---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/17/03: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:31 AM - Re: Grounds (Jon Finley) 2. 06:20 AM - Re: Wiring issues at the wing root (Randy Pflanzer) 3. 07:28 AM - Re: Where should I put the ammeter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:32 AM - dimmer switches (Stucklen, Frederic IFC) 5. 07:38 AM - One wire alternater (Benford2@aol.com) 6. 07:50 AM - Re: Wiring issues at the wing root (Lynwood Stagg) 7. 08:12 AM - Re: Antenna Location Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:23 AM - Re: One wire alternater (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 09:26 AM - Re: dimmer switches (Ron Raby) 10. 10:26 AM - Re: Wiring issues at the wing root (Randy Pflanzer) 11. 12:43 PM - Summary of concerns on electric gyro reliability (Stephen Johnson) 12. 02:22 PM - S701-1 contactor for OV (DWENSING@aol.com) 13. 02:25 PM - Re: Summary of concerns on electric gyro reliability (Jerzy Krasinski) 14. 06:22 PM - Fuses (Eric M. Jones) 15. 06:31 PM - Switch Alternatives for Galls flashers (Eric M. Jones) 16. 07:04 PM - Re: Switch Alternatives for Galls flashers (John Slade) 17. 10:38 PM - LARGE VOLTAGE DROP (Meketa) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:43 AM PST US From: "Jon Finley" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Grounds --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" Hi Sam, You know that wiring changes won't contribute to speed, don't you?? :-) We have very different systems in our Q's but if it helps: I installed my ground block and main bus fuse panel on the aft wall of my header tank (behind the instrument panel for those that don't know Q's). I have a large ground cable (#4) that runs from the battery (tail) to the engine case then a smaller wire (#10, if memory serves) that runs back to the panel (from the engine case ground). This really isn't applicable to you (I have an electrically dependent engine (Subaru EJ-22)): I installed my e-bus next to the battery box in the tail and from it run my EFI, aux header pump, and aux EFI pump. Jon Finley N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 440 Hrs. TT - 0 Hrs Engine Apple Valley, Minnesota http://www.FinleyWeb.net/default.asp?id=96 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Sam Hoskins > Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 9:51 PM > To: Aerolectric List > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Grounds > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" > --> > > Bob, I am doing some rewiring of my Q-200 and would like to > install better ground paths and connections. I would like to > use your firewall ground kit set-up but it is really hard to > access the aft side of the firewall. (It was a lot easier 20 > years ago when I originally built the plane). > > What do you think about locating one groundblock on the > firewall, then a connecting cable to a ground near the panel? > Here's a link to some photos of my buggy. > http://home.globaleyes.net/shoskins/n202shdeta> il.html > > Thanks. > > Sam > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:16 AM PST US From: Randy Pflanzer Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring issues at the wing root --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer Woody, You can check out my wing wiring at: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/ Go to the Wings section under F1 Rocket Project. I bought some 12 pin Mate-N-Loc connectors from Digikey and mounted them in the root rib of the wing. Randy #95 F1 Rocket ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynwood Stagg Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring issues at the wing root > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lynwood Stagg" > > Bob and list: > > Hello. I have been lurking and reading Bob's book and trying to > soak all this great information up. > > I am building and RV7A, and have some questions re: wing root > wiring, connectors, etc., and would like the feedback of the group. > > I plan on mounting wings a few times, and will likely fly before > painting, so straight wire runs I don't think are a good option > for me. > > For pitot heat, pos. lights, and landing lights, I plan on using > the knife splices from AMP. > > I am putting an Archer Wintip Nav antenna in with RG400 cable. > Planned to use a BNC at or near the wing root. Any issues about > this that I should be aware of? > > Whelen wingtip strobes - I thought a mate-n-lok (like what is on > the ends) at the wing root would be acceptable. Had questions as > to the shielding and radio noise. Can I just put the shield to a > pin in the connector at the root? Is there a shielded connector > that I should be using here? > > AP wing servo - My understanding is several 20g and 22g (12 or > so?) wires for the Tru-trak. Servo hasn't gotten here yet. > Probably a multi-pin type connector at the root, rather than knife > splices. > I would welcome any feedback, positive or negative. I am very new > at this. > > Thanks, > Woody Stagg > RV-7A > Future Z-14 > > > _- > ======================================================================_- = - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > _- > ======================================================================_- = !! NEWish !! > _- > ======================================================================_- = List Related Information > _- > ====================================================================== > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Where should I put the ammeter? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:02 PM 1/16/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" > > >Bob, I'm using a variation of Figure Z-11, without a starter. Where would >be best place to put the internal shunt ammeter? Since there are two >feeds off the battery, I'm a little confused. > >Quickie Q-200 with the battery in the tail. > >Any suggestions? > >Thanks! > >Sam I presume you're talking about a minus-zero-plus type ammeter designed to read battery discharge-charge levels like automobiles of old and Cessnas of late. If you want to use this instrument, you have to bring fat, high current wires to the panel . . . an interference issue we try to avoid. You also have to wire the bus-to-battery feed so that it carries both discharge current from battery to bus and charge current from alternator to battery. This requires that you connect the alternator b-lead to the bus inside the cockpit . . . another fat wire unnecessarily brought inside to accommodate an instrument. If you'd like to use this instrument, you need to pitch Z-11 and get out the wiring diagram for a C-172. Otherwise, I'd recommend replacing it with a remotely shunted, alternator loadmeter style instrument. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:09 AM PST US From: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" Subject: AeroElectric-List: dimmer switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" Ron, I've called and asked for a sample for "Business" evaluation purposes.. Their technology is similar to a dimmer circuit I had installed in my last RV that worked out very well.. I'll let you and the list know how they work after I get one and test it on the panel I'm working on now... It might be interesting to see how a digital output works on the LED's I have in the panel......AND what kind of RFI suppression they have in their design so that there's no radio interference..... Fred Stucklen RV-6A --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" > Came across these dimmer switches. They look good. Ron Raby N829R ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:45 AM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: One wire alternater --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com Bob, I am using a Ford engine and I would like to use a one wire alt, internally shunted-60-0-+60 ammeter. I have always liked those because it shows whether the charging systems are keeping up or not. Please feed me the pros and cons of this setup. Thanks. N801BH. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:18 AM PST US From: "Lynwood Stagg" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring issues at the wing root --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lynwood Stagg" Thanks Randy. I had not run across your site yet. Very helpful. With the Whelen install kit for strobes, the 3 conductor cable has a shield for attach at the power supply end. Did you just run this through the wing root connector too? I wasn't sure how this would impact the shielding re:noise. Thanks, Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Pflanzer" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring issues at the wing root > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer > > Woody, > > You can check out my wing wiring at: > > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/ > > Go to the Wings section under F1 Rocket Project. > > I bought some 12 pin Mate-N-Loc connectors from Digikey and mounted > them in the root rib of the wing. > >>>snip ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antenna Location Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:33 PM 1/16/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com > >Bob and others, I would like to locate my comm antenna (KX-125) and >transponder antenna (GTX-320A) at the opposite rear corners of the floor in >my RV-6 just ahead of the wing spar. I understand from the RV-List that this >has been done successfully, but my concern is that the installation manuals >for both the above units state that the antenna should be a minimum of three >feet from the unit. The actual distance measured from the front panels of >the units in my preferred locations would be closer to two to two and a half >feet. So my question is, can anyone cite actual experience with an >installation like this or at least give me an educated opinion as to whether >I will encounter any problem(s) if I proceed as planned. Thanks as always >for any advice. You can generally install antennas any handy place on the airplane and get satisfactory performance. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: One wire alternater --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:37 AM 1/17/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > >Bob, I am using a Ford engine and I would like to use a one wire alt, >internally shunted-60-0-+60 ammeter. I have always liked those because it >shows whether the charging systems are keeping up or not. Please feed me the >pros and cons of this setup. Thanks. N801BH. This ammeter cannot be used in a low noise, simple architectures as described in Appendix Z of the 'Connection. There are better ways to "show whether the charging systems are keeping up or not." Before you carve this decision into stone, I'll suggest you review the 'Connection for the concepts that support these "non-standard" approaches to wiring an airplane . . . especially the chapters on noise and reliability. The zero-center-ammeter just doesn't fit any of these architectures . . . which isn't a bad deal because it's really EASY to know if your charging system is keeping up or not. Just install a low volts warning light as described http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf and offered pre-assembled at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005.html Ammeters and voltmeters are DIAGNOSTIC devices that are easily missed or ignored if something is wrong with the system. -0+ ammeters make it difficult to build a low-noise system. Active notification of low voltage cannot be ignored and will annuniciated the need for initiating "plan-B" within seconds of the failure. Bob . . . |-------------------------------------------------------| | The man who does not read good books has no advantage | | over the man who cannot read them. | | - Mark Twain | |-------------------------------------------------------| ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:25 AM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dimmer switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" Fred I ordered a sample also, they said 10 days. we will see Thanks Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" Subject: AeroElectric-List: dimmer switches > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" > > Ron, > > I've called and asked for a sample for "Business" evaluation purposes.. > Their technology is similar to a dimmer circuit I had installed in my last > RV that worked out very well.. I'll let you and the list know how they work > after I get one and test it on the panel I'm working on now... It might be > interesting to see how a digital output works on the LED's I have in the > panel......AND what kind of RFI suppression they have in their design so > that there's no radio interference..... > > Fred Stucklen > RV-6A > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" > 01161857.h0GIvkv26760@matronics.com>> > > Came across these dimmer switches. They look good. > > Ron Raby > > N829R > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:01 AM PST US From: Randy Pflanzer Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring issues at the wing root --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer Yes, the ground wire is not connected to anything at the tip. At the root, I added a connector just for the strobe ground and did not connect it with other gound wires in the bundle. That essentially left the ground wire intact from the tip to the power supply. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynwood Stagg Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring issues at the wing root > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lynwood Stagg" > > Thanks Randy. I had not run across your site yet. Very helpful. > > With the Whelen install kit for strobes, the 3 conductor cable has > a shield > for attach at the power supply end. Did you just run this through > the wing > root connector too? I wasn't sure how this would impact the shielding > re:noise. > > Thanks, > Woody > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randy Pflanzer" > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring issues at the wing root > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer > > > > > Woody, > > > > You can check out my wing wiring at: > > > > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/ > > > > Go to the Wings section under F1 Rocket Project. > > > > I bought some 12 pin Mate-N-Loc connectors from Digikey and mounted > > them in the root rib of the wing. > > > >>>snip > > > _- > ======================================================================_- = - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > _- > ======================================================================_- = !! NEWish !! > _- > ======================================================================_- = List Related Information > _- > ====================================================================== > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:33 PM PST US From: "Stephen Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Summary of concerns on electric gyro reliability --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stephen Johnson" The postings the last week on electric gyro reliability have penetrated my thick skull and actually caused me to change my mind about the way I will initially equip my RV-8. Without rehashing everything, the real show stopper for me on the electric gyros is the failure mode where you can have false attitude information with no indication that the gyro has failed. I attribute this to the fact that the electric gyros have internal circuity to convert DC to AC for the motor. True, you have the other gyros to compare, but the task of deciding where the error lies in a timely manner in actual IFR conditions is something I would rather not try. With a vacuum system, you have the option of a low suction warning light as well as the suction gauge. Add this to the fact that the value of the RC Allen gyros will drop subtantially when EFIS is a working reality with some service history. Right now I think I will go with the vacuum system, change the pump at 500 hour intervals, equip with a suction warning light, and design the system to be easily converted to a dual alternator/essential bus configuration later when the inevitable price reductions and improvements arrive with EFIS. I just ordered the servo kit for the S-Tec model 30, so I'll have the autopilot on the electrical bus if the vacuum pump gives out just as a backup. Steve Johnson building RV-8 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:40 PM PST US From: DWENSING@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: S701-1 contactor for OV --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DWENSING@aol.com Bob, Recently you stated "To use the S701-1 as a OV disconnect contactor in the B-lead of your alternator, the jumper is removed, the terminal marked TO MASTER SWITCH goes to ground, the terminal that used to have the jumper on it goes to your alternator control switch, crowbar ovm and alternator control lead." Question: can these connections be reversed? Dale Ensing ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:04 PM PST US From: Jerzy Krasinski Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Summary of concerns on electric gyro reliability --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski I made ~1000 hours flying with lousy communist made electrical gyros, and I never had any failures. I got a failure of all vacuum gyros at once after ~100 hours. I would be careful getting reliability conclusions based on few cases. Does anybody have any real statistical data? Jerzy Stephen Johnson wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stephen Johnson" > >The postings the last week on electric gyro reliability have penetrated my >thick skull and actually caused me to change my mind about the way I will >initially equip my RV-8. Without rehashing everything, the real show >stopper for me on the electric gyros is the failure mode where you can have >false attitude information with no indication that the gyro has failed. I >attribute this to the fact that the electric gyros have internal circuity to >convert DC to AC for the motor. True, you have the other gyros to compare, >but the task of deciding where the error lies in a timely manner in actual >IFR conditions is something I would rather not try. With a vacuum system, >you have the option of a low suction warning light as well as the suction >gauge. Add this to the fact that the value of the RC Allen gyros will drop >subtantially when EFIS is a working reality with some service history. >Right now I think I will go with the vacuum system, change the pump at 500 >hour intervals, equip with a suction warning light, and design the system to >be easily converted to a dual alternator/essential bus configuration later >when the inevitable price reductions and improvements arrive with EFIS. I >just ordered the servo kit for the S-Tec model 30, so I'll have the >autopilot on the electrical bus if the vacuum pump gives out just as a >backup. > >Steve Johnson >building RV-8 > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:19 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuses --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" Everything I think know about fuses, but just my opinions: European fuses seem to have poor ability to withstand vibration. This is an important spec for aircraft. The fuses in German-made machinery have historically been less reliable than US stuff. For the last 28-years I would see German fuses come apart in a million pieces: Two end-caps, an element, a glass tube and 999,996 grains of sand. NASA technicians replaced lots of fuses with brass rods (called no-blows) when manned launches started. It took me two years to find the short-circuit in my Jeep that blew the foglight fuses every nine months. People get PhD's in fusing technology, but there is always stuff that will burn up and not blow a fuse. Don't plug a vacuum cleaner into your computer power strip. Eric M. Jones ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:58 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Alternatives for Galls flashers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" Toggles versus rockers: I always though toggle switches looked ancient. But the problem with rockers is: 1) They are not very standard. A company will make a rocker for a while, then POOF!. You will be left with a funny-looking rectangular hole in your panel and find nothing to fit it. Ask any design engineers if it's happened to their project. 2) Rockers are hard to seal, and hard to mount compared to toggles. 3) Toggles are easier to see and easier to use. The shiny ball end is not a mistake. When you look at a picture of instrument panels, you can tell the position of toggles by the light reflected from their tops. 4) The space shuttle, which costs more than $60,000 has toggle switches. So originally I though I would use rockers.....but I came back. In a hundred years toggle switches will still be around and still be the switch of choice for lots of things. Eric M. Jones ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:09 PM PST US From: "John Slade" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch Alternatives for Galls flashers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > So originally I though I would use rockers.....but I came back. I felt the same. I also decided that lighted switches sound cool, but I do I really want my panel to look like a christmas tree at night. Answer - not unless something is wrong..... i.e. inadvertant fuel crossfeed. John Slade CoolCozy ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:34 PM PST US From: "Meketa" Subject: AeroElectric-List: LARGE VOLTAGE DROP --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Meketa" Bob I would like to hear your theory to the cause of this problem I experienced. Here are pieces of several messages on the subject. Not on an airplane, but airplane related. The voltage drop was 5-6 volts across about 6 feet of cable. >Another friends 63 Corvette had severe cranking problems when hot. > A voltage drop test found all the battery cables had high amounts of > voltage loss when crankling. A master battery cable disconnect was installed > under the seat and the longer cables were fabricated with fine strand welding > cable. He had a hard time believing my diagnosis, but replaced the cables > anyway. Problem solved. He used the same style welding cable and the > problem reoccured again a year later. He now has standard automotive > battery cable with no further problems. This friend builds custom cars for > a living and now uses only auto type battery cable. We never figured out > the real problem with the cables, it was not the terminal connections, but > in the cable itself. Possible internal oxidation of some type. >I never came to an actual conclusion as to the cause of the welding cable problem, >but do have several theories. The oxidation being the main one (the inner strands >were not bright copper colored), and a change in metalurgy due to high amperage >loads on the cable being the other. For years I have read or heard that the fine >stranded cable is far superior to standard automotive cable and never heard of any >problems. The supplier of the second set of cables rebuilds starters and alternators >for a living and swears by them. The tefzel battery cable on my plane is fine strand, >but the conductor is tin coated. I suspect it would not be as vulnerable to the >oxidation. That would make a simple test on the Corvette, but would be a lot harder >to run due to the lack of flexability in the cable. Maybe a good question for >Aeroelectric Bob. >You will likely never have a problem with yours. The particular engine with these >cables is a 600+ HP/430+CID small block. A high torque starter and large battery >are required to crank the engine. On a hot day and the engine warmed up about >300 amps continuous and a peak well over 400 amps is required to crank it. I have >no figures for our aircraft engines, but it is far less than that. Maybe less than 100 >amps. Thanks in advance George Meketa Van's RV8, 239 hours