Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-ak

May 31, 1998 - June 29, 1998



      >is appended to each posted messaage.  I run it on all incoming posts to
      >strip it out when people reply and don't bother to remove it from the
      >quoted text.  
      
      He has written more sophisticated code, so now the character set I used in
      the drawing should remain intact. 
      One more try for the throttle arm drawing:
      
         ===|=============       
         ------|
      
      Peter Chapman
      Toronto, ON
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 1998
From: Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com>
Subject: Re: carb temp sensor
>high pressure Facets on a Holley Weber carb), I have carb heat, but my probe under the carb >indicates that icing is extremely unlikely, 3 blade 66" Warp Drive, taper blades. I think What kind of carb temp probe do you have, and how/where is it installed? I'll want to try to measure carb temp on a Rotax 912, but am not sure how best to set up a home made system. Ideally one wants a sensor right where the air is cooled in the carb inlet, but I'm wary of letting the engine swallow the sensor! I vaguely understand that some commercial carb temp systems measure the temperature before the air goes into the carb, while the most common ones have a sensor threaded right into the carb, to measure temp down in the throat. So the acceptable temp range on the dial will differ depending on the sensor location. The actual sensor could be something from a Radio Shack style digital indoor/outdoor temperature gauge, or could be home made. Kitplanes once had an article by Jim Weir on thermocouple construction. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Administrator_at_GMH-CORE-0(at)ccgate.hac.com
Date: May 31, 1998
Subject: Message not deliverable
Have a look at Tony Bingelis books (Sportplane construction technique) and he has a good discussion of sheet metal techniques. My interpretation and from my engineering study days is that the distance is from the outside edge. The only problem being closer to the bend than the outide edge is with the bending radii. If you come too close to the radii as the rivet pulls down you may stress the radii and make it a tighter bend, this may cause it to crack. The Zenith manuals site a 3mm radii on the .025" material and after allowing say 1.5mm for the rivet it is probably unwise to go closer than 4.5mm to the inside edge of a flange. However a degree of common sense is needed, you need to look at where the stresses are on the components of the riveted surfaces. There are very few structural elements of the 601 that are in shear except along the elements major axis. It is a very well designed structure with most loads being caried by members in tension / compression and so most rivets are there to hold things in relation to each other along the axis of the element, so the 10mm end distance is frequently the one most likely to suffer from elongation due to shear stresses. I would be interested if anyone can find a structural member that is stressed on an axis orthoginal to its major axis without a brace to convert the load to a shear load on another axis. (the only ones I can see are the wing stiffeners) Sorry for rambling a bit but it may help to explain why the documentation says the 601 is forgiving so long as sensible (not perfect) construction techniques are used. regards -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, 1 June 1998 0:54 Subject: Zenith-List: Proper Edge Distance The following question has been nagging me for awhile, but quite frankly I've been afraid of the answer. How does the edge distance apply to the inside of the parts? For example, the minimum edge distance from the hole to the end of the rib flange is 2xd. What about going towards the other way (towards the rib's bend / center section)? I guess a better way of asking the question would be, how far off the rib's flange center line towards the rib center is okay? Thanks! Don Honabach Tempe, AZ (601HDS) http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Administrator_at_GMH-CORE-0(at)ccgate.hac.com
Date: May 31, 1998
Subject: Message not deliverable
Have a look at Tony Bingelis books (Sportplane construction technique) and he has a good discussion of sheet metal techniques. My interpretation and from my engineering study days is that the distance is from the outside edge. The only problem being closer to the bend than the outide edge is with the bending radii. If you come too close to the radii as the rivet pulls down you may stress the radii and make it a tighter bend, this may cause it to crack. The Zenith manuals site a 3mm radii on the .025" material and after allowing say 1.5mm for the rivet it is probably unwise to go closer than 4.5mm to the inside edge of a flange. However a degree of common sense is needed, you need to look at where the stresses are on the components of the riveted surfaces. There are very few structural elements of the 601 that are in shear except along the elements major axis. It is a very well designed structure with most loads being caried by members in tension / compression and so most rivets are there to hold things in relation to each other along the axis of the element, so the 10mm end distance is frequently the one most likely to suffer from elongation due to shear stresses. I would be interested if anyone can find a structural member that is stressed on an axis orthoginal to its major axis without a brace to convert the load to a shear load on another axis. (the only ones I can see are the wing stiffeners) Sorry for rambling a bit but it may help to explain why the documentation says the 601 is forgiving so long as sensible (not perfect) construction techniques are used. regards -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, 1 June 1998 0:54 Subject: Zenith-List: Proper Edge Distance The following question has been nagging me for awhile, but quite frankly I've been afraid of the answer. How does the edge distance apply to the inside of the parts? For example, the minimum edge distance from the hole to the end of the rib flange is 2xd. What about going towards the other way (towards the rib's bend / center section)? I guess a better way of asking the question would be, how far off the rib's flange center line towards the rib center is okay? Thanks! Don Honabach Tempe, AZ (601HDS) http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Administrator_at_GMH-CORE-0(at)ccgate.hac.com
Date: May 31, 1998
Subject: Message not deliverable
Have a look at Tony Bingelis books (Sportplane construction technique) and he has a good discussion of sheet metal techniques. My interpretation and from my engineering study days is that the distance is from the outside edge. The only problem being closer to the bend than the outide edge is with the bending radii. If you come too close to the radii as the rivet pulls down you may stress the radii and make it a tighter bend, this may cause it to crack. The Zenith manuals site a 3mm radii on the .025" material and after allowing say 1.5mm for the rivet it is probably unwise to go closer than 4.5mm to the inside edge of a flange. However a degree of common sense is needed, you need to look at where the stresses are on the components of the riveted surfaces. There are very few structural elements of the 601 that are in shear except along the elements major axis. It is a very well designed structure with most loads being caried by members in tension / compression and so most rivets are there to hold things in relation to each other along the axis of the element, so the 10mm end distance is frequently the one most likely to suffer from elongation due to shear stresses. I would be interested if anyone can find a structural member that is stressed on an axis orthoginal to its major axis without a brace to convert the load to a shear load on another axis. (the only ones I can see are the wing stiffeners) Sorry for rambling a bit but it may help to explain why the documentation says the 601 is forgiving so long as sensible (not perfect) construction techniques are used. regards -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, 1 June 1998 0:54 Subject: Zenith-List: Proper Edge Distance The following question has been nagging me for awhile, but quite frankly I've been afraid of the answer. How does the edge distance apply to the inside of the parts? For example, the minimum edge distance from the hole to the end of the rib flange is 2xd. What about going towards the other way (towards the rib's bend / center section)? I guess a better way of asking the question would be, how far off the rib's flange center line towards the rib center is okay? Thanks! Don Honabach Tempe, AZ (601HDS) http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)mail.jet2.net>
Subject: Re: carb temp sensor
Peter Chapman wrote: > What kind of carb temp probe do you have, and how/where is it installed? > I'll want to try to measure carb temp on a Rotax 912, but am not sure how > best to set up a home made system. Ideally one wants a sensor right where > the air is cooled in the carb inlet, but I'm wary of letting the engine > swallow the sensor! > > The actual sensor could be something from a Radio Shack style digital > indoor/outdoor temperature gauge, or could be home made. Kitplanes once had > an article by Jim Weir on thermocouple construction. Yup, a Radio shack Thermometer is what it is. The carb adapter is a solid aluminum block, so I drilled a hole in it, well, not quite through I left a bit of shoulder on the inside of the hole so the probe can't possibly slip inside the manifold. Just for good measure I Epoxied it in. works great! james neely ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Fuel consumption.
Date: Jun 01, 1998
> > James Neely wrote: > > 4000rpm cruise =3.2gph(imp) > > 3900rpm=2.7gph in 1 hour tests. A 2hour xc flight w/ a stopover yielded 2.75gph. I'm > > beginning to get what I feel are pretty consistent figures. It looks like I can count > > on a worst case scenario of 3gph, or 4hours before I start to sweat on any xc trip. > > James, thanks for the numbers. It's helpful to have some real data. Could you just remind > me which engine you're using. Thanks, > > Grant Corriveau 4000 rpm sounds like an awfully slow cruise, though I met someone with and electrically variable Ivor Prop and that is what he cruised at. Sound like he might be really lugging the motor. I still average 15 ltrs per hr whatever that converts to in Imp or US gal, with cruise at 5000 to 5100. A bit more with climbing over Alps at 8-9000ft. This means I have a range of 5hrs or 475 NM with the best part of 2 hrs reserve with wing tanks. This with 601 ULA and 912. If you take Rotax figures of fuel consumption per hp, this is about right. Bernie G ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 01, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)mail.jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel consumption.
Bernie Gunn wrote: > > Grant Corriveau > > 4000 rpm sounds like an awfully slow cruise, though I met someone with > and electrically variable Ivor Prop and that is what he cruised at. Sound > like he might be really lugging the motor. > I still average 15 ltrs per hr whatever that converts to in Imp or US > gal, with cruise at 5000 to 5100. A bit more with climbing over Alps at > 8-9000ft. This means I have a range of 5hrs or 475 NM with the best part of > 2 hrs reserve with wing tanks. This with 601 ULA and 912. If you take > Rotax figures of fuel consumption per hp, this is about right. > Bernie G Ah, but this is a Subaru EA81, not Rotax.....different animal all together. my torque curve peaks at about 3600rpm,(~125ft/lb, - NSI's figures), and falls off slowly from there. Max horses with this cam come in about 5400,(again, NSI figures), but the low ratio keeps be down under 5000, or about 90hp. I probably get about 80 of these on TO. The engine really does seem to like the 3900rpm. You can hear it "relax" as is drops below 4000rpm, (that's the only word I can come up with...sort of like when you are driving and your car has a speed at which it seems smoothest) As much as I like my powerplant, IMHO, the best engine for this bird is still the 912, and the votes aren't in yet on the Jabiru. I want to see a few in the air. Regards, James Neely ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: 601 Elevator
Looking at the elevator taking shape on my table (which I am scratch-building having made the wings from a kit) I am very tempted to start beefing-up the central section with extra channel, etc. It looks rather lightly built when you consider the torsional loads on that central 'box' to which the horns are connected. In addition I cannot achieve the approx 120 mm dimension required on the plans between the front of the elevator rib flange and the central channel without reducing the depth of the central channel - I get about 105mm max with parts made to drawing. Has anyone else added succumbed to the temptation to add strengthening (and extra wieght so far back)? I recall someone saying that they had moved up to A5 rivets for that area, but I am not sure that A5 is the best choice with such thin material. James Tannock Nottingham England ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: 601 Elevator
Date: Jun 01, 1998
James: I haven't heard of anyone beefing up the tail. Before doing so I really think a call to Chris Heintz is in order. I read an article in one of the airplane mags that discussed when people beef up one area (without significant redesign calculations) they change the distribution of forces on all other structural members and often create a new mode for structural failure (at even less G-loading than was originally designed for). In short they lose more than they gain. As for the 105 mm versus 120 mm issue; I built my tail years ago and can't remember a problem in this area. Tony Gunn, Houston, TX > -----Original Message----- > From: James Tannock [SMTP:James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk] > Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 7:11 AM > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Elevator > > > > Looking at the elevator taking shape on my table (which I am > scratch-building having made the wings from a kit) I am very tempted > to start beefing-up the central section with extra channel, etc. It > looks rather lightly built when you consider the torsional loads on > that central 'box' to which the horns are connected. > > In addition I cannot achieve the approx 120 mm dimension required > on the plans between the front of the elevator rib flange and the > central channel without reducing the depth of the central channel - > I get about 105mm max with parts made to drawing. > > Has anyone else added succumbed to the temptation to add > strengthening (and extra wieght so far back)? I recall someone > saying that they had moved up to A5 rivets for that area, but I am > not sure that A5 is the best choice with such thin material. > > James Tannock > Nottingham > England > > > 5.0.1458.49"> that discussed when people beef up one area (without significant redesign calculations) they change the distribution of forces on all other structural members and often create a new mode for structural failure (at even less G-loading than was originally designed issue; I built my tail years ago and can't remember a problem in this message posted by: "James Tannock" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: wabeattie(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: Re: details from a completed 601
I attached a choke cable to the rotating portion of a vent similar to this. I just push or pull to open or close. I haven't tried it open yet since I haven't been able to fly since winter. But the choke cable opened and closed the vent just fine from the pilot position. I mounted the handle behind the co-pilot seat so I can reach over with one hand to operate it. Wayne N601WB ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Zenith-List: details from a completed 601 Date: 5/29/98 10:12 PM CABIN VENTING One of the other Zodiacs had a simple sliding vent installed into the back wall of the turtledeck baggage compartment. Although difficult to reach, it can be left open all summer for better cabin flow-through ventilation. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON assisting with a 601 HDS project ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: Re: 601 Elevator
Both me and another builder in my area could not achieve the 120mm measurement either. Mine came in much closer to 105mm. When I checked with Nick he told me this was fine. I did beef up my elevator section a little by adding a second pience of aluminum on the inside of the skin that exactly fits in the rectangular area formed by the channel and the ribs. I did this on the top and bottom skin so there are two layers of material instead of just the one. The weight gain is minimal and I feel much better about it. After reading the (below) from T. Gunn I hope I haven't done anything to regret. I can't imagine this would harm anuthing though. >>I read an article in one of the airplane mags that discussed when people beef up one area (without significant redesign calculations) they change the distribution of forces on all other structural members and often create a new mode for structural failure (at even less G-loading than was originally designed for). In short they lose more than they gain.<< Steve HDS Tail section complete, starting wings! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 01, 1998
From: Greg Ferris <ferret(at)mxserver.forbin.com>
Subject: Re: 601 Elevator
I am right where you are James. I built the Elevator parts to the prints, and the control attachment brackets are too long. If I line up the fronts of the brackets with the cutout, they hang off the front of the elevator and interfere with the movement of the hinge. I sent an email to Zenith Thursday night to see if it would be ok to trim about 10mm off the nose of the brackets to make them fit correctly. I haven't heard back from them yet. Looking at the strength of the bracket versus what it is attached to, it appears this should be ok. I agree that the elevator doesn't appear to be the strongest assembly at the attachments, but I decided that the forces applied at the attachemtns are actually going to be fairly low, and with all the birds that have been flying, the design must be adequate. I can see your point though. Greg F. >In addition I cannot achieve the approx 120 mm dimension required >on the plans between the front of the elevator rib flange and the >central channel without reducing the depth of the central channel - >I get about 105mm max with parts made to drawing. >James Tannock >Nottingham >England ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Proper Edge Distance
Date: Jun 01, 1998
|Have a look at Tony Bingelis books (Sportplane construction technique) |and he has a good discussion of sheet metal techniques. My Took a look at his books and apparently he has a few on sheet metal / experimental construction. Do you have a particular one you recommend? Thanks, Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 701,1s
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Hello to all 701 buiiders. An ex Jumbo pilot friend has acquired a 701 and is having balance problems. Have not flown it myself yet, but seems is OK in normal flight but on slow approach has to have engine power on. If power cut, nose falls like a brick and has damaged (bent) front axle, which is too light for a safari tire. Possibly need more weight back aft though this might affect normal flight which seems quite well balanced. Short take-off is fine. Maybe without airflow from prop the upside-down tail-plane stalls. Anyone else had this problem? Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 01, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Repost drawing in "details from a completed 601"
Peter Chapman wrote: > > After one builder noted that he couldn't follow my diagram, I looked at what > had gotten posted. Somehow about 80% of the ASCII art I used in trying to > explain the CH 601 throttle modification has dissappeared in transmission. Peter, it seems that at Matronics, what begin with a "plus" is considered as " please agressively etc..." and discarded. I got the same problem when I tried to post the drawing of an electric flap indicator. Claude. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: Re: Rudder question
<< > >Does that mean I should wait until I am ready to mount the rudder to the > >fuse before drilling the holes in the spar for the upper bearing? >> > Everyone I've talked to so far has suggested waiting before installing the > rudder bearings. >> I would also suggest not riveting the lower bearing to the rudder until later. The plan shows two different bends to this part and my lower hinge did not fit properly as supplied. The angle is critical to make a smooth operating hinge. George Fetzer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 601 Elevator
Date: Jun 02, 1998
James Tannock says.. > Looking at the elevator taking shape on my table (which I am > scratch-building having made the wings from a kit) I am very tempted > to start beefing-up the central section with extra channel, etc. It > looks rather lightly built when you consider the torsional loads on > that central 'box' to which the horns are connected. > Has anyone else added succumbed to the temptation to add I also thought it looked a bit light and added some .030 2024 stifening internally, under the el horns. It is curious how we believe our intinctive feelings above mere design and calculation! In my case, if it looks weak no amount of calculation of stresses and shear strengths is really convincing. However, for the sake of the odd oz why not be happy? In bad turbulence I often feel happy with the thought of my beefed up rear wing splices! Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WmSH(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: Rudder question
I really hate to ask this question because I made a stupid mistake right out of the chute on my rudder kit. Step 2 of the rudder manual directs you to snip off the bottom corner of the side flange of the doubler to the same angle as the rear rib #1. Well I did the first one precisely opposite direction from the plans. Will end up with a diamond shape at the end if I try to salvage it and cut in the proper direction, with about 3mm of metal missing between the side flange and the inside flange. Don't know it that makes sense without a picture, but if anyone can help would like to know if I should order another doubler angle or can the salvaged one be used? One more question, the way I read a previous post about the upper bearing installation, should wait and drill the holes after fuse is complete. Are the rivet holes for the upper bearing the only rivet holes that go between the 340mm to 430mm intersections? Thanks in advance for your help Bill Hickman (just started rudder) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nathan Schiff" <NatRus(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Elevator Trim Actuator
Date: Jun 01, 1998
How are 601HDS builders attaching the MAC S4 Actuator to the upper elevator skin? Rivets A4 or A5? Or other? If other what and where acquired? Nate Schiff -- NatRus(at)worldnet.att.net Charleston, South Carolina N271ES -- CH601HDS Rudder and stabilizer complete, working on elevator. attaching the arleston, complete, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 01, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator Trim Actuator
> >How are 601HDS builders attaching the MAC S4 Actuator to the upper >elevator skin? Rivets A4 or A5? Or other? If other what and where >acquired? Nate, Per the instructions I received, I mounted one of the Mac S4's in the right aileron with A4's. I did however use a washer over each hole in the servo to spread the pull of the rivet over a larger area instead of concentrating all of the pull "into" the hole of the servo. Worked just fine. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator Trim Actuator
Date: Jun 01, 1998
|How are 601HDS builders attaching the MAC S4 Actuator to the upper |elevator skin? Rivets A4 or A5? Or other? If other what and where |acquired? I used 4 - A4 rivets per suggestion by ZAC. Installed without any problems, and the rivets fit the pre-drilled holes on the actuator well. As a side note, one of local builders in our area used some type of screw/bolt combo to allow for easy removal/replacement. Was going to do the same, but as this project has progressed, my de-riveting skills have become quite good (urrg!) and riveting was easier. Don Honabach 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Airelon Trim Servos.
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Getting ready to start on the 601HDS outboard wings and was curious about whether anybody has been installing airelon trim servos. Seems like a great idea, but wasn't sure if it was needed, etc. If using, where did you purchased (ZAC, mail order, etc.)? Any installation tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Don Honabach ________________________________________________________________________________
From: COArgonaut(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: Re: Another corrosion protection product
Alodine is a chemical conversion coating. Sort of like the poor man's anodic coating. Alodine solution reacts with, and forms a thin coating on aluminum. Application is a two step operation. A cleaner is applied to the surface (usually an alkaline based), then rinsed off. The Alodine coating is applied next. The solution reacts to form a thin layer (,0001 inches thick). This coating makes a pretty good base for primers. Alodine is commonly used for repairs to anodic coatings, as it can be swabed on, and does not require the electrolytic bath for an anodic coating. It is better than not having it, but probably over-kill for most usages. Ed the Lurker. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Redfaydds(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: Control cable window
Hello Group, Has anyone placed a door in the underside of the fuselage in order to access the rudder control cables for tension adjustment? Thanks, Fred Schill Columbus, Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cliffsuss(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim Servo
Don, Asked Nicholas at SnF about the need for the right aileron trim servo, as seen on the Mexico "Red Bird". His response was that it was probably overkill, and it would be just as simple to add a small tab of sheet metal to the aileron and bent as required, after you get your Zodiac in the air and see how it's initial response is. Cliff Martin 601HDS #6-3694 Richmond,Virginia ________________________________________________________________________________
From: aztc-02(at)postoffice.syspac.com
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: taking over ch601 project
Has anyone taken over another builder's CH 601 HD kit? I'm taking over one that's 60% done. Any info would help. Thanks, Mike Landgraf 602.678.6789 bzazab(at)4ticket.com PO Box 15043 Phoenix, AZ 85060 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: Re: Rudder question
In a message dated 6/1/98 5:08:11 PM Mountain Daylight Time, WmSH(at)aol.com writes: << I should order another doubler angle >> YES, this is such an inexpensive piece and you will feel much better about it! Chalk it up to experience and hope it is your worst mistake. I've done much worse. Steve PS The top of the stabilizer skin is longer than the bottom of the stabilizer. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: Re: Airelon Trim Servos.
In a message dated 6/1/98 7:56:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, don(at)pcperfect.com writes: << installing airelon trim servos. Seems like a great idea >> Don, I thought you wanted to keep it simple A hundred bucks says your panel is IFR before you complete this project. Just being jealous, Steve PS If you guys haven't checked out Don's web site. Do so. Very good. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vraned1(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Jun 01, 1998
Subject: Re: 601 Elevator
James, I scratch built my elevator and I remember making several cross pieces before I achieved the correct spacing. (Althought the 120 is an approximate value.) Don't beef up any area without talking to Chris. You can set up stresses that actually will cause a component to be more susceptible to failure. Strengthening one area just shifts the stress. Also keep in mind, the elevator does not have that much load on it. It just has to move a weight about a fulcrum. Randy Vranish ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARRY MAYNE <bazmay(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: stability problems with CH701
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Unfortunately the request for advice was deleted from my computer before I had time to get the writers details. DO NOT ADD WEIGHT TO THE AFT END. It sounds like the tailplane is stalling on approach under idle power either due to prop wash turbulance from the widmilling prop or possibly the C of G is way out of wack. The other doubtful possibility is loose skins on the tailplane. There was a similar problem down here in OZ (not the same type) and the experts came up with the above possibilities. Hope this is some help. barry mayne (still waiting for kit arrival) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Subject: Re: Elevator Trim Actuator
<< >How are 601HDS builders attaching the MAC S4 Actuator to the upper >elevator skin? >> After carefully enlarging the holes, I used 6-32 screws. I didn't want to take the chance of messing up the paint job if it became necessary to remove the servo. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Subject: Re: Airelon Trim Servos.
<< Getting ready to start on the 601HDS outboard wings and was curious about whether anybody has been installing airelon trim servos. >> I am using the aileron trim. According to Nicholas, bank trim varies sufficiently between solo and dual operation to warrant. The MAC S4A system in Aircraft Spruce is the ticket. I have dimensions from the prototype if you want them. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 1998
From: philip polstra <ppolst(at)sapient.com>
Subject: Re: Airelon Trim Servos.
Don Honabach wrote: > Getting ready to start on the 601HDS outboard wings and was > curious about whether anybody has been installing airelon > trim servos. Seems like a great idea, but wasn't sure if it > was needed, etc. > > If using, where did you purchased (ZAC, mail order, etc.)? > Any installation tips would be greatly appreciated. > I bought a MAC servo system, and some piano hing. I have enough scrap metal for the tab. I also bought the MAC stick grip with the trim buttons on the top. I bought mine from ASS east, but you can also buy directly from MAC. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Airelon Trim Servos.
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Don: Zenith prototype 601 that had aileron trim used same servo as was used on elevator trim. As I remember trim tab was also about same size as used on elevator and was mounted about 1 foot out from right wing splice. Tony Gunn > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Honabach [SMTP:don(at)pcperfect.com] > Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 8:43 PM > To: zenithlist > Subject: Zenith-List: Airelon Trim Servos. > > > Getting ready to start on the 601HDS outboard wings and was > curious about whether anybody has been installing airelon > trim servos. Seems like a great idea, but wasn't sure if it > was needed, etc. > > If using, where did you purchased (ZAC, mail order, etc.)? > Any installation tips would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks! > Don Honabach > > > > 5.0.1458.49"> remember trim tab was also about same size as used on elevator and was message posted by: "Don Honabach" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ronbo135(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Subject: Re: Hard Chroming
I read a couple of books on chroming and found that to regain full strength of the parts, you have to bake them. I don't recall a reference to a time limit for starting the baking. Since the chrome shop I used doesn't do this, I baked the mains (tri-gear) in my kitchen oven. I don't have the library books any more, but it is something like 350 degrees F. for ????. I don't have oven enough for the nose gear, but I'd guess it would rip the firewall off before it broke. In fact, I wouldn't worry about the mains either, but since I had the books and the oven and my wife was on a trip........ Ron Spokane, WA 601HDS scratchbuilt airframe 75% done getting packed for a move (not recommended) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Rudder question
Date: Jun 02, 1998
> > I really hate to ask this question because I made a stupid mistake > right out > of the chute on my rudder kit. Step 2 of the rudder manual directs > you to > snip off the bottom corner of the side flange of the doubler to the > same angle > as the rear rib #1. Well I did the first one precisely opposite > direction > from the plans. Will end up with a diamond shape at the end if I try > to > salvage it and cut in the proper direction, with about 3mm of metal > missing > between the side flange and the inside flange. Don't know it that > makes sense > without a picture, but if anyone can help would like to know if I > should order > another doubler angle or can the salvaged one be used? > Bill, If this is one of the L-angles (slightly more than a 90 degree bend) that run up the rudder spar, simply turn it over and put your error on top. My dad was helping me with the rudder construction a couple of years ago and made the angle measurement (if I remember correctly it was to be 11 degrees) along the long face rather than the short face at the end of the angle and cut it incorrectly. I found that when I put this error at the top, the rivet spacing was such that I still had good edge distance and the problem was solved. Hope this helps, Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru, flying, debugging and enjoying. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Aileron Trim Servo
Date: Jun 02, 1998
> > Don, > > Asked Nicholas at SnF about the need for the right aileron trim servo, > as seen > on the Mexico "Red Bird". > > His response was that it was probably overkill, and it would be just > as simple > to add a small tab of sheet metal to the aileron and bent as required, > after > you get your Zodiac in the air and see how it's initial response is. > > Cliff Martin 601HDS #6-3694 > Richmond,Virginia > This is what I did on my 601HDS. In fact, I have a small tab on each aileron. It balances the look and requires less of a bend on each one. Without a tab on each side or a large tab, it requires a large bend in the tab to get a small deflection. This appears to be because the ailerons use the skin for a hinge, which works like a spring to resist the tab. I now have the plane trimmed for hands off at cruise speed. Some right aileron pressure is required when I slow for approach or maneuvering. And yes, as much as I have been able to measure, everything on the plane is straight and true. I have been scratching my head wondering why I have a tendency to roll to the left. Some is probably engine torque with such a short winged aircraft and the rest is probably my 200 lbs in the left seat. Will find out what happens with weight in the other seat soon. I am now at 28 hrs of the 40 required. Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Rear Nav Light
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Bill, Here is another nifty twist on the nav light story. When the DAR inspected my aircraft, which has the combined position light, strobe, and white nav from Whelan, he discussed the lighting scenario and told me that if he inspected the aircraft as DAY VFR then when I was ready for night flight I could install the appropriate lighting and make an entry in the aircraft logs. He said that the reg's only state that appropriate lighting is required to be installed on the aircraft and he would not have to come back to re-certify. There it is the way it happened. Take it for what it's worth. Jim Weston McDonough, Ga. CH601HDS, flying > > I just got finished talking to an FAA safety inspector at the regional > FSDO > office with regard to a white tail light. > > I explained to him that on the Zodiac there is no fixed vertical stab > to > mount the light on, it needs to go on the rudder. He said that was > acceptable if you ensure that the light is installed with acceptable > engineering practices and does not cause any imbalance or adverse > affects > on the rudder. > > He then had a small conference with his collegues and they came to the > conclusion that if you have the wing tip nav light (red/green) as well > as > the strobes on the wingtips, that the white rear nav light is not > needed! > The strobes actually are visible from the rear and can be considered > to be > a white nav light. This would then satisfy the requirement for night > flight. Keep in mind that the FAR's do not specifically say this. > > Has anyone else heard this scenario before? I'm not all that thrilled > with > mounting the nav light in the rudder (wire flexing) and according to > the > above I would not need to. I just hate to finish the aircraft without > the > tail light and have the FAA inspector at the final inspection say, you > need > to install a rear nav light!!!! > > Thanks, > Bill Morelli > HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: wabeattie(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Subject: Rudder question
Bill, AS I mentioned in a direct E-Mail to you, It might be best to leave the skin on the rudder and stabilizer clecoed until you get the rear fuselage riveted together. The rudder attachments and stabilizer attachment point dimensions seem to vary with each aircraft I have looked at and measured. I had to deskin the stabilizer and install new attachment brackets to correct a width difference I discovered when I tried to mate the stabilizer to the fuselage. Not deadly, but a time consumer. Got lucky with the rudder brackets, though. Wayne N601WB ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder question Date: 5/31/98 10:50 AM Bill Morelli wrote: > Does that mean I should wait until I am ready to mount the rudder to the > fuse before drilling the holes in the spar for the upper bearing? > Yup....It's often wise to shoot the arrow first, then paint the bullseye. This philosophy has saved me much grief in 3 aircraft projects. Use this approach wherever possible Regards, James Neely ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 1998
From: Leo Gates <leogates(at)tooeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Hard Chroming
I'm getting ready to have my main gear hard chromed. What part(s) need to be chromed? Just the main gear legs (6-L-1-1)? I guess I'll ask the guy doing the chroming if he bakes them when done. Leo Gates Ronbo135(at)aol.com wrote: > > I read a couple of books on chroming and found that to regain full strength of > the parts, you have to bake them. I don't recall a reference to a time limit > for starting the baking. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sharon Honabach" <sharon(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Rudder Trim
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Has any one considered using rudder trim? On some of the Cessna 172's I've flown they've had adjustable rudder trim and it was extremely nice not having to keep rudder pressure to keep the ball centered. However, I'm not sure if the Zodiac's rudders are "difficult to hold" for any length of time. Any thoughts on using this instead of or inconjuction with airelon trim? Looking forward to the comments. Don Honabach - 601HDS Tempe, AZ http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac trim? flown they've had adjustable rudder trim and it was extremely nice not having to keep rudder pressure to keep the ball centered. However, I'm not sure if the Zodiac's rudders are "difficult to hold" for any length of inconjuction with ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)mail.jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Rudder Trim
Sharon Honabach wrote: > Has any one considered using rudder trim? > Any thoughts on using this instead of or inconjuction with airelon trim? I sure wouldn't. In the 55 hours or so I've flown mine, I decided that the rudder pedals make a nice place to rest your feet unless you're landing or coordinating your turn. (this from an old glider pilot too!...Heresy!!), I can't imagine needing adjustable trim on the rudder, or rudder trim at all unless your bird is out of rig. The KISS rules. James Neely ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Rudder Trim
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Don: It seems some people I've talked too indicate the rudder isn't much needed in 601 except maybe for slips, etc. Most time aileron inputs still result in pretty much coordinated turns. I'll be interested in what others say, especially those already flying. Tony Gunn > -----Original Message----- > From: Sharon Honabach [SMTP:sharon(at)pcperfect.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 2:59 PM > To: zenithlist(at)matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Trim > > > > > Has any one considered using rudder trim? > > > Looking forward to the comments. > Don Honabach - 601HDS > Tempe, AZ > http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac > > > > > 5.0.1458.49"> too indicate the rudder isn't much needed in 601 except maybe for ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 1998
From: jpleroy(at)ssvec.org (Joanny Leroy)
Subject: Re: Rudder Trim
> > Has any one considered using rudder trim? > > On some of the Cessna 172's I've flown they've had adjustable rudder > trim and it was extremely nice not having to keep rudder pressure to > keep the ball centered. However, I'm not sure if the Zodiac's rudders > are "difficult to hold" for any length of time. > > Any thoughts on using this instead of or inconjuction with airelon trim? > > Looking forward to the comments. > Don Honabach - 601HDS > Tempe, AZ > http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac The rudder trim instead of the aileron trim would seem to be more effective since the ailerons are stiffer to move than the rudder with its conventional hinges. Less deflection would be necessary with the rudder trim tab. With the amount of dihedral the wings have, the rudder seems like it could pick up a wing nicely. Can anybody out there comment on how well the rudder picks up a wing? Philippe Leroy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 1998
From: Craig Cousins <cousins(at)cujo2.icom.ca>
Subject: Good Service
Hey guys: How about this. I faxed a technical question to Chris Heintz in Midland, Ontario at 7:31 a.m. and got the response at 7:32 a.m. Good service eh!!! Craig _|_ Craig Cousins ___(o)___ / \ C-FTAZ Check out the CH300 builders site at: http://www.icom.ca/~cousins/ch300/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jayres(at)entergy.com
Date: Jun 02, 1998
Subject: Re: taking over ch601 project
Mike, I also recently took over a 601HDS project about 60% complete. It was started as a tail dragger. The center wing section was already closed in with the gear installed. So I have spent the last 3-4 months drilling out rivets, patching holes, making new gear ribs, etc. I just finished the first side. Still have the other to go. To be honest, It's been a real pain in the ass, but I didn't want a tail dragger. I hope that once I get past the destruction/conversion process, things will go alot faster. I know re-doing someone else's work is not very easy (matching previously drilled holes, etc). Hope this helped. Jimmy Ayres jayres(at)entergy.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Zenith-List: taking over ch601 project Date: 6/1/98 7:55 PM Has anyone taken over another builder's CH 601 HD kit? I'm taking over one that's 60% done. Any info would help. Thanks, Mike Landgraf 602.678.6789 bzazab(at)4ticket.com PO Box 15043 Phoenix, AZ 85060 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Austin TX builder/s
I have a friend that lives in Austin, TX and is interested in seeing a CH601 that is either flying or being built. Is anyone out there from Austin or know of someone in Austin that is a Zodiacite? Thanks, Bill Morelli HDS - Vermont ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peter Nunn <peter.nunn(at)interactionsystems.com>
Subject: Aluminium Suppliers
Date: Jun 03, 1998
Can anyone put me onto suppliers for 6061-T6 0.016" material. regards ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: Tom Decker <tdecker(at)spectra.net>
Subject: Re: Aluminium Suppliers
Peter , The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works Charles T. Vogelsong 114 Sawmill Road Dillsburg , PA 17019 Tel. 717-432-4589 ....Tom Decker > >Can anyone put me onto suppliers for 6061-T6 0.016" material. > >regards > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby(at)GSC.GTE.Com>
<5DD592B8031BD111A0D200805FC11D02953515(at)chnt10.winnt.chnt.gsc.gte.com> 601HDS #6-3694 in Richmond,VA I am building a 601HDS in Culpeper, VA. How far along are you? Roger Kilby 601HDS #6-3710 rkmk(at)erols.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Aluminium Suppliers
> >Can anyone put me onto suppliers for 6061-T6 0.016" material. > +++++ Airparts Inc. 2400 Merriam Lane, Kansas City, Mo. 66106, (800) 800-3229. Even have a web site www.airpartsinc.com Perhaps you may remember seeing ads with a lady standing up inside a huge roll of aluminum sheet..... That's them. They have tons of 6061 stock! Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: 701,1s
Bernie Gunn wrote: > > > Hello to all 701 buiiders. > If power cut, nose falls like a brick and has damaged (bent) front axle, which > is too light for a safari tire. Hello Bernie. 1. The front axle (among other parts) is too weak, 2 fuselages bent on hard landings here in France because of this axle. He should make an axle with a 6061 round and lathe it, make threads on both ends and install it with 2 big washers and nuts. 2. Does this nose-down occurs with or without flaps, at what speed and where is the CG ? 3. I left Wanaka in january, and very sad not to have seen the airshow. Claude. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Elevator Trim Actuator
Nathan Schiff wrote: > > How are 601HDS builders attaching the MAC S4 Actuator to the upper > elevator skin? Rivets A4 or A5? Or other? If other what and where > acquired? > I don't know the 601. On the 701 I attached it on the upper skin with 2 A4 rivets. And made a door of 3.5 x 3.5 for visit, bend in diamond (2 diagonals) and fixed with 8 A3 rivets. Accurate enough ? On the 701, the kit contains a "trim". It's a plate bent AT ONE END plus a low quality hinge. My free advice is : 1. install the plate with a "L" in the middle. Connect the actuator there, IN THE MIDDLE, like God says. 2. spend few more bucks for a EXTRUDED hinge (with much less play), like MS20001P. Claude ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Good Service
Craig Cousins wrote: > > How about this. I faxed a technical question to Chris Heintz in Midland, > Ontario at 7:31 a.m. and got the response at 7:32 a.m. > > Good service eh!!! Not impressed at all : I get Bernie messages 12 hours before he posts them. Eh ? Claude ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Work Bench Re-visited
Bill Morelli wrote: > > I had trouble finding leveling legs so I did the following: > > - Drilled 3/8 holes in bottom of legs > - Installed 3/8" "T" nuts in holes. These are nuts with a flange and teeth > that can be hammered into the 3/8 hole. They end up flush with the leg > bottom. > - Placed a 3/8 nut on a 3/8 x 3" carriage bolt. > - Screwed carriage bolt into "T" nut to use it as a leg. > - 3/8 nut is used as a lock nut after adjustment. > Hey Bill. I can't resist to add my 2 cents for you and the perfectionnists, if any. To level my 7m x 1.25m bench (I'm building a motor glider now, spars made), built with 12 legs as you said above, I used a method known since the light was : Make 3 L angles from scrap alum, about 4" x 2", bent in the middle, able to stand on the table. In each one, drill a pinhole, the 3 holes must be at the same distance from the table. I hear you : he wants me to make an optical bench... You got it. Set a L in A, another in B, a lamp behind A. Put the 3rd over each leg along AB and tune the legs to see the light through the 3 L : AB is then straight. Easy to say, tricky to do : you will have to come back again and again. Do the same for CD. Then check that the table is not twisted : set one L at the center X of the table and check that the diagonals AD and BC cross through this center. I suppose the small sides AC and BD are straight by definition. Then your bench may be not quite level, but is a plane with an accuracy the diameter of the pinholes, basic geometry says. A.............B .......X....... <= yes, that's my workbench ! C.............D BTW, what height is your bench ? I cut legs of mine after having worked on a friend's one which is 68cm high only : try it, then regret it, then soon find it VERY comfortable, especially if you have to install jigs, or simply find a sleeping place for an unexpected arrival of friends. Claude 701-912, waiting since one year for someone to paint it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Aircraft Spruce & catalogues
Hi all, I've noted several references to a catalogue from Aircraft Spruce, and other companies. I'd like to obtain these. Could anyone give me an e-mail or web-page address or regular address for companies/catalogues that you find helpful in building your aircraft. Thanks in advance, Grant Corriveau Montreal 601 somewhere in that great middle zone of non-completion ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 03, 1998
Subject: Re: Rudder question
<< Drawing 6-T-4 has a comment at the 370 mm dimension that reads (check with your fuselage) Does that mean I should wait until I am ready to mount the rudder to the fuse before drilling the holes in the spar for the upper bearing? Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont >> Hi Bill. I'd say it's a good idea to wait till you are almost done with the rear fuselage. I went ahead and finished my rudder, and then when I did a trial fit with the rear fuselage, I had to add a 2mm shim to the upper rudder attach point on the rear fuselage. It probably would be better to make the adjustments on the rudder. Have fun. Dick (601-HDS, working on center wing). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nathan Schiff" <NatRus(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Spruce & catalogues
Date: Jun 03, 1998
Air Craft Spruce has two 800 #'s one on the East Coast in Griffin GA. - 800-831-2949 and one on the west coast in Corona CA 800 824-1930 Nate Schiff -- NatRus(at)worldnet.att.net Charleston, South Carolina N271ES -- ZAC CH601HDS Rudder & stabilizer complete Completing elevator control and trim system -----Original Message----- From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 8:35 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Aircraft Spruce & catalogues > >Hi all, > >I've noted several references to a catalogue from Aircraft Spruce, and >other companies. I'd like to obtain these. Could anyone give me an >e-mail or web-page address or regular address for companies/catalogues >that you find helpful in building your aircraft. > >Thanks in advance, >Grant Corriveau >Montreal >601 somewhere in that great middle zone of non-completion > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 03, 1998
Subject: Re: Elevator Trim Actuator
<< How are 601HDS builders attaching the MAC S4 Actuator to the upper elevator skin? Rivets A4 or A5? Or other? If other what and where acquired? >> Nate - I used A4 rivets, after carefully adjusting the pushrods with the actuator clecoed to the top skin. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 03, 1998
Subject: Re: Airelon Trim Servos.
<< Getting ready to start on the 601HDS outboard wings and was curious about whether anybody has been installing airelon trim servos. Seems like a great idea, but wasn't sure if it was needed, etc. If using, where did you purchased (ZAC, mail order, etc.)? Any installation tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Don Honabach >> At SnF '97, I noticed that Zenith's Zodiac prototype has an aileron trim installed in the right aileron. I decided to wait and see if my plane will be straigh as an arrow, and if not, will install the trim servo before the paint job. The fact that the factory demo has an aileron trim servo indicates that this plane may not fly staright as an arrow unassisted. Cheers, Dick (601-HDS, working on center wing...) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 03, 1998
Subject: Re: Control cable window
<< Has anyone placed a door in the underside of the fuselage in order to access the rudder control cables for tension adjustment? Thanks, Fred Schill Columbus, Ohio >> Hi Fred I'm looking ahead figuring out how best to install the rudder control cables. I am hoping to install the cable tensioners as close to behind the seats as possible, for easy access with the seat backs removed. You're probably more ahead than I am, so maybe you can check and shed some light on that. Besides, that scheme will move the extra weight close to the C.G. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 03, 1998
Subject: Steel Greasing
Fellows: One of the things we are left on our own is how and with what to preserve the gear legs and lubricate bearings and steel bushings. The steel parts that came with the kit, if left untreated, will rust badly in humid conditions. I know some builders are chroming their gears to aid in gear movement in their respective bearings. But, are you rustproofing the insides of your gear legs and other steel parts? My tech counselor told me that aircraft factories uses hot linseed oil treatment for the insides of steel tubing to prevent rust. A few weekends ago I decided to apply linseed oil for my gear legs, torque tube, and control stick. After letting the oil drip away into empty coffee cans, I was pleasantly surprised at how well the oil adheres to the inside surface. Additionally, the oil later hardens to form a film covering. The parts of the tubing I had my hands on shows shiny surfaces (the oil hardened into a film). So, I decided to experiment with one of the tubes and coated the outside of the nose gear leg and let it sit for a few days. The resultant film produced a shiny surface, though not slippery to the touch. Additionally, when you handle the tube, you get none of that "metal smell" on your hands. Intrigued, I just went ahead and coated the the main legs and later the torque tube and control stick after installation. Has anyone used linseed oil? If so, do you like the rust-prevention quality? If you don't like it, why? Would love to hear from others about their experiences with linseed oil. As mentioned above, I installed the torque tube and control stick. There is a bushing in the torque tube where the control stick attaches to. The drawing says to lubricate the bushing, so I removed the bushing (actually, carefully tapped it out) and cleaned the hole and bushing. I then coated the bushing with lithium grease, and applied the grease to the hole in the torgue tube. The bushing went into the hole with micro effort and I bolted on the control stick. I also used lithium grease in both bearings for the torque tube. The movement of the control stick is very smooth, more so that when I temporarily installed the assembly dry. I used lithium grease because it never dries out and maintains it's lubricating qualities (I used this grease for other purposes for more than 20 years, and all treated surfaces have not rusted). Has anyone used this grease? If not, what are you using to lubricate bushings and bearings with? Do you know of any negative qualities of lithium grease? Dick (working on center wing and riveting pre-drilled rear fuselage, getting ready to join 'em in a few weeks...). Wow! Airplane parts coming together! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 03, 1998
Subject: Re: Steel Greasing
Fellows: One of the things we are left on our own is how and with what to preserve the gear legs and lubricate bearings and steel bushings. The steel parts that came with the kit, if left untreated, will rust badly in humid conditions. I know some builders are chroming their gears to aid in gear movement in their respective bearings. But, are you rustproofing the insides of your gear legs and other steel parts? My tech counselor told me that aircraft factories uses hot linseed oil treatment for the insides of steel tubing to prevent rust. A few weekends ago I decided to apply linseed oil for my gear legs, torque tube, and control stick. After letting the oil drip away into empty coffee cans, I was pleasantly surprised at how well the oil adheres to the inside surface. Additionally, the oil later hardens to form a film covering. The parts of the tubing I had my hands on shows shiny surfaces (the oil hardened into a film). So, I decided to experiment with one of the tubes and coated the outside of the nose gear leg and let it sit for a few days. The resultant film produced a shiny surface, though not slippery to the touch. Additionally, when you handle the tube, you get none of that "metal smell" on your hands. Intrigued, I just went ahead and coated the the main legs and later the torque tube and control stick after installation. Has anyone used linseed oil? If so, do you like the rust-prevention quality? If you don't like it, why? Would love to hear from others about their experiences with linseed oil. As mentioned above, I installed the torque tube and control stick. There is a bushing in the torque tube where the control stick attaches to. The drawing says to lubricate the bushing, so I removed the bushing (actually, carefully tapped it out) and cleaned the hole and bushing. I then coated the bushing with lithium grease, and applied the grease to the hole in the torgue tube. The bushing went into the hole with micro effort and I bolted on the control stick. I also used lithium grease in both bearings for the torque tube. The movement of the control stick is very smooth, more so that when I temporarily installed the assembly dry. I used lithium grease because it never dries out and maintains it's lubricating qualities (I used this grease for other purposes for more than 20 years, and all treated surfaces have not rusted). Has anyone used this grease? If not, what are you using to lubricate bushings and bearings with? Do you know of any negative qualities of lithium grease? Dick (working on center wing and riveting pre-drilled rear fuselage, getting ready to join 'em in a few weeks...). Wow! Airplane parts coming together! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: anewell(at)canuck.com (Alan Newell)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Spruce & catalogues
>I've noted several references to a catalogue from Aircraft Spruce, and >other companies. I'd like to obtain these. Could anyone give me an >e-mail or web-page address or regular address for companies/catalogues >that you find helpful in building your aircraft. Aircraft Spruce Web Site is http//www.aircraft-spruce.com e-mail is info@aircraft-spruce.com I've used them a lot to suppply parts and have found their service to be good. Regards Alan Newell (anewell(at)canuck.com) Calgary, Alberta, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: anewell(at)canuck.com (Alan Newell)
Subject: I'm Done!
I had the final inspection of my 601HDS yesterday and it was signed off with no snags. Now I only have to wait for the C of A to arrive from Transport Canada and I can be off into the wide blue yonder (or at least that part of it that lies within 25 miles of the airport!). My heart rate is already up thinking about the first flights! I hope the 10 hours that I have put on a 601 UL will stand me in good stead. Regards Alan Newell (anewell(at)canuck.com) Calgary, Alberta, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Electrical draw
A couple of weeks ago we were discussing the amount of amperes the generators/altenators of various engines were supplying. I found a good FYI.... I just received Wicks new 98 catalog, and on page 353 there is printed a "Typical Electrical Load Analysis" chart of amperes drawn for each item such as various instruments, lights, fuel pumps, etc. This particular chart is for 12 volt systems. Some pretty surprising items listed there. You might find it interesting and benificial. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: I'm Done!
> >I had the final inspection of my 601HDS yesterday and it was signed off. >My heart rate is already up thinking about the first flights! >Alan Newell (anewell(at)canuck.com) +++++ Speaking for all the rest of us out here that are still buildin..."Congratulations Alan !" Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 04, 1998
Subject: Re: Control cable window
<< I am hoping to install the cable tensioners as close to behind the seats as possible, for easy access with the seat backs removed. >> Put my rudder turnbuckles right at the pedals to eliminate one set of cable crimps. They are easy to reach and inspect. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 04, 1998
Subject: Re: Steel Greasing
<< Has anyone used this grease? If not, what are you using to lubricate bushings and bearings with? >> Initially I was unhappy with the force required to move my nosegear and began experimenting with a few different lubricants. I was almost ready to redesign the bearing when I tried a spray lube called ZEP 2000. This stuff sprays on like oil, penetrates and somewhat solidifies. It contains Teflon and it works terrific. Only concern now is if it will withstand heat under the cowling. It has seen 6 months of 100+ degrees in the garage (SW Florida) with no adverse results. Because of the penetrating factor, I have used it anywhere a lubricant is called for. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 1998
From: Jim or Lucy Pollard <jpollard(at)mnsi.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Question
<356EE82A.1B86(at)wanadoo.fr> <356EA549.DB02D91F(at)jet2.net> <35713EBA.5AC3(at)total.net> >London Air Show next weekend? There is an alternative engines >seminar @ 0930 on Sat. I plan to fly in, weather permitting, early Sat A.M. >Regards, >James neely What area of the airport is the siminar being held at a London James? Jim Pollard Kent Flying Machines ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 1998
From: "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby(at)GSC.GTE.Com>
Subject: Gear Chrome
<5DD592B8031BD111A0D200805FC11D02953519(at)chnt10.winnt.chnt.gsc.gte.com> Where are you taking your gear to get it chromed? What kind of business does this? Are there any specifics you give as to how you want it done? Thanks. Roger Kilby 601HDS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Steel Greasing
Date: Jun 04, 1998
> -----Original Message----- > From: RLucka(at)aol.com [SMTP:RLucka(at)aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 8:48 PM > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Steel Greasing > > My tech counselor told me that aircraft factories uses hot linseed oil > treatment for the insides of steel tubing to prevent rust. > [Tony Gunn] Linseed oil may work well as a rust preventive, but be very careful with storage of oily rags. I had an example of spontaneous combustion with linseed oil soaked rags 20 years ago that almost burned my garage down. Even laying the rags out flat (to dry) on a cold concrete floor didn't provide enough cooling/ventilation to prevent combustion. I've talked to some firefighting types who say not to store them, but to go ahead and burn them after use so you know the hazard is gone. Tony Gunn, HDS 2/3 done, Houston, TX 5.0.1458.49"> work well as a rust preventive, but be very careful with storage with linseed oil soaked rags 20 years ago that almost burned my garage floor didn't provide enough cooling/ventilation to prevent types who say not to store them, but to go ahead and burn them after ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)mail.jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Question
<356EE82A.1B86(at)wanadoo.fr> <356EA549.DB02D91F(at)jet2.net> <35713EBA.5AC3(at)total.net> <3.0.5.32.19980604075119.007ae5e0(at)in.mnsi.net> Jim or Lucy Pollard wrote: There is an alternative engines seminar @ 0930 on Sat. I plan to fly in, weather permitting, early Sat A.M. > What area of the airport is the siminar being held at a London James? > > I dunno. I'm sure there will be signs w/ directions at the airshow. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Control cable window
ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > << I am hoping to install the cable tensioners as close to behind the seats as > possible, for easy access with the seat backs removed. >> > > Put my rudder turnbuckles right at the pedals to eliminate one set of cable > crimps. They are easy to reach and inspect. I put my rudder turnbuckles right at the rudder to eliminate one set of cable crimps. They are easier to reach and inspect. Claude ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Re: I'm Done!
Alan Newell wrote: > > > I had the final inspection of my 601HDS yesterday and it was signed off > with no snags. Now I only have to wait for the C of A to arrive from > Transport Canada and I can be off into the wide blue yonder (or at least > that part of it that lies within 25 miles of the airport!). > > My heart rate is already up thinking about the first flights! I hope the > 10 hours that I have put on a 601 UL will stand me in good stead. > > Regards > > Alan Newell (anewell(at)canuck.com) > Calgary, Alberta, Canada CONGRATULATIONS! You'll be another one I'll be looking to for actual flight experiences. There are days when I seriously wonder if I'll ever get all this metal put together and actually fly! It will be very encouraging to continue to hear of your flights as they occur. good work, Alan! Grant Corriveau Montreal 601 hds 50% ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Re: Gear Chrome
Kilby, Roger wrote: > > > Where are you taking your gear to get it chromed? > What kind of business does this? > Are there any specifics you give as to how you want it done? > > Thanks. > > Roger Kilby > 601HDS Roger, My wife found a place - she's pretty good at detective work like that. She just started calling shops/people we know of and found it. I'm lucky to be in Montreal because there is a large aircraft industry here. The shop also does landing gears for the Bombardier Regional Jet. The fellow I talked to was very helpful. As soon as I explain that I'm building an aircraft, people seem to get very interested and helpful. He needed to look at the parts a little to decide how to prepare them. For example the threads had to be covered so as not to change dimensions by being chromed. And he had to deal with the various holes in the struts so that air bubbling out would not interfere with the chroming process. The actual work order says: Processing - Mask as per drawing / chrome plate per QQ-C-320 REV "B-4" (thickness .0003"/.0005") They also baked them and the interiour was oil-treated as well. Total cost was $200Cnd. I had to leave them with him for a couple of weeks while he waited for a chance to slip them into the line with a bigger job in process. Now that I have them back i'm very happy with the results. He was careful to make sure I knew ahead of time that they would NOT be shiny. Industrial hard chrome is about the same color as aluminum paint. (Wow, listen to me - an 'expert' in hard chroming! Just another example of the how building this aircraft is stretching me beyond my previous experience and 'comfort zones' :) Hope this helps, Grant Corriveau 601 hds Montreal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kustom(at)oz.sunflower.org
Date: Jun 04, 1998
Subject: Re: Steel Greasing
RLucka(at)aol.com wrote: > > > Fellows: > > One of the things we are left on our own is how and with what to preserve > the gear legs and lubricate bearings and steel bushings. > > The steel parts that came with the kit, if left untreated, will rust badly > in humid conditions. I know some builders are chroming their gears to aid > in gear movement in their respective bearings. But, are you rustproofing > the insides of your gear legs and other steel parts? > > My tech counselor told me that aircraft factories uses hot linseed oil > treatment for the insides of steel tubing to prevent rust. A few weekends > ago I decided to apply linseed oil for my gear legs, torque tube, and > control stick. After letting the oil drip away into empty coffee cans, > I was pleasantly surprised at how well the oil adheres to the inside > surface. > Additionally, the oil later hardens to form a film covering. The parts of > the tubing I had my hands on shows shiny surfaces (the oil hardened into a > film). So, I decided to experiment with one of the tubes and coated the > outside of the nose gear leg and let it sit for a few days. The resultant > film produced a shiny surface, though not slippery to the touch. > Additionally, > when you handle the tube, you get none of that "metal smell" on your hands. > Intrigued, I just went ahead and coated the the main legs and later the > torque tube and control stick after installation. > > Has anyone used linseed oil? If so, do you like the rust-prevention > quality? > If you don't like it, why? Would love to hear from others about their > experiences with linseed oil. > > As mentioned above, I installed the torque tube and control stick. There is > a > bushing in the torque tube where the control stick attaches to. The drawing > says to lubricate the bushing, so I removed the bushing (actually, carefully > tapped it out) and cleaned the hole and bushing. I then coated the bushing > with lithium grease, and applied the grease to the hole in the torgue tube. > The bushing went into the hole with micro effort and I bolted on the control > stick. I also used lithium grease in both bearings for the torque tube. > The movement of the control stick is very smooth, more so that when I > temporarily installed the assembly dry. I used lithium grease because it > never dries out and maintains it's lubricating qualities (I used this grease > for other purposes for more than 20 years, and all treated surfaces have not > rusted). > > Has anyone used this grease? If not, what are you using to lubricate > bushings > and bearings with? Do you know of any negative qualities of lithium grease? > >Hot linseed oil has been used on production certified aircraft forever, certified aircraft such as Piper TriPacers etc, so it must be pretty good stuff. In official repair texts it is still recommended...... go for it ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 1998
From: Craig Cousins <cousins(at)cujo2.icom.ca>
Subject: Service
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Good Service Craig Cousins wrote: > > How about this. I faxed a technical question to Chris Heintz in Midland, > Ontario at 7:31 a.m. and got the response at 7:32 a.m. > > Good service eh!!! """"Not impressed at all : I get Bernie messages 12 hours before he posts them. Eh ? Claude"""" OK Claude. You win. But just on a mere technicality (like a rift in the space-time continuum). Must be all those RV6's burning holes in the sky creating a temperal disturbance (must be a Star Trek fan or something). Cheers Craig _|_ Craig Cousins ___(o)___ / \ C-FTAZ Check out the CH300 builders site at: http://www.icom.ca/~cousins/ch300/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Weiss <cingar(at)wagner.mtco.com>
Subject: new bldr
Date: Jun 04, 1998
I,m new to site and just starting stab. Spars done. Starting to cleco ribs and noticed no consideration to needing shim between "outer" inner rib and spar, and all the ribs on top of rear spar due to no doublers at these locations. Do you add a shim or am I trying to be too precise here. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: new bldr
Date: Jun 04, 1998
|I,m new to site and just starting stab. Spars done. Starting to cleco ribs and noticed no consideration to needing shim between "outer" inner rib and spar, and all the ribs on top of rear spar due to no doublers at these locations. Do you add a shim or am I trying to be too precise here. Had the same question when working on the stabilizer. Decided to not shim the outer ribs nor the inner spacing between the doublers. However, if I was to rebuild the stabilizer I would add or shim the outer ribs to ensure that the skeleton/frame can be true/square. The space between the doublers I have to assume is structural sound despite it's appearance of desperately need to be shimmed. What can happen and did happen during my stabilizer build was the 2 to 3 mm difference with the skeleton caused me to miss my edge distance by 1 or 2mm along the middle section of the skeleton (the outer edges were slightly bowed inwards), and I had to add some extra rivets to compensate. All in all, no big deal, but just wish I had taken the time to add spacer/shims to avoid extra weight and ugly rivet pattern. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "PFlyer" <pflyer(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: I'm Done!
Date: Jun 05, 1998
Alan, Congratulations, you've done it !! Oh that feeling of flying something you have built with your own two hands. Alan please don't forget us in the trenches, write to tell us all ( good or bad ) . Good luck and fly friendly ! Peter Ferguson pflyer(at)ibm.net or my web page www.city-guide.com/baron >I had the final inspection of my 601HDS yesterday and it was signed off >with no snags. Now I only have to wait for the C of A to arrive from >Transport Canada and I can be off into the wide blue yonder (or at least >that part of it that lies within 25 miles of the airport!). My heart rate is already up thinking about the first flights! I hope the10 hours that I have put on a 601 UL will stand me in good stead.Regards > >Alan Newell (anewell(at)canuck.com) >Calgary, Alberta, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JMacDCSM(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 05, 1998
Subject: Rudder Beacon
Any suggestions on a possible rudder beacon ? I've always liked flipping on the beacon light to let everyone know the fan is spinning and you're ready to taxi. I tried using the miniature beacon from Aircraft Spruce (p 349), but the 2 1/2" base (and 3" high) is just too much for the top rudder rib, and just too much mass up there. Now I'm looking into automotive clearance lights for the smaller size and streamline shape. Any other ideas or suggestions? Thanks, - Jim 601 HD ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Rib Too Small
Date: Jun 05, 1998
Hello Fellow Zodiac Builders, Was hoping that someone might have some suggestions on the following rib flange spacing problem. Working on my rudder (already have my stabilizer and elevator finished) and have a problem with my rib at the 590mm station (this is the rib that is in parallel with the nose rib). The rib's flange is about 2 to 3mm away from the spar flange on both sides. All other ribs match up nicely with spar flange. My concern lies during the skinning process. This is going to creat a fairly large pull on the rib flange and probably cause the skin to bow inwards at this rib on both sides. Would like to just ask for another rib from ZAC, but my concern is that there mold is just going to produce another rib with the same problem. Are there any builders out there that could produce this rib to the correct dimensions? Has anyone else noticed this sort of issue? If so, did it make any difference during the skinning process? Thanks! Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601hds http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac on the elevator finished) and have a problem with my rib at the 590mm station (this is the rib that is in parallel with the nose rib). The rib's flange is about 2 to 3mm away from the spar flange on both sides. All other ribs match up nicely with spar going to creat a fairly large pull on the rib flange and probably cause the skin to bow inwards at this rib on both sides. Would like to just ask for another rib from ZAC, but my concern is that there mold is just going to produce another rib with this rib to the correct dimensions? Has anyone else noticed this sort of issue? If so, ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peter Nunn <peter.nunn(at)interactionsystems.com>
Subject: Rib Too Small
Date: Jun 06, 1998
No th erib from zenith cam that way. The only thing to watch is that the first rivet can miss the end of the rib or be too close. Just move the rivets in a little but it doesn't case any skin problems. -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, 6 June 1998 12:35 Subject: Zenith-List: Rib Too Small Hello Fellow Zodiac Builders, Was hoping that someone might have some suggestions on the following rib flange spacing problem. Working on my rudder (already have my stabilizer and elevator finished) and have a problem with my rib at the 590mm station (this is the rib that is in parallel with the nose rib). The rib's flange is about 2 to 3mm away from the spar flange on both sides. All other ribs match up nicely with spar flange. My concern lies during the skinning process. This is going to creat a fairly large pull on the rib flange and probably cause the skin to bow inwards at this rib on both sides. Would like to just ask for another rib from ZAC, but my concern is that there mold is just going to produce another rib with the same problem. Are there any builders out there that could produce this rib to the correct dimensions? Has anyone else noticed this sort of issue? If so, did it make any difference during the skinning process? Thanks! Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601hds http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac on the elevator finished) and have a problem with my rib at the 590mm station (this is the rib that is in parallel with the nose rib). The rib's flange is about 2 to 3mm away from the spar flange on both sides. All other ribs match up nicely with spar going to creat a fairly large pull on the rib flange and probably cause the skin to bow inwards at this rib on both sides. Would like to just ask for another rib from ZAC, but my concern is that there mold is just going to produce another rib with this rib to the correct dimensions? Has anyone else noticed this sort of issue? If so, ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WmSH(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 06, 1998
Subject: Re: Rib Too Small
Don, Just finished drilling and clecoing the rear rudder skin two days ago. Yep, noticed the same thing while laying out the rivet lines on the skin. Didn't cause any problems with skin bowing and looks fine. Just remember to space your first rivet on this particular rib about 5 mm further in to obtain the 10mm edge distance. Hope this helps Bill Hickman (601 HDS) Drilling rudder nose skin ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Rib Too Small
Date: Jun 06, 1998
Thanks to everyone that replied on the rib flange distance question. I went back and re-read my problem description and found it was poorly written. Probably shouldn't ask for advice past my bed time. Since a drawing will probably describe my worries better, I've put one up at http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac/tips&.htm All help is greatly appreciated. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 1998
From: anewell(at)canuck.com (Alan Newell)
Subject: Re: Control cable window
>I'm looking ahead figuring out how best to install the rudder control cables. >I am hoping to install the cable tensioners as close to behind the seats as >possible, for easy access with the seat backs removed. I put my tensioners just behind the seat also. Having very recently completed the final assembly and cable tensioning the scrapes on my shoulders still haven't quite healed. It is possible to tension the cables and install lock wire through the angles but its not a job that I would like to do often. I thought about an access panel but decided against it for simplicity. I'm still happy with my choice. A word of caution on working behind the seats. The baggage floor cross piece 6-F-13-4 is really flimsy and will kink the first time you put much weight anywhere other than directly over the center support. The whole structure is robust enough for 40 pounds of baggage but won't take a heavy point load without bending. It's such a natural place to put your arm for support while working in this area that I know I am not the only one who has carried out this particular strength test! Regards Alan Newell (anewell(at)canuck.com) Calgary, Alberta, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kjl33u(at)ezy.net
Date: Jun 06, 1998
Subject: Re: Rudder Beacon
JIM I made a tail light (flasher) for the top of rudder on my CESSNA 140, using a small glass sediment bowl from the gasulator of a yard tractor. for the bulb I used a 100w quartz halogen bulb purchased from my local auto parts store. I also purchased a complete socket assy., which fit into the glass bowl. Then I used a heavy duty automotive flasher (mounted in the tail cone) to drive the light. the flash rate came out to be about once every 3 sec. a word of warning I first tried a small plastic bowl, but the heat from the halogen bulb melted the plastic. The complete assy, only weighed a few ounces. It worked very well and I was able to get a one time field approveable from my local GADO inspector. regards: ken lennox salisbury md. 601 HDS 6-3783 tail group comleted, waiting for my wing kit ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 06, 1998
Subject: Please Read - New List Feature...
Listers: With way over 1000 members on the combined RV and Zenith email lists, I have to stay on top of bouncing email accounts. The amount of returned mail can reach the 4-5 Mb per day mark very quickly. As stated in the FAQ, I will generally remove an address from the List if it is causing bounce problems. Many times the problem was transient and the person's email may be working again in a few days or so. Since the sheer volume of bounce mail makes being too picky about who gets removed impossible, I simply tell List subscribers that if their email is working okay now, to just go ahead and resubscribe. "But how do I know if I've been removed from the List?" Well, there are some tools within the Majordomo List manager, but admittedly these are not for the faint of heart... Alas, I have written special web page that will list every email address that is removed from the List and exactly why it was removed. The Page will be automatically updated each time I "clean house" and the most receint removals can be found at the top of the list. If you do find your email address on the removal list, note the cause of the removal, and if it has been fixed, there are hyperlinks on the page to the resubscribe to the List of your choice. (The new digest lists are not explicitly shown but can be subscribed to by simply adding a "-digest" to the email address, e.g. "rv-list-request" becomes "rv-list-digest-request"). I just cleaned-house on the Lists this morning and these address are _not_ shown on the new page since I wrote it after I cleaned, but there are a couple of entries in there now so you can get an idea of how it works. To access the new list page, simply surf over to the respective List web page and click on the hyperlink intitled "Hey I'm Not Getting List Mail Anymore!"... The URLs are: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/index.html and http://www.matronics.com/zenith-list/index.html Best regards, Matt Dralle List Administrator -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 06, 1998
Subject: Fuel
Hello fellow builders, As I get further into this project, and more flying hours under my, I have yet to see AUTO fuel at any airport I have landed at. Can the Rotax run on 100LL? This seems like it could be an issue. Even though I am installing leading adge tanks for extended range I really don't want to haul fuel to and from the airpot. And an old aviators axiom I once read went something like this.....Number son....You can never use runway that is already behind you and number 2....You can never use fuel left behind. Or something like that..... Steve F. Tail section complete. Started outboard wing panels today. 601hds. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 1998
From: Greg Ferris <ferret(at)forbin.com>
Subject: Elevator
Last week there were several messages about building the elevator. A specific point of interest to me is attaching the brackets to the elevator. Several people mentioned that the distance between the end of the elevator and the cutout turned out smaller than the 120mm that was called out. Mine turned out to be 110mm. What did everyone who had this happen do? Did you modify the brackets so they fit on the elevator between the cutout and back edge by trimming some material off the "nose" of the brackets? The brackets cannot hang off the back of the elevator at all becuase they will interfere with the travel of the elevator. Hanging and material beyond the cross-rib seems to be pointless as well. Thanks! Greg F. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 07, 1998
Subject: Re: I'm Done!
<< My heart rate is already up thinking about the first flights! I hope the 10 hours that I have put on a 601 UL will stand me in good stead. >> Congratulations, Alan! I look forward to be where you are hopefully before this time next year. I'm sure my heart rate would be up, too. This'll be a time to remember for the rest of your life... Dick (601-HDS, doing prep work for joining the rear fuse with center wing). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 07, 1998
Subject: Re: Steel Greasing
<< [Tony Gunn] Linseed oil may work well as a rust preventive, but be very careful with storage of oily rags. I had an example of spontaneous combustion with linseed oil soaked rags 20 years ago that almost burned my garage down. Even laying the rags out flat (to dry) on a cold concrete floor didn't provide enough cooling/ventilation to prevent combustion. I've talked to some firefighting types who say not to store them, but to go ahead and burn them after use so you know the hazard is gone. >> Thanks, Tony, for the info. I didn't know this oil was combustible. I did heat the oil inside a coffee can on the kitchen stove and got it to boiling, but the oil did not ignite (thankfully). I used paper towels for clean up and discarded them, and some are still in a garbage can. Would be interesting to see if I can ignite it. 8-)] Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 07, 1998
Subject: Re: new bldr
<< I,m new to site and just starting stab. Spars done. Starting to cleco ribs and noticed no consideration to needing shim between "outer" inner rib and spar, and all the ribs on top of rear spar due to no doublers at these locations. Do you add a shim or am I trying to be too precise here. >> Hi there! Add a shim only if the plans says to do so, or if the parts are not so precise that a shim is necessary. If in doubt, it's best to call Nick. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 07, 1998
Subject: Re: Rib Too Small
<< Are there any builders out there that could produce this rib to the correct dimensions? Has anyone else noticed this sort of issue? If so, did it make any difference during the skinning process? >> Don - When I did my stab, I used straps only near the rib rivet lines, and nothing in the wide center section. I also used two 2X2 beams, one near the top of the front spar towards the nose section and the other near the top of the rear spar (aids in keeping everything evenly pushed down). The bottom and top skin surface then acts as "stiffeners" to keep the stab nose nice and straight. You should have no troubles with your stab as long as you don't put pressure (strapping) in areas that have no ribs. Hope this helps. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 07, 1998
Subject: Re: Fuel
<< This seems like it could be an issue. Even though I am installing leading adge tanks for extended range I really don't want to haul fuel to and from the airpot. And an old aviators axiom I once read went something like this.....Number son....You can never use runway that is already behind you and number 2....You can never use fuel left behind. >> Hi Steve! Hate to say this, but hauling fuel is probably the way to go. I bought extended range tanks so I can get there and back without refueling. Also, I understand that the Rotax 912 can take 100LL, but it likes auto fuel better. I have been hauling fuel for my Rockwell Darter for the last 5 years and I don't mind it at all. Nice thing about the Zodiac is that it will take about half the fuel as the O-320 powered Darter, so I won't have to haul as much. Remember to ground your tanks to your car or truck when you fill 'em up at the gas station - I try to be extra careful, especially on dry days, because I don't want to be on the news... Have fun... Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Test
Test ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Jun 08, 1998
Subject: Re: Elevator
Greg The brackets you are talking about are I think the elevator horns. I got about 110 mm between the front of the elevator and the cut out. I noticed yesterday that on ZACs draft manual available from their web site the distance is shown as 110 top and 85 bottom. The really important thing is the position of the cable attachment holes in relation to the hinge. The plans call for 100 radius and this must be respected or you will get cable tension problems. There is also a 10mm dimension for the bottom horn hole ahead of hinge pivot. In the draft manual a template is shown and this dimension is different (12) and a further dimension is shown for the top horn hole. It is vital that you don't cut material off the front of your horns so that you can't achieve these positions for the cable attachment holes with adequate edge distance. That's what I did and had to make the horns again (0.063" is difficult to bend!). I suggest you trim the horns at the back then reshape as necessary. James Tannock Nottingham England 601HD outer wings done from kit Tail group done from plans Starting to build rear fuselage from plans S ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WmSH(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 08, 1998
Subject: Rudder Kit Question
Hi all, I'm working on the rudder kit and things are going very well, but I have a few new quy questions that are nagging at me during the process of building the rudder: 1. The rudder manual calls for 10mm edge distance when some of the ribs etc are not wide enough to provide a 10mm edge distance. Trying to make sure I have, as a minimum, 2xhole diameter for edge distance on the flanges that are not wide enough for 10mm, is this enough? 2. I missed the edge distance to the end of the tip rib when drilling the ribs through the rear skin, so I corrected it by drilling another hole with the proper 10mm edge distance, but now have an extra hole near the tip of the tip-rib trailing edge. Is this ok to continue with? 3. Extremely close on edge distance for one rivet on the rudder vertical spar, and drilled another hole below it with proper edge distance, however my short sightedness put the hole in a place that can't accept a rivet because it will interfere with the flange of a rib on the inside of the spar. Bottom line, will have a hole with no rivet on the spar. Anyone else have a similar problem or think that these two mistakes will cause problems? Welcome any and all inputs. Thanks Bill (working rudder starter kit) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Dent Removal
Date: Jun 08, 1998
Apparently while in storage something fell and hit my finished stabilizer. Put about an inch long by half inch wide by 1/8 to 1/4 inch deep dent in leading edge about halfway between two outermost nose ribs. There are no sharp creases in the dent so I'm hoping straightening it out won't be too difficult. I've thought of de-riveting the bottom side of the skin so I can pound it back out, but really don't want to do it that way. I don't really want to drill holes in leading edge either if I can help it. And needless to say replacing the skin is my least desired alternative. I could conceivably remove stab wing rib (I don't have the composite tips) and get to it that way. Anybody got any other bright ideas? Thanks, Tony Gunn, HDS, Houston 5.0.1458.49"> 1/8 to 1/4 inch deep dent in leading edge about halfway between two I'm hoping straightening it out won't be too skin so I can pound it back out, but really don't want to do it that ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)mail.jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Dent Removal
Tony Gunn wrote: > > Apparently while in storage something fell and hit my finished > stabilizer. Put about an inch long by half inch wide by 1/8 to 1/4 inch > deep dent in leading edge about halfway between two outermost nose ribs. > There are no sharp creases in the dent so I'm hoping straightening it > out won't be too difficult. > Anybody got any other bright ideas? > > Two come to mind. One, even though it seems strange at this juncture to think in this way, you could leave it alone, because: a trying to straighten it could very likely cause more damage and you'd end up replacing the whole damn skin b. you'd be surprised how unnoticeable it will be when you are done. c. trying to pound the dent out won't work, 'cause the skin is already stretched The second is to fix it with a good quality body fill, using proper preparation, etc, assuming you intend to paint the bird. I definitely would not try opening the stab to get at it. If that's the only blemish you have when you are done, you will be VERY fortunate. .016 is miserable that way. Regards, James Neely ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 1998
From: jpleroy(at)ssvec.org (Joanny Leroy)
Subject: Re: Dent Removal
> > Apparently while in storage something fell and hit my finished > > stabilizer. Put about an inch long by half inch wide by 1/8 to 1/4 inch > > deep dent in leading edge about halfway between two outermost nose ribs. > > There are no sharp creases in the dent so I'm hoping straightening it > > out won't be too difficult. > > Anybody got any other bright ideas? > > The second is to fix it with a good quality body fill, using proper preparation, > etc, assuming you intend to paint the bird. > I definitely would not try opening the stab to get at it. If that's the only > blemish you have when you are done, you will be VERY fortunate. .016 is > miserable that way. > Regards, > James Neely I got a small dent in my LE skin on the H-stab because I mishandled it. I had not closed the top skin yet, so I tried to push it out. WRONG!!! It made it worse. James Neely is right, the .016 is too thin to mess with. I plan on using "Bondo" body filler. Philippe Leroy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: Dent Removal
m> >Put about an inch long by half inch wide by 1/8 to 1/4 inch >deep dent in leading edge about halfway between two outermost nose ribs. I would fill it and use micro-ballons. This is an extremely light filler that you mix with things such as epoxy. It gives a very light fill. This stuff is available from Wicks or Aircraft spruce. Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Working rudder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ronbo135(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 08, 1998
Subject: Re: Dent Removal
If there are no cracks or sharp bends, I'd consider filling it with a lightweight filler. I've got a couple of minor spots with that treatment in store for them someday. Ron Spokane 601HDS/Subaru scratchbuilt/airframe 75% >>Apparently while in storage something fell and hit my finished stabilizer. Put about an inch long by half inch wide by 1/8 to 1/4 inch deep dent in leading edge about halfway between two outermost nose ribs. There are no sharp creases in the dent so I'm hoping straightening it out won't be too difficult. << ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Control cable window
Date: Jun 09, 1998
> > > > A word of caution on working behind the seats. The baggage floor > cross > piece 6-F-13-4 is really flimsy and will kink the first time you put > much > weight anywhere other than directly over the center support. > Alan/All, To solve this flimsy piece problem, I installed an L angle across the hole span of the front of the baggage area overlapping the 45 degree angle supplied. When viewing the assembly from the end it looks like this. > ==== > l \ > l \ > It really helped to stiffen this area. Maybe this will help those that have not completed this assembly yet. Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru McDonough, Ga. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Control cable window
Date: Jun 09, 1998
Well, the spacing really messed up on my drawing below. I will make some mods and send it again. Hope that it works this time. Jim Weston > > > > > > > > A word of caution on working behind the seats. The baggage floor > > cross > > piece 6-F-13-4 is really flimsy and will kink the first time you put > > much > > weight anywhere other than directly over the center support. > > > Alan/All, > > To solve this flimsy piece problem, I installed an L angle > across the hole span of the front of the baggage area overlapping the > 45 > degree angle supplied. When viewing the assembly from the end it > looks > like this. > > > ====== > > l \ > > l \ > > > It really helped to stiffen this area. > > Maybe this will help those that have not completed this assembly yet. > > Jim Weston > CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru > McDonough, Ga. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 09, 1998
Subject: Please Read! - List Downtime...
Listers, After many months of waiting, I will be at long last upgrading my Internet connectivity! Depending on the condition of my line, I could be getting as high as a 1.1Mb dedicated connection. At the same time, I will be moving all of the Matronics web pages, the RV and Zenith List web pages, and the Matronics FTP server over to a new and much faster server. All of the current hostnames will remain the same; however, the IP subnet will change and a DNS update will occur. After a DNS update, about 80% of the world will be able to communicate right away, with the remaining 20% figuring it out over a period of a week or so. So, what does this all really mean? Starting tomorrow, Wednesday June 10 well it goes, List messages may or may not be processed, and some messages will likely be lost. I would strongly recommend _not_ posting any messages and stable, I will post a messages to the Lists indicating that things are back online and DNS is at the 80% level. This will likely be late Wednesday or probably Thursday. Note that access to the Matronics Web and FTP sites will also be affected and may be unavailable until Thursday as well. Thank you for your patience during this period of transition. I'm confident that the new service will be noticable improvment in performance and reliability and since all of the computer systems providing the services will now be locally resident, administration should be far easier too! Look for an update soon! Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Rudder Leading Edge Skin
I am working on the rudder leading edge skin. The rudder assembly manual says to mark lines at 18mm from the rear edge of the skin. When you then slide the leading edge skin under the rear skin and line up these lines, you should get the 10 mm edge distance on the spar flange. When I install my leading egde skin under the rear skin, I have to push it back farther than the 18 mm line to get the front of the leading edge skin to push up against the top rib? It looks like I will have to trim the back of the leading edge about 15 mm to keep it from going way past the spar flange at the top. It looks pretty good at the lower (nose rib) end. This means I will have to make a diagonal trim of the edges of the leading edge skin. Does this sound normal? Also is there any triming to be done at this time on the bottom of the leading edge skin. It hangs down past the nose rib about 80 mm? Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 Working Rudder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joakim Birgersson" <joakim.birgersson(at)vetlanda.mail.telia.com>
Subject: New member
Date: Jun 10, 1998
Dear All, First let me introduce my self, I'm a private pilot with a 4 year old PPL and have already been bored with expenses of flying the PA28:s and C172:s. Member in EAA Chapter 222 Sweden since a couple of years. Have test flown an Europa last year and was impressed with the performance but also surprised of the high price and not very keen on composites. After endless nights with Kitplanes, Sport Aviation etc. Zodiac 601 HD seams to be good value for money - and a "real" airplane that also fits the Swedish climate ( big temperature differences, high humidity and lots of short grass fields) I have some thoughts that I would very much appreciate your input on; 1. Do any of you know of Zodiacs flying in Skandinavia / Northern Europe? 2. How high is the "optimistic-factor" on the stated buildtime 400h (kit) resp.1500h (scratch)? 3. Have anyone considered flaperons to improve the good STOL performance even more? 4. Is there any disadvantages with Avex blind rivets compared with solid ones? Are they used on CH2000 or any other certified aircraft? Guys in my local EAA Chapter have some lack of trust in blind rivets. Short lifelenght of airframe, vibration can reduce the friction between the surfaces etc. Please convince me that 601HD is the right plane! There's no 601 nor 701 in the Swedish register yet....... Thank's and best regards; joakim.birgersson(at)vetlanda.mail.telia.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Rudder Leading Edge Skin
Date: Jun 10, 1998
> Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Leading Edge Skin > Date: Wednesday, 10 June 1998 09:11 > > > I am working on the rudder leading edge skin. > > It looks like I will have to trim the back of the leading edge about 15 mm > to keep it from going way past the spar flange at the top. It looks pretty > good at the lower (nose rib) end. This means I will have to make a diagonal > trim of the edges of the leading edge skin. Does this sound normal? Answer, this happens. I did not trim it and left at places about 1-1 1/2in overlap and put in a second row of rivets at double spacing, I thought would help stiffen rudder. If I had to do it again would trim it, looks neater, but you really need access to shears to do it neatly, hand snips always produce a buckle. > Also is there any triming to be done at this time on the bottom of the > leading edge skin. It hangs down past the nose rib about 80 mm? Leave it, it has to be later cut to fit the fibreglass "Saddle". I left about 1 in or so and found it was not enough so had to rivet on a 1 in 0.018 extention and cover unsightly join with epoxy filler. Low cloud, drizzle, no flying, curses. Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Snips
I have been getting a slightly wavy edge when I have trimmed .016 aluminum with the hand snips. Is there any way to prevent this? Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Working Rudder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Snips
Date: Jun 09, 1998
Bill, If you make two cuts, one within about 1/8 inch of the cut line, then trim off the 1/8 inch, it comes out looking much nicer. Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear McDonough, Ga. > ---------- > From: Bill Morelli[SMTP:billvt(at)together.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 8:53 PM > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Snips > > > I have been getting a slightly wavy edge when I have trimmed .016 > aluminum > with the hand snips. Is there any way to prevent this? > > Bill Morelli > HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont > Working Rudder > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 1998
From: Charles Sonberg <cps(at)tisd.net>
Subject: Re: Snips
Bill Morelli wrote: > > I have been getting a slightly wavy edge when I have trimmed .016 > aluminum > with the hand snips. Is there any way to prevent this? > Bill, Try cutting thin strips till you get to within 1/4 inch before finale cut. you won't stress the skin this way. ( I prefer the yellow or straight wiss snips for this) Chuck (center wing) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 1998
From: Charles Sonberg <cps(at)tisd.net>
Subject: Re: New member
Joakim Birgersson wrote: > Dear All, > > First let me introduce my self, I'm a private pilot with a 4 year old > PPL > and have already been bored with expenses of flying the PA28:s and > C172:s. > Member in EAA Chapter 222 Sweden since a couple of years. > > Have test flown an Europa last year and was impressed with the > performance > but also surprised of the high price and not very keen on composites. > After > endless nights with Kitplanes, Sport Aviation etc. Zodiac 601 HD seams > to > be good value for money - and a "real" airplane that also fits the > Swedish > climate ( big temperature differences, high humidity and lots of short > > grass fields) I have some thoughts that I would very much appreciate > your > input on; > 1. Do any of you know of Zodiacs flying in Skandinavia / Northern > Europe? Look them up in the list of builder on Zenith web site > 2. How high is the "optimistic-factor" on the stated buildtime 400h > (kit) > resp.1500h > (scratch)? 500 hours looks about what I will have in mine (kit) > 3. Have anyone considered flaperons to improve the good STOL > performance > even more? No, when you start major mods you open a can of worms (the ones I flew did not seem to need them) > Guys in my local EAA Chapter have some lack of trust in blind rivets. > Short lifelenght > of airframe, vibration can reduce the friction between the surfaces > etc. > One fellows airplane that I flew sent some of the rivets to an > engineer friend at cessna, he reported back that the rivets seemed to > be more than adequate (to his surprise) > Please convince me that 601HD is the right plane! I'm able to build it and I'm a complete idiot. Chuck ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Snips
> >Bill, > >If you make two cuts, one within about 1/8 inch of the cut line, then >trim off the 1/8 inch, it comes out looking much nicer. > >Jim Weston +++++++ I'd second that, but with one caution... If you make the first cut taking off a big wide amount, you may still find that 1/8" won't remove all the distortion caused from the first cut. I know it sounds like a lot of extra work, but if you are really looking for ripple free edges, and you are taking off a really big amount to the final line, you may have to take off all but about 1", then make that cut around 1/8th or so, and then you'll find that the last cut will really be nice, UNLESS you've got a weird set of snips, or using the wrong one. Look at it this way, even having to do redundant cuts, I'd still rather be doing this than DEBURRING! Speaking of deburring, here's an ugly thought...I told there's somewhere around 9000 rivets, so there are around 9000 holes, but each of those holes goes through at least 2 pieces of metal, so now there are 4 sides to deburr for each hole drilled. Project that out and you have to debur around 36,000 hole/sides........ UGH ! Oh well, they come a little at a time, and I sure enjoy the building, so as they say in the movies "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" Soft landings. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 12, 1998
Subject: Matronics Back Online!
Listers, The Internet upgrade was a complete success! The connection wasn't up in time for a DNS update on Wednesday, and so DNS was updated early this morning (Thursday) and it appears that most servers around the Internet have been successfully updated. With the new connection, *all* Matronics network services are now run out of one location under my control and should provide a very stable environment. You should notice an improvment the the responsiveness of Matronics web pages and hopefully better turn around on messages posted to the Lists. Be sure to try out the new web server and let me know how the 'performance' feels. And now that the new web server is running, I will be bringing the all new, and significantly improved, Archive Search Engine online in just a few days! Beta test input has been very positive, and I think everyone will be very pleased with the new features and PERFORMANCE! Following the posting of this message, I will enable the Lists again and start posting the messages that were received during the Network upgrade. Best Regards, Matt Dralle RV-List and Zenith-List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Thilo.Kind(at)jp.clariant.com
Date: Jun 12, 1998
Subject: crosswind
Hi there, maybe somebody can answer my question: what is the maximum crosswind for take-off and landing, that the 601 HDS can handle? Thanks Thilo Kind ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 10, 1998
Subject: Re: Dent Removal
<< Apparently while in storage something fell and hit my finished stabilizer. Put about an inch long by half inch wide by 1/8 to 1/4 inch deep dent in leading edge about halfway between two outermost nose ribs. There are no sharp creases in the dent so I'm hoping straightening it out won't be too difficult. >> Hmmm... Can you reach the inside of the nose with a lond slender rod through the stab attach brackets? My stab is at the hangar, so it's hard to visualize, but if you can reach the dent that way (even if you have to cut material from the skin around the attach brackets, you can always rivet on a parch), that may help. Hope this helps... Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Snips
Date: Jun 10, 1998
Bill: Kit pieces are sheared with large equipment, so therefore have a much straighter edge than what you can cut manually. If one side of the piece you're installing has an edge that goes up under another piece (such as the top and bottom aft wing skins fitting under the nose skin) then do your cutting on that "covered" edge. Let the factory (straight) edge be the one that's exposed for everyone to see. I learned this the hard way on my right wing. I lined the good edge up where it should be on the spar and then marked and cut the aft edge. Done in reverse would have been much nicer looking. Tony Gunn > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Morelli [SMTP:billvt(at)together.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 7:53 PM > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Snips > > > I have been getting a slightly wavy edge when I have trimmed .016 > aluminum > with the hand snips. Is there any way to prevent this? > > Bill Morelli > HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont > Working Rudder > > > > > 5.0.1458.49"> equipment, so therefore have a much straighter edge than what you can edge that goes up under another piece (such as the top and bottom aft wing skins fitting under the nose skin) then do your cutting on that ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 10, 1998
Subject: Re: Rudder Leading Edge Skin
<< I am working on the rudder leading edge skin. The rudder assembly manual says to mark lines at 18mm from the rear edge of the skin. When you then slide the leading edge skin under the rear skin and line up these lines, you should get the 10 mm edge distance on the spar flange. >> If I remember correctly, I had to trim the bottom of the nose skin so it matches the bottom rib and also trim the inside edges of the nose skin. Regarding the nose skin, I pushed it between the rear skin and the spars, then drilled thru the pre-drilled holes on the rear skin (at that point, the rear skin was already drilled into the spar). Then I pulled the nose skin, marked 10mm from the line of holes and trimmed on the line. Be careful when working with the pre-bent nose skin - it wants to unbend so you have to figure a way to hold the skin together on the spar. Enjoy! Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 10, 1998
Subject: Re: Snips
<< I have been getting a slightly wavy edge when I have trimmed .016 aluminum with the hand snips. Is there any way to prevent this? >> Yes! My first snip job produced waves on the rear elevator cut-out. I learned later how to do it right: 1) Cut about 5 mm away from the intended cut line (cut on the part that will be removed). 2) Cut again about 1 mm from the intended line. Cut with the snips at a slight angle to the skin - it will make cutting easier and not produce waves. 3) Cut the third time right on the line, with the snip at the slight angle. The cut-out material will form into coils. Voila! The edge does not have waves! File the edge straight and a little above and below the edge (use fine file). You will produce a nice smooth edge to the touch. Practice on scraps, especially how to cut at an angle. You'll see what I mean... Now, my cut-outs are smo-o-o-oth... Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Orsborn, Tom" <Tom.Orsborn(at)COMPAQ.com>
Subject: Leading Edge Fuel Tanks - Gauges & Senders, Installation
Issues
Date: Jun 11, 1998
I have several questions related to installation of Zenith leading edge fuel tanks in the 601-HDS: 1. Are you pressure testing the tanks before installation? How? Are you using water or gasoline with air in the testing? To what pressur 2. What types and brands of sender units and gauges are you using? I read Leo Gates email on ordering auto units from J. C. Whitney - good info. Have you bench tested the units yet, Leo? 3. Has anyone used SkySport's capacitance units? Nick Heintz recommended them to me, but they're rather pricy - around $300 for dual tanks with a dual scale guage. 4. The fuel tank filler neck sticks up through the upper L.E. skin. How are you finishing off the hole? Adding any re-enforcing material around the hole? How about streamlining around the filler neck & cap? thanks tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: stability problems with CH701
Date: Jun 11, 1998
---------- > From: BARRY MAYNE <bazmay(at)ozemail.com.au> > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > > DO NOT ADD WEIGHT TO THE AFT END. > > It sounds like the tailplane is stalling on approach under idle power either > due to prop wash turbulance from the widmilling prop or possibly the C of G > is way out of wack. Barry: Why do you say do not add weight??? It looks like stall of upside down tail plane to me also but we are going to try to experiment with some sand bags back aft. The 701 gets off the ground really fast, climb rate nothing to be excited about, rattles a lot due to poor door attachments and a lot of flat metal without turtle deck. Makes a steep approach with flaperons down, but we flying in about 25 knots of wind so with slow cruise speed of 70-75 mph may not have been THAT steep. I undershot all the time but may have been wind factor. Lands reasonably short and has to be put down firmly which the Safari tires take, but without power on flair, bang goes the nose down and simply cannot be held up. C of G calculates out right. To be truthful, I liked the Fiesler Storch replica built by Nicolas Slevcev in Australia and available as kit, rather better, being rag and tube has no rattles, but a gynastic excercise to get into , front gear is about 6ft long. Only plane I have seen fly sideways!! Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Re: Snips
Bill Morelli wrote: > > > I have been getting a slightly wavy edge when I have trimmed .016 aluminum > with the hand snips. Is there any way to prevent this? > > Bill Morelli > HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont > Working Rudder I too often get this. There was a note recently about cutting properly to minimize it. As I recall the points mentioned were: 1/ make first rough cut to about 10?mm of edge. 2/ make final cut on the line (smaller waste piece rolls off easily and reduces wrinkle effect.) 3/ and of course ensure the proper green/red cutter is being used for the side the waste is on. Did I forget anything? HTH Grant Corriveau Montreal 601hds50p ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Speaking of deburring...
Fred Hulen wrote: > Speaking of deburring, here's an ugly thought...I told there's somewhere > around 9000 rivets, so there are around 9000 holes, but each of those holes > goes through at least 2 pieces of metal, so now there are 4 sides to deburr > for each hole drilled. Project that out and you have to debur around 36,000 > hole/sides........ UGH ! Oh well, they come a little at a time, and I sure > enjoy the building, so as they say in the movies "damn the torpedoes, full > speed ahead!" > > Soft landings. Fred Speaking of deburring... What are you using to debur? I haven't seen this discussed for a while. On the Zenair video they don't show much except one scene where the builder seems to be dragging a piece of a file along a row of holes - which certainly seems fast, but is it okay? Doesn't it scratch the material and perhaps NOT get the burrs? I've been using a larger sized drill bit to deburr hole-by-hole. It's large enough that it's easy on fingers, and it will deburr rather than taper the holes. But 36,000??? Grant Corriveau Montreal 601hds50% ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douglas G. Murray" <dgmurray(at)telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: Snips/ change to DEBURRING
Fred Hulen wrote: > > > > Speaking of deburring, here's an ugly thought...I told there's somewhere > around 9000 rivets, so there are around 9000 holes, but each of those holes > goes through at least 2 pieces of metal, so now there are 4 sides to deburr > for each hole drilled. Project that out and you have to debur around 36,000 > hole/sides........ UGH ! Oh well, they come a little at a time, and I sure > enjoy the building, so as they say in the movies "damn the torpedoes, full > speed ahead!" > ONLY 9000 blind rivets? You ought to try an RV aircraft. On the average about 13,500 solid rivets to drive. I figured out that with a minimum of two pieces to rivet and all the deburring on both sides of each piece, plus dimpling and countersinking, I will only have about 250,000 operations to finish the project. Metal aircraft are STILL the best to build! DGM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: vraned1(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Jun 10, 1998
Subject: Re: Snips
Bill, The advise you have been getting about cutting to 1/4 inch of the line, and then recutting is good. Also, you'll find you get more wave cutting in one direction than you do in the other. Experiment on scrap and you will see what I mean. I used a router for most of my straight cuts. One side of my 3 X 12 building table is perfectly (as I need) straight. I put a carbide laminate bit in my router and clamp (with wood over the aluminum) the metal to the table. The carbide bit goes through the aluminum (I've cut up to .063) like a hot knife through butter. One pass over the cut edge with a file and I have a straight, accurate cut with NO ripples. Good building, Randy Vranish ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Thilo.Kind(at)jp.clariant.com
Date: Jun 11, 1998
Subject: crosswind
Hi there, maybe somebody can answer my question: what is the maximum crosswind for take-off and landing, that the 601 HDS can handle? Thilo Kind ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 1998
From: Leo Gates <leogates(at)tooeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Fuel Tanks - Gauges & Senders, Installation
Issues Hi all: As the fuel sender is located on the inboard side of the leading edge tanks it is impossible to get absolutely accurate readings with a float type fuel gauge sender. This is because of the taper of the tank and wing dihedral. Maybe a capacitive type would be more accurate? I decided not to worry about accuracy - what I was concerned with is fuel remaining with 1/2, 1/4, and Empty on the gauge. So far I have installed a JC Whitney float type sender in the right tank. This took a bit of fiddling and bending to make it work. No big deal just some planning, sketching and bending. BTW I did not want the float to touch the bottom of the tank nor the top (wear?). The hole for the sender is not open, as the tanks come from ZAC. I started a hole with a drill and finished opening the hole with a dremel tool. I then cleaned out the tank with water with a touch of dish soap added. To quote Nick at ZAC, "There is nothing wrong with water." Calibrated the sender: 1. Mounted the tank across two saw hourses with wood uprights, C clamps, shim, and cargo straps so that the tank was set at the dihedral angle and rear vertical. 2. Installed two drain plugs. One in the bottom drain hole and the other in the fuel outlet hole. Closed the drain hole plug, added water until it started to exit the fuel outlet. This represented unusable fuel. Closed the fuel outlet plug and started adding measured water and observing the fuel gauge - hooked up of course. Results: Gauge: Just comming off Empty - .8 gal. US 1/4 - 2.6 gal. 1/2 - 4.63 gal. 3/4 - 8.1 gal. Full - 11 gal. Tank topped off at 11.7 gal. I suspect the left tank readings will differ - not a precision sender nor gauge. Leo Gates CH601 HDS Orsborn, Tom wrote: > > I have several questions related to installation of Zenith leading edge fuel > tanks in the 601-HDS: > > 1. Are you pressure testing the tanks before installation? How? Are > you using water or gasoline with air in the testing? To what pressur > 2. What types and brands of sender units and gauges are you using? I > read Leo Gates email on ordering auto units from J. C. Whitney - good info. > Have you bench tested the units yet, Leo? > 3. Has anyone used SkySport's capacitance units? Nick Heintz > recommended them to me, but they're rather pricy - around $300 for dual > tanks with a dual scale guage. > 4. The fuel tank filler neck sticks up through the upper L.E. skin. > How are you finishing off the hole? Adding any re-enforcing material around > the hole? How about streamlining around the filler neck & cap? > > thanks > > tom > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 12, 1998
Subject: Re: $$$ for the NEW LIST???
>-------------- >--> Message posted by: Louis Willig > >>Listers, >> >>The Internet upgrade was a complete success! The connection wasn't up in >>time for a DNS update on Wednesday, and so DNS was updated early this morning >>(Thursday) and it appears that most servers around the Internet have been >>successfully updated. > >Hey gang, > >The Cyberspace merchants are in love with Matt Dralle and RV's and gave Matt a >whole new 1.1 Mb dedicated connection for free. His new server doesn't cost a >penny. And Van is giving away Lycoming engines for free to the next 500 kit >purchasers. Ok, is the message coming through? Let's send some money. > >With 800 to 1000 people on the list, it shouldn't burden any one individual. >Those of us who can't wait to see what's on the RV list each day should do our >part now. The other RV listers who are just lurking or have recently joined... >your time will come and you, too, will see the value of the list and >understand >the time, energy and money Matt puts into the list. He has >never asked to be repaid (which is an endearing trait or a character >flaw... I can't figure out which). So it is our responsibility to keep >Matt's tanks full. > > >Matt's address is: > > Matt G. Dralle > PO Box 347 > Livermore, California 94551 > >Louis I. Willig >larywil(at)home.com >(610) 668-4964 >Philadelphia, PA >-------------- Louis and Listers, Thank you for your support! I have set up a Secure Transaction web page on the my server that will allow those who wish to make a contribution using a Credit Card a simple and easy way to do so. Once on the Contribution page, all data sent across the Internet (i.e. the credit card number) is encrypted for maximum card security. The URL for the RV-List Contribution Page is: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/contribution.html and the URL for the Zenith-List Contribution Page is: http://www.matronics.com/zenith-list/contribution.html Your contributions will go directly to support the continued operation and upgrade the Lists and systems that support it. Again, I want to thank everyone for their support. Your generosity and moral support is greatly appreciated! Enjoy! Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Snips
The carbide bit goes through the aluminum (I've cut up to .063) >like a hot knife through butter. One pass over the cut edge with a file and I have a straight, >accurate cut with NO ripples. >Randy Vranish ++++ Now that's one way I hadn't thought of.... but I've got one question. Taking out metal the width of the bit for the entire length, how do you trap all those metal particles from getting all over everthing and everywhere? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BARRY MAYNE <bazmay(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: stability problems CH701
Date: Jun 13, 1998
Hi Bernie, re your problems with th CH701 stability. I repeat, do not add weight. I misunderstood your problem, I originally thought your aircraft was stalling in the air, but now I see the problem is after landing. Just a couple of things worry me, you say the climb rate is nothing to get excited about. The alarm bells are ringing here as the climb rate for the CH 701 is excellent according to the Aussie agent here who has built a 701 and is more than pleased with the performance. the second thing is you report the Cof G being alright but you are now going to take it way outside the envelope by placing sand bags in the rear, the results of which are highly unpredictable and outright dangerous. Think seriously before taking this action, it may fly O.K. or it may be uncontrollable either on take off or on approach. Try flying an approach and landing without flaperons, the resultant cleaner flow over the tailplane may be enough to retain effect after touchdown. Your description of the aircraft suggests that a thorough checkout with factory support would be in order. The Storch replica is unbelievable, I saw it hover 50ft above the runway in a 20knot breeze, and land on the runway using about 15ft. good luck and be careful, Barry Mayne (mix up at the factory, my kit is still in the States, ordered in Feburary) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 1998
From: Jean-Pierre Deschenes <Jean-Pierre.Deschenes(at)pwc.ca>
Subject: Re: Speaking of deburring...
<357E6369.5A5E(at)total.net> <3581F12B.3A5A(at)pwc.com> Jean-Pierre Deschenes wrote: > > Grant Corriveau wrote: > > > > Speaking of deburring... > > What are you using to debur? I haven't seen this discussed for a while. On the Zenair video > > they don't show much except one scene where the builder seems to be dragging a piece of a file > > along a row of holes - which certainly seems fast, but is it okay? Doesn't it scratch the > > material and perhaps NOT get the burrs? > > > Hi > When I went to Zenair to build my Rudder in a weekend, they told me that > it was not THAT important to deburr, using the Big file was considered > enough. > > Jean-Pierre I meant to say the HOLES were not THAT important... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 1998
From: Jean-Pierre Deschenes <Jean-Pierre.Deschenes(at)pwc.ca>
Subject: Re: Speaking of deburring...
<357E6369.5A5E(at)total.net> Grant Corriveau wrote: > > Speaking of deburring... > What are you using to debur? I haven't seen this discussed for a while. On the Zenair video > they don't show much except one scene where the builder seems to be dragging a piece of a file > along a row of holes - which certainly seems fast, but is it okay? Doesn't it scratch the > material and perhaps NOT get the burrs? Hi When I went to Zenair to build my Rudder in a weekend, they told me that it was not THAT important to deburr, using the Big file was considered enough. Jean-Pierre ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of deburring...
> >Hi >When I went to Zenair to build my Rudder in a weekend, they told me that >it was not THAT important to deburr, using the Big file was considered >enough. >Jean-Pierre > ++++ Nicholas and I have talked before about various sub assemblies and he has specifically said things like "be sure to do a good job of deburring on that", etc. . I suspect that the comments you heard was in regard to not having to use additional methods to remove the burrs when you are able to use the file method on larger flat surfaces. When in doubt, ask your local EAA Technical Assistance Representative, that's what they are for. Having learned many pointers from my rep, they will assure you that deburring is absolutely imparitive to produce joined surfaces that acceptable to the FAA and won't get loose in the future. Like I said earlier, not my favorite operation, but gotta do it. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 1998
From: Bob Lee <rleebobl(at)sprynet.com>
Subject: bearings
I found this article in GOZUB, a UK builders group. Article follows: ======================================================= The use of engineering plastics in the Zodiac 601 HD By Alan Cozens Modern engineering plastic materials have very valuable properties when properly applied in light aircraft construction. This note deals only with materials such as nylon which are readily available from plastics distributors in most major cities. Some of these materials are particularly appropriate to the Zodiac, where for reasons of cost and weight many bearings are formed by providing a hole in the aluminium sheet structure so that a rotating or sliding steel tube may operate. This combination of materials is not normally used for engineering applications due to the tendency for aluminium alloys to gall or weld to steel, with attendant rapid wear. Aluminium also tends to 'load' with grit or dust where this is present, forming an abrasive matrix which will rapidly wear the steel member. Examples of aluminium/steel bearings on the Zodiac are the nose and main gear leg bearings and the control system torque tube bearings. These bearings are in flat sheet aluminium, usually 1/8in. It is a relatively simple mater to 'back up' these bearings with say 6mm nylon sheet with minimum weight and without structural risk, by bolting the additional bearing material to the existing sheet metal surface. Bearing life, quietness and smoothness of operation are dramatically improved. To study the point, consideration of the main control stick torque tube bearings is suggested. A more dramatic example is the main and nose gear where runway dust is an additional hazard, and my aircraft after only 200 hours of operation is showing unacceptable wear on the main gear leg bearings which were left 'plain'. By contrast the nose leg nylon bearings have little perceptible wear, despite very active operation during taxiing. The difficulty of repairing the worn out aluminium bearings once the aircraft is in service should be borne in mind. I would like to stress the importance of choosing the correct material from a bewildering range. In fact the number of possibilities drop dramatically when one considers the requirements for our application:- good structural strength good impact resistance good bearing qualities, particularly resistance to abrasion resilience to 'loading' with grit and dust total resistance to hydrocarbons e.g. oil, Avgas, etc reasonably easy to machine and cut There are possibly only 3 contenders that are widely available, and reasonably cheap. These are in my order of preference, nylon, fabric based phenolic (example-'Tufnol') and acetal (example-'Delrin'). There are various grades and types of these 3 but they are all suitable. Nylon 6.6 stands head and shoulders above the others, although its very abrasion resistance means cutting is more difficult. It is also available in a molybdenum disulphide filled grade, making lubrication unnecessary in most applications. Note none can operate above about 80C, nor are they suitable for high speed heavy load applications, as meltdown can occur! Do not forget PFA Engineering modification approval will be required in the UK, but approved drawings are available from the writer. Suppliers usually have offcuts available, and for 20 I bought enough nylon for 2 aircraft. However a word of caution on offcuts - you must know exactly the material and grade being offered - a good supplier maintains this as a routine. ========================================================== Article end. How big of a wear problem do the landing gear have? Any comments out there? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: stability problems CH701
Date: Jun 13, 1998
> To: BARRY MAYNE > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: stability problems CH701 Says > re your problems with th CH701 stability. > > I repeat, do not add weight. I misunderstood your problem, I originally > thought your aircraft was stalling in the air, but now I see the problem is > after landing. After flare, not landing! >Just a couple of things worry me, you say the climb rate is > nothing to get excited about. The alarm bells are ringing here as the climb > rate for the CH 701 is excellent according to the Aussie agent here who has > built a 701 and is more than pleased with the performance. What is "excellent"? It was about same as for 601, about 6-700fpm with two up, apparently up to 1000fpm with one. However, with slots, flaps, high-lift wings etc I had expected rather better. > the second thing > is you report the Cof G being alright but you are now going to take it way > outside the envelope by placing sand bags in the rear, the results of which > are highly unpredictable and outright dangerous. Think seriously before > taking this action, it may fly O.K. or it may be uncontrollable either on > take off or on approach. We aint gunna put in a couple of hundred pound bags, maybe 10-20 lb or so. Can always keep the speed up and fly her onto the ground. If this puts her out of balance and takes a lot of trim to correct then this is wrong approach. I wonder if Sebastien & Co have ever tried her with a symetrical tail plane? I do wish designer would experiment with alternatives a bit more, the upside-down tail plane will certainly pull her down very quickly for takeoff, but take-off in my view takeoff is always secondary to the landing roll problem Incidentally, the front axle needs to be replaced with a solid machined one, it is same weight as for 601 but with safari tires, has about twice the span. Friend Neil has already had his bent when a 10,000hr pilot lost it on flare and did not react when nose went down and Neil was screaming "Power,Power!" > Try flying an approach and landing without > flaperons, the resultant cleaner flow over the tailplane may be enough to > retain effect after touchdown. Will suggest this, but flaperons should not disturb airflow over canopy gap which is the vital bit. Have been over it with tape and level and is well within factory specs, ie about a 1/16in for wing tip-tail alignment vs factory spec of an inch or two. > The Storch replica is unbelievable, I saw it hover 50ft above the runway in > a 20knot breeze, and land on the runway using about 15ft. Isn't it but? I found it stalled at 17 knots, (just a gentle sink). I asked Slepcev why the odd pick up the tail to horizontal on takeoff and then the step into the air, he said that it picks up speed and gives cleaner airflow and faster takeoff than trying to force it into air with tail down. Haven't quite worked out how he makes it fly sideways but he keeps on enough power to keep airflow over inner wing. Now if only it had a top speed equal to the 601 it would be QUITE a plane! Thanks for comment. Still bloody raining. DV & WP will fly next week. Bernie G ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Flange Edge Distance
A while back Don Honabach asked about edge distance on the radius side of a flange and I don't recall any responses. I have the same question. Some rib flanges are not 20mm wide so if you keep a 10 mm distance from the edge, you will of course be closer than 10 mm to the radius. I think Don's question is, is there a spec. on how close you can be to a radius? It seems to me that as long as you do not drill right on the radius, being close to the radius is not really near an edge so it shouldn't be a problem? Any thoughts? Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Working rudder ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Rudder Nose Skin
Is everyone adding rivets to where the nose skin wraps around the tip rib. There is not much of a flange there with the crimps in the way. The rudder manual doesn't show rivets on the nose skin / tip rib but drawing 6-T-5 does. I might be able to fit 1 rivet between the spar and the first crimp on the tip rib. The flange there is only about 16 mm wide. Thanks, Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Working Rudder (Still!!) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 1998
From: Leo Gates <leogates(at)tooeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Rudder Nose Skin
Bill Morelli wrote: > > Is everyone adding rivets to where the nose skin wraps around the tip rib. > There is not much of a flange there with the crimps in the way. The rudder > manual doesn't show rivets on the nose skin / tip rib but drawing 6-T-5 does. My rudder, built at the factory workshop, has no rivets in that location. Leo Gates Building outer wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 1998
From: Charles Sonberg <cps(at)tisd.net>
Subject: Nylon Bearings
I'm at the stage that I could put bearing material on the landing gear. 1) do I use 1/4 inch nylon 2) do I mount it both upper and lower 3) Where do I put the material The upper and lower mains seem fairly simple, but the nose gear I'm at a bit of a loss Chuck ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 1998
From: Charles Sonberg <cps(at)tisd.net>
Subject: Re: zenith list
If you enjoy this list there is a simple way to help keep it online. If we all contribute a couple of bucks (money well spent) it will be assured. You may use the new Secure Transaction web page which encrypts data going across the Internet. The URL for the web page is: > http://www.matronics.com/zenith-list/contribution.html Chuck (center wing, waiting on a few more clecoes) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Test
This is a test, I haven't seen any messages for over 12 hours which is unusual. Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Test
> >This is a test, I haven't seen any messages for over 12 hours which is >unusual. >Bill +++++ I know what you mean Bill, I did the same "test" last week, just to make sure the system was still running, or that I hadn't been dropped off the list. Weird isn't it? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: bearings
Bob Lee wrote: > The use of engineering plastics in the Zodiac 601 HD > > How big of a wear problem do the landing gear have? Any comments out > there? I have seen a lot of wear on the nose gear on CH701 in France, especially on dirt strips. I decided, at the very beginning of the building to replace the alum bearings with nylon machined from a 1" thick plate (from RS Components, a UK dealer). I changed the bearings on the torque tube, the flaperon mixer and of course the nose gear (where I left the full 1" thickness). Excuse me, but I won't mount aluminium / steel bearings even on my wheelbarrow. Claude ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com>
Date: Jun 14, 1998
Subject: It's quiet out there...
Hello, guys If this weekend the weather elsewhere is as miserable as in Montreal, I would guess people are riveting away... Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: stability problems CH701
Bernie Gunn wrote: > I wonder if Sebastien & Co have ever tried her with a symetrical > tail plane? I do wish designer would experiment with alternatives a bit > more, the upside-down tail plane will certainly pull her down very quickly > for takeoff, but take-off in my view takeoff is always secondary to the > landing roll problem Hi Bernie. Sebastien may be not (the 701 is for Zenair a thing of the past). But I.C.P., Via Torino 12, 14020 Polv Massaia, Italy made a copycat of the 701, (named Amigo) except a bit more span and a symetrical tailplane. It flies the same (takeoff, climb rate, flare), except you need less strength on the stick for climbing (it seemed to me, at least). I did not checked the slow speeds with flaps however. Here, the instructors forbid the students to land the 701 with flaps and avoid to do it themselves. Three guys in France, sometimes, land with full flaps but always with somewhat of power, never with the engine idle. If this can help... > Incidentally, the front axle needs to be replaced with a solid machined > one, it is same weight as for 601 but with safari tires, has about twice > the span. Friend Neil has already had his bent when a 10,000hr pilot lost > it on flare and did not react when nose went down and Neil was screaming > "Power,Power!" Oh yes, and not only this axle. A friend in Nmes bent the whole fuselage on his maiden flight because of this axle. I'll give later a list of mods I made after bad things occured to some others 701s. Claude. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1998
From: Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Nylon Bearings
Charles Sonberg wrote: > > I'm at the stage that I could put bearing material on the landing gear. > 1) do I use 1/4 inch nylon No, at lest 1/2", best 1". > 2) do I mount it both upper and lower Yes > 3) Where do I put the material Where you can. Claude ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1998
From: Craig Cousins <cousins(at)cujo2.icom.ca>
Subject: Test Flight
Well guys: The time finally arrived. I had my final inspection of the CH300 on Saturday morning. The SNAG sheet was short (mostly placards) and I completed the corrections in the afternoon. Went to the inspectors place on Saturday evening with the completed SNAG sheet and was give the official flight authority. Sunday morning arrived with fog. Started lifting about 11:00 am. Didn't sleep the night before so I thought I'd go home and catch a few winks while the clouds hit the positive side of the VSI. After lunch, the whole gang came to the airport (wife, kids, parents, dog, etc.) to watch the maiden flight. I really would have been more comfortable if they had of stayed at home for this one. Oh well. Having done many high speed runs down the runway the previous week, I knew that the bird was ready to fly (I'm not so sure about the pilot). The temp was about 87 F outside and 95 F on the inside and I was sweating buckets (not because of the heat). I taxied out and took position on 04. Winds were just about "dead" calm (bad word to use on the test flight). I throttled her up and TAZ picked up quickly to 50 mph indicated. At this point she is very light on the gear. She lifted herself and picked up to 70. I applied very slight backpressure but mostly let her find her own comfortable climb out speed. I was watching the gauges very intently. Everything stayed in the green. I stayed at 100% power until I was at 2500 asl. Still everything stayed green. I trimmed for cruise and let the speed build up. Pulled the power back (to about 60%) and was reading about 110 mph (I have no idea how accurate the airspeed indicator is. Will have to wait for a few GPS runs to confirm). I flew around for a while at cruise. Was very surprised how stiff the stick is in the CH300 compared to my last plane (or a Cessna). After I was sure that everything was OK, I slowed for a couple of power off stalls. No problem, straight ahead with a good warning buffet on the tail before the actual stall. The airspeed was showing between 40 and 50 mph on the stall which should be about right. That being done, I throttled up and put her through a few steep turns and just played around a bit to get the feel. I was listening to the radio and after the traffic cleared, I entered the downwind for 04. Slowed to 80 and made a no-flaps approach. Touchdown was around 60 (a bit hot) about 1/3 down the runway (OK - not a textbook stall landing but good enough for the first one). I pulled off the runway and taxied back on the grass taxiway. Couldn't wait to open the canopy and get the blast of air from the prop. Pulled up by the fuel pumps and shut her down. I figured by this time that I would be very relaxed but I was quite surprised that my hands were still shaking. So, it went quite well. Some very minor rigging adjustments to be done and I must relocate my vaccuum venturi as it is not pulling sufficient vaccuum. BTW, if anyone is considering one of the vertical compass cards, I have heard very bad reports about them in the past and now I can say that mine is going in the trash. These things are just about impossible to calibrate and they change direction based on the frequency of your engine vibration (ie: want to point north, increase power, for south, decrease power). Well, that's another Zenair in the air. Just 24.5 more hours to fly off before I can release the 25 mile tether. Keep building guys but take your time. They will all get airborne eventually. Cheers Craig _|_ Craig Cousins ___(o)___ / \ C-FTAZ Check out the CH300 builders site at: http://www.icom.ca/~cousins/ch300/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Test Flight
>Well, that's another Zenair in the air. Just 24.5 more hours to fly off >before I can release the 25 mile tether. Keep building guys but take your time. They will all get airborne eventually. > >Cheers > >Craig ***** CONGRATULATIONS CRAIG !!!! ***** Another Zenith has flown from the nest... so to say. That was exciting just reading about it! If you were close by, I'd shake your hand and pat ya on the back. Thanks for sharing that special day with us. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Payson" <payce(at)niagara.com>
Subject: Re: Test Flight
Date: Jun 14, 1998
Craig: Way to go. Glad everything went well. Keep us informed as you progress through the next 24.5 hours. I know if it were me it would take less than a week to get those hours flown off. I also heard that the vertical card compasses were junk. Thanks for the confirmation. Had my pre-cover 2 weeks ago. 1 questionable rivet but after using a guage on it found it was within tolerances. I gave it a couple of extra wacks just to keep the inspector happy. Precover was not an unpleasant experience. Now forging ahead toward the final. Then it's my turn to sweat bullets. D. R. Payson (C-GDRP) neat huh? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Test Flight
Date: Jun 15, 1998
---------- > From: Craig Cousins <cousins(at)cujo2.icom.ca> > > Congratulations of the new baby!!! Am glad you are not one of those who hand the first flight on to some other poor goop, it always seems to me that if anything were to go wrong, the builder should be the one in the hot seat. Am as pleased as you are that all went well, though I would not have though she would be stiff to control, any expanation? Keep us in touch with later experience, please pass my regards on to your wife and family and tell them they are to be admired for their obvious support. Cheers Bernie Gunn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Jun 15, 1998
Subject: Nylon Bearings
> I'm at the stage that I could put bearing material on the landing gear. > 1) do I use 1/4 inch nylon > 2) do I mount it both upper and lower > 3) Where do I put the material > The upper and lower mains seem fairly simple, but the nose gear I'm at a > bit of a loss Use 1/4" (or thicker, say 8mm) Nylon 66 plate for upper and lower bearings. I suggest you attach them with bolts and design them for easy replacement. As you say, its easy to see where to bolt additional nylon bearings against the existing top and bottom bearings for the main gear. However the main wear point that Alan Cozens found in the the main gear was the sliders not the top and bottom bearings. The steel cross-tube moving up and down between the sliders caused serious wear to the sliders which is difficult to correct once centre wing is built, and allows the main wheels to pivot. I suspect that a little initial clearance causes hammering which rapidly increases the play. Alan has put in full length nylon plates attached to the sliders. It should also be possible instead to use cylindrical 3/4" diameter nylon bushes with smaller diameter cross-tubes so there is no metal to metal contact. For the nose gear (having seen Alan's drawings) I am bolting a square nylon plate with central 2" hole for the leg (using four AN3s) to the underside of the existing top bearing, having omitted some of the rivets and made the hole in the Al slightly oversize. For the bottom two overlapping half bearings are made from nylon and bolted to the existing Al plates in a nylon/Al sandwich. James Tannock Nottingham England 601HD outer wings done from kit Tail group done from plans Starting to build rear fuselage from plans S ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 1998
From: Andrew SanClemente <an_sanclemente(at)ordertrust.com>
Subject: Wheel Axels
Hi, could anyone give me the drill size for the axel holes in the wheel forks on the 601HDS with Disk Brakes? I couldn't find this information in any documentation from Zenith and would rather not go off a mic'ed value. Thanks - Andrew an_sanclemente(at)ordertrust.com ansancle(at)ssdev.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Orsborn, Tom" <Tom.Orsborn(at)COMPAQ.com>
Subject: It's quiet out there...
Date: Jun 15, 1998
Sweating rivets, you might say, here in Houston. Just enjoying the last few days of Spring - clear skies yesterday, 102 degrees F at 5:00PM, 112 degrees in the hangar in the shade! tom Working on right outboard wing leading edge skin and fuel tank. -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Sa [SMTP:wings(at)mail.axess.com] Sent: Sunday, June 14, 1998 3:40 PM To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: It's quiet out there... Hello, guys If this weekend the weather elsewhere is as miserable as in Montreal, I would guess people are riveting away... Carlos Bernie. Sebastien may be not (the 701 is for Zenair a thing of the past). But I.C.P., Via Torino 12, 14020 Polv Massaia, Italy made a copycat of the 701, (named Amigo) except a bit more span and a symetrical tailplane. It flies the same (takeoff, climb rate, flare), except you need less strength on the stick for climbing (it seemed to me, at least). I did not checked the slow speeds with flaps however. Here, the instructors forbid the students to land the 701 with flaps and avoid to do it themselves. Three guys in France, sometimes, land with full flaps but always with somewhat of power, never with the engine idle. If this can help... > Incidentally, the front axle needs to be replaced with a solid machined > one, it is same weight as for 601 but with safari tires, has about twice > the span. Friend Neil has already had his bent when a 10,000hr pilot lost > it on flare and did not react when nose went down and Neil was screaming > "Power,Power!" Oh yes, and not only this axle. A friend in Nmes bent the whole fuselage on his maiden flight because of this axle. I'll give later a list of mods I made after bad things occured to some others 701s. Claude ================ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Schemmel, Grant" <Schemmel(at)utmc.utc.com>
Subject: Test Flight
Date: Jun 15, 1998
Congratulations Craig! Sounds like you did a great job. Hope mine goes as well, but mucho months to go yet! Grant Schemmel Penrose, CO >-----Original Message----- >From: Craig Cousins [SMTP:cousins(at)cujo2.icom.ca] >Sent: Sunday, June 14, 1998 5:04 PM >To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Test Flight > > >Well guys: > >The time finally arrived. I had my final inspection of the CH300 on >Saturday morning. The SNAG sheet was short (mostly placards) and I >completed the corrections in the afternoon. Went to the inspectors place >on Saturday evening with the completed SNAG sheet and was give the official >flight authority. > >Sunday morning arrived with fog. Started lifting about 11:00 am. Didn't >sleep the night before so I thought I'd go home and catch a few winks while >the clouds hit the positive side of the VSI. > >After lunch, the whole gang came to the airport (wife, kids, parents, dog, >etc.) to watch the maiden flight. I really would have been more >comfortable if they had of stayed at home for this one. Oh well. > >Having done many high speed runs down the runway the previous week, I knew >that the bird was ready to fly (I'm not so sure about the pilot). > >The temp was about 87 F outside and 95 F on the inside and I was sweating >buckets (not because of the heat). I taxied out and took position on 04. >Winds were just about "dead" calm (bad word to use on the test flight). > >I throttled her up and TAZ picked up quickly to 50 mph indicated. At this >point she is very light on the gear. She lifted herself and picked up to >70. I applied very slight backpressure but mostly let her find her own >comfortable climb out speed. I was watching the gauges very intently. >Everything stayed in the green. I stayed at 100% power until I was at 2500 >asl. Still everything stayed green. I trimmed for cruise and let the >speed build up. Pulled the power back (to about 60%) and was reading about >110 mph (I have no idea how accurate the airspeed indicator is. Will have >to wait for a few GPS runs to confirm). > >I flew around for a while at cruise. Was very surprised how stiff the >stick is in the CH300 compared to my last plane (or a Cessna). After I was >sure that everything was OK, I slowed for a couple of power off stalls. No >problem, straight ahead with a good warning buffet on the tail before the >actual stall. The airspeed was showing between 40 and 50 mph on the stall >which should be about right. > >That being done, I throttled up and put her through a few steep turns and >just played around a bit to get the feel. > >I was listening to the radio and after the traffic cleared, I entered the >downwind for 04. Slowed to 80 and made a no-flaps approach. Touchdown was >around 60 (a bit hot) about 1/3 down the runway (OK - not a textbook stall >landing but good enough for the first one). > >I pulled off the runway and taxied back on the grass taxiway. Couldn't >wait to open the canopy and get the blast of air from the prop. Pulled up >by the fuel pumps and shut her down. I figured by this time that I would >be very relaxed but I was quite surprised that my hands were still shaking. > >So, it went quite well. Some very minor rigging adjustments to be done and >I must relocate my vaccuum venturi as it is not pulling sufficient vaccuum. > >BTW, if anyone is considering one of the vertical compass cards, I have >heard very bad reports about them in the past and now I can say that mine >is going in the trash. These things are just about impossible to calibrate >and they change direction based on the frequency of your engine vibration >(ie: want to point north, increase power, for south, decrease power). > >Well, that's another Zenair in the air. Just 24.5 more hours to fly off >before I can release the 25 mile tether. > >Keep building guys but take your time. They will all get airborne >eventually. > >Cheers > >Craig > > _|_ Craig Cousins >___(o)___ > / \ C-FTAZ > >Check out the CH300 builders site at: > >http://www.icom.ca/~cousins/ch300/ > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 1998
From: Craig Cousins <cousins(at)cujo2.icom.ca>
Subject: CH300
Thanks everyone for the congratulatory messages. Now comes the fun part of fine tuning the bird. Bernie: The stick forces in the CH200, 250 and 300 are quite high as compared to many commercially built planes. I guess that's why Chris says your stick should be long enought to reach the same height as the upper longerons. This would be quite a long stick. Mine is somewhat shorter but I am in the process of fabricating a "V" stick which should take some of the workload off my right arm. Cheers guys - keep building Craig _|_ Craig Cousins ___(o)___ / \ C-FTAZ Check out the CH300 builders site at: http://www.icom.ca/~cousins/ch300/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: My brain hurts...
Date: Jun 15, 1998
Getting ready to start the 601HDS outboard wings and was reviewing the PDF instruction file. In the section that refers to preparing and drilling the REAR ZEE the instructions say to install the SPLICE PLATE with a 123mm overlap. It also says to check your alignment and make sure that rib #6 is 100mm in from I/B REAR ZEE. Simply calculations (123mm - 24mm =3D 99mm) indicate it should be at 99mm. Which one is correct? Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS - S/N 6-3770 P.S. Please keep comments about not building a jet plane ... I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW. was the REAR ZEE the instructions say to install the SPLICE PLATE with a 123mm overlap. It also says to check your alignment and make sure that rib #6 is 100mm in from I/B REAR ZEE. Simply calculations (123mm - 24mm =3D 99mm) indicate it should be at jet plane ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 15, 1998
Subject: Matronics Plagued w/ Power Outages...
Listers, We have had no less than *3* power outages here tonight! On the third time, the Matronics web server didn't come back too happy and is reporting disk errors. I'm looking at that right now and hope to have it back online in an hour or so... Longer if I have to do any rebuilding or restoring... (ack, UNIX just really hates power-off shutdowns...) The Matronics *mail* server machine is back up now, running fine, and it is forwarding mail. Sorry for the problems tonight... Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 15, 1998
Subject: Matronics Web Server Back Online...
The Matronics Web Server is back online! No major problems. Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Thilo.Kind(at)jp.clariant.com
Date: Jun 16, 1998
Subject: Delaware
Hi there, is somebody in Delaware or neighbourhood flying, building or planning to build a Zodiac 601 HD or HDS? It would be nice, if you can send me an e-mail. Thilo Kind ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jun 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Flange Edge Distance
Hello Bill! > A while back Don Honabach asked about edge distance on the radius side of a > flange and I don't recall any responses. > I have the same question. Some rib flanges are not 20mm wide so if you keep > a 10 mm distance from the edge, you will of course be closer than 10 mm to > the radius. > > I think Don's question is, is there a spec. on how close you can be to a > radius? When I was assembling my wing kit at SnF under the guidance of Zenair, we ran into this too. They indicated that the critical distance is the distance to the edge of the flange, and that you could be closer to the radius of the bend as long as you aren't close enough to distort the bend. > It seems to me that as long as you do not drill right on the radius, being > close to the radius is not really near an edge so it shouldn't be a > problem? Any thoughts? You are absolutely correct. I had one nose rib where I got close to the radius and my heart stopped. But they looked at it and "ok'd" it. No pulling the radius out of round, so it was ok. > Bill Morelli > HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont > Working rudder Good luck and keep building! James Brigman ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 1998
From: Tom Decker <tdecker(at)spectra.net>
Subject: Re: My brain hurts...
Don , Go with the 99mm it won't cause a problem . The difference is only 1mm or .039" This amount is not enough to throw things off . ......Tom Decker >Getting ready to start the 601HDS outboard wings and was reviewing the >PDF instruction file. > >In the section that refers to preparing and drilling the REAR ZEE the >instructions say to install the SPLICE PLATE with a 123mm overlap. It >also says to check your alignment and make sure that rib #6 is 100mm in >from I/B REAR ZEE. Simply calculations (123mm - 24mm =3D 99mm) indicate >it should be at 99mm. > >Which one is correct? > > >Don Honabach >Tempe, AZ >601HDS - S/N 6-3770 > >P.S. Please keep comments about not building a jet plane ... I KNOW I >KNOW I KNOW. > > > >was >the REAR >ZEE the instructions say to install the SPLICE PLATE with a 123mm >overlap. It >also says to check your alignment and make sure that rib #6 is 100mm in >from I/B >REAR ZEE. Simply calculations (123mm - 24mm =3D 99mm) indicate it should >be at >jet plane > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Zenith Aircraft Company" <info(at)zenithair.com>
Date: Jun 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Delaware
Thanks for your message to Zenith Aircraft Company. You wrote us: > is somebody in Delaware or neighbourhood flying, building or planning to > build a Zodiac 601 HD or HDS? It would be nice, if you can send me an > e-mail. For a list of builders in your area, please email us the following: 1. Your mail address and telephone number 2. Aircraft Model 3. Area: List states, if different than your home state. We will then mail you a list of area builders. Please don't hesitate to contact us should you require any additional information and visit our ZODIAC web site at http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac Make sure to read our Frequently Asked Questions page for answers to common questions about building the ZODIAC (http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-qa.html) If you don't already have a copy of our complete Information Kit, I urge you to order your copy - it contains over 45 pages of detailed information, photos and illustrations about building your own ZODIAC kit aircraft. The $35 kit also includes a professional Demo Video. To order you copy, call Linda @ 573) 581-9000 (Mon-Fri 8-5 central) or fax 573-581-0011 with credit card info. All of us at Zenith Aircraft Company look forward to the opportunity of serving you as our newest ZODIAC builder. Please contact us should you require any additional information. Regards, Zenith Aircraft Company info(at)zenithair.com http://www.zenithair.com (573) 581-9000 (Mon-Fri, 8-5 Central) (573) 581-0011 Fax Write us at: Zenith Aircraft Company Mexico Memorial Airport, PO Box 650 Mexico, Missouri 65265-0650 USA Zenair: Quality Light Aircraft Since 1974 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WmSH(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 16, 1998
Subject: Re: Flange Edge Distance
<< > It seems to me that as long as you do not drill right on the radius, being > close to the radius is not really near an edge so it shouldn't be a > problem? Any thoughts? You are absolutely correct. I had one nose rib where I got close to the radius and my heart stopped. But they looked at it and "ok'd" it. No pulling the radius out of round, so it was ok. >> OK folks, now I'm really confused. I was also told while working on the rudder kit to center the rivet hole on the flanges that are less than 20mm wide (from a previous question I asked on the list), and so long as you maintained the absolute minimum of 2 times the diameter of the hole (rudder kit instructions say 2 X the hole diameter in minimum acceptable edge distance), things were ok. Which is correct? Bill Hickman (finished rudder starter kit) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Flange Edge Distance
Date: Jun 16, 1998
>rudder kit to center the rivet hole on the flanges that are less than 20mm >wide (from a previous question I asked on the list), and so long as you >maintained the absolute minimum of 2 times the diameter of the hole (rudder >kit instructions say 2 X the hole diameter in minimum acceptable edge >distance), things were ok. Which is correct? > >Bill Hickman (finished rudder starter kit) > Bill, This is the way I understand rivet spacing (at least on the ribs): 2x the hole diameter is minimum acceptable edge distance (3x being preferred) to the flange edge (the non-bent side). You can have your rivet hole literally right up against the tangent line of the rib flange bend, but if you cross the tangent line then most likely warpage will occur which is a no-no. The hand drawn flange centerlines are used as a guide to keep your rivet holes within the above two ranges. Interestingly, ZAC has indicated that if you can't keep edge distance (like when installing the piano hinges, that it is more important to make sure your edge distance on the thinner material is proper and if the edge distance on the thicker material is off slightly that this is no big deal. In short, when installing the piano hinges, okay to be a little short on the hinge, but the skin should be within tolerances. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Stabilizer Tips
I will be starting on the stabilizer next (tomorrow). I was looking at the fiberglass tips and I am concerned about the large difference in the two. They are both 770 mm long but the height ( as it would be mounted on the stab) is 90 mm on one and the other is only 80 mm. Looking at drawing 6-T-1-1, the tip rib is 89.7 mm at it's widest. So it looks like the 90 mm fiberglass tip is correct. The 80 mm one seems way too small. Are there ribs that go inside the fiberglass tips that would force the 80 mm to 90 mm? If not, I'm afraid that the tip will be pulling in on the skin and distorting it. Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3789 - Vermont Rudder Done - Starting Stab ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BrownTool(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 17, 1998
Subject: Air Tool Sale - SIOUX Air Drills
Now through July 15th, our SIOUX Air Drills Model 1450HP (1/4" Chuck) and Model 1454HP (3/8" Chuck) are on sale for only $135.00 !! Both of these drills list in our 1998 catalog for $169.95, so you save $34.95 ! These drills are industrial quality and of course they are MADE IN THE USA! You may view a picture of these drills on our on-line catalog on the "SPECIALS" page at: http://www.browntool.com While you are there, visit our "NEW PRODUCTS" page and check out our new Hydraulic Riveter / Nutsetter which installs CHERRYMAX Blind Rivets as well as RIVNUTS (It will also install standard blind POP rivets and Nutplate "pull- thru" rivets.) Also check out our fastener organizer / rivet tray which sells for only $12.95. Thanks for your time, this message will not be re-posted. Michael Brown Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co. 5700 N. Rockwell, Building Two, Suite E Bethany, OK 73008 1-800-587-3883 405-495-4991 FAX 405-495-4992 BrownTool(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Nylon Bearings
Date: Jun 17, 1998
---------- > From: James Tannock <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk> > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Nylon Bearings > Date: Monday, 15 June 1998 22:12 > > > > I'm at the stage that I could put bearing material on the landing gear. > > 1) do I use 1/4 inch nylon > > 2) do I mount it both upper and lower > > 3) Where do I put the material > > The upper and lower mains seem fairly simple, but the nose gear I'm at a > > bit of a loss > > Use 1/4" (or thicker, say 8mm) Nylon 66 plate for upper and lower > bearings. I suggest you attach them with bolts and design them for > easy replacement. > > As you say, its easy to see where to bolt additional nylon bearings > against the existing top and bottom bearings for the main gear. > > However the main wear point that Alan Cozens found in the the main > gear was the sliders not the top and bottom bearings. The steel > cross-tube moving up and down between the sliders caused serious > wear to the sliders which is difficult to correct once centre wing > is built, and allows the main wheels to pivot. I suspect that a > little initial clearance causes hammering which rapidly increases > the play. Alan has put in full length nylon plates attached to the > sliders. It should also be possible instead to use cylindrical 3/4" > diameter nylon bushes with smaller diameter cross-tubes so there is > no metal to metal contact. > > For the nose gear (having seen Alan's drawings) I am bolting a > square nylon plate with central 2" hole for the leg (using four > AN3s) to the underside of the existing top bearing, having omitted > some of the rivets and made the hole in the Al slightly oversize. > For the bottom two overlapping half bearings are made from nylon and > bolted to the existing Al plates in a nylon/Al sandwich. > > James Tannock > Nottingham > England > 601HD outer wings done from kit > Tail group done from plans > Starting to build rear fuselage from plans > S > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rolf Wittwer" <rolf(at)dove.net.au>
Subject: Re: stability problems CH701
Date: Jun 17, 1998
Bernie Wrote:---------- I wonder if Sebastien & Co have ever tried her with a symetrical > tail plane?........the upside-down tail plane will certainly pull her down very >quickly for takeoff, but in my view takeoff is always secondary to >the landing roll problem Just a few thoughts: I hope I'm not stating the obvious here but aeroplanes are designed to pitch nose down at the stall, for safety. The centre of gravity must always be kept forward of the centre of lift. The tailplane will then apply a downward force at the tail to hold the nose up while flying. If things get too slow the nose then drops so flying speed and control can be regained. This is preferable to a situation where when things get too slow in flight the tail drops causing an unrecoverable stall. I have only flown a few types of aircraft but all have shown a loss of elevator authority in a power-off stall. I land my Lightwing (a high wing taildragger) short by coming in shallow near stall speed, using the throttle to keep just enough speed and power for good control. I can feel the onset of the stall through the stick (It goes soggy) and add a little power as required. When I am just off the deck I flare very quickly as I cut the power. I must judge it right or there is not enough elevator left to flare properly (It will then bounce and come down very heavily unless power is applied instantly). It took a bit of practice and takes a lot of concentration to make it look good but it is possible to achieve a very short landing without breaking anything using this technique. I practiced flying on the stall at a safe altitude using the throttle and rudder to maintain control. I have done some successful full flap landings in the Jabiru (a high wing tricycle) using a similar technique although I nearly broke it at least once when I got too slow and ran out of back stick. As a tricycle aircraft has the centre of gravity in front of the main wheels it will pitch down on landing unless the elevator can supply sufficient force to keep the nose up (which it might not in a slow landing). The main wheels on a taildragger are forward of the centre of gravity so they prevent a pitch down at touchdown. We have just discovered why taildraggers are popular for STOL applications! Moving the centre of gravity back will reduce the severity of the pitch down but going too far could result in an unexpected tail slide if the airspeed gets too slow in flight, so I would not go outside the envelope recommended by the designer. Similarly a larger elevator or moving the main wheels forward would reduce the severity of the pitch down but would involve a lot of work and have other detrimental effects. I would just try approaching faster or coming in shallow with power. Cheers, Rolf Wittwer. PS Bernie I tried to Email our thanks but the address I have is invalid. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jun 17, 1998
Subject: Electrical Connectors?
Hey guys; I've been beating my brains out trying to find appropriate connectors for use in my airplane. Right now, I'd like to close up my elevator-before I can do this, I need a five-conductor connector that can stand the temperature swings, heat, humidity and vibration that'll affect the plane. This particular connector is for the elevator trim servo. The guys at MAC (maker of the servo) suggested a mini-DIN from Radio Shack, but I don't want to use this one: it's too small (low current), won't lock together, and doesn't look like it'd survive any kind of temperature extremes. But I have found two other options that look good. I wanted to run these by the list and see what everyone says: - Radio shack sells a nylon molex-style connector of six conductors. It doesn't have any lock-together tab, but it looks tough, durable and light. - GM has some two, three and four conductor connector kits that look pretty nice. They are weatherproof, water resistant, and have locking tabs that look good. But they are a bit bulky and heavier than the molex nylon connector. And I can't find the plug/socket in a five conductor configuration: I'll have to use a two and a three. So that's about it. I do remember the "Karmic Connector" series in Kitplanes, and that's the next place I'll look. But I wanted to ping the list first and see if you guys have come up with anything you think works pretty good. Thanks; JKB *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 1998
From: Greg Ferris <ferret(at)mxserver.forbin.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical Connectors?
I just wired-up my trim servo. I decided that the most reliable method was to simply solder the wires off the servo to the wires in the cable. I don't see the need to ever disconnect the servo unless it needs to be replaced, so I figured I could deal with resoldering a new one in if the one that's in there goes bad. Adding the connector creates 3 times the number of electrical connections compared to soldering the wires together (wires to terminals on 2 ends, then connector to connector). After I soldered, I individually wrapped each wire with electrical tape and then bundled all of them together. For strain relief, I have a grommet in the back flange of the elevator, and I encapsulated the "bundle" in hot melt glue, attached to the top surface of the servo. Seems like it should be fairly bullet-proof as far as avoiding bad contact down the road. > >Hey guys; > >I've been beating my brains out trying to find appropriate connectors for >use in my airplane. Right now, I'd like to close up my elevator-before I can >do this, I need a five-conductor connector that can stand the temperature >swings, heat, humidity and vibration that'll affect the plane. > >This particular connector is for the elevator trim servo. The guys at MAC (maker >of the servo) suggested a mini-DIN from Radio Shack, but I don't want to use >this one: it's too small (low current), won't lock together, and doesn't look >like it'd survive any kind of temperature extremes. > >But I have found two other options that look good. I wanted to run these by >the list and see what everyone says: > - Radio shack sells a nylon molex-style connector of six conductors. > It doesn't have any lock-together tab, but it looks tough, durable and > light. > - GM has some two, three and four conductor connector kits that look > pretty nice. They are weatherproof, water resistant, and have locking > tabs that look good. But they are a bit bulky and heavier than the > molex nylon connector. And I can't find the plug/socket in a five > conductor configuration: I'll have to use a two and a three. > >So that's about it. I do remember the "Karmic Connector" series in Kitplanes, >and that's the next place I'll look. But I wanted to ping the list first and >see if you guys have come up with anything you think works pretty good. > >Thanks; >JKB >*********************************************************************** >James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical Connectors?
Date: Jun 17, 1998
James, Unfortunately I don't have any good ideas on the connectors. Was wondering what you were planning on doing for the electrical ground connections? Are you going to run them back to the battery or use the plane as a ground? Thanks, Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac these by >the list and see what everyone says: > - Radio shack sells a nylon molex-style connector of six conductors. > It doesn't have any lock-together tab, but it looks tough, durable and > light. > - GM has some two, three and four conductor connector kits that look > pretty nice. They are weatherproof, water resistant, and have locking > tabs that look good. But they are a bit bulky and heavier than the > molex nylon connector. And I can't find the plug/socket in a five > conductor configuration: I'll have to use a two and a three. > >So that's about it. I do remember the "Karmic Connector" series in Kitplanes, >and that's the next place I'll look. But I wanted to ping the list first and >see if you guys have come up with anything you think works pretty good. > >Thanks; >JKB >*********************************************************************** ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical Connectors?
>I've been beating my brains out trying to find appropriate connectors for >use in my airplane. Right now, I'd like to close up my elevator-before I can >do this, I need a five-conductor connector that can stand the temperature >swings, heat, humidity and vibration that'll affect the plane. James, In regard to the trim servo in the elevator, since the stab/elevator stays permanently mounted, I plan to run the wires from the servo all the way to the panel without using any disconnnect plug. (I recall this is the way Zenith did their demo plane at the Mexico location) In the remote possibility that the servo might at some time need service or replacement, I just left enough lead wire to be able to get it out the access hole. However, I think that good non-arcing connectors will be essentual where your wing is attached to the center section. I say non-arcing just to cover that tiny possibility that you would have a fuel leak from a wing tank that would flow right past, and dissapate vapors right at the joint between the outer wings and inner wing, which is also the general area of the electrical connectors between them. I sure don't want to turn on electrical and see one of the wings leave the area...! I wish I had an answer for you as to what would fill that requirement, but I haven't gotten to the point where I needed it yet, so I haven't been trying to finalize it. There's a connector that has a bayonet type locking feature sort of like a Dzus does, (push it on, give it a twist, and it won't come loose). It's refered to as BNC. It is high quality, often used on electronics test equipment, and since it is spring loaded contact area, it seems like it would insure the non-arcing issue.. That's the one that comes to mind, but like I said, I haven't checked it out yet. As you find some, please let the group know. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Re: Wheel Axels
Andrew SanClemente wrote: > > > Hi, > could anyone give me the drill size for the axel holes in the wheel forks > on the 601HDS with Disk Brakes? I couldn't find this information in any > documentation from Zenith and would rather not go off a mic'ed value. > > Thanks > - Andrew ALSO: I'd appreciate knowing more about axels and forks. I seem to have a one-piece axel assembly for the nose wheel. How do I install this in the fork? The 2 main-gear axels have removeable bearings in a couple of pieces, so I think I can see how this goes together - but that nosewheel piece stymies me... Also, any suggestions for how to ensure a really true alignment when drilling through to the other fork? don't want my axles to end up crooked!! Thanks too, Grant Corrieau YUL 601hds50% ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Orsborn, Tom" <Tom.Orsborn(at)COMPAQ.com>
Subject: Electrical Connectors?
Date: Jun 17, 1998
James - you may want to get a copy of the AeroElectric Connection described at http://www.aeroelectric.com/ . It's over 230 pages of info on aircraft electrical system topics. It was highly recommended by the instructors in the electrical systems workshops at Sun 'n Fun. Table of Contents: Table of Contents for the 7th Edition Chapter - Topic: 1. D. C. Fundamentals 2. Batteries 3. Engine Driven Power Sources 4. Voltage Regulators 5. Grounding 6. Over Voltage Protection 7. Electrical System Instrumentation 8. Wire Selection and Installation 9. Wire Termination and Connectors 10. Circuit Protection 11. Switches, Relys and Contactors 12. Lighting and Lighting Controls 13. Antennas and Feedlines 14. Temperature Measurement 15. (reserved for) Pressure Measurement 16. Electromagnetic Compatability (Noise) Appendices: * Appendix C - - Catalog of Materials, Products and Services * Appendix Z - - Power Distribution Diagrams (Big Foldouts) Good luck! tom Hey guys; I've been beating my brains out trying to find appropriate connectors for use in my airplane. Right now, I'd like to close up my elevator-before I can do this, I need a five-conductor connector that can stand the temperature swings, heat, humidity and vibration that'll affect the plane. This particular connector is for the elevator trim servo. The guys at MAC (maker of the servo) suggested a mini-DIN from Radio Shack, but I don't want to use this one: it's too small (low current), won't lock together, and doesn't look like it'd survive any kind of temperature extremes. But I have found two other options that look good. I wanted to run these by the list and see what everyone says: - Radio shack sells a nylon molex-style connector of six conductors. It doesn't have any lock-together tab, but it looks tough, durable and light. - GM has some two, three and four conductor connector kits that look pretty nice. They are weatherproof, water resistant, and have locking tabs that look good. But they are a bit bulky and heavier than the molex nylon connector. And I can't find the plug/socket in a five conductor configuration: I'll have to use a two and a three. So that's about it. I do remember the "Karmic Connector" series in Kitplanes, and that's the next place I'll look. But I wanted to ping the list first and see if you guys have come up with anything you think works pretty good. Thanks; JKB *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 17, 1998
Subject: Re: Test Flight
<< The time finally arrived. >> Congratulations, Craig! Another more reason to keep building... What a feel that must be to flying the very contraption you've been working on for so long. Again, congratulation! Dick (601-HDS, getting ready to install the baggage floor...) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 17, 1998
Subject: Re: My brain hurts...
<< In the section that refers to preparing and drilling the REAR ZEE the instructions say to install the SPLICE PLATE with a 123mm overlap. It also says to check your alignment and make sure that rib #6 is 100mm in from I/B REAR ZEE. Simply calculations (123mm - 24mm =3D 99mm) indicate it should be at 99mm. >> Don Am not sure of your question, but the rivet line for rib #6 at the rear zee is also riveted to the splice plate. If I remember correctly, there are several verticle rows of A5 rivets, but there is a row of A4 rivets for the rib. I hope this helps. Dick (601-HDS) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nathan Schiff" <NatRus(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Electrical Connectors?
Date: Jun 17, 1998
I'm just closing my elevator and have used a Molex distributed by Waldom Electronics of Chicago, IL. Model 1625-5PRT (.062" 5 circuit polarized nylon connector. It locks together. After soldering pins male and female I sealed the exterior with GE Silicone. Makes a good connector. I bought them last weekind at Fry's Electonics in San Jose CA. Molex is probable on the internet and I'm sure you can find a local electronics or computer supply that carries them. I used the male end on the servo and the female end on the wire. I have already fitted the servo to the trim tab and tested the system with a nine volt battery. Everything seems OK. Hope this helps. Nate Schiff -- NatRus(at)worldnet.att.net Charleston, South Carolina N271ES -- ZAC CH601HDS Rudder & stabilizer complete Completing elevator control and trim system -----Original Message----- "From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 10:32 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Electrical Connectors? > >But I have found two other options that look good. I wanted to run these by >the list and see what everyone says: > - Radio shack sells a nylon molex-style connector of six conductors. > It doesn't have any lock-together tab, but it looks tough, durable and > light. I'll have to use a two and a three. > >So that's about it. I do remember the "Karmic Connector" series in Kitplanes, >and that's the next place I'll look. But I wanted to ping the list first and >see if you guys have come up with anything you think works pretty good. > >Thanks; >JKB >*********************************************************************** >James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Thilo.Kind(at)clariant.com
Date: Jun 17, 1998
Subject: Workshop at Zenithair
Hi there, I'm planning to participate the next builder workshop at Zenithair (June 26th and 27th). Is anybody else on this list participating? We might share a rental car from St. Louis airport. Interested - send me an e-mail (thilo.kind(at)clariant.com) Thilo Kind ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: My brain hurts...
Date: Jun 17, 1998
Dick, Thanks for your response. ZAC also sent a direct e-mail responding. My initial concern was that in one part of the build instructions for the outboard wing it has rib #6 at 99mm and another at 100mm. Wasn't sure which one was correct. The 100mm is wrong and the 99mm is correct per ZAC. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac -----Original Message----- From: RLucka(at)aol.com <RLucka(at)aol.com> Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 6:57 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: My brain hurts... > > ><< > In the section that refers to preparing and drilling the REAR ZEE the > instructions say to install the SPLICE PLATE with a 123mm overlap. It > also says to check your alignment and make sure that rib #6 is 100mm in > from I/B REAR ZEE. Simply calculations (123mm - 24mm =3D 99mm) indicate > it should be at 99mm. >> > >Don > >Am not sure of your question, but the rivet line for rib #6 at the rear zee is >also riveted to the splice plate. If I remember correctly, there are several >verticle rows of A5 rivets, but there is a row of A4 rivets for the rib. I >hope this helps. > >Dick (601-HDS) > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Landing Gear - just thinking
Hi all, As I'm working with the landing gear installation I find myself asking the following question. Would the spring steel gear legs of the 701 work on the 601? Seems to me it would be a lot simpler to install and maintain. There seems to be a LOT of construction time and effort in making the gear wells, bearings etc. etc. for the 601. I'm sure some strengthened points would be required to attach the spring steel legs too, but wouldn't it be simpler? How much does this part weigh? Would it add weight to the aircraft, overall? And wouldn't these flat legs provide reduced drag compared to the tubular legs? I think it would also look quite 'sporty'. If I should ever build another 601, I'd want to look at this in detail to see if it makes any sense at all. Any 'experimental' 601s out there that have tried this? Grant Corriveau Montreal 601hds50% ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Zenith Aircraft Company" <info(at)zenithair.com>
Date: Jun 18, 1998
Subject: ZENITH's OPEN HANGAR DAY
Zenith Aircraft Company's 7th annual "OPEN HANGAR" day has been scheduled for Saturday, August 22, 1998, at Mexico Memorial Airport in Missouri. All aviation enthusiasts are invited to drive or fly-in. Mark this date on your calendar and plan to attend, especially if you're flying a completed Zenair project. The newly-expanded Zenith Aircraft kit production facilities will be open to the public for factory tours and Zenith's factory-demonstrator kit aircraft will be on display. Designer Chris Heintz plans to attend the Open Hangar Day to discuss his aircraft designs. Located in scenic mid-Missouri, all pilots and aviation enthusiasts are invited to drive or fly in to attend Zenith Aircraft Co.'s seventh annual Open Hangar day. Food & refreshments will be available on the field. A rain date has been set for Sunday, August 23. More than 500 aviation enthusiasts visited last years Open Hangar day, and numerous aircraft flew in from across the Midwest to attend the annual event, including antique and other kit aircraft designs. For more information on attending the Open House, contact Linda at (573) 581-9000 or the Mexico Memorial Airport at (573) 581-0162. FMI: See http://www.zenithair.com/news/open-house.html where you can print a flyer to post at your airport or publish in your EAA chapter newsletter. Zenith Aircraft Company www.zenithair.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Is this list working?
I'm not getting any e-mail from Zenith-List? Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Hello
Zenith Builders: Hi. I subscribed to this last a couple of days ago. I built the 601 rudder kit down at LeRoy Airport in Willcox, Az, over the last weekend. It seemed to go OK. I own a Cessna 150 that is drifting past TBO, at least the engine. The weight of a 150 surely has some advantages, but it limits the climb performance outrageously. The 601 is a lot lighter. I'm still amazed at how light. I'm not sure what the disadvantages of being this much lighter are. I'll try to stay out of cumulus clouds, if I buy one. For me, the next step is a demo ride. I wasn't sure building was practical, so I didn't want to fall in love with the airplane before I knew I had some hope of building it. If I hate it after the demo ride, I have a nice sculpture. It's a nice looking thing, actually, the rudder. I found that at the end of the 20 or so hours (they say 12, oh well) building the rudder, none of the skills seem too difficult. I was watching Philippe Leroy working on the main gears (another 601 HDS). This did not look easy. I've tried to follow the discussion on the gear, which suggests there is some controversy, and maybe there is an archive. I know they have had a lot of trouble with the landing gears on ultralights. With the 601, a failure might cause a prop strike, which is a real costly deal. The main gears can be made tough and maintenance free. The one on the Earthstar is just a spring, and I've seen it bounce down country roads. Any mechanism, under stress, will have a weak point. With all the wind around here, it is hard to grease it on every time. Good excuse. Thanks for your time, George Sears ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Hello
George, There are some mods you can discuss with other builders that make the landing gear from what I have heard almost bullet proof. As I am sure you know even the strongest gear won't support a pure hard nose gear landing. Although I've tested the 152's nose gear a couple of times myself. Build the plane. I am working on the wings now and I find it to be the most pleasurable project I have ever taken on. When it's down it will fly loops around your 150 and as far as flying light in the wind, if the wings stay on the turnbulence is only mild. Cheers, Steve Tail section complete, working on HDS wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 19, 1998
Subject: Re: PLEASE READ - Re: I'm Not Getting List Mail Anymore...
If you suddenly stop receiving List mail, please surf over to Zenith-List -> http://www.matronics.com/zenith-list/index.html and select the link intitled "Hey, I'm Not Getting List Mail Anymore". This will take you to a new dynamic web page that lists in reverse order every single email address that has been removed from the List. It also lists a short description of why the email address was removed, i.e. user unknown, mailbox full, etc. If you find your address listed with a recent date stamp, rest assured your address has been removed from the List. If you are confident that your email is working correctly again, there are hyperlinks from this new page that allow you to easially resubscribe. It's quick and easy! Matt -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: Hello
> >George, > >There are some mods you can discuss with other builders that make the landing >gear from what I have heard almost bullet proof. As I am sure you know even >the strongest gear won't support a pure hard nose gear landing. Although I've >tested the 152's nose gear a couple of times myself. The 150 I own has had an ng collapse, 15 years ago, long before I owned it. Got caught by a gust yesterday, direct crosswind, just as I was touching down. Got blown onto one main gear for a half second. Lots of ways to put loads on any of the gears, unfortunately. It's nice to know what level of stress to expect any of the gears to withstand. > >Build the plane. I am working on the wings now and I find it to be the most >pleasurable project I have ever taken on. When it's down it will fly loops >around your 150 and as far as flying light in the wind, if the wings stay on >the turnbulence is only mild. > It seems like a very satisfying kind of construction. Just put in the hours and follow the instructions til you can fly it. >Cheers, > >Steve >Tail section complete, working on HDS wings > Thanks, George Sears material before closing up the wing, so I will probably do it too. > P. Leroy submits to the list quite regularly, so I expect you have a good >source of info in him. > > > Tony Gunn, HDS kit, 2/3 done, most likely Stratus Subaru, Houston. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 1998
From: Norris <rnorris4(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Electrical Connectors?
James K Brigman wrote: > I've been beating my brains out trying to find appropriate connectors for > use in my airplane. Right now, I'd like to close up my elevator-before I can > do this, I need a five-conductor connector that can stand the temperature > swings, heat, humidity and vibration that'll affect the plane. > > This particular connector is for the elevator trim servo. James, Check out Mouser electronics 1-800-346-6873 or http://www.mouser.com P.116 of latest catalog has the connector that I am using. It is a Switchcraft EN3 Mini weather tight connector and has the following advantages: 1. Weather tight seal 2. Positive locking 3. available in cord or bulkhead mounting 4. available in 3 to 8 pins 5. lightweight 6. inexpensive (approx. $5-7 per connector for 5 pins) 7. Solder cup contacts already installed (no tools needed to assemble) These connectors are designed for marine electronics, so I trust the weather tight claim. I'm using a short pigtail on the elevator with a bulkhead connector attached to a bracket on the horizontal stab. I will run a long cable forward and use another set of connectors either behind the panel if I mount the trim switch there, or near the bottom of the control stick if I mount the switch on the stick (haven't decided yet). This way I can remove the tail (or panel or stick) without unsoldering anything and without having to fish a long cable the length of the fuselage, or having a long snake of a cable to deal with while the elevator is off (or temporarily on). I don't plan to remove the elevator much after I'm flying, but I'll probably have the thing on and off a dozen times or more prior to first flight, then again for painting, and no, I'm not worried about the reliablility of two connectors on a secondary control surface, but I do plan to use a cutoff switch or pullable breaker for the trim circuit. I also plan to test my ablility to overpower a runaway trim tab in flight. Has anyone else tested this in flight? How much stick force is required? Rob Norris Still working on HDS wings. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Is this list working?
I'm not getting any e-mail from Zenith-List? > >Bill ++++++ Sometimes seems that way, doesn't it. I guess we just temporarily ran out of questions. I did notify Matt that I couldn't find the latest messages in the storage archives however. Perhaps the new server isn't sending the responses to the archives file yet. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 19, 1998
Subject: Re: Is this list working?
>I did notify Matt that I couldn't find the latest messages in the storage >archives however. Perhaps the new server isn't sending the responses to the >archives file yet. Fred There was one day when the archives didn't get updated because of some system problems. Everything is working fine now! Matt -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 20, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Landing Gear Bearings
It is a bit premature for me since I am only on the stab at the moment but I will be highly interested in how to add nylon bearings to the landing gear when I get to that point. I havn't even looked at the landing gear drawings yet. Is it pretty obvious where nylon bearings are needed? Does anyone have any drawings on nylon bearing mods? Thanks, Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Working on Stab ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 20, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: New member
>Please convince me that 601HD is the right plane! There's no 601 nor 701 in >the Swedish register yet....... > >Thank's and best regards; > >joakim.birgersson(at)vetlanda.mail.telia.com ++++++ Joakim, I have missed some of the posted messages and hopefully someone has answered some of your questions you asked about. I'll just comment on the one question above. There are sure a lot of great articles written about flight tests of 601's. Too bad you missed one of the postings from Jim Campbell, editor of US Aviator... talk about an endorsement! You can find the complete letter in the archives. I forwarded a copy of it to a friend of mine on 4/29, so you should be able to find it at that date or just before. I have a hard copy here, I'll quote a couple of his lines for you. "This is about as nice a little plane as it gets". and "I flight test dozens of aircraft every year...most are pretty decent airplanes...but there are not that many that I would go out of my way to fly again...and the Zodiac is one of them" "You can't go wrong with this critter... and it's backed by a most conscientious designer, company, and family". Good enough for me. "Soft landings" Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com>
Date: Jun 21, 1998
Subject: ZENAIR CAD drawings
Hello, folks I have always been dispapointed by the quality of the Zenair drawings. As you know, they are in the process of recreating the drawings with CAD. Several of these are already available on their site: http://www.zenithair.com/cad/index.html You'll find CH 601 and 701 drawings. Their disclaimer: These are sample drawings, and are for informational and educational purposes only. THESE DRAWINGS ARE NOT FOR CONSTRUCTION, DUPLICATION, OR DISTRIBUTION. I find that these drawings can be helpfull in understanding the original drawings, as you can zoom in to view details with more clarity. This is possible because these are vector drawings. Mind Zenair's disclaimer! These drawings are informational! They may contain errors, and I did find a minor one. Cheers Carlos Sa Montreal, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Some Great Pics of 601HDS
Date: Jun 21, 1998
Recently Steve and myself went to visit a local builder that is almost finished and ready to fly. His 601HDS is just beautiful. If you like to see the pictures. I've posted them in the Photo Gallary on the website. Just click on Marshall's 601HDS pictures once you're there. http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS builder that is almost finished and ready to fly. His 601HDS is just beautiful. If you like to see the pictures. I've posted them in the Photo Gallary on the website. Just ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com>
Date: Jun 21, 1998
Subject: Electric connections
Hello, all Something has been bothering me: I read a posting asking if it was ok to use the a/c body as a return wire, to complete a circuit. I don't remember seeing a reply, so I'd like to say that I read somewhere that this is a no-no. Maybe it was Jim Weir's column, in Kitplanes. Anyone has something more specific on this?? BTW: Thanks, Don for the pictures of Marshal's 601. It seems to me he added some fairing to the wing/fuse? Cheers Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Electric connections
Date: Jun 21, 1998
>BTW: Thanks, Don for the pictures of Marshal's 601. It seems to me he added some fairing >to the wing/fuse? > The extra fairing looks really nice. Not sure if it will actually improve any performance figures, but adds a nice touch. Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Electric connections
Date: Jun 22, 1998
> Something has been bothering me: I read a posting asking if it > was ok to use the a/c body as a return wire, to complete a circuit. > I don't remember seeing a reply, so I'd like to say that I read somewhere that > this is a no-no. Maybe it was Jim Weir's column, in Kitplanes. > Anyone has something more specific on this?? Carlos, I used a negative bus about 6 in long bolted to angle on left in front of panel. Engine, battery and airframe are all grounded to it as well as all instruments. Using the airframe as a -ve return may cause electrolysis at joints, the Zn Chromate sprayed on is apparently a poor conductor and grounding everthing back to the battery is the only "positive" way, or so I am told. Bernie g. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Some Great Pics of 601HDS
>Just click on Marshall's 601HDS pictures once you're there. > >http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac > > >Don Honabach +++++ Just got back from taking a look... Very Nice! Thanks for posting them Don, I picked up several good ideas from seeing them. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 21, 1998
Subject: Re: Electric connections
<< Something has been bothering me: I read a posting asking if it was ok to use the a/c body as a return wire, to complete a circuit. I don't remember seeing a reply, so I'd like to say that I read somewhere that this is a no-no. Maybe it was Jim Weir's column, in Kitplanes. Anyone has something more specific on this?? >> I'm not quoting any sources, but am going to express my own opinion. Many builders do use the airframe as a return path for their cuircuits, and is fine if the aircraft is in good shape. But, if the aircraft spends its life outdoors, then corrosion may nibble away any electrical contacts that may exist between major components and eventually the return path may cease to exists. Oxidation can be enough to not allow low currents to pass. In my plane, I am including a return wire for each circuit. You can, however, use a larger wire as a single return for several circuits. My plane will always be in a hangar, but at the same time, it will outlast me, so this'll never be a problem for me... Hope this helps! Dick (601-HDS, clecoed on the baggage floor today). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Thilo.Kind(at)clariant.com
Date: Jun 21, 1998
Subject: Re: Electric connections
Carlos, you are right. To use the body of the aircraft as a return is not very wise. The electric current causes some chemical reaction on the metal parts, especially on the connection of parts, where the contact area is not very large (e. g. hinges etc. The result is corrosion. It isn't so bad on a car, but on an airplane... And by the way: the few feed of wire, you have to add, won't kill you... Thilo Kind wings(at)mail.axess.com on 06-21-98 16:56:57 Subject: Zenith-List: Electric connections Hello, all Something has been bothering me: I read a posting asking if it was ok to use the a/c body as a return wire, to complete a circuit. I don't remember seeing a reply, so I'd like to say that I read somewhere that this is a no-no. Maybe it was Jim Weir's column, in Kitplanes. Anyone has something more specific on this?? BTW: Thanks, Don for the pictures of Marshal's 601. It seems to me he added some fairing to the wing/fuse? Cheers Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Jun 22, 1998
Subject: Some Great Pics of 601HDS
Marshall's HDS pics - comment Superb workmanship, but he doesn't believe in corrosion protection, does he? When I think of how much faster it would be to build without surface prep, etch primer and then zinc oxide primer plus Duralec paste in all the joints and on all the rivets. I guess it would about halve the build time. On the other hand it does mask the occasional dent, etc. Mr Marshall doesn't seem to have any of those.....! James Tannock Nottingham England 601HD outer wings done from kit Tail group done from plans Building rear fuselage from plans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Some Great Pics of 601HDS
Out here in sunny Arizona we get an average rainfall of 7 inches a year. The sun shines 340 out of 365 days a year. And humidity is not really a problem The closest ocean is over 4oo miles away so the worst salt problem we have is in our diets. I am personally corrosion protecting all of my mating surfaces as did Marshall but I feel completely covering all surfaces is a bit of overkill for our climate. I sure wish I knew for sure though. I guess better safe than sorry is always a good rule of thumb, but how do we decide when enoough is enough? Just my thoughts, for what ever they are worth. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com>
Date: Jun 22, 1998
Subject: Aluminum prep
Hello, all > Superb workmanship, but he doesn't believe in corrosion protection, > does he? When I think of how much faster it would be to build > without surface prep, etch primer and then zinc oxide primer plus > Duralec paste in all the joints and on all the rivets. I guess it > would about halve the build time. > > James Tannock > Nottingham > England James, what's Duralec paste? First time I hear about it... Carlos S Montreal, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Aluminum prep
Date: Jun 22, 1998
>> without surface prep, etch primer and then zinc oxide primer plus >> Duralec paste in all the joints and on all the rivets. I guess it >> would about halve the build time. >> Wow! I thought that using Laquer Thinner followed up by Zinc Oxide was a pain. Any reason for all the extra work? Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Payson" <payce(at)niagara.com>
Subject: Re: Crosswind Handling
Date: Jun 22, 1998
Hi Fellow Builders: I posed this question on the Zenith BBS and got one reply. I was hoping for more from those already flying their 601's. How does the 601 handle in crosswinds? What speeds and angles have you had to deal with? Any major problems in crosswinds? I'd appreciate some input on this subject. Thanks! Dave Payson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PWalsh8045(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 22, 1998
Subject: Re: Crosswind Handling
I havent done any real testing with regard to crosswind handling, other than to say that my 601hd sure handles as well as any 152 or 172 that Ive flown. I know ive landed with a 20 knot direct crosswind and did just fine. A little power on and just fly her down on the upwind main. FUN,YES! Hope that helps. Patrick Walsh PWalsh8045(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: LE Wing Tanks...
Date: Jun 22, 1998
Finally got the chance to get some building done. Started on my outboard 601HDS wings with the LE Wing Tanks tonight and was hoping that someone might be help with the following questions pertaining to the LE Wing Tanks: The replacement Nose Rib 7A touches (interferes) with the buck rivets on the main spar. What should be done? (Cover them, drill them out, drill a hole in the NR7A, etc.) The included U Channel (double L bracket) that replaces Leading Edge Rib #7 just barely touches the two pre-drilled Spar Extrusion Holes when centered. More specific, the end of the U Channel covers about 1/2 the hole of the Spar Extrusion holes. Should I cut the U Channel down, or does this need to extend the full length? Thanks, Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS S/N - 6-3770 http://www.pcperfect.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DVanvoorhi(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Subject: Re: Electrical Connectors?
If you want to be assured of contact reliability in extemes of temperature, environment and vibration use a connector with gold plated beryllium copper contacts. Most of the commercial connectors that I have seen use tin plate over spring brass. Spring brass contact pressure varies with temperature and tin will fret with vibration causing poor contact in both cases. It may be overkill but I'll use the Be/Cu and Au (20-30 millionths) or else hard wire with soft solder connections. My experience is with railroad electronics systems - wayside and on-board. I gave this information to the writer of the excellent Karmic articles but didn't get any response. Dirk Van Voorhis (601HD tri - all scratch - almost ready to etch alodine and prime the components for the the three wing sections.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Tannock" <James.Tannock(at)nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Subject: Aluminum prep
________________________________________________________________________________ >Wow! I thought that using Laquer Thinner followed up by Zinc Oxide >was a pain. Any reason for all the extra work? Two reasons, first I want the airframe to be protected from corrosion for 20 years in a wet salty environment. Second my PFA inspector insists on it. When I tried to use only etch primer in the elevator and stabilizer he told me to spray it with ZnO before closing. Sometimes after a few weeks of English rain and murk I wish I lived in Arizona, but I suppose it gets a bit too hot from time to time... ________________________________________________________________________________ > James, what's Duralec paste? First time I hear about it... > Duralec is a yellow ZnCr paste which sets slowly and is used in marine and aviation work to prevent corrosion in joints, especially between dissimilar metals. There is also a non- setting ZnCr paste available which is much more expensive. Duralec may be a UK trade name, but I expect there is something similar available from Aircraft Spruce or boat chandlers. It is applied to joints with a paint brush and rivets are dipped in it before setting. It is very good for bolts too. No need to mix up a batch of primer before setting a few rivets - just open the tin. Great stuff but it ruins your cloths. James Tannock Nottingham England 601HD outer wings done from kit Tail group done from plans Building rear fuselage from plans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Crosswind Handling
Date: Jun 23, 1998
To: > From: Dave Payson <payce(at)niagara.com> I should say the 601 HDS and ULA at least handle very well probably better than any other a/c I have flown. I have come in in 35 knots of wind at rightangles to the strip, keeping upwind wing low and at an angle. It was made easier by a few trees and hangars which gave some shelter low down. Not having a great momentum gusts are more easily corrected. It pays to keep just above terra firma until you feel a lull and then put her down firmly. There was something on the page once about someone bending the gear forks, he must have put her down at the wrong time. I would not worry on this score, can tell you of a dozen well known a/c which are much more difficult. Taking off in cross wind one should keep nose wheel down until 25 knots or so is reached else she will weathercock. Hope this keeps you happy, Bernie G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PHFD400(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Subject: Vertical Card Compass
Question, I would like to install a vertical card compass above the instrument panel on my 601HDS. Would like to hear any pros and cons from any one that has installed this type compass and make or model they recommend. Thanks... Jim Olson Tarpon Springs, FL CH601HDS N56BJ 65% done. email: phfd400(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: Crosswind Handling
Dave Payson wrote: > > Hi Fellow Builders: > > I posed this question on the Zenith BBS and got one reply. I was hoping > for more from those already flying their 601's. > You're probably not getting much, because this is, in practice anyway, a rather subjective thing. I don't get really excited if a wing picks up, as long as it goes back down when I put it there, whereas my bud who flies the same bird, would have a fit. Of coourse, I have 60 hours and he has 13 on his. > How does the 601 handle in crosswinds? What speeds and angles have you had > to deal with? Any major problems in crosswinds? > The only time I knew what the vectors were was at an airshow last fall when the tower told the guys we had 10 -15kts at 30 deg to out takeoff. I was a little concerned and watched the RV6 ahead of me climb out straight as a die....figured hmmm no sweat..didn't worry about it...Hah! Wrong! wing lifted...put it down, but was wandering across the runway at an angle by then...lurched into the air like a drunken sailor...was never a safety problem, but I was sure glad the tower was the only one who could see my ugly takeoff. If i hadn't watched the RV, I'd have been ready. Lesson learned...RV pilot had over 300hrs in his. I had 25 in mine...ergo NEVER underestimate what a crosswind will do.I fly out of a grass strip. crosswinds are never a problem now. BTW mine's a taildragger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Subject: Elect. Connector Follow-up
Hey guys; I got in contact with Mouser electronics and ordered the 5-pin molex polarized connector. You get two complete plug/socket pairs in each little pack, and they even give you two spare pins. Price per pack was $4.95. No catalog yet but it's on it's way. This connector is far superior to the mini-din that I was previously referred to and I'm very glad to get it. There isn't anything at Radio Shack just like it, although RS does sell a molex-like six-conductor plug/socket for more than twice the price. Mr. Van Voorhis' comments regarding Beryllium-Copper and Gold are correct, and the composition of the pins that came with the connector are the "usual": tin plate over brass. I'll look around today and see if I can find the pins made of the more noble metals before I wire-in and assemble the connectors. One other note: the molex-style connectors aren't typically made with any weatherproofing features. When the Mouser catalog comes I'll check out that Switchcraft EN3 weathertight connector and see how it looks. MANY thanks again to the LIST! This connector thing really froze me up for awhile: I'm awash in connectors (I work at a facility with electronics labs.) but nothing in the house is robust and tough enough that I'd want to use it in the plane. JKB *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: Crosswind Handling/ Insurance
ZL Yes, it helps me, since that is an acceptable number. And fun, too. I don't recall strong crosswinds being fun. You've got a lot of rudder (area), which is what limits the cross control. You 'run out' of rudder first, so they say. On the other hand, you can't have a wing too far down in a low wing versus high wing, or you drag it. People use different techniques. The pure technique is wing low to drift airplane counter to the wind, and opposite rudder to keep the long axis aligned with the centerline. I assume this is the technique used to establish 'maximum demonstrated x-wind'. You also want to know what the gear will take if you keep the wing low but also have to crab and sort of steer it straight on the ground. (Not so easy in a TD). People in 182's can land across a 35 knot wind with a bit of practice. I trained in a TD. Not a real fan. I noticed that they don't move the mains too far in that config. I've heard horror stories about homebuilt 'hull' insurance running something like 10% of the value (versus 2% for my C-150). Does anyone have one insured? The replacement value, with engine, might be in the high 20's+, so I'd hate to pay 10% of that, plus the liablility. George Sears > I know ive landed with a 20 knot direct crosswind and did just fine. A >little power on and just fly her down on the upwind main. FUN,YES! Hope that helps. > Patrick Walsh > PWalsh8045(at)aol.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Re: Crosswind Handling/ Insurance
Date: Jun 23, 1998
> > I've heard horror stories about homebuilt 'hull' insurance running > something like 10% of the value (versus 2% for my C-150). Does anyone > have one insured? The replacement value, with engine, might be in the > high > 20's+, so I'd hate to pay 10% of that, plus the liablility. > George... I have full coverage with Avemco. Ground and Inflight hull, as well as liability, and my cost is $1200 per year. This will vary some with amount of logged flight time and time in type. Once I get fully comfortable with the aircraft (i.e. well past my 40 hour test period) I intend to drop back to ground hull and liability coverage. For this coverage I already have a quote of $600. Hope this helps. Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru. Now at the 33 hour mark. McDonough, Ga. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Garrett" <Bernie(at)shs.port.ac.uk>
Subject: CH801-Looking at purchase- any advice!
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Hi, We are looking into buying one of the new CH801 kits when they are out. We have been after a STOL 4 seater for some time and this one looks great! Any thoughts from CH701 owners or others on ease of construction, general handling qualities and the designs idiosyncrasies most welcome! I wondered about the crosswind handling with the flapperons down? We just need convincing it's the right choice of kit! Thanks Bernie & Alison Bernie & Alison Garrett 45 Woodlands Close, Sarisbury Green Hampshire, SO31 7AQ, United Kingdom Tel: 01489 576914 E-Mail: Bernie(at)shs.port.ac.uk -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com Sent: 21 June 1998 22:13 Subject: Zenith-List: Some Great Pics of 601HDS Recently Steve and myself went to visit a local builder that is almost finished and ready to fly. His 601HDS is just beautiful. If you like to see the pictures. I've posted them in the Photo Gallary on the website. Just click on Marshall's 601HDS pictures once you're there. http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS builder that is almost finished and ready to fly. His 601HDS is just beautiful. If you like to see the pictures. I've posted them in the Photo Gallary on the website. Just ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: First Flight
Date: Jun 23, 1998
I made the first flight in my 601 HDS today. Things went pretty much without a hitch other than some radio problems. I made a few low speed and then high speed taxi tests on Sunday and everything appeared to be normal. I was surprised at how much more torque steer there was with the Subaru engine in the HDS compared to the 601 UL with a 912 Rotax (a pretty tired one I think) that I have been flying. The acceleration was also a lot better. I was tempted to go fly on Sunday however I thought it would be smart to make one last check of everything to make sure nothing important was going to fall off! So it was out to the airfield this morning to do a thorough preflight check. I then made a half dozen more high speed runs. Again all was well and I couldn't think of any reason not to go flying. As I was taxiing to the threshold of the active runway the ground controller said that my radio suddenly became weak and staticy. The controllers were obliging and still let me go with the weak radio. On to the active runway and away we go. On rotation the only difference that I noticed from the 601 UL was that the aircraft was a bit more responsive in roll. A couple of mild oscillations until that registered and from then on it was a very uneventful maiden flight. I didn't pay much attention to the ASI and it's probably not accurate at the moment but it was showing about 90 mph in a 500 fpm climb I think. Minor tweaking of the trims was all it took to remove any stick force in level flight. A couple of circuits and that was it as there was an ominous thunderstorm building in the foothills of the Rockies off to the west and the engine builder recommends a short first flight and then an oil and filter change. Landing was esentially the same as the 601 UL but with a bit less float in ground effect (which is nice). My home airfield is at 3,950 ft so the extra power of the Subaru is welcome and my first impression of the performance is that the extra "horses" are indeed there. The radio problem is a bit frustrating as I am not sure where to start to correct the problem and I want to go flying again. I guess I have to expect some teething problems. I hope the cause is obvious because electronics aren't my strong suite and there's no professional help at my field.. I'll give you all a perfromance report once I have a few more hours under my belt and the speeds checked with a GPS. Regards Alan Newell Calagry, Alberta, Canada CH 601 HDS C-GANL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Insurance
> > > >> >> >George... I have full coverage with Avemco. Ground and Inflight hull, >as well as liability, and my cost is $1200 per year. This will vary >some with amount of logged flight time and time in type. Once I get >fully comfortable with the aircraft (i.e. well past my 40 hour test >period) I intend to drop back to ground hull and liability coverage. >For this coverage I already have a quote of $600. > >Hope this helps. >Jim Weston >CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru. Now at the 33 hour mark. >McDonough, Ga. > Jim: That helps a lot. I've got coverage with Avemco. I doubt they're the cheapest but they're a known quantity. I could live with that. I looked through the NTSB records for any kind of accident history. Not much there. Thanks, George Sears ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical Card Compass
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Question, I would like to install a vertical card compass above the instrument > panel on my 601HDS. Would like to hear any pros and cons from any one that > has installed this type compass and make or model they recommend. I installed a Hamilton Instruments vertical card compass above the panel. I haven't had a chance to get much experience with it but so far; Pros: Its easy to read and alogical way to present headings. It stops my tired old brain from becoming taxed when i don't have a DG to look at. Cons: It appears to be very sensitive to magnetic interference and is tough to calibrate. It swings 30 degrees when the alternator field is energized. I didn't get the deviations down to where I would like but I didn't spend a lot of time fooling with it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Payson" <payce(at)niagara.com>
Subject: Re: First Flight
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Alan: Congrats on your maiden flight. Sounds like the Subaru is performing well. Is it a Stratus conversion? Hope the weather clears up for you so that you can get some more testing. Has to be exciting for you. Keep us land lubers informed as to the progress. Happy Aviating Dave Payson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Subject: Re: First Flight
CONGRATULATIONS!!! I am so envious I could scream. God job and happy flying. Please keep the dirty side down. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ronbo135(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Subject: Re: First Flight
Congratulations! Thanks for the reports and keep them coming. Ron Spokane, WA 601HDS/Subaru in progress ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kjl33u(at)ezy.net
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Subject: Re: LE Wing Tanks...
Don, I am also working on my wings with the leading edge tanks, I drilled two holes in rib 7A to clear the rivets on the main spar. I also discarded the u channel that ZAC sent me as I considered it too short, I replaced it with a piece of u channel, same height but slightly heaver material. I don't know if this is correct but it seems to work out ok. Regards, KEN LENNOX 601HDS TAIL GROUP COMLETED, WORKING ON OUTER WINGS SALISBURY, MARYLAND ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: First Flight
> >I made the first flight in my 601 HDS today. >Alan Newell >Calagry, Alberta, Canada >CH 601 HDS C-GANL Alan, Hey! Congratulations man! Lean over here a bit, wana pat ya on the back. Please keep us all posted on how things go and any advice you have for us. And now that your actually up there, please let us have some real GPS numbers. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)ibm.net>
Subject: Re: First Flight
Date: Jun 23, 1998
Excellent news, Alan! I am very pleased to see the Springbank Zenair Squadron increase its operational strength by one. The Evil Cessna Flying Circus is now even more fearful of joining the circuit (heh, heh). As to the radio problems, I have a copy of the wiring hookup diagram for the Terra 760 comm radio if you don't already have it. It does require an external 15 ohm, 3 watt resistor be added if the aircraft does not have a loadspeaker. It also shows suggested shielding. Again, Congrats! Darryl -----Original Message----- From: Alan Newell <anewell(at)canuck.com> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 4:14 PM Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight > >I made the first flight in my 601 HDS today. Things went pretty much >without a hitch other than some radio problems. >Regards > >Alan Newell >Calagry, Alberta, Canada >CH 601 HDS C-GANL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jun 24, 1998
Subject: Re: First Flight
Alan; Congrats on your first flight! Please let us know how things go: it's highly motivational and like manna from heaven! Good luck on your radio problem. If you don't already, try a DC power filter network. You can find 'em at any big auto parts store that carries auto stereos and speakers, or if you have a Radio Shack nearby. About $15 US. If you have any Ham buddies, they might make you one for the cost of parts-they're quite simple, a couple parallel capacitors split by a series inductor will give you nice DC-source noise suppression. One other note: you can check that your coax antenna connectors are maintaining their continuity by checking w/an ohmmeter while jiggling the cable. JKB *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca
Date: Jun 24, 1998
Subject: First Flight
Congratulations Alan! Glad to hear all went well. Sounds like it performs well. I too am envious, am currently waiting for my final inspection, so it wont be long, just a few minor things to take care of. Is yours a Stratus Subaru? Regardless, am looking forward to seeing some performance figures in the future. Nice to know that the extra power seems to be there. I will be getting checked out shortly in a 601 but it will also be a Rotax powered craft. Congratulations again and good luck with the rest of your test hours. Keep us posted. Hugh MacKenzie Grimsby, Ont. 601HDS-Stratus Subaru C-FXPL -----Original Message----- From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 6:31 PM Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight I made the first flight in my 601 HDS today. Things went pretty much without a hitch other than some radio problems. Regards Alan Newell Calagry, Alberta, Canada CH 601 HDS C-GANL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca
Date: Jun 24, 1998
Subject: First Flight
Congratulations Alan! Glad to hear all went well. Sounds like it performs well. I too am envious, am currently waiting for my final inspection, so it wont be long, just a few minor things to take care of. Is yours a Stratus Subaru? Regardless, am looking forward to seeing some performance figures in the future. Nice to know that the extra power seems to be there. I will be getting checked out shortly in a 601 but it will also be a Rotax powered craft. Congratulations again and good luck with the rest of your test hours. Keep us posted. Hugh MacKenzie Grimsby, Ont. 601HDS-Stratus Subaru C-FXPL -----Original Message----- From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 6:31 PM Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight I made the first flight in my 601 HDS today. Things went pretty much without a hitch other than some radio problems. Regards Alan Newell Calagry, Alberta, Canada CH 601 HDS C-GANL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: First Flight
Date: Jun 24, 1998
Alan: Who did your engine? This is first time I have heard recommendation for short first flight, then oil and filter change. Otherwise, congrats on first flight. You make me jealous to get mine finished and flying. This was a good first flight report on aircraft feel and engine performance; I look forward to hearing more as you get further into flight testing. Let us know what radio problem was too. Thanks, Tony Gunn, Houston, HDS kit 2/3 done, most likely Stratus Subaru > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Newell [SMTP:anewell(at)canuck.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 5:16 PM > To: Zenith List > Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight > > > I made the first flight in my 601 HDS today. Things went pretty much > without a hitch other than some radio problems. > > I made a few low speed and then high speed taxi tests on Sunday and > everything appeared to be normal. I was surprised at how much more > torque > steer there was with the Subaru engine in the HDS compared to the 601 > UL > with a 912 Rotax (a pretty tired one I think) that I have been flying. > The > acceleration was also a lot better. > > I was tempted to go fly on Sunday however I thought it would be smart > to > make one last check of everything to make sure nothing important was > going > to fall off! So it was out to the airfield this morning to do a > thorough > preflight check. I then made a half dozen more high speed runs. > Again all > was well and I couldn't think of any reason not to go flying. > > As I was taxiing to the threshold of the active runway the ground > controller said that my radio suddenly became weak and staticy. The > controllers were obliging and still let me go with the weak radio. > > On to the active runway and away we go. > > On rotation the only difference that I noticed from the 601 UL was > that the > aircraft was a bit more responsive in roll. A couple of mild > oscillations > until that registered and from then on it was a very uneventful maiden > flight. I didn't pay much attention to the ASI and it's probably not > accurate at the moment but it was showing about 90 mph in a 500 fpm > climb I > think. Minor tweaking of the trims was all it took to remove any > stick > force in level flight. A couple of circuits and that was it as there > was > an ominous thunderstorm building in the foothills of the Rockies off > to the > west and the engine builder recommends a short first flight and then > an oil > and filter change. Landing was esentially the same as the 601 UL but > with > a bit less float in ground effect (which is nice). My home airfield > is at > 3,950 ft so the extra power of the Subaru is welcome and my first > impression of the performance is that the extra "horses" are indeed > there. > > The radio problem is a bit frustrating as I am not sure where to start > to > correct the problem and I want to go flying again. I guess I have to > expect some teething problems. I hope the cause is obvious because > electronics aren't my strong suite and there's no professional help at > my > field.. > > I'll give you all a perfromance report once I have a few more hours > under > my belt and the speeds checked with a GPS. > > Regards > > Alan Newell > Calagry, Alberta, Canada > CH 601 HDS C-GANL > > > 5.0.1458.49"> first time I have heard recommendation for short first flight, then oil report on aircraft feel and engine performance; I look forward to message posted by: "Alan Newell" performance is that the extra "horses" are indeed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Schemmel, Grant" <Schemmel(at)utmc.utc.com>
Subject: First Flight
Date: Jun 24, 1998
Alan Congratulations Alan! You're an inspriation to those of us who are still plodding along. Thanks for the "feel" report too, as the only time I've had in the plane was during the demo flight, and after a couple of years, the memory gets a little dim! Grant Schemmel Penrose, CO ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: First Flight
> >Alan; > >Congrats on your first flight! Please let us know how things go: it's highly >motivational and like manna from heaven! > >Good luck on your radio problem. If you don't already, try a DC power filter >network. You can find 'em at any big auto parts store that carries auto >One other note: you can check that your coax antenna connectors are maintaining >their continuity by checking w/an ohmmeter while jiggling the cable. > >JKB Alan: That's great everything went so well. Also on the radio, there sometimes are 'blind spots', so move around a little and double check. On transmit you might see how many amps you are drawing, on some empty frequency. A bad connection somewhere might work for receive, but fail on transmit. For a 10-15 watt unit, maybe 2 amps would be drawn. If you use a headset through an intercom, there are a lot of connections. Might try something simple, like a mike by itself. If the antenna is adjustable, it might have slipped, throwing off the SWR. Anyway, what really counted seemed to go very well. George Sears ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: First Flight
Date: Jun 24, 1998
> On rotation the only difference that I noticed from the 601 UL was > that the > aircraft was a bit more responsive in roll. A couple of mild > oscillations > until that registered and from then on it was a very uneventful maiden > flight. > Alan...Congratulations on the successful first flight. Quite a thrill isn't it? I also found the roll response to be very good on my HDS as compared to the HD version. Also, several on the list are asking if it is the Stratus Subaru package that you use requiring oil change after the first flight. I have the Stratus package and the manual that came with mine recommends change at 5 hours, 30 hours, and every 50 hours after that. By the time I got in the air, I had approx. 5 hours of ground running time (it does add up) requiring an oil change after the first flight. Maybe this is also your situation. > I didn't pay much attention to the ASI and it's probably not > accurate at the moment but it was showing about 90 mph in a 500 fpm > climb I > think. > This sounds about right. I climb at between 75 and 80 mph (seems to be the best rate speed) and I get 1100 to 1200 fpm solo at an all up weight of 950 lbs at 85 deg. F on my HDS. If I increased climb speed to 90, would probably get about 500 fpm. Will have to try it. > Minor tweaking of the trims was all it took to remove any stick > force in level flight. > I am curious if you needed aileron trim. I have measured and remeasured and find no out of rig readings, but have a tendency to roll left some. Had to install trim tabs on the ailerons for hands off flight. This is the case even with weight in the right seat. I have tested with 150 lbs in the right seat (1100 lbs total weight) and she still climbs at about 800 fpm with the way I currently have my prop pitched. Good Flying. Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru McDonough, Ga. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Stabilizer & Trim Wires
Before I close my stabilizer, I wanted to check to make sure the elevator trim motor wires do NOT run through the stabilizer. Is that correct? Thanks, Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Finishing Stab ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca
Date: Jun 24, 1998
Subject: Stabilizer & Trim Wires
Mine didn't. I ran them on top of it under the fibreglass fairing. Hugh MacKenzie 601HDS Grimsby,Ont -----Original Message----- From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 12:50 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Stabilizer & Trim Wires Before I close my stabilizer, I wanted to check to make sure the elevator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Orsborn, Tom" <Tom.Orsborn(at)COMPAQ.com>
Subject: LE Wing Tanks...
Date: Jun 24, 1998
Don - I discussed the bucked rivets with Nickolas. He said to drill them out and attached the new LE Rib there. He also suggested going back with bucked rivets (through the rib flanges) or AN3 bolts rather than Avex rivets. tom Tom Orsborn -----Original Message----- From: Don Honabach [SMTP:don(at)pcperfect.com] Sent: Monday, June 22, 1998 10:27 PM To: info(at)zenithair.com Cc: jpleroy(at)ssvec.org; zenithlist(at)matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: LE Wing Tanks... Finally got the chance to get some building done. Started on my outboard 601HDS wings with the LE Wing Tanks tonight and was hoping that someone might be help with the following questions pertaining to the LE Wing Tanks: The replacement Nose Rib 7A touches (interferes) with the buck rivets on the main spar. What should be done? (Cover them, drill them out, drill a hole in the NR7A, etc.) ................... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Stabilizer Skin
For those that have finished the stab, did you have to trim the skin? Did you trim both edges or just the top? The manual says to start with the bottom and duct tape the skin flush with the spar, then drill and bottom of skin. Then use the straps for the top skin. If I do this, the skin on top will overhang the rear spar and need to be trimmed. Making the bottom skin flush with the spar almost looks wrong. If I make it flush, the front radius of the skin does not quite seem to match the radius of the tip ribs. Seems like the bottom should be trimmed a bit also???? Thanks, Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Struggling with STAB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 24, 1998
Subject: Re: Stabilizer Skin
Top Skin will deffinately need trimming. You should have between 1/4 and 1/2 inch to trim off. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: First Flight
Date: Jun 24, 1998
Thanks to you all for the kind words about my first flight. To answer a couple of questions: Engine is a NSI Subaru. I have the prop pitched for 5,000 static rpm because I didn't know how much it would gain in flight. At the 90 mph climb that I flew it was still turning 5,000 rpm so after I check in cruise I may go a bit finer. Its a 68" Warp Drive prop pitched to 16.5 degrees at the tip. The engine performed well but the Company didn't. I don't know if they are still in business, I don't think so. NSI calls for oil changes after the first flight. They recommend putting 3 to 5 hrs on the engine prior to the first flight. Then at 25 hrs, and every 100 hours or annually after that. On trim settings. I have aileron and elevator trims. In sols flight the elevator trim appears to be essentially in a neutral position. I have seen two other 601s which have a lot of up elevator trim. The aileron trim is also essentially neutral. I don't know if this means it will need a bit of right trim with a passenger. Time will tell. On my radio problem I did a bit of research tonight and think it may actually be my headset. I'd welcome any thoughts from the group. Here are the facts: During low and high speed taxi tests I didn't have a problem so the basic wiring (done by me) must have been OK. Fault appeared during low speed taxi to active runway so it had nothing to do with being in the air. Problem continued whuile I was airborne and back on the ground. I played around tonight qwhile I was running the engine to warm it up prior to changing the oil. I found that I could hear a lot of cabin noise in my headset sidetone on transmit. It got less if I covered the mike and disappeared completely if I unplugged the mike and keyed the transmit button. ________________________________________________________________________________ actually cabin noise. As I said in my last note I'm not an electronics whiz. I know that headsets have noise cancelling mikes (mine is a Peltor 7004 that I have had for several years). Can a fault develop where the "noise cancelling" capability of the mike is lost? I was sold the wrong oil filter so I couldn't check my guess with the ground controller tonight. One obvious thing to try is another headset but I don't know if I can get one right away. I guess I have my fingers crossed that it is not the radio after all. It'll be a nightmare to pull the tray out to check the connections OK group, what do you think? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: First Flight
> > >Thanks to you all for the kind words about my first flight. To answer a >couple of questions: > >Engine is a NSI Subaru. I have heard nothing but negative things about NSI, too bad! >One obvious thing to try is another headset but I don't know if I can get >one right away. I guess I have my fingers crossed that it is not the radio >after all. It'll be a nightmare to pull the tray out to check the >connections. I would go to my local FBO and ask to borrow a headset for 1 flight. That may be all that it is. Best of luck in your future flights. Bill Morelli HDS - Vermont Working Stab ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars
Date: Jun 24, 1998
Noticed this evening that my two outboard HDS wing spars are slightly bowed. If you eyeball it, the middle is bowed inwards about 5 to 7mm. I can clamp the spar to the table and remove the bow on the bottom spar extrusion and then using my hand remove the bow on the top spar extrusion. In addition, I think it can be removed during skinning, just seems odd. I searched previous messages on the topic and found a few relating, but none with an answer on whether this was okay or not. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS (Kit) http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac spars are slightly bowed. If you eyeball it, the middle is bowed inwards about 5 to 7mm. I can clamp the spar to the table and remove the bow on the bottom spar extrusion and then using my hand remove the bow on the top spar extrusion. In addition, I a few relating, but none with an answer on whether this was okay or not. Any advice ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 1998
From: James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net>
Subject: Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars
Don Honabach wrote: > > Noticed this evening that my two outboard HDS wing spars are slightly > bowed. Hi Don,I think the factory would agree with me, (they always have the last word, of course), when I say no sweat whatever, just take out the bows as you build. More of a nuisance than anything else. Retgards, James Neely ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vertical Card Compass
Date: Jun 25, 1998
> Subject: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass > Question, I would like to install a vertical card compass above the instrument > panel on my 601HDS. Would like to hear any pros and cons from any one that > has installed this type compass and make or model they recommend. > Jim Olson I have heard bad things about them but they could not be worse than the one supplied by ZAC. Have had mine rebalanced and the plane "Swung" but it still oscillates about 45 deg every time on a rate 1 turn, annoying but! Today flying in murky weather with cloud base at 2000. There appeared a hole so though would just pop up and see and come back down same hole. It suddenly vanished, was probably simply a dark band in cloud and was in the murk. Have had quite a bit of practice instrument flying so was not worried and started to descend after turning back, However, turning back started the compass swinging and could not tell if it was the damn compass turning or me! Came out of cloud after a couple of thousand feet and was actually turning though compass was (at that time) more or less stationary. Any one know of a more reliable unit? Not much use having one that lets you down on the rare occasion it is needed. B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 25, 1998
Subject: Re: Vertical Card Compass
<< I have heard bad things about them but they could not be worse than the one supplied by ZAC. >> Bernie, What brand do you have? Please tell me it's not the Airpath pedestal mount I just bought. George ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 25, 1998
Subject: Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars
Numerous times I laid those pre-drilled skins on my work to make sure everything was right. It gives you a warm feeling when you feel all alone out there. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SLF998(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 25, 1998
Subject: Re: First Flight
In a message dated 6/24/98 11:04:42 PM Mountain Daylight Time, billvt(at)together.net writes: << I have heard nothing but negative things about NSI, too bad! >> There is one local builder here in AZ that has absolutely nothing but "WONDERFUL" things to say about NSI. It's weird how these things work. I had completely written of NSI as an option, but after meeting this builder and seeing the quality of the NSI product I am going to go NSI and keep my fingers crossed. I don't need the engine for about a year and I just got the ball rolling, so we'll see what happens. NSI is not out of business they have just stopped advertising so they could get caught up on their back orders. Cavet Emptor. (let the buyer beware) Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Re: Vertical Card Compass
Bernie Gunn wrote: > > > > Subject: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass > > Question, I would like to install a vertical card compass above the > instrument > > panel on my 601HDS. Would like to hear any pros and cons from any one > that > > has installed this type compass and make or model they recommend. > > Jim Olson > I have heard bad things about them but they could not be worse than the > one supplied by ZAC. Have had mine rebalanced and the plane "Swung" but > it still oscillates about 45 deg every time on a rate 1 turn, annoying > but! > Today flying in murky weather with cloud base at 2000. There appeared > a hole so though would just pop up and see and come back down same hole. > It suddenly vanished, was probably simply a dark band in cloud and was in > the murk. Have had quite a bit of practice instrument flying so was not > worried and started to descend after turning back, However, turning back > started the compass swinging and could not tell if it was the damn compass > turning or me! > Came out of cloud after a couple of thousand feet and was actually > turning though compass was (at that time) more or less stationary. > Any one know of a more reliable unit? Not much use having one that > lets you down on the rare occasion it is needed. Bernie, What exactly is a 'vertical card compass'? Is it somehow gyro-stabilized? If it's just a different display on an ordinary compass, then the behaviour you describe (oscillating while turning, climbing/descending (i.e. accel/decel) is normal behaviour. Out of curiousity, do you have a needle/ball; or turn coordinator installed in your aircraft? Regards, Grant Corriveau 601hds50% ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical Card Compass
>> Subject: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass > Came out of cloud after a couple of thousand feet and was actually >turning though compass was (at that time) more or less stationary. > Any one know of a more reliable unit? Not much use having one that >lets you down on the rare occasion it is needed. > B Decent GPS, like a simple Garmin, can 'follow' a turn amazingly well if the anteena is locked on to lots of satellites, enough so that they overlap the turn. George Sears ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: First Flight
> > >Thanks to you all for the kind words about my first flight. To answer a >couple of questions: >On my radio problem I did a bit of research tonight and think it may >actually be my headset. I'd welcome any thoughts from the group. Here are >the facts: > >During low and high speed taxi tests I didn't have a problem so the basic >wiring (done by me) must have been OK. Fault appeared during low speed >taxi to active runway so it had nothing to do with being in the air. Hmm. It was working during the tests at low and high speed, then appeared where it hadn't been before. So something appears to have changed. Position, by itself, can cause problem. If the antenna is oriented differently, it may not work as well. The rudder might be in the way. Their antenna might be behind something, whatever. >Problem continued whuile I was airborne and back on the ground. I played >around tonight qwhile I was running the engine to warm it up prior to >changing the oil. I found that I could hear a lot of cabin noise in my >headset sidetone on transmit. It got less if I covered the mike and >disappeared completely if I unplugged the mike and keyed the transmit >button. > >>From this I deduce that the "static" that the controllers reported was >actually cabin noise. As I said in my last note I'm not an electronics >whiz. I know that headsets have noise cancelling mikes (mine is a Peltor >7004 that I have had for several years). Can a fault develop where the >"noise cancelling" capability of the mike is lost? I was sold the wrong >oil filter so I couldn't check my guess with the ground controller tonight. > >One obvious thing to try is another headset but I don't know if I can get >one right away. I guess I have my fingers crossed that it is not the radio >after all. It'll be a nightmare to pull the tray out to check the >connections > >OK group, what do you think? > There's the noise from the engine, what you hear, plus the 'static' caused by alternators turning faster and plugs firing. One gets into the system through the mike, just like your voice. The other is partly electrical waves that are picked up by parts of the radio, acting as an antenna. Basically, the sponge cover is 'noise cancelling', which is why you put the mike right next to your mouth. They do other things, but that part is easy to check and fairly bulletproof, say if the foam cover was gone. George Sears ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 1998
From: jpleroy(at)ssvec.org (Joanny Leroy)
Subject: Fuselage joining
Hello List, I just wanted to say that I got my 601 HDS rear fuselage and center section joined yesterday, and I am very thrilled to see the semblance of a fuselage. The joining of both sub-assemblies went extremely well. I can't stop looking at it which is a big problem I experience after I get parts done. I'll start the baggage floor installation later today. The fuselage is much longer than I realized. Quick question: How do I get the bungees on the main gear? Should I install the bungees on the landing gear boxes while the boxes are still outside the wing, or should I go ahead and install the landing gear boxes in the wing and then put on the bungees. I guess I'm just not seeing a good way to it right now. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Philippe Leroy Willcox, Arizona 601 HDS, JPX 85 hp engine ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com>
Subject: Fuselage joining
Date: Jun 25, 1998
Philippe: I felt same way when rear and center wing were joined, felt even better after got upper & lower longerons connected to firewall and lower forward floor connected...it's beginning to LOOK like a airplane now. I too share bungee cord question and have thought about it a lot. As I visualize the process, you 1. wrap the bungees around the "axles" in landing gear boot, then 2. hook other ends around 3/4" pipe that runs through the 2" gear leg, then 3. feed the gear leg, bungees and boot up through the four gear slides (start at an angle so the 3/4" pipe will fit through, straighten it out after you clear the L angles in the area), 4. then after bolting the boot into place, place C clamps between openings in front and back of gear boot and bottom of gear leg; tightening the clamps will stretch the bungees so that top of gear leg extends through hole in top of wing, then 5. put top cap on gear leg (use two bolts in each & safety wire between them). I heard from another guy that if you taped around each bungee after step 2 that everything would slide into the gear box much easier. Also that getting the gear boot bolts and nuts connected was pure hell, but that several different tricks exist for doing this. Likewise having the boot nuts on the outside was a lot easier (even if uglier) than trying to get them on inside of each boot. I hope other builders will comment on the 5 step process listed above and show us an easier way. Have you taken delivery on JPX engine yet? If so, tell us about it. Hope this helps...Tony Gunn, Houston, HDS kit 2/3 done > ----- > From: jpleroy(at)ssvec.org [SMTP:jpleroy(at)ssvec.org] > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 1998 12:45 PM > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Fuselage joining > > > Hello List, > > I just wanted to say that I got my 601 HDS rear fuselage and center > section joined yesterday, and I am very thrilled to see the semblance > of > a fuselage. The joining of both sub-assemblies went extremely well. > I > can't stop looking at it which is a big problem I experience after I > get > parts done. I'll start the baggage floor installation later today. > The > fuselage is much longer than I realized. > > Quick question: > > How do I get the bungees on the main gear? Should I install the > bungees > on the landing gear boxes while the boxes are still outside the wing, > should I go ahead and install the landing gear boxes in the wing and > then put on the bungees. I guess I'm just not seeing a good way to > it > right now. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > > Philippe Leroy > Willcox, Arizona > 601 HDS, JPX 85 hp engine > > > > 5.0.1458.49"> longerons connected to firewall and lower forward floor boot up through the four gear slides (start at an angle so the 3/4" pipe will fit through, straighten it out after you clear the place, place C clamps between openings in front and back of gear boot and bottom of gear leg; tightening the clamps will stretch the bungees so that top of gear leg extends through hole in top of wing, you taped around each bungee after step 2 that everything would slide bolts and nuts connected was pure hell, but that several different outside was a lot easier (even if uglier) than trying to get them on ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Schemmel, Grant" <Schemmel(at)utmc.utc.com>
Subject: Fuselage joining
Date: Jun 25, 1998
>- I hope other builders will comment on the 5 step process listed above >- and show us an easier way. > >I went thru essentially the same process, but used the bent all-thread, board >and nut combination suggested in the stepxstep procedure. This all went >together very well. Like you say though, getting the bolts through and >bolted up with the boot was an absolute bugger. > >If I had to do it over again, I would probably do as George Pinneo suggested >awhile back, and put a tapped plate in back of the bolt holes that you can >screw the bolts into. Then safety wire the bolt heads together. > >Grant Schemmel >Penrose, CO ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com>
Date: Jun 25, 1998
Subject: Landing gear
Philippe and others interested in the landing gear install, I have found some information that may be useful to you. Check these sites: Bruce Bokius http://www.europa.com/~elrond/homepage/current4.htm http://www.europa.com/~elrond/homepage/current5.htm Jeff http://www.sbnair.com/jeff/landing.htm The subject is also addressed in one of the newsletters. If you don't have them, drop me a line and I'll find it for you. Carlos Sa Montreal, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 25, 1998
Subject: Re: Fuselage joining
<< How do I get the bungees on the main gear? >> I used a variation of the all-thread method, steel rod thru the tubes with all-thread to a thick plywood "plate" on the end of the gear leg. I also found a little wire to hold bungees in place helped. I riveted nut plates to a scrap of aluminum and used washers under bolt heads. Once one bolt is started, the rest line right up. If you drill the piece of aluminum with the slides, alignment will be a cinch. George ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 1998
From: boardman(at)borg.com (Don Boardman)
Subject: Re: Vertical Card Compass
I have had a Hamilton Vertical Card Compass installed on top of the instrument panel of my 701 for six years and 450 hrs. It works great. I much prefered it over a normal compass. You do need to pay attention to mounting instructions, it likes a soft mount. Don Boardman Rome, NY N701ST amhib ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: HDS Outboard Wing - Rear O/B Splice Plate
Date: Jun 25, 1998
Hi Everyone, Seems lot a good number of you out there are working on the outboard wings. I've made a template to help in drilling the Rear O/B Splice Plate (Referenced in 6SV-4). You can download it in the tips and tricks / wings section of http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac Also, in the downloadable PDF wing instructions it shows and says that the O/B Splice Plate top side is cut to 20 degrees and the bottom at 33 degrees, but the plans have this reversed. Has any one had a chance to confirm which way is correct? Thanks! Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS - S/N 6-3770 on the outboard wings. I've made a template to help in drilling the Rear O/B Splice Plate (Referenced in 6SV-4). You can download it in the tips and tricks / wings section of Date: Jun 25, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: HDS Outboard Wing - Rear O/B Splice Plate
Splice Plate top side is cut to 20 degrees and the bottom at 33 >degrees, but the plans have this reversed. Has any one had a chance to >confirm which way is correct? ++++ Yep... I ran into this back in November and faxed a request to Nicholas for clarification. I received back a fax showing a drawing of the part and a note written by Chis that says "for both 601 and HDS, above (refering to the drawing) is correct to minimize interference with aileron rod". "(33deg is at the bottom, NOT the top)" "CH" Putting this into your minds eye, the part will have the tapered ends of the splice plate sweeping more upward, not downward. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 25, 1998
Subject: Hey! Turn Off That HTML! PLEASE READ!
Hi Listeres, There appears to be a number of people using browser-based email programs like Netscape on the Lists. By default, HTML-orentiated email programs will generally put two copies of the message in the outgoing mail - one in plain text, and the other in HTML formatted text. This is kind of a pain when posting to a large list like the RV-List or the Zenith-List since all of the crap gets resent to everyone as well as appended to the Archive. At anyrate, there is generally an option to disable the sending of the HTML formatted text and possibly even the MIME encoding. Please have a look in the Configuration or Preferences of your mail program and make sure that these are disabled. Thanks!! Best Regards, Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Re: Fuselage joining
Joanny Leroy wrote: > > How do I get the bungees on the main gear? Should I install the bungees > on the landing gear boxes while the boxes are still outside the wing, or > should I go ahead and install the landing gear boxes in the wing and > then put on the bungees. I guess I'm just not seeing a good way to it > right now. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Tony Gunn's 5 steps are pretty good except Zenair has a suggestion instead of C-clamps. (not that C-clamps might not work - I just can't picture it) Zenair suggests creating a 'special tool' consisting of threaded rod bent to pass through the two hollow 'axels' in the gear boot. The ends of these 'U' shaped rods then go through a squuare board and are bolted on to make a 'press' to insert the gear leg. It's now just a matter of tightening the bolts to compress the bungees and to direct the end of the gear leg into the top wing bearing hole. (This is all explained much more clearly in the Zenair building sequence manual available on their builder's page --highly recommended!) To insert the AN3 bolts in the bottom of the gear slides: 1. Slide the bungee cord as far over to the far side - away from the corner you'll be working in. 2. Ensure the holes in the slides and the 'overboot' are well aligned. I even re-drilled carefully just to make sure. (don't cut the bungee!!) 3. use some masking tape to create a kind of 'holder' for the head of the bolt. That is, tape onto the head of the bolt and then make a little handle about two or three inches long to help you insert the bolt into the depths and find the hole. (or Zenair suggests using sticky putty or something like that, but I didn't have any) 4. By the time I installed the last bolt, I was getting pretty good at it, but after struggling with the first one, I never thought it would all go together. So, does anyone know of a good tool to reach into the depths to hold the bolt head so I can accurately tighten the nuts?? Can't wait to get the fuselage joined! Grant Corriveau 601hds50% Montreal ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 1998
From: Norris <rnorris4(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars
Don Honabach wrote: > Noticed this evening that my two outboard HDS wing spars are slightly > bowed. If you eyeball it, the middle is bowed inwards about 5 to 7mm. I > can clamp the spar to the table and remove the bow on the bottom spar > extrusion and then using my hand remove the bow on the top spar > extrusion. In addition, I think it can be removed during skinning, just > seems odd. The bow is nothing to worry about. It will be removed during skinning if you remember to remove it during skinning. Use a factory shorn edge to align the spar perfectly straight. Notice the ends of all the spars curve in the same direction - away from the spar web and toward the spar caps. The bow is caused by the heads of all those rivets stretching the spar web (thinner material) more than the spar cap extrusion (thicker material). Same thing happens when you rivet a skin from the center out - you end up with a buckle at the edge because the skin stretches a little during each rivet set. (Not so bad with Avex rivets.) When riveting a piece you should stagger the riveting. Do one in the middle, one on the left, one on the right, one half way from middle to end, etc, gradually halving the gaps between the rivets. Rob Norris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vertical Card Compass
Date: Jun 26, 1998
---------- > From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> > To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vertical Card Compass > Date: Thursday, 25 June 1998 22:25 > > > Bernie Gunn wrote: > > Grant asks..... > Bernie, > What exactly is a 'vertical card compass'? > Out of curiousity, do you have a needle/ball; or turn coordinator installed in your aircraft? > Grant Corriveau Have never had a vertical card compass apart but suspect it is just an ordinary one geared to a card rotating about the fore and aft axis instead of the vertical axis. Mine is out at the hangar, will check the make, it used to be shown in the Aircraft Spruce handbook but is not in this year's edition. A normal compass does not swing much. As you know, due to compensating weight to correct for dip, in Canada a compass will swing from west to south if you accelerate to the west and will swing to east to south if you acclerate east. If in the air you turn north down here it will over-read by about 30 deg and under-read if you are turning south, so you pull out of a compass turn early or late depending. However, my model will swing 45 deg or more on any turn and just as much in either direction, it settles down after a minute or two but is virtually impossible to fly under the hood with any turbulence about. I have no A/H just a ball and the ASI, VSI, & speedo. That was about all they had in the first world war and they did OK, I think the A/H was developed in about 1926, Alcock & Brown had minimal instruments when flying the Atlantic in 1918 in the Vimy, in fact at one point in cloud they got into a spin, but broke clear to see the sea in the moonlight. Theory is to keep straight with compass, wings level with ball, and height more or less constant or decend at constant speed on VSI. Some types of cloud can be hard to judge, with bad light and misty stuff about one can suddenly be in it when it appears half a mile away. A contrast to nice Cu or TCu on a clear sunny day when one could fly with a wing a foot clear. The odd thing was that though I turned immediately I had to come down 2000ft to clear, there was quite a big hole OK but it must have closed over. Bernie G, ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Fuselage joining
Date: Jun 26, 1998
> Joanny Leroy wrote: > > How do I get the bungees on the main gear? it) Grant says > Zenair suggests creating a 'special tool' consisting of threaded rod bent to pass through the > two hollow 'axels' in the gear boot. The ends of these 'U' shaped rods then go through a > square board and are bolted on to make a 'press' to insert the gear leg etc Maybe I am a bit simplistic but I just got someone to sit on the wing to stretch (not "Compress" the bungees and steered the gear leg into the upper bearing with a screw drive. Didn't take hardly no time a'tall. Bernieg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 26, 1998
Subject: Re: A Riveting Experience
<< When riveting a piece you should stagger the riveting. Do one in the middle, one on the left, one on the right, one half way from middle to end, etc, gradually halving the gaps between the rivets. >> Good advice, Rob. Perhaps this would limit the buckling that occurs just to the rear of the canopy opening on the top skin caused by the compound curve. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jun 26, 1998
Subject: Re: Fuselage joining
> So, does anyone know of a good tool to reach into the depths to hold the bolt head so I can > accurately tighten the nuts?? Grant; I've bought a "parts picker-upper" at auto parts stores before that sounds like it'll be just the thing. Their cheaply made, but I've been able to find them for about $3 US. They're a spring-loaded thingie with a "trigger" at the handle end and four little metal fingers that poke out the other end. When you depress the trigger at the handle, the little fingers come out and expand. You can put the bolt head in the little fingers and they'll grip it. The shaft of the device is about two feet long and stiff enough to guide straight. JKB *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Fuselage joining
Date: Jun 26, 1998
> > So, does anyone know of a good tool to reach into the depths to hold > the bolt > head so I can > > accurately tighten the nuts?? > > Grant; > > I've bought a "parts picker-upper" at auto parts stores before that > sounds like > it'll be just the thing. Their cheaply made, but I've been able to > find them for > about $3 US. They're a spring-loaded thingie with a "trigger" at the > handle > end and four little metal fingers that poke out the other end. When > you depress > the trigger at the handle, the little fingers come out and expand. You > can > put the bolt head in the little fingers and they'll grip it. The shaft > of > the device is about two feet long and stiff enough to guide straight. > James... That is exactly what I used to install my bolts; mechanical fingers. The shaft is flexible but, as you say, very stiff. Worked well to get around the corners. Jim Weston McDonough, Ga. CH601HDS w/Stratus Subaru ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jayres(at)entergy.com
Date: Jun 26, 1998
Subject: Fuselage joining
Grant, Regarding your last question on holding the bolt heads in place, I just used an open end wrench. A couple of the bolt heads were too close to the corner of the gear slide to get the wrench on the bolt head. For those, I inserted a large flat blade screwdriver between the bolt head and the gear slide thus preventing the bolt from turning. (clear as mud?, I did my best) Jimmy Ayres 601HDS ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuselage joining Date: 6/26/98 1:54 AM Joanny Leroy wrote: > > How do I get the bungees on the main gear? Should I install the bungees > on the landing gear boxes while the boxes are still outside the wing, or > should I go ahead and install the landing gear boxes in the wing and > then put on the bungees. I guess I'm just not seeing a good way to it > right now. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Tony Gunn's 5 steps are pretty good except Zenair has a suggestion instead of C-clamps. (not that C-clamps might not work - I just can't picture it) Zenair suggests creating a 'special tool' consisting of threaded rod bent to pass through the two hollow 'axels' in the gear boot. The ends of these 'U' shaped rods then go through a squuare board and are bolted on to make a 'press' to insert the gear leg. It's now just a matter of tightening the bolts to compress the bungees and to direct the end of the gear leg into the top wing bearing hole. (This is all explained much more clearly in the Zenair building sequence manual available on their builder's page --highly recommended!) To insert the AN3 bolts in the bottom of the gear slides: 1. Slide the bungee cord as far over to the far side - away from the corner you'll be working in. 2. Ensure the holes in the slides and the 'overboot' are well aligned. I even re-drilled carefully just to make sure. (don't cut the bungee!!) 3. use some masking tape to create a kind of 'holder' for the head of the bolt. That is, tape onto the head of the bolt and then make a little handle about two or three inches long to help you insert the bolt into the depths and find the hole. (or Zenair suggests using sticky putty or something like that, but I didn't have any) 4. By the time I installed the last bolt, I was getting pretty good at it, but after struggling with the first one, I never thought it would all go together. So, does anyone know of a good tool to reach into the depths to hold the bolt head so I can accurately tighten the nuts?? Can't wait to get the fuselage joined! Grant Corriveau 601hds50% Montreal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Redfaydds(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 26, 1998
Subject: Aircraft painting
Hi All! Any suggested reading on aircraft painting? Thanks, Fred Schill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 1998
From: Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net>
Subject: Re: Fuselage joining
Bernie Gunn wrote: > > Maybe I am a bit simplistic but I just got someone to sit on the wing > to stretch (not "Compress" the bungees and steered the gear leg into the > upper bearing with a screw drive. Didn't take hardly no time a'tall. > Bernieg I'd remembered reading about someone doing it that-a-way. But what do you do when there's no heavy bodies around when you need one!!?? Hey -- whatever works. KISS! Grant Bernie G, Bernie, It all sounds like a great deal of fun! Some of the best times I've had in an aircraft have been spent in 'zoom' climbing and maneouvering around cumulus clouds! With that huge canopy, the 601 should be a ball! Grant Corriveau 601hds50% Montreal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: Aircraft painting
Date: Jun 27, 1998
> Any suggested reading on aircraft painting? Thanks, Fred Schill I used a two part polyurethane pant and am pleased with the results. It was the first painting job I have done since I sprayed some cars back in my youth (which is quite a while ago). I got better as time went on. In fact I redid the first few parts I ppainted again so if your are not experienced I'd practice on a few scraps first. The brand name that I used is Endura but I think this is a Canadian paint. They're probably all much the same anyway. You need to be cautious about protecting yourself from the paint. I used a 3-M respirator approved for organic vapours and had no problem. I built a "spray booth" in my garage and used one of those big square 3 speed fans as an exhaust fan. The paint drys fairly slowly so you need to be very careful where you exhaust the booth and what the paint will get on. It is not like a laquer where the overspray dries quickly and so is just a dust when it settles . Once it is dry it is imune to just about anything so any overspray needs to be cleaned up right away unless you want it there for ever. I use acetone to clean it before applying decals etc. with no effect on the paint! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 27, 1998
Subject: Re: HDS Outboard Wing - Rear O/B Splice Plate
<< Also, in the downloadable PDF wing instructions it shows and says that the O/B Splice Plate top side is cut to 20 degrees and the bottom at 33 degrees, but the plans have this reversed. Has any one had a chance to confirm which way is correct? >> Don - I already have my splices installed in reverse (33 up, 20 down) and later asked Nick about this. The idea for the larger angle on the bottom is to clear the aileron control rod. I already filed the bottom a little and will wait till after I install the wings to see how much more filing I will need to do. If you have already installed yours in reverse, it's better to wait till you install the wings and then make your adjustments. Dick (601-HDS, installing the baggage floor...) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 27, 1998
Subject: Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars
<< center out - you end up with a buckle at the edge because the skin stretches a little during each rivet set. (Not so bad with Avex rivets.) When riveting a piece you should stagger the riveting. Do one in the middle, one on the left, one on the right, one half way from middle to end, etc, gradually halving the gaps between the rivets. >> I agree, everyone. I found when I stagger the rivets with clecos also staggered, all riveted joints come out straight. Before riveting the wing skins, I clecoed all the holes, then removed every 4 clecos and replace with rivets. I repeat for every other 4 clecos/rivets. This results in the skin laying flat against the spar caps and there is no oil-canning whatsoever. So far in my project, I have absolutely no oil-canning anywhere. Have fun! Dick (601-HDS working on fuselage...) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: HDS Outboard Wing - Rear O/B Splice Plate
Date: Jun 27, 1998
>Don - I already have my splices installed in reverse (33 up, 20 down) and >later asked Nick about this. The idea for the larger angle on the bottom is >to clear the aileron control rod. I already filed the bottom a little and >will wait till after I install the wings to see how much more filing I will >need to do. > >If you have already installed yours in reverse, it's better to wait till you >install the wings and then make your adjustments. > Had to call ZAC for a couple other things yesterday and Nick confirmed that it wasn't a big deal which way the Splice Plate is installed. Just means more filing if the 20 degree side is down. Also, in reference to bending the splice plate, ZAC mentioned to another builder to pre-bend the splice plate and instead of doing it at 15 degrees to do it at 11 degrees. Of interest, I asked ZAC if it was important to which way the AN3 bolts should be installed in the Wing Rib #6. The preferred method is to have the bolt on the nose rib side and the nut/washer on the rear rib side. After talking with another builder I guess this is to help keep the bolt in place even if the nut/washer comes off in flight. Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 1998
From: jpleroy(at)ssvec.org (Joanny Leroy)
Subject: Baggage floor
RLucka(at)aol.com wrote: > > Dick (601-HDS, installing the baggage floor...) > Dick, I'm installing the baggage floor too. Are there any special considerations I should be aware of? I've only got the L angles riveted on so far, and I've trial fitted the floor to the fuselage. How much clearance are you cutting out for the gussets that stick out (for attaching the bent alu. tubes)? THanks, Philippe Leroy Willcox, ARIZONA 601 HDS, JPX power ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Embarassed to ask...
Date: Jun 27, 1998
What is the proper drill bit size for the "pop" A6 rivet? (Reference: These are used in the top spar extrusions for the outer ribs.) Thanks! Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Embarassed to ask...
>What is the proper drill bit size for the "pop" A6 rivet? ++ Info on this is a bit vague in the construction manual (page8) because it refers to this large rivet by size of 6/32" instead of saying A-6, but says to use a #12 drill, which is 3/16". Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Inch Rated Torque Wrench...
Date: Jun 27, 1998
In the process of working on the skeleton of the 601 outboard speed wings. Some of the holes require the use of AN3 bolts which need to be torqued to 20 inches. Went shopping today and noticed that these smaller torque wrenches are a bit pricey ($130.00). Any way to avoid needed a torque wrench for this or does anybody know of a good inexpensive inch rated torque wrench? Out of curiosity, is it bad to over torque a bolt if it doesn't break? Thanks, Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Inch Rated Torque Wrench...
>Went shopping today and noticed that these smaller torque wrenches are a bit >pricey ($130.00). Any way to avoid needed a torque wrench for this or does >anybody know of a good inexpensive inch rated torque wrench? +++++ My local EAA technical advisor offered to lend me some of these "used only a few times" tools. You might check with your local advisor, or others in a local EAA chapter. > >Out of curiosity, is it bad to over torque a bolt if it doesn't break? ++++ Oh my yes! I'll let some of the guys versed in stress dynamics explain that one. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: Embarassed to ask...
> >What is the proper drill bit size for the "pop" A6 rivet? In the construction manual it says that solid AD-4 is the same as blind A.4 and solid AD-5 is the same as blind A.5 - So I guess I would conclude that a blind A.6 is the same as a solid AD-6 - The drill for a solid AD-6 is shown as #12. This is a 4.8 mm drill or .189" - Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Working Stab ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 1998
From: Charles Sonberg <cps(at)tisd.net>
Subject: Re: Embarassed to ask...
Don Honabach wrote: > > What is the proper drill bit size for the "pop" A6 rivet? > > (Reference: These are used in the top spar extrusions for the outer > ribs.) Never be to embarrassed to ask, When I started this project I didn't know what a cleco, spar, web, station ect ect You get the idea. The people on this list are great and always answer my questions (some have been pretty dumb) This project is taking all of us out of our comfort "zone" , so ask away.Chuck ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Inch Rated Torque Wrench...
Date: Jun 28, 1998
> > > Out of curiosity, is it bad to over torque a bolt if it doesn't break? . Those AN-3's are very easy to overtorque, Beware of a feeling of the pressure on the spanner suddenly easing slightly, this means the threads are beginning to strip - throw it away and start again. I was never able to find a small torque wrench, they mostly seem designed for cylinder heads on cars, not fiddly little AN-3's and they cost! Bernie G a slalom around them. I was glued to the window but I do not believe a single one of the other passengers even noticed! Thrice blessed are we with eyes that see! Berni G.- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com>
Subject: Re: HDS Outboard Wing - Rear O/B Splice Plate
Date: Jun 28, 1998
> Of interest, I asked ZAC if it was important to which way the AN3 bolts > should be installed in the Wing Rib #6. The preferred method is to have the > bolt on the nose rib side and the nut/washer on the rear rib side. After > talking with another builder I guess this is to help keep the bolt in place > even if the nut/washer comes off in flight. That's exactly right. Where ever possible bolts should be installed with the heads facing forward or up. I understand that inspectors can get picky if this isn't done. I can't remember any locations where I wasn't able to follow this "rule". ts where I couldn't use the wrench but I think I could do a much better job by knowing what 20 inch*pounds feels like. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Rivets
I was just riveting my stab spars with A5 rivets and noticed the following. On some rivets, the little ball like piece that breaks off and stays in the rivet rattles around slightly!! On most rivets this piece is tight but not on all. I am using a pneumatic rivet puller so each pull should be consistent. Has anyone else noticed this? Is it a problem? Thanks, Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Working Stab ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 28, 1998
Subject: Re: Inch Rated Torque Wrench...
<< Went shopping today and noticed that these smaller torque wrenches are a bit pricey ($130.00). Any way to avoid needed a torque wrench for this or does anybody know of a good inexpensive inch rated torque wrench? >> How about a spring scale pulling on the end of a wrench handle? If you are a fisherman, you may already have this. A little math would be necessary to calculate the pull, but for the couple of different torques needed, it would be a lot cheaper. From my college days I recall a one pound pull on a foot long wrench is one foot-pound or twelve inch pounds. If you happen to have a 6 or 12 inch ratchet handle, this could be simple. George ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: Inch Rated Torque Wrench...
> >In the process of working on the skeleton of the 601 outboard speed wings. >Some of the holes require the use of AN3 bolts which need to be torqued to >20 inches. > >Went shopping today and noticed that these smaller torque wrenches are a bit >pricey ($130.00). Any way to avoid needed a torque wrench for this or does >anybody know of a good inexpensive inch rated torque wrench? > >Don Honabach Northern, mail order, sells 3/8th torque wrench micrometer adjustable using in/lbs, but it ranges from 120 - 960. (800 533-5545) Twenty bucks. George Sears ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LD_PAHNKE(at)prodigy.com (DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD)
Date: Jun 28, 1998
Subject: Torque wrench
I bought a Husky brand torque wrench that starts at 25 in lbs but can be loosened to 20 in lbs for the A3's etc. I too, was amazed at how little torque that seems to be on A3's. This was purchased at Lowes for $50 approx. Hope that helps some. Doug. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 1998
From: Tom Decker <tdecker(at)spectra.net>
Subject: Re: Rivets
Bill , How fast is your pneumatic rivet puller pulling the rivet ? If it's pulling real fast it might be the problem . Try pulling the trigger so it takes 1 to 2 seconds to pull the rivet and see what happens . ...Tom Decker > >I was just riveting my stab spars with A5 rivets and noticed the following. >On some rivets, the little ball like piece that breaks off and stays in the >rivet rattles around slightly!! On most rivets this piece is tight but not >on all. > >I am using a pneumatic rivet puller so each pull should be consistent. > >Has anyone else noticed this? Is it a problem? > >Thanks, >Bill Morelli >HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont >Working Stab > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ZZBUILDER(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 28, 1998
Subject: Re: Aircraft painting
Has anyone tried a HVLP gun? I used one for the primer and liked it, but haven't tried it for the color coat. Would like comments from users before I try it out. Also, is yours a compressor-fed gun or a turbine-fed? George ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: Rivets
I tried pulling A5 rivets slow and fast and it does not make any difference. I still can feel the rivet insert moving inside the rivets. If you push on the back side (ball) of the rivet with your finger and then the front side with something small like a pin, you can feel the ball move? I tried just pulling an A5 rivet all by itself and the insert is also lose. The A4 rivets do not seem act the same way. The A4's all appear to be tight. Suerely someone else has noticed this???? Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Struggling with Stab > >Bill , How fast is your pneumatic rivet puller pulling the rivet ? >If it's pulling real fast it might be the problem . Try pulling >the trigger so it takes 1 to 2 seconds to pull the rivet and see >what happens . >...Tom Decker > >> >>I was just riveting my stab spars with A5 rivets and noticed the following. >>On some rivets, the little ball like piece that breaks off and stays in the >>rivet rattles around slightly!! On most rivets this piece is tight but not >>on all. >> >>I am using a pneumatic rivet puller so each pull should be consistent. >> >>Has anyone else noticed this? Is it a problem? >> >>Thanks, >>Bill Morelli >>HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont >>Working Stab >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com>
Subject: Re: Embarassed to ask...
Date: Jun 28, 1998
>>What is the proper drill bit size for the "pop" A6 rivet? > >In the construction manual it says that solid AD-4 is the same as blind A.4 >and solid AD-5 is the same as blind A.5 - So I guess I would conclude that >a blind A.6 is the same as a solid AD-6 - The drill for a solid AD-6 is >shown as #12. This is a 4.8 mm drill or .189" - Tried using the #12 bit today on the A6 "pop" rivet. It was too small - urrgh! Went out a bought a couple additional sizes. Found #11 bit too small, and #10 drill bit fits the A6 rivet "just right". Thanks for everyone's help! Don Honabach Tempe, AZ 601HDS http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douglas G. Murray" <dgmurray(at)telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: Inch Rated Torque Wrench...
> > >anybody know of a good inexpensive inch rated torque wrench? > Question - If it is so important to get the correct torque on these AN3 bolts - (and I feel it really is important), why would anyone want to trust a cheap wrench to do the job? I have been working with the best tools for the last 25 years and can attest that the torque wrenches that cost the most are the most accurate. Snap-on Tools make a smaller wrench just suited for our sized work. We may think that they are pricey but what is our life worth when we are depending on these 'little' bolts to keep us safe in the air? I feel it best to economize on tools that don't matter and buy the best when it does. TORQUE VALUES ON FASTENERS IS VITAL. Let's fly safe. DGM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 1998
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Rivets
I still can feel the rivet insert moving inside the rivets. If >you push on the back side (ball) of the rivet with your finger and then the >front side with something small like a pin, you can feel the ball move? I >tried just pulling an A5 rivet all by itself and the insert is also lose. >The A4 rivets do not seem act the same way. The A4's all appear to be tight. > >Surely someone else has noticed this???? ++++ It was explained to me that the "ball" is mearly the end of the snap-sprue that pulls the surrounding rivet material into shape. It remains in there as designed when the sprue snaps and you're left with the snaped off end in your rivet tool. The ball is not part of the rivet material that actually holds things together. If you check a bunch of them out, you'll find that many of them are loose and is normal. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douglas G. Murray" <dgmurray(at)telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft painting
> > > Has anyone tried a HVLP gun? I used one for the primer and liked it, but > haven't tried it for the color coat. Would like comments from users before I > try it out. Also, is yours a compressor-fed gun or a turbine-fed? > > George George- I have been using a Croix HVLP gun for the past several years now and have found that it will spray every thing from primer to top - coat. My wife got a hold of it and found that it will also spray varnish and fence stain too. I had no trouble cleaning up after that episode either (g). A couple of tips while spraying overcoat may help you. The turbine has a tendency to heat the output air to the point of semi drying the paint before the paint gets a chance to flow out on the painted surface. This will attempt to orange peel due to spraying slightly dry. Either attach another length of hose between the turbine and gun to allow the output air temp to cool and/or loop the output hose into a bucket of cool water just as it leaves the turbine. A 5 gallon bucket with a couple of notches cut across from each other on the lid will keep the hose in the bucket and prevent spillage from the bucket. You will find that the reduced temp will allow you to spray with nearly the same technique as a pressure gun but with way less over spray. A little practice and you will have yourself a real beautiful paint job. Hope this helps. DGM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jun 28, 1998
Subject: New Archive Search Engine Now Online!
Listers, After 223 lines of HTML, 623 lines of CGI Script, and 1173 lines of C code, the all new Archive Search Engine is complete and now online! You will notice a significant improvment in both the performance and functionality of the new engine. You will need a browser that supports frames such as Netscape 3.0-4.0 or Internet Explorer 3.0-4.0. The new engine will split your browser window into 2 or 3 horizontal frames and will view best if you make your browser window as tall as possible. The search engine is running on a Dual Processor 200Mhz Pentium Pro Linux system and you won't believe how fast the searches are! A one-word search takes on the order of 3 or 4 seconds or less! A two-word ANDd search, maybe 4 to 5 seconds! So give it a try, have fun, and let me know what you think. You may access the search engine from the standard RV or Zenith List web pages or directly at: http://www.matronics.com/searching/search.html Best Regards, Matt Dralle RV and Zenith List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta-air.com>
Subject: Embarassed to ask...
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Don, As someone wrote, you do learn a lot during this project. It is normal not to know a lot when you start. For future reference, I learned that all rivets are measured in 32nds of an inch (i.e. AN4 = 4/32=1/8inch hole, AN5 =5/32, so an AN6 6/32=3/16inch hole, etc.) Jim Weston CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru McDonough, Ga. > What is the proper drill bit size for the "pop" A6 rivet? > > (Reference: These are used in the top spar extrusions for the outer > ribs.) > > Thanks! > Don Honabach > Tempe, AZ 601HDS > http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 1998
From: George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com>
Subject: Re: Inch Rated Torque Wrench...
> >> > >anybody know of a good inexpensive inch rated torque wrench? >> > >Question - If it is so important to get the correct torque on these AN3 bolts - >(and I feel it really is important), >why would anyone want to trust a cheap wrench to do the job? I have been working >with the best tools for the last 25 years >TORQUE VALUES ON FASTENERS IS VITAL. > >Let's fly safe. > >DGM ZL: Interesting. This list is a good start for me, with only the rudder finished. Like to know what the building is like, to avoid getting too optimistic about the project. Zod does suggest something about 'ordinary' hand tools. I've thought about prop bolts, in terms of precision. There's also probably safety wire, and pliers. Sometimes inexpensive tools are light duty but perfectly OK. This might not always be the case. You could certainly get a sense for how the tool worked, ie - consistent, reliable, in tests. I'd risk 20 to save 130. George Sears ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com>
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Tools for Building Your Zodiac
NOTE: I have no connection whatsoever to the brand names and companies mentioned in this email: I'm just a satisfied customer passing on what I've seen. I normally avoid using brand names in emails but I figure the info may be useful to you guys. Just wanted to throw in my 2-cents about tools. ********* I agree with the comment about buying the best torque wrench you can find. Seems that torque wrenches are a special exception when it comes to buying tools: to get a good, accurate torque wrench, you seem to always need to buy the best kind. Even sears sells several "levels" of torque wrench, but most expensive one seems to be the only satisfactory one.... What I saw the guys from ZAC bring with them to SnF were all "standard" quality tools: air drills, files, manual rivet tools, WISS snips, craftsman ratchets, wrenches, hammers and the like. Everything we needed for the week fit in a 4-drawer portable toolbox. The drill bits were split point bits. They looked similar to Blue-Mol. I use this brand regularly and brought with me a set of the "Blue-Mol" split point bits that have a 134-degree angle to the tip. (Much cheaper by the full set instead of buying individually.) We ended up using these bits where we needed pilot holes or to make the big holes for the AN3 bits and the A6 rivets. The 1/4" Blue-Mol bit also makes a good deburring tool for holes that can't be reached with a flat deburring edge. Note: the ZAC guys take a little block of wood about 1"x2"x5" and use it to make a "drill bit holder". They drilled one hole for each size of bit and marked the hole w/a permanent marker. THis made it very easy to grab the right drill bit size, and more importantly, if you were diligent about keeping them in the holder, you could always tell what size bit you have in the drill: it would be the empty hole in the "holder". This neat little trick saved a LOT of time when switching bits. ZAC pop rivet guns (one for A4's and one for A5's) were both very high quality, about $400 units. But what they brought with them is what they use for production, so the $400 expense was justified. Us builders should probably be buying the less expensive rivet guns because our duty cycles will be much lower. I saw some mighty nice $80 rivet guns for sale at SnF which I wish I'd bought right then...NOTE: it's my personal opinion that you should NOT buy a used rivet gun. I saw some pretty BAD deals on real beat-up rivet guns The compressor we used was the Sears Craftsman 4hp/22gal unit. We beat the h*ll out of this thing and it ran all week long without a hitch. I'm seeing prices from $190-$280 US for this class of compressor. Everybody I've talked to likes places like Harbor Freight, USATCO and Avery. I think I've seen similar opinions on this list before. JKB *********************************************************************** James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jayres(at)entergy.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars
Dick, I am not sure what "oil-canning" means. When I installed my middle top fuselage skin (before I read about staggering the rivets), I encountered some waviness between the rivets on the oposite side from which I started. Is this what you call "oil-canning"? If so, is there any concern with this other than not looking so good? Thanks, Jimmy Ayres 601 HDS (reworking the right landing gear assy) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 1998
From: Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net>
Subject: Re: 601HDS Outboard Wing Spars
> > > >Dick, > >I am not sure what "oil-canning" means. > I think oil canning is when the skin is not tight between two supporting members. It sort of buckles slightly one way or the other. If you push on the skin it might pop toward the opposite side. This is sort of the effect you get when you squeeze and release an "Oil Can". I personally don't think it is a problem if it is only slight. I would imagine if there were severe "oil canning" where the skin were very buckled, it would be a structural weak spot. Of course I too would like to hear more on this from our resident experts! Bill Morelli HDS - 6-3798 - Vermont Working Stab ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jayres(at)entergy.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Inch Rated Torque Wrench...
Hey Guys, Regarding torque wrench accuracy, I worked in a calibration laboratory for 10 years and I can tell you that those "break-over" type torque wrenches are not very accurate or repeatable (+/- 10 or 20 %). And I have calibrated all different brands. The most accurate types are the dial type, but they are not as convenient to use because you must be looking down on them to read the torque on the dial. One option (if you are concerned about the accuracy of a cheap torque wrench) is to take it somewhere and have it checked on a torque tester and then compensate for the error when you use it. Jimmy Ayres 601HDS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Re: HDS Outboard Wing - Rear O/B Splice Plate
<< Also, in reference to bending the splice plate, ZAC mentioned to another builder to pre-bend the splice plate and instead of doing it at 15 degrees to do it at 11 degrees. >> Don: Thanks for this piece of information. I recall that the splice plate was to be bent later, but I already have mine riveted in place. Will have to figure out a way to bend them without undue stress on the zee... I expect to put on the wings this fall. Dick (601-HDS, werkin' on the baggage floor.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RLucka(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 1998
Subject: Re: Baggage floor
<< I'm installing the baggage floor too. Are there any special considerations I should be aware of? I've only got the L angles riveted on so far, and I've trial fitted the floor to the fuselage. How much clearance are you cutting out for the gussets that stick out (for attaching the bent alu. tubes)? >> Phillipe: After I drilled the baggage floor onto 6F13-6 channel, which was clecoed to the 6F6-3 rear uprights without the gusset but with a shim the thickness of the gusset), I traced the area where the gusset would stick out through. I unclecoed the whole thing (the baggage floor and the rear upright assembly) and brought them home from the hangar. I made the cut-out carefully using a hanheld jig say and made them 4mm thick, which provided about a mm clearance on both sides. I checked my work by clecoing the 6F13-6 channel to the baggage floor with the gusset. I had to make a few adjustments (the cut-out was a tad too short), but finally had the inside rounded-out also about 1mm clear of the gussett. Having completed that, I went ahead and installed the 6F13-4 corner stiffener and the two short L-angles between the stiffener and the channel. I also trimmed the forward part of the baggage floor to match the curvature of


May 31, 1998 - June 29, 1998

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