Rocket-Archive.digest.vol-ae
August 05, 2000 - February 05, 2001
Im about ready to close up the tail... have the wires pulled and the
baggage compartment in.
I did make up a new mirror image of the battery holder and will install them
soon...
No need for you to fret over that.
The ELT bracket fit in the next bay back with an angle brackett rivited to
the floor..
No problem there...
Now if you would at your leasure send me that aeroflash power supply for
$85.00. I will order the light from Vans..
I have built a small platform to fit on the longerons between the slits where
the rudder cables come into the fuselage for the PS.
The new wishbone tailwheel from Ca. arrived and that will work just right. It
will weigh 6 lbs...
Also... Pleeze send along the aileron push rods that you have on the shelf
and dont know who they belong to.. I will be working on the wings shortly..
I will send a check directly or
If you are able to take a credit card.... Pleeze use this visa no...
4190 0043 5045 9487
Exp dt 05/03
Please keep this in your files for any future purchases...
Thanks for now Larry #0001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
Hay Lary can all on the Rocket list use that # for ordering parts.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Larry:
You posted you card info to the entire internet. Better cancel that card
pronto! DOH!!!
I'll get a PS to you, and you can send me a check. Let me know how long it
holds up.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
I got my fuse kit coming....thanks to Larry.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop(at)hotmail.com> |
Hey Mark,
I'd like to order a complete F-1 Rocket kit.
Just charge it to Larry's card.
He said it was o.k----Honest.
8
)
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
by mail.eaze.net with SMTP; 5 Aug 2000 19":24:48.-0000(at)matronics.com
Mark,
If there's any available credit left on Larry's card put me down for one of
the carbon fiber spinners.
Doug
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop(at)hotmail.com> |
>From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
>Reply-To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Tail Strobe
>Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 15:29:47 EDT
>
8
)
>
> Rick >>
>
>And that would make 4...Dang -- Ol' Larry sure has a lot of pals! I didn't
>expect this sudden upturn in business! Did you also want the 325HP Lycon
>motor like the other three guys? I can probably get a better price ordering
>that many.
>
>Cheers
>Mark
>
Mark,
After long and considerate thought-yes please include the 325 Lycon.
Also, could you include an engraved stainless plate to go inside of the
fuse, next to the canopy to read " to Larry, without whom this plane would
not be possible" !!!!
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gummos" <tg1965(at)linkline.com> |
Guys,
Who needs friends, when you have the Rocket-List and Larry's Card Info.
Tom
P.S. I need all the fairings that Larry's card will support. :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B. Riesen" <briesenjr(at)prodigy.net> |
"Rocket-List Digest List"
| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/04/00 |
please remove my name and e-mail address from your mailing list. Thank
you..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Credit card F-up.. |
Okay guys... Just checking... The card is now canceled and I am
embarrassed...
If I didnt know what a group of straight shooters you guys were, I would
really be worried.... You are right I meant for it to go to Mark and that
even was a mistake...
Oh well the F-1 #0001 is coming along good.
LKDaudt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | What a bunch of jokers.. |
I read all the replys, You guys are really funny.... but just think, What a
way to generate buisiness..
Mark, You should be set for years HUH...
All seriousness aside,,, Thanks for the concern,,, You too John.
LKD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack" <jnchodge(at)earthlink.net> |
Mark, I don't see that $85 Aeroflash PS in you catalog, is that another
error by LKDAUDT? Jack jnchodge(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 8/6/00 12:22:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
jnchodge(at)earthlink.net writes:
<< Mark, I don't see that $85 Aeroflash PS in you catalog, is that another
error by LKDAUDT? Jack jnchodge(at)earthlink.net >>
Hi Jack:
As I posted before, combining the Aeroflash PS with the Whelen strobe is not
recommended by the folks at Aeroflash. So, I didn't post the PS as a separate
item. That being said, I can sell you the PS for your own purposes.
I'm pestering the Aeroflash folks weekly for a tail nav/strobe unit, but I
wouldn't ask you to wait for this to happen.
Rog!!
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Soldering d-sub connectors |
This topic has hit several list-server conversations over the
past week or so . . . here's a new comic book on the technique
I use . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/dsubs/d_solder.html
I'll publish an alternative (an easier) technique using paste
solder . . . as soon as our stocking supply is in hand and available
from our website catalog.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dany A. Pennington" <DanyPennington(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Purchase of an F-1 Rocket |
I am interested in either; 1.) Purchasing a completed F-1 Rocket, or 2.)
Purchasing a kit, engine, prop, and all other accessories and hiring a
professional to build/assemble the aircraft.
Does anyone have any advise on either of these options? Does anyone have
any experience in hiring professional assistance in building an F-1 Quick
Build kit?
Any help or advise would be appreciated.
Dany Pennington
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Credit card F-up.. |
Well you all must be pretty straight as I suspected... The last charge was on
the 2nd...
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Purchase of an F-1 Rocket |
In regards to purchasing a complete and flying F1 your out of luck. The
first one should be finished this week, but I dont the owner will want to
sell it. There will be several more yet this year. But I think you need to
check out team rockets web site and look at the list of builders assistance
centers. They will build one for you or talk to Mark Fredricks and see if he
knows of anyone looking to build a F1 for someone.
chris wilcox
f1 kit 000
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harry Paine <hpaine(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | headrest bars For Sale |
I am having made up a headrest bar for the crossover member, it will be
about 8-9" high and wide depending on how it is cut. It wil be made of 4130
chrome moly 1" dia .065 wall. It has to be mandrel bend by a tubing shop.
This is a must item for backseaters with weak knees or lead butt. $40.00 to
the first four people.
Harry Paine
1490 24th st
Oceano Calif 93455
805-481-2524 nites
805-922-5395 ext 13 days
PS this is not theis is not this is not a roll bar!!!!!!!!
you will have to do your own welding
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Aileron Balancing |
Rocketeers,
Anyone know if the ailerons actually get balanced after painting? I see the
plans have a dimension of 45 3/8" for the length of the water pipe. Is this
one of those close enough things or is there a final balance procedure later
that I haven't run accross yet?
Aloha,
Russ
Maui
HRII #139
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balancing |
Just read the archives and it sounds like you put in the pipe and call it
good. Forever.
Russ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>I had the 'fox outside today working on the flaperons
>and a car stopped in the driveway, (nothing unusual so far).
>A lady got out and had ID around her neck for The Indianapolis
>Star, the local newspaper. (this is where the unusual part comes in).
>She said she had seen the plane in the garage last tuesday and
>that they want to do a story on it! I told her ok. She is going
>to contact me about setting up an appointment. I thought I would
>explain about the EAA and this list being a great help to me.
>What do you guys think? Has anyone on the list been through this before?
I quit speaking to mediatypes about 10 years ago after this
crowning touch on mis-representing "the news:"
Dee and I were out flying one cool and smooth day at lunchtime
at the little airport we used to own. While landing, I noticed
a large, obviously non-amateur camera set up on a tripod out in
the grass and panning my landing. Needless to say I was more than
extra mindful of doing a good job. By the time we taxied around
to the hangar, reporter and cameraguy were hoofing it across the
field to talk to us.
Seems newspaper headlines for that morning spoke of "Six near
misses" in Wichita over the past year. What they wanted from me
was, "my reaction" to this frigntening revelation and, "what do you
think the FAA should do about it?"
How do you explain a very complex set of facts involving
pilot responsability, limitations of government owned
facilities and personel, and limits imposed by the laws
of physics and the current state of the art in anti-collision
technology. . . . and squeeze it into a 1 minute or less?
What appeared on the 6:00 o'clock news was, "local pilot
sez FAA's equipment broke and airline passengers are doomed."
What they used from my interview was two sound bytes
pulled out of context that appeared to support the
premise of their "news blurp".
Since that time, I've declined to speak to anyone from the
so called "news" media. When asked, I tell them, "because
you never get it right."
Obviously, an in-depth feature story is different than trying
to explain physics of the universe to to a wild-eyed,
sensationalist reporter. BUT . . . there are still risks.
I'd recommend that you agree to support the piece. Heaven
knows that we can use all the positive publicity we can
get. Try to extract a promise from the reporter that you
are allowed to proof the FINAL article before it goes to
print. The pitfalls are that while your project may be the
leading particular of the article, someone ELSE may decide
to provide background about a couple of accidents involving
amateur built aircraft. While the intent may be well-meaning,
the result could be that your wife gets piles of condolance
letters suggesting that she keep your life insurance paid up,
"your gonna need it lady." Amateur built aviation doesn't need
that kind of exposure. The only way to avoid this is to
get personally involved in the whole production effort for
the piece. Left to their own devices, media reporters and
writers are dismal purveyors of fact. Give the reporter
a couple of issues of Sport Aviation to read.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Gretz <warrengretz(at)gretzaero.com> |
list-aviation ,
list-avionics ,
list-ez ,
list-glasair ,
list-lancair ,
list-rocket
| Subject: | Heated pitot tubes |
Hello builders,
I currently have a large stock of Heated Pitot Tubes in the popular
PH502-12 CR (formaly AN5812) and the AN5814 which has a heated static
source built in to it. Both of these pitot tubes are 12 volt.
I also have heated pitot tube mounting bracket kits for the above pitot
tubes.
There are other items that may be of interest to you for your project.
To see the above mentioned pitot tubes and mouting brackets and all the
rest of my products, look at my website at
http://www.gretzaero.com
You may contact me by phone in the evenings and on weekends. You may
also send me your order by way of my website.
Warren Gretz
Gretz Aero
303-770-3811
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fouga434(at)aol.com |
THE FINAL WORD AND PROOF READING APPROVAL SHOULD BE YOURS THE REPORTERS HAVE
A FUNNY WAY OF TWISTING THINGS SEEN IT MANY TIMES IN AVIATION AND CRIMINAL
CASES OF WHICH I HAD FIRST HAND FACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF
NICK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | B & C Specialty Web Site? |
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Ludwig"
>
>Have been unable to locate the B & C Specialty web site. Does one exist?
>
>- Bill in Tucson
Yes . . .
They have a work-in-progress at:
http://www.BandCspecialty.com
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Mac Servo/Switch Question... |
> A quick question for those in the know. Im wiring the Mac Trim serve
>that is on my elevator to my Infinity control stick and have a bit of a
>question...!! The servo has 5 wires comming out of it: 2 control the
>forward/backward (up/down) movement of the trim servo screw..these are both
>white in color. The other 3, Blue/Green/and Orange connect into the
position
>indicator to indicate servo movement. The control stick that I am using
has
>3 wires (from the coolie hat control) that control pitch trim. The middle
>wire (and center postion on the switch) is a ground (black wire) The other
>two wires are Brown and Solid Blue and control up down movement. My
question
>is how does the servo get 12V power? I have wired everything per the plans
>of both the Mac servo and the control grip. I have checked the switches and
>wires with a volt/ohm meter and connections are good. The serve motor moves
>when directly attached to the battery. The only 12V input to the system is
>the Red/white stripped wire comming from the position indicator (light).
>Obviously I am missing something in the wiring setup or some additional part
>is required. I know it doesnt work because it isn't getting any 12V
>power.....just wondering how it is supposed to get that power or if maybe
the
>control stick is not compatible with the MAC servo. As always thanks ahead
>of time for your responses. Take care and happy building/flying!!!
MAC uses a permanent magnet motor where direction of rotation is determined
by polarity of the applied voltage . . . I've complained to MAC folks
at OSH booth many times about the two WHITE wires . . . they could be
different colors where on color is (+) extend and (+) retract . . . I
could put out ACCURATE wiring diagrams for their product. Two white wires
just doesn't cut . . .
Gunching aside, the trim swich in an Infinity grip will not directly
interface with a MAC servo. MAC sells a "relay deck" for this purpose.
You can also use a two pole, double throw, center off (on)-off-(on) rocker
switch to directly drive the servo's PM motor. The wiring with a
relay deck is shown at . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/trim.pdf
If you want to build your own relay deck, two small relays
wired as shown in . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/trim2.pdf
will do the trick.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Sizing the Stick |
I bought a Rocket and the Control Stick is a bit on the short side, I have
my elevator trim buttons on the top of the stick and my hand sits over the
top of the stick especially when pulling G's (not good to get upside down
and have full up elevator in then get right side up, talking about pulling
G's). I am going to replace the stick with one that is taller to keep me
from doing this again and was wondering if there were any rules of thumb to
use that would get me to the right height on the stick.
Thanks,
Ernest Hale
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Sizing the Stick |
If it hits any thing at full travel it's to long.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sizing the Sticks |
In a message dated 8/23/00 8:29:16 AM Central Daylight Time,
ehale@cheyenne-enviro.com writes:
<< I bought a Rocket and the Control Stick is a bit on the short side, I have
my elevator trim buttons on the top of the stick and my hand sits over the
top of the stick especially when pulling G's (not good to get upside down
and have full up elevator in then get right side up, talking about pulling
G's). I am going to replace the stick with one that is taller to keep me
from doing this again and was wondering if there were any rules of thumb to
use that would get me to the right height on the stick.
Thanks,
Ernest Hale >>
Hi Earnest:
Looks like you've turned into a G Junkie! Congratulations!
The F1 uses a front stick bent same as the rear. This allows the use of a
full length stick with no panel interference, with as many buttons on the
grip as you need. You can do this same thing with your HR if desired.
Rear stick caveat: Seems some of the folks we take up are not quite used to
the light control pressures associated with our ships, especially in pitch,
when flying dual. You might want to remove some of the leverage from the back
seat by cutting that stick down a considerable amount -- maybe 4" or so. This
mod helps move the rear stick out of the "wing removal lever" category.
Cheers
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rodney Hill" <thunderrod(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sizing the Stick |
Ernest,
after reading your request regarding G-Forces and the Rocket control stick
arrangement, I remembered sitting in the Aviat Factory's Pitts S1-11 (AKA
"Super Stinker") prototype. The arrangement it had was a control stick
shaped in an inverted "U" at the top of the stick. You could retain a nice
light grip on the stick, and still not have your hand slip off the top
during "outside maneuvers".
Food for thought?
Rod Hill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Hale" <ehale@cheyenne-enviro.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 6:26 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: Sizing the Stick
<ehale@Cheyenne-Enviro.com>
>
> I bought a Rocket and the Control Stick is a bit on the short side, I have
> my elevator trim buttons on the top of the stick and my hand sits over the
> top of the stick especially when pulling G's (not good to get upside down
> and have full up elevator in then get right side up, talking about pulling
> G's). I am going to replace the stick with one that is taller to keep me
> from doing this again and was wondering if there were any rules of thumb
to
> use that would get me to the right height on the stick.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ernest Hale
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larry laporte <llapo(at)dmv.com> |
please un-subscribe to all mail list thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Foelker David J LtCol 50FTS/ADO <david.foelker(at)columbus.af.mil> |
| Subject: | RE: Czech-List: Unsubscribe |
Please unsubscribe me from Czech-List.
V/R,
David Foelker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Foelker David J LtCol 50FTS/ADO <david.foelker(at)columbus.af.mil> |
| Subject: | RV-List: RE: Czech-List: Unsubscribe |
--> RV-List message posted by: Foelker David J LtCol 50FTS/ADO
Please unsubscribe me from Czech-List.
V/R,
David Foelker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larry laporte <llapo(at)dmv.com> |
| Subject: | RV4-List: (no subject) |
--> RV4-List message posted by: larry laporte
please un-subscribe to all mail list thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Foelker David J LtCol 50FTS/ADO <david.foelker(at)columbus.af.mil> |
| Subject: | RV4-List: RE: Czech-List: Unsubscribe |
--> RV4-List message posted by: Foelker David J LtCol 50FTS/ADO
Please unsubscribe me from Czech-List.
V/R,
David Foelker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larry laporte <llapo(at)dmv.com> |
| Subject: | RV-List: (no subject) |
--> RV-List message posted by: larry laporte
please un-subscribe to all mail list thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MBragg001(at)cs.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/24/00 |
Please unsubscribe me from czech- list
M. Bragg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Knight <knightair(at)lv.rmci.net> |
| Subject: | Knight Upholstery for Rocket |
Rocket Builders:
I have moved to Las Vegas. Please note my new telephone number and e-mail
address.
I have been in the upholstery business for 28 years and have been making
upholstery products for kitplanes for 16 years. I have interior kits
available for the Harmon Rocket. I also have cabin covers and other items.
I am the supplier of upholstery products for several kitplane manufacturers.
A list of other kitplane interior products available upon request.
For more information, call Knight Aircraft Interiors, Inc., at (702)
207-6681 or e-mail me at knightair(at)lv.rmci.net. If you e- mail for
information, please mention either "Knight" or "Upholstery" in your
reference line so I can give your request my immediate attention. Photos
available upon request.
Sincerely,
KNIGHT AIRCRAFT INTERIORS, INC.
"Fly by Knight" Upholstery Products
Sam Knight
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Glide-Slope Ant |
Can the G-S Ant use the same antenna as the VOR? and be
connected via a di-plexer.......or tri-plexer???
You may run a glideslope receiver from your VOR antenna in addition
to the VOR NAV receiver. We'll have suitable couplers in stock in
a few days. See . . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/antenna/antenna.html#av-570
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Aronson <aronsond(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Aviation Swap Meet |
Listers:
I wanted to let all the lists know that there is an AVIATION SWAP MEET
on Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 6:00am at the NUT TREE airport in
NORTHERN CALIFORNIA (Vacaville). Go to htttp://www.solanopilots.com for
more information.
David Aronson
RV4 Firewall forward at last!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Masters, Donald" <donald.masters(at)lmco.com> |
| Subject: | To: "'rocket-list-digest(at)matronics.com'" |
un-subscribe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>I'll defer that question to Bob or others, but if you want something a
>little more reliable, look for Gudebrod lacing cord at electronics
>distributors or surplus stores. A quick web search came up with several
>hits with this one the most promising:
>http://www.versatileindustrial.com/gudebrod.html A little more expensive
>than dental floss, but 500 yards sure goes a long way!
>
>By the way, there are definite techniques to tying the knot. You basically
>make two loops around the bundle and trap the first part of the knot under
>the outer loop. I'm not sure I can explain it - I'll see if I can find a
>reference, though, and reply direct if I come up with a drawing or
>instructions.
The knot you're thinking of is called a clove hitch. See
this done at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/cablelace/cloveh_2.gif
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/cablelace/cloveh_1.jpg
Tugging the ends will snug the lace around the bundle of wires.
Put an ordinary square knot on top to secure the tie.
I'll look into sources for smaller put-ups of cable lace.
The standard 500 yards spool is enough to do dozens of
airplanes.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Galls wig/wag flasher . . . |
I've had a number of questions about hooking up this popular wig/wag
flasher and without having put my hands on one, I was unable to be
very authoritative. I purchased one a few weeks ago and last night
I took the time to scope out the critter.
I was disappointed to find that the flasher ties the two lamp circuits
together when it's de-energized . . . no big deal on police cars where
headlights are normally operated together . . . but a bit of a challange
when you'd like to have independent landing and taxi light circuits.
None-the-less, I've deduced and published a wiring diagram at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html which folks are welcome
to download as interest and/or need dictates.
By the way, I have a very nearly new Galls flasher for sale at
$10 less than I paid for it . . . first $45 offer via
direct email to me takes it . . . post paid anywhere in US.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Santa Rosa Seminar . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
Driving directions and hotel accomodations info has been posted
for the Santa Rosa CA seminar Sept 30/Oct 1. It's not too late
to sign up for this program. If we get a few more attendees,
we'll up the doorprize ante to two, count'm TWO handheld
GPS receievers. BTW, the current price of choice is the Magellan
GPS 310 that accepts a serial data cable option . . .
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/seminars.html
Further, there is sufficient interest in the proposed So Cal
and Portland programs to pick dates and places. We'll get those
programs firmed up in the next few weeks for presentations
in Jan/Feb time frame.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | . . . just couldn't stand it. |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
At the request of several readers, I sat down at the bench last week
and doped out a good way to use the popular Galls emergency vehicle
flasher as a wig_wag system for airplanes. The thing was useable but
it just struck me as too expensive, too heavy, and drove the total
parts count in the system up.
Been thrashing the seeds of an idea for several days. I've published
an elegant alternative to the Galls system on our website. Check out
the top item at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html
I am by no means suggesting that folks rip out the Galls system if
it's installed and working to their satisfaction . . . there's nothing
wrong with the way the thing functions. However, if you plan to have
a wig_wag see-and-be-seen system on your airplane and you've not yet
purchased hardware to do it, consider the new drawing I've posted for
a lower cost, lighter, and easier to install alternative.
We'll have an assembled flasher assembly to add with relay and switches
already stock in our catalog pretty soon. Alternatively, you may
roll-your-own from data supplied in the drawing.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: to torroid or not to torrid, that IS the question . . |
.
<004501c01433$fd7402a0$2d11dcd8@montanapc>
<4.3.2.7.0.20000902215147.00b52cf0(at)popd.ix.netcom.com>
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Hmmm! I have been doing business with RST for over ten years and never
>been treated rudely. I can imagine that he doesn't have a soft spot in his
>heart for Bob Archer, who openly denigrates RST's designs over the internet
>and in print. I have personally tested RST's designs with some antenna
>testing equipment that is about 25% of the price of my kit, and it performs
>quite fabulously. Whether it would perform just as well without the
>toroids, as Bob Archer would lead one to believe, I do not know, because I
>did not test the system that way.
I've tested the coaxial feedline (unbalanced) tied directly
to a dipole (balanced) antenna using a half dozen VHF rated
torroids for the hopeful purpose of reducing the effects
of so poor a match between antenna and feedline.
The net results for having added a few torroids was barely
detectable with some pretty sophisticated test equipment.
Only after we added about two dozen more torroids, did the
sum total of their effects become significant. Bob Archer's
poor customer relations notwithstanding, he is technically
accurate in the assessment that the torroids don't help
enough to make them worthwhile. While they don't help, they
don't hurt either. We've got a stocking order in for foil
tape and we'll be offering materials for embedded antenna
fabrication from our website catalog. We'll NOT be offering
the torroids as part of the kit.
There are coaxial transformers called "baluns" that will
do a nice job of transfering energy from balanced antennas
to unbalance feedlines . . . the net effect of these devices
is so small as to generate the question, "does the increase
in performance warrant the increase in complexity combined
with a potential decrease in reliability?" Based on my
observations of tens of thousands of Cessnas flying around
sans baluns and torroids with VACUUM tube receivers . . .
I'll suggest the answer is no.
Actually, you don't even need the copper foil. If you remove
the outer insulation from a piece of coax for about 30", pull
the center conductor out through the side of the braid as
shown in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/shldwire/shldwire.html
Take shield one direction and center lead the other direction
to make a dipole antenna. Use antenna analyzer to trim each
side of antenna until lowest SWR happens in center of frequency
range of interest. Glass this hummer in and you're done. No
solder joints. Being a fine wire antenna, this technique will
not be as broad-band in its SWR characteristics as an antenna
made from foil . . . but it will still perform quite nicely
for listenting to a VOR station 50 miles away from 5,000 feet
AGL.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Error in wig/wag circuit . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
Many thanks to reader Ken Brown for pointing out a fundamental
flaw in the way I wired the wig/wag circuit for Option 3.
A revised drawing has been uploaded for any interested parties
to download at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/aec_ww.pdf
Another reader, George Meketa, had another idea for a wig/wag
with some unique features and fewer switches on the panel.
Option 4 uses one, 3-position switch for OFF-TAXI-BOTH operation
of the landing and taxi lights. While in the BOTH position, pressing
a stick mounted push button produces wig/wag operation. The stick
mounted switch could also be a small toggle or rocker switch (the
current in this switch is 100 milliamperes) so that you don't
have to hold the button to keep the wig/wag functioning. Our
proposed AEC9020-1 flasher module will work with either option.
I've uploaded Option 4 to the website at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/aec_ww2.pdf
Whilst you're peeking at our website, take a look at what is
probably the world's smallest VHF comm transceiver at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/avionics/760vhf.html
We're out shopping for avionics which in my opinion have
a lot of bang for the buck . . . watch for other goodies
to show up there soon.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Shower-o-sparks magneto wiring . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
Don't know if it's the phase of the moon or el-nino effects
but I've had three requests in the last two days for info on
wiring a "vibrator" enhanced magneto . . . I've published a
wiring diagram on the website at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Weir article on Microair 760 . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
Several folk mentioned a review Jim did on the Microair 760.
I found a copy on Microair's website and reproduced it at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/avionics/760vhf.html
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
"RV List"
| Subject: | Long cuts in aluminum |
Listers,
I just cut my one piece top skins to size and found a way to make the nearly
10 foot cut easily. I clamped the sheet to a piece of 12 foot particle
board and cut it with a piloted, straight bit in a router using the edge of
the board as a guide. Way easy, very straight, and fast. The bit I used
was a 1/2" straight bit for formica. Smaller would make even less chips. I
highly recommend this as a way to make long cuts.
Aloha,
Russ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: nmh batteries |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
At 05:18 AM 9/10/00 GMT, you wrote:
>I saw two brands of nmh AA cells in Wally world. Energizer and Ray-o-vac I
>think. Just wondering if they were any better for GPS & hand held radios
>than ni-cad. Same voltage as ni-cad 1.2. Thanks for your many informative
>posts to the Kolb list. Bill in Lousyana
My pleasure sir . . .
My personal favorites for low voltage (4 cells or less) radios are
alkalines . . . they contain much more total energy than most
ni-cads . . . and about the same as run-of-the-mill NmH cells.
The best part is that they start out at 1.5 volts versus 1.25 for
the "nickels" . . .
Go to Dollar General stores and buy their house brand AA nicads.
I've tested these batteries repeatedly and they're withing a few
percent of best bunnybatteries you can buy. Best yet, unburdened
by VERY expensive television and print advertising, is they cost
25 cents per cell . . . A VERY good value.
The only thing that beats this for dollars/joule of energy
stored are the Ray-o-Vac Renew series rechargable alkalines.
The down side of these are you have to have a charger and a place
to plug it in. I buy the Dollar General batteries about 10 packages
at a time and keep plenty of spares in my flight bag.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee" <leetay(at)idcomm.com> |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
| Subject: | Re: nmh batteries |
Bob----Dollar General NICADS, or Alkalines? I think you meant alkalines,
didn't you?
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 12:13 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: Re: nmh batteries
At 05:18 AM 9/10/00 GMT, you wrote:
>I saw two brands of nmh AA cells in Wally world. Energizer and Ray-o-vac I
>think. Just wondering if they were any better for GPS & hand held radios
>than ni-cad. Same voltage as ni-cad 1.2. Thanks for your many
informative
>posts to the Kolb list. Bill in Lousyana
My pleasure sir . . .
My personal favorites for low voltage (4 cells or less) radios are
alkalines . . . they contain much more total energy than most
ni-cads . . . and about the same as run-of-the-mill NmH cells.
The best part is that they start out at 1.5 volts versus 1.25 for
the "nickels" . . .
Go to Dollar General stores and buy their house brand AA nicads.
I've tested these batteries repeatedly and they're withing a few
percent of best bunnybatteries you can buy. Best yet, unburdened
by VERY expensive television and print advertising, is they cost
25 cents per cell . . . A VERY good value.
The only thing that beats this for dollars/joule of energy
stored are the Ray-o-Vac Renew series rechargable alkalines.
The down side of these are you have to have a charger and a place
to plug it in. I buy the Dollar General batteries about 10 packages
at a time and keep plenty of spares in my flight bag.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: nmh batteries |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Bob----Dollar General NICADS, or Alkalines? I think you meant alkalines,
>didn't you?
Opps . . . yes. Thanks for the heads up.
Dollar General has a "Powerize" brand
"long lasting Alkaline" cell that sells
in our local stores for $1.50/pkg of 6 cells.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: battery trade-offs |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Also take a look at:
>
>http://www.avionicswest.com/batterylife.html#Life
>
>
> --Duane
Thanks for the heads up on this one. I've captured it
and will include it in a bibliography of information
I'm gatering on people's practical experience with batteries.
It's interesting to note that the most expensive batteries
(nicad and/or nimh) had the lowest operating life even when
they claimed 1600 maH of capacity, some jelly-bean brands
of alkalines performed longer.
The author seems enamored of the 1-cent per battery
cycle for battery cost . . . which is indeed a valid
consideration. For me personally, the long battery life
(radio never needs batteries in flight) and convenience
of throwaway is more important . . . PROVIDED that I don't
pay $5.00/set for batteries.
With my Dollar Generals, it costs me $1 to battery up
the Magellan 2000 and $0.50 for the 300. That's $1.50
per flight for 100% servicability of both radios. When
I burn $85 worth of fuel per flight and pay about $240
in rental, the $1.50 is a pretty tiny part of the total
cost. My personal quest is for maximized flight system
reliability while minimizing cost and inconvenience of dealing
with chargers, etc. away from home base.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: battery trade-offs |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Bob,
>
>Since you're doing a bibliography, I'll throw in my experience. I've messed
>with nicads in the past and don't think much of them as replacements for
>Alkaline AA cells. They just don't last long enough. But my Garmin handheld
>GPS 90 will go through a set of AA Duracells on the way to OSH and another
>on the way back. So at OSH I decided to try some NmH. Got eight of these
>little green generic deals for $2.50 ea from Batteries America booth. So far
>I like them -- they seem to last as long as the Duracells but are
>rechargable. Being environmentally conscious I try to avoid disposable
>anyhing, including batteries.
>
>As for the quality and longevity, time will tell.
>
The Nimh are generally much higher capacity than their
Nicad cousins and we should expect them to outperform
the Nicads. I use Nimh in my amateur radio hand-helds
and have also noticed improved longevity . . . at least
with respect to usage. Nicad and Nimh have much higher
self-discharge rates than alkalines and therefore have
very poor shelf life by comparison . . . but for gizmos
that are used regularly, the Nimh is an excellent
alternative. I think service life of the Nimh should
be on a par with Nicad.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian E. Adams" <md11plt(at)attglobal.net> |
| Subject: | 14 volts vs 28 volts |
Gentleman,
I have a question and would like to see if anyone has an answer. I
just picked up a great deal on some radios, but they are 28v. I am
thinking about either exchanging them to 14v or putting in a 28 v system.
I just want to say that I have not bought anything like a starter or
generator yet so I can do either. I know there is a light weight starter
out there, but is there a light weight alternator and battery to go with
it?
Thanks for your input.
Brian Adams
HR II builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rodney Hill" <thunderrod(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 14 volts vs 28 volts |
Brian,
another option is to put a transformer 12V to 28V for your comm set up. It
adds a few pounds, but is an option that allows you to keep the rest of the
system 12V if you wish.
I'm no "Sparky", so you'd better check with the experts, but I believe this
is done.
"Rocket" Rod
-AKA thunderrod(at)earthlink.net.
---- Original Message -----
From: "Brian E. Adams" <md11plt(at)attglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 8:16 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: 14 volts vs 28 volts
>
> Gentleman,
>
> I have a question and would like to see if anyone has an answer. I
> just picked up a great deal on some radios, but they are 28v. I am
> thinking about either exchanging them to 14v or putting in a 28 v system.
> I just want to say that I have not bought anything like a starter or
> generator yet so I can do either. I know there is a light weight starter
> out there, but is there a light weight alternator and battery to go with
> it?
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Brian Adams
> HR II builder
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 14 volts vs 28 volts |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
>Gentleman,
>
> I have a question and would like to see if anyone has an answer. I
>just picked up a great deal on some radios, but they are 28v. I am
>thinking about either exchanging them to 14v or putting in a 28 v system.
>I just want to say that I have not bought anything like a starter or
>generator yet so I can do either. I know there is a light weight starter
>out there, but is there a light weight alternator and battery to go with
>it?
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
>Brian Adams
>HR II builder
There are 14 to 28 volt up-converters . . . but it puts a lot
of eggs in one basket when several pieces of equipment depend on
functionality of one device. Building a 28v airplane shuts you out of a vast
market of automotive components that are entirely suited for use
on airplanes.
Yes, B&C has a 28v version of the L60 alternator (takes special
regulator) and battery weight doesn't have to be much heavier.
You can downsize a.h. when the voltage goes up to still carry the
same energy.
I've had several builders over the years go the 28v route to
accomodate some 28V equipment willed to them by various benefactors.
The thing is that radios and instruments are bolt-on devices. Radios
in particular evolve. Changing from 28 back to 14 in the future
is a major task . . . consider carefully.
Given that so many TC aircraft are 28V, have you checked with a
dealer in used radios to see if you can swap the units you have for
equivalent 14V stuff . . . it might take a few bux to grease the
deal but if it were my airplane . . . I keep crucifixes and rosewood
stakes around just in case a 28v gizmo should be foolish enough
to venture into my shop.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Soldering station for sale |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
I've got a really nice temperature controlled solder station
up on Ebay . . .
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=434477668
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan E. Files" <bfiles(at)gci.net> |
Anybody know about the different impedance of the headsets out there today?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: experimental battery box |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>That is why there was a gap between putting the new battery in and putting
>the battery in a box. I didn't think there was a problem but then an A&P
>came to look over my plane for possible buying, he said that it was
>dangerous not to have a box. A&P, IA's are the experts.
>>Batteries have been known to explode so I would recommend some kind of
>>secondary containment for safety regardless if it is an RG, flooded cell or
>>whatever.
Battery boxes have NEVER been designed to contain an exploding
battery . . . in fact, battery boxes have been DEMONSTRATED
to make an explosion more likely if not more violent.
Real life case in point:
Amateur built airplane, all composite, very nice composite
battery box glassed right into the passenger seat back.
Alternator goes into OV. No annunciation of OV condition
and battery begins to outgas. In the course of "troublshooting"
the system, a few switches get thrown, one of which is
the battery master contactor control switch. Battery contactor
INSIDE the box with the battery ignites ideal mixture and
blows up battery box.
No flight-safety damage to aircraft but the pilot's underwear
was seriously compromised.
What's the physics of this event? To have an explosion you
must have three conditions. (1) A source of FUEL that's mixed
in proportions to produce rapid combustion. Too much fuel/
oxygen, no explosion; too little fuel/oxygen, no explosion.
Cook a battery and you disassociate water H20 into H2 and
O2 in ratios ideal for recombination in spectacular manner.
(2) CONTAINMENT in this case was the nicely crafted battery
box. Without containment, gunpowder simply burns. Wrap it
up in rolls of newspaper and you have a firecracker. Finally,
(3) IGNITION provided by the battery contactor located inside
the battery box.
LOTS of things could be done to break the chain of events
that could have been much more serious . . .
(1) Proper ov protection on the airplane's electrical system.
(2) No battery box . . . let the vented gasses waft away
in the breeze.
(3) Don't mount electrical equipment inside the battery box
along with the battery.
(4) Adequate instrumentation on the electrical system to
KNOW what's happening when stuff starts to misbehave and
adequate UDERSTANDING of the system to do the right things
about it.
By the way, the BIG guys don't have battery boxes either.
The battery on a bizjet comes with a nice connector on the
side. You drop the critter into a tray, strap it down
and plug it in. None the less, there are documented cases
of an RG battery blowing up when a poorly welded inter-cell
connector burned off . . . needless to say, a redesign and
modification to the assembly process was accomplished in
a hurry.
Not one government-approved airplane-banger in ten
understands or can explain what you've just read.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jamesbaldwin(at)attglobal.net |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
| Subject: | Re: experimental battery box |
Bob-
As an mechanical engineer who does understand most of these things,
thank you once again for a complete yet simply written explanation of
things with electrons running around. When it's time for my Harmon
Rocket electrical system you will be the source and supplier for all you
have to offer. JBB
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> >That is why there was a gap between putting the new battery in and
> putting
> >the battery in a box. I didn't think there was a problem but then an
> A&P
> >came to look over my plane for possible buying, he said that it was
> >dangerous not to have a box. A&P, IA's are the experts.
>
> >>Batteries have been known to explode so I would recommend some kind
> of
> >>secondary containment for safety regardless if it is an RG, flooded
> cell or
> >>whatever.
>
> Battery boxes have NEVER been designed to contain an exploding
> battery . . . in fact, battery boxes have been DEMONSTRATED
> to make an explosion more likely if not more violent.
>
> Real life case in point:
>
> Amateur built airplane, all composite, very nice composite
> battery box glassed right into the passenger seat back.
>
> Alternator goes into OV. No annunciation of OV condition
> and battery begins to outgas. In the course of "troublshooting"
> the system, a few switches get thrown, one of which is
> the battery master contactor control switch. Battery contactor
> INSIDE the box with the battery ignites ideal mixture and
> blows up battery box.
>
> No flight-safety damage to aircraft but the pilot's underwear
> was seriously compromised.
>
> What's the physics of this event? To have an explosion you
> must have three conditions. (1) A source of FUEL that's mixed
> in proportions to produce rapid combustion. Too much fuel/
> oxygen, no explosion; too little fuel/oxygen, no explosion.
> Cook a battery and you disassociate water H20 into H2 and
> O2 in ratios ideal for recombination in spectacular manner.
> (2) CONTAINMENT in this case was the nicely crafted battery
> box. Without containment, gunpowder simply burns. Wrap it
> up in rolls of newspaper and you have a firecracker. Finally,
> (3) IGNITION provided by the battery contactor located inside
> the battery box.
>
> LOTS of things could be done to break the chain of events
> that could have been much more serious . . .
>
> (1) Proper ov protection on the airplane's electrical system.
>
> (2) No battery box . . . let the vented gasses waft away
> in the breeze.
>
> (3) Don't mount electrical equipment inside the battery box
> along with the battery.
>
> (4) Adequate instrumentation on the electrical system to
> KNOW what's happening when stuff starts to misbehave and
> adequate UDERSTANDING of the system to do the right things
> about it.
>
> By the way, the BIG guys don't have battery boxes either.
> The battery on a bizjet comes with a nice connector on the
> side. You drop the critter into a tray, strap it down
> and plug it in. None the less, there are documented cases
> of an RG battery blowing up when a poorly welded inter-cell
> connector burned off . . . needless to say, a redesign and
> modification to the assembly process was accomplished in
> a hurry.
>
> Not one government-approved airplane-banger in ten
> understands or can explain what you've just read.
>
> Bob . . .
> --------------------------------------------
> ( Knowing about a thing is different than )
> ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
> ( and still understand nothing. )
> ( C.F. Kettering )
> --------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: experimental battery box |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
>Bob-
>As an mechanical engineer who does understand most of these things,
>thank you once again for a complete yet simply written explanation of
>things with electrons running around. When it's time for my Harmon
>Rocket electrical system you will be the source and supplier for all you
>have to offer. JBB
>
Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate your support. I also
solicit your critical review. As one of the "brothers" I'd like
you to rattle my cage any time you think I might have slipped
a decimal or misinterpreted a finding. The goal is not to preach
the gospel according to Nuckolls but to know and understand
the facts.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nick Nafsinger" <nicknaf(at)alltel.net> |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
| Subject: | Re: experimental battery box |
Bob...
Its that attitude right there that has made your word nearly the gospel!
Thanks for ALL the advice I have silently absorbed... We all appreciate it.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: experimental battery box
>
>Bob-
>As an mechanical engineer who does understand most of these things,
>thank you once again for a complete yet simply written explanation of
>things with electrons running around. When it's time for my Harmon
>Rocket electrical system you will be the source and supplier for all you
>have to offer. JBB
>
Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate your support. I also
solicit your critical review. As one of the "brothers" I'd like
you to rattle my cage any time you think I might have slipped
a decimal or misinterpreted a finding. The goal is not to preach
the gospel according to Nuckolls but to know and understand
the facts.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument Lighting |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>--> RV-List message posted by: Tdiede(at)aol.com
>
>Am currently designing instrument panel for RV-8. Question:
>
>Is the internal lighting available with instruments adequete ?
>Why would one use "light posts" around the instruments ?
>
Internal lighting has always be quite adequate . . . so
adequate in fact that we've charge a whole lot of extra
dollars to fit a certified aircraft with all internally
lighted instruments. Post lights are also adquate but
a fully illuminated set of instruments can require a dozen
or more of the rather pricey little light fixtures.
Flood lighting (a-la Cessna 172) takes one or two lamps,
minimal wiring, draws very little current and installs
in a fraction of the time it takes to wire up a forest
of post lights.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee" <leetay(at)idcomm.com> |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
| Subject: | Re: Instrument Lighting |
Re: instrument lighting.
Many years ago, I came up with an instrument lighting system that is both
easy, and highly effective on a homebuilt. Lay out your panel as you want,
and then make a Lucite overlay panel with instrument cutouts, edges beveled
back toward the instrument faces. Locate several instrument lights just
wherever convenient on the panel, and into the Lucite, with the bulbs
sticking up into their own Lucite hole "sockets". Mount the bulbs on the
instrument panel, not the Lucite overlay panel, the bulbs just stick up into
the Lucite without actually being attached to it. That way you can easily
remove the Lucite panel for instrument light work. Then do an overlay panel
of whatever fancy cover you want to dress it up. A Walnut or other exotic
wood is really pretty, and it can be just an extremely thin veneer glued to
the Lucite overlay panel. The Lucite reflects the light from the bulbs very
evenly over the entire instrument face, literally giving a ring-glow around
each instrument. The bulbs can be just about anywhere on the panel, and of
course should be system-wired for a good dimmer circuit. I have never seen
more even lighting than this system can provide, it is very easy, and costs
virtually nothing either in money, complexity, or weight. Lightening holes
can be cut anywhere in the Lucite to reduce the overall overlay panel
weight, and painting the edges of these holes and the outside edges of the
Lucite panel black (silver is probably better, aids the reflection of the
light with less light wastage), will reduce the light lost through them,
plus reducing the possibility of "stray light".
Lee Taylor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 7:52 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Instrument Lighting
>--> RV-List message posted by: Tdiede(at)aol.com
>
>Am currently designing instrument panel for RV-8. Question:
>
>Is the internal lighting available with instruments adequete ?
>Why would one use "light posts" around the instruments ?
>
Internal lighting has always be quite adequate . . . so
adequate in fact that we've charge a whole lot of extra
dollars to fit a certified aircraft with all internally
lighted instruments. Post lights are also adquate but
a fully illuminated set of instruments can require a dozen
or more of the rather pricey little light fixtures.
Flood lighting (a-la Cessna 172) takes one or two lamps,
minimal wiring, draws very little current and installs
in a fraction of the time it takes to wire up a forest
of post lights.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Gretz <warrengretz(at)gretzaero.com> |
list-aerobatic ,
list-avionics ,
list-ez , list-glasair ,
list-lancair ,
list-rocket
| Subject: | Pitot tube SPECIAL price |
Hello to the list,
I have just received a price increase from the manufacture of the AN5814
heated pitot tube. This is the heated pitot tube with the static source
in the pitot tube. I have a good supply of this pitot tube that I will
sell at the old (before price increase) price. The old price is $199,
this includes shipping in the US. After my current supply is gone, I
must increase my price to $206 which will also include shipping in the
US.
This will be on a first come first serve basis.
Check out my website for descriptions of this product and also my heated
pitot tube mounting bracket kits. You can purchase using your VISA or
MASTER CARD using my online order form, or call me in the evenings or on
weekends.
My website address is: http://www.gretzaero.com
Warren Gretz
Gretz Aero
303-770-3811 evenings and weekends (you may also leave a message other
times)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual batteries |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> I have experiance with marine electrical systems. Their are some very
>light, vapor sealed rotary battery switches. They would need to be modified
>for aviation use. But they are very reliable and are capable of high current
>loads. For two battery systems, the rotary switch is labeled left, right,
>both.
It's very easy and in fact recommended that multiple batteries
each have their own contactor for connection to the system. Furhter,
there are connections to each battery that do not go through the
contactor for running components of an electrically dependent
engine. I.e., your electrically dependent engine should operate
whether or not the DC master switch(es) are ON or OFF . . .
>> It's not an issue of electrical demand its the reliability and redundancy
>> that concerns me. I have the Stratus Subaru engine and I'm getting the
>> dual ignition but obviously don't have mags. So the second battery
would be
>> primarily backup power for the ignition, but potentially you could use two
>> batteries of the same size and provide complete redundancy. Of course on
>> the other hand adding that reduncy could also increase the complexity and
>> reduce the reliability of the system. I'm just interested if there is some
>> experience out there with some real simple redundant electrical systems.
This topic has been discussed at length on the lists, in our book,
in articles downloadable from our website and illustrated in numerous
wiring diagrams downloadable from the website. Two-battery installations
are no big deal . . .
>The concern you have for flying with your soob electrical system is
>legitimate. If auto systems are going to be used in aircraft, then you must
>build in redundant systems to match typical aircraft systems.
I'll suggest the LAST thing we want to do is match "typical" aircraft
systems . . . the architecture, components and pilot's understanding
of those systems have not changed in 50 years.
>If a battery fails in most aircraft, the engine will continue to run,
>In your auto set up if the battery fails so does your engine. A
>two battery system duplicates the two magneto system pretty close
>as far as redundantcy is concerned. Batteries can and do fail with
>out warning.
Batteries do NOT fail without warning. It's just that most of us
don't pay any attention to what the battery is trying to tell us.
We replace tires when the tread is gone, overhaul cylinders when
the compression gets low, file nicks out of propellers when noticed,
etc . . . . but we beat a battery until it fails to crank the engine
. . . and replace it after we've propped the airplane for the third
time.
Very rudimentary preventative maintenance techiques will insure
that nobody reading these words will EVER experience battery failure.
>To reduce the weight penalty two smaller bateries can be used,
>but they must be sized with absolute precision.
Don't know about "precision" but some consideration must be given
to what a battery's task is. Batteries have three duties: (1) crank
the engine, (2) stabilize alternator(s) and (3) provide power for
essential goodies should alternator output be lost. The BEST
hedge against alternator failure is two alternators . . . dump
the sucky vacuum pump and install a second alternator. THEN the
batteries on board no longer have to be sized for standby power.
Total system weight can be much reduced.
>This topic is outside my area of knowledge, so educate me. I have an HDS
>with Stratus Soob. I have a small motorcycle battery (14AH) which has
>cranked me up without hesitation for 18 months and 98 hours of flight
>time. If my alternator light comes on and my instruments haven't indicated a
>problem, I think I can turn off my master and fly a long time on battery.
I'd encourage this builder to replace THINKING with KNOWING how long
his airplane will stay aloft battery only. Your battery should be
no smaller than your fuel tank. If you do not KNOW that the battery
capacity on board will allow you to use up fuel on board, then I'll
suggest further investigation, personal education and perhaps
some changes to your system are indicated . .
> something is wrong with the battery, shouldn't there be early indications.
> For thirty-one bucks I can get a new one. I have dual ignition but never
> thought I needed dual batteries. What are the odds of loosing all
> electrical if you are maintaining your airplane and monitoring your
> instruments? My empty weight is 602 and I like that.
There's no pat answer to this . . . a number of options exist for
insuring your flight system reliability. My personal goal for
system reliability is, "From the time I break ground to the time
I land, I don't want to break a sweat." This doesn't have to mean
nothing ever fails. It means that I have to architecture a system
for failure tolerance and educate myself in its operation and
maintenance to sustain that level of reliability. Dual batteries
and indeed dual alternators can often make for a LIGHTER airplane.
>1. Flight over hostile territory (I fly in the Pacific Northwest w/o a lot
>of "emergency landing fields").
>2. Alternator craps out.
This happens a LOT on certified aircraft . . . just check the
service difficulty reports at faa.gov . . . the REASON alternators
crap a lot is because the overwhelming majority of the TC
fleet are fitted with crappy alternators . . . holy-watered and
configuration managed right into antiquity. TC alternators fail
routinely in obscene ways every month . . . through bolts broke,
cases cracked, bearings seized, windings burned . . . you name
it . . . it happens. By LAW, that alternator will be returned to
ORIGINAL configuration and bolted back on some poor pilot's airplane.
B&C and similar alternators (Nipon-Dienso) have DEMONSTRATED
operational reliability suggesting that most will run the lifetime
of engine with nothing more than a belt change. B&C's return rate
in thousands of sales over the past 10 years has been under 1% for
the total fleet!
>3. The above fact is discovered by the voltage dropping alarmingly low on
>the voltmeter.
Why not some form of ACTIVE notification of alternator failure?
Most pilots don't look at the voltmeter until the panel starts to
go black or the radios begin to mis-behave . . . with no ACTIVE
notification, one tootles along with everything operating and
lights blazing thus squandering a limited energy resource. By the
time you know anything is wrong, your options are all gone.
>4. Shedding the electrical load still leaves too little juice to power
>things like radio, fuel pump, and CD player.
See articles on website and chapter in book on system reliability.
>Hence, I installed a second 17 ah battery with a switch on the panel that
>kicks in the second battery and provides extra time to make a safe landing
>with needed equipment.
Dual 17 a.h. batteries is 34 pounds total. Add to this about 8-10 pounds
of vacuum system for 44 pounds. Now consider taking out two batteries,
one vacuum system and putting one 4 to 7 pound alternator and one
10 pound battery for a weight REDUCTION of 27 pounds and a net
increase in flight system reliability unequaled in ANY certified
aircraft.
>5 years ago I was on a 300 mile cross country in a Cessna 150. 30 miles from
>my destination the voltage regulator apparently failed wide open. Sparks
and
>smoke started spewing our of the instrument panel as my first indication.
In
>the short time I took to turn everything off, it was too late, basically
>everthing that was "on" failed including the electric clock. I was also
>amazed that in that short time, the battery was completely discharged. Once
>the smoke cleared and I calmed down. I continued to my destination with a
>completely inoperative electrical system and made a normal no flap landing.
>With one battery and an electronic ignition system, I would have had a dead
>engine as well.
Forgive me, I am in no way trying to demean this writer's experience
but this is typical of the "dark and stormy night" stories that
drive our design, maintenance and operating decisions on homebuilts.
I'll suggest that TC aircraft can be used only as examples of
how NOT to architecture, maintain and operate an electrical system. I've
often written that my personal mind-set climbing into a rental TC
ship is that I don't care if ANY of that stuff is working 5 minutes
after take-off. I intend to get where I need to go without breaking
a sweat. That means UNDERSTANDING the limitations of a machine designed
mechanics and procedures . . . and outfitting myself to deal with the
worst. $30 worth of parts and a weekend's effort could elevate the
average TC aircraft into 21st century . . . but it ain't gonna happen.
This is why we need to look past our experience with TC ships to
design and operate our airplanes.
Virtually EVERY concern voiced above can be addressed with simple
choices in architecture and knowledge of how the system and its
components operate. Education and decisions based on understanding
will make it so . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>I use the Garmin GPS III pilot on the dash of a Kitfox lite and it works
>great. My antenna is left on the GPS. The altitude feature is very helpful
>as I can watch rate of climb/decent. Do the cheap GPS's have altitude? I
>think this is a feature of the number of satellites they pick up.
I wrote an article for Sport Aviation about three years
ago that you can download at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/nailgun.pdf
The radios have changed but the basic facts have not. I've
not turned on a VOR receiver in 3 years. I fly dual GPS with
a total investment of about $200. I give these things away
at my weekend seminars. Given the signup rate for the Santa
Rosa program next weekend, I'll probably give away two of them.
There's no better return on investment than a low-end
Magellan hand held GPS receiver. The AOPA airport directly
makes entry of a new airport location about a 2 minute
trivial task. Since selective access was turned off, my
GPS300 gives altitude in 1 foot increments.
WARNING! Altitud displays can lag considerably behind
true altitude . . . it's harder to calculate and can be
off by several hundred feed after a rapid/large change.
Give it a few minutes to settle down and/or make altitude
changes more sedately and you'll find the readings track
your altimeter very closely.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 14 volts vs 28 volts |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>> I have a question and would like to see if anyone has an answer. I
>> just picked up a great deal on some radios, but they are 28v. I am
>> thinking about either exchanging them to 14v or putting in a 28 v system.
>> I just want to say that I have not bought anything like a starter or
>> generator yet so I can do either. I know there is a light weight starter
>> out there, but is there a light weight alternator and battery to go with
>> it?
Sorry to take so long to address this . . .
There are 14/28 volt up-converters that can be fairly efficient.
That is to say that they only loose about 10% of the system energy
as rejected heat. You didn't say what kind of radios they were.
A major concern for a power converter is that one device is
responsable for running ALL of the radios connected to it. I.e.,
single point of failure.
However, I wouldn't recommend changing your airplane to 28v just
to accomodate the radios . . . this will shut you out of a
large automotive/consumer market of components that are most
suitable for use on airplanes and costs a lot less.
What radios are we talking about?
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum System |
<39.aa2aaa7.270392b5(at)aol.com>
<022701c028db$1a6bdfc0$18210a18@bllvu1.wa.home.com>
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
Just a passing thought....will check my sources of replacement 12 volt vacuum
motors used in motorhome central vacs, I know the until is about 80% more
inches of vacuum then needed, but the motor does draw a fair amount of
current at 14
volts dc.. Perhaps using an IC regulator to reduce the voltage to around 8
volts would bring the current to an acceptable level and enough vacuum.
"TBO" for the brushes is rated 300-500 hours.
I used to build electrically driven standby vacuum systems . . . they
are NOT as dependable as an engine driven vacuum system . . . this is
why they were popularized as a standby. It sat in the airplane unused
until needed. The most dependable is a venturi . . . no moving parts.
Harder to de-ice tho. Given that one's #1 mission upon encountering
ice is to get out of ice, then perhaps de-ice isn't that important.
See latest issue AOPA pilot where a pilot writes about an instrument
course he took. The goal was to get him rated in 10 days. The first thing
the instructor did was cover up the attitude gyro saying, "we won't
need this."
I used to fly shotgun for a co-worker's instrument proficiency
work . . . he would cover up BOTH gyros and we'd go out to shoot
approaches to minimums in the typcial KS bumpy crosswinds. And by
the way, this was NOT a "no gyro" approach using timed turns from
the ground. We went out at lunch time to fly Mid Continent Airport
mixed in with all the big guys and totally on his own. He'd
nail those two needles together and track them right down to the
runway every time. Flying IFR with gyros is not difficult . . .
it's just a different way of doing it. Doing it well gives you
more options about equipment expectations and puts the odds of
living to fly another day decidedly in your favor.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Gone to Santa Rosa . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
Dee and I are packed up and pulling the plugs on the
office computers. We'll be headed for Santa Rosa in the
morning to do a weekend seminar.
Will be taking care of e-mail duties via the dial-up
account and a traveling laptop but the hammer-n-tongs
stuff from the shop is on hold until Monday. Looking
forward to meeting with lots of our readers this weekend.
You don't need a reservation to make this program . . .
just show up and we'll find a seat for you.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/SantaRosa.html
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | One Piece Top Skin Rivet Spacings |
Rocketeers,
I'm about to drill my one piece top skins and noticed the spacing on the
.025 outboard is 1" down the main ribs. If using a one piece .032 skin, can
the spacing safely be 1.25" as on all the other skins? Perhaps this is just
a typo on the vans drawing.
Of course, as usual, my question falls on a weekend when none of the normal
avenues are available to get answers!
Aloha,
Russ Werner
Maui
HRII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: One Piece Top Skin Rivet Spacings |
7/8 "front spar, 1" rear spar and 1 1/4" on the ribs.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Re: One Piece Top Skin Rivet Spacings |
Thanks John. I kind of figured that it didn't need the 1" spacing on 1/4 of
the wing skins when 1.25 worked on the rest of the structure. Since my
flutes are at 2.5 on center, it will make life easier if my spacing is 1.25.
Onward ho,
Russ
Maui
HRII
----- Original Message ----- > 7/8 "front spar, 1" rear spar and 1 1/4" on
the ribs.
> John
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry E. James" <larryj(at)oz.net> |
"Rocket-List Digest Server"
| Subject: | One Piece Top Skin Rivet Spacings |
Russ, After your call last night I went down and looked closely at what I
had done. I used .032 skins top and bottom; the rivet spacing on the top
inboard ribs is around 1.18" and on the top outboard skins about 1.20"; with
the exception of the two ribs adjacent the aileron bellcrank where the
spacing is roughly the same except a different pattern given the cross
bulkhead. I did what looked prudent at the time and did not ask around for
any analytical advice. As a rule, I start with the recommended rivet
spacing along any given joint and hold to a slightly tighter spacing. I'd
welcome any professional (more experienced) advice along these lines too !!
Cheers,
Larry E. James
Bellevue, WA
Harmon Rocket II -fuselage-
PS. give a call next time you're in town and let's meet up !!!!
>>From: "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net>
>>Subject: Rocket-List: One Piece Top Skin Rivet Spacings
>>Rocketeers,
>>I'm about to drill my one piece top skins and noticed the spacing on the
>>.025 outboard is 1" down the main ribs. If using a one piece .032 skin,
can
>>the spacing safely be 1.25" as on all the other skins? Perhaps this is
just
>>a typo on the vans drawing.
>>Of course, as usual, my question falls on a weekend when none of the
normal
>>avenues are available to get answers!
>>Aloha,
>>Russ Werner
>>Maui
>>HRII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | more main skin rivet questions |
Rocketeers,
I have my first top skin drilled, with the exception of every other rivet
location on the inboard rib.
Question: Should I leave every other rivet out on the top to accomodate
attachment of the root fairing or should I just go ahead and drill them 1.25
apart?
When the time comes to countersink the skin, assuming dimpling, what is the
procedure where we have the wing walk doubler? Should those be machine
countersunk or all 3 parts dimpled?
Thanks for the previous answers. I drilled the entire top skin at 1.25"
along the ribs, per John.
Aloha,
Russ
Maui, HRII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)execulink.com> |
| Subject: | elevator trim cable |
I am going to mount my elevator trim cable on this project to the
outside of the elevator as many of the CA guys are doing. Are there any
pictures or drawings out there that could be shared? I spoke with John
Harmon yesterday and he mounts the cable through the main elevator weldment
tube. A tube is welded in the tube to guide the cable. A picture sure
would be nice to see before I start drilling!
For those that may be interested this project is my second Harmon
Rocket. I am fitting the tail, next on the list is the canopy. In Canada
we need inspections before any parts are closed in and that is being
scheduled. The plane should fly in the spring if I keep on my previous
pace. I am not really doing anything different on this plane except for
cosmetic stuff. And yes the flying Rocket is still flying and for sale! I
am getting to the expensive stage and need some cash to pay for the engine,
panel etc etc. I just got back from the Fulton NY fly in and had a great
time showing my rocket to all the RV guys.
Tom Martin
HRII 260 hours of pure joy
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | tire maintenence |
In a message dated 10/2/00 2:01:15 AM Central Daylight Time,
rv-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
<< KBoatri144(at)AOL.COM wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: KBoatri144(at)aol.com
>
> In hopes of making airing up my tires a bit easier, I assumed I'd drill a
> hole in each wheel pant for access to the tire valve. Before I cut the
hole,
> I looked around for an attachment which will fit through the hole and onto
> the onto the valve stem. The only ones I can find have the head at a 45
> degree angle, making direct access through a small hole difficult.
> Suggestions?
> >>
Hey Kyle:
I researched this exact part last week:
Call WW Grainger and order p/n 4X673 @$1.89 ea
Austin local # 512-837-7440
or 800-225-5994 for their emergency number (eg: I GOTTA have that tool --
it's an emergency!!)
I have one of these adapters on a tire filler -- works fine.
How to fill the tire? I drill a 7/8" hole in the wheelpant for access, and
fill it with one of those pop-in 'wookie buttons' available at Home Depot in
their specialty fastener dept. For 'on-the-road' type fill-ups, I have a
special tool (but it'a a secret -- don't tell anyone): take two metal 1/5"
tire valve extensions and screw 'em together (use some of that green loctite
- it's better than rust!). Now you have a tool that will allow you to air up
from any available tire chuck.
Cheers
Mark
Team Rocket
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: more main skin rivet questions |
Russ dimple every thing and drill the 1 1/4" you won't need that many attach
points
for the faring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | 28 vs. 14 volt airplane . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>I have an 0-320D2G engine with 28V Alternator & Starter. Many of the
>electrical items I already have purchased use 12V (nose lift, mac servo's).
>I have the option of trading for a 12V Alternator & Starter at no additional
>cost.
Please consider taking advantage of this option . . .
I understand that 2X the voltage = 1/2 the current, meaning the wire
>size going from the battery to the engine is much small for the 28V system
>(less weight).
The 28v option made sense when we were building B-29's and B-52's with
as much as several hundred miles of wire in them . . . the weight savings
was significant. Further, the builders of these machines had pretty deep
pockets to reach into (yours and mine) to finance the miliatary aviation
specialty hardware items unique to their task.
Later on, folks who built DC-6's and 707's knew that the return on
investment for a revenue generating machine was a function of how
many pounds of pax/bags could carried. The airplanes were still pretty
complex and again, the cash to pay for them would continue to come
from the same pockets . . .
Now, your airplane isn't going to make you a dime. In fact, it's
going to COST you a lot of dollars. Further, money isn't going
to come from any pockets but your own to finance the task. While
one might successfully argue a small weight savings it will be quite
small. In a simple single it's not over a couple of pounds.
However, locking yourself down to aviation specific, 28V hardware
shuts you out of all the opportunities to exploit automotive and
consumer products that are widely available, high volume, and
competitively priced.
One exception to consider in this reasoning is unique to canard-pushers.
Cabin heat. If you're going to insist on flying in cold weather and/or
high altitudes, electric toe warmers might help you survive the
experience with a minimum of discomfort. I've had several builders
go for 28V, 60A systems. While the weight of the altenrator
and battery needed are about the same as for 14V, 60A . . . the energy
you can get out of the 28V alternator is twice that of the 14V . . .
all of which you will need and wish for more if you're considering
electric cabin heat.
> . . . . Also, If you mix your loads, what is the best solution? A
>converter or two batteries or something else? Or does someone make a 28V
>battery with the cell poles exposed with 12V tapping capability? Any
>suggestions greatly appreciated.
Mixed voltages in a small airplane are almost never practical.
The size, weight, and cost of voltage conversion equipment clobbers
an otherwise elegant design. Further, you're often forced
to run multiple accessories from the voltage converter meaning
that it becomes a single point of failure for all the goodies
it powers.
Tapping down on half of a 28v battery to get 14v is about the
best way I know of to kill off an otherwise perfectly good
battery.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Fuel low level warning. |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>My header tank is painted black. in the hangar I have no problem with the
>low level warning light coming on with the tank full. when I pulled the fox
>out into the sun today, the low level warning light came on. I suspect that
>light is being introduced into the header tank by the clear (but slightly
>yellow) vent line to the right tank that had the sun on it.
>
>Has anyone experienced this? How did you solve it.
When using the opto-reflective liquid level sensors, stray
light will always be an issue. Most of the applications I
designed for in the past were metalic or bladder tanks
and external lights were not a problem. In cases where we
did have to address the issue, a baffle or other shade
over the sensor tip was useful. One sensor I built had the
cone tip of the sensor surrounded by a black anodized cup
drilled with small holes. Liquid could get in to trip the
sensor but light was restricted.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Electronic ignition - |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> I have Klaus's system on the bottom plugs on my 0-320 EZ and during a
recent
>jug off inspection We were pleased to find that side of the piston and rings
>were much cleaner than the top, almost polished. I have fine wire plugs on
>the top.I had much better luck w/ the plasma system then the mag. IE no
>maintenance to the plasma and 2 overhauls to the mag. Next mag o/h will not
>happen,I'll go to another plasma.
I think this is a good move. Some builders I've spoken with
are eager to jerk off both mags and put on electronics. 90%+
of your performance gains are with the first electronic
ignition. Since you PAID for two mags and/or the discount
for not getting mags is not equal to their replacment cost,
consider putting on one electronic igntion. Run one mag util
it barfs. Put the other mag back on and run it to belly-up
time . . . THEN put on the second electronic.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>This comes up often, usually by someone who has gotten some great "deals"
>on avionics and who tries to make it all work harmoniously. Every attempt
>I know of to mix and match avionics of different voltages has, sooner or
>later, been abandoned by those who tried.
>
>Were you living in Montana or some other cold spot, I'd suggest 28 volts
>to compensate for the effects of low temps on batteries. As an added
>aside, you could then use that voltage to advantage and reduce the weight
>of your plane by a few pounds by running lighter gauge wire.
A common misconception about batteries . . . the goal when
cranking an engine is to maximize the energy transfer from
the battery's chemistry to the starter motor. The biggest
impediment to this transfer is a combination of resistances
in battery, wire, contactors and terminals.
When GA (most notibly Cessna) went all 28 v it was mostly for
reasons of economy . . . one size alternator/battery fits all
from C-150 to C-210 . . . yes, there was some notible improvement
in cranking at cold weather with 28v . . .
In retrospect, this was mostly due to poor attention paid to
reducing system impedances. A little clean up work with choice
of wire sizes and hardware location and upgrading the starter
which had roots in the 1938 6v Jeep, there would have been
no detectable difference in cranking performance of the two
systems.
Today, the modern RG battery is head and shoulders above
the flooded batteries upon which many of us base our perceptions
of battery and system performance.
When I was helping B&C test batteries to gain STC on their
RG products for TC aircraft, we put two brand new batteries
in the freezer overnight. One was a Concord flooded product,
the other was a B&C RG. In the morning, we loaded each battery
in turn with 300 amps . . . about half again more current than
it takes to crank an engine.
The flooded battery started out at 8 volts and slid downhill
from there. At the end of 30 seconds of loading, the RG batttery
had not yet fallen to 8 volts!
This can be attributed to one and only one attribute of the
RG technology . . . very low internal resistance compared
to flooded batteries at ALL temperatures.
>But you don't. You live in Florida. Go with the 12 volt system.
>Everything else being equal, 12 volt equipment is more plentiful and
>often cheaper.
. . . not often, ALWAYS. You need to consider beyond the
cost of acquisition. Cost of ownership for a 28 v system are
real cash and time suckers compared to 14 v.
>Second suggestion. Wait until a few months before the airframe is
>finished, painted and the engine in place BEFORE buying avionics. I've
>brand new Loran and ADF units that are virtually boat anchors. Good
>deals when I bought them, probably just like you, expecting I'd have the
>thing built and flying "in no time"
Excellent advice. Electronics advances faster than any other
commodity . . . I wouldn't buy a battery or a radio until just
before you're ready to install them. Use jumper cables to a
car/boat/tractor battery or an alternator simulator to test
the airplane's systems. Buy a fresh new battery to install
before first light under the wheels.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Want to jump or charge your 24 volt battery - consider a
>charger that is 6, 12 & 24 or a 24 volt only. If you need to jump
>start it it takes two, care and really long cables or you need to
>have the proper high $$$ adapter to plug into a power unit.
Ground power is a strong driving issue . . . you can jump
start your 14 v airplane from a vehicle.
>I don't find the worry about using converters powering gauges
>such as fuel pressure since a 24volt battery is still using less
>amperage, it should last longer.
24 v batteries are two 12 v batteries in series with smaller
cells. For the same ENERGY storage, you need the same number
of pounds of lead and acid . . . but a 24 volt battery has
more plastic in it and is probably heavier/larger by some
small amount than the equivalent 12 v battery. Given the
smaller plate area/chemistry per cell, I've noted that the
24 v battery is less tolerant to deep discharge cycles
than the 12 v with fatter cells . . . all other things being equal,
I think the 12 v battery will outlast the 24 in similar service.
>Light bulbs will cost more (24 V) unless there is more of a
>quantity built for 24 volt than 12 volt.
12 v lamps are made in tens of millions . . . further, you
have more options for some REALLY nice exterior lighting.
Taked for example the lamp you can see at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/4352.JPG
is about 2" tall, 5" wide, puts out lots of light on 55
watts (about 4.5 amps drain on system) and fits very
nicely in the leading edge of a wing. Further, it's
a modern, automotive halogen that will probably last
for the lifetime of your airplane.
>I do like the more watts offered by 24 volt comm's example;
>KX-155 or 165 7.5 watts (12 volt) broadcast verses 10 watts (24 volt).
>KX-196 or 197 - the 12 volt is 10 watts vs 16 watts for 24 volt.
>The advantage is - usually - range and clarity.
. . . take a peek at:
http://www.decibelproducts.com/mrktng-eng/scripts/freespace.cfm
This is a free space path loss calculator that can tell you
what the theroetical talk distance is between your radio
and somebody elses.
Assume you have 1 watt of effective radiated power (this is
30 dbmw in engineer-speak). Assume the guy you want to talk
to has a receiver capable of hearing a 5 MICROVOLT signal
(not difficult to do) . . . this signal would have an energy
level of -123 dbmw for a total allowable path loss of
153 dbmw
Go to that calculator and enter distances using 120 Mhz as
the frequency of interest and you'll find a freespace
talking distance of 6000 miles.
Now, there ARE other factors that ADD to your losses including
coax and antenna efficiency. Also local noise at the other
end competes with your arriving signal. Sooo . . . lets assume
that you're at 15,000 feet and talking with somebody who is
50 miles away (not over the horizon for you) . . . and he can
just read your signal when you use your 1 watt transmitter.
Going back to the calculator we find that the path loss over
50 miles is 112 db. Let us say you switch over to a 2 watt
transmitter . . .this means your signal at the other end gets
a 3 db boost. Now you can tolerate a 115 db loss between you
an the other guy and still be heard with the same clarity.
Back at the calculator we find that 70 miles is the range
for doubling your power output. Further, 50-70 miles is SO
small compared to the free-space range that one must conclude
that other factors have a strong effect on range of communciations.
Curvature of the earth, noise at receiving end and poor
selection of antennas and/or feedlines all stack up to
attenuate your signal.
It's much easier to talk further with system efficiency
cleanup than to boost transmitter power output.
>
>Two 5 amp 14.7 volt converters weigh less then 3 lbs. so,
>if a back-up is needed it's no big deal.
This is true . . . with reservations. There are electronic
components out there that let you build very light down-converters
that are also very efficient. However, they are strong
oscillators (read transmitters) that can interfere
with other systems on board . . . most notably receivers.
Unless the converter has been tested for aircraft applications,
approach with caution . . . I'm not saying don't try it
but do enough testing of your finished installation to make
sure there are no adverse effects from a relatively
unknown product.
>With all the newer call for 12/14 volt stuff, it's a trade.
>I did it because my engine came so equipped and knew
>of some of the advantages of 24/28 systems.
>One of them is how long you can crank the engine.
>However, I have always felt that if the engine doesn't
>start up in 1 to 4 blades you might have a problem that's
>being overlooked. But I want that power if I ever need a restart
>in the air.
Excellent point. I used to be able to push-start
my 6-cyl Chevy out in the street by myself. I could
just get it rolling, jump in and pop the critter into
low and it would fire off on the first cylinder that
rolled over. Keeping an engine finely tuned and understanding
a particular engine's idiosyncrasies can make a BIG
difference in starter wear, battery life, etc.
>All in all it's a personal choice but the 24volt system might
>cost as much as $500 if done correctly (that includes a 24 volt
>battery charger.) And weight savings on a Long is 16.5
>pounds by my old calculations (1983).
I'm really interested in this weight savings number. Starters
in the ol' Prestolite pig don't get any lighter at 28V, batteries
with the same ENGERY (12V/32 a.h. versus 24V/16 a.h.) are within
a few percent of each other for weight. The alternators share the
same frames so in spite of the fact that they put out 2x energy,
they weigh within ounces of each other. All things being
equal except voltage, only drops in wire size contribute greatly
to weight reduction.
Now, if you make a swap to B&C equipment from certified junk,
AND go to 28 v, the weight savings can be spectacular . . .
but it didn't happed because of system voltage change . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries - Warning to Gel battery owners |
servers.net>
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Remember you cannot jump gel batteries. You will "short" a cell, which
>may not be the technical description but is the effective description.
>
>I paid for three gel batteries before a Roseburg, Oregon welding supply
>dealer answered my question:
> "How do I treat this gel battery?"
> "Just like any other battery," he answered.
> "So it is OK to jump it?"
> "Hell no, you can't jump a gel battery."
I'd be interested in talking to this giver of advice to see
if he understands what a "gel" battery is.
A long time ago, in a galaxy not too far away, someone
wondered if flooded batteries could be a little less sloppy
imitation of Jello.
The idea worked . . . sorta. The batteries were indeed
less sloppy but they still leaked if turned upside down
or if you poked a hole in the side. Further, their low
temperature performance wasn't as good as a flooded battery.
Some years later, another thinker in the ways of batteries
was probably watching a TV commercial for Brawny paper
towels and wondered if a lead-acid battery wouldn't perform
better if the electrolyte remained liquid. Instead of slowing
it down in jello, suppose the liquid were completely contained
in a high surface area medium like paper towel, or perhaps
fiberglas.
(As an aside, consider fabricating a cube of .001"
diameter glass beads. That means 1000 beads along
each edge. The number of beads required to build
the cube would be 1000 x 1000 x 1000 or 1 billion beads.
The surface area of a sphere is 4 x pi x radius squared.
This calculates out to 3.14 x 10 to the minus 6 square
inches/sphere. Multiply this times 1 billion spheres
and we get a total surface area of 3140 square inches of
INTERNAL surface area! This gives you some idea of the
magic that makes an RG battery work. We know that liquids
have a certain affinity for cling to a surface . . . the
above exercise shows how easy it is to get a lot of surface
area in a small volume. Try the excercise again using
1/2 mil diameter beads.)
Further, if the liquid WERE totally contained in a
partially saturated, glass mat . . . what would, or
should happen to bubbles that are driven out of the
water by charging the battery?
This thinking was the birth experience of the gas recombinant,
starved electrolyte, vented yet sealed lead acid battery.
This is NOT a gel-cell device, yet the majority of people
who sell these things don't know it. Gel cells are still
around but RARE. They are popular in some deep-discharge
configurations for wheelchairs, etc.
>I have forgotten to turn off the master switch a couple times since, but
>never had to buy another gel battery after I started disconnecting the two
>battery cables, jumped the starter directly, and after the engine was
>running, reconnected the two cables.
Now, let's consider the physics of "jumpering" any battery
to deal with a totally flat battery. A dead battery will
draw a lot of current from a constant voltage source like
a hefty alternator . . . it doesn't matter what kind of
battery it is. A gel-cell had a higher internal impedance
than this flooded cousins . . . much higher than a modern
RG battery. This means that ANY current, charge or discharge,
results in higher internal losses due to heating. It is
conceivable that a totally dead, gel-cell battery might
suffer ill consequences for having been jumpered to a
vehicle with a fully charged battery and the engine running.
The question for the moment is, what is the true nature of
the battery that started this conversation? You have to go
out of your way to FIND a true gel-cell battery manufactured
sources but they are not the Panasonics, Powersonics,
Hawker, or Yuasas of the battery marketing world. Irrespective
of what any battery seller might say about sealed
lead-acid products, it is most unlikely that the battery is
really a gel-cell. RG batteries are quite tolerant of
high recharge rates and the few seconds of connection needed
to crank an engine are not likely to heat things up even in
a relatively tired battery.
>I have not seen this advice in print, but it was a costly lesson to
>learn buying new gel batteries.
>
>As Ben Franklin said, "Learn from other's mistakes; you do not have time
>to learn them all yourself."
Ben was a critical thinker and he would want to know more
about the conditions that precipitated his unhappy
experience with batteries. I can tell you that
multi-million dollar biz-jets get their batteries (Ni-cad,
RG and flooded) jumpered to ground power carts capable of
thousands of amp output with no ill effects. We don't have
enough data to deduce the cause of our friend's battery
failures. It is insufficient and erroneous to put out a blanket
statement about "jumpering a gel-cell battery" . . . especially
when the product in question probably wasn't a gel-cell device.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Panel power jack for hand-helds . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>What size wire and fuse for cigar lighter
>type 12v outlet? to be used for portable radio or gps.
How come such a hoggy connector? Cigar lighters are
designed for 10A or better . . . and of course their
diameter is commensurate with the size of the lighter
that plugs into them. They're well suited to lighting
cigars but by-in-large, don't make a good electrical
connector in a car much less an airplane.
You can see a photo of some Radio Shack parts that
are much more suited to this task at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/hh_pwr.jpg
Yes, I know it's preferable to have the powered
pins be female as opposed to the male pins . . . these
critters don't come this way. The risk of unintentional
shorting is quite small (the plug body that fits
into the jack housing is all plastic on the end) and
even if you DID get a short, this appication should be
fused at 3A or less.
Cigar lighters depend on friction to hold plug
in place, this connector set uses a metal retaining
ring threaded down on threads for the jack. It doesn't
take much corrosion or tension on a cirgar lighter plug
to make it disconnect . . . the combo I've suggeseted
is smaller and VERY positive engagement both electrically
and mechanically.
Just cut the cigar lighter plug off your hand-held's
power cord and install the new connector. Quite often
you can purchase mating connectors for the external
power jack on your handheld and fabricate a power
cord unique to your airplane . . . most of the time
they need to be shorter than the usual automotive
power cable when used in a cockpit.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel power jack for hand-helds . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Another thing about cigar lighters - if you must use them , dont mount them
>horizontally where anything can fall into them. A friend of mine (Europa
>Flyer) was on the way back from Prague (to UK) last year. One of his
>electrical circuits kept blowing (it happened to be the one with all the nav
>equipment - in his case it was the glass cockpit display). In the end he had
>to do without the equipment and fly on the basic instruments.
>
>The cause of the problem - you guessed it - a foreign metallic body in the
>cigar lighter !!!
The interesting thing about this anecdote is the fact that
one kind of failure in the system (shorted power jack for
the cockpit hand-held equipment) precipitated other
failures. In this case, too many devices sharing the
same protected circuit.
Builders in love with acres-o-breakers risk a falling out
when the available panel space and/or budget for breaker
dollars run short. The most conservative philosophy for
system architecture dictates a single protected feeder
for each device in the airplane that needs power from the
system.
Fuse-blocks give you the opportunity to have lots of
spare slots for future growth at first flight. While
it's never wrong to pile up on a single breaker from
a fire-safety perspective, it can be bad news when too
many things go dark at the same time.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries - Warning to Gel battery owners servers.net> |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>> Robert: Here's one. I have a Hawker, Odyssey Dry Cell battery. Not wet, not
>> Gel and not RG ? The dealer has had one in his pickup truck starting his
>> V-8 for two years now with no problems. Its the same model as mine and the
>> size of the standard 19 Amp. Powersonic. Whats the scoop on this one. Kri
The Odyssey is an RG battery . . . it's assembled with Hawker's
traditional "extra care" that exemplifies their Genesis and other
RG products. Whether or not it's good value remains to be seen in
the marketplace. I've got a 24 a.h. Genesis in my GMC Saffari van
and I've run them for years in other vehicles. It's a nice product
but not magic . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom Batteries again!! |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Are there any electronic experts out there??. I want a trickle charger for
>this pack, similar to the one that I use on my Futaba radio for ther Radio
>Control models, does anybody have an idea where I could get one for this
>unit. The output on the pack is 12 volts, 600ma.
Go buy any 12v wall-wart from Radio Shack or other consumer electronics
supplier. Fit with plug to fit your radio. Clip one of the wires in the
connection cord and measure the current flow while plugged into your radio's
charger jack. If over 50-60 milliampers, put resistors in this gap to
lower it to that value. This will give you a duplicate capability for
the 12-14 hour recharge power supplies that have been offered with
ni-cad powered systems for decades.
BTW, you can also have the pack reubilt with Ni-Mh cells at up to
1600 mAh. See:
http://www.batteriesamerica.com/newpage3.htm
Then you need to adjust your wall-wart for 150-175 mA.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries - Warning to Gel battery owners |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>> RG batteries are quite tolerant of
>> high recharge rates and the few seconds of connection needed
>> to crank an engine are not likely to heat things up even in
>> a relatively tired battery.
>>
>
>That's good to know. I recently jumped mine and can attest it suffered no
>apparent ill effects. At least I think it is an RG Battery. It's a "Gill
>Aero 30 Sealed Battery" which Aircraft Spruce terms a "Gell Cell Battery".
>However, I would infer from Bob's comments that it's really an RG.
>
>I do have one nagging concern about my Gill Aero 30, assuming it's really an
>RG: Aircraft Spruce's catalogue has some language in it (see p. 362 under
>"Sealed immobilized Electrolyte Batteries (Gel Type)") suggesting that the
>charging voltage must be precisely regulated at 13.8 v. +- 0.2 volts to
>avoid shortening the life of these batteries. They recommend a $200
>regulator to accomplish this. My question is, is this true? Does it apply
>only to bona fide gel cells or does it apply also to RG batteries? My
>charging system charges at about 14.5 v. Do I need a $200.00 regulator?
>Finally, if I forget and leave the master on and need to recharge the
>battery in the hanger, do I need a special charger to avoid zonking it? The
>Aircraft Spruce Catalogue implies that this is the case for "gell cell and
>sealed batteries" --see the write up for the "Electronic Power Systems"
>charger, same page.
The conventional wisdom being circulated conforms to
the fondest wishes of the folk who build and sell batteries.
"Treat my product with tender loving care and it will
give you the best performance possible." This always
begs the question, "how far outside the envelope of
TLC will the product still provide satisfactory performance?"
We know that an RG battery (or any other lead-acid battery)
will eventually achieve 100% charge when maintained at 13.8
volts at room temperature. We also know that automotive and
aircraft OEMs have favored 14.2 to 14.4 volts as a level
that speeds up recovery of a battery's state of charge soon
after the engine starts . . . the higher voltage also favors
performance in cold weather.
A couple of years ago, I purchased a used GMC Saffari van
and until September a year ago, had no occasion to check on
the health of the electrical system. When the flooded battery
barfed, I stuck in a used and several times deep-cycled RG
battery I had purchased from B&C to power portable test
equipment in some testing I was doing on the Beechjet. The
battery was just laying around the shop so I decided to
use it up in my van.
After installation, I did a quick check of the charging
voltage and was astounded to find it running 15.1 volts!
Hmmmmm . . . how long had it been that high? Did the
elevated voltage barf the flooded battery? The date
code on the flooded battery was over three years old.
The regulator was built in to a 100A alternator and I
wasn't eager to replace the thing. I decided to leave it
and see what happened.
14 months later, the alternator barfed and I had to replace
it. The new charging voltage is 14.4 volts. The RG battery
is still there and about to enter its second winter
of operation. I also know that when we tested the RG
batteries for B&C's STC, one of the tests the FAA asked
for was to show resistance to thermal runaway. This involves
putting 16.0 volts on the battery and see what happens.
Well . . . not much. The battery soaked up some more charge
but in less than an hour, the current going into the battery
dropped to less than 100 milliamperes. The battery warmed up
less than 1 degree C.
Now, all of the above is anecdotal. The experience I
can share speaks to observations on two batteries. However,
there is a strong suggestion from these observations that
RG batteries are not fragile creatures to be pampered
lest they sigh and die.
The short answer to the question above is, "no" a $200
regulator is not required . . . it may "help" but I'm
beginning to suspect that "helping" means 24 months of
service as opposed to perhaps 22 months of service. The
real bottom line of battery reliability in airplanes is
to KNOW what it's capacity is by either periodic testing
after one year -OR- periodic replacement at cycles which
insure e-bus capacity equal to or greater than fuel
capacity. The real trick here is consdiered preventative
maintenance, not agonizing over how well your regulator
works.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: [c-a] Panel power jack for hand-helds . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>>
>> >What size wire and fuse for cigar lighter
>> >type 12v outlet? to be used for portable radio or gps.
>>
>I just had to replace the fuse of the cigar lighter in my Caddillac.
>It's 20A.
>
But don't forget . . . fuses and breakers protect wire.
Wire carries current for the loads you anticipate running
from the circuit. A hand-held radio would be very hard
pressed to draw more than 1 amp from any source. Wiring
your hand held power jack with 22AWG wire fused at 2A
will be quite adequate to the task for which the jack
was installed. That is unless you plan to light cigaretts
from it when not using the radios in which case you'll
need 14AWG and 15A . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 18 Amp Powersonic |
ear.navy.mil>
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> I just experienced a battery failure with my new 18 Amp Powersonic.
>Yesterday, I stopped by the airport and flipped on the "master" to find
>almost total darkness on everything. The battery had a grand total of 5 VDC
>indicating voltage (no, I did not leave my master on). I got out the
>battery charger and set it to 12VDC @ 15 AMPS for about 30 minutes or so
>then switched it to 12VDC @ 2 AMPS for several hours. At that time, I
>showed 12.2 VDC static on the EIS. An hour later, I showed 12 VDC static.
>I've been told that I toasted the battery when
>I first put the charger at 15 AMPS. Also, I should "NEVER" select more than
>2 AMPS at the charger. The battery already had a problem so, charging
>wasn't the main cause (that was the first time I've ever put a charger on
>the battery. My Key West charging system is putting out 14.2 VDC normally.
I'm not sure this is a valid deduction. By-in-large, vent-regulated,
sealed lead-acid, recombinant-gas batteries are quite tolerant of
high rate recharge.
Consider that "charging" reverses a chemical reaction by pushing electrons
into as system that was discharged by pulling electrons out. Starting
and engine can take hundreds of amps of current flow (albeit for seconds)
that causes a whole lot of molecules to change state as they give up
their available electrons. The battery is not a perfect device . . . it
has some internal resistance that adds to external resistances in the
system (like wire, contactors, bolted joints, etc) to reduce the amount
of energy available to crank the engine.
The VERY low internal resistance of RG batteries is what makes them
so powerful for their size. This same internal resistance has an
effect on recharging too . . . some of the energy that might otherwise
be used to trip some molecules to their charged state will warm the
battery up internally . . . resistors do one and one thing only with
energy that moves through them . . . warm up.
The admonition "never select more that 2 amps at the charger" argues
with how things work in the airplane (or any other vehicle). As soon
as the engine starts, the bus voltage goes to whatever the regulator is
set for . . . current flowing into the battery's chemistry is whatever
it is going to be at that bus voltage. If the battery is only partially
discharged due to normal cranking, the current goes up pretty high because
the battery's internal resistance is still quite low and it will readily
accept charging. If the battery is flat from a total discharge, connecting
it to a constant voltage like a running alternator may not produce much
inital charge . . . the battery's internal resistance is much higher
when it's completely discharge.
The internal resistance can do only one thing with the energy you're
trying to stuff back into the battery . . . get warm. This
is a transient condition . . As the battery begins to charge,
the resistance drops which improves on the energy conversion
efficiency. Internal heating during initial phases of charging
a totally flat battery can be detrimental to the cells in some
cases: Very small batteries (camcorder, cellphone, etc) may have
some initial charging limits due to their inherent higher internal
resistances and low mass. Batteries used to crank engines are pretty
hard to
warm up and much more tolerant of increased losses during rapid
recharge.
Consider the case where an engine has been hard to start and you've
used up most of the battery's capacity trying to get it going. When
you finally do get it started, the bus jumps to 14.2 (or wherever the
regulator is set) and recharging of the battery will begin . . . limited
only by internal resistance of the battery and the output rating of
your alternator . . . sometimes this current is well over 20 amps
even for a small battery.
The concern about battery chargers is how well their voltage is
regulated while a totally discharged battery is getting its chemistry
awake and ready to go to work. Unless the charger mentioned soared
really up there . . . like over 15-16 volts during initial phases
of recharge, I think it unlikely that the recharge scenario described
toasted the battery . . . the way to check is to put a voltmeter
on the battery and watch it for the first few minutes of rechaged.
Depending on voltage regulation built into the charger it MAY
go pretty high initially (like over 15 volts) but it should come
down in ten minutes or so as the battery beings stirring back to
life.
I think most RG batteries roll belly-up because they loose some of
the water from a cell. Remember, these batteries have very little
moisture in them . . . the fiberglas separators are only 80-90%
saturated when the battery is new. If the factory was having a bad-
battery-day and didn't get the cells wet enough, the battery may
be pretty fragile. Also, the cell might be compromised and liquid
may have been expelled causing pre-mature failure. The battery
in this story wasn't run down by leaving a load on it . . . it was
DOA for a routine start up. This suggests the battery had already
departed to where all good batteries go when they die . . . this
makes charger behavior irrelevant to the story.
It would be interesting to do a diagnosis on how this battery
failed. If you're not going to turn it back in for recycling
and/or warranty claim, I'd like to have it to disect.
As an interesting aside to this discussion, check out Bolder
TMF batteries and some of the things coming over the hill
at: http://www.boldertmf.com/news/news_details.asp?ID=25
These are VERY tiny cells with VERY low internal resistances.
If there was ever a seal lead-acid battery that might favor
being pampered, this has to be a good candidate. Yet they
are finding their way into some pretty heavy-duty applications.
They are not going to be beneficiaries of smart charging
systems. They'll get stuck on a constant voltage bus and the
recharge current will be what it will be . . .
I have seen a few battery sites caution about rapid recharge
of RG batteries . . . Hawker (Genesis, Oddysey, Cyclon battery
guys) doesn't caution the system designer to pamper these batteries
with itty-bitty chargers. In fact, there's a statement in
the engineering manual specifically allowing the battery to
be recharged at whatever rate it will accept on a constant
voltage bus. I think the cautions come from dealers and
distributors that don't understand their products (like
calling them "gel cells") . . . and may be looking for
ways to mitigate their warranty hassles . . . there's nothing
WRONG with soft recharging but it's not necessary either.
When in doubt . . . go to the engieering data for the brand
of battery you're working with and see what the manufacturer
says. Dealers are among the most unreliable sources of good
info on batteries.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric on a Budget... a proposal |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> . . . . I want an IFR capable, all electric
>plane. The only architecture that has an automatic full scale backup uses
>the B&C SD-20 with their standby regulator that senses when the main bus
>voltage drops off due to a primary alternator failure and thereby gets
>activated. No thoughts, no pilot action, seamless transition, lots of money
>and weight. Overkill for my application. The architecture I am proposing
>does have many options that provide for three independent pathways to power
>the essential bus.
>Where did I end up on this issue? I am buying all the parts to "make it
>so." I have also sent a hard copy of this architecture to Bob Nuckolls
>asking for feedback. I still am a year or so away from completion so all is
>subject to change based on better information.
>> Anyway, here are my thoughts: what you are proposing should work, and it
>> looks like you have planned for most contingencies, but I *personally*
>> still have a problem with ANY of these multi-bus approaches...
simplicity. My
>> thinking is that any sort of electrical malfunction or failure is a
>> stressful event. It will undoubtedly happen at an inopportune time thus
>> adding to the stress. I have experienced enough stressful times when
>> flying . . .
"most contingencies?" . . . "three independent pathways?"
Guys . . . you're letting decades of "dark and stormy night"
stories played out in certified aircraft drive unfounded
fears and scenearios to the top of your architecture decisions.
Virtually every known reason for an electrical system malfunction
has been addressed in the variety of system architectures
we've illustrated over the years. Yes, things MIGHT break
but there is no reason for any failure of an electrical system
component to precipitate an electrical emergency. Please review
chapter 18 in our book. You guys are building the best airplanes
to have ever flown. Certified ships smoke a lot because they
are BUILT and MAINTAINED that way. Further, they feature components
overhaulable only to ORIGNAL configuation as designed in 1965.
Please do your best to use our experience in certified aviation
to evolve AWAY from their mistakes . . . not ACCOMODATE them.
It's not difficult. Before you start pushing things around on the
wiring diagrams, tell me of any single failure event with
any of our power distribution diagrams that creates a tense
situation in flight that has no simple resolution. If you have
good reason to depart from the published suggestions, then
we need to fix the drawings.
Let's do this like critical thinking scientists, not pilots
and mechanics educated and trained to government standards.
This isn't a "not invented here" protest rather an invitation
to participate in critical review of contemporary thinking
to advance the state of our art . . . Bottom line is, wire
your airplane any way you wish . . . but be aware that lots
of folks are listening in. I get a couple of wiring diagrams
a month from folks asking, "what's wrong with THIS way?"
If we don't have solid advice to give, let's fix the advice
before we create dozens of variations on a theme based on
nothing better than our distrust of aviation hardware
and a lack of understanding about how to fix it.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Knight <knightair(at)lv.rmci.net> |
| Subject: | Knight Upholstery for Rocket |
Rocket Builders:
I have moved to Las Vegas. Please note my new telephone number and e-mail
address.
I have been in the upholstery business for 28 years and have been making
upholstery products for kitplanes for 16 years. I have interior kits
available for the Harmon Rocket. I also have cabin covers and other items.
I am the supplier of upholstery products for several kitplane manufacturers.
A list of other kitplane interior products available upon request.
For more information, call Knight Aircraft Interiors, Inc., at (702)
207-6681 or e-mail me at knightair(at)lv.rmci.net. If you e- mail for
information, please mention either "Knight" or "Upholstery" in your
reference line so I can give your request my immediate attention. Photos
available upon request.
Sincerely,
KNIGHT AIRCRAFT INTERIORS, INC.
"Fly by Knight" Upholstery Products
Sam Knight
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Lancaster Seminar Date Set |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
The Lancaster weekend seminar date has been set at Nov 18/19, 2000.
Facilities arrangments are being finalized and folks that have already
signed up will be asked to re-confirm their reservations and to watch
the website for published driving directions to the program facility
along with a list of nearyby motels for those who need them.
Anyone who has not considered taking advantage of this program (or
others around the country like it) are invited to check out the
seminars description and sign-up page at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/seminars.html
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Special AUTOCAD offer to our friends on the lists . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
If you'd like to get your feet wet with the world's most
popular PC based CAD system REALLY cheap, check out . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/acadr12.html
This will stay up on the website for a few days only and
is not linked by any other pages on the internet.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Good wiring practice |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Do you have any views about locating starter and battery contactors on the
>cabin side of the firewall? Some RV builders are doing or considering this.
>However the counter argument is that if one fails it would dump toxic smoke
>into the cockpit.
The more compelling reason for putting starter contactor
on firewall is to reduce number of firewall penetrations
of FAT wires . . . you tie the alternator into the system
using in-line fused jumper on the powered side of the battery
contactor (as per diagrams on website and in book). If
you put contactor inside, both starter and alternator wires
have to come through firewall.
>I guess you will have a good view on failure rates, and will know for sure
>whether it's possible for them to create toxic fumes.
>
A whole lot of decisions have been driven by the
toxic fumes scenario in a machine where one is
several orders of magntitude more likely to break
a sweat because of failure of of some appliances due
to poor system architecture and lack of backups.
It's sweating pilots that are more likely to make
poor decisions or find themselves tasked beyond
skills and equipment . . . if you don't smoke in
the cockpit, don't upholster your seats in
double-knit nylon material and use plenty of fuses
to protect little wires, the liklihood of serious
smoke is very close to zero.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | New Power Distribution Diagram |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
I've had several requests over the past few weeks to incorporate
separate concepts described with individual articles into a power
distribution diagram illustrating their relationships to the whole
airplane.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/errata.html
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Good wiring practice - ERROR CORRECTION |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>>Do you have any views about locating starter and battery contactors on the
>>cabin side of the firewall? Some RV builders are doing or considering this.
>>However the counter argument is that if one fails it would dump toxic smoke
>>into the cockpit.
>
> The more compelling reason for putting starter contactor
> on firewall is to reduce number of firewall penetrations
> of FAT wires . . . you tie the alternator into the system
> using in-line fused jumper on the powered side of the STARTER [was
"battery"]
> contactor (as per diagrams on website and in book). If
> you put contactor inside, both starter and alternator wires
> have to come through firewall.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
Does anyone know about the Hartzell 3 blade prop Model 8C-C3YR-1A/7690?
I have an oportunity to buy one for F-! Rocket # 0001. I will be using the
IO540
C4B5 tuned to 260 HP.
It is now on a Stodacher used for aerobatics.
Is this a good option for me.. The price is right..
Thanks L K Daudt2(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
You should ask the f1 guys that one.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
In a message dated 10/21/2000 5:20:44 PM Central Daylight Time,
Hr2pilot(at)aol.com writes:
> You should ask the f1 guys that one.
> John
I thought thats what he was doing as this list is for the Rocket be it a F1
or a harmon Rocket. Also propwise the aircraft are so similiar they could be
the same. Granted if you running a larger engine or something it could be
different, but this is the standard engine configue for both the F1 and the
Harmon.
Chris
F1 rocket # 000
PS Larry give mark a call, he will help you out or you may have to call the
manufacter. I am just thinking that since its an aerobatic prop its not
going to be the perfect prop for the rocket as it won't give great cruise
performance.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Mokry <RobMokry(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
Yes, similar....Hmm......Imitation is the highest form of flattery!
CW9371(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/21/2000 5:20:44 PM Central Daylight Time,
> Hr2pilot(at)aol.com writes:
>
> > You should ask the f1 guys that one.
> > John
>
> I thought thats what he was doing as this list is for the Rocket be it a F1
> or a harmon Rocket. Also propwise the aircraft are so similiar they could be
> the same. Granted if you running a larger engine or something it could be
> different, but this is the standard engine configue for both the F1 and the
> Harmon.
>
> Chris
> F1 rocket # 000
>
> PS Larry give mark a call, he will help you out or you may have to call the
> manufacter. I am just thinking that since its an aerobatic prop its not
> going to be the perfect prop for the rocket as it won't give great cruise
> performance.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
In a message dated 10/21/00 6:57:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
RobMokry(at)pacbell.net writes:
<< Yes, similar....Hmm......Imitation is the highest form of flattery! >>
specially when you improve a good thing like the f1 did do the harmom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
That prop won't work
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
I saw your airframe and I a'm ashamed of Team Rocket
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lui/Signco <signco(at)flash.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
I am sure you if you give Mark a quick call he will direct you to the correct source
if he
is not absolutedly sure.
He is always willing to answer any F-1, Harmon, R-V, or any aircraft questions.
He strives
to help, not to
throw stones at others. When I see comments like that "flattery" guy, I wonder
what kind
guys are getting into
aviation these days. Think about it, where the RV design came from? - from another
modified
design. Where the HR
came from? - from another modified design. Where the F-1 came from? - from another
modified
design.
Who cares who designed or re-designed what. The most important point is, let's
all get in
the air and enjoy what we
all love. I consider Vans, John H. and Mark F. men of class. Let's all real men
get to
work and get those those birds
in the air and ignore the high school level comments by some new folks that should
be buying
different toys, not airplanes.
Happy building and flying.
Luis
> From: LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com
> Subject: Rocket-List: Rocket Prop???
>
>
> Does anyone know about the Hartzell 3 blade prop Model 8C-C3YR-1A/7690?
> I have an oportunity to buy one for F-! Rocket # 0001. I will be using the
> IO540
> C4B5 tuned to 260 HP.
> It is now on a Stodacher used for aerobatics.
> Is this a good option for me.. The price is right..
> Thanks L K Daudt2(at)aol.com
>
> From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Rocket Prop???
>
>
> You should ask the f1 guys that one.
> John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Deffner" <deffner(at)glade.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
VERY WELL STATED LUIS!! Now we'll see if they listened.
Live long and prosper, David
Ps Hoping for an engine for Christmas.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lui/Signco <signco(at)flash.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 11:07 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Prop???
>
> I am sure you if you give Mark a quick call he will direct you to the
correct source if he
> is not absolutedly sure.
> He is always willing to answer any F-1, Harmon, R-V, or any aircraft
questions. He strives
> to help, not to
> throw stones at others. When I see comments like that "flattery" guy, I
wonder what kind
> guys are getting into
> aviation these days. Think about it, where the RV design came from? -
from another modified
> design. Where the HR
> came from? - from another modified design. Where the F-1 came from? -
from another modified
> design.
> Who cares who designed or re-designed what. The most important point is,
let's all get in
> the air and enjoy what we
> all love. I consider Vans, John H. and Mark F. men of class. Let's all
real men get to
> work and get those those birds
> in the air and ignore the high school level comments by some new folks
that should be buying
> different toys, not airplanes.
> Happy building and flying.
> Luis
>
> > From: LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com
> > Subject: Rocket-List: Rocket Prop???
> >
> >
> > Does anyone know about the Hartzell 3 blade prop Model 8C-C3YR-1A/7690?
> > I have an oportunity to buy one for F-! Rocket # 0001. I will be using
the
> > IO540
> > C4B5 tuned to 260 HP.
> > It is now on a Stodacher used for aerobatics.
> > Is this a good option for me.. The price is right..
> > Thanks L K Daudt2(at)aol.com
> >
> > From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Rocket Prop???
> >
> >
> > You should ask the f1 guys that one.
> > John
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
| From: | Captain Kaos <kaos(at)captainkaos.com> |
Sounds like you may have some aussie in you Luis
We all get a long down under
Probly to busy just having fun
> I am sure you if you give Mark a quick call he will direct you to the correct
> source if he
> is not absolutedly sure.
> He is always willing to answer any F-1, Harmon, R-V, or any aircraft
> questions. He strives
> to help, not to
> throw stones at others. When I see comments like that "flattery" guy, I
> wonder what kind
> guys are getting into
> aviation these days. Think about it, where the RV design came from? - from
> another modified
> design. Where the HR
> came from? - from another modified design. Where the F-1 came from? - from
> another modified
> design.
> Who cares who designed or re-designed what. The most important point is,
> let's all get in
> the air and enjoy what we
> all love. I consider Vans, John H. and Mark F. men of class. Let's all real
> men get to
> work and get those those birds
> in the air and ignore the high school level comments by some new folks that
> should be buying
> different toys, not airplanes.
> Happy building and flying.
> Luis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
Yup.. Thats what Ive done..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
C ris.. Im thinking that you are probably correct. Ill give Mark a call..
Thanks Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
Who is this message from anyway?????
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
Rog.....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BKing99994(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Please remove my name |
Please remove my name and E-mail address from your mailing list.
Thank you,
Brian King
BKing99994(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
In a message dated 10/21/00 4:55:24 PM Central Daylight Time,
LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com writes:
<< oes anyone know about the Hartzell 3 blade prop Model 8C-C3YR-1A/7690?
I have an oportunity to buy one for F-! Rocket # 0001. I will be using the
IO540
C4B5 tuned to 260 HP.
It is now on a Stodacher used for aerobatics.
Is this a good option for me.. The price is right..
Thanks L K Daudt2(at)aol.com
>>
Hi Larry:
I suspect that particular prop is tuned more for low speeds (not enough helix
angle in the blades). You ship would have good acceleration and vertical
penetration, but would suffer in the top end area.
The hub is the right one we spec for a 3 blade, but you'll have to swap out
the blades.
Sorry!
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
The C3YR hub is the short one,an F3YR would fit better
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
In a message dated 10/23/00 8:45:14 AM Central Daylight Time, Hr2pilot writes:
<< The C3YR hub is the short one,an F3YR would fit better >>
Dang!! Not enough caffeine yet today!
Actually, the "I"3 (between H & J) is the correct designation.
As I stated a while back, we can't get a hub/spinner combo to exchange
directly with the 2 blade --- so you can't switch from one to the other
easily. I need a backplate with a reversed flange for this (along with a
different offset). Do any of you fellas know anybody who can make a mold for
a reasonable price?
thx
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket Prop??? |
Thanks john... It looks like I would have to swap out blades which puts the
price out of sight again... Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Lancaster CA seminar - Postponed |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
I'm sorry to have to announce that only 5 of the ordiginal
35 people who signed up for the Lancaster program have
confirmed their resesrvations. I'm now past the deadline
for getting inexpensive airfares and renting the meeting
room facilities.
We'll be e-mailing all of the confirmed reservation holders
today. I'm going to pick a new date after the first of
the year and see what happens the second time around.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Sticking relay with B&C starter. |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Benoit
>
>There are two parts to a relay and these must not be confused.
>
>1) a coil - to activate a high current switch
>2) the high current switch
>
>The diode is used on the coil to stop the reverse current pulse, this only
happens when the coil is released and does not effect the switch part of
the relay.
>
>If the switch part of the relay cannot handle the current being drawn
>by the starter it will have a tendency to weld close or stick.
Not the whole story. It's true that contacts overheat
and degrade when loaded with too much current but 90%
of the time it's not an overcurrent issue. As I write
these words, I've got a test setup running on my workbench
to deduce the reason for sticking relays in the roll trim
system of a bizjet . . . current rating: 5A, motor draw: 1A
life of relay in service: 100-200 hrs and then they stick.
>The best option my be to get a relay with a higher current rating.
>Check the current rating of the starter and multiply this by 1.5 to 2
>(Safety factor), then look for a relay to handle this current.
I've had customers force me to drop a 5A relay in a slot
where I had tested and qualified a 2A relay to tens of thousands
of cycles over full temperature range for the system. My protests
went unheaded and the government blessed DER's signed off on the
change without further testing. They reasoned that if 2A was
"good", 5A was "better".
Within weeks of delivery of first units to the customer and before
the airplanes could be delivered to customers, 5A relays began to
stick . . .
Here's what started this thread . . . .
>>>> Benot LECOQ <lecoqben@club-internet.fr> 10/25/00 11:30AM >>>
> Hello from France
>
> I still get lots of fun flying around my new Cozy and everything is fine.
>
> Nevertherless there a few squawks that come up from time to time.The biggy
>for me is the starter relay that is sticking after releasing the start push
>button after engine start from time to time.This of course keeps the starter
>engaged with the engine running and you have to shut everything down to
>avoid any damage.Up to now, I had no real trouble with coping with that but
>it starts to be a real hassle.
> Here is what I tried:
> - Apply aeroelectric connection recommandations: big cable gauge and a
>diode to minimize the spark.
> - Change the relay a few time but after a while it starts again.
> The configuration is :
> - Lycoming O360 A3a,
> - Lightweight BC starter, wiring for the start part per Nat's
>recommandations including aeroelectric connection features,
> - 2 switches for the ignition system: one is grounding a magnetoand the
>other one switching on and off a Jeff rose electronic ignition.
> - A push button triggering the starter relay.
> I hear from a friend that the BC starter is pulling a lot more amps on
the
>battery than other starters and occasionnally triggers a big spark inside
>the relay that would lead quickly to a sticking relay.
> As I said I included a diode between the ground and the output of the
relay
>toward the starter (obviously in the inverted direction )to try to minimize
>the spark inside the relay. It looks like it does not play its role.
I don't have enough information yet.
Scenario 1: Is the sticking "relay" a starter contactor with fat wires
to carry starter current and light wiring to accept control voltage via
the start switch? What kind of contactor? Did you purchase it from either
B&C or from AeroElectric Connection? Is the system wired such that the
built in into the B&C starter is jumpered to the main terminal as-supplied
from B&C?
If the the "relay" being discussed is a starter contactor external
to the B&C starter then I suspect it's not a device purchased from
either Bill or myself and is not rated for the task. The contactors
we sell have been installed by the hundreds and I'm yet to be notified
of any sticking problems . . . although it CAN happen, we would not
expect it in less than hundreds of hours of service.
Scenario 2: Is the "relay" an auxiliary device used to take advantage
of the starter's built in contactor? Many folk have used some 30A
rated, plastic relays as an amplifier to buffer the built in starter
contactor's horrible inrush currents. See:
www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
Even tho these relays are rated sufficiently to withstand the high
inrush requirements, the load they switch is VERY inductive and has
a strong potential for burning the contacts of the aux control
relay. Going to a 70A rated relay would not solve the problem.
Missing or in-appropriately applied arc suppression is the
cause of problems.
Both problems are easy to fix. Benot, it would help if you could
fax me a sketch of your wiring so that I can accurately deduce
the problem and recommend a solution. Send it to 316.685.8617
and I'll publish the diagnosis and prescription on the lists.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sticking relay with B&C starter. |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>There are two more considerations in connection with solenoids that you
>should be aware of.
>1) If you have low battery voltage, like too much resistance in the line,
>or maybe one of the old-style lead-acid batteries, or do too much
>cranking, you can weld the contacts together.
Quite true . . . and it can happen to ANY style contactor.
>2) The commonly used solenoids (Wicks et al) have bolt heads inside for the
>contacts. If you twist the posts by tightening the electrical cables too
>tight on the outside, the bolt head on the inside can turn, so instead of
>the contacts being the flat of the bolthead, it is one of the points, and
>that greatly reduces the contact area, and could cause welding of the
>contacts.
Not sure about what Wicks is selling if it looks like:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-1l.jpg
then IT IS important to hold the nut up next to the contactor
shell and keep it from turning while you tighten the wiring
nut. ANY rotation of the threaded stud will render the contactor
trash.
If the contactor looks like:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s702-1l.jpg
Then the studs are captive in the contactors molded housing.
With this style, twisting the stud will break the housing
but at least you KNOW when you've cranked down on it too hard.
>B and C Specialties has a special contactor where the posts can't turn, and
>it avoids this problem. Benoit, would you like Bill Bainbridge to send you
>one of these which is garaunteed not to stick?
Don't know about "guaranteed" but they're really hard to stick.
However, starters with failed wiring inside or low battery
voltage can weld the best contactor . . .
> To amplify what I said in one of my earlier posts, the battery
>solenoid is energized when you turn on the master switch, and nothing else
>should be on at that time, so you aren't switching any current.
Most airplanes have several amps of things that are on all the
time but a battery contactor is generally rated to SWITCH 70
amps or better. Normal bus loads don't errode the battery
master contactor to any significant degree.
> . . . .But when
>you energize the starter solenoid, you could be switching as much as 600
>amps, which is the cranking power of the battery. That is why the starter
>circuit goes directly from the battery to the starter . . .
This is not recommended. All of our drawings and virtually every
certified airplane takes starter current through the battery master
contactor . . . if the starter contactor DOES stick, then the
battery master gives you a way to shut things down. While a battery
master contactor is rated to SWITCH 70 amps, it will nicely CARRY
the 200-250 amps common to starting an engine. I've had builders
try to use one of my S701-1 battery contactors as a starter contactor and
didn't get very good service life . . . however the battery contactor
was ALWAYS there to bring a potentially bad situation under control.
> . . . and not through the power bus and the 50 amp circuit breaker.
Not sure what breaker this is . . . some folks have a fat breaker
in their alternator b-lead output to the bus. By-in-large, there's
no practical application for fat breakers anywhere else in the system.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Sticking Contactors . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>There is something else to consider in installing solenoids (besides making
>sure you have the right one in each application). You should install them
>so that gravity assists the magnetic force in holding the contacts
>together. Do not install them upside down!
I recall a story circulated around OSH about ten years ago. Seems
some show pilot landed and found a chewed up starter ring
gear and his starter contactor was stuck shut. Some arm-chair
engineering on the spot deduced that high g-loading during aerobatic
maneuvers were responsible for "teasing" the contacts in flight
and causing welding much like low battery voltage. The word
went out like wildfire . . . tho shalt mount thy contactors
UPSIDE down so that positive g-loading would not tend to close
an open relay.
The physics don't bear out any particular admonitions for orientation
in the airplane. Once energized, a contactor has about 10x the force
holding it closed than it takes to first move the contacts from a fully
open position. Since a battery contact is ALWAYS closed, it's likely
that you'll pull the wings off your airplane before you force the
contactor open during a flight maneuver.
Starter contactors (like our S702-1) have extra heavy springs
to open them (to offset sticking tendencies) and extra heavy
coils to close them (to offset contact bounce and subsequent
damage from arcing while closing the high current load). G-loading
effects on these contactors is even less significant than for
the S701-1 continuous duty part. Further, starter contactors are
normally mounted on firewall with base on vertical plane. This
orientation puts g-loading sensitivity parallel to the longtitudinal
axis of the airplane . . . don't fly into the side of a mountain, you
might cause your starter contactor to close when you didn't want it
to.
By in large, all of the stories being circulated about contactor
orientation and are not founded in the application or physics of
the matter. IF the airshow pilot was using a poorly choosen device
as a starter contactor (like our S701-1) AND it was oriented
such that gravity helps close or keep the contacts closed, then
it's thinkable that a 10g maneuver might have teased his starter
contacts closed in flight. If he were using a REAL starter
contactor installed accoding to recommendations, it would never
happen. Maneuvering g-loads in airplanes you and I like to fly
are not a risk to your various contactors.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terminaltown(at)aol.com |
zenith-list(at)matronics.com, lanceair-list@matronics, glasair-list@matronics
Hello Lister:
In my research on various Home Builts going on around Seattle I've run into
many questions and one that I can answer now in the HOW TO area of our site.
I am still working on others and will post soon.
It is an easy solution to preventing chafing when running wire through some
of the larger holes in the bulkheads. Holes to big for snap in plastic
grommets or rubber grommets.
Go to http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page110.html or click here Terminal Town's
/Electrical Connector/Cat Track
John @ Terminal Town
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sticking relay |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> Thanks for the overwhelming quantity of answers. It looks like it might
be
>a real problem.
> I will answer to everybody in one message.
> To be more precise on my configuration:
> - The first starter relay I was using was the one sold by ACS (p/n 22735
on
>their catalog) for homebuilders .It started to stick lets say after 3 months
>of my initial testing ( I was already flying by that time) and was the one
>used for the initial start of the engine when it was sometime a bit
>difficult to start with a low battery.
> - The second relay was bought in France to a company called Aerostock
in Le
>bourget airport. It started sticking after 15 days of use. I am now flying
>quite often and the engine is firing very quickly and very nicely due to the
>jeff rose ignition with a fully loaded battery ( I am flying a lot).
> -I took it out and found out it a was a 24v relay. So I went back to
>Aerostock and they changed it for a 12v one. The one I got looks very much
>alike the master relay ( p/n 111-226 in ACS catalog). It started not doing
>its job after a week.
This explains it. NONE of heavy duty contactors in that package
are suited to starter contactor service . . . for a time,
RBM Controls, later White-Rogers, now Stancore built a series of
intermittant duty relays with heavier coil wires and stronger closure
forces but the way that contactor is designed internally, it just
doesn't get the contact PRESSURE that modern automotive starter
contactors enjoy.
The contactor we sell (S702-1) is of this family of devices.
> I know have two plans to attack that problem:
> 1-A friend of mine gave me a brand new ACS 22735 relay he had in his
>hangar. I might put that one on and keep the diodes that I had added on the
>previous relay ( The first relay had a diode between the coil and ground but
>not between the output and ground).
Our conactor has the arc supression diode built into the contactor
coil assembly.
> 2-I recently bought a renault truck starter relay which looks impressive
>(not to say massive) and very strong. I did not use it yet because I
>measured the coil resistance and found out that it was 4 ohms. This would
>mean that I would be pulling at least 3 amps through the triggering push
>button and given the size of that button this would be way too much. So I
>can decide to use it but I would have to trigger the coil of that new relay
>through another relay, maybe the previous one that could accept that 3 amp
>current easily. Is this overkill?
No, the fact that you read the low resistance is FIRST indication that
this is an intermittant duty contactor probably designed for higher
contact pressures therefore much more suited to working with starters.
Our S702-1 contactor is also a 4 ohm coil . . . The starter push-button
we recommend is heaftier than most . . . or you can rig your magnetos
to use switches and built the starter function into the switches. This
is illustrated several ways in the diagrams at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/R9Z_0400.pdf
> I would like to thank for the LED advice. It is a very good one because
I
>had already implemented that in my bird and this is what allowed me to do
>the identification of the problem.In fact , every switch has a Led that
>lights up when it is on and the information is picked up trough a wire that
>is coming from the back of the equipment the given switch is supposed to
>energise.I like that set up a lot because I have an emergency power switch
>that power a very minimum of what is needed ( to cover the alternator
>failure) and when the switch is on "alternate" the LED's give me exactly
>what is on.
Do you also have some form of automatic disabling of the alternator
in case of a failed regulator runaway? This needs to be an automatic
function that operates in tens of milliseonds. Pilot monitoring of
any instrumentation with the hope of adequately controlling a runaway
> Well, this is were I am . It is late now and I am going to bed as you
guys
>are now working.
> May be I will find out more to morrow morning with maybe a direct advice
>from Bill bainbridge. Just burry in mind that I am now so happy to fly that
>bird that waiting 3 or more days for a part coming from the states is too
>much. I want to fly to-morrow except if the wheather is bad (it might
>happen).
Bill is going to tell you that you need a REAL starter contactor like
his, like mine or probably like the one you just bought . . . however,
it's possible that our contactors are smaller and lighter. My S701-1
is 280 gm and fits inside a 6 x 6 x 6 cm cube. Bill's is very close
to the same dimensions.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Some thoughts spike catcher diodes . . . |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
A reader comments on the practice of putting diodes across the coil
of a contactor . .
> A diode connected in this way is usually suggested to clamp the inductive
> voltage spike resulting from de-energizing the relay coil. The problem is
> that it provides a path for the current caused by the collapsing magnetic
> field. The net result is that the amount of time it takes to open the
> relay *increases*. This exacerbates the issue of a sticking relay in that
> a slower release time causes more arcing at the contacts.
Yeeeaaahhh BUT . . . I've never been able to document much change
in the contact spreading velocity of the contactors we sell and
recommend when a diode is included in the contactor's coil circuit.
I have been able to document wear and tear on the switch that controls
the contactor and it's much worse if the diode is left off.
On starter contactors, the spring tension that opens contacts
is MUCH larger than for the continuous duty contacts. Further,
given the higher coil current, it's more important that this
stored energy be calmly dealt with than with battery contactors.
Hence, our starter contactors come with the diode BUILT IN. I
have to believe that the folks who make these by the millions
for ground based vehicles find this a useful thing to do.
Battery contactors are generally opened up with VERY mild loads
on the main terminals . . . so again, it's more useful to tame
the contactor's stored coil energy than to be concerned with
contact opening velocity.
> A better way is to dump the current of the collapsing field into the
> battery. You can do this by connecting the diode across the starter
> switch (cathode band to the battery side of the switch) rather than the
> coil. This is a higher impedance path, and it allows the coil magnetic
> field to collapse faster while still clamping the voltage.
Not so. I've done an article on spike catching diodes and posted
it to:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
It's rather large (500K .pdf file) and I appologize for the
size but it has 4 pictures of oscilloscope traces taken from
test setups on my bench this morning. If you want to get the
straight skinny on this topic, I'll suggest it's worth the
download time.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi All:
I recieved a test unit of a governor maunfactured by Jihostroj a.s. in the
Czech Republic yesterday. This tiny thing appears to be far advanced from the
std units we are used to seeing, and is about 1/2 the size (= better engine
cooling IMHO) and weighs 2 lb 4 oz compared to 3 lb 6 oz for a Woodward unit.
This is less weight in the correct place! I'll get the thing mounted on my
ship for testing as soon as practical.
At any rate, I get a respectable price if I can order 6 of these -- I can
sell them for $1150 each. If I can get enough orders to place an order for 11
units, I can sell them for $1050 each. That's pretty good pricing for a new
governor!
For comparison, O/H units currently sell for $500-600 or so, and the price
for a new Hartzell unit is $1995.
So: if you anticipate needing a governor for your ship, and you can order one
now, please let me know -- I'll place an order after enough folks step up. I
need to know if you have a wide or narrow deck engine to order the correct
governor (the drive ratios are different).
Cheers!
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>I hope I don't come across as a nut case here but I could use some advice.
>I am having a grand time building the tail section of an RV9-A. (Wings are
>on order) I am an expert woodworker - so I am not new to tools or
>craftsmanship. However, as I build this plane I catch myself becoming
>paranoid about the quality and safety of what I am doing. With each hole I
>drill and rivit I place, following the plans to the letter, I get tense
that
>if I screw up, someone could die. Is this normal?
I open my weekend seminars with the observation that amateur
airplane builders are fabricating the finest airplanes to have
ever flown. I support that statment as follows:
The folk pounding rivets on an assembly line of an airplane
factory would love to be doing anything DIFFERENT that what
they are doing now. If something gets bent, a little whack here
or some prybar there might make that rivet go into the hole
with a few SMALL hammer whacks . . . if someting breaks,
two supervisors and three inspectors will stand around discussing
the MINIMUM effort needed to LEAGALY push that airplane out the
door.
I've visted some builder's shops where the airplane under
construction had some pretty scary craftsmanship . . . further,
the builder was making modifications to "correct some perceived
screwups in the original design." I'm pleased to note that after
10 or 12 years, those airplanes are STILL under construction
and not much further along than when I last saw them.
You guys are doing a good job because you DO worry. If you don't
know about some aspect of the task, you get on the list, call
another bulder, call the factory, etc. etc. IF and WHEN your
airplane breaks ground for the first time, the MAJOR risks
to it's success will be from silly mistakes (cotter key left
out, fuel line fitting not tightened, pilot skills poorly
adapted to type, etc.) . . . your risk to suffering an
consequence of poor craftsmanship is nil.
The mechanics of putting an airplane together is very conducive
to the "look and feel" method of inspection. If it's smooth,
went together without hammering or sawing, then the completed
task is 100% likely to meet the intent of the designer.
It's right that you question what you don't understand. At some
time in the past we were all right where you are. You're
in right crowd for acquiring understanding and your going
to do just fine. At some time in the future, I predict
your biggest "worry" is picking the right color scheme for
paint and upholstery . . . after all you don't want a machine
of this caliber pulling up to the ramp looking like a teenager's
street rod . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SSPRING83(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 10/28/00 |
Please stop my subscription. No longer interested!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert & Toodie Marshall" <rtmarshall(at)thegrid.net> |
Hi Robert, I should say , yes you are being paranoid, Consider your
knowledge of wood, when you mixed a batch of glue for a layup you also made
a test coupon to see if it came apart in the wood and not the glue joint. do
the same with a few test pieces of aluminum and rivets, every time you move
to a different size material, make a test piece BEFORE you start , this will
get your pressures set and the feel of the buck bouncing in your hand so
that you turn out an airworthy part, Fab your bucktail measuring tools and
do not work harden your rivets by riveting to hard! Have a great time on
your project, I know it will be as good as your aeroelectric works, as they
show great thought and lots of common sense. take care, anytime you have a
question always always pulse the list! have a great day, Robert ,Truckee,
CA riveting on the rocket!----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 11:42 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: Re: paranoid???
>
> >I hope I don't come across as a nut case here but I could use some
advice.
> >I am having a grand time building the tail section of an RV9-A. (Wings
are
> >on order) I am an expert woodworker - so I am not new to tools or
> >craftsmanship. However, as I build this plane I catch myself becoming
> >paranoid about the quality and safety of what I am doing. With each hole
I
> >drill and rivit I place, following the plans to the letter, I get tense
> that
> >if I screw up, someone could die. Is this normal?
>
> I open my weekend seminars with the observation that amateur
> airplane builders are fabricating the finest airplanes to have
> ever flown. I support that statment as follows:
>
> The folk pounding rivets on an assembly line of an airplane
> factory would love to be doing anything DIFFERENT that what
> they are doing now. If something gets bent, a little whack here
> or some prybar there might make that rivet go into the hole
> with a few SMALL hammer whacks . . . if someting breaks,
> two supervisors and three inspectors will stand around discussing
> the MINIMUM effort needed to LEAGALY push that airplane out the
> door.
>
> I've visted some builder's shops where the airplane under
> construction had some pretty scary craftsmanship . . . further,
> the builder was making modifications to "correct some perceived
> screwups in the original design." I'm pleased to note that after
> 10 or 12 years, those airplanes are STILL under construction
> and not much further along than when I last saw them.
>
> You guys are doing a good job because you DO worry. If you don't
> know about some aspect of the task, you get on the list, call
> another bulder, call the factory, etc. etc. IF and WHEN your
> airplane breaks ground for the first time, the MAJOR risks
> to it's success will be from silly mistakes (cotter key left
> out, fuel line fitting not tightened, pilot skills poorly
> adapted to type, etc.) . . . your risk to suffering an
> consequence of poor craftsmanship is nil.
>
> The mechanics of putting an airplane together is very conducive
> to the "look and feel" method of inspection. If it's smooth,
> went together without hammering or sawing, then the completed
> task is 100% likely to meet the intent of the designer.
>
> It's right that you question what you don't understand. At some
> time in the past we were all right where you are. You're
> in right crowd for acquiring understanding and your going
> to do just fine. At some time in the future, I predict
> your biggest "worry" is picking the right color scheme for
> paint and upholstery . . . after all you don't want a machine
> of this caliber pulling up to the ramp looking like a teenager's
> street rod . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
> --------------------------------------------
> ( Knowing about a thing is different from )
> ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
> ( and still understand nothing. )
> ( C.F. Kettering )
> --------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Our website is down . . . |
Our website was mis-behaving off and on several days last week
and now has been down 100% since late Saturday night. I've been
getting a ton of e-mail from folks who have been trying to access
it unsuccessfully. I'll publish a notice when we're back up.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terminaltown(at)aol.com |
lancair-list(at)matronics.com, rocket-list(at)matronics.com,
rv-list(at)matronics.com, zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Hello Listers:
Several new pages are up. One Multiple Push Ons and another which I call the
Bargain Basement...Stuff with special pricing. Maybe worth a look.
They are listed in the NEW STUFF section on our Home Page Terminal Town
or http://www.terminaltown.com
Best regards,
John @ Terminal Town
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SignCo" <signco(at)flash.net> |
| Subject: | 540 engine for sale |
Rocketmen:
I know someone who is selling a Lycoming engine IO-540-A4D5, Removed from
Aztec - photography plane
The engine is "0" SMOH. New Millenium cylinders.
If you're ready for one and interested, contact me off the list to my email
address, and I will be happy to give you all the specs and information.
Thanks,
Luis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: This is why you pay attention whilst taxing |
>
>
>http://www.captainkaos.com/cessna
>
>
>Above is a web page worth a look
>(since is not good to put photos on list)
>This is why you pay attention whilst taxing
>Lets hope you dont do this in your new F1 rocket !!!!!!
Which goes to what I've said all along, "No matter
how you slice it, it's still not as good as a
Beechcraft . . ."
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Open Barrel Pin Connectors |
My 4 month arm-wrestling match with the supplier
has ended in victory . . . the tools we thought we
were going to get back in August are here. Whether
you use our tool or not, here's a comic book on
installing the open barrel pins as used in Mate-n-Lock,
Molex, and D-subminature connectors.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/matenlok/matenlok.html
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | A20driver(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: This is why you pay attention whilst taxing |
Pretty strong prop on that 150 -- Jim Brown, RV - 3&4, NJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use of Proximity type switches in aircraft? |
>Good-day all- looking to the many fabulous engineering talents within this
>forum- Does anyone have any experience with inductive proximity switches
>used as limit switches within an aircraft? Wondering if anyone who has
>tried prox switches in aircraft if they have ever had interference with the
>performance of the switch while operating radio or other equipment? I have
>experience using these switches in the development of tooling and machines
>within a dirty and vibrating environment but not around other possible noise
>creators like radios or the like.
I think your risks are low. I've used these devices
for decades in some hi-end aircraft and industrial
applications with no difficulties . . . however,
having said that, I've NOT tested any of these things
in the RF lab . . . The major threat is from transmitters.
Play with one on the bench while irradiating it with
a hand-held and rubber-duck antenna from about a foot away.
If keying the transmitter doesn't affect operation, it's
probably going to be just fine in your airplane. This
kind of exposure from a handheld is MUCH more than
it would see in a typical installation.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Installation |
>I have a question concerning the ELT installation. The installation manual
>for our Ameri-King Model AK-450 ELT says "The Antenna must be within 20
>degrees of vertical when the aircraft is in a normal flight attitude." It
>goes on to say "The Antenna should be placed a minimum distance of 3 feet (1
>meter) from any vertically polarized communication Antennas (i.e. Antennas
>radiating in the 118-137 MHz band)."
>My understanding of the ELT use is that it would never be used in flight so
>then why would their be a requirement for it to be installed "within 20
>degrees of vertical"? Further, it is not likely that the aircraft would be
>in such an attitude when use of the ELT was necessary.
On top of that, a recent article in AOPA Pilot suggests that
ELTs figure in a TINY percentage of aircraft accidents wherein
lives are saved . . . like under 10% if I recall. The numbers
COULD be better but the hardware reliability is poor and the
technology used to track downed aircraft is antiquated.
>The other question is why should it be placed 3 feet from the VHF antenna?
>Again, the VHF antenna would presumably not be used at the same time as the
>ELT antenna.
>
>I would presume that the ELT installation requirements would be only for
>certificated aircraft and not applicable to home-builts. However, some
times
>there may be some wisdom in certification requirements.
Excellent critical review questions. In my not so humble opinion,
install it any way that works but plan your actions such that
you don't need to depend on the system to be useful.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Gretz <warrengretz(at)gretzaero.com> |
list-avionics ,
list-ez , list-glasair ,
list-lancair ,
list-rocket , list-rv8
| Subject: | Heated pitot tube good price |
Hello listers,
I sent out a post not long ago saying I will continue to sell the AN5814
heated pitot tube at the old price of $199 until all of my current stock
is gone, then my price must go up due to increased price from the
manufacture. I still have a few. First come first serve. They will go
fast now.
I also sell the mounting bracket kits for mounting this and the
PH502-12CR heated pitot tube. Of course I sell this pitot also. To see
these products and others I offer look at my website. The address
is: http://www.gretzaero.com
I hope to hear from you soon.
Warren Gretz
Gretz Aero
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | A Season of Giving - Please Support Your List! |
Dear Listers,
As my good friend Al Mojzisik from the RV-List forum has pointed out in
his humorous style this morning, its time for the Annual List Fund
Raiser! For those that are new to the Lists since last year, I'd like
to just mention what its all about. I have always run the List services
here completely free of charge to the members. This includes the Email
Lists, Archive Search Engine, as well as some of the other goodies found
on the servers. My policy has always been that I will never charge a
'fee' to sign up for any of the email Lists and I have also turned down
a number potentially lucrative of 'commercial' offers to provide
advertising space either on the various web pages or on in each of the
outgoing emails. I have always graciously declined these offers,
however, because I have felt that the friendly, homey feeling of the
commercial-free site was very appealing. I have also felt that offering
the services here for free is the best way to stimulate the greatest
membership, and in my opinion, this is the most important element in the
success of a forum such as this. So, once again, I will restate my
commitment to always keeping all of the services here on the Matronics
servers free to everyone.
That being said, I must also say that running this system is far from
free for me, however. I am continually trying to provide the best, most
reliable service possible and have continued to upgrade the systems as
necessary to maintain or improve the level of service I provide. Quite
aside from the "real costs" involved in the maintenance of a service
like this, however, is the time commitment necessary to keep everything
running and time required to produce new and improved software
enhancements to make the whole experience more enjoyable for everyone.
On the average I spend 10 to 20 hours a week handling subscription
requests and related problems, maintaining the existing computer code
base, and developing new utilities for the List community.
The whole List site (web server and email server) continue to run across
the 768kb/sec DSL-based Internet connection. Connections to the servers
have generally been pretty reliable and performance has been good. Up
time for the connection has approached the 99% mark.
If you regularly enjoy the services provided here, I would ask that you
make a Contribution in any amount in which you are comfortable. Your
Contribution will be used to directly support the continued operation
and improvement of all these services, and as always, I will turn your
Contributions back into more upgrades and improvements. It is truly an
investment in the future of these Lists.
To make a SSL Secure Web Contribution using your Visa or MasterCard,
please go to the following URL and follow the simple instructions:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution.html
To make a Contribution by check, please send US Mail to:
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
As I have done in the past, I will post a "Contributors List" at the end
of the Fund Raiser, personally acknowledging each and everyone that has
generously made a Contribution this year!
Finally, I just want to say *Thank You* to everyone that has supported
me and my operation here this year. Your support and encouragement
means a great deal to me and I feel like I have friends literally from
all around the world!
Sincerely,
Matt Dralle
Your Email List Administrator
dralle(at)matronics.com
============================================================================
>--------------
>--> RV-List message posted by: Al Mojzisik
>
>Well folks,
>
>I hate to spring this on you without much advance warning and all but it's
>November already. For you newer List members you may not know but this is
>the time of year we all give "thanks" for all that Matte Dralle has done
>for us with this RV-List. the customary way of saying "thanks" is with a
>voluntary donation of cash through Matte's own simple and safe contribution
>hot-line at:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>It's really rather painless and actually gives you a good warm and fuzzy
>feeling inside after you have made your contribution. Now last year I
>relied heavily on guilt to get some of you harder nuts to crack to ante
>up. This year I hope that in keeping with the election year theme I can
>learn something from the experts........"It's for the children."
>
>Yes your contribution will help children everywhere learn about the high
>moral values that are inherent in the RV family of aircraft. As our young
>charges surf the Internet for information on various things that we don't
>want them to know about, they may stumble across the Matronics Website and
>become aware of the RV-List and other interesting forums that Matte
>provides. This in turn may change there lives as they see what can be
>achieved through hard work and perseverance. They will learn how the polite
>exchange of idea's between consenting adults can result in the birth of one
>(or more) of the finest aircraft in existence today. They can become aware
>of a whole world out there that had previously been unknown or out of reach
>to them. So in the interest of our children, send your contribution to
>Matte to help the RV-List live long and prosper.............Darn, got my
>tongue caught in my cheek there for a moment.
>
>Once again, you can make your contribution through credit card at:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> c/o Matt Dralle
> Matronics
> P.O. Box 347
> Livermore, CA. 94551
>
>I would like to pledge at this time that I will not place any negative
>advertising in the hope of raising funds for RV-List support. (Unless you
>folks hold out too long, then look out!) Let's have a real clean campaign
>this November and get out the contributions! AL
>--------------
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Builder's Bookstore" <winterland(at)rkymtnhi.com> |
| Subject: | 10% for Matronics |
Builder's Bookstore and eCharts is happy to do again, what we did successfully
last year. That is to donate a portion of our sales for the month of November
to the maintenance of the Rocket-list.
10% FOR MATRONICS
Starting now, 10% of any purchase from either Builder's Bookstore or eCharts
will be put aside as a donation to the RV-list, as our thanks for this excellent
resource for Rocket builders and pilots. We will run this special throughout
November with a check for the total amount presented to Matt on December 1st
2000.
To designate your share, please write the words "10% for Matronics" in the
Special Instructions box on the on-line order form. Or, if you order something
by phone, just tell me when you call.
Thank you Matt for this excellent service.
Andy Gold
Builder's Bookstore
http://buildersbooks.com
eCharts
http://eCharts.cc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shower of Sparks Ignition |
>> Thanks for the comments on my problem, but I am still confused. Let me
>> further describe my engine mags. As I stated before, the engine came with
>> two rebuilt mags. The one with the impulse coupling on the right side and
>> the mag on the left side contained a device on the rear of the mag with
two
>> wires protruding. This really confused me. Evidently, the overhaul
shop had
>> these two mags in their possession and overhauled them for my engine.
>>
>> When I inquired about this left mag device with the two wires
protruding, a
>> knowledgeable person said that Bendix Mag Co. calls this device "shower of
>> sparks". I then called the mechanic back and he informed me if I don't
want
>> to use the "shower of sparks", which I don't have a clue how it works,
just
>> clip the wires and use the impulse coupling on the right mag.
Shower of sparks is a special battery augmentation of spark energy
delivered by a magneto during cranking. I have a work in progress that
I'll share with those who are intrested in this topic. Download the
following:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/sparks2.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/sos_v1.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/sos_v1.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/sos_v1.pdf
Be advised there are figures called out in the text that
are not supplied and you'll have to do a little sorting
of the words against the three drawings that ARE supplied.
I don't have time to clean this article up right now but
it's good enough to share on a limited basis. I'm not
going to link it on the articles index until it's finished
so this e-mail message is the ONLY place you'll see 'em
listed.
In my not so humble opinion, S-o-S ignition is probably
the best thing that ever happend to a magneto. If you're
not ready to dump these 1940 devices in favor of 1990
devices, you can't do any better in terms of cranking
performance than to utilize shower-of-sparks augmentation.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Extraction tool for Amp-Leaf Connectors |
A list server participant just sent me a picture of the connector used on
the back of his MicroMonitor to ask if we stock an extraction tool for
it. Actually, I have a tool . . . which I fabricated about 20 years ago.
You can see a picture of the tool along with instructions on its
fabrication and use at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/amplefxt.jpg
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terminaltown(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List: Clamps |
homebuilt-list(at)matronics.com, lancair-list(at)matronics.com,
rocket-list(at)matronics.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com, zenith-list(at)matronics.com
In a message dated 11/2/00 10:49:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
larrybiglar(at)email.msn.com writes:
<< The education continues. A couple of days ago, I went to the local Ace
Hardware Aircraft Supply, and bought a handful of clamps. I think they're
called "Adel Clamps," or some such. So, now that my money's safely spent,
tonight I read the new Nov. 2000 issue
of Custom Planes, the article has a key,
telling which code signifies what, and the properties of each. My shiny
new clamps are stamped " G10," which turns out to be "low carbon steel band,
with chloroprene cushion, good to 212 degrees F." 10 is the size in 16th's.
No - these aren't a "perfect 10." Well, the cushion is good, but the band
is not recommended for aircraft use. Wouldn't ya know it. >>
Hello Big Lar:
DG = Aluminum band, (212F) Chloroprene Cushion Chloroprene - Used in general
purpose areas where there is a possibilty of contaminated with petroleum
based hydraulic fluids and occasional fuel splash. Excellent ozone resistant.
Not resistant to phosphate-ester based fluids. Color of cushion is black
with a blue identifier marking. Do not use on titanium tubing. Also cushion
has a wegge to stop over tightening
We carry DG Adel Mil Spec clamps and they will fit your needs. They are at
http://www.terminaltown.com or click here Terminal Town's
Electrical Connectors Mil Spec Adel Clamps
Also Bob N. has a very good page of info on Adels at
http://www.aeroelectric/articles/adel.com or click here Adel Clamps
John @ Terminal Town
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | List Fund Raiser Continues... |
Hello Listers!
This is just a reminder that the Annual List Fund Raiser is currently
underway. Won't you make a Contribution today to support the continued
operation and upgrade of this valuable resource? Your Contribution can
be made via a Secure SSL Internet Transaction with your Visa or
MasterCard at the URL shown below or you may send it via US Mail to the
address also listed below.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
P.O. Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Thank you for your support! Your generosity directly makes this List
possible.
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What size alternator to use? |
>From: "Sid Lloyd" <glastar1(at)swbell.net>
>
>I want to use one of the B & C Specialty Products lightweight alternators
and
>their regulators. They offer both a 60 and a 40 amp version. How do you
>know which one to get? Do you add up your planned electrical load and
>figure it out that way?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sid
You need to accomplish what is called a "load analysis" for
the various phases of flight. Some folks do it on a spread sheet
and enter continuous running load (transmit doesn't count, lowing
landing gear
generally doesn't count, only add up loads that are on for duration
of the flight phase).
Main Bus Loads
============================================================================
===========
Pre- Taxi Climb VFR IFR Decent
Taxi Alt
Flt Cruise Cruise
Out
Battery contactor 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0
1.0
Engine Gages 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
0.3
Strobe Lts 2.5 2.5 2.5 2.5
2.5
Nav Lts
Fuel Pump
Landing Lt 7.5
Taxi Lt 4.5
Pitot Heat 5.0
Main Bus Totals
Essential Bus Loads
============================================================================
===========
Pre- Taxi Climb VFR IFR Decent
Taxi Alt
Flt Cruise Cruise
Out
Com 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1
0.1 0.1
GPS 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.2
0.2 0.2
T/C 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
0.3 0.3
Transponder/Encoder 0.45 0.45 0.45 0.45 0.45 0.45
0.45 0.45
Map Lt/Pnl Flood 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1
0.1 0.1
E-Bus Totals 1.25
The list above is not intended to be all inclusive nor are the figures
entered intended
to be representative of your airplane . . . you need to do the homework and
get all the
data approprate to the equipment you plan to use.
You might also include a column headed NITE VFR . . .
After all the continuous loads are added up, total loads for E-Bus and Main
bus
should not be so great in any class of operation such that it doesn't leave
10A
or so to recharge your battery. The FAA uses a rule-of-thumb on the order
of 20
percent of alternator output should be reserved for battery charging. A better
rule is to figure out how much snort it takes to completely recharge your
battery
in 1 hour of flight. If you have an 18 a.h. battery, then you need 18A of
extra
output over and above your max continuous running loads.
If you make it an operating rule for your airplane that you will NEVER depart
into potentially stressful flight conditions unless the battery is fully
charged,
then you don't need to meet the 1 hour "rule" . . . If on hopefully very rare
occasions that you find your ship's battery totally dead, you make sure the
battery
is mostly recharged before launching into the blue then you can sensibly
mitigate
your alternator requriements. The classic rules of thumb observed by certified
aircraft designers originat from the padded cockpit environment where the
pilot
is assumed to know nothing about how the system was architectured or how it
operates. You are all encouraged to understand what's happening, why, and
be able to operate comfortably with it based on purposeful decision making.
I'm not sure the chart above will pass through all of the various lists with
the columns intact so I've dumped this e-mail to a .pdf file which you may
doanload at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/loadanal.pdf
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different from )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack" <jnchodge(at)earthlink.net> |
Does anyone know, is the "magneto capacitor terminal stud" the same thing
as the "P" lead? I'm trying to hook up a retard breaker slick mag to a
Slickstart "shower of sparks"
Thanks, Jack jnchodge(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan E. Files" <bfiles(at)gci.net> |
Yes,
You should be able to hook up to that terminal.
Bryan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 4:18 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: Slick mags
Does anyone know, is the "magneto capacitor terminal stud" the same thing
as the "P" lead? I'm trying to hook up a retard breaker slick mag to a
Slickstart "shower of sparks"
Thanks, Jack jnchodge(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | 2000 List Fund Raiser Underway... |
Hi Listers,
Just a quick reminder that the 2000 Email List Fund Raiser is underway
and participation so far as been good. If you haven't made your
contribution yet, won't you take a moment and make one today? The
continued operation and improvement of these services are directly
enabled by the generous contributions of its members.
You may make a contribution with either your Visa or Mastercard using
the Matronics SSL Secure website at:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or with a personal check to:
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Thank you to all those that have already made a contribution!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Homebuilt-List: 2000 List Fund Raiser Underway... |
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
Hi Listers,
Just a quick reminder that the 2000 Email List Fund Raiser is underway
and participation so far as been good. If you haven't made your
contribution yet, won't you take a moment and make one today? The
continued operation and improvement of these services are directly
enabled by the generous contributions of its members.
You may make a contribution with either your Visa or Mastercard using
the Matronics SSL Secure website at:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or with a personal check to:
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Thank you to all those that have already made a contribution!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Zenith-List: 2000 List Fund Raiser Underway... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
Hi Listers,
Just a quick reminder that the 2000 Email List Fund Raiser is underway
and participation so far as been good. If you haven't made your
contribution yet, won't you take a moment and make one today? The
continued operation and improvement of these services are directly
enabled by the generous contributions of its members.
You may make a contribution with either your Visa or Mastercard using
the Matronics SSL Secure website at:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or with a personal check to:
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Thank you to all those that have already made a contribution!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | 2000 List Fund Raiser Underway... |
Hi Listers,
Just a quick reminder that the 2000 Email List Fund Raiser is underway
and participation so far as been good. If you haven't made your
contribution yet, won't you take a moment and make one today? The
continued operation and improvement of these services are directly
enabled by the generous contributions of its members.
You may make a contribution with either your Visa or Mastercard using
the Matronics SSL Secure website at:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or with a personal check to:
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Thank you to all those that have already made a contribution!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Huge Apology for "List Malfunction"... |
Dear Listers,
I am so embarrassed by the List-gone-crazy tonight! I'm not sure
exactly went wrong. I'm suspecting that someone with an email account
at msm.com may have been reposting my message from this morning over
and over again maliciously spamming the system, but I can't really
prove that.
In any case, I am hugely embarrassed and sorry for the ton of messages
that went out tonight regarding the 2000 Fund Raiser. Something went
wrong on the system or somebody did me wrong; in either case I
apologize for the huge dump of messages.
My sincerest apologies...
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terminaltown(at)aol.com |
rocket-list(at)matronics.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com, zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Hello Listers:
A new HOW TO page. How to connect to small pins and tabs using solder seals.
Terminal Town's
Electrical Connector: How To Connect Tabs Using Solder Seals or
http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page80.html
Best regards,
John Caldwell@ Terminal Town's Home
Page
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terminaltown(at)aol.com |
Hello Listers:
A new HOW TO page. How to connect to small pins and tabs using solder seals.
Terminal Town's
Electrical Connector: How To Connect Tabs Using Solder Seals or
http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page80.html
Best regards,
John Caldwell@ Terminal Town's Home
Page
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
It was brought to my attention by a friend who just completed a RV6 that Van
will not support the use of a both position on the fuel selector. He feels
that one or the other tank will draw more fuel due to side slip or somthing
and start sucking air when it gets low.
What is your opinion regarding the both position on the fuel selector..
I may have to order the left/right/off and return the one I have..
Also, Is 3/8ths a large enough fuel line for the 260 hp engine?
Thanks Larry 001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Archie" <archie97(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel selector |
>
> It was brought to my attention by a friend who just completed a RV6 that
Van
> will not support the use of a both position on the fuel selector. He
feels
> that one or the other tank will draw more fuel due to side slip or
somthing
> and start sucking air when it gets low.
> What is your opinion regarding the both position on the fuel selector..
> I may have to order the left/right/off and return the one I have..
> Also, Is 3/8ths a large enough fuel line for the 260 hp engine?
> Thanks Larry 001
Dick's point is valid.
.375 ID line is ok for short run gravity to pump, but I prefer larger.
You can always go larger, and improve your odds when installing
a larger engine in the future. I prefer .5in.
Archie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)execulink.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel selector |
Larry
You can use the fuel selector that you have if this is the standard one
that Van's sends out. Just put a plug in the unused port. As for the 3/8"
line I am flying with that on my Rocket with no problems at all. With a
boost pump you can get fuel flows in the 40 to 50 gal per hour range. This
should more than be enough!!!
If you use the 1/2" lines as suggested by another lister then you will
have to have the fittings on your tank and tank pickups changed to realize
any benefit. I believe that most commercial installations of this engine
would use the 3/8" line.
For the interest of the list I am building my second rocket now and
should finish the canopy this week, I expect flight next spring.
Tom Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com <LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com>
Date: November 12, 2000 9:44 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: Fuel selector
>
>It was brought to my attention by a friend who just completed a RV6 that
Van
>will not support the use of a both position on the fuel selector. He feels
>that one or the other tank will draw more fuel due to side slip or somthing
>and start sucking air when it gets low.
>What is your opinion regarding the both position on the fuel selector..
>I may have to order the left/right/off and return the one I have..
>Also, Is 3/8ths a large enough fuel line for the 260 hp engine?
>Thanks Larry 001
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | New List MIME/HTML/Enclosure Filter Implemented... |
Dear Listers,
With the pervasiveness of email applications using HTML (web formatting)
and MIME encoding such as AOL 6.0, Netscape, Eudora and others it was
clear that I needed to come up with an improved method for limiting how
messages posted to the various Lists was handled.
As of today, November 13 2000 you should be able to configure your email
program any way you like - with or without special formatting - and your
message will still be accepted my the Matronics system. Also, if you
include any sort of enclosure data, your message will also still be
accepted instead of bounced back.
But wait, it gets even better! Everything except for the plain text
will be automatically stripped from the incoming post including any
HTML, MIME, and/or enclosure data prior to redistribution. This should
serve to both ease the configuration burden on the many users, and to
increase the readability of both the posted messages and the archives.
I had a few 'bugs' with the filter on Sunday and Monday morning, so if
you received a few messages that seemed "odd", than this was probably
why.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | 2000 List Contributions - Only 8% So Far... |
Dear Listers,
As of today, 11/13/00 only about 8% of the total list members have made
a contribution in 2000 to support the Email Lists. Compared to previous
years, this is a very low percentage for this point in the Fund Raiser.
If you enjoy the various Lists here on the Matronics servers as well as
the high speed access to the Archives and Search Engine, won't you
consider making a contribution to support the continued operation and
upkeep? Maintenance of these Lists represents a sizeable investment on
my part both in terms of time and personal finances and the contributions
from the List members goes a long way towards breaking even on the endeavor.
Remember that on December 1st I will be posting a Contributors List that
will include the names of everyone that has made a contribution in 2000.
Won't you assure that your name will be on that list and make a
contribution today? You can use either your Credit Card via a Secure,
SSL website or by Personal Check.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
P.O. Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Once again, I would like to thank everyone that has made a contribution
so far! You truly make these Lists possible!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan E. Files" <bfiles(at)gci.net> |
A low wing aircraft can have serious problems by having a fuel selector with
a both position. Use only a Left Right fuel valve.
Bryan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Archie
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Fuel selector
>
> It was brought to my attention by a friend who just completed a RV6 that
Van
> will not support the use of a both position on the fuel selector. He
feels
> that one or the other tank will draw more fuel due to side slip or
somthing
> and start sucking air when it gets low.
> What is your opinion regarding the both position on the fuel selector..
> I may have to order the left/right/off and return the one I have..
> Also, Is 3/8ths a large enough fuel line for the 260 hp engine?
> Thanks Larry 001
Dick's point is valid.
.375 ID line is ok for short run gravity to pump, but I prefer larger.
You can always go larger, and improve your odds when installing
a larger engine in the future. I prefer .5in.
Archie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel selector |
Thats what I plan to do... Thanks.... Larry 001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel selector |
Tom... Thanks for your response. I will switch my selector to the L/R
Anadair and use the 3/8 in. line...
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terminaltown(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | New How To For Switches |
rocket-list(at)matronics.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com, zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Hello Lister: Thank you to all of you who responded so favorably to the How
To tab solder with solder seals.
I've got a new page up showing how to resolve the mysterious code that is
used to describe toggle switch function or as the link to the page says Terminal Town's: What
does SPDT Mean to a switch? Or
http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page81.html
Best regards,
John Caldwell@ Terminal Town's Home
Page
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Vortex Generators |
Can someone help me with the article and address to get info on the RV4
vortex generators? If anyone has installed them I would like to communicate
with them off line. Thanks, TT in Indy [Hr69GT@aol]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ivey <jim(at)jimivey.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Yak-List: New List MIME/HTML/Enclosure Filter Implemented... |
Everything you need to know can be found at the following url:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution/
I just used the secure credit-card option. There is also a snail-mail
address for you old-fashioned types (i.e. back in the good old days when
folks wouldn't abscond with your credit card info) ;)
Jim Ivey
N46YK
Matt Dralle wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> With the pervasiveness of email applications using HTML (web formatting)
> and MIME encoding such as AOL 6.0, Netscape, Eudora and others it was
> clear that I needed to come up with an improved method for limiting how
> messages posted to the various Lists was handled.
>
> As of today, November 13 2000 you should be able to configure your email
> program any way you like - with or without special formatting - and your
> message will still be accepted my the Matronics system. Also, if you
> include any sort of enclosure data, your message will also still be
> accepted instead of bounced back.
>
> But wait, it gets even better! Everything except for the plain text
> will be automatically stripped from the incoming post including any
> HTML, MIME, and/or enclosure data prior to redistribution. This should
> serve to both ease the configuration burden on the many users, and to
> increase the readability of both the posted messages and the archives.
>
> I had a few 'bugs' with the filter on Sunday and Monday morning, so if
> you received a few messages that seemed "odd", than this was probably
> why.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Matt Dralle
> Matronics Email List Admin.
>
> --
>
> Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
> Great minds discuss ideas,
> Average minds discuss events,
> Small minds discuss people...
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Deffner" <deffner(at)glade.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Hey now, come on guys. No secrets. The rest of us would like to learn
about these things too.
David in Texas
----- Original Message -----
From: <HR69GT(at)aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 10:38 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: Vortex Generators
>
> Can someone help me with the article and address to get info on the
RV4
> vortex generators? If anyone has installed them I would like to
communicate
> with them off line. Thanks, TT in Indy [Hr69GT@aol]
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rocket vortex generators |
In a message dated 11/15/00 1:58:55 AM Central Standard Time,
rocket-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
<< Can someone help me with the article and address to get info on the
RV4
> vortex generators? If anyone has installed them I would like to
communicate
> with them off line. Thanks, TT in Indy [Hr69GT@aol]
>
> >>
Hi Guys:
Larry Vetterman sells these -- about $400 per kit. Call him in Hot Springs SD
at: 605-745-5932. Some fairly amazing claims!
Cheers
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com> |
To who ever my be interested, I am building a F1 Rocket, kit number 19. I
added some more pictures to my website today. It is still not up to date
with my building but I can't seem to pull myself away from building long
enough to take pictures and add them to the site.
Any comments or questions are welcome. My E-mail address is
sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com
My website is
http://www.geocities.com/rocket_f1
Dig in and look around. It doesn't compare to a lot of the sites out their
but time always seems to be my enemy. I will attempt to keep the pictures
more current and maybe even add a bit of commentary as I decide on the many
details of the airplane.
scot
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Hall <tkhall(at)highland.net> |
| Subject: | front seat hinge, front floor panel, #5 crossmember |
Clear DayHere are a few items that I had run across that might be of
interest to other F1 builders. I haven't seen these on lists and hope
they will help those who follow.
1) Mark and I had discussed the possibility that the small crossmember
in the center of the #5 bulkhead could be attached (riveted) to front
floor panel. This small angle is riveted(in my ship) to two small tabs
on inboard side of the stringers. It must be removed for torque tube
placement, then re-attached...probably by nutplates. I have accomplished
the above and it seems to work well. I used existing holes after
drilling rivets. This necessitated using single lug nutplate due to size
of tab. It also means drilling #19 hole thru floor mount flange of front
seat hinge. Once this is done the crossmember adds itself as an
additional front floor panel stiffner and reinforces the front seat
hinge. The addition of the hinge and front floor material also should
add to its strength.
2) Front seat hinge-Mark also suggested removing two of the hinge
segments from the center of the 12" front seat hinge and splitting the
hinge pin. This is necesary since the hinge pin is too long to remove
laterally. One could just split hinge pin in the middle and pull out the
two halves laterally, but pins could vibrate out unless some mechanism
to hold in place is attached, such as drilling and pin with cotter key.
If the center segments are removed, then pins can be inserted from
center and block any chance of accidental withdrawal.
3) I also decided to dimple and countersink two of the front floor panel
rear edge attach screws on each side. These were the ones between the
front seat hinge and the fuse sides that lie in the path of the
passengers access to the rear foot wells and rudder pedals. This would
make one less thing to catch on and even under carpet would make this
area smoother.
I have some picts of these if anyone is interested.
Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
Larry,
You going to be around on the 26th? I'd love to see your project. I get in
in the morning from Narita, and am planning to have dinner with my sister in
law that evening, so if you are around, I could probably drop by in the late
afternoon.
Russ Werner
Narita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Broste" <spiritmoves(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List: What Listers Are Saying... |
Matt,
I think what you're doing is great for those of us flying and building Kolb
aircraft. You're probably saving Kolb a full time employee in tech support
just by providing the communication between builders. I know I have had a
half dozen questions answered here on the list and saved Kolb support a few
phone calls. You should forward this letter to Kolb, maybe they'd ante up,
too. It would be great PR for the TN Kolb a/c. Thanks a bunch, Matt!
Ken Broste
Building a Firestar
Tucson, AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 10:33 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: What Listers Are Saying...
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> During this year's List Fund Raiser I have been receiving a number of
> very nice comments from members regarding what the Lists mean to them.
> I'm sure most everyone can echo one or more of the thoughts expressed
> below. Won't you take a moment to make a Contribution to support the
> continued operation and improvment of your Lists?
>
> A special 'thank you' to everyone that has made a contribution so far
> and for all of the wonderful and supportive comments I've received!
>
>
> To make a contribution with a credit card over an SSL Secure Web Site,
> please go to the following URL:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> or, to make a contribution with a person check, please mail it to:
>
> Matronics
> c/o Matt Dralle
> PO Box 347
> Livermore, CA 94551
>
>
> Thank you!!
>
> Matt Dralle
> Email List Admin.
>
>
> ===================== Comments From List Members
========================
>
>
> * You helped make this dream a reality... -Terry C.
>
> * Thanks for a wonderful resource! -Rick J.
>
> * Thanks for providing a quality product. -Bill C.
>
> * Have found [the List] invaluable for education while building... -Rick
H.
>
>
> * I learn so much from the List! -Robert R.
>
> * [The List] is better than any aviation magazines I subscribe
o. -Roger H.
>
> * I enjoy the pages and find them very helpful. -Noel G.
>
> * The "List" is a great place to both receive and exten help and ideas
for
> building and making flying safer. -Jack B.
>
>
> * The discussions are very helpful. -James B.
>
> * ...I believe this List will be a better value than the
ewsletter. -Roger T.
>
> * [The List] has helped me with the construction of my RV-9. -Marty S.
>
> * VERY good reading. Excellent entertainment value. -Jerry I.
>
>
> * [The List] has saved me many hour on wild goose chases. -Billy W.
>
> * Thanks for keeping my passion for flying as piqued as ever. -Terry W.
>
> * Keep up the nice work. -Daniel H.
>
> * Thanks for all the effort on behalf of Sport Aviation! -Elbie M.
>
>
> * ...Great information source! -Richard W.
>
> * ...Thanks for your help and patience with a very difficult
ask. -Louis W.
>
> * [The List] has been a great asset. -Edward C.
>
> * Just started and already received some valuable tips. -Scott S.
>
>
> * Thanks for the List to let up share our passion. -Brian A.
>
> * ...This List is good stuff. -Russ D.
>
> * ...The single most helpful resource I've come across in
uilding. -Craig P.
>
> * ...Enjoy [the List] a lot. -John H.
>
>
> * The List is a most important tool to help building. -Brad R.
>
> * ...Really found the List to be great! -Geoff T.
>
> * Excellent contribution to the aviation community. -Larry B.
>
> * Great source of information... -William G.
>
>
> * The Lists ... make building a real hoot! -Jeff O.
>
> * The List has been invaluable. -Matt P.
>
> * Thanks for letting me use the site. It's great! -Larry M.
>
> * ...This List has been very helpful. -Larry H.
>
>
> * Greatest support ever for the builders and I have met many
riends. -Fred H.
>
> * ...I love this List and have met many new friends... -Tom E.
>
> * Love both the List and the Search Engine. -Roy G.
>
>
> ===================== Comments From List Members
========================
>
>
> --
>
>
> Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
> Great minds discuss ideas,
> Average minds discuss events,
> Small minds discuss people...
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Knight <knightair(at)lv.rmci.net> |
| Subject: | Knight Upholstery for Rocket |
Rocket Builders:
I have moved to Las Vegas. Please note my new telephone number and e-mail
address.
I have been in the upholstery business for 28 years and have been making
upholstery products for kitplanes for 16 years. I have interior kits
available for the Harmon Rocket. I also have cabin covers and other items.
I am the supplier of upholstery products for several kitplane manufacturers.
A list of other kitplane interior products available upon request.
For more information, call Knight Aircraft Interiors, Inc., at (702)
207-6681 or e-mail me at knightair(at)lv.rmci.net. If you e- mail for
information, please mention either "Knight" or "Upholstery" in your
reference line so I can give your request my immediate attention. Photos
available upon request.
Sincerely,
KNIGHT AIRCRAFT INTERIORS, INC.
"Fly by Knight" Upholstery Products
Sam Knight
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Hall <tkhall(at)highland.net> |
| Subject: | Tail wheel spring mount |
Fellow builders,
Mark and I have discovered a discrepancy with the newer tail wheel
springs and the previously issued instructions for drilling the tail wheel
spring and socket. While measuring the spring and its distances relative to
the forward bushing of the tail wheel mount socket, I noticed that, if the
hole was drilled as instructed (3/8" from rear of bushing) then it would
essentially miss the forward attach (machined) portion of the spring. (not a
good thing).
After discussing with Mark, he suggested that forward hole should be
moved fwd to approximate the center of the machined section of the spring.
He indicated that being aft of center on the machined portion by 1/8" would
be acceptable. Also remember to "bottom" spring against fwd mount then
slightly (~ 1/16 ") withdraw. It appeared that the rear machined part of
spring would be satisfactorily positioned with respect to the rear bushing
with this adjustment.
Additionally, the fwd move of the attach hole will probably cause
the hole thru the lower fuse to extend thru the attach flange of the
bulkhead. Mark said that this was not a problem. The lower hole can be made
as small as practical, since it only serves to allow access to the nut on
the bottom of the tail spring attach bolt.
I know that this is hard to visualize. I will try to photo or maybe
Mark can illustrate if anyone is confused.
Tom Hall
#15
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Mokry <RobMokry(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Big, big dimple dies |
Fred....Any more dimple dies left?
Fred Kunkel wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> On one of my shopping trips this week I came across a bunch of dimple
> dies with 3/8" shanks. They came out of a major aerospace manufacturing
> plant and are designed for some large squeezers/dimpling machines,
> although I'm not sure which ones. The sizes, though, are 3/32, 1/8,
> 3/16, #6 screw, #8 screw, & a couple #10 screws. These dies are in mint
> condition.
>
> I've seen posts in the past from individuals who have some of the larger
> squeezers/dimplers. If any individual, or particularily any Chapter or
> building group, has access to a tool that takes this size dimple dies,
> pls. email me off list & I'll donate a set of the dies to you.
>
> Blue Skies!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Hall <tkhall(at)highland.net> |
| Subject: | Drilling tail spring bolt |
An addendum to previous listing:
Drilling hole for attach bolt is clumsy due to confined space. Here is
the
way I tried and it seems to have worked well and kept hole centered and true
thru both mounting socket and spring.
1) Locate hole placement on top of socket and punch
2) Drill # 30 hole thru socket top only. Use 12" bit
3) Insert spring until edge can be seen in hole center
4) Mark spring at aft end of mounting socket and mark for 1/2 to 5/8 "
distance. This should fall near the rear edge of aft machined portion.
5) Insert spring to mark. This should place #30 hole in proper area of
spring (near middle of fwd machined section)
6) Drill thru mount socket #30 hole to mark spring
7) Remove spring and drill with press (and V block if you have one. If you
don't, do yourself a favor and get one!)
8) Reinsert spring and align holes, then drill thru bottom of socket and
thru fuse belly
9) Step drill hole up to appropriate size. This can be done from bottom
easily. Consider reaming to final diameter for best fit.
You can just grab a drill and poke a hole and hope, but this makes a nice
straight, centered hole. Hope this is of value.
Tom
#15
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Berryhill" <dwberryhill(at)home.com> |
Hello all. I'm a newbie to this list and I'm trying to decide on a plane
for my first project. Is it possible to convert an RV6 or 6A into a Rocket?
I checked the archives and didn't really find anything (although I doubt I'm
the first person to wonder about this).
I will probably never do any aero competition but I'd like to take some
lessons and try some tricks for fun and to improve my flying skills. I like
having side-by-side seating rather than tandem (actually, my girlfriend
likes it better than sitting in the back).
Or should I just stick with an RV for my first project? I know some people
do some mild aerobatics in the stock planes.
What do you all think?
Thanks,
Dave Berryhill
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi All:
Well, it looks like the thing is a keeper. I can't seem to trick it into
letting the RPM vary at all! One operational characteristic I noticed is that
it takes more lever movement inside the cockpit, which makes it easier to set
whatever RPM you want.
Looking into the cooling air inlet, this gov is actually hard to see, which
might even help with the engine cooling -- the other unit stuck out in the
breeze. This CZ unit is also much lighter -- more then 1 lb!
So: let me know if you still want one of these little gems -- I'll place the
order next week.
I asked the fellas if I could make the narrow- or wide-deck adjustments here,
and they told me it would be no problem. However, if you do know which engine
you have (or will have), that is good info for me to pass along, so that I
can get as many govs configured correctly as possible.
Cheers
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dany A. Pennington" <DanyPennington(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Rocket-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 12/08/00 |
Please un-subscribe me from this list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Kunkel <rvator(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Stocking Stuffers |
Hello Everyone,
Our web site is taking a little more time than
originally thought, so with apologies to Matt for
using his bandwidth, we're offering the following
stocking stuffers through Dec. 20th. All the drill
bits are first tier, NAS 907 135 degree split
point, production quality bits manufactured in the
U.S.
Jobbers Length HSS
#40 - $7.50/Dz.
#30 - $7.50/Dz.
#21 - $10.00/Dz.
Jobbers Length M42 Cobalt
#40 - $10.00/Dz.
#30 - $10.00/Dz.
#21 - $15.00/Dz.
1/4 - $4.00/2
6" HSS
#40 - $9.00/6
#30 - $10.00/6
#21 - $10.00/6
12" HSS
#40 - $12.00/6
#30 - $12.00/6
#10 - $12.00/4
1/4 - $12.00/4
HSS Threaded Drill Bits (Assorted Lengths)
#40 - $22.00/Dz.
#30 - $22.00/Dz.
Squeezer Yokes (NEW)
1.5" Std. Yoke - $70.00
2.5" Std. Yoke - $95.00
2.5" Thin Nose Yoke - $105.00
3" Std. Yoke - $105.00
Longeron Yoke - $115.00
Again, with apologies to Matt, if we can help you
pls. contact us off-list. Add $4.00 for shipping &
handling by Priority Mail.
Blue Skies!
________________________________________________________________________________
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509
| From: | CAPTAIN KAOS <kaos(at)captainkaos.com> |
F1builders lists" ,
Rocket list , A D FRYADFRY
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg
wow what a photo
From the space lab in space
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman Hunger" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: 3" Adel Clamps |
> Norman, I noticed you said "engine fire extinguisher".
> Under those conditions, the extinguisher is mounted out of reach,
> and is remotely triggered.
I'm going to mount this extiguisher on the floor between the two occupants
legs. The head is near the main wing spar (RV6A) so that the remote cable
can be eliminated. I just reach down, pull the pin, and squeeze. It will be
plumbed into a few nozzles under the cowl. The racing guys say the cables
are the first failure point in the system.
The bottle has been modified to have it's pick up in the middle at the
lowest point when lying on it's side. Caution to others with an idea like
this; you must make sure that the bottle is approved to fire in the
orientation you are planning to mount it or you won't get much output.
I have another bottle that is designed for hand held use that will be
mounted on top of the engine extinguisher. Both are Halon 1211 which is the
only type legal in Canada. I have built a solid structure in the center
channel of the floorboards that ties into the firewall and the seat pans to
mount both 5 lb extinguishers (3 lbs of Halon) and my 13 lb battery.
> Based on that, most racing shops have anodized aluminum
> mounting brackets in various diameters depending on bottle size.
> If it is to be mounted for ready access, the same places will have
> stainless quick-disconnect clamp mounts.
> Archie
I will now persue this avenue. Thanks Archie............Norman...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Archie" <archie97(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 3" Adel Clamps |
> I'm going to mount this extiguisher on the floor between the two occupants
> legs. The head is near the main wing spar (RV6A) so that the remote cable
> can be eliminated. I just reach down, pull the pin, and squeeze. It will
be
> plumbed into a few nozzles under the cowl. The racing guys say the cables
> are the first failure point in the system.
You have not spoken to REAL racers. I have 16 years in alcohol and nitro
cars,
believe me, it is fool proof. (unless they are using some sort of home-made,
or cheap system which I am not familiar with). Archie
> The bottle has been modified to have it's pick up in the middle at the
> lowest point when lying on it's side. Caution to others with an idea like
> this; you must make sure that the bottle is approved to fire in the
> orientation you are planning to mount it or you won't get much output.
>
> I have another bottle that is designed for hand held use that will be
> mounted on top of the engine extinguisher. Both are Halon 1211 which is
the
> only type legal in Canada. I have built a solid structure in the center
> channel of the floorboards that ties into the firewall and the seat pans
to
> mount both 5 lb extinguishers (3 lbs of Halon) and my 13 lb battery.
>
> > Based on that, most racing shops have anodized aluminum
> > mounting brackets in various diameters depending on bottle size.
> > If it is to be mounted for ready access, the same places will have
> > stainless quick-disconnect clamp mounts.
> > Archie
>
> I will now persue this avenue. Thanks Archie............Norman...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Monson <RMonson(at)fpfreedom.com> |
Thanks John. It's great!
-----Original Message-----
From: CAPTAIN KAOS [mailto:kaos(at)captainkaos.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 12:41 PM
FRYADFRY
Subject: Rocket-List: Worth a look
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg
wow what a photo
From the space lab in space
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Worth a look |
In a message dated 12/15/2000 10:58:26 AM Central Standard Time,
RMonson(at)fpfreedom.com writes:
Thanks John. It's great!
-----Original Message-----
From: CAPTAIN KAOS [mailto:kaos(at)captainkaos.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 12:41 PM
To: SPOOK F1builders lists; Rocket list; A D
FRYADFRY
Subject: Rocket-List: Worth a look
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg
wow what a photo
From the space lab in space
>>
whos john, Captain Kaos is grant booth from australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Hall <tkhall(at)highland.net> |
| Subject: | Rudder Trim Diagram |
Rudder Trim Diagram
----
The page was updated on
Return to Mike Nellis HOME Page
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jones15183(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim Diagram |
I keep seeing something coming up about rudder trim diagram,,,But there is no
dialoge in the message. Wats up????Billy Waters
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Hall <tkhall(at)highland.net> |
| Subject: | Rudder Trim Diagram |
See the link on the last message. It shows goes to a page that shows a trim
system on a -8.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Jones15183(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Rudder Trim Diagram
I keep seeing something coming up about rudder trim diagram,,,But there is
no
dialoge in the message. Wats up????Billy Waters
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
Hay Ross Anderson I need that other control column give me A call
(661)836-1028
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Hall <tkhall(at)highland.net> |
Fellow builders I came across a web page
http://tabshred.com/moe/jonsseat.htm) that has picture and info on seats
made and used by Jon Johansan in his RV. It is a racing type seat with side
bolsters. It is much more supportive than standard seat and wider. While
this probably will narrow rear seat foot room, in a Rocket, I doubt that it
will be critical. It comes with upholstery in your choice of several colors
and has option of carbon Kevlar (5#) or fiberglass(9#). It is pretty pricey
(what a/c component isnt!) but the real problem is that it is manufactured
in Aussieland and shipping is costly also. The up side is that shipping
enjoys an economy of scale. That is to say, shipping many does not cost much
more than shipping one. Mark and I felt that there might be sufficient
interest to make it feasible. Check out this webpage and look at the photo
of the seat. It has more details and Jons email. Anyone who is interested,
contact me or Mark and we will see if we can get order together.Tom Hall#15
________________________________________________________________________________
Actually I am sure if we could get to see these seats close up Marcus could
probably make them and I am sure that if there were a few people ordering
them the cost would be a lot less and they would be custom fit for a F1
rocket.
just my thoughts
chris wilcox kit 000
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)execulink.com> |
Tom
I have wondered if there is something different we can do with the seats
in these planes. While Jon's seats would probably do the job I believe that
they will be heavier, take more cabin room and the cost is quite high.
Others have talked about adapting race car seats but from email threads
weight seems to be a problem. In my rocket the rear seat was quite
comfortable. The only difference from the front was a wider and thicker
cushion. On my next plane I will make the front seat a little wider. I
realize that this will take some room from the passengers feet but there is
much more room in a rocket than a RV4, especially with heel wells. The
seats that I had were two hour seats, all I need is a three hour seat as
that is the limit of fuel available.
Tom Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Hall <tkhall(at)highland.net>
Sent: January 5, 2001 4:33 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: Seats
>
>
> Fellow builders I came across a web page
> http://tabshred.com/moe/jonsseat.htm) that has picture and info on seats
> made and used by Jon Johansan in his RV. It is a racing type seat with
side
> bolsters. It is much more supportive than standard seat and wider. While
> this probably will narrow rear seat foot room, in a Rocket, I doubt that
it
> will be critical. It comes with upholstery in your choice of several
colors
> and has option of carbon Kevlar (5#) or fiberglass(9#). It is pretty
pricey
> (what a/c component isnt!) but the real problem is that it is manufactured
> in Aussieland and shipping is costly also. The up side is that shipping
> enjoys an economy of scale. That is to say, shipping many does not cost
much
> more than shipping one. Mark and I felt that there might be sufficient
> interest to make it feasible. Check out this webpage and look at the
photo
> of the seat. It has more details and Jons email. Anyone who is
interested,
> contact me or Mark and we will see if we can get order together.Tom
Hall#15
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Hall <tkhall(at)highland.net> |
Actually, I'm sure that you are right. There are several US makers of race
seats and we could come up with something and pop a mold of the frame. The
question becomes by the time you find or buy a frame, make the mold, lay up
in carbon Kevlar, make mounting hardware, get comforfoam and upholster,
would it cost any less in the numbers that we might have. On the other hand,
we could make it very light and customize the pad, and covering materials.
However, I doubt it would be much lighter than the 4.9 # of this seat. I
don't know what the stock seat wts, but the back alone without pad or
upholstery probably wts 2-3 # and that's forgetting the bottom. Any body out
there with any other ideas or enough expertise in composites to shed some
light on my illiterate Hillbilly ramblings??
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of CW9371(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Seats
Actually I am sure if we could get to see these seats close up Marcus could
probably make them and I am sure that if there were a few people ordering
them the cost would be a lot less and they would be custom fit for a F1
rocket.
just my thoughts
chris wilcox kit 000
________________________________________________________________________________
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509
| From: | CAPTAIN KAOS <kaos(at)captainkaos.com> |
On 6/1/01 9:51 AM, "Tom Hall" wrote:
>
> Actually, I'm sure that you are right. There are several US makers of race
> seats and we could come up with something and pop a mold of the frame. The
> question becomes by the time you find or buy a frame, make the mold, lay up
> in carbon Kevlar, make mounting hardware, get comforfoam and upholster,
> would it cost any less in the numbers that we might have. On the other hand,
> we could make it very light and customize the pad, and covering materials.
> However, I doubt it would be much lighter than the 4.9 # of this seat. I
> don't know what the stock seat wts, but the back alone without pad or
> upholstery probably wts 2-3 # and that's forgetting the bottom. Any body out
> there with any other ideas or enough expertise in composites to shed some
> light on my illiterate Hillbilly ramblings??
>
> Tom
TO ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS
THE SEAT MANUFACTOR IS VELO AND THERE PHONE NO IS 08 8369 0055
(618 8369 0055 IF RINGING FROM THE STATES )
IN
adelaide
AUSTRALIA
I WILL RING ON MONDAY AN FIND OUT THE COST
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry E. James" <larryj(at)oz.net> |
From: CW9371(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Seats
Actually I am sure if we could get to see these seats close up Marcus could
probably make them and I am sure that if there were a few people ordering
them the cost would be a lot less and they would be custom fit for a F1
rocket.
just my thoughts
chris wilcox kit 000
Just my thoughts........but have any of you thought about intellectual
property rights; or just plain good common sense ??? I'll bet you are
suggesting someone purchases a product so that you or someone (Marcus or
Mark?) can pull a mold off it to produce it on their own: smacks of a rip
off........but I suppose if you are OK with the whole f1 rocket plagiary and
the hot wing tip rip off, you'd be OK with this too. Again, just my
thoughts.
On a constructive note, I have pursued this path, and the caveat for me is
my criteria of accommodating a parachute. There are plenty of race car
seats produced that would work well in this application save this criteria.
The 2001 Demon Tweeks catalogue (+ 44 0906 250 1501) has a good selection of
composite seats and one very interesting fabricated aluminum one (page 73)
made by Kirkey. There are also plenty of US race car parts distributors
with these kinds of seats. My experience with seats has led me to always
mold the seat to me for each specific car....this creates a seat perfectly
fitted to my body for each particular car that needs no padding whatsoever
and has no pressure points to create pain or fatigue and transfers the most
positive feedback. I will most likely do same in my Rocket too.....this
time wearing a chute during foaming !!!!!
Cheers,
Larry E James
Bellevue, WA
Harmon Rocket II
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 1/6/2001 9:48:48 PM Central Standard Time, larryj(at)oz.net
writes:
<< Just my thoughts........but have any of you thought about intellectual
property rights; or just plain good common sense ??? I'll bet you are
suggesting someone purchases a product so that you or someone (Marcus or
Mark?) can pull a mold off it to produce it on their own: smacks of a rip
off........but I suppose if you are OK with the whole f1 rocket plagiary and
the hot wing tip rip off, you'd be OK with this too. Again, just my
thoughts.
>>
Dear Larry E James,
Actually what I was suggesting is that Marcus look at the seat and then
design one to fit the F1. I never said a damn thing about someone buying
them and Marcus making a mold off of it. Then again there is no point in
that since it would not fit. What I was saying and am saying is that Marcus
can make a mold of a similiar style to fit a F1 perfectly and we could have a
great seat.
In regards to your comment about the F1 rocket plagiary, what are you talking
about? The Harmon is an improved RV4 and thats ok, but the F1 which is an
improved Harmon isn't. That doesn't make sense. But you can have your
opinion regardless.
Chris Wilcox
F1 rocket kit 000
________________________________________________________________________________
I love my Rocket II and I want to thank my friend John for plagiarizing
Van's RV4. I wonder if Van holds it against him? If he had not done that I
would probably be flying a 125HP, fixed pitched, RV4. Thank you John. I hope
Mark and all the rest keep on with the plagarism so I don't have to [shudder,
gasp] fly that wonderful little RV4 and can go on Rocketing. I hope there is
someone out there who is going to plagiarize Mark and come up with a Rocket
III or F2. TT in Indy
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Team Rocket Stigma (was: seat) |
In a message dated 01/07/2001 2:11:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
CW9371(at)aol.com writes:
(Stuff Cut)
> In regards to your comment about the F1 rocket plagiary, what are you
> talking
> about? The Harmon is an improved RV4 and thats ok, but the F1 which is an
> improved Harmon isn't. That doesn't make sense. But you can have your
>
F1 rocket plagiary isn't the issue. It's really an issue of business ethics.
From what I've heard;
When John Harmon developed the Harmon Rocket 2 (HR2). John discussed the
possibility of a business arrangement with Van's Aircraft, but they mutually
agreed to go their separate ways. (HR2 vs. RV-8)
Team Rocket and John Harmon had a business agreement where Team Rocket would
provide a HR2 quick build kit. John Harmon provided the HR2 design to Team
Rocket as his part of the agreement.
For reasons of their own, Team Rocket unilaterally decided to NOT honor their
business agreement with John Harmon.
I don't know what Mark's involvement has been with that agreement. And the
Team Rocket company has been reorganized. (Regardless, Mark has the F1
Rocket with a company stigma of poor business ethics.)
My own observation of John Harmon's attitude is that this Team Rocket company
stigma is a bigger burden for Team Rocket than the original business
agreement.
I just thought the F-1 Rocket people should have a feeling for where some of
the animosity is coming from in the discussion between HR2 builders vs. F-1
Rocket builders.
BTW, is there any flight performance data available from a F-1 Rocket
QuickBuild?
It sure would add credibility to the F-1 Rocket claim that it performs better
than the HR2. :-)
Jim Ayers
HR2 sn 269 mounting canopy on fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Emrath" <Emrath(at)home.com> |
Larry, could you please describe the process you take to make your seats.
I'd like to think about doing something on this order for my RV6A when I
get
to that point
Marty in Brentwood TN, Fuselage skinning - still.
Larry wrote:
<>
On a constructive note, I have pursued this path, and the caveat for me is
my criteria of accommodating a parachute. There are plenty of race car
seats produced that would work well in this application save this criteria.
The 2001 Demon Tweeks catalogue (+ 44 0906 250 1501) has a good selection of
composite seats and one very interesting fabricated aluminum one (page 73)
made by Kirkey. There are also plenty of US race car parts distributors
with these kinds of seats. My experience with seats has led me to always
mold the seat to me for each specific car....this creates a seat perfectly
fitted to my body for each particular car that needs no padding whatsoever
and has no pressure points to create pain or fatigue and transfers the most
positive feedback. I will most likely do same in my Rocket too.....this
time wearing a chute during foaming !!!!!
Cheers,
Larry E James
Bellevue, WA
Harmon Rocket II
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry E. James" <larryj(at)oz.net> |
Actually, many of the existing race car seats will work very nicely in a
Rocket (or -4). The Velo seat distributed by Jon is simply an off-the-shelf
race car seat. So, if one does not have the criteria of accommodating a
parachute, any of these is a viable candidate and no design and production
of a new product is necessary. Of course, it should go without saying that
there would be nothing wrong with creating a new and unique master, mold,
and subsequent parts aimed specifically at our market.
To answer what I have done in the past and will most likely do with my
Rocket: the idea is to come up with a foam insert that fits into your
desired cavity (airframe) and is molded to your body in your desired seating
position. A perfectly fitted seat needs no cushioning as there are no
pressure points to create fatigue or pain. Steps: 1) build a temporary
sheet structure fitting exactly the space the seat will occupy 2) get a
(some) big garbage bag(s), mix some foam and quickly sit (settle) into the
foamed bag in your airplane (car). With some envisioning (sorry, this seems
a bit difficult to explain well) you will end up with a block of foam within
a plastic bag that approximates a seat. You then remove the bag (scrape,
tug, sand etc.) and sand the seat to get rid of any irregularities, and
finally you glass over the entire unit. The result is very light, well
fitting seat, and if done properly affords a great deal of impact resistance
/ energy absorption. I know of, but have not used, some foam / resin bead
systems ready made to do this and distributed by race car parts
distributors.
As far as plagiarism goes, I'm surprised that some people don't see or
recognize the subtle differences between Van/John and John/Mark. The
earlier post outlining the business dealings between both does well in
explaining this (in my opinion). There is, in my mind, a distinct
difference between design evolution and plagiarism. To further support my
misgivings about Team Rocket, I have to look no further than their business
dealings.
When I first learned of Mark, I was told that he was going to produce a QB
Rocket under a sort of licensing arrangement with John; a sound business
relationship. Not knowing any better, I asked Mark where to find Hot Wing
Tips and he told me that he was the guy. I ordered some, and after a lot of
song-and-dance and delays, I asked John about them, who told me that Ollie
Brennan and Dan Potter were the originators. In speaking with Ollie, he
indicated that he had sold one set of Hot Wing Tips to Mark, and that he,
Dan and a friend of theirs had developed them in the first place. Later, in
conversation with Mark, I asked him about this, and posed my observation
that this market simply wasn't big enough to support multiple manufacturers
of most products; so it didn't make sense (or hold to any morals) for him to
take the work (intellectual property) of others. A total market size of say
250 to 500 wingtips is not enough to support one person; let alone two or
three. The person(s) with the mind to figure it out and the sweat to make
it happen should be the one to reap the reward. In this case, it was the
fool that bought one pair of tips, pulled a mold off them and now offers
them for sale.
The same argument can be made for the f1 vrs Harmon Rocket II, albeit with
more convolutes that admittedly cloud the issues somewhat......but the
principles remain. My only impetus for saying all this is to do what I
think to be right. If I were in John's shoes, I would be quiet and gracious
also.....letting the chips fall where they may. But I would also be very
grateful knowing that others had spoken up in my defense; clearly (this
"clearly" part may be my downfall) letting people know the full story so
that better judgements could be made. I think John has been most gracious,
and all too many of Team Rocket's followers over zealous and outspoken in
their rationalizations for Team Rocket, and felt it time to speak my peace.
Cheers,
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
THANK YOU LARRY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
Hey Folks,
as a HRII builder "wannabe" I just wanted to say I have literally dreamed of
having a Harmon Rocket II since the first time I laid eyes on it several
years ago.
I was able to sit in the prototype at Sun-n-Fun '96, even had set up with
John's friend Ted to get a test flight(due to a schedule problem, it was not
to be.. :-(
Because I was in the process of building a rag and tube aircraft,and other
considerations,($$$$$) the HRII just hasn't happened yet.Some day, it will.
Anyway, I just wanted to say I had ordered John's info. pack, and called and
bugged him a few times over the years.Even with no real financial incentive
from me, John was always very patient with all my questions, and gracious
towards me.
The HRII pilots I have spoken to have all commented on John's helpfulness in
construction and how GREAT his plane flies.
I know nothing about the business dealings of John and Team Rocket,I only
hope that if there was a "conflict" that it would be settled in a manner
which would benefit the design, the builders,and credit would be given where
credit is due!
Rick
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Does anyone know of a race car seat manufacturer that fits in the rocket?
Thanks,
Ernest
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Larry E.
James
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 8:45 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: seat
Actually, many of the existing race car seats will work very nicely in a
Rocket (or -4). The Velo seat distributed by Jon is simply an off-the-shelf
race car seat. So, if one does not have the criteria of accommodating a
parachute, any of these is a viable candidate and no design and production
of a new product is necessary. Of course, it should go without saying that
there would be nothing wrong with creating a new and unique master, mold,
and subsequent parts aimed specifically at our market.
To answer what I have done in the past and will most likely do with my
Rocket: the idea is to come up with a foam insert that fits into your
desired cavity (airframe) and is molded to your body in your desired seating
position. A perfectly fitted seat needs no cushioning as there are no
pressure points to create fatigue or pain. Steps: 1) build a temporary
sheet structure fitting exactly the space the seat will occupy 2) get a
(some) big garbage bag(s), mix some foam and quickly sit (settle) into the
foamed bag in your airplane (car). With some envisioning (sorry, this seems
a bit difficult to explain well) you will end up with a block of foam within
a plastic bag that approximates a seat. You then remove the bag (scrape,
tug, sand etc.) and sand the seat to get rid of any irregularities, and
finally you glass over the entire unit. The result is very light, well
fitting seat, and if done properly affords a great deal of impact resistance
/ energy absorption. I know of, but have not used, some foam / resin bead
systems ready made to do this and distributed by race car parts
distributors.
As far as plagiarism goes, I'm surprised that some people don't see or
recognize the subtle differences between Van/John and John/Mark. The
earlier post outlining the business dealings between both does well in
explaining this (in my opinion). There is, in my mind, a distinct
difference between design evolution and plagiarism. To further support my
misgivings about Team Rocket, I have to look no further than their business
dealings.
When I first learned of Mark, I was told that he was going to produce a QB
Rocket under a sort of licensing arrangement with John; a sound business
relationship. Not knowing any better, I asked Mark where to find Hot Wing
Tips and he told me that he was the guy. I ordered some, and after a lot of
song-and-dance and delays, I asked John about them, who told me that Ollie
Brennan and Dan Potter were the originators. In speaking with Ollie, he
indicated that he had sold one set of Hot Wing Tips to Mark, and that he,
Dan and a friend of theirs had developed them in the first place. Later, in
conversation with Mark, I asked him about this, and posed my observation
that this market simply wasn't big enough to support multiple manufacturers
of most products; so it didn't make sense (or hold to any morals) for him to
take the work (intellectual property) of others. A total market size of say
250 to 500 wingtips is not enough to support one person; let alone two or
three. The person(s) with the mind to figure it out and the sweat to make
it happen should be the one to reap the reward. In this case, it was the
fool that bought one pair of tips, pulled a mold off them and now offers
them for sale.
The same argument can be made for the f1 vrs Harmon Rocket II, albeit with
more convolutes that admittedly cloud the issues somewhat......but the
principles remain. My only impetus for saying all this is to do what I
think to be right. If I were in John's shoes, I would be quiet and gracious
also.....letting the chips fall where they may. But I would also be very
grateful knowing that others had spoken up in my defense; clearly (this
"clearly" part may be my downfall) letting people know the full story so
that better judgements could be made. I think John has been most gracious,
and all too many of Team Rocket's followers over zealous and outspoken in
their rationalizations for Team Rocket, and felt it time to speak my peace.
Cheers,
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
Hi All,
When I bought a car, I didn't obtain any control over how that company did
business.
As a HR2 builder, I witnessed another HR2 builder/pilot berate a new F-1
Rocket QB builder for buying that product. It seemed inappropriate then. And
now.
In buying either a HR2, or a F-1 Rocket, the purchaser does no obtain any
control over how that company does business.
To me, to berate someone for their choice is like teaching a pig to sing; It
frustrates the teacher, and only irritates the pig.
BTW, That is a quote, not an analogy. (Some people are so sensitive.) :-)
Jim Ayers
RV-3 N47RV Maroon Marauder (using the same engine, 9% faster on 6% less
power than the prototype RV-3)
HR2 sn 269 mounting canopy
Less Drag Products, Inc.
In a message dated 01/08/2001 7:46:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rollnloop(at)hotmail.com writes:
> I know nothing about the business dealings of John and Team Rocket, I only
> hope that if there was a "conflict" that it would be settled in a manner
> which would benefit the design, the builders, and credit would be given
> where
> credit is due!
> Rick
>
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 1/8/2001 8:48:33 PM Central Standard Time, larryj(at)oz.net
writes:
<< I think John has been most gracious,
and all too many of Team Rocket's followers over zealous and outspoken in
their rationalizations for Team Rocket, and felt it time to speak my peace.
Cheers,
Larry
>>
Well, I won't comment about john or even team rocket. But it does help when
you know the facts as in all off them. I am also very sorry that my post
about making a carbon fiber seat started this whole mess.
Chris Wilcox
F1 rocket kit 000
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Archie" <archie97(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
Gentlemen:
I held off as long as possible, but have to comment.
We do not have a long life span, why shorten it by
becoming emotionally wrapped up in subjects that we
have choices in. (and we have many).
The masses will be the ultimate determinant as to who
has the "better" product and support, and if they are
equally as good with identifiable idiosyncrasies, can
everyone be pleased?
Let us just continue on this site with exchanges of ideas
as intended, and stop stabbing people in the back.
If an individual has a problem with a supplier, and some
are justified, just deal with it. Most problems can be
worked out in a rational manner.
This has happened to me several times, and on occasion
have found the fault was mine. We are not infallible.
Archie Frangoudis
Archie's Racing Service
N.H.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry E. James" <larryj(at)oz.net> |
Does anyone know of a race car seat manufacturer that fits in the rocket?
Thanks,
Ernest
Kirkey makes aluminum seats in widths from 14" to 17" in 1/2" increments.
Sparco makes composite seats in fiberglass or graphite in various sizes and
form factors weighing between 15 lbs and 10.4 lbs;
Recaro makes composite seats again in various materials, form factors and
weights.
Cobra makes composite seats with the lightest being 9.5 lbs.
OMP makes composite seats with the lightest being 15.2 lbs.
A local (Seattle, WA) motorsports retailer, SpeedWare, stocks some of these
and will order any of them. There are any number of motorsports suppliers
in the US; http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/
http://www.truechoice.com/
http://www.summitracing.com/
Most of these seats come in various shapes and sizes........you can figure
out which one(s) fits your needs best.
Cheers,
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman Hunger" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
| Subject: | Product Report - Interior Light |
I was looking for some small lights to put in the luggage areas and the
footwells. For $6.41 Canadian ($4.27 USD) I settled on a good looking cheapo
from the local auto parts store. It is Grote part number 61501. North
American Listers will be able to find this locally at any auto parts store,
just ask. I went to a big store and they still had to order them in.
The lamp can be seen at:
http://grote.com/prodcat/prodcat.htm
Their home page is at:
http://grote.com/
This lamp burns only 0.27 amps. They are very effective when used in pairs
at around 24" apart. Wipes out the shadows as one rummages around at night.
I want two on the rear luggage bulkhead and two in the footwells. They need
to be focused within 24" as they aren't very powerful. I don't know what to
think about using them for the panel, they might not be appropriate. I have
other plans there. For map lights I'm using two of Van's Rotating Map/Panel
Lights (P/N LC Maplight 300 $39.95 USD) on the tip up frame.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SignCo" <signco(at)flash.net> |
I have seen some guys using some tiny lights on the wing tips next to the
position lights.
I think the lights are from HomeDepot or something like that.
Comments I have heard is that it gets hot after so many minutes and will
bend the clear lexan covers.
Has anyone done it and resolved the heat issue and would like to share how
to set up?
Are those lights powerful enough?
Thanks,
L.E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | irving(at)innercite.com (Jim Irving) |
At 10:56 1/11/01, SignCo wrote:
>I have seen some guys using some tiny lights on the wing tips next to the
>position lights.
>I think the lights are from HomeDepot or something like that.
>Comments I have heard is that it gets hot after so many minutes and will
>bend the clear lexan covers.
>Has anyone done it and resolved the heat issue and would like to share how
>to set up?
>Are those lights powerful enough?
My son uses one of them in his Thorpe T18. The light does get hot but he
hasn't had a problem with over heating the covers. His are mounted in the
wing where there is air circulating around the light assembly to cool
everything. Mounting it in a closed area, such as the tip would trap the
heat and might cause a problem.
As to power the light 75 watts and give, according to him, plenty of light
for landing. I intend to use them on my Rocket.
The lights are not sold by HomeDepot. The highest wattage sold there is 40
watts and they are not the narrow beam reflector. We got ours out of
either the Granger or McMaster-Carr catalog. The light bulb is produced by
Phillips and costs about $5. I don't have the bulb in front of me so I
don't have the part number. If you'd like the part number send me a message
offline and I'll send it to you..
Cheers
Jim Irving
irving(at)plv2.innercite.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Elmshoot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 01/14/01 |
I saw on another news group the USAF has decided to scrap the T-3A Firefly
trainer they had bought for use at the Airforce Academy. After numerous
unexplained power loss mishaps some with fatilitys they are going to scrap
the plane. I also read in AVweek&Space tech that the engines had been
disassembled.
My question is does anyone know what engines these are and do they have any
application in the rocket?
Sparky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Reiff" <Reiff(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
Does HR Rocket and F1 Rocket each have a web site where I can get
"educated"?
I've decided to sell my half built RV4 kit and order a RV8 QB, but then I
talked to Bob DeFord yesterday, who is building a full scale Spitfire
replica in Prescott, AZ. He was trying to talk me into building a Rocket
instead of RV8. Maybe I'll look into that before ordering the 8.
Also, any comments pro or con would be welcome.
Thanks.
Bob Reiff
Reiff Preheat Systems
www.execpc.com/reiff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
In a message dated 1/19/2001 11:09:04 AM Central Standard Time,
Reiff(at)execpc.com writes:
<< Does HR Rocket and F1 Rocket each have a web site where I can get
"educated"?
I've decided to sell my half built RV4 kit and order a RV8 QB, but then I
talked to Bob DeFord yesterday, who is building a full scale Spitfire
replica in Prescott, AZ. He was trying to talk me into building a Rocket
instead of RV8. Maybe I'll look into that before ordering the 8.
Also, any comments pro or con would be welcome.
>>
The website for team rocket is www.teamrocketaircraft.com I don't know if
John has one for the Harmon Rocket. Basically they are similiar and both are
very good aircraft. The big difference is the F1 is a quick build and the
Harmon is a RV 4 plus the harmon parts to form one big slow build kit. Team
rocket is or will be offering a slow build kit in the near future.
I went with the F1 since i have no building experience, and dont have the
2000 plus hours to build a harmon. I also like dealing with Mark Fredricks
who owns team rocket.
I know I will be flamed for this, but give Mark a call. He has build 5 to 8
Harmons and he owns team rocket. His own aircraft is a Harmon that has some
f1 mods on it. But to be fair give John a call to.
Chris Wilcox
F1 rocket kit 000
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
I am the #1 customer for the Fredrick F-1 and am totally pleased with the kit as
well as the assistance and service... I was going to build a RV-8 and switched.
Send me a note at my E-mail address for more if yu wish.. Larry #001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Berryhill" <dwberryhill(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
There is a private site, not hosted by either Harmon or F1, that gives some
info on both: http://www.usi.edu/CHEM/FACULTY/vfrazier/Page1.html
Dave Berryhill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Check out Harmon Rocket LLC. |
Click here: Harmon Rocket LLC.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)execulink.com> |
| Subject: | HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
Bob,
email me directly, I am almost done my second HR2, I might be able to tell
you if you are too far along with the other project. BTW, I had one of your
heat pads on my rocket and it worked great.
Tom Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Reiff
Sent: January 19, 2001 12:18 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket
Does HR Rocket and F1 Rocket each have a web site where I can get
"educated"?
I've decided to sell my half built RV4 kit and order a RV8 QB, but then I
talked to Bob DeFord yesterday, who is building a full scale Spitfire
replica in Prescott, AZ. He was trying to talk me into building a Rocket
instead of RV8. Maybe I'll look into that before ordering the 8.
Also, any comments pro or con would be welcome.
Thanks.
Bob Reiff
Reiff Preheat Systems
www.execpc.com/reiff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gummos" <tg1965(at)linkline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HR Rocket vs F1 Rocket |
Hi Bob,
> Does HR Rocket and F1 Rocket each have a web site where I can get
> "educated"?
John doesn't have a web site.
I am a HR-II builder. I started with a RV-4 tail kit and when I heard about
the Harmon Rocket II, I switched. I can't comment on the RV-8 as I have
never seen one and it was not available when I had to make my choice.
However, I think the Harmon Rocket is better looking and of course has
better performance (there is no such thing as too much HP).
As for John and Mark, I have met both and think they are both easy to work
with.
As for the F-1 QB kit, the cost was too much for me (the cost of the QB RV-8
would be too). So, you can see "where I am coming from." Your ability to
take a half finished RV-4 and turn it into a Harmon Rocket would be a big
question. For example, if your half build kit means your wings are done
then I would guess you are already too far into the construction to switch.
(PLEASE CONTACT JOHN HARMON AS I AM NOT A GOOD SOURCE OF INFORMATION ABOUT
THIS).
hr2pilot(at)aol.com
For me, I was able to find a IO-540 for much less than any O/IO-320 or 360.
The difference in the cost paid for the parts I needed from John. I believe
the cost of my Rocket will be less than the cost of a RV-4.
Anyway, jump in the "Rocket" pond, the water is fine. Please fly over and
see my project.
Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Moving to the airport soon.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FlyinJon(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Check out Harmon Rocket LLC. |
Neat-John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Fuselage jig (HRII) |
Rocketeers,
I'm assembling the pile of steel into a fuse jig and have a question:
The long members are shown 176" when measured square. Is this a required
dimension or are they just 176" long along their length? It is a bit of a
pain to measure that one if it is measured square, and easy if they are just
176" long. Measured square, it seems they would be slightly longer due to
the angle in from front to aft.
I'm not getting a good visualization on what is going to happen with the
tall uprights at the forward end. I can see the 4 holes that correspond
with those on the motor mount, but it appears from the drawings that they
will end up a couple of inches in front of the firewall. This sound right?
Anyone have photos online of a HRII fuse in the jig?
Aloha,
Russ
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage jig (HRII) |
Hi Russ,
Hope the attachment helps.
Jim Ayers
________________________________________________________________________________
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage jig (HRII) |
| From: | CAPTAIN KAOS <kaos(at)captainkaos.com> |
On 20/1/01 4:33 PM, "Russ Werner" wrote:
>
> Rocketeers,
>
> I'm assembling the pile of steel into a fuse jig and have a question:
>
> The long members are shown 176" when measured square. Is this a required
> dimension or are they just 176" long along their length? It is a bit of a
> pain to measure that one if it is measured square, and easy if they are just
> 176" long. Measured square, it seems they would be slightly longer due to
> the angle in from front to aft.
>
> I'm not getting a good visualization on what is going to happen with the
> tall uprights at the forward end. I can see the 4 holes that correspond
> with those on the motor mount, but it appears from the drawings that they
> will end up a couple of inches in front of the firewall. This sound right?
>
> Anyone have photos online of a HRII fuse in the jig?
>
> Aloha,
>
> Russ
The true length is 176.3 (cut length ) worked out on cad 14
Because of the angle is so little it dont matter
as long as you take your measurements from the end and work your way back
This is johns drw put on to cad if you have cad I can give you a copy or
convert to jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JessiNite(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Check out Harmon Rocket LLC |
One question on your website John, that article in the about us section.
Isnt that the article the one by Budd Davidson. Didn't he write that about
Marks plane and all the pictures were of Mark and his rocket. I see you
changed the pics, well most of them anyways, as there still one pic of Marks
plane on your website in the article. I am wondering why you don't give Budd
credit for using his article and changing it. Also why isnt it posted that
its used with his permission and that of the magazine it was in. Anyways
here is the link to buds site for the article as it he wrote it with the
correct pictures. http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepRocketII.html.
Also I would have liked to see the pics but none of them loaded after the
first page.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Sather" <sather1(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Check out Harmon Rocket LLC |
Splittin Hairs JessiNite. Whats your point.
----- Original Message -----
From: <JessiNite(at)aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Check out Harmon Rocket LLC
>
> One question on your website John, that article in the about us section.
> Isnt that the article the one by Budd Davidson. Didn't he write that
about
> Marks plane and all the pictures were of Mark and his rocket. I see you
> changed the pics, well most of them anyways, as there still one pic of
Marks
> plane on your website in the article. I am wondering why you don't give
Budd
> credit for using his article and changing it. Also why isnt it posted
that
> its used with his permission and that of the magazine it was in. Anyways
> here is the link to buds site for the article as it he wrote it with the
> correct pictures. http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepRocketII.html.
> Also I would have liked to see the pics but none of them loaded after the
> first page.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Check out Harmon Rocket LLC |
Wait a second here. Theres this big stink about Mark building the F1 and hes
a rip off artist. But its ok for John to take a piece of copyrighted
material and use it and change it. Thats my problem with it. Both these
guys are good guys making good products. But people need to get off there
high horse and stop trying to crucify the other guy.
I mean yes I like Mark and Team rocket and I think there doing great. If i
wanted to deal with vans and John and the money was more important to me then
time I would have gone with the Harmon. I then would have bought from both
of them.
People who own these planes are suppose to be adults, but the more I see on
this list and the RV list is that there spoiled children. WHo like to point
fingers and say mine is bigger better faster then yours. I am probably the
child on the list since I am 29 and bought my F1 rocket kit at 28. I know i
have done the finger pointing in the past and I appoligize for it. But these
aircraft are close enough competitors that the main difference is the QB kit
for most people. Yes there are many other difference. Wings, skin
thickness, landing gear, slider vs flip, nose weight, etc etc etc etc. They
do add up, but for most people it comes down to the QB. If thats the not the
question then it comes down to who you like the most John or Mark. After
that its the kit themselves. But regardless these are both fine aircraft.
I mean that article proves it. The article details a harmon rocket which
happens to have been build by Mark and owned by him.
I guess I am going on and on and its getting a little wordy here, but i just
got home from going out. Hey I am a kid. But anyways this a small market of
specialized planes and we should all be able to get along. If you can't well
I have some words for you that I won't use on this list.
Chris Wilcox
F1 rocket kit YF-000
In a message dated 1/20/2001 10:42:10 PM Central Standard Time,
sather1(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
<<
Splittin Hairs JessiNite. Whats your point.
----- Original Message -----
From: <JessiNite(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Check out Harmon Rocket LLC
>
> One question on your website John, that article in the about us section.
> Isnt that the article the one by Budd Davidson. Didn't he write that
about
> Marks plane and all the pictures were of Mark and his rocket. I see you
> changed the pics, well most of them anyways, as there still one pic of
Marks
> plane on your website in the article. I am wondering why you don't give
Budd
> credit for using his article and changing it. Also why isnt it posted
that
> its used with his permission and that of the magazine it was in. Anyways
> here is the link to buds site for the article as it he wrote it with the
> correct pictures. http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepRocketII.html.
> Also I would have liked to see the pics but none of them loaded after the
> first page.
>
> >>
________________________________________________________________________________
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
| Subject: | Fun week end project for the do it yourselfer |
| From: | Gary Graham <beeb(at)teleport.com> |
SEAT THREAD
Story Time:
Back in time between the Rocket I and the Rocket II, I was building on an
RV-4(early plans #19). This plane is a basic low budget, small motor, wood
prop, ride, with one notable exception. It is a fastback ( to get the more
performance from the O-320). I designed a modified canopy and had it vacuum
drawn by GeeBee in the Seattle area. I then built the aft fuselage top to
match the flow lines of the canopy (made my own bulkheads). All was well
until I realized that Glen had drawn the plastic 2" short of my specified
height. This meant I had to cut down the roll bar. The next problem was
head room as I am long wasted. I had to sit low behind the spar carry
through to provide rough air clearance. I also needed a space for my
parachute (a seat pack was not an option for me). My seat back and roll bar
position were made to plans.
You are wondering why I am posting to the rocket list. Who is this climb
challenged person? I happen to be fascinated by the innovations that people
like John have and are experimenting with. Also, in a small way, I have
contributed to the evolution of the Rocket. It was my canopy design that
GeeBee provided to John for the Rocket II. I digress.
Seat Thread:
Object: Comfort, weight, cost, durable, parachute, passenger feet (foot
wells).
Results:
Comfort = excellent!!!!!!!! (select the curve that matches your rear end)
Weight = Mine is about 1 lb.
Cost = $5.00 and some shop supplies (do I have the attention of you
budget minded guys?)
Durable = Will withstand foot weight of a person who can fit in the RV-4.
Parachute = Softie from Dan at Arlington, WA. (standard pack-thin at bottom
so it doesn't push hips forward. The top of the seat back is angled back ~
1.25". (hooked behind roll over cross bar). When not using the parachute.
A foam pad of choice can be Velcroed to Std. seat back.
Feet Wells = No problem
Ingredients:
Shopping (this is the part we all hate - rather be building right? To make
it easy, take a small tape measure and your butt where ever you go. Stop by
the store section that sells the plastic stackable chairs. You are looking
for the chairs made by U. S. Leisure. (or maybe another brand found in your
state). The SYROCO brand is generally NOT suitable (too wide, too flat seat
pan, and not the necessary under side bracing). You are looking for a seat
pan that measures 15" just aft of the arm risers and gets narrow towards the
back. Good Luck with this phase.
Cut off the legs, back and arm risers (leave a little on the first cuts,
especially the arm risers, until you start the fitting process). The back
of my seat pan sits on the floor and the front clears the spar by a fraction
(the aft spar bulkhead is shaved down a little for fit - it is a nuisance
anyway). The front edge of these seats are rolled over nicely for comfort,
but some front edge may have to be cut away in the middle for stick
clearance. The back bottom seat pan bracing is beveled to make a broad
contact with the floor of the cockpit. I made a wedge out of lightweight
redwood, notched to fit the front edge of the seat pan and fastened it with
single screw through the plastic into the wood. This wedge spreads the load
of the seat front over the center box structure and is a cantilever support
for the outer edges under my legs. There is thin rubber to protect the
paint. A small portion of the arm riser was left for leg, side support.
The seat is only fastened to the plane at the back two corners via 1" angle
brackets and pivot bolts through the plastic. There is room under the seat
for a small fire bottle or other things. The front of the seat is kept from
racking sideways either by notching the wood support wedge or a couple of
protrusions just outside the center box. There are many ways to mount the
plastic seat pan (foam and fiberglass base being one. It is a cheap
prototype effort to get it the way you will like it. Seat prices are too
high to be unhappy with the result.
I have not painted or covered my seat pan yet (one of these days) The lawn
chair look suits me for now. However, I did throw in a 0.5" piece of pink
Confor foam covered by a piece of 0.75 pile Sheep skin, loose lay. This
would make for a nice finish cover. A piece of sheep skin would be nice on
the Chute back also.
Blue skies, you guys, I turned off my lights for those of you in CA.
Gary, Wet in Oregon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ghrhodes" <ghrhodes(at)midsouth.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Required Reading |
Clear DayI just read Peter Garrison's article in Feb Flying, go to this
website: www.seqair.com
click on flight testing link. Go to prefly inspection and flight
testing.
The info focuses on the Falco flight test process but it applies to all
homebuilts. The guide was written by Alfred Scott president of Sequoia
Aircraft, the flight related info in it comes from Al Aitken, md80 pilot
for American Airlines, Falco builder, and graduate of Navy test pilot
school at Pax River.
This is a heck of a resource.
Fly Safely, Howard Rhodes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Matronics Web Server Upgrade... |
B
Dear Listers,
I will be upgrading the Matronics Web Server this afternoon (1/21/01)
and will be taking it offline for a number of hours. I hope to have it
back online by this evening sometime, depending on how well the upgrade
goes.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/21/01 |
In a message dated 1/21/01 11:58:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rocket-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> From: CW9371(at)aol.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Check out Harmon Rocket LLC
>
>
> Wait a second here. Theres this big stink about Mark building the F1 and
> hes
> a rip off artist. But its ok for John to take a piece of copyrighted
> material and use it and change it. Thats my problem with it. Both these
> guys are good guys making good products. But people need to get off there
> high horse and stop trying to crucify the other guy.
> I mean yes I like Mark and Team rocket and I think there doing great. If i
> wanted to deal with vans and John and the money was more important to me
> then
> time I would have gone with the Harmon. I then would have bought from both
> of them.
> People who own these planes are suppose to be adults, but the more I see on
> this list and the RV list is that there spoiled children. WHo like to
> point
> fingers and say mine is bigger better faster then yours. I am probably the
> child on the list since I am 29 and bought my F1 rocket kit at 28. I know
> i
> have done the finger pointing in the past and I appoligize for it. But
> these
> aircraft are close enough competitors that the main difference is the QB
> kit
> for most people. Yes there are many other difference. Wings, skin
> thickness, landing gear, slider vs flip, nose weight, etc etc etc etc.
> They
> do add up, but for most people it comes down to the QB. If thats the not
> the
> question then it comes down to who you like the most John or Mark. After
> that its the kit themselves. But regardless these are both fine aircraft.
>
> I mean that article proves it. The article details a harmon rocket which
> happens to have been build by Mark and owned by him.
> I guess I am going on and on and its getting a little wordy here, but i
> just
> got home from going out. Hey I am a kid. But anyways this a small market
> of
> specialized planes and we should all be able to get along. If you can't
> well
> I have some words for you that I won't use on this list.
>
> Chris Wilcox
> F1 rocket kit YF-000
>
>
>
How do you think Van came up with the design of the RV-3 / RV-4?
I will give you a hint..he took a Flybaby and redesigned it..he did not copy
it or call it F1-Flybaby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Petri" <dpetri(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/21/01 |
----- Original Message -----
From: <MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 12:18 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/21/01
How do you think Van came up with the design of the RV-3 / RV-4?
I will give you a hint..he took a Flybaby and redesigned it..he did not copy
it or call it F1-Flybaby
Actually, I thought it was Ray Stitts' Playboy that Van modified into the
RV-3....
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Williams <7ecapilot(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/21/01 |
To pick another nit...
Van modified his Playboy with cantilever wings and a new engine to make it
the RV-1.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com>
>To:
>Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 12:18 PM
>Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/21/01
>
>
>How do you think Van came up with the design of the RV-3 / RV-4?
>I will give you a hint..he took a Flybaby and redesigned it..he did not copy
>it or call it F1-Flybaby
>
>Actually, I thought it was Ray Stitts' Playboy that Van modified into the
>RV-3....
>Dave
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcbraem(at)home.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/21/01 |
from Van's Intro Pack:
"The first homebuilt was a rather sad performing 65 hp Stits playboy
which Van flew for a year and then sold. During that time, he purchased
another Playboy airframe and rebuilt it, installing a 125 hp Lycoming
engine, bubble canopy and Hoerner-style wingtips (not the shoes, ed.).
This flew much better, but still had a high landing speed, high sink
rate and only modest cruise speed...he designed and built a set of
cantilever aluminum wings to replace the the srut-braced wood and fabric
originals. Renamed the RV-1, the Playboy flew like a new airplane. The
wings were equipped with flaps to provide the short landing performance
required for operation from the short farm strip. It was jokingly said
said that the only reason "that cheap Dutchman" rebuilt the Playboy was
to be able to keep it at home and avoid hangar rent...From 1965 - 1968
Van flew the RV-1 550 hrs...but he was aware that it was a hybrid and
felt something better was possible. He sold the airplane (it is still
flying) and designed and constructed the the RV-3 (basically, an all
aluminum RV-1/Playboy). It flew for the first time in 8/71."
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 12:18 PM
> Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/21/01
>
> How do you think Van came up with the design of the RV-3 / RV-4?
> I will give you a hint..he took a Flybaby and redesigned it..he did not copy
> it or call it F1-Flybaby
>
> Actually, I thought it was Ray Stitts' Playboy that Van modified into the
> RV-3....
> Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Reiff" <Reiff(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | RV-4 kit for sale |
I'm selling my RV-4 kit and getting an RV-8. It is completed to about
the same degree as a quickbuild. I'm in SE Wisconsin.
Email me off list for details.
Bob Reiff
Reiff Preheat Systems
www.execpc.com/reiff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/21/01 |
My bad..your right, I must have F1 Flybaby on the brain.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wes Triff" <tekrep(at)wans.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Rocket-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/22/01 |
Over the last year or so (more so recently), this list has really gone into
the dumper. It sure would be nice if many of you held to the original
purpose of these lists- to exchange technical information in a PRODUCTIVE
manner. If you can't do that, why don't you just email each other directly
and take your petty squabbles out of this forum. If I were Matt, I'd pull
the plug on this list until quite a few of you matured. As for me, I am a
builder who is sitting on the sidelines with $30K worth of aluminum waiting
on a free minute, which my new schedule does not allow me. I monitor the
lists for technical input, which I will use when I am able to build again
(or even start). Right now, this thing is so full of trash I will
un-subscribe, so flame me in my absence, it's all some of you seem capable
of; I don't really care. If this list ever gets back on track, someone email
me at home.
My kit decision was purely based on the fact that I didn't, and now don't,
have the time to spend on a slow-build kit.
C-ya,
Wes Triff
F1 #14, still as you saw it at Sn'F 1999.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)execulink.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Rocket-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/22/01 |
Wes
Do not leave the list, I have a feeling that these threads you are speaking
of will soon fade away. One of the ways to make the list productive for
yourself is to ask questions. This will stimulate productive thoughts and
ideas.
Tom Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Wes Triff
Sent: January 23, 2001 7:27 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/22/01
Over the last year or so (more so recently), this list has really gone into
the dumper. It sure would be nice if many of you held to the original
purpose of these lists- to exchange technical information in a PRODUCTIVE
manner. If you can't do that, why don't you just email each other directly
and take your petty squabbles out of this forum. If I were Matt, I'd pull
the plug on this list until quite a few of you matured. As for me, I am a
builder who is sitting on the sidelines with $30K worth of aluminum waiting
on a free minute, which my new schedule does not allow me. I monitor the
lists for technical input, which I will use when I am able to build again
(or even start). Right now, this thing is so full of trash I will
un-subscribe, so flame me in my absence, it's all some of you seem capable
of; I don't really care. If this list ever gets back on track, someone email
me at home.
My kit decision was purely based on the fact that I didn't, and now don't,
have the time to spend on a slow-build kit.
C-ya,
Wes Triff
F1 #14, still as you saw it at Sn'F 1999.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/22/01 |
In a message dated 1/23/01 4:26:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, tekrep(at)wans.net
writes:
>
>
>
Ah Wes quit your snibling, if you have a that much money invested why are you
wasting your time on the computer? you should be out in your shop building.
PS When you come back to the "Rocket List" bring back a little humor. C-ya
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/22/01 |
Wes,
since your building the F1 there is a list solely for the f1 that a builder
set up that is just about purely technical building issues, ask mark for the
email address. I dont have it off hand since i suffered a complete computer
crash last week
chris wilcox
f1 rocket kit 000
In a message dated 1/23/2001 6:38:48 PM Central Standard Time,
fairlea(at)execulink.com writes:
<< From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Wes Triff
Sent: January 23, 2001 7:27 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Rocket-List: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/22/01
Over the last year or so (more so recently), this list has really gone into
the dumper. It sure would be nice if many of you held to the original
purpose of these lists- to exchange technical information in a PRODUCTIVE
manner. If you can't do that, why don't you just email each other directly
and take your petty squabbles out of this forum. If I were Matt, I'd pull
the plug on this list until quite a few of you matured. As for me, I am a
builder who is sitting on the sidelines with $30K worth of aluminum waiting
on a free minute, which my new schedule does not allow me. I monitor the
lists for technical input, which I will use when I am able to build again
(or even start). Right now, this thing is so full of trash I will
un-subscribe, so flame me in my absence, it's all some of you seem capable
of; I don't really care. If this list ever gets back on track, someone email
me at home.
My kit decision was purely based on the fact that I didn't, and now don't,
have the time to spend on a slow-build kit.
C-ya,
Wes Triff
F1 #14, still as you saw it at Sn'F 1999.
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jones15183(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Rocket-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/22/01 |
I completely agree with you Wes. Nothing but trash on this list anymore.
Really a waste of time time to wait for the lizst to come up and get nothing
but trashy comments........... GOODBY .Billy Waters F-1 # 026
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)execulink.com> |
I should have thought of this on the first two planes and I am sure that
others have but here it goes. When fitting the tips to the wings it is
difficult to hold and position them at the right location while at the same
time holding them snug up to the leading edge.
While struggling with this awkward shaped thing I happened to glance over
and see one of my truck tie down straps. The kind with the ratchet. Place
the strap around the leading edge of the wing, inboard a couple of inches
and then the back of it looped around the trailing edge of the wing tip and
tighten it up! an added advantage is that it will stay by itself and you
can raise and lower the trailing edge until it lines up with the flaps and
ailerons.
Probably every one else has figured this out for themselves but if not
enjoy.
Tom Martin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wing tip tip! |
Tom,
Which tips are you using and are you mounting landing/taxi lights in the
tips?
Russ
HRII, Maui
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Attn: F1 Sniblers |
When you look at all the e-mails Archived and sent on the Rocket list the
only people that seem to have a bitch is you F1 guys...lighten up...don't
take all you read so personaly. Maybe this will help, when you see an e-mail
that offends you like this one mouse over to the DELETE Botton and press once.
Happy flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian <brodg(at)texas.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Attn: F1 Sniblers |
Yes, unsigned "meangreen", you are certainly contributing much more to the problem
than any sort of solution.
I agree much more with Wes, et.al. (sorry to disagree, Tom).
Enjoy harassing everyone else until you are the last one on the list. Guess
that'll make you 'king'.......
Brian
F1 #28 and damn proud of it
Archive !
MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> When you look at all the e-mails Archived and sent on the Rocket list the
> only people that seem to have a bitch is you F1 guys...lighten up...don't
> take all you read so personaly. Maybe this will help, when you see an e-mail
> that offends you like this one mouse over to the DELETE Botton and press once.
> Happy flying
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Technical F1 Info |
When you look at all the e-mails Archived and sent on the Rocket listthe
only trash that litters the Rocket List is the "team snibling" of a few of
you F1 guys...lighten up...don't take all you read so personaly. no one cares
how old you are when you bought your kit or how much you have invested in it.
Maybe this will help, when you see an e-mail that offends you like this one
mouse over to the DELETE Button and press once.
Happy flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Technical F1 Info |
In a message dated 1/24/2001 9:48:33 PM Central Standard Time,
MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com writes:
<< When you look at all the e-mails Archived and sent on the Rocket listthe
only trash that litters the Rocket List is the "team snibling" of a few of
you F1 guys...lighten up...don't take all you read so personaly. no one care s
how old you are when you bought your kit or how much you have invested in it .
Maybe this will help, when you see an e-mail that offends you like this one
mouse over to the DELETE Button and press once.
Happy flying
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Attn: F1 Sniblers |
In a message dated 1/24/01 7:37:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, brodg(at)texas.net
writes:
>
> Yes, unsigned "meangreen", you are certainly contributing much more to the
> problem
> than any sort of solution.
> I agree much more with Wes, et.al. (sorry to disagree, Tom).
>
> Enjoy harassing everyone else until you are the last one on the list. Guess
> that'll make you 'king'.......
>
> Brian
> F1 #28 and damn proud of it
>
>
See your snibling again, the problem stems from people like you Brian, I am
not the king, and my attentions are not to harase anyone, and I am sure I
won't be the last on the list and I don't care how proud you are of your F1 #
28 kit, what I am saying is it does not matter if you building or flying a
F1, HRll or a KitFox, just to get there is an accomplishment. Have fun at it..
Signed Tim,
Meangreens Pilot
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)execulink.com> |
For any of you guys you have mounted the forward facing injector on the
HRII what are your cable lengths. I need to order my cables and would be
interested in suppliers as well.
Tom Martin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com |
> I should read what I am getting into before I get involved, you see I
> thought that this was the HRll "Rocket" list ie the real Rocket list but
> when I actually read the following ...
>
> >> The Rocket-List is an Internet Email Group with over 200 members
>> dedicated to the support of building and flying the F1 Rocket series of
>>
>
I realized that I must have intruded on the F1 exclusive personal list, no
wonder a select few of you got so pissed (although that was not my
attentions). I guess this is what happens when somebody goes out and copies
somebody's design, products and name. Several builders said they did not have
the time to build a "slow build kit" and for that reason they went with the
F1 QB kit. The question I have is with all the qualified builders in the
United States, what's the attraction to a kit built in another
country...Airframes are easy, its all the other stuff you have to do that
takes time and money, to each his own I guess. Calling the F1 a F1 is a cool
name but calling a F1 a Rocket (name already taken) takes away all the glory
of the F1 QB kit. Maybe Matt can start a Harmon Rocket ll list so you F1 guys
can talk only F1 stuff.
Happy Building
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: My Apoligies |
In a message dated 1/26/2001 2:41:33 PM Central Standard Time,
MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com writes:
<< I realized that I must have intruded on the F1 exclusive personal list, no
wonder a select few of you got so pissed (although that was not my
attentions). I guess this is what happens when somebody goes out and copies
somebody's design, products and name. Several builders said they did not
have
the time to build a "slow build kit" and for that reason they went with the
F1 QB kit. The question I have is with all the qualified builders in the
United States, what's the attraction to a kit built in another
country...Airframes are easy, its all the other stuff you have to do that
takes time and money, to each his own I guess. Calling the F1 a F1 is a cool
name but calling a F1 a Rocket (name already taken) takes away all the glory
of the F1 QB kit. Maybe Matt can start a Harmon Rocket ll list so you F1
guys
can talk only F1 stuff.
Happy Building >>
Time to appologize again. The f1 is not a direct copy of the Harmon. Just
like the Harmon is not a direct copy of the RV 4. Kind of like the RV series
is not a direct copy of whatever that aircraft was that van used as the basis
for his design. In regards to the name there are a ton of aircraft with the
name rocket in them. Certified and experimental.
Airframes are easy. The difference between a qb F1 and a Harmon slowbuild is
no big deal. What the heck are you smoking. I think 1000 hours of labor is
a big deal. I think most people agree. US builders should be a kit that is
fabricated in another country. My f1 should be build in 1000 hours to finish
the airframe. Another 1000 to finish avionics engine etc etc. I dont see
how that is so much more time consuming. Well I don't know where you live,
but there is a whole wide world out there and its a world economy. I bet
that the clothes you wear the car you drive and everything you own. Some
part of it came from outside the USA.
In regards to the Harmon rocket list i am sure matt will start one if John
harmon makes a nice crontribution like team rocket did. Also the list is for
both aircraft. Since mark helps out a lot of harmon rocket builders free of
charge and he also sells some nice stuff for the harmon.
But then again its people like you that don't get it. Both aircraft are
great. It all depends on who you want to work with. Mark bent over
backwards for me when I talked to him about a kit. John was indifferent.
THis was before the F1 even and Mark spend more time talking the Harmon verus
the RV8 then john did. Mark sold me on the harmon john didnt, but do to some
finacial reasons I waited a year and by then Mark was building kits so i went
with him.
Chris WIlcox
PS sorry to all the people who are sick of this
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Firewall question (HRII) |
Rocketeers,
Working on the firewall and haave a question for those who have gone before.
I have the firewall clecoed together on the bench, and my forward facing
stainless flanges are trimmed to a beautiful consistent line. That line
makes the flange about 3/4 inch. Vans calls out 5/8 for the flange
dimension, but that would require trimming another 1/8 all the way around
the firewall (major pain). Normally extra meat on a flange isn't a problem,
but here it might be important, as it is where the cowl is attached. Can
the hinge location be adjusted such that the flange can be left at 3/4 or do
I need to work the flange down to 5/8?
Aloha,
Russ Werner
Maui
HRII
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 1/27/01 1:58:39 AM Central Standard Time,
rocket-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
<< Working on the firewall and haave a question for those who have gone
before.
I have the firewall clecoed together on the bench, and my forward facing
stainless flanges are trimmed to a beautiful consistent line. That line
makes the flange about 3/4 inch. Vans calls out 5/8 for the flange
dimension, but that would require trimming another 1/8 all the way around
the firewall (major pain). Normally extra meat on a flange isn't a problem,
but here it might be important, as it is where the cowl is attached. Can
the hinge location be adjusted such that the flange can be left at 3/4 or do
I need to work the flange down to 5/8?
Aloha,
Russ Werner
Maui
HRII >>
Hi Russ:
Heck, leave it as is before you cut your fingers off! Personally, I wouldn't
use the hinge -- the stress at the bottom corners at 275 MPH has got to be
more than that $3 hinge will take! Even my RV-4 had problems there.
I send strips of 040 mat'l with the F1 kits to be used as a cowl attach
flange, along with narrower strips of 040 material to be used as shims to
move the attach flange back from the skin, and give a smooth profile to the
cowl/skin joint. You may have to add some layers of 'glass to the aft edge of
the cowl to get this smooth profile, but in light of the ship's VNE, that
re-inforcement would be in the 'good thing' category.
We use c/s #8 screws along the aft edge of the cowl at roughly 4" sp, but 1/4
turn fasteners will also work. Caveat: the 1/4 turn fasteners are a pain if
used behind the spinner and at the outer corners of the cowl -- they don't
actually come al the way out when released, you recall, and they get in the
way when you are trying to re-install the upper cowl. Use screws here.
The hinge method at the upper/lower cowl attach seems to work fine. You can
combine the P4/P3 hinge sizes to offset the hinge line slightly above the
parting line -- this hides the hinge eyes and gives a smoother look to the
part line. Use soft rivets (AN426A3-5) when riveting the hinge to the cowl,
and also some JB weld to attach the hinge to the inner sfc of the cowl. Yep
-- JB weld! Don't let the JB weld get into the hinge eyes -- scrape it out
while it's still soft.
Cheers
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)execulink.com> |
| Subject: | Firewall question (HRII) |
Russ
Leave the flange at 3/4", this will give you some room to aline your hinges
in and out later when you get to the cowl stage.
Tom Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Russ Werner
Sent: January 26, 2001 9:15 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: Firewall question (HRII)
Rocketeers,
Working on the firewall and haave a question for those who have gone before.
I have the firewall clecoed together on the bench, and my forward facing
stainless flanges are trimmed to a beautiful consistent line. That line
makes the flange about 3/4 inch. Vans calls out 5/8 for the flange
dimension, but that would require trimming another 1/8 all the way around
the firewall (major pain). Normally extra meat on a flange isn't a problem,
but here it might be important, as it is where the cowl is attached. Can
the hinge location be adjusted such that the flange can be left at 3/4 or do
I need to work the flange down to 5/8?
Aloha,
Russ Werner
Maui
HRII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lui <signco(at)flash.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MeangreenRV4 Msgs |
> Mr Mean green,
I think you are in the wrong list. You are not contributing to the building
process. This a list for people trying to share ideas about building.
Please don't fill the list with your ......
Also, make sure you check your airplane to ensure there are no Superior or ECI
parts, as those are Lycoming/Continental copies! hee, hee, hee. The list could
be
longer but I'll leave it here since there is not building benefit to the List.
Luis
PS. You forgot to sign you previous emails. Here, I'll sign it for you, so everyone
knows who you are:
TIMOTHY JOE BARNES
929 Day Ave
Bakersfield, CA 93308-1401
Flys a pusy slow RV-4 N39TB, and worries some airplanes are going to kick his fanny
without any mercy!
> From: MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com
> Subject: Rocket-List: My Apoligies
>
>
> > I should read what I am getting into before I get involved, you see I
> > thought that this was the HRll "Rocket" list ie the real Rocket list but
> > when I actually read the following ...
> >
> > >> The Rocket-List is an Internet Email Group with over 200 members
> >> dedicated to the support of building and flying the F1 Rocket series of
> >>
> >
> I realized that I must have intruded on the F1 exclusive personal list, no
> wonder a select few of you got so pissed (although that was not my
> attentions). I guess this is what happens when somebody goes out and copies
> somebody's design, products and name. Several builders said they did not have
> the time to build a "slow build kit" and for that reason they went with the
> F1 QB kit. The question I have is with all the qualified builders in the
> United States, what's the attraction to a kit built in another
> country...Airframes are easy, its all the other stuff you have to do that
> takes time and money, to each his own I guess. Calling the F1 a F1 is a cool
> name but calling a F1 a Rocket (name already taken) takes away all the glory
> of the F1 QB kit. Maybe Matt can start a Harmon Rocket ll list so you F1 guys
> can talk only F1 stuff.
>
> Happy Building
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MeangreenRV4 Msgs |
| From: | CAPTAIN KAOS <kaos(at)captainkaos.com> |
On 28/1/01 3:15 AM, "lui" wrote:
>
>> Mr Mean green,
>
> I think you are in the wrong list. You are not contributing to the building
> process. This a list for people trying to share ideas about building.
> Please don't fill the list with your ......
> Also, make sure you check your airplane to ensure there are no Superior or ECI
> parts, as those are Lycoming/Continental copies! hee, hee, hee. The list
> could be
> longer but I'll leave it here since there is not building benefit to the List.
>
> Luis
>
> PS. You forgot to sign you previous emails. Here, I'll sign it for you, so
> everyone
> knows who you are:
>
> TIMOTHY JOE BARNES
> 929 Day Ave
> Bakersfield, CA 93308-1401
> Flys a pusy slow RV-4 N39TB, and worries some airplanes are going to kick his
> fanny
> without any mercy!
Go lui
Boo yar
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Carter" <ronc(at)metropolis.slc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall question (HRII) |
Russ-
Keep the 3/4 in dim. By the time you add the additional strips to reinforce
the flange for plate nuts or a hinge you'll be glad you did. Plus if you use
Johns cowling alignment fixture that aligns the cowl with the spinner you
might end up trimming off the TE of the cowl any way. By the way keep the
cowl located as far forward as possible, or trim as little off as possible-
this will increase header clearance with the cowl at the first cylinder on
the right side of the engine( I believe this is cyl # 1 and is the farthest
forward). Mine is very tight and requires the use of a heat shield blanket
type material on the interior of the cowl.
Ron Carter
HRII #149
140+ TTAF, so far.
801-298-0406
----- Original Message -----
From: Russ Werner <russ(at)maui.net>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 7:15 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: Firewall question (HRII)
>
> Rocketeers,
>
> Working on the firewall and haave a question for those who have gone
before.
>
> I have the firewall clecoed together on the bench, and my forward facing
> stainless flanges are trimmed to a beautiful consistent line. That line
> makes the flange about 3/4 inch. Vans calls out 5/8 for the flange
> dimension, but that would require trimming another 1/8 all the way around
> the firewall (major pain). Normally extra meat on a flange isn't a
problem,
> but here it might be important, as it is where the cowl is attached. Can
> the hinge location be adjusted such that the flange can be left at 3/4 or
do
> I need to work the flange down to 5/8?
>
> Aloha,
>
> Russ Werner
> Maui
> HRII
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Meangreen's Last Post |
We all had a good laugh but it's time for me to stop stirring the pot or
setting bear traps. I never posted any list under the pretense of being some
kind of "phantom" posting in secret. If I didn't want to be known I could
have used a name like Captin Kaos or maybe have used my work computer email
address like signco(at)flash.net.
The only valid point to the response of my post was that (and I quote)
"You are not contributing to the building process" for that I apologize to
the serious rocket builders out there, (no disrespect meant) but to the few
select, I was just messin with you.
For the record and my Last Post, Luis & Captin Kaos my name is:
TIM BARNES
929 Day Ave
Bakersfield, CA 93308
(661) 393-4100
MeanGreen is the name of my RV-4, it has not flown yet but will soon, I don't
know how fast "pusy slow" is so I can't respond to that one and to the best
of my knowlage there are no Superior or ECI parts in my motor. I do not know
what
Go lui Boo yar means, but it sounds like your into some kind of VOODOO or
something.
Signed: Your Friend
Tim Barnes
N39TB
PS: Go lui Boo yar to ya too!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman Hunger" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
| Subject: | External Power Receptical- RV6A |
Does any one see any problems with mounting a Piper style external power
receptacle in the bottom of the cowl over to one side?
I'm looking for a spot where the wire run will be short which rules out
inside the cabin. The backside (of the receptacle) is too big, I feel the
closest spot to put it inside would be behind F604.
BTY, this thing is heavy! Probably not for those trying to build a light,
simple aerobatic ship.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MeangreenRV4(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: External Power Receptical- RV6A |
In a message dated 1/30/01 9:19:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nhunger(at)sprint.ca writes:
>
> Does any one see any problems with mounting a Piper style external power
> receptacle in the bottom of the cowl over to one side?
>
> I'm looking for a spot where the wire run will be short which rules out
> inside the cabin. The backside (of the receptacle) is too big, I feel the
> closest spot to put it inside would be behind F604.
>
> BTY, this thing is heavy! Probably not for those trying to build a light,
> simple aerobatic ship.
>
> Norman Hunger
> RV6A Delta BC
>
>
>
Norman, this is something I saw that was trick..this guy went to a welding
supply store and purchased both the male and female recepticals from a small
arc welding machine. The female recepticals are bulkhead type mount and are
small with red & black color rings. They can be mounted anywhere because of
there size, the male recepticals are stored in the plane and if he ever
needed a jump start he just inserts the male recepticals then attaches
standard jumper cables, it works great..
Tim Barnes
N39TB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)execulink.com> |
| Subject: | External Power Receptical- RV6A |
Norm
Check the areo connection web site, he had a description of an external
power supply system. http://www.aeroelectric.com/
Tom Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Norman
Hunger
Sent: January 30, 2001 12:16 PM
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Rocket-List: External Power Receptical- RV6A
Does any one see any problems with mounting a Piper style external power
receptacle in the bottom of the cowl over to one side?
I'm looking for a spot where the wire run will be short which rules out
inside the cabin. The backside (of the receptacle) is too big, I feel the
closest spot to put it inside would be behind F604.
BTY, this thing is heavy! Probably not for those trying to build a light,
simple aerobatic ship.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Deffner" <deffner(at)glade.net> |
| Subject: | Re: External Power Receptical- RV6A |
I have a male and female fixture, that I have decided not to use, that I
would sell if someone needs one. Good to have one, but decided not to try
and find a spot for it in the F1 Rocket. Naturally there will come a time
that I will be struggling with my head down and butt up, wondering why I
didn't install it. David
----- Original Message -----
From: Norman Hunger <nhunger(at)sprint.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 11:16 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: External Power Receptical- RV6A
>
> Does any one see any problems with mounting a Piper style external power
> receptacle in the bottom of the cowl over to one side?
>
> I'm looking for a spot where the wire run will be short which rules out
> inside the cabin. The backside (of the receptacle) is too big, I feel the
> closest spot to put it inside would be behind F604.
>
> BTY, this thing is heavy! Probably not for those trying to build a light,
> simple aerobatic ship.
>
> Norman Hunger
> RV6A Delta BC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Flap torque tube |
Just once more guys.... I found my rear stick to close to the torque tube so
I just mounted my torque tube 3/8 in. higher and had lotza room for the 20
degree forward stick recommendation.. That must be just a recommendation
because I cant ever think of a time when one should need full forward stick
movement in a Rocket..
Well maybe if you had full tanks and a 300 pounder in the rear seat, but then
he may not fit either..
Good Luck Larry F1#001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hr2pilot(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Flap torque tube |
Outside snaps and inside out vertical 8's from the bottom, they are lots of
fun.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Flap torque tube |
Yeh John, guess I forgot about those maneuvers.. Sounds like a headache to
me..
But if I do get crazy I will use my kids Stadacher for that..
Good Luck... Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SignCo" <signco(at)flash.net> |
UUUyyyy, I imagine a ride with John will put you in your seat! Or maybe
shake you around a bit.
Sounds like fun John. You really know the definition of fun.
Luis
---------------
> From: Hr2pilot(at)aol.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Flap torque tube
>
>
> Outside snaps and inside out vertical 8's from the bottom, they are lots
of
> fun.
> John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nelson James Maj P42/Site 2-QA <James.Nelson(at)edwards.af.mil> |
| Subject: | RE: Flap torque tube |
Watch the clearance to the floor/torque tube, particularly the front seat
floor area. As for full forward stick, you are correct you would not
normally be needing full forward stick, but you might need it to get out of
an inadvertent spin with that 300LB dude in the back seat.
Greg Nelson
-----Original Message-----
From: LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com [mailto:LKDAUDT2(at)aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:24 PM
Subject: Flap torque tube
Just once more guys.... I found my rear stick to close to the torque tube so
I just mounted my torque tube 3/8 in. higher and had lotza room for the 20
degree forward stick recommendation.. That must be just a recommendation
because I cant ever think of a time when one should need full forward stick
movement in a Rocket..
Well maybe if you had full tanks and a 300 pounder in the rear seat, but
then
he may not fit either..
Good Luck Larry F1#001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: virus attack |
>
> I got that too but I think in my case it had come as spam from some user
> hacking into Road Runner accounts. I hate it when that happens. Attention
> everyone get a good Virus checker and use it.
>
> Mick G
>
>
Hi Mick,
I also have Road Runner and have been getting the hahaha virus several
times a week. My understanding though is that it uses the infected
computer's e mail address list, so anyone who has your e mail or this list's
e mail address can provide the vector for the virus.
Ed Anderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Martin" <fairlea(at)execulink.com> |
Listers
I asked this question a couple of years ago and was not satisfied with
the
responses at that time... We have various methods of getting air into our
cockpits, engine plenum, under wing, naca vents, etc, but seldom is much
thought given to how all that air exits the cockpit.
I suspect most of it squirts out around the tail and some throught he canopy
and wing roots, but would it not be better to have it flow smoothly out in
the best location? Kent Pacer touched on this issue in his speed mod book
but I have never seen an RV or rocket that has addressed this problem. If
we can get the air to go out smoother then less effort will be required to
introduce the air.
I ask this now as I am doing my tail faring. There is a nice little gap
under the rear horizontal stablizer and I wonder if some vents in this area
would be appropriate, any ideas?
Tom Martin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Deffner" <deffner(at)glade.net> |
Last year a fellow on the RV list commented on the difficulty of getting air
and heat into the cabin. His solution was, I believe a 2 inch hole in the
aft baggage area. He lived up north and said it worked great in summer and
winter.
David working on a Tx Rocket
Do not archieve
August 05, 2000 - February 05, 2001
Rocket-Archive.digest.vol-ae