Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:12 AM - Re: Alternator circuit breakers (David Swartzendruber)
2. 05:41 AM - Re: Alternator circuit breakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 05:42 AM - Re: Switch for AH ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 06:08 AM - Re: Switch for AH ? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
5. 06:29 AM - Re: Alternator circuit breakers (David Swartzendruber)
6. 07:07 AM - Alternator Field Breaker (John Schroeder)
7. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Mic Wiring (Shannon Knoepflein)
8. 08:15 AM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:16 AM - Switch Question (Scott Bilinski)
10. 08:18 AM - Re: Alternator circuit breakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 08:18 AM - MIL spec connectors (Scott Bilinski)
12. 09:04 AM - Re: PS warranty (KahnSG@aol.com)
13. 10:10 AM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker (John Schroeder)
14. 10:39 AM - Ford Motorcraft Alternator (N823ms@aol.com)
15. 11:10 AM - Re: Switch for AH ? (gilles.thesee)
16. 11:24 AM - Solid State Gyro Components (Canyon)
17. 12:26 PM - Battery chargers (Ed Perry)
18. 12:55 PM - Re: AMP CPC or Equivalent Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 01:00 PM - Re: Solid State Gyro Components (Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD)
20. 01:04 PM - Re: Battery chargers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 01:09 PM - Re: Ford Motorcraft Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 01:10 PM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 01:15 PM - Re: Battery chargers (John Schroeder)
24. 01:16 PM - Re: MIL spec connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 01:19 PM - Re: Battery chargers (Cy Galley)
26. 01:20 PM - Re: Switch Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 01:30 PM - Re: 10339 Bryk (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 01:38 PM - Re: shield pigtail (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
29. 01:57 PM - Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
30. 02:48 PM - Re: shield pigtail (Shannon Knoepflein)
31. 02:58 PM - Re: Solid State Gyro Components (Canyon)
32. 03:08 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (John Slade)
33. 03:22 PM - Re: Battery chargers (DHPHKH@aol.com)
34. 03:31 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (David Glauser)
35. 04:12 PM - Re: Solid State Gyro Components (John Loram)
36. 04:13 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection ()
37. 04:26 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (BobsV35B@aol.com)
38. 04:31 PM - Re: Solid State Gyro Components (Canyon)
39. 04:40 PM - Re: MIL spec connectors (Scott Bilinski)
40. 04:49 PM - Connectors pins & corrosion (Scott Bilinski)
41. 04:56 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Tony Babb)
42. 05:15 PM - Re: MIL spec connectors (Dan Checkoway)
43. 05:23 PM - PS Engineering. (Rob W M Shipley)
44. 05:23 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (David Glauser)
45. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: AMP CPC or Equivalent Connectors (John Schroeder)
46. 05:59 PM - Re: shield pigtail (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
47. 06:28 PM - Re: Re: 10339 Bryk (John Schroeder)
48. 06:36 PM - Re: Connectors pins & corrosion (RSwanson)
49. 06:37 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
50. 06:47 PM - Re: shield pigtail (Shannon Knoepflein)
51. 06:53 PM - Re: Connectors pins & corrosion (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
52. 07:04 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
53. 07:30 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Sam Buchanan)
54. 07:37 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
55. 08:18 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Matt Prather)
56. 08:39 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (John Slade)
57. 10:29 PM - Conflictiong Shield Termination (Don Boardman)
58. 10:39 PM - Re: Switch for AH ? (Jerzy Krasinski)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Alternator circuit breakers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
> >
> >I have a 60 Amp B&C alternator as the main, and a B&C SD-8 as the
backup.
> >
> >Z-13 shows a 5 amp breaker in each alternator field circuit. I was
given
> >two new 4 Amp Potter-Brownfield Circuit Breakers. Since the price was
> >right, I'd like to use them, if feasible. Will I be chancing nuisance
> >trips if I use the lighter breakers? Should I even consider using a 4
> >Amp breaker in either circuit?
>
> Peak current on the ND alternator is just over 3 amps.
> 4A breakers will be fine.
>
> Bob . . .
You'll only be able to use one of your 4A breakers though. The SD-8
doesn't have a field circuit.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
Message 2
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| Subject: | Alternator circuit breakers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:11 AM 2/19/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber"
><dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
>
> > >
> > >I have a 60 Amp B&C alternator as the main, and a B&C SD-8 as the
>backup.
> > >
> > >Z-13 shows a 5 amp breaker in each alternator field circuit. I was
>given
> > >two new 4 Amp Potter-Brownfield Circuit Breakers. Since the price was
> > >right, I'd like to use them, if feasible. Will I be chancing nuisance
> > >trips if I use the lighter breakers? Should I even consider using a 4
> > >Amp breaker in either circuit?
> >
> > Peak current on the ND alternator is just over 3 amps.
> > 4A breakers will be fine.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>You'll only be able to use one of your 4A breakers though. The SD-8
>doesn't have a field circuit.
But if installed with the recommended OV protections
and controls, it too will need a small breaker . . .
Bob . . .
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:18 AM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
>
> > > >So is a switch to run the AI only for intended use a worthwhile idea ?
>What about the possibility of leaving the switch off, then forgetting to
>cover the giro and including the giro in you're scan. Could cause
>disorientation or confusion at a bad time. I'd vote for no switch.
Electric gyros I've flow have flags that drop
on the face to annunciate power off.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Switch for AH ? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 2/18/03 11:32:14 PM Central Standard Time,
krasinski@direcway.com writes:
> This is probably true for gyros with limit stops, but those gyros belong
> to a museum. Good contemporary gyros have 360 degrees fredom in every
> direction of motion, and the plane rolls and loops around them in
> aerobatic figures.
Good Morning Jerzy,
I don't disagree with your premise as to the capability of many modern gyros,
(I mentioned that in the message from which you took your quote), but I would
like to state that the section of my message which you quote was not written
by me. It was a portion of a message to which I was adding additional data.
I do believe I credited the original author, Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr, in
my message.
However, I feel your comment that any gyro that tumbles in an aerobatic
maneuver should be relegated to a museum is a bit extreme.
I have no way of knowing for sure, but I will bet a milk shake that the
majority of gyros used in GA aircraft currently flown IFR will tumble. I
have a KG-102A feeding a KI-525A and an Edo-Aire Mitchell 52D66 artificial
horizon that are my primary IFR gyros.
Both of those instruments will tumble if aerobatic flight is attempted.
Are you suggesting that all instrumentation of that era should be abandoned?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 5
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| Subject: | Alternator circuit breakers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
Comments below
> > > >I was given
> > > >two new 4 Amp Potter-Brownfield Circuit Breakers. Since the price
was
> > > >right, I'd like to use them, if feasible. Will I be chancing
nuisance
> > > >trips if I use the lighter breakers? Should I even consider using
a 4
> > > >Amp breaker in either circuit?
> > >
> > > Peak current on the ND alternator is just over 3 amps.
> > > 4A breakers will be fine.
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> >
> >You'll only be able to use one of your 4A breakers though. The SD-8
> >doesn't have a field circuit.
>
> But if installed with the recommended OV protections
> and controls, it too will need a small breaker . . .
>
> Bob . . .
I didn't realize that you were recommending OV protection for the SD-8.
Is B&C also recommending it now? Six years ago, we were still saying
that the OV/LV sensor would be adequate because an OV condition would
happen slowly enough for the pilot to see the flashing light and turn
off the SD-8 before any damage was done.
Dave in Wichita
Message 6
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| Subject: | Alternator Field Breaker |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Bob -
On Z-14 and using fuse blocks instead of cb's, where are the power takeoffs for
the alternator field breakers?
Seems that the wires are unprotected for some length from their sources until
they gets to the cb's.
Thanks,
John Schroeder
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
I would like to hear Marks comments about the internal circuit
protection that the PSE products offer. And, if there is no internal
protection for polarity reversal, why not?
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Canyon
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mic Wiring
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon
<steve.canyon@verizon.net>
John Rourke wrote:
>Steve,
>While I don't necessarily agree with PSE's policy, I think the answer
to
>the question you ask is obvious: in the case of the purchased harness,
>your purchase pays for hand-holding, even if you screw up the other
end.
>It's kind of an insurance policy.
It may well be, but if so, I think a well thought out policy could be
presented in a way to make that clear and even optional while
maintaining a warranty from literal product defects and not leave the
customer with a bad taste over it either.
But, from Mark's answer to some of my questions he certainly left me
with the impression that his product has no provision for self
protection at all. If this is true, it certainly represents an
inelegant and archaic fundamental design philosophy, which IMHO, is far
worse than a flawed warranty policy.
>It may be more than I need, but it's there if I want it. Otherwise I'll
>just assume there's no warranty, and make my purchase decision on the
>unit, and on the harness, on that basis.
That's certainly not an unreasonable approach and one I may some day
take myself in lieu of better options. The lack of self protection
inherent in the design may well be the primary cause of his concerns
over support costs but since he has bailed out I guess I'll never
know. Either way, one mark of a flawed policy is an inability to
clearly demonstrate the rationale in a manner acceptable to the
customers.
While it is not my company and they are certainly free to run it any
way they like with no flak from me, I am very disappointed in the
answers (and lack of answers) I did get. I have no axe to grind here
whatsoever, just a prospective customer.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Field Breaker |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:07 AM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder
><jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>Bob -
>
>On Z-14 and using fuse blocks instead of cb's, where are the power
>takeoffs for
>the alternator field breakers?
>
>Seems that the wires are unprotected for some length from their sources until
>they gets to the cb's.
yes, use fusible links in the alternator field leads as shown
in figure Z-13
Bob . . .
Message 9
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@qcpi.com>
This engineer guy who seems quite intelligent keeps telling me NOT to use
switches rated for AC in a DC application. I have never heard anything like
this before. Anyone?
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 8220
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 10
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| Subject: | Alternator circuit breakers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
>I didn't realize that you were recommending OV protection for the SD-8.
>Is B&C also recommending it now? Six years ago, we were still saying
>that the OV/LV sensor would be adequate because an OV condition would
>happen slowly enough for the pilot to see the flashing light and turn
>off the SD-8 before any damage was done.
Yup. B&C has an install kit for PM altenrators that
includes a filter capacitor, ov module, control relay
and light fixture. It's their p/n 504-1 and wired
per Z-17.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | MIL spec connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@qcpi.com>
Does anyone know of a good place to buy MIL Spec connectors that dont cost
a fortune. I need one that can handle aobut 24 wires at 18g. I want to put
in line with a exisiting harness.
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 8220
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KahnSG@aol.com
I agreen with Shannon's comments.
I think Mark's responses have been very good and fair.
Even if the unit is "out of warranty", the flat rates to fix it are very
reasonable.
Believe me, in my business, even I have some "experts" doing some dumb things
while installing parts.
Then they want you to "warranty" it.
I am redoing my panel now and I am buying a PS audio panel.
Steve
Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Field Breaker |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
I take it that I can run the cb wires off of the stud of their respective fuse
blocks? Any better place?
>><jschroeder@perigee.net>
>>
>>Bob -
>>
>>On Z-14 and using fuse blocks instead of cb's, where are the power
>>takeoffs for
>>the alternator field breakers?
>>
>>Seems that the wires are unprotected for some length from their sources until
>>they gets to the cb's.
>
> yes, use fusible links in the alternator field leads as shown
> in figure Z-13
>
> Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Ford Motorcraft Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
Bob:
Just found out my engine, IO-520, will have a Ford Motorcraft
alternator. Do you know if this has an internal regulator and if so should I
bypass it and use the LR-3? If use it, how would I hook it up?
Ed
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Switch for AH ? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
----- Message d'origine -----
De : <BobsV35B@aol.com>
: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
Envoy : mercredi 19 fvrier 2003 15:07
Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch for AH ?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 2/18/03 11:32:14 PM Central Standard Time,
> krasinski@direcway.com writes:
>
> > This is probably true for gyros with limit stops, but those gyros belong
> > to a museum. Good contemporary gyros have 360 degrees fredom in every
> > direction of motion, and the plane rolls and loops around them in
> > aerobatic figures.
>
> Good Morning Jerzy,
>
> I don't disagree with your premise as to the capability of many modern
gyros,
> (I mentioned that in the message from which you took your quote), but I
would
> like to state that the section of my message which you quote was not
written
> by me. It was a portion of a message to which I was adding additional
data.
> I do believe I credited the original author, Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr,
in
> my message.
>
Hi all,
Just a note to say I'm the one who asked the first question, but I'm not the
author of the comments you are citing above.
Most interesting thread, though.
Cheers,
Gilles
Message 16
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| Subject: | Solid State Gyro Components |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon <steve.canyon@verizon.net>
I'm interested in locating some pointers to solid state gyro
components. I know almost nothing about them but can imagine they may
be a spinoff of some of the neat gismos that came out National
Semiconductor in the late '70s or early '80s. They had created some
interesting little solid state motors back then and which at the time I
really didn't pay much attention to other than to think they were
really innovative. Am I way off base on the fundamentals of these
components? Anybody got a link or pointer?
Thanks,
Steve
Message 17
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| Subject: | Battery chargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Perry" <eperry@san.rr.com>
Ok Here's the scoop...I have a PC-680 battery in my RV-8. I want to charge it.
I have a 12volt /1amp charger. The volt meter in the airplane shows 12.2 volts
right now. My hanger mate says that the charger will never get the battery
fully charged again. Is this true? If so would it make any difference to use my
10amp charger? Next what does the 1amp rating on the charger mean? Finally with
a sealed battery how will I know when it is charged, what voltage should I
expect to see?
Thanks,
Ed Perry
eperry@san.rr.com
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: AMP CPC or Equivalent Connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:25 AM 2/18/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DHPHKH@aol.com
>
>Bob and Gang,
> Discussion of connectors raises an interesting thought; don't think
> I've
>ever seen a good article on multi-wire plug connectors, and the selection of
>a particular type for a particular application. Electronics guys know the
>details because they've worked with them for years. The rest of us pick up a
>Digi-Key catalog or similar, find a jaw-dropping selection, and groan.
Engineers navigating connector-wilds aren't much happier about it.
Connectors are like laundry soap . . . so many choices, so few
outstanding reasons for selecting any particular technology.
Every year or so, some starry-eyed sales rep would drop a new
connector catalog on my desk claiming that THIS product finally
answered the needs for everyone and was the greatest connector
since they began slicing bread . . .
Task 1 for a connector is to make non-permanent connections
between one or more strands of wire. Attachment to the wire
can be solder, crimp, or mass-termination (like ribbon cables
munched onto a 50 wires in a single stroke). Considerations
are (1) do you really NEED a connector there? (2) how many strands
of wire? (3) what sizes of wire? (4) any extraordinary
environmental concerns? (5) any extra ordinary mechanical
concerns?
> Need examples? When does one use a Molex connector vs a D-sub?
D-subs are the first connector I consider for any new application.
Check out this picture:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/power_dist.jpg
This is a "tall" picture . . . so scroll down to
see the bottom half.
This is an all solid state, power distribution
box that routes energy from ground power jack
and up to two batteries to 5 different busses
in the vehicle. External power input can be as
high as 40A continuous . . . yet, if one knows
how to make it work, all can be handled though
the 20AWG pins of d-sub connectors.
This box USED to be about 10" long, 4" thick
5" wide, full of relays and wired up with
supper-whizzy connectors. The connectors alone
on the previous version cost more than the whole
bill of materials for the new version.
Here you can see how the solder-right-to-
the-board features of D-sub connectors has
a profound reduction of labor to install.
In this case, although subjected to up to
30g acceleration and short term radiant
heating, the D-sub was entirely suited
mechanically to the task. The mil-spec,
gold-plated pins were no worse (or better)
than the gold-plated pins on MUCH more
expensive connectors.
> Why are (most?) D-sub pins gold plated?
I wouldn't say most . . . you can buy tin-plated
connectors in D-sub. Gold is preferred because is
does not corrode . . . electrical integrity of
mated pins is not nearly so likely to degrade
with age and use. Gold plated pins are relatively
cheap for D-subs because of the huge volume in
this particular product. By-the-way, the same
20AWG pin is used in AMP CPC Series II connectors
like:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T031/0192.pdf
use the same pins as a D-sub . . . so you have
two low-cost connector opportunities to use the
same tools and a common part number for pins.
> Is connector selection as simple as
>observing an amperage rating, or is there more to it?
I you were wiring anything but voltages up to 28vdc,
there might be voltage rating issues but in our
market, ANY connector will suffice that can
carry the current and accommodate the quantity
of wires.
If you need to carry more than 4A continuous
per pin, consider the CPC Series I connectors
in the same catalog can accommodate up to
14AWG wires. Except for firewall penetrations,
the AMP CPC connectors for systems teamed with
CPC and/or D-subs for avionics would be my
connectors of choice. They are low cost, tools
are reasonably priced, gold plated pins are
available for both styles. Excellent values
for our projects.
> Why a choice of metal or plastic backshells?
Plastic is less expensive and lighter. 90% of my
applications use plastic. There are almost never
interference issues that justify the metal or
conductive plastic backshells. If the connector
is used under the cowl, metal backshells are probably
advised.
> The automotive world uses plastic connector shells
>that lock when mated; why don't we use similar connectors in our airplanes?
>Or do we, and where do you get them?
Mate-n-Lock/Molex style connectors have been used
on many single engine airplane beginning in the 60's.
>Does a Molex shell offer any wire support, or does it strictly
>depend on the insulation crimp of the little sheet copper pin?
That's it. No bundle support. Only the insulation grip
on each strand. I was skeptical when I first laid eyes on them
but in retrospect, they seem to have performed well for decades
in spite of no back shell support and non-gold pins.
> May seem like dumb questions to some, but...
Not at all. Before Internet access reduced the need,
my library used to have about 5 feet of shelving
dedicated to connectors. Your consternation is understandable.
I think you'll find that the two connector series
I cited will do a good job for your project 98%
of the time.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Solid State Gyro Components |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD <John.Livingston@wpafb.af.mil>
I believe most affordable solid state rate gyros are based on a micromachined vibrating
rod. When this rod is turned a coriolis like force causes it to distort
in a way proportional to the rate of turning. There are laser rate gyros as
well, both solid and fiber, but these are usually much more expensive.
-----Original Message-----
From: Canyon [mailto:steve.canyon@verizon.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyro Components
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon <steve.canyon@verizon.net>
I'm interested in locating some pointers to solid state gyro
components. I know almost nothing about them but can imagine they may
be a spinoff of some of the neat gismos that came out National
Semiconductor in the late '70s or early '80s. They had created some
interesting little solid state motors back then and which at the time I
really didn't pay much attention to other than to think they were
really innovative. Am I way off base on the fundamentals of these
components? Anybody got a link or pointer?
Thanks,
Steve
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Battery chargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:27 PM 2/19/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Perry" <eperry@san.rr.com>
>
>Ok Here's the scoop...I have a PC-680 battery in my RV-8. I want to charge
>it. I have a 12volt /1amp charger. The volt meter in the airplane shows
>12.2 volts right now. My hanger mate says that the charger will never get
>the battery fully charged again. Is this true? If so would it make any
>difference to use my 10amp charger? Next what does the 1amp rating on the
>charger mean? Finally with a sealed battery how will I know when it is
>charged, what voltage should I expect to see?
ANY charger that produces more output current than
the SELF-DISCHARGE current of the battery will eventually
recharge that battery. Since you're talking about an
RG battery with a self discharge rate on the order of
.001-.002 amps, a 1 amp charger has more than enough snort
to do the job. In fact, this charger will bring up a
totally dead battery in less than 24 hours.
In fact, unless your charger is REGULATED such that
end of charge voltage does not exceed 14.0 to 14.5
volts, it will (if left on for very long periods
of time) damage the battery.
Put a voltmeter on the battery terminals while the
charger is plugged in. Come back 24 hours later
and see what the voltage is. If higher than 14
volts, I would not use this charger to STORE the
battery . . . only to top it off under supervised
conditions.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Ford Motorcraft Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:37 PM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
>
>Bob:
>
> Just found out my engine, IO-520, will have a Ford Motorcraft
>alternator. Do you know if this has an internal regulator and if so should I
>bypass it and use the LR-3? If use it, how would I hook it up?
I suspect it has a built in regulator and needs to be wired
as shown in figure Z-24
Bob . . .
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Field Breaker |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:09 PM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder
><jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>I take it that I can run the cb wires off of the stud of their respective
>fuse
>blocks? Any better place?
Yes, hook the terminal end of the fusible link to
the fuseblock stud.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Battery chargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Ed -
12.5 v reading is 100% of charge level
10.5 v reading is 0% of charge level.
13 volts is the dividing line. 13.8 - 14.4 is OK for charging. Anything less
than 13 v means that the battery is adding "snort to the system" (discharging),
as Bob would put it. I'd use the 10 amp charger. The 1 amp sounds like it is a
trickle charger - provided it puts out more than 13 V.
John
2/19/2003 3:27:33 PM, "Ed Perry" <eperry@san.rr.com> wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Perry" <eperry@san.rr.com>
>
>Ok Here's the scoop...I have a PC-680 battery in my RV-8. I want to charge it.
I have a 12volt /1amp charger. The volt meter in the airplane shows 12.2 volts
right now. My hanger mate says that the charger will never get the battery
fully charged again. Is this true? If so would it make any difference to use my
10amp charger? Next what does the 1amp rating on the charger mean? Finally with
a sealed battery how will I know when it is charged, what voltage should I
expect to see?
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: MIL spec connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:18 AM 2/19/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@qcpi.com>
>
>Does anyone know of a good place to buy MIL Spec connectors that dont cost
>a fortune. I need one that can handle aobut 24 wires at 18g. I want to put
>in line with a exisiting harness.
What is the "magic" you expect for having purchased
mil-spec? Unless you have a customer with some hard
over requirement for spec'd connectors, consider the
AMP CPC connectors on pages 191-192 of current Digikey
catalog.
If you gotta have holy-watered connectors, contact
Aeroelectric Connector in Torrance, CA
(310) 618-3737 and give them a part number.
Consider the MS3470 series connectors at
http://www.aero-electric.com/26482_2.htm
pick your inserts from
http://www.aero-electric.com/26482s2_cont_insert.htm
Consider too that tools to install/extract
pins will be needed.
Bob . . .
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Battery chargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Place your 1 amp trickle charger on the battery. If it is charging it should
show more than the 12.2 volts that it presently shows.
Now the real question... Why do you want to charge it?
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Perry" <eperry@san.rr.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery chargers
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Perry" <eperry@san.rr.com>
>
> Ok Here's the scoop...I have a PC-680 battery in my RV-8. I want to charge
it. I have a 12volt /1amp charger. The volt meter in the airplane shows
12.2 volts right now. My hanger mate says that the charger will never get
the battery fully charged again. Is this true? If so would it make any
difference to use my 10amp charger? Next what does the 1amp rating on the
charger mean? Finally with a sealed battery how will I know when it is
charged, what voltage should I expect to see?
>
> Thanks,
> Ed Perry
> eperry@san.rr.com
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Switch Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:14 AM 2/19/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@qcpi.com>
>
>This engineer guy who seems quite intelligent keeps telling me NOT to use
>switches rated for AC in a DC application. I have never heard anything like
>this before. Anyone?
Short answer is yes, heard it a lot from folks who have not
bothered to look at the data or to tap the experience base
of the industry.
Long answer is:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 27
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> Bob I am in the proces of creating a pitch trim rely deck. Can't use MAC
> to much load. I was reading you download about this Pitch trim page
> 4.2. The elevator trim on the Velocity has a 3amp draw and 5a breaker so
> i have a good idea of the size of the relays. Any suggestion on whose to use?
The S704-1 relay shown on our website catalog is suited
to this task and can be wired per diagram you cited.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s704-1l.jpg
> Also have a question on the spike diodes you use in the diagram
> I assume 12v but what oHm and amp size would you suggest.
> If you have a description that goes whit that diagram how can I get it?
Don't have a bill of materials for this. Any diode
you can put your hands on will work. 1N4000 series
devices mounted like
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/s704inst.jpg
this picture shows how to put the diode on when
used as an alternator disconnect relay . . . using
this relay as pitch-trim relay would be wired
similarly.
Bob . . .
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: shield pigtail |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:11 PM 2/16/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein"
><kycshann@kyol.net>
>
>Is it absolutely imperative that you connect a pigtail to the shield, or
>is it possible/acceptable to twist the shield and crimp a pin to it and
>insert it directly into the plug?
Give it a try . . . even if you manage to produce a reasonable
electrical connection of the pin to an array of twisted wires,
I don't think you'll find the end product very pleasing to the
eye. I tried it . . . . once . . .
Bob . . .
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Got a book back from a gentleman who asked for his money
back. Couldn't find where I'd sold it too him. He must
have picked it up from one of the dealers. It had a stained
front cover which he confessed happened when he left
a sandwich laying on it . . . but the interior was still
okay.
He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly
understand something you should know how. But things
keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning
how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no
concern."
For the first time in 17 years of publication and
something on the order of 10,000 books sold,
his was the first instance where an amateur airplane
builder said they have no interest knowing how their
airplane works . . . truly a milestone in my aviation
career.
I cut him a check and put it in the mail with a note
hoping that his experiences with his airplane were
"enjoyable and stress free." I've put his letter on the
bulletin board over my desk. It's a "keeper". . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
Message 30
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
Crap. That's how I did them all. Guess I should redo all that.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net
>Is it absolutely imperative that you connect a pigtail to the shield,
or
>is it possible/acceptable to twist the shield and crimp a pin to it and
>insert it directly into the plug?
Give it a try . . . even if you manage to produce a reasonable
electrical connection of the pin to an array of twisted wires,
I don't think you'll find the end product very pleasing to the
eye. I tried it . . . . once . . .
Bob . . .
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Solid State Gyro Components |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon <steve.canyon@verizon.net>
Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD wrote:
>I believe most affordable solid state rate gyros are based on a
>micromachined vibrating rod. When this rod is turned a coriolis like
>force causes it to distort in a way proportional to the rate of
>turning. There are laser rate gyros as well, both solid and fiber,
>but these are usually much more expensive.
---
Thanks, John. I finally found one such as you describe, made in Japan
by SSSG, Inc. Very interesting device -- got to think about playing
with some of these now. :-)
Thanks again!
Message 32
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| Subject: | Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly
> understand something you should know how. But things
> keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning
> how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no
> concern."
Bob,
I wouln't dream of sending back my copy of the Connection, even for double
the price, but I must admit that I do understand his sentiments. Building an
airplane involves a long and steep learning curve. The more we can par down
to the essentials what we have to learn, the easier the journey will be.
Finding the information relevant to the practical job in hand involves a lot
of sifting with the current layout.
IMHO you're book would be better as two books. Book 1 - the history of
aviation electronics. It's facinating stuff, but I don't need it right now.
Book 2 - how to wire you're plane - or ideally "how to wire you're canard
pusher". I'd buy book 2, and leave book 1 for background reading when I've
got more spare time. For example: I DO want to know why I need an
overvoltage protection circuit, how it works and how to wire it up, but I
DONT really care how a generator works, or why they were replaced by
alternators.
Regards,
John Slade
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Battery chargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DHPHKH@aol.com
>> I have a PC-680 battery in my RV-8. I want to charge it.<<
Ed, there are good data sheets with battery care info at the Hawker Energy
Products website.
Dan
Message 34
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| Subject: | Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser" <david.glauser@xpsystems.com>
Yes! I must agree there. A more definite separation of electrical theory from practical
details would be nice. I've read and reread The Good Aeroplane Electrical
Thingies Book (tm) but I still have a large gap between what I read and what
I'm trying to do to the plane. It must be a mental problem of mine, but it
sure is frustrating. I wish I had a co-builder who understood all this stuff.
dg
-----Original Message-----
From: John Slade [mailto:sladerj@bellsouth.net]
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly
> understand something you should know how. But things
> keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning
> how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no
> concern."
Bob,
I wouln't dream of sending back my copy of the Connection, even for double
the price, but I must admit that I do understand his sentiments. Building an
airplane involves a long and steep learning curve. The more we can par down
to the essentials what we have to learn, the easier the journey will be.
Finding the information relevant to the practical job in hand involves a lot
of sifting with the current layout.
IMHO you're book would be better as two books. Book 1 - the history of
aviation electronics. It's facinating stuff, but I don't need it right now.
Book 2 - how to wire you're plane - or ideally "how to wire you're canard
pusher". I'd buy book 2, and leave book 1 for background reading when I've
got more spare time. For example: I DO want to know why I need an
overvoltage protection circuit, how it works and how to wire it up, but I
DONT really care how a generator works, or why they were replaced by
alternators.
Regards,
John Slade
Message 35
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| Subject: | Solid State Gyro Components |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Loram <johnl@loram.org>
Analog Devices (www.analogdevices.com) is a primary sourced for MEMS
devices. Go to their home page and
and look under the heading "Technology Leadership". At the bottom you'll
find a link to the MEMS products and technical support for their iMEMS
Accelerometers and Gyroscopes.
regards, -john-
john@loram.org
www.loram.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Canyon [mailto:steve.canyon@verizon.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyro Components
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon <steve.canyon@verizon.net>
I'm interested in locating some pointers to solid state gyro
components. I know almost nothing about them but can imagine they may
be a spinoff of some of the neat gismos that came out National
Semiconductor in the late '70s or early '80s. They had created some
interesting little solid state motors back then and which at the time I
really didn't pay much attention to other than to think they were
really innovative. Am I way off base on the fundamentals of these
components? Anybody got a link or pointer?
Thanks,
Steve
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
Hi Bob,
I bought the Aerolectric Book several years ago and believe it is just
right. I have studied it several times over the years and find that it is
just the right amount of theory and practice. Since I don't practice
electrical engineering I tend to quickly forget the principals involved but
I am glad that I can pick up your book and with an evening of reading can
quickly regain a grasp of the basics. Then I can proceed with the
applications also offered in the book.
I feel that I am a better and safer pilot for having learned from your
lectures and book. I think we are all extremely priveledged to have you as a
resource and encourage you to keep on with your work.....
Thanks for all your efforts,
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade"
<sladerj@bellsouth.net>
>
> > He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly
> > understand something you should know how. But things
> > keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning
> > how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no
> > concern."
>
> Bob,
> I wouln't dream of sending back my copy of the Connection, even for double
> the price, but I must admit that I do understand his sentiments. Building
an
> airplane involves a long and steep learning curve. The more we can par
down
> to the essentials what we have to learn, the easier the journey will be.
> Finding the information relevant to the practical job in hand involves a
lot
> of sifting with the current layout.
>
> IMHO you're book would be better as two books. Book 1 - the history of
> aviation electronics. It's facinating stuff, but I don't need it right
now.
> Book 2 - how to wire you're plane - or ideally "how to wire you're canard
> pusher". I'd buy book 2, and leave book 1 for background reading when I've
> got more spare time. For example: I DO want to know why I need an
> overvoltage protection circuit, how it works and how to wire it up, but I
> DONT really care how a generator works, or why they were replaced by
> alternators.
>
> Regards,
> John Slade
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 2/19/03 6:14:33 PM Central Standard Time, 315@cox.net
writes:
> I feel that I am a better and safer pilot for having learned from your
> lectures and book. I think we are all extremely privileged to have you as a
> resource and encourage you to keep on with your work.....
>
>
Good Evening All.
I know we are not supposed to use bandwidth to say "Me Too." However, in
this case I hope I will be forgiven. The only thing that I have found in the
years I have been reading Electric Bob's stuff is that it has gotten better
and better.
Stay the course!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 38
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| Subject: | Solid State Gyro Components |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon <steve.canyon@verizon.net>
John Loram wrote:
>Analog Devices (www.analogdevices.com) is a primary sourced for MEMS
>devices. Go to their home page and
>and look under the heading "Technology Leadership". At the bottom you'll
>find a link to the MEMS products and technical support for their iMEMS
>Accelerometers and Gyroscopes.
---
Ahh... thanks very much, John. Sounds like just what I was looking
for. AD has been around a long time. Google usually pulls through for
me, but it missed on several of these. Guess I needed better search
criteria.
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: MIL spec connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@qcpi.com>
Thanks got one ordered. Should have said Mil-Spec type connector. It was
still expensive thought but feel better knowing that I will have a high
quality connector in line replacing the piece of garbage I originally
installed.
At 03:15 PM 2/19/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>At 08:18 AM 2/19/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@qcpi.com>
>>
>>Does anyone know of a good place to buy MIL Spec connectors that dont cost
>>a fortune. I need one that can handle aobut 24 wires at 18g. I want to put
>>in line with a exisiting harness.
>
> What is the "magic" you expect for having purchased
> mil-spec? Unless you have a customer with some hard
> over requirement for spec'd connectors, consider the
> AMP CPC connectors on pages 191-192 of current Digikey
> catalog.
>
> If you gotta have holy-watered connectors, contact
> Aeroelectric Connector in Torrance, CA
> (310) 618-3737 and give them a part number.
>
> Consider the MS3470 series connectors at
> http://www.aero-electric.com/26482_2.htm
> pick your inserts from
> http://www.aero-electric.com/26482s2_cont_insert.htm
> Consider too that tools to install/extract
> pins will be needed.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 8220
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 40
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| Subject: | Connectors pins & corrosion |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@qcpi.com>
Cars do not us gold plated pins, nor do they use many sealed connectors in
the engine comaprtment, and I have never heard of a problem with corroded
connections. With this being said can it be safe to say that high doller
connectors are not required in aircraft but your typical cheap Radio Shack
$5.00 connector will not cause problems?
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 8220
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb@alejandra.net>
Bob,
Don't despair, we've all had occasions when all we want is for someone to
tell us what to do and we'll do it, just to make some progress. Then our
natural curiosity returns and we get back to being experimenters again. I'm
glad all the stuff is in the connection even though I have to admit I skim
some of it, eventually I'll have read it all and hopefully absorbed the
important stuff..
I haven't started my electrical system yet and probably won't for a year or
more - maybe even longer - but I'm lurking here in hope's I'll pick up an
understanding and a "feel for .." this stuff when I'm actually doing it. My
biggest fear is that there is something I'm just not aware of, or that
hasn't registered with me, but I'm hoping it's nothing major and that a Tech
counsellor will spot whatever I missed.
I especially like your summary comments "..if it were my plane I'd ...".
Like one of the other people I'm also building a canard pusher but generally
I can figure out what is relevant to my situation and what is not.
Cheers and thanks again for all the good work.
Cheers,
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Glauser" <david.glauser@xpsystems.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser"
<david.glauser@xpsystems.com>
>
> Yes! I must agree there. A more definite separation of electrical theory
from practical details would be nice. I've read and reread The Good
Aeroplane Electrical Thingies Book (tm) but I still have a large gap between
what I read and what I'm trying to do to the plane. It must be a mental
problem of mine, but it sure is frustrating. I wish I had a co-builder who
understood all this stuff.
>
> dg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Slade [mailto:sladerj@bellsouth.net]
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade"
<sladerj@bellsouth.net>
>
> > He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly
> > understand something you should know how. But things
> > keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning
> > how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no
> > concern."
>
> Bob,
> I wouln't dream of sending back my copy of the Connection, even for double
> the price, but I must admit that I do understand his sentiments. Building
an
> airplane involves a long and steep learning curve. The more we can par
down
> to the essentials what we have to learn, the easier the journey will be.
> Finding the information relevant to the practical job in hand involves a
lot
> of sifting with the current layout.
>
> IMHO you're book would be better as two books. Book 1 - the history of
> aviation electronics. It's facinating stuff, but I don't need it right
now.
> Book 2 - how to wire you're plane - or ideally "how to wire you're canard
> pusher". I'd buy book 2, and leave book 1 for background reading when I've
> got more spare time. For example: I DO want to know why I need an
> overvoltage protection circuit, how it works and how to wire it up, but I
> DONT really care how a generator works, or why they were replaced by
> alternators.
>
> Regards,
> John Slade
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: MIL spec connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> What is the "magic" you expect for having purchased
> mil-spec? Unless you have a customer with some hard
> over requirement for spec'd connectors, consider the
> AMP CPC connectors on pages 191-192 of current Digikey
> catalog.
Scott, I found these on page 175. Got my catalog a few weeks ago.
do not archive
)_( Dan
Message 43
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" <Rob@RobsGlass.com>
Rob Housman has summed up the real reason most of us are now harhouring very negative
feelings to PS Engineering.
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
I for one am not at all "wondering" why Chris thought that modifying the
factory supplied harness would void the warranty. You (PS Engineering)
quite clearly do not trust any homebuilder (no matter how well qualified) to
assemble the harness from scratch so I (and probably most of the other folks
reading your comments) would conclude that you likewise do not consider us
homebuilders competent to repair your faulty harness.
How do you rationalize that we have the expertise to repair but not to
assemble a harness?
Further, how do you rationalize your insistence that your audio panel (when
sold as an Apollo SL15 or SL10) must be installed with your harness or by a
"FAA-certified avionics shop," while UPS trusts us homebuilders to install
the entire "full stack" of Apollo radios (except the SL15) and all of the
necessary wiring? Let's get real here - the audio panel is decidedly low
tech compared to the rest of the stack.
Just for laughs, do you consider the holder of a Repairman Certificate to be
"a non-certified individual?"
I am not raising these points to harass you - I had decided on the Apollo
radios, including your audio panel, but this thread has made me reconsider
my choice of audio panel. If you start coming up with some better answers
and more enlightened warranty policies I (and I think many others) will
reconsider (again) and buy your products. Your current policy makes the
decision a no brainer.
Rob Housman
Quite clearly Mark Scheuer is quite unable to consider the possibility that since
we first build our aeroplanes and then install complex avionics installations
with the help and cooperation of other vendors we are not amused to discover
that PS Engineering considers us insufficiently skilled to install their audio
panel. This is rather insulting - unless of course the panel is unnecessarily
complicated comes with poor installation instructions and is insufficiently
robustly designed.
The subsequent justifications and spin are not creating a very good impression
either. Your choices are simple make it straightforward to install and warranty
your product. If you don't other products will be chosen instead and spin
(whining) from PS Engineering will continue to irritate and alienate the builders.
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
RV9A N919RV Fuselage.
Message 44
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| Subject: | Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser" <david.glauser@xpsystems.com>
Oh, please don't get the idea that I'm critical of Bob. I would like to state here
that without Bob, I don't think my plane would ever fly. I read every message
on this forum, and my copy of Bob's book and my AC43-13 are both well-thumbed.
I just seem to have a block when it comes to understanding things electrical.
I'm not dumb - I design and develop very complex software for a living. I
should have no trouble picking up electrical theory. It is relatively straight-forward,
being in the physical realm. But I can read about it all day and think
it makes sense, and then when I go to the garage and try to do a circuit,
I'm at a loss. Not Bob's problem, and I'm way ahead of where I'd be without him.
As Tony says, thanks again for all the good work.
dg
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Babb [mailto:tonybabb@alejandra.net]
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb@alejandra.net>
Bob,
Don't despair, we've all had occasions when all we want is for someone to
tell us what to do and we'll do it, just to make some progress. Then our
natural curiosity returns and we get back to being experimenters again. I'm
glad all the stuff is in the connection even though I have to admit I skim
some of it, eventually I'll have read it all and hopefully absorbed the
important stuff..
I haven't started my electrical system yet and probably won't for a year or
more - maybe even longer - but I'm lurking here in hope's I'll pick up an
understanding and a "feel for .." this stuff when I'm actually doing it. My
biggest fear is that there is something I'm just not aware of, or that
hasn't registered with me, but I'm hoping it's nothing major and that a Tech
counsellor will spot whatever I missed.
I especially like your summary comments "..if it were my plane I'd ...".
Like one of the other people I'm also building a canard pusher but generally
I can figure out what is relevant to my situation and what is not.
Cheers and thanks again for all the good work.
Cheers,
Tony
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: AMP CPC or Equivalent Connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
> If you need to carry more than 4A continuous
> per pin, consider the CPC Series I connectors
> in the same catalog can accommodate up to
> 14AWG wires. Except for firewall penetrations,
> the AMP CPC connectors for systems teamed with
> CPC and/or D-subs for avionics would be my
> connectors of choice. They are low cost, tools
> are reasonably priced, gold plated pins are
> available for both styles. Excellent values
> for our projects.
Bob -
You say "except for firewall penetrations...". What kind of connector would you
use for this application?
Super posting on connectors! Thanks.
John
Message 46
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:12 PM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein"
><kycshann@kyol.net>
>
>Crap. That's how I did them all. Guess I should redo all that.
How did it come out for you? the shielded wire I use
here would be VERY hard to twist, insulate and then stuff
into the wire grip on a 20AWG pin . . . Are you happy
with the outcome? Do you perceive any risks for un-captured
strands of the shielding "unwinding" and making undesired
connections within the connector?
Bob . . .
Message 47
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>> Bob I am in the proces of creating a pitch trim rely deck. Can't use MAC
>> to much load. I was reading you download about this Pitch trim page
>> 4.2. The elevator trim on the Velocity has a 3amp draw and 5a breaker so
>> i have a good idea of the size of the relays. Any suggestion on whose to use?
>
> The S704-1 relay shown on our website catalog is suited
> to this task and can be wired per diagram you cited.
Bob -
I have a pitch trim sheet from the Lancair IV wirebook that you did some time
ago. It is page 4.2. Is this the same one referenced in the posting quoted
above? If not where could I find a copy of the page in .dwg format?
Thanks,
John Schroeder
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Connectors pins & corrosion |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RSwanson <rswan19@comcast.net>
I beg to differ sir. You cannot make such an assumption on the few
vehicles the average person sees. I know of several dozen problems with
corroded connectors on autos. You have to be either a mechanic or hangout
at a wrecking yard to be aware of some of the problems that are really
rare, but do exist.
R
From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@qcpi.com>
---snip---
> and I have never heard of a problem with corroded
> connections.
Message 49
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| Subject: | Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>IMHO you're book would be better as two books. Book 1 - the history of
>aviation electronics. It's facinating stuff, but I don't need it right now.
>Book 2 - how to wire you're plane - or ideally "how to wire you're canard
>pusher". I'd buy book 2, and leave book 1 for background reading when I've
>got more spare time. For example: I DO want to know why I need an
>overvoltage protection circuit, how it works and how to wire it up, but I
>DONT really care how a generator works, or why they were replaced by
>alternators.
Understand . . . and I did consider what you've suggested
but after the first few issues of the 'Connection made it to
hard copy, it became apparent that the book was more a design
manual than a fabrication manual.
Tony B and his contemporaries put heavy emphasis on fabrication
. . . and the systems they recommended were al-la C-172.
I realized that you guys need to be systems designers.
My most memorable teachers showed me that you cannot do
your best work without understanding the individual
components and the history of their evolution.
I'll bet the classes of cooking school spend a lot of time
discussing various components of discipline, their histories
and how they interact with each other before they ever
put a match to the stove.
It's true that many folks building airplanes would like
the Heath Kit approach . . . and for those folks, Van's
drawings, Tony's books, and products like the EXPBUS
represent the shortest, and perhaps easiest routes
to success.
Forgive me, but that just doesn't excite me in the
least. It's like lifting a 6-cyl out of a '64 Chevy
and dropping it into modern vehicle just because
it's the machine I understand and can work on. I'd
like to believe that many folks who buy the 'Connection and
participate on this list are looking for ways to
make their projects truly represent the best we
know how to do in the year 2003. Having a good
working knowledge of the box of "Tinker-Toys" is
an essential tool of that task.
Given the wide variety of aircraft represented
on this list, fabrication information still
has to be generic. We've talked about bundling,
wire marking, firewall penetrations, panel labeling,
etc quite a bit on this list . . . and beyond those
kinds of techniques, what is useful and necessary
for fabrication?
It seems to me that most of our meaty discussions
are still very much at the component level with
discussions on suitability, performance, costs,
pitfalls, etc. None of this is very cook-bookish
for those who yearn for the box full of
parts and a check-box set of installation
instructions.
I AM interested in suggestions. For example,
what particular fabrication techniques would
anyone think should be in the 'Connection?
When the 'Connection first started, illustrations
were laborious. Heavily illustrated
instructions were easier to do on the website;
hence all the comic books and other how-to
pieces. My sense is that these things are best
left on the website where the cost of production
and distribution of a dozen, high rez color
photos and text is a tiny fraction of that
required to putting ink to paper on 1,000
copies of a book.
Your comment about, "book 1 for background
reading when I've got more spare time" caught
my attention. It's been my experience as
student, teacher and practitioner that the
"spare time" almost never comes later. If
it's not part of the curriculum, the follow-up
will rarely happen, if ever.
You folks are the customers. The 'Connection and
the website are as much yours as they are mine.
Let's push them ahead together.
Bob . . .
Message 50
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
Well, I didn't think the outcome was too bad, or I guess it would have
caught my attention before. It didn't really sink in until I saw your
post and pix on the subject. The shield twisted without much effort,
and the pin seemed to grip well. However, I didn't insulate them with
heatshrink like I "at least" should have.
As far as being happy...what you show is a lot nicer now that I think
about it, but I'm not sure I really perceive any problems though. I
think I'll probably go back and heat shrink them all, and call it good.
That should keep any strands from getting their own ideas....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: shield pigtail
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:12 PM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein"
><kycshann@kyol.net>
>
>Crap. That's how I did them all. Guess I should redo all that.
How did it come out for you? the shielded wire I use
here would be VERY hard to twist, insulate and then stuff
into the wire grip on a 20AWG pin . . . Are you happy
with the outcome? Do you perceive any risks for un-captured
strands of the shielding "unwinding" and making undesired
connections within the connector?
Bob . . .
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Connectors pins & corrosion |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:49 PM 2/19/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@qcpi.com>
>
>Cars do not us gold plated pins, nor do they use many sealed connectors in
>the engine comaprtment, and I have never heard of a problem with corroded
>connections. With this being said can it be safe to say that high doller
>connectors are not required in aircraft but your typical cheap Radio Shack
>$5.00 connector will not cause problems?
I've had perhaps a dozen "incidents" involving
poor contact in automotive connectors with the first
one rising out of the ashes of a charred firewall
connector on my '59 Chevy and the most spectacular
being an AMC Pacer that kept trying to immolate
itself via a very poor fuseblock design.
I'd judge that the most difficult to find and fix
electrical problems have involved connector quality
issues and represent perhaps 1/4 of all failures
I've personally dealt with. Of course, the automotive
world used to use brass-on-brass connectors . . . at
least they're adding some plating and even a degree
of environmental sealing in modern connectors.
It's a sure bet that the gold-plated is better than
tin-plated is better than bare-brass connectors
with "Radio Shack" parts falling someplace between
the extremes. It can very much depend on where you
live. Our dirt cheap speakers on the Cessna SE aircraft
wouldn't last 6-months in Opa Locka, FL but lasted forever
in Tucson, AZ.
For myself, it kinda boils down to "if you haven't
got the time/dollars to do it right the first time,
where do you find the time/dollars to do it over
later?" The % increase in overall cost of the system
to use gold plated pins in all my airframe harnesses
instead of something cheaper is trivial. I'd call
this simple, reasonably priced risk management.
Bob . . .
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
>Good Evening All.
>
>I know we are not supposed to use bandwidth to say "Me Too." However, in
>this case I hope I will be forgiven. The only thing that I have found in the
>years I have been reading Electric Bob's stuff is that it has gotten better
>and better.
>
>Stay the course!
>
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
. . and all of you have participated in this endeavor.
I've learned more about advancing the state of the art
in the last 15 years of the 'Connection than I did
in the first 25 years of hearding new products through
the certification traps.
I've learned new things because you guys asked questions
that fertilized a search for answers. All of those
Z-figures evolved because there were opportunities
unfettered by tradition and regulation.
Bob . . .
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> Got a book back from a gentleman who asked for his money
> back. Couldn't find where I'd sold it too him. He must
> have picked it up from one of the dealers. It had a stained
> front cover which he confessed happened when he left
> a sandwich laying on it . . . but the interior was still
> okay.
>
> He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly
> understand something you should know how. But things
> keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning
> how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no
> concern."
>
> For the first time in 17 years of publication and
> something on the order of 10,000 books sold,
> his was the first instance where an amateur airplane
> builder said they have no interest knowing how their
> airplane works . . . truly a milestone in my aviation
> career.
>
> I cut him a check and put it in the mail with a note
> hoping that his experiences with his airplane were
> "enjoyable and stress free." I've put his letter on the
> bulletin board over my desk. It's a "keeper". . .
>
> Bob . . .
Bob, the attitude of your reader is one that I have personally been
confronted with by a few readers of my website, "The RV Journal". One of
the most enjoyable aspects of a fly-in, major or minor, is the
opportunity for me to meet builders who express their appreciation for
the effort I expended on documenting the construction of my RV-6.
However, I have been discouraged to find that there is a segment of
builders who really have no interest in "doing their homework" as most
of us find necessary and challenging; they just want somebody to "tell
them what to do". This attitude concerns me because I have questioned a
few builders about the choices they made during construction and the
reply was "I just did it because that is what I read on your website".
The fact that their mission profile or flight experience was different
from mine, or the possibility that my reasoning may have been flawed
(!?!) was apparently not a factor in their decision to parrot what they
found on a builder's website. What is especially discouraging is that a
very few builders have seemed to take exception to my suggestion that
they need to research certain areas of construction to make sure the
plane is best suited to their needs.
Fortunately, I am describing a very small segment of the builders I have
met. However, as more and more folk enter the world of custom-built
aircraft, a world many of them would have never considered a few years
ago, I suspect the segment of builders who wish to replace personal
education with a "cookbook mentality" will become larger. It may very
well be an extension of our society's wish to achieve instant
gratification, but the construction and safe operation of an airplane is
not a good endeavor to pursue by blindly following other people's ideas
without understanding the rational of engineering factors.
Thanks again for your continued efforts to bring us up to speed on
electrical theory and practice; and especially thank you for encouraging
innovative thought outside the conventional box! :-)
Sam Buchanan
http://thervjournal.com
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:13 PM 2/19/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I bought the Aerolectric Book several years ago and believe it is just
>right. I have studied it several times over the years and find that it is
>just the right amount of theory and practice. Since I don't practice
>electrical engineering I tend to quickly forget the principals involved but
>I am glad that I can pick up your book and with an evening of reading can
>quickly regain a grasp of the basics. Then I can proceed with the
>applications also offered in the book.
>
>I feel that I am a better and safer pilot for having learned from your
>lectures and book. I think we are all extremely priveledged to have you as a
>resource and encourage you to keep on with your work.....
>
>Thanks for all your efforts,
Thank you . . . I'm pleased that you find the work
useful enough to patronize. We're helping each other!
It occurred to me that my "Milestone" post may have
been interpreted as being disappointed that the
customer didn't find the 'Connection to be a valuable
resource . . . which was NOT what surprised me.
I was most startled by his assertion that he didn't
want nor did he care to know how things worked. Whether
his information source of choice was the 'Connection or
any other didn't matter. The fact that he was making
a conscious effort to be a knob twister and lever
puller largely ignorant of the results of his actions
gave me the shivers.
I'm truly concerned for his future as a pilot.
I think many folks like this are star performers
in many dark-n-stormy-night situations with too
many not being around write the story down for
AOPA Pilot when the sun comes up.
Bob . . .
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Prather <mprather@spro.net>
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
>I've learned new things because you guys asked questions
> that fertilized a search for answers. All of those
>
Hahahaha!! Bob's calling our questions 'fertilizer.' What will he
think of next??? :)
> Z-figures evolved because there were opportunities
> unfettered by tradition and regulation.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
do not archive
Matt (fertilizer maker) Prather
N34RD
Message 56
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| Subject: | Milestone in history of the 'Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> The fact that he was making
> a conscious effort to be a knob twister and lever
> puller largely ignorant of the results of his actions
> gave me the shivers.
Bob,
I think perhaps you're interpreting "knob twister's" words too strongly.
While I understand his sentiment, I do want to understand the inner working
and function of EVERY gizmo that actually GOES IN my machine and why it's
there instead of various alternatives. What I don't feel I need to know is
how that gizmo evolved through layers of now extinct technology. Time spent
researching what we builders do has to be balanced against time spent
actually doing things. Get the balance wrong and there's danger of our not
getting to "pull the levers" until after the gizmos on the end have joined
the rows of extinct gizmos before them.
John Slade
Message 57
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| Subject: | Conflictiong Shield Termination |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
Hi Bob,
The shields for the mic and phone inputs and then the outputs to the com
radios for my PMA4000 Audio Panel/Intercom are shown terminated to "Lo" at
the intercom only. Fine. The outputs are shown going to Com 1 and Com 2 and
the shield is left unconnected. The unswitched audio connection to the GPS
is also shown grounded only at the intercom, fine.
The problem ... the wire diagram for the Icom radios show the mic and phone
shields making a connection at the radio, actually it looks like they are
using a single shielded conductor and using the shield as the ground/return
wire. The GPS also shows the audio to the intercom with the shield
terminated at the GPS end.
Do I need to make some phone calls?
Your thoughts,
Don
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Switch for AH ? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski@direcway.com>
Bob,
All right, sometimes just to make a point stronger we get a bit extreme.
But I would consider risky to go into a heavy turbulence with a gyro
with a limit stop. And for sure one should not attempt aerobatics with
these gyros running. Tumbling them would not extend their lifetime.
My gyro is an old cheap electrical postcommunist gyro LUN1202 made in
Czechoslovakia, it does not have the limit stops, but it does not have
the third frame, so it is not considered a true aerobatic gyro.
Nevertheless, it takes a lot of effort to get it tumbled. After many
attempts eventually I managed to tumble it by pushing rudder while going
vertically up. Going up or down are the situations when the two frames
of the gyro go into one plane. That position does not cause troubles if
you go straight, it works fine in loops. But if you push the rudder
while vertical you might get a trouble. I doubt if I ever get in such a
position due to a turbulence, and I always felt secure with it. It still
works all right, and now I am installing it into my KIS Cruiser. This is
not an aerobatic plane so no plans for vertical flying. I also have a
Czechoslovakian Directional Gyro LUN 1272.
Jerzy
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 2/18/03 11:32:14 PM Central Standard Time,
>krasinski@direcway.com writes:
>
>
>
>>This is probably true for gyros with limit stops, but those gyros belong
>>to a museum. Good contemporary gyros have 360 degrees fredom in every
>>direction of motion, and the plane rolls and loops around them in
>>aerobatic figures.
>>
>>
>
>Good Morning Jerzy,
>
>I don't disagree with your premise as to the capability of many modern gyros,
>(I mentioned that in the message from which you took your quote), but I would
>like to state that the section of my message which you quote was not written
>by me. It was a portion of a message to which I was adding additional data.
>I do believe I credited the original author, Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr, in
>my message.
>
>However, I feel your comment that any gyro that tumbles in an aerobatic
>maneuver should be relegated to a museum is a bit extreme.
>
>I have no way of knowing for sure, but I will bet a milk shake that the
>majority of gyros used in GA aircraft currently flown IFR will tumble. I
>have a KG-102A feeding a KI-525A and an Edo-Aire Mitchell 52D66 artificial
>horizon that are my primary IFR gyros.
>
>Both of those instruments will tumble if aerobatic flight is attempted.
>
>Are you suggesting that all instrumentation of that era should be abandoned?
>
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
>
>
>
>
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