Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:08 AM - Re: Nav lights, panel lights, strobe lights (Phil Birkelbach)
2. 07:55 AM - Re: Amp. Meter Shunt (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 08:16 AM - Re: Z-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:17 AM - Re: Nav lights, panel lights, strobe lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 08:23 AM - Re: Relay diode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:26 AM - Re: Mic wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:06 AM - Re: Amp. Meter Shunt (Tom & Cathy Ervin)
8. 09:36 AM - Re: Mic wiring (Dawson, Bill)
9. 09:52 AM - Re: Z-14 (N823ms@aol.com)
10. 10:00 AM - Nav lights, panel lights, strobe lights (BAKEROCB@aol.com)
11. 10:02 AM - Re: Z-14 (N823ms@aol.com)
12. 10:06 AM - Re: Mic wiring (Tom & Cathy Ervin)
13. 10:57 AM - Re: Mic wiring (Bill Hibbing)
14. 11:29 AM - Fw: To Bob and Ben from PS Engineering (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 12:42 PM - Re: Mic wiring (Benford2@aol.com)
16. 12:53 PM - Re: Mic wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 12:57 PM - Re: Mic wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 01:31 PM - Re: Mic wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 01:32 PM - Re: Fw: To Bob and Ben from PS Engineering (Benford2@aol.com)
20. 01:43 PM - Re: Mic wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 01:54 PM - Re: alternator upgrade (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 02:05 PM - Re: Z-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 02:14 PM - Re: fastons . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 02:51 PM - Odyssey PC625 Question (Jerry2DT@aol.com)
25. 03:04 PM - Re: Mic wiring (Walter Casey)
26. 03:59 PM - Re: Z-14 (Walter Casey)
27. 04:50 PM - JJN Current Limiters ()
28. 05:05 PM - PTT Wiring (Don Boardman)
29. 05:09 PM - Re: JJN Current Limiters ()
30. 06:26 PM - Re: Mic wiring (Dawson, Bill)
31. 08:04 PM - Re: Mic wiring (Walter Casey)
32. 09:39 PM - Re[2]: Z-14 (Freddie Freeloader)
33. 09:51 PM - Re: Re[2]: Z-14 (Larry Bowen)
34. 10:51 PM - Re: Fw: To Bob and Ben from PS Engineering (James E. Clark)
35. 10:56 PM - Re: Mic wiring (Tammy and Mike Salzman)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Nav lights, panel lights, strobe lights |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
There would be nothing wrong with using a single switch to control the three
circuits if you could find a three pole switch. Except of course the
obvious disadvantage of the switch being a single point of failure. You
discuss running the different wires from different busses into a single pole
on the switch and you do not want to do this. This would connect the two
circuits (and in your case busses) together. You want to keep the circuits
electrically separated from the buss all the way to the light. Otherwise
you get into the same fuse sizing problems as you have with any branch
circuit. This is why you would need a three pole switch.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston
RV-7 727WB (Reserved)
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Bernard" <billbernard@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Nav lights, panel lights, strobe lights
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Bernard"
<billbernard@worldnet.att.net>
>
> I was re-reading Bob's Aeroelectric Connection in preparation for
beginning the wiring project. The chapter on switches suggested that a 2-10
switch could be used to operate the strobes and nav lights, each on their
own circuit.
>
> Possibly taking this one step farther, would there be anything wrong with
wiring the circuit for the panel lights to the same terminals (on a 2-10
switch) as the nav lights? There would then be 3 circuits on the switch:
strobes, nav lights and panel lights.
>
> I can't think of a situation in which one would have the panel lights on
and not have the nav lights on as well. The panel lights will be on the
e-bus and the nav lights on the main bus. The circuits would be totally
separate, except for the switch. It strikes me that the switch should be
robust enough to handle the current flows and the only problem would be
finding a connector able to take two wires.
>
> Let me also add that the panel lights will be either 'on' or 'off'. I am
not planning on using a rheostat to control intensity. I rarely fly at night
anyway and usually the lights are fully bright anyway.
>
> Any thoughts on this scheme?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Bill
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Amp. Meter Shunt |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:14 PM 2/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin"
><tcervin@valkyrie.net>
>
> List, I have a 40 Amp. Meter and shunt from Vans for my RV6-A and
> will be running a 60 Amp. alternator. Can I still use my 40 amp. Shunt?
> Van's doesn't show a 60 Amp. Shunt available and I can seem
> to locate one.
B&C can sell you one. Call Todd at 316.283.8000
Bob . . .
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:29 PM 2/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
>
>Bob:
>
> Getting ready to order some switches/contactors etc. Looking at the
>Z-14, I believe you said that the starter/crossfeed switch is actually
>S700-2-50? After the Nashville seminar, I have decided to wait to install
>electronic ignition. They wanted $2800.00 for a Laser system. So I am going
>to take your advise and get the plane finished and in the air before I start
>adding the goodies. OK, is this the starter switch, S700-2-50? And now that I
>am going to run MAGS for a while, can I still use the old Jurassic switch,
>i.e. LT RT Both Start?
If you plane to add electronic ignition later, ditch the mag
switch and install toggles a-la
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Switches.pdf
This way, when you're ready to sub an electronic system
for a mag, the switch to handle either electronic -OR-
mag is already in place . . . I'd also suggest you take
a good look at Electroair and/or Lightspeed before you
pop for a 2.8 killobux piece of hardware that has
been holy-watered.
> Or do I use both and just disregard the start
>terminal on the old switch type? If I understand this S700-2-50, it allows me
>to start the engine and crossfeed over should the main ALT drop off.
The 2-50 does is used under three conditions. (1) one alternator
is dead and you CHOOSE to tie the lame side to the good side so
as to maximized number of electro-whizzies you can run (2) tie
to batteries together for cranking and (3) initiate the cranking
sequence by moving the switch to its spring-loaded, full
up position.
> This is
>a manual operation no relay cross over, right? To understand this diagram let
>see now. To start the engine I would use the S700-2-50. This essentially ties
>the batteries together for a greater amp start. The old fashion LT/RT/Both
>switch would be on both?
No, on Left (or magneto that has impulse coupler) . . . this is what
the jumper bar is for on the mag switch . . . it disables the right
mag during cranking . . . but if you have a light weight starter
that cranks the engine real well, using the key-switch is a good way
to break a starter casting with a kickback. Wiring you ignition
systems with toggles using the right-mag-on starter lockout feature
eliminates this possibility, saves you lots of money, saves panel
space, and sets you up for what ever mix and match of mags and
electronic ignitions you want to run.
> Once on line, I can turn on the MAIN/AUX BUSSES
>switches. Then turn on other items, i.e. radios, lights or what ever. OH yes
>I believe I would also turn a fuel pump on which is on the Main Bat BUS. With
>fuel injection, it will have high/low positions. What do you recommend for
>this? An ON-OFF-ON switch.
A 2-10 would let you wire for OFF-LOW-HIGH
> Do I give the engine a shot of high fuel pressure
>prior to start or install a primer switch?
Most fuel injected engines prime with the main fuel
delivery path and don't use a primer system.
> I will be tying in an external
>power receptacle, what is the stock number of the Ground power contactor?
Aircraft spruce sells it as the "Piper style" ground
power jack. It's really a Cole-Hersee over-the road
truck accessory. You may be able to find one locally
as a CH p/n 11041 socket and you'll want to order a
mating 11042 plug to put on the end of your own
set of jumper cables.
Recommend you modify socket per
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
> And
>should the GRD PWR CTR be a 2A or 5A C/B?
Either is okay . . .
> Speaking of C/B's, you mentioned at
>the seminar that if there was a need for any of these critters it would be on
>the "F" or "B" side of the ALTs'? If so, what would be the right CB for the
>60/20amp Alternators, stock#,? I know this is a lot but I am getting ready to
>order some parts.
Alternator field c/b is 5A. B&C p/n CB5
> I have a 20 fuse block = Main Bus, 10 fuse block = Aux Bus,
>and (2) 6 fuse boxes for the batteries respectively. Is this OK or should I
>upgrade the AUX Bus to 20 and the batteries to 10? As soon as I get an
>answer, I believe I'll have an order for you.
Your order will go to B&C . . . I don't have a parts
business here any more . . . it exploded and became a
third full-time job and we sold it off to B&C a couple
of years ago. You'll not that their name and particulars
are at the top of the order form on our website. Things
that are not on the aeroelectric catalog will be on the
B&C catalog at www.BandC.biz
Have you made a list of things you're going to install
in your airplane and from which bus they'll be powered?
Once this list is made, order fuse blocks that will have
3-5 spare slots for future expansion.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Nav lights, panel lights, strobe lights |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:41 PM 2/14/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Bernard"
><billbernard@worldnet.att.net>
>
>I was re-reading Bob's Aeroelectric Connection in preparation for
>beginning the wiring project. The chapter on switches suggested that a
>2-10 switch could be used to operate the strobes and nav lights, each on
>their own circuit.
>
>Possibly taking this one step farther, would there be anything wrong with
>wiring the circuit for the panel lights to the same terminals (on a 2-10
>switch) as the nav lights? There would then be 3 circuits on the switch:
>strobes, nav lights and panel lights.
>
>I can't think of a situation in which one would have the panel lights on
>and not have the nav lights on as well. The panel lights will be on the
>e-bus and the nav lights on the main bus. The circuits would be totally
>separate, except for the switch. It strikes me that the switch should be
>robust enough to handle the current flows and the only problem would be
>finding a connector able to take two wires.
>
>Let me also add that the panel lights will be either 'on' or 'off'. I am
>not planning on using a rheostat to control intensity. I rarely fly at
>night anyway and usually the lights are fully bright anyway.
>
>Any thoughts on this scheme?
Unless you're really hurting for panel space, why use one expensive
switch to do the job that two cheap ones will do? And why put more
than one system at risk of mechanical failure of a single switch?
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:04 PM 2/14/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@qcpi.com>
>
>On a starter relay one of the small studs does nothing. So does this mean
>that the diode goes from the "active" stud to ground?
Use our S702-1 starter contactor and the diode is already
built in. With others, the diode cathode (band) goes
to the "S" terminal, other end to base (ground).\
Bob . . .
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:13 PM 2/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder
><jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>Bob -
>
>I was told by an avionics supplier that PS Engineering makes the
>audio/intercomm
>boxes for Garmin and UPS. The rationale is that they couldn't do it any
>better
>or cheaper. Is this true?
Probably . . . a company that does a high volume of audio
specialty components can probably do a better job for less
money that one that butters their bread with high-dollar,
lower volume nav or communications equipment.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Amp. Meter Shunt |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
Thanks, Bob.
Do Not Archive Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Amp. Meter Shunt
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 06:14 PM 2/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin"
> ><tcervin@valkyrie.net>
> >
> > List, I have a 40 Amp. Meter and shunt from Vans for my RV6-A and
> > will be running a 60 Amp. alternator. Can I still use my 40 amp. Shunt?
> > Van's doesn't show a 60 Amp. Shunt available and I can seem
> > to locate one.
>
> B&C can sell you one. Call Todd at 316.283.8000
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dawson, Bill" <Bill.Dawson@pepperdine.edu>
I also bought a PS Engineering intercom. I was told it needed to be
installed at and PS approved avionics shop. There was NO warranty if I
installed it myself. I won't be buying one from them again.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mic wiring
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>I have had a debate with the guy at PS Engineering when I wired my
plane last
>month. He insisted I use a shielded wire on all the PTT circuits and
then
>told me now that I have purchased my PS1000 ll I needed to have them
make up
>a harness and buy it from them for $ 235.00 US, Thats what the unit
almost
>cost. And, there is NO warranty unless I do. Now why in the world
would one
>need a shielded wire on a circuit like that ?????? I sure hope the
>intercom is better then their [clever] marketing scheme. Ben Haas
N801BH.
I would avoid PS engineering and send them a letter
telling them why. If their product is at-risk for
warranty issues because of mis-wiring, then they've
not done their homework . . . this puts all other
issues of their engineering and marketing integrity
in doubt.
I would bet that this is simply a marketing ploy
to sell more stuff. . . . they should be ashamed.
To do my part, I have copied PS Engineering on this
reply.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
John:
That was great. I just found out my alternator on the engine is a Ford
Motorcraft. My question to the company was:"Do I have an alternator or
generator?" I have know idea if this is a good alternator or not. I know that
Chrysler alternators are made by Bosch. I have decided to go with mags for a
while and then go to a one side electronic ignition. Never could get the Jeff
Rose Info on the web.
Thanks again,
ED
Message 10
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| Subject: | Nav lights, panel lights, strobe lights |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com
In a message dated 02/15/2003 3:06:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
<< AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "William Bernard"
<billbernard@worldnet.att.net>......skip....... I rarely fly at night anyway
and usually the lights are fully bright anyway. Any thoughts on this scheme?
Thanks in advance. Bill>>
2/15/2003
Hello Bill, Flying with bright internal lights in the cockpit goes a long way
towards destroying ones ability to better see what is outside in relatiive
darkness. The lower one can keep the internal illumination the better one can
see outside.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
In a message dated 02/15/2003 10:16:43 AM Central Standard Time,
bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
> Have you made a list of things you're going to install
> in your airplane and from which bus they'll be powered?
>
> Once this list is made, order fuse blocks that will have
> 3-5 spare slots for future expansion.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Thanks for your reply and the homework.
ED Silvanic
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
Stark Avionics wired a PMA4000 into my Radio Stack purchased from them and I
didn't notice any special wiring technique used by Stark?
I did have a hard time getting PS Engineering to send me the required
face plate to install the PMA 4000 in a 2 1/4" panel hole. I reminded them
that since the PMA4000 is made for the experimental market and not STC'd who
did they expect would be installing there product! After a lot of
conversation and $28.00 for a ($2.50 Face Plate) they agreed to break their
rules and sell me the part direct.
Bob is right "Marketing Ploy" to be sure.
Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dawson, Bill" <Bill.Dawson@pepperdine.edu>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Mic wiring
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dawson, Bill"
<Bill.Dawson@pepperdine.edu>
>
> I also bought a PS Engineering intercom. I was told it needed to be
> installed at and PS approved avionics shop. There was NO warranty if I
> installed it myself. I won't be buying one from them again.
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mic wiring
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
> >I have had a debate with the guy at PS Engineering when I wired my
> plane last
> >month. He insisted I use a shielded wire on all the PTT circuits and
> then
> >told me now that I have purchased my PS1000 ll I needed to have them
> make up
> >a harness and buy it from them for $ 235.00 US, Thats what the unit
> almost
> >cost. And, there is NO warranty unless I do. Now why in the world
> would one
> >need a shielded wire on a circuit like that ?????? I sure hope the
> >intercom is better then their [clever] marketing scheme. Ben Haas
> N801BH.
>
>
> I would avoid PS engineering and send them a letter
> telling them why. If their product is at-risk for
> warranty issues because of mis-wiring, then they've
> not done their homework . . . this puts all other
> issues of their engineering and marketing integrity
> in doubt.
>
> I would bet that this is simply a marketing ploy
> to sell more stuff. . . . they should be ashamed.
> To do my part, I have copied PS Engineering on this
> reply.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
Just my $.02 worth. I bought a PS Engineeering 1000II from an airplane
"junk yard" (Arkansas Airframe) for a bit less than half the new price. PS
puts their user manual and wiring diagram on their web site so I printed
that up and wired everything by the manual. Nice thing about buying a used
unit is that there were wires already attached and all I had to do was
determine which wire was attached to which pin. I powered things up as I
got them attached (no smoke) and everything worked OK. In PS defense I have
to say that I was able to get answers from their support people when I had a
question with no problem. Buying used might be a consideration. Happy
building.
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
Message 14
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| Subject: | Fwd: To Bob and Ben from PS Engineering |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>From: PSENGINE@aol.com
>Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:39:17 EST
>Subject: To Bob and Ben from PS Engineering
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>CC: bob.nuckolls@cox.net
>X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10634
>
>I am not sure if this is the correct way of sending an email response, but I
>hope that this does put it in the public forum. If not, I am cc Bob so that
>he can post my response on the Matronics bulletin board.
>
>First, thank you Bob for sending me the email, unless I know someone has
>taken offense, or misinterprets what has been said, I simply can't address
>those issues.
Which is why I forwarded the note to you. I've been in
similar situations as a supplier to the aircraft industry and
I know how frustrating it is to be the subject of a tense
conversation and not be aware of what's going on or the circumstances
that generated it.
>On the technical side, I never said that the PTT wire has to be shielded (in
>fact, we don't supply this part of the harness, rather the customer has to
>wire this part up). What I did say was that the PTT wire has to go to the
>appropriate mic jack. i.e.; the Pilot PTT has to go to the Pilot mic jack,
>etc. It does not have to be shielded, sorry for the misunderstanding.
A VERY frequently asked question on the AeroElectric-List is "what
do I do with shields?" Participants on the list have cited the
full gamut of myths and mis-information that circulate in the
wild. You and I know that shields can be used effectively for
more that one task and that system design dictates the requirement.
It follows therefore that instructions which accompany any product
should be explicit in the use and termination of shielded wires.
My first answer to this question is, "Follow the manufacturer's
instructions." Now, if one understands how the system works
and is prepared to make considered changes, fine . . .
go ahead but assume the risks. I presume that
instructions shipped with your products show the details
of what you guarantee will be a great performing installation.
So, your easy answer is always, "follow the instructions." When
someone asks about variations, the response is just as easy,
"That may work just fine but I've not tested it and don't
guarantee it."
>We offer custom made wire harnesses as a service. The reason? If the harness
>is not made correctly, the customer will end up with a sub-par installation,
>making our hardware look bad.
>
>It is not a profit center for PS Engineering, it is a service. If you think
>our harness pricing is too high, you can always have an authorized PS
>Engineering dealer make the harness, assuring the warranty remains intact.
If one interprets these words literally, then are there warranty
issues that are affected by improper wiring? What kinds of errors
in wiring would produce a situation in your product that falls under
misuse, abuse or neglect? How does selling a black box sans harness
open you up to any more risk than if you sold it without a harness?
>I could agree with you that it may be a marketing tactic, but in different
>terms as you indicated.
>
>The majority of our sales are by word of mouth. If someone builds a harness
>incorrectly, the intercom will not perform as it is designed. The next thing
>that happens is that the hardware is blamed, while in fact, it's the
>installation.
Fair enough. I too offer pre-wired, color coded harnesses
for avionics I supply and most folks do buy the harness when
they buy the radio. I suggest it's fair to tell a customer that
x-percent of post installation problems are the result of
harness errors and that these pitfalls can be avoided by
ordering the harness from us. However, to use the word "warranty"
in a sentence suggesting that they also buy my harness is
disingenuous.
>Short of not selling our intercoms from over the counter companies such as
>Chief, Gulf Coast, or Eastern to name a few, we decided to honor our warranty
>if the customer buys the harness from either us or from and authorized PS
>Engineering dealer.
If it is your corporate position that the intercom is sold
to the OBAM industry only as a complete kit with harness,
then it should be advertised as such with the total price
of the product and a list of customers to whom special
pricing applies clearly stated in the catalog. To lure a customer
in on what appears to be a competitive price for a good
product and then tell him the warranty is no good unless
they order the harness too is an unmitigated bait-and-switch
tactic.
>Not to sound boastful, I think you will find that this "marketing"
>arrangement has worked well for us. Rarely will you find someone who is not
>totally satisfied with our products.
>
>I contend this is because we have made every effort to assure that the
>harness is made correctly.
>
>As far as price, we think we have priced it fairly. Considering it takes
>between 3 to 4 hours to build one harness, and including the materials, I
>personally think it is a bargain.
Satisfaction and pricing are not the issues. PS Engineering has
an excellent reputation for product performance and
value after it's bolted to the airplane. The issue
is what you've implied: That every owner built and
maintained aircraft customer who approaches PS
Engineering for information and possible purchase
of products is automatically considered sub-standard
in terms of fabrication and installation skills. Further,
this presumed shortfall will cost them more for the
pleasure of acquiring your product.
OBAM aircraft are now the majority of the modern
fleet. With certified ships disappearing from the
registry to the tune of thousands per year and
OBAM aircraft outpacing production aircraft, they
will soon become the majority of the GA fleet.
It's our job at the AeroElectric Connection and on
the Aero-Electric List to provide a platform for
elevating the knowledge and skills of those who
choose to fabricate what are demonstrably the finest
aircraft ever built. A large number of builders
are quite capable of producing a satisfactory
harness for any piece of avionics including yours.
Those who lack the skills are generally aware
of it and happily take advantage of any assistance
you or I can provide in the way of a pre-fabricated
harness.
But I also recognize (and I hope PS Engineering
does too) that the future of small aircraft
in GA now resides in people's basements and
garages. We need to properly evaluate this market
both for it's potential -AND- shortcomings.
What ever we can to smooth over the rough
places is good business.
To me, this means offer the harness, explain
the advantages but don't insult the customer
by implying that they're not capable of building
an adequate harness. And certainly, don't add
injury to insult by suggesting that if they
do built their own harness that warranty
of the product is at risk.
>I hope my explanation on our policy will help clear up this matter. We are
>not ashamed of ourselves for selling harnesses, we are proud of the fact that
>the vast majority of posts on the Internet have always been very favorable on
>our products, service and support.
>
>Sincerely,
>Mark Scheuer
>PS Engineering, Inc.
>mscheuer@ps-engineering.com
>www.ps-engineering.com
I've worked in holy-watered aviation for over
40 years. I've had the pleasure of working in
OBAM aviation for 16 years. I know that the
quality, service and value of PS Engineering
products have been outstanding for a long time.
I'm suggesting that you've got a new breed
of customer that needs to be treated with respect
for their willingness to take on a monumental
task. If we're going to hitch our wagons to this
new rising star in aviation, we should offer
every bit of assistance that we can with clear
and concise explanations of customer assumed
risk and risks we're willing to take as suppliers.
I've had a number of my products come back smelling
bad and in every case, the customer knew he'd
paid some expensive "tuition" for his education.
I will suggest that our businesses will benefit
far more from concise but helpful explanation to
customers followed up with products of good
performance and value than from the exercise
of arbitrary and capricious "policy".
Bob . . .
Message 15
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 2/15/2003 10:37:58 AM Mountain Standard Time,
Bill.Dawson@pepperdine.edu writes:
>
> I also bought a PS Engineering intercom. I was told it needed to be
> installed at and PS approved avionics shop. There was NO warranty if I
> installed it myself. I won't be buying one from them again.
>
>
No where in any of their literature does it say their stuff HAS to be
installed by a approved shop to mantain warranty. Only after the sale does
this come up. Here in Wyoming bait and switch is illegal, We don't call the
BBB just the BB. BB = bear bait.<g>. I can assure ya, if mine is defective
or does not work as advertised PS Engineering will wish they they never heard
of me. If word of mouth can sink a ship these guys better put on theit
lifejackets. Ben Haas
Message 16
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:55 PM 2/15/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
>
>Just my $.02 worth. I bought a PS Engineeering 1000II from an airplane
>"junk yard" (Arkansas Airframe) for a bit less than half the new price. PS
>puts their user manual and wiring diagram on their web site so I printed
>that up and wired everything by the manual. Nice thing about buying a used
>unit is that there were wires already attached and all I had to do was
>determine which wire was attached to which pin. I powered things up as I
>got them attached (no smoke) and everything worked OK. In PS defense I have
>to say that I was able to get answers from their support people when I had a
>question with no problem. Buying used might be a consideration. Happy
>building.
>Bill
>Glasair SIIS-FT
Interesting point. The few times that I've talked
with folks there, they've been very helpful for
me also. I suspect the current commotion will be
smoothly resolved with a tad bit more attention
to communication.
Bob . . .
Message 17
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:05 PM 2/15/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin"
><tcervin@valkyrie.net>
>
>Stark Avionics wired a PMA4000 into my Radio Stack purchased from them and I
>didn't notice any special wiring technique used by Stark?
> I did have a hard time getting PS Engineering to send me the required
>face plate to install the PMA 4000 in a 2 1/4" panel hole. I reminded them
>that since the PMA4000 is made for the experimental market and not STC'd who
>did they expect would be installing there product! After a lot of
>conversation and $28.00 for a ($2.50 Face Plate) they agreed to break their
>rules and sell me the part direct.
> Bob is right "Marketing Ploy" to be sure.
Keep in mind that the faceplate they pulled off the shelf
to send to you was exactly the same faceplate that might
have made its way into the holy-watered airplane.
I've worked close enough to the aviation parts supply
chain to know that I want no part of the certified
side. The administrative, no-value-added costs of
selling even the simplest component are staggering.
It's a sure bet that their investment in that faceplate
was considerably more than an end-of-production-line
value of the part..
Bob . . .
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:35 AM 2/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dawson, Bill"
><Bill.Dawson@pepperdine.edu>
>
> I also bought a PS Engineering intercom. I was told it needed to be
>installed at and PS approved avionics shop. There was NO warranty if I
>installed it myself. I won't be buying one from them again.
>
>Bill
Sorry to hear that. I've forwarded a copy of your
note to PS Engineering.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: To Bob and Ben from PS Engineering |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 2/15/2003 12:30:29 PM Mountain Standard Time,
bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
>
>
> >On the technical side, I never said that the PTT wire has to be shielded
> (in
> >fact, we don't supply this part of the harness, rather the customer has to
> >wire this part up). What I did say was that the PTT wire has to go to the
> >appropriate mic jack. i.e.; the Pilot PTT has to go to the Pilot mic jack,
> >etc. It does not have to be shielded, sorry for the misunderstanding.
>
>
Mark is a Damn LAIR !!!!! HE told me HIMSELF that shielded wires were
required for the PTT circuit. IF you think I am blowing smoke < no pun
intended> go to their web site and look at the schematics for the PS1000 ll
and THEIR own drawing shows shielded wires on that circuit. He had me do this
because after I bought my unit and got it home and opened up the box there is
no wiring diagrams enclosed.
Thats when I called Mark and asked for one. His first answer was" See your
PS dealer". He hinted that I was not qualified to hook up his unit. This is
after I wired the King KMD150, Icom Comm radio, King KT76-A transponder,
Blind encoder, JPI 450 and all the rest of the general wiring in my 801
Zenith. This does not include the detailed engine documentation package I
have installed to monitor my Prototype All Aluminum V-8 Ford engine with the
potential for telemetry to downlink data for the first few hours of flight.
It seems kinda funny that the cheapest thing in my panel didn't come with
installation instructions because in Marks eyes homebuilders are dumb. I want
to thank Bob for all his time he spends with all of our questions. Ben Haas
N801BH. Jackson Hole Wyoming.
Thanks again Bob.
Message 20
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 03:40 PM 2/15/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 2/15/2003 10:37:58 AM Mountain Standard Time,
>Bill.Dawson@pepperdine.edu writes:
>
>
> >
> > I also bought a PS Engineering intercom. I was told it needed to be
> > installed at and PS approved avionics shop. There was NO warranty if I
> > installed it myself. I won't be buying one from them again.
> >
> >
>
> No where in any of their literature does it say their stuff HAS to be
>installed by a approved shop to mantain warranty. Only after the sale does
>this come up. Here in Wyoming bait and switch is illegal, We don't call the
>BBB just the BB. BB = bear bait.<g>. I can assure ya, if mine is defective
>or does not work as advertised PS Engineering will wish they they never heard
>of me. If word of mouth can sink a ship these guys better put on theit
>lifejackets. Ben Haas
Thank you for the feedback. Copy forwarded to PS Engineering
Bob . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: alternator upgrade |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>Now that I have few more dollars
>than a year ago maybe I will update to the B&C Aternator
>Assemmbly? 40 AMP?
Unless you have electric heat of some kind other
than pitot heat, a 40A machine should be adequate.
>Can I use a less expensive external regulator
>than B&C lists on their WebSite?
My wiring diagrams illustrate the use of an automotive
VR166 regulator combined with OV module and some
other form of LOW VOLTS warning. These three devices
will adequately replace the LR-3 alternator controller.
Bob . . .
Message 22
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:51 PM 2/15/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
>
>John:
>
> That was great. I just found out my alternator on the engine is a
> Ford
>Motorcraft. My question to the company was:"Do I have an alternator or
>generator?" I have know idea if this is a good alternator or not.
If the device is a long cylinder that is about 2 to 3 times
longer than its diameter, then it's a generator. Alternators
are always shorter . . . usually about the same length as
the diameter or sometimes quite a bit less length than diameter.
> I know that Chrysler alternators are made by Bosch.
Why not put the best one in the business on your airplane.
ND alternators are in great supply. ANY one you can find with
a pulley that will accept your belt will work. All you need
to do is fabricate a bracket to hold it to the engine
(use 1/4" thick material and good forming/welding lest
you suffer the Lycoming breaking brackets syndrome
of years gone by).
> I have decided to go with mags for a
>while and then go to a one side electronic ignition. Never could get the Jeff
>Rose Info on the web.
He doesn't have a website but a websearch turned up
his address and phone number in about 50 places. Check
out
http://exp-aircraft.com/vendors/electroa.html
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: fastons . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:12 PM 2/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks Bob. The Glasair wing is removable (not easy. but can be done). The
>Strip I'm talking about is a "junction box" for the wing wires to be mated
>to the Fues wiring. See attached.
Sheesh! I'd put AMP CPC connnectors in those wire bundles
before I'd but in a huge row of screw terminals on
barrier strips. Those long rows of screws give me the
willies . . . see:
http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.asp?FN=229.pdf
>Why do you recommend ring terminals for the positive side?
if they go to breakers, then you have to built a breaker
panel with bus bars that connect rows of breakers together.
This drives a design using threaded fasteners for the
bus bar to breaker interface . . . it follows that (+)
wires coming off the other breaker terminal would have
a ring terminal on it to mate with a threaded fastener.
Use fuseblocks and the whole breaker panel, bus-bars,
and threaded fasteners thing goes away with a savings
of mucho dollars and hours.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Odyssey PC625 Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
Bob or anybody...
I find myself the proud owner of 2 PC625's (It's a long story... :)) and I
have coming shortly a Superior XP-IO360 engine. Is one of these at 625
cranking amps sufficient for this engine or would I be better advised to go
the two battery route and switch them in parallel for cranking? Of course
this would add 13 lbs... Any and all opinions/facts are welcome.
Jerry Cochran
Wilsonville, OR
RV6a/70-90
Message 25
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Walter Casey <mikec@caseyspm.com>
I had PS engineering as a proposed part of my instrument panel. After
reading all the grief I am looking for an alternative. Any suggestions?
Walter
On Saturday, February 15, 2003, at 02:30 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 09:35 AM 2/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dawson, Bill"
>> <Bill.Dawson@pepperdine.edu>
>>
>> I also bought a PS Engineering intercom. I was told it needed to be
>> installed at and PS approved avionics shop. There was NO warranty if I
>> installed it myself. I won't be buying one from them again.
>>
>> Bill
>
>
> Sorry to hear that. I've forwarded a copy of your
> note to PS Engineering.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
Message 26
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Walter Casey <mikec@caseyspm.com>
Bob,
My RV7A will have a 200HP IO 360. I see that your recommended Engine
switch has three positions, Prime - Boost - Off.
I don't understand the difference between Prime and Boost?
Walter
> If you plane to add electronic ignition later, ditch the mag
> switch and install toggles a-la
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/Switches.pdf
Message 27
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| Subject: | JJN Current Limiters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
Bob,
I have 2 current limiters, a T-Tron JJN-70 and JJN-80 that I acquired some time
ago to protect the b-lead from the battery. Some time has passed and I can no
longer find the articles explaining the sizing of these devices.
I now have a 40 amp alternator and am wondering if either of these current limiters
is sized properly to protect the 40 amp alternator? Or would these be better
suited for a 60 amp alternator?
Thanks,
Ned
Message 28
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
Hi Bob,
1. My analysis concludes that the PTT switch takes the mic plug tip to
ground. In the wiring diagram for my PMA 4000 Audio Panel/Intercom (great
response to Mark Scheuer PS Engineering) it shows the PTT switch wire
connections at the mic jacks. Is there any reason the connections can't be
made at the other end of the shielded conductors .. at the intercom end? It
seems to me this would be a more convenient place to connect the PTT switch
leads.
2. My NavAid auto pilot recommends using a diode in series with the PTT
line from the com radio together with a wire connected from the PTT switch
to a pin on the unit. The connection grounds the pin when the PTT switch is
closed. This kills the signal to the servo while the PTT switch is
depressed. This prevents the servo from jumping around due to the presence
of high level RFI on the power lines. The servo stays engaged during the
voice transmission, but does not move until normal operation is restored by
releasing the mike button.
My question is basically a repeat of #1: Can this connection be made at the
intercom end of the wire on the hi side of the PTT.
Thanks in advance,
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner, Randy Bowers
AeroElectric wired.
Super Moose #130 M-14PF 400HP, MT-prop, Aerocet 3500 amphibs, Rome, NY
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: JJN Current Limiters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
I think I have found my answer in the archives. At least it says the 80 is
good for all alternators 60 amp and below. I still wonder if the 70 is good
for the 40 amp alternator.....
Archive:
Message: #1766 Date: Sep 03, 2001 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckolls@aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: Alternative B-lead fuse . . .
>
>I'm obviously missing something, here. But is a 40A current limiter
>equal to an 80A fuse?
Well, kinda sorta . . .
Recall that the 80A fuse is FAST and it was selected as
a good compromise for ALL alternators 60A and below.
The ANL series current limiters are like fusible links
and not subject to tripping out under small overloads
like the fuse.
I've just posted an article on the topic which you're
all welcome to read at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html
Bob . . .
----- Original Message -----
From: <315@cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: JJN Current Limiters
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
>
> Bob,
>
> I have 2 current limiters, a T-Tron JJN-70 and JJN-80 that I acquired some
time ago to protect the b-lead from the battery. Some time has passed and I
can no longer find the articles explaining the sizing of these devices.
>
> I now have a 40 amp alternator and am wondering if either of these current
limiters is sized properly to protect the 40 amp alternator? Or would these
be better suited for a 60 amp alternator?
>
> Thanks,
> Ned
>
>
Message 30
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dawson, Bill" <Bill.Dawson@pepperdine.edu>
I won't be buying one from them again.
>
>Bill
> Sorry to hear that. I've forwarded a copy of your
> note to PS Engineering.
>Bob . . .
Don't be sorry. I don't support companies that don't support me. Too bad
too, because I like their equipment.
Bill
Message 31
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Walter Casey <mikec@caseyspm.com>
This all seams strange since Van's sells the
AV PM 3000 4PL STEREO
on their www site.
Walter
> I won't be buying one from them again.
>>
>> Bill
>
>
>> Sorry to hear that. I've forwarded a copy of your
>> note to PS Engineering.
>
>> Bob . . .
>
>
> Don't be sorry. I don't support companies that don't support me. Too
> bad
> too, because I like their equipment.
>
> Bill
Message 32
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Freddie Freeloader <lists@stevet.net>
Hello Robert,
As for Jeff Rose, check out the following:
http://www.fly-gbi.com/eis.htm
Saturday, February 15, 2003, 2:04:21 PM, you wrote:
>> I have decided to go with mags for a
>>while and then go to a one side electronic ignition. Never could get the Jeff
>>Rose Info on the web.
RLNI> He doesn't have a website but a websearch turned up
RLNI> his address and phone number in about 50 places. Check
RLNI> out
RLNI> http://exp-aircraft.com/vendors/electroa.html
RLNI> Bob . . .
--
Best regards,
Freddie mailto:lists@stevet.net
Message 33
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Jeff is a good guy with a good product (near as I can tell. Not flying
yet). He is just barely internet-enabled however. Don't let that
discourage you though. He is more than happy to help you out over the
phone. I bought my EI via the Orndorffs.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
2003 - The year of flight!
> -----Original Message-----
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Freddie Freeloader
> --> <lists@stevet.net>
>
> Hello Robert,
>
> As for Jeff Rose, check out the following:
>
> http://www.fly-gbi.com/eis.htm
>
> Saturday, February 15, 2003, 2:04:21 PM, you wrote:
>
> >> I have decided to go with mags for a
> >>while and then go to a one side electronic ignition. Never
> could get
> >>the Jeff Rose Info on the web.
>
> RLNI> He doesn't have a website but a websearch turned up
> RLNI> his address and phone number in about 50 places. Check
> RLNI> out
>
> RLNI> http://exp-aircraft.com/vendors/electroa.html
>
>
> RLNI> Bob . . .
Message 34
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| Subject: | Fwd: To Bob and Ben from PS Engineering |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <jclark@conterra.com>
Ben,
I know this is a bit late for you but maybe others should consider it ....
We recently finished 2 RV6's, and each has an intercom from DRE
Communications. I also have one in my Piper.
The 244e is a nice little unit that comes (if I recall correctly) with:
1. Intercom
2. Harness with **PLENTY** of wire
3. Instructions
4. Horizontal and verical labled "plates for the jacks
5. Jacks
They even helped me over the phone with some unique questions I had. One of
the engineers faxed me a schematic of a "circuit" that would accomplish what
I was trying to do with their intercom. No charge.
I bought a PS Engineering unit back in the early 90's and really liked it. I
was about to purchase another and happened upon DRE at Sun-N-Fun (or OSH)
years ago and have purchased only their stuff and Bose since then when it
came to intercoms **OR** headsets.
Just FYI.
James
No affiliation with DRE ... other than being a satisfied customer.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> Benford2@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 4:32 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: To Bob and Ben from PS Engineering
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 2/15/2003 12:30:29 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
>
>
> >
> >
> > >On the technical side, I never said that the PTT wire has to
> be shielded
> > (in
> > >fact, we don't supply this part of the harness, rather the
> customer has to
> > >wire this part up). What I did say was that the PTT wire has
> to go to the
> > >appropriate mic jack. i.e.; the Pilot PTT has to go to the
> Pilot mic jack,
> > >etc. It does not have to be shielded, sorry for the misunderstanding.
> >
> >
>
> Mark is a Damn LAIR !!!!! HE told me HIMSELF that shielded wires were
> required for the PTT circuit. IF you think I am blowing smoke < no pun
> intended> go to their web site and look at the schematics for the
> PS1000 ll
> and THEIR own drawing shows shielded wires on that circuit. He
> had me do this
> because after I bought my unit and got it home and opened up the
> box there is
> no wiring diagrams enclosed.
>
> Thats when I called Mark and asked for one. His first answer
> was" See your
> PS dealer". He hinted that I was not qualified to hook up his
> unit. This is
> after I wired the King KMD150, Icom Comm radio, King KT76-A transponder,
> Blind encoder, JPI 450 and all the rest of the general wiring in my 801
> Zenith. This does not include the detailed engine documentation
> package I
> have installed to monitor my Prototype All Aluminum V-8 Ford
> engine with the
> potential for telemetry to downlink data for the first few hours
> of flight.
> It seems kinda funny that the cheapest thing in my panel didn't come with
> installation instructions because in Marks eyes homebuilders are
> dumb. I want
> to thank Bob for all his time he spends with all of our
> questions. Ben Haas
> N801BH. Jackson Hole Wyoming.
>
>
> Thanks again Bob.
>
>
Message 35
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tammy and Mike Salzman <arrow54t@yahoo.com>
All,
I want to tell my story so others can beware. I too bought in to the
marketing tactic and bought the harness from PS Engineering to preserve
my warranty. When I got the harness, I was disgusted with the
workmanship. There were none of the insulation crimps applied
properly. No mechanical support at all. The power wires were not as
specified in the documantation that came with the intercom (wrong AWG).
Several wires were stripped too far back. To PS Engineering's credit,
they offered to make it right. PS Engineering doesn't make the
harnesses in-house, they are farmed out to a "reputable" avionics shop.
It was an easy task to fix the problems, so I went ahead and fixed
them myself rather than spend the time and money to send the harness
back. For $250 you would expect to get a quality harness. I think it
is wrong for them to insist that your warranty is void if you make your
own harness. Is this legal?
Mike Salzman
LNCE Fairfield, CA
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