---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/10/03: 50 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:51 AM - Re: Transponder antenna position (Jon Finley) 2. 05:30 AM - Re: Audio Isolation Amp (Mark Phillips) 3. 06:53 AM - Re: Transponder antenna position (John Slade) 4. 07:01 AM - Ground Planes (MikeEasley@aol.com) 5. 07:02 AM - Re: Transponder antenna position (SportAV8R@aol.com) 6. 07:50 AM - Re: Clock consumption (Paul Messinger) 7. 07:53 AM - Re: Ground Planes (Philip Hildebrand) 8. 07:57 AM - Re: Transponder antenna position (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:06 AM - Re: Ground Planes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 08:06 AM - Re: starter feed protection? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 08:07 AM - Re: Transponder antenna position (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 08:19 AM - Re: Firewall Wire Penetration (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 08:40 AM - Re: Ground Planes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 08:41 AM - Re: Clock consumption (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 09:44 AM - Re: Clock consumption (Paul Messinger) 16. 09:52 AM - Antennas that really don't need a ground plane ? (Glles.Thesee) 17. 10:04 AM - Re: Antennas that really don't need a ground plane ? (SportAV8R@aol.com) 18. 10:08 AM - Alternator hookup (Julia) 19. 10:37 AM - Re: FAST-ON RELIABILITY (HCRV6@aol.com) 20. 11:08 AM - Alt. Field Circuit Breaker (Randy Pflanzer) 21. 11:24 AM - Re: Re: Halon (Mark Steitle) 22. 12:22 PM - Re: Audio Isolation Amp (nhulin) 23. 12:47 PM - Re: Antennas that really don't need a (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 12:57 PM - Re: Clock consumption (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 01:06 PM - Re: Antennas that really don't need a ground plane ? (Glles.Thesee) 26. 01:11 PM - Re: Alternator hookup (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 27. 01:12 PM - Re: Alt. Field Circuit Breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 28. 01:33 PM - Re: Ground Planes (MikeEasley@aol.com) 29. 02:15 PM - Re: Ground Planes (I-Blackler, Wayne R) 30. 02:53 PM - Re: Ground Planes (Neville Kilford) 31. 03:14 PM - Re: Ground Planes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 32. 03:14 PM - Re: Antennas that really don't need a (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 33. 03:19 PM - Re: Ground Planes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 34. 03:39 PM - Re: Ground Planes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 35. 03:49 PM - Re: Ground Planes (John Loram) 36. 04:00 PM - [Fw: Re: Hall Effect Ammeters] (bernieC@erols.com) 37. 04:37 PM - Re: Ground Planes (Matt Prather) 38. 04:47 PM - Dual E.I. and Batteries, single Alt. (Rick Fogerson) 39. 04:54 PM - Re: Ground Planes (Rino) 40. 05:42 PM - Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 41. 05:43 PM - Re: [Fw: Re: Hall Effect Ammeters] (Richard E. Tasker) 42. 05:44 PM - Re: Hall Effect Ammeters (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 43. 06:32 PM - Re: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . (Alex Peterson) 44. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . (John Rourke) 45. 07:19 PM - Re: Dual E.I. and Batteries, single Alt. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 46. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Noise in 760 installation (Duncan McBride) 47. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . (Duncan McBride) 48. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . (John Loram) 49. 10:38 PM - Fast-on current ratings? (czechsix@juno.com) 50. 10:38 PM - Microair com to intercom wiring schematic? (czechsix@juno.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:26 AM PST US From: "Jon Finley" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna position --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" Hi John, I have a Q2 with the transponder antenna mounted inside the tailcone. ATC has never complained so I assume it works fine. Mine is mounted to an aluminum plate about 8-10" square. Jon Finley N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 440 Hrs. TT - 0 Hrs Engine Apple Valley, Minnesota http://www.FinleyWeb.net/default.asp?id=96 > -----Original Message----- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > --> > > I'm about to install my transponder antenna in my (plastic) > Cozy IV. Ideal location choices are a bit limited since the > prewired tray comes with a very short wire. I'd rather not > poke the antenna through the floor. I presume this isnt > necessary with a fiberglass airplane. > > My main question is this - how important is it that the > antenna has an unblocked "view" below the airplane? For > example, one handy spot would put the nose wheel aft of the > antenna when the gear is retracted. Another has a couple of > pipes fairly close by. I'm guessing that installing it close > to a wire bundle or ground bus would be a bad idea. > > Comments please. > John Slade ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:13 AM PST US From: Mark Phillips Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Audio Isolation Amp --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips > . . . if there are no serious errors, I'll have 5 or > six boards to offer for those who would like > to take a whack at their own iso-amp . . . > and I'll publish the board layout files > (Experesspcb.com) and some pictures as to > how it goes together. > > Bob . . . Most outstanding, sir! This just may be that "very good first-time project for the neophyte assembler." Looking forward to it, and thank you again! Mark - do not archive - ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:08 AM PST US From: "John Slade" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna position --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > Mine is mounted to an aluminum plate about 8-10" square. I need an aluminum plate? The antenna didnt come with any instructions. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:18 AM PST US From: MikeEasley@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com I have an Artex ELT-200 with a 18.75" whip antenna. My plan is to mount it on a composite prepreg shelf inside the aft fueselage. My guess is I need a ground plane. How large does it need to be? I also have a CI-101 Transponder antenna that I'm mounting under the rear seat. What size should the ground plane be? Mike Easley Lancair ES ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:00 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna position --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com John, FWIW, I recently moved my belly-mounted transponder antenna to a small aluminum ground plane in the aft section of the wheel pant on my RV-6A. It is near to the metal axle and wheel/brake assembly, but this does not seem to affect its operation in the least. I get interrogation lights where I expect them while flying, and ATC has never fussed about my transponder's accessibility to their radar. I am happy with a drag-free and visually clean installation. I'd say you have far more option is a plastic airplane, and most all of them will work just fine, provided that a small metal ground plane is there for the antenna to work against. Bill B. > My main question is this - how important is it that the antenna has an > unblocked "view" below the airplane? For example, one handy spot would put > the nose wheel aft of the antenna when the gear is retracted. Another has a > couple of pipes fairly close by. I'm guessing that installing it close to a > wire bundle or ground bus would be a bad idea. > > Comments please. > John Slade > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:23 AM PST US From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Clock consumption --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" If the auto has an internal regulated alt consider that many mfgr's designs leak back thru the "B" lead to the tune of 70-80ma. This will drain things fast. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Clock consumption > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 11:00 PM 3/9/2003 +0100, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glles.Thesee" > > > > > >Bob and all, > > > >Is it wise to run a panel electric clok from the auxilliary battery bus ? > >According to A&S catalog, the current draw is in the order of 2.3 mA. Won't > >the clock run the battery down wihin a month or two if the airplane is left > >sitting in the hangar ? > > Yup . . . 2.3 mA 24/7 works out to 20 a.h. per year but only > 1.6 a.h. month. Surely you're going to fly more often than > once a month! Dee's Saturn didn't get driven for about 8 weeks > and I found it had a dead battery . . . a nearly new battery > at that. I suspect it's got some keep-alive requirements > too. Soon as the weather warms up a bit more, I'm going to > go measure it. > > If you're going to store an airplane for that long, you might > want to run the clock from the e-bus and just re-set it > every time you go fly. > > Hmmm . . . that seems like a lot of power for a clock, > my wristwatch runs for over a year on a 25 maH battery. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:16 AM PST US From: Philip Hildebrand Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Philip Hildebrand Just did the same thing on my ES, and when I called Atrex they said that the ground plane should be the diameter of the length of the antenna. Since this was not suitable in my case, I opted for the antenna designed for composite airplanes that do not require a ground plane. (available from Artex). -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MikeEasley@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com I have an Artex ELT-200 with a 18.75" whip antenna. My plan is to mount it on a composite prepreg shelf inside the aft fueselage. My guess is I need a ground plane. How large does it need to be? I also have a CI-101 Transponder antenna that I'm mounting under the rear seat. What size should the ground plane be? Mike Easley Lancair ES ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna position --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > My transponder antenna is mounted to an aluminum plate about 8-10" square. > >I need an aluminum plate? The antenna didnt come with any instructions. Check the chapter on antennas in the 'Connection Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:58 AM 3/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com > >I have an Artex ELT-200 with a 18.75" whip antenna. My plan is to mount it >on a composite prepreg shelf inside the aft fueselage. My guess is I need a >ground plane. How large does it need to be? > >I also have a CI-101 Transponder antenna that I'm mounting under the rear >seat. What size should the ground plane be? See antenna chapter in the 'Connection Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: starter feed protection? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >Good Morning Bob, >We are planning to use your Dual Alternator, Dual Battery design in the >fiberglass Velocity pusher we're building (Continental IO550N >engine). Our batteries are up front in the nose gear well and the starter >is in the rear on the engine. We would like to put the starter contactor >in the engine compartment to avoid the weight (about 20 ft length) of the >extra alternator wire required if we don't share the main alternator and >starter on the same heavy gauge wire. > >Our concern is that if we put the starter contactor in the rear, there >will be a long, un-protected, heavy gauge wire running all the way from >the batteries to the starter contactor that if shorted, could cause a >fire. If we put a large ANL fuse (400 amp?), big enough to survive the >starter motor engage current, it will be so large that it won't protect us >from say a 100 amp "short" to this wire somewhere along the way -- a short >plenty large enough to cause serious problems or fire aloft, but not big >enough to blow the 400 amp starter fuse. We're also not sure how large a >starter motor fuse would be needed, and whether we can find one that >wouldn't weigh more than the extra alternator wire! > >Do you see this as a problem that should be protected against? We could >add the "starter fuse" and shrink wrap extra insulation around the "over" >protected wire (and ground wire) in the fiberglass duct that runs from the >batteries back to the engine for more protection, or even double wrap it >in the trouble spots like where the wire comes out of the duct and onto >the stainless firewall where the starter contactor would be mounted. > >Your thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Your book has >been extremely helpful. Thanks for all you've done for the experimental >community. What's it going to short against? Batteries have been mounted in tails of airplanes for 60 years with no special protection for large, always hot wires. These wires are easy to install with a little attention to eliminating risks to the wire. Obviously, you don't run the wire next to moving mechanisms or over sharp edges without rudimentary attention to eliminating risks. I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Thanks! Bob . . . |---------------------------------------------------| | A lie can travel half way around the world while | | the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . | | -Mark Twain- | |---------------------------------------------------| ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna position --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:42 PM 3/9/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > >I'm about to install my transponder antenna in my (plastic) Cozy IV. Ideal >location choices are a bit limited since the prewired tray comes with a very >short wire. I'd rather not poke the antenna through the floor. I presume >this isnt necessary with a fiberglass airplane. > >My main question is this - how important is it that the antenna has an >unblocked "view" below the airplane? For example, one handy spot would put >the nose wheel aft of the antenna when the gear is retracted. Another has a >couple of pipes fairly close by. I'm guessing that installing it close to a >wire bundle or ground bus would be a bad idea. Mount it a "clear" as you can and give it a try. Any info from other builders, while useful, is anecdotal as to degree of performance. It will depend a great deal on the situations in which you operate your airplane. This is an experimental airplane which means you may have to experiment with what works best for you. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:41 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Wire Penetration --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:14 PM 3/9/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia > > >I just dug out a SS bath tub towel holder which I did not yet install in >the home I've been building and it's perfect for a firewall penetration >gadget. Someone else mentioned this earlier and now that i've got one in >my hands it looks perfect. >it's stainless - it's got the 90 degree bend and the flange is welded on - >just cut the tube to length and you get two of these - one off each end. >The one I have I got at home depot - made by Franklin Brass (a Masco >Company) - item #6424 - it's 1 1/4 inch diameter tubing - 24 inch grab bar >(usp code #79171 64245 6) - so I think just one would handle ALL my wires. >now that i've got this in my hands and am looking at my RV - it sure looks >like the easy way to do this. >my 2 cents for the day. You beat me to it. I was planning to scrounge through the various fixtures at local stores and see what was offered. I'd like to identify some smaller ones . . . 1-1/4" takes care of ALL the wires in a high performance single engine airplane with MOST of the passageway left over. However, a cheap one that's a bit too big is, in my never humble opinion, a better deal than a more expensive one exactly the right size. I would encourage everyone to keep an eye open for off-the-shelf opportunities to acquire suitable fittings to this task. Watch for both straight and right angle fittings and let everyone know about it when you spot a likely candidate. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:45 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:44 AM 3/10/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Philip Hildebrand > > > Just did the same thing on my ES, and when I called Atrex they >said that the ground plane should be the diameter of the length of the >antenna. Since this was not suitable in my case, I opted for the >antenna designed for composite airplanes that do not require a ground >plane. (available from Artex). The "ground plane" does not need to be a flat disk. It's easy to install on any composite airplane. See antenna chapter in 'Connection Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:43 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Clock consumption --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:42 AM 3/10/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" > > >If the auto has an internal regulated alt consider that many mfgr's designs >leak back thru the "B" lead to the tune of 70-80ma. > >This will drain things fast. That's HUGE! Got any idea where the energy goes? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:17 AM PST US From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Clock consumption --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" Sure, Its a "sneak" circuit back into the internal regulator. Remember the internal regulator on say a ND (and many others) are only powered up externally on initial startup. There is an internal "B" lead connection to the regulator power. This internal connection makes the alternator a "one wire type" after startup. In fact you can pull the small wire connections and it keeps on working until the engine is turned off. This connection is "another" failure mode of internal regulators that cannot be stopped by removing the connection to the ign switch. Sure the field power transistor can short but its also likely that a failure can be internal to the regulator that turns on that transistor. This can lead to a rare alternator failure where an internal output circuit short (diodes perhaps) can result in a self excited overload that ends up in a fire. Why its so important to have control of the field supply and why I would never have an internal regulated setup on my aircraft where the "B" lead supplied the internal regulator. Modern auto imports from Japan must be run for 1/2 hour or so at least once a week to keep the battery charged. This is not common knowledge and is frustrating to the auto stores which have a healthy business on replacement batteries and also arguing with the unhappy customer who's battery keeps failing to hold a charge. Anyway, I have tried three different brands of Japan mfgr alternators and the "off" drain was around 70ma. This from dead battries on a truck (of mine) that is not run often and where I had replaced the alternator with a surplus (to me) import unit. Once the problem was detected, it was checked out and both auto stores and dealers said sure "did you not know of the need to run the car weekly?" :-) Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Clock consumption > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 07:42 AM 3/10/2003 -0800, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" > > > > > >If the auto has an internal regulated alt consider that many mfgr's designs > >leak back thru the "B" lead to the tune of 70-80ma. > > > >This will drain things fast. > > That's HUGE! Got any idea where the energy goes? > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:24 AM PST US From: "Glles.Thesee" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antennas that really don't need a ground plane ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glles.Thesee" Hi Bob and all, Is it true some comm or XPDR antennas can dispense with a ground plane ? I seem to remember having read this claim (Artex, Archer, Advanced Aircraft Electronics antennas from A&S). How come ? Or maybe they are not quarterwave antennas ? Thanks Gilles ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:52 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas that really don't need a ground plane ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com In a message dated 03/10/2003 12:53:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr writes: > Is it true some comm or XPDR antennas can dispense with a ground plane ? I > seem to remember having read this claim (Artex, Archer, Advanced Aircraft > Electronics antennas from A&S). > How come ? > Or maybe they are not quarterwave antennas ? > I think you answered your own question, Gilles. These ground-plane-less types tend to be voltage-fed longer resonators, a J-pole, for instance, or some gamma-matched iteration of same, like the Archer. Many are self-resonant half wave radiators and hence work better without a nearby ground of any sort. Bill B RV-6A MFJ-259B on its way from eBay, so I can roll & tweak my own aeronautical mobile antenna farm. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:10 AM PST US From: Julia Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator hookup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia My alternator doesn't seem to have any #'s or markings to indicate it origin - I was once told it was off a Mazda RX-7 - with built in regulator. I know it has a built in regulator. I was told the large output terminal goes to the Bat. - I knew that one. Then we have two small terminals - fast-on male tabs - one vertical and one horizontal - like a "T" . I"m told the top of the "T" is the switched 12V - supply which feeds the alternator field. Then the vertical stem of the "T" would be for a light - you could run this to a light and then to ground - then if the alternator failed, the light would light up. I"m hoping this is a standard way in which alternators are configued on the hook up - does this sound right to anyone. Can I tell using an ohm meter - which terminal goes to the alternator field and which would switch a light on and off? If I take the Top of the "T" and put a positive ohm probe and then put the other ohm probe to ground, I would get some resistance reading - but current should flow. Well then what if I reverse the probes - are there perhaps diodes in there which would prevent the current from flowing backwards?? if so would this help indicate which terminal was for the alternator field? The Mazda technicians don't seem to know much either - they were no help at all. does it sound right that the only alternator ground would just be the contact it makes when bolted to the engine? I see not terminal on my alternator for a ground hook up? thanks. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:18 AM PST US From: HCRV6@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAST-ON RELIABILITY --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com In a message dated 3/9/03 12:00:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, wings97302@yahoo.com writes: << In wiring the Booster Fuel Pump switch - is it ok to use a switch with fast-on tabs - i'm not yet sure what to think of these - they are easy to install - but i'm worried about an airplane full of loose fast-on connections? has anyone ever had a problem with loose fast-on tabs or is it not something I need to worry about as long as I install them correctly. would it be better with the fuel booster pump to use a switch with screw terminals? thanks >> I'm no expert but FWIW if you have ever tried to remove a properly engaged fast on terminal you might be less concerned, I sure no longer have any concern about one accidentally coming loose. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, firewall forward ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:29 AM PST US From: Randy Pflanzer Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alt. Field Circuit Breaker --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer Bob, I'm using the dual alternator (Z-10) on my Rocket. In order to get power to the two 5 amp circuit breakers in my panel for the alternator field current, I need to run a wire from the power post on the bus to the breakers. This will be a distance of only a foot or so. What size wire would be sufficient? Can I run the wire without a fusible link? Thank you as always. Randy F1 Rocket #95 http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:10 AM PST US From: Mark Steitle Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Steitle Another racing site that carries halon fire systems is Baker Precision in Signal Hill, Ca. Their system uses what they claim to be "aircraft approved" Halon 1301. Their systems come in 5 and 10 lb. sizes. See: http://www.bakerprecision.com/firesys.htm Mark S. At 11:24 AM 3/7/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" > >thanks David, I looked around and found one from a race car supply house >http://www.howeracing.com/cockpit/cockpit4/indexbottle.htm > >They have 2lb and 5lb models. Do you know what size would be needed? > >Ron > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Carter" >To: >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" > > > > > This web site has the most info: http://www.h3r.com/ Has lots of > > informative articles explaining Halon and its use and legal status. > > > > David Carter > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ron Raby" > > To: > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon > > > > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" > > > > > > > > > > > Where do you get these halon systems? Does the bottle get mounted remote > > > from the firewall and then plumbed through a fitting in the firewall? Is > > the > > > acuation of these systems mechanical or electrical? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Ron Raby > > > > > > N829R > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Jerzy Krasinski" > > > To: > > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Halon > > > > > > > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski > > > > > > > > > > > Actually halons do much more than just "displacing oxygen and >removing > > > > enormous amounts of heat through evaporation". Halons absorb a lot of > > > > radiation from the flame, mostly in the infrared, and they prevent > > > > excitation of molecules ahead of the front of the flame. Excited > > > > molecules of fuel and oxygen have electrons far away from the core of > > > > the molecule, and such excited molecules are very eager to get >involved > > > > in a transfer of these electrons to other molecules, which is the >base > > > > of chemical reactions. Excitation of molecules ahead of the flame by > > > > radiation heating is the basic mechanism for a flame propagation. > > > > Chemically inert halons absorbing radiation prevent excitation of fuel > > > > and oxygen molecules ahead of the front of the flame, and they make > > > > propagation of the flame difficult or impossible. Even as little as a > > > > few percent of halon stops propagation of the flame which makes it >easy > > > > to blow it off - halons are extremely efficient as fire > > > > extinguishers. You would need much higher concentration for a > > > > conventional displacement of oxygen like in a CO2 extinguisher. A >few > > > > percent concentration would not make any difference if the >displacement > > > > was the main mechanism. Classical cooling by small amounts of halon is > > > > not that important in fighting fire because chemical reaction of >burning > > > > fuel generates huge amounts of heat, and cold gasoline vapor burns >quite > > > > well anyway. I worked on halons some thirty years ago. > > > > Jerzy > > > > > > > > Alex Peterson wrote: > > > > > > > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > > > > > > > > > > > >I talked to an engineer at the outfit that makes halotron, and asked > > him > > > > >what the scoop was between halon and halotron. He said that pound >for > > > > >pound, halotron is about 80% (going on memory here, but the number is > > > > >close) as effective in fire fighting as halon. Shouldn't be any > > > > >more/less safe than halon for us, but it makes the greenies happy. >Of > > > > >course, we need to burn more fuel to lift the extra pound of halotron > > > > >around, so I guess there are no free lunches. The halon that is >still > > > > >available is from reclaimed sources, as it is no longer legal to > > > > >manufacture halon. Either one puts out fires by displacing oxygen >and > > > > >removing enormous amounts of heat through evaporation. > > > > > > > > > >Alex Peterson > > > > >Maple Grove, MN > > > > >RV6-A N66AP 265 hours, dragging an extra pound of extinguisher with > > the > > > > >whole way > > > > >www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:23 PM PST US From: "nhulin" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Audio Isolation Amp --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "nhulin" Mark, For common stuff Mouser are too expensive. You can get everything you want for this project from AllElectronics at www.allelectronics.com for around $8 including the board to build it on. Here is the parts list you need from AllElectronics. SKU,Description,Qty,Price,Subtotal LM386N-1,0.25 WATT AUDIO AMP,2,$0.40,$0.80 7808T,8V POS REG 1 AMP,1,$0.50,$0.50 1/50VR,1MFD/50V RADIAL,7,$0.15,$1.05 10/16VR,10MFD/16V RADIAL ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITOR,4,$0.10,$0.40 RMC-103,.01MFD 100V POLY,2,$0.12,$0.24 470-1/4,470 OHM 1/4 WATT,10,$0.05,$0.50 27-1/4,27 OHM 1/4 WATT,10,$0.05,$0.50 DB-15P,SUB MINI D CONN./15 PIN MALE,1,$0.59,$0.59 DB-15S,SUB MINI D CONNECTOR, 15 PIN FEMALE,1,$0.69,$0.69 PC-4,SOLDERABLE PERF BOARD,1,$2.00,$2.00 DB-15H,DB-15 HOOD,1,$0.39,$0.39 ---- Your Total is $7.66 To get a formatted list just cut/paste into Excel and parse the lines as comma delimited data. You have to buy resistors with a minimum qty of 10 but since they are 5c each I don't think that is going to break the bank. Here are the individual component URLs to make it easier: http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=LM386N-1 http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=7808T http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=1/50VR http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=10/16VR http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=RMC-103 http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=470-1/4 http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=27-1/4 http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=DB-15P http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=DB-15S http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=PC-4 http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=DB-15H I have no connection with this company but my first career was electronics and telecommunications and I still buy and build a lot of stuff. Come to think of it, for about 8 bucks I might build one of these myself after I finish my $10 wigwag circuit that is currently on the protoboard. Hope that this has been of some help. Just check over the parts list to make sure I didn't miss anything. ...neil Zodiac 601XL --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips 'Lectronics arnt us! I've spent the better part of two days rummaging around in the Mouser catalog trying to dig up the parts for this little beast, http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v4.pdf and I have learned how totally ignerant I am and little else! I "think" I have found the LM386 (Mouser #513-NJM386BD) and the LM7808 (Mouser #513-NJM7808FA), but how does one decide which capacitors and resistors to opt for? Kind of looks like I'd have to call them to place the resistor order anyway as I didn't see anywhere on the website to specify resistance value. And what kind of caps? Bob specs 1uF/15V for most, but I don't see anything "rated" that low- is this a minimum rating for dielectric strength and 400V would be OK as long as the capacitance is correct? There are almost 50 pages of just non-electrolytics! And most moronic of all, is 1uF = 1000pF? (aaarghh!) I'd like to use the clad board technique Bob demonstrates at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/cladboard/cladboard.html In the back of the Mouser catalog (p844) is "Vectorboard General Purpose" prototyping board described as "CEM 1 Epoxy glass comp", .062 thk, 4-1/2"x17" Is this the right stuff? (for $20!!!!!- probably only need about 5 bucks worth!) I'm sure most of you tech-types just got all this stuff laying around your workbench and could slop one together in yer sleep that works perfectly, but I could sure use some advice- I really don't want to take out time to go back & grind through all the fundamentals, but if any of y'all have a specific parts list put together for this thing, DigiKey, Mouser or whatever, I could sure use it! Better yet, throw the parts in a baggie, mail it to me and I'll send you some bucks! Maybe one day Bob will add a comic strip on this critter to his other great stuff, but I'm not sure if enough builders like me (cheap!) actually go about making one of these things to justify his time- I feel guilty just THINKING about asking him... Need to be in the shop & not in the catalogs at The PossumWorks Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:25 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas that really don't need a ground plane ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:58 PM 3/10/2003 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glles.Thesee" > > >Hi Bob and all, > >Is it true some comm or XPDR antennas can dispense with a ground plane ? I >seem to remember having read this claim (Artex, Archer, Advanced Aircraft >Electronics antennas from A&S). >How come ? >Or maybe they are not quarterwave antennas ? right . . . they're center-fed, half-wave dipoles. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:41 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Clock consumption --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:41 AM 3/10/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" > > >Sure, Its a "sneak" circuit back into the internal regulator. > >Remember the internal regulator on say a ND (and many others) are only >powered up externally on initial startup. There is an internal "B" lead >connection to the regulator power. This internal connection makes the >alternator a "one wire type" after startup. In fact you can pull the small >wire connections and it keeps on working until the engine is turned off. . . . heard that >This connection is "another" failure mode of internal regulators that cannot >be stopped by removing the connection to the ign switch. Sure the field >power transistor can short but its also likely that a failure can be >internal to the regulator that turns on that transistor. > >This can lead to a rare alternator failure where an internal output circuit >short (diodes perhaps) can result in a self excited overload that ends up in >a fire. Why its so important to have control of the field supply and why I >would never have an internal regulated setup on my aircraft where the "B" >lead supplied the internal regulator. sure . . . this is where the b-lead contactor for ov disconnect came into being . . . >Modern auto imports from Japan must be run for 1/2 hour or so at least once >a week to keep the battery charged. This is not common knowledge and is >frustrating to the auto stores which have a healthy business on replacement >batteries and also arguing with the unhappy customer who's battery keeps >failing to hold a charge. > >Anyway, I have tried three different brands of Japan mfgr alternators and >the "off" drain was around 70ma. > >This from dead battries on a truck (of mine) that is not run often and where >I had replaced the alternator with a surplus (to me) import unit. > >Once the problem was detected, it was checked out and both auto stores and >dealers said sure "did you not know of the need to run the car weekly?" :-) Hmmmm . . . it's still cold in the garage but I couldn't stand the suspense any more. Went out to put an ammeter between the battery and the rest of the system on my wife's Saturn. DAMN!!!! 430 milliampers !!!! Now, I don't know where all the juice is going. She's got a whizzy, 50-disc CD changer that does things all by itself whether or not the ignition switch is on. The CD changer may have been in some kind of initialization activity as soon as I re-connected the battery. The battery's open circuit voltage was down to 11.50 volts (it's been setting about 5 days since last run). Soooo . . . I've got a charger on the battery and will go out this evening for some more detailed studies. That 400+ mA may go down to some lower value after a few minutes . . . but I'm going to bring the battery back up first. I am mystified as to why a manufacturer would build such a product. I don't see why it's so difficult to let the "control" lead have better control . . . Of course, this is of little interest to airplane builders since we have battery masters and b-lead disconnect contactors but it's a bummer for "modern" car owners. Will let you know what I find out later this evening. Thanks for the head's up . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:17 PM PST US From: "Glles.Thesee" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas that really don't need a ground plane ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glles.Thesee" ----- Message d'origine ----- De : "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" : Envoy : lundi 10 mars 2003 21:46 Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas that really don't need a ground plane ? > >Or maybe they are not quarterwave antennas ? > > right . . . they're center-fed, half-wave dipoles. > > Bob . . . Bob and Bill, Thank you. Then they must be about twice as long, right ? Gilles ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator hookup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:06 AM 3/10/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia > > >My alternator doesn't seem to have any #'s or markings to indicate it >origin - I was once told it was off a Mazda RX-7 - with built in >regulator. I know it has a built in regulator. > >I was told the large output terminal goes to the Bat. - I knew that one. > >Then we have two small terminals - fast-on male tabs - one vertical and >one horizontal - like a "T" . I"m told the top of the "T" is the switched >12V - supply which feeds the alternator field. Then the vertical stem of >the "T" would be for a light - you could run this to a light and then to >ground - then if the alternator failed, the light would light up. > >I"m hoping this is a standard way in which alternators are configued on >the hook up - does this sound right to anyone. I seem to recall a similar >Can I tell using an ohm meter - which terminal goes to the alternator >field and which would switch a light on and off? If I take the Top of >the "T" and put a positive ohm probe and then put the other ohm probe to >ground, I would get some resistance reading - but current should >flow. Well then what if I reverse the probes - are there perhaps diodes >in there which would prevent the current from flowing backwards?? if so >would this help indicate which terminal was for the alternator field? The ohmmeter check isn't going to be very helpful without knowing more about the alternator's internals . . . but if we knew those, we'd already have the answer to your question. >The Mazda technicians don't seem to know much either - they were no help >at all. > >does it sound right that the only alternator ground would just be the >contact it makes when bolted to the engine? I see not terminal on my >alternator for a ground hook up? People who work on cars are generally not much help. You need to talk to a tech in an OVERHAUL shop that works on the alternator's internals and even this might be a mixed bag. Usually the "Light" terminal pulls to ground to turn on the idiot light . . . so the other end of the light would go to (+) . . . When you're ready to run the engine for the first time, put a 100 ohm/1 watt resistor in series with the control lead to the alternator. Try one and then the other. The alternator will come on line only with the wire hooked to right terminal and the 100 ohm resistor will prevent damage to the regulator if it's the "wrong" terminal. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alt. Field Circuit Breaker --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:06 PM 3/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer > >Bob, > >I'm using the dual alternator (Z-10) on my Rocket. In order to get >power to the two 5 amp circuit breakers in my panel for the alternator >field current, I need to run a wire from the power post on the bus to >the breakers. This will be a distance of only a foot or so. What size >wire would be sufficient? Can I run the wire without a fusible link? >Thank you as always. You can do anything you want to. 1-foot isn't all that much more at-risk wire than the rule-of-thumb 6" that the FAA will bless. Your risks are minimal. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:03 PM PST US From: MikeEasley@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com So I can just run copper tape ~18" in all directions even though it will curve up the sides of the fuselage? What about aluminum foil? Mike ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:55 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes From: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" When I was considering an ADF (used as primary Navaid in Australia) for my Long EZ, I decided I needed a ground plane for the combined sense and loop antenna that came with the King KR-87 unit. Other than simply placing a large sheet of ground plane material in the structure (almost impossible in a Long EZ due to the compound curves and bulkheads), the plan was to create cross-hatch grid on the entire floor (longitudinally and laterally) of copper tape spaced 1" apart (ie.producing 1" squares) extending down the length of the fuselage bottom, then vacuum bag a ply of glass down onto the surface over the grid for protection. Each individual overlaid copper tape would be (read: needed to be) soldered to eachother with a 'jumper', and a small sheet of copper (the size of the antenna base) would be installed in the centre, and used to bolt the antenna in place, hence providing ground plane continuity. I would then have been able to sink the antenna into the fuselage bottom, and have no antenna mounted externally on the aircraft. A test showed the ground plane worked really well. Would work well also for XPDR and LORAN in glass composite regions of any aircraft.. Make sure you don't block out other antennas. NB: In the end I didn't do the installation, I sold the KR-87 and bought a GPS. Sorry fellas, no airtime. I remember years ago people also using aluminium foil (failures occurred if used in flexing structure, particularly gear leg comm antennas), and copper screen (difficult to hold in place without bagging, although it reportedly worked very well). Hope that helps. Cheers - Wayne Blackler IO-360 Long EZ Seattle, WA -----Original Message----- From: MikeEasley@aol.com [mailto:MikeEasley@aol.com] Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com So I can just run copper tape ~18" in all directions even though it will curve up the sides of the fuselage? What about aluminum foil? Mike ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:21 PM PST US From: "Neville Kilford" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" FWIW, I'm planning to make my ground planes from .020" alum. sheet. It's leftover stock from making stabilator trailing edges. I'm installing a 5 or 6" disc for the transponder, and six "spokes" for the COM. You can pick up the stuff from ACS. Hope this helps. Nev -- Neville Kilford Jodel D-150 in progress UK ----- Original Message ----- From: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" > > When I was considering an ADF (used as primary Navaid in Australia) for my Long EZ, I decided I needed a ground plane for the combined sense and loop antenna that came with the King KR-87 unit. Other than simply placing a large sheet of ground plane material in the structure (almost impossible in a Long EZ due to the compound curves and bulkheads), the plan was to create cross-hatch grid on the entire floor (longitudinally and laterally) of copper tape spaced 1" apart (ie.producing 1" squares) extending down the length of the fuselage bottom, then vacuum bag a ply of glass down onto the surface over the grid for protection. Each individual overlaid copper tape would be (read: needed to be) soldered to eachother with a 'jumper', and a small sheet of copper (the size of the antenna base) would be installed in the centre, and used to bolt the antenna in place, hence providing ground plane continuity. I would then have been able to sink the antenna into the fuselage bottom, and ! > have no antenna mounted externally on the aircraft. A test showed the ground plane worked really well. Would work well also for XPDR and LORAN in glass composite regions of any aircraft.. Make sure you don't block out other antennas. > > NB: In the end I didn't do the installation, I sold the KR-87 and bought a GPS. Sorry fellas, no airtime. > > I remember years ago people also using aluminium foil (failures occurred if used in flexing structure, particularly gear leg comm antennas), and copper screen (difficult to hold in place without bagging, although it reportedly worked very well). > > Hope that helps. > > Cheers > > - Wayne Blackler > IO-360 Long EZ > Seattle, WA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: MikeEasley@aol.com [mailto:MikeEasley@aol.com] > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com > > So I can just run copper tape ~18" in all directions even though it will > curve up the sides of the fuselage? What about aluminum foil? > > Mike > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:32 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:31 PM 3/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com > >So I can just run copper tape ~18" in all directions even though it will >curve up the sides of the fuselage? What about aluminum foil? I like to solder the tapes to a center disk upon which the antenna is mounted. If you make the disk out of thin brass and the radials out of copper, the whole installation process is much easier. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:52 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas that really don't need a ground plane ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:03 PM 3/10/2003 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glles.Thesee" > > > >----- Message d'origine ----- >De : "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > : >Envoy : lundi 10 mars 2003 21:46 >Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas that really don't need a ground >plane ? > > > > >Or maybe they are not quarterwave antennas ? > > > > right . . . they're center-fed, half-wave dipoles. > > > > Bob . . . > >Bob and Bill, > >Thank you. >Then they must be about twice as long, right ? yup . . . ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:51 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:54 PM 3/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" > > >FWIW, I'm planning to make my ground planes from .020" alum. sheet. It's >leftover stock from making stabilator trailing edges. > I'm installing a 5 or 6" disc for the transponder, If the ground plane is "small" . . . like less than a wavelength at frequency of interest, then it works best if "tuned" . . . i.e. exactly same radius as height of antenna or 5.3" diameter. >and six "spokes" for the COM. You can pick up >the stuff from ACS. The "spokes" should also be same as length of antenna when measured from the BASE of the antenna. If you mount on a brass plate for the purpose of commoning all the radials, then trim the radials for length from base of antenna, not from edge of mounting plate. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:06 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:15 PM 3/10/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" > > >When I was considering an ADF (used as primary Navaid in Australia) for my >Long EZ, I decided I needed a ground plane for the combined sense and loop >antenna that came with the King KR-87 unit. Other than simply placing a >large sheet of ground plane material in the structure (almost impossible >in a Long EZ due to the compound curves and bulkheads), the plan was to >create cross-hatch grid on the entire floor (longitudinally and laterally) >of copper tape spaced 1" apart (ie.producing 1" squares) extending down >the length of the fuselage bottom, then vacuum bag a ply of glass down >onto the surface over the grid for protection. Each individual overlaid >copper tape would be (read: needed to be) soldered to eachother with a >'jumper', and a small sheet of copper (the size of the antenna base) would >be installed in the centre, and used to bolt the antenna in place, hence >providing ground plane continuity. I would then have been able to sink the >antenna into the fuselage bottom, and ! >have no antenna mounted externally on the aircraft. A test showed the >ground plane worked really well. Would work well also for XPDR and LORAN >in glass composite regions of any aircraft.. Make sure you don't block out >other antennas. > >NB: In the end I didn't do the installation, I sold the KR-87 and bought a >GPS. Sorry fellas, no airtime. What you propose would be fine . . . but much too busy. When the opening in a sheet is less than 1/20th of a wavelength at frequency of interest, the hole is for all practical purposes non-existent. The smallest wavelength of interest for ADF happens at the upper end of broadcast band (300/1.7MHz = 176 METERS for full wavelength, 8 meters for 1/20th). Going to that much trouble for an ADF installation is overkill. The ADF sense antenna is a super-short, pure e-field antenna (like the am antenna on your car) and is totally independent of effects of what might be considered a classic ground plane. The loop is an h-field antenna which doesn't use/need a ground plane either . . . with a small caveat. Accuracy of the nulled signal for good direction finding is affected by local fields. These effects can be minimized by mounting the loop in what might be called a ground plane . . . but as I recall, this was really useful only at the fringes of the ADF's receiving range. When shooting ADF approaches, you are so close to the ground-based facilities that the local ground plane didn't make much improvement. Haven't messed with an ADF installation in over 25 years. Don't miss 'em one bit. For vhf antennas, the simple radial ground plane is very easy to implement with strips of copper tape. 4 radials is the minimum, for more than 8 radials is difficult to measure the improvement when the 9th one is added. >I remember years ago people also using aluminium foil (failures occurred >if used in flexing structure, particularly gear leg comm antennas), and >copper screen (difficult to hold in place without bagging, although it >reportedly worked very well). I've heard lots of stories about broken antennas glassed into gear legs. Copper and aluminum are both pretty poor materials for conductors that need to withstand routine flexing. Inside surface of fuselage is pretty stable. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:49 PM PST US From: John Loram Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Loram Ideally the ground plane would be flat and infinite. Once you are greater that the length of the antenna, extending the ground plane has rapidly diminishing effects. Curling the ground plane up around the radiating element will both lower the resonance of the antenna (push the center of the effective band of frequencies downward), and impact the omnidirectionality of the antenna. Assuming only a small amount of upward curl (a few inches), there shouldn't be much trouble. Try it, if you feel you aren't getting out like you've experienced in other a/c, get some help from a radio shop or a smart radio amateur. -john- johnl@loram.org www.loram.org -----Original Message----- From: MikeEasley@aol.com [mailto:MikeEasley@aol.com] Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com So I can just run copper tape ~18" in all directions even though it will curve up the sides of the fuselage? What about aluminum foil? Mike ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:52 PM PST US From: bernieC@erols.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall Effect Ammeters] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: bernieC@erols.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall Effect Ammeters I can confirm that a hall effect sensor is included in the MicroMonitor kit. This one is impressed with the name "MICRO SWITCH, Freeport, Ill. U.S.A.". It is also inked with a number '9948' followed by 'CSLA1CE'. I wonder what the Mircoswitch/Honeywell relationship is. Looks like it is a 75 amp device vice the 'f' version 100 amp rating. Bernie C. "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > The MicroMonitor uses a hall effect device. The > last time I saw one installed they were using > a Honeywell product. You can browse the > complete line of Honeywell current sensors > at > > http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/current/ > > check out the CSLA1CF open loop sensor at > > http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/printfriendly.asp?FAM=current&PN=CSLA1CF > > and a closed loop sensor at > > http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/printfriendly.asp?FAM=current&PN=CSNA111-500 > > Didn't find anyone other than MicroMonitor > taking advantage of this technology in a > product. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:34 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" >>I remember years ago people also using aluminium foil (failures >> occurred if used in flexing structure, particularly gear leg comm >> antennas), and copper screen (difficult to hold in place without >> bagging, although it reportedly worked very well). > > I've heard lots of stories about broken antennas glassed > into gear legs. Copper and aluminum are both pretty poor > materials for conductors that need to withstand routine > flexing. Inside surface of fuselage is pretty stable. > > Bob . . . I suspect that the problem with the copper isn't so much flex failures as stretch failure. I would imagine that the the distance around the circumferance of the inside of the gear bow increases more than the copper can stretch repeatedly. If the foil could be incorporated within the middle of the layup it would probably stand a better chance of surviving. Regards, Matt- do not archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:22 PM PST US From: "Rick Fogerson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual E.I. and Batteries, single Alt. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" Hi Bob, I'm about ready to order my electrical stuff and wanted to confirm some things about my wiring diagram. Background: I'm building a fairly simple panel for a day-VFR RV3. I took fig. Z-11 and added Z-23 (test adapter), Z-28 (dual E.I.), and Z-30 (aux battery & bus). I am placing the dual batteries with their contactors and buses in back and installing B&C's starter, alternator, and voltage regulator. Questions: 1) I am co-locating the buses in back even though you have to run more wires from each bus foreward. I assume this is still true with my system? 2) I used 10AWG for the aux bat bus and 16AWG for the main. Can't remember why though? 3) Is it a good idea to combine the aux bat master sw with the essential bus alt feed sw into an S700-2-10 switch so that when you open the aux bat master sw you also close the essential bus alt feed sw (power from main bus to lead 5 and lead 6 to essential bus)? ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:07 PM PST US From: Rino Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Planes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rino A transponder antenna that close to your passengers "private parts" might not be the best thing to do. The radiation may do some damage. Rino MikeEasley@aol.com wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com > > I have an Artex ELT-200 with a 18.75" whip antenna. My plan is to mount it > on a composite prepreg shelf inside the aft fueselage. My guess is I need a > ground plane. How large does it need to be? > > I also have a CI-101 Transponder antenna that I'm mounting under the rear > seat. What size should the ground plane be? > > Mike Easley > Lancair ES > -- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:54 PM 3/10/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rino > >A transponder antenna that close to your passengers "private parts" >might not be the best thing to do. The radiation may do some damage. > >Rino A hangar myth. Folks have looked at the peak output power rating of a transponder (100 to 250W) and tried to make a connection between a desire to make one's airplane visible to a distant radar receiver and cooking meat. When you buy a microwave, it too is rated in the hundreds of watts . . . but CONTINUOUS duty. A good 700W microwave will boil a cup of water in about 2 minutes. (Remember the traveler's immersion heaters in the hardware store? They're 300W heaters and take about 4 minutes to boil a cup of water). If you measure the current draw of this machine, it will be on the order of 8-9 amps or 1000W total input. Your transponder draws about 1.5 amps while being interrogated for a total input power of 18W. The output comes in the form of a series of 0.5 uSec pulses in respond to an interrogation that represent a string of binary numbers representing either your squawk code (mode A) or altitude (mode C). Assuming you are interrogated once per second (quite often) your average output power for a 250W transponder is on the order of 250W x 20 pulses x 0.0000005 seconds/1 second or 2.5 milliwatts per second. This isn't going even going to warm up much less cook anything. Another fallacy of the myth concerns body parts most sensitive to microwave radiation . . . turns out that your eyes are the most vulnerable . . . but the story isn't nearly so interesting to really macho pilots. None the less, there are folks who have armor-shielded their seat bottoms in deference to this myth. The story was REALLY popular about 15 years ago in the heyday of the Long-Ezs Here's a post I did on a canard pusher list server about 5 years ago: > Location away from the pilot/co-pilot is also >recommended but over ten feet requires a different cable. Yes?? I was >thinking about locating it aft of the pilot in the baggage area. Is that >distance safe? A totally bogus recommendation. A few years back, someone observed that their transponder was rated for 200 watts output . . . 1/3rd that of the family microwave. Our hero was immediately concerned for preservation of the family jewels and proceeded to line the bottom of his composite seat pan with aluminum foil. What he failed to understand was that his RF coffee warmer and popcorn popper was rated in continuous watts while the transponder was in peak watts. The average power output from a transponder is less than 1 watt . . . BTW, the eyes are about 100 times more sensitive to the effects of microwave heating than are any deep organs . . . you'll go blind you quit making babies. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= ================================= http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:56 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall Effect Ammeters] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" Honeywell owns Microswitch. bernieC@erols.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: bernieC@erols.com > > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall Effect Ammeters >Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 19:46:54 -0500 >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > >I can confirm that a hall effect sensor is included in the >MicroMonitor kit. This one is impressed with the name "MICRO >SWITCH, Freeport, Ill. U.S.A.". It is also inked with a number >'9948' followed by 'CSLA1CE'. I wonder what the >Mircoswitch/Honeywell relationship is. Looks like it is a 75 amp >device vice the 'f' version 100 amp rating. > >Bernie C. > > >"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> >> The MicroMonitor uses a hall effect device. The >> last time I saw one installed they were using >> a Honeywell product. You can browse the >> complete line of Honeywell current sensors >> at >> >>http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/current/ >> >> check out the CSLA1CF open loop sensor at >> >>http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/printfriendly.asp?FAM=current&PN=CSLA1CF >> >> and a closed loop sensor at >> >>http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/printfriendly.asp?FAM=current&PN=CSNA111-500 >> >> Didn't find anyone other than MicroMonitor >> taking advantage of this technology in a >> product. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hall Effect Ammeters --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:09 PM 3/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: bernieC@erols.com > > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall Effect Ammeters >Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 19:46:54 -0500 >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > >I can confirm that a hall effect sensor is included in the >MicroMonitor kit. This one is impressed with the name "MICRO >SWITCH, Freeport, Ill. U.S.A.". It is also inked with a number >'9948' This is a date code. 48th week of 1999 for manufacture. > followed by 'CSLA1CE'. I wonder what the >Mircoswitch/Honeywell relationship is. Looks like it is a 75 amp >device vice the 'f' version 100 amp rating. Sounds right. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:41 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > > >A transponder antenna that close to your passengers "private parts" > >might not be the best thing to do. The radiation may do some damage. > > > >Rino > > A hangar myth. Folks have looked at the > peak output power rating of a transponder (100 to 250W) > and tried to make a connection between a desire to > make one's airplane visible to a distant radar receiver > and cooking meat. OK, here are true stories: There is a guy at my work who wears an aluminum foil hat, somewhat reminiscent of a dunce cap, interestingly, because our building is near some 230kv power lines. No kidding. 30 years ago when a new power transmission line was being built across some farmland in my state, the news "reporters" were reporting, without questioning it, of course, that farmers were putting electric motors in the fields under the new power lines and that they were running without any cords. We do indeed have some education to do in this country... Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 265 hours, dialing up the power on my transponder to make me more comfortable in the winter. www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:40 PM PST US From: John Rourke Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Rourke Alex Peterson wrote: . > > 30 years ago when a new power transmission line was being built across > some farmland in my state, the news "reporters" were reporting, without > questioning it, of course, that farmers were putting electric motors in > the fields under the new power lines and that they were running without > any cords. > > We do indeed have some education to do in this country... Don't laugh too hard. When I was 12 I did a science fair project, where I did something similar... I set up a resonant circuit at some harmonic of 60 Hz, and did manage to pull energy "out of the air", rectify it, and show a voltage on a meter - I did get enough voltage, but not enough current to run anything, but I figured if I got a big enough cap I just might. I didn't, though, as I was informed that I could be charged with theft of the power line energy. That sounded pretty ridiculous to me, but now people are going to jail for "stealing" EM energy from satellites... I guess I was just ahead of my time?? ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:06 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual E.I. and Batteries, single Alt. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:48 PM 3/10/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" > >Hi Bob, >I'm about ready to order my electrical stuff and wanted to confirm some >things about my wiring diagram. > >Background: >I'm building a fairly simple panel for a day-VFR RV3. I took fig. Z-11 >and added Z-23 (test adapter), Z-28 (dual E.I.), and Z-30 (aux battery & >bus). I am placing the dual batteries with their contactors and buses in >back and installing B&C's starter, alternator, and voltage regulator. > >Questions: >1) I am co-locating the buses in back even though you have to run more >wires from each bus foreward. I assume this is still true with my system? yes . . . >2) I used 10AWG for the aux bat bus and 16AWG for the main. Can't >remember why though? hmmm . . . 16 is probably adequate for a battery bus >3) Is it a good idea to combine the aux bat master sw with the essential >bus alt feed sw into an S700-2-10 switch so that when you open the aux bat >master sw you also close the essential bus alt feed sw (power from main >bus to lead 5 and lead 6 to essential bus)? having trouble visualizing the wiring and your intent. I'm not sure how/why you want to tie closure of alternate feed path with the act of turning the aux battery master off. Can you elaborate on the value of doing this? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:42 PM PST US From: Duncan McBride Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Noise in 760 installation --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Duncan McBride The headphone and microphone wiring appears to be ok. Here's the thing - the aluminum chassis is connected to ground. With the radio removed from the panel and disconected from everything, I've checked the resistance between the two ground pins and the chassis and it is zero. Unless there is some kind of short inside the box, it looks like the ground wires are only necessary if the radio is not installed in a grounded panel. I suppose I could use nylon machine screws to mount it, but as soon as I connected the ground wires the chassis is grounded. And here's another consideration: the antenna jack is fixed to the rear of the chassis, too, so the antenna ground will be directly connected to the airplane ground, whether you use the ground pins or the panel connection. This isn't recommended from what I've read in the archives. Can this be normal? I'll try a separate battery source tomorrow and if that works I'll try the filter. I'll try an email to MicroAir to see if the radio should be working this way. Thanks. > > Try running the radio from a 12 battery independent of > the ship's electrical system. A couple of 6v lantern > batteries from WalMart will work fine. If the radio > is quiet with independent battery, then a filter > like the one cited will probably fix it. > > > >Maybe not related, when I checked the 760 wiring after noticing the noise, > >I realized I had forgotten to hook up the ground wires. Except for the > >noise it had worked just fine. Hooking the ground wires up didn't change > >anything. Must be that the chassis is grounded where it fastens to the > >panel, or is that a problem too? Thanks for your help. > > > Whoops! If it worked AT ALL with the power ground wire > disconnected, then it's probable that the radio was > finding an operating ground from some path that it > shouldn't have . . . are your microphone and headset > jacks insulated from ground? > > See paragraph 2.4 in http://216.55.140.222/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf > > Check for proper mic/headset jack wiring before > trying the battery test or adding a filter. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:25 PM PST US From: Duncan McBride Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Duncan McBride I do remember flying my old Ringmaster control-line stunt plane too close to the power lines one afternoon and getting an electric shock through the EZ-Just handle, which routed a braided cable around the grip, attached to the steel lines at either end. The back of your hand laid alongside the cable. I remember walking the plane away from the power lines until the shock went away. Probably why I'm childless to this day. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Rourke" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Rourke > > > Alex Peterson wrote: > > . > > > > > 30 years ago when a new power transmission line was being built across > > some farmland in my state, the news "reporters" were reporting, without > > questioning it, of course, that farmers were putting electric motors in > > the fields under the new power lines and that they were running without > > any cords. > > > > We do indeed have some education to do in this country... > > Don't laugh too hard. > > When I was 12 I did a science fair project, where I did something > similar... I set up a resonant circuit at some harmonic of 60 Hz, and > did manage to pull energy "out of the air", rectify it, and show a > voltage on a meter - I did get enough voltage, but not enough current to > run anything, but I figured if I got a big enough cap I just might. > > I didn't, though, as I was informed that I could be charged with theft > of the power line energy. That sounded pretty ridiculous to me, but now > people are going to jail for "stealing" EM energy from satellites... I > guess I was just ahead of my time?? > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:46 PM PST US From: John Loram Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Loram I hesitate to perpetuate this story (and reveal my gullibility); My dad was a civil engineer who worked for the Pacific Gas & Electric company laying out long transmission lines and supervising their installation. I spent one summer about 50 years ago with him, driving the back roads of California on his job and he told me that one of the reasons that the transmission lines are rotated every few thousand feet (they don't just stay in the same relative position for the full run) was to prevent farmers from laying a loop of lines parallel to the transmission lines and inductively coupling some free watt hours. I went on to become an electrical engineer (electronics, not power) and still don't know if he was pulling my leg, though it wasn't in his nature. -john- john@loram.org www.loram.org -----Original Message----- From: Alex Peterson [mailto:alexpeterson@usjet.net] Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > > >A transponder antenna that close to your passengers "private parts" > >might not be the best thing to do. The radiation may do some damage. > > > >Rino > > A hangar myth. Folks have looked at the > peak output power rating of a transponder (100 to 250W) > and tried to make a connection between a desire to > make one's airplane visible to a distant radar receiver > and cooking meat. OK, here are true stories: There is a guy at my work who wears an aluminum foil hat, somewhat reminiscent of a dunce cap, interestingly, because our building is near some 230kv power lines. No kidding. 30 years ago when a new power transmission line was being built across some farmland in my state, the news "reporters" were reporting, without questioning it, of course, that farmers were putting electric motors in the fields under the new power lines and that they were running without any cords. We do indeed have some education to do in this country... Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 265 hours, dialing up the power on my transponder to make me more comfortable in the winter. www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:17 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fast-on current ratings? From: czechsix@juno.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com What is the max current rating for Fastons (particularly the .250 and .11 sizes)? I don't recall seeing a published number anywhere but I'm sure the data must exist... Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D firewall forward and wiring... ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:17 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Microair com to intercom wiring schematic? From: czechsix@juno.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com Bob, Didn't you have a wiring diagram for the Microair com radio to an voice-activated intercom? Seems like I recall seeing you post a link to it on your website some time ago (for the harness you sell) but I can't find it now. I'm connecting the Microair to the popular FlightComm 403 intercom that Vans sells....pretty sure I know how to hook it up correctly but thought I'd save myself the trouble of drawing it out if it's already been done... Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D firewall forward and wiring...