Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-am
August 04, 1998 - August 25, 1998
The direction of your bolts depends on which way it fits better. Hope this
helps...
Dick (back from OSH - the XL is a little different...)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 601 XL, zinc chromate |
<<
My workshop (garage) is already setup, workbench (12 x 4) is built, tools are
completed. The only thing, that I couldn't find was a metric measurement
tape.
I checked almost every hardware store here in Delaware. So I called my mother
in Germany - they have metric tapes all over the place - and she will send me
one.
I also wasn't able yet to find zinc chromate. Anybody knows where to get this
stuff? I like to brush, not spray paint. By the way, how much do I need for
the
601 HDS?
>>
You can order a metric tape from Zenair. I did, and am still using it.
As for the zinc chromate, it depends on whether you apply zinc chromate only
on mated surfaces or on the entire interior. For mated surfaces, you probably
can use 4 spray cans and mix with lacquer thinner for faster drying (I spray
into a peanut butter jar or apple sauce cup and then apply with small brushes
(big brushes for larger surfaces). You can always order more from Aircraft
Spruce.
Hope this helps. Have a safe trip to Mexico!
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Help....Center wing bottom skin.... |
<<
The center wing bottom skin has a row of pilot holes between, and
perpendicular to, the innermost rib. Are these holes for the channel that
supports the rear torque tube bearing? This would mean the holes went at the
trailing edge. Please confirm if I'm on the right track as the Zenith plans
show very little detail....or I'm just missing the picture :)
Thanks........
>>
Yep, these holes are pilot holes for the torque tube rear bearing channel.
Don't add more holes till later - you'll be installing the bottom extrusions
later and they will occupy the undrilled sections.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "P.J. Larson" <pjl(at)host.cass.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 XL, zinc chromate |
i got zinc chromate at local auto parts store that has paint supplies also.
purchased it in quart cans and brushed almost my entire insides of my 701 on 2
quarts.
Thilo.Kind(at)clariant.com wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> I'm going next weekend to Mexico, MO, to pick up my 601 HDS kit - now they come
> out with the 601XL. On the other hand I don't like to be the first guy building
> the XL (no support like on this list etc.).
>
> My workshop (garage) is already setup, workbench (12 x 4) is built, tools are
> completed. The only thing, that I couldn't find was a metric measurement tape.
> I checked almost every hardware store here in Delaware. So I called my mother
> in Germany - they have metric tapes all over the place - and she will send me
> one.
>
> I also wasn't able yet to find zinc chromate. Anybody knows where to get this
> stuff? I like to brush, not spray paint. By the way, how much do I need for the
> 601 HDS?
>
> Thilo Kind
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 XL, zinc chromate |
>As for the zinc chromate, it depends on whether you apply zinc chromate only
>on mated surfaces or on the entire interior. For mated surfaces, you
probably
>can use 4 spray cans and mix with lacquer thinner for faster drying (I spray
>into a peanut butter jar or apple sauce cup and then apply with small brushes
>(big brushes for larger surfaces). You can always order more from Aircraft
>Spruce.
>
>Hope this helps. Have a safe trip to Mexico!
>
>Dick (601-HDS)
>
>
>>Hi,
I've used this method for several airplanes, chromating only the mating
surfaces.
I bought Zinc Chromate Primer at an auto body shop (it seems to be a stock
item at places like NAPA) in a spray can for about $11 (Canadian).
Took it outside and punched a very small hole in the top of the can with
a nail to let the propellent escape (which takes a while) then sliced the
top off the spray can, transfered the contents to a small mason jar and
used the stuff as paint-diluting with laquer thinner as required. The stuff
will outgas for a while after it's removed from the spray can, so don't
seal the masomn jar real tightly for a while.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
----------
> From: RLucka(at)aol.com
> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Seat Belts
> Dick (back from OSH - the XL is a little different...)
How about a breakdown for us people who live a bit far away to just
drop into Oskosh, ( Though they run special charter jumbos from here
especially for it!!!)
eg, How are the flaps actuated, are they a split flap right across under
the fueslage, Have they stuck with the Y-stick or put in dual? Gear legs
same, or with nylon bearings? Rudder same or with fixed forward
stabilizer? (lack of directional stability is a weak point on the 601) ,
Have they enlarged rudder and tail plane or same? Ailerons same or
shorter? (They tend to be a bit heavy) Beefed up rear Z spar or same?
What is chord and depth of wing?
Changes are probably minor, she is not a bad machine. A good day today,
snow on distant mts, cruised along coast looking at about 30 islands.
Do we believe the cruise speed claims? A thinner spar might make 3-5 knots
more speed cannot believe more, what do you think?
Bernieg.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
>How about a breakdown for us people who live a bit far away to just
>drop into Oskosh, ( Though they run special charter jumbos from here
>especially for it!!!)
+++++ Bernie, I'll offer a few answers as best I can, perhaps others have
more info too. Fred----
> How are the flaps actuated, are they a split flap right across under
>the fueslage, Have they stuck with the Y-stick or put in dual?
+++++ Yes, still single "Y" stick.
++++ Flaps are split. They replace the area we mark as "no step" from the
fuselage to the ailerons. They hinge at the bottom of he rear "Z" of the
center section, and are activated by a sort of "torque tube" that runs from
side to side inside and behind the seats and is connected to a flap lever
arrangement that was mounted on the left side of the cockpit, just a bit aft
of where your left knee would be. It has two different notched settings as I
remember, and I think Nicholas said the greatest deflection is 40 degrees.
I couldn't see just how the lever is connected to the tube that rotates the
flaps at the hinge line.------
Gear legs same, or with nylon bearings?
+++++ In Chris's seminar, he gave a good overall review of the 601 XL, but
didn't mention anything about stut bearing changes.--------
Rudder same or with fixed forward stabilizer?
++++ Rudder is the same as before--------.
(lack of directional stability is a weak point on the 601) ,
++++ Strange to hear that comment, I thought I remembered you saying good
things about the rudder control prior.-------
>Have they enlarged rudder and tail plane or same?
++++ Same size.------
Ailerons same or shorter? (They tend to be a bit heavy)
++++++ Ailerons are full length from the flap to the wing tip, still use the
"flex metal" hinge, and the new wing is back to the full 27 width as was the
HD before------
Beefed up rear Z spar or same?
+++++++ No comment hear about that being changed.-----
>What is chord and depth of wing?++++++
He only mentioned the change in the thickness and shape of the airfoil,
didn't say anything about the dimensions of the chord changing.----
> Changes are probably minor, she is not a bad machine. A good day today,
>snow on distant mts, cruised along coast looking at about 30 islands.
> Do we believe the cruise speed claims?
+++++ I asked Chris a direct question about "what kind of speed he was
getting with it "GPS", and he said that he definately did not have the right
prop on it, but was getting 135 now. He mentioned the prop issue again at
his seminar later too. He expects to get a lot more out of the "right
prop".-------
A thinner spar might make 3-5 knots more speed cannot believe more, what
do you think?
+++++ Like I mentioned before, when I asked Chris how much difference he
expected the 6 cylinder Jabaru to make in airspeed over the Jabaru 4
cylinder version, he again said that when he gets the right prop, it will
make about 12 to 15 mph better air speed than the 4 cylinder version, and he
expects to get a considerable increase in airspeed in the XL shown at the
show when he finds the proper propeller.-----
>
Hope that helps Bernie. Did any of your other guys pick up anything else....
that's all I heard regarding Bernie's questions. Fred
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 08/04/98 |
> 601XL (yes, I did see it at OSH - advertised cruise speed is
145 MPH, canopy hinge is at the front, and there were a few other mods).
The XL looked to me to be a worthwhile improvement, but don't count on the
cruise speed; Zenair
seems to inflate the speeds more than most kit manufacturers do. For
example, I get about 105MPH
TAS at 6500 feet full throttle (5300 RPM) with my HD Rotax 912, and from
what I hear that is typical,
rather than the advertised 120 MPH.
For tall people, the XL is a big improvement, and I like flaps, and I like
all the fuel in the wing, and
I like the option of more HP.
Glen.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | LE Tank installation |
For you LE tank guys.
How are the tanks secured in place? Where might I purchase the cork needed
to protect the tanks from the surrounding wing structure? I looked in
Aircraft Spruce and didn't see any cork for sale.
On a side note, I certainly would be interested in adding a flaps option to
my HDS if it is possible. If anyone gets the word if and when those plans /
parts may be available, please pass it on.
Regards,
Bill Morelli - Vermont
HDS - 6-3798
working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 08/04/98 |
For
>example, I get about 105MPH
>TAS at 6500 feet full throttle (5300 RPM) with my HD Rotax 912, and from
>what I hear that is typical,
>rather than the advertised 120 MPH.
>
+++ Glen, thanks for the feed-back. Are those numbers you get from the HD
or HDS model?
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | LE Tank installation |
Bill...I got my sheets of cork at True Value hardware. They
sell it in a roll that I believe was about 1foot by 2 feet and 1/8 inch
thick.
Jim Weston
McDonough, Ga.
>
> For you LE tank guys.
>
> How are the tanks secured in place? Where might I purchase the cork
> needed
> to protect the tanks from the surrounding wing structure? I looked in
> Aircraft Spruce and didn't see any cork for sale.
>
> On a side note, I certainly would be interested in adding a flaps
> option to
> my HDS if it is possible. If anyone gets the word if and when those
> plans /
> parts may be available, please pass it on.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Morelli - Vermont
> HDS - 6-3798
> working OB wings
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Orsborn, Tom" <Tom.Orsborn(at)COMPAQ.com> |
| Subject: | LE Tank installation |
How are the tanks secured in place? Where might I purchase the cork
needed
to protect the tanks from the surrounding wing structure? I looked
in
Aircraft Spruce and didn't see any cork for sale.
Bill - according to Nick, there's no need to secure the LE tanks - the LE
skins will hold them securely. I found cork at Builder's Square, Tandy's
building supply chain. Hobby & stores also have it. I couldn't find 1/4"
cork rolls, 7/64ths was the best I could do. I'm going to double it on the
L angles and wrap the tank with a single layer or a double layer if there's
room.
tom
Tom Orsborn
601 HDS - Tail feathers complete. Attaching LE fuel tank in right outboard
wing.
Tom.Orsborn(at)compaq.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Morelli [SMTP:billvt(at)together.net]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Neely <asp(at)jet2.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LE Tank installation |
Bill Morelli wrote:
>
> For you LE tank guys.
>
> How are the tanks secured in place? Where might I purchase the cork needed
> to protect the tanks from the surrounding wing structure? I looked in
> Aircraft Spruce and didn't see any cork for sale.
>
This is a fairly standard hardware/lumber store item
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LE Tank installation |
In a message dated 8/5/98 4:29:20 PM, billvt(at)together.net writes:
<>
If you have a "Michaels" craft supply store in your area you can get the
cork
there. The tanks are hed in place only by the pressure applied by the nose
skin holding the tank in place against those spacers that are on the front
spar. The cork provides protection against rubbing metal on metal. It is a
very snug fit in there thought.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dsuz Flush Rivets |
-----Original Message-----
From: RLucka(at)aol.com <RLucka(at)aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 8:54 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Dsuz Flush Rivets
>
>
>Dick (werkin' on the now obsolete 601-HDS model (tell me tain't so))
Buck up there buddy. At least it wasn't obsolete before you opened the box,
like the new state-of-the-art computer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com> |
Hello, all
1 - I wrote to ZAC, requesting info about the XL. (I am in the
"holding pattern", and will be building from plans. It would be nice if I could
"upgrade" my plans to XL.)
Since everybody is in Oshkosh, I won't receive an answer till next week.
2 - Dr. Gunn had several questions re the XL. There are some photos at
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/index.html and
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/photos.html
The flaps, flaps lever and ailerons are clearly visible.
3 - I printed the 601 CAD drawings in a laser printer. That's a terrific improvement
over
the old drawings, worth taking a look:
http://www.zenithair.com/cad/601.html (701 drawings are also available)
Cheers
Carlos S
Montreal, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
>> I have no on-off switch installed for the wing tanks. I plan to use the
>> wing tanks only for long cross-country trips where I can go somewhere and
>> have enough auto fuel to get back. Most of my local flying will be done
>> with the wing tanks empty.
>
> I don't really get this statement.
> The gascolator usually
>goes on the front of firewall at bottom. A line goes from each wing tank to
>the fuel pump. I routed them behind the main spar, so two fuel cocks are
>mounted on the front of the spar, one between each person's feet, then
>forward to the fuel pump on the right rear of firewall.
> So one selects right or left tank, flicks on fuel pump and away she goes.
>If both cocks are left on she sucks air from the empty tank.
> I doubt you will ever fly with wing tanks empty. At least a couple of
>gallons reserve in one tank is mighty comforting to the soul. I went on an
>hours flight yeaterday, above scattered to broken cloud with 5 knot
>northerly but a lot of low mist and very obscured ground visibility. Was
>carrying at least five hours fuel. After 45 min started to look really
>socked in with low rain so flew recip course home in bright sun but did not
>bother to turn on GPS. Found ground almost invisible in places in low fog
>and mist but spiralled down a hole when time back to base had expired, to
>find I was 15 miles east of where I ought to have been, wind had swung to
>west and gone up to 35 knots, so in an hour had drifted quite a long way.
>Weather rep had said "Winds light and variable northerly, going to west
>tomorrow" I didn't need the extra gas, but suppose I had flown more than an
>hour each way, could have been handy.
> As some sage said, "Ain't nothin' so useless as gas not in tank!"
> Bernie G. 601 ULA
Bernie:
I only described my fuel line routing for the wing tanks only. From both
tanks, the fuel lines connect to a gascolator installed under the passenger
seat behind the spar. Then, another line will go through a hole on the
center wing spar web to a fuel pump to be mounted on the I/B nose rib on
the right side. From there, the fuel line will go to the top of the main
header fuel tank. From the header tank, another fuel line will go to another
gascolator to be mounted on the bottom part of the firewall in the engine
side.
Here in central Ohio (USA), there are many airports that sells fuel. Many
times, I like to fly in the evenings after work and fly for about an hour
or two and will never be too far away from refueling. During these times, I
don't really need to be hauling all that fuel around. Only when I go to Lake
Erie or other interesting places, then I'll use the wing tanks as reserves so
I'll have enough auto fuel to get back.
I worry about leaving switches, gascolator, and fuel lines in front of the
spar because a passenger may accidentally kick any ot these things and
cause a leak. That's is why I put everything behind the spar and the fuel
line going through the spar close to the right side so that I can install
some kind of cushioning material. I know, replacing the fuel line behind
the spar and under the seat will be a major pain. Will deal with that when
the time comes...
Whew! Gonna be a hot weekend - about 90 degrees outside and 105 degrees
inside an open hangar. Gonna stay home and work on the nose gear bearing
and
put the tires together onto wheels and then loosely onto the gear legs.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LE Tank installation |
<<
How are the tanks secured in place? Where might I purchase the cork needed
to protect the tanks from the surrounding wing structure? I looked in
Aircraft Spruce and didn't see any cork for sale.
>>
Hello Bill
I bought two 2-feet by 4-feet by 1/4" sheets of cork from Orchard (or any
Sears hardware store) for about a buck apiece. Try your local hardware or
Home Depot type store.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dsuz Flush Rivets |
<<
>Dick (werkin' on the now obsolete 601-HDS model (tell me tain't so))
Buck up there buddy. At least it wasn't obsolete before you opened the box,
like the new state-of-the-art computer.
>>
That's true - ain't complainin'. ZAC is planning on discontinuing the HDS
line after the XL gets going. Last night, I sat scrachin' my head wondering
why they don't discontinue the HD line as well - just have the XL and keep
things simple. Oh well, am looking forward to finishin' and flyin' the HDS by
this time next year...
Thanks for your input...
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Progress again - at last! |
After many months of delays and distractions I finally got back to work on the
project. Un-riveting to correct a mistake is such a nuisance... but just getting
up
the energy to face the problem is more than half the battle... And while in there,
it's a good opportunity to check and fix a couple more items NOW rather than after
the
pre-closing inspection: for example -
I discovered a couple of places where I did drill into the crimps on the ribs.
Does
anyone have the solution to this? Is it a 'no no' due to later fatigue cracking
etc.
(??). Does it require a 'patch' or something? Or just another rivet nearby to
ensure
proper strength?
Has anyone else 'drilled' into this problem before?
Thanks,
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
601hds 50.1% finished - racing against obsolescence!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dsuz Flush Rivets |
> >>
>
>That's true - ain't complainin'. ZAC is planning on discontinuing the HDS
>line after the XL gets going. Last night, I sat scrachin' my head wondering
>why they don't discontinue the HD line as well - just have the XL and keep
>things simple. Oh well, am looking forward to finishin' and flyin' the
HDS by
>this time next year...
>
>Thanks for your input...
>
>Dick
>
In most countries the HD is an advanced ultralight or microlight, with a
simpler license for the pilot and simple certification for the airplane.
There is a proposed NPRM, called Sport Pilot, that might have a similar
impact here, as long as the aircraft is under 1200 lbs and 39 (knot?) stall.
So, a good reason, since HDS does not qualify on stall.
George Sears
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 925-606-1001) |
| Subject: | New Daily Message Count Graphs! |
Hello Listers,
I've added something new and fun to each of the List web pages. At the
bottom of each of the pages you will find a new link to the "Daily Message
Traffic Graphs". These are graphs of the daily message traffic for each
of the Lists dating back to the start of each List. Its really kind of
neat to see how the traffic has grown over the years. Please have a
look; I'm sure you'll find them interesting. The graphs are updated
each day at 4:00am so you can keep up-to-the-day tabs on your favorite
List! ;-)
The URLs:
http://www.matronics.com/rv-list
http://www.matronics.com/kolb-list
http://www.matronics.com/zenith-list
Have fun, and best regards,
Matt Dralle
The Lists Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
re:
Rudder same or with fixed forward stabilizer?
> ++++ Rudder is the same as before--------.
> (lack of directional stability is a weak point on the 601) ,
> ++++ Strange to hear that comment, I thought I remembered you saying good
> things about the rudder control prior.-------
No, it is distinctly odd. eg if you kick on left rudder, take your
feet away and cross ankles she will bank and dive left. Tap trim to bring
nose back up, take hands off stick and she will do left turns until you are
tired. There is no tendency whatever to straighten out. Line her up
straight on a calm day and she will fly for up to 40 min with perhaps the
odd touch on rudder to keep her straight, but if she developes a slight
dive, will continue to do so. I think she would be better if steering was
self centering, if I felt energetic would consider redoing rudder putting
in a fixed vertical stabilizer. However nice machine overall. Rumours of a
new French carbon fibre ultralight at Sun 'n Fun, reputed to cruise at
180mph with Rotax 912 and be fully aerobatic. If we only live long
enough>>>>>>>>
Many thanks for your added comments,
Bernie G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Daurizio <daurizio(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dsuz Flush Rivets |
Howdy all,
I am getting ready to send my check to ZAC, and have been tossing the
HD/HDS question back and forth for a while now. Maybe I'm missing
something, but it seems to me that the XL isn't even comparable,
pricewise. It's 3k more expensive (kit), and the engine is an
additional 5k. That brings the finished unit, with no fancy avionics,
to well over 30k! Too rich for me. If they are really
discontinuing the HDS, I had better get my order in soon. Just my 2
cents.
Tom
---RLucka(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> <<
> >Dick (werkin' on the now obsolete 601-HDS model (tell me tain't so))
>
>
> Buck up there buddy. At least it wasn't obsolete before you opened
the box,
> like the new state-of-the-art computer.
> >>
>
> That's true - ain't complainin'. ZAC is planning on discontinuing
the HDS
> line after the XL gets going. Last night, I sat scrachin' my head
wondering
> why they don't discontinue the HD line as well - just have the XL
and keep
> things simple. Oh well, am looking forward to finishin' and flyin'
the HDS by
> this time next year...
>
> Thanks for your input...
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Progress again - at last! |
Grant...As the saying goes, been there, done that. Just move the crimp.
If you don't have fluting pliers a pair of needle nose pliers with two
bends downward along the centerline of the flute will look like the
original. Move over about a half inch (approx. 12.5 mm) and make a new
crimp/flute and flatten the one where you drilled. The rib won't change
shape enough to notice.
Jim Weston
CH601HDS
McDonough, Ga.
> ----------
> From: Grant Corriveau[SMTP:gfcorriv(at)total.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 5:32 PM
> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Progress again - at last!
>
>
>
> After many months of delays and distractions I finally got back to
> work on the
> project. Un-riveting to correct a mistake is such a nuisance... but
> just getting up
> the energy to face the problem is more than half the battle... And
> while in there,
> it's a good opportunity to check and fix a couple more items NOW
> rather than after the
> pre-closing inspection: for example -
>
> I discovered a couple of places where I did drill into the crimps on
> the ribs. Does
> anyone have the solution to this? Is it a 'no no' due to later
> fatigue cracking etc.
> (??). Does it require a 'patch' or something? Or just another rivet
> nearby to ensure
> proper strength?
>
> Has anyone else 'drilled' into this problem before?
>
> Thanks,
> Grant Corriveau
> Montreal
> 601hds 50.1% finished - racing against obsolescence!!
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Perry_Paul" <paul.perry(at)at.siemens.com> |
There is no tendency whatever to straighten out.
Bernie,
Do you think this is caused by mechanical friction in the rudder controls, or
is it something else?
Paul Perry
CH601HD-TD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)ak.iconz.co.nz> |
> There is no tendency whatever to straighten out.
> Bernie,
> Do you think this is caused by mechanical friction in the rudder
controls, or
> is it something else?
> Paul Perry
> CH601HD-TD
No, there is very little friction. I found the "V"s in the lower nose
gear support bearing which were intended to supply centering, provided too
much friction especially in sideslips, so slipped some polyethlene washers
under top bearing to lift lower cross bar clears of V's She can now be
steered with a touch of the toe but has no directional stability, the all
flying rudder seems happy to lie at any angle.
This is no great problem, but it is easy to find yourself flying with
crossed controls, eg, you may find she is tending to drop the right wing,
the ball is way over left and a touch of left rudder and all is balanced
again, but she cannot be flown by feel. It is possible part of this is due
to nose wheel, but doubt it.
, As I say would be interesting to see what difference the addition of a
vertical stabilizer would make.
Bernie G (CH601 ULA)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Where is Robert Nuckolls |
Guys.. A while back one of you that had been to Sun and Fun said that
Robert Nuckol's book called the Aero Electric Connection was recommended by
several people at the show. As a matter of fact I had heard of his book
before, looked up his web site and then placed a phone call to his number.
Only reached an answering machine, but I left a message requesting him to
call me back, that I wanted to order one of his books. I never heard back.
Then, I read the e-mail from one of group mentioning the Sun and Fun as per
above, so I called again,.. only reaching the answering machine and again
requested he call me so I could order the book. Again Nothing! So, I
decided to just send a check and an order right to the address he listed.
That was back on 6-25-98... and still nuthing! Today I called my bank and
found that the check has not been cashed. Anyone know what the deal is
here. And if this is a dead end, what other books are good for guidance on
installation of our avionics and proper wire routing, etc. Thanks for the
feedback. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Where is Robert Nuckolls |
>Where is Robert Nuckolls
Fred,
Have you tried sending him an e-mail? I did a few weeks ago with a question
about shipping and he got right back to me.
Regards,
Bill Morelli
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Where is Robert Nuckolls |
>Have you tried sending him an e-mail? I did a few weeks ago with a question
>about shipping and he got right back to me.
>Bill Morelli
++++ As a matter of fact, yes, but just after I posted the note to you
builders. I had thought that phone calls and sending an order right to his
home address was going to get the quickest response. I'd still like to have
his book, so "here's hoping" I hear back from him.
Thanks. Fred
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | Avemco Insurance |
Here's an update on Avemco Insurance; info fresh from the Avemco booth at
Oshkosh:
Avemco will not cover Subaru powered aircraft for hull coverage until first
100 hours flown off. They will still cover you for liability, but no hull
coverage, during this period.
It doesn't matter where or how or by whom the Soob was built up. It doesn't
matter if EAA tech counselor or flight adviser programs were used.
This comes from the fact that out of 20 Soob powered aircraft they covered,
there have been 5 Soob in-flight engine failures, 2 resulting in a single
fatality and 1 resulting in a multiple fatality. He couldn't remember all
the details, but if memory serves me, one of the failures was an NSI (but
don't quote me on that). In 3 of the failures, the engine was pulled, put
on a test stand and run normally after the crash. One engine was so badly
damaged in the crash that it couldn't be run at all, I don't know about the
other engine.
Avemco can't seem to find what is causing these inflight failures that
result in a normal running engine afterwards. The guy mentioned ignition
coils and that maybe it's heat or vibration (or a combo) related, but he
also didn't want to hang his hat on that being the cause. I mentioned
putting the coil on the other side of the firewall and shock mounting it; to
which he sort of gave me a head nod.
He said that Avemco had to do this because if they didn't they would not be
able to insure Soob powered aircraft at any cost. I read between the lines
that they are trying to put pressure on all of us to figure out this
problem, so they can get back to providing competitive hull coverage on Soob
powered birds.
In the absence of any other place to start looking for a solution what do
you guys think about the coil?
Tony Gunn, Houston
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Landing gear stop plate and lock nut |
At last! After 3 1/2 years I'm starting the last section of the assembly manual!
(In
looking back I realize now how easy it could be to finish this aircraft in about
a year of
steady building without interruptions...)
The landing gear was easily compressing into the bearings but the stop plate on
top of the
wing calls for a lockwire etc. I don't find any AN3 bolts with heads provided
for
lock-wiring. Nor do I understand how to lockwire this single bolt - what do I
wire it to?
Also, where do I buy 'real lockwire'? what are the specifications for lockwire?
I don't
recall reading answers to this before - is it in the archives?
(I'd just go look except my computer is so slow, (I just manage to do e-mail) so
the web is a
place I only go when I literally want to C-R-A-W-L...)
THANKS
Grant Corriveau
601 HDS 6-2220
50.2% complete!
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
> I found the "V"s in the lower nose
>gear support bearing which were intended to supply centering, provided too
>much friction especially in sideslips, so slipped some polyethlene washers
>under top bearing to lift lower cross bar clears of V's She can now be
>steered with a touch of the toe but has no directional stability, the all
>flying rudder seems happy to lie at any angle.
> >, As I say would be interesting to see what difference the addition
of a
>vertical stabilizer would make.
> Bernie G (CH601 ULA)
>
>Hi Bernie,
Keep an eye on the upper firewall channel if you've raised the nose gear
strut off the lower Vee bearing. That lower bearing not only centres the
nose gear, but is also designed to take most of the load of the strut.
I agree, the addition of a vertical stabilizer would help the directional
stability. One of my 601 flying pals keeps threatening to make one out of
fibreglass to see the effect.
> Cheers, Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carol Conway <ccbconway(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Join and access information |
My name is Bill Conway and I'm building a 601HD from a kit.
How do I get to the bulletin board for builders?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Schemmel, Grant" <Schemmel(at)utmc.utc.com> |
| Subject: | Landing gear stop plate and lock nut |
Grant
I have the same kind of setup on my older kit too. What i did was to
drill and tap another hole halfway between the existing one in the
center, and the outside of the gear leg. I then put in a 1/2" AN3 with
the head drilled, and replaced the center one with a head drilled type.
I then was able to safety wire between the two.
I didn't trust the existing setup either.
happy building
Grant Schemmel
Penrose, CO
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Grant Corriveau [SMTP:gfcorriv(at)total.net]
>Sent: Friday, August 07, 1998 4:00 AM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Landing gear stop plate and lock nut
>
>
>At last! After 3 1/2 years I'm starting the last section of the assembly
>manual! (In
>looking back I realize now how easy it could be to finish this aircraft in
>about a year of
>steady building without interruptions...)
>
>The landing gear was easily compressing into the bearings but the stop plate
>on top of the
>wing calls for a lockwire etc. I don't find any AN3 bolts with heads
>provided for
>lock-wiring. Nor do I understand how to lockwire this single bolt - what do
>I wire it to?
>
>Also, where do I buy 'real lockwire'? what are the specifications for
>lockwire? I don't
>recall reading answers to this before - is it in the archives?
>
>(I'd just go look except my computer is so slow, (I just manage to do e-mail)
>so the web is a
>place I only go when I literally want to C-R-A-W-L...)
>
>THANKS
>Grant Corriveau
>601 HDS 6-2220
>50.2% complete!
>Montreal
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Join and access information |
In a message dated 8/7/98 2:36:09 PM, ccbconway(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
<>
Click Here >>>>> Zenair
Builder Pages and away you go. Thumbnail for future reference.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Avemco Insurance |
O.K. guys, I guess that it is time for me to speak up.
I have the Stratus Subaru and have had one inflight failure and one
recent (night before last) inflight power loss.
The power failure happened at 1200 agl after takeoff. I had been flying
for a while and then parked on the ground for 15 minutes to add some
more weight to the right seat for gross weight testing. The engine had
refused to restart, on the ground, two other times after flying then
spending 15-20 minutes on the ground. When I switched to the alternate
ignition system (an option provided by Stratus) it started right up on
the ground. The inflight failure, mentioned above, was also with the
primary ignition and when switching to the alternate, all was o.k. for a
return to the airport. Sure glad I had that alternate system. The best
money I ever spent.
The more recent occurrence, night before last, appears to be an intake
valve that is sticking after the engine warms up good. It did it in the
air, making a lot of popping and a big reduction in power for about 5
seconds (this was fortunately as I was entering downwind for landing)
then was back smooth with an occasional miss while I landed (sure
planned that approach high). This happened again during a ground runup
test last night. Ran fine until it started to warm up good then started
popping. Let it cool, restarted and ran fine at idle. Shut down at
this point as I ran out of time and had to return home. Will keep you
all filled in on what I find. But, right now my THEORY is a sticking
intake valve because of a rocker arm adjustment that is too tight,
allowing combustion gases to get past the valve, heating up the valve
stem beyond the norm causing it to expand and grab inside the valve
guide. I am hoping that a simple valve lash adjustment will solve this
one.
By the way, the correction for the ignition problem above was to replace
the distributor thereby replacing all of the internal electronics.
Stratus was very good about working with me through this whole deal and
provided parts, at no cost, when needed. The electronics module inside
of the distributor appears to be what was failing. I'll mention things
as I think of them here. I had also replaced the ignition coil before
replacing the distributor and it's electronics, but that was no help.
Each time the electronics module failed, it was when good and hot after
a flight, ground rest time with heat building up in near 100 degree
weather and back to restart within 15-20 minutes. Also, each time once
cooled it would start and run fine. MUCH LIKE AVEMCO IS INDICATING FOR
THE ENGINES THAT WERE ABLE TO BE RUN AFTER THE FAILURES.
My guess guys, is watch out for that electronic ignition. I think that
my valve?? problem is a unique problem that will probably be solved with
an adjustment. Will let you know.
Be careful out there, I'm sure trying to.
Jim Weston
CH601HDS tri-gear w/Stratus Subaru
McDonough, Ga.
>
> Here's an update on Avemco Insurance; info fresh from the Avemco booth
> at
> Oshkosh:
>
> Avemco will not cover Subaru powered aircraft for hull coverage until
> first
> 100 hours flown off. They will still cover you for liability, but no
> hull
> coverage, during this period.
> It doesn't matter where or how or by whom the Soob was built up. It
> doesn't
> matter if EAA tech counselor or flight adviser programs were used.
>
> This comes from the fact that out of 20 Soob powered aircraft they
> covered,
> there have been 5 Soob in-flight engine failures, 2 resulting in a
> single
> fatality and 1 resulting in a multiple fatality. He couldn't remember
> all
> the details, but if memory serves me, one of the failures was an NSI
> (but
> don't quote me on that). In 3 of the failures, the engine was pulled,
> put
> on a test stand and run normally after the crash. One engine was so
> badly
> damaged in the crash that it couldn't be run at all, I don't know
> about the
> other engine.
>
> Avemco can't seem to find what is causing these inflight failures that
> result in a normal running engine afterwards. The guy mentioned
> ignition
> coils and that maybe it's heat or vibration (or a combo) related, but
> he
> also didn't want to hang his hat on that being the cause. I mentioned
> putting the coil on the other side of the firewall and shock mounting
> it; to
> which he sort of gave me a head nod.
>
> He said that Avemco had to do this because if they didn't they would
> not be
> able to insure Soob powered aircraft at any cost. I read between the
> lines
> that they are trying to put pressure on all of us to figure out this
> problem, so they can get back to providing competitive hull coverage
> on Soob
> powered birds.
>
> In the absence of any other place to start looking for a solution what
> do
> you guys think about the coil?
>
>
> Tony Gunn, Houston
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear stop plate and lock nut |
>
>>The landing gear was easily compressing into the bearings but the stop
plate on top of the
>wing calls for a lockwire etc. I don't find any AN3 bolts with heads
provided for
>lock-wiring. Nor do I understand how to lockwire this single bolt - what
do I wire it to?
>
>Also, where do I buy 'real lockwire'? what are the specifications for
lockwire? I don't
>recall reading answers to this before - is it in the archives?
Hi Grant,
You can buy lockwire at any aviation supply house. Yellow pages should
help. There are several here in Toronto, so there must be some in
Montreal.the guys at the local airport should be able to point you in the
right direction. Lockwire comes several different thicknesses
(gagues). I think the stuff I use is .032.
The safety wiring of those stop plates must be a recent addition to the
Zenair bluprints, 'cause I just used Blue locktite on my bolts. 700 hours
later and they still haven't moved.
Cheers, Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Zenith Aircraft Company" <info(at)zenithair.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Join and access information |
ZENAIR BUILDERS PAGE:
http://www.zenithair.com/bldr/
Password: zbuilder
Zenair builders and customers are invited to join us on the new ZENAIR BUILDERS
PAGE on the Internet. If you submitted information recently, it will be updated
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Send us your aircraft pictures (both flying and under construction) and send us
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We want your building experiences! See http://www.zenithair.com/bldr/bldr-
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NOTE: Because these pages contain proprietary and technical information, access
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BUILDERS: Please verifiy that we have included YOU in the listing of builders
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Write us at:
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Mexico Memorial Airport, PO Box 650
Mexico, Missouri 65265-0650 USA
Zenair: Quality Light Aircraft Since 1974
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NOLIES4US(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Avemco Insurance |
In 110 hrs. on my Soob I have had One major in-flight failure.
At 1500ft in pattern down engine shut down, did a deadstick landing with no
problem.
On ground restarted and ran fine, further running engine on ground and engine
shut down observed fuel press go to 0.
Found an inline spade connector on main fuel pump ( electric) had broken.
Fix Removed all inline connectors from fuel and ign. system, always run both
fuel pumps and both ign. bellow 2000 ft. or over any place landing spot not in
glide distance.
I run one fuel pump and one ign. off of an isolated batt.
When I installed the duel ign. I mounted the coils on a plate on the engine
mount
away from engine heat instead of on the engine. Installed ign. boxes inside
of cockpit well away from engine heat.
On another flight close to airport saw coolant press go to zero returned to
airport no problem. If I had waited for temp. to go up I would have over
heated the engine.
I recommend any water cooled engine have a coolant press. gauge.
Have had alternator bracket welds break twice, last time I added gussets for
strength think I will build a new out of steel instead of Al.
My biggest concern with the Soob installation is in the aux. equipment not the
engine or gearbox ( Ross Aero).
Bill J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Where is Robert Nuckolls |
I had contacted him by E-mail to order his book and was told that it was
currently being re-written and to expect delivery the end of July. Haven't
heard anything else.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Avemco Insurance |
<>
Are you running the OEM Subaru ignition coil? I am very interested in this
thread due to my intended use of a Soob distributor. I plan to use the Soob
coil with their module. Also understand that some aftermarket modules have
different specs than OEM. In my experience (25+ years on automobiles) it
seems to be the module that fails, but sometimes due to a partially shorted
coil primary winding. Toyota would not sell just their "igniter" without
pushing a new coil. Some of these failures would be intermittent and return
to operation after a cool-down period, typically about the time it takes for
the wrecker to show up. Most of my failures seem to occur after shut down
and a hot soak and not during actual operation. I've also learned from
another list that the higher RPM we need from the engine causes the ignition
to operate at elevated temperatures. Perhaps a blast tube would help.
Comments?
I have a question on valve clearance. Are you running factory specs?
Thanks
George
________________________________________________________________________________
Hey fellow listers,
It sure seems like there are an awful lot of Soob engine failures out there.
Is this typical? What about you Rotax guys? Are you experiencing these types
of difficulties? I am quickly getting very scared about my decision to go
Soob. I am most impressed with everyone out there who has so professionally
handled their in-flight engine failures. I sure hope I have the B***s to
handle it as well if it happens to me someday.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
>
>Hey fellow listers,
>
>It sure seems like there are an awful lot of Soob engine failures out there.
>Is this typical? What about you Rotax guys? Are you experiencing these
types
>of difficulties? I am quickly getting very scared about my decision to go
>Soob. I am most impressed with everyone out there who has so professionally
>handled their in-flight engine failures. I sure hope I have the B***s to
>handle it as well if it happens to me someday.
>
>Steve
>
>Hi Steve,
> I'm reluctant to say one powerplant is better than another, but I have
700 hrs on the hobbs on my 912 powered 601 and I have never had a single
problem with this engine. I fly with 2 other 601 owners who also have 912s.
One has 675 hrs, the other 400 hrs. They have also run absolutly trouble free.
Now, that's only 3 engines out of who knows how many, but I'm obviously
more than happy with the 912.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Progress again - at last! |
<< I discovered a couple of places where I did drill into the crimps on the
ribs. Does
anyone have the solution to this? Is it a 'no no' due to later fatigue
cracking etc.
(??). Does it require a 'patch' or something? Or just another rivet nearby
to ensure
proper strength?
Has anyone else 'drilled' into this problem before?
>>
Grant:
I did drill a hole on a crimp in a nose rib on one of my wings close to the
forward part of the rib. I drilled another hole close by and riveted that
hole. Yes, I also riveted the hole on the crimp because it was far enough
away from the flange radius that I do not believe will cause any cracks near
the radius.
If I drilled close to the radius, I probably would leave the hold unriveted
and applied somekind of Bondo patch or something just to cover the hole.
Dick (601-HDS, working on gear pre-assembly in basement while hangar is an
oven).
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dsuz Flush Rivets |
<<
There is a proposed NPRM, called Sport Pilot, that might have a similar
impact here, as long as the aircraft is under 1200 lbs and 39 (knot?) stall.
So, a good reason, since HDS does not qualify on stall.
George Sears
>>
That's correct - the stall speed has to be 39 knots or less. Am glad I have a
private pilot license for my HDS... Thanks for the info, George.
Dick (601-HDS, gettin' ready to order the Soob..)
________________________________________________________________________________
<<
Howdy all,
I am getting ready to send my check to ZAC, and have been tossing the
HD/HDS question back and forth for a while now. Maybe I'm missing
something, but it seems to me that the XL isn't even comparable,
pricewise. It's 3k more expensive (kit), and the engine is an
additional 5k. That brings the finished unit, with no fancy avionics,
to well over 30k! Too rich for me. If they are really
discontinuing the HDS, I had better get my order in soon. Just my 2
cents.
Tom
>>
Tom:
I looked into the XL some more, specifically the Jabiru 3300. Glad you got
the price, wasn't able yet to find out. However, the Jabiru requires the
100/130 LL aviation fuel (no chance on using auto fuel (??)). Also, much to
my chagrin, the Jabiru includes a wimpy 15-amp generator (alternator?),
smaller than the Rotax 912 (18-amp). True, the additional amps will not mean
much to most pilots, but I plan on using lighting for night flights, and that
alone will need more juice than what the Jabiru will deliver.
I don't think the HDS will be yanked out of the market real soon, probably not
until after the XL gets going full swing. I don't imaging ZAC will
discontinue the HDS if the HDS is selling like hotcakes (don't kill your cash
cow!).
Cheers! Enjoy your HDS...
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
<< No, there is very little friction. I found the "V"s in the lower nose
gear support bearing which were intended to supply centering, provided too
much friction especially in sideslips, so slipped some polyethlene washers
under top bearing to lift lower cross bar clears of V's She can now be
steered with a touch of the toe but has no directional stability, the all
flying rudder seems happy to lie at any angle.
>>
Bernie - have you tried using grease? You may have to re-grease now and then,
but I would think that grease should help. I plan to use lithium grease
(won't run off).
Just a thought...
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Join and access information |
<<
My name is Bill Conway and I'm building a 601HD from a kit.
How do I get to the bulletin board for builders?
>>
Welcome, Bill!
Send an e-mail to info@zenithair and request the builder's web page URL and
how to access it (any password, etc.). Don't forget to include your HD's
serial number - ZAC need it to identify you as one of their builders.
Have fun!
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
| Subject: | Flight Update and Horizontal Stab Bracket Problem |
I'm back in the air again squashing bugs after my valve pushrod failure.
No consequential damage to engine so it only took a couple of hours to
repair once I got the new pushrods. I was given and installed a complete
new set.
I have the same directional experience as Bernie but I have not modified
the nose gear. In my case I am sure that it is due to friction in the
control system. I haven't found it to be a problem. In smooth air I can
fly pretty much forever hands off once trimed for level flight (elevator
and aileron trim tabs). I can use the rudder to pick up a wing if it
starts to drop. This is a great flying aircraft. Don't worry guys you
won't be disappointed with the flying characteristics of either model as
long as you don't believe Chris's speed claims.
As my home field is at 4,000 ft I spend most of my time flying at 6,000
ft+. At this elevation, on a 25 degree centigrade day, I measured the
following; 94 mph at 4400 rpm, 100 at 4600 rpm and 107 at 4800 rpm. Speeds
are measured by GPS and represent the average for three runs in a
triangular pattern to remove the impact of wind aloft. Climb at 5,000 rpm
and 80 mph is about 800 fpm at 1070 lbs from 5,000 ft to 6,000 asl. I
haven't tried a full throttle level flight run since the push rod failure
so I don't know what the top speed is. This is for a Subaru powered HDS
with wheel pants. I'll post more as the testing proceeds and I fine tune
the prop pitch. I'm still find the HDS a delight to fly, as well mannered
as the HD but easier to land as it doesn't float as much. Stall is around
58 mph indicated. I fly final at 80 mph ias, slowing to 70 over the
threshold and touching down at about 60 ias. The air speed indicator is
pretty inaccurate as I haven't done anything to calibrate it yet. It reads
10 to 15 mph slow at 100 mph.
Grant, the locking wire for the gear stops works well with the HD and HDS
models as they use two bolts to locate the gear stop. I haven't seen
anyone wire the single bolt in the UL.
I have just seen the horizontal stab taken off a 601 UL with about 1200
training hours on it. The aircraft was damaged in a windstorm and is being
disassembled for repair. All of the mounting brackets on the stab are
cracked and one of the front brackets had failed completely. The cracks in
each front brackets go around the mounting hole, staying about 20mm from
it. On the rear bracket the cracks were much shorter. They started from
the outside edge of the bracket, on both sides, about level with the bottom
of the stab. As I mentioned this is a high time aircraft that has been
used for training (it's the one I put time on before my first flight in my
HDS) so I wouldn't panic about this but it will be on my annual inspection
list to check each bracket carefully. I think this can be done with a
small mirror without disassembling anything.
Regards,
Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Avemco Insurance |
Bill,
Also am planning a water pressure gauge. Can you suggest where I should tap
the cooling system for gauge line, and what kind of pressure readings do you
see?
Thanks for the help
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Fuel Tank Fittings |
What is the best material to use to seal fuel tank fittings when installing
them?
Bill Morelli
HDS - 6-3798
working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LD_PAHNKE(at)prodigy.com (DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD) |
I just noticed that I may have omitted a critical part on my rear
wing zee. I was
going over some papers included with the plans that had blueprint
corrections on
them for the 601HDS rear wing zee. The part omitted is referenced as
6V7-2 and
6V7-3 "rear zee top and bottom doublers" respectively. However, the
written
assembly instructions (latest edition) makes no mention of these
parts when
assembling the outboard rear zee splice plates (6SV4-2) and all 35
or so A5 rivets
to the rear zee including the rear rib flange in the rivet line. Does
anyone on the list
know about these doublers and if they assembled their 601HDS wings
with them.
Did I miss reading this assembly instruction somwhere? Or has the use
of these
particular doublers been omitted with the thicker parts? I'd hate to
drill out all of
these rivets on the splice plates to add the omitted referenced parts,
but if
necessary will certainly do so.. Any opinions ?
Also, does anyone on the list plan on adding the flaps to their HDS
that are on
the 601XL? Will ZAC provide the parts and plans for a retrofit? I am
at the stage
on the center wing where they could still be easily added. Thanks for
your input
and help.
Doug Pahnke 6 -3736
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
>Also, does anyone on the list plan on adding the flaps to their HDS
>that are on
>the 601XL? Will ZAC provide the parts and plans for a retrofit? I am
>at the stage
>on the center wing where they could still be easily added. Thanks for
>your input
>and help.
>
>Doug Pahnke 6 -3736
++++ Doug, I specifically addressed that with Chris at Oshkosh. He said
that the flaps can be added to the HDS center section, and that plans would
be available in "about 2 months". (Same deal on the new canopy front hinging
system.) I'm about 75% along on my center section and I think at this time
that I'll send Chris a fax asking what I should NOT finish on the center
section in order to be able to fit it with the new flap sysem when the plans
become available. As mentioned earlier, Chris said that the flaps will
lower the stall speed by 7 mph.
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norris <rnorris4(at)earthlink.net> |
Bernie Gunn wrote:
>
> eg, How are the flaps actuated, are they a split flap right across under
> the fueslage, Have they stuck with the Y-stick or put in dual?
Flaps are NOT split type, but plain. Look like the ailerons but shorter
(2ft) and hinged on bottom. Flaps do not cross under fuselage, but
extend outboard from fuselage about 2ft each side.
>Gear legs
> same, or with nylon bearings?
Gear looks the same but I noticed thick plastic block with shallow vee
where nose gear strut bottom stops meet fuselage attach bracket. Could
not see if same setup was installed on mains.
> What is chord and depth of wing?
Chord about the same as HD wing with a little taper, but less than HDS.
Thickness about 9" at root with some taper but again less than HDS.
By the way, for all you scratch builders, Nick told me XL kits will be
available before full plans (if at all), as drawings are being done on
cad system. They take longer but should be much better quality than hand
drawn sketches of HD, HDS. Chris said in his seminar that kit
availability will not be before the beginning of next year.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norris <rnorris4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear stop plate and lock nut |
It is acceptable to drill through the head of an undrilled bolt
effectively changing it from a AN3-XA to a AN3H-XA, or AN3-X to AN3H-X
where the A at the end means the shank is undrilled, and the H means the
head is drilled. Use a small drill bit - no larger than 1/16". I don't
recommend drilling unless you're really stuck because it can be very
difficult as AN hardware is pretty tough stuff. Probably easier to order
from AC Spruce or somebody. It's worth it to order a catalog from AC
spruce just to see what's available.
> The landing gear was easily compressing into the bearings but the stop plate
on top of the
> wing calls for a lockwire etc. I don't find any AN3 bolts with heads provided
for
> lock-wiring. Nor do I understand how to lockwire this single bolt - what do
I wire it to?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rolf Wittwer" <rolf(at)dove.net.au> |
Bernie Wrote:
> This is no great problem, but it is easy to find yourself flying with
> crossed controls, eg, you may find she is tending to drop the right wing,
> the ball is way over left and a touch of left rudder and all is balanced
> again, but she cannot be flown by feel.
> , As I say would be interesting to see what difference the addition of
a
> vertical stabilizer would make.
You could try a spring from each side of the firewall to the rudder
pedals, one to the left pedal on the left side and one to the right pedal
on the right side. This should give you self centering.
With a bit of ingenuity an adjustment could be added to provide rudder
trim.
Rolf Wittwer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
If you look at drawing 6SV-4 there is a note at the upper center of the
page stating, 6V7-2 and 6V7-3 not required for the HDS.
I too am interested in the center wing flaps. I just sent an e-mail to Nick
at ZAC asking if and when a flap kit may be available. Have not heard as yet.
Regards,
Bill Morelli
HDS - 6-3798
working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWalsh8045(at)aol.com |
my 912 w/ 100 hrs now just purrs like a kitten.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
RLucka(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> << No, there is very little friction. I found the "V"s in the lower nose
> gear support bearing which were intended to supply centering, provided too
> much friction especially in sideslips, so slipped some polyethlene washers
> under top bearing to lift lower cross bar clears of V's She can now be
> steered with a touch of the toe but has no directional stability, the all
> flying rudder seems happy to lie at any angle.
I looked at the XL's nose gear very carefully at Oshkosh because I'm
working on that area right now. The lower crossbar was at least 1/4"
above the V's, and at the top of the nose gear leg, the round alu.
retaining disc was touching the upper bearing. I'm going to see if I
can get my V's to go below the nose gear crossbar.
Philippe Leroy
Willcox, AZ (601 HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Update and Horizontal Stab Bracket Problem |
>
> Grant, the locking wire for the gear stops works well with the HD and HDS
> models as they use two bolts to locate the gear stop. I haven't seen
> anyone wire the single bolt in the UL.
>
On single bolts that need securing, I like to use serviceable LocTite
#222 Purple or Blue (different #).
Philippe Leroy
Willcox, AZ (601 HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
>
> ++++ Doug, I specifically addressed that with Chris at Oshkosh. He said
> that the flaps can be added to the HDS center section, and that plans would
> be available in "about 2 months". (Same deal on the new canopy front hinging
> system.) I'm about 75% along on my center section and I think at this time
> that I'll send Chris a fax asking what I should NOT finish on the center
> section in order to be able to fit it with the new flap sysem when the plans
> become available. As mentioned earlier, Chris said that the flaps will
> lower the stall speed by 7 mph.
>
> Fred
Personally, I'll avoid the complexity of adding flaps when all one needs
to do for glide path control is a nice forward slip. I realize these
flaps may lower the stall speed by 7 mph, but I'll still take the
simplicity of not having flaps.
Just thinking out loud :)
Philippe Leroy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
I found the "V"s in the lower nose
>> gear support bearing which were intended to supply centering, provided too
>> much friction especially in sideslips, so slipped some polyethlene washers
>> under top bearing to lift lower cross bar clears of V's She can now be
>> steered with a touch of the toe but has no directional stability, the all
>> flying rudder seems happy to lie at any angle.
+++ There was quite a bit of discussion on this a while back. I passed
along copies of what you guys had to say to a friend of mine that is
building a 601 that doesn't have a computor. He thought about all the
comments, went down to a bearing company here in the Kansas City area and
came up with a circular thrust needle bearing. I remember him saying that it
wasn't expensive, fit around the shaft perfectly, and was only about 1/8" of
an inch thick. It reduced the friction of turning the nose wheel/rudder
assembly radically. If anybody wants to know what it is and where to get it,
let me know and I'll find out from him and post the information. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
>I looked at the XL's nose gear very carefully at Oshkosh because I'm
>working on that area right now. The lower crossbar was at least 1/4"
>above the V's, and at the top of the nose gear leg, the round alu.
>retaining disc was touching the upper bearing. I'm going to see if I
>can get my V's to go below the nose gear crossbar.
>Philippe Leroy
>Willcox, AZ (601 HDS)
>
>Hi Phillipe,
The lower crossbar on the nose wheel strut on the XL SHOULD have
been resting on the lower Vee bearing. I had a hand in the assembly of the
XL, and we didn't have time to fix that problem before Oshkosh.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the lower Vee bearing is designed
to
take most of the stress of the nose wheel strut.
I think Fred Hulen might be onto something with the needle bearing
idea. Another option would be to make the angle of the Vee bearing
shallower to allow for easier movement of the strut.
Cheers, Mike.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cps <cps(at)tisd.net> |
I've been trying to figure out how to mount the brakes and rim to the
fork
and for some reason I can't begin to figure out where to start. What
size hole do
I drill for the mains axle and how do I attach brakes.
Chuck
always 1/2 done
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com> |
> +++ There was quite a bit of discussion on this a while back. I passed
> along copies of what you guys had to say to a friend of mine that is
> building a 601 that doesn't have a computor. He thought about all the
> comments, went down to a bearing company here in the Kansas City area and
> came up with a circular thrust needle bearing. I remember him saying that it
> wasn't expensive, fit around the shaft perfectly, and was only about 1/8" of
> an inch thick. It reduced the friction of turning the nose wheel/rudder
> assembly radically. If anybody wants to know what it is and where to get it,
> let me know and I'll find out from him and post the information. Fred
Fred, if it is not much trouble, I think this would be good info to have.
Thanks
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
Doug:
In my opinion there is absolutely no need for flaps on the HDS. As you
know flaps decrease the stall speed at partial deployment and increase drag
at full deployment. They also allow most aircraft to approach in a more
nose down attitude which improves the view of the runway. At 80 mph
approach speed I see -1,000 fpm with the engine at idle. The nose is
pointed well below the horizon giving a good view of the runway. Glide
slope control is a cinch, the aircraft is draggy enough that it slows down
quickly and so it is easy to adjust your approach path with the throttle.
If you plan to invest time and effort in installing flaps I'd try to get a
ride in an HDS first to see if you still think it would be worthwhile.
I noticed an interesting thing today as I was washing the bugs off my
aircraft. The leading edge of the wing was covered with dead bugs but only
the top maybe 8" of the vertical stab had bugs on it. As well the inside
6" of the horizontal stab was clean. This suggests to me that at least the
leading edge of the vertical stab is being blanketed. Anyone else notice
the same thing? I have installed the raised canopy so it's a bit higher
than some.
Regards,
Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> Also, does anyone on the list plan on adding the flaps to their HDS
> that are on
> the 601XL? Will ZAC provide the parts and plans for a retrofit? I am
> at the stage
> on the center wing where they could still be easily added. Thanks for
> your input
> and help.
>
> Doug Pahnke 6 -3736
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
>
>Doug:
>In my opinion there is absolutely no need for flaps on the HDS. As you
>know flaps decrease the stall speed at partial deployment and increase drag
>at full deployment. They also allow most aircraft to approach in a more
>nose down attitude which improves the view of the runway. At 80 mph
>approach speed I see -1,000 fpm with the engine at idle. The nose is
>pointed well below the horizon giving a good view of the runway. Glide
>slope control is a cinch, the aircraft is draggy enough that it slows down
>quickly and so it is easy to adjust your approach path with the throttle.
>If you plan to invest time and effort in installing flaps I'd try to get a
>ride in an HDS first to see if you still think it would be worthwhile.
>
>
>Regards,
>Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>
>
Hi,
What Alan describes for the HDS (and HD) approach is right on the mark.
Throw in a sideslip, and you can get this airplane down and stopped in a
real hurry. Condider also that the entire flap system weighs more than a
few pounds-all the linkages are steel-and that will add to empty weight and
a reduced cruise. On a slicker wing like the XL flaps will be great, but on
the HD and HDS, they're not neccesary. (My opinion).
Cheers, Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Daurizio <daurizio(at)yahoo.com> |
Howdy,
I've got to agree, for what it's worth. I have been flying pipers for
about 15 years, and was reluctant about the 601 because it didn't have
flaps, but one ride up at Flypass in Canada took care of that. That
thing slows down with no problem. In fact, probably because the demo
pilot knew that I would be concerned about it, he held the power on
until we were well high of a normal glidepath, cut the power, and down
we went. We rolled out with a ton of runway to spare. That was in an
HD. Great little plane, I can't wait to start and finish mine!
Tom
---Mike Slaughter wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Doug:
> >In my opinion there is absolutely no need for flaps on the HDS. As
you
> >know flaps decrease the stall speed at partial deployment and
increase drag
> >at full deployment. They also allow most aircraft to approach in a
more
> >nose down attitude which improves the view of the runway. At 80 mph
> >approach speed I see -1,000 fpm with the engine at idle. The nose is
> >pointed well below the horizon giving a good view of the runway.
Glide
> >slope control is a cinch, the aircraft is draggy enough that it
slows down
> >quickly and so it is easy to adjust your approach path with the
throttle.
> >If you plan to invest time and effort in installing flaps I'd try
to get a
> >ride in an HDS first to see if you still think it would be
worthwhile.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Schemmel, Grant" <Schemmel(at)utmc.utc.com> |
Fred
I too would like to know what bearing your friend used - the plastic
bearings I came up with still have quite a bit of friction, enough so
that the springs I put on to center the rudder don't quite do the job.
Thanx
Grant Schemmel
Penrose, CO
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Fred Hulen [SMTP:fhulen(at)primenet.com]
>Sent: Sunday, August 09, 1998 1:11 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL
>
>
>
> I found the "V"s in the lower nose
>>> gear support bearing which were intended to supply centering, provided
>>>too
>>> much friction especially in sideslips, so slipped some polyethlene
>>>washers
>>> under top bearing to lift lower cross bar clears of V's She can now be
>>> steered with a touch of the toe but has no directional stability, the all
>>> flying rudder seems happy to lie at any angle.
>
>+++ There was quite a bit of discussion on this a while back. I passed
>along copies of what you guys had to say to a friend of mine that is
>building a 601 that doesn't have a computor. He thought about all the
>comments, went down to a bearing company here in the Kansas City area and
>came up with a circular thrust needle bearing. I remember him saying that it
>wasn't expensive, fit around the shaft perfectly, and was only about 1/8" of
>an inch thick. It reduced the friction of turning the nose wheel/rudder
>assembly radically. If anybody wants to know what it is and where to get it,
>let me know and I'll find out from him and post the information. Fred
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
| Subject: | Rear Zee Doublers |
I confirm Bill Morelli's info here. I called ZAC when I was updating my plans
and the HDS does not require the doublers because the rear Zee is thicker than
previously.
JKB
> If you look at drawing 6SV-4 there is a note at the upper center of the
> page stating, 6V7-2 and 6V7-3 not required for the HDS.
>
> I too am interested in the center wing flaps. I just sent an e-mail to Nick
> at ZAC asking if and when a flap kit may be available. Have not heard as yet.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Morelli
> HDS - 6-3798
> working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Karnes <jkarnes_wc(at)scoca.ohio.gov> |
Just a note...In the Builders Sequence for the outboard wing, it fails to
mention the tie down ring which must be installed before the nose skin is
riveted down. On the first wing, I had to drill out a bunch of rivets to
get to the spot inside the wing where the ring is attached. Live and
learn...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tie down rings |
You can wait if you have an access panel that will let you get in to put
the nut on. I made an access panel in the outboard wing that allows me to
reach my nav-strobes and also (with a little stretching) allowed me to
install the tie down after the entire wing was completed.
- Andrew (601 HDS)
>
>Just a note...In the Builders Sequence for the outboard wing, it fails to
>mention the tie down ring which must be installed before the nose skin is
>riveted down. On the first wing, I had to drill out a bunch of rivets to
>get to the spot inside the wing where the ring is attached. Live and
>learn...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development)
900 Chelmsford Street
Lowell, MA 01851-8207
Tel: (978) 551-5361
Fax: (978) 551-5351
Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com
Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
| Subject: | WING access ports... |
> You can wait if you have an access panel that will let you get in to put
> the nut on. I made an access panel in the outboard wing that allows me to
> reach my nav-strobes and also (with a little stretching) allowed me to
> install the tie down after the entire wing was completed.
>
> - Andrew (601 HDS)
Andrew! You bright fellow. I was wondering how to get at the backs of my
nav/strobes after sealing up the wingtips. I've been stalling until I complete
testing of the lights. I guess if you were careful enough, you could run a loop
of the cable to the lights near the access port, then you could unplug your
lights and undo the nuts to remove them if need be.
access panels! groovy.
JKB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tie down rings |
>get to the spot inside the wing where the ring is attached. Live and
>learn...
Just had to say this...
Live and learn... Rivet and learn...
________________________________________________________________________________
<<
I just noticed that I may have omitted a critical part on my rear
wing zee. I was
going over some papers included with the plans that had blueprint
corrections on
them for the 601HDS rear wing zee. The part omitted is referenced as
6V7-2 and
6V7-3 "rear zee top and bottom doublers" respectively. However, the
written
assembly instructions (latest edition) makes no mention of these
parts when
assembling the outboard rear zee splice plates (6SV4-2) and all 35
or so A5 rivets
>>
Doug:
The additional parts sounds like they are for the HD wings. Check your HDS
parts list and you will find that these parts (6V7-2 and 6V7-3) are not
listed. You should be OK. Don't drill out those rivets!
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LD_PAHNKE(at)prodigy.com (DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD) |
| Subject: | Re: Help appreciated et.al. |
Yep, there is was in the plans.(last page) Glad to know that I don't
need to re-do the rear wing zee. Thanks for all the responses. About
the flaps,I would like the idea of a lower stall speed but will wait
to see if cost/ effort to install are worth it.As some of you have
said, they aren't necessary. Haven't decided on anything yet.we'll
see
On another issue, I'd like your feed back on this one. This I'm sure
will be controversial, but here goes.... What about an auto pilot??
There is a fellow in San Jose who is advertising a seemingly neat
system for experimental A/C that would do what I would like and that
is a 3-axis electronic auto pilot that will interface with
appropriate GPS systems with the NEMA output for $699. This is
associated wi/ ZAC's links to aviation related products on their web
site. My question is-- will this system work with the MEC servos
included with the 601HDS, rather than the ones that are sold with the
kit? I will try to contact the manufacturer, but thought I'd see if
anyone on the list has thought this through before now.?? Thanks Doug
P. 601HDS in the Midwest
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Join and access information |
Dear Nicolas,
Can you please give me an idea of how much money will the new style XL
forward hinged canopy cost as an upgrade to the HDS side hinged canopy.
My customer in Yuma, AZ, Russ Clark wants to get that for his HDS.
Thank you very much,
Philippe Leroy
Leroy Enterprises, Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com |
| Subject: | Empire Development Autopilot |
>What about an auto pilot??
>There is a fellow in San Jose who is advertising a seemingly neat
>system for experimental A/C that would do what I would like and that
>is a 3-axis electronic auto pilot that will interface with
>appropriate GPS systems with the NEMA output for $699
I believe that Empire Development has gone out of business, and
the autopilot is no longer available from the San Jose address.
BTW, it is really a 2-axis system. (pitch and roll).
It is my understanding that someone back east has taken over the
autopilot sales, but so far I've been unable to make contact.
or after 7 pm at 978-649-3171.
There is another one called Navaid Devices at about twice the
price. Ads in Kitplanes. Some RV6 folks are using this one.
It is single axis.
Also, the 2-axis STec system 30 looks great, but pretty expensive.
cheers,
Glen.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Nose gear thrust bearing |
As promised, here's the information regarding the needle thrust bearing for
the nose gear. My friend purchased the bearing from IBT, Inc. There are
branch locations around the country, but if you don't find an IBT location
near you, let me know and I'll get a complete address that you can order it
from.There are two line items that you need. One is the actual circular
needle roller assembly itself, and the other is a pair of thrust washers
that the needle bearing rolls in between. He didn't measure it, but
remembers the whole thing being about 1/8" thick, and fits the landing gear
leg diameter perfectly. Just slip in on the strut shaft under the top
retaining plate and "presto".. Much less friction when turning the nose
wheel, IF it's not dragging on the "V" plates below.
The needle bearing is IBT item number 85052650, NTA-3244 Torrington Thrust
bearing. only $2.02
Thrust washers are IBE item number 85057080, TRA-3244 Torrington Thrust
bearing. You need 2 of these at $1.10 ea. Not exactly an expensive part
is it! Having seen it, I can't imagine they can sell these things that
cheap. They sold him some kind of special glue to secure the top washer to
the stop plate and the bottom washer to the bearing channel, so they
wouldn't rotate while the needle bearing is moving. In regard to a comment
I read earlier, regarding this top bearing taking all the thrust instead of
the lower "V"'s. With that in mind, he added an additional piece of material
on top of the bearing channel. I'm not that far along so I can't give you
anything more than this for now. Some of you "big spenders" can pop for a
set and let the rest of us that aren't that far along know what you think!
"Soft Landings" Guys Fred (working on center section and landing gear
strut/wheel and brake assemblies)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thilo.Kind(at)clariant.com |
Hi everybody,
drove Friday to Mexico, MO, and picked up a 601 HDS kit on Saturday. BTW: the
whole kit fits in a Lumina Minivan - but make sure, that all seats except the
driver and front passenger seats are removed.
Nic was there on Saturday. He just came back with the XL from Oskosh. I took a
brief look at the plane (had not enough time, since I had to go back to
Delaware). The canopy is really nice. The corners of the instrument panel are
cut out, the hinges (on axpanded tubes from the canopy) are located there. This
area is covered with sheet metal, that is attached to the tubes. I'm sorry, but
it is hard to explain.
However, the 601 HDS canopy can be modified. My hope is, that Zenithair will
have drawings available within the next months.
Nic told me, that they still have to put some work in the XL. My guess is, that
this plane won't be available before next year.
Thilo Kind
working on horizontal stabilizer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | FW: Zenith Aircraft Builders |
Hey Guys: I forwarded a copy of the Soob engine, Avemco, inflight failures
message to Reiner Hoffman at Stratus. He replied (shown below). To make
his replies easier to find I italicized them.
Posting Reiner's message here is with his knowledge and permission.
Tony Gunn
> -----Original Message-----
> From: StratusInc(at)aol.com [SMTP:StratusInc(at)aol.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 4:28 PM
> To: tgunn(at)mardril.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith Aircraft Builders
>
>
> << I did have a discussion with the Avemco reps there who say they are no
> longer providing hull coverage on Soob powered aircraft applications
> until
> after the first 100 hours have been flown off. This is because of 5
> in-flight engine failures (out of 20 aircraft covered) of which 3 of
> those
> engines ran normally when put on a test stand after the crash. Four
> fatalities have occurred in these 5 crashes. While the rep didn't know
> if
> any of the Soob failures were Stratus engines the restriction apparently
> applies to you also.
>
> Can you shed any light on the causes of these inflight failures or make
> any
> suggestions on where we should start looking. Avemco didn't want to
> suggest
> a cause, but said to maybe look at vibration or heat effects on the
> ignition
> coil.
>
> i am very well aware of that.
> these were mostly brand x engines and homemade conversions.
> i could explain whats wrong there but cannot which i hope you understand.
> there is more to the story and if you do some research you will find out
> about
> it.
>
> to date there has been only one failure with our motors leading to an off
> field landing.
> it seemed to be electrical but we have not seen the motor so cannot say
> for
> sure.
> and a zenair builder motor had a distributor go out, which was no problem
> since he got the dual ignition.
> to date we have several engines with well over 500hrs and one approaching
> 1000hrs all without a problem.
> there sure is nothing wrong with the basic engine, but all parts changed
> put on have to be of equal quality. since we have flighttested our motors
> extensively prior to delivering the first ones we had only a few minor
> problems to date.
> but as you can see the good reputation we build can be ruined rather
> quickly.
>
> there are several other insurance companies which will insure only our
> motor,
> homemade conversions cannot be insured anymore.
>
> one thing avemco seems to forget is that 2 stroke rotaxes quit every day
> and
> so do certified motors. these things can happen since all motors
> regardless
> where they come from are mechanical devices which can fail.
>
>
> Several of the Zenith Zodiac users list responded with various
> accountings
> of engine failures of their own; fortunately all of them occurred while
> in
> the pattern, so off-field landings weren't required. I know every engine
> has it's teething problems, but all of these instances coming to light at
> one time is rather disconcerting.
>
> Prior to Oshkosh I thought Soob (and Stratus specifically) had a lock as
> my
> preferred engine. I'm not as confident now. If you have access to the
> Zodiac users list, it might be a good idea to make some suggestions
> there.
>
>
> whats the adress???
>
>
> If you don't I will be glad to forward any response you want to make to
> that
> list, but only with your permission and support. >>
>
> sure you can forward my comments.
>
> reiner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
>
>Hi everybody,
>
>drove Friday to Mexico, MO, and picked up a 601 HDS kit on Saturday.
>Thilo Kind
++++ Welcome the the wonderful world of Zenith builders Thilo! I'm sure
you will enjoy the construction, and you'll find this group of builders a
good source of support. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Schemmel, Grant" <Schemmel(at)utmc.utc.com> |
| Subject: | Nose gear thrust bearing |
Thanks for the info Fred, I'll see if I can get this set ordered.
Grant Schemmel
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Fred Hulen [SMTP:fhulen(at)primenet.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 6:48 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Nose gear thrust bearing
>
>
>As promised, here's the information regarding the needle thrust bearing for
>the nose gear. My friend purchased the bearing from IBT, Inc. There are
>branch locations around the country, but if you don't find an IBT location
>near you, let me know and I'll get a complete address that you can order it
>from.There are two line items that you need. One is the actual circular
>needle roller assembly itself, and the other is a pair of thrust washers
>that the needle bearing rolls in between. He didn't measure it, but
>remembers the whole thing being about 1/8" thick, and fits the landing gear
>leg diameter perfectly. Just slip in on the strut shaft under the top
>retaining plate and "presto".. Much less friction when turning the nose
>wheel, IF it's not dragging on the "V" plates below.
>The needle bearing is IBT item number 85052650, NTA-3244 Torrington Thrust
>bearing. only $2.02
>Thrust washers are IBE item number 85057080, TRA-3244 Torrington Thrust
>bearing. You need 2 of these at $1.10 ea. Not exactly an expensive part
>is it! Having seen it, I can't imagine they can sell these things that
>cheap. They sold him some kind of special glue to secure the top washer to
>the stop plate and the bottom washer to the bearing channel, so they
>wouldn't rotate while the needle bearing is moving. In regard to a comment
>I read earlier, regarding this top bearing taking all the thrust instead of
>the lower "V"'s. With that in mind, he added an additional piece of material
>on top of the bearing channel. I'm not that far along so I can't give you
>anything more than this for now. Some of you "big spenders" can pop for a
>set and let the rest of us that aren't that far along know what you think!
>"Soft Landings" Guys Fred (working on center section and landing gear
>strut/wheel and brake assemblies)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca |
| Subject: | Final Inspection |
Finally had my final inspection and thought I would pass along the results.
It is a 601HDS with Stratus Subaru and in Canada.
First the weight report. It came in at a little over 700 pounds. This is fully
upholstered, panel mount GPS/COMM and intercom, automotive heater core, nose
wheel pant (mains to be done later, just wanted to protect the rad). Had to move
the battery to the rear fuselage area. With my light weight (135 pounds) the CG
is still very close to the forward limit with full header fuel. I may add a
couple pounds ballast in the rear. Am not to concerned with the empty weight as
with my weight and my wife's 100 pounds, we will not be able to reach full
gross.
I think the inspection went well even with 10 snags. Only four will really
require any effort, the other 6 are things like a label, a few tie wraps and a
loose bolt.
The other three are as follows:
1/ I have exposed 4130 that is not protected. This will take a hour or so
to clear and prime or paint. This is the main landing gear brackets and the
upper part of the nose gear.
2/ I moved the battery from the firewall to the rear of the fuselage after
doing my weight and balance, but did not move the battery relay. The inspector
wants this by the battery so the battery cable is not live all the way from
the battery, through the firewall to the starter. This makes sense to me. Should
only take a couple hours to re-route some wires and the solenoid
(definitely will be easier than relocating the battery was, even though that was
much easier than I thought it would be.)
3/ The propeller is out of track and needs to be adjusted. I had never
heard of this before but after discussing it with the inspector, it shouldn't
take more than a couple hours to do.
4/ Carb heat. Zenith says carb heat is not required but the inspectors
words were "this engine will get carb ice". It has dual Bing 64 series carbs
required, he says he will pass it, even though he thinks it will get ice. At
this point I am not sure how to proceed. I have talked to Flypass and
Stratus and they are not aware of anyone with the 912 or the Stratus Subaru
having or ever needing carb heat. Anyone have any comments as to whether
they have carb heat or have experienced carb ice with this carb? The Subaru will
likely have a higher airflow and hence likely a larger temperature drop.
I have also been renting in order to get up to the 100 hours required for me to
fly the first 5 hours (Canadian regs). Now that I am almost there, and the plane
is almost ready I realised that the 100 hours must be PIC time which I am about
25 hours short on (dual time), so I am now also looking for someone to do the
first 5 hours. This is really disappointing since as the time has gotten closer,
I was really looking forward to doing it (once in a lifetime ya know!). However,
can't see spending $2000 in further rental fees with a plane sitting in the
hangar.
Also, following up a few current e mails on the list, I had no insurance problem
getting full hull coverage for the plane, they know it is a Soob. It was
through COPA's insurance company, can't remember off the top of my head who the
carrier is. I don't have the dual ignition option at this time, but after some
of the previous stories, I may put this on before the first flight.
Hugh MacKenzie
C-FXPL
Grimsby, Ont.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
In a message dated 8/12/98 6:35:21 PM, Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca
writes:
<>
I know of a guy in Phoenix who has carb heat on his NSI Soob E-81. E-mail me
directly if you would like his name and phone number. He is close to
completion on a 601HDS.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
>
Way to go Hugh. When I peeked around the corner a few times, I thought
your inspection was going fairly well.
>Finally had my final inspection and thought I would pass along the results.
>
> 4/ Carb heat. Zenith says carb heat is not required but the inspectors
>words were "this engine will get carb ice". It has dual Bing 64 series carbs
>required, he says he will pass it, even though he thinks it will get ice. At
>this point I am not sure how to proceed. I have talked to Flypass and
>Stratus and they are not aware of anyone with the 912 or the Stratus Subaru
>having or ever needing carb heat. Anyone have any comments as to whether
>they have carb heat or have experienced carb ice with this carb? The
Subaru will
>likely have a higher airflow and hence likely a larger temperature drop.
>
This is something we talked about earlier. Chapter 549 requires some form
of carb heat system. The inspectors are not allowed to make up new rules
for specific aircraft so they need some hard engineering data or a letter
from the designer in order to do a variance.
On the technical side, there is no doubt that the carbs on your machine are
way less suseptible to carb ice than my Marvel MA3SPA. This is largely due
to the throat design which doesn't have much in the way of a venturi. I
have been running these style carbs on motorcycles for years (in the
mountains of B.C. - on the wet coast) and never once had a carb ice problem.
>I have also been renting in order to get up to the 100 hours required for
me to
>fly the first 5 hours (Canadian regs). Now that I am almost there, and the
plane
>is almost ready I realised that the 100 hours must be PIC time which I am
about
>25 hours short on (dual time), so I am now also looking for someone to do the
>first 5 hours. This is really disappointing since as the time has gotten
closer,
>I was really looking forward to doing it (once in a lifetime ya know!).
However,
>can't see spending $2000 in further rental fees with a plane sitting in the
>hangar.
>
Shouldn't be a problem to find volunteers!!!!
>Also, following up a few current e mails on the list, I had no insurance
problem
>getting full hull coverage for the plane, they know it is a Soob. It was
>through COPA's insurance company, can't remember off the top of my head
who the
>carrier is. I don't have the dual ignition option at this time, but after
some
>of the previous stories, I may put this on before the first flight.
>
It's the British Aviation Insurance Group and they didn't even ask me if my
plane had even been test flown. Not bad.
Cheers
Craig
C-FTAZ
from
Smithville (the hub of the Nation)
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Daurizio <daurizio(at)yahoo.com> |
Hello All,
I would like to publicly solicit some advice to help me decide between
the 601HD and HDS.
What I've got/heard for the HD:
1. Price. $1,000 is a pretty significant difference.
2. Short field and climb performance. Not that big a deal, but worth
considering.
3. Somewhat quicker/easier build? This is what I have heard.
What I've got/heard for the HDS:
1. Cruise efficiency/speed. If published numbers are reasonably
attainable, I like the increased range.
2. Lighter Aileron feel. This is what I have heard, and, from flying
the HD and having to really push that stick sideways, I like the sound
of it.
3. Better Pitch Stability. This is what I have heard. Sounds good to
me though.
Anyone have anything to modify or add?
I am almost ready to order the tail kit. I figured I'd start out with
that, since I think I can build it in my apartment over the winter,
and get the rest of the kit in the spring.
Thanks. Have fun.
Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Dowler <dowler(at)suhep.phy.syr.edu> |
Tom,
If speed has anything to with why you'd consider the HDS, you might
want to wait for the XL.
Mike
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Tom Daurizio wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I would like to publicly solicit some advice to help me decide between
> the 601HD and HDS.
>
> What I've got/heard for the HD:
> 1. Price. $1,000 is a pretty significant difference.
> 2. Short field and climb performance. Not that big a deal, but worth
> considering.
> 3. Somewhat quicker/easier build? This is what I have heard.
>
> What I've got/heard for the HDS:
> 1. Cruise efficiency/speed. If published numbers are reasonably
> attainable, I like the increased range.
> 2. Lighter Aileron feel. This is what I have heard, and, from flying
> the HD and having to really push that stick sideways, I like the sound
> of it.
> 3. Better Pitch Stability. This is what I have heard. Sounds good to
> me though.
>
> Anyone have anything to modify or add?
>
> I am almost ready to order the tail kit. I figured I'd start out with
> that, since I think I can build it in my apartment over the winter,
> and get the rest of the kit in the spring.
>
> Thanks. Have fun.
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
>
>Hello All,
>I would like to publicly solicit some advice to help me decide between
>the 601HD and HDS.
>
>What I've got/heard for the HD:
>1. Price. $1,000 is a pretty significant difference.
>2. Short field and climb performance. Not that big a deal, but worth
>considering.
>3. Somewhat quicker/easier build? This is what I have heard.
>
>What I've got/heard for the HDS:
>1. Cruise efficiency/speed. If published numbers are reasonably
>attainable, I like the increased range.
>2. Lighter Aileron feel. This is what I have heard, and, from flying
>the HD and having to really push that stick sideways, I like the sound
>of it.
>3. Better Pitch Stability. This is what I have heard. Sounds good to
>me though.
>
>Hi Tom, I started out with the HD, and after 350 hrs, switched to the HDS
wings. So here's my 2 cents (Canadian) worth.
HD:
1.Price. By the time your finished building this entire airplane, $1000
won't seem much of a difference.
2.Short field and climb. The HD climbs much better than the HDS, but we're
talking a difference of 1000'/min for the HDS vs 1400-1500 for the HD (solo
numbers). Compared to a 152, either of the 2 designs climbs like the
proverbial bat out of hell. Short field is where the HD shines. I've put
the HD into fields I wouldn't think about putting the HDS into.
3.The HDS wing is a little trickier to build with the taper, and requires
more setup and attention to shimming during construction, but overall not
much of a consideration. The wing panels are smaller, and that part of the
wing construction is actually easier on the HDS.
HDS:
1.Expect a real world difference of 12-15 MPH between the wings.
2.Defintely a lighter aileron feel, and much more nimble in the air, but
you could put the hinged ailerons on the HD.
3.The HDS is noticably more stable in pitch and yaw in flight (increased
wing loading).
4.Oh, there is no number 4.
Hope this helps, cheers, Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Daurizio <daurizio(at)yahoo.com> |
Hey Mike,
Thanks for the input, and thanks to everyone else who has offered
advice already!
The XL is attractive, but out of my price range. Especially
considering the fact that they are demoing it with the Jabiru 3300,
which is a $17,000 engine! (Appx. cost of firewall forward kit from
Watson in canada - US dollars, vs. appx. 11,000 for the full 2200 kit.)
Are you building one in Syracuse? I'm in Rochester.
Tom
---Michael Dowler wrote:
>
>
> Tom,
> If speed has anything to with why you'd consider the HDS, you
might
> want to wait for the XL.
> Mike
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NOLIES4US(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Avemco Insurance |
I put a line in the top of the expansion tank. With a 13 lb. cap the press is
in the 7 to 10 lb. range.
I found that keeping the tank about 70% full there is enough expansion room
to not over flow yet always keep a pressure indicated.
If you run a full exp. tank with an over flow jug as I first did if the engine
warms up on takeoff then cools a bit in cruise the press can drop to zero when
coolant cools a bit.
Bill J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NOLIES4US(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: WING access ports... |
When I skinned my wings I aligned the skin with the trailing edge, which left
an opening at tip.
I then installed nut plats and skinned the rest of wing tip with .016 and
screws, this gives access to lighting and end of wing.
Bill J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Weight and Balance... |
Just got done reading an article about how easy it is to make your plane too
heavy. Wanted to start weighing each major components as I finished to know
whether or not I'm on track for the final empty weight.
Does any one have the goal weight for each major component (wing,
stabilizer, etc.)?
Thanks,
Don Honabach
601HDS - S/N 6- 3770
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Weight and Balance... |
Ralph,
>>Don,
>>
>>Please, more info on the article. All of us would probably benefit
>>from it.
>>
>
>
Went ahead and placed a copy of the article up on the website. It's only
available at this address:
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac/blight.html
Thanks,
Don Honabach - Tempe, AZ
601HDS - Working on Outboard Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Charles E. Freas" <cfreas(at)flash.net> |
Hi All,
I just subscribed to the list, so greetings from Marietta, GA.
I have been considering a Pulsar kit for some time. However, what once was
a relatively low cost, high bang-for-the-buck airplane, is quickly being
upgraded into a different class (I wonder what Mark Brown thinks?). As my
funds are approaching the point where I can purchase a kit, I have started
re-evaluating my needs and desires. In the past week, I have become very
interested with the Zodiac 601 HDS and XL (info pack is on the way). Below
are a couple of the things that attracted me to the Pulsar.
1. High performance-to-cost ratio. (Well, it used to have)
2. Trailer to Airport. (Am I overly concerned with the cost of keeping my
plane at the airport?)
I would appreciate your thoughts on my impending decision and whether the
Zodiac might be a better choice. I look forward to hearing from you.
Chuck
601 builder to be?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 or Pulsar? |
>
>Hi All,
>
>I just subscribed to the list, so greetings from Marietta, GA.
>
>I have been considering a Pulsar kit for some time. In the past week, I
have become very
>interested with the Zodiac 601 HDS and XL (info pack is on the way). Below
>are a couple of the things that attracted me to the Pulsar.
>
>1. High performance-to-cost ratio. (Well, it used to have)
>
>2. Trailer to Airport. (Am I overly concerned with the cost of keeping my
>plane at the airport?)
>
>I would appreciate your thoughts on my impending decision and whether the
>Zodiac might be a better choice. I look forward to hearing from you.
>
>Chuck
>601 builder to be?
>Hi Chuck-welcome.
> Although I've never flown one, I know the Canadian
distibutor (at least he was 2 years ago) of the Pulsar, and have spoken to
him at length about this airplane.
I wanted to build one of these toys at one time, 'cause they
defintely are faster than our beloved 601s. A very clean, slick airplane,
sort of a mini Lancair. My dreams were shattered when I sat in one-the
cabin is very small, with very little elbow and head room. I'm 5'11, and my
head was hitting the canopy without a headset. My buddy, Mike Fothergill
(another 601 driver) who is 6'3" couldn't even sit in the thing. There is
also very limited baggage capacity, which I find to be a real plus in the 601.
I'd hoped when the Kitfox people bought the rights to the Pulsar,
that
they would increase the size of the cabin area by about 10%-but so far, no
joy. I was told the original designer was short, and didn't want to change
the design.
If I was 5"6, and didn't care about baggage capacity, I would
have a Pulsar in my hanger now, because this is a very nice airplane.
But I'm not, and I do, so I don't.
Cheers, Mike
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Where is Robert Nuckolls |
A week ago I posted a note asking if anyone knew how to get in touch with
Robert Nuckolls. I had left two phone messages on his answering machine
informing him I had called to order his book on avionics, but no reply.
Finally gave up waiting and mailed in payment well over a month ago for his
book and never got it. One of you replied asking if I had e-mailed him. I
hadn't, but did so immediately, and still NOTHING!! Does anyone know this
man, and could ask him to send me my order. Or, does anyone have a copy of
his book you want to sell? This all seems really weird... he has a web
page soliciting orders for his book but doen't return calls about it or ship
when a check is sent in. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Where is Robert Nuckolls |
>This all seems really weird... he has a web
>page soliciting orders for his book but doen't return calls about it or ship
>when a check is sent in.
Fred,
I even gave him my credit card number a while back trying to get his book.
(not too slick huh!)
I too would like the book as I need to start wiring and could use some
direction.
I sent a couple of e-mails recently but haven't heard a thing!!! I'll
probably have to cancel my credit card if I don't hear something soon or
worse if I find charges I didn't make on my bill.
This guy certainly needs to go to "How to run a business" school.
Regards,
Bill Morelli
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Westridge <jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com> |
| Subject: | Final Inspection |
Way to go.
Bright day in the land of Oz. I FINALLY got my metal I ordered from
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty today. Now I can begin to mark out fuselage
and prepare to cut metal. Anybody ever use "cut off" wheels to cut out
panels? I've got snips but a friend suggested cut off wheels insead. Claims
smoother cuts, less distortion on edges and easier to "finish".
Dave W
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Cousins [SMTP:cousins(at)globalserve.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:13 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Inspection
>
Way to go Hugh. When I peeked around the corner a few times, I thought
your inspection was going fairly well.
>Finally had my final inspection and thought I would pass along the
results.
>
> 4/ Carb heat. Zenith says carb heat is not required but the
inspectors
>words were "this engine will get carb ice". It has dual Bing 64 series
carbs
not
>required, he says he will pass it, even though he thinks it will get ice.
At
>this point I am not sure how to proceed. I have talked to Flypass and
>Stratus and they are not aware of anyone with the 912 or the Stratus
Subaru
>having or ever needing carb heat. Anyone have any comments as to
whether
>they have carb heat or have experienced carb ice with this carb? The
Subaru will
>likely have a higher airflow and hence likely a larger temperature
drop.
>
This is something we talked about earlier. Chapter 549 requires some form
of carb heat system. The inspectors are not allowed to make up new rules
for specific aircraft so they need some hard engineering data or a letter
from the designer in order to do a variance.
On the technical side, there is no doubt that the carbs on your machine are
way less suseptible to carb ice than my Marvel MA3SPA. This is largely due
to the throat design which doesn't have much in the way of a venturi. I
have been running these style carbs on motorcycles for years (in the
mountains of B.C. - on the wet coast) and never once had a carb ice
problem.
>I have also been renting in order to get up to the 100 hours required for
me to
>fly the first 5 hours (Canadian regs). Now that I am almost there, and the
plane
>is almost ready I realised that the 100 hours must be PIC time which I am
about
>25 hours short on (dual time), so I am now also looking for someone to do
the
>first 5 hours. This is really disappointing since as the time has gotten
closer,
>I was really looking forward to doing it (once in a lifetime ya know!).
However,
>can't see spending $2000 in further rental fees with a plane sitting in
the
>hangar.
>
Shouldn't be a problem to find volunteers!!!!
>Also, following up a few current e mails on the list, I had no insurance
problem
>getting full hull coverage for the plane, they know it is a Soob. It was
>through COPA's insurance company, can't remember off the top of my head
who the
>carrier is. I don't have the dual ignition option at this time, but after
some
>of the previous stories, I may put this on before the first flight.
>
It's the British Aviation Insurance Group and they didn't even ask me if my
plane had even been test flown. Not bad.
Cheers
Craig
C-FTAZ
from
Smithville (the hub of the Nation)
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Ferris <ferret(at)forbin.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 or Pulsar? |
I am currently building a 601HD, but I came close to choosing the Pulsar.
Several factors led to me choosing the Zodiac.
1. I felt more comfortable with sheet metal construction. When considering
a composite airplane, the workshop is required to be much more
temperature/humidity controlled, and dust free. Living in the Midwest,
regulating temperture in an acceptable range would require heat and air
conditioning.
2. The build time of the Zodiac is half that of the Pulsar.
3. The Pulsar has good cruise speed numbers, but the short field capability
of the Zodiac is much better. A big thing for me is to fly into some short
grass strips to do some fishing.
4. Company/design stability. The Zodiac design has been around a long
time, and lots of them have been built. The designer and his sons (for
that matter everyone else in the comapny) are extremely helpful and good to
work with.
These are just a few thoughts. I have the tail section built, and starting
on wings. So far the parts are very nice quality. The only slight knock
is the plans not being exceptionally fluid; meaning you really need to plan
ahead to make sure you don't do something you shouldn't do at the time.
Greg F.
>
>Hi All,
>
>I just subscribed to the list, so greetings from Marietta, GA.
>
>I have been considering a Pulsar kit for some time. However, what once was
>a relatively low cost, high bang-for-the-buck airplane, is quickly being
>upgraded into a different class (I wonder what Mark Brown thinks?). As my
>funds are approaching the point where I can purchase a kit, I have started
>re-evaluating my needs and desires. In the past week, I have become very
>interested with the Zodiac 601 HDS and XL (info pack is on the way). Below
>are a couple of the things that attracted me to the Pulsar.
>
>1. High performance-to-cost ratio. (Well, it used to have)
>
>2. Trailer to Airport. (Am I overly concerned with the cost of keeping my
>plane at the airport?)
>
>I would appreciate your thoughts on my impending decision and whether the
>Zodiac might be a better choice. I look forward to hearing from you.
>
>Chuck
>601 builder to be?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Karnes <jkarnes_wc(at)scoca.ohio.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Where is Robert Nuckolls |
I sent an e-mail yesterday to Bob and he responded the next day. In his
reply, he stated that the 8th edition of his book is now going to the
publishers.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com>
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 10:35 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Where is Robert Nuckolls
>
>
>A week ago I posted a note asking if anyone knew how to get in touch with
>Robert Nuckolls. I had left two phone messages on his answering machine
>informing him I had called to order his book on avionics, but no reply.
>Finally gave up waiting and mailed in payment well over a month ago for his
>book and never got it. One of you replied asking if I had e-mailed him. I
>hadn't, but did so immediately, and still NOTHING!! Does anyone know this
>man, and could ask him to send me my order. Or, does anyone have a copy of
>his book you want to sell? This all seems really weird... he has a web
>page soliciting orders for his book but doen't return calls about it or
ship
>when a check is sent in. Fred
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thilo.Kind(at)clariant.com |
| Subject: | Re: 601 or Pulsar? |
>have been considering a Pulsar kit for some time. However, what once was
>a relatively low cost, ...
>
>I would appreciate your thoughts on my impending decision and whether the
>Zodiac might be a better choice. I look forward to hearing from you.
>
>Chuck
>601 builder to be?
A few month ago, I had to make a similar decision. The composite airplanes are
all look nice,
performance is better than metal planes etc.
Being an engineer for plastic technology I know a lot about this composite
stuff - I'm building now
a 601 HDS. That should tell you something. Here are a few reasons, why I
selected a all-metal plane:
- Working with composites is messy (you don't get this stuff from your hands
for weeks)
- Working with comosites is quite dangerous (styrol emissions etc.)
- You need to enviromental controlled workshop (and still get the emissions out
of the workshop)
- The home builder normally does not have the test equipment to check, whether
the parts built have the required strength ( e.g. lamination between fiber and
resin).
Thilo Kind
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Where is Robert Nuckolls |
John Karnes wrote:
>
>
> I sent an e-mail yesterday to Bob and he responded the next day. In his
> reply, he stated that the 8th edition of his book is now going to the
> publishers.
I checked out his web site a couple of months ago, looking for an excerpt or something
to give
me an idea of what his book is like, the level of technical detail, clarity of
writing, etc..
Not finding anything to convince me that it was worth the $$, I have held off.
Is there any
place now to get a sample or a good review of the usefulness of this book?
Thanks,
Grant Corriveau
6-2220 HDS
Montreal
respect - certainly as safely as a 'low time' pilot who has
only 100 hours in a Zodiac).
Are there any specifications in the regs as to licence level, experience, etc.
(ATPL vs.
PPL?? etc. etc?). Where can I look this up?
Thanks again,
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 601 or Pulsar? |
Charles E. Freas wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just subscribed to the list, so greetings from Marietta, GA.
>
> I have been considering a Pulsar kit for some time. However, what once was
> a relatively low cost, high bang-for-the-buck airplane, is quickly being
> upgraded into a different class (I wonder what Mark Brown thinks?). As my
> funds are approaching the point where I can purchase a kit, I have started
> re-evaluating my needs and desires. In the past week, I have become very
> interested with the Zodiac 601 HDS and XL (info pack is on the way). Below
> are a couple of the things that attracted me to the Pulsar.
>
> 1. High performance-to-cost ratio. (Well, it used to have)
>
> 2. Trailer to Airport. (Am I overly concerned with the cost of keeping my
> plane at the airport?)
>
> I would appreciate your thoughts on my impending decision and whether the
> Zodiac might be a better choice. I look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Chuck
> 601 builder to be?
Hi Chuck,
So, decision point approaches!!
If you do go with the Zenair, I suspect you'll never have any serious regrets.
They are a
stable company and they'll be around a long time yet to support their product.
Just before
making my decision for the Zodiac, I was looking at Jim Bede's latest (the BD 12/14)
and I'm
still looking -- but I haven't seen anything beyond the conceptual packages I bought.
I was also looking at the Pulsar, but ruled it out due to cockpit size (as someone
already
pointed out). Also, I had never worked with metal or 'plastic', but given my lack
of
expertise as a craftsman, I decided that the aluminum skills would be faster to
acquire. I've
still never worked with the plastics, etc., but the aluminum construction is very
satisfying.
Even if I only have an hour to put into the project, I can come away with some
tangible piece
of work done.
Also, all my mistakes (so far :-) have been 'recoverable' at a reasonable cost
in terms of
time and $$. (I read some awful stories of people screwing up the plastic aircraft
w.r.t.
improper bonding; gluing; temperatures; etc. who had to throw away the entire spar
assembly!!
ouch.)
Also with a basement wordshop, I was concerned with fumes involved when working
with
fibreglass/plastic aircraft. The aluminum is pretty 'family' friendly in terms
of being able
to live in the same dwelling during construction.
Finally, I thought that the Zodiac HDS model is a nice balance between simplicity
of
construction and operation with good looks and performance. Given the right paint
scheme, the
HDS looks pretty sporty.
All the best with your final decision.
Grant Corriveau
601HDS
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Gould <rgould1(at)ix.netcom.com> |
Jeremy Casey wrote:
>
>
> I forgot a P.S. about the powerplant thing...Mark Langford's type 4 page
> mentions a prop shaft system for the VW engines by Great Plains. There is a
> page about it (and other things ) at...
>
> http://greatplainsas.com/newproducts.html
>
> This would be a super-simple system, that would have to be reliable because
> of the sheer simplicity... And if anyone worries about putting your prop on
> the end of a shaft (gyroscopic forces???) Look at the Quicksilver
> ultralights, they do it with great success and the P-39 Airacobra of WW2 was
> mid-engined and had about an 8-foot prop shaft running right thru the
> cockpit!!!
>
> Jeremy Casey jrcasey(at)mindspring.com
Theo:
Take a look at the ribs on this web site.
Robin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca |
| Subject: | Final Inspection |
Grant:
I believe there is some info on this in the AIP but not sure (am at work and
have no documents here). It was definitely in some of the RAA/EAA documentation
I received. I have to look it up again when I get home.
I believe it says only PIC (Pilot In Command) time, not time on type. Also don't
think it says anything about licence level.
I'll see what I can find out this week end.
Hugh MacKenzie
C-FXPL
Grimsby, Ont.
-----Original Message-----
From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail
Sent: Friday, August 14, 1998 12:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Final Inspection
W.R.T. that 100 hours - is that 100 hours on type? or total time? Where is the
reg. written?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Karnes <jkarnes_wc(at)scoca.ohio.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
>Way to go.
>
>Bright day in the land of Oz. I FINALLY got my metal I ordered from
>Aircraft Spruce and Specialty today. Now I can begin to mark out fuselage
>and prepare to cut metal. Anybody ever use "cut off" wheels to cut out
>panels? I've got snips but a friend suggested cut off wheels insead. Claims
>smoother cuts, less distortion on edges and easier to "finish".
>
>Dave W
>
I use the reinforced cut-off wheels on my Dremel tool and they work great,
especially for small cuts. I used the cut-off wheel to cut out the "window"
for the elevator trim tab servo and can't imagine using tin snips to attempt
that particular job. For longer cuts, such as the nose skin on the outboard
wing, I used the snips and was happy with the results.
John K.
601 HDS w/Stratus Subaru
Tail done, outboard wings 90% done
Waverly, OH
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Karnes <jkarnes_wc(at)scoca.ohio.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
->Finally had my final inspection and thought I would pass along the
results.
>
>It is a 601HDS with Stratus Subaru and in Canada.
>
Had to move
>the battery to the rear fuselage area.
> 2/ I moved the battery from the firewall to the rear of the fuselage
after
>doing my weight and balance, but did not move the battery relay. The
inspector
>wants this by the battery so the battery cable is not live all the way
from
>the battery, through the firewall to the starter. This makes sense to me.
Should
>only take a couple hours to re-route some wires and the solenoid
>(definitely will be easier than relocating the battery was, even though
that was
>much easier than I thought it would be.)
Regarding this move of the battery: Did you ground the battery to the
airframe near the new location?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mackenzie, Hugh" <Hugh.Mackenzie(at)bailey.ca> |
| Subject: | Final Inspection |
Very good question.
No. I made the decision a long time ago not to use the frame as the
return for any of the electric's (rightly or wrongly).
However, the inspector asked why I did this. He said it was common
practice and was perfectly acceptable to have used the frame as the
return, even for the cranking amps.
For those of you who have not got to this point yet, I hope this helps
you make your decision. I have thought about taking the return wire out
when I move the solenoid, we'll see (would save a pound or two of
cable!).
Hugh MacKenzie
C-FXPL
Grimsby, Ontario
-----Original Message-----
From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail
Sent: Friday, August 14, 1998 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Final Inspection
Regarding this move of the battery: Did you ground the battery to the
airframe near the new location?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mackenzie, Hugh" <Hugh.Mackenzie(at)bailey.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
Grant:
I believe there is some info on this in the AIP but not sure (am at work
and have no documents here). It was definitely in some of the RAA/EAA
documentation I received. I have to look it up again when I get home.
I believe it says only PIC (Pilot In Command) time, not time on type.
Also don't think it says anything about licence level.
I'll see what I can find out this week end.
Hugh MacKenzie
C-FXPL
Grimsby, Ont.
-----Original Message-----
From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail
Sent: Friday, August 14, 1998 12:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Final Inspection
W.R.T. that 100 hours - is that 100 hours on type? or total time? Where
is the
reg. written?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
Hugh (and company);
100 hours of pilot in command is a definate requirement to fly the first 5
hours off on your new homebuilt. As far as the regulation is concerned,
the 100 hours could be in a 747 (but not in an ultralight).
This is contained in several sources, but you will see it right on the back
of your (Transport Canada) flight permit that will be issued by your
inspector after you have cleared your snags. Your flight inspector will
(if doing his job, and he will) explain all of the restrictions including
the 100 hour PIC requirement to you as he issues the permit.
On using the frame for ground - this is standard practice and Zenair does
this in the certified CH2000.
Hope to see you in the air real soon.
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Where is Robert Nuckolls |
>Does anyone know this man, and could ask him to send me my order.
Fred,
I sent an e-mail to Robert Nuckolls last night and got a reply today.
Here is what he said:
I just put the battery chapter to bed this morning.
Got some work to do on the contactors chapter and
foldouts. If I'm a good boy and keep my head down,
we'll go to press next week. Takes 10 days to get books
back.
You may want to try another e-mail and ask about your check.
Regards,
Bill Morelli
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Karnes" <karnes(at)zoomnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
I will try to take all grounds to the battery ground as you are obviously
doing. I fear, however, that my plane (601 HDS with wing tanks and the 8
gal. D tank) will need the same location for my battery and I will be faced
with the same solution you have had to live with...
John Karnes
karnes(at)zoomnet.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Mackenzie, Hugh <Hugh.Mackenzie(at)bailey.ca>
Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Final Inspection
>
>Very good question.
>
>No. I made the decision a long time ago not to use the frame as the
>return for any of the electric's (rightly or wrongly).
>
>However, the inspector asked why I did this. He said it was common
>practice and was perfectly acceptable to have used the frame as the
>return, even for the cranking amps.
>
>For those of you who have not got to this point yet, I hope this helps
>you make your decision. I have thought about taking the return wire out
>when I move the solenoid, we'll see (would save a pound or two of
>cable!).
>
>Hugh MacKenzie
>
>C-FXPL
>
>Grimsby, Ontario
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail
>Sent: Friday, August 14, 1998 3:33 PM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at INTERNET-MAIL
>Cc: Mackenzie, Hugh
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Final Inspection
>
>
>
>Regarding this move of the battery: Did you ground the battery to the
>airframe near the new location?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: First flights |
Craig Cousins wrote:
>
>
> Hugh (and company);
>
> 100 hours of pilot in command is a definate requirement to fly the first 5
> hours off on your new homebuilt. As far as the regulation is concerned,
> the 100 hours could be in a 747 (but not in an ultralight).
Thanks, Craig. Regs can be funny, can't they. Surely someone with 100 hours on
the Zodiac
AUL would be in good shape to test fly his own 601 HD...
> On using the frame for ground - this is standard practice and Zenair does
> this in the certified CH2000.
Is it standard practice to use a negative or positive ground? I know cars used
to have the
negative pole grounded, but haven't they switched to positive ground because it
reduces
electolysis/corrosion...?? I'm not sure where I heard that.... Any comments, Craig?
Thanks again for the feedback,
This list is a real treasurehouse of information
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Lee <rleebobl(at)sprynet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 701 or 601 on floats |
I have seen the pics of the 601HD on floats at the Flypass site, and was wondering
how this
configuration would compare to a 701 on floats powered by the same Rotax 912?
Is the takeoff run similar? Landing? Cruise speed?
Has anyone had time in both aircraft who could respond with the characteristics?
Of course the ideal solution is to have several planes...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Wing Locker Channel |
Drawing 6SV-4 shows the wing locker channel with an "L" (supplied) attached
to the bottom. No "L"'s are show attached to the sides.
In the build manual for the OB wings, page V22 shows "L"'s on the sides of
the wing locker channel?
Is anyone / everyone adding these side "L"'s?
Regards,
Bill Morelli
HDS - 6-3798
working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
| Subject: | Re: First flights |
>> 100 hours of pilot in command is a definate requirement to fly the first 5
>> hours off on your new homebuilt. As far as the regulation is concerned,
>> the 100 hours could be in a 747 (but not in an ultralight).
>
>Thanks, Craig. Regs can be funny, can't they. Surely someone with 100
hours on the Zodiac
>AUL would be in good shape to test fly his own 601 HD...
>
Grant - if you had 100 hours PIC in a Canadian Advanced Ultralight under a
standard Private Pilot License, I believe that you may be able to get that
past Transport Canada as meeting the requirement (if you talk to them real
nice). This would be a bit of an unusual case and would probably have to
be considered on it's own merits. The neat thing about all of these rules
is that somewhere within the government, there is a civil servant who has
the authority to make exceptions (you just have to locate that person).
>> On using the frame for ground - this is standard practice and Zenair does
>> this in the certified CH2000.
>
>Is it standard practice to use a negative or positive ground? I know cars
used to have the
>negative pole grounded, but haven't they switched to positive ground
because it reduces
>electolysis/corrosion...?? I'm not sure where I heard that.... Any
comments, Craig?
Yiiippes - good electro-chemistry theory but I doubt you will find anything
with a positive ground outside of the British automotive industry. All of
your electronics purchased in North America will be negative ground.
Cheers
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norris <rnorris4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Locker Channel |
Bill Morelli wrote:
> Drawing 6SV-4 shows the wing locker channel with an "L" (supplied) attached
> to the bottom. No "L"'s are show attached to the sides.
>
> In the build manual for the OB wings, page V22 shows "L"'s on the sides of
> the wing locker channel?
>
> Is anyone / everyone adding these side "L"'s?
On one side of the channel, you can add an L the whole length. On the
other side, the channel crosses right over a lightening hole in the rib,
so the most you can do is add an L part way, then a very small L (a tab
really) at the top. That's what I did. When I went to OSH, I noticed the
factory plane had an L on one side only, and nothing on the other side.
I think the locker channel is only required if you cut out the big hole
for the locker door.
Rob Norris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
>
Tom:
I have an HDS with 25 hours on it. My thoughts on some of your questions
based on my limited experience.
> 2. Short field and climb performance. Not that big a deal, but worth
> considering.
I fl from a 4,000 ft elevation airfield and so far have only flown in the
summer so at higher density altitudes than this. With a 100 hp Subaru
engine I have plenty of climb performance.
> 3. Somewhat quicker/easier build? This is what I have heard.
The only difference between the HD and the HDS are the outer wing panels.
I guess the tapered wing may be marginally harder to build but I wouldn't
think it could be a significant difference. It also doesn't have the
panels at the end outboard of the ailerons so this will save some time.
> What I've got/heard for the HDS:
> 1. Cruise efficiency/speed. If published numbers are reasonably
> attainable, I like the increased range.
The HDS will cruise a bit faster but with the fat wings it isn't a rocket
ship.
> 2. Lighter Aileron feel. This is what I have heard, and, from flying
> the HD and having to really push that stick sideways, I like the sound
> of it.
I think the aileron length (and therfore the length of the "hinge") is the
same for both models so I wouldn't expect a difference. I built some time
on a 601 UL before flying my HDS and I didn't notice any difference between
the two other than a faster roll rate in the HDS. The faster roll response
probably means that you deflect the ailerons a bit less in the HDS which
will make the ailerons feel a bit lighter.
> 3. Better Pitch Stability. This is what I have heard. Sounds good to
> me though.
> The HDS does what you expect, trimmed for level flight the nose will drop
if power is reduced and rise if more power is added. The HDs that I have
been in (2 in total) seem less influenced by airspeed.
> Anyone have anything to modify or add?
I find the HDS a bit easier to land because it floats less in ground effect
than the HD.
The HDS has a higher wing loading so it will also stall at a higher
airspeed but on the plus side it is less affected by turbulence.
> I am almost ready to order the tail kit. I figured I'd start out with
> that, since I think I can build it in my apartment over the winter,
> and get the rest of the kit in the spring.
Good luck with the choice, I hope this helps.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> |
Fred Hulen wrote:
> Hey Guys... help me out. At Oshkosh I dropped by Avemco and got a quote
> from them on insureing my 601 HDS when it's done. I'm age 59, and they
> quoted me $1825.00 annually with what he called "pretty standard liability
> coverage"
Wow ! They love money over there !
In France they charge $120 for a single seat and $360 for a 2-seat (third
party mandatory insurance with unlimited coverage).
Optional insurance for damage to the aircraft is annually 10% of the machine price.
Claude
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Metric stuff |
Thilo.Kind(at)clariant.com wrote:
The only thing, that I couldn't find was a metric measurement tape.
> I checked almost every hardware store here in Delaware. So I called my mother
> in Germany - they have metric tapes all over the place - and she will send me
> one.
Hi.
Don't worry, if you need metric stuff like tapes, drill bits (1mm to 10mm with
0.1mm steps then 10 to 30 with 0.5mm steps), nuts, rods, etc... just let me know.
Claude
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> |
Bernie Gunn wrote:
> Rumours of a new French carbon fibre ultralight at Sun 'n Fun, reputed to
> cruise at 180mph with Rotax 912 and be fully aerobatic. If we only live long
> enough.
Maybe you think of the MCR01, designed by Michel Colomban, the one who designed
the Cri-Cri, the smallest twin, 154 lbs, now the smallest twin jet since she flew
in May with 2 propane jets (dutch made, 40lbs thrust, 110,000rpm, 50hrs TBO,
$8,500 each).
I wish you to live long enough. However if you're still alive, you can have one
right now. Just send a money order.
If you belong to the club of those always looking after 3 cents to make one buck,
you can build one for $42,000 only.
I flew it, 180mph is no lies, and made few loops. Stressed at +6-3 but not given
as fully aerobatic.
It's actually, with the german "Fascination" the best miles per gallon.
Claude.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
>
>The NSI Subaru conversion uses an Ellison throttle body fuel injection unit
>which requires carb heat. NSI supplies carb heat via a conventional heat
>muff around the muffler. I haven't had any cold weather flying experience
>yet to be able to comment from personal experience on its necessity. It
>seems to me that the controlling factor is the induction system and not the
>engine type but I'm no expert.
>
>Regards,
>Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>
>
Alan:
Your set up seems quite conventional. I spoke with Jamie (Hugh's
inspector) about this his particular installation. It seems that the
design with the Bing carbs has the engine dumping the moist crankcase fumes
into a port at the throat of the carb.
So we go back to these Soob powered units that were insured by Avemco,
crashed, but then ran normally on the ground. Were these classic carb ice
situations??
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
| Subject: | Zenair open house |
If anyone is interested, the Zenair open house in Midland is on September 5
at the Midland/Huronia airport.
Unicom freq 122.7
By road, follow airport signs at intersection of hwy 12 and 93.
Hmmm - I wonder why they didn't combine this with the RAA fly-in in July???
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
>So we go back to these Soob powered units that were insured by Avemco,
>crashed, but then ran normally on the ground. Were these classic carb ice
>situations??
>
>Craig
++++ Craig, Has anyone posted, or does anyone know if the engines "just
stopped abruptly" or did they exibit the slowing down, and rough running
charactoristics of carb icing before they shut down? Seems like this would
be a big clue here. From the little bit that I have read, it seems to have
been more of an abrubt stoppage, which sounds more like the coil or other
ignition components situation. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
Carb icing isn't a cold weather thing, exactly. If the the temperature is
around 50 degrees F, and the dew point is just below it, you are in the
'serious' zone at *any* power setting, not just the normally accepted
"descent" power.
George Sears
>
>>
>>The NSI Subaru conversion uses an Ellison throttle body fuel injection unit
>>which requires carb heat. NSI supplies carb heat via a conventional heat
>>muff around the muffler. I haven't had any cold weather flying experience
>>yet to be able to comment from personal experience on its necessity. It
>>seems to me that the controlling factor is the induction system and not the
>>engine type but I'm no expert.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>>
>>
>Alan:
>
>Your set up seems quite conventional. I spoke with Jamie (Hugh's
>inspector) about this his particular installation. It seems that the
>design with the Bing carbs has the engine dumping the moist crankcase fumes
>into a port at the throat of the carb.
>
>So we go back to these Soob powered units that were insured by Avemco,
>crashed, but then ran normally on the ground. Were these classic carb ice
>situations??
>
>Craig
>
>
> _|_ Craig Cousins
>___(o)___
> / \ C-FTAZ
>
>Check out the CH300 builders site at:
>
>http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
> So we go back to these Soob powered units that were insured by Avemco,
> crashed, but then ran normally on the ground. Were these classic carb
ice
> situations??
>
> Craig
Interesting question Craig.
Looking at it simplistically, for a mechanically sound engine to run you
only need fuel and spark. So.... for an engine to stop one of these needs
to be missing. Its possible for an intermittent ignition problem to occur
but less likely than carb ice blocking the fuel flow. Any intermittent
problem can be really tough to trouble shoot. I have opted for redundency
on ignition and fuel pumps but still had a failure because of a mechanical
problem.
An example of a difficult problem to find after the fact is what I noticed
yesterday with one of my ignition systems. Because I have two seperate
electronic ignition boxes I have hooked them up to my tach so that I can
switch the tach signal from one to the other. I noticed that with one of
the units every once in a while the tach reading would flicker. It looked
like a complete momentary loss of signal. The other unit continued to
behave normally. I didn't feel like trouble shooting in the air but
everything checks out and behaves normally on run up on the ground and I
can't find anything obvious that would cause the problem. I guess I'll
play with things a bit in the circuit to see if I can duplicate the problem
and if I can see if it seems to be just in the tach signal or if the
ignition itself is affected. I can do this by switching off the "good"
ignition any seeing if the engine stumbles (hence wanting to do this in the
circuit!). Anyway, with a single ignition a problem like this could down a
plane and would be hard to discover on the ground afterwards.
I don't think most of us realize how much more vibration there is in an
aircraft than in a car. As an example, I used some automotive flexible
aluminum duct to hook up my carb heat. This duct is used for a similar
purpose in cars to hook up induction heat. The duct broke from vibration
in a few hours in my aircraft whereas it lives for ever under a car hood.
I don't notice any more vibration in my aircraft than in any others that I
have flown. This would make me cautious about using automotive or general
hardware parts for any critical systems.
Regards,
Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
Alan, George and Fred:
It would seem that someone here on the list with a vested interest in the
EA81, should be a focal point for collecting data on Soob failures. I'm
sure that there are a few guys on this list who are also part of the two
current Soob e-mail lists (the best ones to collect the data).
It seems to me that there may be some commonality in a few of the Soob
failures. Yet AVEMCO is reluctant to collect any data and only makes vague
suggestions of what the problem could be.
Granted, every installation is unique in a homebuilt. However, if a
component of the stock ignition system (or an aftermarket one) is failing
due to heat and vibration, this should be logged somewhere and the
information passed to all interested parties.
As well, if carb icing is suspected in a particular setup, this information
must be documented.
I personally think that the EA81 is a robust engine that will serve well in
an aircraft. AVEMCO on the other hand, is of a different opinion and I
think that this should be take seriously. I can't imagine having to fly
off 100 hours before the insurance company will give me "in flight"
insurance. Heck, I've been flying all summer in the CH300 and I'm only up
to 40 hours (but it's fully insured).
How about it guys??? Anyone out there willing to take up the banner and
start prying all of the sources for good, hard data on Soob failures. This
effort could save someones life (or airplane).
Cheers
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
Alan Newell wrote:
>
>
> > W.R.T. that 100 hours - is that 100 hours on type? or total time? Where
> is the reg. written?
> > I'd like to look into this because I also would prefer to do my own first
> flights etc..
>
> When you get your Flight Authorization after the final inspection it
> contains a number of restrictions. One is that the first five hours have
> to be flown off by a pilot with "not less than 100 hours as pilot in
> command in an aircraft of the same category.
>
> Regards,
> Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Thanks Alan and Craig,
I can qualify for this no problem. I had just misread that initial message which
seemed to indicate someone was trying to build up to 100 hours on a rented ZODIAC
in
order to be elegible to do his first flight. I thought that he was implying that
the
100 hours had to be on the same type rather than category.
Happy building/flying,
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
George Sears wrote:
>
>
>
> Carb icing isn't a cold weather thing, exactly. If the the temperature is
> around 50 degrees F, and the dew point is just below it, you are in the
> 'serious' zone at *any* power setting, not just the normally accepted
> "descent" power.
>
> George Sears
And just an observation:
I learned to fly in the realtively dry climate in Alberta and though I carefully
observed
all the proper procedures with the use of carb heat, I don't know that I ever had
a time
when I definitely had significant carb icing.
Then I started flying out of Montreal where the typical summer weather is much
more humid.
Around here, I discovered that use of carb ice is more than just 'an exercise'!
I've been
surprised many times to discover a significant reaction from an ice-carrying carb,
when I
performed the carb ice check periodically during cruise!
Thanks for the reminder, George.
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Westridge <jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com> |
| Subject: | Final Inspection |
Don't forget air (O2), the engine needs the correct mixture of air, fuel
and an ignition source. Carb ice affects not only fuel getting to the
cylinders but most importantly, it dynamically and most adversely affects
air induction, mixing, and distribution. Think of what Ice does to the
aerodynamic qualities of an airfoil. What has the most dramatic effect?
Slow flight =s max accumlation. Think venturi effect. Slow air rapidly
speeding up in velocity making a dramatic change of direction. The effect
is to drop the temp. of the ambient air and speed it up. Throw in humidity
and it doesn't take too long to get carb ice. Hope this helps, Dave W
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Newell [SMTP:anewell(at)canuck.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 1998 12:11 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Inspection
> So we go back to these Soob powered units that were insured by Avemco,
> crashed, but then ran normally on the ground. Were these classic carb
ice
> situations??
>
> Craig
Interesting question Craig.
Looking at it simplistically, for a mechanically sound engine to run you
only need fuel and spark. So.... for an engine to stop one of these needs
to be missing. Its possible for an intermittent ignition problem to occur
but less likely than carb ice blocking the fuel flow. Any intermittent
problem can be really tough to trouble shoot. I have opted for redundency
on ignition and fuel pumps but still had a failure because of a mechanical
problem.
An example of a difficult problem to find after the fact is what I noticed
yesterday with one of my ignition systems. Because I have two seperate
electronic ignition boxes I have hooked them up to my tach so that I can
switch the tach signal from one to the other. I noticed that with one of
the units every once in a while the tach reading would flicker. It looked
like a complete momentary loss of signal. The other unit continued to
behave normally. I didn't feel like trouble shooting in the air but
everything checks out and behaves normally on run up on the ground and I
can't find anything obvious that would cause the problem. I guess I'll
play with things a bit in the circuit to see if I can duplicate the problem
and if I can see if it seems to be just in the tach signal or if the
ignition itself is affected. I can do this by switching off the "good"
ignition any seeing if the engine stumbles (hence wanting to do this in the
circuit!). Anyway, with a single ignition a problem like this could down a
plane and would be hard to discover on the ground afterwards.
I don't think most of us realize how much more vibration there is in an
aircraft than in a car. As an example, I used some automotive flexible
aluminum duct to hook up my carb heat. This duct is used for a similar
purpose in cars to hook up induction heat. The duct broke from vibration
in a few hours in my aircraft whereas it lives for ever under a car hood.
I don't notice any more vibration in my aircraft than in any others that I
have flown. This would make me cautious about using automotive or general
hardware parts for any critical systems.
Regards,
Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Group,
I just wanted to write about a recent expereince with Aircraft Spruce I thught
you folks might be interested in. As a result I have decided I will no longer
use them. I will do my best to do my homework and find the products I need
from other sources. It is the only power a person has as a consumer.
In the last week of July I ordered 2 capacitance fuel probes (among other
things)from A/C Spruce to install in my wing tanks. They arrived with
absoultely no instructions what-so-ever. After calls to A/C spruce to get
help I determined they would not be of any assistance at all as they had no
literature they could provide and tech support for this product was non-
exsistant. A friend (Don Honabach) and fellow lister found the web page for
SKYSPORTS which sell capacitance probes and from there I downloaded
instructions on how to install the probes.
Well to make a long story short I misread one direction and installed the
probes wrong and damaged them completely. I thought I had followed the
directions properly because as the probes were supplied it was impossible to
install them correctly. Using the the "If it looks right, it must be right"
method of building in this instance failed me. I did not know until speaking
with SKYSPORTS about their product that there was no way the A/C Spruce
product would never have ever worked for me even if I had done everything
perfectly.
Well all of this is my fault for not being careful enough and not doing the
proper homework. A/C Spruce has refused me credit because they said it is my
fault I damaged the product (which it is) even though they could supply
absolutely zero documentation on how to do it properly. I can live with that,
it is not their job to be my technical consultant.
However, here is the kicker, I wanted to order from them their TASKEM
altimeter so I called to get addional information on the product to see if it
was suitable for my project. (Burned once, I was not going to make the same
mistake) When I called them I was told that the only infomation they had was
what was printed in the catalouge. I said "no problem" and asked if I could
have TASKEM's phone number so I could call them and get addiotional
information on the product. A/C Spruce said, and I quote "It is against our
company policy to give out the phone numbers of our vendors."
I then asked the order rep if I was going to be charged a restock fee if I
ordered the altimeter and it ultimately did not work in my project. He said,
"yes, 15% restocking fee" I then asked him again for TASKEM's phone number so
I could get additional product information and he restated A/C Spruces
position regarding that.
I then asked him to clarify what he was saying by stating to him that "You
mean to tell me, that you can not provide any additional information on this
product, are unwilling to give me the information I need to get additional
information and therefore I have to order from you blind, and if the product
doesn't work for me, you are going to charge me 15% to return it to you?" He
said "That is correct" I then said to him that I felt the policy was unfair,
he then said to me and I quote verbatim "THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM, SIR"
At this point I hung up realizing that I could get no further with A/C spruce.
I Understand it is not the place for a vendor to be a customers sole source of
information on a product such as this but to withhold information is
inexcusable if they are not going to allow you to return the product without a
penalty. I personally feel the arrogance of A/C Spruce is terrible and I as
stated above I will exorcise the only power I have as a consumer and refuse to
use them in the future. And I will make others aware of the poor customer
service I received.
I hope this note will forwarn others and hopefully save you guys some hard
earned cash. CAVEAT EMPTOR. <<<<| Date: | Aug 17, 1998 |
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
>
>Hi Group,
>
>I just wanted to write about a recent expereince with Aircraft Spruce I
thught
>you folks might be interested in. As a result I have decided I will no
longer
>use them. I will do my best to do my homework and find the products I need
>from other sources. It is the only power a person has as a consumer.
>
>Steve Fremman
>601HDS, Currently stuck on outboard wings.
Steve:
It's interesting how the internet is changing our lives. Case in point -
Marketing professionals will tell you that if you get an unhappy customer,
he (or she) will tell at least 10 people.
I'm not sure how many are on this list, but you just changed long standing
statitic.
I too have had my share of problems with Aircraft Spruce. I have had to
yell pretty loud to get situations corrected. Here is a classic example of
a company that has grown large and lost both the personal touch and
expertise in products that it started with.
The people on the phone are not AME's or A & P's (at least, not most of
them) and I doubt that many of them even fly. They are trained to take
orders, put them in the computer and follow company instructions.
I had an experience with Leavens Aviation in Toronto a few weeks ago. I
ordered some bolts and a few other pieces of hardware. The guy on the
phone says, "We have a minimum $25.00 order". He was serious. Didn't want
to process my order. So I got a little PeeOwwed and told the guy, "Listen,
I spent $1100.00 at your establishment last week. I have accces to just
about every important e-mail list related to aviation on the internet.
Your failure to process my order will be duly noted on as many web sites
and e-mail lists as I can access. All of Canada will know of your failure
to provide customer service"
Don't you just love the internet - cause, guess what???? I had the power
to change the statistics. They processed my order.
So Steve, don't think that the only power you have as a consumer is the
power to boycot. You have this immense communications system to tell
hundreds of people about your displeasure with this company.
And you know what, if someone is smart, they will forward a copy of your
letter to the big cheese at AS. They should know that you just told
hundreds of people your story - and be very concerned.
Cheers
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LD_PAHNKE(at)prodigy.com (DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD) |
I've used Wicks, no problem next day service every time and they give
you an account number that is an open ended account. Give them a try.
No minimum orders, but so far no trouble. Also Gulf coast Avionics
has been very helpful for technical info re instruments. I will have
them do my panel. Also there are CD roms available with almost all
business Phone numbers and addresses available to talk directly to
Vendors. Good luck. Doug P.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
Steve,
For what it's worth, you are definitely not the only one that has had
problems with Aircraft Spruce. I have been debating as to whether or not to
continue doing business with them. After your letter and comments, I have
decided that I'd rather spend my money with a company that will appreciate
it.
FYI - Problem history with A/C Spruce:
1. Place an order for miscellaneous parts and 24 cans of Zinc Oxide. Gave
the order entry person my CC # and was thanked for the order. During no time
did the order entry person give any indication that there would be any sort
of delay. After approximately two weeks, my order hadn't arrived.
So I called and was told by the order entry people that the order was in
process and they had no ETA. Slightly upset, I finally got to someone over
in the "customer service" department. Only then was I told that for large
orders (the 24 cans of Zinc Oxide) they have to do an analysis to determine
if it is going to neglectively impact their stock for smaller orders. Give
me a break. Final result is that the order was pushed through and showed up
a couple days later.
It still makes no sense that with all the ordered product sitting in a
warehouse why an order isn't processed same or next day. Not to mention
their socialist attitude towards preserving stock for small orders. Wrote a
letter to the "big wig" and was called back by a rep. manager in customer
service. Basically told to ask when I place a large order to contact
customer service to push the order through. Like I've got time! But no
apology was given.
2. Called on the same fuel probes that Steve F. had ordered and tried to
get technical literature or a company reference. A/C Spruce actually puts
their label on these products as the manufacturer. When talking with
customer service was told that they had no technical material available.
Asked to speak with someone in technical support and all I got was
"technical support, huh?".
In my business (computer networking), I would love to see a clients reaction
if they called and asked for HP, IBM, Seagate, etc. phone number and I told
them it wasn't our policy to give manufacturers numbers out. Give me a
break- we'd have no clients if that was our attitude.
I'm just glad that my trip to Oshkosh presented me with plenty of company's
to choose from and that I'm no longer dependant on A/C Spruce. If time
permits, I'll send a note to A/C Spruce everytime I place an order with
another company to show them how they lost $5,000 to $10,000 of sales for my
home-built project.
Well, I feel well vented. Please take them time and vote with your money. No
company in today's market deserves to have your money while they provide
slow, arrogant, and poor service.
Regards,
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS - Working on outboard wings.
602.966.0772
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
-----Original Message-----
From: SLF998(at)aol.com <SLF998(at)aol.com>
info@aircraft-spruce.com
Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 1:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: A /C SPRUCE
>
>Hi Group,
>
>I just wanted to write about a recent expereince with Aircraft Spruce I
thught
>you folks might be interested in. As a result I have decided I will no
longer
>use them. I will do my best to do my homework and find the products I need
>from other sources. It is the only power a person has as a consumer.
>
>In the last week of July I ordered 2 capacitance fuel probes (among other
>things)from A/C Spruce to install in my wing tanks. They arrived with
>absoultely no instructions what-so-ever. After calls to A/C spruce to get
>help I determined they would not be of any assistance at all as they had no
>literature they could provide and tech support for this product was non-
>exsistant. A friend (Don Honabach) and fellow lister found the web page
for
>SKYSPORTS which sell capacitance probes and from there I downloaded
>instructions on how to install the probes.
>
>Well to make a long story short I misread one direction and installed the
>probes wrong and damaged them completely. I thought I had followed the
>directions properly because as the probes were supplied it was impossible
to
>install them correctly. Using the the "If it looks right, it must be
right"
>method of building in this instance failed me. I did not know until
speaking
>with SKYSPORTS about their product that there was no way the A/C Spruce
>product would never have ever worked for me even if I had done everything
>perfectly.
>
>Well all of this is my fault for not being careful enough and not doing the
>proper homework. A/C Spruce has refused me credit because they said it is
my
>fault I damaged the product (which it is) even though they could supply
>absolutely zero documentation on how to do it properly. I can live with
that,
>it is not their job to be my technical consultant.
>
>However, here is the kicker, I wanted to order from them their TASKEM
>altimeter so I called to get addional information on the product to see if
it
>was suitable for my project. (Burned once, I was not going to make the
same
>mistake) When I called them I was told that the only infomation they had
was
>what was printed in the catalouge. I said "no problem" and asked if I
could
>have TASKEM's phone number so I could call them and get addiotional
>information on the product. A/C Spruce said, and I quote "It is against
our
>company policy to give out the phone numbers of our vendors."
>
>I then asked the order rep if I was going to be charged a restock fee if I
>ordered the altimeter and it ultimately did not work in my project. He
said,
>"yes, 15% restocking fee" I then asked him again for TASKEM's phone number
so
>I could get additional product information and he restated A/C Spruces
>position regarding that.
>
>I then asked him to clarify what he was saying by stating to him that "You
>mean to tell me, that you can not provide any additional information on
this
>product, are unwilling to give me the information I need to get additional
>information and therefore I have to order from you blind, and if the
product
>doesn't work for me, you are going to charge me 15% to return it to you?"
He
>said "That is correct" I then said to him that I felt the policy was
unfair,
>he then said to me and I quote verbatim "THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM, SIR"
>
>At this point I hung up realizing that I could get no further with A/C
spruce.
>
>I Understand it is not the place for a vendor to be a customers sole source
of
>information on a product such as this but to withhold information is
>inexcusable if they are not going to allow you to return the product
without a
>penalty. I personally feel the arrogance of A/C Spruce is terrible and I
as
>stated above I will exorcise the only power I have as a consumer and refuse
to
>use them in the future. And I will make others aware of the poor customer
>service I received.
>
>I hope this note will forwarn others and hopefully save you guys some hard
>earned cash. CAVEAT EMPTOR. <<<<
>
>Steve Fremman
>601HDS, Currently stuck on outboard wings.
________________________________________________________________________________
If you don't mind I would like to forward your response to AC spruce. I once
read an article published in a restaurant trade journal ( I used to be in that
business) called the "The Failure of Success" The artice detailed how
companies lose sight of what made them successful and tend to grow large,
impersonal and arrogant with time.
Being a small business owner I try to never forget how bad it feels to be
treated so shabbily by companies. There are times when I have done the same
to my customers and I alwys try to remind myself that there is no excuse for
truly bad customer service.
Thanks for your reply,
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 8/17/98 9:52:06 PM, LD_PAHNKE(at)prodigy.com writes:
<>
Thanks for the suggestion, I have one of those CD's sitting right in my desk
and didn't think to use it. I'll give it (and Wicks) a try.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe G. Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
Craig Cousins wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Hi Group,
> >
> >I just wanted to write about a recent expereince with Aircraft Spruce I
> thught
> >you folks might be interested in. As a result I have decided I will no
> longer
> >use them. I will do my best to do my homework and find the products I need
> >from other sources. It is the only power a person has as a consumer.
> >
> >Steve Fremman
> >601HDS, Currently stuck on outboard wings.
>
> >
> >Hi Group,
> >
> >I just wanted to write about a recent expereince with Aircraft Spruce I
> thught
> >you folks might be interested in. As a result I have decided I will no
> longer
> >use them. I will do my best to do my homework and find the products I need
> >from other sources. It is the only power a person has as a consumer.
> >
> >Steve Fremman
> >601HDS, Currently stuck on outboard wings.
>
Hi Steve,
In these cases, I go to the top (which sometimes can be hard) and I talk
directly to the owners or the people in charge. I really think you
should bring up your concerns to the President of A/C Spruce, Jim Irwin,
as I am sure he probably wants to know about your experience--good or
bad.
Try sending an email to info@aircraft-spruce.com and explain the
situation.
If their mission statement on the inside cover page of their catalog is
true, you shouldn't have any problems. I'll quote the first line; "At
Aircraft Spruce & Specialty, we recognize that the CUSTOMER is #1. We
will do everything in our power to make sure the customer is satisfied
with his experience with A/C Spruce."
I'll quote another line from the mission statement; "At A/C Spruce, we
will solve our customers' problems quickly, fairly, and efficiently."
If they don't solve your problem after this, try dealing with Wicks
Aircraft. They are a much smaller company and they can help their
customers on a more personal basis.
I have been very pleased with their service over the years as they've
always shipped in a timely manner, which is incredibly important when
you're running a flight school. When I need parts, I need them
yesterday. Their prices are hard to beat too.
Philippe Leroy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Philip Polstra <ppolstra(at)inetnow.net> |
| Subject: | Wiring for transponder/encoder |
I picked up a used yellow-tagged Collins TDR-950 transponder and an ACK
encoder. I tried to get the pinout on the transponder from STEC and
they nicely gave me something that couldn't possibly be correct.
Does anyone know the pinout of these two devices or where I could find
such?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James K Brigman <brigjk(at)aur.alcatel.com> |
Anybody know where I can get a body file? I mean the big giant solid flat
file that you can create a nice, straight edge on a cut. About 18-22" long
and 2" or so wide. Big semicircular ridges. Leaves a very nice, smooth edge.
JKB
***********************************************************************
James K. Brigman Alcatel Telecom Raleigh, NC 27609-7860
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Buckwalter <Sales(at)Avionikits.com> |
Philip,
TDR-950 pinout: 1 - Ground ACK:
2 - Suppression 2 - A1
3 - D4 3 - A2
4 - B4 4 - A4
5 - B2 5 - B1
6 - B1 6 - Ground
7 - A4 8 - 14 / 28 VDC in
8 - C1 9 - B2
9 - C4 10 - B4
10 - A2 11 - C1
11 - C2 12 - C4
12 - A1 13 - C2
13 - Lighting 15 - Ground
14 - 14 VDC in
15 - Remote Ident (momentary ground to ident)
Good luck!
David Buckwalter
Avionics Systems
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
>
>>I had an experience with Leavens Aviation in Toronto a few weeks ago. I
>ordered some bolts and a few other pieces of hardware. The guy on the
>phone says, "We have a minimum $25.00 order". >
>Craig
>
>Hi Craig,
I know there are more than a few Toronto area builders on this group,
so I'll post this, even thought the info's local.
There is an aviation supply house called "Aerospares", which is less
than a klick away from Leavens. They're at 7270 Torbram, Unit 3. Phone is
905-671-2781.
These folks are just great in dealing with homebuilders, and no order
is too small. I was in there the other day and noticed a headset on the
counter, and asked if they sold the sponge mic guard. The guy took the one
off the headset and gave it to me-no charge. This place gets all of my
meagre business.
Cheers, Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TWhiteh465(at)aol.com |
Try JC Whitney or Carolina Auto Parts out of Charlotte..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Payson" <payce(at)niagara.com> |
Hi guys:
I thought I was the only one who had problems with Aircraft Spruce. Get
this, In April 1998 I ordered a number of articles from A/C. They sent the
bulk of the order but back ordered a static port and a space miser slip
indicator.
After many calls enquiring into the back order I finally received the static
port but am still waiting for the space miser. But this is what happened
regarding the static port. I called and they informed me that it had been
sent out on June 30. Two weeks later I called to ask where the static port
and customer service informed me that the package had been damaged in
transit but she assured me that a replacement would be sent out that day, no
charge since my credit card had already been charged for the one I didn't
receive.
Two weeks later I called and asked where the static port was and explained
that I was told one would be sent to me, no charge as per above. She
informed me that they could not send anything out , no charge and that the
only they would ship one to me was to charge my card a second time and then
credit my account once they receive payment from UPS for the damaged
package.
In a nutshell they wanted to charge me twice for a part that was damaged in
transit and never did reach me. Seems to me that the problem should be
between A/C and UPS. I shouldn't have been caught in the middle.
Still waiting for the Space Miser (ordered in April)
Dave Payson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
>I'm just glad that my trip to Oshkosh presented me with plenty of company's
>to choose from and that I'm no longer dependant on A/C Spruce.
Don,
Maybe you could give us all a list of companys that you are now aware of? I
have been dealing with Wicks and have had no problem as yet.
Bill Morelli
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
Hey Guys,
I've been forwarding all of these notes about Aircraft Spruce problems to
Aircraft Spruce at info@aircraft-spruce.com
I suggest you all do the same and maybe they will get the hint if they are
inundated with e-mails that describe what poor service they provide??
Just use Wicks Aircraft instead. Much better service.
Regards,
Bill Morelli
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
I have a couple of questions for the group:
1 - I noticed in the construction manual that they call out adding drain
holes in the bottom of the fuselage to let water exit. Should this also be
done anywhere else (like the OB wings) I imagine there will be a good
amount of water getting in due to the wing locker hinges?
2 - How and where has everyone been adding inspection panels? When you add
an inspection panel, do you reinforce around the cutout with "L" material?
What is used to attach the panels, nut plates and screws?
Regards,
Bill Morelli
HDS - 6-3798
working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norris <rnorris4(at)earthlink.net> |
Bill Morelli wrote:
> 2 - How and where has everyone been adding inspection panels? When you add
> an inspection panel, do you reinforce around the cutout with "L" material?
> What is used to attach the panels, nut plates and screws?
Bill,
Here's what I proposed to Nick at Zenith, and the response.
>
> Also, I am thinking of adding a small round
> (120mm dia)access/inspection port on the
> underside of the wing just aft of the main spar
> between ribs 8 & 9. Can I use a doubler ring 40mm
> wide out of .025 with A4 spaced 40mm apart and
> use 4 or 5 #6 screws threaded into speed nuts on
> the doubler to hold the access cover on?
This should work fine.
Nick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Norris <rnorris4(at)earthlink.net> |
James K Brigman wrote:
> Anybody know where I can get a body file? I mean the big giant solid flat
> file that you can create a nice, straight edge on a cut. About 18-22" long
> and 2" or so wide. Big semicircular ridges. Leaves a very nice, smooth edge.
I got mine at Orchard Supply Hardware. $22 I think. Don't know if you
have OSH in NC. They are also called Vixen files. Get a medium cut. I
have a coarse cut and it's sometimes too coarse.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
After re-reading the articles concerning poor / arrogant service at A/C
Spruce it became apparent that the underlying problem is most likely putting
in place policies that aren't flexible and literally forcing the employees
to follow the policies by the letter.
As an interesting side note, Steve Freeman got a call from A/C Spruce
yesterday. Apparently, Jim Irwin is even going to call him today. Hopefully
all this effort will result in a more customer oriented company that values
it's clients and not poorly implemented policies.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jean-Pierre Deschenes <Jean-Pierre.Deschenes(at)pwc.ca> |
| Subject: | Zenair Opene house |
Hi Everyone !
If someone from Montreal is planning to go to the Zenair Open House, I
would be interrested to go too, but by plane, because it's too long to
drive.
Jean-Pierre
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Rees <Randyr(at)icat.com> |
But regardless of their "new" attitude it would still make it hard for me to
even give them a chance now. I've yet to order any parts except from Cessna
directly, and I don't believe I'll cut my teeth on A/C Spruce that's for
sure.
Randy
>
... Hopefully
> all this effort will result in a more customer oriented company that
> values
> it's clients and not poorly implemented policies.
>
> Don Honabach
> Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fothergill <mfothergill(at)interhop.net> |
>
>I have a couple of questions for the group:
>
>1 - I noticed in the construction manual that they call out adding drain
>holes in the bottom of the fuselage to let water exit. Should this also be
>done anywhere else (like the OB wings) I imagine there will be a good
>amount of water getting in due to the wing locker hinges?
>
>2 - How and where has everyone been adding inspection panels? When you add
>an inspection panel, do you reinforce around the cutout with "L" material?
>What is used to attach the panels, nut plates and screws?
>
>Regards,
>Bill Morelli
>HDS - 6-3798
>working OB wings
>
>Hi Bill;
The drain holes should be 3/16 in dia in front at the ends each of the "L"
on the bottom of the fuz. These are to prevent water collecting and
freezing, thus giving a dangerous aft CG. This is at least the Canadian
requirement.
Keep flying
Mike
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca |
I did check the regs as well. It is in the AIP, LRA section 1.7. As Craig says
below, all it says is this 100 hours must be in powered aircraft.
Hugh MacKenzie
C-FXPL
Grimsby, Ontario
-----Original Message-----
From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail
Sent: Friday, August 14, 1998 5:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: First flights
Hugh (and company);
100 hours of pilot in command is a definate requirement to fly the first 5
hours off on your new homebuilt. As far as the regulation is concerned,
the 100 hours could be in a 747 (but not in an ultralight).
This i
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca |
| Subject: | Final Inspection |
John:
The move wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. The big thing that made it
easier was that I installed an access panel during fuselage construction in the
bottom of the fuselage at about the mid point. If I didn't have this......
Hugh MacKenzie
C-FXPL
Grimsby, Ontario
-----Original Message-----
From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail
Sent: Friday, August 14, 1998 9:04 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Final Inspection
I will try to take all grounds to the battery ground as you are obviously
doing. I fear, however, that my plane (601 HDS with wing tanks and the 8
gal. D tank) will need the same location for my battery and I will be faced
with the same solution you have had to live with...
John Karnes
karnes(at)zoomnet.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | AC/Spruce response to my (and your) postings. |
Hi Group,
I am forwarding a copy of the response from Aircraft Spruce regarding the
difficulties I had with them over the past 2 weeks. I spoke at length with
Mr. Aguilar from A/C Spruce yesterday and he was both sympathetic to my
concerns as well as helpfull.
In all fairness to A/C Spruce they have handled my complaint quickly and
completely. I will not have reservations in continuing to use them for future
purchases.
If any of you out there have had similiar experiences with A/C Spruce Mr.
Aguilar has told me that you are free to call him to discuss these issues.
Steve Freeman
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: spruce(at)deltanet.com (Aircraft Spruce & Specialty)
Subject: Aircraft Spruce
Dear Steve,
Thank you for giving me a few minutes of your time yesterday. I received
your subsequent email this morning. After our conversation I retraced the
actions that were taken in regards to the probes. Mr Glaze did show me the
information that was faxed to you and it was erroneous. As you stated it
really had nothing to do with the probes. I did come up with the correct
information and have updated our support files so that this will not happen
again. I have also talked with the General Manager about the procedures we
are using to obtain much needed information for the customer. A couple of
ideas have come out of that discussion and we are persuing their
implementation. As both you and I know, you can have the greatest
procedures, but unless they are carried out properly, they mean nothing. I
assure you that copies of your letter will be discussed at future sales
meetings as an example of what not to do in similar situations and my
regret is that we had to frustrate a customer in good standing with our
lack of service. After getting off the phone with you yesterday I went and
pulled all the supporting paperwork and talked with the Customer Service
Supervisor concerning your account. The result being a credit, for the
probes returned, placed on your in-house account under your customer
number. We apologize for the inconvenience and hope that in the future we
are able to show you the kind of service every customer deserves. If there
is anything I can help you with, or a problem that you need addressed
please feel free to contact me directly.
Sincerely
Jerry Aguilar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AIRCRAFT SPRUCE & SPECIALTY CO.
225 Airport Circle
Corona, CA. 91720 U.S.A.
Tele: 909-372-9555
Fax: 909-372-0555
Order Desk: 800-824-1930
Customer Service: 800-861-3192
Email: info@aircraft-spruce.com
WWW: http://www.aircraft-spruce.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Bending .095 L material |
Here's one for you. Tomorrow, I'd like to drill and cleco the thick .095
"L" pieces (6V11-5) that go from front to aft along side of the landing gear
housing under the wing. The instructions say to bend the "L" material so it
follows the curved contour under the wing. I've heard two different way
suggested to bend these pieces of the kit that are precut to 600 mm long.
Based on good sucess, can you please suggest a way to bend these thick "L"'s
smoothly. Thanks! Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tomkat(at)t.imap.itd.umich.edu (Dennis Kayner) |
>In France they charge $120 for a single seat and $360 for a 2-seat (third
>party mandatory insurance with unlimited coverage).
>Optional insurance for damage to the aircraft is annually 10% of the
>machine price.
Claude,
Those are very attractive insurance rates. What would be typical fuel and
hangar costs? Also, do you have to pay any landing fees?
Just curious. Thanks.
Dennis Kayner
Tecumseh, Michigan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | Final Inspection |
> >So we go back to these Soob powered units that were insured by Avemco,
> >crashed, but then ran normally on the ground. Were these classic carb
> ice
> >situations??
> >
> >Craig
>
> ++++ Craig, Has anyone posted, or does anyone know if the engines "just
> stopped abruptly" or did they exibit the slowing down, and rough running
> charactoristics of carb icing before they shut down? Seems like this
> would
> be a big clue here. From the little bit that I have read, it seems to have
> been more of an abrubt stoppage, which sounds more like the coil or other
> ignition components situation. Fred
>
[Tony Gunn] Craig/Fred:
I am the guy that talked to the Avemco rep & then passed the info to this
group:
He didn't say anything about how the engines stopped (abruptly or
otherwise). So that we as a group don't try to read too much into what he
did say I will try to e-mail Avemco and see what other details regarding the
5 failures they can pass on to us.
Tony Gunn, Houston
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bending .095 L material |
Fred Hulen wrote:
>
>
> Here's one for you. Tomorrow, I'd like to drill and cleco the thick .095
> "L" pieces (6V11-5) that go from front to aft along side of the landing gear
> housing under the wing. The instructions say to bend the "L" material so it
> follows the curved contour under the wing. I've heard two different way
> suggested to bend these pieces of the kit that are precut to 600 mm long.
> Based on good sucess, can you please suggest a way to bend these thick "L"'s
> smoothly. Thanks! Fred
Fred,
The degree of bend is very small. I can't even remember how I bent mine - probably
similar
to the methods described for bending the longer fuselage longerons - either with
a vise and
some very gentle pressure at several spots along the length; or over a wooden template/curve.
Hope this helps,
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
Hello list members,
I've been looking to rent/buy? a swagging tool for the 1/8" nicopress sleeves.
I thought this
would be available at the local tool rental store - but NOT...
I really don't want to pay $200 for an industrial strength unit that I'll use only
once...
Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Grant Corriveau
601(50%) hds
Montreal
, Ontario next month that I and my wife MIGHT be able to go to -
not sure yet - let's keep in touch, if you'd be interested in that one.
Grant Corriveau
gfcorriv(at)total.net
601 hds (50%...:)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Buckwalter <Sales(at)Avionikits.com> |
| Subject: | Free avionics brochure |
To all Zenithlisters,
Our new color brochure, featuring products designed to allow anyone to
install their own avionics and instruments, is ready. For a free copy,
e-mail or call toll-free (888) 833-KITS. Also, visit our web site at
www.AvioniKits.com. Thank you.
David Buckwalter
Avionics Systems
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Bockius <elrond(at)europa.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
Grant Corriveau wrote:
>
> Hello list members,
>
> I've been looking to rent/buy? a swagging tool for the 1/8" nicopress sleeves.
I thought this
> would be available at the local tool rental store - but NOT...
>
> I really don't want to pay $200 for an industrial strength unit that I'll use
only once...
>
> Any other ideas?
I bought my nicopress tool from AS&S for $15. It is also available here from the
local Ace
hardware store for $30. This is for the type of tool that is clamped together
on the sleeve &
cable by manually tightening two nuts. While not as quick as the more expensive
($75 AS&S, $125
hardware store) bolt-cutter style tool, it worked fine for the 18 fittings on the
Zodiac.
-Bruce
601HD 90% done.
Bruce Bockius
elrond(at)europa.com
Hillsboro, OR, USA
http://www.europa.com/~elrond
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
>I've been looking to rent/buy? a swagging tool for the 1/8" nicopress
sleeves. I thought this
>would be available at the local tool rental store - but NOT...
>I really don't want to pay $200 for an industrial strength unit that I'll
use only once...
>Any other ideas?
+++ It's likely that someone within your nearest chapter of EAA will have
one that you can either borrow or low cost rent. Typically the "Technical
Advisor" is the guy most likely to have it. My local EAA advisor has all
kinds of these "use typically once" type tools that he makes available to
EAA chapter members. Another source might be one of the larger Aviation
Shops, which in this case you probably won't be able to borrow it for free,
but rent it. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Sears <gsears(at)netutah.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Final Inspection |
m>
>I am the guy that talked to the Avemco rep & then passed the info to this
>group:
>He didn't say anything about how the engines stopped (abruptly or
>otherwise). So that we as a group don't try to read too much into what he
>did say I will try to e-mail Avemco and see what other details regarding the
>5 failures they can pass on to us.
>
>Tony Gunn, Houston
>
>
>
>>
>
Here's one. Ron is an EAA tech advisor, and he posted this to fly UL. We
were discussing the fact that engine outs caused fatalities. Arguably, you
shouldn't augur it in because of an engine failure.
>>>
"I run a subaru on my Avid, and am very happy with it. I know of two of
the deaths (2 of the 5). It was not the engine that made them crash.
It was installation. They had a short stub hose and plug sealing off
a breather line, hose clamp came off and got under the drive belts.
Snapped the reduction unit belts due to high tension. There was gouges
in the pulleys. It was a pusher (Genesis). They stalled it, and spun it
in. Death on impact. FLY THE PLANE!! I knew both of them very well,
EAA chapter members. FAA, A+P and engine builder inspected engine after
wreck and found motor fine. In fact it was running at full throttle all
the way down.
I like my SOOB."
Ron Henke
Clearwater, Mn.
George Sears
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Thomas" <dolbydigital(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi guys,
I was interested if anyone had any experience with JPX engines? Looks
like a nice simple engine and installation(air cooled).
Tim
601HDS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jean-Pierre Deschenes <Jean-Pierre.Deschenes(at)pwc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
<35DA8A80.BD7(at)total.net>
Hey Grant
Let me look, I think my RAA chapter has one.
Jean-Pierre
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Ferris <ferret(at)mail.forbin.com> |
| Subject: | Re: JPX engines? |
I really like the design of the JPX engine. I spoke with them at length at
Oshkosh. The real issue for me is that although it has extensive
experience overseas, it has none here in the U.S. Therefore, there is
noone readily available to talk to about experiences with the engine or the
company. I've tried posting an email to the GZUB web page asking about its
reputation, but didn't get a reply. I've also sent a message to a fellow
lister here from France, but haven't heard back yet.
The other thing is getting replacement parts. Could be a nightmare if the
U.S. market doesn't take-off for JPX, and they have only a few engines over
here.
The big disappointment for me was the Jabiru. I learned some things that
didn't set to well with me on the design end. First, everything is
machined; from the cylinders to the crank. Second, no case hardening or
surface protection is given to either the cylinders or crank. They are
just straight-up 4140. They tell me that they machine everything because
they don't have the volume to tool-up casting and forging.
I'm glad I have some time before I select an engine to allow some of these
issues to shake out.
Greg F.
>
>Hi guys,
>
>
>I was interested if anyone had any experience with JPX engines? Looks
>like a nice simple engine and installation(air cooled).
>
>Tim
>601HDS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Free avionics brochure |
Please send one to
Don Honabach
c/o PC Perfect
2740 S. Hardy Drive
Suite #1
Tempe, AZ 85282
or e-mail (assuming PDF or similiar format) to don(at)pcperfect.com
-----Original Message-----
From: David Buckwalter <Sales(at)Avionikits.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 6:24 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Free avionics brochure
>
>To all Zenithlisters,
>
>Our new color brochure, featuring products designed to allow anyone to
>install their own avionics and instruments, is ready. For a free copy,
>e-mail or call toll-free (888) 833-KITS. Also, visit our web site at
>www.AvioniKits.com. Thank you.
>
>David Buckwalter
>Avionics Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Gunn <tgunn(at)mardril.com> |
| Subject: | Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
Grant:
My local hardware store sells to the "boating/sailing" crowd. They sell the
nicopress sleeves and have a good swagging tool for free use (on-site) for
anyone that wants it.
Check out your local marine shops, hardware stores, etc.
Good luck,
Tony Gunn
> Subject: Zenith-List: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves
>
>
> Hello list members,
>
> I've been looking to rent/buy? a swagging tool for the 1/8" nicopress
> sleeves. I thought this
> would be available at the local tool rental store - but NOT...
>
> I really don't want to pay $200 for an industrial strength unit that I'll
> use only once...
>
> Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Grant Corriveau
> 601(50%) hds
> Montreal
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "petersons" <stevep(at)ticon.net> |
Here is my new email address
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
>
>Hello list members,
>
>I've been looking to rent/buy? a swagging tool for the 1/8" nicopress
sleeves. I thought this
>would be available at the local tool rental store - but NOT...
>
>I really don't want to pay $200 for an industrial strength unit that I'll
use only once...
>
>Any other ideas?
>
>Thanks,
>Grant Corriveau
>601(50%) hds
>Montreal
>
Grant:
Get ahold of someone from your local RAA chapter. You will likely find
that someone has the tool available to be borrowed (at no cost).
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com> |
| Subject: | 601XL flap effectiveness |
Earlier in August I think it was Fred Hulen who wrote:
> As mentioned earlier, Chris said that the flaps will
> lower the stall speed by 7 mph.
I don't know what Chris thinks the 7 mph is supposed to be in relation to.
Compare the XL to the HD:
gross wing stall at gross
weight area
XL 1300 132 49 (with flaps)
HD 1200 130 47 mph
One can look at just those figures or go a little further and calculate what
the stall for the HD would be were it to have 130 ft sq wings and a 1300
gross. Using a basic equation for lift, and 'all else being equal', the
stall goes up to about 48.5.
In any case, all the stall values are pretty close. One can only conclude
that either
a) the flaps are effect so the flaps-up stall of the XL must be high and the
wings much less efficient than on the HD (implausible)
or
b) the flaps aren't giving much benefit in stall speed.
Despite my uncertainty about what the numbers for the XL really are, I'm
still intrigued by the flaps and happy to see that the 601 line has not been
left to stagnate.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
Aft wing root extensions not yet in place on 601 HDS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Daurizio <daurizio(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
Howdy,
You might check some local marinas, if you live in an area with some.
I worked my way through college doing rigging for sailboats at a
large marina (Shumway Marine) on Lake Ontario, and they had all of the
gear you could ever need for that type of work. Don't know if they
would loan it out, but I'm sure some would.
Just make sure you get your hands on some good gauges to check the
finished product, whether using Nicropress sleeves or swaging. Just
a go/no go sort of a thing - see if the compressed fitting fits
through a slot in a piece of metal.
There aren't any swaged ends on the Zodiac, are there? Swaging is much
more difficult to do correctly, especially without significant
practice, and proper, well maintained equipment (which is really
expensive). I bet I screwed up at least a couple of thousand dollars
worth of rigging before I finally got good swaged ends. Good thing
they didn't have a policy of docking pay...
Nicropress sleeves are pretty easy to do right, though.
Tom
---Fred Hulen wrote:
>
>
>
> >I've been looking to rent/buy? a swagging tool for the 1/8"
nicopress
> sleeves. I thought this
> >would be available at the local tool rental store - but NOT...
> >I really don't want to pay $200 for an industrial strength unit
that I'll
> use only once...
> >Any other ideas?
>
> +++ It's likely that someone within your nearest chapter of EAA will
have
> one that you can either borrow or low cost rent. Typically the
"Technical
> Advisor" is the guy most likely to have it. My local EAA advisor
has all
> kinds of these "use typically once" type tools that he makes
available to
> EAA chapter members. Another source might be one of the larger
Aviation
> Shops, which in this case you probably won't be able to borrow it
for free,
> but rent it. Fred
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Boultinghouse <rentabro(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | SVS-1400 for Zodiac? |
Hello group,
I've only recently re-subscribed to this list after almost a year
away. I've finally started my flying lessons (about 20 hours in,
starting cross-country work now) and am really getting the itch to
build!
I've purchased the study plans for Bill Spring's WS-202 Sprint, which
shares many similarities with the Zodiac. Overall size, weight and
construction materials are virtually the same, as is the horsepower
requirements. The jury is still out as to what I'll build, especially
with the new 601 XL in the picture. In either case, scratch building
most of the components will be a requirement due to the cost issue.
On to my main question:
Has anyone taken a look at the SVS-1400? I know nothing about the
engine except what I've read at
http://www.teleport.com/~zlinak/engine/engine.htm but it seems like it
would be a good choice for the Zodiac (or the Sprint). It's not
inexpensive, but what is these days? Of particular interest is the
horsepower/torque chart at
http://www.teleport.com/~zlinak/engine/dyno.htm . Note the fuel
consumption at 3600 RPM (peak torque)... Sounds almost too perfect.
Comments? Does anyone have direct experience with the engine or the
company? They also have a great looking ground adjustable prop.
Regards,
Chris Boultinghouse
Austin, TX
PS: Any Zodiacs in the Austin area? I'd love to see if I fit in one
(I'm 6'2" tall).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com> |
| Subject: | Torque Tube 6V13-3 |
Hi,
The plans state that the bushing that goes into the torque tube 6V13-3
(bottom right of 6V13) needs to be welded into position and then sanded
down smooth. The original zenith manual states that all welding is done by
the factory and should only be done by professionals. Questions is, did
this come completed in other peoples kits and if not, how did people get
this step completed? (type of weld required etc..).
Thanks
- Andrew SanClemente (601 HDS)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development)
900 Chelmsford Street
Lowell, MA 01851-8207
Tel: (978) 551-5361
Fax: (978) 551-5351
Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com
Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Atkinson <dmti(at)rogerswave.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: 701 or 601 on floats |
I think the amphib 601 pictured at fly-pass actually has a 914 turbo in it.
This gives 100+hp for five minutes...ie for take off. I have never had the
pleasure of seeing it fly, but I did see it in-the-flesh at the fly-pass
shop one day....it's a VERY slick looking unit. It's instrument suite is
very close to IFR capable too. All this being said, I don't know if the
912 was inadequate or the owner just preferred and could afford a 914. The
100hp 912s was of course not around at the time this plane was built.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Lee [SMTP:rleebobl(at)sprynet.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 1998 9:26 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 or 601 on floats
I have seen the pics of the 601HD on floats at the Flypass site, and was
wondering how this
configuration would compare to a 701 on floats powered by the same Rotax
912?
Is the takeoff run similar? Landing? Cruise speed?
Has anyone had time in both aircraft who could respond with the
characteristics?
Of course the ideal solution is to have several planes...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glen_Worstell(at)notes.seagate.com |
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 08/19/98 |
Comments on two different posts:
> PS: Any Zodiacs in the Austin area? I'd love to see if I fit in one
(I'm 6'2" tall)
The Zodiac is much better in this regard than most of the small designs.
I am 6'6" and I fly a 601HD. It isn't really roomy for me, but it is OK.
You will not have any problems at 6'2". The 601XL is even better. If you
are ever in the Oklahoma City area, you are welcome to try my HD on
for size.
> ... In any case, all the stall values are pretty close. One can only
conclude
that either
a) the flaps are effect so the flaps-up stall of the XL must be high and
the
wings much less efficient than on the HD (implausible)
There is a tradeoff between drag (cruise speed) and stall speed. The
601HD favors low stall speed and low cruise, the XL favors higher
cruise speed and higher (without flaps) stall speed. The flaps on the
XL reduce the stall speed by (according to Zenair) 7 mph. Whether a wing
design is "efficient" or not depends on what you mean by efficient.
Personally, of the several 600/601 designs I like the XL the best.
The only unknown is the cruise speed, and we won't know that until
some are built (the factory is historically "optimistic" in this regard).
Glen.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
I'm very happy to report that A/C Spruce also took my compliant seriously
and credited me for the shipping on the delayed order. It is refreshing to
see a company take responsibility (now, if we could just get Clinton to do
the right thing - sorry, couldn't resist throwing that in).
I think the opinions of builders on this list has been a great help in
letting A/C Spruce know how they were perceived by many experimental
airplane builders.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS - Outboard Wings
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Torque Tube 6V13-3 |
I talked to the factory today and they informed my that this is NOT welded
but the bushing should be sanded smooth. Its supposed to come that way but
if yours didn't (like mine), just sand the bushing down until its flush
with the tube sides.
> The plans state that the bushing that goes into the torque tube 6V13-3
>(bottom right of 6V13) needs to be welded into position and then sanded
>down smooth. The original zenith manual states that all welding is done by
>the factory and should only be done by professionals. Questions is, did
>this come completed in other peoples kits and if not, how did people get
>this step completed? (type of weld required etc..).
>
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development)
900 Chelmsford Street
Lowell, MA 01851-8207
Tel: (978) 551-5361
Fax: (978) 551-5351
Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com
Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Perry_Paul" <paul.perry(at)at.siemens.ca> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Aft wing root extensions |
Peter Chapman wrote:
> still intrigued by the flaps and happy to see that the 601 line has not been
> left to stagnate.
>
> Peter Chapman
> Toronto, ON
> Aft wing root extensions not yet in place on 601 HDS.
Peter,
Ditto -- I'm glad to see the twin and now the XL so we know that Zenair is still
actively
involved in supporting the design. My 'dream' Zodiac: One with an alternate pair
of
extra-long wings that I could use for gliding. With a feathered prop, it might
make a decent
little motorized glider. But I'm sure it's not THAT simple.
Thanks to all who advised re the swagging tool. I looked at that unit that compresses
with a
couple of bolts. It only seems to make one long compression on the sleeve, as
opposed to the
three separate 'crimps' that the 'bolt cutter' style tool makes. Did I properly
interpret the
way this tool works? Is the 3-crimp method a requirement for aircraft cable swagging?
Peter, - With respect to the wing root extensions - I've seen a couple of aircraft
where
these have been bent when someone accidently failed to observe the 'NO STEP' sign.
I've been
trying to think of a way to make this area strong enough to withstand an accidental
step
without damage. Any ideas out there? Or is this NOT really a common problem...
Regards,
Grant Corriveau
601 hds, Montreal
(re-organizing the shop for phase II - center wing and fuselage 'mating')
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
Tom Daurizio wrote:
> There aren't any swaged ends on the Zodiac, are there? Swaging is much
> more difficult to do correctly, especially without significant
> practice, and proper, well maintained equipment (which is really
> expensive). I bet I screwed up at least a couple of thousand dollars
> worth of rigging before I finally got good swaged ends. Good thing
> they didn't have a policy of docking pay...
>
> Nicropress sleeves are pretty easy to do right, though.
>
> Tom
Tom,
I'm obviously mis-using the terminology. I would appreciate some more explanation.
What
exactly is swagging then? And what is the tool called that one uses to compress
the
nicopress sleeves? A 'nicopress tool?'
Thanks for the clarification,
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SVS-1400 for Zodiac? |
Chris Boultinghouse wrote:
> PS: Any Zodiacs in the Austin area? I'd love to see if I fit in one
> (I'm 6'2" tall).
Welcome back, Chris;
I'm also 6'2" (and 1/2" when I stand up straight...:-)
I've tried on the Zodiac at the factory, which was built with just the standard
cockpit and it
fit okay. My head was a bit close to the canopy, so I've chosen to build my seat
pan as close
to the floor as possible, and I'll also install the 2" canopy extension kit. I
also have some
possible adjustments with the seat back angle and will position the rudders as
far forward as
possible. With all this I expect to have a fairly 'roomy' little aircraft. Now,
I just need to
make sure my wife/copilot can reach the rudder pedals!!! :-)
Also, we have some other tall flyers on the list who are happy with the room in
the Zodiac.
All the best in your decision-making!
Grant Corriveau,
601 hds (50.5%)
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Torque Tube 6V13-3 |
Andrew Sanclemente wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> The plans state that the bushing that goes into the torque tube 6V13-3
> (bottom right of 6V13) needs to be welded into position and then sanded
> down smooth. The original zenith manual states that all welding is done by
> the factory and should only be done by professionals. Questions is, did
> this come completed in other peoples kits and if not, how did people get
> this step completed? (type of weld required etc..).
>
> Thanks
>
> - Andrew SanClemente (601 HDS)
Andrew,
I think I scratched my head over this too, then I resolved it like this (rightly
or wrongly):
The bushing is already installed in the tube at the factory (as per the note written
in the
bottom right corner - "Note: Bushing is part of 6-v-13-3)
What I then installed is actually labeled as an 'INSERT' (see the label just beside
the arrow
that shows the insert going into the bushing - just to the left of that previous
'NOTE').
So, I believe the bushing is already installed and we're just installing the insert.
I hope
this is correct.
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
601 hds 50.5%
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aft wing root extensions |
I've seen a couple of aircraft where these have been bent when someone
accidently failed to observe the 'NO STEP' sign. I've been trying to think
of a way to make this area strong enough to withstand an accidental step
without damage. Any ideas out there?
+++ I heard Nicholas say that the demo plane had been damaged several times
in the past because of people accidentally steping on the "no step" area,
and they had replaced this area with a new one made of thicker material.
Also, a friend of mine that is building a 601 HD made several extra ribs
that he installed in that area on his. Still not totally prepared for "Big
Foot", but better. Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
| Subject: | Re: JPX engines? |
Hello,
If I may, I'd like to answer some of your very good concerns about the JPX
engines on behalf of my father, Johnny Leroy, exclusive importer of JPX
aircraft engines for the USA.
> I really like the design of the JPX engine. I spoke with them at length
at
> Oshkosh. The real issue for me is that although it has extensive
> experience overseas, it has none here in the U.S.
All that I can say is that I personally visited the JPX factory in France
for 4 days (all expenses paid by JPX) and I was extremelly impressed with
the quality of the work and the highly skilled technicians (apx. 80). The
engines are made in limited numbers so that the quality can be highly
respected. Recognizing that the media has not been very helpful with the
introduction of this engine in the USA, JPX and Dyn'Aero (manufacturer of
the MCR-01 Banbi), with the opportunity of the French 100 year of aviation
celebration coming up, have invited the American aviation media to take a
first look at the operations that go on in the factories. From what I saw
when I visited JPX, I can guarantee that the media will be blown away by
what they see, which will hopefully relax people's attitudes about this
unknown engine (in the U.S.). It will only be a matter of time before you
can talk to other JPX users about their experiences.
> The other thing is getting replacement parts. Could be a nightmare if
the
> U.S. market doesn't take-off for JPX, and they have only a few engines
over
> here.
As the exclusive importer of JPX for the USA/Canada, it would be
impossible for us to sell engines and not have replacement parts available.
First, because JPX requires us to have a minimum quantity of parts, and
second, because as consumers, we know first hand , the importance of having
parts ready to ship on the same day. We can't have people waiting for
weeks for a simple thing like a gasket.
Whether the market takes off or not, Leroy Enterprises, Inc. will still
be
here selling JPX engines and parts/service. JPX is not our only source of
income. We do not have to solely rely on the business of selling JPX
engines to survive, we operate other businesses that will assure Leroy
Enterprises to be around for a long time. Now, for you skeptics, if we do
go out of business because of the end of the world, JPX will automatically
appoint a new importer. People would pay an arm and a leg to be in the
position we're in--at the top that is.
> The big disappointment for me was the Jabiru. I learned some things that
> didn't set to well with me on the design end. First, everything is
> machined; from the cylinders to the crank. Second, no case hardening or
> surface protection is given to either the cylinders or crank. They are
> just straight-up 4140. They tell me that they machine everything because
> they don't have the volume to tool-up casting and forging.
Here are a few of my personal UNBIASED feelings about the Jabiru and the
performance it will yield on our Zodiacs. The "claimed 80 HP" engine will
not get you the performance numbers that the Rotax 912 or JPX 4TX
will--just ask Chris Heintz what he thinks about the Jabirus on the Gemini
project.
If you guys want to get the advertised performance numbers on the Zodiac
with a Jabiru, you will need to get the six cylinder version. But don't be
expecting 120 hp!!! A more realistic rating for the six cyl. is 100 hp.
Now, I don't have anything to say about how the Jabiru is made, because
I
don't know how it's made. What I can tell you however is how the JPX is
made. Most internal and external parts of the JPX are protected against
the ill effects of corrosion. They use different processes depending on
the parts in question. For example, the forged chromoly crankshaft is
nitrided on the surface (it provides a very hard surface and it's
extremelly corrosion proof), the prop hub is also made the same way as the
crank, the case is protected with a high temp corrosion proof process, and
most other critical components have some kind of corrosion protection.
Unfortunately, only a hand full of knowledgeable people understand the
value of such attention to detail.
Also, JPX operates their own state of the art foundry, next door to the
main machining department. Following are the typical steps involved in
making a part at JPX: Raw materials comes in and samples of the shipment
go to one of the quality control labs where they check the material's
molecular make up against industry standards. If the material meets or
exceeds the minimum standards (remember that the engine is JAR certified),
the material gets used to make parts. If the parts are to be cast, the
metal ingots go to the foundry and they are melted to specific temperatures
and parts are made using various methods such as lost wax, sand, and foam,
etc.
From there, EACH new parts goes through a quality inspection before it
gets machined. Once the machining is done, guess what, back to the lab for
more quality control on EACH part. Tolerances are checked and each part,
if passed, is beautifully CNC engraved with a serial number that JPX keeps
on file (on hard disk and a paper copy--one room is dedicated to the
tracking of all parts ever made). This serial number can tell them when
the part was made, where the materials came from, who was in charge of
machining and quality control and much more. What this means is that if a
part ever goes bad, they can trace its origin and if needed, let an
Advisory Directive (AD) out to only the affected engines instead of all the
engines (which doesn't matter to us because we don't have to compy with ADs
if we don't want to).
Anyway, by now you can probably start to understand how things are done
there. Once the parts have come this far, they will be matched to the
engine. For example, pistons; JPX makes different pistons with slightly
different tolerances, so that they can use slightly smaller pistons (they
expand a bit more) for the two rear cylinders that get a little hotter than
the front ones. They also match piston weights to connecting rod weights
in order to get extremelly well balanced engines. The level of precision
that goes into each engines was short of baffling to me. As ridiculous as
it may sound, I really felt like there was too much precision and time
spent on each engine. It doesn't take that MUCH precision to make a good
engine, but that's the only way they know how to do things, which stems
from their Formula One car racing experience. Racing teams need the
highest possible precision and quality for their cars, and that's what JPX
has always provided them. I must say that I am very happy that's the way
they do things, because it brings peace of mind while flying over less than
desirable landscapes. The disadvantage to this high quality are the low
production numbers, and the time it takes to make the engines. We
generally have to wait 6 to 8 weeks to get engines.
> I'm glad I have some time before I select an engine to allow some of
these
> issues to shake out.
>
> Greg F.
Greg, thank you for posting these questions, they have given me an
opportunity to educate a few people, and I hope I won't get flamed for
sounding like a salesman. I just thought you might like a little more
background on the engine, the maker, and the importer.
Philippe Leroy
Cochise Air Sports Center
Willcox, AZ, USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin Gould <rgould1(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aft wing root extensions |
Grant Corriveau wrote:
> - I've seen a couple of aircraft where
> these have been bent when someone accidently failed to observe the 'NO STEP'
sign. I've been
> trying to think of a way to make this area strong enough to withstand an accidental
step
> without damage. Any ideas out there? Or is this NOT really a common problem...
Grant:
I have expermented this problem and come up with one solution. After
making some sort of
temporary jig (or extra ribs) to keep the root extension stape
stable,fill the interior
of the sheet "V" with expanding foam used for insulating.This stuff
comes in a arisol
style can with a long tube at the top,one brand " Polcel Insutating
Foam". CAUTION !!!
this stuff expands, a lot. VERY IMPORTANT fill the interior in many
stages!! Put some
deep in the "V" let it grow and HARDEN, Then another layer,let harden
and another and
so forth. If you do not do it in stages,the growing pressure will
distort the aluminum
shape (hence the jig).Take your time and do not worry about a few voids
in the interior
which will result from the layer process.Do not rush it.
This becomes a alumimum foam composit,it is VERY strong. Bend up some
scrap, make a sample, try it,(let it completely HARDEN) stand on it.
Compare that to an unsuported
wing root extension.
Robin Gould
601 HD,San Jose, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bending .095 L material |
<<
Here's one for you. Tomorrow, I'd like to drill and cleco the thick .095
"L" pieces (6V11-5) that go from front to aft along side of the landing gear
housing under the wing. The instructions say to bend the "L" material so it
follows the curved contour under the wing. I've heard two different way
suggested to bend these pieces of the kit that are precut to 600 mm long.
Based on good sucess, can you please suggest a way to bend these thick "L"'s
smoothly. Thanks! Fred
>>
Hi Fred:
With work gloves on, I place the extrusion (where it needs to be bent) on the
small width of a 2X4 block of wood (supported by a vise) and then push down on
opposite ends. I move the extrusion a little and push down about three times.
For this piece, that is all you have to do. Repeat if you need to bend it a
little more. When you move the extrusion and push down as you go within the
area to be bent, the result is a smooth bend.
Hope this helps!
Dick (601-HDS, finishing up on the wheels and gears this weekend...)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
<<
I've been looking to rent/buy? a swagging tool for the 1/8" nicopress
sleeves. I thought this
would be available at the local tool rental store - but NOT...
I really don't want to pay $200 for an industrial strength unit that I'll use
only once...
>>
Grant:
I bought the "economy" swagging tool from Aircraft Spruce (you'll find it in
their catalog on the same page as the expensive $200 units are). I paid I
think about $40. for it, maybe not that much. You use a wrench to operate the
tool, and it is very good for my needs. I recommend it.
Dick (601-HDS, also swagging the control cables as I finish up the front of
the forward fuselage at the oven, er hangar).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joa" <joa(at)teleport.com> |
I know this has been discussed (I searched the archives) but what "less
expensive" source are the US guys purchasing Avex rivets from (flat or
domed)?
Thanks!
Joa
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Torque Tube 6V13-3 |
<<
The plans state that the bushing that goes into the torque tube 6V13-3
(bottom right of 6V13) needs to be welded into position and then sanded
down smooth. The original zenith manual states that all welding is done by
the factory and should only be done by professionals. Questions is, did
this come completed in other peoples kits and if not, how did people get
this step completed? (type of weld required etc..).
Thanks
>>
Andrew:
The bushing was already welded into the torque tube that came with my kit.
There is also a plug that goes into the busing and that is where you bolt on
the control stick. I used lithium grease for lubrication before bolting on
the control stick.
That is true, in the kit you won't have to do any welding (am glad for that!).
All the welds supplied in the kit so far appear to be excellent in
workmanship.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Torque Tube 6V13-3 |
<<
What I then installed is actually labeled as an 'INSERT' (see the label just
beside the arrow
that shows the insert going into the bushing - just to the left of that
previous 'NOTE').
>>
I said it wrong in my previous post - I called the "insert" a plug. Sorry if
I confused anyone. Let's try again:
The bushing is already welded inside the torque tube. After smoothening out
the insert, apply lubrication, then put the insert inside the bushing, and
then install the control stick over the insert (insert is slightly sticking
out of the bushing on both sides of the torque tube), and then install the
bolt through the control stick mounting plate and through the insert.
There. I hope that helps...
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Daurizio <daurizio(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
Hi Grant:
A swaged fitting is typically either an eye or a fork type piece of
stainless that is about 3-4" long, and has a hole in it for the wire.
Then you put the wire into the fitting, and use successive passes
through a rolling machine, which cold forms the fitting onto the
cable. When done correctly, I believe that it is as strong as the
cable itself, where an eye made with Nicropress sleeves isn't nearly
as strong as the cable.
Sailboats use swaged fittings for all standing rigging - the wires
that hold the mast up, which need to be very strong because they don't
have much leverage - the boat is only so wide...
I hope this helps. It's difficult to explain, but next time you see a
sailboat, take a look at the cables that run down from the mast to the
deck, and you'll see what I mean. To answer your question, I have
always called the tool with which you compress Nicropress sleeves, a
Nicropress Tool. Nicropress is a brand name, and they sell lots of
different stuff. Pretty useful, really. sorry to be so long winded.
Good luck.
Tom
---Grant Corriveau wrote:
>
>
> Tom Daurizio wrote:
>
> > There aren't any swaged ends on the Zodiac, are there? Swaging is
much
> > more difficult to do correctly, especially without significant
> > practice, and proper, well maintained equipment (which is really
> > expensive). I bet I screwed up at least a couple of thousand
dollars
> > worth of rigging before I finally got good swaged ends. Good thing
> > they didn't have a policy of docking pay...
> >
> > Nicropress sleeves are pretty easy to do right, though.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Tom,
> I'm obviously mis-using the terminology. I would appreciate some
more explanation. What
> exactly is swagging then? And what is the tool called that one uses
to compress the
> nicopress sleeves? A 'nicopress tool?'
>
> Thanks for the clarification,
> Grant Corriveau
> Montreal
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fothergill <mfothergill(at)interhop.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aft wing root extensions |
>
> I've seen a couple of aircraft where these have been bent when someone
>accidently failed to observe the 'NO STEP' sign. I've been trying to think
>of a way to make this area strong enough to withstand an accidental step
>without damage. Any ideas out there?
>
>+++ I heard Nicholas say that the demo plane had been damaged several times
>in the past because of people accidentally steping on the "no step" area,
>and they had replaced this area with a new one made of thicker material.
>Also, a friend of mine that is building a 601 HD made several extra ribs
>that he installed in that area on his. Still not totally prepared for "Big
>Foot", but better. Fred
>
>Fred;
I've been lucky so far (700 hrs) Make the "No Step" sign big, and remember
that you want to keep the weight down.
Mike
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cliffsuss(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: JPX engines? |
Philippe,
Your detailed report of the JPX engine was appreciated. This is the sort of
input we builders need to make that big decision. As for bias, you wouldn't be
much of a salesman if you didn't believe in your product.
Previous comments regarding the Jabiru remarked on its ease of installation,
how would you compare the JPX 90?
Will Leroy Enterprises be offering a fire forward assembly, or will something
have to be worked out with ZAC?
Nothing wrong with beating your own drum, as long as its factual and truthful.
And being a fellow builder, we wouldn't expect otherwise from you.
BTW, I appreciate the nitride coating, we switched to same on our punch
tooling and extended the service life of the punches on the CNC press.
Keep the info coming!
Cliff Martin 601HDS
Still in a holding pattern.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joa" <joa(at)teleport.com> |
A while ago someone mentioned the name and address of a Canadian fellow who
is selling his 4' sheet metal brake plans. I contacted him and the brake
seemed like a good unit but I have since lost his address. Do any of you
happen to know the fellow I'm describing?
Thanks!
Joa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Nolan <nv_nolan(at)apollo.commnet.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: JPX engines? |
Philippe,
Thanks for the details on the JPX manufacturing methods. Much appreciated.
How long have you been the exclusive importer and how many have been sold?
Do you have a web site that details the engine specs or is an info pack
available for purchase?
Thanks.
Ed
>
>Hello,
>
>If I may, I'd like to answer some of your very good concerns about the JPX
>engines on behalf of my father, Johnny Leroy, exclusive importer of JPX
>aircraft engines for the USA.
>
>> I really like the design of the JPX engine. I spoke with them at length
>at
>> Oshkosh. The real issue for me is that although it has extensive
>> experience overseas, it has none here in the U.S.
>
>All that I can say is that I personally visited the JPX factory in France
>for 4 days (all expenses paid by JPX) and I was extremelly impressed with
>the quality of the work and the highly skilled technicians (apx. 80). The
>engines are made in limited numbers so that the quality can be highly
>respected. Recognizing that the media has not been very helpful with the
>introduction of this engine in the USA, JPX and Dyn'Aero (manufacturer of
>the MCR-01 Banbi), with the opportunity of the French 100 year of aviation
>celebration coming up, have invited the American aviation media to take a
>first look at the operations that go on in the factories. From what I saw
>when I visited JPX, I can guarantee that the media will be blown away by
>what they see, which will hopefully relax people's attitudes about this
>unknown engine (in the U.S.). It will only be a matter of time before you
>can talk to other JPX users about their experiences.
>
>> The other thing is getting replacement parts. Could be a nightmare if
>the
>> U.S. market doesn't take-off for JPX, and they have only a few engines
>over
>> here.
>
> As the exclusive importer of JPX for the USA/Canada, it would be
>impossible for us to sell engines and not have replacement parts available.
> First, because JPX requires us to have a minimum quantity of parts, and
>second, because as consumers, we know first hand , the importance of having
>parts ready to ship on the same day. We can't have people waiting for
>weeks for a simple thing like a gasket.
> Whether the market takes off or not, Leroy Enterprises, Inc. will still
be
>here selling JPX engines and parts/service. JPX is not our only source of
>income. We do not have to solely rely on the business of selling JPX
>engines to survive, we operate other businesses that will assure Leroy
>Enterprises to be around for a long time. Now, for you skeptics, if we do
>go out of business because of the end of the world, JPX will automatically
>appoint a new importer. People would pay an arm and a leg to be in the
>position we're in--at the top that is.
>
>
>> The big disappointment for me was the Jabiru. I learned some things that
>> didn't set to well with me on the design end. First, everything is
>> machined; from the cylinders to the crank. Second, no case hardening or
>> surface protection is given to either the cylinders or crank. They are
>> just straight-up 4140. They tell me that they machine everything because
>> they don't have the volume to tool-up casting and forging.
>
> Here are a few of my personal UNBIASED feelings about the Jabiru and the
>performance it will yield on our Zodiacs. The "claimed 80 HP" engine will
>not get you the performance numbers that the Rotax 912 or JPX 4TX
>will--just ask Chris Heintz what he thinks about the Jabirus on the Gemini
>project.
>If you guys want to get the advertised performance numbers on the Zodiac
>with a Jabiru, you will need to get the six cylinder version. But don't be
>expecting 120 hp!!! A more realistic rating for the six cyl. is 100 hp.
>
> Now, I don't have anything to say about how the Jabiru is made, because
I
>don't know how it's made. What I can tell you however is how the JPX is
>made. Most internal and external parts of the JPX are protected against
>the ill effects of corrosion. They use different processes depending on
>the parts in question. For example, the forged chromoly crankshaft is
>nitrided on the surface (it provides a very hard surface and it's
>extremelly corrosion proof), the prop hub is also made the same way as the
>crank, the case is protected with a high temp corrosion proof process, and
>most other critical components have some kind of corrosion protection.
>Unfortunately, only a hand full of knowledgeable people understand the
>value of such attention to detail.
> Also, JPX operates their own state of the art foundry, next door to the
>main machining department. Following are the typical steps involved in
>making a part at JPX: Raw materials comes in and samples of the shipment
>go to one of the quality control labs where they check the material's
>molecular make up against industry standards. If the material meets or
>exceeds the minimum standards (remember that the engine is JAR certified),
>the material gets used to make parts. If the parts are to be cast, the
>metal ingots go to the foundry and they are melted to specific temperatures
>and parts are made using various methods such as lost wax, sand, and foam,
>etc.
> From there, EACH new parts goes through a quality inspection before it
>gets machined. Once the machining is done, guess what, back to the lab for
>more quality control on EACH part. Tolerances are checked and each part,
>if passed, is beautifully CNC engraved with a serial number that JPX keeps
>on file (on hard disk and a paper copy--one room is dedicated to the
>tracking of all parts ever made). This serial number can tell them when
>the part was made, where the materials came from, who was in charge of
>machining and quality control and much more. What this means is that if a
>part ever goes bad, they can trace its origin and if needed, let an
>Advisory Directive (AD) out to only the affected engines instead of all the
>engines (which doesn't matter to us because we don't have to compy with ADs
>if we don't want to).
> Anyway, by now you can probably start to understand how things are done
>there. Once the parts have come this far, they will be matched to the
>engine. For example, pistons; JPX makes different pistons with slightly
>different tolerances, so that they can use slightly smaller pistons (they
>expand a bit more) for the two rear cylinders that get a little hotter than
>the front ones. They also match piston weights to connecting rod weights
>in order to get extremelly well balanced engines. The level of precision
>that goes into each engines was short of baffling to me. As ridiculous as
>it may sound, I really felt like there was too much precision and time
>spent on each engine. It doesn't take that MUCH precision to make a good
>engine, but that's the only way they know how to do things, which stems
>from their Formula One car racing experience. Racing teams need the
>highest possible precision and quality for their cars, and that's what JPX
>has always provided them. I must say that I am very happy that's the way
>they do things, because it brings peace of mind while flying over less than
>desirable landscapes. The disadvantage to this high quality are the low
>production numbers, and the time it takes to make the engines. We
>generally have to wait 6 to 8 weeks to get engines.
>
>> I'm glad I have some time before I select an engine to allow some of
>these
>> issues to shake out.
>>
>> Greg F.
>
>Greg, thank you for posting these questions, they have given me an
>opportunity to educate a few people, and I hope I won't get flamed for
>sounding like a salesman. I just thought you might like a little more
>background on the engine, the maker, and the importer.
>
>Philippe Leroy
>Cochise Air Sports Center
>Willcox, AZ, USA
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Decker <tdecker(at)spectra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Avex sources |
>
>I know this has been discussed (I searched the archives) but what "less
>expensive" source are the US guys purchasing Avex rivets from (flat or
>domed)?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Joa
Joa , Check with your local fastener places ( check the yellow pages of your
phone
book ) . I'm using the Avex low dome rivets number 1691-0412 (1/8") and
1691-0514 (5/32") . The 1/8" rivets cost me $112.50 for 5000 . The 5/32"
rivets cost $ 199.50 for 3000 .
The rivets that Zenith uses I believe are number 1604-0412 (1/8") and
1604-0514 (5/32")countersunk rivets .
Hope this will help .
.....Tom Decker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
>
> Philippe,
>
> Your detailed report of the JPX engine was appreciated. This is the sort
of
> input we builders need to make that big decision. As for bias, you
wouldn't be
> much of a salesman if you didn't believe in your product.
Thank you. You're right, I do believe in the JPX engines and that's why
I'm in this boat. When I was much younger, a business man sponsored me as
an Amway dealer with promises of great wealth. Well, I never really
believed in their products and I only ended up selling some to my mother.
> Previous comments regarding the Jabiru remarked on its ease of
installation,
> how would you compare the JPX 90?
Both engines install very easily since there isn't any liquid cooling to
install, and no dry sump lubrication system either.
> Will Leroy Enterprises be offering a fire forward assembly, or will
something
> have to be worked out with ZAC?
We have a firewall forward installation package available. Open
http://www.leroyent.com/601firewall.htm
for more specifics.
> Nothing wrong with beating your own drum, as long as its factual and
truthful.
> And being a fellow builder, we wouldn't expect otherwise from you.
>
> BTW, I appreciate the nitride coating, we switched to same on our punch
> tooling and extended the service life of the punches on the CNC press.
Those coatings are expensive and time consuming to apply, but the end
result is a product with greater longevity, or in other words, reliability.
That's why I try to find cobalt or Tin coated drill bits for my Zenair.
The regular High Speed Steel bits simply don't last.
Philippe Leroy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Philippe Leroy" <jpleroy(at)ssvec.org> |
Well, I've got my fuselage close to getting up on its gear. I'm going to
try using nutplates on the inside of the extruded gear slides (main gear)
so that I can attach the AN3 bolts from the outside instead of the inside.
This way, If I ever need to service the bungees, I'll just have to easily
remove the bolts to access the bungees. Has anyone ever used such a
technique? Someone at Oshkosh told me about this idea, but I can't
remember for sure who it was.
Also, what is the best way to attach the aluminum gear forks to the welded
steel gear legs?
In other words, should I drill the square steel leg first (4 corner holes),
or the aluminum gear forks?
Thanks,
Philippe Leroy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fothergill <mfothergill(at)interhop.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear |
>
>Well, I've got my fuselage close to getting up on its gear. I'm going to
>try using nutplates on the inside of the extruded gear slides (main gear)
>so that I can attach the AN3 bolts from the outside instead of the inside.
>This way, If I ever need to service the bungees, I'll just have to easily
>remove the bolts to access the bungees. Has anyone ever used such a
>technique? Someone at Oshkosh told me about this idea, but I can't
>remember for sure who it was.
>
>Also, what is the best way to attach the aluminum gear forks to the welded
>steel gear legs?
>In other words, should I drill the square steel leg first (4 corner holes),
>or the aluminum gear forks?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Philippe Leroy
>
>Phiippe;
I clamped them together very securely using the bungee slide tubes to make
sure that the forks and the slides are square (ie the wheels will be
straight). Then I drilled 1/8" pilot holes for the bolts, then 3/16" holes
and finally the 1/4" holes. Use long drills from the steel post side so
that the holes are at right angles to the steel plates. It worked well.
Mike >
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sanclemente <an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear |
Philippe,
Im sure theres 100 different ways to do this, what I did that worked
relatively well was to first drill the steel legs with pilot holes, I then
FIRMLY clamped the aluminum doublers to the steel leg, its very important
the the doublers are straight and cannot move. Then using a right-angle
drill I drilled through the pilot holes in the steel and into the aluminum
doublers. After drilling through with say #40 or #30, you go back around
and drill out to size. Worked quite well for me,
good luck
- Andrew (601 HDS)
>Also, what is the best way to attach the aluminum gear forks to the welded
>steel gear legs?
>In other words, should I drill the square steel leg first (4 corner holes),
>or the aluminum gear forks?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Philippe Leroy
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Web Technology Partners (formerly Strategic Systems Development)
900 Chelmsford Street
Lowell, MA 01851-8207
Tel: (978) 551-5361
Fax: (978) 551-5351
Email: an_sanclemente(at)webtechpartners.com
Please visit us at http://www.webtechpartners.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fothergill <mfothergill(at)interhop.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear |
>
>Well, I've got my fuselage close to getting up on its gear. I'm going to
>try using nutplates on the inside of the extruded gear slides (main gear)
>so that I can attach the AN3 bolts from the outside instead of the inside.
>This way, If I ever need to service the bungees, I'll just have to easily
>remove the bolts to access the bungees. Has anyone ever used such a
>technique? Someone at Oshkosh told me about this idea, but I can't
>remember for sure who it was.
>
>Also, what is the best way to attach the aluminum gear forks to the welded
>steel gear legs?
>In other words, should I drill the square steel leg first (4 corner holes),
>or the aluminum gear forks?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Philippe Leroy
>
Plillippe;>
P.S. I should have said that you should pilot hole the steel plates with
1/8" drill, then clamp.
Mike
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
| Subject: | Keep building - it's worth it |
Hey Guys:
Here's a little inspiration:
Today I had to go to a meeting in Toronto. Where I live, between Hamilton
and Niagara Falls, I must travel the busiest highways in the country in
order to get to T.O.
Typically, I can get about 10 miles down the road until I run into the
morning traffice jam. Then it's stop and go driving for the next 1.5 to 2
hours in order to cover all of 40 miles. Usually by the time I get to
Toronto, I'm so frustrated that I have no interest in attending meetings.
Well today I changed that. I fired up the CH300 at Grimsby Airpark, flew
around the lakeshore and landed at Toronto Island (30 minutes later), was
greeted by a beautiful woman at the Shell FBO, was driven to the ferry by
golf cart, and then I had a leisurely walk along the lakeshore to Bay
Street (past the CN tower and Skydome, but the Bluejays weren't practising
yet).
Had my meeting, offered my friend a lift to London. We went back to the
ferry, saw a lot of nice boats, took the golf cart to the Shell FBO, were
greeted by another beautiful woman, paid our tie down fee and took off.
Landed my friend in London 50 minutes later, turned around and arrived at
Grimsby 40 minutes after that. The whole trip was faster than it would
have taken me to drive straight home from Toronto through the rush hour
traffic (which we observed was at a standstill on the QEW).
So keep building guys. Days like this make all the frustrations worthwhile.
Craig
PS. Must be time for one of Bernie's stories.
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Engenfellner Advanced Aircraft |
Have all of you guys seen the Engenfellner direct drive EJ22 add?
I asked them about the weight versus the EA-81 and here is the response:
The EA-81 with a reduction drive weighs 200 lbs. (engine only) The EJ22
Direct Drive weighs 220 lbs - engine only. The benefit is a more modern
engine, a derated engine for long life instead of an 80 hp engine hopped
up to 100 hp. The EA-81 100 hp would be for takeoff only contrary to 2.2's
continuous 100 hp.
Do you feel a 220 lb engine would work in a Zodiac? The physical size
similar to the EA-81 with a reduction drive.
Sounds interesting.
Bill Morelli
HDS - 6-3798 - working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Nicopress squeezers |
I found an answer to my own question yesterday.
Some on this list have mentioned using a nicopress tool that squeezed by manually
tightening
two bolts, (vs. the 'bolt-cutter' style hand-tool that looks like a large pair
of scissors).
I almost bought one of those, but upon a closer inspection I could tell that it
would only
make one squeeze on the entire sleeve, as opposed to three shorter ones that the
'bolt-cutter'
tool requires to be made along the length of the sleeve.
In the "Acceptable Methods" handbook I read that cables up to 3/32" require only
one
compression on the sleeve and are good for about 1,000 lbs strength. Cables of
1/8" or
greater (i.e. the HD/HDS model), require 3 compressions on the sleeve and are then
'certified'
for a nominal strength of a little over 2,000 lbs.
For what it's worth....
Grant Corriveau
601 hds 6-2220 (50.1%)
Montreal
ewhere?
Thanks,
Grant Corriveau
601 hds 6-2220 (50.5%)
Montreal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engenfellner Advanced Aircraft |
>As I am getting to the point when I actually have to order an engine, I
would be >interested in learning more about the EJ22. Who builds it? Is
there an internet >site or brochure available somewhere?
Grant,
Here is the internet address: http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/
I am also interested. It would be nice to have an engine that is direct
drive and can output 100 hp in cruise.
At the web site you can view an article from Contact Magazine about
Eggenfellner.
Also they are in Nashua, New Hampshire (not too far from Montreal).
If you really get interested, and would like to take a drive down to Nashua
to see the company and engines first hand, let me know. I am in the
Burlington, Vermont area. You could come to my place (check out my Zodiac)
and we could drive down to Nashua.
Regards,
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Keep building - it's worth it |
Hi Craig,
I've driven the QEW 401 during rush hour. It sucks!!! What a pleasure it
would be to fly over the land lubbers with a big grin. Thanks for the pep talk
and keeping it all in perspective. I have been stuck on my out board wings
for about 3 weeks now trying to resolve the proper installation of my wing
tanks. I'm hoping to get back to serious work once I get my fuel probes from
Skysports.
Is flying over Niagra Falls legal or is it restricted airspace? If legal, how
low can you go?
Steve
PS I grew up in Buffalo, but am Canadian by birth and I miss the great white
north, eh!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cps <cps(at)tisd.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nicopress squeezers |
Grant Corriveau wrote:
>
>
> I found an answer to my own question yesterday.
>
> Some on this list have mentioned using a nicopress tool that squeezed
> by manually tightening
> two bolts, (vs. the 'bolt-cutter' style hand-tool that looks like a
> large pair of scissors).
>
> I almost bought one of those, but upon a closer inspection I could
> tell that it would only
> make one squeeze on the entire sleeve, as opposed to three shorter
> ones that the 'bolt-cutter'
> tool requires to be made along the length of the sleeve.
>
> In the "Acceptable Methods" handbook I read that cables up to 3/32"
> require only one
> compression on the sleeve and are good for about 1,000 lbs strength.
> Cables of 1/8" or
> greater (i.e. the HD/HDS model), require 3 compressions on the sleeve
> and are then 'certified'
> for a nominal strength of a little over 2,000 lbs.
>
> For what it's worth....
>
> Grant Corriveau
> 601 hds 6-2220 (50.1%)
> Montreal
>
> Grant, I compressed mine yesterday with the manual $35 two bolt
> nicropress tool. You can get three compressions with this tool with a
> little practice.
Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TWhiteh465(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: SVS-1400 for Zodiac? |
Just a quick note to let u know that i am 6'4" and weigh over 250 and I fit
into the 601 hds nicely. Visited Jim Tilman in Charlotte, NC who is near
completion of the hds. I encountered lots of headroom with the bubble canopy
and was very surprised with the room.
Toney Whitehead
e-mail twhiteh(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Westridge <jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com> |
Great, Thanks for the info
Dave Westridge
-----Original Message-----
From: DR LYLE D PAHNKE JR MD [SMTP:LD_PAHNKE(at)prodigy.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 1998 8:00 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A /C SPRUCE
I've used Wicks, no problem next day service every time and they give
you an account number that is an open ended account. Give them a try.
No minimum orders, but so far no trouble. Also Gulf coast Avionics
has been very helpful for technical info re instruments. I will have
them do my panel. Also there are CD roms available with almost all
business Phone numbers and addresses available to talk directly to
Vendors. Good luck. Doug P.
ir shipping cost
when it came in. Well that didn't work either, after two weeks I called
back to find out where the partial shipment was and they said, "we're still
awaiting your order so we don't bill you twice for shipping two shipments.
3 phone calls later and a week in time lost while Jane sorted it out again.
Then I get a call the partial shipment is enroute and the remainder of my
order is due out in a week or ten days. The partial shipment arrived but it
was not what I needed to get started so I stored it and called again. Two
weeks later I get a call my "tubing" is in and will be shipped out ASAP. So
I ask, what tubing? I ordered angle extrusion and bar stock. "Oh, well let
me check". Couple of more days go by, Oh yes it is angle and bar and we
have it ready can we ship? The freight will be $44.00. No I don't think so,
call Jane, its supposed to be prepaid by YOU for messing up my order!!!
Couple of days more, RING, We have your tubimg shipment ready to go prepaid
can we send it? Tubing, what tubing???????? I WANT angle and bar stock. To
end I finally got it and as I opened the cardboard container I had NO idea
what I would find. Lucky it was right, SOOOOOOOOO I will most likely order
elsewhere next time, too hard and too long to deal with them and I have NO
assurance they know what they are really doing. Sounds like they have a
management nightmare in A/C Spruce.
Dave Westridge
-----Original Message-----
From: SLF998(at)aol.com [SMTP:SLF998(at)aol.com]
Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 4:00 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com; info(at)aircraft-spruce.com
Subject: Zenith-List: A /C SPRUCE
Hi Group,
I just wanted to write about a recent expereince with Aircraft Spruce I
thught
you folks might be interested in. As a result I have decided I will no
longer
use them. I will do my best to do my homework and find the products I need
from other sources. It is the only power a person has as a consumer.
In the last week of July I ordered 2 capacitance fuel probes (among other
things)from A/C Spruce to install in my wing tanks. They arrived with
absoultely no instructions what-so-ever. After calls to A/C spruce to get
help I determined they would not be of any assistance at all as they had no
literature they could provide and tech support for this product was non-
exsistant. A friend (Don Honabach) and fellow lister found the web page
for
SKYSPORTS which sell capacitance probes and from there I downloaded
instructions on how to install the probes.
Well to make a long story short I misread one direction and installed the
probes wrong and damaged them completely. I thought I had followed the
directions properly because as the probes were supplied it was impossible
to
install them correctly. Using the the "If it looks right, it must be
right"
method of building in this instance failed me. I did not know until
speaking
with SKYSPORTS about their product that there was no way the A/C Spruce
product would never have ever worked for me even if I had done everything
perfectly.
Well all of this is my fault for not being careful enough and not doing the
proper homework. A/C Spruce has refused me credit because they said it is
my
fault I damaged the product (which it is) even though they could supply
absolutely zero documentation on how to do it properly. I can live with
that,
it is not their job to be my technical consultant.
However, here is the kicker, I wanted to order from them their TASKEM
altimeter so I called to get addional information on the product to see if
it
was suitable for my project. (Burned once, I was not going to make the
same
mistake) When I called them I was told that the only infomation they had
was
what was printed in the catalouge. I said "no problem" and asked if I
could
have TASKEM's phone number so I could call them and get addiotional
information on the product. A/C Spruce said, and I quote "It is against
our
company policy to give out the phone numbers of our vendors."
I then asked the order rep if I was going to be charged a restock fee if I
ordered the altimeter and it ultimately did not work in my project. He
said,
"yes, 15% restocking fee" I then asked him again for TASKEM's phone number
so
I could get additional product information and he restated A/C Spruces
position regarding that.
I then asked him to clarify what he was saying by stating to him that "You
mean to tell me, that you can not provide any additional information on
this
product, are unwilling to give me the information I need to get additional
information and therefore I have to order from you blind, and if the
product
doesn't work for me, you are going to charge me 15% to return it to you?"
He
said "That is correct" I then said to him that I felt the policy was
unfair,
he then said to me and I quote verbatim "THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM, SIR"
At this point I hung up realizing that I could get no further with A/C
spruce.
I Understand it is not the place for a vendor to be a customers sole source
of
information on a product such as this but to withhold information is
inexcusable if they are not going to allow you to return the product
without a
penalty. I personally feel the arrogance of A/C Spruce is terrible and I
as
stated above I will exorcise the only power I have as a consumer and refuse
to
use them in the future. And I will make others aware of the poor customer
service I received.
I hope this note will forwarn others and hopefully save you guys some hard
earned cash. CAVEAT EMPTOR. <<<<| From: | Dave Westridge <jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com> |
Isn't it great! Check my last message re: A/C Spruce. We probably should
forward a copy of this mail to them to see if they realize how much they
are hurting their customers and therefore themselves>
Dave Westridge
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Cousins [SMTP:cousins(at)globalserve.net]
Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 5:11 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A /C SPRUCE
>
>Hi Group,
>
>I just wanted to write about a recent expereince with Aircraft Spruce I
thught
>you folks might be interested in. As a result I have decided I will no
longer
>use them. I will do my best to do my homework and find the products I
need
>from other sources. It is the only power a person has as a consumer.
>
>Steve Fremman
>601HDS, Currently stuck on outboard wings.
Steve:
It's interesting how the internet is changing our lives. Case in point -
Marketing professionals will tell you that if you get an unhappy customer,
he (or she) will tell at least 10 people.
I'm not sure how many are on this list, but you just changed long standing
statitic.
I too have had my share of problems with Aircraft Spruce. I have had to
yell pretty loud to get situations corrected. Here is a classic example of
a company that has grown large and lost both the personal touch and
expertise in products that it started with.
The people on the phone are not AME's or A & P's (at least, not most of
them) and I doubt that many of them even fly. They are trained to take
orders, put them in the computer and follow company instructions.
I had an experience with Leavens Aviation in Toronto a few weeks ago. I
ordered some bolts and a few other pieces of hardware. The guy on the
phone says, "We have a minimum $25.00 order". He was serious. Didn't want
to process my order. So I got a little PeeOwwed and told the guy, "Listen,
I spent $1100.00 at your establishment last week. I have accces to just
about every important e-mail list related to aviation on the internet.
Your failure to process my order will be duly noted on as many web sites
and e-mail lists as I can access. All of Canada will know of your failure
to provide customer service"
Don't you just love the internet - cause, guess what???? I had the power
to change the statistics. They processed my order.
So Steve, don't think that the only power you have as a consumer is the
power to boycot. You have this immense communications system to tell
hundreds of people about your displeasure with this company.
And you know what, if someone is smart, they will forward a copy of your
letter to the big cheese at AS. They should know that you just told
hundreds of people your story - and be very concerned.
Cheers
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Westridge <jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com> |
Bravo - I thought I was alone out here with my poor experience with A/C Spruce.
Think I'll try Wicks next time.
Dave Westridge
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Honabach [SMTP:don(at)pcperfect.com]
Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 5:53 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Cc: info@aircraft-spruce.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A /C SPRUCE
Steve,
For what it's worth, you are definitely not the only one that has had
problems with Aircraft Spruce. I have been debating as to whether or not to
continue doing business with them. After your letter and comments, I have
decided that I'd rather spend my money with a company that will appreciate
it.
FYI - Problem history with A/C Spruce:
1. Place an order for miscellaneous parts and 24 cans of Zinc Oxide. Gave
the order entry person my CC # and was thanked for the order. During no time
did the order entry person give any indication that there would be any sort
of delay. After approximately two weeks, my order hadn't arrived.
So I called and was told by the order entry people that the order was in
process and they had no ETA. Slightly upset, I finally got to someone over
in the "customer service" department. Only then was I told that for large
orders (the 24 cans of Zinc Oxide) they have to do an analysis to determine
if it is going to neglectively impact their stock for smaller orders. Give
me a break. Final result is that the order was pushed through and showed up
a couple days later.
It still makes no sense that with all the ordered product sitting in a
warehouse why an order isn't processed same or next day. Not to mention
their socialist attitude towards preserving stock for small orders. Wrote a
letter to the "big wig" and was called back by a rep. manager in customer
service. Basically told to ask when I place a large order to contact
customer service to push the order through. Like I've got time! But no
apology was given.
2. Called on the same fuel probes that Steve F. had ordered and tried to
get technical literature or a company reference. A/C Spruce actually puts
their label on these products as the manufacturer. When talking with
customer service was told that they had no technical material available.
Asked to speak with someone in technical support and all I got was
"technical support, huh?".
In my business (computer networking), I would love to see a clients reaction
if they called and asked for HP, IBM, Seagate, etc. phone number and I told
them it wasn't our policy to give manufacturers numbers out. Give me a
break- we'd have no clients if that was our attitude.
I'm just glad that my trip to Oshkosh presented me with plenty of company's
to choose from and that I'm no longer dependant on A/C Spruce. If time
permits, I'll send a note to A/C Spruce everytime I place an order with
another company to show them how they lost $5,000 to $10,000 of sales for my
home-built project.
Well, I feel well vented. Please take them time and vote with your money. No
company in today's market deserves to have your money while they provide
slow, arrogant, and poor service.
Regards,
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS - Working on outboard wings.
602.966.0772
http://www.pcperfect.com/zodiac
-----Original Message-----
From: SLF998(at)aol.com <SLF998(at)aol.com>
info@aircraft-spruce.com
Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 1:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: A /C SPRUCE
>
>Hi Group,
>
>I just wanted to write about a recent expereince with Aircraft Spruce I
thught
>you folks might be interested in. As a result I have decided I will no
longer
>use them. I will do my best to do my homework and find the products I need
>from other sources. It is the only power a person has as a consumer.
>
>In the last week of July I ordered 2 capacitance fuel probes (among other
>things)from A/C Spruce to install in my wing tanks. They arrived with
>absoultely no instructions what-so-ever. After calls to A/C spruce to get
>help I determined they would not be of any assistance at all as they had no
>literature they could provide and tech support for this product was non-
>exsistant. A friend (Don Honabach) and fellow lister found the web page
for
>SKYSPORTS which sell capacitance probes and from there I downloaded
>instructions on how to install the probes.
>
>Well to make a long story short I misread one direction and installed the
>probes wrong and damaged them completely. I thought I had followed the
>directions properly because as the probes were supplied it was impossible
to
>install them correctly. Using the the "If it looks right, it must be
right"
>method of building in this instance failed me. I did not know until
speaking
>with SKYSPORTS about their product that there was no way the A/C Spruce
>product would never have ever worked for me even if I had done everything
>perfectly.
>
>Well all of this is my fault for not being careful enough and not doing the
>proper homework. A/C Spruce has refused me credit because they said it is
my
>fault I damaged the product (which it is) even though they could supply
>absolutely zero documentation on how to do it properly. I can live with
that,
>it is not their job to be my technical consultant.
>
>However, here is the kicker, I wanted to order from them their TASKEM
>altimeter so I called to get addional information on the product to see if
it
>was suitable for my project. (Burned once, I was not going to make the
same
>mistake) When I called them I was told that the only infomation they had
was
>what was printed in the catalouge. I said "no problem" and asked if I
could
>have TASKEM's phone number so I could call them and get addiotional
>information on the product. A/C Spruce said, and I quote "It is against
our
>company policy to give out the phone numbers of our vendors."
>
>I then asked the order rep if I was going to be charged a restock fee if I
>ordered the altimeter and it ultimately did not work in my project. He
said,
>"yes, 15% restocking fee" I then asked him again for TASKEM's phone number
so
>I could get additional product information and he restated A/C Spruces
>position regarding that.
>
>I then asked him to clarify what he was saying by stating to him that "You
>mean to tell me, that you can not provide any additional information on
this
>product, are unwilling to give me the information I need to get additional
>information and therefore I have to order from you blind, and if the
product
>doesn't work for me, you are going to charge me 15% to return it to you?"
He
>said "That is correct" I then said to him that I felt the policy was
unfair,
>he then said to me and I quote verbatim "THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM, SIR"
>
>At this point I hung up realizing that I could get no further with A/C
spruce.
>
>I Understand it is not the place for a vendor to be a customers sole source
of
>information on a product such as this but to withhold information is
>inexcusable if they are not going to allow you to return the product
without a
>penalty. I personally feel the arrogance of A/C Spruce is terrible and I
as
>stated above I will exorcise the only power I have as a consumer and refuse
to
>use them in the future. And I will make others aware of the poor customer
>service I received.
>
>I hope this note will forwarn others and hopefully save you guys some hard
>earned cash. CAVEAT EMPTOR. <<<<
>
>Steve Fremman
>601HDS, Currently stuck on outboard wings.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep building - it's worth it |
>
>Hi Craig,
>
>I've driven the QEW 401 during rush hour. It sucks!!! What a pleasure it
>would be to fly over the land lubbers with a big grin. Thanks for the pep
talk
>and keeping it all in perspective. I have been stuck on my out board wings
>for about 3 weeks now trying to resolve the proper installation of my wing
>tanks. I'm hoping to get back to serious work once I get my fuel probes from
>Skysports.
>
>Is flying over Niagra Falls legal or is it restricted airspace? If legal,
how
>low can you go?
>
>Steve
>
>PS I grew up in Buffalo, but am Canadian by birth and I miss the great white
>north, eh!
>
>
Steve:
The VFR route over Niagara Falls follows a race pattern at 3500 ASL (you
have to check it in the flight supplement). Only the commercial
site-seeing helicopters get to go lower. I haven't done the route yet,
guess I'll have to give it a try since it's only 15 minutes away.
I noticed by the messages that some of the guys are getting ready to do
their panels. I'd like to suggest to everyone in the more populous States
and Ontario, that you include a mode C transponder in your budget. Case in
point, yesterday I had to fly around the lakeshore again up to Belleville.
In order to do this, you must travel underneath class C airspace at 1000
feet AGL and route through Toronto Island (which is very busy on the
weekends). With mode C, you just call into terminal, ask to go into their
airspace (and over top of all the VFR traffic) and they guide you. It's
much safer and more relaxing than trying to get through the busy, low level
non-transponder airspace.
The rest of my panel (for avionics) just has a VHF transceiver (Val-Com),
intercom and a GPS.
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net> |
| Subject: | Customer Service |
While we're on the subject of Customer Service, I would like to throw in a
couple of roses:
I have yet to hear anything negative about product support from Warp Drive
propellors and my own dealings with them have been very positive. When I
first contacted them about the possibility of using one of their props and
spinners, Daryll told me that the spinners were made in Canada and that I
could save a few buck by buying directly from the supplier. So he gives me
the name and phone number (pretty cool).
So, being that I had a wooden prop at the time (and no spinner), I called
Joe at UHS (Unionville Hobby Supply) and ordered a 10" extra deep spinner.
When I received it, I discovered that it couldn't be cut deep enough for
the wooden prop and still remain structurally sound. I called Joe back and
he said, "No problem, ship it back for a full refund" (no restocking fee).
Well, this summer I made arrangements to pick up my Warp Drive propellor at
Oshkosh, so once again I called Joe at UHS. I ordered a 10" spinner and it
arrived promptly. After looking at how it fit over the Warp Drive prop, I
was not happy that the backing plate fit so snugly over the hub. I looked
at another installation with an 11" inch spinner and decided that it was
the answer.
Back on the phone to Joe. He sends me out an 11" spinner (all I pay is the
freight and price difference) and I send him back the 10". I was so happy
with this that I included a short note to Joe thanking him for his
excellent service.
So, there are good companies out there.
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grant Corriveau <gfcorriv(at)total.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nicopress squeezers |
cps wrote:
Grant, I compressed mine yesterday with the manual $35 two bolt
nicropress tool. You can get three compressions with this tool with a
little practice.
>
Chuck
Chuck,
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks to Jean-Pierre Deschenes and the local
RAA, I should
have a line on a 'bolt cutter' that I can borrow to do most of my clamps soon,
but of course
the last few to the tail will have to be finished only when that part of the aircraft
is all
together and I know the exact length.
It might be handy to have the 'manual' tool after all as long as I can get the
three
compressions from it.
Thanks again,
Grant
erested, and would like to take a drive down to Nashua
> to see the company and engines first hand, let me know. I am in the
> Burlington, Vermont area. You could come to my place (check out my Zodiac)
> and we could drive down to Nashua.
>
> Regards,
> Bill
Hi Bill,
That's a very interesting idea. I'll keep it in mind - maybe in the fall when
the trees
are all decked out! That' d be a doubly good reason for a drive through the countryside.
There are also a couple of members on the list here in Montreal that might even
like to
take the trip as well - hey Jean-Pierre? Carlos?
Regards,
Grant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Westridge <jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com> |
| Subject: | Customer Service |
I know. I've had a couple of similar experiences with other tool suppliers
and Marine dealers I've been getting
A few things from. By the way, Marine suppliers have some really good
hardware and tools suitable for our projects, don't overlook them.
I had asked a while back about using "cut off" wheels to cut alum sheet
metal. I'm still thinking it may be better than shears/snips. Northern
Hydraulics has fiber reinforced wheels for a mandrel and airtool
application. Any one in the group ever tried this???
Dave Westridge
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Cousins [SMTP:cousins(at)globalserve.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 1998 7:18 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: Customer Service
While we're on the subject of Customer Service, I would like to throw in a
couple of roses:
I have yet to hear anything negative about product support from Warp Drive
propellors and my own dealings with them have been very positive. When I
first contacted them about the possibility of using one of their props and
spinners, Daryll told me that the spinners were made in Canada and that I
could save a few buck by buying directly from the supplier. So he gives me
the name and phone number (pretty cool).
So, being that I had a wooden prop at the time (and no spinner), I called
Joe at UHS (Unionville Hobby Supply) and ordered a 10" extra deep spinner.
When I received it, I discovered that it couldn't be cut deep enough for
the wooden prop and still remain structurally sound. I called Joe back and
he said, "No problem, ship it back for a full refund" (no restocking fee).
Well, this summer I made arrangements to pick up my Warp Drive propellor at
Oshkosh, so once again I called Joe at UHS. I ordered a 10" spinner and it
arrived promptly. After looking at how it fit over the Warp Drive prop, I
was not happy that the backing plate fit so snugly over the hub. I looked
at another installation with an 11" inch spinner and decided that it was
the answer.
Back on the phone to Joe. He sends me out an 11" spinner (all I pay is the
freight and price difference) and I send him back the 10". I was so happy
with this that I included a short note to Joe thanking him for his
excellent service.
So, there are good companies out there.
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Westridge <westridge(at)cconnect.net> |
| Subject: | Customer Service |
I know. I've had a couple of similar experiences with other tool suppliers
and Marine dealers I've been getting
A few things from. By the way, Marine suppliers have some really good
hardware and tools suitable for our projects, don't overlook them.
I had asked a while back about using "cut off" wheels to cut alum sheet
metal. I'm still thinking it may be better than shears/snips. Northern
Hydraulics has fiber reinforced wheels for a mandrel and airtool
application. Any one in the group ever tried this???
Dave Westridge
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Cousins [SMTP:cousins(at)globalserve.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 1998 7:18 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: Customer Service
While we're on the subject of Customer Service, I would like to throw in a
couple of roses:
I have yet to hear anything negative about product support from Warp Drive
propellors and my own dealings with them have been very positive. When I
first contacted them about the possibility of using one of their props and
spinners, Daryll told me that the spinners were made in Canada and that I
could save a few buck by buying directly from the supplier. So he gives me
the name and phone number (pretty cool).
So, being that I had a wooden prop at the time (and no spinner), I called
Joe at UHS (Unionville Hobby Supply) and ordered a 10" extra deep spinner.
When I received it, I discovered that it couldn't be cut deep enough for
the wooden prop and still remain structurally sound. I called Joe back and
he said, "No problem, ship it back for a full refund" (no restocking fee).
Well, this summer I made arrangements to pick up my Warp Drive propellor at
Oshkosh, so once again I called Joe at UHS. I ordered a 10" spinner and it
arrived promptly. After looking at how it fit over the Warp Drive prop, I
was not happy that the backing plate fit so snugly over the hub. I looked
at another installation with an 11" inch spinner and decided that it was
the answer.
Back on the phone to Joe. He sends me out an 11" spinner (all I pay is the
freight and price difference) and I send him back the 10". I was so happy
with this that I included a short note to Joe thanking him for his
excellent service.
So, there are good companies out there.
Craig
_|_ Craig Cousins
___(o)___
/ \ C-FTAZ
Check out the CH300 builders site at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~cousins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Newell" <anewell(at)canuck.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engenfellner Advanced Aircraft |
>
> Have all of you guys seen the Engenfellner direct drive EJ22 add?
>
> I asked them about the weight versus the EA-81 and here is the response:
>
> The EA-81 with a reduction drive weighs 200 lbs. (engine only) The EJ22
> Direct Drive weighs 220 lbs - engine only. The benefit is a more modern
> engine, a derated engine for long life instead of an 80 hp engine hopped
> up to 100 hp. The EA-81 100 hp would be for takeoff only contrary to
2.2's
> continuous 100 hp.
>
> Do you feel a 220 lb engine would work in a Zodiac? The physical size
> similar to the EA-81 with a reduction drive.
Bill:
Note that the weight given was for "engine only". It's important to know
what additional equipment is necessary to make the engine run (such as a
cooling system) and its weight. I'm sure the aircraft could take the
additional 20 lbs if thats all it is but remember you are giving up useful
weight and with a Subaru there is not a lot to spare to start with. If the
extra cruise speed is important then it might make sense but I also don't
expect you get much extra speed for the additional power. The Zodiac, even
the HDS, is a pretty "blunt object" to push through the air.
Regards,
Alan Newell, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
601HDS C-GANL
Subaru EA-81
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Keep building - it's worth it |
<<
Here's a little inspiration:
>>
Hi Craig!
I hope you guys with finished planes give us stories to inspire us to keep
going. I really do enjoy reading them, and be inspired to keep the building
momentum up.
I know there are several finished Zodiacs out there this year, and am hoping
to hear how they are all doing. When I complete my Zodiac, I have places I
want to visit and plan to write stories about them.
The Zenair web page is asking for builder's stories about their building
experiences. I thought a few nights ago that I can use my builder log to jog
my memory as I write my story after completing my Zodiac. Good thing I am
making side notes to my log as they will be useful.
How about it guys? I am sure our stories will help Bernie not feel like he is
the only one giving stories...
Dick (601-HDS, in air-conditioned basement finishing the landing gear this
weekend!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Nicopress squeezers |
<<
In the "Acceptable Methods" handbook I read that cables up to 3/32" require
only one
compression on the sleeve and are good for about 1,000 lbs strength. Cables
of 1/8" or
greater (i.e. the HD/HDS model), require 3 compressions on the sleeve and are
then 'certified'
for a nominal strength of a little over 2,000 lbs.
For what it's worth....
>>
Yep, for what it's worth.
Again, check out the squeezer from Aircraft Spruce, which is what I have. It
provides three compressions. Start in the middle, then close to the thimble,
and finally the other side of the middle.
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
<<
Bravo - I thought I was alone out here with my poor experience with A/C
Spruce. Think I'll try Wicks next time.
>>
All this talk about bad experience with A/C has me wanting to check out Wicks.
Anybody have Wick's phone number and/or address so I can order their catalog?
I have a story of my own. Last Spring, I ordered the power supply for my
Whelen strobe lights. I used the price from the catalog (it was listed for
about $260, can't remember exactly, and yes, it is pricey). I also ordered
other things as well.
I got my order minus the strobe power supply - it was back-ordered and the
price was listed as about $310 - $50 more than the catalog. I e-mailed A/C
requesting that they cancel my order (I was betting that I may get a better
deal at Oshkosh this year or elsewhere). I got an e-mail back and they said
that they agreed the price increase was a bit much but would cancel my order.
A couple weeks later, I got a package from A/C and it was the power supply and
the big price increase was already charged to my account. I was upset about
this (someone wasn't doing his job at A/C!), but here I am with the power
supply I know I would need. So, I decided to eat the extra cost and forget
it. Needless to say, I actively avoided A/C when I visited Oshkosh because I
didn't want to see if they were having a sale on their Whelen inventory. If
they did, I know I would be pissed, but I needed the power supply anyway.
So, I am willing now to give someone else my business. Go ahead and use this
letter as one of many unhappy letters about servive from A/C.
There, that felt better...
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Sa" <wings(at)mail.axess.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engenfellner Advanced Aircraft |
> > At the web site you can view an article from Contact Magazine about
> > Eggenfellner.
> > Also they are in Nashua, New Hampshire (not too far from Montreal).
> >
> > If you really get interested, and would like to take a drive down to Nashua
> > to see the company and engines first hand, let me know. I am in the
> > Burlington, Vermont area. You could come to my place (check out my Zodiac)
> > and we could drive down to Nashua.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Bill
>
> That's a very interesting idea. I'll keep it in mind - maybe in the fall when
the trees
> are all decked out! That' d be a doubly good reason for a drive through the
countryside.
>
> There are also a couple of members on the list here in Montreal that might even
like to
> take the trip as well - hey Jean-Pierre? Carlos?
>
> Grant
I'm waaay far from engine selection, but a trip like that might be fun.
I'd like to consider it...
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Customer Service |
In a message dated 8/23/98 2:39:32 PM, jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com writes:
<>
I used this method to cut my skin for the big V cut out in the stabilizer and
for the little cut out for the trim servo. I works well but you have to be
careful not to get carried away as they cut very fast. A fellow builder
sharing space ended up cutting into his rear Z on his stabilizer because he
wasn't careful. I kept warning him that he was getting close but he didn't
listen, and BAM.... Cut the Z. And don't forget to round off the inside of
your corners to prevent cracking.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Customer Service |
Fellow Listers:
Similar to Craig's experience, I was also very happy with Warp Drive's
service, price and delivery, when I purchased a prop and spinner from them
about a year ago. The product is well made and providing good performance
ever since. Their technical advice on their product is great.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net>
Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 5:15 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Customer Service
>
>While we're on the subject of Customer Service, I would like to throw in a
>couple of roses:
>
>I have yet to hear anything negative about product support from Warp Drive
>propellors and my own dealings with them have been very positive. When I
>
>So, there are good companies out there.
>
>Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> |
Fellow Listers:
I have recently read about the bad experiences some of you have had with
Aircraft Spruce (one of which is quoted at the bottom of this letter). I
have had pretty good service from them several years ago AND more recently
in the past month.
About a month back, I sent an e-mail to them requesting the latest catalog,
and I received a reply stating that the catalog is free, but there is a
$15.00 shipping and handling fee for sending it outside the USA (I live in
Calgary, Canada, about a 2-hour drive north of the border). I emailed back,
explaining that I was a previous customer and just needed the current
catalog to verify pricing, and Sheila Arnold replied that they would send it
at no charge. It arrived a few days later, and I placed my order about 2
weeks after that. The order rep explained that some items were not in stock,
so there will be two shipments, with a 2-3 week delay between. I received
the first shipment on exactly the date I asked for it to arrive (amazing for
airmail?) which was my first day back from vacation. The second shipment is
not yet due.
On the negative side, the order rep (not Sheila) was not able to answer even
basic technical questions about the products he was selling, but I took a
gamble and ordered those parts anyway.
I think it is great that Sheila was allowed to use her judgement in
contradicting company policy over the catalog shipping issue, and it
certainly worked out for everyone in the end. As a suggestion, I would like
to see more (or some) technical advice available when placing an order. At
least to answer the kind of questions that could be answered by being able
to physically examine the part first hand, as one would do if purchasing
from a local store. Perhaps a copy of the part's (or instrument's)
instruction manual could be provided upon request via fax (or email, or
available as a link on the AS website). This would remove a lot of the
burden from the order reps, and reduce the number of parts returned due to
application conflicts.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: RLucka(at)aol.com <RLucka(at)aol.com>
Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A /C SPRUCE
>
>
><<
> Bravo - I thought I was alone out here with my poor experience with A/C
>Spruce. Think I'll try Wicks next time.
> >>
>All this talk about bad experience with A/C has me wanting to check out
Wicks.
>Anybody have Wick's phone number and/or address so I can order their
catalog?
>
>I have a story of my own. Last Spring, I ordered the power supply for my
>Whelen strobe lights. I used the price from the catalog (it was listed for
>about $260, can't remember exactly, and yes, it is pricey). I also ordered
>other things as well.
>
>I got my order minus the strobe power supply - it was back-ordered and the
>price was listed as about $310 - $50 more than the catalog. I e-mailed A/C
>requesting that they cancel my order (I was betting that I may get a better
>deal at Oshkosh this year or elsewhere). I got an e-mail back and they
said
>that they agreed the price increase was a bit much but would cancel my
order.
>
>A couple weeks later, I got a package from A/C and it was the power supply
and
>the big price increase was already charged to my account. I was upset
about
>this (someone wasn't doing his job at A/C!), but here I am with the power
>supply I know I would need. So, I decided to eat the extra cost and forget
>it. Needless to say, I actively avoided A/C when I visited Oshkosh because
I
>didn't want to see if they were having a sale on their Whelen inventory.
If
>they did, I know I would be pissed, but I needed the power supply anyway.
>
>So, I am willing now to give someone else my business. Go ahead and use
this
>letter as one of many unhappy letters about servive from A/C.
>
>There, that felt better...
>
>Dick (601-HDS)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
ETAtAhR6aOSuaiu83GVqxjuGgy6pdtWmJgIVAK7pe/T4Ojmvp5ZSF5DmUMdvBtRG
| From: | jjpann(at)webtv.net (john pann) |
| Subject: | Re: Keep building - it's worth it |
on yourmail list by error.---please remove. thank you . pann.
________________________________________________________________________________
ETAsAhRhCytpmH3VygQgh1E9dTD8UuLFGAIUAo7Xv1xeBp2sSbt+/jT6Vg/ps8o=
| From: | jjpann(at)webtv.net (john pann) |
| Subject: | Re: Customer Service |
on your list by error.---please remove.---thank you. pann.
________________________________________________________________________________
ETAuAhUAtpQyL0jWM5LuD3nw2E18bs4OUbMCFQCVJ0NbtbFGbO8V0zWwvJWppBYnxg==
| From: | jjpann(at)webtv.net (john pann) |
| Subject: | Customer Service |
on your list by error.--please remove --thank you. pann
________________________________________________________________________________
ETAtAhUAgmzeFkIIUvZ3p0y6i1lmfQmUOq4CFBGf88S4qokNAdmazotbyi+rSE/e
| From: | jjpann(at)webtv.net (john pann) |
| Subject: | Re: Keep building - it's worth it |
on your mail list by error ---please remove..thank you---pann
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> |
Bill Morelli wrote:
> 1 - I noticed in the construction manual that they call out adding drain
> holes in the bottom of the fuselage to let water exit. Should this also be
> done anywhere else (like the OB wings) I imagine there will be a good
> amount of water getting in due to the wing locker hinges?
>
Hi Bill.
I think you SHOULD drill drain holes in ALL bottoms : fuselage, wings, stab.
> 2 - How and where has everyone been adding inspection panels? When you add
> an inspection panel, do you reinforce around the cutout with "L" material?
> What is used to attach the panels, nut plates and screws?
>
1. On the small panels I should open at each preflight, like fuel drain,
wing struts nuts (on my 701), or oil level, I make a square cutout, reinforce
internally with a "L" of 1 cm x 1cm. The cover is held by a small hinge
made with a thin piece of flexible plastic (don't remember the name, used for
hinges in models a/c). A couple of rivets hold a bit of "L" used externally to
open/close the cover (wind oriented).
The cover is 1cm larger than the hole with 4 cuts on the side opposed to
the hinge, giving 2 strips which lock the cover.
Bend to open, bend to close. Need a drawing ?
2. For the big panels (wing tank floor and fuselage bottom, I do like Heintz
says : a "Z" all around the hole.
For the cover I use my own favourite things :
The cover fits exactly the hole. Inside, all around the hole I put a 25mm strip
with flush rivets.
The panel is attached with plate nuts mounted on these strips with flush rivets.
No washer needed under the screws.
Any better idea welcome.
Fly safe.
Claude
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nicopress squeezers |
While at the Zenair workshop 2 years ago, I inquired as to what tool they
were using. I was shown the two bolt manual tool. If it's good enough for
the factory... FWIW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> |
Dennis Kayner wrote:
>
>
> >In France they charge $120 for a single seat and $360 for a 2-seat (third
> >party mandatory insurance with unlimited coverage).
> >Optional insurance for damage to the aircraft is annually 10% of the
> >machine price.
>
> Claude,
>
> Those are very attractive insurance rates. What would be typical fuel and
> hangar costs? Also, do you have to pay any landing fees?
>
> Just curious. Thanks.
> Dennis Kayner
> Tecumseh, Michigan
>
Dennis.
In Europe fuel is at the same price than in US, but for a liter, not for a gallon.
In France, hangar costs are typically 50 US$ a month.
Landing fees go from 0 to 20 US$, depends upon the airport boss and size of a/c.
Ultralight airstrips and "aeroclub" airfields have no fees, but it's not forbidden
to pay for a booze in the bar.
Fly safe.
Claude
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Karnes" <karnes(at)zoomnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Customer Service |
You just mentioned the two jobs that I used my dremel cut-off wheel for. I
can't imagine trying to cut that access hole for the trim servo with snips.
Yet with long cuts, such as the nose skin on the outboard wing, it would
take forever with a cut-off wheel and the snips worked just fine.
John Karnes
karnes(at)zoomnet.net
-----Original Message-----
From: SLF998(at)aol.com <SLF998(at)aol.com>
Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: Customer Service
>
>
>In a message dated 8/23/98 2:39:32 PM, jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com writes:
>
><metal. I'm still thinking it may be better than shears/snips. Northern
>Hydraulics has fiber reinforced wheels for a mandrel and airtool
>application. Any one in the group ever tried this???
>>>
>
>I used this method to cut my skin for the big V cut out in the stabilizer
and
>for the little cut out for the trim servo. I works well but you have to be
>careful not to get carried away as they cut very fast. A fellow builder
>sharing space ended up cutting into his rear Z on his stabilizer because he
>wasn't careful. I kept warning him that he was getting close but he didn't
>listen, and BAM.... Cut the Z. And don't forget to round off the inside of
>your corners to prevent cracking.
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plathey <Claude.Plathey(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: JPX engines? |
Greg Ferris wrote:
>
> I really like the design of the JPX engine. I spoke with them at length at
> Oshkosh. The real issue for me is that although it has extensive
> experience overseas, it has none here in the U.S. Therefore, there is
> noone readily available to talk to about experiences with the engine or the
> company. I've tried posting an email to the GZUB web page asking about its
> reputation, but didn't get a reply. I've also sent a message to a fellow
> lister here from France, but haven't heard back yet.
Greg.
Cool Greg cool! It's holidays here, I'm not yet getting my e-mail on the beach
!
I have no real experience of the JPX. Just subjective opinions, you know when
someone's engine goes wrong, not when it goes OK.
Therefore I'm only able to add 2 lines on the bad list :
1. In France the owners of the Cri-Cri (this little shit doing loops at 120mph
with 2 two strokes 15hp JPX engines) change for the german SOLO (designed
for agricultural water pumps). Not reliable they say.
2. Last month a friend got a minor problem (little oil leak) on a 400hrs JPX 4T60
60hp, not made anymore) on a prototype motorglider.
Nothing else bad heared.
Apologizes to Philippe Leroy.
This does not change my opinion that the 4T75 is a good engine.
To be honest, I hesitate between the following engines for the proto I'm building
for my kid, 14 y old, soloed next year, (2-seats wood and fabric, 450kg MTOW,
more or less like a CYGNET if you know, with a 75 to 90hp) :
LIMBACH (derived from VW) very reliable but heavy.
VW (you know...)
JPX 4T75, good candidate
VERNER SVS-1400, very attractive, but few hours logged today. Wait and see.
(BTW was in Aircraft Spruce 1997 catalogue at 5,999 $, disappeared this year hey
?)
ROTAX 912 (have to win to the roulette first).
Personally I prefer engines with a reductor, to fine-tune the prop rpm.
3000 or 3300 rpm seems too much to me, but it's just my humble opinion.
Fly safe
Claude
701-912 180hrs to finish, plus another wood and fabric, 180hrs done.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Customer Service |
<< such as the nose skin on the outboard wing, it would
take forever with a cut-off wheel and the snips worked just fine.
>>
I would have to agree with that 100%. I was referring more to the wing locker
doors and smaller precision cuts.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Wing Locker Doors |
I am getting ready to cut the wing locker cutouts. (boy I hate cutting into
skins) and I'm a bit confused as to how big to make them.
First, drawing 6SV-4 shows the wing locker covers as 580 x 530. Mine are
540 X 530.
Second, the drawing also shows the dzeus fasteners at 15mm from the edge of
the door. If the corner fasteners are put that close, it seems that the
rivets for the springs would be out so the door would not cover them.
Third, the OB wing instructions say to cut the hole 45 mm smaller that the
cover? Is that 45 mm all around? Seems way to much edge?
Regards,
Bill - Vermont
HDS - 6-3798
Working OB wings (lockers)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Westridge <jwk.hvlkbd(at)coastalnet.com> |
| Subject: | Customer Service |
My kind of story, Know I've got them on my suppliers list when I get to that point.
Dave Westridge
-----Original Message-----
From: Darryl West [SMTP:rdwest(at)cadvision.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 1998 12:55 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Customer Service
Fellow Listers:
Similar to Craig's experience, I was also very happy with Warp Drive's
service, price and delivery, when I purchased a prop and spinner from them
about a year ago. The product is well made and providing good performance
ever since. Their technical advice on their product is great.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Cousins <cousins(at)globalserve.net>
Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 5:15 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Customer Service
>
>While we're on the subject of Customer Service, I would like to throw in a
>couple of roses:
>
>I have yet to hear anything negative about product support from Warp Drive
>propellors and my own dealings with them have been very positive. When I
>
>So, there are good companies out there.
>
>Craig
llow builder
sharing space ended up cutting into his rear Z on his stabilizer because he
wasn't careful. I kept warning him that he was getting close but he didn't
listen, and BAM.... Cut the Z. And don't forget to round off the inside of
your corners to prevent cracking.
Steve
was already charged to my account. I was upset about
this (someone wasn't doing his job at A/C!), but here I am with the power
supply I know I would need. So, I decided to eat the extra cost and forget
it. Needless to say, I actively avoided A/C when I visited Oshkosh because I
didn't want to see if they were having a sale on their Whelen inventory. If
they did, I know I would be pissed, but I needed the power supply anyway.
So, I am willing now to give someone else my business. Go ahead and use this
letter as one of many unhappy letters about servive from A/C.
There, that felt better...
Dick (601-HDS)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cps <cps(at)tisd.net> |
| Subject: | insulating material |
What type of material do you use for cabin soundproofing. Do you glue or
use strips of velcro to secure. There has to be a better alternative
than a/c $600 kit
Chuck
408 hrs maybe done in 500
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Cotter <TJCotter(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Wing Locker Doors |
Bill,
I too noted the dimensional discrepancies on the wing locker opening
drawings. I resolved them and made my final cuts before installing the
doors. While it worked out in the end, I wish I had a little more "lip" in
a few places. My recommendation is to trace the doors on the skins and cut
a "working hole" only. After you have more or less completed the
installation you can make the final cut and be confident of the result.
Tim Cotter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca |
We sometime only complain and don't mention when things go good, so with all the
negative stuff going on about Aircraft Spruce I thought I should speak up.
I have ordered bits and pieces for the last 4+ years from them (anywhere from
$20 to about $800) and have always had good service on the phone and good
shipment times.
The people have always been courteous, have read back the part description and
the amount (sometimes things have gone up in price but nothing unreasonable) and
they have indicated if the parts were in stock.
My two cents worth.
Hugh MacKenzie
C-FXPL
Grimsby, Ontario
Canada
-----Original Message-----
From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 1998 10:58 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A /C SPRUCE
Boy, they really need some managers. I wonder if they would hire all of us as
consultants?
Dave Westridge
-----Original Message-----
From: RLucka(at)aol.com [SMTP:RLucka(at)aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 1998 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A /C SPRUCE
<<
Bravo - I thought I was alone out here with my poor experience with A/C
Spruce. Think I'll try Wicks next time.
>>
All this talk about bad experience with A/C has me wanting to check out Wicks.
An
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GEOFFHUDSN(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
Fred, here's a thought. Nicopress tools are very much used in sailboats for
the standing rigging. They come in all kinds from elementary to sophisticated.
The elementry ones do just as good a job. You might look into a sailboat
supplies store if there are any near you. Geoff.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca |
| Subject: | insulating material |
I used standard 2x4' fibreglass ceiling tiles as suggested by ZAC. I sprayed
them with fire retardant spray first and then glued them on with contact cement.
I then put carpet over the fibreglass, some places it was glued on and some
places I used Velcro, depended on what was being covered and if I though I may
need to get behind it in the future (ie. where it covered wiring etc.).
Hugh MacKenzie
C-FXPL
Grimsby, Ontario
Canada
-----Original Message-----
From: zenith-list(at)matronics.com at internet-mail
Sent: Monday, August 24, 1998 12:53 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: insulating material
What type of material do you use for cabin soundproofing. Do you glue or
use strips of velcro to secure. There has to be a better alternative
than a/c $600 kit
Chuck
408 hrs maybe done in 500
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Schemmel, Grant" <Schemmel(at)utmc.utc.com> |
Phillipe
There are some sketches of this kind of installation in the Zenair News
back issues. I can't recall off the top of my head what the guys name
was, other than he had finished the plane, added some neat features, and
lives in CA.
Grant Schemmel
Penrose, CO
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Philippe Leroy [SMTP:jpleroy(at)ssvec.org]
>Sent: Friday, August 21, 1998 11:24 AM
>To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Landing gear
>
>
>Well, I've got my fuselage close to getting up on its gear. I'm going to
>try using nutplates on the inside of the extruded gear slides (main gear)
>so that I can attach the AN3 bolts from the outside instead of the inside.
>This way, If I ever need to service the bungees, I'll just have to easily
>remove the bolts to access the bungees. Has anyone ever used such a
>technique? Someone at Oshkosh told me about this idea, but I can't
>remember for sure who it was.
>
>Also, what is the best way to attach the aluminum gear forks to the welded
>steel gear legs?
>In other words, should I drill the square steel leg first (4 corner holes),
>or the aluminum gear forks?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Philippe Leroy
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Locker Doors |
>
>Bill,
>
While it worked out in the end, I wish I had a little more "lip" in
>a few places. My recommendation is to trace the doors on the skins and cut
>a "working hole" only. After you have more or less completed the
>installation you can make the final cut and be confident of the result.
>
>Tim Cotter
>
>Hi Bill,
Tim's "trace method" works real well for the wing lockers cut outs.
This is one area where you'll find the Dremel tool with the drum sanders
real helpfull in finishing off the cut out corners.
Another note, though. You'll find in flight the wing locker covers really
want to lift off the wing at the very top of the locker near the hinge (a
very low pressure area on the wing). I moved the two upper side dzueses up
towards the hinge on my HDS wings to help counter this. I also added extra
L channels on the underside of the covers. This tiny bit of extra weight is
worth it in this area.
Cheers, Mike
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Slaughter <mslaughter(at)interhop.net> |
| Subject: | Re: insulating material |
>
>What type of material do you use for cabin soundproofing. Do you glue or
>use strips of velcro to secure. There has to be a better alternative
>than a/c $600 kit
>Chuck
>408 hrs maybe done in 500
>
>
>Heating Duct places use a fibreglass type mat for sound proofing ductwork.
The stuff is about 3/4" thick and is very light, flexible and fireproof.
Cuts easily with snips, and is easy to work with. They use a special
fireproof glue with this stuff-it's blue and comes in 40 gal drums, so take
a big glass jar with you go buy this stuff.
This is standard material at these duct places, so finding it's pretty
easy. When installed, it sits flush with the L channels, so installing
carpet over it is a breeze. Cost $30 ( that's canadian $- i think about $5
U.S at the current rates :)- to do the interior of my 601.
Cheers, Mike.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Berchenbriter <berchene(at)mindspring.com> |
If there are any builders or possible builders in Iowa, I would be
interested in their communiciations. Attended the open house in Mexico
Saturday and was a little disappointed to see only one builder 601. The 701
was quite impressive, at least if it really had a 502( or whatever the small
Rotax is) and appeared to handle a crosswind without any effort at all. The
new 601X was there and the Jabiru sounds real nice. Didn't have the 801
there. Are full sized templates included in the plans for all the curved parts?
Ed Berchenbriter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joa" <joa(at)teleport.com> |
Thanks for all the replies on the best places to buy rivets. This brings up
another question (and I suppose I should have asked it last time)... where
is the least expensive place to buy the rest of the materials (I know, big
question :)
I'm mainly interested in aluminum sheeting and clecos. What have you all
found for prices? Or maybe this is in a faq or homepage somewhere?
Thanks again!
Joa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Ferris <ferret(at)mail.forbin.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Iowa builders |
I'm from Cedar Falls Iowa Ed. Where are you from? I am building a 601HD.
To date, I have completed the tail section, and have started on the
outboard wings. I was also at the open house, but chatted with several 601
builders. Maybe we just missed each other, or attended at different times.
I was there in the afternoon until about 3:30PM.
Zenith puts most of the complicated bends and corners in the parts for you.
Typically the builder is more finishing them off. Some things like the
longerons can be bought pre-bent from the factory at a fee.
Are you building or considering building?
Greg Ferris
>
>If there are any builders or possible builders in Iowa, I would be
>interested in their communiciations. Attended the open house in Mexico
>Saturday and was a little disappointed to see only one builder 601. The 701
>was quite impressive, at least if it really had a 502( or whatever the small
>Rotax is) and appeared to handle a crosswind without any effort at all. The
>new 601X was there and the Jabiru sounds real nice. Didn't have the 801
>there. Are full sized templates included in the plans for all the curved
parts?
>Ed Berchenbriter
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis Elkins" <elkins35(at)email.msn.com> |
Would like to say, "Hello" and introduce myself as a new builder. I
attended Zenith's Hangar Day and was introduced to a lot of good people
including Nick and Sebastian Heintz. I purchased the rudder kit the same
day and took it home with me to Colorado. I would also like to know if there
is any difference in using Synthetic Chromate Primer versus Zinc Chromate
Primer. The Synthetic Chromate is readily available at the local hardware
store and a lot cheaper.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Decker <tdecker(at)spectra.net> |
Joa , For good prices and fast service try :
The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works
Charles T. Vogelsong
114 Sawmill Road
Dillsburg , PA 17019
Tel. 717-432-4589
.....Tom Decker
>
>Thanks for all the replies on the best places to buy rivets. This brings up
>another question (and I suppose I should have asked it last time)... where
>is the least expensive place to buy the rest of the materials (I know, big
>question :)
>
>I'm mainly interested in aluminum sheeting and clecos. What have you all
>found for prices? Or maybe this is in a faq or homepage somewhere?
>
>Thanks again!
>
>Joa
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jean-Pierre Deschenes <Jean-Pierre.Deschenes(at)pwc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Engenfellner Advanced Aircraft |
<3.0.5.32.19980822125921.007bae40(at)together.net> <35DFDA9B.5C99(at)total.net>
Grant Corriveau wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> That's a very interesting idea. I'll keep it in mind - maybe in the fall when
the trees
> are all decked out! That' d be a doubly good reason for a drive through the
countryside.
>
> There are also a couple of members on the list here in Montreal that might even
like to
> take the trip as well - hey Jean-Pierre? Carlos?
>
> Regards,
> Grant
>
Anytime
Jean-Pierre
PS:There was a fly-in this weekend in Sorel (Quebec), I saw a nice gear
reduction unit. 2 gears, one female (or internal), and the other was
standard, male. But the unit was a little bit heavy and still unproven,
but the concept was good.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Locker Doors |
Bill, I also noted the discrepancy in the locker dimensions, but I had the
larger doors shipped with my kit. If I remember correctly, I found 2
different dimensions in the manual. As I planned to build my own tanks,
this was not a problem. Will your tanks fit? The fastener springs can all
be aligned parallel to the opening cutout so no spring rivets are visible.
I recessed the fastener holes at 20mm on the covers. This put the head of
the fastener just inboard of the bend and with a 25mm overlap, everything
fits fine. I also was shipped a total of 10 Dzus fasteners. The factory
has since increased the number of fasteners to correct the lifting problems.
Nicholas also suggested adding stiffeners to the door. They now suggest 2
"L" angles on the door instead of one. Also note the "improved" method of
mounting the hinge, I think it's in the online drawing. The inverted piano
hinge allows better fit of the door panel to the wing skin. Hope this was
some help.
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Hulen <fhulen(at)primenet.com> |
| Subject: | insulating material |
>
>I used standard 2x4' fibreglass ceiling tiles as suggested by ZAC. I sprayed
>them with fire retardant spray.
>Hugh MacKenzie
+++++ Hugh, where can we purchase the fire retardant spray? Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing gear |
<<
There are some sketches of this kind of installation in the Zenair News
back issues. I can't recall off the top of my head what the guys name
was, other than he had finished the plane, added some neat features, and
lives in CA.
>>
The guy's name is George Pinneo, and his e-mail address is:
George.Pinneo(at)trw.com (George Pinneo)
I hope he doesn't mind my giving away his e-mail address.
Dick (601-HDS, got the landing gears al done, tested the Whelen power supply,
and tested the fuel pump (that was fun!))
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Chapman <pchapman(at)ionsys.com> |
| Subject: | Re: insulating material |
>>What type of material do you use for cabin soundproofing. Do you glue or
>>use strips of velcro to secure. There has to be a better alternative
>Heating Duct places use a fibreglass type mat for sound proofing ductwork.
>The stuff is about 3/4" thick and is very light, flexible and fireproof.
We've got some similar stuff for our 601. I'm not sure how much sound it
would deaden, but at least it will insulate the cabin a little bit, and be a
base for the fabric. With that huge thin canopy in the propwash, I'm not
sure how much quieter one could get the cabin, no matter how much the walls
are insulated.
On numerous planes going through the Ontario Flypass dealership, they've
been using a type of sheet foam that is also intended for duct insulation.
It is black, 1/2 inch thick (I think), adhesive backed on one side, and flat
on the other (i.e., the foam's bubbles don't show through). It has a firm
sponginess to it (hard to describe), and I think it would insulate sound
very well. It also produces a nice effect if fabric is glued over top of it.
I think they used it in the red and white 801 demonstrator that got shipped
to Oshkosh. the foam is probably very convenient to use. It has some sort of
fire resistant rating, but it is still plastic, so don't expect much in that
regard. I might personally keep it off the firewall, and use fibreglass mats
there.
The stuff Flypass was using is produced at WK Plastics, or WK Industries,
something like that, right in nearby Kitchener. Similar products probably
exist elsewhere.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 912 oil reservoir |
Any suggestions on how to install or attach the oil reservoir for the Rotex
912 on the CH601HDS firewall. Would like to hear from those who have
installed theirs and if any suggestions.
Jim Olson
Tarpon Springs, FL
ch601HDS, N56BJ
email: phfd400(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARRY MAYNE <bazmay(at)ozemail.com.au> |
Welcome to the circus Dennis,
As a faily new builder myself I can identify with you as a "new boy".
It must be a great help to visit the factory and talk to the people
responsible for the design of the aircraft. Down here in the cold, wintery
months in Australia we have to rely on the excellent advise that is
available through this group for most of our support. As to your question
regarding Zinc Chromate against Synthetic Chromate I don't know, however
down here Zinc Chromate is now frowned upon (for enviromental reasons) and
the chemists from the paint companies are advocating the use of Zinc
Phosphate one pack primer. This is easy to use, cheap, dries almost
immediately and is readily available at any hardware store. I guess this is
available in the States.
Although I am reasonably new I feel I can give one piece of advice to you
and that is to read well ahead of your work to avoid riveting where you may
need to place a fitting later. ( I almost got caught out on this one).
There was a question from a builder regarding insulation, have a look at the
filling material used in childrens quilts. It comes in various thicknesses,
is very, very light is fire retardant and is inexpensive. Fabric shops have
plenty of the stuff and just trim it with scissors.
The big news down under is the introduction of the long awaited
"experimental" catagory due in on the 1st October. I looked through the
legislation on the internet (all 135 pages) but there was so much
goggledegook that I will have to wait for our S.A.A.A to tell us what it all
means but it has to be better than what we have now.
Barry Mayne --rudder, stabilizer done almost done with elevator.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darryl West" <rdwest(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 912 oil reservoir |
Good question, Jim.
The plans I built my kit with are 5 years old, but kinda "skipped" the
bracket details. I created a complex bracket out of many small "L" angles
riveted together in a box-frame type structure that was flat against the
firewall (well below the "shelf" for the nose gear upper slider support). I
think I also used some 1/8"x 2" aluminum flatbar bent in a wide flat U shape
to help anchor the hoseclamps.
It had two parallel semi-vertical angle runners with the innermost edges
bent in about 30 degrees to match the curved contour of the 912's oil
reservoir, with as wide a "footprint" as possible for stability. The runners
were also angled out away from the upper end (closer on the bottom) to allow
the reservoir spout / dipstick / cap end to sit about the same elevation as
the shelf, but not attached to it at all (1" clearance, I think). Remember
to allow room for the air filter on that side.
I used two extra large hose clamps (I forget, about 7" OD?), each cut in two
and the ends bent and riveted between the bracket base and the firewall, and
also riveted to the bracket sides (make it STRONG, it is a vital component).
Drilling the Stainless hose clamps is difficult and dangerous for your
fingers (use a secure clamp!). I also glued thin cork strips on the clamps
and bracket wherever the reservoir touched to prevent chafing.
It works great, and leaves the reservoir bottom plug pretty clear for access
during oil changes. I can easily reach the cap thru a small (4" x 6"?) door
just above it in the cowling.
Darryl
-----Original Message-----
From: PHFD400(at)aol.com <PHFD400(at)aol.com>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 7:31 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 912 oil reservoir
>
>Any suggestions on how to install or attach the oil reservoir for the Rotex
>912 on the CH601HDS firewall. Would like to hear from those who have
>installed theirs and if any suggestions.
>
>Jim Olson
>Tarpon Springs, FL
>ch601HDS, N56BJ
>email: phfd400(at)aol.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jbbenson(at)airmail.net (Blake Benson) |
| Subject: | Questions, and more questions |
I'm considering the 601 HDS for my first homebuilt, but I have a few
questions that someone may be able to answer. Most of them pertain to
IFR instruments.
1. Does the 912 have a vacuum pump available for use with vacuum
gyros?
2. Is there enough depth behind the panel for mounting radios with
the small header tank, or will they go in an extended console below
the panel?
3. Has anyone tried the Vision Microsystems VM-1000 engine monitoring
system? If so, comments, opinions, etc....
4. Anyone have a preferred propeller combination they like, or a
combo, that should be avoided. Have heard good things about the Warp
Drive props.
5. I've also heard mention of a leading edge fuel tank, that mounts
inside the rib holes? Anyone care to enlighten me??
Sorry about the long message, but I would like to get more info before
I decide on an airframe..
Blake Benson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Gunn" <bernieg(at)iconz.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Swagging tools and nicopress sleeves |
Craig.
re nicopress tool, check with local dinghy and sailboat riggers,
they have them all. There are also professional aircraft riggers about,
some who specialise in microlights.
Cannot oblige your request for another story, home today from a few
weeks in Indonesia, (Bali, Lombok, Sumbawa etc) to find 433 mesages on
Email. Went round every airport looking for a plane to hire, "Anything from
a microlight to a Piper Comanche!" Not one to be had, not even an H-28
chopper.
However, took a 30ft prahu for a sail, double bamboo outriggers and a
lateen sail, knifes along at about 8 knots in a 10 knot wind. Sail made of
plastic sacks. Doubt the design has changed much in 2000 years or so. The
Balinese are experts on kites and bought a few. They have one which is a
square rigged sailing ship, except square sails are loosely rigged between
yards of fore and main mast and between main and mizzen.
Glad to hear CTAZ is flying so well, how about a story on handling and
performance figures? re: Niagara Falls, in 1913 Lincoln Beachey did a stunt
including a loop over the falls and a dive followed by a loop under the
bridge below, in a "Curtiss Headless". Care to compete?
Bernie Gunn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Fetzer" <george.f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: welcome dennis |
Barry Mayne wrote:
There was a question from a builder regarding insulation, have a look at the
filling material used in childrens quilts. It comes in various thicknesses,
is very, very light is fire retardant and is inexpensive. Fabric shops have
plenty of the stuff and just trim it with scissors.
I found this material to be a good filler behind vinyl upholstery and for
some extra padding in seat cushions also.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fothergill <mfothergill(at)interhop.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions, and more questions |
At 07:33 AM 8/25/98 GMT, you wrote:
>
>I'm considering the 601 HDS for my first homebuilt, but I have a few
>questions that someone may be able to answer. Most of them pertain to
>IFR instruments.
>
>1. Does the 912 have a vacuum pump available for use with vacuum
>gyros?
>
>2. Is there enough depth behind the panel for mounting radios with
>the small header tank, or will they go in an extended console below
>the panel?
>
>3. Has anyone tried the Vision Microsystems VM-1000 engine monitoring
>system? If so, comments, opinions, etc....
>
>4. Anyone have a preferred propeller combination they like, or a
>combo, that should be avoided. Have heard good things about the Warp
>Drive props.
>
>5. I've also heard mention of a leading edge fuel tank, that mounts
>inside the rib holes? Anyone care to enlighten me??
>
>Sorry about the long message, but I would like to get more info before
>I decide on an airframe..
>
>Blake Benson
>
>Hi Blake;
Re your questions;
1. Yes avacuum pump is an option.
2. There is room behind the panel with yhe wing tank option.>
>
>3. No comment.
>
4. I use the IVOprop in-flight adjustable. Warp drive is a good prop. I
wish they had in-flight. Am trying to find more info on Arplast props as
they have in-flight available. Hoffman as used on Katana are probably best
but expensive.
5. Zenair uses tanks in leading edge, not in the lightening holes. New
601XL has more capacity in wing tanks. No header tank is used in it.
Hope this helps.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hugh_Mackenzie_at_SOEP(at)bailey.ca |
| Subject: | insulating material |
I bought mine at Canadian Tire. Any hardware store should carry it.
Thanks, Hugh
>
>I used standard 2x4' fibreglass ceiling tiles as suggested by ZAC. I sprayed
>them with fire retardant spray.
>Hugh MacKenzie
+++++ Hugh, where can we purchase the fire retardant spray? Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ronbo135(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Locker Doors |
I had some trouble interpreting the plans as well. My wings are in storage
right now, so I can't take any measurements, but they turned out looking good.
I do remember that with the lip I had on the aft edge, the dzus fastener
receptors didn't have enough room to be riveted in the fore-aft direction.
Hence, the standard wing head dzus fasteners are 90 degrees to the wind when
fastened. Not good unless you craft a story about vortex generation and such.
I'll either use flat head dzus on the aft side or try to make or find wing-
head fasteners with a 90 degree shift from normal.
Ron
Formerly from Spokane, now LA
Always half done, as someone else said.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions, and more questions |
>5. I've also heard mention of a leading edge fuel tank, that mounts
>inside the rib holes? Anyone care to enlighten me??
Blake,
I have the LE wing tanks. They fit between the second and third nose rib
counting from the wing root. They are about 10 gallons each. I also have an
8 gallon header tank for a total fuel capacity of 28 gals.
If you use the 16 gallon header tank, there is much less room for
instruments, radios, etc.
Some builders are using only the wing tanks for a total fuel capacity of 20
gallons.
Regards,
Bill - Vermont
HDS - 6-3798
working OB wings (wing lockers)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Morelli <billvt(at)together.net> |
| Subject: | Nav / Strobes & HDS |
Has anyone mounted the Aeroflash nav/strobe combination on the HDS tips?
The flat surface on the tips droops down somewhat and it is difficult to
determine the correct angle to mount the lights.
Can I draw a line from trailing edge to leading edge, make that parallel to
the table and assume the light should be line up with that chord line?
Bill Morelli - Vermont
HDS - 6-3798
working OB wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Nav / Strobes & HDS |
Bill,
Call me at one of the numbers I gave you. I have made this installation and
can help.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Orsborn, Tom" <Tom.Orsborn(at)COMPAQ.com> |
| Subject: | Grounding of Leading Edge Fuel Tanks |
Speaking of leading edge fuel tanks, how did you (anyone) handle the
grounding?
* Did you run a grounding strap between the grounding tab on the tank
and the front spar? If so, what AN hardware did you use to fasten it?
* Did you use an automotive type grounding strap?
* Or is there an airplane equivalent?
* Or is 16 gauge (or heavier) wire with crimped fittings OK?
Tom Orsborn
Email: tom.orsborn(at)compaq.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Grounding of Leading Edge Fuel Tanks |
In a message dated 8/25/98 4:08:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
Tom.Orsborn(at)COMPAQ.com writes:
<< Or is 16 gauge (or heavier) wire with crimped fittings OK? >>
Tom,
This is what Nick Heintz told me to do. One on the tab and one on the air
frame. Does this make logical sense?
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
August 04, 1998 - August 25, 1998
Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-am