Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:14 AM - Re: dual power and ground wires (Alex Peterson)
2. 05:55 AM - Regulator/Rectifier for PM Alternator (DHPHKH@aol.com)
3. 06:26 AM - Re: dual power and ground wires (John Slade)
4. 06:53 AM - Re: 110V Ball switch (Tom Schiff)
5. 07:24 AM - Re: dual power and ground wires (BobsV35B@aol.com)
6. 07:49 AM - Re: dual power and ground wires (Jim Oke)
7. 08:08 AM - Re: dual power and ground wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:32 AM - Re: Master Switch (HCRV6@aol.com)
9. 10:04 AM - Re: dual power and ground wires (John Slade)
10. 10:52 AM - TruTrak Autopilot Install (Randy Pflanzer)
11. 10:55 AM - FADEC (rondefly)
12. 11:24 AM - Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Phil Birkelbach)
13. 11:47 AM - Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Alex Peterson)
14. 12:53 PM - Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Randy Pflanzer)
15. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Randy Pflanzer)
16. 01:52 PM - Reverse Polarity Switch (Rogers, Bob J.)
17. 02:33 PM - Re: Reverse Polarity Switch (RSwanson)
18. 02:40 PM - Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Shannon Knoepflein)
19. 02:42 PM - Re: Reverse Polarity Switch (Kevin Horton)
20. 02:45 PM - Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Shannon Knoepflein)
21. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Shannon Knoepflein)
22. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 03:38 PM - Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Phil Birkelbach)
24. 03:43 PM - Re: FADEC (William Slaughter)
25. 04:29 PM - Permenant Magnet Alternetor question (Sam Hoskins)
26. 05:17 PM - Re: Permenant Magnet Alternetor question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 05:20 PM - Re: dual power and ground wires (Rino)
28. 05:21 PM - Re: FADEC (rondefly)
29. 05:38 PM - Re: FADEC (Rino)
30. 06:29 PM - Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Shannon Knoepflein)
31. 06:57 PM - Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
32. 07:02 PM - Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
33. 07:03 PM - Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
34. 07:19 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 33 Msgs - 04/13/03 (Jim Bean)
35. 07:40 PM - Trutrak installation requirements (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
36. 08:55 PM - Re: dual power and ground wires (John Slade)
37. 08:56 PM - Re: FADEC (John Slade)
Message 1
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| Subject: | dual power and ground wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> >The instructions for my Icom A-200 say that I should run two 20awg
> >wires for the power and two for the ground. Why would I do
> that? John
> >Slade Cozy IV
>
> Yeah, the Microair guys are asking for that too. I wrote to them
> and asked for an explanation with no response yet. 20AWG is 10
> milliohms per foot. The average feeder from bus to radio
> is probably
> no more than 4' for 40 mohms total. A second lead in parallel is
> going to drop it to 20 . . . ????
>
> Beats me . . .
>
> Somebody might have some notions about "reliability" but if you
> have one wire come loose, how will you know that you've now
> reduced your wiring reliability by a factor of two?
>
> We wired a lot of radios with a single power supply and
> ground wire over the years. Maybe there's some heretofore
> ignored reason for doing it but nothing I can deduce.
> I'll ask around some more.
>
> I'll bet somebody did it, others noticed, everybody worried
> about not being hip with the latest good-thing-to-do; so another
> handful of floobydust has been stirred into the fertile
> ground of folklore.
Could it be that the wire size needed is too large for the connector
pins? I think that is what I concluded on my KY97A. Seems pretty dumb,
but IIRC, I immediately ran the two wires together into a larger wire
and on to the fuse. Might be a 28/14 volt thing. Seems like I recall
that the largest wire into the pin wasn't sized large enough for the
transmit current draw (although I would have no problems with the
transient load of transmitting, the wire wouldn't be properly
protected).
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 291 hours
www.rvforum.org
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
Message 2
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| Subject: | Regulator/Rectifier for PM Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DHPHKH@aol.com
Anybody know of a source for information on the workings of
regulator/rectifiers for permanent magnet alternators? The rectifier part
isn't too hard, but how do they regulate voltage? Apparently there are
several types.
Dan Horton
Message 3
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| Subject: | dual power and ground wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> Yeah, the Microair guys are asking for that too. I wrote to them
> and asked for an explanation with no response yet. 20AWG is 10
> milliohms per foot. The average feeder from bus to radio is probably
> no more than 4' for 40 mohms total. A second lead in parallel is
> going to drop it to 20 . . . ????
Thanks.
Actually I misstated. The instructions call for 2 * 18AWG.
John Slade
Message 4
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| Subject: | 110V Ball switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Schiff" <tomschiff@attbi.com>
Try Radio Shack. They have switches that are used for burglar alarms.
Might not have enough current carrying capacity so you may want to put
in a relay. They also have magnetic switches for the same purpose one of
them may also work.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TSaccio@aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 110V Ball switch
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: TSaccio@aol.com
I realize that this is off the beaten path but maybe some could help me.
I'm
looking for a 110 V ball switch that I could mount on a Bifold door.
It's
function would be to turn a light on and off in a closet by opening and
closing the door.
If you know where a switch like this could be found please let me know.
Already tried Mouser, Digi-key, MPJA and McMaster-Carr.
Thanks,
Tom Saccio
tsaccio@aol.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: dual power and ground wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/14/03 8:32:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
sladerj@bellsouth.net writes:
> > Yeah, the Microair guys are asking for that too. I wrote to them
> > and asked for an explanation with no response yet. 20AWG is 10
> > milliohms per foot. The average feeder from bus to radio is probably
> > no more than 4' for 40 mohms total. A second lead in parallel is
> > going to drop it to 20 . . . ????
> Thanks.
> Actually I misstated. The instructions call for 2 * 18AWG.
> John Slade
>
Good Morning John,
For What It's Worth, my Trimble 2000 Approach Plus calls for two power and
two ground pins. They are to be jumpered right at the pins. I assume that
is to allow maximum contact via the small leaf style pins. I have further
assumed they did that primarily because there are more pins in the connector
than are needed for the application. Could be that I have assumed wrong.
Anybody know for sure?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: dual power and ground wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
The explanation that I was given by the avionics shop that wired my KY-97A
was that a single connector "pin" (actually a PCB edge connector) could not
reliably carry the max current needed (presumably on transmit). The
schematic called for two wires going to two separate pins which then joined
internal to the radio, thus halving the effective current carried per pin
down to something more reasonable. (This would also provide a degree of
redundancy to the power supply - this was not stated as a reason though).
By this rationale, power per pin is the important factor not wire size.
Presumably a single heavier wire could be wired to a tee splice feeding the
two pins. Do the ICOM and Microair schematics use two power and ground pins
or two wires entering at the same pin? If the former, then perhaps the
"power per pin" rationale is being used by these two manufacturers as well.
Jim Oke
RV-6A (taxi tests)
Winnipeg, MB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: dual power and ground wires
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
<alexpeterson@usjet.net>
>
> > >The instructions for my Icom A-200 say that I should run two 20awg
> > >wires for the power and two for the ground. Why would I do
> > that? John
> > >Slade Cozy IV
> >
> > Yeah, the Microair guys are asking for that too. I wrote to them
> > and asked for an explanation with no response yet. 20AWG is 10
> > milliohms per foot. The average feeder from bus to radio
> > is probably
> > no more than 4' for 40 mohms total. A second lead in parallel is
> > going to drop it to 20 . . . ????
> >
> > Beats me . . .
> >
> > Somebody might have some notions about "reliability" but if you
> > have one wire come loose, how will you know that you've now
> > reduced your wiring reliability by a factor of two?
> >
> > We wired a lot of radios with a single power supply and
> > ground wire over the years. Maybe there's some heretofore
> > ignored reason for doing it but nothing I can deduce.
> > I'll ask around some more.
> >
> > I'll bet somebody did it, others noticed, everybody worried
> > about not being hip with the latest good-thing-to-do; so another
> > handful of floobydust has been stirred into the fertile
> > ground of folklore.
>
> Could it be that the wire size needed is too large for the connector
> pins? I think that is what I concluded on my KY97A. Seems pretty dumb,
> but IIRC, I immediately ran the two wires together into a larger wire
> and on to the fuse. Might be a 28/14 volt thing. Seems like I recall
> that the largest wire into the pin wasn't sized large enough for the
> transmit current draw (although I would have no problems with the
> transient load of transmitting, the wire wouldn't be properly
> protected).
>
> Alex Peterson
> Maple Grove, MN
> RV6-A N66AP 291 hours
> www.rvforum.org
> www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | dual power and ground wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:23 AM 4/14/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
>
> > Yeah, the Microair guys are asking for that too. I wrote to them
> > and asked for an explanation with no response yet. 20AWG is 10
> > milliohms per foot. The average feeder from bus to radio is probably
> > no more than 4' for 40 mohms total. A second lead in parallel is
> > going to drop it to 20 . . . ????
>Thanks.
>Actually I misstated. The instructions call for 2 * 18AWG.
Hmmmm . . . extraordinarily mystifying . . .
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Master Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
I think you have reversed pins 4 and 5, pin 4 should go to the voltage reg
and pin 5 should go to the main bus (fuse block in my case). At least mine
works correctly as wired this way.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, firewall forward
Message 9
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| Subject: | dual power and ground wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> By this rationale, power per pin is the important factor not wire size.
I see some sense in this argument, except that the instructions also have me
jumper ing four power pins together. (and 4 grounds) They say I can use the
same breaker, but that two pairs of 18awg should be run to the breaker.
Message 10
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| Subject: | TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
Both the installation guide and the operation manual for the TruTrak
autopilot indicates the need for a "Autopilot Master Switch". To quote
the instructions:
"Aircraft electrical systems can generate voltage transients during an
engine start, and like other avionics systems, the autopilot should not
be subjected unnecessarily to these conditions."
Given the recent discussion regarding this topic, I would rather not
install another switch in my panel and introduce another point of
failure in my electrical system. Has anyone flying a TruTrak system
installed theirs sans the switch?
I'm tempted to forego the switch but I also don't want to fry $7K of
electronics and find the warranty voided because I didn't follow the
instructions.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rondefly" <rondefly@pacbell.net>
Hi, I sent an email to FADEC asking about their ignition system for a 0-200
and they told me you have to buy the hole bird. How do you get the system by
itself?
Ron Triano
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
Here in Houston there was an airplane lost (or at least heavily damaged)
because the autopilot was on during takeoff. As soon as the wheels left the
ground the airplane went into a steep bank. It was a C-172 if I remember
right. Whether the autopilot was powered because of pilot error or
mechanical malfuction is still out for debate but I decided that I wanted to
make sure that during takeoff and landing that there was no power to the
autopilot. Regardless of it's ability to live with these mysterious
'voltage transients' I want the power OFF to the autopilot when I am close
to the ground.
This switch would be dedicated to the autopilot, not an 'Avionics Master.'
So it is not a single point of failure for anything other than the
autopilot. At least that is the way that I'm going to wire it up.
Just something else to think about.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Pflanzer" <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer
<F1Rocket@comcast.net>
>
> Both the installation guide and the operation manual for the TruTrak
> autopilot indicates the need for a "Autopilot Master Switch". To quote
> the instructions:
>
> "Aircraft electrical systems can generate voltage transients during an
> engine start, and like other avionics systems, the autopilot should not
> be subjected unnecessarily to these conditions."
>
> Given the recent discussion regarding this topic, I would rather not
> install another switch in my panel and introduce another point of
> failure in my electrical system. Has anyone flying a TruTrak system
> installed theirs sans the switch?
>
> I'm tempted to forego the switch but I also don't want to fry $7K of
> electronics and find the warranty voided because I didn't follow the
> instructions.
>
> Randy
> F1 Rocket
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
I agree - I put a separate disconnect switch for the A/P. Initially, I
made sure this was off during all low altitude ops, but haven't turned
it off for a long time now. I do, however, have an avionics master
switch. I have this switch mainly for laziness - I don't want to have
to wander around the panel turning stuff on after startup, and I don't
want the battery loaded with it during start. It isn't a single point
of failure, because I can feed the avionics bus with the essential bus
switch also.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 291 hours
www.rvforum.org
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
> -----Original
> This switch would be dedicated to the autopilot, not an
> 'Avionics Master.' So it is not a single point of failure for
> anything other than the autopilot. At least that is the way
> that I'm going to wire it up.
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
The way I read it, you want to power up the AP while on the ground so
it can find it's bearings and set itself. The AP is still disengaged
as noted by the "AP OFF" in the window. So even if I install a AP
Master switch, I would only turn it off when starting and then
immediately turn it on. Part of the checklist would include "Verify
autopilot disengaged".
I still don't see any value to the switch. Appreciate your comments
Phil. BTW, I love your web site. Nice job.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Birkelbach <phil@petrasoft.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach"
> <phil@petrasoft.net>
> Here in Houston there was an airplane lost (or at least heavily
> damaged)because the autopilot was on during takeoff. As soon as
> the wheels left the
> ground the airplane went into a steep bank. It was a C-172 if I
> rememberright. Whether the autopilot was powered because of pilot
> error or
> mechanical malfuction is still out for debate but I decided that I
> wanted to
> make sure that during takeoff and landing that there was no power
> to the
> autopilot. Regardless of it's ability to live with these mysterious
> 'voltage transients' I want the power OFF to the autopilot when I
> am close
> to the ground.
>
> This switch would be dedicated to the autopilot, not an 'Avionics
> Master.'So it is not a single point of failure for anything other
> than the
> autopilot. At least that is the way that I'm going to wire it up.
>
> Just something else to think about.
>
> Godspeed,
>
> Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
> RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
> http://www.myrv7.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randy Pflanzer" <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer
> <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
> >
> > Both the installation guide and the operation manual for the TruTrak
> > autopilot indicates the need for a "Autopilot Master Switch".
> To quote
> > the instructions:
> >
> > "Aircraft electrical systems can generate voltage transients
> during an
> > engine start, and like other avionics systems, the autopilot
> should not
> > be subjected unnecessarily to these conditions."
> >
> > Given the recent discussion regarding this topic, I would rather not
> > install another switch in my panel and introduce another point of
> > failure in my electrical system. Has anyone flying a TruTrak system
> > installed theirs sans the switch?
> >
> > I'm tempted to forego the switch but I also don't want to fry
> $7K of
> > electronics and find the warranty voided because I didn't follow the
> > instructions.
> >
> > Randy
> > F1 Rocket
> > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
> >
> >
>
>
> _-
>
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= - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> _-
>
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> _-
>
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
Regardless of which bus is providing power, how do you get around a
failed switch? I think that is the reason not to install the switch in
the first place. You just know that when it fails, you will be IFR in
the soup.
I agree about the convenience of an avionics master switch, but I
haven't yet decided on that one. Thanks for your thoughts Alex.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Peterson <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
> <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> I agree - I put a separate disconnect switch for the A/P.
> Initially, I
> made sure this was off during all low altitude ops, but haven't turned
> it off for a long time now. I do, however, have an avionics master
> switch. I have this switch mainly for laziness - I don't want to have
> to wander around the panel turning stuff on after startup, and I don't
> want the battery loaded with it during start. It isn't a single point
> of failure, because I can feed the avionics bus with the essential bus
> switch also.
>
> Alex Peterson
> Maple Grove, MN
> RV6-A N66AP 291 hours
> www.rvforum.org
> www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
>
>
> > -----Original
> > This switch would be dedicated to the autopilot, not an
> > 'Avionics Master.' So it is not a single point of failure for
> > anything other than the autopilot. At least that is the way
> > that I'm going to wire it up.
> >
>
>
> _-
>
======================================================================_-
= - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> _-
>
======================================================================_-
= !! NEWish !!
> _-
>
======================================================================_-
= List Related Information
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Reverse Polarity Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
I am planning to install an electric linear actuator to control my cowl flap
on the Mustang II that I am building. The actuator is just a motor-driven
tube that runs one direction (extends) when the positive and ground wires
are each connected to the specified attach poles on the motor, and runs the
opposite direction (retracts) when the wires and polarity are reversed. I
want to mount a switch on the instrument panel that will extend the actuator
when I move the switch to the down position and will retract the actuator
when I move the switch to the up position. The actuator has built in limit
switches to make it automatically stop when it gets to the end of its range
of motion.
Can you please tell me what kind of switch will cause the polarity of this
electric motor to be reversed and how it should be wired? A diagram would
be helpful.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Reverse Polarity Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RSwanson <rswan19@comcast.net>
You need a double throw double pole switch. The actuator leads go to the
center pins and the positive and negative go to the top and bottom pins.
You just need to jumper the power leads so they end up being on opposite
sides on the top and bottom. ie. X them with a positive and negative on
the top and bottom.
Hope this helps.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers@fdic.gov>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Reverse Polarity Switch
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rogers, Bob J."
<BRogers@FDIC.gov>
>
>
> I am planning to install an electric linear actuator to control my cowl
flap
> on the Mustang II that I am building. The actuator is just a
motor-driven
> tube that runs one direction (extends) when the positive and ground wires
> are each connected to the specified attach poles on the motor, and runs
the
> opposite direction (retracts) when the wires and polarity are reversed.
I
> want to mount a switch on the instrument panel that will extend the
actuator
> when I move the switch to the down position and will retract the actuator
> when I move the switch to the up position. The actuator has built in
limit
> switches to make it automatically stop when it gets to the end of its
range
> of motion.
>
> Can you please tell me what kind of switch will cause the polarity of
this
> electric motor to be reversed and how it should be wired? A diagram
would
> be helpful.
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
Not to argue against you or anything, as I totally agree. However, I'd
like to point out a nice feature of the TruTrak line of autopilots is
that the will disengage below a certain speed that you set. For
example, you can program it where it won't engage until you are at 90
knots. Anway, no big deal, just a nice feature the TruTrak offers. Too
bad we can't put real autopilots into a Cessna. I certainly know that
the junk JUNK Navomatic 400B in our C182RG that I fly would be better
left in the hanger than in the airplane :)
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil
Birkelbach
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach"
<phil@petrasoft.net>
Here in Houston there was an airplane lost (or at least heavily damaged)
because the autopilot was on during takeoff. As soon as the wheels left
the
ground the airplane went into a steep bank. It was a C-172 if I
remember
right. Whether the autopilot was powered because of pilot error or
mechanical malfuction is still out for debate but I decided that I
wanted to
make sure that during takeoff and landing that there was no power to the
autopilot. Regardless of it's ability to live with these mysterious
'voltage transients' I want the power OFF to the autopilot when I am
close
to the ground.
This switch would be dedicated to the autopilot, not an 'Avionics
Master.'
So it is not a single point of failure for anything other than the
autopilot. At least that is the way that I'm going to wire it up.
Just something else to think about.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Pflanzer" <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer
<F1Rocket@comcast.net>
>
> Both the installation guide and the operation manual for the TruTrak
> autopilot indicates the need for a "Autopilot Master Switch". To
quote
> the instructions:
>
> "Aircraft electrical systems can generate voltage transients during an
> engine start, and like other avionics systems, the autopilot should
not
> be subjected unnecessarily to these conditions."
>
> Given the recent discussion regarding this topic, I would rather not
> install another switch in my panel and introduce another point of
> failure in my electrical system. Has anyone flying a TruTrak system
> installed theirs sans the switch?
>
> I'm tempted to forego the switch but I also don't want to fry $7K of
> electronics and find the warranty voided because I didn't follow the
> instructions.
>
> Randy
> F1 Rocket
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Reverse Polarity Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
>
>
>I am planning to install an electric linear actuator to control my cowl flap
>on the Mustang II that I am building. The actuator is just a motor-driven
>tube that runs one direction (extends) when the positive and ground wires
>are each connected to the specified attach poles on the motor, and runs the
>opposite direction (retracts) when the wires and polarity are reversed. I
>want to mount a switch on the instrument panel that will extend the actuator
>when I move the switch to the down position and will retract the actuator
>when I move the switch to the up position. The actuator has built in limit
>switches to make it automatically stop when it gets to the end of its range
>of motion.
>
>Can you please tell me what kind of switch will cause the polarity of this
>electric motor to be reversed and how it should be wired? A diagram would
>be helpful.
This sounds exactly like what you would need to run an electric flap
system on RVs. You should be able to use the same sort of circuit.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/flaps.pdf
Another example, slightly harder to figure out:
http://rv8asite.homestead.com/flapswitch.html
Good luck,
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 20
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| Subject: | TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
Not to argue against you or anything, as I totally agree. However, I'd
like to point out a nice feature of the TruTrak line of autopilots is
that the will disengage below a certain speed that you set. For
example, you can program it where it won't engage until you are at 90
knots. Anway, no big deal, just a nice feature the TruTrak offers. Too
bad we can't put real autopilots into a Cessna. I certainly know that
the junk JUNK Navomatic 400B in our C182RG that I fly would be better
left in the hanger than in the airplane :)
BTW, I put a switch in that is a single point of failure for ONLY my
TruTrak autopilot. I can always get rid of the switch later by wiring
around it, but didn't want to struggle with trying to add it in later.
It's there, we'll see if I need it.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil
Birkelbach
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach"
<phil@petrasoft.net>
Here in Houston there was an airplane lost (or at least heavily damaged)
because the autopilot was on during takeoff. As soon as the wheels left
the
ground the airplane went into a steep bank. It was a C-172 if I
remember
right. Whether the autopilot was powered because of pilot error or
mechanical malfuction is still out for debate but I decided that I
wanted to
make sure that during takeoff and landing that there was no power to the
autopilot. Regardless of it's ability to live with these mysterious
'voltage transients' I want the power OFF to the autopilot when I am
close
to the ground.
This switch would be dedicated to the autopilot, not an 'Avionics
Master.'
So it is not a single point of failure for anything other than the
autopilot. At least that is the way that I'm going to wire it up.
Just something else to think about.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Pflanzer" <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer
<F1Rocket@comcast.net>
>
> Both the installation guide and the operation manual for the TruTrak
> autopilot indicates the need for a "Autopilot Master Switch". To
quote
> the instructions:
>
> "Aircraft electrical systems can generate voltage transients during an
> engine start, and like other avionics systems, the autopilot should
not
> be subjected unnecessarily to these conditions."
>
> Given the recent discussion regarding this topic, I would rather not
> install another switch in my panel and introduce another point of
> failure in my electrical system. Has anyone flying a TruTrak system
> installed theirs sans the switch?
>
> I'm tempted to forego the switch but I also don't want to fry $7K of
> electronics and find the warranty voided because I didn't follow the
> instructions.
>
> Randy
> F1 Rocket
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
As Bob typically says, if its something that is essential for flight, it
should be backed up. If you HAVE to have an autopilot when you are in
IFR, you should have an alternate source for power to it. (I don't HAVE
to have an AP...I'd like to have one, but I'd hate to depend on it...if
I ever find myself solely depending on an AP in while in IFR, I'd quit
flying IFR until I felt I could fly it myself) So, if you have to have
it, back its power source up.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann@kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Pflanzer
Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer
<F1Rocket@comcast.net>
Regardless of which bus is providing power, how do you get around a
failed switch? I think that is the reason not to install the switch in
the first place. You just know that when it fails, you will be IFR in
the soup.
I agree about the convenience of an avionics master switch, but I
haven't yet decided on that one. Thanks for your thoughts Alex.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Peterson <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
> <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> I agree - I put a separate disconnect switch for the A/P.
> Initially, I
> made sure this was off during all low altitude ops, but haven't turned
> it off for a long time now. I do, however, have an avionics master
> switch. I have this switch mainly for laziness - I don't want to have
> to wander around the panel turning stuff on after startup, and I don't
> want the battery loaded with it during start. It isn't a single point
> of failure, because I can feed the avionics bus with the essential bus
> switch also.
>
> Alex Peterson
> Maple Grove, MN
> RV6-A N66AP 291 hours
> www.rvforum.org
> www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
>
>
> > -----Original
> > This switch would be dedicated to the autopilot, not an
> > 'Avionics Master.' So it is not a single point of failure for
> > anything other than the autopilot. At least that is the way
> > that I'm going to wire it up.
> >
>
>
> _-
>
======================================================================_-
= - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> _-
>
======================================================================_-
= !! NEWish !!
> _-
>
======================================================================_-
= List Related Information
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:44 PM 4/14/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein"
><kycshann@kyol.net>
>
>As Bob typically says, if its something that is essential for flight, it
>should be backed up. If you HAVE to have an autopilot when you are in
>IFR, you should have an alternate source for power to it. (I don't HAVE
>to have an AP...I'd like to have one, but I'd hate to depend on it...if
>I ever find myself solely depending on an AP in while in IFR, I'd quit
>flying IFR until I felt I could fly it myself) So, if you have to have
>it, back its power source up.
. . . but is the single switch really the issue? Count all
the parts in the autopilot system, all of the moving parts,
electrical parts AND the power sources. Given that you're
going to maintain the battery well, it's probably the single
most reliable component in the system . . . if you have the
slightest worry about switches, you can always replace it
ever so often with another switch that has been "screened"
but what about all the goodies in the autopilot itself?
When I say "backup", I mean backup for the entire system,
not just one component of the system. Folks tend to worry
most about electrical power sources going down 'cause
that's what they read about most. YOUR airplane isn't
going to suffer a power failure . . .
The hand-held radios independently back up panel-mounts.
#1 com on main bus is backed up by #2 com on aux bus.
Right ignition backs up left ignition. In every case where
you have a valid backup . . . it's totally independent
of the "essential" system or it's not a backup.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
I have not gotten the controller yet for my TTAP so I didn't know it had to
be turned on on the ground. I don't like to think that this thing can't get
it's bearings while airborne. There may be a delay but you really need to
be able to reboot the thing in the air don't you?
If this AP is built like I think it is then the 'AP Off' in the window
simply means that the software inside the AP has the power turned off to the
Servo and is not actively trying to control anything. By trusting this you
are relying on that AP to not 'lose it's mind' for one reason or another.
As long as that autopilot has power and the microprocessor is processing
there is a chance that a malfunction (read software bug) could cause it to
go haywire. Those buttons on the front don't look like toggle switches and
I imagine that they are simply inputs to the microprocessor and as such they
can do strange things. I'll admit that the odds of this happening is
probably very close to zero. Chances are that you'll lose your engine
several times before this AP will fail in this way. But if it does fail I
want to be able to kill it, and I would prefer that it be dead anytime I am
close to the ground.
What I may do is use one of Bob K's 3 position progressive transfer
switches. Down=Off, Middle=Controller Only, Up= Servo and Controller. I
have not consulted with Tru-Trak about this (so I could be completely wrong)
and I am not trying to argue with anyone. I just want to give you something
else to think about. I write software for a living and if I had written the
code in that AP I'd still want a way to turn power to it off. If nothing
else a circuit breaker that I could pull.
In the grand scheme of things if you choose not to install that switch then
you will probably never regret it, and I may very well regret installing it,
who knows. When I get to that point I'll give Tru-Trak a call and get the
skinny on the inards of the unit, and then I'll be able to make a more
intelligent decision.
Oh and BTW thanks for the kind words on the website. I am glad you enjoy
it.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Pflanzer" <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer
<F1Rocket@comcast.net>
>
> The way I read it, you want to power up the AP while on the ground so
> it can find it's bearings and set itself. The AP is still disengaged
> as noted by the "AP OFF" in the window. So even if I install a AP
> Master switch, I would only turn it off when starting and then
> immediately turn it on. Part of the checklist would include "Verify
> autopilot disengaged".
>
> I still don't see any value to the switch. Appreciate your comments
> Phil. BTW, I love your web site. Nice job.
>
> Randy
> F1 Rocket
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Phil Birkelbach <phil@petrasoft.net>
> Date: Monday, April 14, 2003 1:24 pm
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach"
> > <phil@petrasoft.net>
> > Here in Houston there was an airplane lost (or at least heavily
> > damaged)because the autopilot was on during takeoff. As soon as
> > the wheels left the
> > ground the airplane went into a steep bank. It was a C-172 if I
> > rememberright. Whether the autopilot was powered because of pilot
> > error or
> > mechanical malfuction is still out for debate but I decided that I
> > wanted to
> > make sure that during takeoff and landing that there was no power
> > to the
> > autopilot. Regardless of it's ability to live with these mysterious
> > 'voltage transients' I want the power OFF to the autopilot when I
> > am close
> > to the ground.
> >
> > This switch would be dedicated to the autopilot, not an 'Avionics
> > Master.'So it is not a single point of failure for anything other
> > than the
> > autopilot. At least that is the way that I'm going to wire it up.
> >
> > Just something else to think about.
> >
> > Godspeed,
> >
> > Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
> > RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
> > http://www.myrv7.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Randy Pflanzer" <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
> >
> >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer
> > <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
> > >
> > > Both the installation guide and the operation manual for the TruTrak
> > > autopilot indicates the need for a "Autopilot Master Switch".
> > To quote
> > > the instructions:
> > >
> > > "Aircraft electrical systems can generate voltage transients
> > during an
> > > engine start, and like other avionics systems, the autopilot
> > should not
> > > be subjected unnecessarily to these conditions."
> > >
> > > Given the recent discussion regarding this topic, I would rather not
> > > install another switch in my panel and introduce another point of
> > > failure in my electrical system. Has anyone flying a TruTrak system
> > > installed theirs sans the switch?
> > >
> > > I'm tempted to forego the switch but I also don't want to fry
> > $7K of
> > > electronics and find the warranty voided because I didn't follow the
> > > instructions.
> > >
> > > Randy
> > > F1 Rocket
> > > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _-
> >
> ======================================================================_-
> = - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> > _-
> >
> ======================================================================_-
> = !! NEWish !!
> > _-
> >
> ======================================================================_-
> = List Related Information
> > _-
> > ======================================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 24
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Slaughter" <willslau@alumni.rice.edu>
If we're talking about the Aerosance FADEC unit, you don't. The acronym is
Full Authority Digital Engine Controller, and by definition includes the
fuel injection and ignition systems integrated under the control of the
engine management computer(s), just like late model cars. For a standalone
ignition system, Lightspeed is a good, but by no means the only bet.
William Slaughter
RV-8 IOF-360 FADEC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
rondefly
Subject: AeroElectric-List: FADEC
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rondefly" <rondefly@pacbell.net>
Hi, I sent an email to FADEC asking about their ignition system for a 0-200
and they told me you have to buy the hole bird. How do you get the system by
itself?
Ron Triano
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Permenant Magnet Alternetor question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins@globaleyes.net>
I'm working on my load analysis.
How much juice does the feed to the S704-1 relay use, in conjunction with
the B&C 200G? I see it's protected by a 5A breaker.
Thanks.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Permenant Magnet Alternetor question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:29 PM 4/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins"
><shoskins@globaleyes.net>
>
>I'm working on my load analysis.
>
>How much juice does the feed to the S704-1 relay use, in conjunction with
>the B&C 200G? I see it's protected by a 5A breaker.
0.1 amps. You could use smaller breaker but they tend
to be more expensive and 5A is fine.
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: dual power and ground wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rino <lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca>
I once had a computer that gave me problems because the power pin on the
connector would become real hot, create resistance and hence a voltage
drop. I connected two other unused pins in parallel to solve the
problem.
Rino
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 4/14/03 8:32:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
> sladerj@bellsouth.net writes:
>
> > > Yeah, the Microair guys are asking for that too. I wrote to them
> > > and asked for an explanation with no response yet. 20AWG is 10
> > > milliohms per foot. The average feeder from bus to radio is probably
> > > no more than 4' for 40 mohms total. A second lead in parallel is
> > > going to drop it to 20 . . . ????
> > Thanks.
> > Actually I misstated. The instructions call for 2 * 18AWG.
> > John Slade
> >
>
> Good Morning John,
>
> For What It's Worth, my Trimble 2000 Approach Plus calls for two power and
> two ground pins. They are to be jumpered right at the pins. I assume that
> is to allow maximum contact via the small leaf style pins. I have further
> assumed they did that primarily because there are more pins in the connector
> than are needed for the application. Could be that I have assumed wrong.
> Anybody know for sure?
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
Message 28
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rondefly" <rondefly@pacbell.net>
Thanks William, I am thinking to use one of the mags along with electronic.
Ron Triano Quicker one Q-200, 90% Done with 90% to go
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
William Slaughter
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: FADEC
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Slaughter"
<willslau@alumni.rice.edu>
If we're talking about the Aerosance FADEC unit, you don't. The acronym is
Full Authority Digital Engine Controller, and by definition includes the
fuel injection and ignition systems integrated under the control of the
engine management computer(s), just like late model cars. For a standalone
ignition system, Lightspeed is a good, but by no means the only bet.
William Slaughter
RV-8 IOF-360 FADEC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
rondefly
Subject: AeroElectric-List: FADEC
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rondefly" <rondefly@pacbell.net>
Hi, I sent an email to FADEC asking about their ignition system for a 0-200
and they told me you have to buy the hole bird. How do you get the system by
itself?
Ron Triano
Message 29
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rino <lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca>
Real World Solutions makes a redundant controller specially for aircraft
use.
Rino
William Slaughter wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Slaughter" <willslau@alumni.rice.edu>
>
> If we're talking about the Aerosance FADEC unit, you don't. The acronym is
> Full Authority Digital Engine Controller, and by definition includes the
> fuel injection and ignition systems integrated under the control of the
> engine management computer(s), just like late model cars. For a standalone
> ignition system, Lightspeed is a good, but by no means the only bet.
>
> William Slaughter
> RV-8 IOF-360 FADEC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> rondefly
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: FADEC
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rondefly" <rondefly@pacbell.net>
>
> Hi, I sent an email to FADEC asking about their ignition system for a 0-200
> and they told me you have to buy the hole bird. How do you get the system by
> itself?
>
> Ron Triano
>
--
Message 30
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| Subject: | TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann@kyol.net>
It can get its bearing in the air, you just have to fly straight and
level for about 10 seconds. What you mention is not an issue when it
comes to calibration.
You are correct in your observations about the buttons on the front.
Hit the ON-OFF and it just goes into AP OFF mode, so you are spot on
about it just being logic to the uprocessor. A switch like you mention
might not be a bad idea. A simple ON-OFF toggle, after reading Bob's
post about the reliability of them, is probably a good bet at a minimum.
I have one in my panel that I can tinker with if you have any further
questions. I'm sure Jim Y. can answer any and all though.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil
Birkelbach
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach"
<phil@petrasoft.net>
I have not gotten the controller yet for my TTAP so I didn't know it had
to
be turned on on the ground. I don't like to think that this thing can't
get
it's bearings while airborne. There may be a delay but you really need
to
be able to reboot the thing in the air don't you?
If this AP is built like I think it is then the 'AP Off' in the window
simply means that the software inside the AP has the power turned off to
the
Servo and is not actively trying to control anything. By trusting this
you
are relying on that AP to not 'lose it's mind' for one reason or
another.
As long as that autopilot has power and the microprocessor is processing
there is a chance that a malfunction (read software bug) could cause it
to
go haywire. Those buttons on the front don't look like toggle switches
and
I imagine that they are simply inputs to the microprocessor and as such
they
can do strange things. I'll admit that the odds of this happening is
probably very close to zero. Chances are that you'll lose your engine
several times before this AP will fail in this way. But if it does fail
I
want to be able to kill it, and I would prefer that it be dead anytime I
am
close to the ground.
What I may do is use one of Bob K's 3 position progressive transfer
switches. Down=Off, Middle=Controller Only, Up= Servo and Controller.
I
have not consulted with Tru-Trak about this (so I could be completely
wrong)
and I am not trying to argue with anyone. I just want to give you
something
else to think about. I write software for a living and if I had written
the
code in that AP I'd still want a way to turn power to it off. If
nothing
else a circuit breaker that I could pull.
In the grand scheme of things if you choose not to install that switch
then
you will probably never regret it, and I may very well regret installing
it,
who knows. When I get to that point I'll give Tru-Trak a call and get
the
skinny on the inards of the unit, and then I'll be able to make a more
intelligent decision.
Oh and BTW thanks for the kind words on the website. I am glad you
enjoy
it.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Pflanzer" <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer
<F1Rocket@comcast.net>
>
> The way I read it, you want to power up the AP while on the ground so
> it can find it's bearings and set itself. The AP is still disengaged
> as noted by the "AP OFF" in the window. So even if I install a AP
> Master switch, I would only turn it off when starting and then
> immediately turn it on. Part of the checklist would include "Verify
> autopilot disengaged".
>
> I still don't see any value to the switch. Appreciate your comments
> Phil. BTW, I love your web site. Nice job.
>
> Randy
> F1 Rocket
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Phil Birkelbach <phil@petrasoft.net>
> Date: Monday, April 14, 2003 1:24 pm
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach"
> > <phil@petrasoft.net>
> > Here in Houston there was an airplane lost (or at least heavily
> > damaged)because the autopilot was on during takeoff. As soon as
> > the wheels left the
> > ground the airplane went into a steep bank. It was a C-172 if I
> > rememberright. Whether the autopilot was powered because of pilot
> > error or
> > mechanical malfuction is still out for debate but I decided that I
> > wanted to
> > make sure that during takeoff and landing that there was no power
> > to the
> > autopilot. Regardless of it's ability to live with these mysterious
> > 'voltage transients' I want the power OFF to the autopilot when I
> > am close
> > to the ground.
> >
> > This switch would be dedicated to the autopilot, not an 'Avionics
> > Master.'So it is not a single point of failure for anything other
> > than the
> > autopilot. At least that is the way that I'm going to wire it up.
> >
> > Just something else to think about.
> >
> > Godspeed,
> >
> > Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
> > RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
> > http://www.myrv7.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Randy Pflanzer" <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak Autopilot Install
> >
> >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer
> > <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
> > >
> > > Both the installation guide and the operation manual for the
TruTrak
> > > autopilot indicates the need for a "Autopilot Master Switch".
> > To quote
> > > the instructions:
> > >
> > > "Aircraft electrical systems can generate voltage transients
> > during an
> > > engine start, and like other avionics systems, the autopilot
> > should not
> > > be subjected unnecessarily to these conditions."
> > >
> > > Given the recent discussion regarding this topic, I would rather
not
> > > install another switch in my panel and introduce another point of
> > > failure in my electrical system. Has anyone flying a TruTrak
system
> > > installed theirs sans the switch?
> > >
> > > I'm tempted to forego the switch but I also don't want to fry
> > $7K of
> > > electronics and find the warranty voided because I didn't follow
the
> > > instructions.
> > >
> > > Randy
> > > F1 Rocket
> > > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _-
> >
>
======================================================================_-
> = - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> > _-
> >
>
======================================================================_-
> = !! NEWish !!
> > _-
> >
>
======================================================================_-
> = List Related Information
> > _-
> >
======================================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:38 PM 4/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach"
><phil@petrasoft.net>
>
>I have not gotten the controller yet for my TTAP so I didn't know it had to
>be turned on on the ground. I don't like to think that this thing can't get
>it's bearings while airborne. There may be a delay but you really need to
>be able to reboot the thing in the air don't you?
>
>If this AP is built like I think it is then the 'AP Off' in the window
>simply means that the software inside the AP has the power turned off to the
>Servo and is not actively trying to control anything. By trusting this you
>are relying on that AP to not 'lose it's mind' for one reason or another.
>As long as that autopilot has power and the microprocessor is processing
>there is a chance that a malfunction (read software bug) could cause it to
>go haywire. Those buttons on the front don't look like toggle switches and
>I imagine that they are simply inputs to the microprocessor and as such they
>can do strange things. I'll admit that the odds of this happening is
>probably very close to zero. Chances are that you'll lose your engine
>several times before this AP will fail in this way. But if it does fail I
>want to be able to kill it, and I would prefer that it be dead anytime I am
>close to the ground.
We've spoken several times on the list about autopilot disconnect
switches. On the big fellers, this is a button on the wheel that
unlatches a relay to cut power to all electrically driven flight
surfaces.
As part of the pre-flight, all trims and a/p are checked. A/P
is checked OFF before takeoff. Depending on the a/p, one could
consider running servo power through the stick disconnect system
so that the rest of a/p electronics can stay active (like
for the NavAid which is a turn coordinator even when it's
not flying the airplane.
This is not so much an issue of having to fly the airplane
after a/p or trim failure as it is about making sure you
can turn things OFF when they mis-behave.
Bob . . .
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:24 PM 4/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach"
><phil@petrasoft.net>
>
>Here in Houston there was an airplane lost (or at least heavily damaged)
>because the autopilot was on during takeoff. As soon as the wheels left the
>ground the airplane went into a steep bank. It was a C-172 if I remember
>right. Whether the autopilot was powered because of pilot error or
>mechanical malfuction is still out for debate but I decided that I wanted to
>make sure that during takeoff and landing that there was no power to the
>autopilot. Regardless of it's ability to live with these mysterious
>'voltage transients' I want the power OFF to the autopilot when I am close
>to the ground.
Which is the way it should be. The pre-landing checklist on a bizjet
call for a/p off before entering the pattern if you're VFR. Only the
yaw damper stays on until right before touchdown.
I'm suspicious of the pilot's story . . . if that's what he is saying.
In any a/p equipped airplane, there is no way one could do a takeoff
without feeling the a/p's steering effort in the wheel long before
he reaches flying speed.
>This switch would be dedicated to the autopilot, not an 'Avionics Master.'
>So it is not a single point of failure for anything other than the
>autopilot. At least that is the way that I'm going to wire it up.
>
>Just something else to think about.
Even when the a/p is engaged, slip clutches allow pilot to
over-ride the limited servo authority. If anyone is blaming
the a/p for an airplane's demise, I think there is much we
don't know about the truth of the story.
Bob . . .
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Autopilot Install |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:49 PM 4/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer <F1Rocket@comcast.net>
>
>Both the installation guide and the operation manual for the TruTrak
>autopilot indicates the need for a "Autopilot Master Switch". To quote
>the instructions:
>
>"Aircraft electrical systems can generate voltage transients during an
>engine start, and like other avionics systems, the autopilot should not
>be subjected unnecessarily to these conditions."
Hmmm . . . perhaps I need to write to Mr. Y and see what
his take is on nefarious spikes . . .
I think I'll do that.
Bob . . .
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 33 Msgs - 04/13/03 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Bean <jim-bean@att.net>
AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote:
> Time: 11:37:03 AM PST US
> From: Jerry2DT@aol.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Redundant Ignitions
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
>
> Geoff & Bob...
>
> I am planning on an XP-360 for my RV6a and my thinking is that for the best
> redundancy I will go with Electronic Ignition on one side and a magneto on
> the other. The engine will then run with no electric power to it at all. It
> "seems" to me that this is every bit as safe as dual E.I.'s/dual batteries
> and/or alternators, and will be lighter overall. Is this idea screwy somehow?
> If so, please have at me... :)
>
That's my plan.
Jim Bean
RV-8
Engine Stuff
> Jerry Cochran
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Trutrak installation requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Good morning Mr. Younkin,
By way of introduction, I am currently an electronics engineer with Raytheon
in Wichita, KS. I've been working in aviation electrical systems and
avionics off and on since 1961. About 1986, I started a small publishing
and consulting activity to support the owner built and maintained aircraft
(OBAM) market. A fair representation of this activity can be viewed at
your pleasure on our website at http://www.aeroelectric.com
I was working at Cessna in the late 60's when the avionics master
switch was born. Low voltage germanium power transistor were
showing up in the audio and power supply stages of Cessna's
infamous 300 Series transceivers. After a number of instances
of popped power transistors, someone decided that "spikes" from
the starter were killing the radios . . . and the avionics master
switch seemed to be a rational approach to mitigating this hazard.
In years since, DO-160 was generated (and revised 4 or 5 times)
to guide us in the task of making things electronic live in airplanes.
Over the years I've tested many products to the current requirements
of DO-160 with, I believe, reasonable success.
In nearly 30 years, I'm unaware of any failures to my designs (or
that of anyone else) attributable to nefarious spikes
that produced electrical stresses beyond the bounds described
by DO-160 testing. I've never found it necessary to tell a customer
that my products should be pampered in any way when they were
integrating the device into their airframe. Indeed, most customers
would have balked at the notion.
In retrospect, I now believe that low voltage during cranking
allowed power supply transistors to come out of saturation and
force them into a second-breakdown failure mode.
From time to time, I observe that suppliers to both the
certified and OBAM community admonish installers to power their
product from an "avionics bus" or other means intended to protect
the product from conditions that exist during engine cranking.
I've looked many times at the power quality of various aircraft
and to date, I've not been able to capture a real, killer-transient
in the wild. In my experience, the biggest noise problems on the bus
are usually offered by accessories other than starters. Alternators
are fitted with a fixed 5% pk-pk ripple. Power inverters, a/c compressor
drive motors and even turn coordinators have from time to time, presented
bigger problems for power quality than do starters.
A builder on the AeroElectric-List quoted from your installation
manual as follows:
"Aircraft electrical systems can generate voltage transients during an
engine start, and like other avionics systems, the autopilot should not
be subjected unnecessarily to these conditions."
I am writing to ask if you have either (1) identified some transient
condition that resides outside the envelope described by recommended
DO-160 qualification testing or (2) have put a product on the market
that is not intended to operate within the DO-160 envelope? If the
first condition is true, have you quantified the potential hazard(s)
with respect to energy content and waveshape? Further, how might
these hazards fall outside the capability of modern system design for
protective power conditioning?
If I've missed some fundamental aspect of behavior in the
DC power generation and distribution for airplanes, I'd be
pleased if you would enlighten me.
By the way, Gene Brown, formerly of EDO-Aire and presently with
Electromech Technologies say's "hello"! He had some interesting
stories to tell about you over lunch last Friday!
Kindest regards,
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 36
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| Subject: | dual power and ground wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> I connected two other unused pins in parallel to solve the problem.
Yep. That seems to be what they're doing. They've got me jumping opposing
pins, 4 for ground, 4 for power, then taking one lead (they say two) from
the jumped connectors to the breaker / fuse / ground bus.
Message 37
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> Real World Solutions makes a redundant controller specially for aircraft
> use.
I have it. It has two computers, but they share some components (power
supply?) and there's only one feed. For true redundancy you'd need two of
these, but at $895 each that aint so bad.
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