AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ms
March 14, 2015 - April 26, 2015
Try "3.5mm 4p" in mouser and digikey
Daniel Hooper
> On Mar 14, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
>
> I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for earphon
e and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way of describing t
his to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and can't come up with one.
This is the socket that's on my smart phone but either the search engine or
I are too dumb to get there. In my travels I've seen the plug described as a
3.5mm TRRS plug, but no sockets for them. Anyone found these or can show me
how to find them?
> Thanks guys.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
>
>
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>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Putney <billp(at)wwpc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
These are called T-R-R-S (tip-ring-ring-sleve) connectors Digikey has them.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ5-43502PM/CP5-43502PM-ND/1956558
Bill
On 3/14/15 9:21, Richard Girard wrote:
> I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for
> earphone and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way
> of describing this to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and
> can't come up with one. This is the socket that's on my smart phone
> but either the search engine or I are too dumb to get there. In my
> travels I've seen the plug described as a 3.5mm TRRS plug, but no
> sockets for them. Anyone found these or can show me how to find them?
> Thanks guys.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
| From: | John Rheney <jwrjrjwrjr(at)gmail.com> |
This?
http://www.showmecables.com/product/3-5mm-Jack-TRRS-Connector-Plastic.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=947&zmam=49733141&zmac=5&zmas=1&zmap=947&gclid=CKiA0_GvqMQCFdccgQoda5EAxw
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Richard Girard
wrote:
> I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for
> earphone and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way of
> describing this to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and can't come
> up with one. This is the socket that's on my smart phone but either the
> search engine or I are too dumb to get there. In my travels I've seen the
> plug described as a 3.5mm TRRS plug, but no sockets for them. Anyone found
> these or can show me how to find them?
> Thanks guys.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 Ammeter Relocation Question |
For $62, a 500A shunt and digital ammeter can be purchased. In the unlikely event
of a shorted battery, the shunt would act like a 500A current limiter and remove
the battery from the system. This is assuming the shunt is hooked up directly
to and at the battery.
> On Mar 14, 2015, at 05:43, user9253 wrote:
>
>
> The Dynon Skyview installation guide shows 3 possible locations for an ammeter
shunt. See page 7-52.
> http://tinyurl.com/Dynon-Install-Guide
> I never thought that a battery ammeter was very useful until reading about this
accident.
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16757524
> A battery ammeter might have helped the pilot realize why the aircraft system
voltage was dropping so fast. He then could have opened the battery contactor
before the engine quit.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439356#439356
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: solar charger |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
> can anyone tell me why a solar panel that is sealed in it's case, won't output
any voltage? dj45
No, but I had a "dual power" calculator that stopped working. It was supposed to
run on its solar cells or its battery. When I examined it, the "solar cell"
was nothing but a piece of colored cardboard with no wires attached to it.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439383#439383
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Has anyone ever measured the current draw of a battery with a shorted cell (with
a second battery and alternator connected)?
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439384#439384
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 Ammeter Relocation Question |
The single most important instrumentation
in the airplane's electrical system is active
notification of low voltage. The bus cannot rise
above 13.0 volts without aid of a functioning
alternator.
If the battery is being sized and maintained to
accomplish battery-only endurance operations with
certainty, then its capacity is a known quantity.
Once the capacity falls below this design goal,
prudent operations call for replacing it.
This happens when the battery has lost about 20%
of its as-installed capacity. This value will be
reached before it begins to show signs of weakness
by either (1) lethargic engine cranking or (2)
rapid decay of the recharge current after the
alternator starts.
If the airplane is not electrically dependent
and no battery-only endurance goals are in place,
then your best indicator of battery condition
will be cranking performance. If it got the engine
started, you're good to fly.
In the well crafted electrical system, ammeters
yield no useful flight-ops information. When the
alternator is running, all loads are, or should
be, known. Hence as long as the low volts lite
is out, all is right with the universe.
If the alternator quits, all endurance loads are
known as well as the battery's ability to grunt
said loads to design goals. Again, ammeters are
cool gages with wiggly pointers . . . but not
useful for flight-ops guidance (or clues as to
battery condition).
Now, if you truly want a -0+ battery ammeter,
you'll need to arrange for the shunt NOT to carry
starter current so that the ammeter sees only
flow to/from the battery. This still doesn't measure
loads in the endurance mode but it will let you
interpret recharge behavior after a start.
Like so . . .
Emacs!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
At 08:45 2015-03-14, you wrote:
>
>The pilot of the the accident airplane emailed to me the following:
> > The magazine article is not correct, I did have a disconnect
> system in place. However the failure occurred so fast (I could
> literally see my volt meter dropping), that I could not trouble
> shoot the problem quickly enough. The primary battery rapidly
> depleted the secondary battery and even overwhelmed the alternator
> output. If I recall correctly, the fuel injectors quit operating at
> around 10.5 volts and that happened in a couple of minutes.
I'd sure like to duplicate that on the bench.
The fact that a battery shorted in the first
place is mystifying . . . what kind of battery
was this. Had it been cap and load checked
recently? Alternators don't get "overwhelmed"
and quit. They will attempt to raise the foreshortened
10v battery up to the normal 14v bus voltage.
They'll run current limited during this time and
may get pretty warm but they don't smoke, roll
over and die.
What was the condition of the alternator after
the event?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
At 17:16 2015-03-14, you wrote:
>
>Has anyone ever measured the current draw of a battery with a
>shorted cell (with a second battery and alternator connected)?
>Joe
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
No way to predict. The fact that a cell shorted
offers questions about the condition of the battery
in the first place. An SVLA battery that's less
than airworthy will suffer swelling plates due to
sulfation. This wouldn't be expected to occur unless
the battery was left in service long after it failed
a load/cap check.
This mechanical stress on plate separators can raise
the risk of shorting. If the battery is sulphated
badly, it wouldn't deliver much current, nor would
it draw spectacular amounts of current in the shorted
cell scenario. The ability of the 'good' battery
to deliver energy into the shorted-cell battery
is similarly influenced by age and service related
degradation.
If these were identical batteries with similar
histories, perhaps neither one would have tested
airworthy.
It would be very interesting to know the pedigree
of the batteries involved and to see a schematic
of the system architecture.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I also asked what type of battery, flooded or AGM, but did not get a reply. Other
than the single email quoted in my previous post, I have not received any
more info from the pilot-builder.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439398#439398
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Judging from the limited information available, I speculate that the aircraft was
wired similar to Z-19. It is hard to come to any conclusions about the cause
of the electrical failure without knowing all of the facts and details about
the type of batteries and their condition and age.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439399#439399
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
| From: | Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Richard
Having been down a similar path recently (however looking for the plug and
not the socket) I came across two different standards of 3.5mm TRRS plugs.
If you do find something that looks like what you need online, make sure
the dimensions are suitable! The longer version (red) is manufactured by
Cliff in the UK, and they do sell to the public. This seems to be used on
many set-top-box media players. The shorter version (black) is more
commonly used in handheld devices, and relatively easy to come by. They are
not mechanically or electrically compatible, with a different order of the
connectors. Even Ground is Sleeve on one and Second Ring on the other!
See attached pictures for comparison.
Thanks
Etienne
[image: Inline images 2][image: Inline images 1]
On 14 March 2015 at 18:21, Richard Girard wrote:
> I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for
> earphone and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way of
> describing this to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and can't come
> up with one. This is the socket that's on my smart phone but either the
> search engine or I are too dumb to get there. In my travels I've seen the
> plug described as a 3.5mm TRRS plug, but no sockets for them. Anyone found
> these or can show me how to find them?
> Thanks guys.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Zenith 601 / Jabiru 3300 re-wire project |
| From: | Roger McCoig <morgana.ram(at)gmail.com> |
Hello Bob,
Thanks for taking time to talk to me yesterday.
Just as a quick review, we are doing a complete re-build of the panel and
wiring. The airplane is Light Sport and will be used daytime VFR. In
addition to the components listed below I am keeping Air Speed, Vertical
Speed and Altimeter steam gauges.
This is an inventory of the original parts:
*Qty* *Part* *Manufacturer* *Number* *Purpose*
1 ATC Fuse Panel Buss (Mexico) 15600-06-20
1 Bat Disconnect Ingram Jabiru FWF 841260 12 volt 4721
1 Voltage Regulator Jabiru FWF R S 51 =93 92 =93 4/1/03
1 ELT Ameri-King Corp 450004
2 Fuel Guages VDO Malaysia 301 220 002
1 10 Breaker Tyco / Electronics W58-XC4C12A-10 Flaps
1 20 Breaker Tyco / Electronics W58-XC4C12A-20 Main Buss
1 1 Breaker Tyco / Electronics W58-XC4C12A-10 GRT EIS
2 5 Breaker Tyco / Electronics W58-XC4C12A-5 Fuel Pump / Radio
1 Toggle Made in China
Flaps
1 Toggle Made in China
Master?
4 Toggle Made in China
1 Ignition Switch ACS Products Company A-510-2
1 Elevator Trim Switch Ray Allen Co RS2
1 Elevator Trim Indicator Ray Allen Co RP2 Needle Indicator
1 Radio VAL COM 760 TSO
1 60 WATT 4 Outlet Strobe Power Supply Nova Electronics XPAK604X-HR
1 Engine Information System Grand Rapids Technology Model 2000
I am adding:
2 Aircraft Grip Tosten Mfg CS-8
1 Relay Deck Tosten Mfg
1 EFIS Grand Rapids Technology Mini
I also want to allow for a transponder sometime in the future.
Thanks,
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
The difference in contact assignments on this plug type is vast, as it has been
used for many purposes, from audio with microphone, to audio with battery charging,
to serial data interface. It's not even consistent among cell phone models
with respect to ground and microphone assignment.
If you're sourcing a patch cable with the same plug at both ends, it makes no difference,
but plug adapter cables with something other than TRRS on one end require
care to ensure compatibility.
See http://bit.ly/1FvOcuj for a long list of TRRS plug applications.
Eric
On Mar 17, 2015, at 5:26 AM, Etienne Phillips wrote:
> Hi Richard
>
> Having been down a similar path recently (however looking for the plug and not
the socket) I came across two different standards of 3.5mm TRRS plugs. If you
do find something that looks like what you need online, make sure the dimensions
are suitable! The longer version (red) is manufactured by Cliff in the UK,
and they do sell to the public. This seems to be used on many set-top-box media
players. The shorter version (black) is more commonly used in handheld devices,
and relatively easy to come by. They are not mechanically or electrically
compatible, with a different order of the connectors. Even Ground is Sleeve
on one and Second Ring on the other!
>
> See attached pictures for comparison.
>
> Thanks
> Etienne
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Off topic, but it's Electric and it flys |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
I get a tech newsletter and thought that this will probably be a disruptive advance
and of interest to aviators.
And it turns out that it was developed in my back yard of University of Calif,
Santa Barbara :-)
Enjoy. http://www.flyability.com/
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439469#439469
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Off topic, but it's Electric and it flys |
Ha! I don't think we'd want to share the skies with that!
If you read the page, it's not really "collision proof". It actually just doesn't
mind colliding with things indoors because it learns the room from them.
I suppose if they applied this to large drones they could send telemetry back
from collisions and eventually (in millions of years) be able to learn where most
common airways are. ;)
Tim
> On Mar 17, 2015, at 10:37 AM, jonlaury wrote:
>
>
> I get a tech newsletter and thought that this will probably be a disruptive advance
and of interest to aviators.
> And it turns out that it was developed in my back yard of University of Calif,
Santa Barbara :-)
>
> Enjoy. http://www.flyability.com/
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439469#439469
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Questions on 912/914 alternators |
Based on some testing accomplished today, I'm
initiating some proof of concept design work
on an after market rectifier regulator configuration
that may increase output power from the PM alternator
by 30-50% and, oh yeah, won't smoke like the legacy
Ducati part.
I'm seeing some conversations on the 'net concerning
an 'alternator stator upgrade or replacement program'.
Is anyone on the List familiar with what drove that
activity? I'm also in the market for a PM rotor and
a stator winding off a Rotax 912. If any knows of
an engine being parted out . . . or one that's presently
not airworthy awaiting overhaul, I'd be pleased to
'rent' the parts for a time.
These would be assembled into a bench-test alternator
without modification. They would be returned in an
unaltered condition after the tests are completed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions on 912/914 alternators |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> 'm seeing some conversations on the 'net concerning
> an 'alternator stator upgrade or replacement program'.
Can you provide a web link?
I assume that the power increase comes from increased efficiency of your new rectifier/regulator
design, not from the PM dynamo. I would be interested in testing
a prototype in my Rotax 912 powered RV-12 E-LSA. Although my rectifier/regulator
has not failed . . . yet, many others have as reported on VansAirforce.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439587#439587
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions on 912/914 alternators |
At 08:13 2015-03-19, you wrote:
>
>
> > 'm seeing some conversations on the 'net concerning
> > an 'alternator stator upgrade or replacement program'.
>
>Can you provide a web link?
>
>I assume that the power increase comes from increased efficiency of
>your new rectifier/regulator design, not from the PM dynamo. I
>would be interested in testing a prototype in my Rotax 912 powered
>RV-12 E-LSA. Although my rectifier/regulator has not failed . . .
>yet, many others have as reported on VansAirforce.
>Joe
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
Yes, improvements in component capabilities
and performance . . . and market forces . . .
have encouraged us to look at R/R technologies
for the full line of PM power conditioners.
We have every expectation of offering a product
with greatly improved reliability. Improved
performance is a most welcome side benefit.
Rotax 912/914 is the largest PM system in
wide usage so I'm intently interested in
getting my hands on parts needed to craft
a test alternator that I can run on the
bench.
Once we have flightworthy POC devices,
we'll be looking for opportunities
to do field testing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | =?utf-8?Q?PC_board_fabrication? |
SSBhbSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIGhhdmluZyBhIFBDIGJvYXJkIGZhYnJpY2F0ZWQuICBJIHJlbWVt
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cD8NCg0KDQpUaGFua3MsDQoNCg0KUm9nZXI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PC board fabrication |
At 13:37 2015-03-19, you wrote:
>I am interested in having a PC board fabricated. I remember that
>someone posted a very inexpensive PC house to do this. I was going
>to keep the info but somehow in the shuffeling of computers I lost
>it. Can someone please help?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Roger
There are several. My personal favorite is experesspcb.com
who offers a proprietary but VERY capable ecb layout software
package for free and quick-turn (3-5 days), mini-board service
for a flat fee. They've been my prototype and production supplier for
over 10 years.
Similar services have been cited here on the list but I'm
not familiar with any of them . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PC board fabrication |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
AeroElectric thread about PC Board House:
http://tinyurl.com/Matronics-Thread
Elecrow in Hong Kong, inexpensive but takes a month
OSH Park, reasonable US company. Easy name to remember
ExpressPCB, expensive but fast service. Easy to use software.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439625#439625
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PC board fabrication |
| From: | Graeme Hart <graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat.com> |
I use oshpark.com for small boards, they charge $5 per square inch and you
get three boards for that. The boards are purple, double sided with solder
mask, silk screen and gold plating.
To do larger boards I have used both dirtypcbs.com and elecrow.com. Check
their sites for pricing but it is around $14 for approximately 10 5cm x 5cm
boards and $25 for approximately 10 10cm x 10cm boards. These boards are
double sided with solder mask, silk screen and lead plated. You can choose
from about 5 different colours.
OSH park are made in USA, the other two are in China.
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 7:37 AM, wrote:
> I am interested in having a PC board fabricated. I remember that
> someone posted a very inexpensive PC house to do this. I was going to keep
> the info but somehow in the shuffeling of computers I lost it. Can someone
> please help?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Roger
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PC board fabrication |
I'll add another vote for OSHPark. I've used them a lot and been very happy
. Only once in perhaps 40-50 orders was there a production error, and they n
otified me by email before the boards even arrived, so I didn't waste time o
r components. Replacements came very quickly.
If you use Eagle for board layout, they'll accept your design file directly.
All other EDA packages can simply export industry-standard Gerber and NC D
rill files and upload them in a ZIP archive.
OSHPark charges $5/square inch for 2-layer and $10/square inch for 4-layer, w
ith free shipping. 1-ounce copper only. Your board has to be pretty big be
fore any other US board fab can compete on price, and they beat many of the C
hinese fabs (and are much faster). Boards typically arrive in about 10-12 d
ays; my most recent order was submitted on 3/10 and it was shipped today.
Eric
> On Mar 19, 2015, at 2:37 PM, wrote:
> I am interested in having a PC board fabricated. I remember that someone p
osted a very inexpensive PC house to do this. I was going to keep the info b
ut somehow in the shuffeling of computers I lost it. Can someone please hel
p?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re:_AeroElectric-List:_PC_board_fabrication? |
DQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpGcm9tOiBHcmFlbWUgSGFydA0KU2VudDog4oCOVGh1cnNkYXnigI4sIOKA
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b20gZm9yIHNtYWxsIGJvYXJkcywgdGhleSBjaGFyZ2UgJDUgcGVyIHNxdWFyZSBpbmNoIGFuZCB5
b3UgZ2V0IHRocmVlIGJvYXJkcyBmb3IgdGhhdC4gIFRoZSBib2FyZHMgYXJlIHB1cnBsZSwgZG91
YmxlIHNpZGVkIHdpdGggc29sZGVyIG1hc2ssIHNpbGsgc2NyZWVuIGFuZCBnb2xkIHBsYXRpbmcu
DQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpJIG5lZ2xlY3RlZCB0byBhc2ssIHdoaWNoIHNvZnR3YXJlIGlzIHJlY29t
bWVuZGVkPw0KDQoNCg0KUm9nZXI
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PC board fabrication |
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
CadSoft EAGLE is very popular among the Open Source Hardware and "maker" com
munity, but I found the learning curve too steep for my limited patience; it
's a very complex program. EAGLE's free hobbyist license allows 10x16 cm bo
ards with up to six signal layers. http://bit.ly/1bj6Dr5
I switched to DipTrace and have never looked back. I found it much more int
uitive to learn. It's also a commercial software package, but their free "n
on-profit" license allows two-signal-layer boards (unlimited plane layers), u
p to 500 pins and no limits on board dimensions. There's a nice set of vide
os on the website explaining how it works and a useful PDF tutorial document
. http://bit.ly/1DDr26l
There are many others; I'm sure someone will chime in with more options.
Eric
> On Mar 19, 2015, at 7:57 PM, wrote:
>
> From: Graeme Hart
> Sent: Thursday March 19 2015 4:15 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
> I use oshpark.com for small boards, they charge $5 per square inch and you
get three boards for that. The boards are purple, double sided with solder
mask, silk screen and gold plating.
>
> I neglected to ask, which software is recommended?
>
> Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re:_AeroElectric-List:_PC_board_fabrication? |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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PC board fabrication |
| From: | Graeme Hart <graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat.com> |
I use Eagle, it is free and very commonly used so if adapting designs from
others is part of what you are doing then it is great.
The negative with Eagle is that it does not work like any other Windows app
and requires considerable time to learn. One example of this is if you
want to delete something you click delete and then click the object you
want to delete, this is the opposite of how most other apps work.
The free version will do a two layer board up to 8cm x 5cm (just under 3
inches x 2 inches) so OK for most things especially if you are using SMD
components.
On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 7:08 AM, wrote:
>
>
> I switched to DipTrace and have never looked back. I found it much more
> intuitive to learn. It's also a commercial software package, but their
> free "non-profit" license allows two-signal-layer boards (unlimited plane
> layers), up to 500 pins and no limits on board dimensions. There's a nice
> set of videos on the website explaining how it works and a useful PDF
> tutorial document. http://bit.ly/1DDr26l
>
> Thanks for the info. it is much appreciated.
>
> Roger
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Charging failure - suggestions welcome |
Dear All,
While flying today the low volts flasher came on - both volt meters
confirmed battery voltage only, and ammeter (measuring current delivered
by the alternator) showed zero. No big deal, we returned to the airport
and landed.
Predictably I did not have the time to investigate much, but there was
no evidence of a shredded/broken alternator belt - although I couldn't
verify it was definitely OK. I have now downloaded the EFIS data. It
shows the measured voltage dropped from the steady state 14.6v to 14v
over 21 seconds, with no change in current output, and then to 12.8v in
6 seconds with the current output dropping to zero.
Although I haven't suffered a charging failure before I am tempted to
say a broken belt would have lead a more rapid volts drop, so am
thinking that its either an internal alternator or voltage regulator
failure.
Can anyone with more experience suggest how I can determine if the
alternator or (external) voltage regulator has failed. I do not have a
spare of either to swap in. All suggestions gratefully accepted.
Regards, Peter
RV-6A Lyc O-320
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging failure - suggestions welcome |
Assuming there is no mechanical damage, broken belt etc., the field circuit breaker
isn't tripped, the next thing is look for is a broken "B" lead (large wire)
or field wire. It seems fairly common for these to break at the alternator.
Next thing then is figure out which wire is the field and does it have voltage
on it while the engine is running. If you have voltage on the field terminal
of the alternator but only battery voltage (~12 V), then the alternator is not
working. If there is no field voltage then work the other way back to the regulator.
Good luck
Tim
> On Mar 22, 2015, at 3:00 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> While flying today the low volts flasher came on - both volt meters confirmed
battery voltage only, and ammeter (measuring current delivered by the alternator)
showed zero. No big deal, we returned to the airport and landed.
>
> Predictably I did not have the time to investigate much, but there was no evidence
of a shredded/broken alternator belt - although I couldn't verify it was
definitely OK. I have now downloaded the EFIS data. It shows the measured voltage
dropped from the steady state 14.6v to 14v over 21 seconds, with no change
in current output, and then to 12.8v in 6 seconds with the current output dropping
to zero.
>
> Although I haven't suffered a charging failure before I am tempted to say a broken
belt would have lead a more rapid volts drop, so am thinking that its either
an internal alternator or voltage regulator failure.
>
> Can anyone with more experience suggest how I can determine if the alternator
or (external) voltage regulator has failed. I do not have a spare of either to
swap in. All suggestions gratefully accepted.
>
> Regards, Peter
> RV-6A Lyc O-320
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Charging failure - suggestions welcome |
Barring an obvious broken wire, I generally find corrosion in a connection
or high resistance in a switch or circuit breaker. The easiest check is to
check the voltage while the system is operating. Check the voltage on each
side of every connection while the system is working hard. Any drop at all
across a CB, switch, or other connection is a bad thing! Those buggers do
wear out and they do develop hard to measure resistance. Need to be
checked while under load..
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/22/2015 5:58:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Andres
Assuming there is no mechanical damage, broken belt etc., the field
circuit breaker isn't tripped, the next thing is look for is a broken "B" lead
(large wire) or field wire. It seems fairly common for these to break at the
alternator. Next thing then is figure out which wire is the field and does
it have voltage on it while the engine is running. If you have voltage on
the field terminal of the alternator but only battery voltage (~12 V), then
the alternator is not working. If there is no field voltage then work the
other way back to the regulator.
Good luck
Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging failure - suggestions welcome |
Hi Peter,
Others have mentioned the usual types of failures; broken field wire,
loose/dirty field connector, bad voltage regulator, etc.
One of the weirdest charging failures happened to me. . .
After a normal flight and visit, I fired up to return home and the charging
circuit appeared dead. I could watch the volt meter slowly go to bed with
the radios, etc. turned on. I was stuck in the boonies too. A dirt strip
in a vineyard and no one around . .
After testing the limited things I could and not finding the fault, I got
the battery fully charged with the help of a friend and made the short
flight home with 95% of the electrical bus shut down.
When I was home and had access to voltmeters, tools, etc. I chased the down
the fault after inventing new curse words, etc. and skinned hands.
Turned out the main bus CB (original factory unit in my '65 185) had opened
up without popping the indicator button. I was dumb-founded by that as it
was about the last thing I checked.
Thus, the charging system was fine doing its job, but, the charging current
could not get to the bus nor the battery.
Check the simple, easy things first and then move on to the un-obvious
subjects. . . .
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 3:00 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Charging failure - suggestions welcome
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> While flying today the low volts flasher came on - both volt meters
> confirmed battery voltage only, and ammeter (measuring current delivered
> by the alternator) showed zero. No big deal, we returned to the airport
> and landed.
>
> Predictably I did not have the time to investigate much, but there was no
> evidence of a shredded/broken alternator belt - although I couldn't verify
> it was definitely OK. I have now downloaded the EFIS data. It shows the
> measured voltage dropped from the steady state 14.6v to 14v over 21
> seconds, with no change in current output, and then to 12.8v in 6 seconds
> with the current output dropping to zero.
>
> Although I haven't suffered a charging failure before I am tempted to say
> a broken belt would have lead a more rapid volts drop, so am thinking that
> its either an internal alternator or voltage regulator failure.
>
> Can anyone with more experience suggest how I can determine if the
> alternator or (external) voltage regulator has failed. I do not have a
> spare of either to swap in. All suggestions gratefully accepted.
>
> Regards, Peter
> RV-6A Lyc O-320
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Charging failure - suggestions welcome |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Bob Nuckolls' book (Revision 12A) offers good advice on troubleshooting an alternator
& regulator. See Appendix Z note 8.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439750#439750
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Charging failure - suggestions welcome |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternator_Testing.pdf
Note that meter is set on AMPS, not volts.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439752#439752
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging failure - suggestions welcome |
Hi Joe,
Mine is dual range via push button. . .amps & volts.
D
______________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 8:05 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charging failure - suggestions welcome
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternator_Testing.pdf
> Note that meter is set on AMPS, not volts.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439752#439752
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Busy contacts are happy contacts |
>Turned out the main bus CB (original factory unit in my '65 185) had
>opened up without popping the indicator button. I was dumb-founded
>by that as it was about the last thing I checked.
MAIN BUS BREAKER? What's that?
I've experienced two instances of old switches 'going open'
with age. Contact corrosion is always 'thicker' than the
surface from which the corrosion is developed. The two
instances I personally encountered were on low current,
press-to-test switches that were not routinely operated . . .
and when they were operated, their 'high current' (silver
cad) contacts did not benefit from the naturally occurring
arc that has a cleansing effect on thin films of naturally
occurring corrosion.
Do you still have the old breaker? I'd love to have it
for an autopsy.
The first time I saw the effect, a tech had already pulled the
switch and replaced it. I cabbaged onto the carcass and
discovered that it was a perfectly good but seldom exercised
switch loaded with too little current. A constant current power
supply set for 10A was 'shorted' with the suspect switch
and wig-waged a few dozen times. Contact resistance fell to
catalog limits and the switch was probably good-to-go for
another 10-15 years.
The second time I saw it, I was able to advise the tech
and suggest an experiment before we pulled the switch
from the panel (and gigged the customer $300). I hooked
a CC power supply across the open contacts and wiggled
the dead-short switch a few dozen times. Again, contact
resistance fell to milliohms and the switch was 'refurbished
in situ'.
Years ago I recall advising techs who attended my
seminars that one of the best things they could do
for an aging breaker panel was to exercise the all breakers,
under load if practical, every time the airplane showed
up for service. An exercised contact is a happy contact.
Unfortunately, breakers in that era of Cessnas were
push-to-reset only. To 'clean' those switches, the techs
were advised to clip-lead a 30A load resistor to the downstream
side of the breaker . . . force it open a couple of times.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and OV Protection |
Kit (14v)
| From: | Roger McCoig <morgana.ram(at)gmail.com> |
I am identifying parts from the AeroElectric Connections Figure Z-16
drawing for Re-Wiring project.
Is the AEC900-101 listed on that drawing available?
Also I have the original Voltage Regulator from the Jabiru Firewall
Forward Kit.
Is PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v), Item 505-1, listed on B & C
Speciality Productions suitable for this regulator?
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and OV Protection |
Kit (14v)
| From: | Roger McCoig <morgana.ram(at)gmail.com> |
I am identifying parts from the AeroElectric Connections Figure Z-16
drawing for Re-Wiring project.
Is the AEC900-101 listed on that drawing available?
Also I have the original Voltage Regulator from the Jabiru Firewall
Forward Kit.
Is PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v), Item 505-1, listed on B & C
Speciality Productions suitable for this regulator?
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com> |
I would like some confirmation that my rational for choosing between Z12
(60 & 20 amp alternators)and Z13-8 (60 and 20 amp alternators) is rational.
I am building a Vans RV-10. Based on my current projections, normal
continuous load will range between 20 and 35 amps. Low being day VFR
and high when landing at night. My maximum instantaneous load is 63
amps. This would be if every electrical motor was running, every radio
was transmitting, every light was on, etc. A very unlikely possibility
but a value that nice to have. My endurance bus load is 12 amps with a
maximum instantaneous load of 21 amps. All on a 14 volt system.
I will be using an Odyssey PC925 battery and per their applications
manual @25C
(<http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-AM-001_0406.pdf> page
7) @25C the time to 10.02 volts, that I derated to 80% is:
45 min 22.5 amps
1 hr 17.5 amps
2 hr 9.5 amps
3 hr 6.6 amps
4 hr 5.1 amps
If I were to use a single alternator single battery electrical design
with an endurance buss, in an alternator out scenario, running off the
e-bus I would have over an hour of flight time to land before I run out
of electrical power. Not that bad a scenario.
Z13-8 adds the SD8 alternator and at my projected cruse or 2,300 to
2,400 rpm (the alternator would spin at 3,000 rpm) it produces 6.8
amps. My battery would need to make up the additional 5.2 amps
(12-6.8). This gives almost 4 hours of endurance. Easily 3 hours with
electrical reserve for the additional electrical load when landing.
Z12 adds a 20 amp alternator (B&C) or 30 amps (plane power). I could
not find specific output data for either alternator. B&C says 20 amps
at 3,500 rpm vs my 3,000 rpm cruse. All plane power says is 30 amps at
cruse for their 14 volt model not their 13.6 volt model. Since my
e-buss load is only 12 amps I could run on the e-bus until my fuel runs
out.
I am finding very little downside to adding the 20/30 amp backup
alternator. It does add about 2 pounds. The cost difference is very
little $200 at the most.
I am currently leaning towards Z12, but I wanted some feedback to
confirm that my evaluation is sound.
Larry Rosen
RV-10 back to building
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and |
OV Protection Kit (14v)
At 13:12 2015-03-23, you wrote:
>I am identifying parts from the AeroElectric
>Connections Figure Z-16 drawing for Re-Wiring project.
>
>Is the AEC900-101 listed on that drawing available?
Yes . . . sort of . . .
>Also I have the original Voltage Regulator from
>the Jabiru Firewall Forward Kit.
>
>Is PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v),
>Item 505-1, listed on B & C Speciality Productions suitable for this regulator?
Yes, the crowbar ov module and lv warning are being
combined into a single device. But yes, the components
needed to complete that suite of tasks will be available
from B&C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and |
OV Protection Kit (14v)
| From: | Roger McCoig <morgana.ram(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Bob.
I appreciate the info. I will use the original wiring diagram from Jabiru
for the regulator and ask B&C to let me know when the new parts are
available.
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 7:31 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 13:12 2015-03-23, you wrote:
>
>> I am identifying parts from the AeroElectric Connections Figure Z-16
>> drawing for Re-Wiring project.
>>
>> Is the AEC900-101 listed on that drawing available?
>>
>
> Yes . . . sort of . . .
>
>
> Also I have the original Voltage Regulator from the=C3=82 Jabiru Firewa
ll
>> Forward Kit.
>>
>> Is PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v), Item 505-1, listed on B & C
>> Speciality Productions suitable for this regulator?
>>
>
> Yes, the crowbar ov module and lv warning are being
> combined into a single device. But yes, the components
> needed to complete that suite of tasks will be available
> from B&C.
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 |
At 14:17 2015-03-23, you wrote:
I would like some confirmation that my rational for choosing between
Z12 (60 & 20 amp alternators)and Z13-8 (60 and 20 amp alternators) is rational.
I am building a Vans RV-10. Based on my current projections, normal
continuous load will range between 20 and 35 amps. Low being day VFR
and high when landing at night. My maximum instantaneous load is 63
amps. This would be if every electrical motor was running, every
radio was transmitting, every light was on, etc. A very unlikely
possibility but a value that nice to have. My endurance bus load is
12 amps with a maximum instantaneous load of 21 amps. All on a 14 volt system.
Thats a pretty broad brush load analysis. Intermittent
loads MAY total a lot of amps but their ENERGY requirements
are generally low and not part of your endurance calculation.
I will be using an Odyssey PC925 battery and per their applications
manual @25C
(<http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-AM-001_0406.pdf>
page 7) @25C the time to 10.02 volts, that I derated to 80% is:
45 min 22.5 amps
1 hr 17.5 amps
2 hr 9.5 amps
3 hr 6.6 amps
4 hr 5.1 amps
If I were to use a single alternator single battery electrical design
with an endurance buss, in an alternator out scenario, running off
the e-bus I would have over an hour of flight time to land before I
run out of electrical power. Not that bad a scenario.
Is your e-bus load that high? Nor normal running
loads are not endurance loads. Figure out just what
electro-whizzies are necessary and useful for continued
flight at cruise. The ENDURANCE mode minimizes loads
consistent with capable navigation and aviation.
Z13-8 adds the SD8 alternator and at my projected cruse or 2,300 to
2,400 rpm (the alternator would spin at 3,000 rpm) it produces 6.8
amps. My battery would need to make up the additional 5.2 amps
(12-6.8). This gives almost 4 hours of endurance. Easily 3 hours
with electrical reserve for the additional electrical load when landing.
Ideally, your TOTAL endurance loads would be carried
by the 8A s/b alternator thus saving the battery's
stored energy for descent and approach to landing.
Z12 adds a 20 amp alternator (B&C) or 30 amps (plane power). I could
not find specific output data for either alternator. B&C says 20
amps at 3,500 rpm vs my 3,000 rpm cruse. All plane power says is 30
amps at cruse for their 14 volt model not their 13.6 volt
model. Since my e-buss load is only 12 amps I could run on the e-bus
until my fuel runs out.
The Endurance Mode . . . doesn't mean keeping
the coffee pot hot and the stereo running.
It means supporting the minimalist load of
electro-whizzies that will carry you to
airport in sight.
At that time, will ALL of the battery's contents
held in reserve, you can come down final with
klieg lights and coupled autopilot approach
while carrying on conversation with ATC . . . using
BATTERY + S?B alternator to support the load for
the few minutes needed to comfortably terminate
the flight.
Unless you have an electrically dependent engine
with a voracious appetite for Joules, you should
be able to cruise handily on 8A.
I am finding very little downside to adding the 20/30 amp backup
alternator. It does add about 2 pounds. The cost difference is very
little $200 at the most.
I am currently leaning towards Z12, but I wanted some feedback to
confirm that my evaluation is sound.
The downside is mostly dollars. Further, know
that in the not too distant future, the SD-8
is likely to be 'upgraded' . . . don't know
exactly how much but the increase will be
significant.
Get this form from my website
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf
One page for each bus. One equipment item
per line. Fill in steady state operating
for each device categorized by flight
condition. The goal is to get the MAIN ALT
DEAD condition down to 8A or less load.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Choosing the size of the backup alternator is a matter of personal preference.
There is no right or wrong answer. My preference is to keep weight down. If
a PC680 will crank your engine, then how about installing that instead of the
PC925, along with the larger backup alternator?
There was a discussion about batteries for the RV-10 on VansAirforce:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=76315
and on the Matronics AeroElectric List:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3&topicdays=0&start=2250
and
http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3&topicdays=0&start=2175
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439824#439824
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 |
At 08:43 2015-03-24, you wrote:
>
>Choosing the size of the backup alternator is a matter of personal
>preference. There is no right or wrong answer.
But I think there is an 'elegant' answer . . . based
on design goals and numbers to guide and validate
the final decision.
I missed the 925 selection. THAT IS a beefy battery.
The rough numbers offered suggested that design
goals call for the battery to carry a lot more
loads than I would have expected.
Hence, my suggestion that he back up and sort the
numbers against anticipated flight configurations.
For it is those numbers that show the adequacy of
alternators and batteries being considered.
I'd bet that the stock SD-8 and a PC-680 would get
the job done . . . but that's my perception of 'the
job' which may differ markedly from his. Until
we have the numbers, we're all blow'n smoke.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 |
I have gone through a complete analysis of every electric component and
looked at the loads for different flight configurations. For simplicity
I only showed a range for my normal loads and what I had for an
endurance mode. I was looking for a review of my analysis and everyone
has helped me with that.
The endurance design I have is a 'keep the coffee pot warm' design and
not a 'safe for flight' design. My struggle is wanting to make the
alternator out situation a 'non event' with all or most of the
conveniences I will have in the plane. Making the endurance mode a
'safe for flight' mode would drastically cut that loads.
Designing for 'non-event' vs 'safe for flight' is drastically
different. I will need to go back and determine what my design goal is.
Larry
On 3/24/2015 5:53 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> At 08:43 2015-03-24, you wrote:
>>
>> Choosing the size of the backup alternator is a matter of personal
>> preference. There is no right or wrong answer.
>
> But I think there is an 'elegant' answer . . . based
> on design goals and numbers to guide and validate
> the final decision.
>
> I missed the 925 selection. THAT IS a beefy battery.
> The rough numbers offered suggested that design
> goals call for the battery to carry a lot more
> loads than I would have expected.
>
> Hence, my suggestion that he back up and sort the
> numbers against anticipated flight configurations.
> For it is those numbers that show the adequacy of
> alternators and batteries being considered.
>
> I'd bet that the stock SD-8 and a PC-680 would get
> the job done . . . but that's my perception of 'the
> job' which may differ markedly from his. Until
> we have the numbers, we're all blow'n smoke.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Happy Birthday, Bob- |
| From: | GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com> |
I hope it's a great one!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 |
At 19:36 2015-03-24, you wrote:
I have gone through a complete analysis of every electric component
and looked at the loads for different flight configurations. For
simplicity I only showed a range for my normal loads and what I had
for an endurance mode. I was looking for a review of my analysis and
everyone has helped me with that.
The endurance design I have is a 'keep the coffee pot warm' design
and not a 'safe for flight' design. My struggle is wanting to make
the alternator out situation a 'non event' with all or most of the
conveniences I will have in the plane. Making the endurance mode a
'safe for flight' mode would drastically cut that loads.
Designing for 'non-event' vs 'safe for flight' is drastically
different. I will need to go back and determine what my design goal is.
Good for you my friend . . . and please
don't feel that any one else's goals
SHOULD be adopted by yourself based on
their 'cultural weight'. Your decision
should be aided by knowledge of the
options re-enforced by an understanding
of their performance.
In the final analysis, what ever goes
into your airplane should be UNDERSTOOD
and architectured such that no single failure
will be any cause for concern beyond,
"Oh fooey . . . is that thing broke . . .
again?"
The elegant solution to your design goals
will offer the lightest weight and lowest
cost of ownership consistent with a benign
FMEA. Within that framework, it matters
to nobody but yourself what parts go into
the design. To the extent that we may assist
in sorting out bits and pieces, we are
at your service.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- |
At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote:
>I hope it's a great one!
>
Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin
and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm
picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns
out that the cost of freighting the books is more
than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and
I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on
an adventure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <rd2(at)dejazzd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- |
Happy BD from me too, Bob....and many more.
Safe travel.
Rumen
---- "Robert L. Nuckolls wrote:
============
At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote:
>I hope it's a great one!
>
Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin
and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm
picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns
out that the cost of freighting the books is more
than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and
I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on
an adventure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Happy Birthday Bob!!
Have a safe and fun trip to D & back.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote:
> I hope it's a great one!
>
Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin
and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm
picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns
out that the cost of freighting the books is more
than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and
I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on
an adventure.
Bob . . .
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 |
Larry,
Have you considered what it would be like to experience an alternator failu
re in flight?(or course you have - but follow me down this rabbit hole)
There is lots of talk about having enough electrons in reserve to continue
the flight for
a "long time" or until fuel is exhausted.=C2- But would most of us actual
ly do that?
If I imagine myself in the cockpit of an airplane in flight and experiencin
g an electricalproblem, I want to know EXACTLY what's failed, RIGHT NOW!=C2
- That may not be easyto determine from the left seat.
I'm gonna land at the first "reasonable" airport to determine exactly what'
s
wrong - NOT fly on for another hour or two, not knowing what's happening un
derthe hood.
There are all kinds of possible failure modes: did the belt break?, did a w
ire break?,
is that broken wire arcing against the airframe?, Is that arcing near a fue
l line?, is
the regulator on fire?, (did I bring extra toilet paper?) etc, etc.=C2- T
hese questions would
be running thru my mind and give me a high sphincter-factor all the way to
touchdown.
We absolutely need to have some reserve built into the system.But how much
reserve is an interesting question because it involves so many factors.Conc
erns about safety, personal comfort level, engineering, etc.=C2- I think
a reserve of "hours" is probably overkill and would probably not ever be us
ed by prudent pilots due to the reasons cited above.=C2- And, of course,
mere minutes of reserve would notbe smart either.
You might give this idea some thought before deciding on a giant battery th
at
could "keep the coffee pot warm" for a couple of hours.
In a nutshell here are some ideas I use to decide on electrical energy rese
rvesfor battery-only operations:
1. Based upon my airplane's cruise speed & flight planning, I never
plan to be more than 15-20 minutes from a "reasonable*" airport. (in my RV-
7that's probably about 40-50 miles)
2. Add 10 minutes just in case I have to shoot an approach.=C2- Of course
, we'rehoping for VFR at the "reasonable" airport - but planning for worst
case.
3. So that's about 30 minutes.=C2- Now double it, just 'cuz.=C2-
So my number is 60 minutes.
It turns out that my actual number for my RV-7 with dual batteries (PC-680s
), single
alternator system will actually be better than that. (Reserve power is only
one factorin my design decision for having 2 batts.=C2- With 2 batts I g
et things like brown-out
protection on start-up, auto fail-over so EFIS does not re-boot in flight,
reserve
starting energy in case I flood the engine, etc.)
Food for thought, your mileage may vary, non-attorney spokesperson.
Thanks for listening,
-Jeff
*reasonable airport is one w/ a good runway, near a town with an auto parts
store.
On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 8:12 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
ls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
At 19:36 2015-03-24, you wrote:
I have gone through a complete analysis of every electric component
and looked at the loads for different flight configurations.=C2- For
simplicity I only showed a range for my normal loads and what I had
for an endurance mode.=C2- I was looking for a review of my analysis and
everyone has helped me with that.
=C2- The endurance design I have is a 'keep the coffee pot warm' design
and not a 'safe for flight' design.=C2- My struggle is wanting to make
the alternator out situation a 'non event' with all or most of the
conveniences I will have in the plane.=C2- Making the endurance mode a
'safe for flight' mode would drastically cut that loads.
Designing for 'non-event' vs 'safe for flight' is drastically
different.=C2- I will need to go back and determine what my design goal i
s.
=C2- Good for you my friend . . . and please
=C2- don't feel that any one else's goals
=C2- SHOULD be adopted by yourself based on
=C2- their 'cultural weight'. Your decision
=C2- should be aided by knowledge of the
=C2- options re-enforced by an understanding
=C2- of their performance.
=C2- In the final analysis, what ever goes
=C2- into your airplane should be UNDERSTOOD
=C2- and architectured such that no single failure
=C2- will be any cause for concern beyond,
=C2- "Oh fooey . . . is that thing broke . . .
=C2- again?"
=C2- The elegant solution to your design goals
=C2- will offer the lightest weight and lowest
=C2- cost of ownership consistent with a benign
=C2- FMEA.=C2- Within that framework, it matters
=C2- to nobody but yourself what parts go into
=C2- the design. To the extent that we may assist
=C2- in sorting out bits and pieces, we are
=C2- at your service.
=C2- Bob . . .
-
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- |
Roger That!
Bob, best birthday wishes.=C2- Your road trip sounds like fun.
Many thanks to you for your excellent work helping the experimental communi
ty.
It is truly appreciated.
-Jeff
On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 9:16 AM, Robert Borger
wrote:
Happy Birthday Bob!! =C2-
Have a safe and fun trip to D & back.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914,=C2-Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane,=C2-Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX =C2-76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelec
tric.com> wrote:
At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote:
I hope it's a greatone!
=C2-Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin
=C2-and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm
=C2-picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns
=C2-out that the cost of freighting the books is more
=C2-than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and
=C2-I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on
=C2-an adventure.
=C2- Bob . . .
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" class="">ht
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
class="">http://forums.matronics.com
class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 |
At 12:00 2015-03-25, you wrote:
Larry,
Have you considered what it would be like to experience an alternator
failure in flight?
(of course you have - but follow me down this rabbit hole)
There is lots of talk about having enough electrons in reserve to
continue the flight for
a "long time" or until fuel is exhausted. But would most of us
actually do that?
Just because you CAN does not mean that you
always WILL. Further, it depends on your
understanding and confidence in the options
at the time a failure first manifests.
In a nutshell here are some ideas I use to decide on electrical energy reserves
for battery-only operations:
1. Based upon my airplane's cruise speed & flight planning, I never
plan to be more than 15-20 minutes from a "reasonable*" airport. (in my RV-7
that's probably about 40-50 miles)
Dr. Dee and I are fond of trips to places
like Santa Fe, Flagstaff, Laramie, etc.
Nice places to go with few 'reasonable' airports
along the way . . . even those which are
friendly to my airplane may not have tools and
logistical support for a timely repair.
2. Add 10 minutes just in case I have to shoot an approach. Of course, we're
hoping for VFR at the "reasonable" airport - but planning for worst case.
3. So that's about 30 minutes. Now double it, just 'cuz.
So my number is 60 minutes.
It turns out that my actual number for my RV-7 with dual batteries
(PC-680s), single
alternator system will actually be better than that. (Reserve power
is only one factor
in my design decision for having 2 batts. With 2 batts I get things
like brown-out
protection on start-up, auto fail-over so EFIS does not re-boot in
flight, reserve
starting energy in case I flood the engine, etc.)
Food for thought, your mileage may vary, non-attorney spokesperson.
Thanks for listening,
You have re-enforced the point I made yesterday
about having NUMBERS that add protein to the
constellation of interesting flavors that make
up our personal air travel 'stew'.
In the TC aircraft world, we publish tables
of hard numbers for validated performance with
limits along with holy-watered "emergency procedures".
Like the craftsman who's only tool is a hammer,
the anointed in charge of writing POH
pages striped with red hash marks are not allowed
and in some cases incapable of writing
procedures that are modified 'on the fly'
while airborne or 'improved upon' with modifications
to equipment lists while on the ground.
For these folks, every failure event must be treated
as an emergency. "LAND WHEN PRACTICAL" is a
common phrase in the heavy-iron POH.
I've not powered up a panel mounted VOR or
GPS in decades. My dual hand-held gps receivers
supplemented with a hand-held COM would get
me any place I needed to go with the master
switch OFF.
Were our ol' J3 long-legged enough to be
a travel machine, the recipe for my 'stew'
would not change whether I was headed for
Santa Fe or out for a $100 hamburger.
I once encountered a salesman at Beech who
was recounting his experience with a pilot
who just departed in a brand new A36.
He said he spent a couple hours capped off
with a $400 hamburger at Hutch . . . showing
the new owner how all the neat stuff worked.
I asked if he demonstrated how to operate
the airplane in the "J-3 Mode".
"Say what?"
"Yeah, power everything off and get home."
"Why would I want to do that? He just paid
close to a $million$ for this machine, why
would I even suggest that there was value
knowing such things?"
Why indeed. The red-striped pages have it
all covered. A half dozen approval signatures
on the page attest to that assertion. I
didn't pursue the conversation further,
I needed to work with these guys.
In particular, POH authors would be aghast at
any suggestion for powering down the whole
airplane with continued flight to friendly facilities
using only tools in your flight bag.
Your example, and mine, are validations of
my assertion that the OBAM aircraft and
pilot are not bounded by the red-bordered
pages. They are also encouraged to ignore
'cultural common knowledge' about what
constitutes tense moments in an airplane.
I can't watch most video productions on
aviation past the first couple of times
the script writers get it totally wrong.
The vast majority of problems manifest as
a failure to perform. The thing simply
quits . . . whether by internal failure
or external when a wire comes unhooked.
Certain manifestations encourage us to
extra-ordinary action: Bad smells, wildly
fluctuating voltages . . . while very rare,
those are the things that say, "Power it all
down and get out the flight bag tools . . .
and yes, land as soon as practical."
The properly maintained battery will
always get the engine started. It's not
going to short. If an RG, it's not going
to spout hot-acid even when over charged . . .
and your ov protection system should stall
that off.
So once you have one (or in your case two)
RELIABLE batteries on board plus robust
engine driven power source(s), it's not
unreasonable to PLAN for extended flight
after the failure is detected. For the
pilot with your particular mix of flight
profiles, the e-bus and stand-by alternator
are redundant. For my mix of flight
profiles (always in rented airplanes), I
am not terribly weird for considering the
bulk of the ship's electrical system redundant.
If I can do it in a J3 . . . I can do it in an A36.
If electrical systems were a one size fits
all proposition, then the 'Connection could
be reduced to a couple dozen pages with
one Z-figure . . . and perhaps even an
Appendix E where the pages have red hash-
marks around the edges.
Cookie cutters are for cookies . . . not
The best performing airplanes in the world.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com> |
I need some help from the experts. Digi-key has over 13,000 different
power relays over 2 amps, and selecting one, for a novice like me, is a
daunting task.
The relay is for the e-bus battery feed on a 14 volt system. The load
is currently 12 amps, but I have been challenged to better define my
electrical design objects and possibly reduce the load down to 8 amps.
I don't think that will change the relay selection if I were to use a
design of 5-20 amps.
I selected TE Connectivity 1432793-1 Automotive relay SPDT 30A 12V. Here
is the link
<http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1432793-1/PB1773-ND/1236843>
It is non latching with a diode across the coil. Some of the specs,
however, have me confused.
The Coil voltage is 12VDC but the Switching voltage is 14 VDC - Nom. Is
this an issue?
Also the Turn On Voltage (Max) is 7.8 VDC and Turn Off Voltage (Min) 1.2
Volts. Does this mean that the coil requires 7.8 volts to latch and it
will un-latch if voltage drops below 1.2 volts?
I see that most of the automotive relays have high ohm resistors across
the coil, or nothing across the coil. When would you select a resistor,
diode or nothing?
I have another need for a relay in my airplane. My EFIS remote
annunciation mute requires a contact to be close via 2 terminals via a
momentary switch. The vendor does not specify a current requirement for
the switch, and when I contacted them they said any switch would work is
is a fraction of an amp. I would mute the EFIS with one of the buttons
on my control stick, however my control stick only has a common ground,
so all switches close to ground. This would not work for the remote mute.
Is there any reason why a relay wouldn't work?
Would the relay above work? It probably is not the best choice, but it
is only $4 and it would make for common spare parts, so if it would work
it could be my 'best' choice.
Larry
RV-10 Builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
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PT09PT09PT09CgoKCg=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
And you can pick up that relay or this one:
http://www.bandc.biz/spdtsealedrelay12v40a.aspx
at any NAPA store, they're pretty common.
But there must be a better way to control the EFIS, using a relay for that f
unction doesn't seem very elegant. What control stick is it?
Tim
> On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:44 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote:
>
> I have similar installed in my 6A. That relay will work for both applicat
ions. Be careful about the relay activation circuit-ground the correct side
.
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Larry Rosen
> Date:03/27/2015 09:06 (GMT-07:00)
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Relays
>
>
> I need some help from the experts. Digi-key has over 13,000 different
> power relays over 2 amps, and selecting one, for a novice like me, is a
> daunting task.
>
> The relay is for the e-bus battery feed on a 14 volt system. The load
> is currently 12 amps, but I have been challenged to better define my
> electrical design objects and possibly reduce the load down to 8 amps.
> I don't think that will change the relay selection if I were to use a
> design of 5-20 amps.
>
> I selected TE Connectivity 1432793-1 Automotive relay SPDT 30A 12V. Here
> is the link
> <http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1432793-1/PB1773-ND/1236843>
>
> It is non latching with a diode across the coil. Some of the specs,
> however, have me confused.
> The Coil voltage is 12VDC but the Switching voltage is 14 VDC - Nom. Is
> this an issue?
> Also the Turn On Voltage (Max) is 7.8 VDC and Turn Off Voltage (Min) 1.2
> Volts. Does this mean that the coil requires 7.8 volts to latch and it
> will un-latch if voltage drops below 1.2 volts?
>
> I see that most of the automotive relays have high ohm resistors across
> the coil, or nothing across the coil. When would you select a resistor,
> diode or nothing?
>
> I have another need for a relay in my airplane. My EFIS remote
> annunciation mute requires a contact to be close via 2 terminals via a
> momentary switch. The vendor does not specify a current requirement for
> the switch, and when I contacted them they said any switch would work is
> is a fraction of an amp. I would mute the EFIS with one of the buttons
> on my control stick, however my control stick only has a common ground,
> so all switches close to ground. This would not work for the remote mute.
> Is there any reason why a relay wouldn't work?
> Would the relay above work? It probably is not the best choice, but it
> is only $4 and it would make for common spare parts, so if it would work
> it could be my 'best' choice.
>
> Larry
> RV-10 Builder
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
>
>
> ky=C2=B7=C3=A8=C5=BE=C3=9B"=C3=8D=C3=AD=C5=93=C2=A2Z+=C3=93M4=C3=93G=C3=9A
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
Often when I see two wires like to make some electronic selection I can
trace them back and find out that one is actually a ground.
Ken
On 27/03/2015 1:14 PM, Tim Andres wrote:
> And you can pick up that relay or this one:
> http://www.bandc.biz/spdtsealedrelay12v40a.aspx
> at any NAPA store, they're pretty common.
> But there must be a better way to control the EFIS, using a relay for
> that function doesn't seem very elegant. What control stick is it?
> Tim
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:44 AM, Ralph E. Capen > wrote:
>
>> I have similar installed in my 6A. That relay will work for both
>> applications. Be careful about the relay activation circuit-ground
>> the correct side.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Larry Rosen
>> Date:03/27/2015 09:06 (GMT-07:00)
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Relays
>>
>> >
>>
>> I need some help from the experts. Digi-key has over 13,000 different
>> power relays over 2 amps, and selecting one, for a novice like me, is a
>> daunting task.
>>
>> The relay is for the e-bus battery feed on a 14 volt system. The load
>> is currently 12 amps, but I have been challenged to better define my
>> electrical design objects and possibly reduce the load down to 8 amps.
>> I don't think that will change the relay selection if I were to use a
>> design of 5-20 amps.
>>
>> I selected TE Connectivity 1432793-1 Automotive relay SPDT 30A 12V. Here
>> is the link
>> <http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1432793-1/PB1773-ND/1236843>
>>
>> It is non latching with a diode across the coil. Some of the specs,
>> however, have me confused.
>> The Coil voltage is 12VDC but the Switching voltage is 14 VDC - Nom. Is
>> this an issue?
>> Also the Turn On Voltage (Max) is 7.8 VDC and Turn Off Voltage (Min) 1.2
>> Volts. Does this mean that the coil requires 7.8 volts to latch and it
>> will un-latch if voltage drops below 1.2 volts?
>>
>> I see that most of the automotive relays have high ohm resistors across
>> the coil, or nothing across the coil. When would you select a resistor,
>> diode or nothing?
>>
>> I have another need for a relay in my airplane. My EFIS remote
>> annunciation mute requires a contact to be close via 2 terminals via a
>> momentary switch. The vendor does not specify a current requirement for
>> the switch, and when I contacted them they said any switch would work is
>> is a fraction of an amp. I would mute the EFIS with one of the buttons
>> on my control stick, however my control stick only has a common ground,
>> so all switches close to ground. This would not work for the remote mute.
>> Is there any reason why a relay wouldn't work?
>> Would the relay above work? It probably is not the best choice, but it
>> is only $4 and it would make for common spare parts, so if it would work
>> it could be my 'best' choice.
>>
>> Larry
>> RV-10 Builder
>> http://forums.matronics.==========================nbsp; - List
>> Contribution
>> Wenbsp; &nbf="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contrib======================================
>>
>>
>>
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> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
Larry,
Ken's comment about tracing the EFIS mute circuit is a good idea, but be careful.
There are two ways this circuit could be designed: input pin internally pulled
up or internally pulled down. One method (input pulled up) *should* allow
you to use your grip switch directly (assuming the EFIS doesn't use an isolated
power supply, which is unlikely), but the other method (input pulled down)
requires a relay or switch that's isolated from ship's ground.
I would contact the EFIS manufacturer again and ask specifically if externally
grounding one of the pins will work to activate the mute circuit. If so, problem
solved -- wire the appropriate pin directly to your grip switch.
If not, and you do need a relay, I can offer this option:
I have a few of these relays...
http://bit.ly/1Nj9UEt
...that were excess from a past project. I'd be happy to put one on a piece of
perforated prototype board with a diode and some Tefzel wire leads (labeled!)
and mail it to you. If you want it, just email me your address off the forum
and I'll get it out to you ASAP.
Cheers,
Eric
> On Mar 27, 2015, at 8:06 AM, Larry Rosen wrote:
>
>
> I need some help from the experts. Digi-key has over 13,000 different power
relays over 2 amps, and selecting one, for a novice like me, is a daunting task.
>
> The relay is for the e-bus battery feed on a 14 volt system. The load is currently
12 amps, but I have been challenged to better define my electrical design
objects and possibly reduce the load down to 8 amps. I don't think that will
change the relay selection if I were to use a design of 5-20 amps.
>
> I selected TE Connectivity 1432793-1 Automotive relay SPDT 30A 12V. Here is the link <http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1432793-1/PB1773-ND/1236843>
>
> It is non latching with a diode across the coil. Some of the specs, however,
have me confused.
> The Coil voltage is 12VDC but the Switching voltage is 14 VDC - Nom. Is this
an issue?
> Also the Turn On Voltage (Max) is 7.8 VDC and Turn Off Voltage (Min) 1.2 Volts.
Does this mean that the coil requires 7.8 volts to latch and it will un-latch
if voltage drops below 1.2 volts?
>
> I see that most of the automotive relays have high ohm resistors across the coil,
or nothing across the coil. When would you select a resistor, diode or nothing?
>
> I have another need for a relay in my airplane. My EFIS remote annunciation
mute requires a contact to be close via 2 terminals via a momentary switch. The
vendor does not specify a current requirement for the switch, and when I contacted
them they said any switch would work is is a fraction of an amp. I would
mute the EFIS with one of the buttons on my control stick, however my control
stick only has a common ground, so all switches close to ground. This would
not work for the remote mute.
> Is there any reason why a relay wouldn't work?
> Would the relay above work? It probably is not the best choice, but it is only
$4 and it would make for common spare parts, so if it would work it could be
my 'best' choice.
>
> Larry
> RV-10 Builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com> |
> But there must be a better way to control the EFIS, using a relay for
> that function doesn't seem very elegant. What control stick is it?
> Tim
>
I confirmed with the company and switching to ground is not what they want.
The control sticks are Tosten CS-8
<http://tostenmanufacturing.com/product/cs-8-aircraft-grip/> I really
like the way the feel and I bought them when I was more electrically
naive. My purchase decision may have been different if I knew then what
I know now. Thank you aeroelectric. I am not sure how I am going to
wire the PTT since the PS Engineering audio panel wants the Mic PTT and
Mic Lo switched. Not sure if there is an alternate method or if I need
yet another relay.
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
Larry;
Although you have received some anecdotal responses to your relay question
I'll try to directly answer each of your specific questions.
1: The 30 amp relay you have chosen will safely switch loads from a fraction
of an amp up to its 30 Amp rating, so you are correct in the assumption
that, within reason, your endurance buss load is immaterial to relay choice.
2: A 12V automotive relay is designed to function in the
automotive/vehicular world, therefore any voltage from 9-10 up to 15-16 will
be happily accommodated. Your 14V is not an issue, this is "standard"
vehicular voltage. If you look at the spec sheet for the relay you've chosen
the contacts are rated for 16 volts by the manufacturer.
3: Turn on voltage (max) 7.8 means that if you were to slowly increase the
voltage across the coil from zero that by the time it reached 7.8 the
contacts would have transferred to the on condition. (not latched as you
have stated, this is NOT a latching relay) They might transfer at some value
below 7.8, but will have transferred for sure by 7.8.
4: Turn off voltage (min) 1.2 means that if you were to slowly decrease the
voltage across the coil from the rated 12 volts down to zero, the contacts
would have transferred to the off state by the time the voltage reached 1.2
volts. They might switch off at some level above 1.2 but for sure they will
be off by the time you reach 1.2. (your interpretation of turn on/turn off
voltages is correct, but again this relay does not unlatch by 1.2 volts as
it is not a latching relay. The contacts simply transfer back to the "at
rest" position)
5: I don't see where you found relays with resistors across the coils. They
do exist, but the coil resistance numbers in the Digikey relay tables refer
to the resistance of the coil itself. It is only meaningful with respect to
the amount of current drawn by the coil when energized and if you are using
a 12 volt relay in a 12 volt system it's not something you generally need
worry about. Components added across relay coils such as resistors and
diodes are introduced in an effort to reduce the inductive effects of
turning off the coil. The action of turning off an inductive load (the relay
coil) imposes momentary high voltages (inductive spikes) across the switch
contacts which control the coil causing arcing and possibly reducing the
life of the switch contacts. A resistor provides an alternative path for the
inductive current to dissipate and a diode effectively "shorts" the
inductive current. There are many arguments for each of the methods of
reducing this effect with some advocating diodes as being the most cost
effective solution while others maintain that the slightly increased
switching time caused by the diode is detrimental. Others advocate MOVs,
resistors, or bi-directional zeners, while some suggest nothing is required.
The simple diode installed by some manufacturers, such as the one you've
chosen, seems to be the most widely accepted cost effective method of
mitigating this effect.
6: This relay would "probably" work for your EFIS issue BUT you might
possibly need gold contacts for that application if the current being
switched is low enough. For extremely low currents there is insufficient
arcing to keep silver/tin oxide contacts clean and the oxidation which forms
on them will insulate against very low currents, hence the need for gold
contacts in signal level circuits. ( and no you can't use the gold contacts
for high currents as the arcing will destroy the ultra thin gold plating.)
Hope this somewhat solidifies your understanding of the terminology you've
questioned.
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 11:07 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Relays
>
>
> I need some help from the experts. Digi-key has over 13,000 different
> power relays over 2 amps, and selecting one, for a novice like me, is a
> daunting task.
>
> The relay is for the e-bus battery feed on a 14 volt system. The load
> is currently 12 amps, but I have been challenged to better define my
> electrical design objects and possibly reduce the load down to 8 amps.
> I don't think that will change the relay selection if I were to use a
> design of 5-20 amps.
>
> I selected TE Connectivity 1432793-1 Automotive relay SPDT 30A 12V. Here
> is the link
> <http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1432793-1/PB1773-ND/1236843>
>
> It is non latching with a diode across the coil. Some of the specs,
> however, have me confused.
> The Coil voltage is 12VDC but the Switching voltage is 14 VDC - Nom. Is
> this an issue?
> Also the Turn On Voltage (Max) is 7.8 VDC and Turn Off Voltage (Min) 1.2
> Volts. Does this mean that the coil requires 7.8 volts to latch and it
> will un-latch if voltage drops below 1.2 volts?
>
> I see that most of the automotive relays have high ohm resistors across
> the coil, or nothing across the coil. When would you select a resistor,
> diode or nothing?
>
> I have another need for a relay in my airplane. My EFIS remote
> annunciation mute requires a contact to be close via 2 terminals via a
> momentary switch. The vendor does not specify a current requirement for
> the switch, and when I contacted them they said any switch would work is
> is a fraction of an amp. I would mute the EFIS with one of the buttons
> on my control stick, however my control stick only has a common ground,
> so all switches close to ground. This would not work for the remote mute.
> Is there any reason why a relay wouldn't work?
> Would the relay above work? It probably is not the best choice, but it
> is only $4 and it would make for common spare parts, so if it would work
> it could be my 'best' choice.
>
> Larry
> RV-10 Builder
>
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com> |
Bob McC,
Thanks, very helpful. It did help solidify my understanding.
Would you help me identify a relay that would be a better choice, or
point me into the right direction. It doesen't look like the automotive
type relays have gold contacts they are designed for high (10A and
above) loads.
Larry
On 3/27/2015 11:13 PM, Bob McCallum wrote:
>
> 6: This relay would "probably" work for your EFIS issue BUT you might
> possibly need gold contacts for that application if the current being
> switched is low enough. For extremely low currents there is insufficient
> arcing to keep silver/tin oxide contacts clean and the oxidation which forms
> on them will insulate against very low currents, hence the need for gold
> contacts in signal level circuits. ( and no you can't use the gold contacts
> for high currents as the arcing will destroy the ultra thin gold plating.)
>
> Hope this somewhat solidifies your understanding of the terminology you've
> questioned.
>
> Bob McC
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
>> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
>> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 11:07 AM
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Relays
>>
>>
>> I need some help from the experts. Digi-key has over 13,000 different
>> power relays over 2 amps, and selecting one, for a novice like me, is a
>> daunting task.
>>
>> The relay is for the e-bus battery feed on a 14 volt system. The load
>> is currently 12 amps, but I have been challenged to better define my
>> electrical design objects and possibly reduce the load down to 8 amps.
>> I don't think that will change the relay selection if I were to use a
>> design of 5-20 amps.
>>
>> I selected TE Connectivity 1432793-1 Automotive relay SPDT 30A 12V. Here
>> is the link
>> <http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1432793-1/PB1773-ND/1236843>
>>
>> It is non latching with a diode across the coil. Some of the specs,
>> however, have me confused.
>> The Coil voltage is 12VDC but the Switching voltage is 14 VDC - Nom. Is
>> this an issue?
>> Also the Turn On Voltage (Max) is 7.8 VDC and Turn Off Voltage (Min) 1.2
>> Volts. Does this mean that the coil requires 7.8 volts to latch and it
>> will un-latch if voltage drops below 1.2 volts?
>>
>> I see that most of the automotive relays have high ohm resistors across
>> the coil, or nothing across the coil. When would you select a resistor,
>> diode or nothing?
>>
>> I have another need for a relay in my airplane. My EFIS remote
>> annunciation mute requires a contact to be close via 2 terminals via a
>> momentary switch. The vendor does not specify a current requirement for
>> the switch, and when I contacted them they said any switch would work is
>> is a fraction of an amp. I would mute the EFIS with one of the buttons
>> on my control stick, however my control stick only has a common ground,
>> so all switches close to ground. This would not work for the remote mute.
>> Is there any reason why a relay wouldn't work?
>> Would the relay above work? It probably is not the best choice, but it
>> is only $4 and it would make for common spare parts, so if it would work
>> it could be my 'best' choice.
>>
>> Larry
>> RV-10 Builder
>>
>> _-
>> =====================================================
>> =====
>> _-
>> =====================================================
>> =====
>> _-
>> =====================================================
>> =====
>> _-
>> =====================================================
>> =====
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Will a 12v component work in a 24v environment? |
The recent thread on relays got me wondering about something:
Is there something about a 12v relay or switch (basically mechanical components)
that precludes it's use in a 24v system of the same or less current loads?
Or put another way, a wire suited for 8 amps at 12v will be okay with 8 amps at
24v. So it would that logic also apply to a switch or relay?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439978#439978
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Will a 12v component work in a 24v environment? |
For the switch and for relay contacts, 12volts or 24 volts are
interchangeable for practical purposes.
But not for a 12 volt relay coil. It's current is controlled by its
resistance on our direct current systems. So twice the voltage means
twice the current and four times the power (Power is volts time current
which is heat). It will get hot and have a short life at twice the rated
voltage.
Ken
On 28/03/2015 9:04 AM, donjohnston wrote:
>
> The recent thread on relays got me wondering about something:
>
> Is there something about a 12v relay or switch (basically mechanical components)
that precludes it's use in a 24v system of the same or less current loads?
>
> Or put another way, a wire suited for 8 amps at 12v will be okay with 8 amps
at 24v. So it would that logic also apply to a switch or relay?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439978#439978
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Will a 12v component work in a 24v environment? |
At 08:04 2015-03-28, you wrote:
>
>The recent thread on relays got me wondering about something:
>
>Is there something about a 12v relay or switch (basically mechanical
>components) that precludes it's use in a 24v system of the same or
>less current loads?
>
>Or put another way, a wire suited for 8 amps at 12v will be okay
>with 8 amps at 24v. So it would that logic also apply to a switch or relay?
There are TWO ratings that describe
a relay's function. CONTACTS and COIL.
Generally speaking ANY switch or relay
with published CURRENT ratings for 120VAC will
have ratings in the same ballpark at
14VDC.
The coil is another matter. As others have
pointed out, operating a relay at 2x its
rated coil voltage will QUADRUPLE the power
it dissipates . . . guaranteed destruction.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
OOPS! I didn't get all the downloads on the thread . . .
You've had some excellent feedback already . . .
The only thing I would add is to not obsess over
contact ratings. If you pull the engineering data
sheets on any of the Digikey offerings, you'll find
that each product's ratings are accompanied with
a service life figure in the tens of thousands of
cycles.
Given that you'll probably fly your airplane no
more than 100 hours/year . . . how many years or
hours of flight are required to impress say 5000
cycles on any of your switches/relays?
Bottom line is that I've replaced far more such devices
that suffered from environmental effects of age and
DISUSE than for failure to observe the manufacturer's
published ratings.
The relay is for the e-bus battery feed on a 14 volt system. The
load is currently 12 amps, but I have been challenged to better
define my electrical design objects and possibly reduce the load down
to 8 amps.
I don't think that will change the relay selection if I were to use a
design of 5-20 amps.
Use anything you can find that is in-expensive and
easy to replace. Suggest you install something like
this.
http://tinyurl.com/qagvybn
I've purchased similar devices for as little as
$2.00 each in hundreds. Given that this is the
ALTERNATE feed path relay, it will get cycled ONCE
per flight so maybe a couple hundred times per year.
Further, its functionality is PREFLIGHT tested thus
limiting its ability to become an undetected latent
failure.
I selected TE Connectivity 1432793-1 Automotive relay SPDT 30A 12V.
Here is the link
<http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1432793-1/PB1773-ND/1236843>
It is non latching with a diode across the coil. Some of the specs,
however, have me confused.
The Coil voltage is 12VDC but the Switching voltage is 14 VDC -
Nom. Is this an issue?
Also the Turn On Voltage (Max) is 7.8 VDC and Turn Off Voltage (Min)
1.2 Volts. Does this mean that the coil requires 7.8 volts to latch
and it will un-latch if voltage drops below 1.2 volts?
Pretty much.
I see that most of the automotive relays have high ohm resistors
across the coil, or nothing across the coil. When would you select a
resistor, diode or nothing?
Either resistor or diode is fine . . . I prefer
the diode but again . . . for a few hundred
cycles per YEAR . . . the precise suppression
method is exceedingly un-critical.
I have another need for a relay in my airplane. My EFIS remote
annunciation mute requires a contact to be close via 2 terminals via
a momentary switch. The vendor does not specify a current
requirement for the switch, and when I contacted them they said any
switch would work is is a fraction of an amp. I would mute the EFIS
with one of the buttons on my control stick, however my control stick
only has a common ground, so all switches close to ground. This would
not work for the remote mute.
Is there any reason why a relay wouldn't work?
Would the relay above work? It probably is not the best choice, but
it is only $4 and it would make for common spare parts, so if it
would work it could be my 'best' choice.
This is not a flight-critical functionality. If
I were spec'ing the relay into a TC aircraft,
I would pick something with established reliability
(just to keep the paper shufflers happy). For our
purposes, any "telecom" rated (low current contacts)
like this would do just fine.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1461070-5/1461070-5-ND/1427501
The logistical problem with these relays is how
to bolt he little buggers to an airplane. Unlike
the one I cited above, these critters are designed
to solder to an etched circuit board and don't feature
mounting ears of any type.
Probably the easiest thing to do is solder 22AWG
lead wires to the proper 4 pins . . . perhaps install
a coil-suppression diode right on the pins. Pot the
assembly into a 'bolt-able' housing with long-set
epoxy with the wires hanging out. Alternatively,
mount to a perf-board and bring vibration supported
wires off the board. There's no graceful way to do
this. From a production perspective, I've often
considered offering a relay something like this
Emacs!
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/TQ2SL-12V/255-2853-ND/649407
mounted within one of our stock d-sub housings sorta
like this . . .
Emacs!
This is one way to incorporate such relays in
a manner that looks more business-like for airplanes.
Also much less prone to failure by reason
of installation shortfall . . .
It IS a bit of a conundrum . . . but know that ratings for
these relays are the least of the issues.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
Here's some additional materials that go toward
understanding 'contact science' . . . whether
you're talking about switches or relays. Relays
are just remotely operated switches. The
CONTACTS share the same physics.
http://tinyurl.com/nda9su5
Here's a couple of documents produced by one of the
'granddaddies' of switch and relay business
http://tinyurl.com/ngnjglx
http://tinyurl.com/nenvxrx
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Quote from the Tyco paper,
> Some relay users connect a diode across the inductive load to prevent counter-voltage
from reaching the contacts. . . . While this is an acceptable method
of protecting the contacts, it does result in lengthened hold-up time of the inductive
load.
So Bob, this does not contradict the results of your lab experiments (If I remember
your posts correctly.) that demonstrate that arc suppression diodes delay
opening of relay contacts, but do not cause the contacts to open slower once
they start opening. A hold-up delay of less than one second is of no consequence
in most amateur built aircraft.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440026#440026
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 21:13 2015-03-29, you wrote:
>
>Quote from the Tyco paper,
> > Some relay users connect a diode across the inductive load to
> prevent counter-voltage from reaching the contacts. . . . While
> this is an acceptable method of protecting the contacts, it does
> result in lengthened hold-up time of the inductive load.
>
>So Bob, this does not contradict the results of your lab experiments
>(If I remember your posts correctly.) that demonstrate that arc
>suppression diodes delay opening of relay contacts, but do not cause
>the contacts to open slower once they start opening. A hold-up
>delay of less than one second is of no consequence in most amateur
>built aircraft.
Good eye!!!! There was a lengthy discussion here
on the list some years ago. About that same time,
I was deeply immersed in some failure studies of
relays on the roll trim system on the Beechjet.
Even the folks who supplied the relays couldn't
figure out what was going on . . . and it took
me several years of sifting the reports and doing
the science to identify and demonstrate
the root cause.
Here's 'the meat' of a report I crafted for RAC.
http://tinyurl.com/pstsggm
Turns out that primary stresser for causing very
lightly loaded contacts to stick was an effect not
discussed or warned against in any relay applications
document I could find.
Some years earlier, I was able to explore and confirm
that the form of coil suppression on a relay had
very little effect on the contact spreading velocity
once the relay started to open. Diodes have
a PROFOUND effect on drop out delay . . . but that
forcing function has almost no effect on spreading
velocity . . . hence tendency to arc. Once the armature
comes off the electro-magnet pole-piece, the AIR GAP
produced therein weakens the magnetic force far
more rapidly than the diode can retard it's decay.
http://tinyurl.com/qgkgo88
It's tar-bucket stepped into by many
authors in the 'relay arts'. A document
from Tyco was often cited here on the list where
one ASSUMED that because the diode retards
drop-out response . . . if just logically followed
that the contacts must spread more slowly as well.
http://tinyurl.com/ndc6cvl
Now, if we were using relays in systems wire TIMING
was critical . . . the extended drop-out delay
might cause other problems . . . but not reduced
contact life due to aggravated arcing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Relays can also stick for mechanical reasons unrelated to contact current or to
coil current. Many relays are made with a thin film of non-magnetic material
between the coil core and the armature to prevent them from sticking together
due to residual magnetism. If that thin film is missing or damaged, the relay
can stick closed.
At work a machine operator complained that the equipment started up all by itself.
The equipment was a large mixing tank powered by a 5 HP three phase motor.
The operator pushed the stop button and the run-light went out. Later the
operator noticed that the mixer was running again. He called an electrician
who confirmed that the motor started running all by itself. (Even reliable witnesses
make mistakes.) I got involved and found that the start-stop buttons
send signals to a PLC (Programmable Logic Controller). And the PLC controls
the run indicator light and an AC contactor. The PLC worked fine. When the stop
button was pushed, the run indicator light went out and the PLC opened the
contactor coil circuit. But the contactor did not open. So it turns out that
the motor did not start up all by itself. It never stopped running when the
stop button was pushed. I replaced the contactor and that fixed the problem.
I examined the contractor on the workbench but could not find any mechanical
problem with it. My conclusion was that the contactor was sticking closed due
to either residual magnetism or due to atmospheric pressure (like when two oily
flat surfaces can be hard to separate). The contactor did have two large
mating surfaces that fit perfectly together. The moral of the story is, expect
the unexpected and verify what other tell you.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440037#440037
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Handheld transceiver alternate antenna |
| From: | Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com> |
Found this article in kitplanes archive which describes a $2 antenna
diplexer.
*http://tinyurl.com/nz6q8qb *
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 9:30 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 16:34 2015-02-25, you wrote:
>
> It could be made to work Ken but it is more complicated than necessary. It
> also needs a 12 volt supply and utilises SMA connectors. I suggest you look
> for a much simpler mechanical switch type. They are commonly available
> from ham radio suppliers and usually are fitted with SO-239 connectors.
> Connection is selected by simply turning a knob or flicking a switch.
> Better reliability.
>
>
> Most COTS antenna switches are designed
> to select from two or more antennas to a
> single transceiver/receiver . . . there
> are no concerns for leaving "the alternate
> transceiver" unterminated.
>
> It turns out that ICOM produces a convenient little, optionally
> panel-mounted device for exactly what you need, under the name Antenna
> Switchbox, P/N IC-ANT-SB, which can be had for $64 from Aircraft Spruce
> including the BNC-terminate interconnect cable for your handheld.
>
> Yes, I purchased one about a dozen years ago
> and dissected it.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/nn2sysd
>
> http://tinyurl.com/pp6tzgv
>
> . . . yes, it performs as advertised but not
> very sanitary with respect to managing a
> transmission line. Another concern for me was
> a kind flimsy, normally-closed contact on the jack that
> was supposed provide center-conductor integrity
> through the adapter. Finally, the ICOM product
> was pretty over-sized to the task. I fiddled with
> a DIY version . . .
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kluld58
>
> . . . that didn't put as bit a 'lump' in the
> transmission line's RF profile. It was a lot less
> demanding of panel real estate. But it still
> offered lackluster robustness due to quality
> of the n.c. audio jack being pressed into
> service as a coax connector.
>
> I toyed with the idea of offering a crew
> accessible antenna switch that would terminate
> the OFF transceiver line in a little dummy load.
> I think I offered to bring one into being as an
> AEC product if I could get a commitment for
> purchase of some small quantity of units . . .
> I think it was ten.
>
> That didn't rise off the ground either. SSSsoooooo . . .
> a completely independent antenna or a DIY 'patch
> cable' of some arrangement are the elegant
> choices.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handheld transceiver alternate antenna |
Strictly speaking, I don't think it qualifies as a diplexer but it
should certainly work.
On 31/03/2015 3:22 AM, Hariharan Gopalan wrote:
> Found this article in kitplanes archive which describes a $2 antenna
> diplexer.
>
> *http://tinyurl.com/nz6q8qb*
> *
> *
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 9:30 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> >
> wrote:
>
> At 16:34 2015-02-25, you wrote:
>> It could be made to work Ken but it is more complicated than
>> necessary. It also needs a 12 volt supply and utilises SMA
>> connectors. I suggest you look for a much simpler mechanical
>> switch type. They are commonly available from ham radio suppliers
>> and usually are fitted with SO-239 connectors. Connection is
>> selected by simply turning a knob or flicking a switch. Better
>> reliability.
>
> Most COTS antenna switches are designed
> to select from two or more antennas to a
> single transceiver/receiver . . . there
> are no concerns for leaving "the alternate
> transceiver" unterminated.
>
> It turns out that ICOM produces a convenient little, optionally
> panel-mounted device for exactly what you need, under the name Antenna
> Switchbox, P/N IC-ANT-SB, which can be had for $64 from Aircraft
> Spruce
> including the BNC-terminate interconnect cable for your handheld.
>
> Yes, I purchased one about a dozen years ago
> and dissected it.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/nn2sysd
>
> http://tinyurl.com/pp6tzgv
>
> . . . yes, it performs as advertised but not
> very sanitary with respect to managing a
> transmission line. Another concern for me was
> a kind flimsy, normally-closed contact on the jack that
> was supposed provide center-conductor integrity
> through the adapter. Finally, the ICOM product
> was pretty over-sized to the task. I fiddled with
> a DIY version . . .
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kluld58
>
> . . . that didn't put as bit a 'lump' in the
> transmission line's RF profile. It was a lot less
> demanding of panel real estate. But it still
> offered lackluster robustness due to quality
> of the n.c. audio jack being pressed into
> service as a coax connector.
>
> I toyed with the idea of offering a crew
> accessible antenna switch that would terminate
> the OFF transceiver line in a little dummy load.
> I think I offered to bring one into being as an
> AEC product if I could get a commitment for
> purchase of some small quantity of units . . .
> I think it was ten.
>
> That didn't rise off the ground either. SSSsoooooo . . .
> a completely independent antenna or a DIY 'patch
> cable' of some arrangement are the elegant
> choices.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRosen" <N205EN(at)gmail.com> |
I will try one more time. Not sure why my message got through without any text.
Putting the signal relay into a backshell seems like an interesting project I would
like to try.
Are there any d-sub backshells that are better suited to stuffing the relay into?
I have looked some electrical catalogs for a mounting bracket like you describe.
I take it it is a roll your own.
And finally would you solder wire to the relay and use pins into the d-sub?
I will post pictures when I get it done.
Larry
--------
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440053#440053
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handheld transceiver alternate antenna |
At 11:22 2015-03-30, you wrote:
Found this article in kitplanes archive which describes a $2 antenna diplexer.
http://tinyurl.com/nz6q8qb
This would more properly be called a 'switch', a
system whereby a single antenna may be routed to
any one of two or more transceivers. A 'diplexer'
is a device that allows two activities to share a
single resource. WAyyyy back when, television receivers
had both UHF and VHF antenna terminals on the back.
One was expected to have both UHF and VHF antennas
on the roof with separate feed lines brought into
the house. A 'diplexer' would combine two signals from
separate antennas for transport into the house on one
feed line. A similar device was hooked up in reverse
at the receiver to feed UHF and VHF signals to their
respective inputs.
Sony EAC-DD1 SAT/VHF/UHF Diplexer
MT-1006 300-Ohm Input to 75 & 300-Ohm Output VHF/UHF/FM An
Later on, wide band tuners would accept UHF and VHF
signals into a single antenna jack . . .but a diplexer
was still a useful thing to use for combining the
two spectrums into one feed line on the roof.
A duplexer is a bit more sophisticated. It's generally
used to allow simultaneous use of a single feed line
for both receive and transmit. Repeaters of
all stripe will make good use of a duplexer to
watch a single antenna and feed line for
sub-microvolt signals coming down then separating
that signal out to a receiver while simultaneously
allowing a 100 watt transmitter to squirt a signal
up the same feed line to the same antenna.
TX RX VARI-NOTCH VHF DUPLEXER 144-174 MHz Model 28-37-06C HAM R
Real magic stuff. I've tuned dozens of such devices
and built a few for both commercial and amateur
radio applications. They save you a lot of money
for feed lines and antennas when your antenna
site is hundreds to perhaps a thousand feet
up the side of a tower. But they can be a 'horsy'
beast. The legacy duplexer for 146Mhz was 4 to
8 "stove pipes" about 20" tall.
UHF duplexers are proportionately smaller but still
substantial pieces of equipment.
There is good application for a diplexer/spltter in aircraft
where a single VHF VOR antenna can be pressed into
service to drive either multiple VOR receivers or
even multiple GlideSlope receivers.
Avionics Antenna Comant Dual VOR / Glide Slope Splitter, P/N CI
What good man Jim has described in his article
is a clone (along with evaluation of performance)
of the Icom hand-held antenna jack and SWITCH
that we discussed earlier in this thread and
at some length years ago.
Emacs!
^^^^ Icom Product ^^^^
Emacs!
^^^^ AEC DIY project ^^^^
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
| From: | Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com> |
Hello Group
I happen to acquire a Blue Mountain Avionics Powerboard along with an EFIS
purchase and contemplating incorporating this in the Z19RB on my Bearhawk.
The Powerboard came with lighted switches and seems to make the wiring
process simpler, hence the inclination to use it. Wondering if the
powerboard adds any value, other than the lighted switch, which I guess I
can add other wise as well, to the electrical system or should I just dump
it and keep it simple with the Z19RB?
Thanks
Hari
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 22:28 2015-03-30, you wrote:
I will try one more time. Not sure why my message got through
without any text.
Putting the signal relay into a backshell seems like an interesting
project I would like to try.
Are there any d-sub backshells that are better suited to stuffing the
relay into?
I have looked some electrical catalogs for a mounting bracket like
you describe.
I take it it is a roll your own. And finally would you solder wire to the relay
and use pins into the d-sub?
Good for you . . .
The legacy DSub shells have internal dimensions
that closely mimic connectors themselves. The D15
backshells I use have internal 'thickness' heights
on the order of 0.45"
The relay you choose must have at least one dimension
equal to or less than the internal height of the shell.
If you like, I can mail you a shell and bracket. The
connectors and hardware are prolific.
Relays too. . . there's probalby 100 parts
in the Digikey catalog suited you task. First
crack at a search
Emacs!
http://tinyurl.com/p3f3cbh
A surface mount version is good . . . you might
have to cut pins off anyhow. Neat doesn't count
Use solder cup connector and 24 or 26 awg wire.
Solid wire is okay . . . after you've check it
for functionality, you'll pot it with hot-glue.
Let me know if you want the parts.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
At 12:46 2015-03-31, you wrote:
Hello Group
I happen to acquire a Blue Mountain Avionics
Powerboard along with an EFIS purchase and
contemplating incorporating this in the Z19RB on
my Bearhawk. The Powerboard came with lighted
switches and seems to make the wiring process
simpler, hence the inclination to use
it. Wondering if the powerboard adds any value,
other than the lighted switch, which I guess I
can add other wise as well, to the electrical
system or should I just dump it and keep it simple with the Z19RB?
Thanks
Hari
Thanks a long story my friend. But first, indulge us a
bit . . . what kind of EFIS system came with the Power
Board? Tell us more about your project:
Engine, fuel system, ignition system, number and sizes
of proposed alternators and how do you plan to use this
airplane? Finally, why Z-19?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
Also be aware that Blue Mountain is long out of business after a number
of very shakey years prior to the collapse.
So anything that is Blue Mountain design will be limited to generic
electronic parts for repair.
On 3/31/2015 2:09 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> At 12:46 2015-03-31, you wrote:
> Hello Group
>
> I happen to acquire a Blue Mountain Avionics Powerboard along with an
> EFIS purchase and contemplating incorporating this in the Z19RB on my
> Bearhawk. The Powerboard came with lighted switches and seems to make
> the wiring process simpler, hence the inclination to use it.
> Wondering if the powerboard adds any value, other than the lighted
> switch, which I guess I can add other wise as well, to the electrical
> system or should I just dump it and keep it simple with the Z19RB?
>
> Thanks
> Hari
>
> Thanks a long story my friend. But first, indulge us a
> bit . . . what kind of EFIS system came with the Power
> Board? Tell us more about your project:
>
> Engine, fuel system, ignition system, number and sizes
> of proposed alternators and how do you plan to use this
> airplane? Finally, why Z-19?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
| From: | Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Bob, ever so grateful for such an amazing resource of knowledge and
experience, humbly bow down :)
The project is a 4 place bearhawk with an Eggenfellner 3.0 L Subaru EZ30
fuel injected engine. It has an SDS EFI and one 60A alternator. Since the
engine is an electrically dependent engine, Z19 seemed to be the best.
Though I am not IFR certified, eventually plan to fly IFR.
I am aware that BMA is out of business, but considering the price at which
I bought the package consisting of an 8" EFIS, 5" EFIS, the power board,
auto pilot servos and the engine pod, it made sense in dollar terms to take
a risk. The EFIS was practically new and I bench tested everything. Also,
know of a few people who are happily using the same without any problems
for several years.
Other than the EFIS, I have acquired the following avionics:
1. GTX 330
2. SL30
3. Microair COM (backup)
Eagerly looking forward to words of wisdom from this enlightened group.
Thanks
Hari
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote
:
> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> Also be aware that Blue Mountain is long out of business after a number o
f
> very shakey years prior to the collapse.
> So anything that is Blue Mountain design will be limited to generic
> electronic parts for repair.
>
>
> On 3/31/2015 2:09 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>>
>> At 12:46 2015-03-31, you wrote:
>> Hello Group
>>
>> I happen to acquire a Blue Mountain Avionics Powerboard along with an
>> EFIS purchase and contemplating incorporating this in the Z19RB on my
>> Bearhawk. The Powerboard came with lighted switches and seems to make th
e
>> wiring process simpler, hence the inclination to use it.=C3=82 Wonderin
g if the
>> powerboard adds any value, other than the lighted switch, which I guess
I
>> can add other wise as well, to the electrical system or should I just du
mp
>> it and keep it simple with the Z19RB?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Hari
>>
>> Thanks a long story my friend. But first, indulge us a
>> bit . . . what kind of EFIS system came with the Power
>> Board? Tell us more about your project:
>>
>> Engine, fuel system, ignition system, number and sizes
>> of proposed alternators and how do you plan to use this
>> airplane? Finally, why Z-19?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> Wondering if the powerboard adds any value, . . . or should I just dump it and
keep it simple with the Z19RB?
This is a matter of personal preference. My preference is to make it easy to repair
in the future. Keep it simple. It is easy to troubleshoot and replace
a bad switch. A power board might not be so easy. Sell it on eBay.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440139#440139
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
At 22:25 2015-03-31, you wrote:
>Thanks Bob, ever so grateful for such an amazing
>resource of knowledge and experience, humbly bow down :)
>
>The project is a 4 place bearhawk with an
>Eggenfellner 3.0 L Subaru EZ30 fuel injected
>engine. It has an SDS EFI and one 60A
>alternator. Since the engine is an electrically
>dependent engine, Z19 seemed to be the best.
>Though I am not IFR certified, eventually plan to fly IFR.
>
>I am aware that BMA is out of business, but
>considering the price at which I bought the
>package consisting of an 8" EFIS, 5" EFIS, the
>power board, auto pilot servos and the engine
>pod, it made sense in dollar terms to take a
>risk. The EFIS was practically new and I bench
>tested everything. Also, know of a few people
>who are happily using the same without any problems for several years.
>
>Other than the EFIS, I have acquired the following avionics:
>
>1. GTX 330
>2. SL30
>3. Microair COM (backup)
>
>Eagerly looking forward to words of wisdom from this enlightened group.
You've already been offered some such words . . . I'm packing
up for a day-trip to Wichita to visit a customer but I'll
be back this evening to address your questions in more detail.
In the mean time there are no doubt others who would like
to share ideas and reasons . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
| From: | Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com> |
Yes Joe, if it is not adding to the system reliability or ease of use, will
avoid using it.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 8:50 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
>
> > Wondering if the powerboard adds any value, . . . or should I just dump
> it and keep it simple with the Z19RB?
>
> This is a matter of personal preference. My preference is to make it easy
> to repair in the future. Keep it simple. It is easy to troubleshoot and
> replace a bad switch. A power board might not be so easy. Sell it on eBay.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440139#440139
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Raby" <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
After having a Blue mountain freeze up flying ifr. I threw it in the
trash.
Regards
Ron Raby
----- Original Message -----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB
Thanks Bob, ever so grateful for such an amazing resource of knowledge
and experience, humbly bow down :)
The project is a 4 place bearhawk with an Eggenfellner 3.0 L Subaru
EZ30 fuel injected engine. It has an SDS EFI and one 60A alternator.
Since the engine is an electrically dependent engine, Z19 seemed to be
the best. Though I am not IFR certified, eventually plan to fly IFR.
I am aware that BMA is out of business, but considering the price at
which I bought the package consisting of an 8" EFIS, 5" EFIS, the power
board, auto pilot servos and the engine pod, it made sense in dollar
terms to take a risk. The EFIS was practically new and I bench tested
everything. Also, know of a few people who are happily using the same
without any problems for several years.
Other than the EFIS, I have acquired the following avionics:
1. GTX 330
2. SL30
3. Microair COM (backup)
Eagerly looking forward to words of wisdom from this enlightened
group.
Thanks
Hari
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Kelly McMullen
wrote:
Also be aware that Blue Mountain is long out of business after a
number of very shakey years prior to the collapse.
So anything that is Blue Mountain design will be limited to generic
electronic parts for repair.
On 3/31/2015 2:09 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
At 12:46 2015-03-31, you wrote:
Hello Group
I happen to acquire a Blue Mountain Avionics Powerboard along with
an EFIS purchase and contemplating incorporating this in the Z19RB on my
Bearhawk. The Powerboard came with lighted switches and seems to make
the wiring process simpler, hence the inclination to use it.=C3=82
Wondering if the powerboard adds any value, other than the lighted
switch, which I guess I can add other wise as well, to the electrical
system or should I just dump it and keep it simple with the Z19RB?
Thanks
Hari
Thanks a long story my friend. But first, indulge us a
bit . . . what kind of EFIS system came with the Power
Board? Tell us more about your project:
Engine, fuel system, ignition system, number and sizes
of proposed alternators and how do you plan to use this
airplane? Finally, why Z-19?
Bob . . .
-
Electric-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
| From: | Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com> |
Which model / version was that Ron? The earlier Gen 3 had many problems,
but since they changed to an RT linux OS, and better hardware, it supposed
to be stable.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Ron Raby wrote:
> After having a Blue mountain freeze up flying ifr. I threw it in the
> trash.
>
> Regards
>
> Ron Raby
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Hariharan Gopalan
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:25 PM
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB
>
> Thanks Bob, ever so grateful for such an amazing resource of knowledge
> and experience, humbly bow down :)
>
> The project is a 4 place bearhawk with an Eggenfellner 3.0 L Subaru EZ30
> fuel injected engine. It has an SDS EFI and one 60A alternator. Since the
> engine is an electrically dependent engine, Z19 seemed to be the best.
> Though I am not IFR certified, eventually plan to fly IFR.
>
> I am aware that BMA is out of business, but considering the price at whic
h
> I bought the package consisting of an 8" EFIS, 5" EFIS, the power board,
> auto pilot servos and the engine pod, it made sense in dollar terms to ta
ke
> a risk. The EFIS was practically new and I bench tested everything. Also,
> know of a few people who are happily using the same without any problems
> for several years.
>
> Other than the EFIS, I have acquired the following avionics:
>
> 1. GTX 330
> 2. SL30
> 3. Microair COM (backup)
>
> Eagerly looking forward to words of wisdom from this enlightened group.
>
> Thanks
> Hari
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Kelly McMullen
> wrote:
>
>> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>>
>> Also be aware that Blue Mountain is long out of business after a number
>> of very shakey years prior to the collapse.
>> So anything that is Blue Mountain design will be limited to generic
>> electronic parts for repair.
>>
>>
>> On 3/31/2015 2:09 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>>>
>>> At 12:46 2015-03-31, you wrote:
>>> Hello Group
>>>
>>> I happen to acquire a Blue Mountain Avionics Powerboard along with an
>>> EFIS purchase and contemplating incorporating this in the Z19RB on my
>>> Bearhawk. The Powerboard came with lighted switches and seems to make t
he
>>> wiring process simpler, hence the inclination to use it.=C3=82 Wonderi
ng if the
>>> powerboard adds any value, other than the lighted switch, which I guess
I
>>> can add other wise as well, to the electrical system or should I just d
ump
>>> it and keep it simple with the Z19RB?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Hari
>>>
>>> Thanks a long story my friend. But first, indulge us a
>>> bit . . . what kind of EFIS system came with the Power
>>> Board? Tell us more about your project:
>>>
>>> Engine, fuel system, ignition system, number and sizes
>>> of proposed alternators and how do you plan to use this
>>> airplane? Finally, why Z-19?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>> Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ========================
===========
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ========================
===========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ">http://www.matronics.com/Naviga
tor?AeroElectric-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com ">http:/
/forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
===========
www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich(at)dcscorp.com> |
| Subject: | Z13/8 Testimoney |
RV-8A with nearly 500 hours over 4 years flying out of Inyokern, CA (IYK).
Never any electrical issues. Minding my business near Bakersfield yesterday
setting up for practice approaches when I noticed the flashing low voltage
light. No degrading of capabilities, but voltage going down. Flipped two s
witches - Aux Alt ON and END Bus ON and electrons started flowing. Turned o
ff strobes and headed home with GPS, AFS 4500, IFF, SL30 and Tru Trak ADI (
my backup attitude indicator) working.
Then noticed Alt Field CB popped. After clearing mountains, reset CB - and
it stayed reset. Went back to main alt power.
Now trying to figure out what happened. Removed cowl - all wires and connec
tions intact. Greg at B&C most helpful so will go through LR3C-14 trouble s
hooting steps later today.
Anyone on the list have any words of wisdom about popped Alt Field CBs that
stay reset? Now seems like a temporary intermittent gremlin that's one ste
p ahead of me.
I spent a lot of time during electrical system design deciding on Bob's Z13
/8 architecture with all B&C components. My one data point: works as advert
ised and is more than adequate for continued flight after the main alternat
or goes south.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Raby" <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
It was an efis 1. it was an early one for sure.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB
Which model / version was that Ron? The earlier Gen 3 had many
problems, but since they changed to an RT linux OS, and better hardware,
it supposed to be stable.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Ron Raby
wrote:
After having a Blue mountain freeze up flying ifr. I threw it in the
trash.
Regards
Ron Raby
----- Original Message -----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB
Thanks Bob, ever so grateful for such an amazing resource of
knowledge and experience, humbly bow down :)
The project is a 4 place bearhawk with an Eggenfellner 3.0 L
Subaru EZ30 fuel injected engine. It has an SDS EFI and one 60A
alternator. Since the engine is an electrically dependent engine, Z19
seemed to be the best. Though I am not IFR certified, eventually plan to
fly IFR.
I am aware that BMA is out of business, but considering the price
at which I bought the package consisting of an 8" EFIS, 5" EFIS, the
power board, auto pilot servos and the engine pod, it made sense in
dollar terms to take a risk. The EFIS was practically new and I bench
tested everything. Also, know of a few people who are happily using the
same without any problems for several years.
Other than the EFIS, I have acquired the following avionics:
1. GTX 330
2. SL30
3. Microair COM (backup)
Eagerly looking forward to words of wisdom from this enlightened
group.
Thanks
Hari
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Kelly McMullen
wrote:
Also be aware that Blue Mountain is long out of business after a
number of very shakey years prior to the collapse.
So anything that is Blue Mountain design will be limited to
generic electronic parts for repair.
On 3/31/2015 2:09 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
III"
At 12:46 2015-03-31, you wrote:
Hello Group
I happen to acquire a Blue Mountain Avionics Powerboard along
with an EFIS purchase and contemplating incorporating this in the Z19RB
on my Bearhawk. The Powerboard came with lighted switches and seems to
make the wiring process simpler, hence the inclination to use it.=C3=82
Wondering if the powerboard adds any value, other than the lighted
switch, which I guess I can add other wise as well, to the electrical
system or should I just dump it and keep it simple with the Z19RB?
Thanks
Hari
Thanks a long story my friend. But first, indulge us a
bit . . . what kind of EFIS system came with the Power
Board? Tell us more about your project:
Engine, fuel system, ignition system, number and sizes
of proposed alternators and how do you plan to use this
airplane? Finally, why Z-19?
Bob . . .
==========
-
Electric-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
| From: | Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Ron, that is comforting to know it was not the later version.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Ron Raby wrote:
> It was an efis 1. it was an early one for sure.
>
> Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Hariharan Gopalan
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 01, 2015 10:30 AM
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB
>
> Which model / version was that Ron? The earlier Gen 3 had many problems,
> but since they changed to an RT linux OS, and better hardware, it suppose
d
> to be stable.
>
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Ron Raby wrote
:
>
>> After having a Blue mountain freeze up flying ifr. I threw it in the
>> trash.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Ron Raby
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Hariharan Gopalan
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:25 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB
>>
>> Thanks Bob, ever so grateful for such an amazing resource of knowledge
>> and experience, humbly bow down :)
>>
>> The project is a 4 place bearhawk with an Eggenfellner 3.0 L Subaru EZ30
>> fuel injected engine. It has an SDS EFI and one 60A alternator. Since th
e
>> engine is an electrically dependent engine, Z19 seemed to be the best.
>> Though I am not IFR certified, eventually plan to fly IFR.
>>
>> I am aware that BMA is out of business, but considering the price at
>> which I bought the package consisting of an 8" EFIS, 5" EFIS, the power
>> board, auto pilot servos and the engine pod, it made sense in dollar ter
ms
>> to take a risk. The EFIS was practically new and I bench tested everythi
ng.
>> Also, know of a few people who are happily using the same without any
>> problems for several years.
>>
>> Other than the EFIS, I have acquired the following avionics:
>>
>> 1. GTX 330
>> 2. SL30
>> 3. Microair COM (backup)
>>
>> Eagerly looking forward to words of wisdom from this enlightened group.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Hari
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Kelly McMullen
>> wrote:
>>
>>> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>>>
>>> Also be aware that Blue Mountain is long out of business after a number
>>> of very shakey years prior to the collapse.
>>> So anything that is Blue Mountain design will be limited to generic
>>> electronic parts for repair.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/31/2015 2:09 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>>
>>>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>>>>
>>>> At 12:46 2015-03-31, you wrote:
>>>> Hello Group
>>>>
>>>> I happen to acquire a Blue Mountain Avionics Powerboard along with an
>>>> EFIS purchase and contemplating incorporating this in the Z19RB on my
>>>> Bearhawk. The Powerboard came with lighted switches and seems to make
the
>>>> wiring process simpler, hence the inclination to use it.=C3=82 Wonder
ing if the
>>>> powerboard adds any value, other than the lighted switch, which I gues
s I
>>>> can add other wise as well, to the electrical system or should I just
dump
>>>> it and keep it simple with the Z19RB?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Hari
>>>>
>>>> Thanks a long story my friend. But first, indulge us a
>>>> bit . . . what kind of EFIS system came with the Power
>>>> Board? Tell us more about your project:
>>>>
>>>> Engine, fuel system, ignition system, number and sizes
>>>> of proposed alternators and how do you plan to use this
>>>> airplane? Finally, why Z-19?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob . . .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> -
>>> Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>>> Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> =======================
============
>>> FORUMS -
>>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> =======================
============
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ">http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?AeroElectric-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Lis
t>
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com ">http:
//forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-L
ist <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ">http://www.matronics.com/Naviga
tor?AeroElectric-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com ">http:/
/forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
===========
www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Raby" <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
Hi Hari
It was a lot of work to get the unit working properly sometimes. Where
other equipment was plug and play. I just did not want to see anyone
else go thru the same. 100s of extra hours.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB
Thanks Ron, that is comforting to know it was not the later version.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Ron Raby
wrote:
It was an efis 1. it was an early one for sure.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB
Which model / version was that Ron? The earlier Gen 3 had many
problems, but since they changed to an RT linux OS, and better hardware,
it supposed to be stable.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Ron Raby
wrote:
After having a Blue mountain freeze up flying ifr. I threw it in
the trash.
Regards
Ron Raby
----- Original Message -----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB
Thanks Bob, ever so grateful for such an amazing resource of
knowledge and experience, humbly bow down :)
The project is a 4 place bearhawk with an Eggenfellner 3.0 L
Subaru EZ30 fuel injected engine. It has an SDS EFI and one 60A
alternator. Since the engine is an electrically dependent engine, Z19
seemed to be the best. Though I am not IFR certified, eventually plan to
fly IFR.
I am aware that BMA is out of business, but considering the
price at which I bought the package consisting of an 8" EFIS, 5" EFIS,
the power board, auto pilot servos and the engine pod, it made sense in
dollar terms to take a risk. The EFIS was practically new and I bench
tested everything. Also, know of a few people who are happily using the
same without any problems for several years.
Other than the EFIS, I have acquired the following avionics:
1. GTX 330
2. SL30
3. Microair COM (backup)
Eagerly looking forward to words of wisdom from this
enlightened group.
Thanks
Hari
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Kelly McMullen
wrote:
Also be aware that Blue Mountain is long out of business
after a number of very shakey years prior to the collapse.
So anything that is Blue Mountain design will be limited to
generic electronic parts for repair.
On 3/31/2015 2:09 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Nuckolls, III"
At 12:46 2015-03-31, you wrote:
Hello Group
I happen to acquire a Blue Mountain Avionics Powerboard
along with an EFIS purchase and contemplating incorporating this in the
Z19RB on my Bearhawk. The Powerboard came with lighted switches and
seems to make the wiring process simpler, hence the inclination to use
it.=C3=82 Wondering if the powerboard adds any value, other than the
lighted switch, which I guess I can add other wise as well, to the
electrical system or should I just dump it and keep it simple with the
Z19RB?
Thanks
Hari
Thanks a long story my friend. But first, indulge us a
bit . . . what kind of EFIS system came with the Power
Board? Tell us more about your project:
Engine, fuel system, ignition system, number and sizes
of proposed alternators and how do you plan to use this
airplane? Finally, why Z-19?
Bob . . .
==========
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z13/8 Testimoney |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Here are some possibilities:
Defective circuit breaker.
Loose connection on circuit breaker which generates heat. Heat will cause a breaker
to trip.
Overyly sensitive crowbar over-voltage module nuisance tripped and popped breaker.
A loose or corroded connection anywhere from the main power bus to the LR3C-14
and to the alternator field.
A poor ground can cause problems.
The vast majority of electrical problems are caused by bad connections.
B and C has instructions and troubleshooting guide.
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/LR3C_Installation_Manual.pdf
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440163#440163
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Single fuse for two fuel guages only |
I have been doing some rearranging of the wiring and circuit protection in my 6A.
I found my two fuel guages ( Vans IE-VFL-15) wired directly to the starter power
input on the key switch (I must have been lazy that day). The documentation
calls for 18AWG wiring for this circuit - but does not specify circuit protection
sizing. I am thinking a 3 amp fuse should allow sufficient current and provide
protection for the wiring.
Thoughts please!
Ralph Capen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Single fuse for two fuel guages only |
Le 01/04/2015 20:30, Ralph E. Capen a crit :
>
> I have been doing some rearranging of the wiring and circuit protection in my
6A.
>
> I found my two fuel guages ( Vans IE-VFL-15) wired directly to the starter power
input on the key switch (I must have been lazy that day). The documentation
calls for 18AWG wiring for this circuit - but does not specify circuit protection
sizing. I am thinking a 3 amp fuse should allow sufficient current and
provide protection for the wiring.
>
Ralph,
I'm not sure which wire is 18 AWG in your circuit (starter input ? fuel
pump wire ?), but this table maybe of some use :
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_fil_section.php
It shows current ratings against wire gauge.
FWIW,
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z13/8 Testimoney |
At 10:03 2015-04-01, you wrote:
>RV-8A with nearly 500 hours over 4 years flying
>out of Inyokern, CA (IYK). Never any electrical
>issues. Minding my business near Bakersfield
>yesterday setting up for practice approaches
>when I noticed the flashing low voltage light.
>No degrading of capabilities, but voltage going
>down. Flipped two switches Aux Alt ON and END
>Bus ON and electrons started flowing. Turned off
>strobes and headed home with GPS, AFS 4500, IFF,
>SL30 and Tru Trak ADI (my backup attitude indicator) working.
>
>Then noticed Alt Field CB popped. After clearing
>mountains, reset CB and it stayed reset. Went back to main alt power.
>
>Now trying to figure out what happened. Removed
>cowl all wires and connections intact. Greg at
>B&C most helpful so will go through LR3C-14 trouble shooting steps later today.
>
>Anyone on the list have any words of wisdom
>about popped Alt Field CBs that stay reset? Now
>seems like a temporary intermittent gremlin thats one step ahead of me.
>
>I spent a lot of time during electrical system
>design deciding on Bobs Z13/8 architecture with
>all B&C components. My one data point: works as
>advertised and is more than adequate for
>continued flight after the main alternator goes south.
The main reason that crowbar ov protection is PAIRED
with a crew resetable circuit breaker is to accommodate
the rare but NOT ZERO possibility of a nuisance trip.
In 30 years experience with crowbar ovm in OBAM aircraft
I have heard of perhaps a dozen nuisance trip events, one
of which I helped resolve on a Europa in the shop of
a fellow Beechcrafter. That resolution prompted a design
change based on new knowledge of potential antagonists
to the existing design.
The fact that your breaker stayed in after reset is
a good thing that suggests high probability of a nuisance
trip . . . for reasons that may never be known. Before
you start disassembling the airplane, let's see if the
condition repeats.
The fact that it did not immediately repeat suggests
more of a trip calibration drift than of anything
wrong with the system. It's GOOD to be concerned . . .
it's an abnormal event. But data you have in hand
right now does not ratchet the level of concern up
to the point of crawling over the airplane for hours
chasing the ever elusive electro-snipe . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Dimmers driving displays... |
I have a single dimmer that drives my post lights and two new displays (an EI CGR-30P
and a Aerospace Logic fuel gauge. Both units dim nicely with the dimmer,
but during the day when I turn the dimmer off, both devices go to full dim.
Is there a simple circuit that can sense low voltage (below anywhere from 4 to
.5 volts) and switch an output to 12 volts. The panel lights would remain as
connected to the dimmer, the two instruments would be connected via this circuit
allowing them to go to full bright when the dimmer is off.
I anticipate a simple 4 wire device (12V, ground, dimmer in, instrument dimmer
out) and a transistor or two and a couple of resistors...
How are others solving this problem? I am trying to avoid having 17 dimmer controls.
Thoughts?
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440189#440189
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john Snapp <matronics.list(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
I had a similar issue. I used a simp,e approach. I took a wire off the switched
side of the switch that drove the dimmer and ran that to the coil of a 12v
SPDT relay. The common contact on the relay was connected to the instruments.
The NC contact was connected to 12v power and the NO contact was connected to
the dimmer output. When the dimmer is energized, the instruments lighting circuit
is supplied by the dimmer but when powers removed from the input to the
dimmer, the relay opens and the instruments lighting circuit gets 12v. I did
this for the LCD backlighting of several of my EI instruments.
John Snapp
+1.303.810.0600
( excuse the typos. This email was sent from a mobile device!)
> On Apr 2, 2015, at 6:45 AM, andymeyer <ameyer@mil-amax.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have a single dimmer that drives my post lights and two new displays (an EI
CGR-30P and a Aerospace Logic fuel gauge. Both units dim nicely with the dimmer,
but during the day when I turn the dimmer off, both devices go to full dim.
Is there a simple circuit that can sense low voltage (below anywhere from 4
to .5 volts) and switch an output to 12 volts. The panel lights would remain as
connected to the dimmer, the two instruments would be connected via this circuit
allowing them to go to full bright when the dimmer is off.
>
> I anticipate a simple 4 wire device (12V, ground, dimmer in, instrument dimmer
out) and a transistor or two and a couple of resistors...
>
> How are others solving this problem? I am trying to avoid having 17 dimmer controls.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440189#440189
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Single fuse for two fuel guages only |
At 13:30 2015-04-01, you wrote:
>
>
>I have been doing some rearranging of the wiring and circuit
>protection in my 6A.
>
>I found my two fuel guages ( Vans IE-VFL-15) wired directly to the
>starter power input on the key switch (I must have been lazy that
>day). The documentation calls for 18AWG wiring for this circuit -
>but does not specify circuit protection sizing. I am thinking a 3
>amp fuse should allow sufficient current and provide protection for the wiring.
Your perception is not in error. But why change it?
It's only a venial sin to power multiple appliances
from a single protected tap on the bus. The rule of
thumb calls for evaluating risks to the aircraft or
occupants should ALL appliances un the group become
unavailable due to single fault.
You need to make your own assessment but I suggest
that your time-of-flight is the back-up predictor
of fuel quantity. Given the exceedingly rare event
that ANY protective device will be called upon to
operate over the lifetime of your airplane, it's
an exceedingly low-risk condition to leave it wired
as-is.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
At 08:45 2015-04-02, you wrote:
I have a single dimmer that drives my post lights and two new
displays (an EI CGR-30P and a Aerospace Logic fuel gauge. Both units
dim nicely with the dimmer, but during the day when I turn the dimmer
off, both devices go to full dim. Is there a simple circuit that can
sense low voltage (below anywhere from 4 to .5 volts) and switch an
output to 12 volts. The panel lights would remain as connected to the
dimmer, the two instruments would be connected via this circuit
allowing them to go to full bright when the dimmer is off.
I anticipate a simple 4 wire device (12V, ground, dimmer in,
instrument dimmer out) and a transistor or two and a couple of resistors...
How are others solving this problem? I am trying to avoid having 17
dimmer controls.
Thoughts?
The short answer is, yes. I would beg your indulgence
with a suggestion that we make this a thought problem
for the silicon and solder-slingers on the List. How
about it folks? What's the lowest parts count solution
to this design goal . . . hint, there may be more than
one . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Single fuse for two fuel guages only |
Bob,
As always, the common-sense of your insight returns me to reality!
Yes, time-of-flight and a fuel-flow meter are also available....
in the event of an in-flight failure.
Additionally, if the circuit had failed 'post-previous-flight',
I would not be able to start the engine for an upcoming flight.
Thanks,
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>Sent: Apr 2, 2015 11:28 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Single fuse for two fuel guages only
>
>
>At 13:30 2015-04-01, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>I have been doing some rearranging of the wiring and circuit
>>protection in my 6A.
>>
>>I found my two fuel guages ( Vans IE-VFL-15) wired directly to the
>>starter power input on the key switch (I must have been lazy that
>>day). The documentation calls for 18AWG wiring for this circuit -
>>but does not specify circuit protection sizing. I am thinking a 3
>>amp fuse should allow sufficient current and provide protection for the wiring.
>
> Your perception is not in error. But why change it?
> It's only a venial sin to power multiple appliances
> from a single protected tap on the bus. The rule of
> thumb calls for evaluating risks to the aircraft or
> occupants should ALL appliances un the group become
> unavailable due to single fault.
>
> You need to make your own assessment but I suggest
> that your time-of-flight is the back-up predictor
> of fuel quantity. Given the exceedingly rare event
> that ANY protective device will be called upon to
> operate over the lifetime of your airplane, it's
> an exceedingly low-risk condition to leave it wired
> as-is.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
| Subject: | Dimmers driving displays |
>> What's the lowest parts count solution to this design goal
A switch on the back of the dimmer pot... when you go full dim, it switches
bus voltage to the electronic displays.
Can't take credit; Cessna thought of it first! :-)
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gerald Champagne <gerald.champagne(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
The same thing can be done by using a DPDT power switch instead of an SPST
switch and relay. Just wire the second pole of the switch to do the same
thing your SPDT relay is doing. The center contact goes to the devices
that should be bright when the lights are off. The "on" side goes to the
dimmer output, and the "off" side goes to the dimmer power input.
Gerald
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 10:24 AM, john Snapp
wrote:
> matronics.list(at)gmail.com>
>
> I had a similar issue. I used a simp,e approach. I took a wire off the
> switched side of the switch that drove the dimmer and ran that to the coil
> of a 12v SPDT relay. The common contact on the relay was connected to the
> instruments. The NC contact was connected to 12v power and the NO contact
> was connected to the dimmer output. When the dimmer is energized, the
> instruments lighting circuit is supplied by the dimmer but when powers
> removed from the input to the dimmer, the relay opens and the instruments
> lighting circuit gets 12v. I did this for the LCD backlighting of several
> of my EI instruments.
>
> John Snapp
>
> +1.303.810.0600
> ( excuse the typos. This email was sent from a mobile device!)
>
> > On Apr 2, 2015, at 6:45 AM, andymeyer <ameyer@mil-amax.com> wrote:
> >
> ameyer@mil-amax.com>
> >
> > I have a single dimmer that drives my post lights and two new displays
> (an EI CGR-30P and a Aerospace Logic fuel gauge. Both units dim nicely with
> the dimmer, but during the day when I turn the dimmer off, both devices go
> to full dim. Is there a simple circuit that can sense low voltage (below
> anywhere from 4 to .5 volts) and switch an output to 12 volts. The panel
> lights would remain as connected to the dimmer, the two instruments would
> be connected via this circuit allowing them to go to full bright when the
> dimmer is off.
> >
> > I anticipate a simple 4 wire device (12V, ground, dimmer in, instrument
> dimmer out) and a transistor or two and a couple of resistors...
> >
> > How are others solving this problem? I am trying to avoid having 17
> dimmer controls.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440189#440189
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
No switched side of that dimmer knob... It's simply a pot - it may go open when
all of the way dim - not sure... I'd rather not change out the pot - something
simple and inline to the two instruments would be ideal. I thought about a low
pull-in voltage relay, but pull-in would have to be at a couple of volts and
very low current and rated for continuous duty at 14 volts, and still very low
current.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440206#440206
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
Is there a significant issue with running your panel lights during the day?
Daniel Hooper
> On Apr 2, 2015, at 12:55 PM, andymeyer <ameyer@mil-amax.com> wrote:
>
>
> No switched side of that dimmer knob... It's simply a pot - it may go open when
all of the way dim - not sure... I'd rather not change out the pot - something
simple and inline to the two instruments would be ideal. I thought about a
low pull-in voltage relay, but pull-in would have to be at a couple of volts
and very low current and rated for continuous duty at 14 volts, and still very
low current.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440206#440206
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re:_AeroElectric-List:_Re:_Dimmers_driving_displays...? |
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DQpSb2dlcg=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BMA Powerboard with Z19RB |
>>Eagerly looking forward to words of wisdom from this enlightened group.
>
> You've already been offered some such words . . . I'm packing
> up for a day-trip to Wichita to visit a customer but I'll
> be back this evening to address your questions in more detail.
> In the mean time there are no doubt others who would like
> to share ideas and reasons . . .
BMA has a rich history in amateur built aviation that
offers many reasons to ponder the wisdom of going
airborne with any of their products.
As much as I gunch and groan about the floobydust
and hoop-jumping forced upon TC aviation, there are
fundamentals that go to design, verification and system
reliability that have nothing to do with regulations.
They have everything to do with simple ideas in physics
and reduction in risk by capitalizing on lessons learned
and putting lots of clear heads onto good critical
review.
In spite of offers from myself and others for free
assists in such matters, the BMA design and marketing
philosophy plodded on to a predictable outcome. Perhaps
good fortune smiled down on OBAM aviation with
respect to BMA. I'm aware of no instances of injury
or damage to an aircraft due to failure of BMA
products to perform. At the same time, I'm equally
unaware of any pilot who claims to trust his BMA
fitted airplane enough to go bore precision holes in clouds.
You can read my best efforts to engage Mr. Richter
in the simple ideas and proven practices for wiring
an airplane here . . .
http://tinyurl.com/omnuypr
I had no opportunity to engage him in conversation
about software performance and robustness testing,
failure mode effects analysis or partitioning
functionality for independence, much less fabrication
for survival in the aviation environment. Based on
what I learned in the exchange above . . . well . . .
It's your choice my friend but I would look long
and hard for any success stories about the hardware
you are contemplating for your airplane.
Personally, I'd rather launch into clouds with
needle, ball, airspeed, hand held gps and a wing
leveler (or two) than with the BMA suite of
products.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays |
At 10:57 2015-04-02, you wrote:
>
> >> What's the lowest parts count solution to this design goal
>
>A switch on the back of the dimmer pot... when you go full dim, it switches
>bus voltage to the electronic displays.
>
>Can't take credit; Cessna thought of it first!
Ahhh . . . that recalls the switch on the
back of the dimmer pot in some Pipers
that automatically turned on position lights
when the panel lights were brought up.
Nice take. The switchs at the CCW end of
pots tend to go open at max travel, so
you still have to add some electro-beans
to invert the sense.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays |
| From: | GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com> |
>
>
> How are others solving this problem? I am trying to avoid having 17 dimmer
> controls.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Andy
>
See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/egpavr.htm
IIRC, the incorporated switch is SPDT, so the OFF function can be made an
ON function.
Check with Eric; I'm surprised he's not chimed in yet...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays |
Trutrak did this automatically as my ADI goes full bright when the
pre-existing dimmer circuit is off which seems to be what you want in
order to keep the post lights off during the day.
There are ways to trigger a 12 volt relay when the dimmer voltage is
minimum. I'd probably look at using an even cheaper Mosfet transistor
instead of the relay but a relay is simple. You could feed the coil
with a comparator circuit that turns on at any dimmer voltage you wish.
An ic comparator (or any op amp) could do that with a couple of
resistors added. Or a transistor and zener diode setup somewhat similar
to what triggers the OVM module would also do it. A couple of dollars
plus a relay and shipping if you don't have parts on hand but packaging
it is more awkward than just adding another switch. Stick it in a
plastic pill box and tie it to existing wires or something would work.
I actually like lots of dimmer controls to allow precise harmonizing
various intensities. Some commercial aircraft do indeed have 17 dimmer
controls. Switches are dead simple to troubleshoot and maintain.
Ken
On 03/04/2015 9:42 AM, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote:
>
>
> How are others solving this problem? I am trying to avoid having
> 17 dimmer controls.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Andy
>
>
> See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/egpavr.htm
>
> IIRC, the incorporated switch is SPDT, so the OFF function can be made
> an ON function.
>
> Check with Eric; I'm surprised he's not chimed in yet...
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john Snapp <matronics.list(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
I simply used the relay and connected the relay to my existing nav light switch
to switch the relay. That way I did not have to add any extra switches,
John Snapp
+1.303.810.0600
( excuse the typos. This email was sent from a mobile device!)
> On Apr 2, 2015, at 10:55 AM, andymeyer <ameyer@mil-amax.com> wrote:
>
>
> No switched side of that dimmer knob... It's simply a pot - it may go open when
all of the way dim - not sure... I'd rather not change out the pot - something
simple and inline to the two instruments would be ideal. I thought about a
low pull-in voltage relay, but pull-in would have to be at a couple of volts
and very low current and rated for continuous duty at 14 volts, and still very
low current.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440206#440206
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
How about this circuit?
http://tinyurl.com/Low-Voltage-Indicator
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440256#440256
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Major disruptions in the flow of electrons . . . |
Two nights ago, Wichita and surrounds were hit
by a storm that was apparently limited to straight
line winds . . . no tornadic activity . . . but
wind is wind . . . whether it spins or just blows.
http://tinyurl.com/ooy9by8
Our home in Wichita occupied by our son, daughter-
in-law and 5 kids was one of 30,000 homes in area
deprived of power . . . including the home of my
father-in-law right behind our house. The damage
is such that power is not expected to be restored
until Monday.
We drove two generators up to Wichita and spent
some time yesterday afternoon getting the two
houses lit up and refrigerators refrigerating.
My son also has a 100gal salt-water tank
that is easily stressed when deprived of power
to maintain temperature and circulation. It's
no small task to create a bit of ocean in your
living room. At particular risk was a lot
of corals that grow in his tank . . .
So we were pleased to see the numbers coming
back into good order as the little hummer on
the patio shouldered the loads.
We had generators on hand to support the son's
shaved ice trailer that he takes to various
happenings over the summer . . . and another one
to support our own minimal needs out in the boonies.
Funny tho, this is the second time in less than
a year that we had to power up the Wichita homestead
although last year was for only 24 hours.
I've got a natural gas conversion kit for my
generator, not yet installed and plumbed. As
I was hooking Zach up yesterday I was eyeing
a gas line coming out of the house three
feet away that powers a gas grill . . . maybe
I ought to get an NG kit for Zach's machine too.
Whether it's cockpits, airframes and passengers
-OR- refrigerators, grand kids and coral micro-
reefs, it's all about FMEA . . . anticipating
probabilities of the greatest risks while striving
to have an adequate and convenient plan-B in
place.
Fly comfortably and confidently my friends . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
At 13:23 2015-04-03, you wrote:
>
>I simply used the relay and connected the relay to my existing nav
>light switch to switch the relay. That way I did not have to add
>any extra switches,
>
>John Snapp
Hmmmm . . . that seems to be the minimal parts
count solution. Any other candidates?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Major disruptions in the flow of electrons . . . |
| From: | Ronald Cox <flyboyron(at)gmail.com> |
It certainly makes the same point, in a non-aviation way. The same
analysis led us to the installation (self-installation) of an auto-starting
15KW standby generator a few years back. The cost is very low compared to
the risk, in an electrically-dependent home (several essential sump pumps
which become critical when there's lots of rain, in addition to
2 refrigerators.). And plumbed-in NG sure beats filling gasoline tanks
every couple of hours in the middle of the night, too!
When one isn't able to be physically there all the time to deal with it if
it happens, the automatic part (though nothing is 100% reliable, of course)
sure helps one sleep better when flying around the world, whether on
vacation, or working. Unlike the cockpit, where a well-informed pilot can
flip the necessary switches!
Sure doesn't hurt to have your Dad be an electrical whiz, either!
Hope all is back to normal for them soon. Our setup has saved us on a
couple of occasions, though nearly always, as it would happen, when I was
around.
Good investment, IMHO.
Ron Cox
Glasair Super II F/T just about ready to go!
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com
> >
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Major disruptions in the flow of electrons . .
> .
>
>
> Two nights ago, Wichita and surrounds were hit
> by a storm that was apparently limited to straight
> line winds . . . no tornadic activity . . . but
> wind is wind . . . whether it spins or just blows.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ooy9by8
>
> Our home in Wichita occupied by our son, daughter-
> in-law and 5 kids was one of 30,000 homes in area
> deprived of power . . . including the home of my
> father-in-law right behind our house. The damage
> is such that power is not expected to be restored
> until Monday.
>
> We drove two generators up to Wichita and spent
> some time yesterday afternoon getting the two
> houses lit up and refrigerators refrigerating.
> My son also has a 100gal salt-water tank
> that is easily stressed when deprived of power
> to maintain temperature and circulation. It's
> no small task to create a bit of ocean in your
> living room. At particular risk was a lot
> of corals that grow in his tank . . .
>
> So we were pleased to see the numbers coming
> back into good order as the little hummer on
> the patio shouldered the loads.
>
> We had generators on hand to support the son's
> shaved ice trailer that he takes to various
> happenings over the summer . . . and another one
> to support our own minimal needs out in the boonies.
>
> Funny tho, this is the second time in less than
> a year that we had to power up the Wichita homestead
> although last year was for only 24 hours.
>
> I've got a natural gas conversion kit for my
> generator, not yet installed and plumbed. As
> I was hooking Zach up yesterday I was eyeing
> a gas line coming out of the house three
> feet away that powers a gas grill . . . maybe
> I ought to get an NG kit for Zach's machine too.
>
> Whether it's cockpits, airframes and passengers
> -OR- refrigerators, grand kids and coral micro-
> reefs, it's all about FMEA . . . anticipating
> probabilities of the greatest risks while striving
> to have an adequate and convenient plan-B in
> place.
>
> Fly comfortably and confidently my friends . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Major disruptions in the flow of electrons . |
. .
>
>Hope all is back to normal for them soon. Our
>setup has saved us on a couple of occasions,
>though nearly always, as it would happen, when I was around.
>
>Good investment, IMHO.
Agreed. They're still in the Endurance Mode.
Target time for having the mains back up is still
5:00 am tomorrow morning. I think I can talk Zach
through the process of replacing the meter by
phone so . . . for the moment . . . the light at the end of
the tunnel appears not to be an oncoming train.
I think Zach ran an extension over to a neighbors
house so that they could plug in their freezer overnight
to get the temps back down in the box.
I stopped by HF to pick up a 10/3 extension cord
from which to fab a generator-to-house jumper cable.
Asked about their stock of generators. She said there
was a line at the door when they opened, all stock
gone as fast as they could ring-em up. I suspect
the same for all suppliers for dozens of miles around.
Events like these portend an upcoming boom in used
generators showing up on Craigs List, garage sales,
etc. Bought a several 'lightly used' machines in that
market some years back.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greenbacks, UnLtd." <n4zq(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Briggs & Stratton Stator |
Hi Bob,
I=99m hoping you could offer your opinion on whether the
LS-1A or the LR3 Controller could handle the output from two fixed
stators ganged together in this fashion.
The application is for the Solar T62-32T turbine power plant installed
in the Helicycle chopper.
The original design called for only one stator which limits the charging
ability.
Thanks,
Angier Ames
Hamilton, MA
978-468-4565
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Engine start button |
| From: | John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
Hi Guys
I'm thinking of using this 'engine start' button (only the button, from the p
anel shown) on the RV9 - it looks more than a simple 'push to close' wiring,
am I still good to go with this item
Best regards
John
>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Racing-Car-12V-Ignition-Switch-Panel-Engine-Star
t-Push-Button-LED-Toggle-3021-/141593255100?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=i
tem20f79d9cbc
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> ----x--O--x----
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Briggs & Stratton Stator |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The LS-1A and LR3 regulators are for alternators with a field winding. If the
Briggs & Stratton alternator is a permanent magnet type (dynamo), then a permanent
magnet type regulator must be used.
http://www.bandc.biz/regulator14vhomebuilt.aspx
You might consider using two regulators, one for each stator. The aircraft loads
could be divided between the two, perhaps lighting on one and avionics on the
other. The two regulators would have a common ground, but separate main buses.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440323#440323
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Briggs & Stratton Stator |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
It is not a matter of a regulator handling the alternator output, but rather the
ability of a regulator to handle the aircraft load.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440324#440324
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine start button |
John,
I've been using one of these for the last 3 years, with the illuminated
bit used as a starter warning light.
http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/push-button-engine-start-switch
Although I think I got it cheaper from somewhere else. The one you chose
looked a bit complex.
See also this
<http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/electrical-billet-aluminium-switches>.
Regards, Peter
On 06/04/2015 14:58, John Tipton wrote:
> Hi Guys
>
> I'm thinking of using this 'engine start' button (only the button,
> from the panel shown) on the RV9 - it looks more than a simple 'push
> to close' wiring, am I still good to go with this item
>
> Best regards
>
> John
>
>>
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Racing-Car-12V-Ignition-Switch-Panel-Engine-Start-Push-Button-LED-Toggle-3021-/141593255100?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20f79d9cbc
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> ----x--O--x----
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Briggs & Stratton Stator |
At 07:49 2015-04-06, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
I'm hoping you could offer your opinion on whether the
LS-1A or the LR3 Controller could handle the output from two fixed
stators ganged together in this fashion.
The application is for the Solar T62-32T turbine power plant
installed in the Helicycle chopper.
The original design called for only one stator which limits the
charging ability.
As Joe correctly points out, the alternator controllers
you cited are for automotive style, wound-field alternators
either designed for or modified to run externally regulated.
The stators you illustrated are interesting. I'm curious as
to what the magnet-ring or rings look like to work with
dual coils.
It appears that the two stator's leads are brought
out separately . . . and further . . . offset
rotationally from each other. This offers an opportunity
to rectify them separately (2-phase) and combine the
outputs of the rectifiers for a much smoother DC
power product (the RMS ripple on rectified DC from
a 3-phase automotive machine is about 5% pk-pk. 2-phase
would be larger . . . ~15% but still less than single-
phase at 100%.
This not-quite perfect DC would then need to be
regulated with something more sophisticated than
the legacy rectifier-regulators used with PM
alternators. A switch-mode regulator would probably
fill the bill.
Have you seen any numbers on the charging rates
in amps before and after for upgrading to two stators?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine start button |
At 08:58 2015-04-06, you wrote:
Hi Guys
I'm thinking of using this 'engine start' button (only the button,
from the panel shown) on the RV9 - it looks more than a simple 'push
to close' wiring, am I still good to go with this item
Best regards
John'
It appears that this kit comes with a relay
for boosting the current handling ability
of the rather Lilliputian switch. The same
relay would be recommended for the switch
that Peter has cited. Neither device would
stand up robustly to switching loads imposed
by intermittent duty starter contactors.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine start button |
Sorry not to make that clear - this switch is used to engage a regular
starter relay.
P
On 06/04/2015 20:02, Peter Pengilly wrote:
> John,
>
> I've been using one of these for the last 3 years, with the
> illuminated bit used as a starter warning light.
>
> http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/push-button-engine-start-switch
>
> Although I think I got it cheaper from somewhere else. The one you
> chose looked a bit complex.
>
> See also this
> <http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/electrical-billet-aluminium-switches>.
>
> Regards, Peter
>
>
> On 06/04/2015 14:58, John Tipton wrote:
>> Hi Guys
>>
>> I'm thinking of using this 'engine start' button (only the button,
>> from the panel shown) on the RV9 - it looks more than a simple 'push
>> to close' wiring, am I still good to go with this item
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> John
>>
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Racing-Car-12V-Ignition-Switch-Panel-Engine-Start-Push-Button-LED-Toggle-3021-/141593255100?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20f79d9cbc
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> ----x--O--x----
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine start button |
| From: | John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
But why wouldn't it, if the light weight (Lilliputian) switch has it's own relay,
should that not be enough for the circuit (Z11 etc: 20awg 7amps) to a starter
contactor, as Peter cited he has used similar for a few years now.
John
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 6 Apr 2015, at 08:32 pm, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
>
> At 08:58 2015-04-06, you wrote:
> Hi Guys
>
> I'm thinking of using this 'engine start' button (only the button, from the panel
shown) on the RV9 - it looks more than a simple 'push to close' wiring, am
I still good to go with this item
>
> Best regards
>
> John'
>
> It appears that this kit comes with a relay
> for boosting the current handling ability
> of the rather Lilliputian switch. The same
> relay would be recommended for the switch
> that Peter has cited. Neither device would
> stand up robustly to switching loads imposed
> by intermittent duty starter contactors.
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine start button |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
My RV-12 starter contactor-coil circuit is protected by a 2 amp fuse.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440364#440364
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine start button |
At 02:07 2015-04-07, you wrote:
But why wouldn't it, if the light weight (Lilliputian) switch has
it's own relay, should that not be enough for the circuit (Z11
etc: 20awg 7amps) to a starter contactor, as Peter cited he has used
similar for a few years now.
The kit cited had a plastic cube relay with fast-ons.
I assumed it was intended to be used to buffer the
starter contactor/solenoid current thus limiting
the push-button's stresses to the 150 mA or so
drawn by the relay coil.
Peter spoke to a 'regular starter relay' which does
not paint a lucid image in my peanut butter . . .but
let's assume it's a generic intermittent-duty contactor
with a coil current on the order of 5A and capable of
significant inductive reaction. If such a contactor
is fitted with coil suppression, then it is quite possible
that a switch of this genre' would stand up to the
task for hundreds of cycles, i.e. years in an airplane
flow on average 100 hours a year.
Without having specific ratings for Peter's switch,
I have to go with the 'feel' conjured up by the
image which suggests a switch probably rated at
1A or so for tens of thousands of cycles . . .
and indeed capable of the service that Peter
cited.
Emacs!
The other switch has a curious back side
with screw-clamps. This suggests more robustness
than the switch above . . . but again . . .
no data . . . no foundation for prediction.
Emacs!
Without having one of those kits in hand, we
don't know how the relay is to be used. I would
not expect it to be required in the ignition system
but who knows?
So understand that my assertions arose more
from rules of thumb and gut feelings with roots
in my design-for-lifetime-of-airplane in a
TC world than from any assessment of hard data.
Either switch may well produce satisfactory
service as control of a coil-suppressed starter
contactor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine start button |
| From: | John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
Bob
Thank you
John
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 7 Apr 2015, at 02:26 pm, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroel
ectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 02:07 2015-04-07, you wrote:
.com>
>
> But why wouldn't it, if the light weight (Lilliputian) switch has it's own
relay, should that not be enough for the circuit (Z11 etc: 20awg 7amps) to
a starter contactor, as Peter cited he has used similar for a few years now
.
>
>
> The kit cited had a plastic cube relay with fast-ons.
> I assumed it was intended to be used to buffer the
> starter contactor/solenoid current thus limiting
> the push-button's stresses to the 150 mA or so
> drawn by the relay coil.
>
> Peter spoke to a 'regular starter relay' which does
> not paint a lucid image in my peanut butter . . .but
> let's assume it's a generic intermittent-duty contactor
> with a coil current on the order of 5A and capable of
> significant inductive reaction. If such a contactor
> is fitted with coil suppression, then it is quite possible
> that a switch of this genre' would stand up to the
> task for hundreds of cycles, i.e. years in an airplane
> flow on average 100 hours a year.
>
> Without having specific ratings for Peter's switch,
> I have to go with the 'feel' conjured up by the
> image which suggests a switch probably rated at
> 1A or so for tens of thousands of cycles . . .
> and indeed capable of the service that Peter
> cited.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The other switch has a curious back side
> with screw-clamps. This suggests more robustness
> than the switch above . . . but again . . .
> no data . . . no foundation for prediction.
>
>
>
> Without having one of those kits in hand, we
> don't know how the relay is to be used. I would
> not expect it to be required in the ignition system
> but who knows?
>
> So understand that my assertions arose more
> from rules of thumb and gut feelings with roots
> in my design-for-lifetime-of-airplane in a
> TC world than from any assessment of hard data.
>
> Either switch may well produce satisfactory
> service as control of a coil-suppressed starter
> contactor.
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dennis A Glaeser <dennis.glaeser(at)gm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine start button |
I have a large red "Engine Start" button from a sports car (Mazda I think,
but not sure anymore). The switch itself is a low load device, so it activ
ates a Bosch (cube) relay which actually powers the solenoid on the starter
. My engine is a Subaru, so all the automotive components are right at hom
e!
This system has been operating flawlessly for 7 years and 400 hours now.
I've attached a picture (during construction), not sure if it will come thr
ough...
Dennis Glaeser
RV7A
Nothing in this message is intended to constitute an electronic signature u
nless a specific statement to the contrary is included in this message.
Confidentiality Note: This message is intended only for the person or entit
y to which it is addressed. It may contain confidential and/or privileged m
aterial. Any review, transmission, dissemination or other use, or taking of
any action in reliance upon this message by persons or entities other than
the intended recipient is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received
this message in error, please contact the sender and delete it from your co
mputer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
I spend a lot of time on the road these days . . . useful for
what I call "asphalt design time". Here's yet another option for
slaying Andy's dimming dragon . . .
Few pieces of silicon have enjoyed so long and rich a history
in electronics as the 555 timer. I remember seeing the data
sheets on this device from Signetics . . . a sales
rep dropped it off with several others at my first TC aviation
design job at Electro-Mech about 1975 . . .
I won't go into details of its features here but suffice it to
say that this device might fit into yet one more application that
Mr. Camenzind probably never imagined.
http://tinyurl.com/yb23fes
In the schematic below, we see how the 555's two comparators
biased at 1/3 and 2/3 of supply voltage can be used to provide
functional logic that goes to the task at hand.
Emacs!
Wired as shown, dimmer output voltage sample is applied
to the two comparators on pins 2 and 6. If the dimmer
output goes lower than 4v, pin 3 goes HI and turns
the two transistors ON thus applying full bus voltage
to the two instruments needing special attention. If the
dimmer output is cranked up to more than 8 volts, the
555 output goes LO and turns both transistors off. Under
this condition, dimmer output has control over the
displays on the two instruments. It remains in this
condition until dimmer output is dialed down below 4
volts whereupon, the 555 'flips' to the daytime
lighting condition.
This circuit could be spider-webbed into the back
shell of a D-sub connector . . . not unlike the
relay packaging project we discussed here on the List
last week.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Shutting an Alternator off |
Some Maules have a placard in the aircraft that say not to shut the alternator
off in flight except in case of emergency. Any idea why this is so? Can shutting
an alternator down in fight cause damage to the electrical system?
Thanks
Justin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shutting an Alternator off |
At 12:58 2015-04-07, you wrote:
>
>
>Some Maules have a placard in the aircraft that say not to shut the
>alternator off in flight except in case of emergency. Any idea why
>this is so? Can shutting an alternator down in fight cause damage
>to the electrical system?
I've spent hundreds of hours in airplanes and on
test stands flipping switches and cranking knobs
on various combinations of engine driven power sources,
batteries and electrical loads. Not once have I
had any worries about turning the alternator on/off
while in operation.
Some years ago, a common aviation hangar-myth migrated
onto the List: "Turning an alternator on/off while
in service (1) subjects the alternator or engine drive
pads to deleterious stresses or (2) generates radio
killing transients on the bus."
This myth persists in many factions of the industry
including notions that (a) avionics master switches
erect a good and useful firewall against damage to
radios, (b) a dead battery paralleled with a charged
battery will discharge the good battery, (c) and
numerous others.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine start button |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
Innovative and ubiquitous parts for sure.
If 150 mA output is enough, a LM723 would do it without any transistors.
Ken
On 07/04/2015 12:19 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> I spend a lot of time on the road these days . . . useful for
> what I call "asphalt design time". Here's yet another option for
> slaying Andy's dimming dragon . . .
>
> Few pieces of silicon have enjoyed so long and rich a history
> in electronics as the 555 timer. I remember seeing the data
> sheets on this device from Signetics . . . a sales
> rep dropped it off with several others at my first TC aviation
> design job at Electro-Mech about 1975 . . .
>
> I won't go into details of its features here but suffice it to
> say that this device might fit into yet one more application that
> Mr. Camenzind probably never imagined.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yb23fes
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/yb23fes>In the schematic below, we see how the
> 555's two comparators
> biased at 1/3 and 2/3 of supply voltage can be used to provide
> functional logic that goes to the task at hand.
>
> Emacs!
>
> Wired as shown, dimmer output voltage sample is applied
> to the two comparators on pins 2 and 6. If the dimmer
> output goes lower than 4v, pin 3 goes HI and turns
> the two transistors ON thus applying full bus voltage
> to the two instruments needing special attention. If the
> dimmer output is cranked up to more than 8 volts, the
> 555 output goes LO and turns both transistors off. Under
> this condition, dimmer output has control over the
> displays on the two instruments. It remains in this
> condition until dimmer output is dialed down below 4
> volts whereupon, the 555 'flips' to the daytime
> lighting condition.
>
> This circuit could be spider-webbed into the back
> shell of a D-sub connector . . . not unlike the
> relay packaging project we discussed here on the List
> last week.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
At 09:01 2015-04-08, you wrote:
>
>Innovative and ubiquitous parts for sure.
>If 150 mA output is enough, a LM723 would do it without any transistors.
>Ken
That one doesn't 'pop out' at me. Can you share
a sketch?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
Can something as simple as this be done... The diode in your circuit got me thinking.
If the output of the inverter is high impedance when it's output is low, the voltage
from the dimmer would cross the diode (with a diode drop - not a problem
- just calibrate the brightness accordingly.) When the voltage on the dimmer
dropped low enough that the inverter went to high output, the diode would block
that voltage from the "dimmed power to other appliances" yet apply that voltage
to the CGR-30P and Aerospace Logic...
It's been too long since circuits class - way too long.
I appreciate the input and thoughts!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440464#440464
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/untitled_165.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers driving displays... |
On 08/04/2015 11:04 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> At 09:01 2015-04-08, you wrote:
>>
>> Innovative and ubiquitous parts for sure.
>> If 150 mA output is enough, a LM723 would do it without any transistors.
>> Ken
>
> That one doesn't 'pop out' at me. Can you share
> a sketch?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
A sketch you say...
The LM723 is an older but versatile voltage regulator (currently $0.75
from digi-key).
The 14 pin DIP has a 7 volt reference, a comparator, and a 150 mA
capable transistor in it. All good things for this type of circuit.
However sketching it out reminds me that its output is a NPN transistor
so the diode and 2N3906 from your 555 sketch would still be necessary
which negates any meaningful parts reduction. Also forgot that it has a
5volt differential comparator input limitation that complicates things
just enough for me to loose interest in using it for this application.
The equivalent circuit on page 2 of the Texas Instruments data sheet
illustrates the part nicely.
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm723.pdf
I have used this part for outdoor equipment which is why it came to
mind. I'll likely use another one on a Briggs lawn tractor that has no
regulation. The tractor is half wave DC and only rated at 3 amps but it
ramps up to at least 17 volts and tends to kill batteries. Several of
the discrete parts in the example circuits such as C1 and R3 are not
usually required. Since it can tolerate 40 volts, it doesn not really
need any input power conditioning. The current sense resistor (Rsc) and
connections to the Current Sense (CS) or limit (CL) pins are not
required. The plastic DIP version only has commercial temperature
ratings but it has worked fine for me for many years winter and summer
on outside equipment.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Carling Technologies sells a boffo charger for USB powered devices. 12/24V input.
Worth a look.
https://www.carlingtech.com/controls-v-charger?abm_pos=2&abm_adtype=boombox_ad&abm_type=image&abm_adcategory=paid
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440499#440499
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
Pretty "boffo" ...
Looks as thought it was just released in March. Any idea how much $?
-Jeff
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 8:28 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote:
net>
Carling Technologies sells a boffo charger for USB powered devices. 12/24V
input. Worth a look.
https://www.carlingtech.com/controls-v-charger?abm_pos=2&abm_adtype=boo
mbox_ad&abm_type=image&abm_adcategory=paid
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440499#440499
-
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John <rv6a(at)rogers.com> |
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Carling-Technologies/V-USB-24-G11-1BB1/?
qs=%2fha2pyFaduiuWIyF7eXWC5mA2RXT2%2fejv7WHWaq9hVmcvfrfzSKbdQ%3d%3d
> On Apr 9, 2015, at 11:50 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
>
> Pretty "boffo" ...
>
> Looks as thought it was just released in March. Any idea how much $?
>
> -Jeff
>
>
>
> On Thursday, April 9, 2015 8:28 AM, Eric M. Jones wr
ote:
>
>
net>
>
> Carling Technologies sells a boffo charger for USB powered devices. 12/24V
input. Worth a look.
>
> https://www.carlingtech.com/controls-v-charger?abm_pos=2&abm_adtype=bo
ombox_ad&abm_type=image&abm_adcategory=paid
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440499#440499
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List<; http://forums.sp;
- List Contribution Web Site -
> _; &nb://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_bl
ank">http://www.matronics.c=================
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> |
I have found a cheap lighter socket step down converter generate noise
on radio reception in a DA40 (Garmin 430 I believe).
Via power supply or radiated unknown.
I would be interested in experience with the V-charger. The data sheet
does not say anything about antagonistic qualities.
Jan de Jong
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
| Subject: | Noiseless USB Charger |
FWIW, I tried half a dozen different chargers; each would cause squelch
to break on my GNX80 and SL30, particularly as the iPad and iPhone
approached full charge.
A friend reported that he bought the 2.1 amp dual output lighter socket
charger from Sporty's and had the same trouble.
I bought the 2.4 amp (note the number after the decimal) two port
lighter socket charger from Sporty's... I've only tested it so far on
three short flights, but so far, no noise in the radios. I'm leaving
tomorrow for Sun 'n Fun via a circuitous multi-stop route (I love
retirement!)... I'll be using this charger daily for hours at a time.
I'll let you know how it goes. But so far, very promising for not very
much money in aviation terms. Thanks Hal!
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
Very compact packaging and looks rugged... but 50 bucks (mouser.com) is a
bit dear.
On Apr 9, 2015 8:57 AM, "Jeff Luckey" wrote:
> Pretty "boffo" ...
>
> Looks as thought it was just released in March. Any idea how much $?
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> On Thursday, April 9, 2015 8:28 AM, Eric M. Jones
> wrote:
>
>
> emjones(at)charter.net>
>
> Carling Technologies sells a boffo charger for USB powered devices. 12/24V
> input. Worth a look.
>
>
> https://www.carlingtech.com/controls-v-charger?abm_pos=2&abm_adtype=boombox_ad&abm_type=image&abm_adcategory=paid
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440499#440499
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List<; http://forums.sp;
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> _; &nb://www.matronics.com/contribution"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.c==================
>
>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
On 4/10/2015 6:20 PM, Christopher Cee Stone wrote:
> Very compact packaging and looks rugged... but 50 bucks (mouser.com
> <http://mouser.com>) is a bit dear.
I'd want to know it doesn't break squelch on comm radios before
investing! :-)
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
hi all,
routing my transponder and com coax. am i likely to pick up noise running
them next to electric fuel pumps? thanks for any help.
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
http://www.alliedelec.com/carling-technologies-v-usb-24-g11-1bb1/70524982/
It's $55. Depending on who you are,it's either a deal or too pricey.
Eric
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440637#440637
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: coax routing |
At 09:06 2015-04-11, you wrote:
>hi all,
> routing my transponder and com coax. am i
>likely to pick up noise running them next to
>electric fuel pumps? thanks for any help.
> bob noffs
No
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
Virtually ALL 12 to USB charger products are
crafted with some version of the switch-mode,
buck converter design . . .
Emacs!
In recent years, the capability and sophistication
of various step-down chargers has mushroomed. You see
bins of cigar cigar lighter adapters at the
cash register of convenience stores . . . priced
from 4 to 10 dollars each.
5-pack-Dual-USB-2-Port-Universal-Car-Charger-DC-Adapter-5V-2-1A
You can buy guts-only boards for this and similar
products for as little as 50 cents per working item
on ebay. Here's a 4-port, 5 Amp adjustable model you can
buy for less than $5 mailed to your door.
Emacs!
The the technology to make these capable critters for
so little money is gargantuan automated production
volumes and minimizing parts count. These convertera
all operated at 100 KHz up . . . some as high as one
Mhz. Problem is that the waveforms are anything but
sine-wave and exceedingly rich in harmonics. They
are miniature rogue transmitters. The minimalist
parts count philosophy encourages designers to
discount if not totally ignore any potential for
interference to other systems. FCC Part 15 rules
allow extra-ordinarily antagonistic emissions with
the admonition, "Users must discontinue use of
this device if it interferes with other products
or systems".
The EASY work around is to craft a 14 to 5 volt
step down regulator with linear components. Virtually
noise free but the have to toss off a lot of heat.
They are limited to 33% efficiency by design.
Further, another feature in the USB charging
cable protocols that can produce unexpected
behaviors. For example, I used to have a cell phone
that refused to accept power from an "unauthorized
charger" . . . Turns out that SOME appliances
expect to see SOME kinds of 'communication' from
the charger in the form of treatment of the normally
dormant data lines (The OTHER two wires in the
usb cable).
So even if you build yourself a noise-free linear,
you may find that the target appliance rejects
power from your handy-work based on a lack of
proper hand-shake from the charger. I've not had
time to dig into this deeply . . . perhaps someone
on the List can enlighten us further.
Given the limited, captive market that is aviation,
commercial off the shelf USB charger products
friendly to the cockpit will be pricey . . . even
if the additional parts required are only a few
cents cost.
We had a gentleman here on the List perhaps
a year ago who was striving to bring such a product
to market. I helped him with the pennies-per-device
additions necessary to do the filtering. The design
was apparently satisfactory but I've not heard from
him since as to his experience in the marketplace.
This isn't a complex problem. The simple-ideas and
their application supporting a successful design are
well known. The problem is that folks who buy these
devices at the convenience store cash register
out-number us by about 100:1!
Even the so-called 'noise free' chargers advertised
only seem to speak to ripple voltage on the 5v output
while ignoring or being oblivious to the potential
for radio frequency emissions. Here's one article
going to great lengths to talk about quality, safety
and noise on output line with the word 'radio' appearing
only once.
http://tinyurl.com/bz4nv3y
It's a wild and wooly USB world out there but not
really difficult to thrive in.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: coax routing |
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
hot dog! thanks so much for the quick fix!.
bob noffs
On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 09:06 2015-04-11, you wrote:
>
>> hi all,
>> =C3=82 routing my transponder and com coax. am i likely to pick up noise
>> running them next to electric fuel pumps? thanks for any help.
>> =C3=82 bob noffs
>>
>
> No
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> you may find that the target appliance rejects
> power from your handy-work based on a lack of
> proper hand-shake from the charger. I've not had
> time to dig into this deeply . . . perhaps someone
> on the List can enlighten us further.
http://tinyurl.com/Eric-Page-s-Post
Message 7
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440659#440659
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <phudes(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator field circuit breaker |
I am replacing the Nippon/Denso alternator in my RV9 with one from Plane Power.
I did not build the RV.
The field CB is rated at 10 amps. Plane Power calls for a 5 amp one. Any issue
with using the existing 10 amp CB?
Pete Hudes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator field circuit breaker |
Does the alternator have an internal regulator? Does it include a crowbar
over voltage circuit? What size wire is running from the circuit breaker to
the alternator? I would think you will want to follow the install guide
closely.
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 12:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator field circuit breaker
I am replacing the Nippon/Denso alternator in my RV9 with one from Plane
Power. I did not build the RV.
The field CB is rated at 10 amps. Plane Power calls for a 5 amp one. Any
issue with using the existing 10 amp CB?
Pete Hudes
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
| From: | Pete <phudes(at)ix.netcom.com> |
Yes to both.
Pete
On Apr 11, 2015, at 1:07 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>
> Does the alternator have an internal regulator? Does it include a crowbar
> over voltage circuit? What size wire is running from the circuit breaker to
> the alternator? I would think you will want to follow the install guide
> closely.
>
> Bevan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 12:54 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator field circuit breaker
>
>
> I am replacing the Nippon/Denso alternator in my RV9 with one from Plane
> Power. I did not build the RV.
> The field CB is rated at 10 amps. Plane Power calls for a 5 amp one. Any
> issue with using the existing 10 amp CB?
>
> Pete Hudes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
| From: | Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
Plane power depends on popping the 5A CB to provide the overvoltage protection.
I would think using a larger CB will require more amps which might overheat
your field wiring before popping a 10A breaker. Just a guess.
http://plane-power.com/pdf/internally%20regulated%20experimental%20alternator%20information.pdf
-kent
> On Apr 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Pete wrote:
>
>
> Yes to both.
>
> Pete
>> On Apr 11, 2015, at 1:07 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>>
>>
>> Does the alternator have an internal regulator? Does it include a crowbar
>> over voltage circuit? What size wire is running from the circuit breaker to
>> the alternator? I would think you will want to follow the install guide
>> closely.
>>
>> Bevan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
>> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 12:54 PM
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator field circuit breaker
>>
>>
>> I am replacing the Nippon/Denso alternator in my RV9 with one from Plane
>> Power. I did not build the RV.
>> The field CB is rated at 10 amps. Plane Power calls for a 5 amp one. Any
>> issue with using the existing 10 amp CB?
>>
>> Pete Hudes
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Shield grounds |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Interesting discussion on VansAirforce
Posted by Richard
> General rule is: If you want to keep EMI inside the cable, ground both ends.
If you want to keep the EMI outside the cable, ground one end.
Reply by Louis
> This isn't really the case. Terminating the shield at one point vs. multiple
depends on the electromagnetic coupling mode you're trying to defend against
(electric or magnetic)[1]. Electric coupling is a function of the capacitance
across the insulator between the signal wire and the shield[2], while magnetic
coupling is picked up by the loop formed by the cable and the ground plane[1].
> Low frequency signals interfere via magnetic coupling, and high frequency signals
via electric[1][2]. Therefore, when trying to defend against low frequency
interference (like when you're trying to protect a low frequency audio signal),
you use single point shield termination to avoid creating a loop/current
path for magnetic coupling to occur. For high frequencies, it's important to reduce
the voltage accumulating on the shield, so multiple grounding points are
used[2].
>
> [1] Frbel, Anke. "Cable Shielding to Minimize Electromagnetic Interference."
Cotbus University of Technology, Germany.
> http://eeeic.org/proc/papers/55.pdf
>
> [2] Renner, E. NAVSO P-3181 Aircraft and Avionics Cabling E3 Design Manufacturing
Guidelines. U.S. Navy, 1992 para 4.3
> http://bmpcoe.org/library/books/navso%20p-3181/53.html
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440677#440677
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shield grounds |
At 17:55 2015-04-11, you wrote:
>
>Interesting discussion on VansAirforce
>
>Posted by Richard
>
> > General rule is: If you want to keep EMI inside the cable, ground
> both ends. If you want to keep the EMI outside the cable, ground one end.
>
"Keeping the EMI inside the cable" is the same task
as "keeping the EMI from getting INTO the cable.:"
Shielding can only break the electro-static coupling
mode of transferring EMI from antagonist to victim . . .
and shielding EITHER wire will do the task. Furhter,
the currents that flow in the shield are exceedingly
tiny . . . easy to calculate but very difficult to
measure. Hence, the pig-tail that brings a shield to
chassis ground COULD be a 40 AWG wire without degrading
the shield's performance.
Both of the documents cited use the term "EMI"
and "shielded cable" but the discussions and
energy propagation models immediately jump into
the realm of transmission lines and frequencies
of interest of a Mhz and up . . .
Almost NONE of what is discussed in those papers
applies to why wires may be shielded in light
aircraft navigation and audio systems. If we
were designing for resistance to nuclear EMP
then the electro-magnetic coupling modes would
have some significance . . . but understand
also that the appliance designs and system integration
problems go wAAAAYYyyyy beyond any fussing with
shielded wires.
I don't find much to argue with in those documents
except that they don't apply to what we do. As
cited many times in the past . . . follow the
installation manual's instructions first. If
there are doubts, determine IF the shield conductor
is ALSO part of a signal/power path. If so
attach both ends. If not, attach one end only.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The crowbar over-voltage circuit could be damaged by excessive current allowed
by a 10 amp breaker. Use a 5 amp breaker.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440681#440681
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | speedy11(at)aol.com |
Interesting to hear the squelch issues with cig lighter outlet USB chargers. I
have two that I have used from Daytona Beach to Reno and back without any squelch
issues. It is the Energizer model #PC-1CA. I use one for iPad and one
for Stratus.
Stan Sutterfield
Reno Race 84
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 22:35 2015-04-11, you wrote:
>Interesting to hear the squelch issues with cig lighter outlet USB
>chargers. I have two that I have used from Daytona Beach to Reno
>and back without any squelch issues. It is the Energizer
>model #PC-1CA. I use one for iPad and one for Stratus.
>Stan Sutterfield
>Reno Race 84
There are chargers . . . then there are CHARGERS.
Small variances in their design and construction
can influence where any antagonistic
behaviors are noted. Unless the device is
designed to suppress the full spectrum of
input frequencies used by potential victims,
it can emit antagonistic energies in little
pockets located anywhere on the spectrum.
So it's entirely possible to find devices that
don't bother YOUR radios on the frequencies
you use . . .while still being a nuisance
to somebody else.
When qualifying to DO160, and depending on
the criticality level of that qualification,
a device is allowed produce greater, potentially
annoying energies outside the spectrum of 'aviation
interests'. As you can see below, the limit lines
for allowed emissions are reduced over frequency
ranges where important airplane business takes place, and
relaxed elsewhere.
Emacs!
Given that no, commercial off the shelf USB power
adapter will have been so critically evaluated, its
possible to have one that throws tomatoes at ATC
but not Ground Control . . . etc. etc. Even
multiple examples of the same product may demonstrate
different behaviors.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> |
There's this:
http://www.charge4.co.uk/
Not quite for free though.
Jan de Jong
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
Yes: nice quality items, but for us this side of the pond expensive, starting at
99.00 that's about $150.00
John
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 12 Apr 2015, at 07:30 pm, Jan de Jong wrote:
>
>
> There's this:
> http://www.charge4.co.uk/
>
> Not quite for free though.
> Jan de Jong
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator field circuit breaker |
My chief engineer always reminds me that the CB is protect the wire not the
item the wire leads to. If Plan Power says 5 amps, then I would change to 5
amps and double check the wire to make sure it is adequate to handle 5 amps.
Rene'
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 1:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator field circuit breaker
I am replacing the Nippon/Denso alternator in my RV9 with one from Plane
Power. I did not build the RV.
The field CB is rated at 10 amps. Plane Power calls for a 5 amp one. Any
issue with using the existing 10 amp CB?
Pete Hudes
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
| From: | Pete <phudes(at)ix.netcom.com> |
Thanks everyone. 5 amp CB ordered.
Pete Hudes
On Apr 12, 2015, at 1:21 PM, Rene wrote:
>
> My chief engineer always reminds me that the CB is protect the wire not the
> item the wire leads to. If Plan Power says 5 amps, then I would change to 5
> amps and double check the wire to make sure it is adequate to handle 5 amps.
>
> Rene'
> 801-721-6080
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 1:54 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator field circuit breaker
>
>
> I am replacing the Nippon/Denso alternator in my RV9 with one from Plane
> Power. I did not build the RV.
> The field CB is rated at 10 amps. Plane Power calls for a 5 amp one. Any
> issue with using the existing 10 amp CB?
>
> Pete Hudes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator field circuit breaker |
At 15:21 2015-04-12, you wrote:
>
>My chief engineer always reminds me that the CB is protect the wire not the
>item the wire leads to. If Plan Power says 5 amps, then I would change to 5
>amps and double check the wire to make sure it is adequate to handle 5 amps.
If you're replacing a 10A breaker, then it's
a pretty sure bet that the downstream wires are
good for 5A too. But this is a special case
where the breaker is indeed sized to integrate
gracefully with a downstream item . . . the
crowbar module.
Further, not just ANY 5a breaker. During the
operation of a crowbar ov protection device,
fault currents may be as high as 200A . . .
for a few tens of milliseconds.
The ENERGY dumped in this even is low but
the current can be substantial.
While the legacy, pullable mil-style breaker
Emacs!
. . . will grunt the ov trip thousands of times without
breathing hard, some 5A breakers won't make it to first
base . . .
Emacs!
This little feller burned in two on the first trip . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator field circuit breaker |
Wrote this one yesterday but it failed to post.
As a sub-note to the thread, I'll offer the following:
At 15:21 2015-04-12, you wrote:
>
>My chief engineer always reminds me that the CB is protect the wire not the
>item the wire leads to. If Plan Power says 5 amps, then I would change to 5
>amps and double check the wire to make sure it is adequate to handle 5 amps.
If you're replacing a 10A breaker, then it's
a pretty sure bet that the downstream wires are
good for 5A too. But this is a special case
where the breaker is indeed sized to integrate
gracefully with a downstream item . . . the
crowbar module.
Further, not just ANY 5a breaker. During the
operation of a crowbar ov protection device,
fault currents may be as high as 200A . . .
for a few tens of milliseconds.
The ENERGY dumped in this even is low but
the current can be substantial.
While the legacy, pullable mil-style breaker
Emacs!
. . . will grunt the ov trip thousands of times without
breathing hard, some 5A breakers won't make it to first
base . . .
Emacs!
This little feller burned in two on the first ov trip . . .
Future versions of the crowbar ov module will include a
press to test function. It's not something that should
be exercised every pre-flight (although it wouldn't hurt)
but it will negate the need for yearly calibration testing
and will serve to prove adequacy of the installed breaker.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
I already own a couple of 4 amp Klixon push-pulls (like the one in the
picture). Will 4 amp work instead of five? Also, when do you anticipate the
new OVP to be available for purchase?
On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 15:21 2015-04-12, you wrote:
>
>
> My chief engineer always reminds me that the CB is protect the wire not the
> item the wire leads to. If Plan Power says 5 amps, then I would change to
> 5
> amps and double check the wire to make sure it is adequate to handle 5
> amps.
>
>
> If you're replacing a 10A breaker, then it's
> a pretty sure bet that the downstream wires are
> good for 5A too. But this is a special case
> where the breaker is indeed sized to integrate
> gracefully with a downstream item . . . the
> crowbar module.
>
> Further, not just ANY 5a breaker. During the
> operation of a crowbar ov protection device,
> fault currents may be as high as 200A . . .
> for a few tens of milliseconds.
>
> The ENERGY dumped in this even is low but
> the current can be substantial.
>
> While the legacy, pullable mil-style breaker
> [image: Emacs!]
>
>
> . . . will grunt the ov trip thousands of times without
> breathing hard, some 5A breakers won't make it to first
> base . . .
>
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> This little feller burned in two on the first trip . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> This little feller burned in two on the first trip . . .
I bought a new circuit breaker, 693-T11-211-3, and tried it on the bench before
installing it. The breaker would not trip in the O.V. circuit. So I connected
the breaker directly to a 12 volt battery to test it. Instead of tripping,
the breaker literally smoked.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440776#440776
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "H. Marvin Haught Jr" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> |
And none of the panel mounts are in stock.
M. Haught
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 12, 2015, at 2:32 PM, John Tipton wrote:
>
>
> Yes: nice quality items, but for us this side of the pond expensive, starting
at 99.00 that's about $150.00
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> ----x--O--x----
>
>> On 12 Apr 2015, at 07:30 pm, Jan de Jong wrote:
>>
>>
>> There's this:
>> http://www.charge4.co.uk/
>>
>> Not quite for free though.
>> Jan de Jong
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> Will 4 amp work instead of five?
Probably, but it depends on the maximum current requirements of the alternator
field. Do you know what it is? The field will need more current when recharging
an almost dead battery.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440778#440778
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "H. Marvin Haught Jr" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> |
Bob..... I am beginning work on a new panel for a Piper Pacer I am building.
Primary navigation will be by a dock mounted iPad and everything will be h
ard wired. After flying for 20+ years with wires running all over the cockp
it, I am determined that there will be none of that in the new bird. Howeve
r I do need recharging capability for electronic devices and a reliable pane
l mount USB that does not emit interference. What is the solution, as the U
K source provided here does not have stock, and the unit IS pricy.
M. Haught
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 11, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroel
ectric.com> wrote:
>
>
> Virtually ALL 12 to USB charger products are
> crafted with some version of the switch-mode,
> buck converter design . . .
>
> <22018140.jpg>
> In recent years, the capability and sophistication
> of various step-down chargers has mushroomed. You see
> bins of cigar cigar lighter adapters at the
> cash register of convenience stores . . . priced
> from 4 to 10 dollars each.
>
>
>
>
>
> You can buy guts-only boards for this and similar
> products for as little as 50 cents per working item
> on ebay. Here's a 4-port, 5 Amp adjustable model you can
> buy for less than $5 mailed to your door.
>
> <2201817f.jpg>
>
>
>
> The the technology to make these capable critters for
> so little money is gargantuan automated production
> volumes and minimizing parts count. These convertera
> all operated at 100 KHz up . . . some as high as one
> Mhz. Problem is that the waveforms are anything but
> sine-wave and exceedingly rich in harmonics. They
> are miniature rogue transmitters. The minimalist
> parts count philosophy encourages designers to
> discount if not totally ignore any potential for
> interference to other systems. FCC Part 15 rules
> allow extra-ordinarily antagonistic emissions with
> the admonition, "Users must discontinue use of
> this device if it interferes with other products
> or systems".
>
> The EASY work around is to craft a 14 to 5 volt
> step down regulator with linear components. Virtually
> noise free but the have to toss off a lot of heat.
> They are limited to 33% efficiency by design.
>
> Further, another feature in the USB charging
> cable protocols that can produce unexpected
> behaviors. For example, I used to have a cell phone
> that refused to accept power from an "unauthorized
> charger" . . . Turns out that SOME appliances
> expect to see SOME kinds of 'communication' from
> the charger in the form of treatment of the normally
> dormant data lines (The OTHER two wires in the
> usb cable).
>
> So even if you build yourself a noise-free linear,
> you may find that the target appliance rejects
> power from your handy-work based on a lack of
> proper hand-shake from the charger. I've not had
> time to dig into this deeply . . . perhaps someone
> on the List can enlighten us further.
>
> Given the limited, captive market that is aviation,
> commercial off the shelf USB charger products
> friendly to the cockpit will be pricey . . . even
> if the additional parts required are only a few
> cents cost.
>
> We had a gentleman here on the List perhaps
> a year ago who was striving to bring such a product
> to market. I helped him with the pennies-per-device
> additions necessary to do the filtering. The design
> was apparently satisfactory but I've not heard from
> him since as to his experience in the marketplace.
>
> This isn't a complex problem. The simple-ideas and
> their application supporting a successful design are
> well known. The problem is that folks who buy these
> devices at the convenience store cash register
> out-number us by about 100:1!
>
> Even the so-called 'noise free' chargers advertised
> only seem to speak to ripple voltage on the 5v output
> while ignoring or being oblivious to the potential
> for radio frequency emissions. Here's one article
> going to great lengths to talk about quality, safety
> and noise on output line with the word 'radio' appearing
> only once.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bz4nv3y
>
> It's a wild and wooly USB world out there but not
> really difficult to thrive in.
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
Listers,
I've noticed that several postings about Alternator Field circuit breakers
have shown "push-to-reset" or "non-pullable" circuit breakers.
I think that "pullable" breakers like the Klixon that BobN referenced or th
e venerable Potter Brumfield, now Tyco W23 breakers are a better choice bec
ause they allow you to shut-down the alternator at will.=C2- This can be
handy for testing or in the case of a malfunctioning over-voltage module.
=C2- It is definitely worth the extra $15 for this level of flexibility &
safety.
-Jeff
On Monday, April 13, 2015 8:22 AM, user9253 wrote:
>=C2- This little feller burned in two on the first trip . . .
I bought a new circuit breaker, 693-T11-211-3, and tried it on the bench be
fore installing it.=C2- The breaker would not trip in the O.V. circuit.
=C2- So I connected the breaker directly to a 12 volt battery to test it.
=C2- Instead of tripping, the breaker literally smoked.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440776#440776
-
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
At 09:49 2015-04-13, you wrote:
>I already own a couple of 4 amp Klixon push-pulls (like the one in
>the picture). Will 4 amp work instead of five? Also, when do you
>anticipate the new OVP to be available for purchase?
Yes, the 4A will work for MOST if not all automotive
wound field alternators with CBOVP. With PM alternators,
the circuit breaker carries only control current for
a relay . . . hence . . . the breaker can be smaller
but not necessary. As a general rule, 5A breakers cost
less than the smaller sizes so 5A was selected as the
'universal' candidate for alternator control with
CBOVP.
The design, software are done . . . parts in hand.
I've got a project in the skunkwerks world of TC aircraft
that needs a fast turn around . . . OBAM play projects are
on temporary hold . . . but not long. That's the nice thing about
fast-turn requests. It couldn't drag out if we wanted it
to! Now, if we could just run TCGA certs with the same
sense of urgency . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
Unfortunately I do not know the maximum current requirements for the
alternator fields. It is a Rotax with the built in generator and auxiliary
40 amp alternator.
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 7:22 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
>
> > Will 4 amp work instead of five?
>
> Probably, but it depends on the maximum current requirements of the
> alternator field. Do you know what it is? The field will need more
> current when recharging an almost dead battery.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440778#440778
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The Rotax internal alternator does not have a field. So yes, a 4 amp circuit breaker
will work for the crowbar O.V. wired with a relay per Bob's Z-17.
And the 40 amp alternator is relatively small, so a 4 amp breaker will be adequate
for its field circuit too.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440788#440788
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neal George <ngeorge(at)continentalmotors.aero> |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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
12 to 5 volt converters at Jameco.com
SD-15A-5 $13
SKM15A-05 $25
SKA20A-05 $27
SD-25A-5 $20
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440791#440791
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
Thanks guys.
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 8:48 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
> The Rotax internal alternator does not have a field. So yes, a 4 amp
> circuit breaker will work for the crowbar O.V. wired with a relay per Bob's
> Z-17.
> And the 40 amp alternator is relatively small, so a 4 amp breaker will be
> adequate for its field circuit too.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440788#440788
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator field circuit breaker |
At 12:49 2015-04-13, you wrote:
>Thanks guys.
>
>
>On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 8:48 AM, user9253
><fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:
><fransew(at)gmail.com>
>
>The Rotax internal alternator does not have a field. So yes, a 4 amp
>circuit breaker will work for the crowbar O.V. wired with a relay
>per Bob's Z-17.
>And the 40 amp alternator is relatively small, so a 4 amp breaker
>will be adequate for its field circuit too.
An interesting data point . . . the current draw of
the field in an engine driven power source is NOT
tightly associated with the machine's output rating.
The field intensity needed to produce full output
is a function of amps times turns in the field winding.
As it turns out, you can get ANY intensity at ANY
current if you have no restraints on volume allotted
to the field winding.
I've built regulators for 600A starter generators
that draw no more current than the 100A alternator.
Generally speaking, 10A is a BIG field current draw
for any machine . . . and a 60A machine on the
front of a Lycoming can produce 20A of output at
1 amp or so of field current.
This is why the regulators found in the full family
of aviation products are all about the same size.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roger Evenson <revenson(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Do I Have a Problem? |
On a flight a couple of months ago I noticed my endurance bus voltage lower than
usual. It was showing 12.5-12.9 volts, where I usually see 12.9-13.3 volts.
Since it was time for my annual, and I have 5 years and 460 hours on the plane
(and the voltage regulator), I 'threw' on a new Standard VR166 regulator without
any diagnosis. At subsequent start-up, I noticed what looked like a healthier
13.5-13.8 volts, so I thought I guessed right, and also thought maybe my previous
13.0 volts had been a bit low for the entire 5 yrs. I've been flying!
(I get about a 0.5 voltage drop from my 4-diode bridge rectifier).
A couple of days ago, 35 minutes into a 1 hour flight, I got my very first low
voltage alarm (which is set at 12.4v). Voltage was 11.2-11.9. My GRT EIS records
engine info each second. The log showed the low voltage lasted only 6 seconds.
At 40 minutes, it tripped again, lasted 17 seconds, showed 11.2-11.6 volts.
It alarmed a third time at 54 minutes into the flight, lasted 13 seconds, and again
showed 11.2-11.9 volts.
I later checked the EIS log, and noted that each time the bus voltage went down,
the field voltage went down, and the total load ammeter also went down. Any
clues there?
I think I have an issue that deserves more diagnosis, but then again, maybe it's
just an artifact of having an EIS that just provides too much information. After
all, we're talking about only 36 seconds out of a 1 hour flight. What do
you think? And where should I start looking? I'd certainly rather investigate
now, and not wait for a total failure while away from home.
Background and a couple more questions:
Wired Figure Z-11, with the B&C OV protection module.
In addition to the externally-regulated (40A, B&C) alternator, the field wire goes
to both a sub-panel connector (per Z23 and note 8); and also to an aux input
on the EIS. (I WONDER NOW IF THIS WAS OK).
A load test on the battery showed it still 'in the green', but only barely so.
At 3.5 years old, I'm replacing it now.
Can the Crowbar OV module go bad and cause the regulator to perceive lower bus
voltage?
My Crowbar OV module ground is connected first to the Master Switch, then from
there goes to the common firewall ground tabs. I note this because I looked at
the current Z11 figure and see that there the module ground is shown going directly
to ground. But electrically, this should be the same, right?
Your help will be much appreciated.
Roger. RV-7A, Tucson.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> |
Thank you, Joe.
Look good, especially the high efficiency SK* items, but they have a
minimum output current of several hundred mA.
I would like to know what happens to the output voltage when the output
current drops below the minimums in the datasheets (device being charged
could be off).
Jan de Jong
On 4/13/2015 7:36 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> 12 to 5 volt converters at Jameco.com
> SD-15A-5 $13
> SKM15A-05 $25
> SKA20A-05 $27
> SD-25A-5 $20
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | OAT PROBE COMPATABILITY |
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
just a long shot here. does anyone know if the oat probe for a dynon
skyview is compatible with a grt mini? grt doesn't know and i wouldn't
really expect they would. i have it in an rv 12 kit and i won't be using a
skyview.
thanks for any info.
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Do I Have a Problem? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I think that the low voltage alarm set-point should be closer to 13 volts to give
a more advanced warning.
Quote from Bob's book Appendix Z note 8 paragraph (C).
> Check for increased resistance in regulator field supply wiring and components.
Breakers, switches, over-voltage relays, and connectors are all contributors
to regulator instability when their resistance ages upward a few milliohms in
resistance.
> but then again, maybe it's just an artifact of having an EIS that just provides
too much information.
Not at all, there is a problem that needs to be corrected.
> and also to an aux input on the EIS. (I WONDER NOW IF THIS WAS OK)
Definitely. The more information the better.
> Can the Crowbar OV module go bad and cause the regulator to perceive lower bus
voltage?
Highly unlikely
> But electrically, this should be the same, right?
Should be, but more connections mean more possible failure points.
I suggest you take some voltage measurements with the master switch on and the
engine off. Use the bus as a reference point for the voltmeter black lead and
measure voltage at various points between the bus and alternator field terminal.
A voltage drop indicates resistance in the circuit.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440814#440814
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OAT Probe Compatability |
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 13, 2015, at 5:43 PM, Paul Millner wrote:
>
> What color are the wires? If they're both red/white or red/yellow, likely y
es.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 13, 2015, at 4:08 PM, bob noffs wrote:
>>
>> just a long shot here. does anyone know if the oat probe for a dynon sky
view is compatible with a grt mini? grt doesn't know and i wouldn't really e
xpect they would. i have it in an rv 12 kit and i won't be using a skyview.
>> thanks for any info.
>> bob noffs
>>
>>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OAT PROBE COMPATABILITY |
I assume you are building the RV-12 as an OBAM experimental and not as
an ELSA?
For those that don't know, you can not modify from the builder's kit
during construction of ELSA. It only becomes experimental and free to
mod after airworthiness certificate and the 5 hr phase one is flown off.
On 4/13/2015 4:08 PM, bob noffs wrote:
> just a long shot here. does anyone know if the oat probe for a dynon
> skyview is compatible with a grt mini? grt doesn't know and i wouldn't
> really expect they would. i have it in an rv 12 kit and i won't be
> using a skyview.
> thanks for any info.
> bob noffs
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/2166629.pdf
I wonder what the output would be if the load were less than 300ma?
Would it refuse to turn on unless it sees a certain resistance?
Or would it turn on but the voltage would be unstable?
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440817#440817
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "H. Marvin Haught Jr" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> |
Thanks George.....will check those out.
M. Haught.
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 13, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Neal George
wrote:
>
> Marvin =C3=A2=82=AC=9C
> We use one of these in our Cherokee, have not noticed any interference =C3
=A2=82=AC=C2
>
> http://Commitlift.com
>
> Neal
>
> From: On Behalf Of H. Marvin Haught Jr
>
>
> Bob..... I am beginning work on a new panel for a Piper Pacer I am buildin
g. Primary navigation will be by a dock mounted iPad and everything will be
hard wired. After flying for 20+ years with wires running all over the coc
kpit, I am determined that there will be none of that in the new bird. Howe
ver I do need recharging capability for electronic devices and a reliable pa
nel mount USB that does not emit interference. What is the solution, as the
UK source provided here does not have stock, and the unit IS pricy.
>
> M. Haught
>
>
>
> )=C2=AD=C3=C3=9F=C2=A2{l=B97=C2=B6r=B0h=C2=AFM4=C3=93M=1Fi=C3
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=BAb=C2=A2p+r=18=C2=AFy'=C5=A1=C2=AD=C3=88C=C2=A3 =C3=A5=C2=A1=C2=A7{
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&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C25=C2=AB=C3=A2=C2=81=C2=ABh=C2=AC=07=C2
=AB I^r=C3=9A=C3=A2p=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B6=1Bm=C2=A7=C3=C3=B0=C3=83 =C5
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=B0=C3=A2r=C3=87(=C5=A1=1Bm=C2=A7=C3=C3=9F=C2=A2=C2=BB=C2=C2=B2f=C2
=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3=A2r=C3=87(=BA=C3=B6=B9=C5-=C3=8BB=C2=A2{
k=B0=C2=BB=C2=AD=C5-=B0=C3'y=C2=B4=C2=A2=C2=B5=C3=A4=C3=A1jy
2=C2=A2=C3=A7=C3=A8=C2=AF*.=C2=AE=07=C2=A7z=C2=BA.=C2=B2=C3=8B=C2=A9=C2=C5
-=C3=AD1=C2=ABm=0E=C2=B6=C2=A5=A2=C3=A2=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=90=1D=C5=A1)=C3
=9A-=C2=B7=C5=B8-=C3=9Bi=C3=C3=BC0=C3=82f=C2=AD=C2=AE
=B0=C3=A2r=C3=87(=BA=C3=B7(=C5=BE=C3=9A=C3=A2n=C3=ABb=C2=A2xm=C2=B6=C5
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&=C3=AE=C2=B6*'=C3=BD=C2=AF=C3=9B=C3=BD=C3=BA'=C2=B7=C3=BAk{=C3=B6=C3=A8w/=C3
=A1=C2=B6i
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Fisher" <paulf(at)hughes.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Do I Have a Problem? |
I would also suggest you verify nice "gas tight" connections on
everything in the charging circuit, including all of the regulator
wires, the alternator wires, and don't forget your grounds. As Joe
said, lower voltage indicates resistance in the circuit, and that is
often a lose connection. Fortunately, it is also one of the easiest
things (cheapest!) to fix!
Just a suggestion...
Paul
On 4/13/2015 7:41 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> I think that the low voltage alarm set-point should be closer to 13 volts to
give a more advanced warning.
>
> Quote from Bob's book Appendix Z note 8 paragraph (C).
>
>> Check for increased resistance in regulator field supply wiring and components.
Breakers, switches, over-voltage relays, and connectors are all contributors
to regulator instability when their resistance ages upward a few milliohms
in resistance.
>
>> but then again, maybe it's just an artifact of having an EIS that just provides
too much information.
> Not at all, there is a problem that needs to be corrected.
>
>
>> and also to an aux input on the EIS. (I WONDER NOW IF THIS WAS OK)
> Definitely. The more information the better.
>
>
>> Can the Crowbar OV module go bad and cause the regulator to perceive lower bus
voltage?
> Highly unlikely
>
>
>> But electrically, this should be the same, right?
> Should be, but more connections mean more possible failure points.
>
> I suggest you take some voltage measurements with the master switch on and the
engine off. Use the bus as a reference point for the voltmeter black lead and
measure voltage at various points between the bus and alternator field terminal.
A voltage drop indicates resistance in the circuit.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440814#440814
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OAT PROBE COMPATABILITY |
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
that's true.
bob
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> I assume you are building the RV-12 as an OBAM experimental and not as an
> ELSA?
> For those that don't know, you can not modify from the builder's kit
> during construction of ELSA. It only becomes experimental and free to mod
> after airworthiness certificate and the 5 hr phase one is flown off.
>
> On 4/13/2015 4:08 PM, bob noffs wrote:
>
>> just a long shot here. does anyone know if the oat probe for a dynon
>> skyview is compatible with a grt mini? grt doesn't know and i wouldn't
>> really expect they would. i have it in an rv 12 kit and i won't be using a
>> skyview.
>> thanks for any info.
>> bob noffs
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OAT Probe Compatability |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
It is worth a try. According to the manuals of each brand, polarity of the two
wires does not matter. If your Dynon probe has 3 wires, then use the yellow
and blue, but not the red (insulate it).
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440825#440825
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OAT Probe Compatability |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
This paper talks about thermistors.
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00685b.pdf
If the GRT and Dynon probe thermistors have different temperature coefficients,
then the displayed temperature will not be accurate. The accuracy can be checked
by exposing the probe to known temperatures like ice water and ambient air.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440833#440833
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OAT Probe Compatability |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> does anyone know if the oat probe for a dynon skyview is compatible with a grt
mini?
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=455620&postcount=3
Per Dynon Support: "Dynon's OAT's are a custom made part. It's a thermistor resistor
between ground and the sense wire, with a 10K resistor from sense to +5V.
The thermistor is 10Kohm @ 25C, with a .25% tolerance, -4.39%/C alpha @25C,
and a 3892 0C/50C beta."
When provided with the above information, GRT should be able to say if the Dynon
OAT probe is compatible with the GRT mini or not.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440835#440835
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | 14V alternator producing 28V? |
In the airplane I just bought, there is a truly *arcane* mixed 12V/24V
electrical system that I will need to rationalize in the coming months.
But here is the first question:
The plane has a 24V battery and a 24V starter. The alternator is
clearly marked "14V" however. Now with my admittedly limited
understanding of how alternators and regulators work together, I
realized that an alternator can provide pretty much any voltage that the
regulator asks for, up to maybe 150V or so.
So my questions are: How are the voltage ratings and amperage ratings
for alternators decided? And what are the issues with setting up a
declared "14V" alternator to run with a 24V regulator? Is it nothing
more than using higher capacity diodes?
Thanks,
Andy Elliott
new owner of GP-4 N729LS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Do I Have a Problem? |
On a flight a couple of months ago I noticed my endurance bus voltage
lower than usual. It was showing 12.5-12.9 volts, where I usually
see 12.9-13.3 volts. Since it was time for my annual, and I have 5
years and 460 hours on the plane (and the voltage regulator), I
'threw' on a new Standard VR166 regulator without any diagnosis. At
subsequent start-up, I noticed what looked like a healthier 13.5-13.8
volts, so I thought I guessed right, and also thought maybe my
previous 13.0 volts had been a bit low for the entire 5 yrs. I've
been flying! (I get about a 0.5 voltage drop from my 4-diode bridge
rectifier).
Expected readings . . .
A couple of days ago, 35 minutes into a 1 hour flight, I got my very
first low voltage alarm (which is set at 12.4v). Voltage was
11.2-11.9. My GRT EIS records engine info each second. The log
showed the low voltage lasted only 6 seconds. At 40 minutes, it
tripped again, lasted 17 seconds, showed 11.2-11.6 volts. It alarmed
a third time at 54 minutes into the flight, lasted 13 seconds, and
again showed 11.2-11.9 volts.
I later checked the EIS log, and noted that each time the bus voltage
went down, the field voltage went down, and the total load ammeter
also went down. Any clues there?
Wow! Symptoms quantified with numbers . . . and field voltge too?
Be still my beating heart . . .
I think I have an issue that deserves more diagnosis, but then again,
maybe it's just an artifact of having an EIS that just provides too
much information. After all, we're talking about only 36 seconds out
of a 1 hour flight. What do you think? And where should I start
looking? I'd certainly rather investigate now, and not wait for a
total failure while away from home.
You cannot have too much information. It's possible to mis-interpret
data and having lots of it might be distracting . . . but ALL
of my most challenging failure studies began with getting the
data acquision systems installed with a hope that the problem would
repeat and be captured on hard-drive. One test involved routing
a long piece of 30 conductor ribbon cable from the hell-hole on
a Beechjet, out the baggage compartment door under the seal, tapped
to the side of the fuselage and thence into the cabin through
the main door seal. Only then was I able to watch and record a
library of events surrounding a problem that would only repeat
after 30 minutes or so at 41K feet. Turned out to be a pushed
back pin in a pressure bulkhead connector. The airplane had been
out of service for several weeks at killobux per day while
un-informed studies were conducted. Only after I got them to
put the airplane in 'experimental license' and convinced the
pilots that we weren't going to suck the tape and wire into
the engines did we GET THE NUMBERS. The airplane was back
in service the next day.
Background and a couple more questions:
Wired Figure Z-11, with the B&C OV protection module.
In addition to the externally-regulated (40A, B&C) alternator, the
field wire goes to both a sub-panel connector (per Z23 and note 8);
and also to an aux input on the EIS. (I WONDER NOW IF THIS WAS OK).
A load test on the battery showed it still 'in the green', but only
barely so. At 3.5 years old, I'm replacing it now.
Can the Crowbar OV module go bad and cause the regulator to perceive
lower bus voltage?
No . . . the CBOVM will OPEN the field
breaker to effect a permanet shutdown
of the alternator. It is incapable of
intermittent operation you describe.
My Crowbar OV module ground is connected first to the Master Switch,
then from there goes to the common firewall ground tabs. I note this
because I looked at the current Z11 figure and see that there the
module ground is shown going directly to ground. But electrically,
this should be the same, right?
The CBOVM can be grounded to any sturdy
location.
If field voltage drops coincident with
drop in bus voltage, there is a DISCONNECT
between the bus and the alternator field terminal.
It can be anywhere along that path INCLUDING
a bad alternator switch, misbehaving regulator,
even a bad breaker, or perhaps a poorly crafted
joint.
This has the 'smell' of a poor connection . . .
so if you've not already done so, check the
tightness of screw terminals, tug firmly on
crimped terminal joints, the usual suspects.
Given that the gross failures of alternator
output occured after you changed the regulator,
I'd pay particular attention to the terminals
and crimps associated with that device.
The next time the symptoms manifest, cycle the
breaker and the alternator control to see if
the action immediately clears the symptoms.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 26 Msgs - 04/13/15 |
| From: | Christopher Ross <crav8r(at)gmail.com> |
Apologies if someone has already referenced this site. I haven't actually
used one of these, but they are built by an aviation enthusiast, and there
is lots(!) of USB information on the site.....
http://www.commitlift.com/usbchargers.html
Chris
Chicago
>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: USB Charger
> From: "H. Marvin Haught Jr" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>
>
>
> And none of the panel mounts are in stock.
>
> M. Haught
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Apr 12, 2015, at 2:32 PM, John Tipton
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Yes: nice quality items, but for us this side of the pond expensive,
> starting
> at 99.00 that's about $150.00
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > ----x--O--x----
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 14V alternator producing 28V? |
At 09:36 2015-04-14, you wrote:
> In the airplane I just bought, there is a truly *arcane* mixed
> 12V/24V electrical system that I will need to rationalize in the
> coming months. But here is the first question:
> The plane has a 24V battery and a 24V starter. The alternator is
> clearly marked "14V" however. Now with my admittedly limited
> understanding of how alternators and regulators work together, I
> realized that an alternator can provide pretty much any voltage
> that the regulator asks for, up to maybe 150V or so.
> So my questions are: How are the voltage ratings and amperage
> ratings for alternators decided? And what are the issues with
> setting up a declared "14V" alternator to run with a 24V
> regulator? Is it nothing more than using higher capacity diodes?
The B&C SD-20 series OBAM and TC aviation alternators
are 14v devices. Using the standard line of 14v alternator
controllers, this device produces 20+ amps at 14v.
It can be used in a 28V system but only with a special
regulator designed to limit field voltage to 15 volts.
You're correct, an alternator is capable of a wide
range of voltages depending on RPM, field voltage and
loads. It may be characterized at some voltage like 14
or 28v . . . but it's not necessarily limited to working
in the one system.
Where is your alternator mounted? Belt or pad driven?
What is the make and model number of the alternator
regulator. My suspicions are that you have a 28v
system . . . not a mixture of two systems.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Risks associated with unproven crimp tools . . |
.
| From: | "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
In this and in similar threads, Bob N. has provided excellent instructions on how
to achieve gas tightness with wire terminals, but I would like to add some
additional info.
Some types of crimp tools press a single indentation into the barrel of the wire
terminal. This may not be ideal, but generally will suffice; however there
is one mistake very commonly made with this type of tool. Most inexpensive wire
terminals are formed from flat material and have butted ends at the barrel
(wire insertion point). If the crimp tool applies an indentation over the barrel
butted ends, a poor termination is almost guaranteed.
If it is late evening and the only crimp tool that you have in your toolbox presses
a single indentation into the wire terminal, take a close look at the terminal
barrel to see if there is a seam (butted ends). If there is a seam, apply
the indentation on the opposite side - not across the seam as in the illustration...,
or use better quality wire terminals formed from tubing without butted
ends.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440873#440873
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Dual Control Stick Trim Switches Without Relays |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Joel Graber designed and posted a circuit on VansAirforce that controls a trim
servo motor using
Ray Allen G205 SPDT stick grip switches mounted on pilot and copilot control sticks.
No relays are required. A PDF version can be download:
http://tinyurl.com/Trim-Circuit
Joel Graber has used this circuit in his RV-10 for over 600hrs.
In case of a runaway trim caused by a stuck switch or suicidal copilot, the opposite
direction
button can be pressed and held until the fuse or breaker can be pulled.
I do not know if anyone else has thought of this wiring scheme before or not,
but I thought it both simple and ingenious. Even the Ray Allen company thinks
that relays
must be used for 2 control sticks.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440877#440877
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/trim_switch_circuit_682.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Risks associated with unproven crimp tools |
. . .
At 07:05 2015-04-15, you wrote:
>
>In this and in similar threads, Bob N. has provided excellent
>instructions on how to achieve gas tightness with wire terminals,
>but I would like to add some additional info.
>
>Some types of crimp tools press a single indentation into the barrel
>of the wire terminal. This may not be ideal, but generally will
>suffice; however there is one mistake very commonly made with this
>type of tool. Most inexpensive wire terminals are formed from flat
>material and have butted ends at the barrel (wire insertion
>point). If the crimp tool applies an indentation over the barrel
>butted ends, a poor termination is almost guaranteed.
>
>If it is late evening and the only crimp tool that you have in your
>toolbox presses a single indentation into the wire terminal, take a
>close look at the terminal barrel to see if there is a seam (butted
>ends). If there is a seam, apply the indentation on the opposite
>side - not across the seam as in the illustration..., or use better
>quality wire terminals formed from tubing without butted ends.
Those poke-a-hole tools are for welded
wire-grip barrel terminals for SOLID wire.
If you don't have a PIDG style crimp tool to
effect independent wire and insulation
grips then solder the terminals on and
put some heat shrink on for insulation
support.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Control Stick Trim Switches Without Relays |
I see two restrictions to utilize this circuit:
The trim switches in your control stick would have to be not commonly
switched to ground. This might be a typical case, since it would half
the number of wires inside the control stick.
The trim switches would have to be capable of handling the trim motor
spikes. Unlike a relay, since the voltage polarity is reversed, the
usual diode protection for the switch could not be used. A
bi-directional device with a clamping voltage a little higher than bus
voltage might be desirable.
I think that is why the relay method is commonly used.
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual Control Stick Trim Switches Without Relays
> From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
>
> Joel Graber designed and posted a circuit on VansAirforce that
> controls a trim
> servo motor using
> Ray Allen G205 SPDT stick grip switches mounted on pilot and copilot
> control sticks.
> No relays are required. A PDF version can be download:
> http://tinyurl.com/Trim-Circuit
> Joel Graber has used this circuit in his RV-10 for over 600hrs.
> In case of a runaway trim caused by a stuck switch or suicidal
> copilot, the opposite
> direction
> button can be pressed and held until the fuse or breaker can be pulled.
> I do not know if anyone else has thought of this wiring scheme before or not,
> but I thought it both simple and ingenious. Even the Ray Allen
> company thinks
> that relays
> must be used for 2 control sticks.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dual Control Stick Trim Switches Without Relays |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The pilot's trim switches require 4 wires, the copilot's 5.
Ray Allen documentation includes includes wring diagrams for installation without
using relays. See WIRING SCHEMATIC FOR STYLE 1
http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/instructionsG2grip.pdf
Quote from Ray Allen's pdf:
> The single pole double throw switches in the G205 stick grip are each rated for
5 amps, so they can be wired directly to your Ray Allen servos.
I could not find any mention of arc suppression in Ray Allen's documentation.
Either arc suppression is built into their servos or else the motor current is
small enough that they are not concerned with inductive voltage spikes. I know
that the elevator trim servo in my RV-12 can be operated with a 9 volt transistor
radio battery (for testing purposes). The pitch trim circuit, designed
by Van's Aircraft in the RV-12, does not include arc suppression or relays.
I think that Joel Graber's trim switch circuit is great.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440948#440948
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Control Stick Trim Switches Without |
Relays
At 09:19 2015-04-17, you wrote:
>
>The pilot's trim switches require 4 wires, the copilot's 5.
>Ray Allen documentation includes includes wring diagrams for
>installation without using relays. See WIRING SCHEMATIC FOR STYLE 1
>http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/instructionsG2grip.pdf
>Quote from Ray Allen's pdf:
> > The single pole double throw switches in the G205 stick grip are
> each rated for 5 amps, so they can be wired directly to your Ray Allen servos.
> I could not find any mention of arc suppression in Ray Allen's
> documentation. Either arc suppression is built into their servos
> or else the motor current is small enough that they are not
> concerned with inductive voltage spikes. I know that the elevator
> trim servo in my RV-12 can be operated with a 9 volt transistor
> radio battery (for testing purposes). The pitch trim circuit,
> designed by Van's Aircraft in the RV-12, does not include arc
> suppression or relays.
When driving a PM motor (i.e. the Ray-Allen actuators
or similar), no arc suppression is necessary . . .
for a couple of reasons. The first is that the
inductive component of these little motors (or
any PM motor) is small compared to that of say
a relay of the same voltage and current demand.
Secondly, the effective voltage impressed across that
inductance is a small fraction of applied (i.e.
bus) voltage. This is because the rotating armature
generates a counter emf component that opposes the
applied voltage.
For example, If you know the motor's resistance
. . . let's say 28 ohms and that it draws say 100
milliamps under full load with 14 volts applied
we can deduce the following:
0.1 amps x 28 ohms equals 2.8 volts. This means
that counter emf generated by the rotating windings
is 14 - 2.8 or 11.2 volts. While rated at 14 volts
in this particular service the motor actually RUNS on
2.8 volts!
If you study the opening circuit voltage across a
spreading set of contacts controlling a PM motor,
you will find it to be VERY UNLIKE that which
occurs across the battery master switch.
The energy in an inductor is proportional to
L x I(squared). Given that the value of current
for the trim motor is on the order of 100 mA vs.
say 700 mA for the battery contactor, all other
things being equal (inductance), then the energy
released to arc the contacts will be 7 squared or
about 1/50th smaller for the motor than for a
battery contactor. Now stack the ratio of inductances
on top of the analysis and the energy gets small still
by perhaps another factor of 10.
Ergo, one can expect satisfactory service life
from the Lilliputian switches controlling a
motor that wants to be a hydraulic pump driver
when it grows up.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DANIEL PELLETIER <pelletie1959(at)me.com> |
>
>
>>> Hi Bob,
>>> I'm wiring my Dimmer, i'm not sure that IhVe the lTest version of your Dimmer
And I can't find the old wiring schma. Is that possible to get your prcdent
version of the following
>>>
>>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Dimmers/9013_Ins.pdf
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>>
>>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Young Aviators & B-25 intercom |
At 20:48 2015-04-20, you wrote:
>Hi Bob,
>
>For a number of reasons, I had to pass the B-25 intercom project,
>and the parts that you so generously donated, off to a couple of
>other guys involved in it. I'm CC'ing this to one of them, Cliff,
>who is my friend and contact with the fella' actually doing the
>work. His name is Arron. I heard from Cliff today, that Arron built
>the mic circuit and couldn't get it to work. I've been told he's a
>pretty sharp guy, but I don't know what he did for sure. I was
>hoping that you might be willing to correspond with Cliff (& then
>possibly Arron) to help figure out what's going on. I know that
>you're very busy, and that you donate an awful lot of time to
>helping educate dummies like me, so I'm really hesitant to ask it of
>you. Thanks for everything you've done... I know that everyone
>appreciates it very much.
>
>John
No problem. In fact, you might suggest that one
or both join the List to work out the problems.
There may well be others with an interest and
ideas to contribute.
But in any case, I'm pleased to help. Have them
start by identifying the microphones they're
working with. Vintage mics come in two common
varieties, low-z dynamic and carbon. They
behave very differently.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 13:22 2015-04-21, you wrote:
>PELLETIER
>
> >
> >
> >>> Hi Bob,
> >>> I'm wiring my Dimmer, i'm not sure that
> IhVe the lTest version of your Dimmer And I
> can't find the old wiring schma. Is that
> possible to get your prcdent version of the following
> >>>
> >>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Dimmers/9013_Ins.pdf
Revision E of that document at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9013/9013-704E.pdf
Show BOTH versions. Use an ohmmeter to see if
pin 4 measures very low ohms to pin 5. If so,
you have the REV A model, if not it's the earlier
version.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Young Aviators & B-25 intercom |
| From: | "jrevens" <jrevens(at)comcast.net> |
Good news, Bob... the guy putting this together, using your circuit and donated
parts, figured out what he had done incorrectly and now it works! I just received
word that he is going to deliver the completed unit to the project tomorrow.
I just wanted to thank you publicly for your help and generosity! I'll
try to keep the list updated on this project - it looks like things are coming
together, and it will be at Oshkosh this year!
--------
John Evens
Thorp T-18 N71JE (built & flying)
Kitfox SS7 N27JE (building)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441207#441207
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Specketer <gspecketer(at)gmail.com> |
I was going to install my diode and decided to check it with my ohm meter. To
my surprise I get no continuity in any direction any combination of pins. What
is up?
Gary
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441207#441207
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith C. Borgstrom" <Keith.C.Borgstrom(at)dartmouth.edu> |
It could be that the batteries in you ohmmeter are too low to provide a high enough
voltage to forward-bias the diode. Put fresh batteries in and test it again.
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Specketer
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 8:14 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Schotke diode
-->
I was going to install my diode and decided to check it with my ohm meter. To
my surprise I get no continuity in any direction any combination of pins. What
is up?
Gary
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441207#441207
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Schotke diode |
| From: | rnjcurtis <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net> |
Sent from: YOGA TABLET 10 HD+
Gary Specketer wrote:
I was going to install my diode and decided to check it with my ohm meter. To
my surprise I get no continuity in any direction any combination of pins. What
is up?
Gary
Probably your meter! Many digital meters operate on such a small voltage, when
measuring resistance that they don't even have enough to break down the forward
junction of the diode, thus indicating a high resistance in both directions.
An analog meter is my preference for this task
you could use a 1K resistor in series with a battery and put this across the diode.
The voltage measured across the resistor will be high when the diode is
forward and low when reverse voltage is applied.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Schotke diode |
On 4/24/2015 7:49 AM, rnjcurtis wrote:
>
>
> Sent from: YOGA TABLET 10 HD+
>
> Gary Specketer wrote:
>
>
> I was going to install my diode and decided to check it with my ohm meter. To
my surprise I get no continuity in any direction any combination of pins. What
is up?
>
> Gary
>
>
> Probably your meter! Many digital meters operate on such a small voltage, when
measuring resistance that they don't even have enough to break down the forward
junction of the diode, thus indicating a high resistance in both directions.
An analog meter is my preference for this task
>
> you could use a 1K resistor in series with a battery and put this across the
diode. The voltage measured across the resistor will be high when the diode is
forward and low when reverse voltage is applied.
>
> Roger
>
Or just put the digital meter in diode test mode (look for the diode
symbol on the selector switch).
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Schotke diode |
| From: | Gary <speckter(at)comcast.net> |
Ah I wondered about that as it is a cheap harbor freight one and I think it has
a coin battery
> On Apr 24, 2015, at 8:31 AM, Keith C. Borgstrom
wrote:
>
>
> It could be that the batteries in you ohmmeter are too low to provide a high
enough voltage to forward-bias the diode. Put fresh batteries in and test it again.
>
> Keith
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Specketer
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 8:14 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Schotke diode
>
> -->
>
>
> I was going to install my diode and decided to check it with my ohm meter. To
my surprise I get no continuity in any direction any combination of pins. What
is up?
>
> Gary
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441207#441207
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Kill circuit issue - CDI |
| From: | "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net> |
Have a R503 w/DCDI. Engine runs great. Shut down, not so great. Go from Both
to Off, engine runs very rough. Return to Both, clears up. Initially suspected
(keyed) ignition switch. Clean contacts, used di-electric grease, worked
fine for a couple of cycles. Problem returned. Swapped out keyed ignition with
3 position toggles (Off-On-Momentary). Again OK for couple of cycles. Replaced
wiring from switches to connectors going to CDI Modules, leaving only the
original wires (Yellow/Black) from the CDI modules. Same issue.
Unless, I'm missing something and/or someone has a suggestion, it seems to point
to one of the modules. Will try the tests described in CPS's Part #58 (resistance
readings). Since the indicated reading between the Yellow/Black and anything
else is OPEN and I'm looking for Ground to shut down, not sure what this
test will show.
Don't look forward to replacing the CDI Modules.
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441246#441246
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kill circuit issue - CDI |
| From: | Gary Specketer <gspecketer(at)gmail.com> |
One of the things high on my list would be poor connection. Either broken wire
or faulty crimp on connector.
Gary
> On Apr 24, 2015, at 3:16 PM, George Alexander wrote:
>
>
> Have a R503 w/DCDI. Engine runs great. Shut down, not so great. Go from Both
to Off, engine runs very rough. Return to Both, clears up. Initially suspected
(keyed) ignition switch. Clean contacts, used di-electric grease, worked
fine for a couple of cycles. Problem returned. Swapped out keyed ignition
with 3 position toggles (Off-On-Momentary). Again OK for couple of cycles.
Replaced wiring from switches to connectors going to CDI Modules, leaving only
the original wires (Yellow/Black) from the CDI modules. Same issue.
> Unless, I'm missing something and/or someone has a suggestion, it seems to point
to one of the modules. Will try the tests described in CPS's Part #58 (resistance
readings). Since the indicated reading between the Yellow/Black and
anything else is OPEN and I'm looking for Ground to shut down, not sure what this
test will show.
> Don't look forward to replacing the CDI Modules.
>
> --------
> George Alexander
> FS II R503 N709FS
> http://www.oh2fly.net
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441246#441246
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <berkut13(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Active VOR antenna |
Bob,
Have you been able to assess the active VOR antenna? We=99re
about 30 days from first flight and really need a retrofit VOR antenna
solution for this bird as we discussed.
Thanks,
James
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 11:14 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Toroid beads VOR antenna vs. Active VOR
antenna
I may mount one of this things on my roof and
see how it compares with monitor antennas I
have for listening to local city, police and
fire services.
I have one HF active antenna up there already.
http://tinyurl.com/ou2ezdy
The 'antenna' part of this critter is only a
few inches long. I don't have any other HF
optimized antennas up yet to compare it to . . .
but this 'lump' on the end of a piece of coax
hears 'lots of stuff'. Given that the 'stuff'
of which VOR is made (high power, line of sight)
it seems that our little experiment has a high
probability of success for replacing the legacy
dipoles and whiskers so favored by our TC
brothers.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Active VOR antenna |
At 15:43 2015-04-24, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>Have you been able to assess the active VOR
>antenna? Were about 30 days from first
>flight and really need a retrofit VOR antenna
>solution for this bird as we discussed.
>
>Thanks,
>James
It's in the que. I've got some boards to order
for another project next week, this board can
piggyback onto the 'scrap end' . . . thanks
for rattling my cage. All the parts are on hand.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net> |
| Subject: | Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ? |
Hello all,
I have the circular type ground power connector on my Experimental aircraft
, and I am wondering if there is a cost effective Large supply unit (meanin
g lots of amps) to be able to run all the electrical whizzes in the aircraf
t while completing the build, Radios, multi-function nav screens, even the
landing lights etc.... (I have run the battery for this but it dies out aft
er about 40 minutes then I have to recharge it for several hours to work on
it again and the charge is not designed to power devices :( )
I have seen the typical aircraft ones (like below) but that seems way expen
sive..... all I need would be 14volts and I can change the cable end is the
re some Bargin out there that will turn on the computer based Devices in th
e aircraft while running of normal 110volt ac power from the hanger that I
am just missing?
[cid:image001.png(at)01D07EBC.DCFBDF30]
I guess another way to ask, is what's in the BOX ? and maybe I could build
one myself for Less ???
Thanks to all in advance
Jeff.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ? |
| From: | Gary Specketer <gspecketer(at)gmail.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ? |
JeffS,
Have you tried a good old fashion battery charger (not a maintainer).=C2-
There are lots of chargers that are capable of putting out 10-15 amps whic
h should be plenty to keep the avionics & most accessories running.=C2- (
unless you have some need to run the high-current loads for really long per
iods of time?)
I have an ancient Sears charger that can put out about 15 amps all day long
& I use it to float loads when I'm bench testing.
A quick goole search found this: Sears.com
| =C2- |
| =C2- | =C2- | =C2- | =C2- | =C2- |
| Sears.comShopYourWay Kmart MyGofer Craftsman Kenmore PartsDirect Land's E
nd Sears Home Services Sears Outlet Sell on Sears See all Sears Store Locat
or Gift Cards Gift Registry Sears Credit Card Credit Offers |
| |
| View on www.sears.com | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
| =C2- |
Others on the list may have better recommendations for chargers,
-JeffL
On Friday, April 24, 2015 5:14 PM, Gary Specketer wrote:
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ? |
a little cheaper deal here:
Schumacher 10/2 Amp Dual-Rate Manual Charger - Walmart.com
| =C2- |
| =C2- | | =C2- | =C2- | =C2- | =C2- | =C2- |
| Schumacher 10/2 Amp Dual-Rate Manual Charger - Walm...Buy Schumacher 10/2
Amp Dual-Rate Manual Charger at Walmart.com |
| |
| View on www.walmart.com | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
| =C2- |
On Friday, April 24, 2015 5:54 PM, Jeff Luckey w
rote:
JeffS,
Have you tried a good old fashion battery charger (not a maintainer).=C2-
There are lots of chargers that are capable of putting out 10-15 amps whic
h should be plenty to keep the avionics & most accessories running.=C2- (
unless you have some need to run the high-current loads for really long per
iods of time?)
I have an ancient Sears charger that can put out about 15 amps all day long
& I use it to float loads when I'm bench testing.
A quick goole search found this: Sears.com
| =C2- |
| =C2- | =C2- | =C2- | =C2- | =C2- |
| Sears.comShopYourWay Kmart MyGofer Craftsman Kenmore PartsDirect Land's E
nd Sears Home Services Sears Outlet Sell on Sears See all Sears Store Locat
or Gift Cards Gift Registry Sears Credit Card Credit Offers |
| |
| View on www.sears.com | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
| =C2- |
Others on the list may have better recommendations for chargers,
-JeffL
On Friday, April 24, 2015 5:14 PM, Gary Specketer wrote:
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ? |
| From: | "RV7ASask" <rv7alamb(at)sasktel.net> |
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1009394733001
Here is an EAA video on an alternate power supply. I installed it early in my construction
and used it throughout. I have used it often since I started flying
as well. I mounted the female end securely to the engine mount just inside the
oil access door so I don't have to remove the cowl to put power to the battery.
I have a Schumacher 10/2 charger similar to the one already suggested. It is quite
happy as long as I keep the power demand down.
Regards
David Lamb
RV7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441276#441276
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Active VOR antenna |
| From: | ron marks <ronmarks(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
Hope springs eternal.... A wideband RF amp such as this on a tiny antenna,
while it may be OK, even great for a rooftop monitor, is not going to be a
satisfactory substitute for a tuned VHF nav antenna in an aircraft.
Overloading, crosstalk and s/n ratio are some of its inherent deficits. It
may seem to be good enough testing in the boonies, but ...
Try it. Play with it. But don't proceed in a way that you can't re-do
easily.
Ron
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 15:43 2015-04-24, you wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Have you been able to assess the active VOR antenna? We=99re abo
ut 30
>> days from first flight and really need a retrofit VOR antenna solution f
or
>> this bird as we discussed.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> James
>>
>
> It's in the que. I've got some boards to order
> for another project next week, this board can
> piggyback onto the 'scrap end' . . . thanks
> for rattling my cage. All the parts are on hand.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Active VOR antenna |
At 03:06 2015-04-25, you wrote:
>Bob,
>Hope springs eternal....=C2 =C2 A wideband RF amp
>such as this on a tiny antenna, while it may be
>OK, even great=C2 for a rooftop monitor, is not
>going to be a satisfactory substitute for a
>tuned VHF nav antenna in an aircraft.
>Overloading, crosstalk and s/n ratio are some
>of=C2 its inherent deficits. It may seem to be
>good enough testing in the boonies, but ...
>Try it. Play with it. But don't proceed in a way that you can't re-do
easily.
>Ron
There's no 'hope' about it . . . performance of such
devices are well known . . . as are their shortcomings.
Nobody is talking about a free lunch here. The goal
is to explore an option for getting a VOR antenna
into a uniquely unfriendly space . . . into a tube
buried in a leading edge.
There are no promises or expectations for equivalency
-OR- resistance to the effects of inter modulation
distortion. The expectation is that it will offer
serviceable VOR performance under SOME conditions
with reservations.
It's a certainty that shortcomings will have to
be evaluated by the user. I've not fired up a
VOR receiver in the last 200-300 hours in the
log. The active antenna is a minimum effort,
low cost way to squeeze a bit more utility out
of a dying technology for this user in one airplane.
No warranty implied - it's a "caveat emptor" of the
first order.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ? |
JeffS,
Have you tried a good old fashion battery charger (not a
maintainer). There are lots of chargers that are capable of putting
out 10-15 amps which should be plenty to keep the avionics & most
accessories running. (unless you have some need to run the
high-current loads for really long periods of time?)
I have an ancient Sears charger that can put out about 15 amps all
day long & I use it to float loads when I'm bench testing.
A quick goole search found this:
Be wary . . . not all 'battery chargers' are
the same. When crafting a source of ac mains
powered DC for ground ops, the power supply
needs to be reasonably well REGULATED and
noise levels no greater than an engine driven
alternator.
Years ago I sold a 25A, 13.8V regulated
power supply for this purpose. I think I sold
them for about $125. As I recall, we sold
about a dozen.
Years later, there are even more attractive
versions of this approach to ground-power.
Here is one such device.
http://tinyurl.com/k6gf8gt
These have a voltage adjust pot that will
probably allow you to turn the 15v output
down to 14v.
CAUTION: If you plan to have a battery on
line, then make sure the battery is fully
charged. These are power supplies, not battery
chargers. Alternatively, use the power supply
'barefoot' and leave the battery off line.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <berkut13(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Active VOR antenna |
Kewl beans, Bob! Thanks again for the help.
-James
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Active VOR antenna
At 15:43 2015-04-24, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>Have you been able to assess the active VOR antenna? Were about 30
>days from first flight and really need a retrofit VOR antenna solution for
>this bird as we discussed.
>
>Thanks,
>James
It's in the que. I've got some boards to order
for another project next week, this board can
piggyback onto the 'scrap end' . . . thanks
for rattling my cage. All the parts are on hand.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ? |
Bob,
Be wary . . . not all 'battery chargers' are
=C2- =C2- the same. When crafting a source of ac mains
=C2- =C2- powered DC for ground ops, the power supply
=C2- =C2- needs to be reasonably well REGULATED and
=C2- =C2- noise levels no greater than an engine driven
=C2- =C2- alternator.
Is your concern about regulation or ripple/voltage-spikes?
-Jeff
On Saturday, April 25, 2015 8:09 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
ls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
JeffS,
Have you tried a good old fashion battery charger (not a
maintainer).=C2- There are lots of chargers that are capable of putting
out 10-15 amps which should be plenty to keep the avionics & most
accessories running.=C2- (unless you have some need to run the
high-current loads for really long periods of time?)
I have an ancient Sears charger that can put out about 15 amps all
day long & I use it to float loads when I'm bench testing.
A quick goole search found this:
=C2- =C2- Be wary . . . not all 'battery chargers' are
=C2- =C2- the same. When crafting a source of ac mains
=C2- =C2- powered DC for ground ops, the power supply
=C2- =C2- needs to be reasonably well REGULATED and
=C2- =C2- noise levels no greater than an engine driven
=C2- =C2- alternator.
=C2- =C2- Years ago I sold a 25A, 13.8V regulated
=C2- =C2- power supply for this purpose. I think I sold
=C2- =C2- them for about $125. As I recall, we sold
=C2- =C2- about a dozen.
=C2- =C2- Years later, there are even more attractive
=C2- =C2- versions of this approach to ground-power.
=C2- =C2- Here is one such device.
http://tinyurl.com/k6gf8gt
=C2- =C2- These have a voltage adjust pot that will
=C2- =C2- probably allow you to turn the 15v output
=C2- =C2- down to 14v.
=C2- =C2- CAUTION: If you plan to have a battery on
=C2- =C2- line, then make sure the battery is fully
=C2- =C2- charged. These are power supplies, not battery
=C2- =C2- chargers. Alternatively, use the power supply
=C2- =C2- 'barefoot' and leave the battery off line.
=C2- Bob . . .
-
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ? CLARIFICATION |
It just occurred to me that my prior recommendation might not have been cle
ar.=C2- I think this is what BobN was getting at in his prior post.
I recommend using an automotive battery charger IN CONJUNCTION w/ a battery
to support electrical loads during construction/electrical system installa
tion.
I was NOT suggesting the use of that type of battery charger, all by itself
, as a power supply.
That my not have been clear from my earlier post.
-JeffL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ben" <n801bh(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ? CLA |
RIFICATION
Jeff and all... That is why I used a new battery to run the devices and
a charger to keep the battery topped off.... My assumption is that havin
g the large battery in the loop would absorb any spikes, ripples or othe
r transient events... Worked perfect for me.... Bob... Am I thinking wr
ong on this concept??? Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ?
CLARIFICATION
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 18:17:59 +0000 (UTC)
It just occurred to me that my prior recommendation might not have been
clear. I think this is what BobN was getting at in his prior post. I r
ecommend using an automotive battery charger IN CONJUNCTION w/ a battery
to support electrical loads during construction/electrical system insta
llation. I was NOT suggesting the use of that type of battery charger, a
ll by itself, as a power supply. That my not have been clear from my ear
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ideas on a "cost effective " ground power ? CLA |
March 14, 2015 - April 26, 2015
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ms