Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: Halon (Ron Raby)
2. 06:05 AM - Re: Re: Halon (Alex Peterson)
3. 06:13 AM - (Gary Casey)
4. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: Halon (Jerzy Krasinski)
5. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Halon (David Carter)
6. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: Halon (John Slade)
7. 07:32 AM - Re: BRIGHT FLASHING LED'S? Where do we get (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: Halon (Ron Raby)
9. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Halon (Larry Bowen)
10. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Halon (David Carter)
11. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: Halon (DHPHKH@aol.com)
12. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Halon (Canyon)
13. 09:20 AM - PC/Monitor noise on Recording Equipment (Jim Pack)
14. 10:34 AM - Microair Transponder harness and encoder package??? (ccadkins)
15. 10:34 AM - Firewall Wire Penetration (Julia)
16. 11:48 AM - Re: Firewall Wire Penetration (Steve Sampson)
17. 12:01 PM - Re: Firewall Wire Penetration (Julia)
18. 12:25 PM - Re: Firewall Wire Penetration (Bruce Gray)
19. 12:49 PM - Re: Firewall Wire Penetration (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 12:54 PM - Re: Firewall Wire Penetration (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 12:58 PM - Re: Hall Effect Ammeters (jmfpublic@attbi.com)
22. 01:10 PM - Re: PC/Monitor noise on Recording Equipment (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 01:10 PM - Re: Firewall Wire Penetration (Scott Bilinski)
24. 02:35 PM - Re: Engine Startup issues... (Jerry2DT@aol.com)
25. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: Engine Startup issues... (Matt Prather)
26. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: Hall Effect Ammeters (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 07:41 PM - Re: Firewall Wire Penetration (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: Engine Startup issues... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
29. 08:05 PM - Hall effect ammeters (BAKEROCB@aol.com)
30. 08:46 PM - Re: Hall effect ammeters (David Swartzendruber)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
Where do you get these halon systems? Does the bottle get mounted remote
from the firewall and then plumbed through a fitting in the firewall? Is the
acuation of these systems mechanical or electrical?
Thanks
Ron Raby
N829R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerzy Krasinski" <krasinski@direcway.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski
<krasinski@direcway.com>
>
> Actually halons do much more than just "displacing oxygen and removing
> enormous amounts of heat through evaporation". Halons absorb a lot of
> radiation from the flame, mostly in the infrared, and they prevent
> excitation of molecules ahead of the front of the flame. Excited
> molecules of fuel and oxygen have electrons far away from the core of
> the molecule, and such excited molecules are very eager to get involved
> in a transfer of these electrons to other molecules, which is the base
> of chemical reactions. Excitation of molecules ahead of the flame by
> radiation heating is the basic mechanism for a flame propagation.
> Chemically inert halons absorbing radiation prevent excitation of fuel
> and oxygen molecules ahead of the front of the flame, and they make
> propagation of the flame difficult or impossible. Even as little as a
> few percent of halon stops propagation of the flame which makes it easy
> to blow it off - halons are extremely efficient as fire
> extinguishers. You would need much higher concentration for a
> conventional displacement of oxygen like in a CO2 extinguisher. A few
> percent concentration would not make any difference if the displacement
> was the main mechanism. Classical cooling by small amounts of halon is
> not that important in fighting fire because chemical reaction of burning
> fuel generates huge amounts of heat, and cold gasoline vapor burns quite
> well anyway. I worked on halons some thirty years ago.
> Jerzy
>
> Alex Peterson wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
<alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> >
> >I talked to an engineer at the outfit that makes halotron, and asked him
> >what the scoop was between halon and halotron. He said that pound for
> >pound, halotron is about 80% (going on memory here, but the number is
> >close) as effective in fire fighting as halon. Shouldn't be any
> >more/less safe than halon for us, but it makes the greenies happy. Of
> >course, we need to burn more fuel to lift the extra pound of halotron
> >around, so I guess there are no free lunches. The halon that is still
> >available is from reclaimed sources, as it is no longer legal to
> >manufacture halon. Either one puts out fires by displacing oxygen and
> >removing enormous amounts of heat through evaporation.
> >
> >Alex Peterson
> >Maple Grove, MN
> >RV6-A N66AP 265 hours, dragging an extra pound of extinguisher with the
> >whole way
> >www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
>
>
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
Jerzy, thanks for the clarification. I was just going on what the
engineer at the company that makes halotron extinguishers (and
previously halon) said. Silly me. Everything is always more
interesting at a second look.
Alex
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski
> --> <krasinski@direcway.com>
>
> Actually halons do much more than just "displacing oxygen
> and removing
> enormous amounts of heat through evaporation". Halons absorb
> a lot of
> radiation from the flame, mostly in the infrared, and they prevent
> excitation of molecules ahead of the front of the flame. Excited
> molecules of fuel and oxygen have electrons far away from the core of
> the molecule, and such excited molecules are very eager to
> get involved
> in a transfer of these electrons to other molecules, which
> is the base
> of chemical reactions. Excitation of molecules ahead of the flame by
> radiation heating is the basic mechanism for a flame propagation.
> Chemically inert halons absorbing radiation prevent
> excitation of fuel
> and oxygen molecules ahead of the front of the flame, and they make
> propagation of the flame difficult or impossible. Even as
> little as a
> few percent of halon stops propagation of the flame which
> makes it easy
> to blow it off - halons are extremely efficient as fire
> extinguishers. You would need much higher concentration for a
> conventional displacement of oxygen like in a CO2
> extinguisher. A few
> percent concentration would not make any difference if the
> displacement
> was the main mechanism. Classical cooling by small amounts of
> halon is
> not that important in fighting fire because chemical reaction
> of burning
> fuel generates huge amounts of heat, and cold gasoline vapor
> burns quite
> well anyway. I worked on halons some thirty years ago.
> Jerzy
>
> Alex Peterson wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
> >--> <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> >
> >I talked to an engineer at the outfit that makes halotron, and asked
> >him what the scoop was between halon and halotron. He said
> that pound
> >for pound, halotron is about 80% (going on memory here, but
> the number
> >is
> >close) as effective in fire fighting as halon. Shouldn't be any
> >more/less safe than halon for us, but it makes the greenies
> happy. Of
> >course, we need to burn more fuel to lift the extra pound of halotron
> >around, so I guess there are no free lunches. The halon
> that is still
> >available is from reclaimed sources, as it is no longer legal to
> >manufacture halon. Either one puts out fires by displacing
> oxygen and
> >removing enormous amounts of heat through evaporation.
> >
> >Alex Peterson
> >Maple Grove, MN
> >RV6-A N66AP 265 hours, dragging an extra pound of extinguisher with
> >the whole way www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ==========
> Matronics Forums.
> ==========
> List members.
> ==========
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
<<Okay, has anyone ever heard or experienced a case where
the oil pump on an engine died while the airplane was
parked?
Really CONCERNED about the oil pressure thing?
How about an oil pressure operated hour-meter
with a double-throw pressure switch. Use
the low-pressure contact to light a LOW OIL P
enunciator. This will go out immediately
upon sensing that the oil pump is working and
let one breathe easy while some doggy electronics
decides to go to work.
Are we making design and operating decisions
based on physics . . . or simply accommodating
yet another tidbit of poor instruction
carved into aviator's gray matter for decades?
Bob . . .>>
I think there are two likely reasons for no oil pressure, both making
themselves known at first start-up: First is no oil and that is most likely
to happen on initial start-up (someone forgot to refill). The other is a
failure of the pump to prime as was posted earlier. This could be from a
combination of a worn pump and servicing which allowed air into the suction
line, maybe from cleaning the suction screen. There are also cases of a
leak in the suction line, which causes no problem during operation, but can
prevent the pump from priming if it's worn or has been inactive for a long
time, allowing oil to drain. What to do? Bob probably has the only logical
idea and that is to install a low oil pressure light with a mechanical
switch. That's what I plan to do.
Gary Casey
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski@direcway.com>
Ron,
Halons fire extinguishers are harder and harder to get, but there are
still many of them in industrial supply fire extinguisher houses. Do
not bother to look for them in Kmart or Sears. Check telephone book of a
bigger city in your area under fire extinguisher, look for something
that might be a place specialized in fire extinguishers and give them a
call.
Another option is to check racing car supply house.
Probably the easiest and most efficient way is to type "halon" on EBAY
search. You will get a page or two of halon fire extinguishers offered
for sale, some big, some small, and chances are that none of them
matches your needs. When you get these listings check other items
offered by these sellers. If you see several extinguishers offered by
the same guy, chances are that he is a dealer, so contact him and ask
for the type and size you want.
There are several different models of halon extinguishers, a standard
looking extinguisher with an operating handle for installation on a
wall , remotely activated (with a cable) halon bottles for racing cars,
and automatic fire extinguishers activated when temperature increases
above a set point, for use in boat engine compartments. They come in
all spectrum of sizes anywhere from around 2.5 pound to sky is the limit.
Jerzy
Ron Raby wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby"
<ronr@advanceddesign.com>
>
>
>Where do you get these halon systems? Does the bottle get mounted remote
>from the firewall and then plumbed through a fitting in the firewall?
Is the
>acuation of these systems mechanical or electrical?
>
>Thanks
>
>Ron Raby
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
This web site has the most info: http://www.h3r.com/ Has lots of
informative articles explaining Halon and its use and legal status.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby"
<ronr@advanceddesign.com>
>
>
> Where do you get these halon systems? Does the bottle get mounted remote
> from the firewall and then plumbed through a fitting in the firewall? Is
the
> acuation of these systems mechanical or electrical?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ron Raby
>
> N829R
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerzy Krasinski" <krasinski@direcway.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski
> <krasinski@direcway.com>
> >
> > Actually halons do much more than just "displacing oxygen and removing
> > enormous amounts of heat through evaporation". Halons absorb a lot of
> > radiation from the flame, mostly in the infrared, and they prevent
> > excitation of molecules ahead of the front of the flame. Excited
> > molecules of fuel and oxygen have electrons far away from the core of
> > the molecule, and such excited molecules are very eager to get involved
> > in a transfer of these electrons to other molecules, which is the base
> > of chemical reactions. Excitation of molecules ahead of the flame by
> > radiation heating is the basic mechanism for a flame propagation.
> > Chemically inert halons absorbing radiation prevent excitation of fuel
> > and oxygen molecules ahead of the front of the flame, and they make
> > propagation of the flame difficult or impossible. Even as little as a
> > few percent of halon stops propagation of the flame which makes it easy
> > to blow it off - halons are extremely efficient as fire
> > extinguishers. You would need much higher concentration for a
> > conventional displacement of oxygen like in a CO2 extinguisher. A few
> > percent concentration would not make any difference if the displacement
> > was the main mechanism. Classical cooling by small amounts of halon is
> > not that important in fighting fire because chemical reaction of burning
> > fuel generates huge amounts of heat, and cold gasoline vapor burns quite
> > well anyway. I worked on halons some thirty years ago.
> > Jerzy
> >
> > Alex Peterson wrote:
> >
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
> <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> > >
> > >I talked to an engineer at the outfit that makes halotron, and asked
him
> > >what the scoop was between halon and halotron. He said that pound for
> > >pound, halotron is about 80% (going on memory here, but the number is
> > >close) as effective in fire fighting as halon. Shouldn't be any
> > >more/less safe than halon for us, but it makes the greenies happy. Of
> > >course, we need to burn more fuel to lift the extra pound of halotron
> > >around, so I guess there are no free lunches. The halon that is still
> > >available is from reclaimed sources, as it is no longer legal to
> > >manufacture halon. Either one puts out fires by displacing oxygen and
> > >removing enormous amounts of heat through evaporation.
> > >
> > >Alex Peterson
> > >Maple Grove, MN
> > >RV6-A N66AP 265 hours, dragging an extra pound of extinguisher with
the
> > >whole way
> > >www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
>
>
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> contact him and ask for the type and size you want.
Ah, what might that be?
I've been following this discussion with interest. I'd like to mount a
remotly activated extinguisher somewhere under my (canard pusher) cowl. What
size and type would I need?
Regards,
John Slade
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: BRIGHT FLASHING LED'S? Where do we get |
them?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:36 AM 3/6/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Where can I get bright flashing LED's - any ideas?
>
>must be high intensity, mounted in a solid casing - not a flimsy
>unit. maybe mounts in a 3/8 in hole??? What do they use on Fighter
>Jets? Where can we get something the military might use in this
>case? I would prefer the flashing be something built into the LED -
>rather than an external flasher - they do make them this way.
Flashing LED's are around but account for a VERY
TINY proportion of the market . . . you're not
likely to find a flasher added to the new super-bright
devices.
As to mounting, this has always been a challenge with
the little two-leaded, plastic beasties. One solution
developed here in our shops is illustrated at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
Bob . . .
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
thanks David, I looked around and found one from a race car supply house
http://www.howeracing.com/cockpit/cockpit4/indexbottle.htm
They have 2lb and 5lb models. Do you know what size would be needed?
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
<dcarter@datarecall.net>
>
> This web site has the most info: http://www.h3r.com/ Has lots of
> informative articles explaining Halon and its use and legal status.
>
> David Carter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby"
> <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
> >
> >
> > Where do you get these halon systems? Does the bottle get mounted remote
> > from the firewall and then plumbed through a fitting in the firewall? Is
> the
> > acuation of these systems mechanical or electrical?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Ron Raby
> >
> > N829R
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jerzy Krasinski" <krasinski@direcway.com>
> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
> >
> >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski
> > <krasinski@direcway.com>
> > >
> > > Actually halons do much more than just "displacing oxygen and
removing
> > > enormous amounts of heat through evaporation". Halons absorb a lot of
> > > radiation from the flame, mostly in the infrared, and they prevent
> > > excitation of molecules ahead of the front of the flame. Excited
> > > molecules of fuel and oxygen have electrons far away from the core of
> > > the molecule, and such excited molecules are very eager to get
involved
> > > in a transfer of these electrons to other molecules, which is the
base
> > > of chemical reactions. Excitation of molecules ahead of the flame by
> > > radiation heating is the basic mechanism for a flame propagation.
> > > Chemically inert halons absorbing radiation prevent excitation of fuel
> > > and oxygen molecules ahead of the front of the flame, and they make
> > > propagation of the flame difficult or impossible. Even as little as a
> > > few percent of halon stops propagation of the flame which makes it
easy
> > > to blow it off - halons are extremely efficient as fire
> > > extinguishers. You would need much higher concentration for a
> > > conventional displacement of oxygen like in a CO2 extinguisher. A
few
> > > percent concentration would not make any difference if the
displacement
> > > was the main mechanism. Classical cooling by small amounts of halon is
> > > not that important in fighting fire because chemical reaction of
burning
> > > fuel generates huge amounts of heat, and cold gasoline vapor burns
quite
> > > well anyway. I worked on halons some thirty years ago.
> > > Jerzy
> > >
> > > Alex Peterson wrote:
> > >
> > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
> > <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> > > >
> > > >I talked to an engineer at the outfit that makes halotron, and asked
> him
> > > >what the scoop was between halon and halotron. He said that pound
for
> > > >pound, halotron is about 80% (going on memory here, but the number is
> > > >close) as effective in fire fighting as halon. Shouldn't be any
> > > >more/less safe than halon for us, but it makes the greenies happy.
Of
> > > >course, we need to burn more fuel to lift the extra pound of halotron
> > > >around, so I guess there are no free lunches. The halon that is
still
> > > >available is from reclaimed sources, as it is no longer legal to
> > > >manufacture halon. Either one puts out fires by displacing oxygen
and
> > > >removing enormous amounts of heat through evaporation.
> > > >
> > > >Alex Peterson
> > > >Maple Grove, MN
> > > >RV6-A N66AP 265 hours, dragging an extra pound of extinguisher with
> the
> > > >whole way
> > > >www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I think I remember seeing halon extinguishers in more manageable sizes at
Wicks, ACS, etc. 1.5, 3 and 5 pounds maybe. Aren't those sizes more
typical of what you see in small aircraft?
--
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
2003: The Year of Flight!
Ron Raby said:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby"
> <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
>
> thanks David, I looked around and found one from a race car supply house
> http://www.howeracing.com/cockpit/cockpit4/indexbottle.htm
>
> They have 2lb and 5lb models. Do you know what size would be needed?
>
> Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
>
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
> <dcarter@datarecall.net>
>>
>> This web site has the most info: http://www.h3r.com/ Has lots of
>> informative articles explaining Halon and its use and legal status.
>>
>> David Carter
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
No, don't know how much needed for engine compartment wands/spray nozzle
system, not in cockpit (probably defer to other fellow's comments and not
flood the cockpit - probably just use the hand held to point it where it
needs to go.)
I'd think "copy what the race cars are doing". How big are their systems?
If you find out, from the racing supply store, let us know the range of
options or opinions.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby"
<ronr@advanceddesign.com>
>
> thanks David, I looked around and found one from a race car supply house
> http://www.howeracing.com/cockpit/cockpit4/indexbottle.htm
>
> They have 2lb and 5lb models. Do you know what size would be needed?
>
> Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
> <dcarter@datarecall.net>
> >
> > This web site has the most info: http://www.h3r.com/ Has lots of
> > informative articles explaining Halon and its use and legal status.
> >
> > David Carter
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
> >
> >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby"
> > <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > Where do you get these halon systems? Does the bottle get mounted
remote
> > > from the firewall and then plumbed through a fitting in the firewall?
Is
> > the
> > > acuation of these systems mechanical or electrical?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Ron Raby
> > >
> > > N829R
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jerzy Krasinski" <krasinski@direcway.com>
> > > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski
> > > <krasinski@direcway.com>
> > > >
> > > > Actually halons do much more than just "displacing oxygen and
> removing
> > > > enormous amounts of heat through evaporation". Halons absorb a lot
of
> > > > radiation from the flame, mostly in the infrared, and they prevent
> > > > excitation of molecules ahead of the front of the flame. Excited
> > > > molecules of fuel and oxygen have electrons far away from the core
of
> > > > the molecule, and such excited molecules are very eager to get
> involved
> > > > in a transfer of these electrons to other molecules, which is the
> base
> > > > of chemical reactions. Excitation of molecules ahead of the flame by
> > > > radiation heating is the basic mechanism for a flame propagation.
> > > > Chemically inert halons absorbing radiation prevent excitation of
fuel
> > > > and oxygen molecules ahead of the front of the flame, and they make
> > > > propagation of the flame difficult or impossible. Even as little as
a
> > > > few percent of halon stops propagation of the flame which makes it
> easy
> > > > to blow it off - halons are extremely efficient as fire
> > > > extinguishers. You would need much higher concentration for a
> > > > conventional displacement of oxygen like in a CO2 extinguisher. A
> few
> > > > percent concentration would not make any difference if the
> displacement
> > > > was the main mechanism. Classical cooling by small amounts of halon
is
> > > > not that important in fighting fire because chemical reaction of
> burning
> > > > fuel generates huge amounts of heat, and cold gasoline vapor burns
> quite
> > > > well anyway. I worked on halons some thirty years ago.
> > > > Jerzy
> > > >
> > > > Alex Peterson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
> > > <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> > > > >
> > > > >I talked to an engineer at the outfit that makes halotron, and
asked
> > him
> > > > >what the scoop was between halon and halotron. He said that pound
> for
> > > > >pound, halotron is about 80% (going on memory here, but the number
is
> > > > >close) as effective in fire fighting as halon. Shouldn't be any
> > > > >more/less safe than halon for us, but it makes the greenies happy.
> Of
> > > > >course, we need to burn more fuel to lift the extra pound of
halotron
> > > > >around, so I guess there are no free lunches. The halon that is
> still
> > > > >available is from reclaimed sources, as it is no longer legal to
> > > > >manufacture halon. Either one puts out fires by displacing oxygen
> and
> > > > >removing enormous amounts of heat through evaporation.
> > > > >
> > > > >Alex Peterson
> > > > >Maple Grove, MN
> > > > >RV6-A N66AP 265 hours, dragging an extra pound of extinguisher
with
> > the
> > > > >whole way
> > > > >www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DHPHKH@aol.com
Interesting thread. May I help, ahhh, fuel the discussion?
A cabin or engine compartment fire doesn't start without fuel, oxygen,
and an ignition source. Let's assume those elements are present and the fire
is burning. Trigger the halon, and the fire (hopefully) goes out.
Following the Halon deployment, the cabin must be ventilated to sustain
the humans. The engine cowl is self ventilating. All three conditions
necessary for fire are again quite likely present. What now?
"Ah" you say, "it depends!". Start with a fire under the cowl. Yes, if
it was a fuel fire, and you've shut the firewall feed, and most of the
spilled fuel has already burned, it's just a glider ride. If the ignition
source was a breached exhaust pipe and you've shut down the engine, you may
not have an ignition source. Other than these two circumstances, shouldn't
we expect the fire to re-ignite?
Fire in the cockpit: What fuel and ignition source could you expect?
Leaky fuel line, and the pilot is a chain smoker? If you didn't use vinyl
wire, wire insulation is unlikely to be a fuel source supporting open flame.
The key issue with an electrical "fire" is smoke, not flame, and Halon is
useless in this regard. If anything it makes things it worse; the issue is a
pilot breathing problem.
I'm thinking Halon in the engine compartment might be useful under
limited conditions. It's sorta like a parachute, good to have, might save
your butt if everything goes right. I can't see any reason to put Halon in
the cockpit. I'd suggest that most builders would be better off to put the
money and maintenance time into better firewall systems, fire/smoke retardant
interior materials, careful electrical system design/installation, and some
thought.
Want some examples? Consider the popular practice of gluing an
insulation blanket to the cabin side of a metal firewall. Consider what
happens when the metal is cherry red, the 2000F standard previously
discussed. Will your insulation blanket generate smoke in close proximity to
hot metal? Easy to check.
Consider the famous case of the RV-8 pilot who jumped following an
engine compartment fire. Let's assume his firewall was solid. Let's further
assume his concern was the cowling burning away and allowing flame to stream
back along the outside of the fuselage. Is that your concern? Very thin
stainless foil is available in rolls. You might consider bonding a sheet to
the inside of the fiberglass cowl along the rear edge. It would probably buy
a lot of time, and again, it's not very hard to test.
Just opinions and ideas. You gotta do what you think best.
Dan
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon <steve.canyon@verizon.net>
DHPHKH@aol.com wrote:
> Interesting thread. May I help, ahhh, fuel the discussion?
---
I couldn't agree more with your post -- right on target.
Steve
Message 13
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| Subject: | PC/Monitor noise on Recording Equipment |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Pack" <jpack@igs3.com>
It's not Aero, but you guys seem to know everything electric.
I've just put music recording equipement in the same portable case as my PC
mixing equipement. I now have a static sound. I think it is caused by the
monitor/cables or PC Fans. What can I do to isolate these systems from the
recording equipement while keeping them all in the same physical box? Can
it be done electrically? Or is there some sort of shealding I should use
around the PC & monitor/cables?
thanks,
Jim
Message 14
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| Subject: | Microair Transponder harness and encoder package??? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: ccadkins <ccadkins@dragg.net>
Bob,
I know that you guys pulled the Microair xpndr from your site for the time
being due to delivery pipeline problems, but are you still offering the
previously mentioned harness and encoder "package" for the T2000 SFL ?
I've managed to finally take delivery of one, and would like to take
advantage of the "up front work" you guys have done on the harness.
Let me know.
Thanks,
Chris Adkins
ccadkins@dragg.net
Message 15
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| Subject: | Firewall Wire Penetration |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
I have a aircraft stainless steel welder interested in adding to his product line
a firewall penetration product RV builders might purchase. His question is
what might the best thing look like?
I"m picturing an Stainless flange to which is welded a tube with a 90 degree bend
in it. What size tubing would work best. Would it be better to have a small
one on each side, or all wires run through one larger tube? After all wires
were run, you could fill the remaining space with fireproof putty. Let's
put our heads together and see what might work best and he'll build it for us.
We've all got to run wires throught a firewall somehow.
thanks
---------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Firewall Wire Penetration |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
What is the purpose of the 90 degree bend? I would have thought a tube &
flange plus two bits of firesleeve and two clamps as (I think) in one of the
recent pictures Bob posted would be ideal.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Julia
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Wire Penetration
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
I have a aircraft stainless steel welder interested in adding to his product
line a firewall penetration product RV builders might purchase. His
question is what might the best thing look like?
I"m picturing an Stainless flange to which is welded a tube with a 90
degree bend in it. What size tubing would work best. Would it be better to
have a small one on each side, or all wires run through one larger tube?
After all wires were run, you could fill the remaining space with fireproof
putty. Let's put our heads together and see what might work best and he'll
build it for us. We've all got to run wires throught a firewall somehow.
thanks
---------------------------------
Message 17
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| Subject: | Firewall Wire Penetration |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
I think the purpose of the 90 degree bend is to make it more fireproof - imagine
flames blowing at it off the engine - if it's bent 90degrees it would certainly
take longer to burn through - instead of a staight one like you suggest.
Steve Sampson <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu> wrote:--> AeroElectric-List message
posted by: "Steve Sampson"
What is the purpose of the 90 degree bend? I would have thought a tube &
flange plus two bits of firesleeve and two clamps as (I think) in one of the
recent pictures Bob posted would be ideal.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Julia
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Wire Penetration
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia
I have a aircraft stainless steel welder interested in adding to his product
line a firewall penetration product RV builders might purchase. His
question is what might the best thing look like?
I"m picturing an Stainless flange to which is welded a tube with a 90
degree bend in it. What size tubing would work best. Would it be better to
have a small one on each side, or all wires run through one larger tube?
After all wires were run, you could fill the remaining space with fireproof
putty. Let's put our heads together and see what might work best and he'll
build it for us. We've all got to run wires throught a firewall somehow.
thanks
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
Message 18
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| Subject: | Firewall Wire Penetration |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
I would think that you'd want to match the ID of the common firesleve
sizes.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Julia
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Wire Penetration
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
I have a aircraft stainless steel welder interested in adding to his
product line a firewall penetration product RV builders might purchase.
His question is what might the best thing look like?
I"m picturing an Stainless flange to which is welded a tube with a 90
degree bend in it. What size tubing would work best. Would it be
better to have a small one on each side, or all wires run through one
larger tube? After all wires were run, you could fill the remaining
space with fireproof putty. Let's put our heads together and see what
might work best and he'll build it for us. We've all got to run wires
throught a firewall somehow.
thanks
---------------------------------
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Wire Penetration |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:32 AM 3/7/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
>
>
>I have a aircraft stainless steel welder interested in adding to his
>product line a firewall penetration product RV builders might
>purchase. His question is what might the best thing look like?
>
> I"m picturing an Stainless flange to which is welded a tube with a 90
> degree bend in it. What size tubing would work best. Would it be better
> to have a small one on each side, or all wires run through one larger
> tube? After all wires were run, you could fill the remaining space
> with fireproof putty. Let's put our heads together and see what might
> work best and he'll build it for us. We've all got to run wires
> throught a firewall somehow.
I'll welcome your friend to the problems of deciding
how to best serve a market where the combinations
for what's needed/wanted are endless. Should he offer
1/2" fittings, 3/4" fittings, 1" fittings, right
angle, straight, etc . . .? Sure, there are folks
out there interested in ALL of the above. Can he
try to satisfy everybody and still justify his
participation in the market? One hopes so, but
nothing is guaranteed.
I and the people I've worked for have wrestled
with these questions for decades . . . and on
occasion, we make a decision that makes both
the customer and the boss really happy.
If I were going to address that market,
I'd offer 3/4" straight and right angle
adapters as parts of a kit that included
stainless steel hardware for mounting, a
10" piece of firesleeve (6" for the outside
and 4" to cut into strips for packing) and
two hose clamps.
Is this "magic" advice? Nope, but it's
certainly a middle of the road approach to
putting one's toes into the water and deciding
whether or not you want to go swimming.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Firewall Wire Penetration |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:10 PM 3/7/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson"
><SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
>
>What is the purpose of the 90 degree bend? I would have thought a tube &
>flange plus two bits of firesleeve and two clamps as (I think) in one of the
>recent pictures Bob posted would be ideal.
Check over the posting I did on this technique and you'll
find both straight and right angle fittings. It depends
on how you want to handle the wire bundle once it enters
the engine compartment . . . My personal preference
would be for a right angle so that wire bundles can spread
out on the firewall . . . Bringing them straight through
presents some challenges for neat routing on most airplanes.
The airplane using the straight fitting illustrated in
my article needed to take the whole bundle through some
baffles immediately forward of the firewall so it made
better sense to come out straight. I suspect builders
will discover requirements unique to their projects
that will suggest the best way to go.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect Ammeters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: jmfpublic@attbi.com
For another source of inexpensive Hall effect units, with helpful application
notes, see http://www.amploc.com/ Prices run 12 to 25 dollars.
These will output a voltage equal to 1/2 of supply voltage at zero current
input, and thus need a regulated 5 volts DC. Not hard to get at low current in
a small 3 wire device.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: PC/Monitor noise on Recording Equipment |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:19 AM 3/7/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Pack" <jpack@igs3.com>
>
>It's not Aero, but you guys seem to know everything electric.
>
>I've just put music recording equipement in the same portable case as my PC
>mixing equipement. I now have a static sound. I think it is caused by the
>monitor/cables or PC Fans. What can I do to isolate these systems from the
>recording equipement while keeping them all in the same physical box? Can
>it be done electrically? Or is there some sort of shealding I should use
>around the PC & monitor/cables?
No really good way to know. You need to find out what
the propagation mode between victim and antagonist
and then break that path. It can be radiated or
conducted and take time and effort to ferret out.
I'd hesitate to recommend any particular action
without doing some "sniffing" in the lab with equipment
designed to assist in deducing the answers. You can
certainly try combinations of shielding, filters,
and magnetic barriers (low hardness steel sheet
between the combatants) . . . you might get lucky
and find that the solution is simple.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Firewall Wire Penetration |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
As mentioned before, dont forget about the sealant that expands and seals
the opening when exposed to flame.
At 11:59 AM 3/7/03 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
>
>
>I think the purpose of the 90 degree bend is to make it more fireproof -
>imagine flames blowing at it off the engine - if it's bent 90degrees it
>would certainly take longer to burn through - instead of a staight one like
>you suggest.
>
> Steve Sampson <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu> wrote:--> AeroElectric-List
>message posted by: "Steve Sampson"
>
>What is the purpose of the 90 degree bend? I would have thought a tube &
>flange plus two bits of firesleeve and two clamps as (I think) in one of the
>recent pictures Bob posted would be ideal.
>
>Steve
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Julia
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Wire Penetration
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia
>
>
>I have a aircraft stainless steel welder interested in adding to his product
>line a firewall penetration product RV builders might purchase. His
>question is what might the best thing look like?
>
>I"m picturing an Stainless flange to which is welded a tube with a 90
>degree bend in it. What size tubing would work best. Would it be better to
>have a small one on each side, or all wires run through one larger tube?
>After all wires were run, you could fill the remaining space with fireproof
>putty. Let's put our heads together and see what might work best and he'll
>build it for us. We've all got to run wires throught a firewall somehow.
>
>thanks
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Startup issues... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
On startup with any engine, the sooner the oil comes up to pressure, the
better. I even like the idea of a small, red LED idiot bulb that goes out
when the pressure is up, just to feel better about that 'spensive bag of
bolts out front... Just my opinion.
Jerry Cochran
RV6a/FWF
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Startup issues... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
And if you had a pre-oiler you could tell whether it was actually working
or not.... Kind of like starting a diesel - wait for the GP light to go
out before
turning over.
Regards,
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
>
> On startup with any engine, the sooner the oil comes up to pressure, the
> better. I even like the idea of a small, red LED idiot bulb that goes
> out when the pressure is up, just to feel better about that 'spensive
> bag of bolts out front... Just my opinion.
>
> Jerry Cochran
> RV6a/FWF
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect Ammeters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:56 PM 3/7/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: jmfpublic@attbi.com
>
>For another source of inexpensive Hall effect units, with helpful application
>notes, see http://www.amploc.com/ Prices run 12 to 25 dollars.
>
>These will output a voltage equal to 1/2 of supply voltage at zero current
>input, and thus need a regulated 5 volts DC. Not hard to get at low
>current in
>a small 3 wire device.
I've used these several times. Disappointing offset stability
with temperature and pretty high retentivity . . . hit them
with a 50A pulse and "zero" shifts up about an amp. Reverse
the stimulus and zero moves to minus 1 amp. Their output
per ampere-turn was reasonably stable. Fortunately, the few
times I've found them useful was taking measurements on
currents that went to zero every operating cycle. I could write
software that washed out the "wobbly" zero-current value.
This is the type of sensor used on the B&C SB-1 alternator
controller for driving the overcurrent light. In this case,
current is always the same direction and a 5% tolerance
on calibration was insignificant to the operation of the
system.
Within limitations cited above, they are indeed a handy,
reasonably priced sensor.
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Firewall Wire Penetration |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:09 PM 3/7/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>As mentioned before, dont forget about the sealant that expands and seals
>the opening when exposed to flame.
The technique cited in my article replaced sealant in the
firesleeve with a wrapping of firesleeve cut down the side
to make some "firesheet". You can see in the last photo
how this was compressed down by the second hose clamp
to fill the voids.
Much friendlier to future addition or removal of wires.
The only place they used sealant was to close the gap
between the firewall sheet and flange of the penetration
fitting.
Bob . . .
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Startup issues... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:33 PM 3/7/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
>
>On startup with any engine, the sooner the oil comes up to pressure, the
>better. I even like the idea of a small, red LED idiot bulb that goes out
>when the pressure is up, just to feel better about that 'spensive bag of
>bolts out front... Just my opinion.
>
>Jerry Cochran
>RV6a/FWF
That's what a pressure switch driven lamp would do for us. The
same switch could run the hour-meter.
see http://216.55.140.222/temp/HourMeter-LowOilP.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 29
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| Subject: | Hall effect ammeters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com
In a message dated 03/07/2003 2:58:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com Bob Nuckolls writes:
<<.....skip.... This technology hasn't been developed into a productby either
B&C or AEC as of this writing. Since that chapter was written, some MUCH more
accurate devices using Hall technology combined with an integrated circuit
gives you a sensor like the closed loop sensors at:
http://www.sypris.com/stm/content.asp?page_id=323
consider the CLN-200 on
http://www.sypris.com/stm/content.asp?page_id=401
as the core sensor for a DIY ammeter. I can
provide a suggested schematic for using
these devices. They need about 150 milliamperes
of +/- 12 or 15 volts. A bit of a hassle but
getting easier all the time.
I've used a number of these sensors in instrumentation
tasks over the past 10 years. Really predictable
and stable output compared to the older, open
loop devices.
The MicroMonitor uses a hall effect device. The
last time I saw one installed they were using
a Honeywell product. You can browse the
complete line of Honeywell current sensors
at
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/current/
check out the CSLA1CF open loop sensor at
http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/printfriendly.asp?FAM=current&PN=CSLA1CF
and a closed loop sensor at
http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/printfriendly.asp?FAM=current&PN=CSNA111-
500
Didn't find anyone other than MicroMonitor taking advantage of this
technology in a
product. Bob . . . >>
3/7/2003
Hello Bob, How about the Vision Microsystems Hall effect sensor installed on
the alternator B cable to create the eventual amperage read out on their
proprietary display? Does it qualify?
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
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| Subject: | Re: Hall effect ammeters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
The Vision Microsystems sensor requires 10V and ground supplied to it. The
signal back from it is 5V relative to it's ground at zero amps. It
increases something like .0323V/A. That would make a signal of 8.23V at 100
amps.
Dave in Wichita
----- Original Message -----
From: <BAKEROCB@aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect ammeters
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 03/07/2003 2:58:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com Bob Nuckolls writes:
>
> <<.....skip.... This technology hasn't been developed into a productby
either
> B&C or AEC as of this writing. Since that chapter was written, some MUCH
more
> accurate devices using Hall technology combined with an integrated circuit
> gives you a sensor like the closed loop sensors at:
>
> http://www.sypris.com/stm/content.asp?page_id=323
>
> consider the CLN-200 on
>
> http://www.sypris.com/stm/content.asp?page_id=401
>
> as the core sensor for a DIY ammeter. I can
> provide a suggested schematic for using
> these devices. They need about 150 milliamperes
> of +/- 12 or 15 volts. A bit of a hassle but
> getting easier all the time.
>
> I've used a number of these sensors in instrumentation
> tasks over the past 10 years. Really predictable
> and stable output compared to the older, open
> loop devices.
>
> The MicroMonitor uses a hall effect device. The
> last time I saw one installed they were using
> a Honeywell product. You can browse the
> complete line of Honeywell current sensors
> at
>
> http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/current/
>
> check out the CSLA1CF open loop sensor at
>
>
http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/printfriendly.asp?FAM=current&PN=CSLA1C
F
>
> and a closed loop sensor at
>
>
http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/printfriendly.asp?FAM=current&PN=CSNA11
1-
>
> 500
>
> Didn't find anyone other than MicroMonitor taking advantage of this
> technology in a
> product. Bob . . . >>
>
> 3/7/2003
>
> Hello Bob, How about the Vision Microsystems Hall effect sensor installed
on
> the alternator B cable to create the eventual amperage read out on their
> proprietary display? Does it qualify?
>
> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
>
>
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