Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:52 AM - Re: intercom question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:01 AM - Alternator wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:17 AM - Re: 10416 tracy (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:22 AM - D-sub pins substitution? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:29 AM - Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 07:39 AM - Re: Crossover Warning Light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:56 AM - Re: OV Protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 08:04 AM - Re: Radio Recommendations (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:07 AM - Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise (Dennis O'Connor)
10. 08:23 AM - Re:intercom question (MikeM)
11. 08:37 AM - Re: Altitude control (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: RG battery mounting positions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 08:40 AM - Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise (Matt Prather)
14. 08:41 AM - Figure Z-14 (Scott Bilinski)
15. 08:42 AM - Re: Firewall penetraton for wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 08:46 AM - Re: Firewall penetraton for wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 09:11 AM - Re: runaway, self regulated alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 09:15 AM - Re: Figure Z-14 (Julia)
19. 09:20 AM - Re: 10415 Ferris (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 09:32 AM - Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise (John Rourke)
21. 11:44 AM - Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise (Ed Holyoke)
22. 01:12 PM - Re: Re:intercom question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 02:17 PM - Automation of Alternator Disconnect system (Julia)
24. 02:22 PM - Electrical Noise in aircraft wiring (MikeM)
25. 07:10 PM - Too close to my compass? (Sam Hoskins)
26. 07:37 PM - Re: Firewall penetraton for wires (Ron Triano)
27. 07:37 PM - Re: Automation of Alternator Disconnect system (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 07:40 PM - Re: Figure Z-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
29. 07:45 PM - Re: Turn coordinator noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
30. 07:53 PM - Contactor Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
31. 08:33 PM - Re: exploding Jet-A (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
32. 08:40 PM - Re: Grounding (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
33. 08:46 PM - Re: Electrical Noise in aircraft wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
34. 08:49 PM - Re: Too close to my compass? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
35. 09:28 PM - Re: Firewall penetraton for wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: intercom question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:43 PM 3/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Bourget"
><falconaviation@rogers.com>
>
>Hi all,,, new to the list putting together a Sal 2.3rd mustang.
>
>ready to do wiring now and I have a question.
>
>If I use the Icom 200, and I wish to also have a CD player do I need to
>install an intercom?
Mike, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner on your direct
query but Dee and I were out of town since last Friday and
where we were going, there wasn't any place to plug a computer
into the wall . . .
Does the A200 have a true intercom function built in?
It's not apparent from the front panel controls in spite
of the fact that some of the sales literature I've seen
on the net speaks about "intercom capabilities" . . .
I suspect this simply means that its headphone output
signals are not incompatible with intercom systems.
You'll need some form of intercom that features additional
audio inputs from other sources like nav receiver, marker beacon,
alert tones, etc. in addition to stereo outputs from your
music system. This also means that you need to acquire
headsets wired for stereo music . . . most are not.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Alternator wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I have purchased your book along with S-704-1 alternator OV relay and the
>crowbar overvoltage module. I am building a Skystar Classic IV with a Rotax
>912 engine so I am using your diagram Z-15 as a guide. My question is this:
Z15??? or Z16 . . .?
>On your diagram you have the alternator master circuit wired through the
>main power bus and not the essential bus. It seems to me that with this
>setup that a failure of the master contactor would result in a shutdown of
>the alternator. Is this correct and if so is there any reason not to
>attach the
>alternator master circuit to the essential bus?
The e-bus is generally not needed unless the alternator
has failed in which case it allows you to use battery
reserves without the burden of the master relay. Depending
on how the regulator is configured, the PM alternator
on the Rotax may still deliver useful power to the
bus with the battery master relay open so battery master
relay operation is not necessarily a requirement for
alternator operation . . .
Even if it is, what kind of flight operations do
you anticipate wherein lose of both battery contactor
-AND- alternator presents any kind of a tense
scenario?
Bob . . .
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>Amp meter fluctuation and gear green lights go from bright to dim at low
>rpms less that 1000 rpms. Overhauled alternator 60amps with new
>belt. Problem was before and after alternator/belt exchange. A related
>problem with radio transmission. Low engine rpm transmission is load and
>clear. Cruise rpm transmission is not clean but scratchy. Help
>Aircraft PA28R-200 1970
>John
This problem needs to be trouble shot
by someone who understands how the system works
and how it behaves when the different components
are not working. Too many mechanics troubleshoot
by substitution . . . keep replacing things
starting with their "best guess" until the problem
goes away. The symptoms you cite are suggestive
of a regulator problem brought on my increased
resistance of wiring and components between
the regulator and the bus . . . easy to
trouble shoot by someone who understands
what he is doing . . . but their may be other
deficiencies compounding the problem. It's
not a terribly difficult thing to do but it's
more than I can lead you through in a quick
e-mail response. Do you have a mechanic helping
you with this?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
Message 4
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| Subject: | D-sub pins substitution? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>Bob,
>
>Just wanted to thank you for providing all these great resources. I
>purchased the AEC book awhile back and it has been a great reference and
>educational while building.
I'm pleased that you find the investment useful . . .
>With the praise out of the way (smile). If you have time for a question
>I'd be grateful (and will pay as well - just tell me where to send the check).
>
>Here goes - I just purchased an UPS/Apollo GX65 COM/GPS unit and it came
>with solid barrel connector pins for the DBxx connectors. Since these
>require yet another tool that I'll probably never use again I was
>wondering your thoughts of the solid pins versus the ones you describe in
>your article at
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/matenlok/matenlok.html? Since I have
>some of the open type pins from left over hobby projects and the crimper
>for them as well, it would be really easy to use them. However, if it's
>going to come back and bit me, I'll just spend another $90 and buy the
>'damn solid pin MS22520 based crimper'.
How about a $44 tool at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#rct-3
If it were my airplane, I only use machined pins
in the d-sub connectors.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:37 PM 3/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finnlassen@netzero.net>
>
>Ok, I see.
>
>Could have been spectacular though: full battery voltage across a switch
>no longer fully submerged in oil. Wonder if the flash would have been
>enough to ignite the oil?
If it were a little bit of oil in a large volume
of air, perhaps. You can't ignite a fuel that
doesn't also have the right ratio of oxygen to
go along with the ignition event. That's what's
so bogus about the official story of root-cause
for TWA800 . . .
If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
anytime because the chemical reaction provides
its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
cousins make such lousy bombs.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Crossover Warning Light |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:52 AM 3/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 3/17/2003 9:24:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, jpack@igs3.com
>writes:
>
> > I would like to put a light on the panel that indicates that the Crossover
> > Contactor is on (Dual bat, Dual Alt system). Where should I take the lead
> > for the light?
> >
> > - Jim
Figure Z-14 shows just such a light adjacent to the cross-feed contactor
control switch.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: OV Protection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:19 PM 3/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinnemaha" <Tinnemaha@charter.net>
>
>I'm in the (very frustrating) process of designing an electrical system
>for my first experimental (Kitfox w/ Lyc O-235):
>
>I'm confused about over voltage protection devices(for alternators):
>
> I understand that their basic purpose is to protect the electrical
> system if the voltage output gets too high, but isn't that the function
> of any other type of cirquit protection device (fuses, breakers, fusible
> links)?
> I'm planning on installing a 35 amp fusible link between the alternator
> and the main bus
Fusible link? . . . or ANL series current limiter? What size
alternator are you using? . . . which power distribution diagram
are you basing your system on?
> Does that only protect against over-amperage? I saw the 'crow-bar'
> type of OV protection devices from B&C on the web site - does that get
> installed between the alternator and the fusible link?
. . . proper application of the OVM-14 crowbar ov module
is described in every appendix Z power distribution diagram where
applicable.
>Any comments or clarifications would be helpful
The first seven paragraphs of chapter 6 speak to what
constitutes "over voltage", where it comes from and
how and why it needs to be dealt with in a very specific
manner . . .
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Radio Recommendations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:56 AM 3/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinnemaha" <Tinnemaha@charter.net>
>
>Hello List,
>
>Thank You (especially Bob Nuckolls) for the responses to my question about
>de-rating mini switches a while back......the answers made great sense and
>convinced me what a great resource this list is. I will be contributing a
>touch of $ to the list soon.
>
>I am in the process of re-designing the panel for my Kitfox....basically
>going to use fuses instead of breakers and changing from a panel mounted
>GPS/Com to a comm & a hand held GPS (mainly for economic reasons). Could
>You please recommend the Comm & GPS that will give me the best value as
>well as the best place to get them? I'm assuming a Terra Comm & Garmin
>GPS but recommendations from experienced people will be very helpful.
I have been flying exclusively with $100 gps receivers from WalMart now
for about 5 years (Garmin GPS310 and close cousins). They do everything
I need to do and for a very attractive price. Until this past weekend,
I was under the impression that they had problems getting locked onto
satellites if you were (1) a long way and/or long time from where the
receiver was turned off or (2) moving.
Just as an experiment, I held my GPS310 up to the cabin window on
an MD80 on way to Seattle last week. The receiver had been turned
off weeks ago and 600 miles away. It took the radio less than a
minute to figure out where we were (over southern Idaho), how
fast we were going (526 mph) and how high we were (31,250').
Truly amazing little machines. Hard to find more bang for the
buck. This experiment showed that one doesn't have to
have the flight-bag back-up receiver up and running for
the duration of the trip.
Not planning to replace my stereo 310's any time soon.
Will give another one away at my upcoming weekend seminar
in Ft. Worth.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor@chartermi.net>
And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in front
of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
(I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 06:37 PM 3/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Finn Lassen
<finnlassen@netzero.net>
> >
> >Ok, I see.
> >
> >Could have been spectacular though: full battery voltage across a switch
> >no longer fully submerged in oil. Wonder if the flash would have been
> >enough to ignite the oil?
>
> If it were a little bit of oil in a large volume
> of air, perhaps. You can't ignite a fuel that
> doesn't also have the right ratio of oxygen to
> go along with the ignition event. That's what's
> so bogus about the official story of root-cause
> for TWA800 . . .
>
> If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
> products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
> the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
> your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
> is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
> is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
> anytime because the chemical reaction provides
> its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
> It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
> cousins make such lousy bombs.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re:intercom question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeM <mladejovsky@ced.utah.edu>
From: "Mike Bourget" <falconaviation@rogers.com>
>If I use the Icom 200, and I wish to also have a CD player do I
>need to install an intercom?
Hi Mike:
I have tried to drive stereo aviation headsets (LightSpeeds)
from a Sony Discman battery-powered CD player without extra
amplification, and it almost works, but not quite.
The problem is that the lightweight headphones supplied with the
Sony are a much lower impedance (~30 Ohms per ear) than aircraft
headsets (~150 Ohms per ear). Since the Sony is powered with
just two 1.5V alkaline cells, it is only capable of producing
about 2.8V peak to peak of audio signal across 30 Ohms, or open
circuit.
Now 2.8Vp-p is 1Vrms, meaning that the Sony produces P=E
2/R or
(1x1)/30 =33mw per ear. If you substitute a 150 Ohm headset, the
voltage out of the Sony stays the same, but the power drops to
(1x1)/150 = 7mw. This is just not enough to overcom the ambient
noise in the cockpit. The level is just too low, even with the
volume control on the headsets, and the Sony running wide open.
To drive aviation headsets with the Sony, you need a stereo
amplifier which is capable of delivering about 30mw to 150 Ohms.
By transposing the above equation, we find that it takes
E=sqrt(R*P) or sqrt(0.03*150) = 2.1 Vrms, which is 6Vp-p, which
means you need a voltage gain of about 3.
There are several ways to get the required voltage gain. Use two
transformers, roll your own stereo amp, buy a Muse from PS
Engineering (http://www.ps-engineering.com),
buy a stereo intercom which contains such an amplifier, or buy
an expensive panel-mounted stereo audio switching panel.
The problem with audio transformers is availability and bulk.
You would need 30Ohm to 150Ohm matching transformer with freq
response from 30 Hz to >10000 Hz. These are hard to find.
Ones that have good low freq respnse would be fairly big, too.
Being cheap, I built a little stereo amp using a single IC audio
amp chip. It has a freq response which is flat from 10Hz to
10KHz. It has a fixed gain of 3. It will drive four stereo
headsets simultaneouly. The audio quality with the
noise-cancelling LightSpeed headsets is HiFi. It automatically
mutes the music during intercom or ATC radio activity.
I haven't written this up in the form of an article for
publication, but might be persuaded to do so...
Mike Mladejovsky
Skylane '1MM
Pacer '00Z
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Altitude control |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:53 AM 3/15/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com>
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
> >
> ><<> I've got plans for
> >> a super sensitive, temperature compensated pressure
> >> transducer that gives me +/- 20 foot accuracy to
> >> 60,000 feet and better than 1% accuracy for pitot
> >> pressures to 300 kts.
> >
> >Does this mean we will be seeing a reasonably accurate, affordable altitude
> >control
> >device in
> >the near future?>>
> >
> >Pardon me if I don't hold my breath for this one. 20 feet of accuracy at
> >60,000 equates to a maximum error of .00098 psi, or 0.007% of full scale, an
> >accuracy not attainable by even laboratory grade sensors. At sea level 20
> >feet equates to 0.01 psi or 0.07% of full scale, within reach of high-end
> >pressure sensors, but only over a very limited temperature range.
<snip>
I did misquote the spec . . . (which is inexcusable 'cause
I wrote it about 8 years ago). Accuracy at altitudes
below 20,000 feet was spec'd at 50 feet but
the little box easily holds +/- 20 feet for all effects
combined. We spec'd accuracy to degrade linearly above
20,000 feet to +/- 1000 feet at 60K . . . the supplier
came in at under 300 feet.
This isn't a laboratory grade sensor . . . in fact, it's
a jelly-bean part that's individually characterized for
production variations and temperature effects as part of
the normal environmental screening processes. These sensors
are not particularly accurate nor are they stable with
temperature but they turned out to be quite repeatable.
By driving them with a precision constant current source
and measuring the voltage drop across the bridge excitation
terminals, the sensor becomes its own temperature monitor.
Pressure data is, of course, taken off the bridge taps
on either side.
For altitude control, one can get by with
holding current pressure under prevailing conditions
with sufficient resolution to meet requirements
of the servo model. This used to be done by simply
closing off the vent to an aneroid capsule with
a valve and then let the capsule drive an lvdt to
characterize departures from the pressure captured
within the aneroid. That was the technique of
choice in 1965 (Cessna Nav-o-Matic 400). Nowadays,
one could use a full range absolute sensor with
lots of gain (al-la the techniques described above)
or a low range differential sensor and capture
valve like the ol' Nav-o-Matics. In either case,
one could ignore temperature and calibration
issues since you're only interested in the short
term stability under present conditions. That's
what the ez-trim system does as I recall.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: RE: RG battery mounting positions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:07 PM 3/14/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
>
>Hello Gary,
>
>Seek out the Concord Battery site for one. They sell Certified RG sealed
>lead acid batteries for Certified aircraft and have done so for some number
>of years now.
>
>Jim in Kelowna
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <Aucountry@aol.com>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: RG battery mounting positions
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
> >
> > Anyone on this list ever get an RG battery approved in a cerified plane?
> > Especially now with the way the FAA is (more) messed up?
> >
> > Gary
B&C has STC's to put several of their battery offerings
into certified ships as well.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
> If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
> products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
> the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
> your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
> is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
> is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
> anytime because the chemical reaction provides
> its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
> It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
> cousins make such lousy bombs.
>
> Bob . . .
That's also why its such a challenge to make a fuel efficient carbuerator/
fuel injection system. And why it takes >17kV to make it light, even with
the correct mixture.
An interesting observation about twa800.
Matt-
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I see everyone referencing Z-this and Z-that.......This is in reference to?
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetraton for wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:57 PM 3/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 3/14/2003 12:58:18 PM Mountain Standard Time,
>Hebeard2@aol.com writes:
>
>
> >
> >
> > First of all I couldn't find any stainless steel towel bars, but with the
> > help of a sales person I found stainless steel Grab Bars. I couldn't find
> > any
> > with the stock number given, but they did have quite a selection. Most
> were
> >
> > 1.5" in diameter rather than 1.25". The various stock numbers referred to
> > varying finishes available to facilitate good friction when grasping.
> There
> >
> > were some 1.25" diameter in 24" length which cost $33.00. Searching for a
> > shorter length, I found an 18" length in 1.5" diameter for $19.96 (Stock #
> > 6318, Satin Stainless Steel). Since length means nothing for our purposes,
> > and I am cheap, this is the one I bought. I figure the firestop to plug
> the
> >
> > extra .25" wouldn't cost $13.00. Don't get too hung up on stock numbers,
> > look
> > at the product under Grab Bars.
You don't need to use fire-stop putty to fill the excess volume
of the larger tubes. Study the pictures posted at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html
The only place you need any sealing is under the flange
were it bolts to the firewall.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Firewall penetraton for wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:24 PM 3/14/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Triano" <rondefly@pacbell.net>
>
>Hi Harvey, since I was the one with the stainless towel/ grab bar
>suggestion, I am supprised you found a salesman in Home depot that knew
>what supplies were in their department. If you happen to be a capable
>stainless welder you could just use a piece of tubing with a flange
>welded to the end. I am squishing mine with the flange on the firewall
>side with fire caulking then over filling the interior of the tube and
>wire with the same caulking. The caulking is readilly available in
>varying temp's.
Do I infer that you're not using fire-sleeve with
this installation?
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: runaway, self regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:52 AM 3/14/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger"
><paulm@tenforward.com>
>
>Bob
>
>Thanks for the extended reply.
>
>However its hard to ignore the melted alternator I had in my hands years
>ago. That convinced me that an internal failure could keep the voltage low
>enough so the shorted current had time to heat things up and one could not
>count on the field acting as a fuse. The theory was a diode failure started
>things.
>Regardless of our differences I personally would never consider a regulator
>that could not be controlled fully. Thus no internal regulator with
>connections to the "B" lead. Its just not worth the small cost savings.
I'm trying to understand the physics supporting your
concerns. It is sufficient to "agree to disagree"
in politics but we're talking about differing opinions
where you suggest my recommendations offer some potential
for fire hazard. My premise is that the action of
disconnecting a failed alternator from the bus by
means of b-lead disconnect contactor allows the
alternator output voltage to rise without restraint
offered by any loads or battery. Under these conditions,
outputs of over 100 volts are easily realized and the
resulting current in the field winding will fuse it
in seconds.
I've seen LOTS of melted alternators also . . . WITH and
WITH0UT external regulators. In every case, destruction
of the alternator proceeded within constraints offered
by system loads and vehicle's battery. The whole idea
of the b-lead disconnect is to encourage timely,
uneventful self-destruction of the alternator's
internals in a manner that mitigates risks demonstrated
countless times when the alternator remains
connected to the system.
Let's be engineers here and dispel lingering
doubts on the part of some who read this list. This
is an IMPORTANT discussion Paul. The availability
of alternators easily modified for external
regulation is low. Availability of off-the-
car alternators with stellar track records
and built in regulators is high. If we're
going to take advantage of what SHOULD be
a trend toward utilization of commercial off
the shelf products, we need to offer our
brothers and sisters good reasons and lucid
explanations for our recommendations based
on the best engineering we know.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
go to the link above and get the aeroconnection book - the 10th addition -it's
$30 - it has all the diagrams - and it's good reading - it will open your eyes
to many issues involving wiring on airplanes
Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com> wrote:--> AeroElectric-List message
posted by: Scott Bilinski
I see everyone referencing Z-this and Z-that.......This is in reference to?
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
---------------------------------
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 10415 Ferris |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> Bob:
>I'm starting to build a Rans S-12S next month.
>These question are on fuses.
>1. What are the trip characteristics of the 1-15 amp plug-in fuses on your
>website? Are they slow-blow, fast-trip, other?
They're stock automotive fast blow fuses.
>2. I will have one load that will exceed 15A - a MarinePro 250W 12V cabin
>heater. Although the thermostat will adjust power consumption as the cabin
>heats up, it could initially draw over 20 amps. How would you recommend
>that I protect the wiring to it?
>Derek
A 250 watt heater in a Rans cabin is like trying
to heat your garage with a Bic lighter. People
have installed electric heaters in airplanes
like the Long-Ez . . . had one builder go for
a 60A, 28v system in his Ez so he could have
sufficient excess watts to use for cabin heat.
Even then, the pair of 700 watt heaters were
little more than toe warmers.
Have you talked with any other Rans owners
who have installed this heater in their airplane?
The 250 W heater will draw just under 20A, more
than the total energy produced by your
alternator (I presume you're using a Rotax 912).
Believe me, the thermostat on this heater wont
shut the heat off before late spring.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Rourke <jrourke@allied-computer.com>
I believe you are referring to a 737 in Manila in May 1990?
Although explosive residue was not found, the possibility remains - I
read a report where the passenger decking being pushed upwards was
claimed to not be consistent with a fuel-tank explosion... but I haven't
read much on it, just wanted to mention that the root cause of that one
is still debated.
No other fuel-tank explosions are known in 80 years of airline
recordkeeping, according to the same reports.
-John R.
Dennis O'Connor wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor@chartermi.net>
>
> And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in front
> of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
> (I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
>
> Denny
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>>At 06:37 PM 3/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Finn Lassen
>>
> <finnlassen@netzero.net>
>
>>>Ok, I see.
>>>
>>>Could have been spectacular though: full battery voltage across a switch
>>>no longer fully submerged in oil. Wonder if the flash would have been
>>>enough to ignite the oil?
>>
>> If it were a little bit of oil in a large volume
>> of air, perhaps. You can't ignite a fuel that
>> doesn't also have the right ratio of oxygen to
>> go along with the ignition event. That's what's
>> so bogus about the official story of root-cause
>> for TWA800 . . .
>>
>> If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
>> products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
>> the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
>> your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
>> is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
>> is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
>> anytime because the chemical reaction provides
>> its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
>> It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
>> cousins make such lousy bombs.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
Wasn't that in Bangkok? The prime minister was to board the aircraft a
couple of hours later. Initial talk was an assassination attempt. Later
they said it was the center tank.
Ed Holyoke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis O'Connor
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:07 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor"
> <doconnor@chartermi.net>
>
> And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in
> front
> of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
> (I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
>
> Denny
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> >
> > At 06:37 PM 3/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Finn Lassen
> <finnlassen@netzero.net>
> > >
> > >Ok, I see.
> > >
> > >Could have been spectacular though: full battery voltage across a
> switch
> > >no longer fully submerged in oil. Wonder if the flash would have
been
> > >enough to ignite the oil?
> >
> > If it were a little bit of oil in a large volume
> > of air, perhaps. You can't ignite a fuel that
> > doesn't also have the right ratio of oxygen to
> > go along with the ignition event. That's what's
> > so bogus about the official story of root-cause
> > for TWA800 . . .
> >
> > If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
> > products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
> > the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
> > your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
> > is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
> > is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
> > anytime because the chemical reaction provides
> > its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
> > It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
> > cousins make such lousy bombs.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re:intercom question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:22 AM 3/20/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeM <mladejovsky@ced.utah.edu>
>
>
>From: "Mike Bourget" <falconaviation@rogers.com>
>
> >If I use the Icom 200, and I wish to also have a CD player do I
> >need to install an intercom?
>
>Hi Mike:
>
>I have tried to drive stereo aviation headsets (LightSpeeds)
>from a Sony Discman battery-powered CD player without extra
>amplification, and it almost works, but not quite.
<snip>
Mike, a lucid and accurate analysis. Thank you
for sharing . . .
>Being cheap, I built a little stereo amp using a single IC audio
>amp chip. It has a freq response which is flat from 10Hz to
>10KHz. It has a fixed gain of 3. It will drive four stereo
>headsets simultaneouly. The audio quality with the
>noise-cancelling LightSpeed headsets is HiFi. It automatically
>mutes the music during intercom or ATC radio activity.
>
>I haven't written this up in the form of an article for
>publication, but might be persuaded to do so...
I'd be pleased to publish it on aeroelectric.com . . .
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Automation of Alternator Disconnect system |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
Bob:
any ideas on automating the Alternator disconnect system? Like how about if the
Voltage crowbar thingy goes off, it would automatically disconnect the alternator
contactor and alternator field? this would also turn on a light to let
you know you where running only on the battery?
What things would you need to consider in an automated system which took care of
this alternator field switch and alternator disconnect switch?
---------------------------------
Message 24
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| Subject: | Electrical Noise in aircraft wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeM <mladejov@ced.utah.edu>
I have been reading the aeroelectric forum for a few months. I
have noticed that a lot of the discussions have to do with the
mechanics of wiring aircraft, i.e crimping vs soldering, wire
sizes, ring terminals, etc. Also, there is a lot of discussion
about circuit protection, redundency, reliability, spike
suppression, etc.
Occasionaly, there are a few questions about electrical noise,
i.e., shielding, grounding, ground loops, bypassing, filtering,
especially where it involves audio, intercoms, mic wiring, audio
switching panels, entertainment. Usually, what starts the
discussion is something like "how do I get the alternator
whine/strobe squeal out of my headphones?"
The topic of grounding/shielding is often the least understood,
and there is a lot of bad advice that is meted out, here
and on other forums. I'll go so far as to say that a lot of
avionics vendors, and most avionics installers dont really
know what they are doing.
I just happened to be poking around at an Intel Microcontroller
site, and found the following application note AN-125, which
succinctly discusses this topic:
http://www.intel.com/design/auto/mcs96/applnots/21031302.PDF
"Designing Microcontroller Systems for Electrically Noisy
Environments".
Read the app note. Study it. There will be a quiz....
Mike Mladejovsky
Message 25
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| Subject: | Too close to my compass? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins@globaleyes.net>
I am retrofitting my fiberglass aircraft with a B&C 200G alternator and
accompanying regulator & filter capacitor. Space behind the panel is at a
premium, and it is very difficult to work down there, close to the firewall.
I would like to install the voltage regulator right behind the panel, but
this location is about 6" forward of my whiskey compass. Do you think this
will present a problem and create magnetic interference?
If I had my druthers, I would really like to mount it on the forward side of
the firewall, but the installation diagram calls for the aft side of the FW.
Any comments?
Sam Hoskins
Quickie Q-200 ~1,375 hours
(Friends don't let friends fly metal airplanes).
Message 26
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| Subject: | Firewall penetraton for wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Triano" <rondefly@pacbell.net>
Hi Bob, Just started reading your book, Is (fire Sleave) something I
have not got to yet? Not familiar with it.
Ron Triano
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetraton for wires
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:24 PM 3/14/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Triano"
>--> <rondefly@pacbell.net>
>
>Hi Harvey, since I was the one with the stainless towel/ grab bar
>suggestion, I am supprised you found a salesman in Home depot that knew
>what supplies were in their department. If you happen to be a capable
>stainless welder you could just use a piece of tubing with a flange
>welded to the end. I am squishing mine with the flange on the firewall
>side with fire caulking then over filling the interior of the tube and
>wire with the same caulking. The caulking is readilly available in
>varying temp's.
Do I infer that you're not using fire-sleeve with
this installation?
Bob . . .
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Automation of Alternator Disconnect system |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:13 PM 3/20/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Julia <wings97302@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Bob:
>
>any ideas on automating the Alternator disconnect system? Like how about
>if the Voltage crowbar thingy goes off, it would automatically disconnect
>the alternator contactor and alternator field? this would also turn on a
>light to let you know you where running only on the battery?
>
>What things would you need to consider in an automated system which took
>care of this alternator field switch and alternator disconnect switch?
Not sure if I understand your question but I think
it's already automated. Within seconds of an
ov tripout, the bus voltage drops below 13.0 volts
and your low-voltage warning light begins to flash.
Not sure what else is needed here . . .
Bob . . .
Message 28
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:41 AM 3/20/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>I see everyone referencing Z-this and Z-that.......This is in reference to?
>
>
>Scott Bilinski
>Eng dept 305
>Phone (858) 657-2536
>Pager (858) 502-5190
Appendix Z of the AeroElectric Connection is a growing
collection of power distribution diagrams that provide
a basis configuring a system to meet your mission
needs. Most single engine airplanes produced since the
first batteries went on board about 1948 haven't materially
advanced in philosophy to this day. The Appendix Z
drawings offer a variety of starting points depending
on your mission and budget.
The drawings are part of the book . . . but since they
are updated with every revision to the book, they
can also be downloaded as part of the information
packages indexed at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html
Bob . . .
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator noise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:06 PM 3/18/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shay King" <shaking@eircom.net>
>
>Dear Bob,
>I've installed a cheap turn coordinator in my CH701. It's causing noise
>in the headset when intercom on, or when transmitting. No noise when
>receiving only. I've looked at some of your suggestions in the archive
>and will try some of them tommorrow.
>
>Is it likely that if I had bought an expensive instrument that it wouldn't
>cause noise problems?
Several people have experienced the same problem over
the years and it seems to always involve a Chinese manufactured
instrument. Someone on the list promised me the "carcase"
of his purchase should it prove to be a noise problem too.
I'll see if I can get my friends out at the RFI lab to look
at its noise characteristics. It might be possible to
craft a modification and/or filter to mitigate the problem.
Bob . . .
Message 30
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| Subject: | Contactor Questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> Bob, need to know which large posts on the S-701-1 OV Disc.
The large terminals are interchangeable. The small terminals
are also except that the diode polarity determines which
terminal gets (+) voltage.
>Contactor does the "b" lead from Alt. fasten (Bat post or other post) on
>Z-24 11/01? Also, which small post does the "F" and Alt. Fld. 5 Amp wires
>(20AWG) fasten to or does it matter?? This contactor has a diode from the
>Bat.post to the first small post on the right- horizontally. This post
>has two more diodes also - (one to the next small post to the right and
>one that fastens to the other large post not identified).
If you truly have an S701-1 contactor it should have been
sent to you looking like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-1l.jpg
Either fat terminal can be wired to the alternator with the
other one going to starter contactor. You would REMOVE the
red jumper wire visible in on the left side of the picture.
Small terminal on right goes to ground, small terminal on
left goes to your field switch.
What you've described has three diodes and probably looks
like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-2.jpg
This is the S701-2 contactor supplied with extra diodes
to serve as a cross-feed contactor in Z-14. If this is
what you have, then remove two diodes wired to each fat
terminal and then wire as described for the -1 contactor
above.
Bob . . .
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: exploding Jet-A |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:16 PM 3/20/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Rourke
><jrourke@allied-computer.com>
>
>I believe you are referring to a 737 in Manila in May 1990?
>
>Although explosive residue was not found, the possibility remains - I
>read a report where the passenger decking being pushed upwards was
>claimed to not be consistent with a fuel-tank explosion... but I haven't
>read much on it, just wanted to mention that the root cause of that one
>is still debated.
>
>No other fuel-tank explosions are known in 80 years of airline
>recordkeeping, according to the same reports.
>
>-John R.
>Dennis O'Connor wrote:
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor"
> <doconnor@chartermi.net>
> >
> > And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in
> front
> > of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
> > (I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
There has been an exhaustive study of public data on
the TWA800 incident. I've read quite a bit of it with
particular interest discussions illuminated with
logic and good physics. Like all such cases, there
are plenty of "fog generators" in the discussion
including conspiracy theorists and (not the least
of which) are agencies of government with competing
agendas.
The tank in question had to have unusable and/or
unused liquid fuel in it. I am mystified as to how
the vapor-space in any closed volume with liquid in
the bottom, dilutes what would normally be a nearly
saturated mixture of fuel/air down to a
stoichiometric ratio required for combustion with
a high release of energy with any fuel, much less
Jet-A. This is but ONE of many questions which I
find puzzling.
You're free to evaluate for yourself. There are
many reasons to be suspicious of the engineering
and investigative techniques . . . but be prepared
to spend some time looking through the details.
check out www.twa800.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~neteagle/
Here's but one of many examples of logical, detailed and
independent analysis to be found with a bit of
websearching . . .
http://www.compassionateweb.net/~missiletwa800/mann.htm
and as a tip of the iceberg . . .
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24075
http://twa800.com/news/Stalcup.htm
http://www.flight800.org/sketch.htm
http://www.multipull.com/twacasefile/second649.html
http://twa800.com/images/exhibit22c_radar.pdf
It's a complex puzzle but in the final analysis, only
the RIGHT pieces fit together into the real picture.
I've found the reasoning of a number of folks to
be compelling and in direct contradiction with
the officially published accounts.
If you feel compelled to learn and/or enjoy putting
big puzzles together one could do worse than study
what's out there on TWA800.
Bob . . .
Message 32
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om>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:07 PM 3/20/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
> >> Single ground blocks are shipped with with a shorter brass carry
>through bolt, washers and nuts for sheet metal firewalls. If in doubt as
>you your grounding needs, drop us an e-mail note.
>
>Getting ready to order some items off your website (what an awesome
>resource) and had an electric ground related question. I'm building a
>Zodiac 601HDS with a Subaru EA81 (engine mounted up front w/ starter,
>low wing, all metal) and will have the battery installed behind the
>seats due to weight and balance issues. I'll be running the battery
>cables up to the firewall area and need to decide how to deal with the
>ground cable. Would it be better to hook it on the cockpit side of the
>firewall and attach it to your 24 prong ground plane and then use a
>'patch cable' on the engine side of the firewall to the crankcase?
The ground block is intended to be used just as you've described.
The ideal installation runs (-) lead(s) for battery plus a crankcase
ground strap to the single brass bolt through the firewall.
All other grounds are best routed to the same block with
the exceptions of strobe power supply, landing and taxi lights,
pitot heater and nav lights can use local grounds where practical
on a metal airframe.
>If I understand the grounding and resistance issues properly (as far as
>the starter is concerned), it's important to have as little resistance
>as possible and having a good ground system is vital to ensure that the
>voltage available to the starter is sufficient. Since every attachment
>point raises the resistance level I wasn't sure if I should run the
>negative side of the battery to the crankcase and then jumper it back to
>the 24 prong ground plane or since the airplane is all metal, just run
>the ground cable to the crankcase and not worry about the jumper cable.
I don't know as it's "vital" . . . just good engineering
practice. A couple of hundred thousand airplanes were NOT
wired this way and they operate mostly sorta okay . . . but if
we know of a better way and it's easy to do, why not?
Bob . . .
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical Noise in aircraft wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
<snip>
>I just happened to be poking around at an Intel Microcontroller
>site, and found the following application note AN-125, which
>succinctly discusses this topic:
>
>http://www.intel.com/design/auto/mcs96/applnots/21031302.PDF
>
>"Designing Microcontroller Systems for Electrically Noisy
>Environments".
>
>Read the app note. Study it. There will be a quiz....
This is an excellent piece that describes the practical
use of a lot of good physics . . . but while many
of the principals are common, the applications are
not well translated from microprocessor-based-black-
box into a how-to-wire-airplanes language.
Most noise problems in airplanes come from poor
ground architectures. Single point grounding
takes care of this. This leaves use with a very
few issues that involve radiated or electro-statically
coupled noise which are generally pretty easy to
predict and avoid in the design phase and easy
to fix if discover that we've stubbed our toe
at some later time. I don't think I'd recommend
the airframe guy spend much time with this piece.
But if you've a hanker'n to craft some sort of
new black box, it's probably required reading whether
your box is processor based or not.
Bob . . .
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Too close to my compass? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:07 PM 3/20/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins"
><shoskins@globaleyes.net>
>
>I am retrofitting my fiberglass aircraft with a B&C 200G alternator and
>accompanying regulator & filter capacitor. Space behind the panel is at a
>premium, and it is very difficult to work down there, close to the firewall.
>
>I would like to install the voltage regulator right behind the panel, but
>this location is about 6" forward of my whiskey compass. Do you think this
>will present a problem and create magnetic interference?
probably
>If I had my druthers, I would really like to mount it on the forward side of
>the firewall, but the installation diagram calls for the aft side of the FW.
it will be okay on the forward side. You need to keep all
wiring as far as possible from compass.
Bob . . .
Message 35
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| Subject: | Firewall penetraton for wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:30 PM 3/20/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Triano" <rondefly@pacbell.net>
>
>Hi Bob, Just started reading your book, Is (fire Sleave) something I
>have not got to yet? Not familiar with it.
>
>Ron Triano
See
http://www.paragonperformance.com/Fire%20Sleeve.html
http://www.amstreetrod.com/html/firesleeve.html#desc
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/Aircraft/HoseFittings/AeroquipFiresleeve.html
Used lots of places under cowl . . . protecting
firewall penetrations for wires is but one
application. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html
Bob . . .
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