0A>=0A>But I wouldn't use the metal-particle goop without thinking=0A about i t carefully.=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Eric M. Jones=0A>www.PerihelionDesign.com =0A>113 Brentwood Drive=0A>Southbridge, MA 01550=0A>(508) 764-2072=0A>emjon es(at)charter.net=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>ht tp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373466#373466 http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?- - - - - - - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -<- - - - - - - - - - -============ =============0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A=0A-- =0APl ease note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 23, 2012
Subject: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
The other day I was communicating with an airplane builder about electrical systems in an online venue other than this one. His ideas weren't consistent with what I've come to understand as best practices, so I suggested that he join the AEC list. His response was "the last thing I need is that many email messages in my inbox every day." I thought it was such a shame that he felt that way, and that in some sense, his safety of flight would be jeopardized for reasons that amount to nothing more than logistics. Is it his own fault because he didn't want to just delete the unrelated messages? Is it the fault of the list moderators for not running a tighter ship? I'm sure that those are both factors, but neither is entirely responsible. Certainly there are many discussions that stray from the electrical system topics that are still useful and educational (with the recent paste discussion being one of many). Is it possible to have a list that stays on topic, but still keeps the benefits of group interaction and crowd-sourcing? I don't know, but I do know that I've seen online communities grow strong, fail, and even be brought back from the brink. The most prominent common feature that I see among failed or failing groups is a lack of civility, and respect among members. That usually starts with author anonymity, which thankfully we don't typically have here. It usually continues with off-topic discussions that are contentious, as political discussions always are. It seems inevitable that one side or the other usually starts to make more noise, and the folks on the other side gradually leave until all that's left is an echo chamber of like-minded folks who keep coming back just so that they can be around people who agree with them. I sure hope that this list isn't going to go down a path that leads to this kind of end. I don't think that we're anywhere close to that state yet, and that's why I bring it up- this is how it starts, and like many other infectious patterns, early intervention is certainly the most effort-effective solution. So as list members, what are we going to do? Are we going to each take individual responsibility to keep the group on topic? Are we going to let the list become what it may, for better or worse, just so that we can get our points across? I'd like to vote for option 1, and encourage others to do the same. I don't know which is better or which will prevail. But I do know that I have enough faith in Bob's work to bet my life on it, and I'd certainly like to have a place where I can stay abreast of changes and updates to the system designs, and the gradual changes to what we think of as best practices. Wouldn't it be great if this list can continue to be that source? Isn't that more likely to be the case if we can stay away from these kinds of discussions, whether or not we agree with the points? On May 23, 2012, at 7:22, Henador Titzoff wrote: Paul, I don't believe you're giving Hitler and Mussolini enough credit. If they were around today, no doubt they would be successful, big company retired CEOs. Hitler's resume would have had the following "bullets:" - Implemented Sic Stigma - Ran Germania Corporation for 12 years until successfully sold to United States in hostile takeover for billions of dollars - Increased assets by annexing Polandia Corporation in a hostile takeover - Milked Polandia Corporation out of all resources, then sold it to Russiatania Corporatioin for billions of dollars - Plundered Romaniska Corporation in another hostile takeover to effectively utilize its oil reserves and other resources - Annexed Franconia Corporation in order to increase world visibility and utilize resources to satisfy stockholders - Generated multiple patents during tenure that are in use worldwide today - Ordered HR to implement ethnic awareness and cleansing - Successfully relocated problem employees to test labs and experiment stations - Successfully shut down corporation during a hostile takeover by USA to satisfy stockholders and increase profits - Created synergistic environment to allow smooth transition to new corporate management and bowed out gracefully Henador Titzoff ------------------------------ *From:* Paul Millner *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com *Sent:* Tuesday, May 22, 2012 3:52 PM *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste Unfortunately, utility hiring policies don't always select for the brightest bulbs, excusing the pun... which sometimes can be quite a challenge for their sophisticated customers who labor mightily, at times, to convince them that, for instance, current *still* equals voltage times resistance, or similar advanced concepts. I once had to have days of meetings, and finally they had to fly their B+ student out from headquarters, to understand that it really was OK if we *gave* them a little power free from time to time to improve voltage regulation of their system in our neighborhood. Fortunately, he brightened (there's that pun again) and said, "Oh, I get it!" Revised contract language and relay settings were then only months of work process in coming. It's kind of like government, though... the cynic says you want your best minds being entrepreneurial... not running the bureaucracies like Hitler and Mussolini did... :-) Paul On 5/21/2012 4:06 PM, Henador Titzoff wrote: Thanks, Eric, I appreciate your analytic approach to our problems, with tests to determine validity. Today I went to AutoZone and bought some Permatex Dielectric Grease in an 8 oz squeeze tube. It should last me for several years. Also, today I saw three local electric utility guys get out of a Chevrolet souped up truck and start looking at one of their boxes. Two of them seemed to know what they were doing, while one was studying what I was doing, which was studying what they were doing. I walked across the street and asked them what they were doing, and he said that Engineering was looking at a switch box to see how it functioned. I asked him what it was switching, and he said 12,000V. I asked him how it got stepped down to 240V and 120V, and he said he didn't know. He asked one of the other guys, and they started looking around, finally spotting a box about two doors down. He said that box was a step down transformer. I asked him if he knew what Penetrox or No-Ox-ID was, and he said no and asked me what they were. I told him they were pastes with zinc used to coat aluminum wires to keep them from corroding, and he said he had heard of something like that. I'm not sure where they dug up this fossil, but for an electric utility engineer, he didn't know squat about his company's technology. I'm now guessing he was a mismanager. Henador Titzoff *From:* Eric M. Jones *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com *Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2012 9:00 AM *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste emjones(at)charter.net> I looked up Penetrox and there are several types; some for copper-to- copper, some for aluminum-to-copper or aluminum-to-aluminum. Some history here is required: Years ago we experimented with materials that contained suspended copper or silver for the purpose of heat sinking large Xenon lamps, while simultaneously conducting current (>20A). Here what happened: KA-BLAM-O!!! So we slinked back to using zinc oxide in silicone oil and no more problem. Why we thought suspended metal particles was a good idea is obvious...and wrong. What happened was that the suspended metal particles conducted current while simultaneously preventing the really big flat contacts from mating. And the current you can conduct with thousands of microscopic particles is quite limited. So: Using goop with suspended metal particles is probably a good idea at low current and modest voltage...like a connection to aluminum antennae, or Al-Cu pigtails in homes wired with aluminum. But it's probably a really bad idea with high currents at low voltages. Of course this depends on the size of the particles, the materials and hardness of the connectors and the pressure of the joint. But I wouldn't use the metal-particle goop without thinking about it carefully. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373466#373466 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator? - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -< ======================= * * -- Please note my new email address!millner(at)me.com * * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 23, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste
I agree with you wholeheartedly, Jared. -I apologize for posting the mess age below. -Let's get back on topic.=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A=0A_ _______________________________=0A From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> =0ATo: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 8:13 AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste=0A =0A=0AThe other day I was communicating wi th an airplane builder about electrical systems in an online venue other th an this one. -His ideas weren't consistent with what I've come to underst and as best practices, so I suggested that he join the AEC list. -His res ponse was "the last thing I need is that many email messages in my inbox ev ery day." -I thought it was such a shame that he felt that way, and that in some sense, his safety of flight would be jeopardized for reasons that a mount to nothing more than logistics. -Is it his own fault because he did n't want to just delete the unrelated messages? -Is it the fault of the l ist moderators for not running a tighter ship? -I'm sure that those are b oth factors, but neither is entirely responsible. -Certainly there are ma ny discussions that stray from the electrical system topics that are still useful and educational (with the recent paste discussion being one of many) . -Is it possible to have a list that stays on topic, but still keeps the benefits of group interaction and crow d-sourcing? -I don't know, but I do know that I've seen online communitie s grow strong, fail, and even be brought back from the brink. -The most p rominent common feature that I see among failed or failing groups is a lack of civility, and respect among members. -That usually starts with author -anonymity, which thankfully we don't typically have here. -It usually continues with off-topic discussions that are contentious, as political dis cussions always are. -It seems inevitable that one side or the other usua lly starts to make more noise, and the folks on the other side gradually le ave until all that's left is an echo chamber of like-minded folks who keep coming back just so that they can be around people who agree with them. - I sure hope that this list isn't going to go down a path that leads to this kind of end. -I don't think that we're anywhere close to that state yet, and that's why I bring it up- this is how it starts, and like many other i nfectious patterns, early intervention is certainly the most effort-effecti ve solution. -So as list members, what are we going to do? -Are we goin g to each take individual responsibility to keep the group on topic? -Are we going to let the list become what it may, for better or worse, just so that we can get our points across? -I'd like to vote for option 1, and en courage others to do the same. -I don't know which is better or which wil l prevail. -But I do know that I have enough faith in Bob's work to bet m y life on it, and I'd certainly like to have a place where I can stay abrea st of changes and updates to the system designs, and the gradual changes to what we think of as best practices. -Wouldn't it be great if this list c an continue to be that source? -Isn't that more likely to be the case if we can stay away from these kinds of discussions, whether or not we agree with the points?=0A=0A=0A=0AOn May 23, 2012, at 7:22, Henador Titzoff wrote:=0A=0A=0APaul,=0A>=0A>=0A>I don't believe you 're giving Hitler and Mussolini enough credit. -If they were around today , no doubt they would be successful, big company retired CEOs. Hitler's res ume would have had the following "bullets:"=0A>* Implemented Sic Stigma =0A>* Ran Germania Corporation for 12 years until successfully sold to U nited States in hostile takeover for billions of dollars=0A>* Increased assets by annexing Polandia Corporation in a hostile takeover=0A>* Milke d Polandia Corporation out of all resources, then sold it to Russiatania Co rporatioin for billions of dollars=0A>* Plundered Romaniska Corporation in another hostile takeover to effectively utilize its oil reserves and oth er resources=0A>* Annexed Franconia Corporation in order to increase wor ld visibility and utilize resources to satisfy stockholders=0A>* Generat ed multiple patents during tenure that are in use worldwide today-=0A>=0A >* Ordered HR to implement ethnic awareness and cleansing=0A>* Succes sfully relocated problem employees to test labs and experiment stations=0A> * Successfully shut down corporation during a hostile takeover by USA to satisfy stockholders and increase profits=0A>* Created synergistic envi ronment to allow smooth transition to new corporate management and bowed ou t gracefully=0A>Henador Titzoff=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________ =0A> From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics .com =0A>Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 3:52 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-L ist: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste=0A> =0A>=0A>Unfortunately, utility hirin g policies don't always select for the brightest bulbs, excusing the pun... which sometimes can be quite a challenge for their sophisticated customers who labor mightily, at times, to convince them that, for instance, current *still* equals voltage times resistance, or similar advanced concepts.=0A> =0A>I once had to have days of meetings, and finally they had to fly=0A their B+ student out from headquarters, to understand that it really=0A was OK if we *gave* them a little power free from time to time to=0A imp rove voltage regulation of their system in our neighborhood.-=0A Fortu nately, he brightened (there's that pun again) and said, "Oh, I=0A get i t!"- Revised contract language and relay settings were then=0A only mo nths of work process in coming.=0A>=0A>It's kind of like government, though ... the cynic says you want your=0A best minds being entrepreneurial... not running the bureaucracies=0A like Hitler and Mussolini did... :-)=0A >=0A>Paul=0A>=0A>On 5/21/2012 4:06 PM, Henador Titzoff wrote: =0A>Thanks, E ric, I appreciate your analytic approach to our problems, with tests to det ermine validity.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Today I went to AutoZone and bought some Per matex Dielectric Grease in an 8 oz squeeze tube. -It should last me for s everal years.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Also, today I saw three local electric utility guys get out of a Chevrolet souped up truck and start looking at one of the ir boxes. -Two of them seemed to know what they were doing, while one was studying what I was doing, which was studying what they were doing. I walk ed across the street and asked them what they were doing, and he said that Engineering was looking at a switch box to see how it functioned. -I aske d him what it was switching, and he said 12,000V. -I asked him how it got stepped down to 240V and 120V, and he said he didn't know. -He asked one of the other guys, and they started looking around, finally spotting a box about two doors down. -He said that box was a step down transformer. - I asked him if he knew what Penetrox or No-Ox-ID was, and he said no and as ked me what they were. I told him they were pastes with zinc used to coat a luminum wires to keep them from corroding, and he said he had heard of some thing like that. -I'm not sure where they dug up this fossil, but for an electric utility engine er, he didn't know squat about his company's technology. -I'm now guessin g he was a mismanager.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Henador Titzoff=0A>>=0A>>From: Eric M. Jones =0A>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>>S ent: Monday, May 21, 2012 9:00 AM=0A>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Anti c M. Jones"=0A =0A>>=0A>>I looked up Penetr ox and there are several types; some for=0A copper-to- copper, s ome for aluminum-to-copper or=0A aluminum-to-aluminum. =0A>>=0A> >Some history here is required: Years ago we experimented=0A wit h materials that contained suspended copper or silver for=0A the purpose of heat sinking large Xenon lamps, while=0A simultaneou sly conducting current (>20A). Here what=0A happened: KA-BLAM-O! !!=0A>>=0A>>So we slinked back to using zinc oxide in silicone oil and=0A no more problem. Why we thought suspended metal particles=0A was a good idea is obvious...and wrong.=0A>>=0A>>What happened was t hat the suspended metal particles=0A conducted current while sim ultaneously preventing the really=0A big flat contacts from mati ng. And the current you can=0A conduct with thousands of microsc opic particles is quite=0A limited.=0A>>=0A>>So: Using goop with suspended metal particles is probably a=0A good idea at low cur rent and modest voltage...like a=0A connection to aluminum anten nae, or Al-Cu pigtails in homes=0A wired with aluminum. But it's probably a really bad idea=0A with high currents at low voltage s. Of course this depends=0A on the size of the particles, the m aterials and hardness of=0A the connectors and the pressure of t he joint. =0A>>=0A>>But I wouldn't use the metal-particle goop without thin king=0A about it carefully.=0A>>=0A>>--------=0A>>Eric M. Jones =0A>>www.PerihelionDesign.com=0A>>113 Brentwood Drive=0A>>Southbridge, MA 0 1550=0A>>(508) 764-2072=0A>>emjones(at)charter.net=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> Read this topic online here:=0A>>=0A>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic .php?p=373466#373466 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?- - - - - - - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -<- - - - - - - - - - -====================== ===0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> =0A>=0A>-- =0APlease note my new email address! millner@me.com=0A>=0A>=0A>ist" target="_blank">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank"> ===== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Feels like voltage to me
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: May 23, 2012
I have heard about navy electricians finding a blown fuse by using their hand as a voltage tester. Evidently ships have banks of exposed fuses on panel boards. The electrician would touch each fuse with his thumb and finger as he ran his hand along the rows of fuses. When he received a shock in his hand, he knew that fuse was bad. I used a neon voltage tester at work on 3 phase 480VAC. If the neon light lit up when touching the 2 ends of a fuse, then that fuse was bad. Another test touches the top of one fuse and the bottom of the adjoining fuse. In this case, the tester should illuminate if all is well. The same principle is used in automotive (or aviation) fuses that illuminate when blown. The LED that is in parallel with the fuse illuminates when the fuse is blown because it is in series with the load. If the load is disconnected, the blown fuse indicator will not work. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373649#373649 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>
Subject: Feels like voltage to me
Date: May 23, 2012
Correct; voltage does not kill, current flow does- ask any live line worker -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Millner Sent: 23 May 2012 07:57 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Feels like voltage to me Touching at the same time has nothing to do with the relative safety, or foolishness. of this approach. You could touch one finger, wait 30 seconds, and touch the second without any increase in risk, or for that matter, improvement in safety. In fact, going slower might just improve the safety slightly... but don't do this anyway! Paul On 5/22/2012 10:10 AM, rayj wrote: > --> > > I really have to ask. Are you making the claim that in all the years > "Sparky" used his fingers, He NEVER had his fingertips touch at > different times? Assuming 60Hz, a difference in contact times of the > the fingertips of 1/30 of a second would allow more than enough time > for any affect that was going to take place between 1st and 2nd finger > contact. > > Never more than 1/30 of a second, ever. > > I'm skeptical. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>
Subject: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8
Date: May 23, 2012
Nope- it should be named 'Damned funny and interesting stories!' From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey Sent: 23 May 2012 05:09 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8 This thread should be renamed to "STUPID Electrician Tricks". _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henador Titzoff Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 17:33 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8 Seems to me that all this voltage touchly-feely stuff is actually machismo at work. Why not just use appropriate meters or tools to determine if >0V is present? This has the advantage of quantifying the voltage to a reasonable level rather than counting the number of nads hairs standing up. Henador Titzoff _____ From: MikeDunlop <mdunlop001(at)aol.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 6:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC9001 Schottky diode in Z-13/8 I can relate to some of these things, I started my working life as a mechanic and would like to have had a prize for every time I got zapped by touching the wrong end of a spark plug lead, 50k DC volts but no amps as such, one of the mechanics could stand there all day holding on to a live spark lead, I couldn't stand it... all it done was make me swear a lot though. On the other side of the coin, I had a friend who accidentally dropped a spanner across a 14k AC buss bar in a power station and received horrendous injuries including amputation of one arm. Moral of the story... know what you're dealing with and don't take chances. Miked (UK) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373601#373601http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator? - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -< ======================= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>
Subject: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste
Date: May 23, 2012
J Most bright people are too busy inventing the next amazing thing to worry about how the present amazing thing is being applied/ installed/ used. I recently gave a birthday speech in which I noted that what one certainly does NOT want in life is mediocrity, and that, considering my friends, I could observe a paucity of mediocrity. I am most pleased to say that this is the same on the aeroelectric list! Jay From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Millner Sent: 22 May 2012 09:52 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste Unfortunately, utility hiring policies don't always select for the brightest bulbs, excusing the pun... which sometimes can be quite a challenge for their sophisticated customers who labor mightily, at times, to convince them that, for instance, current *still* equals voltage times resistance, or similar advanced concepts. I once had to have days of meetings, and finally they had to fly their B+ student out from headquarters, to understand that it really was OK if we *gave* them a little power free from time to time to improve voltage regulation of their system in our neighborhood. Fortunately, he brightened (there's that pun again) and said, "Oh, I get it!" Revised contract language and relay settings were then only months of work process in coming. It's kind of like government, though... the cynic says you want your best minds being entrepreneurial... not running the bureaucracies like Hitler and Mussolini did... :-) Paul On 5/21/2012 4:06 PM, Henador Titzoff wrote: Thanks, Eric, I appreciate your analytic approach to our problems, with tests to determine validity. Today I went to AutoZone and bought some Permatex Dielectric Grease in an 8 oz squeeze tube. It should last me for several years. Also, today I saw three local electric utility guys get out of a Chevrolet souped up truck and start looking at one of their boxes. Two of them seemed to know what they were doing, while one was studying what I was doing, which was studying what they were doing. I walked across the street and asked them what they were doing, and he said that Engineering was looking at a switch box to see how it functioned. I asked him what it was switching, and he said 12,000V. I asked him how it got stepped down to 240V and 120V, and he said he didn't know. He asked one of the other guys, and they started looking around, finally spotting a box about two doors down. He said that box was a step down transformer. I asked him if he knew what Penetrox or No-Ox-ID was, and he said no and asked me what they were. I told him they were pastes with zinc used to coat aluminum wires to keep them from corroding, and he said he had heard of something like that. I'm not sure where they dug up this fossil, but for an electric utility engineer, he didn't know squat about his company's technology. I'm now guessing he was a mismanager. Henador Titzoff From: Eric M. Jones <mailto:emjones(at)charter.net> <emjones(at)charter.net> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 9:00 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste I looked up Penetrox and there are several types; some for copper-to- copper, some for aluminum-to-copper or aluminum-to-aluminum. Some history here is required: Years ago we experimented with materials that contained suspended copper or silver for the purpose of heat sinking large Xenon lamps, while simultaneously conducting current (>20A). Here what happened: KA-BLAM-O!!! So we slinked back to using zinc oxide in silicone oil and no more problem. Why we thought suspended metal particles was a good idea is obvious...and wrong. What happened was that the suspended metal particles conducted current while simultaneously preventing the really big flat contacts from mating. And the current you can conduct with thousands of microscopic particles is quite limited. So: Using goop with suspended metal particles is probably a good idea at low current and modest voltage...like a connection to aluminum antennae, or Al-Cu pigtails in homes wired with aluminum. But it's probably a really bad idea with high currents at low voltages. Of course this depends on the size of the particles, the materials and hardness of the connectors and the pressure of the joint. But I wouldn't use the metal-particle goop without thinking about it carefully. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373466#373466 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator? - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -< ======================= -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: connect 1-5 volt fuel level sender to legacy type
fuel ga
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: May 23, 2012
Paul, sorry to have let this dangle. Got distracted with graduation things last week and was away from the computer. Now my SMTP service seems broken on matronics so I'm using the web-access utility. Your query prompts this idea. There's a joint-venture wig-wag controller project going on that will take a jump forward tomorrow when I get some boards stuffed and shipped. With a slight modification to the electronics, this same assembly could become a signal conditioner that would accept your fuel level data and drive it past a look-up table to output the the correct current for the gage. All issues of calibration and linearity can be washed out. I'll pray over this some more and see what the hardware might look like. We may be able to find a byte-herder on the List who can do some code for you. Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373723#373723 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Initial Software Code for the Open Source Wig-Wag
Controller
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: May 23, 2012
The power FETS for the joint collaboration on a new Wig-Wag are here. I thought I was going to get time to build some POC first articles last night . . . but one of the light fixtures over my bench crapped. TWO lessons learned: These $10 Wallmart fixtures are very unfriendly for replacement of ballast. Further, if ballast replacement in less than 10 years is a modern reality, then make sure your installation is friendly to the task of taking the entire fixture down for replacement. The toggle bolts I used to hold a two-fixture strip to the ceiling went through close fit holes in the fixture (insert cursing and blood spatters here). NOW the bolt goes through a large clearance hole courtesy of Mr. Dremmel and his magic cut-off wheels. The next replacement will be easy. Anyhow, I'll get the two POC items built this evening. Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373724#373724 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 23, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: connect 1-5 volt fuel level sender to legacy
type fuel ga Thanks Bob! Aloha from the big island of Hawaii... Paul On 5/23/2012 7:45 PM, nuckollsr wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "nuckollsr" > > Paul, sorry to have let this dangle. Got distracted with graduation things last week and was away from the computer. Now my SMTP service seems broken on matronics so I'm using the web-access utility. > > Your query prompts this idea. There's a joint-venture wig-wag controller project going on that will take a jump forward tomorrow when I get some boards stuffed and shipped. With a slight modification to the electronics, this same assembly could become a signal conditioner that would accept your fuel level data and drive it past a look-up table to output the the correct current for the gage. All issues of calibration and linearity can be washed out. > > I'll pray over this some more and see what the hardware might look like. We may be able to find a byte-herder on the List who can do some code for you. > > Bob . . . > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373723#373723 > > -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Schottky steering diodes in parallel
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: May 24, 2012
A search of the archives turned up this: > 01/02/06 > http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com/2983404.html > . . . . .You can wire multiple diodes in parallel but don't depend > on this technique to "double" current rating of the steering diode. > Bob . . . Does the above statement apply only to multiple diodes contained in one package such as a bridge rectifier? If two discrete diodes are connected in parallel, would the total current capacity be almost doubled? If not, then why? It seems to me that each diode would carry half of the total current. If one of the diodes were to carry more than half of the current, then the voltage drop across that diode would increase. Thus the load would then draw current from the other diode which has a higher voltage output. Your explanation of diode physics will be appreciated. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373751#373751 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 24, 2012
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Schottky steering diodes in parallel
If the electrical characteristics of the two diodes were exactly the same, then your supposition would be correct. The problem comes in when they are not exactly the same - which is all the time. For example, one diode may have a 0.65V drop at one amp while the other diode only has to pass 1/2 amp for the same voltage drop. So in this example, with a total current of 1.5A, one diode handles 2/3 of the total current and the other handles 1/3. Because the voltage drop changes very little for a change in current, it only takes a very small difference in characteristics to cause a big mismatch in current sharing. Dick Tasker user9253 wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" > > A search of the archives turned up this: > >> 01/02/06 >> http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com/2983404.html >> . . . . .You can wire multiple diodes in parallel but don't depend >> on this technique to "double" current rating of the steering diode. >> Bob . . . > Does the above statement apply only to multiple diodes contained in one package such as a bridge rectifier? > If two discrete diodes are connected in parallel, would the total current capacity be almost doubled? If not, then why? It seems to me that each diode would carry half of the total current. If one of the diodes were to carry more than half of the current, then the voltage drop across that diode would increase. Thus the load would then draw current from the other diode which has a higher voltage output. > Your explanation of diode physics will be appreciated. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373751#373751 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schottky steering diodes in parallel
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: May 24, 2012
Thanks Dick Tasker, You explained that very well. It looks like it would be better to use one diode rated for the current, rather than parallel smaller diodes. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373776#373776 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 23, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: On a brighter note:
Tried to post this last night but I was not cognizant of changes Matt had to make to the SMTP servers at matronics. Seems some Brazilian hacker figured out a way to pipe gigabytes of trash through Matt's machines. He got it fixed but it took me awhile to become aware of the changes to my email client needed to make me compatible. So . . . onward and upward . . . -------------------------- I sure hope that this list isn't going to go down a path that leads to this kind of end. I don't think that we're anywhere close to that state yet, and that's why I bring it up- this is how it starts, and like many other infectious patterns, early intervention is certainly the most effort-effective solution. I was about to suggest the same thing Jared, thanks. I know it's getting hot and the hammock out under the tree looks inviting . . . but let's not let the heat stagnate our gray matter or civlity. Which reminds me. I have a list server set up for a forum on perceptions of the human condition. I've got about 50 names of individuals who indicated and interest. All I need is a 36 hour day . . . But I do know that I have enough faith in Bob's work to bet my life on it, and I'd certainly like to have a place where I can stay abreast of changes and updates to the system designs, and the gradual changes to what we think of as best practices. Fortunately, very few cases of serious injury or damage has roots in system architecture or selection of components. I think the greatest value of what we offer here is collaboration on failure tolerant design and lowest cost of ownership tailored to the aircraft and its proposed mission. Wouldn't it be great if this list can continue to be that source? Isn't that more likely to be the case if we can stay away from these kinds of discussions, whether or not we agree with the points? Agreed. On a brighter note, the power FETS for the joint collaboration on a new Wig-Wag are here. I thought I was going to get time to build some POC first articles last night . . . but one of the light fixtures over my bench crapped. TWO lessons learned: These $10 Wallmart fixtures are very unfriendly for replacement of ballast. Further, if ballast replacement in less than 10 years is a modern reality, then make sure your installation is friendly to the task of taking the entire fixture down for replacement. The toggle bolts I used to hold a two-fixture strip to the ceiling went through close fit holes in the fixture (insert cursing and blood spatters here). NOW the bolt goes through a large clearance hole courtesy of Mr. Dremmel and his magic cut-off wheels. The next replacement will be easy. Anyhow, I'll get the two POC items built this evening. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Schottky steering diodes in parallel
At 08:00 AM 5/24/2012, you wrote: > >A search of the archives turned up this: > > > 01/02/06 > > > http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com/2983404.html > > . . . . .You can wire multiple diodes in parallel but don't depend > > on this technique to "double" current rating of the steering diode. > > Bob . . . > >Does the above statement apply only to multiple diodes contained in >one package such as a bridge rectifier? >If two discrete diodes are connected in parallel, would the total >current capacity be almost doubled? If not, then why? It seems to >me that each diode would carry half of the total current. If one of >the diodes were to carry more than half of the current, then the >voltage drop across that diode would increase. Thus the load would >then draw current from the other diode which has a higher voltage output. > Your explanation of diode physics will be appreciated. other folks have pretty much covered it already but there are cases where paralleling is helpful but not to the extend of exact doubling. Back in the good ol' days the germanium power rectifier was a really whippy-do thing followed very shortly by the silicon device. In the beginning there was a lot of variation in some performance values even in the same lot of finished devices for reverse voltage standoff. A guy from some semiconductor house visited us techs at Hughes one day and asserted that rectifiers they sold were all done on the same line. The were first graded for the highest voltage rating, I think it was 400 volts. As soon as they had their 400v quota . . . or ran out of passable units, they would grade for 200v, then 100v and finally 50 volts. On a good day, every device in the batch might pass 400v but still bear a 50v rating just cause they needed parts with that number on it to fill the requests. The other side of the coin speaks to forward conduction characteristics which gave he designer a heads up on heat sink requirements. The lower the voltage drop the less heat was generated. Of course, this also impacted the ability of two devices in parallel to precisely share total current between the two devices. I think processes have improved quite a lot over the years (worked at Hughes in '63). In particular, devices that come from closely spaced locations in the same production lot can be paralleled with a high degree of sharing. The Schottky diode I sell is actually a dual junction device with both diodes wired in parallel. Did some early development tests and found that the pair did indeed parallel well. Also found that most devices were much better than published worst-case data. I did not rate my product with the assumption that a user would NEED the full capability of both diodes working together . . . but the testing I did confirmed my confidence in offering a robust product that is not intended to work up to the edge of falling over the cliff. Diodes are cheap. Unless one is inclined to measure and confirm the willingness of two devices to pull their fair share in tandem it's good policy just to buy the next bigger device and not worry about it. Nobody runs their prop bolts or strut brackets anywhere close to limits . . . there are few good reasons to run diodes any differently. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Civility
> >If you consider my actions in this matter uncivil, I will adjust my >actions accordingly. > > Cordially, >-- >Raymond Julian >Kettle River, MN I tried a reply to your direct mail; for some reason, my DNS server seemed not to know of your email domain address. Hence this more public reply . . . Not at all my friend. I was commenting on no particular posting . . . only acknowledging the fact that the subject discussions had run far afield and stirred up excited responses. It's interesting that we should be having this exchange on an open forum. I'm presently a too close observer of what happens when one person starts a snowball of excited and misinformed constructions rolling down hill generating what has become a career threatening situation . . . all for the stupidest of reasons. This has happened in an "institution of higher learning" where we expect our children to emerge with high standards of honorable conduct! I always thought airplane drivers were a cut above most other fraternities; a week at OSH readily reenforces that notion. My expectations for myself and my wishes for others is that we be good critical reviewers of simple-ideas and capable teachers for how those ideas assemble into recipes for success. For want of a nail, the war was lost. For want of a well understood and properly applied idea, the system is lost. This Nirvana of elegant solutions is difficult find to in a blizzard of irrelevant or erroneous information. I envision this List to be the great filter through which only elegant solutions will pass. I think we strive to conduct ourselves accordingly. If I ever have any issues with you personally, I will bring them up with you personally in what I hope is a gentlemanly manner. I would only expect a similar courtesy from you. Fly comfortably my friend. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 5 volt buss for my aircraft
From: Sam Staton <pj260(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: May 26, 2012
Due to various devices I would like to use in my RV, I have determined that there is a need to develop a dedicated 5v buss in the electrical system. I have seen numerous schematics for individual 5v regulators, but none have the capacity I would like to see. I would really appreciate it if the gurus on the list (especially you, Bob!) would point me to a schematic for a 12volt input, 10A, 5V output regulator/power supply. Thanks in advance! Sam Staton RV6 Jacksonville, FL Sent from my iPad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 5 volt buss for my aircraft
Date: May 26, 2012
Due to various devices I would like to use in my RV, I have determined that there is a need to develop a dedicated 5v buss in the electrical system. I have seen numerous schematics for individual 5v regulators, but none have the capacity I would like to see. I would really appreciate it if the gurus on the list (especially you, Bob!) would point me to a schematic for a 12volt input, 10A, 5V output regulator/power supply. Thanks in advance! Sam Staton You might want to explore this one. It seems to exceed your specs, and is a sealed weather tight unit. It will, perhaps, cost no more than a DIY supply. http://www.amazon.com/gp/cart/view.html/ref=lh_cart Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 5 volt buss for my aircraft
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: May 26, 2012
If by chance you are using a GRT EIS, it provides a 5v source. Tim Sent from my iPad On May 26, 2012, at 6:01 AM, "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" wrote: > > > Due to various devices I would like to use in my RV, I have determined that > there is a need to develop a dedicated 5v buss in the electrical system. I > have seen numerous schematics for individual 5v regulators, but none have > the capacity I would like to see. I would really appreciate it if the gurus > on the list (especially you, Bob!) would point me to a schematic for a > 12volt input, 10A, 5V output regulator/power supply. Thanks in advance! > > Sam Staton > > > You might want to explore this one. It seems to exceed your specs, > and is a sealed weather tight unit. It will, perhaps, cost no more than > a DIY supply. > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/cart/view.html/ref=lh_cart > > Roger > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 5 volt buss for my aircraft
Date: May 26, 2012
If by chance you are using a GRT EIS, it provides a 5v source. Tim This is true, but I do not believe that it is rated for a 10A output. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 5 volt buss for my aircraft
At 09:12 AM 5/26/2012, you wrote: > > > >If by chance you are using a GRT EIS, it provides a 5v source. >Tim > > > This is true, but I do not believe that it is rated for a 10A >output. > > Roger There are hundreds of ingredients that might be applicable to the sought after recipe for success. It would be helpful to know more details. Is this 10A figure based on a load analysis of anticipated loads or just a CYAWAG? 10A is a LOT of 5v snort. How many outlets and/or bus distribution taps are anticipated? I presume some of these loads are hard mounted devices and would be best powered from a distribution bus . . . while others will be loose hardware powered from connectors (USB sockets?). Are ANY of these devices anticipated to be extra useful for comfortable termination of flight? In other words, are there any devices that should powered though conduits that enjoy maximum isolation from propagation of failures experienced in other systems? Bob . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 5 volt buss for my aircraft
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: May 26, 2012
I guess I missed the 10A requirement Tim Sent from my iPad On May 26, 2012, at 9:06 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 09:12 AM 5/26/2012, you wrote: >> >> >> If by chance you are using a GRT EIS, it provides a 5v source. >> Tim >> >> >> This is true, but I do not believe that it is rated for a 10A >> output. >> >> Roger > > > There are hundreds of ingredients that might be applicable > to the sought after recipe for success. It would be helpful > to know more details. > > Is this 10A figure based on a load analysis of anticipated > loads or just a CYAWAG? 10A is a LOT of 5v snort. How > many outlets and/or bus distribution taps are anticipated? > I presume some of these loads are hard mounted devices and > would be best powered from a distribution bus . . . while > others will be loose hardware powered from connectors > (USB sockets?). Are ANY of these devices anticipated to be > extra useful for comfortable termination of flight? In > other words, are there any devices that should powered though > conduits that enjoy maximum isolation from propagation of > failures experienced in other systems? > > Bob . . . > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 5v buss in my RV
From: Sam Staton <pj260(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: May 26, 2012
Bob - In reply to your questions - the number is more of a SWAG than anything else. I have designed dedicated USB connections to keep my iPad and iPhone charged. The iPad needs 2.1A, and the iPhone needs 1-2A. I have an SD-card based MP3 player that needs 5V - maybe 1A. This brings the load to almost 5A. Doubling the capacity seemed like a good idea. The loads definitely will not be critical to flight. Open to any suggestions. Sam Sent from my iPad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2012
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: 5 volt buss for my aircraft
Nothing shows up in Amazon with your link. ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "ROGER& JEAN CURTIS" > > > Due to various devices I would like to use in my RV, I have determined that > there is a need to develop a dedicated 5v buss in the electrical system. I > have seen numerous schematics for individual 5v regulators, but none have > the capacity I would like to see. I would really appreciate it if the gurus > on the list (especially you, Bob!) would point me to a schematic for a > 12volt input, 10A, 5V output regulator/power supply. Thanks in advance! > > Sam Staton > > > You might want to explore this one. It seems to exceed your specs, > and is a sealed weather tight unit. It will, perhaps, cost no more than > a DIY supply. > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/cart/view.html/ref=lh_cart > > Roger > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2012
From: Sauli Aalto <sauli.aalto(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 5 volt buss for my aircraft
Richard E. Tasker skrev 2012-05-27 00:10: > > > Nothing shows up in Amazon with your link. > > ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote: >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "ROGER& JEAN >> CURTIS" >> >> >> Due to various devices I would like to use in my RV, I have >> determined that >> there is a need to develop a dedicated 5v buss in the electrical >> system. I >> have seen numerous schematics for individual 5v regulators, but none >> have >> the capacity I would like to see. I would really appreciate it if the >> gurus >> on the list (especially you, Bob!) would point me to a schematic for a >> 12volt input, 10A, 5V output regulator/power supply. Thanks in advance! >> >> Sam Staton >> >> >> You might want to explore this one. It seems to exceed your specs, >> and is a sealed weather tight unit. It will, perhaps, cost no >> more than >> a DIY supply. >> >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/cart/view.html/ref=lh_cart >> >> Roger >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Just a thougt... I am just planning of having a "co-pilot area" on the right side with all the gadgets that has to be powered and charged while flying and camping. Why not put two or three separate 5 volt thingies in there for redundancy? Instead of one, hot, beefy thing. Sauli ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 5 volt buss for my aircraft
Date: May 26, 2012
Nothing shows up in Amazon with your link. OOPS ... Try this: http://tinyurl.com/cskuk44 Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 5 volt buss for my aircraft
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 27, 2012
I think 10A might be more than you really need, but regardless, I always point people towards Astrodyne. See: http://www.astrodyne.com/Product/sd50.asp Their supplies are affordable, reliable and easy to get. Get the chassis kind, not the potted super-dense kind. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374038#374038 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: 5 volt bus for my aircraft
Date: May 28, 2012
G'day Eric, The specs look good Eric, except that they're 6 inches in length and 1.1 lbs in weight! I chose to stick with universal 12V power outlets and let the accessory USB adapters do the power converting ... for iPhone or iPad or whatever else might get plugged in. Kind regards, Stu F1 Rocket VH-FLY http://www.mykitlog.com/RockFLY www.teamrocketaircraft.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:31 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 5 volt buss for my aircraft --> I think 10A might be more than you really need, but regardless, I always point people towards Astrodyne. See: http://www.astrodyne.com/Product/sd50.asp Their supplies are affordable, reliable and easy to get. Get the chassis kind, not the potted super-dense kind. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374038#374038 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in a 9lb battery/jumpstart kit?
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: May 27, 2012
Hi Group I should have all kits packed up by tomorrow. I will send them out Tuesday or Wednesday. I will send an E-mail off-forum to those who placed orders when I ship. If anyone happens to want any, this is your last chance to let me know. Ron Parigoris PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject: Anyone interested in a 9lb battery/jumpstart kit? Hi Group I have quite a few brand new sets of components from a Jump Start Battery: https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=550fc20dbddb521d&resid=550FC20DBDDB521D!413&parid=550FC20DBDDB521D!408&authkey=!ADA-L-1AURQ0PJU We gutted the brand new jump start packs because we needed the case, volt meter, flashlight and receptacles. The set consists of one 9lb AGM sealed Lead Acid Battery, a 500mA constant current charger with line cord (UL approved), 1 set of jumper cables a little shy of 2 feet long, the charger control board that turns charging off at ~ 14.1 volts, also a DC cord that you can charge from a 12 VDC source (Red LED turns off when charging is complete) and a 15 amp resettable fuse that was attached to a cigarette adapter. I'm looking for $10 each plus shipping. They work great as a bench 12 volt source or turning your 12 volt cordless drill into a corded version that you can use the entire day. The local Battery Plus will give me 7$ each for just the battery as scrap but it kills me to do that, all this stuff is brand new. A little ingenuity will give you a nice jump start pack. Or buy a few hundred and make packs and sell them. I need to move them by the end of next month. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374042#374042 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Battery jump-start kit
From: Sam Staton <pj260(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: May 28, 2012
Rod - I'll take one! You can reach me off line at pj260(at)bellsouth.com. Sam Staton Jacksonville, FL Sent from my iPad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Found it!
After tracing wires, staring at the Z-16 schematic while going cross-eyed f or some time now...I finally found my alternator whine. I thought for sure it was the bridge rectifier I used between the Main and E-buss because when I turned the E-buss on the whine went away. This morning I was doing quite a bit of troubleshooting and happened to try something I somehow overlooke d. I turned off my Garmin 396 which has the audio connected to my P-1000 in tercom. I think I had done it without the engine running, but today I tried it at idle...and magic happened with no hum at all. I pulled the audio wir e from the 396 and started everything up and sure enough, that was it. So n ow I'm guessing a filter is in order between the 396 and the intercom? -I started searching the net and came up with the PAC RCA Filter SNI-1/3.5=0A =0AI'm betting Bob and Company has something already designed and if so it would be greatly appreciated if I could get the schematic and or instructio ns. I don't mind building it but if there is an easy go-to at low cost that would be good too.-=0A=0ABob, I ordered your shottkey diode this week in an effort to make this fix. If you have not sent it yet can I cancel order ?=0A=0AThank You all for the help you consistently provide,=0ADan B=0AMesa, AZ=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Found it!
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: May 29, 2012
Dan B, The avionics package for my RV-12 came with a ground loop isolator that is connected in series with the Garmin 496 audio output. The instructions say to use the isolator if XM weather option is installed. I found a similar looking device on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/GROUND-LOOP-ISOLATOR-3-5-APPLICATIONS/dp/B001EAQTRI Perhaps this is the same device that you found. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374162#374162 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Found it!
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 29, 2012
Dan, And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396? Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Lithium aircraft batteries
Date: May 29, 2012
This technology is outside my field, so I am appealing to others for insight: =98aircraft battery=99 from: wicks aircraft Underlying technology: a123 systems There are a lot of hand-waving claims on these batteries, but not a lot of hard technical data. I=99m sure that they can be adapted for flight, but some thoughtful ground testing would be useful. Thoughts? Vern ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
At 02:40 PM 5/28/2012, you wrote: After tracing wires, staring at the Z-16 schematic while going cross-eyed for some time now...I finally found my alternator whine. I thought for sure it was the bridge rectifier I used between the Main and E-buss because when I turned the E-buss on the whine went away. This morning I was doing quite a bit of troubleshooting and happened to try something I somehow overlooked. I turned off my Garmin 396 which has the audio connected to my P-1000 intercom. I think I had done it without the engine running, but today I tried it at idle...and magic happened with no hum at all. I pulled the audio wire from the 396 and started everything up and sure enough, that was it. So now I'm guessing a filter is in order between the 396 and the intercom? I started searching the net and came up with the PAC RCA Filter SNI-1/3.5 Filter for what line? Refresh my memory. The pitch of the whine changed with engine RPM? Can you run the GARMIN from it's own battery supply and still have the whine? Does the whine go up and down in volume with any of the system volume controls but not others? I'm betting Bob and Company has something already designed and if so it would be greatly appreciated if I could get the schematic and or instructions. I don't mind building it but if there is an easy go-to at low cost that would be good too. I'm still not clear as to why you would have the noise when the e-bus is powered through the normal feed path but goes away when you close the e-bus alternate feed. But knowing that it is associated with Garmin ops is helpful. Bob, I ordered your shottkey diode this week in an effort to make this fix. If you have not sent it yet can I cancel order? Sure. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> =0A>=0A>Dan B,=0A>The avionics package for my RV-12 came with a ground loop isolator that is conn ected in series with the Garmin 496 audio output.- The instructions say t o use the isolator if XM weather option is installed.- I found a similar looking device on Amazon:=0A>http://www.amazon.com/GROUND-LOOP-ISOLATOR-3-5 -APPLICATIONS/dp/B001EAQTRI=0A>Perhaps this is the same device that you fou nd.=0A>Joe=0A>=0A>=0A>Joe, Yes the one you show on Amazon is the one I ran across. I spoke with one other guy (after I found disconnecting the 396 aud io out killed the noise) and he indicated he had the same problem with the 396. Interesting that Van's now sends a filter along.=0A>Dan=0A>--------=0A >Joe Gores=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://fo rums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374162#374162=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =====0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Found it!
From: Tom Chapman <tomrv4(at)me.com>
Date: May 29, 2012
I also had a radio noise problem that I finally traced to the audio out line on my 396. It is installed in my panel in an Air Gizmo mount. Turns out the audio out wire was kinking against the back of the mount when I'd stick the unit in. I cut away some of the plastic mount right behind the audio out plug, which alleviated the kinking and stopped the radio interference... Tom On May 29, 2012, at 8:28 AM, "Eric M. Jones" wrote: > > Dan, > > And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396? > > Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
Eric, I'm not sure yet if my Garmin has a problem or this is an inherent is sue with these units. The information I have gathered to date lends itself to the later.-=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> Fro m: Eric M. Jones =0A>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.c om =0A>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 6:28 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: R s" =0A>=0A>Dan,=0A>=0A>And you don't think this indica tes a problem with the Garmin 396?=0A>=0A>Swap units and see (or have it ch ecked) before adding filters.=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Eric M. Jones=0A>www.Perih elionDesign.com=0A>113 Brentwood Drive=0A>Southbridge, MA 01550=0A>(508) 76 4-2072=0A>emjones(at)charter.net=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160=0A -======================== -======================== ============0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium aircraft batteries
At 11:15 AM 5/29/2012, you wrote: >This technology is outside my field, so I am appealing to others for insight: > >=98aircraft battery=99 from: ><http://wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=12699/index.html? PHPSESSID=10859438da394e0855f37e47720577ed>wicks >aircraft >Underlying technology: <http://www.a123systems.com/>a123 systems > >There are a lot of hand-waving claims on these >batteries, but not a lot of hard technical >data. I=99m sure that they can be adapted for >flight, but some thoughtful ground testing would be useful. Thoughts? > >Vern Li-Ion batteries for have been the Holy Grail for the TC aviation battery guys for quite some time. HBC was up to their eyeballs in studies for weight reduction without sacrificing performance before I left. I spent a significant amount of time studying battery issues for HBC in both the legacy (lead-acid) and shining-star-on-the-horizon worlds. To Cessna's credit, they spent a barrel of money and a lot of person-hours getting a Li-Ion product qualified for their aircraft. In fact, I think it was a brand new Citation being prepared for a big show that was fitted with a Li-Ion that caught fire on the ramp. This experience highlighted a few of the snakes not yet stuffed into the sack . . . Nobody had the slightest notion how to fight a lithium fire . . . nor were they provided the equipment to do it. Rumor has it that the battery was being charged on ground power and some hitch in the systems management software intended to prevent this accident wasn't minding the store. This is a RUMOR . . . I'm not yet privy to inside information of reliable source. Nonetheless, the incident sparked a rapid recall of all Li-Ion batteries still in the States. Since two airplanes were out of the country, Cessna's prophylactic against another occurrence called for an A/D to remove the Li-Ion battery in favor of SVLA or NiCad. I was asked to evaluate a Li-Ion product for suitability as a cranking battery on a TC light plane. The inquiry arrived just weeks before the Cessna ramp incident. Shucks, if Cessna could do it, I was inclined to favor use of this particular technology (Li-Fe) in the putt-putt. Yes, thousands of these batteries are in service everywhere and the owners of these batteries swear by their virtues. Nothing like consumer enthusiasm to drive up numbers of folks willing to wade in. It's a simple caveat emptor situation. If the weight of demonstrated successes combined with the weight savings is sufficiently powerful to encourage your own experiment, the risks are not scarry. . . but probably 1000x greater than for hazards demonstrated by SVLA devices (read this to mean that SVLA batteries are exceedingly low hazard). The other question to be asked and answered, "Okay, I've saved x.x pounds'. Now how do I use them?" I'm sure there are times when I left the ground a few pounds over-gross . . . not sure I'd spend extra dollars to stay under-gross no matter how safe the battery might be. A single weight-savings effort almost never offers a good return on investment. A TOTAL weight savings effort produces an airplane like Voyager that was sucked dry of no-value-added weight. It took 5 pounds of fuel to carry 1 pound of airplane around the world. 1 pound of empty weight was 6 pounds added weight at takeoff and perhaps 100 miles less range. This thought process produced an airplane that Dick Rutan feared. He wrote of nightmares about this airplane killing him. Someplace between goals and risk assumption for around-the-world-flight . . . and taking off for a nice weekend with the wife in Santa Fe, there is a very comfortable middle ground that probably is not improved by swapping out the plastic box of lead for a box of lithium. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
At 08:28 AM 5/29/2012, you wrote: > >Dan, > >And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396? > >Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters. . . . and make sure that any offending ground loop is the manifestation of a wiring architecture error. There are a lot of those radios flying without problems. The elegant solution is to identify root cause of the problem . . . but a $11 ground loop breaker might be less expensive at this stage. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium aircraft batteries
> Someplace between goals and risk assumption > for around-the-world-flight . . . and taking off > for a nice weekend with the wife in Santa Fe, there > is a very comfortable middle ground that probably > is not improved by swapping out the plastic box > of lead for a box of lithium. Here are some links for the "hot products" of the moment in LiFePo4 technologies . . . http://tinyurl.com/6pebb9a http://tinyurl.com/75fnqwa http://tinyurl.com/6ol4uwy http://tinyurl.com/7gayeoe No doubt these things can get yer juices going . . . It would be interesting to run one in a 4-wheeled vehicle for awhile. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nucko lls, III" =0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronic s.com =0A>Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 6:20 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-L Nuckolls, III" =0A>=0A>=0A>At 02:40 PM 5/28/ 2012, you wrote:=0A>After tracing wires, staring at the Z-16 schematic whil e going cross-eyed for some time now...I finally found my alternator whine. I thought for sure it was the bridge rectifier I used between the Main and E-buss because when I turned the E-buss on the whine went away. This morni ng I was doing quite a bit of troubleshooting and happened to try something I somehow overlooked. I turned off my Garmin396 which has the audio connec ted to my P-1000 intercom. I think I had done it without the engine running , but today I tried it at idle...and magic happened with no hum at all. I p ulled the audio wire from the 396 and started everything up and sure enough , that was it. So now I'm guessing a filter is in order between the 396 and the intercom?- I started searching the net and came up with the PAC RCA Filter SNI-1/3.5=0A>=0A>- Filter for what line? Refresh my memory. The pi tch=0A>- of the whine changed with engine RPM? Can you run=0A>- the GAR MINfrom it's own battery supply and still=0A>- have the whine? Does the w hine go up and down in=0A>- volume with any of the system volume controls but=0A>- not others? Bob, -Yes, this was / is certainly an alternator whine. It follows the engine RPM from idle up to about 2200 RPM (remember t he Rotax cruise is at or above 5000 RPM) and then became so high pitched it seemed to go away (probably still there but just out of MY ear-drum reciev ing frequency). I have lived with it for 20 hours of operation and I can se nd and receive fine on the com radio in flight, however, when I taxi the wh ine came into play and interfered communications with the Tower and Ground ops.=0A>=0A>=0A>The Garmin works and sounds fine on its own battery. I have used this unit in other planes and I do have the XM Weather antenna as wel l as the GPS antenna. When doing this I plug into the audio out and run it to my headset and can hear XM radio as well as terrain alerts loud and clea r.-=0A>=0A>=0A>As indicated I use a at's when I started P-1000 intercom a nd there is an audio-in wire to that. This is what I have plugged into the 396 audio out. The intercom volume does its job and just increases the whin e db's. the RPM fluctuates the frequency.=0A>=0A>I'm betting Bob and Compan y has something already designed and if so it would be greatly appreciated if I could get the schematic and or instructions. I don't mind building it but if there is an easy go-to at low cost that would be good too.=0A>=0A> - I'm still not clear as to why you would have the=0A>- noise when the e-bus is powered through the normal=0A>- feed path but goes away when you close the e-bus=0A>- alternate feed. But knowing that it is associated =0A>- with Garminops is helpful.=0A>This was my primary-question as wel l. I had my intercom power coming off of the E-Bus and the Garmin was on th e Main. I tried to place both on the same bus thinking that might help, but no joy. When I did that, interestingly the whine did not go away any more as the e-bus switch was closed. That's when I started thinking this was eit her about the intercom or the 396. That's when I zeroed in on the audio out on the 396. I spent a fair amount of time last night reading your chapter on Electromagnetic Compatability. Correct me here, but I am leaning towards trying to finish off that 1.5V peak to peak unfiltered ripple finding its way from the alternator. So if this is the case, am I just looking at placi ng a series Cap (and possibly coupled with an inductor) between the Garmin and the Intercom? I sure this is just a bandaid for -this area and not el iminating the source...but isn't that all we are really doing with this lef t over ripple?=0A>Thanks=0A>=0A>Bob, I ordered your shottkeydiode this week in an effort to make this fix. If you have not sent it yet can I cancel or ===================0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
Tom, that is an interesting point. I also have one of the Air Gizmo mounts and the wire does tend to get jammed up there.=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>__________ ______________________=0A> From: Tom Chapman <tomrv4(at)me.com>=0A>To: "aeroel ectric-list(at)matronics.com" =0A>Sent: Tues day, May 29, 2012 10:18 AM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Found it! m>=0A>=0A>I also had a radio noise problem that I finally traced to the aud io out line on my 396. It is installed in my panel in an Air Gizmo mount. T urns out the audio out wire was kinking against the back of the mount when I'd stick the unit in. =0A>=0A>I cut away some of the plastic mount right b ehind the audio out plug, which alleviated the kinking and stopped the radi o interference...=0A>=0A>Tom=0A>=0A>On May 29, 2012, at 8:28 AM, "Eric M. J ones" wrote:=0A>=0A>> --> AeroElectric-List message p osted by: "Eric M. Jones" =0A>> =0A>> Dan,=0A>> =0A>> And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396?=0A>> =0A> > Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters.=0A>> =0A>> --------=0A>> Eric M. Jones=0A>> www.PerihelionDesign.com=0A>> 113 Brentwo od Drive=0A>> Southbridge, MA 01550=0A>> (508) 764-2072=0A>> emjones(at)cha rter.net=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Read this topic online here:=0A>> =0A >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160=0A>> =0A>> ======================0A>=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
Found this thread on VansAirforce -http://www.vansairforce.com/community/ showthread.php?t=17882=0A>It looks like this is a common problem with the bert L. Nuckolls, III" =0A>=0A>At 08:28 AM 5 Jones" =0A>> =0A>> Dan,=0A>> =0A>> And you don't thin k this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396?=0A>> =0A>> Swap units and s ee (or have it checked) before adding filters.=0A>=0A>- . . . and make s ure that any offending ground=0A>- loop is the manifestation of a wiring architecture=0A>- error.=0A>=0A>- There are a lot of those radios fl ying without=0A>- problems. The elegant solution is to identify root=0A> - cause of the problem . . . but a $11 ground=0A>- loop breaker might be less expensive at this=0A>- stage.=0A>=0A>=0A>- Bob . . . =0A>=0A> ==0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
At 09:14 PM 5/29/2012, you wrote: >Found this thread on >VansAirforce http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=17882 >It looks like this is a common problem with the Garmin 396. >Dan Okay, where does the 396 get power ground. Try grounding it to the same place all the audio-lo or shield grounds get connected. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nucko lls, III" =0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronic s.com =0A>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 7:31 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric- List: Re: Found it!=0A> =0A>=0A>At 09:14 PM 5/29/2012, you wrote:=0A>=0A>Fo und this thread on VansAirforce-=0Ahttp://www.vansairforce.com/community/ showthread.php?t=17882=0A>>=0A>>It looks like this is a common problem wi th the Garmin 396. =0A>>=0A>>Dan=0A>> =0A>- Okay, where does the 396 get power ground. Try grounding it=0A>- to the same place all the audio-lo or shield grounds get=0A>- connected.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>- Bob . . . =0A>Will ==== =0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 30, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
At 09:52 PM 5/29/2012, you wrote: > >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 7:31 PM >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Found it! > >At 09:14 PM 5/29/2012, you wrote: >>Found this thread on >>VansAirforce http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=17882 >>It looks like this is a common problem with the Garmin 396. >>Dan > > Okay, where does the 396 get power ground. Try grounding it > to the same place all the audio-lo or shield grounds get > connected. > > > Bob . . . > >Will take another look Bob. Thanks Just dug up the manual on the 396. I'm 99% certain that this is a ground loop problem. The telling symptom is alternator noise that increases with ship's loads when substantial currents travel over the airframe. I'll bet if you move the Garmin DC(-) lead to the same ground as all the avionics/ audio system grounds, the noise will go away. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 30, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 7:56 AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Found it!=0A =0A=0AAt 09:52 PM 5/29/2012, you wrote:=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>=0A >From: "Robert L.=0ANuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0A>=0A>T o: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>=0A>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 7:31 PM=0A>=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Found it!=0A>=0A>=0A>At 09:1 4 PM 5/29/2012, you=0Awrote:=0A>Found this thread on VansAirforce-=0Ahttp ://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=17882 =0A>>It looks li ke this is a common problem with the Garmin 396. =0A>>Dan=0A>=0A>- Okay, where does the 396 get power ground. Try grounding=0Ait=0A>=0A>- to the s ame place all the audio-lo or shield grounds get=0A>=0A>- connected.=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>- Bob . . . =0A>=0A>=0A>Will take another look Bob.=0AThanks =0A=0A- Just dug up the manual on the 396. I'm 99% certain=0A- that thi s is a ground loop problem. The telling=0A- symptom is alternator noise t hat increases with=0A- ship's loads when substantial currents travel over =0A- the airframe. I'll bet if you move the Garmin=0A- DC(-) lead to th e same ground as all the avionics/=0A- audio system grounds, the noise wi ll go away.=0A=0A- Bob . . . =0AOK, I won't be able to get to the airport for a couple days, but I will play with the ground wires then and report b ====================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: May 30, 2012
Subject: Schicke GR6 Voltage Regulator
Friends in Europe, especially Germany, Would someone please find out what it would take for the Schicke Electronic to allow someone in the USA to purchase one of their GR6 voltage regulators. They state on their site, to the best of my poor "Buch Deutch" from 1968 that they require written permission for export to the United States. I would like very much to purchase one of their voltage regulators but do not know how to go about it. Thanks very much in advance for your assistance. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>
Subject: Schicke GR6 Voltage Regulator
Date: May 31, 2012
I'm going to send out the same message that I sent to the Rotax list, in response to Bob, just for your amusement, and perhaps edification... Here it is: Hah, the world is full of such idiosyncrasies. Try getting something out of Zeftronics in the US. Took me around 6 months to get a generator regulator from them; it arrived last week and I am too terrified to look at the details of it in case I ordered the wrong one- my client will castrate me. And there I thought that Germany was a service desert... How about trying what the rest of the world does when trying to buy something from Itunes? Lie. You can only buy stuff from Itunes if you are in the US, so the rest of us create fictitious email addresses that seem to originate in the US and get on with buying what we desire. Of course, being from third world countries that very few people in the US have heard of, much less place, we immediately sell the tunes on the black market. Hmm, not really. And, in defence of the US (which I am not entirely comfortable with doing; you did re-elect dubyah, and you still use that antiquated imperial system that stuffs me around no end... ) I did not know where most of the US cities were... or which states were what. But then I visited some of them. And now I do know where some of them are. Especially OSHKOSH! J So, Bob, if you cannot figure a way around this, mail me directly. I, being non-American ;-) , have a few friends in Europe who might be able to help out by getting the item sent to them and sending it on to you.... even some in Germany (but don't mention the war!) :o Please someone tell me if this gets through; everytime that I send a reply there is a deafening silence- what is that? Is it because I am from somewhere in Africa (South Africa is in the south of Africa and is a country in its own right - SOUTH AFRICA), or is it that no one wants to talk to me because our idiot president has his d**k all over the net? Jay >From Johannesburg (apparently one of the most dangerous cities in the world) (crap- its an amazing metropolis that's even sexier than Cape Town- with less stoned people) (actually, maybe more stoned people, but WAY more interesting) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HH Enterprises * Supply and installation of top class water filters for your best drinking experience! * Aircraft assembly, repair, wiring and avionics * Flight instruction * General and Electrical Engineering services (NHD Elec Eng, BTech Elec Eng, GDE ELec Eng) * Great dinner parties and conversation * General adventuring, climbing, kayaking and living Blog: www.rawhyde.wordpress.com Cel: 083 300 8675 Email: jay(at)horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: 31 May 2012 12:24 AM aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Schicke GR6 Voltage Regulator Friends in Europe, especially Germany, Would someone please find out what it would take for the Schicke Electronic to allow someone in the USA to purchase one of their GR6 voltage regulators. They state on their site, to the best of my poor "Buch Deutch" from 1968 that they require written permission for export to the United States. I would like very much to purchase one of their voltage regulators but do not know how to go about it. Thanks very much in advance for your assistance. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 30, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 7:31 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re : Found it!=0A =0A=0AAt 09:14 PM 5/29/2012, you wrote:=0A=0AFound this thre ad on VansAirforce-=0Ahttp://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.ph p?t=17882=0A>=0A>It looks like this is a common problem with the Garmin 3 96. =0A>=0A>Dan=0A> =0A- Okay, where does the 396 get power ground. Try g rounding it=0A- to the same place all the audio-lo or shield grounds get =0A- connected.=0A=0A=0A=0A- Bob . . . =0AI did get to the hanger today and quickly pulled the wires out into the open that has the 3.5mm plug- =0A(one that goes into the Garmin). Can you explain the lo / hi audio wire thing. Am I to understand that-=0Athe lo is to be soldered to the ground? This may be my goof as I-purchased this plug (which is stereo-=0Aand m y intercom is not). I think I may have soldered the two wires to right and left and the ground-=0Amight be left out in the cold. Will need to double check, but I looked up the PM 1000 pin-out after I-=0Agot home so it may be in the-soldering of that plug. I purchased the solderable mini plug i n stereo-=0Aconfig as I wanted to hear the music / alerts in both sides o =========================0A ======= ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: PMAG
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: May 30, 2012
Hey gang, what grommet or gadget was being discussed to use on the wires end s to the PMAG connector? I ended up using SD male D-sub pins with the pin clipped off and just the crimp left over the wire. S eems ok, but I don't get warm fuzzys from these connectors. Not at all.... Thanks, Tim > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 30, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
Bob . . . I did get to the hanger today and quickly pulled the wires out into the open that has the 3.5mm plug (one that goes into the Garmin). Can you explain the lo / hi audio wire thing. In a monophonic audio cable with 3.5 mm plug, the tip is connected to the signal/center/hi lead, the sleeve is connected to the shield/ground/lo lead. A stereo cable adds another free conductor and the two signal wires become right and left audio. The shield/ground/lo lead still connects to the sleeve. The larger analogy can be seen on a legacy microphone connector http://aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html Am I to understand that the lo is to be soldered to the ground? This may be my goof as I purchased this plug (which is stereo and my intercom is not). I think I may have soldered the two wires to right and left and the ground might be left out in the cold. Will need to double check, but I looked up the PM 1000 pin-out after I got home so it may be in the soldering of that plug. I purchased the solderable mini plug in stereo config as I wanted to hear the music / alerts in both sides of headset. I'm confused. If you have stereo headsets, then you would need to install 3-circuit jacks and tie both r/l audio from headset together to be treated as a mono headset. This is the only place you would use a 3-ckt jack. The PM1000 MUSIC IN is monophonic which would required blending r/l channels together BEFORE wiring the blend into pin 20 and the lo/gnd side to pin 7. Emacs! This would call for a 2-ckt plug to do the mate up between the Garmin and the PS1000. And just for grins, I'd use pin 7 of the PS1000 for BOTH audio ground and DC power ground for the Garmin. http://tinyurl.com/7ypuofg Emacs! Unless you have stereo audio to handle, a simple 2-ckt plug/jack combination will suffice. The mis-application of the 3-ckt jack may indeed be contributing to your problem. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: PMAG
Date: May 30, 2012
I ordered wire ferrules from McMasterCarr for the Pmag connections. See http://www.mcmaster.com/#lug-terminals/=hrnvdt Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Andres Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 8:03 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: PMAG Hey gang, what grommet or gadget was being discussed to use on the wires ends to the PMAG connector? I ended up using SD male D-sub pins with the pin clipped off and just the crimp left over the wire. Seems ok, but I don't get warm fuzzys from these connectors. Not at all.... Thanks, Tim D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: PMAG
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: May 30, 2012
Ok thanks! I'll give them a try. Tim Sent from my iPad On May 30, 2012, at 9:39 PM, "B Tomm" wrote: > I ordered wire ferrules from McMasterCarr for the Pmag connections. See > > http://www.mcmaster.com/#lug-terminals/=hrnvdt > > Bevan > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Andres > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 8:03 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: PMAG > > Hey gang, what grommet or gadget was being discussed to use on the wires e nds to the PMAG connector? I ended up using SD male > D-sub pins with the pin clipped off and just the crimp left over the wire. Seems ok, but I don't get warm fuzzys from these connectors. Not at all... . > Thanks, Tim > > >> > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"'>http://w ww.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.co m/contribution > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
Thanks Bob, That brought it home for me. Off to get a-2-ckt plug.=0ADan =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 8:24 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Found it!=0A =0A=0A=0A- Bob . . . =0A=0AI did get to the hanger today and quickly pulled the wires out into the=0Aopen that has the 3.5mm plug =0A=0A(one that goes into the Garmin). Can you explain the lo / hi audio wi re=0Athing. =0A=0A- In a monophonic audio cable with 3.5 mm plug, the tip is=0A- connected to the signal/center/hi lead, the sleeve is=0A- conne cted to the shield/ground/lo lead.=0A=0A- A stereo cable adds another fre e conductor and the=0A- two signal wires become right and left audio. The =0A- shield/ground/lo lead still connects to the sleeve.=0A=0A- The lar ger analogy can be seen on a legacy microphone=0A- connector=0A=0Ahttp:// aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html=0A=0AAm I to understand that =0A=0Athe lo is to be soldered to the ground? This may be my goof as I=0Ap urchased this plug (which=0Ais stereo and my intercom is not). I think I ma y have soldered the two=0Awires to right and left and the ground =0Amight b e left out in the cold. Will need to double check, but I looked up=0Athe PM 1000 pin-out after I =0Agot home so it may be in the soldering of that plu g. I purchased the=0Asolderable mini plug in stereo =0Aconfig as I wanted t o hear the music / alerts in both sides of=0Aheadset.=0A=0A--- I'm co nfused. If you have stereo headsets, then you=0Awould=0A--- need to i nstall 3-circuit jacks and tie both r/l=0Aaudio=0A--- from headset to gether to be treated as a mono=0Aheadset.=0A--- This is the only plac e you would use a 3-ckt=0Ajack.=0A=0A--- The PM1000 MUSIC IN is monop honic which would=0Arequired=0A--- blending r/l channels together BEF ORE wiring the=0Ablend=0A--- into pin 20 and the lo/gnd side to pin 7 .=0A=0A=0A-- =0A=0A=0A-- This would call for a 2-ckt plug to do the mate up=0Abetween=0A-- the Garmin and the PS1000. And just for grins, I'd use=0A-- pin 7 of the PS1000 for BOTH audio ground and DC power=0A -- ground for the Garmin.=0A=0A-- http://tinyurl.com/7ypuofg=0A=0A =0A-- Unless you have stereo audio to handle, a simple 2-ckt=0Aplug/jac k=0A-- combination will suffice. The mis-application of the 3-ckt=0Ajac k=0A-- may indeed be contributing to your problem. =0A- Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: PMAG
At 11:39 PM 5/30/2012, you wrote: I ordered wire ferrules from McMasterCarr for the Pmag connections. See http://www.mcmaster.com/#lug-terminals/=hrnvdt Bevan Hmmmm . . . Not sure these terminals will add anything useful to the mating of wires to the pmag. The wire grip in Emagair's control plugs are designed to grab stranded wire. One might improve on the grip slightly by combing the strands out so that they don't over-lap each other in the grip area. Having made the electrical connection secure, legacy termination techniques call for support of the wire+ insulation immediately adjacent to the electrical connection. This design goal is addressed in Emagair instructions with use of M21919 padded clamp as shown. Emacs! Adding a device like this . . . [] . . . to the end of the wire decreases effectiveness of the electrical connection. Closing the wire grips down on 19 strands of wire offers as many as 38 points of hi-pressure contact with the stranding layup. Crimping a 'pin' on the strands reduces this to 2 points of contact (maybe 3 if the 'groove' in the pin is flat against a contact surface. Therefore, I suggest that more elegant technique is to follow Emagair instructions as published. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: PMAG
Date: May 31, 2012
Good thoughts Bob, I have been of the opinion (perhaps wrongly) that these type of connections (found on Pmags) were designed for use with solid wire. If used on finely stranded wire in a high vibration environment,, wouldn't the sharp pinch force eventually squish/sever some of the small strands effectively loosening the contact? Initially. not all the strands can be in contact with the connector (maybe half at best). Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 8:25 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: PMAG At 11:39 PM 5/30/2012, you wrote: I ordered wire ferrules from McMasterCarr for the Pmag connections. See http://www.mcmaster.com/#lug-terminals/=hrnvdt Bevan Hmmmm . . . Not sure these terminals will add anything useful to the mating of wires to the pmag. The wire grip in Emagair's control plugs are designed to grab stranded wire. One might improve on the grip slightly by combing the strands out so that they don't over-lap each other in the grip area. Having made the electrical connection secure, legacy termination techniques call for support of the wire+ insulation immediately adjacent to the electrical connection. This design goal is addressed in Emagair instructions with use of M21919 padded clamp as shown. Emacs! Adding a device like this . . . [] <http://images1.mcmaster.com/Contents/gfx/large/8009k26p1l.png?ver=10574016> . . . to the end of the wire decreases effectiveness of the electrical connection. Closing the wire grips down on 19 strands of wire offers as many as 38 points of hi-pressure contact with the stranding layup. Crimping a 'pin' on the strands reduces this to 2 points of contact (maybe 3 if the 'groove' in the pin is flat against a contact surface. Therefore, I suggest that more elegant technique is to follow Emagair instructions as published. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: PMAG
At 11:39 AM 5/31/2012, you wrote: >Good thoughts Bob, > >I have been of the opinion (perhaps wrongly) that these type of >connections (found on Pmags) were designed for use with solid >wire. If used on finely stranded wire in a high vibration >environment,, wouldn't the sharp pinch force eventually squish/sever >some of the small strands effectively loosening the >contact? Initially. not all the strands can be in contact with the >connector (maybe half at best). > >Bevan Had a chat with Brad Dement about an hour ago to confirm validity of my earlier post. Perhaps I can offer a clarification of the science behind this relatively new wire termination technology. Clamping solid wires under screw heads and nuts or between washers is a legacy technique going back a century or more. When stranded wire became the material of choice for ease of installation and vibration resistance, getting a good clamp under a rotating fastener became problematic. An ol' gray beard electrician once advised me to put a counter clockwise twist on strands and them wrap the wire around a stud in a clockwise direction so that rotational motion of the fasteners tended to tighten the twist as opposed to unwinding it. This technique recognized the fact that stranded wire was really a different animal for achieving enduring connections. Then folks like AMP, Molex, T&B came along and figured out ways to crimp a terminal onto a stranded wire in a way that essentially turned terminal and wire into a single piece of metal. But the guys who made a living figuring out ways to connect wires came up with a new idea which I've illustrated below. The goal is to make a high pressure, tightly constrained joining of wire strands (green) with an electrical conductor within the assembly (red). Design goals included taking both the screw and the mechanical structure around the joint out of the current pathway. It would also be nice if the end of the screw did scrub against the strands during rotation. Emacs! What you see above is a generalization of the elegant solution. Stranded wires are captive within the 'box' along with a large area conductor driven into intimate contact with the strands by screw pressure. The end of the screw never touches the strands. Further, the box around the joint and the screw are rather robust. Brad tells me that he has put a lot of torque to these seemingly small screws without stripping the threads or twisting the head off. So what appears to be a joining process that favors solid wire, the technique actually accommodates stranded wires equally well . . . if not better. The magic happens by combining high pressure to a constrained bundle of strands and keeping the numbers of joints in the power path to a minimum. The forces are less than for a crimped joint . . . the strands are minimally deformed and certainly not gas-tight with the red conductor . . . but it's adequate to the task. No value is added by converting the strands into a 'solid' conductor. Pretty slick. That takes care of electrical issues . . . and in the stationary environment is probably sufficient. In a high vibration environment, the installation is not complete until the bundle coming off the terminal strip is firmly constrained in a closely co-located clamp. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: PMAG
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: May 31, 2012
Thanks for following up on this Bob Tim ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in a 9lb battery/jumpstart kit?
From: "Jack in Austin" <aviation(at)comconn.com>
Date: May 31, 2012
My check was cashed a month ago.. but I never received anything but a few emails telling me why nothing had shipped my way. Has *anyone* actually received anything? I was going to see what shipped, and maybe order again, based on what I received, but at this point, I'm pretty much writing this off as a scam, and a lesson learned. -Jack Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374436#374436 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in a 9lb battery/jumpstart
kit? At 06:06 PM 5/31/2012, you wrote: > > >My check was cashed a month ago.. but I never received anything but >a few emails telling me why nothing had shipped my way. > >Has *anyone* actually received anything? I was going to see what >shipped, and maybe order again, based on what I received, but at >this point, I'm pretty much writing this off as a scam, and a lesson learned. Ron has a boat load of these offers to box up and ship. I think he's been waiting until everyone who wants one has placed their order so he can do a one-time shipping effort. Ron posted a note on the 27th here: http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=89897 wherein he thought he was close to moving a bunch of lead, plastic and misc goodies out of his shop! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2012
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in a 9lb battery/jumpstart
kit?
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Jack No scam, everyone will get their stuff. Yours will go out in the next day or two. It ends up packaging two or three in the Flat Rate box is rather time consuming. They are also rather heavy so I have only been dropping off two or three at the post office at a time. You have my word, if not you can come take away my first born, just mind he is in college! I made a post that this is last chance to order,, and I got more orders from that post than the first posting! The charge controllers are rather kool. You will get a 500mA 115VAC transformer to power the charge controller. That I have used a lot and it works fine. Because I needed to charge a number of batteries for this last wave, since I have a 200 amp 12V battery on hand, I used it to power a half dozen charge controllers through the 12 volt input of the charge controller. Works great, just like using the transformer. I include in the package a little schematic, but be aware that once the battery "peaks", you need to unplug the input to get the holding circuit to reset. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 01, 2012
Subject: NAV splitter grounded?
From: Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com>
Quick question: Should the Comant CI-507 Nav/GS splitter (between my antenna and GNS430) be isolated from the airframe ground? Seems like the answer is "yes" but I didn't think about it when wiring my panel, and it's currently not isolated. I'm thinking this could be responsible for my "jumpy" needles. -Rob -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 01, 2012
Subject: Re: NAV splitter grounded?
Rob, The case is almost certainly grounded through the coax shield (check continuity from the connector barrel to the case). If the case is metal I'd think it wouldn't matter if were mechanically grounded or not. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Rob Kochman wrote: > Quick question: Should the Comant CI-507 Nav/GS splitter (between my antenna > and GNS430) be isolated from the airframe ground? Seems like the answer is > "yes" but I didn't think about it when wiring my panel, and it's currently > not isolated. I'm thinking this could be responsible for my "jumpy" > needles. > > -Rob > > -- > Rob Kochman > RV-10 Flying since March 2011 > Woodinville, WA > http://kochman.net/N819K > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Schicke GR6 Voltage Regulator
Date: Jun 02, 2012
I heard you too Jay! Etienne =46rom Port Elizabeth (Better than Johannesburg) ;-) On 31 May 2012, at 1:12 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: > > Please someone tell me if this gets through; everytime that I send a reply there is a deafening silence- what is that? Is it because I am from somewhere in Africa (South Africa is in the south of Africa and is a country in its own right ' SOUTH AFRICA), or is it that no one wants to talk to me because our idiot president has his d**k all over the net? > > Jay > =46rom Johannesburg (apparently one of the most dangerous cities in the world) > (crap- its an amazing metropolis that=92s even sexier than Cape Town- with less stoned people) > (actually, maybe more stoned people, but WAY more interesting) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: NAV splitter grounded?
At 08:33 PM 6/1/2012, you wrote: >Quick question: Should the Comant CI-507 Nav/GS splitter (between my >antenna and GNS430) be isolated from the airframe ground? Seems >like the answer is "yes" but I didn't think about it when wiring my >panel, and it's currently not isolated. I'm thinking this could be >responsible for my "jumpy" needles. As Dave pointed out, the metallic enclosure of your splitter has continuity to ground by way of the coax shields that are tied to it through the connectors. Things that go on 'inside the wall of shields' in a feed line system is pretty much an isolated world. Just how and where the shields get tie to the airframe . . . or whether they ever get tied to airframe has no influence upon the business of getting radio frequency power from one end to the other. Are you seeing similar symptoms with more than one steering needle? Both VOR or is one of them a Glide Slope? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
Had a little hitch in the assembly task. Found a layout error on the board and some scrambled numbers in the connector pin-outs. All has been fixed, a board stuffed and static tested. The SOIC-8 mos-fets will sink 1.5 amps with no more than 0.040 volts drop. Higher currents will be proportionally higher but still quite satisfactory to our needs. The revised data package and pictures are posted at: http://tinyurl.com/6w9vndk I'll mail you a proof-of-concept board, test harness and enclosure to work with on Monday. Bob . . . At 12:50 PM 5/4/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Send one out to me, please... > >I will test the current software and if it checks out I will flash some >PIC12F683 chips and send them out to you. If there is anyone else >who is getting one of the initial boards and would like a flashed >micro let me know. > >Greg McHugh >4201 N Willoway Estates Ct >Bloomfield Hills, MI 48302 > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=372397#372397 > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jun 02, 2012
Will this gadget replace the simple automotive 3 terminal flasher I'm using now for Wig/Wag? I assume it's going to have timing options or something that makes it better than a flasher. Thanks, Tim Sent from my iPad On Jun 2, 2012, at 8:19 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > Had a little hitch in the assembly task. Found a layout > error on the board and some scrambled numbers in the > connector pin-outs. All has been fixed, a board stuffed > and static tested. The SOIC-8 mos-fets will sink 1.5 amps > with no more than 0.040 volts drop. Higher currents will > be proportionally higher but still quite satisfactory to our > needs. > > The revised data package and pictures are posted at: > > http://tinyurl.com/6w9vndk > > I'll mail you a proof-of-concept board, test harness > and enclosure to work with on Monday. > > Bob . . . > > At 12:50 PM 5/4/2012, you wrote: >> >> Bob, >> >> Send one out to me, please... >> >> I will test the current software and if it checks out I will flash some >> PIC12F683 chips and send them out to you. If there is anyone else >> who is getting one of the initial boards and would like a flashed >> micro let me know. >> >> Greg McHugh >> 4201 N Willoway Estates Ct >> Bloomfield Hills, MI 48302 >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=372397#372397 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
At 11:15 PM 6/2/2012, you wrote: > >Will this gadget replace the simple automotive 3 terminal flasher >I'm using now for Wig/Wag? I assume it's going to have timing >options or something that makes it better than a flasher. >Thanks, Tim This project was conceived as an alternative to the automotive 3-terminal flashers that don't work well on LED landing lights. As you can see from the wiring diagram in the data package that the control switch doesn't carry lamp current . . . so it can be a minature, low current device. We hadn't talked about timing options. But there are a couple of extra inputs to the board that could be used to select flash rates. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2012
From: fedico94(at)mchsi.com
Subject: RPM Hall efforct sensor
my G3X system uses a Hall effect sensor (made by UMA) on the Slick magneto. I do not get a reading from this on the MFD and checked set up for proper sensor input. I note that there is a 10V power supplied to the sensor and it has a ground wire and I beleive a signal wire. It seems the Hall efect sensor acts as a switch and is suppposed to open the switch breaking the power with each swipe of a magnet. I tried testing this with my multimeter (analogue) and only saw a sustained 10V reading. Going forward with this G3X system I think I will have to test the integrety of the wiring from time to time. I would think if I put a signal down the sensor wire of 10V at some frequency reading I would eventually get a response on the RPM meter on the MFD. Then I would know that that the sensor is defective. Or, in this particular case is there some way to bench test the Hall effect switch after removal from the engine ? What equipment could I purchase to perform some of these minor sensor tests on glass screen systems with sensor signal tested at the wiring at the sensor or along a connector like the one I have ? Bob's book has some information on analgoue guages. What potential for damage exists from these test ? thanks Robert Federhofer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2012
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: RPM Hall efforct sensor
Robert... I'm not familiar with the UMA hall effect sensor, but any that I have ever worked with need three wires...one ground, one for power and one for the signal. Is it possible that the case is a ground and if you have only two wires then the one you are measuring is the power and the other the signal? Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: fedico94(at)mchsi.com > > my G3X system uses a Hall effect sensor (made by UMA) on the Slick magneto. I do not get a reading from this on the MFD and checked set up for proper sensor input. > > I note that there is a 10V power supplied to the sensor and it has a ground wire and I beleive a signal wire. It seems the Hall efect sensor acts as a switch and is suppposed to open the switch breaking the power with each swipe of a magnet. I tried testing this with my multimeter (analogue) and only saw a sustained 10V reading. > > Going forward with this G3X system I think I will have to test the integrety of the wiring from time to time. I would think if I put a signal down the sensor wire of 10V at some frequency reading I would eventually get a response on the RPM meter on the MFD. Then I would know that that the sensor is defective. Or, in this particular case is there some way to bench test the Hall effect switch after removal from the engine ? > > What equipment could I purchase to perform some of these minor sensor tests on glass screen systems with sensor signal tested at the wiring at the sensor or along a connector like the one I have ? Bob's book has some information on analgoue guages. What potential for damage exists from these test ? > > thanks Robert Federhofer > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 03, 2012
Bob, Very good, I will test the software with the hardware. I had also considered using the last two inputs to control the wig-wag interval. I have it set to 750 millisec at the moment which seems to be a standard value for aircraft wig-wag (each light flashes 40 times per minute). The last two inputs could be used to allow the interval to be controlled via jumpers or a switch. In terms of using this as a replacement for the auto flasher, I guess the only restriction would be the maximum lamp power limit which you are planning to define after additional hardware testing. Also, there was at least one other person who was interested in software development who requested a board to use for testing. See below... Greg McHugh ------------------- Bob, I'd like one of the boards. I'm not sure if I'll be herding bytes, or they will be herding me, but I'd like to try! Please let me know what I owe you for it. Greg - as long as I've got your code, I'll try to flash my own chip... but I'll contact you if I can't get it to work!! Thank you!! Paul A. Fisher 8428 114th Avenue West Taylor Ridge, Illinois 61284 -- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374588#374588 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2012
Subject: Re: RPM Hall efforct sensor
From: Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com>
Are you using a pull-up resistor? Other EMS systems (Dynon, AFS, MGL) require one. See this: http://www.mglavionics.com/Tach_Sender_Instructions.pdf -Rob On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Harley wrote: > Robert... > > I'm not familiar with the UMA hall effect sensor, but any that I have eve r > worked with need three wires...one ground, one for power and one for the > signal. Is it possible that the case is a ground and if you have only tw o > wires then the one you are measuring is the power and the other the signa l? > > Harley > ------------------------------ > > > my G3X system uses a Hall effect sensor (made by UMA) on the Slick magnet o. I do not get a reading from this on the MFD and checked set up for prop er sensor input. > > I note that there is a 10V power supplied to the sensor and it has a grou nd wire and I beleive a signal wire. It seems the Hall efect sensor acts a s a switch and is suppposed to open the switch breaking the power with each swipe of a magnet. I tried testing this with my multimeter (analogue) and only saw a sustained 10V reading. > > Going forward with this G3X system I think I will have to test the integr ety of the wiring from time to time. I would think if I put a signal down the sensor wire of 10V at some frequency reading I would eventually get a r esponse on the RPM meter on the MFD. Then I would know that that the senso r is defective. Or, in this particular case is there some way to bench tes t the Hall effect switch after removal from the engine ? > > What equipment could I purchase to perform some of these minor sensor tes ts on glass screen systems with sensor signal tested at the wiring at the s ensor or along a connector like the one I have ? Bob's book has some infor mation on analgoue guages. What potential for damage exists from these tes t ? > > thanks Robert Federhofer > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2012
Subject: Re: NAV splitter grounded?
From: Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com>
Thanks, guys... I have only one nav radio, and I'm seeing jumpy needles on both the lateral (VOR and localizers) as well as glideslope. GPS needle (lateral only) is rock solid. I have this antenna: http://www.rami.com/product-view.php?pid=8. It's mounted under the horizontal stabilizer on an RV-10. Going to do more testing today. -Rob On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**> > > > At 08:33 PM 6/1/2012, you wrote: > >> Quick question: Should the Comant CI-507 Nav/GS splitter (between my >> antenna and GNS430) be isolated from the airframe ground? Seems like the >> answer is "yes" but I didn't think about it when wiring my panel, and it's >> currently not isolated. I'm thinking this could be responsible for my >> "jumpy" needles. >> > > As Dave pointed out, the metallic enclosure > of your splitter has continuity to ground > by way of the coax shields that are tied > to it through the connectors. > > Things that go on 'inside the wall of shields' > in a feed line system is pretty much an isolated > world. Just how and where the shields get tie > to the airframe . . . or whether they ever get > tied to airframe has no influence upon the > business of getting radio frequency power from > one end to the other. > > Are you seeing similar symptoms with more than > one steering needle? Both VOR or is one of them > a Glide Slope? > > > Bob . . . > > -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2012
From: fedico94(at)mchsi.com
Subject: Re: RPM Hall efforct sensor
Food for thought but I think the AHARS unit must have this inside. The schematic and instructions do not mention any additional resister to be added. MGL has a nice idea that looks more functional for placement in a small airplane and allow for accessability and serviceing. Cnnot understand why Big time companies like Garmin design boxes that would be better suited for a 777 with lots or room to work on the unit. I note that the placement of the sensor is closer to the mounting plate on the 6300 series Slick mag whereas mine appears to be mounted mid body based upon the vent plug for the mag. The halleffect unit screws into this plug. Interesting educational videos on YouTube regarding hall efeect sensors (3 types) and how they react to magnet ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RPM Hall efforct sensor Are you using a pull-up resistor? Other EMS systems (Dynon, AFS, MGL) require one. See this: http://www.mglavionics.com/Tach_Sender_Instructions.pdf -Rob On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Harley wrote: > Robert... > > I'm not familiar with the UMA hall effect sensor, but any that I have ever > worked with need three wires...one ground, one for power and one for the > signal. Is it possible that the case is a ground and if you have only two > wires then the one you are measuring is the power and the other the signal? > > Harley > ------------------------------ > > > my G3X system uses a Hall effect sensor (made by UMA) on the Slick magneto. I do not get a reading from this on the MFD and checked set up for proper sensor input. > > I note that there is a 10V power supplied to the sensor and it has a ground wire and I beleive a signal wire. It seems the Hall efect sensor acts as a switch and is suppposed to open the switch breaking the power with each swipe of a magnet. I tried testing this with my multimeter (analogue) and only saw a sustained 10V reading. > > Going forward with this G3X system I think I will have to test the integrety of the wiring from time to time. I would think if I put a signal down the sensor wire of 10V at some frequency reading I would eventually get a response on the RPM meter on the MFD. Then I would know that that the sensor is defective. Or, in this particular case is there some way to bench test the Hall effect switch after removal from the engine ? > > What equipment could I purchase to perform some of these minor sensor tests on glass screen systems with sensor signal tested at the wiring at the sensor or along a connector like the one I have ? Bob's book has some information on analgoue guages. What potential for damage exists from these test ? > > thanks Robert Federhofer > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
At 11:03 AM 6/3/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Very good, I will test the software with the hardware. I had >also considered using the last two inputs to control the wig-wag >interval. I have it set to 750 millisec at the moment which seems >to be a standard value for aircraft wig-wag (each light flashes >40 times per minute). The last two inputs could be used to allow >the interval to be controlled via jumpers or a switch. Yes. I think I've got the inputs configured wrong. They'd need +5 pullup resistors and I've condifigured them with voltage dividers . . . but we can work that out. >In terms of using this as a replacement for the auto flasher, I >guess the only restriction would be the maximum lamp power >limit which you are planning to define after additional hardware >testing. Correct. I'm not sure I'd recommend this set of hardware for incandescent lamps. The 3-terminal auto flasher is a really good value and well suited to the task. >Also, there was at least one other person who was interested in >software development who requested a board to use for >testing. See below... Yes. I'm packing up for a 3-day stint in Wichita to finish some bunkbeds for may grandsons. Will be back on Thursday. I'll get another board stuffed for Paul. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: NAV splitter grounded?
Date: Jun 03, 2012
I am wondering if the antenna, mounted under the all metal airframe is possibly seeing multiple images off the metal structures with phasing caused by the different paths..... D ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Kochman To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 9:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: NAV splitter grounded? Thanks, guys... I have only one nav radio, and I'm seeing jumpy needles on both the lateral (VOR and localizers) as well as glideslope. GPS needle (lateral only) is rock solid. I have this antenna: http://www.rami.com/product-view.php?pid=8. It's mounted under the horizontal stabilizer on an RV-10. Going to do more testing today. -Rob On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 08:33 PM 6/1/2012, you wrote: Quick question: Should the Comant CI-507 Nav/GS splitter (between my antenna and GNS430) be isolated from the airframe ground? Seems like the answer is "yes" but I didn't think about it when wiring my panel, and it's currently not isolated. I'm thinking this could be responsible for my "jumpy" needles. As Dave pointed out, the metallic enclosure of your splitter has continuity to ground by way of the coax shields that are tied to it through the connectors. Things that go on 'inside the wall of shields' in a feed line system is pretty much an isolated world. Just how and where the shields get tie to the airframe . . . or whether they ever get tied to airframe has no influence upon the business of getting radio frequency power from one end to the other. Are you seeing similar symptoms with more than one steering needle? Both VOR or is one of them a Glide Slope? Bob . . . ================= _ities such as List Un/Subscription, www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ======================ttp://f orums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ====================== -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ====== -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: twisted pair tefzel
At 08:40 AM 6/3/2012, you wrote: > > >Hello All- > >A while back someone was looking for twisted pair tefzel cable, and >I had thought I had some left over in the shop. As it happens, I >seem to have already given it away... as well as having lost the >contact info for the fellow in need. Sorry about that! I've got a few thousand feet of 22 tefzel shielded trio. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2012
From: fedico94(at)mchsi.com
Subject: Re: RPM Hall efforct sensor
That appears to be correct. The red wire (orange on white for this purpose is input to sensor of 10V. It has a blu/white wire for ground and a white wire for signal to the unit. I continued the sheild wire through the plug connector (4 wire--plastic. The plug holding the Hall sensor) screws into the magneto case. I could check to see if this is grounding at the magneto case. The schematic shows only the 3 wire cable sheild grounded at the ADAHRS unit only, as per Bob's teaching in his book ----- Original Message ----- From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RPM Hall efforct sensor Robert... I'm not familiar with the UMA hall effect sensor, but any that I have ever worked with need three wires...one ground, one for power and one for the signal. Is it possible that the case is a ground and if you have only two wires then the one you are measuring is the power and the other the signal? Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: fedico94(at)mchsi.com > > my G3X system uses a Hall effect sensor (made by UMA) on the Slick magneto. I do not get a reading from this on the MFD and checked set up for proper sensor input. > > I note that there is a 10V power supplied to the sensor and it has a ground wire and I beleive a signal wire. It seems the Hall efect sensor acts as a switch and is suppposed to open the switch breaking the power with each swipe of a magnet. I tried testing this with my multimeter (analogue) and only saw a sustained 10V reading. > > Going forward with this G3X system I think I will have to test the integrety of the wiring from time to time. I would think if I put a signal down the sensor wire of 10V at some frequency reading I would eventually get a response on the RPM meter on the MFD. Then I would know that that the sensor is defective. Or, in this particular case is there some way to bench test the Hall effect switch after removal from the engine ? > > What equipment could I purchase to perform some of these minor sensor tests on glass screen systems with sensor signal tested at the wiring at the sensor or along a connector like the one I have ? Bob's book has some information on analgoue guages. What potential for damage exists from these test ? > > thanks Robert Federhofer > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Mather" <peter(at)mather.com>
Subject: Century 1 Autopilot Musings
Date: Jun 04, 2012
The Century 1 autopilot is a competent wing leveller but has very basic tracking capability - however, upgrading to a higher spec aoutopilot is too expensive to contemplate. Basically all the Century 1 sees is the course deviation output from a GPS or Nav set. It has no knowledge of course, track etc. This is easily demonstrated by engaging tracking when well off course with, for example, the deviation at full scale left. The autopilot correctly turns towards the course but if the deviation stays full scale the aircraft then circles endlessly. It seems to me that a simple microprocessor program could read in the NMEA output of a GPS and artificially create a course deviation output. So for example if you are well left of track it could create a full left deviation until the aircraft has turned onto a 30degree intersection course at which point it could send a centered signal. Then when approaching the desired track it could send a right deviation to turn the aircraft onto the track. Has anyone tried playing with such an idea or can anyone point me at any algorithms that might provide a starting point? Thanks Peter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John MacCallum" <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: NAV splitter grounded?
Date: Jun 04, 2012
It will depend on the type of Antenna and where it is mounted but ordinarily it would not matter if the spacing between the Antenna and another object]is more than a qtr wave. Mulitpath and Rayleighan fading will vary constant anyway on a moving object such as an aircraft. Cheers John MacCallum Builder #41016 VH-DUU From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Lloyd Sent: Monday, 4 June 2012 3:27 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: NAV splitter grounded? I am wondering if the antenna, mounted under the all metal airframe is possibly seeing multiple images off the metal structures with phasing caused by the different paths..... D _____ ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Kochman <mailto:rv10rob(at)gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 9:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: NAV splitter grounded? Thanks, guys... I have only one nav radio, and I'm seeing jumpy needles on both the lateral (VOR and localizers) as well as glideslope. GPS needle (lateral only) is rock solid. I have this antenna: http://www.rami.com/product-view.php?pid=8. It's mounted under the horizontal stabilizer on an RV-10. Going to do more testing today. -Rob On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 08:33 PM 6/1/2012, you wrote: Quick question: Should the Comant CI-507 Nav/GS splitter (between my antenna and GNS430) be isolated from the airframe ground? Seems like the answer is "yes" but I didn't think about it when wiring my panel, and it's currently not isolated. I'm thinking this could be responsible for my "jumpy" needles. As Dave pointed out, the metallic enclosure of your splitter has continuity to ground by way of the coax shields that are tied to it through the connectors. Things that go on 'inside the wall of shields' in a feed line system is pretty much an isolated world. Just how and where the shields get tie to the airframe . . . or whether they ever get tied to airframe has no influence upon the business of getting radio frequency power from one end to the other. Are you seeing similar symptoms with more than one steering needle? Both VOR or is one of them a Glide Slope? Bob . . . ========================================== _ities such as List Un/Subscription, www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ======================ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ====================== -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =============================== -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Century 1 Autopilot Musings
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 04, 2012
Peter, As a starting point I would take a look at the ArduPilot software to see if there is an option to simplify it down to what you need. The complete autopilot functionality is there but I don't know how modular the software architecture is and if it would be difficult to simplify the functionality down to what you need. The ArduPilot hardware would be more than you need but you could configure a stripped down hardware version using Arduino boards for the reduced functionality. If you want to leave room for adding more functions you could go with the $199 full hardware configuration and add more autopilot functions in the future. In any case the software is freely available for you to take a look at the algorithms needed for your application. Somewhere in there is an algorithm for course following. I have not looked at the software and documentation so I don't know how hard it would be to do what I am suggesting. Here is a starting point that will lead you to more info. http://www.diydrones.com/notes/ArduPilot Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374673#374673 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: NAV splitter grounded?
From: "Martymason" <captainmarty(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Jun 04, 2012
Rob, If you only have one NAV receiver connected to the splitter, then the second leg of the splitter is open and is not terminated. This condition will result in reflected signals at the connected receiver and may result in your jumpy needles. I would remove the un-needed splitter and connect the antenna directly to the receiver using a BNC-BNC connector. If the jumpiness disapears then problem solved. Marty Mason Retired CATV engineer (Much work with antennas and co-axial cable networks) -------- Marty Mason Europa XS Mono 10% Norcross, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374689#374689 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in a 9lb battery/jumpstart kit?
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Jun 04, 2012
Hi Sam Sorry, but I misplaced your E-mail address and couldn't find it on a Aeroelectric search. Could not find your phone number in a Google search. Anyway I sent off your two jump start kits today with an expected delivery 06-05-2012. If by chance you don't receive a day or two after that, please E-mail or call me. Ron Parigoreis Hm 631-979-7675 (OK till 9PM) Cell 631-839-3636 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374715#374715 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2012
From: Sam Marlow <sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in a 9lb battery/jumpstart
kit? Thanks Ron! Sam 513-482-1233 rparigoris wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rparigoris" > > Hi Sam > > Sorry, but I misplaced your E-mail address and couldn't find it on a Aeroelectric search. Could not find your phone number in a Google search. > > Anyway I sent off your two jump start kits today with an expected delivery 06-05-2012. > > If by chance you don't receive a day or two after that, please E-mail or call me. > > Ron Parigoreis > Hm 631-979-7675 (OK till 9PM) > Cell 631-839-3636 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374715#374715 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 05, 2012
From: D L Josephson <dlj04(at)josephson.com>
Subject: Re: NAV splitter grounded?
Rob Kochman wrote > Thanks, guys... I have only one nav radio, and I'm seeing jumpy needles on > both the lateral (VOR and localizers) as well as glideslope. GPS needle > (lateral only) is rock solid. I have this antenna: > http://www.rami.com/product-view.php?pid=8. It's mounted under the > horizontal stabilizer on an RV-10. Going to do more testing today. Can you provide a little more info on "jumpy needles?" Are you getting this in a place where the signals from the VOR or localizer and the glideslope are expected to be strong? If you fly the whole ILS, at some point (certainly before you reach the outer marker) both of these signals should be big enough to swamp any sort of interference in the airplane. Do you hear any unusual noises in the VOR/LOC audio? Someone suggested getting rid of the splitter but of course you need that to feed the glideslope receiver. As Bob suggested, there's not likely to be a grounding or ground loop issue no matter where the coax is grounded, but there can be lots of other problems. -- David Josephson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in a 9lb battery/jumpstart
kit?
Date: Jun 05, 2012
> > Anyway I sent off your two jump start kits today with an expected delivery 06-05-2012. Ron, Do you have a projected shipping schedule for the remainder of the orders? Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Mather" <peter(at)mather.com>
Subject: Re: Century 1 Autopilot Musings
Date: Jun 05, 2012
Greg Thanks for the link - I'll study it and see where it gets me.I've home built Arduino based circuits before so this looks a good start Best Regards Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 5:13 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Century 1 Autopilot Musings > > Peter, > > As a starting point I would take a look at the ArduPilot software to > see if there is an option to simplify it down to what you need. The > complete autopilot functionality is there but I don't know how > modular the software architecture is and if it would be difficult > to simplify the functionality down to what you need. The ArduPilot > hardware would be more than you need but you could configure > a stripped down hardware version using Arduino boards for > the reduced functionality. > > If you want to leave room for adding more functions you could go > with the $199 full hardware configuration and add more autopilot > functions in the future. In any case the software is freely available for > you to take a look at the algorithms needed for your application. > Somewhere in there is an algorithm for course following. > I have not looked at the software and documentation so I don't > know how hard it would be to do what I am suggesting. Here is > a starting point that will lead you to more info. > > http://www.diydrones.com/notes/ArduPilot > > Greg McHugh > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374673#374673 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 05, 2012
Subject: Re: NAV splitter grounded?
From: Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com>
Thanks, David... I need to do more testing before I can be sure of too much. It seems to be better closer to the station, though it's sometimes still jumpy fairly close to the station. It also seems to be worse in rain and clouds. Here's a video that shows an example halfway down an ILS. In this one, the localizer is stable, but the glideslope is moving around. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkClTxpcPB8 I'll report back more info when I have it. I do appreciate the help. -Rob On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 12:58 AM, D L Josephson wrote: > dlj04(at)josephson.com> > > Rob Kochman> wrote > > Thanks, guys... I have only one nav radio, and I'm seeing jumpy needles >> on >> both the lateral (VOR and localizers) as well as glideslope. GPS needle >> (lateral only) is rock solid. I have this antenna: >> http://www.rami.com/product-**view.php?pid=8>. >> It's mounted under the >> horizontal stabilizer on an RV-10. Going to do more testing today. >> > > Can you provide a little more info on "jumpy needles?" Are you getting > this in a place where the signals from the VOR or localizer and the > glideslope are expected to be strong? If you fly the whole ILS, at some > point (certainly before you reach the outer marker) both of these signals > should be big enough to swamp any sort of interference in the airplane. Do > you hear any unusual noises in the VOR/LOC audio? Someone suggested getting > rid of the splitter but of course you need that to feed the glideslope > receiver. As Bob suggested, there's not likely to be a grounding or ground > loop issue no matter where the coax is grounded, but there can be lots of > other problems. > > -- > David Josephson > > -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 05, 2012
Subject: 9lb battery/jumpstart kits, all orders shipped except
three orders I received over the last few days.
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Roger All orders have been shipped except for three I received over the last few days. Those will ship within the next week. Your order has a scheduled delivery 06-06-2012. I will be sending out a second round of particulars within the hour. Ron Parigoris CURTIS" > > >> >> Anyway I sent off your two jump start kits today with an expected >> delivery > 06-05-2012. > > Ron, > > Do you have a projected shipping schedule for the remainder of > the orders? > > Roger > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: Century 1 Autopilot Musings
Porcine Associates, principal Jim Ham, makes JUST such a device! Paul On 6/4/2012 1:14 AM, Peter Mather wrote: > > > The Century 1 autopilot is a competent wing leveller but has very > basic tracking capability - however, upgrading to a higher spec > aoutopilot is too expensive to contemplate. Basically all the Century > 1 sees is the course deviation output from a GPS or Nav set. It has no > knowledge of course, track etc. This is easily demonstrated by > engaging tracking when well off course with, for example, the > deviation at full scale left. The autopilot correctly turns towards > the course but if the deviation stays full scale the aircraft then > circles endlessly. > > It seems to me that a simple microprocessor program could read in the > NMEA output of a GPS and artificially create a course deviation > output. So for example if you are well left of track it could create a > full left deviation until the aircraft has turned onto a 30degree > intersection course at which point it could send a centered signal. > Then when approaching the desired track it could send a right > deviation to turn the aircraft onto the track. > > Has anyone tried playing with such an idea or can anyone point me at > any algorithms that might provide a starting point? > > Thanks > > Peter > > -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 2012
From: D L Josephson <dlj04(at)josephson.com>
Subject: Re: NAV splitter grounded?
On 6/5/12 11:56 PM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: NAV splitter grounded? > From: Rob Kochman<rv10rob(at)gmail.com> > > Thanks, David... I need to do more testing before I can be sure of too > much. It seems to be better closer to the station, though it's sometimes > still jumpy fairly close to the station. It also seems to be worse in rain > and clouds. Here's a video that shows an example halfway down an ILS. In > this one, the localizer is stable, but the glideslope is moving around. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkClTxpcPB8 It almost looks to me as though the integration time on the Dynon is too fast. Is there a way to slow it down so the variations are damped a little better? It's helpful to be able to listen to the LOC and GS signals in real time. What GS receiver are you using? You may be able to hear whether the signal is just weak (high level of hiss relative to the 90 and 150 Hz LOC/GS modulation) or if there are some periodic noises that you can correlate with strobes, wig-wag, alternator whine, ignition noise, etc. -- David Josephson ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 06, 2012
Bob, Hardware arrived in the mail today. I should have some test results by the end of the week. Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374894#374894 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CardinalNSB(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 06, 2012
Subject: battery kits
Are people getting the takeout battery kits? Satisfied? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 2012
From: Linda Walker <l.p(at)talk21.com>
Subject: VMS capacitance fuel probes
Is anyone aware of a compatible capacitance fuel probe for the Vision Micro systems product? One of mine is no longer working. Any help much appreciated. Patrick Elliott, Long-EZ, G-LGEZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Subject: VMS capacitance fuel probes
Date: Jun 07, 2012
Patrick, If you mean "familiar with", yes lots of us use them. I use the Dynon display rather than the VM display, but the capacitance senders are the same. Some things to check... 1. Connections to the senders. Assuming you have the 3 wire tube type, remove and check all connections for continuity and resistance. They may have loosened or the ground quality has lessened over time. Be sure none of the connectors have failed or is somehow compromised. A common problem. 2. Check the out voltage on the white wire (sender signal) and see if the coincides with the voltage recorded when you did your calibration. You should have that written down somewhere. 3. If all that checks out, it's probably the VM display. Internally (my converter is external) they convert the capacitance voltage to dc voltage which is how the unit reads the value. When you do your test you will be reading the capacitance voltage which will need to be converted to dc voltage to verify. If you need an external capacitance voltage converter, let me know - there is a guy in Texas that makes them. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linda Walker Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 11:11 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: VMS capacitance fuel probes Is anyone aware of a compatible capacitance fuel probe for the Vision Microsystems product? One of mine is no longer working. Any help much appreciated. Patrick Elliott, Long-EZ, G-LGEZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Mather" <peter(at)mather.com>
Subject: Century 1 Autopilot Musings
Date: Jun 07, 2012
Perfect - thanks! -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Millner Sent: 05 June 2012 05:31 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Century 1 Autopilot Musings Porcine Associates, principal Jim Ham, makes JUST such a device! Paul On 6/4/2012 1:14 AM, Peter Mather wrote: > > > The Century 1 autopilot is a competent wing leveller but has very > basic tracking capability - however, upgrading to a higher spec > aoutopilot is too expensive to contemplate. Basically all the Century > 1 sees is the course deviation output from a GPS or Nav set. It has no > knowledge of course, track etc. This is easily demonstrated by > engaging tracking when well off course with, for example, the > deviation at full scale left. The autopilot correctly turns towards > the course but if the deviation stays full scale the aircraft then > circles endlessly. > > It seems to me that a simple microprocessor program could read in the > NMEA output of a GPS and artificially create a course deviation > output. So for example if you are well left of track it could create a > full left deviation until the aircraft has turned onto a 30degree > intersection course at which point it could send a centered signal. > Then when approaching the desired track it could send a right > deviation to turn the aircraft onto the track. > > Has anyone tried playing with such an idea or can anyone point me at > any algorithms that might provide a starting point? > > Thanks > > Peter > > -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 07, 2012
Bob, Had a chance to power-up the proof of concept board you sent and it seems to be working fine with my current software version which I updated to reflect the final hardware I/O configuration for the board. I will do some more testing tomorrow and then I will send out some flashed PIC chips to you. I have the wig-wag logic set to switch every 666 millisec (45 per minute flash rate) which seems to be a typical rate for certified wig-wag flashers. If you want a different value let me know. I will post the final software version I used to flash the chips. How many chips should I send to you? Should I send them to the home address that was on the parcel you sent or to the P.O. box for Aeroelectric? Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374953#374953 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
At 01:17 PM 6/7/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Had a chance to power-up the proof of concept board you sent and >it seems to be working fine with my current software version which >I updated to reflect the final hardware I/O configuration for the >board. I will do some more testing tomorrow and then I will send out >some flashed PIC chips to you. I have the wig-wag logic set >to switch every 666 millisec (45 per minute flash rate) which seems >to be a typical rate for certified wig-wag flashers. If you want a >different value let me know. I will post the final software version I >used to flash the chips. > >How many chips should I send to you? > >Should I send them to the home address that was on the parcel >you sent or to the P.O. box for Aeroelectric? One chip will suffice. The P.O. box is the place to go. I forget, were you planning to use this device on your airplane . . . or just willing to thrash bytes for grins? We might talk about modifying the code (and the boards) to use the extra two inputs as flash-rate selection pins. I think I'd move the command lines over to the filtered pins now 'rigged for analog' and use the two unfiltered pins for flash rate selection. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 07, 2012
Bob, I am planning to use it in the Xenos motor glider I am building but I am probably a year away from the point where I will need it. I think I will stick with the single flash rate on my installation but variable rate seems to be a popular option on many of the certified wig-wag systems. If you want the initial software to support the variable flash rate on the wig-wag I can handle that. Let me know how you want to configure the changes to the inputs. Is the board you sent me already set up to handle this with the way it is configured? I can add the two other input lines to the test harness you sent. I would think that three rate settings would be enough, maybe 45 flashes per minute for the default rate, and then 90 and 120 flashes for higher rates. That would be the flash rate for each of the lamps, alternating lamps to get the wig-wag. I would think that 3 rate settings would be enough using the same type of switch you have on the other set of inputs. I can test a software version with the variable rate before I send it to you if the board can handle it. I think I mentioned before that the only other option I thought of would be for aircraft that have both taxi and landing lights and that want to have the option to run with just the taxi lights on the ground but still use the taxi lights in the wig-wag mode in the air. You could configure the two control inputs to handle 4 modes using the current switch for Off-Taxi Only-Both On and a second switch for Wig-Wag (ground both the inputs). Not something I need for my needs but I can imagine someone wanting this option. Just a software change needed and adding the second switch. Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374969#374969 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 2012
Subject: Re: battery kits
From: Bill <wtrooper(at)gmail.com>
Yes - I got two kits, intact and as advertized. Shipping took two days from NY to CA. Never met Ron nor done business with him before - I would buy stuff from him anytime. Bill SF bay area On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 7:30 PM, wrote: > ** > Are people getting the takeout battery kits? Satisfied? > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2012
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Bi-ennial transponder/encoder/static certifications
In reading 91.411 and 91.413, it says the manufacturer of the airplane can perform the tests. Since I built my 6A, I'm thinking that I cando the tests myself and make the logbook entry. Testing the transponder codes might be the difficult part - but I have already built the test equipment and tested the Pitot-static system and verified the altitude goung to the transponder is correct. Thoughts please, Ralph ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 06/07/12
Date: Jun 08, 2012
only intermittent access to e-mail until June 19th, in an urgent matter contact info(at)lastfrontierheli.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2012
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Bi-ennial transponder/encoder/static
certifications Thanks - I figured there would be some weasel-wording in there. Since I have already done most of the tests, I have a high confidence level in taking it to a 'certified' shop. Good scoop! -----Original Message----- >From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> >Sent: Jun 8, 2012 10:22 AM >To: avionics-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Bi-ennial transponder/encoder/static certifications > >--> Avionics-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen > >A common misconception. Yes you built your aircraft. That does not make >you a "manufacturer" in the terms of these regulations. >You need the transponder certified by someone with a repair station >license. There is no certification of the pitot system, only the static >system. The only reason the pitot is connected to the test is to protect >your airspeed indicator from an excessive pressure difference with the >static port. >You can leak test your static system if you ever need to open it between >the required certifications, and that is legal, but the certification >must be done by an appropriately rated repair station. >Kelly McMullen >A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor > >On 6/8/2012 6:46 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote: >> --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" >> >> In reading 91.411 and 91.413, it says the manufacturer of the airplane can perform the tests. >> >> Since I built my 6A, I'm thinking that I cando the tests myself and make the logbook entry. >> >> Testing the transponder codes might be the difficult part - but I have already built the test equipment and tested the Pitot-static system and verified the altitude goung to the transponder is correct. >> >> Thoughts please, >> Ralph >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 9lb battery/jumpstart kits, all orders shipped
except three orders I received over the last few days.
Date: Jun 08, 2012
All orders have been shipped except for three I received over the last few days. Those will ship within the next week. Your order has a scheduled delivery 06-06-2012. I will be sending out a second round of particulars within the hour. Ron Parigoris Received my 2 batteries. They arrived in good condition, and as specified. I ran a capacity check on one of the batteries, after a top off with my Schumacher SC600A charger/maintainer, and found that connecting a 65 W headlamp gave me an average current slightly under 5 Amps. At this load the battery reached 10V, and dropping fast, at about 1hr 45min. A quick calculation gave me about 8AH of capacity. I don't have the spec sheet for this battery but a random 17AH battery spec sheet shows in the vicinity of 11 to 12AH at this current level. I have not run a capacity check with a current drain of less than 1amp, as they normally do to calculate the published capacity, but assume that it will increase considerably. Don't misinterpret my results as saying I am disappointed. To the contrary, these $10 batteries are more than ample for my extensive ground testing that I will be doing over the next several months. As far as I am concerned, It was an excellent deal, and THANK YOU RON for making this available to us at no profit to yourself, just a lot of work. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 9 lb battery/jumpstart kits
I ran a capacity check on one of the batteries, after a top off with my Schumacher SC600A charger/maintainer, and found that connecting a 65 W headlamp gave me an average current slightly under 5 Amps. At this load the battery reached 10V, and dropping fast, at about 1hr 45min. A quick calculation gave me about 8AH of capacity. I don't have the spec sheet for this battery but a random 17AH battery spec sheet shows in the vicinity of 11 to 12AH at this current level. I have not run a capacity check with a current drain of less than 1 amp, as they normally do to calculate the published capacity, but assume that it will increase considerably. Don't misinterpret my results as saying I am disappointed. To the contrary, these $10 batteries are more than ample for my extensive ground testing that I will be doing over the next several months. As far as I am concerned, It was an excellent deal, and THANK YOU RON for making this available to us at no profit to yourself, just a lot of work. I think we had some discussions about these batteries when Ron firs wrote about them on the List. Given their light weight in comparison to the garden variety 17 a.h. devices, it was surmised that these batteries were either labeled in either in error or as a product of wishful thinking. Older lead acid technologies ran about .8 a.h. per pound with modern SVLA versions running in the 1.1 a.h. per pound of finished weight. So your experimental results are consistent with the weight. I have two on order . . . are probably at the post office waiting for me. When the grandson wakes up from his nap, well go get 'em. I get out the WMR cap meter and plot some curves on them. Agreed, Ron's dedication to keeping perfectly good batteries out of the recycle stream and into the hands of potential users is commendable! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: 9 lb battery/jumpstart kits
Greetings, One of the batteries I ordered was smashed on one corner when It arrived. A little feeling around revealed a space about 1" deep on the bottom of the battery. That might account for the weight. :) Glad to get them and the other misc parts. If someone comes up with a cartoon on how to hook the parts up it would save a lot of work for people like me. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. On 06/08/2012 03:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > I ran a capacity check on one of the batteries, after a top off with my > Schumacher SC600A charger/maintainer, and found that connecting a 65 W > headlamp gave me an average current slightly under 5 Amps. At this load > the battery reached 10V, and dropping fast, at about 1hr 45min. A quick > calculation gave me about 8AH of capacity. I don't have the spec sheet > for this battery but a random 17AH battery spec sheet shows in the > vicinity of 11 to 12AH at this current level. I have not run a capacity > check with a current drain of less than 1 amp, as they normally do to > calculate the published capacity, but assume that it will increase > considerably. > > Don't misinterpret my results as saying I am disappointed. To the > contrary, these $10 batteries are more than ample for my extensive > ground testing that I will be doing over the next several months. > > As far as I am concerned, It was an excellent deal, and THANK YOU RON > for making this available to us at no profit to yourself, just a lot of > work. > > > I think we had some discussions about these batteries > when Ron firs wrote about them on the List. Given their > light weight in comparison to the garden variety 17 a.h. > devices, it was surmised that these batteries were either > labeled in either in error or as a product of wishful > thinking. Older lead acid technologies ran about .8 a.h. > per pound with modern SVLA versions running in the 1.1 > a.h. per pound of finished weight. So your experimental > results are consistent with the weight. > > I have two on order . . . are probably at the post office > waiting for me. When the grandson wakes up from his nap, well > go get 'em. I get out the WMR cap meter and plot some curves > on them. > > Agreed, Ron's dedication to keeping perfectly good batteries > out of the recycle stream and into the hands of potential > users is commendable! > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 9 lb battery/jumpstart kits
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Jun 08, 2012
Hi Raymond Hmm, I sent this through my ISP an hour and a half ago but it never posted? Here it goes again through Matronics: "how to hook the parts" Here is some insight to the 9 pound batteries: **At a 1/10C discharge, capacity is not far off from a 9aH battery. They weigh about 9 pounds. A 17 or 18aH battery with approximately the same dimensions but really has 17 or 18aH capacity is 13 or more pounds. The best deal we found for the purchase of 500 batteries was 30$ each and we had to pay for shipping. There is nothing wrong with the 9aH batteries except they are 9aHs. **The 9aH batteries are very happy being charged with the supplied charger which is a constant current charger and turns off at ~14.5 volts. They are pretty happy being charged at a 1,000mA rate, so if you parallel two of the supplied chargers, that works fine or I my Yuasa (battery tender rip off) charger 1,000 mA charger. We have a 3,000mA three stage charger and it kinda works, it sometimes will not give as good a charge as the 500 mA or 1,000mA charger. I find that after charging and waiting a day, if you have `13 volts ar so the battery is fully charged. Sometimes the 3,000mA charger does not get the battery to that level. **If you allow the battery to fall below 50% charge state and sit there for a while (12.4 volts) it can get hurt. I found that the very best way to bring a battery that got hurt back to life is to use the 500mA charger and charge control board and let it peak (red LED turns off meaning that it reached at least ~ 14.5 volts). Then connect the battery directly to the 500mA transformer and chase the voltage till it gets to 15.5 volts and turn it off. We have saved batteries in the field by doing this countless times. We are talking it may take a few days in a bad case battery to get to 15.5 volts. As far as hooking up the chargers, it is very simple. Connect a source (2 wires) and connect output (2 wires) to the battery. INPUT: There are two ways to hook up the input, from the back of the board or the front. To hook up from the back, hook up the transformer positive (black wire with white stripe) to the tail of a wire (black wire with white stripe) and do the same with the negative wires. Some transformers are already connected, some were cut off.Or you can connect the input through the front side of the control board. i supplied a wire with athe proper connector attached to it to fit the female recepticle on the front of the board. Connect positive to black wire (with white stripe) and negative to the black wire. You can use the supplied transformer, or you can use a 12 volt source. Note you will not get a full charge from a static 12 volt battery, but can get close from a running vehicle. There was a male cigarette plug that came connected to this wire. OK now for the output, this is the side that connects to your battery.. Connect red to the positive of the battery and black to the negative of the battery. Solder or use a clip to connect to the positive bus on the board: R3, R2,D4,R6,R7 and connect to the positive of the battery. Solder or clip to the negative bus. It is the three holes to the right of the R5 resistor and connect to the negative of the battery. When the LED D3 is on and the battery is connected, you are charging, when the Red LED D3 goes off the battery is charged (it means it peaked at ~ 14.5 volts). Now you can disconnect your battery. NOTE, if you put another discharged battery on the charger it will not begin a charge cycle until you disconnect the input power for at least a few seconds to unlatch a latched holding relay. Give it a try for yourself, put a battery on charge and get the Red LED to come on. Now disconnect an output lead and you will hear a click and the Red LED will go off. If you reconnect the output lead the Red LED will remain off. Now leaving the output connected to the control board, disconnect the input power for a few seconds. You will hear a click and see the LED flash shortly. Now reconnect the input power and you will again see the RED is on. Good Luck! Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375058#375058 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 9 lb battery/jumpstart kits
At 03:55 PM 6/8/2012, you wrote: > >Greetings, > >One of the batteries I ordered was smashed on one corner when It >arrived. A little feeling around revealed a space about 1" deep on >the bottom of the battery. That might account for the weight. :) Interesting. I would have guessed that these batteries are something like a 12 a.h. battery running around in 17 a.h. clothing! I've got #1 battery on 1A discharge test now. #2 battery is back on the charger after having dumped 180A @ 9V for 15 seconds in a cranking test. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: 9 lb battery/jumpstart kits
That's what I needed, thanks Ron. Will treating larger 12V lead acid batteries with the 15.5v voltage do the same thing as far as restoring some life to them? I assume it will but I figured I'd ask. Later, Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 06/08/2012 07:51 PM, rparigoris wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rparigoris" > > Hi Raymond > > Hmm, I sent this through my ISP an hour and a half ago but it never posted? Here it goes again through Matronics: > > "how to hook the parts" > > Here is some insight to the 9 pound batteries: > > **At a 1/10C discharge, capacity is not far off from a 9aH battery. They weigh about 9 pounds. A 17 or 18aH battery with approximately the same dimensions but really has 17 or 18aH capacity is 13 or more pounds. The best deal we found for the purchase of 500 batteries was 30$ each and we had to pay for shipping. There is nothing wrong with the 9aH batteries except they are 9aHs. > > **The 9aH batteries are very happy being charged with the supplied charger which is a constant current charger and turns off at ~14.5 volts. They are pretty happy being charged at a 1,000mA rate, so if you parallel two of the supplied chargers, that works fine or I my Yuasa (battery tender rip off) charger 1,000 mA charger. We have a 3,000mA three stage charger and it kinda works, it sometimes will not give as good a charge as the 500 mA or 1,000mA charger. I find that after charging and waiting a day, if you have `13 volts ar so the battery is fully charged. Sometimes the 3,000mA charger does not get the battery to that level. > > **If you allow the battery to fall below 50% charge state and sit there for a while (12.4 volts) it can get hurt. I found that the very best way to bring a battery that got hurt back to life is to use the 500mA charger and charge control board and let it peak (red LED turns off meaning that it reached at least ~ 14.5 volts). Then connect the battery directly to the 500mA transformer and chase the voltage till it gets to 15.5 volts and turn it off. We have saved batteries in the field by doing this countless times. We are talking it may take a few days in a bad case battery to get to 15.5 volts. > > As far as hooking up the chargers, it is very simple. > > Connect a source (2 wires) and connect output (2 wires) to the battery. > > INPUT: > > There are two ways to hook up the input, from the back of the board or the front. To hook up from the back, hook up the transformer positive (black wire with white stripe) to the tail of a wire (black wire with white stripe) and do the same with the negative wires. Some transformers are already connected, some were cut off.Or you can connect the input through the front side of the control board. i supplied a wire with athe proper connector attached to it to fit the female recepticle on the front of the board. Connect positive to black wire (with white stripe) and negative to the black wire. You can use the supplied transformer, or you can use a 12 volt source. Note you will not get a full charge from a static 12 volt battery, but can get close from a running vehicle. There was a male cigarette plug that came connected to this wire. > > OK now for the output, this is the side that connects to your battery.. > > Connect red to the positive of the battery and black to the negative of the battery. > > Solder or use a clip to connect to the positive bus on the board: R3, R2,D4,R6,R7 and connect to the positive of the battery. > > Solder or clip to the negative bus. It is the three holes to the right of the R5 resistor and connect to the negative of the battery. > > When the LED D3 is on and the battery is connected, you are charging, when the Red LED D3 goes off the battery is charged (it means it peaked at ~ 14.5 volts). Now you can disconnect your battery. > > NOTE, if you put another discharged battery on the charger it will not begin a charge cycle until you disconnect the input power for at least a few seconds to unlatch a latched holding relay. Give it a try for yourself, put a battery on charge and get the Red LED to come on. Now disconnect an output lead and you will hear a click and the Red LED will go off. If you reconnect the output lead the Red LED will remain off. Now leaving the output connected to the control board, disconnect the input power for a few seconds. You will hear a click and see the LED flash shortly. Now reconnect the input power and you will again see the RED is on. > > Good Luck! > > Ron Parigoris > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375058#375058 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: 9 lb battery/jumpstart kits
Ron, any recommendations on using the 15 amp breaker? I was just looking over the charger boards and noticed one of the resistor leads got clipped when the wires were being cut. It's the end of R3 by where the red wire was cut. It would be easy to over look. Just an FYI in case someone has a problem. Later, Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 06/08/2012 09:51 PM, rayj wrote: > > That's what I needed, thanks Ron. > > Will treating larger 12V lead acid batteries with the 15.5v voltage do > the same thing as far as restoring some life to them? I assume it will > but I figured I'd ask. > > Later, > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > On 06/08/2012 07:51 PM, rparigoris wrote: >> "rparigoris" >> >> Hi Raymond >> >> Hmm, I sent this through my ISP an hour and a half ago but it never >> posted? Here it goes again through Matronics: >> >> "how to hook the parts" >> >> Here is some insight to the 9 pound batteries: >> >> **At a 1/10C discharge, capacity is not far off from a 9aH battery. >> They weigh about 9 pounds. A 17 or 18aH battery with approximately the >> same dimensions but really has 17 or 18aH capacity is 13 or more >> pounds. The best deal we found for the purchase of 500 batteries was >> 30$ each and we had to pay for shipping. There is nothing wrong with >> the 9aH batteries except they are 9aHs. >> >> **The 9aH batteries are very happy being charged with the supplied >> charger which is a constant current charger and turns off at ~14.5 >> volts. They are pretty happy being charged at a 1,000mA rate, so if >> you parallel two of the supplied chargers, that works fine or I my >> Yuasa (battery tender rip off) charger 1,000 mA charger. We have a >> 3,000mA three stage charger and it kinda works, it sometimes will not >> give as good a charge as the 500 mA or 1,000mA charger. I find that >> after charging and waiting a day, if you have `13 volts ar so the >> battery is fully charged. Sometimes the 3,000mA charger does not get >> the battery to that level. >> >> **If you allow the battery to fall below 50% charge state and sit >> there for a while (12.4 volts) it can get hurt. I found that the very >> best way to bring a battery that got hurt back to life is to use the >> 500mA charger and charge control board and let it peak (red LED turns >> off meaning that it reached at least ~ 14.5 volts). Then connect the >> battery directly to the 500mA transformer and chase the voltage till >> it gets to 15.5 volts and turn it off. We have saved batteries in the >> field by doing this countless times. We are talking it may take a few >> days in a bad case battery to get to 15.5 volts. >> >> As far as hooking up the chargers, it is very simple. >> >> Connect a source (2 wires) and connect output (2 wires) to the battery. >> >> INPUT: >> >> There are two ways to hook up the input, from the back of the board or >> the front. To hook up from the back, hook up the transformer positive >> (black wire with white stripe) to the tail of a wire (black wire with >> white stripe) and do the same with the negative wires. Some >> transformers are already connected, some were cut off.Or you can >> connect the input through the front side of the control board. i >> supplied a wire with athe proper connector attached to it to fit the >> female recepticle on the front of the board. Connect positive to black >> wire (with white stripe) and negative to the black wire. You can use >> the supplied transformer, or you can use a 12 volt source. Note you >> will not get a full charge from a static 12 volt battery, but can get >> close from a running vehicle. There was a male cigarette plug that >> came connected to this wire. >> >> OK now for the output, this is the side that connects to your battery.. >> >> Connect red to the positive of the battery and black to the negative >> of the battery. >> >> Solder or use a clip to connect to the positive bus on the board: R3, >> R2,D4,R6,R7 and connect to the positive of the battery. >> >> Solder or clip to the negative bus. It is the three holes to the right >> of the R5 resistor and connect to the negative of the battery. >> >> When the LED D3 is on and the battery is connected, you are charging, >> when the Red LED D3 goes off the battery is charged (it means it >> peaked at ~ 14.5 volts). Now you can disconnect your battery. >> >> NOTE, if you put another discharged battery on the charger it will not >> begin a charge cycle until you disconnect the input power for at least >> a few seconds to unlatch a latched holding relay. Give it a try for >> yourself, put a battery on charge and get the Red LED to come on. Now >> disconnect an output lead and you will hear a click and the Red LED >> will go off. If you reconnect the output lead the Red LED will remain >> off. Now leaving the output connected to the control board, disconnect >> the input power for a few seconds. You will hear a click and see the >> LED flash shortly. Now reconnect the input power and you will again >> see the RED is on. >> >> Good Luck! >> >> Ron Parigoris >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375058#375058 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2012
Subject: Re: 9 lb battery/jumpstart kits
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Raymond "> Will treating larger 12V lead acid batteries with the 15.5v voltage do > the same thing as far as restoring some life to them? I assume it will > but I figured I'd ask." Off the cuff I would say it could perhaps help, but all lead batteries are not created equal. I tried putting two 500mA transformers on the 9 pound batteries (no charge controller) because it took so long to reach 15.5 with one, but didn't like the noises that started to come out from the battery. Perhaps Ok but if quiet I could hear a bubbling. I know that some chargers have a pulse or de-sulfated boost cycle, but all batteries probably do not react the same. Bob N., what secrets have you found for helping to bring back a battery that has either been left below 50% for a while? Ron Parigoris BTW, when I was a young kid (9-12) making electric 2, 3 and 4 wheeled vehicles, the batteries we used for the most part were used batteries from my parents cars that were no longer very reliable. Dad and I would empty out the acid, hand cut them apart with a large wood saw, scoop out the white goop that collected in the bottom and hit the plates with a brush and garden hose cleaning off white goop. Reassemble with some black tar type sealant and refill with acid. If we were lucky we would have fresh acid mix, but more often than not we would charge the batteries first, and we would use only the acid from cells that would take a charge according to the hydrometer. We would drill holes in the batteries so we could screw hardware in the bus so we could charge the good cells together. There were only some 12 volt batteries we could do this with. More 6 volt cells were happier to be dissected. The best success I ever had was putting together a 7 cell battery made from 6 volt batteries (dissected and de-sulfated) on a three wheeled vehicle that fit under our workbench using a 12 volt Ford starter motor. The secret was the motor cooling, I used a 1 gallon milk jug with a few small holes that leaked water on the motor to keep it cool enough to get some time on it. 8 cells would burn things up even with cooling after a short time, but because it drew more amps, distance was quite a bit shorter than 7 cells with not much extra speed. 7 cells was pretty exciting. 5 cells and regearing would give greatest distance, but at grandma speed. In order to easily charge these odd number of cells with either a 6 or 12 volt charger, I would always have some spare cells hanging around. These were abtteries that I would only leave 1 cell left but leave the rest of the battery case that was terrific to put all model aeroplane flying gear in. A mutilated solenoid from a copier was wound to make the perfect resistor so i didn't burn up the 1.5 volt glow plugs. I had various loads where i woulod discharge all cells close to each other so I could charge in series with reasonable success. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Lead Crystal Batteries, does anybody have any experience?
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Jun 08, 2012
Does anyone have any experience with Lead Crystal batteries that they claim you can cycle to 100% discharge?: http://www.bettabatteries.com/ Supposedly we have a potential customer for Solar Charging Stations that purchased 200 amp, 100 amp and 18 amp 12 volt samples so we can compare side by side to what we are using. This company is located in South Africa. The batteries are close to ready for shipment to us, but are coming from China. I am very skeptical about outrageous claims, especially when they come from a Battery Mfg. in China. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375077#375077 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2012
Subject: Re: 9 lb battery/jumpstart kits
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Raymond "> Ron, any recommendations on using the 15 amp breaker?" "> I was just looking over the charger boards and noticed one of the > resistor leads got clipped when the wires were being cut. It's the end > of R3 by where the red wire was cut. It would be easy to over look. > Just an FYI in case someone has a problem." Hi Raymond. Thx. for the heads up on cut resistor. I have not seen one of them cut. There were four guys who disassembled the 500 plus packs. Out of probably a hundred charge boards i have set up, one left the red LED on all the time, and one smoked a 3 legged component. Other than that they all worked. The 15 amp resettable breaker was in series with a 12 volt female cigarette style receptacle, so that would be a good choice. The most useful thing I have used these batteries for is turning a cordless Dewalt drill into a corded drill. You need to use pretty thick wires so as to not get too much of a voltage drop.: https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=550FC20DBDDB521D!694&authkey=!APwe6830ArzXncc I just used 2 conductors and ground in parallel on the cord we had hanging around. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: Lead Crystal Batteries, does anybody have any experience?
Date: Jun 08, 2012
Googled "Lead Crystal Batteries". Lots of interesting information... -john- > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On > Behalf Of rparigoris > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 9:10 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lead Crystal Batteries, does > anybody have any experience? > > --> > > Does anyone have any experience with Lead Crystal batteries > that they claim you can cycle to 100% discharge?: > http://www.bettabatteries.com/ > > Supposedly we have a potential customer for Solar Charging > Stations that purchased 200 amp, 100 amp and 18 amp 12 volt > samples so we can compare side by side to what we are using. > > This company is located in South Africa. The batteries are > close to ready for shipment to us, but are coming from China. > > I am very skeptical about outrageous claims, especially when > they come from a Battery Mfg. in China. > > Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 06/08/12
Date: Jun 09, 2012
only intermittent access to e-mail until June 19th, in an urgent matter contact info(at)lastfrontierheli.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bakerocb" <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Bi-ennial transponder/encoder/static certifications
Date: Jun 09, 2012
6/9/2012 Hello Ralph Capen, Kelly McMullen has given you some good words on this subject, but I would like to clarify one point. Kelly wrote: "You can leak test your static system if you ever need to open it between the required certifications, and that is legal, ......" This is true only if you meet one of the qualification requirements listed in paragraph 91.411 (b). See a copy of that paragraph below: "91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and inspections. (a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled airspace under IFR unless- (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter; (2) Except for the use of system drain and alternate static pressure valves, following any opening and closing of the static pressure system, that system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with paragraph (a), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter; and (3) Following installation or maintenance on the automatic pressure altitude reporting system of the ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter. (b) The tests required by paragraph (a) of this section must be conducted by- (1) The manufacturer of the airplane, or helicopter, on which the tests and inspections are to be performed; (2) A certificated repair station properly equipped to perform those functions and holding- (i) An instrument rating, Class I; (ii) A limited instrument rating appropriate to the make and model of appliance to be tested; (iii) A limited rating appropriate to the test to be performed; (iv) An airframe rating appropriate to the airplane, or helicopter, to be tested; or (3) A certificated mechanic with an airframe rating (static pressure system tests and inspections only)." Note that holding only a Repairman's Certificate for a specific experimental amateur built aircraft is not listed as one of the persons qualified to perform static pressure system tests and inspections (in order to detect a leak) on the aircraft that he is rated for. Please let me know if you have any questions on this subject. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: It is possible that some FAA employee has given the OK for some Repairman to perform a static pressure system leak test on his experimental amateur built aircraft, but that does not constitute a universal change the regulation. Besides what equipment and test performance criteria would the Repairman use to determine whether or not he had an acceptable leak? Hint: The answer to this question can be found in the Matronics aeroelectric list archives. (Search for "static check" dated Sep 11) ========================================================== >From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> >Sent: Jun 8, 2012 10:22 AM >To: avionics-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Bi-ennial transponder/encoder/static >certifications > >--> Avionics-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen > >A common misconception. Yes you built your aircraft. That does not make >you a "manufacturer" in the terms of these regulations. >You need the transponder certified by someone with a repair station >license. There is no certification of the pitot system, only the static >system. The only reason the pitot is connected to the test is to protect >your airspeed indicator from an excessive pressure difference with the >static port. >You can leak test your static system if you ever need to open it between >the required certifications, and that is legal, but the certification >must be done by an appropriately rated repair station. >Kelly McMullen >A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor =========================================== > >On 6/8/2012 6:46 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote: >> --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" >> >> >> In reading 91.411 and 91.413, it says the manufacturer of the airplane >> can perform the tests. >> >> Since I built my 6A, I'm thinking that I cando the tests myself and make >> the logbook entry. >> >> Testing the transponder codes might be the difficult part - but I have >> already built the test equipment and tested the Pitot-static system and verified the altitude goung to the transponder is correct. >> >> Thoughts please, >> Ralph ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 9 lb battery/jumpstart kits
Just confirming what Ron has already asserted . . . here's a 1-amp discharge curve on one of the batteries he sent me: Emacs! This test article delivered just over 11 a.h. at the 1-amp so I suspect the 20 hour rate is about 0.8 amps for a total of 12 a.h. Both of the batteries I received were in the 180-200 amp range for 15 second cranking currents. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
At 06:03 PM 6/7/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > > >If you want the initial software to support the variable flash rate >on the wig-wag I can handle that. Let me know how you want >to configure the changes to the inputs. Is the board you sent >me already set up to handle this with the way it is configured? >I can add the two other input lines to the test harness you >sent. Are you in possession of the tools and skills to work with 1206 surface mount components? The board I sent you has Emacs! R26 and R27 installed. Those need to be removed and replaced by R11 and R14. I don't try to 'save' a removed SMD component. So I'd wick the solder off the two un-needed resistors and install two new ones. Why don't I assemble the second board configured for two sets of control inputs and you could put the finishing touches on your code. >I would think that three rate settings would be enough, maybe >45 flashes per minute for the default rate, and then 90 and 120 >flashes for higher rates. That would be the flash rate for >each of the lamps, alternating lamps to get the wig-wag. The LEDs are much more effective at the high rates than incandescent lamps. 3 events per second is supposed to be the 'magic' attention-getter. Those values sound good to me. >I would think that 3 rate settings would be enough using the >same type of switch you have on the other set of inputs. Let me pray over some controls topology for adding independent control of the two lights. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bi-ennial transponder/encoder/static certifications
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 09, 2012
> I have a high confidence level in taking it to a 'certified' shop...Bi-ennial transponder/encoder/static certifications (Ralph E. Capen) Definitions for Airmen: Certified: Endorsed by authorities as having met specific requirements or possessing certain qualities; e.g. " Certified Public Accountant", i.e., a person skilled at altering or destroying documents, ignoring or failing to investigate shell companies created by insiders who grotesquely enriched themselves while hiding mounting corporate debt in "off-balance-sheet companies"; Ignoring knowledgeable whistleblowers and accounting "red flags" that indicate massive fraud is taking place; misleading investors who continued pouring their money into failing companies. See Enron. Certifiable: Determined to be insane or non compos mentis; e.g. I know who I am. No one else knows who I am. If I was a giraffe, and someone said I was a snake, I'd think, no, actually I'm a giraffe. - Richard Gere Certificated: Something or someone judged to meet certain standards, e.g. airworthiness or as in certificated flight instructor. The term signifies that a printed official-looking paper (a ticket, slang for certificate) is somewhere to be found. Discussion--The FAA is quite careful to use the word certify only in the sense of swear to the truthfulness of or affirm. For example: you only have to certify that you have no medical defect You must certify the application form by reading, answering, signing, and dating. to certify the record is true and complete. In good humor, Eric M. Jones -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375119#375119 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project
From: "gregmchugh" <gregmchugh(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 09, 2012
Bob, I won't attempt to make the changes to the board. I will send out a flashed PIC today with the default code that I have been using for testing. When you send me a board with the inputs reconfigured we can decide on how to configure the variable flash rate option. Attached is the source code for the PIC I am sending you. Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375122#375122 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wigwag_432.c ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Contactor Diode?
At 08:56 AM 5/8/2012, you wrote: Recently a friend of mine purchased an RV-6A, and shortly after buying it he turned the master switch on one morning, there was a "poof", and the wire supplying the ground to the battery contactor burnt up. This is an exceedingly rare event. So rare that legacy design goals in TC aircraft do not incorporate any form of protection for this particular wire . . . The airplane needed some major electrical work (even prior to this). It was wired basically according to Z-11 (I recognized the architecture straight away) but CRUDE! Cripes... Anyway, we changed out the contactor as it was pretty rough looking and I had a new one on the shelf from Spruce. But it didn't have a spark catching diode so we used the old diode that the previous owner had made up. This time when he powered it up (hanging onto the ground wire) he felt the wire getting hot immediately and killed the power before anything flamed. Changed the contactor completely and put a new one from B&C (with the supplied diode) in and the problem went away. 6/9/12 The contactor and diode you sent me have been inspected. The contactor appears functional and draws the expected current. The diode was indeed shorted. The terminals on the diode were of the size needed to insure proper installation so I'm at a loss to explain the diode failure. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 06/09/12
Date: Jun 10, 2012
only intermittent access to e-mail until June 19th, in an urgent matter contact info(at)lastfrontierheli.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Found it!
I just wanted to stop and thank everyone for their suggestions and help as I was searching for this gremlin. The fix did turn out to be installing tha t $11 in-line audio filter into the audio jack on the 396 and sending it on its way to the intercom. Jumped in, fired it up and taxied around for the first time in peace and quiet.-=0ADan=0A=0A=0A___________________________ _____=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0A M=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Found it!=0A =0A=0AAt 09:52 PM 5/29 /2012, you wrote:=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>=0A>From: "Robert L.=0ANuckolls, III" <nuc kolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0A>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A> =0A>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 7:31 PM=0A>=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-Li st: Re: Found it!=0A>=0A>=0A>At 09:14 PM 5/29/2012, you=0Awrote:=0A>Found t his thread on VansAirforce-=0Ahttp://www.vansairforce.com/community/showt hread.php?t=17882 =0A>>It looks like this is a common problem with the Ga rmin 396. =0A>>Dan=0A>=0A>- Okay, where does the 396 get power ground. Tr y grounding=0Ait=0A>=0A>- to the same place all the audio-lo or shield gr ounds get=0A>=0A>- connected.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>- Bob . . . =0A>=0A>=0A>Wi ll take another look Bob.=0AThanks =0A=0A- Just dug up the manual on the 396. I'm 99% certain=0A- that this is a ground loop problem. The telling =0A- symptom is alternator noise that increases with=0A- ship's loads w hen substantial currents travel over=0A- the airframe. I'll bet if you mo ve the Garmin=0A- DC(-) lead to the same ground as all the avionics/=0A ================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Date: Jun 10, 2012
Jeff, I viewed this late. Your are right, way too much signal blocking structure, but, maybe even worse it is the antenna is positioned horizontally. The polarization of the signal path is all wrong. It must mounted vertically... I am sure that you figured all this out by now.... Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Luckey To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 10:32 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Mount Please see attached picture: Please understand that my intention is not to be critical, but to learn. Is this an effective way to mount an ELT antenna? I understand why this builder chose to mount it this way. But I have concerns that there is a great deal of signal-blocking structure very close to the antenna. What do you RF gurus think? -RF neophyte ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2012
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
How do you know what the antenna orientation will be after a crash? Only then will orientation matter. Even then, orientation to the satellite matters more than orientation to terrestrial receivers. Any mounting that prevents the antenna from being broken during the crash will be better than one that lets the antenna be snapped off by flipping the plane. On 6/10/2012 7:17 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > Jeff, > I viewed this late. Your are right, way too much signal blocking > structure, but, maybe even worse it is the antenna is positioned > horizontally. The polarization of the signal path is all wrong. It > must mounted vertically... > I am sure that you figured all this out by now.... > Dave > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Date: Jun 10, 2012
Kelly, I think the majority of crashes usually wind up in horizontal orientation. If the antenna is mounted vertically in front of the vertical stabilizer in most crashes that part of the airframe has a good chance of staying fairly intact even upside down. About the ELT... the older 121.5 broadcasting on the guard band is usually not heard by a satellite but, overflying aircraft. The newer higher band units should reach an overhead satellite. It would be interesting to see how well the contact goes from an antenna that is oriented horizontally and close the to earth, i.e. crash site. I wonder if someone on the List would respond that knows the details about the new ELT's performance under adverse conditions. D _________________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:35 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Mount > > > How do you know what the antenna orientation will be after a crash? Only > then will orientation matter. > Even then, orientation to the satellite matters more than orientation to > terrestrial receivers. > Any mounting that prevents the antenna from being broken during the crash > will be better than one that lets the antenna be snapped off by flipping > the plane. > > On 6/10/2012 7:17 PM, David Lloyd wrote: >> Jeff, >> I viewed this late. Your are right, way too much signal blocking >> structure, but, maybe even worse it is the antenna is positioned >> horizontally. The polarization of the signal path is all wrong. It must >> mounted vertically... >> I am sure that you figured all this out by now.... >> Dave >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/10/12
Date: Jun 11, 2012
only intermittent access to e-mail until June 19th, in an urgent matter contact info(at)lastfrontierheli.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2012
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
The point is we simply don't know orientation of a crash. If on flat ground it may very well be horizontal, although I have seen a lawn dart orientation as well. In mountains, vertical is just as likely. 121.5 is no longer monitored by satellite, so only over flying aircraft are likely to detect unless crash is near ATC facility. It would be interesting to know what orientation works best with satellites. On 6/10/2012 10:23 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > Kelly, > I think the majority of crashes usually wind up in horizontal > orientation. If the antenna is mounted vertically in front of the > vertical stabilizer in most crashes that part of the airframe has a > good chance of staying fairly intact even upside down. > About the ELT... the older 121.5 broadcasting on the guard band is > usually not heard by a satellite but, overflying aircraft. The newer > higher band units should reach an overhead satellite. It would be > interesting to see how well the contact goes from an antenna that is > oriented horizontally and close the to earth, i.e. crash site. > I wonder if someone on the List would respond that knows the details > about the new ELT's performance under adverse conditions. > D > > _________________________________________________________________ > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com> > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:35 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Mount > > >> >> >> How do you know what the antenna orientation will be after a crash? >> Only then will orientation matter. >> Even then, orientation to the satellite matters more than orientation >> to terrestrial receivers. >> Any mounting that prevents the antenna from being broken during the >> crash will be better than one that lets the antenna be snapped off by >> flipping the plane. >> >> On 6/10/2012 7:17 PM, David Lloyd wrote: >>> Jeff, >>> I viewed this late. Your are right, way too much signal blocking >>> structure, but, maybe even worse it is the antenna is positioned >>> horizontally. The polarization of the signal path is all wrong. It >>> must mounted vertically... >>> I am sure that you figured all this out by now.... >>> Dave >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> >> >> >> > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2012
From: John Grosse <grosseair(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Whether or not the ELT works in whatever orientation you install it really only matters to me if I have a survivable crash. If my plane "lawn darts" into the ground I'm probably not gonna make it no matter what my ELT does or doesn't do. On the other hand, if my plane winds up more or less horizontal there's a good chance of my having survived and I want that thing working. The ELT manufacturers have already done the testing and the design. "Use our antenna and install according to our directions and it will work." ELT antennas are meant to be installed vertically because that's the orientation in which they work. John Grosse OBTW Haven't we gone around on this topic before? Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > The point is we simply don't know orientation of a crash. If on flat > ground it may very well be horizontal, although I have seen a lawn > dart orientation as well. In mountains, vertical is just as likely. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Leikam <arplnplt(at)gmail.com>
Subject: BC100-1 BATTERY
Date: Jun 11, 2012
I have a BC100-1 battery which was run pretty dead during paint due to the battery contractor being left on. I have tried re-charging with no luck. Is there any way to re-juvinate this battery for light use around the shop? Dave Leikam RV10 N89DA ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: BC100-1 BATTERY
From: William Schertz <wschertz(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jun 11, 2012
If you are recharging with a "smart" charger, the charger will not work if the battery doesn't supply a minimum voltage. Try an old fashioned charger, or put it in parallel with a good battery on your smart charger. Sent from my iPad On Jun 11, 2012, at 8:54 AM, David Leikam wrote: > > I have a BC100-1 battery which was run pretty dead during paint due to the battery contractor being left on. > I have tried re-charging with no luck. Is there any way to re-juvinate this battery for light use around the shop? > > Dave Leikam > RV10 > N89DA > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: ELT Antenna Mount
Date: Jun 12, 2012
G'day all, Kelly is right, 121.5MHz satellite monitoring was turned off in early 2009, but many airliner radios are configured to monitor GUARD 121.5 as a matter of routine. 406MHz (actually 406.025) is monitored by both a special payload on a range of geostationary (GEO) satellites and low earth orbit (LEO) satellites intended primarily for other things. The main advantage of 406 upgrade is the that the transmission is digital. Hence, your digital databurst (0.44 to 0.54 seconds long, randomised at around 50 second intervals to avoid repeated over-transmissions and TX at about 5W - much higher than the old analogue beacons) contains a bunch of useful information that the Rescue Coordination Centre can use immediately to differentiate one beacon from another (i.e you). They can then match a bunch of info to the distress, such as your flight plan. An in-built constant 121.5 swept tone generator is still required as a homing localisation signal for rescuers. 406 can be homed to, but requires specialised equipment to track the short databursts. The GEO satellites orbit the Earth, but at a rate consistent with the Earths rotation. Hence, they remain in an essentially constant position relative to the Earth, roughly overhead (about 36km up I think). A GEO satellite will generally receive your digital databurst and relay it to the RCC immediately, but can't work out where you are unless your ELT happens to transmit the GPS position as well (either in-built GPS or fed from the aircraft NAV system). The SAR situation may then be resolved immediately with a telephone call to you ... for example if the beacon is accidentally switched on. LEO satellites orbit the Earth and may also take the GPS position from your ELT, but otherwise use Doppler analysis to fix the position. However, a fix is calculated on both sides of the satellite track. A second satellite pass on a different track is required to resolve the ambiguity (i.e. there will be matching fixes to one side of the original track, but they won't match on the other side). The trouble with this is that the passes are sometimes as long as 2 hours apart, so it may take quite some time to resolve the ambiguity and determine where the ELT is transmitting from. The reason 406 is substantially more accurate to Doppler fix than the older analogue 121.5 beacons is that the standard for frequency stability is much higher. Hence, the annulus for older beacons was about 20km and for new about 5km. I recommend ELTs or Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) with in-built GPS as they dramatically reduce the time to first accurate fix, which may matter if it's getting dark. Exposure to the elements is often the greater threat, so there's no advantage in waiting longer than you have to for rescue. Keep in mind that a great many ELTs don't work at all after a crash because the COAX gets damaged, so keep that cable run short if possible. On the up side, no matter whether you're attempting to transmit straight up to the GEO or sideways to one of the many LEO satellites, your relatively high-power databurst is likely to be detected quickly, which provides the RCC a LOT of information about you. They don't necessarily need to fix you by satellite to work out where you disappeared off radar ... but it is a huge advantage to the RCC knowing which ELT is actually transmitting !!! I have a fast two-seat tandem tailwheel with a slider canopy. There isn't much room between the canopy track and the VS, so my antenna will be bottom mounted close to the ELT inside. The antenna will be raked back at 30 degrees with a custom-made fairing around the 3/4" x 6" base. In my POV, the antenna is likely to be on top after crash landing rough enough for me to depend on it, with the 'donut' radiating towards the GEO satellite. If not, the LEOs are likely to see in due course. I also carry a GPS PLB. Hope this helps. Stu -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 11:03 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Mount --> The point is we simply don't know orientation of a crash. If on flat ground it may very well be horizontal, although I have seen a lawn dart orientation as well. In mountains, vertical is just as likely. 121.5 is no longer monitored by satellite, so only over flying aircraft are likely to detect unless crash is near ATC facility. It would be interesting to know what orientation works best with satellites. On 6/10/2012 10:23 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > Kelly, > I think the majority of crashes usually wind up in horizontal > orientation. If the antenna is mounted vertically in front of the > vertical stabilizer in most crashes that part of the airframe has a > good chance of staying fairly intact even upside down. > About the ELT... the older 121.5 broadcasting on the guard band is > usually not heard by a satellite but, overflying aircraft. The newer > higher band units should reach an overhead satellite. It would be > interesting to see how well the contact goes from an antenna that is > oriented horizontally and close the to earth, i.e. crash site. > I wonder if someone on the List would respond that knows the details > about the new ELT's performance under adverse conditions. > D > > _________________________________________________________________ > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly McMullen" > > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:35 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Mount > > >> >> >> How do you know what the antenna orientation will be after a crash? >> Only then will orientation matter. >> Even then, orientation to the satellite matters more than orientation >> to terrestrial receivers. >> Any mounting that prevents the antenna from being broken during the >> crash will be better than one that lets the antenna be snapped off by >> flipping the plane. >> >> On 6/10/2012 7:17 PM, David Lloyd wrote: >>> Jeff, >>> I viewed this late. Your are right, way too much signal blocking >>> structure, but, maybe even worse it is the antenna is positioned >>> horizontally. The polarization of the signal path is all wrong. It >>> must mounted vertically... >>> I am sure that you figured all this out by now.... >>> Dave >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> >>> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> >> >> >> > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Antenna Wire Disconnect at Wing Root?
Date: Jun 11, 2012
I'm planning wire runs for wings on RV-7 and would like to make wings as easy to remove as possible. Planning on using Molex-like connectors at wing roots for lights in the wing. Also planning to use wing-tip VOR antenna from Bob Archer. Question: 1. How much loss would I encounter if I use a coax connector at the wing root for the VOR antenna? 2. What is the best-we-know-how-to-do for this issue? Thanks, Jeff Luckey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Date: Jun 11, 2012
Great technical comparison. One thing about 406 (and other VHF/UHF frequencies) is that radio waves tend to bounce around off of metal/water/rock rather than be absorbed. I'm not an RF guy, but this effect is seen when using a cellphone in an elevator (effectively a Faraday cage with small openings for radio waves to leak out). Is there anything about 406 MHz that makes it better in the SAR application due to this effect? What I'm getting at, is does it really matter what polarization is, or adjacency to metal objects is in a real-world application.... the signal might just bounce around until it 'leaks out' to the satellite? Vern -----Original Message----- From: Stuart Hutchison Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 7:23 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Mount G'day all, Kelly is right, 121.5MHz satellite monitoring was turned off in early 2009, but many airliner radios are configured to monitor GUARD 121.5 as a matter of routine. 406MHz (actually 406.025) is monitored by both a special payload on a range of geostationary (GEO) satellites and low earth orbit (LEO) satellites intended primarily for other things. The main advantage of 406 upgrade is the that the transmission is digital. Hence, your digital databurst (0.44 to 0.54 seconds long, randomised at around 50 second intervals to avoid repeated over-transmissions and TX at about 5W - much higher than the old analogue beacons) contains a bunch of useful information that the Rescue Coordination Centre can use immediately to differentiate one beacon from another (i.e you). They can then match a bunch of info to the distress, such as your flight plan. An in-built constant 121.5 swept tone generator is still required as a homing localisation signal for rescuers. 406 can be homed to, but requires specialised equipment to track the short databursts. The GEO satellites orbit the Earth, but at a rate consistent with the Earths rotation. Hence, they remain in an essentially constant position relative to the Earth, roughly overhead (about 36km up I think). A GEO satellite will generally receive your digital databurst and relay it to the RCC immediately, but can't work out where you are unless your ELT happens to transmit the GPS position as well (either in-built GPS or fed from the aircraft NAV system). The SAR situation may then be resolved immediately with a telephone call to you ... for example if the beacon is accidentally switched on. LEO satellites orbit the Earth and may also take the GPS position from your ELT, but otherwise use Doppler analysis to fix the position. However, a fix is calculated on both sides of the satellite track. A second satellite pass on a different track is required to resolve the ambiguity (i.e. there will be matching fixes to one side of the original track, but they won't match on the other side). The trouble with this is that the passes are sometimes as long as 2 hours apart, so it may take quite some time to resolve the ambiguity and determine where the ELT is transmitting from. The reason 406 is substantially more accurate to Doppler fix than the older analogue 121.5 beacons is that the standard for frequency stability is much higher. Hence, the annulus for older beacons was about 20km and for new about 5km. I recommend ELTs or Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) with in-built GPS as they dramatically reduce the time to first accurate fix, which may matter if it's getting dark. Exposure to the elements is often the greater threat, so there's no advantage in waiting longer than you have to for rescue. Keep in mind that a great many ELTs don't work at all after a crash because the COAX gets damaged, so keep that cable run short if possible. On the up side, no matter whether you're attempting to transmit straight up to the GEO or sideways to one of the many LEO satellites, your relatively high-power databurst is likely to be detected quickly, which provides the RCC a LOT of information about you. They don't necessarily need to fix you by satellite to work out where you disappeared off radar ... but it is a huge advantage to the RCC knowing which ELT is actually transmitting !!! I have a fast two-seat tandem tailwheel with a slider canopy. There isn't much room between the canopy track and the VS, so my antenna will be bottom mounted close to the ELT inside. The antenna will be raked back at 30 degrees with a custom-made fairing around the 3/4" x 6" base. In my POV, the antenna is likely to be on top after crash landing rough enough for me to depend on it, with the 'donut' radiating towards the GEO satellite. If not, the LEOs are likely to see in due course. I also carry a GPS PLB. Hope this helps. Stu -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 11:03 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Mount --> The point is we simply don't know orientation of a crash. If on flat ground it may very well be horizontal, although I have seen a lawn dart orientation as well. In mountains, vertical is just as likely. 121.5 is no longer monitored by satellite, so only over flying aircraft are likely to detect unless crash is near ATC facility. It would be interesting to know what orientation works best with satellites. On 6/10/2012 10:23 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > Kelly, > I think the majority of crashes usually wind up in horizontal > orientation. If the antenna is mounted vertically in front of the > vertical stabilizer in most crashes that part of the airframe has a > good chance of staying fairly intact even upside down. > About the ELT... the older 121.5 broadcasting on the guard band is > usually not heard by a satellite but, overflying aircraft. The newer > higher band units should reach an overhead satellite. It would be > interesting to see how well the contact goes from an antenna that is > oriented horizontally and close the to earth, i.e. crash site. > I wonder if someone on the List would respond that knows the details > about the new ELT's performance under adverse conditions. > D > > _________________________________________________________________ > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly McMullen" > > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:35 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Mount > > >> >> >> How do you know what the antenna orientation will be after a crash? >> Only then will orientation matter. >> Even then, orientation to the satellite matters more than orientation >> to terrestrial receivers. >> Any mounting that prevents the antenna from being broken during the >> crash will be better than one that lets the antenna be snapped off by >> flipping the plane. >> >> On 6/10/2012 7:17 PM, David Lloyd wrote: >>> Jeff, >>> I viewed this late. Your are right, way too much signal blocking >>> structure, but, maybe even worse it is the antenna is positioned >>> horizontally. The polarization of the signal path is all wrong. It >>> must mounted vertically... >>> I am sure that you figured all this out by now.... >>> Dave >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> >>> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> >> >> >> > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Date: Jun 11, 2012
It has been almost 50 years since I worked for an antenna company but I do have substantial real-world experience with ELTs. Antenna orientation doesn't matter in this application. You have on the order of over 100 db of signal loss before communication with a satellite becomes difficult. Antenna orientation will cause at most 3 db of signal loss. A much more important factor is antenna/cable integrity. In a relatively minor crash almost any location will work. At worst you can remove the ELT and jury rig a workable antenna. In a major crash (you're trapped, won't survive long, etc) there is a high likelihood *any* external ELT antenna will be disconnected. This is why I advocate ELT antennas be mounted internally. Bad radio location but a lot better than non-existent. For fiberglass structure a good location is in the forward part of the tail cone. For carbon fiber and metal planes you should mount it somewhere in the cabin with a view outside. For bubble canopies this is easy but even high-wing and tube structures will work from inside. The 406 MHz signal will pass through any gap larger than 5 inches. Even the non-essential 121.5 MHz signal will be detectable from short distances no matter what pile of metal randomly surrounds the antenna. Tom Kuffel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 11, 2012
Subject: Re: Antenna Wire Disconnect at Wing Root?
>From everything I've heard it's very difficult to remove wings once installed with the close-tolerance bolts. Nevertheless I installed connectors for all wiring at the wing roots so I could wire the wings and fuselage ahead of time separately, and connect them at the time I joined wings to fuselage. I believe there is very little loss for a single coax connector. Ralph Finch On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > I=92m planning wire runs for wings on RV-7 and would like to make wings as > easy to remove as possible.**** > > ** ** > > Planning on using Molex-like connectors at wing roots for lights in the > wing. **** > > Also planning to use wing-tip VOR antenna from Bob Archer. **** > > ** ** > > Question:**** > > ** ** > > 1. How much loss would I encounter if I use a coax connector at the wing > root for the VOR antenna?**** > > 2. What is the best-we-know-how-to-do for this issue?**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Thanks,**** > > ** ** > > Jeff Luckey**** > > ** ** > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna Wire Disconnect at Wing Root?
Date: Jun 11, 2012
Removing the wings from an RV is not an easy process. Wiring will be the least concern if this is necessary. What I did on my first RV was to use terminal blocks and bnc connectors, but in my Rocket, I=99m just going to connect the wires with butt splices and the antenna wire will be routed without interruption to the panel. With a bit of slack or a service loop, if you ever have to remove the wings, cut the wires and reterminate with new butt splices. As for the antenna cables, you can then add bnc in-line connectors. This is by far the cheapest, easiest, lightest and most space efficient solution. Also, connectors of any kind are failure points that eventually will need service. I=99ve had more connector failures in my career than the I care to discuss. Vern From: Jeff Luckey Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 8:45 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antenna Wire Disconnect at Wing Root? I=99m planning wire runs for wings on RV-7 and would like to make wings as easy to remove as possible. Planning on using Molex-like connectors at wing roots for lights in the wing. Also planning to use wing-tip VOR antenna from Bob Archer. Question: 1. How much loss would I encounter if I use a coax connector at the wing root for the VOR antenna? 2. What is the best-we-know-how-to-do for this issue? Thanks, Jeff Luckey No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 06/11/12 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2012
Subject: Lost my to/from flag in my VOR
From: joe motis <joemotis(at)gmail.com>
The needle still swings but the flag does not drop. Just trying to educate myself a bit before it goes into the shop. It is a KX 155 radio. Anyone have this issue ? Thanks Joe Motis Cherokee 180E ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fisher Paul A." <FisherPaulA(at)johndeere.com>
Date: Jun 11, 2012
Subject: Antenna Wire Disconnect at Wing Root?
Jeff, As several others have said - "the best we know how to do" is don't plan to take the wings back off! Once you permanently install them, you will unde rstand! ;-) However to answer your question, I had exactly the same thought you did - m ake it easy to remove later. I put a bulkhead BNC connector on the side of the fuselage for the VOR antenna in the wingtip and it works fine. I've ha d no issues with it (VOR, localizer, and glideslope). I can't speak to the amount of loss - I don't have the equipment or expertise to give you a num ber. But I can tell you that it has worked for the last three years and I have no plans to change it. Hope that helps. Paul A. Fisher RV-7A N18PF ~330 hours since August of 2009 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antenna Wire Disconnect at Wing Root? I'm planning wire runs for wings on RV-7 and would like to make wings as ea sy to remove as possible. Planning on using Molex-like connectors at wing roots for lights in the win g. Also planning to use wing-tip VOR antenna from Bob Archer. Question: 1. How much loss would I encounter if I use a coax connector at the wing ro ot for the VOR antenna? 2. What is the best-we-know-how-to-do for this issue? Thanks, Jeff Luckey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Mount
Date: Jun 11, 2012
Tom, Great review and what I was hoping would show up on the List...... Thanks, D ___________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:25 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Mount > > > It has been almost 50 years since I worked for an antenna company but I do > have substantial real-world experience with ELTs. > > Antenna orientation doesn't matter in this application. You have on the > order of over 100 db of signal loss before communication with a satellite > becomes difficult. Antenna orientation will cause at most 3 db of signal > loss. A much more important factor is antenna/cable integrity. In a > relatively minor crash almost any location will work. At worst you can > remove the ELT and jury rig a workable antenna. In a major crash (you're > trapped, won't survive long, etc) there is a high likelihood *any* > external ELT antenna will be disconnected. > > This is why I advocate ELT antennas be mounted internally. Bad radio > location but a lot better than non-existent. For fiberglass structure a > good location is in the forward part of the tail cone. For carbon fiber > and metal planes you should mount it somewhere in the cabin with a view > outside. For bubble canopies this is easy but even high-wing and tube > structures will work from inside. The 406 MHz signal will pass through > any gap larger than 5 inches. Even the non-essential 121.5 MHz signal > will be detectable from short distances no matter what pile of metal > randomly surrounds the antenna. > > Tom Kuffel > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 06/11/12
Date: Jun 12, 2012
only intermittent access to e-mail until June 19th, in an urgent matter contact info(at)lastfrontierheli.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Pitot Tube Help
Date: Jun 12, 2012
Off topic! (well it is electrically heated;) Looking to capitalize on the Aerolectric Brain Trust to find an old pitot tube expert. I have a pitot tube, Aero Instrument PH504, (AN 5811-1), which is looks like a typical C-172 pitot tube (you know, "L" shaped with about a 4 in tube attached to an airfoil cross-section vertical piece. When mounted under the wing on a C-172 the tube part would be closest to the ground.) However this one is designed for INVERTED mounting, apparently designed to be mounted to a top surface of an airframe (where the tube part would be furthest from the ground.) I'm pretty sure that the air doesn't care which way the thing is mounted, as long as the tube is parallel to the air stream. So my guess is that the Inverted model has drain holes in different places. Questions: 1. does drain hole position REALLY matter? 2. Multiple Choice: What will happen in flight if this device is mounted the standard way (not inverted) and it picks-up a little moisture? a. water in pitot lines b. inaccurate airspeed indication c. the end of life as we know it d. smoking crater TIA, Jeff Luckey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <berkut13(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot Tube Help
Date: Jun 12, 2012
Are you sure that hole is a drain and not a static port? From: Jeff Luckey Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Tube Help Off topic! (well it is electrically heated;) Looking to capitalize on the Aerolectric Brain Trust to find an old pitot tube expert I have a pitot tube, Aero Instrument PH504, (AN 5811-1), which is looks like a typical C-172 pitot tube (you know, =9CL=9D shaped with about a 4 in tube attached to an airfoil cross-section vertical piece. When mounted under the wing on a C-172 the tube part would be closest to the ground.) However this one is designed for INVERTED mounting, apparently designed to be mounted to a top surface of an airframe (where the tube part would be furthest from the ground.) I=99m pretty sure that the air doesn=99t care which way the thing is mounted, as long as the tube is parallel to the air stream. So my guess is that the Inverted model has drain holes in different places. Questions: 1.. does drain hole position REALLY matter? 2.. Multiple Choice: What will happen in flight if this device is mounted the standard way (not inverted) and it picks-up a little moisture? 1.. water in pitot lines 2.. inaccurate airspeed indication 3.. the end of life as we know it 4.. smoking crater TIA, Jeff Luckey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Pitot Tube Help
Date: Jun 12, 2012
Yes, drawing that came with the unit indicates Drain Hole _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of berkut13(at)berkut13.com Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 09:03 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Tube Help Are you sure that hole is a drain and not a static port? From: Jeff Luckey <mailto:JLuckey(at)pacbell.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Tube Help Off topic! (well it is electrically heated;) Looking to capitalize on the Aerolectric Brain Trust to find an old pitot tube expert. I have a pitot tube, Aero Instrument PH504, (AN 5811-1), which is looks like a typical C-172 pitot tube (you know, "L" shaped with about a 4 in tube attached to an airfoil cross-section vertical piece. When mounted under the wing on a C-172 the tube part would be closest to the ground.) However this one is designed for INVERTED mounting, apparently designed to be mounted to a top surface of an airframe (where the tube part would be furthest from the ground.) I'm pretty sure that the air doesn't care which way the thing is mounted, as long as the tube is parallel to the air stream. So my guess is that the Inverted model has drain holes in different places. Questions: 1. does drain hole position REALLY matter? 2. Multiple Choice: What will happen in flight if this device is mounted the standard way (not inverted) and it picks-up a little moisture? a. water in pitot lines b. inaccurate airspeed indication c. the end of life as we know it d. smoking crater TIA, Jeff Luckey href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Pitot Tube Help
From: Jeff Luckey Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Tube Help Off topic! (well it is electrically heated;) Looking to capitalize on the Aerolectric Brain Trust to find an old pitot tube expert=85 I have a pitot tube, Aero Instrument PH504, (AN 5811-1), which is looks like a typical C-172 pitot tube (you know, =93L=94 shaped with about a 4 in tube attached to an airfoil cross-section vertical piece. When mounted under the wing on a C-172 the tube part would be closest to the ground.) However this one is designed for INVERTED mounting, apparently designed to be mounted to a top surface of an airframe (where the tube part would be furthest from the ground.) I=92m pretty sure that the air doesn=92t care which way the thing is mounted, as long as the tube is parallel to the air stream. So my guess is that the Inverted model has drain holes in different places. Questions: does drain hole position REALLY matter? * Multiple Choice: What will happen in flight if this device is mounted the standard way (not inverted) and it picks-up a little moisture? * water in pitot lines * inaccurate airspeed indication * the end of life as we know it * smoking crater A modern pitot tube is a complex study in aerodynamics, pneumatics, thermal dynamics and manufacturing. Contemporary design goals for a 'qualified' pitot tube calls for testing in an icing tunnel that is supposed to be sort of a worst case icing condition. http://tinyurl.com/7pmnqta Emacs! The idea is to melt any ice accumulation and provide a place for the moisture to go besides into the pitot-static plumbing. At the same time, many airplanes are fitted with accumulators at the system's low-spot that include a drain for removing any water. Some years ago at HBC, we had a series of incidents involving loss of pitot data on both sides at the same time at altitude with no visible moisture (clouds or ice crystals). Both systems recovered before the airplane landed and draining the accumulators produced no observable moisture. The pitot tubes installed were grand-fathered over from earlier installations and not 'qualified' to the latest and greatest de-icing specs. In fact, the tubes were originally installed pointed up at about 45 degree angle and had been moved to the bottom pointed downward thus placing the drain hole in the wrong clocking. New, latest and greatest tubes were installed. I'm not aware of any recurring incidents . . . need to make some phone calls. I'm a bit skeptical. I did some flight tests on the original tubes to measure internal and temperatures. The areas all over the tube remained well above freezing (LT1, LT3, LT4 curves in http://tinyurl.com/74yr5q8 ) The idea that there was frozen blockage of passages inside the tube didn't compute. So even if water did run down into the plumbing, where did it come from? Thawed ice crystals? Your guess is as good as mine. In any case, position of the drain hole was certainly not a high order concern. What I did come to understand was that unless your heated pitot tube is mounted to a machine qualified for flight into known icing, the ability to heat the tube is of limited usefulness. Once the tube is overwhelmed the flight characteristics (airfoil shapes) combined with added weight of ice make sort of pollutes the value of knowing indicated airspeed. The recommended process being to get to warmer altitudes without without changing anything that would move you closer to the low-speed corner of a flight envelope that is no longer defined. What you have is probably a fine device for use outside of icing conditions. Inside icing conditions becomes a toss-up as to whether the flight qualities airplane or the instrumentation get overwhelmed first. Wire that heater up if it makes you feel any better but know that having good IAS numbers is only part of the equation. Got a real good lesson during my only in-flight instrument approach in icing conditions. In this case, my instructor was sitting there calmly waiting for me to figure it out all the way down to the flare after having kept all the needles centered up for over 15 minutes in the clouds. The airplane fell out of the air and muffed what was supposed to be a good "by the numbers" landing . . . numbers that no longer represented the shape of the wing. Bottom line is that ice presents worries that can be a lot more hazardous than IAS numbers. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 12, 2012
Subject: Re: Pitot Tube Help
Good Afternoon Bob, We have had this same discussion before and I think we agreed to disagree, but since you presented your side of the discussion, mind if I add mine? Ice is where you find it. Icing forecasts are not real reliable and if you never fly in conditions where ice is a possibility, you deprive yourself of a lot of flexibility. Some say that the way to handle ice is to avoid it. My thought is that the way to handle ice is to keep a good way handy to get out of the ice. That has worked well for me over the last 62 years since I earned my Instrument rating. I do agree with you that we can fly adequately and safely without an airspeed indicator, but faster airplanes do make speed control much easier if we have a good airspeed indication. In my book, a couple hundred bucks spent to get a heated pitot tube is money well spent. Just this old guy's opinion! Happy Skies, Old Bob Downers Grove Illinois Stearman N3977A Beech V35B N20318 In a message dated 6/12/2012 4:44:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes: From: Jeff Luckey Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Tube Help Off topic! (well it is electrically heated;) Looking to capitalize on the Aerolectric Brain Trust to find an old pitot tube expert I have a pitot tube, Aero Instrument PH504, (AN 5811-1), which is looks like a typical C-172 pitot tube (you know, =9CL=9D shaped with about a 4 in tube attached to an airfoil cross-section vertical piece. When mounted under the wing on a C-172 the tube part would be closest to the ground.) However this one is designed for INVERTED mounting, apparently designed to be mounted to a top surface of an airframe (where the tube part would be furthest from the ground.) I=99m pretty sure that the air doesn=99t care which way the thi ng is mounted, as long as the tube is parallel to the air stream. So my guess is that the Inverted model has drain holes in different places. Questions: does drain hole position REALLY matter? * Multiple Choice: What will happen in flight if this device is mounted the standard way (not inverted) and it picks-up a little moisture? * water in pitot lines * inaccurate airspeed indication * the end of life as we know it * smoking crater A modern pitot tube is a complex study in aerodynamics, pneumatics, thermal dynamics and manufacturing. Contemporary design goals for a 'qualified' pitot tube calls for testing in an icing tunnel that is supposed to be sort of a worst case icing condition. _http://tinyurl.com/7pmnqta _ (http://tinyurl.com/7pmnqta) The idea is to melt any ice accumulation and provide a place for the moisture to go besides into the pitot-static plumbing. At the same time, many airplanes are fitted with accumulators at the system's low-spot that include a drain for removing any water. Some years ago at HBC, we had a series of incidents involving loss of pitot data on both sides at the same time at altitude with no visible moisture (clouds or ice crystals). Both systems recovered before the airplane landed and draining the accumulators produced no observable moisture. The pitot tubes installed were grand-fathered over from earlier installations and not 'qualified' to the latest and greatest de-icing specs. In fact, the tubes were originally installed pointed up at about 45 degree angle and had been moved to the bottom pointed downward thus placing the drain hole in the wrong clocking. New, latest and greatest tubes were installed. I'm not aware of any recurring incidents . . . need to make some phone calls. I'm a bit skeptical. I did some flight tests on the original tubes to measure internal and temperatures. The areas all over the tube remained well above freezing (LT1, LT3, LT4 curves in _http://tinyurl.com/74yr5q8 _ (http://tinyurl.com/74yr5q8) ) The idea that there was frozen blockage of passages inside the tube didn't compute. So even if water did run down into the plumbing, where did it come from? Thawed ice crystals? Your guess is as good as mine. In any case, position of the drain hole was certainly not a high order concern. What I did come to understand was that unless your heated pitot tube is mounted to a machine qualified for flight into known icing, the ability to heat the tube is of limited usefulness. Once the tube is overwhelmed the flight characteristics (airfoil shapes) combined with added weight of ice make sort of pollutes the value of knowing indicated airspeed. The recommended process being to get to warmer altitudes without without changing anything that would move you closer to the low-speed corner of a flight envelope that is no longer defined. What you have is probably a fine device for use outside of icing conditions. Inside icing conditions becomes a toss-up as to whether the flight qualities airplane or the instrumentation get overwhelmed first. Wire that heater up if it makes you feel any better but know that having good IAS numbers is only part of the equation. Got a real good lesson during my only in-flight instrument approach in icing conditions. In this case, my instructor was sitting there calmly waiting for me to figure it out all the way down to the flare after having kept all the needles centered up for over 15 minutes in the clouds. The airplane fell out of the air and muffed what was supposed to be a good "by the numbers" landing . . . numbers that no longer represented the shape of the wing. Bottom line is that ice presents worries that can be a lot more hazardous than IAS numbers. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 06/12/12
Date: Jun 13, 2012
only intermittent access to e-mail until June 19th, in an urgent matter contact info(at)lastfrontierheli.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pitot Tube Help
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 13, 2012
My 2 cents: I have kept the attached drawing of a pitot tube around to remind me that there are lots of ways to go, and lots that is known that I don't know. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375506#375506 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/pitotc46_198.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 06/12/12
From: Michael Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jun 13, 2012
Can someone remove this maggot spammer? On Jun 13, 2012, at 2:20 AM, Franz Fux wrote: > > only intermittent access to e-mail until June 19th, in an urgent matter contact > info(at)lastfrontierheli.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 13, 2012
Subject: Re: Pitot Tube Help
Good Morning Eric, Sure looks busy! Happy skies, Old Bob In a message dated 6/13/2012 7:49:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, emjones(at)charter.net writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" My 2 cents: I have kept the attached drawing of a pitot tube around to remind me that there are lots of ways to go, and lots that is known that I don't know. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375506#375506 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/pitotc46_198.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2012
Subject: Re: Pitot Tube Help
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
On 6/13/2012 9:32 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: > Sure looks busy! > Yeah, I'm having pitot envy. The pitot tube on my plane is literally just an aluminum tube bent into the wind... :-) -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 06/12/12
Date: Jun 13, 2012
Michael=3B Manners?? It's unlikely he's a "spammer". He is probably a sunscriber to the digest v ersion of the list who is away and has set his e-mail to "auto-reply" to in dicate his current inability to read e-mails. Each day that he receives the digest his e-mail client auto replys to that effect. Until he returns to a ctive monitoring we'll see one reply a day each time he is sent his daily e -mail by Matronics.. Not really a big deal. Just hit delete. Bob McC Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 06/1 2/12 From: mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com Date: Wed=2C 13 Jun 2012 08:04:48 -0500 Can someone remove this maggot spammer? On Jun 13=2C 2012=2C at 2:20 AM=2C Franz Fux wrote:--> AeroElectric-List me ssage posted by: "Franz Fux" only intermittent access to e-mail until June 19th=2C in an urgent matter contact info(at)lastfrontierheli.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Withdrawal from the list
From: "Float Flyr" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Date: Jun 13, 2012
About two weeks ago I had a major fire here. Caused by, so they say, a faulty extension cord. For the time of being I am going to withdraw from all my aviation lists. I hope you all continue to post and fly safely. Clear skies Noel -------- Noel Loveys Kitfox III-A Aerocet 1100 Floats Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375533#375533 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Withdrawal from the list
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Jun 13, 2012
Noel, Sorry to hear about your fire. Good luck getting things back together. I hope you are able to return to aviation soon. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Jun 13, 2012, at 10:33 AM, Float Flyr wrote: About two weeks ago I had a major fire here. Caused by, so they say, a faulty extension cord. For the time of being I am going to withdraw from all my aviation lists. I hope you all continue to post and fly safely. Clear skies Noel -------- Noel Loveys Kitfox III-A Aerocet 1100 Floats ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Pitot Tube Help
Date: Jun 13, 2012
Bingo! Almost everything you wanted to know about pitot tubes (but were afraid to ask). I wanted to know what the guts looked like & Bob provides a picture before I can ask! Aint this list great! Thanks to BobN and all who replied. One data point for those who care: I connected the heater to a 12V power supply and found that after about a minute the current was about 2.5 amps @ 12.8 volts and the tube was hot enough to sizzle spit, literally. The tube is rated for 24V. -Jeff _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 14:25 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Tube Help From: Jeff Luckey Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Tube Help Off topic! (well it is electrically heated;) Looking to capitalize on the Aerolectric Brain Trust to find an old pitot tube expert. I have a pitot tube, Aero Instrument PH504, (AN 5811-1), which is looks like a typical C-172 pitot tube (you know, "L" shaped with about a 4 in tube attached to an airfoil cross-section vertical piece. When mounted under the wing on a C-172 the tube part would be closest to the ground.) However this one is designed for INVERTED mounting, apparently designed to be mounted to a top surface of an airframe (where the tube part would be furthest from the ground.) I'm pretty sure that the air doesn't care which way the thing is mounted, as long as the tube is parallel to the air stream. So my guess is that the Inverted model has drain holes in different places. Questions: does drain hole position REALLY matter? * Multiple Choice: What will happen in flight if this device is mounted the standard way (not inverted) and it picks-up a little moisture? * water in pitot lines * inaccurate airspeed indication * the end of life as we know it * smoking crater A modern pitot tube is a complex study in aerodynamics, pneumatics, thermal dynamics and manufacturing. Contemporary design goals for a 'qualified' pitot tube calls for testing in an icing tunnel that is supposed to be sort of a worst case icing condition. http://tinyurl.com/7pmnqta Emacs! The idea is to melt any ice accumulation and provide a place for the moisture to go besides into the pitot-static plumbing. At the same time, many airplanes are fitted with accumulators at the system's low-spot that include a drain for removing any water. Some years ago at HBC, we had a series of incidents involving loss of pitot data on both sides at the same time at altitude with no visible moisture (clouds or ice crystals). Both systems recovered before the airplane landed and draining the accumulators produced no observable moisture. The pitot tubes installed were grand-fathered over from earlier installations and not 'qualified' to the latest and greatest de-icing specs. In fact, the tubes were originally installed pointed up at about 45 degree angle and had been moved to the bottom pointed downward thus placing the drain hole in the wrong clocking. New, latest and greatest tubes were installed. I'm not aware of any recurring incidents . . . need to make some phone calls. I'm a bit skeptical. I did some flight tests on the original tubes to measure internal and temperatures. The areas all over the tube remained well above freezing (LT1, LT3, LT4 curves in http://tinyurl.com/74yr5q8 ) The idea that there was frozen blockage of passages inside the tube didn't compute. So even if water did run down into the plumbing, where did it come from? Thawed ice crystals? Your guess is as good as mine. In any case, position of the drain hole was certainly not a high order concern. What I did come to understand was that unless your heated pitot tube is mounted to a machine qualified for flight into known icing, the ability to heat the tube is of limited usefulness. Once the tube is overwhelmed the flight characteristics (airfoil shapes) combined with added weight of ice make sort of pollutes the value of knowing indicated airspeed. The recommended process being to get to warmer altitudes without without changing anything that would move you closer to the low-speed corner of a flight envelope that is no longer defined. What you have is probably a fine device for use outside of icing conditions. Inside icing conditions becomes a toss-up as to whether the flight qualities airplane or the instrumentation get overwhelmed first. Wire that heater up if it makes you feel any better but know that having good IAS numbers is only part of the equation. Got a real good lesson during my only in-flight instrument approach in icing conditions. In this case, my instructor was sitting there calmly waiting for me to figure it out all the way down to the flare after having kept all the needles centered up for over 15 minutes in the clouds. The airplane fell out of the air and muffed what was supposed to be a good "by the numbers" landing . . . numbers that no longer represented the shape of the wing. Bottom line is that ice presents worries that can be a lot more hazardous than IAS numbers. Bob . . . No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: SL-40
Just when I thought I was out of the woods, an ole nemesis returns. As I me ntioned in the last post, my noise going into intercom was canceled by an i n-line audio suppressor.=0ARight after I did a run-up today getting ready t o take off, I taxied to the hold-short line and called the tower. I lost my radio. I got back to the hanger to find for the second time I blew the 5 A fuse. The last time this happened was 11 to 12 hours ago. The SL-40 is wir ed to the E-Bus. I am of course concerned as to why this is happening, but know it could be a tough one to nail down. My thoughts have led me to try r unning power from the main bus but also using a DPDT switch to be able to f lip the power to the radio via the-=0AE-bus should it go south again. Any other ideas are welcome.=0ADan B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Inexpensive CAD Software
Date: Jun 13, 2012
Several months ago, I think I saw some traffic on this list about inexpensive CAD software. All I really need is some simple line-drawing & dimensioning capabilities to layout a panel. I used to use TurboCAD (~5-7 years ago). What's the hot ticket today? -Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2012
From: GERRY VAN%20DYK <gerry.vandyk(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Inexpensive CAD Software
Perhaps overkill, but Draftsight might be the ticket for you. http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/overview/ Gerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 11:14:01 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Inexpensive CAD Software Several months ago, I think I saw some traffic on this list about inexpensive CAD software. All I really need is some simple line-drawing & dimensioning capabilities to layout a panel. I used to use TurboCAD (~5-7 years ago). Whats the hot ticket today? -Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Inexpensive CAD Software
Date: Jun 13, 2012
Several months ago, I think I saw some traffic on this list about inexpensive CAD software. All I really need is some simple line-drawing & dimensioning capabilities to layout a panel. I used to use TurboCAD (~5-7 years ago). What's the hot ticket today? -Jeff I have been using TurboCad with good results. It's available for cheap on Ebay. DoubleCad is free on the internet, but I have no experience with it. Believe it is from the same company that does TurboCad. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: SL-40
Date: Jun 13, 2012
Dan just curious, when you say lost . does that mean no power at all or no transmit/receive power? Maybe only on the 430 but it seems like there are two fuses. My SL40 just quit passing any audio to the headphones but still appears to indicate RX/TX as if power is applied and it is working. Bill S RV7a From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Billingsley Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:09 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: SL-40 Just when I thought I was out of the woods, an ole nemesis returns. As I mentioned in the last post, my noise going into intercom was canceled by an in-line audio suppressor. Right after I did a run-up today getting ready to take off, I taxied to the hold-short line and called the tower. I lost my radio. I got back to the hanger to find for the second time I blew the 5 A fuse. The last time this happened was 11 to 12 hours ago. The SL-40 is wired to the E-Bus. I am of course concerned as to why this is happening, but know it could be a tough one to nail down. My thoughts have led me to try running power from the main bus but also using a DPDT switch to be able to flip the power to the radio via the E-bus should it go south again. Any other ideas are welcome. Dan B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Pitot Tube Help
One data point for those who care: I connected the heater to a 12V power supply and found that after about a minute the current was about 2.5 amps @ 12.8 volts and the tube was hot enough to sizzle spit, literally. The tube is rated for 24V. Which brings up another set of design goals for heated pitot installation. How much energy and under what conditions are needed for perfomance to design goals. While doing those studies for HBC I crafted this paper on heater temperature coefficient of resistance and thermal resistance from heater to tube. http://tinyurl.com/7778mm5 When operated in insulated, still air, the 13v pitot tube temperature rose to over 100C with less than 2 volts applied power. When operated at rated voltage in a stirred ice bath, the surface of the tube was of course at 0C but the internal heater was running at about 270 degrees C. Modern tubes don't have so large a differential. Another important revelation was the cold start resistance of the pitot tube. Just coming up from 0C, the tube wanted 30+ amps of inrush that persisted quite awhile. It took about 30 seconds for the current to stabilize at the expected 16 amps of steady state draw. During one set of flight tests, we installed thermocouples http://tinyurl.com/6o5hpdk and produced this data set http://tinyurl.com/7ougkfu Note that at 40K feet, -50C OAT and IAS about 200 kts, the hot spot on the tube (Ta) was 100C or better. That cold air blasting the tube at high velocity doesn't have very good cooling qualities at such low ambient pressures. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2012
From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: SL-40
Bill, yes, no power at all. The radio just went dead as it blew the 5A fuse at the E-bus. I looked up the SL-40 install manual and the unit does have a 7A internal fuse, but they do recommend the power in to be fused / breake r'd at no greater than 5A. It does not make much sense to me for this to ha ppen every 10 to 15 hours.=0ADan=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: Bill Schlatterer <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net>=0ATo: aeroelectr ic-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 11:15 AM=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SL-40=0A =0A=0ADan just curious, when you say lost does that mean no power at all or no transmit/receive power?=C2 - Maybe only on the 430 but it seems like there are two fuses.=C2- My S L40 just quit passing any audio to the headphones but still appears to indi cate RX/TX as if power is applied and it is working. =0A=C2-=0ABill S=0AR V7a=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matron ics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Billingsley=0ASent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:09 PM=0ATo: aeroelectri c-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: SL-40=0A=C2-=0AJust wh en I thought I was out of the woods, an ole nemesis returns. As I mentioned in the last post, my noise going into intercom was canceled by an in-line audio suppressor.=0ARight after I did a run-up today getting ready to take off, I taxied to the hold-short line and called the tower. I lost my radio. I got back to the hanger to find for the second time I blew the 5 A fuse. The last time this happened was 11 to 12 hours ago. The SL-40 is wired to t he E-Bus. I am of course concerned as to why this is happening, but know it could be a tough one to nail down. My thoughts have led me to try running power from the main bus but also using a DPDT switch to be able to flip the power to the radio via the=C2-=0AE-busshould it go south again. Any othe r ideas are welcome.=0ADan B=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/N avigator?AeroElectric-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matro == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Inexpensive CAD Software
At 12:14 PM 6/13/2012, you wrote: >Several months ago, I think I saw some traffic on this list about >inexpensive CAD software. > >All I really need is some simple line-drawing & dimensioning >capabilities to layout a panel. > >I used to use TurboCAD (~5-7 years ago). What's the hot ticket today? I think TurboCAD rev7 or later will also open, edit, save and print AutoCAD drawings which are posted on my website. No doubt there are others. You can get a really good deal on TurboCAD 8 right now on eBay http://tinyurl.com/bqwgnx2 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: SL-40
Date: Jun 13, 2012
If it was me, I would change to the next larger fuse size (7.5amp). Transmitting is not a sustained electrical condition. The fuse is to protect the wire between the fuse and the radio. You may consider metering the actual draw when transmitting for interest sake. You may find that the draw is right close to 5 amps, causing the "nuisance" trips. If the radio requires a certain amount of electrical power, and the voltage supplied by the ebus is slightly lower due to the diode, then the current draw has to rise slightly to compensate. Perhaps this is causing a slightly higher draw (amps) when operating on the ebus as compared to the main bus.. My opinions only. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Schlatterer Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 11:16 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SL-40 Dan just curious, when you say lost . does that mean no power at all or no


May 20, 2012 - June 13, 2012

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