Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:40 AM - Firewall stuff (Fergus Kyle)
2. 04:42 AM - Rotax 912S Voltage Reg Wiring, (Shay King)
3. 05:35 AM - Re: Firewall stuff (BobsV35B@aol.com)
4. 05:57 AM - vacuum source (Gary Casey)
5. 06:31 AM - Re: Rotax 912S Voltage Reg Wiring, (gilles.thesee)
6. 07:04 AM - 3M Firestop (Fergus Kyle)
7. 07:21 AM - 'Essential' bus (Fergus Kyle)
8. 07:30 AM - LED tail light (Eric M. Jones)
9. 07:54 AM - Re: citabria triiong overvoltage relay (Joe and Carole Tuminello)
10. 09:08 AM - Re: citabria triiong overvoltage relay (Stephen Johnson)
11. 09:24 AM - Re: 'Essential' bus (lm4@juno.com)
12. 01:45 PM - Re: 3M Firestop (Bill Hibbing)
13. 03:25 PM - Re: 3M Firestop (N823ms@aol.com)
14. 09:36 PM - Re: 'Essential' bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
"Stainless steel shields for wire and cable firewall penetrations are
> readily available (and easy to make) but who sells the asbestos washers
> and "fire putty" used with them. That "system" is probably
> significantly safer than the "plastic grommets and high temperature
> RTV" combination used by many builders but the parts are hard to find.
> Jack H.
Try the following page and search for "fire stop."
http://www.mcmaster.com/
.......and perhaps "Fastening and Sealing" then "Adhesives, Sealants and
Caulk". I couldn't find FireStop, but it's a start - page 3137.
Ferg
Europa A064
Message 2
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| Subject: | Rotax 912S Voltage Reg Wiring, |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shay King" <shaking@eircom.net>
Dear List,
I have 2 questions regarding the wiring of the 912s voltage reg:
1/ Has anyone else found that the barrel on the push on connectors supplied
with the voltage reg. are a bit too small for the 2.5mm/10AWG wire thats specified
in the installation manual?
2/ The "L" position on the reg. supplies a 3watt charging light. Does this
light illuminate when the reg. is charging or does it go out when the reg is charging?
Any help or other advice about wiring up this thing greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Shay King. Zenith 701/ Rotax 912S
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall stuff |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 12/21/02 6:41:02 AM Central Standard Time, VE3LVO@rac.ca
writes:
> Try the following page and search for "fire stop."
> http://www.mcmaster.com/
>
> .......and perhaps "Fastening and Sealing" then "Adhesives, Sealants and
> Caulk". I couldn't find FireStop, but it's a start - page 3137.
> Ferg
> Europa A064
>
Good Morning Ferg,
Try typing "Fire Stop" in the space allowed for searching the catalog.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
There were lots of questions on and off the list - let me answer a few:
1. How does it work? It is basically a pressure regulator with 2 inlets
and 2 outlets besides 2 lines to the instruments. The inlets are
atmospheric and compressor discharge pressures. The outlets are to
atmospheric and intake manifold pressures. The system always picks the 2
lowest pressures to use to generate instrument differential pressure. If
there is enough manifold vacuum, atmospheric pressure is used as the
upstream pressure and manifold pressure for the downstream side. In the
cruise mode running under boost the upstream side uses compressor discharge
pressure and the downstream atmospheric pressure. In other conditions
compressor discharge and manifold pressure could both be selected. In no
event is the instruments subjected to more than 5 inches above atmospheric
or less than 5 inches below atmospheric pressure. You can see that the
instruments are sometimes running under pressure and sometimes under vacuum.
2. What are the failure modes? If the engine is running with the throttle
wide open, but without boost there may not be enough differential pressure.
With the engine running, though, the turbo will always be producing
something. Also, this mode could only happen at very low engine speed, not
possible under normal conditions. If the engine quits, but is still
windmilling there will be no boost and the throttle would have to be closed
to generate enough manifold vacuum to run the instruments. If the engine
seizes there is nothing that can be done. If a boost hose comes off,
whether to the regulator or from the turbo to the engine, the system reverts
to the same condition as a Precise Flight backup system - you have to close
the throttle enough to get vacuum. The same thing would be required if the
exhaust pipe between the engine and turbo broke. The worst case scenario
would be if the engine seized while in IMC and in that case the electric
gyros would have to be used.
3. Since there could be traces of oil in the compressor discharge the inlet
filter must be relied on to remove the contamination, so I'm assuming this
filter would have to be replaced more often than for a normal vacuum system.
The instrument vacuum gage would work normally, as would a low vacuum
warning light.
I am attaching a copy of the text and a drawing from the patent as a Word
document, but I am not enough of a computer expert to know how to make the
attachment get there. Anyone that wants one can also contact me off-list.
Gary Casey
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912S Voltage Reg Wiring, |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
----- Message d'origine -----
De : "Shay King" <shaking@eircom.net>
: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
Envoy : samedi 21 dcembre 2002 13:42
Objet : AeroElectric-List: Rotax 912S Voltage Reg Wiring,
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shay King" <shaking@eircom.net>
>
> Dear List,
> I have 2 questions regarding the wiring of the 912s voltage reg:
>
> 1/ Has anyone else found that the barrel on the push on connectors
supplied with the voltage reg. are a bit too small for the 2.5mm/10AWG wire
thats specified in the installation manual?
>
2.5mm is between 14AWG and 12AWG. Hence 12AWG is amply sufficient.
> 2/ The "L" position on the reg. supplies a 3watt charging light. Does
this light illuminate when the reg. is charging or does it go out when the
reg is charging?
>
The light goes on when the voltage is below a fixed value. To date I have
been unable to perform a measurement for this actual value.
Cheers,
Gilles
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
"The 3M fire barrier caulk (the red stuff) is available at most Home Depot
stores in the electrical dept for about $10.00 a tube. This may or may not
be what you are looking for but it is the same stuff that's sold by aircraft
supply houses for about $25 a tube. You have to look really close to find
the stuff as the stores I've visited had it hidden pretty well.Bill
(Skybolt)"
Bill:
Can you spec the exact product? Here, Home Deepot have
everything but. I would like to order the exact copy, as there is lots of
"just-as-good" material on the shelves to flog.
Ferg
Europa A064
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Bob,
Compliments of the Season.
In the topic of E-bus, allow me an opinion. Keep 'Essential'. I
know the temptation to call something by its functional purpose, but that
undoes all my 'mediaeval' training and experience.
The management of my former airline (easy, now) raised hell when
pilots trained in the 'old ways' called the "Thrust Levers" - throttles! My
God, don't these people understand? Things are different now! Of course this
was at the behest of Boeing - who have the temerity to think they are the
inventors of flight. The fact that the "thrust levers" sat on the "throttle
stand" didn't even phase these words-smiths. So one old geezer (who flew
like a bird) failed and went back to the last aircraft to eke out his
existence. What a waste.
The airline used to serve a small container called, "for your
salad".
Not what it is, but what it's for. I wonder what they would call toilet
paper?
As a lifetime birdman, I figure it's what fellow pilots call it,
not what some upwardly-mobile scrambler dubs it. So it's "throttle" for the
Go-lever, and "essential" for what's needed. Endurance is for law students.
Just my $.02..........
Ferg Europa A064
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Thanks for your replies.
The Ledtronics (and others) do not satisfy the FAA requirements regarding luminosity,
angle, or color.
The one I am prototyping has 40 SMD LEDs in the correct geometry, a voltage regulator
and all the right stuff. The parts and PCB cost about $50. Assembled it
would cost $120. No housing or bayonet connector...you'd have to invent your
own.
Rob Housman reports that Whelan charges $428.95 for their LED tail light. (Actually
not an unreasonable price.)
As a kit I would still have to charge $100 shipping included. Is this reasonable?
You must have some skill in small surface mount electronic assembly, and probably
a stereo microscope. It has 40 SMD LEDs, 20 1210-size resistors, a 317
voltage regulator chip, a few more SMD caps and resistors, and a few minor odds
and ends all on a 1.25" X 1.90" PCB. This may be hard for some, but I would
guarantee that a person with reasonable soldering skill will have no problem.
Interested? Contact me off line. I will build the first of these after Xmas.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: citabria triiong overvoltage relay |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe and Carole Tuminello <mouseysf@pacbell.net>
My mechanic said it is a solid state regulator and that if it was that it
would simply go all together not act intermitent. I put the new battery in
and it still did it, but less frequently. Does that make sense about solid
state regulators? I'm pretty frustrated. Looks like all I have left to
replace now is the regulator and it will all be new.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: citabria triiong overvoltage relay
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 07:45 AM 12/10/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe and Carole Tuminello
> ><mouseysf@pacbell.net>
> >
> >Matt,
> >Thanks the old battery is fine. It reads the full voltage static, I think
> >12.8 volts. Somebody else having a similar problem says it is most likely
> >the old over voltage relay causing nuisance trips. We shall see.
> >Thank you
> >Joe
> >----- Original Message -----
> > > >>by wx30. The ampmeter jumps up and overvolts cuttign off the
alternator.
> > > >>Resest it and it does it again and again. I have a new alternator,
> > > >>only 3 years old. The battery is 3 years old also and has plenty of
> > > >>cranking power. Someone is trying to convince me the battery has a
> > > >>shorted cell.,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >Before I end up replacing the battery and voltage regulator, does
anyone
> >have any ideas?
>
> The only form of battery condition that can make
> the system unstable to the degree that an ov protection
> system trips is an OPEN battery. If it started
> your engine then this possibility is eliminated.
>
> If you get spikes in the ammeter the same time the ov trips,
> then there is a problem with the regulator -OR- wiring that
> hooks up the regulator/field wiring. I had a similar problem
> with an airplane that was getting transient shorts between the
> field and b-leads attached to the alternator. There have
> been situations where pieces came loose inside an alternator
> and allowed it to go into runaway mode but this is VERY rare.
>
> I think Dave S. commented on this and I agree that the problem
> seems most likely to reside in your regulator.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: citabria triiong overvoltage relay |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stephen Johnson" <spjohnsn@ix.netcom.com>
A good thing to do would be to get a portable oscilloscope and take a look
at the battery voltage to see how clean it is. A bad alternator with some
diodes blown will cause ripple in the voltage which can trip the overvoltage
relay.
Steve Johnson
building RV-8
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe and Carole Tuminello" <mouseysf@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: citabria triiong overvoltage relay
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe and Carole Tuminello
<mouseysf@pacbell.net>
>
> My mechanic said id is a solid state regulator and that if it was that it
> would simply go all together not act intermitent. I put the new battery in
> and it still did it, but less frequently.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: citabria triiong overvoltage relay
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> >
> > At 07:45 AM 12/10/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe and Carole Tuminello
> > ><mouseysf@pacbell.net>
> > >
> > >Matt,
> > >Thanks the old battery is fine. It reads the full voltage static, I
think
> > >12.8 volts. Somebody else having a similar problem says it is most
likely
> > >the old over voltage relay causing nuisance trips. We shall see.
> > >Thank you
> > >Joe
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >>by wx30. The ampmeter jumps up and overvolts cuttign off the
> alternator.
> > > > >>Resest it and it does it again and again. I have a new alternator,
> > > > >>only 3 years old. The battery is 3 years old also and has plenty
of
> > > > >>cranking power. Someone is trying to convince me the battery has a
> > > > >>shorted cell.,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >Before I end up replacing the battery and voltage regulator, does
> anyone
> > >have any ideas?
> >
> > The only form of battery condition that can make
> > the system unstable to the degree that an ov protection
> > system trips is an OPEN battery. If it started
> > your engine then this possibility is eliminated.
> >
> > If you get spikes in the ammeter the same time the ov trips,
> > then there is a problem with the regulator -OR- wiring that
> > hooks up the regulator/field wiring. I had a similar problem
> > with an airplane that was getting transient shorts between the
> > field and b-leads attached to the alternator. There have
> > been situations where pieces came loose inside an alternator
> > and allowed it to go into runaway mode but this is VERY rare.
> >
> > I think Dave S. commented on this and I agree that the problem
> > seems most likely to reside in your regulator.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 'Essential' bus |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: lm4@juno.com
Bob,
It looks like your going to be out gunned on this.
Mr. Reed, my high school aeronautical ground school teacher was an
employee of the first Air mail service. He told us this story once.
A Britisher came over to study the Airmail service and while he and
the group were barnstorming one day the britisher mentioned
an instrument. He called it an al-tim-it-er. The "boys", of course,
knew it as an al-ta-meter. Without a word being said the boys
realized that this was a better pronunciation of the word and from
then on all of the kings men could not change the word back.
I think your stuck with essential.
Larry Mac Donald
Rochester N.Y.
do not archive
On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:22:36 -0500 "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca> writes:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle"
> <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>
> Bob,
> Compliments of the Season.
> In the topic of E-bus, allow me an opinion. Keep
> 'Essential'. I
> know the temptation to call something by its functional purpose, but
> that
> undoes all my 'mediaeval' training and experience.
> The management of my former airline (easy, now) raised
> hell when
> pilots trained in the 'old ways' called the "Thrust Levers" -
> throttles! My
> God, don't these people understand? Things are different now! Of
> course this
> was at the behest of Boeing - who have the temerity to think they
> are the
> inventors of flight. The fact that the "thrust levers" sat on the
> "throttle
> stand" didn't even phase these words-smiths. So one old geezer (who
> flew
> like a bird) failed and went back to the last aircraft to eke out
> his
> existence. What a waste.
> The airline used to serve a small container called, "for
> your
> salad".
> Not what it is, but what it's for. I wonder what they would call
> toilet
> paper?
> As a lifetime birdman, I figure it's what fellow pilots
> call it,
> not what some upwardly-mobile scrambler dubs it. So it's "throttle"
> for the
> Go-lever, and "essential" for what's needed. Endurance is for law
> students.
> Just my $.02..........
> Ferg Europa A064
>
>
>
> _->
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
Ferg:
The 3M name on the tube is...Fire Barrier CP 25WB+ Caulk. It's latex based.
The 3M I.D. # is 98-0400-5379-9.
We have 6 Home Depots here in the Memphis area and I found the caulk at 5 of
them. Don't look in the paint section. The only place that I've found it
is in electrical section. And, it's usually hidden pretty well. One store
had it in the shipping box on the floor level. If you need any more info
off the tube drop a note.
Bill
Skybolt
> Bill:
> Can you spec the exact product? Here, Home Deepot have
> everything but. I would like to order the exact copy, as there is lots of
> "just-as-good" material on the shelves to flog.
> Ferg
> Europa A064
>
>
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
In a message dated 12/21/2002 3:46:12 PM Central Standard Time,
n744bh@bellsouth.net writes:
>
> The 3M name on the tube is...Fire Barrier CP 25WB+ Caulk. It's latex
> based.
> The 3M I.D. # is 98-0400-5379-9.
> We have 6 Home Depots here in the Memphis area and I found the caulk at 5
> of
> them. Don't look in the paint section. The only place that I've found it
> is in electrical section. And, it's usually hidden pretty well. One store
> had it in the shipping box on the floor level. If you need any more info
> off the tube drop a note.
>
Bill:
In reviewing the mail today, I noticed the "Memphis area". Do you live
in the Memphis area? I am building a Lancair ES in Collierville. What are you
building?
ED
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 'Essential' bus |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:22 AM 12/21/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>
>Bob,
> Compliments of the Season.
> In the topic of E-bus, allow me an opinion. Keep 'Essential'. I
>know the temptation to call something by its functional purpose, but that
>undoes all my 'mediaeval' training and experience.
> The management of my former airline (easy, now) raised hell when
>pilots trained in the 'old ways' called the "Thrust Levers" - throttles! My
>God, don't these people understand? Things are different now! Of course this
>was at the behest of Boeing - who have the temerity to think they are the
>inventors of flight. The fact that the "thrust levers" sat on the "throttle
>stand" didn't even phase these words-smiths. So one old geezer (who flew
>like a bird) failed and went back to the last aircraft to eke out his
>existence. What a waste.
> The airline used to serve a small container called, "for your
>salad".
>Not what it is, but what it's for. I wonder what they would call toilet
>paper?
> As a lifetime birdman, I figure it's what fellow pilots call it,
>not what some upwardly-mobile scrambler dubs it. So it's "throttle" for the
>Go-lever, and "essential" for what's needed. Endurance is for law students.
But would you call your vacuum pump a venturi? A fuel injector
a carburetor? A wet wing tank a bladder? A rotating beacon a strobe?
A GPS receiver an omni? Lots of features in our airplanes have
come and gone and I think it's safe to say were not saddened to
see many of them go.
Things "essential" are those that make the airplane come down
when they quit . . . if those are 'lectric things, then
run them from a battery bus . . . That way, when there are
bad smells that might have something to do with electrical
stuff, killing ALL master switches will not trade a
bad situation for a worse one.
Just as fiberglas, carbon fiber, epoxy and nc-cut-n-drilled
metal offer new paradigms in structures, I hope
what we do here offers new paradigms in the architecture
and operation of electrical systems. If I were to use
the word "essential bus" in conversation with one of the
ol' gray-beards in flight test, he would nod his head and
assume I was talking about HIS personal experience base when in
fact, there is a BIG difference in our respective understanding.
For him, meeting an FAA notion of 30 minute of battery power
to get on the ground is a tried, true and ACCEPTABLE
way to think about electrical systems. When I say "endurance
bus" his eyes widen and he wonders what the hell I'm talking
about. NOW . . . that I have his attention, instead of
discussing the less-than-30-minutes interval it takes
for a tense situation to become an emergency, we can
discuss the notion of calmly, deliberately and comfortably
driving on to airport of original intended destination.
I respectfully suggest my friend, that IS an endurance bus.
Bob . . .
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