Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:43 AM - Re:alt stator connector (KahnSG@aol.com)
2. 09:44 AM - Re: Fuel Gauges (gilles.thesee)
3. 10:11 AM - Re: Re:alt stator connector (Jim Sower)
4. 10:12 AM - Alternators and batteries (Bob Kuc)
5. 10:47 AM - Re: Alternators and batteries (Bob Kuc)
6. 11:38 AM - Re: Alternators and batteries (mprather@spro.net)
7. 01:35 PM - Wiring bundle (Charles Brame)
8. 03:35 PM - Electrical failure (RSwanson)
9. 08:19 PM - Re: U2 Electrical failure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 10:43 PM - Re: Re: U2 Electrical failure (George Braly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RE:alt stator connector |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KahnSG@aol.com
The third insulated terminal on a Ford alt. is the stator connector. Ford
only used a wire there when a factory ammeter was used.
Steve
Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc.
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
----- Message d'origine -----
De : "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
Envoy : mercredi 4 dcembre 2002 00:45
Objet : AeroElectric-List: Fuel Gauges
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
<emjones@charter.net>
>
> I am contemplating the design of a non-microprocessor fuel-quantity
linearizer and need to know what volt/current the gauges (of various
manufacturers) require for a reading of Full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/1, and empty.
Does anyone use a 4-20 mA system?
>
> In my proposed system, you'd fill the fuel tank to a certain capacity and
set the meter to read right, etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Eric M. Jones
>
Eric,
What about 240/33 ohm empty to full fuel level senders, with UMA 12 V
indicators ?
Thanks,
Gilles
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE:alt stator connector |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@starband.net>
KahnSG@aol.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KahnSG@aol.com
>
> The third insulated terminal on a Ford alt. is the stator connector. Ford
> only used a wire there when a factory ammeter was used.
Wait a minute. Have I missed something here? Which Ford regulator are we
talking about? I am using the unit out of '85 - '90 models which I believe
is the solid state version of the unit that goes all the way back to the
early 70s. Where are we counting from? I understood that the two middle
terminals on the Ford regulator were to be shunted together and connected to
the field. It seemed to work really well. I've forgotten exactly how the
terminals on mine were labeled. I'll check.
Jim S.
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Alternators and batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Kuc" <bkuc1@tampabay.rr.com>
As I broaden my knowledge, other questions pop up. So here are a few that I
know someone might answer for me.
My understanding is that anything above 13 volts will charge a battery. If
an alternator spits out 'x' amount of amps at 13.8+ volts, what happens
when the battery gets fully charged, by the alternator? As an example, if I
have a 20 amp alternator, and am only using 7 amps in all circuits, I would
think that eventually the battery gets fully charged. Where does the other
13 amps go after the battery gets charged? Because it is only for a few
hours, the battery gets overcharged, and thats ok?
On the other had, is I have a 20 amp alternator spitting out 13.8 volts, and
my system uses 25 amps, the other amps are being sucked out of the battery
so the overall system will not see 13.8 volts, and thus the battery slowly
drains?
This all leads to what size alternator I should get. Once I determine all
my requirements and add up the amp usage, how much over should I allow.
Again, I assume that anything above usage gets stored in the battery.
Bob
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Alternators and batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Kuc" <bkuc1@tampabay.rr.com>
Never mind. After send this e-mail, I figured that Bob's book would explain
it. Sure enough, I walked right up to Bob's book and found the answer. I
was miising the "regulator" and what it's purpose was.
Bob
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Alternators and batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mprather@spro.net
There is a range of voltage for which the battery will take
a charge. Higher means faster, lower means slower. The
regulator should be set to a voltage where the battery takes
on a reasonable charge, but isn't getting boiled. Once the
battery is fully charged, if the charging system continued
to produce the same amount of current, the voltage would rise.
Instead of this happening, the regulator senses this increase
in voltage, and reduces the output current of the alternator
by lowering the field current. This stabilizes the bus voltage
and keeps everything happy.
Your conclusion about what happens when the demands on the
system are greater than what the alternator can supply are
correct. The battery takes up the slack until the demand is
reduced, or the battery is dead.
The way to size the alternator is to make a list of all of the
components in the airplane that use power, find the current/
wattage used by each device and total it up. This is your max
current requirement. When choosing an alternator, you can sort
of ignore the momentary consumers of power, like the starter,
and maybe gear and flap motors. Because they are used infrequently,
they use a small amount of the total energy required for an average
flight.
However, the momentary consumers should be taken into account
when selecting the battery system. You need a battery big
enough (enough cranking amps) to spin the starter adequately
for several start attempts, and maybe to get the flaps down
during preflight. You also don't want the bus voltage to dip
too low when you lower the flaps when (if) you have the landing/
nav/strobe lights on.
The other thing to take into account on battery size is what
your minimum energy requirements are in order to complete a
flight (with full fuel) should you have a charging system
failure early in a flight. This will determine how man Ah
(Amp-hours) the battery needs. If you haul 5 hours of fuel,
and your continues current requirement is 10A, you would need
a 50Ah (plus a little) battery to complete the flight.
I'm not sure operationally whether I would continue a long
night cross country after a charging system failure if I had
any convenient options available for a place to land. However,
this is a good way to select the components, and knowing that
the power was there would be comforting for normal flights and
certainly a safety factor when the chips are down.
Do you have Bob Nuckolls' book?
Regards,
Matt Prather
N34RD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Kuc" <bkuc1@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternators and batteries
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Kuc"
> <bkuc1@tampabay.rr.com>
> As I broaden my knowledge, other questions pop up. So here are a
> few that I
> know someone might answer for me.
>
> My understanding is that anything above 13 volts will charge a
> battery. If
> an alternator spits out 'x' amount of amps at 13.8+ volts, what
> happenswhen the battery gets fully charged, by the alternator? As
> an example, if I
> have a 20 amp alternator, and am only using 7 amps in all circuits,
> I would
> think that eventually the battery gets fully charged. Where does
> the other
> 13 amps go after the battery gets charged? Because it is only for
> a few
> hours, the battery gets overcharged, and thats ok?
>
>
> On the other had, is I have a 20 amp alternator spitting out 13.8
> volts, and
> my system uses 25 amps, the other amps are being sucked out of the
> batteryso the overall system will not see 13.8 volts, and thus the
> battery slowly
> drains?
>
> This all leads to what size alternator I should get. Once I
> determine all
> my requirements and add up the amp usage, how much over should I
> allow.Again, I assume that anything above usage gets stored in the
> battery.
>
> Bob
>
>
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Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame <charleyb@earthlink.net>
In order to save on firewall piercings, I would like to bundle several
wires from the engine compartment to pass through the firewall. Is there
any problem (considering noise, interference, etc.) bundling the
following wires together?
Mag (shielded cable)
Electric Ign. power wire
Oil Pressure switch line
GPS Antenna Cable
Main Alternator feed
Standby alternator feed
I am also considering bundling the Main and Standby Alternator leads
together and/or bundling them with the above listed wires.
Any comments, pro or con?
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB (Res.)
San Antonio
Message 8
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| Subject: | Electrical failure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RSwanson <rswan19@comcast.net>
I thought some of you might be interested in reading this;
total electrical failure of a U-2:
http://www.aero-news.net/news/military.cfm?ContentBlockID=6793
R
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: U2 Electrical failure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:32 PM 12/4/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RSwanson <rswan19@comcast.net>
>
>I thought some of you might be interested in reading this;
>total electrical failure of a U-2:
>http://www.aero-news.net/news/military.cfm?ContentBlockID=6793
>R
Interesting reading but typical of most stories
of this genre . . . it doesn't give us any details
of what happened, why it happened and what they
propose to do to keep it from happening again.
Given the missions and payloads this bird has flown
for the last 40+ years, I'm very surprised that
a system with this opportunity for maturity
can still come so close to wiping out aircraft
and crew.
Of course, we only have the reporters
interpretation of the story to go on . . . but
I am mystified by the description of systems dropping
off line one-by-one like leaves off a tree. I can
imagine only one failure mode that would produce
that behavior.
I think perhaps the engine driven power
source(s) went down unannounced. The ship
was flying battery only and as the voltage sagged
below minimum levels for each system's operability.
the affected system would drop off line. This means
that by the time the first system malfunctioned, the
battery was already mostly used up so it's perhaps
not surprising that when the battery switch was
turned on for the approach to landing, there was
nothing left.
Hmmm . . . the U2 was designed about 1955, do you
suppose it was done by guys who graduated from the same
school as those who designed the CePiMoBecraft
class of airplane? The technology was available to
put active notification of low voltage in the
first airplanes to get generators.
I designed a low-voltage warning module for somebody
while working at ElectroMech about 1978. I don't remember
who asked for it, I think it was Beech. I don't recall
that it went into volume production production so we
missed another opportunity to get the "magic light"
into certified ships. Maybe I should send those
U2 mechanics a copy of chapter 17.
As folks read these kinds of stories,
it's difficult avoid identifying with the crew's
harrowing experience and allowing resulting
emotions to drive design decisions on our little
airplanes in ill-conceived ways.
Found a few interesting links on this airplane.
http://www.bubbasoft.com/military/U2.htm
http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Projects/ColdWar/Arms/u2.html
http://www.aviation-central.com/1946-1970/afka0.htm
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: U2 Electrical failure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: George Braly <gwbraly@gami.com>
Bob,
One time about 1979 I was flying a Seneca IFR - - winter over the Rockies
going into Idaho from Tulsa.
Full stack of then SOTA King digital equipment.
Cabin heater quit.
About 20 minutes later, the King radio displays started to shut down - - -
one at a time.
Until all of the nice bright little orange digits had just ... poof!
Disappeared.
I dispatched a guy in the back to crawl over into the baggage area and find
the re-set button for the cabin heater.
Got the heat back.
About 20 minutes later, all of the SOTA King digital stack came back to
life.... in the reverse order.
A while later, the cabin heater quit again. Guess what ? <g>
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls@cox.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: U2 Electrical failure
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:32 PM 12/4/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RSwanson <rswan19@comcast.net>
>
>I thought some of you might be interested in reading this;
>total electrical failure of a U-2:
>http://www.aero-news.net/news/military.cfm?ContentBlockID=6793
>R
Interesting reading but typical of most stories
of this genre . . . it doesn't give us any details
of what happened, why it happened and what they
propose to do to keep it from happening again.
Given the missions and payloads this bird has flown
for the last 40+ years, I'm very surprised that
a system with this opportunity for maturity
can still come so close to wiping out aircraft
and crew.
Of course, we only have the reporters
interpretation of the story to go on . . . but
I am mystified by the description of systems dropping
off line one-by-one like leaves off a tree. I can
imagine only one failure mode that would produce
that behavior.
I think perhaps the engine driven power
source(s) went down unannounced. The ship
was flying battery only and as the voltage sagged
below minimum levels for each system's operability.
the affected system would drop off line. This means
that by the time the first system malfunctioned, the
battery was already mostly used up so it's perhaps
not surprising that when the battery switch was
turned on for the approach to landing, there was
nothing left.
Hmmm . . . the U2 was designed about 1955, do you
suppose it was done by guys who graduated from the same
school as those who designed the CePiMoBecraft
class of airplane? The technology was available to
put active notification of low voltage in the
first airplanes to get generators.
I designed a low-voltage warning module for somebody
while working at ElectroMech about 1978. I don't remember
who asked for it, I think it was Beech. I don't recall
that it went into volume production production so we
missed another opportunity to get the "magic light"
into certified ships. Maybe I should send those
U2 mechanics a copy of chapter 17.
As folks read these kinds of stories,
it's difficult avoid identifying with the crew's
harrowing experience and allowing resulting
emotions to drive design decisions on our little
airplanes in ill-conceived ways.
Found a few interesting links on this airplane.
http://www.bubbasoft.com/military/U2.htm
http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Projects/ColdWar/Arms/u2.html
http://www.aviation-central.com/1946-1970/afka0.htm
Bob . . .
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