AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-oy
March 22, 2019 - May 04, 2019
An aircraft of that size and vintage may have had a battery charger that
monitored temperature and could limit charging current??
It seems like the Lithium "BMS" strategies are moving in that direction.
Limiting the alternator size as per Earth-X recommendations is a small step
in that direction which I applaud. Even with VRLA batteries I tossed my
100+ amp alternator in favor of a 40 amp unit.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Still noisy voltmeter |
| From: | "Achille" <mickael.t(at)live.fr> |
It's grounded on the ground bus were all my items are coming. Same ground like
voltmeter 2.
I will try thank you ;)
When you tell "loop wire around the switch" it's around the connection ?
Thank you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488183#488183
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Still noisy voltmeter |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
No, I did not mean to connect the ground wire to the switch. What I meant was
to run the positive and negative wires as a twisted pair all of the way from the
source to the voltmeter (as much as possible). Try to avoid a single wire.
If the wires are twisted together, radiated energy will be minimized.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488184#488184
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery BMS failures? |
>An aircraft of that size and vintage may have had a battery charger
>that monitored temperature and could limit charging current??
>It seems like the Lithium "BMS" strategies are moving in that direction.
Don't think so. The 'charger' was not much
different than what we have in our airplanes:
An engine driven power source regulated to
idealized charging levels for the battery.
Some airplanes had two engine driven sources
like starter generators. These would parallel
for delivering up to 800A. The larger
aircraft would also have a auxiliary power
unit good for perhaps 200-300 amps that could
be operated in parallel with ships generators.
None of the generator controls were fitted with
any way to monitor either battery temperature or
current.
>Limiting the alternator size as per Earth-X recommendations is a
>small step in that direction which I applaud. Even with VRLA
>batteries I tossed my 100+ amp alternator in favor of a 40 amp unit.
But suppose your running loads call for more
current? Heated seats maybe? Electric cockpit
heat a la LongEz? A B400 has electric
de=ice on the tail feathers . . . lots
of amps needed there.
Virtually every rechargeable battery's maintenance
instructions call for constant-current/constant-voltage
recharge profiles. I.e. limit current into the
battery to some friendly level until the desired
bus-voltage set point is reached whereupon you
change to constant voltage operation.
All it takes is a current sensor on the battery
feeder to monitor the battery's recharge
current and adjust bus voltage to maintain
fast recharge at the recommended current
until the battery is topped off whereupon
the controller reverts to constant voltage.
Not difficult to do for any combination of
battery and engine driven power sources.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery BMS failures? |
>Don't quote me on this (it's been awhile...) but
>as I recall, the temperature monitoring was
>separate from the charger. I think the
>charger's only data inputs=9D were
>weight-on-wheels and where its AC Power was
>coming from (external or engine-driven generator).
If the aircraft had 3-phase alternators
and separate starters, then DC power was
derived from transformer/rectifiers to
run DC systems and recharge batteries.
These aircraft were generally large enough
to carry an APU which was used to start
engines thus reducing demands on the battery.
These systems could easily include features
for battery management.
But for twin-jets up through ships like
the Hawker 800 series, batteries were
connected to a bus powered by generators
with a LOT of output capability. Any
necessary monitoring of battery temperatures
was a simple thermometer gage with warning
and danger lights.
It was up to crew to notice and then
take an overheated battery off line until
it cooled.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery BMS failures? |
> On Mar 22, 2019, at 07:00, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
> If the aircraft had 3-phase alternators and separate starters, then DC power
was derived from transformer/rectifiers to run DC systems and recharge batteries.
>
> These aircraft were generally large enough to carry an APU which was used to
start engines thus reducing demands on the battery.
The Dash-8s of this vintage had Pratt & Whitney PW123Ds (2,150 shp/side) with starter/generators.
There were also AC generators (thats what they called them!)
and TRUs. It was a complex electrical system, to put it mildly.
The planes were available with APUs, but the airline chose not to install them.
The reasons for that remained a mystery to most of us who flew them, as the
plane was an overpowered beast that had no trouble hauling a full cabin and bulked-out
cargo bins. The extra couple hundred pounds would have made zero difference
in performance, but would have improved interior comfort and reduced battery
demands enormously. As it was, all of our engine starts were battery powered
for #2, then tie the DC buses to start #1 assisted by the #2 generator.
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
I learned today that Skip Koss passed away
last Tuesday.
Skip was indeed an aviation legend. Generous
of his time and resources, he was eager to share
his vast knowledge in all matters aircraft but
especially batteries.
You can read more here . . .
https://tinyurl.com/y5guu4gc
I met Skip while employed at Gates-Learjet on the
GP-180 program in 1985. I was privileged to enjoy
Skip's friendship for more than 33 years.
He will be missed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | noice filter (non aviation) |
In my shop, I've got a Jet Air Filter with a remote control.
If it is plugged into the same circuit as the lights (LED), I can turn it on with
the remote, but not turn it off or change the speed.
If it's plugged into a different circuit, then the remote works fine (regardless
of whether the lights are on or off).
I'm guessing there's some type of interference on the line which is preventing
the remote from working although I can't get my head around why.
I could rewire the outlet for the air filter so it's on a different circuit than
the lights, but that would be a pain.
Is there some type of line filter that I could install which would resolve this
so I don't have to rewire the outlet?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488215#488215
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: noice filter (non aviation) |
At 06:28 AM 3/24/2019, you wrote:
>
>In my shop, I've got a Jet Air Filter with a remote control.
>
>If it is plugged into the same circuit as the lights (LED), I can
>turn it on with the remote, but not turn it off or change the speed.
>
>If it's plugged into a different circuit, then the remote works fine
>(regardless of whether the lights are on or off).
>
>I'm guessing there's some type of interference on the line which is
>preventing the remote from working although I can't get my head around why.
>
>I could rewire the outlet for the air filter so it's on a different
>circuit than the lights, but that would be a pain.
>
>Is there some type of line filter that I could install which would
>resolve this so I don't have to rewire the outlet?
Most LED fixtures include some form
of power conditioning that provides
a constant current to the string of
leds over a wide range of input votlages.
These constant current generators operate
at the highest practical frequencies to
minimize weight and volume of the
driver components. They're pretty EMC
friendly for radiated emissions but
as you've discovered, perhaps not so
well behaved for conducted emissions.
How many light(s) are we talking
about? It's generally best to filter
off the noise at the antagonist as opposed
to protecting the victim. Depending
on your logistics, filtering the
victim may be the best choice. What
kind of power levels are we talking
about. How many watts consumed by
lights? How many by filter?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Key Pieces of Runescape Mining |
| From: | "gaosuo1234" <zfang0898(at)gmail.com> |
Kids, Work and Runescape Mining
Runescape Mining - Is it a Scam?
The dragon pickaxe is an exceptional item in you could boost your mining level
by 3 from the particular attack. Gnome amulet is known for the greatest defensive
stats, which is employed as a potent amulet in quests. The higher plus
you attempt to attain the more weapons will probably break.
Talismans or tiaras aren't needed also. Released in 2001, it's commonly thought
of as Runescape 1 or RS1. RuneScape includes a character-customisation system.
Completion all the tasks of a particular difficulty in the Varrock Tasks is vital
to get the armour for a reward. In the event the suspect fits every one of
the catagories, then it is probably a bot or a borg. Runescape 2 Herblore It
is a very difficult skill and takes a lot of time, work and if you don't have
Runescape two money to begin with.
A Secret Weapon for Runescape Mining
Another reason players should think about the Motherload mine is the fact that
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to mine with.
Banking methods are advised in the event the player wishes to do self-sufficient
Mining and Smithing. The absolute most profitable skills have a tendency to
be the skills which are more troublesome to attain high levels in, therefore
it's important to utilize your skilling time wisely. It's advised to receive
your hitpoints level to around 15 before trying to finish the Stronghold of Security,
but you don't need to.
Participating in the Volcanic Mine minigame can provide the very best experience
rates outside the Quarry. As an extra bonus, High Alchemy is among the absolute
most efficient ways to increase your Magic level. Sacred Clay Needles enable
the user to receive 24,450 bonus experience whilst training Crafting.
From the above mentioned information, you've known what you may receive from the
rooftop agility courses. Any requirements that are tied to certain actions
might be changed. All the everyday activities that I'll go through are extremely
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stack of GP.
Runescape Mining - Is it a Scam?
When you wish to pull off a switch, you can just glide your mouse above your items
and place them on really quickly. Players are going to be able to have several
planets. Servers are also divided on the grounds of functionality.
Therefore, when you have been looking to create your own RuneScape private server,
we recommend that you follow the advice offered in this brief article. If
you wish to steer clear of people and still require aid, you could also watch
video tutorials on YouTube. The most up-to-date in 4x4 cars, nevertheless, is
the shift on the fly mechanism that enables you to modify the mode and convert
your vehicle in a 4 wheel drive by simply pushing a button.
A number of the alternative techniques which OSRS GP (https://www.rsmalls.com/osrs-gold) are going to be shown later in this guide may be more suited for you. You should have each of the ingredients. You are not just helping us out but also assisting the other users which make usage of it.
Mining mithril isn't recommended in the guild unless there's no-one else at the
rocks. Rocks are observed at mining sites throughout the RuneScape world.
Well mining is really pretty straight forward.
Before returning to the village, it's advised to fill up your inventory with a
different load of coal to make the most of your yield. At present, there are
ten different basic kinds of ores, together with some uncommon ores. For your
very first few mining levels you will progress extremely fast.
There'll be the ore box, a new reward made utilizing the smithing skill which permits
you to carry more ore alongside you. In order to reach the maximum quantity
of expertise and ores, an individual should always use the ideal pickaxe
available at their Mining level. If you're a seasoned player, it is wise to
recognize the color of the rock rather than prospecting.
There is going to be a mine that not many individuals use. Another way is via
questing. The lives of my pals and family are precious.
If you allow the game create its own time in your life, you're in essence letting
it take over. Free market activity is a crucial bit of what it costs. In order
to play the mini-game, they need to place their items as well as cash on
stake.
To boost your level you want to answer questions while meditating. So Rune essence
is an excellent alternative for low levels which are playing on mobile at
work or for people who are doing homework while they train. Need to have a look
at Trah hour voice of seren.
If the function of a medieval conqueror entices you, then you are certain to find
hooked. Within the room where the machine is situated, you can locate some
ashes. If you leave one empty slot, you can just unequip your helmet when you
wish to leave.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488242#488242
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Whispered Maplestory Damien Secrets |
| From: | "gaosuo1234" <zfang0898(at)gmail.com> |
Ideas, Formulas and Shortcuts for Maplestory Damien
Definitions of Maplestory Damien
You'll be slower and need extra scrolls to constitute your Accuracy and Avoidability
with this build. An individual may choose between the fundamental archetypes.
Bolded skills reference skills that are vital for the class. They're a
class that is fairly average.
They need a good deal of mana potions to work. In case it hits you, you've got
to finish a DDR-type minigame in which you need to enter all the arrow keys correctly
or else you'll be binded for a brief time period ( where you cannot move,
attack, or use any potions). Mihile uses light's ability to smite the evil
which exists in Mapleworld. At the same time they can destroy a lot of foes
at the levels. All do have some decent ones and webtoons.
Ideas, Formulas and Shortcuts for Maplestory Damien
Where you are able to fish, Occasionally you'll encounter regions. The battle
has two unique stages. They are front attackers that have abilities that may
impact a enormous area. They have the capability to do excellent DPS but need
funding to receive there. The reach of the attack changes if used over the course
of a jump.
Maplestory Damien - Is it a Scam?
This wasn't created by me. It'd be way easier in case you have Bind. Their mobbing
is fluid. They provide webtoons in Japanese. Audio is loved by us and you
need to too.
Srikes and Lost Sectors aren't the only techniques. Boxes are made to exploit
us. While attacking at the same moment, you'll enjoy the game a ton more Heroes
use a combat system that demands the player.
Because he looked like he was prepared to protest again the sound should have
startled him. On the portion of the LT is an LCD and the membrane menu controls
we're utilized to seeing from the organization. Basically, Lectrosonics is attempting
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by the scope.
This is an amazing advance for any device and it is currently going to have the
ability to provide info that is important to emergency care primary care doctors
and cardiologists. Since all your AP are flashed to the right requirements
after your job change is made by you, your AP distribution has to be optimized
to make it through the ten levels the quickest. We've added the capability to
change directions while connecting skills. Possessing excellent and mobility
mobbing skills makes them enjoyable and simple to train.
It is worth noting that while they are called Bowmen the official site by several guides and a great deal of NPC's, the very first job improvement is know as an Archer. My assistant here will explain the application. Oct 05, the best way to Hack maple 2 mesos (https://www.mmoko.com/maplestory2-mesos) .
I chose to repost it due to the few number of women and men who go there and also
the large number of women and men who wonder what job to attempt. These terms
and conditions may vary from time to time and it is the obligation of the user
to check for these alterations. The business's presence was felt with the
debut of the iPad. Clients are interested in finding alternative procedures to
develop and customise applications as stated by the company.
He'll inform you to go into the door in the right of this library. This website
is currently selling clothes. Another element of purchasing items is the prospective
exclusivity. You may want to appear towards another class if you're on
the lookout for fun. You've got to collect materials and create items that might
be used to maintain those 3 bars from going down completely.
Damien's mechanisms are deceptively easy, yet to dodge. This bastard is annoying
to kill and you will die a deal that is good. Damien is killed by him by doing
this in addition. We're likely to begin.
New maps are additional. They added some preview events in the server that I'll
chat about those too! Because of this, in case you have a change, it's advised
to move to this protocol. 179, if you want, I can earn a video. MapleStory,
free and secure download.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488243#488243
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: noice filter (non aviation) |
Twenty 22w bulbs.
https://www.lightup.com/t8-4ft-led-tube-22w-ballast-bypass-50w-equiv-2640-lumens-lumegen.html
The air filter is rated at 5a.
https://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/afs-1000b-1000-cfm-air-filtration-system-3-speed-with-remote-control/708620B
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488249#488249
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: noice filter (non aviation) |
At 06:30 AM 3/25/2019, you wrote:
>
>Twenty 22w bulbs.
>https://www.lightup.com/t8-4ft-led-tube-22w-ballast-bypass-50w-equiv-2640-lumens-lumegen.html
>
>The air filter is rated at 5a.
>https://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/afs-1000b-1000-cfm-air-filtration-system-3-speed-with-remote-control/708620B
>
Okay, this is a WAG but and inexpensive
experiment. Without getting into an EMC
lab to 'sniff out' characteristics
of the evil triad (victim/propagation-path/
victim), I'll guess that the remote receiver
in the filter is suffering conducted
interference from the lighting power
conditioners. Get one of these things
https://tinyurl.com/yywphdh8
and install it on your filter. This
will convert the cord on the filter
into the same style as your computer.
The filter's attenuation characteristics
look like this
Emacs!
Not really significant below 30 Khz
or so . . . so I'm hoping that your
lighting power conditioners operated
above that frequency.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: noice filter (non aviation) |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 06:30 AM 3/25/2019, you wrote:
>
>
>
> Okay, this is a WAG but and inexpensive
> experiment. Without getting into an EMC
> lab to 'sniff out' characteristics
> of the evil triad (victim/propagation-path/
> victim), I'll guess that the remote receiver
> in the filter is suffering conducted
> interference from the lighting power
> conditioners. Get one of these things
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yywphdh8 (https://tinyurl.com/yywphdh8)
>
> and install it on your filter. This
> will convert the cord on the filter
> into the same style as your computer.
> The filter's attenuation characteristics
> look like this
>
> [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20190325111420.05a3f320(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img]
>
> Not really significant below 30 Khz
> or so . . . so I'm hoping that your
> lighting power conditioners operated
> above that frequency.
>
>
> Bob . . .
My apologies if the subject change doesn't start a new thread.
Would this be appropriate to address the problem in
Post subject: Eye Beam Mini LED / RF interference
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:38 am
The problem persists.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488267#488267
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | noice filter Hijack |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 328
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 06:30 AM 3/25/2019, you wrote:
Quote:
Bob N said:
"Okay, this is a WAG but and inexpensive
experiment. Without getting into an EMC
lab to 'sniff out' characteristics
of the evil triad (victim/propagation-path/
victim), I'll guess that the remote receiver
in the filter is suffering conducted
interference from the lighting power
conditioners. Get one of these things
https://tinyurl.com/yywphdh8
and install it on your filter. This
will convert the cord on the filter
into the same style as your computer.
The filter's attenuation characteristics
look like this
[img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20190325111420.05a3f320(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img]
Not really significant below 30 Khz
or so . . . so I'm hoping that your
lighting power conditioners operated
above that frequency.
Bob . . . "
Would this be appropriate to address the problem in
Post subject: Eye Beam Mini LED / RF interference
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:38 am
The problem persists.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488268#488268
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Battery Tender charger/desulfator |
The latest/greatest specimin in the
stable of Battery Tender wall warts
came in.
I dug around in the shop and came up
with an SVLA battery out of a portable
air compressor that showed about 9v
open circuit. When impressed with 14.2
volts, charge current stabilized at
about 0.4 amps and would not go any
lower. After being on charge for about
5 hours, I loaded it with 1A and the
terminal voltage fell to about 11 volts.
I.e. capacity of zero.
I deduce that no cells are shorted.
I hooked it to the new Battery
Tender and invoked the maintenance
mode.
Here are the pertinent pages from the
users manual.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Battery_Tender.pdf
With a 'scope hooked to the battery we
see this:
Emacs!
Yeah, it 'hammers' the battery with 25uS, 16v pulses
probably 2A or better at an 8.2KHz rate.
I saw no signals that suggested credence for the
magic 3.26Mhz 'resonant frequency' of lead sulfate . . .
which I think is bogus. How any physical mass of
those dimensions might offer resonance at a
wavelength of 97 meters begs some light-
footed explanation.
Nonetheless, the product does have a 'hammer'
mode. The literature suggests that a badly sulfated
battery may require weeks of rejuvenation . . . this
test article is in pretty bad shape so we'll
let 'er cook.
BTW I see that BatteryMinder has come out with
a 'desulfator' product.
https://tinyurl.com/y4682h48
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | skywagon185guy <skywagon185(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Tender charger/desulfator |
Hi Bob,
I have used these maintainers since they first hit the market and have had
no problems with them other than this;
When the input ac power is lost (power outage, mystery GFI trip) and you
don't react to it by disconnecting the unit, the battery under its control
will backflow a low current until the battery is flat.
Is this addressed in this newest model....?
On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 3:23 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> The latest/greatest specimin in the
> stable of Battery Tender wall warts
> came in.
>
> I dug around in the shop and came up
> with an SVLA battery out of a portable
> air compressor that showed about 9v
> open circuit. When impressed with 14.2
> volts, charge current stabilized at
> about 0.4 amps and would not go any
> lower. After being on charge for about
> 5 hours, I loaded it with 1A and the
> terminal voltage fell to about 11 volts.
>
> I.e. capacity of zero.
>
> I deduce that no cells are shorted.
> I hooked it to the new Battery
> Tender and invoked the maintenance
> mode.
>
> Here are the pertinent pages from the
> users manual.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Battery_Tender.pdf
>
>
> With a 'scope hooked to the battery we
> see this:
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> Yeah, it 'hammers' the battery with 25uS, 16v pulses
> probably 2A or better at an 8.2KHz rate.
>
> I saw no signals that suggested credence for the
> magic 3.26Mhz 'resonant frequency' of lead sulfate . . .
> which I think is bogus. How any physical mass of
> those dimensions might offer resonance at a
> wavelength of 97 meters begs some light-
> footed explanation.
>
> Nonetheless, the product does have a 'hammer'
> mode. The literature suggests that a badly sulfated
> battery may require weeks of rejuvenation . . . this
> test article is in pretty bad shape so we'll
> let 'er cook.
>
> BTW I see that BatteryMinder has come out with
> a 'desulfator' product.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4682h48
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Lacing two cores of 22awg |
Hi All
Whats a nice way to finish (say) a free 12 run of just two cores of 22awg wire?
For instance to the bulb of a flight instrument.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lacing two cores of 22awg |
Try putting the search term wire wrap braid into eBay. The stuff comes in myriad
colors and diameters at minimal cost.
Eric
> On Mar 27, 2019, at 16:25, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> Whats a nice way to finish (say) a free 12 run of just two cores of 22awg wire?
For instance to the bulb of a flight instrument.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: noise filter Hijack |
>
>Would this be appropriate to address the problem in
>
>Post subject: Eye Beam Mini LED / RF interference
>Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:38 am
>
>The problem persists.
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488268#488268
Some sort of treatment to the
light fixture's power leads would
be worth trying. The suggested
components are cheap but minimums
and shipping charges would make
a single filter pretty pricey.
I'm getting ready to place an order
with Digikey . . . I can add the
parts to craft a filter to try.
How much current does the fixture
draw? I can add the parts to my
order and ship you an assembled
filter.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Tender charger/desulfator |
At 12:45 PM 3/27/2019, you wrote:
>Hi Bob,
>I have used these maintainers since they first hit the market and
>have had no problems with them other than this;
>
>When the input ac power is lost (power outage, mystery GFI trip) and
>you don't react to it by disconnecting the unit, the battery under
>its control will backflow a low current until the battery is flat.
>
>Is this addressed in this newest model....?
excellent question. I've got a stable
of 'old' devices in addition to the
new kid on the block. I'll check.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Lacing two cores of 22awg |
Twist them together?
On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 6:41 PM Alec Myers wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> What=99s a nice way to finish (say) a free 12=9D run of just
two cores of
> 22awg wire? For instance to the bulb of a flight instrument.
>
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lacing two cores of 22awg |
At 06:30 AM 3/28/2019, you wrote:
>Twist them together?
I was going to suggest that too . . . I use
a drill motor to create lengths of twisted
pairs for later incorporation into a project.
You can capture on end of the pair in
a vise; the other end in your drill
chuck. Run the drill until you get about
1/2" per turn pitch on the twisted
assembly. Release the rotary tension
carefully . . . some wires will react
rather amazingly to become a snarled
tangle if allowed to freely 'relax'.
If your drill runs both directions,
you can drive it 'backwards' enough
to reduce the rotary tension before
you take it out of the chuck.
I've fabricated twisted pairs of 10 feet or
more with this method.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cost effective technology |
| From: | "vookis" <csgo.expertt(at)gmail.com> |
Please tell me more about calving sheds in Tasmania (https://bisonconstructions.com.au/steel-buildings/dairy-buildings/calving-loafing-barn),
how well they are
built, which technologies are used (and which technologies are needed?). Maybe
timings are also important - if, for example, they build it too fast, it may
affect the quality badly? As experienced farmers say "calving sheds should
be those good to want live there yourself) Wish I can succeed in this business.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488304#488304
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Spammy Calving Sheds |
At least the spam is entertaining this morning. Calving sheds! =F0=9F=98=9C
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spammy Calving Sheds |
At 08:36 AM 3/28/2019, you wrote:
>At least the spam is entertaining this morning. Calving sheds!
Yeah . . . as we write, I'm loading the
truck to go put up lights on the
poles over some calving pens. First
time in 6mo that bucket truck,
weather and people all came together
on same day.
The work site is 25 miles out of town out
in the Gyp Hills . . . one of those
jobs where you load up with everything
you know you will need and as much
stuff as you think you might need!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lacing two cores of 22awg |
If you do this with all your wires, invest in multicolored wire.=C2- If
you've got runs to three different devices, each with a ground, you can hav
e white/black, green/black, and red/black.=C2- It isn't absolutely necess
ary for functionality, but when it comes time to troubleshooting/adding/rem
oving/replacing devices, you'll love it.
Also, if you have four spools of wire, build a box with a rod through it an
d hang the spools side by side.=C2- Then you can spin them together as Bo
b suggests straight from the spools, and spin off exactly the length you ne
ed each time.
uckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 06:30 AM 3/28/2019, you wrote:
Twist themtogether?
I was going to suggest that too . . . I use
a drill motor to create lengths of twisted
pairs for later incorporation into a project.
You can capture on end of the pair in
a vise; the other end in your drill
chuck. Run the drill until you get about
1/2" per turn pitch on the twisted
assembly. Release the rotary tension
carefully . . . some wires will react
rather amazingly to become a snarled
tangle if allowed to freely 'relax'.
If your drill runs both directions,
you can drive it 'backwards' enough
to reduce the rotary tension before
you take it out of the chuck.
I've fabricated twisted pairs of 10 feet or
more with this method.
=C2- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Skip <cardinalnsb(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 03/27/19 |
Hi All
Whats a nice way to finish (say) a free 12 run of just two cores of 22awg w
ire?
For instance to the bulb of a flight instrument.
22 ga wire lights=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- shi
elded wire?=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Skip
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: noise filter Hijack |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
Bob, you are too kind. Thank you for your offer and I acceptjavascript:emoticon(':D')
. And I'm happy to cover any expense on my behalf.
Eyebeam Mini Specs are here: http://www.aveoengineering.com/eyebeam-mini/
Aveo EMI Filters: https://tinyurl.com/y3epopac
Aveo suggested remedy: Attached
They also suggested multiple loops around the ferrite cores. Haven't tried that
yet.
Original request to Aveo:
Request:
Technical help please. I have installed an EyeBeam mini in my composite airframe.
The shielded, twisted pair power and ground wire cable parallel unshielded,
untwisted wires to the cabin speaker for a distance of about 5' . At that point
the cabin speaker pair becomes a twisted and shielded cable. The two cables
parallel each other for an addittional 12'. The shield for the speaker is grounded
at the audio panel and the shield for the EB is grounded at the ship's single
point ground bus. The problem: When I key the microphone, the EB turns on.
If I key it again, the EB begins flashing uncontrollably. It is unresponsive
to the dimming control and the on/off switch. The only way to stop the flashing
is to disconnect the EB from power. The EB works fine when connected to battery
power independent of the ship's electrical system. Attempts at a solution:
Thinking that the the magnetic field of the speaker magnet may causing the
problem, the speaker was disconnected and the mic was keyed. The EB exhibited
the same uncontrollable flashing upon keying the microphone. I recognize that
the problem does not lie with the EB. But I'm hoping that your design engineers,
knowing what the EB's vulnerabilities are, can look at this and determine how
to remedy it. Thank you, John Burnaby
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488314#488314
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aveo_engineering_suggested_fix_for_eyebeam_mini_147.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: noise filter Hijack |
At 12:50 PM 3/28/2019, you wrote:
>
>Bob, you are too kind. Thank you for your offer and I
>acceptjavascript:emoticon(':D') . And I'm happy to cover any
>expense on my behalf.
>
>Eyebeam Mini Specs are here: http://www.aveoengineering.com/eyebeam-mini/
found a better manual that called out
0.2A at full bright on 12v . . .
>Aveo EMI Filters: https://tinyurl.com/y3epopac
These are wAAaayyyy to beefy . . , but
they might work. What I'm going to send
you is much smaller.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lacing two cores of 22awg |
At 09:59 AM 3/28/2019, you wrote:
>If you do this with all your wires, invest in multicolored wire. If
>you've got runs to three different devices, each with a ground, you
>can have white/black, green/black, and red/black. It isn't
>absolutely necessary for functionality, but when it comes time to
>troubleshooting/adding/removing/replacing devices, you'll love it.
>
>Also, if you have four spools of wire, build a box with a rod
>through it and hang the spools side by side. Then you can spin them
>together as Bob suggests straight from the spools, and spin off
>exactly the length you need each time.
that works . . . someone also
reminded me that I've suggested
shielded wire for things like
compass lights, etc.
use shield for one side, center
conductor for the other.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Skip <cardinalnsb(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Quick transponder cavity tube test |
I inherited 6 older transponders, from someone not known to collect junk.
=C2- I understand that if the cavity tube is bad, it is junk.=C2- Is th
ere a cheap easy way to verify if the cavity tube is bad?=C2- thanks in a
dvance, Skip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Quick transponder cavity tube test |
At 02:10 AM 3/29/2019, you wrote:
>I inherited 6 older transponders, from someone not known to collect
>junk. I understand that if the cavity tube is bad, it is junk. Is
>there a cheap easy way to verify if the cavity tube is bad? thanks
>in advance, Skip
>
That takes some pretty sophisticated bench test
equipment . . . I'm not sure that contemporary
shops would even know how to test them
much less have the equipment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Quick transponder cavity tube test |
Every time I get my static system rectified (24 months) my avionics guy sets up
a little antenna on a stand next to the airplane, connects it to his yellow box,
and checks the transponders working and outputting the right mode C codes
for the pressure in the pitot system. You dont get a power measurement but his
box does check the output frequency.
So that sort of test would give you a go/no-go for the tube.
The text box might have a transmitted power measurement too, if you cable the transponder
directly into it. Im not sure. So worth enquiring at an avionics place.
On Mar 29, 2019, at 8:46 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 02:10 AM 3/29/2019, you wrote:
> I inherited 6 older transponders, from someone not known to collect junk. I
understand that if the cavity tube is bad, it is junk. Is there a cheap easy
way to verify if the cavity tube is bad? thanks in advance, Skip
>
That takes some pretty sophisticated bench test
equipment . . . I'm not sure that contemporary
shops would even know how to test them
much less have the equipment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
Greetings,
Does anybody happen to have a manual or specifications sheet for a Piper
Arrow pitot-static mast?
What amp rating circuit breaker should I use to protect this circuit (I am
using 12 AWG Tefzel wire)?
I have one of these installed on my experimental airplane and I would like
to have some kind of instruction sheet for each component installed and
this is one of the last items I do not have an instruction sheet on.
Thanks!!!
Bill Hunter
On Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 15:23 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> The latest/greatest specimin in the
> stable of Battery Tender wall warts
> came in.
>
> I dug around in the shop and came up
> with an SVLA battery out of a portable
> air compressor that showed about 9v
> open circuit. When impressed with 14.2
> volts, charge current stabilized at
> about 0.4 amps and would not go any
> lower. After being on charge for about
> 5 hours, I loaded it with 1A and the
> terminal voltage fell to about 11 volts.
>
> I.e. capacity of zero.
>
> I deduce that no cells are shorted.
> I hooked it to the new Battery
> Tender and invoked the maintenance
> mode.
>
> Here are the pertinent pages from the
> users manual.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Battery_Tender.pdf
>
>
> With a 'scope hooked to the battery we
> see this:
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> Yeah, it 'hammers' the battery with 25uS, 16v pulses
> probably 2A or better at an 8.2KHz rate.
>
> I saw no signals that suggested credence for the
> magic 3.26Mhz 'resonant frequency' of lead sulfate . . .
> which I think is bogus. How any physical mass of
> those dimensions might offer resonance at a
> wavelength of 97 meters begs some light-
> footed explanation.
>
> Nonetheless, the product does have a 'hammer'
> mode. The literature suggests that a badly sulfated
> battery may require weeks of rejuvenation . . . this
> test article is in pretty bad shape so we'll
> let 'er cook.
>
> BTW I see that BatteryMinder has come out with
> a 'desulfator' product.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4682h48
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Quick transponder cavity tube test |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
Unless they have disposed of transponder bench check units, most
avionics shops can test on the bench for power output and frequency
accuracy/waveform. Until a couple years ago, when I sold airplane, I had
a Narco AT50 with good cavity tube..ie still putting out rated power.
That is a 50 year old design. I would think that most would consider
cavity tube ok if it puts out 90 % of rated power, but I don't know what
the standard is.
On 3/29/2019 7:07 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> Every time I get my static system rectified (24 months) my avionics guy sets
up a little antenna on a stand next to the airplane, connects it to his yellow
box, and checks the transponders working and outputting the right mode C codes
for the pressure in the pitot system. You dont get a power measurement but his
box does check the output frequency.
>
> So that sort of test would give you a go/no-go for the tube.
>
> The text box might have a transmitted power measurement too, if you cable the
transponder directly into it. Im not sure. So worth enquiring at an avionics
place.
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 29, 2019, at 8:46 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
>
> At 02:10 AM 3/29/2019, you wrote:
>> I inherited 6 older transponders, from someone not known to collect junk. I
understand that if the cavity tube is bad, it is junk. Is there a cheap easy
way to verify if the cavity tube is bad? thanks in advance, Skip
>>
>
> That takes some pretty sophisticated bench test
> equipment . . . I'm not sure that contemporary
> shops would even know how to test them
> much less have the equipment.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Klixon Circuit Breakers |
I am needing to replace a klixon 7277 circuit breaker and I see that they
come in two varieties.
Does anybody know what the difference between the 7277 - 1 and the 7277 - 2
circuit breakers is?
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Quick transponder cavity tube test |
I'm sure that if your avionics guy is certifying your transponder he is
checking the power output at some point. Either on the bench or with his
yellow box.Appendix F to Part 43=94ATC Transponder Tests and Inspecti
ons
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=5829ce2954d4be54fdd72f9a80db678
1&mc=true&node=pt14.1.43&rgn=div5#ap14.1.43_117.f
(1) Verify that the transponder RF output power is within specifications
for the class of transponder. Use the same conditions as described in
(c)(1)(i), (ii), and (iii) above.
(i) For Class 1A and 2A ATCRBS transponders, verify that the minimum RF
peak output power is at least 21.0 dbw (125 watts).
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 7:24 AM Alec Myers wrote:
>
> Every time I get my static system rectified (24 months) my avionics guy
> sets up a little antenna on a stand next to the airplane, connects it to
> his yellow box, and checks the transponder=99s working and outputti
ng the
> right mode C codes for the pressure in the pitot system. You don=99
t get a
> power measurement but his box does check the output frequency.
>
> So that sort of test would give you a go/no-go for the tube.
>
> The text box might have a transmitted power measurement too, if you cable
> the transponder directly into it. I=99m not sure. So worth enquirin
g at an
> avionics place.
>
>
> On Mar 29, 2019, at 8:46 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 02:10 AM 3/29/2019, you wrote:
> > I inherited 6 older transponders, from someone not known to collect
> junk. I understand that if the cavity tube is bad, it is junk. Is there
a
> cheap easy way to verify if the cavity tube is bad? thanks in advance, S
kip
> >
>
> That takes some pretty sophisticated bench test
> equipment . . . I'm not sure that contemporary
> shops would even know how to test them
> much less have the equipment.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Quick transponder cavity tube test |
"I would think that most would consider cavity tube ok if it puts out 90 %
of rated power, but I don't know what the standard is. "
125 W, and you're allowed 3db loss in the cable to the antenna.
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 10:15 AM Kelly McMullen wrote
:
> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> Unless they have disposed of transponder bench check units, most
> avionics shops can test on the bench for power output and frequency
> accuracy/waveform. Until a couple years ago, when I sold airplane, I had
> a Narco AT50 with good cavity tube..ie still putting out rated power.
> That is a 50 year old design. I would think that most would consider
> cavity tube ok if it puts out 90 % of rated power, but I don't know what
> the standard is.
>
> On 3/29/2019 7:07 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> >
> > Every time I get my static system rectified (24 months) my avionics guy
> sets up a little antenna on a stand next to the airplane, connects it to
> his yellow box, and checks the transponder=99s working and outputti
ng the
> right mode C codes for the pressure in the pitot system. You don=99
t get a
> power measurement but his box does check the output frequency.
> >
> > So that sort of test would give you a go/no-go for the tube.
> >
> > The text box might have a transmitted power measurement too, if you
> cable the transponder directly into it. I=99m not sure. So worth en
quiring at
> an avionics place.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 29, 2019, at 8:46 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> >
> > At 02:10 AM 3/29/2019, you wrote:
> >> I inherited 6 older transponders, from someone not known to collect
> junk. I understand that if the cavity tube is bad, it is junk. Is there
a
> cheap easy way to verify if the cavity tube is bad? thanks in advance, S
kip
> >>
> >
> > That takes some pretty sophisticated bench test
> > equipment . . . I'm not sure that contemporary
> > shops would even know how to test them
> > much less have the equipment.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Klixon Circuit Breakers |
| From: | "jsajpf" <john.friday_adis(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Bill,
The -2 is a military spec grade device (tighter calibration limits) per the device data sheet found here: https://www.sensata.com/products/electrical-protection/7277-aircraft-circuit-breaker.
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488350#488350
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Klixon Circuit Breakers |
>The -2 is a military spec grade device
I guess another way to explain is "the - 2 is more expensive"
John thanks for the quick reply in your help!
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 11:00 jsajpf wrote:
> john.friday_adis(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
> Bill,
>
> The -2 is a military spec grade device (tighter calibration limits) per
> the device data sheet found here:
> https://www.sensata.com/products/electrical-protection/7277-aircraft-circuit-breaker
> .
>
> John
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488350#488350
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Klixon Circuit Breakers |
| From: | Harley Dixon <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
From Sensata (https://www.sensata.com/);
The military grade version of this circuit breaker is the Klixon 7274-
2 series. The 7277 and 7274-2 series circuit breakers are physically and
electrically identical, with the exception that the 7277 has wider
calibration limits.
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 3/29/2019 1:16 PM, William Hunter wrote:
> I am needing to replace a klixon 7277 circuit breaker and I see that
> they come in two varieties.
>
> Does anybody know what the difference between the 7277 - 1 and the
> 7277 - 2 circuit breakers is?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Hunter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Klixon Circuit Breakers |
>The military grade version of this circuit breaker is the Klixon=C2=AE 727
4- 2
series. The 7277 and 7274-2 series circuit breakers are physically and
electrically identical, with the exception that the 7277 has wider
calibration limits.
Looking at the Aircraft Spruce website the Klixon circuit breaker 7277-1-10
is $36 and the Klixon circuit breaker 7277-2-10 is only $21 so it seems to
me that the - 2 would be lower quality and therefore lower cost.
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 11:11 Harley Dixon wrote:
> From Sensata (https://www.sensata.com/);
>
> The military grade version of this circuit breaker is the Klixon=C2=AE 72
74- 2
> series. The 7277 and 7274-2 series circuit breakers are physically and
> electrically identical, with the exception that the 7277 has wider
> calibration limits.
>
> Harley
> ------------------------------
>
> On 3/29/2019 1:16 PM, William Hunter wrote:
>
> I am needing to replace a klixon 7277 circuit breaker and I see that they
> come in two varieties.
>
> Does anybody know what the difference between the 7277 - 1 and the 7277 -
> 2 circuit breakers is?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Hunter
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 3/29/2019 11:36 AM, William Hunter wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Does anybody happen to have a manual or specifications sheet for a
> Piper Arrow pitot-static mast?
>
> What amp rating circuit breaker should I use to protect this circuit
> (I am using 12 AWG Tefzel wire)?
>
> I have one of these installed on my experimental airplane and I would
> like to have some kind of instruction sheet for each component
> installed and this is one of the last items I do not have an
> instruction sheet on.
>
> Thanks!!!
>
> Bill Hunter
>
The breaker should protect the wire, so just use a chart that gives max
capacity for #12 wire.
Are there no brand/model markings on the mast? It seems likely that
Piper would just buy a common part.
Charlie
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Klixon Circuit Breakers |
| From: | "jsajpf" <john.friday_adis(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Bill,
I owe you an apology. The info I posted was incorrect due to my mis-reading of
the web site info.
The 7277-1 contains an auxiliary circuit that closes when the CB trips. Ref. the drawings available on the Sensata site for the 7277 series breakers (https://www.sensata.com/sites/default/files/media/documents/ourproducts_AircraftCircuitBreaker_7277Series_7277-1-R_drawing_pdf.pdf) and (https://www.sensata.com/sites/default/files/media/documents/ourproducts_AircraftCircuitBreaker_7277Series_7277-2-P_drawing_pdf..pdf).
The aux circuit would be suitable for a CB monitoring system (i.e. Airbus a/c display
cb status to the crew and annunciate a trip for critical systems).
Sorry for the confusion,
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488359#488359
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Klixon Circuit Breakers |
Not a problem... I was able to figure out that the - 2 was the cheaper so
that is what I got... thanks again!!!
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 17:53 jsajpf wrote:
> john.friday_adis(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
> Bill,
>
> I owe you an apology. The info I posted was incorrect due to my
> mis-reading of the web site info.
>
> The 7277-1 contains an auxiliary circuit that closes when the CB trips.
> Ref. the drawings available on the Sensata site for the 7277 series
> breakers (
> https://www.sensata.com/sites/default/files/media/documents/ourproducts_AircraftCircuitBreaker_7277Series_7277-1-R_drawing_pdf.pdf)
> and (
> https://www.sensata.com/sites/default/files/media/documents/ourproducts_AircraftCircuitBreaker_7277Series_7277-2-P_drawing_pdf..pdf
> ).
>
> The aux circuit would be suitable for a CB monitoring system (i.e. Airbus
> a/c display cb status to the crew and annunciate a trip for critical
> systems).
>
> Sorry for the confusion,
> John
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488359#488359
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ov warning light |
| From: | "bobnoffs" <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
hi all,
i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator but in the
end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v 20ma. led, 3
resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it very faintly glows
which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it glows brightly. not
much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness so i have some leeway
up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx batteries. whether or not
i need it is a question but i gotta do something with that hole in the panel.
bob noffs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488374#488374
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>
>hi all,
> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my
> alternator but in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning
> light from a 2.2v 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a
> 13v zenor diode. at 14v it very faintly glows which is good to see
> that it is working. at 15.06 v it glows brightly. not much
> difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness so i have
> some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do
> something with that hole in the panel.
EarthX battery BMS will protect the
batteries. The BMS will not protect
your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
the battery from a runaway alternator,
the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
rate.
Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
for making lots of transistor-toast is
significant . . . but the batteries
will be fine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
hi bob,
yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking a
lot of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is
doing anything to protect transistors.
bob noffs
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>
>
> hi all,
> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator but
> in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v
> 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it
> very faintly glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it
> glows brightly. not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness
> so i have some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do something
> with that hole in the panel.
>
>
> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
> batteries. The BMS will not protect
> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
> the battery from a runaway alternator,
> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
> rate.
>
> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
> for making lots of transistor-toast is
> significant . . . but the batteries
> will be fine.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Bob,
Who are you asking? :-)
Charlie
On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
> hi bob,
> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking
> a lot of questions about this over several months it seems hardly
> anyone is doing anything to protect transistors.
> bob noffs
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> >
> wrote:
>
> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>> >
>>
>> hi all,
>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my
>> alternator but in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a
>> warning light from a 2.2v 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700
>> ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it very faintly glows which is
>> good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it glows brightly. not
>> much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness so i have
>> some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
>> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do
>> something with that hole in the panel.
>
> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
> batteries. The BMS will not protect
> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
> the battery from a runaway alternator,
> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
> rate.
>
> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
> for making lots of transistor-toast is
> significant . . . but the batteries
> will be fine.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
ovm. of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but who
knows which ones. yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by
the 60 amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
bob noffs
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:50 PM Charlie England
wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> Who are you asking? :-)
>
> Charlie
>
> On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
>
> hi bob,
> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking a
> lot of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is
> doing anything to protect transistors.
> bob noffs
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> hi all,
>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator but
>> in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v
>> 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it
>> very faintly glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it
>> glows brightly. not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness
>> so i have some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
>> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do something
>> with that hole in the panel.
>>
>>
>> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
>> batteries. The BMS will not protect
>> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
>> the battery from a runaway alternator,
>> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
>> rate.
>>
>> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
>> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
>> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
>> for making lots of transistor-toast is
>> significant . . . but the batteries
>> will be fine.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_-3003266867060444899_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
OK, your answer illuminates the real question behind my half joking
question: Who do you *trust* to answer your question? If your momma was
like most, at some point she said something like,
"If all your friends decided to jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"
I think from your answer you realize that most of the people you asked, had
no idea what you were even talking about, much less were qualified to
explain *why* they made the choice (because they never even made the
choice). Obviously the guy with the 60A fuse had no clue. Not unlike the
current crop of new parents, who read on Facebook that vaccinations might
be dangerous, so now we've got outbreaks of measles and other really
dangerous diseases putting others (who actually have good sense) at risk,
and costing us millions in otherwise unnecessary health expenses.
Dimbulb governor
So really, shouldn't you be asking those who've had an OV event how their
equipment fared, instead of asking those who've never needed one whether
they have one? Or limit your ask to those who have the technical expertise
to intelligently answer the question why they made their choice? I don't
have one in my current RV-4, but it's a dirt simple day vfr a/c with mags
firing the plugs, and the most expensive electrical item is the cheap, old
comm in the panel. I'm just too busy and lazy to add OV protection to it.
BUT: the RV-7 I'm building will have an electrically dependent engine with
very expensive radios and instruments. You can bet that I already have OV
protection built into both alternators on it.
Charlie
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 7:37 AM bob noffs wrote:
> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
> ovm. of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but who
> knows which ones. yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by
> the 60 amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
> i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
> bob noffs
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:50 PM Charlie England
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Who are you asking? :-)
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
>>
>> hi bob,
>> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking a
>> lot of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is
>> doing anything to protect transistors.
>> bob noffs
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> hi all,
>>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator but
>>> in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v
>>> 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it
>>> very faintly glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it
>>> glows brightly. not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness
>>> so i have some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
>>> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do something
>>> with that hole in the panel.
>>>
>>>
>>> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
>>> batteries. The BMS will not protect
>>> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
>>> the battery from a runaway alternator,
>>> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
>>> rate.
>>>
>>> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
>>> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
>>> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
>>> for making lots of transistor-toast is
>>> significant . . . but the batteries
>>> will be fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Virus-free.
>> www.avast.com
>>
>> <#m_1344822525544774896_m_-3003266867060444899_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
charlie, let's make the distinction between an ovm that is installed into
the a/c system and the one that is supposedly in the alternator. i am sure
some alternators have them but i have never seen any documentation about
which alt. have it and how it is done.
bob noffs
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:23 AM Charlie England wrote:
> OK, your answer illuminates the real question behind my half joking
> question: Who do you *trust* to answer your question? If your momma was
> like most, at some point she said something like,
> "If all your friends decided to jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"
>
> I think from your answer you realize that most of the people you asked,
> had no idea what you were even talking about, much less were qualified to
> explain *why* they made the choice (because they never even made the
> choice). Obviously the guy with the 60A fuse had no clue. Not unlike the
> current crop of new parents, who read on Facebook that vaccinations might
> be dangerous, so now we've got outbreaks of measles and other really
> dangerous diseases putting others (who actually have good sense) at risk,
> and costing us millions in otherwise unnecessary health expenses.
> Dimbulb governor
>
>
> So really, shouldn't you be asking those who've had an OV event how their
> equipment fared, instead of asking those who've never needed one whether
> they have one? Or limit your ask to those who have the technical expertise
> to intelligently answer the question why they made their choice? I don't
> have one in my current RV-4, but it's a dirt simple day vfr a/c with mags
> firing the plugs, and the most expensive electrical item is the cheap, old
> comm in the panel. I'm just too busy and lazy to add OV protection to it.
> BUT: the RV-7 I'm building will have an electrically dependent engine with
> very expensive radios and instruments. You can bet that I already have OV
> protection built into both alternators on it.
>
> Charlie
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 7:37 AM bob noffs wrote:
>
>> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
>> ovm. of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
>> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but who
>> knows which ones. yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by
>> the 60 amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
>> i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
>> bob noffs
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:50 PM Charlie England
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> Who are you asking? :-)
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
>>>
>>> hi bob,
>>> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking a
>>> lot of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is
>>> doing anything to protect transistors.
>>> bob noffs
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> hi all,
>>>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator
>>>> but in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v
>>>> 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it
>>>> very faintly glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it
>>>> glows brightly. not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness
>>>> so i have some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
>>>> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do something
>>>> with that hole in the panel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
>>>> batteries. The BMS will not protect
>>>> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
>>>> the battery from a runaway alternator,
>>>> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
>>>> rate.
>>>>
>>>> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
>>>> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
>>>> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
>>>> for making lots of transistor-toast is
>>>> significant . . . but the batteries
>>>> will be fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob . . .
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Virus-free.
>>> www.avast.com
>>>
>>> <#m_5767426905250244296_m_1344822525544774896_m_-3003266867060444899_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Possible Brownout Protection Device |
Folks,
I just ran across
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DXEU4KA/ref=psdc_10967761_t3_B06XG2KPTS and I
think it might work great as a brownout protection device for my EFIS
during engine start. It is rated at 80W and 5A. I am thinking of wiring in
in parallel with the feed to my normal bus (I only have one bus, no
avionics bus) and energizing it from the starter relay.
I worry that, with an output voltage range of 0.5 to 33V, a failure could
send 33V into my airplane.
What do you think?
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Possible Brownout Protection Device |
Or just use a backup battery and have the advantage of being able to use you
r efis in case of electrical failure... unless you are totally electric ... a
ctually there to to help you get back to terra very firma
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 1, 2019, at 9:04 AM, Art Zemon wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I just ran across https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DXEU4KA/ref=psdc_10967761
_t3_B06XG2KPTS and I think it might work great as a brownout protection devi
ce for my EFIS during engine start. It is rated at 80W and 5A. I am thinking
of wiring in in parallel with the feed to my normal bus (I only have one bu
s, no avionics bus) and energizing it from the starter relay.
>
> I worry that, with an output voltage range of 0.5 to 33V, a failure could s
end 33V into my airplane.
>
> What do you think?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
I'm not sure how to answer; your question seems to be changing with each
post. Bob Nuckolls gave a pretty definitive answer to your original
question. It then evolved to 'what is everyone else doing', to 'do
alternators have built-in OV protection'. To answer the latest question:
it's very unlikely that an alternator that was available for cars more than
10-15 years ago will have OV protection built in, but without mfgr specs,
it's an unknown even with 'this year's model'. Newer cars tend to control
*everything* with the car's computer, even voltage regulation is being done
there on many cars now.
FWIW, using EarthX batteries without some form of OV protection to the
system will just about guarantee that an OV event will fry all your other
electronics. The EarthX will protect itself, and the resulting load dump
will allow the OV to climb to dizzying heights almost instantly.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:55 AM bob noffs wrote:
> charlie, let's make the distinction between an ovm that is installed into
> the a/c system and the one that is supposedly in the alternator. i am sure
> some alternators have them but i have never seen any documentation about
> which alt. have it and how it is done.
> bob noffs
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:23 AM Charlie England
> wrote:
>
>> OK, your answer illuminates the real question behind my half joking
>> question: Who do you *trust* to answer your question? If your momma was
>> like most, at some point she said something like,
>> "If all your friends decided to jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"
>>
>> I think from your answer you realize that most of the people you asked,
>> had no idea what you were even talking about, much less were qualified to
>> explain *why* they made the choice (because they never even made the
>> choice). Obviously the guy with the 60A fuse had no clue. Not unlike the
>> current crop of new parents, who read on Facebook that vaccinations might
>> be dangerous, so now we've got outbreaks of measles and other really
>> dangerous diseases putting others (who actually have good sense) at risk,
>> and costing us millions in otherwise unnecessary health expenses.
>> Dimbulb governor
>>
>>
>> So really, shouldn't you be asking those who've had an OV event how their
>> equipment fared, instead of asking those who've never needed one whether
>> they have one? Or limit your ask to those who have the technical expertise
>> to intelligently answer the question why they made their choice? I don't
>> have one in my current RV-4, but it's a dirt simple day vfr a/c with mags
>> firing the plugs, and the most expensive electrical item is the cheap, old
>> comm in the panel. I'm just too busy and lazy to add OV protection to it.
>> BUT: the RV-7 I'm building will have an electrically dependent engine with
>> very expensive radios and instruments. You can bet that I already have OV
>> protection built into both alternators on it.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 7:37 AM bob noffs wrote:
>>
>>> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
>>> ovm. of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
>>> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but who
>>> knows which ones. yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by
>>> the 60 amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
>>> i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
>>> bob noffs
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:50 PM Charlie England
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>
>>>> Who are you asking? :-)
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>> On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> hi bob,
>>>> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking
>>>> a lot of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is
>>>> doing anything to protect transistors.
>>>> bob noffs
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>>>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> hi all,
>>>>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator
>>>>> but in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v
>>>>> 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it
>>>>> very faintly glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it
>>>>> glows brightly. not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness
>>>>> so i have some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
>>>>> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do something
>>>>> with that hole in the panel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
>>>>> batteries. The BMS will not protect
>>>>> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
>>>>> the battery from a runaway alternator,
>>>>> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
>>>>> rate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
>>>>> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
>>>>> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
>>>>> for making lots of transistor-toast is
>>>>> significant . . . but the batteries
>>>>> will be fine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob . . .
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Virus-free.
>>>> www.avast.com
>>>>
>>>> 3003266867060444899_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
>>>> height="1">
>>>>
>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Whether over-voltage protection that is built into the alternator along side a
regulator counts as over-voltage protection, is somewhat of an existential question.
All alternators with built in regulators have first-instance over-voltage protection,
because thats what the regulator does.
The reason to have additional over-voltage protection is to guard against a failure
in the regulator. If your additional over-voltage protection is included
in the same electronic and physical module as the regulator itself then in some
sense it is now only part of the regulator.
You may then want yet another, external, over-voltage protection to protect against
failure of the OVM in the regulator.
On Apr 1, 2019, at 9:48 AM, bob noffs wrote:
charlie, let's make the distinction between an ovm that is installed into the a/c
system and the one that is supposedly in the alternator. i am sure some alternators
have them but i have never seen any documentation about which alt. have
it and how it is done.
bob noffs
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:23 AM Charlie England wrote:
OK, your answer illuminates the real question behind my half joking question: Who
do you *trust* to answer your question? If your momma was like most, at some
point she said something like,
"If all your friends decided to jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"
I think from your answer you realize that most of the people you asked, had no
idea what you were even talking about, much less were qualified to explain *why*
they made the choice (because they never even made the choice). Obviously the
guy with the 60A fuse had no clue. Not unlike the current crop of new parents,
who read on Facebook that vaccinations might be dangerous, so now we've got
outbreaks of measles and other really dangerous diseases putting others (who
actually have good sense) at risk, and costing us millions in otherwise unnecessary
health expenses.
Dimbulb governor
So really, shouldn't you be asking those who've had an OV event how their equipment
fared, instead of asking those who've never needed one whether they have
one? Or limit your ask to those who have the technical expertise to intelligently
answer the question why they made their choice? I don't have one in my current
RV-4, but it's a dirt simple day vfr a/c with mags firing the plugs, and
the most expensive electrical item is the cheap, old comm in the panel. I'm just
too busy and lazy to add OV protection to it. BUT: the RV-7 I'm building will
have an electrically dependent engine with very expensive radios and instruments.
You can bet that I already have OV protection built into both alternators
on it.
Charlie
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 7:37 AM bob noffs wrote:
hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an ovm. of
10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe that it is
in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but who knows which
ones. yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by the 60 amp inline
fuse on his alternator output.
i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
bob noffs
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:50 PM Charlie England wrote:
Hi Bob,
Who are you asking? :-)
Charlie
On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
> hi bob,
> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking a lot
of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is doing anything
to protect transistors.
> bob noffs
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>>
>> hi all,
>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator but in
the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v 20ma. led,
3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it very faintly
glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it glows brightly.
not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness so i have some leeway
up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx batteries. whether or not
i need it is a question but i gotta do something with that hole in the panel.
>
> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
> batteries. The BMS will not protect
> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
> the battery from a runaway alternator,
> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
> rate.
>
> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
> for making lots of transistor-toast is
> significant . . . but the batteries
> will be fine.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
3003266867060444899_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1">
Virus-free. www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 07:30 AM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
ovm.
. . . why do you suppose that is?
>of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
>that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but
>who knows which ones.
believing is not knowing, knowing is not
understanding . .
> yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by the 60
> amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
An alternator is incapable of opening its
own b-lead protection under ANY circumstances.
He is mistaken.
>=C2 i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
Me too . . . but then making good decisions
founded on lessons-learned and good science
are almost never made by taking a poll.
The reason this forum exists is to gather
and share the-best-we-know-how-to-do
based on understanding. If someone champions
a particular philosophy, he/she should be
capable of teaching it. Failing that,
the philosophy is suspect.
Just for grins, I checked out the latest
edition of 14CFR23 and got a surprise.
The 'bible' of small aircraft design
has be totally updated to a performance
based specification . . . almost zero
'hard' requirements for selection or
operation of components. For example,
here are the electrical system requirements
in their entirety:
=A723.2525 System power generation, storage, and distribution.
The power generation, storage, and distribution for any system must be
designed and installed to=97
(a) Supply the power required for operation of connected loads during all
intended operating conditions;
(b) Ensure no single failure or malfunction of any one power supply,
distribution system, or other utilization system will prevent the system
from
supplying the essential loads required for continued safe flight and
landing;
and
(c) Have enough capacity, if the primary source fails, to supply essential
loads, including non-continuous essential loads for the time needed to
complete the function required for continued safe flight and landing.
None of the above negates or replaces legacy
design goals for minimizing risk but it
does open doors for creative/innovative
designs. The downside is that the applicant
must produce volumes of justification for their
proposed design. The task can become a snarl
of snakes when BOTH contemporary authors and
reviewers of the written word are 'graduates' of
modern school systems.
My last tour of duty with a TC aviation
design and certification effort demonstrated
this condition in spades . . .
For our purposes, 23.2525(B) says it all.
If anyone proposes that timely, automatic
ov protection is not necessary, then
JUSTIFY that assertion with a lucid and
experimentally verifiable narration.
Back when my jobs were really fun, I
had to stand in front of a committee
of my customers and peers to pitch a
proposal. This COULD be a harrowing
experience but it was never a 'bad'
one. You either (a) came out with a
validation of your art and science or
(b) a bad idea was prevented from going
to production. This was a Win-Win
either way.
I captured the latest-n-greatest
14CFR23 for those who are interested . . .
https://tinyurl.com/y4y9qotk
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
hi all,
when i started this thread i didn't really have a question, more like an
observation of how little ov protection is understood and the vast
numbers of opinions of what is going on with an ov condition and what it
takes to stop it. if i would ask one question which i think bob just
answered it is '' can a modern alternator create overvoltage that the
alternators own circuitry cannot prevent, requiring disconnecting the p
lead from the a/c system?''
bob noffs
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 12:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 07:30 AM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
> ovm.
>
>
> . . . why do you suppose that is?
>
> of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but
> who knows which ones.
>
>
> believing is not knowing, knowing is not
> understanding . .
>
> yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by the 60
> amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
>
>
> An alternator is incapable of opening its
> own b-lead protection under ANY circumstances.
> He is mistaken.
>
> =C3=82 i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
>
>
> Me too . . . but then making good decisions
> founded on lessons-learned and good science
> are almost never made by taking a poll.
>
>
> The reason this forum exists is to gather
> and share the-best-we-know-how-to-do
> based on understanding. If someone champions
> a particular philosophy, he/she should be
> capable of teaching it. Failing that,
> the philosophy is suspect.
>
> Just for grins, I checked out the latest
> edition of 14CFR23 and got a surprise.
> The 'bible' of small aircraft design
> has be totally updated to a performance
> based specification . . . almost zero
> 'hard' requirements for selection or
> operation of components. For example,
> here are the electrical system requirements
> in their entirety:
>
>
> *=C2=A723.2525 System power generation, storage, and distribution. The po
wer
> generation, storage, and distribution for any system must be designed and
> installed to=94 (a) Supply the power required for operation of conn
ected
> loads during all intended operating conditions; (b) Ensure no single
> failure or malfunction of any one power supply, distribution system, or
> other utilization system will prevent the system from supplying the
> essential loads required for continued safe flight and landing; and (c)
> Have enough capacity, if the primary source fails, to supply essential
> loads, including non-continuous essential loads for the time needed to
> complete the function required for continued safe flight and landing. *
> None of the above negates or replaces legacy
> design goals for minimizing risk but it
> does open doors for creative/innovative
> designs. The downside is that the applicant
> must produce volumes of justification for their
> proposed design. The task can become a snarl
> of snakes when BOTH contemporary authors and
> reviewers of the written word are 'graduates' of
> modern school systems.
>
> My last tour of duty with a TC aviation
> design and certification effort demonstrated
> this condition in spades . . .
>
> For our purposes, 23.2525(B) says it all.
> If anyone proposes that timely, automatic
> ov protection is not necessary, then
> JUSTIFY that assertion with a lucid and
> experimentally verifiable narration.
>
> Back when my jobs were really fun, I
> had to stand in front of a committee
> of my customers and peers to pitch a
> proposal. This COULD be a harrowing
> experience but it was never a 'bad'
> one. You either (a) came out with a
> validation of your art and science or
> (b) a bad idea was prevented from going
> to production. This was a Win-Win
> either way.
>
> I captured the latest-n-greatest
> 14CFR23 for those who are interested . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4y9qotk
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Then yes, a modern alternator is quite capable of creating an
overvoltage event that its own circuitry cannot prevent. As others have
indicated, even if the alternator has 'built in' OV protection, that
gives rise to the risk that the same fault that caused the OV condition
could also take out the OV protection circuit. The rest of the answer
depends on whether you have an internally or externally regulated
alternator. Bob Nu. justifiably favors external regulation, and with
that, you can simply interrupt the field voltage supply (5A CB). With
internally regulated alts (my personal choice to 'compromise'), you
will need to interrupt the B lead, which requires a heavy duty
relay/contactor. The OV module can control that relay/contactor, again
with a low current CB.
Charlie
On 4/1/2019 2:15 PM, bob noffs wrote:
> hi all,
> when i started this thread i didn't really have a question, more
> like an observation of how little ov protection is understood and
> the vast numbers of opinions of what is going on with an ov condition
> and what it takes to stop it. if i would ask one question which i
> think bob just answered it is '' can a modern alternator create
> overvoltage that the alternators own circuitry cannot prevent,
> requiring disconnecting the p lead from the a/c system?''
> bob noffs
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 12:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> >
> wrote:
>
> At 07:30 AM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of
>> using an ovm.
>
> . . . why do you suppose that is?
>
>> of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
>> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some
>> cases but
>> who knows which ones.
>
> believing is not knowing, knowing is not
> understanding . .
>
>> yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by the 60
>> amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
>
> An alternator is incapable of opening its
> own b-lead protection under ANY circumstances.
> He is mistaken.
>
>> i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
>
> Me too . . . but then making good decisions
> founded on lessons-learned and good science
> are almost never made by taking a poll.
>
>
> The reason this forum exists is to gather
> and share the-best-we-know-how-to-do
> based on understanding. If someone champions
> a particular philosophy, he/she should be
> capable of teaching it. Failing that,
> the philosophy is suspect.
>
> Just for grins, I checked out the latest
> edition of 14CFR23 and got a surprise.
> The 'bible' of small aircraft design
> has be totally updated to a performance
> based specification . . . almost zero
> 'hard' requirements for selection or
> operation of components. For example,
> here are the electrical system requirements
> in their entirety:
>
> */23.2525 System power generation, storage, and distribution.
> The power generation, storage, and distribution for any system must be
> designed and installed to
>
> (a) Supply the power required for operation of connected loads
> during all
> intended operating conditions;
>
> (b) Ensure no single failure or malfunction of any one power supply,
> distribution system, or other utilization system will prevent the
> system from
> supplying the essential loads required for continued safe flight
> and landing;
> and
>
> (c) Have enough capacity, if the primary source fails, to supply
> essential
> loads, including non-continuous essential loads for the time needed to
> complete the function required for continued safe flight and landing.
>
> /* None of the above negates or replaces legacy
> design goals for minimizing risk but it
> does open doors for creative/innovative
> designs. The downside is that the applicant
> must produce volumes of justification for their
> proposed design. The task can become a snarl
> of snakes when BOTH contemporary authors and
> reviewers of the written word are 'graduates' of
> modern school systems.
>
> My last tour of duty with a TC aviation
> design and certification effort demonstrated
> this condition in spades . . .
>
> For our purposes, 23.2525(B) says it all.
> If anyone proposes that timely, automatic
> ov protection is not necessary, then
> JUSTIFY that assertion with a lucid and
> experimentally verifiable narration.
>
> Back when my jobs were really fun, I
> had to stand in front of a committee
> of my customers and peers to pitch a
> proposal. This COULD be a harrowing
> experience but it was never a 'bad'
> one. You either (a) came out with a
> validation of your art and science or
> (b) a bad idea was prevented from going
> to production. This was a Win-Win
> either way.
>
> I captured the latest-n-greatest
> 14CFR23 for those who are interested . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4y9qotk
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
In the Klixon catalogue there are part codes for dual coil circuit breakers that
can trip the main (B lead) breaker if the secondary coil senses an overvoltage
(or current, depending on what part you buy).
For the life of me I cant find anyone that stocks such a thing, but it would be
a dead easy way to fit or retrofit OV protection - anyone interested in trying
to get a bulk order together?
On Apr 1, 2019, at 4:51 PM, Charlie England wrote:
Then yes, a modern alternator is quite capable of creating an overvoltage event
that its own circuitry cannot prevent. As others have indicated, even if the
alternator has 'built in' OV protection, that gives rise to the risk that the
same fault that caused the OV condition could also take out the OV protection
circuit. The rest of the answer depends on whether you have an internally or externally
regulated alternator. Bob Nu. justifiably favors external regulation,
and with that, you can simply interrupt the field voltage supply (5A CB). With
internally regulated alts (my personal choice to 'compromise'), you will need
to interrupt the B lead, which requires a heavy duty relay/contactor. The
OV module can control that relay/contactor, again with a low current CB.
Charlie
On 4/1/2019 2:15 PM, bob noffs wrote:
> hi all,
> when i started this thread i didn't really have a question, more like an observation
of how little ov protection is understood and the vast numbers of
opinions of what is going on with an ov condition and what it takes to stop it.
if i would ask one question which i think bob just answered it is '' can a modern
alternator create overvoltage that the alternators own circuitry cannot
prevent, requiring disconnecting the p lead from the a/c system?''
> bob noffs
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 12:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
> At 07:30 AM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an ovm.
>
> . . . why do you suppose that is?
>
>> of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
>> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but
>> who knows which ones.
>
> believing is not knowing, knowing is not
> understanding . .
>
>> yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by the 60
>> amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
>
> An alternator is incapable of opening its
> own b-lead protection under ANY circumstances.
> He is mistaken.
>
>> i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
>
> Me too . . . but then making good decisions
> founded on lessons-learned and good science
> are almost never made by taking a poll.
>
>
>
> The reason this forum exists is to gather
> and share the-best-we-know-how-to-do
> based on understanding. If someone champions
> a particular philosophy, he/she should be
> capable of teaching it. Failing that,
> the philosophy is suspect.
>
> Just for grins, I checked out the latest
> edition of 14CFR23 and got a surprise.
> The 'bible' of small aircraft design
> has be totally updated to a performance
> based specification . . . almost zero
> 'hard' requirements for selection or
> operation of components. For example,
> here are the electrical system requirements
> in their entirety:
>
> 23.2525 System power generation, storage, and distribution.
> The power generation, storage, and distribution for any system must be
> designed and installed to
>
> (a) Supply the power required for operation of connected loads during all
> intended operating conditions;
>
> (b) Ensure no single failure or malfunction of any one power supply,
> distribution system, or other utilization system will prevent the system from
> supplying the essential loads required for continued safe flight and landing;
> and
>
> (c) Have enough capacity, if the primary source fails, to supply essential
> loads, including non-continuous essential loads for the time needed to
> complete the function required for continued safe flight and landing.
>
> None of the above negates or replaces legacy
> design goals for minimizing risk but it
> does open doors for creative/innovative
> designs. The downside is that the applicant
> must produce volumes of justification for their
> proposed design. The task can become a snarl
> of snakes when BOTH contemporary authors and
> reviewers of the written word are 'graduates' of
> modern school systems.
>
> My last tour of duty with a TC aviation
> design and certification effort demonstrated
> this condition in spades . . .
>
> For our purposes, 23.2525(B) says it all.
> If anyone proposes that timely, automatic
> ov protection is not necessary, then
> JUSTIFY that assertion with a lucid and
> experimentally verifiable narration.
>
> Back when my jobs were really fun, I
> had to stand in front of a committee
> of my customers and peers to pitch a
> proposal. This COULD be a harrowing
> experience but it was never a 'bad'
> one. You either (a) came out with a
> validation of your art and science or
> (b) a bad idea was prevented from going
> to production. This was a Win-Win
> either way.
>
> I captured the latest-n-greatest
> 14CFR23 for those who are interested . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4y9qotk
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Virus-free. www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 02:15 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>hi all,
>=C2 when i started this thread i didn't really have a question, more
>like an observation of how little ov protection is understood and
>the vast numbers of opinions of what is going on with an ov condition
>and what it takes to stop it.
>
>if i would ask one question which i think bob just answered it is
>"can a modern alternator create overvoltage that the alternators
>own circuitry cannot prevent, requiring disconnecting the p lead
>from the a/c system?"
Due diligence to the doctrine of FMEA
dictates that we ASSUME that such
a failure can occur. Intuitively,
we can deduce that a piece of electronics
with LOTS of parts and total control
over field voltage could step in
a gopher hole and light off a bad day
in the cockpit.
The condition applies irrespective of whether
the regulator is internal or external
to the alternator. Independent ov protection
is indicated even when the alternator's
advertising literature calls out some
kind of ov protection. This is
necessary because lacking specific
data for how the stock regulator
accomplishes ov protection, we
cannot know that it's independent
of voltage regulation tasks.
When we built ov protection into the
B&C products, ov/lv monitoring
and management was totally independent
of voltage regulation. Since we
designed it, we KNEW that independence
was built in.
To be sure, built in regulators
ARE quite reliable. Failure rates
are low. But if stock internal
regulators had the kind of reliability
demanded by air-transport certification
standards, then there wouldn't be
so many of the things offered as
spares!
https://tinyurl.com/yxtogftx
The best way to bring a runaway
alternator to heal is open the FIELD
supply path. B&C and PlanePower
products modify stock automotive
products to implement EXTERNAL
control of field supply. This
gives the panel mounted alternator
switch absolute control over
alternator output while providing
a place to apply low-current
ov protection as well.
Breaking the b-lead per Z-24
will get 'er done but it's not
preferred. Doing the mod to
incorporate external regulation
and ov management is not difficult.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 03:55 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>In the Klixon catalogue there are part codes for
>dual coil circuit breakers that can trip the
>main (B lead) breaker if the secondary coil
>senses an overvoltage (or current, depending on what part you buy).
>
>For the life of me I can=99t find anyone that
>stocks such a thing, but it would be a dead easy
>way to fit or retrofit OV protection - anyone
>interested in trying to get a bulk order together
I recall seeing these things in some
catalogs wayyyy back when but one look
at the price and the bloom-was-off-the-
rose as they say.
The really cool way to open the b-lead
is with a processor controlled contactor
in series with b-lead paired with a big-momma-FET
in parallel with the b-lead. You drop
the coil current on the contactor some
interval of time before you energize
the FET to put a dead short on the alternator
B-lead. This 'crowbars' the b-lead to
ground and deprives the field supply
of its power source. The 'spike' in the
FET is only slightly greater than the
alternator's output rating and lasts
for micro-seconds.
After the alternator is brought to
heel, current flowing in the shunt
FET is just a couple of amps generated
by residual field flux.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
> The really cool way to open the b-lead
> is with a processor controlled contactor
> in series with b-lead paired with a big-momma-FET
> in parallel with the b-lead. You drop
> the coil current on the contactor some
> interval of time before you energize
> the FET to put a dead short on the alternator
> B-lead. This 'crowbars' the b-lead to
> ground and deprives the field supply
> of its power source. The 'spike' in the
> FET is only slightly greater than the
> alternator's output rating and lasts
> for micro-seconds.
>
> After the alternator is brought to
> heel, current flowing in the shunt
> FET is just a couple of amps generated
> by residual field flux.
See https://tinyurl.com/mucjhgs
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
| From: | Bevan <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
The proper way is to measure the sustained current draw for that pitot
(at the voltage the alternator will put out, ie 14volts), then size a
wire appropriately taking into consideration the total length of the
run, then select a breaker to protect that size of wire. Anything else
is just guessing.
Bevan
On 3/29/2019 9:36 AM, William Hunter wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Does anybody happen to have a manual or specifications sheet for a
> Piper Arrow pitot-static mast?
>
> What amp rating circuit breaker should I use to protect this circuit
> (I am using 12 AWG Tefzel wire)?
>
> I have one of these installed on my experimental airplane and I would
> like to have some kind of instruction sheet for each component
> installed and this is one of the last items I do not have an
> instruction sheet on.
>
> Thanks!!!
>
> Bill Hunter
>
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 15:23 Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> >
> wrote:
>
> The latest/greatest specimin in the
> stable of Battery Tender wall warts
> came in.
>
> I dug around in the shop and came up
> with an SVLA battery out of a portable
> air compressor that showed about 9v
> open circuit. When impressed with 14.2
> volts, charge current stabilized at
> about 0.4 amps and would not go any
> lower. After being on charge for about
> 5 hours, I loaded it with 1A and the
> terminal voltage fell to about 11 volts.
>
> I.e. capacity of zero.
>
> I deduce that no cells are shorted.
> I hooked it to the new Battery
> Tender and invoked the maintenance
> mode.
>
> Here are the pertinent pages from the
> users manual.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Battery_Tender.pdf
>
>
> With a 'scope hooked to the battery we
> see this:
> Emacs!
>
> Yeah, it 'hammers' the battery with 25uS, 16v pulses
> probably 2A or better at an 8.2KHz rate.
>
> I saw no signals that suggested credence for the
> magic 3.26Mhz 'resonant frequency' of lead sulfate . . .
> which I think is bogus. How any physical mass of
> those dimensions might offer resonance at a
> wavelength of 97 meters begs some light-
> footed explanation.
>
> Nonetheless, the product does have a 'hammer'
> mode. The literature suggests that a badly sulfated
> battery may require weeks of rejuvenation . . . this
> test article is in pretty bad shape so we'll
> let 'er cook.
>
> BTW I see that BatteryMinder has come out with
> a 'desulfator' product.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4682h48
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
Bevan Tomm
Senior Technician
Fraser Valley Alarm Services Inc.
bevan(at)fvas.bc.ca
office 604-854-2994
Fax 604-852-6408
---
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Magnetometer wiring |
| From: | "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com> |
I will placing a magnetometer, LED Navigation lights, and LED Strobe Lights in
my wings. Is it common and necessary to separate the Magnetometer wire bundle
from all other wiring or can all of these be run together in one bundle?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488421#488421
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Bob said "Breaking the b-lead per Z-24 will get 'er done but it's not
preferred."
My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not preferred."
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 2:27 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> The really cool way to open the b-lead
> is with a processor controlled contactor
> in series with b-lead paired with a big-momma-FET
> in parallel with the b-lead. You drop
> the coil current on the contactor some
> interval of time before you energize
> the FET to put a dead short on the alternator
> B-lead. This 'crowbars' the b-lead to
> ground and deprives the field supply
> of its power source. The 'spike' in the
> FET is only slightly greater than the
> alternator's output rating and lasts
> for micro-seconds.
>
> After the alternator is brought to
> heel, current flowing in the shunt
> FET is just a couple of amps generated
> by residual field flux.
>
>
> See https://tinyurl.com/mucjhgs
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Possible Brownout Protection Device |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
There needs to be a diode in the existing main power bus to prevent the DC-DC converter
current from flowing to the starter.
Otherwise, that DC-DC converter will be unable to maintain 12 volts.
Depending on load, the DC-DC converter with a 5 amp rating might have trouble
maintaining 12 volts, let alone putting out 33 volts.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488423#488423
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Shorting the B-lead through a FET is also going to pull the main bus to zero, as
well as the battery, no?
On Apr 1, 2019, at 6:22 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
> The really cool way to open the b-lead
> is with a processor controlled contactor
> in series with b-lead paired with a big-momma-FET
> in parallel with the b-lead. You drop
> the coil current on the contactor some
> interval of time before you energize
> the FET to put a dead short on the alternator
> B-lead. This 'crowbars' the b-lead to
> ground and deprives the field supply
> of its power source. The 'spike' in the
> FET is only slightly greater than the
> alternator's output rating and lasts
> for micro-seconds.
>
> After the alternator is brought to
> heel, current flowing in the shunt
> FET is just a couple of amps generated
> by residual field flux.
See https://tinyurl.com/mucjhgs
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> "My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not preferred."
Because the B-Lead current is 10 times the field current. Heavy current will
require a heavy duty relay or contactor.
Field current can be interrupted with a small relay or circuit breaker along with
solid state components
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488424#488424
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetometer wiring |
Brooks,
I don't know the specifics of what you are doing but here are a couple of
thoughts which might guide you:
- Follow the manufacturers' recommendations for wiring.
- Magnetometers need to be installed away from anything which has a
magnetic field (steel and iron and magnets in things like servo motors).
Their wiring is not particularly sensitive.
- The wiring for strobes, even LED strobes, may require shielding.
Follow the manufacturers' recommendations. (Did I say that already? =F0
=9F=98=8E)
In my Bede BD-4C, I put the magnetometer in the fuselage, far away from
everything. The strobes are in the wingtips. There are no lights near the
magnetometer.
-- Art Z.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 6:22 PM bcone1381 wrote:
>
>
> I will placing a magnetometer, LED Navigation lights, and LED Strobe
> Lights in my wings. Is it common and necessary to separate the Magnetomet
er
> wire bundle from all other wiring or can all of these be run together in
> one bundle?
>
> --------
> Brooks Cone
> Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Thanks
Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, 15:51 user9253 wrote:
>
>
> > "My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not
> preferred."
> Because the B-Lead current is 10 times the field current. Heavy current
> will require a heavy duty relay or contactor.
> Field current can be interrupted with a small relay or circuit breaker
> along with solid state components
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488424#488424
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
At 05:32 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>The proper way is to measure the sustained
>current draw for that pitot (at the voltage the
>alternator will put out, ie 14volts), then size
>a wire appropriately taking into consideration
>the total length of the run, then select a
>breaker to protect that size of wire.=C2 Anything else is just guessing.
Pitot tube heaters are a special breed
of cat. I published a performance narrative
on a popular pitot tube about 13 years
ago . . .
https://tinyurl.com/y78oc7z3
In this document I describe the prolonged
and pronounced inrush currents impressed
on the system during during warm up.
A 150W (typical) tube will draw right
at 10A on a 14V airplane. Warmup
from cold will start at about 2x
that value and take tens of seconds.
Extended warm-up loading may well nuisance
trip a breaker rated for wire carrying
running currents.
Just for grins, I suggest your
12AWG wire protected with a 20A
breaker would be judiciously
oversized.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 06:17 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>Bob said "Breaking the b-lead per Z-24=C2 will get
>'er done but it's not=C2 preferred."
>My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not preferred."
Z-24 was created to accommodate builders
wanting to install Van's favorite, internally
regulated alternator. Some time after the
drawing was published, an RV builder
reported having killed his alternator
by cycling the on/off switch with the engine
running.
RPM, loads, and numbers of cycles were
not known. But it was predictable that
doing a b-lead disconnect under load
produces a spectacular load-dump. A
transient that trashed the built-in
regulator.
Some time later I came to understand
that Van was selling remaned alternators
from sources unknown. Later still
I visited Motor Car Parts of America
facilities in Tijuana, Mexico followed
by a meeting with their chief engineer
in San Diego. I witnessed deliberate
full-load b-lead disconnects that
produced flashes of light that totally
swamped my video camera. Suffice it
to say that event after 6 or 7 such events
in a row, the regulators were undamaged.
This led me to suppose that the
load-dump damage to the RV builder's
alternator was not something that
should be expected. Nonetheless,
Z-24 got 'black listed'.
In fact, Z-24 WILL perform as advertised
with minimal or zero risk to an
alternator assembled with the same
skills demonstrated by MCPA (See chapter
on alternators in the 'Connection).
There's a down-side to
Z-24 (interim). When a runaway
alternator b-lead is disconnected from
the airplane, it STILL drives its
own field to destruction. But
you would have to tear it down
just to replace the regulator . . .
the smoked field winding is a
feature offered at no extra charge.
Some time later, I conceived the crowbar
disconnect scheme that would not only
unhook the runaway alternator, it would
bring it to heel and protect the
field windings.
BOTH b-lead disconnect techniques
are rather in-elegant compared to
legacy field supply disconnect methods.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 06:44 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>Shorting the B-lead through a FET is also going to pull the main bus
>to zero, as well as the battery, no?
No . . . you FIRST disconnect it
through the contactor followed by
crowbar to ground LATER.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Thanks.
Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, 16:43 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 06:17 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
> Bob said "Breaking the b-lead per Z-24=C3=82 will get 'er done but it's n
ot=C3=82
> preferred."
> My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not preferred.
"
>
>
> Z-24 was created to accommodate builders
> wanting to install Van's favorite, internally
> regulated alternator. Some time after the
> drawing was published, an RV builder
> reported having killed his alternator
> by cycling the on/off switch with the engine
> running.
>
> RPM, loads, and numbers of cycles were
> not known. But it was predictable that
> doing a b-lead disconnect under load
> produces a spectacular load-dump. A
> transient that trashed the built-in
> regulator.
>
> Some time later I came to understand
> that Van was selling remaned alternators
> from sources unknown. Later still
> I visited Motor Car Parts of America
> facilities in Tijuana, Mexico followed
> by a meeting with their chief engineer
> in San Diego. I witnessed deliberate
> full-load b-lead disconnects that
> produced flashes of light that totally
> swamped my video camera. Suffice it
> to say that event after 6 or 7 such events
> in a row, the regulators were undamaged.
>
> This led me to suppose that the
> load-dump damage to the RV builder's
> alternator was not something that
> should be expected. Nonetheless,
> Z-24 got 'black listed'.
>
> In fact, Z-24 WILL perform as advertised
> with minimal or zero risk to an
> alternator assembled with the same
> skills demonstrated by MCPA (See chapter
> on alternators in the 'Connection).
>
> There's a down-side to
> Z-24 (interim). When a runaway
> alternator b-lead is disconnected from
> the airplane, it STILL drives its
> own field to destruction. But
> you would have to tear it down
> just to replace the regulator . . .
> the smoked field winding is a
> feature offered at no extra charge.
>
> Some time later, I conceived the crowbar
> disconnect scheme that would not only
> unhook the runaway alternator, it would
> bring it to heel and protect the
> field windings.
>
> BOTH b-lead disconnect techniques
> are rather in-elegant compared to
> legacy field supply disconnect methods.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
In that case, why not put something across the contactor to sense the developing
voltage difference when the contactor opens to trigger the FET (or how about
an SCR?)
You cold develop the same circuit to wire across the B lead CB to dump the field
coil current when the CB is manually pulled too, relieving any effects of a
load dump.
On Apr 1, 2019, at 8:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 06:44 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
> Shorting the B-lead through a FET is also going to pull the main bus to zero,
as well as the battery, no?
No . . . you FIRST disconnect it
through the contactor followed by
crowbar to ground LATER.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 08:21 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>In that case, why not put something across the contactor to sense
>the developing voltage difference when the contactor opens to trigger the FET
The proposed Z-24 ov control module
does monitor first opening of the
contactor to deduce when the FET
gets energized.
> (or how about an SCR?)
FET has lower on-resistance which takes
B-lead to level that won't excite the
field. A turned-on SCR has about 1.5
volts forward drop which WOULD seriously
excite the field . . . not good.
This would produce considerable heat
in the SCR. A power FET would suffer
no such abuse.
>You cold develop the same circuit to wire across the B
>lead CB to dump the field coil current when the CB is
>manually pulled too, relieving any effects of a load dump.
B-lead breakers should not be manually
pulled except for trouble shooting
on the ground and certainly not
while the alternator is under load.
In fact, there should not even BE a b-lead
breaker . . . b-lead protection has
been handled by current limiters under
the cowl for decades in TC aircraft.
Pulling the b-lead breaker on a loaded
alternator, whether internally or
externally regulated, is almost certain
to start a fire in the breaker . . . it
gets hot, smokes and smells really bad.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Unfortunately for me I have a TC aircraft (it has at least three type certificates
from EASA, the FAA and Transport Canada) with a Bosch 28V automotive alternator
with built-in regulation. There is _no_ off-board OV regulation.
The Approved Flight Manual (I stress _approved_!) procedure for an excessive charging"
condition is Alternator Circuit Breaker - PULL
So, Im looking for a mitigation strategy for me (and for my ab initial students!)
who will be flying the aircraft. :-)
On Apr 1, 2019, at 9:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
Pulling the b-lead breaker on a loaded
alternator, whether internally or
externally regulated, is almost certain
to start a fire in the breaker . . . it
gets hot, smokes and smells really bad.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 4/1/2019 7:37 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 06:17 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>> Bob said "Breaking the b-lead per Z-24 will get 'er done but it's
>> not preferred."
>> My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not
>> preferred."
>
> Z-24 was created to accommodate builders
> wanting to install Van's favorite, internally
> regulated alternator. Some time after the
> drawing was published, an RV builder
> reported having killed his alternator
> by cycling the on/off switch with the engine
> running.
>
> RPM, loads, and numbers of cycles were
> not known. But it was predictable that
> doing a b-lead disconnect under load
> produces a spectacular load-dump. A
> transient that trashed the built-in
> regulator.
>
> Some time later I came to understand
> that Van was selling remaned alternators
> from sources unknown. Later still
> I visited Motor Car Parts of America
> facilities in Tijuana, Mexico followed
> by a meeting with their chief engineer
> in San Diego. I witnessed deliberate
> full-load b-lead disconnects that
> produced flashes of light that totally
> swamped my video camera. Suffice it
> to say that event after 6 or 7 such events
> in a row, the regulators were undamaged.
>
> This led me to suppose that the
> load-dump damage to the RV builder's
> alternator was not something that
> should be expected. Nonetheless,
> Z-24 got 'black listed'.
>
> In fact, Z-24 WILL perform as advertised
> with minimal or zero risk to an
> alternator assembled with the same
> skills demonstrated by MCPA (See chapter
> on alternators in the 'Connection).
>
> There's a down-side to
> Z-24 (interim). When a runaway
> alternator b-lead is disconnected from
> the airplane, it STILL drives its
> own field to destruction. But
> you would have to tear it down
> just to replace the regulator . . .
> the smoked field winding is a
> feature offered at no extra charge.
>
> Some time later, I conceived the crowbar
> disconnect scheme that would not only
> unhook the runaway alternator, it would
> bring it to heel and protect the
> field windings.
>
> BOTH b-lead disconnect techniques
> are rather in-elegant compared to
> legacy field supply disconnect methods.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
That's the logic I used when accepting my 'compromise'. I figure that if
my IR alternator goes OV and triggers the crowbar, and then the rest of
the alt goes to toast, I don't care, because I'll be buying an entire
new $70 alternator, anyway. And I'll avoid the old Van's load dump issue
by following the advice of the He Haw Doctor: If it hurts when you do
that, DON'T DO THAT.
And the $70 alternator cost explains my $600 inelegant compromise. :-)
Charlie
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
Bob,
If I measure the resistance of my pitot heater elements at room temperature
and calculate the current thru each of these two resistances in parallel
when driven by a 14V supply, how far off am I for deducing peak inrush
current in each circuit and thus wire size and breaker rating?
Pat
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 6:24 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 05:32 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
> The proper way is to measure the sustained current draw for that pitot (a
t
> the voltage the alternator will put out, ie 14volts), then size a wire
> appropriately taking into consideration the total length of the run, then
> select a breaker to protect that size of wire.=C3=82 Anything else is ju
st
> guessing.
>
>
> Pitot tube heaters are a special breed
> of cat. I published a performance narrative
> on a popular pitot tube about 13 years
> ago . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y78oc7z3
>
> In this document I describe the prolonged
> and pronounced inrush currents impressed
> on the system during during warm up.
>
> A 150W (typical) tube will draw right
> at 10A on a 14V airplane. Warmup
> from cold will start at about 2x
> that value and take tens of seconds.
> Extended warm-up loading may well nuisance
> trip a breaker rated for wire carrying
> running currents.
>
> Just for grins, I suggest your
> 12AWG wire protected with a 20A
> breaker would be judiciously
> oversized.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
At 11:40 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>Bob,
>If I measure the resistance of my pitot heater
>elements at room temperature and calculate the
>current thru each of these two resistances in
>parallel when driven by a 14V supply, how far
>off am I for deducing peak inrush current in
>each circuit and thus wire size and breaker rating?=C2
Two resistances? Is this a 12/24v
device? I've never seen one but that
would kind of make sense.
Yes, but they are LOW resistances.
You need to do the 4-wire method
to measure them accurately. I think
you're fine with 20A/12AWG . . . plenty
robust, not overkill.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 08:42 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>Unfortunately for me I have a TC aircraft (it
>has at least three type certificates from EASA,
>the FAA and Transport Canada) with a Bosch 28V
>automotive alternator with built-in regulation.
>There is _no_ off-board OV regulation.
>
>The Approved Flight Manual (I stress
>_approved_!) procedure for an =9Cexcessive
>charging" condition is =9CAlternator Circuit Breaker - PULL=9D
>
>So, I=99m looking for a mitigation strategy for
>me (and for my ab initial students!) who will be flying the aircraft.
I'm astounded . . . . what can I say?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetometer wiring |
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
I don't know about "common" but I would test it before you get things
bundled up too tightly. Closely follow the manufacturer's
recommendations on shielding and if they have diagnostics, use them. I
had a lot of trouble with my LED strobes interfering with the
magnetometer even though my magnetometer is in the tail. My plane was
built with standard Whelen strobes and I replaced those with Aveo LED. I
imagined LEDs would be electrically quieter but they're not. When I
installed the magnetometer I ended up having to replace all the strobe
wire and being very careful to make sure everything was securely
grounded as the manufacturers said to. The magnetometer still registers
every pulse but it's within allowable tolerances now.
--Rick
On 4/1/2019 7:07 PM, bcone1381 wrote:
>
> I will placing a magnetometer, LED Navigation lights, and LED Strobe Lights in
my wings. Is it common and necessary to separate the Magnetometer wire bundle
from all other wiring or can all of these be run together in one bundle?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
Do you think the weather might make a difference?
Inrush current when switched on at -20C might be higher than inrush current at
room temperature.
On Apr 2, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 11:40 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
> Bob,
> If I measure the resistance of my pitot heater elements at room temperature and
calculate the current thru each of these two resistances in parallel when driven
by a 14V supply, how far off am I for deducing peak inrush current in each
circuit and thus wire size and breaker rating?
Two resistances? Is this a 12/24v
device? I've never seen one but that
would kind of make sense.
Yes, but they are LOW resistances.
You need to do the 4-wire method
to measure them accurately. I think
you're fine with 20A/12AWG . . . plenty
robust, not overkill.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
I dont know!
But Im keeping my ear open for an easy retro-fit (and easily approved) mitigation.
Replacing the B-lead breaker with one that has built-in OV protection seemed
an easy half-win.
On Apr 2, 2019, at 8:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 08:42 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
> Unfortunately for me I have a TC aircraft (it has at least three type certificates
from EASA, the FAA and Transport Canada) with a Bosch 28V automotive alternator
with built-in regulation. There is _no_ off-board OV regulation.
>
> The Approved Flight Manual (I stress _approved_!) procedure for an excessive
charging" condition is Alternator Circuit Breaker - PULL
>
> So, Im looking for a mitigation strategy for me (and for my ab initial students!)
who will be flying the aircraft.
I'm astounded . . . . what can I say?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
The pitot head is from a Cherokee, looks like this
[image: pitot mast DSCN0049.JPG]
Here's a picture of the wiring inside the wing during construction
[image: pitot heat DSCN0053.JPG]
which looks possibly like two circuits in parallel.
The wing is closed up now, so I can only investigate at the wing root where
there are two wires for pitot heat, let's call them A and B. The
resistances I measure (with a multimeter) are
A to ground 2.9 Ohm
B to ground 3.7 Ohm
A to B (i.e., in series) 6.4 Ohm
In trying to understand what is going on I dug into the internet and found
a PA-28 service manual (don't know if this is the same model of pitot mast
or not) which had this diagram
[image: image.png]
which shows two resistors in parallel, although only one circuit supplying
their current.
So, my deduction is I have two parallel resistors and two wires to feed
them - the wires in the wing are 18AWG.
My room-temperature resistance readings may not be accurate (not 4-wire) or
relevant (per Alec's comment about turn on at low temps) but doing a simple
calculation I would have 14/2.9 = 5A and 14/3.7 = 4A for a total of 9A
at
room temp.
I can see that designing for 20A 12AWG (for the wires I'll be adding inside
the fuselage) would give me a good margin. I wonder about the 18AWG wires
in the wing though.
Pat
On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:49 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:40 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
> Bob,
> If I measure the resistance of my pitot heater elements at room
> temperature and calculate the current thru each of these two resistances
in
> parallel when driven by a 14V supply, how far off am I for deducing peak
> inrush current in each circuit and thus wire size and breaker rating?=C3
=82
>
>
> Two resistances? Is this a 12/24v
> device? I've never seen one but that
> would kind of make sense.
>
> Yes, but they are LOW resistances.
> You need to do the 4-wire method
> to measure them accurately. I think
> you're fine with 20A/12AWG . . . plenty
> robust, not overkill.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
Pat, that is precisely the pitot mast that I have installed on my airplane
except mine does not have the duct tape upgrade.
Thank you for the shot of the service manual and thanks so much everybody
for all your help!
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 07:21 Pat Little wrote:
> The pitot head is from a Cherokee, looks like this
> [image: pitot mast DSCN0049.JPG]
> Here's a picture of the wiring inside the wing during construction
> [image: pitot heat DSCN0053.JPG]
> which looks possibly like two circuits in parallel.
> The wing is closed up now, so I can only investigate at the wing root
> where there are two wires for pitot heat, let's call them A and B. The
> resistances I measure (with a multimeter) are
> A to ground 2.9 Ohm
> B to ground 3.7 Ohm
> A to B (i.e., in series) 6.4 Ohm
> In trying to understand what is going on I dug into the internet and foun
d
> a PA-28 service manual (don't know if this is the same model of pitot mas
t
> or not) which had this diagram
> [image: image.png]
> which shows two resistors in parallel, although only one circuit supplyin
g
> their current.
>
> So, my deduction is I have two parallel resistors and two wires to feed
> them - the wires in the wing are 18AWG.
>
> My room-temperature resistance readings may not be accurate (not 4-wire)
> or relevant (per Alec's comment about turn on at low temps) but doing a
> simple calculation I would have 14/2.9 = 5A and 14/3.7 = 4A for a tot
al of
> 9A at room temp.
> I can see that designing for 20A 12AWG (for the wires I'll be adding
> inside the fuselage) would give me a good margin. I wonder about the 18AW
G
> wires in the wing though.
>
> Pat
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:49 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 11:40 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>> If I measure the resistance of my pitot heater elements at room
>> temperature and calculate the current thru each of these two resistances
in
>> parallel when driven by a 14V supply, how far off am I for deducing peak
>> inrush current in each circuit and thus wire size and breaker rating?=C3
=82
>>
>>
>> Two resistances? Is this a 12/24v
>> device? I've never seen one but that
>> would kind of make sense.
>>
>> Yes, but they are LOW resistances.
>> You need to do the 4-wire method
>> to measure them accurately. I think
>> you're fine with 20A/12AWG . . . plenty
>> robust, not overkill.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | R Adams <rnadms(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
Hey Pat
I used to fly one of these on a Seneca
Every time I got into ice it froze over and I lost the airspeed indicator
(which made it quite handy as an ice detector)
Was told it was a design flaw... it didn=99t have enough capacity to
heat the
mass of the probe sufficiently
All the best!
Ron
On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 10:21 AM Pat Little wrote:
> The pitot head is from a Cherokee, looks like this
> [image: pitot mast DSCN0049.JPG]
> Here's a picture of the wiring inside the wing during construction
> [image: pitot heat DSCN0053.JPG]
> which looks possibly like two circuits in parallel.
> The wing is closed up now, so I can only investigate at the wing root
> where there are two wires for pitot heat, let's call them A and B. The
> resistances I measure (with a multimeter) are
> A to ground 2.9 Ohm
> B to ground 3.7 Ohm
> A to B (i.e., in series) 6.4 Ohm
> In trying to understand what is going on I dug into the internet and foun
d
> a PA-28 service manual (don't know if this is the same model of pitot mas
t
> or not) which had this diagram
> [image: image.png]
> which shows two resistors in parallel, although only one circuit supplyin
g
> their current.
>
> So, my deduction is I have two parallel resistors and two wires to feed
> them - the wires in the wing are 18AWG.
>
> My room-temperature resistance readings may not be accurate (not 4-wire)
> or relevant (per Alec's comment about turn on at low temps) but doing a
> simple calculation I would have 14/2.9 = 5A and 14/3.7 = 4A for a tot
al of
> 9A at room temp.
> I can see that designing for 20A 12AWG (for the wires I'll be adding
> inside the fuselage) would give me a good margin. I wonder about the 18AW
G
> wires in the wing though.
>
> Pat
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:49 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 11:40 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>> If I measure the resistance of my pitot heater elements at room
>> temperature and calculate the current thru each of these two resistances
in
>> parallel when driven by a 14V supply, how far off am I for deducing peak
>> inrush current in each circuit and thus wire size and breaker rating?=C3
=82
>>
>>
>> Two resistances? Is this a 12/24v
>> device? I've never seen one but that
>> would kind of make sense.
>>
>> Yes, but they are LOW resistances.
>> You need to do the 4-wire method
>> to measure them accurately. I think
>> you're fine with 20A/12AWG . . . plenty
>> robust, not overkill.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 08:22 AM 4/2/2019, you wrote:
>
>I don=99t know!
>
>But I=99m keeping my ear open for an easy
>retro-fit (and easily approved) mitigation.
>Replacing the B-lead breaker with one that has
>built-in OV protection seemed an easy half-win.
You're not going to find a
light-footed breaker that will
fit into the same slot. There
are remote-trip breakers that
can be triggered by an external
ov sensor . . . but that's
not going to be any less
complicated than Z-14 (interim).
What kind of airplane are we
talking about? How tightly
is it bound to the TC/STC/
Field Approval processes?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
At 08:20 AM 4/2/2019, you wrote:
>
>Do you think the weather might make a difference?
>Inrush current when switched on at -20C might be higher than inrush
>current at room temperature.
Sure. The document I cited speaks to
the heater temperature coefficient of
resistance for an exemplar pitot tube.
Emacs!
In the instance illustrated, resistance
will vary over a 4:1 range between 0C and
the 270C operation during a max-ice
condition. You can check your heater on
the bench but do it will the tube
submerged in water to avoid still-air,
room-temperature overheat. Without
the heat rejecting qualities of ram-
air in near-icing conditions, the tube
will easily heat up to cherry red!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
A
>which shows two resistors in parallel, although only one circuit
>supplying their current.
>
>So, my deduction is I have two parallel resistors and two wires to
>feed them - the wires in the wing are 18AWG.
The wires will be fine . . . tie them together
at some convenient point you can reach, then
extend on to switch with the 12AWG wire.
The drawing shows 15A breaker which is also
fine.
>My room-temperature resistance readings may not be accurate (not
>4-wire) or relevant (per Alec's comment about turn on at low temps)
>but doing a simple calculation I would have 14/2.9 = 5A and 14/3.7 =
>4A for a total of 9A at room temp.
>I can see that designing for 20A 12AWG (for the wires I'll be adding
>inside the fuselage) would give me a good margin. I wonder about the
>18AWG wires in the wing though.
Yeah . . . 9A at room temp will
go lower at operating temperature
unless melting ice. Sounds like
not much of a heater . . . which
sorta agrees with other folks
experiences with poor performance.
Pitot heat really isn't much of
a hedge against a bad day in the
cockpit. If you're collecting
ice, airspeed is probably the least
of your worries. I could tell
you a tale or two about that.
Wire it up but don't let its
existence dissuade you from due
diligence with the weather-guys
while you're still on the ground.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk(at)comcast.net> |
This is a story you won't find anywhere else. While building a fast build kit I
had my galvanized rudder cables laying on a table. Someone ( not me ) moved them
onto a DC welding machine that was used several times in the next day or two.
I had mounted my magnetometer way back in the tail ( right between the rudder cables
) to get it away from all the electronics and antennas. When checking out
the remote compass outside without anything on I moved the rudder pedals and
got 200 to 300 degrees deflection. No amount of degausing would get a usable
compass. I moved it up and behind the baggage compartment and it became the most
accurate compass I have flown behind.
Another note FYI: A wet compass is influenced if it is too near a non electric
tachometer. Works fine with engine off but changes a few degrees with RPM when
the engine is running due to the magnetic clutch in the tach.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
Thanks, Ron. I like the idea of an ice detector!
On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 8:48 AM R Adams wrote:
> Hey Pat
>
> I used to fly one of these on a Seneca
>
> Every time I got into ice it froze over and I lost the airspeed indicator
> (which made it quite handy as an ice detector)
>
> Was told it was a design flaw... it didn=99t have enough capacity t
o heat
> the mass of the probe sufficiently
>
> All the best!
>
> Ron
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Super Battery-Tender followup |
The device I purchased a few weeks back
has been 'tending' a 7a.h. battery that
was degraded to about 9v open circuit
and zero capacity. After one week, the
battery's voltage has not climbed by
any significant amount nor has a load
test shown any improvement in energy
delivery. Further, the battery is
noticeably warmer than room temp.
I'm thinking that this product isn't
going to resurrect batteries from the dead.
I need a test subject that
was replaced due to depressed
capacity . . . say 60-80% of new. If
anyone has a possible candidate on
hand, I'd be pleased to have it for
continued experimentation. Would pay
shipping.
No other batteries I have on hand
present such an opportunity. I might
go dig around in the battery bone
yards of local shops.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-12 questions |
| From: | "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com> |
I'll echo Rick on that one... I'm also planning for a 4-cylinder dual ECU system
using SDS components. It would be great to get best thinking.
It's clear Bob wants to build us up to think about and know our aircraft, rather
than applying a cookbook approach. And I've got a fair amount of load analysis
to do before I start ordering parts and running wires. But I hope we see
an updated Z-12 before too much longer.
Also, I was at SnF yesterday and today. B&C has a great little booth, with a hard
copy catalog, components on the tables, and a smart person willing to talk
about problems and solutions.
My thanks to all for the comments posted above.
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488499#488499
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: re: Z-12 question |
At 10:55 AM 10/15/2018, you wrote:
>Electrical fire requiring the master switch be selected off?
>
>I also met a C182 that had apparently had a sudden and complete
>electrical failure at night but don't know the details. It's
>possible it was the typical "not noticing the alternator has failed
>until the battery is discharged" but I think all 182s have a warning
>light for this. Hard to miss at night and would not be sudden.
That's the problem with dark-n-stormy-night
stories. We almost NEVER get to interview
the pilot, the mechanic who serviced the
airplane later, or even the model year of
the airplane.
Until single engine Cessnas starting
getting B&C standby alternators and/or
glass cockpits, I don't think there was
any active notification of low bus voltage.
Just a battery ammeter.
Could be wrong, I've been disconnected
from details of those aircraft for about
40 years . . . BUT . . . I do have access
to a library of service data that would
tell us much about how the airplane
left the factory.
But based on history, I'll suggest that
one or more data points figured into
the story:
*The owner/pilot didn't have a clue
as to how long things were supposed
to run . . . battery only.
*The battery was not periodically
cap-checked to verify battery-only
endurance goals.
*the airplane had no active notification
of low voltage.
*the ship's most useful electro-whizzies
for alternator-out flight were not driven
from an source easily isolated from
devices of lesser importance.
*I'll bet the pilot didn't have hand-
held com/nav equipment in the flight bag.
Have you read a narrative of the pilot's
experience with this event?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: re: Z-12 question |
Older single engine Cessnas - 182s included - have an OV voltage trip warning light,
but it doesnt indicate an under-voltage. Its easy to miss, for instance,
a snapped alternator drive belt.
On Apr 3, 2019, at 9:48 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 10:55 AM 10/15/2018, you wrote:
> Electrical fire requiring the master switch be selected off?
>
> I also met a C182 that had apparently had a sudden and complete electrical failure
at night but don't know the details. It's possible it was the typical "not
noticing the alternator has failed until the battery is discharged" but I think
all 182s have a warning light for this. Hard to miss at night and would not
be sudden.
That's the problem with dark-n-stormy-night
stories. We almost NEVER get to interview
the pilot, the mechanic who serviced the
airplane later, or even the model year of
the airplane.
Until single engine Cessnas starting
getting B&C standby alternators and/or
glass cockpits, I don't think there was
any active notification of low bus voltage.
Just a battery ammeter.
Could be wrong, I've been disconnected
from details of those aircraft for about
40 years . . . BUT . . . I do have access
to a library of service data that would
tell us much about how the airplane
left the factory.
But based on history, I'll suggest that
one or more data points figured into
the story:
*The owner/pilot didn't have a clue
as to how long things were supposed
to run . . . battery only.
*The battery was not periodically
cap-checked to verify battery-only
endurance goals.
*the airplane had no active notification
of low voltage.
*the ship's most useful electro-whizzies
for alternator-out flight were not driven
from an source easily isolated from
devices of lesser importance.
*I'll bet the pilot didn't have hand-
held com/nav equipment in the flight bag.
Have you read a narrative of the pilot's
experience with this event?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | z-12 and low voltage warning |
>
> Hi Bob-
>
I do seem to recall some alternator equipped Cessnas with over voltage
warning lights, and I am currently acquainted with a generator equipped 182
that has a low voltage light.
Regardz-
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Most Electrical Failures are caused by poor workmanship |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Below is a quote from an experienced repairman. It seems that most electrical
failures are due to poor workmanship, not due to the chosen architecture or
hardware. Read the complete post here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=1336866&postcount=67
> With regards to electrically dependent aircraft, we've had 24 years
> supplying and supporting them and based on tech and feedback over that time,
> the #1 cause of no electrons flowing is poor wiring practices- ground and power
> connections/ bad crimps, #2 is routing near sharp and hot stuff with inadequate
> thermal and chafe protection, #3 poor strain relief and support. Switch gear
> stuff is well down the list in causing issues.
> Pick all the high dollar components you want but more important is how the
> electrical system is put together.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488515#488515
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Writing your thesis paper |
| From: | "amanda32" <elenasmith7900(at)gmail.com> |
Academic pro is all in one thesis and essay writing service which allows you submit
your online assignments and essays on time.Our online paper writer (https://academicwritingpro.com/)
will provide you with 100 percent copy free content.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488520#488520
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Super Battery-Tender followup |
Hi Bob,
If you are still looking, I'm pretty sure I can come up with a 17 amp-hr
AGM that is in the 60 - 80 percent capacity range (I pull them out of my
Longeze ~80% which equals 3 yrs service and rotate to my motorcycle (or
other usages if I don't get around to the motorcycle). I'll have to retest
the one in my bike now to see if it's the doggiest (it's the oldest) but
it's still likely at least 60%.
Let me know...
Steve Stearns
O235 Longeze ~1500 Hrs
Boulder/Longmont CO
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Most Electrical Failures are caused by poor workmanship |
At 09:43 AM 4/4/2019, you wrote:
>
>Below is a quote from an experienced repairman. It seems that most electrical
>failures are due to poor workmanship, not due to the chosen architecture or
>hardware. Read the complete post here:
>http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=1336866&postcount=67
Yup . . .been singing from that hymnal for
about 50 years. Craftsmanship figures in
a number of the accidents chronicled at
https://tinyurl.com/ky7szec
with preventative maintenance next
followed by poor architecture decisions.
Architecture speaks to failure
tolerance.
Craftsmanship speaks to robust
performance
Understanding speaks to confident
authorship of Plan-A and Plan-B
Quality of components speaks
only to service life and cost
of ownership.
Preventative maintenance speaks to
avoiding surprises at the failure
of a critical resource that has been
crying for help for some time.
Piloting skills speak to low-risk
travel from point A to point B . . .
and walking away from EVERY landing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Super Battery-Tender followup |
At 01:58 PM 4/4/2019, you wrote:
>Hi Bob,
>
>If you are still looking, I'm pretty sure I can
>come up with a 17 amp-hr AGM that is in the 60 -
>80 percent capacity range (I pull them out of my
>Longeze ~80% which equals 3 yrs service and
>rotate to my motorcycle (or other usages if I
>don't get around to the motorcycle).=C2 I'll have
>to retest the one in my bike now to see if it's
>the doggiest (it's the oldest) but it's still likely at least 60%.
Sounds like an ideal candidate.
I'd be pleased to put my hands
on it . . . who knows . . . maybe
the Battery Tender pixi dust
therapy will let me send it back
to you 'like new' . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Super Battery-Tender followup |
Bob said:
"Sounds like an ideal candidate.
I'd be pleased to put my hands
on it . . . who knows . . . maybe
the Battery Tender pixi dust
therapy will let me send it back
to you 'like new' . . ."
Ok, This will motivate me to pull the oldest of my collection off the
motorcycle and replace it with the one I pulled out of the Longeze in Jan.
I've got it on charge now. I'll cap test it and then recharge it before
sending. Might take a few days before it ships...
Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Super Battery-Tender followup |
At 06:43 PM 4/6/2019, you wrote:
>Bob said:
>"Sounds like an ideal candidate.
>=C2 =C2 I'd be pleased to put my hands
>=C2 =C2 on it . . . who knows . . . maybe
>=C2 =C2 the Battery Tender pixi dust
>=C2 =C2 therapy will let me send it back
>=C2 =C2 to you 'like new' . . ."
>
>Ok, This will motivate me to pull the oldest of
>my collection off the motorcycle and replace it
>with the one I pulled out of the Longeze in
>Jan.=C2 I've got it on charge now.=C2 I'll cap
>test it and then recharge it before
>sending.=C2 Might take a few days before it ships...
Thank you sir!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Just in case you accidentally let some out. I understand it's also
available for negative ground, too.
Rick Girard
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 4/7/2019 9:05 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Just in case you accidentally let some out. I understand it's also
> available for negative ground, too.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> --
>
>
> Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho
> Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>
>
And I always thought that Lucas was the only product line with an
infinite supply built in...
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
Can I get 12V, negative Earth version with imperial measurements? It needs
to be compatible with the smoke that I have already installed.
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
On Sun, Apr 7, 2019, 9:21 AM Richard Girard wrote:
> Just in case you accidentally let some out. I understand it's also
> available for negative ground, too.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> --
> =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.
=9D Groucho Marx
> <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Eckenroth <paul(at)eckenroth.com> |
| Subject: | Battery Contactor Voltage Drop |
What is the typical voltage drop across the poles of a healthy battery
contactor. Is there a failure or aging mode where the voltage drop
increases. How about typical voltage drop across the diode bridge
rectifier for the essential buss. After eleven trouble free years I need
to sort out some problems with my RV9A. Thanks for any information.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor Voltage Drop |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 4/7/2019 2:16 PM, Paul Eckenroth wrote:
> What is the typical voltage drop across the poles of a healthy battery
> contactor. Is there a failure or aging mode where the voltage drop
> increases. How about typical voltage drop across the diode bridge
> rectifier for the essential buss. After eleven trouble free years I
> need to sort out some problems with my RV9A. Thanks for any information.
>
> Paul
Drop across a good contactor should be hard to measure reliably with a
regular voltmeter.
Drop across a typical silicon diode will be zero with no load, but will
be around 0.7V at any significant load.
If you have a Schottky diode (not likely, but possible), it will be
around 0.5V or less under load.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor Voltage Drop |
Thanks for the information Charlie. The reason for the question is that I
have 1 EFIS each on the regular buss and the E buss which show .9V
difference. Does the diode degrade in a way that would increase voltage
drop.
Paul
On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 5:34 PM Charlie England wrote:
> ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
>
> On 4/7/2019 2:16 PM, Paul Eckenroth wrote:
> > What is the typical voltage drop across the poles of a healthy battery
> > contactor. Is there a failure or aging mode where the voltage drop
> > increases. How about typical voltage drop across the diode bridge
> > rectifier for the essential buss. After eleven trouble free years I
> > need to sort out some problems with my RV9A. Thanks for any information.
> >
> > Paul
> Drop across a good contactor should be hard to measure reliably with a
> regular voltmeter.
>
> Drop across a typical silicon diode will be zero with no load, but will
> be around 0.7V at any significant load.
> If you have a Schottky diode (not likely, but possible), it will be
> around 0.5V or less under load.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor Voltage Drop |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Paul,
The diode is fine. A voltage drop of 0.9 volts across a diode is normal. The
voltage drop depends
on the diode characteristics and the current. Some power diodes will drop 1.5
volts or more.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488620#488620
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor Voltage Drop |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
As long as the operating voltage with the alternator running is 'normal'
(around 14V), I wouldn't be concerned about a 0.9V drop from primary bus
across a standard diode block. If the diode is a typical 'full wave
rectifier' (square metal or plastic block with 4 leads), and the source
is feeding the '-' terminal and the load is on the '+' terminal, the
voltage drop will be higher since the path is actually through two
diodes in series. Not a big deal as long as you understand what's
happening. Only time it might matter is after alternator loss, at the
very end of battery life, *if* the E bus is still fed through the diode.
Charlie
On 4/8/2019 10:31 AM, Paul Eckenroth wrote:
> Thanks for the information Charlie. The reason for the question is
> that I have 1 EFIS each on the regular buss and the E buss which show
> .9V difference. Does the diode degrade in a way that would increase
> voltage drop.
>
> Paul
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 5:34 PM Charlie England > wrote:
>
> >
>
> On 4/7/2019 2:16 PM, Paul Eckenroth wrote:
> > What is the typical voltage drop across the poles of a healthy
> battery
> > contactor. Is there a failure or aging mode where the voltage drop
> > increases. How about typical voltage drop across the diode bridge
> > rectifier for the essential buss. After eleven trouble free
> years I
> > need to sort out some problems with my RV9A. Thanks for any
> information.
> >
> > Paul
> Drop across a good contactor should be hard to measure reliably
> with a
> regular voltmeter.
>
> Drop across a typical silicon diode will be zero with no load, but
> will
> be around 0.7V at any significant load.
> If you have a Schottky diode (not likely, but possible), it will be
> around 0.5V or less under load.
>
> ---
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> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor Voltage Drop |
>If the diode is a typical 'full wave rectifier' (square metal or
>plastic block with 4 leads), and the source is feeding the '-'
>terminal and the load is on the '+' terminal, the voltage drop will
>be higher since the path is actually through two diodes in series.
All of my drawings show power input
on an AC terminal (~) and output
on the (+). This uses only one of
the four diodes to minimize voltage
drop.
> Not a big deal as long as you understand what's happening. Only
> time it might matter is after alternator loss, at the very end of
> battery life, *if* the E bus is still fed through the diode.
Correct. Your radios are 'speced' to function
to 10V or less. By the time a battery gets
down to 10v (lead acid) or 11.2v (LiFePO4)
the battery is 'used up'. This is why the
e-bus alternate feed switch is closed any
time the alternator is off line . . . which
lets the electro-whizzies suck the battery
dry.
Any time the alternator is working, voltage
drop in the normal feed diode is insignificant.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor Voltage Drop |
I appreciate everyone's comments. I thought I had a problem which has now
evaporated.
Paul
On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 6:52 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> If the diode is a typical 'full wave rectifier' (square metal or plastic
> block with 4 leads), and the source is feeding the '-' terminal and the
> load is on the '+' terminal, the voltage drop will be higher since the path
> is actually through two diodes in series.
>
>
> All of my drawings show power input
> on an AC terminal (~) and output
> on the (+). This uses only one of
> the four diodes to minimize voltage
> drop.
>
> Not a big deal as long as you understand what's happening. Only time it
> might matter is after alternator loss, at the very end of battery life,
> *if* the E bus is still fed through the diode.
>
>
> Correct. Your radios are 'speced' to function
> to 10V or less. By the time a battery gets
> down to 10v (lead acid) or 11.2v (LiFePO4)
> the battery is 'used up'. This is why the
> e-bus alternate feed switch is closed any
> time the alternator is off line . . . which
> lets the electro-whizzies suck the battery
> dry.
>
> Any time the alternator is working, voltage
> drop in the normal feed diode is insignificant.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | S700-2-50 switch |
| From: | DANIEL PELLETIER <pelletie1959(at)me.com> |
Hi,
I perform the Z-16 diagram from Bob and I use the S700-2-50 switch suggest by Bob
to light the ignition and the starter contactor. I have some problems with
the wiring of that switch. Somebody have a wiring diagram for that switch. And
is it possible to get the same result with the S700-2-51 switch which have only
4 poles.
Daniel Pelletier
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: S700-2-50 switch |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Will this diagram help?
https://mid-8704.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2-50-Typical-use-PMAG-POWER-TEST-drawing.pdf
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488676#488676
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: S700-2-50 switch |
| From: | DANIEL PELLETIER <pelletie1959(at)me.com> |
Not really,
I've yet thi diagram. Maybe I don't understand this diagram. When I flip the switch
on the momentary, the starter contactor is on but the ignition is off. It
doesn't make sense.
Daniel Pelletier
Envoy de mon iPad
> Le 11 avr. 2019 20:26, user9253 a crit :
>
>
> Will this diagram help?
> https://mid-8704.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2-50-Typical-use-PMAG-POWER-TEST-drawing.pdf
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488676#488676
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: S700-2-50 switch |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
We need more information. Do you have a Rotax 912ULS engine?
If not, what engine?
Does it have magnetos?
Can you post a picture that shows how the wires are connected?
I would use 3 separate switches:
1 momentary switch for starting.
2 separate ignition switches.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488691#488691
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: S700-2-50 switch |
| From: | Bill Steer <steerr(at)bellsouth.net> |
That's what I did for the Hirth 3202 on my Excalibur. The two separate
ignition switches, and the pushbutton start switch, are wired so that
both ignition switches must be on for the start switch to work.
On 4/12/2019 2:57 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> We need more information. Do you have a Rotax 912ULS engine?
> If not, what engine?
> Does it have magnetos?
> Can you post a picture that shows how the wires are connected?
> I would use 3 separate switches:
> 1 momentary switch for starting.
> 2 separate ignition switches.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488691#488691
>
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Engine Compartment Connector Help PLEASE |
Greetings,
I am looking for an =9Cengine compartment proof=9D connector
for a 9 conductor ignition sensor cable so I thought I would ask the
pros at the Aeroelectric list for helpagain.
I have an engine that has dual Lightspeed Plasma III ignition systems
and I need to remove the engine to gain access to the accessory case.
The dilemma is that the two cables (containing 9 conductors each) that
run from the crank sensor at the nose of the engine to the ignition
modules mounted on the cold side of the firewall are too short to be
able to move the engine out far enough to gain access to the accessory
casethe crank sensor end of the cables are soldered to the
crank sensor PC board and the ignition module end is on the cold side of
the firewall and it has D-Sub connectors that are too large to pull out
through the firewall wire conduit (see picture of conduit before all of
the other wires were run through it.
So I am considering cutting the 9 conductor cables in half on the engine
side of the firewall and using some kind of VERY RELIABLE connector to
splice these VERY IMPORTANT cables.
Does anyone have any product recommendation? D-Sub (liquid proof male
and female hoods)??? Deutch connectors??? I would prefer a metal
connector body although I do not think it will really matter.
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Compartment Connector Help PLEASE |
I use a 25-pin Dsub with the female side mounted from the inside of the fi
rewall.=C2- It is a ceramic filled Dsub, so that in the case of a fire it
will be more resilient than the galvanized steel that Zenith specifies for
the firewall.=C2- All of the engine instruments, including the CHT and E
GT probes go through that Dsub.*=C2- It makes for a very clean installati
on.=C2- If you have the Dsub on one side already, consider just making th
at parallelegram hole, and being done with it.
*I just crimped a pin onto the end of the wires. If there is more than 1* o
f difference between the wires inside of that connector, I'll be a monkey's
uncle.=C2- Wait.=C2- Given my nephews, that may be the case already.
billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> wrote:
=C2-
Greetings,
=C2-
I am looking for an =9Cengine compartment proof=9D connector fo
r a 9 conductor ignition sensor cable so I thought I would ask the pros at
the Aeroelectric list for helpagain.
=C2-
I have an engine that has dual Lightspeed Plasma III ignition systems and I
need to remove the engine to gain access to the accessory case.=C2-
=C2-
The dilemma is that the two cables (containing 9 conductors each) that run
from the crank sensor at the nose of the engine to the ignition modules mou
nted on the cold side of the firewall are too short to be able to move the
engine out far enough to gain access to the accessory casethe cran
k sensor end of the cables are soldered to the crank sensor PC board and th
e ignition module end is on the cold side of the firewall and it has D-Sub
connectors that are too large to pull out through the firewall wire conduit
(see picture of conduit before all of the other wires were run through it.
=C2-
So I am considering cutting the 9 conductor cables in half on the engine si
de of the firewall and using some kind of VERY RELIABLE connector to splice
these VERY IMPORTANT cables.
=C2-
Does anyone have any product recommendation?=C2- D-Sub (liquid proof male
and female hoods)???=C2- Deutch connectors???=C2- I would prefer a met
al connector body although I do not think it will really matter.
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
=C2-
=C2-
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: S700-2-50 switch |
| From: | DANIEL PELLETIER <pelletie1959(at)me.com> |
I have a 912 uls. I use this setup of switch at the suggestion of Bob, see note
2 in the Z16 diagram. But there is no pattern for that type of switch in the
Z16 schema. If I can find the way to plug it, I will use a distinct start button
and two separate switch for ignition.
Daniel Pelletier
Envoy de mon iPad
> Le 12 avr. 2019 15:11, Bill Steer a crit :
>
>
> That's what I did for the Hirth 3202 on my Excalibur. The two separate ignition
switches, and the pushbutton start switch, are wired so that both ignition
switches must be on for the start switch to work.
>
>
>> On 4/12/2019 2:57 PM, user9253 wrote:
>>
>> We need more information. Do you have a Rotax 912ULS engine?
>> If not, what engine?
>> Does it have magnetos?
>> Can you post a picture that shows how the wires are connected?
>> I would use 3 separate switches:
>> 1 momentary switch for starting.
>> 2 separate ignition switches.
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488691#488691
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: S700-2-50 switch |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Below is a drawing showing how to connect ignition switches and start switch.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488706#488706
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ignition_and_start_129.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Voltage regulator location |
| From: | "rvtach" <rvtach(at)msn.com> |
I am close to finishing the firewall forward wiring of my RV-7A project and have
been able to find very little guidance on where to locate the external voltage
regulators. There will be two VRs- a VR-166 for the B & C 60 amp alternator
and the PMR1C for the SD-8. The only clear recommendation from B & C says the
PMR1C should be mounted on a metal surface for heat dissipation in an area with
good air circulation and that the case temperature should be kept below 175
degrees F.
So the choices are (1) Cabin side of the firewall where access is more difficult,
cooling airflow likely minimal but ambient temperature is low or (2) engine
side of the firewall where access is easier and likely lots of air swirling around
(unconfirmed) but ambient temp is probably hotter.
Where do people put these things?
--------
Jim McChesney
Tucson, AZ
RV-7A Finishing Kit
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488730#488730
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey C Warren <heffnhane(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage regulator location |
I mounted my two B&C regs in an RV14A onto the left side of the pilots position
about at my left thigh.
Made some mounting plates to attach to two fuselage longerons.
Area is dry and realitively easy to access and does not interfere with my legs.
On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:20 AM, rvtach wrote:
I am close to finishing the firewall forward wiring of my RV-7A project and have
been able to find very little guidance on where to locate the external voltage
regulators. There will be two VRs- a VR-166 for the B & C 60 amp alternator
and the PMR1C for the SD-8. The only clear recommendation from B & C says the
PMR1C should be mounted on a metal surface for heat dissipation in an area with
good air circulation and that the case temperature should be kept below 175
degrees F.
So the choices are (1) Cabin side of the firewall where access is more difficult,
cooling airflow likely minimal but ambient temperature is low or (2) engine
side of the firewall where access is easier and likely lots of air swirling around
(unconfirmed) but ambient temp is probably hotter.
Where do people put these things?
--------
Jim McChesney
Tucson, AZ
RV-7A Finishing Kit
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488730#488730
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Voltage regulator location |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Be sure to use heat conductive paste between the regulator and mounting surface.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488733#488733
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey C Warren <heffnhane(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage regulator location |
Or, relieve the back-side of the mounting plate with a nice big hole for air circulation
- there is more than a half inch clear space behind it to the external
fuselage skin.
On Apr 14, 2019, at 11:20 AM, user9253 wrote:
Be sure to use heat conductive paste between the regulator and mounting surface.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488733#488733
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage regulator location |
I remember Bob saying that things arent especially hot forward of the forewall
due to the cooling flow of air. Except sometimes immediately after landing.
> On Apr 14, 2019, at 11:31, Jeffrey C Warren wrote:
>
>
> Or, relieve the back-side of the mounting plate with a nice big hole for air
circulation - there is more than a half inch clear space behind it to the external
fuselage skin.
>
> On Apr 14, 2019, at 11:20 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
>
> Be sure to use heat conductive paste between the regulator and mounting surface.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488733#488733
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DANIEL PELLETIER <pelletie1959(at)me.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage regulator location |
Personnaly I put it que on the top of firewall and pour use a 12 bolts small compter
fan. Works great. Ican send you picture uf you want.
Daniel Pelletier
> Le 14 avr. 2019 10:20, rvtach a crit :
>
>
> I am close to finishing the firewall forward wiring of my RV-7A project and have
been able to find very little guidance on where to locate the external voltage
regulators. There will be two VRs- a VR-166 for the B & C 60 amp alternator
and the PMR1C for the SD-8. The only clear recommendation from B & C says the
PMR1C should be mounted on a metal surface for heat dissipation in an area
with good air circulation and that the case temperature should be kept below 175
degrees F.
>
> So the choices are (1) Cabin side of the firewall where access is more difficult,
cooling airflow likely minimal but ambient temperature is low or (2) engine
side of the firewall where access is easier and likely lots of air swirling
around (unconfirmed) but ambient temp is probably hotter.
>
> Where do people put these things?
>
> --------
> Jim McChesney
> Tucson, AZ
> RV-7A Finishing Kit
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488730#488730
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Compartment Connector Help PLEASE |
>
>
>The dilemma is that the two cables (containing 9
>conductors each) that run from the crank sensor
>at the nose of the engine to the ignition
>modules mounted on the cold side of the firewall
>are too short to be able to move the engine out
>far enough to gain access to the accessory
>case=85the crank sensor end of the cables are
>soldered to the crank sensor PC board and the
>ignition module end is on the cold side of the
>firewall and it has D-Sub connectors that are
>too large to pull out through the firewall wire
>conduit (see picture of conduit before all of
>the other wires were run through it.
The most robust/reliable is to simply extend the harnesses
with additional wire SPLICED onto the original harness
such that excess wire forms a service-loop that is
coiled and tied off for normal operations.
>
>So I am considering cutting the 9 conductor
>cables in half on the engine side of the
>firewall and using some kind of VERY RELIABLE
>connector to splice these VERY IMPORTANT cables.
Close cousins to these connectors are found under the
hood of bizillions of vehicles. They are dust/water
tight.
https://tinyurl.com/y3yl5ls2
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | The joys of a Z-14 during an charging system failure |
Having just passed 1100 hours on my RV-10, I experienced my 2nd LR3C
voltage regulator failure. Like the first, this turned out to be a
non-event despite some difficulty in problem determination.
I installed a Z-14 dual bus, dual alternator, dual battery electrical
system. Specifically a B&C L-40, a B&C SD-20, (2) Odyssey PC680s, and
(2) LR3c B&C regulators. Dual mags but an electrically hungry panel
with (3) GRT EFISs and the rest of the usual kitchen sink.
The charging system failure occurred during cruise in the normal
configuration; i.e. with both buses running independently and not
linked. I first noticed the voltage slowly drop on bus1. I switched
the cross-link on and off a few times and observed the voltage climb
each time suggesting something on bus1 had failed but bus2 was running fine.
Soon the low voltage light lit so I simply switched the cross link on
and completed the 2 hour leg.
Upon landing and suspecting an LR3c failure, I ran through the problem
determination procedure per B&C. Problem was it all checked out so I
call them and they said it was probably a failed alternator. I sent it
in, they checked it out, the 1100 hour L-40 was just fine so they sent
it back for the cost of postage. I reinstalled it, reset the belt
tension and took a test flight.
All was well on the test flight so a week later I went on a 3 leg
journey to DC, Pgh and return. No problems on the first 2 legs but on
the third leg, bus 1 was out again. It was a non-event relative to
finishing the 1.5 hour leg.
I re-ran the regulator's PD procedure and step 4 failed (no voltage
drop for those following along). Since I had a previously repaired one
on the shelf, I simply swapped it out and was off and flying again.
Findings:
- The LR3c can 'soft-fail' and can be suspect even if PD checks out.
- The 20amp backup alternator is capable of running my full daytime
cruising load including battery charging. It only comes up short at low
RPMs during ground ops.
- The 40amp main alternator is enough for my fully loaded RV10 and will
keep things running and charging even during low RPM ground ops (I
already knew this).
- The Z-14 provides a great deal of 'dispatch reliability'. I can
finish out a trip and get home safely in most instances even with a
failed regulator or alternator. I feel confident enough to take off
with one side failed if need be, an example being on trips to the
Bahamas as long as battery life will carry me to an airport even with a
2nd charging system failure.
- Don't mount the LR3c on the back of the firewall up under the RV10
panel where it is so *^*&^I%%$$#GD hard to get at for adjustment or
replacement.
Bill "experiencing the joys of ongoing OBAM aircraft maintenance" Watson
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Grounding to tube frame structures |
| From: | "jrevens" <jrevens(at)comcast.net> |
This is not exactly on topic, but I would like to get Bob's take on it. In a recent
online forum, the writer posted the following in regards to the "forest
of tabs" grounding structure -
> Avionics Ground BusAll other aircraft systems should be grounded through the
avionics ground bus. This can be a "field of tabs" bus or simply a copper strip
to accept ground wires from each of the systems. The avionics ground bus should
not be grounded directly to the airframe. It should be locally isolated from
the airframe with appropriate mounting. An 8 ga. wire should connect the avionics
bus to the firewall pass-through bolt to complete the ground path.
It seems a little silly to insulate the forest of tabs from the airframe and then
connect it to the airframe with a wire to the pass through bolt. I'm also
wondering about bringing all other aircraft system grounds to the "Avionics" buss.
This was supposedly from an article in Kitplanes magazine.
--------
John Evens
Thorp T-18 N71JE (sold)
Kitfox SS7 N27JE (built & flying)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488746#488746
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/final_ground_system_113.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding to tube frame structures |
I have two forests of tabs, one on each side of the firewall. There is a
hefty bolt, 5/16 if I remember correctly but maybe 1/4, that physically
supports the two electrically connects them to the firewall. It's a metal
airplane.
One additional note: I had enough tabs in the forest inside the cabin that
I did not bother with a seperate avionics ground bus. If I run out of tabs,
I will add an avionics ground bus connected to one of the tabs.
-- Art Z.
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 12:24 PM jrevens wrote:
>
> This is not exactly on topic, but I would like to get Bob's take on it.
> In a recent online forum, the writer posted the following in regards to t
he
> "forest of tabs" grounding structure -
>
>
> > Avionics Ground Bus=94All other aircraft systems should be ground
ed
> through the avionics ground bus. This can be a "field of tabs" bus or
> simply a copper strip to accept ground wires from each of the systems. Th
e
> avionics ground bus should not be grounded directly to the airframe. It
> should be locally isolated from the airframe with appropriate mounting. A
n
> 8 ga. wire should connect the avionics bus to the firewall pass-through
> bolt to complete the ground path.
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz*
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Grounding to tube frame structures |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 4/15/2019 12:09 PM, jrevens wrote:
>
> This is not exactly on topic, but I would like to get Bob's take on it. In a
recent online forum, the writer posted the following in regards to the "forest
of tabs" grounding structure -
>
>
>> Avionics Ground BusAll other aircraft systems should be grounded through the
avionics ground bus. This can be a "field of tabs" bus or simply a copper strip
to accept ground wires from each of the systems. The avionics ground bus should
not be grounded directly to the airframe. It should be locally isolated from
the airframe with appropriate mounting. An 8 ga. wire should connect the avionics
bus to the firewall pass-through bolt to complete the ground path.
>
> It seems a little silly to insulate the forest of tabs from the airframe and
then connect it to the airframe with a wire to the pass through bolt. I'm also
wondering about bringing all other aircraft system grounds to the "Avionics"
buss. This was supposedly from an article in Kitplanes magazine.
>
> --------
> John Evens
> Thorp T-18 N71JE (sold)
> Kitfox SS7 N27JE (built & flying)
>
>
I think the logic is that if the avionics ground bus is remote from the
main ground bus at the firewall, keeping it isolated and running its own
ground wire to the firewall serves the same purpose as the firewall
mounted bus: to prevent ground 'loops' (noise in the ground path showing
up in undesired locations).
Charlie
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Grounding to tube frame structures |
| From: | "jrevens" <jrevens(at)comcast.net> |
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> On 4/15/2019 12:09 PM, jrevens wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > This is not exactly on topic, but I would like to get Bob's take on it. In
a recent online forum, the writer posted the following in regards to the "forest
of tabs" grounding structure -
> >
> >
> > > Avionics Ground BusAll other aircraft systems should be grounded through
the avionics ground bus. This can be a "field of tabs" bus or simply a copper
strip to accept ground wires from each of the systems. The avionics ground bus
should not be grounded directly to the airframe. It should be locally isolated
from the airframe with appropriate mounting. An 8 ga. wire should connect the
avionics bus to the firewall pass-through bolt to complete the ground path.
> >
> > It seems a little silly to insulate the forest of tabs from the airframe and
then connect it to the airframe with a wire to the pass through bolt. I'm
also wondering about bringing all other aircraft system grounds to the "Avionics"
buss. This was supposedly from an article in Kitplanes magazine.
> >
> > --------
> > John Evens
> > Thorp T-18 N71JE (sold)
> > Kitfox SS7 N27JE (built & flying)
> >
> >
> > I think the logic is that if the avionics ground bus is remote from the
> >
>
> main ground bus at the firewall, keeping it isolated and running its own
> ground wire to the firewall serves the same purpose as the firewall
> mounted bus: to prevent ground 'loops' (noise in the ground path showing
> up in undesired locations).
>
> Charlie
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Agreed, Charlie. I just couldn't see why you would want to insulate the forest
of tabs from the firewall, as shown in the drawing. The direct connection to
the carry through bolt and the firewall seems simpler and smarter. The author
seems to imply that the forest of tabs must be insulated from the airframe,
when the wire connecting it to the bolt connects it to the airframe anyway. I
guess I just don't see the reasoning for "isolating" the bus when it is also connected
with a conductor to the airframe.
--------
John Evens
Thorp T-18 N71JE (sold)
Kitfox SS7 N27JE (built & flying)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488751#488751
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding to tube frame structures |
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 1:55 PM jrevens wrote:
>
>
> ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> > On 4/15/2019 12:09 PM, jrevens wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is not exactly on topic, but I would like to get Bob's take on
> it. In a recent online forum, the writer posted the following in regards
> to the "forest of tabs" grounding structure -
> > >
> > >
> > > > Avionics Ground Bus=94All other aircraft systems should be gr
ounded
> through the avionics ground bus. This can be a "field of tabs" bus or
> simply a copper strip to accept ground wires from each of the systems. Th
e
> avionics ground bus should not be grounded directly to the airframe. It
> should be locally isolated from the airframe with appropriate mounting. A
n
> 8 ga. wire should connect the avionics bus to the firewall pass-through
> bolt to complete the ground path.
> > >
> > > It seems a little silly to insulate the forest of tabs from the
> airframe and then connect it to the airframe with a wire to the pass
> through bolt. I'm also wondering about bringing all other aircraft syste
m
> grounds to the "Avionics" buss. This was supposedly from an article in
> Kitplanes magazine.
> > >
> > > --------
> > > John Evens
> > > Thorp T-18 N71JE (sold)
> > > Kitfox SS7 N27JE (built & flying)
> > >
> > >
> > > I think the logic is that if the avionics ground bus is remote from
> the
> > >
> >
> > main ground bus at the firewall, keeping it isolated and running its ow
n
> > ground wire to the firewall serves the same purpose as the firewall
> > mounted bus: to prevent ground 'loops' (noise in the ground path showin
g
> > up in undesired locations).
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
> Agreed, Charlie. I just couldn't see why you would want to insulate the
> forest of tabs from the firewall, as shown in the drawing. The direct
> connection to the carry through bolt and the firewall seems simpler and
> smarter. The author seems to imply that the forest of tabs must be
> insulated from the airframe, when the wire connecting it to the bolt
> connects it to the airframe anyway. I guess I just don't see the reasonin
g
> for "isolating" the bus when it is also connected with a conductor to the
> airframe.
>
> --------
> John Evens
> Thorp T-18 N71JE (sold)
> Kitfox SS7 N27JE (built & flying)
>
>
Ah; didn't even see his pic when I posted. You're right; absolutely no
reason to isolate the firewall mounted FOT.
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding to tube frame structures |
>
> > > > Avionics Ground Bus=94All other aircraft
> systems should be grounded through the avionics
> ground bus. This can be a "field of tabs" bus
> or simply a copper strip to accept ground wires
> from each of the systems. The avionics ground
> bus should not be grounded directly to the
> airframe. It should be locally isolated from
> the airframe with appropriate mounting. An 8
> ga. wire should connect the avionics bus to the
> firewall pass-through bolt to complete the ground path.
> I think the logic is that if the avionics ground bus is remote from the
> > main ground bus at the firewall, keeping it isolated and running its own
> > ground wire to the firewall serves the same purpose as the firewall
> > mounted bus: to prevent ground 'loops' (noise in the ground path showing
> > up in undesired locations).
Correct. See various examples in
Figure Z-15 https://tinyurl.com/5wxzn7
The 'avionics bus' is a CENTRAL grounding
point located in closest practical proximity
to potential noise VICTIMS(generally all
panel mounted). This ground point may well
be electrically common to the airframe . . .
this would be true if your airplane is all
metal and the panel structure gets 'hooked
up electrically' to the rest of the airplane.
The magic things about an avionics bus:
(1) central location to potential VICTIMS
(2) single point for grounding all components
in constellation of potential VICTIMS.
(3) this ground is NOT SHARED with any potential
ANTAGONIST (all those other things scattered
around the airplane).
If the airplane is composite, then you'll need
to extend the avionics ground down to the firewall
ground point with either a relatively robust
bond wire (8awg is a bit overkill 12AWG is
probably fine for modern suite of solid-state
avionics).
The avionics ground bus generally has lots
of small wires none of which carries big
currents. A product like this
https://tinyurl.com/y44yngbm
is much easier to mount in close proximity
to the panel mounted electro-whizzies.
For potential antagonists, grounding
to the AIRFRAME can be managed with
a product like this:
https://tinyurl.com/y4gvepup
But there's nothing magic about
bringing all your airframe grounds
to a single point. If you have an
all-metal airplane, remote grounding
of things like landing lights, strobe
supplies, landing gear motors, batteries
etc is quite practical.
Insulating your ground system from the
airframe is not recommended and has
no demonstrable value. However, running
all airframe grounds to the firewall thru-
stud bus is not a 'bad' thing to do either.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Gurley" <rngurley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Water resistant D-Sub |
Does anyone have a suggestion for a water resistant or waterproof D-Sub
connector where the pins are crimped? I am looking for 5 - 9 pins.
Thank you for your assistance
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Water resistant D-Sub |
> Does anyone have a suggestion for a water resistant or waterproof D-Sub
connector where the pins are crimped? I am looking for 5 - 9 pins.
So am I. Can someone PLEASE suggest a product?
.
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Richard Gurley
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 10:01 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Water resistant D-Sub
Does anyone have a suggestion for a water resistant or waterproof D-Sub
connector where the pins are crimped? I am looking for 5 - 9 pins.
Thank you for your assistance
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Water resistant D-Sub |
At 01:57 PM 4/16/2019, you wrote:
> > Does anyone have a suggestion for a water
> resistant or waterproof D-Sub connector where
> the pins are crimped? I am looking for 5 ' 9 pins.
>
>So am I. Can someone PLEASE suggest a product?
There is a mil-qualified 'environmental'
series of d-subs. See page 364 of this
catalog
http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/ITT_Cannon/Military_Aerospace.p
df
What's the application here? Why 'water
proof' in a d-sub?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding to tube frame structures |
>
> Insulating your ground system from the
> airframe is not recommended and has
> no demonstrable value. However, running
> all airframe grounds to the firewall thru-
> stud bus is not a 'bad' thing to do either.
I've had a couple private emails on this
topic seeking amplification. If anyone
needs more info or explanations in
different words, don't hesitate to
post here on the List.
There's a lot of mis-understanding/
mis-information about grounds
circulating in the OBAM aviation
world . . . and if different
explanations are needed, I
really need to know about it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding to tube frame structures |
Bob,
I'll admit to being confused by this advice. And since I'm building a
metal-winged, steel-tube fuselage airplane, I'd really like to
understand this better than I do now...
I would appreciate a more thorough explanation, starting from the
assumption that I am NOT an electrical engineer, and my knowledge of
aircraft wiring is almost exclusively learned through this forum and
your book.
Jim Parker
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Grounding to tube frame structures
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Tue, April 16, 2019 2:54 pm
Insulating your ground system from the
airframe is not recommended and has
no demonstrable value. However, running
all airframe grounds to the firewall thru-
stud bus is not a 'bad' thing to do either.
I've had a couple private emails on this
topic seeking amplification. If anyone
needs more info or explanations in
different words, don't hesitate to
post here on the List.
There's a lot of mis-understanding/
mis-information about grounds
circulating in the OBAM aviation
world . . . and if different
explanations are needed, I
really need to know about it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Water resistant D-Sub |
Try this link for NorComp Seal-D D-sub connectors that meet IP66 or IP67.
=C2- You always have to specify a standard, because otherwise you don't k
now what you'll get.
Newark, Mouser, Digi-Key and other distributors carry them.
Waterproof D-Sub | IP67/IP68 Rated | NorComp
|
|
| |
Waterproof D-Sub | IP67/IP68 Rated | NorComp
Search a full range of waterproof d-sub connectors used in a variety of har
sh environments & demanding end-use a...
|
|
|
Henador Titzoff
t.net> wrote:
Does anyone have a suggestion for a water resistant or waterproof D-Sub con
nector where the pins are crimped?=C2- I am looking for 5 =93 9 pin
s.
=C2-
Thank you for=C2- your assistance
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Water resistant D-Sub |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzc4mtFmmHo
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 12:56 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 01:57 PM 4/16/2019, you wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have a suggestion for a water resistant or waterproof D-Sub
> connector where the pins are crimped? I am looking for 5 =93 9 pin
s.
>
> So am I. Can someone PLEASE suggest a product?
>
>
> There is a mil-qualified 'environmental'
> series of d-subs. See page 364 of this
> catalog
>
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/ITT_Cannon/Military_Aerospac
e.pdf
>
> What's the application here? Why 'water
> proof' in a d-sub?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Water resistant D-Sub |
At 06:03 PM 4/16/2019, you wrote:
>Try this link for NorComp Seal-D D-sub connectors that meet IP66 or
>IP67. You always have to specify a standard, because otherwise you
>don't know what you'll get.
>
>Newark, Mouser, Digi-Key and other distributors carry them.
>
>Waterproof
>D-Sub | IP67/IP68 Rated | NorComp
>
>
>
>Waterproof D-Sub | IP67/IP68 Rated | NorComp
>
>
>
>Search a full range of waterproof d-sub connectors used in a variety
>of harsh environments & demanding end-use a...
>
>
>Henador Titzoff
Cool find! Thank you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Water resistant D-Sub |
THANKS Bob!!!
I bought these DB15 type connectors and I understand the concept of
installing the back shell with the male thumbscrews to connect to an
accessory such as my Lightspeed III ignition module.
What I am not clear on is how to connect the male D-Sub to a female D-Sub
inline with each having a back shell and one with a male thumb screw and the
second with a female threaded nut.
Example: I have a Dynon GPS antenna mounted to a removeable hatch and I
want to be able to unbolt the hatch and then disconnect the two D-Sub
connectors that connect the ships wiring to the antenna and then remove the
hatch.
Right now I the two connectors do not have a back shell and when I mate the
two connectors I secure them togher with a tie wrap on each side through the
holes that the thumbscrew should go through.simple, lightweight, low tech,
and secure however not very professional.
.
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Water resistant D-Sub
At 06:03 PM 4/16/2019, you wrote:
Try this link for NorComp Seal-D D-sub connectors that meet IP66 or IP67.
You always have to specify a standard, because otherwise you don't know what
you'll get.
Newark, Mouser, Digi-Key and other distributors carry them.
Waterproof D-Sub | IP67/IP68 Rated | NorComp
Waterproof D-Sub | IP67/IP68 Rated | NorComp
Search a full range of waterproof d-sub connectors used in a variety of
harsh environments & demanding end-use a...
Henador Titzoff
Cool find! Thank you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | argoldman(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Water resistant D-Sub |
Bill, there are little female connectors (basically nuts) that you can scre
w both the affixing screws into joining the two shells together. Suggested
to use thread locker with these. I think B&C carries them.
S8013-hex
Rich
In a message dated 4/17/2019 2:59:22 PM Central Standard Time, billhunterse
mail(at)gmail.com writes:
THANKS Bob!!!
=C2-
I bought these DB15 type connectors and I understand the concept of install
ing the back shell with the male thumbscrews to connect to an accessory suc
h as my Lightspeed III ignition module.=C2-
=C2-
What I am not clear on is how to connect the male D-Sub to a female D-Sub i
nline with each having a back shell and one with a male thumb screw and the
second with a female threaded nut.=C2-
=C2-
Example:=C2- I have a Dynon GPS antenna mounted to a removeable hatch and
I want to be able to unbolt the hatch and then disconnect the two D-Sub co
nnectors that connect the ships wiring to the antenna and then remove the h
atch.=C2-
=C2-
Right now I the two connectors do not have a back shell and when I mate the
two connectors I secure them togher with a tie wrap on each side through t
he holes that the thumbscrew should go throughsimple, lightweight,
low tech, and secure however not very professional
=C2-
=C2-
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
=C2-
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list
-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Water resistant D-Sub
=C2-
At 06:03 PM 4/16/2019, you wrote:
Try this link for NorComp Seal-D D-sub connectors that meet IP66 or IP67.
=C2- You always have to specify a standard, because otherwise you don't k
now what you'll get.
Newark, Mouser, Digi-Key and other distributors carry them.
Waterproof D-Sub | IP67/IP68 Rated | NorComp
Waterproof D-Sub | IP67/IP68 Rated | NorComp
Search a full range of waterproof d-sub connectors used in a variety of har
sh environments & demanding end-use a...
Henador Titzoff
=C2- Cool=C2- find! Thank you.
=C2- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Water resistant D-Sub |
At 05:29 PM 4/17/2019, you wrote:
>Bill, there are little female connectors (basically nuts) that you
>can screw both the affixing screws into joining the two shells
>together. Suggested to use thread locker with these. I think B&C carries them.
>
>S8013-hex
Yeah. Looks like these
Emacs!
Got a boat load. Send me an address and
quantity needed. I'll drop them in the mail.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Water resistant D-Sub |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 4/17/2019 6:24 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 05:29 PM 4/17/2019, you wrote:
>> Bill, there are little female connectors (basically nuts) that you
>> can screw both the affixing screws into joining the two shells
>> together. Suggested to use thread locker with these. I think B&C
>> carries them.
>>
>> S8013-hex
>
> Yeah. Looks like these
>
>
> Got a boat load. Send me an address and
> quantity needed. I'll drop them in the mail.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
I really like Dsubs, but I really hate the standard attachment method
(tiny, sloppily slotted screws). For some chassis mounts, and most
in-line pairs, I really like 'bale' style latches. Here's one source:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjYlKi7xNjhAhXLTN8KHfiPCrsQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newark.com%2Fcooper-interconnect%2F17-529%2Fd-sub-spring-latch%2Fdp%2F39F1390&psig=AOvVaw064bp5kfjSPGEFC3WoLuOE&ust=1555638852183307
May require modifying the backshell slightly.
Charlie
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Water resistant D-Sub |
Beg to differ, Bob.
The devices to which I referred were totally of the female gender persuasion
. The ones that you showed are male on one side and female on the other.
Not so my suggestion. Both sides are female with opposite threads and are si
zed to hold two sub ds together. See b& c catalog with the stock number tha
t I indicated (unless I was dyslexic when I copied the number. )
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 17, 2019, at 6:24 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroele
ctric.com> wrote:
>
> At 05:29 PM 4/17/2019, you wrote:
>> Bill, there are little female connectors (basically nuts) that you can sc
rew both the affixing screws into joining the two shells together. Suggested
to use thread locker with these. I think B&C carries them.
>>
>> S8013-hex
>
> Yeah. Looks like these
>
> <15f5306.jpg>
>
> Got a boat load. Send me an address and
> quantity needed. I'll drop them in the mail.
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Water resistant D-Sub |
That's what I'm using on my firewall to engine sensor bundle connector.=C2
- Keep in mind that these won't fit on all shells.=C2- I actually have
a bag full of shells now.=C2- :-)
d7(at)gmail.com> wrote:
On 4/17/2019 6:24 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
At 05:29 PM 4/17/2019, you wrote:
Bill, there are little female connectors (basically nuts) that you can scre
w both the affixing screws into joining the two shells together. Suggested
to use thread locker with these. I think B&C carries them.
S8013-hex
=C2- Yeah. Looks like these
=C2-
=C2-Got a boat load. Send me an address and
=C2-quantity needed. I'll drop them in the mail.
=C2- Bob . . .
I really like Dsubs, but I really hate the standard attachment method (tin
y, sloppily slotted screws). For some chassis mounts, and most in-line pair
s, I really like 'bale' style latches. Here's one source:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&
ved=2ahUKEwjYlKi7xNjhAhXLTN8KHfiPCrsQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
newark.com%2Fcooper-interconnect%2F17-529%2Fd-sub-spring-latch%2Fdp%2F39F13
90&psig=AOvVaw064bp5kfjSPGEFC3WoLuOE&ust=1555638852183307
May require modifying the backshell slightly.
Charlie
| | Virus-free. www.avast.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Water resistant D-Sub |
Thanks Bob for your kind offer! I already ordered some from Amazon Aircraft
Supply but I greatly appreciate the offer and all of the advice
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 19:18 Charlie England wrote:
> On 4/17/2019 6:24 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> At 05:29 PM 4/17/2019, you wrote:
>
> Bill, there are little female connectors (basically nuts) that you can
> screw both the affixing screws into joining the two shells together.
> Suggested to use thread locker with these. I think B&C carries them.
>
> S8013-hex
>
>
> Yeah. Looks like these
>
>
> Got a boat load. Send me an address and
> quantity needed. I'll drop them in the mail.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> I really like Dsubs, but I really hate the standard attachment method
> (tiny, sloppily slotted screws). For some chassis mounts, and most in-lin
e
> pairs, I really like 'bale' style latches. Here's one source:
>
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=
8&ved=2ahUKEwjYlKi7xNjhAhXLTN8KHfiPCrsQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
w.newark.com%2Fcooper-interconnect%2F17-529%2Fd-sub-spring-latch%2Fdp%2F39F
1390&psig=AOvVaw064bp5kfjSPGEFC3WoLuOE&ust=1555638852183307
>
> May require modifying the backshell slightly.
>
> Charlie
>
>
> Virus-free
.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_-1142043692092316945_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Choosing a solenoid |
I replace an Aerovee carb with an Ellison TBI.=C2- The engine runs much s
moother, and fired up with even EGTs once I got it primed.=C2- I didn't h
ave a prime on the Aerovee, since the thing starts pouring fuel as soon as
you open the shutoff valve, so priming was just a matter of waiting a coupl
e seconds before cranking.=C2- Instead, I got her running by pouring the
fuel from my sump drainer into the intake air box.=C2- Not the safest thi
ng in the world to be doing, indicating a need for a real primer circuit.
=C2- I have an electric primer pump on hand, and I could just run a small
tube into the airbox to dump fuel right in front of the carbs intake.=C2
- This will require a momentary switch and a wire run, as well as a bunch
of fuel plumbing.=C2-
However, Rotec built a different type of primer into their version of the E
llison.=C2- It is a bulb that inflates a diaphragm, opening the fuel valv
e.=C2- For those not familiar with the Ellison, the diaphragm is inflated
by incoming air pressure while the engine is running, and serves as a shut
off after engine shutdown.=C2- I was thinking of modifying my Ellison to
play along the same line as Rotec.
The problem I have with airplane primers is that we dump some fuel in the i
ntake.=C2- How much to dump is an obfuscated educated guess.=C2- We pus
h a button or pump a handle a certain amount based on experience of how tha
t amount of pushing or pumping has worked in the past, without really knowi
ng how much is added.=C2- The downside of this approach is documented by
POHs having a section dedicated to what to do when the over priming catches
fire.=C2- Rotec's strategy has the same issue as all other primers.
So, if instead of a bulb, I mounted a plunger type servo on the diaphragm c
over plate and tie that servo to the starter circuit.=C2- When I pushed t
he starter switch, the plunger would extend to push the diaphragm.=C2- Th
e fuel valve would then only open when the starter was engaged.=C2- Fuel
would never be dumped in the intake unless air was being moved through the
engine.=C2- This seems to remove most of the chance of a fire caused by o
ver priming.
I'm thinking a solenoid like this one would work.=C2- Small Push-Pull So
lenoid - 12VDC=C2- but would like to see if there are any other suggestio
ns.=C2-
|
|
|
| $14.87 | |
|
|
|
| |
Small Push-Pull Solenoid - 12VDC
Solenoids are basically electromagnets: they are made of a big coil of copp
er wire with an armature (a slug of m...
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a solenoid |
That's brilliant. I assume you will run the power to this plunger through a
switch so you can decide whether or not it actuates on any given start?
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 13:03 Ernest Christley wrote:
> I replace an Aerovee carb with an Ellison TBI. The engine runs much
> smoother, and fired up with even EGTs once I got it primed. I didn't hav
e
> a prime on the Aerovee, since the thing starts pouring fuel as soon as yo
u
> open the shutoff valve, so priming was just a matter of waiting a couple
> seconds before cranking. Instead, I got her running by pouring the fuel
> from my sump drainer into the intake air box. Not the safest thing in th
e
> world to be doing, indicating a need for a real primer circuit. I have a
n
> electric primer pump on hand, and I could just run a small tube into the
> airbox to dump fuel right in front of the carbs intake. This will requir
e
> a momentary switch and a wire run, as well as a bunch of fuel plumbing.
>
> However, Rotec built a different type of primer into their version of the
> Ellison. It is a bulb that inflates a diaphragm, opening the fuel valve.
> For those not familiar with the Ellison, the diaphragm is inflated by
> incoming air pressure while the engine is running, and serves as a shutof
f
> after engine shutdown. I was thinking of modifying my Ellison to play
> along the same line as Rotec.
>
> The problem I have with airplane primers is that we dump some fuel in the
> intake. How much to dump is an obfuscated educated guess. We push a
> button or pump a handle a certain amount based on experience of how that
> amount of pushing or pumping has worked in the past, without really knowi
ng
> how much is added. The downside of this approach is documented by POHs
> having a section dedicated to what to do when the over priming catches
> fire. Rotec's strategy has the same issue as all other primers.
>
> So, if instead of a bulb, I mounted a plunger type servo on the diaphragm
> cover plate and tie that servo to the starter circuit. When I pushed the
> starter switch, the plunger would extend to push the diaphragm. The fuel
> valve would then only open when the starter was engaged. Fuel would neve
r
> be dumped in the intake unless air was being moved through the engine.
> This seems to remove most of the chance of a fire caused by over priming.
>
> I'm thinking a solenoid like this one would work. Small Push-Pull
> Solenoid - 12VDC
>
> but would like to see if there are any other suggestions.
>
> $14.87
> Small Push-Pull Solenoid - 12VDC
>
> Solenoids are basically electromagnets: they are made of a big coil of
> copper wire with an armature (a slug of m...
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a solenoid |
With an Ellison, the engine won't start without some sort of fuel supply.
It needs air flowing through it to create the pressure behind the diaphragm
to open the fuel valve.=C2- It is something of a chicken-and-egg problem
for the design.=C2- Whether opening the valve at starter engagement will
be enough fuel to start is an open question.=C2- If it isn't, I'll be ab
le to run a wire inside to a momentary switch for a more traditional primer
setup.
At this point though, I'm sort of stuck on finding an adequate solenoid.
m> wrote:
That's brilliant. I assume you will run the power to this plunger through
a switch so you can decide whether or not it actuates on any given start?
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 13:03 Ernest Christley wrote:
I replace an Aerovee carb with an Ellison TBI.=C2- The engine runs much s
moother, and fired up with even EGTs once I got it primed.=C2- I didn't h
ave a prime on the Aerovee, since the thing starts pouring fuel as soon as
you open the shutoff valve, so priming was just a matter of waiting a coupl
e seconds before cranking.=C2- Instead, I got her running by pouring the
fuel from my sump drainer into the intake air box.=C2- Not the safest thi
ng in the world to be doing, indicating a need for a real primer circuit.
=C2- I have an electric primer pump on hand, and I could just run a small
tube into the airbox to dump fuel right in front of the carbs intake.=C2
- This will require a momentary switch and a wire run, as well as a bunch
of fuel plumbing.=C2-
However, Rotec built a different type of primer into their version of the E
llison.=C2- It is a bulb that inflates a diaphragm, opening the fuel valv
e.=C2- For those not familiar with the Ellison, the diaphragm is inflated
by incoming air pressure while the engine is running, and serves as a shut
off after engine shutdown.=C2- I was thinking of modifying my Ellison to
play along the same line as Rotec.
The problem I have with airplane primers is that we dump some fuel in the i
ntake.=C2- How much to dump is an obfuscated educated guess.=C2- We pus
h a button or pump a handle a certain amount based on experience of how tha
t amount of pushing or pumping has worked in the past, without really knowi
ng how much is added.=C2- The downside of this approach is documented by
POHs having a section dedicated to what to do when the over priming catches
fire.=C2- Rotec's strategy has the same issue as all other primers.
So, if instead of a bulb, I mounted a plunger type servo on the diaphragm c
over plate and tie that servo to the starter circuit.=C2- When I pushed t
he starter switch, the plunger would extend to push the diaphragm.=C2- Th
e fuel valve would then only open when the starter was engaged.=C2- Fuel
would never be dumped in the intake unless air was being moved through the
engine.=C2- This seems to remove most of the chance of a fire caused by o
ver priming.
I'm thinking a solenoid like this one would work.=C2- Small Push-Pull So
lenoid - 12VDC=C2- but would like to see if there are any other suggestio
ns.=C2-
|
|
|
| $14.87 | |
|
|
|
| |
Small Push-Pull Solenoid - 12VDC
Solenoids are basically electromagnets: they are made of a big coil of copp
er wire with an armature (a slug of m...
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a solenoid |
This would be a better choice if it weren't so long.=C2- Mounting would
be really simplified by just drilling and tapping a single hole.
https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-XRN-2-5-Linear-Solenoid-Electromagnet/dp/B07D
M75BKK/ref=pd_sim_328_6/141-8437165-5384219?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0
7DM7M8M5&pd_rd_r=2bea8050-6213-11e9-b7b1-9768eea003d5&pd_rd_w=85TrC&pd_
rd_wg=Vi86G&pf_rd_p=90485860-83e9-4fd9-b838-b28a9b7fda30&pf_rd_r=ZWMY
PS2EGJX5RD254Y64&refRID=ZWMYPS2EGJX5RD254Y64&th=1
ey(at)att.net> wrote:
With an Ellison, the engine won't start without some sort of fuel supply.
It needs air flowing through it to create the pressure behind the diaphrag
m to open the fuel valve.=C2- It is something of a chicken-and-egg proble
m for the design.=C2- Whether opening the valve at starter engagement wil
l be enough fuel to start is an open question.=C2- If it isn't, I'll be a
ble to run a wire inside to a momentary switch for a more traditional prime
r setup.
At this point though, I'm sort of stuck on finding an adequate solenoid.
m> wrote:
That's brilliant. I assume you will run the power to this plunger through
a switch so you can decide whether or not it actuates on any given start?
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 13:03 Ernest Christley wrote:
I replace an Aerovee carb with an Ellison TBI.=C2- The engine runs much s
moother, and fired up with even EGTs once I got it primed.=C2- I didn't h
ave a prime on the Aerovee, since the thing starts pouring fuel as soon as
you open the shutoff valve, so priming was just a matter of waiting a coupl
e seconds before cranking.=C2- Instead, I got her running by pouring the
fuel from my sump drainer into the intake air box.=C2- Not the safest thi
ng in the world to be doing, indicating a need for a real primer circuit.
=C2- I have an electric primer pump on hand, and I could just run a small
tube into the airbox to dump fuel right in front of the carbs intake.=C2
- This will require a momentary switch and a wire run, as well as a bunch
of fuel plumbing.=C2-
However, Rotec built a different type of primer into their version of the E
llison.=C2- It is a bulb that inflates a diaphragm, opening the fuel valv
e.=C2- For those not familiar with the Ellison, the diaphragm is inflated
by incoming air pressure while the engine is running, and serves as a shut
off after engine shutdown.=C2- I was thinking of modifying my Ellison to
play along the same line as Rotec.
The problem I have with airplane primers is that we dump some fuel in the i
ntake.=C2- How much to dump is an obfuscated educated guess.=C2- We pus
h a button or pump a handle a certain amount based on experience of how tha
t amount of pushing or pumping has worked in the past, without really knowi
ng how much is added.=C2- The downside of this approach is documented by
POHs having a section dedicated to what to do when the over priming catches
fire.=C2- Rotec's strategy has the same issue as all other primers.
So, if instead of a bulb, I mounted a plunger type servo on the diaphragm c
over plate and tie that servo to the starter circuit.=C2- When I pushed t
he starter switch, the plunger would extend to push the diaphragm.=C2- Th
e fuel valve would then only open when the starter was engaged.=C2- Fuel
would never be dumped in the intake unless air was being moved through the
engine.=C2- This seems to remove most of the chance of a fire caused by o
ver priming.
I'm thinking a solenoid like this one would work.=C2- Small Push-Pull So
lenoid - 12VDC=C2- but would like to see if there are any other suggestio
ns.=C2-
|
|
|
| $14.87 | |
|
|
|
| |
Small Push-Pull Solenoid - 12VDC
Solenoids are basically electromagnets: they are made of a big coil of copp
er wire with an armature (a slug of m...
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a solenoid |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
What's wrong with a simple Bowden (choke) cable on a lever to actuate
the bulb? Only problem is, with no electrons involved, we can't talk
about it here.
Charlie
;-)
On 4/18/2019 3:00 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
> This would be a better choice if it weren't so long. Mounting would be
> really simplified by just drilling and tapping a single hole.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-XRN-2-5-Linear-Solenoid-Electromagnet/dp/B07DM75BKK/ref=pd_sim_328_6/141-8437165-5384219?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07DM7M8M5&pd_rd_r=2bea8050-6213-11e9-b7b1-9768eea003d5&pd_rd_w=85TrC&pd_rd_wg=Vi86G&pf_rd_p=90485860-83e9-4fd9-b838-b28a9b7fda30&pf_rd_r=ZWMYPS2EGJX5RD254Y64&refRID=ZWMYPS2EGJX5RD254Y64&th=1
>
> wrote:
>
>
> With an Ellison, the engine won't start without some sort of fuel
> supply. It needs air flowing through it to create the pressure behind
> the diaphragm to open the fuel valve. It is something of a
> chicken-and-egg problem for the design. Whether opening the valve at
> starter engagement will be enough fuel to start is an open question.
> If it isn't, I'll be able to run a wire inside to a momentary switch
> for a more traditional primer setup.
>
> At this point though, I'm sort of stuck on finding an adequate solenoid.
>
> wrote:
>
>
> That's brilliant. I assume you will run the power to this plunger
> through a switch so you can decide whether or not it actuates on any
> given start?
>
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 13:03 Ernest Christley > wrote:
>
> I replace an Aerovee carb with an Ellison TBI. The engine runs
> much smoother, and fired up with even EGTs once I got it primed.
> I didn't have a prime on the Aerovee, since the thing starts
> pouring fuel as soon as you open the shutoff valve, so priming was
> just a matter of waiting a couple seconds before cranking.
> Instead, I got her running by pouring the fuel from my sump
> drainer into the intake air box. Not the safest thing in the
> world to be doing, indicating a need for a real primer circuit. I
> have an electric primer pump on hand, and I could just run a small
> tube into the airbox to dump fuel right in front of the carbs
> intake. This will require a momentary switch and a wire run, as
> well as a bunch of fuel plumbing.
>
> However, Rotec built a different type of primer into their version
> of the Ellison. It is a bulb that inflates a diaphragm, opening
> the fuel valve. For those not familiar with the Ellison, the
> diaphragm is inflated by incoming air pressure while the engine is
> running, and serves as a shutoff after engine shutdown. I was
> thinking of modifying my Ellison to play along the same line as Rotec.
>
> The problem I have with airplane primers is that we dump some fuel
> in the intake. How much to dump is an obfuscated educated guess.
> We push a button or pump a handle a certain amount based on
> experience of how that amount of pushing or pumping has worked in
> the past, without really knowing how much is added. The downside
> of this approach is documented by POHs having a section dedicated
> to what to do when the over priming catches fire. Rotec's
> strategy has the same issue as all other primers.
>
> So, if instead of a bulb, I mounted a plunger type servo on the
> diaphragm cover plate and tie that servo to the starter circuit.
> When I pushed the starter switch, the plunger would extend to push
> the diaphragm. The fuel valve would then only open when the
> starter was engaged. Fuel would never be dumped in the intake
> unless air was being moved through the engine. This seems to
> remove most of the chance of a fire caused by over priming.
>
> I'm thinking a solenoid like this one would work.Small Push-Pull
> Solenoid - 12VDC
>
> but would like to see if there are any other suggestions.
>
> $14.87
>
>
>
>
> Small Push-Pull Solenoid - 12VDC
>
> Solenoids are basically electromagnets: they are made of a big
> coil of copper wire with an armature (a slug of m...
>
>
>
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing a solenoid |
Activating the primer and starter at the same time is a juggling act.=C2
- So you drop back to the "dump some fuel in the intake and hope it is th
e right amount" method that we're all used to.
7(at)gmail.com> wrote:
What's wrong with a simple Bowden (choke) cable on a lever to actuate the
bulb? Only problem is, with no electrons involved, we can't talk about it
here.
Charlie
;-)
On 4/18/2019 3:00 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
This would be a better choice if it weren't so long.=C2- Mounting would
be really simplified by just drilling and tapping a single hole.
https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-XRN-2-5-Linear-Solenoid-Electromagnet/dp/B0
7DM75BKK/ref=pd_sim_328_6/141-8437165-5384219?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=
B07DM7M8M5&pd_rd_r=2bea8050-6213-11e9-b7b1-9768eea003d5&pd_rd_w=85TrC&p
d_rd_wg=Vi86G&pf_rd_p=90485860-83e9-4fd9-b838-b28a9b7fda30&pf_rd_r=ZW
MYPS2EGJX5RD254Y64&refRID=ZWMYPS2EGJX5RD254Y64&th=1
tley(at)att.net> wrote:
With an Ellison, the engine won't start without some sort of fuel sup
ply. It needs air flowing through it to create the pressure behind the diap
hragm to open the fuel valve.=C2- It is something of a chicken-and-egg pr
oblem for the design.=C2- Whether opening the valve at starter engagement
will be enough fuel to start is an open question.=C2- If it isn't, I'll
be able to run a wire inside to a momentary switch for a more traditional p
rimer setup.
At this point though, I'm sort of stuck on finding an adequate solenoid.
com> wrote:
That's brilliant. I assume you will run the power to this plunger thro
ugh a switch so you can decide whether or not it actuates on any given star
t?
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 13:03 Ernest Christley wrote:
I replace an Aerovee carb with an Ellison TBI.=C2- The engine run
s much smoother, and fired up with even EGTs once I got it primed.=C2- I
didn't have a prime on the Aerovee, since the thing starts pouring fuel as
soon as you open the shutoff valve, so priming was just a matter of waitin
g a couple seconds before cranking.=C2- Instead, I got her running by pou
ring the fuel from my sump drainer into the intake air box.=C2- Not the s
afest thing in the world to be doing, indicating a need for a real primer c
ircuit.=C2- I have an electric primer pump on hand, and I could just run
a small tube into the airbox to dump fuel right in front of the carbs inta
ke.=C2- This will require a momentary switch and a wire run, as well as a
bunch of fuel plumbing.=C2-
However, Rotec built a different type of primer into their version of the
Ellison.=C2- It is a bulb that inflates a diaphragm, opening the fuel va
lve.=C2- For those not familiar with the Ellison, the diaphragm is inflat
ed by incoming air pressure while the engine is running, and serves as a s
hutoff after engine shutdown.=C2- I was thinking of modifying my Ellison
to play along the same line as Rotec.
The problem I have with airplane primers is that we dump some fuel in the
intake.=C2- How much to dump is an obfuscated educated guess.=C2- We p
ush a button or pump a handle a certain amount based on experience of how t
hat amount of pushing or pumping has worked in the past, without really kn
owing how much is added.=C2- The downside of this approach is documented
by POHs having a section dedicated to what to do when the over priming cat
ches fire.=C2- Rotec's strategy has the same issue as all other primers.
So, if instead of a bulb, I mounted a plunger type servo on the diaphragm
cover plate and tie that servo to the starter circuit.=C2- When I pushe
d the starter switch, the plunger would extend to push the diaphragm.=C2-
The fuel valve would then only open when the starter was engaged.=C2- Fu
el would never be dumped in the intake unless air was being moved through t
he engine.=C2- This seems to remove most of the chance of a fire caused b
y over priming.
I'm thinking a solenoid like this one would work.=C2- Small Push-Pull
Solenoid - 12VDC=C2- but would like to see if there are any other suggest
ions.=C2-
|
|
|
| $14.87 |
|
|
|
|
| |
Small Push-Pull Solenoid - 12VDC
Solenoids are basicallyelectromagnets: they are made of a big coil of coppe
r wire with an armature (a slug of m...
|
|
|
| | Virus-free. www.avast.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | metric threaded switches |
| From: | "bobnoffs" <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
hi all,
i am looking for a momentary push button switch to use in a panel hole meant for
a breaker. 1/4' and 1/2' switches are common but i thought if there is a source
for switches calling for metric sized holes i might find something.
mouser and digikey are kind of daunting with 200,000 choices . i don't know how
to sort for barrel size if there was such a thing.
thanks for any help. any sources would be appreciated.
bob noffs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488815#488815
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
At 06:10 AM 4/19/2019, you wrote:
>
>hi all,
> i am looking for a momentary push button switch to use in a panel
> hole meant for a breaker. 1/4' and 1/2' switches are common but i
> thought if there is a source for switches calling for metric sized
> holes i might find something.
> mouser and digikey are kind of daunting with 200,000 choices . i
> don't know how to sort for barrel size if there was such a thing.
> thanks for any help. any sources would be appreciated.
How much current? How thick the panel?
If a 1/4" switch is electrically suitable,
then I'd cut a shoulder washer to keep
it centered in the oversized hole.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
>
> How much current? How thick the panel?
> If a 1/4" switch is electrically suitable,
> then I'd cut a shoulder washer to keep
> it centered in the oversized hole.
What is the diameter of your present
hole?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
panel is .062 and current is less than 1 amp. placard is already cut to
surround 6 holes so i would rather not overlay a washer on another overlay.
bob noffs
On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 11:41 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 06:10 AM 4/19/2019, you wrote:
>
>
> hi all,
> i am looking for a momentary push button switch to use in a panel hole
> meant for a breaker. 1/4' and 1/2' switches are common but i thought if
> there is a source for switches calling for metric sized holes i might find
> something.
> mouser and digikey are kind of daunting with 200,000 choices . i don't
> know how to sort for barrel size if there was such a thing.
> thanks for any help. any sources would be appreciated.
>
>
> How much current? How thick the panel?
> If a 1/4" switch is electrically suitable,
> then I'd cut a shoulder washer to keep
> it centered in the oversized hole.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
What is the diameter of the existing hole that you intend to mount a switch in?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488826#488826
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
Bob,
Have you thought about simply up-sizing the hole to fit the push button
switch that you want to install?
-- Art Z.
On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 6:24 AM bobnoffs wrote:
>
> hi all,
> i am looking for a momentary push button switch to use in a panel hole
> meant for a breaker. 1/4' and 1/2' switches are common but i thought if
> there is a source for switches calling for metric sized holes i might find
> something.
> mouser and digikey are kind of daunting with 200,000 choices . i don't
> know how to sort for barrel size if there was such a thing.
> thanks for any help. any sources would be appreciated.
> bob noffs
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
At 11:56 AM 4/19/2019, you wrote:
>panel is .062 and current is less than 1 amp.
>placard is already cut to surround 6 holes so i
>would rather not overlay a washer on another overlay.
>=C2 bob noffs
The shoulder washer would be bonded on the back side,
the 'bushing in the hole would be flush with
the front surface. I think I've got a 1/4-40
tap around here somewhere. It would be about
a 10m job on the lathe . . .
Do you care about the size of the button? Push
buttons with 1/4" barrels are pretty small.
Emacs!
C&K 8121SHZGE
SWITCH PUSHBUTTON SPDT 1A 120V
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
| From: | "hairy_kiwi" <hamish.mead(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Bob,
Without knowing the exact panel hole size for the CB (or the CB part number) you
wish to replace with a switch, this is a bit of a stab in the dark...
Short answer
I can recommend a couple of APEM series pushbutton switches I used in an aircraft
rewire job last year:
- APEM IM series
https://www.apem.com/us/im-series-13.html
RS Stock No. 864-4475 | Mfr. Part No. IMR7Z422104UL
12.0mm (0.472) mounting bushing.
These have a really nice tactile and audible feedback click - ideal for PTT switches.
Theyre rated IP67 (front seal) and designed for use in harsh, noisy environments,
including those with vibration. Additionally, the terminals can either
accept 2.8mm (0.11) spade receptacle terminals, such as TE 165565-1, or they
can be soldered.
- APEM 8000 series
https://www.apem.com/us/8000-series-354.html
RS Stock No. 103-5732 | Mfr Part No. 8632A
Either 6.35mm (1/4) or 10.9mm (15/32) mounting bushing sizes. The actuation force
is higher than the IM series and more of a snap-clunk than a click. Youll probably
also want a snap on pushbutton top for this switch - available in various
colours and typically in bags of 5.
Longer answer
Neither of the above suggestions are possibly exactly what youre looking for, so:
Visit the APEM website - other manufacturers offer similar, but I like the build
quality and features available in APEM products.
In the parametric search CONFIGURATOR, select:
Actuator: Pushbutton,
Bushing dimensions: acceptable panel hole sizes, min-thru-max inclusive,
Leave all the other options blank, at least initially.
Then, from the data sheets of those product ranges you find able to meet your minimum
requirements AND superficially/functionally appealing, see if your other
required/desirable features are available as options.
Youll discover most switches have features that can be tailored to a particular
requirement by tweaking the part number. After that, its a matter of plugging
your newly determined part number into the search bar on your preferred suppliers
website. Better still, plug it into Octopart.com to see if any of the global
suppliers stock it - and the smallest MOQ in which its actually available
for purchase. If that process turns up nothing, try using the basic part number
(i.e. the part number describing the highest level features, without all the
suffix options, eg APEM 8632) to try to discover if what you seek is actually
available to buy in unit quantities. Rinse and repeat.
Sourcing parts is, by its nature a tedious and often disappointing process. Having
not done any aircraft wiring work for some years, for last years project I
ended up ordering a number of styles and types of switches in order to find the
most suitable and appealing - from both ease of installation and end use perspectives.
For ease of installation while ensuring excellent wire strain relief,
I particularly like switch / LED indicator / CB products designed to accept
TE PIDG FASTON terminals, either in the 0.25 or 0.11 widths.
The suppliers parametric search engines can indeed be daunting and give less than
useful, or downright erroneous results - especially with the vast number of
options available within a product range. Nevertheless, they can be a useful
starting point. From there, Id download the manufacturers data sheet, rinse and
repeat - as above.
Tell us your current panel hole size and the max size youd consider enlarging it
to, and I or others might be able to give better recommendations.
Hamish
Ledbury, UK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488845#488845
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
size of the button doesn't matter.it is used to reset an ovm if it trips.
probably only used for testing. if ovm trips in the air i think i wouldn't
be touching anything if the prop is still turning and i would be wanting a
runway!
bob noffs
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 11:34 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:56 AM 4/19/2019, you wrote:
>
> panel is .062 and current is less than 1 amp. placard is already cut to
> surround 6 holes so i would rather not overlay a washer on another overla
y.
> =C3=82 bob noffs
>
>
> The shoulder washer would be bonded on the back side,
> the 'bushing in the hole would be flush with
> the front surface. I think I've got a 1/4-40
> tap around here somewhere. It would be about
> a 10m job on the lathe . . .
>
> Do you care about the size of the button? Push
> buttons with 1/4" barrels are pretty small.
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
>
> *C&K 8121SHZGE * SWITCH PUSHBUTTON SPDT 1A 120V
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
At 12:38 PM 4/21/2019, you wrote:
>size of the button doesn't <http://matter.it>matter.it is used to
>reset an ovm if it trips. probably only used for testing. if ovm
>trips in the air i think i wouldn't be touching anything if the prop
>is still turning and i would be wanting a runway!
Alternator failure, while vexing, should
NOT be an emergency. Your battery should
be a reliable source of energy for
comfortable arrival with the earth.
But okay, what size is your existing
hole and what is the total panel
thickness (.062 plus overlay)?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
hi bob, panel is .062. overlay is .02 and panel hole is .433.
while an alternator failure would not be an emergency for me the thought
of it with this honda engine gets my attention more than it would with the
jabiru, my last engine. i do have 2 batteries independent of each other, 2
fuel pumps, and 2 ecu's but a failed alternator would really change my
priorities. not having ov protection on the output of the alternator
could make it an emergency if the ''impossible'' did happen. i have gotten
a lot of good input from this forum about this.
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:00 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 12:38 PM 4/21/2019, you wrote:
>
> size of the button doesn't matter.it is used to reset an ovm if it trips.
> probably only used for testing. if ovm trips in the air i think i wouldn't
> be touching anything if the prop is still turning and i would be wanting a
> runway!
>
>
> Alternator failure, while vexing, should
> NOT be an emergency. Your battery should
> be a reliable source of energy for
> comfortable arrival with the earth.
>
> But okay, what size is your existing
> hole and what is the total panel
> thickness (.062 plus overlay)?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Digikey has a search function with one of the parameters being mounting hole diameter.
The hole in your panel is 11mm. I could not find a push button switch
with a diameter less than 11mm. But there are several with a diameter between
11.8 and 12mm. The panel hole would need to be enlarged 1mm.
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/switches/pushbutton-switches/199?FV=c3c00ef%2Cc3c00f7%2Cc3c0107%2Cc3c013d%2Cc3c017e%2Cc3c0051%2Cffe000c7&quantity=0&ColumnSort=783&page=3&stock=1&pageSize=25
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488852#488852
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
At 08:39 PM 4/21/2019, you wrote:
>hi bob, panel is .062. overlay is .02 and panel hole is .433.
Yeah, the miniature breakers are 7/16-32 thread.
Here's what I was trying to describe:
Emacs!
I think I've got some alum rod stock
and a 1/4-40 tap around here. Could
probably cut this out for you in the
not too distant future.
The C&K push button would
thread in from the back with enough
protrusion to install one of the nuts.
You could probably assemble the washer
and nut onto the switch and then bond
it into place.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
hi bob,
i appreciate your offer but it just isn't worth your time and energy to
do all this. the panel isn't mounted and it will take me a minute to
ream/drill the panel and overlay to a larger diameter to accommodate an
existing switch. wasn't my first choice but it will be fine.
thank you for the offer.
bob noffs
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 11:43 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 08:39 PM 4/21/2019, you wrote:
>
> hi bob, panel is .062. overlay is .02 and panel hole is .433.
>
>
> Yeah, the miniature breakers are 7/16-32 thread.
>
> Here's what I was trying to describe:
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> I think I've got some alum rod stock
> and a 1/4-40 tap around here. Could
> probably cut this out for you in the
> not too distant future.
>
> The C&K push button would
> thread in from the back with enough
> protrusion to install one of the nuts.
>
> You could probably assemble the washer
> and nut onto the switch and then bond
> it into place.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: metric threaded switches |
thanks hamish,
i will look into it. looking at digikey or mouser i always get the feeling
i better have the afternoon free.
bob noffs
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 11:56 AM hairy_kiwi wrote:
> hamish.mead(at)gmail.com>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Without knowing the exact panel hole size for the CB (or the CB part
> number) you wish to replace with a switch, this is a bit of a stab in the
> dark...
>
> Short answer
> I can recommend a couple of APEM series pushbutton switches I used in an
> aircraft rewire job last year:
> - APEM IM series
> https://www.apem.com/us/im-series-13.html
> RS Stock No. 864-4475 | Mfr. Part No. IMR7Z422104UL
> 12.0mm (0.472=9D) mounting bushing.
> These have a really nice tactile and audible feedback click - ideal for
> PTT switches. They=99re rated IP67 (front seal) and designed
=9Cfor use in
> harsh, noisy environments, including those with vibration=9D. Addit
ionally,
> the terminals can either accept 2.8mm (0.11=9D) spade receptacle te
rminals,
> such as TE 165565-1, or they can be soldered.
>
> - APEM 8000 series
> https://www.apem.com/us/8000-series-354.html
> RS Stock No. 103-5732 | Mfr Part No. 8632A
> Either 6.35mm (1/4=9D) or 10.9mm (15/32=9D) mounting bushing
sizes. The
> actuation force is higher than the IM series and more of a snap-clunk tha
n
> a click. You=99ll probably also want a snap on pushbutton top for t
his switch
> - available in various colours and typically in bags of 5.
>
>
> Longer answer
> Neither of the above suggestions are possibly exactly what you=99re
looking
> for, so:
> Visit the APEM website - other manufacturers offer similar, but I like th
e
> build quality and features available in APEM products.
> In the parametric search =98CONFIGURATOR=99, select:
> Actuator: Pushbutton,
> Bushing dimensions: acceptable panel hole sizes, min-thru-max inclusive,
> Leave all the other options blank, at least initially.
>
> Then, from the data sheets of those product ranges you find able to meet
> your minimum requirements AND superficially/functionally appealing, see i
f
> your other required/desirable features are available as options.
> You=99ll discover most switches have features that can be tailored
to a
> particular requirement by tweaking the part number. After that, it
=99s a
> matter of plugging your newly determined part number into the search bar
on
> your preferred supplier=99s website. Better still, plug it into Oct
opart.com
> to see if any of the global suppliers stock it - and the smallest MOQ in
> which it=99s actually available for purchase. If that process turns
up
> nothing, try using the basic part number (i.e. the part number describing
> the highest level features, without all the suffix options, eg APEM 8632)
> to try to discover if what you seek is actually available to buy in unit
> quantities. Rinse and repeat.
>
> Sourcing parts is, by its nature a tedious and often disappointing
> process. Having not done any aircraft wiring work for some years, for las
t
> year=99s project I ended up ordering a number of styles and types o
f switches
> in order to find the most suitable and appealing - from both ease of
> installation and end use perspectives. For ease of installation while
> ensuring excellent wire strain relief, I particularly like switch / LED
> indicator / CB products designed to accept TE PIDG FASTON terminals, eith
er
> in the 0.25=9D or 0.11=9D widths.
>
> The suppliers=99 parametric search engines can indeed be daunting a
nd give
> less than useful, or downright erroneous results - especially with the va
st
> number of options available within a product range. Nevertheless, they ca
n
> be a useful starting point. From there, I=99d download the manufact
urer=99s
> data sheet, rinse and repeat - as above.
>
> Tell us your current panel hole size and the max size you=99d consi
der
> enlarging it to, and I or others might be able to give better
> recommendations.
>
> Hamish
> Ledbury, UK
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488845#488845
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How to submit a reliable essay? |
| From: | "kratos" <steamcsgogrizzly(at)gmail.com> |
I want to order thesis on https://paperleaf.ca/do-my-homework/ so the defence would
be assessed with highest mark. I know there is a lot of what they do, abstracts
and homeworks are among them for sure. There are very good reviews about
them. What can you say about this service? Should I trust them? This thesis
is really important for me, it`s just that I can`t screw this up.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488859#488859
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | One sender 2 indicators |
Gents and ladies. Can one capacitive fuel level sender ( 0 to 5v) be connected
to 2 electronic indicators ???
Thanks
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How to submit a reliable essay? |
Chief, You just announced to the world on a forum dedicated to crafting
aircraft electrical systems that you intend to cheat in order to pile it
higher and deeper. You know how nothing ever goes away on the internet?
Perhaps this is a good time for you to re-think your life plan. As the kids
say, Just sayin'
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 9:20 AM kratos wrote:
> steamcsgogrizzly(at)gmail.com>
>
> I want to order thesis on https://paperleaf.ca/do-my-homework/ so the
> defence would be assessed with highest mark. I know there is a lot of wha
t
> they do, abstracts and homeworks are among them for sure. There are very
> good reviews about them. What can you say about this service? Should I
> trust them? This thesis is really important for me, it`s just that I can`
t
> screw this up.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488859#488859
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One sender 2 indicators |
At 10:24 PM 4/22/2019, you wrote:
>
>
>Gents and ladies. Can one capacitive fuel level sender ( 0 to 5v) be
>connected to 2 electronic indicators ???
Absolutely . . . but it may take some
'system integration'. What kind of
'indicators' come with the system?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How to submit a reliable essay? |
Hello Richard. An excellent point about the indelibility of internet
content. Perhaps you could help me with another internet conundrum, this
email I received yesterday:
Sorry to break into your privacy in this manner,
I'm Smadar Barber-Tsadik, Deputy Chief Executive Officer
of First International Bank of Israel Ltd (FIBI).
I am getting in touch with you regarding an extremely
important and urgent matter. If you would oblige me the
opportunity, I shall provide you with details upon your
response.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the essay email you were responding
to is NOT a genuine inquiry for your opinion ON the specified website, it
is spam designed to drive traffic TO that website. By responding, you
assist the spammer in verifying that this is indeed a good place to place
spam so that others will read it. Hoping you will find this pleasingly and
God bless you abundantly
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:33 PM Richard Girard wrote:
> Chief, You just announced to the world on a forum dedicated to crafting
> aircraft electrical systems that you intend to cheat in order to pile it
> higher and deeper. You know how nothing ever goes away on the internet?
> Perhaps this is a good time for you to re-think your life plan. As the ki
ds
> say, Just sayin'
>
> Rick
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 9:20 AM kratos wrote
:
>
>> steamcsgogrizzly(at)gmail.com>
>>
>> I want to order thesis on https://paperleaf.ca/do-my-homework/ so the
>> defence would be assessed with highest mark. I know there is a lot of wh
at
>> they do, abstracts and homeworks are among them for sure. There are very
>> good reviews about them. What can you say about this service? Should I
>> trust them? This thesis is really important for me, it`s just that I can
`t
>> screw this up.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488859#488859
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.
=9D Groucho Marx
> <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | argoldman(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: One sender 2 indicators |
Thanks bob,
Indicator =C2- =C2-1---Dynon Skyviwew requires 0-5VIndicator=C2- =C2
- 2=C2- =C2-Real World Solutions=C2- =C2-EM-3 (rotary) requires 0
-5V
The senders are 0-5V , Prinsten
Rich
In a message dated 4/22/2019 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, nuckolls.bo
b(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
At 10:24 PM 4/22/2019, you wrote:
Gents and ladies. Can one capacitive fuel level sender ( 0 to 5v) be connec
ted to 2 electronic indicators ???
=C2- Absolutely . . . but it may take some
=C2- 'system integration'. What kind of
=C2- 'indicators' come with the system?
=C2- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Happ <phapp(at)yhpb.com> |
Hi,
I have B&C's FOT on my RV-8 firewall. It comes with brass hardware.
However I need a longer bolt for the thickness of the connectors for the
standard battery and engine grounds. In AC 43.13-1B (11-76 11-79) I see
very specific material types called out for bonding connection hardware.
Question is, do I need to stick with brass or can I go with the standard
cadmium plated AN hardware we use everywhere else in our homebuilts? If
Bob suggests brass, what's a good supplier?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FOT Hardware |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
With large current connectors, such as battery ground and engine ground
you do NOT need to connect to the FOT. Connect to any bolt going through
the firewall and you will be fine. The FOT grounds are for avionics that
are low current, prone to ground loops etc. Your high current
connections are fine using the metal airframe for ground. AN hardware is
also fine for those connections. If you try to stack those large
connectors all together with the bolt going through your FOT you are
asking for something not connecting well. On my RV-10 Vans has the
engine ground using the engine mount firewall bolts as the engine ground
connection. Maybe not ideal, but it works.
On 4/23/2019 4:52 AM, Paul Happ wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have B&C's FOT on my RV-8 firewall. It comes with brass hardware.
>
> However I need a longer bolt for the thickness of the connectors for the
> standard battery and engine grounds. In AC 43.13-1B (11-76 11-79) I
> see very specific material types called out for bonding connection
> hardware.
>
> Question is, do I need to stick with brass or can I go with the
> standard cadmium plated AN hardware we use everywhere else in our
> homebuilts? If Bob suggests brass, what's a good supplier?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FOT Hardware |
What diameter are the B&C bolts? I made my own FOT using a brass blank
switchplate & tabs from an electronic supplier, and for the bolt, I used a
5/16" brass bolt soldered to the plate. The bolts are available in pairs,
complete with brass nuts, from your local hardware store or big box store.
You just need to look in an unconventional area to find them. :-)
https://www.google.com/search?q=toilet+hold+down+bolts&oq=toilet+hold+down+bolts&aqs=chrome.0.0l6.8822j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Charlie
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 6:58 AM Paul Happ wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have B&C's FOT on my RV-8 firewall. It comes with brass hardware.
>
> However I need a longer bolt for the thickness of the connectors for the
> standard battery and engine grounds. In AC 43.13-1B (11-76 11-79) I see
> very specific material types called out for bonding connection hardware.
>
> Question is, do I need to stick with brass or can I go with the standard
> cadmium plated AN hardware we use everywhere else in our homebuilts? If
> Bob suggests brass, what's a good supplier?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FOT Hardware |
Please remind me, what is FOT?
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 04:20 Kelly McMullen wrote:
> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> With large current connectors, such as battery ground and engine ground
> you do NOT need to connect to the FOT. Connect to any bolt going through
> the firewall and you will be fine. The FOT grounds are for avionics that
> are low current, prone to ground loops etc. Your high current
> connections are fine using the metal airframe for ground. AN hardware is
> also fine for those connections. If you try to stack those large
> connectors all together with the bolt going through your FOT you are
> asking for something not connecting well. On my RV-10 Vans has the
> engine ground using the engine mount firewall bolts as the engine ground
> connection. Maybe not ideal, but it works.
>
> On 4/23/2019 4:52 AM, Paul Happ wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have B&C's FOT on my RV-8 firewall. It comes with brass hardware.
> >
> > However I need a longer bolt for the thickness of the connectors for the
> > standard battery and engine grounds. In AC 43.13-1B (11-76 11-79) I
> > see very specific material types called out for bonding connection
> > hardware.
> >
> > Question is, do I need to stick with brass or can I go with the
> > standard cadmium plated AN hardware we use everywhere else in our
> > homebuilts? If Bob suggests brass, what's a good supplier?
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: FOT Hardware |
forest of tabs
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 10:51 AM Ken Ryan wrote:
> Please remind me, what is FOT?
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Quinn <jquinn3(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How to submit a reliable essay? |
To Richard - Well said!
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 10:33 PM Richard Girard wrote
:
> Chief, You just announced to the world on a forum dedicated to crafting
> aircraft electrical systems that you intend to cheat in order to pile it
> higher and deeper. You know how nothing ever goes away on the internet?
> Perhaps this is a good time for you to re-think your life plan. As the ki
ds
> say, Just sayin'
>
> Rick
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 9:20 AM kratos wrote
:
>
>> steamcsgogrizzly(at)gmail.com>
>>
>> I want to order thesis on https://paperleaf.ca/do-my-homework/ so the
>> defence would be assessed with highest mark. I know there is a lot of wh
at
>> they do, abstracts and homeworks are among them for sure. There are very
>> good reviews about them. What can you say about this service? Should I
>> trust them? This thesis is really important for me, it`s just that I can
`t
>> screw this up.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488859#488859
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.
=9D Groucho Marx
> <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Greenley <wgreenley(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How to submit a reliable essay? |
This could also just be part of a Gorilla marketing campaign for the
service.
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 2:39 PM James Quinn wrote:
> To Richard - Well said!
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 10:33 PM Richard Girard
> wrote:
>
>> Chief, You just announced to the world on a forum dedicated to crafting
>> aircraft electrical systems that you intend to cheat in order to pile it
>> higher and deeper. You know how nothing ever goes away on the internet?
>> Perhaps this is a good time for you to re-think your life plan. As the k
ids
>> say, Just sayin'
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 9:20 AM kratos
>> wrote:
>>
>>> steamcsgogrizzly(at)gmail.com>
>>>
>>> I want to order thesis on https://paperleaf.ca/do-my-homework/ so the
>>> defence would be assessed with highest mark. I know there is a lot of w
hat
>>> they do, abstracts and homeworks are among them for sure. There are ver
y
>>> good reviews about them. What can you say about this service? Should I
>>> trust them? This thesis is really important for me, it`s just that I ca
n`t
>>> screw this up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488859#488859
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> -
>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.
=9D Groucho
>> Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How to submit a reliable essay? |
Guerilla. Gorillas are quite different.
It's obviously not genuine.
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 14:47 William Greenley wrote:
> This could also just be part of a Gorilla marketing campaign for the
> service.
>
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 2:39 PM James Quinn wrote:
>
>> To Richard - Well said!
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 10:33 PM Richard Girard
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Chief, You just announced to the world on a forum dedicated to crafting
>>> aircraft electrical systems that you intend to cheat in order to pile i
t
>>> higher and deeper. You know how nothing ever goes away on the internet?
>>> Perhaps this is a good time for you to re-think your life plan. As the
kids
>>> say, Just sayin'
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 9:20 AM kratos
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> steamcsgogrizzly(at)gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> I want to order thesis on https://paperleaf.ca/do-my-homework/ so the
>>>> defence would be assessed with highest mark. I know there is a lot of
what
>>>> they do, abstracts and homeworks are among them for sure. There are ve
ry
>>>> good reviews about them. What can you say about this service? Should I
>>>> trust them? This thesis is really important for me, it`s just that I c
an`t
>>>> screw this up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488859#488859
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> -
>>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.
=9D Groucho
>>> Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>>>
>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The joys of a Z-14 during an charging system failure |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
Thanks for sharing your experience!
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488911#488911
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FOT Hardware |
forest of tabs
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 11:54 AM Art Zemon wrote:
> forest of tabs
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 10:51 AM Ken Ryan wrote:
>
>> Please remind me, what is FOT?
>>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One sender 2 indicators |
Modern instrumentation generally present a very
small load on the sensor driving it. I.e. has
a high input impedance.
You can probably parallel the two displays
with no difficulty. Power the sensor from
ONE source only. Tie grounds for the indicators
and sensor to your avionics ground feature.
Parallel only the 0-5v signal to the pair of
displays.
Bob . . .
At 04:56 AM 4/23/2019, you wrote:
>Thanks bob,
>
>Indicator 1---Dynon Skyviwew requires 0-5V
>Indicator 2 Real World Solutions EM-3 (rotary) requires 0-5V
>
>The senders are 0-5V , Prinsten
>
>Rich
>
>In a message dated 4/22/2019 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time,
>nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
>
>At 10:24 PM 4/22/2019, you wrote:
>
>
>Gents and ladies. Can one capacitive fuel level sender ( 0 to 5v) be
>connected to 2 electronic indicators ???
>
>
> Absolutely . . . but it may take some
> 'system integration'. What kind of
> 'indicators' come with the system?
>
>
> Bob . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One sender 2 indicators |
Thanks bob. That=99s good news
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 26, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroele
ctric.com> wrote:
>
> Modern instrumentation generally present a very
> small load on the sensor driving it. I.e. has
> a high input impedance.
>
> You can probably parallel the two displays
> with no difficulty. Power the sensor from
> ONE source only. Tie grounds for the indicators
> and sensor to your avionics ground feature.
> Parallel only the 0-5v signal to the pair of
> displays.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> At 04:56 AM 4/23/2019, you wrote:
>> Thanks bob,
>>
>> Indicator 1---Dynon Skyviwew requires 0-5V
>> Indicator 2 Real World Solutions EM-3 (rotary) requires 0-5V
>>
>> The senders are 0-5V , Prinsten
>>
>> Rich
>>
>> In a message dated 4/22/2019 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, nuckolls.
bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
>>
>> At 10:24 PM 4/22/2019, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Gents and ladies. Can one capacitive fuel level sender ( 0 to 5v) be conn
ected to 2 electronic indicators ???
>>
>>
>> Absolutely . . . but it may take some
>> 'system integration'. What kind of
>> 'indicators' come with the system?
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
==========================
==========================
==========================
==========================
==========================
==========================
======================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tachometer Mitchell Rotax 912 |
| From: | DANIEL PELLETIER <pelletie1959(at)me.com> |
Anyone can tell me how to wire my tachometer Mitchell D1-112-5240. There is 3 pins
on the backplate G for the ground and a + and -. From my Rotax 912 uls, I
understand that I must use the blue/yellow and the white/yellow as it appears
on that instructions.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/847567/Rotax-912-Series.html?page=118#manual
Which oen is the (+) and which one is the (-)?
Daniel Pelletier
Envoy de mon iPad
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tachometer Mitchell Rotax 912 |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The Blu/Yel and Wht/Yel wires are correct for the tach coil. But they are AC,
not DC. The Mitchell website lists the D1-112-5240 as Special-Rotax 914. That
infers that it is made for an AC tach signal. But it is best to call the manufacturer
to verify.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488992#488992
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tachometer Mitchell Rotax 912 |
| From: | Roger Curtis <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net> |
CiAgICAKSSB3YXNuJ3QgZ2V0dGluZyBlbWFpbHMgZnJvbSB0aGUgbGlzdCBmb3IgcXVpdGUgc29t
ZSB0aW1lLCBidXQgbXlzdGVyaW91c2x5IEkgZ290IDIgeWVzdGVyZGF5LsKgIEFueW9uZSBrbm93
IHdoeT9Sb2dlclNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBWZXJpem9uIFdpcmVsZXNzIDRHIExURSBzbWFydHBob25l
CgotLS0tLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBtZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tLS0tCkZyb206IHVzZXI5MjUzIDxmcmFu
c2V3QGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gCkRhdGU6IDA0LzI4LzIwMTkgIDE1OjIyICAoR01ULTA1OjAwKSAKVG86
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aHA/cD00ODg5OTIjNDg4OTkyXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09
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cmVzIE5hdmlnYXRvciB0byBicm93c2VfLT0gdGhlIG1hbnkgTGlzdCB1dGlsaXRpZXMgc3VjaCBh
cyBMaXN0IFVuL1N1YnNjcmlwdGlvbixfLT0gQXJjaGl2ZSBTZWFyY2ggJiBEb3dubG9hZCwgNy1E
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a2khXy09wqDCoCAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3dpa2kubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbV8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09
PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09Xy09wqDCoMKgwqDC
oMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgIC0gTGlzdCBDb250cmlidXRpb24gV2ViIFNpdGUgLV8tPcKgIFRoYW5r
IHlvdSBmb3IgeW91ciBnZW5lcm91cyBzdXBwb3J0IV8tPcKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDC
oMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqAgLU1hdHQgRHJhbGxlLCBMaXN0IEFk
bWluLl8tPcKgwqAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9jb250cmlidXRpb25fLT09
PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09
PQ=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tachometer Mitchell Rotax 912 |
Check your spam folder.
We've been having an increase in spam messages get through to the list late
ly.=C2- The filters many providers have will have trained to more likely
detect the list messages as spam.
rter.net> wrote:
I wasn't getting emails from the list for quite some time, but mysterious
ly I got 2 yesterday.=C2- Anyone know why?
Roger
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 04/28/2019 15:22 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tachometer Mitchell Rotax 912
The Blu/Yel and Wht/Yel wires are correct for the tach coil.=C2- But they
are AC, not DC.=C2- The Mitchell website lists the D1-112-5240 as Specia
l-Rotax 914.=C2- That infers that it is made for an AC tach signal.=C2-
But it is best to call the manufacturer to verify.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488992#488992
ric-List Email Forum -
-=C2-=C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-=C2- - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
- - List Contribution Web Site -
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bobnoffs" <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
hi all,
the past 6 months i have spent time looking into ovm's. i have just completed
installation and tested one from perihelion. as the ad says 'about the size of
a domino'. it actuates a relay on the output of my alternator. instructions and
schematics were excellent and eric [owner] was very helpful.
very simple. at 16.2 volts this unit opens the circuit to the relay coil and
lights up an led on the panel.
bob noffs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489034#489034
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John M Tipton" <john(at)tiptonuk.eu> |
Hi Guys (Bob)
When a twisted pair is required (eg: Power and ground to Radio), do you take both
back to the fuse panel, then lead off the ground wire to the ground block
( which is a return route - L form) or lead off the ground wire to the ground
block en route (it's only half distance to the ground block - ie: T form)
To clarify: the route to the ground block is 15 inches and to the Fuse bus 30 inches.
Regards
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489037#489037
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TWISTED PAIRS |
At 10:43 AM 5/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>Hi Guys (Bob)
>
>When a twisted pair is required (eg: Power and ground to Radio), do
>you take both back to the fuse panel, then lead off the ground wire
>to the ground block ( which is a return route - L form) or lead off
>the ground wire to the ground block en route (it's only half
>distance to the ground block - ie: T form)
>
>To clarify: the route to the ground block is 15 inches and to the
>Fuse bus 30 inches.
I can't imagine why anyone would twist
the ground and power wires on any device
(other than the illumination lamp to a
whisky compass up on the windshield).
What's the product and what, if any, reason
is given in instructions for doing this
to the wires?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.com> |
Doesn't the remote panel switch for ELTs generally specify the use of
twisted-pair wiring? Seems like I recall seeing that when I was
considering replacing my ELT.
Jim Parker
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TWISTED PAIRS
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Wed, May 01, 2019 4:35 pm
At 10:43 AM 5/1/2019, you wrote:
Hi Guys (Bob)
When a twisted pair is required (eg: Power and ground to Radio), do you
take both back to the fuse panel, then lead off the ground wire to the
ground block ( which is a return route - L form) or lead off the ground
wire to the ground block en route (it's only half distance to the ground
block - ie: T form)
To clarify: the route to the ground block is 15 inches and to the Fuse
bus 30 inches.
I can't imagine why anyone would twist
the ground and power wires on any device
(other than the illumination lamp to a
whisky compass up on the windshield).
What's the product and what, if any, reason
is given in instructions for doing this
to the wires?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: TWISTED PAIRS |
My Artex did not
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
On Wed, May 1, 2019, 6:34 PM wrote:
>
> Doesn't the remote panel switch for ELTs generally specify the use of
> twisted-pair wiring? Seems like I recall seeing that when I was
> considering replacing my ELT.
>
>
> Jim Parker
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TWISTED PAIRS
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
> Date: Wed, May 01, 2019 4:35 pm
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
> At 10:43 AM 5/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Guys (Bob)
>
> When a twisted pair is required (eg: Power and ground to Radio), do you
> take both back to the fuse panel, then lead off the ground wire to the
> ground block ( which is a return route - L form) or lead off the ground
> wire to the ground block en route (it's only half distance to the ground
> block - ie: T form)
>
> To clarify: the route to the ground block is 15 inches and to the Fuse
> bus 30 inches.
> I can't imagine why anyone would twist
> the ground and power wires on any device
> (other than the illumination lamp to a
> whisky compass up on the windshield).
>
> What's the product and what, if any, reason
> is given in instructions for doing this
> to the wires?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TWISTED PAIRS |
| From: | "John M Tipton" <john(at)tiptonuk.eu> |
Hi Bob
Here is an example of twisted pairs (even twisted trio) you asked for my EZpilot
(A/p):
file:///C:/Users/John%20Tipton/Downloads/EZ%20Pilot%20Manual%20rev%202.5%20.pdf
I hope that works and it on page 36:
Regards
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489049#489049
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TWISTED PAIRS |
| From: | "John M Tipton" <john(at)tiptonuk.eu> |
Hi Bob
Try this:
https://www.trioavionics.com/EZ%20Pilot%20Manual%20rev%202.5%20.pdf
Page 36
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489050#489050
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TWISTED PAIRS |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
John,
The link that you posted points to a file on your hard drive.
Below is a link to the EZ Pilot Operation and Installation Manual on Trio Avionics
website:
https://www.trioavionics.com/EZ%20Pilot%20Manual%20rev%202.5%20.pdf
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489051#489051
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 06:18 PM 5/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>Doesn't the remote panel switch for ELTs generally specify the use of
>twisted-pair wiring? Seems like I recall seeing that when I was
>considering replacing my ELT.
Could be . . . and I too have suggested it for situations
where one is building a long run of 2 or more wires. I've
often used a drill motor to build an independent bundle
of wires, usually small (22 or 20AWG max) that all terminated
in the same place.
Twisting is, at best, a matter of craftsmanship/convenience.
A bundle of wires in a 'straight lay' is stiff while
a twisted array remains flexible while physically
constrained in a handy bundle. When building pendant
cables for ground test equipment, I often twist the
array of wires before pulling them through a 'snake
skin' . . . makes for a really compliant test tool.
Mitigation of magnetic/electro-static coupling by twisting
SEEMS like a good idea . . . except that those coupling
modes are exceedingly weak and practical ONLY when the
pair to be twisting is either a STRONG potential antagonist
or VULNERABLE victim.
The DC power leads are NOT potential antagonists
nor are they vulnerable.
The fact that either of these conditions
is a consideration for integrating a particular
electro-whizzy into your airplane is a CONFESSION
of poor attention to details . . . like Mil-Std-704,
DO-160, etc . . . or a lack of understanding.
It's like the ol' avionics master switch meme intended
to ward off evil, non-existent 'spikes' while cranking
an engine. Once planted, it will grow and thrive like
an intellectual fungus long after advances in understanding
and application of the SCIENCE has shown it to be floobydust.
The short answer is: when your electro-whizzy's installation
manual calls for twisting for 'noise' or avionics master switch
for 'spikes', a healthy dose of skepticism is called for.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TWISTED PAIRS |
At 04:07 AM 5/2/2019, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob
>
>Here is an example of twisted pairs (even twisted trio) you asked
>for my EZpilot (A/p):
>
>file:///C:/Users/John%20Tipton/Downloads/EZ%20Pilot%20Manual%20rev%202.5%20.pdf
>
>I hope that works and it on page 36:
The folks who wrote this did a better
than average job, but their lack of
experience in air-frame wiring is
obvious.
The narrative about wire sizes is
startling. 24AWG wire in an airframe
is more difficult to work with . . .
26AWG would NOT be recommended.
I would not suggest such a thing for
OBAM aircraft and would think LONG
and HARD before calling it out in
a TC aircraft.
Premier (B390) airframe wiring used
a lot of 24 . . . but this was a 'busy'
airplane with miles of wire in it.
Weight savings was significant. But
the people who had to work with it
on the line and in the field were
less than enthusiastic.
Our airplanes (with mere dozens of
feet of wire), hooking up with
smaller than 22AWG is of no practical
benefit.
The shielded trios use to wire the
servos is handy from a fabrication/
installation perspective. The
EMC considerations for using
a shielded trio may be (but
unlikely) valid. But using off-
the-spool, pre-twisted, pre-twisted,
shielded wire is very convenient.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: TWISTED PAIRS |
I like to twist power and ground for organizational reasons.=C2- It just
cleans up the installation.
kolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 10:43 AM 5/1/2019, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "John M Tipton"
Hi Guys (Bob)
When a twisted pair is required (eg: Power and ground to Radio), do youtake
both back to the fuse panel, then lead off the ground wire to theground bl
ock=C2- ( which is a return route - L form) or lead off theground wire to
the ground block en route (it's only half distance to theground block - ie
: T form)
To clarify: the route to the ground block is 15 inches and to the Fusebus 3
0 inches.
=C2- I can't imagine why anyone would twist
=C2- the ground and power wires on any device
=C2- (other than the illumination lamp to a
=C2- whisky compass up on the windshield).
=C2- What's the product and what, if any, reason
=C2- is given in instructions for doing this
=C2- to the wires?
=C2- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TWISTED PAIRS |
At 09:18 AM 5/2/2019, you wrote:
>I like to twist power and ground for organizational reasons. It
>just cleans up the installation.
Hear hear!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | skywagon185guy <skywagon185(at)gmail.com> |
Only an assumption, but, I would think that the ovm trip setting should be
lower than 16.2 vdc.
Maybe in the 15 volt range.
It would be great if someone with battery experience details would chime in
on how high the charge voltage rate can go before starting to "cook" our
aviation type batteries.
On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 5:00 AM bobnoffs wrote:
>
> hi all,
> the past 6 months i have spent time looking into ovm's. i have just
> completed installation and tested one from perihelion. as the ad says
> 'about the size of a domino'. it actuates a relay on the output of my
> alternator. instructions and schematics were excellent and eric [owner] was
> very helpful.
> very simple. at 16.2 volts this unit opens the circuit to the relay coil
> and lights up an led on the panel.
> bob noffs
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489034#489034
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | GRT EIS Issues When Transmitting |
Greeting,
I am posting for a friend who fly a Velocityand I will get him
to sign up for the Aeroelectric.
His Question:
I need help with further troubleshooting an anomaly. When I key the
radio, all EGT & CHT temps drop about 25 degrees and stay there until
the transmission is released at which time they return to normal. This
is repeatable with the engine running or not. The EIS has been replaced
with a brand new one. I have swapped radios on the antenna. Whichever
radio is using the stbd antenna causes the anomaly. I inspected the
antenna wire (RG-400) as much as possible without removing it. No wear
or nicks. System, both EIS and radios have been flawless since
installation in 2016. Have even installed a ferrite sleeve on the
cht/egt wire bundle. No change. Transmission and reception on the radio
is loud and clear.
I have a GRT EIS mounted [at the back of the copilot side of the
airplane] on the floor. The wires run through the [fiberglass conduit]
to the engine.
The closest the antenna gets to the EIS is about 18 inches.
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 01:32 PM 5/2/2019, you wrote:
>Only an assumption, but, I would think that the
>ovm trip setting should be lower than 16.2 vdc.
>Maybe in the 15 volt range.
>It would be great if someone with battery
>experience details would chime in on how high
>the charge voltage rate can go before starting
>to "cook"=C2 our aviation type=C2 batteries.
First of all, OV conditions are first of all rare.
Second, they almost never present a 'creeping rise' in
bus voltage. OV regulation failures tend to be
gross over excitation events that cause an
alternator to deliver a constant current
(slightly higher than its nameplate rating)
with no practical limit to the limit to
the alternator's UNLOADED output.
The key word is UNLOADED . . . there are
ship's accessories on line . . . then there's
a battery that will attempt to absorb what
energy is left over between alternator ratings
and ship's loads.
Hence, the voltage doesn't 'creep', rather
it will rise at some observable rate over
a period of seconds to perhaps a couple of
minutes. OV protection systems are generally
designed to trip for any ov condition that
exceeds 16.0 (32.0) volts for something
on the order of 500 milliseconds (The
DO-160 stand off value for 20.0/40.0v is
1.0 second).
In the exceedingly rare case that your
regulator decides to do the creepy thing,
it will no doubt be so slow that you'll
easily know that something is amiss from
observation of ship's various voltage
displays.
So, Eric's selected calibration point for
ov trip is consistent with legacy
design goals and very conservative in
light of DO-160 qualification protocols
along with alternator/battery performance under
demonstrated ov stress.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 5/2/2019 7:11 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 01:32 PM 5/2/2019, you wrote:
>> Only an assumption, but, I would think that the ovm trip setting
>> should be lower than 16.2 vdc.
>> Maybe in the 15 volt range.
>> It would be great if someone with battery experience details would
>> chime in on how high the charge voltage rate can go before starting
>> to "cook" our aviation type batteries.
>
> First of all, OV conditions are first of all rare.
> Second, they almost never present a 'creeping rise' in
> bus voltage. OV regulation failures tend to be
> gross over excitation events that cause an
> alternator to deliver a constant current
> (slightly higher than its nameplate rating)
> with no practical limit to the limit to
> the alternator's UNLOADED output.
>
> The key word is UNLOADED . . . there are
> ship's accessories on line . . . then there's
> a battery that will attempt to absorb what
> energy is left over between alternator ratings
> and ship's loads.
>
> Hence, the voltage doesn't 'creep', rather
> it will rise at some observable rate over
> a period of seconds to perhaps a couple of
> minutes. OV protection systems are generally
> designed to trip for any ov condition that
> exceeds 16.0 (32.0) volts for something
> on the order of 500 milliseconds */(The
> DO-160 stand off value for 20.0/40.0v is
> 1.0 second).
>
> /* In the exceedingly rare case that your
> regulator decides to do the creepy thing,
> it will no doubt be so slow that you'll
> easily know that something is amiss from
> observation of ship's various voltage
> displays.
>
> So, Eric's selected calibration point for
> ov trip is consistent with legacy
> design goals and very conservative in
> light of DO-160 qualification protocols
> along with alternator/battery performance under
> demonstrated ov stress.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
And, if you assume that with a 'modern' panel, the engine monitor will
have configurable voltage limits for its alarm circuitry, you can set
the hi V alarm point right at the battery's max allowable, get notified
if that happening, and avoid nuisance trips by the OVM.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: TWISTED PAIRS |
I didn't twist much of anything. I used red and black wire and laced the
bundles. It ended up looking nice and the lacing was peaceful, satisfying
work.
I did twist the wires for my OAT probe and that was just to make the pair
easier to handle since it runs the length of the fuselage.
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GRT EIS Issues When Transmitting |
| From: | "jjshultz" <jjshultz(at)cablemo.net> |
I had an identical issue with my GRT EIS and an older NARCO comm radio. I surmised
that the radio antenna cable was affecting the EIS EGT/CHT probe thermocouple
wires leading into the EIS. I installed about 8-10 ferrite beads over the
antenna cable and the EIS data wire bundle, and it helped reduce the effect.
However, the ultimate solution was to reroute the radio antenna wire completely
away from the EIS wires. This solved the problem completely.
Although it may not be convenient to separate the antenna cable and EIS wires,
I suggest that is the best approach here.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489081#489081
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | skywagon185guy <skywagon185(at)gmail.com> |
Very good point... "creep vs. nearly instantly"..!
As you figured out, I was thinking creep and that is not the real world
action..
Thanks for the details....
On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 5:16 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 01:32 PM 5/2/2019, you wrote:
>
> Only an assumption, but, I would think that the ovm trip setting should b
e
> lower than 16.2 vdc.
> Maybe in the 15 volt range.
> It would be great if someone with battery experience details would chime
> in on how high the charge voltage rate can go before starting to "cook"
=C3=82
> our aviation type=C3=82 batteries.
>
>
> First of all, OV conditions are first of all rare.
> Second, they almost never present a 'creeping rise' in
> bus voltage. OV regulation failures tend to be
> gross over excitation events that cause an
> alternator to deliver a constant current
> (slightly higher than its nameplate rating)
> with no practical limit to the limit to
> the alternator's UNLOADED output.
>
> The key word is UNLOADED . . . there are
> ship's accessories on line . . . then there's
> a battery that will attempt to absorb what
> energy is left over between alternator ratings
> and ship's loads.
>
> Hence, the voltage doesn't 'creep', rather
> it will rise at some observable rate over
> a period of seconds to perhaps a couple of
> minutes. OV protection systems are generally
> designed to trip for any ov condition that
> exceeds 16.0 (32.0) volts for something
> on the order of 500 milliseconds
>
>
> *(The DO-160 stand off value for 20.0/40.0v is 1.0 second). * In the
> exceedingly rare case that your
> regulator decides to do the creepy thing,
> it will no doubt be so slow that you'll
> easily know that something is amiss from
> observation of ship's various voltage
> displays.
>
> So, Eric's selected calibration point for
> ov trip is consistent with legacy
> design goals and very conservative in
> light of DO-160 qualification protocols
> along with alternator/battery performance under
> demonstrated ov stress.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IMPORTANCE OF ESSAY WRITING |
| From: | "meoos" <lolayewe(at)linx.email> |
I want to order thesis on https://paperleaf.ca/do-my-homework/ so the defence would
be assessed with highest mark. I know there is a lot of what they do, abstracts
and homeworks are among them for sure. There are very good reviews about
them. What can you say about this service? Should I trust them? This thesis
is really important for me, it`s just that I can`t screw this up.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489084#489084
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GRT EIS Issues When Transmitting |
Greeting,
I am posting for a friend who fly a Velocity?and I will get him to
sign up for the Aeroelectric.
His Question:
I need help with further troubleshooting an anomaly.
When I key the radio, all EGT & CHT temps drop about
25 degrees and stay there until the transmission is
released at which time they return to normal. This is
repeatable with the engine running or not. The EIS
has been replaced with a brand new one. I have swapped
radios on the antenna. Whichever radio is using
the stbd antenna causes the anomaly. I inspected
the antenna wire (RG-400) as much as possible without
removing it. No wear or nicks. System, both EIS and
radios have been flawless since installation in 2016.
ALL instrumentation-grade electro-whizzies
have SOME vulnerability to strong local
radio energy. When design goals target
installation in aircraft, the prudent
designer will consider building
a certain level of tolerance to radio
energy. If the device is destined to
fly in TC aircraft, then legacy qualification
testing will have been conducted to verify
the designer's successful achievement of
design goals.
I was unable to quickly locate any info
on GRT claims for environmental robustness
but they've been in the game for a long
time. It seems likely that their products
demonstrate adequate robustness to EM
radiation.
Further, the difficulty you're citing
is a new condition which suggests a
profound CHANGE in conditions between
the antagonist/propagation-path/victim
triad.
As a general rule, electro-whizzies once
demonstrated to meet design goals do
not suddenly go "weak" with respect
to electro-magnetic compatibility.
This is why the FIRST line of investigation
involves researching the propagation-path
which generally consists of things 'hung
out in the breeze' with respect to
potential for damage or failure. The
fact that one of two antennas is unique
to the symptoms strongly suggests some
CHANGE in the pathway between connector
at the radio and the antenna itself.
The first thing I do in these cases is
check antenna SWR (and compare with
other antenna). I think it likely that
you'll find the 'bad' antenna has a
much higher SWR. Damaged coax is the
LEAST likely cause. Disconnection of
either the center conductor or shield
at the connectors is most likely.
A very reasonable test tool for pursuing
this investigation is seen here:
https://tinyurl.com/y64t9nse
Emacs!
(caution, there are both VHF/UHF and
HF versions . . . get the VHF/UHF
device)
You'll probably also need a two-pak
of these adapters:
https://tinyurl.com/y66wn6ua
and a short BncM to BncM jumper cable
https://tinyurl.com/y3b7lvfp
Have even installed a ferrite sleeve on the cht/egt
wire bundle. No change. Transmission and reception
on the radio is loud and clear.
Ferrite sleeves are marginally effective
in meeting original design goals for
EMC . . . we used to see these included in
computer interconnect cables . . .
Emacs!
. . . but in the aviation world, they're
considered an un-acceptable 'band-aid'
to a problem that should be taken care
of INSIDE the electro-whizzies. I don't
even have such things in my inventory.
I have a GRT EIS mounted [at the back of the copilot
side of the airplane] on the floor. The wires run through the
[fiberglass conduit] to the engine.
The closest the antenna gets to the EIS is about 18 inches.
I presume your talking about the ANTENNA COAX
here . . . which should never be a factor
in preventing/fixing an EMC problem.
In the TC aircraft world, coax cables are
routinely routed in bundles with the most
vulnerable and antagonistic of wires
on the aircraft. The coax itself can
become problematic when it's improperly
terminated as discussed above.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GRT EIS Issues When Transmitting |
Bob,
As always I am grateful for your help.
I forwarded your response to my friend on the Velocity Owners Builders
Association forum and encouraged him to join the aeroelectric list. A
bunch of the VOBA guys are already here and I hope more will join up.
I will report back on what he discovered the problem was.
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
On Sat, May 4, 2019, 08:39 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> Greeting,
>
>
> I am posting for a friend who fly a Velocity?and I will get him to sign up
> for the Aeroelectric.
>
>
> His Question:
>
> I need help with further troubleshooting an anomaly.
> When I key the radio, all EGT & CHT temps drop about
> 25 degrees and stay there until the transmission is
> released at which time they return to normal. This is
> repeatable with the engine running or not. The EIS
> has been replaced with a brand new one. I have swapped
> radios on the antenna. Whichever radio is using
> the stbd antenna causes the anomaly. I inspected
> the antenna wire (RG-400) as much as possible without
> removing it. No wear or nicks. System, both EIS and
> radios have been flawless since installation in 2016.
>
> ALL instrumentation-grade electro-whizzies
> have SOME vulnerability to strong local
> radio energy. When design goals target
> installation in aircraft, the prudent
> designer will consider building
> a certain level of tolerance to radio
> energy. If the device is destined to
> fly in TC aircraft, then legacy qualification
> testing will have been conducted to verify
> the designer's successful achievement of
> design goals.
>
> I was unable to quickly locate any info
> on GRT claims for environmental robustness
> but they've been in the game for a long
> time. It seems likely that their products
> demonstrate adequate robustness to EM
> radiation.
>
> Further, the difficulty you're citing
> is a new condition which suggests a
> profound CHANGE in conditions between
> the antagonist/propagation-path/victim
> triad.
>
> As a general rule, electro-whizzies once
> demonstrated to meet design goals do
> not suddenly go "weak" with respect
> to electro-magnetic compatibility.
>
> This is why the FIRST line of investigation
> involves researching the propagation-path
> which generally consists of things 'hung
> out in the breeze' with respect to
> potential for damage or failure. The
> fact that one of two antennas is unique
> to the symptoms strongly suggests some
> CHANGE in the pathway between connector
March 22, 2019 - May 04, 2019
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-oy