RV-Archive.digest.vol-rc

July 20, 2005 - August 03, 2005



From: <dwhite17(at)columbus.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Control Stick Grip
Date: Jul 20, 2005
Yes, even with the stick cut a shorter, it would hit the throttle control and other things. It's too bad, we really liked the look and feel. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: Garmin 327 and Dynon
Date: Jul 20, 2005
To get to the setup configuration page, shut the GTX-327 off. Then, hold the "FUNC" key while turning the unit on. This brings up the Configuration pages. Press the FUNC key again until you reach the "RS-232" INPUT screen, the select the "ICARUS ALT" format. That should take care of everything. Make sure you have the D-10A setup correctly with Baud Rates and all (available in the Dynon Install Manual). Hope this helps! Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Travis Hamblen Subject: RV-List: Garmin 327 and Dynon I have a Dynon D10A that I am using as the encoder for my Garmin 327. The problem is that I can't get the Garmin 327 to display the altitude, which means it isn't recognizing it from the Dynon. I called Dynon and they told me how to configure the Dynon for the right type of output, but they didn't know what I needed to configure on the Garmin 327. Does anyone out there that has this setup remember what they had to change on the Garmin to have it recognize the Dynon? Any help is MUCH appreciated! Travis -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Tie down anchors
Date: Jul 21, 2005
Listers, In the final stages of building an airpark house, I would like to set some tie down anchors in the (yet to be poured) concrete slab at the front of the hangar. What do you all think would work the best? Should they be recessed? Protrude up from the surface? Removable by threading into anchors of some sort? I'd like them to be easy to thread a rope through or clip a carabiner to, but also don't want them to be a trip hazard for kids, skateboards and such. Any ideas welcome! Brian Denk RV8 N94BD RV10 '51 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2005
From: Paul Trotter <ptrotter(at)acm.org>
Subject: Re: Tie down anchors
Brian, I would put in an eyebolt, probably 1/2", in a recessed circle about 4" in diameter, such that the top of the eyebolt is level with the top of the concrete. That way it is not too deep, but if you step on it, you will probably not trip. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com> Subject: RV-List: Tie down anchors > > Listers, > > In the final stages of building an airpark house, I would like to set some > tie down anchors in the (yet to be poured) concrete slab at the front of the > hangar. What do you all think would work the best? Should they be > recessed? Protrude up from the surface? Removable by threading into anchors > of some sort? I'd like them to be easy to thread a rope through or clip a > carabiner to, but also don't want them to be a trip hazard for kids, > skateboards and such. > > Any ideas welcome! > > Brian Denk > RV8 N94BD > RV10 '51 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLWynn(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 20, 2005
Subject: Re: E-703/Elevator skin mis-match
In a message dated 7/20/2005 5:32:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kboatright1(at)comcast.net writes: Is there any chance you're installing the left elevator rib on the right elevator? It would be upside down and backwards in that instance, and might cause the kind of misalignment you're seeing. KB Hi Kyle I don't think so. Both are the same part number and actually, when I tried it, both fit the left skin. I am going to take the rest of the skeleton out and see if there is some sort of misalignment in the spar. This is a real head-scratcher for me. Thanks, Michael Wynn RV 8 in confusion. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2005
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: lower cowl fit to FAB schnozzle
I just finished the extension of the fiberglass inlet on the induction scoop so that it matches the inlet to the FAB. Ken at Van's calls that fiberglass extension the schnozzle. Good name for it. I then followed the instructions for mounting the strip of baffle material to the inlet of the FAB. Since the FAB necks down towards the front, the forward opening of the baffle material tends to neck down too. So it's smaller than the schnozzle on the cowl. So, the cowl won't go on now. The instructions say to cut some notches in the baffle material to get it to go around the schnozzle. Now I know why. But, how many notches is typical and how deep (how far aft) should those cuts typically go? -- Tom Sargent RV-6A , cowling. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 21, 2005
Subject: Re: Control Stick Grip
In a message dated 07/20/2005 4:56:43 PM Central Standard Time, dwhite17(at)columbus.rr.com writes: We tried the CH Products grip on our RV6. The grip cants forward, and we were not able to use because we put a lower extension on our panel and the grip would hit it before hitting the stops. >>> Same situation with mine- would just barely touch the throttle when in a full right bank & full dive, DAR didn't like it- just whacked a bit off the stick til it fit and he was happy- Just LOVE my CH grips! Mark Phillips -6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 21, 2005
Subject: Re: lower cowl fit to FAB schnozzle
In a message dated 07/20/2005 9:24:28 PM Central Standard Time, sarg314(at)comcast.net writes: So, the cowl won't go on now. >>>>> Here's an alternative ya might want to try: http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5296 Click "Next Entry" at the top of the page for more- works great, simple to do & you don't even have to think about the inlet seals when messing with the cowl... Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Besing" <paul(at)kitlog.com>
Subject: Control Stick Grip
Date: Jul 21, 2005
You can't go wrong with Infinity Aero's grips. They are top notch quality, and he can build them custom to however you like with just about any switch combination. I didn't end up using many of the switches, but I loved having the trim and flaps on the switch. Paul Besing RV-6A Sold Kitlog Builder's Software www.kitlog.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of flynlow Subject: RV-List: Control Stick Grip Hello Group; Now this may sound like a stupid question at first but think about it. I see a lot of military control stick grips on Ebay, usually over $200! Has anyone ever attempted to use a "game" type of joy stick grip and adapt it to an RV? Yes they are lighter in weight, but if disassembled, could one be filled with fiberglass jelly to strengthen it? Could the switches be adapted? Let me know what you all think. Bud Silvers Black Forest, Colorado RV-8 underway. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net>
Subject: Re: Control Stick Grip
Date: Jul 21, 2005
Mark: Yea, right....... I do that full forward dive while full right stick roll move all the time myself. NOT...:-) It was a dream I think -- probably a bad one. I can only imagine what it feels and looks like. Wonder if I would recover or if the wings and tail would still be attached. How fast you enter into this is probably real important. Seriously, what kind of flying you doing anyway and who you got insurance with and how do you tie everything down inside the cockpit and what kind of seatbelt/harnesses you use and what parachute do you wear? no not archive for obvious reasons. Have a nice day and keep cool. 95 and 90% humidity for today, tomorrow, and the day after that in So. Indiana. Good day to go swimming or flying high. Seriously....... Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) ----- Original Message ----- From: <Fiveonepw(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: RV-List: Control Stick Grip > > In a message dated 07/20/2005 4:56:43 PM Central Standard Time, > dwhite17(at)columbus.rr.com writes: > We tried the CH Products grip on our RV6. The grip cants forward, and we > were not able to use because we put a lower extension on our panel and the > grip would hit it before hitting the stops. >>>> > > Same situation with mine- would just barely touch the throttle when in a > full > right bank & full dive, DAR didn't like it- just whacked a bit off the > stick > til it fit and he was happy- Just LOVE my CH grips! > > Mark Phillips -6A > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com>
Subject: Copperstate 05
Date: Jul 21, 2005
Can somebody tell me when the Copperstate flyin will be, and the airport designator? I've got some vacation time that I have to use and thought that it might be nice to go this year..... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV 445 Hrs - 2'd offender ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bobby Hester" <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net>
Date: Jul 21, 2005
Subject: Re: Control Stick Grip
I can see how a DAR would not sign off if anything interfered with the stick movement, I'm sure the one I plan on using would not allow it. Hack saw in hand! Oh and by the way, I don't think your really flying yet, I have seen you ;-) ------- Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY RV7A web site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Larryroberthelming wrote... > >Mark: Yea, right....... I do that full forward dive while full right stick >roll move all the time myself. NOT...:-) It was a dream I think -- >probably a bad one. I can only imagine what it feels and looks like. >Wonder if I would recover or if the wings and tail would still be attached. >How fast you enter into this is probably real important. > >Seriously, what kind of flying you doing anyway and who you got insurance >with and how do you tie everything down inside the cockpit and what kind of >seatbelt/harnesses you use and what parachute do you wear? no not archive >for obvious reasons. Have a nice day and keep cool. 95 and 90% humidity >for today, tomorrow, and the day after that in So. Indiana. Good day to go >swimming or flying high. Seriously....... > >Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies > >Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." > (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <Fiveonepw(at)aol.com> >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: Control Stick Grip > > >> >> In a message dated 07/20/2005 4:56:43 PM Central Standard Time, >> dwhite17(at)columbus.rr.com writes: >> We tried the CH Products grip on our RV6. The grip cants forward, and we >> were not able to use because we put a lower extension on our panel and the >> grip would hit it before hitting the stops. >>>>> >> >> Same situation with mine- would just barely touch the throttle when in a >> full >> right bank & full dive, DAR didn't like it- just whacked a bit off the >> stick >> til it fit and he was happy- Just LOVE my CH grips! >> >> Mark Phillips -6A >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2005
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: Copperstate 05
http://www.copperstate.org/ > > >Can somebody tell me when the Copperstate flyin will be, and the airport >designator? >I've got some vacation time that I have to use and thought that it might be >nice to >go this year..... > >Fred Stucklen >RV-6A N926RV >445 Hrs - 2'd offender > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hull, Don" <Donald.C.Hull(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: Garmin 396
Date: Jul 21, 2005
Ooooh, and to think this is going to be "old technology" by the time I get my 7 flying! :-( You guys be good to your 396's...when you upgrade to the next generation, I may want to buy one of your used 396's!!! ; ) I need to get to the shop and pound some more rivets... Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Subject: RE: RV-List: Garmin 396 Aviation Consumer just published a lengthy review of the 396 on their website. Bottom line is they like it -- a lot. Terry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2005
From: rv6fly <rv6fly(at)bresnan.net>
Subject: Re: lower cowl fit to FAB schnozzle
Fiveonepw(at)aol.com wrote: >Here's an alternative ya might want to try: > >http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5296 > >Click "Next Entry" at the top of the page for more- works great, simple to do >& you don't even have to think about the inlet seals when messing with the >cowl... > >Mark > I was just going to suggest what you posted, Mark :-) Another help for cowl removal is to make the horizontal baffles that fit under the lip of the bottom cowl removable. I used a couple of #6 stainless screws per side. Bob Skinner RV6 (sold) (also built a Glasair and helped with 2 Glastar projects and 4 or 5 RV projects) -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "jdwilson16" <jdwilson16(at)cox.net>
Subject: Copperstate 05
Date: Jul 21, 2005
COPPERSTATE 2005 is October 6-9. It moved to the Casa Grande Municipal Airport (CGZ). Come join us. http://www.copperstate.org/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR Subject: RV-List: Copperstate 05 Can somebody tell me when the Copperstate flyin will be, and the airport designator? I've got some vacation time that I have to use and thought that it might be nice to go this year..... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV 445 Hrs - 2'd offender ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2005
Subject: Re: E-703/Elevator skin mis-match
From: cecilth(at)juno.com
Call Vans, Help is what they do best. Cecil > > In a message dated 7/20/2005 5:32:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > kboatright1(at)comcast.net writes: > Is there any chance you're installing the left elevator rib on the > right > elevator? It would be upside down and backwards in that instance, > and might > cause the kind of misalignment you're seeing. > > KB > Hi Kyle > > I don't think so. Both are the same part number and actually, when > I tried > it, both fit the left skin. I am going to take the rest of the > skeleton out > and see if there is some sort of misalignment in the spar. This is > a real > head-scratcher for me. > > Thanks, > > Michael Wynn > RV 8 in confusion. > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2005
From: Skylor Piper <skylor4(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Got an interesting engine problem/solution and a ?
Maybe. Sometimes when one cylinder isn't firing, the engine stumbles & shakes so much that it's really hard to tell which cylinder isn't firing. --- Marty wrote: > > > |-----Original Message----- > > | > |... This also makes it > |easy to find a dead plug on one cylinder, since > there > |will be no EGT change on that cyclinder when > turning > |off the bad plug. > | > |Skylor > |RV-8 QB > |Under Construction > > > True, but wouldn't it be even easier to detect a bad > plug when you > turn off the 'good' plug? ;) > > Marty > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2005
From: "Matt Johnson" <matt(at)n559rv.com>
Subject: whiskeybravo.com
(not processed: message from valid local sender) What happened to www.whiskeybravo.com? It has been down at least the last couple days? - Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2005
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Control Stick Length
HI all: This thread got me to thinking.....I've seen and flown a few RV-6s with the sticks full length as provided by Van's. I like to rest my hand on my thigh and fly with my fingertips most of the time and I'd like to have my stick grip (PTT etc.) close by when doing so. So.....gotta cut the sticks off. Good or bad idea? Any suggestions as to how much to cut off? If you don't remember how much you cut off just measure up from the top of the bearing tube that the pivot bolt goes through. Tell me what your reference point is. Thanks. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Ahh baffles ------Original Message------------------------------------------------------ From: <dwhite17(at)columbus.rr.com> Subject: Re: RV-List: Control Stick Grip We tried the CH Products grip on our RV6. The grip cants forward, and we were not able to use because we put a lower extension on our panel and the grip would hit it before hitting the stops. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2005
Subject: Control Stick Grip
From: alan(at)reichertech.com
This thread has concentrated on control stick grips. What about throttle grips? For example, the F-15 throttles put a number of functions in the left hand. Anyone make something similar? - Alan > From: "Paul Besing" <paul(at)kitlog.com> > Subject: RE: RV-List: Control Stick Grip > > > You can't go wrong with Infinity Aero's grips. They are top notch > quality, > and he can build them custom to however you like with just about any > switch > combination. > > I didn't end up using many of the switches, but I loved having the trim > and > flaps on the switch. > > Paul Besing > RV-6A Sold > Kitlog Builder's Software > www.kitlog.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CBRxxDRV(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 22, 2005
Subject: Re: Control Stick Grip
In a message dated 7/22/2005 7:08:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, alan(at)reichertech.com writes: > This thread has concentrated on control stick grips. What about throttle > grips? For example, the F-15 throttles put a number of functions in the > left hand. Anyone make something similar? > Infinity makes a throttle full of switchs. RV-4 RV-8 QB .... Fuselage Sal Capra Lakeland, FL My Home Page ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2005
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Control Stick Grip
Sure do! http://www.infinityaerospace.com/Quadrant.htm The Infinity 1 Military Throttle Handle and Quadrant, too, was designed with safety, comfort, functionality and durability in mind. The ergonomic handle is tear drop shaped with finger knurls, fits the entire palm of the hand, and is canted 15 degrees counter-clockwise for left hand operation and wrist comfort. The right throttle handle is just like the left, but cants 15 degrees clockwise (of course). The center console mounted throttle handle is horizontal between the pilot and co-pilot, with the three 4-way switches installed on BOTH sides of the throttle handle and are wired in parallel so either the pilot or co-pilot has the same controls. The non-glare black finish is also abrasion and impact resistant for long life, yet is easily maintainable and repairable. The HOT has 10 to 13 switches / 19 functions on a 1 to 3 lever quadrant. Throttle quadrant lever possibilities: Three levers for throttle, mixture and constant speed prop; OR -- two levers for throttle and mixture if the prop is either a computerized constant-speed prop or a fixed pitch prop; OR -- one lever for throttle only if the aircraft is jet powered, or the engine has duel electronic ignition and the prop is either a computerized constant-speed prop or a fixed pitch prop. The old technology of a single throttle / quadrant friction knob (or lever) smashing all levers, has been replaced by a modern system whereby each lever has an adjustable ratcheting action that keeps the levers from creeping, yet levers still move easily. The thumb will operate three, 4-way UP-and-DN / fore-and-aft momentary in all direction switches on the side of the throttle handle, which can power anything that needs a N.O. momentary switch. EXAMPLES: The middle 4-way momentary switch controls VHF COM 1 & 2 (UP / DN) Push-to-Talk (PTT). The fore / aft movement could be used for CB or telephone PTT, or transponder IDENT, or stepping frequencies, or frequency flip-flop (now you don't need to buy that ~$2500 Audio Panel -- we don't use Audio Panels in the Navy); the 4-way momentary switch located aft of the center PTT can operate flaps or flaperons (UP / DN), and the speed brake (fore / aft) (or electric cowl flaps, or switch between radios, or switch between navigation radios, or electric prop); and the 4-way momentary switch forward of the center PTT controls the moving map cursor / mouse for the new EFIS Systems (such as Blue Moutain Avioincs EFIS 1) and GPS's. The momentary push-button switch on the front side under the index finger is the 'pick' push-button for the moving map cursor / mouse. The middle finger operates the N.O. momentary Engine Start, and the ring finger operates an ON/OFF Auxiliary Fuel Pump push-button -- now, the pilot doesn't have to stop flying the aircraft in an emergency to look down into the cockpit to find the Engine Start *or* the Auxiliary Fuel Pump Switch. Handles can be customized -- for those who want to fly with the Stick Grip in the left hand and use the throttle in the right hand (~18% of the world is left handed), the company will swap the controls for Infinity 1 customers. We are the manufacturers of the only left handed Stick Grips AND right handed throttle handles for Sport Aircraft in the world! We also have 2 row handle models of the 4-way switches, or no switches (blanks) on either side of the handle. But the bottom pushbuttons will still be there. > > >This thread has concentrated on control stick grips. What about throttle >grips? For example, the F-15 throttles put a number of functions in the >left hand. Anyone make something similar? > >- Alan > > > From: "Paul Besing" <paul(at)kitlog.com> > > Subject: RE: RV-List: Control Stick Grip > > > > > > You can't go wrong with Infinity Aero's grips. They are top notch > > quality, > > and he can build them custom to however you like with just about any > > switch > > combination. > > > > I didn't end up using many of the switches, but I loved having the trim > > and > > flaps on the switch. > > > > Paul Besing > > RV-6A Sold > > Kitlog Builder's Software > > www.kitlog.com > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net>
Subject: Re: Control Stick Length
Date: Jul 22, 2005
The more you cut off the easier it is to get in and out of the plane. On the down side if you can call it that, the more you cut off the more sensitive your controls are. I like leaving it somewhat long at first. Too short could be deadly unless you are a better pilot. Look at Vans planes at O this year and see where they set theirs. I bet theirs are neither too long or too short. Take a string along to measure. I am not sure I have mine cut where I want it yet. With a grip on top I cut mine so it just would barely not interfere with my panel and other controls. I might take another inch or so off once I get better at flying this sensitive and responsive SunSeeker. Still learning.......The grin is still there after 50 hours............What more can I say.......Keep pounding those rivets..........It does not get much better than flying your own RV.......... Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> Subject: RV-List: Control Stick Length > > > HI all: > > This thread got me to thinking.....I've seen and flown a few RV-6s with > the > sticks full length as provided by Van's. I like to rest my hand on my > thigh > and fly with my fingertips most of the time and I'd like to have my stick > grip (PTT etc.) close by when doing so. So.....gotta cut the sticks off. > Good or bad idea? Any suggestions as to how much to cut off? If you > don't > remember how much you cut off just measure up from the top of the bearing > tube that the pivot bolt goes through. Tell me what your reference point > is. > Thanks. > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > Ahh baffles > > ------Original > Message------------------------------------------------------ > From: <dwhite17(at)columbus.rr.com> > Subject: Re: RV-List: Control Stick Grip > > > We tried the CH Products grip on our RV6. The grip cants forward, and we > were not able to use because we put a lower extension on our panel and the > grip would hit it before hitting the stops. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2005
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Control Stick Length
I fly the same way so whether it is a good idea or not I can't say. The fact that no one flies around me might be a clue. I measured from the welded offset in the stick. That point is almost at the same height (above the floor) as the bolt that runs fore/aft adjacent and right of the stick. Currently the top of my stick is 11.75 inches above that weld point. The PTT switch is on top and I have to use another hand to use it so I am estimating that I would prefer the stick to be 2 inches SHORTER. No way does my stick get close to any panel surface. If I had a RV with the normal length stick that would be hacked off right away. Ron Lee >This thread got me to thinking.....I've seen and flown a few RV-6s with the >sticks full length as provided by Van's. I like to rest my hand on my thigh >and fly with my fingertips most of the time and I'd like to have my stick >grip (PTT etc.) close by when doing so. So.....gotta cut the sticks off. >Good or bad idea? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Brick" <jebrick(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RV-10 Tail Kit For Sale
Date: Jul 22, 2005
Posted for a friend. Please contact Terry RV-10 tail cone kit. Horizontal Stab, Vertical Stab, Rudder, and Elevators completed. Tail cone not started, so items can be shipped easily. Previous RV builder constructed. At Pierce County - Thun Field (1S0) Puyallup, WA $3800 Terry O'Brien Call 206-915-7370 or email rvflyer(at)comcast.net for pictures. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2005
From: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com>
Subject: Adel Clamp Hardware
15, 2004) at 07/22/2005 10:12:49 AM, Serialize by Router on MailServ58-US/AUS/H/NIC(Release 6.5.3FP1|December 15, 2004) at 07/22/2005 10:12:52 AM, Serialize complete at 07/22/2005 10:12:52 AM Hi All, I'm getting ready to place a "parts" order and since I've yet to work w/ Adel clamps, I've got a quick question: What is the standard/recommened way to attach Adel clamps to each other? Using an AN3 bolt w/ a lock nut or AN515-8R8 pan-head screw w/ a lock nut? Thanks, /\/elson RV-7A - Fuse Austin, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Control Stick Grip
Date: Jul 22, 2005
This throttle quadrant has been "coming soon" for about as long as I have been building, and I have kit number 80729. (Started June '98) Has anyone ever seen one? Terry Sure do! http://www.infinityaerospace.com/Quadrant.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: Adel Clamp Hardware 15, 2004) at 07/22/2005 10:12:49 AM,
Serialize by Router on MailServ58-US/AUS/H/NIC(Release 6.5.3FP1|December 15, 2004) at 07/22/2005 10:12:52 AM, Serialize complete at 07/22/2005 10:12:52 AM
Date: Jul 22, 2005
Either one works just fine, but the larger screws will come in handy when you need to work on them, as a screwdriver is usually much more handy and a bit faster than using a ratchet/socket combo, etc... Just my 2 cents! Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of David E. Nelson Subject: RV-List: Adel Clamp Hardware 15, 2004) at 07/22/2005 10:12:49 AM, Serialize by Router on MailServ58-US/AUS/H/NIC(Release 6.5.3FP1|December 15, 2004) at 07/22/2005 10:12:52 AM, Serialize complete at 07/22/2005 10:12:52 AM Hi All, I'm getting ready to place a "parts" order and since I've yet to work w/ Adel clamps, I've got a quick question: What is the standard/recommened way to attach Adel clamps to each other? Using an AN3 bolt w/ a lock nut or AN515-8R8 pan-head screw w/ a lock nut? Thanks, /\/elson RV-7A - Fuse Austin, TX ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2005
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Control Stick Grip
I was also surprised that it is not on the market yet. I did see one at OSH last year and the designer one brought over to my hanger to see if it would fit in an RV-8a. It would, with a little custom sheet metal work. If you want a drop in, this is not for you. > >This throttle quadrant has been "coming soon" for about as long as I have >been building, and I have kit number 80729. (Started June '98) Has anyone >ever seen one? > >Terry > > >Sure do! >http://www.infinityaerospace.com/Quadrant.htm > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Adel Clamp Hardware 15, 2004) at 07/22/2005 10:12:49 AM,
Serialize by Router on MailServ58-US/AUS/H/NIC(Release 6.5.3FP1|December 15, 2004) at 07/22/2005 10:12:52 AM, Serialize complete at 07/22/2005 10:12:52 AM
Date: Jul 22, 2005
On 22 Jul 2005, at 11:12, David E. Nelson wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > I'm getting ready to place a "parts" order and since I've yet to > work w/ Adel > clamps, I've got a quick question: > > What is the standard/recommened way to attach Adel clamps to each > other? > Using an AN3 bolt w/ a lock nut or AN515-8R8 pan-head screw w/ a > lock nut? > > Thanks, > /\/elson > RV-7A - Fuse > Austin, TX Either will work, but most people seem to use the AN515-8RX screw, as it is strong enough, lighter, cheaper, and it is easier to get it in the Adel clamp holes (things tend to move around a bit as you are assembling them, and the additional clearance between the screw and the side of the hole helps). If you are on the engine side of the firewall, use all metal locknuts, such as AN363-832 nuts. These can be a bit tight, and you will twist off the occasional AN515 screw - it helps to use something like Boelube, or some other waxy solid lubricant on the screw threads. Have fun, Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: first flight
Date: Jul 22, 2005
Hi all, First flight today of RV7 G-XIII at Newtownards airfield, Northern Ireland. this is the first RV constructed in Northern Ireland. build time approx 1.5 years. New O-360A1A, sensenich prop.empty weight 1029LBS on calibrated scales. Dedicated to my late fiancee Ellen Dalzell who passed away on May 4th 2005, afetr loosing battle with cancer Marcel de Ruiter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
Subject: E-703/Elevator skin mis-match
Date: Jul 22, 2005
Just a thought, I've had parts mislabeled. By this I mean that inventory was OK but the part was not the one that the label said it was - happened on the RV8 ailerons. Michele > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MLWynn(at)aol.com > Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:03 AM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: E-703/Elevator skin mis-match > > > In a message dated 7/20/2005 5:32:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > kboatright1(at)comcast.net writes: > Is there any chance you're installing the left elevator rib on the right > elevator? It would be upside down and backwards in that instance, and > might > cause the kind of misalignment you're seeing. > > KB > Hi Kyle > > I don't think so. Both are the same part number and actually, when I > tried > it, both fit the left skin. I am going to take the rest of the skeleton > out > and see if there is some sort of misalignment in the spar. This is a real > head-scratcher for me. > > Thanks, > > Michael Wynn > RV 8 in confusion. > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2005
From: bill shook <billshook2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: first flight
Congratulations Marcel. Fly safe, fly fast and fly often. Bill -4 wings --- RAS wrote: > > Hi all, > > First flight today of RV7 G-XIII at Newtownards airfield, Northern Ireland. > this is the first RV constructed in Northern Ireland. build time approx 1.5 > years. New O-360A1A, sensenich prop.empty weight 1029LBS on calibrated > scales. Dedicated to my late fiancee Ellen Dalzell who passed away on May > 4th 2005, afetr loosing battle with cancer > > Marcel de Ruiter > > > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hull, Don" <Donald.C.Hull(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: first flight
Date: Jul 22, 2005
Congratulations, Marcel! And what a wonderful tribute to Ellen. Each time you fly, you'll be a little closer to her. Best Wishes, Don Hull RV-7 Emp North Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RAS Subject: RV-List: first flight --> Hi all, First flight today of RV7 G-XIII at Newtownards airfield, Northern Ireland. this is the first RV constructed in Northern Ireland. build time approx 1.5 years. New O-360A1A, sensenich prop.empty weight 1029LBS on calibrated scales. Dedicated to my late fiancee Ellen Dalzell who passed away on May 4th 2005, afetr loosing battle with cancer Marcel de Ruiter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Donald L. Erickson" <dle(at)joplin.com>
Subject: Tailwheel
Date: Jul 22, 2005
mail003.fastfreedom.net autolearn=ham version=3.0.2 Does any one have a drawing of Van's current RV 8 tailwheel. Mine is new and does not lock into the steering arm. The spring and plunger move freely but fail to extend into the "pocket" in the aft area of the housing. What am I missing? Don N874DE Finish Kit ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark" <2eyedocs(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: OSH Internet
Date: Jul 22, 2005
"Anyone know if there is wireless internet access on the OSH grounds?" Larry, My thoughts, exactly. How do they expect us to be away from the List for so long if they don't have a connection? ;-) Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2005
From: "Richard Leach" <papadaddyo(at)verizon.net>
Subject: oops dimple
In my efforts to be extra careful, I succeeded in letting my C-frame slip and I put a dimple in the VS skin almost perfectly in line with the other holes and maybe =BC inch from another hole. I did not penetrate the skin, only made a dent. Noticable if you look close. I have debated what to do to include ordering another skin. I could use some advice. I have thought about taking a ball peen hammer and lightly tapping it out; drilling a hole in the dimple and then the flange and then putting in an extra rivet; or, using some sort of a filler after the vs is together. Would someone please advise. I=92m sure I am not the first this has happened to. I searched the archives but didn=92t find anything specific. For all of you at or going to Osh, I=92m jealous. Hope to see you next year. Send out the poop on the new stuff from osh on panels. Tim, yours is looking good. thanks Rick Leach 40397 N512RM reserved ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: oops dimple
Date: Jul 22, 2005
If you have decent edge distance (the distance was garbled in your note), you can probably deal with it easily. Personally, I'd cleco the assembly together, put a bucking bar under the flange beneath the excess dimple, and use the flat set in your rivet gun to carefully flatten the dimple. If there is a blemish left, fill it before you paint. KB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Leach" <papadaddyo(at)verizon.net> Subject: RV-List: oops dimple > > In my efforts to be extra careful, I succeeded in letting my C-frame > slip and I put a dimple in the VS skin almost perfectly in line with the > other holes and maybe =BC inch from another hole. I did not penetrate the > skin, only made a dent. Noticable if you look close. I have debated > what to do to include ordering another skin. I could use some advice. > I have thought about taking a ball peen hammer and lightly tapping it > out; drilling a hole in the dimple and then the flange and then putting > in an extra rivet; or, using some sort of a filler after the vs is > together. Would someone please advise. I=92m sure I am not the first > this has happened to. I searched the archives but didn=92t find anything > specific. > For all of you at or going to Osh, I=92m jealous. Hope to see you next > year. Send out the poop on the new stuff from osh on panels. Tim, yours > is looking good. > > thanks > > Rick Leach > 40397 > N512RM reserved > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Subject: OSH Internet
Date: Jul 22, 2005
I was prompted to ask because of the picture on the camping page: http://airventure.org/2005/planning/camping_with_aircraft.html Maybe he's playing solitare... - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 7:38 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: OSH Internet > > > "Anyone know if there is wireless internet access on the OSH grounds?" > > > Larry, > > My thoughts, exactly. How do they expect us to be away from > the List for so long if they don't have a connection? ;-) > > Mark > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: oops dimple
Date: Jul 22, 2005
Put it up against your back riveting plate, and shoot it a bit with your flush rivet set. It should flatten out. Worst case, you'll use some filler there before paint. Or...if the hole doesn't coincide with a rib or spar flange or whatever, just drill it out, deburr it, dimple it, and put a rivet in. It'll look like it was meant to be. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Leach" <papadaddyo(at)verizon.net> Subject: RV-List: oops dimple > > In my efforts to be extra careful, I succeeded in letting my C-frame > slip and I put a dimple in the VS skin almost perfectly in line with the > other holes and maybe =BC inch from another hole. I did not penetrate the > skin, only made a dent. Noticable if you look close. I have debated > what to do to include ordering another skin. I could use some advice. > I have thought about taking a ball peen hammer and lightly tapping it > out; drilling a hole in the dimple and then the flange and then putting > in an extra rivet; or, using some sort of a filler after the vs is > together. Would someone please advise. I=92m sure I am not the first > this has happened to. I searched the archives but didn=92t find anything > specific. > For all of you at or going to Osh, I=92m jealous. Hope to see you next > year. Send out the poop on the new stuff from osh on panels. Tim, yours > is looking good. > > thanks > > Rick Leach > 40397 > N512RM reserved > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLWynn(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 22, 2005
Subject: Re: oops dimple
I also did this, same general method. I was worried and took it to my Saturday morning EAA breakfast (where my local EAA tech counselor can always be found). He said basically what everyone else here said: flatten it out carefully. Fill and paint. It is otherwise inconsequential. Good luck Michael Wynn RV-8 Empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2005
From: "Tim Bryan" <flyrv6(at)bryantechnology.com>
Subject: Re: oops dimple
Rick, don't buy another skin for this. things will happen along the way and you will find the best way to deal with it. My recent oops was a biggie New skin not an option. I was drilling from the inside out for the fuel vent line and somehow managed to drill a 1/2" hole in the side of the fues *Above* the wing area. Dang! Patch and fill will have to be the answer, cause it goes to the airport in two weeks and I'm not budging. Tim -------Original Message------- From: Richard Leach Date: 07/22/05 18:17:55 Subject: RV-List: oops dimple In my efforts to be extra careful, I succeeded in letting my C-frame slip and I put a dimple in the VS skin almost perfectly in line with the other holes and maybe BC inch from another hole. I did not penetrate the skin, only made a dent. Noticable if you look close. I have debated what to do to include ordering another skin. I could use some advice. I have thought about taking a ball peen hammer and lightly tapping it out; drilling a hole in the dimple and then the flange and then putting in an extra rivet; or, using some sort of a filler after the vs is together. Would someone please advise. I92m sure I am not the first this has happened to. I searched the archives but didn92t find anything specific. For all of you at or going to Osh, I92m jealous. Hope to see you next year. Send out the poop on the new stuff from osh on panels. Tim, yours is looking good. thanks Rick Leach 40397 N512RM reserved ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2005
From: John Huft <rv8(at)lazy8.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwheel
autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.3 Don, I seem to remember having this problem too...the shaft wouldn't rise far enough in the housing to allow the plunger to get to the pocket...I think there was a sharp corner on the bottom of the housing that needed to be chamfered. John Donald L. Erickson wrote: > >Does any one have a drawing of Van's current RV 8 tailwheel. Mine is new and does not lock into the steering arm. The spring and plunger move freely but fail to extend into the "pocket" in the aft area of the housing. What am I missing? >Don >N874DE Finish Kit > > >. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2005
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: oops dimple
An easy way to fill it up is to just go ahead and put a rivet in it. One more rivet in your skin isn't going to draw much attention, though it will be out of line with the rest. One more pebble on the beach. -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A, cowl. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2005
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: E-703/Elevator skin mis-match
MLWynn(at)aol.com wrote: > >Hi all, > >So here's a weird one: > >I was trying to put the right hand elevator structure together with the skin >prepartory to reaming the holes. When I line up all the holes with clecos, >there is a 1/4 twist to the trailing edge and really funky bulge at E-703. If I >take the clecos out of one side, everything lines up fine. It looks like the >holes on one side of E-703, the elevator outboard rib, are off by about 1/8 >or a little more along one side. > >I tried both a fluted and ready to go rib and a second non-fluted one (the >left one I hadn't worked on yet). This is really odd as everything else has >lined up perfectly. If I force the skin and rib together, then I do not have >anything resembling a straight elevator trailing edge. If I put it together >straight, the holes are not lining up. Everything else seems to fit just >perfectly including the other outboard rib and the counterweight skin. > >Suggestions? > >For those of you following my (mis)adventures with the elevator skin >stiffeners, I was able to trim them up to avoid any contact with the opposing skin. >The very slight creases are almost invisible. I think I will proceed with >assembly (if I can figure this other issue out) and show it to my tech counselor. > >Regards, > >Michael Wynn >RV-8, Empennage >San Ramon, California > Inspect the rib carefully in comparison with the other outboard rib. Use calipers if needed to measure flange width & hole position. Does everything match if they are placed back to back? Look at the tooling holes in the web of the rib. Any evidence of them being deformed? I had a problem with holes in several main ribs in the wing not lining up with the wing & discovered that they had not been seated properly on the tooling pins before the flanges were pressed. The flanges were *slightly* different widths & the tooling holes were elongated slightly where the tooling pins tried to punch their own holes. Of course, when I called Van's, this had never happened before & probably wasn't happening to me either. (The new rib they shipped didn't have the distorted tooling holes & all the prepunched holes lined up perfectly with spar & skins.) Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: E-703/Elevator skin mis-match
Date: Jul 24, 2005
Hi Charlie, I have heard this before. There's a guy here in Northern Ireland who said he same problem with RV7. He called Van's and they send out replacement. Incidently his is one of the first batch of 100 that had the narrow rudder. Marcel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: E-703/Elevator skin mis-match > > MLWynn(at)aol.com wrote: > >> >>Hi all, >> >>So here's a weird one: >> >>I was trying to put the right hand elevator structure together with the >>skin >>prepartory to reaming the holes. When I line up all the holes with >>clecos, >>there is a 1/4 twist to the trailing edge and really funky bulge at E-703. >>If I >>take the clecos out of one side, everything lines up fine. It looks like >>the >>holes on one side of E-703, the elevator outboard rib, are off by about >>1/8 >>or a little more along one side. >> >>I tried both a fluted and ready to go rib and a second non-fluted one (the >>left one I hadn't worked on yet). This is really odd as everything else >>has >>lined up perfectly. If I force the skin and rib together, then I do not >>have >>anything resembling a straight elevator trailing edge. If I put it >>together >>straight, the holes are not lining up. Everything else seems to fit just >>perfectly including the other outboard rib and the counterweight skin. >> >>Suggestions? >> >>For those of you following my (mis)adventures with the elevator skin >>stiffeners, I was able to trim them up to avoid any contact with the >>opposing skin. >>The very slight creases are almost invisible. I think I will proceed with >>assembly (if I can figure this other issue out) and show it to my tech >>counselor. >> >>Regards, >> >>Michael Wynn >>RV-8, Empennage >>San Ramon, California >> > > Inspect the rib carefully in comparison with the other outboard rib. Use > calipers if needed to measure flange width & hole position. Does > everything match if they are placed back to back? Look at the tooling > holes in the web of the rib. Any evidence of them being deformed? > > I had a problem with holes in several main ribs in the wing not lining > up with the wing & discovered that they had not been seated properly on > the tooling pins before the flanges were pressed. The flanges were > *slightly* different widths & the tooling holes were elongated slightly > where the tooling pins tried to punch their own holes. Of course, when I > called Van's, this had never happened before & probably wasn't happening > to me either. (The new rib they shipped didn't have the distorted > tooling holes & all the prepunched holes lined up perfectly with spar & > skins.) > > Charlie > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2005
From: mlwynn(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: E-703/Elevator skin mis-match
I had a couple of emails with the Van's folks. they agree that the issue is a mis-bend elevator skin. They cheerfully offered to send a new one. Always good support, in my experience. Thanks for everyone's input on this. Regards, Michael Wynn RV-8 Empennage -----Original Message----- From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: E-703/Elevator skin mis-match MLWynn(at)aol.com wrote: > >Hi all, > >So here's a weird one: > >I was trying to put the right hand elevator structure together with the skin >prepartory to reaming the holes. When I line up all the holes with clecos, >there is a 1/4 twist to the trailing edge and really funky bulge at E-703. If I >take the clecos out of one side, everything lines up fine. It looks like the >holes on one side of E-703, the elevator outboard rib, are off by about 1/8 >or a little more along one side. > >I tried both a fluted and ready to go rib and a second non-fluted one (the >left one I hadn't worked on yet). This is really odd as everything else has >lined up perfectly. If I force the skin and rib together, then I do not have >anything resembling a straight elevator trailing edge. If I put it together >straight, the holes are not lining up. Everything else seems to fit just >perfectly including the other outboard rib and the counterweight skin. > >Suggestions? > >For those of you following my (mis)adventures with the elevator skin >stiffeners, I was able to trim them up to avoid any contact with the opposing skin. >The very slight creases are almost invisible. I think I will proceed with >assembly (if I can figure this other issue out) and show it to my tech counselor. > >Regards, > >Michael Wynn >RV-8, Empennage >San Ramon, California > Inspect the rib carefully in comparison with the other outboard rib. Use calipers if needed to measure flange width & hole position. Does everything match if they are placed back to back? Look at the tooling holes in the web of the rib. Any evidence of them being deformed? I had a problem with holes in several main ribs in the wing not lining up with the wing & discovered that they had not been seated properly on the tooling pins before the flanges were pressed. The flanges were *slightly* different widths & the tooling holes were elongated slightly where the tooling pins tried to punch their own holes. Of course, when I called Van's, this had never happened before & probably wasn't happening to me either. (The new rib they shipped didn't have the distorted tooling holes & all the prepunched holes lined up perfectly with spar & skins.) Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wernerworld" <russ(at)wernerworld.com>
Subject: Looking for ride to OSH Friday afternoon (from MSP)
Date: Jul 24, 2005
Hi, I'm trying to get my brother in law to OSH on Friday afternoon from the Minneapolis area. No problem pitching in on expenses. He won't need a ride back. If you might be able to offer up a seat, let me know by email at russ(at)wernerworld.com and I'll arrange a contact. Thanks, Russ Werner HRII Park City, UT ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2005
From: Greg Grigson <iflyhawaii2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Ellison Roars to Life!
Gang, Thanks for all the ideas and experiences on trouble-shooting my overly rich Ellison TBI. Jim Cone's method delivers a smooth running 2150 static RPM without leaning. I just back the throttle off a little from max and she runs just fine! Greg in Honolulu N number on FAA inspection next month ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2005
From: Greg Grigson <iflyhawaii2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-6 Wing Kit for Sale
Contact me off list for details and photos. Don't worry about shipping, it's free! Greg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2005
Subject: Training for Flight...
From: alan(at)reichertech.com
I'm a long way off from first flight, but have a curiosity question... I'm aware of some folks that offer transition training prior to first flight in their RV. How similar is flying a Decathlon to an RV-8? -- Alan Reichert Priv, Inst, SEL RV-8 N927AR (reserved) Prepping Horizontal Stabilizers for Assembly, New Vertical Stabilizer Parts On Order ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Rowbotham" <crowbotham(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: first flight
Date: Jul 25, 2005
Marcel, CONGRATULATIONS and WELL DONE ! I'm sure your fiancee is smiling. Chuck & Dave Rowbotham RV-8A >From: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: RV-List: first flight >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:13:05 +0100 > > > >Hi all, > >First flight today of RV7 G-XIII at Newtownards airfield, Northern Ireland. >this is the first RV constructed in Northern Ireland. build time approx 1.5 >years. New O-360A1A, sensenich prop.empty weight 1029LBS on calibrated >scales. Dedicated to my late fiancee Ellen Dalzell who passed away on May >4th 2005, afetr loosing battle with cancer > >Marcel de Ruiter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com>
Subject: Needed: Ride home from Osh on Sunday to Kansas City
Date: Jul 25, 2005
I've managed to get a ride up to Osh on Thursday so now I'm trying to find a ride home on Sunday. If anyone has an open seat coming back on Sunday, and it going south somewhere near Kansas City (any Texans?), I'd love to hitch a ride. You can catch me via email or on cellphone at 913-706-3087. Matthew Brandes, Van's RV-9A (Wiring) #90569 http://www.n523rv.com EAA Chapter 1329 President EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger Evenson" <revenson(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Source for Canopy?
Date: Jul 25, 2005
Van's gets their side-by-side canopy bubbles from an outfit in Ohio. Does anyone know of any other sources? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com>
Subject: RE: Source for Canopy?
Date: Jul 25, 2005
http://www.aircraftextras.com/ Scroll to bottom. Matthew Brandes, Van's RV-9A (Wiring) #90569 http://www.n523rv.com EAA Chapter 1329 President EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: first flight
Date: Jul 25, 2005
Thanks Charles I seriously suffer from RVgrin, we broke through the magic 200MPH this afternoon on the second flight. This is without wheelpants or leg fairings. It is recommended to fly without if you use factory new engines. Marcel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Rowbotham" <crowbotham(at)hotmail.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: first flight > > > Marcel, > > CONGRATULATIONS and WELL DONE ! > > I'm sure your fiancee is smiling. > > Chuck & Dave Rowbotham > RV-8A > >>From: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com> >>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >>To: >>Subject: RV-List: first flight >>Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:13:05 +0100 >> >> >> >>Hi all, >> >>First flight today of RV7 G-XIII at Newtownards airfield, Northern >>Ireland. >>this is the first RV constructed in Northern Ireland. build time approx >>1.5 >>years. New O-360A1A, sensenich prop.empty weight 1029LBS on calibrated >>scales. Dedicated to my late fiancee Ellen Dalzell who passed away on May >>4th 2005, afetr loosing battle with cancer >> >>Marcel de Ruiter > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CBRxxDRV(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 25, 2005
Subject: Re: Training for Flight...
In a message dated 7/25/05 9:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, alan(at)reichertech.com writes: > I'm a long way off from first flight, but have a curiosity question... > > I'm aware of some folks that offer transition training prior to first > flight in their RV. How similar is flying a Decathlon to an RV-8? > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CBRxxDRV(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 25, 2005
Subject: Re: Source for Canopy?
In a message dated 7/25/05 12:34:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, revenson(at)comcast.net writes: > Van's gets their side-by-side canopy bubbles from an outfit in Ohio. Does > anyone know of any other sources? > Todds Canopys http://toddscanopies.com/ I have used his canopy on another Experimental Aircraft and was very happy. RV-4 RV-8 QB .... Fuselage (canoe) Sal Capra Lakeland, FL My Home Page ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WFACT01(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 25, 2005
Subject: Re: Source for Canopy?
TODDS CANOPY-THEY ARE IN SPRUCE OR CALL HIM DIRECT-HE SELLS THICKER AND TINTED IF YOU WANT-TOM TOM WHELAN WFACT01(at)AOL.COM TEL-203-2665300 FAX 203 266-5140 AIRPORT-CT01-----122.725 RV-8-SP-IO-540-350+HP---55HRS S-51-MUSTANG-TURBINE F-24 FAIRCHILD ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill and Tami Britton" <william(at)gbta.net>
Subject: Re: Needed: Ride home from Osh on Sunday to Kansas City
Date: Jul 25, 2005
Matt, were driving and will be coming back through Kansas City (I think) sometime Sunday or Monday. Not really on a definite schedule so it could even be as late as sometime Tuesday. However, if you're interested I'll mention it to the guy that's driving and see if he cares. By the way, we're driving an extended cab Chevy pickup so it may not be the most comfortable, but it's a ride. Let me know if you're interested. Bill Britton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com> Subject: RV-List: Needed: Ride home from Osh on Sunday to Kansas City > > I've managed to get a ride up to Osh on Thursday so now I'm trying to find a > ride home on Sunday. If anyone has an open seat coming back on Sunday, and > it going south somewhere near Kansas City (any Texans?), I'd love to hitch a > ride. You can catch me via email or on cellphone at 913-706-3087. > > Matthew Brandes, > Van's RV-9A (Wiring) > #90569 > http://www.n523rv.com > > EAA Chapter 1329 President > EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2005
From: Mike Draper <rv8tor(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Training for Flight...
Alan: I don't have any stick time in an RV-8 but I do have a bunch in Decathalons and a little RV-6 time. There is a big difference in stick forces between a Decathalon and RVs. You really need to develop your arm strenght if you are flying Decathalons, even with spades whereas stick forces are extremely light and balanced in the RV series. A Decathalon is dirty bird and with a constant speed prop managing your airspeed isn't difficult whereas the RV is aerodynamicaly clean and speed must be managed dilligently. That's why RVs are considered to be okay for gentlemen's aerobatics, but not for competitive aerobatics. They are both honest tailwheel airplanes that are well behaved. Getting a checkout in a Decathalon would be helpful in learning how to land a tailwheel aircraft. However, I do not feel that it would adequately prepare you manage the flight characteristics of an RV-8. Mike Draper RV-8 fuse N468RV On 7/25/05, CBRxxDRV(at)aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/25/05 9:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > alan(at)reichertech.com writes: > > > > I'm a long way off from first flight, but have a curiosity question... > > > > I'm aware of some folks that offer transition training prior to first > > flight in their RV. How similar is flying a Decathlon to an RV-8? > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2005
From: rveighta <rveighta(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: OAT Probe location
Guys, when I was finishing up my RV-8A, I placed the OAT probe in the NACA air duct. Never been happy with it -temps run too hot. Now that I'm in the same building spot with my rv-8 I'm wondering where a better location might be? Maybe in the leading edge of the wing/fuselage fairing? Appreciate any ideas...... Walt Shipley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: first flight
Date: Jul 25, 2005
> I seriously suffer from RVgrin, we broke through the magic 200MPH this > afternoon on the second flight. This is without wheelpants or leg > fairings. > It is recommended to fly without if you use factory new engines. Why? It seems like one would want to run the engine as cool as possible when breaking it in. Flying without fairings will run the engine hotter. Alex Peterson RV6A N66AP 641 hours Maple Grove, MN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Date: Jul 25, 2005
Under your wing, about mid-span out or more. Away from heat sources for the most accurate reading. Mine is under my right wing. When I fly with RVs who installed the probe in their NACA vent, their readings are consistently higher than mine in the air. Hot air does escape the cowl. I've had a few encounters with icing in IMC and I want my OAT to be dead on. Imho, forget the convenient wiring...go for accuracy. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "rveighta" <rveighta(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RV-List: OAT Probe location > > Guys, when I was finishing up my RV-8A, I placed the OAT probe in the NACA air duct. Never been happy with it -temps run too hot. Now that I'm in the same building spot with my rv-8 I'm wondering where a better location might be? Maybe in the leading edge of the wing/fuselage fairing? > > Appreciate any ideas...... > > Walt Shipley > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2005
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Mine is in the NACA inlet and reads 8-10 deg C high. Worthless location. Ron Lee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: OAT Probe location
Date: Jul 25, 2005
Walt, As you know but other builders might not, the 8 & 8A have two NACA vents, one in the fuselage and one in the bottom of the right wing. It has always seemed to me that the one in the right wing would be a good place for the OAT probe, so that's the direction I have run my probe wires. Which one did you install it in in your 8A? Terry RV-8A finishing? Seattle -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rveighta Subject: RV-List: OAT Probe location Guys, when I was finishing up my RV-8A, I placed the OAT probe in the NACA air duct. Never been happy with it -temps run too hot. Now that I'm in the same building spot with my rv-8 I'm wondering where a better location might be? Maybe in the leading edge of the wing/fuselage fairing? Appreciate any ideas...... Walt Shipley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: first flight
Date: Jul 26, 2005
Hi, It is in the Van's manual. Marcel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RE: RV-List: first flight > > > >> I seriously suffer from RVgrin, we broke through the magic 200MPH this >> afternoon on the second flight. This is without wheelpants or leg >> fairings. >> It is recommended to fly without if you use factory new engines. > > Why? It seems like one would want to run the engine as cool as possible > when breaking it in. Flying without fairings will run the engine hotter. > > Alex Peterson > RV6A N66AP 641 hours > Maple Grove, MN > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: rveighta <rveighta(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: OAT Probe location
Terry, I put mine in the left NACA vent and it runs around 10 degrees too hot. Walt -----Original Message----- From: Terry Watson <terry(at)tcwatson.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: OAT Probe location Walt, As you know but other builders might not, the 8 & 8A have two NACA vents, one in the fuselage and one in the bottom of the right wing. It has always seemed to me that the one in the right wing would be a good place for the OAT probe, so that's the direction I have run my probe wires. Which one did you install it in in your 8A? Terry RV-8A finishing? Seattle -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rveighta Subject: RV-List: OAT Probe location Guys, when I was finishing up my RV-8A, I placed the OAT probe in the NACA air duct. Never been happy with it -temps run too hot. Now that I'm in the same building spot with my rv-8 I'm wondering where a better location might be? Maybe in the leading edge of the wing/fuselage fairing? Appreciate any ideas...... Walt Shipley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: OAT Probe location
Date: Jul 26, 2005
> Mine is in the NACA inlet and reads 8-10 deg C high. > Worthless location. > > Ron Lee Just as another data point, mine is also in the NACA inlet, and reads dead on in all conditions (thermistor based system). I think many of the errors people see with NACA located temperature probes have to do with the location of the reference junction (in the case of thermocouple based systems) or from heat conducting out through the wiring to the unit from underneath the panel. Even while idling in hot weather, my unit reads within 1 degree of what the ATIS reads, and has done so consistently for four years. In flight I see the same readings that others flying with me with probes in all sorts of locations see. That is a big breeze blowing by from the prop compared to leaks of hot air coming from the cowl hinges. Something other than those leaks is causing the majority of the errors, IMO. Alex Peterson RV6A N66AP 641 hours Maple Grove, MN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re:engine break- in / no fairings
Date: Jul 26, 2005
Hi Alex, It is recommended by Van and engine books/people to create drag and therefore load on the engine during break-in. All the while watching the temps of course. Dale Ensing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling2(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Date: Jul 26, 2005
I put mine in the gear leg intersection fairing between the gear leg and wing. Is pretty inconspicuous and seems to work fine. I coiled the extra cable inside the fairing which makes it easy to remove. Shemp/Jeff Dowling RV-6A, N915JD 220 hours Chicago/Louisville ----- Original Message ----- From: "rveighta" <rveighta(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RV-List: OAT Probe location > > Guys, when I was finishing up my RV-8A, I placed the OAT probe in the NACA > air duct. Never been happy with it -temps run too hot. Now that I'm in the > same building spot with my rv-8 I'm wondering where a better location > might be? Maybe in the leading edge of the wing/fuselage fairing? > > Appreciate any ideas...... > > Walt Shipley > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Injector Balancing
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>
Anyone have a reference or recommendation for a shop that does injector balancing, in this case for an IO-540 (in a Velocity, not RV or HRII). I went through the process with GAMI but they ended up at a dead end. One cylinder's injector was limit rich and another was limit lean, but the spread was still above 1.5 gph...this after checking induction, valve train lashing, spider, et al. GAMI says its 'unusual' but not unheard of, even though there is nothing specifically wrong with the engine. So, I'm looking for a shop that I can go to that will put hands-on to double check everything and come up with an injector solution. Currently, I run with 2 cylinders LOP and the other 4 ROP (per GRT EIS/EFIS). It works but it's not right. Suggestions? Chuck ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: Injector Balancing
Air Flow Performance can make the injector nozzles for you, I would think. They made some custom ones for me, I think they were about 15 bucks a piece. They have a flow bench which means they can make anything you need. http://www.airflowperformance.com/ > > >Anyone have a reference or recommendation for a shop that does injector >balancing, in this case for an IO-540 (in a Velocity, not RV or HRII). >I went through the process with GAMI but they ended up at a dead end. >One cylinder's injector was limit rich and another was limit lean, but >the spread was still above 1.5 gph...this after checking induction, >valve train lashing, spider, et al. GAMI says its 'unusual' but not >unheard of, even though there is nothing specifically wrong with the >engine. > >So, I'm looking for a shop that I can go to that will put hands-on to >double check everything and come up with an injector solution. >Currently, I run with 2 cylinders LOP and the other 4 ROP (per GRT >EIS/EFIS). It works but it's not right. Suggestions? > >Chuck > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Agree. My installation (RV-6A) suffers the same drawbacks. I did some experimentation awhile back (should be in the archives) which demonstrated that part of the temp rise was from conducted heat through the cowl (boundary-layer air picking up heat by passing over the cowl) and part was actual leakage of heated air through the piano hinge junction between upper and lower cowl halves. What REALLY peeved me was the realization that no only were my OAT's artificially high and therefore almost worthless, but that the vent air I was relying on for cockpit cooling was being bumped up about 8 degrees F over what should be available from adiabatic cooling at altitude. Pilot and passenger comfort was suffering (and still does). There is no easy way to plumb fresh air to an RV cockpit that avoids both pre-heating and CO risk... there are ways, but no easy ones that I can see. At least the wiring of an OAT probe in a suitable location is not as much of a hassle as routing long len gths of SCAT from a wing. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: OAT Probe location Mine is in the NACA inlet and reads 8-10 deg C high. Worthless location. Ron Lee ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
My experimentation included reading OAT from an independent, remote thermometer mounted outside under the wing for one flight, and in the outlet for cabin cooling air for another flight. It's not just heat seeping into the thermistor probe in the NACA inlet (which has no "reference junction," by the way, since it is not a thermocouple), as mine is amply insulated from the rear with expandable urethane foam insulation... the air coming out of the freash air vent is actually a measured 8 degrees F hotter than ambient. It's a sad but true data point. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Alex Peterson <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RE: RV-List: OAT Probe location > Mine is in the NACA inlet and reads 8-10 deg C high. > Worthless location. > > Ron Lee Just as another data point, mine is also in the NACA inlet, and reads dead on in all conditions (thermistor based system). I think many of the errors people see with NACA located temperature probes have to do with the location of the reference junction (in the case of thermocouple based systems) or from heat conducting out through the wiring to the unit from underneath the panel. Even while idling in hot weather, my unit reads within 1 degree of what the ATIS reads, and has done so consistently for four years. In flight I see the same readings that others flying with me with probes in all sorts of locations see. That is a big breeze blowing by from the prop compared to leaks of hot air coming from the cowl hinges. Something other than those leaks is causing the majority of the errors, IMO. Alex Peterson RV6A N66AP 641 hours Maple Grove, MN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Knicholas2(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 26, 2005
Subject: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
Ok, I am having a brain cramp. I know that for IFR, the pitot-static system and transponder have to be calibrated and certified every 24 months. Does this have to be done for strictly VFR flying? Kim Nicholas RV9A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>
Nope. For VFR, you just need an engine and two wings. Need a radio to go into Class C and D and a radio/transponder into Class B. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Knicholas2(at)aol.com Subject: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR Ok, I am having a brain cramp. I know that for IFR, the pitot-static system and transponder have to be calibrated and certified every 24 months. Does this have to be done for strictly VFR flying? Kim Nicholas RV9A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hull, Don" <Donald.C.Hull(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: first flight
Date: Jul 26, 2005
I think there may be a misunderstanding here...he was talking about wheel pants and leg fairings, not the cowling. The engine probably would run hot without the cowling...I know on the ground it would. But flying without wheel fairings shouldn't affect the engine temperatures significantly. Don Hull -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alex Peterson Subject: RE: RV-List: first flight --> > I seriously suffer from RVgrin, we broke through the magic 200MPH this > afternoon on the second flight. This is without wheelpants or leg > fairings. It is recommended to fly without if you use factory new > engines. Why? It seems like one would want to run the engine as cool as possible when breaking it in. Flying without fairings will run the engine hotter. Alex Peterson RV6A N66AP 641 hours Maple Grove, MN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
I believe if you have a transponder in the plane, it's supposed to be "on" whenever in flight,and if it's being used, the calibration is also a requirement (the static/encoder part, anyway). Having the transponder is optional, but using it if you have it isn't. Others will no doubt correct that idea if it's wrong. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Jensen <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR Nope. For VFR, you just need an engine and two wings. Need a radio to go into Class C and D and a radio/transponder into Class B. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Knicholas2(at)aol.com Subject: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR Ok, I am having a brain cramp. I know that for IFR, the pitot-static system and transponder have to be calibrated and certified every 24 months. Does this have to be done for strictly VFR flying? Kim Nicholas RV9A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
No time to look it up but I suspect that if you USE a transponder it needs to be checked. Ron Lee ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote: >... the air coming out of the freash air vent is actually a measured 8 degrees F hotter than ambient. > Really?! Out of curiosity, what air speed was that measurement taken at? -- Chris W ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
Date: Jul 26, 2005
Kim, If you are asking about a Mode C transponder, yes the altitude reporting must be checked/calibrated every two years by a certified technician? If not mode C, I think the effective output of the transponder must still be checked for position reporting. Dale Ensing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: first flight
Hull, Don wrote: > > I think there may be a misunderstanding here...he was talking about wheel > pants and leg fairings, not the cowling. The engine probably would run hot > without the cowling...I know on the ground it would. But flying without > wheel fairings shouldn't affect the engine temperatures significantly. > Don Hull As I understand the deal, the reason for flying without wheelpants and fairings when testing a new RV with a new engine is so the engine can be broken in properly. Most engine-types agree that the best way to seat the piston rings is with the use of high rpm under light load. The point is to get rpm up while keeping CHT's down. This allows the rings to "scuff-in" without heat-stressing the cylinders. This is also the reason that some engine manuals suggest periods of high rpm interspersed with lower rpm to prevent the cylinders from overheating. However, if this routine if followed with a brand new RV with all fairings installed, the pilot will quickly find himself operating the plane way up in the speed range. This is not good for the first few flights! Airspeed should be gradually increased during subsequent flights as the airframe is proven to have no problems with high airspeed. So the requirements of a new engine and a new airframe have opposing goals. The best way to run the engine at high rpm and keep airspeed down is to fly without wheelpants and fairings. By the way, an RV that can hit 200mph in level flight without wheelpants and fairings is a very impressive RV!!!! ;-) Sam Buchanan ======================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alex Peterson > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: first flight > > > --> > > >>I seriously suffer from RVgrin, we broke through the magic 200MPH this >>afternoon on the second flight. This is without wheelpants or leg >>fairings. It is recommended to fly without if you use factory new >>engines. > > > Why? It seems like one would want to run the engine as cool as possible > when breaking it in. Flying without fairings will run the engine hotter. > > Alex Peterson > RV6A N66AP 641 hours > Maple Grove, MN > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Bundy" <ebundy(at)speedyquick.net>
Subject: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
Date: Jul 27, 2005
This is one of the most misunderstood areas that I run into when giving a BFR. You *absolutely* need a transponder w/mode C to operate in Class C airspace. Also to operate above Class B or C within the lateral boundaries. Also required within 30nm of a Class B airport even outside the B airspace (the "veil"). Also necessary above 10,000' MSL everywhere. (unless at or below 2500 agl) There are a lot of places you can't go without a mode C transponder, but you don't HAVE to have one. If you do have one, you don't have to use it if not in the above mentioned airspace. However, if you do have one, and you do use it, it has to have been checked within the preceding 2 years. There is no pitot-static test requirement for VFR flight. Ed Bundy Nope. For VFR, you just need an engine and two wings. Need a radio to go into Class C and D and a radio/transponder into Class B. Ok, I am having a brain cramp. I know that for IFR, the pitot-static system and transponder have to be calibrated and certified every 24 months. Does this have to be done for strictly VFR flying? -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BELTEDAIR(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 26, 2005
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
The temp rise may well be from air exiting the cowl openings and flowing back along the fuselage to your air pickup. We relocated ours on top of the fuselage aft of the antenna, aft of the slider limit. The inlets are oversized for climb cooling. Jess Belted Air ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: first flight
linn walters wrote: > > Much as I hate to disagree with Sam, I'd like to make some points. > First, the best way to seat the rings is to get max pressure in the > cylinder. The rings aren't flat, and the high pressure forces the ring > to 'flatten' a little and thus seal better. That's as I understand it. > High RPMs aren't necessarily a requirement as much as a by-product of > the high pressures in the cylinder (which equates to more power) and may > be controlled by cranking in the pitch on a CS prop. On a FP prop, the > only thing you can do to keep the engine somewhat under redline > (depending on the pitch, of course) is to increase drag, which is (I'm > guessing here) why removal of the pants and gear fairings are > suggested. There is a caveat here. One of the byproducts of max power > is heat, and you should keep a close eye on the CHTs to prevent cooking > the cylinders. This means good baffling and enough airflow to keep max > CHTs in the 400 range. Oil temps are important to monitor also and > should be in the 170 to 220 (F) range. Linn, I think we are saying the same thing. Run the engine hard, keep the cylinders from getting too hot, and fly without fairings to keep airspeed in a reasonable range. Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Date: Jul 26, 2005
On 26 Jul 2005, at 15:27, Chris W wrote: > <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm(at)cox.net> > > sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote: > > >> ... the air coming out of the freash air vent is actually a >> measured 8 degrees F hotter than ambient. >> >> > Really?! Out of curiosity, what air speed was that measurement > taken at? > I'd also be interested to know how one measures the ambient temperature so one can compare the output of the temp sensor to ambient. At 170 kt TAS, the temperature increase due to ram rise would be about 7 deg F. I.e, if you took the air coming in the NACA scoop, and let it slow down so it is at rest with respect to the aircraft, you would expect its temperature to be about 7 deg F hotter than the ambient temperature. Just be glad you aren't racing for the Unlimited Gold at Reno. At the speeds those guys are running, the ram rise would be over 45 deg F, and the ambient temperature is already pretty hot. The ram rise in deg C is equal to the square of the TAS in kt divided by 7592. The ram rise in deg F is equal to the square of the TAS in mph divided by 5587. The amount of the ram rise sensed by the temperature sensor will vary, depending on the probe's recovery factor. Good quality probes supposedly have recovery factors of between 0.95 and 1, but some probes may have lower recovery factors. The temperature measured by the probe would be about: IAT=OAT+K*(TAS 2/7592) where IAT is the indicated air temperature reported by the probe, in deg C OAT is the actual ambient air temperature, in deg C, K is the probe's recovery factor, and TAS is the true airspeed in kt You may be more familiar with the classical equation that relates ram rise to Mach. total air temperature/ambient air temperature = (1 + 0.2 * M 2), with both temperatures expressed in either degrees Kelvin, or degrees Rankin). Or, OAT = (IAT + 273.15) / (1 + 0.2*K*M 2) - 273.15 where where IAT is the indicated air temperature reported by the probe, in deg C, OAT is the actual ambient air temperature, in deg C, K is the probe's recovery factor, and M is the Mach number. The first time I saw the equation with TAS, I thought it must be an approximation, as we are always told that ram rise is a function of Mach. But, one day when I was bored, I dissected the equations and found that the equation with TAS was mathematically equivalent to the one with Mach. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "" <rvpilot(at)access4less.net>
Subject:
Date: Jul 26, 2005
Linn is correct here. It's not necessarily high RPM that seats the rings, it"s high manifold pressure. The higher MP forces the rings tighter against the cylinder walls and wears them in quicker. The object is to have the rings form their best seal before a layer of varnish forms on the Cyl. walls, at which point, further ring seating effectively ceases. For this reason, you should not go to high altitudes until break in is complete. With steel or Cerminil Cyls., break in is usually complete within 1 Hr. as evidenced by a stabilized oil consumption. Bill Davis rvpilot(at)access4less.net Much as I hate to disagree with Sam, I'd like to make some points. First, the best way to seat the rings is to get max pressure in the cylinder. The rings aren't flat, and the high pressure forces the ring to 'flatten' a little and thus seal better. That's as I understand it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: OAT Probe location "as it relates to cabin cooling"
Date: Jul 26, 2005
Perhaps an obvious question, but if the OAT is running 8-10 degrees hot, does that infer that the air coming through the NACA duct for cabin cooling is also 8 degrees hotter than ambient. If so, other than sheer volume it would appear that a cold air intake in the front intake would be better for passenger cooling. 8-10 degrees seems like a lot of difference in an airplane without AC. Is it worth the trouble to find a "cooler" intake area for cabin air? I fly mostly in the South and it seems like cooling not heat is the issue most of the time in this area. Bill S 7a Ark -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: OAT Probe location Mine is in the NACA inlet and reads 8-10 deg C high. Worthless location. Ron Lee ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: first flight
Date: Jul 26, 2005
> > I think there may be a misunderstanding here...he was talking about wheel > pants and leg fairings, not the cowling. The engine probably would run > hot > without the cowling...I know on the ground it would. But flying without > wheel fairings shouldn't affect the engine temperatures significantly. > Don Hull Flying without the wheel and gear fairings would be like flying a shallow climb, and the engine will definitely run hotter. How much is hard to tell, but it will be more than one would think. For the same power output (and hence heat load, mixture being the same), the airspeed will be less, and therefore less cooling air with no fairings. No way around it. Those who have only flown overcooled training aircraft will have a hard time believing the sensitivity of airspeed vs cooling in RV's. The -4's seem to have quite a bit more cooling reserve than the other RV's, due in part to their higher speeds for the same power. Alex Peterson RV6A N66AP 641 hours Maple Grove, MN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: fresh engines and new airplanes
rvpilot(at)access4less.net wrote: > > Linn is correct here. It's not necessarily high RPM that seats the rings, it"s > high manifold pressure. The higher MP forces the rings tighter against the cylinder walls > and wears them in quicker. The object is to have the rings form their best seal before a > layer of varnish forms on the Cyl. walls, at which point, further ring seating effectively ceases. > For this reason, you should not go to high altitudes until break in is complete. With > steel or Cerminil Cyls., break in is usually complete within 1 Hr. as evidenced by a > stabilized oil consumption. Granted. But those of us with fixed-pitch props have to resort to higher rpm in order to pull more manifold pressure. I think we are getting hung up on semantics. The point I was making is the engine should not be flown gingerly, it needs to develop a lot of power (rpm or MP, whatever your particular engine/prop requires) in order to rapidly and reliably seat the rings. You guys with the CS props can load the engine at lower rpm, us folks with the cheap props have to wind up our engines (2400-2600 rpm) to get high MP unless we are flying at sea level. That's why a lot of us fly our new planes with new engines without the pants and fairings so breaking in the cylinders won't result in higher than desired airspeed. Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2005
From: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fresh engines and new airplanes
Sam, You are correct... Thanks for your input! Sam Buchanan wrote: rvpilot(at)access4less.net wrote: > > Linn is correct here. It's not necessarily high RPM that seats the rings, it"s > high manifold pressure. The higher MP forces the rings tighter against the cylinder walls > and wears them in quicker. The object is to have the rings form their best seal before a > layer of varnish forms on the Cyl. walls, at which point, further ring seating effectively ceases. > For this reason, you should not go to high altitudes until break in is complete. With > steel or Cerminil Cyls., break in is usually complete within 1 Hr. as evidenced by a > stabilized oil consumption. Granted. But those of us with fixed-pitch props have to resort to higher rpm in order to pull more manifold pressure. I think we are getting hung up on semantics. The point I was making is the engine should not be flown gingerly, it needs to develop a lot of power (rpm or MP, whatever your particular engine/prop requires) in order to rapidly and reliably seat the rings. You guys with the CS props can load the engine at lower rpm, us folks with the cheap props have to wind up our engines (2400-2600 rpm) to get high MP unless we are flying at sea level. That's why a lot of us fly our new planes with new engines without the pants and fairings so breaking in the cylinders won't result in higher than desired airspeed. Sam Buchanan Darrell Reiley Round Rock, Texas RV 7A "Reiley Rocket" N622DR (reserved) --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re:
Date: Jul 27, 2005
Hi, There's one problem with that theory, MP is a tad difficult to influence with a carb engine, other than flying as low as permitted or possible. Marcel ----- Original Message ----- From: <rvpilot(at)access4less.net> Subject: RV-List: > > Linn is correct here. It's not necessarily high RPM that seats the rings, > it"s > high manifold pressure. The higher MP forces the rings tighter against the > cylinder walls > and wears them in quicker. The object is to have the rings form their best > seal before a > layer of varnish forms on the Cyl. walls, at which point, further ring > seating effectively ceases. > For this reason, you should not go to high altitudes until break in is > complete. With > steel or Cerminil Cyls., break in is usually complete within 1 Hr. as > evidenced by a > stabilized oil consumption. > > Bill Davis > > > rvpilot(at)access4less.net > > Much as I hate to disagree with Sam, I'd like to make some points. > First, the best way to seat the rings is to get max pressure in the > cylinder. The rings aren't flat, and the high pressure forces the ring > to 'flatten' a little and thus seal better. That's as I understand it. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: first flight
Date: Jul 27, 2005
Hi, As posted before, refer to your manual re wheel pants and leg fairings. Oil temp at 180MPH is around 160/170F, all other T's/P's in the green. Marcel G-XIII/RV7/ N. Ireland ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> Subject: RE: RV-List: first flight > > >> >> I think there may be a misunderstanding here...he was talking about wheel >> pants and leg fairings, not the cowling. The engine probably would run >> hot >> without the cowling...I know on the ground it would. But flying without >> wheel fairings shouldn't affect the engine temperatures significantly. >> Don Hull > > Flying without the wheel and gear fairings would be like flying a shallow > climb, and the engine will definitely run hotter. How much is hard to > tell, > but it will be more than one would think. For the same power output (and > hence heat load, mixture being the same), the airspeed will be less, and > therefore less cooling air with no fairings. No way around it. Those who > have only flown overcooled training aircraft will have a hard time > believing > the sensitivity of airspeed vs cooling in RV's. The -4's seem to have > quite > a bit more cooling reserve than the other RV's, due in part to their > higher > speeds for the same power. > > Alex Peterson > RV6A N66AP 641 hours > Maple Grove, MN > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: fresh engines and new airplanes
Date: Jul 27, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
Having been reading up on this with lyco articles and so forth, it is the manifold pressures not the rpm that seats the rings. It was not semantics you were discussing, rather RPM vs MP. With FP your stuck with high rpm to get the MP. What you do not want is a c/s prop at 2700rpm pulling 18". Lyco says run 75% power. Engine shops say Max MP, rpm as high as you can stand it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan Subject: RV-List: fresh engines and new airplanes rvpilot(at)access4less.net wrote: > > Linn is correct here. It's not necessarily high RPM that seats the rings, it"s > high manifold pressure. The higher MP forces the rings tighter against the cylinder walls > and wears them in quicker. The object is to have the rings form their best seal before a > layer of varnish forms on the Cyl. walls, at which point, further ring seating effectively ceases. > For this reason, you should not go to high altitudes until break in is complete. With > steel or Cerminil Cyls., break in is usually complete within 1 Hr. as evidenced by a > stabilized oil consumption. Granted. But those of us with fixed-pitch props have to resort to higher rpm in order to pull more manifold pressure. I think we are getting hung up on semantics. The point I was making is the engine should not be flown gingerly, it needs to develop a lot of power (rpm or MP, whatever your particular engine/prop requires) in order to rapidly and reliably seat the rings. You guys with the CS props can load the engine at lower rpm, us folks with the cheap props have to wind up our engines (2400-2600 rpm) to get high MP unless we are flying at sea level. That's why a lot of us fly our new planes with new engines without the pants and fairings so breaking in the cylinders won't result in higher than desired airspeed. Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Williams" <kevinsky18(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: fresh engines and new airplanes
Date: Jul 27, 2005
What baffles me is, if its so darn important to run the engine just right to get just the right break in characteristics . . . why isnt this done at the factory / re-build shop? It seems to me a really simple thing to do. Have a tension system that bolts on to where the prop would go and place the engine in a simple wind tunnel. I believe a 150MPH wind would be more than enough to keep the engine cool. Less speed if the air was air-conditioned. By breaking in the engine in a controlled environment you can ensure the engine and all cylinders remain at a constant temperature and MP. Kevin Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, Canada From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net> Subject: RE: RV-List: fresh engines and new airplanes Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:07:27 -0400 Having been reading up on this with lyco articles and so forth, it is the manifold pressures not the rpm that seats the rings. It was not semantics you were discussing, rather RPM vs MP. With FP your stuck with high rpm to get the MP. What you do not want is a c/s prop at 2700rpm pulling 18". Lyco says run 75% power. Engine shops say Max MP, rpm as high as you can stand it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan Subject: RV-List: fresh engines and new airplanes rvpilot(at)access4less.net wrote: > > Linn is correct here. It's not necessarily high RPM that seats the rings, it"s > high manifold pressure. The higher MP forces the rings tighter against the cylinder walls > and wears them in quicker. The object is to have the rings form their best seal before a > layer of varnish forms on the Cyl. walls, at which point, further ring seating effectively ceases. > For this reason, you should not go to high altitudes until break in is complete. With > steel or Cerminil Cyls., break in is usually complete within 1 Hr. as evidenced by a > stabilized oil consumption. Granted. But those of us with fixed-pitch props have to resort to higher rpm in order to pull more manifold pressure. I think we are getting hung up on semantics. The point I was making is the engine should not be flown gingerly, it needs to develop a lot of power (rpm or MP, whatever your particular engine/prop requires) in order to rapidly and reliably seat the rings. You guys with the CS props can load the engine at lower rpm, us folks with the cheap props have to wind up our engines (2400-2600 rpm) to get high MP unless we are flying at sea level. That's why a lot of us fly our new planes with new engines without the pants and fairings so breaking in the cylinders won't result in higher than desired airspeed. Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: fresh engines and new airplanes
Date: Jul 27, 2005
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net>
It can be and is in many cases. My new Lyco in my 6 came with 3 test stand hours from the factory. My 540 that was rebuilt certified, had an option from the shop to test run it for $1k. I choose to break in the 540 in the air and stick the money in my pocket... ahhh. Somewhere else in the plane:) Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Williams Subject: RE: RV-List: fresh engines and new airplanes What baffles me is, if its so darn important to run the engine just right to get just the right break in characteristics . . . why isnt this done at the factory / re-build shop? It seems to me a really simple thing to do. Have a tension system that bolts on to where the prop would go and place the engine in a simple wind tunnel. I believe a 150MPH wind would be more than enough to keep the engine cool. Less speed if the air was air-conditioned. By breaking in the engine in a controlled environment you can ensure the engine and all cylinders remain at a constant temperature and MP. Kevin Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, Canada From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net> Subject: RE: RV-List: fresh engines and new airplanes Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:07:27 -0400 Having been reading up on this with lyco articles and so forth, it is the manifold pressures not the rpm that seats the rings. It was not semantics you were discussing, rather RPM vs MP. With FP your stuck with high rpm to get the MP. What you do not want is a c/s prop at 2700rpm pulling 18". Lyco says run 75% power. Engine shops say Max MP, rpm as high as you can stand it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan Subject: RV-List: fresh engines and new airplanes rvpilot(at)access4less.net wrote: > > Linn is correct here. It's not necessarily high RPM that seats the rings, it"s > high manifold pressure. The higher MP forces the rings tighter against the cylinder walls > and wears them in quicker. The object is to have the rings form their best seal before a > layer of varnish forms on the Cyl. walls, at which point, further ring seating effectively ceases. > For this reason, you should not go to high altitudes until break in is complete. With > steel or Cerminil Cyls., break in is usually complete within 1 Hr. as evidenced by a > stabilized oil consumption. Granted. But those of us with fixed-pitch props have to resort to higher rpm in order to pull more manifold pressure. I think we are getting hung up on semantics. The point I was making is the engine should not be flown gingerly, it needs to develop a lot of power (rpm or MP, whatever your particular engine/prop requires) in order to rapidly and reliably seat the rings. You guys with the CS props can load the engine at lower rpm, us folks with the cheap props have to wind up our engines (2400-2600 rpm) to get high MP unless we are flying at sea level. That's why a lot of us fly our new planes with new engines without the pants and fairings so breaking in the cylinders won't result in higher than desired airspeed. Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WFACT01(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 27, 2005
Subject: Re: fresh engines and new airplanes
KEVIN-- MOST GOOD ENGINE SHOPS DO--- THE TEST CELLS COST A LOT OF MONEY-TOM TOM WHELAN WFACT01(at)AOL.COM TEL-203-2665300 FAX 203 266-5140 AIRPORT-CT01-----122.725 RV-8-SP-IO-540-350+HP---55HRS S-51-MUSTANG-TURBINE F-24 FAIRCHILD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2005
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: fresh engines and new airplanes
> > It seems to me a really simple thing to do. Have a tension system that > bolts on to where the prop would go and place the engine in a simple wind > tunnel. I believe a 150MPH wind would be more than enough to keep the engine > cool. Less speed if the air was air-conditioned. Ever priced wind tunnels? What you say is quite correct, and is sometimes done, except for the "simple" part. The engine test cells are quite expensive, and you pay a lot of money to have your engine run in this way. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC -6 ultra-slow-build ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2005
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Measurements probably taken at slow cruise (it's been over a year since I did this), so maybe 130 mph? Two flights were made comparing readings on same thermometer and probe, once with probe in the panel air duct opening, and then immediate repeat flight with probe taped to underside of right wing about two feet from root, flown at same altitude. Difference noted was the 8 degrees F already referenced. I'm quoting from memory here, so a check in the archives for accuracy may be in order. Point is, yes, we're reading high for TAS and DALT claculations, AND, we're giving up cockpit cooling efficiency as well, with the probe in the NACA duct and by locating the NACA ducts where "they" say to put them. Bad deal all around. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: OAT Probe location sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote: >... the air coming out of the freash air vent is actually a measured 8 degrees F hotter than ambient. > Really?! Out of curiosity, what air speed was that measurement taken at? -- Chris W ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2005
From: Charlie Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com>
Subject: First flight
IMHO, Van's recommendation for a first flight without wheel pants and gear leg fairings has more to do with trim and flight control alignment than it has to do with engine break in or cooling. Wheel pants and gear leg fairings are intended to reduce drag. But if they are not aligned perfectly with the relative air flow, they will cause side loads and directional control and actually increase drag. If one initially flies with wheel pants and fairings, how can you tell whether a roll or yaw is caused by vertical tail alignment, poorly rigged ailerons, etc., or misaligned wheel pants and/or fairings? In fact, misaligned pants and/or fairings could be offsetting misaligned ailerons or rudder. By flying initially without pants and fairings, you eliminate them as factors in getting the airplane to fly straight and level. Once satisfied that your bird is rigged correctly and flying perfectly straight, then mount the wheel pants and retest. If it now rolls or flys a bit sideways, you know beyond a shadow of doubt that the problem is the the wheel pants. Once hands off conditions are again met with the pants installed, install the fairings and retest. Go through the same process again with the intersection fairings. Using this methodology, you can be assured that you have a straight flying airplane with minimum drag from any source. It takes a bit more time and effort, but that's what the 25 and 40 hour test periods are for. IMHO. Charlie RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2005
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
I've done that experiment... taped over all the gaps in the cowl where air could escape and took measurements. About half the heating is from surface convection over the hot cowl, and half is leakage of hot air from inside the cowl into the slipstream and then to the NACA inlet. Seems like taping the seams and insulating the sides of the cowl are both required to make this location work well. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: BELTEDAIR(at)aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: OAT Probe location The temp rise may well be from air exiting the cowl openings and flowing back along the fuselage to your air pickup. We relocated ours on top of the fuselage aft of the antenna, aft of the slider limit. The inlets are oversized for climb cooling. Jess Belted Air ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Date: Jul 27, 2005
On this issue I agree with Dan. My first RV-8 I installed the probe int he NACA scope. It read hot. On the second plane I installed it under the wing gap fairing. It read hot. Not as bad as the NACA scope location but still high. The probe needs to be somewhere outboard on the wing. I have seen several that were mounted on one of the access panels under the wings, or very close to an access panel so it was easy to install. Mike Robertson >From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: OAT Probe location >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:06:09 -0700 > > >Under your wing, about mid-span out or more. Away from heat sources for >the >most accurate reading. > >Mine is under my right wing. When I fly with RVs who installed the probe >in >their NACA vent, their readings are consistently higher than mine in the >air. Hot air does escape the cowl. > >I've had a few encounters with icing in IMC and I want my OAT to be dead >on. >Imho, forget the convenient wiring...go for accuracy. > >)_( Dan >RV-7 N714D >http://www.rvproject.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "rveighta" <rveighta(at)earthlink.net> >To: >Subject: RV-List: OAT Probe location > > > > > > Guys, when I was finishing up my RV-8A, I placed the OAT probe in the >NACA >air duct. Never been happy with it -temps run too hot. Now that I'm in the >same building spot with my rv-8 I'm wondering where a better location might >be? Maybe in the leading edge of the wing/fuselage fairing? > > > > Appreciate any ideas...... > > > > Walt Shipley > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2005
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Test Pilot Kevin: Am I correct in assuming this only applies to applications where the the temp probe is measuring oncoming air that is slowed to zero relative velocity and thereby ram-compresssed (to the equivalent of the pitot pressure) rather than to probes in freely moving slipstream air that isn't being slowed much at all (except for that pesky boundary layer with near-zero velocity at the surface...)? Was that clear?? Just looking for insight and understanding here :-) -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> Subject: Re: RV-List: OAT Probe location On 26 Jul 2005, at 15:27, Chris W wrote: > <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm(at)cox.net> > > sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote: > > >> ... the air coming out of the freash air vent is actually a >> measured 8 degrees F hotter than ambient. >> >> > Really?! Out of curiosity, what air speed was that measurement > taken at? > I'd also be interested to know how one measures the ambient temperature so one can compare the output of the temp sensor to ambient. At 170 kt TAS, the temperature increase due to ram rise would be about 7 deg F. I.e, if you took the air coming in the NACA scoop, and let it slow down so it is at rest with respect to the aircraft, you would expect its temperature to be about 7 deg F hotter than the ambient temperature. Just be glad you aren't racing for the Unlimited Gold at Reno. At the speeds those guys are running, the ram rise would be over 45 deg F, and the ambient temperature is already pretty hot. The ram rise in deg C is equal to the square of the TAS in kt divided by 7592. The ram rise in deg F is equal to the square of the TAS in mph divided by 5587. The amount of the ram rise sensed by the temperature sensor will vary, depending on the probe's recovery factor. Good quality probes supposedly have recovery factors of between 0.95 and 1, but some probes may have lower recovery factors. The temperature measured by the probe would be about: IAT=OAT+K*(TAS 2/7592) where IAT is the indicated air temperature reported by the probe, in deg C OAT is the actual ambient air temperature, in deg C, K is the probe's recovery factor, and TAS is the true airspeed in kt You may be more familiar with the classical equation that relates ram rise to Mach. total air temperature/ambient air temperature = (1 + 0.2 * M 2), with both temperatures expressed in either degrees Kelvin, or degrees Rankin). Or, OAT = (IAT + 273.15) / (1 + 0.2*K*M 2) - 273.15 where where IAT is the indicated air temperature reported by the probe, in deg C, OAT is the actual ambient air temperature, in deg C, K is the probe's recovery factor, and M is the Mach number. The first time I saw the equation with TAS, I thought it must be an approximation, as we are always told that ram rise is a function of Mach. But, one day when I was bored, I dissected the equations and found that the equation with TAS was mathematically equivalent to the one with Mach. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
Date: Jul 27, 2005
NO. Once it is done it does not have to be re-done unless you change instruments or break the lines. Mike Robertson >From: Knicholas2(at)aol.com >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:36:02 EDT > > >Ok, I am having a brain cramp. I know that for IFR, the pitot-static >system and transponder have to be calibrated and certified every 24 >months. > >Does this have to be done for strictly VFR flying? > >Kim Nicholas >RV9A > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
Date: Jul 27, 2005
YEP. The regs are 91.411 and 91.413. if it is installed it shall be used and inspected in accordance with the regs. For transponder usage rules take a look at 91.215. Mike Robertson >From: Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:12:18 -0600 > > >No time to look it up but I suspect that if you USE a transponder >it needs to be checked. > >Ron Lee > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: First flight
Date: Jul 27, 2005
Hi Charlie, I DOES really say so in the manual. Read through the last few chapters. It only recommends when a new engine is used. RTFM as they say :-) Marcel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie Brame" <chasb(at)satx.rr.com> Subject: RV-List: First flight > > IMHO, Van's recommendation for a first flight without wheel pants and > gear leg fairings has more to do with trim and flight control alignment > than it has to do with engine break in or cooling. > > Wheel pants and gear leg fairings are intended to reduce drag. But if > they are not aligned perfectly with the relative air flow, they will > cause side loads and directional control and actually increase drag. If > one initially flies with wheel pants and fairings, how can you tell > whether a roll or yaw is caused by vertical tail alignment, poorly > rigged ailerons, etc., or misaligned wheel pants and/or fairings? In > fact, misaligned pants and/or fairings could be offsetting misaligned > ailerons or rudder. > > By flying initially without pants and fairings, you eliminate them as > factors in getting the airplane to fly straight and level. Once > satisfied that your bird is rigged correctly and flying perfectly > straight, then mount the wheel pants and retest. If it now rolls or flys > a bit sideways, you know beyond a shadow of doubt that the problem is > the the wheel pants. Once hands off conditions are again met with the > pants installed, install the fairings and retest. Go through the same > process again with the intersection fairings. > > Using this methodology, you can be assured that you have a straight > flying airplane with minimum drag from any source. It takes a bit more > time and effort, but that's what the 25 and 40 hour test periods are > for. IMHO. > > Charlie > RV-6A N11CB > San Antonio > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Morrow" <DanFM01(at)butter.toast.net>
Subject: Re: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
Date: Jul 27, 2005
FAR 91.215(c) says that if you have a transponder that works and has been calibrated and certified within the last two years, then the transponder must be on when within controlled airspace. FAR 91.215 lays all this out in gory detail. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Bundy" <ebundy(at)speedyquick.net> Subject: RE: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR > > This is one of the most misunderstood areas that I run into when giving a > BFR. > > You *absolutely* need a transponder w/mode C to operate in Class C > airspace. > Also to operate above Class B or C within the lateral boundaries. Also > required within 30nm of a Class B airport even outside the B airspace (the > "veil"). Also necessary above 10,000' MSL everywhere. (unless at or below > 2500 agl) > > There are a lot of places you can't go without a mode C transponder, but > you > don't HAVE to have one. If you do have one, you don't have to use it if > not > in the above mentioned airspace. However, if you do have one, and you do > use it, it has to have been checked within the preceding 2 years. > > There is no pitot-static test requirement for VFR flight. > > Ed Bundy > > > Nope. For VFR, you just need an engine and two wings. Need a radio to > go into Class C and D and a radio/transponder into Class B. > > > Ok, I am having a brain cramp. I know that for IFR, the pitot-static > system and transponder have to be calibrated and certified every 24 > months. > > Does this have to be done for strictly VFR flying? > > > -- > > > -- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Morrow" <DanFM01(at)butter.toast.net>
Subject: Re: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
Date: Jul 27, 2005
As I read FAR 91.413(a), the transponder check must be done every 24 months or it cannot be used. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR > > NO. Once it is done it does not have to be re-done unless you change > instruments or break the lines. > > Mike Robertson > >>From: Knicholas2(at)aol.com >>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >>Subject: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:36:02 EDT >> >> >>Ok, I am having a brain cramp. I know that for IFR, the pitot-static >>system and transponder have to be calibrated and certified every 24 >>months. >> >>Does this have to be done for strictly VFR flying? >> >>Kim Nicholas >>RV9A >> >> > > > -- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR
Date: Jul 27, 2005
Transponder...yes. A pitot-static check...no Mike Robertson >From: "Dan Morrow" <DanFM01(at)butter.toast.net> >Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR >Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:31:58 -0700 > > >As I read FAR 91.413(a), the transponder check must be done every 24 >months >or it cannot be used. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com> >To: >Subject: RE: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR > > > > > > NO. Once it is done it does not have to be re-done unless you change > > instruments or break the lines. > > > > Mike Robertson > > > >>From: Knicholas2(at)aol.com > >>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > >>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > >>Subject: RV-List: Need FAR update - pitot-static, transponder in VFR > >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:36:02 EDT > >> > >> > >>Ok, I am having a brain cramp. I know that for IFR, the pitot-static > >>system and transponder have to be calibrated and certified every 24 > >>months. > >> > >>Does this have to be done for strictly VFR flying? > >> > >>Kim Nicholas > >>RV9A > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Date: Jul 27, 2005
The air that is touching the probe will be at zero velocity with respect to the probe, so it will be warmer than the ambient temperature. The probe design, the airflow patterns around the probe, and the way that the surround material conducts heat to or away from the probe will determine what the probe recovery factor is. In theory, you could figure out approximately what the probe recovery factor is by stabilizing at the slowest possible speed, waiting for the indicated OAT to stabilize. Then go at the maximum level flight speed at the same altitude, and see what the indicated OAT is. Do this a few times and then see what recovery factor is needed to make sense of the numbers. Kevin On 27 Jul 2005, at 11:41, sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote: > > Test Pilot Kevin: > > Am I correct in assuming this only applies to applications where > the the temp probe is measuring oncoming air that is slowed to zero > relative velocity and thereby ram-compresssed (to the equivalent of > the pitot pressure) rather than to probes in freely moving > slipstream air that isn't being slowed much at all (except for that > pesky boundary layer with near-zero velocity at the surface...)? > Was that clear?? Just looking for insight and understanding here :-) > > -Stormy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: OAT Probe location > > > On 26 Jul 2005, at 15:27, Chris W wrote: > > >> <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm(at)cox.net> >> >> sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >>> ... the air coming out of the freash air vent is actually a >>> measured 8 degrees F hotter than ambient. >>> >>> >>> >> Really?! Out of curiosity, what air speed was that measurement >> taken at? >> >> > > I'd also be interested to know how one measures the ambient > temperature so one can compare the output of the temp sensor to > ambient. > > At 170 kt TAS, the temperature increase due to ram rise would be > about 7 deg F. I.e, if you took the air coming in the NACA scoop, > and let it slow down so it is at rest with respect to the aircraft, > you would expect its temperature to be about 7 deg F hotter than the > ambient temperature. Just be glad you aren't racing for the > Unlimited Gold at Reno. At the speeds those guys are running, the > ram rise would be over 45 deg F, and the ambient temperature is > already pretty hot. > > The ram rise in deg C is equal to the square of the TAS in kt divided > by 7592. > The ram rise in deg F is equal to the square of the TAS in mph > divided by 5587. > > The amount of the ram rise sensed by the temperature sensor will > vary, depending on the probe's recovery factor. Good quality probes > supposedly have recovery factors of between 0.95 and 1, but some > probes may have lower recovery factors. The temperature measured by > the probe would be about: > > IAT=OAT+K*(TAS > 2/7592) > > where IAT is the indicated air temperature reported by the probe, in > deg C > OAT is the actual ambient air temperature, in deg C, > K is the probe's recovery factor, and > TAS is the true airspeed in kt > You may be more familiar with the classical equation that relates ram > rise to Mach. > > total air temperature/ambient air temperature = (1 + 0.2 * M > 2), with > both temperatures expressed in either degrees Kelvin, or degrees > Rankin). Or, > > OAT = (IAT + 273.15) / (1 + 0.2*K*M > 2) - 273.15 > > where where IAT is the indicated air temperature reported by the > probe, in deg C, > OAT is the actual ambient air temperature, in deg C, > K is the probe's recovery factor, and > M is the Mach number. > > The first time I saw the equation with TAS, I thought it must be an > approximation, as we are always told that ram rise is a function of > Mach. But, one day when I was bored, I dissected the equations and > found that the equation with TAS was mathematically equivalent to the > one with Mach. > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2005
From: Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Mike Robertson wrote: > >I installed the probe in the NACA scope. It read hot. On the second plane I installed it under the wing gap fairing. It read hot. Not as bad as the NACA scope location but still high. The probe needs to be somewhere outboard on the wing. I have seen several that were mounted on one of the access panels under the wings, or very close to an access panel so it was easy to install. > > > Why not behind the canopy on the top of the plane? -- Chris W ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DOUGPFLYRV(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 28, 2005
Subject: Re: fresh engines and new airplanes
In a message dated 7/28/2005 8:52:05 A.M. Central Daylight Time, BPA(at)bpaengines.com writes: Okay you guys, here is how we break an engine in at our shop. THANKS FOR SHARING THIS INFO. DOUG PRESTON BHM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2005
From: sportav8r(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
I think I'm following you, here, but is that warming effect from friction, a-la spaceship re-entry fireball stuff, or compression of the air, as in ideal gas laws (Boyle's?). My physics is a bit rusty. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> Subject: Re: RV-List: OAT Probe location The air that is touching the probe will be at zero velocity with respect to the probe, so it will be warmer than the ambient temperature. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2005
From: David Leonard <wdleonard(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Rivet gun, c-arm, RV-6 wing tips and wheel pants and scoop on
E-bay. Hi gang, I have just moved and decided to put some of this stuff to better use (sell it on e-bay). Thanks. Rivet Gun 3x Van's Vans<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd1&item4565263704&ssPageNameSTRK:MESE:IT> C-frame C-arm Riveting and dimpling tool Van's Vans<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd1&item4565262082&ssPageNameSTRK:MESE:IT> Vans RV6 Wheel Fairing Fiberglass Van's RV-6<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd1&item4565259744&ssPageNameSTRK:MESE:IT> Vans RV6 Wing Tip Fiberglass Van's RV-6<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd1&item4565257318&ssPageNameSTRK:MESE:IT> Vans RV6 Fiberglass Intake Scoop Van's RV-6<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd1&item4565253814&ssPageNameSTRK:MESE:IT> -- Dave Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://members.aol.com/vp4skydoc/index.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Date: Jul 28, 2005
Both the OAT probe and the space vehicle reentry temp rises can be looked at as heating due to compression. The equations are different for supersonic speeds though, as the shock wave has a major effect. Kevin On 28 Jul 2005, at 13:00, sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote: > > I think I'm following you, here, but is that warming effect from > friction, a-la spaceship re-entry fireball stuff, or compression of > the air, as in ideal gas laws (Boyle's?). My physics is a bit rusty. > > -Stormy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: OAT Probe location > > > The air that is touching the probe will be at zero velocity with > respect to the probe, so it will be warmer than the ambient > temperature. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2005
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
So, Mr. Horton, what exactly do you do for a living? You sound like a test pilot extrordinair? > >Both the OAT probe and the space vehicle reentry temp rises can be >looked at as heating due to compression. The equations are different >for supersonic speeds though, as the shock wave has a major effect. > >Kevin > >On 28 Jul 2005, at 13:00, sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > I think I'm following you, here, but is that warming effect from > > friction, a-la spaceship re-entry fireball stuff, or compression of > > the air, as in ideal gas laws (Boyle's?). My physics is a bit rusty. > > > > -Stormy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> > > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: OAT Probe location > > > > > > > > The air that is touching the probe will be at zero velocity with > > respect to the probe, so it will be warmer than the ambient > > temperature. > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
Date: Jul 28, 2005
On 28 Jul 2005, at 17:05, Scott Bilinski wrote: > wireless.com> > > So, Mr. Horton, what exactly do you do for a living? You sound like > a test > pilot extrordinair? > > Scott, I don't claim to be a test pilot extrordinair, but I am a test pilot. I had the good fortune to go to Test Pilot School in France for a year, way back in 87-88, and have worked full time as a test pilot since then. For more info, see: http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8/staticpages/index.php?page=Kevin_Horton Kevin Horton ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2005
From: Walter Tondu <walter(at)tondu.com>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
On 07/28 8:09, Kevin Horton wrote: > I don't claim to be a test pilot extrordinair, but I am a test > pilot. I had the good fortune to go to Test Pilot School in France > for a year, way back in 87-88, and have worked full time as a test > pilot since then. > > For more info, see: > > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8/staticpages/index.php?page=Kevin_Horton Damn Kevin, you are da Man! That's a life I can only dream of. And I plan on dreaming even more after reading your story. But using LaTex and Perl for document templates and data gathering! You are a GOD! Keep the data coming, I'm enjoying this way too much. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6160hp(at)AOL.COM
Date: Jul 28, 2005
Subject: RV Forum Oswego NY Sept 10-12, 2005
RV listers.....11th Annual RV Forum KFZY Oswego NY Sept 10 through 12th 2005. GO to _WWW.eaachapter486.com_ (http://www.eaachapter486.com) for details. Regards David McManmon RV6 builder, pilot ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2005
From: Bruno <rv4(at)videotron.ca>
Subject: RV-6 ACCIDENT NEAR MONTREAL,QUEBEC
Good evening Gentlemen Early this morning RV-6 C-GAPF crashed in the Richelieu river while doing circuits at the St-Jean Airport (CYJN). The aircraft had been purchased 2 weeks ago from a friend of mine (not the builder) and the new owner was receiving training due to his lack of confidence in his abilities with his new aircraft. In this accident, I loss a good friend of mine, the passenger, Robert Riendeau, a true gentleman and RV builder. Robert, was in the final preparation toward a flight next year in his RV-4. In the mean time, he was flying a KR-1, which he bought a few years ago and totally refurbished. The RV-6 (Mazda Powered) had been very well maintained and had been worked on extensively last winter. From initial reports, the aircraft appeared to have suffered an engine failure and crashed almost strait in the river (most likely stalled). We should know a little more in the next few days. Robert, blue skies my friend.. Bruno ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2005
From: "Tim Bryan" <flyrv6(at)bryantechnology.com>
Subject: And another crash at Oshkosh?
I just heard from a friend and -9A builder who was at Oshkosh and told me a RV-6 (A) crashed on landing on Saturday evening. Anybody have details of what caused this? Apparently landed short and then cartwheeled. Tim RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2005
From: Henry Hochberg <aeroncadoc(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
Try this url: http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/events 04/media/21_9PT.txt Remember to include the whole url not just the underlined part. Henry H. Tim Bryan wrote: > > > I just heard from a friend and -9A builder who was at Oshkosh and told me a >RV-6 (A) crashed on landing on Saturday evening. Anybody have details of >what caused this? Apparently landed short and then cartwheeled. > >Tim >RV-6 > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2005
From: Henry Hochberg <aeroncadoc(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
******************************************************************************** ** Report created 7/28/2005 Record 21 ** ******************************************************************************** IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 9PT Make/Model: RV6 Description: RV-6 Date: 07/24/2005 Time: 0036 Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: Minor Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Minor LOCATION City: OSHKOSH State: WI Country: US DESCRIPTION ACFT ON LANDING, LANDED SHORT AND FLIPPED OVER, OSHKOSH, WI INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 1 Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: WEATHER: 0053Z 18010KT 10SM CLR 23/20 A2997 OTHER DATA Departed: Dep Date: Dep. Time: Destination: OSHKOSH, WI Flt Plan: UNK Wx Briefing: Y Last Radio Cont: ON FINAL Last Clearance: CLRD TO LAND FAA FSDO: MILWAUKEE, WI (GL13) Entry date: 07/25/2005 Henry Hochberg wrote: > >Try this url: > >http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/events >04/media/21_9PT.txt > >Remember to include the whole url not just the underlined part. > >Henry H. > > >Tim Bryan wrote: > > > >> >> >>I just heard from a friend and -9A builder who was at Oshkosh and told me a >>RV-6 (A) crashed on landing on Saturday evening. Anybody have details of >>what caused this? Apparently landed short and then cartwheeled. >> >>Tim >>RV-6 >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2005
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: OAT Probe location
I actually looked into this once. Heating from air friction doesn't become significant until you're well over 200mph, as I recall. It might be detectable in a very energetic RV-8. Simplest is to just put the probe behind some obstruction so it doesn't get the direct blast. My RV-6A has a Lift Reserve Indicator probe which is a pretty stout piece of aluminum sticking down from the underside of the wing. I mounted the OAT probe just aft of that. At least it won't contribute much drag there (I assume). sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote: > > I think I'm following you, here, but is that warming effect from friction, a-la spaceship re-entry fireball stuff, or compression of the air, as in ideal gas laws (Boyle's?). My physics is a bit rusty. > >-Stormy > -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A, cowl. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2005
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
That was not at OSH but a airport very close to. Here is the article: "Everybody's okay!" the wife of the Brennand Airport owner exclaimed, out of breath, when contacted about another plane crash linked to the EAA AirVenture. The crash happened around 4:30 p.m. Wednesday. Pat Vander Wielen tells Action 2 News a couple was coming in for a landing at the Neenah airport when she saw the plane cartwheel. "I looked back to see this red airplane coming down and cartwheeling over the runway," she said. "It scared me. I just screamed, 'Call 911! Call 911!" "I don't know if a strut broke or what," Vander Wielen said. The pilot told controllers he was coming in too high then overcorrected, which caused him to cartwheel, the Winnebago County Sheriff's Department said. The Texas couple wasn't seriously hurt when their home-built, two-seater 2002 Hooper flipped. The man had bumps and bruises but declined to be taken to a hospital. The woman was taken taken to the hospital for observation after complaining she thought she heard her neck snap during the crash, but Vander Wielen said the woman was walking and talking. The EAA lists Brennand, off Breezewood Lane, as one of the airports for the overflow crowd of pilots for AirVenture. > > > I just heard from a friend and -9A builder who was at Oshkosh and told me a >RV-6 (A) crashed on landing on Saturday evening. Anybody have details of >what caused this? Apparently landed short and then cartwheeled. > >Tim >RV-6 > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy(at)romeolima.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
Date: Jul 29, 2005
>> I just heard from a friend and -9A builder who was at Oshkosh and told me >> a >>RV-6 (A) crashed on landing on Saturday evening. Anybody have details of >>what caused this? Apparently landed short and then cartwheeled. >> >>Tim >>RV-6 >> >> > No details yet other than he lives in Eugene, OR I believe it was Ross > Mickey who has in the past > posted to this list. I have seen his airplane a few times. According to > the NTSB prelim report there was > minor damage and no injuries thankfully. I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27 after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing again they stuffed a cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100' and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very soggy grass (from all the rain) the nosewheel caught and he flipped over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him ("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and other bruises and released a day or two later. He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed. Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back don't expect that for a few days. The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it. Randy Lervold www.rv-3.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2005
From: Walter Tondu <walter(at)tondu.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
On 07/29 8:08, Randy Lervold wrote: [...] > He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will likely > be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. He credits > his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and especially the fact > that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The anchor for the crotch > strap was seriously deformed. [...] If you've been contemplating installing a 5-pt harness, this ought to be enough persuasion to do so. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larygagnon(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 29, 2005
Subject: Re: aviation activities/museums in the NYC area?
Reinbeck Aerodrome is north of the city and certainly worth the drive, especially on the weekends. Larry Gagnon RV6 N6LG Flying RV6A fuse ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2005
From: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
He credits > his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and especially the fact > that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The anchor for the crotch > strap was seriously deformed. OUCH! Walter Tondu wrote: On 07/29 8:08, Randy Lervold wrote: [...] > He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will likely > be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. He credits > his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and especially the fact > that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The anchor for the crotch > strap was seriously deformed. [...] If you've been contemplating installing a 5-pt harness, this ought to be enough persuasion to do so. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2005
From: Nels Hanson <pa201950(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only)that this gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left wing. The nosewheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nosewheel and propeller dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did not "cartwheel".The pilot was trapped in the plane,that was easy to tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMTs and crash squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were inside. The pilot(only passenger)was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officals" got there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. Of course,now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to take off. Again,just my opinion,but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. However,we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only ones that should be flying our planes,not the tower. This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I had already make my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were,but I want to thank them for being there. So,there it is,a very closeup eyewitness account from someone who flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out the way it did. --- Randy Lervold wrote: > > > >> I just heard from a friend and -9A builder who > was at Oshkosh and told me > >> a > >>RV-6 (A) crashed on landing on Saturday evening. > Anybody have details of > >>what caused this? Apparently landed short and > then cartwheeled. > >> > >>Tim > >>RV-6 > >> > >> > > No details yet other than he lives in Eugene, OR I > believe it was Ross > > Mickey who has in the past > > posted to this list. I have seen his airplane a > few times. According to > > the NTSB prelim report there was > > minor damage and no injuries thankfully. > > > I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke > with him directly at a > restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the > whole story. Here's the > scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on > short final for 27 after > holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they > started landing again > they stuffed a cherokee in front of him on short > final. Spacing was too > tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact > altitude, but he got hit with > some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe > 50-100' and pancaked > just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the > runway but veered to the > left. When he went off the left edge into the very > soggy grass (from all the > rain) the nosewheel caught and he flipped over > instantly. He has an AOA Pro > and said it never screamed at him ("angle, angle, > push") which is how he > knew it was wake turbulence and not a stall. He was > taken to the hospital > with a bruised sternum and other bruises and > released a day or two later. > > He was insured and has already met with the > adjusters. The plane will likely > be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and > rebuild it. He credits > his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury > and especially the fact > that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The > anchor for the crotch > strap was seriously deformed. > > Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help > him disassemble the > plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the > engine off at Bart > Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. > Yes, the prop struck, > in fact he said he could see the bent tips still > rotating in front of him as > he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. > Once he gets back > perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive > back don't expect that > for a few days. > > The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also > was insured, whew! I have > never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch > strap anchor into ALL the > models. If you don't have one please consider adding > it. > > Randy Lervold > www.rv-3.com > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark" <2eyedocs(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
Date: Jul 29, 2005
I am currently in a Cirrus SR22 until I move UP to my brand new custom built RV-10 ;-) Standard equipment in a Cirrus is a strike hammer kept in between the seats in case of finding yourself upside down after landing to break out the glass. There would be no way to open the door in an overturned Cirrus. The hammer looks like a standard ball peen (sp) hammer. After reading this account of this accident, maybe this might be a good accessory for all of us to carry in our RV's. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Nels Hanson To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:34 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only)that this gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left wing. The nosewheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nosewheel and propeller dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did not "cartwheel".The pilot was trapped in the plane,that was easy to tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMTs and crash squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were inside. The pilot(only passenger)was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officals" got there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. Of course,now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to take off. Again,just my opinion,but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. However,we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only ones that should be flying our planes,not the tower. This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I had already make my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were,but I want to thank them for being there. So,there it is,a very closeup eyewitness account from someone who flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out the way it did. --- Randy Lervold wrote: > > > >> I just heard from a friend and -9A builder who > was at Oshkosh and told me > >> a > >>RV-6 (A) crashed on landing on Saturday evening. > Anybody have details of > >>what caused this? Apparently landed short and > then cartwheeled. > >> > >>Tim > >>RV-6 > >> > >> > > No details yet other than he lives in Eugene, OR I > believe it was Ross > > Mickey who has in the past > > posted to this list. I have seen his airplane a > few times. According to > > the NTSB prelim report there was > > minor damage and no injuries thankfully. > > > I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke > with him directly at a > restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the > whole story. Here's the > scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on > short final for 27 after > holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they > started landing again > they stuffed a cherokee in front of him on short > final. Spacing was too > tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact > altitude, but he got hit with > some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe > 50-100' and pancaked > just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the > runway but veered to the > left. When he went off the left edge into the very > soggy grass (from all the > rain) the nosewheel caught and he flipped over > instantly. He has an AOA Pro > and said it never screamed at him ("angle, angle, > push") which is how he > knew it was wake turbulence and not a stall. He was > taken to the hospital > with a bruised sternum and other bruises and > released a day or two later. > > He was insured and has already met with the > adjusters. The plane will likely > be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and > rebuild it. He credits > his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury > and especially the fact > that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The > anchor for the crotch > strap was seriously deformed. > > Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help > him disassemble the > plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the > engine off at Bart > Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. > Yes, the prop struck, > in fact he said he could see the bent tips still > rotating in front of him as > he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. > Once he gets back > perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive > back don't expect that > for a few days. > > The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also > was insured, whew! I have > never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch > strap anchor into ALL the > models. If you don't have one please consider adding > it. > > Randy Lervold > www.rv-3.com > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2005
From: "Tim Bryan" <flyrv6(at)bryantechnology.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
Nels, We are glad you were there also. Thanks for your part in helping out. It is unfortunate situation, but I can certainly understand how a pilot might let circumstances dictate the flying. I was there myself once with a gear up landing. Take Care Tim DNA -------Original Message------- From: Nels Hanson Date: 07/29/05 19:42:41 Subject: Re: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only)that this gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left wing. The nosewheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nosewheel and propeller dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did not "cartwheel".The pilot was trapped in the plane,that was easy to tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMTs and crash squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were inside. The pilot(only passenger)was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officals" got there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. Of course,now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to take off. Again,just my opinion,but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. However,we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only ones that should be flying our planes,not the tower. This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I had already make my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were,but I want to thank them for being there. So,there it is,a very closeup eyewitness account from someone who flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out the way it did. --- Randy Lervold wrote: > > > >> I just heard from a friend and -9A builder who > was at Oshkosh and told me > >> a > >>RV-6 (A) crashed on landing on Saturday evening. > Anybody have details of > >>what caused this? Apparently landed short and > then cartwheeled. > >> > >>Tim > >>RV-6 > >> > >> > > No details yet other than he lives in Eugene, OR I > believe it was Ross > > Mickey who has in the past > > posted to this list. I have seen his airplane a > few times. According to > > the NTSB prelim report there was > > minor damage and no injuries thankfully. > > > I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke > with him directly at a > restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the > whole story. Here's the > scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on > short final for 27 after > holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they > started landing again > they stuffed a cherokee in front of him on short > final. Spacing was too > tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact > altitude, but he got hit with > some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe > 50-100' and pancaked > just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the > runway but veered to the > left. When he went off the left edge into the very > soggy grass (from all the > rain) the nosewheel caught and he flipped over > instantly. He has an AOA Pro > and said it never screamed at him ("angle, angle, > push") which is how he > knew it was wake turbulence and not a stall. He was > taken to the hospital > with a bruised sternum and other bruises and > released a day or two later. > > He was insured and has already met with the > adjusters. The plane will likely > be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and > rebuild it. He credits > his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury > and especially the fact > that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The > anchor for the crotch > strap was seriously deformed. > > Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help > him disassemble the > plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the > engine off at Bart > Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. > Yes, the prop struck, > in fact he said he could see the bent tips still > rotating in front of him as > he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. > Once he gets back > perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive > back don't expect that > for a few days. > > The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also > was insured, whew! I have > never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch > strap anchor into ALL the > models. If you don't have one please consider adding > it. > > Randy Lervold > www.rv-3.com > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: sturdy(at)att.net
Subject: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
Date: Jul 30, 2005
1.25 RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO Received: contains an IP address used for HELO Last week I reported on first impressions of my Garmin 396. Now I will give my impressions of it in flight. I located it in the same provided swivel socket I had my 196 in. I used the same power recepticle (except the 396 charges on ships power) and the same GPS antenna, which I have on the glare shield just behind the windscreen. The Smart Antenna I had to move around to locate as it has a magnetic base and would influence the compass, which I have mounted on the glare shield left on center. I found that I could put the Smart Antenna in the far right rear of the glare shield, just in front of the role bar (RV-8), and it had no effect on the compass. Then I used the audio input cable I had previously for a portable radio to connect the 396 XM Radio output to my audio panel jack. I left for Mason City on Friday and started getting used to the screen, setups, winds display, and radio. Screen is VERY readable, just a slight rotation to get rid of glare, but you can even read it with glare. Setup is personal according to where you want to start seeing things on the screen according to range, and to whether you want to see them on the Nav screen or go to the WX menu. Winds aloft are great and allows you to see surface, 3k, 6k, 9k, etc. By zooming in or out, you can go "in" to see wind barbs or go "out" to see flow patterns at various altitudes coming out of highs or into lows to help with decision making. You have almost 200 channels on the radio to select or scan through to use as background, which the audio panel mutes when there is a radio transmission. Easy to change volume (hit power button, use thumb button left or right, hit enter). After refueling at Iola KS (K88) I headed North. My course line went right through Kansas City airspace, and just to the North of it was a big mass of red, yellow, and green on the 396 nav screen showing NEXRAD. Echo Tops display showed them to be well above where I could fly. Using the winds aloft patterns I decided to go around to the East side of KC and then head for the Northeast corner of the colored mass. As I paralleled the weather, the red, yellow , and green areas on the screen were the same as I was seeing out the window. The greens were light enough rain that I would have gone through if I needed to, whereas the red and yellow had heavy rain falling out of them. Storm Cells showed the movement. An ocassional lightning bolt was soon registered on the screen. By going around the East side I had a tailwind as shown on the Winds Aloft, whereas the West side would have been a headwind. What I saw on the winds aloft screen was duplicated by my GPS groundspeed. By now I know I have made a GOOD investment. Also, the Airmets and Sigmets were displayed by colored dashed lines, and by running the cusor to the lines and getting a readout, I did not have to try to picture what Flight Watch might have been trying to tell me. Another benefit is the voice warning that accompanies the terrain and obstacle display. While flying at Mason City with a formation of 20 on the wing at 1000', it would visually warn me with an inset on the Nav screen of a tower and voice warn me through me through the audio system. Also in the steep final turn it would say "Rate of descent, Pull up". After the formation clinic on the leg from Mason City to OSH with 12 RVs there were some layered clouds and ceilings. Good chance to check out the METARS flags beside each airfield symbol which has weather reporting. I soon found the the flags and the coded display (when you put the cursor over the flag) is only as good as the time stamp in the display. The weather was moving in from the Northwest and the AWOS reporting into the system is usually only hourly, so it was well behind the voice report coming from the AWOS frequency. Something to take into consideration, but the TAFs displayed did forecast the trend. So as I got closer to OSH and listened to the AWOSs in range, I could tell it was not as good as the METARS display was telling me and I took the 12-ship down under through a hole early. On the way home to Texas I was able to take advantage of selecting the right altitude at the right time for the direction by checking the winds aloft patterns. There was a high over KC, and the display for each altitude showed the flow patterns to choose the right altitude. Then passing Dallas going to GTU I could see a big mass of colors South of Waco. By looking at the colors and lightning display I was able to choose where I wanted to go through. As I got closer, looking at the tops sticking up out the window agreeing with the screen display, I was able to select an area of light green between yellows and reds and I flew through the light rain with good vis and make it to the other side into the clear. Great system which paid off on the first trip. Now, if they would just have a turn on/turn off pay system rather than the monthly fee, I could only pay for it when I needed it. Stu McCurdy RV-8 Flying Falcon Flight Last week I reported on first impressions of my Garmin 396. Now I will give my impressions of it in flight. I located it in the same provided swivel socket I had my 196 in. I used the same power recepticle (except the 396 charges on ships power) and the same GPS antenna, which I have on the glare shield just behind the windscreen. The Smart Antenna I had to move around to locate as it has a magnetic base and would influence the compass, which I have mounted on the glare shield left on center. I found that I could put the Smart Antenna in the far right rear of the glare shield, just in front of the role bar (RV-8), and it had no effect on the compass. Then I used the audio input cable I had previously for a portable radio to connect the 396 XM Radio output to my audio panel jack. I left for Mason City on Friday and started getting used to the screen, setups, winds display, and radio. Screen is VERY readable, just a slight rotation to get rid of glare, but you can even read it with glare. Setup is personal according to where you want to start seeing things on the screen according to range, and to whether you want to see them on the Nav screen or go to the WX menu. Winds aloft are great and allows you to see surface, 3k, 6k, 9k, etc. By zooming in or out, you can go "in" to see wind barbs or go "out" to see flow patterns at various altitudes coming out of highs or into lows to help with decision making. You have almost 200 channels on the radio to select or scan through to use as background, which the audio panel mutes when there is a radio transmission. Easy to change volume (hit power button, use thumb button left or right, hit enter). After refueling at Iola KS (K88) I headed North. My course line went right through Kansas City airspace, and just to the North of it was a big mass of red, yellow, and green on the 396 nav screen showing NEXRAD. Echo Tops display showed them to be well above where I could fly. Using the winds aloft patterns I decided to go around to the East side of KC and then head for the Northeast corner of the colored mass. As I paralleled the weather, the red, yellow , and green areas on the screen were the same as I was seeing out the window. The greens were light enough rain that I would have gone through if I needed to, whereas the red and yellow had heavy rain falling out of them. Storm Cells showed the movement. An ocassional lightning bolt was soon registered on the screen. By going around the East side I had a tailwind as shown on the Winds Aloft, whereas the West side would have been a headwind. What I saw on the winds aloft screen was duplicated by my GPS groundspeed. By now I know I have made a GOOD investment. Also, the Airmets and Sigmets were displayed by colored dashed lines, and by running the cusor to the lines and getting a readout, I did not have to try to picture what Flight Watch might have been trying to tell me. Another benefit is the voice warning that accompanies the terrain and obstacle display. While flying at Mason City with a formation of 20 on the wing at 1000', it would visually warn me with an inset on the Nav screen of a tower and voice warn me through me through the audio system. Also in the steep final turn it would say "Rate of descent, Pull up". After the formation clinic on the leg from Mason City to OSH with 12 RVs there were some layered clouds and ceilings. Good chance to check out the METARS flags beside each airfield symbol which has weather reporting. I soon found the the flags and the coded display (when you put the cursor over the flag) is only as good as the time stamp in the display. The weather was moving in from the Northwest and the AWOS reporting into the system is usually only hourly, so it was well behind the voice report coming from the AWOS frequency. Something to take into consideration, but the TAFs displayed did forecast the trend. So as I got closer to OSH and listened to the AWOSs in range, I could tell it was not as good as the METARS display was telling me and I took the 12-ship down under through a hole early. On the way home to Texas I was able to take advantage of selecting the right altitude at the right time for the direction by checking the winds aloft patterns. There was a high over KC, and the display for each altitude showed the flow patterns to choose the right altitude. Then passing Dallas going to GTU I could see a big mass of colors South of Waco. By looking at the colors and lightning display I was able to choose where I wanted to go through. As I got closer, looking at the tops sticking up out the window agreeing with the screen display, I was able to select an area of light green between yellows and reds and I flew through the light rain with good vis and make it to the other side into the clear. Great system which paid off on the first trip. Now, if they would just have a turn on/turn off pay system rather than the monthly fee, I could only pay for it when I needed it. Stu McCurdy RV-8 Flying Falcon Flight ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
Date: Jul 30, 2005
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report > >Using the winds aloft patterns I decided to go > around to the East side of KC and then head for the Northeast corner of > the colored > mass. I have carefully studied all the manuals that are on line and find several things are ambiguous. One is the reference to winds aloft. Garmin does not say whether these are forecast or observed winds. They just call them winds aloft. I strongly suspect they are the forecast winds, which are sometimes right and often wrong. If they are forecast does it show the forecast time on the display? I can not find the valid time in the pictures that are available on line. Have mine on order anyway. Truly hard to believe what is available on the unit. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://n5lp.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: sturdy(at)att.net
Subject: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
Date: Jul 31, 2005
1.25 RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO Received: contains an IP address used for HELO Larry, Good question. It does not say in the manual or on the screen if the winds aloft are forecast or observed, but it does say the winds aloft beamed up by the system are updated every 12 minutes. I can say that the wind barbs when zoomed in and the wind streamlines when zoomed out agreed in general with the GPS groundspeed, so they were a valid indicator for choosing direction and altitude. It also says the METARS are updated by the system every 12 minutes, but they are only as current as the time stamp on the display when they are input into the system. Stu McCurdy ---------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.com> Subject: Re: RV-List: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report Subject: RV-List: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report > >Using the winds aloft patterns I decided to go > around to the East side of KC and then head for the Northeast corner of > the colored > mass. I have carefully studied all the manuals that are on line and find several things are ambiguous. One is the reference to winds aloft. Garmin does not say whether these are forecast or observed winds. They just call them winds aloft. I strongly suspect they are the forecast winds, which are sometimes right and often wrong. If they are forecast does it show the forecast time on the display? I can not find the valid time in the pictures that are available on line. Have mine on order anyway. Truly hard to believe what is available on the unit. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM ---------------------------------- Last week I reported on first impressions of my Garmin 396. Now I will give my impressions of it in flight. I located it in the same provided swivel socket I had my 196 in. I used the same power recepticle (except the 396 charges on ships power) and the same GPS antenna, which I have on the glare shield just behind the windscreen. The Smart Antenna I had to move around to locate as it has a magnetic base and would influence the compass, which I have mounted on the glare shield left on center. I found that I could put the Smart Antenna in the far right rear of the glare shield, just in front of the role bar (RV-8), and it had no effect on the compass. Then I used the audio input cable I had previously for a portable radio to connect the 396 XM Radio output to my audio panel jack. I left for Mason City on Friday and started getting used to the screen, setups, winds display, and radio. Screen is VERY readable, just a slight rotation to get rid of glare, but you can even read it with glare. Setup is personal according to where you want to start seeing things on the screen according to range, and to whether you want to see them on the Nav screen or go to the WX menu. Winds aloft are great and allows you to see surface, 3k, 6k, 9k, etc. By zooming in or out, you can go "in" to see wind barbs or go "out" to see flow patterns at various altitudes coming out of highs or into lows to help with decision making. You have almost 200 channels on the radio to select or scan through to use as background, which the audio panel mutes when there is a radio transmission. Easy to change volume (hit power button, use thumb button left or right, hit enter). After refueling at Iola KS (K88) I headed North. My course line went right through Kansas City airspace, and just to the North of it was a big mass of red, yellow, and green on the 396 nav screen showing NEXRAD. Echo Tops display showed them to be well above where I could fly. Using the winds aloft patterns I decided to go around to the East side of KC and then head for the Northeast corner of the colored mass. As I paralleled the weather, the red, yellow , and green areas on the screen were the same as I was seeing out the window. The greens were light enough rain that I would have gone through if I needed to, whereas the red and yellow had heavy rain falling out of them. Storm Cells showed the movement. An ocassional lightning bolt was soon registered on the screen. By going around the East side I had a tailwind as shown on the Winds Aloft, whereas the West side would have been a headwind. What I saw on the winds aloft screen was duplicated by my GPS groundspeed. By now I know I have made a GOOD investment. Also, the Airmets and Sigmets were displayed by colored dashed lines, and by running the cusor to the lines and getting a readout, I did not have to try to picture what Flight Watch might have been trying to tell me. Another benefit is the voice warning that accompanies the terrain and obstacle display. While flying at Mason City with a formation of 20 on the wing at 1000', it would visually warn me with an inset on the Nav screen of a tower and voice warn me through me through the audio system. Also in the steep final turn it would say "Rate of descent, Pull up". After the formation clinic on the leg from Mason City to OSH with 12 RVs there were some layered clouds and ceilings. Good chance to check out the METARS flags beside each airfield symbol which has weather reporting. I soon found the the flags and the coded display (when you put the cursor over the flag) is only as good as the time stamp in the display. The weather was moving in from the Northwest and the AWOS reporting into the system is usually only hourly, so it was well behind the voice report coming from the AWOS frequency. Something to take into consideration, but the TAFs displayed did forecast the trend. So as I got closer to OSH and listened to the AWOSs in range, I could tell it was not as good as the METARS display was telling me and I took the 12-ship down under through a hole early. On the way home to Texas I was able to take advantage of selecting the right altitude at the right time for the direction by checking the winds aloft patterns. There was a high over KC, and the display for each altitude showed the flow patterns to choose the right altitude. Then passing Dallas going to GTU I could see a big mass of colors South of Waco. By looking at the colors and lightning display I was able to choose where I wanted to go through. As I got closer, looking at the tops sticking up out the window agreeing with the screen display, I was able to select an area of light green between yellows and reds and I flew through the light rain with good vis and make it to the other side into the clear. Great system which paid off on the first trip. Now, if they would just have a turn on/turn off pay system rather than the monthly fee, I could only pay for it when I needed it. Stu McCurdy RV-8 Flying Falcon Flight Larry, Good question. It does not say in the manual or on the screen if the winds aloft are forecast or observed, but it does say the winds aloft beamed up by the system are updated every 12 minutes. I can say that the wind barbs when zoomed in and the wind streamlines when zoomed out agreed in general with the GPS groundspeed, so they were a valid indicator for choosing direction and altitude. It also says the METARS are updated by the system every 12 minutes, but they are only as current as the time stamp on the display when they are input into the system. Stu McCurdy ---------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Pardue" n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report -- RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.com Subject: RV-List: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report -- RV-List message posted by: sturdy(at)att.net Using the winds aloft patterns I decided to go around to the East side of KC and then head for the Northeast corner of the colored mass. I have carefully studied all the manuals that are on line and find several things are ambiguous. One is the reference to winds aloft. Garmin does not say whether these are forecast or observed winds. They just call them winds aloft. I strongly suspect they are the forecast winds, which are sometimes right and often wrong. If they are forecast does it show the forecast time on the display? I can not find the valid time in the pictures that are available on line. Have mine on order anyway. Truly hard to believe what is available on the unit. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM ---------------------------------- Last week I reported on first impressions of my Garmin 396. Now I will give my impressions of it in flight. I located it in the same provided swivel socket I had my 196 in. I used the same power recepticle (except the 396 charges on ships power) and the same GPS antenna, which I have on the glare shield just behind the windscreen. The Smart Antenna I had to move around to locate as it has a magnetic base and would influence the compass, which I have mounted on the glare shield left on center. I found that I could put the Smart Antenna in the far right rear of the glare shield, just in front of the role bar (RV-8), and it had no effect on the compass. Then I used the audio input cable I had previously for a portable radio to connect the 396 XM Radio output to my audio panel jack. I left for Mason City on Friday and started getting used to the screen, setups, winds display, and radio. Screen is VERY readable, just a slight rotation to get rid of glare, but you can even read it with glare. Setup is personal according to where you want to start seeing things on the screen according to range, and to whether you want to see them on the Nav screen or go to the WX menu. Winds aloft are great and allows you to see surface, 3k, 6k, 9k, etc. By zooming in or out, you can go "in" to see wind barbs or go "out" to see flow patterns at various altitudes coming out of highs or into lows to help with decision making. You have almost 200 channels on the radio to select or scan through to use as background, which the audio panel mutes when there is a radio transmission. Easy to change volume (hit power button, use thumb button left or right, hit enter). After refueling at Iola KS (K88) I headed North. My course line went right through Kansas City airspace, and just to the North of it was a big mass of red, yellow, and green on the 396 nav screen showing NEXRAD. Echo Tops display showed them to be well above where I could fly. Using the winds aloft patterns I decided to go around to the East side of KC and then head for the Northeast corner of the colored mass. As I paralleled the weather, the red, yellow , and green areas on the screen were the same as I was seeing out the window. The greens were light enough rain that I would have gone through if I needed to, whereas the red and yellow had heavy rain falling out of them. Storm Cells showed the movement. An ocassional lightning bolt was soon registered on the screen. By going around the East side I had a tailwind as shown on the Winds Aloft, whereas the West side would have been a headwind. What I saw on the winds aloft screen was duplicated by my GPS groundspeed. By now I know I have made a GOOD investment. Also, the Airmets and Sigmets were displayed by colored dashed lines, and by running the cusor to the lines and getting a readout, I did not have to try to picture what Flight Watch might have been trying to tell me. Another benefit is the voice warning that accompanies the terrain and obstacle display. While flying at Mason City with a formation of 20 on the wing at 1000', it would visually warn me with an inset on the Nav screen of a tower and voice warn me through me through the audio system. Also in the steep final turn it would say "Rate of descent, Pull up". After the formation clinic on the leg from Mason City to OSH with 12 RVs there were some layered clouds and ceilings. Good chance to check out the METARS flags beside each airfield symbol which has weather reporting. I soon found the the flags and the coded displa y (when you put the cursor over the flag) is only as good as the time stamp in the display. The weather was moving in from the Northwest and the AWOS reporting into the system is usually only hourly, so it was well behind the voice report coming from the AWOS frequency. Something to take into consideration, but the TAFs displayed did forecast the trend. So as I got closer to OSH and listened to the AWOSs in range, I could tell it was not as good as the METARS display was telling me and I took the 12-ship down under through a hole early. On the way home to Texas I was able to take advantage of selecting the right altitude at the right time for the direction by checking the winds aloft patterns. There was a high over KC, and the display for each altitude showed the flow patterns to choose the right altitude. Then passing Dallas going to GTU I could see a big mass of colors South of Waco. By looking at the colors and lightning displ ay I was able to choose where I wanted to go through. As I got closer, looking at the tops sticking up out the window agreeing with the screen display, I was able to select an area of light green between yellows and reds and I flew through the light rain with good vis and make it to the other side into the clear. Great system which paid off on the first trip. Now, if they would just have a turn on/turn off pay system rather than the monthly fee, I could only pay for it when I needed it. Stu McCurdy RV-8 Flying Falcon Flight ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2005
From: Rick Galati <rick6a(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
How much are the monthly fees for accessing the weather services using the 396? Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nick Nafsinger" <nick(at)creteaviation.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
Date: Jul 31, 2005
$30 for the Basic and $50 for Everything. Add another $7 if you want music. The prices are fixed for everything XM, Portable, Panel Mount, doesn't matter. To see what features you get in each package look here: http://www.xmradio.com/weather/av_service_pricing.html Now the disclamer. I don't work for XM, I'm just a VERY happy customer! My inflight 396 report is darn near identical to Stu's except I flew in from Western MN. Nexrad, Winds, everything where spot on. Nick -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati Subject: RV-List: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report How much are the monthly fees for accessing the weather services using the 396? Rick -- -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2005
From: rv6160hp(at)aol.com
Subject: EAA 486, RV Forum KFZY Sept 10-11-12
Just a friendly reminder...11th annual RV forum at KFZY, Oswego County NY Starting Friday Sept 10, Saturday the Technical forums and Sunday the fly in pancake breakfast.... See www.eaachapter486.com for more info Regards David McManmon RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLWynn(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 31, 2005
Subject: Stiffener Jig
Hi all, After getting frustrated with cutting straight lines for the elevator stiffeners, I made a simple jib for my bandsaw. Basically amounts to a flat slippery surface for it to all glide on, a 4" by 12" piece of melamine cut to the angle of the stiffener cut and a second straight piece to act as a guide. Cut a complete set for both elevators in about ten minutes. If anyone is interested, shoot me an email off-line and I will forward a couple of pictures. Regards, Michael Wynn RV-8, (still on the) Empennage San Ramon, California ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2005
From: <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Stiffener Jig
Mike I did something similar years ago. I used some scrap wood and a hot glue gun to make a "jig" on a paper shear. The jig holds the .025" angle in place. I used the knife of the paper shear to cut all the aluminum. I think I might still have a photo or two of that setup. It really made nice, consistant, repeatable cuts. Charlie Kuss ---- MLWynn(at)aol.com wrote: > > Hi all, > > After getting frustrated with cutting straight lines for the elevator > stiffeners, I made a simple jib for my bandsaw. Basically amounts to a flat slippery > surface for it to all glide on, a 4" by 12" piece of melamine cut to the > angle of the stiffener cut and a second straight piece to act as a guide. Cut a > complete set for both elevators in about ten minutes. If anyone is interested, > shoot me an email off-line and I will forward a couple of pictures. > > Regards, > > Michael Wynn > RV-8, (still on the) Empennage > San Ramon, California > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1(at)kc.rr.com>
Subject: Avionics??
Date: Jul 31, 2005
When I purchased my avionics I was able to get them from Bill Pippen, who at the time was considered to be one of the best and least expensive sources. However, now that Bill has 'retired' where is everyone getting their avionics (Garmin, PS Engineering etc.) equipment from? Who has the best prices? Regards, David Schaefer N142DS 'Geek One' ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics??
Date: Jul 31, 2005
On 31 Jul 2005, at 20:29, David Schaefer wrote: > > When I purchased my avionics I was able to get them from Bill > Pippen, who at > the time was considered to be one of the best and least expensive > sources. > However, now that Bill has 'retired' where is everyone getting their > avionics (Garmin, PS Engineering etc.) equipment from? Who has the > best > prices? > > John Stark had the best prices I could find when I bought my avionics. http://www.starkavionics.com/ Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLWynn(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Subject: Re: Stiffener Jig
Hi Charlie Never even thought about a paper cutter. That would probably be easier, less dangerous (moving sawblade) and get a better cut. I'll try that if I get yet another opportunity to do elevator stiffeners. Michael Do Not Achive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "charlie heathco" <cheathco(at)gvtc.com>
Subject: autopilot choices
Date: Aug 01, 2005
autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.2 Looking thru archs I dont see anything recent. I have my 6a apart, just got anual and want to go ahead with inst posibly both wing leveler and alt hold. would like coments as to pref of tru tract or trio?? Charlie Heathco Boerne stage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "charlie heathco" <cheathco(at)gvtc.com>
Subject: Radio repairman neeeded in Boerne Tx area
Date: Aug 01, 2005
autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.2 My nav side ID needs fixing, altho I dont realy need it, wondering who can recoment somebody in the area? Charlie Heathco ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kelly Patterson" <kbob(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 07/31/05
Date: Aug 01, 2005
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Stiffener Jig > > >Hi Charlie > >Never even thought about a paper cutter. That would probably >be easier, less >dangerous (moving sawblade) and get a better cut. I have a pair of tin snips that look like giant scissors and have no serrated edge. They were used for all .025 cuts and the occasional .032 material. Very fast and simple. Measurement is by eyeball for stiffeners. Kelly Patterson RV-6A final paint prepping PHX, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: C-Frame Mod
Date: Aug 01, 2005
From: "Stephanie Marshall" <smarshall(at)enid.org>
I remember seeing a modification for the C-Frame that replaces the striker with a handle that is worked by either hydraulics or the Air Compressor. My memory is REALLY vague on this, does anyone know where I can find out more information on this? Thanks, Stephanie www.rv-8a.4t.com This electronic mail message is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This message, together with any attachment, may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, print, retain, copy, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender and delete all copies of this message. Thank you ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Marty" <martorious(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: C-Frame Mod
Date: Aug 01, 2005
I don't know about pneumatic/hydraulic, but the DRDT-2 sold by ExperimentalAero (http://www.experimentalaero.com/) looks wonderful. By all accounts I've read everyone who has used both it and a regular c-frame seemed to prefer the DRDT-2 I know it's on my 'must have' list. Marty in Indiana RV8A preview plans in hand. |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- |server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephanie Marshall |Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 9:15 AM |To: rv-list(at)matronics.com |Subject: RV-List: C-Frame Mod | | | |I remember seeing a modification for the C-Frame that replaces the |striker with a handle that is worked by either hydraulics or the Air |Compressor. My memory is REALLY vague on this, does anyone know |where I can find out more information on this? | |Thanks, |Stephanie |www.rv-8a.4t.com | | |This electronic mail message is intended exclusively for the |individual or entity to which it is addressed. This message, together |with any attachment, may contain confidential and privileged |information. Any unauthorized review, use, print, retain, copy, |disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have |received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender |and delete all copies of this message. Thank you | | | | | ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: C-Frame Mod
Date: Aug 01, 2005
From: "Stephanie Marshall" <smarshall(at)enid.org>
That's IT! Thanks! Stephanie www.rv-8a.4t.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marty Subject: RE: RV-List: C-Frame Mod I don't know about pneumatic/hydraulic, but the DRDT-2 sold by ExperimentalAero (http://www.experimentalaero.com/) looks wonderful. By all accounts I've read everyone who has used both it and a regular c-frame seemed to prefer the DRDT-2 I know it's on my 'must have' list. Marty in Indiana RV8A preview plans in hand. |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- |server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephanie Marshall |Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 9:15 AM |To: rv-list(at)matronics.com |Subject: RV-List: C-Frame Mod | | | |I remember seeing a modification for the C-Frame that replaces the |striker with a handle that is worked by either hydraulics or the Air |Compressor. My memory is REALLY vague on this, does anyone know |where I can find out more information on this? | |Thanks, |Stephanie |www.rv-8a.4t.com | | |This electronic mail message is intended exclusively for the |individual or entity to which it is addressed. This message, together |with any attachment, may contain confidential and privileged |information. Any unauthorized review, use, print, retain, copy, |disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have |received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender |and delete all copies of this message. Thank you | | | | | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: Countersinking Longerons, Stiffeners
Date: Aug 01, 2005
> My question: When I countersunk everything, I used a AN426AD3 rivet to > gauge the appropriate depth of the countersink. The dimples don't > really sit in there very well. Did others find it necessary to > countersink all the holes deeper? I know that this is done in other > parts of the project, but basically I would like confirmation that > cutting the countersinks a little deeper is what should be done here. Are you priming after you countersink? Primer adds enough thickness that it can change a "perfect" countersink into one where the rivet sits slightly proud. Something to consider. Otherwise, and in addition, practice makes perfect. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (578 hours) http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Aircraft Technical Book Company" <winterland(at)rkymtnhi.com>
Subject: recommended carb shop?
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Can someone recommend an honest and capable carburetor shop to service an MSA 4-5? I've got a series of problems in the idle to midrange circuit that are getting too pronounced to continue to fly as it is. Their is a pronounced and worsening hesitation when throttling up through about 1500 rpm There is beginning to be a rpm fluctuation of about 100-200 rpm around the 1300-1700 range And there seems to be a growing stiff spot in the throttle itself I've also noticed that there is no rpm rise during shut down and adjusting the idle screw doesn't make any difference. Andy ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: recommended carb shop?
Date: Aug 01, 2005
From: "Rhonda Bewley" <Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com>
Mike's Fuel Metering in Tulsa, OK gets our carburetors. Here's a phone number. (918) 838-6217 Rhonda Barrett-Bewley Barrett Precision Engines, Inc. Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Technical Book Company Subject: RV-List: recommended carb shop? Can someone recommend an honest and capable carburetor shop to service an MSA 4-5? I've got a series of problems in the idle to midrange circuit that are getting too pronounced to continue to fly as it is. Their is a pronounced and worsening hesitation when throttling up through about 1500 rpm There is beginning to be a rpm fluctuation of about 100-200 rpm around the 1300-1700 range And there seems to be a growing stiff spot in the throttle itself I've also noticed that there is no rpm rise during shut down and adjusting the idle screw doesn't make any difference. Andy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2005
From: gert <gert.v(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: C-Frame Mod
I have mod'ed my dimpler http://www.geocities.com/rv8abldr/cframe.html uses a foot switch to operate the solenoid Stephanie Marshall wrote: > >I remember seeing a modification for the C-Frame that replaces the striker with a handle that is worked by either hydraulics or the Air Compressor. My memory is REALLY vague on this, does anyone know where I can find out more information on this? > >Thanks, >Stephanie >www.rv-8a.4t.com > > >This electronic mail message is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This message, together with any attachment, may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, print, retain, copy, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender and delete all copies of this message. Thank you > > > > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Subject: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Is an XM agreement per device, or per customer (and all his devices: car, plane, mobile, etc)? - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Nick Nafsinger said: > > > $30 for the Basic and $50 for Everything. Add another $7 if you want > music. The prices are fixed for everything XM, Portable, Panel Mount, > doesn't matter. > > To see what features you get in each package look here: > http://www.xmradio.com/weather/av_service_pricing.html > > Now the disclamer. I don't work for XM, I'm just a VERY happy customer! > My inflight 396 report is darn near identical to Stu's except I flew in > from Western MN. Nexrad, Winds, everything where spot on. > > Nick > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report > > > How much are the monthly fees for accessing the weather services using > the 396? > > Rick > > > -- > > > -- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Cutter" <rcutter(at)cupower.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Larry, I believe it is per device. My son pays for his, his brother's and mine. They are all on one account and he gets a discount for the last two, but each unit is billed. I have a Roady II and use in my truck and home. This also allows you to listen online by code from your unit, as I am doing as I write this. RVRC Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report > > Is an XM agreement per device, or per customer (and all his devices: car, > plane, mobile, etc)? > > - > Larry Bowen > Larry(at)BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > Nick Nafsinger said: >> >> >> $30 for the Basic and $50 for Everything. Add another $7 if you want >> music. The prices are fixed for everything XM, Portable, Panel Mount, >> doesn't matter. >> >> To see what features you get in each package look here: >> http://www.xmradio.com/weather/av_service_pricing.html >> >> Now the disclamer. I don't work for XM, I'm just a VERY happy customer! >> My inflight 396 report is darn near identical to Stu's except I flew in >> from Western MN. Nexrad, Winds, everything where spot on. >> >> Nick >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati >> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report >> >> >> How much are the monthly fees for accessing the weather services using >> the 396? >> >> Rick >> >> >> -- >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2005
From: Bob J <rocketbob(at)gmail.com>
Subject: sky dynamics oil pickup
I am looking for some pictures of the swinging oil pickup that is used in the Maxi-Sump systems made by Sky Dynamics. I talked to Kevin and he described it to me but as the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words. If you have one of these sumps I'd love to see a pic of the oil pickup mechanism. Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 600+ hours, F1 under const. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Persyk" <dpersyk(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Crepe Paper Streamer Paint Job
Date: Aug 01, 2005
About 5 or 6 years ago there were pictures of an RV6 that won awards at 6 OSH. The paint job depicted crepe paper streamers fluttering along the fuselage. Id appreciate it if someone could tell me which issue of EAA the pictures appeared in or otherwise advise me where I can get my hands on pictures of that beautiful plane. My friend is going to get a custom paint job on his Extra 300 and wed like to copy that one. Thanks! Dennis Persyk 6A N600DP sold RV page http://home.att.net/~dpersyk/rv6a.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brett Morawski" <brett.morawski@buckeye-express.com>
Subject: Stiffener Jig
Date: Aug 01, 2005
For anyone wanting to try the paper cutter route, I believe you need to have a pretty heavy one with a wood base. I tried using a cheap $20 plastic model and the whole thing just twisted itself up when I tried to cut a stiffener. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MLWynn(at)aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Stiffener Jig Hi Charlie Never even thought about a paper cutter. That would probably be easier, less dangerous (moving sawblade) and get a better cut. I'll try that if I get yet another opportunity to do elevator stiffeners. Michael Do Not Achive Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com 1:15:42 AM ET - 8/1/2005 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jsd41(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Subject: ODYSSEY BATTERY
Listers I have a Odyssey PC 625 battery in my RV6A. My airplane isn't finished yet, it is still in my basement. I have been adjusting on my flaps, and left the master switch on for about 2 weeks. My battery is dead now. I can't seem to get it back up to full charge. The manual says to charge it at 10 amps for no more then 3 hours. I can't get it to take charge. It is showing about 5 volts. Does anybody know how to get this battery back to full charge? Thanks Jerry Davis Glen Carbon ,ILL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RVer273sb(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Subject: Re: ODYSSEY BATTERY
I have found that if you discharge an oddesy battery that deep is is toast. Haven't been able to save it in that case. Stewart RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6160hp(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Subject: EAA 486, RV Forum KFZY Sept 9-10-11
OK so I was looking at the wromg month...DOOPhhh thanks for not flaming me Just a friendly reminder...11th annual RV forum at KFZY, Oswego County NY Starting Friday Sept 9th, Saturday the Technical forums and Sunday the fly in pancake breakfast.... See www.eaachapter486.com for more info Regards David McManmon RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2005
From: <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Stiffener Jig
Brett, Yes, I used a nice high quality wood based shear. Charlie ---- Brett Morawski <brett.morawski@buckeye-express.com> wrote: > > For anyone wanting to try the paper cutter route, I believe you need to have > a pretty heavy one with a wood base. I tried using a cheap $20 plastic > model and the whole thing just twisted itself up when I tried to cut a > stiffener. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MLWynn(at)aol.com > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Stiffener Jig > > > Hi Charlie > > Never even thought about a paper cutter. That would probably be easier, > less > dangerous (moving sawblade) and get a better cut. I'll try that if I get > yet > another opportunity to do elevator stiffeners. > > Michael > Do Not Achive > > > Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com > 1:15:42 AM ET - 8/1/2005 > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <fablef(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: autopilot choices
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Hi Charlie, Since I sell the Trutrak units, I'll begin my e-mail by telling you that the response below is nothing more that my personal opinion from having owned both a Trio and a Trutrak unit. Both units had their strenghts and weaknesses, and here are just a few of them: Trio 1. I really liked a lot of the features the Trio head included, particularly the "course reversal" and "course intercept" feature. However, I have to admit that much of the information displayed in the controller was available in my GPS unit. Nevertheless, the display was good, but a bit hard to read in direct sunlight. (I had the fluorescent display) 2. Trio's altitude hold was not available when I purchased my unit. 3. My unit used the Navaid servo. I didn't care much for it, but the Navaid servo has worked very well for a lot of people. 4. I really liked the built-in Turn Coordinator and coordinating ball. 5. The Trio displayed my name on intial startup. Didn't make flying better, but it was so cool to see my name and tail number on the screen everytime I threw the switch. Trutrak 1. Trutrak servos are high quality, heavy duty, stepper motors. Heavier than the Navaid servo if you are concerned with every ounce going in the airplane. 2. Altitude Hold (Pitch Control) available via an Altrak system. Push the button and go. 3. The Digitrak (Roll Control) GPS/NAV mode is not as accurate as the GPS Steering available with the Trutrak's higher priced models, but it does a good job. 4. All Trutrak autopilots can be upgraded to a higher priced model, if you want to, for the difference in cost between the units. Based on cost alone, I think the scales tip in the direction of Trutrak. Trutrak just lowered the price of the units to $1,495 for the Digitrak, and $1,495 for the Altrak, which is almost a $300 savings from price of three months ago. See this link: http://www.affordablepanels.com/trutrak_autopilots.htm I have a Digiflight-II unit for my new RV-9A, but I think if I was deciding today, I would choose the Digitrak/Altrak combo. More bang for my buck. Regards, Fabian Lefler ----- Original Message ----- From: "charlie heathco" <cheathco(at)gvtc.com> Subject: RV-List: autopilot choices > > Looking thru archs I dont see anything recent. I have my 6a apart, just got anual and want to go ahead with inst posibly both wing leveler and alt hold. would like coments as to pref of tru tract or trio?? Charlie Heathco Boerne stage > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oldsfolks(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Subject: Re:Odyssey Battery
I ran my Odyssey down when I left the master on. I had to go to 50 amps for a bit on charge to get it to come back. It has done fine since & that was a couple of years ago. Good luck. Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor Charleston,Arkansas Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2005
From: Bill Dube <bdube(at)al.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: ODYSSEY BATTERY
It is dead. Replace it when you get ready to fly. Yes, it is possible you might be able to bring it back, but it isn't advisable. You would be much smarter to replace it. If you want it use the old battery for testing, but not flying, here is how to "fix" it: Put it on a 15 volt power supply limited at 2 amps. Leave it on for about 10 hrs, maybe a little more. Run it down to 11 volts with a landing light. Charge it back up with the 15 volt supply. Do this three or four times. It will either kill it or cure it. An inexpensive 15 volt, 2 amp power supply is a Toshiba laptop AC adapter. Get it on Ebay for about $10. Nice for "equalize" charging your replacement battery too. Don't leave it on the battery for more than 10 hours or so. Bill Dube' At 05:18 PM 8/1/2005, you wrote: > >Listers > I have a Odyssey PC 625 battery in my RV6A. My airplane isn't finished > yet, >it is still in my basement. I have been adjusting on my flaps, and left the >master switch on for about 2 weeks. My battery is dead now. I can't seem >to get >it back up to full charge. > The manual says to charge it at 10 amps for no more then 3 hours. I can't >get it to take charge. It is showing about 5 volts. > Does anybody know how to get this battery back to full charge? > Thanks > Jerry Davis Glen Carbon ,ILL > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Cimino" <jcimino(at)echoes.net>
Subject: Re: EAA 486, RV Forum KFZY Sept 9-10-11
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Received-SPF: none Dave, Don't you think you should give out the awards from last year's event before doing this years? I know I won't be attending. Jim Jim Cimino N7TL RV-8 S/N 80039 150+ Hours http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/ ----- Original Message ----- From: <RV6160hp(at)aol.com> Subject: RV-List: EAA 486, RV Forum KFZY Sept 9-10-11 > > OK so I was looking at the wromg month...DOOPhhh thanks for not flaming > me > > Just a friendly reminder...11th annual RV forum at KFZY, Oswego County NY > Starting Friday Sept 9th, Saturday the Technical forums and Sunday the fly > in pancake breakfast.... > > See www.eaachapter486.com for more info > > Regards > David McManmon > RV6 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6160hp(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 01, 2005
Subject: Re: EAA 486, RV Forum KFZY Sept 9-10-11
thanks Jim....sorry you won't be attending....I tired....I am sorry you have not recieved your award and that you did not connect with those in charge last year..........this year stick around for the banquet and you might get i then...did you clearly register last year....we seem to have way more planes ther ethen registrants......please reconsider...we are amatures and volunteers... respectfully David McManmon.. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2005
From: Bobby Hester <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net>
Subject: Garmin 296 USB?
Just got my Garmin 296 that I purchased thru Ebay. It came with the serial cable for trasfering information from my PC. I see that there is a USB cable available. Is the transfer time alot better with the USB cable? Is that just a regular USB cable, that I can pick up at Walmart? Got my Air Gizmo mount on the way -- Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2005
From: James Ochs <jochs(at)froody.org>
Subject: Re: Garmin 296 USB?
Hi Bobby, It is a regular usb cable, but the kind with the small connector on one end instead of the square one. USB is much faster than serial, especially if you have usb 2.0 Serial = 115,000 bits per second USB = 12Mbits / second (~12,000,000 bits per second) USB 2.0 = 480Mbits / second Here's a link to a page with pictures of the connectors... look about 1/2 way down the page for "mini usb 2.0 connector" http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/connecters.html You should be able to find these pretty easily at compusa / bestbuy / frys / radio shack etc... I love my 296... I use it everywhere I go... flying, driving, sailing... i had no idea how much use I would get out of that thing before I bought it! James Bobby Hester wrote: > >Just got my Garmin 296 that I purchased thru Ebay. It came with the >serial cable for trasfering information from my PC. I see that there is >a USB cable available. Is the transfer time alot better with the USB cable? >Is that just a regular USB cable, that I can pick up at Walmart? > >Got my Air Gizmo mount on the way > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Francis Malczynski" <ebbfmm(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ODYSSEY BATTERY
Date: Aug 02, 2005
Jerry, while building I accidentally discharged my Odyssey 625 down to nothing. I kept it on a 6 amp charge for over 24 hours and brought it all the way back. Ive been flying with that battery for over three years now with no problems. Good Luck Fran Malczynski RV-6 N594EF Olcott, NY ebbfmm(at)yahoo.com "Freedom is never more than one generatipon away from extinction."...Ronald Reagan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
asdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling2(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
Date: Aug 02, 2005
Xm music used to be included. Oh well. Shemp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Nafsinger" <nick(at)creteaviation.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report > > > $30 for the Basic and $50 for Everything. Add another $7 if you want > music. The prices are fixed for everything XM, Portable, Panel Mount, > doesn't matter. > > To see what features you get in each package look here: > http://www.xmradio.com/weather/av_service_pricing.html > > Now the disclamer. I don't work for XM, I'm just a VERY happy customer! > My inflight 396 report is darn near identical to Stu's except I flew in > from Western MN. Nexrad, Winds, everything where spot on. > > Nick > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report > > > How much are the monthly fees for accessing the weather services using > the 396? > > Rick > > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: Dave Durakovich <ddurakovich(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ODYSSEY BATTERY
Jerry, I just did the same thing with a PC680. Got back from Oshkosh to find the master on and the battery dead! It was left on for about 7 days, and all that was energized was the master solenoid, so I have no idea how long it was completely dead, but it was! I ended up buying a 10 amp marine type charger (a story in itself!), made for deep discharge batteries. Interesting note watching the charging cycle: it started at about 2 - 3 amps for the first 30 - 60 minutes, then gradually worked it's way up to about 8 amps, and then gradually back down until fully charged. I charged it on Saturday, and as of last night it was still at 12.8 volts, enough to energize the master solenoid and spin the starter (with no flywheel on). Hope this helps..... Dave *************************************************************************************************** Listers I have a Odyssey PC 625 battery in my RV6A. My airplane isn't finished yet, it is still in my basement. I have been adjusting on my flaps, and left the master switch on for about 2 weeks. My battery is dead now. I can't seem to get it back up to full charge. The manual says to charge it at 10 amps for no more then 3 hours. I can't get it to take charge. It is showing about 5 volts. Does anybody know how to get this battery back to full charge? Thanks Jerry Davis Glen Carbon ,ILL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: John Huft <rv8(at)lazy8.net>
Subject: OSH Winners
TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,UPPERCASE_25_50 autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.3 BIG Congratulations to the Oshkosh Award Winners!! OUTSTANDING WORKMANSHIP - KIT BUILT Klaus Heddergott, Mariposa, CA - RV-6, N419D Mark Robinson, Vista, CA - RV-9A, N249GM Dane Patterson, Newnan, GA - RV-8, N460DP Larry Feldhousen, Burlington, CO - RV-10, N104LJ BRONZE LINDY KIT BUILT Mark Phillips, Columbia, TN - RV-6A, N51PW Don Schmiesing, Granite Falls, WA - RV-8, N417DS John Stewart, Burlington, CO - RV-10, N104ME HOMEBUILTS SILVER LINDY RESERVE GRAND CHAMPION - KIT BUILT Gregory Gruninger, Jeffersonville, IN - RV-8, N7GC "Mean Streak" Way to go Greg!!! Also, congrats to Jon Ross whose RV8 proved to be the fastest RV in the Airventure Cup Race, Dayton to Oshkosh. We need more RVs next year! John Huft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Grenwis(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 02, 2005
Subject: Autopilot setup
I'd like some advice on how people have setup their Trio Avionics EZ Pilot. I have it installed in a 6A. The setup involves setting several gain parameters which control the rate of pull-in back to the center of the GPS track line. I wonder where other pilots have theirs set? I don't want to complain yet as it is likely my settings, but there are two things I don't like right now. My control stick twitches left and then right during level flight about once per second. The movement is jerky and the effect is to make me want to turn off the autopilot. But, the autopilot is great to have. Flying to Oshkosh, it was wonderful, but my position varied up to 0.15 miles left and right of the center line. That seems like too much. So help me out. Folks with the EZ Pilot, what are your gain settings for the <0.07 mile range, and for the next one up (<.25 mi)? I've reduced my gains to try to reduce the twitching, but that probably led to the 0.15 mile variation. Don't draw an unfavorable conclusion about the autopilot. I think its only problem is my setup, so I'm asking for help. Many thanks. Rick Grenwis N613G - RV6AQB - 90 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: "Bob C. " <flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
I talked to XM about the price being a little high for the "casual flyer" . . . and they said they understood that, and to keep watching for "more reasonable pricing"?! Bob Christensen RV-8 Bldr - SE Iowa On 7/31/05, Nick Nafsinger wrote: > > > $30 for the Basic and $50 for Everything. Add another $7 if you want > music. The prices are fixed for everything XM, Portable, Panel Mount, > doesn't matter. > > To see what features you get in each package look here: > http://www.xmradio.com/weather/av_service_pricing.html > > Now the disclamer. I don't work for XM, I'm just a VERY happy customer! > My inflight 396 report is darn near identical to Stu's except I flew in > from Western MN. Nexrad, Winds, everything where spot on. > > Nick > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report > > > How much are the monthly fees for accessing the weather services using > the 396? > > Rick > > > -- > > > -- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jason Sneed <n242ds(at)cox.net>
Subject: cleaning inverted oil system
Date: Aug 02, 2005
I have a christen inverted oil system install in my RV-6, I have noticed more and more oil on the belly lately, While reading the manual on the inverted oil system I noticed it says to flush the system with varsol every 300 hours. I have about 600 hours on the engine and it has not been flushed. Can anyone tell me the process or a way to reach the people that build the inverted oil system? Thanks, Jason ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jason Sneed <n242ds(at)cox.net>
Subject: Varsol
Date: Aug 02, 2005
Can someone tell me where to buy Varsol? Thanks, Jason ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Date: Aug 02, 2005
I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however, I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story. First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on. Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story. After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times. Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not. When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail. The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good. The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right, which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock. My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals. My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5 point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch. I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok. Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks. If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528 9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us. Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess. I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today. Ross Mickey N9PT (parts) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Nels Hanson Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to take off. Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower. This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank them for being there. So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out the way it did. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Randy Lervold" Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27 after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100' and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him ("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and other bruises and released a day or two later. He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed. Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back don't expect that for a few days. The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it. Randy Lervold www.rv-3.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "charlie heathco" <cheathco(at)gvtc.com>
Subject: Gettin off da pot
Date: Aug 02, 2005
autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.2 Well, I did it after lots of should I or shouldnt I, I have the EZ Pilot and the EZ-1 as well as the RV6 instal kit on order. Thanks to all who gave me input on it. Charlie Heathco ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)petroblend.com>
Subject: Re: Varsol
Date: Aug 02, 2005
Varsol, Stanasol, Stoddard solvent, mineral spirits, Naptha, all the same thing. Any auto parts store, Paint store, or Lube oil distributor Doug Rozendaal Lube Oil Distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Sneed" <n242ds(at)cox.net> Subject: RV-List: Varsol > > Can someone tell me where to buy Varsol? > > Thanks, > > Jason > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: linn walters <lwalters2(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Ross, welcome to the club! You have the distinction of joining the "1/2 outside loop on landing" club. I made the same maneuver in my Pitts at Sun-N-Fun a few years back. Like you, it was a learning experience (aren't they all?) and unlike you I didn't have insurance. That was OK with me. My Pitts was 13 years old at that point. My first (and only) year I had hull which cost an extra $1000. Fast forward 12 years ..... and I have a cool $12K in that 'bank in the sky' to fix my bird .... which I did. Funny (maybe not!) you mention the emotional state. It took me a long time to regain confidence in myself and my comfort region with crosswinds. The plane was the same, but I wasn't. Best of luck, Linn Ross Mickey wrote: > >I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the >pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank >Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out >of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards >of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger >and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given >by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however, >I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story. > >First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide >path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked >to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be >that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only >other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the >Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels >advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision >to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on. >Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story. > >After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours >and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a >holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other >planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the >ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had >already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske >assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel >stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged >around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered >slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times. >Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than >mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not. > >When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times >around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in >front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of >him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At >Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail >to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind >the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a >Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying >towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he >had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short >final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I >had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail. > >The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and >as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front >of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but >this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow >approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going >to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good. > >The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure >reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right, >which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was >the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock. >My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side >of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably >rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose >gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals. > >My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the >seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a >bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle >were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5 >point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be >replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch. > >I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok. >Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take >some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a >builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks. > >If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to >http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528 >9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do >some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly >and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and >his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their >Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of >Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us. > >Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess. >I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today. > >Ross Mickey >N9PT (parts) > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Nels Hanson >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account > >I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my >engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening >in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 >minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the >numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was >heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I >watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this >gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was >approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped >quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left >wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding >down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for >about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller >dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did >not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to >tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash >squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side >of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably >should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at >the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told >them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not >want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the >time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know >where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were >inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of >us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of >the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a >couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see >that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got >there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. >Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to >take off. > Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of >your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into >your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of >the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. >However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. > I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken >almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only >ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower. > This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I >had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some >burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated >for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy >out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank >them for being there. > So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who >flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out >the way it did. > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >"Randy Lervold" >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? > >I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a >restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the >scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27 >after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing >again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing >was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he >got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100' >and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway >but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very >soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped >over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him >("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and >not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and >other bruises and released a day or two later. > >He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will >likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. >He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and >especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The >anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed. > >Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the >plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart >Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop >struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in >front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once >he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back >don't expect that for a few days. > >The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I >have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor >into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it. > >Randy Lervold >www.rv-3.com > > > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: Bob J <rocketbob(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
About four years ago I was landing in close trail behind another airplane, at an altitude of about 20 feet I got into their wake turbulence. With full right aileron, I was still turning to the left. I was trying so hard to turn that I slightly released right stick pressure and slammed the stick to the stop to make sure I was hitting the stop. At that point I put in more right rudder, until I was straight and level again, and landed. This all happened in a matter of 2-3 seconds. Ever since then I've very keen on observing the touchdown point of the airplane in front of me and making sure that I stay out of their wake turbulence with my hand on the throttle ready to go around every time. Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying 600+ hours, F1 under const. On 8/2/05, linn walters wrote: > > Ross, welcome to the club! You have the distinction of joining the "1/2 > outside loop on landing" club. I made the same maneuver in my Pitts at > Sun-N-Fun a few years back. Like you, it was a learning experience > (aren't they all?) and unlike you I didn't have insurance. That was OK > with me. My Pitts was 13 years old at that point. My first (and only) > year I had hull which cost an extra $1000. Fast forward 12 years ..... > and I have a cool $12K in that 'bank in the sky' to fix my bird .... > which I did. Funny (maybe not!) you mention the emotional state. It > took me a long time to regain confidence in myself and my comfort region > with crosswinds. The plane was the same, but I wasn't. Best of luck, > Linn > > Ross Mickey wrote: > > > > >I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the > >pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank > >Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out > >of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards > >of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger > >and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given > >by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however, > >I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story. > > > >First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide > >path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked > >to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be > >that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only > >other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the > >Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels > >advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision > >to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on. > >Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story. > > > >After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours > >and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a > >holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other > >planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the > >ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had > >already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske > >assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel > >stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged > >around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered > >slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times. > >Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than > >mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not. > > > >When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times > >around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in > >front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of > >him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At > >Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail > >to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind > >the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a > >Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying > >towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he > >had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short > >final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I > >had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail. > > > >The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and > >as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front > >of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but > >this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow > >approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going > >to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good. > > > >The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure > >reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right, > >which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was > >the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock. > >My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side > >of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably > >rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose > >gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals. > > > >My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the > >seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a > >bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle > >were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5 > >point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be > >replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch. > > > >I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok. > >Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take > >some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a > >builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks. > > > >If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to > >http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528 > >9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do > >some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly > >and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and > >his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their > >Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of > >Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us. > > > >Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess. > >I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today. > > > >Ross Mickey > >N9PT (parts) > > > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >Nels Hanson > >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account > > > >I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my > >engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening > >in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 > >minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the > >numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was > >heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I > >watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this > >gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was > >approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped > >quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left > >wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding > >down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for > >about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller > >dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did > >not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to > >tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash > >squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side > >of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably > >should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at > >the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told > >them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not > >want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the > >time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know > >where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were > >inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of > >us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of > >the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a > >couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see > >that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got > >there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. > >Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to > >take off. > > Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of > >your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into > >your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of > >the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. > >However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. > > I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken > >almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only > >ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower. > > This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I > >had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some > >burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated > >for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy > >out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank > >them for being there. > > So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who > >flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out > >the way it did. > > > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > >"Randy Lervold" > >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? > > > >I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a > >restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the > >scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27 > >after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing > >again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing > >was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he > >got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100' > >and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway > >but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very > >soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped > >over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him > >("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and > >not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and > >other bruises and released a day or two later. > > > >He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will > >likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. > >He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and > >especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The > >anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed. > > > >Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the > >plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart > >Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop > >struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in > >front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once > >he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back > >don't expect that for a few days. > > > >The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I > >have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor > >into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it. > > > >Randy Lervold > >www.rv-3.com > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hull, Don" <Donald.C.Hull(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Date: Aug 02, 2005
Wow, Ross, thanks for sharing your story with us. I didn't make it to OSH this year, but from my past experiences, I can say every arrival at OSH or Sun'n Fun is different. With time, I'm sure your emotional pains will heal. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ross Mickey Subject: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh."... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: gert <gert.v(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
quite interestingly, your nose wheel does not appear to have bent. Ross Mickey wrote: > >I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the >pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank >Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out >of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards >of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger >and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given >by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however, >I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story. > >First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide >path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked >to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be >that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only >other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the >Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels >advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision >to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on. >Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story. > >After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours >and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a >holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other >planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the >ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had >already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske >assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel >stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged >around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered >slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times. >Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than >mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not. > >When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times >around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in >front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of >him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At >Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail >to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind >the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a >Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying >towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he >had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short >final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I >had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail. > >The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and >as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front >of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but >this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow >approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going >to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good. > >The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure >reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right, >which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was >the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock. >My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side >of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably >rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose >gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals. > >My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the >seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a >bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle >were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5 >point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be >replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch. > >I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok. >Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take >some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a >builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks. > >If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to >http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528 >9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do >some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly >and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and >his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their >Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of >Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us. > >Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess. >I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today. > >Ross Mickey >N9PT (parts) > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Nels Hanson >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account > >I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my >engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening >in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 >minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the >numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was >heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I >watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this >gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was >approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped >quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left >wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding >down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for >about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller >dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did >not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to >tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash >squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side >of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably >should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at >the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told >them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not >want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the >time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know >where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were >inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of >us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of >the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a >couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see >that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got >there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. >Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to >take off. > Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of >your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into >your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of >the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. >However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. > I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken >almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only >ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower. > This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I >had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some >burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated >for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy >out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank >them for being there. > So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who >flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out >the way it did. > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >"Randy Lervold" >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? > >I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a >restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the >scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27 >after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing >again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing >was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he >got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100' >and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway >but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very >soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped >over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him >("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and >not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and >other bruises and released a day or two later. > >He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will >likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. >He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and >especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The >anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed. > >Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the >plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart >Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop >struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in >front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once >he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back >don't expect that for a few days. > >The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I >have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor >into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it. > >Randy Lervold >www.rv-3.com > > > > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
I have an exercise for everyone. Go up with a buddy and fly in trail, at about 200 feet back from the lead, fly in the turbulence, it is an eye opener. I would not want to encounter this 10~20 feet off the ground when landing. When heading to OSH last year I got bored on the flight and purposely flew in the turbulence of the aircraft I was flying with. It is also interesting to come into the turbulence form the side and get just a few feet of the wing in it. Next thing you know you start turning to the ......right, I think, with out putting any control input in! This also gets your attention fast. If your not expecting it, it REALLY gets your attention. > >About four years ago I was landing in close trail behind another >airplane, at an altitude of about 20 feet I got into their wake >turbulence. With full right aileron, I was still turning to the left. > I was trying so hard to turn that I slightly released right stick >pressure and slammed the stick to the stop to make sure I was hitting >the stop. At that point I put in more right rudder, until I was >straight and level again, and landed. This all happened in a matter >of 2-3 seconds. Ever since then I've very keen on observing the >touchdown point of the airplane in front of me and making sure that I >stay out of their wake turbulence with my hand on the throttle ready >to go around every time. > >Regards, >Bob Japundza >RV-6 flying 600+ hours, F1 under const. > >On 8/2/05, linn walters wrote: > > > > Ross, welcome to the club! You have the distinction of joining the "1/2 > > outside loop on landing" club. I made the same maneuver in my Pitts at > > Sun-N-Fun a few years back. Like you, it was a learning experience > > (aren't they all?) and unlike you I didn't have insurance. That was OK > > with me. My Pitts was 13 years old at that point. My first (and only) > > year I had hull which cost an extra $1000. Fast forward 12 years ..... > > and I have a cool $12K in that 'bank in the sky' to fix my bird .... > > which I did. Funny (maybe not!) you mention the emotional state. It > > took me a long time to regain confidence in myself and my comfort region > > with crosswinds. The plane was the same, but I wasn't. Best of luck, > > Linn > > > > Ross Mickey wrote: > > > > > > > >I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the > > >pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank > > >Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out > > >of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards > > >of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger > > >and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given > > >by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however, > > >I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story. > > > > > >First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide > > >path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked > > >to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be > > >that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only > > >other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the > > >Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels > > >advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision > > >to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on. > > >Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story. > > > > > >After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours > > >and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a > > >holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other > > >planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the > > >ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had > > >already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske > > >assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel > > >stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged > > >around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered > > >slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times. > > >Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than > > >mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not. > > > > > >When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times > > >around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in > > >front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of > > >him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At > > >Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail > > >to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind > > >the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a > > >Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying > > >towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he > > >had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short > > >final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I > > >had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail. > > > > > >The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and > > >as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front > > >of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but > > >this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow > > >approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going > > >to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good. > > > > > >The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure > > >reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right, > > >which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was > > >the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock. > > >My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side > > >of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably > > >rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose > > >gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals. > > > > > >My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the > > >seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a > > >bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle > > >were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5 > > >point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be > > >replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch. > > > > > >I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok. > > >Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take > > >some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a > > >builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks. > > > > > >If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to > > >http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528 > > >9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do > > >some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly > > >and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and > > >his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their > > >Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of > > >Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us. > > > > > >Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess. > > >I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today. > > > > > >Ross Mickey > > >N9PT (parts) > > > > > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > >Nels Hanson > > >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account > > > > > >I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my > > >engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening > > >in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 > > >minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the > > >numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was > > >heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I > > >watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this > > >gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was > > >approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped > > >quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left > > >wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding > > >down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for > > >about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller > > >dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did > > >not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to > > >tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash > > >squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side > > >of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably > > >should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at > > >the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told > > >them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not > > >want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the > > >time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know > > >where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were > > >inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of > > >us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of > > >the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a > > >couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see > > >that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got > > >there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. > > >Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to > > >take off. > > > Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of > > >your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into > > >your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of > > >the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. > > >However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. > > > I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken > > >almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only > > >ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower. > > > This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I > > >had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some > > >burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated > > >for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy > > >out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank > > >them for being there. > > > So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who > > >flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out > > >the way it did. > > > > > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > >"Randy Lervold" > > >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? > > > > > >I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a > > >restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the > > >scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27 > > >after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing > > >again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing > > >was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he > > >got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100' > > >and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway > > >but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very > > >soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped > > >over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him > > >("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and > > >not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and > > >other bruises and released a day or two later. > > > > > >He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will > > >likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. > > >He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and > > >especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The > > >anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed. > > > > > >Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the > > >plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart > > >Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop > > >struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in > > >front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once > > >he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back > > >don't expect that for a few days. > > > > > >The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I > > >have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor > > >into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it. > > > > > >Randy Lervold > > >www.rv-3.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Date: Aug 02, 2005
>Ever since then I've very keen on observing the touchdown point of the airplane in front of me and making >sure that I stay out of their wake turbulence with my hand on the throttle ready to go around every time. I have pondered this very question. The only ways to avoid the wake is to land past it or wait for it to dissipate. Since I was instructed to land BEFORE the lead planes touchdown point, my only option would be to go around. Next time, that is what I will do. Next time, I will either be the lead plane landing long or a longer way back from the plane I am following. "Never Again" will I be the plane landing under another's wake. Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Date: Aug 02, 2005
>Didn't you have a few changes you wanted to make anyways. My canopy did have a crack in it....... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Date: Aug 02, 2005
>quite interestingly, your nose wheel does not appear to have bent. Look at picture 5. It was in an almost complete "C." We took it off and used Steve Meyers torch to heat it up and get it straight enough to be used for the transport home. Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)petroblend.com>
Subject: Attitude, was another crash
Date: Aug 02, 2005
Snip > > with crosswinds. The plane was the same, but I wasn't. Best of luck, > Linn > Linn, You are correct, you are not the same, you are better for the experience. I too am a "member of the club" and, I hope, better for it. There is lots of invincibility running around in the RV community. I had plenty of that attitude. My accident adjusted my attitude. I am not saying my attitude problem is cured, it never is, keeping attitude in check is a continuous battle when flying airplanes. It is especially difficult flying airplanes with performance like RV's or, worse, some of the cool airplanes that I fly. The RV flies so well and so easy that we start to believe that we are really good. That is B.S. Get this part here. Pilot skill is seldom the problem. Most airplanes crash because of attitude. Our attitude takes us to a place that our airplane can't get us out of, and then there is a crash. You don't believe that? Let me list some of my dead friends. Charlie Hillard, French Connection, Sonny Lovelace and Randy Drake (Red Barons) Jimmy Franklin, Bobby Younkin, Ian Groom, shall I continue? Does anyone think these guys were short on skill? Questioning our decision making is a good thing in aviation. This fighter pilot ego crap that we must mentally dominate my enemy by believing that we are the best in the world and no one can beat us is a great thing for defending the freedom of our country. We are trying to travel, have fun and live to fly another day. We need to use a Cockpit Resource Management model that goes like this: 1. acknowledge that we make errors. 2. trap the errors before they become problems. 3. mitigate the damage from the errors that get past step 2. Many people crash and do not change their attitudes. They can't even get to step 1. They won't admit that they make mistakes and change their behavior. They keep crashing until they are eliminated from the gene pool. The insurance companies will tell you that anyone who has crashed once is far more likely to crash again. I crashed my airplane because my ego was out of control and none of my friends took me aside to square me up. Shattering your kneecap squares you up. It changed my approach to flying. I still make mistakes, lots of them. I still wrestle to control my "fighter pilot" attitude. I try to accept counsel from my peers and offer it when I think their attitudes are getting dangerous. If we don't counsel our peers when they get out of hand, then we have blood on our hands when they get hurt. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: Mark Grieve <mark(at)macomb.com>
Subject: Re: Glad your injuries were not severe
Ross, I was sad to hear of your mishap at Oshkosh. We are all glad that your injuries were not severe. I don't know what your plans are but assume you will build or rebuild. I inherited some parts for an RV-6 empennage, mainly skins. You may have them if they would be of use. I don't know the history of the parts but they were included with a 7 empennage kit. There is no builder number for these parts and they are of no use to me. I also know where there is a finished horizontal stab. Let me know if I should start building a crate. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Date: Aug 02, 2005
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> Subject: RE: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report > > >>Ever since then I've very keen on observing the touchdown point of the > airplane in front of me and making >sure that I stay out of their wake > turbulence with my hand on the throttle ready to go around every time. > > I have pondered this very question. The only ways to avoid the wake is > to land past it or wait for it to dissipate. Since I was instructed to > land BEFORE the lead planes touchdown point, my only option would be to > go around. Next time, that is what I will do. Next time, I will either > be the lead plane landing long or a longer way back from the plane I am > following. "Never Again" will I be the plane landing under another's > wake. > > Ross Depending on the winds, I'd suggest that another option is to land on the upwind side of the runway. With even a 5 mph crosswind component, a 10 second spacing will let the lead aircraft's wake blow 75' or so downwind, which should give plenty of room, assuming the lead aircraft landed anywhere close to the centerline. This is also something to consider if you do formation takeoffs. If you're #2, make sure you're on the upwind side of lead during takeoff, 'cause there is some nasty turbulence on the downwind side of a low/slow RV. KB ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Autopilot setup
Grenwis(at)aol.com wrote: > > I'd like some advice on how people have setup their Trio Avionics EZ Pilot. > I have it installed in a 6A. The setup involves setting several gain > parameters which control the rate of pull-in back to the center of the GPS track line. > I wonder where other pilots have theirs set? I don't want to complain yet > as it is likely my settings, but there are two things I don't like right now. > My control stick twitches left and then right during level flight about once > per second. The movement is jerky and the effect is to make me want to turn > off the autopilot. But, the autopilot is great to have. Flying to Oshkosh, it > was wonderful, but my position varied up to 0.15 miles left and right of the > center line. That seems like too much. So help me out. Folks with the EZ > Pilot, what are your gain settings for the <0.07 mile range, and for the next one > up (<.25 mi)? I've reduced my gains to try to reduce the twitching, but that > probably led to the 0.15 mile variation. Don't draw an unfavorable > conclusion about the autopilot. I think its only problem is my setup, so I'm asking > for help. Many thanks. > > Rick Grenwis > N613G - RV6AQB - 90 hours Rick, I use settings of 1 and 2. The EZ-Pilot should be able to hold the plane to within 0.01 mile of course. I often see a deviation of 0.00! Here are a couple of things to consider: 1) Make absolutely sure there is NO slop in the servo connection to your aileron controls. You didn't mention how your servo is connected. Best way to eliminate any play in the system is to connect the servo to the aileron bellcrank in the wing. Also be sure the servo is mounted solidly. It would take only a tiny amount of play in the servo mount for the servo to overshoot neutral and begin hunting. 2) Call Trio and verify you have the latest software. There was a release a while back that *might* have effected a few units and *could* have caused behavior as you described. The current software should work flawlessly. 3) While unlikely, you may have a flaky servo. Be sure you confirm the above issues before suspecting the servo. The servo is usually a very reliable unit. Stay after it! The EZ-Pilot is a fantastic system and once you exorcise this bug you will be amazed at how well the unit can fly your plane. The guys at Trio are very serious about supporting their puppy so don't hesitate to get in touch with them. Sam Buchanan (RV-6, 680 hrs, 150 with the EZ-Pilot) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Saylor" <Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.com>
Subject: C-Frame Mod
Date: Aug 02, 2005
Stephanie, Are you thinking of this? The squeezer is foot controlled and actuates very slowly. http://www.aircraftersllc.com/classifieds/yoke.htm Please call if you'd like one. Dave Saylor AirCrafters LLC 831-722-9141 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephanie Marshall Subject: RV-List: C-Frame Mod I remember seeing a modification for the C-Frame that replaces the striker with a handle that is worked by either hydraulics or the Air Compressor. My memory is REALLY vague on this, does anyone know where I can find out more information on this?- -Thanks, Stephanie www.rv-8a.4t.com This electronic mail message is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This message, together with any attachment, may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, print, retain, copy, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender and delete all copies of this message. Thank you ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Date: Aug 02, 2005
Thanks for sharing, Ross! An incredible experience and thankfully from which you and aircraft are (will be) in condition to fly again. I will never forget the time I was taking off behind an RV-3 (and unfortunately did not think about the all the possibilities therein) after the SERFI at Evergreen, Al. The RV-3 was rolling approx 200 ft in front of me, when I started my take off roll in my Rv-6A. Everything was A OK and I lifted off attained approx 80 mph and was 15-20 ft in the air when the aircraft roll violently to the right. instinctively, I slammed the control stick to the left hitting the stops with no response , remember distinctly all that concrete filling the view - just had time to think "control failure?" - when the aircraft rapidly rolled back to the left (thanks Van) and I staggered away into the air with puckered seat cushion. Apparent cause was the prop stream of the preceding small RV-3 - don't even like to think what a larger aircraft/engine combination might have resulted in. Good luck on a rapid rebuild. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Matthews, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> Subject: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report > > I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the > pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank > Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out > of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards > of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger > and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given > by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however, > I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story. > > First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide > path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked > to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be > that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only > other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the > Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels > advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision > to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on. > Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story. > > After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours > and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a > holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other > planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the > ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had > already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske > assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel > stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged > around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered > slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times. > Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than > mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not. > > When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times > around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in > front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of > him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At > Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail > to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind > the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a > Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying > towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he > had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short > final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I > had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail. > > The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and > as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front > of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but > this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow > approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going > to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good. > > The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure > reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right, > which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was > the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock. > My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side > of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably > rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose > gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals. > > My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the > seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a > bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle > were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5 > point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be > replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch. > > I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok. > Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take > some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a > builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks. > > If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to > http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528 > 9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do > some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly > and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and > his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their > Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of > Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us. > > Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess. > I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today. > > Ross Mickey > N9PT (parts) > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Nels Hanson > Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account > > I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my > engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening > in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 > minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the > numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was > heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I > watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this > gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was > approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped > quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left > wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding > down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for > about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller > dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did > not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to > tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash > squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side > of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably > should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at > the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told > them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not > want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the > time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know > where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were > inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of > us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of > the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a > couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see > that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got > there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. > Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to > take off. > Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of > your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into > your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of > the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. > However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. > I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken > almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only > ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower. > This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I > had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some > burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated > for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy > out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank > them for being there. > So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who > flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out > the way it did. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > "Randy Lervold" > Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? > > I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a > restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the > scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27 > after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing > again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing > was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he > got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100' > and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway > but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very > soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped > over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him > ("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and > not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and > other bruises and released a day or two later. > > He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will > likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. > He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and > especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The > anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed. > > Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the > plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart > Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop > struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in > front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once > he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back > don't expect that for a few days. > > The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I > have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor > into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it. > > Randy Lervold > www.rv-3.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Attitude, was another crash
Date: Aug 02, 2005
> >> > Snip > >> >> with crosswinds. The plane was the same, but I wasn't. Best of >> luck, >> Linn >> >> > > Linn, > > You are correct, you are not the same, you are better for the > experience. > > I too am a "member of the club" and, I hope, better for it. There > is lots > of invincibility running around in the RV community. I had plenty > of that > attitude. My accident adjusted my attitude. I am not saying my > attitude > problem is cured, it never is, keeping attitude in check is a > continuous > battle when flying airplanes. It is especially difficult flying > airplanes > with performance like RV's or, worse, some of the cool airplanes > that I fly. > The RV flies so well and so easy that we start to believe that we > are really > good. That is B.S. > > Get this part here. Pilot skill is seldom the problem. Most > airplanes > crash because of attitude. Our attitude takes us to a place that our > airplane can't get us out of, and then there is a crash. > > You don't believe that? Let me list some of my dead friends. Charlie > Hillard, French Connection, Sonny Lovelace and Randy Drake (Red > Barons) > Jimmy Franklin, Bobby Younkin, Ian Groom, shall I continue? Does > anyone > think these guys were short on skill? > > Questioning our decision making is a good thing in aviation. This > fighter > pilot ego crap that we must mentally dominate my enemy by believing > that we > are the best in the world and no one can beat us is a great thing for > defending the freedom of our country. > > We are trying to travel, have fun and live to fly another day. We > need to > use a Cockpit Resource Management model that goes like this: > 1. acknowledge that we make errors. > 2. trap the errors before they become problems. > 3. mitigate the damage from the errors that get past step 2. > > Many people crash and do not change their attitudes. They can't > even get to > step 1. They won't admit that they make mistakes and change their > behavior. > They keep crashing until they are eliminated from the gene pool. The > insurance companies will tell you that anyone who has crashed once > is far > more likely to crash again. > > I crashed my airplane because my ego was out of control and none of my > friends took me aside to square me up. Shattering your kneecap > squares you > up. It changed my approach to flying. I still make mistakes, lots > of them. > I still wrestle to control my "fighter pilot" attitude. I try to > accept > counsel from my peers and offer it when I think their attitudes are > getting > dangerous. > > If we don't counsel our peers when they get out of hand, then we > have blood > on our hands when they get hurt. > > Tailwinds, > Doug Rozendaal > > The ones that amaze me are the guys who are incapable of learning from someone else's misfortune. They have to experience it themselves before they can learn from it. If it didn't happen to them, they either ignore it, or find some way to convince themselves that they are immune to a similar event. You all know the kind of pilot I'm talking about - the guys who persist in scud running, despite all the scud running accidents. The guys who teach themselves how to fly formation, even though they hear about experienced formation pilots that have accidents. The ones who do low altitude aerobatics, etc. We need to be able to learn from other people's mistakes. We won't live long if we have to make them all ourselves. The free and open exchange of stories like Ross Mickey's mishap are vital to helping other pilots learn. Thanks Ross for telling your story. Good luck with the rebuild. Fly safe, Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Subject: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Date: Aug 02, 2005
Ross - I'm glad you are ok. My RV-8 and I made our first trip to OSH together last week. The story of my arrival started very similar to yours, except they closed the field for the night with about 15 of us holding over the lakes, and suggested we go to Fond du lac. We did, in one big, congested pile with no additional ATC control. The temp Fondu du lac tower was not opened yet. It was very crowded, and I found myself fighting the wake of the C170 (?) in front of me on final. Fortunately, we were still fairly high and 75-80 knots, so I had enough energy to fight it. In the end I stayed high and landed long, over the C170 and 3 other aircraft on the first half of the runway. Anyway, I learned from that, and your experience drives it home. We hear a lot of advice about going into OSH and SNF, etc, but I don't remember being reminded of the dangers of wake turbulence. Thanks for sharing the details. Best of luck on your rebuild or next project. - Larry Bowen, RV-8, 119 Hrs Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ross Mickey > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 4:09 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report > > > I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, > unfortunately, am the pilot of the "plane that crashed at > Oshkosh." I first want to thank Nels and the other > extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out of my > plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the > shards of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to > imitate a badger and dig my way out if they had not lifted > the tail. The accounts given by Nels and Randy pretty much > say it all. Since I am writing, however, I may as well > emphasize some stuff and embellish the story. > > First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a > steeper glide path. I say "may" because I don't know if I > would of still been rocked to the point of having my wing > touch even then. The difference would be that the wing would > have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only other > way I could have avoided it would have been to go around > after the Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. > This is where Nels advice is right on. I did have about > 15-30 seconds to make a decision to go around after the > Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on. > Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story. > > After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 > flight hours and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these > planes!!!), I entered a holding pattern over the two lakes > south of Ripon with 15-30 other planes. We were holding > because the airport was closed due to the ground being so > soggy that they could not get the planes that had already > arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske > assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an > extra fuel stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of > occurrence, I slogged around the lakes for over an hour. > Interestingly enough, I encountered slight turbulence from > the airplane I was following about 4 times. > Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker > minds than mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, > sadly, did not. > > When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple > of times around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from > Ripon. The plane in front of me broke off when a large high > wing swooped down in front of him. That meant I was > following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At Fiske, he > was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail > to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable > distance behind the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we > got closer, I noticed a Cherokee high and to my right. I > kept him in sight as he was flying towards Runway 9 also. > From the controller chatter, I surmised that he had aborted > his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short > final, the controller did sequence him in front of me > probably because I had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail. > > The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few > times and as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on > the runway in front of me. I slowed as much as I could, > staying well away from stall but this did end up shallowing > my final approach. I have made many shallow approached > before so my last good thought was that the landing was going > to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good. > > The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was > pure reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the > stick right, which caused my left aileron to deflect > downward. This down aileron was the first thing to hit. I > then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock. > My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the > left side of the runway and if the conditions were dryer > would have probably rolled out there and stopped. Since the > ground was so soggy, my nose gear stuck in the mud and I > slowly went head over heals. > > My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense > pressure of the seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point > for my crotch strap was a bolt through two pieces of aluminum > angle. These two pieces of angle were bent about 3/8th of an > inch. I believe what saved me was my 5 point Hooker Harness > and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be replaced but > it only deflected down about 1 inch. > > I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok. > Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, > will take some time. It will take me awhile to change from > being a flyer to a builder and every time I look at my > airplane parts, my heart breaks. > > If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and > disassembly, go to > http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=187571891 > 09.7374528 > 9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably > have to do some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole > url. The disassembly and loading of the plane was only > possible because Wally Anderson and his four housemates spent > two mornings and two evenings of their Airventure experience > doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of Meyers > Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us. > > Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess. > I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today. > > Ross Mickey > N9PT (parts) > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Nels Hanson > Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account > > I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH > with my engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there > last Sat. evening in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes > coming in on 9 for about 15 minutes. The tower was telling > this particular RV to "land on the numbers". He mentioned > this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was heavy. I > thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I > watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) > that this gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his > airplane. The plane was approx.15-20 ft. high above the > runway when the left wing dropped quickly and struck the > runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left wing. The > nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding > down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed > sod for about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose > wheel and propeller dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on > it's back very slowly. It did not "cartwheel". The pilot was > trapped in the plane, that was easy to tell the way it lay. I > radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash squad. I > unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south > side of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. > I probably should not have done what I did next but I did it > anyway. I looked at the incoming planes and saw them > climbing. Assuming the tower had told them to go around I > sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not want to > see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About > the time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there > too. Don't know where they came from. We dove under the wing > to see how many people were inside. The pilot (only > passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of us lifted > the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out > of the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up > and had a couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I > was so happy to see that he wasn't seriously injured. About > that time the "officials" got there and hurried us out of > there. I was glad to get back to my plane. > Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back > to 18 to take off. > Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the > pilot of your plane. You need to fly it and not let the > busyness of OSH get into your head. I feel the intensity of > the close arrivals and intensity of the controller's voice > had a very large part to play in this accident. > However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. > I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. > It has taken almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it > often. We are the only ones that should be flying our planes, > not the tower. > This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had > broken out. I had already made my mind up as I ran across the > runway to take some burns if it came to that. The other guys > who showed up never hesitated for an instance before diving > down to the broken cockpit to get that guy out of there ASAP. > I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank them for > being there. > So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from > someone who flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm > just glad it turned out the way it did. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > "Randy Lervold" > Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? > > I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him > directly at a restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got > the whole story. Here's the scoop as he relayed it to us at > dinner... he was on short final for 27 after holding for > about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing again > they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. > Spacing was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the > exact altitude, but he got hit with some sort of down draft > or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100' > and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto > the runway but veered to the left. When he went off the left > edge into the very soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose > wheel caught and he flipped over instantly. He has an AOA Pro > and said it never screamed at him ("angle, angle, push") > which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and not a stall. > He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and other > bruises and released a day or two later. > > He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The > plane will likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage > back and rebuild it. > He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury > and especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point > harness). The anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed. > > Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him > disassemble the plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop > the engine off at Bart Lalonde's shop on the drive back to > Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop struck, in fact he said he > could see the bent tips still rotating in front of him as he > rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once he gets > back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive > back don't expect that for a few days. > > The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was > insured, whew! I have never understood why Van's doesn't > design a crotch strap anchor into ALL the models. If you > don't have one please consider adding it. > > Randy Lervold > www.rv-3.com > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: mark phipps <skydive80020(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Mickey, I have a completed and unused vertical stabilizer from a 6, you are welcome to have it if you need it. Mark Phipps, N242RP (Gypsy Spirit) Ross Mickey wrote: I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however, I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story. First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on. Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story. After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times. Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not. When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail. The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good. The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right, which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock. My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals. My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5 point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch. I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok. Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks. If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528 9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us. Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess. I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today. Ross Mickey N9PT (parts) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Nels Hanson Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to take off. Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower. This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank them for being there. So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out the way it did. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Randy Lervold" Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27 after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100' and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him ("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and other bruises and released a day or two later. He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed. Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back don't expect that for a few days. The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it. Randy Lervold www.rv-3.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2005
From: "Richard Leach" <papadaddyo(at)verizon.net>
Subject: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Ross, very glad you are virtually unharmed. Thanks for the report, it is good to here from the horses mouth. We need to all take advice from these experiences. Rick Leach RV-10 40397 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ross Mickey Subject: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however, I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story. First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on. Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story. After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times. Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not. When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail. The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good. The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right, which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock. My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals. My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5 point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch. I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok. Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks. If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528 9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us. Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess. I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today. Ross Mickey N9PT (parts) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Nels Hanson Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15 minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane. Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to take off. Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident. However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane. I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower. This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank them for being there. So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out the way it did. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Randy Lervold" Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27 after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100' and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him ("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and other bruises and released a day or two later. He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it. He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed. Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back don't expect that for a few days. The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it. Randy Lervold www.rv-3.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>
Subject: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
Date: Aug 02, 2005
The big question for Ross: is there anything WE can do to help you get bck in the air. Hey, we can raise barns and build houses...perhaps we can pitch in and help you with the rebuild. Bob Collins St. Paul > > I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am > the pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Francis Malczynski" <ebbfmm(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Autopilot setup
Date: Aug 03, 2005
My Trio Autopilot set up is where the servo is under the copilot seat. I am also using the top holes on the crank arms on each end of the control rod which I understand gives the most sensitivity and which Trio recommends. The settings I use are the default settings and I do not get any stick twitching at one-second intervals and the unit tracks beautifully. Fine CRS QLT = 1 and Fine TRK QLT = 2 Fran Malczynski RV-6 N594EF Olcott, NY ebbfmm(at)yahoo.com "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."...Ronald Reagan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Grenwis(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 03, 2005
Subject: autopilot setup
Thanks to all for the advice. I haven't solved the puzzle yet, but I got to see an example of customer service done right. Within an hour of posting, I got a call from Jerry at Trio. He said what I described was not normal and they'd help me get it fixed no matter what it took. It is nice to hear a company back what they sell to that degree, so if you are on the fence, factor that into your thinking, along with the good words of frequent list contributors. My servo is mounted in the wing with an 8" rod connecting it to the bellcrank. Slop seems unlikely, but I'll be checking on that today. I'll also check about the software version. Even if I have to pull out the servo and the head, Trio said they'd check them out and fix them right away. Thanks to all for the help Rick Grenwis N613G - RV6A - 90 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2005
From: "Tim Bryan" <flyrv6(at)bryantechnology.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Autopilot setup
Francis, would you by chance have pictures of this install? I am about to install mine in the same location and have not yet formulated a plan. Thanks Tim Bryan RV-6 N616TB DNA -------Original Message------- From: Francis Malczynski Date: 08/03/05 03:25:37 Subject: RV-List: RE: Autopilot setup My Trio Autopilot set up is where the servo is under the copilot seat. I am also using the top holes on the crank arms on each end of the control rod which I understand gives the most sensitivity and which Trio recommends. The settings I use are the default settings and I do not get any stick twitching at one-second intervals and the unit tracks beautifully. Fine CRS QLT 1 and Fine TRK QLT 2 Fran Malczynski RV-6 N594EF Olcott, NY ebbfmm(at)yahoo.com "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."...Ronald Reagan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2005
From: joelrhaynes(at)aol.com
Subject: capacitance probes and Dynon engine monitor
Listers, I have Van's capacitance fuel probes in my wings and will shortly be installing the new Dynon engine monitor. I'm interested in what others are using for a capacitance to voltage converter to link the probes to the monitor. Thanks Joel Haynes 7a - canopy in progress Bozeman, MT ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: C-Frame Mod
Date: Aug 03, 2005
From: "Stephanie Marshall" <smarshall(at)enid.org>
WOW! That wasn't it but that might end up being IT! :-) Stephanie -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Saylor Subject: RE: RV-List: C-Frame Mod Stephanie, Are you thinking of this? The squeezer is foot controlled and actuates very slowly. http://www.aircraftersllc.com/classifieds/yoke.htm Please call if you'd like one. Dave Saylor AirCrafters LLC 831-722-9141 -----Original Message-----


July 20, 2005 - August 03, 2005

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