Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:42 AM - LR3C terminals (Dan Checkoway)
2. 12:52 AM - Merging wiring - FWF (Gerry Holland)
3. 06:28 AM - Re: LR3C terminals (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 02:47 PM - Transpondeur cable question (Gilles.Thesee)
5. 03:28 PM - Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question (Dan Checkoway)
6. 03:34 PM - Re: Transponder cable question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 03:42 PM - Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question (BobsV35B@aol.com)
8. 03:50 PM - Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question (BobsV35B@aol.com)
9. 03:56 PM - Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question (Neville Kilford)
10. 04:24 PM - Re: Transponder cable question (Gilles.Thesee)
11. 04:41 PM - Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question (LarryRobertHelming)
12. 05:15 PM - Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question (Matt Prather)
13. 08:24 PM - Re: Transponder cable question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 10:02 PM - Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question (Jerzy Krasinski)
15. 10:08 PM - Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question (BobsV35B@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
This is probably a silly question, but I'd rather ask than do it wrong...
On the LR3C alternator controller from B&C, what type of wire terminals are
ideal to use with the screws, ring terminals or spade terminals? Spade
terminals seem like they'd work better since you wouldn't have to remove the
screw to install...but B&C doesn't sell spade terminals...which implies to
me that they're not recommended.
Am I over-thinking this?
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Merging wiring - FWF |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Bob Hi! from UK
Did some light reading of Aero Connection Manual this morning over breakfast
to establish some guidance over wiring compatibility. Very wholesome! Still
need your words of wisdom!
In an effort to keep efficient and 'tidy' Wiring, can you advise or confirm
that it it probably be OK to merge various Instrument Sensor wires in 22 AWG
unsceened with the Magneto screened wires (18 AWG) into a single loom,
separating again once through Firewall conduit. I have 22 AWG Screened if
more suitable.
Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
Europa 384 Tri-gear
G-FIZY
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C terminals |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:39 AM 6/3/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>This is probably a silly question, but I'd rather ask than do it wrong...
>
>On the LR3C alternator controller from B&C, what type of wire terminals are
>ideal to use with the screws, ring terminals or spade terminals? Spade
>terminals seem like they'd work better since you wouldn't have to remove the
>screw to install...but B&C doesn't sell spade terminals...which implies to
>me that they're not recommended.
>
>Am I over-thinking this?
Conventional wisdom calls for ring terminals over threaded
fasteners. The open spade terminals are frowned upon because
they would fall off if the screw got loose . . . but if the
screw is loose, then operation of the system is problematical
anyhow and we've designed the system to be protected from
results of any faults due to wires falling off . . .
It's probably more of a craftsmanship issue than a safety
issue.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Transpondeur cable question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Bob and all,
The Becker AT4401 transponder installation manual calls for RG 223/U coax
for the 175 watt version, and RG 58/U or RG 223/U for the 250 watt model.
We didn't know that before installing RG 58/U cable in the plane.
How do those two cables losses compare for a length of 17 ft (5 meters) at
1030 or 1090 MHz ?
And could we install RG 400, easier to find in short lengths ?
Thanks,
Gilles
Message 5
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| Subject: | Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Having heard only good things about Mid-Continent instruments, and having
heard several negative comments about the Falcon turn coordinators, I opted
to buy the Mid-Continent turn coordinator from Chief. My only concern (so
far) is that on the back of the instrument it reads:
"Calibrated for installation in vertical panel"
Maybe I'm reading into it, but on my RV-7 the panel has an 8-degree forward
tilt. Should I be concerned about this turn coordinator functioning
properly? It's my assumption that only *attitude* gyros need to be
specially calibrated for the 8-degree tilt (so the horizon lines up
properly). Is that the case?
Thanks in advance,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Transponder cable question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:45 PM 6/3/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee"
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>The Becker AT4401 transponder installation manual calls for RG 223/U coax
>for the 175 watt version, and RG 58/U or RG 223/U for the 250 watt model.
>We didn't know that before installing RG 58/U cable in the plane.
>
>How do those two cables losses compare for a length of 17 ft (5 meters) at
>1030 or 1090 MHz ?
>And could we install RG 400, easier to find in short lengths ?
I added RG223 to the coax loss chart I published a year ago.
You can find it at:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/coaxloss.pdf
223 is and "old" coax with PVC jacket . . . if it were my
airplane, I'd use RG-400. If I had a scrap of RG-141 laying
around (solid conductor version of 400), I'd use up the scrap
before I bought new RG-400.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 6/3/03 5:29:06 PM Central Daylight Time, dan@rvproject.com
writes:
> Maybe I'm reading into it, but on my RV-7 the panel has an 8-degree forward
> tilt. Should I be concerned about this turn coordinator functioning
> properly? It's my assumption that only *attitude* gyros need to be
> specially calibrated for the 8-degree tilt (so the horizon lines up
> properly). Is that the case?
Good Evening Dan,
That instrument definitely need to be mounted in a vertical panel. If you
have an eight degree slanted panel, you either have to have an instrument
calibrated that way at the factory or use an eight degree wedge to get it back
in
the proper plane.
Canting the gyro makes it act like a Turn Coordinator. That is all a TC is.
It is a rate gyro mounted at an angle of between thirty and forty-five
degrees (very often 37 degrees) to the level so that it will be sensitive to both
roll and yaw. A Turn and Bank that is properly mounted will be affected only by
yaw. Obviously, the speed, and thus, the angle of attack, being flown will
affect that to some degree, but the instrument manufacturers do make provision
within the instrument for mounting in slanted panels so that the instrument
will be as little affected by extraneous sensing as is possible.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 6/3/03 5:29:06 PM Central Daylight Time, dan@rvproject.com
writes:
> "Calibrated for installation in vertical panel"
>
Good Evening Once Again Dan,
I obviously didn't read your original message correctly prior to sending my
message. You have a Turn Coordinator and not a Turn and Bank.
My message was specifically oriented toward proper mounting of the T&B not a
TC. However, the same thing applies.
It should be mounted as the manufacturer intended. You can purchase rate
instruments that are calibrated for slanted panels. Since the TC never tells the
truth anyway, I guess mounting it correctly would not be as important as is
mounting a T&B correctly, but I would imagine mounting it eight degrees off of
where it was designed to be could adversely affect the ratio as to whether the
instrument was indicating roll or yaw. The Rate of Turn indications during a
stable coordinated turn would probably be acceptably close even when mounted
on a slanted panel. Best, though, to get an instrument matched to your panel.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford@etravel.org>
Dan,
I wonder how it could know? I mean, even if it's in a vertical panel, what
about if you were in a climb, or a descent, or a turn. Assuming it's only
important during startup, what about if you were starting on a slope? Or in a
tailwheel? No panel could be *exactly* vertical, could it?
Perhaps it just means a grossly vertical panel, i.e. not a horizontal panel.
I'll be interested to hear a definitive answer.
Cheers.
Nev
--
Jodel D150, UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
<dan@rvproject.com>
>
> Having heard only good things about Mid-Continent instruments, and having
> heard several negative comments about the Falcon turn coordinators, I opted
> to buy the Mid-Continent turn coordinator from Chief. My only concern (so
> far) is that on the back of the instrument it reads:
>
> "Calibrated for installation in vertical panel"
>
> Maybe I'm reading into it, but on my RV-7 the panel has an 8-degree forward
> tilt. Should I be concerned about this turn coordinator functioning
> properly? It's my assumption that only *attitude* gyros need to be
> specially calibrated for the 8-degree tilt (so the horizon lines up
> properly). Is that the case?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Transponder cable question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Bob,
Talk of a quick answer !
Now a naive question : does a 30 db/100 ft loss give a 6 db loss for 20 ft ?
I forgot about those logarithmic functions.
Our cable loss must be less than 18.5 db (17-18 ft cable).
Thanks a lot,
Gilles
>
> I added RG223 to the coax loss chart I published a year ago.
> You can find it at:
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/coaxloss.pdf
>
> 223 is and "old" coax with PVC jacket . . . if it were my
> airplane, I'd use RG-400. If I had a scrap of RG-141 laying
> around (solid conductor version of 400), I'd use up the scrap
> before I bought new RG-400.
>
> Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
It makes we wonder if the turn coordinator in the Navaids autopilot will
work in a tail dragger? Or should these be setup in the level and not worry
about them in the ground attitude?
Larry in Indiana, RV7 Tip-up O-360 3XG reserved.
Working on Canopy of Finish Kit
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford@etravel.org>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt
question
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford"
<nkilford@etravel.org>
>
> Dan,
>
> I wonder how it could know? I mean, even if it's in a vertical panel,
what
> about if you were in a climb, or a descent, or a turn. Assuming it's only
> important during startup, what about if you were starting on a slope? Or
in a
> tailwheel? No panel could be *exactly* vertical, could it?
>
> Perhaps it just means a grossly vertical panel, i.e. not a horizontal
panel.
> I'll be interested to hear a definitive answer.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Nev
>
> --
> Jodel D150, UK.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt
question
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
> <dan@rvproject.com>
> >
> > Having heard only good things about Mid-Continent instruments, and
having
> > heard several negative comments about the Falcon turn coordinators, I
opted
> > to buy the Mid-Continent turn coordinator from Chief. My only concern
(so
> > far) is that on the back of the instrument it reads:
> >
> > "Calibrated for installation in vertical panel"
> >
> > Maybe I'm reading into it, but on my RV-7 the panel has an 8-degree
forward
> > tilt. Should I be concerned about this turn coordinator functioning
> > properly? It's my assumption that only *attitude* gyros need to be
> > specially calibrated for the 8-degree tilt (so the horizon lines up
> > properly). Is that the case?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > )_( Dan
> > RV-7 N714D
> > http://www.rvproject.com
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
T&B's and TC's depend on being mounted a certain way - the
axis of the gyro with respect to the motion of the airplane.
The orientation of the single axis gyro effects to which axis
(yaw, roll, pitch) it is coupled. The difference between a T&B
and a TC is that the TC gets coupled to the roll axis of the
aircraft by being tipped off-axis from vertical. This means
that rolling into a bank without also turning will cause a TC
to respond, but a T&B will ignore it - no coupling.
Unless you are planning to do IFR while in a 3-point attitude
(while its foggy at the airport?), neither instrument will care
a whit the orientation of the instrument while on the ground
(taildragger/tricycle). Once you are flying, then it will matter.
I have to imagine the both the T&B and the TC will behave slightly
differently when in a low airspeed climb because the orientation
of the yaw axis is slightly different then when in cruise.
Regards,
Matt Prather
N34RD
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming"
> <lhelming@sigecom.net>
>
> It makes we wonder if the turn coordinator in the Navaids autopilot will
> work in a tail dragger? Or should these be setup in the level and not
> worry about them in the ground attitude?
>
> Larry in Indiana, RV7 Tip-up O-360 3XG reserved.
> Working on Canopy of Finish Kit
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford@etravel.org>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Transponder cable question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:22 AM 6/4/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee"
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Talk of a quick answer !
>Now a naive question : does a 30 db/100 ft loss give a 6 db loss for 20 ft ?
yes. RG-400 is about 24 db/100 ft at GPS frequencies. 20ft
of cable yields 1/5th that amount or 4.8 db.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski@direcway.com>
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>......Canting the gyro makes it act like a Turn Coordinator. That is all a TC
is.....
>
However, canting can be done a few ways. Among others, the gyro can be
canted normal way where the rear part of the instrument (that is the
part pointing in the direction of the flight) goes down and the dial up,
or it can be canted the other way i.e. rear part of the instrument moved
up in respect to the dial
All right, all right, I know that nobody cants panels the last and
wrong way, but this is how they tilt a gyro in order to make it into a
Turn Coordinator. In the Turn Coordinator when the left wing goes down,
even before the turn started, the gyro "feels" and shows it as a left
turn because of the canting. Easy to see that effect of the wing going
down if you imagine the gyro at an extreme and never used cant angle of
90 deg,. i.e. rear of the instrument up, and the dial down. That gives
the left turn signal a little before the start of the turn, which is a
good info, but it makes the indicator more nervous.
But look what happens if you mount the gyro in a normally canted panel.
Now if the left wing drops down, even before the left turn started, the
gyro feels it and shows it as the RIGHT turn. Eventually, the indicator
will go left as you develop the left turn. That makes the gyro behaving
in a slow, lazy and confusing way, with all these symptoms increasing
as you increase the canting angle. Not a good idea.
However, if you have a Turn Coordinator, where the gyro is internally
canted "rear up" around 30 deg, or more, and if you mounted it in a
normally canted panel tilted by a few degrees, you would still have a
Turn Coordinator with a slightly less effective internal canting . If
you increased the canting angle of the panel to an unlikely 30 degrees,
you would find that your turn coordinator behaves like a normal Turn and
Bank, because the canting of the panel cancelled the internal canting of
the gyro. You would detect confusing indications only if you used a
panel with a huge canting of over 30 degrees
Jerzy
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Mid-Continent turn coordinator -- tilt question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 6/4/03 12:02:56 AM Central Daylight Time,
krasinski@direcway.com writes:
> However, if you have a Turn Coordinator, where the gyro is internally
> canted "rear up" around 30 deg, or more, and if you mounted it in a
> normally canted panel tilted by a few degrees, you would still have a
> Turn Coordinator with a slightly less effective internal canting . If
> you increased the canting angle of the panel to an unlikely 30 degrees,
> you would find that your turn coordinator behaves like a normal Turn and
> Bank, because the canting of the panel cancelled the internal canting of
> the gyro. You would detect confusing indications only if you used a
> panel with a huge canting of over 30 degrees
> Jerzy
>
Sounds fair to me!
I still think the only proper use for a canted gyro is as a sensor for a
cheap autopilot. It makes a lousy flight instrument. Just one guys opinion!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
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