Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . (Miller Robert)
2. 06:14 AM - Re: Dual E.I. and Batteries, single Alt. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:31 AM - Re: RG battery location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 06:36 AM - Re: 12 vs 28 volts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 06:40 AM - VHF antennas (Fergus Kyle)
6. 06:55 AM - Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 06:59 AM - Re: Alt. Field Circuit Breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 08:43 AM - Re: Clock consumption (Paul Messinger)
9. 09:20 AM - Re: 12 vs 28 volts (Phil Birkelbach)
10. 09:33 AM - Re: runaway, self regulated alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 10:19 AM - Double OVM-14's (Julia)
12. 10:28 AM - Good deals on hardware from B&B Aircraft (czechsix@juno.com)
13. 10:46 AM - Fuseblocks (czechsix@juno.com)
14. 10:55 AM - Electric RC Allen A/H Woes Part 2 (Rob Miller)
15. 11:51 AM - Re: RG battery location (Freddie Freeloader)
16. 12:11 PM - Re: Electric RC Allen A/H Woes Part 2 (John Rourke)
17. 12:30 PM - Re: Double OVM-14's (Matt Prather)
18. 01:38 PM - Re: Fuseblocks (Neil McLeod)
19. 02:12 PM - 12 vs 28 volts (David.vonLinsowe)
20. 02:12 PM - Re: Electric RC Allen A/H Woes Part 2 (Peter Laurence)
21. 02:14 PM - Re: Fuseblocks (Matt Prather)
22. 02:22 PM - Data logger (David.vonLinsowe)
23. 02:49 PM - Re: Data logger (Matt Prather)
24. 03:11 PM - Re: 12 vs 28 volts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 03:21 PM - Re: Fuseblocks (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 03:27 PM - Re: Double OVM-14's (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 03:37 PM - Re: Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . (Alex Peterson)
28. 03:40 PM - Re: Data logger (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
29. 06:13 PM - Re: Fuseblocks (N566u@aol.com)
30. 07:20 PM - Re: Fuseblocks (C J Heitman)
31. 07:30 PM - multi-wire cable (Ed Holyoke)
32. 08:13 PM - Re: Fuseblocks (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
33. 08:41 PM - Re: multi-wire cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
34. 08:43 PM - Re: RFI (MARK H DELANO)
35. 09:51 PM - Re: multi-wire cable (Ed Holyoke)
36. 10:24 PM - Re: Fuseblocks (Terry Watson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Miller Robert <rmiller3@earthlink.net>
John Loram wrote:
> All this said, there's no good science that indicates a problem with an
> individual standing near an electrical transmission line.
> -john-
>
I can't agree here. I think that that statement may have been true until about
a decade ago (as Bob said). But since, several good prospective studies have
been completed showing health risks with exposure over time to common
electromagnetic fields. I reference again the Swedish study that identified
risk in many household items and even the fields around the flourescent lights
we all work under. A number, now, of good studies have appeared supporting
these results, which are as good science as any of us do.
Unfortunately, I've been around long enough to know that even good science
isn't always going to be everlasting reality. (Witness the new view of neutron
stars and "strange quark stars" published this past year. A lot of people got
their degrees writing theses using the old model, now turned on its head.
That's the fun of doing science.) But until, and if, equally good opposing
studies are published, it is not fair to say "there is no good science." The
science showing risk is good.
Robert
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Loram <johnl@loram.org>
>
> Well, I must confess that this all peaked my interest, so I did a bit of
> Internet searching and it appears that my dad was not pulling my leg. Here
> are some references:
>
> http://www.pipe-line.com/archive/archive_99-06/99-06_induced-smart.html
> This describes some of the problems that occur when a well insulated pipe
> line follows a power line corridor. I spoke with the primary author of this
> paper and he said that a 1/2 mile of wire will work just fine for
> substantial currents. He said power companies "really don't like it"!
>
> http://www.sestech.com/software_packages/row.asp
> This is a software package from a Canadian company that computes "the
> voltages and currents transferred from electric power lines and cables to
> pipelines and railways, whether buried or above ground."
>
> http://www.mitton.co.nz/emf.html
> A New Zealand consulting company that helps power companies solve these
> problems.
>
> http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r5/denver/rockymountainemc/2001symposium/2001techpro
> g.htm#Title:%20Interference%20of%20AC%20Power%20Transmission%20Lines%20with%
> 20Railroad%20Signal%20Systems
> An IEEE paper describing the problems that railroads have.
>
> http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist5~1/5~1_14.htm
> This US Bureau of Reclamation document has a table of voltages and currents
> found on deenergized power lines that parallel energized lines. I know that
> the Tracy-Contra Costa line (600 volts, 49 amps) is tens of miles long.
>
> So, the bottom bottom line is that there are significant safety issues for
> pipe lines, telecommunication lines, and railway workers due to induced and
> through-earth coupling and apparently you can deliberately pick up useful
> and sometimes dangerous amounts of electrical energy.
>
> All this said, there's no good science that indicates a problem with an
> individual standing near an electrical transmission line.
> -john-
> p.s. No, I never did find any stories about farmers... ;-)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Dual E.I. and Batteries, single Alt. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> > Bob . . .
>Perhaps I didn't give this as much thought as I should have. I only saw an
>opportunity to eliminate a switch.
>My thought was that with a low voltage light, I would open both the main
>battery and the aux battery contactor to remove power from the main power
>bus. I would at the same time need to close the essential bus alternate
>feed switch to keep power to the essential bus. I see now that when I shut
>down, I would be leaving power to the essential bus. Not a good idea. Is
>there any good way to reduce from three switches
Probably . . . but keep in mind that the "elegant solutions"
minimize the sharing of hardware between functions that back
each other up. For example, I just mailed a power distribution
diagram back to a reader who was proposing that ign #1, and ign #2
share a common fuse and be selected from a single-pole,
double-throw switch. With this arrangement, mechanical failures
of switch or wiring between switch and bus disables both ignition
systems. Also, electrical failure of one blows the fuse and
kills both.
Failure tolerance is achieved by maximizing the distance
between complimentary systems, not bringing them closer
together.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RG battery location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 03:06 PM 3/11/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Howard Ogle <pub@macrotechcorp.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>What are your thoughts with placing the battery(s) inside the cockpit
>behind the
>instrument panel?
>
>I'm building an all electric Glasair III with dual alternators, dual
>batteries,
>electronic ignition, etc. One of the results of having EFIS flat screens as
>primary displays, combined with the compactness of RG batteries, there is
>space
>for the battery behind the instrument panel. Conventionally, the battery in
>Glasairs has either been located on the firewall or behind the pilot or
>copilot
>seats. The majority of Glasair IIIs that I have seen have their battery(s)
>located on the firewall, partially due to CG and partially due to convenience.
>Now with the advent of RG batteries and EFIS with smaller electronics,
>what are
>the pros and cons to having the battery(s) in the panel? (I say battery(s),
>because I haven't made a final decision on whether I want to carry the extra
>weight of two batteries, verses, the extra redundancy.)
Keep in mind that two batteries does not have to mean 2x
the weight. First, a properly maintained RG battery is going
to be the most reliable power source in your airplane. If you
want/need the reliability offered by separate batteries,
then how about two SMALLER batteries. Besides if you're doing
all-electric with two alternators and assuming further that
you choose B&C alternators, then you are on solid ground
running your airplane battery like your car battery. Flog
it until it quits cranking. You're not going to find
yourself aloft with a dark panel. Assembled and maintained
with due diligence, Figure Z-11 with B&C hardware gives you
reliability with simplicity unequaled anywhere else in aviation.
>I see some advantage inside the cabin. The battery would not see the same
>temperature extremes as it would on the firewall. Contactors would also
>enjoy a
>more friendly environment. Taking the battery off the firewall allows more
>room
>for engine maintenance or more room for that inverted oil system. In my case,
>I'm mounting two oil coolers at the rear of the engine with the air
>exiting down
>and out the cowl flaps. Having no firewall battery offers some extra room for
>controlling airflow aft of the engine. Plus, it keeps warm air away from the
>batteries and contactors.
>
>Another advantage is fewer wires to run through the firewall. Even though
>there
>certainly are plenty of other wires (EGT, CHT, temp, pressure, etc.). The more
>critical wires that control battery contactors, crossfeed, and starter relay
>would remain inside. Presumably, a slightly more reliable relay system would
>result. Also, the main and aux bus feeds would originate and stay inside with
>very short runs. A central ground point can still be maintained. However, the
>fat starter, alternator and engine ground runs would lengthen about a foot.
>
>As far as gaining access to the battery, I've devised a panel design that
>would
>allow access to the battery probably as easy or easier than removing the
>Glasair
>cowl. A counter point to this would be that now there would be another
>location
>(the panel mounted battery) that would require routine maintenance (regular
>battery replacement).
>
>RG batteries are ideally maintenance free. Under normal conditions; they don't
>expel gases or puke acid. Yet, they have a small vent hole. Extreme over
>charging an RG battery can cause it to overheat and vent some gases. I
>have not
>found any information that quantifies this. Nonetheless, I would think that a
>proper system with OV protection, maintained and monitored at a reasonable
>charging level (assuming 13.8V) should not cause any gases to be expelled.
>Obviously there are concerns of dripping acid or battery fumes this close to
>pilot and passenger. Additionally, there are nearby expensive electronics, as
>well. Traditional thinking would lead one to think a battery in this location
>would be no good. But, everyday I walk past a room full of expensive internet
>computers that are battery backed up with the same battery technology.
>There is
>not even a second thought given to the same twenty 17Ah batteries in the
>equipment racks within inches of other electronics. Yes, they are inside
>aluminum UPS cases. But, the cases are vented alongside the computers. So, if
>designers of computer UPS systems see no problem with RG batteries being in
>close proximity to expensive electronics, why should we worry about this
>issue?
>Although, unlike the computer room, our airplane environment sees extreme
>altitude and pressure changes. Does this have an effect on the environmental
>cleanliness of RG batteries?
A characteristic of smaller RG batteries that makes them so very
inexpensive these days is the fact that they are manufactured
by the millions for use as backup power in un-interruptible power
supplies for computers. These batteries live quietly under the
desks of countless workers who will never be aware of their
existence. Not true should the battery be of the flooded variety.
Had one charging on my workbench a few months ago, could smell
it from across the room.
Van's designs have mounted batteries in the cabin since
day-one. A Tri-Pacer I used to fly had the battery under
the right-front seat. There is no good reason why a battery
cannot comfortably co-exist with people in the same space . . .
even if it's flooded but ESPECIALLY an RG design.
RG batteries are the product of choice. They don't need a battery
box (in fact are safer if you DON'T have a battery box). They
deliver superior performance compared to flooded batteries of
yesteryear in EVERY environmental regard.
>One thought would be to put the battery in a sealed box only vented to the
>outside world. But, this might be completely unnecessary and certainly
>complicates a panel mounted installation. Not to mention, it makes routine
>battery replacement a little more difficult. At some point, the battery
>might as
>well be back out on the firewall.
>
>Of course, there is the concern of safety. First, let's assume the battery
>mount
>can withstand at least 10Gs. Beyond that in a crash hard enough to potentially
>rupture an RG battery, I don't think it makes much difference which side of
>firewall the battery is located. A crash this hard is probably fatal
>anyway. As
>far as sparks, having the master switch OFF is the best defense against post
>crash fire caused by electrical faults. I don't see where battery location
>makes
>much difference. Sparks generally come from wires, not the battery. Regardless
>of battery location, precautions need to be made with wires running near
>header
>fuel lines, either way.
>
>After many years of having the battery located on firewall or in a compartment
>away from occupants and equipment, there is something emotionally wrong with
>locating it in the panel. But, unless my logic is flawed, what are the
>negatives
>to a panel location? With ever shrinking electronics, flat panel displays
>and RG
>batteries, why not put the battery behind the panel, even in close
>proximity to
>occupants and electronics? I welcome comments and feedback.
Let not your heart be troubled . . . for all the fire-breathing
capabilities of an RG battery, you have never had a greater
opportunity to design your airplane for efficiency of space and
function with virtually no risk from the concerns cited. Mount
it where it fits best.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 12 vs 28 volts |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:47 PM 3/11/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Schiff" <tomschiff@attbi.com>
>
>I am beginning to scrounge "Stuff" for my GlaStar that should be
>finished in the fall of 2004. Just wondered if most homebuilts are 12
>volt. I keep hearing about automotive alternators and I assume that they
>are 12 volt or can they be regulated out to 28 volt.
>
>Can most avionics (not the newest King KX155's which are 28 volt only)
>be had in 12 volt versions?
The majority of homebuilts are indeed 12/14 volt systems.
This allows one to maximize utilization of automotive
hardware that for the most part, is equal to or better than
much of what's 'certified'.
If it were my airplane, I'd build a 14v machine and select
hardware that runs in that environment. I've never understood
the rational for building a 28v machine because "the radio(s)
I want to put in the plane are only available in 28v".
In the long run, the cost of ownership in time and maintenance
dollars for a 14v electrical system will be much less than
a 28v system.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
"> Is it better/worse/same for the ground plane to curve towards the antenna
> tip> >or away from it?"
It is worse. The ideal 1/4wavelength Monopole (or vertical
quarterwave) GENERALLY requires the radiator to be a small percentage
shorter than [1/4 wavelength in air] because it is in metal which has
different transmission speed, reversal delays and end effects. For the same
reason, the groundplane against which the 1/4wave works, is very slightly
longer. We're talking 1 or 2%.
Secondly, the ideal groundplane for a vertical 1/4wave should
droop away from the vertical element at 45deg in order to concentrate the
transmission horizontally at 360deg. Also, any disassociated metal material
within about 1/2wavelength will distort an ideal radiation pattern.
Thirdly, the size and extent of the groundplane affects the
impedance of the antenna at the working frequency.
Fourth, since most ground antennas are vertical [vertically
polarised], the ideal antenna should be too, since a horizontal antenna will
lose up to 20db when 90deg out of plane. 20db is a discernable amount to
most ears.
While all of this is true (viz.ARRL Antenna Book, 2nd to 7th
ed.), the practicality of all this is that one attempts to approach the
ideal to 'tweak' the signal for maximum strength in most directions. Bob is
as usual right about not fussing too much about perfection, but to follow
common sense in achieving the above, to instal it and to try it out.
Vertical 1/4waves are the simplest, and easiest, and most common
in homebuilts. Of course there are other forms of transceiver antenna, and
since we are not designers, it's best to follow the maker's instructions in
those. i hope this corrects the impression of many that if the connector
matches, the hookup is perfect. If you really want to perfect the system, I
suggest again to contact the local Amateur Radio Club and fish for an old
ham - he's probably built and tested 30 antennas.
Good hunting,
Ferg
diesel Europa
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:14 PM 3/11/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Loram <johnl@loram.org>
>
>Well, I must confess that this all peaked my interest, so I did a bit of
>Internet searching and it appears that my dad was not pulling my leg. Here
>are some references:
<snip>
>So, the bottom bottom line is that there are significant safety issues for
>pipe lines, telecommunication lines, and railway workers due to induced and
>through-earth coupling and apparently you can deliberately pick up useful
>and sometimes dangerous amounts of electrical energy.
>
>All this said, there's no good science that indicates a problem with an
>individual standing near an electrical transmission line.
>-john-
>p.s. No, I never did find any stories about farmers... ;-)
Sure. Keep in mind that all of the instances cited are
situations where there are LONG, parallel conductors
involved. Large floating (insulated) conductors become
an issue too (remember grounding leads attached to
airplanes before the line man approaches the tank
with a fuel hose?). I got the snot knocked out of
me on an antenna maintenance climb in the oil patch
about 40 years ago. The tower had been put up by
the owner. Somewhere, he got the idea that it was
a good thing to put insulators in both ends of his
guy lines. I didn't know enough to look and pay attention.
At the top of the tower, I grabbed the insulated
portion of a guy line than was probably 300+ feet in
length. The static charge on this line was really
attention getting.
My boss told the owner that we were going to make
some "modifications" to his installation and bill
him for them before we would do any more maintenance
on his system. This was a 170' tower with guy lines
every 30'. We went back out and put bonding
jumpers over the insulators on all 15 guy wires.
The problem is that all of these things which are
calculable, predictable and have operational
considerations for folks in the businesses cited,
tend to be extrapolated into new stories and ideas.
The idea that any farmer owns enough land under
a power line to "steal" useful amounts of energy from
it just doesn't fly in the real world.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Alt. Field Circuit Breaker |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:30 PM 3/11/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: VECSEYA@aol.com
>
>
> We have an SNJ-4 with 24 volt electrical system, they
> tell me
>the battery will last for about 20 starts and then goes dead. I inquired
>about their trouble shooting and was advised they had replaced the reverse
>current relay and flashed the generator field, no help. I suggested, rather
>than a no charge situation, they have a low amp drain? Any suggestions on
>trouble shooting.
Get a meter out and find out. What's the bus voltage with the
engine running and generator on? What's a "low-amp drain"? Are there
things attached to the battery when the master switch is off?
On what evidence of malfunction was the relay replaced?
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Clock consumption |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@tenforward.com>
Comments at end of snipped reply.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Clock consumption
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 09:41 AM 3/10/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger"
> ><paulm@tenforward.com>
>
> >This connection is "another" failure mode of internal regulators that
cannot
> >be stopped by removing the connection to the ign switch. Sure the field
> >power transistor can short but its also likely that a failure can be
> >internal to the regulator that turns on that transistor.
> >
> >This can lead to a rare alternator failure where an internal output
circuit
> >short (diodes perhaps) can result in a self excited overload that ends up
in
> >a fire. Why its so important to have control of the field supply and why
I
> >would never have an internal regulated setup on my aircraft where the "B"
> >lead supplied the internal regulator.
>
> sure . . . this is where the b-lead contactor for ov disconnect
> came into being . . .
I agreed with the above "protection" until recently when I looked into the
result of the failure mode after the "B" lead was disconnected as above.
More analysis showed me that while protecting the aircraft electronics, the
"B" lead contactor did nothing to protect the alternator from severe over
heating and possible fire. Thus I have concluded that the above protection
circuit is only a partial fix and that ANY alternator protection circuit for
aircraft must also disconnect the field current.
Thus its necessary to either use an externally connected regulator or break
the internal regulator to "B" lead connection. In some alternators this is a
very simple cut and in others its not practical to do.
The "B" lead contactor is opened due to an alternator overvoltage from some
failure in the internal regulator. Its reasonable to assume this is from a
total loss of control of field current and one likely result is full
alternator output voltage is applied to the field thru the internal "B" lead
connection.
Alternators can be considered current sources and the output voltage will
rise (with unregulated field current) to what ever level is needed to find a
load that will sink the output current. Thus when the "B" lead contactor
opens, the alternator voltage will rise as there is only the field load
remaining (plus any internal shorted components).
The rising output voltage will rise until the internal diodes start shorting
out from overvoltage and this provides additional load (HEAT).
In aircraft there is no way to stop the turning of the alternator and my
analysis suggests the overheated alternator can really get hot and start to
affect nearby engine components.
In conclusion I am not sure that protecting the avionics and letting the
engine compartment overheat and possibly catching fire is worth the use of
an internally regulated alternator and blissfully thinking that the OV
controlled "B" lead contactor is sufficient protection.
Short of a actual test, I remain unconvinced that a simple disconnect of the
output ("B") lead of an 'out of control alternator' is safe for aircraft.
Also testing would need to be performed on each brand etc of proposed
alternator as internal failure modes are likely to differ due to internal
construction. Would the load burn the windings open before the unit got hot
enough to cause secondary damage??
The additional cost for an externally regulated alternator is likely to be
far less than 1% of the cost of the total aircraft it seems foolish to me to
even consider using an internally regulated alternator.
Paul
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 12 vs 28 volts |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
What about using a DC-DC converter? I found a bunch of them on Google.
Here is the search that I did...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=dc+to+dc+converter+12
v+24v
Don't know if there are any drawbacks (noise issues, etc) They seem
somewhat heavy, and I didn't find any prices so they may cost a mint but it
would allow you to use a 24VDC radio in a 12VDC system.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12 vs 28 volts
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 11:47 PM 3/11/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Schiff"
<tomschiff@attbi.com>
> >
> >I am beginning to scrounge "Stuff" for my GlaStar that should be
> >finished in the fall of 2004. Just wondered if most homebuilts are 12
> >volt. I keep hearing about automotive alternators and I assume that they
> >are 12 volt or can they be regulated out to 28 volt.
> >
> >Can most avionics (not the newest King KX155's which are 28 volt only)
> >be had in 12 volt versions?
>
> The majority of homebuilts are indeed 12/14 volt systems.
> This allows one to maximize utilization of automotive
> hardware that for the most part, is equal to or better than
> much of what's 'certified'.
>
> If it were my airplane, I'd build a 14v machine and select
> hardware that runs in that environment. I've never understood
> the rational for building a 28v machine because "the radio(s)
> I want to put in the plane are only available in 28v".
>
> In the long run, the cost of ownership in time and maintenance
> dollars for a 14v electrical system will be much less than
> a 28v system.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: runaway, self regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> >
> > sure . . . this is where the b-lead contactor for ov disconnect
> > came into being . . .
>
>
>I agreed with the above "protection" until recently when I looked into the
>result of the failure mode after the "B" lead was disconnected as above.
>More analysis showed me that while protecting the aircraft electronics, the
>"B" lead contactor did nothing to protect the alternator from severe over
>heating and possible fire. Thus I have concluded that the above protection
>circuit is only a partial fix and that ANY alternator protection circuit for
>aircraft must also disconnect the field current.
The risk is to the field windings which get mucho volts applied
to them during the runaway event . . . which doesn't last long.
Perhaps 10 seconds before the field wires burn in two. Where
is the concentration of energy liberation adjacent to combustibles that
poses a risk of fire?
>Thus its necessary to either use an externally connected regulator or break
>the internal regulator to "B" lead connection. In some alternators this is a
>very simple cut and in others its not practical to do.
>
>The "B" lead contactor is opened due to an alternator overvoltage from some
>failure in the internal regulator. Its reasonable to assume this is from a
>total loss of control of field current and one likely result is full
>alternator output voltage is applied to the field thru the internal "B" lead
>connection.
>
>Alternators can be considered current sources and the output voltage will
>rise (with unregulated field current) to what ever level is needed to find a
>load that will sink the output current. Thus when the "B" lead contactor
>opens, the alternator voltage will rise as there is only the field load
>remaining (plus any internal shorted components).
>
>The rising output voltage will rise until the internal diodes start shorting
>out from overvoltage and this provides additional load (HEAT).
But consider that an alternator is incapable of delivering
any more current than it's magnetics will support . . . even
in a runaway condition, a 60A alternator is still a 60A alternator.
(our technique for running 14 volt alternators in a 28v system
using a special regulator might be called a "controlled runaway"
except that we go to pains to make sure the field is not over
driven . . . but it's still a 40/60A alternator).
So any degree of heating (I-squared*R) is relatively constant
irrespective of how much voltage the machine is generating during
an open circuit runaway. Shorting diodes is the best thing
you could hope for. A shorted diode is a cooler diode. Further,
as soon as you take out an upper/lower pair of diodes in the
full-wave array, output voltage goes to zero, field excitation
goes away and the critter stalls and shuts itself down. The
worst case is that the diodes hang in there (most are capable of a LOT
more that we might suspect) and 100+ volts makes raises
field current to 25 amps or so . . . that 22AWG copper field
winding won't stay in place very long. Exposed leadwires
would fuse before the field winding proper even has a chance
to warm up. It's all over in seconds.
>In aircraft there is no way to stop the turning of the alternator and my
>analysis suggests the overheated alternator can really get hot and start to
>affect nearby engine components.
>
>In conclusion I am not sure that protecting the avionics and letting the
>engine compartment overheat and possibly catching fire is worth the use of
>an internally regulated alternator and blissfully thinking that the OV
>controlled "B" lead contactor is sufficient protection.
>
>Short of a actual test, I remain unconvinced that a simple disconnect of the
>output ("B") lead of an 'out of control alternator' is safe for aircraft.
>Also testing would need to be performed on each brand etc of proposed
>alternator as internal failure modes are likely to differ due to internal
>construction. Would the load burn the windings open before the unit got hot
>enough to cause secondary damage??
>
>The additional cost for an externally regulated alternator is likely to be
>far less than 1% of the cost of the total aircraft it seems foolish to me to
>even consider using an internally regulated alternator.
We've see the test. There was at least one builder
who sent his alternator back for overhaul wherein he
failed to provide ANY kind of ov protection and assumed
that the alternator had a built in regulator. So through
a combination of mis-wiring and poor choice of switch
arrangements, he managed to get an alternator on line
without a battery or regulator. The alternator didn't
even smell really bad. The leadwire between slip ring
and field winding had opened like a fusible link. We
could probably have spliced it and the alternator would
have worked fine.
Disconnecting the B-lead insures the behavior we've
observed. Output voltage goes very high until the
relatively small field wire opens. If diodes do
short very quickly, the alternator may shut itself
down before the field wire has a chance to fuse.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
bob:
since the OVM-14's are relatively tiny and light units, could one put two of these
in and that way if one failed, the other would be there to work? My worry
with things like this is always what do I do if 6 years from now, this OVM-14
fails and B&C Electirical doesn't sell it anymore? Would a typical A&P mechanic
have a clue as to how to replace this particular module - if we were so fortunate
as to be able to figure out that it even failed?
What do you think - would this work? See Z-11 - the OVM-14 just goes from the
pin 4 wire to ground - so just add another in beside it going from pin #4 to ground.
thanks
---------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | Good deals on hardware from B&B Aircraft |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Guys,
Just a heads up for those wanting to save a few bucks on misc hardware and electrical
stuff. Give B&B Aircraft a call at (913) 884-5930. I just ordered a 5
A Klixon circuit breaker from them for $7.50 (surplus but new/unused condition).
Normally these are over $20 new. Also got some of the little camloc wheel
pant access doors (for filling tires) for $7.50 each, Aircraft Spruce charges
$10 for these last I checked. They have good prices on pop rivets, misc AN
hardware, etc. too....
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D fwf and wiring...
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Guys,
This is not to take business away from 'Lectric Bob, just if you are like me and
need a fuseblock something in between the 6/10/20 slots Bob carries I found
some at JCWhitney. In my case I wanted about a dozen slots but didn't want to
go all the way to 20 slots just for a few spares.
See the assortment at:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=5650&BQ=jcw2
6-slot $14.99
8-slot $16.99
10-slot $17.99
12-slot $17.99
14-slot $20.99
18-slot $22.99
Not sure if they are the same quality that Bob sells but they are rated at 25 amps
per circuit, and since I don't plan to put more than 8 amps max on any one
circuit that should be more than adequate for my purposes.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D firewall forward and wiring...
Message 14
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| Subject: | Electric RC Allen A/H Woes Part 2 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rob Miller <rmill2000@yahoo.com>
Hi Listers
You may remember back in December I was having trouble with my new, nearly
$2000 RC Allen artificial horizon. It failed less than an hour after
installation without warning. I sent it back to the factory under
warranty and it was returned one month later following "repairs."
I recently reinstalled the unit and it again failed within minutes. After
about ten minutes it started a gentle roll to the right then began
tumbling like a washing machine on the spin cycle.
Fearing that this item is going to get me killed, I'm removing it
permanently. Here's to Dynon, Blue Mountain or anyone else who can build
something that is reliable!!
Rob Miller
RV-8 N262RM "Bad Cat" 48 hours
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: RG battery location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Freddie Freeloader <lists@stevet.net>
Hello Howard,
Tuesday, March 11, 2003, 3:06:01 PM, you wrote:
-->> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Howard Ogle <pub@macrotechcorp.com>
HO> Bob,
HO> What are your thoughts with placing the battery(s) inside the cockpit behind
the
HO> instrument panel?
HO> I'm building an all electric Glasair III with dual alternators, dual batteries,
HO> electronic ignition, etc.
HO> >snip<
Howard, I, too, am building a Glasair with all electric panel. I was
wondering if you can share your secret for easier access to the
behind-panel area. I tried your private address and it bounced.
Please contact me off-list at the address below.
--
Best regards,
Freddie mailto:lists@stevet.net
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Electric RC Allen A/H Woes Part 2 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Rourke <jrourke@allied-computer.com>
did they expalin what failed the first time?
-John R.
Rob Miller wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rob Miller <rmill2000@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi Listers
>
> You may remember back in December I was having trouble with my new, nearly
> $2000 RC Allen artificial horizon. It failed less than an hour after
> installation without warning. I sent it back to the factory under
> warranty and it was returned one month later following "repairs."
>
> I recently reinstalled the unit and it again failed within minutes. After
> about ten minutes it started a gentle roll to the right then began
> tumbling like a washing machine on the spin cycle.
>
> Fearing that this item is going to get me killed, I'm removing it
> permanently. Here's to Dynon, Blue Mountain or anyone else who can build
> something that is reliable!!
>
> Rob Miller
>
> RV-8 N262RM "Bad Cat" 48 hours
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Double OVM-14's |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Julia,
If the electrical system is well documented, and the docs are made
available to your mechanic he should have no trouble figuring out
how things are put together. At least any mechanic that I would
allow to work on my plane would.
Have you read the docs about the OVM? Bob has specified an easy,
yearly check of the OVM device, as well as documents for how to
build a new one of your own. If you are concerned about B&C not
having any in the future, it would probably be smart to include the
design for this simple device in your aircraft docs. Then if after testing
it, you find it broken, you or your mechanic might be able to build
another. The worst case scenario is that you can just remove it and
go back to the level of OV protection that lots of cars and airplanes
already have (none).
> > since the OVM-14's are relatively tiny and light units, could one put
> two of these in and that way if one failed, the other would be there to
> work? My worry with things like this is always what do I do if 6 years
> from now, this OVM-14 fails and B&C Electirical doesn't sell it anymore?
> Would a typical A&P mechanic have a clue as to how to replace this
> particular module - if we were so fortunate as to be able to figure out
> that it even failed?
>
I believe what you have suggested would work, but this is similar to fault
scenarios already discussed. The chances that the both the OVM would fail
AND the alt/reg system would runaway on the same flight are very low.
Similarly,
it has already been discussed that occassionally the OVM's fail by shorting
(which disables your charging system..). Having 2 of the devices in parallel
increases this risk.
> What do you think - would this work? See Z-11 - the OVM-14 just goes
> from the pin 4 wire to ground - so just add another in beside it going
> from pin #4 to ground.
>
> thanks
>
>
Regards,
Matt-
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neil McLeod" <bedrock@theriver.com>
www.terminaltown.com has 'em even a little cheaper.
Neil McLeod
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
czechsix@juno.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuseblocks
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Guys,
This is not to take business away from 'Lectric Bob, just if you are
like me and need a fuseblock something in between the 6/10/20 slots Bob
carries I found some at JCWhitney. In my case I wanted about a dozen
slots but didn't want to go all the way to 20 slots just for a few
spares.
See the assortment at:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=5650&BQ=jcw2
6-slot $14.99
8-slot $16.99
10-slot $17.99
12-slot $17.99
14-slot $20.99
18-slot $22.99
Not sure if they are the same quality that Bob sells but they are rated
at 25 amps per circuit, and since I don't plan to put more than 8 amps
max on any one circuit that should be more than adequate for my
purposes.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D firewall forward and wiring...
Message 19
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
On a side note.
Some time in the near future the automotive industry is looking into
switching to a 42 volt system...
Dave
RV-6
>Time: 11:53:08 PM PST US
>From: "Tom Schiff" <tomschiff@attbi.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: 12 vs 28 volts
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Schiff"
<tomschiff@attbi.com>
>I am beginning to scrounge "Stuff" for my GlaStar that should be
>finished in the fall of 2004. Just wondered if most homebuilts are 12
>volt. I keep hearing about automotive alternators and I assume that
they
>are 12 volt or can they be regulated out to 28 volt.
>Can most avionics (not the newest King KX155's which are 28 volt only)
>be had in 12 volt versions?
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Electric RC Allen A/H Woes Part 2 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Peter Laurence <dr.laurence@mbdi.org>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Miller" <rmill2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric RC Allen A/H Woes Part 2
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rob Miller <rmill2000@yahoo.com>
>
Rob,
Let the list know how RC Allen handles the problem.
Thanks
Peter Laurence
> Hi Listers
>
> You may remember back in December I was having trouble with my new, nearly
> $2000 RC Allen artificial horizon. It failed less than an hour after
> installation without warning. I sent it back to the factory under
> warranty and it was returned one month later following "repairs."
>
> I recently reinstalled the unit and it again failed within minutes. After
> about ten minutes it started a gentle roll to the right then began
> tumbling like a washing machine on the spin cycle.
>
> Fearing that this item is going to get me killed, I'm removing it
> permanently. Here's to Dynon, Blue Mountain or anyone else who can build
> something that is reliable!!
>
> Rob Miller
>
> RV-8 N262RM "Bad Cat" 48 hours
>
>
Message 21
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
I bought a 6 and a 10 slot version of these blocks from Del City which
can be accessed through the shopping.yahoo page. I think the price
was a little lower there. I am happy with the quality and design, but I
don't think they are as robust as the ones that Bob sells.
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
>
> Guys,
>
> This is not to take business away from 'Lectric Bob, just if you are
> like me and need a fuseblock something in between the 6/10/20 slots Bob
> carries I found some at JCWhitney. In my case I wanted about a dozen
> slots but didn't want to go all the way to 20 slots just for a few
> spares.
>
> See the assortment at:
>
> http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=5650&BQ=jcw2
>
> 6-slot $14.99
> 8-slot $16.99
> 10-slot $17.99
> 12-slot $17.99
> 14-slot $20.99
> 18-slot $22.99
>
> Not sure if they are the same quality that Bob sells but they are rated
> at 25 amps per circuit, and since I don't plan to put more than 8 amps
> max on any one circuit that should be more than adequate for my
> purposes.
>
> --Mark Navratil
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> RV-8A N2D firewall forward and wiring...
Message 22
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
Has anyone seen or used a (inexpensive) data logger that would record
A.S., RoC, RPM and M.P.?
I'm doing some flight testing and it sure would come in handy.
I've used one in a Madera R/C racer years ago, but I don't think it
would
handle enough inputs.
Thanks
Dave RV-6
The need for (more) speed---->
Message 23
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
How about a camcorder (or two)?
Regards,
Matt Prather
N34RD
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe"
> <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
>
> Has anyone seen or used a (inexpensive) data logger that would record
> A.S., RoC, RPM and M.P.?
>
> I'm doing some flight testing and it sure would come in handy.
>
> I've used one in a Madera R/C racer years ago, but I don't think it
> would
> handle enough inputs.
>
> Thanks
> Dave RV-6
> The need for (more) speed---->
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: 12 vs 28 volts |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:12 PM 3/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe"
><David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
>
>On a side note.
>
>Some time in the near future the automotive industry is looking into
>switching to a 42 volt system...
yup, that's been discussed in various aviation circles including
some focused on OBAM aircraft. Of course, spares for the last
production 14v vehicles will be in plentiful supply for some
time after the onset of 42v systems . . . just how that will
shake out in our world isn't clear. Switching becomes more
difficult, but solid state switches will take care of it,
alternators are not likely to be belt driven accessories
so automotive takeoffs will be difficult to bolt to your
Lyc . . . but then, perhaps the whole engine out of a
2010 Chevy will be the OBAM power plant of choice.
For the moment, I'm content to joust with the 14v
dragons and see how it works out. Should be
exciting and challenging.
Bob . . .
Message 25
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:43 PM 3/12/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
>
>Guys,
>
>This is not to take business away from 'Lectric Bob, just if you are like
>me and need a fuseblock something in between the 6/10/20 slots Bob carries
>I found some at JCWhitney. In my case I wanted about a dozen slots but
>didn't want to go all the way to 20 slots just for a few spares.
>
>See the assortment at:
>
>http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=5650&BQ=jcw2
>
>6-slot $14.99
>8-slot $16.99
>10-slot $17.99
>12-slot $17.99
>14-slot $20.99
>18-slot $22.99
>
>Not sure if they are the same quality that Bob sells but they are rated at
>25 amps per circuit, and since I don't plan to put more than 8 amps max on
>any one circuit that should be more than adequate for my purposes.
I don't sell them any more, B&C does. But I've ordered
one to see how it's put together and will report findings
here. BTW, they have a standard minimum shipping charge of
nearly $10 . . . so you don't want to order just one little
thing . . .
Bob . . .
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Double OVM-14's |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:17 AM 3/12/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
>
>
>bob:
>
>since the OVM-14's are relatively tiny and light units, could one put two
>of these in and that way if one failed, the other would be there to
>work? My worry with things like this is always what do I do if 6 years
>from now, this OVM-14 fails and B&C Electirical doesn't sell it
>anymore? Would a typical A&P mechanic have a clue as to how to replace
>this particular module - if we were so fortunate as to be able to figure
>out that it even failed?
They should be tested every annual like every other OV protection
product on any airplane. It's easy to do. Instructions for doing
so should have come with it. As an all solid-state
device, probability of decades of trouble-free service is quite
good. There will always be a direct replacement for this device
from either B&C, AeroElectric Connection, and perhaps others . . .
Documentation on how to build your own is downloadable from
my website. If push came to shove, you can build one. The parts
are not critical. This circuit has been built by a number
of builders with success.
If the device does fail to function, it can be repaired. The
heat shrink can be cut off for troubleshooting.
>What do you think - would this work? See Z-11 - the OVM-14 just goes from
>the pin 4 wire to ground - so just add another in beside it going from pin
>#4 to ground.
I think this would be a waste of money.
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: defending the "familiy jewels" . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
do not archive
> electromagnetic fields. I reference again the Swedish study
> that identified risk in many household items and even the
> fields around the flourescent lights we all work under.
Follow the money on these - many so called "studies" are simply grants
some politician gives to get the result his agenda needs. It takes a
ton of time to follow the money trail, but it would no doubt be
interesting. I haven't seen the above referenced study, but skepticism
has served me quite well on these things.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 265 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
Message 28
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:21 PM 3/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe"
><David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
>
>Has anyone seen or used a (inexpensive) data logger that would record
>A.S., RoC, RPM and M.P.?
>
>I'm doing some flight testing and it sure would come in handy.
The expensive part are sensors for these parameters. I use
a lot of products from these guys:
http://www.weedtech.com/
They're cheap, reasonably fast and stone simple to set up
and use. If you need more speed and have a USB port
to talk to it, you can use:
http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u12.html
Again, cheap and easy to use . . . grab your wallet with
both hands when you price the sensors, especially
the low delta-pressure devices. I've got plans for
a super sensitive, temperature compensated pressure
transducer that gives me +/- 20 foot accuracy to
60,000 feet and better than 1% accuracy for pitot
pressures to 300 kts. We derive ROC from altitude
data. The transducers have a relatively low bill of
materials cost . . . under $100 . . . but you need
some pretty good lab equipment to calibrate them.
I have access to such things at RAC . . . kind of
hard to come by out in the wild. Off the shelf
sensors with this capability will run $1000 to $2500
each.
Bob . . .
Message 29
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N566u@aol.com
In a message dated 3/12/2003 4:22:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
> >Not sure if they are the same quality that Bob sells but they are rated at
> >25 amps per circuit, and since I don't plan to put more than 8 amps max on
>
> >any one circuit that should be more than adequate for my purposes.
>
> I don't sell them any more, B&C does. But I've ordered
> one to see how it's put together and will report findings
> here. BTW, they have a standard minimum shipping charge of
> nearly $10 . . . so you don't want to order just one little
> thing . . .
>
Just my two cents worth. I have been reading this list for many months,
gathering much needed information on how to properly construct the electrical
system on my RV-8A. I also have the "connection" and read it every time I
have a question. As for me, I purchase All I can from your web site as a way
of supporting what you do and would urge everyone else to do likewise!
Ron Smith
N566U@aol.com
Message 30
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "C J Heitman" <cjh@execpc.com>
Even cheaper here: http://pegasusautoracing.com and exact same Bussman parts
as B&C (rated 30 amps per position) and just pay actual UPS charge (no
handling fee added).
4402-06 (6 position) $9.99
4402-10 (10 position) $11.99
4402-20 (20 position) $17.99
Page 49 of on-line catalog.
Chris Heitman
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
http://my.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
Original Message:
------------------
Guys,
This is not to take business away from 'Lectric Bob, just if you are like me
and need a fuseblock something in between the 6/10/20 slots Bob carries I
found some at JCWhitney. In my case I wanted about a dozen slots but didn't
want to go all the way to 20 slots just for a few spares.
See the assortment at:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=5650&BQ=jcw2
6-slot $14.99
8-slot $16.99
10-slot $17.99
12-slot $17.99
14-slot $20.99
18-slot $22.99
Not sure if they are the same quality that Bob sells but they are rated at
25 amps per circuit, and since I don't plan to put more than 8 amps max on
any one circuit that should be more than adequate for my purposes.
--Mark Navratil
---
Message 31
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| Subject: | multi-wire cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
Hey guys,
Does anybody make a multi-wire 24 gauge cable to hook up autopilot
servos and such? It'd be nice to find something that's insulated with
tefzel and color coded. The Ray Allen wire is 26 gauge and really
expensive and is only in 20' lengths. It is nice and skinny, though.
Thanks,
Ed Holyoke
RV-6 N86ED (reserved)
Message 32
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:08 PM 3/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N566u@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 3/12/2003 4:22:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
>bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
>
> > >Not sure if they are the same quality that Bob sells but they are
> rated at
> > >25 amps per circuit, and since I don't plan to put more than 8 amps
> max on
> >
> > >any one circuit that should be more than adequate for my purposes.
> >
> > I don't sell them any more, B&C does. But I've ordered
> > one to see how it's put together and will report findings
> > here. BTW, they have a standard minimum shipping charge of
> > nearly $10 . . . so you don't want to order just one little
> > thing . . .
> >
>
>Just my two cents worth. I have been reading this list for many months,
>gathering much needed information on how to properly construct the electrical
>system on my RV-8A. I also have the "connection" and read it every time I
>have a question. As for me, I purchase All I can from your web site as a way
>of supporting what you do and would urge everyone else to do likewise!
I appreciate that. I've spent $thousands$ for ads and promotional
activities over the years that produced not a single phone call
much less a sale. I've decided that my "advertising budget" is better
spent as time-on-the-lists as opposed to time-to-earn-dollars
expended on activities that don't add value.
Having said that, I don't expect that anyone should feel
obligated to patronize my products that are not good
value when compared to the products of others. The reason that
we can buy $69 VCRs and $600 super byte-thrashers is because
we've enjoyed a competitive market place where those who best
supply consumer needs get the privilege of servicing those
needs. Learn to play in the sand box or go play somewhere
else.
That's just one of the reasons why I got out of the parts business
two years ago. I want to focus on products that are uniquely
my own -AND- have the control to make them best serve
consumer needs. There are some new things coming over
the hill. Watch this space. In the mean time, let's
the best we can to build the greatest possible value
into our airplanes . . . that must include alternative
sources for useful parts and products.
Bob . . .
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: multi-wire cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:25 PM 3/12/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
>
>Hey guys,
>
>Does anybody make a multi-wire 24 gauge cable to hook up autopilot
>servos and such? It'd be nice to find something that's insulated with
>tefzel and color coded. The Ray Allen wire is 26 gauge and really
>expensive and is only in 20' lengths. It is nice and skinny, though.
>
>Thanks,
How many wires total do you need? The shielded triple
from B&C would give you 6 wires in only two runs.
Bob . . .
Message 34
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "MARK H DELANO" <delano60@email.msn.com>
I have tried all your suggestions to eliminate the RFI produced by this Turn
& Bank indicator. The iron wrap helped quite a bit but did not eliminate
the noise buy itself, however when I would move my hand within 5 or 6 in. of
the gyro, but not touching it, the RFI would almost completely disappear.
Since I will operate in Class B airspace the com radio is an absolute
requirement, so this Chinese knock off is going back to Spruce and a high
quality unit will replace it.
Thanks for the help.
Mark Delano
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RFI
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 03:10 PM 3/9/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "MARK H DELANO"
> ><delano60@email.msn.com>
> >
> >Last week I asked a Question about a Turn & Bank that sounded like a
> >vacuum cleaner when the com was turned on. The offending imported non
> >TSOd instrument is a Falcon Gage P/N TC02E-3-1. You Provided a link to
the
> >Radio Shack 270-030 filter which I installed as the wire diagram
> >instructed with little reduction in the RF output. The filter assembly
> >came with a 220 uF cap and your drawing calls for a 10uF. will this
> >matter? Any other suggestion to kill the RF interference before I return
> >the gage to Spruce.
>
> Try the heavier cap. . . also try wrapping
> a sleeve of thin sheet steel (flashing metal
> from lumber yard works good) around the
> body of the instrument. The metal is pretty
> thin so I usually use three layers. This can
> be held in place with long tye wraps or with
> a couple of string ties. This will attenuate
> strong magnetic radiation common to many of these
> instruments. You may also see some benefit for
> making an electrical connection between the
> metal shield and the ground power wire coming
> into the back of the instrument.
>
> Will be interested to see what, if any effects
> these actions have.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | multi-wire cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
Hi Bob,
How thick is the shielded trio?
Ed Holyoke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls,
> III
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:39 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: multi-wire cable
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 07:25 PM 3/12/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ed Holyoke
> <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
> >
> >Hey guys,
> >
> >Does anybody make a multi-wire 24 gauge cable to hook up autopilot
> >servos and such? It'd be nice to find something that's insulated with
> >tefzel and color coded. The Ray Allen wire is 26 gauge and really
> >expensive and is only in 20' lengths. It is nice and skinny, though.
> >
> >Thanks,
>
> How many wires total do you need? The shielded triple
> from B&C would give you 6 wires in only two runs.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 36
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
I really have to agree with you on that one, Ron. Maybe RV-8A builders
think alike. I remember when I started building about five years ago, I
found that I could buy metal snips a lot cheaper than Avery sold them, but
then after I had experienced the outstanding service from Avery, I decided I
wanted to do business with them, and if that cost a bit more for a tool I
might find once in awhile at Home Depot, it was still money very well spent.
I just bought an engine from Aerosport Power, a Superior XP-IO-360 with
Airflow Performance fuel injection and Lightspeed electronic ignition on one
side. I was reading through the Airflow Performance manual and decided I
should order the optional purge valve and install it, but when I looked at
the engine, there it was, already installed. And that oil line I was
wondering about ordering for the constant speed control unit to the prop was
all hooked up and fire sleeved too. It's really great to do business with
people who are more interested in solving your problem than getting your
money. Bob takes that concept to a new level, and besides that, he is a
true gentleman. I don't know where he finds the time and the energy to
answer our questions and lead us through this learning process, but I'm
damned glad he does.
Terry
RV-8A
Seattle
>
Just my two cents worth. I have been reading this list for many months,
gathering much needed information on how to properly construct the
electrical
system on my RV-8A. I also have the "connection" and read it every time I
have a question. As for me, I purchase All I can from your web site as a way
of supporting what you do and would urge everyone else to do likewise!
Ron Smith
N566U@aol.com
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