Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:29 AM - Re: Alternator fields (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 04:32 AM - Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 04:48 AM - Re: Cheap blind encoder. (DHPHKH@aol.com)
4. 07:02 AM - Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter (David Carter)
5. 07:44 AM - Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter (Richard Tasker)
6. 08:54 AM - Builder Documentation (was Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter) (David Carter)
7. 10:02 AM - Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter (John Schroeder)
8. 07:15 PM - Re: Z-13 modified for different control of PM alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 07:18 PM - Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 07:36 PM - Application of FAR Part 91to ABEA (BAKEROCB@aol.com)
11. 08:01 PM - Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter (David Carter)
12. 08:31 PM - Re: Z-13 modified for different control of PM alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 08:38 PM - Re: Microprocessor based Fuel Gauge (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 10:13 PM - Fuel gauges - more (Rob W M Shipley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator fields |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:14 AM 5/20/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Herminghaus
><catignano@everyday.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>The alternator on my TSIO 550 has three small studs marked F1, F2 and
>Aux. How should it be connected to an LR3c?
Ground either F1 or F2, run other "F" to output of LR3. Ignore "Aux"
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:03 AM 5/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
><dcarter@datarecall.net>
>
>What have I missed on use of the list? The file I attached was stripped in
>process of being posted to the AeroElectric List. I re-checked my "Sent"
>file and the dwg was attached when I clicked "Send".
>
>What do I need to do? Put it on my web site and provide a link? Can do
>that.
>
>David
The list server will not pass attachments. This potential
stress on the server for volume of traffic it can handle
and eliminates the propagation of virii.
Yes, if you can post your attachments to a server you
have access to along with a link to that attachment,
it's the way to go.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Cheap blind encoder. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DHPHKH@aol.com
Gang,
Bob wrote: <<It's pretty easy to test your transponder or GPS for the
existence of diodes.>>
A little follow up. Couldn't find a fresh 9V around the shop last
night, so I simply e-mailed Narco. For the record, Narco
confirms that the AT-150 xponder does not have an internal isolation diode
on each encoder line. You must add your own if you parallel the encoder to
the xponder and another device. In this case the other device (GNS430)
already has them, so I only need one set.
Dan
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Ref my initial, modified version of Z-13 for "electrically dependent
engine" (2 batteries, 1 PM John Deere Alternator & voltage regulator):
- I'll send the .dwg file attached to an e-mail to anyone who asks in
pvt e-mail who has a CAD pgm that can open it and zoom & pan. (can send as
.dwg or .dxf). So far that is Eric Jones & Bob Nuckolls. Larry Helming
needs .jpg
- Further, today I'll experiement with exporting "what is on the screen"
to .bmt and converting to .jpg to see how much detail is saved in this
process - yesterday when I tried this I only got what was on the screen (a
highly zoomed view that left out most of the schematic, not the entire
drawing).
David Carter
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
If you are running Windows (of any sort) you can export from AutoCAD
using the WMF format. This is a vector format that is readable in
virtually any Windows program and is scalable. That is, you can put the
entire drawing on the screen, export it to WMF (just select all when
asked) and then someone can view it in various windows programs and pan
and zoom to see the details. It is NOT a bitmap file, so it keeps the
detail at any size - just like the original in AutoCAD.
Or you could download one of the free PDF converter clones to convert it
to PDF format.
Or people who would like to view AutoCAD files but don't have AutoCAD
could download Voloview - a free AutoCAD viewer at:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=837403
This allows viewing and printing (but not modification).
Dick Tasker, 90573
RV-9A right wing
David Carter wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
>
>Request "peer review"/comments/questions on the attached Autocad/Intellicad drawing
(.dwg file)
>At the lower center part of drawing, there are 4 changes that I've made which
I'd like comments on.
>
>I'm designing a "single PM alternator with 2 17ah batteries" system to power an
electrically dependent Mazda rotary engine (electronic fuel inj & ignition).
>
>I've yet to add "battery busses" and details of what instruments, etc will feed
off the main and endurance and battery 1 & 2 busses. I'm seeking "validation"
of my basic concept, before I go into those details.
>
>I don't know how to make this drawing viewable by those without a cad program.
When I convert to .bmp and to .jpg format, I only get the part of the drawing
that shows on the screen. So, . . .
> if anyone wants it in .jpg, I'll get the upper left and right and lower left
and right quarters of the dwg zoomed in enough so all details are readable,
and make 4 images (.bmp to .jpg conversion) and attach all 4 to an e-mail so
anyone can see open and see each quarter of the drawing.
>
>David Carter
>RV-6
>Nederland, Texas
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 mod'd by David |
Carter)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Richard, you get the "gold star" today!!
I'll try that .wmf format and try viewing it before sending it out. Thanks
for the excellent tips on viewers that others can use. I'm definitely going
to get a .pdf file creator - Bob Nuckolls has also given some coaching on
this - just haven't got that far yet.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Tasker" <retasker@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker
<retasker@optonline.net>
>
> If you are running Windows (of any sort) you can export from AutoCAD
> using the WMF format. This is a vector format that is readable in
> virtually any Windows program and is scalable. That is, you can put the
> entire drawing on the screen, export it to WMF (just select all when
> asked) and then someone can view it in various windows programs and pan
> and zoom to see the details. It is NOT a bitmap file, so it keeps the
> detail at any size - just like the original in AutoCAD.
>
> Or you could download one of the free PDF converter clones to convert it
> to PDF format.
>
> Or people who would like to view AutoCAD files but don't have AutoCAD
> could download Voloview - a free AutoCAD viewer at:
>
> http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=837403
>
> This allows viewing and printing (but not modification).
>
> Dick Tasker, 90573
> RV-9A right wing
>
> David Carter wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
<dcarter@datarecall.net>
> >
> >Request "peer review"/comments/questions on the attached
Autocad/Intellicad drawing (.dwg file)
> >At the lower center part of drawing, there are 4 changes that I've made
which I'd like comments on.
> >
> >I'm designing a "single PM alternator with 2 17ah batteries" system to
power an electrically dependent Mazda rotary engine (electronic fuel inj &
ignition).
> >
> >I've yet to add "battery busses" and details of what instruments, etc
will feed off the main and endurance and battery 1 & 2 busses. I'm seeking
"validation" of my basic concept, before I go into those details.
> >
> >I don't know how to make this drawing viewable by those without a cad
program. When I convert to .bmp and to .jpg format, I only get the part of
the drawing that shows on the screen. So, . . .
> > if anyone wants it in .jpg, I'll get the upper left and right and
lower left and right quarters of the dwg zoomed in enough so all details
are readable, and make 4 images (.bmp to .jpg conversion) and attach all 4
to an e-mail so anyone can see open and see each quarter of the drawing.
> >
> >David Carter
> >RV-6
> >Nederland, Texas
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
David
I believe that Bob Nuckolls can convert to a pdf file from autocad. He also
can post it temporarily on his website for folks to download. Bob already
has a copy of your .dwg file. If he is tied up, email me a .dwg file and I
can convert to .pdf file for you.
John Schroeder
> - I'll send the .dwg file attached to an e-mail to anyone who asks in
> pvt e-mail who has a CAD pgm that can open it and zoom & pan. (can send
> as .dwg or .dxf). So far that is Eric Jones & Bob Nuckolls. Larry
> Helming
> needs .jpg
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 modified for different control of PM alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:43 AM 5/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>The CAD drawing is attached. Thanks for taking a look at it.
<snip>
You've made a considerable number of changes to drawing(s)
that have been thoughtfully evolved for a number of years.
In fact, so many changes that it would take me a long time
to do a detailed critical analysis. Can we take a more organized
approach? If you plan dual robust alternators and dual batteries then
choices from the published drawings are:
Z-12 with second battery per Z-30
and
Z-14
Starting with either one of these, can you cite perceived
shortcomings to meet your needs?
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:01 AM 5/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
><dcarter@datarecall.net>
>
>Ref my initial, modified version of Z-13 for "electrically dependent
>engine" (2 batteries, 1 PM John Deere Alternator & voltage regulator):
> - I'll send the .dwg file attached to an e-mail to anyone who asks in
>pvt e-mail who has a CAD pgm that can open it and zoom & pan. (can send as
>.dwg or .dxf). So far that is Eric Jones & Bob Nuckolls. Larry Helming
>needs .jpg
<snip>
I tried to .pdf your drawing but for some reason, AutoCAD finds
over 1700 entities in the drawing and the .pdf version is nearly
3 megabytes. Not sure what's going on with it but it's too big
to be a practical download for sharing with any conversion
software I have here.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Application of FAR Part 91to ABEA |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com
5/20/2003
AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
In a message dated 05/19/2003 12:48:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brucem@olypen.com writes:
> Sorry, but FAR 91.205(b)(9) requires a fuel gauge indicating the quantity
of
> fuel in each tank. Bruce McGregor (GlaStar)
<<Part 91 applies to homebuilts? I must be missing something somewhere (many
would agree :-)>>
Hello SportAV8R, I suspect that you must be kidding. Of course FAR Part 91,
The General Operating and Flight Rules, applies to the operation of ABEA
(Amateur Built Expeimental Aircraft). After Phase One testing is completed and
the
aircraft is being flown around the country just like a standard type
certificated airplane FAR Part 91 does indeed apply. (During Phase One testing
much more
stringent operating rules apply).
The Operating Limitations** issued for each ABEA will also call out
specifically some of the Part 91's that must be complied with or met such as 91.205,
which, in 91.205 (b) (9), requires a "Fuel Gauge indicating the quantity of fuel
in each tank".
Other parts of FAR 91 dealing with flight operations will start out with such
language as "No person may _____________ unless_____________". (See 91.107
for example). Such prohibitions / limitations / requirements apply to the ABEA
and its pilot just as they do to any other aircraft operating in our airspace.
Can you please identify some Part 91 General Operating and Flight Rules that
do not apply to ABEA? Thank you.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
**PS: I will repost some extracts from recently issued ABEA Operating
Limitations if you like or you can find them in the archives.
PPS: Ed Anderson makes the point in his posting on this subject that there is
some variability from FSDO to FSDO on how things are done. This is true. Each
FAA Inspector or DAR (Designated Airworthiness Representative) has some
leeway as he inspects a new ABEA and he has considerable power as he is acting
on
behalf of the FAA Administrator.
But instructions to the Inspector or DAR, including the wording of the
Operation Limitation, is provided by FAA Order 8130.2E so there is much
standardization in that regard. (You could look it up at
<<http://av-info.faa.gov/dst/amateur/8130.2chap4sec7.pdf>> Look for paragraph 134).
Here is a quote that, according to FAA Order 8130.2E, must be included in
each ABEA's Operating Limitations: "In addition, this aircraft must be operated
in accordance with applicable air traffic and general operating rules of part 91
and all additional limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of
91.319(e)."
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Bob,
My file size in My Documents shows 293KB. Also, when I reviewed the email
with atch that I sent, the e-mail showed the atch as 299KB. I don't have a
clue why it would show up as as 3 megabyte file.
About the 1700 entities - I searched Intellicad "Help" and couldn't find how
to tell how many entities are in my drawing. It should be less than was in
the Z-13 drawing I started with because I eliminated 2 mags, the "main"
alternator & VR, a switch, and a few lines. There shouldn't be a big
difference.
I'll attach the file again. See if it looks more reasonable this time. If
still goofed up, let me know "off list".
I changed the dwg from "black background" with "white lines" to "white
backgnd" with "black lines". Would that make a difference?
David
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13 mod'd by David Carter
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 09:01 AM 5/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
> ><dcarter@datarecall.net>
> >
> >Ref my initial, modified version of Z-13 for "electrically dependent
> >engine" (2 batteries, 1 PM John Deere Alternator & voltage regulator):
> > - I'll send the .dwg file attached to an e-mail to anyone who asks
in
> >pvt e-mail who has a CAD pgm that can open it and zoom & pan. (can send
as
> >.dwg or .dxf). So far that is Eric Jones & Bob Nuckolls. Larry Helming
> >needs .jpg
>
> <snip>
>
> I tried to .pdf your drawing but for some reason, AutoCAD finds
> over 1700 entities in the drawing and the .pdf version is nearly
> 3 megabytes. Not sure what's going on with it but it's too big
> to be a practical download for sharing with any conversion
> software I have here.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 modified for different control of PM alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:35 PM 5/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>The e-mail that the dwg was atch'd to had the "rational'
>The e-mail itself may seem a bit long but the key "concept" I'm trying to
>get critique on is this: The Z-13 "alternate alternator, the SD-8" was
>published using battery power to the OVM relay's coil (before start) and I
>simply changed that relay terminal's source of power from "battery" to
>"output of the PM alternator's VR itself" - no alternator output, no closing
>of the relay; or, if have output, and have DC master on (rewired to provide
>ground to PM alternator's OVMcoil's relay) then OVM relay closes, passing
>main alternator power on to main elec system at left side of Main or #1
>battery contactor.
Why is this necessary or useful?
>The switch to bypass a failed diode between main and E-busses is another
>issue, not very important, and not related to the wiring of the "single PM
>alternator" so it will be totally independent of BOTH, the battery (before
>start) and the #1/Main battery contactor (at all times after start and
>normal ops up until failure of batt contactor to 'open' state).
When was the last time you had a diode fail? You already have
an alternate feed path to back up a broken wire in the normal
feed-path, why a switch to back up a diode?
>I know you are busy - so just focus on the issue of how I've proposed wiring
>the PM alternator.
> - Somewhere down in the e-mail, I addressed an issue of "a CB taking a
>BIG slug of overvoltage & current" and, thereby, "welding" or "shorting" so
>it can't open.
Doesn't happen . . . breakers are tested for thousands
of trips with fault currents of up to 1000A . . . a breaker
so poorly designed as to suffer the condition you cited
is a dismal product.
> I am talking about the 5amp CB that the OVM module is
>supposed to pop when it senses an overvoltage. I am just asking if a
>"backup fuse" (which I believe doesn't have the physical capability of
>failing like the CB) would be a rational addition of redundancy/backup to
>the CB so the runaway alternator or its VR would be sure to be taken off
>line when the OVM shorts to initiate killing coil current in the OVM's relay
>so it will open and disconnect alternator from aircraft's system.
What leads you to believe that this operation isn't
well served with as-published architectures?
When you rewire the ov module as depicted, you depend on alternator
output to crowbar the breaker . . . the original design relies
on battery (MUCH better source of current) to crowbar
the breaker. Average fault current in the OVM is 300A
before the breaker opens in 5-10 milliseconds. We WANT
that much current to achieve the rapid disconnect. Your
alternator won't deliver enough current for reliable crowbar
operation. This system was tested at Beech 20+ years ago
for 50 faults in row with excellent results.
Obviously you can wire your airplane any way you wish. If you
have concerns about features in the published drawings, they
are easily mitigated or confirmed by analysis of simple ideas
upon which the design is based. I'm not saying the diagrams
are golden. I am suggesting that if are problems with the
drawings, they need to be fixed . . . not only for your
project but for thousands of other folks who possess the
drawings.
Given that both of your alternators are large (30+ amps)
let's take Figure Z-14. Tell us what concerns you have about
the details of this configuration and let's address them
individually to see if further evolution of the drawing
is called for.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Microprocessor based Fuel Gauge |
Linearizer
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:24 AM 5/18/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Schiff" <tomschiff@attbi.com>
>
>I have heard that capacitive gages will not work with Jet-A because
>there is some water dissolved in the fuel which gives it some
>conductivity. You may be able to use insulated sensors.
There is a certain amount of water dissolved
in all fuels. Our bizjets all use capacity type
fuel gages.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Fuel gauges - more |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" <Rob@RobsGlass.com>
From: "Rick Caldwell" <racaldwell@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary fuel gauges!!!?
The fuel guages in my RV-6 are basically worthless. The wing tanks are at
the wing dihedral angle. The flop tube in the left wing tank necessitates
the sender be mounted further toward tank center. The right tank sender is
not completely at the low point in the tank. Far from it actually.
Therefore, when both guages read empty, I have about 5 gal. in the left tank
and 2 gal. in the right. That is 1 hr of flight at 65% power. Of course I
normally do not fly around with 7 gal. remaining but I am legally allowed to
fly with about 4 gal.
I use my fuel totalizer. On a recent X-C, I had to revise flight plans due
to lowering ceilings ahead. I returned back to the sunny blue skies of FL.
I had fuel to make it to a fuel stop with 5 gal on board after landing or
stop sooner and pay $1/gal. more. I chose to save the money. However, try
telling your nonflying wife why you are flying with both fuel guages on
empty. The digital fuel remaining readout did nothing for calming her fears.
I did not know this until after landing. Otherwise, I would have paid the
$3.25/gal. The fuel guages did me no favors that day. Wish I didn't have them.
Rick,
I understand you have difficulties in setting up your senders to comply with the
FARs and that you induce passenger anxiety ;-), however you are required to
have gauges accurate at empty. I havent tried your setup out on the local FSDO
but I very much doubt it would pass their inspection. My original point and
that reiterated by several listers remains that you need some indicator that
will warn when the tanks are going to run dry NOT merely when calculated flow
says so. I would respectfully suggest that you should find some method of doing
this.
Definitely no flame intended and do not archive.
Fly safe
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
RV9A N919RV Fuselage - now a canoe!!!
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