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Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ik
October 04, 2009 - October 11, 2009

ht some material for wing spars and have been prepping to make the center s ection. Last year my father in law had a heart attack and through the trea tments for it=2C found out he had a rare form of cancer. He lived with us for 3 months because he needed contant care and his wife worked nights. I can't say enough about how my wife stepped up and took care of him. This i s what they mean in the bible when they say "Honor your father and mother". It's been a rough year or so with a roller coaster of emotions=2C hospita l and nursing home visits. He's currently recovering from hip surgery due to his hip deteriorating - due to the cancer. A couple months ago=2C I found out my wife was pregnant again - this was a huge surprise (blessing) since we were pretty much sure we didn't want anot her child at this point. Hmm=2C how'd that happen=3B). Three weeks ago=2C I was put on part time work - just escaping a round of layoffs. The econo my finally caught up to me. Then just two weeks ago=2C my mother found out she has pancreatic cancer. Statistics say she'll be dead within a year. Why am I saying all of this? Not to show anyone that my life is worse or b uisier than others. It's because of what I've been doing since I started b uilding my wing ribs a couple years ago. I asked family members and friend s to build one rib=2C sign and date it. Only a few of them did it=2C inclu ding my wife=2C my dad=2C mother and father in-law. So I built most of the m. But at that point=2C I wanted this airplane to mean something to others - not just me. I recently asked my father in law to think about the N-num ber and how he'd like to see it - someting that would mean something to him . He was a garbage man all his life and he loved it - so=2C someday=2C I'l l have something about that on the airplane - N-number or otherwise. I've recently asked my mom to help me build the center section to which she agre ed. It's my way of creating memories with these poeple - hopefully somethi ng they'll remember too. Anyway=2C my project is on the slow track for sure=2C but I'm ok with that. If it wasn't for all the other things in life=2C maybe it would be furthe r along but hey=2C life happens to all of us. Someday=2C I hope to finish this thing and fly it=2C commemorating all the people and efforts that have gone into it along the way. Until then=2C I'll just keep on building at s ome pace - slow at times=2C fast at times.. If you're project isn't progressing as fast as you want or maybe you've los t interest=2C do something to make it special - and take your time. It's n ot a race. Life happens. Sorry for the rant=2C just feelin nostalgic tonight I guess. Tom B. Brooklyn Park=2C MN creating memories with my mom - working on the center section ________________________________________________________________________________
From: stephen labash <slabash(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Vertical intercostals in ribs
Date: Oct 04, 2009
Pietenpol plans show no verical intercostals anterior and posterior to the two spars. Every other rib I have seen shows the anterior and posterior v ertical intercostals immediately adjacent to the spars. Your thoughts appr eciated. Steve =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <bike.mike(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: my project tribute (long)
Date: Oct 04, 2009
Tom, Thank you for putting so much into proper perspective. Hats off to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:18 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: my project tribute (long) Ok, this is not a question - more of a personal story I guess. [personal essay snipped for brevity] Sorry for the rant, just feelin nostalgic tonight I guess. Tom B. Brooklyn Park, MN creating memories with my mom - working on the center section [snip] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Riblett 612 Leading Edge
Date: Oct 04, 2009
Unless they've got a snorkel, mask and fins. Just to make this relevant--Got my tank halves resined together today. It weighs 13 lb with valve, fittings and fuel gauge. Clif > > That's never a good place for anyone > John > > No offense, but the best place for some people is floating face-down in a > lake. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2009
From: Dallas <paradox4u2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: one/three piece wing
Hey guys, Appreciate the response on the wing dilemma. Just to answer a few questions ; space is not a problem. I fortunately have an old WW II hanger for a work shop (in the back) so I've got plenty of room. I work nights at the airpor t-and I work on the Piet at night at work. Just a perk of-flying medeva c-at night with your base next to the hanger. So I guess I'm a night owl. It appears that most choose the three piece wing due to space issues but I didn't know if there were some other advantages besides the fact that you c an trailer it easier. I'm planning on the one piece wing unless someone can convince me otherwise. Of course, when I get to the spar scarf issues, I m ay change my mind. - Anyhoo, thanks for the input. Looking forward to the endeavor! - Dallas=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Poplar
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Someone stated recently that they read somewhere that the FAA stated that Y ellow Poplar was a direct replacement for Spruce. Darned if I could find i t in the archives. The only source I can find is AC 43.13 which states tha t it is not a direct replacement due to it's slightly lower strength and sh ock resistance. I know it's properties are similar=2C but If who ever said this could speak up and let me know the source I'd appreciate it. Good Do ug Fir is Impossible to get locally=2C but I found a source locally for for beautiful poplar (which isn't a poplar at all=2C it's a tulip tree. Go fig ure) I'd feel a lot more comfortable using it if I could find some support ing documentation. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Poplar
Doug Dever wrote: > Someone stated recently that they read somewhere that the FAA stated > that Yellow Poplar was a direct replacement for Spruce. Darned if I > could find it in the archives. The only source I can find is AC 43.13 > which states that it is not a direct replacement due to it's slightly > lower strength and shock resistance. I know it's properties are > similar, but If who ever said this could speak up and let me know the > source I'd appreciate it. Good Doug Fir is Impossible to get locally, > but I found a source locally for for beautiful poplar (which isn't a > poplar at all, it's a tulip tree. Go figure) I'd feel a lot more > comfortable using it if I could find some supporting documentation. Forest Products Laboratory ought to have the data. Their website has a search engine. I'd plug "yellow poplar" and "strength" into it and see what comes up. Owen ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Poplar
From: "vman1922" <kkamp72(at)comcast.net>
Date: Oct 05, 2009
I see that Piper listed it as a substitute for the Cub- among other woods. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266543#266543 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: my project tribute (long)
From: "vman1922" <kkamp72(at)comcast.net>
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Thanks for the post! My hat is also off. That a way to make positives out of troubles. May God Bless and ease your family's burdens. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266546#266546 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: my project tribute (long)
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Tom, Thank you for that post. Your perspective is the one we all should have. Providence has arranged for most of us?to be more fortunate, and I hope we can all stop today to reflect on that fact. The day I see your Piet fly will be very sweet indeed. Keep going. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. .? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Poplar
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Doug, Here's a page out of 43.13. It shows that Poplar is not a 'direct' replacement, but very close. My airframe is all Poplar, Hickory struts, fir spars. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:16 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Poplar Someone stated recently that they read somewhere that the FAA stated that Yellow Poplar was a direct replacement for Spruce. Darned if I could find it in the archives. The only source I can find is AC 43.13 which states that it is not a direct replacement due to it's slightly lower strength and shock resistance. I know it's properties are similar, but If who ever said this could speak up and let me know the source I'd appreciate it. Good Doug Fir is Impossible to get locally, but I found a source locally for for beautiful poplar (which isn't a poplar at all, it's a tulip tree. Go figure) I'd feel a lot more comfortable using it if I could find some supporting documentation. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio _____ Hotmail: PowerfuL/go/171222986/direct/01/' target='_new'>Get it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
As you mentioned, AC43.13 is pretty clear about Yellow Poplar: 'Excellent working qualities. *Should not be used as a direct substitute for spruce without carefully accounting for slightly reduced strength properties.* Somewhat low in shock-resisting capacity. Gluing satisfactory." The strength properties note that it's strength compared to spruce is: "Slightly less than spruce, except in compression (crushing) and shear." They mean that in compression and shear it is even weaker yet. You can also go to Chris Tracy's excellent site: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/construction.htm, and download ANC-18, where you can find tables with comparative strength data between different types of wood. Around pages 21/22 you can find the info for sitka spruce and yellow poplar; skim the whole document, I'm sure there's even more. That's just what a quick few minutes of looking turned up. Anywho, this chart shows that yellow poplar is indeed weaker than spruce in almost every category, in some characteristics more than others. Not tremendously weaker, but weaker nonetheless. Others are building with it.....maybe someone can speak to whether or not anyone has flown it (Gary could, if he'd hurry up with those ribs). I personally would want to 'carefully account' for any possible loss of strength before using it, but then I also wouldn't want to spend the time trying to 'carefully account' for it's slightly reduced strength properties. I'd rather just build. You only live about 500 miles from Wicks, and even if you bite the bullet and just build entirely with spruce it's still not going to be the largest expense in this whole process of building the airplane. Unless, that is, you come back in 6 mos to a year and ask if a 2.0L Dodge Neon engine with a chain redrive will be a suitable powerplant (cheaper than an A65), or whether we can find where someone said it's fine to use bedsheets to cover the airplane (the touch, the feel of cotton, the fabric of your Pietenpol?). Or if you coat the entire airframe in Raka epoxy filled with silica (just kidding). Then the spruce may have turned out to be your largest expense. Good luck in whatever you choose to build with! Now I'm late for work... :P Have a good morning all, Ryan On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 4:15 AM, Doug Dever wrote: > Someone stated recently that they read somewhere that the FAA stated that > Yellow Poplar was a direct replacement for Spruce. Darned if I could find > it in the archives. The only source I can find is AC 43.13 which states > that it is not a direct replacement due to it's slightly lower strength and > shock resistance. I know it's properties are similar, but If who ever said > this could speak up and let me know the source I'd appreciate it. Good Doug > Fir is Impossible to get locally, but I found a source locally for for > beautiful poplar (which isn't a poplar at all, it's a tulip tree. Go > figure) I'd feel a lot more comfortable using it if I could find some > supporting documentation. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TGSTONE236(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: shipping & handling charges
Are most of you keeping tabs on your shipping and handling charges? I must be ordering too much or too often. To date I have over $850.00 in charges and still don't how much more I'll spend. I can tell you now mine will not be the cheapest built Piet on the list. I have all the big ticket items,ceconite, paint, struts,forks, wings done(not covered), "C" section done (covered)with fuel tank, corvair engine on stand awaiting WW parts to finish, fuselage on straight axle with spoke wheels and PF Beck's copied brake system. It looks like the shipping and handling cost are going to run at least 10% of the building cost.Some of these cost are my on doings as I don't wait to let a large need list build up as I want to finish the project I am on at the time and not jump from project to project. Just curious as to how you handle your Piet building and parts buying. Ted Stone Corvair Piet Wilmington,NC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Skip Gadd" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: A 65 starter
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Has anyone seen or have an opinion on Bill Rewey's Sky-Tech/Lycoming ring gear starter. He has an ad for drawings and photos in the current BPA Newsletter. Skip ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: shipping & handling charges
I have chosen to buy a little at a time from where ever has the best prices .. Since my purchases have been mostly wood, I have bought local, bulk from Public Lumber and some from Aircraft Spruce. I buy ahead of time so that th e project moves and I am not waiting for wood.- It would be nice to get a complete wood list together and place one massive order with one shipping charge, but that just would not work because I buy from various sources and I use various woods, (birtch and Okume ply for example.) and I am not alwa ys sure where and what I will be using until I get to that part of the buil d. - So, I buy when I can with the money I have and go. I try not to get too ben t about paying multiple shipping charges for multiple shipments because tha t is the only way I can do it now.- Plus, the family does not feel neglec ted as we can still go to Cedar Point, out to eat, etc. along the way. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <catdesigns(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: shipping & handling charges
Date: Oct 05, 2009
I don't keep track of the cost of any of it. It's just to depressing but 10% doesn't sound too bad. On the bright side, usually on shipped orders they are from out of state so you don't have to pay sales tax. I, living in the great state of California and only 450 miles from Aircraft Spruce, get he honor of paying shipping and 7.75% sales tax. Oh the joy! Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: TGSTONE236(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: shipping & handling charges Are most of you keeping tabs on your shipping and handling charges? I must be ordering too much or too often. To date I have over $850.00 in charges and still don't how much more I'll spend. I can tell you now mine will not be the cheapest built Piet on the list. I have all the big ticket items,ceconite, paint, struts,forks, wings done(not covered), "C" section done (covered)with fuel tank, corvair engine on stand awaiting WW parts to finish, fuselage on straight axle with spoke wheels and PF Beck's copied brake system. It looks like the shipping and handling cost are going to run at least 10% of the building cost.Some of these cost are my on doings as I don't wait to let a large need list build up as I want to finish the project I am on at the time and not jump from project to project. Just curious as to how you handle your Piet building and parts buying. Ted Stone Corvair Piet Wilmington,NC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: shipping & handling charges
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Ted, I did not keep track of my shipping expenses on the engine parts, but the fuselage is pretty much put together, tail surfaces and center section. I have wing spars and enough wood to build all the ribs..and I'm sitting at about 7% for Shipping & Handling. Note that I bought almost all my wood locally. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TGSTONE236(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: shipping & handling charges Are most of you keeping tabs on your shipping and handling charges? I must be ordering too much or too often. To date I have over $850.00 in charges and still don't how much more I'll spend. I can tell you now mine will not be the cheapest built Piet on the list. I have all the big ticket items,ceconite, paint, struts,forks, wings done(not covered), "C" section done (covered)with fuel tank, corvair engine on stand awaiting WW parts to finish, fuselage on straight axle with spoke wheels and PF Beck's copied brake system. It looks like the shipping and handling cost are going to run at least 10% of the building cost.Some of these cost are my on doings as I don't wait to let a large need list build up as I want to finish the project I am on at the time and not jump from project to project. Just curious as to how you handle your Piet building and parts buying. Ted Stone Corvair Piet Wilmington,NC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant(at)msn.com>
Subject: Poplar
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Gary=2C I'm interested in your struts - do you have a photo? Are these the lift st ruts=2C cabanes=2C??? I plan on making mine of spruce with a ply core (lif t=2C cabanes=2C etc). Thanks=2C Tom B. From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar Date: Mon=2C 5 Oct 2009 05:13:36 -0700 Doug=2C Here=92s a page out of 43.13. It shows that Poplar is not a =91direct=92 replacement=2C but very close. My airfram e is all Poplar=2C Hickory struts=2C fir spars. Gary Boothe Cool=2C Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion=2C mounted Tail done=2C Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down=85) From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever Sent: Monday=2C October 05=2C 2009 2:16 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Poplar Someone stated recently that they read somewhere that the FAA stated that Yellow Poplar was a direct replacem ent for Spruce. Darned if I could find it in the archives. The only source I can find is AC 43.13 which states that it is not a direct replacem ent due to it's slightly lower strength and shock resistance. I know it's properties are similar=2C but If who ever said this could speak up and let me know the source I'd appreciate it. Good Doug Fir is Impossible to get locally=2C but I found a source locally for for beautiful poplar (which isn 't a poplar at all=2C it's a tulip tree. Go figure) I'd feel a lot more comfortable using it if I could find some supporting documentation. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio Hotmail: PowerfuL/go/171222986/direct/01/' target='_new'>Get it now. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 3-piece wing fairings
Date: Oct 05, 2009
All, I sent this out on Saturday, but got no feedback.it may have been lost in the flurry of weekend work/flying/other subjects. I am looking for a good way to attach the fairings between the wings and center section. Are Tinnermans the only best way to go? Gary Assuming that I do not want to attach my wing fairings with leather lacing like Larry Williams (a very nice touch), how are some of you attaching the aluminum fairing? The plans call for the 1/16" x 2" plywood, which will keep the fabric from sucking in the rib, and provide an attach for the fairing. But there must be a trick way of backing up the screws. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Poplar
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Tom, Here are a few pics. Mine are simply laminated Hickory with no other frills. I can take some other close-ups if you want. The lift struts will also be Hickory, but I won't make them until the wings are done and I can get some actual measurements for length. I like the attachments that Douwe shows in the attachment. I know others have used spruce and combination with core materials - you should be fine. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM MICHELLE BRANT Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:14 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar Gary, I'm interested in your struts - do you have a photo? Are these the lift struts, cabanes,??? I plan on making mine of spruce with a ply core (lift, cabanes, etc). Thanks, Tom B. _____ From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 05:13:36 -0700 Doug, Here's a page out of 43.13. It shows that Poplar is not a 'direct' replacement, but very close. My airframe is all Poplar, Hickory struts, fir spars. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:16 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Poplar Someone stated recently that they read somewhere that the FAA stated that Yellow Poplar was a direct replacement for Spruce. Darned if I could find it in the archives. The only source I can find is AC 43.13 which states that it is not a direct replacement due to it's slightly lower strength and shock resistance. I know it's properties are similar, but If who ever said this could speak up and let me know the source I'd appreciate it. Good Doug Fir is Impossible to get locally, but I found a source locally for for beautiful poplar (which isn't a poplar at all, it's a tulip tree. Go figure) I'd feel a lot more comfortable using it if I could find some supporting documentation. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio _____ Hotmail: PowerfuL/go/171222986/direct/01/' target='_new'>Get it now. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: throttle setup;
Jorge, You are welcome. Keep up the good work. Tim in central Texas -----Original Message----- From: jorge lizarraga Sent: Oct 4, 2009 4:26 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: throttle setup; tanks for the aidea help alot nex week work in there also stare instal in side all turn bucles soon I think$$$$$$$$$,cables nico pres timbles etc.an make weld stuf for horns and controler thinks tanks for you help, jorge from hanford --- On Sun, 10/4/09, Tim Willis wrote: From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: throttle setup Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 9:15 AM Jorge & Oscar, Corky's second project (now mine) is as Oscar described-- the two throttles are connected by small diameter steel push-pull tubes, with a Bowden cable from the front pit to the carb. The handles are on top. I plan for a left glove (leather, no lace, Michael Jackson) to keep 100 mph June bugs and chilling air off my knuckles. Usually chilling air is not a major factor in TX, or Oscar would have fixed that. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> >Sent: Oct 4, 2009 11:01 AM >To: Pietenpol List >Subject: Pietenpol-List: throttle setup > > >Jorge; I think the throttle that is shown in the >plans is about as simple as you can get. One thing >that would be an improvement is to link the front >and rear throttle levers with a rod or tube, then >carry a Bowden cable forward to the carb from the >front throttle. I've seen pictures of that setup >on more than one Piet but I don't remember whose >airplane had it. The last ones I saw were of a >really nice, clean, simple cockpit with beautifully >varnished plywood cockpit; I'm no wood expert but >it looked like birch ply (blonde color), dark hardwood >knobs on the throttles. > >41CC has the pilot's throttle up near the cockpit >coaming with the pivot at the bottom; upside-down >from what the plans show. I like that setup since >it gives more room down in the cockpit but when the >weather is cold, it puts your hand almost out in >the wind. I can post a photo of the throttle if you >are interested. And the front throttle is just a >knob attached to the inner wire of the Bowden cable >with bug nuts to secure it. > >PS: "Cold", as defined in Texas, is anything >below about 80F. > >Oscar Zuniga >Air Camper NX41CC >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target="_blank">http://www.mat/forums.matronics.com" bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Adontribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributionDate: Oct 05, 2009
From: Ross Alexander <karbath1(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: reinforced "end" ribs
an excellent on carb ice! A must read for everyone! Thanks for a great safety article for all. Ross in Orangeville, Canada __________________________________________________________________ Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: 5 minutes
Hi Oscar, Oscar Zuniga wrote: >> what can you hear that suggests that there's >> ice forming? > > [In the video, rolling to the centerline for takeoff, > pilot advances the throttle, engine hesitates, and > someone says] "carb heat!" I finally watched the video without the constant din of children in the background. I remember that, now. I was going through my checklist for take off and verbalized "carb heat, off" and Steve repeated it. Didn't think the camera would pick that up. I always close the carb heat before take-off - I never leave it on. Not sure what the hesitation was, though. This Marvell Schembler MA-3 has a fuel accelerator pump - as you apply the throttle, it pumps fuel into the carb to keep the engine from getting choked of fuel. It's pretty slick and I haven't experienced any engine pop or hesitations like I have with Stromberg equipped engines. Well, not yet... Cheers, Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Ross Alexander <karbath1(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: using brakes
I would not be without my brakes. I need to be in COMPLETE control at all t imes.=0ARoos in Orangeville, Canada=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________________ _______=0AFrom: "AMsafetyC(at)aol.com" <AMsafetyC(at)aol.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-lis t(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, October 1, 2009 3:49:49 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: using brakes=0A=0AThanks guys, all good information in the planning. =0A =0AWhy so much previous discussion about brakes, cart brakes , hubs, mechanical =0Avs juice, friction if the entire braking need is rele gated to taxi, =0Afueling and parking and on a limited basis. seems like a lot of unnecessary =0Awork for no benefit according too the comments of tod ay.=0A =0AThe good news is it takes another issue of concern off the table and allows =0Ame more concentration on the important issues like continued un interrupted =0Abuilding, saw dust, engine and firewall.=0A =0AThanks=0A =0AJohn=0A =0Asafe in the morning and so far, we shall see about the rest o f the =0Aday!=0A =0AIn a message dated 10/1/2009 3:38:32 P.M. Eastern Dayli ght Time, =0Amichael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov writes:=0ASame =0A> here as Jack. I only use my brakes when I=99m below 10 mph to =0A> facilitate slowi ng to make a u-turn on the runway or when coming up to the gas =0A> pump o r inching along for takeoff in line or lastly, on runup. =0A> =0A> =0A>I =0A> rarely ever touch my brakes on the runway, except to turn around. Ot hers =0A> flying Pietenpols, what about you? =0A>Jack =0A> Philllips=0A> =0A>I =0A> don=99t even use my brakes when doing a 180 turn or 360 turn to look around the =0A> pattern before takeoff=0A>for =0A> traffic =94the steerable tailwheel with full rudder bar deflection one way or the =0A> other works fine. =0A> =0A>Mike =0A> C. =0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>= ===========0A>t href="http://www.matronics.com/Naviga tor?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0A> ============0A>ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matro nics.com=0A>===================== ================0A>tp://www.matronics.com/con tribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>======= ===0A=0A=0A ______________________________________________________ ____________=0ABe smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving j and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Ross Alexander <karbath1(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: centersection flop
The pietenpolis one big air brake! Just chop the power and see how quick it comes down! Ross in Orangeville, canada=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________ _____________=0A=0A=0A _______________________________________________ ___________________=0AConnect with friends from any web browser - no downlo ad required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http:/ /ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Dave Aldrich <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: one/three piece wing
I plan on doing the same thing and am interested in the replies. My current plan is to laminate horizontal layers, with scarf joints overlapped in the center, reinforced with plywood. Center section will be 3 ft wide to accommodate a slightly larger gas tank. Dave Aldrich ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N." <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: one/three piece wing
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Dallas I have built both the one and three piece wings. Next time it will be a one piece. It is easy to transport on a roof rack on the pick up truck, takes less time to build and is easier to set up and balance. Just my opinion. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dallas To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:46 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: one/three piece wing Hey guys, Appreciate the response on the wing dilemma. Just to answer a few questions; space is not a problem. I fortunately have an old WW II hanger for a work shop (in the back) so I've got plenty of room. I work nights at the airport and I work on the Piet at night at work. Just a perk of flying medevac at night with your base next to the hanger. So I guess I'm a night owl. It appears that most choose the three piece wing due to space issues but I didn't know if there were some other advantages besides the fact that you can trailer it easier. I'm planning on the one piece wing unless someone can convince me otherwise. Of course, when I get to the spar scarf issues, I may change my mind. Anyhoo, thanks for the input. Looking forward to the endeavor! Dallas ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Push/pull linkage size/type
I am now thinking of using the "tubes" for the entire tail control linkage. - What would be an appropriate diameter/wall thickness/material tube to u se?- I would imagine I will take a weight penalty over cables and pulleys ....maybe?- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov
Subject: Watch A Night to Thank Harrison Ford
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar
From: Ameet Savant <ameetsavant(at)gmail.com>
Doug, I think you are referring to my post about Poplar. The source was the 1942 War Departments Aircraft Woodwork manual TM 1-414. It does mention no engineering changes are needed for substituting with Poplar. Generally, I believe, 43.13 should be considered to supersede TM 1-414. As an example, TM1-414 specifies 10:1 slope for spar scarf joints and we all know the current version of 43.13 specifies 15:1. Personally (this is just my personal opinion)- for the purposes of the Pietenpol, Poplar can be considered as a substitute for Spruce. Of course, you still have to apply proper selection and building techniques. As someone mentions the US forestry service has a lot of data on this that can be acquired by searching. Thanks Ameet Savant Omaha, NE On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 4:15 AM, Doug Dever wrote: > Someone stated recently that they read somewhere that the FAA stated that > Yellow Poplar was a direct replacement for Spruce. Darned if I could find > it in the archives. The only source I can find is AC 43.13 which states > that it is not a direct replacement due to it's slightly lower strength and > shock resistance. I know it's properties are similar, but If who ever said > this could speak up and let me know the source I'd appreciate it. Good Doug > Fir is Impossible to get locally, but I found a source locally for for > beautiful poplar (which isn't a poplar at all, it's a tulip tree. Go > figure) I'd feel a lot more comfortable using it if I could find some > supporting documentation. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Poplar
Ryan Mueller wrote: > As you mentioned, AC43.13 is pretty clear about Yellow Poplar: > > 'Excellent working qualities. *Should not be used as a direct > substitute for spruce without carefully accounting for slightly > reduced strength properties.* Somewhat low in shock-resisting > capacity. Gluing satisfactory." > > The strength properties note that it's strength compared to spruce is: > "Slightly less than spruce, except in compression (crushing) and > shear." They mean that in compression and shear it is even weaker yet. Not to make trouble, but on the other hand the Piet is massively overbuilt. I have heard of people reducing the cross section of the longerons and other structural members (other than the spar) and have never heard that they'd gotten into trouble by doing so. For this aircraft, poplar may well be a direct replacement for spruce. Not that I have done the arithmetic. That low shock resistance would worry me a little for the spar, though. Owen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Push/pull linkage size/type
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Michael, I don't have that info at my fingertips, but consider that you may want to thread the ends for the Aurora bearings. Pick an appropriate ID and wall thickness based on the bearings you choose. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 9:43 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Push/pull linkage size/type I am now thinking of using the "tubes" for the entire tail control linkage. What would be an appropriate diameter/wall thickness/material tube to use? I would imagine I will take a weight penalty over cables and pulleys...maybe? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 3-piece wing fairings
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Gary, What's the world coming to? Two whole days with no feedback... That aside, have you seen this method? http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName 070616_17 4 .JPG&PhotoID=3856 It doesn't have aluminum fairings, therefore no need to attach the fairings (because they aren't there). Of course, it means modifying the wing attachment fittings, since the connections have to be accessed from inside the centersection. Definitely more complicated, but nice and clean. And it's been done, so we know it's possible. But if you're going the traditional (plans) route, I'd just double up on the 1/16" plywood strips (add a second layer underneath) - that way you've got 1/8" of plywood to screw into, which should give you enough "bite" for the little wood screws that will hold the fairing strips in place. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings All, I sent this out on Saturday, but got no feedback...it may have been lost in the flurry of weekend work/flying/other subjects. I am looking for a good way to attach the fairings between the wings and center section. Are Tinnermans the only best way to go? Gary Assuming that I do not want to attach my wing fairings with leather lacing like Larry Williams (a very nice touch), how are some of you attaching the aluminum fairing? The plans call for the 1/16" x 2" plywood, which will keep the fabric from sucking in the rib, and provide an attach for the fairing. But there must be a trick way of backing up the screws. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down...) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar
From: Ameet Savant <ameetsavant(at)gmail.com>
That is a misinterpretation. Please refer to the attachment it clearly shows that Poplar is stronger in compression and shear than Spruce. On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > As you mentioned, AC43.13 is pretty clear about Yellow Poplar: > > 'Excellent working qualities. *Should not be used as a direct substitute > for spruce without carefully accounting for slightly reduced strength > properties.* Somewhat low in shock-resisting capacity. Gluing > satisfactory." > > The strength properties note that it's strength compared to spruce is: > "Slightly less than spruce, except in compression (crushing) and shear." > They mean that in compression and shear it is even weaker yet. > > > Ryan > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar
From: Ameet Savant <ameetsavant(at)gmail.com>
I think I typed this in a hurry- (needed to get back to work... still do!) Please see table 2 in the document I am referring attached to the previous email. Basically, Spruce is better in compression (maybe slightly) than Poplar. For all other properties in the table, Poplar wins out. Thanks Ameet On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Ameet Savant wrote: > That is a misinterpretation. Please refer to the attachment it clearly > shows that Poplar is stronger in compression and shear than Spruce. > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > >> As you mentioned, AC43.13 is pretty clear about Yellow Poplar: >> >> 'Excellent working qualities. *Should not be used as a direct substitute >> for spruce without carefully accounting for slightly reduced strength >> properties.* Somewhat low in shock-resisting capacity. Gluing >> satisfactory." >> >> The strength properties note that it's strength compared to spruce is: >> "Slightly less than spruce, except in compression (crushing) and shear." >> They mean that in compression and shear it is even weaker yet. >> >> >> Ryan >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 3-piece wing fairings
Date: Oct 05, 2009
I know, I know.that's what happens when I wake up early and drink too much coffee. I have seen the No-Fairing approach (on Greg & Dale's Piet) and actually prefer it. At the time of starting my center section I was in the Get Building and Quit Thinking About It mode. I went with the plans in hand and am no condemned to fairings. As always, I value your input. That may be the only viable choice, and certainly easy. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:47 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings Gary, What's the world coming to? Two whole days with no feedback... That aside, have you seen this method? http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName 070616_174.JPG <http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName 070616_174.JP G&PhotoID=3856> &PhotoID=3856 It doesn't have aluminum fairings, therefore no need to attach the fairings (because they aren't there). Of course, it means modifying the wing attachment fittings, since the connections have to be accessed from inside the centersection. Definitely more complicated, but nice and clean. And it's been done, so we know it's possible. But if you're going the traditional (plans) route, I'd just double up on the 1/16" plywood strips (add a second layer underneath) - that way you've got 1/8" of plywood to screw into, which should give you enough "bite" for the little wood screws that will hold the fairing strips in place. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings All, I sent this out on Saturday, but got no feedback.it may have been lost in the flurry of weekend work/flying/other subjects. I am looking for a good way to attach the fairings between the wings and center section. Are Tinnermans the only best way to go? Gary Assuming that I do not want to attach my wing fairings with leather lacing like Larry Williams (a very nice touch), how are some of you attaching the aluminum fairing? The plans call for the 1/16" x 2" plywood, which will keep the fabric from sucking in the rib, and provide an attach for the fairing. But there must be a trick way of backing up the screws. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Ameet, I was referencing the information found in ANC-18 'Design of Wood Aircraft Structures, pages 21 and 22, Table 2-6 'Strength values of various woods, based on 15 percent moisture content, to be used in design of aircraft for use in CONUS'. In this table, Poplar is weaker than Sitka Spruce in all but one instance (more in some ways than others), that of Tension - Strength Perpendicular to Grain..... Ryan On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 1:15 PM, Ameet Savant wrote: > I think I typed this in a hurry- (needed to get back to work... still do!) > Please see table 2 in the document I am referring attached to the previous > email. Basically, Spruce is better in compression (maybe slightly) than > Poplar. For all other properties in the table, Poplar wins out. > > Thanks > Ameet > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Ameet Savant wrote: > >> That is a misinterpretation. Please refer to the attachment it clearly >> shows that Poplar is stronger in compression and shear than Spruce. >> >> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote: >> >>> As you mentioned, AC43.13 is pretty clear about Yellow Poplar: >>> >>> 'Excellent working qualities. *Should not be used as a direct substitute >>> for spruce without carefully accounting for slightly reduced strength >>> properties.* Somewhat low in shock-resisting capacity. Gluing >>> satisfactory." >>> >>> The strength properties note that it's strength compared to spruce is: >>> "Slightly less than spruce, except in compression (crushing) and shear." >>> They mean that in compression and shear it is even weaker yet. >>> >>> >>> Ryan >>> >>> > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Poplar
Date: Oct 05, 2009
I have heard on "The Last Original" the spruce longerons are 7/16 spruce an d we all know that Mr Pietenpols last few aircraft were built with 3/4 lami nated spars. I'd have to do some math=2C but 1" poplar might be a direct r eplacement for 3/4 spruce. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Date: Mon=2C 5 Oct 2009 13:44:01 -0400 > From: owen5819(at)comcast.net > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar > > > Ryan Mueller wrote: > > As you mentioned=2C AC43.13 is pretty clear about Yellow Poplar: > > > > 'Excellent working qualities. *Should not be used as a direct > > substitute for spruce without carefully accounting for slightly > > reduced strength properties.* Somewhat low in shock-resisting > > capacity. Gluing satisfactory." > > > > The strength properties note that it's strength compared to spruce is: > > "Slightly less than spruce=2C except in compression (crushing) and > > shear." They mean that in compression and shear it is even weaker yet. > > Not to make trouble=2C but on the other hand the Piet is massively > overbuilt. I have heard of people reducing the cross section of the > longerons and other structural members (other than the spar) and have > never heard that they'd gotten into trouble by doing so. For this > aircraft=2C poplar may well be a direct replacement for spruce. Not that I > have done the arithmetic. That low shock resistance would worry me a > little for the spar=2C though. > > Owen > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Poplar
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Thanks Ameet you were the one and that was the publication mentioned. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio Date: Mon=2C 5 Oct 2009 12:39:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar From: ameetsavant(at)gmail.com Doug=2C I think you are referring to my post about Poplar. The source was the 1942 War Departments Aircraft Woodwork manual TM 1-414. It does mention no engin eering changes are needed for substituting with Poplar. Generally=2C I believe=2C 43.13 should be considered to supersede TM 1-414. As an example=2C TM1-414 specifies 10:1 slope for spar scarf joints and we all know the current version of 43.13 specifies 15:1. Personally (this is just my personal opinion)- for the purposes of the Piet enpol=2C Poplar can be considered as a substitute for Spruce. Of course=2C you still have to apply proper selection and building techniques. As someone mentions the US forestry service has a lot of data on this that can be acquired by searching. Thanks Ameet Savant Omaha=2C NE On Mon=2C Oct 5=2C 2009 at 4:15 AM=2C Doug Dever wrote: Someone stated recently that they read somewhere that the FAA stated that Y ellow Poplar was a direct replacement for Spruce. Darned if I could find i t in the archives. The only source I can find is AC 43.13 which states tha t it is not a direct replacement due to it's slightly lower strength and sh ock resistance. I know it's properties are similar=2C but If who ever said this could speak up and let me know the source I'd appreciate it. Good Do ug Fir is Impossible to get locally=2C but I found a source locally for for beautiful poplar (which isn't a poplar at all=2C it's a tulip tree. Go fig ure) I'd feel a lot more comfortable using it if I could find some support ing documentation. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: CABLE TENSION?
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Oct 05, 2009
I am in the process of tensioning my wing drag wires and i would like to tension them using a tensioner instead of a "tone" i searched the archives and found a tensioner you can make from macs machine. Does anyone know the proper tension in pounds for these cables? 10-20-30-40?? I used 1/8" 7x19 stainless cable. Any help would be appreciated. It seems you could keep tightening them until something breaks. Thanks Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266654#266654 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Piets near Livermore CA?
I'm in Livermore this week....any Piets in the area? I was hoping to get up to see the gang in the Sacramento area but may not have time for that....actually working a couple blocks from the Livermore Municipal Airport...looks like a few interesting airplanes there. Anyway, anyone in the area? Jim Markle.... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Poplar
Date: Oct 05, 2009
That was what I remembered reading. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio Date: Mon=2C 5 Oct 2009 13:07:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar From: ameetsavant(at)gmail.com That is a misinterpretation. Please refer to the attachment it clearly show s that Poplar is stronger in compression and shear than Spruce. On Mon=2C Oct 5=2C 2009 at 7:33 AM=2C Ryan Mueller w rote: As you mentioned=2C AC43.13 is pretty clear about Yellow Poplar: 'Excellent working qualities. Should not be used as a direct substitute for spruce without carefully accounting for slightly reduced strength properti es. Somewhat low in shock-resisting capacity. Gluing satisfactory." The strength properties note that it's strength compared to spruce is: "Sli ghtly less than spruce=2C except in compression (crushing) and shear." They mean that in compression and shear it is even weaker yet. Ryan =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 3-piece wing fairings
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Kerri Anne Price has engineering drawings available for the "no gap method. The fittings are basically the same below the wing=2C just repositioned. I'm considering ordering them. But=2C I hesitate to deviate much from the plans. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings Date: Mon=2C 5 Oct 2009 13:46:30 -0400 From: eng(at)canadianrogers.com Gary=2C What's the world coming to? Two whole days with no feedback... That aside=2C have you seen this method? http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName 070616_174. JPG&PhotoID=3856 It doesn't have aluminum fairings=2C therefore no need to attach the fairin gs (because they aren't there). Of course=2C it means modifying the wing at tachment fittings=2C since the connections have to be accessed from inside the centersection. Definitely more complicated=2C but nice and clean. And i t's been done=2C so we know it's possible. But if you're going the traditional (plans) route=2C I'd just double up on the 1/16" plywood strips (add a second layer underneath) - that way you've got 1/8" of plywood to screw into=2C which should give you enough "bite" fo r the little wood screws that will hold the fairing strips in place. Bill C. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday=2C October 05=2C 2009 10:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings All=2C I sent this out on Saturday=2C but got no feedback=85it may have been lost in the flurry of weekend work/flying/other subjects. I am looking for a goo d way to attach the fairings between the wings and center section. Are Tinn ermans the only best way to go? Gary Assuming that I do not want to attach my wing fairings with leather lacing like Larry Williams (a very nice touch)=2C how are some of you attaching th e aluminum fairing? The plans call for the 1/16=94 x 2=94 plywood=2C which will keep the fabric from sucking in the rib=2C and provide an attach for t he fairing. But there must be a trick way of backing up the screws. Gary Boothe Cool=2C Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion=2C mounted Tail done=2C Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down=85) =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Push/pull linkage size/type
Thanks Gary. I saw the bearings in the pictures on a website and was trying to figure out the OD you used. Looks to be about 3/8" or so. --- On Mon, 10/5/09, Gary Boothe wrote: From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Push/pull linkage size/type Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 1:57 PM Michael, =C2- I don=99t have that info at my fingertips, but consider that you may want to thread the ends for the Aurora bearings. Pick an appropriate ID and wall thickness based on the bearings you choose. =C2- Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done,=C2-Fuselage=C2-on gear (15 ribs down) From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 9:43 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Push/pull linkage size/type =C2- I am now thinking of using the "tubes" for the entire tail control linkage. =C2- What would be an appropriate diameter/wall thickness/material tube t o use?=C2- I would imagine I will take a weight penalty over cables and p ulleys...maybe?=C2- =C2- =C2-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piet enpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Piets near my travels
I will be arriving Portland Oregon Monday 10/12 leaving 10/14 evening for Sacramento Ca for one 2 nights traveling by car to and from Stockton Ca then out on Friday morning Sacramento to Baltimore. I would enjoy visiting Piets in process building and or flying Piets for meet greet photos and brew, if anyone is interested please advise. Thanks John Junior Ambassador and Special Assistant to Ambassador and Secretary of Piet, Jim Markle In a message dated 10/5/2009 3:44:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jim_markle(at)mindspring.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Markle I'm in Livermore this week....any Piets in the area? I was hoping to get up to see the gang in the Sacramento area but may not have time for that....actually working a couple blocks from the Livermore Municipal Airport...looks like a few interesting airplanes there. Anyway, anyone in the area? Jim Markle.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 3-piece wing fairings
Doug Dever wrote: > Kerri Anne Price has engineering drawings available for the "no gap > method. The fittings are basically the same below the wing, just > repositioned. I'm considering ordering them. But, I hesitate to > deviate much from the plans. For whatever it is worth, I saw Keri Anne's Piet something like 20 years ago and considered it close to a masterpiece. I probably would not use the passenger door, just because it adds weight, but everything else looked great. The friend I was with at the time agreed, and his opinion is worth a more than mine--mechanical engineer, ex-crop duster and military back-seater, EAA Tech Councilor, built one plane and had rebuilt around a dozen at that point. If Keri Anne's plane has not executed an Icarus landing yet, there should not be much to worry about. Owen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Piets near Livermore CA?
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Jim, So close, but so far! I'm stuck in Sacramento all week... About an hour south of Livermore is Charlie Miller's very excellent Piet. Charlie is a great guy, and for a case of wine you could probably talk him into opening his hanger with the Piet and a nice Stinson 108! I think Charlie monitors this list, but here's his email: Charles.Miller(at)palm.com. He lives in Morgan Hill and flies out of Frazier Lake Airpark (1C9). BTW - I'm kidding about the wine... Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 12:27 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piets near Livermore CA? I'm in Livermore this week....any Piets in the area? I was hoping to get up to see the gang in the Sacramento area but may not have time for that....actually working a couple blocks from the Livermore Municipal Airport...looks like a few interesting airplanes there. Anyway, anyone in the area? Jim Markle.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Good stuff....
http://www.airventure.org/news/2009/090728_cup_racer.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 3-piece wing fairings
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
>From the photos I've seen of NX311GP, the workmanship appeared to be outstanding. Looked pretty cool. I seem to recall reading that it was quite heavy, but I can't find anything to back that up, so that might be untrue. Sounds like it did have a mishap on landing, and flipped over. And then it was put up for sale. http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Keri-Anns_Pietenpol_pics_1.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Owen Davies Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 4:27 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings Doug Dever wrote: > Kerri Anne Price has engineering drawings available for the "no gap > method. The fittings are basically the same below the wing, just > repositioned. I'm considering ordering them. But, I hesitate to > deviate much from the plans. For whatever it is worth, I saw Keri Anne's Piet something like 20 years ago and considered it close to a masterpiece. I probably would not use the passenger door, just because it adds weight, but everything else looked great. The friend I was with at the time agreed, and his opinion is worth a more than mine--mechanical engineer, ex-crop duster and military back-seater, EAA Tech Councilor, built one plane and had rebuilt around a dozen at that point. If Keri Anne's plane has not executed an Icarus landing yet, there should not be much to worry about. Owen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Piets near my travels
Thanks I would have enjoyed it too, no everyone can build in Poplar! Maybe next time? John In a message dated 10/5/2009 5:14:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gboothe5(at)comcast.net writes: John, Too bad! I live 1 hour east of Sacramento, but am condemned to stay in town all week, entertaining business Mucky-muks! I would have enjoyed mee ting you! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down) Do not archive ____________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC @aol.com Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:12 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piets near my travels I will be arriving Portland Oregon Monday 10/12 leaving 10/14 evening for Sacramento Ca for one 2 nights traveling by car to and from Stockton Ca then out on Friday morning Sacramento to Baltimore. I would enjoy visiting Piets in process building and or flying Piets for meet greet photos and brew, if anyone is interested please advise. Thanks John Junior Ambassador and Special Assistant to Ambassador and Secretary of Piet, Jim Markle In a message dated 10/5/2009 3:44:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jim_markle(at)mindspring.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Markle I'm in Livermore this week....any Piets in the area? I was hoping to get up to see the gang in the Sacramento area but may not have time for that....actually working a couple blocks from the Livermore Municipal Airport...looks like a few interesting airplanes there. Anyway, anyone in the area? Jim Use the ties Day ================= ====== - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ====================== = - List Contribution Web Site sp; http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) ======================== ============ ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ======================== ============ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Poplar
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Doug, I assume that was a typo. The longerons were definitely not 7/16". I believe Dan Helsper posted to the list that he had measured the longerons of "the Last Original", and found them to be 7/8" wide x 1" high Spruce. Laminated Spruce spars are nothing new, and, if built properly, are as strong as, if not stronger than a solid spar of Spruce. Well, actually, they ARE solid spars of Spruce (held together with glue). The two advantages of a laminated spar are: 1. Using smaller sections of wood allows for better inspection of the quality of the wood (harder to have hidden flaws in a small section). 2. It is possible to cut away sections with questionable quality (knots, etc) without rejecting the whole piece of wood. Therefore, from two "spars" that have small defects that might otherwise render them both unsuitable for use as spars can have the questionable areas cut away, and the good parts put together to make one good spar. One big disadvantage of laminated spars is all the extra labor required to build them. Another concern is the reliance on the numerous glue joints (obviously extra vigilance required when laying up the glue joints for a spar). Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar I have heard on "The Last Original" the spruce longerons are 7/16 spruce and we all know that Mr Pietenpols last few aircraft were built with 3/4 laminated spars. I'd have to do some math, but 1" poplar might be a direct replacement for 3/4 spruce. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: shipping & handling charges
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Seeing as most of the parts are imported from the US, I don't even want to think about how much the shipping was!!! Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Tuesday, 6 October 2009 1:03 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: shipping & handling charges Ted, I did not keep track of my shipping expenses on the engine parts, but the fuselage is pretty much put together, tail surfaces and center section. I have wing spars and enough wood to build all the ribs..and I'm sitting at about 7% for Shipping & Handling. Note that I bought almost all my wood locally. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TGSTONE236(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: shipping & handling charges Are most of you keeping tabs on your shipping and handling charges? I must be ordering too much or too often. To date I have over $850.00 in charges and still don't how much more I'll spend. I can tell you now mine will not be the cheapest built Piet on the list. I have all the big ticket items,ceconite, paint, struts,forks, wings done(not covered), "C" section done (covered)with fuel tank, corvair engine on stand awaiting WW parts to finish, fuselage on straight axle with spoke wheels and PF Beck's copied brake system. It looks like the shipping and handling cost are going to run at least 10% of the building cost.Some of these cost are my on doings as I don't wait to let a large need list build up as I want to finish the project I am on at the time and not jump from project to project. Just curious as to how you handle your Piet building and parts buying. Ted Stone Corvair Piet Wilmington,NC http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Poplar
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Should have been 15/16=2C but I stand corrected at 7/8. Anyway my point wa s they were less than 1". Doing some SWAG engineering off the top of my he ad I would say that poplar would be OK. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar Date: Mon=2C 5 Oct 2009 17:50:13 -0400 From: eng(at)canadianrogers.com Doug=2C I assume that was a typo. The longerons were definitely not 7/16". I believe Dan Helsper posted to the list that he had measured the longerons of "the Last Original"=2C and found them to be 7/8" wide x 1" high Spruce. Laminated Spruce spars are nothing new=2C and=2C if built properly=2C are a s strong as=2C if not stronger than a solid spar of Spruce. Well=2C actuall y=2C they ARE solid spars of Spruce (held together with glue). The two advantages of a laminated spar are: 1. Using smaller sections of wood allows for better inspection of the qu ality of the wood (harder to have hidden flaws in a small section). 2. It is possible to cut away sections with questionable quality (knots =2C etc) without rejecting the whole piece of wood. Therefore=2C from two " spars" that have small defects that might otherwise render them both unsuit able for use as spars can have the questionable areas cut away=2C and the g ood parts put together to make one good spar. One big disadvantage of laminated spars is all the extra labor required to build them. Another concern is the reliance on the numerous glue joints (obviously extr a vigilance required when laying up the glue joints for a spar). Bill C. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever Sent: Monday=2C October 05=2C 2009 3:13 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar I have heard on "The Last Original" the spruce longerons are 7/16 spruce an d we all know that Mr Pietenpols last few aircraft were built with 3/4 lami nated spars. I'd have to do some math=2C but 1" poplar might be a direct r eplacement for 3/4 spruce. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Plywood web spar
From: John Fay <jfay1950(at)gmail.com>
On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Owen Davies wrote: > > Among other comments, Robert Ray wrote: > >> ... for my project I will however use Baltic >> birch that's ripped diagonally across the board putting all the grains >> as the truss of a bridge and use Douglas fir to cap strip both >> sides in an I beam fashion, the web will be 1/4'' Baltic birch, ... >> > > That should work wonderfully, right up until the plywood delaminates. > Baltic birch ply is high quality stuff, but nearly everything you'll find in > the U.S. is interior grade and much less water resistant than aircraft or > marine ply. > __________________________________________________________________________ > Owen, My partner and I are using Baltic birch for the 1/8" gussets on the fuselage and empennage. Our supplier checked and said it was made with an exterior glue. I do not recall the name of the glue but have it recorded somewhere in my records. I have bought two different batches, and tested each by soaking. After 5 or 6 weeks of soaking, no delamination occurred. I could not get any of it to separate. We are using the European GL 2 (?) 5 ply, 1/8" equivalent for the fuselage side ply. Both resisted any delamination from soaking, but when boiled, the GL 2 remained solid, but the Baltic birch came apart quickly in boiling water. I know that T-88 will also come apart when heated, so I figured that since I was using T-88 for the glue joints, a similar type of glue in the plywood would not be a problem. John Fay in Peoria ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Ross Alexander <karbath1(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams...
Can you describe this a little further? How did you attach the cannister to the mike?=0A=0ARoss in Orangeville, Ontario, Canada 85 hp Piet=0A=0A=0A_ _______________________________=0AFrom: Gene & Tammy <zharvey@bentoncountyc able.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, October 4, 200 9 7:29:10 PM=0ASubject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gu lfstreams...=0A=0A =0ASpeaking of radios.....A while back, when I was =0Aha ving problems being understood on the radio because of all the wind noise, =0Asomeone on this list suggested I put a 35mm film canister, with a small hole, =0Aover the mike. I'm here to tell you it works great! Thanks to wh =================0A=0A=0A ____________ ______________________________________________________=0AMake your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer=AE 8. Optimized f or Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexp lorer/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Javier Cruz" <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: Re: translating Jorge's post- #1
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Hi dear Piets, well, after to let the piet for almost two years now i have time for work on it, i will clean all (to many dust) ,finish the fuel tank and install it... Jorge Donde estas ubicado? yo estoy en la Ciudad de Mexico, tengo ya algunos aos trabajando en mi Pietenpol... Saludos Javier Cruz pd. good translation Oscar ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: translating Jorge's post- #1
Welcome back Javier! By the way, I'm almost out of the supplies you left when you came for a visit...please bring more asap!!! :-) Good to see you back. I've been doing some "cleaning" and "dusting" lately myself! jm -----Original Message----- >From: Javier Cruz <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx> >Sent: Oct 5, 2009 8:49 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: translating Jorge's post- #1 > > >Hi dear Piets, well, after to let the piet for almost two years now i have >time for work on it, i will clean all (to many dust) ,finish the fuel tank >and install it... > > Jorge >Donde estas ubicado? yo estoy en la Ciudad de Mexico, tengo ya algunos aos >trabajando en mi Pietenpol... > >Saludos >Javier Cruz > >pd. good translation Oscar > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N." <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Chris Tension by ear is much more accurate than any gauge. Tighten slowly and evenly until you hear a "FWANG" Don't keep tightening till you start hearing any kind of tone like a PING. It's really pretty easy. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net> Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: CABLE TENSION? > > I am in the process of tensioning my wing drag wires and i would like to > tension them using a tensioner instead of a "tone" i searched the archives > and found a tensioner you can make from macs machine. Does anyone know the > proper tension in pounds for these cables? 10-20-30-40?? I used 1/8" 7x19 > stainless cable. Any help would be appreciated. It seems you could keep > tightening them until something breaks. Thanks > > Chris > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266654#266654 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: Good stuff....
Jim, You know that's my plane now, right? In the BPA newsletter, Doc suggested that it should be called the Tortoise. Maybe I should name 'er Yertle the Turtle or Churchy LaFemme. ;-) Cheers, Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
Chris, I seem to recall reading something like 140 lbs... search the archives for the term 'tensiometer' in the subject line. Cheers, Dan TOPGUN wrote: > > I am in the process of tensioning my wing drag wires and i would like to tension them using a tensioner instead of a "tone" i searched the archives and found a tensioner you can make from macs machine. Does anyone know the proper tension in pounds for these cables? 10-20-30-40?? I used 1/8" 7x19 stainless cable. Any help would be appreciated. It seems you could keep tightening them until something breaks. Thanks > > Chris > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266654#266654 > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Javier Cruz" <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: Re: translating Jorge's post- #1
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Great to read you again Jim... how are you..? and off course Jim ... just waiting for a trip to Oklahoma ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov
Subject: Watch Drilling Holes in Plexiglas
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Good stuff....
Date: Oct 05, 2009
I vote for Churchy LaFemme, but then I was always a big Pogo fan. Jack Phillips NX899JP Icarus Plummet (named by Churchy LeFemme) Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Yocum Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 9:26 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Good stuff.... Jim, You know that's my plane now, right? In the BPA newsletter, Doc suggested that it should be called the Tortoise. Maybe I should name 'er Yertle the Turtle or Churchy LaFemme. ;-) Cheers, Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar
From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com>
It's strength is the same it's shock resistance difference is so small that it shouldn't be a problem, there's a test chart on the freight harbor's catalog where they drop a hammer weight and shock test different woods, I don't remember the exact numbers I don't have it here with me but the difference is like the Spruce fails when hammer is dropped from 41 inches and the poplar fails at 40 inches. Another advantage that is only slight is poplar is slightly more perishable. There is also an independent test where a person test both woods along with pine hemlock etc and he test conclude the poplar is stronger than spruce, you'll have to search and find it but the web site is out there, I also don't think that the nail holding ability of poplar isn't quite as good. I have seen older houses that were built out of poplar still standing and the newer ones blown away after a tornado come through. Of course the older house was boxed in with diagonal boards of poplar. Where as the new ones had particule board. Russell On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Doug Dever wrote: > Should have been 15/16, but I stand corrected at 7/8. Anyway my point was > they were less than 1". Doing some SWAG engineering off the top of my > head I would say that poplar would be OK. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > ------------------------------ > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 17:50:13 -0400 > From: eng(at)canadianrogers.com > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Doug, > > I assume that was a typo. The longerons were definitely not 7/16". > I believe Dan Helsper posted to the list that he had measured the longerons > of "the Last Original", and found them to be 7/8" wide x 1" high Spruce. > > Laminated Spruce spars are nothing new, and, if built properly, are as > strong as, if not stronger than a solid spar of Spruce. Well, actually, > they ARE solid spars of Spruce (held together with glue). > The two advantages of a laminated spar are: > 1. Using smaller sections of wood allows for better inspection of the > quality of the wood (harder to have hidden flaws in a small section). > 2. It is possible to cut away sections with questionable quality (knots, > etc) without rejecting the whole piece of wood. Therefore, from two "spars" > that have small defects that might otherwise render them both unsuitable for > use as spars can have the questionable areas cut away, and the good parts > put together to make one good spar. > > One big disadvantage of laminated spars is all the extra labor required > to build them. > Another concern is the reliance on the numerous glue joints (obviously > extra vigilance required when laying up the glue joints for a spar). > > Bill C. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Doug Dever > *Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2009 3:13 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar > > I have heard on "The Last Original" the spruce longerons are 7/16 spruce > and we all know that Mr Pietenpols last few aircraft were built with 3/4 > laminated spars. I'd have to do some math, but 1" poplar might be a direct > replacement for 3/4 spruce. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > * > > st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listronics.comww.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > ------------------------------ > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Ge85/direct/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now. > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar
From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com>
Tulip tree, tulip poplar and yellow poplar are all the same tree. On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Robert Ray wrote: > It's strength is the same it's shock resistance difference is so small > that it shouldn't be a problem, there's a test chart on the freight > harbor's > catalog where they drop a hammer weight and shock test different > woods, I don't remember the exact numbers I don't have it here with > me but the difference is like the Spruce fails when hammer is dropped > from 41 inches and the poplar fails at 40 inches. > Another advantage that is only slight is poplar is slightly > more perishable. > There is also an independent test where a person test both woods > along with pine hemlock etc and he test conclude the poplar is stronger > than spruce, you'll have to search and find it but the web site is out > there, > I also don't think that the nail holding ability of poplar isn't quite as > good. > I have seen older houses that were built out of poplar still standing > and the newer ones blown away after a tornado come through. > Of course the older house was boxed in with diagonal boards of poplar. > Where as the new ones had particule board. > > > Russell > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Doug Dever wrote: > >> Should have been 15/16, but I stand corrected at 7/8. Anyway my point was >> they were less than 1". Doing some SWAG engineering off the top of my >> head I would say that poplar would be OK. >> >> Doug Dever >> In beautiful Stow Ohio >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar >> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 17:50:13 -0400 >> From: eng(at)canadianrogers.com >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> >> Doug, >> >> I assume that was a typo. The longerons were definitely not 7/16". >> I believe Dan Helsper posted to the list that he had measured the >> longerons of "the Last Original", and found them to be 7/8" wide x 1" high >> Spruce. >> >> Laminated Spruce spars are nothing new, and, if built properly, are as >> strong as, if not stronger than a solid spar of Spruce. Well, actually, >> they ARE solid spars of Spruce (held together with glue). >> The two advantages of a laminated spar are: >> 1. Using smaller sections of wood allows for better inspection of the >> quality of the wood (harder to have hidden flaws in a small section). >> 2. It is possible to cut away sections with questionable quality >> (knots, etc) without rejecting the whole piece of wood. Therefore, from two >> "spars" that have small defects that might otherwise render them both >> unsuitable for use as spars can have the questionable areas cut away, and >> the good parts put together to make one good spar. >> >> One big disadvantage of laminated spars is all the extra labor required >> to build them. >> Another concern is the reliance on the numerous glue joints (obviously >> extra vigilance required when laying up the glue joints for a spar). >> >> Bill C. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: >> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Doug Dever >> *Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2009 3:13 PM >> *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar >> >> I have heard on "The Last Original" the spruce longerons are 7/16 spruce >> and we all know that Mr Pietenpols last few aircraft were built with 3/4 >> laminated spars. I'd have to do some math, but 1" poplar might be a direct >> replacement for 3/4 spruce. >> >> Doug Dever >> In beautiful Stow Ohio >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listronics.comww.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Ge85/direct/01/' target='_new'>Sign up >> now. >> >> * >> >> * >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: 3-piece wing fairings
Date: Oct 05, 2009
What I have done is divide the distance between panels and extend the ply covering to that point. I will do the same with the wing panels. There will be a small gap, maybe 1/8" that I will fill with a rubber T section. Look above the wing attach fitting and you will see the extension. the T section is kinda like the depiction below. Stuffed into the gap the wedgies hold it in place and the "D" covers the gap. <-<-D Clif Kerri Anne Price has engineering drawings available for the "no gap method. The fittings are basically the same below the wing, just repositioned. I'm considering ordering them. But, I hesitate to deviate much from the plans. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:46:30 -0400 From: eng(at)canadianrogers.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Gary, What's the world coming to? Two whole days with no feedback... That aside, have you seen this method? http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName 070616_17 4.JPG&PhotoID=3856 It doesn't have aluminum fairings, therefore no need to attach the fairings (because they aren't there). Of course, it means modifying the wing attachment fittings, since the connections have to be accessed from inside the centersection. Definitely more complicated, but nice and clean. And it's been done, so we know it's possible. But if you're going the traditional (plans) route, I'd just double up on the 1/16" plywood strips (add a second layer underneath) - that way you've got 1/8" of plywood to screw into, which should give you enough "bite" for the little wood screws that will hold the fairing strips in place. Bill C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:24 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings All, I sent this out on Saturday, but got no feedback=85it may have been lost in the flurry of weekend work/flying/other subjects. I am looking for a good way to attach the fairings between the wings and center section. Are Tinnermans the only best way to go? Gary Assuming that I do not want to attach my wing fairings with leather lacing like Larry Williams (a very nice touch), how are some of you attaching the aluminum fairing? The plans call for the 1/16=94 x 2=94 plywood, which will keep the fabric from sucking in the rib, and provide an attach for the fairing. But there must be a trick way of backing up the screws. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down=85) st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Ge85/direct/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 10/05/09 18:23:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Subject: Don Emch-- brilliant---- throttle setup
I did mine like the plans show. It seems to be at about the right height for me to use my thigh as an arm rest. The rod is just a 1/4" steel rod that is threaded at each end with a 1/4-28 die. There is no lever in the front cockpit, it just connects to a Bowden cable. When a front passenger is flying they just grab onto the rod and control the throttle that way. I was concerned about having a lever up there that could get caught on a passenger's clothing, jacket or arm and could limit my use of it. It could happen and they might not even know they are hung up on it. I'm very leary of having stuff up front that can be disturbed by unknowing passengers. This is simply brilliant. I think Don talked with Frank Pavliga (I'm making an assumption here) about Frank's extra large XXL passenger he took up in Sky Gypsy and on landing Frank could NOT throttle back because the knob in the front seat was binding on his XXL passenger's winter coat and the XXXL passenger didn't know it !!!! Frank was able to land safely but cutting the mag switch many times on final approach to descend and land. (like the old WWI blip-switches where you had either full power or a windmilling propeller) Thank God that Frank's throttle did not get stuck on this passenger's coat when attempting say a go around on a botched landing..... You take yer chances. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 05, 2009
I'm getting ready to do this soon too... can someone elaborate a bit more on the FWANG method? -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266738#266738 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Watch Drilling Holes in Plexiglas
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Love those videos. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266739#266739 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 3-piece wing fairings
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Clif, Thanks for the picture! You lost me with the "rubber T section" and "the wedgies", though. You say "wedgy" and my mind goes to a completely different place! Still, I think I get the picture that you have closed off the gap by extending the 1/16" plywood in to the area of the afore mentioned gap..I like that! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 8:09 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings What I have done is divide the distance between panels and extend the ply covering to that point. I will do the same with the wing panels. There will be a small gap, maybe 1/8" that I will fill with a rubber T section. Look above the wing attach fitting and you will see the extension. the T section is kinda like the depiction below. Stuffed into the gap the wedgies hold it in place and the "D" covers the gap. <-<-D Clif Kerri Anne Price has engineering drawings available for the "no gap method. The fittings are basically the same below the wing, just repositioned. I'm considering ordering them. But, I hesitate to deviate much from the plans. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio _____ Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:46:30 -0400 From: eng(at)canadianrogers.com Gary, What's the world coming to? Two whole days with no feedback... That aside, have you seen this method? http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName 070616_174.JPG <http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName 070616_174.JP G&PhotoID=3856> &PhotoID=3856 It doesn't have aluminum fairings, therefore no need to attach the fairings (because they aren't there). Of course, it means modifying the wing attachment fittings, since the connections have to be accessed from inside the centersection. Definitely more complicated, but nice and clean. And it's been done, so we know it's possible. But if you're going the traditional (plans) route, I'd just double up on the 1/16" plywood strips (add a second layer underneath) - that way you've got 1/8" of plywood to screw into, which should give you enough "bite" for the little wood screws that will hold the fairing strips in place. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairings All, I sent this out on Saturday, but got no feedback.it may have been lost in the flurry of weekend work/flying/other subjects. I am looking for a good way to attach the fairings between the wings and center section. Are Tinnermans the only best way to go? Gary Assuming that I do not want to attach my wing fairings with leather lacing like Larry Williams (a very nice touch), how are some of you attaching the aluminum fairing? The plans call for the 1/16" x 2" plywood, which will keep the fabric from sucking in the rib, and provide an attach for the fairing. But there must be a trick way of backing up the screws. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution _____ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Ge85/direct/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _____ - Release Date: 10/05/09 18:23:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2009
From: jorge lizarraga <flightwood(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 5 minutes
you need writing Que not Qe --- On Sat, 10/3/09, ALAN LYSCARS wrote: From: ALAN LYSCARS <alyscars(at)myfairpoint.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 5 minutes Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 6:15 AM =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AQe??=0A-=0AAl=0A=0A ----- Original Message ----- =0A F rom: =0A jorge =0A lizarraga =0A To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com =0A =0A Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 11:56 =0A PM=0A Subject: Re: Pietenpo l-List: 5 =0A minutes=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A oscar es pero que continues tanbien y disfrutan do tus =0A vuelos con tu piet yo estoy casi terminando toda la secci on de la cola y =0A boy ha empesar algunas partes de metal para los horns y attach for =0A cables te agradeseria mucho si me pudieras da r una idea mejor ge como =0A construir una vercion mejor dela palanc a de aselerador del gas (turttel) =0A asselerator ho algo asi estas son algunas fotos gracias de nuevo jorge =0A from hanford- y esper o cuando my piet este listo para volar poder =0A bisitar ha todoes u stedes tanks bery mauchs --- On Fri, =0A 10/2/09, Oscar Zuniga =0Awro te: =0A From: =0A Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: =0A 5 minutes Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, =0A 5:26 PM a Dan; =0A excellent video.- It really captures the essence of a typical =0A Piet flight, or at least part of it. I notice that at least one =0A of your lift struts has a splice in it.- I also notice that =0A your airplane wants to make carb ice as readily as mine does =0A ;o) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, =0A TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website =0A at http://www.flysquirrel.net --- =0A -------- =0A ------ =- - - - =0A - - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum -=0A http://www.matronic s.com/atronics.com" bsp; =0A - - - - - - - -Matt Dra lle, List =0A Adontribution" =0A target="_blank">http:/ /www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Watch A Night to Thank Harrison Ford
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 05, 2009
A couple of connections in this one. Harrison Ford Tribute http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184434145?bclid=1184431670&bctid=42883529001 -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266743#266743 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: 3-piece wing fairings
Date: Oct 05, 2009
Alright Gutterboy! :-) Maybe this will help. I've seen this stuff but can't remember where, exactly. I'll find when the time comes. Clif Clif, Thanks for the picture! You lost me with the "rubber T section" and "the wedgies", though. You say "wedgy" and my mind goes to a completely different place! Gary Boothe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar
From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com>
I haven't seen any specs as to how many growth rings per inch I think the assumption that grain run out of 16-1 will work but the growth rings seem wider I know Spruce you have max and min rings, the spruce on Alaskan costal areas is to brittle to many growth rings. russ On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 7:14 AM, vman1922 wrote: > > I see that Piper listed it as a substitute for the Cub- among other woods. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266543#266543 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Poplar
Date: Oct 06, 2009
FAA lists min of 6/in Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio Date: Tue=2C 6 Oct 2009 02:36:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Poplar From: rray032003(at)gmail.com I haven't seen any specs as to how many growth rings per inch I think the assumption that grain run out of 16-1 will work but the growth rings seem wider I know Spruce you have max and min rings=2C the spruce on Alaskan costal areas is to brittle to many growth rings. russ On Mon=2C Oct 5=2C 2009 at 7:14 AM=2C vman1922 wrote: I see that Piper listed it as a substitute for the Cub- among other woods. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266543#266543 s List Un/Subscription=2C www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target="_blank">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com Matt Dralle=2C List Admin. ==== =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Poplar
Date: Oct 06, 2009
And not the same thing as what's generally referred to as "Western Poplar", which i believe is actually Aspen, a significantly inferior wood. Kip Gardner On Oct 5, 2009, at 10:35 PM, Robert Ray wrote: > Tulip tree, tulip poplar and yellow poplar are all the same tree. > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Robert Ray > wrote: > It's strength is the same it's shock resistance difference is so small > that it shouldn't be a problem, there's a test chart on the freight > harbor's > catalog where they drop a hammer weight and shock test different > woods, I don't remember the exact numbers I don't have it here with > me but the difference is like the Spruce fails when hammer is dropped > from 41 inches and the poplar fails at 40 inches. > Another advantage that is only slight is poplar is slightly more > perishable. > There is also an independent test where a person test both woods > along with pine hemlock etc and he test conclude the poplar is > stronger > than spruce, you'll have to search and find it but the web site is > out there, > I also don't think that the nail holding ability of poplar isn't > quite as good. > I have seen older houses that were built out of poplar still standing > and the newer ones blown away after a tornado come through. > Of course the older house was boxed in with diagonal boards of poplar. > Where as the new ones had particule board. > > > Russell > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Doug Dever > wrote: > Should have been 15/16, but I stand corrected at 7/8. Anyway my > point was they were less than 1". Doing some SWAG engineering off > the top of my head I would say that poplar would be OK. > > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 17:50:13 -0400 > From: eng(at)canadianrogers.com > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Doug, > > I assume that was a typo. The longerons were definitely not 7/16". > I believe Dan Helsper posted to the list that he had measured the > longerons of "the Last Original", and found them to be 7/8" wide x > 1" high Spruce. > > Laminated Spruce spars are nothing new, and, if built properly, are > as strong as, if not stronger than a solid spar of Spruce. Well, > actually, they ARE solid spars of Spruce (held together with glue). > The two advantages of a laminated spar are: > 1. Using smaller sections of wood allows for better inspection > of the quality of the wood (harder to have hidden flaws in a small > section). > 2. It is possible to cut away sections with questionable quality > (knots, etc) without rejecting the whole piece of wood. Therefore, > from two "spars" that have small defects that might otherwise > render them both unsuitable for use as spars can have the > questionable areas cut away, and the good parts put together to > make one good spar. > > One big disadvantage of laminated spars is all the extra labor > required to build them. > Another concern is the reliance on the numerous glue joints > (obviously extra vigilance required when laying up the glue joints > for a spar). > > Bill C. > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner- > pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 3:13 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar > > I have heard on "The Last Original" the spruce longerons are 7/16 > spruce and we all know that Mr Pietenpols last few aircraft were > built with 3/4 laminated spars. I'd have to do some math, but 1" > poplar might be a direct replacement for 3/4 spruce. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ronics.com > ww.matronics.com/contribution > > > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Ge85/direct/01/' target='_new'>Sign > up now. > > > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > a href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http:// > forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N." <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Very easy. As you tighten the turnbuckles, pluck the wire like a guitar string. Cables of an equal length will have the same tone. The tighter you make it, the higher the pitch. There is no need to over tighten, it will only stress the wood. All you need is for the wing not to move and the tension reached when the cable makes the Fwang sound is tight enough. Dick N ----- Original Message ----- From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net> Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CABLE TENSION? > > I'm getting ready to do this soon too... can someone elaborate a bit more > on the FWANG method? > > -------- > Mark - working on wings > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266738#266738 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
If you didn't read Mad Magazine in the 60's and 70's (I studied them as my primary life guide...)...you probably won't recognize these words..... -----Original Message----- >From: K5YAC <hangar10(at)cox.net> >Sent: Oct 5, 2009 9:11 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CABLE TENSION? > > >I'm getting ready to do this soon too... can someone elaborate a bit more on the FWANG method? > >-------- >Mark - working on wings > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266738#266738 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Pete Bowers in the plans for the fly baby says to tighten the cables as tight as you can with your fingers, then give the turnbuckle barrel one more turn. When I did this on my wings, I got a FWANG sound. My Tech Counselor said to tighten to no more than 40#. When I checked it with a tensionometer, thats what I had. Rick S. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Don Emch-- brilliant---- throttle setup
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2009
No, I had never heard that story about Frank. It sounds like he had to do a little quick thinking though! He always has some good stories. I've learned a lot from his experiences! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266777#266777 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Thanks everybody! As i figured, i am overthinking this problem. I went ahead and made the tensioner this morning and i will check to see how many pounds it is after i get the "twang" sound. Being a machinist, i am very particular to exacting details........thats why when i put my wing together i couldn't fit a piece of paper between any of the joints.....wood is so much different than metal, i need to loosen up my personal tolerances. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266778#266778 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 3-piece wing fairings
Bill Church wrote: > Sounds like it did have a mishap on landing, and flipped over. And then > it was put up for sale. > http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Keri-Anns_Pietenpol_pics_1.html Sorry to hear that. Still, at least its feathers did not come off when the wax melted. Owen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: CABLE TENSION?
Date: Oct 06, 2009
I was fortunate that my hangar mate has a cable tensiometer and I used his to tension the wing strut X-brace cables. I didn't have any set value of tension though... I twanged one to the tension I liked, then checked the tension with the gauge, then set the others to the same tension. I also don't have Corky's piano-tuner ear so I don't know what key my cables twang in. West Marine carries the Loos "regular" cable tensiometer for $79.99 and it's good for 3/32", 1/8", and 5/32" cables. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
I thought for sure "Fwang" would be in here, but it isn't: http://www.collectmad.com/madcoversite/index-dmd.html Lots of good reading, though. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:49 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: CABLE TENSION? --> If you didn't read Mad Magazine in the 60's and 70's (I studied them as my primary life guide...)...you probably won't recognize these words..... -----Original Message----- >From: K5YAC <hangar10(at)cox.net> >Sent: Oct 5, 2009 9:11 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CABLE TENSION? > > >I'm getting ready to do this soon too... can someone elaborate a bit more on the FWANG method? > >-------- >Mark - working on wings > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: "Amelia" movie trailer - name that airplane!
All, I just took a look at the Amelia trailer and came across an interesting shot of a small, parasol plane with a radial engine. The image is attached - does anyone have an idea what it could be? Looks like it might be a Piet except for the lift struts... Cheers, Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: "Amelia" movie trailer - name that airplane!
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
I believe it's a Morane-Saulnier replica. http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/08/fun-flyer-lands-roll-in-new-amelia-earha rt-film/ Doesn't look so much like a Piet when you see the whole thing. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Yocum Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: "Amelia" movie trailer - name that airplane! All, I just took a look at the Amelia trailer and came across an interesting shot of a small, parasol plane with a radial engine. The image is attached - does anyone have an idea what it could be? Looks like it might be a Piet except for the lift struts... Cheers, Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Chris, Can you elaborate on your construction of the tensioner? Thanks, Jack www.textors.com Thanks everybody! As i figured, i am overthinking this problem. I went ahead and made the tensioner this morning and i will check to see how many pounds it is after i get the "twang" sound. Being a machinist, i am very particular to exacting details........thats why when i put my wing together i couldn't fit a piece of paper between any of the joints.....wood is so much different than metal, i need to loosen up my personal tolerances. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266778#266778 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 06:19:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Subject: Re: "Amelia" movie trailer - name that airplane!
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Dan, It looks to be Dick and Sharon Starks's Airdrome Aeroplanes Morane: http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/08/fun-flyer-lands-roll-in-new-amelia-earhart-film/ On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Dan Yocum wrote: > All, > > I just took a look at the Amelia trailer and came across an interesting > shot of a small, parasol plane with a radial engine. The image is attached > - does anyone have an idea what it could be? Looks like it might be a Piet > except for the lift struts... > > Cheers, > Dan > > -- > Dan Yocum > Fermilab 630.840.6509 > yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov > Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Abramson" <davea(at)symbolicdisplays.com>
Subject: "Amelia" movie trailer - name that airplane!
Date: Oct 06, 2009
I concur! Morane !!! 1919 / 1920 ? They have one at ole Rinebeck! Scary Beast! Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dan Yocum Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:34 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: "Amelia" movie trailer - name that airplane! All, I just took a look at the Amelia trailer and came across an interesting shot of a small, parasol plane with a radial engine. The image is attached - does anyone have an idea what it could be? Looks like it might be a Piet except for the lift struts... Cheers, Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4445 (20090921) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Here is the print of the tensioner. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266822#266822 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cable_tension_gage_111.bmp ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 3-piece wing fairings
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Oct 06, 2009
does anyone have better pictures of Kerri Anne's Piet? that is one beautiful plane. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266823#266823 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <catdesigns(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: 3-piece wing fairings
Date: Oct 06, 2009
http://westcoastpiet.com/yesterday_wings.htm Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 3-piece wing fairings > > does anyone have better pictures of Kerri Anne's Piet? that is one > beautiful plane. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266823#266823 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Subject: 3-piece wing fairing attach method
Gary, I glued little blocks of wood every 3-4" to the plywood-sheeted but rib end s and CC sheeted ribs with T-88 and then used small flathead wood screws thru my aluminum fairings to attach. Worked fine. Mike C. PS-I considered Velcro for a time but.......decided against it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: CABLE TENSION?
Dan Yocum wrote: > Chris, > > I seem to recall reading something like 140 lbs... search the archives > for the term 'tensiometer' in the subject line. Ah. 40#. Missed it by thaaaaaaaat ---> <--- much. What's an order of magnitude between friends? ;-) Cheers, Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: stephen labash <slabash(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: intercostals wing rib
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Pietenpol's rib plans do not call for intercostal braces anterior and poste rior to the two spars. Yet all the photos I have seen show them. Follow t he plans or go with the many? Comments appreciated. Steve =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 3-piece wing fairings
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Thanks, i can't believe i missed that one. Does anyone know what color of yellow that is? Catdesigns wrote: > http://westcoastpiet.com/yesterday_wings.htm > > > Chris > Sacramento, CA > WestCoastPiet.com > > > --- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266840#266840 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Watch A Night to Thank Harrison Ford
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Dang it... I meant to say there are a couple of connections in THIS one... http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184434145?bclid=1184431670&bctid=42806230001 -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266848#266848 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Subject: toasting-- Jimmy Doolittle style
SSBzYXcgdGhpcyBkaXNwbGF5IHR3byB3ZWVrcyBhZ28gYXQgdGhlIFVTQUYgTXVzZXVtIGluIERh eXRvbuKAlHRoZSBzaWx2ZXIgZ29ibGV0cyBhcmUgaW4gYSBzaG93Y2FzZSB3aXRoIHRoZSAxMTMg eWVhciBvbGQgYm90dGxlIG9mIGNvZ25hYyB0aGF0IHdpbGwgYmUgb3BlbmVkIHdoZW4gdGhlcmUg YXJlIG9ubHkgMiBvZiB0aGUgRG9vbGl0dGxlIFJhaWRlcnMgYWxpdmUuDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KRG9v bGl0dGxlIFJhaWRlcnMgZHJpbmsgYSB0b2FzdCB0byB0aGVpciBmYWxsZW4gcmFpZGVycyBkdXJp bmcgYSByZXVuaW9uIGFuZCBnb2JsZXQgY2VyZW1vbnkgaW4gU2FuIEFudG9uaW8gQXByaWwgMTgu IFdoZW4gdGhlcmUgYXJlIGJ1dCB0d28gUmFpZGVycyBsZWZ0LCB0aGUgdHdvIG1lbiB3aWxsIG9w ZW4gYSBib3R0bGUgb2YgY29nbmFjLCB2aW50YWdlIDE4OTYgKHRoZSB5ZWFyIERvb2xpdHRsZSB3 YXMgYm9ybikgYW5kIGdpdmUgYSBmaW5hbCB0b2FzdCB0byB0aGVpciBkZXBhcnRlZCBjb21yYWRl cy4gRm91cnRlZW4gb2YgdGhlIDgwIFJhaWRlcnMgYXJlIHN0aWxsIGFsaXZlLiAoVS5TLiBBaXIg Rm9yY2UgcGhvdG8vU3RhZmYgU2d0LiBCcmlhbiBGZXJndXNvbikNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpbY2lkOmlt YWdlMDAxLmpwZ0AwMUNBNDY5Qy45QTJGOEIxMF0NCg0KDQoNClJlYWQgbW9yZSBiZWxvdzoNCg0K W2NpZDppbWFnZTAwMi5qcGdAMDFDQTQ2OUMuOUEyRjhCMTBdDQoNCg0KDQoNCkRvb2xpdHRsZSBS YWlkZXJzIGNlbGVicmF0ZSA2NSB5ZWFycyBzaW5jZSBoaXN0b3JpYyBtaXNzaW9uDQoNClRoZSBn b2JsZXQgb2YgU3RhZmYgU2d0LiBXaWxsaWFtIEwuIEJpcmNoLCBhIERvb2xpdHRsZSBSYWlkZXIg YW5kIGJvbWJhcmRpZXIgZnJvbSBjcmV3IE5vLjExLCB3YXMgdHVybmVkIG92ZXIgZHVyaW5nIGEg R29ibGV0IENlcmVtb255IEFwcmlsIDE4IGFzIHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIDY1dGggQW5uaXZlcnNhcnkg RG9vbGl0dGxlIFJhaWRlciBSZXVuaW9uIGhlbGQgaW4gU2FuIEFudG9uaW8uIEEgdG9hc3Qgd2Fz IG1hZGUgaW4gU2VyZ2VhbnQgQmlyY2gncyBob25vci4gSGUgcGFzc2VkIGF3YXkgTm92LiAxOCwg MjAwNi4gV2hlbiBhIFJhaWRlciBkaWVzLCBhIHRvYXN0IGlzIG1hZGUgdGhlaXIgaG9ub3IgYW5k IHRoZSBnb2JsZXQgaXMgdHVybmVkIHVwc2lkZSBkb3duLiBXaGVuIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBidXQgdHdv IFJhaWRlcnMgbGVmdCwgdGhlIHR3byBtZW4gd2lsbCBvcGVuIGEgYm90dGxlIG9mIGNvZ25hYywg dmludGFnZSAxODk2LCB0aGUgeWVhciBKaW1teSBEb29saXR0bGUgd2FzIGJvcm4sIGFuZCBvbmNl IGZpbmFsIHRvYXN0IHdpbGwgYmUgbWFkZSB0byB0aGUgZGVwYXJ0ZWQgY29tcmFkZXMuIEZvdXJ0 ZWVuIG9mIHRoZSA4MCByYWlkZXJzIGFyZSBzdGlsbCBhbGl2ZS4gKFUuUy4gQWlyIEZvcmNlIHBo b3RvL1N0YWZmIFNndC4gQnJpYW4gRmVyZ3Vzb24pDQoNCg0KDQoNCg= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: intercostals wing rib
I am sorry; I have lost the thread here. What braces from where to where? Moreover, you all are too elegant for my limited smarts-- "intercostal?" By golly, that sounds like we'll need empty milk jugs to stay afloat... don't go there, please... I'm kidding there, but I don't know "intercostal." Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: stephen labash Sent: Oct 6, 2009 1:15 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: intercostals wing rib Pietenpol's rib plans do not call for intercostal braces anterior and posterior to the two spars. Yet all the photos I have seen show them. Follow the plans or go with the many? Comments appreciated. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: 3-piece wing fairing attach method
Date: Oct 06, 2009
I just used #10 sheet metal screws into the rib wood. After 5 years and close to 200 hours of flying they still hold. The wings have been removed and re-installed three times with those screws, and they still work fine. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairing attach method Gary, I glued little blocks of wood every 3-4" to the plywood-sheeted but rib ends and CC sheeted ribs with T-88 and then used small flathead wood screws thru my aluminum fairings to attach. Worked fine. Mike C. PS-I considered Velcro for a time but...decided against it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: intercostals wing rib
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Tim, "intercostal" is just a fancy word for a structural member between two other structural members, when there is no other word for it. It is really a medical term, meaning "between the ribs", but I know there were some "intercostals" between the fuselage bulkheads on the F-16. They were usually added to provide a surface to mount something on - e.g., I remember there was an intercostal in the cockpit of the F-16 between a couple of bulkheads that provided the mount for the throttle lever. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC In Rainy North Vernon Indiana tonight -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: intercostals wing rib I am sorry; I have lost the thread here. What braces from where to where? Moreover, you all are too elegant for my limited smarts-- "intercostal?" By golly, that sounds like we'll need empty milk jugs to stay afloat... don't go there, please... I'm kidding there, but I don't know "intercostal." Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: stephen labash Sent: Oct 6, 2009 1:15 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: intercostals wing rib Pietenpol's rib plans do not call for intercostal braces anterior and posterior to the two spars. Yet all the photos I have seen show them. Follow the plans or go with the many? Comments appreciated. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: intercostals wing rib
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
The vertical braces are not shown in the Flying and Glider Magazine, nor in the set of Improved Pietenpol Air Camper Pietenpol plans, BUT they ARE shown in the full-size rib plan that is available from the Pietenpol family. They aren't really necessary for strength, but do provide a nice reference point when installing the ribs onto the spars. It's your choice whether to use them or not - both methods would qualify as "per the plans", in my mind. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of stephen labash Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:16 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: intercostals wing rib Pietenpol's rib plans do not call for intercostal braces anterior and posterior to the two spars. Yet all the photos I have seen show them. Follow the plans or go with the many? Comments appreciated. Steve ________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: 3-piece wing fairing attach method
Date: Oct 06, 2009
A marine trick for when the screw holes eventually enlarge, is to drill then a bit oversize, stuff them with a thickened epoxy, and re-drill them. A refinement is to spray a dry spray-lube like Elmer's or McLube on the screws and insert them into the wet epoxy. When the epoxy cures, the screw threads are nicely formed, and the spray lube (even WD-40 works) lets you unscrew them. Hint, let the spray lube dry first. The overall approach is an effective method of putting screw threads into a sealed hole in wood or some other material. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:54 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairing attach method I just used #10 sheet metal screws into the rib wood. After 5 years and close to 200 hours of flying they still hold. The wings have been removed and re-installed three times with those screws, and they still work fine. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:08 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairing attach method Gary, I glued little blocks of wood every 3-4" to the plywood-sheeted but rib ends and CC sheeted ribs with T-88 and then used small flathead wood screws thru my aluminum fairings to attach. Worked fine. Mike C. PS-I considered Velcro for a time but...decided against it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: How many flying with Riblett 612?
I am trying to figure out which rib jig to build. The stock airfoil or the Riblett 612. The biggest reason for the 612 would be to get a better rate of climb. I have been in planes climbing at 250 fpm and did not like it. A side benefit would be the slightly larger center section volume for either fuel or luggage. I know that there are a few people building 612 wings but how many have actually been flown? Are there any downsides like CG problems - the Piet is know for coming out tail heavy. Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: 3-piece wing fairing attach method
Date: Oct 06, 2009
of course, another old-time trick is to simply break off a wooden matchstick in the hole and reinstall the screw. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: David Paule<mailto:dpaule(at)frii.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairing attach method A marine trick for when the screw holes eventually enlarge, is to drill then a bit oversize, stuff them with a thickened epoxy, and re-drill them. A refinement is to spray a dry spray-lube like Elmer's or McLube on the screws and insert them into the wet epoxy. When the epoxy cures, the screw threads are nicely formed, and the spray lube (even WD-40 works) lets you unscrew them. Hint, let the spray lube dry first. The overall approach is an effective method of putting screw threads into a sealed hole in wood or some other material. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips<mailto:pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:54 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairing attach method I just used #10 sheet metal screws into the rib wood. After 5 years and close to 200 hours of flying they still hold. The wings have been removed and re-installed three times with those screws, and they still work fine. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:08 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3-piece wing fairing attach method Gary, I glued little blocks of wood every 3-4" to the plywood-sheeted but rib ends and CC sheeted ribs with T-88 and then used small flathead wood screws thru my aluminum fairings to attach. Worked fine. Mike C. PS-I considered Velcro for a time but...decided against it. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net>
Subject: Re: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams...
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Ross, I just took off the cap (I used a plastic cannister) and slipped the cannister over the mic, with the small hole I drilled in line with the mic. I was then able to slip a foam mic cover over the cannister. Everyone reported good audio. I should have mentioned that I used coflex (stuff that is used by nurses to secure a bandage), to wrap the mic in before I put the cannister on. You can buy it at any drug store. The colfax keep the cannister from slipping off. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ross Alexander To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:43 PM Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... Can you describe this a little further? How did you attach the cannister to the mike? Ross in Orangeville, Ontario, Canada 85 hp Piet ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Gene & Tammy <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, October 4, 2009 7:29:10 PM Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... Speaking of radios.....A while back, when I was having problems being understood on the radio because of all the wind noise, someone on this list suggested I put a 35mm film canister, with a small hole, over the mike. I'm here to tell you it works great! Thanks to whom ever passed on that info to me. Gene N502R httt; http://www.matronics.com/contrib============== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- The new Internet Explorer=AE 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 10/05/09 18:23:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Glass <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: intercostals wing rib
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Intercostal is a term used frequently in sailboat construction. Typically a longitudinal face between the deck and the hull side on a 45 degree angle . Steve in Maine > From: pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: intercostals wing rib > Date: Tue=2C 6 Oct 2009 17:02:00 -0400 > .net> > > Tim=2C "intercostal" is just a fancy word for a structural member between two > other structural members=2C when there is no other word for it. It is re ally > a medical term=2C meaning "between the ribs"=2C but I know there were som e > "intercostals" between the fuselage bulkheads on the F-16. They were > usually added to provide a surface to mount something on - e.g.=2C I reme mber > there was an intercostal in the cockpit of the F-16 between a couple of > bulkheads that provided the mount for the throttle lever. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Raleigh=2C NC > In Rainy North Vernon Indiana tonight > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willi s > Sent: Tuesday=2C October 06=2C 2009 4:04 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: intercostals wing rib > > > > I am sorry=3B I have lost the thread here. What braces from where to whe re? > > Moreover=2C you all are too elegant for my limited smarts-- "intercostal? " By > golly=2C that sounds like we'll need empty milk jugs to stay afloat... do n't > go there=2C please... I'm kidding there=2C but I don't know "intercostal. " > Tim in central TX > > -----Original Message----- > From: stephen labash > Sent: Oct 6=2C 2009 1:15 PM > To: Pietenpol matronics =2C "stephen labash.RA-269074" > Subject: Pietenpol-List: intercostals wing rib > > > > Pietenpol's rib plans do not call for intercostal braces anterior and > posterior to the two spars. Yet all the photos I have seen show them. > Follow the plans or go with the many? Comments appreciated. Steve > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: Ryan M <aircamperace(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Piet in WA
---- Does anyone have any information on the "Pietenpol" built by B ill Duncane in Spokane that's listed on Barnstormers? The gear looks like G rega possibly. Please email me directly. - Thank you, - Ryan=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Subject: Re: Baltic birch plywood
From: John Fay <jfay1950(at)gmail.com>
> *On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Owen Davies wrote:* > > > *Among other comments, Robert Ray wrote:* > > *... for my project I will however use Baltic * > > *birch that's ripped diagonally across the board putting all the grains > as the truss of a bridge and use Douglas fir to cap strip both > > * *sides in an I beam fashion, the web will be 1/4'' Baltic birch, ...* > > * > That should work wonderfully, right up until the plywood delaminates. > Baltic birch ply is high quality stuff, but nearly everything you'll find in > the U.S. is interior grade and much less water resistant than aircraft or > marine ply. > __________________________________________________________________________ > * *Owen, > > My partner and I are using Baltic birch for the 1/8" gussets on the > fuselage and empennage. Our supplier checked and said it was made with an > exterior glue. I do not recall the name of the glue but have it recorded > somewhere in my records. I have bought two different batches, and tested > each by soaking. After 5 or 6 weeks of soaking, no delamination occurred. > I could not get any of it to separate. We are using the European GL 2 (?) 5 > ply, 1/8" equivalent for the fuselage side ply. Both resisted any > delamination from soaking, but when boiled, the GL 2 remained solid, but the > Baltic birch came apart quickly in boiling water. I know that T-88 will > also come apart when heated, so I figured that since I was using T-88 for > the glue joints, a similar type of glue in the plywood would not be a > problem. > > John Fay > in Peoria* ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Subject: Re: How many flying with Riblett 612?
From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com>
Go to utube and watch Frank Lowell Brodhead 2009, he'll give you the news and all the information, russel On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Dave and Connie wrote: > dmatt(at)frontiernet.net> > > I am trying to figure out which rib jig to build. The stock airfoil or the > Riblett 612. The biggest reason for the 612 would be to get a better rate > of climb. I have been in planes climbing at 250 fpm and did not like it. A > side benefit would be the slightly larger center section volume for either > fuel or luggage. > > I know that there are a few people building 612 wings but how many have > actually been flown? > > Are there any downsides like CG problems - the Piet is know for coming out > tail heavy. > > Dave > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: the cost of building
Date: Oct 06, 2009
When I started construction of my first (and only) plans-built homebuilt, the Flying Squirrel that I'm still working on, I kept a very detailed log of build time, tasks, costs, and receipts. I am still keeping it. After more than six years of building and virtually no flying, I knew I'd have to have an airplane to fly or I'd lose my flying skills. I bought Corky's Piet so I could keep flying while I continued to build and that was five years ago now (I first cut wood on the Squirrel eleven years ago). I have learned a lot about the cost of building an airplane. Mostly it consists of dozens of purchases of $10-$20 range, with a few in the $50-$100 dollar range, once the big ticket items are paid for (wood, engine, instruments). The thing about it is, it's not like when you go to buy a new car and have to sign for something with five figures right there, right then. And in the case of working on an airplane that you are also flying, it's nearly painless. Repairs, upgrades, enhancements- the cost of those is very easy to bear, and so is fuel. No, it's getting into the game that is the most painful and yet in hindsight, it's really not that significant. I paid more for a new washer and dryer than it costs for all the wood to build an airframe and wings. I paid more for my lawnmower than it costs for the glass cloth and epoxy resin to build my Flying Squirrel. I paid more for my daughter's 2004 Camry with over 100K miles on it than for a complete A65 with carb, mags, and exhaust. And yet buying the Camry was so casual that I met the seller at the parking lot of a mall, handed him a check, he gave me the papers for it, and I drove off. Just like that. Buying an airplane engine, or a prop, or almost anything for it- seems to require a lot more agonizing, rationalization, and saving up than it really should. Once you're flying, there is no turning back; you're hooked. I have never thought about the shipping & handling costs for things I buy for the airplane, and although I'm sure it's a significant cost, it's nothing compared with what I get out of flying my Air Camper. Nothing. Don't let the cost of building or flying be the only deterrent to engaging in it. Start simple, work your way up, and don't look back. And to think that for those in professional employment the government skims almost as much off a 2-week paycheck than it costs for a complete set of new Slick mags, harness, and plugs for the engine, and this happens every two weeks!!! Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: intercostals wing rib
Jack, Bill, and Steve, thanks. I understand the location and definition now. Whew, I am past that issue on the ribs. I thought this was something I had missed. I keep finding little niggling details, but so far at least just in time, thanks to help of all of you (sometimes "us"). Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> >Sent: Oct 6, 2009 4:02 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: intercostals wing rib > > >Tim, "intercostal" is just a fancy word for a structural member between two >other structural members, when there is no other word for it. It is really >a medical term, meaning "between the ribs", but I know there were some >"intercostals" between the fuselage bulkheads on the F-16. They were >usually added to provide a surface to mount something on - e.g., I remember >there was an intercostal in the cockpit of the F-16 between a couple of >bulkheads that provided the mount for the throttle lever. > >Jack Phillips >NX899JP >Raleigh, NC >In Rainy North Vernon Indiana tonight > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis >Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 4:04 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: intercostals wing rib > > > >I am sorry; I have lost the thread here. What braces from where to where? > >Moreover, you all are too elegant for my limited smarts-- "intercostal?" By >golly, that sounds like we'll need empty milk jugs to stay afloat... don't >go there, please... I'm kidding there, but I don't know "intercostal." >Tim in central TX > >-----Original Message----- >From: stephen labash >Sent: Oct 6, 2009 1:15 PM >To: Pietenpol matronics , "stephen labash.RA-269074" >Subject: Pietenpol-List: intercostals wing rib > > >Pietenpol's rib plans do not call for intercostal braces anterior and >posterior to the two spars. Yet all the photos I have seen show them. >Follow the plans or go with the many? Comments appreciated. Steve > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: No RPM drop on mag check??
Well, the electric-eye doohicky RPM reader says that there is no RPM drop at high RPMs, either... I may drop by Harry Fenton's place and see what he has to say, some day. Robert Ray wrote: > Oh so the tach was bad not the mags well lucky you. > > On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Dan Yocum > wrote: > > > > > Just a quick note on this subject - during our flight on Thursday we > stopped in at friend's airfield and he lent me his digital rpm > reader - I don't recall the official name of it at the moment. > > I have to do some more methodical tests, but what I did see suggests > that the tachometer is low by about 11.4%. That is, at 1000RPM > indicated on the tachometer, the prop was actually spinning at > 1140RPM. So, at 2050RPM (which I do achieve when I lean it out) > it's actually spinning at around 2280. That's close enough to > redline for my tastes. > > When Tres delivered the plane he mentioned that at one point in the > past the tach pegged itself at the high end. Turns out that some > oil got up inside the tachometer from the cable. He cleaned the > tachometer up, but apparently didn't recalibrate it. So, mystery > solved on that one. -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: the cost of building
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Very Well Said Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > From: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: the cost of building > Date: Tue=2C 6 Oct 2009 21:23:57 -0500 > > > > > When I started construction of my first (and only) > plans-built homebuilt=2C the Flying Squirrel that I'm > still working on=2C I kept a very detailed log of build > time=2C tasks=2C costs=2C and receipts. I am still keeping > it. After more than six years of building and virtually > no flying=2C I knew I'd have to have an airplane to fly > or I'd lose my flying skills. I bought Corky's Piet so > I could keep flying while I continued to build and > that was five years ago now (I first cut wood on the > Squirrel eleven years ago). > > I have learned a lot about the cost of building an > airplane. Mostly it consists of dozens of purchases > of $10-$20 range=2C with a few in the $50-$100 dollar range=2C > once the big ticket items are paid for (wood=2C engine=2C > instruments). The thing about it is=2C it's not like > when you go to buy a new car and have to sign for > something with five figures right there=2C right then. > And in the case of working on an airplane that you are > also flying=2C it's nearly painless. Repairs=2C upgrades=2C > enhancements- the cost of those is very easy to bear=2C > and so is fuel. No=2C it's getting into the game that is > the most painful and yet in hindsight=2C it's really not > that significant. > > I paid more for a new washer and dryer than it costs for > all the wood to build an airframe and wings. I paid > more for my lawnmower than it costs for the glass cloth > and epoxy resin to build my Flying Squirrel. I paid > more for my daughter's 2004 Camry with over 100K miles > on it than for a complete A65 with carb=2C mags=2C and > exhaust. And yet buying the Camry was so casual that > I met the seller at the parking lot of a mall=2C handed > him a check=2C he gave me the papers for it=2C and I drove > off. Just like that. Buying an airplane engine=2C or > a prop=2C or almost anything for it- seems to require a > lot more agonizing=2C rationalization=2C and saving up than > it really should. > > Once you're flying=2C there is no turning back=3B you're > hooked. I have never thought about the shipping & handling > costs for things I buy for the airplane=2C and although > I'm sure it's a significant cost=2C it's nothing compared > with what I get out of flying my Air Camper. Nothing. > > Don't let the cost of building or flying be the only > deterrent to engaging in it. Start simple=2C work your way > up=2C and don't look back. And to think that for those in > professional employment the government > skims almost as much off a 2-week paycheck than it costs > for a complete set of new Slick mags=2C harness=2C and plugs for > the engine=2C and this happens every two weeks!!! > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > San Antonio=2C TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Baltic birch plywood
I have no problem with the GL 2 plywood as I am using it for my plywood on my aerobatic Jungster 1 biplane.- However Why re-invent the wheel with a re-designed spar?- The spruce spar works, is time tested and strong.- M y oppinion is to stick to the plans, the engeneering is already done.- Un less you have previous experiance designing and load testing, and plan to l oad test a test spar just use the solid spruce (or doug fir) spar and be do ne with it.- I know this is experimental aviation, but using a plywood bu ilt up spar will only complicate the build, and add extra steps to the buil ding process. - K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid), is my philosiphy, getting complicated onl y makes it complicated. - Not ment to offend anyone, just my hillbilly oppinion, Shad=0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo p://mail.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
Subject: Re: Baltic birch plywood
From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com>
The bulliten on west coast Piets says per weight it is both stronger, lighter takes very little time, and they don't use gl-2, they use marine with 45 degree grain. Saves money on wood for sure. It really takes only three maybe four hours to build a spar. The wheels in your head must be turning or you wouldn't of asked. I just bought a plane to fly so I can take all the time I want. Russell On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:38 PM, shad bell wrote: > > I have no problem with the GL 2 plywood as I am using it for my plywood on > my aerobatic Jungster 1 biplane. However Why re-invent the wheel with a > re-designed spar? The spruce spar works, is time tested and strong. My > oppinion is to stick to the plans, the engeneering is already done. Unless > you have previous experiance designing and load testing, and plan to load > test a test spar just use the solid spruce (or doug fir) spar and be done > with it. I know this is experimental aviation, but using a plywood built up > spar will only complicate the build, and add extra steps to the building > process. > > K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid), is my philosiphy, getting complicated > only makes it complicated. > > Not ment to offend anyone, just my hillbilly oppinion, > Shad > > ______________________________________ > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Baltic birch plywood
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Well Shad, In the case of the built-up spar like Peter Johnson built in Australia, there was no re-designing needed. In the UK, where amateur aircraft construction is much more restrictive than it is in North America, by law, the only plans that may be used to build a Pietenpol there are a set of the original Pietenpol plans with several mandatory changes. Included in those plans, as designed by Jim Wills, is the plans for that built-up spar. The re-design was prompted by the lack of availability of suitable spar material in the UK, and the result is a built-up spar that is reported to be stronger, lighter and cheaper than a solid Spruce spar. The only downside that I can see is that there is considerably more labor (or labour, since it's British) required to build the built-up spar, as compared to using a solid hunk of Spruce. But then, if one was looking for an aircraft design that didn't require much labor, the Piet is likely the wrong choice anyway, so what's a few more hours in the workshop? And, since, in the UK, the LAA (formerly the PFA) does a thorough engineering review of an aircraft's design prior to allowing any to be built, one can rest assured that the spar design is safe. The down side to all of this is that Mr. Wills apparently will not sell a set of the modified plans to anyone on this side of "the Pond", apparently due to fears of liability. If you aren't aware of Peter's Pietenpol, he maintained a fantastic, fully detailed website throughout the build process, which is still available to view, even though Peter has sold the Air Camper (thanks Peter). http://www.cpc-world.com/ Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of shad bell Sent: Tue 06/10/2009 10:38 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Baltic birch plywood I have no problem with the GL 2 plywood as I am using it for my plywood on my aerobatic Jungster 1 biplane.- However Why re-invent the wheel with a re-designed spar?- The spruce spar works, is time tested and strong.- My oppinion is to stick to the plans, the engeneering is already done.- Unless you have previous experiance designing and load testing, and plan to load test a test spar just use the solid spruce (or doug fir) spar and be done with it.- I know this is experimental aviation, but using a plywood built up spar will only complicate the build, and add extra steps to the building process. - K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid), is my philosiphy, getting complicated only makes it complicated. - Not ment to offend anyone, just my hillbilly oppinion, Shad __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoop://mail.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: intercostals wing rib
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 06, 2009
I followed Chuck Gantzer's lead and installed two "intercostal" uprights per spar (4 per rib). Probably overkill, but it is done. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266902#266902 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: jorge lizarraga <flightwood(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: translating Jorge's post- #1
these post is for javier in maxico corse in spanis Im bery happi to tras la te to any, one if you like guys;......;ok es toy en california javier deje guadalajara asia 14 anos atras en don de empese a construir- una replica 7/8 scala del nieupor- bebe aqui estou ya con un 38% de mi pieten pol ter minado recientemente estos dias acabe toda mi seccion de cola en que parte de mexico estas si es guadalajara te puedo con tactar con algunos pilotos y home builders saludos desde usa, jorge from hanford --- On Mon, 10/5/09, Javier Cruz wrote: From: Javier Cruz <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: translating Jorge's post- #1 Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 5:49 PM Hi dear Piets,- well, after to let the piet for almost two years now i ha ve time for work on it, i will clean all (to many dust) ,finish the fuel ta nk and install it... Jorge Donde estas ubicado?- yo estoy en la Ciudad de Mexico, tengo ya algunos a =F1os trabajando en mi Pietenpol... Saludos Javier Cruz pd. good translation Oscar le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2009
From: jorge lizarraga <flightwood(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Poplar;perfect
these is amaisen proyect i lern some were about people used wood for cabane s these is real hicory and spruse parts i like to now and how to found thes e wood=C2- is le$$$$ $pence in these way? the ww1 planes used for all tru e ward and is bery acrobatic planes tanks for all you inform jorge from han ford, --- On Mon, 10/5/09, Gary Boothe wrote: From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 7:41 AM =0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ATom, =0A =0A =C2- =0A=0AHere are a few pics. Mine are simply=0Alaminated Hickory =0Awith no other frills. I can take some other close-ups if you want. The l ift=0Astruts will also be Hickory ,=0Abut I won=99t make them until t he wings are done and I can get some actual=0Ameasurements for length. I li ke the attachments that Douwe shows in the=0Aattachment. =0A=0A =C2- =0A =0AI know others have used spruce and combination=0Awith core materials =93 you should be fine. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0AGary Boothe =0A=0ACool , Ca. =0A=0APietenpol =0A=0AWW Corvair Conversion,=0Amounted =0A=0ATail=0Ad one,=C2-Fuselage=C2-on gear =0A=0A(15 ribs down) =0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom:=0Aowner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM MICH ELLE BRANT =0ASent: Monday, October 05, 2009=0A7:14 AM =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com =0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List:=0APoplar =0A=0A=0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=0AGary, =0A =0AI'm interested in your struts - do you have a photo?=C2- Are these the lift=0Astruts, cabanes,???=C2- I plan on making mine of spruce with a pl y core=0A(lift, cabanes, etc). =0A =0AThanks, =0A =0ATom B. =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: gboothe5(at)comcast.net =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com =0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar =0ADate: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 05:13:36 -0700 =0A=0A=0A=0ADoug, =0A=0A=C2- =0A =0AHere=99s a page out of 43.13. It shows=0Athat Poplar is not a =98direct=99 replacement, but very close. My=0Aairframe is all Pop lar, Hickory =0Astruts, fir spars. =0A=0A=C2- =0A=0A=0A=0AGary Boothe =0A =0ACool, Ca. =0A=0APietenpol =0A=0AWW Corvair Conversion, mounted =0A=0ATai l done,=C2-Fuselage=C2-on gear =0A=0A(15 ribs down) =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom:=0Aowner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.co m=0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug De ver =0ASent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:16=0AAM =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com =0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Poplar =0A=0A=0A=0A=C2- =0A=0ASomeone stated recently that they=0Aread somewhere that the FAA stated that Yellow Poplar was a direct replacement=0Afor Spruce.=C2- Darned if I could find it in t he archives.=C2- The only source=0AI can find is AC 43.13 which states th at it is not a direct replacement due to=0Ait's slightly lower strength and shock resistance.=C2- I know it's properties=0Aare similar, but If who e ver said this could speak up and let me know the=0Asource I'd appreciate it .=C2- Good Doug Fir is Impossible to get locally, but=0AI found a source locally for for beautiful poplar (which isn't a poplar at all,=0Ait's a tul ip tree. Go figure)=C2- I'd feel a lot more comfortable using it if=0AI c ould find some supporting documentation. =0A =0ADoug Dever =0AIn beautiful Stow=0A Ohio =0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AHotmail: PowerfuL/go/171222986/direct/01/'=0Ata rget='_new'>Get it now. =0A=0A=C2-=C2-http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/cont ribution=C2- =0A=0A =C2- =C2-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piete npol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar;perfect
From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com>
I think perhaps Piet one and maybe two possibly had wood ca banes, That is the first Mr. Pietenpol built. NOT SURE There should be wood in your area that has the characteristic's that meet your needs, check for ash, oak, check with a local timber man, then research the species. In other words in Europe the Zlin has been built with Polish Pine spars, so look at a local variety in your area, select it grade it your self. Hope this helps, Russell On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:00 AM, jorge lizarraga wrote : > these is amaisen proyect i lern some were about people used wood for > cabanes these is real hicory and spruse parts i like to now and how to fo und > these wood is le$$$$ $pence in these way? the ww1 planes used for all tr ue > ward and is bery acrobatic planes tanks for all you inform jorge from > hanford, > > --- On *Mon, 10/5/09, Gary Boothe * wrote: > > > From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 7:41 AM > > Tom, > > > Here are a few pics. Mine are simply laminated Hickory with no other > frills. I can take some other close-ups if you want. The lift struts will > also be Hickory , but I won=92t make them until the wings are done and I can > get some actual measurements for length. I like the attachments that Douw e > shows in the attachment. > > > I know others have used spruce and combination with core materials ' yo u > should be fine. > > > Gary Boothe > > Cool, Ca. > > Pietenpol > > WW Corvair Conversion, mounted > > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > > (15 ribs down=85) > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *TOM MICHELLE > BRANT > *Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2009 7:14 AM > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar > > > Gary, > > I'm interested in your struts - do you have a photo? Are these the lift > struts, cabanes,??? I plan on making mine of spruce with a ply core (lif t, > cabanes, etc). > > Thanks, > > Tom B. > ------------------------------ > > From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Poplar > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 05:13:36 -0700 > > Doug, > > > Here=92s a page out of 43.13. It shows that Poplar is not a =91direct=92 > replacement, but very close. My airframe is all Poplar, Hickory struts, f ir > spars. > > > Gary Boothe > > Cool, Ca. > > Pietenpol > > WW Corvair Conversion, mounted > > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > > (15 ribs down=85) > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Doug Dever > *Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2009 2:16 AM > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Poplar > > > Someone stated recently that they read somewhere that the FAA stated that > Yellow Poplar was a direct replacement for Spruce. Darned if I could fin d > it in the archives. The only source I can find is AC 43.13 which states > that it is not a direct replacement due to it's slightly lower strength a nd > shock resistance. I know it's properties are similar, but If who ever sa id > this could speak up and let me know the source I'd appreciate it. Good D oug > Fir is Impossible to get locally, but I found a source locally for for > beautiful poplar (which isn't a poplar at all, it's a tulip tree. Go > figure) I'd feel a lot more comfortable using it if I could find some > supporting documentation. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > ------------------------------ > > Hotmail: PowerfuL/go/171222986/direct/01/' target='_new'>Get it now. > > * * > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Google Images
Date: Oct 07, 2009
All, Just a reminder, Google Images is a fantastic resource, when you are bored just search for pietenpol air camper. Jack www.textors.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Tom Brown
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Anybody have Tom Brown's contact info? Thanks, Jack www.textors.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 07, 2009
One more thing... There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use springs, just straight cables? Obviously, bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder bar, which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs, and you'd save a few ounces. In you flyer's experiences, how bad can the bumps and jerks be from the tailwheel, and what do you think of this idea? Thanks Douwe, ps: finished windscreens, now doing leather cockpit coaming, which is very rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing going!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: control cable exit holes
Date: Oct 07, 2009
I am looking at where my control cables exit the fuselage and run back to the "flippers". Most people seem to glue some leather patches over them, but I was wondering... The slits I made in the fuse covering were pretty accurate, Can I simply leave the slits as they are? or will they gradually tear and enlarge in the slipstream? Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Scott Knowlton " <flyingscott_k(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
Douwe, I can't comment on the actual stress or hardship on the rudder assembly or tailwheel that would result from having no springs but I can speak as a tailwheel instructor about their importance. With such a long moment between main landing gear and the tailwheel of a conventional gear airplane you really don't "steer" a tailwheel aircraft as much as "nudge" the tail in the opposite direction you want the nose of the aircraft to point. That is accomplished by a series of gentle rudder peddal "jabs" in the direction you want the nose to go accompanied by some smaller jabs in the opposite direction to keep the aircraft from veering too much toward your intended course. A check and balance if you will (not meant to insult anyone on the list who has a bunch of tailwheel experience but rather to help the prolific builders who haven't flown much with the little wheel on the back). The springs do a lot to dampen a pilot's nudges both in the direction they want to go as well as their offsetting nudges in the opposite. A tailwheel that was hard cabled without springs may allow ease of taxiing at very slow speeds but would be very difficult to use on a take off or landing rollout where the "dance" of light jabs left and right are required. The amplitude of these control inputs and their frequency change with increasing or descreasing ground speed making it just about humanly impossible for a pilot to keep up with direct cable linkages. Compare it to a bounce recovery where an inexperienced student attempts to recover by pushing forward on the stick only to make his or her problems worse by chasing the resulting porpose. I also think you would probably encounter greater wear in your tailwheel tire and assembly if it were not dampened with springs which would necessitate a bigger and more robust tailwheel negating any weight benefits of having no springs. My long winded opinion only. Scott Knowlton -----Original Message----- From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 12:24:54 Subject: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs One more thing... There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use springs, just straight cables? Obviously, bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder bar, which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs, and you'd save a few ounces. In you flyer's experiences, how bad can the bumps and jerks be from the tailwheel, and what do you think of this idea? Thanks Douwe, ps: finished windscreens, now doing leather cockpit coaming, which is very rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing going!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Douwe=2C All the sonex guys use a direct linkage. No springs. This way you don't ne ed differential braking. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > From: douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs > Date: Wed=2C 7 Oct 2009 08:24:54 -0400 > thlink.net> > > One more thing... > > There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel > springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use > springs=2C just straight cables? > > Obviously=2C bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder b ar=2C > which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of > some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs=2C and yo u'd > save a few ounces. > > In you flyer's experiences=2C how bad can the bumps and jerks be from the > tailwheel=2C and what do you think of this idea? > > Thanks > > Douwe=2C > > ps: finished windscreens=2C now doing leather cockpit coaming=2C which is very > rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing going!! > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: control cable exit holes
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Need to be reinforced with something. leather plastic etc. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > From: douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cable exit holes > Date: Wed=2C 7 Oct 2009 08:18:58 -0400 > thlink.net> > > I am looking at where my control cables exit the fuselage and run back to > the "flippers". Most people seem to glue some leather patches over them =2C > but I was wondering... > > The slits I made in the fuse covering were pretty accurate=2C Can I simpl y > leave the slits as they are? or will they gradually tear and enlarge in t he > slipstream? > > Douwe > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: tailwheel springs
I would recomend springs for tailwheel instalations.=C2- I believe that i t will greatly prolong the life of the rudder bar bushing (pivot point), an d the tailwheel cables.=C2-=C2- I have never had any problem with being out of control due to the springs stretching.=C2- A second reason for sp rings would be the fact that the distance from the rudder bar to the steeri ng arm will change ever so slightly when the t/w spring compresses (at leas t in theory) , this could possibly snap a tailwheel cable in the event of a hard landing.=C2- If anything I think a properly tensioned spring would improve ground handling. =C2- Remember: there is no such thing as squirlly airplanes, just squirlly pilot s, Shad --- On Wed, 10/7/09, Doug Dever wrote: From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 10:20 AM Douwe, All the sonex guys use a direct linkage. No springs.=C2- This way you don 't need differential braking. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio =C2- > From: douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 08:24:54 -0400 > thlink.net> > > One more thing... > > There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel > springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use > springs, just straight cables? > > Obviously, bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder bar , > which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of > some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs, and you' d > save a few ounces. > > In you flyer's experiences, how bad can the bumps and jerks be from the > tailwheel, and what do you think of this idea? > > Thanks > > Douwe, > > ps: finished windscreens, now doing leather cockpit coaming, which is ver y > rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing going!! > >====================== &g=========== > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=99s powerful SP target='_new' >Sign up now. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Subject: Re: control cable exit holes
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Douwe, The holes will most likely enlarge and tatter over time, with the cables moving back and forth through the holes , and vibrating around a bit in the slipstream. The leather patches, or whatever reinforcement you choose, can be installed at any time however, so if you want to leave them off and see how things wear I wouldn't think there would be any harm in that. Make the holes a preflight item, and if they start to enlarge then you know you need to install the patches. Ryan On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:18 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote: > douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> > > I am looking at where my control cables exit the fuselage and run back to > the "flippers". Most people seem to glue some leather patches over them, > but I was wondering... > > The slits I made in the fuse covering were pretty accurate, Can I simply > leave the slits as they are? or will they gradually tear and enlarge in > the > slipstream? > > Douwe > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: Mike Volckmann <mike_cfi(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: translating Jorge's post- #1
Jorge,=0A=0AI appreciate your Spanish posts.- I am working on learning- Spanish and-your posts are more interesting that the stuff we work on in class.=0A-Mike Volckmann =0A=0A=0AGod is great, Beer is good, People are Crazy. Billy Currington =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF rom: jorge lizarraga =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics. com=0ASent: Tue, October 6, 2009 10:53:23 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: translating Jorge's post- #1=0A=0A=0Athese post is for javier in maxico co rse in spanis Im bery happi to tras late to any, one if you like guys;..... .;ok es toy en california javier deje guadalajara asia 14 anos atras en don de empese a construir- una replica 7/8 scala del nieupor- bebe aqui es tou ya con un 38% de mi pieten pol terminado recientemente estos dias acabe toda mi seccion de cola en que parte de mexico estas si es guadalajara te puedo con tactar con algunos pilotos y home builders saludos desde usa, jor ge from hanford=0A=0A--- On Mon, 10/5/09, Javier Cruz To: pietenpol-list@matronic s.com=0A>Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 5:49 PM=0A>=0A>=0A>--> Pietenpol-Li st message posted by: "Javier Cruz" =0A>=0A>Hi dear P iets,- well, after to let the piet for almost two years now i have time f or work on it, i will clean all (to many dust) ,finish the fuel tank and in stall it...=0A>=0A>Jorge=0A>Donde estas ubicado?- yo estoy en la Ciudad d e Mexico, tengo ya algunos a=F1os trabajando en mi Pietenpol...=0A>=0A>Salu dos=0A>Javier Cruz=0A>=0A>pd. good translation Osconics.com/Navigator?Piete npol-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.nbsp; - - - - - - - - - -Matt matronics.com/contribution" ========0A ================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Scott=2C Not to be contradictory. (you have more tg time than me.) But=2C to bring up the point that all of the Sonex TW guys use direct (no spring) steering and virtually none have differential braking. With several hundred flying =2C everyone says it works great and is the easiest taildragger to fly. No w I do know that there will be days that nothing will help except for the w heel on the other end. I landed a C210 once in a 38kt 80deg xwind and I'm glad I was flying a 210 and not a 180. There were days we counld not even taxi the 180 as the wind would spin it around with both brakes locked! But I digress. My question is would you really need the jabs on the rudder if the tw was direct steer? negating=2C of course=2C the senario I just desc ribed Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > From: flyingscott_k(at)hotmail.com > To: douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net=3B pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wed=2C 7 Oct 2009 12:48:07 +0000 > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs > tmail.com> > > Douwe=2C > > I can't comment on the actual stress or hardship on the rudder assembly o r tailwheel that would result from having no springs but I can speak as a t ailwheel instructor about their importance. > > With such a long moment between main landing gear and the tailwheel of a conventional gear airplane you really don't "steer" a tailwheel aircraft as much as "nudge" the tail in the opposite direction you want the nose of th e aircraft to point. That is accomplished by a series of gentle rudder pedd al "jabs" in the direction you want the nose to go accompanied by some smal ler jabs in the opposite direction to keep the aircraft from veering too mu ch toward your intended course. A check and balance if you will (not meant to insult anyone on the list who has a bunch of tailwheel experience but ra ther to help the prolific builders who haven't flown much with the little w heel on the back). > > The springs do a lot to dampen a pilot's nudges both in the direction the y want to go as well as their offsetting nudges in the opposite. A tailwhee l that was hard cabled without springs may allow ease of taxiing at very sl ow speeds but would be very difficult to use on a take off or landing rollo ut where the "dance" of light jabs left and right are required. The amplitu de of these control inputs and their frequency change with increasing or de screasing ground speed making it just about humanly impossible for a pilot to keep up with direct cable linkages. Compare it to a bounce recovery wher e an inexperienced student attempts to recover by pushing forward on the st ick only to make his or her problems worse by chasing the resulting porpose . > I also think you would probably encounter greater wear in your tailwheel tire and assembly if it were not dampened with springs which would necessit ate a bigger and more robust tailwheel negating any weight benefits of havi ng no springs. My long winded opinion only. > Scott Knowlton > > -----Original Message----- > From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> > Date: Wed=2C 7 Oct 2009 12:24:54 > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs > thlink.net> > > One more thing... > > There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel > springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use > springs=2C just straight cables? > > Obviously=2C bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder b ar=2C > which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of > some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs=2C and yo u'd > save a few ounces. > > In you flyer's experiences=2C how bad can the bumps and jerks be from the > tailwheel=2C and what do you think of this idea? > > Thanks > > Douwe=2C > > ps: finished windscreens=2C now doing leather cockpit coaming=2C which is very > rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing going!! > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Piets near my travels
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: Ken Howe <ken@cooper-mtn.com>
John, I'm on the west side of Portland between Beaverton and Tigard. Where in the PDX area will you be? I wouldn't have much to show you on my project - a rib jig and a couple ribs. Have you made contact with anyone else in this area? --Ken arriving Portland Oregon Monday 10/12 leaving 10/14 evening for Sacramento Ca for one 2 nights traveling by car to and from Stockton Ca then out on Friday morning Sacramento to Baltimore. I would enjoy visiting Piets in process building and or flying Piets for meet greet photos and brew, if anyone is interested please advise. Thanks John Junior Ambassador and Special Assistant to Ambassador and Secretary of Piet, Jim Markle In a message dated 10/5/2009 3:44:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Markle I'm in Livermore this week....any Piets in the area? I was hoping to get up to see the gang in the Sacramento area but may not have time for that....actually working a couple blocks from the Livermore Municipal Airport...looks like a few interesting airplanes there. Anyway, anyone in the area? Jim ========================= Use the ties Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================ - List Contribution Web Site sp; ================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 07, 2009
I vote for springs. I've even gotten advice to go a step further and not run the tailwheel steering cables taut, but to leave them a little loose or slack in order to provide just a bit less reaction while dancing on the rudder pedals. The springs provide some damping of the dance and a lower tension (or slack) in the cables would also remove some of the instant reaction. When I first taxied 41CC I was amazed at how sensitive it was to steering inputs on the concrete apron, and how precisely I could steer it around the ramp without use of the brakes. After actually flying it a while, I've come to wish that I could decouple the tailwheel from the rudder a bit more and I may try some softer springs or maybe back off of the cable tension a bit. Sometimes the nose veers a bit due to the tailwheel response when you only meant to use rudder. Hard to explain until you go fly and taxi your airplane, but in any case I'd stay with the springs for sure. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
From: Ken Chambers <ken.riffic(at)gmail.com>
Has anyone thought of putting the springs somewhere closer to the rudder bar? Might make weight and balance a little easier, with a couple pounds moved forward. I haven't got to the point of routing cables so I have no idea if there's any room for them inside the fuselage. On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > I vote for springs. I've even gotten advice to go a step > further and not run the tailwheel steering cables taut, > but to leave them a little loose or slack in order to > provide just a bit less reaction while dancing on the > rudder pedals. The springs provide some damping of the > dance and a lower tension (or slack) in the cables would > also remove some of the instant reaction. > > When I first taxied 41CC I was amazed at how sensitive it > was to steering inputs on the concrete apron, and how > precisely I could steer it around the ramp without use of > the brakes. After actually flying it a while, I've come > to wish that I could decouple the tailwheel from the > rudder a bit more and I may try some softer springs or > maybe back off of the cable tension a bit. Sometimes the > nose veers a bit due to the tailwheel response when > you only meant to use rudder. Hard to explain until you > go fly and taxi your airplane, but in any case I'd stay > with the springs for sure. > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > -- Ken Chambers 512-796-1798 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Has anybody thought about not having springs? Just had to go there=3B-) Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio Date: Wed=2C 7 Oct 2009 11:18:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs From: ken.riffic(at)gmail.com Has anyone thought of putting the springs somewhere closer to the rudder ba r? Might make weight and balance a little easier=2C with a couple pounds moved forward. I haven't got to the point of routing cables so I have no idea if there's a ny room for them inside the fuselage. On Wed=2C Oct 7=2C 2009 at 10:41 AM=2C Oscar Zuniga wrote: I vote for springs. I've even gotten advice to go a step further and not run the tailwheel steering cables taut=2C but to leave them a little loose or slack in order to provide just a bit less reaction while dancing on the rudder pedals. The springs provide some damping of the dance and a lower tension (or slack) in the cables would also remove some of the instant reaction. When I first taxied 41CC I was amazed at how sensitive it was to steering inputs on the concrete apron=2C and how precisely I could steer it around the ramp without use of the brakes. After actually flying it a while=2C I've come to wish that I could decouple the tailwheel from the rudder a bit more and I may try some softer springs or maybe back off of the cable tension a bit. Sometimes the nose veers a bit due to the tailwheel response when you only meant to use rudder. Hard to explain until you go fly and taxi your airplane=2C but in any case I'd stay with the springs for sure. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com le=2C List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Ken Chambers 512-796-1798 =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: Ross Alexander <karbath1(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams...
Thank you for the reply....I will give it a try!~ Ross=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____ ____________________________=0AFrom: Gene & Tammy <zharvey@bentoncountycabl e.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, October 6, 2009 8:01 :26 PM=0ASubject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstre ams...=0A=0A =0ARoss, I just took off the cap (I used a plastic =0Acanniste r) and slipped the cannister over the mic, with the small hole I drilled =0Ain line with the mic. I was then able to slip a foam mic cover over the =0Acannister. Everyone reported good audio. =0AI should have mentioned t hat I used coflex (stuff =0Athat is used by nurses to secure a bandage), to wrap the mic in before I put the =0Acannister on. You can buy it at any d rug store. The colfax keep the =0Acannister from slipping off.=0AGene=0A =0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: Ross Alexander =0A>To: pietenpol- list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:43 =0A> PM=0A>Subj ect: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing =0A> at Airports with Gulfstreams... =0A>=0A>=0A>Can you describe this a little further? How did you attach =0A> the cannister to the mike?=0A>=0A>Ross =0A> in Orangeville, Ontario, Canada 85 hp Piet=0A>=0A>=0A________________________________=0A From: Gene & Tammy =0A>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.co m=0A>Sent: Sunday, October 4, 2009 7:29:10 =0A> PM=0A>Subject: Re: Re: =0A > Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams...=0A>=0A> > =0A>Sp eaking of radios.....A while back, when I was =0A> having problems being u nderstood on the radio because of all the wind noise, =0A> someone on this list suggested I put a 35mm film canister, with a small hole, =0A> over t he mike. I'm here to tell you it works great! Thanks to whom =0A> ever p assed on that info to me.=0A>Gene =0A>N502R =0A> =0A>httt; http://www.matr onics.com/contrib================0A>=0A>=0A> =0A________________________________=0A The new Internet Explorer=AE 8 - Fas ter, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for =0A> Free! =0A>=0A >=0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0A>href="http://forums.matronics.c om">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/contrib ution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A________________________________=0A > =============0A=0A=0A ________________________ __________________________________________=0ABe smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Ma il. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jack(at)textors.com
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 07, 2009
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 07, 2009
That probably translates into several inches of travel at the wheels, plus you can add the compression of the spring to that 1 3/4". -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266965#266965 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Never mind... I see that 1 3/4" IS the amount of compression on the spring. I still wonder how much travel that translates to... surely much more than 1 3/4". -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266966#266966 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
If you were to put the springs in front, they would be right next to your ankles, and you could get pinched. We are talking ounces here, not pounds. The springs are usually attached to the cables by a short piece of chain, to allow for adjustments. This is easily done at the rear of the airplane. Ben Ken Chambers wrote: > > Has anyone thought of putting the springs somewhere closer to the > rudder bar? > > Might make weight and balance a little easier, with a couple pounds > moved forward. > > I haven't got to the point of routing cables so I have no idea if > there's any room for them inside the fuselage. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: control cable exit holes
Douwe, Indeed, the holes will rip and tatter. See the following: http://5n429glenoak.homelinux.net/gallery/N8031/img_2580 and a few pictures onward from there... Which leads to my follow-on question since I have no fabric experience yet - how does one glue on leather reinforcment patches? Superglue? Epoxy? How does one prepare the fabric? Thanks, Dan Ryan Mueller wrote: > Douwe, > > The holes will most likely enlarge and tatter over time, with the > cables moving back and forth through the holes , and vibrating around a > bit in the slipstream. The leather patches, or whatever reinforcement > you choose, can be installed at any time however, so if you want to > leave them off and see how things wear I wouldn't think there would be > any harm in that. Make the holes a preflight item, and if they start to > enlarge then you know you need to install the patches. > > Ryan > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:18 AM, Douwe Blumberg > > wrote: > > > > > I am looking at where my control cables exit the fuselage and run > back to > the "flippers". Most people seem to glue some leather patches over > them, > but I was wondering... > > The slits I made in the fuse covering were pretty accurate, Can I > simply > leave the slits as they are? or will they gradually tear and > enlarge in the > slipstream? > > Douwe -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
When I was learning to fly my Baby Ace, I intentionally loosened the cables/springs to the tailwheel to make it more forgiving on landing. If you are landing in any type of cross-wind the rudder will most likely be deflected to one side as you touch down, and if the wheel had no slack or springs it would tend to throw you in the weeds, and then you really get to dance on the rudder pedals. Just my $.02 Ben Charvet Douwe Blumberg wrote: > > One more thing... > > There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel > springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use > springs, just straight cables? > > Obviously, bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder bar, > which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of > some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs, and you'd > save a few ounces. > > In you flyer's experiences, how bad can the bumps and jerks be from the > tailwheel, and what do you think of this idea? > > Thanks > > Douwe, > > ps: finished windscreens, now doing leather cockpit coaming, which is very > rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing going!! > > > _ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 07, 2009
I disagree=2C but my personal experience is only with an ultralight with di rect steering. No problems. There are=2C however several hundred Sonexs f lying with direct steering. Mine will be direct steer=2C but hey=2C I only have a couple hundred hrs t g time. Most of it ultralight. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Date: Wed=2C 7 Oct 2009 15:23:09 -0400 > From: bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs > > > > When I was learning to fly my Baby Ace=2C I intentionally loosened the > cables/springs to the tailwheel to make it more forgiving on landing. > If you are landing in any type of cross-wind the rudder will most likely > be deflected to one side as you touch down=2C and if the wheel had no > slack or springs it would tend to throw you in the weeds=2C and then you > really get to dance on the rudder pedals. Just my $.02 > > Ben Charvet > > Douwe Blumberg wrote: arthlink.net> > > > > One more thing... > > > > There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel > > springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use > > springs=2C just straight cables? > > > > Obviously=2C bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder bar=2C > > which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of > > some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs=2C and you'd > > save a few ounces. > > > > In you flyer's experiences=2C how bad can the bumps and jerks be from t he > > tailwheel=2C and what do you think of this idea? > > > > Thanks > > > > Douwe=2C > > > > ps: finished windscreens=2C now doing leather cockpit coaming=2C which is very > > rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing going!! > > > > > > _ > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: control cable exit holes
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Dan; I salvaged a discarded leather shoe, cut it into patches with pinking shears, and attached them to the fabric with Weldwood Contact Cement after cleaning the fabric with soap and water. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Jack, The required length of the slot is dependant on the amount of travel you will want/need. The amount of travel you will actually get is dependant on the weight of the plane, how hard you "land" and the specifics of the actual springs you use. That's a lot of variables! The example provided in Tony's book is likely for a specific plane (although it could easily apply to many of a similar size/configuration). It may, or may not apply to the Pietenpol. To make life easier, since we're talking about Pietenpols, why don't we refer to a couple of drawings that apply specifically to Pietenpols. The first is a drawing that came from the old BPA Newsletters, and was drawn in 1984 by Frank Pavliga Sr, I believe. In this drawing, the slot is 2 3/4" long. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_s p ring.jpg&PhotoID 09 The second drawing is a little more recent (2005), and was done by Hans van der Voort, as built on his award-winning Piet. In this arrangement, the slot is 2 1/2" long. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=75 So it looks like the slot probably should be longer for use on the Piet. I think either of these arrangements will work well for the Piet. At least I do not recall ever reading that anyone built to either design and was not satisfied with the performance. Personally, I'm going with the wooden Jenny-style gear, so I'll never know first hand how they perform, but if I was building the split gear, I'd go with springs rather than bungees. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jack(at)textors.com Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear All, Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does that sound like enough travel? Thanks, Jack www.textors.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Bill, As usual, fantastic information, thanks. I too was going with the straight (do you want mine) axle but feel the split will be better for rough fields. Sorry Mike, Jack, Bill, ET AL. Not being an Engineer and not too bright.I must not fully understand the operation of the strut. It seems to me no matter the weight, bounce or spring tension, It looks like the travel will be limited the slot length. Am I messed up? Thanks! Jack www.textors.com _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:04 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear Jack, The required length of the slot is dependant on the amount of travel you will want/need. The amount of travel you will actually get is dependant on the weight of the plane, how hard you "land" and the specifics of the actual springs you use. That's a lot of variables! The example provided in Tony's book is likely for a specific plane (although it could easily apply to many of a similar size/configuration). It may, or may not apply to the Pietenpol. To make life easier, since we're talking about Pietenpols, why don't we refer to a couple of drawings that apply specifically to Pietenpols. The first is a drawing that came from the old BPA Newsletters, and was drawn in 1984 by Frank Pavliga Sr, I believe. In this drawing, the slot is 2 3/4" long. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_spring .jpg <http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_sprin g.jpg&PhotoID 09> &PhotoID 09 The second drawing is a little more recent (2005), and was done by Hans van der Voort, as built on his award-winning Piet. In this arrangement, the slot is 2 1/2" long. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=75 So it looks like the slot probably should be longer for use on the Piet. I think either of these arrangements will work well for the Piet. At least I do not recall ever reading that anyone built to either design and was not satisfied with the performance. Personally, I'm going with the wooden Jenny-style gear, so I'll never know first hand how they perform, but if I was building the split gear, I'd go with springs rather than bungees. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jack(at)textors.com Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear All, Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does that sound like enough travel? Thanks, Jack www.textors.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2009
I guess you have probably thought of it-but why don't you just loose assemble it without the spring and move it to the ends of the slot and measure it? I'm sure you can purchase die springs in different lengths as well as many strenghts Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267003#267003 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Tunnicliffe" <zk-owl(at)CLEAR.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Perhaps the length of travel is limited by the spring becoming coil bound, and the slot length should suit the springs used. Regards Mike T. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: Ken Howe <ken@cooper-mtn.com>
Some basic trig should give you the answer. Take another look at the geometry of the gear. The wheel travel up and down is not in-line with the telescoping tubes and the spring. As the the main gear leg pivots up, around the fuselage attach point, the shock tubes cause the spring to compress. It's not a 1-1 relationship because of the different lengths of the gear leg and spring leg and the angles between. Actually if I was at that stage of my project I'd probably draw it out in scale on a sheet of paper with my trusty drafting tools. --Ken the length of travel is limited by the spring becoming coil bound, and the slot length should suit the springs used. Regards Mike T. color: #000000; font-size: x-small;"> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
Jack I made my shock struts per Bill Reweys drawing for spring struts. The slot is 2.75" long on my struts. I have not flown them yet but with 6" springs this seems like a better slot length. Get the packet of Pietenpol tips and hints direct from Bill. Jim B. Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Oct 7, 2009 11:44:15 AM, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com wrote: All, Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does that sound like enough travel? Thanks, Jack www.textors.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
I may be off on this, probably am, but it seems to me that the space between the spring spirals add up to the entire distance that the spring can compress. If so, then that's how long the slot needs to be, right? > > >Jack I made my shock struts per Bill Reweys drawing for spring >struts. The slot is 2.75" long on my struts. I have not flown them >yet but with 6" springs this seems like a better slot length. Get >the packet of Pietenpol tips and hints direct from Bill. >Jim B. > >Jim Boyer >Santa Rosa, CA >Pietenpol builder with Corvair > >Oct 7, 2009 11:44:15 AM, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com wrote: > >All, >Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo >is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does >that sound like enough travel? >Thanks, >Jack >www.textors.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: control cable exit holes
Construction contact cement, Ply-o-bond, etc. I think lots of glues will work. > > >Which leads to my follow-on question since I have no fabric >experience yet - how does one glue on leather reinforcment patches? >Superglue? Epoxy? How does one prepare the fabric? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Very close, Jeff. You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the spring. Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able to move the full compression of the spring. That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jeff Boatright Sent: Wed 07/10/2009 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear I may be off on this, probably am, but it seems to me that the space between the spring spirals add up to the entire distance that the spring can compress. If so, then that's how long the slot needs to be, right? > > >Jack I made my shock struts per Bill Reweys drawing for spring >struts. The slot is 2.75" long on my struts. I have not flown them >yet but with 6" springs this seems like a better slot length. Get >the packet of Pietenpol tips and hints direct from Bill. >Jim B. > >Jim Boyer >Santa Rosa, CA >Pietenpol builder with Corvair > >Oct 7, 2009 11:44:15 AM, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com wrote: > >All, >Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo >is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does >that sound like enough travel? >Thanks, >Jack >www.textors.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: santiago morete <moretesantiago(at)yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: one/three piece wing
Dallas, We used this simple jig to make the 15:1-scarf.- Very easy, fast and ac curate. Saludos - Santiago -=0A=0A=0A Yahoo! Cocina=0A=0AEncontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo ! Cocina.=0A=0A=0Ahttp://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant(at)msn.com>
Subject: center section plywood
Date: Oct 07, 2009
I'm trying to figure out if the center section ply is supposed to be even w ith the bottom of the ribs - or offset (into the center section) by 1/8"? The plans make it look like there's an offset but I can't understand why th is would be desired. Tom B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: control cable exit holes
Oscar, Jeff, That's it? Jeez, that's just too easy! Off to Joann Fabrics I go to get some leather and contact cement. Thanks! Dan Jeff Boatright wrote: > > Construction contact cement, Ply-o-bond, etc. I think lots of glues will > work. > >> >> >> Which leads to my follow-on question since I have no fabric experience >> yet - how does one glue on leather reinforcment patches? Superglue? >> Epoxy? How does one prepare the fabric? > > > > > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 07, 2009
Yep. When in doubt draw it out. Clif "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." ~ Samuel Johnson . Actually if I was at that stage of my project I'd probably draw it out in scale on a sheet of paper with my trusty drafting tools. --Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: jorge lizarraga <flightwood(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 3-piece wing fairings
these is made by wood- what cain is that like to now for used in my proye ct thanks --- On Tue, 10/6/09, TOPGUN wrote: From: TOPGUN <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 3-piece wing fairings Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 11:39 AM Thanks, i can't believe i missed that one. Does anyone know what color of y ellow that is? Catdesigns wrote: > http://westcoastpiet.com/yesterday_wings.htm > > > Chris > Sacramento, CA > WestCoastPiet.com > > > --- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266840#266840 le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: thanks all
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Thank you all for your advice, we really have a great resource of knowledge with this group. Should probably use springs, but I was planning on putting them behind the pilot seat. I will use split bolts to affix the tailwheel cable to the rudder cable, and after about eight inches or so, will splice in the springs so they don't interfere with the rudder cable itself. A nice benefit of this (stolen from Larry Williams) is that the split bolts are adjusted to become your rudder stops. They simply hit the bulkhead and stop the rudder travel. I think Larry said he installed a little plywood disk loosely there. A rubber doughnut would work too. One could also precut some cloth patches to cover the cable exit holes, pink them, spray them and glue them on using any number of glues. This would save a few grams by the tail, and be inconspicuous. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: straight axle bungees
Date: Oct 08, 2009
The other day I came across some photos of WWI german airplanes where the landing gear bungees had been replaced with long coil springs wrapped around the axle in a similar manner. I am assuming this expedient was due to their rubber shortage, but it set me thinking... Though heavier, I wonder if it would work. Over the years, I've heard of two incidents with straight axle gears due to broken bungees. Stainless steel springs can be had which would virtually eliminate worry over aging bungees and the headache of replacing them every so often. I wonder how much heavier it would be. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: one/three piece wing
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Santiago, my hat's off to you. That is the best and simplest spar splice jig I have ever seen. Can't get any better. Dan H -----Original Message----- From: santiago morete <moretesantiago(at)yahoo.com.ar> Sent: Wed, Oct 7, 2009 10:00 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: one/three piece wing Dallas, We used this simple jig to make the 15:1?scarf.? Very easy, fast and accurate. Saludos ? Santiago ? Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina. http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Thanks so much to all, valuable input! Jack www.textors.com Very close, Jeff. You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the spring. Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able to move the full compression of the spring. That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jeff Boatright Sent: Wed 07/10/2009 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear I may be off on this, probably am, but it seems to me that the space between the spring spirals add up to the entire distance that the spring can compress. If so, then that's how long the slot needs to be, right? > > >Jack I made my shock struts per Bill Reweys drawing for spring >struts. The slot is 2.75" long on my struts. I have not flown them >yet but with 6" springs this seems like a better slot length. Get >the packet of Pietenpol tips and hints direct from Bill. >Jim B. > >Jim Boyer >Santa Rosa, CA >Pietenpol builder with Corvair > >Oct 7, 2009 11:44:15 AM, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com wrote: > >All, >Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo >is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does >that sound like enough travel? >Thanks, >Jack >www.textors.com Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 05:18:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: control cable exit holes
Date: Oct 08, 2009
if the cut is truly accurate, there is no need for any kind of patch, but only if you put a piece of fabric as a doubler at the exit point. It kind of looks better without one, and if there is no side tearing movement, it will never grow. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg<mailto:douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:18 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cable exit holes > I am looking at where my control cables exit the fuselage and run back to the "flippers". Most people seem to glue some leather patches over them, but I was wondering... The slits I made in the fuse covering were pretty accurate, Can I simply leave the slits as they are? or will they gradually tear and enlarge in the slipstream? Douwe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: thanks all
Douwe, Douwe Blumberg wrote: > One could also precut some cloth patches to cover the cable exit holes, pink > them, spray them and glue them on using any number of glues. This would > save a few grams by the tail, and be inconspicuous. Note in the pictures that fabric patches is what was done on Le Turtle N8031 and the fabric still ripped and frayed. Dan PS, yes La Tortue would be the proper French translation - I'm still working on the name. ;-) -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 08, 2009
I think the springs also help eliminate shimmying, although logically you would think it would increase it. Just think, ALL Cubs, Champs, Taylorcrafts, Cessnas, etc, etc, etc use them. There MUST be a good reason. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg<mailto:douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs > One more thing... There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use springs, just straight cables? Obviously, bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder bar, which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs, and you'd save a few ounces. In you flyer's experiences, how bad can the bumps and jerks be from the tailwheel, and what do you think of this idea? Thanks Douwe, ps: finished windscreens, now doing leather cockpit coaming, which is very rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing going!! http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: hickory wood
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Jorge; I think hickory wood is what is commonly used foraxe handles. You can also use ash if you are making cabane struts from wood. You could probably also use oak. Speaking of hickory axe handles, and going back to earlier posts about making the wing tip bows out of something durable to resist groundloop scrapes, you could also install axe handle outriggers like the tri-wing Fokker airplanes had, to do the same thing. Sort of like training wheels ;o) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: control cable exit holes
Date: Oct 08, 2009
PolyTak -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Yocum Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: control cable exit holes Douwe, Indeed, the holes will rip and tatter. See the following: http://5n429glenoak.homelinux.net/gallery/N8031/img_2580 and a few pictures onward from there... Which leads to my follow-on question since I have no fabric experience yet - how does one glue on leather reinforcment patches? Superglue? Epoxy? How does one prepare the fabric? Thanks, Dan Ryan Mueller wrote: > Douwe, > > The holes will most likely enlarge and tatter over time, with the > cables moving back and forth through the holes , and vibrating around a > bit in the slipstream. The leather patches, or whatever reinforcement > you choose, can be installed at any time however, so if you want to > leave them off and see how things wear I wouldn't think there would be > any harm in that. Make the holes a preflight item, and if they start to > enlarge then you know you need to install the patches. > > Ryan > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:18 AM, Douwe Blumberg > > wrote: > > > > > I am looking at where my control cables exit the fuselage and run > back to > the "flippers". Most people seem to glue some leather patches over > them, > but I was wondering... > > The slits I made in the fuse covering were pretty accurate, Can I > simply > leave the slits as they are? or will they gradually tear and > enlarge in the > slipstream? > > Douwe -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: straight axle bungees
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Douwe, Do you mean the springs were used as bungees? Long springs wrapped in the same manner as bungees? I would imagine that set-up would have its own bunch of problems, even more troublesome than the rubber bungees. I think the springs would become entangled as they were stretched, side-by-side, and jostled around, ending up with a tangled mess. And springs break too - not just bungees. Do you have one of those photos to share? Just curious as to what it looked like. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 5:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: straight axle bungees --> The other day I came across some photos of WWI german airplanes where the landing gear bungees had been replaced with long coil springs wrapped around the axle in a similar manner. I am assuming this expedient was due to their rubber shortage, but it set me thinking... Though heavier, I wonder if it would work. Over the years, I've heard of two incidents with straight axle gears due to broken bungees. Stainless steel springs can be had which would virtually eliminate worry over aging bungees and the headache of replacing them every so often. I wonder how much heavier it would be. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Gene=2C There must be a good reason you can't put full fuel=2C pax and baggage in m ost cert. aircraft either. I can't figure it out. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio From: generambo(at)msn.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs Date: Thu=2C 8 Oct 2009 08:11:22 -0400 I think the springs also help eliminate shimmying=2C although logically you would think it would increase it. Just think=2C ALL Cubs=2C Champs=2C Tay lorcrafts=2C Cessnas=2C etc=2C etc=2C etc use them. There MUST be a good r eason. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg Sent: Wednesday=2C October 07=2C 2009 8:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs link.net> One more thing... There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use springs=2C just straight cables? Obviously=2C bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder bar =2C which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs=2C and you' d save a few ounces. In you flyer's experiences=2C how bad can the bumps and jerks be from the tailwheel=2C and what do you think of this idea? Thanks Douwe=2C ps: finished windscreens=2C now doing leather cockpit coaming=2C which is v ery rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing nbsp=3B Features Chat=2C http://w ww.matnbsp=3B via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p=3B generous bsp=3B title=http://www.matroni cs.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://w ww.matronics.com/c================ =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Spring Gear
Bill, Yep, that's right. Of course, in my case, after a few landings a less-than-minimal slot will have been wallered out... =-O Jeff >Very close, Jeff. >You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the spring. >Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able >to move the full compression of the spring. >That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be. > >Bill C. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jeff Boatright >Sent: Wed 07/10/2009 9:24 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear > > >I may be off on this, probably am, but it seems to me that the space >between the spring spirals add up to the entire distance that the >spring can compress. If so, then that's how long the slot needs to >be, right? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JERRY GROGAN" <jerry(at)SKYCLASSIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Jack I think I have a set of the spring gear here at the shop, done you could look at. I would need to dig a little but we have one made for the Smith Miniplane. And it can only traval as much as the slot is long. But that is all the spring can traval anyway. Jerry Sky Classic Aircraft ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 6:14 AM Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear > > Thanks so much to all, valuable input! > Jack > www.textors.com > > > Very close, Jeff. > You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the > spring. > Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able to > move > the full compression of the spring. > That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be. > > Bill C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jeff > Boatright > Sent: Wed 07/10/2009 9:24 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear > > > I may be off on this, probably am, but it seems to me that the space > between the spring spirals add up to the entire distance that the > spring can compress. If so, then that's how long the slot needs to > be, right? > >> >> >>Jack I made my shock struts per Bill Reweys drawing for spring >>struts. The slot is 2.75" long on my struts. I have not flown them >>yet but with 6" springs this seems like a better slot length. Get >>the packet of Pietenpol tips and hints direct from Bill. >>Jim B. >> >>Jim Boyer >>Santa Rosa, CA >>Pietenpol builder with Corvair >> >>Oct 7, 2009 11:44:15 AM, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com wrote: >> >>All, >>Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo >>is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does >>that sound like enough travel? >>Thanks, >>Jack >>www.textors.com > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 05:18:00 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: hickory wood
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
For the loads imposed on the cabane struts (only about 50 pounds or so, each), ALMOST any type of wood would likely be sufficient. I wrote the word "almost" in caps to avoid having anyone following up with wiseguy suggestions like using spalted burls for the cabanes (well, that's what I would probably do anyway). Cabane struts made of Spruce can handle the loads - provided an adequate cross-section is used, and the connection details are also properly thought out. Actually, the connection details are likely more important than the species of wood used. Substituting wood cabanes for the streamline steel shown in the plans is a structural change, so of course, anyone proposing making a change like this should either do the calculations themselves (if they are qualified), or have them done by someone who is qualified. Don't mess with it if you don't know what you're doing. I don't have the info at my fingertips, but as I recall, if made of 4130, the cabanes could be as small as (maybe) 1/2" diameter tube (?) to carry the loads imposed on them. But they would look stupid. Visually they would not appear to be correct. Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Not to be a wiseguy, but that's no coincidence. The slot length would be by design - determined by the spring travel. Making the slot length to allow the crossbolt travel to be equal to, or "slightly" longer than the distance the spring will travel is okay. Making the slot length to allow the crossbolt travel to be less than the distance the spring will travel is not okay. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JERRY GROGAN Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 9:27 AM Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear --> ... And it can only traval as much as the slot is long. But that is all the spring can traval anyway. Jerry Sky Classic Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: control cable exit holes
Anothe methood is to sew the leather to a piece of fabric, then glue the fa bric to the fabric, then it wont peel off with age due to drying out or shr inkage of the leather.- Just make a teardrop shaped leather exit patch, a nd then make a fabric patch that is 1 inch bigger all the way around the pe rimeter, then stich the leather to the fabric, and then glue the fabric/lea ther patch to the airplane.- I think this might stick better because fabr ic glues are best suited to glue dacron to dacron.- I will admit though m ost airplanes I see do have the leather patches just glued on.- Some I se e are peeling off some don't.- I have also seen a trick where people will laminate a piece of 1/16 plywood between the backside of the fabric, and c over the ply to make a fabric-ply-fabric sandwich for cable exits.- This seems to give the cleanest instalation, but I think the leather route looks the most time period correct for a piet. - Probably 100 other methoods of doing it, Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 07, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Yes, Jack, you're messed up. Just kidding... I can't resist when given an opportunity like that. Your thinking is not off base, really. The physical limit of the travel will be controlled by one of two things: A. the length of the slot, or B. The compressed length of the spring. Most people need to look at this landing gear arrangement for a little while to figure out exactly how it works. When you see it working, it makes sense, but looking at the drawing, it seems a bit confusing. While the configuration of the landing gear will put the diagonal strut in tension when loaded, this design uses a compression spring to absorb the load. Compression springs have two limiting dimensions. One is the free length, or unloaded length, which is the length before installing (easy to measure), with no loads imposed on it. The other is the fully compressed length, which is when there are no more gaps between the coils, and the spring can not compress any further. When this point is reached, it will not matter if the slot is any longer, because the spring will not squish any more. As an example, the spring specified in Hans' drawing has an Aircraft Spruce part number (06-13200) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/shockabsorb.php <http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/shockabsorb.php> . The other number (9-3224-36) is likely the manufacturer's part number, as these springs are called Die Springs, and are used for machinery such as punch presses. A little internet searching gives us the following catalog from the manufacturer (Danly) http://www.danly.com/PDFs/IEM-DieMaxSprings.pdf <http://www.danly.com/PDFs/IEM-DieMaxSprings.pdf> . Page 13 of the catalog has the particular spring listed, near the bottom of the page. The spring diameter is 2", the Free length is 6", and the total travel to solid is 1.78" at a load of 2593 pounds. The MINIMUM length of the slot would be this length PLUS the diameter of the cross bolt (in this case 5/16"), which comes out to just over 2". It is better to rely on the spring as the limiting factor rather than the slot length, so the slot is made a little longer than 2". If the set-up made use of an Extension spring, rather than a Compression spring, there would not really be a maximum length for the loaded spring, since in theory, one could stretch the spring out till it was just a straight piece of wire. So, in that case, the length of the slot would be the limiting factor. Exrension springs are not really manufactured to handle large loads like this, so they are not really an option for this application. Don't know if that made things clearer, or more confusing for you. Bill C. (by the way, my original plan was to build the split gear (it likely would be better for rough fields), but I just prefer the look of the old wooden gear more) ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 5:37 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear Bill, As usual, fantastic information, thanks. I too was going with the straight (do you want mine) axle but feel the split will be better for rough fields. Sorry Mike, Jack, Bill, ET AL. Not being an Engineer and not too bright...I must not fully understand the operation of the strut. It seems to me no matter the weight, bounce or spring tension, It looks like the travel will be limited the slot length. Am I messed up? Thanks! Jack www.textors.com ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:04 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear Jack, The required length of the slot is dependant on the amount of travel you will want/need. The amount of travel you will actually get is dependant on the weight of the plane, how hard you "land" and the specifics of the actual springs you use. That's a lot of variables! The example provided in Tony's book is likely for a specific plane (although it could easily apply to many of a similar size/configuration). It may, or may not apply to the Pietenpol. To make life easier, since we're talking about Pietenpols, why don't we refer to a couple of drawings that apply specifically to Pietenpols. The first is a drawing that came from the old BPA Newsletters, and was drawn in 1984 by Frank Pavliga Sr, I believe. In this drawing, the slot is 2 3/4" long. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_s p ring.jpg&PhotoID 09 The second drawing is a little more recent (2005), and was done by Hans van der Voort, as built on his award-winning Piet. In this arrangement, the slot is 2 1/2" long. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=75 So it looks like the slot probably should be longer for use on the Piet. I think either of these arrangements will work well for the Piet. At least I do not recall ever reading that anyone built to either design and was not satisfied with the performance. Personally, I'm going with the wooden Jenny-style gear, so I'll never know first hand how they perform, but if I was building the split gear, I'd go with springs rather than bungees. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jack(at)textors.com Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear All, Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does that sound like enough travel? Thanks, Jack www.textors.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat r onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 270.14.4/2417 - Release Date: 10/06/09 06:50:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lagowski Morrow" <jimdeb(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: control cable exit holes
Date: Oct 08, 2009
I used pinked edge leather patches glued to the finish painted fabric with Polytak, which is the glue used with the Poly fiber system. My patches have survived for~42 hours with no sign of coming loose--Jim Lagowski ----- Original Message ----- From: shad bell To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 12:12 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: control cable exit holes Anothe methood is to sew the leather to a piece of fabric, then glue the fabric to the fabric, then it wont peel off with age due to drying out or shrinkage of the leather. Just make a teardrop shaped leather exit patch, and then make a fabric patch that is 1 inch bigger all the way around the perimeter, then stich the leather to the fabric, and then glue the fabric/leather patch to the airplane. I think this might stick better because fabric glues are best suited to glue dacron to dacron. I will admit though most airplanes I see do have the leather patches just glued on. Some I see are peeling off some don't. I have also seen a trick where people will laminate a piece of 1/16 plywood between the backside of the fabric, and cover the ply to make a fabric-ply-fabric sandwich for cable exits. This seems to give the cleanest instalation, but I think the leather route looks the most time period correct for a piet. Probably 100 other methoods of doing it, Shad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
From: steven sadler <steven244sadler(at)gmail.com>
For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use), the manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that spring, there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4" because the spring will be fully compressed already. I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer than the spring full compression distance. Steve in Winnipeg On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:29 PM, wrote: > All, > Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo is from > Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does that sound like > enough travel? > Thanks, > Jack > www.textors.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Perry Rhoads" <prhoads61(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Vi Kaplar's Pietenpols
Date: Oct 08, 2009
List Members, Attached is a picture of Mr. Vitalis Kapler's newly completed Pietenpol. It's very well done with a Ford A engine. Vi did everything possible to keep the weight down. I think he said it weighted 610#. He hasn't flown it yet, but I'm sure he's trying to get it airworthy before the Minnesota winter sets in. Also, Mr. Kapler has sold me his Pietenpol N12939, that he has owned for 23 years. I'm proud to be the next caretaker of this fine old airplane. Perry Rhoads Carlinville,IL. N12939 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: hvandervoo(at)aol.com
I have great succes with my setup. see:http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=75 Spring is from Aircraft Spruce. BR Hans -----Original Message----- From: steven sadler <steven244sadler(at)gmail.com> Sent: Thu, Oct 8, 2009 1:18 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use), the manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that spring, there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4" because the spring will be fully compressed already. ? I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer than the spring full compression distance. ? Steve in Winnipeg On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:29 PM, wrote: All, Can you assist with a question on spring gear?? The attached photo is from Tony's book.? He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long.? Does that sound like enough travel? Thanks, Jack www.textors.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
I've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56 spring data, highlighted. The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Max compressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actually compress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible. The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_s p ring.jpg&PhotoID 09 In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt. There is a note that says the slot should be 1/4" x length to allow for full compression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56). Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will take 2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the minimum slot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would suffice. If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1 3/4" - 1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes 58.4 pounds per 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the end of the slot at a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough travel. But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the sum of the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the cross-bolt (or pin). Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steven sadler Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:18 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use), the manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that spring, there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4" because the spring will be fully compressed already. I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer than the spring full compression distance. Steve in Winnipeg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Vi Kaplar's Pietenpols
WOW! That thing is beautiful! Can't wait to see it at Brodhead. Any idea what hinges he used? :-) Sure is a beauty (both actually!)..... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: bell crank spring for trim control
-Members: - I have a unique set-up in mind for my trim system.-Please interject your comments!- - I purchase a casement window small size window-crank with a butterfly han dle-for use a my trim system in the cockpit. I can turn the crank either way and get the necessary stick pressure for trim of the horizontal stabili zer. I will post my photos and sketches when-I take on this task over the weekend. - The question I have is this: What size and strength and stretch of spring i s needed for attachment to the bell crank for tension? - My system was to use two springs attached to the rear of the bell crank one high and one low. One spring will attach to a fixed support glued in place . The other spring will be attached to a cable which will run through a pul ley and back to the cockpit. As the crank turns for adjustment, the cable w ill make stick pressure while the other spring creates return stick pressur e. Making sense? - Flame me or scratch your head..... I believe this would make for a much eas ier trim system rather then a trim tab attached to my stabilizer. - Comments and jesters welcome. - KMHeide -=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: toasting-- Jimmy Doolittle style
From: "Baldeagle" <baldeagle27(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Oct 08, 2009
There are now only 9 left I think, and the AF Museum is planning to re-pave the old runway next to the museum so they can land B-25s there next April for the Raider Reunion. They may open the Cognac then since many of the survivors are in poor health and they're worried that if they wait till the last two they won't be able to do the toast. - Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267141#267141 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Front cowling for the pietenpol
Members of the list: I am taking orders for those who are seeking a fiberglass two piece cowling as seen on the Original Pietenpol. I have duplicated the mold of that cowl ing (Thanks Dan) and will be creating more of them within the next few week s. Costs are around $250.00 plus shipping (plus the box). Please send me a message so I know the number I need to make! =C2- =C2- Here as the dimensions of the cowlings finished. =C2- The smaller cowling (bottom) is 7=9D deep X 20=9D long X 26 =9D wide at the widest point. The larger cowling (Top) is 13=9D de ep X 22=9D long X 29=9D wide. =C2- KMHeide =C2-=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: control cable exit holes
Hm. Do you guys think that I should peel off the top 1 or 2 layers of paint to get down to the Poly-Spray? The top layer (Sherwin Williams) peels off pretty readily with a good sticky tape, just like Jeff B. said it would. The original Dulux paint seems to be pretty well adhered to the fabric - at least, I haven't peeled any off, yet. Thanks, Dan Lagowski Morrow wrote: > I used pinked edge leather patches glued to the finish painted fabric > with Polytak, which is the glue used with the Poly fiber system. My > patches have survived for~42 hours with no sign of coming loose--Jim > Lagowski > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* shad bell > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > *Sent:* Thursday, October 08, 2009 12:12 PM > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: control cable exit holes > > Anothe methood is to sew the leather to a piece of fabric, then glue > the fabric to the fabric, then it wont peel off with age due to > drying out or shrinkage of the leather. Just make a teardrop shaped > leather exit patch, and then make a fabric patch that is 1 inch > bigger all the way around the perimeter, then stich the leather to > the fabric, and then glue the fabric/leather patch to the airplane. > I think this might stick better because fabric glues are best suited > to glue dacron to dacron. I will admit though most airplanes I see > do have the leather patches just glued on. Some I see are peeling > off some don't. I have also seen a trick where people will laminate > a piece of 1/16 plywood between the backside of the fabric, and > cover the ply to make a fabric-ply-fabric sandwich for cable exits. > This seems to give the cleanest instalation, but I think the leather > route looks the most time period correct for a piet. > > Probably 100 other methoods of doing it, > Shad > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > > * > > > * -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Vi Kapler's Piets
Date: Oct 08, 2009
I'm going to have to have a word with Mr. Kapler about not using so much dihedral in the wings! ;o) Both those Piets look to have as close to zero dihedral as I've ever seen... in fact, the new one looks to have ANhedral. They both look like one-piece wings, too. Looks like he has routed the tailwheel steering cables out the bottom of the tail section rather than the sides. Not sure I had ever seen that before. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Cable exits
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Dan Yocum, These photos are from Larry William's plane. This is what I did also, but I will mask-off the leather from being painted. If you strip off your paint I bet you could do this too. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Once again, thanks Bill, Hans, Steve and others, your input is invaluable! What a great resource! Jack www.textors.com I've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56 spring data, highlighted. The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Max compressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actually compress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible. The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_spring .jpg <http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_sprin g.jpg&PhotoID 09> &PhotoID 09 In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt. There is a note that says the slot should be 1/4" x length to allow for full compression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56). Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will take 2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the minimum slot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would suffice. If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1 3/4" - 1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes 58.4 pounds per 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the end of the slot at a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough travel. But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the sum of the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the cross-bolt (or pin). Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steven sadler Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:18 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use), the manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that spring, there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4" because the spring will be fully compressed already. I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer than the spring full compression distance. Steve in Winnipeg Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 18:33:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Thanks Jerry, but don't dig too deep... Jack Textor 29 SW 58th Drive Des Moines, IA 50312 www.textors.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JERRY GROGAN Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 7:27 AM Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear Jack I think I have a set of the spring gear here at the shop, done you could look at. I would need to dig a little but we have one made for the Smith Miniplane. And it can only traval as much as the slot is long. But that is all the spring can traval anyway. Jerry Sky Classic Aircraft ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 6:14 AM Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear > > Thanks so much to all, valuable input! > Jack > www.textors.com > > > Very close, Jeff. > You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the > spring. > Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able to > move > the full compression of the spring. > That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be. > > Bill C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jeff > Boatright > Sent: Wed 07/10/2009 9:24 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear > > > I may be off on this, probably am, but it seems to me that the space > between the spring spirals add up to the entire distance that the > spring can compress. If so, then that's how long the slot needs to > be, right? > >> >> >>Jack I made my shock struts per Bill Reweys drawing for spring >>struts. The slot is 2.75" long on my struts. I have not flown them >>yet but with 6" springs this seems like a better slot length. Get >>the packet of Pietenpol tips and hints direct from Bill. >>Jim B. >> >>Jim Boyer >>Santa Rosa, CA >>Pietenpol builder with Corvair >> >>Oct 7, 2009 11:44:15 AM, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com wrote: >> >>All, >>Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo >>is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does >>that sound like enough travel? >>Thanks, >>Jack >>www.textors.com > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 05:18:00 > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 18:33:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
From: steven sadler <steven244sadler(at)gmail.com>
Bill, Thanks for the information. This is an important subject for me as I intend to finish putting the springs on my landing gear this weekend. Can you take a look at my information below and see if I have missed something? I think we are looking at different springs. The Lamina H-56 and H-56L springs are shown in different Lamina catalogs and have slightly different information. The H-56 springs show a maximum allowable deflection of 1.80" (not the 1.65" I stated earlier - I misread the number) at 1.8 * 10 * 58.4 lbs/0.1 inch = 1051 lbs at full deflection. It is interesting that the H-56L spring shows a fully compressed length but the H-56 doesn't. The H-56L appears to have a bit more travel and might actually be a better choice. My arithmetic shows, for a 2.18" travel @ 58.4" per 1/10" travel: 2.18 * 10 * 58.4 = 1273 lbs at full compression. With two springs, the total available force before bottoming out will be 2500 lbs+. Either way, it looks like a hard landing in a 1200 lb airplane will probably bottom out the springs. Steve in Winnipeg On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Bill Church wrote: > I've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56 > spring data, highlighted. > The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Max > compressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actually > compress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible. > > The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing: > > > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_spring.jpg&PhotoID 09 > > In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt. > There is a note that says the slot should be *1/4" x length to allow for > full compression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56).* > Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will > take 2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the > minimum slot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would suffice. > > If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a > 1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1 3/4" - > 1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes 58.4 pounds > per 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the end of the slot > at a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough travel. > > But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the sum > of the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the cross-bolt > (or pin). > > Bill C. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *steven sadler > *Sent:* Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:18 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear > > For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use), > the manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that > spring, there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4" > because the spring will be fully compressed already. > > I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer > than the spring full compression distance. > > Steve in Winnipeg > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Subject: Javier is back !
Very good to see you back on the list Javier ! You have the attention of your neighbors now when you run you engine ? Very good ! They probably wonder why an accomplished pilot like yourself who flies jets for the government would ever want to build the lowly Pietenpol. I don't know how many guys I've heard over the years who flew heavy iron, fighter jets, airliners, and warbirds say that they were building "A Pietenpol Air Camper". There is something about them. I can't say I have any more of that gracious gift you gave me when you visited Brodhead a few years ago but it certainly gave me reason to toast a classy Pietenpol builder from Mexico ! Keep us posted on your progress and send photos when you can ! Mike C. Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Regarding the spring and the slot and the travel: don't discount the effect of pneumatic tires. If you are not using motorcycle tires, the pneumatic effect of donut tires does a lot to dampen the impact of landing even without the springs. It's hard to quantify all of those effects in combination, particularly if you operate off of grass and turf, but there are airplanes that have no springs, bungees, or other damping in their landing gear at all... just the tires. For those who use skinny motorcycle tires, there is still pneumatic damping and cushion, but it's not as much of the "Pillsbury Doughboy" or "Michelin Man" effect that donut tires have, of course. You can over-analyze this thing, guys! I say, go with the 2-1/2" or 2-3/4" long slots. If the springs bottom out before the bolts reach the ends of the slots, the effect is the same but the springs are probably better able to take a hard stop at the end of their travel than the slots and bolts are able to do the same. From there, the tires will do their part to soften the 'thump' of a solid landing. And the best advice of all is to operate your Piet off of grass as much as possible. It is absolutely heavenly, and makes all of your landings look perfect. I love the "ssss" of an early morning landing on damp, green grass! Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Subject: Re: hickory wood
From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com>
I don't want no skinny cabanes no sir, how ever I like women with skinny legs! On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bill Church wrote: > eng(at)canadianrogers.com> > > > For the loads imposed on the cabane struts (only about 50 pounds or so, > each), ALMOST any type of wood would likely be sufficient. I wrote the > word "almost" in caps to avoid having anyone following up with wiseguy > suggestions like using spalted burls for the cabanes (well, that's what > I would probably do anyway). > Cabane struts made of Spruce can handle the loads - provided an adequate > cross-section is used, and the connection details are also properly > thought out. > Actually, the connection details are likely more important than the > species of wood used. > Substituting wood cabanes for the streamline steel shown in the plans is > a structural change, so of course, anyone proposing making a change like > this should either do the calculations themselves (if they are > qualified), or have them done by someone who is qualified. Don't mess > with it if you don't know what you're doing. > > I don't have the info at my fingertips, but as I recall, if made of > 4130, the cabanes could be as small as (maybe) 1/2" diameter tube (?) to > carry the loads imposed on them. But they would look stupid. Visually > they would not appear to be correct. > > Bill C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Just like in racing. If you want to be succesful, copy the leaders. Clif I think the springs also help eliminate shimmying, although logically you would think it would increase it. Just think, ALL Cubs, Champs, Taylorcrafts, Cessnas, etc, etc, etc use them. There MUST be a good reason. Gene ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: hickory wood
Date: Oct 08, 2009
There's nothing wrong with spruce or hemlock. Ash, hickory etc. are heavy with no real advantage. The reason for ash use in handles is shock resistance and, if properly made, shock mitigation to one's hands and arms. Both of which are across the grain. Oak and fir are not good choices as the have less resistance to tearout parallel to the grain. Go to this message to see analysis- message #40283; http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=57771674?KEYS=cabane?LISTNAME=Pietenpol?HITNUMBER=316?SERIAL=19290813641X?SHOWBUTTONS=YES Clif > > Jorge; I think hickory wood is what is commonly used > foraxe handles. You can also use ash if you are making > cabane struts from wood. You could probably also > use oak. > > Oscar Zuniga ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: hickory wood
Date: Oct 08, 2009
But then you COULD surround them with burl. :-) Clif Seneca: "There is no great genius without a tincture of madness." > I don't have the info at my fingertips, but as I recall, if made of > 4130, the cabanes could be as small as (maybe) 1/2" diameter tube But they > would look stupid. > > Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Subject: Re: Spring Gear
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Steve, You may want to check with a supplier or distributor of Lamina products, but I think you may be looking at an outdated catalog. I believe Bill pulled that page from the most recent catalog, dated May 20, 2008, available from the Anchor Lamina website: http://www.anchorlamina.com/pdf.d/DieMaxDieSprings.pdf <http://www.anchorlamina.com/pdf.d/DieMaxDieSprings.pdf>The H56L spring listed is the only spring shown in any of the current catalogs on the Anchor Lamina site (that I can find) that is almost identical to the H-56 listings that I can find in the older catalogs from third party suppliers websites. Two main differences: they have appended an 'L' to the part name, and the wire dimensions changed from .225" x .350" for the H56 to .245" x .328" for the H56L. The maximum operating deflection of 1.80" for the H56 that you give is at 30% of the free length of the spring. The H56L catalog listing does not give a value for maximum operating deflection at 30% of the free length; they now consider 28% of the free length to be the maximum operating deflection, which for the H56L is 1.68". If you compressed the H56L to 30% of the free length would the deflection increase 0.12"? I don't know, but I think it's a moot point because it's pretty close, and because both catalogs make note that the 28/30% max deflection is for design and informational purposes only; you wouldn't want to be approaching those values in practical application. As far as the deflection values at 15% and 20% of free length, they are exactly the same between the H56 and H56L. In a nutshell, it would appear to me that the H56 spring became (or has been superseded by) the H56L, but thankfully they have almost identical operating properties according to the catalog. Again, give Anchor Lamina or a distributor a call to be sure. HTH, Ryan On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 7:19 PM, steven sadler wrote: > Bill, > > Thanks for the information. This is an important subject for me as I intend > to finish putting the springs on my landing gear this weekend. Can you take > a look at my information below and see if I have missed something? > > I think we are looking at different springs. The Lamina H-56 and H-56L > springs are shown in different Lamina catalogs and have slightly different > information. The H-56 springs show a maximum allowable deflection of 1.80" > (not the 1.65" I stated earlier - I misread the number) at 1.8 * 10 * 58.4 > lbs/0.1 inch = 1051 lbs at full deflection. It is interesting that the > H-56L spring shows a fully compressed length but the H-56 doesn't. The H-56L > appears to have a bit more travel and might actually be a better choice. > > My arithmetic shows, for a 2.18" travel @ 58.4" per 1/10" travel: 2.18 * > 10 * 58.4 = 1273 lbs at full compression. With two springs, the total > available force before bottoming out will be 2500 lbs+. > > Either way, it looks like a hard landing in a 1200 lb airplane will > probably bottom out the springs. > > Steve in Winnipeg > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Bill Church wrote: > >> I've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56 >> spring data, highlighted. >> The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Max >> compressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actually >> compress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible. >> >> The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing: >> >> >> http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_spring.jpg&PhotoID 09 >> >> In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt. >> There is a note that says the slot should be *1/4" x length to allow for >> full compression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56).* >> Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will >> take 2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the >> minimum slot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would suffice. >> >> If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a >> 1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1 3/4" - >> 1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes 58.4 pounds >> per 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the end of the slot >> at a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough travel. >> >> But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the >> sum of the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the >> cross-bolt (or pin). >> >> Bill C. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: >> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *steven sadler >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:18 PM >> *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear >> >> For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use), >> the manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that >> spring, there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4" >> because the spring will be fully compressed already. >> >> I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer >> than the spring full compression distance. >> >> Steve in Winnipeg >> > > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Front cowling for the pietenpol
Not to steel any buisness, but Dad has an original Bernard style corvair co wling he bought and never used, and is looking to sell it.- It is in perf ect shape, and still in the box I believe.- If anyone is interested let m e know, and I'll pass any info on to him.- He doesnt want too much for it , just to recoup some of the cost he bought it for. - Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Javier Cruz" <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: Re: Javier is back !
Date: Oct 08, 2009
Hi Mike , is a pleasure to see that the old Piets (not for the age :),just on this list) still are here... I am trying to use the spare time for finish the Piet, and the first thing is update me with all things that are new on this list. About your comment, i really don't know, i think that all planes have it "enchantment" and the Piet have something extra , maybe because is made by your hands. I will post the advances here Thanks for your welcome. pd .I feel good that the Piets like the Mexican "gifts" ... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2009
From: jorge lizarraga <flightwood(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: hickory wood ok
soun great tanks oscar for the inform i like to have wood I see pictured fr om piet finished whit those parts from wood ala ww1 plane stails seyou nex --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: hickory wood Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:46 AM Jorge; I think hickory wood is what is commonly used foraxe handles.- You can also use ash if you are making cabane struts from wood.- You could probably also use oak. Speaking of hickory axe handles, and going back to earlier posts about making the wing tip bows out of something durable to resist groundloop scrapes, you could also install axe handle outriggers like the tri-wing Fokker airplanes had, to do the same thing.- Sort of like training wheels ;o) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net --- -------- ------ --- - le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2009
Subject: Re: straight axle bungees
From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com>
Also by the end of the war they weren't putting rubber tires on there fighters, they were steaming wood and making tires out of wood. Russell On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Bill Church wrote: > eng(at)canadianrogers.com> > > Douwe, > Do you mean the springs were used as bungees? Long springs wrapped in > the same manner as bungees? > I would imagine that set-up would have its own bunch of problems, even > more troublesome than the rubber bungees. > I think the springs would become entangled as they were stretched, > side-by-side, and jostled around, ending up with a tangled mess. > And springs break too - not just bungees. > Do you have one of those photos to share? Just curious as to what it > looked like. > > Bill C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe > Blumberg > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 5:11 AM > To: pietenpolgroup > Subject: Pietenpol-List: straight axle bungees > > --> > > The other day I came across some photos of WWI german airplanes where > the landing gear bungees had been replaced with long coil springs > wrapped around the axle in a similar manner. I am assuming this > expedient was due to their rubber shortage, but it set me thinking... > > Though heavier, I wonder if it would work. Over the years, I've heard > of two incidents with straight axle gears due to broken bungees. > Stainless steel springs can be had which would virtually eliminate worry > over aging bungees and the headache of replacing them every so often. > > I wonder how much heavier it would be. > > Douwe > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: bungee/springs
Date: Oct 09, 2009
I don't have the photo, but they used long springs and wrapped the axle exactly like a bungee. D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: straight axle bungees
Date: Oct 09, 2009
From: wizzard187(at)aol.com
Does anyone? have any experience in pressing new sleeve bushing?on? contintal connecting rods?? I now heating rod and? freezing bushing. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com> Sent: Fri, Oct 9, 2009 5:34 am Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: straight axle bungees Also by the end of the war they weren't putting rubber tires on there fighters, they were steaming wood and making tires out of wood. ? Russell ? ? On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Bill Church wrote: Douwe, Do you mean the springs were used as bungees? Long springs wrapped in the same manner as bungees? I would imagine that set-up would have its own bunch of problems, even more troublesome than the rubber bungees. I think the springs would become entangled as they were stretched, side-by-side, and jostled around, ending up with a tangled mess. And springs break too - not just bungees. Do you have one of those photos to share? Just curious as to what it looked like. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 5:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: straight axle bungees --> The other day I came across some photos of WWI german airplanes where the landing gear bungees had been replaced with long coil springs wrapped around the axle in a similar manner. ?I am assuming this expedient was due to their rubber shortage, but it set me thinking... Though heavier, I wonder if it would work. ?Over the years, I've heard of two incidents with straight axle gears due to broken bungees. Stainless steel springs can be had which would virtually eliminate worry over aging bungees and the headache of replacing them every so often. : tenpol-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol================= http://forums.mle, List Admin. ==== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 09, 2009
Subject: Western Piets availabele next week?
Going to Portland, Sacramento and Stockton next week looking for Piets, second request got 2 reply's anyone else interested? Lemme no John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2009
From: jeremy bramall <outofthebox50(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Sort of Piet related
I always wanted to have a drafting table in my office.- My dad has one in his office, I should get to have one too right?- I thought of this table last night.- The top is glass.- The base for the glass will be made fr om wing ribs and some short spars.- I was thinking of adding the drag/ant idrag wires inside the wing portion.- The stand will be made similar to a fuselage.- I was thinking of adding a turtle deck to the back, and makin g it all from poplar. - See what you think.- There is a poor drawing at the bottom of my webpage. http://www.myaffordaplane.com/other_stuff- It could be a good use for th ose extra wood and ribs you build that get culled in the end. - If you hover over the picture and click the magnifying glass. -It will ge t a little bigger. - Jeremy Bramall Dallas, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: hickory wood- skinny legs
Date: Oct 09, 2009
Yeh... I made enough money selling cheap pulp romance paperbacks that I could finally afford to buy my own Piet. Seriously, though, the airplane insprires flights of fancy. That and a few glasses of red wine. Meanwhile, I do want to mention that the latest edition of the BPA Newsletter is a good one (and aren't they all?) so if you aren't subscribed, it's a good old fashioned read with pictures and everything. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Spring Gear
Date: Oct 09, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Steve, Looks like Ryan did my work for me. Everything he wrote makes sense to me. I believe the H-56L is just the new name for H-56. My guess is that the L stands for Lamina. There was a corporate merger a few years ago, and Anchor-lamina merged with Danly, to form Anchor-Danly. I think the L was added to the end of any Lamina part numbers, to easily differentiate between the Lamina springs and the Danly springs. So, it looks like there's basically one source for die springs, whether you choose to go with Lamina or Danly (which is the manufacturer of the springs used by Hans, as sold by Aircraft Spruce). So, in short, I don't think there's any signficant difference between the H-56 and the H-56L (except for the paint job). As far as I know, the H-56 Lamina springs have been used successfully for some time for homebuilt aircraft landing gear applications. One thing to keep in mind, regarding the loading is the geometrical arrangement of the landing gear, with the springs being applied to diagonal members. Another thing is the softness of the tires, as mentioned by Oscar. For some reference, the Flybaby homebuilt relies solely on the softness of the fat tires for shock absorption. The Flybaby landing gear is rigid. My guess is that Hans' set-up provides a bit stiffer suspension than the H-56 springs, but that both are quite acceptable. I would make the slot long enough to permit full compression of whatever spring you choose to go with. Good luck with your progress over the weekend. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 11:00 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear Steve, You may want to check with a supplier or distributor of Lamina products, but I think you may be looking at an outdated catalog. I believe Bill pulled that page from the most recent catalog, dated May 20, 2008, available from the Anchor Lamina website: http://www.anchorlamina.com/pdf.d/DieMaxDieSprings.pdf <http://www.anchorlamina.com/pdf.d/DieMaxDieSprings.pdf> The H56L spring listed is the only spring shown in any of the current catalogs on the Anchor Lamina site (that I can find) that is almost identical to the H-56 listings that I can find in the older catalogs from third party suppliers websites. Two main differences: they have appended an 'L' to the part name, and the wire dimensions changed from .225" x .350" for the H56 to .245" x .328" for the H56L. The maximum operating deflection of 1.80" for the H56 that you give is at 30% of the free length of the spring. The H56L catalog listing does not give a value for maximum operating deflection at 30% of the free length; they now consider 28% of the free length to be the maximum operating deflection, which for the H56L is 1.68". If you compressed the H56L to 30% of the free length would the deflection increase 0.12"? I don't know, but I think it's a moot point because it's pretty close, and because both catalogs make note that the 28/30% max deflection is for design and informational purposes only; you wouldn't want to be approaching those values in practical application. As far as the deflection values at 15% and 20% of free length, they are exactly the same between the H56 and H56L. In a nutshell, it would appear to me that the H56 spring became (or has been superseded by) the H56L, but thankfully they have almost identical operating properties according to the catalog. Again, give Anchor Lamina or a distributor a call to be sure. HTH, Ryan On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 7:19 PM, steven sadler wrote: Bill, Thanks for the information. This is an important subject for me as I intend to finish putting the springs on my landing gear this weekend. Can you take a look at my information below and see if I have missed something? I think we are looking at different springs. The Lamina H-56 and H-56L springs are shown in different Lamina catalogs and have slightly different information. The H-56 springs show a maximum allowable deflection of 1.80" (not the 1.65" I stated earlier - I misread the number) at 1.8 * 10 * 58.4 lbs/0.1 inch = 1051 lbs at full deflection. It is interesting that the H-56L spring shows a fully compressed length but the H-56 doesn't. The H-56L appears to have a bit more travel and might actually be a better choice. My arithmetic shows, for a 2.18" travel @ 58.4" per 1/10" travel: 2.18 * 10 * 58.4 = 1273 lbs at full compression. With two springs, the total available force before bottoming out will be 2500 lbs+. Either way, it looks like a hard landing in a 1200 lb airplane will probably bottom out the springs. Steve in Winnipeg On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Bill Church wrote: I've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56 spring data, highlighted. The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Max compressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actually compress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible. The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_s p ring.jpg&PhotoID 09 In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt. There is a note that says the slot should be 1/4" x length to allow for full compression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56). Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will take 2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the minimum slot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would suffice. If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1 3/4" - 1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes 58.4 pounds per 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the end of the slot at a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough travel. But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the sum of the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the cross-bolt (or pin). Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steven sadler Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:18 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use), the manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that spring, there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4" because the spring will be fully compressed already. I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer than the spring full compression distance. Steve in Winnipeg " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Western Piets availabele next week?
John, If you don't mind a 40 mile detour off I-80 you are welcome to come to Santa Rosa and see my Piet under construction. I have the fuselage on wheels, wing ribs done, tail surfaces done, engine mount done, and engine about ready to hang.l Santa Rosa is North of San Francisco on highway 101 and about 40 miles West of I-80 via highway 12. My address is 3504 BAnyan St and phone is 707-571-8001. It would be nice to have a visitor and get some constructive comments. Cheers, Jim B. Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair On Oct 9, 2009, AMsafetyC(at)aol.com wrote: Going to Portland, Sacramento and Stockton next week looking for Piets, second request got 2 reply's anyone else interested?Lemme noJohn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 09, 2009
Subject: Re: Western Piets availabele next week?
In a message dated 10/9/2009 4:23:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimboyer(at)hughes.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim John, If you don't mind a 40 mile detour off I-80 you are welcome to come to Santa Rosa and see my Piet under construction. I have the fuselage on wheels, wing ribs done, tail surfaces done, engine mount done, and engine about ready to hang.l Santa Rosa is North of San Francisco on highway 101 and about 40 miles West of I-80 via highway 12. My address is 3504 BAnyan St and phone is 707-571-8001. It would be nice to have a visitor and get some constructive comments. Cheers, Jim B. Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair On Oct 9, 2009, AMsafetyC(at)aol.com wrote: Going to Portland, Sacramento and Stockton next week looking for Piets, second request got 2 reply's anyone else interested? Lemme no John ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 10, 2009
I just quickly scanned the answers but didn't see what I would say is a big reason- if you are running the leaf type tail spring like I am-as it flattens out it will get longer and if you have no springs in there to give it some relief something is going to give. might not notice it at the time but who knows what damage could occur? maybe a cracked rudder,bent control horn or such? Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267328#267328 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: bell crank spring for trim control
From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 10, 2009
I'd guess the spring tension would mainly depend on how well your CG is set up and how well you have the angle of your horizontal stabilizer set so you don't have so much need for stick pressure in flight.a Rans S-12 I had once used bungee cord wound around a plastic wheel and attached to the elevator linkage.worked fair but the cord wasn't that great over time.I basically ignored it and flew the plane.but it didn't need that much stick pressure.probably a simple trim tab would have been better. Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267329#267329 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 10, 2009
there it is!! I was not thinking when I said there had to be a reason that all light aircraft use springs, I forgot that it is for exactly that--to allow the leaf spring to move without causing damage that a solid cable definitely would. Duh! Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: skellytown flyer<mailto:skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 9:06 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tailwheel springs > I just quickly scanned the answers but didn't see what I would say is a big reason- if you are running the leaf type tail spring like I am-as it flattens out it will get longer and if you have no springs in there to give it some relief something is going to give. might not notice it at the time but who knows what damage could occur? maybe a cracked rudder,bent control horn or such? Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267328#267328 .matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267328#267328> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Cowling idea
From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Well I m slowly trying to get a cowl built for my GN-1/ Corvair setup.I have the lower section going on and what I did is bring the framework as close in at the front as possible and just under the exhaust manifolds.I am for now at least just turning the exhaust pipes out the sides so a lot of heat will not actually be down in the cowl even though I left a good size opening where it goes under the belly for air to exit.I am thinking about not cutting in an inlet box for the Stromberg air inlet in it for now and just let it draw the warmer air from inside. nothing will fit really tight and my thinking is maybe the warmer air will lessen the carb ice problems I hear the old Continentals have since they don't feed through the oil pan.-what is your thinking here? I guess if it doesn't run well it would be easy enough to cut in an air intake box from the front later on. Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267339#267339 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: firewall material
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Gary; is your firewall fabricated from galvanized sheet metal? I like the look of it on older planes. Ernie Moreno's airplane has a galvanized firewall. Not sure how it works out weight-wise to the other choices; I made the new firewall on 41CC from stainless and while it's very attractive, it shows every tiny oil smudge and fingerprint. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: firewall material
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Oscar, Yes, it is galvanized. If I had more money, or if I wasn't so frugal-minded (thanks, Dad), I might have sprung for SS. This material was left over from an abandoned 601 project. I thought it would be a chore to shape it, as all the sheet metal work I have done has been with aluminum. The process I used was exactly like making aluminum ribs. I was especially, and pleasantly, surprised at how easy galvanized bends!! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:08 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: firewall material Gary; is your firewall fabricated from galvanized sheet metal? I like the look of it on older planes. Ernie Moreno's airplane has a galvanized firewall. Not sure how it works out weight-wise to the other choices; I made the new firewall on 41CC from stainless and while it's very attractive, it shows every tiny oil smudge and fingerprint. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "jim" <quinnj(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Substitute for mahogany plywood
Date: Oct 10, 2009
What is an acceptable substitute for 1/8" mahogany plywood for the fuselage? Can't find it locally (Milwaukee) and shipping from AC Spruce is outrageous. Thanks, Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Sonex runs a direct linkage and uses a round spring Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tailwheel springs > From: skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com > Date: Sat=2C 10 Oct 2009 06:06:03 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > oo.com> > > I just quickly scanned the answers but didn't see what I would say is a b ig reason- if you are running the leaf type tail spring like I am-as it fla ttens out it will get longer and if you have no springs in there to give it some relief something is going to give. might not notice it at the time bu t who knows what damage could occur? maybe a cracked rudder=2Cbent control horn or such? Raymond > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267328#267328 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Subject: Re: Substitute for mahogany plywood
From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com>
Okume, also a direct sub is meranti, Meranti is almost the same strength to weight and okume is lighter and not quite as strong. I bought baltic birch that is three ply, the outer ply's are perfect no knots no imperfections, I can't see the inner ply however bending shows no voids or inclination to change bend radius at a splice. This wasn't sold to me as having water proof glue however I have soaked in in the bath tub 1 week, took it out smashed it with a hammer it failed in the grain not glue lamination line, I then took the remaining pieces and placed them out side where it rained one week the sun shined and then it rained another week, I then place the plywood in the oven at 170 for three days, still no DE lamination, I then tried the old hammer trick, no fail. I think this is more abuse and water than it will experience on a plane so there fore I'm using it. 20 dollars for a 5'x5' sheet, the shock resistance of birch is WOW, but then it's heavier, I would not use luan or regular ply that has gaps in the inner ply. Also you can and I have gone to lumber supply and hardware places and get door skins, you can pick them up cheap where a door has been accidental damaged. This was done on the original Bowers Fly Baby or at least so I've heard that it was built with door skins. Russell Russell On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 8:23 PM, jim wrote: > What is an acceptable substitute for 1/8" mahogany plywood for the > fuselage? Can't find it locally (Milwaukee) and shipping from AC Spruce is > outrageous. > > Thanks, > > Jim > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
From: Robert Ray <rray032003(at)gmail.com>
Yeah the champ I used to fly broke a spring, we were lucky no damge. I have a spring off a frieght harbor trailer but I don't know, I could also use the setup with the coil spring don't know the pros and cons between the two spring types. I have a motorcycle savage yard close and plenty of springs of the correct tension and probably would not break? Wonder what the weight comparison is? Russell On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Doug Dever wrote: > Sonex runs a direct linkage and uses a round spring > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tailwheel springs > > From: skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com > > Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 06:06:03 -0700 > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > > skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com> > > > > I just quickly scanned the answers but didn't see what I would say is a > big reason- if you are running the leaf type tail spring like I am-as it > flattens out it will get longer and if you have no springs in there to give > it some relief something is going to give. might not notice it at the time > but who knows what damage could occur? maybe a cracked rudder,bent control > horn or such? Raymond > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267328#267328 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > Hotmail: Free, tru84/direct/01/' target='_new'>Get it now. > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Vi Kapler's Piets
From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net>
Date: Oct 10, 2009
I am sure that Vi has one inch of dihedral. He stretched a string from wingtip to wingtip along the front spar and there is 1 inch at the center. Yes it is a one piece wing and he used his cast aluminum hinges for the rudder and elevator. I believe his aileron hinges are built to plans. The craftsmanship must really be seen to be appreciated. Ask him how he removed his completed wing from his basement workshop! Dan Wilson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267422#267422 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Subject: Re: Substitute for mahogany plywood
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Jim, Have you tried contacting McCormick Lumber in Madison? They are known for being a source of aircraft quality spruce and plywood....it's aircraft quality, it's just not certified, so it's not as expensive as actual certified aircraft wood/plywood. Madison, as you know, is not too far away for you. http://www.mccormicklumber.com/ (608) 244-4741 Ryan On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 7:23 PM, jim wrote: > What is an acceptable substitute for 1/8" mahogany plywood for the > fuselage? Can't find it locally (Milwaukee) and shipping from AC Spruce is > outrageous. > > Thanks, > > Jim > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Substitute for mahogany plywood
From: "Paul N. Peckham" <peckham9(at)countryspeed.com>
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Jim, McCormick Lumber in Madison carries 1/8" Okume in 4x8 sheets. I bought some there a few months ago and paid around $75 a sheet. Its marine grade, so its good stuff. I wanted to get some 1/4" Okume for the bottom of the fuselage but they only had Meranti. Nice plywood but it is darker than Okume and wouldn't match up well with the fuselage sides. I wound up going to Wicks Aircraft for 1/4" Okume. They also carry sitka spruce, about $9.00 a board foot, if I remember correctly. Its rough sawn, about 1 1/16" thick so you can plane it down to 3/4" easily enough, if you're making spars that size. If you're making 1" spars, forget it. Not enough there that you can plane down. I asked them about getting thicker spar material and they said there was not much demand for it. The stuff they had there was nice though, very straight grained, and in 16'-20' lengths. Their web site is: www.mccormicklumber.com and you can reach them at (608)244-4741. Good luck. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267425#267425 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Substitute for mahogany plywood
From: "Paul N. Peckham" <peckham9(at)countryspeed.com>
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Jim, McCormick Lumber in Madison carries 1/8" Okume in 4x8 sheets. I bought some there a few months ago and paid around $75 a sheet. Its marine grade, so its good stuff. I wanted to get some 1/4" Okume for the bottom of the fuselage but they only had Meranti. Nice plywood but it is darker than Okume and wouldn't match up well with the fuselage sides. I wound up going to Wicks Aircraft for 1/4" Okume. They also carry sitka spruce, about $9.00 a board foot, if I remember correctly. Its rough sawn, about 1 1/16" thick so you can plane it down to 3/4" easily enough, if you're making spars that size. If you're making 1" spars, forget it. Not enough there that you can plane down. I asked them about getting thicker spar material and they said there was not much demand for it. The stuff they had there was nice though, very straight grained, and in 16'-20' lengths. Their web site is: www.mccormicklumber.com and you can reach them at (608)244-4741. Good luck. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267428#267428 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Substitute for mahogany plywood
From: "Paul N. Peckham" <peckham9(at)countryspeed.com>
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Jim, McCormick Lumber in Madison carries 1/8" Okume in 4x8 sheets. I bought some there a few months ago and paid around $75 a sheet. Its marine grade, so its good stuff. I wanted to get some 1/4" Okume for the bottom of the fuselage but they only had Meranti. Nice plywood but it is darker than Okume and wouldn't match up well with the fuselage sides. I wound up going to Wicks Aircraft for 1/4" Okume. They also carry sitka spruce, about $9.00 a board foot, if I remember correctly. Its rough sawn, about 1 1/16" thick so you can plane it down to 3/4" easily enough, if you're making spars that size. If you're making 1" spars, forget it. Not enough there that you can plane down. I asked them about getting thicker spar material and they said there was not much demand for it. The stuff they had there was nice though, very straight grained, and in 16'-20' lengths. Their web site is: www.mccormicklumber.com and you can reach them at (608)244-4741. Good luck. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267429#267429 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 10, 2009
Apples and oranges. As has been noted, with our type of standard, curved springs, the wheel moves further aft as it moves upward. The Sonex spring is a long straight bar, parallel with the cables that does NOT get longer with weight on it.Hence, no need for the springs. Clif Sonex runs a direct linkage and uses a round spring Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: tailwheel springs
Date: Oct 11, 2009
Wheather a straight curved or hinged setup the geometry will change when fl exed. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio From: CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: tailwheel springs Date: Sat=2C 10 Oct 2009 22:54:32 -0700 Apples and oranges. As has been noted=2C with our type of standard=2C curve d springs=2C the wheel moves further aft as it moves upward. The Sonex spring is a long straight bar=2C parallel with the cables that does NOT get longer with weight on it.Hence=2C no need for the springs. Clif Sonex runs a direct linkage and uses a round spring Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection.=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "jim" <quinnj(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Substitute for mahogany plywood
Date: Oct 11, 2009
Wow, thanks Russell! I'll have to keep your testing procedures around for future consideration. I talked with the folks at McCormick's in Madison about Okume but was not sure of it until I got yours, and others, responses. Thanks again, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Ray To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:32 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Substitute for mahogany plywood Okume, also a direct sub is meranti, Meranti is almost the same strength to weight and okume is lighter and not quite as strong. I bought baltic birch that is three ply, the outer ply's are perfect no knots no imperfections, I can't see the inner ply however bending shows no voids or inclination to change bend radius at a splice. This wasn't sold to me as having water proof glue however I have soaked in in the bath tub 1 week, took it out smashed it with a hammer it failed in the grain not glue lamination line, I then took the remaining pieces and placed them out side where it rained one week the sun shined and then it rained another week, I then place the plywood in the oven at 170 for three days, still no DE lamination, I then tried the old hammer trick, no fail. I think this is more abuse and water than it will experience on a plane so there fore I'm using it. 20 dollars for a 5'x5' sheet, the shock resistance of birch is WOW, but then it's heavier, I would not use luan or regular ply that has gaps in the inner ply. Also you can and I have gone to lumber supply and hardware places and get door skins, you can pick them up cheap where a door has been accidental damaged. This was done on the original Bowers Fly Baby or at least so I've heard that it was built with door skins. Russell Russell On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 8:23 PM, jim wrote: What is an acceptable substitute for 1/8" mahogany plywood for the fuselage? Can't find it locally (Milwaukee) and shipping from AC Spruce is outrageous. Thanks, Jim " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "jim" <quinnj(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Substitute for mahogany plywood
Date: Oct 11, 2009
Hi Ryan, Yes I did. I was unsure of using Okume as a substitute until I got people's responses. McCormick's quoted me $75 per 4x8 sheet. Allot better than AC Spruce plus $100 for shipping. Thanks, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Mueller To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 9:25 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Substitute for mahogany plywood Jim, Have you tried contacting McCormick Lumber in Madison? They are known for being a source of aircraft quality spruce and plywood....it's aircraft quality, it's just not certified, so it's not as expensive as actual certified aircraft wood/plywood. Madison, as you know, is not too far away for you. http://www.mccormicklumber.com/ (608) 244-4741 Ryan On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 7:23 PM, jim wrote: What is an acceptable substitute for 1/8" mahogany plywood for the fuselage? Can't find it locally (Milwaukee) and shipping from AC Spruce is outrageous. Thanks, Jim " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "jim" <quinnj(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Substitute for mahogany plywood
Date: Oct 11, 2009
Thanks Paul, I did contact them and also got good feedback from the group on Okume. Thanks for the spar report too. That's next and I would prefer to go through them. Thanks again, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul N. Peckham" <peckham9(at)countryspeed.com> Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 9:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Substitute for mahogany plywood > > > Jim, > > McCormick Lumber in Madison carries 1/8" Okume in 4x8 sheets. I bought > some there a few months ago and paid around $75 a sheet. Its marine > grade, so its good stuff. I wanted to get some 1/4" Okume for the bottom > of the fuselage but they only had Meranti. Nice plywood but it is darker > than Okume and wouldn't match up well with the fuselage sides. I wound up > going to Wicks Aircraft for 1/4" Okume. > > They also carry sitka spruce, about $9.00 a board foot, if I remember > correctly. Its rough sawn, about 1 1/16" thick so you can plane it down > to 3/4" easily enough, if you're making spars that size. If you're making > 1" spars, forget it. Not enough there that you can plane down. I asked > them about getting thicker spar material and they said there was not much > demand for it. The stuff they had there was nice though, very straight > grained, and in 16'-20' lengths. > > Their web site is: www.mccormicklumber.com and you can reach them at > (608)244-4741. Good luck. > > > Paul > > > Read this topic online here:

October 04, 2009 - October 11, 2009

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