Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:01 AM - Sikorsky S-76 Upgrades (John Schroeder)
2. 07:48 AM - Re: Crowbar Device (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 08:00 AM - LEDs (Fergus Kyle)
4. 09:07 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 02/10/03 (Doug Lawton)
5. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Crowbar Device (Rob Housman)
6. 09:41 AM - solenoid (Steve Richard)
7. 09:47 AM - Re: Starter solenoid (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:48 AM - Re: solenoid (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
9. 09:53 AM - Re: Secure site? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 11:17 AM - Re: solenoid (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 03:42 PM - EXPBUS (Huw & Rachel)
12. 04:28 PM - Re: EXPBUS (Matt Prather)
13. 06:31 PM - Re: EXPBUS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 07:46 PM - Re: EXPBUS (James E. Clark)
15. 08:10 PM - Re: Re: Crowbar Device (Paul McAllister)
16. 08:28 PM - Re: EXPBUS (Matt Prather)
17. 08:34 PM - Re: EXPBUS (Mark Phillips)
18. 08:38 PM - Re: Starter solenoid (Jim and Lucy)
19. 08:55 PM - Re: Starter solenoid (Michel Therrien)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Sikorsky S-76 Upgrades |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
This note was on Aero News Net. Sikorsky is planning on a major upgrading of
their S-76 helicopter line. I thought the mention of solid state contactors was
interesting for us homebuilders who already know about them!
""Operator data directs our S-76 improvements, so we are confident that the
benefit to the customer is real," said Thomason. The diverse reliability and
maintainability improvements being fielded in 2003 include:
Field-replaceable main gearbox upper main rotor shaft seal;
Improved corrosion resistance of the landing gear;
"Smart contactor" design to preserve correct electrical system switching
New engine vent line that improves Arriel breathing while reducing leakage and
oil consumption;
Increased life for the tail rotor horn;
Enhanced Mark XXII EGPWS for better GPS reception, in conjunction with
Honeywell."
Do not archive
John Schroeder
Message 2
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| Subject: | re: Crowbar Device |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
I have recently bought one of your crowbars to fit to my Europa + Rotax
912. It is a standard Europa Club modification and fitting instructions
with a circuit diagram are published. Nigel Charles, who is the club's
Modifications Representative had dealings with you some while ago.
I installed the crowbar plus a 40A relay, but with a 5A fuse instead of the
circuit breaker. At some stage during the first flight the Crowbar operated
and the fuse blew. It may have been at start-up or early in the flight, but
I didn't notice. I turned off all unnecessary electrics and completed the
flight on the battery alone. On inspection the 22,000uF capacitor had also
blown and had leaked soot and fluid.
Hmmmm . . wonder if it was hooked up backwards. Electrolytic
capacitors are polarity sensitive . . .
Following recommendations, I replaced the capacitor and used a slow blow 5A
fuse instead.
The crowbar ov module should always be used with a 5A breaker . . .
The next flight was uneventful and charged the whole time, but the
following flight blew the fuse on start-up. I replaced the fuse and the
flight was OK. Following further recommendations, I replaced the slow blow
fuse with a 5A circuit breaker.
Very good . . .
I also wired up a multi-meter across the regulator output and earth to
monitor voltage. The next flight was OK and charger at 14.05 V. After
landing and waiting for about 5 mins I started again and the c.b. blew
immediately. I tried resetting it a few times, but it would not remain
connected. The multi-meter recorded voltages of 35 to 40 volts depending on
rpm, so I shut down the engine. Further advice was to connect the regulator
control wire directly to the regulator output wire instead of to the Master
solonoid output terminal. This was a mod. to the Rotax suggested circuit
diagram, but had not been made to my A/C wiring. (It had run for 400 hours
like this without a problem) I made the change and ground ran the engine,
but it would not charge.
If you have this much output from the system under
any circumstances, I suspect the regulator/rectifier
is hurt . . .
At this stage I decided to remove all new components and restore the
original circuit. When doing so, I found that the c.b. would not function
properly and the insulation to the two wires to the crowbar had melted and
fused together. I bridged the reg. output wires to replace the relay and
ran the engine. It gave a constant charge of 13.75 volts, but I have not
yet flown since to test the system thoroughly.
Interesting . . . I'm wondering where the 30 volt
transient went . . .
I am concerned that I might have damaged the regulator which might cause it
to fail at a later stage. I am still keen to use one of your crowbar
devices to protect my avionics, but I do not want to have any further bad
experiences.
I'd like to see your wiring diagram. Suggest you compare what
you've done with Figure Z-16 of the AeroElectric Connection.
Rotax is not known for their critical understanding of
electrical systems.
I should be most grateful if you would give me your advice on fitting
another crowbar unit plus c.b. and relay and also whether or not you
consider I should replace the regulator, so as to avoid future problems. If
you would like to see my circuit diagrams, I could fax them to you if you
could e-mail your fax number. I am afraid I do not have a scanner.
You can fax a copy to 316.685.8617
Bob . . .
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Cheers,
There is one more consideration which builders may want to
question: The angle of the display (azimuth?).
I drilled a series of small holes in my innermost bulkheads and
buried LEDs in them so that they would light up the darkest innards for
repair or mod work. I neglected initially to check the angle at which the
LED displays the light and so the first few are 'spots' where they should be
'floods' (yellow is a good substitute for white - less costly).
I now plan using spots (10deg or less) for red instruments, one
per dial, and flood whites for general cockpit area and dark corners. These
'spots' are also great for bedlights when one wants to read without flooding
the partner. I got one wall insertion down to lighting just the page........
So consider lighting angle when you shop..........
Ferg
Europa A064
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 02/10/03 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Lawton" <skyrider2@earthlink.net>
Bob,
Just curious, is your website's order taking capability a secure
transaction? It doesn't look to be so.
I'd like to order a copy of the book, but I'm not in favor of insecure
transactions over the internet. I tried calling your phone number to relay
credit card information and got the fax.
Just starting on the planning stages of my electrical system and need all
the help I can get......
Doug Lawton
Europa Mono-Motorglider A244
Message 5
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| Subject: | re: Crowbar Device |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
...but you DO have a scanner.
If you have a fax machine (as you say) and you have a PC (obviously, since
you are on line) with a modem (and fax software), all you need to do is fax
the document to your PC, and you have a scanned document. You do need two
separate phone lines, one for each device.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airfarame complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: Crowbar Device
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
I am afraid I do not have a scanner.
You can fax a copy to 316.685.8617
Bob . . .
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Richard" <steve@oasissolutions.com>
I'm planning on mounting my oxygen tank in the rear of the plane. The tank
has a simple lever actuated valve for opening and closing. I could run a
cable to open and close, but I would rather have it done electrically. I'm
looking for a solenoid with some special talents. I want it to stay in
position even if power is lost. Has anyone seen such a device? Any and all
suggestions taken.
Steve Richard
steve@oasissolutions.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Starter solenoid |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:02 PM 2/10/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>
>Hello Bob and friends,
>
>There's nothing better than a simple experiment to
>lighten up. Today, I wanted to know how much current
>my starter solenoid was draining... I remember reading
>Bob's article, but I suppose I did not understand it
>and decided not to use an external starter contactor.
<SNIP>
>Now I understand that peak current thing Bob explains
>and I can see how it would make a switch work
>harder... I modified my drawing to include a starter
>contactor. :-)
>
>Michel
Repeatable results are the foundation upon
which real science and understanding are
based . . . good work.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CozyGirrrl@aol.com
In a message dated 2/11/2003 11:42:46 AM Central Standard Time,
steve@oasissolutions.com writes:
>
> I'm planning on mounting my oxygen tank in the rear of the plane. The tank
> has a simple lever actuated valve for opening and closing. I could run a
> cable to open and close, but I would rather have it done electrically. I'm
> looking for a solenoid with some special talents. I want it to stay in
> position even if power is lost. Has anyone seen such a device? Any and
> all
> suggestions taken.
>
> Steve Richard
> steve@oasissolutions.com
Steve, I'm sure there are solenoid valves that move a piston one way then
another, my concern with your plan would be in the event you lost all power,
you still need a means of shutting off the bottle if you were going down.
Oxygen could be just as bad as a fuel leak.
...Chrissi
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Secure site? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:03 PM 2/11/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Lawton"
><skyrider2@earthlink.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>Just curious, is your website's order taking capability a secure
>transaction? It doesn't look to be so.
No. The costs of secure website software adds only a
modicum of safety to an issue that is hundreds of
times wider than encrypted transfers from your browser
to my server . . . I've determined that the whole
"secure server" thing is bogus and I elected not
to load my customers with essentially
worthless overhead.
>I'd like to order a copy of the book, but I'm not in favor of insecure
>transactions over the internet. I tried calling your phone number to relay
>credit card information and got the fax.
If I'm in the office, I pick up in 4 rings or less. Otherwise
you get the fax. You could fax your order in.
>Just starting on the planning stages of my electrical system and need all
>the help I can get......
B&C stocks the book too . . . you can call them during
CST business hours and talk to a person who will write down
your order. Call 316.283.8000
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:47 PM 2/11/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CozyGirrrl@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 2/11/2003 11:42:46 AM Central Standard Time,
>steve@oasissolutions.com writes:
>
>
> >
> > I'm planning on mounting my oxygen tank in the rear of the plane. The tank
> > has a simple lever actuated valve for opening and closing. I could run a
> > cable to open and close, but I would rather have it done electrically. I'm
> > looking for a solenoid with some special talents. I want it to stay in
> > position even if power is lost. Has anyone seen such a device? Any and
> > all
> > suggestions taken.
> >
> > Steve Richard
> > steve@oasissolutions.com
>
>Steve, I'm sure there are solenoid valves that move a piston one way then
>another, my concern with your plan would be in the event you lost all power,
>you still need a means of shutting off the bottle if you were going down.
>Oxygen could be just as bad as a fuel leak.
If you're planning to architecture and maintain the
airplane so as to ALWAYS have power, then what you're
looking for is a motor driven valve. You may be able to
adapt a MAC trim servo to the task. This would get
you an off-the-shelf gear box, actuation mechanism,
and limit switches. There may be other options in
the form of DC motor/gearbox combinations that
would facilitate the design.
Can you get some torque measurements on the valve
to help size the task?
Bob . . .
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Huw & Rachel" <huwrachel@earthlink.net>
>
>In a message dated 2/5/2003 4:20:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com writes:
>
> > Still, I'm leaning towards the EXPBUS - as it must be the simplest and
most
> > well arranged system for the homebuilder. So - to all who has been
there,
> > done that: what's your experience/advice??
>>
> If for no other reasons:
>
> (1) The EXPbus may or may not have all the circuit features
> you need. What you see is what you get for now and
> in the future.
>
> (2) The EXPbus is warmed-over 1960's certifie-iron architecture.
>
> (3) For what the EXPbus costs, we can buy all the circuit
> protection, switches, terminals, wire, contactors and
> installation supplies to do any of the Z-figures or
> a variation thereof) and have money left over.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Bob
Sorry, this is a long post, but, I need to get it off my chest somewhere,
and this seems like the best place.
I just wish I had the knowledge to put together an alternative to the EXPBUS
using standard components.
For modern engines a continuous supply of electricity is necessary for
powered flight. We are installing an Eggenfellner Subaru in a Glastar and
the package comes with a very comprehensive Installation Manual.
The EXPBUS is so highly recommended for the Egg Sub installation that to go
another route requires factory approval or it may invalidate the warranty.
As far as I can make out, what the EXPBUS does for us is:
1 Provide Master Electrical Switch
2. Provide Alternator Field switch
3. Continuously monitors both batteries and picks the one with the greatest
output - so giving automatic switching between batteries.
4. Monitors high and low voltage situations
5. Provides warm up circuits for lamps
6. Provides fused supplies at various rates 3 amp, 5 amp, 7 amp, 9 amp, 11
amp.
7. Protects avionics at start up
8. Provide Keep Alive circuits
There is a lot that the EXPBUS does not do and all of that is explained very
well in the Installation Manual. I just wish that someone could lead me by
the hand to circuits designs and components that would replace the EXPBUS.
What the EXPBUS does not do, (quoting from the Eggenfellner Manual) is :
"Although the EXPBUS provides the majority of your secondary circuit
protection, several conventional circuit breakers and fuses will be required
to complete your installation. These should be Klixon, Potter & Brumfield,
or equivalent button type breakers."
Additional circuit breakers include:
1. 60A - Main Battery to EXPBUS (May also use an ANL-Type fuse if desired)
2. 50A - Alternator to EXPBUS
3. 20A - Aux Battery to Bus Master switch
4. 10A - Starter Solenoid and Optional Cabin Heater
5. 10A - Optional Pitot Heater and/or Optional Cabin Heater
Additional fuses include:
1. 10A - ATO Type - Main Fuel Pump
2. 10A - ATO Type - Aux Fuel Pump
3. 5A - ATO Type - Auto-Failover circuit and additional critical equipment.
4. 3A - ATO Type - Backup Gyro
The 60A Main Battery circuit breaker is used to isolate the Main Battery in
the event of a serious primary circuit short. Isolating the Main Battery
could potentially offer additional emergency flight time when running off
the Aux Battery by engaging the Aux Boost switch to cross-connect the two
batteries.
Fuses 1 through 4 are ATO Type fuses. These are common automotive "blade"
type fuses and can share a quad fuse block. The purpose of the 10A Fuel
Pump fuses is to provide a protective device which will blow slightly before
the EXPBUS protection (11A) will trip. This allows other equipment which is
using the EXPBUS circuits to continue to operate in the event of a shorted
fuel pump circuit. "
Any help would be much appreciated.
from
Huw & Rachel Williams
huwrachel@earthlink.net
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Huw & Rachel"
> <huwrachel@earthlink.net>
>
> Bob
>
> Sorry, this is a long post, but, I need to get it off my chest
...
> The EXPBUS is so highly recommended for the Egg Sub installation that to
> go another route requires factory approval or it may invalidate the
> warranty.
Any idea whether Egg is in cahoots with Expbus? This kind of thing
makes me wonder. None the less, if Egg is honest, I think they would
recognize the robustness of the Aeroelectric inspired designs, and
approval should be easy.
>
> As far as I can make out, what the EXPBUS does for us is:
> 1 Provide Master Electrical Switch
> 2. Provide Alternator Field switch
> 3. Continuously monitors both batteries and picks the one with the
> greatest output - so giving automatic switching between batteries.
> 4. Monitors high and low voltage situations
> 5. Provides warm up circuits for lamps
> 6. Provides fused supplies at various rates 3 amp, 5 amp, 7 amp, 9 amp,
> 11 amp.
> 7. Protects avionics at start up
> 8. Provide Keep Alive circuits
>
I kind of liken this list of capabilities to Sears selling a machine that
washes clothes, dishes, is a cd player and cooks for you you. And,
you have to pay more because all of the capabilities are installed in
one box (for 'convenience'). Those are all things that we like to have
(maybe even need), but it may be inconvenient and impractical (and
maybe less safe) to have them all located in the kitchen. It really
doesn't make sense to pay extra for them either.
If you think about the above list, its pretty short.
>
> There is a lot that the EXPBUS does not do and all of that is explained
> very well in the Installation Manual. I just wish that someone could
> lead me by the hand to circuits designs and components that would
> replace the EXPBUS.
>
> What the EXPBUS does not do, (quoting from the Eggenfellner Manual) is :
>
> "Although the EXPBUS provides the majority of your secondary circuit
> protection, several conventional circuit breakers and fuses will be
> required to complete your installation. These should be Klixon, Potter &
> Brumfield, or equivalent button type breakers."
>
> Additional circuit breakers include:
> 1. 60A - Main Battery to EXPBUS (May also use an ANL-Type fuse if
> desired) 2. 50A - Alternator to EXPBUS
> 3. 20A - Aux Battery to Bus Master switch
> 4. 10A - Starter Solenoid and Optional Cabin Heater
> 5. 10A - Optional Pitot Heater and/or Optional Cabin Heater
> Additional fuses include:
> 1. 10A - ATO Type - Main Fuel Pump
> 2. 10A - ATO Type - Aux Fuel Pump
> 3. 5A - ATO Type - Auto-Failover circuit and additional critical
> equipment. 4. 3A - ATO Type - Backup Gyro
>
If you duplicated a few of the items on the not-included list (add a
couple of
breakers/fuses for other electricals in the airplane), you would have to
add only
a couple of extra components (a few switches, a couple of contactors, a diode
bridge, some heat-shrink) to completely replace the ExpBus with a more
modular, custom designed system. I suspect that in the end, you are going to
end up spending enough time studying your electrical system that you would
have been able to understand it without the Expbus. At that point, if you
have
some kind of anomally, you have a clue about where it might be coming from.
Hmm....
>
> from
> Huw & Rachel Williams
> huwrachel@earthlink.net
>
Regards,
Matt Prather
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
>Bob
>
>Sorry, this is a long post, but, I need to get it off my chest somewhere,
>and this seems like the best place.
Yup . . . that's what we're all here for . . .
>I just wish I had the knowledge to put together an alternative to the EXPBUS
>using standard components.
So did we all face a similar challenge at some point in the past . . .
>For modern engines a continuous supply of electricity is necessary for
>powered flight. We are installing an Eggenfellner Subaru in a Glastar and
>the package comes with a very comprehensive Installation Manual.
>The EXPBUS is so highly recommended for the Egg Sub installation that to go
>another route requires factory approval or it may invalidate the warranty.
I'm mystified as to why this should be so. But let's see what
the requirements really are and then see if the EXPBUS offers
some kind of magic that cannot be duplicated or replaced.
>As far as I can make out, what the EXPBUS does for us is:
>1 Provide Master Electrical Switch
>2. Provide Alternator Field switch
>3. Continuously monitors both batteries and picks the one with the greatest
>output - so giving automatic switching between batteries.
>4. Monitors high and low voltage situations
>5. Provides warm up circuits for lamps
>6. Provides fused supplies at various rates 3 amp, 5 amp, 7 amp, 9 amp, 11
>amp.
>7. Protects avionics at start up
>8. Provide Keep Alive circuits
>
>
>There is a lot that the EXPBUS does not do and all of that is explained very
>well in the Installation Manual. I just wish that someone could lead me by
>the hand to circuits designs and components that would replace the EXPBUS.
>
>What the EXPBUS does not do, (quoting from the Eggenfellner Manual) is :
Exactly what I was eluding to earlier . . . the cookie cutter
approach falls short in some ways . . .
>"Although the EXPBUS provides the majority of your secondary circuit
>protection, several conventional circuit breakers and fuses will be required
>to complete your installation. These should be Klixon, Potter & Brumfield,
>or equivalent button type breakers."
>
>Additional circuit breakers include:
>1. 60A - Main Battery to EXPBUS (May also use an ANL-Type fuse if
>desired)
>2. 50A - Alternator to EXPBUS
>3. 20A - Aux Battery to Bus Master switch
>4. 10A - Starter Solenoid and Optional Cabin Heater
>5. 10A - Optional Pitot Heater and/or Optional Cabin Heater
>Additional fuses include:
>1. 10A - ATO Type - Main Fuel Pump
>2. 10A - ATO Type - Aux Fuel Pump
>3. 5A - ATO Type - Auto-Failover circuit and additional critical
>equipment.
>4. 3A - ATO Type - Backup Gyro
>
>The 60A Main Battery circuit breaker is used to isolate the Main Battery in
>the event of a serious primary circuit short. Isolating the Main Battery
>could potentially offer additional emergency flight time when running off
>the Aux Battery by engaging the Aux Boost switch to cross-connect the two
>batteries.
>
>Fuses 1 through 4 are ATO Type fuses. These are common automotive "blade"
>type fuses and can share a quad fuse block. The purpose of the 10A Fuel
>Pump fuses is to provide a protective device which will blow slightly before
>the EXPBUS protection (11A) will trip. This allows other equipment which is
>using the EXPBUS circuits to continue to operate in the event of a shorted
>fuel pump circuit.
It's been a goal of the AeroElectric Connection (and I
hope for those who participate on this list) to figure out
ways to meet electrical operational needs of ANY collection
of airborne hardware. The suite of architectures published
in Appendix Z of the book evolved as solutions to a variety
of unique requirements. All of them fabricated with simple,
off-the-shelf components.
There is no reason why we cannot modify one of the existing
architectures as needed to satisfy your anticipated system
needs along with some you may not have anticipated.
To start with, how about sending me copies of the
pertinent pages from the manual so I can familiarize myself
with any special requirements for this engine.
Bob . . .
6936 Bainbridge Road
Wichita, KS 67226-1008
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <jclark@conterra.com>
Why would one wonder if they are in "cahoots"?
I think we can discuss this without such implication.
The EXPBUS was developed some time ago with a particular purpose in mind
from a particular design perspective. I think it serves the purposes the
designers intended. We may argue that those are not our purposes or that it
does not serve our purposes as well as a more recently (or thoroughly)
thought through design. That is not only fair but healthy to think through.
It appears to me that the Eggenfellner people probably saw it as a tool that
would get them part the way there in a manner that they were comfortable
with for THEIR ENGINE INSTALLATION at the time they needed something.
Now maybe if they had time, insight or money they could have gotten Bob (or
some wise soul from this list) to do a better design (and maybe some day, if
such is presented, they will adopt same) ... but they don't have to be in
"cahoots" to have used the EXPBUS.
James
EXPBUS ...chosen for one RV project
AeroElectric Way ... chosen for another
... different strokes for different projects
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Matt
> Prather
> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 7:28 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXPBUS
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather"
> <mprather@spro.net>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Huw & Rachel"
> > <huwrachel@earthlink.net>
>
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > Sorry, this is a long post, but, I need to get it off my chest
> ...
> > The EXPBUS is so highly recommended for the Egg Sub installation that to
> > go another route requires factory approval or it may invalidate the
> > warranty.
>
>
> Any idea whether Egg is in cahoots with Expbus? This kind of thing
> makes me wonder. None the less, if Egg is honest, I think they would
> recognize the robustness of the Aeroelectric inspired designs, and
> approval should be easy.
>
>
> >
> > As far as I can make out, what the EXPBUS does for us is:
> > 1 Provide Master Electrical Switch
> > 2. Provide Alternator Field switch
> > 3. Continuously monitors both batteries and picks the one with the
> > greatest output - so giving automatic switching between batteries.
> > 4. Monitors high and low voltage situations
> > 5. Provides warm up circuits for lamps
> > 6. Provides fused supplies at various rates 3 amp, 5 amp, 7 amp, 9 amp,
> > 11 amp.
> > 7. Protects avionics at start up
> > 8. Provide Keep Alive circuits
> >
>
> I kind of liken this list of capabilities to Sears selling a machine that
> washes clothes, dishes, is a cd player and cooks for you you. And,
> you have to pay more because all of the capabilities are installed in
> one box (for 'convenience'). Those are all things that we like to have
> (maybe even need), but it may be inconvenient and impractical (and
> maybe less safe) to have them all located in the kitchen. It really
> doesn't make sense to pay extra for them either.
>
> If you think about the above list, its pretty short.
>
> >
> > There is a lot that the EXPBUS does not do and all of that is explained
> > very well in the Installation Manual. I just wish that someone could
> > lead me by the hand to circuits designs and components that would
> > replace the EXPBUS.
> >
> > What the EXPBUS does not do, (quoting from the Eggenfellner Manual) is :
> >
> > "Although the EXPBUS provides the majority of your secondary circuit
> > protection, several conventional circuit breakers and fuses will be
> > required to complete your installation. These should be Klixon, Potter &
> > Brumfield, or equivalent button type breakers."
> >
> > Additional circuit breakers include:
> > 1. 60A - Main Battery to EXPBUS (May also use an ANL-Type fuse if
> > desired) 2. 50A - Alternator to EXPBUS
> > 3. 20A - Aux Battery to Bus Master switch
> > 4. 10A - Starter Solenoid and Optional Cabin Heater
> > 5. 10A - Optional Pitot Heater and/or Optional Cabin Heater
> > Additional fuses include:
> > 1. 10A - ATO Type - Main Fuel Pump
> > 2. 10A - ATO Type - Aux Fuel Pump
> > 3. 5A - ATO Type - Auto-Failover circuit and additional critical
> > equipment. 4. 3A - ATO Type - Backup Gyro
> >
>
> If you duplicated a few of the items on the not-included list (add a
> couple of
> breakers/fuses for other electricals in the airplane), you would have to
> add only
> a couple of extra components (a few switches, a couple of
> contactors, a diode
> bridge, some heat-shrink) to completely replace the ExpBus with a more
> modular, custom designed system. I suspect that in the end, you
> are going to
> end up spending enough time studying your electrical system that you would
> have been able to understand it without the Expbus. At that point, if you
> have
> some kind of anomally, you have a clue about where it might be
> coming from.
> Hmm....
>
> >
> > from
> > Huw & Rachel Williams
> > huwrachel@earthlink.net
> >
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt Prather
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: re: Crowbar Device |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Bob,
> The multi-meter recorded voltages of 35 to 40 volts depending on
> rpm, so I shut down the engine.
I am a Europa builder and I intend to fit a 912S. I am curious to see the
report of over voltages this high. I was under the impression that the
permanment magnet alternator did not have enough "grunt" to generate a
significant overvoltage when a battery is connected to the system. Am I
mistaken in this assumption and should I seriously consider installing a
crowbar protection device ?
Paul
Message 16
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Prather <mprather@spro.net>
I would wonder because it was stated that Eggenfellner might not
honor the warrantee on their product should it be installed without
the purchase of companion products.
None the less, I chose my wording poorly, and admit that for me to
suggest that Control Vision or Eggenfellner might be involved in
dishonest business dealings was foolish. I appologize for any angst I
might have caused. Vendors of products designed for the custom
aircraft market have enough roadblocks in the way of success and
don't need people spreading baseless rumors or false accusations.
I have heard good things of the Eggenfellner product and am personally
excited about using a better engine than my old Continental. If these
guys are doing it, good for them.
As for the Exp Bus product, I haven't been able to understand its merits,
though that doesn't demonstrate that it doesn't have any.
I still stand by the ideal of education for the custom builder. I think we
as a group should well understand the ins and outs of the systems that
we install and use. I believe that it contributes to operational
safety. If,
after developing a clear understanding of the requirements of the electrical
system on our aircraft the benefits of a particular product stand out over
its weaknesses, then buy it and install it.
Regards,
Matt Prather
N34RD
James E. Clark wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <jclark@conterra.com>
>
>Why would one wonder if they are in "cahoots"?
>
>I think we can discuss this without such implication.
>
>The EXPBUS was developed some time ago with a particular purpose in mind
>from a particular design perspective. I think it serves the purposes the
>designers intended. We may argue that those are not our purposes or that it
>does not serve our purposes as well as a more recently (or thoroughly)
>thought through design. That is not only fair but healthy to think through.
>
>It appears to me that the Eggenfellner people probably saw it as a tool that
>would get them part the way there in a manner that they were comfortable
>with for THEIR ENGINE INSTALLATION at the time they needed something.
>
>Now maybe if they had time, insight or money they could have gotten Bob (or
>some wise soul from this list) to do a better design (and maybe some day, if
>such is presented, they will adopt same) ... but they don't have to be in
>"cahoots" to have used the EXPBUS.
>
>
>James
>
>EXPBUS ...chosen for one RV project
>AeroElectric Way ... chosen for another
>
>... different strokes for different projects
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Matt
>>Prather
>>Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 7:28 PM
>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXPBUS
>>
>>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather"
>><mprather@spro.net>
>>
>>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Huw & Rachel"
>>><huwrachel@earthlink.net>
>>>
>>>Bob
>>>
>>>Sorry, this is a long post, but, I need to get it off my chest
>>>
>>...
>>
>>>The EXPBUS is so highly recommended for the Egg Sub installation that to
>>>go another route requires factory approval or it may invalidate the
>>>warranty.
>>>
>>
>>Any idea whether Egg is in cahoots with Expbus? This kind of thing
>>makes me wonder. None the less, if Egg is honest, I think they would
>>recognize the robustness of the Aeroelectric inspired designs, and
>>approval should be easy.
>>
>>
>>>As far as I can make out, what the EXPBUS does for us is:
>>>1 Provide Master Electrical Switch
>>>2. Provide Alternator Field switch
>>>3. Continuously monitors both batteries and picks the one with the
>>>greatest output - so giving automatic switching between batteries.
>>>4. Monitors high and low voltage situations
>>>5. Provides warm up circuits for lamps
>>>6. Provides fused supplies at various rates 3 amp, 5 amp, 7 amp, 9 amp,
>>>11 amp.
>>>7. Protects avionics at start up
>>>8. Provide Keep Alive circuits
>>>
>>I kind of liken this list of capabilities to Sears selling a machine that
>>washes clothes, dishes, is a cd player and cooks for you you. And,
>>you have to pay more because all of the capabilities are installed in
>>one box (for 'convenience'). Those are all things that we like to have
>>(maybe even need), but it may be inconvenient and impractical (and
>>maybe less safe) to have them all located in the kitchen. It really
>>doesn't make sense to pay extra for them either.
>>
>>If you think about the above list, its pretty short.
>>
>>>There is a lot that the EXPBUS does not do and all of that is explained
>>>very well in the Installation Manual. I just wish that someone could
>>>lead me by the hand to circuits designs and components that would
>>>replace the EXPBUS.
>>>
>>>What the EXPBUS does not do, (quoting from the Eggenfellner Manual) is :
>>>
>>>"Although the EXPBUS provides the majority of your secondary circuit
>>>protection, several conventional circuit breakers and fuses will be
>>>required to complete your installation. These should be Klixon, Potter &
>>>Brumfield, or equivalent button type breakers."
>>>
>>>Additional circuit breakers include:
>>>1. 60A - Main Battery to EXPBUS (May also use an ANL-Type fuse if
>>>desired) 2. 50A - Alternator to EXPBUS
>>>3. 20A - Aux Battery to Bus Master switch
>>>4. 10A - Starter Solenoid and Optional Cabin Heater
>>>5. 10A - Optional Pitot Heater and/or Optional Cabin Heater
>>>Additional fuses include:
>>>1. 10A - ATO Type - Main Fuel Pump
>>>2. 10A - ATO Type - Aux Fuel Pump
>>>3. 5A - ATO Type - Auto-Failover circuit and additional critical
>>>equipment. 4. 3A - ATO Type - Backup Gyro
>>>
>>If you duplicated a few of the items on the not-included list (add a
>>couple of
>>breakers/fuses for other electricals in the airplane), you would have to
>>add only
>>a couple of extra components (a few switches, a couple of
>>contactors, a diode
>>bridge, some heat-shrink) to completely replace the ExpBus with a more
>>modular, custom designed system. I suspect that in the end, you
>>are going to
>>end up spending enough time studying your electrical system that you would
>>have been able to understand it without the Expbus. At that point, if you
>>have
>>some kind of anomally, you have a clue about where it might be
>>coming from.
>>Hmm....
>>
>>>from
>>>Huw & Rachel Williams
>>>huwrachel@earthlink.net
>>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Matt Prather
>>
>>
>
>
Message 17
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips <ripsteel@edge.net>
FWIW, the primary and MOST SIGNIFICANT reason to roll your own electrical system,
preferably utilizing the long and hard learned lessons offered by Bob
Nuckolls, is simply this: If you build it yourself, you must understand
what you are doing, and you will be intimately familiar with the thing
in its entirety. Therefore, if for some reason it DOESN'T perform as
expected, takes a crap in the least desirable of times and places, or
wants modifying at a later date, you, its creator, will be fully capable
of dealing with it. If something on that board decides to go south and
you are in East Bumflock, what are your alternatives?
From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips RV-6A - "almost" ready to order wires & stuff...
>
> Sorry, this is a long post, but, I need to get it off my chest somewhere,
> and this seems like the best place.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Starter solenoid |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
I think I must be missing something about the starter
solenoid. After reading about it in the Connection and
on the emails the only reason I have read not to use it
is that it is hard on the starter switch.
Would it not be easier just to get a better switch that
can handle this? I have a lucas keyswitch on one
machine that easily have 10000 start cycles on it
from 35 years of use.
Also there is about 20 different pieces of machinery
around here and none of them have starter contactors
except for a 30 year old ford dumptruck and another
large motor with a 24 volt starter with a series parallel
contactor (12 volt system with 24 volt starter)
There is the question of the starter sticking but that
can be taken care of by shutting of the master switch.
Is the problem something to do with running all that
power through the main buss??
I will be hooking up the starter soon like what Michel
just talked about. It is a little bitty subaru starter.
Got me wondering anyway
Thanks
Jim Pollard
Merlin Ont
ch601hds
ea-81
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Starter solenoid |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
What I'm thinking about Jim is to reduce the size of
one fuse from the battery bus (in the back). Bob
advises that the circuits from the BBus should be of
5A or less.
Since I use an ignition key, I have one circuit that
will drive the ignition 1 as well as the starter
solenoid.
One of my friends who use an ignition key in the same
way determined that he needed a 10A fuse to accomodate
the starting of the engine and the ignition together.
Using the contactor will enable reducing this fuse
to a 5A one.
It will also simplify the wiring to the starter in the
engine compartment. My batteries are in the back and
the alternator B-Lead is to be connected to the
starter (where the battery cables reach in the front).
With the "Start" wire, that makes three wires going
to the front of the engine. The contactor will enable
routing a single wire (4AWG in my case) instead of the
three.
Michel
--- Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim and
> Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
>
> I think I must be missing something about the
> starter
> solenoid. After reading about it in the Connection
> and
> on the emails the only reason I have read not to use
> it
> is that it is hard on the starter switch.
>
> Would it not be easier just to get a better switch
> that
> can handle this? I have a lucas keyswitch on one
> machine that easily have 10000 start cycles on it
> from 35 years of use.
> Also there is about 20 different pieces of machinery
> around here and none of them have starter contactors
> except for a 30 year old ford dumptruck and another
> large motor with a 24 volt starter with a series
> parallel
> contactor (12 volt system with 24 volt starter)
>
> There is the question of the starter sticking but
> that
> can be taken care of by shutting of the master
> switch.
>
> Is the problem something to do with running all that
> power through the main buss??
>
> I will be hooking up the starter soon like what
> Michel
> just talked about. It is a little bitty subaru
> starter.
>
> Got me wondering anyway
>
> Thanks
>
> Jim Pollard
> Merlin Ont
> ch601hds
> ea-81
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
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