Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:19 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light warm up (John Herminghaus)
2. 05:40 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light warm up (Jack Lockamy)
3. 06:40 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light warm up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:00 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light warm up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: to Schottky or not to Shottkey, (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 07:08 AM - Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:09 AM - Colorado Seminar Date Set (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 07:15 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light warm up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 07:27 AM - E.I. instruments need pampering? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 07:29 AM - Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect ()
11. 08:27 AM - Re: off topic (Jim Robinson)
12. 08:40 AM - Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 08:42 AM - LVM Questions (Phil Birkelbach)
14. 08:59 AM - Re: off topic (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 09:42 AM - Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? (Aucountry@aol.com)
16. 09:55 AM - Re: PM Alternator run ok without battery? (David Carter)
17. 09:59 AM - Off topic-tach (lonnwood)
18. 10:25 AM - Re: Off topic-tach (David Swartzendruber)
19. 11:10 AM - Re: Off topic-tach (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 11:16 AM - Re: Battery bus architecture (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 11:18 AM - Re: PM Alternator run ok without battery? (Phil Birkelbach)
22. 11:30 AM - Re: LVM Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 11:47 AM - Re: LVM Questions (Phil Birkelbach)
24. 12:23 PM - strobe wiring (Shannon Knoepflein)
25. 12:31 PM - Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? (Shannon Knoepflein)
26. 12:43 PM - Re: Off topic-tach (Cy Galley)
27. 12:49 PM - Re: strobe wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 12:49 PM - Re: Off topic-tach (Tom Schiff)
29. 12:52 PM - Re: Off topic-tach (Tom Schiff)
30. 01:49 PM - Re: Off topic-tach (Cy Galley)
31. 01:55 PM - Current draw of common devices? (Steve Sampson)
32. 02:11 PM - RF power (Bill Hibbing)
33. 02:19 PM - Re: strobe wiring (Shannon Knoepflein)
34. 02:19 PM - Re: Off topic-tach (Shannon Knoepflein)
35. 02:47 PM - Off topic - TV antenna (Jim Pack)
36. 03:50 PM - Re: Landing/taxi light warm up (fellowsw)
37. 04:24 PM - Re: Off topic - TV antenna (Richard Tasker)
38. 05:03 PM - Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? (Will N. Stevenson)
39. 05:17 PM - Re: Landing/taxi light warm up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
40. 05:24 PM - Re: strobe wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
41. 05:28 PM - Re: RF power (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
42. 05:48 PM - Re: Current draw of common devices? (Shannon Knoepflein)
43. 06:11 PM - Re: strobe wiring (Shannon Knoepflein)
44. 06:16 PM - Re: Current draw of common devices? (Ron Triano)
45. 07:07 PM - Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
46. 07:07 PM - Multiple GPS feeds (Steve J Hurlbut)
47. 07:25 PM - Re: Multiple GPS feeds (Alex Peterson)
48. 08:07 PM - Landing/taxi light (j1j2h3@juno.com)
49. 08:45 PM - Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? (Joel Harding)
50. 08:49 PM - Re: RF power (Bill Hibbing)
51. 08:55 PM - Re: Off topic-tach (Robert McCallum)
52. 09:58 PM - Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect (Rick Fogerson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Herminghaus <catignano@everyday.com>
Looks very interesting. Where can it be purchased.
John Herminghaus
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Life IS a real issue with aviation lamps which tend to be
>
> old technology, relatively short lived and expensive when
> compared to modern automotive and commercial halogen
> lamps. If it were my airplane and I could live with a
> leading edge installation, I'd work really hard to get
> this lamp installed in my leading edges:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/4352.JPG
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy@att.net>
Bob,
Where can I find more info about the 55w Landing/Taxi lights shown in the link
you provided? Vendor? Price?
Thanks,
RV-7A N174JL reserved
Jack Lockamy
www.jacklockamy.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:38 AM 4/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy@att.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>Where can I find more info about the 55w Landing/Taxi lights shown in the
>link you provided? Vendor? Price?
They're automotive products . . . found everywhere. Walmart,
Autozone, speed and sport automotive shops, J.C. Whitney
etc. etc. There's no such thing as a "landing light" . . .
there are LOTS of lighting products that can be properly
considered for the task and they're all around you.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:18 PM 4/3/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Herminghaus
><catignano@everyday.com>
>
>Looks very interesting. Where can it be purchased.
Car parts store . . . #4352 It was only used
on a few years of GM vehicles . . . low volume
product so expect to pay about $20 per bulb. But
they are the right size, shape and technology. Should
last a VERY long time in your airplane.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: to Schottky or not to Shottkey, |
that IS thw question . . .
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:29 AM 4/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski
><krasinski@direcway.com>
>
>Bob,
>My response was not to argue with you. In fact I agree with your
>position. I would even add to your arguments that a low forward voltage
>drop is typical for Schottky diodes with low breakdown voltage, which
>might require some sort of protection of the low voltage diode to play
>it safe. That makes their use more difficult than that for a regular
>rectifier diode. And for Schottky diodes with a high breakdown voltage
>you find that the forward voltage drop is not much different than that
>for regular junction diodes, which makes the main benefit of low forward
>voltage drop questionable.
>
>But Shannon said: "...considering Eric's diode is the only one readily
>available that will handle the 20A...." I wanted to show that there
>are many of such diodes around.
No argument perceived or intended my frined . . . just making sure all
the simple-ideas surrounding the subject were laid out for
review . . .
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:16 PM 4/2/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
><dcarter@datarecall.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>When you say "turn off the battery master & 'lectric dependent engine should
>keep running" - I would have the engine computer (ign & fuel inj) & fuel
>injection pumps wired to battery bus with their own individual ON-OFF
>switches. (& battery bus is the big brass bar with terminals bolted to both
>sides of firewall).
Battery bus is a fuse block like
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/ckrtprot/fuseblks.jpg
or a row of breakers tied together with a strip of brass
just like the rows of breakers in every certified airplane.
You mount the fuse block or mini-breaker panel right next
to the battery with shortest practical leads for the always-
hot feed between battery and bus.
> -So, these two critical functions don't depend on any battery
>contactor - or alternator - just at least one good battery and their own
>switches getting power from the battery bus.
>
>Is that the idea?
That's the way I would do it . . .
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Colorado Seminar Date Set |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Just got word from some folks in Englewood that they
DO wish to host a weekend seminar in Colorado . . . I'd
about given up on them, the date we'd discussed is
only 6 weeks away. However, they think we can get enough
people signed up in that time so I've posted the event
reservation at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/seminars/Englewood.html
. . . anyone on the list interested in this program
is invited to check it out.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
Message 8
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| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:46 PM 4/3/2003 +0900, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "fellowsw" <fellows.w@ewcapital.net>
>
>
>Bob
>
>Thanks for your prompt reply. I don't contribute often since I am still in
>the early planning stages but this my chance to say thank you very much for
>your work. You are a truly amazing in terms of knowledge, appreciation of
>the OBAM aircraft group and generosity with you time.
>
>I am not concerned about meeting FAR's since mine will be OBAM. I am used to
>flying at night into uncontrolled airports, in rain or snow and even
>occasionally into grass strips or farm roads. I typically fly a Cessna 210
>type aircraft with approximately 100 knot approach speed and 2,000 ft
>landing distance. When thinking about my experience, the main concerns are
>(i) short term illumination for touchdown, (ii) being able to see rain or
>snow on a runway and (iii) animals on or near the runway. I was hoping to
>have something like you have on fast twins which I believe is about
>200,000-300,000 candlepower. My experience seems to tell me that the
>lighting on a 210 is not enough but that on a fast twin is ok. I would
>definitely prefer halogen to certified lamps for reliability and to hid
>lights for visibility in high traffic areas. I was planning to do the
>physics myself but a quick look seemed to show the 55W bulbs were well short
>of this. I was hoping that someone out there had done the physics
>calculations and could share them. I was also hoping to find something in 28
>volts.
You're plowing new ground here. The aviation community hasn't bothered
with it (unless you're a Boeing or Airbus) and there's too much
dis-incentive
for the managers of smaller ships to work the issue. Shucks, what we've
got has worked well for 40 years, why change?
You'll need to get catalogs from the current players in sealed beams
and then order the tech data sheets on lamps of interest. There's
not going to be a lot of choices. You might call out to your closest
airport and talk to airline maintenance mechanics. They'll have
hands-on access to replacement lamps currently favored by the
folks closest to the leading edge.
What kind of airplane are you considering and/or building?
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | E.I. instruments need pampering? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:43 PM 4/2/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joel Harding <cajole76@ispwest.com>
>
>I was talking to a rep from E. I. about hooking up my engine analyzer a
>couple of days ago, and he mentioned that it should be isolated from
>the starter circuit during start.
>This may be similar to the discussion on protecting avionics from the
>starter circuit, but could I get some suggestions on how best to
>achieve this?
>Any comments will be appreciated.
Ask him why. Odds are (1) he hasn't the foggiest notion as
to the physical requirements of the product and is simply
regurgitating 40 years of dogma or (2) is admitting his
product can't survive a perfectly normal operating condition
in a single engine airplane.
Your choices are few and simple. (1) put a separately switched
and pampered "avionics bus" in your airplane to accommodate
the inability of modern product to cope with simple reality,
(2) choose alternative products wherein the manufacturers
have done their homework (3) or get E.I. to step up to their
responsibility to the aviation community and put real facts
out on the table.
It sure gets wearisome to hear of manufacturers of supposedly
modern products still disseminating this stuff. I'm thinking
about publishing a list of manufacturers on my website who
are unwilling/unable to join the ranks of truly capable
suppliers. Perhaps E.I. should be at the top of the list.
I've forwarded a copy of this to E.I. Lets see if someone
there can explain what appears to be a confessed shortcoming
in the design and fabrication of their products.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
Just curious how to wire in a PM alternator to take over the power supply
for this scenario in the event the Battery fails. I guess another feed
would come from an essential bus that is fed by the PM alternator? Battery
fails, Pilot turns off battery ignition switch that is located between
battery and ignition then turns on alternate feed from PM???
I had a battery fail last summer in my Tiger. It has a dead cell which
caused the 60amp panel breaker to blow, with sparks! I turned off the bat
and alternator rockers and made it home on the mags. I would like to be
able to do this with the non mag ignition....
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 11:16 PM 4/2/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
> ><dcarter@datarecall.net>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >When you say "turn off the battery master & 'lectric dependent engine
should
> >keep running" - I would have the engine computer (ign & fuel inj) & fuel
> >injection pumps wired to battery bus with their own individual ON-OFF
> >switches. (& battery bus is the big brass bar with terminals bolted to
both
> >sides of firewall).
>
>
> Battery bus is a fuse block like
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/ckrtprot/fuseblks.jpg
> or a row of breakers tied together with a strip of brass
> just like the rows of breakers in every certified airplane.
> You mount the fuse block or mini-breaker panel right next
> to the battery with shortest practical leads for the always-
> hot feed between battery and bus.
>
> > -So, these two critical functions don't depend on any battery
> >contactor - or alternator - just at least one good battery and their own
> >switches getting power from the battery bus.
> >
> >Is that the idea?
>
> That's the way I would do it . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Robinson" <jbr@hitechnetworks.net>
Bob
I have a question off topic. I have a diesel car that the tach run
from an output pin on the alternator. I change alternator setup and
the new alternator uses a smaller pulley, thus turning faster
therefore the tach reads too high. The tach drive output is a voltage
increasing with RPM. Could something be put in line from the
alternator to the tach to correct this value.
If this is not appropriate for this forum I can be reached at
jbr@hitechnetworks.net
Jim Robinson
Glasair 79R (my other ride)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:31 AM 4/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
>
>Just curious how to wire in a PM alternator to take over the power supply
>for this scenario in the event the Battery fails.
Properly maintained batteries do not fail.
> I guess another feed
>would come from an essential bus that is fed by the PM alternator? Battery
>fails, Pilot turns off battery ignition switch that is located between
>battery and ignition then turns on alternate feed from PM???
>
>I had a battery fail last summer in my Tiger. It has a dead cell which
>caused the 60amp panel breaker to blow, with sparks! I turned off the bat
>and alternator rockers and made it home on the mags. I would like to be
>able to do this with the non mag ignition....
That's a common problem with certified ships that drag
antiquated technologies along on every flight. That 60A
breaker should be a current limiter on firewall. The
battery should be an RG device replaced when capacity
falls below useful levels. You're worrying about a situation
in a certified ship that need not happen in your OBAM
aircraft.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
I would like to build the LVM myself but I don't want the flashing light
option. How do I modify this circuit...
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
... to sink current from an LED. I already have a light box planned out and
it is full of LED's that are powered internally so I need all of my triggers
to sink the current to ground.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:27 AM 4/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Robinson"
><jbr@hitechnetworks.net>
>
>Bob
>I have a question off topic. I have a diesel car that the tach run
>from an output pin on the alternator. I change alternator setup and
>the new alternator uses a smaller pulley, thus turning faster
>therefore the tach reads too high. The tach drive output is a voltage
>increasing with RPM. Could something be put in line from the
>alternator to the tach to correct this value.
>If this is not appropriate for this forum I can be reached at
>jbr@hitechnetworks.net
It's not a voltage amplitude but a frequency. The frequency of AC
is a function of shaft RPM of alternator. You'll need a
"ratiometric frequency changer" which is not difficult to build but
it's not an off-the-shelf device either. I've built these.
Had to adapt a 25 hp variable dive system to a new tachometer
about 25 years ago. The simplest thing to do is put some thin
strips of tape on face of instrument at the 1000 rpm marks
and do a mental interpolation for intermediate readings.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 04/03/03 07:28:19 AM, bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
> It sure gets wearisome to hear of manufacturers of supposedly
>=A0 modern products still disseminating this stuff. I'm thinking
>=A0 about publishing a list of manufacturers on my website who
>=A0 are unwilling/unable to join the ranks of truly capable
>=A0 suppliers. Perhaps E.I. should be at the top of the list.
>
the installation instructions for the JPI 700 say the same thing. I've
never installed one on an avionics bus and don't intend to. If it fails,
send it back for warranty. If enough get sent back, they'll fix the
problem.
Gary
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: PM Alternator run ok without battery? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Ned,
I don't think there is any issue about "the PM alternator working properly
without the battery". That's the way they work.
Someone help me if that's not correct.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: <315@cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: PM Alternator run ok without battery?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
>
> I have a John Deere supplied 20 Amp PM Dynamo and regulator and want to
verify that they will operate okay after the battery is disconnected. I
plan on using the B&C Perment Magnet Alternator Over Voltage modual with
noise filter:
>
> http://www.bandcspecialty.com/PmOVdesc.html
>
> Since the internally regulated Denso alternator recently OV'd, I thought
that perhaps the PM would be a better full time power supply that it is
supposed to be able to run okay when the battery dies.
>
> Any thoughts as to the best way to configure this and also to verify that
it works okay without the battery?
>
> Thanks,
> Ned
>
>
Message 17
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "lonnwood" <lonnwood@msn.com>
At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that often
bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap automotive
tach
to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf pickup would
work for this? This is something I will
have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for an industrial
system.
Thanks,
Lonnie
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
The speed sensor from the transmission of a car with an electronic
speedometer might be adapted. Aftermarket speed sensors are also
available. You could then buy an aftermarket electronic speedo that can
be set at any ratio you want. 50 mph would be 5000 rpm or 500 rpm or
whatever fits the speed range of your cutter head. I bought a VDO
speedo once and you could set it by either hitting the button at the
beginning and end of a mile, or you could manually set the pulses per
mile. I'm suggesting using a speedo simply because I'm not aware of any
aftermarket tach's with the same adjustment capability.
Dave in Wichita
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "lonnwood" <lonnwood@msn.com>
>
> At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor
that
> often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a
cheap
> automotive tach
> to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
> pickup would work for this? This is something I will
> have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay
for
> an industrial system.
> Thanks,
> Lonnie
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic-tach |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:53 PM 4/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "lonnwood" <lonnwood@msn.com>
>
>At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
>often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
>automotive tach
>to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
>pickup would work for this? This is something I will
>have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for
>an industrial system.
>Thanks,
There are a number of approaches to measure speed
but I'll suggest that if you're wanting to provide
a presentation to the operator to manually adjust
feed rates, monitoring current is more appropriate.
I suspect the motor is a 3-phase induction device.
You can put a current transformer over one of the
three phases and display the resulting current on
a meter at the operating position.
There are hundreds of companies that make these parts.
You need to fine out what the full load current per
phase is for the motor. Pick a transformer with a
full scale rating equal to or greater than the
motor's full load current.
Instrumentation grade transformers are typically
$30. You drive an panel AC ammeter with the output
of the transformer. The panel meter can be located
some distance away from the current transformer which
would be somewhere near the motor.
Here's one source of transformers:
http://www.crmagnetics.com/newprod/ctransformersg.asp
After a little observation of current vs. stall
tendencies, the operator will quickly learn how
much load can be put on the saw without pushing
it over the hump and onto the back side of it's
speed/torque curve.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Battery bus architecture |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:33 PM 4/2/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
>
>Okay. now I think I got it....
>
>I didn't want to have to run more wires from the panel back to the battery
>in the tail cone, but what you have shown makes sense and looks a lot safer
>than what I actually have now. (BTW, This is not hypothetical but a flying
>RV6A....uhm, well until that alternator OV'd last month.)
>
>Existing now is one 'unprotected' fat wire running about 10 feet from
>battery to contactor behind the panel then on to the starter and then
>alternator... I don't really like having that always hot fat wire under my
>arm. This needs to have a contactor like the S701-1 at the battery
>location. I then need to add a battery bus next to the battery. Then I need
>to add a fused lead for the ignition coils and other leads if greater than 5
>or perhaps 7A would be pilot controllable contactors. (i.e. for the
>essential bus if > 7A )
>
>Okay, so I will need to add a contactor or two, a fuse block and some more
>wires but it is starting to look "cleaner" in spite of the additional
>wiring...
>
>Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out,
>Ned
No problem, that's what the list is all about . . .
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: PM Alternator run ok without battery? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
I might be wrong but I think the only issue is that you need some power to
get the Aux Alternator relay closed and then once the alternator is online
it will stay online with or without the battery. Somebody correct me if I
am misunderstanding this.
The obvious solution is to use a switch instead of the relay but then you
have to run that long wire from the alternator to the panel and long powered
wires that cannot be powered off from inside the aircraft are to be avoided
if possible. Except for the low current battery buss circuits that were
discussed in a recent thread. The relay can be located physically close to
the alternator and thus allows it to be disconnected remotely.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM Alternator run ok without battery?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
<dcarter@datarecall.net>
>
> Ned,
>
> I don't think there is any issue about "the PM alternator working properly
> without the battery". That's the way they work.
>
> Someone help me if that's not correct.
>
> David
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <315@cox.net>
> To: "Aeroelectric-List@Matronics.Com" <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: PM Alternator run ok without battery?
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
> >
> > I have a John Deere supplied 20 Amp PM Dynamo and regulator and want to
> verify that they will operate okay after the battery is disconnected. I
> plan on using the B&C Perment Magnet Alternator Over Voltage modual with
> noise filter:
> >
> > http://www.bandcspecialty.com/PmOVdesc.html
> >
> > Since the internally regulated Denso alternator recently OV'd, I thought
> that perhaps the PM would be a better full time power supply that it is
> supposed to be able to run okay when the battery dies.
> >
> > Any thoughts as to the best way to configure this and also to verify
that
> it works okay without the battery?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ned
> >
> >
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: LVM Questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:42 AM 4/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach"
><phil@petrasoft.net>
>
>I would like to build the LVM myself but I don't want the flashing light
>option. How do I modify this circuit...
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
See http://216.55.140.222/temp/9005-615.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: LVM Questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
Perfect thanks. I guess that is why they pay you the big bucks. :-)
Do Not Archive
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LVM Questions
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 10:42 AM 4/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach"
> ><phil@petrasoft.net>
> >
> >I would like to build the LVM myself but I don't want the flashing light
> >option. How do I modify this circuit...
> >
> >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
>
> See http://216.55.140.222/temp/9005-615.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 24
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
Seeing the strobe power supply reminded me of a question I had about
strobe wiring. The strobe power supply is said to draw a max of 7A. I
imagine it's less than that. The supplied 3 conductor shielded cable
that comes with the strobe kit is 3 conductor 18 gauge, which seems like
way overkill (and quite cumbersome to run in the tight confines that I'm
left with), especially considering there are 3 bulbs being powered from
the single power supply. In your opinion, would 22-3 shielded suffice?
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net
Message 25
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| Subject: | E.I. instruments need pampering? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
I tend to agree. The only component that I've seen that I think could
really have a problem is an EFIS that runs some sort of operating system
that has to boot up. The SFS EFIS I'm using has this exact problem...if
the voltage gets low enough to cause it to reset (~8.5 volts it appears
to not come on) and if its at the exact right point in the boot sequence
where it is opening and closing config files, it could actually mess up.
Most of the other components, such as the JPI and EI, really won't have
an issue I don't think. Most of the salesman just regurgitate the
hogwash they heard for 40 years, just like Bob said.
The only way to know is to just call them and find someone
knowledgeable. I called on several of my components per Bob's
suggestion, and found the only one with a real concern was the EFIS due
to its "booting up".
Since the EFIS PFD is one of my essential pieces, my way around this was
to create a hybrid avionics and e-buss together, with an alt feed switch
directly from battery. At first Bob was against this, but I think he
has since accepted it as the best solution for the given problem I was
presented with in dealing with the pampered EFIS.
Good luck.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Aucountry@aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E.I. instruments need pampering?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 04/03/03 07:28:19 AM, bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
> It sure gets wearisome to hear of manufacturers of supposedly
>=A0 modern products still disseminating this stuff. I'm thinking
>=A0 about publishing a list of manufacturers on my website who
>=A0 are unwilling/unable to join the ranks of truly capable
>=A0 suppliers. Perhaps E.I. should be at the top of the list.
>
the installation instructions for the JPI 700 say the same thing. I've
never installed one on an avionics bus and don't intend to. If it
fails,
send it back for warranty. If enough get sent back, they'll fix the
problem.
Gary
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic-tach |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
One could buy and optical tach and aim at a rotating part that has a white
strip on it. Hobby shops have them very reasonable, Might have to adapt a
wall pig for continuous power.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber"
<dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
>
> The speed sensor from the transmission of a car with an electronic
> speedometer might be adapted. Aftermarket speed sensors are also
> available. You could then buy an aftermarket electronic speedo that can
> be set at any ratio you want. 50 mph would be 5000 rpm or 500 rpm or
> whatever fits the speed range of your cutter head. I bought a VDO
> speedo once and you could set it by either hitting the button at the
> beginning and end of a mile, or you could manually set the pulses per
> mile. I'm suggesting using a speedo simply because I'm not aware of any
> aftermarket tach's with the same adjustment capability.
>
> Dave in Wichita
>
>
> >
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "lonnwood" <lonnwood@msn.com>
> >
> > At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor
> that
> > often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a
> cheap
> > automotive tach
> > to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
> > pickup would work for this? This is something I will
> > have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay
> for
> > an industrial system.
> > Thanks,
> > Lonnie
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: strobe wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 03:23 PM 4/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein"
><kycshann@kyol.net>
>
>Seeing the strobe power supply reminded me of a question I had about
>strobe wiring. The strobe power supply is said to draw a max of 7A. I
>imagine it's less than that. The supplied 3 conductor shielded cable
>that comes with the strobe kit is 3 conductor 18 gauge, which seems like
>way overkill (and quite cumbersome to run in the tight confines that I'm
>left with), especially considering there are 3 bulbs being powered from
>the single power supply. In your opinion, would 22-3 shielded suffice?
First, the current draw figure is from the 14v bus . . . and as
you properly guessed, that is a peak value. This is not related
to current that flows in the wires out to flash tubes. If your
power supply delivers 20 joules of energy (20 watt seconds) to
each tube per flash you can assume the flash happens in about 2 milli-
seconds. Therefore, peak power to the tube is 20/.002 or 10,000 watts.
The capacitors in the power supply charge up to about 300 volts
so peak current to the tube during flash time is 10,000/300
or 33 Amps. Wire that appears to be heavier-than-necessary is
indeed appropriate to reduce loss of energy that you'd really
like to see applied to the tube and not warming up wires in
the wings. The designers would probably have been happier with
16 AWG shielded but 18 is a not-too-whimpy compromise. 22 AWG
would definitely be too small.
Bob . . .
Message 28
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Schiff" <tomschiff@attbi.com>
You might try a bike shop. They make speedometers that run off of
magnets that are attached to the wheel. They are made for low rpm but
maybe you can attach the magnet some where the motor speed has been
reduced.
Another option would be the electronic tacks that are made to monitor
propeller rpm. They work on the principle that there is a white mark on
the propeller some where.
If the motor is a gas engine rather than electric, then you should be
able to get a tach at any auto parts store. They are triggered by a lead
to the low side of the coil.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lonnwood
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "lonnwood" <lonnwood@msn.com>
At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
automotive tach
to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
pickup would work for this? This is something I will
have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for
an industrial system.
Thanks,
Lonnie
Message 29
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Schiff" <tomschiff@attbi.com>
One more idea, Auto speedometers on older cars worked on the principal
that 60 Mph was 1000 rpm of the spedo shaft.(newer ones may work the
same way but I am not current in that field) You might be able to get a
junk yard speedometer with the cable and hook that up to the motor. Gee
I am sawing wood at 180 mph <grin>.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lonnwood
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "lonnwood" <lonnwood@msn.com>
At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
automotive tach
to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
pickup would work for this? This is something I will
have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for
an industrial system.
Thanks,
Lonnie
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic-tach |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
The bike one is good but doesn't the current go up as the load increases? A
cheap snap a round ammeter might do everything you need.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Schiff" <tomschiff@attbi.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Schiff"
<tomschiff@attbi.com>
>
> You might try a bike shop. They make speedometers that run off of
> magnets that are attached to the wheel. They are made for low rpm but
> maybe you can attach the magnet some where the motor speed has been
> reduced.
>
> Another option would be the electronic tacks that are made to monitor
> propeller rpm. They work on the principle that there is a white mark on
> the propeller some where.
>
> If the motor is a gas engine rather than electric, then you should be
> able to get a tach at any auto parts store. They are triggered by a lead
> to the low side of the coil.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> lonnwood
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "lonnwood" <lonnwood@msn.com>
>
> At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
> often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
> automotive tach
> to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
> pickup would work for this? This is something I will
> have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for
> an industrial system.
> Thanks,
> Lonnie
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Current draw of common devices? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
Its getting to the time when I need to draw up a schedule of all the
electric devices on the RV I am building and work out the wiring. First off
I want to list the devices (radio / wing leveller / instruments / lamps etc)
and their current drain. Being lazy I wondered if anyone knew of one place
where the common devices are already listed so I do not have to find the
spec of each.
Thanks, Steve.
Message 32
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
Hi Group,
I tried to have my transponder/blind encoder certified today but we couldn't
get a signal out of it. I was thinking that the first step in trouble
shooting is to see if the transpnder in mode A is transmitting (after I
recheck the antenna coax) and wondered where I could get an RF power meter
to check if there is anything coming out of the antenna. Any one have any
thoughts? Any suggestions are welcome. BTW, the xpndr does have power
going to it and it does turn on ok. Thanks in advance for any help.
Bill
Glasair
Message 33
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
Hrm. That sucks as I already ran it at 22-3. After writing the email,
I called Whelen to get some specs on the HDACF power supply I'm using.
Turns out its 21J, and it flashes on some deal they call Cometflash.
Cometflash pulses the tube 4 times in rapid succession so the effective
on-time is increases from 2ms to 400ms, which they say increases
visibility. Also, I learned that the output voltage is 500-600 volts.
What will happen if I leave it at 22-3? I mean, I understand the
physics of steady state stuff, but this is happening so quick that I'm
wondering if the wire will actually heat up and melt, or will I just
loose some output of the lights, or (most likely) both?
This will be a fun project to fix. :(
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: strobe wiring
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 03:23 PM 4/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein"
><kycshann@kyol.net>
>
>Seeing the strobe power supply reminded me of a question I had about
>strobe wiring. The strobe power supply is said to draw a max of 7A. I
>imagine it's less than that. The supplied 3 conductor shielded cable
>that comes with the strobe kit is 3 conductor 18 gauge, which seems
like
>way overkill (and quite cumbersome to run in the tight confines that
I'm
>left with), especially considering there are 3 bulbs being powered from
>the single power supply. In your opinion, would 22-3 shielded
suffice?
First, the current draw figure is from the 14v bus . . . and as
you properly guessed, that is a peak value. This is not related
to current that flows in the wires out to flash tubes. If your
power supply delivers 20 joules of energy (20 watt seconds) to
each tube per flash you can assume the flash happens in about 2
milli-
seconds. Therefore, peak power to the tube is 20/.002 or 10,000
watts.
The capacitors in the power supply charge up to about 300 volts
so peak current to the tube during flash time is 10,000/300
or 33 Amps. Wire that appears to be heavier-than-necessary is
indeed appropriate to reduce loss of energy that you'd really
like to see applied to the tube and not warming up wires in
the wings. The designers would probably have been happier with
16 AWG shielded but 18 is a not-too-whimpy compromise. 22 AWG
would definitely be too small.
Bob . . .
Message 34
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
Get some reflective tape and an eye to see it and a cheap little PLC to
use as a counter. Should be able to be had for under 500 bucks I'd say.
If you wanted, you could use the PLC to control the whole saw and
improve the system I'm sure.
(sorry if I lost you, controls is what I do day in day out)
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Schiff
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Schiff"
<tomschiff@attbi.com>
You might try a bike shop. They make speedometers that run off of
magnets that are attached to the wheel. They are made for low rpm but
maybe you can attach the magnet some where the motor speed has been
reduced.
Another option would be the electronic tacks that are made to monitor
propeller rpm. They work on the principle that there is a white mark on
the propeller some where.
If the motor is a gas engine rather than electric, then you should be
able to get a tach at any auto parts store. They are triggered by a lead
to the low side of the coil.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lonnwood
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "lonnwood" <lonnwood@msn.com>
At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
automotive tach
to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
pickup would work for this? This is something I will
have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for
an industrial system.
Thanks,
Lonnie
Message 35
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| Subject: | Off topic - TV antenna |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Pack" <jpack@igs3.com>
Does anyone know if those TV antennas that you plug into the electric outlet
really work? (purportedly using the wiring in the walls as the antenna)?
Thanks,
Jim
Message 36
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| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "fellowsw" <fellows.w@ewcapital.net>
-----Original Message-----
Thanks for the tip -- I will do the analysis unless someone does it first.
Put some of that university physics to use again. I am thinking about Martin
Hollman's Stallion but am not sure he is going to be able to sell enough of
them to provide a comfortable level of debugging of the design. Are there
any trucks or other vehicles that are using 28v systems? I want the 28v for
the higher power transmitters in a com radio. Based on using mostly B&C
alternators and regulators, I do not see a big cost difference in using a
28v system if you have to add a voltage doubler for the avionics.
Walter Fellows
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic - TV antenna |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
Depends on what you mean by "work"...
Jim Pack wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Pack" <jpack@igs3.com>
>
>Does anyone know if those TV antennas that you plug into the electric outlet
>really work? (purportedly using the wiring in the walls as the antenna)?
>
>Thanks,
>Jim
>
>
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Will N. Stevenson" <willst@attbi.com>
I just installed a JPI EDM 800 in my certified aircraft using a 2 amp
breaker that comes off of the avionics bus. So, the EDM stays off during
start-up until I flip the radio master switch after start-up. Works great.
It's important on an EDM to ground it directly to the engine--maybe not so
important on an E.I.
Will (new list member)
Message 39
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| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:50 AM 4/4/2003 +0900, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "fellowsw" <fellows.w@ewcapital.net>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Thanks for the tip -- I will do the analysis unless someone does it first.
>Put some of that university physics to use again. I am thinking about Martin
>Hollman's Stallion but am not sure he is going to be able to sell enough of
>them to provide a comfortable level of debugging of the design. Are there
>any trucks or other vehicles that are using 28v systems? I want the 28v for
>the higher power transmitters in a com radio.
Really????? Just to get the bigger transmitters? How much
do you need?
Bob . . .
Message 40
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:18 PM 4/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein"
><kycshann@kyol.net>
>
>Hrm. That sucks as I already ran it at 22-3. After writing the email,
>I called Whelen to get some specs on the HDACF power supply I'm using.
>Turns out its 21J, and it flashes on some deal they call Cometflash.
>Cometflash pulses the tube 4 times in rapid succession so the effective
>on-time is increases from 2ms to 400ms, which they say increases
>visibility. Also, I learned that the output voltage is 500-600 volts.
If each flash is 21J and it happens 4x/second means power delivered
to the tubes is 84 w/sec . . . I'm skeptical that their fixtures
are really set up to handle that kind of dissipation. I wonder if
the FAA lets them do 4 x 5W pulses per flash for a total of 20 per
second . . .
>What will happen if I leave it at 22-3? I mean, I understand the
>physics of steady state stuff, but this is happening so quick that I'm
>wondering if the wire will actually heat up and melt, or will I just
>loose some output of the lights, or (most likely) both?
It doesn't work as designed . . . and to attempt
to produce some number like 70% or 60% or even
80% of design goal would be meaningless . . .
. . . you can let it go and then see if you
"like" the results.
Bob . . .
Message 41
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:10 PM 4/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
>
>Hi Group,
>I tried to have my transponder/blind encoder certified today but we couldn't
>get a signal out of it. I was thinking that the first step in trouble
>shooting is to see if the transpnder in mode A is transmitting (after I
>recheck the antenna coax) and wondered where I could get an RF power meter
>to check if there is anything coming out of the antenna. Any one have any
>thoughts? Any suggestions are welcome. BTW, the xpndr does have power
>going to it and it does turn on ok. Thanks in advance for any help.
>Bill
>Glasair
Average power out of a transponder is very small . . . you need
a peak reading wattmeter. THEN you have to figure out a way to
talk the transponder into replying. A bench test may be the
best way check it. A flight check would work too . . . but only
to the extent that the radar guy can 'see' you; not very quantitative.
If the tech was using a ramp tester to read your encoder, then
he would have been able to detect ANY output power. Was the
reply light reacting to the ramp tester?
Bob . . .
Message 42
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| Subject: | Current draw of common devices? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
I have a spreadsheet of my load analysis at
http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair
The devices aren't all common, but it might help you to get started.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sampson
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Current draw of common devices?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson"
<SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
Its getting to the time when I need to draw up a schedule of all the
electric devices on the RV I am building and work out the wiring. First
off
I want to list the devices (radio / wing leveller / instruments / lamps
etc)
and their current drain. Being lazy I wondered if anyone knew of one
place
where the common devices are already listed so I do not have to find the
spec of each.
Thanks, Steve.
Message 43
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
I tend to agree on the 5J part. There website led me to believe that it
was 21J total, and the 4 pulses were part of that.
http://www.whelen.com/pb/11015.htm
Attached is a fax they sent me, which contradicts a little, so I'm still
trying to sort through the info.
If I understand the website and Bobs interpretation correctly (and
accept the 500V output I was told on the phone...is this reasonable?),
each pulse would be about 5.25J, which would make the current 5.3A
(5.25J/2ms/500V) instead of 21A (21J/2ms/500V) if I figure correctly.
Or it could be figured as 1 21J pulse over 400ms, which is about 0.1A.
So, if I'm figuring correctly, the average current is going to be about
0.1A, with peaks of 5.25A? That seems doable with 22-3. I guess I'm
messing it up somewhere.
Are there any risks (like melting wires) associated with letting it go?
(for now at least)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: strobe wiring
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:18 PM 4/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein"
><kycshann@kyol.net>
>
>Hrm. That sucks as I already ran it at 22-3. After writing the email,
>I called Whelen to get some specs on the HDACF power supply I'm using.
>Turns out its 21J, and it flashes on some deal they call Cometflash.
>Cometflash pulses the tube 4 times in rapid succession so the effective
>on-time is increases from 2ms to 400ms, which they say increases
>visibility. Also, I learned that the output voltage is 500-600 volts.
If each flash is 21J and it happens 4x/second means power delivered
to the tubes is 84 w/sec . . . I'm skeptical that their fixtures
are really set up to handle that kind of dissipation. I wonder if
the FAA lets them do 4 x 5W pulses per flash for a total of 20 per
second . . .
>What will happen if I leave it at 22-3? I mean, I understand the
>physics of steady state stuff, but this is happening so quick that I'm
>wondering if the wire will actually heat up and melt, or will I just
>loose some output of the lights, or (most likely) both?
It doesn't work as designed . . . and to attempt
to produce some number like 70% or 60% or even
80% of design goal would be meaningless . . .
. . . you can let it go and then see if you
"like" the results.
Bob . . .
Message 44
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| Subject: | Current draw of common devices? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Triano" <rondefly@pacbell.net>
Steve: Try Jon Finley's site, he has a excel spreadsheet of his showing
all.
http://www.finleyweb.net/docs/Electrical-LoadAnalysis.xls
Ron Triano
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Shannon Knoepflein
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Current draw of common devices?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein"
--> <kycshann@kyol.net>
I have a spreadsheet of my load analysis at
http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair
The devices aren't all common, but it might help you to get started.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sampson
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Current draw of common devices?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson"
<SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
Its getting to the time when I need to draw up a schedule of all the
electric devices on the RV I am building and work out the wiring. First
off I want to list the devices (radio / wing leveller / instruments /
lamps
etc)
and their current drain. Being lazy I wondered if anyone knew of one
place where the common devices are already listed so I do not have to
find the spec of each.
Thanks, Steve.
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 45
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| Subject: | RE: E.I. instruments need pampering? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:28 PM 4/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>Robert L Nukolis III
>Cc: Aeroelectric
>
>Gentlemen:
>
>Electronics International Inc. has been manufacturing aircraft instruments
>for over 20 years and all of our instruments meet and/or exceed the TSO C43a
>standards set by the FAA. The UBG-16 instrument has an operating range of
>7.5 to 30 volts and a 3/10 amp draw.
>
>As in a great number of modern instruments and radios, we are using a fairly
>sophisticated power supply to drive the gas plasma display and the circuit
>boards. Since the aviation industry has not adopted the auto industry
>technique of isolating instruments and accessories from the starting circuit
>during an engine start, there is a possibility of voltage spikes in excess
>of 200 volts through the main bus during the engine start sequence. During
>the start sequence, approximately 100-300 amps is required by the starter.
>This current produces a significantly large magnetic field. When the field
>collapses, a series of voltage pulses (or ringing) will occur on the bus. A
>low battery or an engine that is hard to start can aggravate the situation,
>which is markedly different for each aircraft.
Is this a condition which is not addressed by the testing
recommendations in DO-160?
> Over 40 years ago, the
>automotive industry adopted a starter switch that turns off all electrical
>instruments as the key is turned to the start position. The aircraft
>industry adopted the "Radio Bus" or "Avionics Bus" that allows all
>electrical equipment not required during the start sequence to be turned off
>or otherwise isolated. This is the reason for the "pampered avionics bus"
>that is required by Garmin, King, Apollo, STEC, ARNAV, UPS and virtually all
>manufactures of aviation instruments.
Required or recommended?
>The "perfectly normal" operating
>condition in a single engine aircraft is well within the UBG-16 operating
>range, but the starting sequence can cause problems for most sophisticated
>electronic instruments.
I was at Cessna when the avionics master switch was born. This was
in the days of 30v germanium power transistors just finding their
way into the radios of the time. They were indeed fragile
devices. This was before DO-160 came along to guide
us in designing electronics that would withstand
any normal operation of the airplane's electrical system.
Since that time, DO-160 has been through several revisions.
It has been expanded to the extent that we're now advised as to how
to stand off effects of lightning strokes to the airframe.
>Electronics International Inc. manufactures over 40 different instruments.
>The UBG-16 is the most complex of the product line and the only one that we
>recommend be isolated from the starting sequence.
>Note: If you are operating any sophisticated electrical equipment in your
>aircraft, you need to have a bus that is able to be isolated.
Please define "sophisticated". Without a doubt I can design
some relatively simple circuits that would be vulnerable to
the stresses of ordinary operation . . . how many and what
kind of parts must be combined before the circuit becomes sophisticated?
> You can
>simply connect an appropriate switch between the main bus and the breakers
>that drive the selected equipment to allow that equipment to be turned of
>during engine start.
>
>We certainly feel that we are a capable supplier and that there are not any
>shortcomings in the design or fabrication of any of our instruments. If you
>feel that we could improve in one area or another, please feel free to make
>specific constructive suggestions.
Can you identify the magnitude, duration and energy content
of the stress that is antagonistic to your products?
May I presume that you've confirmed that the starter
is indeed a source of dangerous stresses and that
the normal course of testing to DO-160 and/or TSO
fails to account for this stress?
If you can quantify the character of the stress for which
you're unable to guarantee operation, I can be of assistance
in designing an interface suited to protection of
your product.
>Thank you,
>
>David Campbell
>Electronics International Inc.
>63296 Powell Butte Highway
>Bend, OR 97701
>Phone: (541) 318-6060
>Fax: (541) 318-7575
>Web: www.Buy-Ei.com
Your's truly,
Bob Nuckolls
Message 46
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| Subject: | Multiple GPS feeds |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve J Hurlbut" <sjhdcl@kingston.net>
Can a GPS antenna feed more than 1 GPS device?
Trutrak Flight Systems says no, Garmin says yes.
Which is it and anybody have experience doing this?
Specically I want to feed GPS signal to my Digitrak autopilot and GTX 327
transponder.
I have a GPS 35 receiver as recommended by Trutrak Flight Systems.
Steve
Rv7A
Wiring
Message 47
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| Subject: | Multiple GPS feeds |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
Steve, are you perhaps confusing the GPS antenna with the GPS unit's
various outputs? The 327 does not know what to do with the GPS antenna
or signals, but it does know what to do with the serial output of the
GPS device (turn the unit from standby to altitude squawk mode upon
reaching 40 knots, for example). I don't know about the Tru Trak stuff,
but the company folks certainly do. It obviously uses some sort of
signal from the GPS unit to fly a course.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 291 hours
www.rvforum.org MAY 31st, don't miss it!
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Steve J Hurlbut
> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 9:03 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Multiple GPS feeds
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve J Hurlbut"
> --> <sjhdcl@kingston.net>
>
> Can a GPS antenna feed more than 1 GPS device?
>
> Trutrak Flight Systems says no, Garmin says yes.
>
> Which is it and anybody have experience doing this?
>
> Specically I want to feed GPS signal to my Digitrak autopilot
> and GTX 327 transponder. I have a GPS 35 receiver as
> recommended by Trutrak Flight Systems.
>
> Steve
> Rv7A
> Wiring
>
>
> ==========
> Matronics Forums.
> ==========
> List members.
> ==========
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Landing/taxi light |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: j1j2h3@juno.com
Looks great, Bob. What is the part number for these?
Jim Hasper - RV-7 just starting empennage (on hold pending move to
Tennessee)
Do not archive
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
(snip)
I'd work really hard to get
this lamp installed in my leading edges:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/4352.JPG
It's short, halogen, dual filament and 55w. One of these
critters on each wing gives you hi-landing/lo-taxi lighting
and four (count 'em) FOUR filaments putting light out the
front.
Given that these run for YEARS on automobiles without pre-warming
or inrush limiting, they should last the lifetime of most
airplanes.
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joel Harding <cajole76@ispwest.com>
Bob,
I asked him why it was necessary to isolate the analyzer, and he
indicated they'd had some units blow a chip during start.
Step # 3, having E I step up to their responsibilities would be my
choice out of the three you offered. I'll be interested to see what
kind of response you get.
Thanks for your assistance.
Joel Harding
On Thursday, April 3, 2003, at 08:27 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 10:43 PM 4/2/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joel Harding
>> <cajole76@ispwest.com>
>>
>> I was talking to a rep from E. I. about hooking up my engine analyzer
>> a
>> couple of days ago, and he mentioned that it should be isolated from
>> the starter circuit during start.
>> This may be similar to the discussion on protecting avionics from the
>> starter circuit, but could I get some suggestions on how best to
>> achieve this?
>> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Ask him why. Odds are (1) he hasn't the foggiest notion as
> to the physical requirements of the product and is simply
> regurgitating 40 years of dogma or (2) is admitting his
> product can't survive a perfectly normal operating condition
> in a single engine airplane.
>
> Your choices are few and simple. (1) put a separately switched
> and pampered "avionics bus" in your airplane to accommodate
> the inability of modern product to cope with simple reality,
> (2) choose alternative products wherein the manufacturers
> have done their homework (3) or get E.I. to step up to their
> responsibility to the aviation community and put real facts
> out on the table.
>
> It sure gets wearisome to hear of manufacturers of supposedly
> modern products still disseminating this stuff. I'm thinking
> about publishing a list of manufacturers on my website who
> are unwilling/unable to join the ranks of truly capable
> suppliers. Perhaps E.I. should be at the top of the list.
>
> I've forwarded a copy of this to E.I. Lets see if someone
> there can explain what appears to be a confessed shortcoming
> in the design and fabrication of their products.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
Message 50
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
> If the tech was using a ramp tester to read your encoder, then
> he would have been able to detect ANY output power. Was the
> reply light reacting to the ramp tester?
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Thanks for the reply Bob. The tech was using a ramp tester to read the
blind encoder output and we couldn't get any reading of power, or altitude,
at all. As I recall, the reply light was not reacting to the ramp tester.
He had just finished my other plane so we know the ramp test unit was
working ok. We had 12.5 volts feeding the system so that should not have
caused any problem. What I want to do here is exhaust all the trouble
shooting options available to me before I take the xpnder in to have it
bench checked. It is a "yellow tagged" unit...KT 76A. The encoder is a
Ameri-King AK-350 which is new. I bought the encoder from one of the
"Coast" avionics outfits and they did the plug wiring for me. Do you have
any more ideas for me.
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic-tach |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 10:53 PM 4/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "lonnwood" <lonnwood@msn.com>
> >
> >At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
> >often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
> >automotive tach
> >to monitor it.
>
> There are a number of approaches to measure speed
> but I'll suggest that if you're wanting to provide
> a presentation to the operator to manually adjust
> feed rates, monitoring current is more appropriate.
> I suspect the motor is a 3-phase induction device.
> You can put a current transformer over one of the
> three phases and display the resulting current on
> a meter at the operating position.
> After a little observation of current vs. stall
> tendencies, the operator will quickly learn how
> much load can be put on the saw without pushing
> it over the hump and onto the back side of it's
> speed/torque curve.
>
> Bob . . .
This method of measuring motor current as outlined by Bob is vastly superior to
using a tach for
what you are doing. By knowing what the full load current of the motor is then
adjusting the feed to
cause the motor to draw that amount (or slightly higher) current you can run the
system at close to
maximum production. If you monitor RPM then you don't know if you are utilizing
the full potential
of the motor. Depending on the motor type it may slow noticeably, long before reaching
max
horsepower, or conversely may be severely overloaded before slowing appreciably.
(read short life,
out of production for replacement etc.) By monitoring current you can be sure
you are using the
motor to its design maximum without overload. I did exactly this on my metal lathe
and it's amazing
how much more production you can achieve when you know exactly how far to load
it.
--
Bob McC
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" <rickf@cableone.net>
Hi Bob,
I'm a little unsure now if my wiring diagram violates what is discussed
below? I'm using diagram Z-11 modified to include dual electronic ignition,
fuel injection pump, and dual batterys located in the rear.
The main battery bus has a hi-pressure pump (7A) and one electronic ignition
(15A) and the aux battery bus has the other electronic ignition (15A). All
three have toggle switches up front on the panel. Do these switches meet
your requirement of "pilot controlled disconnect in close proximity" or do
they need the relays shown in that hand drawn sketch at the website?
Also, my essential bus has 2 X 7A and 3 X 3A, all with switches (either
external or internal). Do I need some sort of solid state relays here
also. I'm just not sure what is meant by milliamp budgets, etc? I guess I
need a diagram.
Thanks, Rick Fogerson
RV-3 finish kit
Boise, ID
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect
> > . . . a 7A protected lead gets a local disconnect
> relay for the e-bus alternate feed that's burdened
> with big transmitter and/or perhaps gyros. This could
> be a 10A feeder. The point is that long, always hot
> wires protected at over 5A need pilot controlled
> disconnect in close proximity to the bus.
>
> . . . if you're fuel injected and need a hi-pressure
> squirter fused at 10A, it gets a relay too.
>
> >
> This is what I'd have to do to sell this or a
> similar system to the FAA . . . it has to do
> with crash safety. Always hot wires from the
> battery are either pilot controllable or
> limited to 5A or less. I've seen them allow
> breakers but fuses are MUCH faster and offer
> even greater safety.
>
> We've got a lot of builders who have built
> some pretty hefty e-busses . . . with bigger
> than 5A feeders for the alternate feed path.
> If it were my airplane, I'd use the local
> disconnect relay as shown for a budget of
> about 100 mA to keep the relay closed. Or
> better yet, a solid state relay with a 10 mA
> budget.
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
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