AeroElectric-List Archive Browser

little background. A member of that canard list posted a Navman fuel flow meter for sale on the list, and a well respected member of that list condemned the use of that flow meter in aircraft because it uses a plastic housing in its flow transducer, and at least one pilot was killed when that housing failed, feeding large amounts of fuel to an inflight fire. ======================================================= First I want to thank Marc for his strong condemnation of the Navman Fuel Flow Meter. (I started to say "vociferous condemnation" but I am not sure I know what that means.) That enabled me to buy a used one very inexpensively. I bought it primarily for automotive and motorcycle fuel flow testing, and it may see limited aviation use in testing fuel flow to large model airplane engines. (Some model airplane engines use alcohol and nitro-methane fuels; do any of you know if the Navman sensor will be damaged by those kinds of fuels?) However, one of you got my attention by mentioning that the Navman electronics can be used with other manufacturer's transducers, so at least part of the Navman may eventually get into my LongEz. If it happens, this is a long way off, but I have a few questions related to that topic I would like to ask while this is all fresh in the collective canard-aviators consciousness: 1. Most flow transducers use small "turbines". Since all the fuel flows through the transducer, do these turbine sensors have a failure mode that can block the fuel flow, for example if the turbine seizes, or can enough fuel still get through for me to limp to an airport? 2. Which transducers would you recommend? Are there any metal housing turbine type automotive transducers that you consider acceptable? The one in my car works very well. 3. There is an extra calibration procedure in the Navman manual for use with their sensor (pour a know amount of fuel through the transducer, and tell the electronics what that was). I assume I would follow the same procedure to calibrate any other transducer I hook up to it. Is that correct, or is there anything else I would have to do? 4. What pins correspond to what function in the Navman connector? I obviously need that information to hook up the Navman electronics to someone else's transducer. I am sure I could figure that out with a volt meter and a scope too, but is there any other modification necessary? 5. Is there anything else I have missed? Thanks for your help. --Joel ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B-lead protection
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Aug 01, 2013
> Here's a 40A MIDI style stocked by Digikey > > http://tinyurl.com/mpudgxu (http://tinyurl.com/mpudgxu) > > and a holder like this > > [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20130731150249.020c51e0(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] > > To mount it can be found here . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/kcbyc79 (http://tinyurl.com/kcbyc79) > How do these compare with the ANLs that B&C sells? Other than being a LOT less money? :) Do they have a greater tolerance? Slower speed (of reaction)? Don't last in a harsh enviroment? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405771#405771 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B-lead protection
> >How do these compare with the ANLs that B&C sells? Other than being >a LOT less money? :) Here's the data sheet on MIDI fuses http://tinyurl.com/l985dtj Here's the data on ANL . . http://tinyurl.com/k7o3l3q >Do they have a greater tolerance? Slower speed (of reaction)? Don't >last in a harsh enviroment? The ANL has been around for about 80 years and is still used in new design. Premier was the last airplane we designed with a majority DC power system in it. The distribution panel contains a goodly number of the ANL style limiters. The MIDI's have roots in the automotive industries where we have witnessed a continuous evolution of designs. For example, cartridge glass fusses got replaced by ATC plastics which in turn have been superceded by the ATR micro fuses. All three generations perform to their manufacturer's specs and have been found suited to task in billions of applications. The ANL and MIDI are not drop-in replacements for each other as you can deduce from their performance curves. But the differences are insignificant to our task. The advantage of the more modern design is that they are made in relatively large quantities on automated machines for markets much larger than the markets which nurtured the ANL devices. Until recently (last 10 years or so) the modern replacements for the ANL were not as convenient to acquire. You could find the fuses as after market service parts but holders were more of an OEM item. But now that Digikey has partnered with Bussmann and Littlefuse to distribute them, procurement is much easier. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: . . . up from the ashes.
Speaking of legacy technologies, I see this item in the Wichita Eagle that Beech's future seems a bit brighter today. http://tinyurl.com/mbryz3m They recently divested themselves of jet products to concentrate on legacy core competencies. A bold move . . . but on a firm technological foundation. Now, if the people who are expected to ride on those airplanes have the means and reason to do so . . . I spent most of my time at Beech on targets and jets. My contractor's badge hasn't expired yet . . . I might have an opportunity now to get more up-close and personal with the machines that built the Beech success story. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2013
Subject: Re: . . . up from the ashes.
From: Bill <wtrooper(at)gmail.com>
Bob - I imagine a deserved sense of satisfaction on your part - Seeing some promise in this company in which you invested a fair amount of time. Bill SF bay area AEC Seminar, Livermore @1998? On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:44 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**> > > Speaking of legacy technologies, I see this item > in the Wichita Eagle that Beech's future seems > a bit brighter today. > > http://tinyurl.com/mbryz3m > > They recently divested themselves of jet products to > concentrate on legacy core competencies. A bold > move . . . but on a firm technological foundation. > > Now, if the people who are expected to ride on those > airplanes have the means and reason to do so . . . > > I spent most of my time at Beech on targets and > jets. My contractor's badge hasn't expired yet . . . > I might have an opportunity now to get more > up-close and personal with the machines that built > the Beech success story. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2013
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Heathrow 787 lithium event
Bob said:=0A=0A- "The difference between failures in the ship's=0A- - system batteries and the ELT battery is profound.=0A-- Root cause for the system batteries was internal=0A-- to the battery and was not par ticularly unique=0A-- to the lithium chemistry . . . all battery=0A- - technologies have suffered separator development=0A-- and quality control problems at one time or=0A-- another.=0A=0A-- The 'simpl e failure' that occurred within the=0A-- battery was elevated in conse quence by the chemistry=0A-- that really likes to burn."=0A=0A=0AWhile I agree with you, Bob, doesn't it sound logical to extensively focus on th is battery technology and make it fool-proof before use, since it has a ten dency to cause such drastic problems?- Look at the evolution of the tank. It started out as petrol (gasoline) machines during WWI and remained so un til Russia faced the Japanese at Nomonhan.- The Japanese had far less tan ks but were still deadly as they burned diesel, which of course doesn't ign ite and burn in the air as easily.- They progressed to turbines, which st ill burn diesel (Jet-A). The world militaries learned to go to a safer fuel , but now Boeing's gone to a more dangerous battery.- Works great until i t decides to catch fire and light up the sky.=0A=0AIn other words, I think it's too early to go to lithium technology in civil aviation unless someone is willing to pay the price of inevitable failures.- This someone is Blo eing.- They haven't done enough testing, in my opinion, and perhaps their design engineering, including their vendors, needs much more scroo-tinee. - I know some of you OBAMers are seething at the teeth to incorporate lit hium batteries in your dream machines.- I just hope you're design and qua lity controls are better than Bloeing's.=0A=0ANote: I do not work for Airbu s, but I did work for Boeing Aerospace for 6 years and loved it.=0A=0A=0AHe nador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matr onics.com =0ASent: Monday, July 29, 2013 11:33 AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectr ic-List: Heathrow 787 lithium event=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0A=0AA t 05:52 AM 7/29/2013, you wrote:=0ABob, I believe the FAA is requiring that all 787 ELTs be inspected as =0Aa sampling of a larger population in order to derive statistical =0Adata, then regroup and do what's in section Inter im Action:=0A=0A- It may well be . . . but it seems that a=0A- mandat ory service bulletin from Boeing would=0A- do the same thing.=0A=0AIt ju st seems odd that this particular model ELT decided to burn up =0Aon a Drea mLiner and so far, two of its worse problems involve lithium =0Abatteries. Maybe the DreamLiner has more vibration at specific =0Afrequencies than oth er planes, and the ELT is spec'ed =0Aincorrected?- All I know is it's eas ier to blame the little guy than =0Athe big guy, especially when it involve s big corporations and/or =0Agovernment. It won't be long before this airpl ane is called the BadDreamLiner.=0A=0A- The difference between failures in the ship's=0A- system batteries and the ELT battery is profound.=0A - Root cause for the system batteries was internal=0A- to the battery and was not particularly unique=0A- to the lithium chemistry . . . all battery=0A- technologies have suffered separator development=0A- and quality control problems at one time or=0A- another.=0A=0A- The 'simp le failure' that occurred within the=0A- battery was elevated in consequ ence by the chemistry=0A- that really likes to burn.=0A=0A- The failu re in the ELT seems to be a quality control=0A- issue with the routing o f wires outside the batteries=0A- during assembly. Again, the 'simple fa ilure' was=0A- elevated to $high$ miseries by the energetic failure=0A - mode of the lithium batteries . . . but in this=0A- case, the batte ries themselves were performing as=0A- designed and qualified onto the p roduct.=0A=0A- In the first case, we have a failure to meet design=0A- goals in a product with hazardous failure modes. In=0A- the second cas e, the failure seems to reside with=0A- first line supervision in manufa cturing and quality=0A- control of a mature product. The first case is =0A- not excusable but understandable. The second case=0A- (assuming present suppositions are proven true)=0A- boggles the mind.=0A=0A=0AYes, I'm glad I fly OBAM, but it's mostly because of the TSA and all =0Athe sec urity hassles we're subjected to. I don't mind being frisked =0Aby a good l ooking babe, but most of them are Fugly! I asked one if =0Athe TSA paid all the bills, and she said "no, I also work nights at a =0Amasochist masseuse parlor. Here's my business card."=0A=0A- Understand. And I hope my comm ents were not mis-interpreted=0A- by anyone to mean that my global view of hazard for=0A- the air transport industry was pessimistic. Those=0A - guys could loose an airplane a day and still be=0A- statistically s afer than personal automobile.=0A=0A- I am concerned that questions of s uitability to task,=0A- meeting system design goals and having the will =0A- and means to react quickly to serious problems=0A- is bring impe ded by an increasing load of no-value-=0A- added 'activity' dictated by bureaucratic organization=0A- and policy/procedures taking its toll on s kills/=0A- common-sense.=0A=0A- For the moment at least, we're largel y free of such=0A- impediments in the OBAM aviation world.=0A=0A=0A=0A = ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: . . . up from the ashes.
At 01:21 PM 8/1/2013, you wrote: >Bob - > >I imagine a deserved sense of satisfaction on your part - Seeing >some promise in this company in which you invested a fair amount of time. Yeah, it's sorta like watching some of the things your kids do after they leave home and wondering where you went wrong! But core values, no matter how obscured, can emerge under the right conditions. There were times when I would have thought my children's present achievements were completely out of reach . . . but after 20 years, mom and I couldn't be more pleased. Perhaps there's a spark of resurrection left from this company's legacies. [] Emacs! Just discovered that there was a Model 16 built out in the Liberal facility. It post dates the Model 17 by many years. Only one ever built . . . Olive Ann didn't like it and nixed the program. I'll have to see if any pictures of it still exist. Being a one-of experimental, it seems unlikely. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Heathrow 787 lithium event
> >While I agree with you, Bob, doesn't it sound logical to extensively >focus on this battery technology and make it fool-proof before use, >since it has a tendency to cause such drastic problems? It would be interesting to see the analysis of how all the Joules got loose in the ELT . . . If the ELT had been fitted with a NiCad, would the outcome have been different? If a short on internal wiring initiated the event, did some circuit protective device fail to do it's job . . . or was such a device included? Operating life of the ELT battery is something on the order of 120 hours. Hence discharge rate compared to capacity is quite low . . . seems like a simple PTC limiter would have made it impossible to goad the ELT battery into catastrophic self destruction. I'd love to see a schematic of this product along with a failure analysis of just how the event was triggered. Without a doubt, the lithium battery in an ELT offers a huge boost to system reliability. How many ELTs have failed to function because fretting corrosion in the alkaline cell array shut down a perfectly good battery? A hard wired, long shelf life, long service life battery is an elegant solution. I think it's a bit soon to pan this particular lithium product. The ship's system batteries are another matter. The rush to qualification by OEMs from Airbus/Boeing down to the LSA guys seems to have stoked a certification frenzy. I used to know folks at the Navy's Battery Labs in Crane, IN who were willing to tell me anything and everything they knew about battery performance and robustness. I would dearly love to know what, if any, tests have been conducted on these leading edge secondary batteries. If you think the folks on board a 787 are fussy about smoke in the cabin, just run the idea past a submariner! I'm hearing rumbles that separator fabrication technologies are almost but not quite ready for prime time. Seems that there are occasional discontinuities in the separator matrix that encourages exchange of 'bad stuff' between the plates of the cells. This is not unique to lithium products. Folks are looking at time dependent (300-500 hours!) screening techniques to spot cells with risky separators before shipping to reliability critical applications. Who knows, maybe 3M or Monsanto will come up with a new separator material that will make this all go away. It's quite certain now that few technologies in history have experienced so much 'start up' expense. Maybe the B-29 engine development program . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2013
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Heathrow 787 lithium event
Bob said:=0A=0A=0A- - "Maybe the B-29 engine development program . . " =0A=0A=0ABob, there are many examples of start up expensive programs, and t hey didn't exactly get put into mass production immediately.- Take the F- 35 program, for example.- I know the guy who ran it for several years. He was one of the best engineers I've ever met, but the program is way over b udget and behind schedule.- Trying to do too much too fast, just like the se lithium batteries.- I hope that separator technology is finally able t o tame lithium technology and make it very reliable.=0A=0ABTW, the F-35 pro gram manager is now working for Spirit Aero. Quite a tumble but no big deal as he's had a great career for decades. Maybe you'll run into him at the l ocal Walmart. :)=0A=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A_______________________ _________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com >=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 7 :29 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Heathrow 787 lithium event=0A =0A olls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0A=0A=0A>=0A>While I agree with you, Bob, doesn' t it sound logical to extensively =0A>focus on this battery technology and make it fool-proof before use, =0A>since it has a tendency to cause such dr astic problems?=0A=0A- - It would be interesting to see the analysis of how=0A- - all the Joules got loose in the ELT . . .=0A=0A- - If th e ELT had been fitted with a NiCad, would=0A- - the outcome have been d ifferent? If a short on=0A- - internal wiring initiated the event, did some=0A- - circuit protective device fail to do it's job . . .=0A- - or was such a device included?=0A=0A- - Operating life of the ELT b attery=0A- - is something on the order of 120 hours. Hence=0A- - di scharge rate compared to capacity is quite=0A- - low . . . seems like a simple PTC limiter would=0A- - have made it impossible to goad the ELT battery=0A- - into catastrophic self destruction.=0A=0A- - I'd lov e to see a schematic of this product=0A- - along with a failure analysi s of just how the=0A- - event was triggered.=0A=0A- - Without a dou bt, the lithium battery in an=0A- - ELT offers a huge boost to system r eliability.=0A- - How many ELTs have failed to function because=0A- - fretting corrosion in the alkaline cell=0A- - array shut down a per fectly good battery?=0A=0A- - A hard wired, long shelf life, long servi ce life=0A- - battery is an elegant solution. I think it's=0A- - a bit soon to pan this particular lithium=0A- - product.=0A=0A- - The ship's system batteries are another matter.=0A- - The rush to qualific ation by OEMs from Airbus/Boeing=0A- - down to the LSA guys seems to ha ve stoked=0A- - a certification frenzy.- I used to know folks=0A- - at the Navy's Battery Labs in Crane, IN who=0A- - were willing to t ell me anything and everything=0A- - they knew about battery performanc e and robustness.=0A- - I would dearly love to know what, if any, tests =0A- - have been conducted on these leading edge secondary=0A- - ba tteries.=0A=0A- - If you think the folks on board a 787 are fussy=0A- - about smoke in the cabin, just run the idea past=0A- - a submarine r!=0A=0A- - I'm hearing rumbles that separator fabrication=0A- - te chnologies are almost but not quite ready for=0A- - prime time. Seems t hat there are occasional=0A- - discontinuities in the separator matrix that=0A- - encourages exchange of 'bad stuff' between=0A- - the pla tes of the cells.=0A=0A- - This is not unique to lithium products. Folk s=0A- - are looking at time dependent (300-500 hours!)=0A- - screen ing techniques to spot cells with risky=0A- - separators before shippin g to reliability=0A- - critical applications.=0A=0A- - Who knows, m aybe 3M or Monsanto will come up=0A- - with a new separator material th at will make this=0A- - all go away. It's quite certain now that few=0A - - technologies in history have experienced so=0A- - much 'start u p' expense.=0A=0A- - Maybe the B-29 engine development program . . .=0A == ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <fconsult(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Zodiac 601 with Jabiru engine radio noise revisited.
(nuckollsr)
Date: Aug 01, 2013
Hi Bob and All. Thanks for all the help Bob, the Zodiac 601 was test flow today and the Microair radio is working great, no more whine and no noise! Putting in a forest of tabs got rid of all the crackling and popping in the receive mode and isolating the jacks and moving the regulator/rectifier to the positive side of the battery stopped the alternator whine. The owner is no longer badmouthing Microair. Thanks again Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Heathrow 787 lithium event
>Trying to do too much too fast, just like these lithium >batteries. I hope that separator technology is finally able to tame >lithium technology and make it very reliable. Finding the golden separator material would alleviate some reliability issues with the system batteries but it does not address the potential for lapses in quality control. The ELT battery probably didn't fail but was induced to runaway by external shorting . . . which was not held at bay by prudent system integration of the battery. Take a look at <http://www.linkedin.com/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl%2Ecom%2Fmrbr4ol&urlhash=Bqzo&_t=tracking_disc>http://tinyurl.com/mrbr4ol One of the tests for a cluster of 6, CR-2 batteries blew the lid off a 5-gallon container. The test report didn't hypothesize whether the overpressure was simply due to heating of internal airspace, out-gassing of the runaway cells, or both. If these cells out-gas vigorously, then crafting an enclosure that produces a comfortable FMEA may be completely impractical. This means that the designers have to embrace a combination of reliability study (batteries never spontaneously mis-behave) and ISO-9000 (errors of wiring never get out the door). Given human weakness for faith in assumption and pronouncements by higher authority, there's a risk potential that cannot be quantified. Honeywell may be discovering the effects of this condition as we speak. It's inarguable, the lithium technologies are energetic. I've oft likened lithium batteries on airplanes as similar to considering how to burn nitroglycerine in your engine. The weight and volume to energy ratios are amazing, miles per gallon profound . . . now if we can just figure out how to keep it from blowing up. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Zodiac 601 with Jabiru engine radio noise revisited
At 10:23 PM 8/1/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob and All. > Thanks for all the help Bob, the Zodiac 601 was test flow > today and the Microair radio is working great, no more whine and no > noise! Putting in a forest of tabs got rid of all the crackling > and popping in the receive mode and isolating the jacks and moving > the regulator/rectifier to the positive side of the battery stopped > the alternator whine. The owner is no longer badmouthing Microair. > Thanks again Great! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Zodiac 601 with Jabiru engine radio noise revisited
Date: Aug 02, 2013
Can you explain, "moving the >regulator/rectifier to the positive side of the battery stopped the >alternator whine." a little better? I have a very slight whine in my headset when I turn the alternator on. It is low enough that I can hear it when I turn the alternator on, but not loud enough that I can hear it during flight. It hasn't bothered me, but if it is a simple fix, why not? B2 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 11:18 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Zodiac 601 with Jabiru engine radio noise revisited At 10:23 PM 8/1/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob and All. > Thanks for all the help Bob, the Zodiac 601 was test flow > today and the Microair radio is working great, no more whine and no > noise! Putting in a forest of tabs got rid of all the crackling > and popping in the receive mode and isolating the jacks and moving > the regulator/rectifier to the positive side of the battery stopped > the alternator whine. The owner is no longer badmouthing Microair. > Thanks again Great! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe
From: Kyrilian Dyer <kyrilian_av(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 02, 2013
John, The FAA publishes a range of Advisory Circulars that provide certification c ompliance guidance. These documents aren't technically regulatory but provi de an official interpretation of and sometimes an historical background to t he regulations. The following 'Systems and Equipment Guide for Certification of Part 23 Airp lanes and Airships' may provide some clarity for your question. http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2023-17C.pdf See page 282 - Kyrilian On Jul 31, 2013, at 4:45 PM, "John Loram" wrote: > Where would I find the FAA definition of =9Ccircuit essential to fli ght safety=9D? > > Thanks, -john- > (get=99n close to inspection) > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 8:43 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe > > > > Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices. > > > (b) A protective device for a circuit essential to flight safety may not b e > used to protect any other circuit. > Bob . . . > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe
At 08:05 PM 8/2/2013, you wrote: >John, > >The FAA publishes a range of Advisory Circulars that provide >certification compliance guidance. These documents aren't >technically regulatory but provide an official interpretation of and >sometimes an historical background to the regulations. > >The following 'Systems and Equipment Guide for Certification of Part >23 Airplanes and Airships' may provide some clarity for your question. ><http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2023-17C.pdf>http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2023-17C.pdf >See page 282 On page 282 we read: "After further review, FAA has concluded that the proposal should not be limited to airplanes that operate above 25,000 feet since emergencies resulting in the loss of normal electrical power are critical for all airplanes. Five minutes is considered adequate time to cope with such an emergency so that pilot can operate the airplane safely and assess the reason for the loss of normal electrical power." This seems to have been written by individuals who've never sought the elegant solution to a failure tolerant design, never flown an airplane and been faced with a "five minuted window' considered adequate for a pilot to put on his mechanic's hat and "assess the reason for loss of normal electrical power." Okay, so assume he DOES correctly assess the reason . . . now what? Whip out the toolbox and fix it? Besides, what's 25,000 feet got to do with anything? FMEA considers all anticipated operating conditions from the ground up. This is but one example of many pages of 'advisory floobydust' for which the authors of such documents are famous. After AC43-13 sat stagnant for dozens of years and was being revised some years back. The FAA 'invited' the EAA membership to . . . uh . . . help proofread the document. I wrote about 12 pages of critical review on the electrical section. Similar feedback was offered by others who were highly skilled in their disciplines. AC43-13 went back to the word processor and didn't get released for another year or so . . . for reasons beyond my understanding. If they'd given EAA the thing in Word, we would have had it cleaned up in a few days. The final publication was better but was still sprinkled with technical and practical inaccuracies. Don't know who sat on the various committees tasked with revising these documents but for sure, there were no Bill Lears, Kelly Johnsons, Duane Wallaces, Glen Rawdons, et. als. My advice to any reader suggests that understanding and mitigating the effects for loss of any piece of equipment is stone simple. Just imagine how you're going to get on the ground with that breaker pulled. If you don't like the outcome of the exercise, then fix it. It's not hard. Once it's fixed, then you don't need a 'five minute assessment window' . . . you flip to Plan-B and keep on truck'n and you don't mess with the breaker. Be wary of pronouncements from high places. Our tax dollars pay millions of salaries, benefits and retirement packages for individuals who add no merchantable value to the general welfare of domestic economy. The FAA is no exception to the condition. Here's another example . . . http://tinyurl.com/mn55arc Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe
> . . . AC43-13 went back to the word processor > and didn't get released for another year or so . . . > for reasons beyond my understanding. > > If they'd given EAA the thing in Word, we would > have had it cleaned up in a few days. The final > publication was better but was still sprinkled > with technical and practical inaccuracies. I've not located my input to the EAA critical review of the proposed revision to AC43-13 but I did find a copy of Earl Lawrence's letter to FAA outlining EAA recommendations http://tinyurl.com/c5rm43k . . . I believe that less than half of my findings were included in Earl's letter to FAA. The significance of this activity resides not in the details of errors noted but the shear numbers of error and degree by which the writers showed a disconnect with the technology and processes over which they claim expertise. These are all well meaning, gentle folks given a job. But until you've successfully baked brownies for millions of satisfied, repeat customers and do it profitably in a free-market economy, you are NOT qualified to write a specification for the production of brownies in the uber-regulated economy either. When somebody determines that a specification is needed, x-numbers of folks are given the task, any y-numbers of folks are charged with review and approval. From this policy/procedure driven management style there is risk that the work product will be vague, inapplicable or cannot be complied with by any competent baker of brownies or builders of airplanes. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe
From: Charles Plumery <barber_seville(at)msn.com>
Date: Aug 03, 2013
Hi Bob, I read parts of the specification you highlighted at the end of this communi cation to my spouse and she said " that is beyond absurd ". And we wonder wh y our society is faltering. Sent from my iPad, Chuck =9CA nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cann ot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, fo r he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst t hose within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alley s, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the h earts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknow n in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body pol itic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.=9D On Aug 2, 2013, at 10:35 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroele ctric.com> wrote: > At 08:05 PM 8/2/2013, you wrote: >> John, >> >> The FAA publishes a range of Advisory Circulars that provide certificatio n compliance guidance. These documents aren't technically regulatory but pr ovide an official interpretation of and sometimes an historical background t o the regulations. >> >> The following 'Systems and Equipment Guide for Certification of Part 23 A irplanes and Airships' may provide some clarity for your question. >> http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2023-17C.pd f >> See page 282 > > On page 282 we read: > > "After further review, FAA has concluded that the proposal should not be l imited to airplanes that > operate above 25,000 feet since emergencies resulting in the loss of norma l electrical power > are critical for all airplanes. Five minutes is considered adequate time t o cope with such an emergency so > that pilot can operate the airplane safely and assess the reason for the l oss of normal electrical power." > > This seems to have been written by individuals > who've never sought the elegant solution to a > failure tolerant design, never flown an airplane > and been faced with a "five minuted window' > considered adequate for a pilot to put on his > mechanic's hat and "assess the reason for loss of > normal electrical power." > > Okay, so assume he DOES correctly assess the > reason . . . now what? Whip out the toolbox and fix it? > Besides, what's 25,000 feet got to do with anything? > FMEA considers all anticipated operating conditions > from the ground up. > > This is but one example of many pages of 'advisory > floobydust' for which the authors of such documents > are famous. After AC43-13 sat stagnant for dozens of > years and was being revised some years back. The FAA > 'invited' the EAA membership to . . . uh . . . > help proofread the document. > > I wrote about 12 pages of critical review on the > electrical section. Similar feedback was offered > by others who were highly skilled in their > disciplines. AC43-13 went back to the word processor > and didn't get released for another year or so . . . > for reasons beyond my understanding. > > If they'd given EAA the thing in Word, we would > have had it cleaned up in a few days. The final > publication was better but was still sprinkled > with technical and practical inaccuracies. > > Don't know who sat on the various committees > tasked with revising these documents but for sure, > there were no Bill Lears, Kelly Johnsons, Duane > Wallaces, Glen Rawdons, et. als. > > My advice to any reader suggests that understanding > and mitigating the effects for loss of any piece > of equipment is stone simple. Just imagine how you're > going to get on the ground with that breaker > pulled. If you don't like the outcome of the > exercise, then fix it. It's not hard. Once it's > fixed, then you don't need a 'five minute assessment > window' . . . you flip to Plan-B and keep on > truck'n and you don't mess with the breaker. > > Be wary of pronouncements from high places. > Our tax dollars pay millions of salaries, > benefits and retirement packages for individuals > who add no merchantable value to the general > welfare of domestic economy. The FAA is no > exception to the condition. Here's another > example . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/mn55arc > > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe
> >Initially, I thought this was a parody of government specification. >When I realized that this is the real deal, I just found it >positively scary that there are people capable of such inane >gibberish. Even scarier that it has only been reviewed once in 26 >years and STILL (apparently) passed muster as having value. Absolutely. I have advanced this discussion at the risk of upsetting readers for the injection of politics and opinion from outside the framework of the AeroElectric-List. I humbly submit that no opinion or politics are involved here . . . just a simple acknowledgement of demonstrable fact. The goal is to reinforce the idea that our airplanes are collections of simple-ideas, recipes for success that yield very well to common sense supported by experience and lessons learned. I suggest further that notions of 'criticality' of electrical systems are hugely overblown. Solutions for dealing with failure of systems useful for comfortable termination of a flight are generally quite simple. If anyone is worried about any aspect of their projects configuration or performance, bring it up on the List. The sum total of talent and experience here far outweighs anything one will find in the constellation of 'official' documents. You'll get answers here that are understood as opposed to being dictated requirements. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: COM radio/intercom wiring problem...
At 11:17 PM 7/27/2013, you wrote: > >Yes, my ammeter is the Vans ammeter. > >My airplane is an RV-9A. My COM antenna is mounted on the bottom of >the airplane, approximately under where the left leg of the pilot is >when sitting in the airplane. The antenna is from Delta Pop >Aviation. The coax cable is RG400 from B&C. > >I have not checked the VSWR on the antenna. I see your book gives >some instructions on how to do that. > >The airplane is currently in my garage. Would that "focus" the RF >energy more than being out in the open? > >Thanks, >Michael- Okay, for a metal airplane your narrative offers a stronger suggestion of coax shield unhooked at one end or the other causing a really 'hot' cockpit. This can be detected with an SWR check. Open shields can exhibit strong variations in observed effects depending on operating frequency. Alternatively, you just might have a particularly twitchy ammeter. The one I hooked up on the bench could be made to produce any reading from pegged minus to pegged plus or any place in between by waving my hand held around it. Effects on readings could be observed with the hand-held 3 feet away. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: MIL SPEC spoof
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Aug 04, 2013
"Right. Sometimes that takes loads of words on paper to get things right. I am pretty certain that government requirements for toilet paper, cotton-balls and toothpicks would get a chuckle as well." Never said there should not be a clear and compelling purchasing specification. At the same time, boat-load purchasing packages that throw a lot of "good specs" at the potential supplier is an invitation for 'hanky-panky' or despotic slap-downs because no two reviewers of requirements will come to the same conclusion. It's like 70K pages of IRS code, gazillions of EPA code where no two enforcers of such code interpret their duties and the citizen's obligations the same way. "If there was a better way to do it, someone would have found it." There is. It's called the honorable exchange of value in a free-market where force and fraud is punished as a violation of liberty; poor workmanship is punished by loss of customer base and injury is punished as civil or criminal negligence. The notion that individuals predisposed to dishonorable behavior will cease such behaviors when threatened by state sanction is demonstrably false. Trillions of rules will not reduce dishonorable behavior. They WILL increase operating overhead for the honorable citizen. There are probably numerous capable suppliers of brownies who would decline to bid because the spec pollutes their business model, perhaps even alters a successful product and/or raises risk. A rise of legislative/administrative regulation in the hands of no-value-added, career enforcers has done nothing to improve on the quality of things. On the other hand, transfer of wealth from producers to plunderers has increased greatly. Another of several root causes for the greater-than-inflation rate pf rise in the cost of certified airplanes and health care. It's axiomatic and historically accurate to assert that OBAM aviation is at no lesser risk for the effects of those guys who offer, "I'm from the government, I'm here to help." It would be interesting to walk up to the FAA booth at OSH with a copy of AC23-17, pick an 'advisory assertion' about 'critical electrics' and inquire as to the significance in a LA-IVP project. Then make the assertion, "my airplane has no systems essential to continued flight that are not backed up; therefor I have no critical systems". and see what reaction you get. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405929#405929 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: soldering coax
From: "messydeer" <messydeer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 04, 2013
Hi! I'm installing a transponder in my Sonex. A couple years ago, I bought a 9-30-10 TED 90 degree coax adapter fitting, shown in the attached pic. What are the C ring and small cylindrical shaped items for? Any instructions for soldering this? Thanks, Dan -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405933#405933 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/9_30_10_ted_connector_115.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: soldering coax
Date: Aug 04, 2013
Try this from Bob's site. http://tinyurl.com/pqvb263 Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of messydeer > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 6:38 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: soldering coax > > > Hi! > > I'm installing a transponder in my Sonex. A couple years ago, I bought a 9-30-10 TED > 90 degree coax adapter fitting, shown in the attached pic. What are the C ring and > small cylindrical shaped items for? Any instructions for soldering this? > > Thanks, > Dan > > -------- > Dan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405933#405933 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/9_30_10_ted_connector_115.jpg > > > > > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: soldering coax
Date: Aug 04, 2013
The circlip and washer are to secure the connector into a panel using the groove around its "nose". The cylindrical sleeve is to adapt the connector to different diameters of coax. (link to instructions sent separately) Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of messydeer > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 6:38 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: soldering coax > > > Hi! > > I'm installing a transponder in my Sonex. A couple years ago, I bought a 9-30-10 TED > 90 degree coax adapter fitting, shown in the attached pic. What are the C ring and > small cylindrical shaped items for? Any instructions for soldering this? > > Thanks, > Dan > > -------- > Dan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405933#405933 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/9_30_10_ted_connector_115.jpg > > > > > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Where to get a RC heli?
From: "Angus" <abel9165(at)outlook.com>
Date: Aug 04, 2013
I like RC heli very much,share your thought with me. -------- http://www.rctophobby.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405942#405942 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: soldering coax
From: "messydeer" <messydeer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 04, 2013
Ah!! A picture is worth a thousand words. I'm guessing I won't need that barrel adapter, but I'll find out when I put things together. Dan -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405944#405944 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: roll my own transponder antenna?
From: "messydeer" <messydeer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 04, 2013
Hey :-) I rolled my own comm antenna a couple years ago. Antenna worked okay, but the location caused RFI, so I bought one and mounted it in a different location. This homemade com antenna could be cut down and used for my transponder antenna. But, how long do I cut it? Also heard about not being able to check swr in the xpdr freq range, so if I mess up, it could ruin my unit. ACS sells the antenna for $18, so if there's any doubt, I'd go that way. Thanks, Dan -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405946#405946 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: MIL SPEC spoof
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 05, 2013
> There is. It's called the honorable exchange of value in a free-market where force and fraud is punished as a violation of liberty; poor workmanship is punished by loss of customer base and injury is punished as civil or criminal negligence. I find this discussion very interesting... Aviation is really an interesting microcosm in which to observe the (non-)workings and meddling of government in stuff which should not concern it. I'm curious though as to how one would begin to write a spec which took into account "economics and the free market". If you want companies to bid, you need spec which is factual, you couldn't just say "brownies such as those commonly available in US supermarkets". ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
From: "messydeer" <messydeer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 05, 2013
Well, that cheap TED xpdr antenna is backordered. I came up with a few different lengths, googling. The diagram below shows it's ~2.5" from the ground plane (aluminum skin). Also read on the sequair site it would be 3.1", but that could be for a non-aluminum plane. http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Antennas/TpxAntProbs/TpxAntProbs.html Thanks, Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405965#405965 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ted_xpdr_diagram_157.gif ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
Date: Aug 05, 2013
Dan; I believe the 3.1" dimension on the Sequoia site is the overall length of the rod not the portion beyond the ground plane, and yes, this is for a wooden aeroplane with a relatively small ground plane. The article also speaks to a larger ground plane having some effect on the length. Bob McC. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of messydeer > Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 10:23 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: roll my own transponder antenna? > > > Well, that cheap TED xpdr antenna is backordered. I came up with a few different > lengths, googling. The diagram below shows it's ~2.5" from the ground plane > (aluminum skin). Also read on the sequair site it would be 3.1", but that could be for a > non-aluminum plane. > > http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Antennas/TpxAntProbs/TpxAntProbs.html > > Thanks, > Dan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405965#405965 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/ted_xpdr_diagram_157.gif > > > > > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2013
Subject: Battery question
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
My understanding is that it takes at least 13.8 volts to charge a 12 volt battery. Last Sunday I was using a Schumacher SC 8010A to charge a 12 volt 20 a.h. AGM battery. The charger started out at 12.5 volts and gradually climbed until after an hour the display was reading 15.5 volts. I disconnected the charger even though when I selected percent of charge it indicated 71 % charged. I used a Fluke VOM to check the battery and it indicated 15.4 volts. The battery was not even warm to the touch so I put the charger back on and continued charging until the battery was at 95% charge at which time the charger was still at 15.5 volts. The battery was barely warm to the touch. Again, with battery disconnected from the charger it tested at 15.4 volts. The battery seemed to work normally when we attempted to start the engine. Why would the charger charge at such a rate? Why would a 12V battery test at 15.4 volts? Rick Girard It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: MIL SPEC spoof
>I'm curious though as to how one would begin to write a spec which >took into account "economics and the free market". If you want >companies to bid, you need spec which is factual, you couldn't just >say "brownies such as those commonly available in US supermarkets". Not far wrong I think. In fact, a great many purchases of repackaged commercial off the shelf products have been made over the years by government. The purchase document would call for a quantity of your commercial product repackaged for needs unique to the military. Then ask for samples along with certification that these are the same brownies you can buy on isle 6 at Piggly Wiggly. There is no justification for the creation of a cadre' of micro-czars to craft a specification for a successfully marketed commodity whether it's a box of bolts or a bag of brownies. New development programs have a rich history in entrepreneurial exercise of off-the-shelf talents. Lockheed's Skunk Works is only one of many operations who's successes were achieved not because but in spite of micro-management in by bureaucratic specification. The freedom to operate in a state of "spontaneous order" which allowed talented folks to make day-by-day analysis of progress toward a design goal . . . and turn on a dime if necessary. http://tinyurl.com/l8yyg3m http://tinyurl.com/m3zn7wv I worked in a similar atmosphere at Beech where we designed and built supersonic and subsonic targets. Engineering was right above the factory floor. The division VP was a few steps from my desk. We had "the book" . . . a set of design goals from the customer . . . but how were got there was largely up to the closely cooperative broadly based collection of talents that made up our manufacturing, engineering and management staff. If somebody on the factory floor discovered a problem or had a idea for making a thing better. Consideration, decision and implementation of a useful change was not months or years away but mere days or weeks based on cooperation and agreement of the cognizant talents. I think our engineering meetings were modeled after Kelly Johnson's frequent "how goes it" meetings with his engineers and craftsmen. The point is that an honorable free-market exchange of value conducted in an atmosphere of spontaneous order existed all the way from the day the customer handed us 'the book' to the day the product was launched with goals that it prove/disprove/improve the value weapons systems used against them. The things discussed here on the List are similarly motivated and organized. We exploit the experience and talents of many individuals striving for the elegant solution to design goals. Each of you operates your own skunk works. The success of your efforts is bounded by how well you can sift through ideas and make changes, not by marching in lock-step to artificially generated and mandated specification by individuals who couldn't begin to do what it is that you do best. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery question
At 10:10 PM 8/5/2013, you wrote: My understanding is that it takes at least 13.8 volts to charge a 12 volt battery. Last Sunday I was using a Schumacher SC 8010A to charge a 12 volt 20 a.h. AGM battery. The charger started out at 12.5 volts and gradually climbed until after an hour the display was reading 15.5 volts. I disconnected the charger even though when I selected percent of charge it indicated 71 % charged. I used a Fluke VOM to check the battery and it indicated 15.4 volts. The battery was not even warm to the touch so I put the charger back on and continued charging until the battery was at 95% charge at which time the charger was still at 15.5 volts. The battery was barely warm to the touch. Again, with battery disconnected from the charger it tested at 15.4 volts. The battery seemed to work normally when we attempted to start the engine. An idealized automated battery charging profile looks like this: http://tinyurl.com/k6xr9mk As a practical matter, there are variations on the theme that will produce a family of recharge profiles http://tinyurl.com/m3o6mtu Why would the charger charge at such a rate? Probably because it was conforming to design goals Why would a 12V battery test at 15.4 volts? Because you measured the voltage too soon. The REAL voltage representing state of charge can be measured only after the battery has been disconnected the charger for several hours. If the battery is healthy, something on the order of 12.8 to 13.0 volts for a fully charged open circuit value. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: MIL SPEC spoof
From: "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Aug 06, 2013
> There is no > justification for the creation of a cadre' of > micro-czars to craft a specification for a successfully > marketed commodity whether it's a box of bolts or > a bag of brownies. Agreed Unless, of course, you are a bureaucrat trying to build your empire at hideous taxpayer expense. We dont have any of those, do we? -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406033#406033 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
At 09:23 AM 8/5/2013, you wrote: > >Well, that cheap TED xpdr antenna is backordered. I came up with a >few different lengths, googling. The diagram below shows it's ~2.5" >from the ground plane (aluminum skin). Also read on the sequair site >it would be 3.1", but that could be for a non-aluminum plane. > >http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Antennas/TpxAntProbs/TpxAntProbs.html There's a host of observed effects not all of which are significant. When you see an SWR plot like this . . . Emacs! all those peaks and valleys are artifacts of effects OTHER than the antenna itself. The plots achieved later Emacs! were MUCH smoother and had a a deep 'dip' toward 1:1 SWR at the frequency of interest. The article properly identifies the need for TIGHT electrical connection between the various components, preferably soldered. The 2.9" figure for overall length above the ground plane is fine. The article fails to mention that the 'resonant ground plane' has a radius equal to the height of the antenna or a diameter of 5.8". Alternatively you go with the non-resonant ground plane (like a belly skin) were exact dimensions are LARGE compared to 2.9" but operationally insignificant. The thing about every antenna needing to be tailored to an installation is bogus. Early transponders used a one-tube transmitter consisting of an pencil triode as an oscillator operating at a frequency controlled by a resonant cavity. Emacs! These transponders could be 'pulled' off-frequency by the effects of antennas. Modern, solid state transponders are not so afflicted. If you're building for a non-metalic airplane, 2.9" is the magic number for antenna length and radius of a ground plane. For a metal airplane, go for 2.9" antenna on an 'infinite' ground plane. In any case, metallic joints should be electrically 'tight' . . . solder is good. You can pick up one of these for about $20 shipping included. Emacs! http://tinyurl.com/lulfq5z You would mount this on a 2.9" radius disk for use in wood or plastic airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
Date: Aug 06, 2013
Would two units be a good idea, as a 'dipole' - one to ground (sleeve) lead ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 12:33 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: roll my own transponder antenna? At 09:23 AM 8/5/2013, you wrote: Well, that cheap TED xpdr antenna is backordered. I came up with a few different lengths, googling. The diagram below shows it's ~2.5" from the ground plane (aluminum skin). Also read on the sequair site it would be 3.1", but that could be for a non-aluminum plane. http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Antennas/TpxAntProbs/TpxAntProbs.html There's a host of observed effects not all of which are significant. When you see an SWR plot like this . . . all those peaks and valleys are artifacts of effects OTHER than the antenna itself. The plots achieved later were MUCH smoother and had a a deep 'dip' toward 1:1 SWR at the frequency of interest. The article properly identifies the need for TIGHT electrical connection between the various components, preferably soldered. The 2.9" figure for overall length above the ground plane is fine. The article fails to mention that the 'resonant ground plane' has a radius equal to the height of the antenna or a diameter of 5.8". Alternatively you go with the non-resonant ground plane (like a belly skin) were exact dimensions are LARGE compared to 2.9" but operationally insignificant. The thing about every antenna needing to be tailored to an installation is bogus. Early transponders used a one-tube transmitter consisting of an pencil triode as an oscillator operating at a frequency controlled by a resonant cavity. These transponders could be 'pulled' off-frequency by the effects of antennas. Modern, solid state transponders are not so afflicted. If you're building for a non-metalic airplane, 2.9" is the magic number for antenna length and radius of a ground plane. For a metal airplane, go for 2.9" antenna on an 'infinite' ground plane. In any case, metallic joints should be electrically 'tight' . . . solder is good. You can pick up one of these for about $20 shipping included. http://tinyurl.com/lulfq5z You would mount this on a 2.9" radius disk for use in wood or plastic airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
At 06:43 AM 8/6/2013, you wrote: >Would two units be a good idea, as a 'dipole' - one to ground (sleeve) lead Sure, it's been done. http://tinyurl.com/n5ac7zt this antenna has limited applicability in wood/plastic airplanes only and mounted on the side of the fuselage. Check out the SWR plot. Transponder (TPX)/DME Antenna, for Composite Aircraft The large area, small aspect ratio antenna elements account for the broad-band performance. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
From: Thomas Belvin <tbelvin38(at)aol.com>
Subject: Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
LinkedIn ------------ I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Thomas Thomas Belvin Independent Machinery Professional Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina Area Confirm that you know Thomas Belvin: https://www.linkedin.com/e/-7hsi75-hk164s91-15/isd/15572319604/rubPRldA/?hs=false&tok=18ffedlkgxUBQ1 -- You are receiving Invitation to Connect emails. Click to unsubscribe: http://www.linkedin.com/e/-7hsi75-hk164s91-15/5JpN31bMiEhgKj2P554BMKMjiE_sJhkc5ikNWCs302Q4E2BJJJbUapQc/goo/aeroelectric-list-digest%40matronics%2Ecom/20061/I5182482300_1/?hs=false&tok=0ozMKQDBMxUBQ1 (c) 2012 LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2013
Subject: Re: Battery question
Bob, can you comment on Odyssey's requirement to keep the charge below 15 volts? See page 6: http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-011_0213.pdf This requirement has also been given to me by phone on a few occasions. My understanding is that the battery has to see some extended time above 15 volts to cause any ill effects, particularly off-gassing. Does the SC 8010A drop below 15 quickly enough to avoid off-gassing, or would it be considered inappropriate for Odyssey batteries? Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
From: DeWitt Whittington <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com>
Bob, We've mounted the Bob Archer transponder antenna you picture just aft of Bulkhead B on the right side of the fuselage in our Sportsman 2+2. We haven't flown yet (gosh, going on 9 1/2 years of building) but we hope it works well. If we buckle down first flight will be this fall. Dee N18TA reserved DeWitt (Dee) Whittington 804-677-4849 iPhone 804-358-4333 Home www.VirginiaFlyIn.org Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 06:43 AM 8/6/2013, you wrote: > > Would two units be a good idea, as a 'dipole' - one to ground (sleeve) lead > > > Sure, it's been done. > > http://tinyurl.com/n5ac7zt > > > this antenna has limited applicability in > wood/plastic airplanes only and mounted > on the side of the fuselage. Check out > the SWR plot. > > > [image: Transponder (TPX)/DME Antenna, for Composite Aircraft] > The large area, small aspect ratio antenna elements > account for the broad-band performance. > > > ** > > ** Bob . . . > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
At 10:33 PM 8/4/2013, you wrote: > >Hey :-) > >I rolled my own comm antenna a couple years ago. Antenna worked >okay, but the location caused RFI, so I bought one and mounted it in >a different location. This homemade com antenna could be cut down >and used for my transponder antenna. > >But, how long do I cut it? Also heard about not being able to check >swr in the xpdr freq range, so if I mess up, it could ruin my unit. >ACS sells the antenna for $18, so if there's any doubt, I'd go that way. A comm antenna design is generally more robust at the base to accommodate the wind and vibration loads of the larger antenna. Further, the value of keeping VERY short leads outside the coax world is not so critical. Unless you can measure and trim for low VSWR in your modified antenna, there is risk of failing to meet design goals. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Subject: Re: Navman Fuel Flow Meter
Hi Joel, When searching for a metal housing transducer, have you looked at the 'Red Cube': http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eift60.php ? Oh, the price went down $10! Anyway, it's what some of the RV crowd is using. If you go to http://www.vansairforce.com , there are lots of discussions around it in the forum. Here's a thread that discusses the best installation location: http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?34031-fuel-flow-sensor-installation . The technical documentation says no additional pressure drop with blocked rotor. Buddy has the FlowScan 201A-6: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/mglfuelflowsensor.php installed and is happy with it. When I asked about a blocked rotor he said there is an increased pressure drop, but minimal and not affecting operations, at least on the paper. Holger On 7/31/13 3:52 PM, Joel Ventura wrote: > > > This is a post I made on one of the canard lists a couple months ago. > I got no response > there, so I thought someone here might have some information. First a > little background. > A member of that canard list posted a Navman fuel flow meter for sale > on the list, > and a well respected member of that list condemned the use of that > flow meter in aircraft > because it uses a plastic housing in its flow transducer, and at least > one pilot was killed > when that housing failed, feeding large amounts of fuel to an inflight > fire. > > ======================================================= > > First I want to thank Marc for his strong condemnation of the Navman > Fuel Flow Meter. .. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery question
At 10:20 AM 8/6/2013, you wrote: >Bob, can you comment on Odyssey's requirement to >keep the charge below 15 volts? =C2 See page 6: > ><http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-011_0213.pdf>http://www. odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-011_0213.pdf > >This requirement has also been given to me by phone on a few occasions. > >My understanding is that the battery has to see >some extended time above 15 volts to cause any >ill effects, particularly off-gassing. Does the=C2 >SC 8010A drop below 15 quickly enough to avoid >off-gassing, or would it be considered inappropriate for Odyssey batteries? > >Dave Saylor >831-750-0284 CL Have no idea my friend. Haven't tested it. Here's a chance for you to make a mark in the understanding of the various batteries and their accessories. If you acquired this (or something like it) http://tinyurl.com/lv2d6r4 you could hook your charger to a run-down battery and plot the recharge curve. I think I have an idea for how this critter could also watch the recharge current curve as well. The DAS would let you do data gathering in flight tests too. With respect to Odyssy's user data, I don't know why they would be any more vulnerable to service life degradation due to top-off protocols than any other manufacturer. ALL of them would like to see their recharge cycles stay at or below 15 volts . . . In fact, I've been disappointed that Schumacher hasn't upgraded their charger designs to do the idealize profile with a top-off to be pegged at 14.8 volts and held until charge current drops to 100 mA. If you deep cycled your Odyssey battery and hit it every time with the "too hot" Schumacher charger every time, I think the deep cycle treatment would be harder on the battery than the aggressive top-off. Under ideal conditions, a ship's battery NEVER sees a recharge from deep discharge so top-off protocols become moot. The few times that accident or circumstance demands a hot top-off shouldn't be a big event in the battery's service life. But it would be very interesting to know how that charger behaves when paired with your particular battery. If top-off plateau is higher than specified, then the time required for the recharge current to fall below the sustain decision point will be stretched out . . . wonder by how much? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Navman Fuel Flow Meter
I certainly wouldn't run a plastic transducer on the pressurized side on a fuel injected engine, but not all things plastic are always bad (as you apparently know, if you're posting on the canard list). The plastic transducers are typically used in both off-road vehicles and boats. They seem to survive in marine environments, which are just as hostile as a/c, and almost as dangerous. Running one on the cool side of the firewall on a carb'd engine is worth looking at. There are several other brands of marine fuel flow meters that have seen successful use in a/c. (I've been running a Lowrance model in an RV-4 for years.) Charlie On 08/06/2013 03:50 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > Hi Joel, > > When searching for a metal housing transducer, have you looked at the > 'Red Cube': http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eift60.php ? > Oh, the price went down $10! Anyway, it's what some of the RV crowd is > using. If you go to http://www.vansairforce.com , there are lots of > discussions around it in the forum. Here's a thread that discusses the > best installation location: > http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?34031-fuel-flow-sensor-installation > . The technical documentation says no additional pressure drop with > blocked rotor. > > Buddy has the FlowScan 201A-6: > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/mglfuelflowsensor.php > installed and is happy with it. When I asked about a blocked rotor he > said there is an increased pressure drop, but minimal and not > affecting operations, at least on the paper. > > Holger > > > On 7/31/13 3:52 PM, Joel Ventura wrote: >> >> >> This is a post I made on one of the canard lists a couple months >> ago. I got no response >> there, so I thought someone here might have some information. First a >> little background. >> A member of that canard list posted a Navman fuel flow meter for sale >> on the list, >> and a well respected member of that list condemned the use of that >> flow meter in aircraft >> because it uses a plastic housing in its flow transducer, and at >> least one pilot was killed >> when that housing failed, feeding large amounts of fuel to an >> inflight fire. >> >> ======================================================= >> >> First I want to thank Marc for his strong condemnation of the Navman >> Fuel Flow Meter. .. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
From: "messydeer" <messydeer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2013
Thanks, Bob :-) I bought one of those $20 ones off ebay yesterday. If I get antsy, get my xpdr installed and want it tested for mode C before it arrives in the mail, I'll cut down my homebuilt antenna to 2.9". -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406092#406092 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Aug 06, 2013
I probably missed part of the discussion but why are we trying to home brew a transponder antenna when you can buy one for $20? ACS or Steinair both sell one that works great. http://www.steinair.com/stor e.cfm?tlcatid=45 Tim Sent from my iPad On Aug 6, 2013, at 3:15 PM, "messydeer" wrote: > > Thanks, Bob :-) > > I bought one of those $20 ones off ebay yesterday. If I get antsy, get my x pdr installed and want it tested for mode C before it arrives in the mail, I 'll cut down my homebuilt antenna to 2.9". > > -------- > Dan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406092#406092 > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2013
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: Navman Fuel Flow Meter
The transducer he suggested is not "plastic". It probably does have a plastic turbine wheel inside, but it is the certified fuel flow transducer from Electronics International with all metal case. On 8/6/2013 2:31 PM, Charlie England wrote: > I certainly wouldn't run a plastic transducer on the pressurized side > on a fuel injected engine, but not all things plastic are always bad > (as you apparently know, if you're posting on the canard list). The > plastic transducers are typically used in both off-road vehicles and > boats. They seem to survive in marine environments, which are just as > hostile as a/c, and almost as dangerous. Running one on the cool side > of the firewall on a carb'd engine is worth looking at. There are > several other brands of marine fuel flow meters that have seen > successful use in a/c. (I've been running a Lowrance model in an RV-4 > for years.) > > Charlie > > > On 08/06/2013 03:50 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: >> Hi Joel, >> >> When searching for a metal housing transducer, have you looked at the >> 'Red Cube': http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eift60.php >> ? Oh, the price went down $10! Anyway, it's what some of the RV crowd >> is using. If you go to http://www.vansairforce.com , there are lots >> of discussions around it in the forum. Here's a thread that discusses >> the best installation location: >> http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?34031-fuel-flow-sensor-installation >> . The technical documentation says no additional pressure drop with >> blocked rotor. >> >> Buddy has the FlowScan 201A-6: >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/mglfuelflowsensor.php >> installed and is happy with it. When I asked about a blocked rotor he >> said there is an increased pressure drop, but minimal and not >> affecting operations, at least on the paper. >> >> Holger >> >> >> On 7/31/13 3:52 PM, Joel Ventura wrote: >>> >>> >>> This is a post I made on one of the canard lists a couple months >>> ago. I got no response >>> there, so I thought someone here might have some information. First >>> a little background. >>> A member of that canard list posted a Navman fuel flow meter for >>> sale on the list, >>> and a well respected member of that list condemned the use of that >>> flow meter in aircraft >>> because it uses a plastic housing in its flow transducer, and at >>> least one pilot was killed >>> when that housing failed, feeding large amounts of fuel to an >>> inflight fire. >>> >>> ======================================================= >>> >>> First I want to thank Marc for his strong condemnation of the Navman >>> Fuel Flow Meter. .. >> > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Navman Fuel Flow Meter
From: Ron Walker <n520tx(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2013
> > > The transducer he suggested is not "plastic". I think Charlie was referring to the OP discussing the "Navman Fuel Flow Meter" ... which is certainly plastic. I've been running one in my RV7a for 10 yrs (carbureted O-360) without incident. I had to re-read a few posts to understand that myself, since I agree that the red cube is certainly not plastic, and is what I'm using in my 10. --Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Navman Fuel Flow Meter
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Aug 06, 2013
This may be of interest to those running a Navman flow sensor. No horse in this race, but its worth reading I think. http://www.cozybuilders.org/Glenn_Saunders/Complete_Report.pdf Tim Sent from my iPad On Aug 6, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Ron Walker wrote: > >> >> >> The transducer he suggested is not "plastic". > > I think Charlie was referring to the OP discussing the "Navman Fuel Flow > Meter" ... which is certainly plastic. I've been running one in my RV7a > for 10 yrs (carbureted O-360) without incident. I had to re-read a few > posts to understand that myself, since I agree that the red cube is > certainly not plastic, and is what I'm using in my 10. > > --Ron > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
From: "messydeer" <messydeer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2013
I'm disappointed to report that I couldn't solder the coax to the adapter fitting. I got the core soldered okay, but the braid stumped me. Solder would stick to the braid, but not the fitting. Think it's such a big heat sink. I was afraid to hold the iron on the braid too long for fear of melting the insulation. But I guess if it's not hot enough for the solder to stick to the fitting, it's not going to melt the plastic? -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406115#406115 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: roll my own transponder antenna?
At 10:34 PM 8/6/2013, you wrote: > >I'm disappointed to report that I couldn't solder the coax to the >adapter fitting. I got the core soldered okay, but the braid stumped >me. Solder would stick to the braid, but not the fitting. Think it's >such a big heat sink. I was afraid to hold the iron on the braid too >long for fear of melting the insulation. But I guess if it's not hot >enough for the solder to stick to the fitting, it's not going to >melt the plastic? If you're using a modern coax (RG-141/142/400) then soldering temperatures will not harm the insulation. Sounds like your soldering iron is too small. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Navman Fuel Flow Meter
From: Ron Walker <n520tx(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 07, 2013
> This may be of interest to those running a Navman flow sensor. No > horse in this race, but its worth reading I think. > http://www.cozybuilders.org/Glenn_Saunders/Complete_Report.pdf Tim Interesting report -- I'm always pleased with the detail and content that is contained within Canadian TSB reports. That said, I still have questions about the installation and failure mode: - was a cause of the fire identified ? - was it the crash that caused the fracture of the meter intake ? - was the installation of this sensor up or downstream of the fuel pump ? It's not specifically called out, but it leaves you to assume that it was indeed installed within the engine compartment. Not a good idea for anything made of plastic materials due to the heat, let alone the vibration. The fact that manufacturer of the pump specifies "not for use in aircraft" is no surprise - no one wants the potential liability. I blindly assumed that since I purchased mine from Spruce that it was OK to use. With one look at it, even I figured out that it shouldn't go in the heat of the engine area -- I mounted mine close to the fuel tank, away from heat and vibration. Heck, even the engine and flight control push/pull cables that I received from Vans for my RV10 have large tags on them saying "Not for Aircraft use". The timing of this topic, though, hits close to home. I already have in hand a replacement fuel flow sensor from MGL that I am in process of installing in my 7a in place of this Navman. This thread has me re-thinking about my intent to sell this device to another aviator. --Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Navman Fuel Flow Meter
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Aug 07, 2013
Ron I cant definitively answer those questions for you. This came up recently on canard aviators when one popped up for sale and was also discussed much at the time of the accident. It my understanding the fitting cracked, broke, leaked, and ignited while airborne on first flight after a different engine (type) was installed. Marc Zeitlen can give you a lot more details if you need them, and he may have been involved in the investigation, I don't recall now, but Im pretty sure I can say he will advise you park the plane until its removed. Tim Sent from my iPad On Aug 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Ron Walker wrote: > >> This may be of interest to those running a Navman flow sensor. No >> horse in this race, but its worth reading I think. >> http://www.cozybuilders.org/Glenn_Saunders/Complete_Report.pdf Tim > > Interesting report -- I'm always pleased with the detail and content > that is contained within Canadian TSB reports. That said, I still have > questions about the installation and failure mode: > > - was a cause of the fire identified ? > - was it the crash that caused the fracture of the meter intake ? > - was the installation of this sensor up or downstream of the fuel > pump ? > > It's not specifically called out, but it leaves you to assume that it > was indeed installed within the engine compartment. Not a good idea for > anything made of plastic materials due to the heat, let alone the > vibration. > > The fact that manufacturer of the pump specifies "not for use in > aircraft" is no surprise - no one wants the potential liability. I > blindly assumed that since I purchased mine from Spruce that it was OK > to use. With one look at it, even I figured out that it shouldn't go in > the heat of the engine area -- I mounted mine close to the fuel tank, > away from heat and vibration. Heck, even the engine and flight control > push/pull cables that I received from Vans for my RV10 have large tags > on them saying "Not for Aircraft use". > > The timing of this topic, though, hits close to home. I already have in > hand a replacement fuel flow sensor from MGL that I am in process of > installing in my 7a in place of this Navman. This thread has me > re-thinking about my intent to sell this device to another aviator. > > --Ron > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 07, 2013
Subject: Re: . . . up from the ashes.
Good Morning Bob, I do believe the Model 16 was from the Travel Air days and was the last product before Curtiss Wright elected to shut down the Travel Air Division. Walter had inspired Ted Wells to come up with a high speed biplane using the latest NACA data, and that was to be the Travel Air Model 17. When Curtiss Wright made the decision to dump Travel Air, they offered Walter a job as a Vice President of Curtiss Wright. He declined and asked to be able to take Ted Wells and his design back to Wichita to build under his own name. That became his severance package! All of the above is well documented in the Book Staggerwing available in Tullahoma, Tennessee, from the Beechcraft Heritage Museum folks. The Travel Air Model 16 was a very nice open cockpit sport biplane. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 8/1/2013 5:00:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes: At 01:21 PM 8/1/2013, you wrote: Bob - I imagine a deserved sense of satisfaction on your part - Seeing some promise in this company in which you invested a fair amount of time. Yeah, it's sorta like watching some of the things your kids do after they leave home and wondering where you went wrong! But core values, no matter how obscured, can emerge under the right conditions. There were times when I would have thought my children's present achievements were completely out of reach . . . but after 20 years, mom and I couldn't be more pleased. Perhaps there's a spark of resurrection left from this company's legacies. Just discovered that there was a Model 16 built out in the Liberal facility. It post dates the Model 17 by many years. Only one ever built . . . Olive Ann didn't like it and nixed the program. I'll have to see if any pictures of it still exist. Being a one-of experimental, it seems unlikely. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2013
Subject: Re: Navman Fuel Flow Meter
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
there are many fuel flo systems out there that use the ''red cube''. the cube is metal and i have a ''flight data computer'' that uses the red cube. i little tweaking and it is dead on. my experience with this computer has been all positive. bob noffs On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Tim Andres wrote: > > > > Ron I cant definitively answer those questions for you. This came up > recently on canard aviators when one popped up for sale and was also > discussed much at the time of the accident. > It my understanding the fitting cracked, broke, leaked, and ignited while > airborne on first flight after a different engine (type) was installed. > Marc Zeitlen can give you a lot more details if you need them, and he may > have been involved in the investigation, I don't recall now, but Im pretty > sure I can say he will advise you park the plane until its removed. > Tim > > Sent from my iPad > > On Aug 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Ron Walker wrote: > > > > >> This may be of interest to those running a Navman flow sensor. No > >> horse in this race, but its worth reading I think. > >> http://www.cozybuilders.org/Glenn_Saunders/Complete_Report.pdf Tim > > > > Interesting report -- I'm always pleased with the detail and content > > that is contained within Canadian TSB reports. That said, I still have > > questions about the installation and failure mode: > > > > - was a cause of the fire identified ? > > - was it the crash that caused the fracture of the meter intake ? > > - was the installation of this sensor up or downstream of the fuel > > pump ? > > > > It's not specifically called out, but it leaves you to assume that it > > was indeed installed within the engine compartment. Not a good idea for > > anything made of plastic materials due to the heat, let alone the > > vibration. > > > > The fact that manufacturer of the pump specifies "not for use in > > aircraft" is no surprise - no one wants the potential liability. I > > blindly assumed that since I purchased mine from Spruce that it was OK > > to use. With one look at it, even I figured out that it shouldn't go in > > the heat of the engine area -- I mounted mine close to the fuel tank, > > away from heat and vibration. Heck, even the engine and flight control > > push/pull cables that I received from Vans for my RV10 have large tags > > on them saying "Not for Aircraft use". > > > > The timing of this topic, though, hits close to home. I already have in > > hand a replacement fuel flow sensor from MGL that I am in process of > > installing in my 7a in place of this Navman. This thread has me > > re-thinking about my intent to sell this device to another aviator. > > > > --Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 07, 2013
Subject: Travel Air 16
Good Morning 'Lectric Bob, I do believe the Model 16 was from the Travel Air days and was the last product before Curtiss Wright elected to shut down the Travel Air Division. Walter had inspired Ted Wells to come up with a high speed biplane using the latest NACA data, and that was to be the Travel Air Model 17. When Curtiss Wright made the decision to dump Travel Air, they offered Walter a job as a Vice President of Curtiss Wright. He declined and asked to be able to take Ted Wells and his design back to Wichita to build under his own name. That became his severance package! All of the above is well documented in the Book Staggerwing available in Tullahoma, Tennessee, from the Beechcraft Heritage Museum folks. The Travel Air Model 16 was a very nice open cockpit sport biplane. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 8/1/2013 5:00:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes: At 01:21 PM 8/1/2013, you wrote: Bob - I imagine a deserved sense of satisfaction on your part - Seeing some promise in this company in which you invested a fair amount of time. Yeah, it's sorta like watching some of the things your kids do after they leave home and wondering where you went wrong! But core values, no matter how obscured, can emerge under the right conditions. There were times when I would have thought my children's present achievements were completely out of reach . . . but after 20 years, mom and I couldn't be more pleased. Perhaps there's a spark of resurrection left from this company's legacies. Just discovered that there was a Model 16 built out in the Liberal facility. It post dates the Model 17 by many years. Only one ever built . . . Olive Ann didn't like it and nixed the program. I'll have to see if any pictures of it still exist. Being a one-of experimental, it seems unlikely. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: . . . up from the ashes.
At 10:07 AM 8/7/2013, you wrote: >Good Morning Bob, > >I do believe the Model 16 was from the Travel Air days and was the >last product before Curtiss Wright elected to shut down the Travel >Air Division. > >Walter had inspired Ted Wells to come up with a high speed biplane >using the latest NACA data, and that was to be the Travel Air Model >17. When Curtiss Wright made the decision to dump Travel Air, they >offered Walter a job as a Vice President of Curtiss Wright. He >declined and asked to be able to take Ted Wells and his design back >to Wichita to build under his own name. That became his severance package! > >All of the above is well documented in the Book Staggerwing >available in Tullahoma, Tennessee, from the Beechcraft Heritage Museum folks. > >The Travel Air Model 16 was a very nice open cockpit sport biplane. Hmmmm . . . seems some overlap of information http://tinyurl.com/mn8huw4 I think some of the Liberal crew from the 1970s are still around, I'll see if anyone can enlighten me. Liberal was the site of several production lines and several skink works kinds of effort. Our targets guys droned a Musketeer at Liberal for some military proposal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 07, 2013
Subject: Re: . . . up from the ashes.
Good Afternoon 'Lectric Bob, Sure could have been a later use of the Model 16 moniker. Beech Aircraft Corporation did play around with model numbers. No doubt there were some shenanigans out at Liberal in those days. We always wandered around as much as we could when picking up Musketeers. I know there were places we were not allowed to enter. Rumor at that time was that they were messing with an idea to build a high speed Mousketeer to supplant the Bonanza line. Did not perform worth a darn so we heard! There were ten to fifteen of the original Travel Air Model 16s built with various engines. Mostly Kinners. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 8/7/2013 12:27:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes: At 10:07 AM 8/7/2013, you wrote: Good Morning Bob, I do believe the Model 16 was from the Travel Air days and was the last product before Curtiss Wright elected to shut down the Travel Air Division. Walter had inspired Ted Wells to come up with a high speed biplane using the latest NACA data, and that was to be the Travel Air Model 17. When Curtiss Wright made the decision to dump Travel Air, they offered Walter a job as a Vice President of Curtiss Wright. He declined and asked to be able to take Ted Wells and his design back to Wichita to build under his own name. That became his severance package! All of the above is well documented in the Book Staggerwing available in Tullahoma, Tennessee, from the Beechcraft Heritage Museum folks. The Travel Air Model 16 was a very nice open cockpit sport biplane. Hmmmm . . . seems some overlap of information http://tinyurl.com/mn8huw4 I think some of the Liberal crew from the 1970s are still around, I'll see if anyone can enlighten me. Liberal was the site of several production lines and several skink works kinds of effort. Our targets guys droned a Musketeer at Liberal for some military proposal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Matt Stecher" <mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: KT 76 Installation Manual
Date: Aug 07, 2013
I am in need of the KT 76 transponder installation manual since I can't seem to find it any place. I talked with BendixKing today and for some reason they can no longer share it. I did find the pinout diagram that is on the Aeroelectric site, but I would like the entire manual to be sure that I don't miss anything. Thanks everyone and fly safe, Matt Stecher Varieze N54EG rebuild ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2013
Subject: Re: KT 76 Installation Manual
From: Mauri Morin <maurv8(at)gmail.com>
I believe I have one in the hangar, I'll check in the morning and let you know for sure. If I do, where do you want a copy sent ? MAURV8 On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 9:14 PM, Matt Stecher wrote : > I am in need of the KT 76 transponder installation manual since I can=92t > seem to find it any place. **** > > ** ** > > I talked with BendixKing today and for some reason they can no longer > share it. I did find the pinout diagram that is on the Aeroelectric site, > but I would like the entire manual to be sure that I don=92t miss anythin g.* > *** > > ** ** > > Thanks everyone and fly safe,**** > > Matt Stecher**** > > Varieze N54EG rebuild**** > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: KT 76 Installation Manual
From: Bill Putney <billp(at)wwpc.com>
Date: Aug 07, 2013
Matt, Try this. http://www.aea.net/TechPubs/BendixKing/pdf/InstallAndMaint/kt76a78 a_r7/kt76a78a_r7.pdf Bill Sent from my iPad On Aug 7, 2013, at 8:14 PM, "Matt Stecher" wrote: > I am in need of the KT 76 transponder installation manual since I can =99t seem to find it any place. > > I talked with BendixKing today and for some reason they can no longer shar e it. I did find the pinout diagram that is on the Aeroelectric site, but I w ould like the entire manual to be sure that I don=99t miss anything. > > Thanks everyone and fly safe, > Matt Stecher > Varieze N54EG rebuild > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: KT 76 Installation Manual
At 10:35 PM 8/7/2013, you wrote: >I believe I have one in the hangar, I'll check in the morning and >let you know for sure. If I do, where do you want a copy sent ? >MAURV8 If you would copy me too . . . or let me borrow the original for adding to our archives, I'll scan and return it. Box 130 Medicine Lodge, KS 67104 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Operating, installation, service manuals
While we're on that topic, if anyone has a hard copy or .pdf of a manual for some piece of avionics they'd like to share, I'd be pleased to have access to the documents for addition to the archives at AeroElectric.com Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: KT 76 Installation Manual
At 10:35 PM 8/7/2013, you wrote: >I believe I have one in the hangar, I'll check in the morning and >let you know for sure. If I do, where do you want a copy sent ? >MAURV8 > > >On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 9:14 PM, Matt Stecher ><mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >I am in need of the KT 76 transponder installation manual since I >can't seem to find it any place. > > I did find the installation manual for a KT76C http://tinyurl.com/m2zyr8q I've added a number of new documents to the Bendix/King folder at http://tinyurl.com/kcwmt6f Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2013
Subject: Re: KT 76 Installation Manual
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>
Here ya go, good luck On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 10:14 PM, Matt Stecher wrote : > I am in need of the KT 76 transponder installation manual since I can=92 t > seem to find it any place. **** > > ** ** > > I talked with BendixKing today and for some reason they can no longer > share it. I did find the pinout diagram that is on the Aeroelectric site, > but I would like the entire manual to be sure that I don=92t miss anythin g.* > *** > > ** ** > > Thanks everyone and fly safe,**** > > Matt Stecher**** > > Varieze N54EG rebuild**** > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Crowe <ian.crowe(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: KT76A/78A Manual
Date: Aug 08, 2013
I also have one. Bob if you want it to copy it is yours. Tell me where to send it. Ian B. Crowe LNC 2 C-FKRO ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2013
Subject: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com>
I have a homebuilt Pipistrel Sinus with a Rotax 912 UL that I flew to Oshkosh and back last week. The panel has a dual Dynon Skyview display with two-axis autopilot, plus radio and transponder. The total electrical load with everything running is 7 to 8 amps. Occasionally it can go to 9 or 10 amps if I'm charging cell phone and iPad en route. I'm pretty confident that I have the electrical system wired so that the ammeter is measuring the total electrical load. The alternator dropped out once on the outbound trip, but came back after removing the iPad charging load. The symptom was a voltage drop from 13.8 volts to 12.5 volts, which seemed strange. On preflight the voltage may read that high for a minute or so on a freshly-charged battery, but it quickly drops to 12.2 or 12.1 volts. In flight, the voltage would drop to 12.5 volts and stay there for several minutes. I would think that if the alternator had failed, I'd see the voltage drop to the same 12.1 volts that I see on preflight, and keep dropping slowly. I can't see why it would drop to 12.5 volts and stay there, unless the voltage regulator is failing in a way that I'm not familiar with. The alternator dropped out (same symptoms) a few times on the trip back, but by reducing the load to 3 amps (one Skyview display, radio and transponder), it stayed on line except for awhile when it seemed that the mid-day sun shining on the dashboard was adding extra heat behind the panel. That time we brought it back by directing cool air from a fresh air vent forward toward the spot where the voltage regulator is mounted inside the cabin on the back side of the firewall. So the problem seems to be heat-related. Does this make sense? The Rotax alternator is supposed to be rated for 18 amps, and able to handle a steady load of 14 amps easily. Does the Ducati regulator have a thermal self-protect cutout? Do I perhaps have a regulator that is ready to fail completely, or should I just put an avionics cooling fan behind the panel to get the air moving?Any other ideas? Regards, Paul Kuntz ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)GMAIL.COM>
Date: Aug 09, 2013
I have a RV-12 with Rotax 912 engine. The voltage regulator can be damaged by excessive heat. A fan that circulates warm air might not be enough. Van's Aircraft sells an aluminum shroud that is pop riveted to the fins of the voltage regulator. Cooling Shroud part number F-00002 $10. Blast Tube "DUCT CBT-5/8" connects to the Cooling Shroud. $3.95 per foot. http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi See page 40-14 of this document for installation instructions: http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/revisions/RV-12/Section_40.pdf Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406294#406294 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: WWII B17 Survival Story
Date: Aug 09, 2013
Incredible account of mid-air collision of our B-17 with a German fighter aircraft and its miraculous completion of the bombing mission and return flight back to England. The Entire crew not only survived but suffered no injuries! Description: Description: http://touchofheavenyardart.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/in_god_we_tru st.27144840_std.jpg Interesting pictures at the end, unbelievable story! This is an amazing story with photos that will have you muttering "Impossible." WWII B17 Survival Story Description: Description: cid:1.4214455337(at)web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Description: Description: cid:2.4214455337(at)web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com B-17 in 1943 A mid-air collision on February 1, 1943, between a B-17 and a German fighter over the Tunis dock area, became the subject of one of the most famous photographs of World War II. An enemy fighter attacking a 97th Bomb Group formation went out of control, probably with a wounded pilot then continued its crashing descent into the rear of the fuselage of a Fortress named All American, piloted by Lt. Kendrick R. Bragg, of the 414th Bomb Squadron. When it struck, the fighter broke apart, but left some pieces in the B-17. The left horizontal stabilizer of the Fortress and left elevator were completely torn away. The two right engines were out and one on the left had a serious oil pump leak. The vertical fin and the rudder had been damaged, the fuselage had been cut almost completely through connected only at two small parts of the frame, and the radios, electrical and oxygen systems were damaged. There was also a hole in the top that was over 16 feet long and 4 feet wide at its widest, and the split in the fuselage went all the way to the top gunners turret. Although the tail actually bounced and swayed in the wind and twisted when the plane turned, and all the control cables were severed except one single elevator cable still worked, and the aircraft still flew - miraculously! The tail gunner was trapped because there was no floor connecting the tail to the rest of the plane. The waist and tail gunners used parts of the German fighter and their own parachute harnesses in an attempt to keep the tail from ripping off and the two sides of the fuselage from splitting apart. While the crew was trying to keep the bomber from coming apart, the pilot continued on his bomb run and released his bombs over the target. When the bomb bay doors were opened, the wind turbulence was so great that it blew one of the waist gunners into the broken tail section. It took several minutes and four crew members to pass him ropes from parachutes and haul him back into the forward part of the plane. When they tried to do the same for the tail gunner, the tail began flapping so hard that it began to break off. The weight of the gunner was adding some stability to the tail section, so he went back to his position. The turn back toward England had to be very slow to keep the tail from twisting off. They actually covered almost 70 miles to make the turn home. The bomber was so badly damaged that it was losing altitude and speed and was soon alone in the sky. For a brief time, two more Me-109 German fighters attacked the All American. Despite the extensive damage, all of the machine gunners were able to respond to these attacks and soon drove off the fighters. The two waist gunners stood up with their heads sticking out through the hole in the top of the fuselage to aim and fire their machine guns. The tail gunner had to shoot in short bursts because the recoil was actually causing the plane to turn. Allied P-51 fighters intercepted the All American as it crossed over the Channel and took one of the pictures shown. They also radioed to the base describing that the empennage was waving like a fish tail, that the plane would not make it and to send out boats to rescue the crew when they bailed out. The fighters stayed with the Fortress taking hand signals from Lt. Bragg and relaying them to the base. Lt. Bragg signaled that 5 parachutes and the spare had been "used" so five of the crew could not bail out. He made the decision that if they could not bail out safely, then he would stay with the plane and land it. Two and a half hours after being hit, the aircraft made its final turn to line up with the runway while it was still over 40 miles away. It descended into an emergency landing and a normal roll-out on its landing gear. When the ambulance pulled alongside, it was waved off because not a single member of the crew had been injured. No one could believe that the aircraft could still fly in such a condition. The Fortress sat placidly until the crew all exited through the door in the fuselage and the tail gunner had climbed down a ladder, at which time the entire rear section of the aircraft collapsed onto the ground. The rugged old bird had done its job. Description: Description: cid:3.4214455337(at)web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Description: Description: cid:4.4214455337(at)web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Description: Description: cid:5.4214455337(at)web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Description: Description: cid:6.4214455337(at)web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.comDescription: Description: cid:7.4214455337(at)web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Description: Description: cid:8.4214455337(at)web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.comDescription: Description: cid:9.4214455337(at)web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Pass this on to someone you know will appreciate this story. God was definitely with these guys. Remember to pray for our troops ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2013
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com>
Thanks for the tip. I'll check this cooling shroud idea. I'm also wondering if my regulator has already been compromised. Any opinions on what my repeated fail/recover situation indicates? I would guess that it cycled between failed and recovered 8 or 10 times before we established a state where it stayed on line, limited to a total current draw of 3 amps. Paul On Friday, August 9, 2013, user9253 wrote: > > > > I have a RV-12 with Rotax 912 engine. The voltage regulator can be > damaged by excessive heat. A fan that circulates warm air might not be > enough. > Van's Aircraft sells an aluminum shroud that is pop riveted to the fins > of the voltage regulator. > Cooling Shroud part number F-00002 $10. > Blast Tube "DUCT CBT-5/8" connects to the Cooling Shroud. $3.95 per foot. > http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi > See page 40-14 of this document for installation instructions: > http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/revisions/RV-12/Section_40.pdf > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406294#406294 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Ground block (faston vs. ring)
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Aug 09, 2013
I need a firewall passthrough ground block. I was thinking of using ring terminals because... it seemed like a good idea? :) But looking at B&C, Steinair, etc., it seems like everyone is selling faston connectors. Just wondering if there is an inherent reason for faston over ring. And if I decide to go with ring terminals anyway, I was going to get a block of brass, drill and tap it so that I end up with the ring version of the faston style. And what about dissimilar metal corrosion? Is it recommended to place something between the ground block and the metal side of the firewall? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406350#406350 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fwd: How to test a battery
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Aug 09, 2013
'Lectric-List folks, Your commentary on this test would be appreciated. Best regards, Robert Borger, Sent from my iPad Begin forwarded message: >> Interesting. I have never heard of this. >> >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_m6p99l6ME >>> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2013
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
Paul I would consider 12.5 volts to be a no charging situation but like you I'd also expect it to slowly drop further. Your 13.8 volts is also pretty low to reasonably recharge a battery unless perhaps you are frequently flying long trips in hot temperatures. If you believe your voltmeter to be accurate, I'd indeed suggest a new regulator however the intermittent nature of the fluctuations could also indicate a poor connection. The John Deere PM regulator is rated at 20 amps and has served me well (with a 20 amp alternator) on the cabin side of the firewall although mine is mounted on a bracket about a half inch from the firewall to let air circulate under it. I am not familiar with the rotax regulator but I would consider a unit that needs air blast on it in the cabin to be way too marginal for reliable service. Ken On 09/08/2013 12:46 AM, Paul Kuntz wrote: > I have a homebuilt Pipistrel Sinus with a Rotax 912 UL that I flew to > Oshkosh and back last week. The panel has a dual Dynon Skyview > display with two-axis autopilot, plus radio and transponder. The total > electrical load with everything running is 7 to 8 amps. Occasionally it > can go to 9 or 10 amps if I'm charging cell phone and iPad en route. > I'm pretty confident that I have the electrical system wired so that > the ammeter is measuring the total electrical load. > > The alternator dropped out once on the outbound trip, but came back > after removing the iPad charging load. The symptom was a voltage drop > from 13.8 volts to 12.5 volts, which seemed strange. On preflight the > voltage may read that high for a minute or so on a freshly-charged > battery, but it quickly drops to 12.2 or 12.1 volts. In flight, the > voltage would drop to 12.5 volts and stay there for several minutes. I > would think that if the alternator had failed, I'd see the voltage drop > to the same 12.1 volts that I see on preflight, and keep dropping > slowly. I can't see why it would drop to 12.5 volts and stay there, > unless the voltage regulator is failing in a way that I'm not familiar with. > > The alternator dropped out (same symptoms) a few times on the trip back, > but by reducing the load to 3 amps (one Skyview display, radio and > transponder), it stayed on line except for awhile when it seemed that > the mid-day sun shining on the dashboard was adding extra heat behind > the panel. That time we brought it back by directing cool air from a > fresh air vent forward toward the spot where the voltage regulator is > mounted inside the cabin on the back side of the firewall. > > So the problem seems to be heat-related. Does this make sense? The > Rotax alternator is supposed to be rated for 18 amps, and able to handle > a steady load of 14 amps easily. Does the Ducati regulator have a > thermal self-protect cutout? Do I perhaps have a regulator that is > ready to fail completely, or should I just put an avionics cooling fan > behind the panel to get the air moving?Any other ideas? > > Regards, > Paul Kuntz > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: "pestar" <peter(at)reivernet.com>
Date: Aug 09, 2013
I own a French DynAero MCR-4S Rotax 914 which I part built in France prior to shipping back to New Zealand. During this time I learnt that the standard Ducatti regulator was unreliable and so I never fitted it. I replaced it with a GR6 Schicke electrical regulator which is an approved LAA mode in the UK for Rotax engines.. This regulator is a lot more robust and eliminates the flakey issues you may be experiencing. Mine is mounted under the co-pilots seat uncooled. See http://www.sarangan.org/mhonarc/mharc/html//europa-list/2012-07/msg00009.html for further info. Cheers Peter -------- Peter Armstrong Auckland, New Zealand DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me :) ). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406383#406383 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ground block (faston vs. ring)
At 01:11 PM 8/9/2013, you wrote: > >I need a firewall passthrough ground block. I was thinking of using >ring terminals because... it seemed like a good idea? :) > >But looking at B&C, Steinair, etc., it seems like everyone is >selling faston connectors. Just wondering if there is an inherent >reason for faston over ring. See http://tinyurl.com/mk5k6j >And if I decide to go with ring terminals anyway, I was going to get >a block of brass, drill and tap it so that I end up with the ring >version of the faston style. Don't tap holes for screws, use screws in clearance holes with nuts to craft captive studs over which you can run a locknut. >And what about dissimilar metal corrosion? Is it recommended to >place something between the ground block and the metal side of the firewall? This hasn't been done that I know off. B&C has been selling the ground blocks for 10+ years and I'm aware of no reported problems. Doesn't mean they don't exist but I think it's low risk. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
At 11:46 PM 8/8/2013, you wrote: I have a homebuilt Pipistrel Sinus with a Rotax 912 UL that I flew to Oshkosh and back last week. The panel has a dual Dynon Skyview display with two-axis autopilot, plus radio and transponder. The total electrical load with everything running is 7 to 8 amps. Occasionally it can go to 9 or 10 amps if I'm charging cell phone and iPad en route. I'm pretty confident that I have the electrical system wired so that the ammeter is measuring the total electrical load. The alternator dropped out once on the outbound trip, but came back after removing the iPad charging load. The symptom was a voltage drop from 13.8 volts to 12.5 volts, which seemed strange. On preflight the voltage may read that high for a minute or so on a freshly-charged battery, but it quickly drops to 12.2 or 12.1 volts. In flight, the voltage would drop to 12.5 volts and stay there for several minutes. I would think that if the alternator had failed, I'd see the voltage drop to the same 12.1 volts that I see on preflight, and keep dropping slowly. I can't see why it would drop to 12.5 volts and stay there, unless the voltage regulator is failing in a way that I'm not familiar with. Batteries charge at 13.8 and above, they deliver energy at 12.5 and below. Regulators are set to charge batteries so a functioning alternator produces a bus voltage generally above 14.0 volts. The alternator dropped out (same symptoms) a few times on the trip back, but by reducing the load to 3 amps (one Skyview display, radio and transponder), it stayed on line except for awhile when it seemed that the mid-day sun shining on the dashboard was adding extra heat behind the panel. That time we brought it back by directing cool air from a fresh air vent forward toward the spot where the voltage regulator is mounted inside the cabin on the back side of the firewall. So the problem seems to be heat-related. Does this make sense? The Rotax alternator is supposed to be rated for 18 amps, and able to handle a steady load of 14 amps easily. Does the Ducati regulator have a thermal self-protect cutout? Do I perhaps have a regulator that is ready to fail completely, or should I just put an avionics cooling fan behind the panel to get the air moving?Any other ideas? How long has this regulator been in service? 10A is a pretty light load for a 912 regulator. I suspect something has become intermittent. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground block (faston vs. ring)
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Aug 09, 2013
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 01:11 PM 8/9/2013, you wrote: > See http://tinyurl.com/mk5k6j I read that right after I made the post. Making my own ring block still looks a lot better than $50 for a 24x24 faston. > Don't tap holes for screws, use screws in clearance > holes with nuts to craft captive studs over which you > can run a locknut. Good point. Now I just have to find a big hunk of brass. :) Thanks! Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406386#406386 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: How to test a battery
At 02:13 PM 8/9/2013, you wrote: >'Lectric-List folks, > >Your commentary on this test would be appreciated. > >Best regards, >Robert Borger, > >Sent from my iPad > >Begin forwarded message: > >>>Interesting. I have never heard of this. >>> >>>> >>>><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_m6p99l6ME>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_m6p99l6ME >>>> > Youtube can be a fun place. I'll check this assertion out next time I've got some dead AA's in hand. A few years ago somebody did a youtube feature on the disassembly of a 6v spring-post lantern battery to show that it contained 32, AA cells. Since that time, dozens of folks have dug out their cameras to show that the 6v lantern battery does NOT contain a sack full of AA cells . . . here's what's REALLY inside. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TBQDGvhr3kE I've got a scale that measures to .1 gm and we can see if dead AAs loose any density and/or acquire and inner core that is cousin to a golf ball. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
At 05:38 PM 8/9/2013, you wrote: > >I own a French DynAero MCR-4S Rotax 914 which I part built in France >prior to shipping back to New Zealand. During this time I learnt >that the standard Ducatti regulator was unreliable and so I never >fitted it. I replaced it with a GR6 Schicke electrical regulator >which is an approved LAA mode in the UK for Rotax engines.. > >This regulator is a lot more robust and eliminates the flakey >issues you may be experiencing. Mine is mounted under the co-pilots >seat uncooled. Thanks for the heads-up Peter. I've heard a lot of complaints about the Ducatti regulators. There are certainly many examples of the technology with opportunity to out-perform the Ducatti product, Schicke and John Deere being amongst those that should be considered. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
At 12:55 PM 8/9/2013, you wrote: >Thanks for the tip. I'll check this cooling shroud idea. I'm also >wondering if my regulator has already been compromised. Any >opinions on what my repeated fail/recover situation indicates? I >would guess that it cycled between failed and recovered 8 or 10 >times before we established a state where it stayed on line, limited >to a total current draw of 3 amps. If your regulator can't carry 10A without cooling, it's probably broke. A functional part should be capable of rated output for the alternator which is on the order of 18A. I've not heard of any mass-movements to forced air cool these regulators. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Operating, installation, service manuals
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 10, 2013
Just sent you a Dropbox link... Sacha On Aug 8, 2013, at 7:04, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > While we're on that topic, if anyone has > a hard copy or .pdf of a manual for some > piece of avionics they'd like to share, > I'd be pleased to have access to the documents > for addition to the archives at AeroElectric.com > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Imagination + Craftsmanship: A most powerful tool
The planet is blessed with exceptional craftsmen who choose to exercise their skills in a variety of ways. <http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ccb_1375442777>http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ccb_1375442777 Examples to emulate as we hammer aluminum, steel and wire into manifestations of our own skills and imaginations. The combination of thinking + doing that produces the best of good and useful things. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground block (faston vs. ring)
From: "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 10, 2013
Don, Try this: http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/CustomGroundBlock/GroundBlock.htm After seeing it, I decided to craft my own using a K&S brass plate 12"x1"x0.064, from my hardware store, some 1258-ND tabs from Digikey, and a 5/16" x 1.5" bolt. The large brass bolt was the hardest to find (although I could have asked B&C to sell me one of theirs). I found brass washers and a bolt in short sizes from www.boltdepot.com. I saw they had a bronze bolt and decided to go with that for the extra strength to clamp down on the brass plate. Actually, two brass plates, one on each side of the firewall, with 6 tabs on the front and more on the aft side. Now I need to figure out how many tabs I will need. I'm not forced to use 24 or 48. And how to solder the tabs on. Eric - building GRT HXr/430W/327 panel on a W-10/Lyc O320 with Z-13/8 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406420#406420 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground block (faston vs. ring)
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Aug 10, 2013
eschlanser wrote: > Don, Try this: > > http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/CustomGroundBlock/GroundBlock.htm > Nice. Looks like he used aluminum as the block. Since it's such a large piece, I guess it may be an acceptable substitute for brass or copper. > After seeing it, I decided to craft my own using a K&S brass plate 12"x1"x0.064, from my hardware store, some 1258-ND tabs from Digikey, and a 5/16" x 1.5" bolt. The large brass bolt was the hardest to find (although I could have asked B&C to sell me one of theirs). I found brass washers and a bolt in short sizes from www.boltdepot.com. I saw they had a bronze bolt and decided to go with that for the extra strength to clamp down on the brass plate. > Actually, two brass plates, one on each side of the firewall, with 6 tabs on the front and more on the aft side. > Now I need to figure out how many tabs I will need. I'm not forced to use 24 or 48. And how to solder the tabs on. > > Eric - building GRT HXr/430W/327 panel on a W-10/Lyc O320 with Z-13/8 Sounds like what I'm looking to do. Thanks! Don Velocity XL-RG, Vertical Power VPx-Pro, GRT HXr, remote avionics, Cont IO-550N. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406422#406422 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2013
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com>
Thanks for the tips, everyone. I concur with Bob that my Ducati regulator is done for and should be replaced. I will take a look at the Schicke unit that Peter mentioned. Cheers, Paul Kuntz On Friday, August 9, 2013, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > At 12:55 PM 8/9/2013, you wrote: > >> Thanks for the tip. I'll check this cooling shroud idea. I'm also >> wondering if my regulator has already been compromised. Any opinions on >> what my repeated fail/recover situation indicates? I would guess that it >> cycled between failed and recovered 8 or 10 times before we established a >> state where it stayed on line, limited to a total current draw of 3 amps. >> > > If your regulator can't carry 10A without cooling, it's > probably broke. A functional part should be capable of > rated output for the alternator which is on the order > of 18A. I've not heard of any mass-movements to forced > air cool these regulators. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2013
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com>
The plane has a total of 75 hrs; ditto the engine and electrical system, so it's all basically brand new. The system voltage has always read 13.8 or 13.9 volts when the engine is running at normal flight RPMs, except for the drop-out periods I've described. It may drop below 13 volts at low RPM on the ground, but I believe that's normal. I've never seen the load go above 12 amps. 9 or 10 amps seems like the normal load with everything running. It's perhaps 2 amps less with the autopilot disengaged. The voltage regulator is on the cabin side of the firewall, mounted on a fairly large metal plate that stands off from the firewall about three-fourths of an inch. The firewall is composite with an insulating asbestos (or similar) fire-resistant blanket on the engine side. The cabin side never gets more than warm to the touch. I agree with the replies that say the Ducati regulator should handle both the load and the environment fine with no additional forced air flow. After reviewing all the replies, I'm inclined to just install a new one and see how it goes before I try to make changes to the system design, such as switching to a different regulator. Seems like there should be plenty of head room in the existing system. Paul Kuntz On Friday, August 9, 2013, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > > At 11:46 PM 8/8/2013, you wrote: > I have a homebuilt Pipistrel Sinus with a Rotax 912 UL that I flew to > Oshkosh and back last week. The panel has a dual Dynon Skyview display with > two-axis autopilot, plus radio and transponder. The total electrical load > with everything running is 7 to 8 amps. Occasionally it can go to 9 or 10 > amps if I'm charging cell phone and iPad en route. I'm pretty confident > that I have the electrical system wired so that the ammeter is measuring > the total electrical load. > > The alternator dropped out once on the outbound trip, but came back after > removing the iPad charging load. The symptom was a voltage drop from 13.8 > volts to 12.5 volts, which seemed strange. On preflight the voltage may > read that high for a minute or so on a freshly-charged battery, but it > quickly drops to 12.2 or 12.1 volts. In flight, the voltage would drop to > 12.5 volts and stay there for several minutes. I would think that if the > alternator had failed, I'd see the voltage drop to the same 12.1 volts that > I see on preflight, and keep dropping slowly. I can't see why it would > drop to 12.5 volts and stay there, unless the voltage regulator is failing > in a way that I'm not familiar with. > > Batteries charge at 13.8 and above, they deliver energy > at 12.5 and below. Regulators are set to charge batteries > so a functioning alternator produces a bus voltage generally > above 14.0 volts. > > The alternator dropped out (same symptoms) a few times on the trip back, > but by reducing the load to 3 amps (one Skyview display, radio and > transponder), it stayed on line except for awhile when it seemed that the > mid-day sun shining on the dashboard was adding extra heat behind the > panel. That time we brought it back by directing cool air from a fresh air > vent forward toward the spot where the voltage regulator is mounted inside > the cabin on the back side of the firewall. > > So the problem seems to be heat-related. Does this make sense? The Rotax > alternator is supposed to be rated for 18 amps, and able to handle a steady > load of 14 amps easily. Does the Ducati regulator have a thermal > self-protect cutout? Do I perhaps have a regulator that is ready to fail > completely, or should I just put an avionics cooling fan behind the panel > to get the air moving?Any other ideas? > > How long has this regulator been in service? 10A is > a pretty light load for a 912 regulator. I suspect > something has become intermittent. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 08/10/13
Date: Aug 11, 2013
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August, ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2013
Since the problem is intermittent, it is more likely caused by a loose connection rather than bad electronics. Prime suspect is the circuit going to voltage regulator pin "C", especially the controlling switch (Master ?) and wire terminals. It would be a worthwhile test to monitor the voltage on pin "C" during alternator failure. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406432#406432 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
At 07:06 AM 8/11/2013, you wrote: > >Since the problem is intermittent, it is more likely caused by a >loose connection rather than bad electronics. Prime suspect is the >circuit going to voltage regulator pin "C", especially the >controlling switch (Master ?) and wire terminals. >It would be a worthwhile test to monitor the voltage on pin "C" >during alternator failure. Joe brings up a good point. Intermittent failures are more likely to be a loose connection as opposed to a misbehaving piece of electronics. The Ducatti regulators are potted, mechanically robust. Doing a study of ship's wiring integrity might save you from an unnecessary regulator change out. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
Date: Aug 11, 2013
This is especially true since your observed "full charging voltage" seems to have always been a tad low. (max 13.9 volts when it would normally be expected to be 14 or greater) This may also be indicative of a loose connection creating high resistance and "fooling" the regulator right from the start. It may have never been working optimally. Bob McC. > > Joe brings up a good point. Intermittent failures > are more likely to be a loose connection as opposed > to a misbehaving piece of electronics. The Ducatti > regulators are potted, mechanically robust. > Doing a study of ship's wiring integrity might save > you from an unnecessary regulator change out. > > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fwd: How to test a battery
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 11, 2013
I watched the You Tube and decided to test my own collection of 30 new and partially used AA batteries from my grandson's toys. I have a first-rate B-K Precision model 815 test meter (with a AA-cell test scale!) for comparison. I sorted the batteries by bouncing the negative end on a marble slab. Some batteries were indeterminate, so it was not a clear choice for all batteries. Nevertheless, it seemed to make some sensible division. When the two piles were examined, it was easy to see that many weak or dead AA batteries did bounce and fell over. Many good ones tended to stay erect and not fall over. As I mentioned, there were many indeterminate batteries. Notes: --Trying to Drop the batteries straight down introduces some error. --Some construction features of the batteries, such as plastic sleeves that were too long, or details of the end contacts might have caused some problems. --I used "below 1.4V" as dead. This is arbitrary. Conclusion: The test is illustrative and interesting but not definitive. My suspicion is that the stress on the battery increases when the battery gets weak, due to a slight pressure increase caused by the chemistry products volume. This is enough to stress the ends and cause it to bounce when dropped on its end, It might make a good science project. Wiki: Alkaline battery construction. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406441#406441 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: How to test a battery
At 10:22 AM 8/11/2013, you wrote: I watched the You Tube and decided to test my own collection of 30 new and partially used AA batteries from my grandson's toys. I have a first-rate B-K Precision model 815 test meter (with a AA-cell test scale!) for comparison. I sorted the batteries by bouncing the negative end on a marble slab. Some batteries were indeterminate, so it was not a clear choice for all batteries. Nevertheless, it seemed to make some sensible division. When the two piles were examined, it was easy to see that many weak or dead AA batteries did bounce and fell over. Many good ones tended to stay erect and not fall over. As I mentioned, there were many indeterminate batteries. Notes: --Trying to Drop the batteries straight down introduces some error. --Some construction features of the batteries, such as plastic sleeves that were too long, or details of the end contacts might have caused some problems. Good data --I used "below 1.4V" as dead. This is arbitrary. Will make note of that in my attempts to repeat the experiment . . . I think the 'dead' one in the video measured 1.2v Conclusion: The test is illustrative and interesting but not definitive. My suspicion is that the stress on the battery increases when the battery gets weak, due to a slight pressure increase caused by the chemistry products volume. This is enough to stress the ends and cause it to bounce when dropped on its end, Interesting hypothesis It might make a good science project. Wiki: Alkaline battery construction. Agreed . . . more tests are needed . . . I'll gather up some test subjects and see if my grandsons are interested in doing/observing the experiment. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
At 10:16 AM 8/11/2013, you wrote: > > >This is especially true since your observed "full charging voltage" seems to >have always been a tad low. (max 13.9 volts when it would normally be >expected to be 14 or greater) My recollection is that this series of regulators tend to run low in the spectrum of battery recharge protocols. My hypothesis is that the regulator is intended for use on consumer tools like garden tractors, machines that get used frequently in-season if not all year long. Consumers are not looking for optimum performance of a battery as an energy source, only long service life for engine cranking. So the low-end design point would tend toward that goal. Adding a voltage adjust pot would be pretty cool, but fraught with risk in the hands of the weekend, shade tree mechanic . . . so I think the Ducatti regulators are what they are for well considered reasons. Selection of this regulator by Rotax for use on an aircraft may be not so well reasoned. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2013
My Rotax voltage regulator also puts out 13.8 volts. And so do others according to RV-12 owners that I have talked with. The Rotax engine starts so quickly, usually within a couple of seconds, that the battery is never discharged. Most of the time the regulator only needs to maintain the battery, not recharge it. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406451#406451 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2013
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com>
Yes, others have mentioned the possibility of a poor connection somewhere. I'll check for that first. Thanks, Paul Kuntz On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 5:06 AM, user9253 wrote: > > Since the problem is intermittent, it is more likely caused by a loose > connection rather than bad electronics. Prime suspect is the circuit going > to voltage regulator pin "C", especially the controlling switch (Master ?) > and wire terminals. > It would be a worthwhile test to monitor the voltage on pin "C" during > alternator failure. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406432#406432 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2013
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Bob, Or it may be that Ducati has a little of the Lucas bloodline. Let me tell you about my experience with another Ducati product used by Rotax. The ignition module used from approx 2005 until 2011, Rotax p/n 966726. It has a known failure in which it just stops firing at engine cranking speeds, but will fire at some elevated rpm. Once it is made to fire the module often resumes working properly for the rest of that day but when it is allowed to rest for a few days it resumes the high rpm firing. Case in point, a customers engine of that vintage that refused to start. We had already corrected a series of carburetor and fuel system issues and the engine still refused to start. I eliminated every possibility of ignition modules being grounded out, then removed them and contacted Lockwood Aviation. The customer sent the modules in and sure enough, on Lockwoods test stand they would not fire below 2000 rpm. Once that was reached the modules worked correctly then failed again in later tests. Rotax is offering owners of these modules a reduced price on the latest version, p/n 966727. This new module also offers a 'soft start' capability with a timed ignition retard to help the higher compression 912 ULS and S models start easier. Rick Girard On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**> > > At 10:16 AM 8/11/2013, you wrote: > >> robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca**> >> >> This is especially true since your observed "full charging voltage" seems >> to >> have always been a tad low. (max 13.9 volts when it would normally be >> expected to be 14 or greater) >> > > My recollection is that this series of regulators > tend to run low in the spectrum of battery recharge > protocols. My hypothesis is that the regulator is > intended for use on consumer tools like garden tractors, > machines that get used frequently in-season if not all > year long. Consumers are not looking for optimum > performance of a battery as an energy source, only > long service life for engine cranking. So the low-end > design point would tend toward that goal. > > Adding a voltage adjust pot would be pretty cool, > but fraught with risk in the hands of the weekend, > shade tree mechanic . . . so I think the Ducatti > regulators are what they are for well considered > reasons. > > Selection of this regulator by Rotax for use on an > aircraft may be not so well reasoned. > > > Bob . . . > > ------------------------------**--------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ------------------------------**--------- > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
At 06:29 PM 8/11/2013, you wrote: >Bob, Or it may be that Ducati has a little of the Lucas bloodline. >Let me tell you about my experience with another Ducati product used >by Rotax. The ignition module used from approx 2005 until 2011, >Rotax p/n 966726. It has a known failure in which it just stops >firing at engine cranking speeds, but will fire at some elevated >rpm. Once it is made to fire the module often resumes working >properly for the rest of that day but when it is allowed to rest for >a few days it resumes the high rpm firing. Case in point, a >customers engine of that vintage that refused to start. We had >already corrected a series of carburetor and fuel system issues and >the engine still refused to start. I eliminated every possibility of >ignition modules being grounded out, then removed them and contacted >Lockwood Aviation. The customer sent the modules in and sure enough, >on Lockwoods test stand they would not fire below 2000 rpm. Once >that was reached the modules worked correctly then failed again in later tests. >Rotax is offering owners of these modules a reduced price on the >latest version, p/n 966727. This new module also offers a 'soft >start' capability with a timed ignition retard to help the higher >compression 912 ULS and S models start easier. > >Rick Girard Interesting. I'm a little mystified by such stories. Seems to me robust electronics really isn't a difficult thing to do once you've set up design goals, written a test plan for performance issues critical to intended operation and then test and deliver to those issues. It's a cut-n-dried process; second nature for me and most of the electron-herders I've worked with. The fact that Rotax continues to ship a marginally adequate rectifier/regulator is also a puzzlement. I had a conversation with a system integrator a few weeks ago wherein he was wrestling with a constellation of noise generating components supplied with a new, fuel injected Rotax. The engine's fundamentals seem sound and of good value, yet the company persists in artificially crippling a good product with flaky accessories. It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in some of their customer relations meetings that deal with reported field problems. I guess that presupposes that such meetings are even held. It would be VERY interesting to see a schematic and bill of materials for the problematic ignition module . . . and know how the design was changed to correct the problem! But it sounds like the recommended replacement wasn't a corrected design but a product with new features . . . while being free of the low rpm problems of the previous design. We'll never know . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 08/11/13
Date: Aug 12, 2013
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2013
From: jpkarnes(at)comcast.net
Subject: Alt field ckt breaker tripping
My 5 amp alternator field circuit breaker is tripping after the engine runs for about a minute.=C2- I removed the alternator and had it evaluated @ the local auto parts store and it checked out OK.=C2- What other causes o ther than an overvoltage condition could cause this to happen?=C2- The al ternator is a Mitsubishi internally regulated variety.=C2- The system is fashioned on the "general aviation" schematic in the Aeroelectric=C2-appe ndix.=C2- I just completed an upgrade to include a secondary ignition set up with a switch to=C2-select the primary/secondary ignition.=C2- The e ngine is an EA-81 =C2-Stratus Subaru engine on a Zenith 601 HDS. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alt field ckt breaker tripping
At 06:25 PM 8/12/2013, you wrote: >My 5 amp alternator field circuit breaker is tripping after the >engine runs for about a minute. I removed the alternator and had it >evaluated @ the local auto parts store and it checked out OK. What >other causes other than an overvoltage condition could cause this to >happen? The alternator is a Mitsubishi internally regulated >variety. The system is fashioned on the "general aviation" >schematic in the Aeroelectric appendix. I just completed an upgrade >to include a secondary ignition setup with a switch to select the >primary/secondary ignition. The engine is an EA-81 Stratus Subaru >engine on a Zenith 601 HDS. Has the airplane flown? Has the system operated as expected in the past but shows a new symptom? Most alternators with built in regulators are not strictly compatible with the crowbar ov module sold by B&C and myself. The 5A field breaker needs to have ABSOLUTE control over field excitation voltage. This generally accomplished by some modification of the alternator's internal wiring . . . like a PlanePower, or modified for external regulation like B&C. This does not explain the symptoms you're seeing. I didn't fine your email address in my sales records which suggests you got the OVM from B&C. If you like, you can send me the OVM and I'll make sure it's calibrated correctly. This is the first step toward understanding root cause for the trips. How old is your battery and what size? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/12/13
Date: Aug 13, 2013
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August, ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alt field ckt breaker tripping
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2013
> My 5 amp alternator field circuit breaker is tripping after the engine runs for about a minute. I removed the alternator and had it evaluated @ the local auto parts store and it checked out OK. What other causes other than an overvoltage condition could cause this to happen? 1. A wire shorting to ground could trip the breaker. 2. The overvoltage module might be set for the wrong voltage, thus tripping the circuit breaker at normal voltages. 3. There could be high resistance in the alternator field circuit. This makes the voltage regulator see a lower voltage than exists on the main bus. The voltage regulator then puts out higher current in order to increase the alternator output voltage. 4. The voltage regulator could be defective. 5. The circuit breaker could be getting warm from a bad connection. 6. The circuit breaker could be defective. Number 3 above is the most likely cause of the problem. Every switch and terminal connection is suspect. A combination of borderline connections can add up their resistances to cause a lower voltage at the regulator. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406609#406609 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Alt field ckt breaker tripping
Date: Aug 13, 2013
>> My 5 amp alternator field circuit breaker is tripping after the engine >> runs for about a minute. I removed the alternator and had it evaluated @ >> the local auto parts store and it checked out OK. What other causes other >> than an overvoltage condition could cause this to happen? > > 1. A wire shorting to ground could trip the breaker. > 2. The overvoltage module might be set for the wrong voltage, thus > tripping the circuit breaker at normal voltages. > 3. There could be high resistance in the alternator field circuit. This > makes the voltage regulator see a lower voltage than exists on the main > bus. The voltage regulator then puts out higher current in order to > increase the alternator output voltage. > 4. The voltage regulator could be defective. > 5. The circuit breaker could be getting warm from a bad connection. > 6. The circuit breaker could be defective. > > Number 3 above is the most likely cause of the problem. Every switch and > terminal connection is suspect. A combination of borderline connections > can add up their resistances to cause a lower voltage at the regulator. This line was in the original post: " The alternator is a Mitsubishi internally regulated variety." This may have a substantial effect on the operation, as per Bob's previous posting. Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2013
From: jpkarnes(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Alt field ckt breaker tripping
Hi all, The engine and its electrical system has flown for over 100 hours.=C2- Th e battery is a brand new 12V 18AH gel battery.=C2- The plane has not flow n for over a year while some modifications/upgrades have been undertaken. =C2- The only difference is the installation of a secondary ignition syst em ala Paul Messenger's dual dizzy setup.=C2-=C2- I really doubt that t here is a short to ground that is causing this problem.=C2-=C2-Do you r ecommend installing an external voltage regulator and if so, which one?=C2 - Clearing =C2-this latest hurdle is the only thing keeping me from get ting airborne again. :o) John Karnes Suquamish, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 08/13/13
Date: Aug 14, 2013
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alt field ckt breaker tripping
At 12:40 PM 8/13/2013, you wrote: >Hi all, > > >The engine and its electrical system has flown for over 100 >hours. The battery is a brand new 12V 18AH gel battery. The plane >has not flown for over a year while some modifications/upgrades have >been undertaken. The only difference is the installation of a >secondary ignition system ala Paul Messenger's dual dizzy setup. I >really doubt that there is a short to ground that is causing this >problem. Do you recommend installing an external voltage regulator >and if so, which one? Clearing this latest hurdle is the only thing >keeping me from getting airborne again. :o) > > Okay, good data. We know this is a change from previously satisfactory operation. The battery is relatively new and not likely to be 'soggy' such that it contributes to system instability. A automotive shop has pronounced the alternator as righteous so it seems there is little probability of internal regulator failure. You can confirm by running the airplane with a voltmeter on the bus (preferably an analog meter with a needle) and see that the voltage is not only in the ballpark but not 'jumpy'. Of course, you need to disconnect the OV module. Once you have confidence in alternator performance then attention turns to the ov module. It may well be out of calibration. You can test it on the bench with an adjustable power supply. If a current limited supply, set for about 1A, if not, put an automotive tail light bulb in series with the ov module. Increase voltage very slowly until the voltage drops and/or light bulb lights. The module should trip at more than 16.0 and less than 16.5 volts. I wouldn't worry about flying without it. Using the crowbar OV module on an internally regulated alternator offers a false sense of security. There are failures internal to the regulator that cannot be externally address except with techniques like . . . http://tinyurl.com/7z6yzv9 There are dozens of suitable regulators for external control of an alternator. The problem is that you need to open your alternator, ground one field brush, bring other brush to outside world. Let's get your airplane flying first and then talk about how you're going to address over-voltage events. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2013
From: jpkarnes(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Alt field ckt breaker tripping
The 5A field breaker needs to have ABSOLUTE control over field excitation voltage. This generally accomplished by some modification of the alternator's internal wiring . . . like a PlanePower, or modified for external regulation like B&C. How do I achieve the state you describe above "ABSOLUTE control over field excitation voltage." This does not explain the symptoms you're seeing. I didn't fine your email address in my sales records which suggests you got the OVM from B&C. I think I purchased the OVM from you; it was probably over 10 years ago... If you like, you can send me the OVM and I'll make sure it's calibrated correctly. This is the first step toward understanding root cause for the trips. How old is your battery and what size? Battery is 12V 18AH gel battery... Thanks so much for your help!! John K. Zenith 601HDS with Stratus Subaru engine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2013
From: jpkarnes(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Alt field ckt breaker tripping
Bob, you made my day.=C2- The engine has never run better and I have adhe red to just about every recommendation you=C2-gave in your manual.=C2- I am an electrical neophyte and your input has been invaluable.=C2- I owe you a debt of gratitude!! John K. Suquamish, WA Zenith 601HDS w/Stratus Subaru/Ram heads ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alt field ckt breaker tripping
At 01:55 PM 8/14/2013, you wrote: >Bob, you made my day. The engine has never run better and I have >adhered to just about every recommendation you gave in your >manual. I am an electrical neophyte and your input has been >invaluable. I owe you a debt of gratitude!! > > ' Pleased to be of service. Fly comfortably . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 08/14/13
Date: Aug 15, 2013
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August, ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 15, 2013
The backup battery died for my Dynon D-180. My RV-12 is used for day VFR only. A backup battery is not a necessity. Instead of paying Dynon $130 every couple of years for a new backup battery, I thought of an alternative brownout circuit to prevent the D-180 from rebooting during engine start. Not wanting to add the weight of a 7ah lead acid battery, I decided to use a couple of AA batteries. I tapped into the load side of the start switch and connected to an AA battery holder, then to the External Backup Power input pin 15 on the back of the Dynon. I figured that 3 volts from the AA batteries in series with the aricraft's 8 volts during engine start would provide the Dynon with 11 volts, one volt above the minimum required. As you might have guessed, the experiment failed. The Dynon still reboots during engine start. Evidently the AA cells are unable to maintain their voltage and supply 1.5 amps for a couple of seconds during engine start. Should I repeat the experiment using "D" cells? Or is the whole idea flawed? Comments and suggestions appreciated. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406766#406766 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
On 08/15/2013 10:36 AM, user9253 wrote: > > The backup battery died for my Dynon D-180. My RV-12 is used for day V FR only. A backup battery is not a necessity. Instead of paying Dynon $ 130 every couple of years for a new backup battery, I thought of an alter native brownout circuit to prevent the D-180 from rebooting during engine start. Not wanting to add the weight of a 7ah lead acid battery, I deci ded to use a couple of AA batteries. I tapped into the load side of the start switch and connected to an AA battery holder, then to the External Backup Power input pin 15 on the back of the Dynon. I figured that 3 vol ts from the AA batteries in series with the aricraft's 8 volts during eng ine start would provide the Dynon with 11 volts, one volt above the minim um required. As you might have guessed, the experiment failed. The Dyno n still reboots during engine start. Evidently the AA cells are unable t o maintain their voltage and supply 1.5 amps for a couple of seconds duri ng engine start. Should I repeat the expe! > riment using "D" cells? Or is the whole idea flawed? > Comments and suggestions appreciated. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > Short answer: that (series connection of the AA's) won't work. You could insert them in place of the original backup battery, but the Dynon backup is recharged constantly by the plane's supply during normal operation. http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_Battery.html This means that the AA's will have charging voltage applied to them constantly, & you'll likely have an acidic mess in the D-180 fairly quickly. How about bringing the backup power terminals outside the unit, & making up a Ni-MH battery pack with the same voltage/AH rating as the Li-ion pack? It would be a bit larger & heavier, but nothing like a lead-acid battery. And really inexpensive. Charlie <http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_Battery.html> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
At 10:36 AM 8/15/2013, you wrote: > >The backup battery died for my Dynon D-180. My RV-12 is used for >day VFR only. A backup battery is not a necessity. Instead of >paying Dynon $130 every couple of years for a new backup battery, I >thought of an alternative brownout circuit to prevent the D-180 from >rebooting during engine start. Not wanting to add the weight of a >7ah lead acid battery, I decided to use a couple of AA batteries. I >tapped into the load side of the start switch and connected to an AA >battery holder, then to the External Backup Power input pin 15 on >the back of the Dynon. I figured that 3 volts from the AA batteries >in series with the aricraft's 8 volts during engine start would >provide the Dynon with 11 volts, one volt above the minimum >required. As you might have guessed, the experiment failed. The >Dynon still reboots during engine start. Evidently the AA cells are >unable to maintain their voltage and supply 1.5 amps for a couple of >seconds during engine start. Should I repeat the experiment using >"D" cells? Or is the whole idea flawed? >Comments and suggestions appreciated. >Joe The 'brown out' event is just a few hundred milliseconds long. Also, without the knowledge afforded by schematics and/or design goals for performance of the back-up battery power input pin, the precise cause for the failure is unknown. How low can the battery back up pin go and still support the dynon over the duration of a brown-out transient? Does the back up battery pin draw any current when the ship's power is OFF? In other words, what conditions must exist to relieve the back-up battery pin of any load? What is the load current demand on a back-up battery? You can explore these questions with an adjustable power supply hooked to the back-up battery pin. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
> > The 'brown out' event is just a few hundred milliseconds > long. See http://tinyurl.com/pyszrmf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
From: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
Or just pull the breaker, (if you have one), for the Dynon and close it after engine start. That's what I've been doing with a D-10 for years. Ed Holyoke On 8/15/2013 9:27 AM, Charlie England wrote: > On 08/15/2013 10:36 AM, user9253 wrote: >> >> The backup battery died for my Dynon D-180. My RV-12 is used for day VFR only. A backup battery is not a necessity. Instead of paying Dynon $130 every couple of years for a new backup battery, I thought of an alternative brownout circuit to prevent the D-180 from rebooting during engine start. Not wanting to add the weight of a 7ah lead acid battery, I decided to use a couple of AA batteries. I tapped into the load side of the start switch and connected to an AA battery holder, then to the External Backup Power input pin 15 on the back of the Dynon. I figured that 3 volts from the AA batteries in series with the aricraft's 8 volts during engine start would provide the Dynon with 11 volts, one volt above the minimum required. As you might have guessed, the experiment failed. The Dynon still reboots during engine start. Evidently the AA cells are unable to maintain their voltage and supply 1.5 amps for a couple of seconds during engine start. Should I repeat the ex pe! >> >> riment using "D" cells? Or is the whole idea flawed? >> Comments and suggestions appreciated. >> Joe >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> > Short answer: that (series connection of the AA's) won't work. > > You could insert them in place of the original backup battery, but the > Dynon backup is recharged constantly by the plane's supply during > normal operation. > http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_Battery.html > This means that the AA's will have charging voltage applied to them > constantly, & you'll likely have an acidic mess in the D-180 fairly > quickly. > > How about bringing the backup power terminals outside the unit, & making > up a Ni-MH battery pack with the same voltage/AH rating as the Li-ion > pack? It would be a bit larger & heavier, but nothing like a lead-acid > battery. And really inexpensive. > > Charlie > <http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_Battery.html> > > * > > > * > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
>Short answer: that (series connection of the AA's) won't work. > >You could insert them in place of the original backup battery, but >the Dynon backup is recharged constantly by the plane's supply >during normal operation. ><http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_Battery.html>http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_Battery.html > >This means that the AA's will have charging voltage applied to them >constantly, & you'll likely have an acidic mess in the D-180 fairly quickly. > >How about bringing the backup power terminals outside the unit, & >making up a Ni-MH battery pack with the same voltage/AH rating as >the Li-ion pack? It would be a bit larger & heavier, but nothing >like a lead-acid battery. And really inexpensive. Good input Charlie, If it's a lithium battery that's being replaced, then an array of 4 lithium cells could be fabricated to put in place of the factory product. In fact, if one tears a Dynon battery apart, the picture on the website suggests that the cell pack is made form four of these guys . . . http://tinyurl.com/krgpjtx So it seems that for about $16 you could refurbish the original pack . . . Referring to the D180_IM we read: [backup battery] Will operate the FlightDEK-D180 only if Master Power is not present. The transition from Master Power to External Backup Power will bring up a warning, requiring you to press ACK within 30 seconds to keep the unit operating. This warning will also display when transitioning from either Master or External Backup to Internal Battery power. This sounds like a free floating input from an external power source that is not intended to be charged from within the D180 nor is it loaded unless main power is missing and limited to 30 seconds of loading unless acknowledged by pilot input. So an external battery on the order of 10-14 volts will probably secure satisfactory brown-out performance. If a DIY refurb of internal battery using off the shelf, tabbed cells is not a option, then an external pak of cells tied to the bus through a series diode and perhaps a 200 ohms (limit charging current to very low value) would take care of brown-out events. This external pack might be 4 lithium cells or maybe 8 Ni-Mh cells intended to be (1) used hundreds of milliseconds per flight and (2) very lightly charged from the bus. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Aug 15, 2013
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
On 08/15/2013 01:00 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> Short answer: that (series connection of the AA's) won't work. >> >> You could insert them in place of the original backup battery, but >> the Dynon backup is recharged constantly by the plane's supply >> during normal operation. >> http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_Battery.html >> <http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_Battery.html> > >> This means that the AA's will have charging voltage applied to them >> constantly, & you'll likely have an acidic mess in the D-180 fairly >> quickly. >> >> How about bringing the backup power terminals outside the unit, & >> making up a Ni-MH battery pack with the same voltage/AH rating as the >> Li-ion pack? It would be a bit larger & heavier, but nothing like a >> lead-acid battery. And really inexpensive. > > Good input Charlie, > > If it's a lithium battery that's being replaced, > then an array of 4 lithium cells could be fabricated > to put in place of the factory product. In fact, > if one tears a Dynon battery apart, the picture > on the website suggests that the cell pack is > made form four of these guys . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/krgpjtx > > So it seems that for about $16 you could refurbish > the original pack . . . > > Referring to the D180_IM we read: > > *[backup battery] Will operate the FlightDEK-D180 only if Master > Power is not present. The transition from Master > Power to External Backup Power will bring up a > warning, requiring you to press ACK within 30 > seconds to keep the unit operating. This warning will > also display when transitioning from either Master or > External Backup to Internal Battery power. > > * This sounds like a free floating input from an > external power source that is not intended to be charged > from within the D180 nor is it loaded unless > main power is missing and limited to 30 seconds > of loading unless acknowledged by pilot input. > > So an external battery on the order of 10-14 > volts will probably secure satisfactory brown-out > performance. If a DIY refurb of internal battery > using off the shelf, tabbed cells is not a option, > then an external pak of cells tied to the > bus through a series diode and perhaps a 200 > ohms (limit charging current to very low value) > would take care of brown-out events. This external > pack might be 4 lithium cells or maybe 8 Ni-Mh > cells intended to be (1) used hundreds of milliseconds > per flight and (2) very lightly charged from > the bus. > > Bob . . . > > *From the same web page: * > The battery and charging circuitry are conveniently encased within the > EFIS itself and automatically charge that battery anytime external > power is applied. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Well, maybe the little circuit does something else... Charging was just a logical guess on my part. On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Charlie England wrote: > On 08/15/2013 01:00 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > Short answer: that (series connection of the AA's) won't work. > > You could insert them in place of the original backup battery, but the Dynon > backup is recharged constantly by the plane's supply during normal > operation. > http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_Battery.html > > > This means that the AA's will have charging voltage applied to them > constantly, & you'll likely have an acidic mess in the D-180 fairly quickly. > > How about bringing the backup power terminals outside the unit, & making up > a Ni-MH battery pack with the same voltage/AH rating as the Li-ion pack? It > would be a bit larger & heavier, but nothing like a lead-acid battery. And > really inexpensive. > > > Good input Charlie, > > If it's a lithium battery that's being replaced, > then an array of 4 lithium cells could be fabricated > to put in place of the factory product. In fact, > if one tears a Dynon battery apart, the picture > on the website suggests that the cell pack is > made form four of these guys . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/krgpjtx > > So it seems that for about $16 you could refurbish > the original pack . . . > > Referring to the D180_IM we read: > > [backup battery] Will operate the FlightDEK-D180 only if Master > Power is not present. The transition from Master > Power to External Backup Power will bring up a > warning, requiring you to press ACK within 30 > seconds to keep the unit operating. This warning will > also display when transitioning from either Master or > External Backup to Internal Battery power. > > This sounds like a free floating input from an > external power source that is not intended to be charged > from within the D180 nor is it loaded unless > main power is missing and limited to 30 seconds > of loading unless acknowledged by pilot input. > > So an external battery on the order of 10-14 > volts will probably secure satisfactory brown-out > performance. If a DIY refurb of internal battery > using off the shelf, tabbed cells is not a option, > then an external pak of cells tied to the > bus through a series diode and perhaps a 200 > ohms (limit charging current to very low value) > would take care of brown-out events. This external > pack might be 4 lithium cells or maybe 8 Ni-Mh > cells intended to be (1) used hundreds of milliseconds > per flight and (2) very lightly charged from > the bus. > > Bob . . . > > > From the same web page: > > The battery and charging circuitry are conveniently encased within the EFIS > itself and automatically charge that battery anytime external power is > applied. > > > Charlie > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
> > >>The battery and charging circuitry are conveniently encased within >>the EFIS itself and automatically charge that battery anytime >>external power is applied. > >Charlie The opening thought for this thread was to search out an alternative to the expensive, built-in battery. If it can be cloned from stock cells, then that would be the obvious $low$ move. If not, then an external battery from li-ion or ni-mh with a trickle charge circuit would be a second choice. Doing the system integration to pin 15 was the unknown task . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 15, 2013
The Dynon D-180 has 3 power inputs, the Master Power input on pin 1, External Backup Power on pin 15, and internal backup power using Dynon's proprietary Li-Ion $130 battery. Pins 1 and 15 require between 10 and 30 volts. The D-180 draws about 1.5 amps. If voltage is available on pin 1, then the D-180 will not use power from pin 15. No power is used from either input when the unit is turned off. There is an alarm if power fails on pin 1. But the alarm will silence automatically when power is restored on pin 1. During engine start, the pilot never sees that alarm because it is only there for a millisecond. After the internal battery failed, I thought the same as Bob suggested: Buy 4 Li-Ion cells off eBay to replace the original ones. It seemed like a simple and inexpensive solution until the new cells arrived in the mail and I tried replacing the old ones. There is more to the battery pack than just batteries. There is a circuit board about 1/2" x 2" that is glued to the batteries. Evidently this circuit board monitors the voltage on each cell and charges each cell individually rather then treating all 4 cells as a single battery. After all, these are Li-Ion cells that could cause a fire if not charged properly. Normally I would never work on an electronic circuit with the power turned on. But one can not turn off a battery. Who knows if I damaged the circuit board by soldering live wires onto it in random sequence? Another problem is that the battery compartment opening is just barely big enough to slide Dynon's battery pack in. Just a few extra thousandths and the battery will not slide into the opening. Of course my battery pack was too high to go in. I took off some of the electrical tape and did manage to force it in. But being worried about cells shorting out to the metal enclosure, I took my batteries out and abandoned the idea. Why take a chance on a fire caused by my homemade Li-Ion battery pack? Running the internal battery wires and plug outside of the case is not an option because the battery compartment door is on the side of the case and blocked by the D-180 mounting tray. As Charlie pointed out, the internal battery cable puts out a charging voltage. I did not want to connect another type of battery to that. So I decided to use pin 15, the External Battery input which does not receive a charging voltage from the D-180. And it is accessible on the back of the case. I could just leave the D-180 turned off during engine start as Ed suggested. But I like having it on to give the altimeter time to stabilize. And monitoring electric fuel pump pressure is part of the pre-start checklist. One concern that I have with alkaline batteries in series with the start contactor supply is that the arc suppression diode on the starter contactor is forward biased to my alkaline batteries. But my batteries did not discharge after 24 hours. I will continue to experiment and post my results. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406818#406818 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
At 08:28 PM 8/15/2013, you wrote: > >The Dynon D-180 has 3 power inputs, the Master Power input on pin 1, >External Backup Power on pin 15, and internal backup power using >Dynon's proprietary Li-Ion $130 battery. Pins 1 and 15 require >between 10 and 30 volts. The D-180 draws about 1.5 amps. Okay, this means that 1 and 15 feed a switchmode power supply. This will be a constant wattage input of 14w max according to the manual. So an 18-pack of AA alkaline cells as a backup battery would offer a backup supply of 27 volts which would be loaded to the tune of 0.5A max for the few milliseconds of brownout. This figure is well within the capability of an AA alkaline. Given that the pak is loaded for hundreds of milliseconds once each flight, the battery pack service life should be measurable in years. Since it's only intended to provide brown-out mitigation, then you have no risk of latent failure going unnoticed before flight. Evidently this circuit board monitors the voltage on each cell and charges each cell individually rather then treating all 4 cells as a single battery. Yup, just about everybody is doing smart batteries when populated with li-ion cells. Given that you never plan to run these things down, they'll only need to support the brown-out transient. So a series array trickle charged through a resistor is not even going to warm up. In fact, you'd probably want to use only 3 cells so that you can produce a nearly constant current through a resistor. Say the cranking transient draws 1.5A at 11 volts from a string of 3 cells for 500 milliseconds. That's about 7J of energy max. Okay, assume 80% charging efficiency so over the next hour, you'll want to stuff about 10J back into the cells. 10J at 10v for in 1 second is about 1 amp of recharge current. For one hour, it's 1/3600 or 277 microamps! I suspect these cells would not be seriously insulted with say, 1 milliamp of 100% duty cycle trickle charge, so a 5K resistor with a diode in series to prevent back feed would offer a top-off-trickle charge to the array. A similar approach could be considered for ni-mh array. Problem is the self-discharge rate of these cells would probably disqualify them. So a free standing AA alkaline pak or drip-charged li-ion pak seem the most viable battery options. How about an active option? A step up module like this one http://tinyurl.com/m7t78eh could be set up to supply say 19 volts to pin 15 of the Dynon, but would certainly support 14 watts for 500 milliseconds during a brown-out. You might have some RFI issues with this necessitating some filters and perhaps a metallic enclosure . . . but it's small and the price is right. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
FWIW I have a similar dc to dc converter in a plastic box running a 28v Turn & Bank instrument off 12 volts and have no RFI issues. Ken On 15/08/2013 10:58 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 08:28 PM 8/15/2013, you wrote: >> >> The Dynon D-180 has 3 power inputs, the Master Power input on pin 1, >> External Backup Power on pin 15, and internal backup power using >> Dynon's proprietary Li-Ion $130 battery. Pins 1 and 15 require >> between 10 and 30 volts. The D-180 draws about 1.5 amps. > > Okay, this means that 1 and 15 feed a switchmode power > supply. This will be a constant wattage input of 14w > max according to the manual. So an 18-pack of AA alkaline > cells as a backup battery would offer a backup supply of > 27 volts which would be loaded to the tune of 0.5A max > for the few milliseconds of brownout. > > This figure is well within the capability of an AA > alkaline. Given that the pak is loaded for hundreds > of milliseconds once each flight, the battery pack > service life should be measurable in years. > > Since it's only intended to provide brown-out > mitigation, then you have no risk of latent failure > going unnoticed before flight. > > Evidently this circuit board monitors the voltage on each cell and > charges each cell individually rather then treating all 4 cells as a > single battery. > > Yup, just about everybody is doing smart batteries > when populated with li-ion cells. Given that you > never plan to run these things down, they'll only > need to support the brown-out transient. So a > series array trickle charged through a resistor > is not even going to warm up. In fact, you'd > probably want to use only 3 cells so that you can > produce a nearly constant current through a resistor. > > Say the cranking transient draws 1.5A at 11 volts > from a string of 3 cells for 500 milliseconds. That's > about 7J of energy max. Okay, assume 80% charging > efficiency so over the next hour, you'll want to > stuff about 10J back into the cells. 10J at 10v > for in 1 second is about 1 amp of recharge current. > For one hour, it's 1/3600 or 277 microamps! > > I suspect these cells would not be seriously > insulted with say, 1 milliamp of 100% duty > cycle trickle charge, so a 5K resistor with > a diode in series to prevent back feed would > offer a top-off-trickle charge to the array. > > A similar approach could be considered for > ni-mh array. Problem is the self-discharge > rate of these cells would probably disqualify > them. So a free standing AA alkaline pak or > drip-charged li-ion pak seem the most viable > battery options. > > How about an active option? A step up module > like this one > > http://tinyurl.com/m7t78eh > > could be set up to supply say 19 volts to > pin 15 of the Dynon, but would certainly > support 14 watts for 500 milliseconds during > a brown-out. > > You might have some RFI issues with this > necessitating some filters and perhaps > a metallic enclosure . . . but it's > small and the price is right. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
At 10:20 PM 8/15/2013, you wrote: > >FWIW I have a similar dc to dc converter in a plastic box running a >28v Turn & Bank instrument off 12 volts and have no RFI issues. >Ken Good data . . . thank you. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 08/15/13
Date: Aug 16, 2013
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August, ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2013
> How about an active option? A step up module > like this one > > http://tinyurl.com/m7t78eh > > could be set up to supply say 19 volts to > pin 15 of the Dynon, but would certainly > support 14 watts for 500 milliseconds during > a brown-out. Did you mean 14 *volts*? How can you tell that it would support that for a half a second brownout? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2013
Today I tried using 2 "D" cells to boost the voltage during engine start. But the Dynon D-180 still rebooted. Next I tried 4 AA cells. Success! With the ignition off, I cranked the engine. The D-180 did NOT reboot. Now if I could only find some CR14505 3 volt AA batteries to go into my 2 cell panel mounted battery holder. I might take Bob's suggestion and use a DC to DC booster. Schematic attached. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406883#406883 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/brownout_batt_174.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 16, 2013
Any electronic device that fails during engine start is not well designed for the environment it is sold for. An old Car Talk line: Ask the manufacture to fix it. If they say 'they're all like that', just say 'fine; fix them all. Start with this one'. Slumping voltage on power lines is easy to fix. Dynon certainly knows how to design the circuit. It's a good place to use a supercapacitor if the slump is low enough and long enough to warrant it, otherwise a capacitor will do. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406889#406889 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2013
I had thought about a capacitor. It would have to be isolated with a diode or resistor or relay so that it does not give its energy to the starter motor. And it would have to maintain at least 10 volts for 1/4 second. What amount of capacitance is required? Super capacitors are expensive. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406896#406896 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2013
Okay, it's pretty easy to run the numbers from the perspective of the transfer of energy from a capacitor to some load. The energy stored on a capacitor is (C*E^2)/2 = Joules. We deduced a need for 7 Joules to be available to the D180 at 10V or greater. The charging source is the battery. A fully charged battery would rest at about 13.0 volts. So energy stored at 13 volts minus remaining energy at 10 volts must be 7Joules or more. (C*13^2)/2 - (C*10^2)/2 = 7 169C/2 - 100C/2 = 7 69C/2 = 7 34.5C = 7 C = 7/34.5 = 0.2 Farads The capacitor should be good for at least 15 volts unless you're going to disconnect it with the alternator running. As you've noted, it would also need to be diode or switch isolated from the bus to prevent back-feed. A diode would offer significant impact to the e-squared nature of energy stored . . . so perhaps relay or switch contacts should be used to unhook the capacitor from the bus milliseconds before starter is engaged. AA cells are not well suited to 1+ amp discharge situations but as you've discovered, D-cells took the hit nicely. A d-cell array is certainly cost attractive but gives you another battery to maintain. But it gets pre-flight tested every start-up. I suspect service life on a d-cell array would be quite long. A super-cap is maintenance free but not cheap and pretty hefty in size. The DC to DC converter is small, maintenance free and the price is certainly right. It appears you have a constellation of options to consider. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406903#406903 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2013
[/quote] Did you mean 14 *volts*? How can you tell that it would support that for a half a second brownout?[/quote] The dc-dc converter in consideration is a step-up device with an input range of 3-32 volts, an output range of 5-35 volts. The only constraints on picking an operating point is to have the output set to always be greater than the input . . . which can in this case be as much as 15 volts. So some comfortable head-room above 15 is in order. The higher the selection, the lower the current demanded by the Dynon's switchmode power supply. 17 would probably work too. Here's some input/output combinations the supplier says this critter will handle. Test comparison sample reference: Input 3V Output 12V 0.4A 4.8W Input 5V Output 12V 0.8A 9.6W Input 7.4V Output 12V 1.5A 18W Input 12V Output 15V 2A 30W Input 12V Output 16V 2A 32W Input 12V Output 18V 1.6A 28.8W Input 12V Output 19V 1.5A 28.5W Input 12V Output 24V 1 A 24W Our 'target low input' is on the order of 7 v so we're asking the little feller to put out 14 watts max with 7v in and some output with headroom above 15volts . . . 19 seemed like a handy number. Actually if wired so the converter gets input power only with the starter button pushed, we can eliminate the possibility of operation with the alternator running. So adjusting for say 15 volts output would suffice for the fully charged, unloaded battery case . . . with all bases covered for battery voltage profile during cranking . . . especially during starter inrush. Good question. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406904#406904 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 08/16/13
Date: Aug 17, 2013
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August, ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2013
> AA cells are not well suited to 1+ amp discharge situations but as you've discovered, D-cells took the hit nicely. A d-cell array is certainly cost attractive but gives you another battery to maintain. Actually my successful experiment used 4 AA batteries. Two D batteries did not keep the D-180 from rebooting, nor did 3 AA. I did not try 3 or 4 D batteries, mainly because I did not have battery holder. A capacitor or DC-DC booster will offer a more elegant solution. Or perhaps a combination of DC booster supplying a higher voltage to a capacitor. Mouser sells a 25volts 150000uF part number 647-LNR1E154MSE at a reasonable cost. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406912#406912 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2013
> Actually my successful experiment used 4 AA batteries. Two D batteries did not keep the D-180 from rebooting, nor did 3 AA. I did not try 3 or 4 D batteries, mainly because I did not have battery holder. > A capacitor or DC-DC booster will offer a more elegant solution. Or perhaps a combination of DC booster supplying a higher voltage to a capacitor. Mouser sells a 25volts 150000uF part number 647-LNR1E154MSE at a reasonable cost. Joe Yeah, a smaller capacitor charged to a higher voltage would probably do it too. The AA experiment obviously worked but even though their 'sag' under load did not torpedo the experiment, it's going to affect service life. Consider a 4xD as a soldered up pak with flying leads. I'm pretty sure this would give you a good service life . . . probably a couple of years as long as your airplane is not stored in a closed hangar under an Arizona sun. The dc to dc converter we looked at first set for a 12v output and driven from the downstream side of your starter button seems pretty elegant. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406922#406922 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 17, 2013
Bob, Thanks for the advice. I will use 4 AA batteries temporarily and order a DC-DC booster for a long term solution. Do you think that the DC-DC converter will come alive and boost the voltage before the starter contactor energizes the starter motor? Electronics should be faster than a mechanical device. Thanks, Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406941#406941 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 08/17/13
Date: Aug 18, 2013
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2013
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
Talking of dc-dc converters, this is probably more than many might want to spend, but TCW produces some well thought out components. http://www.tcwtech.com/IPS-12v.htm Peter On 17/08/2013 18:21, nuckollsr wrote: > > >> Actually my successful experiment used 4 AA batteries. Two D batteries did not keep the D-180 from rebooting, nor did 3 AA. I did not try 3 or 4 D batteries, mainly because I did not have battery holder. >> A capacitor or DC-DC booster will offer a more elegant solution. Or perhaps a combination of DC booster supplying a higher voltage to a capacitor. Mouser sells a 25volts 150000uF part number 647-LNR1E154MSE at a reasonable cost. Joe > > Yeah, a smaller capacitor charged to a higher voltage would probably do it too. The AA experiment obviously worked but even though their 'sag' under load did not torpedo the experiment, it's going to affect service life. Consider a 4xD as a soldered up pak with flying leads. I'm pretty sure this would give you a good service life . . . probably a couple of years as long as your airplane is not stored in a closed hangar under an Arizona sun. > > The dc to dc converter we looked at first set for a 12v output and driven from the downstream side of your starter button seems pretty elegant. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406922#406922 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2013
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com>
Several inputs suggested checking the connections on the leads coming from the alternator, and checking the system ground connections. I checked the faston-type alternator lead connections, which were clean and tight. I checked all of the ground connections, which were also tight. Yesterday I went up for a test flight and confirmed the symptoms under varying system loads. The normal system voltage with alternator on line is 13.8 volts, which is consistent with what others are reporting for the Rotax Ducati regulator. I see a max load of 10 amps with everything running, so I am satisfied that the total load is well within the standard Rotax system capacity. I also observed that the system voltage drops to 13.5 volts at the 10 amp max load, which seems abnormal. Under this max load, the alternator dropped out after a few minutes, indicated by system voltage dropping to around 12.5 volts -- consistent with fully charged lead-acid battery. When I reduced the load to 3 amps, which is my practical minimum (one Dynon display, radio and transponder), the alternator came back and stayed there, with system voltage at the normal regulator set point of 13.8 volts. I repeated this experiment a few times for various loads, finding that a total load above 5 or 6 amps will cause the alternator to drop out after a few minutes, and that it will come back when the load is reduced to 3 amps. I am pretty well convinced that my voltage regulator is bad. I did learn from comments on this issue that Van's includes a voltage regulator cooling kit with its lighting kit for the RV-12, consisting of a length of plastic tubing that connects from the air intake duct to a shroud over the regulator, providing a direct blast of cooling air to counteract the increased electrical load of the lighting. So there is certainly indication that the Ducati regulator is susceptible to overheating under load. The RV-12 regulator is on the engine side of the firewall, however, and mine is on the cabin side. At 10 amps with the regulator mounted in the cockpit environment, I'm thinking the regulator should be able to handle the load without supplemental cooling. Others have noted the not-so-good reputation of the Ducati regulator, but there are thousands of them in service on Rotax engines worldwide, so rather than tackle a reconfiguration of my regulator and wiring installation at this point , I ordered a replacement Ducati from Lockwood Aviation and will see how it goes. I also ordered a overvoltage protection module from B&C, since the Pipistrel electrical system does not include one. I'll install it with the new voltage regulator. I'll report my findings after installing the new regulator. Paul Kuntz On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Paul Kuntz wrote: > Thanks for the tips, everyone. I concur with Bob that my Ducati regulator > is done for and should be replaced. I will take a look at the > Schicke unit that Peter mentioned. > > Cheers, > Paul Kuntz > > > On Friday, August 9, 2013, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >> >> At 12:55 PM 8/9/2013, you wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the tip. I'll check this cooling shroud idea. I'm also >>> wondering if my regulator has already been compromised. Any opinions on >>> what my repeated fail/recover situation indicates? I would guess that it >>> cycled between failed and recovered 8 or 10 times before we established a >>> state where it stayed on line, limited to a total current draw of 3 amps. >>> >> >> If your regulator can't carry 10A without cooling, it's >> probably broke. A functional part should be capable of >> rated output for the alternator which is on the order >> of 18A. I've not heard of any mass-movements to forced >> air cool these regulators. >> >> >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
From: "mike>bentley" <mikeeeb(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2013
Looking for some advice. I have a Kitfox IV using an Icom A5 transceiver mounted on the panel. It has the ni-cad batter installed as well as connected to the ships power. It is connected to a Comant CI-122 antenna via RG400 cable. When I am in the vicinity of broadcast radio antennas or at a lower altitude over a city with broadcast antennas, I get a constant, fairly loud garbeled bleedover from their broadcast. Adjusting squelch doesn't help much. I can still transmit and receive ATC ok as it blanks out the bleedover. Any suggestions or topics that have already discussed this? Thanks Mike -------- Mike Bentley Joplin, MO N5498B Model 4-1200 (Flying) Jabiru 2200 Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads GT Prop Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406965#406965 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2013
Do you have an intercom too, or just the radio? --Daniel On Aug 18, 2013, at 11:38 AM, "mike>bentley" wrote: > > Looking for some advice. I have a Kitfox IV using an Icom A5 transceiver mounted on the panel. It has the ni-cad batter installed as well as connected to the ships power. It is connected to a Comant CI-122 antenna via RG400 cable. When I am in the vicinity of broadcast radio antennas or at a lower altitude over a city with broadcast antennas, I get a constant, fairly loud garbeled bleedover from their broadcast. Adjusting squelch doesn't help much. I can still transmit and receive ATC ok as it blanks out the bleedover. > > Any suggestions or topics that have already discussed this? > > Thanks > Mike > > -------- > Mike Bentley > Joplin, MO > N5498B > Model 4-1200 (Flying) > Jabiru 2200 > Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads > GT Prop > Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406965#406965 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
From: "mike>bentley" <mikeeeb(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2013
Yes. It runs through a Sigtronics SPO-22N intercom. -------- Mike Bentley Joplin, MO N5498B Model 4-1200 (Flying) Jabiru 2200 Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads GT Prop Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406970#406970 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2013
Have you experimented with that setup to see if the noise is possibly coming in through the intercom? Daniel On Aug 18, 2013, at 12:07 PM, "mike>bentley" wrote: > > Yes. It runs through a Sigtronics SPO-22N intercom. > > -------- > Mike Bentley > Joplin, MO > N5498B > Model 4-1200 (Flying) > Jabiru 2200 > Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads > GT Prop > Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406970#406970 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
From: "mike>bentley" <mikeeeb(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 18, 2013
I have not. I'll try it. I'll disconnect the intercom and hook up the headset straight out of the radio. -------- Mike Bentley Joplin, MO N5498B Model 4-1200 (Flying) Jabiru 2200 Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads GT Prop Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406978#406978 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2013
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Paul, As an aside, if your Pipistrel is certificated as an SLSA you must get a Letter of Authorization from the factory to make any changes to the aircraft. If you don't, your airplane airplane's certificate of compliance becomes void. If the factory won't give you a letter, your only option is to remove the change or take the aircraft ELSA. Rick Girard On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Paul Kuntz wrote: > Several inputs suggested checking the connections on the leads coming from > the alternator, and checking the system ground connections. I checked the > faston-type alternator lead connections, which were clean and tight. I > checked all of the ground connections, which were also tight. Yesterday I > went up for a test flight and confirmed the symptoms under varying system > loads. The normal system voltage with alternator on line is 13.8 volts, > which is consistent with what others are reporting for the Rotax Ducati > regulator. I see a max load of 10 amps with everything running, so I am > satisfied that the total load is well within the standard Rotax system > capacity. I also observed that the system voltage drops to 13.5 volts at > the 10 amp max load, which seems abnormal. Under this max load, the > alternator dropped out after a few minutes, indicated by system voltage > dropping to around 12.5 volts -- consistent with fully charged lead-acid > battery. > > When I reduced the load to 3 amps, which is my practical minimum (one > Dynon display, radio and transponder), the alternator came back and stayed > there, with system voltage at the normal regulator set point of 13.8 > volts. > > I repeated this experiment a few times for various loads, finding that a > total load above 5 or 6 amps will cause the alternator to drop out after a > few minutes, and that it will come back when the load is reduced to 3 > amps. > > I am pretty well convinced that my voltage regulator is bad. I did learn > from comments on this issue that Van's includes a voltage regulator cooling > kit with its lighting kit for the RV-12, consisting of a length of plastic > tubing that connects from the air intake duct to a shroud over the > regulator, providing a direct blast of cooling air to counteract the > increased electrical load of the lighting. So there is certainly > indication that the Ducati regulator is susceptible to overheating under > load. The RV-12 regulator is on the engine side of the firewall, however, > and mine is on the cabin side. At 10 amps with the regulator mounted in > the cockpit environment, I'm thinking the regulator should be able to > handle the load without supplemental cooling. Others have noted the > not-so-good reputation of the Ducati regulator, but there are thousands of > them in service on Rotax engines worldwide, so rather than tackle a > reconfiguration of my regulator and wiring installation at this point , I > ordered a replacement Ducati from Lockwood Aviation and will see how it > goes. I also ordered a overvoltage protection module from B&C, since the > Pipistrel electrical system does not include one. I'll install it with the > new voltage regulator. > > I'll report my findings after installing the new regulator. > > Paul Kuntz > > > On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Paul Kuntz wrote: > >> Thanks for the tips, everyone. I concur with Bob that my Ducati >> regulator is done for and should be replaced. I will take a look at the >> Schicke unit that Peter mentioned. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul Kuntz >> >> >> On Friday, August 9, 2013, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >>> >>> At 12:55 PM 8/9/2013, you wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks for the tip. I'll check this cooling shroud idea. I'm also >>>> wondering if my regulator has already been compromised. Any opinions on >>>> what my repeated fail/recover situation indicates? I would guess that it >>>> cycled between failed and recovered 8 or 10 times before we established a >>>> state where it stayed on line, limited to a total current draw of 3 amps. >>>> >>> >>> If your regulator can't carry 10A without cooling, it's >>> probably broke. A functional part should be capable of >>> rated output for the alternator which is on the order >>> of 18A. I've not heard of any mass-movements to forced >>> air cool these regulators. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> ====**==============================**= >>> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/** >>> Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>> ====**==============================**= >>> http://forums.matronics.com >>> ====**==============================**= >>> le, List Admin. >>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/**contribution >>> ====**==============================**= >>> >>> >>> >>> > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2013
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com>
Correct, Rick, but mine is built from a kit and licensed as Experimental Amateur-Built, so I am not bound by the SLSA restrictions. That's one of the main reasons I wanted to go the EAB route. Regards, Paul On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > Paul, As an aside, if your Pipistrel is certificated as an SLSA you must > get a Letter of Authorization from the factory to make any changes to the > aircraft. If you don't, your airplane airplane's certificate of compliance > becomes void. If the factory won't give you a letter, your only option is > to remove the change or take the aircraft ELSA. > > Rick Girard > > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Paul Kuntz wrote: > >> Several inputs suggested checking the connections on the leads coming >> from the alternator, and checking the system ground connections. I checked >> the faston-type alternator lead connections, which were clean and tight. I >> checked all of the ground connections, which were also tight. Yesterday I >> went up for a test flight and confirmed the symptoms under varying system >> loads. The normal system voltage with alternator on line is 13.8 volts, >> which is consistent with what others are reporting for the Rotax Ducati >> regulator. I see a max load of 10 amps with everything running, so I am >> satisfied that the total load is well within the standard Rotax system >> capacity. I also observed that the system voltage drops to 13.5 volts at >> the 10 amp max load, which seems abnormal. Under this max load, the >> alternator dropped out after a few minutes, indicated by system voltage >> dropping to around 12.5 volts -- consistent with fully charged lead-acid >> battery. >> >> When I reduced the load to 3 amps, which is my practical minimum (one >> Dynon display, radio and transponder), the alternator came back and stayed >> there, with system voltage at the normal regulator set point of 13.8 >> volts. >> >> I repeated this experiment a few times for various loads, finding that a >> total load above 5 or 6 amps will cause the alternator to drop out after a >> few minutes, and that it will come back when the load is reduced to 3 >> amps. >> >> I am pretty well convinced that my voltage regulator is bad. I did learn >> from comments on this issue that Van's includes a voltage regulator cooling >> kit with its lighting kit for the RV-12, consisting of a length of plastic >> tubing that connects from the air intake duct to a shroud over the >> regulator, providing a direct blast of cooling air to counteract the >> increased electrical load of the lighting. So there is certainly >> indication that the Ducati regulator is susceptible to overheating under >> load. The RV-12 regulator is on the engine side of the firewall, however, >> and mine is on the cabin side. At 10 amps with the regulator mounted in >> the cockpit environment, I'm thinking the regulator should be able to >> handle the load without supplemental cooling. Others have noted the >> not-so-good reputation of the Ducati regulator, but there are thousands of >> them in service on Rotax engines worldwide, so rather than tackle a >> reconfiguration of my regulator and wiring installation at this point , I >> ordered a replacement Ducati from Lockwood Aviation and will see how it >> goes. I also ordered a overvoltage protection module from B&C, since the >> Pipistrel electrical system does not include one. I'll install it with the >> new voltage regulator. >> >> I'll report my findings after installing the new regulator. >> >> Paul Kuntz >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Paul Kuntz wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the tips, everyone. I concur with Bob that my Ducati >>> regulator is done for and should be replaced. I will take a look at the >>> Schicke unit that Peter mentioned. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Paul Kuntz >>> >>> >>> On Friday, August 9, 2013, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> >>>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >>>> >>>> At 12:55 PM 8/9/2013, you wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks for the tip. I'll check this cooling shroud idea. I'm also >>>>> wondering if my regulator has already been compromised. Any opinions on >>>>> what my repeated fail/recover situation indicates? I would guess that it >>>>> cycled between failed and recovered 8 or 10 times before we established a >>>>> state where it stayed on line, limited to a total current draw of 3 amps. >>>>> >>>> >>>> If your regulator can't carry 10A without cooling, it's >>>> probably broke. A functional part should be capable of >>>> rated output for the alternator which is on the order >>>> of 18A. I've not heard of any mass-movements to forced >>>> air cool these regulators. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bob . . . >>>> >>>> ====**==============================**= >>>> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/** >>>> Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>>> ====**==============================**= >>>> http://forums.matronics.com >>>> ====**==============================**= >>>> le, List Admin. >>>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/**contribution >>>> ====**==============================**= >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> * >> >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. > - Groucho Marx > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 08/18/13
Date: Aug 19, 2013
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August, ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
From: "Martymason" <captainmarty(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Aug 19, 2013
Mike, Your VHF transceiver is amplitude modulated. AM radio is of course amplitude modulated. Broadcast AM stations transmit at 250 to 50,000 watts. Your receiver will detect signals in the low milliwatts. In early days of commercial radio a diode and earphone was all many people used to get reception. That said, look for the interference getting in your earphones through a corroded connection. It can be in a ground or power or signal connection. The corrosion doesn't have to be obvious. Just dissimilar. The intercom might be another entry point. Perhaps a connection from another audio input. Hope this helps. Marty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407038#407038 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
From: "mike>bentley" <mikeeeb(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 19, 2013
I'll have to check all that out when I get back from this trip. Thanks for the input everyone. I'll let you know what happens. -------- Mike Bentley Joplin, MO N5498B Model 4-1200 (Flying) Jabiru 2200 Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads GT Prop Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407056#407056 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: High voltage AC and faston
Date: Aug 19, 2013
Hi Bob, We have a discussion at work regarding the suitability of Faston connectors used for high voltage AC systems in mobile applications.? All the best Jan http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Hi Bob,

We have a discussion at work regarding the suitability of Faston connectors used for high voltage AC systems in mobile applications.?

All the best

Jan

________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2013
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: High voltage AC and faston
Yes - they are acceptable for 120/240 volt applications.- I think they ha ve a voltage rating of at least 300 volts.=0A=0AWhat is your high AC voltag e mobile application?=0A=0A=0AJeff Luckey=0A=0A=0A_________________________ _______=0A From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matro nics.com =0ASent: Monday, August 19, 2013 2:13 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-L ist: High voltage AC and faston=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AHi Bob ,=0A-=0AWe have a discussion at work regarding the suitability=0Aof Faston connectors used fo r high voltage AC systems in mobile applications.?=0A-=0AAll the best=0A == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
At 08:42 PM 8/17/2013, you wrote: > >Bob, >Thanks for the advice. >I will use 4 AA batteries temporarily and order a DC-DC booster for >a long term solution. Do you think that the DC-DC converter will >come alive and boost the voltage before the starter contactor >energizes the starter motor? >Electronics should be faster than a mechanical device. Yes, the push button simultaneously applies power to the starter contactor and input to the dc-dc converter. The contactor has a pull-in delay on hte order of 5-10 milliseconds . . . plenty of time for the dc-dc converter to wake up. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
> I see a max load of 10 amps with everything running, so I am > satisfied that the total load is well within the standard Rotax > system capacity. I also observed that the system voltage drops to > 13.5 volts at the 10 amp max load, which seems abnormal. Under > this max load, the alternator dropped out after a few minutes, > indicated by system voltage dropping to around 12.5 volts -- > consistent with fully charged lead-acid battery. The symptoms you observed suggest a temperature sensitive failure mode within the regulator . . . like a connection that opens when the regulator warms up. While a cooling system MIGHT mask this failure, it wouldn't necessarily be a case of overheating beyond rated operating temperatures rather a case of an intermittent connection that is temperature sensitive. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2013
Subject: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out
From: Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com>
Thanks for the input, Bob. Your guess is in line with my own thinking and is consistent with the symptoms. The failure mode seems to be something that was in need of the first long-duration steady load to surface, and then became more consistent over the following several flight hours. I'm optimistic that replacing the regulator will provide a fix without having to make other changes. Paul Kuntz On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 7:52 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**> > > > I see a max load of 10 amps with everything running, so I am satisfied >> that the total load is well within the standard Rotax system capacity. I >> also observed that the system voltage drops to 13.5 volts at the 10 amp max >> load, which seems abnormal. Under this max load, the alternator dropped >> out after a few minutes, indicated by system voltage dropping to around >> 12.5 volts -- consistent with fully charged lead-acid battery. >> > > > The symptoms you observed suggest a temperature sensitive > failure mode within the regulator . . . like a connection > that opens when the regulator warms up. While a cooling > system MIGHT mask this failure, it wouldn't necessarily > be a case of overheating beyond rated operating temperatures > rather a case of an intermittent connection that is > temperature sensitive. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
The demodulation of an AM signal can occur in any non-linear resistance where the radio signal carrier is 'mixed' with the side band energy to produce a carrier +/- SB products which are the audio program material. The necessary non-linearity can be found in a poorly made-up joint where corrosion products behave like a crude rectifier or crystal junction (rusty razor blades have been used to fabricate "fox-hole radio" detectors). To be sure, the resulting audio signals are very tiny . . . largely determined by the Q of the 'tuner', length of antenna, quality of the ground, electrical sensitivity of the transducer (head set) and skill of designer/fabricator for optimizing impedance matches. It has been readily demonstrated that an artfully crafted 'crystal set' can perform rather well and receive even overseas short wave broadcasts. The kind of performance was never demonstrated in the typical crystal set kits and/or merit badge construction projects. Emacs! If one is into SERIOUS crystal radio fabrication for optimized performance, the lowly battery-less radio is likely to appear more like this . . . Emacs! Separate tuners and traps wound with Litz wire, Schottky detectors, and matching transformer to optimize coupling of energy to the headphones. The radio above was a Dx contest winner for the builder. The 'crystal set' that plagues the aircraft audio system has antennas that are too short, tuners of un-measurably low Q, and headset not known for electromechanical efficiency. Hence, the un-welcomed demodulation of AM radio signals is rare . . . often presented when a coax antenna feeder shield becomes disconnected at a connector and the cockpit is flooded with RF from the ship's VHF comm transmitter. This configuration manifests in a feedback squeal only when transmitting. The last time I heard AM demodulation in an aircraft radio was when taxiing about 1/4 mile away from the airport's air traffic control radar. Each sweep of the antenna put short bursts of PRF 'buzz' in the headset as the airplane was painted with high energy RF. Sensitivity to terrestrial AM transmitters is rare. This case (and that presented by the radar) probably has a root cause in poor design of an input stage to an amplifier. The first stage of a microphone amplifier or isolation amplifier input is not effectively filtered for RF suppression. The strong local signal drives the first stage transistor base into non-linear operation and demodulates the signal which is then amplified by downstream electronics. It's improbable (but not impossible) that a corroded joint is root cause. You need to troubleshoot the system to deduce which of the ship's black boxes is affected. I doubt that it is the radio . . . my bet is on the intercom. Shielding wires for affected devices sometimes helps but it's a poor bandaid . . . the elegant fix is usually addition of a capacitor and perhaps and inductor filter to the input circuit of the affected device. Let us know what your findings are as to which device is victim to the high energy RF signals. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: High voltage AC and faston
Date: Aug 20, 2013
Mobile power generators - I was told that using Faston for AC application was not a good thing due to the line frequency .. i.e. alternating current causing "vibration" in the connector .. I can not see the issue with using a faston connector in this application, providing a quality faston is used - Not a poor quality Chinese copy. I was wondering if aircraft used them in high voltage AC applications ... _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey Sent: 20 August 2013 01:47 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston Yes - they are acceptable for 120/240 volt applications. I think they have a voltage rating of at least 300 volts. What is your high AC voltage mobile application? Jeff Luckey _____ From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 2:13 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston Hi Bob , We have a discussion at work regarding the suitability of Faston connectors used for high voltage AC systems in mobile applications.? All the best Jan <="" font=""> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Mobile power generators – I was told that using Faston for AC application was not a good thing due to the line frequency .. i.e. alternating current causing “vibration” in the connector .. I can not see the issue with using a faston connector in this application, providing a quality faston is used – Not a poor quality Chinese copy.

I was wondering if aircraft used them in high voltage AC applications …

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey
Sent: 20 August 2013 01:47
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston

Yes - they are acceptable for 120/240 volt applications. I think they have a voltage rating of at least 300 volts.

What is your high AC voltage mobile application?

Jeff Luckey

From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 2:13 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston

Hi Bob ,

We have a discussion at work regarding the suitability of Faston connectors used for high voltage AC systems in mobile applications.?

All the best

Jan

<="&qu ot; font="">

http://www .matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/ contribution

________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 08/19/13
Date: Aug 20, 2013
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2013
From: Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 20, 2013
> It has been readily demonstrated that an artfully > crafted 'crystal set' can perform rather well and receive > even overseas short wave broadcasts. The kind of performance > was never demonstrated in the typical crystal set kits and/or > merit badge construction projects....Bob Indeed. In WWI soldiers had no problem building "Trench Radios" out of anything imaginable. A lump of anthracite coal made a dandy detector. Metal sheets between the pages of a book worked well for capacitors. Air-spaced coils were woven like baskets out of any available wire. Wrapping a few nails with the finest enameled wire one could get and stuffing them into a food tin worked for a headphone. Of course they had a) Time and b) Giant spark-gap code transmitters a mile away. They still make good science projects. For high frequencies, joint corrosion is a concern. Surgeons use high-frequency devices to cut and cauterize surgical patients, but the slightest DC component will make the patient's muscles jump. Corroded joints are a frequent problem because the rectify the HF into DC. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407100#407100 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2013
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: High voltage AC and faston
=0A"..I was told=0Athat using Faston for AC application was not a good thin g due to the line=0Afrequency .. i.e. alternating current causing =9C vibration=9D in the=0Aconnector .."=0A=0AI don't know about that one. ..=C2- =0A=0A=0AI've never heard of that and it sounds=0Alike an "old wiv es tale".=C2- =0A=0A=0AThe Fast-on connectors are used =0A=0Aubiquitously in all kinds of=C2- things =0A=0Alike appliances.=C2- Look inside a=0A refrigerator, washing machine, dryer,=0Afurnace, air conditioner, etc.=C2 - All AC=0Amachines that have a fair amount=0Aof mechanical vibration.=C2 - You will=0Asee lots of Fast-ons.=0A=0A=0AAs you said, stay with high-qu ality=0Aconnectors from T&B or Amp=0A=0Aand crimp properly.=0A=0AI've never worked on 400hz aircraft=0Asystems so I have no direct knowledge=0Aof whet her Fast-ons are used for =0A=0Athat application - but I don't think=0Afreq uency is a factor.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: jan =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, August 19, 2013 10:54 PM=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: High vo ltage AC and faston=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AMobile power generators =93 I was told=0Athat using Faston for AC application was not a good thing due to th e line=0Afrequency .. i.e. alternating current causing =9Cvibration =9D in the=0Aconnector ..=C2- I can not see the issue with using a faston connector in this=0Aapplication, providing a quality faston is used =93 Not a poor quality Chinese=0Acopy.=0A=C2-=0AI was wondering if aircraft used them in=0Ahigh voltage AC applications =C2-=0A=C2 -=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:owner-aeroelectric-lis t-server(at)matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.c om] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey=0ASent: 20 August 2013 01:47=0ATo: aeroelectri c-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List:=0AHigh voltage AC an d faston=0A=C2-=0AYes - they=0Aare acceptable for 120/240 volt applicatio ns.=C2- I think they have a voltage=0Arating of at least 300 volts.=0A=0A What is your high AC voltage mobile application?=0A=C2-=0AJeff Luckey=0A =0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:jan=0A=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, August 19, 2013 2 :13=0APM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: High=0Avoltage AC and faston=0A=C2 -=0AHi Bob ,=0A=C2-=0AWe have a discussion at work regarding the suitab ility of Faston=0Aconnectors used for high voltage AC systems in mobile app lications.?=0A=C2-=0AAll the best=0A=C2-=0AJan=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A<= "" font="">=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigat or?AeroElectric-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: High voltage AC and faston
Date: Aug 20, 2013
Thanks Jeff I totally agree with you .. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey Sent: 20 August 2013 17:35 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston "..I was told that using Faston for AC application was not a good thing due to the line frequency .. i.e. alternating current causing "vibration" in the connector .." I don't know about that one... I've never heard of that and it sounds like an "old wives tale". The Fast-on connectors are used ubiquitously in all kinds of things like appliances. Look inside a refrigerator, washing machine, dryer, furnace, air conditioner, etc. All AC machines that have a fair amount of mechanical vibration. You will see lots of Fast-ons. As you said, stay with high-quality connectors from T&B or Amp and crimp properly. I've never worked on 400hz aircraft systems so I have no direct knowledge of whether Fast-ons are used for that application - but I don't think frequency is a factor. _____ From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 10:54 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston Mobile power generators - I was told that using Faston for AC application was not a good thing due to the line frequency .. i.e. alternating current causing "vibration" in the connector .. I can not see the issue with using a faston connector in this application, providing a quality faston is used - Not a poor quality Chinese copy. I was wondering if aircraft used them in high voltage AC applications ... _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey Sent: 20 August 2013 01:47 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston Yes - they are acceptable for 120/240 volt applications. I think they have a voltage rating of at least 300 volts. What is your high AC voltage mobile application? Jeff Luckey _____ From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 2:13 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston Hi Bob , We have a discussion at work regarding the suitability of Faston connectors used for high voltage AC systems in mobile applications.? All the best Jan <="" font=""> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution --> http://www.matronics.com/con=============== Forum - Chat, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Thanks Jeff

I totally agree with you ..

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey
Sent: 20 August 2013 17:35
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston

"..I was told that using Faston for AC application was not a good thing due to the line frequency .. i.e. alternating current causing “vibration” in the connector .."

I don't know about that one...

I've never heard of that and it sounds

like an "old wives tale".

The Fast-on connectors are used

ubiquitously in all kinds of things

like appliances. Look inside a

refrigerator, washing machine, dryer,

furnace, air conditioner, etc. All AC

machines that have a fair amount

of mechanical vibration. You will

see lots of Fast-ons.

As you said, stay with high-quality

connectors from T&B or Amp

and crimp properly.

I've never worked on 400hz aircraft

systems so I have no direct knowledge

of whether Fast-ons are used for

that application - but I don't think

frequency is a factor.

From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 10:54 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston

Mobile power generators – I was told that using Faston for AC application was not a good thing due to the line frequency .. i.e. alternating current causing “vibration” in the connector .. I can not see the issue with using a faston connector in this application, providing a quality faston is used – Not a poor quality Chinese copy.

I was wondering if aircraft used them in high voltage AC applications …

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey
Sent: 20 August 2013 01:47
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston

Yes - they are acceptable for 120/240 volt applications. I think they have a voltage rating of at least 300 volts.

What is your high AC voltage mobile application?

Jeff Luckey

From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 2:13 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: High voltage AC and faston

Hi Bob ,

We have a discussion at work regarding the suitability of Faston connectors used for high voltage AC systems in mobile applications.?

All the best

Jan

<="" font="">

http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.ma tronics.com
http://www.matro nics.com/contribution

--> http://www.matronics.com/con= ===============

http://www .matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/ contribution

________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 20, 2013
> The contactor has a pull-in > delay on hte order of 5-10 milliseconds . . . > plenty of time for the dc-dc converter to > wake up. > Thanks Bob -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407131#407131 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Motorcycle Charging Systems
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 21, 2013
The following appeared today on the Yahoo group for Aerovee engines, in resp onse to someone having electrical problems. With the recent conversation he re regarding Ducati regulators, I thought a repost might be useful. How a Motorcycle Charging System Works: http://bit.ly/16MlshD Fault Finding Flowchart for Motorcycle Charging Systems: http://bit.ly/1as0l CC Happy troubleshooting, Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 22, 2013
Most supercap designs seem targeted to electric vehicles or locomotives. Here is one to keep the Dynon from rebooting during starting. Bob N knows a hundred times more than I do about the Dynon, but this design should work, or at the very least provide a starting place for one that will by adding more caps. This design is for 12V, but a higher voltage design is easy, too. The advantage of this design is that it is about the size of a pack of chewing gum and cost about $30. It is easy to build on a perf-board. Add your own features as you like. How it works: Ordinarily the power is fed through the DS1 to the Dynon Power Input. The DS2 supplies power to charge the supercaps through current limiter R1. each supercap is about .25" high X .800" diameter. Since they are in series, the stack is actually only 250,000 uF X 20V max. R2-5 are voltage equilizers and draw 30 mA. R1 dissipates 25W initially when charging the supercaps. When the bus slumps below the charge voltage of the supercaps, current flows through DS3 to supply the required power, then gets recharged as above. BDZ is a bidirectional Zener to keep the Schottkys healthy, but it is optional. You might want a 3A solid state fuse in the input. Good luck. Note that this design is experimental and has not been tested. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407286#407286 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/supercap_brownout_preventer_772.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 22, 2013
Thanks Eric. I have already ordered the DC to DC booster from eBay (China). If that does not work out, I will build your circuit. Since the Dynon normally is powered through a separate terminal, I believe that DS-1 can be eliminated and DS-3 can be shorted. Since this circuit will only be needed for less than a second during engine start, does R1 need to have such a high wattage rating? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407298#407298 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 23, 2013
> Since the Dynon normally is powered through a separate terminal, I believe that DS-1 can be eliminated and DS-3 can be shorted. Since this circuit will only be needed for less than a second during engine start, does R1 need to have such a high wattage rating? > Joe Joe, I think DS1 and 3 are needed. Bob? Does R1 need to be 35W? This is a TO-220 resistor, so it's pretty small. When the circuit is first charged (or after sitting) the capacitor current is a dead short. So no, 35W is excessive, but it has to be high wattage. 1.4A x 1.4A x 10 W. You might get by with a lot smaller part. Make sure you note that Bob N. pointed out that the Supercaps needed to be pulse rated, so I've changed them. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407385#407385 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 23, 2013
Thanks Eric This circuit might have to be powered on when ever the D-180 is on (instead of through the start swtch) in order to give the capacitors time to charge. According to an online time constant calculator, it could take up to 2.5 seconds. http://easycalculation.com/engineering/electrical/capacitor-energy-rc-time-constant.php -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407391#407391 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2013
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: AMP Crimper Refurb?
=0AI just ran across an old, rusty AMP 59824-1 crimping tool.- Its action is kinda gummed-up and needs a little TLC. =0A=0A=0ACan someone recommend a Tool Repair company that could put this tool back into working condition for a reasonable price?=0A=0AOr, maybe an exploded-view drawing.- I might attempt to fix it myself if I had a little counseling & guidance ;)=0A=0A =0ATIA,=0A=0A-Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Greetings, I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated with startupof the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to the touch wherewire goes under the screw. My thought is to run increasing current through until it tripsbut I don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions. I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the breaker. Thanks, -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Date: Aug 24, 2013
Try swapping the wire to another breaker to see if the problem follows, stay same or goes away. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayj Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:26 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: OT: bad circuit breaker? Greetings, I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated with startup of the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to the touch where wire goes under the screw. My thought is to run increasing current through until it trips but I don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions. I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the breaker. Thanks, -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: OT: bad circuit breaker?
I put a new breaker in and started watching the system. Turns out that the A/C current draw starts at about 6amps and slowly climbs to about 18amps and then the compressor shuts off. I assumed it was the thermostat shutting off the compressor. Turns out that the only time the breaker was tripping was if the 2nd compressorstarted/was onwhen the A/C load crept high enough to make the combined load trip the breaker, and before the A/C was shut down by the internal over current protection. So, question solved. Thanks Bevan. Next question, why is the load caused by the A/C creeping up,and more importantly, what can be done to correct the cause? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 08/24/2013 06:46 PM, B Tomm wrote: > Try swapping the wire to another breaker to see if the problem > follows, stay same or goes away. > Bevan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *rayj > *Sent:* Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:26 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: OT: bad circuit breaker? > > Greetings, > > I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. > It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max > load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a > small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated > with startupof the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to > the touch wherewire goes under the screw. > > My thought is to run increasing current through until it tripsbut I > don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought > about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the > effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions. > > I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient > event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the > breaker. > > Thanks, > -- > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2013
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: OT: bad circuit breaker?
What he said. :-) Seriously, if the terminal is getting hot & you're confident that there's no corrosion & the screw was tight, it's a strong indicator that the internal contacts have high resistance & the resulting heat is tripping the thermal protection in the breaker. Try comparing the resistance to a known-good breaker (with both outside the panel, of course). If they are both good, it should be difficult to get a measurement on either with a normal ohm meter. Charlie On 08/24/2013 06:46 PM, B Tomm wrote: > Try swapping the wire to another breaker to see if the problem > follows, stay same or goes away. > Bevan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *rayj > *Sent:* Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:26 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: OT: bad circuit breaker? > > Greetings, > > I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. > It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max > load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a > small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated > with startupof the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to > the touch wherewire goes under the screw. > > My thought is to run increasing current through until it tripsbut I > don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought > about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the > effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions. > > I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient > event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the > breaker. > > Thanks, > -- > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Date: Aug 24, 2013
I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated with startup of the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to the touch where wire goes under the screw. My thought is to run increasing current through until it trips but I don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions. I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the breaker. First of all, Was the wire screwed down tight in the breaker and no corrosion present. That being the case, is there another 20 A breaker in the box? If so, swap the breakers and see if you still have the problem. I would discourage using a bucket of salt water!!! Very dangerous!!! Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Date: Aug 24, 2013
Next question, why is the load caused by the A/C creeping up,and more importantly, what can be done to correct the cause? As the pressure goes up in the tank the compresser has to work harder to push more air into the tank, thus more load on the motor and a higher current draw. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Checked the questionable breaker against a new one, same resistance. I'm pretty sure the breaker is good after further investigationof the system in question. I laid out my new problem in another email. Thanks Charlie. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 08/24/2013 07:16 PM, Charlie England wrote: > What he said. :-) Seriously, if the terminal is getting hot & you're > confident that there's no corrosion & the screw was tight, it's a > strong indicator that the internal contacts have high resistance & the > resulting heat is tripping the thermal protection in the breaker. Try > comparing the resistance to a known-good breaker (with both outside > the panel, of course). If they are both good, it should be difficult > to get a measurement on either with a normal ohm meter. > > Charlie > > On 08/24/2013 06:46 PM, B Tomm wrote: >> Try swapping the wire to another breaker to see if the problem >> follows, stay same or goes away. >> Bevan >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *rayj >> *Sent:* Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:26 PM >> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: OT: bad circuit breaker? >> >> Greetings, >> >> I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. >> It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max >> load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a >> small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated >> with startupof the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to >> the touch wherewire goes under the screw. >> >> My thought is to run increasing current through until it tripsbut I >> don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought >> about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth >> the effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions. >> >> I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient >> event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the >> breaker. >> >> Thanks, >> -- >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >> * >> * >> >> >> * > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Sorry if I haven't been clear. The compressor is in an air conditioner and comes to full load in a very short time. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 08/24/2013 07:39 PM, Roger & Jean wrote: > Next question, why is the load caused by the A/C creeping up,and more > importantly, what can be done to correct the cause? > > As the pressure goes up in the tank the compresser has to work > harder to push more air into the tank, thus more load on the motor > and a higher current draw. > Roger > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2013
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Almost too many options to guess. Got a clamp on amp meter? Monitor current on the compressor line & the fan motor line. Which one is going too high? On 08/24/2013 08:14 PM, rayj wrote: > Sorry if I haven't been clear. The compressor is in an air conditioner > and comes to full load in a very short time. > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > On 08/24/2013 07:39 PM, Roger & Jean wrote: >> Next question, why is the load caused by the A/C creeping up,and more >> importantly, what can be done to correct the cause? >> >> As the pressure goes up in the tank the compresser has to work >> harder to push more air into the tank, thus more load on the >> motor and a higher current draw. >> Roger >> >> * >> >> >> * > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: OT: bad circuit breaker?
I've got the unit out. I'll check, but I'm willing to bet it's the compressor. I can't imagine the fan consuming that much energy and not self destructing. And something resets after a short while and the cycle starts over. Thanks for the help. If I figure anything outI'll postit. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 08/24/2013 08:44 PM, Charlie England wrote: > Almost too many options to guess. Got a clamp on amp meter? Monitor > current on the compressor line & the fan motor line. Which one is > going too high? > > On 08/24/2013 08:14 PM, rayj wrote: >> Sorry if I haven't been clear. The compressor is in an air >> conditioner and comes to full load in a very short time. >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> On 08/24/2013 07:39 PM, Roger & Jean wrote: >>> Next question, why is the load caused by the A/C creeping up,and >>> more importantly, what can be done to correct the cause? >>> >>> As the pressure goes up in the tank the compresser has to work >>> harder to push more air into the tank, thus more load on the >>> motor and a higher current draw. >>> Roger >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> >> * >> >> >> * > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RGent1224(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 25, 2013
Subject: Re: AMP Crimper Refurb?
googled AMP 59824-1 crimping tool. and lookie at what I found If this attachment doesn't come thru to you send me a private e-mail and I'll send it to you By the way this is PDF so it can be slow to load Dick In a message dated 8/24/2013 5:28:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jluckey(at)pacbell.net writes: AMP 59824-1 crimping tool. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OT: bad circuit breaker?
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 25, 2013
There is a surefire trick that they used to use in the Navy. Toss the device off the stern of the ship into a couple miles of seawater. If it floats it is no good. Then go buy a new one. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407455#407455 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AMP Crimper Refurb?
At 05:25 PM 8/24/2013, you wrote: >I just ran across an old, rusty AMP 59824-1 crimping tool. Its >action is kinda gummed-up and needs a little TLC. > >Can someone recommend a Tool Repair company that could put this tool >back into working condition for a reasonable price? > >Or, maybe an exploded-view drawing. I might attempt to fix it >myself if I had a little counseling & guidance ;) > >TIA, > >-Jeff Take care lest you put more $labor$ into a clean-up effort than it takes to buy one in good working condition. The only CRITICAL functions are die closures, smoothness of the die pressure areas and good order in the ratchet mechanism. Try dousing the thing with WD40 and then 'work' the tool. If it does good crimps, then perhaps the best return on investment is to leave it's 'character' intact and chalk it up to a hard but not debilitating life. These tools probably don't have an official refurbishment manual . . . a manual for this kind of tool would probably be limited to disassemble, clean, reassemble and lubricate. I doubt that even the factory offers refurb services any more . . . the 'factory' is probably off shore and the costs of down time, shipping, overhaul labor is many times greater than any repair parts that might be needed. I'd oil it, blow it out, see if it produces attractive crimps and either (1) add it to the tool box or (2) offer a respectful trip into the recyclable steel bin. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AMP Crimper Refurb?
At 12:45 AM 8/25/2013, you wrote: >googled AMP 59824-1 crimping tool. and lookie at what I found >If this attachment doesn't come thru to you send me a private e-mail >and I'll send it to you By the way this is PDF so it can be slow to load >Dick > >In a message dated 8/24/2013 5:28:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >jluckey(at)pacbell.net writes: >AMP 59824-1 crimping tool. COOL! If anyone would offer the information, it would have to be AMP. Let us know what you've learned from your endeavors with this tool. . . especially the availability and price of any parts you may decide to replace. I sent an AMP tool back to a factory refurb service back about 1965 . . . my $25 t-head refugee from a salvage yard cost $75 to 'refurbish' but I have no idea what, if any, parts were replaced I still have the tool. It would be interesting to know what the same exchange of fees for goods and services would cost today. You may have an opportunity to add to universe of knowledge here . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Aug 26, 2013
This has been an interesting thread from the IT perspective . . . not all posts to the thread showed up in my mailbox but did appear in the matronics browser app for list access. I didn't get Eric's corrected drawing link . . . In this particular discussion for supplying power t the Dynon's external backup input pin, we're told that this pin is loaded ONLY IF adequate power is not available from the normal power input pin -OR- an internal battery. In this case, DS1 could be eliminated (open) and DS3 replaced with a short. If this circuit were used to buffer the one and only power input pin to a brownout sensitive appliance, then a path for steady state power at normal operating currents is needed . . . you couldn't power the device continuously through the DS2/R1 pathway. Many power resistors have 'pulsed' current ratings that can be quite large compared to the steady state dissipation for the device . . . but it's highly dependent upon THERMAL connection between the resistive element, thermal mass and ambient. I've studied some wire-wound resistors that were pretty disappointing for surge rating . . . others that were happily capable of considerable short-term abuse. You have to study the data sheets for the specific products. Generally speaking, resistors with flat surfaces that bolt to a chassis (thermal mass) will have pretty good pulse ratings . . . wire leaded devices that hang out in the breeze not so good. The data sheet for these devices http://tinyurl.com/msjo2va . . . says you can hit them with 2x rated power for 5 seconds so this resistor would probably be fine as a 20W. At the same time, since we're not intending that this circuit charge rapidly in response to a starter-push button, the charging resistance could probably be raised by a factor of 2 without affecting circuit performance while reducing dissipated power by 75% in increasing capacitor charging time. Since the design goal being considered is to support a piece of equipment that has already been ON long enough to boot up and offer data, then the increase in time to charge the brown-out support is not significant. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407501#407501 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2013
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: AMP Crimper Refurb?
Based on Dick's finding the Instruction Sheet, I was then able to look-up t he price of a Refurb Kit, ~$240 (ouch!).=0A=0ANow another question:- How does this tool compare to the $40 crimpers that B&C sells?=0A=0ASome criter ia:=0A1. I'm not using the tool in a production environment.- I'll probab ly build & repair a couple of airplanes in my life time.=0A2. @ $40 per uni t for the B&C tool, I could buy 6 of them for the cost of 1 refurbishment k it=0A=0AI will follow Bob's suggestion, below, and report back.=0A=0A=0ATha nks to Dick & Bob,=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0ATo: a eroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, August 26, 2013 6:23 AM=0AS ubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AMP Crimper Refurb?=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectri c-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect ric.com>=0A=0AAt 05:25 PM 8/24/2013, you wrote:=0A=0A> I just ran across an old, rusty AMP 59824-1 crimping tool.- Its action is kinda gummed-up and needs a little TLC.=0A> =0A> Can someone recommend a Tool Repair company t hat could put this tool back into working condition for a reasonable price? =0A> =0A> Or, maybe an exploded-view drawing.- I might attempt to fix it myself if I had a little counseling & guidance ;)=0A> =0A> TIA,=0A> =0A> -J eff=0A=0A- Take care lest you put more $labor$ into=0A- a clean-up ef fort than it takes to buy one=0A- in good working condition. The only CR ITICAL=0A- functions are die closures, smoothness of the=0A- die pres sure areas and good order in the=0A- ratchet mechanism.=0A=0A- Try do using the thing with WD40 and then=0A- 'work' the tool. If it does good crimps,=0A- then perhaps the best return on investment=0A- is to leav e it's 'character' intact and=0A- chalk it up to a hard but not debilita ting=0A- life.=0A=0A- These tools probably don't have an official=0A - refurbishment manual . . . a manual for=0A- this kind of tool would probably be limited to=0A- disassemble, clean, reassemble and lubricate .=0A- I doubt that even the factory offers refurb=0A- services any mo re . . . the 'factory' is=0A- probably off shore and the costs of down =0A- time, shipping, overhaul labor is many times=0A- greater than an y repair parts that might be=0A- needed.=0A=0A- I'd oil it, blow it o ut, see if it produces=0A- attractive crimps and either (1) add it=0A- to the tool box or (2) offer a respectful=0A- trip into the recyclable =========================0A - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Adm ===== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AMP Crimper Refurb?
At 10:51 AM 8/26/2013, you wrote: >Based on Dick's finding the Instruction Sheet, I was then able to >look-up the price of a Refurb Kit, ~$240 (ouch!). > >Now another question: How does this tool compare to the $40 >crimpers that B&C sells? See http://tinyurl.com/kfk6jss Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 26, 2013
It turns out that it really is a "Failed brownout battery experiment". After flying for several hours and starting the engine several times, there no longer is any brownout protection because (I assume) the 4 AA batteries have run down. I checked the batteries (no load) with a voltmeter: 1.4 volts each. I removed the AA batteries from the airplane so they will not cause any problems. I will await delivery of the DC-DC voltage booster that I ordered from eBay. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407547#407547 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 26, 2013
I just placed a Digikey order for the parts and will build a prototype. Stay tuned. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407548#407548 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill S" <docyukon(at)ptcnet.net>
Subject: RAC dual rp3 led indicator ckt.
Date: Aug 27, 2013
Bob a while back you drew up a ckt to drive two RAC RP3 indicaters from one servo output. Cant find it. And could you add the component values to the ckt drawing. Thanks Bill S. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Cessna dual electronic stall/gear warning horn
At 08:27 AM 8/27/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >I wonder if you can help me with a problem. A partner and I >recently purchased a 1977 Cessna 177RG which has a dual electronic >stall warning and gear warning system which is only heard through >the dual overhead cabin speakers. The stall warning is output >through one speaker as a steady on stall warning, while the gear >warning is output through the second speaker (slightly different >tone) as an intermittent on/off gear warning. I find it difficult to >hear the stall horn or the gear warning horn when wearing a noise >cancelling headset. Question: is there a way to convert the >electric output that drives the two overhead speakers into an >electronic output which could be fed into a PMA8000BT audio >panel? Perhaps there is a device I could interface between the dual >electronic stall/gear warning and the PMA8000BT audio panel, or >maybe this could be fabricated with relays and off the shelf electronic parts. > >I checked with the audio panel manufacturer, PS Engineering, but >they said it's not possible to convert an electromechanical warning >into and electronic signal. > >Thanks in advance for your advice Bob. HHHmmmm. . . . I think the PSE guys missed the boat on this one. An ELECTROMECHANICAL horn is an enhanced buzzer with a diaphragm added for greater sound output. This is an exemplar horn used on MANY thousands of S.E. aircraft. The warning tones for this style of horn cannot be electrically 'mixed' into the signals that drive your overhead speakers. Emacs! I designed an electronic stall/gear warning tone generator for the Bonanza/Baron lines at Beech about 1980 time frame. This was not electro-mechanical and used a special speaker I had specified for very poor response as an audio device but very efficient and with an aluminum cone for environmental robustness. The tones from this device could have been integrated into the ship's audio system . . . but it was never requested . . . at least while I was at Electro-Mech. Similarly, the warning tones that are applied to your cabin speakers CAN be tapped, conditioned and mixed into your PMA8000 audio system. The installation manual wiring diagrams show "unswitched audio inputs . . . Emacs! . . . with references to notes 6, 10, 11 . . . Emacs! From this data I deduce that input #1 is always ported to both speakers (if connected) and headset audio irrespective of condition for any system controls. There MIGHT be a simpler way to do this but without more cogent knowledge of how all the components are built and wired, the most conservative approach has a 99% probability of being good-out-of-the-box. Consider this interface circuit for tapping your speaker wiring and routing through isolation transformers to eliminate all possibilities for ground loops and/or unanticipated sneak paths. Two potentiometers will allow you to adjust the volume of each tone independently before they are mixed and applied to US-Input #1. Emacs! You can try single-turn pots if you like but I think the multi-turn, screwdriver adjust will provide a more vernier command of the audio levels and will 'stay put' with time. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: RAC dual rp3 led indicator ckt.
At 11:04 AM 8/27/2013, you wrote: >Bob a while back you drew up a ckt to drive two RAC RP3 indicaters >from one servo output. Cant find it. And could you add the >component values to the ckt drawing. Thanks Bill S. I don't recall the specific posting but the solutions are simple. During discussions about the RayAllen products on the List, the operating voltage the position reporting potentiometer in the actuator was reported . . . I don't recall if it was 5 or 12v. Can someone on the List cite the actual value? Also, I'm guessing that the ORN wire out of the indicator is the excitation voltage for the pot, the GRN wire is the pot wiper and the BLU wire is ground . . . yes? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Wesson" <Mark(at)wessonair.com>
Subject: Re: RAC dual rp3 led indicator ckt.
Date: Aug 27, 2013
The operating voltage of the indicator is 5v and the wiring colors you state are correct. Mark Wesson -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 3:07 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RAC dual rp3 led indicator ckt. --> At 11:04 AM 8/27/2013, you wrote: >Bob a while back you drew up a ckt to drive two RAC RP3 indicaters >from one servo output. Cant find it. And could you add the >component values to the ckt drawing. Thanks Bill S. I don't recall the specific posting but the solutions are simple. During discussions about the RayAllen products on the List, the operating voltage the position reporting potentiometer in the actuator was reported . . . I don't recall if it was 5 or 12v. Can someone on the List cite the actual value? Also, I'm guessing that the ORN wire out of the indicator is the excitation voltage for the pot, the GRN wire is the pot wiper and the BLU wire is ground . . . yes? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2013
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: RAC dual rp3 led indicator ckt.
Attached is a crude schematic of the Ray Allen indicator. As you can see your colors listed are correct. Dick Tasker Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 11:04 AM 8/27/2013, you wrote: >> Bob a while back you drew up a ckt to drive two RAC RP3 indicaters from one servo output. Cant find it. And could >> you add the component values to the ckt drawing. Thanks Bill S. > > I don't recall the specific posting but the > solutions are simple. During discussions > about the RayAllen products on the List, > the operating voltage the position reporting > potentiometer in the actuator was reported . . . > I don't recall if it was 5 or 12v. > > Can someone on the List cite the actual value? > Also, I'm guessing that the ORN wire out of > the indicator is the excitation voltage for > the pot, the GRN wire is the pot wiper and > the BLU wire is ground . . . yes? > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New Electronic Device "Smart" Charging Source
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 27, 2013
List members, Every month or two, I get a product promotion or discount offer from a company I bought a wide-band Oxygen sensor from. I'm already familiar with them and they make good stuff! The company is called PLX Devices, and they make incredible high quality products, gages, etc, mostly for the auto industry. Since batteries are frequently a hot topic on this list, especially lithium batteries, I thought I'd share this. I got an ad today on their 'not yet built' smart portable battery charger'. This would be handy for those tech guys that have, iPhone, iPods, iPads, Laptops, GPS's, or frankly pretty much anything that needs to be charged. This might be a life-saver power source for some pilots needing a high capacity "smart" charging station. I don't get any kickbacks from them people, I just thought there might be some pilots on this list that would be interested in the product. You might notice all the features, watch the video for more into. I think it would seem to be handy for some folks. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/plxdevices/legion-the-battery-reinvented Mike Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2013
Subject: led trim display
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
i have a ray allen trim display. it has a vertical row of led's. when i keey the mike [pilot or passenger ptt] the led that was lit brightly goes out and the top led lights up but dimly. is this wiring or interference from transmission? radio and indicator otherwise work perfect. bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Cessna dual electronic stall/gear warning
horn > From this data I deduce that input #1 is always ported > to both speakers (if connected) and headset audio > irrespective of condition for any system controls. Does your PMA8000 already drive the speakers? If so, there is risk for creating a feed-back loop in your audio system if speaker signals are sampled and fed back into on of the system's inputs. Most pilots with sophisticated audio systems use headsets but in your case, you'll want to make sure that your PMA8000 speaker driving features are turned off. As I mentioned earlier, without wiring diagrams for the as-installed system, it's a challenge to catch all the 'rats in the woodpile'. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: led trim display
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 28, 2013
I like Ray Allen stuff, but the RP3 indicator and the trim boxes have limitations. One of them is that the full-scale voltage returned from the trim box pot is 1.2V. This is an issue when the wiring is close to the transmitter because the voltages are way down in the RFI/EMI mud. The other is the nature of the LED bar graph, which is an old design that can only get so bright, and updates to the design, like an LCD aren't happening. See attached schematic. My approach was to eliminate the indicator and turn the "trim box" into a true servo. I designed the TSCMR, true servo control to do that. Alternatively, I designed a more advanced version, BUT DON'T SELL IT, that uses 12V full-scale voltage at the trim box potentiometer, the bar graph, an "In Transit" led, a "locked" led and a setting knob. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407633#407633 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tscmr_installation_manual_416.pdf http://forums.matronics.com//files/rac_trim_and_trim_indicator_schematics_433.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Electronic Device "Smart" Charging Source
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Aug 28, 2013
Mike Welch wrote: > List members, > > snip... I'm already familiar with them and they make good stuff! > The company is called PLX Devices, and they make incredible high quality products, gages, > etc, mostly for the auto industry. > snip... > > Mike Welch I can attest to the high quality, simple operation of the PLX's Air Fuel Ratio Meter. Probably the simplest, no-brainer way to tune EFI. I installed a Simple Digital Systems EFI on a Franklin 6 cylinder and set it up using the PLX device. Amounted to putting a temporary O2 sensor in the 3 into 1 collector on one cylinder bank and connecting to the PLX device (velcroed to my panel) and gauge. Start the engine and your real-time air fuel ratio is displayed. Change the mixture (fuel value) on the EFI and watch the gauge reflect the change. Set it up for 12.5 to 1 max power at 250 RPM increments in the useable RPM range. Took about 15 minutes to map the 5 point rpm fuel curve. When I was done, I had the feeling that it couldn't be that simple. It was. The gauge is nice looking with it's digital display and progressive LED "needle", but once the AFR is set there's no need for gauge so it can be removed. I would bet the PLX battery charger is equally well designed and built. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407640#407640 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Cessna dual electronic stall/gear warning
horn >The current audio panel which will be replaced by the PMA8000 has >no output to the speakers and the only thing driving the speakers is the >stall and landing gear warning system. Very good, then there is zero possibility for feedback.

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lw

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lw