---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/21/03: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:37 AM - RG battery heads-up (J Davis) 2. 04:55 AM - Re: RG battery heads-up (William Slaughter) 3. 06:35 AM - Re: RG battery heads-up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:35 AM - Fw: Problem with strobe help (capacitors going bad on shelf) (Cy Galley) 5. 06:52 AM - handheld radio batteries (cary rhodes) 6. 07:00 AM - Re: Breaker for Internally Regulated ND (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 07:02 AM - Re: Power budget (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 07:14 AM - Re: Fw: PM-OV and E-bus switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 07:15 AM - Re: Power budget (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 07:24 AM - Re: Problem with Whelen Stobe - Help (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 07:29 AM - Re: handheld radio batteries (Scott Bilinski) 12. 07:33 AM - Re: PIDG Crimper (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 07:44 AM - Re: Power budget (James E. Clark) 14. 07:50 AM - Re: handheld radio batteries (BobsV35B@aol.com) 15. 08:00 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 04/20/03 (John H. Wiegenstein) 16. 08:11 AM - How "no Mode C" leads to "no CD" :-) ... (James E. Clark) 17. 08:14 AM - Re: handheld radio batteries (Scot Stambaugh) 18. 08:29 AM - Re: handheld radio batteries (Finn Lassen) 19. 08:55 AM - landing and taxi lights (Carlos Sa) 20. 10:08 AM - Re: landing and taxi lights (Matt Prather) 21. 11:35 AM - Re: handheld radio batteries (cary rhodes) 22. 11:39 AM - Pilot Controlled Battery Disconnect - help Bob (Rick Fogerson) 23. 11:46 AM - Auto pilot switch (Rick Fogerson) 24. 12:59 PM - Re: Auto pilot switch (Randy Pflanzer) 25. 01:37 PM - Fw: Problem with strobe help (capacitors going bad on shelf) (Cy Galley) 26. 02:19 PM - Electronics Course Materials (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 27. 02:38 PM - Re: handheld radio batteries (Paul Wilson) 28. 03:41 PM - Re: Must strobe feed wires be shielded? (Sam Hoskins) 29. 05:23 PM - Re: RG battery heads-up (J Davis) 30. 06:12 PM - Re: RG battery heads-up (Dan Checkoway) 31. 06:56 PM - Re: Re: handheld radio batteries (Finn Lassen) 32. 07:29 PM - Re: RG battery heads-up (Jim Jewell) 33. 07:51 PM - Re: handheld radio batteries (Richard Scott) 34. 07:54 PM - Re: RG battery heads-up (Dan Checkoway) 35. 07:55 PM - Re: Re: more on handheld radio batteries (Richard Scott) 36. 08:32 PM - FW: Auto pilot switch (Ed Holyoke) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:08 AM PST US From: J Davis Subject: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: J Davis I had a failure of a nearly new Panasonic LC-RD1217P battery today, and since it is such a commonly used battery in the homebuilt aviation community, I thought a warning to the list would be in order. As my wife and I prepare to attend a fly-in breakfast yesterday, my plane failed to show any sign of electrical life, I removed the cowling to find that the positive terminal had sheared completely off, flush with the case. The battery was new, having only about 1 hour flying time on it. I can only suspect that vibration transmitted through the rather stiff cable had flexed the lead post to the point of failure. I had put a couple hundred hours on the previous RG battery w/o problems, but this failure has convinced me to switch back to the old wet style motorcycle battery, which is *much* beefier and robust, and designed for vehicular use, unlike the RG style, which was designed for stationary life inside a UPS. -- Regards, J. flying: Zenair STOL CH701/582 C-IGGY , > 250 hrs. building: Sonex #325, engine probably Jabiru 3300/6/120hp | J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp_sci) | UNIX consultant | | SysMgr, research programmer | email: jd@uwo.ca | | Lawson Health Research Inst.| voice: (519) 646 6100 x64166 | | London, Ontario | fax: (519) 646 6385 | | Canada | lriweb.sjhc.london.on.ca/~jd | What are you if you buy a new Microsoft product? A gamma tester. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:41 AM PST US From: "William Slaughter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Slaughter" Before switching to a wet cell battery, consider the Odessey RG batteries, which are also designed for vehicular use. You can even get one with a metal armoured case if you wish. They can be obtained online at very reasonable prices. William Slaughter RV-8 still riveting -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of J Davis Subject: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: J Davis I had a failure of a nearly new Panasonic LC-RD1217P battery today, and since it is such a commonly used battery in the homebuilt aviation community, I thought a warning to the list would be in order. As my wife and I prepare to attend a fly-in breakfast yesterday, my plane failed to show any sign of electrical life, I removed the cowling to find that the positive terminal had sheared completely off, flush with the case. The battery was new, having only about 1 hour flying time on it. I can only suspect that vibration transmitted through the rather stiff cable had flexed the lead post to the point of failure. I had put a couple hundred hours on the previous RG battery w/o problems, but this failure has convinced me to switch back to the old wet style motorcycle battery, which is *much* beefier and robust, and designed for vehicular use, unlike the RG style, which was designed for stationary life inside a UPS. -- Regards, J. flying: Zenair STOL CH701/582 C-IGGY , > 250 hrs. building: Sonex #325, engine probably Jabiru 3300/6/120hp | J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp_sci) | UNIX consultant | | SysMgr, research programmer | email: jd@uwo.ca | | Lawson Health Research Inst.| voice: (519) 646 6100 x64166 | | London, Ontario | fax: (519) 646 6385 | | Canada | lriweb.sjhc.london.on.ca/~jd | What are you if you buy a new Microsoft product? A gamma tester. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:29 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:35 AM 4/21/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: J Davis > >I had a failure of a nearly new Panasonic LC-RD1217P battery today, >and since it is such a commonly used battery in the homebuilt >aviation community, I thought a warning to the list would be in >order. > >As my wife and I prepare to attend a fly-in breakfast yesterday, my >plane failed to show any sign of electrical life, I removed the >cowling to find that the positive terminal had sheared completely >off, flush with the case. The battery was new, having only about 1 >hour flying time on it. I can only suspect that vibration >transmitted through the rather stiff cable had flexed the lead post >to the point of failure. I had put a couple hundred hours on the >previous RG battery w/o problems, but this failure has convinced me >to switch back to the old wet style motorcycle battery, which is >*much* beefier and robust, and designed for vehicular use, unlike >the RG style, which was designed for stationary life inside a UPS. If a part substitution is being considered to relieve a diagnosed failure mode, why not substitute a less stiff battery jumper? Welding cable makes a nice, very flexible alternative to classic "aircraft" wire. I'm skeptical that this post broke off purely from the stresses of one-hour of service. I suspect it was damaged in some way before it got installed on the airplane. There are lots of batteries with a variety of post designs out there . . . find a heftier post if you don't want to change the wire. This particular series of batteries has been in service in airplanes for about ten years and have accumulated tens of thousands of hours of service with their posts intact. Going back to a wet battery just to get a more robust post is like going back to a PC-XT just 'cause you had trouble with the USB port on your new Byte-Thrasher 2000 . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:29 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Problem with strobe help (capacitors going bad on shelf) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Official Responce from Whelan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Frazier" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with strobe help (capacitors going bad on shelf) > The new capacitors do not deteriorate from lack of use anymore. We have not > removed the information from our installation and service manual. We feel > there are numerous old units still on the shelf. > > Regards > > Fred Frazier > At 07:26 PM 4/18/03 -0500, you wrote: > >I reported this "problem" 2 years ago in the Experimenter when some one said > >their service rep said the re-formation of the "electrolytic" film wasn't > >necessary anymore. BUT when I went to the web site, It still has the > >following warning on their web site...' > > > >"WARNING: Strobe light power supplies are meant to be used, not > >to remain in an inactive state. Use them at all times, this will improve > >their proper functioning. Any strobe light power supply that has been > >out of service for a long period of time is subject to failure because > >the electrolytic condenser loses the polarity formation. A strobe light > >power supply not having been used for one year or longer is vulnerable > >to failure. > >If this is the case, it is recommended to start operating the system > >on a voltage that is reduced by 25 percent for 10 to 15 minutes before > >putting the power supply into normal service. This will prevent overheating > >of the condenser while they reform. If the power supply, after > >a long period of non use, is operated at full voltage immediately, there > >is an excellent possibility that the condenser will become overheated." > > > >So now which do you believe? > > > >Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > >Editor, EAA Safety Programs > >cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > >Always looking for articles for the Experimenter > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Canyon" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 5:10 PM > >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with strobe help (capacitors going > >bad on shelf) > > > > > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon > >> > >> David Carter wrote: > >> >I bought Whelen tail strobe at Oshkosh 2001. Instructions had the bit > >> >about > >> >deterioration if not used for long period. I called tech supt and he > >> >said > >> >that was valid for older units but not valid now as they have changed the > >> >capacitors inside. No longer a worry. No longer need periodic "use" in > >> >shop on shop DC power supply to keep alive. > >> --- > >> Thanks for the update, David. That's much more in line with what I > >> would have expected. I bet they learned that electrolytics was not the > >> best choice for their application somewhere along the way. :-) > >> > >> Steve ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:03 AM PST US From: cary rhodes Subject: AeroElectric-List: handheld radio batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: cary rhodes Gentlemen I am hoping some of the electrical types might know, because I am electrically challenged. My icom handheld needs high amperage batteries. I had converted the batt pack from the nicad to AA size. But it seems the nicadd had a much larger available current. Does someone make a high output Alkaline AA battery?? What about Lithium batteries? I do know Duracell's copper tops won't work? thanks cary rhodes http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Breaker for Internally Regulated ND Alternator? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:12 AM 4/20/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > > >I have the Van's 60A internally regulated ND alternator, > >If there is no way to > > kill the field current (once the alternator is up and > > running) because of the internal regulator, then is there any > > reason to have a pullable CB on the 12V input to the > > alternator, as opposed to just a fuse? TIA > > > > John H. Wiegenstein > > Hansville, WA > > RV-6 S/N 23961 - N727JW (reserved) > >A couple things - with no failure present the alternator will be >instantly killed if one turns off the "field" juice. I put it in quotes >because it is not really field, but rather, sends the juice to the >internal components that regulate the alternator field (or perhaps, >simply tell the regulator to wake up). Let's call it the control input >for lack of a better definition. Some internally regulated alternators use the input control lead to tell the alternator that the engine is running and it's time to go to work. This signal comes from the engine's control computer. Some alternators will not shut down when the control signal is removed. It's only used to delay having the alternator load the engine until after the engine starts. >John, perhaps you have a master type switch, with three positions? One >for master off, one for master on, and one for master/alternator on. If >you have this, then you do not need a pullable breaker on the alternator >control input, assuming it is needed at all. The breaker was included on the drawings for one reason only, to accommodate crowbar ov protection that not only removes the control signal from the alternator but removes excitation power from a b-lead disconnect contactor to physically unhook a mis-behaving alternator from the rest of the ship's system. >There is controversy about whether the internally regulated ND >alternators have a failure mode in which, in spite of killing the >control input, the voltage still runs away. In other words, is the >juice used by the internal regulator entirely supplied by the control, >or is some supplied entirely internally, effectively shunting the >control input during a failure? It is surprisingly difficult to find >someone who is actually knowledgeable on ND alternators, although one I >found at an alternator shop somewhere in FL was certain there is no >internal shunting possibility in the design. I'm skeptical without our >own data. I don't know where any controversy might exist. I know for a fact that the regulators pulled from brand new ND alternators received in at B&C have a pull-down transistor that is wired to the (-) side of the field, the (+) side of the field is hardwired to the b-lead. If that transistor or any circuitry driving it fails to make the transistor switch on hard, then the alternator gets full field and takes off for the moon. This is hard fact folks . . . it's happened many times. See . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spike.pdf Page 4, column 1 paragraph 5 where I wrote about one such incident . . >Bob N. and I discussed this a few years ago, and we agreed that one >would need to measure the control current to see if it seemed to map >alternator output. If it does, it could indicate that all the actual >field juice is coming in through the control line. If this is the case, >an effective overvoltage protection could be had by simply putting Bob's >crowbar on the control line, without having a contactor on the main >alternator output line. I'm negligent in doing the experiment of >measuring control input current - too busy flying. I'll try to rig up >something to get this done. To date, I've not seen a single internally regulated alternator regulator schematic wherein field excitation current comes in through the control wire. When I visited the Wells aftermarket automotive parts factory Fon du Lac, WI years ago, they showed me schematics for a bunch of their products . . . ALL designs took field power directly from the B-lead internal to the alternator. You can use a fuse there if you wish and the ov protection system will still take the alternator off line . . . but you won't have the option of trying a reset for a nuisance trip. With hundreds of ov modules sold, I've had perhaps a dozen cases where something in the system will trip the ov module where in fact, no ov condition exists. Changes to the ov module have reduced this but I'm not ready to call it a 100% victory. It it were MY airplane, the alternator control lead would get a breaker on the panel and a b-lead contactor in the ov protection system. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Power budget --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:36 PM 4/18/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" > > >Dick's posting has some very IMPORTANT data to make a note of. > > > >I have found that our "35 amp" alternator (not B&C) *probably* does 15-17 >amps at "lower than cruise" RPMs. So ... when approaching the airport in >late afternoon, if I turn on both landing lights, along with strobe and nav, >and announce my position, by the time I am on final (if not before), I have >a BIG RED "low voltage" light staring me in the face. I can literally see >the voltmeter easing toward the lower numbers. > >So make sure that you get an alternator that really does put out the >amperage you need without you having to be turning, say 2500 RPM. > >James What pulley are you running on the alternator. B&C leaves the stock, small pulley on their alternators to (1) preclude the situation you describe and (2) improved cowl clearance. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:29 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: Fw: AeroElectric-List: PM-OV and E-bus switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:37 PM 4/17/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" > > >Geof, > >I missed the response to your e-mail below. If you got one from Bob, and if >you saved it, could you fwd it to me? Thanks. I've just studied the Z- >diagrams in Aeroelectric Connection and re-read several chapters - I'm >jumping in with both feet to become "an aircraft electrical systems designer >(homebuilt)". > >I liked your 2nd question, about effect of having e-bus alternate feed >switch on at same time battery switch was on. If it is true that there is >"no effect", then there is a significant implication: The e-bus alternate >feed switch could be left "on" all the time, in anticipation of a serious >malfunction requiring killing the "battery switch and main bus". That would >reduce the pilot actions from 2 to 1 - "turn off battery switch". You'd >eliminate "then turn on essential bus alternate feed". (I was going to keep >this "private" but because this system is being discussed on the list, I'll >send it to the list, also.) The e-bus alternate feed switch has no more likelihood of being left on than does the master switch. If the switch is in a row with all other DC power system controls as shown in . . . http://216.55.140.222/temp/Switches.pdf . . . then it is unlikely to be "forgotten". Had a builder concerned about forgetting to shut things off . . . I suggested that he wire a two-position oil pressure switch to operate the hour-meter when the switch was pressurized and a "OIL PRESS WARN" light when the switch was not pressurized. Taking power for the light from the e-bus and adding a small buzzer in parallel with the light gave him a visible and audible warning if any DC power switches were ON after engine shutdown. Lights and buzzers not withstanding, the concerns over an alternate feed switch being left on should have no more weight than concerns for leaving ANY switch on after parking your airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Power budget --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:32 PM 4/17/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" > >My RV-4 has the following electrical power consumers: > >landing lights (big old GE bulbs) >nav lights >GPS/com >Nav/com >transponder >3 unit strobes >single cockpit flood led >cockpit lighting dimmer >VM1000 engine monitor >intercom >boost pump > >When all of this is operating (not transmitting) the amp load on the VM1000 >is stable at 27 amps. >I use a B&C 35 amp alternator. With the above load and 700 rpm the voltage >drops from the normal 14.3 to 13.9. >At any rpm above idle the voltage returns to 14.3. Normal day VFR cruise >load is about 15 amps. Good data Dick, thanks! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with Whelen Stobe - Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:54 AM 4/17/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > >In my installation manual, it's written: > >"WARNING: Strobe light power supplies are meant to be >used, not to remain in an inactive state. Any strobe >light power supply that has been out of service for a >long period of time is subject to failure because the >electrolytic condenser loses its polarity formation. >A strobe light power supply not having been used for >one year or longer is vulnerable to failure." > >And the more interesting part: > >"If this is the case, it is recommended to start >operating the system on a voltage that is reduced by >25% for 10 to 15 minutes before putting the power >supply into normal service. This will preven t >overheating of the condenser while they reform. If >the power supply, after a long period of non use, is >operated at full voltage immediately, there is an >excellent possibiliyt that the condenser will become >overheated." Unless your strobe system has been sitting on the shelf for about 30 years, don't worry about it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:52 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: handheld radio batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Try NiMH Nickel Metal Hydried batteries. They are better than nicads. At 06:51 AM 4/21/03 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: cary rhodes > >Gentlemen > >I am hoping some of the electrical types might know, >because I am electrically challenged. > >My icom handheld needs high amperage batteries. I had >converted the batt pack from the nicad to AA size. > > >But it seems the nicadd had a much larger available >current. > >Does someone make a high output Alkaline AA battery?? > >What about Lithium batteries? > >I do know Duracell's copper tops won't work? > >thanks > >cary rhodes > > >http://search.yahoo.com > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:41 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PIDG Crimper --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:35 AM 4/16/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > >Bob, >I have a question about the PIDG Crimper from B&C. >I have an AMP ratchet crimper I got at Sun & Fun. It's jaws are about 1/8 >wide. Will I get the same results with this, or do I need to spend the $40? >Regards, >John Slade Hard to tell without seeing the tool you bought. AMP makes several hundred different crimp tools. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:29 AM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Power budget --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" We are using the "stock", "35 amp" alternator from Van's. No modifications or changes etc. The alternator works so I am not complaining about that. I wanted others to be aware that there are **SOME** alternators that might not produce as much current as they expect during lower than cruise situations. What would be ***REALLY*** helpful is if we could get a chart built that showed tha ACTUAL output of these alternators at 1000, 1500, 2000 and 2500 RPM. Bob, I think you may have referenced values for the B&C units some time back. And as I recall, it pointed out that in certain scenarios, the 40 amp B&C (yes it cost a lot more) has a LOT more output than the Van's offered 35 amp unit. I think it generates close to 40 amps at about 1000 or no more than 1500 RPM. ??? Is this correct??? Just looking at the amperage and the pricing one could easily do a load analysis, make the best value purchase and come up short on the juice. Many RV flyers are probably as my partner is, less prone to night flying. In this case the 35 amp unit is not a problem. But if you want to be able to run the lights longer than a few minutes, one must make sure you do the numbers based on the above. By the way, I am accustomed to leaving my landing light on during ALL flight regimes (see and be seen for the cost of a light bulb every 5-10 years). James > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert > L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 10:02 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Power budget > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, > III" > > At 02:36 PM 4/18/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" > > > > > >Dick's posting has some very IMPORTANT data to make a note of. > > > > > > > >I have found that our "35 amp" alternator (not B&C) *probably* does 15-17 > >amps at "lower than cruise" RPMs. So ... when approaching the airport in > >late afternoon, if I turn on both landing lights, along with > strobe and nav, > >and announce my position, by the time I am on final (if not > before), I have > >a BIG RED "low voltage" light staring me in the face. I can literally see > >the voltmeter easing toward the lower numbers. > > > >So make sure that you get an alternator that really does put out the > >amperage you need without you having to be turning, say 2500 RPM. > > > >James > > What pulley are you running on the alternator. B&C leaves > the stock, small pulley on their alternators to (1) preclude > the situation you describe and (2) improved cowl clearance. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:06 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: handheld radio batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 4/21/03 8:52:40 AM Central Daylight Time, rhodeseng@yahoo.com writes: > I am hoping some of the electrical types might know, > because I am electrically challenged. > > My icom handheld needs high amperage batteries. I had > converted the batt pack from the nicad to AA size. > Good Morning Cary, I am certainly not an electrical type, but I do have an ICOM handheld radio. I have both the NiCad pack and the adapter to use AA cells. I have not noticed any difference in performance between the two types of power. What are the symptoms you are experiencing? I tend to use the NiCad when I am using the radio on the ground or at airshows. When in flight, I am generally carrying the radio to be used for emergency purposes. I then use the AA battery pack and carry a supply of spares. I have always felt that my best chance of making contact after a forced landing would be by monitoring the IFR frequencies in use in the area and contacting aircraft in flight over that area. That's why I like to be able to have something that I can replace rather than something that needs to be recharged for emergency use. You mention a problem with copper tops. I often use those. Do you think I am losing capability by doing so? If the NiCad provides more transmitting power, I guess I could start carrying a second charged NiCad as a back up. The alkalines are nice. I carry a twenty pack of fresh ones. I also carry a GPS and flashlights that use the same AA cells. I thought I was being quite conservative! What am I missing? Happy skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:50 AM PST US From: "John H. Wiegenstein" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 04/20/03 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John H. Wiegenstein" Alex, thanks for the update - I'm glad to see that smarter people than I are also uncertain about just what role that 12V control/feed wire plays with the ND unit. One advantage of using Bob's switching and wiring concepts is that I can rig it one way now, and if a better idea comes up it would be fairly easy to change to a better arrangement if we get some new data on just how this animal behaves. At this point I have a simple 2 position master switch, but could easily change that to the 3 position style as you suggested. Since the 12V control line would be fed from a fused source on the fuseblock, the "CB" function of a pullable CB would seem to be redundant, and simply being able to switch power to the 12V control line would accomplish the same end goal - though to what benefit we apparently are still not sure! :-) John H. Wiegenstein Hansville, WA RV-6 #23961 - N727JW (reserved) - Time: 08:13:49 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Breaker for Internally Regulated ND Alternator? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" There is controversy about whether the internally regulated ND alternators have a failure mode in which, in spite of killing the control input, the voltage still runs away. In other words, is the juice used by the internal regulator entirely supplied by the control, or is some supplied entirely internally, effectively shunting the control input during a failure? It is surprisingly difficult to find someone who is actually knowledgeable on ND alternators, although one I found at an alternator shop somewhere in FL was certain there is no internal shunting possibility in the design. I'm skeptical without our own data. Bob N. and I discussed this a few years ago, and we agreed that one would need to measure the control current to see if it seemed to map alternator output. If it does, it could indicate that all the actual field juice is coming in through the control line. If this is the case, an effective overvoltage protection could be had by simply putting Bob's crowbar on the control line, without having a contactor on the main alternator output line. I'm negligent in doing the experiment of measuring control input current - too busy flying. I'll try to rig up something to get this done. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 291 hours www.rvforum.org MAY 31st, Be There! www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:42 AM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: AeroElectric-List: How "no Mode C" leads to "no CD" :-) ... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" GlacierJust a "heads up" for those of you with "in-dash" automotive CD players in your planes. < NOT a safety matter ... just how you can ruin the player> Long-winded rambling, skip to the end for the punch line. -------------------------- For some time we had been getting a lot of "intermittent Mode C/Mode C inoperative/do you have Mode C in that thing?" comments from ATC. At times it seemed to work and at other times it did not. Soooo, I finally decided that it was time for me fix the problem since I had installed it and *thought* I did everything correctly. Swapped the KT-76A for a KT-76C (it gives a pressure altitude readout). Verified that sometimes there was indeed a failure BUT not tied to the transponder and not sure when how the failure occurred. Returned the KT76A to service. Took out KT76A *and* took out encoder and had them both bench tested at local avionics shop. Both tested OK. Checked antenna wiring and ground plane etc. Looked fine. "Buzzed out" all connections from Transponder tray to end of encoder cable. All buzzed out. Hmmm .... Mike the avionics manager mentioned that *some* times, the little pins in the transponder tray can get bent down just a little bit and this would cause the problem. Looked for that .... all looked well. Finally took the AIRPLANE to be "big avionics shop" and hooked it all up to the "expensive test gear" for a full blown IFR check etc (or whatever it was). Wanted to check the SYSTEM for working or failure at every altitude (I think we did 500 foot increments). From this we determined that two lines were NOT getting their signals through. Looed again at the transponder tray (inside) under the very bright lights of their shop and a very bright flashlight and lo' and behold (!) those very pins had an ever so slight bend (OK one was a bit more obvious). Bent the pins straight and no more problems from ATC. Now for the CD connection .... During the above exercise at the avionics shop, I hooked up one of their variable power supplies to the plane to make sure we were at 14.2 volts. Well when I set it to 14.2, it was drawing "X" amps and seemed to be stable. As we were taking reading, I got a "high voltage" warning light and looked over and we were at about 15 volts. Got out of plane and adjusted the supply down (it had charged the battery and the voltage had crept up). Went back and finished all the tests. After this episode, the CD no longer worked (Sony something). After much checking and testing on the bench, found that it is not going to work. Seems like the 15 or so volts on at least one of the power input lines must have fried something and it just would not go. It had to have been the "clock"/"keep alive" input as it is tied directly to the battery via a fuse. And if this line does not have voltage, the rest of the player does not work. Replaced the unit and we now have "tunes" again. MORAL OF THE STORY ... If you need to connect a supply that *might* exceed, say, 14.5 volts, REMOVE THE FUSE from the clok input of your CD player (or any other "delicate" equipment. James "If you don't make dust, you eat dust" ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:09 AM PST US From: Scot Stambaugh Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: handheld radio batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scot Stambaugh Here is a great source for the NiMH: http://www.thomas-distributing.com/gp150aahc-u4.htm I converted my Icom A-22 and my A-21 to the AA packs and used NiMH for Thomas Bros. My battery life went up 9 times. I have a sophisticated charger that can accurately measure battery capacity and I compared the old NiCad pack to the new setup and measured better than 9 times improvement. Although I must say that the old pack was in pretty bad shape. It would only last about 2 hours with no transmitting. The new pack lasted 20+ hours just listening to it in the garage while I worked on the plane. scot At 07:29 AM 4/21/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > >Try NiMH Nickel Metal Hydried batteries. They are better than nicads. > > >At 06:51 AM 4/21/03 -0700, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: cary rhodes > > > >Gentlemen > > > >I am hoping some of the electrical types might know, > >because I am electrically challenged. > > > >My icom handheld needs high amperage batteries. I had > >converted the batt pack from the nicad to AA size. > > > > > >But it seems the nicadd had a much larger available > >current. > > > >Does someone make a high output Alkaline AA battery?? > > > >What about Lithium batteries? > > > >I do know Duracell's copper tops won't work? > > > >thanks > > > >cary rhodes > > > > > >http://search.yahoo.com > > > > > > >Scott Bilinski >Eng dept 305 >Phone (858) 657-2536 >Pager (858) 502-5190 > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:14 AM PST US From: Finn Lassen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: handheld radio batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Finn Lassen Bob, I don't think you're missing anything. In fact, the nominal voltage for alkalines is 1.5V vs. 1.25V for NiCads. So, the alkalines should give higher output, if anything. You're doing it exactly right, only use NiCads for frequent/constant usage and alkalines for emergency/backup (long shelf life, and higher capacity too). Wouldn't be surprised if the original poster had reversed one of the batteries when he inserted them. The Icom A22 Sport, runs on alkalines (6, I think). Finn BobsV35B@aol.com wrot >You mention a problem with copper tops. I often use those. Do you think I >am losing capability by doing so? If the NiCad provides more transmitting >power, I guess I could start carrying a second charged NiCad as a back up. > >The alkalines are nice. I carry a twenty pack of fresh ones. I also carry a >GPS and flashlights that use the same AA cells. > >I thought I was being quite conservative! What am I missing? > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:47 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: AeroElectric-List: landing and taxi lights --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hello, listers I'm starting to build the wings for my CH601, and intend to have landing and taxi lights built in. I'd appreciate recommendations on the choice of lights (criteria or specific types/brands/models), as there are many choices out there. Thanks in advance Carlos Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: landing and taxi lights From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Something halogen, automotive, and which was fitted to a factory vehicle would be my recommendations. This will make it bright, cheap, and available. You should be able to find many in the 35-100W range. Its probably not critical which model you use, as long as it fits (physically). I think I'd pick models that were used as the 'low beam' (outer light position) because most of these have double filaments - one is usually 35W and low beam, and the other is 65W and high beam. Wire them both up and you have a little redundancy. If you look through the archive, there have been several part numbers suggested that look good to me. Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Hello, listers > > > I'm starting to build the wings for my CH601, and intend to have landing > and taxi lights built in. > I'd appreciate recommendations on the choice of lights (criteria or > specific types/brands/models), as there are many choices out there. > > Thanks in advance > > Carlos > > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:27 AM PST US From: cary rhodes Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: handheld radio batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: cary rhodes I am sure none of the batteries were upsidedown. The unit uses 10 AA's. The problem is that the Alkaline AA's just don't last very long because of the large current draw on the transmit function. They hold up real well so long as you don't want to talk. there is a little over a 1 amp current draw as per the ICOM technicial. its difficult to get that much current from normal AA's cary r http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:34 AM PST US From: "Rick Fogerson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pilot Controlled Battery Disconnect - help Bob --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" Hi Bob, Let me try this again with my questions below. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect > > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 11:59 PM > > > Hi Bob, > > I'm a little unsure now if my wiring diagram violates what is discussed > > below? I'm using diagram Z-11 modified to include dual electronic > ignition and dual batterys (batterys located in the rear!!!!). > > The main battery bus has a hi-pressure pump (7A) and one electronic > ignition (15A) and the aux battery bus has the other electronic ignition (15A). > The pump and E.I.'s were to be controlled directly with toggle switches up front on the panel. Do these switches meet your requirement of "pilot controlled disconnect in close proximity" or do they need relays now and what kind and where? > > > > > > Also, my essential bus has 2 X 7A and 3 X 3A, all with switches (either > > external or internal). Do I need some sort of solid state relays here > > also. I'm just not sure what is meant by milliamp budgets, etc? I guess > I need a diagram. > > > > Thanks, Rick Fogerson > > RV-3 finish kit > > Boise, ID > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect > > > > > > > > . . . a 7A protected lead gets a local disconnect > > > relay for the e-bus alternate feed that's burdened > > > with big transmitter and/or perhaps gyros. This could > > > be a 10A feeder. The point is that long, always hot > > > wires protected at over 5A need pilot controlled > > > disconnect in close proximity to the bus. > > > > > > . . . if you're fuel injected and need a hi-pressure > > > squirter fused at 10A, it gets a relay too. > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'd have to do to sell this or a > > > similar system to the FAA . . . it has to do > > > with crash safety. Always hot wires from the > > > battery are either pilot controllable or > > > limited to 5A or less. I've seen them allow > > > breakers but fuses are MUCH faster and offer > > > even greater safety. > > > > > > We've got a lot of builders who have built > > > some pretty hefty e-busses . . . with bigger > > > than 5A feeders for the alternate feed path. > > > If it were my airplane, I'd use the local > > > disconnect relay as shown for a budget of > > > about 100 mA to keep the relay closed. Or > > > better yet, a solid state relay with a 10 mA > > > budget. > > > Bob . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:54 AM PST US From: "Rick Fogerson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Auto pilot switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" Hi Bob, Concerning an on/off switch for power to the autopilot servo. I got from a recent discussion on the list that it would be good to disconnect power to the servo during takeoff and landing and not rely on the controller. With a toggle switch on the panel, shouldn't I be able to directly cut off power without a relay or do you think this is even necessary? Thanks, Rick Fogerson RV3 finish kit Boise, ID ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:19 PM PST US From: Randy Pflanzer Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto pilot switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Randy Pflanzer Rick, I think the recent discussion was regarding the use of a switch to cut off power to the controller, not the servos. In the TruTrak installation, the servos get their power from the controller, not directly from the bus. If you so choose, you can wire the switch directly between the bus and the controller. No relay is required. After reading all the discourse on the topic, I've decided to go ahead and install one primarily because I'm getting the impression that computer CPU-type products are more sensitive to smaller spikes. Since I'm not an expert and because the installation guide calls for a switch, I've decided to be safe rather than sorry. Randy F1 Rocket http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Fogerson Subject: AeroElectric-List: Auto pilot switch > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" > > Hi Bob, > Concerning an on/off switch for power to the autopilot servo. I > got from a recent discussion on the list > that it would be good to disconnect power to the servo during > takeoff and landing and not rely on the > controller. With a toggle switch on the panel, shouldn't I be > able to directly cut off power without a > relay or do you think this is even necessary? > Thanks, Rick Fogerson > RV3 finish kit > Boise, ID > > > _- > ======================================================================_- = - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > _- > ======================================================================_- = !! NEWish !! > _- > ======================================================================_- = List Related Information > _- > ====================================================================== > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:14 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Problem with strobe help (capacitors going bad on shelf) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > Cy Galley > We can only speak for our products. We have been using the newer capacitors > since 1992. Anything prior to 1992 could be a potential problem. The > problem being that the capacitors could dry out and be difficult to reseat. > New capacitors could be installed and the power supply would operate > properly. > The newer capacitors were designed specifically for us. > > Regards > > Fred Frazier > Kind Regards, > Fred Frazier ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Frazier" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with strobe help (capacitors going bad on shelf) > At 08:36 AM 4/21/03 -0500, you wrote: > >So how do you know if you have an "old" unit which can be destroyed just by > >firing it up or a safe new unit? > > > >Cy Galley > >Editor, EAA Safety Programs > >cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Fred Frazier" > >To: "Cy Galley" > >Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:24 AM > >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with strobe help (capacitors going > >bad on shelf) > > > > > >> At 07:26 PM 4/18/03 -0500, you wrote: > >> >I reported this "problem" 2 years ago in the Experimenter when some one > >said > >> >their service rep said the re-formation of the "electrolytic" film wasn't > >> >necessary anymore. BUT when I went to the web site, It still has the > >> >following warning on their web site...' > >> > > >> >"WARNING: Strobe light power supplies are meant to be used, not > >> >to remain in an inactive state. Use them at all times, this will improve > >> >their proper functioning. Any strobe light power supply that has been > >> >out of service for a long period of time is subject to failure because > >> >the electrolytic condenser loses the polarity formation. A strobe light > >> >power supply not having been used for one year or longer is vulnerable > >> >to failure. > >> >If this is the case, it is recommended to start operating the system > >> >on a voltage that is reduced by 25 percent for 10 to 15 minutes before > >> >putting the power supply into normal service. This will prevent > >overheating > >> >of the condenser while they reform. If the power supply, after > >> >a long period of non use, is operated at full voltage immediately, there > >> >is an excellent possibility that the condenser will become overheated." > >> > > >> >So now which do you believe? > >> > > >> >Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > >> >Editor, EAA Safety Programs > >> >cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > >> >Always looking for articles for the Experimenter > >> > > >> >----- Original Message ----- > >> >From: "Canyon" > >> >To: > >> >Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 5:10 PM > >> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with strobe help (capacitors > >going > >> >bad on shelf) > >> > > >> > > >> >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon > > > >> >> > >> >> David Carter wrote: > >> >> >I bought Whelen tail strobe at Oshkosh 2001. Instructions had the bit > >> >> >about > >> >> >deterioration if not used for long period. I called tech supt and he > >> >> >said > >> >> >that was valid for older units but not valid now as they have changed > >the > >> >> >capacitors inside. No longer a worry. No longer need periodic "use" > >in > >> >> >shop on shop DC power supply to keep alive. > >> >> --- > >> >> Thanks for the update, David. That's much more in line with what I > >> >> would have expected. I bet they learned that electrolytics was not the > >> >> best choice for their application somewhere along the way. :-) > >> >> > >> >> Steve ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:22 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronics Course Materials --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" From time to time I've been asked to recommend some texts for electronics neophytes. I taught for a time at Great Lakes. I was impressed with the quality of Navy electronics schools and really enjoyed my tenure there . . . now if it had just paid enough to survive on. None the less, I've discovered that the Navy has keep up the good work on instructional materials for electronics and other courses. If any of you would like to have your own personal copies of an excellent set of texts . . . right-click on the following series of links and tell your browser where to store these files on your hard drive. Start with the first one and happy learning . . . https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14173.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14174.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14175.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14176.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14177.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14178.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14179.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14180.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14181.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14182.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14183.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14184.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14185.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14186.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14187.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14188.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14189.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14190.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14191.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14192.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14193.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14194.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14195.pdf https://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/fullbook/14196.pdf I may add these to my CD_Rom offering as well. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:41 PM PST US From: Paul Wilson Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: handheld radio batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Wilson Bob was good enough to test the non-rechargeable AA Eveready Photo Lithium batteries. The new technology gives a voltage suitable for alkaline replacement. The test results indicate they have more watt hours than any of the alkalines tested. The bonus is the initial voltage is 1.77 vs 1.6 for the Duracell Ultra for great initial power. They are not rechargeable but have long shelf life and would be a good choice for backup for your handheld (or other battery powered gadget you take along). They are pricey but available at WalMart ($2.485 each last time I purchased them). I keep several handy for my GPS and my digital camera to use when the rechargeable ones die. Paul ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:39 PM PST US From: "Sam Hoskins" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Must strobe feed wires be shielded? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" I have received the Nova power suply from Nova, and it lights up my Whelen tubes just Jim Dandy. I bought the Micropak which puts out 20 Jules each to two tubes. Fairly light weight, simple and cheap. However, I can't squeeze the supplied cables through my existing plastic tube (embedded in the wing) along with the two 18AWG I need for the position lights. The three conductor 18 AWG shielded has a nominal diameter of 0.246". I think the cable is Belden's #8770. I found a Belden #8771 which uses 22AWG and has a nominal diameter of 0.199". I think that will do the trick. The run inside the composite wing is about eight feet. Any comments here? Sam -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard Tasker Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Must strobe feed wires be shielded? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker The resistance of the wire you want to use (22 AWG) it is less than 0.02 ohms per foot. For a 15 foot length that gives you 0.3 ohms. If you have a 500V supply supplying 42J in 2 mS that is 42A. Calculating out the voltage drop due to this current gives you a drop of approximately 12V. This means that you are losing less than 3% of the energy in the pulse (500V - 12V). If you do the same calculations with 18 AWG you find you are losing about 1%. So the difference is 2% - not significant. The total energy dissipation in the wire created by 42A for 2mS is equivalent to an average current of 1.8A - well within the rating of 22AWG wire. So... Common sense and good engineering says this should work just fine - especially of you have a problem fitting 18 AWG wire. Dick Tasker ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:08 PM PST US From: J Davis Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: J Davis On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > If a part substitution is being considered to relieve > a diagnosed failure mode, why not substitute a less stiff > battery jumper? Welding cable makes a nice, very flexible > alternative to classic "aircraft" wire. > Agreed, and done. > I'm skeptical that this post broke off purely from the > stresses of one-hour of service. I suspect it was damaged > in some way before it got installed on the airplane. Maybe, but I think I would have noticed when I installed the battery and connected the terminal to the post. This engine shake like a dog climbing out of the creek when it starts, shuts down and below 2500 rpm. Its a function of the gear reduction drive... > There are lots of batteries with a variety of post > designs out there . . . find a heftier post if you > don't want to change the wire. Yes, the Odyssey suggestion was a good one. It just happened that the Panasonics were locally available, so I did an archive search, saw many satisfied Panasonic users, and went for it. The puny post should have set off an alarm bell immediately, but since I was replacing an identical Panasonic, it didn't. > This particular series > of batteries has been in service in airplanes for > about ten years and have accumulated tens of thousands of > hours of service with their posts intact. > It would really surprise me if this was the first and only case of the [Panasonic] post cracking/breaking, simply from a design p.o.v. The post is only 5mm thick by 10mm wide! > Going back to a wet battery just to get a more > robust post is like going back to a PC-XT just > 'cause you had trouble with the USB port on your new > Byte-Thrasher 2000 . . . > Yeah, but I don't think the analogy is that good. Maybe more like adding on a 3rd party USB port card which fails, for whatever reason, and then deciding to simply go back to the old, heavy, cheaper, tried-and-true serial port ;') Just for the record, the Yuasa wet lead battery is $59 CAD at the local farm supply store (TSC), the Panasonic was $93, and Odyssey seems to cost ~$100 USD which would end up closer to $175 landed. That means one could buy three Yuasas for the price of a single Odyssey. Don't get me wrong... I do believe the RG technology is far superior to the old wet cell. It's just that in this particular case, all things considered, it makes sense to revert to the same battery I've used w/o incident in my vintage BMW R60/5 for over 25 years now. -- Regards, J. flying: Zenair STOL CH701/582 C-IGGY , > 250 hrs. building: Sonex #325, engine probably Jabiru 3300/6/120hp | J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp_sci) | UNIX consultant | | SysMgr, research programmer | email: jd@uwo.ca | | Lawson Health Research Inst.| voice: (519) 646 6100 x64166 | | London, Ontario | fax: (519) 646 6385 | | Canada | lriweb.sjhc.london.on.ca/~jd | "Debt can be a powerful asset." -- Merrill-Lynch radio ad ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:52 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" http://www.sunnbattery.bigstep.com/item.jhtml?PRID=1292858 Odyssey PC680 for $74.59 plus $5.50 shipping. As hard as I tried, I couldn't beat that price with a stick. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (finish) http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Davis" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: J Davis > > On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > If a part substitution is being considered to relieve > > a diagnosed failure mode, why not substitute a less stiff > > battery jumper? Welding cable makes a nice, very flexible > > alternative to classic "aircraft" wire. > > > > Agreed, and done. > > > I'm skeptical that this post broke off purely from the > > stresses of one-hour of service. I suspect it was damaged > > in some way before it got installed on the airplane. > > Maybe, but I think I would have noticed when I installed the battery > and connected the terminal to the post. This engine shake like a dog > climbing out of the creek when it starts, shuts down and below 2500 > rpm. Its a function of the gear reduction drive... > > > There are lots of batteries with a variety of post > > designs out there . . . find a heftier post if you > > don't want to change the wire. > > Yes, the Odyssey suggestion was a good one. It just happened that > the Panasonics were locally available, so I did an archive search, > saw many satisfied Panasonic users, and went for it. The puny post > should have set off an alarm bell immediately, but since I was > replacing an identical Panasonic, it didn't. > > > This particular series > > of batteries has been in service in airplanes for > > about ten years and have accumulated tens of thousands of > > hours of service with their posts intact. > > > > It would really surprise me if this was the first and only case of > the [Panasonic] post cracking/breaking, simply from a design p.o.v. > The post is only 5mm thick by 10mm wide! > > > Going back to a wet battery just to get a more > > robust post is like going back to a PC-XT just > > 'cause you had trouble with the USB port on your new > > Byte-Thrasher 2000 . . . > > > > Yeah, but I don't think the analogy is that good. Maybe more like > adding on a 3rd party USB port card which fails, for whatever > reason, and then deciding to simply go back to the old, heavy, > cheaper, tried-and-true serial port ;') > > Just for the record, the Yuasa wet lead battery is $59 CAD at the > local farm supply store (TSC), the Panasonic was $93, and Odyssey > seems to cost ~$100 USD which would end up closer to $175 landed. > That means one could buy three Yuasas for the price of a single > Odyssey. > > Don't get me wrong... I do believe the RG technology is far superior > to the old wet cell. It's just that in this particular case, all > things considered, it makes sense to revert to the same battery > I've used w/o incident in my vintage BMW R60/5 for over 25 years > now. > > > -- > Regards, J. > > flying: Zenair STOL CH701/582 C-IGGY , > 250 hrs. > building: Sonex #325, engine probably Jabiru 3300/6/120hp > > > > "Debt can be a powerful asset." > -- Merrill-Lynch radio ad > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:46 PM PST US From: Finn Lassen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: handheld radio batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Finn Lassen I understand. But surely you're not saying that the NiCads give you longer transmit time after a full recharge (than a fresh set of Alkalines)? Finn cary rhodes wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: cary rhodes > >I am sure none of the batteries were upsidedown. > >The unit uses 10 AA's. > >The problem is that the Alkaline AA's just don't last >very long because of the large current draw on the >transmit function. > >They hold up real well so long as you don't want to >talk. > >there is a little over a 1 amp current draw as per the >ICOM technicial. > >its difficult to get that much current from normal >AA's > >cary r > >http://search.yahoo.com > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:28 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Try http://www.batteries4everything.com in California for Odyssey PC-680 @ $62.55 I just checked the price still the same today. Great sevice when I bought mine last winter. Jim in Kelowna Info in archive, do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > http://www.sunnbattery.bigstep.com/item.jhtml?PRID=1292858 > > Odyssey PC680 for $74.59 plus $5.50 shipping. As hard as I tried, I > couldn't beat that price with a stick. > > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D (finish) > http://www.rvproject.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Davis" > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: J Davis > > > > > On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > If a part substitution is being considered to relieve > > > a diagnosed failure mode, why not substitute a less stiff > > > battery jumper? Welding cable makes a nice, very flexible > > > alternative to classic "aircraft" wire. > > > > > > > Agreed, and done. > > > > > I'm skeptical that this post broke off purely from the > > > stresses of one-hour of service. I suspect it was damaged > > > in some way before it got installed on the airplane. > > > > Maybe, but I think I would have noticed when I installed the battery > > and connected the terminal to the post. This engine shake like a dog > > climbing out of the creek when it starts, shuts down and below 2500 > > rpm. Its a function of the gear reduction drive... > > > > > There are lots of batteries with a variety of post > > > designs out there . . . find a heftier post if you > > > don't want to change the wire. > > > > Yes, the Odyssey suggestion was a good one. It just happened that > > the Panasonics were locally available, so I did an archive search, > > saw many satisfied Panasonic users, and went for it. The puny post > > should have set off an alarm bell immediately, but since I was > > replacing an identical Panasonic, it didn't. > > > > > This particular series > > > of batteries has been in service in airplanes for > > > about ten years and have accumulated tens of thousands of > > > hours of service with their posts intact. > > > > > > > It would really surprise me if this was the first and only case of > > the [Panasonic] post cracking/breaking, simply from a design p.o.v. > > The post is only 5mm thick by 10mm wide! > > > > > Going back to a wet battery just to get a more > > > robust post is like going back to a PC-XT just > > > 'cause you had trouble with the USB port on your new > > > Byte-Thrasher 2000 . . . > > > > > > > Yeah, but I don't think the analogy is that good. Maybe more like > > adding on a 3rd party USB port card which fails, for whatever > > reason, and then deciding to simply go back to the old, heavy, > > cheaper, tried-and-true serial port ;') > > > > Just for the record, the Yuasa wet lead battery is $59 CAD at the > > local farm supply store (TSC), the Panasonic was $93, and Odyssey > > seems to cost ~$100 USD which would end up closer to $175 landed. > > That means one could buy three Yuasas for the price of a single > > Odyssey. > > > > Don't get me wrong... I do believe the RG technology is far superior > > to the old wet cell. It's just that in this particular case, all > > things considered, it makes sense to revert to the same battery > > I've used w/o incident in my vintage BMW R60/5 for over 25 years > > now. > > > > > > -- > > Regards, J. > > > > flying: Zenair STOL CH701/582 C-IGGY , > 250 hrs. > > building: Sonex #325, engine probably Jabiru 3300/6/120hp > > > > | J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp_sci) | UNIX consultant | > > | SysMgr, research programmer | email: jd@uwo.ca | > > | Lawson Health Research Inst.| voice: (519) 646 6100 x64166 | > > | London, Ontario | fax: (519) 646 6385 | > > | Canada | lriweb.sjhc.london.on.ca/~jd | > > > > > > "Debt can be a powerful asset." > > -- Merrill-Lynch radio ad > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:44 PM PST US From: Richard Scott Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: handheld radio batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Scott Here's an alternative: My nicad was pretty much worthless & when it finally gave up the ghost & a replacement cost $65, I went looking for an alternative. My plane has no electrical system, so this is my only radio. I bought a 12V lead acid gel cell battery, I forget what amp-hour rating, but it measures about 2" x 3" x 5". Other sizes are available, look in the phone book under "batteries", as I recall. Hook it up by buying a connector cable at Radio Shack & it plugs into where the cigarette lighter plug goes. For about $10 from Harbor Freight, you can get a "float charger" which will keep your battery charged whenever your plane is in the hangar. An acquaintance flew from Oregon to Alaska & back in his Cub with a similar setup & never had to recharge the battery. Richard Scott Interstate Cadet At 06:51 AM 4/21/03, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: cary rhodes > >Gentlemen > >I am hoping some of the electrical types might know, >because I am electrically challenged. > >My icom handheld needs high amperage batteries. I had >converted the batt pack from the nicad to AA size. > > >But it seems the nicadd had a much larger available >current. > >Does someone make a high output Alkaline AA battery?? > >What about Lithium batteries? > >I do know Duracell's copper tops won't work? > >thanks > >cary rhodes > > >http://search.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:47 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" But they use UPS ground shipping, and tack on a $2 handling fee -- if I recall, the total from b4e was actually higher than from Sunn, who just charges a flat $5.50 shipping fee. do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" > > Try http://www.batteries4everything.com in California for Odyssey PC-680 @ > $62.55 I just checked the price still the same today. > Great sevice when I bought mine last winter. > > Jim in Kelowna > > Info in archive, do not archive > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Checkoway" > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > > > > http://www.sunnbattery.bigstep.com/item.jhtml?PRID=1292858 > > > > Odyssey PC680 for $74.59 plus $5.50 shipping. As hard as I tried, I > > couldn't beat that price with a stick. > > > > )_( Dan > > RV-7 N714D (finish) > > http://www.rvproject.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J Davis" > > To: > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG battery heads-up > > > > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: J Davis > > > > > > > > On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > > > If a part substitution is being considered to relieve > > > > a diagnosed failure mode, why not substitute a less stiff > > > > battery jumper? Welding cable makes a nice, very flexible > > > > alternative to classic "aircraft" wire. > > > > > > > > > > Agreed, and done. > > > > > > > I'm skeptical that this post broke off purely from the > > > > stresses of one-hour of service. I suspect it was damaged > > > > in some way before it got installed on the airplane. > > > > > > Maybe, but I think I would have noticed when I installed the battery > > > and connected the terminal to the post. This engine shake like a dog > > > climbing out of the creek when it starts, shuts down and below 2500 > > > rpm. Its a function of the gear reduction drive... > > > > > > > There are lots of batteries with a variety of post > > > > designs out there . . . find a heftier post if you > > > > don't want to change the wire. > > > > > > Yes, the Odyssey suggestion was a good one. It just happened that > > > the Panasonics were locally available, so I did an archive search, > > > saw many satisfied Panasonic users, and went for it. The puny post > > > should have set off an alarm bell immediately, but since I was > > > replacing an identical Panasonic, it didn't. > > > > > > > This particular series > > > > of batteries has been in service in airplanes for > > > > about ten years and have accumulated tens of thousands of > > > > hours of service with their posts intact. > > > > > > > > > > It would really surprise me if this was the first and only case of > > > the [Panasonic] post cracking/breaking, simply from a design p.o.v. > > > The post is only 5mm thick by 10mm wide! > > > > > > > Going back to a wet battery just to get a more > > > > robust post is like going back to a PC-XT just > > > > 'cause you had trouble with the USB port on your new > > > > Byte-Thrasher 2000 . . . > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, but I don't think the analogy is that good. Maybe more like > > > adding on a 3rd party USB port card which fails, for whatever > > > reason, and then deciding to simply go back to the old, heavy, > > > cheaper, tried-and-true serial port ;') > > > > > > Just for the record, the Yuasa wet lead battery is $59 CAD at the > > > local farm supply store (TSC), the Panasonic was $93, and Odyssey > > > seems to cost ~$100 USD which would end up closer to $175 landed. > > > That means one could buy three Yuasas for the price of a single > > > Odyssey. > > > > > > Don't get me wrong... I do believe the RG technology is far superior > > > to the old wet cell. It's just that in this particular case, all > > > things considered, it makes sense to revert to the same battery > > > I've used w/o incident in my vintage BMW R60/5 for over 25 years > > > now. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Regards, J. > > > > > > flying: Zenair STOL CH701/582 C-IGGY , > 250 hrs. > > > building: Sonex #325, engine probably Jabiru 3300/6/120hp > > > > > > | J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp_sci) | UNIX consultant | > > > | SysMgr, research programmer | email: jd@uwo.ca | > > > | Lawson Health Research Inst.| voice: (519) 646 6100 x64166 | > > > | London, Ontario | fax: (519) 646 6385 | > > > | Canada | lriweb.sjhc.london.on.ca/~jd | > > > > > > > > > "Debt can be a powerful asset." > > > -- Merrill-Lynch radio ad > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:27 PM PST US From: Richard Scott Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: more on handheld radio batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Scott About a year ago there was an article in Sport Aviation in which various brands of batteries were compared. I think the author was Electric Bob or Jim Wier & it was very well done. The upshot was that on a cost basis your best deal was to ignore the advertising hype & buy the cheapest batteries you can find. Richard Scott Interstate Cadet At 11:32 AM 4/21/03, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: cary rhodes > >I am sure none of the batteries were upsidedown. > >The unit uses 10 AA's. > >The problem is that the Alkaline AA's just don't last >very long because of the large current draw on the >transmit function. > >They hold up real well so long as you don't want to >talk. > >there is a little over a 1 amp current draw as per the >ICOM technicial. > >its difficult to get that much current from normal >AA's > >cary r > >http://search.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:55 PM PST US From: Ed Holyoke Subject: FW: AeroElectric-List: Auto pilot switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ed Holyoke The controller does not provide the power for the servos. The servos get their power from the bus, according to the wiring diagram from Trutrak. The 12v(+) 20 gauge wires to the servos are tied to the power wire for the programmer head, after the switch. The ground wires are similarly tied together. If you wire it the way they say to, the switch will shut off the programmer and servos simultaneously. Even if you're not worried about starting transients and such, it seems that it'd be nice to be able to kill the thing if it forgets how to fly the airplane all of a sudden. So I think it's wise to put in a switch, as recommended. I wonder if there's any benefit to putting in a three position switch (off/programmer on/programmer and servo on), so you could positively kill the servo near the ground without killing the programmer. Say you missed approach and were in clouds needing some time off the stick for chart reading and such. You wouldn't have to wait for the autopilot to boot up and have to hold the plane steady while it gets it's bearings before you let it keep the bird level. Just turn the servos back on and engage the autopilot. Of course, Trutrak says that it's not for IFR use anyway, but just an example. Ed Holyoke RV-6 qb Just wired up two TruTrak servos >I think the recent discussion was regarding the use of a switch to cut off power to the controller, not the servos. In the TruTrak installation, the servos get their power from the controller, not directly from the bus. > ======================================================================_- = - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > _- > ======================================================================_- = !! NEWish !! > _- > ======================================================================_- = List Related Information > _- > ====================================================================== > > > >