---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/19/03: 58 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:12 AM - Re: Alternator circuit breakers (David Swartzendruber) 2. 05:41 AM - Re: Alternator circuit breakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 05:42 AM - Re: Switch for AH ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:08 AM - Re: Switch for AH ? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 5. 06:29 AM - Re: Alternator circuit breakers (David Swartzendruber) 6. 07:07 AM - Alternator Field Breaker (John Schroeder) 7. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Mic Wiring (Shannon Knoepflein) 8. 08:15 AM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:16 AM - Switch Question (Scott Bilinski) 10. 08:18 AM - Re: Alternator circuit breakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 08:18 AM - MIL spec connectors (Scott Bilinski) 12. 09:04 AM - Re: PS warranty (KahnSG@aol.com) 13. 10:10 AM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker (John Schroeder) 14. 10:39 AM - Ford Motorcraft Alternator (N823ms@aol.com) 15. 11:10 AM - Re: Switch for AH ? (gilles.thesee) 16. 11:24 AM - Solid State Gyro Components (Canyon) 17. 12:26 PM - Battery chargers (Ed Perry) 18. 12:55 PM - Re: AMP CPC or Equivalent Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 01:00 PM - Re: Solid State Gyro Components (Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD) 20. 01:04 PM - Re: Battery chargers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 01:09 PM - Re: Ford Motorcraft Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 01:10 PM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 01:15 PM - Re: Battery chargers (John Schroeder) 24. 01:16 PM - Re: MIL spec connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 01:19 PM - Re: Battery chargers (Cy Galley) 26. 01:20 PM - Re: Switch Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 27. 01:30 PM - Re: 10339 Bryk (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 28. 01:38 PM - Re: shield pigtail (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 29. 01:57 PM - Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 30. 02:48 PM - Re: shield pigtail (Shannon Knoepflein) 31. 02:58 PM - Re: Solid State Gyro Components (Canyon) 32. 03:08 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (John Slade) 33. 03:22 PM - Re: Battery chargers (DHPHKH@aol.com) 34. 03:31 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (David Glauser) 35. 04:12 PM - Re: Solid State Gyro Components (John Loram) 36. 04:13 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection () 37. 04:26 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (BobsV35B@aol.com) 38. 04:31 PM - Re: Solid State Gyro Components (Canyon) 39. 04:40 PM - Re: MIL spec connectors (Scott Bilinski) 40. 04:49 PM - Connectors pins & corrosion (Scott Bilinski) 41. 04:56 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Tony Babb) 42. 05:15 PM - Re: MIL spec connectors (Dan Checkoway) 43. 05:23 PM - PS Engineering. (Rob W M Shipley) 44. 05:23 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (David Glauser) 45. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: AMP CPC or Equivalent Connectors (John Schroeder) 46. 05:59 PM - Re: shield pigtail (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 47. 06:28 PM - Re: Re: 10339 Bryk (John Schroeder) 48. 06:36 PM - Re: Connectors pins & corrosion (RSwanson) 49. 06:37 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 50. 06:47 PM - Re: shield pigtail (Shannon Knoepflein) 51. 06:53 PM - Re: Connectors pins & corrosion (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 52. 07:04 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 53. 07:30 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Sam Buchanan) 54. 07:37 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 55. 08:18 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (Matt Prather) 56. 08:39 PM - Re: Milestone in history of the 'Connection (John Slade) 57. 10:29 PM - Conflictiong Shield Termination (Don Boardman) 58. 10:39 PM - Re: Switch for AH ? (Jerzy Krasinski) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:41 AM PST US From: "David Swartzendruber" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator circuit breakers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" > > > >I have a 60 Amp B&C alternator as the main, and a B&C SD-8 as the backup. > > > >Z-13 shows a 5 amp breaker in each alternator field circuit. I was given > >two new 4 Amp Potter-Brownfield Circuit Breakers. Since the price was > >right, I'd like to use them, if feasible. Will I be chancing nuisance > >trips if I use the lighter breakers? Should I even consider using a 4 > >Amp breaker in either circuit? > > Peak current on the ND alternator is just over 3 amps. > 4A breakers will be fine. > > Bob . . . You'll only be able to use one of your 4A breakers though. The SD-8 doesn't have a field circuit. David Swartzendruber Wichita ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator circuit breakers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:11 AM 2/19/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" > > > > > > > >I have a 60 Amp B&C alternator as the main, and a B&C SD-8 as the >backup. > > > > > >Z-13 shows a 5 amp breaker in each alternator field circuit. I was >given > > >two new 4 Amp Potter-Brownfield Circuit Breakers. Since the price was > > >right, I'd like to use them, if feasible. Will I be chancing nuisance > > >trips if I use the lighter breakers? Should I even consider using a 4 > > >Amp breaker in either circuit? > > > > Peak current on the ND alternator is just over 3 amps. > > 4A breakers will be fine. > > > > Bob . . . > >You'll only be able to use one of your 4A breakers though. The SD-8 >doesn't have a field circuit. But if installed with the recommended OV protections and controls, it too will need a small breaker . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch for AH ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:18 AM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > > > > >So is a switch to run the AI only for intended use a worthwhile idea ? >What about the possibility of leaving the switch off, then forgetting to >cover the giro and including the giro in you're scan. Could cause >disorientation or confusion at a bad time. I'd vote for no switch. Electric gyros I've flow have flags that drop on the face to annunciate power off. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:02 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch for AH ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 2/18/03 11:32:14 PM Central Standard Time, krasinski@direcway.com writes: > This is probably true for gyros with limit stops, but those gyros belong > to a museum. Good contemporary gyros have 360 degrees fredom in every > direction of motion, and the plane rolls and loops around them in > aerobatic figures. Good Morning Jerzy, I don't disagree with your premise as to the capability of many modern gyros, (I mentioned that in the message from which you took your quote), but I would like to state that the section of my message which you quote was not written by me. It was a portion of a message to which I was adding additional data. I do believe I credited the original author, Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr, in my message. However, I feel your comment that any gyro that tumbles in an aerobatic maneuver should be relegated to a museum is a bit extreme. I have no way of knowing for sure, but I will bet a milk shake that the majority of gyros used in GA aircraft currently flown IFR will tumble. I have a KG-102A feeding a KI-525A and an Edo-Aire Mitchell 52D66 artificial horizon that are my primary IFR gyros. Both of those instruments will tumble if aerobatic flight is attempted. Are you suggesting that all instrumentation of that era should be abandoned? Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:48 AM PST US From: "David Swartzendruber" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator circuit breakers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" Comments below > > > >I was given > > > >two new 4 Amp Potter-Brownfield Circuit Breakers. Since the price was > > > >right, I'd like to use them, if feasible. Will I be chancing nuisance > > > >trips if I use the lighter breakers? Should I even consider using a 4 > > > >Amp breaker in either circuit? > > > > > > Peak current on the ND alternator is just over 3 amps. > > > 4A breakers will be fine. > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > >You'll only be able to use one of your 4A breakers though. The SD-8 > >doesn't have a field circuit. > > But if installed with the recommended OV protections > and controls, it too will need a small breaker . . . > > Bob . . . I didn't realize that you were recommending OV protection for the SD-8. Is B&C also recommending it now? Six years ago, we were still saying that the OV/LV sensor would be adequate because an OV condition would happen slowly enough for the pilot to see the flashing light and turn off the SD-8 before any damage was done. Dave in Wichita ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:42 AM PST US From: John Schroeder Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Breaker --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder Bob - On Z-14 and using fuse blocks instead of cb's, where are the power takeoffs for the alternator field breakers? Seems that the wires are unprotected for some length from their sources until they gets to the cb's. Thanks, John Schroeder ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:45 AM PST US From: "Shannon Knoepflein" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mic Wiring --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" I would like to hear Marks comments about the internal circuit protection that the PSE products offer. And, if there is no internal protection for polarity reversal, why not? --- Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Canyon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mic Wiring --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon John Rourke wrote: >Steve, >While I don't necessarily agree with PSE's policy, I think the answer to >the question you ask is obvious: in the case of the purchased harness, >your purchase pays for hand-holding, even if you screw up the other end. >It's kind of an insurance policy. It may well be, but if so, I think a well thought out policy could be presented in a way to make that clear and even optional while maintaining a warranty from literal product defects and not leave the customer with a bad taste over it either. But, from Mark's answer to some of my questions he certainly left me with the impression that his product has no provision for self protection at all. If this is true, it certainly represents an inelegant and archaic fundamental design philosophy, which IMHO, is far worse than a flawed warranty policy. >It may be more than I need, but it's there if I want it. Otherwise I'll >just assume there's no warranty, and make my purchase decision on the >unit, and on the harness, on that basis. That's certainly not an unreasonable approach and one I may some day take myself in lieu of better options. The lack of self protection inherent in the design may well be the primary cause of his concerns over support costs but since he has bailed out I guess I'll never know. Either way, one mark of a flawed policy is an inability to clearly demonstrate the rationale in a manner acceptable to the customers. While it is not my company and they are certainly free to run it any way they like with no flak from me, I am very disappointed in the answers (and lack of answers) I did get. I have no axe to grind here whatsoever, just a prospective customer. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Breaker --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:07 AM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder > > >Bob - > >On Z-14 and using fuse blocks instead of cb's, where are the power >takeoffs for >the alternator field breakers? > >Seems that the wires are unprotected for some length from their sources until >they gets to the cb's. yes, use fusible links in the alternator field leads as shown in figure Z-13 Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:15 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski This engineer guy who seems quite intelligent keeps telling me NOT to use switches rated for AC in a DC application. I have never heard anything like this before. Anyone? Scott Bilinski Eng dept 8220 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator circuit breakers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >I didn't realize that you were recommending OV protection for the SD-8. >Is B&C also recommending it now? Six years ago, we were still saying >that the OV/LV sensor would be adequate because an OV condition would >happen slowly enough for the pilot to see the flashing light and turn >off the SD-8 before any damage was done. Yup. B&C has an install kit for PM altenrators that includes a filter capacitor, ov module, control relay and light fixture. It's their p/n 504-1 and wired per Z-17. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:59 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: AeroElectric-List: MIL spec connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Does anyone know of a good place to buy MIL Spec connectors that dont cost a fortune. I need one that can handle aobut 24 wires at 18g. I want to put in line with a exisiting harness. Scott Bilinski Eng dept 8220 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:08 AM PST US From: KahnSG@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: PS warranty --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KahnSG@aol.com I agreen with Shannon's comments. I think Mark's responses have been very good and fair. Even if the unit is "out of warranty", the flat rates to fix it are very reasonable. Believe me, in my business, even I have some "experts" doing some dumb things while installing parts. Then they want you to "warranty" it. I am redoing my panel now and I am buying a PS audio panel. Steve Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:10 AM PST US From: John Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Breaker --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder I take it that I can run the cb wires off of the stud of their respective fuse blocks? Any better place? >> >> >>Bob - >> >>On Z-14 and using fuse blocks instead of cb's, where are the power >>takeoffs for >>the alternator field breakers? >> >>Seems that the wires are unprotected for some length from their sources until >>they gets to the cb's. > > yes, use fusible links in the alternator field leads as shown > in figure Z-13 > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:09 AM PST US From: N823ms@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ford Motorcraft Alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com Bob: Just found out my engine, IO-520, will have a Ford Motorcraft alternator. Do you know if this has an internal regulator and if so should I bypass it and use the LR-3? If use it, how would I hook it up? Ed ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:54 AM PST US From: "gilles.thesee" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch for AH ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "gilles.thesee" ----- Message d'origine ----- De : : Envoy : mercredi 19 fvrier 2003 15:07 Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch for AH ? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > In a message dated 2/18/03 11:32:14 PM Central Standard Time, > krasinski@direcway.com writes: > > > This is probably true for gyros with limit stops, but those gyros belong > > to a museum. Good contemporary gyros have 360 degrees fredom in every > > direction of motion, and the plane rolls and loops around them in > > aerobatic figures. > > Good Morning Jerzy, > > I don't disagree with your premise as to the capability of many modern gyros, > (I mentioned that in the message from which you took your quote), but I would > like to state that the section of my message which you quote was not written > by me. It was a portion of a message to which I was adding additional data. > I do believe I credited the original author, Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr, in > my message. > Hi all, Just a note to say I'm the one who asked the first question, but I'm not the author of the comments you are citing above. Most interesting thread, though. Cheers, Gilles ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:27 AM PST US From: Canyon Subject: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyro Components --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon I'm interested in locating some pointers to solid state gyro components. I know almost nothing about them but can imagine they may be a spinoff of some of the neat gismos that came out National Semiconductor in the late '70s or early '80s. They had created some interesting little solid state motors back then and which at the time I really didn't pay much attention to other than to think they were really innovative. Am I way off base on the fundamentals of these components? Anybody got a link or pointer? Thanks, Steve ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:36 PM PST US From: "Ed Perry" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery chargers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Perry" Ok Here's the scoop...I have a PC-680 battery in my RV-8. I want to charge it. I have a 12volt /1amp charger. The volt meter in the airplane shows 12.2 volts right now. My hanger mate says that the charger will never get the battery fully charged again. Is this true? If so would it make any difference to use my 10amp charger? Next what does the 1amp rating on the charger mean? Finally with a sealed battery how will I know when it is charged, what voltage should I expect to see? Thanks, Ed Perry eperry@san.rr.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:34 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AMP CPC or Equivalent Connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:25 AM 2/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DHPHKH@aol.com > >Bob and Gang, > Discussion of connectors raises an interesting thought; don't think > I've >ever seen a good article on multi-wire plug connectors, and the selection of >a particular type for a particular application. Electronics guys know the >details because they've worked with them for years. The rest of us pick up a >Digi-Key catalog or similar, find a jaw-dropping selection, and groan. Engineers navigating connector-wilds aren't much happier about it. Connectors are like laundry soap . . . so many choices, so few outstanding reasons for selecting any particular technology. Every year or so, some starry-eyed sales rep would drop a new connector catalog on my desk claiming that THIS product finally answered the needs for everyone and was the greatest connector since they began slicing bread . . . Task 1 for a connector is to make non-permanent connections between one or more strands of wire. Attachment to the wire can be solder, crimp, or mass-termination (like ribbon cables munched onto a 50 wires in a single stroke). Considerations are (1) do you really NEED a connector there? (2) how many strands of wire? (3) what sizes of wire? (4) any extraordinary environmental concerns? (5) any extra ordinary mechanical concerns? > Need examples? When does one use a Molex connector vs a D-sub? D-subs are the first connector I consider for any new application. Check out this picture: http://216.55.140.222/temp/power_dist.jpg This is a "tall" picture . . . so scroll down to see the bottom half. This is an all solid state, power distribution box that routes energy from ground power jack and up to two batteries to 5 different busses in the vehicle. External power input can be as high as 40A continuous . . . yet, if one knows how to make it work, all can be handled though the 20AWG pins of d-sub connectors. This box USED to be about 10" long, 4" thick 5" wide, full of relays and wired up with supper-whizzy connectors. The connectors alone on the previous version cost more than the whole bill of materials for the new version. Here you can see how the solder-right-to- the-board features of D-sub connectors has a profound reduction of labor to install. In this case, although subjected to up to 30g acceleration and short term radiant heating, the D-sub was entirely suited mechanically to the task. The mil-spec, gold-plated pins were no worse (or better) than the gold-plated pins on MUCH more expensive connectors. > Why are (most?) D-sub pins gold plated? I wouldn't say most . . . you can buy tin-plated connectors in D-sub. Gold is preferred because is does not corrode . . . electrical integrity of mated pins is not nearly so likely to degrade with age and use. Gold plated pins are relatively cheap for D-subs because of the huge volume in this particular product. By-the-way, the same 20AWG pin is used in AMP CPC Series II connectors like: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T031/0192.pdf use the same pins as a D-sub . . . so you have two low-cost connector opportunities to use the same tools and a common part number for pins. > Is connector selection as simple as >observing an amperage rating, or is there more to it? I you were wiring anything but voltages up to 28vdc, there might be voltage rating issues but in our market, ANY connector will suffice that can carry the current and accommodate the quantity of wires. If you need to carry more than 4A continuous per pin, consider the CPC Series I connectors in the same catalog can accommodate up to 14AWG wires. Except for firewall penetrations, the AMP CPC connectors for systems teamed with CPC and/or D-subs for avionics would be my connectors of choice. They are low cost, tools are reasonably priced, gold plated pins are available for both styles. Excellent values for our projects. > Why a choice of metal or plastic backshells? Plastic is less expensive and lighter. 90% of my applications use plastic. There are almost never interference issues that justify the metal or conductive plastic backshells. If the connector is used under the cowl, metal backshells are probably advised. > The automotive world uses plastic connector shells >that lock when mated; why don't we use similar connectors in our airplanes? >Or do we, and where do you get them? Mate-n-Lock/Molex style connectors have been used on many single engine airplane beginning in the 60's. >Does a Molex shell offer any wire support, or does it strictly >depend on the insulation crimp of the little sheet copper pin? That's it. No bundle support. Only the insulation grip on each strand. I was skeptical when I first laid eyes on them but in retrospect, they seem to have performed well for decades in spite of no back shell support and non-gold pins. > May seem like dumb questions to some, but... Not at all. Before Internet access reduced the need, my library used to have about 5 feet of shelving dedicated to connectors. Your consternation is understandable. I think you'll find that the two connector series I cited will do a good job for your project 98% of the time. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:24 PM PST US From: Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyro Components --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD I believe most affordable solid state rate gyros are based on a micromachined vibrating rod. When this rod is turned a coriolis like force causes it to distort in a way proportional to the rate of turning. There are laser rate gyros as well, both solid and fiber, but these are usually much more expensive. -----Original Message----- From: Canyon [mailto:steve.canyon@verizon.net] Subject: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyro Components --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon I'm interested in locating some pointers to solid state gyro components. I know almost nothing about them but can imagine they may be a spinoff of some of the neat gismos that came out National Semiconductor in the late '70s or early '80s. They had created some interesting little solid state motors back then and which at the time I really didn't pay much attention to other than to think they were really innovative. Am I way off base on the fundamentals of these components? Anybody got a link or pointer? Thanks, Steve ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery chargers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:27 PM 2/19/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Perry" > >Ok Here's the scoop...I have a PC-680 battery in my RV-8. I want to charge >it. I have a 12volt /1amp charger. The volt meter in the airplane shows >12.2 volts right now. My hanger mate says that the charger will never get >the battery fully charged again. Is this true? If so would it make any >difference to use my 10amp charger? Next what does the 1amp rating on the >charger mean? Finally with a sealed battery how will I know when it is >charged, what voltage should I expect to see? ANY charger that produces more output current than the SELF-DISCHARGE current of the battery will eventually recharge that battery. Since you're talking about an RG battery with a self discharge rate on the order of .001-.002 amps, a 1 amp charger has more than enough snort to do the job. In fact, this charger will bring up a totally dead battery in less than 24 hours. In fact, unless your charger is REGULATED such that end of charge voltage does not exceed 14.0 to 14.5 volts, it will (if left on for very long periods of time) damage the battery. Put a voltmeter on the battery terminals while the charger is plugged in. Come back 24 hours later and see what the voltage is. If higher than 14 volts, I would not use this charger to STORE the battery . . . only to top it off under supervised conditions. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:50 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ford Motorcraft Alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:37 PM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com > >Bob: > > Just found out my engine, IO-520, will have a Ford Motorcraft >alternator. Do you know if this has an internal regulator and if so should I >bypass it and use the LR-3? If use it, how would I hook it up? I suspect it has a built in regulator and needs to be wired as shown in figure Z-24 Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:34 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Breaker --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:09 PM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder > > >I take it that I can run the cb wires off of the stud of their respective >fuse >blocks? Any better place? Yes, hook the terminal end of the fusible link to the fuseblock stud. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:55 PM PST US From: John Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery chargers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder Ed - 12.5 v reading is 100% of charge level 10.5 v reading is 0% of charge level. 13 volts is the dividing line. 13.8 - 14.4 is OK for charging. Anything less than 13 v means that the battery is adding "snort to the system" (discharging), as Bob would put it. I'd use the 10 amp charger. The 1 amp sounds like it is a trickle charger - provided it puts out more than 13 V. John 2/19/2003 3:27:33 PM, "Ed Perry" wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Perry" > >Ok Here's the scoop...I have a PC-680 battery in my RV-8. I want to charge it. I have a 12volt /1amp charger. The volt meter in the airplane shows 12.2 volts right now. My hanger mate says that the charger will never get the battery fully charged again. Is this true? If so would it make any difference to use my 10amp charger? Next what does the 1amp rating on the charger mean? Finally with a sealed battery how will I know when it is charged, what voltage should I expect to see? > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MIL spec connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:18 AM 2/19/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > >Does anyone know of a good place to buy MIL Spec connectors that dont cost >a fortune. I need one that can handle aobut 24 wires at 18g. I want to put >in line with a exisiting harness. What is the "magic" you expect for having purchased mil-spec? Unless you have a customer with some hard over requirement for spec'd connectors, consider the AMP CPC connectors on pages 191-192 of current Digikey catalog. If you gotta have holy-watered connectors, contact Aeroelectric Connector in Torrance, CA (310) 618-3737 and give them a part number. Consider the MS3470 series connectors at http://www.aero-electric.com/26482_2.htm pick your inserts from http://www.aero-electric.com/26482s2_cont_insert.htm Consider too that tools to install/extract pins will be needed. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:31 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery chargers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Place your 1 amp trickle charger on the battery. If it is charging it should show more than the 12.2 volts that it presently shows. Now the real question... Why do you want to charge it? Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Perry" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery chargers > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Perry" > > Ok Here's the scoop...I have a PC-680 battery in my RV-8. I want to charge it. I have a 12volt /1amp charger. The volt meter in the airplane shows 12.2 volts right now. My hanger mate says that the charger will never get the battery fully charged again. Is this true? If so would it make any difference to use my 10amp charger? Next what does the 1amp rating on the charger mean? Finally with a sealed battery how will I know when it is charged, what voltage should I expect to see? > > Thanks, > Ed Perry > eperry@san.rr.com > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:14 AM 2/19/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > >This engineer guy who seems quite intelligent keeps telling me NOT to use >switches rated for AC in a DC application. I have never heard anything like >this before. Anyone? Short answer is yes, heard it a lot from folks who have not bothered to look at the data or to tap the experience base of the industry. Long answer is: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:36 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 10339 Bryk --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Bob I am in the proces of creating a pitch trim rely deck. Can't use MAC > to much load. I was reading you download about this Pitch trim page > 4.2. The elevator trim on the Velocity has a 3amp draw and 5a breaker so > i have a good idea of the size of the relays. Any suggestion on whose to use? The S704-1 relay shown on our website catalog is suited to this task and can be wired per diagram you cited. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s704-1l.jpg > Also have a question on the spike diodes you use in the diagram > I assume 12v but what oHm and amp size would you suggest. > If you have a description that goes whit that diagram how can I get it? Don't have a bill of materials for this. Any diode you can put your hands on will work. 1N4000 series devices mounted like http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/s704inst.jpg this picture shows how to put the diode on when used as an alternator disconnect relay . . . using this relay as pitch-trim relay would be wired similarly. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:59 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: shield pigtail --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:11 PM 2/16/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" > > >Is it absolutely imperative that you connect a pigtail to the shield, or >is it possible/acceptable to twist the shield and crimp a pin to it and >insert it directly into the plug? Give it a try . . . even if you manage to produce a reasonable electrical connection of the pin to an array of twisted wires, I don't think you'll find the end product very pleasing to the eye. I tried it . . . . once . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Got a book back from a gentleman who asked for his money back. Couldn't find where I'd sold it too him. He must have picked it up from one of the dealers. It had a stained front cover which he confessed happened when he left a sandwich laying on it . . . but the interior was still okay. He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly understand something you should know how. But things keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no concern." For the first time in 17 years of publication and something on the order of 10,000 books sold, his was the first instance where an amateur airplane builder said they have no interest knowing how their airplane works . . . truly a milestone in my aviation career. I cut him a check and put it in the mail with a note hoping that his experiences with his airplane were "enjoyable and stress free." I've put his letter on the bulletin board over my desk. It's a "keeper". . . Bob . . . |-------------------------------------------------------| | The man who does not read good books has no advantage | | over the man who cannot read them. | | - Mark Twain | |-------------------------------------------------------| ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:12 PM PST US From: "Shannon Knoepflein" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: shield pigtail --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" Crap. That's how I did them all. Guess I should redo all that. --- Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net >Is it absolutely imperative that you connect a pigtail to the shield, or >is it possible/acceptable to twist the shield and crimp a pin to it and >insert it directly into the plug? Give it a try . . . even if you manage to produce a reasonable electrical connection of the pin to an array of twisted wires, I don't think you'll find the end product very pleasing to the eye. I tried it . . . . once . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:41 PM PST US From: Canyon Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyro Components --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD wrote: >I believe most affordable solid state rate gyros are based on a >micromachined vibrating rod. When this rod is turned a coriolis like >force causes it to distort in a way proportional to the rate of >turning. There are laser rate gyros as well, both solid and fiber, >but these are usually much more expensive. --- Thanks, John. I finally found one such as you describe, made in Japan by SSSG, Inc. Very interesting device -- got to think about playing with some of these now. :-) Thanks again! ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:58 PM PST US From: "John Slade" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly > understand something you should know how. But things > keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning > how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no > concern." Bob, I wouln't dream of sending back my copy of the Connection, even for double the price, but I must admit that I do understand his sentiments. Building an airplane involves a long and steep learning curve. The more we can par down to the essentials what we have to learn, the easier the journey will be. Finding the information relevant to the practical job in hand involves a lot of sifting with the current layout. IMHO you're book would be better as two books. Book 1 - the history of aviation electronics. It's facinating stuff, but I don't need it right now. Book 2 - how to wire you're plane - or ideally "how to wire you're canard pusher". I'd buy book 2, and leave book 1 for background reading when I've got more spare time. For example: I DO want to know why I need an overvoltage protection circuit, how it works and how to wire it up, but I DONT really care how a generator works, or why they were replaced by alternators. Regards, John Slade ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:21 PM PST US From: DHPHKH@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery chargers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DHPHKH@aol.com >> I have a PC-680 battery in my RV-8. I want to charge it.<< Ed, there are good data sheets with battery care info at the Hawker Energy Products website. Dan ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:31:50 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection From: "David Glauser" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser" Yes! I must agree there. A more definite separation of electrical theory from practical details would be nice. I've read and reread The Good Aeroplane Electrical Thingies Book (tm) but I still have a large gap between what I read and what I'm trying to do to the plane. It must be a mental problem of mine, but it sure is frustrating. I wish I had a co-builder who understood all this stuff. dg -----Original Message----- From: John Slade [mailto:sladerj@bellsouth.net] Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly > understand something you should know how. But things > keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning > how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no > concern." Bob, I wouln't dream of sending back my copy of the Connection, even for double the price, but I must admit that I do understand his sentiments. Building an airplane involves a long and steep learning curve. The more we can par down to the essentials what we have to learn, the easier the journey will be. Finding the information relevant to the practical job in hand involves a lot of sifting with the current layout. IMHO you're book would be better as two books. Book 1 - the history of aviation electronics. It's facinating stuff, but I don't need it right now. Book 2 - how to wire you're plane - or ideally "how to wire you're canard pusher". I'd buy book 2, and leave book 1 for background reading when I've got more spare time. For example: I DO want to know why I need an overvoltage protection circuit, how it works and how to wire it up, but I DONT really care how a generator works, or why they were replaced by alternators. Regards, John Slade ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:27 PM PST US From: John Loram Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyro Components --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Loram Analog Devices (www.analogdevices.com) is a primary sourced for MEMS devices. Go to their home page and and look under the heading "Technology Leadership". At the bottom you'll find a link to the MEMS products and technical support for their iMEMS Accelerometers and Gyroscopes. regards, -john- john@loram.org www.loram.org -----Original Message----- From: Canyon [mailto:steve.canyon@verizon.net] Subject: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyro Components --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon I'm interested in locating some pointers to solid state gyro components. I know almost nothing about them but can imagine they may be a spinoff of some of the neat gismos that came out National Semiconductor in the late '70s or early '80s. They had created some interesting little solid state motors back then and which at the time I really didn't pay much attention to other than to think they were really innovative. Am I way off base on the fundamentals of these components? Anybody got a link or pointer? Thanks, Steve ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:17 PM PST US From: <315@cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net> Hi Bob, I bought the Aerolectric Book several years ago and believe it is just right. I have studied it several times over the years and find that it is just the right amount of theory and practice. Since I don't practice electrical engineering I tend to quickly forget the principals involved but I am glad that I can pick up your book and with an evening of reading can quickly regain a grasp of the basics. Then I can proceed with the applications also offered in the book. I feel that I am a better and safer pilot for having learned from your lectures and book. I think we are all extremely priveledged to have you as a resource and encourage you to keep on with your work..... Thanks for all your efforts, Ned ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Slade" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > > > He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly > > understand something you should know how. But things > > keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning > > how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no > > concern." > > Bob, > I wouln't dream of sending back my copy of the Connection, even for double > the price, but I must admit that I do understand his sentiments. Building an > airplane involves a long and steep learning curve. The more we can par down > to the essentials what we have to learn, the easier the journey will be. > Finding the information relevant to the practical job in hand involves a lot > of sifting with the current layout. > > IMHO you're book would be better as two books. Book 1 - the history of > aviation electronics. It's facinating stuff, but I don't need it right now. > Book 2 - how to wire you're plane - or ideally "how to wire you're canard > pusher". I'd buy book 2, and leave book 1 for background reading when I've > got more spare time. For example: I DO want to know why I need an > overvoltage protection circuit, how it works and how to wire it up, but I > DONT really care how a generator works, or why they were replaced by > alternators. > > Regards, > John Slade > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:54 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 2/19/03 6:14:33 PM Central Standard Time, 315@cox.net writes: > I feel that I am a better and safer pilot for having learned from your > lectures and book. I think we are all extremely privileged to have you as a > resource and encourage you to keep on with your work..... > > Good Evening All. I know we are not supposed to use bandwidth to say "Me Too." However, in this case I hope I will be forgiven. The only thing that I have found in the years I have been reading Electric Bob's stuff is that it has gotten better and better. Stay the course! Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:57 PM PST US From: Canyon Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyro Components --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon John Loram wrote: >Analog Devices (www.analogdevices.com) is a primary sourced for MEMS >devices. Go to their home page and >and look under the heading "Technology Leadership". At the bottom you'll >find a link to the MEMS products and technical support for their iMEMS >Accelerometers and Gyroscopes. --- Ahh... thanks very much, John. Sounds like just what I was looking for. AD has been around a long time. Google usually pulls through for me, but it missed on several of these. Guess I needed better search criteria. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:13 PM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MIL spec connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Thanks got one ordered. Should have said Mil-Spec type connector. It was still expensive thought but feel better knowing that I will have a high quality connector in line replacing the piece of garbage I originally installed. At 03:15 PM 2/19/03 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >At 08:18 AM 2/19/2003 -0800, you wrote: >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski >> >>Does anyone know of a good place to buy MIL Spec connectors that dont cost >>a fortune. I need one that can handle aobut 24 wires at 18g. I want to put >>in line with a exisiting harness. > > What is the "magic" you expect for having purchased > mil-spec? Unless you have a customer with some hard > over requirement for spec'd connectors, consider the > AMP CPC connectors on pages 191-192 of current Digikey > catalog. > > If you gotta have holy-watered connectors, contact > Aeroelectric Connector in Torrance, CA > (310) 618-3737 and give them a part number. > > Consider the MS3470 series connectors at > http://www.aero-electric.com/26482_2.htm > pick your inserts from > http://www.aero-electric.com/26482s2_cont_insert.htm > Consider too that tools to install/extract > pins will be needed. > > Bob . . . > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 8220 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:58 PM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: AeroElectric-List: Connectors pins & corrosion --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Cars do not us gold plated pins, nor do they use many sealed connectors in the engine comaprtment, and I have never heard of a problem with corroded connections. With this being said can it be safe to say that high doller connectors are not required in aircraft but your typical cheap Radio Shack $5.00 connector will not cause problems? Scott Bilinski Eng dept 8220 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:35 PM PST US From: "Tony Babb" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Babb" Bob, Don't despair, we've all had occasions when all we want is for someone to tell us what to do and we'll do it, just to make some progress. Then our natural curiosity returns and we get back to being experimenters again. I'm glad all the stuff is in the connection even though I have to admit I skim some of it, eventually I'll have read it all and hopefully absorbed the important stuff.. I haven't started my electrical system yet and probably won't for a year or more - maybe even longer - but I'm lurking here in hope's I'll pick up an understanding and a "feel for .." this stuff when I'm actually doing it. My biggest fear is that there is something I'm just not aware of, or that hasn't registered with me, but I'm hoping it's nothing major and that a Tech counsellor will spot whatever I missed. I especially like your summary comments "..if it were my plane I'd ...". Like one of the other people I'm also building a canard pusher but generally I can figure out what is relevant to my situation and what is not. Cheers and thanks again for all the good work. Cheers, Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Glauser" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser" > > Yes! I must agree there. A more definite separation of electrical theory from practical details would be nice. I've read and reread The Good Aeroplane Electrical Thingies Book (tm) but I still have a large gap between what I read and what I'm trying to do to the plane. It must be a mental problem of mine, but it sure is frustrating. I wish I had a co-builder who understood all this stuff. > > dg > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Slade [mailto:sladerj@bellsouth.net] > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > > > He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly > > understand something you should know how. But things > > keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning > > how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no > > concern." > > Bob, > I wouln't dream of sending back my copy of the Connection, even for double > the price, but I must admit that I do understand his sentiments. Building an > airplane involves a long and steep learning curve. The more we can par down > to the essentials what we have to learn, the easier the journey will be. > Finding the information relevant to the practical job in hand involves a lot > of sifting with the current layout. > > IMHO you're book would be better as two books. Book 1 - the history of > aviation electronics. It's facinating stuff, but I don't need it right now. > Book 2 - how to wire you're plane - or ideally "how to wire you're canard > pusher". I'd buy book 2, and leave book 1 for background reading when I've > got more spare time. For example: I DO want to know why I need an > overvoltage protection circuit, how it works and how to wire it up, but I > DONT really care how a generator works, or why they were replaced by > alternators. > > Regards, > John Slade > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:18 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MIL spec connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > What is the "magic" you expect for having purchased > mil-spec? Unless you have a customer with some hard > over requirement for spec'd connectors, consider the > AMP CPC connectors on pages 191-192 of current Digikey > catalog. Scott, I found these on page 175. Got my catalog a few weeks ago. do not archive )_( Dan ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:32 PM PST US From: "Rob W M Shipley" Subject: AeroElectric-List: PS Engineering. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" Rob Housman has summed up the real reason most of us are now harhouring very negative feelings to PS Engineering. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" I for one am not at all "wondering" why Chris thought that modifying the factory supplied harness would void the warranty. You (PS Engineering) quite clearly do not trust any homebuilder (no matter how well qualified) to assemble the harness from scratch so I (and probably most of the other folks reading your comments) would conclude that you likewise do not consider us homebuilders competent to repair your faulty harness. How do you rationalize that we have the expertise to repair but not to assemble a harness? Further, how do you rationalize your insistence that your audio panel (when sold as an Apollo SL15 or SL10) must be installed with your harness or by a "FAA-certified avionics shop," while UPS trusts us homebuilders to install the entire "full stack" of Apollo radios (except the SL15) and all of the necessary wiring? Let's get real here - the audio panel is decidedly low tech compared to the rest of the stack. Just for laughs, do you consider the holder of a Repairman Certificate to be "a non-certified individual?" I am not raising these points to harass you - I had decided on the Apollo radios, including your audio panel, but this thread has made me reconsider my choice of audio panel. If you start coming up with some better answers and more enlightened warranty policies I (and I think many others) will reconsider (again) and buy your products. Your current policy makes the decision a no brainer. Rob Housman Quite clearly Mark Scheuer is quite unable to consider the possibility that since we first build our aeroplanes and then install complex avionics installations with the help and cooperation of other vendors we are not amused to discover that PS Engineering considers us insufficiently skilled to install their audio panel. This is rather insulting - unless of course the panel is unnecessarily complicated comes with poor installation instructions and is insufficiently robustly designed. The subsequent justifications and spin are not creating a very good impression either. Your choices are simple make it straightforward to install and warranty your product. If you don't other products will be chosen instead and spin (whining) from PS Engineering will continue to irritate and alienate the builders. Rob Rob W M Shipley RV9A N919RV Fuselage. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:53 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection From: "David Glauser" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser" Oh, please don't get the idea that I'm critical of Bob. I would like to state here that without Bob, I don't think my plane would ever fly. I read every message on this forum, and my copy of Bob's book and my AC43-13 are both well-thumbed. I just seem to have a block when it comes to understanding things electrical. I'm not dumb - I design and develop very complex software for a living. I should have no trouble picking up electrical theory. It is relatively straight-forward, being in the physical realm. But I can read about it all day and think it makes sense, and then when I go to the garage and try to do a circuit, I'm at a loss. Not Bob's problem, and I'm way ahead of where I'd be without him. As Tony says, thanks again for all the good work. dg -----Original Message----- From: Tony Babb [mailto:tonybabb@alejandra.net] Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Babb" Bob, Don't despair, we've all had occasions when all we want is for someone to tell us what to do and we'll do it, just to make some progress. Then our natural curiosity returns and we get back to being experimenters again. I'm glad all the stuff is in the connection even though I have to admit I skim some of it, eventually I'll have read it all and hopefully absorbed the important stuff.. I haven't started my electrical system yet and probably won't for a year or more - maybe even longer - but I'm lurking here in hope's I'll pick up an understanding and a "feel for .." this stuff when I'm actually doing it. My biggest fear is that there is something I'm just not aware of, or that hasn't registered with me, but I'm hoping it's nothing major and that a Tech counsellor will spot whatever I missed. I especially like your summary comments "..if it were my plane I'd ...". Like one of the other people I'm also building a canard pusher but generally I can figure out what is relevant to my situation and what is not. Cheers and thanks again for all the good work. Cheers, Tony ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:45 PM PST US From: John Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AMP CPC or Equivalent Connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder > If you need to carry more than 4A continuous > per pin, consider the CPC Series I connectors > in the same catalog can accommodate up to > 14AWG wires. Except for firewall penetrations, > the AMP CPC connectors for systems teamed with > CPC and/or D-subs for avionics would be my > connectors of choice. They are low cost, tools > are reasonably priced, gold plated pins are > available for both styles. Excellent values > for our projects. Bob - You say "except for firewall penetrations...". What kind of connector would you use for this application? Super posting on connectors! Thanks. John ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:09 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: shield pigtail --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:12 PM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" > > >Crap. That's how I did them all. Guess I should redo all that. How did it come out for you? the shielded wire I use here would be VERY hard to twist, insulate and then stuff into the wire grip on a 20AWG pin . . . Are you happy with the outcome? Do you perceive any risks for un-captured strands of the shielding "unwinding" and making undesired connections within the connector? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:27 PM PST US From: John Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 10339 Bryk --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder >> Bob I am in the proces of creating a pitch trim rely deck. Can't use MAC >> to much load. I was reading you download about this Pitch trim page >> 4.2. The elevator trim on the Velocity has a 3amp draw and 5a breaker so >> i have a good idea of the size of the relays. Any suggestion on whose to use? > > The S704-1 relay shown on our website catalog is suited > to this task and can be wired per diagram you cited. Bob - I have a pitch trim sheet from the Lancair IV wirebook that you did some time ago. It is page 4.2. Is this the same one referenced in the posting quoted above? If not where could I find a copy of the page in .dwg format? Thanks, John Schroeder ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:34 PM PST US From: RSwanson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Connectors pins & corrosion --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RSwanson I beg to differ sir. You cannot make such an assumption on the few vehicles the average person sees. I know of several dozen problems with corroded connectors on autos. You have to be either a mechanic or hangout at a wrecking yard to be aware of some of the problems that are really rare, but do exist. R From: "Scott Bilinski" ---snip--- > and I have never heard of a problem with corroded > connections. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >IMHO you're book would be better as two books. Book 1 - the history of >aviation electronics. It's facinating stuff, but I don't need it right now. >Book 2 - how to wire you're plane - or ideally "how to wire you're canard >pusher". I'd buy book 2, and leave book 1 for background reading when I've >got more spare time. For example: I DO want to know why I need an >overvoltage protection circuit, how it works and how to wire it up, but I >DONT really care how a generator works, or why they were replaced by >alternators. Understand . . . and I did consider what you've suggested but after the first few issues of the 'Connection made it to hard copy, it became apparent that the book was more a design manual than a fabrication manual. Tony B and his contemporaries put heavy emphasis on fabrication . . . and the systems they recommended were al-la C-172. I realized that you guys need to be systems designers. My most memorable teachers showed me that you cannot do your best work without understanding the individual components and the history of their evolution. I'll bet the classes of cooking school spend a lot of time discussing various components of discipline, their histories and how they interact with each other before they ever put a match to the stove. It's true that many folks building airplanes would like the Heath Kit approach . . . and for those folks, Van's drawings, Tony's books, and products like the EXPBUS represent the shortest, and perhaps easiest routes to success. Forgive me, but that just doesn't excite me in the least. It's like lifting a 6-cyl out of a '64 Chevy and dropping it into modern vehicle just because it's the machine I understand and can work on. I'd like to believe that many folks who buy the 'Connection and participate on this list are looking for ways to make their projects truly represent the best we know how to do in the year 2003. Having a good working knowledge of the box of "Tinker-Toys" is an essential tool of that task. Given the wide variety of aircraft represented on this list, fabrication information still has to be generic. We've talked about bundling, wire marking, firewall penetrations, panel labeling, etc quite a bit on this list . . . and beyond those kinds of techniques, what is useful and necessary for fabrication? It seems to me that most of our meaty discussions are still very much at the component level with discussions on suitability, performance, costs, pitfalls, etc. None of this is very cook-bookish for those who yearn for the box full of parts and a check-box set of installation instructions. I AM interested in suggestions. For example, what particular fabrication techniques would anyone think should be in the 'Connection? When the 'Connection first started, illustrations were laborious. Heavily illustrated instructions were easier to do on the website; hence all the comic books and other how-to pieces. My sense is that these things are best left on the website where the cost of production and distribution of a dozen, high rez color photos and text is a tiny fraction of that required to putting ink to paper on 1,000 copies of a book. Your comment about, "book 1 for background reading when I've got more spare time" caught my attention. It's been my experience as student, teacher and practitioner that the "spare time" almost never comes later. If it's not part of the curriculum, the follow-up will rarely happen, if ever. You folks are the customers. The 'Connection and the website are as much yours as they are mine. Let's push them ahead together. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:08 PM PST US From: "Shannon Knoepflein" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: shield pigtail --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" Well, I didn't think the outcome was too bad, or I guess it would have caught my attention before. It didn't really sink in until I saw your post and pix on the subject. The shield twisted without much effort, and the pin seemed to grip well. However, I didn't insulate them with heatshrink like I "at least" should have. As far as being happy...what you show is a lot nicer now that I think about it, but I'm not sure I really perceive any problems though. I think I'll probably go back and heat shrink them all, and call it good. That should keep any strands from getting their own ideas.... -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: shield pigtail --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:12 PM 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" > > >Crap. That's how I did them all. Guess I should redo all that. How did it come out for you? the shielded wire I use here would be VERY hard to twist, insulate and then stuff into the wire grip on a 20AWG pin . . . Are you happy with the outcome? Do you perceive any risks for un-captured strands of the shielding "unwinding" and making undesired connections within the connector? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:44 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Connectors pins & corrosion --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:49 PM 2/19/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > >Cars do not us gold plated pins, nor do they use many sealed connectors in >the engine comaprtment, and I have never heard of a problem with corroded >connections. With this being said can it be safe to say that high doller >connectors are not required in aircraft but your typical cheap Radio Shack >$5.00 connector will not cause problems? I've had perhaps a dozen "incidents" involving poor contact in automotive connectors with the first one rising out of the ashes of a charred firewall connector on my '59 Chevy and the most spectacular being an AMC Pacer that kept trying to immolate itself via a very poor fuseblock design. I'd judge that the most difficult to find and fix electrical problems have involved connector quality issues and represent perhaps 1/4 of all failures I've personally dealt with. Of course, the automotive world used to use brass-on-brass connectors . . . at least they're adding some plating and even a degree of environmental sealing in modern connectors. It's a sure bet that the gold-plated is better than tin-plated is better than bare-brass connectors with "Radio Shack" parts falling someplace between the extremes. It can very much depend on where you live. Our dirt cheap speakers on the Cessna SE aircraft wouldn't last 6-months in Opa Locka, FL but lasted forever in Tucson, AZ. For myself, it kinda boils down to "if you haven't got the time/dollars to do it right the first time, where do you find the time/dollars to do it over later?" The % increase in overall cost of the system to use gold plated pins in all my airframe harnesses instead of something cheaper is trivial. I'd call this simple, reasonably priced risk management. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >Good Evening All. > >I know we are not supposed to use bandwidth to say "Me Too." However, in >this case I hope I will be forgiven. The only thing that I have found in the >years I have been reading Electric Bob's stuff is that it has gotten better >and better. > >Stay the course! > >Happy Skies, > >Old Bob . . and all of you have participated in this endeavor. I've learned more about advancing the state of the art in the last 15 years of the 'Connection than I did in the first 25 years of hearding new products through the certification traps. I've learned new things because you guys asked questions that fertilized a search for answers. All of those Z-figures evolved because there were opportunities unfettered by tradition and regulation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:25 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > Got a book back from a gentleman who asked for his money > back. Couldn't find where I'd sold it too him. He must > have picked it up from one of the dealers. It had a stained > front cover which he confessed happened when he left > a sandwich laying on it . . . but the interior was still > okay. > > He wrote, "I'm tired of learning how. I know to properly > understand something you should know how. But things > keep changing, what's the use? I am tired of learning > how. Just show me and I will do it. Why it is, is no > concern." > > For the first time in 17 years of publication and > something on the order of 10,000 books sold, > his was the first instance where an amateur airplane > builder said they have no interest knowing how their > airplane works . . . truly a milestone in my aviation > career. > > I cut him a check and put it in the mail with a note > hoping that his experiences with his airplane were > "enjoyable and stress free." I've put his letter on the > bulletin board over my desk. It's a "keeper". . . > > Bob . . . Bob, the attitude of your reader is one that I have personally been confronted with by a few readers of my website, "The RV Journal". One of the most enjoyable aspects of a fly-in, major or minor, is the opportunity for me to meet builders who express their appreciation for the effort I expended on documenting the construction of my RV-6. However, I have been discouraged to find that there is a segment of builders who really have no interest in "doing their homework" as most of us find necessary and challenging; they just want somebody to "tell them what to do". This attitude concerns me because I have questioned a few builders about the choices they made during construction and the reply was "I just did it because that is what I read on your website". The fact that their mission profile or flight experience was different from mine, or the possibility that my reasoning may have been flawed (!?!) was apparently not a factor in their decision to parrot what they found on a builder's website. What is especially discouraging is that a very few builders have seemed to take exception to my suggestion that they need to research certain areas of construction to make sure the plane is best suited to their needs. Fortunately, I am describing a very small segment of the builders I have met. However, as more and more folk enter the world of custom-built aircraft, a world many of them would have never considered a few years ago, I suspect the segment of builders who wish to replace personal education with a "cookbook mentality" will become larger. It may very well be an extension of our society's wish to achieve instant gratification, but the construction and safe operation of an airplane is not a good endeavor to pursue by blindly following other people's ideas without understanding the rational of engineering factors. Thanks again for your continued efforts to bring us up to speed on electrical theory and practice; and especially thank you for encouraging innovative thought outside the conventional box! :-) Sam Buchanan http://thervjournal.com ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:25 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:13 PM 2/19/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net> > >Hi Bob, > >I bought the Aerolectric Book several years ago and believe it is just >right. I have studied it several times over the years and find that it is >just the right amount of theory and practice. Since I don't practice >electrical engineering I tend to quickly forget the principals involved but >I am glad that I can pick up your book and with an evening of reading can >quickly regain a grasp of the basics. Then I can proceed with the >applications also offered in the book. > >I feel that I am a better and safer pilot for having learned from your >lectures and book. I think we are all extremely priveledged to have you as a >resource and encourage you to keep on with your work..... > >Thanks for all your efforts, Thank you . . . I'm pleased that you find the work useful enough to patronize. We're helping each other! It occurred to me that my "Milestone" post may have been interpreted as being disappointed that the customer didn't find the 'Connection to be a valuable resource . . . which was NOT what surprised me. I was most startled by his assertion that he didn't want nor did he care to know how things worked. Whether his information source of choice was the 'Connection or any other didn't matter. The fact that he was making a conscious effort to be a knob twister and lever puller largely ignorant of the results of his actions gave me the shivers. I'm truly concerned for his future as a pilot. I think many folks like this are star performers in many dark-n-stormy-night situations with too many not being around write the story down for AOPA Pilot when the sun comes up. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:56 PM PST US From: Matt Prather Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Prather Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >I've learned new things because you guys asked questions > that fertilized a search for answers. All of those > Hahahaha!! Bob's calling our questions 'fertilizer.' What will he think of next??? :) > Z-figures evolved because there were opportunities > unfettered by tradition and regulation. > > Bob . . . > > do not archive Matt (fertilizer maker) Prather N34RD ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:15 PM PST US From: "John Slade" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Milestone in history of the 'Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > The fact that he was making > a conscious effort to be a knob twister and lever > puller largely ignorant of the results of his actions > gave me the shivers. Bob, I think perhaps you're interpreting "knob twister's" words too strongly. While I understand his sentiment, I do want to understand the inner working and function of EVERY gizmo that actually GOES IN my machine and why it's there instead of various alternatives. What I don't feel I need to know is how that gizmo evolved through layers of now extinct technology. Time spent researching what we builders do has to be balanced against time spent actually doing things. Get the balance wrong and there's danger of our not getting to "pull the levers" until after the gizmos on the end have joined the rows of extinct gizmos before them. John Slade ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:37 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Conflictiong Shield Termination From: Don Boardman --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman Hi Bob, The shields for the mic and phone inputs and then the outputs to the com radios for my PMA4000 Audio Panel/Intercom are shown terminated to "Lo" at the intercom only. Fine. The outputs are shown going to Com 1 and Com 2 and the shield is left unconnected. The unswitched audio connection to the GPS is also shown grounded only at the intercom, fine. The problem ... the wire diagram for the Icom radios show the mic and phone shields making a connection at the radio, actually it looks like they are using a single shielded conductor and using the shield as the ground/return wire. The GPS also shows the audio to the intercom with the shield terminated at the GPS end. Do I need to make some phone calls? Your thoughts, Don ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:20 PM PST US From: Jerzy Krasinski Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch for AH ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski Bob, All right, sometimes just to make a point stronger we get a bit extreme. But I would consider risky to go into a heavy turbulence with a gyro with a limit stop. And for sure one should not attempt aerobatics with these gyros running. Tumbling them would not extend their lifetime. My gyro is an old cheap electrical postcommunist gyro LUN1202 made in Czechoslovakia, it does not have the limit stops, but it does not have the third frame, so it is not considered a true aerobatic gyro. Nevertheless, it takes a lot of effort to get it tumbled. After many attempts eventually I managed to tumble it by pushing rudder while going vertically up. Going up or down are the situations when the two frames of the gyro go into one plane. That position does not cause troubles if you go straight, it works fine in loops. But if you push the rudder while vertical you might get a trouble. I doubt if I ever get in such a position due to a turbulence, and I always felt secure with it. It still works all right, and now I am installing it into my KIS Cruiser. This is not an aerobatic plane so no plans for vertical flying. I also have a Czechoslovakian Directional Gyro LUN 1272. Jerzy BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > >In a message dated 2/18/03 11:32:14 PM Central Standard Time, >krasinski@direcway.com writes: > > > >>This is probably true for gyros with limit stops, but those gyros belong >>to a museum. Good contemporary gyros have 360 degrees fredom in every >>direction of motion, and the plane rolls and loops around them in >>aerobatic figures. >> >> > >Good Morning Jerzy, > >I don't disagree with your premise as to the capability of many modern gyros, >(I mentioned that in the message from which you took your quote), but I would >like to state that the section of my message which you quote was not written >by me. It was a portion of a message to which I was adding additional data. >I do believe I credited the original author, Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr, in >my message. > >However, I feel your comment that any gyro that tumbles in an aerobatic >maneuver should be relegated to a museum is a bit extreme. > >I have no way of knowing for sure, but I will bet a milk shake that the >majority of gyros used in GA aircraft currently flown IFR will tumble. I >have a KG-102A feeding a KI-525A and an Edo-Aire Mitchell 52D66 artificial >horizon that are my primary IFR gyros. > >Both of those instruments will tumble if aerobatic flight is attempted. > >Are you suggesting that all instrumentation of that era should be abandoned? > >Happy Skies, > >Old Bob > > > >