AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-mj

June 13, 2014 - July 10, 2014



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Subject: Mag switch through d-sub connector
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 13, 2014
I'm trying to clean up the connections to a switch panel that has the mag switches. Is a D-sub connector appropriate for mag switch connections? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424805#424805 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Direction Indicator Needs (Summary)
Date: Jun 14, 2014
6/14/2014 Hello Ken, Thanks for your response. 1) I had written: =9CI can not find that information on the MGL web site. Can you please help me find it?=9D And that is exactly what you did when you wrote: 2) =9CIf you look in the manual http://www.mglavionics.com/AV2.pdf on page 10 you will see the definitions of the 2-D, 3D-A, and 3D-G choices or operating modes.=9D and =9DI discounted purchasing the stand alone $500. magnetic heading system for these reasons.=9D 3) I agree completely with your analysis and greatly appreciate your input. If I want the degree of stabilization that I interpret that 14 CFR 91.205 (d) (9) =9CGyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent)" intends then I must purchase: a) The AV-2 AHRS Display (VELOCITY Series), b) Both the SP-6 and SP-7 Sensors (Full AHRS), c) And, if I intend to mount the two sensors in the same location, an SP-2 / SP-4 Connector. d) For a total cost of USD $1305 plus shipping. This increased cost over my earlier posted solution of using just the display and the SP-6 sensor causes me to reconsider the potential solutions to my problem, but I can not yet rule out the MGL solution because of the additional expense. (An addict will go to some extreme lengths to feed his addiction.) Thanks again for your inputs and I continue to welcome any inputs that others may have. OC 'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand information." == From: Ken <kleh(at)dialupatcost.ca> Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Direction Indicator Needs (Summary) Hi Owen I agree that gps track does not equate to a gyro compass. If you look in the manual http://www.mglavionics.com/AV2.pdf on page 10 you will see the definitions of the 2-D, 3D-A, and 3D-G choices or operating modes. The disadvantages column says "Cannot correctly compensate for tilt during any form of turn due to centrifugal forces acting on the accelerometers" That is for the 3D-A mode which is what you get with the SP6 as far as I can tell. The disadvantage column for the 3D-G (the best mode of operation with a full AHRS) says "Can show very large errors if the horizon information is invalid which could have a number of causes such as exceeding operational limitations of the horizon system." I interpret this to mean that you are back to the 3D-A mode if the attitude info is not available. This is the same results I found in my little experiments with a 3D magnetic sensor. The results were only useable when flying straight and level. I'd expect much better results near the equator of course. Again I have no experience with the MGL products but lacking actual performance reports, I discounted purchasing the stand alone $500. magnetic heading system for these reasons. Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Mag switch through d-sub connector
At 03:19 PM 6/13/2014, you wrote: > >I'm trying to clean up the connections to a switch panel that has >the mag switches. Is a D-sub connector appropriate for mag switch connections? Are you intending to run p-leads through a connector with other system wires? I presume that you're wanting to 'unplug' all wires from a panel so that it can be easily removed . . . This practice is generally discouraged from the simple perspective of complexity driven drop in reliability . . . every connector adds three new joints to every wire. The more sanitary practice is to make your wire bundle to the panel of sufficient length that it can be removed and supported in some way that allows access but without breaking the bundle. If you do decide to put connectors in the p-leads, run them through their own separate connector and bring the shields through the connector on their own pins. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mag switch through d-sub connector
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 14, 2014
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 03:19 PM 6/13/2014, you wrote: > > > > > > > I'm trying to clean up the connections to a switch panel that has > > the mag switches. Is a D-sub connector appropriate for mag switch connections? > > > > > > Are you intending to run p-leads through a > connector with other system wires? I presume > that you're wanting to 'unplug' all wires > from a panel so that it can be easily removed . . . > This practice is generally discouraged from > the simple perspective of complexity driven > drop in reliability . . . every connector adds > three new joints to every wire. > In this case, the switches that I'm using have solder lugs so there's already three joints. I'm currently using faston and spade connectors for each wire. I was simply trying to consolidate the connections to a single DB-25 connector. > > The more sanitary practice is to make your > wire bundle to the panel of sufficient length > that it can be removed and supported in some > way that allows access but without breaking > the bundle. That's what I'm doing now. But identifying each wire and mating it can be really tedious especially considering the location. > > If you do decide to put connectors in the > p-leads, run them through their own separate > connector and bring the shields through the > connector on their own pins. I can certainly do that. I just didn't know if the mags should be physically segregated to a different connector. Bob . . .[/quote] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424831#424831 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Mag switch through d-sub connector
> >That's what I'm doing now. But identifying each wire and mating it >can be really tedious especially considering the location.\ Odds are that you can bundle the mag-wires in with other, low victim-potential wires, with no difficulty. Taking them through a connector doesn't add significant risk . . . the wires get pre-flight tested. Good compromise is run them through their own connector. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: 91.205 - NOT!
Date: Jun 15, 2014
6/15/2014 Hello Listers, Andrew Elliott wrote: And most clearly, 91.205 does not apply to experimental category aircraft. Why do you think that it does? Please see the FAA Feb 2, 2009 letter available here: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/rourke-1%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf This Feb 2, 2009 letter from the FAA explains why I think that 14 CFR 91.205 does apply to all EAB aircraft ever since change 3 to FAA Order 8130.2F** was issued on 4/18/2007. The below copied explicit wording has been required in every EAB Operating Limitations since 4/18/2007: After completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only. Prior to 4/18/2007, starting at some date that I can not determine, the FAA or DAR airworthiness inspectors were ordered to instruct the EAB aircraft applicant regarding this requirement and to include the requirement in the Operating Limitations, but no explicit wording was provided. OC 'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand information." **PS: The current version, FAA Order 8130.2G, dated 4/16/2011, with Change 1, dated 7/02/2012, contains that same wording. ============================================================================= From: Dr. Andrew Elliott Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 8:38 AMSubject: RE: 91.205 - NOT! It does not. In your list, 91.205 is the reference for nearly all requirements. And most clearly, 91.205 does not apply to experimental category aircraft. Why do you think that it does? Andy ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 15, 2014
I checked the printed paper issue and the online issue and they are both incorrect. The 555 should be wired to Positive of the keep-alive bus. Likewise the op amp should be eliminated and a 0.01 uF capacitor installed in the trigger line. It plain to see that Jim Weir loves op amps. I prefer simpler designs and hope to publish one here soon, using no ICs and only six basic parts. It will do a "slow-fade dim-out". ps: it is entirely possible that the Cmos 555 will operate with no power connection. Cmos circuits are known to do that since their power requirements are almost zero. But I don't think it was done on purpose. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424875#424875 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
>ps: it is entirely possible that the Cmos 555 will operate with no >power connection. Cmos circuits are known to do that since their >power requirements are almost zero. But I don't think it was done on purpose. Yeah, did a delayed off circuit mucho moons ago using schmidt-trigger cmos gate array driving power MOSFET . . . supported the timer with a big tantalum to keep the time active after the 'control' signal went low. Works good. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 15, 2014
I've built a Master Warning Panel using LEDs for things like boost pump on, starter engaged, pitot heat on, etc. I'm using Eric's EGRAVR dimmer to control the brightness. Everything works great. http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/2013-08-14-IMG_20130814_191418_518.jpg Except the engine analyzer (low oil pressure) alarm. That line is supposed to go to ground when an alarm condition occurs. But the LED for that warning is always slightly lit. The engine analyzer people said it was designed for incandescent and to put a 1.5k resistor across the LED. That eliminates the ghosting, but it also makes the LED dimmer than the rest. In fact, once I dim the panel to about 25%, the engine warning LED does not illuminate at all. I suppose that I could put resistors across all the LEDs which would dim all the LED's. Then again, I could reduce the inline resistor which would increase the brightness but I'm not sure this is the correct fix. Anybody have any suggestions? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424883#424883 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean" <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
Date: Jun 15, 2014
> > It plain to see that Jim Weir loves op amps. I prefer simpler designs and > hope to publish one here soon, using no ICs and only six basic parts. It > will do a "slow-fade dim-out". Eric, It might be nice to consider designing this so that it can be turned on and off normally while the master is on and then come on for a delayed period when the master is shut off. Just a thought before the design gets finalized. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sprocket <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Date: Jun 15, 2014
There are many elegant fixes to this problem, but the brute force technique may be the easiest to wire. Assuming your engine monitor has a 5volt output, install a low power (gold contact) relay with the coil between the alarm output and the 5v. One pole of the contacts gets connected to ground and the other to the LED. There are ways to do this with transistors, but this is simple and hard to mess up. Vern =================================================== Sent from my iThing. It is responsible for all gramma and typo terrors. > On Jun 15, 2014, at 10:57 AM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > > > I've built a Master Warning Panel using LEDs for things like boost pump on, starter engaged, pitot heat on, etc. I'm using Eric's EGRAVR dimmer to control the brightness. Everything works great. > > http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/2013-08-14-IMG_20130814_191418_518.jpg > > Except the engine analyzer (low oil pressure) alarm. > > That line is supposed to go to ground when an alarm condition occurs. But the LED for that warning is always slightly lit. The engine analyzer people said it was designed for incandescent and to put a 1.5k resistor across the LED. > > That eliminates the ghosting, but it also makes the LED dimmer than the rest. In fact, once I dim the panel to about 25%, the engine warning LED does not illuminate at all. > > I suppose that I could put resistors across all the LEDs which would dim all the LED's. Then again, I could reduce the inline resistor which would increase the brightness but I'm not sure this is the correct fix. > > Anybody have any suggestions? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424883#424883 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 15, 2014
sprocket(at)vx-aviation.c wrote: > There are many elegant fixes to this problem, but the brute force technique may be the easiest to wire. > > Assuming your engine monitor has a 5volt output, install a low power (gold contact) relay with the coil between the alarm output and the 5v. One pole of the contacts gets connected to ground and the other to the LED. > > There are ways to do this with transistors, but this is simple and hard to mess up. > > Vern It does have a 5v output, but not easy to get to at this point. There's a 12v supply that's easily accessible. Would that work? Can you give me a part number for the type of relay? Thanks, Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424891#424891 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 2014
Subject: Re: 91.205 - NOT!
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Owen, Andrew, et al, The FAA published 8130.2G, "Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft and Related Products" on 8/31/2010. Section 9, Experimental Amateur-Built Airworthiness Certificates, paragraph 4104, page 4/64, "Issuance of Experimental Amateur-Built Operating Limitations." b. The following operating limitations shall be prescribed to experimental amateur-built aircraft: (7) This aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only. (8) After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 14 CFR =C2=A7 91.205, this airc raft is to be operated under VFR, day only. So, Andrew, you can claim 91.205 doesn't apply, but when that statement is in your op limitations, it does. Rick Girard On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Owen Baker wrote: > > 6/15/2014 > > Hello Listers, Andrew Elliott wrote: =9CAnd most clearly, 91.205 do es not > apply to experimental category aircraft. Why do you think that it does? =9D > > Please see the FAA Feb 2, 2009 letter available here: > > http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_ > offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/ > interps/2009/rourke-1%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf > > This Feb 2, 2009 letter from the FAA explains why I think that 14 CFR > 91.205 does apply to all EAB aircraft ever since change 3 to FAA Order > 8130.2F** was issued on 4/18/2007. The below copied explicit wording has > been required in every EAB Operating Limitations since 4/18/2007: > > =9CAfter completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped > for night and/or instrument > flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under > VFR, day only.=9D > > Prior to 4/18/2007, starting at some date that I can not determine, the > FAA or DAR airworthiness inspectors were ordered to instruct the EAB > aircraft applicant regarding this requirement and to include the > requirement in the Operating Limitations, but no explicit wording was > provided. > > =98OC=99 > > 'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gathe r > and understand information." > > **PS: The current version, FAA Order 8130.2G, dated 4/16/2011, with Chang e > 1, dated 7/02/2012, contains that same wording. > > ======================== > ================= > > From: Dr. Andrew Elliott > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 8:38 AMSubject: RE: 91.205 - NOT! > > It does not. In your list, 91.205 is the reference for nearly all > requirements. And most clearly, 91.205 does not apply to experimental > category aircraft. Why do you think that it does? Andy > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 2014
Subject: Re: 91.205 - NOT!
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Just to be sure that 8130.2G still applies I checked the FAA.gov website. 8130.2H is out in draft form and true to FAA form they have managed to take something that was fairly straight forward and turn it into a POS. Now you are referred to Appendix C where you'll be happy to find a chart to thoroughly screw up the op limits for Ex Am-Built. If you go through said chart on page C-11 you'll find: Day VFR flight operations are authorized. Night flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in 14 CFR 91.205(c) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91. Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in 14 CFR 91.205(d) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and include the following items: date, work performed, and name and certificate number of person returning aircraft to service. and that this applies to all aircraft certificated under 14 CFR 21.191(a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (g), (h) & (i) . Your Friendly FAA at work for you. Rick Girard On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Richard Girard wrote : > Owen, Andrew, et al, The FAA published 8130.2G, "Airworthiness > Certification of Aircraft and Related Products" on 8/31/2010. > Section 9, Experimental Amateur-Built Airworthiness Certificates, > paragraph 4104, page 4/64, "Issuance of Experimental Amateur-Built > Operating Limitations." > b. The following operating limitations shall be prescribed to experimenta l > amateur-built > aircraft: > (7) This aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only. > (8) After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately > equipped for night > and/or instrument flight in accordance with 14 CFR =C2=A7 91.205, this ai rcraft > is to be operated under > VFR, day only. > So, Andrew, you can claim 91.205 doesn't apply, but when that statement i s > in your op limitations, it does. > > Rick Girard > > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Owen Baker wrote: > > >> >> 6/15/2014 >> >> Hello Listers, Andrew Elliott wrote: =9CAnd most clearly, 91.205 d oes not >> apply to experimental category aircraft. Why do you think that it does? =9D >> >> Please see the FAA Feb 2, 2009 letter available here: >> >> http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_ >> offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/ >> interps/2009/rourke-1%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf >> >> This Feb 2, 2009 letter from the FAA explains why I think that 14 CFR >> 91.205 does apply to all EAB aircraft ever since change 3 to FAA Order >> 8130.2F** was issued on 4/18/2007. The below copied explicit wording has >> been required in every EAB Operating Limitations since 4/18/2007: >> >> =9CAfter completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriatel y >> equipped for night and/or instrument >> flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under >> VFR, day only.=9D >> >> Prior to 4/18/2007, starting at some date that I can not determine, the >> FAA or DAR airworthiness inspectors were ordered to instruct the EAB >> aircraft applicant regarding this requirement and to include the >> requirement in the Operating Limitations, but no explicit wording was >> provided. >> >> =98OC=99 >> >> 'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to >> gather and understand information." >> >> **PS: The current version, FAA Order 8130.2G, dated 4/16/2011, with >> Change 1, dated 7/02/2012, contains that same wording. >> >> ======================== >> ================= >> >> From: Dr. Andrew Elliott >> >> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 8:38 AMSubject: RE: 91.205 - NOT! >> >> It does not. In your list, 91.205 is the reference for nearly all >> requirements. And most clearly, 91.205 does not apply to experimental >> category aircraft. Why do you think that it does? Andy >> =========== =========== =========== =========== >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhapp y. > - Groucho Marx > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 15, 2014
On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:20 PM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > It does have a 5v output, but not easy to get to at this point. There's a 12v supply that's easily accessible. Would that work? > > Can you give me a part number for the type of relay? A 12V supply is fine. It doesn't even have to be sourced from the engine analyzer. 12V from the supply side of your dimmer would work, or from anywhere else that's convenient. A relay like this... http://bit.ly/1voFDLC ...should work a treat. This relay's coil current is only 12.5 milliamps, so it will be safe to connect directly to the engine analyzer's alarm output. Connect 12V to pin 2, the engine analyzer's alarm output to pin 9, your LED indicator's ground line to pin 5, and ground to pin 10. Ignore pins 1 and 5 (or snip them off). I think it's pretty unlikely that the "leakage" you're seeing into the alarm output pin under alarm off conditions would be sufficient to close the relay. Solder directly to the relay's pins, then encapsulate the connections in hot glue, Shoe Goo or similar. In this service, the relay will probably outlast us all. Alternatively, you could eliminate moving parts and more than halve the cost by using a P-channel MOSFET like this... http://bit.ly/UEp2qv Connect your LED indicator's ground line to the source (S) pin, ground to the drain (D) pin, and the engine analyzer's alarm output to the gate (G) pin. You may find that it works fine like this, or it may still turn on the LED (it will be full bright now) with the alarm off. It depends what exactly is happening on the engine analyzer's alarm output pin; a MOSFET's gate is much more sensitive than a relay coil. If it does turn on with no alarm, just connect the 1.5k ohm resistor you already have from the MOSFET's gate to 12V. This will pull up on the gate during the alarm off condition, keeping the MOSFET -- and your indicator -- turned off. When the alarm output is on, it will pull the gate to ground, turning on the MOSFET, which in turn connects the LED to ground. Heat shrink each pin connection as you assemble, then the whole thing when it's complete. Very nice indicator panel, Don. Beautifully made. How did you make the legend transparency? Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 15, 2014
Eric, That sounds perfect. Is there any need to physically mount the MOSFET? Like with a heatsink? Or can I RTV it someplace once it's all assembled and heatshinked? I had the mask made by trophy shop... for $20! I got a tip that they have this black material that they hit with a laser printer. Different fonts, sizes, the works. All I did was email the a PDF of what I wanted and a couple hours later I picked it up. 8) Here's some construction details for anyone that's interested. http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/2013/08/03/13-99-annunicator-panel/ http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/2013/08/15/13-99-annunicator-panel-3/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424903#424903 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Date: Jun 15, 2014
...I think it's pretty unlikely that the "leakage" you're seeing into the alarm output pin under alarm off conditions would be sufficient to close the relay. Eric has provided good advice. I am concerned that you will energize the relay due to the output protection structure of the EMS. If you can use the 5V this won't be a problem (but you would need a 5V relay). If it is, we'll refund the consulting fee. V ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 15, 2014
On Jun 15, 2014, at 9:50 PM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > Is there any need to physically mount the MOSFET? Like with a heatsink? Or can I RTV it someplace once it's all assembled and heatshrinked? No heatsink required. It's a pretty stout device, capable of carrying several amps if heatsinked, but in this application it will only see the 20-30mA that passes through your LED. If we assume 30mA, the MOSFET will dissipate 0.03A x 0.03A x 0.185 ohm = 0.00017 watts of heat. MOSFET power dissipation is calculated by multiplying the square of current flow by the resistance between source and drain when the device is turned on: Rds(on) in the datasheet. You can glue or zip-tie it to whatever mounting point is convenient. Thanks for the details on your annunciator panel; I'm saving that for future reference! Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 12:57 PM 6/15/2014, you wrote: > >I've built a Master Warning Panel using LEDs for things like boost >pump on, starter engaged, pitot heat on, etc. I'm using Eric's >EGRAVR dimmer to control the brightness. Everything works great. > >http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/2013-08-14-IMG_20130814_191418_518.jpg > >Except the engine analyzer (low oil pressure) alarm. > >That line is supposed to go to ground when an alarm condition >occurs. But the LED for that warning is always slightly lit. The >engine analyzer people said it was designed for incandescent and to >put a 1.5k resistor across the LED. Wrong place for the resistor. There is a resistor X in series with the LED to bias it up to run on the 14V supply. Resistor Z is used to make the diode/X string emulate an incandescent bulb. Try 1000 ohms at Z. Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 16, 2014
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > Wrong place for the resistor. There is a resistor X in > series with the LED to bias it up to run on the > 14V supply. Resistor Z is used to make the diode/X > string emulate an incandescent bulb. Try 1000 ohms > at Z. > > [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20140616075849.01f3d938(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] > > > > Bob . . . Well that would make my life a gazillion times easier! It makes sense too. I'll give it a try. Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424936#424936 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 16, 2014
Sadly, it did not help. It does eliminate the ghosting. But just like when I put the resistor across the LED, it still results in a dimmer LED overall. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424951#424951 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 02:41 PM 6/16/2014, you wrote: > >Sadly, it did not help. It does eliminate the ghosting. But just >like when I put the resistor across the LED, it still results in a >dimmer LED overall. Okay, was this 'output' intended to drive an incandescent lamp in the first place? The symptoms you describe suggest that it's an LED specific output and may have a resistor already built into the output. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 17, 2014
Yep. "The engine analyzer people said it was designed for incandescent and to put a 1.5k resistor across the LED. " Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424993#424993 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 17, 2014
Does the LED have a series resistor? If so, what is its value? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424997#424997 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2014
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
On 6/17/2014 3:04 AM, donjohnston wrote: > > Yep. > > "The engine analyzer people said it was designed for incandescent and to put a 1.5k resistor across the LED." > > What kind of LED are you using? Is it one designed to run directly on 12V (meaning it already has an internal current limit resistor)? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 17, 2014
> Does the LED have a series resistor? If so, what is its value? > Joe Yes. 390ohm (see attached). What kind of LED are you using? Is it one designed to run directly on 12V (meaning it already has an internal current limit resistor)? No. See above. There's nothing wrong with any of the other LEDs. It's just the one for the engine analyzer. The analyzer is allowing some current through when it's off. With an incandescent bulb, this is not a problem. With an LED, it is. Putting a 1k resistor solves the dimly lit LED but it make the LED dimmer than the rest. So I'm trying to solve two possible problems. 1) Keep the engine analyzer alarm LED from being partially lit when it should be off, and 2) have the LED at the same brightness as the other LEDs. Now it's possible (more like probable) that I'm going to have the exact same problem with the Low Voltage warning since the LR3C voltage regulator is designed for an incandescent bulb also. But I haven't gotten to the point where I can start the engine so I don't know yet. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425013#425013 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/warning_circuit_109.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 17, 2014
I suggest that you put a 1.5k resistor across the LED per the engine analyzer people. Then replace the 390 ohm series resistor with a 330 ohm resistor. Or experiment with different values (all less than 390) to get the desired brightness. Or put a pot in series with the dim LED and turn the pot until the current though the dim LED is equal to the current through one of the other LEDs. Then substitute a fixed resistor for the pot. 40 years ago I could have calculated the resistor value. Now trial and error is easier. :-) Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425024#425024 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 09:55 AM 6/17/2014, you wrote: > > > > Does the LED have a series resistor? If so, what is its value? > > Joe > >Yes. 390ohm (see attached).\ Ooops, two LED's in series . . . should have asked about that. Okay, I suggest we pay homage to our teachers one of whom once opined: ". . . when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of Science . . ." -Lord Kelvin- Consider the array of sketches at: http://tinyurl.com/oxrwae7 . . . it would be exceedingly helpful to conduct three experiments to measure V1 (voltage across the bare-foot resistor/led array; V2 (voltage across incandescent lamp); V3 voltage across resistor/led array with anti- ghosting resistor added. >There's nothing wrong with any of the other LEDs. It's just the one >for the engine analyzer. The analyzer is allowing some current >through when it's off. With an incandescent bulb, this is not a >problem. With an LED, it is. Putting a 1k resistor solves the dimly >lit LED but it make the LED dimmer than the rest. So I'm trying to >solve two possible problems. 1) Keep the engine analyzer alarm LED >from being partially lit when it should be off, and 2) have the LED >at the same brightness as the other LEDs. > >Now it's possible (more like probable) that I'm going to have the >exact same problem with the Low Voltage warning since the LR3C >voltage regulator is designed for an incandescent bulb also. But I >haven't gotten to the point where I can start the engine so I don't know yet. Can't speak to internals of the engine analyzer but the LR3 regulator has a lamp output driver http://tinyurl.com/cgnwr5k INTENDED to exhibit some pull-down current on the lamp even when the LR-3 internal electronics are UN powered . . . The circuit above was suggested to soak off the effects of this small 'leakage' current that was insufficient to light an incandescent lamp but enough to tickle an LED into a small light output. I suspect a similar thing is happening with the engine analyzer. You can test the LV warn from the LR3 without running the engine. The light starts to flash as soon as you turn on the master switch even if the alternator is off and/or the engine is not running. Get those voltages and we can begin to sort out your current difficulty. Lord Kelven was also known to have said things like "I believe x-rays will prove to be a hoax" . . . and "There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement." These blunders by the venerable gentleman serve to remind us that the good student questions everything and seeks to sort un-substantiated opinion from demonstrable fact. Let us go to the workbench and demonstrate . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean" <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Date: Jun 17, 2014
> Does the LED have a series resistor? If so, what is its value? > Joe Yes. 390ohm (see attached).\ Perhaps you could use a zener with a voltage just slitely higher than the open circuit off voltage output. Put that in series with the LED, to block the small output, and reduce t he series resistor to bring the brightness up. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
> > > You can test the LV warn from the LR3 without running > the engine. The light starts to flash as soon as you > turn on the master switch even if the alternator is > off and/or the engine is not running. Stubbed my toe here . . . of course without the engine running, you'll have to boost bus voltage with an ac mains power supply to get the light to go out . . . hence, without that power supply you are correct, exercising the LR-3's lv warning is not yet possible. However, the LR-3 is intended to drive lamps with over 100 mA of operating current. So the schematic I suggested for one led MIGHT still be good for two but in any case, the configuration shown for the V3 measurement is good . . . the 1K resistor is simply reduced in value until the ghost-light goes out. So hooking your annunciator to the un-powered LR-3 should offer a platform for validating the value of the anti-ghosting resistor. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 17, 2014
user9253 wrote: > I suggest that you put a 1.5k resistor across the LED per the engine analyzer people. Then replace the 390 ohm series resistor with a 330 ohm resistor. Or experiment with different values (all less than 390) to get the desired brightness. > Or put a pot in series with the dim LED and turn the pot until the current though the dim LED is equal to the current through one of the other LEDs. Then substitute a fixed resistor for the pot. > 40 years ago I could have calculated the resistor value. Now trial and error is easier. :-) > Joe I tried that. I ended up with no series resistor and it was still dimmer than the others. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425032#425032 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2014
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
How about a brighter led, so it's dimmed level will be equal to the others. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 06/17/2014 02:06 PM, donjohnston wrote: > > > user9253 wrote: >> I suggest that you put a 1.5k resistor across the LED per the engine analyzer people. Then replace the 390 ohm series resistor with a 330 ohm resistor. Or experiment with different values (all less than 390) to get the desired brightness. >> Or put a pot in series with the dim LED and turn the pot until the current though the dim LED is equal to the current through one of the other LEDs. Then substitute a fixed resistor for the pot. >> 40 years ago I could have calculated the resistor value. Now trial and error is easier. :-) >> Joe > > > I tried that. I ended up with no series resistor and it was still dimmer than the others. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425032#425032 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2014
From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
I don't believe you will get satisfactory results with any combination of resistors. I think the only solution is a driver circuit between the output and the LED. A single transistor and a couple of resistors should do it. It may need a separate power source. On 6/17/2014 2:06 PM, donjohnston wrote: > > > user9253 wrote: >> I suggest that you put a 1.5k resistor across the LED per the engine analyzer people. Then replace the 390 ohm series resistor with a 330 ohm resistor. Or experiment with different values (all less than 390) to get the desired brightness. >> Or put a pot in series with the dim LED and turn the pot until the current though the dim LED is equal to the current through one of the other LEDs. Then substitute a fixed resistor for the pot. >> 40 years ago I could have calculated the resistor value. Now trial and error is easier. :-) >> Joe > > I tried that. I ended up with no series resistor and it was still dimmer than the others. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425032#425032 > > -- Lyle Sent from my Gateway E4610D desktop ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 17, 2014
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > Ooops, two LED's in series . . . should have asked about > that. Okay, I suggest we pay homage to our teachers one > of whom once opined: ". . . when you can measure what you are > speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something > about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot > express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and > unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, > but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state > of Science . . ." -Lord Kelvin- > > Consider the array of sketches at: > > http://tinyurl.com/oxrwae7 (http://tinyurl.com/oxrwae7) > I suggest we pay homage to our teachers one of whom once replied: "Dammit Bob, I'm a doctor, not a engineer" -Dr. Leonard McCoy- Unfortunately, this is a bit beyond my skillset. While the squiggly lines are not quite hieroglyphics to me, I'm not exactly sure what to do with them. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425043#425043 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 17, 2014
OK, here is another idea. Put a diode (1N4148 ?) in series with each of the bright LEDs. If you are lucky, the voltage drop across the 1N4148 will equal the voltage drop across the oil pressure solid state switch. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425054#425054 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 18, 2014
donjohnston wrote: > > > "The engine analyzer people said it was designed for incandescent... " Here's a simple solution. Use an incandescent bulb such as this: http://tinyurl.com/kw8usxc Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425076#425076 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Date: Jun 18, 2014
I don't remember specifically which of your instruments has the ghosting problem. I'll tell you my story, which may or may not be relevant, but it may help others with a similar situation as mine. When I first powered up my instrument panel, the red warning light for my Grand Rapids EIS engine monitor glowed very dimly when the panel was powered up but the engine monitor was turned off. Ghosting went away when I turned the engine monitor on. Like you, I had replaced an incandescent light with an LED. On the bench, the ghosting seemed like a problem. However, I focused on other, bigger, problems and never got around to fixing the ghosting problem. By the time I completed my flight test phase, I understood that the ghosting was not a problem at all and maybe even a benefit. I turn the engine monitor on before engine start and leave it on until after engine shutdown. Since ghosting only occurs when the master switch is on and the engine monitor is off, I never see ghosting because the engine monitor is normally on whenever the master switch is on. I now consider ghosting, if I ever see it, to be a warning that I've forgotten to turn the engine monitor on. "It's not a bug, it's a feature." Good luck, Dennis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sprocket <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Date: Jun 18, 2014
.....so the relay option is looking pretty good right about now. As I mentioned, there is the simple brute force relay method, then the more complicated 'elegant' method.... Elegance is elusive. Vern =================================================== Sent from my iThing. It is responsible for all gramma and typo terrors. > On Jun 18, 2014, at 6:27 AM, "eschlanser" wrote: > > > > donjohnston wrote: >> >> >> "The engine analyzer people said it was designed for incandescent... " > > > Here's a simple solution. Use an incandescent bulb such as this: http://tinyurl.com/kw8usxc > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425076#425076 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean" <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Date: Jun 18, 2014
I submitted this a couple of days ago and it seemed to be ignored. Does anyone know why this very simple method would not work?? Perhaps you could use a zener with a voltage just slitely higher than the open circuit off voltage output. Put that in series with the LED, to block the small output, and reduce the series resistor to bring the brightness up. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 09:29 AM 6/18/2014, you wrote: >I submitted this a couple of days ago and it seemed to be >ignored. Does anyone know why this very simple method would not work?? > > Perhaps you could use a zener with a voltage just slitely > higher than the open circuit off voltage output. Put that in > series with the LED, to block the small output, and reduce > the series resistor to bring the brightness up. Not sure what you're suggesting . . . can you offer a schematic along with some description of where the voltage drops are expected and of what magnitude? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sprocket <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Date: Jun 18, 2014
Dimming wouldn't work very well with an in series zener. Vern ========================== ========================== Sent from my iThing. It is responsible for all gramma and typo terrors. > On Jun 18, 2014, at 7:29 AM, "Roger & Jean" wrote: > > I submitted this a couple of days ago and it seemed to be ignored. Does a nyone know why this very simple method would not work?? > > Perhaps you could use a zener with a voltage just slitely > higher than the open circuit off voltage output. Put that in > series with the LED, to block the small output, and reduce > the series resistor to bring the brightness up. > > Roger > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean" <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Date: Jun 18, 2014
Perhaps you could use a zener with a voltage just slitely higher than the open circuit off voltage output. Put that in series with the LED, to block the small output, and reduce the series resistor to bring the brightness up. Not sure what you're suggesting . . . can you offer a schematic along with some description of where the voltage drops are expected and of what magnitude? I am not familiar with the device outputing the signal to the LED. Perhaps I am all wet in assuming these outputs, See attached. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 08:52 AM 6/18/2014, you wrote: I don't remember specifically which of your instruments has the ghosting problem. I'll tell you my story, which may or may not be relevant, but it may help others with a similar situation as mine. When I first powered up my instrument panel, the red warning light for my Grand Rapids EIS engine monitor glowed very dimly when the panel was powered up but the engine monitor was turned off. Ghosting went away when I turned the engine monitor on. Like you, I had replaced an incandescent light with an LED. On the bench, the ghosting seemed like a problem. It was a legacy practice in aviation annunciator lamp outputs to offer some way that an annunciator can tell the pilot that the system driving that annunciator is OFF. Using the normally closed contacts of a relay ALWAYS works but if they can be replaced at less cost, the solid state option is preferred. The output circuit depicted in the adaptation of LED's to the B&C LR series regulators http://tinyurl.com/cgnwr5k is an exemplar approach to the task for incandescent annunciators common to the time. The resistor between the collector and base of the lamp driver causes a 'powered down' LR3 to drive an annunciator lamp into partial conduction . . . In later years we added a remote sense lead to the ov/lv detection system which causes the lv warn to come alive when the bus becomes hot but before the engine is started and irrespective of the position of the alternator field switch. This change of architecture eliminated the value of 'powered down' conduction of the annunciator sorta went away. The 'problem' can be eliminated by snipping out the one-time-useful resistor. I think I'll suggest that B&C eliminate that resistor in future production and modify any regulators that come back for other reasons. However, I focused on other, bigger, problems and never got around to fixing the ghosting problem. By the time I completed my flight test phase, I understood that the ghosting was not a problem at all and maybe even a benefit. It CAN be eliminated . . . with a massaging of performance facts . . . I turn the engine monitor on before engine start and leave it on until after engine shutdown. Since ghosting only occurs when the master switch is on and the engine monitor is off, I never see ghosting because the engine monitor is normally on whenever the master switch is on. I now consider ghosting, if I ever see it, to be a warning that I've forgotten to turn the engine monitor on. "It's not a bug, it's a feature." . . . it may have been just that under alternative design goals. Without benefit of documentation or conversation with the original designer . . . its a WAG. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
> > >I suggest we pay homage to our teachers one of whom once replied: >"Dammit Bob, I'm a doctor, not a engineer" -Dr. Leonard McCoy- > >Unfortunately, this is a bit beyond my skillset. While the squiggly >lines are not quite hieroglyphics to me, I'm not exactly sure what >to do with them. > Not sure how to answer this . . . analysis and resolution of some problems simply does not move forward without good data. Putting a resistor across the lamp/resistor string SHOULD have fixed your problem. But the narrative of your observed behavior left me scratching my head . . . too much is not yet known . . . Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 18, 2014
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] > > Not sure how to answer this . . . analysis and > resolution of some problems simply does not > move forward without good data. > > Putting a resistor across the lamp/resistor > string SHOULD have fixed your problem. But the > narrative of your observed behavior left > me scratching my head . . . too much is > not yet known . . . > > Bob . . . Technically the resistor did fix the problem (ghosting). But it created a new problem (dim LED). So now I'm working on the second problem while not re-introducing the first problem. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425094#425094 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 18, 2014
eschlanser wrote: > > donjohnston wrote: > > > > > > "The engine analyzer people said it was designed for incandescent... " > > > Here's a simple solution. Use an incandescent bulb such as this: http://tinyurl.com/kw8usxc You are right, it is a solution. Just not very simple. Since I would have to scrap the circuit board that the LEDs are mounted to and design a new one. And since this is a incandescent bulb, it would have to be socketed. Which means redesigning the warning panel assembly to be deep enough to accept the new light bulb. Not sure how I would handle replacing the bulb when it burns out though. Or I could just scrap the whole warning panel altogether. Then I'd have to fill in that rectangular hole in the panel, drill holes for the 8 warning lights. Come up with the circuit design for the new warning lights. etc., etc., etc., Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425095#425095 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 18, 2014
> I prefer simpler designs and hope to publish one here soon, using no ICs and only six basic parts. It will do a "slow-fade dim-out". As promised, here is a basic Sexy Slow-Fadeout Cabin Light that is very rugged and very simple. I uses only six basic parts. The main high-current switch is a LM395 Indestructible Power Transistor, but any number of other NPN power transistors would do just fine. The timer stays on for about R x C seconds, which here is 32 seconds. You can change this as you like preferably with a higher-value resistor (because it's easier). The transistor needs some heatsinking if you want it to dim a very big bunch of LEDs. But some experimenting will determine what you need. Two notes: 1) The previous "De-Slumpifier" also works well for this task, and you don't need any "keep-alive" bus. 2) Cree sells 200/lumen per watt white leds now, so don't be stuck with the antiques ones if you can use these. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425098#425098 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/lamp_fade_out_timer_441.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R&J. Curtis" <RnJCurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
Date: Jun 18, 2014
Eric, my computer says Page not found when I try to open the attachment. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
> > >Technically the resistor did fix the problem (ghosting). But it >created a new problem (dim LED). So now I'm working on the second >problem while not re-introducing the first problem. That's the fact that does not make sense. The barefoot string of two LEDS and a resistor function with a current level on the order of 15 to 20 milliamps. (First sketch in the document I published). This is much lower than the typical incandescent lamp at 80+ milliamps. Adding the resistor (second sketch) adds another 12 to 14 milliamps for a total of 27 to 34 milliamps . . . much LOWER than the incandescent lamp being replaced. We can continue to flog this topic with all manner of cut, paste, try, suppose, wish and propose . . . with poor prospects for fixing it and poorer prospects for understanding root cause for the symptoms you've observed. The second sketch 'fix' should have NO effect on lamp intensity . . . the fact that it does have an effect says we don't know squat about what we're doing . . . yet. Hence, the 'dim LED' is a mystery that cannot be resolved without knowing the reason for what appears to be a reduction of available voltage. The experiments I asked you to conduct went toward resolving the mystery. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 18, 2014
Thanks Eric, the download worked for me. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425106#425106 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 19, 2014
Rumen asked two things that I should have mentioned. The mysterious resistor is the LED current-limiting resistor. Since I don't know what LEDs you are using I can't specify it, but basically the resistor is: R=((Vbus ) -- LED Voltage drop--1.2V) /amps you want the LEDs to run at. This should work at 28V too. with a 35V capacitor. You can use an amazing number of LEDs here in series/parallel, but when they turn off and the final appearance is difficult to predict without a bench test. So plan on that. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425127#425127 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2014
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
On 6/18/2014 6:21 PM, user9253 wrote: > > Thanks Eric, the download worked for me. > > -------- > Joe Gores > Heads up; The link does not work if access is attempted from an email. It does work if access is attempted from the forum. I normally read Matt's lists via email, & couldn't load the link. I clicked on the 'read the topic online' link, let that page load in my browser, and then downloaded the drawing using the link in the browser page. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean" <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
Date: Jun 19, 2014
> The mysterious resistor is the LED current-limiting resistor. Since I > don't know what LEDs you are using I can't specify it, but basically the > resistor is: > R=((Vbus ) -- LED Voltage drop--1.2V) /amps you want the LEDs to run at. > > This should work at 28V too. with a 35V capacitor. > > You can use an amazing number of LEDs here in series/parallel, but when > they turn off and the final appearance is difficult to predict without a > bench test. So plan on that. Eric, another thing you might consider is connecting the capacitor to the common on the switch and be able to select either +12V or Ground. This would give you the ability to use it as a delayed turn off or have the option of instant shut off. No extra components, just rewire the switch. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 19, 2014
A diode may be required in the main 12 Volt wire. If the light is on and then the master switch is shut off, other aircraft loads will be in parallel with R1 and short it to ground, thus no delay. If the light switch is turned on after the master switch is shut off, then there is no power available to turn on the transistor. Here is the desired the desired functionality as I see it: If the light switch is on and the master is on, then the light should stay on. If the light switch is on, when the master is turned off, the light should stay on for a while and then shut off automatically. If the master has been off and then the light switch is turned on, the light should come on for a while and then shut off automatically. If the light switch is off, the light should be off. Perhaps a new microprocessor-controlled product with the above features would sell. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425132#425132 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Off Delay Cabin Light
At 06:21 PM 6/18/2014, you wrote: > >Thanks Eric, the download worked for me. The LM395 is an interesting part for linear operations but it's not a very good switch. The full-ON saturation voltage for this part is about 1.5 volts. An alternative on Eric's theme would use a simple MOS-Fet . . . http://tinyurl.com/mtnd86d In the full-ON state, voltage drop across the FET would be quite low . . . millivolts. When given command of the cabin light during the delay-OFF operation, the light would stay full-ON until the transistor begins to loose conduction as the gate voltage falls. Assuming conductivity over a gate voltage decay from 4 to 2 volts, the time constants shown on the diagram will offer delay on the order of 1 to 2 minutes. Your results may vary . . . fiddle with the size of the 1M resistor to achieve your design goals. Bigger resistor - longer delay. I can't imagine any LED cabin light needing more than a couple hundred mA of operating current. The LED dome lights in my truck only run 120 mA and are plenty bright. At these current levels, no heat-sinking for the FET is necessary . . . bolting it to the box that houses the assembly will be plenty of heatsink for up to several amps of controlled lamp load. The only time the transistor dissipates significant energy is during the dimming interval. All other times it is full-OFF or full-ON and dissipates no significant heat. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2014
Subject: fuse link to replace fuse in low current applications?
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
I'm installing an 'alternative engine' using a fuel/ignition controller driving automotive style injectors & coil-near-plugs. My first draft for power distribution included individual fuses & B+ lines to each coil pack and to the injectors, to avoid one coil or injector failure taking out multiple the coils or injectors. Given the rarity of coil/injector failures, it seems reasonable to eliminate the multiple joints (along with weight & wiring complexity) of multiple fuses, & just use soldered-in fuse links instead of filling a fuse block with fuses. What say you? Thanks, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 19, 2014
Resistors can make the oil pressure LED the same brightness as the others under one set of conditions. But when the conditions change (reduced dimmer voltage) the brightness of all LEDs will no longer be the same. The only way for all LEDs to have the same brightness under all conditions is if each circuit has the same components. A relay can be used to switch the oil pressure LED to make that circuit the same as the other LEDs that use mechanical contacts. Here are possible relays to use: http://tinyurl.com/pt9yd6v or http://tinyurl.com/o3g77dc or http://tinyurl.com/q28mku6 Another option is to modify the other LED circuits to match the oil pressure circuit. Adding a diode to those other circuits might do the trick. The only way to find out is to try it. The relay is a sure thing but costs more and is harder to install and is less reliable then a solid state solution. Diodes may or may not work but are very inexpensive and easy to install. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425139#425139 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: fuse link to replace fuse in low current applications?
At 12:07 PM 6/19/2014, you wrote: >I'm installing an 'alternative engine' using a >fuel/ignition controller driving automotive >style injectors & coil-near-plugs. My first >draft for power distribution included individual >fuses & B+ lines to each coil pack and to the >injectors, to avoid one coil or injector failure >taking out multiple the coils or injectors. > >Given the rarity of coil/injector failures, it >seems reasonable to eliminate the multiple >joints (along with weight & wiring complexity) >of multiple fuses, & just use soldered-in fuse >links instead of filling a fuse block with fuses. It's a juggling act for risk. Your assessment appears sound. I think I'd use butt-spliced links and put the wires under the legacy 'fire sleeve' but that's a process detail. What size wires make up your feeders to the loads? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 12:47 PM 6/19/2014, you wrote: Resistors can make the oil pressure LED the same brightness as the others under one set of conditions. But when the conditions change (reduced dimmer voltage) the brightness of all LEDs will no longer be the same. Quite true. Stings of led's driven in parallel from a common dimmer will vistually track each other only when all the strings are identical. From a pure physics perspective, LED light output is proportional to the current in the device . . . for values at or below the device's rated operating point. The only way for all LEDs to have the same brightness under all conditions is if each circuit has the same components. A relay can be used to switch the oil pressure LED to make that circuit the same as the other LEDs that use mechanical contacts. Here are possible relays to use: http://tinyurl.com/pt9yd6v or http://tinyurl.com/o3g77dc or http://tinyurl.com/q28mku6 The quest for intensity tracking between the various indicators is purely a matter of average current through the devices. Suppose the annunciator panel featured in the start of this thread had two LEDs in some slots, and single LEDs in others. It's entirely possible that they could be made to appear identical at some level of illumination by juggling their series resistors . . . but a bit of pencil whipping of the numbers will show that as supply voltage is reduced, the current through a series string of 2 LEDs will fall off faster than for a single LED. The use of a relay to energize an LED string to emulate the performance of an oil pressure switch isn't the issue. For all practical purposes, hard contacts and transistors produce the same behavior when turned ON for any given level of 'balanced' illumination. The variances of configuration don't come into play until the illumination is adjusted to some new value. This is why duty cycle switched dimming works so well for mixed configurations of LED illumination. When you duty-cycle switch the LED, peak light output remains constant while the eye integrates a reduced average energy into a perceived level of brightness that will be more uniform across mixed configurations. I wrote the spec for a mix illumination dimmer control for the Gates Piaggio GP-180 program where the design goal was to dim 5v incandescent, 28v incandescent and and 115vac electro-luminescent from a single knob. Nobody stood up and offered a proposal for that spec (about 1985). With micro-controllers and lookup table driven power supplies, it could be done today but not easily back then. Joe is right, unless the constellation of illumination sources have the same configuration, they will not track each other well with simple adjustment of applied voltage. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fisher Paul A." <FisherPaulA(at)johndeere.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Date: Jun 19, 2014
I'm confused by this thread. Back to the original issue - why is it important that all of the LEDs in the annunciator panel have the same brightness? Don't you just need to know if any particular one is on or off? Aren't they used to indicate a problem? I would hope that during most flights they would all be off. And if more than one of them was on, I certainly wouldn't be worried about one being brighter or dimmer than another - I'd be busy looking for a place to land! I do appreciate the electronics discussion about the physics of getting them to the same brightness. I just don't understand why that is important in this use case. Paul A. Fisher RV7A N18PF -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 2:01 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Ghosting --> At 12:47 PM 6/19/2014, you wrote: Resistors can make the oil pressure LED the same brightness as the others under one set of conditions. But when the conditions change (reduced dimmer voltage) the brightness of all LEDs will no longer be the same. Quite true. Stings of led's driven in parallel from a common dimmer will vistually track each other only when all the strings are identical. From a pure physics perspective, LED light output is proportional to the current in the device . . . for values at or below the device's rated operating point. The only way for all LEDs to have the same brightness under all conditions is if each circuit has the same components. A relay can be used to switch the oil pressure LED to make that circuit the same as the other LEDs that use mechanical contacts. Here are possible relays to use: http://tinyurl.com/pt9yd6v or http://tinyurl.com/o3g77dc or http://tinyurl.com/q28mku6 The quest for intensity tracking between the various indicators is purely a matter of average current through the devices. Suppose the annunciator panel featured in the start of this thread had two LEDs in some slots, and single LEDs in others. It's entirely possible that they could be made to appear identical at some level of illumination by juggling their series resistors . . . but a bit of pencil whipping of the numbers will show that as supply voltage is reduced, the current through a series string of 2 LEDs will fall off faster than for a single LED. The use of a relay to energize an LED string to emulate the performance of an oil pressure switch isn't the issue. For all practical purposes, hard contacts and transistors produce the same behavior when turned ON for any given level of 'balanced' illumination. The variances of configuration don't come into play until the illumination is adjusted to some new value. This is why duty cycle switched dimming works so well for mixed configurations of LED illumination. When you duty-cycle switch the LED, peak light output remains constant while the eye integrates a reduced average energy into a perceived level of brightness that will be more uniform across mixed configurations. I wrote the spec for a mix illumination dimmer control for the Gates Piaggio GP-180 program where the design goal was to dim 5v incandescent, 28v incandescent and and 115vac electro-luminescent from a single knob. Nobody stood up and offered a proposal for that spec (about 1985). With micro-controllers and lookup table driven power supplies, it could be done today but not easily back then. Joe is right, unless the constellation of illumination sources have the same configuration, they will not track each other well with simple adjustment of applied voltage. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2014
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: fuse link to replace fuse in low current applications?
On 6/19/2014 1:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 12:07 PM 6/19/2014, you wrote: >> I'm installing an 'alternative engine' using a fuel/ignition >> controller driving automotive style injectors & coil-near-plugs. My >> first draft for power distribution included individual fuses & B+ >> lines to each coil pack and to the injectors, to avoid one coil or >> injector failure taking out multiple the coils or injectors. >> >> Given the rarity of coil/injector failures, it seems reasonable to >> eliminate the multiple joints (along with weight & wiring complexity) >> of multiple fuses, & just use soldered-in fuse links instead of >> filling a fuse block with fuses. > > It's a juggling act for risk. Your assessment appears > sound. I think I'd use butt-spliced links and put the > wires under the legacy 'fire sleeve' but that's a > process detail. What size wires make up your feeders > to the loads? > > > Bob . . . Design size *could* be as small as 22ga (actually, 20ga would be adequate for a single feed to power 4 ignition coils). The injectors get 22ga to each injector. I'd like to feed each coil & injector with 22ga, but realize that the 4-step-smaller criteria for the link is tough to achieve (26ga link). In the 'Book', it mentions a 4-6" length for the fuse link. Any reason not to go a bit shorter, with the link and an inch or two of the heavier wire under the 'fire sleeve'? Thanks, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Subject: fuse link to replace fuse in low current applications?
Date: Jun 19, 2014
> I think I'd use butt-spliced links Bob, just curious, would solder splices also be acceptable? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 19, 2014
FisherPaulA(at)johndeere. wrote: > I'm confused by this thread. Back to the original issue - why is it important that all of the LEDs in the annunciator panel have the same brightness? Don't you just need to know if any particular one is on or off? Aren't they used to indicate a problem? I would hope that during most flights they would all be off. And if more than one of them was on, I certainly wouldn't be worried about one being brighter or dimmer than another - I'd be busy looking for a place to land! > > I do appreciate the electronics discussion about the physics of getting them to the same brightness. I just don't understand why that is important in this use case. > > Paul A. Fisher > RV7A N18PF > > -- Valid question. The master warning panel (I should probably refer to it as an annunicator panel) also has indicators for when the fuel pump is on and pitot heat is on (those indicators are amber where the low oil pressure, door unsafe, etc. are red). So you're flying along at night and you have the pitot heat or fuel pump on. The LEDs are rather bright so you dim the indicators. Once you dim those LEDs to a comfortable brightness, that low oil pressure LED will not illuminate at all. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to get the voltage readings requested. I also got the MOSFET today so I'll give that a go as well. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425151#425151 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 20, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 07:49 PM 6/19/2014, you wrote: FisherPaulA(at)johndeere. wrote: > I'm confused by this thread. Back to the original issue - why is it important that all of the LEDs in the annunciator panel have the same brightness? Valid question. The master warning panel (I should probably refer to it as an annunicator panel) also has indicators for when the fuel pump is on and pitot heat is on (those indicators are amber where the low oil pressure, door unsafe, etc. are red). So you're flying along at night and you have the pitot heat or fuel pump on. The LEDs are rather bright so you dim the indicators. Once you dim those LEDs to a comfortable brightness, that low oil pressure LED will not illuminate at all. That's another concern that we wrestle with in the TC side of the house . . . visibility in sunlight. Most DIY annunciators flying in OBAM aircraft would not been welcome on the panel of a TC aircraft. That's one of the reasons that TC annunciators are relatively much more expensive . . . and before LEDs . . . ran HOT due to the utilization of at least TWO, 1W lamps per feature. Light up very many slots at the same time and the legacy incandescent annunciator panel can become quite warm. Two-lamps per slot was also a hedge against lamp failure. The loss of one lamp in an indicator slot would be noticed during pre-flight tests but would not KILL the annunciator's ability to warn. I think the modern annunciators with more than one LED are simply concerned with sunlight visibility. Prospects for putting another L1011 full of people into the Everglades for lack of a light bulb are pretty much a thing of the past. OBAM aviation annunciators achieve sun light visibility by mounting under a glare shield that prevents direct exposure to sun . . . or perhaps it's not high on the builder's list of design goals. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to get the voltage readings requested. I also got the MOSFET today so I'll give that a go as well. Great! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 20, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 03:15 PM 6/19/2014, you wrote: > > >I'm confused by this thread. Back to the original issue - why is it >important that all of the LEDs in the annunciator panel have the >same brightness? Don't you just need to know if any particular one >is on or off? Aren't they used to indicate a problem? I would hope >that during most flights they would all be off. And if more than >one of them was on, I certainly wouldn't be worried about one being >brighter or dimmer than another - I'd be busy looking for a place to land! > >I do appreciate the electronics discussion about the physics of >getting them to the same brightness. I just don't understand why >that is important in this use case. It's a 'trickle down' from legacy design goals for most sophisticated aircraft (read - has more than one red light right next to another on the panel). Jobs I've had working on 6-figure airplanes catered to customers who expected such uniformity and a regulatory agency that expected conformity. But you're right, the absolute functionality of the indicator is not diluted by a difference in purposeful illumination. The thread was launched when it was discovered that an engine monitor's oil pressure warning output presented some light-off leakage that would not have affected an incandescent lamp's OFF state. However, still enough to excite those maddingly efficient LED into visible light output when they were supposed to be dark . . . again not so big a deal in daylight but irksome at night. The brightness thing didn't bubble up until it was noticed that 'fixes' for the lamp-off-leakage also appeared to influence brightness. That didn't make sense from the perspective of the electronics . . . but it won't become clear without more detailed measurements of the various conditions I posed in the 'grand experiment' posting . . . which is where the quest for understanding kind of fizzled. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 20, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: fuse link to replace fuse in low current applications?
At 04:35 PM 6/19/2014, you wrote: > > > I think I'd use butt-spliced links > >Bob, just curious, would solder splices also be acceptable? Sure . . . lap joints under heat=shrink works. http://tinyurl.com/dgg2nb Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 20, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: P-leads
At 12:37 PM 3/24/2014, you wrote: > >The concept of a "fuse" to keep faults in a tachometer from >disabling an ignition needs to be stamped out, it is a dangerous >misconception. I know of at least one incident where this almost >caused a fatal crash. It takes very little current through a P lead >from a magneto or points wire in a Kettering ignition to disrupt >performance of the ignition. Can you depend on this amount of >current blowing a fuse? Is the resistor going to open if there is a >fault? Is the engine going to keep running well if the far end of >the resistor is shorted to ground or +12? Not unless it has been >tested to do so. Yes . . . these techniques have been tested many times . . . except for the fuse . . . I don't recall seeing fuses recommended for this application but agreed . . . they're a bad idea. Having said that, let us consider the use of resistors to sample the really trashy signal that appears across the points of either a magneto or Kettering system. The points are already paralleled by a capacitor on the order of .1 to .3 uF. The capacitor is necessary in both systems to 'resonate' with the primary winding such that rate of rise for voltage across spreading points is slower than that level which establishes an arc in the gap. The source impedance of this 'ringing' energy source is pretty low in the Kettering system . . . on the order of 10 ohms, lower still in a magneto. Yes, the voltages at the points can exceed 200 volts during the spark interval . . . but the idea that a 1,000 ohms or larger isolation resistor presents a meaningful load simply doesn't compute. >There are many tach designs that work without an ignition pickup. >VDO and other companies make programmable tachs that can be set to >take a signal from one phase of an alternator output, or an >inductive pickup from a flywheel or magneto case. Proper design of a >tach could also yield failsafe operation but that's still putting a >lot of faith in something you haven't tested. The "proof by >assertion" that I've seen from a few instrument vendors isn't really >confidence-inspiring. I've never heard of this being an issue. I've sampled p-lead and Kettering points through resistive attenuators dozens of times over the years with nary a concern for any ill effects being reflected back to the source. Magneto p-lead signals are really trashy, I have found it useful to run the attenuated signal through 4 poles of band pass filtering before squaring it up to drive the digital interpreters. A fuse doesn't even make sense. The signal being observed is WAAYyyyy to big as a digital signal source . . . attenuation on the order of 30:1 is the first thing you need to do with it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 20, 2014
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: P-leads
Please give a quick definition of the ignition designs and techniques that are being discussed. I need some background to follow the discussion. Thanks Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 06/20/2014 12:50 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 12:37 PM 3/24/2014, you wrote: >> >> >> The concept of a "fuse" to keep faults in a tachometer from disabling >> an ignition needs to be stamped out, it is a dangerous misconception. >> I know of at least one incident where this almost caused a fatal >> crash. It takes very little current through a P lead from a magneto or >> points wire in a Kettering ignition to disrupt performance of the >> ignition. Can you depend on this amount of current blowing a fuse? Is >> the resistor going to open if there is a fault? Is the engine going to >> keep running well if the far end of the resistor is shorted to ground >> or +12? Not unless it has been tested to do so. > > Yes . . . these techniques have been tested many times . . . > except for the fuse . . . I don't recall seeing fuses > recommended for this application but agreed . . . they're > a bad idea. > > Having said that, let us consider the use of resistors to > sample the really trashy signal that appears across the points > of either a magneto or Kettering system. ========================== SNIP ==================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 20, 2014
Attached are the voltage drops for the LEDs and resistors. The engine analyzer alarm is a flashing warning so it was difficult getting a solid reading. If I missed something, let me know and I'll get it. Thanks, Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425178#425178 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/led_circuit_627.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 20, 2014
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Weren't the LEDs in series? If so, if one fails open, you lose both. On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 7:49 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > At 07:49 PM 6/19/2014, you wrote: > don@velocity-xl.com> > > > FisherPaulA(at)johndeere. wrote: > > I'm confused by this thread. Back to the original issue - why is it > important that all of the LEDs in the annunciator panel have the same > brightness? > > Valid question. > > The master warning panel (I should probably refer to it as an annunicator > panel) also has indicators for when the fuel pump is on and pitot heat is > on (those indicators are amber where the low oil pressure, door unsafe, > etc. are red). > > So you're flying along at night and you have the pitot heat or fuel pump > on. The LEDs are rather bright so you dim the indicators. Once you dim > those LEDs to a comfortable brightness, that low oil pressure LED will not > illuminate at all. > > That's another concern that we wrestle with in the TC > side of the house . . . visibility in sunlight. > Most DIY annunciators flying in OBAM aircraft would not > been welcome on the panel of a TC aircraft. That's > one of the reasons that TC annunciators are relatively > much more expensive . . . and before LEDs . . . ran HOT > due to the utilization of at least TWO, 1W lamps per > feature. Light up very many slots at the same time and the > legacy incandescent annunciator panel can become quite > warm. > > Two-lamps per slot was also a hedge against > lamp failure. The loss of one lamp in an > indicator slot would be noticed during pre-flight > tests but would not KILL the annunciator's ability > to warn. > > I think the modern annunciators with more than > one LED are simply concerned with sunlight visibility. > Prospects for putting another L1011 full of people into > the Everglades for lack of a light bulb are pretty much > a thing of the past. > > OBAM aviation annunciators achieve sun light > visibility by mounting under a glare shield that > prevents direct exposure to sun . . . or perhaps > it's not high on the builder's list of design goals. > > Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to get the voltage readings requested. I > also got the MOSFET today so I'll give that a go as well. > > Great! > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 20, 2014
That one string that had different drops was bothering me. :( I checked it again but on a different string and got the attached. I'm guessing that one of the LEDs in the first test is a little out of spec. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425183#425183 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/led_circuit_2_904.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 20, 2014
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: > Weren't the LEDs in series? If so, if one fails open, you lose both. I think that assumes incandescent bulbs. The failure rate with LEDs isn't anywhere near what you have with incandescent bulbs. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425185#425185 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 20, 2014
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Actually, he's correct, Don.- Two LEDs in series will give you a failure rate of Pr1 + Pr2.- The only reason I can think of to use two LEDs in ser ies is to get twice the illumination while minimizing resistors.- If you put two LEDs in parallel, each one has to have its own resistor to balance (control) the current flow through each one.=0A=0AIf they are in parallel a nd one LED fails, then at least you'll have half the original illumination to indicate a failed LED.- If you accept Pr1 + Pr2 as your failure rate, then it's your choice.=0A=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>____ ____________________________=0A> From: donjohnston <don@velocity-xl.com>=0A >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 9:43 P M=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Ghosting=0A> =0A>=0A>--> AeroElect ric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>=0A>=0A>=0A> ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:=0A>> Weren't the LEDs in series? If so, if o ne fails open, you lose both. =0A>=0A>=0A>I think that assumes incandescent bulbs. The failure rate with LEDs isn't anywhere near what you have with i ncandescent bulbs.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>h ttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425185#425185=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> - - - - - - - -=0A - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List =========0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
henador_titzoff(at)yahoo. wrote: > Actually, he's correct, Don. Two LEDs in series will give you a failure rate of Pr1 + Pr2. The only reason I can think of to use two LEDs in series is to get twice the illumination while minimizing resistors. If you put two LEDs in parallel, each one has to have its own resistor to balance (control) the current flow through each one. > > If they are in parallel and one LED fails, then at least you'll have half the original illumination to indicate a failed LED. If you accept Pr1 + Pr2 as your failure rate, then it's your choice. > > Henador Titzoff > > I'm using two LEDs for brightness and reducing the resistor. I am well aware that a failure of one LED will result in a failure of indication. Thank you. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425196#425196 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
Attached is my plan for implementing the MOSFET. I have a feeling (given the voltage at S is going to be pretty much non-existent) that the 12v connection to G is going to be needed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425197#425197 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mosfet_196.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
The the brightness problem will likely be solved by the MOSFET transistor as long as it does not drop much voltage. If it doesn't work out and it is desired not to use a relay, then another option is to make the other LED circuits drop the same same voltage as the Engine Analyzer Alarm solid state switch, which is 1.5 to 1.6 volts according to your voltage measurements. An easy way to drop that voltage is to add a red LED in series to the other annunciator circuits. Then each LED circuit will have the same voltage drop. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425199#425199 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
The output of the Engine Analyzer Alarm should not be connected directly to positive voltage because it will be a short circuit. Connect a 10K resistor between the gate and source instead. The dimmer output should be connected directly to the MOSFET source. The load (LEDs and resistor) should be connected between the drain and ground. A zener diode (15 to 20 volts) could be connected between the gate and source to protect the MOSFET against voltage spikes. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. I do not want to give bad advice. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425200#425200 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Date: Jun 21, 2014
The inherent inversion of this circuit will turn the lamp on when the EMS turns it off... not so good. Vern -----Original Message----- From: donjohnston Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2014 5:37 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Ghosting Attached is my plan for implementing the MOSFET. I have a feeling (given the voltage at S is going to be pretty much non-existent) that the 12v connection to G is going to be needed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425197#425197 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mosfet_196.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
user9253 wrote: > The output of the Engine Analyzer Alarm should not be connected directly to positive voltage because it will be a short circuit. Connect a 10K resistor between the gate and source instead. > The dimmer output should be connected directly to the MOSFET source. The load (LEDs and resistor) should be connected between the drain and ground. > A zener diode (15 to 20 volts) could be connected between the gate and source to protect the MOSFET against voltage spikes. > Someone please correct me if I am wrong. I do not want to give bad advice. I probably mis-interpreted the original suggestion. Thanks for the correction. user9253 wrote: > If it doesn't work out and it is desired not to use a relay, then another option is to make the other LED circuits drop the same same voltage as the Engine Analyzer Alarm solid state switch, which is 1.5 to 1.6 volts according to your voltage measurements. An easy way to drop that voltage is to add a red LED in series to the other annunciator circuits. Then each LED circuit will have the same voltage drop. That was my original backup plan. I thought that there would be a better solution. And this is on a PCB. I have a little flexibility (adding a resistor or two), but adding another LED wouldn't work. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425202#425202 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
> this is on a PCB. I have a little flexibility (adding a resistor or two), but adding another LED wouldn't work. I did not mean to locate a red LED next to the other LEDs. I meant to add a red LED on the circuit board, out of sight. It can mounted as easily as a resistor. Red LEDs have about the same voltage drop as the Engine Analyzer Alarm, which is about 1.5 volts. With each LED circuit dropping the same voltage, they should have the same brightness, in theory anyway. I have never built this circuit. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425203#425203 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 2014
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Don & Joe,=0A=0AI think this is a case of there being more than one way to skin a cat.- Joe is just changing the MOSFET from a low-side to a high-si de switch, which will work fine as well.=0A=0AThe gate zener isn't a bad id ea (it will protect the gate against wild voltage excursions on the bus), b ut is probably unnecessary; this MOSFET will tolerate a 30V difference betw een gate and source.- For the same reason, it's safe to use 12V as gate p ull-up (through a resistor!) instead of the variable dimmer output. -Agai n, pay your money and take your choice.=0A=0ADefinitely heed Joe's advice r e *not* tying the gate directly to 12V.- This would probably not end well for your engine analyzer's alarm circuit!=0A=0AI've attached a diagram of my suggestion. -Let me know if it doesn't come through.=0A=0AEric=0A=0A =0AOn Jun 21, 2014, at 7:08 AM, "user9253" wrote:=0A> T he output of the Engine Analyzer Alarm should not be connected directly to positive voltage because it will be a short circuit.- Connect a 10K resis tor between the gate and source instead.=0A> The dimmer output should be co nnected directly to the MOSFET source.- The load (LEDs and resistor) shou ld be connected between the drain and ground.=0A> A zener diode (15 to 20 v olts) could be connected between the gate and source to protect the MOSFET against voltage spikes.=0A> Someone please correct me if I am wrong.- I d o not want to give bad advice.=0A> =0A> --------=0A> Joe Gores ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
To turn on a P-channel MOSFET, a negative voltage must be applied to the gate with respect to the source. If the load is connected between the source and positive supply, then the source is positive when the MOSFET is off. But as soon as the MOSFET starts to conduct, the source will then become negative and the gate is no longer negative in respect to the source. The MOSFET will then shut off, (if it ever actually turned on) Here is a website that shows how N-Channel and P-Channel MOSFETs are wired. http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/3599/basic-p-type-mosfet-question -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425211#425211 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
Unfortunately, I am way outside my element. Not quite sure how to wire this sucker now. :( Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425212#425212 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 2014
From: Ken <kleh(at)dialupatcost.ca>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
If Radio Shack still sells the paperback comic style books by Forrest Mimms III, there is a great go to book for simple circuits "Getting Started in Electronics" cat.No. 276-5003. My copy was $3.59 years ago and as an occasional hobbyist I often refer to it when starting a new project. Highly recommended for understanding and wiring this circuit. Ken On 21/06/2014 2:31 PM, donjohnston wrote: > > Unfortunately, I am way outside my element. Not quite sure how to wire this sucker now. :( > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 2014
From: David Josephson <dlj04(at)josephson.com>
Subject: Re: fuse link to replace fuse in low current applications?
>The concept of a "fuse" to keep faults in a tachometer from >disabling an ignition needs to be stamped out, it is a dangerous >misconception. I know of at least one incident where this almost >caused a fatal crash. It takes very little current through a P lead >from a magneto or points wire in a Kettering ignition to disrupt >performance of the ignition. Can you depend on this amount of >current blowing a fuse? Is the resistor going to open if there is a >fault? Is the engine going to keep running well if the far end of >the resistor is shorted to ground or +12? Not unless it has been >tested to do so. Yes . . . these techniques have been tested many times . . . except for the fuse . . . I don't recall seeing fuses recommended for this application but agreed . . . they're a bad idea. Having said that, let us consider the use of resistors to sample the really trashy signal that appears across the points of either a magneto or Kettering system. Yes, a resistor would be the right answer, and easy enough to test for whether ignition operation is compromised. >tach could also yield failsafe operation but that's still putting a >lot of faith in something you haven't tested. The "proof by >assertion" that I've seen from a few instrument vendors isn't really >confidence-inspiring. I've never heard of this being an issue. I've sampled p-lead and Kettering points through resistive attenuators dozens of times over the years with nary a concern for any ill effects being reflected back to the source. The case I'm aware of involves a glass-cockpit display and a points-and-coil ignition, which when connected to the ignition lead caused missing, and would sometimes cut out entirely at higher rpm. I do not know what the failure mode was, but the makers of this device didn't seem to understand that the spikes on the line could easily exceed 200 volts. It was rumored that the bypass capacitors on the input lines were rated at 50 volts, although I have not confirmed that (which is also why I am not identifying the device.) You can see what would happen if the spikes caused arcing in a bypass cap, which then failed. The point is, an external resistor would both provide the attenuation needed and prevent a failure. You could test it by grounding the instrument end, or connecting it to +12, and confirming the engine would still run properly no matter what happened. Magneto p-lead signals are really trashy, I have found it useful to run the attenuated signal through 4 poles of band pass filtering before squaring it up to drive the digital interpreters. A fuse doesn't even make sense. The signal being observed is WAAYyyyy to big as a digital signal source . . . attenuation on the order of 30:1 is the first thing you need to do with it. Yes, that's what I was responding to. Much earlier in this thread, someone suggested that a fuse would prevent an instrument failure from compromising the ignition. It won't. David Josephson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 2014
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Just finished reading it, I second the recommendation. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 06/21/2014 02:13 PM, Ken wrote: > > If Radio Shack still sells the paperback comic style books by Forrest > Mimms III, there is a great go to book for simple circuits "Getting > Started in Electronics" cat.No. 276-5003. My copy was $3.59 years ago > and as an occasional hobbyist I often refer to it when starting a new > project. Highly recommended for understanding and wiring this circuit. > Ken > > On 21/06/2014 2:31 PM, donjohnston wrote: >> <don@velocity-xl.com> >> >> Unfortunately, I am way outside my element. Not quite sure how to >> wire this sucker now. :( >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
Gents, Sorry, I was apparently groggy this morning and had N and P-channel devices mixed up in my head. Joe is absolutely correct; please ignore my earlier diagram. I'm not at my computer and won't be for several days, so I can't make a new one. I'll try to explain it in words... 1. Connect dimmer output directly to MOSFET source. 2. At MOSFET drain, install current limiting resistor and LEDs in series, with the last LED connected to ground. 3. Install a pull-up resistor of 10-100k between MOSFET gate and source. 4. Connect engine analyzer alarm output to MOSFET gate. So, two connections at source: dimmer output and pull-up resistor. One connection at drain: resistor and LED string. Two connections at gate: pull-up resistor and alarm output. Hope that's understandable. Best I can do standing in an airport terminal waiting to board... Cheers, and sincere apologies for causing so much confusion! Thank you, Joe. Good to have smart guys QC-ing everything on here. Eric On Jun 21, 2014, at 11:09 AM, "user9253" wrote: > To turn on a P-channel MOSFET, a negative voltage must be applied to the gate with respect to the source. If the load is connected between the source and positive supply, then the source is positive when the MOSFET is off. But as soon as the MOSFET starts to conduct, the source will then become negative and the gate is no longer negative in respect to the source. The MOSFET will then shut off, (if it ever actually turned on) > Here is a website that shows how N-Channel and P-Channel MOSFETs are wired. http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/3599/basic-p-type-mosfet-question > > -------- > Joe Gores ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
Okay... The MOSFET approach isn't going to work. :( The LEDs and resistors are on a circuit board. This type of change isn't going to work given the constraints of the board. So I guess I'll have to fall back to my plan B and add resistors to dim all the other LEDs so they're about the same as that pesky engine analyzer. Maybe Bob will have an idea. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425221#425221 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
> Unfortunately, I am way outside my element. Not quite sure how to wire this sucker now. Not to worry, use Eric's (edpav8r) last post as a guide and draw a new circuit. Post it and others will offer suggestions. Diodes added to the bright LED circuits is starting to look easier, if it works. I think that it is worth a try. Two of 1N4148 in series will drop about 1.5 volts when conducting 20 ma and will drop 1.6 volts at 30 ma, according to the data sheet. That will equal the voltage drop across the Engine Analyzer Alarm and hopefully make all LEDs the same brightness. I have some extra diodes that I could mail to you if you wanted to try them. Of course you already have the P-Channel MOSFET. Use this circuit http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/3599/basic-p-type-mosfet-question and ignore the N-Channel circuit. Substitute your dimmer for the power supply, use your 390 ohm for the load resistor. Put your LED in series with the 390 ohm load resistor. Connect the Engine Analyzer Alarm output and the pull-up resistor to the gate. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425222#425222 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
Dan, I would try adding 2 diodes in series instead of adding resistors. The diodes are very small, maybe even smaller than the resistors that you have. They should fit on the circuit board. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425223#425223 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 2014
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Instead of dimming all the other ones. Can the problem one be replaced with a brighter one so that in it's lower than maximum light output mode, which the current one is apparently in, it is the same brightness as the others? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 06/21/2014 04:49 PM, donjohnston wrote: > > Okay... The MOSFET approach isn't going to work. :( > > The LEDs and resistors are on a circuit board. This type of change isn't going to work given the constraints of the board. > > So I guess I'll have to fall back to my plan B and add resistors to dim all the other LEDs so they're about the same as that pesky engine analyzer. > > Maybe Bob will have an idea. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425221#425221 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Z14 question about adding in external power Piper style
jack
Date: Jun 22, 2014
I have a question about: Z14 question about adding in external power Piper style jack I see where you can add it in to the main battery contactor on the battery side to charge the battery without having to energize the main battery cont actor, but is there a way to also supply power to the AUX battery in the sa me way? I thought about just running a wire between the two but then we just made a batterys connected at all times (not good right?) Then I thought Diode, but that would have to be one HUGE diode to handle th e power right ? [cid:image001.png(at)01CF8D97.6E24D740] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: fuse link to replace fuse in low current applications?
The case I'm aware of involves a glass-cockpit display and a points-and-coil ignition, which when connected to the ignition lead caused missing, and would sometimes cut out entirely at higher rpm. I do not know what the failure mode was, but the makers of this device didn't seem to understand that the spikes on the line could easily exceed 200 volts. It was rumored that the bypass capacitors on the input lines were rated at 50 volts, although I have not confirmed that (which is also why I am not identifying the device.) You can see what would happen if the spikes caused arcing in a bypass cap, which then failed. The point is, an external resistor would both provide the attenuation needed and prevent a failure. You could test it by grounding the instrument end, or connecting it to +12, and confirming the engine would still run properly no matter what happened. Clearly, any supplier is remiss in their duty when offering an accessory designed to get rpm data from the ignition system without vetting failure modes effects. If ANYONE becomes aware of a same or similar case, pleased let me know about it. The work-arounds are simple and safe . . . it's been done with reliability for decades. I'd be pleased to get in touch with designers to see if a fix can be implemented. It borders on foolish to spend a bucket load of $time$ on the development and marketing of otherwise useful product with easily cured nasty habits. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Question about Electrically dependent engine and power
based on z14
Date: Jun 22, 2014
Okay second question on z14 I have a Electrically dependent engine and power based on z14 I see that we are using a rectifier diode to supply power from two sources (eng batte ry buss and aux battery buss) Which would always be hot (hence battery buss), is there a reason to not co nnecting it on the regular main buss and AUX buss (my guess would be to av oid a contactor having to be closed, but if you have two sources of power i sn't that over kill?) What am I not seeing here why we connect direct to th e battery busses ? [cid:image002.png(at)01CF8D9B.18462050] ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2014
Laying in bed thinking about this and couldn't sleep... On Jun 21, 2014, at 4:49 PM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > Okay... The MOSFET approach isn't going to work. :( > > The LEDs and resistors are on a circuit board. This type of change isn't going to work given the constraints of the board. Don, I presume this is because your board has a common trace that feeds dimmer output to all of the cells in the annunciator panel, with each cell separately switched to ground for activation. If so, could you use a razor blade to cut the PCB trace for this "dimmer bus" on either side of the oil pressure cell, install a jumper wire to bypass this cell, then feed the oil pressure cell directly from the MOSFET drain? Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: How to decide if a heat sink is required for a Rect
Bridge
Date: Jun 22, 2014
T2theSBJIGhhdmUgdGhlc2UgUmVjdCBCcmlkZ2UNCg0KR0JQQyBTZXJpZXM8aHR0cDovL3d3dy52 aXNoYXkuY29tL2RvYz85MzU3NT4NCg0KRGlnaWtleSBnYnBjMzUwMmENCg0KDQoNCjM1IGFtcCB2 ZXJzaW9uDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KSSBwbGFuIEkgdXNpbmcgdGhlbSB0byBjb25uZWN0IGEgZGV2aWNl IGZyb20gdHdvIGRpZmZlcmVudCBkYyBiYXR0ZXJpZXMNCg0KVG8gcnVuIGEgbG9hZCBvZiBhYm91 dCA2IGFtcHMgY29udGludW91cw0KDQpUaGlzIGlzIGEgY29tcG9zaXRlIGFpcmZyYW1lIHNvIG5v IHBsYWNlIHRvIGJvbHQgZGlyZWN0bHkgdG8gbWV0YWwNCg0KDQoNCjEpICAgICAgSXMgYSBoZWF0 IHNpbmsgcmVxdWlyZWQgPw0KDQoyKSAgICAgIFdvdWxkIGl0IGJlIGEgZ29vZCBpZGVhIGlmIG9u ZSBpcyBub3QgcmVxdWlyZWQNCg0KMykgICAgICBIb3cgZG8gd2UgdGVsbCBob3cgYmlnIG9mIGEg aGVhdCBzaW5rIHdlIG5lZWQgPw0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCldvdWxkIGEgZGlnaWtleSBwYXJ0IG51bWJl ciBoczExNCAgd29yayBwcm9wZXJseSA/DQoNCkhvdyBjYW4gd2UgdGVsbCA/DQoNCg0KDQpUaGFu a3MNCg0KSmVmZi4NCg= ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2014
Here's (what I think is) the correct circuit. Still not sure I can integrate this into the existing PCB though. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425262#425262 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/led_circuit_3_102.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2014
Your LED circuit 3.pdf looks correct to me. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425266#425266 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Question about Electrically dependent engine and
power based
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2014
There is more than one way to wire an electrically dependent engine. The important thing is that no single failure will stop the engine. The designer must look at each component and ask, "If this part fails, what will happen and what is the backup plan." Connecting directly to the battery eliminates some failure points, but still leaves the battery connections. If you want to get engine power from a different location than the battery bus, that is OK as long as there is a plan B in case something fails. Plan B should preferably include automatic (diodes) switching to another source or to another path from a single source. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425268#425268 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sprocket <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: How to decide if a heat sink is required for a
Rect Bridge
Date: Jun 22, 2014
It looks like you will only dissipate about 5 watts continuous power, which i s well within the capability of the device. However, when you mount it, put about a 3x3 piece of .063 aluminum underneath as a heat spreader to protect the composite surface. Use a tiny amount of thermal grease between the cas e and heat spreader. Vern ========================== ========================== Sent from my iThing. It is responsible for all gramma and typo terrors. > On Jun 21, 2014, at 10:25 PM, "Jeffrey W. Skiba" wrote: > > Okay I have these Rect Bridge > GBPC Series > Digikey gbpc3502a > > 35 amp version > > > I plan I using them to connect a device from two different dc batteries > To run a load of about 6 amps continuous > This is a composite airframe so no place to bolt directly to metal > > 1) Is a heat sink required ? > 2) Would it be a good idea if one is not required > 3) How do we tell how big of a heat sink we need ? > > > Would a digikey part number hs114 work properly ? > How can we tell ? > > Thanks > Jeff. > =C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9E=C3=99=C3=8A%=C2=A2=C2=BD 4=C3=93M4}=C2=A7=1Er=B9=C2=AB=B0=C3=C3=A7{=07(=C2=BA=C2=B8=C5 =BE=C2=AD8^=01=C3=C3=A8=12W=C5=93=C2=B6=C2=B8=C5=93.+-=12f=C2=A2=9D Z+=C2=BAe,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6 =C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=06=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AB azf=C2=A7=C3=88=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B6=C3=ABb=93+bz=C3=8B.r=16=C2=AC.+-R=7F =C3=92=C2=B9=C2=BB=1C=C2=AE*m=C5-=B0=C3=C2=AD=C3=88b=C2=BD=C3=A4=C5 =BEj=C2=B7!=0E=C5=92'=93-=C2=9D=C3=AC6=C2=B2=06=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3 -=C2=A1j=C3=91@@=C3=B8h=C2=B6=B9!j=C2=B7=C5=A1=C2=9D=C3=99=C2=AEr=19 =C2=AEr=19=C2=A8=C2=AD=C3=C2=A1=C2=AD=C3=A7=C3=A1=C2=B6=C3=9A=7F=C3=0C 0=84=A2=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B1=C3=8A&=C3=BC=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=06=C2=AD =C2=A2=C2=B0=1E=C2=AE=C2=81%y=C3=8Bk=B0=C3=82=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=98m=C2=B6 =C5=B8=C3=C3=83=0C&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C25=C2=AB=C3=A2=C2=81 =C2=ABh=C2=AC=07=C2=AB I^r=C3=9A=C3=A2p=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B7=C3=B6=C5=92=014N4 =82=AC=99X@E9=15=0CI&=C2z =C3=9Ej=C3=97(=C5=BE=C3=97=C2=A7=C2=B5=C2 =A9l=C2=A1=C2=AB=C3=9A=C5-V=BA=A2=C3=AB=C3=A2j=C3=98^Y=C3=C3 =85=C2=A2=C2=BB=C2=C2=B1=C2=A8ky=C3=B8m=C2=B6=C5=B8=C3~=C5-=C3=AE=C5 =A1=C3=89=C5=A1=C2=B6=C2=BA'=B0=C3=8B=1C=C2=A2hm=C2=B6=C5=B8=C3~=C5 -=C3=AE=C5=A1=C3=89=C5=A1=C2=B6=C2=BA'=B0=C3=8B=1C=C2=A2o=C3=9A.+- =B0=C3=AD=C2=AE&=C3=AE=C2=B6*'Y=C3=C3=92=C5-=C3=97=9C =C2=A9=C3=A4=C3=8A=B9=C5=B8=C2=A2=C2=BC=C2=A8=C2=BA=C2=B8=1E=C2=9D=C3 =C3=A8=C2=BA=C3=8B.=C2=C5=A1+=C2=B4=C3=86=C2=AD=C2=B4:=C3=9A=93W =B9=C5-=C3=8B@vh=C2=A7j=1A=C3=9E~=1Bm=C2=A7=C3=C3=B0=C3=83 =C5 =A1=C2=B6=C2=BA'=B0=C3=8B=1C=C2=A2o=C3=9C=C2=A2{k=B0=C2=BB=C2=AD =C5-=B0=C3=A1=C2=B6=C3=9A=7F=C3=0C0=84=A2=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2 =B1=C3=8A&=C3=BD=C3=8A'=C2=B6=C2=B8=BA=C2=BA=C3=98=C2=A8=C5=B8=C3=B6=C2 o=C3=B7=C3=A8=C5=BE=C3=9F=C3=A9=C2=AD=C3=AF=C3=9B=C2=A1=C3=9C=C2 -=C3=99=C2=A5 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z14 question about adding in external power Piper
style jack
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2014
Looking at figure Z-31B, Piper Style Ground Power Jack, there is no indication that the Ground PWR Contactor is energized. Once that contactor is energized during a jump start, it will hold through its contacts. If the pilot neglects to open the circuit breaker (or is not aware of the need), the ground PWR contactor coil will discharge the battery, similar to forgetting to shutting off the master. I suggest that an indicator light be connected across the contactor coil of the ground PWR contactor. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425270#425270 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2014
Definite improvement! Probably usable. There's a small range where the MOSFET controlled LEDs go out before the others. But it's such a small range that I doubt it's an issue. Now I have to see if it's a doable mod to the PCB. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425273#425273 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2014
edpav8r(at)yahoo.com wrote: > Don, > > New diagram looked perfect. Glad to hear it works acceptably well. Hope you can bodge it into your PCB for a permanent solution! > > Eric Thanks. Looks like I may be able to mod the board (I wish it didn't cost so much to get these small one-off boards made :( ). I was worried that I was going to run into the same problem with the LR3C voltage regulator low voltage warning. But B&C apparently did it right. A 1.5K resistor across the LEDs eliminates the ghosting but doesn't dim the LEDs when on. WooHoo! :D -Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425280#425280 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 22, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Your voltage measurements confirmed that the annunciator output from your engine analyzer is decidedly not capable of driving an incandescent bulb . . . in fact, it appears that this particular output is not well thought out. Have you had any contact with the factory about this? What brand and model analyzer are we talking about. Are the installation manuals available on line? >Thanks. Looks like I may be able to mod the board (I wish it didn't >cost so much to get these small one-off boards made :( ). Emacs! This is the best alternative for 'buffering' the output port as it was handed to you. The size of the resistor still leaves some risk for 'ghosting'; there might be sufficient leakage in their output to produce a source-gate voltage that is greater than the threshold voltage on the FET . . . typically on the order of 2-3 volts. A resistor on the order of 470 ohms is suggested. >I was worried that I was going to run into the same problem with the >LR3C voltage regulator low voltage warning. But B&C apparently did >it right. A 1.5K resistor across the LEDs eliminates the ghosting >but doesn't dim the LEDs when on. WooHoo! :D That incandescent lamp driver was designed by yours truly about 30 years ago for some devices being offered to Cessna and Beech . . . it got folded into the B&C products when I did their early designs. But nobody was driving LEDs back then. Turn-off resistors had to be added to accomodate the conversion. The FET buffer is the obvious 'fix' in this instance but should not have been necessary. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 22, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 08:57 AM 6/22/2014, you wrote: > >Definite improvement! Probably usable. There's a small range where >the MOSFET controlled LEDs go out before the others. The Perhelion dimmer is linear as opposed to duty-cycle switched so yes, at some lower voltage, the gate-turn-on voltage for the FET becomes a significant part of the supply voltage out of the dimmer and LEDs controlled by the FET will go out first. A refinement of the design could consider duty-cycle switched dimming or going to logic-level gate FET with a much lower threshold voltage. This has been an excellent study in the relative chaos that can arise from poorly tested products. We were recently discussing how poorly designed tachometer circuits for sampling ignition signals can add risk affecting engine performance. This "ghosting" problem is a case where less than passing grades on a manufacturer's homework caused a lot of unnecessary work-arounds that are STILL less than ideal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2014
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > Your voltage measurements confirmed that the annunciator > output from your engine analyzer is decidedly not capable > of driving an incandescent bulb . . . in fact, it appears > that this particular output is not well thought out. Have > you had any contact with the factory about this? What > brand and model analyzer are we talking about. Are the > installation manuals available on line? But... It does work with an incandescent bulb... As long as it's wired to 12v and not a dimmer. The Engine Analyzer is a Grand Rapids EIS 6000. Doc's are here: http://grtavionics.com/manualseis.html Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425291#425291 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: How to decide if a heat sink is required for a
Rect Bridge
Date: Jun 22, 2014
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Date: Jun 22, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 02:08 PM 6/22/2014, you wrote: > > >nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > Your voltage measurements confirmed that the annunciator > > output from your engine analyzer is decidedly not capable > > of driving an incandescent bulb . . . in fact, it appears > > that this particular output is not well thought out. Have > > you had any contact with the factory about this? What > > brand and model analyzer are we talking about. Are the > > installation manuals available on line? > > >But... It does work with an incandescent bulb... As long as it's >wired to 12v and not a dimmer. ??? What size of bulb . . . how many milliamps does the bulb draw? The voltages you observed in circuit 2 say that with JUST the two LEDS and their companion resistor attached to the engine analyzer, all measured voltage drops add up to the supply voltage. This means that for that current level, the engine analyzer will pull the lamp port nearly to ground. I believe the resistor was 390 ohms . . . so load on the engine analyzer in case #1 was 8.07/390 = 20.6 milliamps. You added a resistor across the array in case #3 which says that voltage across the 390 ohm resistor dropped to 6.55 volts . . . so indeed, current through the lamps went down to 6.55/390 equals 7.2 millimaps . . . approximately 1/3 that of case #1. Further, you cite 10.7 volts across the 1K resistor for an additional 10.7 milliamps of load on the engine analyzer lamp port . . . for a total of 17.9 milliamps which is less than case #1. Yet you LOST some voltage in the engine analyzer. Total voltage drop in the lamps and resistor is 10.65 volts with a system voltage of 12.37 . . . or 1.72 volts went missing in the engine analyzer's lamp driver. In case #4 we see the same thing happening . . . with the disappearance of about 1.5 volts. The output switching device should not have that much loss . . . I would expect tens of millvolts tops. The voltages say yes, the LEDs are indeed biased up significantly lighter when the anti- ghosting resistor is added. But it's not clear why. >The Engine Analyzer is a Grand Rapids EIS 6000. >Doc's are here: >http://grtavionics.com/manualseis.html > Okay, the warning light output is described thusly: Emacs! The fact that it can 'shut down' automatically implies some kind of protective 'smarts' on this pin. At the same time, the rated switching current is more than adequate to the task of handling either LED or incandescent lamps . . . although the 'ghosting' phenomenon is not understood. Have you talked with GR about this? This still not making sense. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2014
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > ??? What size of bulb . . . how many milliamps does the bulb draw? > > The voltages you observed in circuit 2 say that with JUST the two LEDS and their companion resistor attached to the engine analyzer, all measured voltage drops add up to the supply voltage. This means that for that current level, the engine analyzer will pull the lamp port nearly to ground. I believe the resistor was 390 ohms . . . so load on the engine analyzer in case #1 was 8.07/390 = 20.6 milliamps. > > You added a resistor across the array in case #3 which says that voltage across the 390 ohm resistor dropped to 6.55 volts . . . so indeed, current through the lamps went down to 6.55/390 equals 7.2 millimaps . . . approximately 1/3 that of case #1. Further, you cite 10.7 volts across the 1K resistor for an additional 10.7 milliamps of load on the engine analyzer lamp port . . . for a total of 17.9 milliamps which is less than case #1. Yet you LOST some voltage in the engine analyzer. Total voltage drop in the lamps and resistor is 10.65 volts with a system voltage of 12.37 . . . or 1.72 volts went missing in the engine analyzer's lamp driver. In case #4 we see the same thing happening . . . with the disappearance of about 1.5 volts. > > The output switching device should not have that much loss . . . I would expect tens of millvolts tops. The voltages say yes, the LEDs are indeed biased up significantly lighter when the anti-ghosting resistor is added. But it's not clear why. > > Have you talked with GR about this? This still not making sense. > Bob . . . The bulb I used is a bulb that I got from B&C with the LR3C. I hooked it up just to see if it would behave properly (and it did). If you want, I can check the specs on it. I can't speak to or dispute the numbers or calculations that you present as that's not my area of expertise. I can only say with certainty what happens when the switch is thrown. I have spoken to GRT as I mentioned in the original post. They said the alarm output is designed for an incandescent bulb and that to make it work with an LED I would have to put a 1.5K resistor across the LED. Now I didn't explain complex (elaborate, convoluted, bizarre, whatever term you wish to use to describe my annunicator panel) nature of the warning light I had. Only that I was using an LED. They would have assumed that it was a single LED powered by a constant power source. I appreciate all the help and suggestions from everyone. I wish that this would have been a simple fix but it would seem that something is going on inside the engine analyzer that defies explanation. -Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425298#425298 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 22, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: How to decide if a heat sink is required for
a Rect Bridge At 05:11 PM 6/22/2014, you wrote: In addition to the below: how do you know if you have to have a heat sink Insulator ??? Do we have to with this type of installation ? I originally was going to mount each one on its own heat sink but now I am thinking all three on the same heat sink, am I asking for electrical sparks ?? Why so many? Can you share a sketch of your application? Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to decide if a heat sink is required for a Rect Bridge Okay I have these Rect Bridge GBPC Series Digikey gbpc3502a 35 amp version At 6A continuous in these devices, no heat sinking is necessary I plan on using them to connect a device from two different dc batteries To run a load of about 6 amps continuous This is a composite airframe so no place to bolt directly to metal 1) Is a heat sink required ? 2) Would it be a good idea if one is not required 3) How do we tell how big of a heat sink we need ? Would a digikey part number hs114 work properly ? How can we tell ? If you were really pressing them to their electrical limits, there ARE thermal dissipation studies you can conduct to establish heat-sink sizing. Here is but one of many examples . . . http://tinyurl.com/lkly23x These devices were chosen decades ago for their mechanical conveniences in mounting and attaching wires. The fact that they were electrically ubber-robust wasn't a design goal . . . it just turned out that way. Unless they're mounted in a hot environment, they're good for 6A without additional sinking. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 22, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
> >I appreciate all the help and suggestions from everyone. I wish that >this would have been a simple fix but it would seem that something >is going on inside the engine analyzer that defies explanation. Actually, it's very explainable . . . given all the facts. Can you give me a name/number at GRT? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 22, 2014
Phone number for GRT is on their contact page. http://www.grtavionics.com/contact.html I don't recall who I spoke to about this. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425304#425304 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: How to decide if a heat sink is required for
a Rect Bridge
Date: Jun 23, 2014
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________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: How to decide if a heat sink is required for
a Rect Bridge At 11:07 PM 6/22/2014, you wrote: >I wanted to have one for each device in case the >device eat the diode or the diode eat itself ( I >might get power for the diodes from the two >regular busses as well instead of the battery >busses but then that means I must have a relay >energized with just battery power >Here=99s a clip but I have attached pdf of what >I have thus far on the layout=85. > p; >[] > > Okay. I'm thinking that your present 'state of the system' is a bit over-complicated. The purpose of the diode pairs in Z-19 is to improve on reliability of available power to SINGULAR critical loads. I.e. a single ECU has power available from two sources which are isolated from each other by the diode -OR- pair. In your diagram you show two fuel pumps. There's no value in providing multiple power sources for both pumps . . . your stacking redundancies. Recommend you eliminate the lower two diode pairs. Run one pump from engine bus through what ever automated controls are available; run second pump from main bus with its own, dedicated on/off switch. This leaves only one diode -OR- pair to boost power source integrity for the ECU/IGN systems. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2014
Dan, Good going getting your project working to your satisfaction. The readers of this forum would love to see a picture of your finished circuit board and display. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425318#425318 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2014
Details on the annunicator panel are here: http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/2013/08/03/13-99-annunicator-panel/ http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/2013/08/15/13-99-annunicator-panel-3/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425323#425323 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2014
Mission accomplished! The analyzer alarm LEDs will go out before the others at around 15% brightness. But above that, those LEDs are the same brightness as the others. I played around with different resistance values and determined that 18K between the source and gate provide the widest range and relative brightness. Thanks all!!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425328#425328 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/annun_small_165.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2014
Good job Don -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425335#425335 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 Schematic
At 11:34 PM 6/23/2014, you wrote: I am using your Schematic Z-14 as my guide for the power circuits in my Seawind project. There are some wire size callouts that confuse me. You show 4awg thru the starter circuit up to the starter contactor, for both main and aux. batteries, but 2awg from there to the starter. You also show 2awg for the link between cross-feed contactor and main battery contactor. Seems like the same current should demand the same wire throughout. The Z-figures are ARCHITCTURE drawings, not wiring diagrams. EVERY wire used in the final configuration should be evaluated for suitability to task which includes consideration mostly for voltage drop. 2AWG (or larger) is probably necessary for voltage drop considerations on your long leads. But 4AWG can be used for short run jumpers and especially to battery terminal posts. Batteries have to be in the nose for weight & balance & because there's no other suitable space. It's 25ft from batteries to starter. Seawind specified 2awg. I bumped it up to 1awg welding cable, cause I get more copper for the buck, and want all the starter power available. (No way in hell it can be hand propped.) In other words, if 4AWG will work for the same engine and battery combo in an RV, then the wire isn't in trouble for overheating in a seaplane . . . the long wire runs dictate more copper to keep the cranking performance up. There is no usable firewall space, so the contactors are up front with the batteries. Not sure what you mean here. Battery contactors mount as close as practical to batteries, starter contactor as close as practical to starter. Regulators go there too-only one field wire each need go back. Why is 4awg called out for main alt. "B" to starter contactor? If run to a 50A breaker in the panel Please no b-lead breakers on panel . . . use current limiter or fat-fuse at the contacotrs). Size the wire as your voltage drops dictate. Z-14 in a seaplane brings b-leads up front on long wires. Starter contactor should be close to starter and main alternator b-lead tied into system AT the hot side of the contactor . . . use that starter current fat-wire to service the alternator too., 6awg should be enough? (Regulator reads voltage at the other end?) . . . long wire, legacy practices call for limiting voltage drop to a few percent at full alternator load. What does * = 6 inches or less mean? Means the two devices should be as close to each other as practical. What is "Note 10"--I couldn't find it in your book. Not sure . . . may be an editing error. Why a 30A fuse shown for both alternators? Aux is shown 20A, and Main is shown 40A (Mine is 60A). B & C supplied 2 5A field breakers & one 50A. from the B.O.M on their version of Z-14. This is not a wiring diagram . . . adjust sizes according to your particular constellation of accessories. Should have been one 15A breaker for the Aux. Alt.(Maybe I've misplaced it.) Use fuses on b-leads OFF the panel. Field supply breakers should be 5A Thanks again for showing me where to get P-Lead Ferrule Kits and shielded wire at reasonable cost. I could use some suggestions on the most "sanitary" way to tap into the shielded p-lead wires to get signals to the E.I.S. I am using the Grand Rapids Technology E.I.S. & E.F.I.S. package. The E.I.S.is mounted in the tailcone beneath the engine nacelle. Of 50 pins, 3 do nothing, 3 go to the front and the balance do various engine monitoring chores. One wire carries serial data about everything to the E.F.I.S displays 20ft. to the front. Better to run 3 long wires than 47! Put a terminal block next to GRT databox to 'break out' p-lead signals. After power, the "fun" really starts. Two E.F.I.S. panels, Audio panel, 1 A.H.R.S, 1 ADS-B, Remote Magnetometer, flap and trim indicators, autopilot servos,Garmin 650. Remote G.P.S. antenna, Remote Transponder, Strobes, Ldg. Lights, Nav Lights, Pitot Heat, Dual nav and com antennae, marker beacon antenna, tip float camera, analog to digital camera adapter, video selector switch, maybe fish finder and add'tl camera, 4 fuel pumps,ldg. gear switches and last but not least, DVD player for the copilot to watch dirty movies in the right E.F.I.S. on the way to Air Venture. Would covering the welding cable with oil line fire sleeve satisfy a D.A.R.? (Exhaust will be 6 in. away.) Yes . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Brownout battery charging?
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 24, 2014
Because my last question was incredibly educational, I thought that I would try another. :D I'm thinking that I would like to have a brownout battery to keep the EFIS up during engine start. I thought about using a "deslumpifier" but figured that a brownout battery would have the added bonus of keeping the EFIS up during a... main battery failure, contactor failure, etc. (those not being the primary reason though). My primary challenge is that I've got a 24v (or 28v if that's how you want to call it) electrical system and every auxiliary or backup battery that I've seen is 12v. But I found these: http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/xt.html or these: http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/gr12vo45amph.html Which would be wired in series. I'm using a VPX-Pro and they support a backup battery and attached is the approach I was thinking of taking. The EFIS has multiple, diode protected power inputs so I would simply run one of the alternate power inputs to the backup battery. Here's the question: Will they charge when wired as described? These batteries are lead acid batteries so given my limited knowledge of battery technology, it seems to me that it should work. I contacted the vendor and they would not comment beyond using the correct wall charger for these batteries. Attempting to charge them any other way will result in reversing the rotation of the planet and killing all life. So given that, I'm not sure if this is the right battery. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425383#425383 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/backup_battery_160.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob-tcw" <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
Date: Jun 24, 2014
I know many on this list are about rolling their own designs and I'm all for that, however, if you want an engineered solution to this problem we have it available. Our series of IPS products, (intelligent power stabilizer) provides the exact function of preventing critical equipment from rebooting during engine starting. Our products our purpose built DC:DC converters that run from very low voltages and provide a stabilized output to the connected load. We have both 12 volt and 24 volt models in stock. All the details are at: www.tcwtech.com just click on the pictures of IPS products. In my RV-10 I use our IPS-12v-4a unit to protect my Garmin GNS430. It provides stable 12 volt power to the GNS system with battery voltages as low as 4 volts. Bob Newman N541RV -----Original Message----- From: donjohnston Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 3:43 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Brownout battery charging? Because my last question was incredibly educational, I thought that I would try another. :D I'm thinking that I would like to have a brownout battery to keep the EFIS up during engine start. I thought about using a "deslumpifier" but figured that a brownout battery would have the added bonus of keeping the EFIS up during a... main battery failure, contactor failure, etc. (those not being the primary reason though). My primary challenge is that I've got a 24v (or 28v if that's how you want to call it) electrical system and every auxiliary or backup battery that I've seen is 12v. But I found these: http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/xt.html or these: http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/gr12vo45amph.html Which would be wired in series. I'm using a VPX-Pro and they support a backup battery and attached is the approach I was thinking of taking. The EFIS has multiple, diode protected power inputs so I would simply run one of the alternate power inputs to the backup battery. Here's the question: Will they charge when wired as described? These batteries are lead acid batteries so given my limited knowledge of battery technology, it seems to me that it should work. I contacted the vendor and they would not comment beyond using the correct wall charger for these batteries. Attempting to charge them any other way will result in reversing the rotation of the planet and killing all life. So given that, I'm not sure if this is the right battery. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425383#425383 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/backup_battery_160.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jun 24, 2014
Bob, do you happen to be familiar with the GTN 650 power input scheme? I used the diode isolated power pins on a 430 install (NAV & Comm) to provide power from two different busses, now I'm helping a friend with his 650 install and he wanted to do the same. Were told the multiple input pins on the 650 are not diode isolated. I'm surprised by this, any thoughts why they did this? Thanks, Tim > On Jun 24, 2014, at 4:28 PM, "Bob-tcw" wrote: > > > I know many on this list are about rolling their own designs and I'm all for that, however, if you want an engineered solution to this problem we have it available. Our series of IPS products, (intelligent power stabilizer) provides the exact function of preventing critical equipment from rebooting during engine starting. Our products our purpose built DC:DC converters that run from very low voltages and provide a stabilized output to the connected load. We have both 12 volt and 24 volt models in stock. > > All the details are at: www.tcwtech.com just click on the pictures of IPS products. > > In my RV-10 I use our IPS-12v-4a unit to protect my Garmin GNS430. It provides stable 12 volt power to the GNS system with battery voltages as low as 4 volts. > > Bob Newman > N541RV > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- From: donjohnston > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 3:43 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Brownout battery charging? > > > Because my last question was incredibly educational, I thought that I would try another. :D > > I'm thinking that I would like to have a brownout battery to keep the EFIS up during engine start. I thought about using a "deslumpifier" but figured that a brownout battery would have the added bonus of keeping the EFIS up during a... main battery failure, contactor failure, etc. (those not being the primary reason though). > > My primary challenge is that I've got a 24v (or 28v if that's how you want to call it) electrical system and every auxiliary or backup battery that I've seen is 12v. But I found these: > > > http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/xt.html > > or these: > > http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/gr12vo45amph.html > > Which would be wired in series. > > I'm using a VPX-Pro and they support a backup battery and attached is the approach I was thinking of taking. The EFIS has multiple, diode protected power inputs so I would simply run one of the alternate power inputs to the backup battery. > > Here's the question: Will they charge when wired as described? These batteries are lead acid batteries so given my limited knowledge of battery technology, it seems to me that it should work. I contacted the vendor and they would not comment beyond using the correct wall charger for these batteries. Attempting to charge them any other way will result in reversing the rotation of the planet and killing all life. > > So given that, I'm not sure if this is the right battery. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425383#425383 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/backup_battery_160.jpg > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob-tcw" <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
Date: Jun 24, 2014
Yes, I'm totally aware of this (blunder!) I've talked to my friends at Garmin, as we have designed many of our products with their gear in mind and know them quite well, and they were surprised by the removal of such a useful feature. They really did not have a good reason for this change, only some mild stumbling about how the GTN is probably already on an essential bus of some sort. It was pretty lame. Anyway, there you have it, they removed a perfectly good feature!. BTW, we do have an application drawing for utilizing our IBBS back-up product line with GTN navigators. Our IBBS products have the diode isolation built-in. Bob Newman TCW Technologies, N541RV -----Original Message----- From: Tim Andres Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 8:07 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Brownout battery charging? Bob, do you happen to be familiar with the GTN 650 power input scheme? I used the diode isolated power pins on a 430 install (NAV & Comm) to provide power from two different busses, now I'm helping a friend with his 650 install and he wanted to do the same. Were told the multiple input pins on the 650 are not diode isolated. I'm surprised by this, any thoughts why they did this? Thanks, Tim > On Jun 24, 2014, at 4:28 PM, "Bob-tcw" wrote: > > > I know many on this list are about rolling their own designs and I'm all > for that, however, if you want an engineered solution to this problem we > have it available. Our series of IPS products, (intelligent power > stabilizer) provides the exact function of preventing critical equipment > from rebooting during engine starting. Our products our purpose built > DC:DC converters that run from very low voltages and provide a stabilized > output to the connected load. We have both 12 volt and 24 volt models in > stock. > > All the details are at: www.tcwtech.com just click on the pictures of > IPS products. > > In my RV-10 I use our IPS-12v-4a unit to protect my Garmin GNS430. It > provides stable 12 volt power to the GNS system with battery voltages as > low as 4 volts. > > Bob Newman > N541RV > > > -----Original Message----- From: donjohnston > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 3:43 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Brownout battery charging? > > <don@velocity-xl.com> > > Because my last question was incredibly educational, I thought that I > would try another. :D > > I'm thinking that I would like to have a brownout battery to keep the EFIS > up during engine start. I thought about using a "deslumpifier" but > figured that a brownout battery would have the added bonus of keeping the > EFIS up during a... main battery failure, contactor failure, etc. (those > not being the primary reason though). > > My primary challenge is that I've got a 24v (or 28v if that's how you want > to call it) electrical system and every auxiliary or backup battery that > I've seen is 12v. But I found these: > > > http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/xt.html > > or these: > > http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/gr12vo45amph.html > > Which would be wired in series. > > I'm using a VPX-Pro and they support a backup battery and attached is the > approach I was thinking of taking. The EFIS has multiple, diode protected > power inputs so I would simply run one of the alternate power inputs to > the backup battery. > > Here's the question: Will they charge when wired as described? These > batteries are lead acid batteries so given my limited knowledge of battery > technology, it seems to me that it should work. I contacted the vendor > and they would not comment beyond using the correct wall charger for these > batteries. Attempting to charge them any other way will result in > reversing the rotation of the planet and killing all life. > > So given that, I'm not sure if this is the right battery. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425383#425383 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/backup_battery_160.jpg > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
At 07:07 PM 6/24/2014, you wrote: > >Bob, do you happen to be familiar with the GTN 650 power input >scheme? I used the diode isolated power pins on a 430 install (NAV & >Comm) to provide power from two different busses, now I'm helping a >friend with his 650 install and he wanted to do the same. Were told >the multiple input pins on the 650 are not diode isolated. I'm >surprised by this, any thoughts why they did this? Looking through the GTN650 manual at http://tinyurl.com/lc6v4th I find no references to diode isolation within the GTN640 between nav and comm radio power. This is consistent with other Garmin installations I've had any contact with. One input is for comm, the other for nav and they are independent of each other. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Brownout battery charging? At 07:07 PM 6/24/2014, you wrote: Bob, do you happen to be familiar with the GTN 650 power input scheme? I used the diode isolated power pins on a 430 install (NAV & Comm) to provide power from two different busses, now I'm helping a friend with his 650 install and he wanted to do the same. Were told the multiple input pins on the 650 are not diode isolated. I'm surprised by this, any thoughts why they did this? Looking through the GTN650 manual at http://tinyurl.com/lc6v4th I find no references to diode isolation within the GTN640 between nav and comm radio power. This is consistent with other Garmin installations I've had any contact with. One input is for comm, the other for nav and they are independent of each other. Just checked the manual for the 430 at http://tinyurl.com/kwvhtxh and found the same thing . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
At 02:43 PM 6/24/2014, you wrote: > >Because my last question was incredibly educational, I thought that >I would try another. :D > >I'm thinking that I would like to have a brownout battery to keep >the EFIS up during engine start. I thought about using a >"deslumpifier" but figured that a brownout battery would have the >added bonus of keeping the EFIS up during a... main battery failure, >contactor failure, etc. (those not being the primary reason though). What's your anticipated architecture? Under what conditions do you anticipate a battery failure? >My primary challenge is that I've got a 24v (or 28v if that's how >you want to call it) electrical system and every auxiliary or backup >battery that I've seen is 12v. But I found these: Yeah, you'll have to roll your own and you're going to be loathe to install anything with robustness . . . meaning small . . . meaning not particularly long-lived when connected across a DC bus system. The deslumpifier is by far the more elegant solution . . . with a Z-13/8 or similar architecture and rudimentary preventative maintenance, there's just no compelling driver for bolting more boxes full of lead to your airplane . . . even itty-bitty ones. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 24, 2014
rnewman(at)tcwtech.com wrote: > I know many on this list are about rolling their own designs and I'm all for > that, however, if you want an engineered solution to this problem we have > it available. Our series of IPS products, (intelligent power > stabilizer) provides the exact function of preventing critical equipment > from rebooting during engine starting. Our products our purpose built > DC:DC converters that run from very low voltages and provide a stabilized > output to the connected load. We have both 12 volt and 24 volt models in > stock. I had asked about 24v versions of your product not too long ago (I think the last time was last year at OSH) and was told you didn't have a 24v version. I looked on your website and couldn't find any mention either. Can you provide a link to your 24v IPS product? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425410#425410 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jun 24, 2014
I don't believe it spells this out in the 430 manual (BobK), but the pins are diode isolated internally, multi pins on both comm and NAV sections. So just like GRT equipment it would power from the pin with the highest voltage present. Normally the pins are just tied together, but the option is there if you have a dual bus aircraft. Evidently they decided not to do this on the 650. Tim > On Jun 24, 2014, at 5:55 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Brownout battery charging? > > > At 07:07 PM 6/24/2014, you wrote: > > > Bob, do you happen to be familiar with the GTN 650 power input scheme? I used the diode isolated power pins on a 430 install (NAV & Comm) to provide power from two different busses, now I'm helping a friend with his 650 install and he wanted to do the same. Were told the multiple input pins on the 650 are not diode isolated. I'm surprised by this, any thoughts why they did this? > > Looking through the GTN650 manual at > http://tinyurl.com/lc6v4th > I find no references to diode isolation > within the GTN640 between nav and comm > radio power. This is consistent with > other Garmin installations I've had > any contact with. One input is for comm, > the other for nav and they are independent > of each other. > > Just checked the manual for the 430 at > http://tinyurl.com/kwvhtxh > and found the same thing . . . > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 24, 2014
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > What's your anticipated architecture? Not sure what you're looking for. Like I said, I'm running a VPX-Pro, 24v electrical system. I don't know how much more you need beyond the diagram I posted. Let me know, and I'll provide it. > Under what conditions do you anticipate a battery failure? I don't anticipate a battery failure. My primary reason is to keep the EFIS during engine start. An added benefit is being able to power the EFIS in the event of a battery or contactor failure. The latter is just an added benefit. Not a primary reason. > > Yeah, you'll have to roll your own and you're going to be loathe to install anything with robustness . . . meaning small . . . meaning not particularly long-lived when connected across a DC bus system. Well, I was looking at 3-5ah (the EFIS and AHRS draw about 2a). So I certainly wasn't looking for cross-country endurance. > The deslumpifier is by far the more elegant solution . . . with a Z-13/8 or similar architecture and rudimentary preventative maintenance, there's just no compelling driver for bolting more boxes full of lead to your airplane . . . even itty-bitty ones. Eric Jones provided me with a schematic for his DeSlumpifier a while back. But after thinking about the time to make the changes for a 24v system and build it, I thought that a backup battery option may be quicker and easier. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425412#425412 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob-tcw" <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
Date: Jun 24, 2014
The 24 volt version of the IPS system is at: http://tcwtech.com/intelligent_power_stabilize_24v.htm Bob Newman -----Original Message----- From: donjohnston Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 9:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brownout battery charging? rnewman(at)tcwtech.com wrote: > I know many on this list are about rolling their own designs and I'm all > for > that, however, if you want an engineered solution to this problem we > have > it available. Our series of IPS products, (intelligent power > stabilizer) provides the exact function of preventing critical equipment > from rebooting during engine starting. Our products our purpose built > DC:DC converters that run from very low voltages and provide a stabilized > output to the connected load. We have both 12 volt and 24 volt models in > stock. I had asked about 24v versions of your product not too long ago (I think the last time was last year at OSH) and was told you didn't have a 24v version. I looked on your website and couldn't find any mention either. Can you provide a link to your 24v IPS product? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425410#425410 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 24, 2014
rnewman(at)tcwtech.com wrote: > The 24 volt version of the IPS system is at: > http://tcwtech.com/intelligent_power_stabilize_24v.htm > > Bob Newman > -- Ahhh. I think I see the confusion. This is basically a DeSlumpifier, right? I was thinking battery. This is definitely an option. I'm at the point where I'm trying to avoid major detours. And building a DeSlumpifier from scratch could become a black hole of time. Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425420#425420 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 24, 2014
rnewman(at)tcwtech.com wrote: > The 24 volt version of the IPS system is at: > http://tcwtech.com/intelligent_power_stabilize_24v.htm > > Bob Newman > -- Ahhh. I think I see the confusion. This is basically a DeSlumpifier, right? I was thinking battery. This is definitely an option. I'm at the point where I'm trying to avoid major detours. And building a DeSlumpifier from scratch could become a black hole of time. Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425421#425421 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jun 24, 2014
If it's just brownout, and you have a 28V system...I'm guessing the EFIS will run on 12-28 volts, so I doubt you'll sag under 12 volts when cranking. Be fine won't it? Tim > On Jun 24, 2014, at 6:34 PM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > > > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: >> >> What's your anticipated architecture? > > Not sure what you're looking for. Like I said, I'm running a VPX-Pro, 24v electrical system. I don't know how much more you need beyond the diagram I posted. Let me know, and I'll provide it. > >> Under what conditions do you anticipate a battery failure? > > I don't anticipate a battery failure. My primary reason is to keep the EFIS during engine start. An added benefit is being able to power the EFIS in the event of a battery or contactor failure. The latter is just an added benefit. Not a primary reason. > > >> >> Yeah, you'll have to roll your own and you're going to be loathe to install anything with robustness . . . meaning small . . . meaning not particularly long-lived when connected across a DC bus system. > > Well, I was looking at 3-5ah (the EFIS and AHRS draw about 2a). So I certainly wasn't looking for cross-country endurance. > > >> The deslumpifier is by far the more elegant solution . . . with a Z-13/8 or similar architecture and rudimentary preventative maintenance, there's just no compelling driver for bolting more boxes full of lead to your airplane . . . even itty-bitty ones. > > Eric Jones provided me with a schematic for his DeSlumpifier a while back. But after thinking about the time to make the changes for a 24v system and build it, I thought that a backup battery option may be quicker and easier. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425412#425412 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 24, 2014
Subject: How is it I get a shock from an iPod?
Here's a non-aviation question for the group. Unless you fly with an iPod, I guess. Background: My son complained today that he got shocked by an iPod. FWIW, it's a 5th gen nano plugged into an Apple USB charging cube by an Apple charging cord--not knock-off parts. First I said yeah, right...but he insisted so like an idiot I figured I'd show him how that was impossible....and of course I got shocked too. Not as strong as 120VAC but enough to get my attention. We were both barefoot (key, I think...) on a concrete slab, in the garage. It happened when either of us touched the metal lock switch. I've never had any issues with the power strip we were using. Putting a meter between the lock switch and ground I measure an invigorating 60VAC. Between the neutral of the power strip to any other ground is zero, so I figure the power strip is wired correctly. Inverting the cube (it's not polarized) makes no difference, still 60VAC. I tried a few things: different plug, no shock. Different cord, no shock. Different cube, no shock. I went back to the original combination: BZZZZT. So it is repeatable. There's an Apple support document describing the possibility of static shock when using their device. This was not your typical feet-on-carpet-touch-a-doorknob static shock. It was sustained as long as I touched the lock switch. The iPod works and charges just fine except for that particular combination of parts. Questions: In general, how is it that an iPod can give me an electric, non-static shock? I thought that USB was only 5V. How does more than 5V get into the system? Or more appropriately, how does it get out of the system? Could this happen from a 12V system, or is part of the 120V getting through? Thanks for tolerating a non-airplane topic, --Dave Saylor ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2014
Subject: Re: How is it I get a shock from an iPod?
From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
Hi Dave I think it's an Apple thing - I get zapped by my aluminium Macbook Pro, exactly how you describe it - when it's plugged in. Sometimes it's actually painful, since the skin in the inner arms is pretty sensitive! I don't know if it's any different here in a 220V country, but I'd really like to get to the bottom of it. It's happened at multiple locations, which leads me to believe that it's also not affected by the supply wiring. Thanks Etienne On 25 June 2014 07:49, Dave Saylor wrote: > Here's a non-aviation question for the group. Unless you fly with an > iPod, I guess. > > Background: > > My son complained today that he got shocked by an iPod. FWIW, it's a 5th > gen nano plugged into an Apple USB charging cube by an Apple charging > cord--not knock-off parts. First I said yeah, right...but he insisted so > like an idiot I figured I'd show him how that was impossible....and of > course I got shocked too. Not as strong as 120VAC but enough to get my > attention. > > We were both barefoot (key, I think...) on a concrete slab, in the garage. > It happened when either of us touched the metal lock switch. I've never > had any issues with the power strip we were using. > > Putting a meter between the lock switch and ground I measure an > invigorating 60VAC. Between the neutral of the power strip to any other > ground is zero, so I figure the power strip is wired correctly. Inverting > the cube (it's not polarized) makes no difference, still 60VAC. > > I tried a few things: different plug, no shock. Different cord, no shock. > Different cube, no shock. I went back to the original combination: > BZZZZT. So it is repeatable. > > There's an Apple support document describing the possibility of static > shock when using their device. This was not your typical > feet-on-carpet-touch-a-doorknob static shock. It was sustained as long as I > touched the lock switch. > > The iPod works and charges just fine except for that particular > combination of parts. > > Questions: > > In general, how is it that an iPod can give me an electric, non-static > shock? I thought that USB was only 5V. How does more than 5V get into the > system? Or more appropriately, how does it get out of the system? Could > this happen from a 12V system, or is part of the 120V getting through? > > Thanks for tolerating a non-airplane topic, > > --Dave Saylor > > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: Tcwtech <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2014
Our information is that at least the GRT 24 volt version is Not 12-24 capable and suffers from low voltage reboot issues during engine cranking and for some during electric hydraulic pump actuation. We have solved their issues on a number of occasions using the 24 volt ips product. Bob Newman. TCW technologies. > On Jun 24, 2014, at 10:42 PM, Tim Andres wrote: > > > If it's just brownout, and you have a 28V system...I'm guessing the EFIS will run on 12-28 volts, so I doubt you'll sag under 12 volts when cranking. Be fine won't it? > Tim > >> On Jun 24, 2014, at 6:34 PM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: >>> >>> What's your anticipated architecture? >> >> Not sure what you're looking for. Like I said, I'm running a VPX-Pro, 24v electrical system. I don't know how much more you need beyond the diagram I posted. Let me know, and I'll provide it. >> >>> Under what conditions do you anticipate a battery failure? >> >> I don't anticipate a battery failure. My primary reason is to keep the EFIS during engine start. An added benefit is being able to power the EFIS in the event of a battery or contactor failure. The latter is just an added benefit. Not a primary reason. >> >> >>> >>> Yeah, you'll have to roll your own and you're going to be loathe to install anything with robustness . . . meaning small . . . meaning not particularly long-lived when connected across a DC bus system. >> >> Well, I was looking at 3-5ah (the EFIS and AHRS draw about 2a). So I certainly wasn't looking for cross-country endurance. >> >> >>> The deslumpifier is by far the more elegant solution . . . with a Z-13/8 or similar architecture and rudimentary preventative maintenance, there's just no compelling driver for bolting more boxes full of lead to your airplane . . . even itty-bitty ones. >> >> Eric Jones provided me with a schematic for his DeSlumpifier a while back. But after thinking about the time to make the changes for a 24v system and build it, I thought that a backup battery option may be quicker and easier. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425412#425412 > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2014
tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: > If it's just brownout, and you have a 28V system...I'm guessing the EFIS will run on 12-28 volts, so I doubt you'll sag under 12 volts when cranking. Be fine won't it? > Tim No. With GRT, you get either a 12v or a 24v version. The 24v version drops off at around 21v. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425439#425439 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John MacCallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: How is it I get a shock from an iPod?
Date: Jun 25, 2014
HI Dave, I think Carl can probably answer this best but I should think it=99s caused by the Switch mode power supply of the Charger and a floating ground coupled with Double Insulation. In layman=99s terms the charger is building up a charge because it=99s not earthed and because you are by standing on the ground (or concrete) you get a small amount of Current that flows through yourself from Ground. Therefore if your skin resistance is low enough you feel a slight tingle. This often happens with other devices that have floating grounds. Tv=99s, Stereo Systems and other such devices. It=99s gets to be more than 5 volts because the power supply has internal high frequency switching transistors that are driving an output transformer the primary winding of which is at least at 110 volts, (in the US and 240 volts here in Australia). I don=99t think it is really correct for Apple to refer to it as a static charge because usually if you continue to touch the device the tingle will persist because the source of the current is still present but others may have more information on that subject. Cheers John MacCalllum From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2014 3:49 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: How is it I get a shock from an iPod? Here's a non-aviation question for the group. Unless you fly with an iPod, I guess. Background: My son complained today that he got shocked by an iPod. FWIW, it's a 5th gen nano plugged into an Apple USB charging cube by an Apple charging cord--not knock-off parts. First I said yeah, right...but he insisted so like an idiot I figured I'd show him how that was impossible....and of course I got shocked too. Not as strong as 120VAC but enough to get my attention. We were both barefoot (key, I think...) on a concrete slab, in the garage. It happened when either of us touched the metal lock switch. I've never had any issues with the power strip we were using. Putting a meter between the lock switch and ground I measure an invigorating 60VAC. Between the neutral of the power strip to any other ground is zero, so I figure the power strip is wired correctly. Inverting the cube (it's not polarized) makes no difference, still 60VAC. I tried a few things: different plug, no shock. Different cord, no shock. Different cube, no shock. I went back to the original combination: BZZZZT. So it is repeatable. There's an Apple support document describing the possibility of static shock when using their device. This was not your typical feet-on-carpet-touch-a-doorknob static shock. It was sustained as long as I touched the lock switch. The iPod works and charges just fine except for that particular combination of parts. Questions: In general, how is it that an iPod can give me an electric, non-static shock? I thought that USB was only 5V. How does more than 5V get into the system? Or more appropriately, how does it get out of the system? Could this happen from a 12V system, or is part of the 120V getting through? Thanks for tolerating a non-airplane topic, --Dave Saylor ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How is it I get a shock from an iPod?
From: "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Jun 25, 2014
Buy one of those cheap LED type plug-in polarity testers from a home improvement store and check the polarity of your garage outlets. It sounds like you may have a dangerous condition in your shop with possible wire polarity reversal and/or a grounded neutral. For about 5 bucks, the tester will quickly alert you of any problem. Another good idea is to retrofit a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) into garage outlets now required by code for new construction. A single GFCI will protect all downstream outlets, so a GFCI is not required at every outlet for protection and retrofitting is not a big deal. GFCIs are LIFESAVERS. Your shock may be a wake-up call to a larger and quite dangerous problem for the sake of your children and their breadwinner, please dont ignore it. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425442#425442 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How to decide if a heat sink is required for a
Rect Br
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 25, 2014
I sell very nice Power_Deuce_Schottkys for the Z-19 half bridges or any other purpose. Very low Vf, modest heat sink included. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425453#425453 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/power_deuce_schottky_manual_269.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Vintage Electronics at ShopGoodwill.com
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2014
Eric M. Jones wrote: > Last week I bid on a Curta Type I calculator. Cheeeeez.......... A Curta Type I? How much did you bid and did you get it??? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425456#425456 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2014
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
From: GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com>
> > Hi Guys- it sounds like you are getting a half wave tickle, which could > imply that the guts of the device are intended for a polarized plug while > the polarized plug itself is absent. If that is the case, each time you > plug in you would have a 50 / 50 chance of getting a have wave zap, 60v > here and 110 v for Etienne. I'd repeat the V measurement excercise twice, > once with each plug / recceptacle orientation. If you get 1/2 line V one > way and zero the other, there you go. > > > From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: How is it I get a shock from an iPod? > > Here's a non-aviation question for the group. Unless you fly with an iPod, > I guess. > > Background: > > My son complained today that he got shocked by an iPod. FWIW, it's a 5th > gen nano plugged into an Apple USB charging cube by an Apple charging > cord--not knock-off parts. First I said yeah, right...but he insisted so > like an idiot I figured I'd show him how that was impossible....and of > course I got shocked too. Not as strong as 120VAC but enough to get my > attention. > > We were both barefoot (key, I think...) on a concrete slab, in the garage. > It happened when either of us touched the metal lock switch. I've never > had any issues with the power strip we were using. > > Putting a meter between the lock switch and ground I measure an > invigorating 60VAC. Between the neutral of the power strip to any other > ground is zero, so I figure the power strip is wired correctly. Inverting > the cube (it's not polarized) makes no difference, still 60VAC. > > I tried a few things: different plug, no shock. Different cord, no shock. > Different cube, no shock. I went back to the original combination: > BZZZZT. So it is repeatable. > > There's an Apple support document describing the possibility of static > shock when using their device. This was not your typical > feet-on-carpet-touch-a-doorknob static shock. It was sustained as long as I > touched the lock switch. > > The iPod works and charges just fine except for that particular combination > of parts. > > Questions: > > In general, how is it that an iPod can give me an electric, non-static > shock? I thought that USB was only 5V. How does more than 5V get into the > system? Or more appropriately, how does it get out of the system? Could > this happen from a 12V system, or is part of the 120V getting through? > > Thanks for tolerating a non-airplane topic, > > --Dave Saylor > > ________________________________ Message 17 > ____________________________________ > > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How is it I get a shock from an iPod? > From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com> > > Hi Dave > > I think it's an Apple thing - I get zapped by my aluminium Macbook Pro, > exactly how you describe it - when it's plugged in. Sometimes it's actually > painful, since the skin in the inner arms is pretty sensitive! I don't know > if it's any different here in a 220V country, but I'd really like to get to > the bottom of it. It's happened at multiple locations, which leads me to > believe that it's also not affected by the supply wiring. > > Thanks > Etienne > > > On 25 June 2014 07:49, Dave Saylor > wrote: > > > Here's a non-aviation question for the group. Unless you fly with an > > iPod, I guess. > > > > Background: > > > > My son complained today that he got shocked by an iPod. FWIW, it's a 5th > > gen nano plugged into an Apple USB charging cube by an Apple charging > > cord--not knock-off parts. First I said yeah, right...but he insisted so > > like an idiot I figured I'd show him how that was impossible....and of > > course I got shocked too. Not as strong as 120VAC but enough to get my > > attention. > > > > We were both barefoot (key, I think...) on a concrete slab, in the > garage. > > It happened when either of us touched the metal lock switch. I've never > > had any issues with the power strip we were using. > > > > Putting a meter between the lock switch and ground I measure an > > invigorating 60VAC. Between the neutral of the power strip to any other > > ground is zero, so I figure the power strip is wired correctly. Inverting > > the cube (it's not polarized) makes no difference, still 60VAC. > > > > I tried a few things: different plug, no shock. Different cord, no > shock. > > Different cube, no shock. I went back to the original combination: > > BZZZZT. So it is repeatable. > > > > There's an Apple support document describing the possibility of static > > shock when using their device. This was not your typical > > feet-on-carpet-touch-a-doorknob static shock. It was sustained as long > as I > > touched the lock switch. > > > > The iPod works and charges just fine except for that particular > > combination of parts. > > > > Questions: > > > > In general, how is it that an iPod can give me an electric, non-static > > shock? I thought that USB was only 5V. How does more than 5V get into > the > > system? Or more appropriately, how does it get out of the system? Could > > this happen from a 12V system, or is part of the 120V getting through? > > > > Thanks for tolerating a non-airplane topic, > > > > --Dave Saylor > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
Date: Jun 25, 2014
The puzzling thing is that there should be no path for these kinds of shocks, no matter what... See Ken Shirriff's teardown of an apple charger here: http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.html and here: http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-chargers-pricey.html Is the voltage between neutral and ground zero *when it's plugged in*? I wonder if you don't have some resistance there or something that develops a voltage only when there is a load applied. Very odd. On Jun 25, 2014, at 9:18 AM, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote: > Hi Guys- it sounds like you are getting a half wave tickle, which could imply that the guts of the device are intended for a polarized plug while the polarized plug itself is absent. If that is the case, each time you plug in you would have a 50 / 50 chance of getting a have wave zap, 60v here and 110 v for Etienne. I'd repeat the V measurement excercise twice, once with each plug / recceptacle orientation. If you get 1/2 line V one way and zero the other, there you go. > > > > > > From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: How is it I get a shock from an iPod? > > Here's a non-aviation question for the group. Unless you fly with an iPod, > I guess. > > Background: > > My son complained today that he got shocked by an iPod. FWIW, it's a 5th > gen nano plugged into an Apple USB charging cube by an Apple charging > cord--not knock-off parts. First I said yeah, right...but he insisted so > like an idiot I figured I'd show him how that was impossible....and of > course I got shocked too. Not as strong as 120VAC but enough to get my > attention. > > We were both barefoot (key, I think...) on a concrete slab, in the garage. > It happened when either of us touched the metal lock switch. I've never > had any issues with the power strip we were using. > > Putting a meter between the lock switch and ground I measure an > invigorating 60VAC. Between the neutral of the power strip to any other > ground is zero, so I figure the power strip is wired correctly. Inverting > the cube (it's not polarized) makes no difference, still 60VAC. > > I tried a few things: different plug, no shock. Different cord, no shock. > Different cube, no shock. I went back to the original combination: > BZZZZT. So it is repeatable. > > There's an Apple support document describing the possibility of static > shock when using their device. This was not your typical > feet-on-carpet-touch-a-doorknob static shock. It was sustained as long as I > touched the lock switch. > > The iPod works and charges just fine except for that particular combination > of parts. > > Questions: > > In general, how is it that an iPod can give me an electric, non-static > shock? I thought that USB was only 5V. How does more than 5V get into the > system? Or more appropriately, how does it get out of the system? Could > this happen from a 12V system, or is part of the 120V getting through? > > Thanks for tolerating a non-airplane topic, > > --Dave Saylor > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ > > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How is it I get a shock from an iPod? > From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com> > > Hi Dave > > I think it's an Apple thing - I get zapped by my aluminium Macbook Pro, > exactly how you describe it - when it's plugged in. Sometimes it's actually > painful, since the skin in the inner arms is pretty sensitive! I don't know > if it's any different here in a 220V country, but I'd really like to get to > the bottom of it. It's happened at multiple locations, which leads me to > believe that it's also not affected by the supply wiring. > > Thanks > Etienne > > > On 25 June 2014 07:49, Dave Saylor > wrote: > > > Here's a non-aviation question for the group. Unless you fly with an > > iPod, I guess. > > > > Background: > > > > My son complained today that he got shocked by an iPod. FWIW, it's a 5th > > gen nano plugged into an Apple USB charging cube by an Apple charging > > cord--not knock-off parts. First I said yeah, right...but he insisted so > > like an idiot I figured I'd show him how that was impossible....and of > > course I got shocked too. Not as strong as 120VAC but enough to get my > > attention. > > > > We were both barefoot (key, I think...) on a concrete slab, in the garage. > > It happened when either of us touched the metal lock switch. I've never > > had any issues with the power strip we were using. > > > > Putting a meter between the lock switch and ground I measure an > > invigorating 60VAC. Between the neutral of the power strip to any other > > ground is zero, so I figure the power strip is wired correctly. Inverting > > the cube (it's not polarized) makes no difference, still 60VAC. > > > > I tried a few things: different plug, no shock. Different cord, no shock. > > Different cube, no shock. I went back to the original combination: > > BZZZZT. So it is repeatable. > > > > There's an Apple support document describing the possibility of static > > shock when using their device. This was not your typical > > feet-on-carpet-touch-a-doorknob static shock. It was sustained as long as I > > touched the lock switch. > > > > The iPod works and charges just fine except for that particular > > combination of parts. > > > > Questions: > > > > In general, how is it that an iPod can give me an electric, non-static > > shock? I thought that USB was only 5V. How does more than 5V get into the > > system? Or more appropriately, how does it get out of the system? Could > > this happen from a 12V system, or is part of the 120V getting through? > > > > Thanks for tolerating a non-airplane topic, > > > > --Dave Saylor > > > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > ========== > - > ric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > MS - > k">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > e - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2014
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
Hi Glen I've tried swapping the plug around, with no improvement. The charger is supplied with a non-polarized 2-pin plug on the end, so it's being used as intended (certainly as intended by Apple, but maybe not by the people who designed the insides - if not Apple). This isn't an isolated incident, it happened on my previous Macbook Pro (7 years ago) and happened in the iStore last week on the latest generation stuff. I'm not saying it's right, as it certainly isn't pleasant - but it doesn't seem as though Apple is taking complaints about it too seriously. I'll try and remember to take a voltage measurement tonight to see how bad it is. What is interesting is that it zaps me no matter how well I'm insulated from the floor. Etienne On 25 June 2014 16:18, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote: > Hi Guys- it sounds like you are getting a half wave tickle, which could >> imply that the guts of the device are intended for a polarized plug while >> the polarized plug itself is absent. If that is the case, each time you >> plug in you would have a 50 / 50 chance of getting a have wave zap, 60v >> here and 110 v for Etienne. I'd repeat the V measurement excercise twice, >> once with each plug / recceptacle orientation. If you get 1/2 line V one >> way and zero the other, there you go. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2014
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
Hi Etienne, Same here in the UK, but with a Toshiba laptop. Some of the black coating has rubbed off the left-hand front corner of the laptop, revealing a tiny 1x1mm bit of metal... right where my wrist is. When it's plugged in, I get a shock from it; when it's not, I don't. Here in the UK, all sockets are wired the same way, with specific L, N & E terminals. FWIW. James p.s. a further oddity. If I run my finger along the laptop, for example next to the mousepad, it sort of "drags" when the laptop's plugged in... when it's not, there's no friction at all. Go figure! On 25 June 2014 15:46, Etienne Phillips wrote: > Hi Glen > > I've tried swapping the plug around, with no improvement. The charger is > supplied with a non-polarized 2-pin plug on the end, so it's being used as > intended (certainly as intended by Apple, but maybe not by the people who > designed the insides - if not Apple). > > This isn't an isolated incident, it happened on my previous Macbook Pro (7 > years ago) and happened in the iStore last week on the latest generation > stuff. I'm not saying it's right, as it certainly isn't pleasant - but it > doesn't seem as though Apple is taking complaints about it too seriously. > > I'll try and remember to take a voltage measurement tonight to see how bad > it is. What is interesting is that it zaps me no matter how well I'm > insulated from the floor. > > Etienne > > > On 25 June 2014 16:18, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote: > >> Hi Guys- it sounds like you are getting a half wave tickle, which could >>> imply that the guts of the device are intended for a polarized plug while >>> the polarized plug itself is absent. If that is the case, each time you >>> plug in you would have a 50 / 50 chance of getting a have wave zap, 60v >>> here and 110 v for Etienne. I'd repeat the V measurement excercise twice, >>> once with each plug / recceptacle orientation. If you get 1/2 line V one >>> way and zero the other, there you go. >> >> >> >> * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How is it I get a shock from an iPod?
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2014
Dave, I think it's likely that the charging cube you have, though it may look like genuine Apple, is actually a knockoff. There have been many examples of th ese coming from China, and they almost never have the same safety-minded des ign as the genuine article. They look virtually identical, but the insides a re a joke by comparison. If it is an Apple, it clearly has a manufacturing d efect. Obviously, these things convert 120VAC to 5VDC. Believe it or not, the proc ess involves AC voltages much higher than line voltage. If the device doesn 't have proper allowances in its design for creepage and clearance (distance between high and low voltage sections), it can be a death trap. I *STRONGL Y* recommend that you throw the offending charger away *IMMEDIATELY* and get a new one. I would stick with either a genuine Apple part, or one of the w ell-known aftermarket brands like Belkin. You should never feel an AC shock from any consumer electronics device. Eve r. Eric P.S. Crack the cube open and take a couple pictures of the insides before y ou toss it. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between Apple and knock off. On Jun 25, 2014, at 12:49 AM, Dave Saylor wrote: > Here's a non-aviation question for the group. Unless you fly with an iPod , I guess. > > Background: > > My son complained today that he got shocked by an iPod. FWIW, it's a 5th g en nano plugged into an Apple USB charging cube by an Apple charging cord--n ot knock-off parts. First I said yeah, right...but he insisted so like an i diot I figured I'd show him how that was impossible....and of course I got s hocked too. Not as strong as 120VAC but enough to get my attention. > > We were both barefoot (key, I think...) on a concrete slab, in the garage. It happened when either of us touched the metal lock switch. I've never h ad any issues with the power strip we were using. > > Putting a meter between the lock switch and ground I measure an invigorati ng 60VAC. Between the neutral of the power strip to any other ground is zer o, so I figure the power strip is wired correctly. Inverting the cube (it's n ot polarized) makes no difference, still 60VAC. > > I tried a few things: different plug, no shock. Different cord, no shock. Different cube, no shock. I went back to the original combination: BZZZZ T. So it is repeatable. > > There's an Apple support document describing the possibility of static sho ck when using their device. This was not your typical feet-on-carpet-touch- a-doorknob static shock. It was sustained as long as I touched the lock swit ch. > > The iPod works and charges just fine except for that particular combinatio n of parts. > > Questions: > > In general, how is it that an iPod can give me an electric, non-static sho ck? I thought that USB was only 5V. How does more than 5V get into the syst em? Or more appropriately, how does it get out of the system? Could this h appen from a 12V system, or is part of the 120V getting through? > > Thanks for tolerating a non-airplane topic, > > --Dave Saylor ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2014
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
Thanks to everyone who replied. This is such a great resource, I never get tired of the discussion. I did some more checking. My garage wiring seems to be fine. Can't find any fault there. I really do appreciate the concern, you guys are great. As for the half wave, even with polarity reversed, same effect. I tried a couple more chargers. A different Belkin charger gives me a 45V potential to ground. I have one of the dedicated USB receptacles that wires into a wall plug. It only gives me about 3V, which I figure is maybe just noise. And I tried a few more locations for the chargers. They seem to give the same result no matter where they're plugged in. Same result with two iPods and an iPhone. Nothing, though, with an iPad that uses the new type of mini plug. So the problem seems to be in the charger, some worse than others. I think the big difference was being barefoot on the concrete slab. That gave a great path to ground, courtesy of yours truly. I'm getting a new charger! --Dave On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 8:02 AM, James Kilford wrote: > Hi Etienne, > > Same here in the UK, but with a Toshiba laptop. Some of the black coating > has rubbed off the left-hand front corner of the laptop, revealing a tiny > 1x1mm bit of metal... right where my wrist is. When it's plugged in, I get > a shock from it; when it's not, I don't. Here in the UK, all sockets are > wired the same way, with specific L, N & E terminals. > > FWIW. > > James > > p.s. a further oddity. If I run my finger along the laptop, for example > next to the mousepad, it sort of "drags" when the laptop's plugged in... > when it's not, there's no friction at all. Go figure! > > > On 25 June 2014 15:46, Etienne Phillips > wrote: > >> Hi Glen >> >> I've tried swapping the plug around, with no improvement. The charger is >> supplied with a non-polarized 2-pin plug on the end, so it's being used as >> intended (certainly as intended by Apple, but maybe not by the people who >> designed the insides - if not Apple). >> >> This isn't an isolated incident, it happened on my previous Macbook Pro >> (7 years ago) and happened in the iStore last week on the latest generation >> stuff. I'm not saying it's right, as it certainly isn't pleasant - but it >> doesn't seem as though Apple is taking complaints about it too seriously. >> >> I'll try and remember to take a voltage measurement tonight to see how >> bad it is. What is interesting is that it zaps me no matter how well I'm >> insulated from the floor. >> >> Etienne >> >> >> >> On 25 June 2014 16:18, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys- it sounds like you are getting a half wave tickle, which could >>>> imply that the guts of the device are intended for a polarized plug while >>>> the polarized plug itself is absent. If that is the case, each time you >>>> plug in you would have a 50 / 50 chance of getting a have wave zap, 60v >>>> here and 110 v for Etienne. I'd repeat the V measurement excercise twice, >>>> once with each plug / recceptacle orientation. If you get 1/2 line V one >>>> way and zero the other, there you go. >>> >>> >>> >>> * >> >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com> >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> >> > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2014
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
From: GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com>
Ah well; So much for the polarization theory. I'd love to understand the voltage-induced perception of friction, though. Any electro-physio engineers out there? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
>I don't anticipate a battery failure. My primary reason is to keep >the EFIS during engine start. An added benefit is being able to >power the EFIS in the event of a battery or contactor failure. The >latter is just an added benefit. Not a primary reason. How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2014
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
The sensation of friction is quite often characterized as a vibration as the finger catches and slides on a surface (think of a slightly damp finger across a window pane). With the 50 or 60Hz shocks, the nerves on the skin are tricked into the sensation of a vibration, which is interpreted as friction. Etienne On 26 June 2014 16:29, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote: > Ah well; So much for the polarization theory. I'd love to understand the > voltage-induced perception of friction, though. Any electro-physio > engineers out there? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 26, 2014
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] > > How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'? > > Bob . . . About 30 seconds. But it is also displaying engine data. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425566#425566 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2014
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
From: GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Etienne - that would make sense. >The sensation of friction is quite often characterized as a vibration as >the finger catches and slides on a surface (think of a slightly damp finger >across a window pane). With the 50 or 60Hz shocks, the nerves on the skin >are tricked into the sensation of a vibration, which is interpreted as >friction. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2014
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
Don, I had a similar issue with my Z-14 12volt RV-10. I knew during the design phase that before the start I wanted to be able to run a rather extensive list of avionics (aka 'the kitchen sink'). That requirement came from my experience with IFR operations in my old Maule. A series of decisions and perhaps oversights made the list particularly power hungry - (3) GRT EFISs powered on with the master, a GRT EIS, and (1) G430w because that's where flight plans have to be input along with a comm radio. It turns out that the (3) EFISs are not only power needy but they also are sensitive to drops when engine starting, i.e. they re-boot, and they take roughly 30 secs to come back online. When I had to send one unit in for service, I was warned that it may well have been the result of the boot process being interrupted. That shouldn't happen but it is experimental... so I make sure all 3 units all fully booted before starts. Some other issues contributed - e.g. the GRTs required clock power when the master was off which tended to drag down a battery during non-flying periods (later they were updated to pickup the time from the GPS). With dual buses and batteries, my workaround was to run the pre-start avionics on 1 battery and start with the other. Worked okay in warm weather but a single PC680 sometimes had problems turning over the cold IO-540 with it's lightweight starter. I often ended up having to choose between having 2 batteries for a cold start or having my avionics available for pre-start machinations. Running the strobes pre-start became a 'non-starter', at least until I upgraded strobe power supply units. Finally I put TCW's IPS product in and that finally gave me what I wanted, consistently. So 3 years down the line, I've had close to 1 year of totally satisfactory operation of my panel around engine starts. I have sat out in the rain, engine off, watching a storm pass by on Nexrad, turned on the strobes for safety, cranked on both batteries and gone on my merry way just as desired. Bill "who finds the electronics/electrics of a well equipped bass boat almost as entertaining as catching bass" Watson On 6/26/2014 6:22 PM, donjohnston wrote: > > [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] >> How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'? >> >> Bob . . . > > About 30 seconds. But it is also displaying engine data. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425566#425566 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
At 09:10 PM 6/25/2014, you wrote: >Thanks to everyone who replied. =C2 This is such a >great resource, I never get tired of the discussion. > >I did some more checking. =C2 My garage wiring >seems to be fine. =C2 Can't find any fault there. >=C2 I really do appreciate the concern, you guys are great. > >As for the half wave, even with polarity reversed, same effect. Interesting thread . . . I'd like to understand more about the nature and root cause of Dave's observations. I'm not aware of any line operated power supply wherein the designer did not observe the most rudimentary of design goals for user safety. Consider this exchange between a DIY wall-wart wannabe and some cooler heads . . . http://tinyurl.com/omf3xg2 From day-one for unregulated, transformer/rectifier/ capacitor wall warts to present-day transformer/ switchmode regulators . . . the consumer product wall warts have always featured transformer isolation between any connection to AC mains and connections accessible to the consumer. To gain UL approvals, all power supplies are evaluated for potential leakage, arcing or mechanical failures that would pose a risk for loss of such protection. This view of the interior of a modern, ac-mains dc supply shows the tiny transformer (tiny because it operates at frequencies much higher than ac-mains 60Hz) which has been clearly marked "HiPot OK" and a date-code of 49th week of 1999. IoMega open A 'hi-pot' test calls for deliberate application of hundreds of volts across the insulation between the transformer's 'line-side' and 'consumer-side' windings. Leakages of more than a few microamps gets the transformer rejected. Dave's observations are probably based on a degraded assembly, possibley due to some combination of dust/moisture . . . or breakdown of the transformer's insulation. I've asked Dave for the carcass . . . it would be interesting to see if root cause for his observations can be identified. Suffice it to say, there is very little risk for repeated experiences for any of millions of examples of ac-mains operated power supplies. Making them safe is easier than making them work good. Selective purchasing decisions based on brand names is not particularly useful . . . the most revered of brands may exploit the economies of outside production support . . . for which they will have developed a requirements document. A document that most certainly includes the value of designing for 'hi-pot' tests . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Jun 27, 2014
Bill, Do you have a schematic of your system by chance? Sounds like what I'm looking for! Thanks Justin On Jun 27, 2014, at 7:14, Bill Watson wrote: > > Don, I had a similar issue with my Z-14 12volt RV-10. I knew during the design phase that before the start I wanted to be able to run a rather extensive list of avionics (aka 'the kitchen sink'). That requirement came from my experience with IFR operations in my old Maule. > > A series of decisions and perhaps oversights made the list particularly power hungry - (3) GRT EFISs powered on with the master, a GRT EIS, and (1) G430w because that's where flight plans have to be input along with a comm radio. It turns out that the (3) EFISs are not only power needy but they also are sensitive to drops when engine starting, i.e. they re-boot, and they take roughly 30 secs to come back online. > > When I had to send one unit in for service, I was warned that it may well have been the result of the boot process being interrupted. That shouldn't happen but it is experimental... so I make sure all 3 units all fully booted before starts. > > Some other issues contributed - e.g. the GRTs required clock power when the master was off which tended to drag down a battery during non-flying periods (later they were updated to pickup the time from the GPS). > > With dual buses and batteries, my workaround was to run the pre-start avionics on 1 battery and start with the other. Worked okay in warm weather but a single PC680 sometimes had problems turning over the cold IO-540 with it's lightweight starter. I often ended up having to choose between having 2 batteries for a cold start or having my avionics available for pre-start machinations. Running the strobes pre-start became a 'non-starter', at least until I upgraded strobe power supply units. > > Finally I put TCW's IPS product in and that finally gave me what I wanted, consistently. So 3 years down the line, I've had close to 1 year of totally satisfactory operation of my panel around engine starts. I have sat out in the rain, engine off, watching a storm pass by on Nexrad, turned on the strobes for safety, cranked on both batteries and gone on my merry way just as desired. > > Bill "who finds the electronics/electrics of a well equipped bass boat almost as entertaining as catching bass" Watson > > > > > > On 6/26/2014 6:22 PM, donjohnston wrote: >> >> [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] >>> How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'? >>> >>> Bob . . . >> >> About 30 seconds. But it is also displaying engine data. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425566#425566 > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 27, 2014
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
Bob, You should have it in a couple days. I said in my post that it was an Apple device--it's not. It is a knock-off, with no marking except Made in China to instill consumer confidence... --Dave On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 8:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:10 PM 6/25/2014, you wrote: > > Thanks to everyone who replied. =C3=82 This is such a great resource, I n ever > get tired of the discussion. > > I did some more checking. =C3=82 My garage wiring seems to be fine. =C3 =82 Can't > find any fault there. =C3=82 I really do appreciate the concern, you guys are > great. > > As for the half wave, even with polarity reversed, same effect. > > > Interesting thread . . . I'd like to understand more > about the nature and root cause of Dave's observations. > > I'm not aware of any line operated power supply > wherein the designer did not observe the most > rudimentary of design goals for user safety. > > Consider this exchange between a DIY wall-wart > wannabe and some cooler heads . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/omf3xg2 > > From day-one for unregulated, transformer/rectifier/ > capacitor wall warts to present-day transformer/ > switchmode regulators . . . the consumer product > wall warts have always featured transformer isolation between > any connection to AC mains and connections accessible > to the consumer. > > To gain UL approvals, all power supplies are > evaluated for potential leakage, arcing or > mechanical failures that would pose a risk > for loss of such protection. > > This view of the interior of a modern, ac-mains > dc supply shows the tiny transformer (tiny because > it operates at frequencies much higher than ac-mains > 60Hz) which has been clearly marked "HiPot OK" > and a date-code of 49th week of 1999. > > [image: IoMega open] > > A 'hi-pot' test calls for deliberate application of hundreds > of volts across the insulation between the transformer's > 'line-side' and 'consumer-side' windings. Leakages of > more than a few microamps gets the transformer rejected. > > Dave's observations are probably based on a degraded assembly, > possibley due to some combination of dust/moisture . . . or > breakdown of the transformer's insulation. > > I've asked Dave for the carcass . . . it would be interesting > to see if root cause for his observations can be identified. > Suffice it to say, there is very little risk for repeated > experiences for any of millions of examples of ac-mains > operated power supplies. Making them safe is easier > than making them work good. Selective purchasing decisions > based on brand names is not particularly useful . . . > the most revered of brands may exploit the economies of > outside production support . . . for which they will > have developed a requirements document. A document that > most certainly includes the value of designing for > 'hi-pot' tests . . . > > > Bob . . . > > * > =========== www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Serial Data Logger
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 27, 2014
There has been occasional discussion of data logging on this forum, so I tho ught this might be of interest. Sparkfun has just released an updated versi on of their Logomatic serial data logger: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12772 Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2014
From: Ken <kleh(at)dialupatcost.ca>
Subject: Re: Serial Data Logger
I've used the analog inputs on that item with vibration sensors and strain gauges recording at up to 1500 sps mounted on a prop hub but you need to be a tinkerer to set it up and condition the sensor inputs. Biggest issue is probably how to analyse the data. I've used gnuplot and octave which are free but it can be very time consuming. If a lower sample rate is acceptable, for most folks I'd recommend a more plug and play type recorder that includes analysis and display software. Bob has mentioned a starter unit for around $50. that looked much simpler to use. http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di145.html#ordernow Ken On 27/06/2014 6:22 PM, Eric Page wrote: > There has been occasional discussion of data logging on this forum, so I > thought this might be of interest. Sparkfun has just released an > updated version of their Logomatic serial data logger: > > https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12772 > > Eric > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Serial Data Logger
At 08:40 PM 6/27/2014, you wrote: I've used the analog inputs on that item with vibration sensors and strain gauges recording at up to 1500 sps mounted on a prop hub but you need to be a tinkerer to set it up and condition the sensor inputs. Biggest issue is probably how to analyse the data. I've used gnuplot and octave which are free but it can be very time consuming. If a lower sample rate is acceptable, for most folks I'd recommend a more plug and play type recorder that includes analysis and display software. Bob has mentioned a starter unit for around $50. that looked much simpler to use. http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di145.html#ordernow Ken I am always pleased to see discussions on the art and science of data gathering. Had a discussion with some folks yesterday about a woodruff key failure in a flap drive system . . . when I asked if anyone had deduced the moment of inertia for the equipment downstream of the motor . . . I got this blank stare. The ability to go measure and record things for a very few dollars has been growing by leaps and bounds. I introduced PC based DAS to Beech in 1999 with a program to characterize pitch trim vs. autopilot performance on the Beechjet. At that time, the 'tall boy' in DIY data acquisition was a $100 'dongle' that plugged into the serial port of a Win95 laptop. It gathered 8 channels of 12 bit analog data at 1000 samples per second for every channel! I had to limit data gathering runs to 16 minutes each due to a file size limitation on the application that supported the hardware. Nonetheless, for a few hundred dollars and 1 week of fixture building, I was able to gather very high quality data on a par with legacy instrumentation that occupied a 100 pound rack bolted to the floorboards and took a crew several days to install and wire to the aircraft. In later years on the same program, I built a qualification test fixture for those same pitch trim motors Emacs! This time, a combination of both data gathering and test control was orchestrated out of a PC using the two dark green Weeder Technology boards seen here. $70 each as I recall. Yeah, that's a cake pan chassis. Today you can purchase 6 channels of 10 bit input complete with graphical user interface software for $12 shipped to your door. http://tinyurl.com/kd2gb4g Equipment for fast and accurate measurement and recording is no longer the bottleneck . . . doing the interface between the airplane and the DAS becomes the problem to be solved. That light green interface board took a day to lay out and another day to stuff it. Then I spent about a week instrumenting the motors and getting them into the chamber. Emacs! Emacs! If that screen looks a bit like PC-DOS, you're right. I keep a DOS laptop around just for the purpose of quickly firing up a bevy of test tools to go-get-numbers. That Weston transistorized "VTVM" has been in my toolbox for 40 years . . . still works fine. Emacs! Emacs! As owners/builders/designers of systems on OBAM aircraft, we have 100 times the opportunity to get numbers on the things that define how our machines function. This List probably represents one of the greatest concentration of experience, talent and lessons-learned in OBAM aviation for things electrical. Our brothers in the CAFE organization pick up the slack on power plants and airframes. If anyone has both curiosity and opportunity to explore the numbers on their airplane . . . bring it up here on the list. The talent to assist you is right here . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 2014
Subject: More MGL Enigma issues
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
To avoid brownout during start up we installed a Mitchell oil pressure gauge as a supplement to the MGL. The tech folks at Mitchell helped us get the right gauge for the VDO single wire pressure sender (VDO p/n 360-004) and everything seemed to be working fine until they weren't. We traced the problem to a failed sender and installed a new one today. Per VDO the sender was installed dry to ensure it has a good ground. It seems to work fine with the Mitchell gauge, but won't produce a steady reading on the MGL. I've tried every setting in the setup menu for the oil pressure sender and the only one that works is for a 0 to 5 volt sender (the other three options are for automotive resistance style, Rotax 5 to 20 mA, and .5 to 4.5 volt). All the others lock up at somewhere between 133 and 139 PSI. With the menu set for the 0 to 5 volt sender the pressure varies between 62 and 80 PSI at 2200 RPM. When I go into the menu that allows me to see the raw data coming into the RADC unit it shows the sender is putting out .32 to .39 volts at 2200 RPM. If I decrease the RPM to 1850 the sender output goes up to .35 to .41 volts. This corresponds to 65 to 85 PSI on the Enigma. The part that truly makes my head hurt is that at VDO's website; http://www.vdo-instruments.com/sensors/pressure-sensors-switches/pressure-sender-150-psi-1-8-27npt-29-12.html The sender is described as sending a signal from 10 to 180 ohms yet, as I said, using the automotive resistance style setting in the setup menu causes the Enigma reading to lock up at 133 PSI. Last, does anyone know where to get current documentation on the Enigma? What the owner has appears to be an early revision that bears little resemblance to the current software version installed in the EFIS. On MGL's website I get a 404, page not found error when I try the documentation page. Rick Girard It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aeroled wiring
From: "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net>
Date: Jun 29, 2014
Continuous noise on COM 1 when nav lights are on. I have the same issue. My Aeroleds transmit a signal which is picked up on my COM 1 GNS430W but not on the SL30. I wrote to Aeroleds and they replaced the units with a newer version. However I only sent them the wingtip nav/strobe lights and not the nav/strobe taillight. The problem is not audiable on ground with 1000 RPM but appears latest during take-off run. In order to solve my issue I was wondering if your filters will solve it and where to order them. Regards Mike -------- RV-10 builder (flying) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425704#425704 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Aeroled wiring
At 05:08 AM 6/29/2014, you wrote: > >Continuous noise on COM 1 when nav lights are on. >I have the same issue. My Aeroleds transmit a signal which is picked >up on my COM 1 GNS430W but not on the SL30. I wrote to Aeroleds and >they replaced the units with a newer version. However I only sent >them the wingtip nav/strobe lights and not the nav/strobe taillight. >The problem is not audiable on ground with 1000 RPM but appears >latest during take-off run. > >In order to solve my issue I was wondering if your filters will >solve it and where to order them. The filter kit I used to offer was tailored to a specific power supply that was popularly used in some DIY LED lighting installations. http://tinyurl.com/kqfw5pn It would probably work with other products but it would be a bit messy . . . and they're out of production. If AEROLED was able to fix the wing-tip lights, why not the tail? They're in the business of supplying holy-watered products for aircraft. They, of all folks, should know what it takes to bring your installation up to minimal design goals. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: More MGL Enigma issues
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2014
The VDO 360-004 is a resistance type sender. It can NOT output a voltage. The voltage is coming from the Mitchell oil pressure gauge. Ideally the MGL and Mitchell gauge should each have its own sensor. But that might not be practical. It seems that some type of buffer is needed to convert the voltage from the Mitchell to a signal that the MGL can use. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425709#425709 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aeroled wiring
From: "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net>
Date: Jun 29, 2014
Thanks Bob To be fair I didn't send them the tail light as I was under the assumption that the noise is caused by the wingtip lights. One of Aeroleds suggestion was to install a piece of aluminum in the RV wingtips that covers the back of the installation and route ground wire from that piece to the nearest structure. I agree that I would expect a product like this to function noise free without having to add this installation. Regards Michael -------- RV-10 builder (flying) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425726#425726 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2014
Subject: Re: More MGL Enigma issues
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Joe, all, we tried every possible combination of sensor hook up to the Mitchell and MGL, both together and each alone. Even when the MGL was the only thing hooked up to the sensor the output on the raw data showed the pressure sender between .31 and .41 volts. In the end we left the MGL disconnected and are only driving the Mitchell gauge so the owner can fly while we attempt to figure it out. Thanks, Rick On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 7:49 AM, user9253 wrote: > > The VDO 360-004 is a resistance type sender. It can NOT output a voltage. > The voltage is coming from the Mitchell oil pressure gauge. Ideally the > MGL and Mitchell gauge should each have its own sensor. But that might not > be practical. It seems that some type of buffer is needed to convert the > voltage from the Mitchell to a signal that the MGL can use. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425709#425709 > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: More MGL Enigma issues
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2014
Have you measured the voltage at the instrument-panel end of the sender wires with nothing connected at all? Or measure the voltage between the sender case and instrument panel ground? This measurement should be taken with everything electrical turned on. Maybe there is a poor ground connection someplace. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425732#425732 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: More MGL Enigma issues
At 01:30 PM 6/29/2014, you wrote: >Joe, all, we tried every possible combination of sensor hook up to >the Mitchell and MGL, both together and each alone. Even when the >MGL was the only thing hooked up to the sensor the output on the raw >data showed the pressure sender between .31 and .41 volts. >In the end we left the MGL disconnected and are only driving the >Mitchell gauge so the owner can fly while we attempt to figure it out. Are you using the same 'sender' for both the steam gage AND trying to read it with the EIS? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Aeroled wiring
At 11:53 AM 6/29/2014, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob >To be fair I didn't send them the tail light as I was under the >assumption that the noise is caused by the wingtip lights. One of >Aeroleds suggestion was to install a piece of aluminum in the RV >wingtips that covers the back of the installation and route ground >wire from that piece to the nearest structure. >I agree that I would expect a product like this to function noise >free without having to add this installation. Exactly. Any time a supplier speaks to user- installed mitigation for noise, it's a big red flag that they perhaps forgot to do their how-to-live-in-an-airplane homework. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: More MGL Enigma issues
From: "pestar" <peter(at)reivernet.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2014
Join http://www.mglavionicsusers.org/forum/index.php and ask your questions there. You will get lots of support. Cheers Peter Peter Armstrong Auckland, New Zealand -------- Peter Armstrong Auckland, New Zealand DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me :) ). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425741#425741 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: More MGL Enigma issues
At 07:49 AM 6/29/2014, you wrote: > >The VDO 360-004 is a resistance type sender. It can NOT output a >voltage. The voltage is coming from the Mitchell oil pressure >gauge. Ideally the MGL and Mitchell gauge should each have its own >sensor. But that might not be practical. It seems that some type >of buffer is needed to convert the voltage from the Mitchell to a >signal that the MGL can use. Opps . . . perhaps this is the answer to my recent question. Joe is right, a variable resistance transducer must be powered up from the companion instrument . . . I presume the Mitchell gage has power, ground and transducer connectors. Once biased up by the Mitchell gage internals, there WILL be a variable voltage across the transducer terminals that represents the MITCHELL gage expectations . . . but since the EIS is not privy to exactly what that excitation is, it cannot properly interpret the voltage. If you want BOTH instruments then you'll need to set up the EIS to work with a 3-wire, linear voltage transducer . . . then add an instrument set up to read THAT same voltage. It's not hard to do if you are handy with a soldering iron and a few chips. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
From: "mmayfield" <mmayfield(at)ozemail.com.au>
Date: Jun 29, 2014
FYI, here in Australia a couple of days ago a young woman was electrocuted and killed by a dodgy knock-off phone charger. She was talking on the phone plugged into the charger while wearing headphones plugged into her laptop, which was plugged into another wall socket. This completed a 240V circuit which ran from the faulty phone charger through her hand, up and out through her ears, into the laptop and back into the house supply. The knockoff charger (like many knockoffs) did not comply with national electrical safety standards and needless to say, there has now been a massive crackdown by the authorities on stores and markets selling cheap import chargers which are non-compliant. -------- Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425746#425746 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2014
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
That's tragic. I can imagine lots of people putting themselves in a similar situation. BTW, for those wondering if this is an urban legend, here's a link to a recent news article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2671493/Woman-dies-electrocuted-headphones-plugged-laptop.html I've learned my lesson. No more cheapo chargers. --Dave On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 6:51 PM, mmayfield wrote: > mmayfield(at)ozemail.com.au> > > FYI, here in Australia a couple of days ago a young woman was electrocuted > and killed by a dodgy knock-off phone charger. > > She was talking on the phone plugged into the charger while wearing > headphones plugged into her laptop, which was plugged into another wall > socket. This completed a 240V circuit which ran from the faulty phone > charger through her hand, up and out through her ears, into the laptop and > back into the house supply. > > The knockoff charger (like many knockoffs) did not comply with national > electrical safety standards and needless to say, there has now been a > massive crackdown by the authorities on stores and markets selling cheap > import chargers which are non-compliant. > > -------- > Mike > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425746#425746 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2014
Subject: Re: More MGL Enigma issues
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
The MGL was the ONLY thing connected to the sender and the data still said that the sender was reading .31 to .41 volts. Any voltage would have been supplied by the MGL's RADC box. The output to the Enigma EFIS is through a proprietary cable, only the input cables from the various senders are user supplied. Going into the RADC to attempt adaptation or a fix is above my pay grade. :-} Rick Girard On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > At 07:49 AM 6/29/2014, you wrote: > >> >> The VDO 360-004 is a resistance type sender. It can NOT output a >> voltage. The voltage is coming from the Mitchell oil pressure gauge. >> Ideally the MGL and Mitchell gauge should each have its own sensor. But >> that might not be practical. It seems that some type of buffer is needed >> to convert the voltage from the Mitchell to a signal that the MGL can use. >> > > Opps . . . perhaps this is the answer to my > recent question. Joe is right, a variable > resistance transducer must be powered up from > the companion instrument . . . I presume the > Mitchell gage has power, ground and transducer > connectors. > > Once biased up by the Mitchell gage internals, > there WILL be a variable voltage across the > transducer terminals that represents the > MITCHELL gage expectations . . . but since > the EIS is not privy to exactly what that > excitation is, it cannot properly interpret > the voltage. > > If you want BOTH instruments then you'll > need to set up the EIS to work with a 3-wire, > linear voltage transducer . . . then add > an instrument set up to read THAT same > voltage. > > It's not hard to do if you are handy with > a soldering iron and a few chips. > > > Bob . . . > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2014
Subject: Re: More MGL Enigma issues
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Missed a thought. So, if I understand this, the gauge and RADC send a voltage through the VDO sender that varies its resistance with pressure and changes the voltage. This voltage change is then either converted to a meter reading or a digital output that goes to the EFIS. Yesno? Rick On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > The MGL was the ONLY thing connected to the sender and the data still said > that the sender was reading .31 to .41 volts. Any voltage would have been > supplied by the MGL's RADC box. The output to the Enigma EFIS is through a > proprietary cable, only the input cables from the various senders are user > supplied. Going into the RADC to attempt adaptation or a fix is above my > pay grade. :-} > > Rick Girard > > > On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >> >> At 07:49 AM 6/29/2014, you wrote: >> >>> >>> The VDO 360-004 is a resistance type sender. It can NOT output a >>> voltage. The voltage is coming from the Mitchell oil pressure gauge. >>> Ideally the MGL and Mitchell gauge should each have its own sensor. But >>> that might not be practical. It seems that some type of buffer is needed >>> to convert the voltage from the Mitchell to a signal that the MGL can use. >>> >> >> Opps . . . perhaps this is the answer to my >> recent question. Joe is right, a variable >> resistance transducer must be powered up from >> the companion instrument . . . I presume the >> Mitchell gage has power, ground and transducer >> connectors. >> >> Once biased up by the Mitchell gage internals, >> there WILL be a variable voltage across the >> transducer terminals that represents the >> MITCHELL gage expectations . . . but since >> the EIS is not privy to exactly what that >> excitation is, it cannot properly interpret >> the voltage. >> >> If you want BOTH instruments then you'll >> need to set up the EIS to work with a 3-wire, >> linear voltage transducer . . . then add >> an instrument set up to read THAT same >> voltage. >> >> It's not hard to do if you are handy with >> a soldering iron and a few chips. >> >> >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. > - Groucho Marx > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2014
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?
On 7/1/2014 8:46 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > I was away from my system for a few days. Let me know if still > interested and I'll share my diagrams. You'll also need TCW's > installation instructions which can be found here > http://www.tcwtech.com/IPS-12v.htm. I used the 8amp model to provide > backup power to (3) GRTs HXs and (1) G430. > > > On 6/27/2014 12:22 PM, Justin Jones wrote: >> >> >> Bill, >> >> Do you have a schematic of your system by chance? Sounds like what >> I'm looking for! >> >> Thanks >> >> Justin >> >> >> On Jun 27, 2014, at 7:14, Bill Watson wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Don, I had a similar issue with my Z-14 12volt RV-10. I knew during >>> the design phase that before the start I wanted to be able to run a >>> rather extensive list of avionics (aka 'the kitchen sink'). That >>> requirement came from my experience with IFR operations in my old >>> Maule. >>> >>> A series of decisions and perhaps oversights made the list >>> particularly power hungry - (3) GRT EFISs powered on with the >>> master, a GRT EIS, and (1) G430w because that's where flight plans >>> have to be input along with a comm radio. It turns out that the (3) >>> EFISs are not only power needy but they also are sensitive to drops >>> when engine starting, i.e. they re-boot, and they take roughly 30 >>> secs to come back online. >>> >>> When I had to send one unit in for service, I was warned that it may >>> well have been the result of the boot process being interrupted. >>> That shouldn't happen but it is experimental... so I make sure all 3 >>> units all fully booted before starts. >>> >>> Some other issues contributed - e.g. the GRTs required clock power >>> when the master was off which tended to drag down a battery during >>> non-flying periods (later they were updated to pickup the time from >>> the GPS). >>> >>> With dual buses and batteries, my workaround was to run the >>> pre-start avionics on 1 battery and start with the other. Worked >>> okay in warm weather but a single PC680 sometimes had problems >>> turning over the cold IO-540 with it's lightweight starter. I often >>> ended up having to choose between having 2 batteries for a cold >>> start or having my avionics available for pre-start machinations. >>> Running the strobes pre-start became a 'non-starter', at least until >>> I upgraded strobe power supply units. >>> >>> Finally I put TCW's IPS product in and that finally gave me what I >>> wanted, consistently. So 3 years down the line, I've had close to 1 >>> year of totally satisfactory operation of my panel around engine >>> starts. I have sat out in the rain, engine off, watching a storm >>> pass by on Nexrad, turned on the strobes for safety, cranked on both >>> batteries and gone on my merry way just as desired. >>> >>> Bill "who finds the electronics/electrics of a well equipped bass >>> boat almost as entertaining as catching bass" Watson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/26/2014 6:22 PM, donjohnston wrote: >>>> <don@velocity-xl.com> >>>> >>>> [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] >>>>> How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'? >>>>> >>>>> Bob . . . >>>> About 30 seconds. But it is also displaying engine data. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425566#425566 >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> 06/27/14 >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: More MGL Enigma issues
At 11:13 AM 7/1/2014, you wrote: >Missed a thought. So, if I understand this, the gauge and RADC send >a voltage through the VDO sender that varies its resistance with >pressure and changes the voltage. This voltage change is then either >converted to a meter reading or a digital output that goes to the EFIS. Yesno? > >Rick Yes . . . but EACH readout EXPECTS to see a voltage/pressure signature that is consistent with the BIAS current supplied by that readout. The bias currents from TWO readouts will add together and produce voltage/pressure values that makes sense to neither instrument. Theoretically, you might get away with installing the VDO/Mitchell sensor/gage combination. Then set up the 'smart' display look at the voltage and then program the display to accommodate the SAME voltage/pressure curve that operates the Mitchell gage. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: More MGL Enigma issues
At 11:09 AM 7/1/2014, you wrote: >The MGL was the ONLY thing connected to the sender and the data >still said that the sender was reading .31 to .41 volts. Any voltage >would have been supplied by the MGL's RADC box. The output to the >Enigma EFIS is through a proprietary cable, only the input cables >from the various senders are user supplied. Going into the RADC to >attempt adaptation or a fix is above my pay grade. :-} Under what conditions were these two voltages being measured? The variable resistance pressure transducer is rated to present a terminal to ground value of 10-184 ohms. Here's a thread describing a builder's efforts to adapt a VDO 10-180 ohm transducer to an MGL instrumentation package. http://tinyurl.com/pavxyb4 Emacs! Data acquired by the builder shows that sender resistance is 10 ohms at zero pressure and builds to 180 ohms a rated pressure of 10 Bar or 150 PSI. It also paints a rather linear transfer function. Here's a pdf that describes one builder's approach to converting the variable resistance VDO transucer into a variable voltage. http://tinyurl.com/oc54e9e A 300 ohm resistor in series with the gage to a 5-volt supply will produce 5 x 10/(300+10) = 160 mV at zero pressure and 5 x 100/(300+100) = 1.25 V at 75 PSI. In your case, you're wanting the Mitchell gage to take the place of the 300 ohm resistor. The MGL display of .31 to .41 volts as the ONLY excitation to the sensor suggests a bias current on the order of (0.36/10) = 0.036A or 36 milliamps. If this is a constant current, then the voltage would rise to (100 x 0.036) = 3.6 volts at 75 PSI. But these are things you would need to tell the MGL system to read the VDO sensor. Hook up the Mitchell gage as the bias source and read the zero-pressure voltage value at the transducer. Then put shop air to the transducer at about 75 PSI and get a new voltage. From these two values, you can advise the MGL system as to offset and scale factors are for converting Mitchell-volts to MGL display in response to VOLTAGE; NOT as an interpreter of VDO sensor output. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2014
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: more certified a/c stupid tricks
I've got an old Garmin 430 w/24v comm section that's going in my RV-7. Today I pulled out the (certified) 12-24v converter to look at where to mount it. See the 3 screws & nuts in a straight line along one corner? That's all there is for mounting it. No other flanges or places to add support. Even if it's mounted as shown in the pic, or with the screws in a vertical line, it can still rock from side to side. Duhh.... OK, rant mode off, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 03, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Alternator problems
At 06:31 PM 7/2/2014, you wrote: >Bob, > >I have been reading your book The AeroElectric Connection which is very >informative. I have a couple of issues. > >First, I have a Sonex with an AeroVee engine (VW) with a permanent magnet >alternator. Something is not working because the battery goes dead. When I >go to start the engine my Grand Rapids EIS shows 12.3 volts, after I have >charged the battery. After I start the engine the voltage goes to 12.1. At >wide open throttle it shows 12.2. After I shut down the engine it showed >12.3 > >I put a brand new regulator/rectifer from Sonex in the plane. There is >continuity between the two wires coming from the stator. There is no >continuity between either wire and any of the poles of the stator. The winding is open. > >When I put my multimeter on the two wires coming from the stator, it showed >AC voltage in the 175 volt range at wide open throttle. AC voltage readings on modern multi-meters have to be tempered with the knowledge that their input impedance is very high . . . they will detect AC voltages on conductors in close proximity to some 'activity' but are in fact not capable of carrying any power . . . broken. > >If figured if I was getting that many volts I would run a test to see if it >would light a light bulb. It did not. Paragraph above confirmed. > >Clearly something is rotten in Denmark, or New Hampshire as the case maybe. > >I am open to any help/suggestions as the testing or rectifying (so to speak) >of the problem. Stator winding is open somewhere. Does it look over-heated or smell 'cooked'? > >Second issue. Antennas. In your book page 13-24 you talk about the poor >mans coax termination. You say to keep the distance between the center >wire and the shielding ground wire as short as possible. My question is >what can the distance be before it is not effective? It's ALWAYS effective with deleterious effects being a matter of degree. > By distance I assume >that you mean the distance between the end of the center wire and the place >where you strip off the shielding wire. I would like to build my own >antenna, but it seems somewhat daunting. How about this? http://tinyurl.com/madgr9v > >Thanks for any help. Really liked your book. I'm pleased that you found it useful. Suggest you join us on the AeroElectric List . . . a forum of with about 1500 other builders wrestling with the same questions you are . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Alternator Conversion to External Regulator.
From: "MikeDunlop" <mdunlop001(at)aol.com>
Date: Jul 04, 2014
I'm in the process of following Bob's advice and am about to convert a Nippondenso alternator to external regulator. After a lot of searching and research I've come across the following two methods. I need some advice and input before I start (measure twice, cut once!) 1. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/One-Wire_Alternator_Conversion.pdf ---------------------- 2. http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/georger/Alternator.htm In this article it states: Before we start we need to know one piece of important information about your charging circuit. There are two main types of alternators and we need to know which type you need. The types are known as Type A and Type B. The difference being where the regulator fits in relation to the alternator. In type A circuits the layout is in the order of: BUS(+ve) - then - Alternator field - then - Regulator - then - Earth. Therefore the regulator controls the earth feed to the Alternator field. In type B circuits the layout is in the order of: BUS(+ve) - then - Regulator - then - Alternator field - then - Earth. Therefore the regulator controls the voltage feed to the Alternator field Basically it is a matter of polarity. Simple but VITALLY important. So before reading the rest.. Find out what you need !! I think Z-13/8 is a type B circuit... Please correct me if I'm wrong. ---------------------- My understanding of both articles: 1. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/One-Wire_Alternator_Conversion.pdf a) Modification of the main alternator housing i.e remove copper attachment and the plastic nut retaining pocket. Then drill/tap the casing for the new attachment. b) Modify the regulator. 2. http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/georger/Alternator.htm. a) Modify the regulator. b) Then the brushes need a small modification. My assumptions are: In the event of having to replace an alternator sometime in the future it would be easier with number 2. (Alternator.htm) because you could use the existing modified regulator housing and just carry out the small modification on the brushes. I think Z-13/8 is a type B circuit... Please correct me if I'm wrong. Any thoughts or experiences on the above? Regards MikeD (UK) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426077#426077 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 04, 2014
From: Linda Walker <l.p(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Alternator woes.
Bob.=0AIf you could please comment on the following:=0A=0AAllowing for a 0. 7-0.9 volt drop across the diode from main to endurance bus, I am measuring varying voltages on the endurance bus in flight.=0AWhat should be 13.5-13. 7v to allow for the battery to be charged at 14.4v, I am finding voltages t hat vary from 12.2v to 13.5v at constant cruise rpm.=0A=0AAny idea for trou bleshooting what is causing the voltage to vary so much?=0A=0A=0AChecking t he voltage on the main bus, but now on the ground, I am seeing voltages tha t vary with engine rpm, 550 rpm at idle to 2200rpm, of 14.06v to 14.22v res pectively.=0A=0AIs this variance within tolerances of the LR3C regulator? I had expected that the regulator would keep the voltage within a tighter ra nge.=0A=0AAs an aside, I am experiencing a strange anomoly that sometimes w hen I transmit the transponder turns itself off. Both are Garmin products, GNS530 and GTX330, and are powered from the endurance bus. =0A=0AComments i nvited please.=0A=0AIt is unfortunate that these woes come and go and I'd r eally like to cure them once and for all.=0A=0A=0AAircraft is- Long-EZ us ing an "all electric airplane on a budget" architecture, with all B and C e quipment, 60A alternator, SD-8 dynamo and 32AH battery.=0A=0AMany thanks. =0APatrick Elliott.=0AG-LGEZ=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator woes.
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 05, 2014
A loose or corroded connection can produce the symptom that you describe. Check every connection in the alternator field circuit and in the transponder circuit, both negative and positive sides. Any switches or circuit breakers or fuses in the problem circuit are also suspect. Bad connections are easier to find if the circuit is heavily loaded while checking for voltage drops in both negative an positive wires. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426175#426175 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Portable Intercom
Date: Jul 06, 2014
Now that I'm starting to carry passengers in my non-electrical equipped Cygnet, I need a good intercom. Currently, I use a push to talk switch with my handheld I-COM radio, antenna mounted on the windscreen. I use a David Clark headset and everything works great. Now, I need to go to some type of battery powered voice activated intercom that I can also talk/listen to my radio on. I would be interested in hearing what others have done and what you believe is my best option. Thank, Jerry Folkerts ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator woes.
At 11:02 AM 7/4/2014, you wrote: Bob. If you could please comment on the following: Allowing for a 0.7-0.9 volt drop across the diode from main to endurance bus, I am measuring varying voltages on the endurance bus in flight. What should be 13.5-13.7v to allow for the battery to be charged at 14.4v, I am finding voltages that vary from 12.2v to 13.5v at constant cruise rpm. Any idea for troubleshooting what is causing the voltage to vary so much? Yes, as Joe has noted, these voltages are consistent with intermittent alternator function. 13.6 on the e-bus is consistent with alternator operating, 12.2 says the alternator is inoperative and you're running battery only. Checking the voltage on the main bus, but now on the ground, I am seeing voltages that vary with engine rpm, 550 rpm at idle to 2200rpm, of 14.06v to 14.22v respectively. Is this variance within tolerances of the LR3C regulator? I had expected that the regulator would keep the voltage within a tighter range. Yes, we COULD design for tighter regulation but there's a risk of unstable operation over the full constellation of system variables. a plus or minus variation about the center of your set-point over variations in load is expected and acceptable. As an aside, I am experiencing a strange anomoly that sometimes when I transmit the transponder turns itself off. Both are Garmin products, GNS530 and GTX330, and are powered from the endurance bus. Where is your comm antenna located and what kind of antenna is it? Comments invited please. It is unfortunate that these woes come and go and I'd really like to cure them once and for all. Aircraft is Long-EZ using an "all electric airplane on a budget" architecture, with all B and C equipment, 60A alternator, SD-8 dynamo and 32AH battery. Your second problem has the 'smell' of an RF overload due to strong fields in the cockpit. This is of particular risk in a plastic airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Portable Intercom
Now that I'm starting to carry passengers in my non-electrical equipped Cygnet, I need a good intercom. Currently, I use a push to talk switch with my handheld I-COM radio, antenna mounted on the windscreen. I use a David Clark headset and everything works great. Now, I need to go to some type of battery powered voice activated intercom that I can also talk/listen to my radio on. I would be interested in hearing what others have done and what you believe is my best option. There are dozens of perfectly adequate intercoms with variable noise squelch adjustments. The CRITICAL quality for intercom performance is the noise-cancelling ability of your microphones. The WORSE they are, the tighter the squelch setting and POORER signal to noise ratio when you talk. David Clark has been a kind of benchmark for headset performance . . . but there are some really low priced products that work well too. Telex Echelons used to be a brand that I fitted into our J3 at 1K1 . . . and have two pairs in my flight bag. I think I gave about $125 a pair for them . . . in 1990 . . . but they were about half the price of David Clarks. There are some excellent buys in portable intercoms on eBay . . . here's just one http://tinyurl.com/kdq9z4o the short path to satisfactory intercom performance is to us the SAME model headset for both slots . . . You'll want similar if not identical microphones to maximize probability of success. Mix-match headsets are not automatically problematic but it does add another variable that may tax your $time$. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
At 09:09 AM 7/4/2014, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >I'm searching for a two-position, momentary, DPDT, full size (panel >mount, ideally with tab terminations but screws would be fine too) >toggle switch and I have been unable to find one from Carling or others. > >Do you know of a source? Is it in the Carling catalog and I'm just >not seeing it? I'm having trouble believing it's not readily >available but I'm just not seeing it... The Carling catalog is a convoluted thing . . . but yes . . . what you want is in there. Emacs! The part number works out to be 6GL5B-73 which you can find in the top item listed at: http://tinyurl.com/qyb4ck8 They have 94 in stock Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Guido von Allmen <lapulce(at)sunrise.ch>
Subject: LiFePo Battery
Date: Jul 06, 2014
Hello Bob and who it may concerne, I am quite new to this group. I recently bought in Friedrichshafen at the Aero 2014 a new LiFePo battery from AeroAkku ( model LFP450 D Starter Battery for Lyc 0-320 ) The vendor told me that these batteries are built with A123 Systems elements APR 18650M1. Do you know this product ( it looks like a german assembly ) and has someone of this list some or even extended experience with this type of battery in general aviation especially concerning how to recharge and reliability. Thanks in advance Guido ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "wynaire" <wynaire(at)citlink.net>
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
Date: Jul 06, 2014
Thanks for the info, fellows. Timely, as usual! Just the place I needed to search for a replacement flap-switch for the yet unfinished [but close?] LNC2 dream-machine. Now to find the paddle-tab. Interesting how age becomes a threat to finishing, versus inspiration... Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: Steve Stearns ; aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 10:00 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: My toggle switch quest... At 09:09 AM 7/4/2014, you wrote: Hi Bob, I'm searching for a two-position, momentary, DPDT, full size (panel mount, ideally with tab terminations but screws would be fine too) toggle switch and I have been unable to find one from Carling or others. Do you know of a source? Is it in the Carling catalog and I'm just not seeing it? I'm having trouble believing it's not readily available but I'm just not seeing it... The Carling catalog is a convoluted thing . . . but yes . . . what you want is in there. The part number works out to be 6GL5B-73 which you can find in the top item listed at: http://tinyurl.com/qyb4ck8 They have 94 in stock Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "wynaire" <wynaire(at)citlink.net>
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
Date: Jul 06, 2014
----- Original Message ----- From: wynaire To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 1:58 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: My toggle switch quest... Thanks for the info, fellows. Timely, as usual! Just the place I needed to search for a replacement flap-switch for the yet unfinished [but close?] LNC2 dream-machine. Now to find the paddle-tab. Interesting how age becomes a threat to finishing, versus inspiration... Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: Steve Stearns ; aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 10:00 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: My toggle switch quest... At 09:09 AM 7/4/2014, you wrote: Hi Bob, I'm searching for a two-position, momentary, DPDT, full size (panel mount, ideally with tab terminations but screws would be fine too) toggle switch and I have been unable to find one from Carling or others. Do you know of a source? Is it in the Carling catalog and I'm just not seeing it? I'm having trouble believing it's not readily available but I'm just not seeing it... The Carling catalog is a convoluted thing . . . but yes . . . what you want is in there. The part number works out to be 6GL5B-73 which you can find in the top item listed at: http://tinyurl.com/qyb4ck8 They have 94 in stock Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
At 03:47 PM 7/6/2014, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:wynaire(at)citlink.net>wynaire >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 1:58 PM >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: My toggle switch quest... > >Thanks for the info, fellows. Timely, as usual! Just the place I >needed to search for a replacement flap-switch for the yet >unfinished [but close?] LNC2 dream-machine. Now to find the >paddle-tab. Interesting how age becomes a threat to finishing, >versus inspiration... See http://tinyurl.com/kqd8d4u for DIY paddle-tab for flap switches. Is the switch you're looking for intended to operate flaps? The 3-position, dpdt, on-off-(on) is usually selected for this task. You described a two position on-none-(on). Are you sure you don't want the 3-position? That would be a 6GM5B-73 Do a google search on carling 6gm5b-73 . . . lots of folks stock this one too. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
Found this tabulation of Carling switches that makes it a bit easier to identify a part number for our favorite series of swtiches. Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Jul 06, 2014
Or: http://www.aerosportproducts.com/flapswitch.htm Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 6 Jul 2014, at 11:04 pm, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroel ectric.com> wrote: > > At 03:47 PM 7/6/2014, you wrote: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: wynaire >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 1:58 PM >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: My toggle switch quest... >> >> Thanks for the info, fellows. Timely, as usual! Just the place I needed t o search for a replacement flap-switch for the yet unfinished [but close?] L NC2 dream-machine. Now to find the paddle-tab. Interesting how age becomes a threat to finishing, versus inspiration... > > See http://tinyurl.com/kqd8d4u for DIY paddle-tab > for flap switches. Is the switch you're looking for > intended to operate flaps? The 3-position, dpdt, > on-off-(on) is usually selected for this task. You > described a two position on-none-(on). > > Are you sure you don't want the 3-position? That > would be a 6GM5B-73 > > Do a google search on carling 6gm5b-73 . . . lots > of folks stock this one too. > > > > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
At 05:36 PM 7/6/2014, you wrote: >Or: ><http://www.aerosportproducts.com/flapswitch.htm>http://www.aerosportproducts.com/flapswitch.htm > >Sent from my iPad Good find . . . OOPS . . .just remembered. If you're going to do a DIY flap switch, you need a toggle switch with a captive handle. It needs to pivot on a shaft so that the flap tab stays oriented horizontally. The Carling switches have ball-joints on their metal 'bat' handles and will spin. The Microswitch part for this application is a 2TL1-5 http://tinyurl.com/n67zy9z . . . which is a bit pricey . . . the prefab assembly from aero sport products starts looking like a pretty good deal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
Date: Jul 06, 2014
Is that flap looking like switch a requirement for certified aircraft? I never really understood why one would pay so much for a switch that "sort" of looks like a flap. In fact, the first few airplanes I flew had them but I never really thought of it as looking like a flap. It's just what flap switches look like. I guess I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. BTW, Does this mean there are meanings for the shapes of the pitch and mixture knobs too? About to feel even dumber. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 3:58 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: My toggle switch quest... At 05:36 PM 7/6/2014, you wrote: Or: http://www.aerosportproducts.com/flapswitch.htm Sent from my iPad Good find . . . OOPS . . .just remembered. If you're going to do a DIY flap switch, you need a toggle switch with a captive handle. It needs to pivot on a shaft so that the flap tab stays oriented horizontally. The Carling switches have ball-joints on their metal 'bat' handles and will spin. The Microswitch part for this application is a 2TL1-5 http://tinyurl.com/n67zy9z . . . which is a bit pricey . . . the prefab assembly from aero sport products starts looking like a pretty good deal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 2014
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
I figured the pointy bits on the mixture knob were there to remind me of pointy flames, while the rounded bits on the prop knob were there to remind me of what most prop tips look like when they aren't shortened. Maybe that's just me imprinting my own meaning though. I suppose it doesn't matter what the shapes actually are, as long as they are different enough that I can identify them by feel. On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 8:21 PM, B Tomm wrote: > Is that flap looking like switch a requirement for certified aircraft? > I never really understood why one would pay so much for a switch that > "sort" of looks like a flap. In fact, the first few airplanes I flew had > them but I never really thought of it as looking like a flap. It's just > what flap switches look like. I guess I'm not the sharpest knife in the > drawer. > > BTW, Does this mean there are meanings for the shapes of the pitch and > mixture knobs too? About to feel even dumber. > > Bevan > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
At 07:21 PM 7/6/2014, you wrote: >Is that flap looking like switch a requirement for certified >aircraft? I never really understood why one would pay so much for a >switch that "sort" of looks like a flap. In fact, the first few >airplanes I flew had them but I never really thought of it as >looking like a flap. It's just what flap switches look like. I >guess I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. > >BTW, Does this mean there are meanings for the shapes of the pitch >and mixture knobs too? About to feel even dumber. Yes, attention has been paid to human factors in cockpit design and layout since day-one . . . although the earliest efforts just made sure the pilot could reach the rudder pedals. Since the Wright brother's days, the list of noteworthy concerns has grown both as a matter of policy and regulation. Same thing goes on with cars and other machines. The list of 'good things to do' necessarily includes controls for shape, colors, locations and forces needed to operate them. Bottom line is that while not required for your OMAM aircraft, it's a good thing not to depart greatly from legacy cockpit design philosophies . . . if only to make your airplane less risky for the next pilot who owns it. Somewhere in the archives I have a copy of the cert plan for a couple of airplanes. They are lengthy documents and touch on hundreds of things seldom considered in OBAM aircraft. I'll see if I can find one and publish . . . interesting reading. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: My toggle switch quest...
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Jul 07, 2014
Tom: you forgot to mention the colour of the knobs too Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 7 Jul 2014, at 01:21 am, "B Tomm" wrote: > > Is that flap looking like switch a requirement for certified aircraft? I n ever really understood why one would pay so much for a switch that "sort" of looks like a flap. In fact, the first few airplanes I flew had them but I n ever really thought of it as looking like a flap. It's just what flap switc hes look like. I guess I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. > > BTW, Does this mean there are meanings for the shapes of the pitch and mix ture knobs too? About to feel even dumber. > > Bevan > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 3:58 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: My toggle switch quest... > > At 05:36 PM 7/6/2014, you wrote: >> Or: http://www.aerosportproducts.com/flapswitch.htm >> >> Sent from my iPad > > Good find . . . OOPS . . .just remembered. > If you're going to do a DIY flap switch, > you need a toggle switch with a captive > handle. It needs to pivot on a shaft so > that the flap tab stays oriented horizontally. > The Carling switches have ball-joints on their > metal 'bat' handles and will spin. > > The Microswitch part for this application is > a 2TL1-5 > > http://tinyurl.com/n67zy9z > > . . . which is a bit pricey . . . the prefab > assembly from aero sport products starts > looking like a pretty good deal. > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 07, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Aeronautical idiosyncrasies, was Re: My toggle
switch quest... At 02:42 AM 7/7/2014, you wrote: >Re: > >=C2 =C2 Yes, attention has been paid to human factors >=C2 =C2 in cockpit design and layout since day-one . . . > >Just as a curious data point, in the WWII plane >I fly on the side throttles forward is more >power, props forward is more power, blowers >forward is more power, mixtures forward is >suddenly silent. =C2 Every departure requires a >quiet moment reviewing the several gotchas in >the cockpit lest reflex cause a debacle. Interesting! I've never encountered a 'variance' with so much perceived significance and potential risk. Which airplane? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 07, 2014
Subject: Re: Aeronautical idiosyncrasies, was Re: My toggle
switc... For what it is worth! All of United Air Lines' DC-3s had the mixture full forward for idle cut off, but we also had four C-47s that had been purchased to use as Cargo Liners and pilot trainers. They had the mixtures set so that full forward w as full rich and aft was Idle Cut Off. We also had some DC-4s in which some fuel tanks were on with the levers forward while other DC-4s had to have the levers aft for tanks ON. Many DC-8s had switches on the overhead panel such that ON was forward while others had the same switches set so that aft was ON. Makes you learn to pay attention. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 7/7/2014 8:01:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes: At 02:42 AM 7/7/2014, you wrote: Re: =C2 =C2 Yes, attention has been paid to human factors =C2 =C2 in cockpit design and layout since day-one . . . Just as a curious data point, in the WWII plane I fly on the side throttles forward is more power, props forward is more power, blowers forw ard is more power, mixtures forward is suddenly silent. =C2 Every departure requi res a quiet moment reviewing the several gotchas in the cockpit lest reflex cause a debacle. Interesting! I've never encountered a 'variance' with so much perceived significance and potential risk. Which airplane? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Valin & Allyson Thorn" <thorn(at)starflight.aero>
Subject: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert
Date: Jul 05, 2014
Hey gang, We'd like a simple way to light up an engine fire/compartment temperature annunciator on our instrument panel. We will be using a G3X Touch auxiliary temperature input to measure under-cowling temperatures. But, we will have a simple on panel annunciator for "Engine Fire" and the G3X doesn't provide a discrete output for that. What's the best way to do this? We just need a switch that will close at a set temperature. We don't know that temperature yet and will use the G3X measured data to get a normal baseline and set some level above that as a fire alert. So it would be good if it were a switch that closed at a temperature and was adjustable? Guessing between 180 - 200 DegF. Thanks, Valin Lancair Legacy Project Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert
Date: Jul 07, 2014
A few years ago, Mark Steitle from Austin texas demonstrated a sensor and circuit that detected flame, not temperature. It looks for a specific frequency generated by a flame, You might google flame detectors to find a similar device From: Valin & Allyson Thorn Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2014 2:22 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert Hey gang, We=99d like a simple way to light up an engine fire/compartment temperature annunciator on our instrument panel. We will be using a G3X Touch auxiliary temperature input to measure under-cowling temperatures. But, we will have a simple on panel annunciator for =9CEngine Fire=9D and the G3X doesn=99t provide a discrete output for that. What=99s the best way to do this? We just need a switch that will close at a set temperature. We don=99t know that temperature yet and will use the G3X measured data to get a normal baseline and set some level above that as a fire alert. So it would be good if it were a switch that closed at a temperature and was adjustable? Guessing between 180 =93 200 DegF. Thanks, Valin Lancair Legacy Project Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net>
Subject: Noisy USB Charger
Date: Jul 07, 2014
I have seven years and 750 mostly trouble free flying hours on my Z 13-8 electrical system. I recently bought a Stratus 2 from Sporty's to give me inflight weather and TFRs on my iPad. To keep both the Stratus and the iPad charged on long cross country flights, I installed a cigar lighter and bought a dual USB charger to go into the cigar lighter socket. I bought a dual power (2 USB ports, each 2.1 amps) USB charger from a nationally known pilot supply company. I tried it with just the Stratus 2 plugged in. After ten minutes, I started getting static on my communication radio (Garmin SL-30). At first, it was rapidly intermittent, sounding like some kind of code. After another ten minutes, it was constant static, sounding like it was breaking squelch. This happened on more than one communication frequency. I've never had any radio frequency interference problems before. Would something like these ferrite toroids help? A friend thought I should wind both the positive and negative supply wires around separate toroids. https://www.amidoncorp.com/ft-50a-43c/ Thanks, Dennis ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Jul 07, 2014
Beechcraft uses IR sensors in the king airs to detect fire. These should be c ommercially available. They are susceptible to false indications when sunlight shines on them direc tly or indirectly. Justin On Jul 7, 2014, at 15:51, "William Schertz" wrote: > A few years ago, Mark Steitle from Austin texas demonstrated a sensor and circuit that detected flame, not temperature. It looks for a specific frequ ency generated by a flame, You might google flame detectors to find a simila r device > > From: Valin & Allyson Thorn > Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2014 2:22 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert > > Hey gang, > > We=99d like a simple way to light up an engine fire/compartment temp erature annunciator on our instrument panel. We will be using a G3X Touch a uxiliary temperature input to measure under-cowling temperatures. But, we w ill have a simple on panel annunciator for =9CEngine Fire=9D and the G3X doesn=99t provide a discrete output for that. > > What=99s the best way to do this? We just need a switch that will c lose at a set temperature. We don=99t know that temperature yet and w ill use the G3X measured data to get a normal baseline and set some level ab ove that as a fire alert. So it would be good if it were a switch that clos ed at a temperature and was adjustable? Guessing between 180 =93 200 DegF. > > Thanks, > > Valin > Lancair Legacy Project > Colorado > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 2014
Subject: Re: Aeronautical idiosyncrasies
From: GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com>
> > > >Re: > > > >=C2 =C2 Yes, attention has been paid to human factors > >=C2 =C2 in cockpit design and layout since day-one . . . > > > >Just as a curious data point, in the WWII plane > >I fly on the side throttles forward is more > >power, props forward is more power, blowers > >forward is more power, mixtures forward is > >suddenly silent. =C2 Every departure requires a > >quiet moment reviewing the several gotchas in > >the cockpit lest reflex cause a debacle. > > Interesting! I've never encountered a 'variance' > with so much perceived significance and > potential risk. > > Which airplane? > > > Bob . . > Lockheed PV-2 Harpoon. There are other issues, as well... Alternate air > forward is hot, and the landing gear and flap levers are identical and > symmetrically located. Keeps you on your toes! > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Noisy USB Charger
At 07:55 PM 7/7/2014, you wrote: I have seven years and 750 mostly trouble free flying hours on my Z 13-8 electrical system. I recently bought a Stratus 2 from Sporty's to give me inflight weather and TFRs on my iPad. To keep both the Stratus and the iPad charged on long cross country flights, I installed a cigar lighter and bought a dual USB charger to go into the cigar lighter socket. I bought a dual power (2 USB ports, each 2.1 amps) USB charger from a nationally known pilot supply company. I tried it with just the Stratus 2 plugged in. After ten minutes, I started getting static on my communication radio (Garmin SL-30). At first, it was rapidly intermittent, sounding like some kind of code. After another ten minutes, it was constant static, sounding like it was breaking squelch. This happened on more than one communication frequency. I've never had any radio frequency interference problems before. Would something like these ferrite toroids help? A friend thought I should wind both the positive and negative supply wires around separate toroids. https://www.amidoncorp.com/ft-50a-43c/ Commercial off the shelf USB chargers for either line-powered or 12v are at most qualified for FCC Part 15 rules for radiated and conducted noise. I've encountered some pretty noisy devices in both venues. If you want to 'tame' the device you have, any experiments you want to conduct are not without merit . . . but you may find it much more economical to buy a couple of brands (they're cheap) and see which one is friendly to your aircraft environment. You can spend a lot of $time$ trying to civilize a $10 gizmo. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 08, 2014
An easy way to monitor temperature is with a thermocouple connected to an EMS. The alarm set-point can be easily changed with software. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426284#426284 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jul 08, 2014
DX.com has Arduino compatible flame detector modules for $2.43 with FREE SHIPPING. Since it has only four leads, it should be easy to use with other electronics too. Little trim pot for sensitivity too. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426290#426290 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 08, 2014
How about a SPDT temperature switch like the CCD101N-200 http://www.omega.com/pptst/CCD100.html Many appliances contain an inexpensive high temperature limit switch, but are usually normally closed, open on high temp. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426291#426291 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/hi_temp_limit_210.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 08, 2014
Subject: Re: Aeronautical idiosyncrasies
Good Morning All, Such was not uncommon before and during WWII. United Air Lines had a fleet of 95 DC-3s when I started working for them. All of our DC-3s had the mixture full aft for auto rich and full forward for idle cutoff. We also had four C-47s purchased post WWII to use as cargo liners and pilot trainers. They had the mixture the other way around. Some of our DC-4s had Fuel Tank valves that moved on or off in a direction opposite to other DC-4s in the fleet. Such odd setups moved into the Jet Fleets as well Many DC-8s were built such that all switches on the over head panel were forward for on while other DC-8s had the same switches oriented so that aft was on. As long as the pilots were properly trained to be ready for the difference it was not a big problem. Occasional mistakes were made, but an awareness of the possibilty alllowed for quick remediation. Sometimes it pays to be a little hesitant before taking action without thought! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 7/8/2014 2:50:07 A.M. Central Daylight Time, fly4grins(at)gmail.com writes: >Re: > >=C2 =C2 Yes, attention has been paid to human factors >=C2 =C2 in cockpit design and layout since day-one . . . > >Just as a curious data point, in the WWII plane >I fly on the side throttles forward is more >power, props forward is more power, blowers >forward is more power, mixtures forward is >suddenly silent. =C2 Every departure requires a >quiet moment reviewing the several gotchas in >the cockpit lest reflex cause a debacle. Interesting! I've never encountered a 'variance' with so much perceived significance and potential risk. Which airplane? Bob . . Lockheed PV-2 Harpoon. There are other issues, as well... Alternate air forward is hot, and the landing gear and flap levers are identical and symmetrically located. Keeps you on your toes! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jul 08, 2014
> How about a SPDT temperature switch like the CCD101N-200 This "fire detection" problem has been worked on for decades. The problem with IR detectors is that a positive signal doesn't necessarily mean there is a fire. Hot exhausts are very hot, while a fire might begin as reasonably cold per unit volume. (The Sun's corona is only a few watts per cubic meter!). So they like to detect the UV frequencies of the light. But HEY! how about a home fire/smoke detector? There's an experiment to try. But I'd try the DX.com part first. And keep in mind that cameras are cheap too! -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426300#426300 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert
Goto Freepatentsonline.com and get a copy of 3665440 for a pretty comprehensive look at the UV/IR approach to flame detection Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 08, 2014
Subject: Fwd: Help ID components
Can someone help me ID these components? These seem to be dropping the voltage from a rechargeable NiCad battery in a Fluke meter. These are the first components that the battery grounds see between the battery and the rest of the board. Any ideas? The look like they took some kind of hit. They fell off when I touched the wire with a probe. The long end of the lead seemed to be melted off its junction with the PC board. One of the little cubes left part of itself attached to the board. I don't see any markings on either one, but they're tiny so I may be missing it. Sure would like to make this meter work on the battery--works fine with the wall charger. Photos attached, one for detail, one for scale. Thanks! --Dave Saylor ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Help ID components
> >Sure would like to make this meter work on the battery--works fine >with the wall charger. > >Photos attached, one for detail, one for scale. > >Thanks! > >--Dave Saylor Nothing I recognize. I did get your 'tingling wall wart'. I'll go out to the lab tomorrow and see what I can find with it. What model Fluke are we talking about? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion to External Regulator.
0805074.pdf Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Conversion to External Regulator. From: "MikeDunlop" <mdunlop001(at)aol.com> I'm in the process of following Bob's advice and am about to convert a Nippondenso alternator to external regulator. After a lot of searching and research I've come across the following two methods. 1. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/One-Wire_Alternator_Conversion.pdf 2. http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/georger/Alternator.htm In this article it states: Before we start we need to know one piece of important information about your charging circuit. There are two main types of alternators and we need to know which type you need. The types are known as Type A and Type B. The difference being where the regulator fits in relation to the alternator. WWwaayyy back when, it was not uncommon for a designer of automotive generators to pick one of two wiring configurations for the machine's field winding connections. http://www.cj3a.info/tech/chargingb.jpg A 'type-A' configuration attached one end of the field winding to the armature + power output terminal. Pulling the field DOWN to ground through an external regulator had the effect of increasing the generator's output voltage. "Type-B" wiring attached one end of the field to the armature - brush (ground). Pulling the field UP to bus voltage through the regulator caused the machine to come alive and produce power. I've seen both styles of field wiring in automotive generators. However, both generators and alternators for airplanes have been pull-up-to-bus or type-B configuration is the configuration of choice . . . that choice is reflected in ALL AeroElectric drawings. I've never encountered an internal alternator regulator configured for type-B (pull-up). As the articles state for ND alternator conversion, part of the mod calls for cutting one of brush connection loose from the B-terminal so that it can be grounded . . . thus converting it from type-A pull-down to type-B pull-up. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 08, 2014
Subject: Re: Fwd: Help ID components
123 Scopemeter The battery has 4 leads. I assume two are for temp sense. Those little guys come one each off of battery (-) and one of the presumed temp wires. Thanks, I'd like to know more about the charger too. FWIW these are unrelated. On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > >> Sure would like to make this meter work on the battery--works fine with >> the wall charger. >> >> Photos attached, one for detail, one for scale. >> >> Thanks! >> >> --Dave Saylor >> > > Nothing I recognize. I did get your 'tingling wall wart'. > I'll go out to the lab tomorrow and see what I can > find with it. > > What model Fluke are we talking about? > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Help ID components
Date: Jul 08, 2014
David, I suspect they are "surface mounted" components that should not be free from the circuit board. They could be resistance or capacitance devices. D ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: David Saylor To: aeroelectric-list Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 5:01 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: Help ID components Can someone help me ID these components? These seem to be dropping the voltage from a rechargeable NiCad battery in a Fluke meter. These are the first components that the battery grounds see between the battery and the rest of the board. Any ideas? The look like they took some kind of hit. They fell off when I touched the wire with a probe. The long end of the lead seemed to be melted off its junction with the PC board. One of the little cubes left part of itself attached to the board. I don't see any markings on either one, but they're tiny so I may be missing it. Sure would like to make this meter work on the battery--works fine with the wall charger. Photos attached, one for detail, one for scale. Thanks! --Dave Saylor ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 2014
Subject: wall warts
From: GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com>
> > HI Bob- speaking of: > > ... I did get your 'tingling wall wart'... > > were you able to tinker with / learn anything from the potentially malfunctioning battery tender? Inquiring minds want to know! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine Fire/Compartment Temperature Alert
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jul 09, 2014
Or maybe better yet: Google: fire detection techniques -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426368#426368 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: iPod shocks
Got out to the lab this morning with Dave's 'tingly' wall-wart. Connected the two ac mains tabs together as one terminal. Tied all wires in a USB cable together and stuck the connector into the wall-wart's output jack. The test-set I had access to didn't offer the 1,500 VAC/ 2,200 VDC test levels commonly used for line powered equipment. Made three 'hi-pot' measurements at 250, 500 and 1000 VDC each. All the average value of measured leakage resistance was 55,000 ohms. One would have liked to test this power supply at about 2200 VDC and look for a leakage current less that 0.5 mA translating to a resistance on the order of 4.4 Megohms. The relative stability of leakage resistance over the 250-1000 VDC test range suggests that barring arc-over failure, the leakage current at 2200 volts would be on the order of 2200/55,000 = 0.04A or abut 80x the test target. I disassembled the test article to capture these images. http://tinyurl.com/oxbyprq http://tinyurl.com/oahyg4a http://tinyurl.com/pfbsxbo http://tinyurl.com/pjnwyom I'll do some additional testing to see if I can repeat Dave's measurements at the wall socket. But in any case, this particular design would probably not pass any organization's safety testing reqluirements. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 2014
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: sundry questions
At 10:07 AM 7/9/2014, you wrote: >BTW, I've read your book. Very nice for a first time builder. Thank you. >Hope you don't mind a few questions. Not at all . . . but I would like for you to join the AeroElectric-List for any future conversation. It's always a good thing when we share these conversations with the community. >I plan on going with fuses for the majority of the circuit >protection as you recommended. When I went to your web site to find >fuse blocks and bus bars, I had a hard time navigating through the >site. Do you have an online product catalog, or is that something I >have to buy? When I clicked on the link the first time, an order >form came up. I tried again at a later time and finally made it to >the fuse block section, but the pdf descriptions that came up was >hardly readable. I don't sell any hardware at present. I have in the past but right now, B&C at http://bandc.biz has the vast majority of my legacy products and merchandise. I'm talking with them about upgrades to products and getting some new items. Time is my tight commodity. I'm contracting for Beech/Cessna/Hawker and there aren't very many gray-beards around to remember how and why some things were done . . . waayyyyy back when. >I'm a vfr only pilot and am considering surface mounting an I-pad >mini on the dash as a backup. It would run Foreflight and >communicate with a Stratus Two. I've heard the pads tend to >overheat and was thinking about installing a cooling fan behind it >in the panel. Do you have any thoughts on this? What type fan >should I use to avoid RFI, etc? How many cfm? Do you have a >simpler idea, or am I needlessly worrying about the overheating problem? Folks on the List can better sources of information on this than I. I'm surprised about 'heat issues' . . . these things draw about 3-5 watts in operation, the vast majority of which gets turned into heat. Unless there are items with localized heat-dissipation issues (doubtful for a hand-held device), I would not expect there to be any problems for operational heating. However, these things are not designed to RESIDE on a panel of an airplane parked out in the sun. I sure wouldn't leave one in a parked airplane. >The other thing I was looking for was 12v usb port I could hardwire >near my panel (not a cigarette lighter adapter) so the pad would be >charged while in flight. Blue Sea makes usb ports for marine >application that looks good, but didn't know if you had any. That's a popular topic on the List. A number of builders have tried various commercial off the self 12v/USB power adapters with varying degrees of success. Depending on how handy you are with a soldering iron, you could craft an airplane- friendly, 14V to 5VUSB adapter starting with a reasonably robust assembly as a core . . . something like these . . . http://tinyurl.com/ovowqbu http://tinyurl.com/px42t7f . . . mounted in a metal enclosure and fitted with sure-to-work filters and over-load protection. Alternatively, something like this . . . http://tinyurl.com/pbvmbb3 . . . might be just fine in terms of performance and noise . . . you'd just have to try it. >I also read your article on using shielded cable for the LIghtspeed >electronic ignition instead of the coax. The use of epoxy to seal >the wiring seemed like a pain and was wondering if using a tighter >fitting, larger shielded wire with shrink wrapping would be ok. Are >the reasons for not using larger cable expense, flexibility, and weight? Klaus had a cow when I wrote that article . . . seems that coax cable was necessary if the system were going to generate 2" long sparks between coil towers. Going to shielded wire dropped the output to 1.5" sparks. Still about 100x more than needed to make the engine run but I'll have to concede a 'drop in performance'. The original problem with coax was his recommendation for using RG-58 . . . with insulation that drips off the wire when you try to solder it. He has since revised his recommendation to RG-400 coax . . . modern, hi-temp insulation. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: sundry questions
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jul 09, 2014
I think you'll be unhappy with a panel mounted Ipad, they will heat soak from the sun in a hurry and simply turn off. I use one however and love it, but I stow it out of the sun (and thieves) view when parked and just set it on my legs in flight. FWIW Tim > On Jul 9, 2014, at 2:16 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > At 10:07 AM 7/9/2014, you wrote: >> BTW, I've read your book. Very nice for a first time builder. > > Thank you. > >> Hope you don't mind a few questions. > > Not at all . . . but I would like for you to join the AeroElectric-List > for any future conversation. It's always a good thing when we share > these conversations with the community. > >> I plan on going with fuses for the majority of the circuit protection as you recommended. When I went to your web site to find fuse blocks and bus bars, I had a hard time navigating through the site. Do you have an online product catalog, or is that something I have to buy? When I clicked on the link the first time, an order form came up. I tried again at a later time and finally made it to the fuse block section, but the pdf descriptions that came up was hardly readable. > > I don't sell any hardware at present. I have in the > past but right now, B&C at http://bandc.biz has the > vast majority of my legacy products and merchandise. > I'm talking with them about upgrades to products and > getting some new items. Time is my tight commodity. > I'm contracting for Beech/Cessna/Hawker and there > aren't very many gray-beards around to remember how > and why some things were done . . . waayyyyy back when. > > >> I'm a vfr only pilot and am considering surface mounting an I-pad mini on the dash as a backup. It would run Foreflight and communicate with a Stratus Two. I've heard the pads tend to overheat and was thinking about installing a cooling fan behind it in the panel. Do you have any thoughts on this? What type fan should I use to avoid RFI, etc? How many cfm? Do you have a simpler idea, or am I needlessly worrying about the overheating problem? > > Folks on the List can better sources of information > on this than I. I'm surprised about 'heat issues' . . . > these things draw about 3-5 watts in operation, the > vast majority of which gets turned into heat. Unless > there are items with localized heat-dissipation issues > (doubtful for a hand-held device), I would not expect > there to be any problems for operational heating. > > However, these things are not designed to RESIDE on a > panel of an airplane parked out in the sun. I sure > wouldn't leave one in a parked airplane. > >> The other thing I was looking for was 12v usb port I could hardwire near my panel (not a cigarette lighter adapter) so the pad would be charged while in flight. Blue Sea makes usb ports for marine application that looks good, but didn't know if you had any. > > That's a popular topic on the List. A number of > builders have tried various commercial off the self > 12v/USB power adapters with varying degrees of > success. Depending on how handy you are with > a soldering iron, you could craft an airplane- > friendly, 14V to 5VUSB adapter starting with > a reasonably robust assembly as a core . . . > something like these . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/ovowqbu > > http://tinyurl.com/px42t7f > > > . . . mounted in a metal enclosure and fitted with > sure-to-work filters and over-load protection. > > Alternatively, something like this . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/pbvmbb3 > > . . . might be just fine in terms of performance > and noise . . . you'd just have to try it. > >> I also read your article on using shielded cable for the LIghtspeed electronic ignition instead of the coax. The use of epoxy to seal the wiring seemed like a pain and was wondering if using a tighter fitting, larger shielded wire with shrink wrapping would be ok. Are the reasons for not using larger cable expense, flexibility, and weight? > > Klaus had a cow when I wrote that article . . . seems > that coax cable was necessary if the system were going > to generate 2" long sparks between coil towers. Going > to shielded wire dropped the output to 1.5" sparks. > Still about 100x more than needed to make the engine run > but I'll have to concede a 'drop in performance'. > > The original problem with coax was his recommendation > for using RG-58 . . . with insulation that drips off > the wire when you try to solder it. He has since revised > his recommendation to RG-400 coax . . . modern, hi-temp > insulation. > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: sundry questions
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Jul 10, 2014
This is my 4year old grandson, flying P2, with my IPad suction mounted on my C172 John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 9 Jul 2014, at 11:40 pm, Tim Andres wrote: > > > > I think you'll be unhappy with a panel mounted Ipad, they will heat soak f rom the sun in a hurry and simply turn off. I use one however and love it, b ut I stow it out of the sun (and thieves) view when parked and just set it o n my legs in flight. > FWIW > Tim > >> On Jul 9, 2014, at 2:16 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroe lectric.com> wrote: >> lls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >> >> At 10:07 AM 7/9/2014, you wrote: >>> BTW, I've read your book. Very nice for a first time builder. >> >> Thank you. >> >>> Hope you don't mind a few questions. >> >> Not at all . . . but I would like for you to join the AeroElectric-List >> for any future conversation. It's always a good thing when we share >> these conversations with the community. >> >>> I plan on going with fuses for the majority of the circuit protection as you recommended. When I went to your web site to find fuse blocks and bus b ars, I had a hard time navigating through the site. Do you have an online p roduct catalog, or is that something I have to buy? When I clicked on the l ink the first time, an order form came up. I tried again at a later time an d finally made it to the fuse block section, but the pdf descriptions that c ame up was hardly readable. >> >> I don't sell any hardware at present. I have in the >> past but right now, B&C at http://bandc.biz has the >> vast majority of my legacy products and merchandise. >> I'm talking with them about upgrades to products and >> getting some new items. Time is my tight commodity. >> I'm contracting for Beech/Cessna/Hawker and there >> aren't very many gray-beards around to remember how >> and why some things were done . . . waayyyyy back when. >> >> >>> I'm a vfr only pilot and am considering surface mounting an I-pad mini o n the dash as a backup. It would run Foreflight and communicate with a Stra tus Two. I've heard the pads tend to overheat and was thinking about instal ling a cooling fan behind it in the panel. Do you have any thoughts on this ? What type fan should I use to avoid RFI, etc? How many cfm? Do you have a simpler idea, or am I needlessly worrying about the overheating problem? >> >> Folks on the List can better sources of information >> on this than I. I'm surprised about 'heat issues' . . . >> these things draw about 3-5 watts in operation, the >> vast majority of which gets turned into heat. Unless >> there are items with localized heat-dissipation issues >> (doubtful for a hand-held device), I would not expect >> there to be any problems for operational heating. >> >> However, these things are not designed to RESIDE on a >> panel of an airplane parked out in the sun. I sure >> wouldn't leave one in a parked airplane. >> >>> The other thing I was looking for was 12v usb port I could hardwire near my panel (not a cigarette lighter adapter) so the pad would be charged whil e in flight. Blue Sea makes usb ports for marine application that looks goo d, but didn't know if you had any. >> >> That's a popular topic on the List. A number of >> builders have tried various commercial off the self >> 12v/USB power adapters with varying degrees of >> success. Depending on how handy you are with >> a soldering iron, you could craft an airplane- >> friendly, 14V to 5VUSB adapter starting with >> a reasonably robust assembly as a core . . . >> something like these . . . >> >> http://tinyurl.com/ovowqbu >> >> http://tinyurl.com/px42t7f >> >> >> . . . mounted in a metal enclosure and fitted with >> sure-to-work filters and over-load protection. >> >> Alternatively, something like this . . . >> >> http://tinyurl.com/pbvmbb3 >> >> . . . might be just fine in terms of performance >> and noise . . . you'd just have to try it. >> >>> I also read your article on using shielded cable for the LIghtspeed elec tronic ignition instead of the coax. The use of epoxy to seal the wiring se emed like a pain and was wondering if using a tighter fitting, larger shield ed wire with shrink wrapping would be ok. Are the reasons for not using lar ger cable expense, flexibility, and weight? >> >> Klaus had a cow when I wrote that article . . . seems >> that coax cable was necessary if the system were going >> to generate 2" long sparks between coil towers. Going >> to shielded wire dropped the output to 1.5" sparks. >> Still about 100x more than needed to make the engine run >> but I'll have to concede a 'drop in performance'. >> >> The original problem with coax was his recommendation >> for using RG-58 . . . with insulation that drips off >> the wire when you try to solder it. He has since revised >> his recommendation to RG-400 coax . . . modern, hi-temp >> insulation. >> >> >> Bob . . . > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > >

      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: sundry questions
Date: Jul 09, 2014
Test! Old Bob In a message dated 7/9/2014 4:19:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:07 AM 7/9/2014, you wrote: >BTW, I've read your book. Very nice for a first time builder. Thank you. >Hope you don't mind a few questions. Not at all . . . but I would like for you to join the AeroElectric-List for any future conversation. It's always a good thing when we share these conversations with the community. >I plan on going with fuses for the majority of the circuit >protection as you recommended. When I went to your web site to find >fuse blocks and bus bars, I had a hard time navigating through the >site. Do you have an online product catalog, or is that something I >have to buy? When I clicked on the link the first time, an order >form came up. I tried again at a later time and finally made it to >the fuse block section, but the pdf descriptions that came up was >hardly readable. I don't sell any hardware at present. I have in the past but right now, B&C at http://bandc.biz has the vast majority of my legacy products and merchandise. I'm talking with them about upgrades to products and getting some new items. Time is my tight commodity. I'm contracting for Beech/Cessna/Hawker and there aren't very many gray-beards around to remember how and why some things were done . . . waayyyyy back when. >I'm a vfr only pilot and am considering surface mounting an I-pad >mini on the dash as a backup. It would run Foreflight and >communicate with a Stratus Two. I've heard the pads tend to >overheat and was thinking about installing a cooling fan behind it >in the panel. Do you have any thoughts on this? What type fan >should I use to avoid RFI, etc? How many cfm? Do you have a >simpler idea, or am I needlessly worrying about the overheating problem? Folks on the List can better sources of information on this than I. I'm surprised about 'heat issues' . . . these things draw about 3-5 watts in operation, the vast majority of which gets turned into heat. Unless there are items with localized heat-dissipation issues (doubtful for a hand-held device), I would not expect there to be any problems for operational heating. However, these things are not designed to RESIDE on a panel of an airplane parked out in the sun. I sure wouldn't leave one in a parked airplane. >The other thing I was looking for was 12v usb port I could hardwire >near my panel (not a cigarette lighter adapter) so the pad would be >charged while in flight. Blue Sea makes usb ports for marine >application that looks good, but didn't know if you had any. That's a popular topic on the List. A number of builders have tried various commercial off the self 12v/USB power adapters with varying degrees of success. Depending on how handy you are with a soldering iron, you could craft an airplane- friendly, 14V to 5VUSB adapter starting with a reasonably robust assembly as a core . . . something like these . . . http://tinyurl.com/ovowqbu http://tinyurl.com/px42t7f . . . mounted in a metal enclosure and fitted with sure-to-work filters and over-load protection. Alternatively, something like this . . . http://tinyurl.com/pbvmbb3 . . . might be just fine in terms of performance and noise . . . you'd just have to try it. >I also read your article on using shielded cable for the LIghtspeed >electronic ignition instead of the coax. The use of epoxy to seal >the wiring seemed like a pain and was wondering if using a tighter >fitting, larger shielded wire with shrink wrapping would be ok. Are >the reasons for not using larger cable expense, flexibility, and weight? Klaus had a cow when I wrote that article . . . seems that coax cable was necessary if the system were going to generate 2" long sparks between coil towers. Going to shielded wire dropped the output to 1.5" sparks. Still about 100x more than needed to make the engine run but I'll have to concede a 'drop in performance'. The original problem with coax was his recommendation for using RG-58 . . . with insulation that drips off the wire when you try to solder it. He has since revised his recommendation to RG-400 coax . . . modern, hi-temp insulation. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Shaun Wilkinson <shaunwilkinson(at)cloud9aviation.net>
Subject: Re: sundry questions
Date: Jul 10, 2014
Excellent Photo On 10 Jul 2014, at 00:38, John Tipton wrote: > > > This is my 4year old grandson, flying P2, with my IPad suction mounted on my C172 > > John > > Sent from my iPad > > ----x--O--x---- > >> On 9 Jul 2014, at 11:40 pm, Tim Andres wrote: >> >> >> I think you'll be unhappy with a panel mounted Ipad, they will heat soak from the sun in a hurry and simply turn off. I use one however and love it, but I stow it out of the sun (and thieves) view when parked and just set it on my legs in flight. >> FWIW >> Tim >> >>> On Jul 9, 2014, at 2:16 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: >>> >>> >>> At 10:07 AM 7/9/2014, you wrote: >>>> BTW, I've read your book. Very nice for a first time builder. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>>> Hope you don't mind a few questions. >>> >>> Not at all . . . but I would like for you to join the AeroElectric-List >>> for any future conversation. It's always a good thing when we share >>> these conversations with the community. >>> >>>> I plan on going with fuses for the majority of the circuit protection as you recommended. When I went to your web site to find fuse blocks and bus bars, I had a hard time navigating through the site. Do you have an online product catalog, or is that something I have to buy? When I clicked on the link the first time, an order form came up. I tried again at a later time and finally made it to the fuse block section, but the pdf descriptions that came up was hardly readable. >>> >>> I don't sell any hardware at present. I have in the >>> past but right now, B&C at http://bandc.biz has the >>> vast majority of my legacy products and merchandise. >>> I'm talking with them about upgrades to products and >>> getting some new items. Time is my tight commodity. >>> I'm contracting for Beech/Cessna/Hawker and there >>> aren't very many gray-beards around to remember how


June 13, 2014 - July 10, 2014

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-mj