AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lg
July 26, 2012 - August 27, 2012
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lg
July 26, 2012 - August 27, 2012
the biggest reason is higher octane mogas than i can get at the airport.=0A
>>>-anyway.............i need some advice on grounding.i have a 12 volt p
ump mounted and it is powered by a battery 20 feet away. i have a handheld
switch . i set the plastic can on the table and fuel is transferred thru vi
nyl tubing. at the airplane end is a metal filter. pumps a gallon a minute.
i plan to set up a ground to the exhaust pipe [all tanks are grounded to t
he engine] but i do not know how to ground - the pump or hoses. any advic
e would be appreciated.=0A>>>=0A>>Hi Bob,=0A>>=0A>>Technically, it's BONDIN
G you're interested in... grounding isn't much important unless you've expe
riencing lightening...=0A>>=0A>>You need some metal screen at the 'can', a
conductive hose (run a copper wire through it that's the best you can do) a
nd a connection at the tank inlet on the airplane. -All those nee to be b
onded together electrically.=0A>>=0A>>Paul=0A>>=0A>>-- =0A>>Please note my
new email address!=0A>>millner(at)me.com=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=======
=====0A>>-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigato
r?AeroElectric-List=0A>>=================
====================0A>>http://forums
.matronics.com=0A>>==================
===================0A>>le, List Admin.
=0A>>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>>=====
======== =0A>=0A>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: troubleshooting help needed
Date: Jul 26, 2012
OK, here's an update on what I've found without the engine running and using
the B&C LR3C troubleshooting checklist.
Step one gave me zero ohms resistance from the battery (-) to LR3C pin 7 and
the same from the battery (-) to the engine case.
Step two gave me a battery bus voltage of 12.64v and a pin 3 voltage of
12.62v.
Step three gave me a pin 6 voltage of 12.20, well within the 0.5v tolerance.
So far so good.
Step four gave me a pin 4 voltage of 11.20v, well within the desired range.
Step five. Here's where the fun begins. I measured the voltage at the
field terminal and it was zero. Thinking that there may be a continuity
problem I pulled the alternator field lead off the alternator and checked
again...no voltage. I turned off the power and checked the continuity and
found it was good. I also checked the alternator field resistance and it
came in at 30.6 ohms.
So now I think I may have some sort of a problem here so I hooked everything
back up and went back to step 4 and checked pin 4 again. This time it was
1.73 volts at both pin 4 and at the alternator field terminal.
The folks at B&C are at Oshkosh right now so getting hold of them might be
difficult but maybe Bob can weigh in again on this one.
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 9:25 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: troubleshooting help needed
>
>
> At 08:33 PM 7/20/2012, you wrote:
>
> [Luckey]
> Bob, is that correct - shouldn't Field & Bus voltage oppose each other?
> i.e. as Bus voltage goes up, Field current should go down?
>
> It depends on what is being held constant and what
> is being adjusted.
>
> If SYSTEM LOAD is the variable, then yes . . . the
> REGULATOR senses an INCREASE in bus voltage and
> reacts by REDUCING field voltage.
>
> In this instance, we're observing changes in
> system performance while the load is constant.
> If the field voltage rises in concert with the
> bus voltage, then the regulator is commanding
> that rise due to internal failure or mis-information
> in the voltage sense path and the alternator
> is performing normally.
>
> If the bus voltage falls while the field voltage
> rises, then the regulator is flogging a crippled
> alternator without success.
>
>
> Bob . . .
> >
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: troubleshooting help needed
Your original squawk:
When I'm flying at cruise power, or even idling, the voltage
wanders up and down
from 14.4v to slightly less than 13v. It does go down
enough that my Garmin
Aera 796 will drop off of ships power and go to it's
internal battery. This would
indicate to me that this is not a problem with the
voltmeter. This does not seem
to have any measurable cycle. The amps stay constant at
about 16 amps.
When I've had the plane flying I've tried turning off
equipment one at a time to
see if that might have any effect...it didn't.
So now I think I may have some sort of a problem
here so I hooked everything back up and went back
to step 4 and checked pin 4 again. This time it
was 1.73 volts at both pin 4 and at the alternator
field terminal.
You didn't tell us where your ammeter was connected . . .
in other words, what current does it measure?
The fact that your bus voltage falls so low (13.0 or below)
suggests the alternator is going off line completely and that
the bus voltage is falling to battery delivery voltage.
Your narrative also suggests that your ammeter is looking at
ship's loads and not alternator output which would explain
the relatively constant ammeter reading.
So now I think I may have some sort of a problem
here so I hooked everything back up and went back
to step 4 and checked pin 4 again. This time it
was 1.73 volts at both pin 4 and at the alternator
field terminal.
This is consistent with an intermittent disconnect of
alternator field supply which. If the voltage at pin 4
ever drops so low while pin 6 and 3 are at battery
voltage points to failure within the regulator. Suggest
you arrange to return it to B&C for inspection/repair.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: troubleshooting help needed
Date: Jul 27, 2012
Thanks Bob,
That's about what I was thinking also. I was hoping that I would find
the alternator was the problem as it's a heck of a lot easier to change.
Another question for you...I currently have the LR3C mounted on the
cabin side of the firewall. Do you see any problem with relocating it
to the engine side of the firewall? As long as I have to take it out, a
real PITA, I thought I might change the location to a location that is
easier to work on it in the case of another failure. Thanks,
Bill
So now I think I may have some sort of a problem
here so I hooked everything back up and went back
to step 4 and checked pin 4 again. This time it
was 1.73 volts at both pin 4 and at the alternator
field terminal.
This is consistent with an intermittent disconnect of
alternator field supply which. If the voltage at pin 4
ever drops so low while pin 6 and 3 are at battery
voltage points to failure within the regulator. Suggest
you arrange to return it to B&C for inspection/repair.
Bob . . .
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/27/12
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2012
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: troubleshooting help needed
On 07/27/2012 11:10 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Your original squawk:
>
> When I'm flying at cruise power, or even idling, the voltage wanders
> up and down
> from 14.4v to slightly less than 13v. It does go down enough that my
> Garmin
> Aera 796 will drop off of ships power and go to it's internal
> battery. This would
> indicate to me that this is not a problem with the voltmeter. This
> does not seem
> to have any measurable cycle. The amps stay constant at about 16 amps.
> When I've had the plane flying I've tried turning off equipment one at
> a time to
> see if that might have any effect...it didn't.
>
> So now I think I may have some sort of a problem
> here so I hooked everything back up and went back
> to step 4 and checked pin 4 again. This time it
> was 1.73 volts at both pin 4 and at the alternator
> field terminal.
>
> You didn't tell us where your ammeter was connected . . .
> in other words, what current does it measure?
>
> The fact that your bus voltage falls so low (13.0 or below)
> suggests the alternator is going off line completely and that
> the bus voltage is falling to battery delivery voltage.
>
> Your narrative also suggests that your ammeter is looking at
> ship's loads and not alternator output which would explain
> the relatively constant ammeter reading.
>
>
> So now I think I may have some sort of a problem
> here so I hooked everything back up and went back
> to step 4 and checked pin 4 again. This time it
> was 1.73 volts at both pin 4 and at the alternator
> field terminal.
>
> This is consistent with an intermittent disconnect of
> alternator field supply which. If the voltage at pin 4
> ever drops so low while pin 6 and 3 are at battery
> voltage points to failure within the regulator. Suggest
> you arrange to return it to B&C for inspection/repair.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Since the field voltage at the alt wasn't there, & came back after the
disconnect/reconnect, it might be worthwhile to disconnect it again & do
a resistance check while wiggling the wire & terminations, prior to
returning the regulator.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: troubleshooting help needed
At 11:45 AM 7/27/2012, you wrote:
>Thanks Bob,
>
>That's about what I was thinking also. I was hoping that I would
>find the alternator was the problem as it's a heck of a lot easier
>to change. Another question for you...I currently have the LR3C
>mounted on the cabin side of the firewall. Do you see any problem
>with relocating it to the engine side of the firewall? As long as I
>have to take it out, a real PITA, I thought I might change the
>location to a location that is easier to work on it in the case of
>another failure. Thanks,
Many of them are located on the engine side
of the fire wall and seem to do just fine.
We designed that critter 25 years ago and I
never did an on-purpose thermal study. I should
probably get one from Bill and put it in the
chamber to see what the real ambient limits
are.
Actually, temperatures on the fire wall while
in flight are quite benign. That's another real
data gathering exercise that would be useful
to conduct.
All it takes is time and $ . . . but you're
okay if you move it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2012
From: Jay Pearlman <jay.pearlman(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: LED installations
________________________________
Bob,
For the B&C wig-wag, I see a modification on the B&C site putting a resistor in
parallel. I was told you are working on an alternative solution for using LEDs.
Is there something in the works?
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2012
Subject: Z-13/8 in a Long-EZ
From: jeffk <jkember(at)gmail.com>
Just wanted to introduce myself to the group. I purchased a flying Long-EZ
and wish to upgrade the panel and rewire aircraft. I purchased the
Aeroelectric Connection a number of years ago and wish to thank Bob for all
of his work and for providing an electronic version as well (nice to not
have to carry about the printed version).
My current plan is to go with Z-13/8. I have an automotive alternator (one
year old), will be removing the vacuum system and replacing it with a SD-8
and am going with ATC fuses.
A box of bits arrived from B and C and I'm sure it won't be the last order.
I'm researching alternators, feed wires to such, battery and starter
contactors, regulators and where to position all of this. I'm also
researching internal vs external regulation on my main alternator.
I've been enjoying reading through the archives and wanted to thank
everyone for their contributions to the list.
Jeff - Long-EZ based in Livermore California
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-13/8 in a Long-EZ
>
>I've been enjoying reading through the archives and wanted to thank
>everyone for their contributions to the list.
Welcome to the family Jeff! I think you'll
be pleased with the level of assistance and
encouragement you will receive from members
of the List. It's among the busiest Lists
on Matronics populated by folks interested in
the best-we-know-how-to-do and love airplanes!
Keep us apprised of your progress and
questions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in 24/28V
Aircraft
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jul 28, 2012
LED Strip lighting is usually made for 12V systems. To convert this for 24/28 volt
systems see the attached pdf.
This is far better than using a stepdown supply or adding a load resistor.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379414#379414
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/modify_led_strip_lighting_for_24_28_volts_196.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in 24/28V
Aircraft
From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2012
Strangely enough, I did exactly this at work on Thursday. One thing to remember
is that the number of LED's in each of the strips must be the same or the one
with less LEDs in it will be brighter, or even blow.
Etienne
On 28 Jul 2012, at 7:31 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
> LED Strip lighting is usually made for 12V systems. To convert this for 24/28
volt systems see the attached pdf.
>
> This is far better than using a stepdown supply or adding a load resistor.
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379414#379414
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/modify_led_strip_lighting_for_24_28_volts_196.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in 24/28V
Aircraft
From: dfritzj <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2012
This raises a good question: is it okay to light a strip of LEDs by just wiring
them in series in a quantity such that each LED sees the appropriate voltage
drop? This would seem to eliminate the (admittedly small) energy loss from heating
up resistors. On the other hand, failure of one LED would darken the whole
string.
Thoughts?
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2012
Subject: gps
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
hi all, last week i started looking around for a garmin pilot 3 as a
backup. plenty of street pilots available. can an aviation database be
downloaded to the street pilot?
thanks, bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: gps
Date: Jul 29, 2012
My understanding is that you can NOT do that .. you need the aircraft
version.
Did you try on the VAF web site ? You can post a "want to buy" ...
Jan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob noffs
Sent: 29 July 2012 12:41
Subject: AeroElectric-List: gps
hi all, last week i started looking around for a garmin pilot 3 as a backup.
plenty of street pilots available. can an aviation database be downloaded to
the street pilot?
thanks, bob noffs
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
My understanding is that you can
NOT do
that .. you need the aircraft version.
Did you try on the VAF web site
? You can
post a “want to buy” …
Jan
From:
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob noffs
Sent: 29 July 2012
12:41
To: aeroelectric
list
Subject:
AeroElectric-List: gps
hi all, last week i started looking around for a garmin pilot 3
as a
backup. plenty of street pilots available. can an aviation database be
downloaded to the street pilot?
thanks, bob noffs
http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/
contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2012
Subject: Re: gps
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
jan,
i went to the site and how to it didn't just jump out and bite me so i
gave it up. i guess i will try that again.
bob noffs
On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 9:34 AM, jan wrote:
> My understanding is that you can NOT do that .. you need the aircraft
> version.****
>
> ** **
>
> Did you try on the VAF web site ? You can post a =93want to buy=94 =85**
**
>
> ** **
>
> Jan****
>
> ** **
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *bob noffs
> *Sent:* 29 July 2012 12:41
> *To:* aeroelectric list
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: gps****
>
> ** **
>
> hi all, last week i started looking around for a garmin pilot 3 as a
> backup. plenty of street pilots available. can an aviation database be
> downloaded to the street pilot?****
>
> thanks, bob noffs****
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2012
Subject: Re: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in 24/28V
Aircraft
From: Bill <wtrooper(at)gmail.com>
On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 11:35 PM, you wrote
---------------snip--------------
> One thing to remember is that the number of LED's in each of the strips
must be the same
-----------snip-----------
Not to worry, Eric noted this on his pdf below.
Bill
SF bay area
> > Attachments:
> >
> >
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/modify_led_strip_lighting_for_24_28_volts_196.pdf
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-13/8 in a Long-EZ
From: "jdubner" <jdubner(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2012
Jeff,
I also fly an Long-EZ, also with an automotive alternator and ATC fuses. I mounted
two fuse blocks back-to-back to a bulkhead and just above the nosewheel cover.
Attached is a picture of the battery-bus side of the fuseblocks. (Note:
some of the fuses visible are just spares.) The fuses are accessible through
the nose access hatch.
My alternator is an internally-regulated Hitachi (from a 1979 Datsun pickup) and
suffers no ill effects when I disconnect it from the bus with a contactor.
$50 at rockauto.com!
Email me if I can help you with any electrical or wiring issues.
--
Joe
Independence, OR
www.mail2600.com/cgi-bin/webcam.cgi
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379495#379495
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/battery_bus_fuse_block_971.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in 24/28V
Aircraft
Date: Jul 29, 2012
Are the LEDs shown in that PDF drawn w/ the correct polarity??
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 08:35
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in
24/28V Aircraft
On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 11:35 PM, you wrote
---------------snip--------------
> One thing to remember is that the number of LED's in each of the strips
must be the same
-----------snip-----------
Not to worry, Eric noted this on his pdf below.
Bill
SF bay area
> Attachments:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com//files/modify_led_strip_lighting_for_24_28_volts
_196.pdf
<http://forums.matronics.com/files/modify_led_strip_lighting_for_24_28_volts
_196.pdf>
>
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in 24/28V
Aircraft
Good catch, Jeff. -I guess you were Luckey, huh? -Good job!
Henador Titzoff
--- On Sun, 7/29/12, Jeff Luckey wrote:
From: Jeff Luckey <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in
24/28V Aircraft
Date: Sunday, July 29, 2012, 11:36 AM
=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAre the LEDs shown
in that PDF drawn w/=0Athe correct polarity?? =0A=0A - =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom:=0Aowner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com=0A[mail
to:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
=0ASent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 08:35
=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List:=0AModifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to wo
rk in 24/28V Aircraft =0A=0A=0A=0A - =0A=0A - =0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Jul 2
8, 2012 at 11:35 PM, you wrote =0A=0A=0A=0A - =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A---------
------snip--------------- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A> One thing to remember is th
at the number of LED's in each of the=0Astrips must be the same =0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A-----------snip------------ =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A - =0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0ANot to worry, Eric noted this on his pdf below. =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ABill =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ASF bay area =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A> Attachments:
=0A>
=0A> http://forums.matronics.com//files/modify_led_strip_lighting_for_24_28
_volts_196.pdf
=0A> =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A - -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElect
ric-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
- =0A=0A=0A=0ANo virus found in this message.
=0AChecked by AVG - www.avg.com
=====0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in 24/28V
Aircraft
Date: Jul 29, 2012
What's that old saying? It's better to be good than lucky. However, in my
case, I'm always Luckey ;)
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henador
Titzoff
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:47
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in
24/28V Aircraft
Good catch, Jeff. I guess you were Luckey, huh? Good job!
Henador Titzoff
--- On Sun, 7/29/12, Jeff Luckey wrote:
From: Jeff Luckey <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in
24/28V Aircraft
Date: Sunday, July 29, 2012, 11:36 AM
Are the LEDs shown in that PDF drawn w/ the correct polarity??
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 08:35
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in
24/28V Aircraft
On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 11:35 PM, you wrote
---------------snip--------------
> One thing to remember is that the number of LED's in each of the strips
must be the same
-----------snip-----------
Not to worry, Eric noted this on his pdf below.
Bill
SF bay area
> Attachments:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com//files/modify_led_strip_lighting_for_24_28_volts
_196.pdf
<http://forums.matronics.com/files/modify_led_strip_lighting_for_24_28_volts
_196.pdf>
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/28/12
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Modifying 12V LED Strip Lighting to work in 24/28V
Aircraf
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jul 30, 2012
Wrong polarity...Rookie mistake see attached correction....
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379571#379571
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/modify_led_strip_lighting_for_24_28_volts_reva_199.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Using LEDs in Series
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jul 30, 2012
> This raises a good question: is it okay to light a strip of LEDs by just wiring
them in series in a quantity such that each LED sees the appropriate voltage
drop? This would seem to eliminate the (admittedly small) energy loss from heating
up resistors. On the other hand, failure of one LED would darken the whole
string. Thoughts?Dan
Great questionand one that needs a proper answer.
LEDs have a characteristic called Forward Voltage (or Vf). This means that the
LED will not light until the voltage across it exceeds the Vf. This voltage is
usually small , perhaps 2Vf and depends on the diodes materials of construction.
The diode itself follows Ohms Law V=IR (or E=IR) when the voltage is above
the Vf.
Lets see how this works:
Put a common LED across a 12V source, and the current will be extremely large,
since 12V/~0 Ohms=Huge current. Now we have to understand that the battery or
source of power and the wires, etc. have some small resistance, so the current
is not quite infinite, but some very large value. (Ka-blam.) But the LED lowers
the voltage by its forward voltage (here 2 Vf). Even so 12V-2 Vf =10V and 10V/~0
Ohms is still huge.
So we have the bright idea that we can simply use 6 x 2 Vf LEDs, we can get:
12V-2Vf -2Vf -2 Vf -2Vf -2 Vf -2Vf = 0 volts/~0=hmmmmm. The LEDs in this case are
each at the voltage where they can almost light. But this is no good for anybody.
If we use 5 x 2V LEDs, then 12V-2V-2V-2V-2V-2V= 2V/~0=Current (probably
excessive) that is dependent only upon the residual resistance and true source
voltage of the circuit. Furthermore it depends on the LEDs Vf being exact and
independent of all outside influenceswhich it is most certainly not. Additionally
if you build a circuit where the LEDs are on the hairy edge of lighting,
dimming them is problematic.
What to do, what to do? Add a resistor to the string of LEDs If we use 5 x 2Vf,
and want a current of 30 mA, then 12V-2Vf -2Vf -2Vf -2Vf-2Vf =2V/.030A=67 Ohms.
This 67 Ohm resistor swamps any likely source resistance (which is usually
just a few Ohms), and doesnt allow for much slump in the voltage source (10V and
these LEDs are off) The resistor needs to be a wattage of at least I^2 X R=0.030A
X 0.030A X 67 Ohms=0.06 Wattsvery small in this case but the wattage calculation
of LED current-limiting resistors is important and frequently neglected.
Additional note: The voltage source can be as large as one likeseven kilovoltsbut
the resistor must be suitable for the voltage.
Additional note: Vf is not a parallel-is-lower type of characteristic. Vf values
sum in series, but do not sum in parallel, exactly like batteries! This makes
putting banks of LEDs in series and parallel together a practical approach.
Conclusion: When using LEDs in a string, the current limiting resistor must have
a high enough value to make ignoring the source resistance reasonable, and allow
for dimming capability headroom as desired.
Eric M. Jones, Perihelion Design, 07/30/12
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379593#379593
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2012
Subject: Re: Using LEDs in Series
From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
>
> LEDs in series is not as potentially problematic as incandescents in
> series. Incandescent bulbs are relatively delicate and short lived as they
> are a heater that emits light. The life of an LED that is driven at it's
> rated current (not over driven) and properly heat sinked (in the case of
> high brightness LEDs >1W) is tens of thousands of hours. In the developing
> industry of SSL (solid state lighting) it is common practice to series
> connect LEDs. In most cases this is preferred as the current is held
> constant and the voltage is varied depending on the number of LEDs in the
> string (as Eric has described). If you are driving high output devices >1W
> you will need to use a constant current driver. You will find that as you
> limit current on these higher output devices a limiting resistor will
> dissipate considerable power, much more than the LED.
>
Chris Stone
RV-8
Newberg, OR
>
> > This raises a good question: is it okay to light a strip of LEDs by just
> wiring them in series in a quantity such that each LED sees the appropriate
> voltage drop? This would seem to eliminate the (admittedly small) energy
> loss from heating up resistors. On the other hand, failure of one LED would
> darken the whole string. Thoughts?Dan
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using LEDs in Series
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jul 30, 2012
One last thing:
In many cases a simple current-regulated power supply is all you need to drive
series/parallel LEDs. This also has the advantage of being essentially noise free.
I sell an LED tail light where I used a tiny switching power supply but never
could stop the noise (Bob N. has a solution to this...but it is a little
complicated) The problem was particularly bad because the LED is in the tail...and
frequently so are the antennas. So I changed to a simple current-regulated
supply that is a little inefficient, but stone-silent.
I have no doubt that there are switching supplies that are very quiet, too.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379610#379610
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2012
From: Jerome Sipple <jds(at)taxesplusllc.com>
Subject: HUD for GA aircraft
Just a fyi about an interesting blurb I saw in a gizmag email today
about a new heads up display for GA aircraft. I have no connection with
them, just passing along the info.
PAT Avionics shows G-HULP heads-up-display system for recreational aircraft
http://www.gizmag.com/pat-avionics-hud-recreational-aircraft/23477/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=a4a140692e-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email
Jerry Sipple
Cozy MkIV project
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Using LEDs in Series
Eric, a "simple current regulated power supply is nothing more than an acti
ve circuit providing variable resistance to keep the current constant while
the applied voltage fluctuates. -This means that power is dissipated in
its "variable resistance circuit, usually a transistor in its active state.
A switched current regulator, on the other hand, keeps the switching transi
stors in their on-off states with power dissipated mostly during the switch
ing time when they're in the active state. -This has the disadvantage of
generating transients and harmonics which may bleed into the wrong places.
Do you have a magical circuit that somehow doesn't generate RF interference
and also doesn't dissipate very much power?
Thanks.
Henador Titzoff
--- On Mon, 7/30/12, Eric M. Jones wrote:
From: Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Using LEDs in Series
Date: Monday, July 30, 2012, 11:06 AM
et>
One last thing:
In many cases a simple current-regulated power supply is all you need to dr
ive series/parallel LEDs. This also has the advantage of being essentially
noise free. I sell an LED tail light where I used a tiny switching power su
pply but never could stop the noise (Bob N. has a solution to this...but it
is a little complicated) The problem was particularly bad because the LED
is in the tail...and frequently so are the antennas. So I changed to a simp
le current-regulated supply that is a little inefficient, but stone-silent.
I have no doubt that there are switching supplies that are very quiet, too.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379610#379610
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2012
Subject: book
From: Gordon Parker <gptailwind(at)gmail.com>
Bob: Thanks for all the good info that comes thru. I would like to
purchase your book but cannot locate how to do it. Could you help thanks.
Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using LEDs in Series
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jul 30, 2012
> Do you have a magical circuit that somehow doesn't generate RF interference and
also doesn't dissipate very much power? Thanks. Henador Titzoff
If I did, I wouldn't be posting here. I'd have my jet parked on my private Caribbean
Island. But I'd invite everybody over for a Margarita.
Seriously, there are two kinds of power supplies...Digital and Analog. ALL the
digital stuff makes noise, ALL the analog stuff dissipates power. Is there some
magical in-between*? Probably not, but the digital stuff can be made arbitrarily
close to noise-free with really good design. This usually involves knowing
what frequency spectrum you can use for switching...something that won't interfere.
(*Filters are almost all analog...but here I mean the active regulation element)
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379626#379626
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2012
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: HUD for GA aircraft
The big deal about HUDs is that they are focused at infinity with some
fancy (heavy) optics. That way you look out the window and everything is
in focus, data/target/bad guys laid on top of the scenery. This looks
like a see through LCD (or similar), focussed on the plate. I'm not sure
that would of huge benefit as you would be continually be re-focussing
between the plate and the scenery. So $5000 for something that is only
of real use when attacking those pesky ground targets, and then
requiring a lot of focus shifting. It would be interesting to know what
kind of lag there is between the world moving and the depiction on the
glass responding - if it is more that 100ms (that is 0.1 seconds) then
it is too slow to be of much use and will only be a hindrance.
Thanks for posting.
Peter
On 30/07/2012 19:45, Jerome Sipple wrote:
> Just a fyi about an interesting blurb I saw in a gizmag email today
> about a new heads up display for GA aircraft. I have no connection
> with them, just passing along the info.
>
> PAT Avionics shows G-HULP heads-up-display system for recreational
> aircraft
>
> http://www.gizmag.com/pat-avionics-hud-recreational-aircraft/23477/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=a4a140692e-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email
>
> Jerry Sipple
> Cozy MkIV project
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: book
At 03:24 PM 7/30/2012, you wrote:
>Bob: Thanks for all the good info that comes thru. I would like to
>purchase your book but cannot locate how to do it. Could you
>help thanks. Gordon
My website at
http://tinyurl.com/89kaepk
. . . has an expanded information set that
augments the book. There's also an catalog/
order page at:
http://tinyurl.com/36e7ddd
where you can enter an order for the book.
Thanks for asking.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Latching Relay Redux
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2012
I received this email today from Chuck (quoted below) in reference to my circuit
"Contactor PWM.pdf " to reduce contactor holding current.
http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=32370
> Hello Joe
> I built the circuit with one change. I replaced R1 with an adjustable 0-25k ohm
pot. Works great, just dial in the PWM for the right duty cycle with R1 for
the particular contactor being used.
> Thanks Chuck
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379655#379655
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Using LEDs in Series
Therein lies another problem, Eric. For a switching regulator (digital) tha
t is "noise free with really good design," you say that it involves knowing
what frequency spectrum you can use for switching ... something that won't
interfere. -As diverse as our airplanes are, with several systems and wi
th ubiquitous installation techniques and paths, how does one design a nois
e free switching regulator? -The only way I can think of is to design it
with passive filtering and packaging methods such that radiated and conduct
ed EMI is reduced to something extremely low. This would also involve exten
sive testing to verify the low EMI. That kind of design and testing would c
ost a pretty peso.
Seems to me the safest way to go is an active linear regulator with a suffi
cient back plate to dissipate the heat.
Henador Titzoff
--- On Mon, 7/30/12, Eric M. Jones wrote:
From: Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Using LEDs in Series
Date: Monday, July 30, 2012, 1:42 PM
et>
> Do you have a magical circuit that somehow doesn't generate RF interferen
ce and also doesn't dissipate very much power? Thanks. Henador Titzoff
If I did, I wouldn't be posting here. I'd have my jet parked on my private
Caribbean Island. But I'd invite everybody over for a Margarita.
Seriously, there are two kinds of power supplies...Digital and Analog. ALL
the digital stuff makes noise, ALL the analog stuff dissipates power. Is th
ere some magical in-between*? Probably not, but the digital stuff can be ma
de arbitrarily close to noise-free with really good design. This usually in
volves knowing what frequency spectrum you can use for switching...somethin
g that won't interfere.
(*Filters are almost all analog...but here I mean the active regulation ele
ment)
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379626#379626
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: What guage wire for alternator to bus bar
From: "kmiller" <kandd.miller(at)hetnet.nl>
Date: Jul 31, 2012
sorry ( i am a newbie to this forum ) if this is already answered else where,
but i would like to know the minimum gauge wire i should use for a 60amp alternator
(15V) to the Bus bar which is 5ft away. In normal operation max current
draw in flight would be 12 amps ( landing lights , nav lights, radio, transponder,
solenoids)
In addition, (and this may seem like a silly idea), but I actually want to limit
the maximum current that could go into my lithium Ion Phosphate battery immediately
after start up to say 10 amps, how would I go about this ? Currently
it is drawing max amps out of the alternator for the rotation speed (1200
rpm) for a few minutes, and I think this was the reason for my alternator drive
coupling slipping.
Keith
--------
KIS owner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379681#379681
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using LEDs in Series
From: dfritzj <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 31, 2012
Thanks for the in-depth answer, Eric. It sounds like I should stick to a more classic
approach. I didn't like the idea of a whole set of lights going out for
one failure anyway (too many bad Christmas-tree memories...)
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Latching Relay Redux
At 09:07 PM 7/30/2012, you wrote:
>
>I received this email today from Chuck (quoted below) in reference
>to my circuit "Contactor PWM.pdf " to reduce contactor holding current.
>http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=32370
>
> > Hello Joe
> > I built the circuit with one change. I replaced R1 with an
> adjustable 0-25k ohm pot. Works great, just dial in the PWM for the
> right duty cycle with R1 for the particular contactor being used.
> > Thanks Chuck
I recommend that the power saving duty cycle
be set for not less than 50%. This cuts average
voltage to contactor by 50% . . . hence average
current by 50% and total power dissipated by
75%.
While a 12v contactor will stay energized at
voltages of 2v or below, you want to make sure
that the contactor stays closed down to battery
end of life at 10.5 volts or so. 50% at 14 volts
with alternator running gives you 7 volts to hold
the contactor . . . 10.5 translates to 5.25 volts
or thereabouts . . . probably as low as you want
to go. 75% reduction in lost energy is pretty
substantial if you're in a battery-only operational
mode . . . or struggling to make the most of an
8A alternator.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Using LEDs in Series
At 09:58 PM 7/30/2012, you wrote:
>Therein lies another problem, Eric. For a switching regulator
>(digital) that is "noise free with really good design," you say that
>it involves knowing what frequency spectrum you can use for
>switching ... something that won't interfere.
Switching regulators are ubiquitous and definitely
here to stay. ALL of the accessories that trumpet
10-30 volt supply inputs are fitted with such
power supplies.
Operating frequency for such supplies is never
'selected' to be compatible with the operating
environment. It's selected as a trade-off for
for the components selected to achieve maximum
efficiency at rated load.
After design goals for efficiency are achieved, then
careful board layout for controlling aperture
area (radiation concerns) and good management
of RF grounds (conduction concerns) and
dv/dt limiting (both concerns) will minimize
any necessary filtering and shielding to
meet DO-160 emissions limits.
Anyone who has done this exercise a couple
of times will never again be surprised in the lab
with failure of a new design to meet emissions
limits. It's like learning to bake cakes.
After my first few passes through the vibration
immunity testing, I never again shook a component
of a board . . . it's that 'learning curve' thingy.
The filter I crafted for the BuckPucks was
a brute force endeavor to fix a problem in
systems that were already under construction
and parts were on hand. The filter may be
more than was really necessary . . . but it
proved to be adequate to the task. A detailed
study in the RFI lab might show that a simpler
filter would do . . . but given the small
volume of sales for this particular LED drive
solution, it hardly justifies the expense of
a finely tuned development effort.
The BuckPuck was never intended for use in
an aircraft EMC environment else it would not
have been built that way. Some of the HID lamp
supplies I've played with are similarly burdened
with EMC issues for aircraft. That doesn't mean
that any of these devices were "poorly designed",
it only means that the customer base for thousands
of units don't care that the device going into their
boat, motorcycle or hot-rod is unsuited to airplanes.
In the OBAM aviation world, we are a primo filter
for searching out and identifying the best that
folks know how to do. But it's a fine demonstration
of the need for caveat emptor . . . give it a try
in low risk experiments and report findings to
the group. If a short-fall in performance is
noted, then try something else . . . or modify
the product (such as the filter board for the
BuckPucks). In any case, the ultimate goodness
of the device and the system in fits is up to
us and NOT the designer of the device who probably
never envisioned his work product going into
an airplane . . . and would probably rather that
it did not.
It used to be that a phone call to Gates about
v-belts had to be made in 'disguise' . . . if
you mentioned that you were working on an airplane,
the standard vociferous response was "our products
are not intended for use on aircraft" . . . i.e.
"you're on your own my friend".
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: What guage wire for alternator to bus bar
At 07:04 AM 7/31/2012, you wrote:
sorry ( i am a newbie to this forum ) if this is already answered
else where, but i would like to know the minimum gauge wire i should
use for a 60amp alternator (15V) to the Bus bar which is 5ft away.
In normal operation max current draw in flight would be 12 amps (
landing lights , nav lights, radio, transponder, solenoids)
6AWG would be good, 4AWG welding cable is
readily available, inexpensive and would
be better.
In addition, (and this may seem like a silly idea), but I actually
want to limit the maximum current that could go into my lithium Ion
Phosphate battery immediately after start up to say 10 amps, how
would I go about this ? Currently it is drawing max amps out of
the alternator for the rotation speed (1200 rpm) for a few minutes,
and I think this was the reason for my alternator drive coupling slipping.
We need more information here. Your alternator drive
system should be designed to function at the alternator's
rated output. In other words, if it slips under some
conditions of loading, then the answer is to fix the
drive system, not reduce the load.
Where does the 1200 rpm number come from . . . prop RPM?
What's the alternator RPM at this time?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Latching Relay Redux
Is that 75% power reduction correct??
I would have guessed that a 50% duty cycle gave full voltage and full
current for 50% of the time in a pulsed resistance circuit resulting in
a 50% power reduction. Not sure about an inductive coil contactor though.
Just asking but intuitively I would not have averaged the voltage and
applied the I squared power calculation to this.
Ken
On 01/08/2012 9:02 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> At 09:07 PM 7/30/2012, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> I received this email today from Chuck (quoted below) in reference to
>> my circuit "Contactor PWM.pdf " to reduce contactor holding current.
>> http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=32370
>>
>> > Hello Joe
>> > I built the circuit with one change. I replaced R1 with an
>> adjustable 0-25k ohm pot. Works great, just dial in the PWM for the
>> right duty cycle with R1 for the particular contactor being used.
>> > Thanks Chuck
>
> I recommend that the power saving duty cycle
> be set for not less than 50%. This cuts average
> voltage to contactor by 50% . . . hence average
> current by 50% and total power dissipated by
> 75%.
>
> While a 12v contactor will stay energized at
> voltages of 2v or below, you want to make sure
> that the contactor stays closed down to battery
> end of life at 10.5 volts or so. 50% at 14 volts
> with alternator running gives you 7 volts to hold
> the contactor . . . 10.5 translates to 5.25 volts
> or thereabouts . . . probably as low as you want
> to go. 75% reduction in lost energy is pretty
> substantial if you're in a battery-only operational
> mode . . . or struggling to make the most of an
> 8A alternator.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Latching Relay Redux
At 10:20 AM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
Is that 75% power reduction correct??
I would have guessed that a 50% duty cycle gave full voltage and full
current for 50% of the time in a pulsed resistance circuit resulting
in a 50% power reduction. Not sure about an inductive coil contactor though.
Just asking but intuitively I would not have averaged the voltage and
applied the I squared power calculation to this.
-----------
Excellent question . . . and yes, consideration of
contactor inductance paralleled with a diode
is critical to the analysis.
When to the bench and set this up:
Emacs!
This test setup produced the following data:
Emacs!
If I go to 100% duty cycle, this El Cheeso,
Stancore/RBM contactor draws 0.9 amps 14.6 volts.
Dynamically, the coil current (Yellow trace) shows
some ripple at the switching frequency but averages
just under 0.5 Amp.
In the mean time, the power supply is showing a
load of just 0.21 amps or about 25% of the full-on
current draw.
If I put a 15 ohm resistor in place of the\
contactor, the 100% current goes to the expected
1 amp. At 50% duty cycle, the peak current is still
1 amp with average current falling to the predicted
0.5A . . . hence 50% duty cycle produces only 50%
reduction in power in the resistive circuit.
The L/R time constant of the inductive circuit
prevents achievement of full current during limited
on-time. The diode prevents current from falling
to zero during off-time.
After one hour, the outside temperature of the
contactor was not too hot to sustained touch . . .
Waayyy cooler than contactor operatied at 100%.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Using LEDs in Series
I have been experimenting with a product available
off eBay that offers 300, .05 x .05 LED's mounted
to a 3/8" wide x 16 foot flexible etched circuit
strip.
http://tinyurl.com/c33w25o
The leds are wired in paralleled series-clusters of
3 devices and a 150 ohm resistor. Here's a 2-cluster
segment of this product . . .
Emacs!
You can cut the strip every three devices and attach new
power leads at the solder pads visible in the photo.
I'm going to be using about 80 feet of this product in
my kitchen to put double rows of ceiling accent lighting high up,
double rows to replace recessed canister lights over the
counters and a third twin-row installation under the cabinets
for work lighting. The double-rows will be wired in series to run
off 24 volt supplies in the walls. My present lighting
is fraught with hot-spots from 11 different fixtures with
no accent lighting on a budget of about 700 watts. The working
end of my kitchen will be nicely lighted for both appearance
and working illumination on a power budget of about 175
watts total. This technique produces very wide-angle
illumination that is virtually shadow free.
The strips are fitted with peel and stick adhesive. I'm
going to use 3/4" wide strips of Formica to assemble one-
piece lighting assemblies that make it easy to get the
rows installed straight while laying on my back under
a cabinet.
The light output from these devices is very good. I suspect
that one could put a single strip of this product on the
under side of a glare shield and get more than enough
light . . . with devices easily dimmed. Due to the
series wiring of three, 3-volt devices, you would want
to control dimming with a series resistance or an
adjustable current supply like a Buck-Puck. Ten of
these clusters would give you about 30 leds and a max
bright current draw of 300 mA. A constant voltage
dimmer like B&C sells COULD be modified to have minimum
brightness occur at 9 volts instead of the present
4 volts. In any case, This product offers a host of
illumination opportunities not the least of which is
your airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
Date: Aug 01, 2012
What would be considered best practice for installation of the large
electrolytic capacitor used to filter the output of a PM alternator:
Mount it on the hot side of the firewall and protect the occupants
Mount it on the cool side of the firewall and protect the capacitor
Would appreciate any speculations, -john-
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
Evenin', John,
Good timing for this question! Just finished installing mine
last week! And no speculation in my case...
I put mine inside, behind the passenger's head (Long EZ...pusher
engine not as bad as it sounds....a headrest pad and a couple of
canopy braces protect the passenger from the electronics on the
inside of the firewall) mainly because the installation
instructions with the B&C alternator specifically said NOT to
mount the cap on the engine side of the firewall because of the
heat there! Guess the passenger is less important than the
alternator!;-)
Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
-----------------------------------------------------------------
On 8/1/2012 5:57 PM, John Loram wrote:
> What would be considered best practice for installation of the
> large electrolytic capacitor used to filter the output of a PM
> alternator:
> Mount it on the hot side of the firewall and protect the occupants
> Mount it on the cool side of the firewall and protect the capacitor
> Would appreciate any speculations, -john-
> *
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
At 04:57 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
>What would be considered best practice for installation of the large
>electrolytic capacitor used to filter the output of a PM alternator:
>
>Mount it on the hot side of the firewall and protect the occupants
>
>Mount it on the cool side of the firewall and protect the capacitor
>
>Would appreciate any speculations, -john-
It's utility is limited. See in particular,
the second page of
http://tinyurl.com/cz7ekrf
even with no capacitor, the noises are
well under Mil-STD-704 limits for DC
power systems. So mounting it 'cool'
probably bodes best for service life
and has little effect on system
performance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
Date: Aug 01, 2012
Hmmmm... so why do we use this cap?
-john-
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best
practices
At 04:57 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
What would be considered best practice for installation of the large
electrolytic capacitor used to filter the output of a PM alternator:
Mount it on the hot side of the firewall and protect the occupants
Mount it on the cool side of the firewall and protect the capacitor
Would appreciate any speculations, -john-
It's utility is limited. See in particular,
the second page of
http://tinyurl.com/cz7ekrf
even with no capacitor, the noises are
well under Mil-STD-704 limits for DC
power systems. So mounting it 'cool'
probably bodes best for service life
and has little effect on system
performance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using LEDs in Series
From: mapratherid <mapratherid(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 01, 2012
This looks pretty cool Bob. But I'm picky about color temp. Any idea what Ke
lvin color you'll end up with?
Regards,
Matt-
On Aug 1, 2012, at 1:29 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelec
tric.com> wrote:
> I have been experimenting with a product available
> off eBay that offers 300, .05 x .05 LED's mounted
> to a 3/8" wide x 16 foot flexible etched circuit
> strip.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/c33w25o
>
> The leds are wired in paralleled series-clusters of
> 3 devices and a 150 ohm resistor. Here's a 2-cluster
> segment of this product . . .
>
> <1839fa0.jpg>
>
> You can cut the strip every three devices and attach new
> power leads at the solder pads visible in the photo.
>
> I'm going to be using about 80 feet of this product in
> my kitchen to put double rows of ceiling accent lighting high up,
> double rows to replace recessed canister lights over the
> counters and a third twin-row installation under the cabinets
> for work lighting. The double-rows will be wired in series to run
> off 24 volt supplies in the walls. My present lighting
> is fraught with hot-spots from 11 different fixtures with
> no accent lighting on a budget of about 700 watts. The working
> end of my kitchen will be nicely lighted for both appearance
> and working illumination on a power budget of about 175
> watts total. This technique produces very wide-angle
> illumination that is virtually shadow free.
>
> The strips are fitted with peel and stick adhesive. I'm
> going to use 3/4" wide strips of Formica to assemble one-
> piece lighting assemblies that make it easy to get the
> rows installed straight while laying on my back under
> a cabinet.
>
> The light output from these devices is very good. I suspect
> that one could put a single strip of this product on the
> under side of a glare shield and get more than enough
> light . . . with devices easily dimmed. Due to the
> series wiring of three, 3-volt devices, you would want
> to control dimming with a series resistance or an
> adjustable current supply like a Buck-Puck. Ten of
> these clusters would give you about 30 leds and a max
> bright current draw of 300 mA. A constant voltage
> dimmer like B&C sells COULD be modified to have minimum
> brightness occur at 9 volts instead of the present
> 4 volts. In any case, This product offers a host of
> illumination opportunities not the least of which is
> your airplane.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
At 06:45 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
>Hmmmm... so why do we use this cap?
>
Now you done it . . . let's see if I recall.
I think I first saw it used on a power distribution
diagrams for some Rotax powered ultra-lights
back when I first started working in OBAM
aviation. Shucks . . . the rectifiers of AC
to DC power supplies had filter capacitors
on them . . . why not the rectified ac output
of a PM alternator?
The idea was attractive, only the numbers were
poorly understood. If you push 1 amp into a
1 Farad capacitor, you get a 1 volt per second
rate of rise in voltage. 10 amps is 10 volts
per second. Okay, how about a 1 microfarad
capacitor? The rise is 1 million times faster
or 10M volts per second. Now make the capacitor
20,000 times bigger and the voltage rise rate
drops by a factor of 20K or 500 volts per second.
Okay, the ripple period in the traces I published
for 4000 rpm was 7.5 milliseconds. .0075 x 500
= 3.75 volts is the best ripple reduction we might
expect from 20KF on a 10A machine. As you can see
from page 2 trace, the pk-pk excursions are already
below 400 mv. already 10X better than what we might expect
with but with no capacitor. To cut that to say, 40 mV
(nice anc quiet comparatively) we'd need a capacitor
100 times 20,000 or 2 Farads.
I was startled by the test results with the SD-8
on B&C's alternator stand. There was little or no
observable effect at ripple frequency for adding
the capacitor.
Yeah, we can buy such a critter but it's big,
heavy, expensive and goes toward an unnecessary
refinement of the system.
We know that a 3-phase alternator has about 5%
pk-pk ripple (0.75 volts on a 15v system)
plus transients. How many Farads would it take
to smooth say a 100A machine? The single phase
PM alternators like the SD-8 are obviously worse
but battery alone combined with loads at or
near max ratings have more smoothing effects than
the capacitor.
Given the physical impracticality of seeing
such pristine power, complimentary standards
and design goals were adopted to say (in Mil-
STD-704) that a 28v system can have 1 VRMS (3+
volts pk-pk) noise from 1 to 5K Hertz and
tapering off each side.
http://tinyurl.com/78kwfk8
1/2 that value for a 14v system.
The complimentary DO-160 design goals tell us
to EXPECT this kind of trash on the bus and
design to live with it.
The capacitor doesn't hurt anything and if
you have a particularly bad set of rectifier
switching transients (or similar fast rise
stuff elsewhere in the system, the 20-20K
computer grade capacitor will reduce the
effects of that stimulus.
Suffice it to say that MOST pilots now flying
such capacitors on their PM alternator installations
would notice nothing from the cockpit if that
capacitor were removed.
Radios and audio systems need really clean power
and the qualified designer provides smoothing
internally.
Emacs!
Our audio isolation amplifier design uses the LM317
to provide a smooth source of +8 volts to run the
circuitry.
As a general rule, the kinds of stimulus that benefits
from any sort of bus voltage filtering is fast-rise
transients at a ripple-current rate. Folks mistakenly
believe their inductor/capacitor or just a capacitor
is bypassing AUDIO frequency energy when in fact, it's
high frequency (fast transients) at the audio rate.
As the numbers above suggest, there's no practical way
to filter alternator ripple from the bus. The snow-mobile
engines with lighting coils converted to electrical
system alternators may well have benefited from the
use of such capacitors . . . depends on vulnerabilities
inherent in their electro-whizzies. Our electro-whizzies
are suited by design to live in the world of trashy
busses.
This is why switchmode power supplies can be so small
when delivering outputs in the tens of amps . . . their
operating frequencies (hence ripple frequency) is quite
high which allows smaller capacitors and inductors to
do the same degree of smoothing.
You can leave the cap out and see if you hear any
alternator whine in the audio . . . odds are that you
will not.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Using LEDs in Series
At 08:13 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
>This looks pretty cool Bob. But I'm picky about color temp. Any idea
>what Kelvin color you'll end up with?
You can select for cool, pure, or warm white colors
when you order. Given the cheapness of excess
brightness for you can probably do some shading with
theater lighting gels.
I had to match some lighting colors in incandescent
lamps about 25 years ago at Videmation. A local
theater supply store had every color hue and density
imaginable in gels for about $2 a sheet. We fiddled
with the filters until we got it right.
In my kitchen I'll be using the pure whites and
letting colors reflected from surfaces set the
mood. At Cessna, blue-white post lighting was a
high dollar option for panel illumination. You
could get the same thing by putting the appropriate
gel over the lamps.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
Date: Aug 01, 2012
So we're not trying to control the bandwidth of the regulator loop with the
cap? Does the battery do that? Guess I don't really know what the frequency
response of a lead-acid battery is. Probably dependent on the state of
charge and the condition of the battery. And the load varies all over the
place, both real and imaginary components.... What would it look like with
and without the cap if the battery were out of the loop? ... Scary!
I'm running 3 phase (old Jab 3300).
Once I get this thing fired up I'll run some tests and let you know what
happens...
Just thinking out loud, -john-
p.s. ran into a message the other day that you wrote back in 2007. Said you
worked for H.L Yoh as a civilian instructor in the early 60's... Same here!
At the Naval ETA school on Treasure Island. Wasn't that fun. I learned more
electronics in six months instructing those kids than four years of collage!
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 7:11 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best
practices
At 06:45 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
Hmmmm... so why do we use this cap?
Now you done it . . . let's see if I recall.
I think I first saw it used on a power distribution
diagrams for some Rotax powered ultra-lights
back when I first started working in OBAM
aviation. Shucks . . . the rectifiers of AC
to DC power supplies had filter capacitors
on them . . . why not the rectified ac output
of a PM alternator?
The idea was attractive, only the numbers were
poorly understood. If you push 1 amp into a
1 Farad capacitor, you get a 1 volt per second
rate of rise in voltage. 10 amps is 10 volts
per second. Okay, how about a 1 microfarad
capacitor? The rise is 1 million times faster
or 10M volts per second. Now make the capacitor
20,000 times bigger and the voltage rise rate
drops by a factor of 20K or 500 volts per second.
Okay, the ripple period in the traces I published
for 4000 rpm was 7.5 milliseconds. .0075 x 500
= 3.75 volts is the best ripple reduction we might
expect from 20KF on a 10A machine. As you can see
from page 2 trace, the pk-pk excursions are already
below 400 mv. already 10X better than what we might expect
with but with no capacitor. To cut that to say, 40 mV
(nice anc quiet comparatively) we'd need a capacitor
100 times 20,000 or 2 Farads.
I was startled by the test results with the SD-8
on B&C's alternator stand. There was little or no
observable effect at ripple frequency for adding
the capacitor.
Yeah, we can buy such a critter but it's big,
heavy, expensive and goes toward an unnecessary
refinement of the system.
We know that a 3-phase alternator has about 5%
pk-pk ripple (0.75 volts on a 15v system)
plus transients. How many Farads would it take
to smooth say a 100A machine? The single phase
PM alternators like the SD-8 are obviously worse
but battery alone combined with loads at or
near max ratings have more smoothing effects than
the capacitor.
Given the physical impracticality of seeing
such pristine power, complimentary standards
and design goals were adopted to say (in Mil-
STD-704) that a 28v system can have 1 VRMS (3+
volts pk-pk) noise from 1 to 5K Hertz and
tapering off each side.
http://tinyurl.com/78kwfk8
1/2 that value for a 14v system.
The complimentary DO-160 design goals tell us
to EXPECT this kind of trash on the bus and
design to live with it.
The capacitor doesn't hurt anything and if
you have a particularly bad set of rectifier
switching transients (or similar fast rise
stuff elsewhere in the system, the 20-20K
computer grade capacitor will reduce the
effects of that stimulus.
Suffice it to say that MOST pilots now flying
such capacitors on their PM alternator installations
would notice nothing from the cockpit if that
capacitor were removed.
Radios and audio systems need really clean power
and the qualified designer provides smoothing
internally.
Emacs!
Our audio isolation amplifier design uses the LM317
to provide a smooth source of +8 volts to run the
circuitry.
As a general rule, the kinds of stimulus that benefits
from any sort of bus voltage filtering is fast-rise
transients at a ripple-current rate. Folks mistakenly
believe their inductor/capacitor or just a capacitor
is bypassing AUDIO frequency energy when in fact, it's
high frequency (fast transients) at the audio rate.
As the numbers above suggest, there's no practical way
to filter alternator ripple from the bus. The snow-mobile
engines with lighting coils converted to electrical
system alternators may well have benefited from the
use of such capacitors . . . depends on vulnerabilities
inherent in their electro-whizzies. Our electro-whizzies
are suited by design to live in the world of trashy
busses.
This is why switchmode power supplies can be so small
when delivering outputs in the tens of amps . . . their
operating frequencies (hence ripple frequency) is quite
high which allows smaller capacitors and inductors to
do the same degree of smoothing.
You can leave the cap out and see if you hear any
alternator whine in the audio . . . odds are that you
will not.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Latching Relay Redux
At 12:30 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
>At 10:20 AM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
>
>Is that 75% power reduction correct??
>
>I would have guessed that a 50% duty cycle gave full voltage and
>full current for 50% of the time in a pulsed resistance circuit
>resulting in a 50% power reduction. Not sure about an inductive coil
>contactor though.
>
>Just asking but intuitively I would not have averaged the voltage
>and applied the I squared power calculation to this.
>-----------
P.S. just for grins, I thermocoupled the contactor
and let it stabilize for over an hour. Got a 120
F shell at 50% duty cycle for a 40F rise.
Let it run 100% duty cycle to stabilization and
got a 180F shell temperature for a 100F rise.
At that temperature, the 100% duty cycle current
draw was down to .6 amps from the cold start at
.9 amps. This copper temperature coefficient of
resistance rise in coil accounts for the less
than 4x temperature rise for 4x the dissipated power . . .
This means that a cooler contactor uses the power
you supply it more efficiently by running a
lower winding resistance. I.e. ampere turns
of magnetic flux that is more proportional to
applied voltage because the coil is cooler.
By the way, here's one approach to fabricating
a "contactor cooler" . . .
http://tinyurl.com/bolkoyc
On power up, both capacitors are discharged.
The 10uf holds down on the comparator pins
2,6 for about 100 milliseconds thus holding
the output pin 3 HI, turning the FED on hard
and energizing the contactor with full voltage.
The 10uF charges up in 100-200 milliseconds
thus allowing the 555 to 'hum' at about 200Hz
and 50% duty cycle. The diode and RC network
across the contactor coil should be mounted
right to the contactor terminals. All other
components can be remotely located but close
proximity to contactor is best.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
At 10:18 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
So we're not trying to control the bandwidth of the regulator loop
with the cap? Does the battery do that? Guess I don't really know
what the frequency response of a lead-acid battery is. Probably
dependent on the state of charge and the condition of the battery.
And the load varies all over the place, both real and imaginary
components.... What would it look like with and without the cap if
the battery were out of the loop? ... Scary!
http://tinyurl.com/bqa6q9p
Finely tuned loop dynamics with these regulators is wishful
thinking. Here's an exemplar schematic for a PM regulator:
http://tinyurl.com/bwomjjz
I split out the two functions (regulation and
warning light)
http://tinyurl.com/c8usyw2
http://tinyurl.com/c6doa97
As you can see in the v-reg schematic,
there are no reactive components that
would shape closed-loop response. A battery
is a very poor 'filter' . . . it delivers
energy at 12.5 and below . . . accepts
energy at 13.8 and above. That's about
1.3 volts of span where the battery is
dynamically 'unhooked'.
It stands to reason that the capacitor
would have the greatest effect when the
alternator set point was too low (under
14.5) and the system was lightly loaded.
I'm running 3 phase (old Jab 3300).
Interesting. I think your regulator is
still quite similar . . . it just adds
another diode/scr pair.
Once I get this thing fired up I'll run some tests and let you know
what happens...
I have a fast switching, dynamic load bank
I built for tests at HBC some years back.
It would be interesting to use it along
with a data acquisition system on the
test bench to explore the closed loop
response of these systems.
Just thinking out loud, -john-
p.s. ran into a message the other day that you wrote back in 2007.
Said you worked for H.L Yoh as a civilian instructor in the early
60's... Same here! At the Naval ETA school on Treasure Island. Wasn't
that fun. I learned more electronics in six months instructing those
kids than four years of collage!
You got that right! I was teaching in the
top 4 weeks of a 26 week school at Great
Lakes. I went to work on a Friday and they
handed me a syllabus for my first section
of students along with a copy of "the bible",
Termnan's Electrical Engineering Handbook
http://tinyurl.com/cbvvjx9
and said, "you get your first class of 20
next Monday." As long as I stayed a day ahead
of the class . . . things went well . . .
and yes, a lot of fun. After four or
so passes through the class materials and
figuring out a half dozen ways to explain each
concept, it sorta creeps into your DNA. There's
no better way to learn something than to
be chartered to teach it.
Do you have access to a fast data acquisition
system that you could hook to your bus for
some hard data gathering?
I've used cousins to this critter . . .
http://tinyurl.com/3jtrxx4
on several tasks at HBC with great results.
Being able to jump on an airplane and get
hard data in flight without having to involve
a dozen folks from the instrumentation lab
was a powerful tool.
You might consider getting one of these
and use it to graph some of the performance
qualities of your system. It would be a great
augmentation of my ripple studies.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
At 10:18 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
So we're not trying to control the bandwidth of the regulator loop
with the cap? Does the battery do that? Guess I don't really know
what the frequency response of a lead-acid battery is. Probably
dependent on the state of charge and the condition of the battery.
And the load varies all over the place, both real and imaginary
components.... What would it look like with and without the cap if
the battery were out of the loop? ... Scary!
http://tinyurl.com/bqa6q9p
Finely tuned loop dynamics with these regulators is wishful
thinking. Here's an exemplar schematic for a PM regulator:
http://tinyurl.com/bwomjjz
I split out the two functions (regulation and
warning light)
http://tinyurl.com/c8usyw2
http://tinyurl.com/c6doa97
As you can see in the v-reg schematic,
there are no reactive components that
would shape closed-loop response. A battery
is a very poor 'filter' . . . it delivers
energy at 12.5 and below . . . accepts
energy at 13.8 and above. That's about
1.3 volts of span where the battery is
dynamically 'unhooked'.
It stands to reason that the capacitor
would have the greatest effect when the
alternator set point was too low (under
14.5) and the system was lightly loaded.
I'm running 3 phase (old Jab 3300).
Interesting. I think your regulator is
still quite similar . . . it just adds
another diode/scr pair.
Once I get this thing fired up I'll run some tests and let you know
what happens...
I have a fast switching, dynamic load bank
I built for tests at HBC some years back.
It would be interesting to use it along
with a data acquisition system on the
test bench to explore the closed loop
response of these systems.
Just thinking out loud, -john-
p.s. ran into a message the other day that you wrote back in 2007.
Said you worked for H.L Yoh as a civilian instructor in the early
60's... Same here! At the Naval ETA school on Treasure Island. Wasn't
that fun. I learned more electronics in six months instructing those
kids than four years of collage!
You got that right! I was teaching in the
top 4 weeks of a 26 week school at Great
Lakes. I went to work on a Friday and they
handed me a syllabus for my first section
of students along with a copy of "the bible",
Termnan's Electrical Engineering Handbook
http://tinyurl.com/cbvvjx9
and said, "you get your first class of 20
next Monday." As long as I stayed a day ahead
of the class . . . things went well . . .
and yes, a lot of fun. After four or
so passes through the class materials and
figuring out a half dozen ways to explain each
concept, it sorta creeps into your DNA. There's
no better way to learn something than to
be chartered to teach it.
Do you have access to a fast data acquisition
system that you could hook to your bus for
some hard data gathering?
I've used cousins to this critter . . .
http://tinyurl.com/3jtrxx4
on several tasks at HBC with great results.
Being able to jump on an airplane and get
hard data in flight without having to involve
a dozen folks from the instrumentation lab
was a powerful tool.
You might consider getting one of these
and use it to graph some of the performance
qualities of your system. It would be a great
augmentation of my ripple studies.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
From: "Tundra10" <jpx(at)qenesis.com>
Date: Aug 02, 2012
So should the capacitor and 1K resistor be deleted from Z13/8 ?
Note 20 indicates the purpose of the capacitor is to smooth the voltage if the
battery is offline. However, there is no intentional way of disconnecting the
battery, and there are very few failures that could result in the battery being
disconnected while the SD-8 still remains connected to the battery bus.
In Z13/8 the SD-8 is only turned on in the event of a main alternator failure.
Maybe in this circumstance, a little noise in the audio is not significant to
the completion of the flight (assuming the capacitor actually helps in a given
installation).
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379872#379872
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
Date: Aug 02, 2012
Thank you for the schematics. Most instructive!
>
> p.s. ran into a message the other day that you wrote back in 2007.
> Said you worked for H.L Yoh as a civilian instructor in the
> early 60's... Same here! At the Naval ETA school on Treasure
> Island. Wasn't that fun. I learned more electronics in six
> months instructing those kids than four years of collage!
>
> You got that right! I was teaching in the
> top 4 weeks of a 26 week school at Great
> Lakes. I went to work on a Friday and they
> handed me a syllabus for my first section
> of students along with a copy of "the bible",
> Termnan's Electrical Engineering Handbook
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cbvvjx9
And thank you for Villard's Memoir. I loved reading every bit of it!
Like every self-respecting EE I have kept my copy of Terman.
>
> and said, "you get your first class of 20
> next Monday." As long as I stayed a day ahead
> of the class . . . things went well . . .
> and yes, a lot of fun. After four or
> so passes through the class materials and
> figuring out a half dozen ways to explain each
> concept, it sorta creeps into your DNA. There's
> no better way to learn something than to
> be chartered to teach it.
>
And in every other class you'd get one 'ringer'. A kid fresh out of
engineering school who would nail you to the chalk board at the slightest
slip-up!!! You either got those guys on your side right away or you were in
for some tough sledding!
> Do you have access to a fast data acquisition
> system that you could hook to your bus for
> some hard data gathering?
>
> I've used cousins to this critter . . .
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3jtrxx4
I have a couple of these first generation DI-148Us.
It will run at 11 KHz sampling rate on one channel.
Tell me more about your dynamic load bank. Sounds like just the ticket.
>...
> You might consider getting one of these
> and use it to graph some of the performance
> qualities of your system. It would be a great
> augmentation of my ripple studies.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
I'd be happy to contribute!
I'm probably a month away from first start and another month coming down off
the high!!, -john-
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
At 10:55 AM 8/2/2012, you wrote:
So should the capacitor and 1K resistor be deleted from Z13/8 ?
Don't delete anything. We're having a discussion
about the notion that data gathered on an SD-8 with
a 'scope about 10 years ago doesn't confirm legacy
beliefs about what a capacitor across a power supply
does for us.
This capacitor MAY have some value in fast, low
energy transient mitigation and/or regulation
dynamics. John and I will continue to ponder
"out loud on the List" but don't take any
hypothesis as cause to rise up and evict
your capacitor.
The capacitor AND 1K resistor are also participants
in the self excitation system.
Note 20 indicates the purpose of the capacitor is to smooth the
voltage if the battery is offline. However, there is no intentional
way of disconnecting the battery, and there are very few failures
that could result in the battery being disconnected while the SD-8
still remains connected to the battery bus.
In Z13/8 the SD-8 is only turned on in the event of a main alternator
failure. Maybe in this circumstance, a little noise in the audio is
not significant to the completion of the flight (assuming the
capacitor actually helps in a given installation).
Good questions/suppositions all . . . we'll
endeavor to sort it out with greater
clarity.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Extending thermocouple leads
From: "Radioflyer" <skyeyecorp(at)airpost.net>
Date: Aug 02, 2012
I think I understand how to do things right with thermocouples, but want to make
sure. I have a set of (GRT/EIS) J- type, CHT bayonet thermocouples. The 2 foot
leads are terminated from the factory in what I believe to be standard spade
terminals. I need to lengthen these leads about 12 feet to reach my MGL Avionics
quad CHT display instrument. So I plan to get some J-type wire, crimp on
some mating spade terminals and similarly terminate the other end very close to
the instrument. (One set of spades will be in the hot engine compartment and
the spades on the other end of the extension will be in the cabin.)
My understanding is that the parasitic couples at the spade terminals will be cancelled
out, so I should get accurate temp readings at the instrument. Correct?
Is it worth the trouble to search for stranded J-wire or is solid good enough?
--Jose
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379921#379921
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Extending thermocouple leads
At 11:27 PM 8/2/2012, you wrote:
I think I understand how to do things right with thermocouples, but
want to make sure. I have a set of (GRT/EIS) J- type, CHT bayonet
thermocouples. The 2 foot leads are terminated from the factory in
what I believe to be standard spade terminals. I need to lengthen
these leads about 12 feet to reach my MGL Avionics quad CHT display
instrument. So I plan to get some J-type wire, crimp on some mating
spade terminals and similarly terminate the other end very close to
the instrument. (One set of spades will be in the hot engine
compartment and the spades on the other end of the extension will be
in the cabin.)
My understanding is that the parasitic couples at the spade terminals
will be cancelled out, so I should get accurate temp readings at the
instrument. Correct?
Sort of . . .
What do the 'spade' terminals attach to?
The "wrong+wrong=right" thing applies only
when pairs of wrongness are applied to EACH
lead . . . not opposite leads. When thermocouple
gages of yore were brought to an instrument on
the panel, they too were terminated in ordinary
terminals onto studs at the back of the instrument
in the cockpit environment. These too introduced
small errors that were acceptable in the grand
scheme of things. A few degrees of error in hundreds
of degrees of reading.
Putting ring terminals onto a thermocouple at
the 'cold junction' or 'reference junction' end
of the wire introduces little error . . . the
hotter the environment of the polluting junctions,
the greater the absolute error . . . but the
percentage of error vis-a-vis local temperature
is about the same.
Ring terminals used to splice a t/c wire run
with a nut-n-screw would be an example of many
wrongs adding up to not-too-bad. But the single
spade on one end of each side will induce some
small errors.
Having offered all that, the maximum error you
might encounter is insignificant in this situation.
You're not going to make decisions based on a few
degrees of reading. It's departures from 'normal' and
trends that deserve your attention.
So don't fuss over the details too much . . .
Is it worth the trouble to search for stranded J-wire or is solid good enough?
From a measurement perspective, solid and stranded
can be interchanged and spliced in the same system.
You can get small quantities of a variety of t/c
wires from Omega at
http://tinyurl.com/cwnomt3
Their part number builder says they'll sell you
25' of TT-J-24S for $30.00
eBay may offer additional opportunities at
http://tinyurl.com/cr35ff4
I've got a bunch of thermocouple wire stashed in
boxes yet unpacked from the move . . . else I'd
offer to send you a hunk of something suited to
your task. But in the 105 weather I'm not inclined
to rummage around out in an un-conditioned part
of the shop!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: PM Alternator filter Capacitor - best practices
>And thank you for Villard's Memoir. I loved reading every bit of it!
>
>Like every self-respecting EE I have kept my copy of Terman.
>
>[]
>
I lost my copy during some move over the years. Thought
I might replace it from a used book store someday . . . have
you seen what they sell for now? Hang onto the copy you
have and be sure to include it in the accounting of
your retirement portfolio.
And in every other class you'd get one 'ringer'. A kid fresh out of
engineering school who would nail you to the chalk board at the
slightest slip-up!!! You either got those guys on your side right
away or you were in for some tough sledding!
I don't recall having encountered that from the
run-of-the-mill students. Most of my guys were fresh
out of boot-camp. I did have a chief who was re-upping
and wanting to expand his technological horizons. He
and I had an arm-wrestling match over my dismal record
for Friday High-Class honors . . . but that's another
story. He did very well in his studies and received
benefits befitting his due diligence.
>[]
>
>I have a couple of these first generation DI-148Us.
>It will run at 11 KHz sampling rate on one channel.
Cool! Let's do some good numbers gathering off your
ship's electrical system when it's appropriate.
>
>Tell me more about your dynamic load bank. Sounds like just the ticket.
Here's one I started for my shop some years ago but
when the project-of-need went away, it's been waiting
for a reason to finish it.
The one I built for HBC might still be there but
since it never got a corporate acquisition sticker
or tool number put on it, it's probably been pitched
by now. There's nobody left there who saw what it does
or how to use it.
[]
The thing was used to study the effects of rapid
load dump and onset for some led lighting supplies
in the Hawker 800. When the cabin lights 'flicker'
in a $14M airplane, the boss can only sit there an
fume that this crap doesn't happen in his $60K
automobile.
The notion was to excite the bus with repetitive
square-wave loads either manually by external
controls while gathering responses and/or trying
fixes elsewhere.
For our purposes, a 555 timer, a boss-hog fet
and a power resistor could be quickly brass-boarded
into a similarly useful fixture.
[]
This test fixture would apply/release a load
at some periodic rate (in this case about 0.5Hz)
to let you observe system response after
the event.
Your Dataq DAS in the single channel, fast
acquisition mode would do nicely to record
the event.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Extending thermocouple leads
From: "Radioflyer" <skyeyecorp(at)airpost.net>
Date: Aug 03, 2012
Bob, thanks for your reply. You asked what the spade terminals were attached to.
They are crimped on to the J wires of the thermocouple sensor. The wires are
red and white and one of them was magnetic.
You are right that a few degrees of error would not much matter for CHT readings.
I don't have a sense for how much error my "J-spade-J-spade-instrument" setup
would introduce, but if within say ten degrees then it would be ok. I just
want to be sure I can reliably tell that my cylinders are not exceeding max allowable
temperature.
--Jose
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379950#379950
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Extending thermocouple leads
At 01:51 PM 8/3/2012, you wrote:
>
>Bob, thanks for your reply. You asked what the spade terminals were
>attached to. They are crimped on to the J wires of the thermocouple
>sensor. The wires are red and white and one of them was magnetic.
Do the terminals terminate to a 'sensor' under
the cowl or to an instrument behind the panel?
>You are right that a few degrees of error would not much matter for
>CHT readings. I don't have a sense for how much error my
>"J-spade-J-spade-instrument" setup would introduce, but if within
>say ten degrees then it would be ok. I just want to be sure I can
>reliably tell that my cylinders are not exceeding max allowable temperature.
Sure. One way to check your instrument's
calibration with as-installed thermocouples is
to get one of those in-the-cup immersion heaters
for travel-coffee/tea and use it to raise a cup
of distilled or R/O water to boiling. You can
do this right next to the engine where you've removed
a cht sensor bulb and immerse it in the water.
Wait several minutes while the reading stabilizes.
Compare with boiling point of water at your
present atmospheric pressure conditions:
http://tinyurl.com/bmptwag
and you can see just how close the instrument
is to reading true at about 200F.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Date: Aug 04, 2012
Subject: Starter contactor leaking voltage
Thanks Bob, Gents, for the feedback on this. I have done it the way the
plans show, and you suggested, and put the starter contactor on the FW.
New question (yes, I'm building very slowly) - I have the Van's starter
contactor (Part Number = ES 24021) and when I apply 12v to the battery
connection, I get about 0.4v on the starter connection. This is before it
is energized. When I apply the 12v to the 'S' terminal, I get the full 12v
on the starter terminal.
Is it normal for some voltage to "leak" even when the device is "idle"? My
battery contactors don't do this, and I don't have another starter
contactor to test with.
Thanks,
Mickey
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Extending thermocouple leads
From: "Radioflyer" <skyeyecorp(at)airpost.net>
Date: Aug 04, 2012
The extension (thermocouple) wire pair would eventually connect to an instrument
on the panel in the cabin. So, Engine side: thermocouple--spades--J wire pair
extension--thru firewall. Then Cabin side: extension cont'd--spades--copper--instrument
on panel. The extension is 12 feet long because this is in a pusher
aircraft. Spades to copper to instrument because I can't connect the J type
thermocouples wires directly to the DB15 on the instrument.
What I'm thinking is that the parasitic couple between spades and thermocouple
wire pair in the hot engine side, and the other parasitic couple of thermocouple
wire pair and spades in the cooler cabin will not much affect the absolute
temp readings.
--Jose
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380062#380062
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starter contactor leaking voltage
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Aug 05, 2012
Theoretically there should be NO leakage through the starter contactor. But the
insulation used in the contactor is not perfect. There could be some insignificant
leakage. Digital voltmeters have a very high input impedance which allows
them to measure insignificant voltage. Try shorting the output terminal
to ground with your fingers of one hand while measuring the voltage. Or use an
old analog voltmeter which will give more meaningful measurements in this situation.
Or use a very small 12v test lamp, the type used for automotive instrument
illumination.
I do not think there is enough leakage to worry about.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380080#380080
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starter contactor leaking voltage
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 05, 2012
repost
As others have mentioned, the problem is in how you use your tools...like
the voltmeter.
Imagine that you have a voltmeter that is infinitely sensitive (infinite
impedance). Now it will measure the battery voltage even thru an open switch.
In fact, it will measure 500 volts between your belt buckle and your shoe laces.
And the top of your hat will be 1000 volts higher than the soles of your New
Balance sneakers. You can actually extract some tiny amount of power this way.
So meter impedance is not a lack of quality in a meter, it is a necessary
and useful characteristic of the measuring device. And in a solid state circuit
(like a diode), there will almost always be a voltage on the output that is
similar to the input voltage even when the meter is off. And in fact the "leakage
voltage" will not be able to light even the tiniest LED...so ignore it.
I once designed a Cmos circuit where somebody (okay, me...) forgot to add
the power trace to the IC. Years later, an inquisitive technician, tracing an
unrelated fault discovered it, but all the shipped product had worked just fine.
So just don't make voltage measurements like this.
See attached for a better way.
--------
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380088#380088
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/diode_test_745.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Starter contactor leaking voltage
New question (yes, I'm building very slowly) - I
have the Van's starter contactor (Part Number =
ES 24021) and when I apply 12v to the battery
connection, I get about 0.4v on the starter
connection. =C2 This is before it is energized. =C2
When I apply the 12v to the 'S' terminal, I get
the full 12v on the starter terminal.
Is it normal for some voltage to "leak" even when
the device is "idle"? =C2 My battery contactors
don't do this, and I don't have another starter contactor to test with.
Thanks,
Mickey
At 07:18 AM 8/5/2012, you wrote:
Theoretically there should be NO leakage through
the starter contactor. But the insulation used
in the contactor is not perfect. There could be
some insignificant leakage. Digital voltmeters
have a very high input impedance which allows
them to measure insignificant voltage. Try
shorting the output terminal to ground with your
fingers of one hand while measuring the
voltage. Or use an old analog voltmeter which
will give more meaningful measurements in this
situation. Or use a very small 12v test lamp,
the type used for automotive instrument illumination.
I do not think there is enough leakage to worry about.
Joe
My thoughts exactly. This thread illustrates
a measurement conundrum that has existed since
day one in the study and diagnosis of electron
flow. The ideal measurement technique should be
transparent to quantities being explored. The
earliest precision voltmeters (ammeters with resistors
in series) were excellent demonstrations of the
best-we-knew-how-to-do at the time.
Emacs!
Note the label at the bottom of the scale=plate that
says "1000 ohms per volt". This is another way of saying
that this instrument has a basic sensitivity of 1 milliampere
full scale and when making a reading on the 150 volt
scale, the instrument presents a "load" to the circuit
being measured of 1000 x 150 or 150,000 ohms. It will
"draw" 1 milliampere of current from the measurement node
at 150 volts.
These instruments were a grade trade off between
sensitivity, accuracy, linearity and calibration drift
due to temperature and age. But an instrument like
this is fitted with a 'mirrored scale'. The observer
lines up the pointer with the reflection of the pointer
so as to drive parallax error to zero. This instrument
could be both read and relied upon for readings with
certainty of 1% or better.
If you had measured the "output" from your open starter
contactor with such a device, no doubt the reading would
be zero . . . and commensurate with your expectations.
The day I got hired into Boeing (at $86/week) I
went down to Interstate Electronics and bought
a Triplett 630 multimeter. It was a 20,000 ohm/volt
instrument (50 microamp movement) and exemplary
technology for run-of-the-mill bench test
instruments. It replaced a 1000 ohm/volt meter
that somebody had given me some 5 years earlier.
I still have the 630. It was 20 times more sensitive
than the earlier instrument and offered accuracies
on the order of 2%.
But no doubt the Triplett would also say that
your contactor was working as expected.
Such devices were useless for many investigations into
the function of vacuum tubes. The source impedance of
many voltages of interest were so high that probing
the node with this voltmeter would also show zero
volts . . . and the circuit under test would cease
to function at all.
Probing through sensitive circuitry added new
requirements for sensitivity and isolation. This
was achieved with some form of amplification. A
exemplar instrument is shown here:
Emacs!
This Heathkit product has an input circuit that
looks like this:
Emacs!
Notice the voltage divider of resistors that total up to
more than 9 megohms. Notice too a 1 meg resistor built
into the probe. The input impedance for this instrument
is over 10 megohms. Further, probing a node with a
combination of DC volts of interest that also carries
some signal (perhaps even high frequency RF) is only
very slightly affected by the probe. This instrument
is several hundred times more sensitive than the
device at the top of the page.
This kind of instrument may also have produced an
anomalous reading in the de-energized condition.
Modern digital voltmeters have input impedances on
the order of 20 megohms. Further, they do not provide
any isolation for probe-effects when measuring 'busy
circuits'. I have crafted a x10 probe for my Fluke
multimeter from an low capacity, oscilloscope probe
to conduct the kinds of measurements I used to do
with my Heathkit VTVM. Also, I have some load resistors
I can stack onto the voltmeter's test lead jacks that
deliberately degrade instrument sensitivity so that
readings are not influenced by small leakages.
The point of this soliloquy is to remind us
that not all observations provide good data
. . . but all data can be filtered through a
healthy level of skepticism supported by an
understanding of the circuit under test along
with the measuring device's limits.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2012
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Extending thermocouple leads
You are absolutely correct. In fact, it may not affect the readings at all.
The way a thermocouple works is that any given metal will generate a voltage from
one end to the other if the temperature is different from one end to the other.
If one chooses a different metal for
a second wire it will generate a different voltage across its length. If one hooks
a meter between the two wires at one end it can be calibrated to read the
difference in temperature between the two
ends because the sum of the two outputs will vary with temperature. If there is
no difference in temperature between the two ends, there is no voltage generated
so no temperature reading displayed.
You can make all kinds of connections and add other materials between the two ends
and you will see no temperature reading as long there is no temperature difference.
Taking that one step further, if
there is no temperature difference between the each end of the things you add,
then, even if there is a temperature difference between the far end (cylinder
head) and the meter end, it will still read
correctly.
So, if a spade connection is the same temperature from end to end (which is pretty
likely since they are copper - a very good heat conductor) there will be no
net voltage generated across the
connection. Which means that the reading you get at the meter (or whatever you
are using to read the temperature) will still be the same as if you had no spade
connection.
Where you would get into trouble is if you add a long splice in the thermocouple
wire that is not thermocouple wire. For example if you add several feet of
copper wire to your too short thermocouple
wire. The likelihood of that being the same temperature at each end decreases
in proportion to the length of the extension.
Bottom line: You will likely see no difference in reading with or without the
spade and pin connections.
Dick Tasker
Radioflyer wrote:
>
> The extension (thermocouple) wire pair would eventually connect to an instrument
on the panel in the cabin. So, Engine side: thermocouple--spades--J wire pair
extension--thru firewall. Then Cabin side: extension cont'd--spades--copper--instrument
on panel. The extension is 12 feet long because this is in a pusher
aircraft. Spades to copper to instrument because I can't connect the J type
thermocouples wires directly to the DB15 on the instrument.
>
> What I'm thinking is that the parasitic couple between spades and thermocouple
wire pair in the hot engine side, and the other parasitic couple of thermocouple
wire pair and spades in the cooler cabin will not much affect the absolute
temp readings.
>
> --Jose
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380062#380062
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Date: Aug 05, 2012
Subject: Re: Starter contactor leaking voltage
Joe, Eric, Bob,
Thanks so much for the feedback - I tried the lamp, and of course it did
not light up. Also used an older analog instrument, and it showed no
indication of voltage. Thanks to your help and a bit of time reading up on
impedance, I have a better understanding what is happening here. I'm
really happy to have run across this "problem" as it allowed me to learn
some new stuff. Thanks again!
Regards,
Mickey
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> New question (yes, I'm building very slowly) - I have the Van's starter
> contactor (Part Number = ES 24021) and when I apply 12v to the battery
> connection, I get about 0.4v on the starter connection. =C3=82 This is be
fore it
> is energized. =C3=82 When I apply the 12v to the 'S' terminal, I get the
full
> 12v on the starter terminal.
>
> Is it normal for some voltage to "leak" even when the device is "idle"?
=C3=82
> My battery contactors don't do this, and I don't have another starter
> contactor to test with.
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
>
> At 07:18 AM 8/5/2012, you wrote:
m
> >
>
> Theoretically there should be NO leakage through the starter contactor.
> But the insulation used in the contactor is not perfect. There could be
> some insignificant leakage. Digital voltmeters have a very high input
> impedance which allows them to measure insignificant voltage. Try shorti
ng
> the output terminal to ground with your fingers of one hand while measuri
ng
> the voltage. Or use an old analog voltmeter which will give more
> meaningful measurements in this situation. Or use a very small 12v test
> lamp, the type used for automotive instrument illumination.
> I do not think there is enough leakage to worry about.
> Joe
>
> My thoughts exactly. This thread illustrates
> a measurement conundrum that has existed since
> day one in the study and diagnosis of electron
> flow. The ideal measurement technique should be
> transparent to quantities being explored. The
> earliest precision voltmeters (ammeters with resistors
> in series) were excellent demonstrations of the
> best-we-knew-how-to-do at the time.
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> Note the label at the bottom of the scale=plate that
> says "1000 ohms per volt". This is another way of saying
> that this instrument has a basic sensitivity of 1 milliampere
> full scale and when making a reading on the 150 volt
> scale, the instrument presents a "load" to the circuit
> being measured of 1000 x 150 or 150,000 ohms. It will
> "draw" 1 milliampere of current from the measurement node
> at 150 volts.
>
> These instruments were a grade trade off between
> sensitivity, accuracy, linearity and calibration drift
> due to temperature and age. But an instrument like
> this is fitted with a 'mirrored scale'. The observer
> lines up the pointer with the reflection of the pointer
> so as to drive parallax error to zero. This instrument
> could be both read and relied upon for readings with
> certainty of 1% or better.
>
> If you had measured the "output" from your open starter
> contactor with such a device, no doubt the reading would
> be zero . . . and commensurate with your expectations.
>
> The day I got hired into Boeing (at $86/week) I
> went down to Interstate Electronics and bought
> a Triplett 630 multimeter. It was a 20,000 ohm/volt
> instrument (50 microamp movement) and exemplary
> technology for run-of-the-mill bench test
> instruments. It replaced a 1000 ohm/volt meter
> that somebody had given me some 5 years earlier.
> I still have the 630. It was 20 times more sensitive
> than the earlier instrument and offered accuracies
> on the order of 2%.
>
> But no doubt the Triplett would also say that
> your contactor was working as expected.
>
> Such devices were useless for many investigations into
> the function of vacuum tubes. The source impedance of
> many voltages of interest were so high that probing
> the node with this voltmeter would also show zero
> volts . . . and the circuit under test would cease
> to function at all.
>
> Probing through sensitive circuitry added new
> requirements for sensitivity and isolation. This
> was achieved with some form of amplification. A
> exemplar instrument is shown here:
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> This Heathkit product has an input circuit that
> looks like this:
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
>
> Notice the voltage divider of resistors that total up to
> more than 9 megohms. Notice too a 1 meg resistor built
> into the probe. The input impedance for this instrument
> is over 10 megohms. Further, probing a node with a
> combination of DC volts of interest that also carries
> some signal (perhaps even high frequency RF) is only
> very slightly affected by the probe. This instrument
> is several hundred times more sensitive than the
> device at the top of the page.
>
> This kind of instrument may also have produced an
> anomalous reading in the de-energized condition.
>
> Modern digital voltmeters have input impedances on
> the order of 20 megohms. Further, they do not provide
> any isolation for probe-effects when measuring 'busy
> circuits'. I have crafted a x10 probe for my Fluke
> multimeter from an low capacity, oscilloscope probe
> to conduct the kinds of measurements I used to do
> with my Heathkit VTVM. Also, I have some load resistors
> I can stack onto the voltmeter's test lead jacks that
> deliberately degrade instrument sensitivity so that
> readings are not influenced by small leakages.
>
> The point of this soliloquy is to remind us
> that not all observations provide good data
> . . . but all data can be filtered through a
> healthy level of skepticism supported by an
> understanding of the circuit under test along
> with the measuring device's limits.
>
> **
>
> ** Bob . . .
>
--
Mickey Coggins
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Starter contactor leaking voltage
Eric,
=0A
=0AThis has nothing to do with aviation other than avionics are built with
ICs.- I would just like to know how not=0A including the power supply tra
ce from pin to circuitry allows the chip circuitry to work as advertised (d
atasheet)?- I've never heard of a chip that worked=0A without intended po
wer.- Since it was CMOS and CMOS is very =0Aconservative with power, did
it somehow derive its power from IO =0Asignals?
=0A
=0AYou must be an Analog Devices kind of guy. -I worked at Teradyne for s
everal years. It was a lot of fun riding the train to South Station every w
eekday.
Henador Titzoff
--- On Sun, 8/5/12, Eric M. Jones wrote:
From: Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter contactor leaking voltage
Date: Sunday, August 5, 2012, 7:48 AM
et>
repost
- - -
- - - As others have mentioned, the problem is in how you use your to
ols...like the voltmeter.
- - -
- - - Imagine that you have a voltmeter that is infinitely sensitive
(infinite impedance). Now it will measure the battery voltage even thru an
open switch. In fact, it will measure 500 volts between your belt buckle an
d your shoe laces. And the top of your hat will be 1000 volts higher than t
he soles of your New Balance sneakers. You can actually extract some tiny a
mount of power this way.
- - -
- - - So meter impedance is not a lack of quality in a meter, it is a
necessary and useful characteristic of the measuring device. And in a soli
d state circuit (like a diode), there will almost always be a voltage on th
e output that is similar to the input voltage even when the meter is off. A
nd in fact the "leakage voltage" will not be able to light even the tiniest
LED...so ignore it.
- - -
- - - I once designed a Cmos circuit where somebody (okay, me...) for
got to add the power trace to the IC. Years later, an inquisitive technicia
n, tracing an unrelated fault discovered it, but all the shipped product ha
d worked just fine.
- - -
- - - So just don't make voltage measurements like this.
- - -
- - - See attached for a better way.
- - -
- - - --------
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380088#380088
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/diode_test_745.pdf
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Safe Wire Types
From: "jhausch" <jimhausch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 05, 2012
Ran across this link. Did some searching here to see if posted previously, but
that does not seem to be the case.
Anyone's thoughts on this?
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/wire_types.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380111#380111
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Starter contactor leaking voltage
At 01:54 PM 8/5/2012, you wrote:
>Joe, Eric, Bob,
>
>Thanks so much for the feedback - I tried the
>lamp, and of course it did not light up. Also
>used an older analog instrument, and it showed
>no indication of voltage. Thanks to your help
>and a bit of time reading up on impedance, I
>have a better understanding what is happening
>here. I'm really happy to have run across this
>"problem" as it allowed me to learn some new stuff. Thanks again!
>
>Regards,
>Mickey
I've taken this posting to the List and fixed
some syntax/spelling issues, converted to a pdf
and posted it to AeroElectric.com article archives.
The cleaned up document is available at:
http://tinyurl.com/8oe5wbj
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Marvin Dorris Jr <medorrisjr(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Safe Wire Types
Date: Aug 05, 2012
If you're building a new airplane=2C use TKT Boeing or maybe TKT Airbus. I
f you have to fly in something older=2C or something that doesn't have thes
e types of wire=2C and something happens=2C blame your aviation safety advi
sor if you lose people.
And I'm thinking of buying a 1960 Bonanza Debonair??????????
Best Regards to All=2C
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Safe Wire Types
> From: jimhausch(at)gmail.com
> Date: Sun=2C 5 Aug 2012 13:28:56 -0700
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> Ran across this link. Did some searching here to see if posted previously
=2C but that does not seem to be the case.
>
> Anyone's thoughts on this?
> http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/wire_types.htm
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380111#380111
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Baker" <ggbaker(at)zoominternet.net>
Subject: Avionics Seminar for Builders-Wadsworth, OH-September
8, 2012
Date: Aug 05, 2012
EAA Chapter 846 is pleased to announce that we will host an Avionics Seminar
at Wadsworth Skypark Airport Saturday, Sept. 8, beginning at 8 am. This type
of avionics program has never been offered in the Cleveland, OH, area and
should help increase homebuilders' knowledge in this part of their build.
Seating will be limited.
Attendees will have the opportunity to meet representatives from
Aerotronics, Inc., Garmin, Dynon, Grand Rapid Technologies, TruTrak, and
Advanced Flight Systems. In a few cases, the owners of the companies will be
attending. Hands-on demos will be available and short workshops will be held
throughout the day. Pilots who are already flying and want to see the latest
upgrades are also invited to attend. There might also be some pilots who did
not build their RV, buying an experienced aircraft, and want a better
understanding of all things electrical. This seminar should provide answers
for everyone.
Aerotronics will be awarding a headset to a lucky winner. Dynon will be
giving away a D-1, their new portable EFIS, valued at more than $1,400! The
other vendors might be kind enough to offer some sort of door prize as well.
For more information and registration, please go to
<http://www.846.eaachapter.org/avionicsseminar.htm> Avionics Seminar -
Chapter 846. Let me know if you have any questions.
Gary Baker
President
EAA Chapter 846
<http://www.846.eaachapter.org/> www.846.eaachapter.org/
Wadsworth, OH
330-321-6274
cid:image001.gif(at)01CC886A.15E9B350
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starter contactor leaking voltage
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Aug 05, 2012
Many troubleshooters have come to the wrong conclusion when testing a circuit with
a voltmeter without the circuit being loaded. The troubleshooter might think,
"The voltmeter reads 12 volts. Therefore everything up to this point must
be OK." Without a load, that hypothesis could be incorrect. No load means
no current. No current means no voltage drop. So a voltmeter will read normal
voltage even if there is unwanted high resistance in the circuit. The high
resistance could be due to a bad switch or a loose connection or corrosion or
whatever. Without current flowing through that resistance, there will be no voltage
drop across it. A voltmeter could read normal voltage when no current
is flowing in a problem circuit.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380131#380131
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Safe Wire Types
At 03:28 PM 8/5/2012, you wrote:
>
>Ran across this link. Did some searching here to see if posted
>previously, but that does not seem to be the case.
>
>Anyone's thoughts on this?
>http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/wire_types.htm
>
>
This tempest has been bubbling at various
vapor-generation rates for decades . . .
I'll begin by noting that there's no such
thing as a 'safe' airplane . . . nor any
other machine which operates in close proximity
to people and other living creatures. Each
one is simply a tool that offers certain risks
associated with its construction and use.
Every one of them, used or maintained carelessly
will eat more than your lunch . . .
There's little about the construction and
operation of a OBAM aircraft to compare with an
Air Transport category aircraft. The operation,
maintenance, system complexities, and exposure
to people-induced mishap have very little
if anything in common.
Mr. Paterson's heart is in the right place
and he's privy to many facts surrounding the
history of ATC aircraft. Yes, there have been
a goodly number of incidents that had origins
with electrically induced fires.
How do these relate to your RV7 or even Lancair
IVP? Air Transport category flight cycles in US
number in tens of thousands per day with about 1.8
millions of souls arriving comfortably at their
intended destination. The world wide figures
would probably more than double that.
What are the numbers of incidents of in-flight
fire induced by electrical systems where
the fire might have been avoided had the
INSULATION been something different?
There are many electrical systems issues
that arise from damage by shipping containers
in the hold, accumulation of lint from carpets
and clothes in inaccessible places, drips from
coffee makers in the galley and potty plumbing.
Accumulation of hydraulic fluids, ingress of
rainwater, splash from wheel wells, etc. etc.
Those airplanes are operated to maximize revenue
generating hours per day while our airplanes
spend the overwhelming majority of their time
parked. The ATC aircraft will experience more
flight hours in a few months than your airplane
will over it's lifetime . . . and be exposed to
a thousand times more situations with a
potential for mishap.
Root cause of the majority of accidents
in small aircraft do not originate with the
electrical system at all . . . much less with
the kind of insulation on the wires.
There are thousands of airplanes flying with
cotton covered rubber insulation popular in
1940, tens of thousands flying with nylon over
PVC used for a couple decades worth of Cessna/Piper/
Beech production. Yet these less-than-exotic
insulations go unnoticed for their alleged
hazard . . . because they are very low risk.
I've worked some issues on Hawkers originally
certified with some exotic insulations that
would arc-track and experienced some electrical
events that did not precipitate a serious
accident. I'm aware of no incidents involving
electrical systems where Tefzel or pre-Tefzel
insulation was a factor. In other words, I
don't see the incident rates going down because
the insulation on the wire is Part 25 qualified.
Yes, people who are paid to worry are very
good at their jobs. Some folks worry as a hobby
or even out of a sense of civic duty. But none
of these folks seem to put their work product
into perspective for how it defines RISK.
Even though there are thousands of airplanes
flying with allegedly the worst possible
insulation on their wires, what is the probability
of any one planeload of folks is going to
experience a bad day in the breaker box?
There are conditions and forces in the overall
flight system that contribute much greater
factors to the grand equation that defines
risk for failure to arrive comfortably at your
intended destination. Further, the risk factors
for leaking potty pipes and inattentive baggage
handlers don't even figure into the grand
equation for an RV.
I cannot argue qualitatively with the assertions
derived from a study of Mr. Patterson's data.
I can refer to the performance history in
things like King Airs and Beechjets . . . and
my acquaintances who investigate accidents
involving those kinds of aircraft.
I suggest that probability of insulation failure
of a Tefzel wire (or even PVC) is WAAaaayyyy out
on some small branch of the system reliability
matrix for your airplane. So far out that
it's not worthy of investment for either capital
or emotional resources.
When I climb aboard a CJ and get a look at
the cockpit crew who looks like they barely
have to shave every day . . . or listen to the thumps
and crashes coming from the baggage compartment,
concerns for insulation on the ship's wiring do
not even enter my mind.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Safe Wire Types
At 05:37 PM 8/5/2012, you wrote:
If you're building a new airplane, use TKT Boeing or maybe TKT
Airbus. If you have to fly in something older, or something that
doesn't have these types of wire, and something happens, blame your
aviation safety advisor if you lose people.
Hmmm . . . where does one purchase this wire?
And I'm thinking of buying a 1960 Bonanza Debonair??????????
How about it ol' Bob. Would you recommend the wire
bundles be stripped out and replaced?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2012
Subject: Re: Safe Wire Types
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Not Bob III, but if you want to replace the wiring in a Bonanza be prepared
to strip the whole interior out. As a former A&P/IA, and current Bonanza
owner, the only issue with the wiring in my opinion, might be some of the
circuit breakers, switches and limit switches.
On the Beech forum over the past ten years I don't recall seeing to many
wiring issues that present a danger. The system might be regarded as old
school, but it works!
Bob Verwey
IO 470 A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
On 6 August 2012 04:39, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**>
>
> At 05:37 PM 8/5/2012, you wrote:
>
> If you're building a new airplane, use TKT Boeing or maybe TKT Airbus. If
> you have to fly in something older, or something that doesn't have these
> types of wire, and something happens, blame your aviation safety advisor if
> you lose people.
>
> Hmmm . . . where does one purchase this wire?
>
> And I'm thinking of buying a 1960 Bonanza Debonair??????????
>
> How about it ol' Bob. Would you recommend the wire
> bundles be stripped out and replaced?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 06, 2012
Subject: Re: Safe Wire Types
Good Morning Bob, Bob and All,
I would not replace the wiring unless it showed evidence of unintended
motion., but would carefully check all of the grounds and check for voltage
drop across any suspect CBs and switches.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
PS Good to be able to meet you in RFD. Wish we could have talked a bit
more.
In a message dated 8/6/2012 3:44:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
bob.verwey(at)gmail.com writes:
And I'm thinking of buying a 1960 Bonanza Debonair??????????
How about it ol' Bob. Would you recommend the wire
bundles be stripped out and replaced?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Safe Wire Types
From: "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Aug 06, 2012
I cannot argue with anything that has been said here; however, the real problem
lies at the ends of the wire.
If you hook up your new Taiwan audio gadget with 20 feet of 24 AWG and connect
it to a convenient 30 amp circuit breaker, you could find yourself in a would
of hurt if the device decides to short out. The breaker will never trip and the
wire will become a smoke generator. Ask me how I know.
Common hook-up wire purchased at your local electronics or auto parts store that
has PVC insulation will get things over with quicker.
Fortunately, my experience was in a service truck and not in a confined RV cockpit
at altitude. By the time I could get the truck stopped at the side of the
road, I was totally helpless and on the ground choking.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380166#380166
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Safe Wire Types
At 09:36 PM 8/5/2012, you wrote:
At 03:28 PM 8/5/2012, you wrote:
Ran across this link. Did some searching here to see if posted
previously, but that does not seem to be the case.
Anyone's thoughts on this?
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/wire_types.htm
This tempest has been bubbling at various
vapor-generation rates for decades . . .
I've worked some issues on Hawkers originally
certified with some exotic insulations that
would arc-track and experienced some electrical
events that did not precipitate a serious
accident. I'm aware of no incidents involving
electrical systems where Tefzel or pre-Tefzel
insulation was a factor. In other words, I
don't see the incident rates going down because
the insulation on the wire is Part 25 qualified.
I dug around in the archives and found some
of my data and reports generated therefrom for
the Hawker incidents cited.
Emacs!
Emacs!
Note that damage to these bundles ORIGINATED with
a single, small fault to ground. A contaminated
crack or more probably, rubbed through by motion
against the airframe. Note that this insulation
is a tape WRAPPED around the wires and fused
. . . not extruded as a contiguous amorphous
sheath.
Further, while these materials passed some form
of qualification testing at the time the airplane
was being designed, there was no investigation
as to behaviors under excitation for temperatures
produced by an electric arc that would trigger
a previously unconsidered form of propagation
for combustion . . . now called "arc tracking."
A fault in a single wire propagated catastrophic
damage to a bundle of wires (but did not set
the airplane on fire). The answer for these
airplanes is a new breaker (VERY expensive) that
can detect both hard faults (shorts and overloads)
and soft faults (arcing). Swissair 111 would probably
not have suffered its fate had the faulted wire
bundles not been routed adjacent to flammable
insulation.
Does anyone have flammable insulation in their
RV?
One cannot know the thinking behind selection
of this wire 30+ years ago. The military and
commercial aviation communities were wrestling
with some perceived shortfalls in the insulation
of choice for the era and the new kids on the
block . . . Teflon and cousins showed a lot of
promise.
Some folks made some terrible, expensive choices.
Don't know how many accidents were caused but
I do know of entire fleets of military aircraft
that were totally re-wired after carrier
based versions contracted dandruff of the
wire bundle and started shedding insulation
in little flakes.
I was working with the Gates-Piaggio GP-180 at
the time Lear was looking hard at Tefzel. An
export controlled product with strong military
implications. I was ready to go with RayChem's
Spec 55 wire with very nearly the same properties
of Tefzel and not export controlled . . . but
about 10-15% more expensive.
We ultimately acquired the export license and
the GP-180 was wired in Tefzel . . . and probably
still is. If it's not wired in Tefzel, then the
machine has probably fallen victim to knee-jerk
reactions so common to bombardment by Chicken
Little worriers without regard to assessment of
real risk.
Too many designers, regulators and decision makers for
modern products are NOT cognizant of history nor are
they capable of accurate consideration for magnitude
of risk. Their charter is to drive all risks to zero
no matter how much it costs.
Instead they float with the tide of regulations and
recommendations that flow from a constellation of
agencies who are paid to worry . . . and worry
they do. Present trends plotted into the future
suggest that risks associated with all forms of
transportation will be driven to ZERO. It's easy.
Regulate those systems out of existence with
constrictions of critical components like fuel,
unattainable efficiency mandates, traffic flow
boondoggles and yes . . . insulation on wires.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Safe Wire Types
At 07:40 AM 8/6/2012, you wrote:
I cannot argue with anything that has been said
here; however, the real problem lies at the ends of the wire.
If you hook up your new Taiwan audio gadget with
20 feet of 24 AWG and connect it to a
=9Cconvenient=9D 30 amp circuit breaker, you
could find yourself in a would of hurt if the
device decides to short out. The breaker will
never trip and the wire will become a smoke generator. Ask me how I know.
Common hook-up wire purchased at your local
electronics or auto parts store that has PVC
insulation will get things over with quicker.
Fortunately, my experience was in a service truck
and not in a confined RV cockpit at altitude. By
the time I could get the truck stopped at the
side of the road, I was totally helpless and on the ground choking.
--------
Jerry King
Sure. This is why it's important not to loose
sight of the whole system by getting distracted
with features of one component. Breakers will do
their job to keep a wire from burning ASSUMING it
is properly sized to the task. Blaming the cloud
of noxious smoke on PVC is rather far down the
chain of events.
I doubt that the wreckage of Swissair 111 produced
THE wire that some have hypothesized to have
ignited nearby insulation. The crew didn't succumb
to a damaged wire that did not enjoy protection from
soft faults, it was smoke that was a byproduct of
another shortfall in selection and installation of
materials. This report speaks to dozens of incidents
involving "failures within the entertainment systems"
http://tinyurl.com/d6rgttp
but without implicating Tefzel failures as root
cause. It was Paterson's statement:
"Tefzel was found in Swiss Air flight SR111's
Inflight Entertainment System (IFEN) which was
suspected as being the cause of the inflight fire
and subsequent crash of the aircraft off Nova Scotia in November 1998."
Well duh . . . how does insulation on hookup wire
figure into the failures within components of
the in-flight entertainment system?
Even if there WAS a faulted wire, had the poor
choice of insulation not been present, the airplane
might have simply suffered wire bundle damage like
the Hawkers.
The lessons to be studied here go to the notion
that all accidents are propagated on a string
of conditions that follow a triggering event.
It's useful to consider the cost-benefit-risk-
ratios for eliminating the triggering event but
foolish to not include contributing conditions
as well. All of these accidents would have been
stopped by breaking the chain anywhere. If the
Swissair 111 incident had not ended sadly, this
statement from Airbus would have been humorous:
"Airbus spokeswoman Mary Anne Greczyn says the
company has rigorous standards for entertainment
and other aircraft systems. Airbus provides extra
protection on entertainment system wiring by
using sleeves and other materials, she says."
Protection of wires using sleeves . . . what's up
with that? Are the entertainment system wires worthy
of special attention not enjoyed by the rest of the
wiring in the airplane? Had the folks who first smelled
the impending failures been old TV technicians, perhaps
their learned sense of smell would have identified first-
failure as a capacitor, a resistor or burning ECB
material. At no place in any article have I found that
Tefzel wire . . . or any other wire is directly responsible
for triggering this incident. Yet we see statements
like . . .
The aviation industry has been grappling for
years with problems of cracked and deteriorated
wiring causing fires and emergency landings, he
says. Adding four miles of entertainment system
wire to a jet that may have more than 100 miles
of other wires is "like throwing gas on a fire."
Lacey believes planes are safer without the
systems. "We could choose to do without fancy
entertainment systems," he says. "A good book works for me."
Fine examples of Chicken Little journalism and
arm-chair, bureaucratic accident analysis. I've not
seen any direct evidence that this incident (or
dozens of others) would have been prevented by
replacing the Tefzel wire . . .
Tens of thousands of airplanes are flying with
PVC insulated wires . . . many of which are fed
by appropriately sized breakers that performed
as advertised and opened up without so much as
melting the insulation much less setting it on fire.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: Safe Wire Types
Date: Aug 06, 2012
Total waste of time to try and even acquire much less use that wire on a
small piston single plane. Wires in our planes are not carrying high Hz AC
voltage like the heavy iron I used to work with. As Bob has said
repeatedly, stick with regular Tefzel and you'll be golden. Yes there is
that one guy that has the one website that has been out there forever
written by a person with subjective personal and political motivation, and
some of the info is dubious (some of it is outright conjecture) to begin
with and also much of it doesn't apply to systems in our planes. Just
because someone put something on a webpage somewhere sometime and claims to
be an expert does not make it so. Stick with what works well for your
installation and don't try to turn your plane into a Boeing!
Just my 2 cents as usual.
Cheers,
Stein
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marvin
Dorris Jr
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Safe Wire Types
If you're building a new airplane, use TKT Boeing or maybe TKT Airbus. If
you have to fly in something older, or something that doesn't have these
types of wire, and something happens, blame your aviation safety advisor if
you lose people.
And I'm thinking of buying a 1960 Bonanza Debonair??????????
Best Regards to All,
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Safe Wire Types
> From: jimhausch(at)gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 13:28:56 -0700
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> Ran across this link. Did some searching here to see if posted previously,
but that does not seem to be the case.
>
> Anyone's thoughts on this?
> http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/wire_types.htm
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380111#380111
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=============
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2012
From: cardinalnsb <cardinalnsb(at)aol.com>
Subject: wire safety
When I got my 1968 Cardinal, I considered "rewiring" with "new stuff", assuming
the "old stuff Cessna used" was inferior.
My (deceased) friend looked at it and laughed at me. He said it was fine (not
burned or cracked, pliable, etc.), and the problems I would create by the rewiring
greatly outweighed his assessment of any deficiency in the wiring. He started
in the business fixing mismatched wiring looms in new B52's, avionics install
type work in military aircraft, set the nuclear fuses in fighter bombers
("go down to the end of the runway and when you come back we will send the pilot
down to fly out"), and ended with a top secret conning tower clearance in
ballistic missile subs as field engineer.
I figured he knew a lot about safe wire, so I just kept the old Cessna wiring...
Skip Simpson
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Safe Wire Types
From: "jhausch" <jimhausch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 07, 2012
THis has been very informative. Thanks to all who have replied. I expected folks
to say Tefzel was AOK, but did not expect to see good comments about PVC.
Again, thanks. very interesting to read (and learn)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380258#380258
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Faulty troubleshooting
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Aug 07, 2012
I had recently commented about erroneous troubleshooting techniques.
Then I made the same mistake myself. While working on an aviation project in my
workshop, I had wires temporarily connected with dabs of solder or alligator
clips. Then everything quit working. I tested the 5 VDC bus and it measured
12 volts! Oh no, I thought the 7805 voltage regulator shorted out and ruined
my expensive 5-volt components with 12 volts. I removed the 7805 voltage regulator
from the circuit board and tested it. There was nothing wrong with it.
So I soldered it back in place and turned the power on. This time everything
worked fine. Hmm, why weren't the 5-volt parts fried when 12 volts were applied?
And where did that 12 volts come from? I checked the PC Board traces for
solder bridges, but there were none.
Later I realized what must have happened. The negative power supply wire to
the circuit board must have had a bad connection. So the board was not even powered
up. No wonder nothing worked. So why did my digital volt meter measure
12 volts on the 5-volt bus? Because the meter has high input impedance, it
was able to measure the minute voltage leaking through the 7805 voltage regulator.
By the way, the voltmeter common lead was connected to the negative supply
upstream of the bad connection. This situation is very similar to the diode
test that Eric Jones described with a battery and diode and voltmeter all connected
in series.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380330#380330
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Deems Herring <dsleepy47(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: HUD for GA aircraft
Date: Aug 07, 2012
This: http://www.virtualhud.com/VirtualHud/VirtualHUD.aspx might be better
for single engine tractor planes.
Deems
Date: Mon=2C 30 Jul 2012 22:09:28 +0100
From: peter(at)sportingaero.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: HUD for GA aircraft
The big deal about HUDs is that they are focused at infinity with
some fancy (heavy) optics. That way you look out the window and
everything is in focus=2C
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: How to Select a Scope
Date: Aug 09, 2012
I've been considering purchasing an oscilloscope for hobby/trouble-shooting
use. It's been 30+ years since I've fiddled with scopes. I'm looking for
counseling/guidance/recommendations.
Some things I want to do:
1. Analyze the output of the crank angle sensor in my car - (currently
having some starting problems, but I digress)
2. I like to program micro-controllers and would like to do
trouble-shooting & analysis
3. Look at the wave-forms produced by an alternator
4. Get the best bang for the buck
Questions:
1. I see devises advertised that are combo oscilloscope & logic
analyzer. Are these as cool as they appear?
2. How do I decide which frequency range I need? (It seems the higher
the MHz rating of a device the higher the cost) Most of the
micro-controllers that I work with are clocked around 4 MHz. I once heard
that the rating of the scope should be 10x the signal you want to analyze.
Is that true?
3. What other criteria should I consider?
As always TIA, I look forward to learning something
Jeff Luckey
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How to Select a Scope
From: Normand Biron <normbiron(at)msn.com>
Date: Aug 09, 2012
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How to Select a Scope
Date: Aug 09, 2012
I have one of these:
http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDS1102E.html
It's "good" -- it's a pretty good scope for $400. Digital, storage, USB
image and data capture, RS-232/USB computer control port.
You can also get a DS1052E for $350 if you want to drop down to 50MHz
bandwidth for $50 less. I ended up getting the scope case for $50 as
well.
There are definitely some glitches and usability hitches every now and
then, but overall it's great for the money. But, if I had tons of money
to blow, I'd definitely get an Agilent Infiniivision scope.
For the microcontroller work, you're going to get a lot more
productivity mileage out of a Saleae Logic:
http://www.saleae.com/logic
For $150 not only will it capture 8 channels in parallel, but you can
also assign channels to be decoded inline. Many serial formats are
supported out of the box. For digital work, I highly recommend it. It
will not read any analog inputs, however, so you'd need a scope for that
-- but getting that kind of serial decoding in a scope tends to be
expensive.
Good luck!
--Daniel
On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:02 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
> I=92ve been considering purchasing an oscilloscope for
hobby/trouble-shooting use. It=92s been 30+ years since I=92ve fiddled
with scopes. I=92m looking for counseling/guidance/recommendations.
>
> Some things I want to do:
>
> Analyze the output of the crank angle sensor in my car ' (currently
having some starting problems, but I digress)
> I like to program micro-controllers and would like to do
trouble-shooting & analysis
> Look at the wave-forms produced by an alternator
> Get the best bang for the buck
>
>
> Questions:
> I see devises advertised that are combo oscilloscope & logic analyzer.
Are these as cool as they appear?
> How do I decide which frequency range I need? (It seems the higher
the MHz rating of a device the higher the cost) Most of the
micro-controllers that I work with are clocked around 4 MHz. I once
heard that the rating of the scope should be 10x the signal you want to
analyze. Is that true?
> What other criteria should I consider?
>
> As always TIA, I look forward to learning something
>
> Jeff Luckey
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: B&C 505-1
From: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Aug 10, 2012
Hi All
I bought ages ago a PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v) that I intended to
fit to my Jab 3300.
Now I have come to the fitting end and wonder if it is still the right part for
my Single Phase Jab 20 AMP PM?? as the wiring shows it for a 3 Phase one..
Can someone confirm if this is the correct kit for my new jab?
from their site
This 14 volt kit provides crucial over-voltage protection to our permanent magnet
alternator (BC433-H) and others rated at 30 amps or below. Comes with a clear-yellow
warning light that will illuminate if the crowbar over-voltage protection
module is tripped (or when the alternator switch is left off), and a filter
capacitor to reduce radio noise and enhance regulation.
Thanks
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380623#380623
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Burbidge <mburbidg(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg wire...
Date: Aug 10, 2012
I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the contractors
to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C meant to be crimped or
soldered? If crimped where can I get a crimper big enough to handle 4 awg. B&C
only sells ones that handle up to 10 awg wire.
Thanks,
Michael-
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
Date: Aug 10, 2012
Michael,
Harbor Freight has a hydraulic crimper that does the job.
http://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html
Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(H) 940-497-2123
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 10, 2012, at 20:30, Michael Burbidge wrote:
I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the contractors
to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C meant to be crimped or
soldered? If crimped where can I get a crimper big enough to handle 4 awg. B&C
only sells ones that handle up to 10 awg wire.
Thanks,
Michael-
________________________________________________________________________________
From: <berkut13(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
Date: Aug 10, 2012
Works great, but do NOT go by the wire size markings on the various crimping
dies...they are WAY off the mark. (or at least were on my unit)
-James
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Borger
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4
awg wire...
Michael,
Harbor Freight has a hydraulic crimper that does the job.
http://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html
Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(H) 940-497-2123
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 10, 2012, at 20:30, Michael Burbidge wrote:
I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the
contractors to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C meant to
be crimped or soldered? If crimped where can I get a crimper big enough to
handle 4 awg. B&C only sells ones that handle up to 10 awg wire.
Thanks,
Michael-
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2012
From: Glen Matejcek <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg wire...
Hi Michael-
I went to a local welding supply house to have them do it. The guy there pointed
out he'd have to charge me $10 per crimp, and for the same 10 bucks I could
by a hammer-driven die. It's about 2" x 3" x 5", IIRC, is conceptually similar
to a cigar tip cutting guillotine (whatever you actually call those things),
will crimp terminals to any of the really fat wires, and mounts to a bench,
bumper, or in a vise. You could probably use it sitting on concrete, but that
would be a little gutsy.
Put the wire end ass'y into the device, whack it with a small sledge a few times
(until the built-in gauge says you're done) and you're all set. Dirt simple,
very effective, and about the cheapest airplane tool I've ever bought.
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg wire...
>I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the contractors
>to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C meant to be crimped or
>soldered? If crimped where can I get a crimper big enough to handle 4 awg. B&C
>only sells ones that handle up to 10 awg wire.
Glen Matejcek
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2012
I've got one of those wack-types that I'd like to get rid of. I wasn't happy with
the results, but perhaps someone else coudl do better. I anyone is in the market
for one, send me a note.
On Aug 11, 2012, at 6:24, Glen Matejcek wrote:
>
> Hi Michael-
>
> I went to a local welding supply house to have them do it. The guy there pointed
out he'd have to charge me $10 per crimp, and for the same 10 bucks I could
by a hammer-driven die. It's about 2" x 3" x 5", IIRC, is conceptually similar
to a cigar tip cutting guillotine (whatever you actually call those things),
will crimp terminals to any of the really fat wires, and mounts to a bench,
bumper, or in a vise. You could probably use it sitting on concrete, but that
would be a little gutsy.
>
> Put the wire end ass'y into the device, whack it with a small sledge a few times
(until the built-in gauge says you're done) and you're all set. Dirt simple,
very effective, and about the cheapest airplane tool I've ever bought.
>
>
>
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
>
>
>> I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the contractors
>> to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C meant to be crimped
or
>> soldered? If crimped where can I get a crimper big enough to handle 4 awg. B&C
>> only sells ones that handle up to 10 awg wire.
>
>
> Glen Matejcek
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
At 09:30 PM 8/10/2012, you wrote:
>
>I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the
>contractors to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C
>meant to be crimped or soldered? If crimped where can I get a
>crimper big enough to handle 4 awg. B&C only sells ones that handle
>up to 10 awg wire.
>
>Thanks,
>Michael-
Crimp tools for the larger terminals are
pretty pricey. Further, most airplanes will
need only a handful of large terminals. Consider
soldering un-insulated terminals and dressing
out with heat shrink. See:
http://tinyurl.com/9pbvky8
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
At 06:05 AM 8/11/2012, you wrote:
>
>I've got one of those wack-types that I'd like to get rid of. I
>wasn't happy with the results, but perhaps someone else coudl do
>better. I anyone is in the market for one, send me a note.
The problem with beat-n-bash crimpers is lack
of verification for having achieved a gas-tight
joint.
See:
http://tinyurl.com/8vk6sxc
http://tinyurl.com/93yweyd
Without vetting the marriage of wire-to-terminal-to-tool,
the easiest way to maximize copper in the wire grip is
to stuff wire-wedges into the matrix and then fill all
voids with free-flow of an electronic grade 63/37 solder.
Works good, lasts a long time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C 505-1
At 07:58 PM 8/10/2012, you wrote:
Hi All
I bought ages ago a PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v) that I
intended to fit to my Jab 3300.
Now I have come to the fitting end and wonder if it is still the
right part for my Single Phase Jab 20 AMP PM?? as the wiring shows it
for a 3 Phase one..
Can someone confirm if this is the correct kit for my new jab?
From their site:
This 14 volt kit provides crucial over-voltage protection to our
permanent magnet alternator (BC433-H) and others rated at 30 amps or
below. Comes with a clear-yellow warning light that will illuminate
if the crowbar over-voltage protection module is tripped (or when the
alternator switch is left off), and a filter capacitor to reduce
radio noise and enhance regulation.
Thanks
Chris
This kit is applicable to any PM alternator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2012
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4
awg wire...
I soldered the 4 or 5 big wire terminals in my project and it all worked
very well per Bob's tutorial below. In particular, the stuffing of the
barrel with copper wedges was a key detail. Did mine with a 25 year
old Weller soldering gun.
Bill
On 8/11/2012 8:24 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> At 09:30 PM 8/10/2012, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the
>> contractors to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C
>> meant to be crimped or soldered? If crimped where can I get a crimper
>> big enough to handle 4 awg. B&C only sells ones that handle up to 10
>> awg wire.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael-
>
> Crimp tools for the larger terminals are
> pretty pricey. Further, most airplanes will
> need only a handful of large terminals. Consider
> soldering un-insulated terminals and dressing
> out with heat shrink. See:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/9pbvky8
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C 505-1
From: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Aug 11, 2012
Thanks Bob.
I got abut worried when I realised it also was for a 3 phase system.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380681#380681
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2012
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
The wire size markings on the Harbor Freight crimper are not only mismarked
but the make a crappy crimp when you do get them to sort of work.
With Amp #4 solder on terminals I have had success with the "G" (5/32")
Nico sleeve swager on my GCMP (1/16 to 5/32) tool. I hit it three times the
same way I would a Nico sleeve so that there is a slight bubble between
each and it worked great. Afterward I used three brushed on coats of enamel
paint to seal everything up followed by glue lined heat shrink tubing (your
basic belt and suspenders approach). Four years and no sign of corrosion on
the open end.
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:58 PM, wrote:
>
> Works great, but do NOT go by the wire size markings on the various
> crimping dies...they are WAY off the mark. (or at least were on my unit)
> -James
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Robert Borger
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:48 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.**com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to
> 4 awg wire...
>
>
> Michael,
>
> Harbor Freight has a hydraulic crimper that does the job.
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/**hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-**66150.html>
>
> Best regards,
> Robert Borger, President
> Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
> Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
> (H) 940-497-2123
> (C) 817-992-1117
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 20:30, Michael Burbidge wrote:
>
> mburbidg(at)gmail.com>
>
> I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the
> contractors to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C meant
> to be crimped or soldered? If crimped where can I get a crimper big enough
> to handle 4 awg. B&C only sells ones that handle up to 10 awg wire.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael-
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2012
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Didn't mean to be rude, our 19 year old cat stepped on the keyboard and
sent the post for me.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> The wire size markings on the Harbor Freight crimper are not only
> mismarked but the make a crappy crimp when you do get them to sort of work.
> With Amp #4 solder on terminals I have had success with the "G" (5/32")
> Nico sleeve swager on my GCMP (1/16 to 5/32) tool. I hit it three times the
> same way I would a Nico sleeve so that there is a slight bubble between
> each and it worked great. Afterward I used three brushed on coats of enamel
> paint to seal everything up followed by glue lined heat shrink tubing (your
> basic belt and suspenders approach). Four years and no sign of corrosion on
> the open end.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:58 PM, wrote:
>
>>
>> Works great, but do NOT go by the wire size markings on the various
>> crimping dies...they are WAY off the mark. (or at least were on my unit)
>> -James
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Robert Borger
>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:48 PM
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.**com
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to
>> 4 awg wire...
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> Harbor Freight has a hydraulic crimper that does the job.
>>
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/**hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-**66150.html>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Robert Borger, President
>> Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
>> Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
>> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
>> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
>> (H) 940-497-2123
>> (C) 817-992-1117
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 20:30, Michael Burbidge wrote:
>>
>> mburbidg(at)gmail.com>
>>
>> I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the
>> contractors to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C meant
>> to be crimped or soldered? If crimped where can I get a crimper big enough
>> to handle 4 awg. B&C only sells ones that handle up to 10 awg wire.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2012
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Okay, I caught my own mistake, the "G" swager is the 1/16", the "P" is the
5/32".
Rick
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Didn't mean to be rude, our 19 year old cat stepped on the keyboard and
> sent the post for me.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
>
>> The wire size markings on the Harbor Freight crimper are not only
>> mismarked but the make a crappy crimp when you do get them to sort of work.
>> With Amp #4 solder on terminals I have had success with the "G" (5/32")
>> Nico sleeve swager on my GCMP (1/16 to 5/32) tool. I hit it three times the
>> same way I would a Nico sleeve so that there is a slight bubble between
>> each and it worked great. Afterward I used three brushed on coats of enamel
>> paint to seal everything up followed by glue lined heat shrink tubing (your
>> basic belt and suspenders approach). Four years and no sign of corrosion on
>> the open end.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:58 PM, wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Works great, but do NOT go by the wire size markings on the various
>>> crimping dies...they are WAY off the mark. (or at least were on my unit)
>>> -James
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Robert Borger
>>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:48 PM
>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.**com
>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals"
>>> to 4 awg wire...
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> Harbor Freight has a hydraulic crimper that does the job.
>>>
>>> http://www.harborfreight.com/**hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-**66150.html>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Robert Borger, President
>>> Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
>>> Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
>>> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
>>> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
>>> (H) 940-497-2123
>>> (C) 817-992-1117
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 20:30, Michael Burbidge wrote:
>>>
>>> mburbidg(at)gmail.com>
>>>
>>> I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the
>>> contractors to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C meant
>>> to be crimped or soldered? If crimped where can I get a crimper big enough
>>> to handle 4 awg. B&C only sells ones that handle up to 10 awg wire.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Michael-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Zulu Delta
>> Mk IIIC
>> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>>
>> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
>> unhappy.
>> - Groucho Marx
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to
4 awg wire...
At 05:16 PM 8/11/2012, you wrote:
>
>Greetings,
>
>I know crimp and then solder is frowned upon as unnecessary. I was
>wondering if there was a problem with crimping with a whack-type, to
>tighten up the strands in the terminal(instead of wedging) and then
>soldering. Seems less fussy if you already have the beat-n-bash
>crimper, or if you have several to do.
Can't imagine any 'problem' . . . just
curious as to your lack of confidence in
a demonstrably known process. Crimps properly
installed are good for the lifetime of the airplane.
So are soldered joints. I suppose there's
some confidence to be gained if your soldering
or crimping skills are questionable.
It seems more practical to become good at
one if not both processes. I own a drawer full
of crimp tools and perhaps a half dozen different
soldering systems. This gives me broad options
for many combinations of wire, terminal and tool.
But to use both techniques on a single installation
adds no value unless you're unsure about either
process. Getting good at one or both is always
better than "stacking" processes because you are
not-so-good at either.
Would you run a line of screws and nuts down the
edge of a wing skin because you were not so good
at setting rivets?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to
4 awg wire...
Greetings,
I wasn't describing stacking processes.
I was suggesting that the process of "wedging" might be replaced by
compressing the components together with a "whack-n-bash" tool. It would
avoid the - find the wire - find the sharpening tool - strip - sharpen -
drive - nip - process of wedging.
Seems quicker and at least as repeatable as "wedging", if it doesn't
introduce additional issues I'm not considering.
Just wondering out loud.
Thanks,
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 08/11/2012 11:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> At 05:16 PM 8/11/2012, you wrote:
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I know crimp and then solder is frowned upon as unnecessary. I was
>> wondering if there was a problem with crimping with a whack-type, to
>> tighten up the strands in the terminal(instead of wedging) and then
>> soldering. Seems less fussy if you already have the beat-n-bash
>> crimper, or if you have several to do.
>
> Can't imagine any 'problem' . . . just
> curious as to your lack of confidence in
> a demonstrably known process. Crimps properly
> installed are good for the lifetime of the airplane.
> So are soldered joints. I suppose there's
> some confidence to be gained if your soldering
> or crimping skills are questionable.
>
> It seems more practical to become good at
> one if not both processes. I own a drawer full
> of crimp tools and perhaps a half dozen different
> soldering systems. This gives me broad options
> for many combinations of wire, terminal and tool.
>
> But to use both techniques on a single installation
> adds no value unless you're unsure about either
> process. Getting good at one or both is always
> better than "stacking" processes because you are
> not-so-good at either.
>
> Would you run a line of screws and nuts down the
> edge of a wing skin because you were not so good
> at setting rivets?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to
4 awg wire...
At 02:41 PM 8/12/2012, you wrote:
>
>Greetings,
>
>I wasn't describing stacking processes.
>
>I was suggesting that the process of "wedging" might be replaced by
>compressing the components together with a "whack-n-bash" tool. It
>would avoid the - find the wire - find the sharpening tool - strip -
>sharpen - drive - nip - process of wedging.
Hmmm . . . understand. Yes, anything you
do to minimize voids in the wire grip before
soldering is a good thing to do. If copper
'wedging' is unattractive then reducing
the cross section of the terminal barrel
is another option.
The wire for wedges is pretty easy. Most
hardware stores will sell 14/2+ground
house wire by the foot. Buy one foot and
you'll have 3 feet of wedge material. It's
pvc insulation and comes off easy with
a pocket knife. I get sharp ends by cutting
the pieces with the tool as close to parallel
with the wire as it will permit. Pushing
the wedges in can be done with the same
pair of wire cutters. The last one will need
to be driven . . . I use the wire cutter for
that too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
Date: Aug 13, 2012
Hi guys,
I haven't read all the posts on this thread ... please forgive me if I'm
covering old ground.
Not everyone's cup-o-tea, but you can make dies like this too. Just cut two
bits of the same steel bar to length, hold them together in a vice, drill a
big hole at the join from the top in one direction and a small hole from the
side. Smooth the end of a rod or pin punch and there you have it, a decent
die you can hold in the vice that will retain the shape of your terminal as
you crimp away the void, prior to solder and heatshrink.
Cheers, Stu
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2012
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
> Consider soldering un-insulated terminals and dressing out with heat
shrink.
I did my large wires with this method, and it worked very well. The
blowtorch makes a bit of a mess of the insulation near the terminals, but
that gets covered up neatly by heatshrink.
James
On 11 August 2012 13:24, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**>
>
> At 09:30 PM 8/10/2012, you wrote:
>
>> mburbidg(at)gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> I'm using the "uninsulated ring terminals" for 4 awg wire from the
>> contractors to my bus and alternator. Are the terminals sold by B&C meant
>> to be crimped or soldered? If crimped where can I get a crimper big enough
>> to handle 4 awg. B&C only sells ones that handle up to 10 awg wire.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael-
>>
>
> Crimp tools for the larger terminals are
> pretty pricey. Further, most airplanes will
> need only a handful of large terminals. Consider
> soldering un-insulated terminals and dressing
> out with heat shrink. See:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/9pbvky8
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2012
From: Glen Matejcek <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
wire...
You betcha. Instead of all those other steps that invariably eat up $time$, just
insert, whack whack, and solder away. It might not sound like much of a deal,
but with my dual battery, all-electric airplane, there are 12 such terminals
IIRC.
As far as making a gas tight joint without solder goes, it seems to be a no-brainer
with the tool I have. It takes a couple moderately heavy blows with a 2 1/2
pound sledge to compress it to the gauge depth. Considering the gauge of the
materials in the wire and terminal as well as the design of the die, it's hard
to imagine how a reasaonable man could over do it and do damage. I tried just
to see what would happen, and it seems about all you can do is some sort of
gross alignment error that would be quite obvious.
Of course, this is also an industrial tool that the welding shop uses to fabricate
the cables they sell to professional welders. I suspect that given the duty
cycle and environment involved in that application, I will be hard pressed to
have a problem with my installation. I did solder my connections as a means
of sealing the end of the wire, just because. Heat shrink covers the barrel
and bridges to the insulation.
One tip: If your cable will need to bend close to the terminal, put that bend
in when you attach the terminal. I works wonders-
Also, life is easier if you remember to slip the heat shrink over the cable prior
to affixing the terminal... you may wonder how I know that!
FWIW, YMMV...
>Greetings,
>
>I wasn't describing stacking processes.
>
>I was suggesting that the process of "wedging" might be replaced by
>compressing the components together with a "whack-n-bash" tool. It would
>avoid the - find the wire - find the sharpening tool - strip - sharpen -
>drive - nip - process of wedging.
>
>Seems quicker and at least as repeatable as "wedging", if it doesn't
>introduce additional issues I'm not considering.
>
>Just wondering out loud.
>
>Thanks,
>Raymond Julian
>Kettle River, MN.
Glen Matejcek
Glen Matejcek
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2012
From: D L Josephson <dlj04(at)josephson.com>
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4
awg
Perhaps I'm just being dense, but why not just get the appropriate sized
uninsulated ring terminal for the wire you want to use rather than
stuffing with more copper? If you want to solder a #4 wire, a #6 or
maybe #8 crimp terminal would probably be the right size for a snug fit.
You can also make your own, using soft copper refrigeration tubing --
whatever best fits the wire, squeezed flat (in a press if necessary) and
drilled at the end.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator
Date: Aug 13, 2012
Bob,
Assuming that in order to end up with an externally regulated 55-60 amp
alternator, I will probably have to modify an IR model, which alternator
should I buy to start with.
I want the fans to turn the correct direction (CCW when viewed at the
pulley) for use on a lycoming.
I don't want to pay the big bucks for a B&C unit and don't mind doing the
work to convert it.
Bevan
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2012
Subject: Re: Attaching "uninsulated ring terminals" to 4 awg
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
I used a Dremel to cut a slot in the barrel, then pinched the slot
closed and soldered. I found that I was able to solder successfully
without getting the wire anywhere near hot enough to melt the
insulation, so if that's a problem I'd suggest trying less heat. Here
are some pictures, down about half way:
http://jaredyates.com/bearhawk/?p=988
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 1:51 PM, D L Josephson wrote:
>
> Perhaps I'm just being dense, but why not just get the appropriate sized
> uninsulated ring terminal for the wire you want to use rather than stuffing
> with more copper? If you want to solder a #4 wire, a #6 or maybe #8 crimp
> terminal would probably be the right size for a snug fit. You can also make
> your own, using soft copper refrigeration tubing -- whatever best fits the
> wire, squeezed flat (in a press if necessary) and drilled at the end.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Which 55-60 amp alternator
At 01:23 PM 8/13/2012, you wrote:
Bob,
Assuming that in order to end up with an externally regulated 55-60 amp
alternator, I will probably have to modify an IR model, which alternator
should I buy to start with.
I'm not sufficiently familiar with the
choices to advise you confidently. It would
seem that the driving constraint is purely
mechanical. Research the parts available to bolt
it to the engine including any changes to
the stock pulley.
Unless you're willing to tackle mechanical
integration issues along with electrical, you'd
probably want to limit you search to frames
already supported by off-the-shelf attach
hardware.
I want the fans to turn the correct direction (CCW when viewed at the
pulley) for use on a lycoming.
That used to be a 'thing' to consider with
external fans with blades optimized for direction
of rotation.
[]
Modern alternators have internal fans with
little if any 'sculpturing' of the blades
[]
Rotating an alternator 'backwards' in an
airplane is unlikely to pose any problems.
First, you're exceedingly unlikely to stress
your alternator in a manner that produces
maximum rated internal heating. The cooling
environment under the hood of a car is MUCH
worse than under the cowl of your airplane.
Further, you're going to be spinning the
alternator much faster than the original
application design point . . . cooling is
not a big issue.
I don't want to pay the big bucks for a B&C unit and don't mind doing the
work to convert it.
You can run it internally regulated . . . you
could do a mod similar to that offered by Plane
Power for crowbar ov protection and external
control of field power.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator
Date: Aug 14, 2012
Thanks Bob,
The online alternator vendors don't supply data such as mounting bracket
dimensions, pulley diameter etc. they just say it fit a particular make and
model car.
Can I assume that a 12V 60 amp Denso alternator has the same mounting
dimensions as the 60 amp Plane Power that Vans sells?
I'm not sufficiently familiar with the
choices to advise you confidently. It would
seem that the driving constraint is purely
mechanical. Research the parts available to bolt
it to the engine including any changes to
the stock pulley.
Fair enough. Anyone have any experience with this? I've already wired the
plane for external control and crowbar as I agree with the philosophy. So I
would like to keep it this way. Nothing lasts for ever. So my theory is to
buy two alternators online for the price of one B & C or Plane power. Mod
them both for external control and one will be then be a spare. :)
Unless you're willing to tackle mechanical
integration issues along with electrical, you'd
probably want to limit you search to frames
already supported by off-the-shelf attach
hardware.
Exactly. Still need top know the dimensional data. Anyone have a Vans,
B&C, Plane Power 60amp that it will to measure the mounting bracket boss?
That used to be a 'thing' to consider with
external fans with blades optimized for direction
of rotation.
[]
Modern alternators have internal fans with
little if any 'sculpturing' of the blades
[]
Rotating an alternator 'backwards' in an
airplane is unlikely to pose any problems.
First, you're exceedingly unlikely to stress
your alternator in a manner that produces
maximum rated internal heating. The cooling
environment under the hood of a car is MUCH
worse than under the cowl of your airplane.
Further, you're going to be spinning the
alternator much faster than the original
application design point . . . cooling is
not a big issue.
OK, makes sense. I will not be concerned with direction of fans.
You can run it internally regulated . . . you
could do a mod similar to that offered by Plane
Power for crowbar ov protection and external
control of field power.
I'm confused by the above statement. Does that not make it externally
controlled or is there a variation on a theme here? Is there a document
that describes the PP mod?
Bevan
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jack Haviland <jghrv6a(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Cooling Low Current Alternators
Date: Aug 15, 2012
Sometime ago, Van's Aircraft sold 30 - 35 amp rebuilt Honda Civic alternators (14184)
with the normal fan deleted since it would rotate the wrong way on a Lycoming.
They no longer sell them but "remanufactured" 14184 alternators with a
fan (and a "lifetime warranty") are readily available from Auto Zone. Is it preferable
to remove the fan or leave it on? Same question for the capacitor that
is on the Auto Zone unit.
When installed on an O-320 D1A, the aft end of the alternator is very close to
the No. 1 cylinder exhaust pipe. I'll be installing a shield to try to keep the
rectifier diodes cool (along with the blast tube I originally installed). Comments
from those who have experience with these low current alternators would
be appreciated.
JGH
RV6A w/ 100 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator
You can run it internally regulated . . . you
could do a mod similar to that offered by Plane
Power for crowbar ov protection and external
control of field power.
I'm confused by the above statement. Does that not make it
externally controlled or is there a variation on a theme here? Is
there a document that describes the PP mod?
Let's make a distinction between internally and
externally REGULATED . . . which speaks to the
location of the electronics that exercises dynamic
control of field current for the purpose of
maintaining desired bus voltage. Then there's
a legacy design goal for any-time, any-conditions
control of alternator function by the pilot.
Referring you to an exemplar schematic for an
internally regulated alternator . . .
http://tinyurl.com/8a9uuns
the pathway in green shows how energy from the
battery makes it through a controlling device
(in this case, an N-channel FET) to the alternator
field. Note that both CONTROL and WARNING
functions (red) attach to electronics within
the regulator's circuitry. If something in that
circuitry fails or the FET shorts, then full
battery voltage is applied to the field, regulation
control is lost and you have an over-voltage
condition.
There's been a great deal of discussion in the past
as to the suitability of internally regulated alternators
on airplanes. I have always maintained that I could
not recommend the use of IR alternators because
they could not offer the legacy any-time, any-condition
control by the pilot -OR- an ov protection system
in their off-the-shelf configuration.
B&C's solution to the problem was to remove the
built in regulator and offer an external alternator
control system that included the functional trinity
for alternator management: Regulation, OV management,
LV warning.
Plane power went a different route and simply
broke the field supply path inside the alternator
and brought it out so that absolute, any-time
any conditions control was available to the pilot
-AND- ov protection could be easily implemented.
In this case, Plane Power elected to go with
the crowbar ov protection technique pioneered
in aircraft by yours truly. The concept was
slated to go onto the Beech 38P
http://tinyurl.com/7smb4k5
Unfortunately, that program never made it to
the production line. The last time I saw N336BA,
the fuselage was sitting outside Burt Rutan's
hangar at Mojave.
http://tinyurl.com/cj3n24a
Since that time, crowbar ov protection has
be successfully applied to thousands of installations
in dozens of aircraft.
If you want to convert an off-the-shelf
alternator to your use while embracing the legacy
design goals for engine driven power sources, you
have the option of doing the B&C thingy or the
Plane-Power thingy . . . either one works good
and lasts a long time.
I'm aware of no article which describes the PP
modification. It's difficult even to find local alternator
repair shops that could assist in making the
modifications . . . although it's usually pretty
simple to figure out once the alternator is cracked
open. There have been some articles that described
total bypassing of the internal regulator for going
the B&C approach . . . but I don't enjoy ready
recall for those documents. Perhaps somebody on
the List has a broader insight to your quest.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator
Date: Aug 15, 2012
There have been some articles that described
total bypassing of the internal regulator for going
the B&C approach . . . but I don't enjoy ready
recall for those documents. Perhaps somebody on
the List has a broader insight to your quest.
Bob . . .
Here is an article published by EAA
for conversion of an internal regulated
to external regulated alternator.
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich(at)dcscorp.com>
Subject: Don't Want to Pay BigBucks for B&C
Date: Aug 15, 2012
I went through the same debate in choosing an alternator. Finally decided t
hat you really do get what you pay for and went with B&C.
No regrets - outstanding performance and customer service.
I have a continually updated mental list of things that might go wrong in f
light based on how my plane is currently performing. Alternator worries are
n't very high on the list (I used Bob's Z13/8 architecture with a B&C SD8 b
ackup).
Paul ValovicRV-8A N192NM
235 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2012
From: Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 08/14/12
Bevan,
Here's an option that might be a fit for you. See if you have a an
old-timer auto electric guy with a good reputation in your area. If so,
you can go to a local junk yard and buy a used older
externally-regulated alternator (40A to 60A) for not much money and
confirm how well it fits. If it fits well, take it to the local
auto-electric guy and have him test and, if necessary, rebuild it for you.
My LongEZ has an old 40A Toyota alternator that, when I got the
airplane, was fried (not to mention the previous owner had apparently
crudely tried to fix it). I took it in the local auto electric
old-timer and, upon looking at it, gave me a sly grin and said "What
kind of race car this come out of?". To which I replied somewhat
guiltily (knowing not to mention anything to do with aircraft if you
want the services of reasonable priced people), "it's off of a custom
off-road trike...". "What engine you got in it?" "It's a four cylinder
horizontally opposed, kind a like a Volkswagen...".
He did a beautiful job rebuilding it and it's worked great ever since.
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07) and flying again (8/11!): N45FC O235 Longeze
Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
On 8/15/2012 12:56 AM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote:
> RE: AeroElectric-List: Which 55-60 amp alternator
________________________________________________________________________________
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Subject: Don't Want to Pay BigBucks for B&C
Date: Aug 15, 2012
I agree, quality almost always pays for itself. I also use the Z13/8 and it's been
great. I've never had to go to backup but it's always nice knowing it's there.
Glenn Long
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:01 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Don't Want to Pay BigBucks for B&C
I went through the same debate in choosing an alternator. Finally decided that
you really do get what you pay for and went with B&C.
No regrets - outstanding performance and customer service.
I have a continually updated mental list of things that might go wrong in flight
based on how my plane is currently performing. Alternator worries aren't very
high on the list (I used Bob's Z13/8 architecture with a B&C SD8 backup).
Paul ValovicRV-8A N192NM
235 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2012
Subject: Re: Don't Want to Pay BigBucks for B&C
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
One time I politely asked the gentleman from B&C why his oil filter
adapter was so much more expensive than the others, and he pointed out
that while he doesn't strive to have the lowest price, he does believe
that he provides the best value. The theory is that you can buy one
of his products instead of two or three of the cheap ones, and save
money in the end. It sounded like a good argument to me, though I
didn't buy his alternator. I got one from Plane Power instead, and
from ACS it was around $350 for the whole package. That seemed like
good economy compared to trying to sort out the crowbar protection and
brackets for the Autozone version. I'm not flying yet, so it may take
a few hundred hours to see if the Plane Power decision ends up saving
money over the B&C. Compared to the auto parts store option, I know
I've already saved money over spending a few days trying to cut and
bend 1/4" steel brackets and opening up the back of the alternator to
get the wires fixed.
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:24 AM, wrote:
>
> I agree, quality almost always pays for itself. I also use the Z13/8 and it's
been great. I've never had to go to backup but it's always nice knowing it's
there.
>
> Glenn Long
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul
> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:01 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Don't Want to Pay BigBucks for B&C
>
> I went through the same debate in choosing an alternator. Finally decided that
you really do get what you pay for and went with B&C.
>
> No regrets - outstanding performance and customer service.
>
> I have a continually updated mental list of things that might go wrong in flight
based on how my plane is currently performing. Alternator worries aren't very
high on the list (I used Bob's Z13/8 architecture with a B&C SD8 backup).
> Paul ValovicRV-8A N192NM
> 235 hours
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator
At 08:56 AM 8/15/2012, you wrote:
>There have been some articles that described
> total bypassing of the internal regulator for going
> the B&C approach . . . but I don't enjoy ready
> recall for those documents. Perhaps somebody on
> the List has a broader insight to your quest.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>Here is an article published by EAA
>
>for conversion of an internal regulated
>
>to external regulated alternator.
>
>
><http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp>http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp
Cool! I'd not seen that particular article. Thanks
for heads-up. A very good article that needed only a few minor
corrections. I've captured the article and mirrored
it with comments at:
http://tinyurl.com/crte9xe
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator
Date: Aug 15, 2012
Thanks everyone, we're getting very close here.
It is still unclear to me which 60 amp ND alternator to start with that will
fit the Van's mounting bracket (Boss mount?). What have other done?
Bevan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger &
Jean Curtis
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 6:57 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Which 55-60 amp alternator
There have been some articles that described
total bypassing of the internal regulator for going
the B&C approach . . . but I don't enjoy ready
recall for those documents. Perhaps somebody on
the List has a broader insight to your quest.
Bob . . .
Here is an article published by EAA
for conversion of an internal regulated
to external regulated alternator.
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator
At 11:50 AM 8/15/2012, you wrote:
>Thanks everyone, we're getting very close here.
>
>It is still unclear to me which 60 amp ND alternator to start with
>that will fit the Van's mounting bracket (Boss mount?). What have other done?
>
>Bevan
>
Here's a wild @#S guess. Here's a Lester #14935 that
fits 85-88 Tercels.
Emacs!
Oriley's offers this one for about $100. It's frame geometry
appears the same as the B&C L-60 and others popular with
the OBAM aviation market.
http://tinyurl.com/8vfkj66
If you've got the mount, you could go down to the local parts
store and fit check the alternator with the mount and measure
the offset from boss-mount bolt holes to the pulley centerline.
Of course, you need to find a new pulley too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2012
From: Bill Settle <billsettle(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Which Crimp Tool
I just purchased a nav light which came with metal pins for 22 awg wire as part
of an AMP-3SK connector kit. Can someone please direct me to the proper crimper
I need for this task?
Thanks,
Bill Settle
RV-8
Winston-Salem, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Which Crimp Tool
At 05:24 PM 8/15/2012, you wrote:
>I just purchased a nav light which came with metal pins for 22 awg
>wire as part of an AMP-3SK connector kit. Can someone please direct
>me to the proper crimper I need for this task?
http://tinyurl.com/9m5mvfy
http://tinyurl.com/9c444zm
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2012
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Mooney Alternator woes
My hangar neighbor is trying to figure out why his alternator occasionally drops
off line - requiring a weird reset sequence. He has to shut off the battery
and field, then go to a low power setting and bring it back up again. Something
about resetting an overvoltage protection device.
It is an M20S with Cont 550 and gear driven alternator. The first regulator lasted
only a couple of years before giving up the ghost and the replacement was
a special from Mooney.
My first line of thinking is to locate the regulator and test it. Nobody knows
where it is hiding.
(I'm in DC - the plane is in DE...I'll be home next weekend to help more.)
Meanwhile, does anyone have an electronic copy of the Light Plane Maintenance article
on troubleshooting alternators...and the Mooney M20S maintenance manual?
If we can find it, I'm hoping that we can determine if the regulator is the culprit.
Thanks in advance,
Ralph
RV6A N822AR in N06 - waiting for my engine/prop to come back from overhaul after
being hit by a flying hangar door!
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Mooney Alternator woes
At 08:27 AM 8/16/2012, you wrote:
My hangar neighbor is trying to figure out why his alternator
occasionally drops off line - requiring a weird reset sequence. He
has to shut off the battery and field, then go to a low power setting
and bring it back up again. Something about resetting an overvoltage
protection device.
It is an M20S with Cont 550 and gear driven alternator. The first
regulator lasted only a couple of years before giving up the ghost
and the replacement was a special from Mooney.
My first line of thinking is to locate the regulator and test
it. Nobody knows where it is hiding.
(I'm in DC - the plane is in DE...I'll be home next weekend to help more.)
Meanwhile, does anyone have an electronic copy of the Light Plane
Maintenance article on troubleshooting alternators...and the Mooney
M20S maintenance manual?
If we can find it, I'm hoping that we can determine if the regulator
is the culprit.
If it takes a southern Slobovian switch-dance to
bring it back on line, it's almost certain to be
something electronic. Is the successful reset sequence
something different than what is called for in the
POH as a response to an OV trip?
I've not had any contact with Mooney in 25+ years. I
bid an alternator controller for them while at
Electro-Mech . . . we didn't get the job. I think
Electrodelta out of White Oak, TX got it. It would
have been a Mooney-unique product. ED has changed
hands and/or moved several times over the years.
The guy who ran ED is still hanging around the
Wichita area. He MIGHT be a resource for help
wrestling with your problem.
The LPM article is not likely to be much help. It
will be VERY generic. If it were my airplane, I'd
jeep another regulator in place of the original to
see if the problem goes away. Given the rarity of
that regulator, I'd probably go for a one-time
STC to install something more contemporary and
available. There's nothing magic about alternator
controllers . . . only the institutionalized and
market driven B.S. in which they reside.
B&C regulators are used elsewhere on current production
airplanes . . . the FAA might look kindly upon
substitution of B&C product for what's already
installed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2012
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: Mooney Alternator woes
There are a couple Mooney email lists that have experts that likely can
help, including factory tech support. The S model isn't all that old, so
there should be good info available.
Mapalist mailing list..which requires membership in MAPA.
Mapalist(at)lists.mooneypilots.com
http://lists.mooneypilots.com/listinfo.cgi/mapalist-mooneypilots.com
<http://lists.mooneypilots.com/listinfo.cgi/mapalist-mooneypilots.com>
Mooney Tech list which is open to all:
http://lists.aviating.com/mailman/listinfo/mooney-tech,
mailto:mooney-tech-request(at)aviating.com?subject=subscribe
On 8/16/2012 6:44 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> At 08:27 AM 8/16/2012, you wrote:
>
>
> My hangar neighbor is trying to figure out why his alternator
> occasionally drops off line - requiring a weird reset sequence. He has
> to shut off the battery and field, then go to a low power setting and
> bring it back up again. Something about resetting an overvoltage
> protection device.
>
> It is an M20S with Cont 550 and gear driven alternator. The first
> regulator lasted only a couple of years before giving up the ghost and
> the replacement was a special from Mooney.
>
> My first line of thinking is to locate the regulator and test it.
> Nobody knows where it is hiding.
> (I'm in DC - the plane is in DE...I'll be home next weekend to help
> more.)
>
> Meanwhile, does anyone have an electronic copy of the Light Plane
> Maintenance article on troubleshooting alternators...and the Mooney
> M20S maintenance manual?
>
> If we can find it, I'm hoping that we can determine if the regulator
> is the culprit.
>
> If it takes a southern Slobovian switch-dance to
> bring it back on line, it's almost certain to be
> something electronic. Is the successful reset sequence
> something different than what is called for in the
> POH as a response to an OV trip?
>
> I've not had any contact with Mooney in 25+ years. I
> bid an alternator controller for them while at
> Electro-Mech . . . we didn't get the job. I think
> Electrodelta out of White Oak, TX got it. It would
> have been a Mooney-unique product. ED has changed
> hands and/or moved several times over the years.
> The guy who ran ED is still hanging around the
> Wichita area. He MIGHT be a resource for help
> wrestling with your problem.
>
> The LPM article is not likely to be much help. It
> will be VERY generic. If it were my airplane, I'd
> jeep another regulator in place of the original to
> see if the problem goes away. Given the rarity of
> that regulator, I'd probably go for a one-time
> STC to install something more contemporary and
> available. There's nothing magic about alternator
> controllers . . . only the institutionalized and
> market driven B.S. in which they reside.
>
> B&C regulators are used elsewhere on current production
> airplanes . . . the FAA might look kindly upon
> substitution of B&C product for what's already
> installed.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2012
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Mooney Alternator woes
Thanks - first step is find the installed regulator. I could probably sub-in the
B&C one from my 6A on a temp basis to see if it works - that'll be a good starting
place...good idea.
I'll ask about the reset sequence to see if it is in the POH.
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>Sent: Aug 16, 2012 9:44 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mooney Alternator woes
>
>
>At 08:27 AM 8/16/2012, you wrote:
>
>
>My hangar neighbor is trying to figure out why his alternator
>occasionally drops off line - requiring a weird reset sequence. He
>has to shut off the battery and field, then go to a low power setting
>and bring it back up again. Something about resetting an overvoltage
>protection device.
>
>It is an M20S with Cont 550 and gear driven alternator. The first
>regulator lasted only a couple of years before giving up the ghost
>and the replacement was a special from Mooney.
>
>My first line of thinking is to locate the regulator and test
>it. Nobody knows where it is hiding.
>(I'm in DC - the plane is in DE...I'll be home next weekend to help more.)
>
>Meanwhile, does anyone have an electronic copy of the Light Plane
>Maintenance article on troubleshooting alternators...and the Mooney
>M20S maintenance manual?
>
>If we can find it, I'm hoping that we can determine if the regulator
>is the culprit.
>
> If it takes a southern Slobovian switch-dance to
> bring it back on line, it's almost certain to be
> something electronic. Is the successful reset sequence
> something different than what is called for in the
> POH as a response to an OV trip?
>
> I've not had any contact with Mooney in 25+ years. I
> bid an alternator controller for them while at
> Electro-Mech . . . we didn't get the job. I think
> Electrodelta out of White Oak, TX got it. It would
> have been a Mooney-unique product. ED has changed
> hands and/or moved several times over the years.
> The guy who ran ED is still hanging around the
> Wichita area. He MIGHT be a resource for help
> wrestling with your problem.
>
> The LPM article is not likely to be much help. It
> will be VERY generic. If it were my airplane, I'd
> jeep another regulator in place of the original to
> see if the problem goes away. Given the rarity of
> that regulator, I'd probably go for a one-time
> STC to install something more contemporary and
> available. There's nothing magic about alternator
> controllers . . . only the institutionalized and
> market driven B.S. in which they reside.
>
> B&C regulators are used elsewhere on current production
> airplanes . . . the FAA might look kindly upon
> substitution of B&C product for what's already
> installed.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2012
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Mooney Alternator woes
Thanks - we'll sign up for them as a resource.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
>Sent: Aug 16, 2012 9:54 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mooney Alternator woes
>
>
>There are a couple Mooney email lists that have experts that likely can
>help, including factory tech support. The S model isn't all that old, so
>there should be good info available.
>Mapalist mailing list..which requires membership in MAPA.
>Mapalist(at)lists.mooneypilots.com
>http://lists.mooneypilots.com/listinfo.cgi/mapalist-mooneypilots.com
><http://lists.mooneypilots.com/listinfo.cgi/mapalist-mooneypilots.com>
>
>Mooney Tech list which is open to all:
>http://lists.aviating.com/mailman/listinfo/mooney-tech,
>mailto:mooney-tech-request(at)aviating.com?subject=subscribe
>
>On 8/16/2012 6:44 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>>
>> At 08:27 AM 8/16/2012, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> My hangar neighbor is trying to figure out why his alternator
>> occasionally drops off line - requiring a weird reset sequence. He has
>> to shut off the battery and field, then go to a low power setting and
>> bring it back up again. Something about resetting an overvoltage
>> protection device.
>>
>> It is an M20S with Cont 550 and gear driven alternator. The first
>> regulator lasted only a couple of years before giving up the ghost and
>> the replacement was a special from Mooney.
>>
>> My first line of thinking is to locate the regulator and test it.
>> Nobody knows where it is hiding.
>> (I'm in DC - the plane is in DE...I'll be home next weekend to help
>> more.)
>>
>> Meanwhile, does anyone have an electronic copy of the Light Plane
>> Maintenance article on troubleshooting alternators...and the Mooney
>> M20S maintenance manual?
>>
>> If we can find it, I'm hoping that we can determine if the regulator
>> is the culprit.
>>
>> If it takes a southern Slobovian switch-dance to
>> bring it back on line, it's almost certain to be
>> something electronic. Is the successful reset sequence
>> something different than what is called for in the
>> POH as a response to an OV trip?
>>
>> I've not had any contact with Mooney in 25+ years. I
>> bid an alternator controller for them while at
>> Electro-Mech . . . we didn't get the job. I think
>> Electrodelta out of White Oak, TX got it. It would
>> have been a Mooney-unique product. ED has changed
>> hands and/or moved several times over the years.
>> The guy who ran ED is still hanging around the
>> Wichita area. He MIGHT be a resource for help
>> wrestling with your problem.
>>
>> The LPM article is not likely to be much help. It
>> will be VERY generic. If it were my airplane, I'd
>> jeep another regulator in place of the original to
>> see if the problem goes away. Given the rarity of
>> that regulator, I'd probably go for a one-time
>> STC to install something more contemporary and
>> available. There's nothing magic about alternator
>> controllers . . . only the institutionalized and
>> market driven B.S. in which they reside.
>>
>> B&C regulators are used elsewhere on current production
>> airplanes . . . the FAA might look kindly upon
>> substitution of B&C product for what's already
>> installed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>-----
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2012
Subject: Shorai Battery Review
From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
Bob et al,
These Shorai batteries are gaining market share in the motorcycle sphere.
Still only anecdotal info as to their safety, longevity and failure modes.
That being said, at 25% of the weight of AGM lead batteries for the same
capacity they offer real advancement in energy storage.
As the numbers in service increase in the ground transport market more
experiential data should become available.
Chris Stone
RV-8
Newberg, OR
** **
** **
** **
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Should battery be charged with a higher voltage?
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2012
An RV-12 owner recently asked a question on VansAirforce about the charging voltage
for the Odyssey PC680 battery. It seems that all of the voltage regulators
that come with the Rotax 912 are factory set at 13.6 - 13.8 volts. The regulators
are sealed; thus no adjustment is possible. This RV-12 owner wanted to
know if the battery should be charged with a higher voltage. So I did some
testing.
I charged up my PC680, and then disconnected the battery charger on Tuesday.
On Wednesday I measured the battery voltage with no load. My cheap meter read
13.01 volts and my Fluke read 13.09 volts. Then I went flying, did some touch
& goes and gave a couple of rides. A total of 1.75 hours accumulated on the
Hobbs and the engine was started a total of 6 times during the day. The starter
uses very little power because the engine starts with only one revolution
of the prop. The longest flight was about 30 minutes. At cruise, the Dynon
D-180 indicated the normal 13.6 volts (which is 0.2 less than what my handheld
voltmeter reads.)
The next day, Thursday, I measured the no-load PC680 voltage: my cheap meter read 12.98 and the Fluke read 13.06 volts. The Odyssey Owner's Manual http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-010_0412.pdf
says that the battery is 100 percent fully charged when the open circuit voltage
is 12.84 or higher. Since my battery voltage is above 12.84, I have come to
the conclusion that the Rotax voltage regulator setting of 13.6 - 13.8 is adequate
for normal operations. If the battery is ever discharged for some reason,
I intend to fully charge it before flying.
Have I come to the correct conclusion about the regulator setting?
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381033#381033
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John MacCallum" <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Shorai Battery Review
Date: Aug 17, 2012
They certainly look and sound the part but Lithium Batteries are prone to
catching fire that is why there is a prohibition on transporting
Them in the holds of Aircraft. The other thing to mention is that such a
light battery will alter your C of G position so you would need to re-do
your weight and balance
Chart.
So maybe more info and a bit more testing or time may be required to
establish their safety..
Cheers
John MacCallum
VH-DUU
RV 10 # 41016
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Christopher Cee Stone
Sent: Friday, 17 August 2012 12:42 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Shorai Battery Review
Bob et al,
These Shorai batteries are gaining market share in the motorcycle sphere.
Still only anecdotal info as to their safety, longevity and failure modes.
That being said, at 25% of the weight of AGM lead batteries for the same
capacity they offer real advancement in energy storage.
As the numbers in service increase in the ground transport market more
experiential data should become available.
Chris Stone
RV-8
Newberg, OR
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John & Sue Dehnert" <bankshire(at)harboursat.com.au>
Subject: Schumacher 1562a
Date: Aug 17, 2012
Hi all have an off subject question, will the Schumacher 1562a charger
maintainer available on Amazon work on the Australian voltage of 240v
ac, Schumacher specifications state input voltage 110-140v ac. Thanks
for any input on the subject . John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Schumacher 1562a
Date: Aug 16, 2012
John,
Probably not without a step-down transformer/voltage converter. If you can't find
a charger-maintainer for your 240v world, you can find voltage converters
on Amazon or E-Bay.
Best regards,
Robert Borger, President
Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc.
Certified Petroleum Geophysicist AAPG#101
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
(H) 940-497-2123
(C) 817-992-1117
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 16, 2012, at 18:55, John & Sue Dehnert wrote:
Hi all have an off subject question, will the Schumacher 1562a charger maintainer
available on Amazon work on the Australian voltage of 240v ac, Schumacher specifications
state input voltage 110-140v ac. Thanks for any input on the subject
. John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Schumacher 1562a
Date: Aug 16, 2012
John;
The international version is model SC1200A, spec sheet attached. (I hope)
Couldn't find a quick source or price, but this is a similar charger other
than the input is 120-240VAC 50/60Hz
The 1562a is 120VAC 60Hz only.
Bob McC
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John &
Sue Dehnert
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:55 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562a
Hi all have an off subject question, will the Schumacher 1562a charger
maintainer available on Amazon work on the Australian voltage of 240v ac,
Schumacher specifications state input voltage 110-140v ac. Thanks for any
input on the subject . John
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Shorai Battery Review
At 09:41 AM 8/16/2012, you wrote:
>Bob et al,
>
>These Shorai batteries are gaining market share in the motorcycle
>sphere. Still only anecdotal info as to their safety, longevity and
>failure modes.
>
>That being said, at 25% of the weight of AGM lead batteries for the
>same capacity they offer real advancement in energy storage.
>
>As the numbers in service increase in the ground transport market
>more experiential data should become available.
They are certainly impressive in terms
of performance but not yet ready for prime
time in the TC aircraft world. Check the
List archives for 5/10 to 5/15 of last year
and the term "lithium battery".
Cessna spent a bucket of money on a Li-FePOH
battery STC and had 50+ airplanes in the field
when they experienced a ramp fire on one of
the lithium installations.
I'd like to run one in a car . . . or motorcycle
but I don't think I'd put one in an airplane
yet.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Should battery be charged with a higher voltage?
>
> Have I come to the correct conclusion about the regulator setting?
>Joe
Yes. A SVLA battery will always charge to 100% of capacity
with a 13.6 to 13.8 volt bus. The reason bus voltages are
set higher is to shorten a cycle time for recharge after
a deep discharge.
But if you always take off with a very lightly taxed
battery then the lower set point is fine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2012
Subject: Re: Should battery be charged with a higher voltage?
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Joe
I have a Rotax 914 not yet flying. I am going to raise the effective
set-point on my Ducati regulator to make my Odyssey PC545 battery a
little happier.
Add a diode:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId545
Read the manual on Odyssey:
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files.htm
Click documentation, you will see that a little higher is desirable.
Ron P.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Should battery be charged with a higher voltage?
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2012
Bob, Thanks for your words of wisdom.
To Ron P,
I could not find any reference to a diode on EuropaOwners.org. But I assume that
the diode is inserted in the regulator sense wire. I had thought about doing
that, but voltage measurements indicate that my battery is kept fully charged
with the 13.6 volt regulator set-point.
The charging instructions in the Oddyssey manual
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/US-ODY-TM-001_0411_000.pdf
pertain to a discharged battery. Since my PC680 battery never gets discharged,
the Continuous Float Charge voltage of 13.6 is adequate.
I appreciate your input.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381060#381060
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Should battery be charged with a higher voltage?
Date: Aug 17, 2012
Even if it were to be somewhat discharged it would still fully charge at th
e 13.6 volt setting=2C it would just take longer to do so assuming the alte
rnator has some headroom above the "normal" electrical loads of the aircraf
t.
Bob McC
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Should battery be charged with a higher v
oltage?
> From: fran4sew(at)banyanol.com
> Date: Fri=2C 17 Aug 2012 02:50:24 -0700
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
m>
>
> Bob=2C Thanks for your words of wisdom.
> To Ron P=2C
> I could not find any reference to a diode on EuropaOwners.org. But I ass
ume that the diode is inserted in the regulator sense wire. I had thought
about doing that=2C but voltage measurements indicate that my battery is ke
pt fully charged with the 13.6 volt regulator set-point.
> The charging instructions in the Oddyssey manual
> http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/US-ODY-TM-001_0411_000.pdf
> pertain to a discharged battery. Since my PC680 battery never gets disch
arged=2C the Continuous Float Charge voltage of 13.6 is adequate.
> I appreciate your input.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381060#381060
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2012
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Mooney Alternator woes
Will my B&C LR3C-14 regulator properly control the Continental's alternator? I
can easily set this up for a ground-run test....
Are there different regulators based on current output capability?
Thanks again!
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>Sent: Aug 16, 2012 9:44 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mooney Alternator woes
>
>
>At 08:27 AM 8/16/2012, you wrote:
>
>
>My hangar neighbor is trying to figure out why his alternator
>occasionally drops off line - requiring a weird reset sequence. He
>has to shut off the battery and field, then go to a low power setting
>and bring it back up again. Something about resetting an overvoltage
>protection device.
>
>It is an M20S with Cont 550 and gear driven alternator. The first
>regulator lasted only a couple of years before giving up the ghost
>and the replacement was a special from Mooney.
>
>My first line of thinking is to locate the regulator and test
>it. Nobody knows where it is hiding.
>(I'm in DC - the plane is in DE...I'll be home next weekend to help more.)
>
>Meanwhile, does anyone have an electronic copy of the Light Plane
>Maintenance article on troubleshooting alternators...and the Mooney
>M20S maintenance manual?
>
>If we can find it, I'm hoping that we can determine if the regulator
>is the culprit.
>
> If it takes a southern Slobovian switch-dance to
> bring it back on line, it's almost certain to be
> something electronic. Is the successful reset sequence
> something different than what is called for in the
> POH as a response to an OV trip?
>
> I've not had any contact with Mooney in 25+ years. I
> bid an alternator controller for them while at
> Electro-Mech . . . we didn't get the job. I think
> Electrodelta out of White Oak, TX got it. It would
> have been a Mooney-unique product. ED has changed
> hands and/or moved several times over the years.
> The guy who ran ED is still hanging around the
> Wichita area. He MIGHT be a resource for help
> wrestling with your problem.
>
> The LPM article is not likely to be much help. It
> will be VERY generic. If it were my airplane, I'd
> jeep another regulator in place of the original to
> see if the problem goes away. Given the rarity of
> that regulator, I'd probably go for a one-time
> STC to install something more contemporary and
> available. There's nothing magic about alternator
> controllers . . . only the institutionalized and
> market driven B.S. in which they reside.
>
> B&C regulators are used elsewhere on current production
> airplanes . . . the FAA might look kindly upon
> substitution of B&C product for what's already
> installed.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Mooney Alternator woes
At 10:45 AM 8/17/2012, you wrote:
>
>
>Will my B&C LR3C-14 regulator properly control the Continental's
>alternator? I can easily set this up for a ground-run test....
Yes
>Are there different regulators based on current output capability?
Generally no. The smallest of 35A alternators draws
about 3A max . . . so does a 100A machine. There's
an advantage for keeping field currents low (control
of internally dissipated heat). Larger machines just
get more magnetic flux by more turns of larger wire
and keeping the field current manageable.
Further, unlike generators, the closed loop dynamics
of alternators fall into a much smaller universe of
characteristics such that regulators can be quite
generic. The B&C linear regulator was optimized for
the B&C alternators and may not be as nimble footed
for transient response on a 'foreign' alternator but
not bad enough to raise risk for the success of the
experiment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2012
Subject: snorkel for alternator cooling
From: Janet Amtmann <jgamtmann2(at)gmail.com>
Hello all,
This is only marginally electric, but I need information. My RV6 has no
alternator cooling other than the (reverse rotation) internal cooling fan.
I'd like to install a snorkel to capture some cooling air at the air inlet
ramp and lead it (tru a hose) to the rear of the alternator. Does anyone
know of a source for these little alum. snorkels? I have no means to weld,
braze or solder alum. I guess that I could make one out of an old tin can,
but that's kind of tacky.
Regards, Jurgen Amtmann
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fisher Paul A." <FisherPaulA(at)johndeere.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2012
Subject: snorkel for alternator cooling
How about Aircraft Spruce? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/du
ctflanges.php
- Paul
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Janet Amtmann
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 1:25 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: snorkel for alternator cooling
Hello all,
This is only marginally electric, but I need information. My RV6 has no al
ternator cooling other than the (reverse rotation) internal cooling fan. I
'd like to install a snorkel to capture some cooling air at the air inlet r
amp and lead it (tru a hose) to the rear of the alternator. Does anyone kn
ow of a source for these little alum. snorkels? I have no means to weld, b
raze or solder alum. I guess that I could make one out of an old tin can,
but that's kind of tacky.
Regards, Jurgen Amtmann
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: snorkel for alternator cooling
At 01:25 PM 8/17/2012, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>This is only marginally electric, but I need information. My RV6
>has no alternator cooling other than the (reverse rotation) internal
>cooling fan. I'd like to install a snorkel to capture some cooling
>air at the air inlet ramp and lead it (tru a hose) to the rear of
>the alternator. Does anyone know of a source for these little alum.
>snorkels? I have no means to weld, braze or solder alum. I guess
>that I could make one out of an old tin can, but that's kind of tacky.
Are you sure you need one? I'm aware of
no alternator installations in an RV that
experienced difficulties attributable to
overheating.
Is there something different about the
way your alternator is installed where
it has been confirmed that extra-ordinary
cooling is needed?
Way back when, we used to do max hot day
climbs at best angle with an alternator
at full load . . . and then justify the
state of the machine's cooling. Truth is
that an alternator never gets operated that
way. So what ever cooling was added to meet
that capricious demand was wasted effort.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2012
From: David <dlposey-atlanta(at)att.net>
Subject: Fwd: Fw: WWII nostalgia folks...: History / THANKS,
MEL..
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2012
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Mooney Alternator woes
>> Will my B&C LR3C-14 regulator properly control the Continental's
>> alternator? I can easily set this up for a ground-run test....
>
> Yes
>
Just wonder, Ralph you've told, that your B&C is from a RV-6? That would
probably be a 14V system where the Mooney has a 28V System, just
carefully check.
Cheers Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John MacCallum" <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Schumacher 1562a
Date: Aug 18, 2012
>From the specs you have given I don't think it will. If it has a Transformer
with multiple taps on the primary winding you may be able to get someone to
alter the taps for you. If it hasn't got multiple taps on the Primary you
will need a new transformer.
If it's switch mode then you are stuck with the 110-140 vac unless you buy a
step down transformer. 240 to 110 Vac.
Cheers
John MacCallum
Builder #41016
VH-DUU
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John &
Sue Dehnert
Sent: Friday, 17 August 2012 10:55 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562a
Hi all have an off subject question, will the Schumacher 1562a charger
maintainer available on Amazon work on the Australian voltage of 240v ac,
Schumacher specifications state input voltage 110-140v ac. Thanks for any
input on the subject . John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>
Subject: Re: snorkel for alternator cooling
Date: Aug 17, 2012
Maybe cut one out of an old aluminum lawn chair leg?
----- Original Message -----
From: Janet Amtmann
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:25 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: snorkel for alternator cooling
Hello all,
This is only marginally electric, but I need information. My RV6 has
no alternator cooling other than the (reverse rotation) internal cooling
fan. I'd like to install a snorkel to capture some cooling air at the
air inlet ramp and lead it (tru a hose) to the rear of the alternator.
Does anyone know of a source for these little alum. snorkels? I have no
means to weld, braze or solder alum. I guess that I could make one out
of an old tin can, but that's kind of tacky.
Regards, Jurgen Amtmann
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mark donahue" <markdonahue(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: snorkel for alternator cooling
Date: Aug 17, 2012
can you use the flexible 5/8 in corragated plastic material that we are
using to direct air to our magnetos and alternators on the RV 9? Van sells
it.
Mark Donahue
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of F. Tim
Yoder
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: snorkel for alternator cooling
Maybe cut one out of an old aluminum lawn chair leg?
----- Original Message -----
From: Janet Amtmann <mailto:jgamtmann2(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:25 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: snorkel for alternator cooling
Hello all,
This is only marginally electric, but I need information. My RV6 has no
alternator cooling other than the (reverse rotation) internal cooling fan.
I'd like to install a snorkel to capture some cooling air at the air inlet
ramp and lead it (tru a hose) to the rear of the alternator. Does anyone
know of a source for these little alum. snorkels? I have no means to weld,
braze or solder alum. I guess that I could make one out of an old tin can,
but that's kind of tacky.
Regards, Jurgen Amtmann
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2012
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: snorkel for alternator cooling
I wouldn't recommend it. It is nylon material IIRC. OK but not great
for warm temps under cowling.
Scat tube would be the aviation product of choice.
On 8/17/2012 7:24 PM, mark donahue wrote:
>
> can you use the flexible 5/8 in corragated plastic material that we
> are using to direct air to our magnetos and alternators on the RV 9?
> Van sells it.
>
> Mark Donahue
>
> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *F. Tim Yoder
> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 6:04 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: snorkel for alternator cooling
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2012
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: snorkel for alternator cooling
FWIW Here's some dead soft aluminum tubing. I don't know if 5/8 is
large enough for your needs.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/3003versatube.php
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 08/17/2012 01:25 PM, Janet Amtmann wrote:
> Hello all,
> This is only marginally electric, but I need information. My RV6 has no
> alternator cooling other than the (reverse rotation) internal cooling
> fan. I'd like to install a snorkel to capture some cooling air at the
> air inlet ramp and lead it (tru a hose) to the rear of the alternator.
> Does anyone know of a source for these little alum. snorkels? I have
> no means to weld, braze or solder alum. I guess that I could make one
> out of an old tin can, but that's kind of tacky.
>
> Regards, Jurgen Amtmann
> >
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Ciolino" <JohnCiolino(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: snorkel for alternator cooling
Date: Aug 18, 2012
Here's what I did: ACS sells a 1" aluminum flange (p/n 10350-4). Drill a
1" hole in the inlet ramp and rivet the flange in place.
If you are good at bending aluminum tubing also order some 1" tubing and you
are all set.
I tried that and couldn't get the tubing bent without kinking so I used some
1" SCAT tubing. To keep the tubing in place I took a strip of flat aluminum,
bent it to direct the tubing to the alternator and attached it to the flange
with a hose clamp. I attached the tubing to the aluminum with tie wraps.
Good luck.
John Ciolino
RV-8
N894Y
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Janet
Amtmann
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 2:25 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: snorkel for alternator cooling
Hello all,
This is only marginally electric, but I need information. My RV6 has no
alternator cooling other than the (reverse rotation) internal cooling fan.
I'd like to install a snorkel to capture some cooling air at the air inlet
ramp and lead it (tru a hose) to the rear of the alternator. Does anyone
know of a source for these little alum. snorkels? I have no means to weld,
braze or solder alum. I guess that I could make one out of an old tin can,
but that's kind of tacky.
Regards, Jurgen Amtmann
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: snorkel for alternator cooling
From: Chris Hand <chris_hand(at)comcast.net>
Date: Aug 18, 2012
I used the corrugated tubing from Vans for alternator cooling on my -6A and it
works fine. Feeds from inlet ramp on that side down to alternator and haven't
had a problem with it, flying about 4 years / 310 hours or so. The tube grooves
and a little rtv have held it in place without issue. Light, easy, and inexpensive.
Chris
On Aug 17, 2012, at 7:42 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> I wouldn't recommend it. It is nylon material IIRC. OK but not great for warm
temps under cowling.
> Scat tube would be the aviation product of choice.
>
> On 8/17/2012 7:24 PM, mark donahue wrote:
>>
>> can you use the flexible 5/8 in corragated plastic material that we are using
to direct air to our magnetos and alternators on the RV 9? Van sells it.
>>
>> Mark Donahue
>>
>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *F. Tim Yoder
>> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 6:04 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: snorkel for alternator cooling
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Mooney Alternator woes
At 05:58 PM 8/17/2012, you wrote:
>
>
>>>Will my B&C LR3C-14 regulator properly control the Continental's
>>>alternator? I can easily set this up for a ground-run test....
>>
>> Yes
>Just wonder, Ralph you've told, that your B&C is from a RV-6? That
>would probably be a 14V system where the Mooney has a 28V System,
>just carefully check.
Excellent catch Werner! I didn't perceived he was talking
about an LR3C-14, of course he would need the -28. Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2012
From: John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com>
Subject: Re: snorkel for alternator cooling
I found a grey PVC conduit 90 degree fitting with a 4" radius at the
Home Depot aviation electronics department. Also, look around your
favorite auto parts store for a pre-shaped radiator hose.
john
On 8/17/2012 7:42 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>
> I wouldn't recommend it. It is nylon material IIRC. OK but not great
> for warm temps under cowling.
> Scat tube would be the aviation product of choice.
>
> On 8/17/2012 7:24 PM, mark donahue wrote:
>>
>> can you use the flexible 5/8 in corragated plastic material that we
>> are using to direct air to our magnetos and alternators on the RV 9?
>> Van sells it.
>>
>> Mark Donahue
>>
>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>> *F. Tim Yoder
>> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 6:04 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: snorkel for alternator cooling
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: snorkel for alternator cooling
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Aug 18, 2012
Jurgen,
I've attached a photo of a possible solution. I had the same concerns as you because
I have a plenum capturing all the cooling ram air and directing it through
the cylinders. My engine installation is battery/electrical system dependent
(fuel pumps, EFI & ignition) so I wanted a little insurance for my reversed-fan
alternator.
I fabricated the alternator diode plate plenum in the picture from fiberglass and
vinyl-ester resin. The resin will withstand 220 deg before going plastic. Epoxy
resin systems will also work. Just check to see that the transition temp
meets your needs.
You can use the stamped cooling shroud as a mold for your part.
Connect to ram air source with SCAT tube size of your choice. I used 3/4".
Good luck,
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381152#381152
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/franklin_alternator_001_large_129.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Burbidge <mburbidg(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Stripping large wires...
Date: Aug 18, 2012
I have one of the quality wire strippers from B&C, but it only strips up to 16
awg wire. How do you strip larger wire. For example, I need to strip some 8 awg
wire for my power runs. Is 8 awg stranded wire bigger around than 8 awg solid
wire?
Thanks,
Michael-
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2012
From: Dennis Roche <r8751(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Learn How to Make Money Online Fast http://bestkaleto.com/horkdsc12.php?tuyahooID=1ya6
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Stripping large wires...
At 04:40 PM 8/18/2012, you wrote:
>
>I have one of the quality wire strippers from B&C, but it only
>strips up to 16 awg wire. How do you strip larger wire. For example,
>I need to strip some 8 awg wire for my power runs. Is 8 awg stranded
>wire bigger around than 8 awg solid wire?
I don't have tools for stripping anything larger
than 14AWG. All the big stuff I just score carefully
with the ol' Swiss Army Knife and use a pair of diagonal
cutters to pull of the discard. Do a few practice strips
to get the hang of it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/18/12
Date: Aug 19, 2012
From: "James Meade" <jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
From Wikipedia. See the reference tables to confirm the entry.
"The AWG tables are for a single, solid, round conductor. The AWG of a
stranded wire is determined by the total cross-sectional area of the
conductor, which determines its current-carrying capacity and electrical
resistance. Because there are also small gaps between the strands, a
stranded wire will always have a slightly larger overall diameter than a
solid wire with the same AWG."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: snorkel for alternator cooling
At 11:58 AM 8/18/2012, you wrote:
Thanks to everyone who replied.
Bob N. Thanks for your explanation. No, nothing special about my
alternator installation, N-D in the standard position for a Lyc. I
was only concerned because someone who had done the cooling duct on
an RV6 was concerned because I had none. I thought better safe than sorry.
Added cooling doesn't hurt anything . . . usually.
We added a scupper on the fuselage of the single engine
airplanes at Cessna way back when to bring outside
ram air into the radio stack. I recall a flurry of
activity over that installation when a customer
reported damage to radios due to ingress of rain!
On the other hand, 'things' added to any project
has a cost of ownership in $time$ to install and
maintain that thing . . . and loss of weight and
volume resources for having installed it. Alternator
cooling has been a hot topic of discussion on the
various OBAM aviation forums since I've been
participating. Folks have attributed many failures
of alternators to 'a lack of cooling' but without
supporting evidence.
I have yet to see any MEASUREMENTS of performance
that suggests a reduction of risk for cost or safety
for having added cooling to the alternator.
I'm not suggesting that you should not add the
cooling . . . I have no basis for asserting ANY
justification one way or the other. Intuitively,
I have observed what happens under the hood of
my car for an alternator that gets heavily loaded
in the worst of local temperature and airflow
conditions yet it has hummed along nicely for
11+ years and 170,000 miles . . . without a forced
air cooling feature.
The scat tube is light, the time expended in
the grand scheme of things is small. But it
would be really interesting to know if the effort
has any beneficial effect.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: snorkel for alternator cooling
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Aug 19, 2012
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 11:58 AM 8/18/2012, you wrote:
> ... snip
>
> The scat tube is light, the time expended in
> the grand scheme of things is small. But it
> would be really interesting to know if the effort
> has any beneficial effect.
>
>
> Bob . . .
The cooling shroud that I built and the scat tube (7") are a few ounces and part
of the "mission" of this project has been to have fun.Designing and fabbing
this thing qualifies.
Knowing that I was going to build an airplane that was dependent on electrowhizzies
to keep air underneath the wheels, I asked an old-school alternator/starter
repair shop guy (the kind of place with alternators up to the rafters and
huge, antediluvian black machines peppered with large analog meters and cats sleeping
on top) for the best way to keep alternators alive and he said to just
keep the diode plate(s) cool.
So that is what I did. For both alternators [Wink]
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381243#381243
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2012
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: 24 volt inverter
There is a small 12 to 24 volt inverter suitable for running things like
a Turn and Bank instrument for $2.99 on ebay. Free shipping. Adjustable
output, 2 amp, 10 watt nominal or higher with cooling. Having abused one
of these a fair bit, I found them surprisingly robust so I thought I'd
mention them. My T&B only draws 0.06 amp when running but I needed a 2.5
amp C/B to handle the startup current.
ebay item 180924154518
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2012
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Recording a NMEA GPS stream
Guys,
Does anyone know anything about Arduino <http://arduino.cc/en/> boards?
Can these devices be used to monitor an NMEA datastream and record to
USB stick or SD card?
This may sound really basic to some, but it is a question that has been
occasionally exercising my brain on and off for some years, how to
record the NMEA datastream from a GPS device? About 12 years ago I was
involved in re-instrumenting a glider that required the GPS to provide
data to a glide computer that provided data to a PDA. I had only worked
with 1553 before that and had to learn about NMEA. The PDA software
vendor provided a utility that would record the datastream - which was
very useful in debugging that installation.
Since then I have occasionally wanted to record a NMEA datastream, but
not so much that I really looked into it seriously. I have recently
re-built my panel <http://www.glosterairparts.co.uk/images/After2.jpg>.
The GPS feeds into the EFIS are not working properly so now I _need_ a
datastream monitor - this device seems like it might do the trick.
Does anyone have any experience using such a board or are there any
resources on-line that explain how to do this?
Thanks, Pete
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Recording a NMEA GPS stream
At 04:01 PM 8/20/2012, you wrote:
>Guys,
>
>Does anyone know anything about <http://arduino.cc/en/>Arduino
>boards? Can these devices be used to monitor an NMEA datastream and
>record to USB stick or SD card?
Sure. There are several add-ons to the
generic Arduino boards to talk to SD cards,
thumbdrives, etc.
http://tinyurl.com/8m7m7sb
The NMEA data stream is plain vanilla
RS232 levels and formatted data streams
of data delivered in a series of bytes.
I'm sure you could set up a board to
simply record the data as presented or
you could parse the string out to record
say lat, lot, gs, crs, and date-time . . .
a sort of second by second logbook of where
you've been and how fast you got there.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 24 volt inverter
At 12:38 PM 8/20/2012, you wrote:
>
>There is a small 12 to 24 volt inverter suitable for running things
>like a Turn and Bank instrument for $2.99 on ebay. Free shipping.
>Adjustable output, 2 amp, 10 watt nominal or higher with cooling.
>Having abused one of these a fair bit, I found them surprisingly
>robust so I thought I'd mention them. My T&B only draws 0.06 amp
>when running but I needed a 2.5 amp C/B to handle the startup current.
>
>ebay item 180924154518
Good data point Ken. Thanks. I've got a little
bit heftier boost supply coming to fabricate
into a 19v supply for laptops in the car. Right
now, Dr. Dee plugs in a 12Dc->120AC inverter,
then the 120AC->19DC supply with the attendant
snarl of cords.
Tucking one of these boost supplies behind the
glove box with appropriate connectors on
the console will eliminate the spider web of
wire and monkey motion black boxes to a single
cord with a 5.5x2.5 connector on each end.
The supply was $9 delivered to my po box.
http://tinyurl.com/9djfxmr
You might want to poke around the installed
supply wiring with your hand-held tuned to
unused channels and the squelch open. Just
be aware of any potential for interference with
your VHF AM hardware. Even if you do find some
detectable noise, don't go on a crusade to tame
it until you know if it's strong enough to be
a problem. Being aware is forewarned. The hand-held
sniff-test is pretty sensitive and may detect
emissions that are insignificant to your installation
and use of the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2012
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: Recording a NMEA GPS stream
Well, a little more surfing has revealed this device
ArduLog Data Logger <http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/arduino/ardulog>
looks like what I need, and less than 15. I know this is a UK site, but
similar stuff must exist in the US. I guess 5v from a GPS cigarette
lighter power supply will work to power it.
Pete
On 20/08/2012 22:01, Peter Pengilly wrote:
> Guys,
>
> Does anyone know anything about Arduino <http://arduino.cc/en/>
> boards? Can these devices be used to monitor an NMEA datastream and
> record to USB stick or SD card?
>
> This may sound really basic to some, but it is a question that has
> been occasionally exercising my brain on and off for some years, how
> to record the NMEA datastream from a GPS device? About 12 years ago I
> was involved in re-instrumenting a glider that required the GPS to
> provide data to a glide computer that provided data to a PDA. I had
> only worked with 1553 before that and had to learn about NMEA. The PDA
> software vendor provided a utility that would record the datastream -
> which was very useful in debugging that installation.
>
> Since then I have occasionally wanted to record a NMEA datastream, but
> not so much that I really looked into it seriously. I have recently
> re-built my panel
> <http://www.glosterairparts.co.uk/images/After2.jpg>. The GPS feeds
> into the EFIS are not working properly so now I _need_ a datastream
> monitor - this device seems like it might do the trick.
>
> Does anyone have any experience using such a board or are there any
> resources on-line that explain how to do this?
>
> Thanks, Pete
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Recording a NMEA GPS stream
> The GPS feeds into the EFIS are not working properly so now I need
> a datastream monitor - this device seems like it might do the trick.
Hmmm . . . I missed this point the first pass through
your query. For a troubleshooting monitor, you may
be better served with a lap-top configured with an
RS-232 to USB adapter and a utility to read data
streams and put them up on the screen in real time
either as a scrolling presentation . . . or parse
of some interesting words and display current values
in a box on the screen.
I used to do this kind of stuff all the time at
Beech/RAC/HBC. I could get my laptop and data acquisition
system going and installed before the legacy service
organizations could get their work orders approved
and funded. Damn it was nice to have a dedicated
budget for such things!
Did all my lap-top work in compiled basic.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Fordham" <fconsult(at)telus.net>
Subject: Garmin 327 problem
Date: Aug 20, 2012
Just hoping someone else has run across this problem and better still
has a solution. I have a new Garmin 327 installed in a ragwing aircraft.
When the Transponder is switched to Alt. the correct altitude shows up
on the Garmin but the controllers can't read the altitude, the Ident
function works. It's a stand alone Transcal encoder.
Thanks Kit
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Henry Hallam <henry(at)pericynthion.org>
Date: Aug 20, 2012
Subject: Re: Garmin 327 problem
Probably an issue with the transponder antenna or connection between
the antenna and the transponder. A marginal connection between the
xpdr and antenna can give a weak return signal that is strong enough
for Mode A / Ident but not strong enough for Mode C. The correct
altitude readout on the Garmin 327 indicates that the encoder and
encoder-transponder connection is fine.
Good luck,
Henry
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Chris Fordham wrote:
> Just hoping someone else has run across this problem and better still has a
> solution. I have a new Garmin 327 installed in a ragwing aircraft. When the
> Transponder is switched to Alt. the correct altitude shows up on the Garmin
> but the controllers can't read the altitude, the Ident function works. It's
> a stand alone Transcal encoder.
> Thanks Kit
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2012
Subject: Re: Recording a NMEA GPS stream
From: "Jeff B." <loboflyer(at)gmail.com>
If you're really interested in embedded programming and you want to avoid
the laptop, the Arduinos probably will fit the bill. However, if you just
want to troubleshoot NMEA, then a laptop with serial port (or USB adapter)
and software would be fastest. You can probably tap off the GPS' TxD pin
to your laptop's RxD pin.
A Google search turns up a few programs, none of which I have experience
with, but all look useful of some sort.
http://www.visualgps.net/visualgps/
http://homepage2.nifty.com/k8/gps/
http://www.aviadesign.com/Monitor/
-Jeff-
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> The GPS feeds into the EFIS are not working properly so now I *need* a
> datastream monitor - this device seems like it might do the trick.
>
>
> Hmmm . . . I missed this point the first pass through
> your query. For a troubleshooting monitor, you may
> be better served with a lap-top configured with an
> RS-232 to USB adapter and a utility to read data
> streams and put them up on the screen in real time
> either as a scrolling presentation . . . or parse
> of some interesting words and display current values
> in a box on the screen.
>
> I used to do this kind of stuff all the time at
> Beech/RAC/HBC. I could get my laptop and data acquisition
> system going and installed before the legacy service
> organizations could get their work orders approved
> and funded. Damn it was nice to have a dedicated
> budget for such things!
>
> Did all my lap-top work in compiled basic.
>
>
> **
>
> ** Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RS-232 Data Logger
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 21, 2012
Pete,
If you don't program C, you may find PICAXE controllers a little friendlier to
work with than Arduino. The PICAXE boards require more physical prep, but there's
block diagram programming software available that makes getting it to do
what you want simple.
http://www.picaxe.com/
WRT Arduino data logging hardware, see the following:
http://www.sparkfun.com/
http://adafruit.com/
http://www.dx.com/
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 21, 2012
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: Recording a NMEA GPS stream
Thanks for all the pointers - I don't have a laptop at present so
figured a small datalogger would be cheaper!
Peter
On 21/08/2012 05:44, Jeff B. wrote:
> If you're really interested in embedded programming and you want to
> avoid the laptop, the Arduinos probably will fit the bill. However,
> if you just want to troubleshoot NMEA, then a laptop with serial port
> (or USB adapter) and software would be fastest. You can probably tap
> off the GPS' TxD pin to your laptop's RxD pin.
>
> A Google search turns up a few programs, none of which I have
> experience with, but all look useful of some sort.
>
> http://www.visualgps.net/visualgps/
> http://homepage2.nifty.com/k8/gps/
> http://www.aviadesign.com/Monitor/
>
>
> -Jeff-
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> >
> wrote:
>
>> The GPS feeds into the EFIS are not working properly so now I
>> _need_ a datastream monitor - this device seems like it might do
>> the trick.
>
> Hmmm . . . I missed this point the first pass through
> your query. For a troubleshooting monitor, you may
> be better served with a lap-top configured with an
> RS-232 to USB adapter and a utility to read data
> streams and put them up on the screen in real time
> either as a scrolling presentation . . . or parse
> of some interesting words and display current values
> in a box on the screen.
>
> I used to do this kind of stuff all the time at
> Beech/RAC/HBC. I could get my laptop and data acquisition
> system going and installed before the legacy service
> organizations could get their work orders approved
> and funded. Damn it was nice to have a dedicated
> budget for such things!
>
> Did all my lap-top work in compiled basic.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Henry Hallam <henry(at)pericynthion.org>
Date: Aug 21, 2012
Subject: Re: Recording a NMEA GPS stream
The combination of these two should do nicely, no coding required (but
you can also use them to learn about microcontrollers if you want to):
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10216
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8780
Henry
On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
> Thanks for all the pointers - I don't have a laptop at present so figured a
> small datalogger would be cheaper!
>
> Peter
>
>
> On 21/08/2012 05:44, Jeff B. wrote:
>
> If you're really interested in embedded programming and you want to avoid
> the laptop, the Arduinos probably will fit the bill. However, if you just
> want to troubleshoot NMEA, then a laptop with serial port (or USB adapter)
> and software would be fastest. You can probably tap off the GPS' TxD pin to
> your laptop's RxD pin.
>
> A Google search turns up a few programs, none of which I have experience
> with, but all look useful of some sort.
>
> http://www.visualgps.net/visualgps/
> http://homepage2.nifty.com/k8/gps/
> http://www.aviadesign.com/Monitor/
>
>
> -Jeff-
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> wrote:
>>
>> The GPS feeds into the EFIS are not working properly so now I need a
>> datastream monitor - this device seems like it might do the trick.
>>
>>
>> Hmmm . . . I missed this point the first pass through
>> your query. For a troubleshooting monitor, you may
>> be better served with a lap-top configured with an
>> RS-232 to USB adapter and a utility to read data
>> streams and put them up on the screen in real time
>> either as a scrolling presentation . . . or parse
>> of some interesting words and display current values
>> in a box on the screen.
>>
>> I used to do this kind of stuff all the time at
>> Beech/RAC/HBC. I could get my laptop and data acquisition
>> system going and installed before the legacy service
>> organizations could get their work orders approved
>> and funded. Damn it was nice to have a dedicated
>> budget for such things!
>>
>> Did all my lap-top work in compiled basic.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Recording a NMEA GPS stream
From: "Brantel" <brianchesteen(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 21, 2012
I made one of these a while back. Works great!
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=84045
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381485#381485
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 21, 2012
Subject: Low Voltage Disconnect needed
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Group
I am need of Low Voltage Cutoff.
Requirements are:
** Ability to handle 10 amps
** When there is a 750mA load, cutoff should occur ~ 11.9 and 12.1 volts
** Minimal parts count, ease of fabrication and low cost
** Somehow once Low Voltage Cutoff threshold is reached, only the secret
reed switch (or switches) can reset or bypass things so the battery
charger (needs voltage to recognize a battery is hooked up ) can charge,
idea is there will be a rare earth magnet in the 12 volt male cigarette
lighter plug (attached to the charger) and reed switch/s on the outside
of the female receptacle on the battery pack)
** Unless the design allows for very reliable use of Mosfet that
isn't going to fail if you look at them the wrong way and even
whisper "static electricity", a relay is fine
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Adding an electrical system
From: speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 22, 2012
I am adding an electrical system to a PT-22 per a customer's request. It w
ill consist of an overhauled Eclipse Y-150 starter, a RG battery, starter s
witch and contactor, a switched bus to power a Becker radio and transponder
, a wind driven generator, and associated wiring.
Does anyone have experience with adding electrical to a PT-22?
Any gotchas?
I can't find any generator or alternator that is approved for the PT engine
, that's the reason for the wind generator. It will only produce about 5 a
mps, so it will barely power the transponder and slowly recharge the batter
y and allow occasional radio transmission.
Since I'm doing a form 337 for the change, I should be able to use any batt
ery. So, we're considering a PC-680 or a lithium ion battery such as the A
erovoltz. Otherwise, we'll us a RG-35AXC.
Comments?
Thanks,
Stan Sutterfield
Port Orange, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Disconnect needed
At 07:17 PM 8/21/2012, you wrote:
>Hi Group
>
>I am need of Low Voltage Cutoff.
>
>Requirements are:
>
>** Ability to handle 10 amps
>
>** When there is a 750mA load, cutoff should occur ~ 11.9 and 12.1 volts
>
>** Minimal parts count, ease of fabrication and low cost
>
>** Somehow once Low Voltage Cutoff threshold is reached, only the
>secret reed switch (or switches) can reset or bypass things so the
>battery charger (needs voltage to recognize a battery is hooked up )
>can charge, idea is there will be a rare earth magnet in the 12 volt
>male cigarette lighter plug (attached to the charger) and reed
>switch/s on the outside of the female receptacle on the battery pack)
>
>** Unless the design allows for very reliable use
>of Mosfet that isn't going to fail if you look at them the wrong way
>and even whisper "static electricity", a relay is fine
Here's both all solid state and a relay version
of what I think you asked for. I'd go with the
MosFet version. FETs are quite rugged these days.
http://tinyurl.com/9lc72qs
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Adding an electrical system
At 11:14 PM 8/21/2012, you wrote:
I am adding an electrical system to a PT-22 per a
customer's request. It will consist of an
overhauled Eclipse Y-150 starter, a RG battery,
starter switch and contactor, a switched bus to
power a Becker radio and transponder, a wind
driven generator, and associated wiring.
Does anyone have experience with adding electrical to a PT-22?
Any gotchas?
I can't find any generator or alternator that is
approved for the PT engine, that's the reason for
the wind generator. It will only produce about 5
amps, so it will barely power the transponder and
slowly recharge the battery and allow occasional radio transmission.
Since I'm doing a form 337 for the change, I
should be able to use any battery. So, we're
considering a PC-680 or a lithium ion battery
such as the Aerovoltz. Otherwise, we'll us a RG-35AXC.
What are your design goals for the installation and
how do you envision it will be used operationally?
Will this airplane be used for cross-country flight?
Is it parked in a location serviced by AC mains power?
Keep in mind that cranking an engine from the
typical battery takes only 5% or so of that
battery's capacity. Transponders take typically
2 amps to operate when generating lots of replies.
If I recall correctly, the Becker was designed
for battery only ops in gliders. It's power
demans are:
Standby" reception mode =A3 70 mA
Reception mode =A3 500 mA
Transmission mode =A3 2.5 A
Energy demands for this instance are trivial.
Further, it has a low voltage warning built
in set to trigger at 10.5 volts.
http://tinyurl.com/9upvqxg
An RG-35 is a beast of a battery . . . 30+
pounds as I recall. B&C did some cranking tests
on the SMALLER cousin to the PC-680 and found
that it would do a 10-blade crank of a high
compression engine (aerobatic aircraft), 5
times in a row (with about a minute cool down
between events). The PC-680 should do better
yet.
How about NO generator, a PC-680 as the only
battery and a Battery Minder plugged in while
the airplane is parked? Li-FePOH batteries
are low risk because you're not going to charge
it at a high rate while airborne . . . and it
can be recharged at a benign rate while hangared.
But take care also that you do not heavily discharge
it between flights as they're more sensitive to
deep cycle damage than their SVLA cousins.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2012
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: Recording a NMEA GPS stream
Cool, thanks!
On 22/08/2012 00:11, Brantel wrote:
>
> I made one of these a while back. Works great!
>
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=84045
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381485#381485
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 23, 2012
Subject: Re:Adding an electrical system
Bob,
Your points are all well taken.
But, the customer wants a complete electrical system installed including
some type of charging system. I suggested to him that the demand on the
battery will be nominal for the short 1 hours flights he plans in the
airplane. There will be no long distance flights. I suggested a battery only
electrical system and charging the battery between flights. But, he insists on
a system with charging capability. So, the only option is to install an
external wind generator for recharging.
Do I need a voltage regulator for this setup?
As mentioned, the airplane will be flown only occasionally and only
locally. It will be in a flying museum in Chile. We will install a charging
point for the battery so it can be maintained to full charge between flights.
I am considering the RG-35 battery only because it was used in a previous
337-approved PT-22 installation so reapproval will be much easier by using
the same battery.
>From my experience, a single PC-680 battery will just barely turn over my
IO-390. I have two in the plane and have to connect both to get good
rotation of the engine.
The PT-22 has a radial (not sure yet which one) and I'm not sure that the
PC-680 will have enough juice to spin it well.
Since we are installing a starter on the engine, we can afford some weight
in the aft fuselage (behind seat) for the battery weight.
I'm planning to use #2 wire from the battery forward.
The power demands from the Becker radio and transponder are minimal. Your
numbers are for the VHF radio.
Standby" reception mode 70 mA
Reception mode 500 mA
Transmission mode 2.5 A
The transponder requires only
Standby - 0.3A
Transmit - 1.1A
So, the inflight demand on the battery will be zero when the wind generator
is producing 5A.
I agree that the RG-35AXC is a monster. It is very heavy which translates
into extra weight for the stronger battery mount required. What do you
think of using an Aerovoltz lithium battery? It has about 550CCA and shelf
life is excellent (10% loss over one year). Otherwise, I will lean toward
the PC-680 - or maybe a pair of them.
The main concern overall for this installation is that the cranking power
must be sufficient to start the engine. All other demands on the system
are achievable.
More thoughts?
Stan Sutterfield
In a message dated 8/23/2012 3:01:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes:
I am adding an electrical system to a PT-22 per a
customer's request. It will consist of an
overhauled Eclipse Y-150 starter, a RG battery,
starter switch and contactor, a switched bus to
power a Becker radio and transponder, a wind
driven generator, and associated wiring.
Does anyone have experience with adding electrical to a PT-22?
Any gotchas?
I can't find any generator or alternator that is
approved for the PT engine, that's the reason for
the wind generator. It will only produce about 5
amps, so it will barely power the transponder and
slowly recharge the battery and allow occasional radio transmission.
Since I'm doing a form 337 for the change, I
should be able to use any battery. So, we're
considering a PC-680 or a lithium ion battery
such as the Aerovoltz. Otherwise, we'll us a RG-35AXC.
What are your design goals for the installation and
how do you envision it will be used operationally?
Will this airplane be used for cross-country flight?
Is it parked in a location serviced by AC mains power?
Keep in mind that cranking an engine from the
typical battery takes only 5% or so of that
battery's capacity. Transponders take typically
2 amps to operate when generating lots of replies.
If I recall correctly, the Becker was designed
for battery only ops in gliders. It's power
demans are:
Standby" reception mode =A3 70 mA
Reception mode =A3 500 mA
Transmission mode =A3 2.5 A
Energy demands for this instance are trivial.
Further, it has a low voltage warning built
in set to trigger at 10.5 volts.
http://tinyurl.com/9upvqxg
An RG-35 is a beast of a battery . . . 30+
pounds as I recall. B&C did some cranking tests
on the SMALLER cousin to the PC-680 and found
that it would do a 10-blade crank of a high
compression engine (aerobatic aircraft), 5
times in a row (with about a minute cool down
between events). The PC-680 should do better
yet.
How about NO generator, a PC-680 as the only
battery and a Battery Minder plugged in while
the airplane is parked? Li-FePOH batteries
are low risk because you're not going to charge
it at a high rate while airborne . . . and it
can be recharged at a benign rate while hangared.
But take care also that you do not heavily discharge
it between flights as they're more sensitive to
deep cycle damage than their SVLA cousins.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re:Adding an electrical system
>
>More thoughts?
Sounds like you have a plan. 5A applied to
an RG35 probably doesn't represent much of
an OV risk. But it would be easy to add
crowbar protection right on the b-lead
breaker.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2012
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Disconnect needed
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Bob
Thx. for the info.
Ron P.
> Here's both all solid state and a relay version
> of what I think you asked for. I'd go with the
> MosFet version. FETs are quite rugged these days.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/9lc72qs
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OT: analog VOM worth battery cost.
At 01:37 AM 8/24/2012, you wrote:
Greetings,
I have a Triplet 630-NA VOM. I'm wondering if it is a good enough
quality VOM to justify putting $15 worth of batteries into.
Opinions please.
Some thoughts. I keep analog meters around (including the 630
I purchased in 1961 upon being hired into Boeing) because
they often yield dynamic data that is difficult or impossible
to get from a digital device.
Consider replacing only the 1.5v battery which will
get the X1 ohms function working . . . which is the
most useful in working electrical systems issues
anyway.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Resuscitating the Tripplet 630
After my reply on this thread, I was recalling some
features of the 630 buried pretty deeply in the grey-matter.
I dug mine out and pulled the case off.
Replacing JUST the one battery is still a good idea but
the cell is 'captured' into position in the battery box
by the case. Proper retention of the battery depends on
the HV battery being installed.
Looking at this configuration sparked an idea that was
easy to implement and worked around the fixture problem.
I cut a couple 3/4" pieces of hobby shop brass with a 9/16" i.d. 19/32" o.d.
Emacs!
Tape one piece to the (-) end of AA cell so that you have
a recess about 1/8" deep. Tape the other piece to the (+)
end looking for a recess about 1/2" deep. Make a conductive
"plug" to drop into the (+) cavity. Here's a quick-n-dirty
pair of nuts on a 10-32 screw and trimmed flush with a
Dremel.
Emacs!
Drop the "plug" into the (+) end and place it between
the cell contacts of the 630
Emacs!
This configuration captures the cell between the contacts even
though the hv battery is not present.
Also, I'm pleased to report that the single AA cell excites ALL
resistance ranges EXCEPT the highest range. A little time
on the lathe could produce adapters fitted more closely
to the dimensions of the AA cell and the mating contacts
on the 630. A pleasant distraction . . .
Another approach would be to make a 'plug' from plastic or
wood that emulates the shape of the 30v battery. You'd want
holes in both ends to clear the 630's battery contacts. Then
use the standard C-cell and exploit the original design
goals for cell retention.
Depending on how determined you are to get it all up and
running, there is sufficient volume inside to house three 9v
alkaline batteries. One where the 30v goes, two on each end
of the battery box over the fuses. A bit of wire, some tack
soldering and double-sided tape for battery retention
could give you a 27v 'work-around' that should bring the
x100K range back to life as well.
Bit lots sells an alkaline 9v for $2 or less.
Bottom line is that there may still be more years of useful
utility left in your venerable ol' workhorse. Working the
flight line at Boeing, the Simpson 260 was all the tool
cribs stocked. We fixed a lot of airplanes with this genere'
of measurement tools.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Resuscitating the Tripplet 630
Date: Aug 24, 2012
When my dad passed away last year I inherited a lot of old electrical
equipment, including a 630.
Finding that meter while sorting thru his stuff brought back lots of
memories of futzing w/ batteries, lamps & alligator clips as a kid - funny
what you remember.
Using 3 9-volters to replace the big battery is a great idea - glad to hear
that 27 volts is enough.
Lots of people, especially younger ones, would just throw-away something
like this but I find it strangely satisfying to keep an older, good-quality
instrument in service, even if it requires a little engineering. Is that
due to age or wisdom???
Pardon the philosophical observations,
-Jeff
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:02
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Resuscitating the Tripplet 630
After my reply on this thread, I was recalling some
features of the 630 buried pretty deeply in the grey-matter.
I dug mine out and pulled the case off.
Replacing JUST the one battery is still a good idea but
the cell is 'captured' into position in the battery box
by the case. Proper retention of the battery depends on
the HV battery being installed.
Looking at this configuration sparked an idea that was
easy to implement and worked around the fixture problem.
I cut a couple 3/4" pieces of hobby shop brass with a 9/16" i.d. 19/32" o.d.
Emacs!
Tape one piece to the (-) end of AA cell so that you have
a recess about 1/8" deep. Tape the other piece to the (+)
end looking for a recess about 1/2" deep. Make a conductive
"plug" to drop into the (+) cavity. Here's a quick-n-dirty
pair of nuts on a 10-32 screw and trimmed flush with a
Dremel.
Emacs!
Drop the "plug" into the (+) end and place it between
the cell contacts of the 630
Emacs!
This configuration captures the cell between the contacts even
though the hv battery is not present.
Also, I'm pleased to report that the single AA cell excites ALL
resistance ranges EXCEPT the highest range. A little time
on the lathe could produce adapters fitted more closely
to the dimensions of the AA cell and the mating contacts
on the 630. A pleasant distraction . . .
Another approach would be to make a 'plug' from plastic or
wood that emulates the shape of the 30v battery. You'd want
holes in both ends to clear the 630's battery contacts. Then
use the standard C-cell and exploit the original design
goals for cell retention.
Depending on how determined you are to get it all up and
running, there is sufficient volume inside to house three 9v
alkaline batteries. One where the 30v goes, two on each end
of the battery box over the fuses. A bit of wire, some tack
soldering and double-sided tape for battery retention
could give you a 27v 'work-around' that should bring the
x100K range back to life as well.
Bit lots sells an alkaline 9v for $2 or less.
Bottom line is that there may still be more years of useful
utility left in your venerable ol' workhorse. Working the
flight line at Boeing, the Simpson 260 was all the tool
cribs stocked. We fixed a lot of airplanes with this genere'
of measurement tools.
Bob . . .
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2012
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Resuscitating the Tripplet 630
I'm gonna have to side with Eric on this one. =C2-I think you guys are in
a nostalgia induced somnambulism that results in tons of worthless cr*p la
ying around the house. By worthless, I mean things that you will never use
again. You'll just walk by it and admire it occasionally as you worm your w
ay through the make shift aisles to the kitchen for yet another Ruben sandw
ich. Some people call it hoarding.
The Tripplet 630 was a fine instrument in its day, but it was made for rela
tively high voltages and empty state logic, not the low voltages and curren
ts in today's solid state devices. Yes, you can use it to trace wires and f
ind some resistance problems, but as a general all around instrument, you m
ight as well take it with you when you die and donate it to Nicolas Tesla w
hen he greets you at the Purrly Gates. I'd much rather have my trusty Fluke
77 or 87 to troubleshoot just about anything, including my mistress going
haywire when she finds out I'm married. I have both instruments, one for th
e hangar and one for the house. I'm even thinking about getting another one
for my bar hopping trips so I can check out women's resistances as I appro
ach them with my teleprompter and well rehearsed lines. Yes, it's that vers
atile!
As Eric Jonez said, the 77 is a darn good instrument. =C2-I've had mine f
or over two decades now, and it is indeed a trusty instrument with a nice y
ellow protective cover. When I die, I'm gonna take it with me so I can have
William Shockley meet me at the Purrly Gates and tell me I made a fine cho
ice.
Henador Titzoff
--- On Fri, 8/24/12, Jeff Luckey wrote:
From: Jeff Luckey <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Resuscitating the Tripplet 630
Date: Friday, August 24, 2012, 2:30 PM
=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AWhen my dad passed
away last year I=0Ainherited a lot of old electrical equipment, including
a 630.=C2- =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AFinding that meter while sorting thru his
=0Astuff brought back lots of memories of futzing w/ batteries, lamps & all
igator=0Aclips as a kid =93 funny what you remember =0A=0A
=C2- =0A=0AUsing 3 9-volters to replace the big=0Abattery is a great idea
=93 glad to hear that 27 volts is enough. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0ALots o
f people, especially younger ones,=0Awould just throw-away something like t
his but I find it strangely satisfying to=0Akeep an older, good-quality ins
trument in service, even if it requires a little=0Aengineering.=C2- Is th
at due to age or wisdom??? =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0APardon the philosophical obs
ervations, =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A-Jeff =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0AFrom:=0Aowner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-ae
roelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]=0AOn Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls,=0A
III
=0ASent: Friday, August 24, 2012=0A11:02
=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List:=0AResuscitating the Tripplet 630 =0A=0A=0A
=0A =C2- =0A=0AAfter my reply on this thread, I was recalling some
=0Afeatures of the 630 buried pretty deeply in the grey-matter.
=0AI dug mine out and pulled the case off.
=0A
=0AReplacing JUST the one battery is still a good idea but
=0Athe cell is 'captured' into position in the battery box
=0Aby the case. Proper retention of the battery depends on
=0Athe HV battery being installed.
=0A
=0ALooking at this configuration sparked an idea that was
=0Aeasy to implement and worked around the fixture problem.
=0A
=0AI cut a couple 3/4" pieces of hobby shop brass with a 9/16" i.d.=0A19/32
" o.d.
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A=C2- Tape one piece to the (-) end of AA cell so that you have
=0A=C2- a recess about 1/8" deep. Tape the other piece to the (+)
=0A=C2- end looking for a recess about 1/2" deep. Make a conductive
=0A=C2- "plug" to drop into the (+) cavity. Here's a quick-n-dirty
=0A=C2- pair of nuts on a 10-32 screw and trimmed flush with a
=0A=C2- Dremel.
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0ADrop the "plug" into the (+) end and place it between
=0Athe cell contacts of the 630
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0AThis configuration captures the cell between the contacts even
=0Athough the hv battery is not present.
=0A
=0AAlso, I'm pleased to report that the single AA cell excites ALL
=0Aresistance ranges EXCEPT the highest range. A little time
=0Aon the lathe could produce adapters fitted more closely
=0Ato the dimensions of the AA cell and the mating contacts
=0Aon the 630. A pleasant distraction . . .
=0A
=0AAnother approach would be to make a 'plug' from plastic or
=0Awood that emulates the shape of the 30v battery. You'd want
=0Aholes in both ends to clear the 630's battery contacts. Then
=0Ause the standard C-cell and exploit the original design
=0Agoals for cell retention.
=0A
=0ADepending on how determined you are to get it all up and
=0Arunning, there is sufficient volume inside to house three 9v
=0Aalkaline batteries. One where the 30v goes, two on each end
=0Aof the battery box over the fuses. A bit of wire, some tack
=0Asoldering and double-sided tape for battery retention
=0Acould give you a 27v 'work-around' that should bring the
=0Ax100K range back to life as well.
=0A
=0ABit lots sells an alkaline 9v for $2 or less.
=0A
=0ABottom line is that there may still be more years of useful
=0Autility left in your venerable ol' workhorse. Working the
=0Aflight line at Boeing, the Simpson 260 was all the tool
=0Acribs stocked. We fixed a lot of airplanes with this genere'
=0Aof measurement tools.
=0A
=0A
=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=C2-=0ABob . . . =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ANo virus found in thi
s message.
=0AChecked by AVG - www.avg.com
=0A08/24/12=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Resuscitating the Tripplet 630
At 05:48 AM 8/25/2012, you wrote:
>I'm gonna have to side with Eric on this one. I think you guys are
>in a nostalgia induced somnambulism that results in tons of
>worthless cr*p laying around the house. By worthless, I mean things
>that you will never use again. You'll just walk by it and admire it
>occasionally as you worm your way through the make shift aisles to
>the kitchen for yet another Ruben sandwich. Some people call it hoarding.
What's this about taking sides? If
anything, this thread has been a cognizant
observation of what these tools represent
in utility, history, and teaching value.
I don't think anyone has suggested that the
260/630 genre' of tools is a substitute for
modern digital instruments. At the same time,
there are things an analog instrument will do
for the observer that a digital instrument cannot.
I still have a lot of vacuum tube era parts
and tools. It is my plan to use them as teaching
tools for my grandchildren . . . assuming they're
interested. Building a vacuum tube receiver or
transmitter requires some skill development in
schematic reading, stripping wire, soldering,
chassis layout, punching/drilling holes, winding
coils (after we calculate how big they should
be), measuring voltages and currents (yes, the
630 will do nicely).
Something a vacuum tube offers that a transistor
can never offer is that you can take it apart.
Hold, feel and see the pieces. Imagine the
boiling of electrons off a hot cathode for
launching toward plate. This, like the experiments
of Hertz, Helmholtz, Faraday, Volta, Ampere, et. als.
is hands-on, see-it, feel-it physics.
At the other end of the spectrum, programming a
micro-controller is a purely intellectual exercise
that has nothing to do with electronics . . . but
without it, you cannot exploit the value that
electronics can deliver. They are joined at the
hip. The elegant solutions are achieve a working
understanding of both.
When I was in high school, the school board
was participating in a dual-track science education
experiment. One group of students took chemistry
and physics in the contemporary setting while
another group studied using more 'modern aids'
like films and 'less sophisticated' and hardware-
store/lumber-yard tools and materials. This was
carried out in two Wichita high schools. The
question to be answered was, "Can science be
adequately taught in less endowed schools using
more rudimentary tools and processes?"
Don't know how powers-that-be viewed the
outcome of the studies for teaching methods.
I took the experimental course in chemistry.
I found out from my chemistry teacher years
later that I made the highest score in Wichita
going in, and the highest score coming out.
I can personally attest to the fact that the
shiny tools and latest processes do not drive
the outcome of a teaching process so strongly
as modern 'educators' would have us believe.
I think the point of this discussion is to
explore the physics and utility of any tool
for understanding and without prejudice for
it's less than modern shortcomings. Would
you similarly denounce a builder's choice to
build a replica J-3 as opposed to a Sonex?
If this discussion was about applying modern
materials and systems to a 1940's restoration,
would you decry the effort as whipping a
dead horse? As one of my heros, Richard Feynman
suggested in the tile of his book, there is
a lot of pleasure to be gained from finding
things out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgaw9qe7DEE&feature=related
Those who do not find pleasure in such endeavors
are certainly free to focus their efforts elsewhere
but let us refrain from obstructing the pleasure
of others.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Resuscitating the Tripplet 630
At 04:38 PM 8/24/2012, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>I replied to your 1st post before I read the 2nd. I can get 10
>Panasonic 2450 lithium cells for $12 and I'll machine a little case
>to make them fit in the 30V position. I think that should take care of it.
Cool. Send me some pix.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Resuscitating the Tripplet 630
Date: Aug 25, 2012
While the modern digital instruments can be inexpensive and exceedingly
accurate, sometimes that accuracy can be an issue especially when
dealing
with changing values. Trying to visualize constantly changing numbers or
even read their value if the changes are rapid can be very frustrating,
sometimes impossible. The old analogue instruments, while they may not
read
to the ultimate resolution, average changing values very well and in
that
dynamic situation, where the digital is useless, can give a nice,
relatively
stable, easy to see, reading. If what you=92re looking for is a steadily
falling or rising value, then the analogue will show a nice steady
needle
movement (or an erratic one to show a not-so-steady change) whereas the
rapidly changing numbers on a digital display don=92t help. You=92ll
have almost
no idea of what is going on. (Measuring the resistance of a
potentiometer
with both a digital and an analogue meter while smoothly turning the
shaft
from one extreme to the other to determine if there are any dead spots
or if
the pot is a linear or logarithmic taper for instance will quickly show
the
superiority of the analogue meter. If you want to know the precise value
of
a fixed resistor then the digital will be superior)
In short both types are useful. Sometimes the digital is better,
sometimes
the analogue beats it by a mile. As in most things - - =93It depends=94
Only my .02=A2 opinion
Bob McC
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2012
Subject: Need a set of leads for Tripplet 310-C
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Group
I rescued a Triplett 310-C from certain death about two weeks ago.
It's missing the leads for them, anything I have doesn't fit.
Any ideas about getting how to get hold of a set?
This unit takes two 1.5 volt batteries, not sure what size.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Need a set of leads for Tripplet 310-C
At 10:24 AM 8/25/2012, you wrote:
Hi Group
I rescued a Triplett 310-C from certain death about two weeks ago.
It's missing the leads for them, anything I have doesn't fit.
I've not run across that model before. Here's a link to
the list manuals for Tripplet legacy products:
http://tinyurl.com/8tfzxt6
The battery call-outs are:
[]
Wow! The 1.5 volt cell is an "N" which are still
very much available . . .
http://tinyurl.com/9ozgmtj
The 15v is too . . .
http://tinyurl.com/8okd49r
But a bit more expensive. Again, replacing the
n-cell only might yield a very serviceable
device.
I think those test lead jacks accept the miniature
banana plugs.
Here's a link to a surplus store in Orlando
that has some $high$ Pomona patch cords for cheap with
what I believe is the right sized plug. A couple
of these modified on one end with alligator
clips would get you some leads. You could cover
one of the clips with a red boot and suitably
mark the other end to encourage insertion to the
(+) jack.
When you get it running, show a kid what it does
for you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Resuscitating the Tripplet 630
At 11:48 AM 8/25/2012, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>There was a Simpson 260 in my dad=92s stuff as
>well ' in the same kind of case as you
>describe. I think it will get a place of honor on the test bench, too.
>
>Just for grins I looked on ebay: they go for
>$20-$200. Does anyone remember what they sold for new?
Yup, at least in 1961 both the Tripplet 630 and Simpson 260 sold for
about $70. That's about $500 in today's dollars. It was a week's
wages for me at my first job in aviation at Boeing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Mooney Alternator woes
Date: Aug 26, 2012
Thanks - I joined both lists and have posted my question there.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mooney Alternator woes
-->
There are a couple Mooney email lists that have experts that likely can
help, including factory tech support. The S model isn't all that old, so
there should be good info available.
Mapalist mailing list..which requires membership in MAPA.
Mapalist(at)lists.mooneypilots.com
http://lists.mooneypilots.com/listinfo.cgi/mapalist-mooneypilots.com
<http://lists.mooneypilots.com/listinfo.cgi/mapalist-mooneypilots.com>
Mooney Tech list which is open to all:
http://lists.aviating.com/mailman/listinfo/mooney-tech,
mailto:mooney-tech-request(at)aviating.com?subject=subscribe
On 8/16/2012 6:44 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> At 08:27 AM 8/16/2012, you wrote:
>
>
> My hangar neighbor is trying to figure out why his alternator
> occasionally drops off line - requiring a weird reset sequence. He has
> to shut off the battery and field, then go to a low power setting and
> bring it back up again. Something about resetting an overvoltage
> protection device.
>
> It is an M20S with Cont 550 and gear driven alternator. The first
> regulator lasted only a couple of years before giving up the ghost and
> the replacement was a special from Mooney.
>
> My first line of thinking is to locate the regulator and test it.
> Nobody knows where it is hiding.
> (I'm in DC - the plane is in DE...I'll be home next weekend to help
> more.)
>
> Meanwhile, does anyone have an electronic copy of the Light Plane
> Maintenance article on troubleshooting alternators...and the Mooney
> M20S maintenance manual?
>
> If we can find it, I'm hoping that we can determine if the regulator
> is the culprit.
>
> If it takes a southern Slobovian switch-dance to
> bring it back on line, it's almost certain to be
> something electronic. Is the successful reset sequence
> something different than what is called for in the
> POH as a response to an OV trip?
>
> I've not had any contact with Mooney in 25+ years. I
> bid an alternator controller for them while at
> Electro-Mech . . . we didn't get the job. I think
> Electrodelta out of White Oak, TX got it. It would
> have been a Mooney-unique product. ED has changed
> hands and/or moved several times over the years.
> The guy who ran ED is still hanging around the
> Wichita area. He MIGHT be a resource for help
> wrestling with your problem.
>
> The LPM article is not likely to be much help. It
> will be VERY generic. If it were my airplane, I'd
> jeep another regulator in place of the original to
> see if the problem goes away. Given the rarity of
> that regulator, I'd probably go for a one-time
> STC to install something more contemporary and
> available. There's nothing magic about alternator
> controllers . . . only the institutionalized and
> market driven B.S. in which they reside.
>
> B&C regulators are used elsewhere on current production
> airplanes . . . the FAA might look kindly upon
> substitution of B&C product for what's already
> installed.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2012
Subject: anderoid tablets
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
hi all,
anyone had experience with the garmin app out now for anderoid o.s. ?
bob noffs
hope it is good as i just ordered the google nexus 7 especially to use
that app.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2012
From: jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: anderoid tablets
Don't see the relevance of the question now since you already ordered
it before asking.
? ? ?
At 07:39 PM 8/26/2012, you wrote:
>hi all,
> anyone had experience with the garmin app out now for anderoid o.s. ?
> bob noffs
>
> hope it is good as i just ordered the google nexus 7 especially
> to use that app.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: anderoid tablets
Date: Aug 27, 2012
> Don't see the relevance of the question now since you already ordered
> it before asking.
> ? ? ?
The relevence, INMHO, is that there are at least a couple of us on
the list that may be interested in the Garmin App, and may or may
not own an Anderoid. Any info on this might be helpful.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Meter for reading Millivolts
Date: Aug 27, 2012
I think I have a bad EGT thermocouple and I have been trying to test it.
One of my EGTs seems ok and the other is really low in temperature reading.
When I test the two thermocouples I get either no readings or really high
readings that go down when I heat the thermocouple.
I bought a new VOM tester that had a temp probe as part of it to try and
test the probes. But even with this tester I get nonsense readings.
For example, if I plug the probe that came with the meter into the temp
slot, it gives believable temp readings, but if I unplug the probe and try
to read the output of the probe using the test leads and the 200MV scale, I
get a reading of zero.
I bought a new probe for the engine, but when I test either the new probe or
the old (bad?) one with the test leads and the 200MV scale, I get the same
results as above.
I need to buy a meter that will read reliably on the MV scale. What meter
do you suggest and where can I get one that is not too expensive?
Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2012
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: Meter for reading Millivolts
Bill...
I use this one to test my EGT and CHT thermocouples...it also has
a light meter, and a temp sensor built in...I replaced my old B&K
(that I had for years before it finally bit the dust) with it,
and it's every bit as good...
It also measures sound levels...but I haven't really tested that
function yet.
www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html
They currently have a 20% off coupon here as well that's good
online or in the store:
http://tinyurl.com/9uf4wfw
Harley
-----------------------------------------------------------------
On 8/27/2012 10:14 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:
>
> I think I have a bad EGT thermocouple and I have been trying to test it.
> One of my EGTs seems ok and the other is really low in temperature reading.
> When I test the two thermocouples I get either no readings or really high
> readings that go down when I heat the thermocouple.
>
> I bought a new VOM tester that had a temp probe as part of it to try and
> test the probes. But even with this tester I get nonsense readings.
> For example, if I plug the probe that came with the meter into the temp
> slot, it gives believable temp readings, but if I unplug the probe and try
> to read the output of the probe using the test leads and the 200MV scale, I
> get a reading of zero.
>
> I bought a new probe for the engine, but when I test either the new probe or
> the old (bad?) one with the test leads and the 200MV scale, I get the same
> results as above.
>
> I need to buy a meter that will read reliably on the MV scale. What meter
> do you suggest and where can I get one that is not too expensive?
>
> Bill B
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Meter for reading Millivolts
Date: Aug 27, 2012
Harley,
I didn't see that one in the store. They had this one
http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-digital-multimeter-37772.html
This is the one I bought and with it I get the nonsense readings that I
describe in my previous msg. I wonder is there a trick to the testing to
get accurate readings?
Bill
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Meter for reading Millivolts
Bill...
I use this one to test my EGT and CHT thermocouples...it also has a light
meter, and a temp sensor built in...I replaced my old B&K (that I had for
years before it finally bit the dust) with it, and it's every bit as good...
It also measures sound levels...but I haven't really tested that function
yet.
www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html
They currently have a 20% off coupon here as well that's good online or in
the store:
http://tinyurl.com/9uf4wfw
Harley
_____
On 8/27/2012 10:14 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:
I think I have a bad EGT thermocouple and I have been trying to test it.
One of my EGTs seems ok and the other is really low in temperature reading.
When I test the two thermocouples I get either no readings or really high
readings that go down when I heat the thermocouple.
I bought a new VOM tester that had a temp probe as part of it to try and
test the probes. But even with this tester I get nonsense readings.
For example, if I plug the probe that came with the meter into the temp
slot, it gives believable temp readings, but if I unplug the probe and try
to read the output of the probe using the test leads and the 200MV scale, I
get a reading of zero.
I bought a new probe for the engine, but when I test either the new probe or
the old (bad?) one with the test leads and the 200MV scale, I get the same
results as above.
I need to buy a meter that will read reliably on the MV scale. What meter
do you suggest and where can I get one that is not too expensive?
Bill B
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2012
From: Harley <harley(at)agelesswings.com>
Subject: Re: Meter for reading Millivolts
I'm not familiar with that one, but looking at the picture, I see
an input for K thermocouples...if you plug your thermocouple into
those you should get an actual temperature reading (in
centigrade, it seems). Maybe you are having a problem when you
try to read them as millivolts using the probes on the meter
instead? Even the J thermocouples will work in the K
thermocouple input, just be a little bit off.
Harley
-----------------------------------------------------------------
On 8/27/2012 1:36 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote:
>
> Harley,
>
> I didn't see that one in the store. They had this one
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-digital-multimeter-37772.html
>
> This is the one I bought and with it I get the nonsense
> readings that I describe in my previous msg. I wonder is there
> a trick to the testing to get accurate readings?
>
> Bill
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Harley
> *Sent:* Monday, August 27, 2012 10:29 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Meter for reading Millivolts
>
> Bill...
>
> I use this one to test my EGT and CHT thermocouples...it also
> has a light meter, and a temp sensor built in...I replaced my
> old B&K (that I had for years before it finally bit the dust)
> with it, and it's every bit as good...
>
> It also measures sound levels...but I haven't really tested
> that function yet.
>
> www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html
> <http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html>
>
> They currently have a 20% off coupon here as well that's good
> online or in the store:
> http://tinyurl.com/9uf4wfw
>
> Harley
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 8/27/2012 10:14 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:
>
>>
>> I think I have a bad EGT thermocouple and I have been trying to test it.
>> One of my EGTs seems ok and the other is really low in temperature reading.
>> When I test the two thermocouples I get either no readings or really high
>> readings that go down when I heat the thermocouple.
>>
>> I bought a new VOM tester that had a temp probe as part of it to try and
>> test the probes. But even with this tester I get nonsense readings.
>> For example, if I plug the probe that came with the meter into the temp
>> slot, it gives believable temp readings, but if I unplug the probe and try
>> to read the output of the probe using the test leads and the 200MV scale, I
>> get a reading of zero.
>>
>> I bought a new probe for the engine, but when I test either the new probe or
>> the old (bad?) one with the test leads and the 200MV scale, I get the same
>> results as above.
>>
>> I need to buy a meter that will read reliably on the MV scale. What meter
>> do you suggest and where can I get one that is not too expensive?
>>
>> Bill B
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG -www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>>
>>
>
> * *
> * *
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List*
> **
> **
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
> * *
> *
>
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Date: 08/27/12
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2012
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: Meter for reading Millivolts
I just looked up the millivolt readings for a type K thermocouple
at room temperature (20 c). And the problem you may be having is
trying to read that with the 200 millivolt scale. It is only
about 0.8mv! As long as plugging into the thermocouple slot
gives you a reading near the proper temperature, the thermocouple
is working...I never tried to read them on a millivolt scale as
I've always had actual instruments around that could read them
and have the tables built in to convert to the proper
temperatures...like those two meters we've been talking about.
Harley
-----------------------------------------------------------------
.
On 8/27/2012 1:36 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote:
>
> Harley,
>
> I didn't see that one in the store. They had this one
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-digital-multimeter-37772.html
>
> This is the one I bought and with it I get the nonsense
> readings that I describe in my previous msg. I wonder is there
> a trick to the testing to get accurate readings?
>
> Bill
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Harley
> *Sent:* Monday, August 27, 2012 10:29 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Meter for reading Millivolts
>
> Bill...
>
> I use this one to test my EGT and CHT thermocouples...it also
> has a light meter, and a temp sensor built in...I replaced my
> old B&K (that I had for years before it finally bit the dust)
> with it, and it's every bit as good...
>
> It also measures sound levels...but I haven't really tested
> that function yet.
>
> www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html
> <http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html>
>
> They currently have a 20% off coupon here as well that's good
> online or in the store:
> http://tinyurl.com/9uf4wfw
>
> Harley
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 8/27/2012 10:14 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:
>
>>
>> I think I have a bad EGT thermocouple and I have been trying to test it.
>> One of my EGTs seems ok and the other is really low in temperature reading.
>> When I test the two thermocouples I get either no readings or really high
>> readings that go down when I heat the thermocouple.
>>
>> I bought a new VOM tester that had a temp probe as part of it to try and
>> test the probes. But even with this tester I get nonsense readings.
>> For example, if I plug the probe that came with the meter into the temp
>> slot, it gives believable temp readings, but if I unplug the probe and try
>> to read the output of the probe using the test leads and the 200MV scale, I
>> get a reading of zero.
>>
>> I bought a new probe for the engine, but when I test either the new probe or
>> the old (bad?) one with the test leads and the 200MV scale, I get the same
>> results as above.
>>
>> I need to buy a meter that will read reliably on the MV scale. What meter
>> do you suggest and where can I get one that is not too expensive?
>>
>> Bill B
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG -www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>>
>>
>
> * *
> * *
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List*
> **
> **
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
> * *
> *
>
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Date: 08/27/12
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Meter for reading Millivolts
Date: Aug 27, 2012
They read Zero with the probes and the thermocouples have ring terminals on
them so they will not fit into the sockets on the meter for the thermocouple
plug.
I need to be able to read them with the probes because I need to check the