Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:48 AM - Re: EXPBUS (James E. Clark)
2. 06:07 AM - (Gary Casey)
3. 06:29 AM - Wire gage (cecilth@juno.com)
4. 06:53 AM - Re: Wire gage (John Schroeder)
5. 07:07 AM - Re: EXPBUS (William Yamokoski)
6. 07:19 AM - Re: Starter solenoid (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:01 AM - Re: Wire gage (Werner Schneider)
8. 08:15 AM - Re: oxygen tank valve actuator (Steve Richard)
9. 10:21 AM - Re: Wire gage (N823ms@aol.com)
10. 10:41 AM - Re: Starter solenoid (Wayne Sweet)
11. 11:58 AM - Figure Z-14 and crossfeed contactor location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 02:49 PM - Re: Wire gage (John Schroeder)
13. 02:56 PM - New Drawings for Dual Electrical (Walter Casey)
14. 05:24 PM - Re: EXPBUS (Miller Robert)
15. 06:12 PM - Re: Xfeed switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 06:31 PM - Re: Fw: Wiring Plan et al (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 06:32 PM - Re: Oxygen bottle electrics (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 06:35 PM - Feild Breaker/ Switch Selection/ Nav/Pos Hookup (Don Boardman)
19. 06:38 PM - Re: EXPBUS and Eggenfellner (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 07:05 PM - Re: Re: Oxygen bottle electrics (LRE2@aol.com)
21. 08:18 PM - Re: Re: Oxygen bottle electrics (Steve Richard)
22. 08:30 PM - Re: Feild Breaker/ Switch Selection/ (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 08:58 PM - Fuselinks for main bus and e-Bus? (Michel Therrien)
24. 09:42 PM - Re: Re: Oxygen bottle electrics (LRE2@aol.com)
25. 10:59 PM - Re: Re: Oxygen bottle electrics (DHPHKH@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <jclark@conterra.com>
Good post. I, for one, applaud your response.
Comments below.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Matt
> Prather
> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 9:31 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXPBUS
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Prather <mprather@spro.net>
>
> I would wonder because it was stated that Eggenfellner might not
> honor the warrantee on their product should it be installed without
> the purchase of companion products.
>
I don't know, but I would think they are trying to minimize the number of
variables at this point. There are probably a lot of people out there who
have never heard of this list or read Bob's book but who are thinking about
"tinkering" with the electrical design. This is what we do but I can see
them having some concern in the early days of a new engine project. The
Lycomings have had dozens of years for tinkering so people may not be as
concerned.
> None the less, I chose my wording poorly, and admit that for me to
> suggest that Control Vision or Eggenfellner might be involved in
> dishonest business dealings was foolish. I appologize for any angst I
> might have caused. Vendors of products designed for the custom
> aircraft market have enough roadblocks in the way of success and
> don't need people spreading baseless rumors or false accusations.
>
We all make such mistakes. You put it quite well and summed up my reason for
responding.
> I have heard good things of the Eggenfellner product and am personally
> excited about using a better engine than my old Continental. If these
> guys are doing it, good for them.
>
Yes.
> As for the Exp Bus product, I haven't been able to understand its merits,
> though that doesn't demonstrate that it doesn't have any.
>
> I still stand by the ideal of education for the custom builder.
> I think we
> as a group should well understand the ins and outs of the systems that
> we install and use. I believe that it contributes to operational
> safety. If,
> after developing a clear understanding of the requirements of the
> electrical
> system on our aircraft the benefits of a particular product stand out over
> its weaknesses, then buy it and install it.
>
Yes you are most correct. I "evaluated" the EXPBUS for use for a particular
situation and concluded it was fine for the chosen application. Maybe after
I have done "Z-14" (or thereabouts) I will conclude that I could have come
up with a better approach. I did though go in with eyes wide open and so far
have been happy.
James
> Regards,
>
> Matt Prather
> N34RD
>
>
> James E. Clark wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark"
> <jclark@conterra.com>
> >
> >Why would one wonder if they are in "cahoots"?
> >
> >I think we can discuss this without such implication.
> >
> >The EXPBUS was developed some time ago with a particular purpose in mind
> >from a particular design perspective. I think it serves the purposes the
> >designers intended. We may argue that those are not our purposes
> or that it
> >does not serve our purposes as well as a more recently (or thoroughly)
> >thought through design. That is not only fair but healthy to
> think through.
> >
> >It appears to me that the Eggenfellner people probably saw it as
> a tool that
> >would get them part the way there in a manner that they were comfortable
> >with for THEIR ENGINE INSTALLATION at the time they needed something.
> >
> >Now maybe if they had time, insight or money they could have
> gotten Bob (or
> >some wise soul from this list) to do a better design (and maybe
> some day, if
> >such is presented, they will adopt same) ... but they don't have to be in
> >"cahoots" to have used the EXPBUS.
> >
> >
> >James
> >
> >EXPBUS ...chosen for one RV project
> >AeroElectric Way ... chosen for another
> >
> >... different strokes for different projects
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> >>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Matt
> >>Prather
> >>Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 7:28 PM
> >>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> >>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXPBUS
> >>
> >>
> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather"
> >><mprather@spro.net>
> >>
> >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Huw & Rachel"
> >>><huwrachel@earthlink.net>
> >>>
> >>>Bob
> >>>
> >>>Sorry, this is a long post, but, I need to get it off my chest
> >>>
> >>...
> >>
> >>>The EXPBUS is so highly recommended for the Egg Sub
> installation that to
> >>>go another route requires factory approval or it may invalidate the
> >>>warranty.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Any idea whether Egg is in cahoots with Expbus? This kind of thing
> >>makes me wonder. None the less, if Egg is honest, I think they would
> >>recognize the robustness of the Aeroelectric inspired designs, and
> >>approval should be easy.
> >>
> >>
> >>>As far as I can make out, what the EXPBUS does for us is:
> >>>1 Provide Master Electrical Switch
> >>>2. Provide Alternator Field switch
> >>>3. Continuously monitors both batteries and picks the one with the
> >>>greatest output - so giving automatic switching between batteries.
> >>>4. Monitors high and low voltage situations
> >>>5. Provides warm up circuits for lamps
> >>>6. Provides fused supplies at various rates 3 amp, 5 amp, 7 amp, 9 amp,
> >>>11 amp.
> >>>7. Protects avionics at start up
> >>>8. Provide Keep Alive circuits
> >>>
> >>I kind of liken this list of capabilities to Sears selling a
> machine that
> >>washes clothes, dishes, is a cd player and cooks for you you. And,
> >>you have to pay more because all of the capabilities are installed in
> >>one box (for 'convenience'). Those are all things that we like to have
> >>(maybe even need), but it may be inconvenient and impractical (and
> >>maybe less safe) to have them all located in the kitchen. It really
> >>doesn't make sense to pay extra for them either.
> >>
> >>If you think about the above list, its pretty short.
> >>
> >>>There is a lot that the EXPBUS does not do and all of that is explained
> >>>very well in the Installation Manual. I just wish that someone could
> >>>lead me by the hand to circuits designs and components that would
> >>>replace the EXPBUS.
> >>>
> >>>What the EXPBUS does not do, (quoting from the Eggenfellner
> Manual) is :
> >>>
> >>>"Although the EXPBUS provides the majority of your secondary circuit
> >>>protection, several conventional circuit breakers and fuses will be
> >>>required to complete your installation. These should be
> Klixon, Potter &
> >>>Brumfield, or equivalent button type breakers."
> >>>
> >>>Additional circuit breakers include:
> >>>1. 60A - Main Battery to EXPBUS (May also use an
> ANL-Type fuse if
> >>>desired) 2. 50A - Alternator to EXPBUS
> >>>3. 20A - Aux Battery to Bus Master switch
> >>>4. 10A - Starter Solenoid and Optional Cabin Heater
> >>>5. 10A - Optional Pitot Heater and/or Optional Cabin Heater
> >>>Additional fuses include:
> >>>1. 10A - ATO Type - Main Fuel Pump
> >>>2. 10A - ATO Type - Aux Fuel Pump
> >>>3. 5A - ATO Type - Auto-Failover circuit and additional critical
> >>>equipment. 4. 3A - ATO Type - Backup Gyro
> >>>
> >>If you duplicated a few of the items on the not-included list (add a
> >>couple of
> >>breakers/fuses for other electricals in the airplane), you would have to
> >>add only
> >>a couple of extra components (a few switches, a couple of
> >>contactors, a diode
> >>bridge, some heat-shrink) to completely replace the ExpBus with a more
> >>modular, custom designed system. I suspect that in the end, you
> >>are going to
> >>end up spending enough time studying your electrical system
> that you would
> >>have been able to understand it without the Expbus. At that
> point, if you
> >>have
> >>some kind of anomally, you have a clue about where it might be
> >>coming from.
> >>Hmm....
> >>
> >>>from
> >>>Huw & Rachel Williams
> >>>huwrachel@earthlink.net
> >>>
> >>Regards,
> >>
> >>Matt Prather
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
<<I'm planning on mounting my oxygen tank in the rear of the plane. The
tank
has a simple lever actuated valve for opening and closing. I could run a
cable to open and close, but I would rather have it done electrically. I'm
looking for a solenoid with some special talents. I want it to stay in
position even if power is lost. Has anyone seen such a device? Any and all
suggestions taken.
Steve Richard
steve@oasissolutions.com>>
How about a door lock actuator from almost any late model car? They are
small electric motor powered devices that will go to either position and
stop. Much lighter than a solenoid that would have the same force and
travel.
Gary Casey
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com
I am purchasing wire to wire the panel of my RV6A. Am I correct that 95%
of the job can be done with 16 gage wire?
CH
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
I believe Bob said that 90% can be done with AWG 20.
John
2/11/2003 10:35:05 AM, cecilth@juno.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com
>
>
>I am purchasing wire to wire the panel of my RV6A. Am I correct that 95%
>of the job can be done with 16 gage wire?
>CH
>
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk@lmc.cc.mi.us>
Just wanted to add my two cents on this. I have a Glastar with the
Egfgenfellner package. I do not use the EXPBUS. It was quite easy to
adapt one of Bob's drawings to accomodate the all-electric,
fuel-injected engine's needs.
One of the goals that Jan Eggenfellner has espoused is to offer a very
complete package....something that really appealed to this novice. As
such, he sees an advantage to having all of his customers using the same
parts, be it electrical or plumbing or whatever. Makes his job of
supporting his customers less complicated. I haven't been a
particitant in his user's group for a while, but when I was there he
never discouraged the use of alternative electrical approaches. He just
re-iterated that he couldn't (and shouldn't) answer too many questions
on systems he didn't design. Maybe that has changed in the past few
weeks...I don't know.
As to the warranty, isn't just about every warranty filled with
loopholes if you alter the product in any way?
Bill Yamokoski
very happy with my non-EXPBUS Glastar
>>> huwrachel@earthlink.net 02/11/03 19:12 PM >>>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Huw & Rachel"
<huwrachel@earthlink.net>
>
>In a message dated 2/5/2003 4:20:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com writes:
>
> > Still, I'm leaning towards the EXPBUS - as it must be the simplest
and
most
> > well arranged system for the homebuilder. So - to all who has been
there,
> > done that: what's your experience/advice??
>>
> If for no other reasons:
>
> (1) The EXPbus may or may not have all the circuit features
> you need. What you see is what you get for now and
> in the future.
>
> (2) The EXPbus is warmed-over 1960's certifie-iron architecture.
>
> (3) For what the EXPbus costs, we can buy all the circuit
> protection, switches, terminals, wire, contactors and
> installation supplies to do any of the Z-figures or
> a variation thereof) and have money left over.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Bob
Sorry, this is a long post, but, I need to get it off my chest
somewhere,
and this seems like the best place.
I just wish I had the knowledge to put together an alternative to the
EXPBUS
using standard components.
For modern engines a continuous supply of electricity is necessary for
powered flight. We are installing an Eggenfellner Subaru in a Glastar
and
the package comes with a very comprehensive Installation Manual.
The EXPBUS is so highly recommended for the Egg Sub installation that to
go
another route requires factory approval or it may invalidate the
warranty.
As far as I can make out, what the EXPBUS does for us is:
1 Provide Master Electrical Switch
2. Provide Alternator Field switch
3. Continuously monitors both batteries and picks the one with the
greatest
output - so giving automatic switching between batteries.
4. Monitors high and low voltage situations
5. Provides warm up circuits for lamps
6. Provides fused supplies at various rates 3 amp, 5 amp, 7 amp, 9 amp,
11
amp.
7. Protects avionics at start up
8. Provide Keep Alive circuits
There is a lot that the EXPBUS does not do and all of that is explained
very
well in the Installation Manual. I just wish that someone could lead me
by
the hand to circuits designs and components that would replace the
EXPBUS.
What the EXPBUS does not do, (quoting from the Eggenfellner Manual) is :
"Although the EXPBUS provides the majority of your secondary circuit
protection, several conventional circuit breakers and fuses will be
required
to complete your installation. These should be Klixon, Potter &
Brumfield,
or equivalent button type breakers."
Additional circuit breakers include:
1. 60A - Main Battery to EXPBUS (May also use an ANL-Type fuse if
desired)
2. 50A - Alternator to EXPBUS
3. 20A - Aux Battery to Bus Master switch
4. 10A - Starter Solenoid and Optional Cabin Heater
5. 10A - Optional Pitot Heater and/or Optional Cabin Heater
Additional fuses include:
1. 10A - ATO Type - Main Fuel Pump
2. 10A - ATO Type - Aux Fuel Pump
3. 5A - ATO Type - Auto-Failover circuit and additional critical
equipment.
4. 3A - ATO Type - Backup Gyro
The 60A Main Battery circuit breaker is used to isolate the Main Battery
in
the event of a serious primary circuit short. Isolating the Main Battery
could potentially offer additional emergency flight time when running
off
the Aux Battery by engaging the Aux Boost switch to cross-connect the
two
batteries.
Fuses 1 through 4 are ATO Type fuses. These are common automotive
"blade"
type fuses and can share a quad fuse block. The purpose of the 10A Fuel
Pump fuses is to provide a protective device which will blow slightly
before
the EXPBUS protection (11A) will trip. This allows other equipment which
is
using the EXPBUS circuits to continue to operate in the event of a
shorted
fuel pump circuit. "
Any help would be much appreciated.
from
Huw & Rachel Williams
huwrachel@earthlink.net
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Starter solenoid |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:38 PM 2/11/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
>
>I think I must be missing something about the starter
>solenoid. After reading about it in the Connection and
>on the emails the only reason I have read not to use it
>is that it is hard on the starter switch.
>
>Would it not be easier just to get a better switch that
>can handle this? I have a lucas keyswitch on one
>machine that easily have 10000 start cycles on it
>from 35 years of use.
>Also there is about 20 different pieces of machinery
>around here and none of them have starter contactors
>except for a 30 year old ford dumptruck and another
>large motor with a 24 volt starter with a series parallel
>contactor (12 volt system with 24 volt starter.
>
>There is the question of the starter sticking but that
>can be taken care of by shutting of the master switch.
Not all starters use the two-stage engagement solenoid.
The only ones I am aware of offered to aviation are
the B&C and Skytec products . . . there are undoubtedly
others but some may not use this technology. In particular,
smaller starters using the inertial engagement (Bendix)
technique for the pinion gear has no particular need
of a robust solenoid.
>Is the problem something to do with running all that
>power through the main buss??
Close . . B&C suggests that wear and tear
on the pinion and ring gears is minimized by
providing the shortest, most energetic engagement
of the mechanisms as practical. The high inrush
current through the longer wires between
starter solenoid and push-button worked against
this . . .
A secondary consideration was that B&C wanted
their product to be a drop in replacement for
the Prestolite Pig starters that did not have
built in engagement solenoids.
Soooo . . . by jumpering the solenoid terminal
to the main power terminal, and suggesting
the use of an external starter contactor, both
conditions were satisfied.
PM motor starters CANNOT be configured by simple
jumpering Figure Z-22 in the 'Connection shows
how an externally wired "boost" relay can be used
to relieve the panel mounted controls of the high
inrush current while providing positive control
of the built in soleniod to prevent run-on engagement
of the pinion gear after the start button is released.
This same boost relay has been used with the B&C
starters to (1) eliminate the larger, external starter
contactor and (2) relieving the panel
mounted controls of the high inrush and (3) keeping
leadwires driving the solenoid short for best
engagement performance.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider@compuserve.com>
I would say 70% AWG22, 20% AWG20 (behind the panel)
Werner (still crimping)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire gage
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder
<jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
> I believe Bob said that 90% can be done with AWG 20.
>
> John
>
> 2/11/2003 10:35:05 AM, cecilth@juno.com wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com
> >
> >
> >I am purchasing wire to wire the panel of my RV6A. Am I correct that 95%
> >of the job can be done with 16 gage wire?
> >CH
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | oxygen tank valve actuator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Richard" <steve@oasissolutions.com>
MAC servo's, dual solenoids from McMasters, and a car lock. Thanks for all
the great ideas!
Steve Richard
steve@oasissolutions.com
Message 9
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
John:
I finally just begin to teach myself this turbocad until I acquire the
AutoCAD LT. Took a few diagrams, cut and pasted the external power section on
to Z-14. Seems to be OK. I am looking for the symbols that Bob had offered at
one time. Do you know where they are?
Ed Silvanic
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Starter solenoid |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Sweet" <wsweet@attbi.com>
I went through 3 standard Bendix starter solenoids in as many years. Don't
know why the gear was stripping, since the engine/prop and all the
accessories came off a Mooney M20B. Went to B&C stuff, starter, alternator,
regulator, battery; for the last 9 years no( meaning zero, natta) trouble
with any of the stuff. It spins my IO-360A1A every time, all the time.
Am I an unpaid supporter of B you bet. Oh, BTW, got the tip about
B his hangar is three
down from mine).
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter solenoid
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 11:38 PM 2/11/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
> >
> >I think I must be missing something about the starter
> >solenoid. After reading about it in the Connection and
> >on the emails the only reason I have read not to use it
> >is that it is hard on the starter switch.
> >
> >Would it not be easier just to get a better switch that
> >can handle this? I have a lucas keyswitch on one
> >machine that easily have 10000 start cycles on it
> >from 35 years of use.
> >Also there is about 20 different pieces of machinery
> >around here and none of them have starter contactors
> >except for a 30 year old ford dumptruck and another
> >large motor with a 24 volt starter with a series parallel
> >contactor (12 volt system with 24 volt starter.
> >
> >There is the question of the starter sticking but that
> >can be taken care of by shutting of the master switch.
>
> Not all starters use the two-stage engagement solenoid.
> The only ones I am aware of offered to aviation are
> the B&C and Skytec products . . . there are undoubtedly
> others but some may not use this technology. In particular,
> smaller starters using the inertial engagement (Bendix)
> technique for the pinion gear has no particular need
> of a robust solenoid.
>
>
> >Is the problem something to do with running all that
> >power through the main buss??
>
> Close . . B&C suggests that wear and tear
> on the pinion and ring gears is minimized by
> providing the shortest, most energetic engagement
> of the mechanisms as practical. The high inrush
> current through the longer wires between
> starter solenoid and push-button worked against
> this . . .
>
> A secondary consideration was that B&C wanted
> their product to be a drop in replacement for
> the Prestolite Pig starters that did not have
> built in engagement solenoids.
>
> Soooo . . . by jumpering the solenoid terminal
> to the main power terminal, and suggesting
> the use of an external starter contactor, both
> conditions were satisfied.
>
> PM motor starters CANNOT be configured by simple
> jumpering Figure Z-22 in the 'Connection shows
> how an externally wired "boost" relay can be used
> to relieve the panel mounted controls of the high
> inrush current while providing positive control
> of the built in soleniod to prevent run-on engagement
> of the pinion gear after the start button is released.
> This same boost relay has been used with the B&C
> starters to (1) eliminate the larger, external starter
> contactor and (2) relieving the panel
> mounted controls of the high inrush and (3) keeping
> leadwires driving the solenoid short for best
> engagement performance.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Figure Z-14 and crossfeed contactor location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Hi Bob: I'm not sure this is the place to try to contact you but I'll try
anyway. I'll also try signing up through the consulting web site.
bob.nuckolls@cox.net is a better address. nuckolls@aeroelectric.com is so
loaded with spam that my you are at risk of being missed. Also, I'll
suggest you join the aeroelectric-list on matronics.com . . . these
kinds of questions are best answered in an environment where lots of
folks can share in the discussions and solutions.
I attended your seminar in Racine, WI in the summer of 2001 and am building
a two alternator, two battery Lancair Super ES. My electrical system uses
your Fig Z-14 as a model. My main alternator is a 60 amp provided by
Continental on my IO-550 engine. The no. 2 alt is a B&C 20 amp. I'm also
using B&C voltage reg's, batt contactor, crossfeed contactor and starter
contactor, etc. The distance from the aft mounted batteries to the firewall
mounted starter contactor is 10.5 ft.
Understand
Questions:
1.Z-14 shows a 2AWG strap fro the Batt Contactor to the Crossfeed
Contactor, implying [I think] a short distance between the two. Question:
Given the distance between the battery cx and the firewall [10.5 ft] could
the crossfeed cx be installed on the firewall near the starter cx?
If your batteries are in the back, I'd recommend a 2AWG common
ground for batteries, and two 4AWG feeders from battery conactors
to the crossfeed contactor mounted on the FIREWALL.
2. If the answer to question 1 is no, the crossfeed contactor will be
installed near the battery contactors in the aft fuselage. Question: Would
AWG 2 flexible cables work just as well as straps to connect batt
contactors to crossfeed contactors?
Sure . . .
3. Z-14 shows a 10AWG cable connecting the aux battery connector the aux
alternator. Question: Given the 10.5 ft distance between the two would 2AWG
or 4 AWG cables be a better choice?
If the crossfeed contactor is on firewall, then aux altenrator
can feed the aux battery at the firewall too . . . 10AWG is fine.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Hi Ed -
Look on the CD ROM with MS Explorer and go to the folder: AutoCAD Drawings.
Select the symbols folder. Most all of the symbols he uses are in that folder as
.dwg files. Import them into a drawing as a block (Insert on the menu bar). They
are all to the same scale as his entire drawing catalog. There is also another
file of symbols in the drawings folder entitled: Symbols3.dwg. It is a series of
drawings, each containing one or more blocks. You can import them into a
drawing.
Good luck and I hope this helps.
John
2/12/2003 1:19:44 PM, N823ms@aol.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
>
>John:
>
> I finally just begin to teach myself this turbocad until I acquire the
>AutoCAD LT. Took a few diagrams, cut and pasted the external power section on
>to Z-14. Seems to be OK. I am looking for the symbols that Bob had offered at
>one time. Do you know where they are?
>
>
>Ed Silvanic
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | New Drawings for Dual Electrical |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Walter Casey <mikec@caseyspm.com>
I took Robert Nuckolls drawing Z-14 and redid it in Adobe Illustrator.
This should make it easier for some of you to print and edit the file.
You can access the PDF's at http://www.caseyspm.com/RV7A.html
Walter
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Miller Robert <rmiller3@earthlink.net>
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: To start with, how about sending me copies
of the
> pertinent pages from the manual so I can familiarize myself
> with any special requirements for this engine.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> 6936 Bainbridge Road
> Wichita, KS 67226-1008
Bob:
Would love to see a well-developed system that does not use the EXPBus for the
Eggenfellner
Subaru.
I intend to use this engine package, but have never gotten quite comfortable with
the
EXPBUS, in spite of the well-thought out circuit design given by Gary.
The redundancy presently built into the electrical system, as shown in the manual,
must be
retained....
(electrically dependent engine, after all).
The beautifully done installation manual can be downloaded from Jan's site.
I look forward to the possibility of a robust off-the-shelf electrical package
that does it
all., without the EXPBUS
Robert
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Xfeed switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>Bob:
>Im reading from the revision 10 of the aeroelectric connection.
>On your Z-14 wire diagram you show a S700-2-5 switch for the
>crossfeed/starter switch. It appears that this switch needs to go down
>for the cross feed and up for the starter. Is that right? Don't we want
>a switch that is off in the down position crossfeed on in the middle
>position and start in the full up spring loaded position? On page 17-10
>under duel Alt/duel Batt description you describe the crossfeed switch as
>a S700-2-50 switch. But that doesnt look like a spring loaded switch in
>the full up position according to fig11-14 pp11-18. What don't I
>understand and which switch is it? Thanks Tim
The cross-feed switch is supposed to be an S700-2-50
and will be fixed at next revision. Use terminals 4-5
to control crossfeed contactor, terminals 1-3 for
the starter contactor.
This gives you OFF-XFEED-START as the three positions
for the switch.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Wiring Plan et al |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>It appears the Carling S2-50 switch you provided has the terminals on the
>opposite side from what is shown on the Microswitch terminal numbering chart.
yes. see
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Carling_Micro/Carling_Micro.pdf
> Does the negative terminal on the D 25 rectifier module need to grounded?
no
> Is a 5A breaker adequate for the alternator field line?
yes
> Do you sell or recommend a particular breaker for this application?
B&C stocks miniature, pullable breakers which
are available from their website at
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X358218
> Any reason I should not use the solid state adjustable regulator
> (Transpo M5-130A) I already have?
nope . . .
> Are 1/4 watt diodes really adequate for protecting the
> starter and DC power switches from the corresponding contactors?
1/4W? 1N400x series are 1A devices MORE than capable
electrically but rather fragile mechanically. You
can see how we use the more robust 1N540x series
devices on our contactors at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/switch.html#s701-1
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-1l.jpg
>Must it be across the coil of the starter contactor or can it
>be across the battery and starter contacts on the key switch
>as the manufacturer's diagram shows?
If you use our starter contactor at :
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/switch.html#s702-1
the diode is already built in.
If you use another contactor, you need to add the diode
across the contactor's coil terminals. Putting it across
the switch contacts doesn't work as I explain and
demonstrate in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen bottle electrics |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:03 AM 2/12/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
>
><<I'm planning on mounting my oxygen tank in the rear of the plane. The
>tank
>has a simple lever actuated valve for opening and closing. I could run a
>cable to open and close, but I would rather have it done electrically. I'm
>looking for a solenoid with some special talents. I want it to stay in
>position even if power is lost. Has anyone seen such a device? Any and all
>suggestions taken.
>
>Steve Richard
>steve@oasissolutions.com>>
>
>How about a door lock actuator from almost any late model car? They are
>small electric motor powered devices that will go to either position and
>stop. Much lighter than a solenoid that would have the same force and
>travel.
>
>Gary Casey
Neat idea. I need to go look at those critters.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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| Subject: | Feild Breaker/ Switch Selection/ Nav/Pos Hookup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
Hi Bob,
A few questions if I may. ( All Electric on Budget )
1) I am happy to be using fuse blocks. So happy in fact, I would rather not
use the 5A breakers you call for in the Alt Field circuits. Why are they
necessary?
If I must use breakers I will probably mount them on the swing down panel I
am using to mounting the fuse blocks on. They could be re-set with a short
reach under the panel.
2) I have seen two ways to set up the Master switch. One using a 2-3 and one
using a 2-10 . Why is it an advantage to be able to turn on the BAT only in
the middle position? Does it hurt to have the Bat and ALT Field active when
you might just want to play with the Radios or GPS and the engine is not
running?
3) Speaking of playing with the GPS. Does it make any sense to put the
Electric Horizon and DG on a separate switch so that they are not spinning
up every time the Master is turned on and flight is not the intention.
4) I have the strobe/nav/position fixtures from Aeroflash. I see no reason
not to have the Nav and Position lights come on together, controlled by a
single toggle. Is there any problem using a single fuse and running a single
conductor from the switch out to the wingtips and connecting both lamp leads
to the conductor? Night flying is a rare occurrence and only for a short
time at the end of a trip. Loss of the Nav/Pos lights would be backed up by
the strobes and wig-wag Landing Taxi lights.
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner, Randy Bowers
AeroElectric Powered
Super Moose #130 M-14PF 400HP, MT-prop, Aerocet 3500 amphibs, Rome, NY
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: EXPBUS and Eggenfellner |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:06 AM 2/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Yamokoski"
><yamokosk@lmc.cc.mi.us>
>
>Just wanted to add my two cents on this. I have a Glastar with the
>Egfgenfellner package. I do not use the EXPBUS. It was quite easy to
>adapt one of Bob's drawings to accomodate the all-electric,
>fuel-injected engine's needs.
> One of the goals that Jan Eggenfellner has espoused is to offer a very
>complete package....something that really appealed to this novice. As
>such, he sees an advantage to having all of his customers using the same
>parts, be it electrical or plumbing or whatever. Makes his job of
>supporting his customers less complicated. I haven't been a
>particitant in his user's group for a while, but when I was there he
>never discouraged the use of alternative electrical approaches. He just
>re-iterated that he couldn't (and shouldn't) answer too many questions
>on systems he didn't design. Maybe that has changed in the past few
>weeks...I don't know.
> As to the warranty, isn't just about every warranty filled with
>loopholes if you alter the product in any way?
>Bill Yamokoski
>very happy with my non-EXPBUS Glastar
Bill, did you document your approach in a way
that's easy to share? I'd like to see what you
did and then perhaps add a figure to the 'Connection
that's unique to the needs of the Eggenfellner
system.
I've looked over his installation manual briefly . . .
mostly good stuff but I think we can help him out
a little here. Let's put our heads together and
see what the elegant solution looks like.
Anyone else out flying the Eggenfellner package
with a non-EXPBUS architecture?
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen bottle electrics |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: LRE2@aol.com
Steve,
You know there is a much simpler and more elegant solution to your
problem. Mountain High Oxygen Systems ( <A HREF="www.mtn-high.com">www.mtn-high.com
)offers very nice
panel mounted regulators, so that you can plumb your O2 bottle to the panel
where you have direct control over not only on/off, but also flow rates. The
plumbing is simple, they provide the parts and fittings, and you have a
proven system. Why try to reinvent the wheel? If you desire, you can even
set it up to refill without having to remove the O2 bottle. I have installed
such a system in my FEW Mustang, and am very happy with it. LRE
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen bottle electrics |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Richard" <steve@oasissolutions.com>
I always love simpler and elegant, but my wallet doesn't: The remote valve
alone is over $1,200 (vs. a standard valve: $375). [Unless I'm reading
their catalog wrong?]
Steve Richard
steve@oasissolutions.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
LRE2@aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Oxygen bottle electrics
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: LRE2@aol.com
Steve,
You know there is a much simpler and more elegant solution to your
problem. Mountain High Oxygen Systems ( <A
HREF="www.mtn-high.com">www.mtn-high.com )offers very nice
panel mounted regulators, so that you can plumb your O2 bottle to the panel
where you have direct control over not only on/off, but also flow rates. The
plumbing is simple, they provide the parts and fittings, and you have a
proven system. Why try to reinvent the wheel? If you desire, you can even
set it up to refill without having to remove the O2 bottle. I have
installed
such a system in my FEW Mustang, and am very happy with it. LRE
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Feild Breaker/ Switch Selection/ |
Nav/Pos Hookup
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:36 PM 2/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
>
>Hi Bob,
>A few questions if I may. ( All Electric on Budget )
>
>1) I am happy to be using fuse blocks. So happy in fact, I would rather not
>use the 5A breakers you call for in the Alt Field circuits. Why are they
>necessary?
because there are sometimes cases where the crowbar
ov module gets a nuisance trip
>If I must use breakers I will probably mount them on the swing down panel I
>am using to mounting the fuse blocks on. They could be re-set with a short
>reach under the panel.
>
>2) I have seen two ways to set up the Master switch. One using a 2-3 and one
>using a 2-10 . Why is it an advantage to be able to turn on the BAT only in
>the middle position? Does it hurt to have the Bat and ALT Field active when
>you might just want to play with the Radios or GPS and the engine is not
>running?
If you have a crowbar ov module, then you can have a pullable
breaker. If you have a pullable breaker, then you can disable
the alternator for battery only operations and use the
less expensive 2-3 . . . but the 2-10 progressive transfer
works good too.
>3) Speaking of playing with the GPS. Does it make any sense to put the
>Electric Horizon and DG on a separate switch so that they are not spinning
>up every time the Master is turned on and flight is not the intention.
Some folks have done that . . .
>4) I have the strobe/nav/position fixtures from Aeroflash. I see no reason
>not to have the Nav and Position lights come on together, controlled by a
>single toggle. Is there any problem using a single fuse and running a single
>conductor from the switch out to the wingtips and connecting both lamp leads
>to the conductor? Night flying is a rare occurrence and only for a short
>time at the end of a trip. Loss of the Nav/Pos lights would be backed up by
>the strobes and wig-wag Landing Taxi lights.
That would work.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Fuselinks for main bus and e-Bus? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Bob,
I reviewed my electrical diagram this evening with an
electronic technician who made me notice a few areas
of risk with my diagram. The same features can be
noticed on the Z-11 and Z-12 diagrams.
Should the wire between the contactor and the main bus
be protected via a fuselink or ANL?
Should the wire between the e-Bus and the e-Bus
Alternate Feed switch be protected (at the e-Bus end)?
In this particular case, he showed me that if the
wire was to hang free from the no.1 terminal of the
switch, I'd get a lot of current trying to go down the
path through the diode and the 16AWG wire. He also
told me that diodes can fail in both open and closed
position... so I can't rely on the diode to act like a
fuse.
Michel
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen bottle electrics |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: LRE2@aol.com
Give them a call, and discuss your needs. My catalogue shows the A34-2ip 2
1/4 remote regulator for $625.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Oxygen bottle electrics |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DHPHKH@aol.com
Gang,
I've replaced a lot of OEM and aftermarket PDL actuators. They've been a
prime target for OEM cost-cutting design efforts in recent years. Select
carefully if you're gonna depend on it for your O2 supply.
Dan Horton
(car business since '76)
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