RV-Archive.digest.vol-ac

May 07, 1993 - February 19, 1994



      at different engine speeds.  Besides, I'm giving the fixed 
      pitch prop the benefit by assuming it's as efficient as the 
      C/S prop (ie., flys the same speed on the same power).
      
      In terms of weight that's 4 gal * 6 lbs/gal == 24 lbs.!  Hey,
      that just about covers the weight penalty of the constant
      speed prop.  Besides, prop weight is good weight; it allows
      me to carry baggage and still remain within CG limits :-).
      In reality, I probably won't realize the weight advantage
      very often because in most cases, I'd rather carry the 
      extra four gallons of fuel to benefit from the greater 
      range rather than greater payload.
      
      In term of $$$ that's $2 * 1 gal/hr == $2 / hr!  Hey, $1 /hr
      will cover my constant speed prop maintenance and another 
      $1 / hr can go into my bank account to pay for the additional
      cost of the prop over the life of my investment.
      
      Sure, you could select a fixed pitch prop that would fly
      as fast and economically at a given cruise altitude and 
      power setting as a C/S prop but in general, it would be 
      a dog in climb and also give up fuel/performance at other 
      cruise altitudes or power settings.
      
      Prop selection is a complicated issue.  The bottom line is 
      fixed pitch props don't necessarily result in significantly
      greater payload capability (after fuel weight is considered), 
      cost less initially, and offer fuel/performance numbers that 
      match C/S props over a fairly narrow operating range that is
      spanned by the parameters of power setting, altitude, and airspeed 
      
      C/S props are initially more expensive, but offer infinite 
      flexibility in selecting the best pitch for the flight profile. 
      Depending upon operation, they may not be more expensive over 
      the life of the prop.
      
      If you fly over a wide range of altitudes, or different power 
      settings, or wish to maximize range or aft CG baggage 
      capacity, you might want to consider a C/S prop.
      
      Earl Brabandt RV-6 N66VR (in progress)
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re[2]: RV Tops....
C/S prop - not to mention eliminating the need for 25-hour prop re-torques... don wentz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 10, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Constant Speed Props
OK I've almost bought the Constant Speed Prop argument. My RV-4 will be a very basis VFR machine (no gyros) so I thought I would be going fixed pitch wood as that would be "cheaper". Now I realize that "cheaper" may not have the best ROI. So: What are the right model numbers for Constant Speed props that fit on O-320's and O-360's? Also what aircraft were these originally installed on so I know where to look for a used one? I may spring for the C/S prop but I know it will probably not be a used one. Also, will Van exchange the cowls so it will fit or can it be modified without too much (I know define "too much") effort. Thanks for the list wisdom on the subject. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 1993
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: RTV
>> >> Did anyone else out here use RTV on the trailing edge of the >>stiffeners for the elevator/rudder? It's time for me to do the >>same, I'd like to hear about what type you used, etc. I've heard >>that some can be pretty corrosive, some set hard, etc... Any >>suggestions? >> > >In Australia we call it Silicon Sealent but basically I think its the >same thing. You have to get the stuff that has "Neutral Cure" written >on the outside. The other variety smells strongly of acetic acid when >you take the lid off which is exactly what they use to cure the product. >Acetic acid is a very bitter smell and don't take too much of a sniff >if you want don't want your sinus cleaned right out. > I read this just after I'd finished closing up my left elevator with nice little dabs of Permatex RTV at the ends of the stiffeners. How convenient. I subsequently read in AOPA Pilot in an article about windshields that "commercial RTV" has salts in it and can be highly corrosive. So I called Permatex (now Lok-Tite) in Cleveland, OH and asked their rep about it and he told me that the stuff I have (part #16B) can be to steel but isn't generally so to aluminum. Hmmmm. He also said that it contains acetic acid but no salts (wouldn't give me the exact formula, for obvious reasons). I'm no chemist, and I have no idea just how bad it is to have some acetic acid cured stuff against my primed aluminum skin. Anyone? I guess I'll find out for sure some day if little holes start appearing in the skins at the end of the stiffeners. I'll stay away from it in the future just to be safe. At least it was well Alodyned and primed before I put the RTV on.... I also asked him about their "Super Weather Strip Adhesive" product which I used on the rudder since I had it laying around before I got the RTV, and he said there's nothing corrosive in that, it being primarily rubber and acetone. I then asked him what other products they have that would not be corrosive, and he said the "Ultra" series - Ultra Black, Ultra Blue, etc. In the meantime, I plan to go ahead and use the Super Weatherstrip Adhesive on the right elevator - it made a nice firm but flexible little dab at the end of my rudder skin stiffeners. Any other experiences/suggestions out there? Randall Henderson RV6 - still workin' on the Emp. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: RE: RTV
> I then asked him what other products they have that would not be corrosive, > and he said the "Ultra" series - Ultra Black, Ultra Blue, etc. > > Any other experiences/suggestions out there? > > Randall Henderson > RV6 - still workin' on the Emp. > I've been ussing the RTV Ultra Black... I got couple tubes from my brother who works at Chevrolet. It has really good bonding quality (Still not quite as good as 'Pro-seal' though) Chris. RV-6 #21390 San Jose CA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Bay Area RVators
It's been sometime since the Bay Area RVators builders/flyers groups have met. Over the past few weeks I've been working with a few individuals in the area to reunite the group. I think the last time we met was in Livermore over a year and half ago. Of course we've all been busy and no one person can do it all. In the next few weeks those of you in the bay area that are on the builders group list should be receiving a copy of our quarterly news letter which is production right now. If you are living in the Bay Area and are not sure if your name is on the list or you have moved in the last 2 years, please send me email with updated information. I need to know what you building and how far along you are. Plus your name address and phone number. After the first meeting of this year. Which is planed for June 13th at Fazier Lake airpark. We will be compiling an up to date roster and builders tree from which you can contact people with your technical problems and or questions. The new structure of the group will also have a flyout division headed by Carl Eckenrode in which folks with completed aircraft can take part in the activ- ities the rest of us wish we could take part in. If you have any ideas for Meetings, Flyouts, or articles in the news letter please get in touch with me. Home (408) 274-9249 Work (408) 746-7422 Chris. RV-6 #21390 San Jose CA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1993
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Subject: Trailing edge bends
I finally sucked it up and bent one elevator trailing edge last night using the homebrew brake the manual describes. I used a 1/8" dowel at the TE to give me a good radius. My problem is that no matter how hard I try, I can't get the gap small enough to 'just touch the main spar flange'. I'm not talking about being scared to bend farther for fear of breaking something, I'm talking about not physically being able to bend it enough. Suggestions? The others are ready to bend, I'm just waiting to make sure I do it right. 2nd question: I'll be building my own spar, but I'm considering getting it anodized rather than priming it. Anyone know much about anodizing? There's no shortage of sailboat repair places around here. Would the type of anodizing used for, say, a sailboat mast be the same as that used for the wing spars? Thanks, Dave Hyde davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: Trailing edge bends
I just bent the leading edges using two 1x4 boards with a couple of large C clamps. I had the skin placed in the V notch jig and held the boards on the trailing edge and tightened the C clamps. I did not have the spar in place when I did the bends and just made progressive bends until I got it bent "enough". Then I clecoed the spar on the one side that was already drilled and clamped it in place to thew other side (I had made a reference line per the sketch in manual) that showed where the spar should line up) and then drilled and clecoed the spar to the skin. I did not have the end ribs installed at this time either but I don't think that should make any difference. I had to build two sets of elevators and this was the technique I used on the second (and correctly built) set. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Tips, ideas, etc.
I've been meaning to write these up for the RVATOR for some time but here are some tips and ideas I have used on my RV-4: 1) Since I don't own a bandsaw and do own a table saw I have found that the composite metal cutting blades work well with the table saw to cut the angle stack and thicker aluminum plate (0.063 or greater). WEAR EYE PROTECTION and I found wearing leather gloves and long sleaves to be wise as the pieces will tend to get hot to touch as they are cut. Finsh the cut edges using a skotch-brite wheel on a bench grinder. Yeah a bandsaw would be better but I don't have one yet... 2) A Pilot brand Photographic marker is much better than a Sharpie as it provides a very fne line on AL. I had a hard time finding a convenient source for the Pilot permanent markers mentioned in so many newsletters, etc. The photo markers are about a buck each at KMART in No. VA. 3) In bulding the wings I have used a different construction technique than the manual. The shorthand version goes like this: a) Mark and drill angle pieces for the rib attachment using the pre-drilled holes in the spar as guides. Then attach the ribs to the angle pieces while the angle pieces are temporarily held in place with bolts to the spar (not really neessary to tighten up nuts on the bolts). Then drill the attachment holes for the ribs to the spar (Where the pop-rivets go). Then clean everything up, prime and rivet the angle stiffeners to the ribs. b) Use a long piece of 3/4x3/4 angle to mark the rib spacing from where they attach to the spar and transfer these dimensions to the rear spar. Then clamp and drill the ribs to the rear spar. All of the above is done while the spar is NOT in the jig. c) Again withe the spar not in the jig but resting with the flange vertically on sawhorses or whatever I then drilled one side of the leading edge skin wher it attached to the spar (not the ribs.) This makes it easier to get the skin drilled to the spar without the spar drooping which it will do in the jig. I also dril the top rpow of rivets wher the skins meet at the spar. With the skins resting on the horizanal ribs it is easier to get an expert fit than trying to wrestle the skin in palce in the jig. d) I then place the spar and rib assembly in the jig and with the skin clecoed along the spar it will have less tendency to droop and require less support in the middle to get a straight spar. e) I marked the centerline of the ribs on the bottom(top) of the leading edge skin (top of the training edge skins), pre-drill the skins an the bench top, and then dril through the holes in the skin to the ribs. With the pre-drilled holes it is easy to see the centerlines I had previously marked on the ribs. Results: perfectly straight rivet lines and no edge distance problems with my rivets to the ribs. This is a quick explanation but it worked better thatn the method described in the manual. 4) Dremel moto-tool with high-speed cutter works great for cutting out and radiusing openings in the elevator/rudder skins where the hinges attach. Finish the cutouts with the small sanding drum tool for the moto-tool. 5) I did not rivet the most forward skins on the fuselage before I turned it over in the jig and got it on the gear. I will rivet them after completing work in the forward fuselage after I complete rudder pedal, fuel system, etc. install. THese techniques have worked well for me you might just try them. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 1993
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Subject: Cheap scotchbrite
For those of us on the east coast, Read Plastics in Rockville, MD, is a great source for any 3M stuff including Scotchbrite wheels, pads, etc. They're also a lot cheaper than any of the kit-tool places on most things. Their phone # is (301) 881-7900. davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Wing tip landing lights
Howdy, At the Frederick RV Forum someone had sent for display, Wingtip landing lights. Looked great, but there was NO information. Anybody have any info or experiance with this lighting system? ie cost, fit, etc. An alternative to Dave Hyde's scotch brite (for those of us that do not live near D.C. BTW REED's PLASTIC is a great place, been there) is through Harbor Frieght, Camarillo CA. I believe the cost is ~$11.00 for a box. Also they have rolls of aluminum oxide cloth about 2" wide and 50 yd long for ~$9.00 Doug Bloomberg ps How many are going to Oshkosh? Besides myself. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Wing tip landing lights
>At the Frederick RV Forum someone had sent for display, Wingtip landing >lights. Looked great, but there was NO information. Anybody have any info >or experiance with this lighting system? ie cost, fit, etc. I bought the VOR antennae from Terry Hodges' ad in the latest RVAtor. He mentioned that he has a set of wingtip lenses that he wants to sell so he can install a set of my 'duckworks' leading-edge lights. You might give him a call... Don Wentz - RV-6 20369 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 1993
From: "Mark Richardson" <richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca>
Subject: Oshkosh attendees
dbloomberg(at)solbourne.com (Doug Bloomberg) writes: [Stuff Deleted] > >Doug Bloomberg > > >ps How many are going to Oshkosh? Besides myself. See ya there Mark *********************************************************************** * Mark Richardson Internet: richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca * * Project Engineer * * Atlantic Phone: 902-468-3680 * * Software Kinetics Ltd. Fax : 902-468-3679 * * 900 Windmill Rd. Suite 107, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada, B3B 1P7* *********************************************************************** ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 1993
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: Test Message...
This is a test message... Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 1993
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: RV-LIST Back Online!!!
Sorry about the loss of the rv-list mailing list! I didn't even know! I upgraded to a new OS a couple of weeks ago, and did't run 'newaliases' to bring back all of the mail lists. Again, sorry. Let's get that RV building dialog going again!!! Matt Dralle RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: RV-LIST Back Online!!!
Howdy, Got the mail, Yea! Anyone going to Oshkosh? Dougb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 1993
From: lackerma(at)rad.rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman)
Subject: Oshkosh
Isn't the RV6 forum Friday afternoon? I will be there is I can skip from work. laurens ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Missed Mail....
> Sorry about the loss of the rv-list mailing list! I didn't even know! > I upgraded to a new OS a couple of weeks ago, and did't run 'newaliases' > to bring back all of the mail lists. Again, sorry. > > Let's get that RV building dialog going again!!! > > Matt Dralle > RV-4 And I just thought we were in another dry spell. I know I don't have too much to report since I've just about shelved my RV till October. I'm getting Married in September (in a DC-3 of course), and there are just too many things to do till then. Been trying to finish up the Annual on me fiance's Stinson so we can take it on our continental US tour (touching down in every state for our honeymoon). Anyway keep the postings coming, I read them all! Chris. RV-6 #21390 San Jose CA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1993
From: "Mark Richardson" <richards(at)atl.sofkin.ca>
Subject: Oshkosh
Hi folks, Yup, I'll be there. Those of us that are going should meet at Vans display sometime during the week, just to put faces to names. What do you think ? Mark *********************************************************************** * Mark Richardson Internet: richards(at)atl.sofkin.ca * * Project Engineer OR-- richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca * * Atlantic Phone: 902-468-3680 * * Software Kinetics Ltd. Fax : 902-468-3679 * * 900 Windmill Rd. Suite 107, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada, B3B 1P7* *********************************************************************** ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: RV-LIST Back Online!!!
Great, I thought it was a problem at my end. Not going to Oshkosh, but spent Friday at Arlington, it was good. What did you think builder's groupies, did we have more RVs at our fly-in? The GeeBee replica was incredible to see, both on the ground and in the air. Van's performance in the RV-4 (now with smoke!) was inspiring as usual. I won't even try to describe Bud Granley in Lewis Aviation's YAK-55. Brutal! I had a long conversation with RV-6A trophy winners Steve and Teresa Barnard about their RV-6/6A wing quick-build kits. They buy wing kits from Van and do all the stuff we hated doing, including pre-drilling the rear spars and all of the flap/aileron attach points. They cut all of those thick aluminum pieces, including the tank & wing inspection panels and rings (predrilled and cntrsunk!), and the angle at the inboard tank tip. Many of the flap and aileron parts are also pre-drilled. At the least, the accuracy of many of these items would be improved. I think anyone who has mounted the ailerons to the wings can identify with that. I don't know what they charge, but he estimated you could be drilling skins within a few days of receiving his 'kit'. Definitely an option worth looking into if you haven't bought your wing kit yet. (Sorry -3 & -4 builders, -6/6A only). 916-676-5601 if you're interested. don w. Sorry about the loss of the rv-list mailing list! I didn't even know! I upgraded to a new OS a couple of weeks ago, and did't run 'newaliases' to bring back all of the mail lists. Again, sorry. Let's get that RV building dialog going again!!! Matt Dralle RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1993
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: Re: RV-LIST Back Online!!!
> Great, I thought it was a problem at my end. Not going to Oshkosh, but spent > Friday at Arlington, it was good. What did you think builder's groupies, did > we have more RVs at our fly-in? > > The GeeBee replica was incredible to see, both on the ground and in the air. > Van's performance in the RV-4 (now with smoke!) was inspiring as usual. I > won't even try to describe Bud Granley in Lewis Aviation's YAK-55. Brutal! > > I had a long conversation with RV-6A trophy winners Steve and Teresa Barnard > about their RV-6/6A wing quick-build kits. They buy wing kits from Van > and do all the stuff we hated doing, including pre-drilling the rear > spars and all of > the flap/aileron attach points. They cut all of those thick aluminum pieces, > including the tank & wing inspection panels and rings (predrilled and > cntrsunk!), and the angle at the inboard tank tip. Many of the flap and > aileron > parts are also pre-drilled. At the least, the accuracy of many of these items > would be improved. I think anyone who has mounted the ailerons to the wings > can > identify with that. > > I don't know what they charge, but he estimated you could be drilling skins > within a few days of receiving his 'kit'. Definitely an option worth looking > into if you haven't bought your wing kit yet. (Sorry -3 & -4 builders, -6/6A > only). 916-676-5601 if you're interested. > > don w. > > Don, Are those people from the Sacramento California area?? That's where I grew up and learned to fly. Matt Dralle > Sorry about the loss of the rv-list mailing list! I didn't even know! > I upgraded to a new OS a couple of weeks ago, and did't run 'newaliases' > to bring back all of the mail lists. Again, sorry. > > Let's get that RV building dialog going again!!! > > Matt Dralle > RV-4 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: RE: Steve and Teresa
> > I had a long conversation with RV-6A trophy winners Steve and Teresa Barna > > about their RV-6/6A wing quick-build kits. They buy wing kits from Van > > and do all the stuff we hated doing, including pre-drilling the rear > > spars and all of > > the flap/aileron attach points. They cut all of those thick aluminum piec > > including the tank & wing inspection panels and rings (predrilled and > > cntrsunk!), and the angle at the inboard tank tip. Many of the flap and > > aileron > > parts are also pre-drilled. At the least, the accuracy of many of these i > > would be improved. I think anyone who has mounted the ailerons to the win > > can > > identify with that. > > > > I don't know what they charge, but he estimated you could be drilling skin > > within a few days of receiving his 'kit'. Definitely an option worth look > > into if you haven't bought your wing kit yet. (Sorry -3 & -4 builders, -6 > > only). 916-676-5601 if you're interested. > > > > don w. > > > > > > > Don, > > Are those people from the Sacramento California area?? That's where I grew > up and learned to fly. > > Matt Dralle > No... They are actually from Southern California. Steve work for Douglas Aircraft down there for a number of years before quiting... About that time they weren't too far from finishing there now 6A Steve started the bird when the 6 just flew and he was waiting on the 6A plans... Anyway, Teresa got a job in Scotts Valley and they moved to San Jose. Steve got the airplane flying over at Byron airport, then moved it over to Reid Hillview were I met him... Actually he called me up one day out of the blue... He heard I was building and asked if I wanted to check out his air- plane. Over the next year they finished up the little stuff and got it paint ed about 200 - 300 hours later. Just in time for Oshkosh last year. I got to do some work on his plane and he helped me with my fuel tanks :) He was always talking about making a fast build kit of the RV. Anyway... they relocated about 9 months ago to Plaserville (sp?) over near SAC. he went there to go build an RV-6A for some doctor guy. Chris. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: OSHKOSH
I'll be there Monday and Tuesday. Installing the wings on the -4 for the first time tommorow. Richard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: OSHKOSH
Howdy, FYI I helped set the wings on two RV-6's and 1 RV-4 in the last week. I have a smart level, so I attribute that to my popularity. The smart level is an electronic level which has 4 display modes, and is able to be calibrated in a matter of seconds. The display mode used on our little planes is measuring difference from level in degrees and tenths of a degree. ie 10.4 degrees or .2 degrees or 0.0 degrees, etc. With each of the three planes we followed Van's directions, exactly. First leveling fore/aft; right/left. Getting the plane off the tires is important as maintaining level is nigh impossible due to flex of the tires when setting on them. Next determining alignment, measuring from the same location on the wing tips to a centerline point on the aft end of the fuselage. ((Don't use the engine as a point of reference as the engine mount is 1.25 degrees offset to the right)) Determine if the wings are sweept forward or aft by using plumb bobs as described in Vans builders guide. Finally the Important step, and why I LIKE the Smart level. To set the incidence using a bubble level you have to have the plane level in both roll and pitch. The top longeron is the reference point, so build it well friends, bumps here make it darn hard to get an accurate measurement. Then using the appropriate spacer (RV-4 and RV-6 spacers are different) Support the level. A sketch is in the fuselage section of book. Adjust the aft spar up or down to obtain level. *************** Now the Smart level way (I checked this for accuracy after setting the incidence Van's way, leveling the plane in the roll pitch axis) Set the landing gear on blocks. Level the roll axis do nothing about the pitch axis. Adjust the alignment, measureing from wingtip to a centerline aft reference point. Set it and clamp the rear spar. Set the Smart level on the top longeron. There is a reset PB on the right of the level's display, press it twice with out moving it. This sets the level's zero to what ever angle it was setting on (now the display reads 0.0). Remember the top longeron is a reference point, and to set the wing you want to adjust it to be parallel with the top longeron. The only reason Van asks to have the planes pitch axis to be level is he assumes that a bubble level only is available. So... set the levelas above, place the level on the wing as described in the construction manual. Adjust the wing for level reading (0.0) using the smart level. The angle of incidense is now set. Of course if you prefer you can use the prescribed means, of leveling the plane fore and aft, but you gain nothing when using the smart level. The smart level does give a good feeling as you can read to a tenth of a degree what your angle is, or if the piece is truely level. Also very handy confirming angles and alignment of your holding fixtures. For what its worth, Doug Bloomberg RV-6 in pieces gathering dust, to busy helping other folks! See you at Oshkosh. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: Setting Wings (was OSHKOSH)
I haven't got my engine yet (really need to get serious about that now) but plan on a O-320 with focal mount. Installation of the wings went fine. I did not set the incidence yet so that is next on the agenda. Probably next weekend. Did install the ailerons and made the control linkages though. Going to Oshkosh with the mission to buy as much of the stuff I can to finish the bird. Need engine instruments, radios (including transponder as I am under a TCA veil here in DC.), cabin heat, engine controls (quadrants, etc), and on and on.... Hope to fly when the birds head back north. Richard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: Setting Wings (was OSHKOSH)
Richard, Just read your second mail. If you are getting Vettermans exhaust he has some dynamite heatmuffs. Stainless die formed ends, two piece uses aircraft style hose clamps and screws to hold the whole thing together. Which is good, because the muff Van sells breaks where the end plate meets the the body in under 100hrs. The cost for a dual heat muff (surrounds two exhaust pipes, for RV-4 4 pipe system is $85) For a single pipe heat muff(cabin heat) and carb heat muff, combo is $100. As always the stainless exhaust (four pipe for RV-4) is $475 mild steel is $350. (same prices for RV-6 RV-6A four pipe or x-over) Vetterman's number is (303) 932-0561. They are guaranteed to fit. And he has yet to have a complaint of breakage with 450+ systems flying. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 being built, when I'm not making exhausts with Larry. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Setting Wings (was OSHKOSH)
>>Just read your second mail. If you are getting Vettermans exhaust he has >some dynamite heatmuffs. Stainless die formed ends, two piece uses >aircraft style hose clamps and screws to hold the whole thing together. >Which >-is good, >because the muff Van sells breaks where the end plate meets the the body >in under 100hrs. >The cost for a dual heat muff (surrounds two exhaust pipes, for RV-4 4 pipe >system is $85) For a single pipe heat muff(cabin heat) and carb heat muff, >combo is $100. >As always the stainless exhaust (four pipe for RV-4) is $475 mild steel is >$350. (same prices for RV-6 RV-6A four pipe or x-over) Vetterman's >number is (303) 932-0561. They are guaranteed to fit. And he has yet to >have a complaint of breakage with 450+ systems flying. >Doug Bloomberg >RV-6 being built, when I'm not making exhausts with Larry. I had quite a long discussion with Larry at a homecoming. It seems they have done significant performance related, on-aircraft testing (which is likely NOT true for other RV exhaust suppliers). I have pretty much decided that his four pipe units will be the way I go. I recently recommended them to a -4 builder and he was totally happy with them, said they fit great. Doug, I will be needing some for my -6 soon. I am installing an airflow performance injection system, do you think there will be any fit issues (C/S cowl)? Do you recommend mild or stainless steel? What is your current delivery schedule? Don Wentz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Batteries
I am to the point I need to mount a battery in my RV-4. What is the list's wisdom on auto or marine batteries (gell cells) vs. aviation gell cells. I know that cars start every day while planes sit around a lot but other than that what's the difference? I would like to consider any number of car/boat battery options due to greater availability and lower cost. Also, what about regulators for gell cells. Opinions seem to be varied so who has real (good or bad) experiences with gell cells and what type of regulators did you use? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: Batteries
>From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb) >Sender: rbibb(at)cisco.com >Subject: Batteries > >I am to the point I need to mount a battery in my RV-4. What is the list's >wisdom on auto or marine batteries (gell cells) vs. aviation gell cells. > Folks around here have been using Gel Cells that were originally intended for garden trectors. These cells function in RV's which are used for aero- batics, they are claimed to be more vibration proof than car usage gel cells, fit into the box Van has designed, and the price is right ~$58.00. Now I will have to look up the specific manufacturer, but my guess is that most Battery shops will have a listing for garden tractor gel cells. >I know that cars start every day while planes sit around a lot but other >than that what's the difference? I would like to consider any number of >car/boat battery options due to greater availability and lower cost. > A couple of folks have placed plug in connectors for trickle battery charging. The method varies but the bottom line is to use a pair of small connectors, fused and permanently mounted so you don't have a problem with connecting wires and loose wires. Now if you have AC power available a small trickle charger would be fine to keep the charge up. Or, if you have sunny days a solar panel from Radio Shack would also work. Put it on the roof of your hanger and wire it down to your plane. Don't forget to fuse the wiring. >Also, what about regulators for gell cells. Opinions seem to be varied so >who has real (good or bad) experiences with gell cells and what type of >regulators did you use? > > A friend and Chapter member gave our program last week on generators and batteries. (He owns an alternator repair shop here in Denver, been doing it for almost 40 yrs). He said that any regulator that will put out 13.8 to 14.2 volts will work. Bob also said use an alternator that normally has an external regulator. The reason is you can switch the field and if your regulator does go bad or your alternator goes bad you can turn off the field and effectively shut down the alternator. (three failure modes with an alternator, (1) doesn't put out enought current; (2) diode fails and and ac felt at the battery; (3) overvoltage.) Overvoltage will boil a battery, once dry the voltage goes very high and things like radios smoke. The reason to use a normally external (gee I could tear an alternator apart and run a special wire out) is what if your alternator goes bad on a trip, then you would have to tear the spare apart at some FBO. Also it makes it easier to change regulators. Final note. All alternators need to have a blast tube for cooling. The proper placement for the cooling air is to be towards the rear (opposite end of the pulley) of the alternator. The alternators are built with the diodes (they need to run coolest) at the rear, with the cooling air drawn thru the back to the front. So... putting the output of the blast tube directed towards the fan/pulley is incorrect. Also try to run the alternator at ~7500 rpm during cruise. (Use the small diameter starter ring/pulley from Lycoming) > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Doug Bloomberg RV-6 On hold I'm Oshkosh bound. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Batteries
>I am to the point I need to mount a battery in my RV-4. What is the list's >wisdom on auto or marine batteries (gell cells) vs. aviation gell cells. Van's (and myself) buys their gell cells from the local Battery Xchange, 35 amp/hour automotive, about $70. >I know that cars start every day while planes sit around a lot but other >than that what's the difference? I would like to consider any number of >car/boat battery options due to greater availability and lower cost. Your RV will sit around alot??? :-) The main warnings are that you a) be sure to use a proper regulator as overcharging kills them in a hurry, b) if it ever runs down or has a low charge, recharge using trickle, NOT using the alternator, as the alt will try to pump as much current into it as it needs to recharge, causing the overcharge/overheat issue. >Also, what about regulators for gell cells. Opinions seem to be varied so >who has real (good or bad) experiences with gell cells and what type of >regulators did you use? I know several people are using automotive regulators with good results. It is recommended that you use an external regulator rather than an alternator with the built-in reg (common in autos), so you can shut-off the excitation voltage and disable the alt in an overcharge or runaway condition. Sorry, I am just now shopping for my alt/reg so don't have any model info for you. don w ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Re: fuel sending units
> I just ordered the fuel sending units from United Speedometer. Plenty in > stock and thanks for the hot tip a while back. I haven't ordered the > gauges yet and wondered which gauges you used. Do they work with the > Isspro gauges? Are the Isspro gauges any good? Any other feedback is > appreciated. > > Earl RV-6 N66VR (in progress) Earl: I can't recall if I wrote you back... But I found this mail in my mailer today while I was cleaning up some old mail. I figure if I forgot I better take the chance and write you again. Anyway, You can use nearly any gauge you want as long as the are the resistor type not capacitive.... I bought the Westtech 2 in one gauge that I plan on mounting right next to the valve switch. You'll want to pick up the gauge before you seal the tank so you can set the upper and lower limits of the float to correspond with the gauge. (for best results) You can eye it, but I like things perfect... especially fuel gauges. You can also add a low fuel light for cheap in one of the tanks.... I figure on putting on of those in my flop tube tank since that gauge will not read accurately to empty since it sits in the second bay. I finished up my right tank (all sealed & test) but my left tank is not completely done yet. Chris. RV-6 #21390 San Jose CA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Prop, etc. wanted
I am in the market for a wood prop and extension for my RV-4. I am using an O-320-E2D (3/8" mounting holes) but may go ahead and upgrade the pistons to make it a 160hp engine. Anyone out there buy the wrong prop, upgrade to constant speed, or end up with and extra prop they want to sell? Also, without starting a religious war I would like to get users experiences and/or opinions regarding the various props available for RVs. Thanks for your help! Oshkosh bound! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 1993
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Subject: Alodyne
OK, so I've decided to alodyne parts of my wing spar. Where do I find the stuff? A quick scan through Trade-A-Plane turned up nothing, so it's up to y'all. I could pick up the phone...nah. Thanks in advance, Dave Hyde davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 1993
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Alodyne
> OK, so I've decided to alodyne parts of my wing spar. > Where do I find the stuff? A quick scan through > Trade-A-Plane turned up nothing, so it's up to y'all. > I could pick up the phone...nah. > > Thanks in advance, > > Dave Hyde Aircraft Spruce has the stuff - Alodyne 2001 if I remember the number correctly - the gold stuff. The gold is for use anywhere other than visible un-exposed surfaces (such as polished aluminum skin), and results in a pale gold coloring of the surface. There's also a clear version that can be used where cosmetics dictate, i.e. un-painted, exposed skin. It's also a good idea to use the "Alumiprep" acid based cleaner to clean and etch the surface prior to alodyning. I've etched and alodyned *everything* from the start, then primed over that with Desoto 2 part epoxy primer - Earl Brabandt was doing it and damned if *I`m* going to build an inferior airplane! But also because I've always flown a lot on the Oregon coast, and may move there some day, and I HATE dealing with corrosion. Probably take me a lot longer to build the plane, but what the hey, we all have our perfectionist quirks I think.... Randall Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 1993
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Alodyne
Subject: Re: Alodyne > OK, so I've decided to alodyne parts of my wing spar. > Where do I find the stuff? A quick scan through > Trade-A-Plane turned up nothing, so it's up to y'all. > I could pick up the phone...nah. > > Thanks in advance, > > Dave Hyde Aircraft Spruce has the stuff - Alodyne 2001 if I remember the number correctly - the gold stuff. The gold is for use anywhere other than visible un-exposed surfaces (such as polished aluminum skin), and results in a pale gold coloring of the surface. There's also a clear version that can be used where cosmetics dictate, i.e. un-painted, exposed skin. It's also a good idea to use the "Alumiprep" acid based cleaner to clean and etch the surface prior to alodyning. I've etched and alodyned *everything* from the start, then primed over that with Desoto 2 part epoxy primer - Earl Brabandt was doing it and damned if *I`m* going to build an inferior airplane! But also because I've always flown a lot on the Oregon coast, and may move there some day, and I HATE dealing with corrosion. Probably take me a lot longer to build the plane, but what the hey, we all have our perfectionist quirks I think.... Randall Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 1993
From: Greg Pisanich <greg(at)eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RV lover
Hi all. I caught wind (not literally) of this list from a posting on the rec.aviation.homebuilt list. I work at NASA Ames in the area of cockpit human factors, the cockpits in the RVs I've seen so far have been really great, no glass cockpits yet? I'd like to start a -4 in a year or so. I've got the list of postings from matt from the last few years. It's a great summary. Here's a question, how well does kit 1 prepare you for the rest of the aircraft? too easy? or a real experience? I was planning on taking one of the classes that was offered on building before starting. Thanks, Greg Pisanich greg(at)eos.arc.nasa.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: RV lover
Greg, Welcome to RV-dom Van offers a class, week long probably the best price for the time spent. But, Herb Ross also offers a class (see this months Kitplane) friends have gone to each. Herbs class points out better ways to build the entire kit, while showing you how to do the basics. Van's shows you how to do the basics. Suggestion, order (if you have the money) your empenage and wings at the same time. the empenage will arrive in a week. The wings will get to you probably either the end of Oct or Dec. Depends on demand. Build the horz and vert stabilizer. Don't build the elevator or rudder, yet. Even though you will do an adequate job building these now. You will do an outstanding job after your skills have been improved by constructing the rest of the aircraft. I say this from observation of builders who have completed their aircraft. Almost to a person, they are disatisfied with their craftsmanship of those thin skinned control surfaces. As to preperation by doing the tail. We you have to start somewhere, and its a great place to begin. Gets you into the mind set of reading the plans, and building. Suggestion, build your spar, instead of Phlogiston doing it for $800.00. Use Avery's Dimpleing Tool (Avery Enterprises, 2290 W Hicks Rd., Hgr 54-1, Ft. Worth, TX 76179) and a 4X or 5X rivet gun to set the rivets. Takes about 45 hours to do. Also there are other RV builders in your area, become thier friends. Help them watch them, listen to them, Steal their secrets! I wish you well, it's not that hard to build, the support network is terrific. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 more rivets getting bucked every day. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1993
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: Re: RV lover
> Subject: RV lover > > Hi all. I caught wind (not literally) of this list from > a posting on the rec.aviation.homebuilt list. > > I work at NASA Ames in the area of cockpit human factors, > the cockpits in the RVs I've seen so far have been really great, > no glass cockpits yet? > > I'd like to start a -4 in a year or so. I've got the list of postings > from matt from the last few years. It's a great summary. > > Here's a question, how well does kit 1 prepare you for the rest of the > aircraft? too easy? or a real experience? I was planning on taking one of > the classes that was offered on building before starting. > > Thanks, > Greg Pisanich greg(at)eos.arc.nasa.gov I would say that the tail kit is an excellent indoctrination into the typical RV construction. Go for it! Can you send me the rec.avaiation.homebuilt posting that refered to the rv-list?? Thanks! Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: RV lover
>Here's a question, how well does kit 1 prepare you for the rest of the >aircraft? too easy? or a real experience? I was planning on taking one of >the classes that was offered on building before starting. > I found (in retrospect) the first kits to be some of the more difficult to really do a good job on. Learning curve had a WHOLE lot to do with that but getting a good fit on the elevators, etc. was taxing. Basically, after you do the empennage you will have mastered the skills needed to build the rest of the airframe. Richard Bibb RV-4 on the gear - to fly Spring '94. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1993
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: RV lover
>Here's a question, how well does kit 1 prepare you for the rest of the >aircraft? too easy? or a real experience? I was planning on taking one of >the classes that was offered on building before starting. > So far all I've done is the empennage, so I can't say for sure how well it prepares you for the rest of the kit. But from where I sit it feels like an excellent intro to a lot of various skills I see coming up in the wings and fuse - namely thick & thin skins, plenty of angles, control surfaces, fiberglass fairings, and various sizes of rivets, both flush & universal. As for what to do first, the plans start with the HS but I did the VS first and think that's a good idea. It's smaller and less complicated, and only has one axis to worry about being symmetric about instead of two. If I had it to do over I'd still do the rudder and then the elevators after the VS and HS instead of putting them off till later as some have suggested. Just be DAMN careful - it's easy to get cocky after finishing two major sub-assemblies and start going too fast on the control surfaces. They're somewhat more delicate and tricky to build, but if you're careful and don't get in a rush, and are willing to eat a "practice part" or two instead of convincing yourself that it's "good enough", you should do fine. Keep in mind that one of the reasons to start with the Empennage is that the parts are smaller and consequently cheaper to buy if you screw up. Randall Henderson RV-6 Emp all but done, wrapping up on the tip fairings now ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Aug 12, 1993
Subject: RV Lovers
The advice about waiting to build the rudder and elevators until after doing the wings is the best I have heard of if you don't have a support group handy or haven't done a lot with mechanical drawings. You might even want to do the most of the wings before the stabilizers. The wings don't have lots of funny angles and cutouts that drive you nuts. I made a fixture to hold the pieces of the stabilizers out of a big flat piece and some blocks because it is very difficult to transfer dimensions from the flat drawings onto the curved and tapered pieces. Two other builders in the area have since used the fixtures and found it much easier to get things right. A reminder to RV 6 builders: The detailed instructions I am generating now cover from the elevators up through most of the wings, including the main spar, tanks, and ailerons. Let me know if you want a copy. frank(at)SSD.intel.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1993
From: Ray Belbin <ccrdb(at)jcu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: RV lover
> > Here's a question, how well does kit 1 prepare you for the rest of the > aircraft? too easy? or a real experience? I was planning on taking one of > the classes that was offered on building before starting. > > Thanks, > > Greg Pisanich greg(at)eos.arc.nasa.gov This might help... Before ordering the tail kit , I was ashamedly cautious of some of the simplest do-it-youself items, such as putting a couple of screws in a chair to repair it. I didn't like the thought of building anything! I just wanted a sprightly plane! I took on the empenage of my 6A with great trepidation and decided that if I could overcome my encumberances and put the tail together, then I should be able to do the whole plane. I was prepared that if I failed or didn't like it, then I hadn't wasted too much money. I've now finished my empenage and recieved my wing kit last week. 1) I now *** love *** building anything! 2) Whilst I was shaky and slow when I started, I am now putting things together with confidence. Still cautious of course! 3) I've never seen or been in an RV and can only go on what I've been told about how good these machines are. Now I don't really care if its any good or not, I just enjoy building it. 4) Knowing other builders in my area has helped me tremendously. 5) I can't wait to stuck into these wings! Ray Belbin RV6A (Empenage 12 months, anticipate wing construction to take less) PS No building classes for me, but help from other builders was great. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | 0 o | ------------------------------ | | ====-----=======--... | | Ray Belbin (ccrdb(at)manta.jcu.edu.au) | | | / - __. . .....__|-| | TROPICAL Townsville , Queensland | | |__/ '--.__/ | | AUSTRALIA ************************* | | | ------------------------------ | | THUNDER DOWN UNDER .... OZ! | 24 C CAVU | ------------------------------------- (Remember America's Cup '83!)-- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1993
From: John Morrissey <mor374(at)its.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: RV lover
Hi Greg, Re your message, >Here's a question, how well does kit 1 prepare you for the rest of the >aircraft? too easy? or a real experience? I was planning on taking one of >the classes that was offered on building before starting. So far Iv'e finished and sold one RV6 and I am now working on an RV4. From what Iv'e seen of a large number of RV projects here in Australia by a lot of guy's from different walks of life I'd like to make the following suggestions. First, Buy the plans as soon as possible. The hardest part of putting together this project is getting your brain around the way Van's puts his plan's together, By the way they are among some of the best Iv'e seen so far. Next get the Tailplane kit and just do what Van tells you to do. He starts with the heaviest skins first so you can get used to riviting and working with the plans. Your Idea of attending a course is a good one and I would suggest you visit people who are working on RV's in your area, Van's can help you with a list of builders in your area. Just buying a tailplane kit is a great intro to the rest of the kit and if you decide it not for you then you haven't wasted a lot of money. The last suggestion I would like to make is, If you have a problem then try a quick Email to this list, There's a lot of help out here. Good Luck Happy Riviting!! John Morrissey Vans RV6 VH-HRV Vans RV4 VH-??? Tail finished, One wing finished, Second wing 60% ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: RV lover
Howdy, Greg submits a question and we hear from everyone. Good deal. Something I forgot is the is some video tapes out. The quality is good, though not broadcast quality. They are made by George and Becky Orndorff who are building their second RV-6A. Tapes cost ~$40.00 a set. Current out are tools needed ($12.00), Empenage building, Wing Building. Coming this spring is fuselage building. They are pretty useful, particulary if you live some distance from another builder. They show some ways to build but not necessarily the best way for each builder. Available through Avery Tools, or Van's Doug Bloomberg RV-6/ Mad hatter! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1993
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: New RV Bitmaps Available...
Okay, so I got a new color scanner and I've been busy. There are some way-cool full color bitmaps of RVs in the anonymous FTP dir on matronics.com now. Look in ./bitmaps and ./bitmaps/Old_bitmaps, the later dir being the one from a few months back. I have scanned the new ones in at 16mil color, and tried to make them as close to 1024x768 as the picture format would allow. Two questions for those that have that kind of stuff: My scanner will not scan in 8-bit mode (only 24bit) and the 8bit color exporter does kind of a lame job of mapping the colors. I'm using a Logitec Scanman Color and the PhotoTouch software that come with it. Any suggestions on better 24bit to 8bit color converters? There must be something on the net somewhere that would do a nice job of this. Also, to who ever did this before, please feel free to convert the files to gif and put them on roxanne. Is that a PC utility? Lastly, if you saw a really cool picture in Sport Avaiation or Kitplanes in the last 2-3 years, let me know and I'll scan it in for you. Specify the size (ie 1024bitx768bits) you'd like. Have fun! Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Newest RV-6
Longmont, Colorado: Aug 13, 1993 Jim Bengston flew N134JB today, 13 months after starting construction. The pink slip was given him by the local DAR, Terry Edwards this AM. After a 20 min test flight Jim landed and has a HUGE GRIN. Due to travel and a son's wedding actual construction time was 11 1/2 months. Jim is a friend and member of EAA chapter 680, he doesn't have access to the net but thought you might like to here another RV flys. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 mighty envious in my garage ps Jim's test area is from Longmont, CO to Gardner, KS, to Sterling,CO, to Fort Collins, CO. He has to do a 40 hour test. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1993
From: quent(at)md.fsl.noaa.gov (Quentin Johnson)
Subject: Re: Newest RV-6
> From dbloomberg(at)solbourne.com Fri Aug 13 14:20:22 1993 > Longmont, Colorado: Aug 13, 1993 > > Jim Bengston flew N134JB today, 13 months after starting construction. ... > ps Jim's test area is from Longmont, CO to Gardner, KS, to Sterling,CO, to > Fort Collins, CO. He has to do a 40 hour test. > It's good to know there are folks pounding rivets nearby (although Jim is probably going to avoid that for a while) so I can go find inspiration when I'm ready to restart my project. Quent ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Newest RV-6
Tell him congrats from us. Pretty fanatical build time.... don wentz Longmont, Colorado: Aug 13, 1993 Jim Bengston flew N134JB today, 13 months after starting construction. -The pink slip was given him by the local DAR, Terry Edwards this AM. After a 20 -min test flight Jim landed and has a HUGE GRIN. Due to travel and a son's wedding actual construction time was 11 1/2 months. Jim is a friend and member of EAA chapter 680, he doesn't have access to the net but thought you might like to here another RV flys. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 mighty envious in my garage ps Jim's test area is from Longmont, CO to Gardner, KS, to Sterling,CO, to Fort Collins, CO. He has to do a 40 hour test. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 1993
From: Ray Belbin <ccrdb(at)jcu.edu.au>
Subject: Rivetting Question
A friend of mine who flys rescue aircraft and has contacts in our Air Force has offered me some help with doing my Wing Spars. (He owes me actually). On offer is having my 3/16" rivets "annealed". I'm not exactly sure what this is about, but it has something to do with a process that softens rivets. I think I remember an article some time ago in the RVator about this. I'm dammed if I can find it or remember what it said. What are the experiences of other builders about annealing rivets? Ray Belbin (empenage done , about to get teeth into wings) --------------------------------------------------------------------- | 0 o | ------------------------------ | | ====-----=======--... | | Ray Belbin (ccrdb(at)manta.jcu.edu.au) | | | / - __. . .....__|-| | TROPICAL Townsville , Queensland | | |__/ '--.__/ | | AUSTRALIA ************************* | | | --------- o ------------------ | | THUNDER DOWN UNDER .... OZ! | 20 C ISO Str 3000' | ------------------------------------- (Remember America's Cup '83!)-- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 1993
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Rivetting Question
> A friend of mine who flys rescue aircraft and has contacts in our > Air Force has offered me some help with doing my Wing Spars. (He owes me > actually). On offer is having my 3/16" rivets "annealed". I'm not exactly > sure what this is about, but it has something to do with a process that > softens rivets. I think I remember an article some time ago in the RVator > about this. I'm dammed if I can find it or remember what it said. > What are the experiences of other builders about annealing rivets? > > Ray Belbin > (empenage done , about to get teeth into wings You may be thinking of the article in the May '93 Sport Aviation about Dave Anders' Polished RV-4, in which he talks about using a dentist's oven to anneal his rivets. In the article he mentions that he got the technique from another article - in the Dec. '87 Sport Aviation, about Kit Sodergren's Midget Mustang. Van's opinions on annealing rivets can be found in the April '93 RVAtor -- "Soft Rivets - Boon or Boondoggle?". If you still are interested after reading that, IAP publications' book "Aircraft Sheet Metal" (ISBN 0-89100-296-0) has a description of the process. I have no opinion of my own on this, except to say that after reading all of the above material (except the Midget Mustang article) it sounds like too much extra hassle for me. But then, I don't have ready access to the equipment anyway. Randall Henderson Empennage DONE, wings patiently waiting... P.S. If you can't locate the referenced articles, I could E-mail the text. Let me know. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 1993
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: More On The RV Bitmaps...
I have installed some different bitmaps on matronics.com in the anonymous directory. Each file is in TIFF and BMP, so choose your poision. I learned a great deal on how to use the scanner this weekend, so these pics are a lot nicer. They are in 24 bit color, but look okay displayed on an 8 bit display. If you pick them up, be sure to let me know what you think. Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Rivetting Question
Ray, in the RV-Ator article that Randall referenced, Van basically says that the process is too exacting to be undertaken by 'most' builders, and he feels that the opportunity for error is not worth the chance, and, the 'supposed' gain in workability of the rivets is less than the effort involved in annealing them anyway. (In others words, spend your time bucking the rivets, not annealing them). Several of our builder's group members just finished their spars using standard rivets and the Avery dimple tool with a 3 lb. hammer. They all felt the job was no big deal. Any of you coming-in for the homecoming? I live 25 minutes from the factory and would consider putting you up for the weekend. don wentz. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Perrin <perrin(at)sofkin.ca>
Subject: Large RV pictures
Date: Aug 17, 1993
Gidday I am looking for a source of large (ie. 16 x 20 or larger) high quality picture of an RV-4 in flight to frame and put up in my office. Any body got any sources? I'd even be willing to pay if necessary. Leads would be appreciated. TIA John Perrin RV4 distributed about the workshop. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Rivetting Question
Regarding the riveting question. I did not anneal any of the rivets on my RV-4 and they turned out ok and were not really hard to do. I did have my spar done by Phlogiston thought but that was because the holes weren't being drilled when I bought the kit. One suggesstion however. For the flat head external AN3 rivets - invest in one of the rivet sets that have a swiveling head. Avery sells them for about $35 I believe. It made a tremendous difference in the cosmetic appearance of my rivets as it makes it almost impossible to get a "smiley" on the skins. I think sometime builders get psyched out on how "difficult" it might be to do some of the operations needed to build one of these things when in fact, with a little practice it isn't really that hard. (I'm speaking from personal exerience here). Like Don Wentz said,"spend your time bucking the rivets, not annealing them." Good Luck Ray!! Richard Bibb RV-4 ready for engine install... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Re: annealing spar rivets....
There is NO reason to anneal the rivets in the main spare. They can easily be installed in the normal fasion, and from my understanding if you don't cook and cool your rivets just right they will end up being weeker then original and you don't want to week'n the main spare at all. If you wan't to spend the UNNEEDed time and effort in annealing rivets do it in the most cosmetic places only. Not that my opion really matters Chris. RV-6 with no annealed rivets but still show quality! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: San Jose AREA RVators.
Howdy, I will be in the bay area, Actually I will be at SUN in Milpitas the week of Aug 28 to Sept 3.. I realize that its homecoming for Vans but I was hoping on Sat or an evening during the week I could meet some of the folks in the bay area, and see their projects and just talk for a couple hours. I would like to see how other RVators in different areas do things. Never can tell what great ideas I can steal! Doug Bloomberg RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 1993
From: lackerma(at)rad.rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman)
Subject: lead
I am balancing my elevators and am having trouble finding lead. The hardware people say to use plumbers lead which has antimony in it and hardens better than pure lead. Is there anything wrong with that idea? Where have others procured there lead? Thanks in advance. laurens ackerman rv6a ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Re: Lead
> I am balancing my elevators and am having trouble finding > lead. The hardware people say to use plumbers lead which > has antimony in it and hardens better than pure lead. Is > there anything wrong with that idea? Where have others > procured there lead? I picked up sum lead from the local hardware store that looks like steal wool. I't very easy to use, no melting required - just pould it in. I don't recall anything about it having antimony in it?? I believe I picked the stuff up at Orchard Hardware(aircraft) Supply :) Chris. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: lead
Where to find lead for balancing the elevators. 1) Lead is used to balance your wheels, you could take the weights off your neighbors cars, or go to the tire store and ask for some used weights. 2) Most gun stores have lead, one trick is to get lead shot no. 7 or 9 and use epoxy to hold it in. Mix the shot with the epoxy, it will need a slightly larger volume due to the space the epoxy takes. A friend has flown his RV-4 since 1985 with this method of counter balancing. Of course you can still melt it. They usually have ingots of lead there. Take care, Doug Bloomberg RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 1993
From: quent(at)md.fsl.noaa.gov (Quentin Johnson)
Subject: Re: lead
Long, long ago, before the age of laser printers and photo typesetting there were linotype machines with a hunger for lead ingots. I wonder how many print shops still have lead bars laying around? Quent Johnson (quent(at)md.fsl.noaa.gov) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re[2]: lead
>Where to find lead for balancing the elevators. >1) Lead is used to balance your wheels, you could take the weights off >your neighbors cars, or go to the tire store and ask for some used weights. This is the method I used. I knew someone with a lead melting pot, which helped. >2) Most gun stores have lead, one trick is to get lead shot no. 7 or 9 > and use epoxy to hold it in. Mix the shot with the epoxy, it will need > a slightly larger volume due to the space the epoxy takes. A friend has > flown his RV-4 since 1985 with this method of counter balancing. > Of course you can still melt it. They usually have ingots of lead there. This is a great idea, because a) you can buy shot in bulk at the gun shop, b) you don't have the danger of all that hot lead, c) you don't subject your aluminum to the heat, d) probably a piece of cake to add more. Another hint: Use hardware store stainless bolts/nuts/washers to install before adding the lead. Fill the inboard section first, totally, so you can file it to a nice finish, then you can fill the outboard section as needed for balance. don wentz RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Cooling questions
I am installing an O-360 in an RV-6 and was wondering if any of you have any experience with cooling. The question is: How critical is the external oil cooler? I plan to use the OBERG oil filter, an automotive racing unit that is about 6 inches square, 2 inches thick, with 1 inch cooling fins on it. It filters by way of a washable stainless steel fine mesh screen. It provides some oil cooling, and I am wondering if it would be enough if placed in cool air flow, much like an oil cooler would be. A local 150hp RV-6 pilot has experimented with blocking the airflow to his cooler with no appreciable increase in oil temps. Of course, that is an O-320, not an O-360... Discussion? don wentz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Re: Cooling questions
I am not to familiar with the filter/cooler you are using, If you have any specs on it you'll be better off. Lycoming does have a temperature drop from the input to output off the oil cooler, but I don't recall the number - A quick phone call will do you 1000 time more then my best guess. With that number perhaps you can compare it to the filter/cooler specs. I've heard from most Flying RV's that they have not had any oil cooling troubles, and many have different mounting places. I know every one I know has used an some kind of aircraft oil cooler though. You can always ground run it, then if your happy there fly it around the patch, I'm sure you won't have trouble in cruse, it's just those hot days out of Bakersfield that will nail ya! Chris. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: lead
Got the lead for my counterweights from a good, old fashioned plumbing supply store in Herndon, VA. They sold me a five pound ignot for about $7 I believe. It took two to do both sides with about a lb. or two left over. I melted them in a cheap pot from Kmart (I used an aluminum pot but a cast iron one would have survived better) on a coleman propane stove. I them poured the lead into the tips per the manual. Be sure to use heavy gloves and to have good ventalation (do it in the garage with the door open...). You must find a plumbing store that caters to the trade and not Home Depot or the like that caters to Harry Homeowner... Richard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 1993
From: richards(at)atl.sofkin.ca
Subject: Metal Trimming
Hi Folks, I bought a partially completed -6 epenage off of a fellow last year and have been letting it languish in my shop until I went to Oshkosh this year. (I expect my flight in Van's -6A while I was there has something with my renewed enthusiasm ; ) Anyway, I've had a REALLY close look at everything and now I understand why I got such a good price on it. I'm going to need to re-skin everything and build a new vertical stab : ( My question is this: what do you folks use when trimming the ends of sheets or have to manufacture parts ? My aviation snips seem to hose everything up, and a Dremel tool with cut-off disks seem to take forever. Sometimes a band saw is good enough, but what about cutting out the elevator trim tab ? I've never seen this question asked before so I imagine it is a dorky question. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: earlb(at)ichips.intel.com
Subject: Re: Metal Trimming
Date: Aug 25, 1993
> ( My question is this: what do you folks > use when trimming the ends of sheets or have to manufacture parts ? A bunch of us here in the Portland Area RV Builder's Group like the straight snips sold by Avery Tools. They have an aluminum body and replaceable cutting edges. You will probably need to bevel the cutting edge with a grinding wheel slightly to prevent marring of the sheet. Other than that, they're great for straight cuts. Earl Brabandt RV-6 N66VR (in progress) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Harriger <jimharr(at)microsoft.com>
Date: Aug 25, 1993
Subject: RE: Metal Trimming
well, it depends on what you mean by 'hose everything up'? :-). if you mean that the snips tear the metal at the end of the cut, then the trick is to NEVER close the snips all the way down. you have to cut things in 1/2 to 3/4 length 'bites'. once we figured out this little trick, we never had any problem cutting stuff out. does this help, or have i just muddied the waters beyond hope? jim harriger past partial rv-6 builder future kitfox builder. ---------- | From: <netmail!richards(at)atl.sofkin.ca> | To: | Subject: Metal Trimming | Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1993 10:21AM | | Received: from matronics.com by netmail.microsoft.com with SMTP (5.65/25-eef) | Received: from hawk.nstn.ns.ca by matronics.com (4.1/1.15) | Received: from skl017.nstn.ns.ca (ingate.nstn.ns.ca) by hawk.nstn.ns.ca (5.0/SMI-SVR4) | Message-Id: <9308251319.AA03217(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca> | Content-Length: 832 | | Hi Folks, | | I bought a partially completed -6 epenage off of a fellow last year and have | been letting it languish in my shop until I went to Oshkosh this year. (I | expect my flight in Van's -6A while I was there has something with my | renewed enthusiasm ; ) | | Anyway, I've had a REALLY close look at everything and now I understand | why I got such a good price on it. I'm going to need to re-skin everything | and build a new vertical stab : ( My question is this: what do you folks | use when trimming the ends of sheets or have to manufacture parts ? My | aviation snips seem to hose everything up, and a Dremel tool with cut-off | disks seem to take forever. Sometimes a band saw is good enough, but | what about cutting out the elevator trim tab ? | | I've never seen this question asked before so I imagine it is a dorky | question. | | Mark | | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Metal Trimming
Mark, I use snips (including a pair like Earl recommended), and because of the dimpling effect AND the fact that I can't seem to cut straight lines, I always leave at least 1/16 inch of material outside of the trim line then file the excess up to the line. This allows me to shape the cut and file-off the dimples. A couple of REALLY GOOD files will cut that material surprizingly quickly, and should be a must in any RV tool set. Don't forget to wear a leather glove when filing, them edges do cut! Some builders use a scribe to make final trim lines, as they are more accurate than a 1/16" felt pen line, and are good to file-up to. don w. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 1993
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Metal Trimming
richards(at)atl.sofkin.ca wrote: >I bought a partially completed -6 epenage off of a fellow last year and have >been letting it languish in my shop until I went to Oshkosh this year. (I >expect my flight in Van's -6A while I was there has something with my >renewed enthusiasm ; ) >Anyway, I've had a REALLY close look at everything and now I understand >why I got such a good price on it. I'm going to need to re-skin everything >and build a new vertical stab : ( ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Um... I hope you make SURE you need to do this. If so I'd seriously consider re-BUILDing it, i.e. get a new kit and start from scratch. While it is possible to drill out all the rivets holding the skin onto the H.S., if you do it right it will take forever and if you do it wrong you'll end up with lots of oversized, elongated holes in the skeleton, which isn't that complicated or expensive to build anyway, especially compared with what lies ahead. Also, the elevators and rudder basically ARE the skin. I managed to screw up one of my elevator spars badly enough that I had to buy all new parts (minus the skin) and redo it, and the cost was somewhere around $35. > My question is this: what do you folks >use when trimming the ends of sheets or have to manufacture parts ? My >aviation snips seem to hose everything up, and a Dremel tool with cut-off >disks seem to take forever. >>A bunch of us here in the Portland Area RV Builder's Group like the >>straight snips sold by Avery Tools. I use those for most straight cuts on raw skin, but I also like the Wiss offset snips for tight places and curves. They are available in right and left offset (from Avery or maybe your local HW store) and I use both quite a bit. The major drawback with using these is that they leave a slightly serrated edge on the metal, but it's easy to smooth that off using a die grinder with a Norton wheel. Randall Henderson I see several people have already commented on what kind of snips to use so I won't address that, but are we to infer that you intend to manufacture new skin out of raw stock? If so you will need a pretty sophisticated brake to bend the leading edges of the skin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Perrin <perrin(at)sofkin.ca>
Subject: CS4-4 Rivets
Date: Aug 25, 1993
Gidday I am skinning my hstab, and note that the plans call for some of those CS4-4 rivets for the center tip rib on each side.I plan to use normal 426-3's for the top and do it first, but may use the CS4's for the bottom. The question is, what have you'all been using to dimple or countersink for these animals? I tried a few things on some scrap, and the only thing that looked any good was using my shallow angled deburring bit to cut a small amount of material around the hole. The "pop rivet dimpler" made an awfully large dimple which looked terrible when I put a rivet through it. From looking at them closely, I would guess the head is at a 120 degree angle. I noted that George O. used solid rivets on his video and stuck his arm down the front of the hstab prior to attaching the inboard tip rib. Is that standard practice? I'm not sure my arm will fit down that hole (the forearm muscle is getting kinda chunky from extended use of the cleco pliers). John Perrin RV4 2473 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 1993
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Metal Trimming
>The skins have not been riveted yet, just clecoed. >Nope, I'll be buying the new skins from Vans Oh, well that's different! In that case, never mind. Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: new or not...
> >The skins have not been riveted yet, just clecoed. > >Nope, I'll be buying the new skins from Vans > > Oh, well that's different! In that case, never mind. > > Randall Well, you'll still have a hell of a time drilling the skin with hole already in the frame. You'll have to make some sort of template to transfer the holes exactly. You might want to just trash everything but the rear spare if that is in good shape. The rear spare takes the longest to build and you can back drill the wholes if you have a 6" or 12" #30 drill. Chris. RV-6 #21390 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Add to list...
Gang, say Hi to Mike Wilson. He works over in PCED and is finishing-up the tail of his RV-4. Matt, please add him to the list. dw ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 1993
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: CS4-4 Rivets
>I am skinning my hstab, and note that the plans call for some of those CS4-4 >rivets >for the center tip rib on each side.I plan to use normal 426-3's for the top >and >do it first, but may use the CS4's for the bottom. The question is, what >have >you'all been using to dimple or countersink for these animals? I tried a few >things on some scrap, and the only thing that looked any good was using >my shallow angled deburring bit to cut a small amount of material around >the hole. The "pop rivet dimpler" made an awfully large dimple which looked >terrible when I put a rivet through it. From looking at them closely, I >would >guess the head is at a 120 degree angle. > > (stuff deleted) > >John Perrin I still can't place rivets by their numbers very well offhand, but if I remember correctly, the CS4-4 rivets are the ones with a -4 (small) flush factory head, but have an oversized (1/8") shaft. The method that seemed to work best for me with these was to pilot drill with a #40 bit, then dimple with the -4 set, then drill to the final size with a 1/8" bit. Randall Henderson Currently between the emp and the wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: In San Jose/San Francisco Area Aug 28 - Sept 3
Howdy, I will be in Milpitas next week, any RV builders in the area? I would like to visit your project and shop/fly. Any takers? Doug Bloomberg RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 1993
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Subject: Re: CS4-4 Rivets
Re: CS4-4 Rivets John Perrin wrote: >The question is, what have you'all been using to dimple >or countersink for these animals? I drill #40 holes as if I were going to put a regular 3/32" rivet in, countersink it with a #40 cutter (or -3 dimple die) and then drill out the hole for the rivet shank. This works well for me with a little care pulling the rivet. BUT! >I'm not sure my arm will fit down that hole >(the forearm muscle is getting kinda chunky >from extended use of the cleco pliers). I thought the same thing, but you don't lose anything by leaving the root ribs clecoed until the last minute anyway. This way you can see if you arm (or someone else's) will fit to buck. If not, pop rivet the hogs. As it turned out my arm fit and I was able to buck 'em all. Dave Hyde ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: De burring rivet holes.
Howdy, I have gotten tired of the rough surface (in the holes) left using the standard deburring tool. So... I now use a countersink cutter of appropriate size. The pilot stabilizes the cutter and the debur is much cleaner in appearance and I feel there will be less chance of cracking over the years. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 more rivets getting smashed every day. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re[3]: lead
Well, ordered the rest of my panel yesterday. KX125 nav/com ($1650 at the local avionics shop) and Flybuddy loran ($799 with inst. kit and antennae) from Chief Aircraft in Grants Pass Oregon. This is the panel mount, without any database cards (add $200 and up for them). I got the radio locally because the price looked similar to the ads and so I could ask them for help if I need it. King is sticky about homebuilders installing their own radios. don wentz RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Aug 26, 1993
Subject: Re: De burring rivet holes.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)solbourne.com (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: De burring rivet holes.
Howdy, I have gotten tired of the rough surface (in the holes) left using the standard deburring tool. So... I now use a countersink cutter of appropriate size. The pilot stabilizes the cutter and the debur is much cleaner in appearance and I feel there will be less chance of cracking over the years. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 more rivets getting smashed every day. Good tip. Keep them coming. F. Justice ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 1993
From: ward(at)s1.gov
Subject: Big Rivets Done!
I riveted up my wing spars this last weekend. I used the Avery arbor with a 4 pound hammer. I got the new reinforcement plate for the arbor that Avery offered after Tony Bingelis mentioned a couple months ago that hitting a lot of big rivets on the arbor might bend it; In any case, the arbor is find but I am as sore as hell! Crawling around on the garage floor on your hands and knees is a bit of a hassle, particularly if your not young - real young. I decided to use the garage floor for a good solid base and not to subject my work bench to hundreds of blows with a big hammer. The rivets setup real nice. It took a couple blows to get rid of my shyness with the hammer; after my first hit I looked at the rivet and it didn't look any different - you have to give it a good whack. Three to four whacks was typical depending on the rivet's hardness. I noticed that some batches of rivets were harder/softer than others. I was surprised that I had to do very little hole cleanup after assembly - maybe 15 or 20 was all and that was on the shortest rivets. I thought the Variprime would make it difficult to insert the rivets but that wasn't the case; most of them slid right in. I inserted all the rivets, tightened the bolts, taped over the rivets with masking tape ,and then did the riveting. Overall, I was real impressed with the pre-drilled spar. Everything fit well and all the cutouts and lightening holes were marked with pilot holes. The dihedral angle was even cut which I didn't expect. The total time to do the spars was 53 hours; Van estimates about 40 hours - well, maybe next plane after I've done everything once. -- Rich, RV4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Major Milestones!
Yesterday, rv-list member Doug Minor and I installed the gear and hung the engine on my RV-6 fuselage! After 3 yrs 1 month, it really looks like an airplane. Even my wife got excited! Can you tell I'm a little pumped? Keep pounding, it gets there... don wentz O-360 RV-6 (for real now!) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Aug 30, 1993
Subject: Re: Big Rivets Done!
I wish my spar had gone this well. My predrilled RV6 spars (delivered in December 1992) took several hours of messing around with holes. Only about one fourth of the rivets dropped right in. The holes were apparently made at different times with different drill bits; eight or ten rivets in a row would go in and the next few would not go at all. About another fourth went in after the primer was cleaned out, but metal had to be removed from the rest. Also, when one bunch of holes were lined up with all the pieces another bunch would not, like the strips were not clamped well enough for the whole operation. Not a reliability problem but very irritating. Hopefully the normal quality is better than that, but if anybody out there has the same problem they should know they are not alone. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RV -- actually worked on it!
Date: Aug 30, 1993
From: Steve Harris <steveha(at)tailslide.pen.tek.com>
I actually got out and worked on my RV this weekend for about 15 hours. Not a big deal really, except that it was the first time I had touched it in about 8 months... I guess Van's homecoming got me fired up pretty good. Congratulations Don... I want a ride when it gets done. Steve Harris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 01, 1993
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: wings & things
I sense a lull in the activity on the list, so here's a really broad question: I'm just starting on my wings. I remember several easy pitfalls that I wish I'd known about (along with a lot that I'm thankful I DID know about) on the empennage. To those of you who are doing/have done your wings, what sorts of general "just make sure you DO or DON'T do THAT!" tips would you have for someone who's just starting out on this phase of the project? And since I mentioned it, are there any empennage builders who would care to hear the aforementioned tips on that phase? I won't bore the list with my stupid mistakes unless someone is interested. Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Perrin <perrin(at)sofkin.ca>
Subject: RV-4 Elevator Tip Ribs
Date: Sep 07, 1993
Howdee I'm building my '4 elevators, and have having some problems locating the tip ribs. Two questions for those who have already done this: 1) There is a tab on the flat end of the shorter of the tip ribs (about 1.5" long). Does one bend this tab and rivet it to the main web of the spar, or does one leave it straight and rivet it to the flange (inbetween the flange and the full length rib)? 2) Is there any preferred method for locating the long rib (fore and aft),or does one just fit it in assembly with the hstab? The plans don't seem to help much in this area, although I gather the normal problem is with the skin, which I _do_ understand. Thanks in advance john rv-4 2473 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 1993
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Subject: Re: RV-4 Elevator Tip Ribs
>1) There is a tab on the flat end of the shorter >of the tip ribs (about 1.5" long). Let's see if I can do this from memory...I just did it. The short rib tab bends 90 deg so that its pointing in the same direction as the rib flange, but the bend does not start where the flange ends - check the plans. This tab gets riveted to the front of the elevator spar. The tab on the spar bends back 180 deg out from the spar flange (pointing to the rear), parallel to the short rib and along the extended edge line. This tab gets riveted to the full-length outer tip rib. Cheap ascii graphics... ll short rib ll long rib ll ll __ll --------------------- l spar ll l l l l Hope it helps... DH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1993
From: greg(at)snapper.arc.nasa.gov (greg pisanich)
Subject: Stupid Compressor Tricks
This is going off the RV charter but this seems to be a very pneumatic list. Has anyone used their compressor to feed one of the high pressure water guns? Supposedly you can use them to wash walls, strip paint, or clean parts with. They sell dedicated air compressors for this task (they don't seem to have tanks mounted, they are all compressor with what seems like piping for water and cleaner) that will put out 1500 psi. I'm hoping I can get similar results by buying a $300 compressor and a wand. It's only for home work, so perhaps it doesn't have to be that specialized. Has anyone tried this trick? Also while we are on compressors, I'm only up to 1991 on the rv-list back issues, could someone recommend a brand/level of compressor that they have been happy with (or suggest ones to avoid). Thanks for any help, Greg Pisanich '-4 plans on order. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: Stupid Compressor Tricks
Greg, Don't know about the cleaning wand trick. I am happy with my oil less Ingersol-Rand 3.3 HP. Uses new technology the piston is ceramic and the bore teflon lined. Also has special valveing where I can run it on a 117V 15A circuit. It has plenty of volume (SCFM) the pressure is only 110lbs top. The nice features are it cane run on any 15 circuit. Oil is not in the air, I use it when spray painting, I do not need an oil seperator. Also that means I do not have to change oil in the compressor. Weak point, on this particular model, I cannot change the motor voltage to 220V (220V is more efficient). I have rewired my shop for 220V but without changing the motor I am stuck at 117V. Sears sells a comparable model. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 1993
From: richards(at)atl.sofkin.ca
Subject: Compressors
Hi Folks, I have a dilemma. Do I buy a 3.5 hp/20 Gallon compressor or a 2.5 hp/ 25 Gallon compressor. The smaller tank is on a ChargePro and the larger tank is on a Sears. There is a $10 price difference. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 1993
From: greg(at)snapper.arc.nasa.gov (greg pisanich)
Subject: Compressors
>Hi Folks, >I have a dilemma. Do I buy a 3.5 hp/20 Gallon compressor or a 2.5 hp/ >25 Gallon compressor. The smaller tank is on a ChargePro and the >larger tank is on a Sears. There is a $10 price difference. >Mark Me too, I'm about to buy, which is best for this work? GP ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: Compressors
Compressors. The SCFM rating are the numbers to go by. HP just indicates how much electricty is being used Something like 750W/Hp plus how efficient is the motor. SCFM: Standard Cubic Feet Minute. There are two rating for 40 or 45 lbs pressure at the outlet and at 90 psi at the outlet. GO for the bigger numbers. That translates into how big a drill motor or whatever can be driven continuously. Doug Bloomberg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Rocky Mountain Homebuilders Forum; Oct 9th
Fellas, My chapter is sponsoring the below, Builders forum. Please pass it along to friends who might be interested. We are aiming the expertise level of the attendees at beginners and those people who are in the beginning stages. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 Rocky Mountain Aircraft Builders Forum Sponsored by EAA Chapters 43 and 301 WHEN? October 9, 1993 WHERE? Tri-County Airport (48V) Lafayette/Erie Colorado 16 NW of Stapleton Field, Denver, Colorado at Crosswinds Aviation Hanger WHO? For anyone who is building an aircraft, is considering building an aircraft, or is Looking for a lower cost alternative to flying. WHAT? Forums; Oshkosh style forums, 1hr per speaker subjects include choosing the right aircraft to build, starters&alternators, instrument hookup, alternate engine sources, speed and efficiency mods. Hands On; Hands on learning area, find out what is involved in aluminum work, gas welding, fiberglassing, engine installations, and electrical wiring. You will be able to try your hand at the various methods, determine which seems best for you and then you can make a better decision to what type plane you will build. Videos; Current videos from the different kit plane suppliers will be played continuously. Aircraft; Many Homebuilt aircraft of all types will be on display, talk to the owner/builders, get the straight talk concerning cost, time, tools needed, and skills needed to build the plane of your dreams. EAA Chapters; chapters from Colorado, Wyoming, Nebraska, New Mexico, and South Dakota will be represented. We will also have listings of chapters in other areas. (Belonging to a chapter makes building any aircraft much less difficult, you then have an experiance base to assist you.) TIME? Registration starts at 7:30AM Oct 9, the Forum will begin at 8:00 AM and conclude at 17:00 PM. The event will be held VFR or IFR. COST? $10.00 per attendee for the day. note: Homebuilders who fly in their homebuilt are FREE! CONTACT? Doug Bloomberg (dougb(at)solbourne.com) President Chapter 301 303 979-2451 *------------------------------------------------------------------------* | | | If you are an Aircraft Supplier and wish to have your literature | | available, or you would like to sell something, or you are a | | Kitplane provider we extend a invitation to join our event. | | We will Not ask for any money or percentage of your sales this is | | is free to you, only condition is what you sell has to apply to | | homebuilt aircraft. | *------------------------------------------------------------------------* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Date: Sep 14, 1993
Subject: RV-LIST Addressing Problems Resolved (?)...
Hello RVers, Sorry for all these bogus test messages of late. As our newest member, Brian Cooper, pointed out to me today, there was still a problem with the list that required some attention. I have this resolved now and everything should work fine. There are 34 active members now on the rv-list! Special Note for: Chris Moody (moody(at)cyclone.mitre.org) & Doug Medema (dougm(at)travis.csd.harris.com) If you get this message, please respond. I have come up with a different email address that is a lot more compact for you guys. Matt Dralle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1993
From: cooper(at)robotics.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Brian Cooper)
Subject: Introduction
Hi all, Well, I just got through reading the 1.3 Mb of back issues and found them quite informative. I've just located and joined an EAA chapter with a handful of RV builders and will be sending away for RV6A plans shortly. My next step will be clearing out my garage/workshop to make room for all the new fun tools I just gotta have. Seems like you all recommend a drill press, large compressor, and band saw to make life easier. When I was at Oshkosh this year at the sheet metal workshop I got to work with a pneumatic rivet squeezer. This really seemed like the most foolproof way to rivet and almost guaranteed a perfect rivet job. How many of you guys use one on their projects? If not why not? Cost? Jaw reach? Brian Cooper cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: Introduction
Brian, Welcome to Rvating. Where do you live? I use a pneumatic rivet squeezer, simular to Avery's. Avery's is a good-un. To use it you have the vary the height of the shop set. ie setting a AD470-4 vs a AD470-7 you would have to place washers under the shop set for the -4 rivets. This due to the limited area where maximum pressure is obtained for the squeezer. if you have the shop set to far away or to close you cannot squeeze the rivet. The jaw space is better than the hand squeezer for depth, but not height. Action Air Parts, in Mich. ( I can get you the number tomorrow) has really good deals on squeezers, rivet guns and drill motors. Jerry had bought the entire B-1b production line hand tools. He refurbs the squeezers and rivet guns, and the drill motors are as is (usually fine). He also has different sizes of squeezer jaws AND {I have these and the work A-OK} is a rivet set combo that has various height shop head sets. You don't have to use washers. I bought from Jerry my rivet gun for $110. Its a USTool 3X; my drill motor is an IngerSoll Rand (7AH?) 0-6000rpm with a Great feathering trigger. for $45.00 (lists for $750.00) I am really happy with both. I have heard complaints about the trigger feel on some of Avery's drill motors. This may have been corrected. To justify the cost I riveted my own spars together, saving $795.00 borrowed a friends 4X gun to do it using Avery's dimple arbor rig. You can use a hammer just as easily. One other invaluable tool, proved by how often I see mine, somebody is always borrowing it. is an electronic level. A friend, and EAA member sells them. He is Bud Aumann 303 420-6071. Get the basic module and the 4' bar. This little gem gives angles to a 1/10 of a degree. hundreds of uses. Blue Skies, Doug Bloomberg RV-6 PS Don Wentz pls send me your home address. dougb(at)solbourne.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1993
From: cooper(at)robotics.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Brian Cooper)
Subject: Re: Introduction
Doug, Thanks for the info on the pneumatic tools. I would like to get that number from you for Action Air Parts. These prices seem quite reasonable to me, and any tool good enough for the B-1b is good enough for me. To answer your question, I live in Altadena California and work at the Jet Propulsion Lab in Pasadena. By the way, I'm very close to getting my private pilot's ticket, just my long x-country and check ride to go. Exciting times .... Thanks, Brian Cooper ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1993
From: Ray Belbin <ccrdb(at)jcu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: RV-LIST Addressing Problems Resolved (?)...
On Tue, 14 Sep 1993, Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896 wrote: > > Hello RVers, > > Sorry for all these bogus test messages of late. As our newest member, > Brian Cooper, pointed out to me today, there was still a problem with the > list that required some attention. I have this resolved now and everything > should work fine. > How do I get a listing of members' E-mail addresses? > There are 34 active members now on the rv-list! > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: RV-LIST Addressing Problems Resolved (?)...
That would be nice, to have all the addresses. Thanks, Doug Bloomberg RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Pnuematic tools source
Action Air Parts 106 N Airport Drive Port Huron, Mich 48060 313 364-5885 Jerry is the owner. BTW He was present at the RV dinner and gave away some thing ??? so he is RV oriented. He sells squeezers, rivet guns, drill motors, rivet sets for the pnuematic squeezers. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 Near Denver ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Tip rib reversal on wing D section
Howdy gang, Looking at my wing I am wonder why the tip rib of the D section uses the rib from the opposite wing. IE Left wing uses W609-R on the tip. I understand why the main rib W-611 is like this (to fit the aileron bearing). But, for the life of me I cannot figure out why I have to do the same on the D section. (Best guess is it "looks better" matching the main rib) Advantages to reversing the rib: 1) Better access to the rivets when attaching the rib to the spar; 2) easier riveting of the skin to the rib (could use a squeezer); 3) more access when attaching the wing tip. I have looked at other RV wings when almost complete, and I don't see any reason to not do the wing tip rib change. Any of you see any fault in my logic? Thanks for the time. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 on a wing, and a prayer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: earlb(at)ichips.intel.com
Subject: Re: Tip rib reversal on wing D section
Date: Sep 16, 1993
Doug Bloomberg asks: > > Looking at my wing I am wonder why the tip rib of the D section uses the rib > from the opposite wing. > > Advantages to reversing the rib: 1) Better access to the rivets when attaching > the rib to the spar; 2) easier riveting of the skin to the rib (could use a > squeezer); 3) more access when attaching the wing tip. Well I suppose you might reverse it but I don't think the advantages are great and the unforseen risks are large. The rivets in that area are still very easy to buck. You also may need to move the ribs inboard slightly to make the fiberglass tip lap joint work without interfering with the rib flanges that will now be pointing the wrong way! Earl Brabandt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 1993
From: John Morrissey <mor374(at)its.csiro.au>
Subject: Re[2]: Tip rib reversal on wing D section
Earl and Doug's conversation so far: >Doug Bloomberg asks: >> >> Looking at my wing I am wonder why the tip rib of the D section uses the rib >> from the opposite wing. >> >> Advantages to reversing the rib: 1) Better access to the rivets when >>attaching >> the rib to the spar; 2) easier riveting of the skin to the rib (could use a >> squeezer); 3) more access when attaching the wing tip. >Well I suppose you might reverse it but I don't think the advantages >are great and the unforseen risks are large. The rivets in that area >are still very easy to buck. You also may need to move the ribs inboard >slightly to make the fiberglass tip lap joint work without interfering >with the rib flanges that will now be pointing the wrong way! Earl, you hit the "Rivet" right on the head!! it is installed this way to give clearance for the wing tips. I went out to a mate's place the other night and had a look at the Video on building the RV wings. Lots of good stuff, a good Video for the first time builder, It bought up a lot of good ideas I never thought of before and I'm on my second set of wings!. Happy Rivetting fella's. John Morrissey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Successful EAA Chapter 105 'Builder's Forum"!
Our chapter held their first Builder's forum last Saturday at Twin Oaks Airpark near Beaverton OR. It was fairly well organised and attended by about 70 registered (paying) prospective builders. We had welding, fabric, fiberglass and sheetmetal workshops, with hands-on teaching. We also had a range of topics covered in a panel discussion format, ranging from how to choose a project and what to do with it when finished, to FAA involvement, to insurance. I was on the panel discussing workshop hints and builder's group support with Ken Scott and another bldr's group member, Dennis Jackson. Steve Harris, myself and 2 others did the Sheetmetal workshop. It was great. Most of the attendees at the forum came through and got their hands dirty building a small piece of junk that required using many different types of skills, including 4 different types of riveting (squeezing, Avery tool and hammer, back riveting with a gun, and good ol gun and bucking bar). We answered a million questions and demonstrated our acquired skills and probably (not on purpose) sold a LOT of Avery tool kits!! Especially since Avery supplied a large stack of catalogs (free, Spruce charged us for theirs!) and we had three of his dimple tools in use. Overall it was fun and I know some guys learned not to fear aluminum and riveting. As for my RV-6 project, I only had the engine mounted for a couple of days when I realized my injection and my mount were incompatico, so I had to send the mount out to get it slightly tweaked. I got it back last week and yesterday the gear and engine went back on (yay). So, when they tell you NOT to use certain models of engines, LISTEN TO THEM. I have spent considerable time and several hundred bucks getting my O-360-A2G (rear-mount carb) to fit. The end result is a beautiful Airflow Performance Systems fuel injection installation, but what a hassle. Oh yes, I got my (gorgeous) stainless steel crossover exhaust system from Vetterman (you can't believe how little it weighs) and realized that there may be some interference with one of my intake tubes because the rear ones are longer than the front on this sump (instead same length like std sumps). I hope not, but I will be test fitting them tonite. Every piece of my anatomy that will cross, is, hoping they fit!!! How are your projects doing? dw rv-6 (new N-number on order, 993RV didn't make it!) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Solbourne.COM![S](at)intelhf.intel.com, at.ccssw_fm(at)intelhf.intel.com
Subject: Re[2]: Successful EAA Chapter 105 'Builder's Forum"!
>If your exhaust doesn't fit call Larry. When we built it we put on the same >sump you are using. Really? with the vertically stacked versus horizontally stacked intake tubes? If so, THANK YOU, I would hate to have to modify that beautiful piece of work. I show them off every chance I get. Tonite will be my first chance to fit them since my mount was off getting modified (along with the sump) when I got the system. You wouldn't happen to have a fuel injection distribution block mount (for the top of the block) laying around? I guess I have to build one. >Also I am glad to hear that your builders forum went well. Ours will be held >on oct 9 At tri-county airport (NW of Denver). I will post agenda when it is >finalized. >I hope ours goes as well as yours. It wasn't perfect, but for the scale we went for, it was good. don w. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1993
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: Progress Report on RV6A...
Due to a mail list screwup on my part, I am forwarding this to the rv-list for Gary Bataller... Matt Dralle -------------- Gary's Message ----------------- From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) Subject: progress report on rv6a Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 7:24:10 EDT Figured its time for a progress report followed by a question: Project: RV6A w/sliding-canopy-stretch windscreen, electric flaps, electric aileron and elevator trim, 0320 (150HP), Sensenich metal prop Empenage: complete Wings: complete (except top skin riveting) Aileron/Flaps: almost complete, but not happy with the mounting alignment on wings; some rework necessary Fuselage: complete from Firewall rearward Major Work Still Needed: Firewall Forward, Fuel/Electrical/Avionics, Fiberglassing, Painting So now for my question: I've never done any fiberglassing before, so I've been asking alot of questions and getting alot of DIFFERENT answers (none of these people are plane builders). Reading the literature, it sounds like either a polyester or a epoxy resin should be used for the fiberglass/aluminum finishing work. What are you guys using? It ranges from finishing the wing-tips, elevator-tips, windscreen seal, etc. I'd sure appreciate some help in this area. Also, any recommendations on specific manufacturer systems would be appreciated. Looks like the glassing work will be my Winter project. Thanks ahead of time. Gary Bataller Westboro, MA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Progress Report on RV6A...
>Figured its time for a progress report followed by a question: >Project: >RV6A w/sliding-canopy-stretch windscreen, electric flaps, electric > aileron and elevator trim, 0320 (150HP), Sensenich metal prop >Status: >Empenage: complete >Wings: complete (except top skin riveting) >Aileron/Flaps: almost complete, but not happy with the mounting alignment > on wings; some rework necessary Gary, although I think mine turned-out OK, I also found the aileron attachment a diffucult and 'scary' task. >Fuselage: complete from Firewall rearward >Major Work Still Needed: >Firewall Forward, Fuel/Electrical/Avionics, Fiberglassing, Painting >So now for my question: >I've never done any fiberglassing before, so I've been asking alot of >questions and getting alot of DIFFERENT answers (none of these people >are plane builders). Reading the literature, it sounds like either >a polyester or a epoxy resin should be used for the fiberglass/aluminum >finishing work. What are you guys using? It ranges from finishing the >wing-tips, elevator-tips, windscreen seal, etc. I'd sure appreciate >some help in this area. Basically, if it is the fiberglass parts in the kit, use polyester, that is what they are made of. If it is plexiglass, USE EPOXY, as poly will damage the plexi. > Also, any recommendations on specific manufacturer >systems would be appreciated. Looks like the glassing work will be my >Winter project. Thanks ahead of time. Find someone in your area that sells lots of plexiglass type products and they should have both types of resin and various cloths. Glassing itself is not that diffucult, the bad thing is that you can only do one 'coat' or ply, then you have to let it dry, usually overnite, before you can work on it. Just plan your jobs so you have several pieces needing work and you will get some efficiency that way. And be aware that the mixture is only workable for 10-15 minutes, so don't make too much at a time. don w. Gary Bataller Westboro, MA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 1993
From: ward(at)s1.gov (Rich Ward)
Subject: Back Riveting Wing & Fuselage Skins?
A few weeks ago I came across an almost complete RV-6 at Sonoma Valley Airport. The owner bought it last April from someone in the northwest who had built one previously. The workmanship on the plane is outstanding! One of the things that really caught my attention was the riveting on the fuselage skins; I swear they had been back riveted. Avery suggest in his catalog that some people are back riveting wing and fuselage skins. The question I have is what is the exact technique for back riveting these skins; I know how it's done on the control surfaces since I've done that and like the results. Specifically: 1. Do you use a normal bucking bar on the flat head side of the rivet? 2. Is the technique more prone to error? 3. Is it more or less time consuming? 4. Avery sells an long back riveting set with a cupped recess to keep you from sliding off the shop head; what happens when rivet set makes contact with support structure you are riveting to? My guess is you end up with a lot of smiles on these surfaces? 5. Are many people doing it? Is this a good or bad idea? -- Rich RV-4, fitting wing ribs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Back Riveting Wing & Fuselage Skins?
>A few weeks ago I came across an almost complete RV-6 at Sonoma Valley >Airport. The owner bought it last April from someone in the northwest who >had built one previously. The workmanship on the plane is outstanding! One >of the things that really caught my attention was the riveting on the >fuselage skins; I swear they had been back riveted. Avery suggest in his >catalog that some people are back riveting wing and fuselage skins. The >question I have is what is the exact technique for back riveting these >skins; I know how it's done on the control surfaces since I've done that >and like the results. Specifically: Rich, I just back-riveted the last turtle-deck skin on my RV-6 and can offer this input: > 1. Do you use a normal bucking bar on the flat head side of the rivet? Definitely NOT. Use a HEAVY bar with a large (ie. 5x5") FLAT surface. Normal bucking bars with small areas cause dimples. I used a 3x10x1" thick chunk of steel, smooth of course. > 2. Is the technique more prone to error? Not in my opinion. > 3. Is it more or less time consuming? Seemed about the same. > 4. Avery sells a long back riveting set with a cupped recess to keep >you from sliding off the shop head; what happens when rivet set makes >contact with support structure you are riveting to? My guess is you end up >with a lot of smiles on these surfaces? I haven't used one of those, but I think they are required on the wing to reach past the rib. I would try it if you have one. > 5. Are many people doing it? Is this a good or bad idea? Some people swear by it, and I agree with them. I only used it where I could. For instance, I tried making a long set for the wings and was unsuccessful so I did them the normal way (using the Avery swivel flat set, of course!). My wings look pretty good, although bucking bar technique is critical for the best results in this case. I also helped a local RV-4 builder do his wings the normal way, and they are even better than mine, so it can be done with good results. On my turtle-deck, I did the first of the 2 skins the normal way and the 2nd using back-riveting. The second is visibly smoother. One departure on this is the row of rivets where the skins overlap and rivet to the 1/8" longeron. Riveting the normal way here helps to seat the skins and their dimples into each other and the cntrsnk in the longeron. Try it, I think you will like it. -- Rich RV-4, fitting wing ribs Don w. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: looking for inputs
Hello out there in RV land. Matt, did you get my inquiry about connecting your governor with a MAC relay deck on a coolie-hat switch? Doug Bloomberg, did you get a message about me forgetting to tell Larry what sump I had when I ordered my exhausts? Inputs requested: Since I know nothing about what goes 'under the hood' on an airplane, other than basic mechanical stuff from my hot rod days, I was wondering if any of you had some recommendations. Now that I have hung the engine and begun looking more closely at it, I noticed that the spark plug wires are probably the originals (circa 1968), and some of them look awful ratty. Any replacements that are the current 'hot ticket'? What about spark plugs? I may run the ones in there for awhile then replace them once the engine is broken-in. Any particular brand/type to look for? My mags are Slicks, one is freshly rebuilt, the other several hundred hours old. I just figured I would run them until one pukes, then replace it with electronic ignition. Any recommended suppliers here? A little birdie over at Van's told me they have been running elec ign in one of the factory planes with very positive initial results. I suppose we will hear about that in the RVator soon. Helpful hint: When cutting your radio holes in the panel, DON'T use the dimensions given in the radio literature (flyers). I did and my holes are BARELY smaller than the plastic bezels on the King xpndr and KX-125. It looks marginal enough that I am cutting a plastic cosmetic filler panel that will cover the 'gaps' and give a better fit. Better to go to the local avionics shop and measure the actual units. Don Wentz RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: MORE input
Since I seem to be so good at finding-out about things after I have already done something different on my own, I thot I'd bounce a few more things off you guys. If nothing else, it might generate some traffic on the rv-list. I have a Flight-com IIS (from Van's) and when I tried to do the wiring harness for my KX-125 this weekend, I ran into some snags. The MIC outputs from the intrcom are only shield and audio, no key. When you install an in-line PTT, it actually has 2 switches/circuits: 1 that shorts the shield to the MIC KEY (tip of male jack), and another that connects the MIC audio from the intrcm to the radio MIC audio in. This basically isolates mic audio out from intrcm, allowing 2 PTT switches to be "Y"ed into a single MIC input. My problem is that the stick grips have a single contact push-button in them that only 'keys' the MIC, disallowing use of 2 PTT switches. Here are what I believe my options to be: 1> One PTT for pilot, co-pilot SOL 2> Hook both PTTs together, with a toggle to switch between pilot and copilot MIC audio. 3> Use a relay that switches pilot audio to copilot audio when copilot pushes PTT. a> Pilot would be on relay 'normally closed' position b> relay could disable pilot PTT when copilot PTT is depressed c> relay could connect KEY to shield for copilot Is there anything I missed? Any problems with the scenario's listed? I plan to use #3. I found a relay with 4 contacts that each have a NO and NC side all in one 1x1x3/4" package for $2.50. For the most part the panel and radio wiring has been easier than I thought (time-consuming, yes, difficult, no). Any local builders have a set of safety-wire pliers they would loan for a few months while I do my engine stuff? don wentz RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 1993
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Mike_R_Fredette[S]_at_ccssw_fm(at)ccm.hf.intel.com
Subject: Re: mail failed, returning to sender
> > Matt, > > Bill Benedict and I were trying to figure-out if we could hook one > of your Governor MkIIs up to the MAC coolie-hat switch on one channel and a > MAC relay on the other channel. Our problem came with determining if > your common line could go to ground or if it had to 'float' with your > unit. Have you ever looked at that type of setup? > > dw > With the Governor MkII, it is best to use the Red wire coming out of the top of the unit for making connections to Blue and Green movment wires. *Do Not* short the red wire to ground! The red wire provides a positive voltage to the Blue and Green to actuate the Governor MkII. This has caused a few problems for a couple of people who are used to wiring things in airplanes where all "activations" are done by shorting to ground. I am just about to release the new Governor MkIII. This unit is designed somewhat differently internally and provides a couple of new features including standard "short-to-ground" activation techniques, and a more robust, bullet-proof circuitry to prevent damage in the event of miswiring. It also has a really nice manual! I just shipped the last batch of Governor *MkIIs* to Van's about 2 weeks ago. I expect to have Governor MkIIIs available in about 3 weeks. They will be $57.75 each. If you are interested in purchasing a MkIII, please call: Matronics 510-447-9886 and leave a detailed message and I'll get back in touch with you regarding shipping address, payment, etc. Thanks for your support!!! Matt Dralle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 1993
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: Governor MkII Question...
> > Matt, > > Bill Benedict and I were trying to figure-out if we could hook one > of your Governor MkIIs up to the MAC coolie-hat switch on one channel and a > MAC relay on the other channel. Our problem came with determining if > your common line could go to ground or if it had to 'float' with your > unit. Have you ever looked at that type of setup? > > dw > With the Governor MkII, it is best to use the Red wire coming out of the top of the unit for making connections to Blue and Green movment wires. *Do Not* short the red wire to ground! The red wire provides a positive voltage to the Blue and Green to actuate the Governor MkII. This has caused a few problems for a couple of people who are used to wiring things in airplanes where all "activations" are done by shorting to ground. I am just about to release the new Governor MkIII. This unit is designed somewhat differently internally and provides a couple of new features including standard "short-to-ground" activation techniques, and a more robust, bullet-proof circuitry to prevent damage in the event of miswiring. It also has a really nice manual! I just shipped the last batch of Governor *MkIIs* to Van's about 2 weeks ago. I expect to have Governor MkIIIs available in about 3 weeks. They will be $57.75 each. If you are interested in purchasing a MkIII, please call: Matronics 510-447-9886 and leave a detailed message and I'll get back in touch with you regarding shipping address, payment, etc. Thanks for your support!!! Matt Dralle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Misc. Lycoming parts needed
Does anyone know a good (I mean cheap) source for Lycoming parts (used OK). Specifically I need the following: Inter-cylinder baffles for O-320-E2D. Vacuum Pump Pad cover (I'm not putting in any gyros). THere aren't any salvage yards nearby and it I would like some advise on where to get some parts cheap. Thanks, Richard Bibb RV-4 in progress (slowly at times....) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Misc. Lycoming parts needed
Try some of the engine rebuild shops: PennYan, Mattituck, Dick DeMars, TW Smith, etc. Does anyone know a good (I mean cheap) source for Lycoming parts (used OK). Specifically I need the following: Inter-cylinder baffles for O-320-E2D. Vacuum Pump Pad cover (I'm not putting in any gyros). THere aren't any salvage yards nearby and it I would like some advise on where to get some parts cheap. Thanks, Richard Bibb RV-4 in progress (slowly at times....) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 1993
From: richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca
Subject: bitmaps
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 1993
From: richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca
Subject: Bitmaps, again
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 1993
From: richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca
Subject: Groan
So much for modern technology. I'm using a shareware mail package. Obviously worth what I paid for it ! Anyone out there have a bitmap of an RV-6 ? Matte's machine only has an RV-4, RV-6A, and a Lancair (why, I'm not sure :-) Thanks Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 1993
From: John Morrissey <mor374(at)its.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: Groan
________________________________________________________________________________ Hi Mark, Yep, I will ftp the picture of my last RV to Roxanne if you like, or if you like I can send it straight to you. John So much for modern technology. I'm using a shareware mail package. Obviously worth what I paid for it ! Anyone out there have a bitmap of an RV-6 ? Matte's machine only has an RV-4, RV-6A, and a Lancair (why, I'm not sure :-) Thanks Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 1993
From: richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Groan
> >Received: from ccmgw.its.csiro.au by cc:Mail (1.30/SMTPLink) >From richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca Fri 01 Oct 1993 05:11 >X-Envelope-To: mor374(at)ccmgw.its.CSIRO.AU >Return-Path: >Received: from commsun.its.CSIRO.AU ([152.83.8.2]) by ccmgw.its.csiR (5.65c/IDA >Hi Mark, > >Yep, I will ftp the picture of my last RV to Roxanne if you like, or if you like >I can send it straight to you. > >John Might as well put it on roxanne and let everyone enjoy it! Thanks Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: comments on Oregon Aero seat cushion cores
Date: Oct 01, 1993
I'm at the point in my rv6a where making/obtaining the seat cushions is getting closer. I read a review of the Oregon Aero seat cushion core material (out of Hillsboro, OR) in the October issue of US Aviator; it was a very good review. I called up the company today and spoke to there customer rep about my project. They've dealt with several RV builders already, so I'm hoping that somebody on the net may have some experience with their product. For the RV6(A) aircraft, they sell sets of bottom/back cushion material for both the left/right seat positions; 17 x 18 inches for the bottom (2-3 inches thick) and the rear cushions sized to fit the backrest. They are asking $450 for the precut core material. After receiving it, I would need to take it to an upholstery place to have them cover it. The properties described for the core material sounds great (flame resistant, absorbs 97% of kinetic NRG, etc.). The price sounds a bit more then I had expected, but it may be worth it. Anyone have any experience with the product (or other similar products)? Thanks. Gary Bataller ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: comments on Oregon Aero seat cushion cores
Seat foam, A place in Lincoln NE sells Temperfoam, 3 layers $85 or so for an 18x16x3 set of pads. Then there is in Denver, (I will get the address next week) is Sunfoam, acts like temperfoam (conforms to shape with body heat, absorbs shock loads) A friend did his entire RV-6 for $28.00... Feels just like temperfoam. Used a knife to cut the stuff, and 3M spray adhesive to hold everything together. I'd ask for sample from diferent folks. $450 is to steep a price for my "Swedish" blood. Doug Bloomberg Ya Sure the dang airplane be in der Garage. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: comments on Oregon Aero seat cushion cores
Date: Oct 01, 1993
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
> The price sounds a bit more then I had expected, but it may > be worth it. Anyone have any experience with the product (or other similar > products)? In general, Oregon Aero stuff is too pricey for me too. Boyd Industries in Portland, Oregon may have some foam with similar properties. One other big disadvantage of the Oregon Aero foam is the weight. It's quite heavy, but I guess that's true of a lot of dense foam materials. Earl Brabandt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 1993
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: comments on Oregon Aero seat cushion cores
> I'm at the point in my rv6a where making/obtaining the seat > cushions is getting closer. I read a review of the Oregon Aero > seat cushion core material (out of Hillsboro, OR) in the October > issue of US Aviator; it was a very good review. I called up > the company today and spoke to there customer rep about my project. > They've dealt with several RV builders already, so I'm hoping that > somebody on the net may have some experience with their product. For > the RV6(A) aircraft, they sell sets of bottom/back cushion material for > both the left/right seat positions; 17 x 18 inches for the bottom (2-3 inches > thick) and the rear cushions sized to fit the backrest. They are asking > $450 for the precut core material. After receiving it, I would need to take > it to an upholstery place to have them cover it. The properties described > for the core material sounds great (flame resistant, absorbs 97% of kinetic > NRG, etc.). The price sounds a bit more then I had expected, but it may > be worth it. Anyone have any experience with the product (or other similar > products)? Thanks. This is heresay mind you, I don't know from experience, but I've heard that that stuff is great except that when it gets hot it gets very soft and loses a lot of it's cushoning properties. Might be something to look into. Mike Henderson of Flight Tech Interiors in Hillsboro does very nice custom aircraft interior work and has RV experience and experience with this type of material. Might want to give him a call for advice or whatever. I can try to dig up his number if you want. Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 1993
From: cooper(at)robotics.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Brian Cooper)
Subject: Flight Testing Paper
Hi all, I just read an informative and entertaining paper coauthored by Dick VanGrunsven on the subject of Flight Testing Homebuilt Experimental Aircraft. It was posted on the rec.aviation.homebuilt net newsgroup. It's about 10 pages long but I could post it to rvlist if folk want (or don't have access to news). Any interest? Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298 mail replies to: cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 1993
From: cooper(at)robotics.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Brian Cooper)
Subject: Van's flight test paper
Well, I've had several requests for the paper I just posted about so here it is (reprinted without permission): THE FAR SIDE (Flight Testing Homebuilt Experimental Aircraft) For Presentation At The 35TH SETP Symposium Los Angles California Chuck Berthe (AF), Calspan Corporation and Dick VanGrunsven (M), Vans Aircraft ABSTRACT When one stands at the main entrance of the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum there are just three aircraft hanging in the central hall. They are singularly true to the basic theme of their selection. As one would expect they represent important steps in aviation development; the Wright Flyer, the first successful flight of a controllable airplane; the Spirit of St. Louis, the first nonstop flight from the United States to Europe; and the Voyager; the first nonstop flight around the world. However a more important theme is that they all represent extraordinary efforts by small groups of people dedicated to the accomplishment of a seemingly impossible task. In addition all these aircraft were privately funded. Controlled by the same people who did the work, and unencumbered by bureaucratic and corporate "help", these programs were efficient and successful (this used to be the "American way", Voyager proved that it still just might be). It is also important to note that two of these aircraft were homebuilts and the other was about as close to a being a homebuilt as a factory built aircraft can be. The Wright Flyer was the ultimate homebuilt, the Spirit of St. Louis was a labor of love by a very small factory, and over fifty years later the first aircraft to fly around the earth nonstop, the Voyager, was again a homebuilt. Consequently it should not be surprising, but probably only fitting, that light aircraft aviation in this country should be saved by homebuilders. It is, in reality, a continuation of a well established tradition. This home grown movement to preserve light plane aviation in this country could use professional help. Members of this Society have provided assistance and will probably continue in increasing numbers to do so. However we should take the time to understand the unique problems associated with the kind of flight testing required. It isn't as simple as it might appear. Some comments on the subject from a test pilot that designs homebuilt aircraft, and from another who builds them, might shed more light on the subject. INTRODUCTION The character of General Aviation in the United States has changed drastically during the last fifteen years. Beginning in the early 1950's the average private aircraft was a product of the vast production facilities of Beech, Cessna, Piper, etc. Today there are virtually no affordable General Aviation aircraft available to the private aircraft owner from these or other manufacturers. The industry has turned instead, for the most part, to the production of a few but very expensive units per year for use as corporate aircraft. The reasons for this transition are many and include: shame, blame, lawyers, poor management, economics, lawyers, over conservative engineering and design, lawyers, and etcetera. Fortunately, and due to the foresight of people, such as the founders of the Experimental Aircraft Association in the l950's, the light aircraft part of General Aviation is again flourishing (and will continue to flourish if the FAA can continue to be persuaded from "helping" too much). Somehow these persistent founders convinced the bureaucrats that it was all right for individuals to build and fly their own airplanes (in other words they made the Wright Brothers legal). As a result the design of light aircraft has been allowed to leap ahead at a rate not imagined, and considered impossible, when left at the hands of the major manufacturers (a current, but incomplete, listing shows over two hundred eighty designs of homebuilt experimental aircraft flying). As a consequence today's homebuilt experimental aircraft not only provide the Sunday pilot with an affordable 60 mph puddle jumper, but also for the more experienced, designs are available that include 300 mph, high altitude, all weather aircraft that incorporate some of the leading technologies. In many cases the designers of these aircraft are developing the new technologies ahead of the traditional industry. As a consequence of the magnitude of this "homegrown" airplane movement much of the flight testing being done today is on homebuilt experimental aircraft. The down side is that much of this testing is being done by pilots who are not only untrained in flight test procedures and techniques, but are in many cases not even aware that they are conducting flight tests. The professional test pilot community can provide a valuable service to this movement by providing some of our expertise to these homebuilders. Our donations could range from an informal source of information to planning and flying their test programs. There are ample opportunities for first flights, no money, but much satisfaction to be gained by helping to save light plane aviation in this country. But before you rush off in a mad search for a homebuilder who needs a test pilot there are some things you should know about testing these seemingly simple and straight forward little machines. UNIQUE ASPECTS OF FLIGHT TESTING HOMEBUILT EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT (A BUILDER/TEST PILOT VIEW) Flight testing a homebuilt aircraft requires the same techniques and technical scope that we are used to in our professional testing. The flight envelop must be demonstrated, performance measured and documented, and the systems tested. There are some major differences from what we are normally accustomed to, and they can make it a whole new ball game. FLIGHT TEST TEAM You will not have a flight test team with its backup of specialist in flight controls, flying qualities, propulsion, avionics, and structures. The test airplane was most likely manufactured by a single person (it might even have been yourself). He was the tax payer, the customer, the contractor, the program manager, the production manager, the production staff, and what ever else it takes to make an airplane. You will be the flight test commander, flight test director, safety review board, flight test engineer, range clearance officer, and what ever else it takes to conduct a flight test program. Probably for the first time, you will be totally responsible for the entire flight test evolution. Sounds like the perfect scenario doesn't it? "Me, finally in total command of the operation and I get to do all the flying!" You also get to do all the work, and in most cases you will be all alone. You will have to analyze problems, in addition to recognizing them, and come up with a pretty good idea of how to fix them. Imagine flying a test program where you have to personally fix, and pay for, every problem you find. If you're also the builder that's the way it is. That makes it a little more difficult to maintain professional objectivity. Most of us, no matter how sensitive we think we might be, are not totally aware of how much we depend on the "support group" available to us as test pilots in our professional flight test activities. In addition to all the indispensable technical assistance we receive there is also a strong sense of moral support that we depend on. When we experience a very harrowing situation that could result in loss of the aircraft (and us), and we save the day solely due to our exceptional skill and technical knowledge, we know that the event was observed by many members of our "support group". We expect, at the very least, to have an attentive audience to hear the details at the debriefing. If we are lucky, and the support group is perceptive, we will receive some degree of praise which we will handle very professionally by pretending to minimize the importance of our actions. When one returns from a similar experience in a homebuilt there will normally be only you and the aircraft at the debriefing, and the airplane isn't very good at listening or heaping praise. If the builder is there he may not understand the skill it took to save the airplane, but he will understand quite well that their is something more to fix, and that is liable to limit his praise somewhat. Not only is there no money to be made in homebuilt testing, there are also fewer ego perks. TEST FACILITIES AND EQUIPMENT The material assets of a homebuilder are generally quite limited when compared to industry norms. The only real similarity to industry are the trade offs that must be made between requirements and available funds. The similarity ends when one counts the zeros behind the numbers in the available fund column. Flight test equipment is most often limited to cockpit instruments, timers, knee pads, and note taking items. The more sophisticated might utilize a voice recorder, and the ultra sophisticates might obtain, or make, a force gage, but the norm will be cockpit instruments and hand held data. We all know how to take hand held data, however it does increase the cockpit workload and requires a more detailed design of the flight cards. Personal experience indicates that hand writing clarity is directly proportional to the square of cockpit volume. Homebuilts are not noted for their cockpit volume. Test facilities for homebuilt aircraft vary from well appointed, heated hangers on large airports to a lean-to on a grass strip (Dick did the development testing for the RV-3 from a six hundred foot strip in his back yard). In general it will be from an uncontrolled airfield with between two and three thousand feet of grass or blacktop, with runway widths varying from twenty five to one hundred feet. Where it gets a little more interesting is when one considers the approaches to some of these facilities. A two thousand foot strip can shrink to five hundred feet usable in a hurry when there are tall trees at either end. Most of the homebuilts are somewhat portable due to their size, consequently the test pilot should be able to choose a suitable test facility within driving range of the permanent home of the aircraft. In fact he should insist on a reasonable facility. One should consider the size of the runway (as well as the approaches) as it relates to the performance of the aircraft. In addition consideration should be given to the availability of suitable landing or ditching areas in proximity to the runway (some of these engines are experimental too, and all of the engine installations are, if not experimental, at least custom). The flight test area will be specified by the FAA preliminary airworthiness certificate, however they will generally go along with any reasonably located area of twenty five miles radius requested by the builder. Consequently the test pilot will have an input as to the location (naturally, selection of the test area and that of the test facility are related). Ideally, one would prefer an area of low traffic density that was also unpopulated. These are becoming more and more difficult to find, however, an area of five miles on a side can generally be located within the overall test area that meets these criteria and can be used for the more eventful flight test procedures. The common sense rules that we adhere to in our professional work apply, i.e. don't place innocents at risk. For some of the test evolutions a chase, or at least someone on the ground with a radio, would be beneficial. Good experienced chase pilots, while plentiful in the professional arena, are rarely to be found around your local small uncontrolled airport. They become even more rare when cost of the chase plane is discussed. An additional factor unique to these operations is the time availability of those few you have found to have the required capabilities. Homebuilt testing is done during spare time. When you add the factor of Joe's wife letting him come to the airport on one of his few days off, to the other test factors of weather, aircraft availability, and your availability, your test team starts to dwindle. The best bet is to plan the flights as solo efforts and be grateful for help when it is available. UNIQUE TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS A basic requirement is that the test pilot be qualified to fly the aircraft in question. In our professional work this is rarely a problem. In the case of homebuilts it more than likely will be. The aircraft are much more simple than what we are used to, but that fact does not necessarily relate to how they are to fly. Most of them will require piloting techniques that are different than those required in our professional work. Some of the techniques will be easier and some will be more difficult. The point is that they will be different and we must prepare for that aspect and obtain some experience in these techniques prior to test flying these machines, or prior to even providing guidance to someone else that may be flying them for that matter. The word experience was used instead of training in an effort to soften the blow. If, for example, you expect to flight test a tail wheel configured aircraft, you should have "tail dragger" experience (these configurations are directionally unstable on the ground). It's not a good idea to fulfill this requirement, during a solo flight test, in an airplane that you or someone else has spent five years building. Test pilots must have detailed knowledge of the aircraft they test and most are justifiably proud of there ability to seek out and learn these details. This trait is equally appropriate to homebuilts. The difference is that this learning must be applied to basics of the aircraft that we normally take for granted. For instance: Virtually all of homebuilt aircraft are piston powered. Some use certified aircraft engines, some are modifications of certified aircraft engines, some are special purpose aircraft engines not certified, some are modified automobile engines, some are modified snowmobile engines, and some are engines designed for other purposes that were bolted in an airframe in the faint hope that they would work (they seldom do). The thing to remember is that all but the certified engines (installed in a certified manner) are experimental in nature. An experimental aircraft with a certified engine can be an interesting challenge, as can a certified aircraft with an experimental engine. An experimental aircraft with an experimental engine will definitely have a long and interesting flight test period. The bottom line is that the test pilot must know the power plant, not only technically, but also operationally. This is no different than what we are used to. The difference is that in the case of homebuilts the importance of this knowledge can be masked by the simple appearance of these little power plants. These little engines have a great bit in common with those F100 series engines that normally push you around, they both keep you in the air, that makes them equally important. Most of the engine and propeller installations will be custom, designed by the builder, as will most of the electrical systems and avionics installations. For instance, how many of us know what to inspect on an installation of a Lycoming 0360-F1A6 with a modified carburetor, a light weight starter, a Honda alternator, and an experimental crossover exhaust system all installed on a Glasair? If you don't you had better find someone who can, if you expect to test the aircraft. This is another example of our subconscious reliance on our normal support group, this time the highly skilled people who design and manufacture our airplanes. Almost all homebuilt aircraft are propeller driven. There are few current generation test pilots who have significant experience in propeller driven aircraft, and even fewer who are familiar with fixed pitch propeller performance (most of which are made of wood laminations). A fixed pitch propeller has no engine overspeed protection and is optimized for a single flight condition. One with too high a pitch may not get you off the ground in the space allotted. One with too low a pitch will overspeed at the slightest provocation. Flight through even light rain can ruin a wood propeller worth around seven hundred dollars or so. If wood propellers are not retorqued on a regular basis they can fail the attach bolts and come off in pieces of various sizes. This kind of stuff is nice to know if you are about to test one of these simple little airplanes. An experience of Dick's might help us to learn more about simple wood fixed pitch propellers: The purpose of the flight was to conduct flutter testing of the prototype RV-4 to ten percent beyond Vne. It was necessary to overspeed the fixed pitch wood propeller somewhat to achieve the high air speed required for the test. This overspeed stressed the propeller to the extent that it disintegrated (the propeller should have been able to accommodate the overspeed, however it was found to have substandard glue lines between the laminations). Due to my concentration on the flutter tests, I assumed the shaking to be due to a failure in one of the control surfaces. Only after visually checking the control surfaces and control reactions did I notice oil coming from the engine cowling. An immediate shut down of the engine revealed only short stubs of the propeller blades remaining on the hub. Since I was conducting flight tests, I had plenty of altitude and was wearing a parachute. I used the altitude, but didn't have to use the chute. There then incurred an interesting example of homebuilt flight test psychology. I had two airports available within gliding distance, my 3000 foot grass strip at home, and a 7000 foot tower controlled airport with emergency and support equipment which included an FAA GATO office. I chose the grass strip, partially because that was where my tool box was, but primarily due to fear of the bureaucratic help that I felt would certainly be thrust upon me at the larger, but safer, airport. It may well have been a poor decision on my part, unnecessary paranoia, but it does underscore the regard many of us have for the help available from the FAA." Another area that requires more than normal attention is the basic structure and construction of the aircraft. When an aircraft is tested in our professional environment the test pilot can accept as a given that the wing spar was designed and manufactured properly. In the case of homebuilts it was probably designed properly however the quality of manufacture varies. There is no such thing as "production flight test" in the case of homebuilts. Each one is different, even when two aircraft of the same design are constructed by the same person the two will be different. The test pilot must be able to inspect the structure to assure that the manufacture was according to the plans. This of course requires the test pilot to study the drawings. The unique technical requirements for flight testing homebuilt aircraft are well within the capability of the professional test pilot, however they can be in areas that we normally don't have to worry about. This requires some study on our part. Don't expect to simply drive out to the airport Sunday afternoon and test a friends homebuilt. Give it the same attention as the big iron that you will test Monday at work. UNIQUE ASPECTS OF FLIGHT TESTING HOMEBUILT EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT (A DESIGNER / TEST PILOT VIEW) DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS Historically, many of the most popular lightplanes have been the result of evolution rather than revolution. With each new design more was borrowed from the past than was innovated. While this is not the metal of which legendary designers are made, it is a good basis for developing sound, predictable airplanes. If the designer has done his job properly, his design is rather conservative, and if he also has some luck, the test pilot will have a rather straight forward, and hopefully uneventful, job. In the case of the "designer/test pilot" co-author, the genesis of the RV series of aircraft was the Stits Playboy dating back to the early 1950's. The first of the evolutionary steps were customized modifications to the basic design. This was followed by a major redesign that included an all metal wing. The first completely new design of the series was the RV-3, an all metal, single placed, low wing monoplane, with a bubble canopy. Recognition of designer limitations, and the subsequent conservative design approach, was a large factor in the success of this airplane. There was no intent to invent a new wheel, and the use of lots of wing area and large tail moments provided the intended performance and flying qualities. No changes were necessary prior to marketing the design. The RV-4, while similar in planform to the RV-3, was actually a new design incorporating a tandem dual cockpit. This design did require a one half degree reduction in tail incidence prior to marketing. The RV-6 was again a new design, a side by side version of the RV-4, that maintained the basic aerodynamic features of the previous designs. The RV-6A is a tri-gear version of the RV-6. It has been reported that the flying qualities of the RV-4 were tested, at one point, by the legendary Bob Harper who gave it a CooperlHarper rating of "Two" for the up and away flight tasks (The owner/builder, a co-author, wouldn't let him execute the landing task. Perhaps good thinking, but not a good career move, Bob was his boss). In typical fashion however, Bob noted that it wasn't a "One" because the rear control stick was a little too short. While this series of designs was quite conservative, not all homebuilt designs are. Perhaps the most successful "unconventional" series of designs are those of Burt Rutan. Today designs of this type are not considered unconventional at all. However in 1976 the Vari-EZ came as a real shock to the industry. While it certainly posed some flight test problems, it was tested by professional engineers and pilots, and in its marketed form possessed admirable flight characteristics and outstanding cruise performance. Burt's expertise in stability and control tamed the canard configuration which served as a basis for numerous other canard and tandem wing homebuilt designs which followed. Other unconventional designs have not been so successful and provided quite a challenge to the test pilots involved. It is sufficient to say that a test pilot of homebuilt aircraft must know enough of aerodynamics to be able to identify potential problems. There are some aircraft that "look good" (aerodynamically) that don't necessarily fly that way. On the other hand most that don't "look good" tend to be somewhat lacking in their flying qualities. The design quality of homebuilts can range from the through professional approach that Burt uses, to something scratched on the back of an envelop. Most of Burt's started that way, as do many designs. Just be sure that the design you are testing didn't stop, technically, at that point. SOME SPECIFIC EXAMPLES OF DESIGN IMPACT ON FLIGHT TESTING As previously discussed, there are a large number of design types currently flying as homebuilts. Some examples of flight test experiences and flight test considerations concerning some of these design variants might be in order at this point. CANARD CONFIGURATIONS Canard configurations offer some notable advantages in the area of stability and cruise efficiency. They also offer some interesting flight test experiences. Many of the canard designs utilize relatively new and highly efficient airfoil sections that maintain laminar flow over much of the surface. Unfortunately if for some reason laminar flow is not maintained, their lift characteristics can change significantly. It turns out that bugs, raindrops, and other imperfect things that happen to perfect airfoils in this imperfect world, are not at all helpful in maintaining laminar flow. A good friend of the designer co-author was the first builder to complete a homebuilt version of the Q2 aircraft. His test flying was progressing well until he decided to improve the cosmetic appearance by painting leading edge stripes on the lifting surfaces, a rather common paint scheme. On the next flight, and after a rather interesting take off, he discovered that the forward wing was unable to generate enough lift to provide the pitch attitude required for a safe landing speed. The paint line, not understanding the importance of laminar flow to this airfoil, had rather dramatically changed its lift characteristics. After a rather prolonged test flight of over three hours duration, the fuel burn had moved the center of gravity aft to the point that a marginal landing could be made. Sandpaper and polish solved the problem (until the next swarm of gnats appear). Another example of homebuilt flight test pitfalls is the four seat design called the Velocity. A number of these design had flown successfully for many hours when the flight testing of a gap seal on the canard elevator included an aft center of gravity condition. Under these conditions the aircraft entered a deep stall which was unrecoverable. The pilot remained with the aircraft as it made a vertical descent, in a flat attitude, and crashed into the water. The pilot was not injured and the aircraft was only slightly damaged. The aircraft has since been undergoing some very innovative high alpha, on the ground, testing to uncover the problem. There have been other examples of follow on testing of canard designs, after years of uneventful operation, that uncovered deep stall and flat spin modes. In some cased the designer had specifically tested for these modes and not experienced them. Canard and tandem wing designs seem to be susceptible to uncertain high alpha related aircraft responses. Sight differences in wing construction, a different method of coupling a spin entry, etc., can create new and exciting modes of falling. "UNCONVENTIONAL" CONVENTIONAL DESIGNS In the early 1970's there was a homebuilt design that provided the initial excitement that gradually became the boom in homebuilding activity whose results we enjoy today. That was Jim Bede's BD-5, an all metal low wing single placed pusher with retractable gear and a side stick controller. It was an unsuccessful design for many reasons, however it did demonstrate the fact that there was a large market base for high performance homebuilts. It also proved that it wasn't lack of technology that was keeping production general aviation aircraft in the 1930's in design innovation and performance. From a test pilot's standpoint the BD-5 was an interesting airplane. It comes close to holding the record for first flight crashes by homebuilder test pilots. It had a high thrust line, the tail was not immersed in slipstream, and the pitch control was sensitive. You can develop your own take off scenario. The Questair Venture is an excellent example of unconventional looking conventional aircraft. The immediate impression is "not enough tail length", however, if one looks more closely the tail length is not that short, the fuselage is just relatively wide. If one looks at the planform, the configuration is even more conventional. The result is an aircraft that has set a number of speed and climb records and has excellent flying qualities, the latter due in large part to a cleverly designed mechanical feel system. The test pilot of this airplane has been seen to smile a lot. Replica and scale replica historic aircraft are popular among homebuilders. Homebuilt replicas of WW-I aircraft will probably have predictable flying qualities i.e., marginal or neutral stability about an axis or two, and could be almost as demanding to fly as the originals. Replicas of WW-II fighters are almost never full size and could suffer from scale effects and relatively high wing loadings. Some of the originals of these didn't handle all that well either by today's standards. The lack of affordable jet engines has not totally deterred homebuilt designers from jet like designs. A recent example was the RANS S-11. This was not a replica of a specific aircraft but was more of a generic space age jet in appearance (after the F-117 anything appears possible), but propeller driven. The prototype was destroyed in a crash following an engine failure, however it is reported that flying qualities (difficulty in achieving a power off flare) contributed to the severity of the damage. Perhaps fly by wire shapes should have fly by wire systems. UNCONVENTIONAL CONFIGURATIONS Non-conventional stability configurations can cause problems for any test pilot, but they can be particularly hard on inexperienced homebuilder/test pilots. An early example which was successfully flown was the Baker Delta Kitten, a one of a kind homebuilt of the 1960's. It was a true delta wing airplane with a delta-like fuselage as well. Its flying qualities and performance turned out to be satisfactory, however the trim drag and the induced drag associated with low aspect ratio subsonic tailless designs limited the practicality of the design. Another tailless design of that era was the Dyke Delta. Plans for this design were marketed and several dozen were built. Not really a delta, it could best be described as a low aspect ratio flying wing. The dramatic reflex of the wing trailing edge, needed for stability, resulted in rather high landing speeds. Prior to flight testing these sorts of designs a historic data search of similar designs would probably be in order. Almost everything has been tried at least once. Lesson learned 40 or 50 years ago are still valid and can be quite useful for we younger test pilots to put in our bag of tricks. HIGH PERFORMANCE DESIGNS Probably one of the greatest challenges facing the homebuilder/test pilot today are flight characteristics of some of the higher speed kitplanes now popular. Several designs like the Glasair-III, Sweringen SX-300, and the Questair Venture are capable of speeds of 300 mph in level flight and their landing speeds and subsequent runway requirements are far above those of typical light planes. This class of airplane places the homebuilder in the arena of serious flutter consideration. Poor building techniques can have less obvious, but more serious consequences than most homebuilders are able to identify or cope with. A simple thing like not checking balance after painting can result in catastrophic flutter. These aircraft are more similar to those we test professionally. Consequently our professional experiences can be directly applicable. This is also a performance level where lack of technical backup can have the most serious consequences. Flight testing these aircraft requires the same level of technical approach that we are used to. DESIGNER "CONSTERNATIONS" A homebuilt designer has little control over his product once the plans and materials leave his shop. He can only hope that the builder follows the plans and utilizes satisfactory construction technique. A stroll down the line at Oshkosh will show that this is most likely the case. Most of the current homebuilts show better workmanship than factory airplanes. There are, however, instances of less than clever workmanship the thought of which can cause the designer many sleepless nights. There are other instances where the workmanship is fine, but the piloting skills leave something to be desired. The results are the same, the designer loses sleep. Some selected examples might serve to demonstrate the point. HOT SHOT "TEST" PLOT MEETS FLAWED HOMEBUILT An RV-3 builder, recognizing his piloting limitations, had an experienced pilot (a flight instructor) test fly his plane. The initial part of the first flight went without incident. After a few passes over the field the pilot departed the area and flew to a friends country home some twenty miles away. He then proceeded to buzz the home several times. On the last pass he made a sharp pull up and the wings departed the aircraft. The investigation of this fatal accident disclosed that the builder had used only one fifth of the wing spar rivets specified, due to misreading the drawings. As in many accidents there is plenty of blame to go around on this one, however, any one of three key people could have prevented the accident had they done their jobs properly; the builder, the FAA inspector of the aircraft, and the pilot. On how many test flights have you personally inspected the wing spar? With homebuilts it's not a bad idea. GETTING THE "BUGS" OUT An RV-4 builder assembled his airplane at the airport. After several weeks of finishing touches and waiting for the FAA inspection, he undertook the first test flight. Upon becoming airborne he noticed that there was no airspeed indication, and elected to land immediately. He attempted to lower the flaps at an excessive airspeed and bent the flap handle in the process. What followed was a series of high speed, no flap, landing approaches. Finally a successful landing was achieved. The airspeed failure was caused by bugs nesting in the pitot tube (nothing new about that). This was a situation where, given the limitations of the pilot involved, someone on the ground with a radio (perhaps one of us) could have placed the lack of urgency of the situation in proper perspective and made for a more uneventful first flight. "PREVIOUSLY OWNED" HOMEBUILTS In most instances homebuilts made from kits are of good quality and are structurally sound. However, the builder/test pilots don't always do complete limit testing. If and when the aircraft is sold, the new owner will probably assume that it has been tested and proven as one would expect from a use factory aircraft. However, even if it was built from a high quality kit, there is always a possibility of a hidden flaw. A well intentioned modification or mistake made by the builder might have escaped detection during a incomplete test program and low stress usage history of the aircraft. Dick once had an experience that illustrates the point. A friend invited him to fly a homebuilt Stits Playboy. It had been highly modified from the plans but had flown successfully for over ten years and several owners. During the flight, while executing a three "G" pull, the elevator control arm separated from the control column. To quote Dick: "Fortunately the airplane had an independent elevator trim system. However, due to a forward center of gravity the trim wasn't capable of holding the airspeed below about 1.6 V-stall. With the trim set to full nose up, the control stick held between my knees (for roll control), and using both hands to manually pull on the elevator control cable, a safe landing was theoretically possible. When I had to momentarily use one hand to close the throttle, and then double up again on the control cable, I gave up my last option. This incident taught me something about making assumptions." It was later determined that a seemingly innocent material substitution in the control column had reduced it's strength to one third of the design specification. Apparently the airplane had never been tested to high "G", nor had it been exposed to high stick forces in it's ten year history. CONCLUSIONS The authors had two specific goals in mind for presentation to this elite professional body. The first was to generate interest in providing flight test assistance to the homebuilt movement. The second was to demonstrate that this sort of "toy airplane" testing requires all the professionalism that we take to work with us, and in fact may require a more basic knowledge than we normally are required to demonstrate (inspecting wing spars for heavens sake!). That having been said we don't want to minimize the shear joy of flying some of these little airplanes. Imagine going out to airport of an evening, and for the cost of five gallons of auto fuel, jump into an airplane that will do almost any maneuver that your government iron is capable of, with the exception of dropping ordnance, but including being able to look over your shoulder on climb out and see a plan view of the airport. All this with no hardhat, mask, operations duty officer, flight schedule add on, tower chatter, radar control chatter, boundary calls, etc. Think about it. The members of this society can provide a valuable service to a part of our aviation heritage that could well become extinct. We would encourage members, who have not yet done so, to join the Experimental Aircraft Association and become acquainted with this unique movement. Take some time to learn about these little airplanes and participate. It is the only way we know of for a professional test pilot to be able to afford to own his own high performance, or just plain fun, airplane. In addition we can contribute to something important to the future of aviation in this country while having a lot of fun doing it. There's a lot of interesting, demanding, and fun testing to be done with homebuilt aircraft. Have fun, but......."be careful out there". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298 mail replies to: cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Cabin Heat
OK how did you (or someone you know) provide cabin heat for an RV-4? Some guy advertised a heat control valve in the RVATOR - Anyone have any experience with it? I have the muff for the exhaust but am looking for ideas for a)type and location for control box and b) interior routing for front and rear seat outlets. Things are getting pretty crowded up front on the firewall (both sides) so any suggestions would be appreciated. Richard Bibb rbibb(at)cisco.com RV-4 N414KT on the gear... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: Cabin Heat
Richard, Heat muff contact Larry Vetterman 303-932-0561 Air control box ditto. A guy in our chapter is making heat muffs, single or double tube(fits the RV 4 pipe systems Larry sells) cost ~ $85 The muffs have formed SS endplates, the body is Al, and the location of the inlet and exhaust are left to the user. The single systems include a carb heat muff simular to the cessna design. (The double can handle both cabin and carb heat) Another fellow (He won a Wright Trophy for his T-18 this year, so his work is goood!) makes cabin heat control boxes. they are triangular in shape, the base of the triangle is mounted on the firewall. One side of the triangle is the inlet the other the side that dumps excess heat, comes with flanges for both the box and inside the cockpit. hight is about 3" uses SS flapper valve the rest is Al. cost $50.00. It is a NICE unit MUCH better looking and better built than the box sold in Aircraft Spruce. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Radio and Loran work
I rolled my fuse out into the driveway Sunday and tested the Loran and KX-125. Both appear to be working well, intercom, PTT switches and relay, TX, RX, etc. Unable to pick-up a VOR, but I didn't have the antenna for that hooked-up. I now know that my driveway is 2.3 nm bearing 354 from Scappoose Oregon airport! I installed a spkr for the radio, which allowed me to roll back into the garage and listen to the local traffic while I worked on stuff. BTW, the Loran lost signal once back in the garage. don w. rv-6 'into the fun stuff now!' ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Oct 05, 1993
Subject: Instructions and Wing Tip Ribs
Subject: Instructions and Wing Tip Ribs To whomever was asking about why the outboard wing rib flanges point inward rather than out like the other ribs: if you turn the outboard rib the other way you will have to do some extra work to make a place to mount the outboard aileron hinge bracket (drawing 19). To whomever might be planning on following the flap riveting sequence given in the last RVator, you will have trouble driving some of the heavy rivets and you also may not get a flat flap. After riveting the bottom and top skins to the inner ribs, rivet the large angle to the spar and then the outer ribs. (Of course you will have done all your drilling with the parts held to a flat surface.) Then put the spar assembly in place in the skin assembly. Pop the spar to the inner ribs, then drive the top side skin-to-spar rivets. Now, secure the assembly upside down to a flat surface and squeeze the spar-skin-hinge rivets. Now your flap will be flat and you won't have to fight the top skin to drive the large rivets holding the stuff to the spar. The Instructions Collector F. Justice frank(at)ssd.intel.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: Instructions and Wing Tip Ribs
>To whomever was asking about why the outboard wing rib flanges point >inward rather than out like the other ribs: if you turn the outboard >rib the other way you will have to do some extra work to make a place >to mount the outboard aileron hinge bracket (drawing 19). Howdy, I was the one asking about the tip rib reversal. It was concerning only the D section rib. I understand the difficulty in main rib, (I can see why its reversed, that was never an issue) A builder I respect, Bob Brasher Waco, has done exactly that (reverse the D section tip ribs) on his last 3 RV's. Also thanks for the tip on the flap riveting a couple of folks are hung up between the directions in the last RVator and reality. Thanks for the tip, I will pass it along. Doug Bloomberg Remember "Rocky Mountain Aircraft Builders Forum" This Sat Oct 9 at Tri-County Airport, NW of Denver. 8AM to 6PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: hole in the firewall for oil filter on rv6a?
Date: Oct 08, 1993
I'm getting ready to mount my O320E2A on my RV6A. I've seen some RV6's with cutouts in the firewall for what I thought was room for the prop-governor to pass through. I understand that I may have trouble getting my oil-filter off (actually, I was told that I wouldn't be able to get in on or off!) without modifying the firewall... argh!! Tell me it ain't so. Anybody out there was additional insight. In particular, what has to be done. Also, any phone numbers/addresses on that seat core material I asked about last time. Thanks. Gary Bataller ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 1993
From: ward(at)s1.gov (Rich Ward)
Subject: Re: hole in the firewall for oil filter on rv6a?
>room for the prop-governor to pass through. I understand that >I may have trouble getting my oil-filter off (actually, I was >told that I wouldn't be able to get in on or off!) without >modifying the firewall... argh!! Tell me it ain't so. Anybody >out there was additional insight. In particular, what has to >be done. Does the same problem exits on RV-4's? I've seen a couple LongEz's out a Livermore airport that use remotely mounted oil filters. These guys actually fabricated the parts to accommodate the remote mounting; however, I recall reading a while back that it is a common installation on race cars and that the parts could simply be purchased...?? -- Rich RV4, wing skinning ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re[2]: hole in the firewall for oil filter on rv6a?
>>room for the prop-governor to pass through. I understand that >>I may have trouble getting my oil-filter off (actually, I was >>told that I wouldn't be able to get in on or off!) without >>modifying the firewall... argh!! Tell me it ain't so. Anybody >>out there was additional insight. In particular, what has to >>be done. >Does the same problem exits on RV-4's? >I've seen a couple LongEz's out a Livermore airport that use remotely >mounted oil filters. These guys actually fabricated the parts to >accommodate the remote mounting; however, I recall reading a while back >that it is a common installation on race cars and that the parts could >simply be purchased...?? >-- Rich RV4, wing skinning expect they have a dwg describing that. I saw an ad in Sport Aviation for a remote mount for an aircraft spin-on filter (very expensive tho). I plan to use an Oberg race car type. It is a stainless steel mesh filter in a finned aluminum housing. You merely take the mesh out when the remote mounted indicator light shows a reduction in flow, and clean it. There is an outfit in Seattle that STCed this unit for Bonansas and such, and tests prove it is more effective than spin-ons. They want about $400 for a unit to fit an RV (hoses and all). I found the basic unit at a local hydraulics shop (they have their own race car) for $110. They will make hoses if I want, and were also the people that pressure tested Ken Scott's (The Dummy in the RVAtor) oil lines (for free) and found one that failed at 15psi. This unit can mount wherever you want it and sounds like a good alternative to a spin-on. Of course, if your engine already has the spin-on mount, you will want to proceed with the firewall recess, probably. Mine doesn't, and a conversion to the std spin-on mount is >$300, so I will go Oberg. FYI, Tony Bingelis did an article in SA a year or two ago showing how he did the RV-6 recess. Hope this info is of some help. don w. RV-6 20369. Hooking stuff to the engine! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 1993
From: quent(at)md.fsl.noaa.gov (Quentin Johnson)
Subject: The Rocky Mountain Builder Forum was successful!
I attended the first annual Rocky Mountain Builders Forum on Oct. 9. Doug Bloomberg and gang did a fine job! I think this is the start of something good. There were about 150 attendees, which was about the right number for the size of the facility. It was held in the large FBO hangar at Tri-County airport just east of Lafayette, Colorado. This airport is populated by many home builders. It sure would be nice to have one of those homes with private hangar and taxiway! I was saddened by the sight of the Convair restaurant rotting away. The airframe is looking pretty shabby; the birds are enjoying it though. The format was modeled after Oshkosh -- work areas were set up where people could learn about welding, riveting and composite construction. Various seminars ran throughout the day and there were a couple video tape viewing areas. 5 different homebuilts were on display to prove that it can be done. (including an RV-6 which I drooled on several times :-) Tables containing vendor literature were laid out and information about all the EAA chapters in the region was available. The event ran all day from 8 to 5. The volunteers were there much earlier; it was at least a 12 hour day for them! The metal working/riveting hands-on area seemed the most popular. This isn't surprising since RVs are so popular. There, and at Oshkosh, I observed people being pleasantly surprised that riveting isn't difficult to learn. These workshops are a must for newcomers needing to see what's involved and discover that they can do it. The event was geared mainly towards introducing new and prospective home builders to the hobby. It met that goal very well although I suspect many in attendance were already hoplessly bitten by the building bug :-) It certainly helped re-light my enthusiasm! Quent Johnson quent(at)csn.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: The Rocky Mountain Builder Forum was successful!
Nice review Quent. Congratulations on what sounds like a great event, Doug. It sounds like your results were about like ours, except that you had twice as many attendees! Hope you enjoyed doing it. I know Steve Harris and i enjoyed doing the sheet metal workshop at ours. don w. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 12, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: The Rocky Mountain Builder Forum was successful!
Quent, Thanks for the great review. It's folks like yourself that make all of the work worth it. We are already planning next years builders forum, it hopefully will be a two day affair, but less hours per day. 9-5 instead of 8-6. A strange thing, we had very little information from the kitplane folks. Loehoe (sp), White Lightning, Zenair, and few brochures from Van were all we had. The tool folks on the other hand were great, Ol' Avery Enterprises, and the Orndorfs donated a LOT for our door prizes. Yep its worth doing, yep its alot of work, yep I'd advise your area to do it, yep we will do it again. Doug Bloomberg :^) RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 14, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
I am planning on installing an EGT and a CHT guage in my RV-4 panel. I am only planning on installing senders on one cylinder (the hot one) and in one exhaust pipe (the leanest one). Questions: Using the "standard" baffle kit and cowl with a O-320 engine which cylinder should I install the sender in (I believe for some reason #3)? Using a Vetterman 4-pipe exhaust system where should I install the sender and in which pipe? Richard Bibb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: must be magic (or, I feel like 'Ken the dummy')
Date: Oct 14, 1993
First, thanks for the responses on my recent questions concerning the seat cushions and the oil-filter/firewall interface. I'd like to share with you one of my more 'braindead' moments involving my rv6a construction. I just finished up squeezing a bunch of universal head (AN4-470) rivets and noticed that I needed to do a few flush head rivets. So I went over to my rivet cabinet and pulled out the proper AN4-426 draw and brought it over and put it next to the draw of AN4-470's. Can you see the mistake coming? So, I insert the 'flush' rivet and squeeze it. Looks good, but hey; its a universal head NOT a flush head! So, I yell at myself for grabbing the wrong rivet, drill out the old one, put the new 'flush' rivet it the hole and squeeze again. Arghhh!!!! It's another universal head and not a flush! I can't believe I grabbed the wrong rivet again. So, I drill it out again, but this time carefully pick the flush head rivet, inspect it, touch it, smell it, taste it, etc. until I'm sure I have the right one this time and put it in the hole and squeeze it one more time. At this point you may guess what happened next. You got it; another universal head rivet. Well, I cannot begin to describe the primival thoughts that began to explode in my head. What the heck is going on?!!! Well, if you haven't figured it out yet, at least I did. I looked at the jaws of my squeezer (the good ole Avery Tatco) and sure enough, it still had a flush on one jaw and a 1/8 cup on the other. What a jerk! So, I drilled out the third rivet, changed the 1/8 cup to a flat and life returned to normal. Turns out that squeezing a flush rivet with a cup-die (on the factory head) produces a pretty good looking universal head rivet. I guess that other then being good for livening up a dull party (and it would have to be pretty dull), you could use this technique to produce a universal head when you only have flush (just kidding; don't think it would be very strong). Frank; you may want to include this fact in your 'superinstruction' manual. But then again, who would be stupid enough to do something like this; right guys? Gary Bataller "there are two types of builders; those that have done something stupid and those that will" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Oct 14, 1993
Subject: Re: must be magic (or, I feel like 'Ken the dummy')
Turns out that squeezing a flush rivet with a cup-die (on the factory head) produces a pretty good looking universal head rivet. I guess that other then being good for livening up a dull party (and it would have to be pretty dull), you could use this technique to produce a universal head when you only have flush (just kidding; don't think it would be very strong). Frank; you may want to include this fact in your 'superinstruction' manual. But then again, who would be stupid enough to do something like this; right guys? Gary Bataller "there are two types of builders; those that have done something stupid and those that will" Great tip Gary; would you like it put in with or without a credit line? Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 14, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Re: must be magic
I've used a similar technique with Flush rivets, except I use the the flush set on the flush head and th dished cuped on the shop side. I never squeeze those 1/8" guys but this technique works great for the 3/32" rivets. Try a sample when you get home tonight... Chris. RV-6 #21390 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 14, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
amail.amdahl.com!christopher.schulte(at)juts.ccc.amdahl.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re[2]: must be magic
Don't feel bad Gary, I've done that myself. I agree with Chris about not squeezing 1/8" rivets, I always use the gun to finish them off. Fit my new Vetterman 4-pipe exhaust to my WIERDO sump last nite. He had to do a custom job to make them work but they fit great. I think the 4 pipe acually takes-up less room under the cowl as compared to the xover, which is good too. donw 20369 >I've used a similar technique with Flush rivets, except I use the the flush >set on the flush head and th dished cuped on the shop side. I never squeeze >those 1/8" guys but this technique works great for the 3/32" rivets. >Try a sample when you get home tonight... > Chris. > RV-6 #21390 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Oct 21, 1993
Subject: Request for advice
For my RV-6 instructions: Would there be any advantage to building the aileron control arm that goes from the bellcrank in the wing back to the fuselage and putting it in place as part of the basic wing construction? Is it safe to use the length dimension that is in the plans? The basic tenant of my instructions is to do everything at as early a stage as possible when it is easier to reach and to reduce the "50% of the time is in the last 10%" psychological impact. Any great ideas out there about how to secure the hinge pins on the elevator trim tab and the flaps? Should take into account reliability, ease of construction, and especially ease of removal from finished airplane. What is the absolute minimum size and shape to make the cutouts in the elevators at the hinge points? What about a very narrow slot on top side and a wider, offset slot on the bottom? Only going about halfway to the spar flange rather than all the way? Other than trading driven rivets for pop rivets I am trying to make the instructions produce something that looks as much like the plans as possible to avoid confusing new builders. The idea of turning the outboard leading edge rib around seems to be worth including. Agreed? frank(at)ssd.intel.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Request for advice
For my RV-6 instructions: >Would there be any advantage to building the aileron control arm >that goes from the bellcrank in the wing back to the fuselage and >putting it in place as part of the basic wing construction? Is it >safe to >use the length dimension that is in the plans? The basic tenant of >my instructions is to do everything at as early a stage as possible >when it is easier to reach and to reduce the "50% of the time is in >the last 10%" psychological impact. Experience says that all of these aircraft are hand-built, therefore, none of the measurements carry over exactly from one to the next. I did do the end that connects to the bellcrank and just left the unfinished inboard end sticking-out of the wing. Art Chard likes to locate the wingtip strobe in such a way that the aileron push tube can be removed/installed thru that hole in the fiberglass wing tip. >Any great ideas out there about how to secure the hinge pins on the >elevator trim tab and the flaps? Should take into account reliability, >ease of construction, and especially ease of removal from finished >airplane. I have seen things like cutting the pin a little short and crimping the hinge (not too great), or drilling a small hole and installing a cotter pin, or maybe you could thread the end of the hinge and intall a small screw in the end? I haven't finished these yet either and would welcome good ideas. >What is the absolute minimum size and shape to make the cutouts in the >elevators at the hinge points? What about a very narrow slot on top side >and a wider, offset slot on the bottom? Only going about halfway to the >spar flange rather than all the way? Depth is more the limiting factor for up travel. the WIDTH is mainly to accomodate installing the bolt. Small on top and bigger underneath is a clever idea. DON'T cut all the way back to the spar flange, it isn't necessary, as many builders have realized too late. Don W. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Date: Oct 22, 1993
From: brent(at)SSD.intel.com
Matt, Thanks for putting me on the list. I would be interested in the previous mailings. My phone number is (503) 629-6357 (work) (503) 647-5976 (home) US Mule address: Brent Baxter 27700 NW Meek Rd Hillsboro, OR 97124 Thanks, Brent ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New person ...
Date: Oct 22, 1993
From: brent(at)SSD.intel.com
My two boys and I hope to start an RV 6A sometime in the next year or so once we finish our private certificates. Michael (age 16) got a nice round of applause last night at the local EAA meeting when he told them he soloed last week. His younger brother Jeff (age 12) is the current owner of the new air compressor ... We are interested in help with fuel tansk, adivce on power options (O-320 vs O-360) and fixed vs variable pitch props. We are also intesteded in arranging the panel for cross country VFR trips (GPS, fuel mgmt, ...) Any advice for a novice? Brent ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: New person ... (fwd): forgot to mail this to the group
Date: Oct 22, 1993
________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: New person ...
Date: Oct 22, 1993
> We are interested in help with fuel tansk, adivce on power > options (O-320 vs O-360) and fixed vs variable pitch props. We are > also intesteded in arranging the panel for cross country VFR trips > (GPS, fuel mgmt, ...) > > Any advice for a novice? > You'll probably get different opinions on the engine, but I went out of my way to get an O-320E2A, which is the 150hp model. I'm not interested in a constant-speed prop (too heavy, expensive, maintenance/installation issues) and the E2A can burn 87 octane; I believe the 160hp and O-360 cannot. I opted to buy a 0 time rebuild from a highly respected local rebuild shop, who will stand by their work (locally; not long distance). As for the panel, I suggest laying it out for all the instruments and avionics, but do not cut any holes for the avionics until AFTER your flight testing is complete. What I've done is to stiffen both the instrument panel and the bulkhead foward of the panel with 1/4" angle, and also cut a rectangular, reinforced hole in the foward bulkhead (6 1/4" spacing). I plan on cutting out a corresponding rectangular hole in the panel and then reattach it with nutplate. This way, as I add avionics to the stack, its a simple matter of trimming the panel plate and installing the radio. I plan on using my KX99 handheld for the flight testing. I feel that with avionics changing so quickly (I've got my eye on that new Bendix combination GPS/COM), both prices and features, it would be foolish to commit before the plane is flying. And after the testing is complete, you may decide to rethink your VFR vs IFR decision. However, I am completly wiring the panel (breakers, switches, etc.) for my wish list, so adding the radios will have minimal impact on the plane's downtime (and no aluminum dust, thankyou). Finally, when you look at the computerized engine/instrument monitoring units, please compare the prices to the good 'ole mechanical gauges. $2300 vs. not too many hundreds is quite a consideration. But no gas or oil lines into the panel. I think remote electrical sensors are the only way to go. You'll find that the optimum radio stack is right in the middle of the panel,with plenty of room on the right for the engine-type instruments and what looks like plenty of room on the left for the instruments. But you'll find that you can't get a really 'square' matrix alignment on the 'IFR'ish, scan istruments' because of interfering structural members. You can get it pretty close, but not quite. I can only speak from the RV6A with the sliding canopy option; the hinged canopy may not have this problem. Finally (please, no flames on this), I bought a Kenwood CD/FM unit for the panel today (finally will be music in the garage tonight!). I'm putting the 6x9 speakers in the rear, upper baggage bulkhead (a bit tricky because of the accordion bulkhead). I'll have a switch to select between speakers and the intercom for the music. From past experience, I find it very relaxing on long VFR trips to have some background music. Hope to have it flying July '94. Gary Bataller RV6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank_K_Justice_at_CO1CCM1(at)co1smt1.SSD.intel.com
Date: Oct 25, 1993
Subject: Closing the wing
I am ready to close up my wing. The top skin is already riveted on and I am about to start riveting the bottom skin. I have: A conduit in place for wing-tip wiring The flap brace riveted to the rear spar The aileron hinge brackets riveted on and the aileron fitted but taken off for now The aileron gap fairing riveted on The aileron bellcrank installed, including the new gusset braces The bellcrank to aileron rod made but left off for now The main wing ribs riveted and bolted to main and rear spars The Bellcrank access opening and plate completed HAVE I FORGOTTEN ANYTHING??? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Closing the wing
Date: Oct 25, 1993
> > > I am ready to close up my wing. The top skin is already riveted on and I > am about to start riveting the bottom skin. I have: > > A conduit in place for wing-tip wiring > The flap brace riveted to the rear spar > The aileron hinge brackets riveted on and the aileron fitted but > taken off for now > The aileron gap fairing riveted on > The aileron bellcrank installed, including the new gusset braces > The bellcrank to aileron rod made but left off for now > The main wing ribs riveted and bolted to main and rear spars > The Bellcrank access opening and plate completed > > HAVE I FORGOTTEN ANYTHING??? > 1. You didn't mention the small support rib that goes under the outer aileron mount. Don't forget that one. 2. Just curious; how did you rivet on the aileron gap fairing? I'd suggest riveting the AN426-3-3 with the skin off. Then, when the top skin in place, you can: a. remove enough clecoes to reach under and buck some AN426-4-?, or b. use the poprivets as specified. I've haven't done this yet, as I'm waiting for the final fitting of the wing to the fuselage until I rivet on the top skins. 3. I'm using the Whelan strobes that have the nav/strobe/tail light on each head and with seperate power supplies for each. I didn't want the extra weight of a tail-light and strobe in the tail; RV6A's need all the weight they can get up front. The strobes will be mounted on the outer edge of each wingtip and the power supplies will be located inside the outer wing panel. I'll be cutting an access panel in the bottom outboard skin in which I'll be able to service the power supply and the strobe-head connection. Since there will be no need to ever remove the wingtip, I'll be popriveting and glassing them. I got this tip from Tom Whelan (cousin of the strobe guy); you may have seen his RV4 in pictures from Sun 'n Fun this year; he averaged 228mph. He's also in our EAA Chapter 726. Oh, I just reread your mail. I see you did the top skin first. Forget the comment about the aileron gap seal. Gary Bataller ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Frank_K_Justice_at_CO1CCM1(at)co1smt1.ssd.intel.com
Subject: Re: Closing the wing
Howdy, A question on the following... 2. Just curious; how did you rivet on the aileron gap fairing? I'd suggest riveting the AN426-3-3 with the skin off. Then, when the top skin in place, you can: a. remove enough clecoes to reach under and buck some AN426-4-?, or b. use the poprivets as specified. I've haven't done this yet, as I'm waiting for the final fitting of the wing to the fuselage until I rivet on the top skins. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Why wait, I talked to Van when he was in town in Sept. I asked him specifically if there was a problem riveting the top skins onto the wing while it was still in the jig. I referenced the builders book where it states to NOT rivet to rivet the skins until final wing fitting. Van said, "Oh I guess we take that out, it used to be we had to have access to fit the push-pull tubes for the ailerons. Yea, its probably better to rivet the skins while in the jig." Another tidbit that not documented. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 21116 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rayssd!iatc.ed.ray.com!bataller(at)uunet.uu.net, Frank_K_Justice_at_CO1CCM1(at)co1smt1.ssd.intel.com
Subject: Re[2]: Closing the wing
Gary, I used the same philosophy on my strobes: 3 in 1 at wing tip, pop-rivet tip on, small access panel on underside of wing to access strobe supplies, which I mounted to a remove able panel behind the spar. I thought drilling-out the pop-rivets would still be easier than installing all those damn nut plates, if the tip ever had to come-off. :-) don w. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Oct 26, 1993
Subject: Re[2]: Closing the wing
To Gary: Thanks for the reply. I do have the small rib in at the aileron mount. As you observed I didn't have any trouble riveting on the aileron gap fairing with the top skin but not the bottom skin already in place; I did put the fairing to top skin rivet line only about one inch rearward of the leading edge of the fairing rather than near its bend. The fairing is flexible enough that it is easy to bend out of the way to buck these rivets. Now that it is on it hugs the top skin nicely so there was no need to put the rivet line where the plans have it. Then, with the bottom skin off, it is not a problem to do the fairing-to-spar rivets. If the bottom skin is already riveted on as in the construction manual suggested sequence, the way you have described sounds like the only possible way. I would be sorely tempted to go with pop rivets and not even try to use driven rivets on the fairing-to-spar connection. Personal preference. I like the strobe power supply mounting concept and will add it to the instructions at the same place where the aileron bellcrank access hole and cover are made. I plan to do some wingtip antenna experiments so my tips will be removable; guess I had better get my power supplies now to see if I need to mount them inside the tip rib rather than outside. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 1993
From: "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.wv.tek.com>
Subject: Returned mail- Cannot send
Mail*Link(r) SMTP Returned mail: Cannot send I sent this a week ago...the darn mail subsystem just sent it back today! sorry for the late reply Frank... Reply to: RE>Closing the wing Right on Frank! This is an exciting time... Of course check for FOD in the leading edges... did you build the wing kit with the short rib between rib 11 & 12...do you have the gusset tieing the two ribs together...? don't forget to roll the leading edge of that skin panel... take your time if your doing this by yourself...you will have the skin panel rolled around your body and using both hands for riveting...go slow and patient!!! oh...how about the wing tiedown ? Pitot tube? good luck bud. Doug Miner EX-Phlogiston -------------------------------------- Date: 10/25/93 9:04 AM From: Frank_K_Justice_at_CO1CCM1@co1 I am ready to close up my wing. The top skin is already riveted on and I am about to start riveting the bottom skin. I have: A conduit in place for wing-tip wiring The flap brace riveted to the rear spar The aileron hinge brackets riveted on and the aileron fitted but taken off for now The aileron gap fairing riveted on The aileron bellcrank installed, including the new gusset braces The bellcrank to aileron rod made but left off for now The main wing ribs riveted and bolted to main and rear spars The Bellcrank access opening and plate completed HAVE I FORGOTTEN ANYTHING??? ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ (4.1/8.0) From: Frank_K_Justice_at_CO1CCM1(at)co1smt1.ssd.intel.COM Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 08:56:21 PDT Subject: Closing the wing ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 93 09:28:49 -0700 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON(at)relay.TEK.COM> Subject: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: misc RV6A stuff (wing attachment, instruments)
Date: Nov 10, 1993
Well, I attached my wings to the RV6A fuselage Monday evening with the help of my wife and two of my kids; the cuts on my hands are finally healing (watch those aluminum edges!). This is the finally assembly prior to the FINAL assembly at the airport (Orange, MA) sometime in the Spring '94. Figured I'd let you know what the problems were/are: 1. I built two custom fuselage 'stands' to support the fuselage with the wings on it. One goes under the firewall (flat top) with the other going under the F605 bulkhead (it has a flexible, V-shaped topped to match the skin shape and that point. Also used a saw-horse (with pads) somewhere near the F610 or F611 bulkhead (for balance). I made the stands so that the main and nose gear tires have about a five inch clearance to the floor. This makes it easy to manipulate the gear and mounts, but does make for a VERY high plane (I need a ladder to get into it now). When I'm done with the wing stuff, I'll take the wings off and replace them with wood spars and keep the gear on for the firewall forward work (ie. the engine). The plane is assembled in a 20 x 20 ft garage, and fits with about 2 feet to spare at the wing tips. I don't know how people can do it in a single garage. 2. I set the 1 degree angle of incidence by first setting the horizontal stab and then the wings. Using the electronic-level (thanks for the tip, Doug B.), it was real easy. Everything is set now except; each wing has a slight, forward wing sweep. I attached 'plumb-bobs' down the leading edge of each wing and then stretched a string horizontally just in front of each vertical bob. Each wing's outboard leading edge is exactly 1 inch forward of the inboard leading edge; ouch! Of course, I haven't drilled the rear-spar bolt hole yet, so I called Van's this morning for some options. I spoke to Ken and he said this forward wing sweep is very common on the RV6's; he had the same problem on his. He said an 1/8 inch or so is okay, but an inch is probably too much, although he really had nothing to really reference to say it will be a problem. What he ended up doing to his is taking out and trimming the 1/4 by 1/2 (?) spacer that seperates the 'blades' of the fuselage subassembly that mates to the rear-spar. This allowed him to get the forward sweep down to 1/8". However, he had already pop-riveted his floorboards down, so he had to drill them all out. As I mentioned previously, I decided to use nutplates, so this is not a problem for me (take note, Frank). So tonight I try to correct the problem. 3. As I mentioned previously, DO NOT rivet on the bottom forward fuselage skin until you are ready for paint. It is so convenient to crawl under the plane and pop your head up to work on the inside, rather then to make the 'over-the-top' pilgrimage. Next; I ordered/received the ISPRO gauges from Vans. Does anyone have have comments on these instruments? They are not standard 2 1/4' (I think they are 2'), and have a clamping-type attachment arrangement (kinda not too good, in my opion). I also have the Amp gauge, which has a built-in shunt. They are all made in India, and I have a less then comfortible feeling about them. The price sure is right (comparing them to others in the Spruce catalog), but I worry about reliability problems (and a possible fire in the Amp gauge). But they look nice and take up a bit less space then the 2 1/4" units. Am I being too convservative here? What I might do is use them, but lay out a 2 1/4" spacing pattern, so I can replace them later on with standard mount instruments. As a side note, I was advised to stay away from the 'IFR' brand of instruments that they carry; made in China and cheap construction. Any feedback? I'm also looking at in-the-wingtip NAV antennas. I've spoken with AEA (?), who make a 41" strip for $149. I've also seen a cheaper unit from Spruce for about $80. And I have a set of plans from the Frederick RV Forum that has one you can build for about $10, but I'd like something more professional, since it will be in a sealed wingtip. There will be a strobe in each wingtip, witht the associated powersupply nearby in the wing structure, so I'm concerned with noise being coupled in. Any suggestions? Gary Bataller ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Nov 10, 1993
Subject: Re: misc RV6A stuff (wing attachment, instruments)
Each wing's outboard leading edge is exactly 1 inch forward of the inboard leading edge; ouch! Of course, I haven't drilled the rear-spar bolt hole yet, so I called Van's this morning for some options. I spoke to Ken and he said this forward wing sweep is very common on the RV6's; he had the same problem on his. He said an 1/8 inch or so is okay, but an inch is probably too much, although he really had nothing to really reference to say it will be a problem. What he ended up doing to his is taking out and trimming the 1/4 by 1/2 (?) spacer that seperates the 'blades' of the fuselage subassembly that mates to the rear-spar. This allowed him to get the forward sweep down to 1/8". Is this the optimum solution to this problem, or is there some better way to make it come out right that could be done if it was known ahead of time? Do something with the rear spar construction? 3. As I mentioned previously, DO NOT rivet on the bottom forward fuselage skin until you are ready for paint. This will go in the instructions unless somebody knows why it shouldn't. I'm also looking at in-the-wingtip NAV antennas. I've spoken with AEA (?), who make a 41" strip for $149. I've also seen a cheaper unit from Spruce for about $80. And I have a set of plans from the Frederick RV Forum that has one you can build for about $10, but I'd like something more professional, since it will be in a sealed wingtip. I suspect that a reliable and effective antenna can be built for $10 as long as the design of the impedance matching device has been thoroughly checked out. I have two concerns, and I would like to hear from builders about both. One is how effective is a nav or comm antenna in the wingtip. Is it too directional or does it have poor pickup? Has anyone tried using an antenna in each wingtip and a signal combiner in the cockpit? I would also like to hear about any experiences with strobe light noise, whether a problem or not, and with both wingtip and fuselage mounted supplies for wingtip lights. Frank Justice ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1993
From: moody(at)cyclone.mitre.org (John C. Moody)
Subject: lower fwd fuse skin
----- Begin Included Message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Re: misc RV6A stuff (wing attachment, instruments)
. . . 3. As I mentioned previously, DO NOT rivet on the bottom forward fuselage skin until you are ready for paint. This will go in the instructions unless somebody knows why it shouldn't. I HAD ALL THE HOLES DRILLED FOR THE BOT FWD SKIN AND RELEASED THE FIREWALL FROM THE FUSE JIG AND GOT ENOUGH RELAXATION OF THE STRUCUTRE THAT THE HOLES NO LONGER LINED UP--GETTING CLECOES BACK IN REQUIRED SOME EFFORT. SINCE THIS PEICE SEEMS TO HAVE SOME STRUCTURAL VALUE, IS THERE SOME RISK IN NOT "NAILING IT DOWN" TIGHT ONCE ITS POSITION CHRIS MOODY RV6 SILVER SPRING MD ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: lower fwd fuse skin
Date: Nov 10, 1993
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
> I HAD ALL THE HOLES DRILLED FOR THE BOT FWD SKIN AND RELEASED THE FIREWALL > FROM THE FUSE JIG AND GOT ENOUGH RELAXATION OF THE STRUCUTRE THAT THE > HOLES NO LONGER LINED UP--GETTING CLECOES BACK IN > REQUIRED SOME EFFORT. SINCE THIS PEICE SEEMS TO HAVE SOME STRUCTURAL > VALUE, IS THERE SOME RISK IN NOT "NAILING IT DOWN" TIGHT ONCE ITS POSITION > > > CHRIS MOODY > RV6 > SILVER SPRING MD I have to concur with Chris. I think there are plenty of opportunities to leave skins or structures clecoed rather than riveted until later for the purpose of convenience when building the fuse. However I didn't feel very comfortable leaving too many holes unriveted; it's floppy enough when you remove it from the jig. Leaving stuff unriveted only makes it floppier. On the other hand, some builder's may report fine results. I just can't recommend it myself. Earl Brabandt RV-6 N66VR in (lately slow) progress ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Change of address
Howdy Folks, As of Nov 22 my email address will change to doug(at)ksr.com I will still be living in Colorado, by the home company is in Waltham Mass. Any RV builders near Waltham? I will be there the first 2 weeks in Dec. Blue skies, Doug Bloomberg RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: lower fwd fuse skin
Date: Nov 11, 1993
> > > I HAD ALL THE HOLES DRILLED FOR THE BOT FWD SKIN AND RELEASED THE FIREWALL > > FROM THE FUSE JIG AND GOT ENOUGH RELAXATION OF THE STRUCUTRE THAT THE > > HOLES NO LONGER LINED UP--GETTING CLECOES BACK IN > > REQUIRED SOME EFFORT. SINCE THIS PEICE SEEMS TO HAVE SOME STRUCTURAL > > VALUE, IS THERE SOME RISK IN NOT "NAILING IT DOWN" TIGHT ONCE ITS POSITION > > > > > > CHRIS MOODY > > RV6 > > SILVER SPRING MD > > I have to concur with Chris. I think there are plenty of > opportunities to leave skins or structures clecoed rather than > riveted until later for the purpose of convenience when building > the fuse. However I didn't feel very comfortable leaving too > many holes unriveted; it's floppy enough when you remove it from > the jig. Leaving stuff unriveted only makes it floppier. On > the other hand, some builder's may report fine results. I just > can't recommend it myself. > > Earl Brabandt RV-6 N66VR in (lately slow) progress > I agree that it is a structural skin and should be in place when necessary (ie. removing from jig), but I feel very comfortable with it off when the fuselage is properly seated on my fuselage stands. However, even though I have the engine mount on, I have never attached the engine. Your discussion has reminded me to clecoe the skin on when I mount the engine. With that extra weight up from, it probably would be a good idea to at least clecoe the fwd bottom skin on, but I still don't see why you would want to rivet it on. And back to my forward-swept wings: After looking closely at the rear-spar/fuse intersection last night, I find that the reason the wing can't be swept back any further is because the rear-spar attachment protruding from the fuselage is about 10/32" too long and is contacting the wing root rib. I called Van's back (spoke to Andy) and agreed it should be trimmed back, but to leave AT LEAST 5/8" material in all directions from the hole. This is also discussed in the 6/93 RVator (or was it 4/93?). It seems that the material they ship is a bit too long and is a very common problem with the initial fitting of the rv6 family. So, wings come off, trim the tabs back and put them back on (just when the cuts on my hands were healing). To be honest, I'm glad they are too long, rather then too short (that would be a major problem!), but it is a pain in the neck handling the wings. This is a CRITICAL hole, so take your time and don't even think about touching that drill until you have rechecked it many times! Gary Bataller ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: RV-6F announcement
Date: Nov 12, 1993
For those of you who haven't yet heard, there is now a new version of the RV6 family; the RV6F, which is a RV6 on floats! I have attached the mail messages (which many of you have probably seen) which talk about it. I called Van's this morning (spoke to Andy) and they confirmed it is real! The conversion consists of removing the main gear from the engine mounts and enlarging the rear-spar attachment bolt hole (boy, I'm glad I haven't drilled it yet; tonight with the help of fellow netter Scott Coyne). The hole will be larger, so more material 'clearance' is needed. Anyway, they are announcing it in the new RVator (which is about to be mailed). The phone number for Eustace Bowhay (in BC) is: 1-604-675-4428 for more info. The current conversion is for a RV6, but they are thinking about a RV6A also. I suppose Van could come out with an engine mount that would have both RV6 and RV6A features. Any netters out there attend the Portland meeting yesterday? This is real exciting! I got my seaplane rating a few years ago and would love to be able to use it on my plane. Gary Bataller Final Note: The last time I used my seaplane rating is when my Kitfox engine quit and I ditched it in a swamp (totaled). I was rated but the Kitfox wasn't. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: wanttaja(at)halcyon.com (Ronald James Wanttaja)
Subject: Wet, wild, and fast. Really fast.
Date: Nov 10, 1993
NNTP-Posting-Host: nwfocus.wa.com Talked to the owner of the one-and-only RV-6F today. RV-6F? That's an RV-6 *on floats*. Zenair kit floats, in fact. Plane looks pretty spiffy, kinda like a fat Schneider Cup racer. The builder and his partner are going to do some detailed testing (the conversion was professionally engineered) and, if everything comes out OK, they'll be selling the conversion kits. *No* structural changes required to the aircraft... the floats use the gear attach points and add a pair of fittings to the aft spar. Performance: 150 MPH at 70% power (180 Lyc w/CS prop). Off the water in 12 seconds. 1100 FPM initial climb rate. 1800-pound gross (approved by Van. I'll be writing it up for that 'lil ol' mag that buys most of my stuff. Should be out in Spring.... Ron Wanttaja wanttaja(at)halcyon.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: earlb@pdx803 (Earl Brabandt)
Subject: Re: Wet, wild, and fast. Really fast.
Date: Nov 11, 1993
In article <2bs80n$2ov@nwfocus.wa.com> wanttaja(at)halcyon.com (Ronald James Wanttaja) writes: >Talked to the owner of the one-and-only RV-6F today. > >RV-6F? That's an RV-6 *on floats*. Well now that Ron's let the cat out of the bag, (actually it was about to be let out anyway because Van's newsletter, "The RVator" just went to press with the story) I'll throw in my impressions as an RV-6 builder and recent floatplane pilot. I got a call Tuesday from Andy Hanna, a Van's employee and instrument student of mine. He knew I had just started doing business at Kenmore Air Harbor in Seattle and was a newly confirmed floatplane addict. (So much so that I've had some reservations lately about building a land-LUBBER-plane!) He said I should come on over to the factory right away to look at some pictures and a video of the RV-6 floatplane I had heard rumors about. So I jumped into my car and made the 10-minute journey from work to the Van's Aircraft skunkworks (I'm so lucky to live in "RV Country"). When I arrived, Van and the developer of the float conversion, Eustace Bowhay were engrossed in both technical and marketing discussions--a good sign; Van doesn't usually pay much attention to modifications of his designs and he's usually sensibly skeptical about such things. I immediately thought that there just might be some merit to the design if Eustace had managed to catch Van's attention! Here's what I managed to glean from the half-hour I spent hanging-out there. >Zenair kit floats, in fact. Plane looks pretty spiffy, kinda like >a fat Schneider Cup racer. Yes, Zenair 1650 floats (EDO copies I understand) so using the FAA 180% buoyancy rule (structural considerations aside), 1800 lb max. gross is about right--just slightly overfloated. The straight floatplane weighs about 160 lbs more than the land RV-6 so a maximum gross weight increase is probably in order for the non-aerobatic floatplane RV-6F. I have no idea if 1800 lbs would produce acceptable performance with engine/prop combinations other than the O-360/Hartzell CS. Certainly the CS prop provides even greater benefits to the floatplane than the landplane. >... his partner are going to do some detailed testing (the conversion >was professionally engineered) and, if everything comes out OK, they'll >be selling the conversion kits. I guess they hired the engineering services of the Canadian equivalent of a DER (Eustace lives in BC) and the job appears to have been done right. They're talking about some kind of a survey to find out what the price/demand curves look like. >*No* structural changes required to the aircraft... the floats use >the gear attach points and add a pair of fittings to the aft spar. Actually there's one minor change that could be considered structural. The rear float strut attach fittings attach to the rear wing spar at the fuse attach bulkhead. The 5/16" bolt must be replaced with a 3/8" bolt. The larger hole will make edge distance on this bolt even more critical. Edge distance here has been a problem for some builders so BE CAREFUL and "think 3/8" when you drill this hole. For an airplane that is already assembled, the fitting can be installed simply by removing the flap. Wing removal is not required. The front float struts attach to the stock engine mount after the land gear has been removed. A fin (ventral?--it's on the bottom) is attached to the stock tailspring after the tailwheel has been removed. The airplane has not flown without the fin. A couple of small holes in the rear fuse are required for water rudder cables. Once these minor airframe modifications are made, switching to floats (or back to wheels) becomes a 4-hour job. Not bad considering how many operators spend a day in the spring and a day in the fall doing this on their C-180 and C185s. >Performance: 150 MPH at 70% power (180 Lyc w/CS prop). Off the water >in 12 seconds. 1100 FPM initial climb rate. 1800-pound gross (approved >by Van. Sounds about right from what I heard and saw in the video. The airplane is back on wheels for the winter but testing will resume next year. In the video, I noticed some skipping on landing--at least I thought it was skipping, but Eustace and Jim said they plan to fix that with a change in float incidence. Maybe the landing was a touch too fast and nose-up too. It's impossible to tell from the video (I wasn't there and hey, I've only been flying floats for a month anyway). Also, nose up and fast might be a wise strategy for a first (test) flight even though it can cause skipping. Again, I'm not a floatplane test pilot and I don't even play one on TV. Interested parties are invited to the Portland Area RV Builders group tonight, Thur. Nov. 11. We'll be showing the video and photos as well as Don Wentz's RV-6 which is looking like a real airplane these days. Don will certainly have some nice panel design hints to share tonight. (Sorry about the late notice, but the video was an unscheduled program.) The meeting is at Don Wentz's House: 50641 Firredge Ave. Scappose, OR Directions: From the intersection of Hwy 30 and Cornelius Pass, 7 mi north on 30 to "Leather's Oil" gas station on right, "Custom Metal Fab" on left. Turn left onto Bonneville Drive. There is an IMMEDIATE stop sign after you turn off the Hwy. Stop, then proceed straight up the hill, take the 5th left (Firridge Ave.) and it's the first house (of two total) on the street. >I'll be writing it up for that 'lil ol' mag that buys most of my stuff. >Should be out in Spring.... No need to bother now Ron! Naw, just a joke man. I love beating Ron to the scoop :-) But Ron, what can you tell us about about the Zenair float kits? Earl Brabandt N66VR (RV-6F!!! under construction) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rayssd!iatc.ed.ray.com!bataller(at)uunet.uu.net, rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-6F announcement
Well, I made it, since it was at my house. Van brought the tape and 30+ RVers got a chance to see it on water and in the air. I agree with Earl and Ron, it looks more like a Schneider Cup racer than a std floatplane. I was very pleasantly surprised with the appearance. We have heard rumors of this project for months and us non-floaters expected a funny-looking dog of a plane, but it is nothing like that. Actually looks damn good. So will I be putting a 3/8" bolt in my rear spar? Never know.... don wentz, RV-6 790DW ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 15, 1993
From: ward(at)s1.gov (Rich Ward)
Subject: Top or Bottom Skins First?
I've got my leading edge riveted on, the fuel tank clecoed on, and have fitted and drilled my bottom skins to the left wing. After I fit and drill the top skins I'll be ready to rivet the top or bottom skins on. My dilemma is that I would like to back rivet the top skins first but I don't want to use pop rivets on the bottom skins. I've seen several references suggesting that the bottom skins can be put on last with out pop rivets. The latest was an article in the current issue (October) of The RVator entitled "Fitting Ailerons and Flaps." A good article by the way. My question is how are the bottom skins done without any pop rivets if riveted on after the top skins? I am assuming that one uses the peel-back method, but in this case, the section you are riveting is clecoed and you reach through the lightening holes of the adjacent section not clecoed. Am I correct? Does this take a particularly small or rubbery arm? It is particularly difficult to achieve good results? Is it more trouble than it is worth? -- Rich RV4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 15, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Re: RV-6F announcement
> Well, I made it, since it was at my house. Van brought the tape and 30+ RVe > got a chance to see it on water and in the air. I agree with Earl and Ron, > looks more like a Schneider Cup racer than a std floatplane. I was very > pleasantly surprised with the appearance. We have heard rumors of this proj > for months and us non-floaters expected a funny-looking dog of a plane, but > is nothing like that. Actually looks damn good. > > So will I be putting a 3/8" bolt in my rear spar? Never know.... > > don wentz, RV-6 790DW Ditto for me! I plan on poking a 3/8" hole in the back of my wing mount too! I was expecting to see some pictures of the RV-6F in the latest RV8R but no luck just some little blurb that was less info then I already know. Next question goes out to DON, Can I get a copy of the RV-6F Video to show at our next Bay Area RV Builders group meeting. It is not scheduled to con- viene again until Feb. But a good builders coordinator always plans ahead. *Boy don't let that one out* Chris. RV-6F #21390 Of coarse | I'll do water! -------| San Jose CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Nov 15, 1993
Subject: Re: Top or Bottom Skins First?
It is actually fairly easy to rivet on the top skins first for nice appearance and then rivet on the bottom skins with no pop rivets. There are some requirements. It helps to have long, skinny arms but it is not essential; now is your chance to get something going with that secretary down the hall who looks like a model. You should get the bucking bar that is about 11 inches long that looks like a tall "Z"; US Air Tools sells it for about 12 dollars. In order to do those close-together ribs in the wing walk area, pull out the first three before you rivet on the top skin. Insure that all the rivets in the rear spar that would interfere with getting them back in are set with their manufactured head inside. Procedure: Ribs are numbered 1 thru 14, with number 1 the inboard-most rib. Rivet on the top skins, aileron gap fairing, and flap brace. The latter is required only if you want to avoid pop-rivets in it, but you have to fit the flap to do this. Rivet the inboard bottom skin, starting with the skin to spar rivets between ribs 4 and 5. Reach through the lightening holes in these ribs to buck the rib 5 and the spar beyond it to the rib 6. Install ribs 3, 2, and 1 one at a time and rivet as you go. Be careful that you do not go to far or not far enough with riveting at each step. Remember to leave space for the fuselage skin attach on rib 1. Bend the skin back and reach in to buck the rest of the rivets. Do not rivet the edge of the skin to its rib. Slip the outboard skin under the inboard one and rivet there, the sileron bellcrank rib and gussets, the short rib, and the next rib out all by reaching in through the bellcrank access hole. Bend the skin back and rivet on to the tip of the wing. About 10 percent of these rivets will require a second person. While it is a little awkward to reach some of these rivets, try a few different bucking bars and arm angles on these. You will find something that works and your bottom skin will look as good as your top. Good Luck; it doesn't take much Frank Justice ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 15, 1993
From: dbloomberg(at)Solbourne.COM (Doug Bloomberg)
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-6F announcement
RVator's The RV-6F sounds great, but alas in the "Great" (sic) State of Colorado water landings/takeoffs are against the state regs, unless you own the lake. Doug Bloomberg RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 1993
From: John Morrissey <mor374(at)its.csiro.au>
Subject: Workshop Pictures???
Hi All in Rv land, I was having a bit of a look in the FTP directory of Roxanne today and nothing new seems to have been added for a long time. Anyhow I was wondering if it would be possible to post some pictures of what your workshops look like. I am always a bit curious about what you guys look like and the sorts of places you work in. For example we had one guy here in Australia built a Corby Starlet in his cellar (basement) and then he had to demolish the side of his house to get it out. I dont know what the owner of Roxanne has to say about this but its just an Idea!! Happy riviting John Morrissey Just married! and the wife is good on the bucking bar!! Working on the wings!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 1993
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: Re: Workshop Pictures???
> > Hi All in Rv land, > > I was having a bit of a look in the FTP directory of Roxanne > today and nothing new seems to have been added for a long time. > Anyhow I was wondering if it would be possible to post some > pictures of what your workshops look like. I am always a bit > curious about what you guys look like and the sorts of places you > work in. For example we had one guy here in Australia built a > Corby Starlet in his cellar (basement) and then he had to > demolish the side of his house to get it out. I dont know what > the owner of Roxanne has to say about this but its just an Idea!! > > Happy riviting > > John Morrissey > > Just married! and the wife is good on the bucking bar!! > Working on the wings!! > > This sounds *great*! What is the favorite format? I will scan a few pics of the plane and shop and stick in the bitmap dir on Roxanne. Feel free to do the same, all! Matt Dralle RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Congrats John
Date: Nov 29, 1993
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 16:20:05 PST From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896) Subject: Re: Workshop Pictures??? > Just married! and the wife is good on the bucking bar!! That's nice John, but when are you going to get her out of the bedroom and into the shop :-) Sorry, but you set yourself up for such a strafing on that one mate. Earl N66VR (RV-6 in progress) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 1993
From: John Morrissey <mor374(at)its.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: Congrats John
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Congrats John
Date: Nov 29, 1993
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 16:20:05 PST From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896) >> Just married! and the wife is good on the bucking bar!! >That's nice John, but when are you going to get her out of >the bedroom and into the shop :-) Nah! I'll just move the bed :-) Regards John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: fuel tank sender/gauges
Date: Nov 30, 1993
Well, I have another 'after-the-fact' tip for those using the Van's fuel sender/gauges. I installed the sender units in the fuel tanks as I completed the tanks. At that time I checked the 'ohm' readings at full/empty levels (actually, I did this just prior to final sealing) and adjusted the tabs so that the read the same (just a very slight tweeking was necessary). At the time I did not have the fuel gauges (I wasn't sure which to purchase). Now that I'm doing the panel, I'm accumulating all the instruments, including the Isspro fuel gauges. Last night I electrically connected them to the tanks and checked the reading. Turns out that both gauges are different. One reads 1/8 when it should be reading 0, and the other reads about 1/16 when it should be 0. Not a real big deal, but I'd like to have them read '0' when the tanks are empty. Note that it is the gauges that are different, not the tanks! So, I will be adding a appropriate resistor in series with each gauge to bring it to 0 when empty (I assume this is the way to adjust it; no help from the French senders or the Indian gauges). So, in summary; I suggest you have your fuel gauges available when you adjust your senders (prior to final sealing). An adjustment of the metal tabs is probably perferable to adding a resistor. No way you want to remove th senders once they are sealed in place. Now if I can only figure out how to route the fuel lines so that they don't come near the rudder cables (or any of the electrical connections!). Gary Bataller RV6A P.S. You know you're in the final stages of construction when the construction manual (and the plans) are of little use. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Nov 30, 1993
Subject: Re: fuel tank sender/gauges
Veeery interesting. I bought gauges and senders at the same time from Van's; only checked one set (only one tank so far). That pair gave me a good E reading but only went up to about 7/8 instead of F. I just let it be since that was not extremely misleading. By the way, I didn't use any sealing compound to install the access plate; only a cork gasket and tightening the screws carefully. It did't leak seem to leak. The construction manual didn't say anything about this except to use the cork. Any opinions out there about whether or not this will hold up? It makes it easier to remove and replace the access plate later for fuel sender maintenance or cleaning the fuel pickup. Concerning the comment about knowing you are near the end when the construction manual is no longer any help...I reached this point when I started doing the elevators. F. Justice ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 1993
From: sparker(at)tuba.aix.calpoly.edu
Subject: subscribe
Subscribe me to the list please. Sean ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: lower fwd fuse skin
>> I HAD ALL THE HOLES DRILLED FOR THE BOT FWD SKIN AND RELEASED THE FIREWALL >> FROM THE FUSE JIG AND GOT ENOUGH RELAXATION OF THE STRUCUTRE THAT THE >> HOLES NO LONGER LINED UP--GETTING CLECOES BACK IN >> REQUIRED SOME EFFORT. SINCE THIS PEICE SEEMS TO HAVE SOME STRUCTURAL >> VALUE, IS THERE SOME RISK IN NOT "NAILING IT DOWN" TIGHT ONCE ITS POSITION >> >> >> CHRIS MOODY >> RV6 >> SILVER SPRING MD > Chris: On my RV-4 (hangered and under construction at Manassas) I left the forward fuselage side skins clecoed and not riveted so I could work on the fuel system, electrical system, etc. with better access. This has presented no problems so far. I did rivet the bottom skin before I removed the fuselage from the jig though. It would have been a real pain to work on some things with the skins in place and recommend this procedure to all -4 builders - don't know about the -6 but I suspect it would work the same. Richard p.s. Give me a call some time - I'm in Reston and in the book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 1993
From: sparker(at)tuba.aix.calpoly.edu
Subject: subsrcibe
please subsrcibe me to the list. Sean ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: Closing the wing
On my -4 I riveted the bottom wing skins (and will rivet the top as well) while the wing was NOT in the jig at all. From all the measurements (and plain ol' eyeball) I did not introduce any twist or misaliagnment in the wing this way. In fact, I laid the wing across two sawhorses while I riveted the skin on right out in the bright sunshine to provide even heating of the skins which produced real tight skins once the cooled down. With the wing laid horizonal no tendancy to sag in the middle had to be braced for. The key as I see it is to have the wing very accurately jigged while drilling all those holes and the alignment takes care of itself while riveting. I was able to rivet the bottom skins alone using this technique. It worked for me. Richard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 1993
From: ward(at)s1.gov (Rich Ward)
Subject: Re: Re: fuel tank sender/gauges
>Van's; only checked one set (only one tank so far). That pair gave me a >good E reading but only went up to about 7/8 instead of F. I just let Is this because the sending unit is not centered in the tank, or just because its electrical range is 0 to 7/8 full? >By the way, I didn't use any sealing compound to install the access >plate; only a cork gasket and tightening the screws carefully. It did't >leak seem to leak. The construction manual didn't say anything about >this except to use the cork. I have the same question. I saw an rv6 wing last week (the guy that owned it didn't build it) that had ProSeal on the access panel and I noted to myself at the time that it would be a real mess to take the access panel off. I'm getting real close to riveting one of my tanks up and I've concluded that I just want to use the cork. What is typically done? -- Rich rv4 Oh, I just finished back riveting the top skins on my first wing. They turned out real nice; that long back riveting set from Avery is a wicked tool though - it is very easy to even slightly overdrive the rivet and leave a smile or mark on the spar or rib flange. One trick I discoverd was to put a piece of duct next to the rivet where the set is most likely to impact the spar or rib because of the angle of the set; as the shop head forms, you can see the set start impacting the tap and it is your signal to stop. Good feathering technique also helped alot. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re[2]: lower fwd fuse skin
Richard is right. I left the fuse side skins forward of the first rib clecoed (riveted the floor skin) and this made installing the rudder pedal assy and naca fresh air intakes easier on my -6. don w. >> I HAD ALL THE HOLES DRILLED FOR THE BOT FWD SKIN AND RELEASED THE FIREWALL >> FROM THE FUSE JIG AND GOT ENOUGH RELAXATION OF THE STRUCUTRE THAT THE >> HOLES NO LONGER LINED UP--GETTING CLECOES BACK IN >> REQUIRED SOME EFFORT. SINCE THIS PEICE SEEMS TO HAVE SOME STRUCTURAL >> VALUE, IS THERE SOME RISK IN NOT "NAILING IT DOWN" TIGHT ONCE ITS POSITION >> >> >> CHRIS MOODY >> RV6 >> SILVER SPRING MD > Chris: On my RV-4 (hangered and under construction at Manassas) I left the forward fuselage side skins clecoed and not riveted so I could work on the fuel system, electrical system, etc. with better access. This has presented no problems so far. I did rivet the bottom skin before I removed the fuselage from the jig though. It would have been a real pain to work on some things with the skins in place and recommend this procedure to all -4 builders - don't know about the -6 but I suspect it would work the same. Richard p.s. Give me a call some time - I'm in Reston and in the book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 01, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re[2]: fuel tank sender/gauges
>>Van's; only checked one set (only one tank so far). That pair gave me a >>good E reading but only went up to about 7/8 instead of F. I just let >Is this because the sending unit is not centered in the tank, or just >because its electrical range is 0 to 7/8 full? >>By the way, I didn't use any sealing compound to install the access >>plate; only a cork gasket and tightening the screws carefully. It did't >>leak seem to leak. The construction manual didn't say anything about >>this except to use the cork. >I have the same question. I saw an rv6 wing last week (the guy that owned >it didn't build it) that had ProSeal on the access panel and I noted to >myself at the time that it would be a real mess to take the access panel >off. I'm getting real close to riveting one of my tanks up and I've >concluded that I just want to use the cork. What is typically done? I prosealed mine and will probably live to regret it! Especially after all that fuel sender talk: I installed my senders then ordered the Westach 2-in-1 guage set later. We'll see.... don w. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Warnke Prop
Date: Dec 01, 1993
Well, after alot of soul-searching of tradeoffs, I made the final decision on my prop (for my RV6A) and ordered the parts. I originally was going with a wood prop, but then decided to use the metal prop that Van's is selling. Mostly due to the low maintenance and weight (gotta beef up that nose). But after hearing alot of very good things about the Warnke 'almost constant speed' wood prop, and cringing at the thought of prop-strike damage to the engine with a metal prop (oh, that would never happen) and the 2600rpm redline on the metal prop, I final made a final decision. I called Bernie Warnke (very nice, informative gentleman) and ordered a 70x72 reinforced, edge-protected, maple wood prop. I then suggested that I not buy Van's extension (which has a 6" diameter surface), but instead get the one made by Lynn Woofter, Mfg. in Florida. So I called them up and spoke to Judy, who was equally knowledgable and helpful. Their extension has a 7' diameter surface, which gets you about 30% more extension/prop contact area. She also suggested that they mill off a bit of surface material, since the bolts that Van's sells only allow the bolts to be flush with the nuts (should have a few threads extending). She volunteered to call Ken, at Van's, at see what they suggested. In case you are interested in the $numbers$, here they are: Warnke 70x72 Prop: $750 Shipping: $ 30 7" Extension: $330 7" Crush Plate: $ 48 Shipping: $ 7 The extension is more expensive that Van's, but I think the extra contact area is well worth it. Bernie says my prop should be ready in January, and the extension/plate are available now. Anyone with any knowledge with these parts? Gary Bataller ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Dec 02, 1993
Subject: Back Riveting Survey
Fellas; Rich Ward got me thinking about gathering some details on back-riveting other than doing control surfaces with the Avery tool. Please tell me about your experiences or even rumours you have heard about: What should be used as a bucking bar (how heavy, how large, etc) Does it require more or less skill with the gun or bucking bar than using a swivel-head flush set and a conventional bucking bar? (I had to drill out lots of wing rivets because my wife never could get the hang of the gun and refused to hold the bar) Do you have a problem with a gap remaining between the pieces of metal being joined after the rivet is driven? (using a plain set, not the one with the spring and collar that prevents this) Are curved surfaces a problem? Does the bar surface have to be aligned exactly with the rivet head or just in the general area? Has anyone done a wing leading edge or tank this way? If you have riveted a particular area both ways, which would you recommend? Please say whatever you can think of; future builders will appreciate it. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 02, 1993
From: ward(at)s1.gov (Rich Ward)
Subject: Re: Back Riveting Survey
> What should be used as a bucking bar (how heavy, how large, etc) When I asked the question a while back, the recommended size was 3"x5"x1". I ended up using a 2"x3"x1" (2lbs) that I finished on the flat side, and it worked very well. I also have a 3 lb bucking bar with a 2" circular bucking surface that is very slightly curved; I found it left a slight dimple on the surface compared to the perfectly flat surface of the 2"x3" bar so I stopped using it for the back riveting. > > Does it require more or less skill with the gun or bucking bar than >using a swivel-head flush set and a conventional bucking bar? More gun skill (that's you) and much less bucking skill. In fact, the bucking person only has hold the bar firmly in place while you form the shop head on the other side. Beyond wanting to get a smooth top skin, my other motivation for back riveting was that I didn't have access to a skilled bucker, and given the mechanical dexterity of my wife...well, maybe I better not say anything further about that... I had my dad spend a few days with us during Thanksgiving. We practiced on the bench for about 20 holes or so and then went to it. He did great. It took me a few holes to tame the long rivet set. It's one thing to practice on the bench, and quite another to work on the actual thing where there are angle and visual restrictions, left hand and right hand riveting, etc.... I found I couldn't back rivet the last 5 or 6 holes on the main ribs because I the bend in the rivet set was not sufficient to get the set aligned properly on the rivet, so I finished these the normal way. There is one other trick I want to pass along, and I am sure others have discovered it but I haven't seen it mentioned. I found that whether you are forward or back riveting, that if you use Scotch Removable Magic Tape (#811) on the flat head of the rivet, that the rivets come perfectly clean and unmarred without those black marks on the head. I found that no matter how clean my flat set is, that I get these black marks whenever I drive a rivet metal-to-metal. I realize that this is a pretty minor thing, but the difference using the tape is stiking > > Do you have a problem with a gap remaining between the pieces of metal >being joined after the rivet is driven? (using a plain set, not the one >with the spring and collar that prevents this) I worried about this too and I was thinking I would have to press the pieces together with a finger or two, and at the same time hold the set with one hand and the gun with the other. But I found never had to do this. The shop heads seem to form from the top and press the pieces together with no gap - this is for reasonably small gaps. > If you have riveted a particular area both ways, which would you >recommend? I've concluded that I will back rivet whenever it can be readily accommodated. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Back Riveting Survey
>Are curved surfaces a problem? Does the bar surface have to be aligned >exactly with the rivet head or just in the general area? Has anyone >done a wing leading edge or tank this way? On the fuse I noticed a tendency to get "dishing" on the more curved areas. This may or may not have been related to our technique. However, I think you would get the dishing if front riveting in that area also. The easy way to fix it is to put a 1/2" wood dowel on the shop head and strike it with a hammer, while someone hold a bucking bar near, but not quite right-on, the 'skin side' of the rivet. In fact, this method works extremely well for smoothing any rivet line that has excessive dimpling from setting the rivets, a common malady on the fuse with those thin skins and smooth curves. Earl was commenting how my skins looked better than his cause he thought I did a better riveting job. I've seen Earl's work and know it isn't better riveting, rather, it's cause I cheated and 'dressed' those rivets :-). don w. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 07, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Fuel in my fuel tank?
> >Is this because the sending unit is not centered in the tank, or just > >because its electrical range is 0 to 7/8 full? > > >>By the way, I didn't use any sealing compound to install the access > >>plate; only a cork gasket and tightening the screws carefully. It did't > >>leak seem to leak. The construction manual didn't say anything about > >>this except to use the cork. > > I prosealed mine and will probably live to regret it! Especially after > all that fuel sender talk: I installed my senders then ordered the > Westach 2-in-1 guage set later. We'll see.... > > don w. I elected for CORK in my tank. If I had to do it over again I would have NEVER made the access plate. I would only make a hole in the rib or rear baffle large enough to mount the sender. I shopped around and found, the Stwert-Warner sending units. I has not happy with the ones I've received from VANs (isopro). I made sure everything was working before sealing the tanks. I purchased the Westach 2-in-1 guage as Don did. Then I hooked everything up on the kitchen table. The tanks com pletely built except for the rear baffle. I bent and twisted the sender till I got full deflection empty to full. The Westach 2-in-1 guage has the ability to go beyond a FULL and beyond an EMPTY indication. I fix mine to be right on the marks. Of course due to the dihedral in the wing you'd have to fly about 30-45 min before you can see the need drop no matter what you do! Ok you could fix this with the long Capacitor type sender, But I don't think the extra weight cost and complexity to install it is any kind of compromise. If want to improve what you already have with out tearing down the whole airplane, you can always opt for a fuel sensor (totalizer). A friend of mine has had one on his Eagle for the last 4 years and said it has always been accurate within one tenth of a gallon at every fill up. I don't know the size of his fuel tank? I would guess around 20 Gal. Chris. RV-6 #21390 San Jose, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Dec 08, 1993
Subject: Re: Fuel in my fuel tank?
>I elected for CORK in my tank. If I had to do it over again I would have >NEVER made the access plate. I would only make a hole in the rib or rear >baffle large enough to mount the sender. Sounds like a usable idea. You would still have to make a reinforcing ring because the rib material is too thin to provide a proper seal to a plain gasket (no sealer) but it would be much simpler (square outside with a small hole in the middle). The only thing you lose is the ability to reach in later and clean crud out of the tank. Using the rib-mounted fuel strainer of the type described in the last RV-ator almost eliminates the need for this. I estimate this would save about three hours of work. Also it would be much less likely to leak later. Any comments before I put this in the instructions as an alternate? I am too far along to try it myself. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
amail.amdahl.com!christopher.schulte(at)juts.ccc.amdahl.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Fuel in my fuel tank?
>I elected for CORK in my tank. If I had to do it over again I would have >NEVER made the access plate. I would only make a hole in the rib or rear >baffle large enough to mount the sender. As I recall, I installed BOTH senders in the 2nd bay from the inboard end. The aerobatic (left) tank required that due to the flop tube, and I liked that set-up better than putting-it into the access plate, so I did the right tank the same. >I shopped around and found, the Stwert-Warner sending units. I has not >happy with the ones I've received from VANs (isopro). That was temporary while S-W was NOT able to deliver the units. You're right, the isspro units sucked, I also found the S-W units. >I made sure everything was working before sealing the tanks. I purchased >the Westach 2-in-1 guage as Don did. Then I hooked everything up on the >kitchen table. The tanks com pletely built except for the rear baffle. I >bent and twisted the sender till I got full deflection empty to full. The >Westach 2-in-1 guage has the ability to go beyond a FULL and beyond an >EMPTY indication. I fixed mine to be right on the marks. It sounds like the smart thing for me will be to take my tanks off the wings, scrape-open the access panels, and try to adjust everthing to match the guages before I ever put fuel in. This would be a good chance to put-in the better fuel pick-up that a local custom builder developed. It replaces that 'slotted and crimped tube' thing that the plans has you make, with a screened unit. >Of course due to the dihedral in the wing you'd have to fly about 30-45 min >before you can see the needle drop no matter what you do! Ok you could fix >this with the long Capacitor type sender, But I don't think the extra >weight cost and complexity to install it is any kind of compromise. Hopefully mine being slightly outboard farther will reduce that effect somewhat. I agree that the costly units have limited benefit, after all, since when has any fuel guage been accurate enough to give more than an indication of appx levels. Also, every installation is unique and each pilot gets used-to his fuel system's characteristics, so I would think the goal is to 'get close', so you get as accurate of empty level as possible, and hopefully not a 'full' indication until 1/2 the fuel is burned-off, etc. >If want to improve what you already have with out tearing down the whole >airplane, you can always opt for a fuel sensor (totalizer). A friend of >mine has had one on his Eagle for the last 4 years and said it has >always. been accurate within one tenth of a gallon at every fill up. I >don't know the size of his fuel tank? I would guess around 20 Gal. I think a 'flow meter' of some kind would be interesting to have. Any ideas on 'aftermarket' stuff that could be used? The STCed stuff is toooo spendy. I saw a neat little unit for auto use that cost $60, nice readout, flow meter and all, but it referenced everything to the speedometer cable, not a 'clock', so gpm was there but not gph. Glad this discussion came-up, it will directly cause an improvement in my project, which is what we hope to do for each other, right? dw, RV-6 20369, N790DW ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Is zero zero?
The only thing I do not like about the mounting of the level sender in the second bay is the fact that it will read empty with a good amount of usable fuel in the tank. Myself, even if I know there is 3 more gallons in a fuel tank and I could cruise another 30 mins or so... That 30 min is to much pucker factor for me! I don't like to have less then 1/8 of a tank left on the gauge... that might be 5-6 gal. I've installed the flop tube in the left wing. The flop tube installation will end up with more unusable fuel then the standard pick up devise, for this reason I wanted to place the sender in the most accurate bay for a empty indication. I can all ways run the flop tube tank down till the engine spits that the best zero fuel indication there is. Just the way I did it! Chris. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Baines <bill(at)nickel.ucs.sfu.ca>
Subject: Hi!
Date: Dec 08, 1993
Matt added me to the rv-list list last week and asked me to send a few words about myself. Here goes... I worked full time in the avation industry from 1972 thru 1983, when I just walked away from it all and took up a new career. I had been a private fixed wing pilot, Helecopter AME, avionics technician and shop manager, an owner of an Aeronca 7DC Champ, EAA member, and regular attended to Oshkosh. Recently I decided to get back into things. Resurrect my licences and look (again) into building an RV. The first RV I saw (and the last one) was the original RV-3 at Oshkosh in 1973. In the late 70's I purchased a set of plans, but never got started. A few weeks ago I posted some RV questions to net-news, and found this list. News responses were positive for the most part. I plan are to build an RV-4. I have 6 weeks of vacation (use it or loose it) that I plan to take in January, so I should get a good start on the empenage. I still have most of my tools, and am looking around for a compressor and a few other things need to get started. A couple of weekends ago I prowled around a couple of local grass fields, and managed to locate a rather sorry looking RV-3. To be honest, I began to wonder if I rembered Van's original RV as being better than it really was. The RV I found looked pretty sorry, tugging on its tie-downs in the blowing rain, and sunk up to its axles in the wet sod. Last week I contacted a local RV-3 Builder, Bryan Mertzer in White Rock. He has a 12 year old kit -- needless to say it was on hold for a long time. He is a former Pitts S1S owner, and now ownes a Piper Arrow. He started working in earnest again a couple of months ago, and has the empenage ready for inspection. He is now building his spars. Very nice workmanship. BTW he has updated plans, and several new parts from Van, so lots of the early kit shortcomings will be avoided. I also saw an O-320 on a stand in the corner of his workshop. He gave me the name of another RV builder, Brian Carr in Aldergrove, BC. I contacted Brian by phone, but we played telephone tag for a couple of days. When we finally spoke, we talked for quite a while. He is currently flying his 3rd RV-4 and has his 4th just about ready for final assembly. Brian was kind enough to spend some additional time with me on Sunday morning where I saw his 'beautiful' RV-4 called 'Bluenose III'. It is powered by an O-360 with CS prop, has a sliding canopy, electric flaps, and electric trim in all 3 axis. No IFR equipment, but a Loran, VHF, and Transponder. I was really impressed. The sliding canopy is a nice touch. Looks real good on the ground, and he says he has taken off with it open. While visiting Brian, I met an RV-6 owner Bob Boldock. His plane flew in May, and he now has a little over 50 hours on it. A real beauty also. I was surprised how nice the RV-6 looked. Its the first time I actually saw one. The Photos and Van's Info kit and video don't do it justice. (I still prefer the RV-4, but can understand the appeal of the 6). They also showed me a simililary finished RV-6a. I can't believe how great these folks are. I call out of the blue, and they have no problem spending several hours answering lots of questions -- they (no doubt) have answered several times before. My Plans. Its gonna be an RV-4... I would like to copy Brian Carr's sliding canopy I think that an O-320 will be all I can handle I was settled on a wooden prop because of the weight, but that may change. The RV-6 fellows locally have had less than great experiences with their wooden props. I may go with a CS prop, but there is lots of time ask around re this. I was also planning on manual flaps, but after seeing Brians electric flaps... Electric trim on a control stick 'chinese hat' switch is likely. I am ordering the plans this week, and hope to get the empenage kit in January. BTW there is a regional newsletter starting up here called RVBC. I was wondering if people on this list would mind me submitting occasional messages to the newsletter folks for possible inclusion. Acknowlegments will be included of course. Seems that the local folks who don't have internet access could benefit from the discussions here. Bob Buldock wrote a couple of pages describing his first flight -- I found it very interesting, he had a couple of unsettling moments, but all turned out OK. I was thinking of asking if he minded me posting it here. Any interest? Bye for now, Bill -- Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 09, 1993
From: lackerma(at)rad.rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman)
Subject: newsletters
I think bill(at)nickel.ucs.sfu.ca, our new member, has latched onto a good idea in borrowing some of the articles from other newsletters. In fact, most newsletters are composed with computer editors making it very easy to post them to this newsgroup. I am going to see if I can obtain some from the Chicago area. laurens...building is forever if you already have two jobs. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: A visit to Gary Bataller's RV-6A
Date: Dec 09, 1993
Howdy All, Dec 9, 93 My trip to Boston did have a highlight after all. Last night (Wed) I visted Gary Bataller, RV-6A builder. Gary is quite far along, infact it looks like he will be ready to start the engine installation soon. Gary's RV is the nose dragger version, with sliding roof. Goodies include, electric everything, flaps, 4 axis trim, CD player!!! The workman ship is craftsman perfect. A really GOOD job. His bird will no doubt be a contender on the fly-in Grand Champion circuit. The RV is now sitting on stands in his garage with wings installed, waiting to rivet the top skins. I was surprised to see the light surface rust that forms overnight on tools and even the engine mount. I forget that things like this can happen, Colorado is so dry we builders tend to forget this problem. Gary figures to fly by the summer. But finding an airport is difficult. A nearby one may not have hanger space available, and if it did come up co$t$ are $175+ a month. But, an old Army Air Corp base (Orange) is a 1.2 hr drive and heated hangers go for $35/mn... Given that I would go for the cheaper hanger. Considering that fixed costs will include hanger costs, insurance, and maint stuph. Saving ~$140 mn sure buys a lot of fuel. But I am getting away from Gary's pretty litle bird. What is really amazing is that he did such a great job with out haveing other RVers close by. I believe the closest builder is >50 miles away. Gary said that a lot of help and tips came from the RV builders forum in Frederick, MD each spring and from the rv group on the internet. He is now trying to figure out how to configure the engine compartment. I promised to make a video of a couple guys installation when I get back home. But if any of you have access to a video cam, and can convert to VHS for him I am sure he would like to see tapes on both engine and instrument installations(He did not put me up to this) In fact it might be a good idea to have an informal tape library of our planes and building tips that we could share. I am sure that there are more builders like Gary who have no local builders to visit and steal ideas from like I do. (Gary do I now qualify for a ride when you get the plane in the air?) Take care, Doug Bloomberg RV-6 ps Friday I will be going to Baltimore, I intend to visit George and Becky Ornidorff (sp) any thing any of you want to pass along or ask of them? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Baines <bill(at)nickel.ucs.sfu.ca>
Subject: Comments re USTool RV TOolkit??
Date: Dec 12, 1993
Would anyone care to comment on the US Tool RV Toolkit? It seems to have most of what an RV builder might need. Any comments on quality? (I note from the RV-List archive that there were some dissatisfied ATS customers a couple of years ago -- how does US Tool compare?) A comment from a local RV Builder here is that the kit has more than one needs. Agree?? Thanks, Bill... BTW in Vancouver I've been shopping around for a compressor. Cosco has a 20 Gal DeVIBLIS unit for $399 Cdn, Sears has their 25Gal unit on sale for the same price (reg $599). DeVEBLIS is known for their industrial strength compressors, but I was quite impressed with the Sears unit. Sears unit also had a slightly higher SCFM rating. Beaver Lumber is selling the DeVEBLIS unit for $550 with their own brand name on it. I'm leaning topward Sears. Comments or experiences appreciatred. -- Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: A visit to Gary Bataller's RV-6A (fwd)
Date: Dec 13, 1993
> Howdy All, Dec 9, 93 > > My trip to Boston did have a highlight after all. Last night (Wed) I > visted Gary Bataller, RV-6A builder. Gary is quite far along, infact > it looks like he will be ready to start the engine installation soon. . . (additional text omitted) . > > (Gary do I now qualify for a ride when you get the plane in the air?) > > Take care, > > Doug Bloomberg > RV-6 Well, I must thank Doug for his very complimentary review of my plane. I guess strategically placing various opaque objects over every wing-ding, before he came, really helped. Anyway, it was nice to have an experienced RV builder over (for the first time), and I got some good advise from him. Over the weekend I installed the Bob Olds landing lights. He offers a very well designed and complete kit, with good instructions. Since they go in the leading edge section of the furthest wing-bay, I decided to attach the strobe power supplies behind the lamp assembly. Now there is no reason to use screws on the wing-tips, as I can reach in through the landing light hole to service both the strobe power supplies and lights. It looks like I'll start riveting the top skins on this weekend and should have the wings off and the fuselage back on its gear by the first of the year. I'm currently looking for a local shop who can powder-coat my engine mount (per Doug's suggestion). Stay tuned... Gary Bataller on vacation 12/23-->1/3 (in my garage) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rayssd!iatc.ed.ray.com!bataller(at)uunet.uu.net, rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: A visit to Gary Bataller's RV-6A (fwd)
>Well, I must thank Doug for his very complimentary review of my plane. I >guess strategically placing various opaque objects over every wing-ding, >before he came, really helped. Anyway, it was nice to have an >experienced RV builder over (for the first time), and I got some good >advise from him. Yep, it is always good to get input from other builders. Hard to believe you are that far along and he is the first. Good for both of you! >Over the weekend I installed the Bob Olds landing lights. He offers a >very well designed and complete kit, with good instructions. NO COMMENT! About how long did the installation take? You forgot to mention if Doug was qualified for a ride... dw Gary Bataller on vacation 12/23-->1/3 (in my garage) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Happy Holidays
Just a note to all in RV Land to wish you and your families a happy holiday season. May you all enjoy the gifts of giving of yourselves in the coming year. For myself I am going to be getting back in the air this Sunday after a 12 month layoff (minor medical problem compounded with having to run the gauntlet of the FAA bureacracy in OK City) and am committing to get involved with introducing at least six kids to the wonderful world of aviation in '94 through the "Young Eagles" program. If we don't start growing our own future RVers now we may find ourselves without the ability to enjoy the freedoms we now are blessed with somewhere down the road. I am also committed to finishing my RV-4 this coming year and hope to give at least some Young Eagle flights in N414KT. Happy Holidays! Richard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 1993
From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Lights & Comments
> >Over the weekend I installed the Bob Olds landing lights. He offers a > >very well designed and complete kit, with good instructions. > NO COMMENT! About how long did the installation take? > I spent a good eight hours just installing the glass. After which I spent more time removing the plate nuts that Bob installed on the backing plate and reinstlling them in the right place so on screw is not 3/16" from the lens edge while another is 5/16". For the price paid, Over $100.00 per kit, I thought it was a stupid invest- ment. I would sugest doing it your self or seeing Don for his kit. One last comment. My lights ended up looking Very Good... I put alot of extra time into them, in my opinion if you pay that much for the kit it should look perfect without haveing to modify it. Chris. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: Lights & Comments
>For the price paid, Over $100.00 per kit, I thought it was a stupid invest- >ment. I would sugest doing it your self or seeing Don for his kit. ^^^ Just like to add that I did use Don Wentz's landing light kit (one on each side for me) and I found them to be, in engineer language, an elegant solution - well made, good value, and good looking. I have not totally completed the installation yet but am very satisfied. The reason I haven't completed the install yet is I need to trim the lenses to install them and since I am building in an unheated hanger at the airport I am waiting for spring and warm weather so I don't risk breaking the plexiglas. I've got plenty of other things to do to keep me busy until it is at least 70 degrees outside. Richard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: A visit to Gary Bataller's RV-6A (fwd)
Date: Dec 15, 1993
> >Over the weekend I installed the Bob Olds landing lights. He offers a > >very well designed and complete kit, with good instructions. > NO COMMENT! About how long did the installation take? > It actually took about 20 hours. 8 hours for each side and an additional 4 hours to fix a slight screwup (I cut the skin a wee bit too short on one side; came out okay). His estimate of 8 hours was a bit optimistic. I think it looks real nice. From your comment, sounds like you make have some negative experience with it?? > You forgot to mention if Doug was qualified for a ride... > dw Doug is obviously qualified for the ride. But as for flying to Colorado to give him one, he may have to wait a while. Last night I pretty much finished up the wing/fuselage fairing. I found that the bottom fuel-tank skin on one side was cut a bit too short, so a bit of reinforcement material had to be added (I'll do that tonight). Make sure you leave enough material for the nutplates! > > Gary Bataller > on vacation 12/23-->1/3 > (in my garage, getting a tan with my kerosene heater) > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Dec 15, 1993
Subject: Re: Lights & Comments
I spent a good eight hours just installing the glass. After which I spent more time removing the plate nuts that Bob installed on the backing plate and reinstlling them in the right place so on screw is not 3/16" from the lens edge while another is 5/16". For the price paid, Over $100.00 per kit, I thought it was a stupid invest- ment. I would sugest doing it your self or seeing Don for his kit. One last comment. My lights ended up looking Very Good... I put alot of extra time into them, in my opinion if you pay that much for the kit it should look perfect without haveing to modify it. It took me about three hours to install a Duckworks light and it looks totally cool. All you see is the glass and six little flush screws. The instructions are idiot proof and you don't need to tweak things. I also believe that it will be very durable (the lens will never crack due to stresses imposed by the mounting). The tradeoff is that changing the bulb will take a little longer (about 15 minutes). FKJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rich Ward <ward(at)s1.gov>
Subject: Nut Plates
Date: Dec 15, 1993
Hi Gang, While on trip last week to Scaled Composites, Inc., in Mojave, CA, I came across some interesting nut plates that I thought some of you might be interested in. Also, I just recently installed the nut plates for my left fuel tank, and I now have an appreciation for the dread-of- nut-plates that I have sense occasionally on the rv-list dialogue. A while back, someone stated that it was easier to drill out pop rivets on their wing tips than to install all those nut plates - and I now agree. However while at Scaled, they showed me some nut plates that they simply bond to their fiberglass or carbon fiber applications. The #8 nut plate for example, is approximately 1/2" x 3/4" and it comes with a rubber instert that is used as a rubber cleco to hold the nut plate in place during bonding, while at the sametime keeping the glue out of the hole. They are very fast to install: you drill the hole, rough up the bonding surface, apply the epoxy glue, and attach the nut plate with the rubber insert; probably a total of a minute or two. When dry, you remove the insert. They typically use them on cowlings and access covers, and they said the hold up reasonably well. One drawback, the price; they said around $2 each but the time savings was well worth it for them given the cost of labor. If anybody is interested in using these devices on their fiberglass parts, they should contact Click Bond Fastening Systems 2151 Lookheed Way Carson City, NV 89706 tel: 702-885-8000 fax: 702-883-0191 -- Rich RV4, going to try my hand at ProSeal this weekend... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Lights & Comments
Date: Dec 15, 1993
> > I spent a good eight hours just installing the glass. After which I spent > more time removing the plate nuts that Bob installed on the backing plate > and reinstlling them in the right place so on screw is not 3/16" from the > lens edge while another is 5/16". > > For the price paid, Over $100.00 per kit, I thought it was a stupid invest- > ment. I would sugest doing it your self or seeing Don for his kit. > > One last comment. My lights ended up looking Very Good... I put alot of > extra time into them, in my opinion if you pay that much for the kit it > should look perfect without haveing to modify it. > > It took me about three hours to install a Duckworks light and it looks > totally cool. All you see is the glass and six little flush screws. > The instructions are idiot proof and you don't need to tweak things. > I also believe that it will be very durable (the lens will never crack > due to stresses imposed by the mounting). The tradeoff is that changing > the bulb will take a little longer (about 15 minutes). > > FKJ > You know, there were several nut-plates on the Bob Olds kit that didn't line up. In addition, I had to replace 4 of them because the screws would screw in (the holes were crimped way too tight). Sounds like I could have saved some $$ by going with Don's, but I am happy with the installation. Also, when Doug was over last week, we talked about exhaust systems, heat muffs, etc. Sounds like Larry Vetterman is the one I'll be dealing with. Any comments before I order my pipes (Don, you don't make exhaust systems, also?). Gary B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 1993
From: John Morrissey <mor374(at)its.csiro.au>
Subject: Re[2]: Lights & Comments
>Subject: Re: Lights & Comments >I spent a good eight hours just installing the glass. After which I spent >more time removing the plate nuts that Bob installed on the backing plate >and reinstlling them in the right place so on screw is not 3/16" from the >lens edge while another is 5/16". > >For the price paid, Over $100.00 per kit, I thought it was a stupid invest- >ment. I would sugest doing it your self or seeing Don for his kit. > >One last comment. My lights ended up looking Very Good... I put alot of >extra time into them, in my opinion if you pay that much for the kit it >should look perfect without haveing to modify it. > It took me about three hours to install a Duckworks light and it looks > totally cool. All you see is the glass and six little flush screws. > The instructions are idiot proof and you don't need to tweak things. > I also believe that it will be very durable (the lens will never crack > due to stresses imposed by the mounting). The tradeoff is that changing > the bulb will take a little longer (about 15 minutes). OK I'll bite!! I have had a look back through all the RV mail I have since I joined the list and I can't find a description of Don's light kit. What do you get? How much? Where do I send my american dollars to? ________________________________________________________________________________ advertising and put a BMP picture of the kit/installation on roxanne. It would help heaps for us poor buggers in the outback!! I'm staring at my leading edge skin now and I'm trying to work out if I want to add a light. It must be cold over there since the traffic on the rv-list has gone up. I'm off for a bit of a flying holiday over X'mas, its our fun flying season over here. Have a Merry Christmas and a HAPPY New Year. (Traditional Aussie X'mas dinner - a mound of fresh seafood you can't see over and a keg of COLD beer) See ya John Morrissey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rayssd!iatc.ed.ray.com!bataller(at)uunet.uu.net, frank(at)ssd.intel.com
Subject: Re[2]: Lights & Comments
>You know, there were several nut-plates on the Bob Olds kit that didn't >line up. In addition, I had to replace 4 of them because the screws >would screw in (the holes were crimped way too tight). Sounds like I >could have saved some $$ by going with Don's, but I am happy with the >installation. Also, when Doug was over last week, we talked about exhaust >systems, heat muffs, etc. Sounds like Larry Vetterman is the one I'll be >dealing with. Any comments before I order my pipes (Don, you don't make >exhaust systems, also?). No Gary, so far just landing lights. I got my exhaust from Vetterman, which he had to build custom because of my non-standard sump. He was very helpful and I wouldn't recommend anyone else. His std exhausts are beautiful and amazingly light for being stainless steel. Thanks to all of you for your kind remarks about my LL Kits. I am switching to 1/16 plexi from 3/32, as it should provide an even better lense fit. Bonanza's use 1/16, so it should be strong enough (the hole is only 5 x 5.5 inches). Any of you who would like the new lenses let me know and I will upgrade you for the cost of shipping. Earl, I have a new double mount design to replace your 'rev A' model. John, I will work on getting a photo on the net, in the meantime, the kit was designed to be easily retrofit in a completed wing (a builder in Seattle showed me his, one in each wing, that he had installed in painted wings, and required no touch-up painting!). Van's carries the kits in the optional parts catalog (69.95 each), so if you plan to order from him in the near future, you can add the kits to that order (I have shipped to Australia, but the cost was fierce). Give me your address and I will send the info sheet and photos if you want. As I say when asked, it's not that the Bob Olds Kit is a bad kit (after all, you see them on a LOT of RVs). Rather, I wanted a smaller-cleaner hole, a lighter installation that was easier to do, and a lower cost. So far, it seems I did OK. don w. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Lights & Comments
Date: Dec 15, 1993
> >From the comments so far it seems like the way to go. How about a bit of > advertising and put a BMP picture of the kit/installation on roxanne. It would > help heaps for us poor buggers in the outback!! I'm staring at my leading edge > skin now and I'm trying to work out if I want to add a light. > > It must be cold over there since the traffic on the rv-list has gone up. I'm off > for a bit of a flying holiday over X'mas, its our fun flying season over here. > > Have a Merry Christmas and a HAPPY New Year. > > (Traditional Aussie X'mas dinner - a mound of fresh seafood you can't see over > and a keg of COLD beer) > > See ya > > John Morrissey > > John: First, I'm still at work, its late, and I'll be here a few more hours; my stomach is now growling for seafood and beer! As for the Bob Olds lights I just installed, I really have no complaints. As others have pointed out, $200 for the set might be a bit on the high side, but it wasn't that much out of line. Maybe a list of pros/cons might help. Pros: 1. Each light assembly has individual high/low beam bulbs, which can be used seperately or together (taxi/landing), depending on how much light you want. 2. The halogen bulbs are replaceable; nice to be able to carry spare bulbs, although probably not a real concern either way. 3. The lens assembly is rather thick and is prebent; mine matched my wing contour exactly. They look very sturdy, so I was surprised to hear someone mention 'cracking'. 4. The lens has alot of area on the bottom of the leading edge, so alot of light will be thrown in the correct direction. Down and forward. 5. The light assembly is easily removed for maintenance. It also leaves a big enough hole to slip my strobe power supply in and out. I have the supply mounted aft of the light assembly, attached to the wing spar web in the last wing bay. I can also reach into the wing tip to service the strobe light assembly. This means I can fiberglass the wing-tip closed, since there would be no need to take it off. I really like this arrangement. 6. I thought the instructions were good; 2 pages of general info, 2 pages of detailed instructions, about 7 black/white photos and a color-glossy photo of a final assembly. The slight error I made was my fault. I'm satisfied with the installation. 7. Other then the cutting of the leading edge skin (and fixing my screwup), all the cutting, bending, riveting (of the assembly) and the nutplating (I'd put this in the 'cons' list) is already done. Cons: 1. The price is a bit high. You could probably buy all the material yourself for about $75. If you had some drawings, and could accurately bend the lenses material, you could save some $$. I don't know how to accurately bend this thick plastic. 2. As mentioned, some of the nutplates were not lined up. This is cosmetic and didn't bother me. But for the money, it probably should be done a bit more precisely. I wonder if anyone has given him this feedback. Seems like an easy thing to fix (I assume he has a jig of some sort). 3. What did bother me was that 4 nutplates were unusable, and had to be drilled out and replaced. I took me about 10 minutes for the complete repair. The screw channels were overcrimped; I've never run across this before. Seems like he's getting some bad nutplates. 4. The final alignment is done during flight testing. It would be nice if some sort of alignment template could be included for each RV type so a future alignment would not be necessary. Also, a sliding-screw adjustment would be better than the riveting that is used to lockin the final alignment. Not a big deal, though. For me, the best time to install the lights was when the leading edges were installed on the wings. I waited since I wanted to get the best placement of the power supplies. However, you could mount them as soon as the leading edge is complete. But accessibility was not at all an issue with an already mounted leading edge. My final comment is that I'd do it again on my next plane. I wasn't impressed by any of the wingtip mounted units; in particular their light projection pattern. But, I haven't seen Don's units. Sure would be nice if there were a central place we could post our experiences with RV equipment, for current and future RV'ers to read. For Don: The latest issue of Sport Aviation has a Tony B. article on landing lights. Was one of your units displayed? Gary B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 1993
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Subject: Study those plans!
Most of you are a bit farther along than I, but I'm posting this for anyone else who might come along. My -4 spars are coming along pretty well, but I do miss the details that the revised tail manual included. One thing that almost caught me: When fitting stiffener angles to the spar flange, DON'T FORGET THE TIEDOWN FITTING MOUNT (W-422). This piece is only shown on the overall plan (DWG 12?) as a center mark, and not shown again until the detail sheet (DWG 18?). The spar drawings don't address it at all, the detail sheet does not make it obvious that it attaches to a spar stiffener, and it might as well not be on the overall plan at all for all the good that drawing does. If you rivet the stiffeners in place and then try to fit the tiedown fitting, you'll either need a small and strong angle drill or lots of luck. So the moral is to _really_ study the plans before doing anything permanent. I thought I had, but this one almost got me. John Morrissey wrote: >I'm off for a bit of a flying holiday over X'mas, its our fun >flying season over here... >(Traditional Aussie X'mas dinner - a mound of fresh seafood you >can't see over and a keg of COLD beer) WAS THIS COMMENT REALLY NECESSARY?! Go on, John. Just rub it in. :) Merry Christmas, Dave Hyde davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Justice <frank(at)SSD.intel.com>
Date: Dec 16, 1993
Subject: Re: Study those plans!
> If you rivet the stiffeners in >place and then try to fit the tiedown fitting, you'll either need >a small and strong angle drill or lots of luck. > >So the moral is to _really_ study the plans before doing anything >permanent. I thought I had, but this one almost got me. Dave: You have just hit upon my biggest gripe about the RV construction manual and the reason I started writing my own instructions to supplement it. Ken Scott, who does the writing for Van's, has stated on numerous occasions that it is the builder's responsibility to look at all the sheets of the drawings for any items that may affect what he is doing at the moment. I feel that this is absurd when you have over 50 drawings all crammed full of details which may not necessarily relate to others on the same page. I won't complain about the drawings themselves; they were done by hand and many details have been added since the originals were done. A cleanup would probably just introduce a lot of errors. It doesn't look to me like you are taking anything away from a builder by telling him that he should drill the tiedown mount to the stiffener first. Another example we know well is the item about the nutplates on the bottom of the wing for the fuselage skin, so everybody has to go back and drill out a bunch of rivets and then try to drill through a skin to hit some holes they can't see. I have been gently pushing on Van's to do something with what I have written (the wing instructions are now complete) but no luck so far. What do the rest of you think? Would you like to have a set of instructions that saved you from having to spend any time deciding what order to do things in? That allowed you to build a wing with no more than about six pop rivets (other than the main spar to rib ones that can't be done otherwise)? That kept you from ever having to drill out a rivet so you could do some other operation? That cut in half the number of times you have to assemble and disassemble items? That eliminate the need for riveting with an offset set? I don't think giving a builder this information will lessen his satisfaction with his project at all, and I don't think keeping it from him will make him a better builder. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 1993
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Subject: Re: Study those plans!
>Ken Scott, who does the writing for Van's, has stated on numerous >occasions that it is the builder's responsibility to look at all >the sheets of the drawings for any items that may affect what he >is doing at the moment. And it's the designers responsibility to publish plans that are accurate. The part in question (W-422) was not presented in places where it should have been! Spreading details over several drawings is one thing (I can turn pages). Leaving details out is another matter (I cannot read minds). >I won't complain about the drawings themselves; OK, I will. I've found errors on several (I hesitate to say many, but almost did) drawings that could result in a lot of builder agony. Phone calls to Van's or other builders, or just some head scratching usually get it worked out, but if Van's or other builders know about it, why can't a revision be put out? >A cleanup would probably just introduce a lot of errors. Agreed. Revisions published in the RVator, however, should not. To be honest, I'm very happy with my RV-4 and the service I've gotten from Van's. I've seen plans, planes, and builder support that were far worse than what we get for much more money. I'd do it all over again. Just consider this sort of constructive (well, not really) whining. Dang, got caught up in myself and almost forgot it again. I left this out of the original post. Frank, the reason I re-checked the tiedown mount was because you discussed it in your instructions. I had earlier convinced myself that the -6 was just different from the -4, but last night figured I better find out where the mount goes just in case. There it was... So buy yourself a beer or something on me, because your instructions saved me from a lot of sweat. I'd like to take a look at anything else you come up with. thanks, DH ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Study those plans!
Date: Dec 16, 1993
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
> From frank(at)ssd.intel.com Thu Dec 16 08:07:59 1993 > > I have been gently pushing on Van's to do something with what I have > written (the wing instructions are now complete) but no luck so far. > > What do the rest of you think? Would you like to have a set of instructions > that saved you from having to spend any time deciding what order to do things > in? Frank has hit the rivet on the head here. I've read Frank's instructions and they are very good. Frank is an engineer and his past experience in manufacturing shows in his effort. (I've never really had the patience for it myself, but that's why I never write anything down when I try something new on my RV project--much to Frank's disappointment.) I believe the main fault with Van's Aircraft is they are afraid to give detailed direction for fear that they may make a mistake or receive criticism from builders that Van's isn't describing the best method. This is similar to Dick Van Grunsven's personality; I think he's a great guy and would rather do business with him over any others, but he is often reserved, modest, and non-committal about his opinions to a fault. When asked for his opinions, he frequently appears to not want to influence people or advocate any particular position. I rarely see him place himself in a situation where he would have to defend his position. People that know me from the Portland Area RV Builder's Group know that I have just the opposite personality; I'll gladly take a position on almost any issue and assume responsibility for defending it. (And not just on the subject of airplane building.) I even occasionally have to own up to mistakes :-) I think it's easy to provide detailed instructions and still give the builder the idea that the directions only describe one way of doing things. If you like Frank's philosophy, don't just post opinions here, send comments to Van's. Earl, N66VR (RV-6 in construction lull...but thinking about building a little) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rayssd!iatc.ed.ray.com!bataller(at)uunet.uu.net, mor374(at)its.csiro.au
Subject: Re[4]: Lights & Comments
John, a couple of clarifications on my response yesterday: - I recommend ordering from Van's if you are outside the US so you can leverage the shipping costs with other items. - I actually prefer orders from me rather than Van most of the time, as I have to give him an 'OEM discount'. - Even though I do slightly better on orders to me, I do give a discount if 2 lights are ordered, and I give an additional discount to our local builder's group, AND to our buddies on this mailing list. Gary, just for informational purposes, I would like to continue this discussion. Please, nobody take this as criticism of Gary or the Olds light kit, etc. I just want to add to the knowledge base from my feedback from customers, etc. (I think I seem to come-across as critical or negative on email sometimes, but I don't mean to, nor want to... Don W.) >As for the Bob Olds lights I just installed, I really have no complaints. >As others have pointed out, $200 for the set might be a bit on the high >side, but it wasn't that much out of line. Maybe a list of pros/cons >might help. When you look at the number of parts and pieces, and the amount of effort involved in making his kit, I think his price is fairly accurate. I tried hard to minimize those things, that is why my low price. I am certain he pays a lot more for his actual lights than I do too. Pros: 1. Each light assembly has individual high/low beam bulbs, which can be used seperately or together (taxi/landing), depending on how much light you want. ---> That is a nice feature, but most would recommend NOT running both at the same time, run either high or low, depending on situation. 2. The halogen bulbs are replaceable; nice to be able to carry spare bulbs, although probably not a real concern either way. ---> Right, mine are replaceable too, and the halogens seem to have a much better life than traditional 'aircraft' landing light bulbs. 3. The lens assembly is rather thick and is prebent; mine matched my wing contour exactly. They look very sturdy, so I was surprised to hear someone mention 'cracking'. ---> I have seen many that are cracked, all at one of the screws. I actually made a replacement lense for a local RV-6A Olds installation who had a crack before he even flew it. It just requires some care when tightening those screws on the Olds kit, due to the variability of the mounting area. 4. The lens has alot of area on the bottom of the leading edge, so alot of light will be thrown in the correct direction. Down and forward. ---> Yes, for those of you thinking of doing your own LL, be sure to NOT leave much opening on the top of the wing. Due to the nose high attitude on final, the opening should be more on the bottom of the wing. This also allows overshoot for taxi operations. Too much opening on top will allow overshoot that is distracting to the pilot. 5. The light assembly is easily removed for maintenance. It also leaves a big enough hole to slip my strobe power supply in and out. I have the supply mounted aft of the light assembly, attached to the wing spar web in the last wing bay. I can also reach into the wing tip to service the strobe light assembly. ---> This is a good idea, I wish I would have thought of it or heard of it sooner. I added an access panel just behind the spar and mounted my strobe supplies to the BACK of the spar web near the tip. I COULD have put it on the front and accessed it thru the LL hole as Gary describes. This means I can fiberglass the wing-tip closed, since there would be no need to take it off. I really like this arrangement. ---> Just a personal preference here, but I would think again about glassing-on the tips. Looking at RVs with screws, rivets, and glass holding the tips on, MOST of the glassed ones LOOKED glassed-on. In other words, the builders were unable to get a good blending of the glass into the skin. Nicely fitted riveted or screwed-on tips look just fine, the seam looks natural enough, where a poorly finished bonded seam stands-out. Gary, I'm not saying 'you shouldn't do it', just observing that MOST don't turn-out that great, and you may want to think about it. From Doug's observations, it sounds like you have good skills and may be able to do it nicely. 6. I thought the instructions were good; 2 pages of general info, 2 pages of detailed instructions, about 7 black/white photos and a color-glossy photo of a final assembly. The slight error I made was my fault. I'm satisfied with the installation. 7. Other then the cutting of the leading edge skin (and fixing my screwup), all the cutting, bending, riveting (of the assembly) and the nutplating (I'd put this in the 'cons' list) is already done. Cons: 1. The price is a bit high. You could probably buy all the material yourself for about $75. If you had some drawings, and could accurately bend the lenses material, you could save some $$. I don't know how to accurately bend this thick plastic. ---> My experience on 'doing-it-yourself' is that you spend alot more time than money saved. If a kit is available that comes close to your requirements, it is usually a good way to go. However, my kit lends itself well to 'modification'. It is easy to substitute a different light into the mount, for example (although, out-of appx. 300 kits sold, only 2 builders have tried that). I also offer and have sold plexi lenses only for those interested in doing something on their own. Happy to help where I can. I'm actually working with a local T-18 builder to adapt my kit to his plane, as they have nothing available at all. 2. As mentioned, some of the nutplates were not lined up. This is cosmetic and didn't bother me. But for the money, it probably should be done a bit more precisely. I wonder if anyone has given him this feedback. Seems like an easy thing to fix (I assume he has a jig of some sort). ---> You should send him your comments, many times people gripe to each other but the vendor hasn't a clue that there is a problem. 3. What did bother me was that 4 nutplates were unusable, and had to be drilled out and replaced. I took me about 10 minutes for the complete repair. The screw channels were overcrimped; I've never run across this before. Seems like he's getting some bad nutplates. 4. The final alignment is done during flight testing. It would be nice if some sort of alignment template could be included for each RV type so a future alignment would not be necessary. Also, a sliding-screw adjustment would be better than the riveting that is used to lockin the final alignment. Not a big deal, though. ---> That is one place I have a 'feature', my light is adjustable. For me, the best time to install the lights was when the leading edges were installed on the wings. I waited since I wanted to get the best placement of the power supplies. However, you could mount them as soon as the leading edge is complete. But accessibility was not at all an issue with an already mounted leading edge. My final comment is that I'd do it again on my next plane. I wasn't impressed by any of the wingtip mounted units; in particular their light projection pattern. But, I haven't seen Don's units. Sure would be nice if there were a central place we could post our experiences with RV equipment, for current and future RV'ers to read. ---> Mine is a leading-edge unit also. We had a bulletin board here locally for awhile, I think the guy who set-it up still monitors this list. I believe it faded away due to non-use. Matt's backup copies of this list is probably a decent source. For Don: The latest issue of Sport Aviation has a Tony B. article on landing lights. Was one of your units displayed? ---> Haven't opened-it yet, but I will check-it out tonight and see. Here is a tip since you are about to hang the engine. Don't fit the cowl until you have test run the engine. There is a good chance that the engine won't be 'settled' into the mounts until it is run, which should shake it enough to settle-it into place. You also may want to fit the cowl so that the spinner lines-up just ever so slightly high in relation, so that as the rubber mounts 'sag' with age, your alignment will stay closer. don w. Gary B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Lights & Comments
Date: Dec 16, 1993
> Gary, just for informational purposes, I would like to continue this > discussion. Please, nobody take this as criticism of Gary or the Olds > light kit, etc. I just want to add to the knowledge base from my > feedback from customers, etc. (I think I seem to come-across as > critical or negative on email sometimes, but I don't mean to, nor want > to... Don W.) Hey, I think this is one of the most useful discussions I've read in a while. Criticism is what keeps me from falling out of the sky! > > > Pros: > 1. Each light assembly has individual high/low beam bulbs, which can > be used seperately or together (taxi/landing), depending on how much > light you want. > ---> That is a nice feature, but most would recommend NOT running > both at the same time, run either high or low, depending on situation. Just curious; if they are all protected by individual breakers, what is the concern? To me, the more landing light on final, the better; and it saves me from turning the landing lights off and the taxi lights on. Is your concern overheating (ie. melting the lense), blinding the ground crowd, etc. The instructions suggest two approaches; wire them together or seperately. I guess my concern would be popping the main breaker and losing all lights. Comments? > > 3. The lens assembly is rather thick and is prebent; mine matched my wing > contour exactly. They look very sturdy, so I was surprised to hear > someone mention 'cracking'. > ---> I have seen many that are cracked, all at one of the screws. I > actually made a replacement lense for a local RV-6A Olds installation > who had a crack before he even flew it. It just requires some care > when tightening those screws on the Olds kit, due to the variability > of the mounting area. Bob indicated this was due to people overtightening the screws. The holes (in the lenses) are drilled oversize and there are countersunk washer that go in each hole. Can't see cracking as an issue. We'll see. > > 5. The light assembly is easily removed for maintenance. It also leaves > a big enough hole to slip my strobe power supply in and out. I have > the supply mounted aft of the light assembly, attached to the wing > spar web in the last wing bay. I can also reach into the wing tip to > service the strobe light assembly. > ---> This is a good idea, I wish I would have thought of it or heard > of it sooner. I added an access panel just behind the spar and > mounted my strobe supplies to the BACK of the spar web near the tip. > I COULD have put it on the front and accessed it thru the LL hole as > Gary describes. I take full credit for this one. It was suggested that I cut an access plate, but this seemed alot better. They only negative I see is that the lamps could heat the power supply if they were left on for a long time; but this is not the normal mode of operation (leaving the lamps on) and I think the wing-spar web would act as a pretty good heatsink. > > This means I can fiberglass the wing-tip closed, since there would be no > need to take it off. I really like this arrangement. > ---> Just a personal preference here, but I would think again about > glassing-on the tips. Looking at RVs with screws, rivets, and glass > holding the tips on, MOST of the glassed ones LOOKED glassed-on. In > other words, the builders were unable to get a good blending of the glass > into the skin. Nicely fitted riveted or screwed-on tips look just fine, > the seam looks natural enough, where a poorly finished bonded seam > stands-out. Gary, I'm not saying 'you shouldn't do it', just observing > that MOST don't turn-out that great, and you may want to think about it. > From Doug's observations, it sounds like you have good skills and may be > able to do it nicely. I really appreciated Doug's comments (my wife told me to stop smiling after he left), but what he didn't mention was that I've never done any fiberglassing work, but I have seen some good examples of RV's with sealed wingtips. I don't know if I can acquire this skill to do a good job. I plan on simulating the aluminum/wingtip interface and will do ALOT of practicing first. > > 2. As mentioned, some of the nutplates were not lined up. This is cosmetic > and didn't bother me. But for the money, it probably should be done > a bit more precisely. I wonder if anyone has given him this feedback. > Seems like an easy thing to fix (I assume he has a jig of some sort). > ---> You should send him your comments, many times people gripe to each > other but the vendor hasn't a clue that there is a problem. I figured someone would suggest that, so right after I read this I called Bob up. He was VERY happy I called, since nobody had passed this info on to him. He said he would adjust his jig. I also commented that his lense contour fit my leading edge EXACTLY. He said he had recently built a new bending fixture, since it sounded like there were some problems with the old one. Again, he said he appreciated the feedback, in particular that his new fixture was correct. > > 3. What did bother me was that 4 nutplates were unusable, and had to be > drilled out and replaced. I took me about 10 minutes for the complete > repair. The screw channels were overcrimped; I've never run across > this before. Seems like he's getting some bad nutplates. I mentioned this to Bob, and he was very surprised. He mentioned his source of nutplates (I forget the name), and said he'd look into it (even offered to send new nutplate; declined his offer). > Here is a tip since you are about to hang the engine. Don't fit the > cowl until you have test run the engine. There is a good chance that > the engine won't be 'settled' into the mounts until it is run, which > should shake it enough to settle-it into place. You also may want to > fit the cowl so that the spinner lines-up just ever so slightly high in > relation, so that as the rubber mounts 'sag' with age, your alignment > will stay closer. > don w. You got my attention on this one; first I've heard of this suggestion. I had really hoped to have every done and painted before I haul it off to the airport for reassembly. That would be the first opportunity to start the engine. Think there's a good way to make sure the engine is really seated? I like your suggestion of the 'sag' compensation. Well, off to go home to watch the video-tape that came in today's mail: "A Step by Step Guide to Molding Fiberglass"; Fibre Glast. You've all probably seen it in Sport Aviation recently. My concern is building the fiberglass piece to correctly position the strobe heads so that the lighting coverage requirement is met. There's a picture of an example of this in this months Sport Aviation. If anybody's interested, I'll post a review of the tape. And if I get good at making the parts, maybe I'll market them (watch out Don!). > > Gary B > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 1993
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rayssd!iatc.ed.ray.com!bataller(at)uunet.uu.net
Subject: Lights & Comments and Happy Holidays
>> Gary, just for informational purposes, I would like to continue this >> discussion. Please, nobody take this as criticism of Gary or the >> Olds light kit, etc. I just want to add to the knowledge base from >> my feedback from customers, etc. (I think I seem to come-across as >> critical or negative on email sometimes, but I don't mean to, nor >> want to... Don W.) >Hey, I think this is one of the most useful discussions I've read in a while. >Criticism is what keeps me from falling out of the sky! AAARRGH! Just back from a bout with the flu. Just to finish this discussion.... >> >> Pros: >> 1. Each light assembly has individual high/low beam bulbs, which can >> be used seperately or together (taxi/landing), depending on how much >> light you want. >> ---> That is a nice feature, but most would recommend NOT running >> both at the same time, run either high or low, depending on situation. >Just curious; if they are all protected by individual breakers, what is the >concern? To me, the more landing light on final, the better; and it saves >me from turning the landing lights off and the taxi lights on. Is your >concern overheating (ie. melting the lense), blinding the ground crowd, etc. >The instructions suggest two approaches; wire them together or seperately. >I guess my concern would be popping the main breaker and losing all lights. >Comments? I would wire them seperately, for redundancy and to allow taxi vs landing use. You may be generating excess heat with both on, mostly only a problem on the ground. In any case, LLs shouldn't be left-on when not running as lack of airflow can cause heat buildup. >> Here is a tip since you are about to hang the engine. Don't fit the >> cowl until you have test run the engine. There is a good chance that >> the engine won't be 'settled' into the mounts until it is run, which >> should shake it enough to settle-it into place. You also may want to >> fit the cowl so that the spinner lines-up just ever so slightly high in >> relation, so that as the rubber mounts 'sag' with age, your alignment >> will stay closer. >> don w. >You got my attention on this one; first I've heard of this suggestion. >I had really hoped to have every done and painted before I haul it off >to the airport for reassembly. That would be the first opportunity to >start the engine. Think there's a good way to make sure the engine >is really seated? I like your suggestion of the 'sag' compensation. Well, just climb-up on the engine and jump up and... JUST KIDDING! I was thinking that if you had a hoist or come-along you could lift the engine until the airframe is all-but hanging from it, then relax the lift, then repeat a few times. Just do something to make it shift as much as you can in the mounts, so it will hang 'naturally'. >Well, off to go home to watch the video-tape that came in today's mail: >"A Step by Step Guide to Molding Fiberglass"; Fibre Glast. You've >all probably seen it in Sport Aviation recently. My concern is building >the fiberglass piece to correctly position the strobe heads so that the >lighting coverage requirement is met. There's a picture of an example of >this in this months Sport Aviation. If anybody's interested, I'll post >a review of the tape. And if I get good at making the parts, maybe I'll >market them (watch out Don!). >> >> Gary B >> Good luck. If they're ready by February, and small enough, I'll take a set! I'll be spending next week in my garage doing you know what, so, Happy Holidays out there in RV land!!!!!!!!!! Back on the net next year... Don W. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 1993
From: Ray Belbin <ccrdb(at)jcu.edu.au>
Subject: Merry Xmas and Happy New Year!
Yep! Title says it all! I will be rivetting my main spars next week (hope neighbours don't mind too much). By the way, had the local military (owed me a favour) anneal my spar rivets for me. I'll let everybody know how it goes. Special note for John Morrissey... John, I'll be having flying holiday, prawns and beer too......... on tropical Brampton Island! Taking a PA32 (noselocker full of eskies)! Ray Belbin RV6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 25, 1993
From: lackerma(at)rad.rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman)
Subject: removing dents
While back riviting my rudder, I creased a 2 inch area because I was at the edge of the metal plate on which the rudder lay. Is there any way to remove that dent or should I remake the rudder? This is not a question from a complete compulsive, but is a large dent. help. laurens ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 1993
From: rbibb(at)cisco.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: removing dents
>While back riviting my rudder, I creased a 2 inch area because >I was at the edge of the metal plate on which the >rudder lay. Is there any way to remove that dent or >should I remake the rudder? This is not a question >from a complete compulsive, but is a large >dent. > Oops! You might try this: Lay the dent over the metal plate and gently hammer (by hand) the dent out. This will slightly thin the metal in the effected area (stretch it) but you might be able to achieve an acceptable job. If you're like most of us you'll soon be calling Van's for a rush shipment of a new part. Good luck. Richard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard E. Bibb Phone: 703-715-4031 Cisco Systems, Incorporated FAX: 703-715-4004 1875 Campus Commons Drive, #305 Reston, Virginia 22091 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 1994
From: "Mark Richardson" <richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca>
Subject: Fires Down Under
Hi Folks, I was just wondering if any of you RV'ers were effected by the those horrendous fires in the land of Aus. Mark RV-6 20819 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 1994
From: mor374(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey)
Subject: Re: Fires Down Under
Hi RV'ers >Subject: Fires Down Under >Hi Folks, >I was just wondering if any of you RV'ers were effected by the those >horrendous fires in the land of Aus. >Mark >RV-6 20819 Well I live over 250Kms from Sydney in Canberra (National Capitol) and when the winds blowing the right direction (NE)- as it was for three days last week- we had visibility down to 1K. The Smoke was so thick that you could taste it. The airport here was closed to VFR Traffic. Jets flying into Sydney were entering the Smoke cloud and going onto instruments at over 30,000ft. I am still waiting to hear about what happened to some of my mates in the Sydney area, The SAAA (Australia's version of the EAA) has an airfield called Wedderburn that was right in the middle of the fires south of Sydney. The airfield houses around 40 homebuilts but the fire's appear's to have missed them. At this time there are still over 100 fires burning around Sydney but they are under control (which is another way of saying that they are burning in un-inhabited bush). Sunsets look good though!! See ya latter. John Morrissey RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: FAA ever weirder,but to our advantage..
Date: Jan 14, 1994
Howdy all, A friend of mine, Mas Yoshida RV-6 has just come back from the FAA FSDO office here in Denver. Paperwork done, inspection next. The weirdness comes from his test time, and area. First the area, though small for this area (prevoius test areas have been 4 times the size) is 85nm x 50nm. The test time is ten (10) Hours!!! Mas says that the FAA dude really went over his engine logs, saw it was a stock O-360, with all AD's complied with, and it was just back from an engine shop where it was checked for wear, and was run on a test stand. Mas is also running a Van's Constant Speed prop. I just thought I would throw this out. Has anyone else heard of the FAA changing the test times from what is published? It maybe that the RV's are known to be stabile, and the well documented engine/prop combo helped. Go figure... Doug Bloomberg RV-6 Going slower than I want... :^) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: NTSB reports
Date: Jan 14, 1994
From: brent(at)SSD.intel.com
I hear the NTSB had a list of RV incident reports at Oshkosh. Does anybody know where I can get a copy? Brent - RV6A wannabe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 1994
From: Bill Baines <bill(at)nickel.ucs.sfu.ca>
Subject: Announcing the beginning of another RV-4
The plans arrived last tuesday. There was a new compressor under the Xmas Tree. I've read all 267 pages of the rv-list.archive that I rec'd some months ago. The Empanage ships next monday or tues. I am off on 6 weeks vacation -- but reading my mail. No travel plans in mind except a day trip to Boeing Surplus. Guess what I'll be doing :-) Must seem pretty lame to those of you who are months/years ahead of me, but one has to take the first step. Like I said in a previous post, this is a re-incarnation of a dream I had 20 years ago ( I even had a set of RV-3 plans sn 247 if I recall) -- hope I haven't bitten off more than I can chew. There are several RV builders in BC, and those who I have contacted have been friendy and very forthcoming. BTW, What ever happend to the Venture that was posting to this list up until mid 1992? --- Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML I'll ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 1994
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: Re: Announcing the beginning of another RV-4
> > BTW, What ever happend to the Venture that was posting > to this list up until mid 1992? > > --- > Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, > Bret was having someone ferry his Venture from OR to CA somewhere. Along the way they ran out of gas ar something went wrong, crash landed and distroyed the plane! No one was hurt. Later that year, someone else was flying his Jet Ranger and crashed. He also had a Mooney I think, and that had problems as well, although I don't remember the details. Guy just had bad luck that year. He ask to be taken off the list cause it was just too much for him... Matt Dralle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Announcing the beginning of another RV-4
Definitely NOT lame, Bill. We've all been there. Just take it one small piece at a time, and before you know it, the pieces will get bigger. GOOD LUCK! dw The plans arrived last tuesday. There was a new compressor under the Xmas Tree. I've read all 267 pages of the rv-list.archive that I rec'd some months ago. The Empanage ships next monday or tues. I am off on 6 weeks vacation -- but reading my mail. No travel plans in mind except a day trip to Boeing Surplus. Guess what I'll be doing :-) Must seem pretty lame to those of you who are months/years ahead of me, but one has to take the first step. Like I said in a previous post, this is a re-incarnation of a dream I had 20 years ago ( I even had a set of RV-3 plans sn 247 if I recall) -- hope I haven't bitten off more than I can chew. There are several RV builders in BC, and those who I have contacted have been friendy and very forthcoming. BTW, What ever happend to the Venture that was posting to this list up until mid 1992? --- Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML I'll ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
bill(at)nickel.ucs.sfu.ca, rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re[2]: Announcing the beginning of another RV-4
Wow, what a year.... He had spent over 2 years and probably close to $200K on that thing and only got to 'ride' in it once. The crash occured during the delivery flight, somewhere in the Utah mountains. Several of us work within a mile of the shop that helped him build it (they also do custom RV work). We had a chance to hear the story first-hand: basically, it lost oil pressure and siezed-up at about 12K feet (2K AGL!). The pilot contends that the engine itself failed (it was a brand-new continental), while investigators (continental participated) claimed it was a failed fitting at the oil-pressure sender. Pilot claims that lack of oil all over the plane supports his contention, but the 'official' cause was called 'vibration induced failure of the pressure sender', allowing oil to leave engine and eventual engine failure. Whatever, you can draw your own conclusions (and I don't have time to type-out all of the other 'evidence/discussion' the pilot had to support his side of the story). The good news is that the Venture cockpit was intact and saved the pilot from serious injury during a forced landing at high altitude with an estimated touchdown speed in excess of 100mph on soft terrain (Venture wing + high altitude = high stall/touchdown speed). The balance of the airframe was ripped to pieces, but we saw what was left of the fuselage/cockpit and to it's credit, was extremely still 'egg' shaped. I don't blame him for fading-away from this list. don wentz > > BTW, What ever happend to the Venture that was posting > to this list up until mid 1992? > > --- > Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, > Bret was having someone ferry his Venture from OR to CA somewhere. Along the way they ran out of gas ar something went wrong, crash landed and distroyed the plane! No one was hurt. Later that year, someone else was flying his Jet Ranger and crashed. He also had a Mooney I think, and that had problems -as well, although I don't remember the details. Guy just had bad luck that -year. He ask to be taken off the list cause it was just too much for him... Matt Dralle ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Questair Accident
Date: Jan 17, 1994
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
bill(at)nickel.ucs.sfu.ca, rv-list(at)matronics.com > Bret was having someone ferry his Venture from OR to CA somewhere. Along the > way they ran out of gas ar something went wrong, crash landed and distroyed > the plane! There was an account of this accident in "EAA Experimenter" a couple of months ago or so. It was signed "DL." It's interesting reading! Earl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: It runs
Project update: IT RUNS!!!!!!!! Saturday Jan 15, 1994 at about 1PM we started and test ran the engine in my RV-6 for the first time. 2 runs of about 5 minutes each. All instruments, guages, and switches seemed to function correctly. Only problems were 2 minor oil leaks (one case bolt, one sender), and required leaning of the mixture at idle. After 3.5 years on the project, that was a MAJOR milestone. Hope to be flying by May 94. dw RV-6 20369, 180hp, N790DW ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 1994
From: "Mark Richardson" <richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: It runs
Don Wentz writes: >Project update: IT RUNS!!!!!!!! > ....... > >After 3.5 years on the project, that was a MAJOR milestone. Hope to be flying >by May 94. > >dw >RV-6 20369, 180hp, N790DW CONGRATULATIONS !!!! I'm only about 2 millenia from that point ; ) Mark RV-6 20819 (a collection of parts in loose formation in my garage) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 1994
From: mor374(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey)
Subject: Re[2]: It runs
>Subject: RE: It runs > Don Wentz writes: >>Project update: IT RUNS!!!!!!!! >> ....... >> >>After 3.5 years on the project, that was a MAJOR milestone. Hope to be flying >>by May 94. >> >>dw >>RV-6 20369, 180hp, N790DW >CONGRATULATIONS !!!! I'm only about 2 millenia from that point ; ) Ditto Don, Well done!! The SAAA are talking about sending another Oshkosh Express out in 1995, I am giving serious consideration to going, if so I hope to see the beast in 95!!. John Morrissey PS Mark, all you gotta do is tighten up that formation :-) >RV-6 20819 (a collection of parts in loose formation in my garage) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rv-list(at)matronics.com, richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca
Subject: Re[3]: It runs
>Subject: RE: It runs Thanks for all the supportive responses gang. John, I like that advice to Mark. :-) dw By the way John, we had a visitor from Down Under at our builder's group mtg last week. He had been visiting Van's factory and came to the mtg with Ken. Unfortunately I can't recall his name, but he will definitely be taking some excitement back with him. dw > Don Wentz writes: >>Project update: IT RUNS!!!!!!!! >> ....... >> >>After 3.5 years on the project, that was a MAJOR milestone. Hope to -be flying >>by May 94. >> >>dw >>RV-6 20369, 180hp, N790DW >CONGRATULATIONS !!!! I'm only about 2 millenia from that point ; ) Ditto Don, Well done!! The SAAA are talking about sending another Oshkosh Express out in 1995, I am giving serious consideration to going, if so I hope to see the beast in 95!!. John Morrissey PS Mark, all you gotta do is tighten up that formation :-) >RV-6 20819 (a collection of parts in loose formation in my garage) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 1994
From: rfrawley(at)cisco.com (Richard Frawley)
Subject: Subsribe
Please add me to the list Richard Frawley cisco Systems Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Richard Frawley | | | Sales Type Stuff | || || * * * | | Phone: 61-2-957-4944 | || || - * | | | * - | | Mobile: 61-18-260-594 | |||| |||| |o|*| | | | |*|o| | | Fax: 61-2-957-4077 | ..:||||||:..:||||||:..| |===========| | | | Email:rfrawley(at)cisco.com | cisco Systems Australia | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1994
From: dralle (Matthew G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
Subject: Welcome New Aussy to RV_LIST...
Welcome Richard Frawley to the rv-list. Here is a bit of information about hime and his project. Richard, please send postings to "rv-list(at)matronics.com". -----Forwarded----- At this point I am in the planning stage and looking to arrange a fly in one to see how well I like them. I you know of a contact in either Sydney or Melbourne (Australia) I would be grateful. I am a private pilot, live in the Southern suburbs of Sydney Australia, work as a sales rep for Cisco Systems (the router people, most of the internet is built with our kit), am 35 married with 2 kids (1M, 1F) have been fling since I was 17 years old, in fact I had my solo before my driving licence. I have about 300 hrs as I didnt fly for a few years but have clocked 50 or so in the last 12 months. Currently flying Bonazas and Turbo Arrows. -----End of Forward----- Matt Dralle RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1994
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Subject: -4 spars
Finished riveting my wing spars last night. I wasted a lot of worry on those - hammering with a dimpling arbor worked well. One question: The plans show a stiffener on the fwd side of the spar at sta. 56 1/4 just outboard of the web doubler. No height is given, but it fits between the flange strips. If I use the same edge spacing as on the rear stiffeners five rivets as specified won't fit. What height is this stiffener supposed to be? It doesn't look like the -6 has the same stiffener, so -4 builders, help me out. Dave Hyde davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)IATC.ED.RAY.COM (Gary Bataller)
Subject: 0320E2A is on my nose
Date: Feb 01, 1994
Just thought you'd all be interested. On Friday night, I bolted on my RV6A engine mount with the nose and main gear attached. Of course it was way too tail heavy and needed to be supported at the tail. Gee, how can I make it balance? So Saturday morning my 11 yr old son and I hoisted up the O320E2A onto the Dynafocol-I mount. It fit great (well, it was a challenge to get that last engine bolt in) and then I put the Woofter extension and the Warnke prop on. With the engine on the plane balances nicely, and needs no tail support; and can be moved around! The last two nights I've begun fitting the top and bottom engine cowling. It looks great, and is a real motivator! By the way, I primed the engine mount with Variprime and used a Dupont finish coat (Centarian?) which was light blue. So, things are really coming along. Thanks to the folks that have been helping me these past months (Doug B., Scott C., Steve B, Ron D.). So now I start the engine installation (hey Doug, a chance of getting that video tape?). Still planning on flying late Summer. Finally, I got Van's 1994 Calendar. It has a nice variety of RV's; nicely done. It even has a real nice aerial shot of the RV6 on floats. Also a retractible-gear RV6A in flight (hint; its the April version). Happy building... Gary Bataller ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
rayssd!IATC.ED.RAY.COM!bataller(at)uunet.uu.net, rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: 0320E2A is on my nose
Major congratulations Gary, a definite motivator alright. It really gives the fuse an all new look to have an engine on. Dupont Centari I think is an acrylic enamel, which I used also, in light grey. Congrats again, keep up the good work! dw Just thought you'd all be interested. On Friday night, I bolted on my RV6A engine mount with the nose and main gear attached. Of course it was way too tail heavy and needed to be supported at the tail. Gee, how can I make it balance? So Saturday morning my 11 yr old son and I hoisted up the O320E2A onto the Dynafocol-I mount. It fit great (well, it was a challenge to get that last engine bolt in) and then I put the Woofter extension and the Warnke prop on. With the engine on the plane balances nicely, and needs no tail support; and can be moved around! The last two nights I've begun fitting the top and bottom engine cowling. It looks great, and is a real motivator! By the way, I primed the engine mount with Variprime and used a Dupont finish coat (Centarian?) which was light blue. So, things are really coming along. Thanks to the folks that have been helping me these past months (Doug B., Scott C., Steve B, Ron D.). So now I start the engine installation (hey Doug, a chance of getting that video tape?). Still planning on flying late Summer. Finally, I got Van's 1994 Calendar. It has a nice variety of RV's; nicely done. It even has a real nice aerial shot of the RV6 on floats. Also a retractible-gear RV6A in flight (hint; its the April version). Happy building... Gary Bataller ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: 0320E2A is on my nose
> So Saturday morning my 11 yr old son and I >hoisted up the O320E2A onto the Dynafocol-I mount. It fit great (well, >it was a challenge to get that last engine bolt in) and then I put the >Woofter extension and the Warnke prop on. With the engine on the plane >balances nicely, and needs no tail support; and can be moved around! >The last two nights I've begun fitting the top and bottom engine cowling. Yeah yeah, you guys hanging engines just love to rub it in for the rest of us weenies, who are still working on the empennage, wings, etc.! ;-) But seriously, congrats! That has to be a big moment. Some day (sigh). I've got one wing spar done and the other one all but done - it's sitting on the sawhorses, all clamped together with all the rivets taped into their holes. I promised I'd wait to rivet it till the next Portland area RVators' meeting, so we can do some rivets as a demo. I'm doing it with the Avery tool and a 4.5 lb hammer. The first spar went really smoothly, thanks in large part to Frank Justice's EXTREMELY helpful supplemental instructions. I strongly recommend anyone who is working on their empennage or (especially) their wings to get ahold of those (the latest version, since it's continually being improved). In the meantime I'm doing the aft wing spars (very simple compared to the forward spars) and am ready to finish deburring, then prime and rivet. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1994
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Subject: -4 spars:the answer
Spoke with Bill Benedict at Van's last night. The fwd spreader at sta. 56 1/4 is 4 11/16 long. It does butt up against both top and bottom flange strips. No, it's not shown with dimensions anywhere on the plans, and view A-A on dwg 12 looks outboard, not inboard, so it doesn't show this spreader. Once you know that the spreader hits the flanges, though, A-A does show the proper dimension. What bugged me with this is that the rear spreaders are installed with gaps between them and the spar flange, so I wasn't sure why this one wouldn't have it. Still don't know why they're different, but it doesn't really matter. Re: Instructions: Much applause, etc. to Frank Justice. I'm using his instructions' almost exclusively for my wings, and they're a HUGE help. Re: RVator, low flying My hair is sort of standing on end after reading the low flying comments in the most recent RVator. Anyone else surprised by this (the letter-writer, not Van)? Happily straightening ribs, no questions on that yet. Dave Hyde ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Frank's Instructions
Date: Feb 02, 1994
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
> From davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil Wed Feb 2 04:28:39 1994 > > Re: Instructions: > > Much applause, etc. to Frank Justice. I'm using his instructions' > almost exclusively for my wings, and they're a HUGE help. > Once again, I'd like to encourage any users of Frank's instructions to write to Van, Bill Benedict, and Ken Scott. Tell them what you think. Without this kind of feedback, I doubt Van's will ever change its philosophy about what is appropriate content, direction, and extent in the construction manual. Remember, Van's isn't on the Internet! Earl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca>
Subject: New Address
Date: Feb 03, 1994
Matt, Could you please change my address from richards(at)hawk.nstn.ns.ca to richards(at)sofkin.ca. I have moved from foggy Halifax, Nova Scotia to coolllldddd Ottawa, Ontario. Disadvantages : Higher cost of living :- ( Faster pace of life : -( 1000 miles from the ocean :-( Advantages : More money :-) 1000 miles closer to Oshkosh :-) 1000 miles closer to Vans :-) :-) :-) Mark RV-6 20819 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 1994
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Subject: Wing Skin Back Riveting
Just finished my second wing; used back-riveting on the top skin. Many thanks to those of you who recommended it. Only had to drill out two, the rest were perfect, no dings at all, took about half as long. Made my own set with a counterbore in the tip of an old offset set from Boeing surplus, but I suspect you could do about as well with a flat-faced set if you hold the tip in place with your other hand. Had to grind some dents into the set to clear the rib stiffeners. Used a medium-weight bucking bar that had a 1 1/2-inch by 1 1/2-inch square surface rather than the big plate some people had talked about. If my wife can handle it anybody can; just don't push on the gun. FKJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: index of RVator articles
Hey rivet-heads! I am just finishing making up an index of articles in the RVator. It includes articles from issues dating back to Sept. 1990 (can you guess when I started my project?), listed by subject (aileron, wing, etc). I created this index because I often find myself thinking "didn't I read something about this procedure/part/component in the RVator?", but can't find the article, or worse yet I screw something up and then remember later that there was something about it in the RVator. This way when I start work on a new phase or assembly, it is much easier to find and reread the appropriate articles first. I don't know if this has been done already, but depending on how much interest there is, I can either post it to the list or e-mail individual copies out. It's just basic ASCII text format. I'm not completely done but I think it's going to be about 2500 lines. Yeah, I know its big, but hey, there's a lot of material there. Randall RV-6 empennage done wing spars done prepping ribs, ribs, and more ribs..... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca>
Subject: RE: index of RVator articles
Date: Feb 16, 1994
---------- From: randall Subject: index of RVator articles Date: Wednesday, February 16, 1994 12:05PM > Hey rivet-heads! Stuff deleted..... >I don't know if this has been done already, but depending on how much >interest there is, I can either post it to the list or e-mail individual >copies out. It's just basic ASCII text format. I'm not completely done but >I think it's going to be about 2500 lines. Yeah, I know its big, but hey, >there's a lot of material there. I think it is a great idea! Maybe we can keep it along with the RV images on roxanne. What do you think Matt ? Mark RV-6 20819 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1994
From: price_c(at)kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Subject: subscribe
subscribe Hello RV homebuilders, I am about to start a RV6A project. I've got the RV6 plans, but will have to ask Vans if it is possible to get extra sheets for the 3 wheeler and the alternative canopy. I want to do it from the raw materials. So my question is to do with quantity schedule calculation. Has anyone got a materials list for an RV6A or RV6 or perhaps (assuming typical aluminium monocXXXX construction) a general guideline for 2 seater, low wing aircraft? Chris Price branzcgp(at)branz.org.nz or price_c(at)kosmos.wcc.govt.nz Wellington, New Zealand ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: index of RVator articles
---------- Based on the number of responses about the RVator index I guess it's justified to mail it to the whole list, so here it is! It includes issues dating back to Sept. 1990. Not all articles are cross-referenced but most are - I mostly concentrated on the technical and flying side of it and whatever else seemed interesting. This is the first pass so I'm sure it has mistakes, omissions, typos. Feel free to e-mail suggestions/corrections, etc. to me (randall(at)edt.com). NOTES Names: Some are in there, mostly when I felt the name might be associated in people's minds with a particular subject. And I'm sure you'll find the names of people I know more than people I don't. So sue me. Fly-ins: Some got in there, some got left out, I wasn't too careful here. Dated Material: Calendars and such I mostly left out. I tried to include stuff like engine pricing since the pricing methods and timing are relevant even though the prices may be obsolete, although the older it was, the less likeley it is to be included. First flights: would be nice, but too many to bother with. Classifieds: nope Plans Revisions: not a chance. Page Numbers: They didn't start numbering the pages till around Feb. 1992, in issues prior to that I just counted using the cover page as 1. I made the index by creating a list of articles, where each line included the page number, date, title, and a list of one or more cross-reference headings to list it under. I then ran a bourne shell script on it to create the index. If anyone has back issues of the RVator prior to Sept. 1990 and wants to add em to the index, please let me know and I'll be happy to give you the exact format and add em to my index. Randall RV-6 empennage done wing spars done prepping ribs, ribs, and more ribs..... ---------- Index of RVator Articles accidents Dec 93, 7, Safety Oct 93, 16, Idaho RV-6 Accident Oct 93, 17, Accident Update Aug 93, 10, Aftermath Aug 93, 12, Accidents Aug 93, 13, Operating Caution Apr 93, 5, Low Altitude/Low Visibility Traffic Pattern Hazards Apr 93, 7, Aerobatic Competition Ban on RV-3 Feb 93, 7, Engine Control Installations Dec 92, 10, 1992 RV Accidents Oct 92, 11, Accidents Aug 92, 10, Aft C.G. Comments Jun 92, 7, Safety Followup Apr 92, 6, Safety Dec 91, 10, Safety Dec 91, 12, Other things to look out for Sep 91, 13, Safety: Keep the Engine Running!!! Mar 91, 14, Safety Sep 90, 9, Safety: High Density Traffic Sep 90, 14, RV Accidents advisory circulars Dec 92, 15, If You Haven't Discovered Advisory Circular 43.13 AD notes Oct 92, 16, Builders Tips Aug 92, 12, Shop Notes aerobatics Apr 93, 7, Aerobatic Competition Ban on RV-3 Sep 91, 6, Preparing an RV-4 for Aerobatic Competition Mar 91, 5, The RV-4 in Competitive Aerobatics Aeroquip Apr 93, 9, Aeroquip Service Bulletin AA135 Feb 93, 12, Engine Installation: Making and Testing Hoses aileron alignment with flap Sep 90, 12, Wing Tips bellcrank Dec 93, 12, Accidental Use of .063 Angle for Aileron Bellcrank Mount Apr 93, 13, We Goofed Feb 93, 7, Kit Improvements and Explanations fitting Oct 93, 11, Fitting Ailerons and Flaps gusset Feb 93, 7, Kit Improvements and Explanations hinge bearing Jun 91, 5, Aileron Hinge Bearings skin stiffeners Dec 91, 14, Control Surface Skin Stiffeners trailing edge Oct 92, 13, Builders Tips Aug 92, 5, Altering the Aileron Trailing Edge - one way to trim your airplane trim Feb 93, 13, Check those Flange Angles Aug 92, 11, Mechanical Aileron Trim System aircraft carrier Dec 93, 16, Carrier Based RV-6? airframe assembly Aug 83, 9, Thinking Back airspeed Oct 93, 5, How does it go fast? Aug 93, 5, How does it go fast? Aug 93, 6, How Fast Does it Go? Jun 93, 7, Sun 100 Race Feb 93, 9, Not Getting Full Performance from your RV? Let's Talk Dec 92, 11, One Piece Landing Gear Leg Fairings Dec 92, 11, Wheel Fairings Sep 91, 11, Air Speed & Static System Sep 90, 10, Performance Improvement Air Beetle Aug 93, 13, NOTARVs air box see carbeurator see engine air scoop see cowl air vent Oct 93, 14, Increasing the Effectiveness of Air Vents: Vortex Generators alodyne Jun 92, 8, Corrosion - A brief Primer alternate air see engine alternator see engine aluminum angle Jun 93, 14, Material Problems angle Jun 93, 14, Material Problems annealing Apr 93, 9, Soft Rivets: Boon or Boondoggle? anodizing Dec 91, 5, Tired Wings? Anodized Spars and Fatigue Strength antenna Oct 93, 7, Antennas AN hardware Dec 92, 16, AN-218, VA-126 AN hardware torque values Dec 92, 15, If You Haven't Discovered Advisory Circular 43.13 Arlington Sep 90, 5, Fly-In Reviews auto fuel Sep 90, 6, Auto Fuel use in RVs Avery Feb 93, 10, New Addresses aviation consumer Apr 93, 8, Comments on Recent Aviation Consumer Magazine Articles awards Sep 90, 14, Award Winning RVs baffle see engine Bakersfield Jun 92, 10, Gatherings Jun 91, 8, Merced/Bakersfield battery Oct 93, 15, Lightweight Battery bearings Apr 93, 13, Washer Clarification bellcrank see wing see aileron Berthe, Chuck Oct 92, 5, Flying at Aft CG billing Dec 92, 16, Ordering from Van's bolt see close tolerance bolt see propeller bolt torque values see AN hardware torque values Boulay, Henry Oct 93, 11, Engines - Henry Boulay's Alternative Bowhay, Eustace Dec 93, 4, First Flights - RV-6F Oct 93, 19, First Flights - RV-6F Feb 93, 12, Engine Installation: Making and Testing Hoses Brabandt, Earl Dec 92, 5, IFR in RVs Oct 92, 10, IFR in RVs brakes Jun 93, 10, Brake Master Cylinders-Mount Upright builder's groups Aug 92, 13, Builder's Groups Apr 92, 5, On the Road Again bulkhead see fuselage bulletin board Mar 91, 13, Another Vehicle for Technical Questions buzzing see low flying C.G. Dec 92, 10, 1992 RV Accidents Oct 92, 5, Flying at Aft CG Jun 92, 5, Safety Apr 92, 6, Safety CAFE Apr 92, 13, Homebuilt Aircraft Performance Testing Sep 90, 17, CAFE Prop Update calendars Dec 93, 14, Calendars canopy Feb 93, 8, F-644 Channel- Supplied as One-Piece, Cut in Two Pieces for Use canopy cover Feb 93, 13, Everett Keeler... distortion Sep 90, 13, Removing RV-6 Canopy Distortion fairing Dec 92, 13, Building a Fairing around the RV-6 Optional Windshield latch Jun 93, 6, Oil on the Canopy! polishing Sep 90, 13, Removing RV-6 Canopy Distortion sliding Dec 93, 8, RV-4 Sliding Canopy Dec 93, 10, Seal for Sliding Canopy Track Dec 92, 13, Building a Fairing around the RV-6 Optional Windshield Aug 92, 12, Shop Notes Mar 91, 10, RV-6 Sliding Canopy sliding vs tilt-up Jun 91, 10, Canopy Updates strut Mar 91, 11, Air/Spring Struts for RV-6 Canopies UV protection Aug 92, 13, UV Protection under RV Canopies carbeurator air box Jun 93, 9, O-360 Air Box used on IO/320 Air box Dec 92, 12, More on Filtered Air Boxes Apr 92, 14, 0-360 Airbox & Air Scoop for RV-4 Dec 91, 13, Shop Talk Sep 91, 8, Induction: Carb Heat & Alternate Air Box Sep 91, 13, New Products Jun 91, 11, Carb Heat and Alternate Airboxes CF030-766 float Oct 92, 16, Builders Tips heat Sep 91, 8, Induction: Carb Heat & Alternate Air Box Jun 91, 11, Carb Heat and Alternate Airboxes induction system Sep 91, 8, Induction: Carb Heat & Alternate Air Box MA3 & MA4 Oct 92, 16, Builders Tips catalogs Apr 93, 11, New Products certification Aug 92, 5, Oshkosh '92 - 101 Reasons for Attending Mar 92, 10, SAMA-Simplified Certification Sep 91, 12, PCA NPRM re-issued Jun 91, 8, SAMA - Primary Aircraft Category Progress Report Sep 90, 6, SAMA: Primary Category Certification CFI Aug 93, 10, Aftermath choke cable Aug 92, 11, Wire Grip Ends for Choke Cables CHT see engine classes Dec 93, 16, Classes at Van's Jun 93, 12, Classes at Van's Dec 92, 17, RV College(s) Apr 92, 13, Builder's Clinics Mar 92, 11, RV College classifieds Aug 92, 12, Shop Notes close tolerance bolt Jun 93, 10, "Tight" Bolts in Spar Splice Plates cockpit lights Feb 93, 10, Cockpit Light Dimmer Circuit college see classes comm radio see radio competition Jun 93, 7, Sun 100 Race Apr 93, 7, Aerobatic Competition Ban on RV-3 Sep 91, 6, Preparing an RV-4 for Aerobatic Competition Mar 91, 5, The RV-4 in Competitive Aerobatics computer bulletin board see bulletin board conduit Jun 92, 13, Wing Wiring Conduit conferences Jun 93, 12, Builders Conferences constant speed see propeller contests Jun 93, 12, Another Stupendous Contest controls see flight controls control column see flight controls control surface leading edge Jun 92, 14, Empennage Leading Edge Fixture skin stiffeners Dec 91, 14, Control Surface Skin Stiffeners trailing edge Oct 92, 13, Builders Tips Aug 92, 5, Altering the Aileron Trailing Edge - one way to trim your airplane Dec 91, 13, Noteworthy Magazine Articles control tube Dec 93, 12, A Cautionary Tale Apr 93, 13, Washer Clarification cooling Sep 90, 16, Cooling Blast Tubes cooling drag Dec 93, 5, How Does It Go Fast Copperstate Oct 92, 17, Calendar and Recent Events corrosion Jun 92, 8, Corrosion - A brief Primer Dec 91, 5, Tired Wings? Anodized Spars and Fatigue Strength countersinking Aug 92, 12, Dimple vs Machine Countersink cowl Dec 93, 5, How Does It Go Fast Jun 93, 11, The Dummy bolts on a Prop Extension Aug 92, 7, Traps in Cowl Land cowl air scoop Apr 92, 14, 0-360 Airbox & Air Scoop for RV-4 installation Dec 91, 6, Cowl Installation cruise speed see airspeed Custom Aircraft Components Feb 93, 10, New Addresses Aug 92, 11, New Products custom built Mar 91, 11, 'Superkit' Offered cutting wheel see tools cylinder head temp. see engine damage, kit Aug 92, 12, Shop Notes deposits Dec 92, 16, Ordering from Van's dimple die Aug 93, 9, Useful Stuff Jun 93, 9, Building Techniques and Hints dimpling Aug 92, 12, Dimple vs Machine Countersink drag Dec 93, 5, How Does It Go Fast Aug 93, 5, How does it go fast? Feb 93, 9, Not Getting Full Performance from your RV? Let's Talk Dec 92, 11, One Piece Landing Gear Leg Fairings Dec 92, 11, Wheel Fairings Mar 91, 12, Pea Soup drain hole Dec 93, 11, Drain Holes in RVs Jun 91, 6, Drain Holes dynamic stability see stability efficiency Oct 93, 5, How does it go fast? Aug 93, 5, How does it go fast? Aug 93, 6, How Fast Does it Go? Jun 93, 7, Sun 100 Race Feb 93, 9, Not Getting Full Performance from your RV? Let's Talk Dec 92, 11, One Piece Landing Gear Leg Fairings Dec 92, 11, Wheel Fairings Sep 90, 10, Performance Improvement Eickstedt, Ray Jun 92, 9, The Pronghorn RV-4 elevator counterbalance caps Dec 92, 11, RV-6 Elevator Counterbalance Caps skin stiffeners Dec 91, 14, Control Surface Skin Stiffeners trailing edge Oct 92, 13, Builders Tips trim Feb 93, 13, Check those Flange Angles empennage assembly Aug 83, 9, Thinking Back construction Mar 92, 10, Empennage Spar Alignment construction video Oct 92, 16, New Products hinge brackets Oct 92, 16, Builders Tips jig Feb 93, 5, Jigs - Let's Be Reasonable leading edge Jun 92, 14, Empennage Leading Edge Fixture plans Dec 91, 9, New Empennage Plans and Manual spar Mar 92, 10, Empennage Spar Alignment engine 0320-H2AD Dec 92, 14, Using the O-320-H2AD air box Jun 93, 9, O-360 Air Box used on IO/320 Air box Dec 92, 12, More on Filtered Air Boxes Apr 92, 14, 0-360 Airbox & Air Scoop for RV-4 Dec 91, 13, Shop Talk Sep 91, 8, Induction: Carb Heat & Alternate Air Box Sep 91, 13, New Products Jun 91, 11, Carb Heat and Alternate Airboxes alternate air Jun 92, 7, Safety Followup Sep 91, 8, Induction: Carb Heat & Alternate Air Box Jun 91, 11, Carb Heat and Alternate Airboxes alternator Sep 90, 15, Alternator Pulleys baffle Dec 93, 5, How Does It Go Fast baffle kit Oct 92, 15, Builders Tips CHT Aug 92, 11, Builder's Tips controls Oct 93, 14, Left Side Throttle Quadrant Feb 93, 7, Engine Control Installations crankshaft Jun 93, 14, Crankshaft Plug Problems exhaust system Dec 93, 5, How Does It Go Fast Aug 92, 11, New Products Apr 92, 11, Exhaust Systems Sep 91, 13, New Products experimental Oct 93, 11, Engines - Henry Boulay's Alternative failure Dec 91, 10, Safety Dec 91, 12, Other things to look out for Sep 91, 13, Safety: Keep the Engine Running!!! fuel injection Jun 93, 9, O-360 Air Box used on IO/320 Air box hoses Feb 93, 12, Engine Installation: Making and Testing Hoses Sep 90, 14, Possible Problems IO/320 Jun 93, 9, O-360 Air Box used on IO/320 Air box IO/360 Oct 92, 12, Harmon Rocket II leaning Dec 93, 7, Lycoming Engine "Care & Feeding" Tips load Aug 93, 5, How does it go fast? Lycoming Dec 93, 7, Lycoming Engine "Care & Feeding" Tips Aug 92, 12, Shop Notes manifold pressure Aug 93, 5, How does it go fast? mixture Dec 93, 7, Lycoming Engine "Care & Feeding" Tips Apr 93, 11, New Products mount bolts Sep 90, 15, "Too Short" Engine Mount Bolts O/360 Jun 93, 9, O-360 Air Box used on IO/320 Air box ordering Jun 92, 12, Want a new Engine? philosophy Oct 93, 10, RV Reflections prices Jun 92, 12, Want a new Engine? spark plugs Dec 93, 7, Lycoming Engine "Care & Feeding" Tips starter Jun 92, 7, An Unfortunate Paradox Sep 90, 15, Sky-Tek Starters thermocouple Aug 92, 11, Builder's Tips throttle Dec 93, 13, Don't Be a Jerk Oct 93, 14, Left Side Throttle Quadrant Apr 93, 11, New Products throttle cable Feb 93, 7, Engine Control Installations events Oct 93, 16, Recent eVents Jun 93, 12, Builders Conferences exhaust system see engine fiberglass Aug 83, 9, Thinking Back Dec 92, 13, Building a Fairing around the RV-6 Optional Windshield Dec 91, 6, Cowl Installation finder's fee Feb 93, 9, Finders Fee - Revisited Apr 92, 13, Finders Fees firewall see fuselage firsts Dec 93, 4, First Flights - RV-6F Oct 93, 19, First Flights - RV-6F Jun 93, 5, The First RV-6 in New Zealand Apr 93, 3, Proceeding Cautiously to Victory - Building an RV in Greece fixed pitch see propeller flange angles Feb 93, 13, Check those Flange Angles flange bearing Apr 93, 13, Washer Clarification flap alignment with aileron Sep 90, 12, Wing Tips construction Aug 93, 7, Twisted flaps fitting Oct 93, 11, Fitting Ailerons and Flaps hinge pin Apr 92, 11, 2 Piece Flap Hinge Pin twisted Aug 93, 7, Twisted flaps flight controls Dec 93, 12, A Cautionary Tale Apr 93, 13, Washer Clarification Feb 93, 9, Fitting an RV-4 Control Column Feb 93, 12, Short Stick = Heavy Elevators (and Ailerons) Jun 92, 13, Rod End Bearing - Min. Thread Engagement flight testing Dec 93, 12, A Cautionary Tale Aug 93, 10, Aftermath Jun 93, 8, Magazine Features Oct 92, 5, Flying at Aft CG Jun 92, 5, Safety Apr 92, 13, Homebuilt Aircraft Performance Testing Mar 92, 12, Recommended Reading floats Dec 93, 4, First Flights - RV-6F Oct 93, 19, First Flights - RV-6F floorboards Aug 83, 9, Thinking Back Florida Apr 92, 5, On the Road Again fly-ins Oct 93, 16, Recent eVents Aug 93, 13, Fly-In Reviews Apr 93, 10, Summer's Here! Feb 93, 10, Sun'N'Fun Travel- Enroute Stopovers Feb 93, 10, England Dec 92, 10, 1992: The Usual Year-In-Review Stuff Oct 92, 17, Calendar and Recent Events Aug 92, 5, Oshkosh '92 - 101 Reasons for Attending Jun 92, 10, Gatherings Apr 92, 5, On the Road Again Sep 91, 11, Oshkosh review Sep 91, 12, RV Homecoming Jun 91, 7, Sun'N'Fun Trip Jun 91, 8, Merced/Bakersfield Sep 90, 5, Fly-In Reviews Sep 90, 8, Oshkosh -- The Long Way flying RVs Jun 91, 14, How Many are Flying flying technique Apr 93, 5, Low Altitude/Low Visibility Traffic Pattern Hazards Apr 93, 7, Landing Techniques for RV-6s (and RV-3s and 4s) Apr 92, 7, Refresher Course-Slow Flight Franek, Mark Dec 93, 14, RV Yearbooks fuel system auto fuel Sep 90, 6, Auto Fuel use in RVs caps Feb 93, 13, Everett Keeler... Jun 92, 13, Care and Feeding of Fuel Caps drain Aug 93, 13, Operating Caution fittings & hoses Sep 91, 15, Builders Tips and Safety Notes Feb 93, 12, Engine Installation: Making and Testing Hoses Dec 92, 10, 1992 RV Accidents pick-up tube Jun 93, 15, New Products Apr 93, 9, Aeroquip Service Bulletin AA135 pump Dec 93, 16, Fuel Pump Core Prices Jun 93, 10, RV-4 Fuel Pump Vent system Jun 91, 5, Fuel Selectors and Fuel Guages slosh Dec 93, 15, Fuel Tank Slosh Sealer Oct 93, 15, Fuel Tank Slosh Problem Jun 91, 5, Fuel Tank Sloshing tanks Oct 93, 13, Gas Fuel Tank Pickup Jun 91, 5, Fuel Tank Sloshing Aug 92, 11, Prebuilt Fuel Tanks valve Mar 92, 8, Fuel Valve Indications Dec 91, 12, Other things to look out for vapor-lock Dec 91, 10, Safety fuselage Feb 93, 8, F-644 Channel- Supplied as One-Piece, Cut in Two Pieces for Use fuselage bulkhead Dec 93, 14, Laser Cut Bulkheads and Ribs firewall Sep 90, 11, Firewall Construction jig Feb 93, 5, Jigs - Let's Be Reasonable wing skin joint Oct 92, 15, Builders Tips G.G. Aug 92, 10, Aft C.G. Comments Jun 92, 7, An Unfortunate Paradox gascolator Aug 93, 13, Operating Caution gear leg see landing gear gear leg fairing see landing gear GeeBee Mar 92, 12, Recommended Reading gliders Dec 93, 16, RV Soar Heads- Unite! GPS see radio Greece Apr 93, 3, Proceeding Cautiously to Victory - Building an RV in Greece guages Sep 91, 13, New Products harmonic vibration dampener see propeller Harmon Rocket Apr 93, Harmon Rocket II - Cont., Harmon Rocket Oct 92, 12, Harmon Rocket II headsets Apr 93, 11, New Products health Mar 91, 6, Gross Weight heating skins Feb 93, 14, Hot Stuff! heat muff Aug 93, 9, Useful Stuff heat selector Aug 93, 9, Useful Stuff Homecoming see Van's Homecoming horizontal stab rod-end bearings Aug 93, 7, Mystery Washer Explained spar Mar 92, 10, Empennage Spar Alignment hose, stainless Sep 90, 14, Possible Problems hoses Apr 93, 9, Aeroquip Service Bulletin AA135 Feb 93, 12, Engine Installation: Making and Testing Hoses IFR Dec 92, 5, IFR in RVs Dec 92, 8, IFR in an RV-6 Dec 92, 9, Confessions of a Scud Runner Oct 92, 10, IFR in RVs incidence angle see wing incidents Jun 93, 6, Oil on the Canopy! Independence Aug 93, 12, Accidents induction hoses Jun 92, 7, Safety Followup inspections Dec 93, 12, A Cautionary Tale Dec 93, 13, Don't Be a Jerk instructor Aug 93, 10, Aftermath instruments Sep 91, 13, New Products instruments airspeed Sep 91, 11, Air Speed & Static System CHT Aug 92, 11, Builder's Tips fuel guage Jun 91, 5, Fuel Selectors and Fuel Guages IFR Dec 92, 5, IFR in RVs Dec 92, 8, IFR in an RV-6 Dec 92, 9, Confessions of a Scud Runner Oct 92, 10, IFR in RVs manifold pressure Aug 92, 8, Manifold Pressure -- Why Bother? VFR Dec 92, 9, Confessions of a Scud Runner interior Apr 92, 14, Upholstered Interiors international Jun 93, 5, The First RV-6 in New Zealand Apr 93, 3, Proceeding Cautiously to Victory - Building an RV in Greece Feb 93, 10, England Dec 92, 10, 1992: The Usual Year-In-Review Stuff inverted flight Sep 91, 6, Preparing an RV-4 for Aerobatic Competition inverted fuel & oil Sep 91, 6, Preparing an RV-4 for Aerobatic Competition jacking Apr 93, 9, Another Way to get your RV in the Air jig Feb 93, 5, Jigs - Let's Be Reasonable Dec 92, 13, Builder's Tips Kerrville Oct 92, 17, Calendar and Recent Events King see radio landing gear axle Dec 93, 15, Landing Gear Axle Inspection & Assembly Apr 93, 9, Another Way to get your RV in the Air fairing Oct 93, 5, How does it go fast? Dec 92, 11, One Piece Landing Gear Leg Fairings Dec 92, 11, Wheel Fairings leg Jun 93, 14, Gear Leg Problems Apr 93, 9, Another Way to get your RV in the Air Feb 93, 8, Pre-Drilled Gear Legs shimmy Jun 91, 13, Balancing Wheel Fairings wheel fairing Feb 93, 8, Two Piece Wheel Fairings Jun 91, 13, Balancing Wheel Fairings landing technique Apr 93, 7, Landing Techniques for RV-6s (and RV-3s and 4s) Apr 92, 7, Refresher Course-Slow Flight Landoll, Mark Jun 92, 7, An Unfortunate Paradox lead fouling Dec 93, 7, Lycoming Engine "Care & Feeding" Tips liability Oct 92, 12, Harmon Rocket II lights Feb 93, 10, Cockpit Light Dimmer Circuit Feb 93, 11, Weight and Balance Considerations in Lighting Systems living room Sep 91, 5, But, is it Housebroken? locating holes Feb 93, 13, J.S. Pallister... London, Don Aug 92, 11, Prebuilt Fuel Tanks Loran see radio low flying Dec 93, 7, Safety Oct 93, 17, Low Flying Aug 93, 12, Accidents MA3 & MA4 carbeurator Oct 92, 16, Builders Tips machine countersinking see countersinking magazines Jun 93, 8, Magazine Features Apr 93, 8, Comments on Recent Aviation Consumer Magazine Articles Aug 92, 10, Aft C.G. Comments Mar 92, 12, Recommended Reading main spar see wing mandatory change Sep 90, 7, Mandatory Change Notice (RV-6 rudder pedal) mandatory service Jun 91, 5, Aileron Hinge Bearings manifold pressure see engine Aug 92, 8, Manifold Pressure -- Why Bother? manuals Oct 92, 18, Plans Revisions Dec 91, 9, New Empennage Plans and Manual marginal VFR Dec 92, 9, Confessions of a Scud Runner Dec 92, 10, 1992 RV Accidents marker beacon see radio master cylinder Jun 93, 10, Brake Master Cylinders-Mount Upright medical Mar 91, 6, Gross Weight Merced Jun 92, 10, Gatherings Jun 91, 8, Merced/Bakersfield modifications Sep 91, 6, Preparing an RV-4 for Aerobatic Competition mogas see fuel system nav/comm see radio navigation Aug 93, 5, How does it go fast? news Oct 93, 16, RVs Featured in Northwest Airlines "On Course" News-Letter Aug 93, 13, NOTARVs Apr 93, 7, Aerobatic Competition Ban on RV-3 Apr 93, 8, Comments on Recent Aviation Consumer Magazine Articles Aug 92, 10, Aft C.G. Comments Nimitz Dec 93, 16, Carrier Based RV-6? nut torque values see AN hardware torque values oil hose Feb 93, 12, Engine Installation: Making and Testing Hoses Sep 90, 14, Possible Problems oil leak Jun 93, 6, Oil on the Canopy! orders Dec 92, 16, Ordering from Van's Orndorff, George & Becki Oct 92, 16, New Products Oshkosh Aug 93, 13, Fly-In Reviews Dec 92, 10, 1992: The Usual Year-In-Review Stuff Aug 92, 5, Oshkosh '92 - 101 Reasons for Attending Sep 91, 11, Oshkosh review Sep 90, 5, Fly-In Reviews Sep 90, 8, Oshkosh -- The Long Way paint Jun 92, 8, Corrosion - A brief Primer Jun 92, 12, Builders Tips Peltor headsets Apr 93, 11, New Products performance Oct 93, 5, How does it go fast? Aug 93, 6, How Fast Does it Go? Jun 93, 7, Sun 100 Race Feb 93, 9, Not Getting Full Performance from your RV? Let's Talk Dec 92, 11, One Piece Landing Gear Leg Fairings Dec 92, 11, Wheel Fairings Apr 92, 13, Homebuilt Aircraft Performance Testing Sep 90, 10, Performance Improvement Sep 90, 17, CAFE Prop Update philosophy Oct 93, 9, Setting Goals Oct 93, 10, RV Reflections Oct 93, 17, Low Flying Phlogiston Apr 92, 11, Building Wing Spars Dec 91, 5, Tired Wings? Anodized Spars and Fatigue Strength photography Jun 93, 12, Another Stupendous Contest pitch stability see stability plans Oct 92, 18, Plans Revisions Aug 92, 12, Shop Notes Dec 91, 9, New Empennage Plans and Manual polish Jun 92, 12, Builders Tips pre-built components Mar 91, 11, 'Superkit' Offered pre-built wing kit see wing pricing Dec 92, 16, Ordering from Van's primary category see certification primer Dec 91, 13, New Products priming Jun 92, 8, Corrosion - A brief Primer Dec 91, 5, Tired Wings? Anodized Spars and Fatigue Strength propeller bolts Apr 93, 10, Bolts for Wood Props Feb 93, 6, Safety Mar 92, 9, Flying Tips Mar 91, 14, Safety C.G. and Jun 92, 7, An Unfortunate Paradox choosing Apr 92, 8, Sensenich Prop Update: finally! Mar 92, 10, Sensenich Metal Prop composite Apr 93, 8, Composite Props - Warp Drive & Ivroprop constant speed Oct 93, 15, Strange CS Prop Behavior Jun 93, 11, The Dummy bolts on a Prop Extension extension Jun 93, 11, The Dummy bolts on a Prop Extension failure Jun 91, 6, Prop Problems ivoprop Apr 93, 8, Composite Props - Warp Drive & Ivroprop Lectro Prop Jun 91, 6, Prop Problems metal see propeller, Sensenich performance Sep 90, 17, CAFE Prop Update position Oct 92, 15, Builders Tips Sensenich Apr 92, 8, Sensenich Prop Update: finally! Mar 92, 10, Sensenich Metal Prop Dec 91, 14, Sensenich Fixed-Pitch Metal Prop (update) Sep 91, 13, Notes Jun 91, 6, Prop Problems Sep 90, 15, Sensenich Metal Prop Update spinner plate Oct 93, 15, Front Spinner Plate for propeller:Sensenich vibration dampener Jun 92, 7, An Unfortunate Paradox Warp Drive Aug 83, 8, Warp Drive Prop Update Jun 93, 8, Magazine Features Apr 93, 8, Composite Props - Warp Drive & Ivroprop


May 07, 1993 - February 19, 1994

RV-Archive.digest.vol-ac