---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/17/02: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:40 AM - Re: Mag wiring (Robert Dickson) 2. 07:38 AM - Ignition Timing (MATTHEW PRATHER) 3. 08:11 AM - firewall pass through (Robert Dickson) 4. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: 10157 Jones (N823ms@aol.com) 5. 01:22 PM - strange pins (Jerzy Krasinski) 6. 02:01 PM - Re: strange pins (MATTHEW PRATHER) 7. 02:47 PM - Re: Voltage Regulator .... (Jim Sower) 8. 04:09 PM - Re: Voltage Regulator .... (Sam Buchanan) 9. 04:10 PM - Re: firewall pass through (Jon Croke) 10. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: 10157 Jones (Paul McAllister) 11. 05:09 PM - Re: strange pins (Charlie and Tupper England) 12. 05:30 PM - Re: firewall pass through (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 06:14 PM - Re: crimping solid conductors no-no? (David Swartzendruber) 14. 06:35 PM - Re: firewall pass through (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 08:25 PM - Re: firewall pass through (Jon Croke) 16. 10:17 PM - Re: firewall pass through (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 11:46 PM - Re: firewall pass through grommet covers (Jim Jewell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mag wiring From: "Robert Dickson" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert Dickson" Bill thanks for responding. I suspect the fiber piece, which looks to be pretty sturdy, is there to protect the plastic that's at the base of the stud. And you're right, there's a screw about an inch outside of the P lead stud. Robert Dickson RV-6A electrical ---------- >From: Bill Irvine >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mag wiring >Date: Mon, Dec 16, 2002, 11:19 PM > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Irvine > > >> From: "Robert Dickson" >> I'm a little confused about how to properly wire my >> slick mags... > > I just finished installing two Slicks on a customer's > C-182, so maybe I can help. > >> I assume the p lead terminal goes between the >> splined lock washer and >> the fiber washer. Right? > > The mags I installed didn't have a fiber washer. The > only purpose I can see for this washer is to act as an > insulator in case the terminal gets bent down against > the mag case. I would question the ability of the > fiber washer to withstand the torque of the nut > without crushing. However, if you determine that the > washer is up to the task, then yes, install the > terminal between the fiber washer and lock washer. > >> Also, why is this stud flat on one side? > > To prevent the stud from turning when you tighten the > nut. > >> Does the mag case work as engine ground? > > Yes. > >> and is there a specific screw I'm supposed to use > for >> this ground? > > There should be a threaded hole in the mag case very > close to the stud. Connect the shield to this hole > with a screw (should have been included in the mag > installation kit.) > >> Or, do I run it to the firewall ground block? > > No. > >> Ignorance sure ain't bliss. > > That's what we're here for. As the Beatles once said, > "I get by with a little help from my friends." > > Bill > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:28 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ignition Timing From: "MATTHEW PRATHER" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "MATTHEW PRATHER" I am getting my O-200 powered, newly electrified Varieze running again. I have replaced one of the Bendix mags with an LSE CDI ignition system. The directions for it say to time it with an inductive pickup timing light. That works great, and it made me wonder whether I could use the same method on the mag. Not surprisingly, when I clipped the inductive pickup onto the sheilded aircraft lead, the light didn't work. So, my question is, would it be easier to splice in a little section of unshieled wire into one of the plug leads, and then use my pickup on that section, or can (should) I build a little buzz-box? It seems like all I need to make one of those is a light bulb and a battery (though that won't produce a buzz). When the points are closed, it should complet a circuit, making the bulb light, and when they open, the light should go out. Is that right? Thanks for ideas. Regards, Matt Prather N34RD ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:05 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: firewall pass through From: "Robert Dickson" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert Dickson" I'm installing a Grand Rapids EIS that will take the place of all the "normal" guages. This instrument has two bundles of wires that go firewall forward. Is there any problem with stuffing these bundles through only two holes in the firewall? They'll be pretty thick, but I've got grommets that will hold them. All the egt/cht wires will go through one hole and all the other sensor wires plus p leads plus electric primer lead will go through the other. It looks like I can route all these wires to the top center of the engine mount, then aft through the firewall and direct to the EIS. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. Robert Dickson RV-6A electrical ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:20 AM PST US From: N823ms@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 10157 Jones --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com In a message dated 12/16/2002 11:32:32 PM Central Standard Time, bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes: > > >I'm planning out my panel now and it includes the basic 6 pack. The > >exception is what to do about the DG & AI. Whether to replace with > >the Dynon or not. The cost of the electric DG & AI versus the > >suction is really steering me away from the "old fashioned" electric > >gyros. Either way, Dynon or the standard 6 pack, I would choose to > >have the T&B, VSI and good old fashioned compass for backup. > > > >The only reason that I have been able to justify to myself to use > >the Dynon type EFIS's is that it just seems cool! I would still > >have to have the same backup instruments to feel comfortable in IFR. > > I am building a Lancair ES. I intend to have an all electric system, Z-14. I have looked at BMA, and Dynon. Dynon is the one I will go with simply because it fits in a standard 3 1/8 hole. So I will adjust my six pack accordingly so that when the Dynon is available, I'll just slip it in. You have to account for the face plate. At that time I will slide the DG/AI ever to the copilots side as steam gauge electric backup. Its a little more money, however, its a great piece of mind, and less hassle to rip out a vacuum system or repair down the road. Regards, Ed Silvanic N823MS ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:01 PM PST US From: Jerzy Krasinski Subject: AeroElectric-List: strange pins --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski Bob, I got Michel MX385 radio, which is a direct replacement for Cessna ARC RT385A. I have pinouts of the connectors. I found that in addition to the standard inputs and outputs, there are three extra pins there that I have not seen before. These are: pin 1 Phn sidetone in pin 14 Phn sidetone out pin 19 Sidetone out I called TKN/Michel and talked to an engineer there, but probably I got a wrong engineer, he had no idea what these pins were for. By any chance do you know what these are? I could probably leave these pins alone, but I am driven by curiosity. Thank you, Jerzy ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:01:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: strange pins From: "MATTHEW PRATHER" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "MATTHEW PRATHER" Just guessing, but those sound like optional intercom pins like the Microair radios have. Matt Prather N34RD > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski > > > Bob, > > I got Michel MX385 radio, which is a direct replacement for Cessna ARC > RT385A. I have pinouts of the connectors. I found that in addition to > the standard inputs and outputs, there are three extra pins there that > I have not seen before. > These are: > pin 1 Phn sidetone in > pin 14 Phn sidetone out > pin 19 Sidetone out > > I called TKN/Michel and talked to an engineer there, but probably I got > a wrong engineer, he had no idea what these pins were for. > By any chance do you know what these are? I could probably leave these > pins alone, but I am driven by curiosity. > > Thank you, > > Jerzy > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:23 PM PST US From: Jim Sower Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage Regulator .... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > > >I have the link to that website Bob discussed that has all those > >$5 regulators. All I could find was part numbers and prices. > >No application information at all. How do we order from those > >folks without application information? > Don't understand . . . you want a list of cars that use > these regulators? I think you can take the list I linked > into any parts store and they can supply one of the numbers > listed or cross one or more numbers listed to a brand > they stock. OK. I'd never heard of them and I went to a parts house and they hadn't either so I quit looking. I'll go to NAPA and some other serious vendors and look for a cross reference. > > > This regulator was generic to Ford products from > 1965 to 1992. > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:06 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage Regulator .... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan All ya gotta do is walk into the nearest Advance Auto Parts or Autozone and say, "Gimme a regulator for my 1975 Ford LTD". No need to order nuthin'... :-) A regulator is a regulator is a regulator....... Sam Buchanan (RV-6 with 440 hrs on $9.00 Ford regulator) "The RV Journal" http://thervjournal.com =============================== Jim Sower wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower > > "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > > > > > > >I have the link to that website Bob discussed that has all those > > >$5 regulators. All I could find was part numbers and prices. > > >No application information at all. How do we order from those > > >folks without application information? > > Don't understand . . . you want a list of cars that use > > these regulators? I think you can take the list I linked > > into any parts store and they can supply one of the numbers > > listed or cross one or more numbers listed to a brand > > they stock. > > OK. I'd never heard of them and I went to a parts house and they hadn't either so I quit > looking. I'll go to NAPA and some other serious vendors and look for a cross reference. > > > > > > > This regulator was generic to Ford products from > > 1965 to 1992. > > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:31 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: firewall pass through --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" I would also like to ADD to this question: is a rubber grommet all that is required in the firewall.?? Is some additional 'plugging' of the hole required to keep air/gasses from passing thru this opening?? I am concerned about not giving the DAR something to complain about... Im looking for what standard practices desire... !! Thanks in advance Jon > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert Dickson" > > I'm installing a Grand Rapids EIS that will take the place of all the > "normal" guages. This instrument has two bundles of wires that go firewall > forward. Is there any problem with stuffing these bundles through only two > holes in the firewall? They'll be pretty thick, but I've got grommets that > will hold them. > All the egt/cht wires will go through one hole and all the other sensor > wires plus p leads plus electric primer lead will go through the other. > It looks like I can route all these wires to the top center of the engine > mount, then aft through the firewall and direct to the EIS. > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts. > > Robert Dickson > RV-6A electrical > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:53 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 10157 Jones --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi, I'd like to just add my two cents worth. Bob has put together a well reasoned case for electric a/h & dg's. I too struggled with the cost of these devices and while I agree with the total cost of ownership argument I took a different approach. I have installed a vacuum system along with a pressure switch to alert me when (not if) the pump fails. In addition I have a Naviad wing leveler. The reasoning is that I will know immediately when the pump fails and I will be able to maintain a wings level situation if I am in IMC conditions using the Navaid. I too look longingly at devices being offered by Dyon and Blue Mountain and I am hoping by the time my vacuum based devices have failed that these newer technologies will be ready for prime time and I will be able to replace my 50 year old technology with one of these offerings. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 10157 Jones > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > Bob, I posted this on the RV-7 Yahoo group list in response to a > > discussion that was taking place about electric gyros. I didn't get my > > question answered so I'll try you. What I'm really trying to find out is > > why would I spend the extra $1,500 dollars for an electric version of > > gyros and also what the failure rate is for the electric gyros. Thanks > > for you book. Very useful for me a first time builder. Doug > > > >Group: > >Please help me to understand some things about electric gyros. > >I've been all over the board on what I want to do. Everything from > >put the suction pump in to looking at the EFIS lite or the Dynon > >EFIS. > > > >I am assuming that in this discussion we are not talking about > >solid state gyros, but instead something like an electric RC Allen > >artificial horizon. How do they work? With suction pump the > >suction turns vanes and spins up the gyros. What causes the > >electric gyros to spin up? An electric motor in each gyroscopic > >instrument? > > Yes . . . > > > > What is the failure rate of the electric motor versus > >the suction pump? > > I don't have hard numbers from any formal studies. Further, > there is more to consider than pump of failures. The > general consensus is that overall reliability of all-electric > gyros is more reliable than vacuum because you don't have a > single failure (pump) that takes down both gyros. Further, > cost of system ownership is lower in the long run because > you're not dragging filtered but still microscopically > contaminated air through the gyros which accelerates their > overhaul cycles. > > > When a suction pump goes, there is typically an > >indication that the pump is getting weak by reduced suction gauge > >readings over time. (Flame suit on, I'm sure that some have > >experienced catastrophic pump failures.) > > They generally do not fail gracefully. The pump > performance is pretty good until one vane fails. > The debris then takes the rest of the vanes out. > It's all over an a few milliseconds. > > > Is there an indication of > >electric gyros degrading? > > They too have gross failure modes that will cause > a gyro not to spin up . . . or to precess badly. But > one gyro going belly up doesn't take the other one > with it. > > > Future maintenance expense? Replace > >suction pump (which you can do yourself) versus overhauling the > >electric gyros by an avionics shop? > > Over the lifetime of the airplane, cost of ownership > for the electric gyros should be lower. You get the > further benefits of having two engine driven power > sources which adds robustness not only to the gyro > system but to other electrically driven essentials > as well. Your airplane is easier to build, work on > and should be 4-5 pounds lighter as for having left > out the vacuum plumbing. > > >I'm planning out my panel now and it includes the basic 6 pack. The > >exception is what to do about the DG & AI. Whether to replace with > >the Dynon or not. The cost of the electric DG & AI versus the > >suction is really steering me away from the "old fashioned" electric > >gyros. Either way, Dynon or the standard 6 pack, I would choose to > >have the T&B, VSI and good old fashioned compass for backup. > > > >The only reason that I have been able to justify to myself to use > >the Dynon type EFIS's is that it just seems cool! I would still > >have to have the same backup instruments to feel comfortable in IFR. > > that would really blow the budget would it not? > > >I can't seem to get buying the electric gyros. (I consider myself > >conservative, my wife says cheap). From Aircraft Spruce for RC > >Allen instruments, Electric DG 1850, Electric AI 1750 total cost > >$3,600. Vac DG 689, Vac AI 728 & vac pump 685 for a total cost of > >$2,100. > > > >Honestly, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, I'm just trying > >to understand why I should spend $1,500 dollars more for the same > >function. > > You pay it up front or pay more later . . . and if you don't > have the benefit of a second alternator in the vacated vacuum > pump pad, then you miss the opportunity to craft one of the > most reliable electrical systems flying in any light aircraft. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:37 PM PST US From: Charlie and Tupper England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: strange pins --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie and Tupper England >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski >> >> >>Bob, >> >>I got Michel MX385 radio, which is a direct replacement for Cessna ARC >>RT385A. I have pinouts of the connectors. I found that in addition to >>the standard inputs and outputs, there are three extra pins there that >>I have not seen before. >>These are: >>pin 1 Phn sidetone in >>pin 14 Phn sidetone out >>pin 19 Sidetone out >> >>I called TKN/Michel and talked to an engineer there, but probably I got >>a wrong engineer, he had no idea what these pins were for. >>By any chance do you know what these are? I could probably leave these >>pins alone, but I am driven by curiosity. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Jerzy >> >> Sidetone is the sound of your own voice in the headphones when you talk during transmit. This is an optional feature on most radios. In my limited experience with a/c radios, two pins are usually tied together to activate the feature. This is purely a guess, but I would bet that pin 14 is headphone level audio out & should be tied to pin 1 so that you hear your voice in the headphones when you transmit. Perhaps pin 19 is speaker level sidetone audio. (hard to imagine a use for it, though) Charlie ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:28 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: firewall pass through --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:09 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert Dickson" > > >I'm installing a Grand Rapids EIS that will take the place of all the >"normal" guages. This instrument has two bundles of wires that go firewall >forward. Is there any problem with stuffing these bundles through only two >holes in the firewall? They'll be pretty thick, but I've got grommets that >will hold them. Don't see any reason why not . . . >All the egt/cht wires will go through one hole and all the other sensor >wires plus p leads plus electric primer lead will go through the other. >It looks like I can route all these wires to the top center of the engine >mount, then aft through the firewall and direct to the EIS. > >Thanks in advance for your thoughts. Sounds good to me. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:43 PM PST US From: "David Swartzendruber" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: crimping solid conductors no-no? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" Sounds like it can be done in an acceptable manner. I've seen some that weren't. I guess anything can be screwed up though. You're right about the amazing things you see under a microscope. It's kind of scary to see what your fingers actually look like. It'll make you stay away from finger food for awhile. David Swartzendruber Wichita do not archive > > Took a couple of red PIDG terminals and crimped onto both > a 1N5400 single strand solid and a 1N4005 doubled up solid > wire. Sectioned terminals through the wire grip and polished > as best I could with ruby hone. Took a peek under the microscope > and both crimps were as gas-tight as I could see. It's amazing how > something that looks mirror bright to the naked eye can still > be a moonscape of scratches with the finest grit metal removal > tool I have in the shop! > > Bob . . . > > >My preference would be to use a non-insulated terminal and soldering it to > >the lead of the diode, then cover the whole thing, except for the ring ends > >of the terminals, with heat shrink tubing. I'm not convinced that crimping > >onto the solid lead results in everything becoming solid inside. Perhaps > >some of the space is still air. > > > >David Swartzendruber > >Wichita > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: firewall pass through --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:22 PM 12/17/2002 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" > > >I would also like to ADD to this question: is a rubber grommet all that is >required in the firewall.?? Is some additional 'plugging' of the hole >required to keep air/gasses from passing thru this opening?? I am concerned >about not giving the DAR something to complain about... Im looking for what >standard practices desire... !! > >Thanks in advance Don't your kit instructions speak to this? Here's a Tony B article stolen from Sport Aviation http://216.55.140.222/temp/Grommet_Shields.pdf After the wiring is all in place and shields screwed down, a molding of fire-putty around the wire on the firewall side finishes off the installation. This has been the stone-simple technique used on type certificated aircraft for a LONG time . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:27 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: firewall pass through --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" Bob. . . , Thank you! Thats what I was looking for! (article) And no, unfortunately my kit manual doesnt go into that detail.... I owe you one!! Jon www.joncroke.com do not archive ----- > > Don't your kit instructions speak to this? Here's a > Tony B article stolen from Sport Aviation > > http://216.55.140.222/temp/Grommet_Shields.pdf > > After the wiring is all in place and shields > screwed down, a molding of fire-putty around > the wire on the firewall side finishes off the > installation. This has been the stone-simple > technique used on type certificated aircraft > for a LONG time . . . > > Bob . . . > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:03 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: firewall pass through --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:38 PM 12/17/2002 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" > > >Bob. . . , > >Thank you! Thats what I was looking for! (article) >And no, unfortunately my kit manual doesnt go into that detail.... >I owe you one!! It's kinda frustrating that the guys who put out these REALLY nice kits don't go into details like this. It's not difficult and it can only advance the state of the art and confidence levels of their builders. Bob. . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:56 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: firewall pass through grommet covers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Will this work for you? I used some dies that I made on a lathe to make the standard style grommet covers out of some annealed stainless steel sheet material. I used my 5 inch bench vise as a press and produced very nice covers. I then went through my junk drawer and found some quite large washers and used them to accomplish the same results. holding the various pieces while tightening the vise was awkward but it worked well enough. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: firewall pass through > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 10:38 PM 12/17/2002 -0600, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" > > > > > >Bob. . . , > > > >Thank you! Thats what I was looking for! (article) > >And no, unfortunately my kit manual doesnt go into that detail.... > >I owe you one!! > > It's kinda frustrating that the guys who put out these > REALLY nice kits don't go into details like this. It's > not difficult and it can only advance the state of the art > and confidence levels of their builders. > > Bob. . . > >