AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sat 06/14/03


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:58 AM - Battery location (Neville Kilford)
     2. 07:23 AM - Re: Battery location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 07:37 AM - Re: Battery contactor selection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 08:50 AM - UV Protection (BAKEROCB@aol.com)
     5. 08:50 AM - Strobe wire (BAKEROCB@aol.com)
     6. 08:56 AM - transient spikes (BAKEROCB@aol.com)
     7. 03:13 PM - UMA 12-100-100 OAT Pinout? (DHPHKH@aol.com)
     8. 03:15 PM - UMA 12-100-100 OAT Pinout? (DHPHKH@aol.com)
     9. 04:32 PM - Q: KT76 NAV Audio Pin (Jon Finley)
    10. 04:48 PM - Re: Q: KT76 NAV Audio Pin (rondefly)
    11. 06:37 PM - At last, the truth can be told... (Sam Hoskins)
    12. 07:12 PM - Re: At last, the truth can be told... (rondefly)
    13. 07:22 PM - Re: At last, the truth can be told... (Jon Finley)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:58:06 AM PST US
    From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford@etravel.org>
    Subject: Battery location
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford@etravel.org> > my favorite battery for light aircraft is the LC-RD1217P described at > http//www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_VRLA_LC > -RD1217P.pdf > > This battery is made by many manufacturers and can usually be > purchased locally for less than $75 Bob & others, I'm glad to have read this, since this is the battery I've chosen. I've been thinking I would put the battery inside the firewall, with the contactors -- in the dry, in the warm, and close to everything. I think this might be a kinder environment for them. However, I've been rather put-off by the number of people who swing by the hangar, look at the build project, and say: 1) they think the battery is too small 2) that it should go in front of the firewall, next to the engine. Point 1) I'm happy about -- the battery can, according to Yuasa, deliver about 250 amps! More than enough to turn a B&C starter on a 115hp engine, I would think. In any case, when I ask the people why they think the battery is too small, they don't talk about deep current, they just talk about how big the battery is on their plane, and none can deliver a good argument for a larger battery. But I'm wondering about 2). Is my plan to keep the contactors, etc., inside a good one? I can see what people are saying when they say that it's not so accessible under the panel, especially if it needs to be charged up, but I've no idea if I will need to get at it. I've never owned a plane, so I'm not sure about the level of maintenance involved. I'm guessing it's low, and that I'll hardl need to get at the battery. Any information & opinions would be appreciated. Cheers. Nev -- Jodel D150 in progress UK


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:23:01 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Battery location
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net> At 12:57 PM 6/14/2003 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" ><nkilford@etravel.org> > > > my favorite battery for light aircraft is the LC-RD1217P described at > > >http//www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_VRLA_LC > > -RD1217P.pdf > > > > This battery is made by many manufacturers and can usually be > > purchased locally for less than $75 > > >Bob & others, > >I'm glad to have read this, since this is the battery I've chosen. > >I've been thinking I would put the battery inside the firewall, with the >contactors -- in the dry, in the warm, and close to everything. I think this >might be a kinder environment for them. However, I've been rather put-off by >the number of people who swing by the hangar, look at the build project, and >say: > >1) they think the battery is too small If it were a flooded battery it might be true. RG technology is a whole new ballgame. >2) that it should go in front of the firewall, next to the engine. That works too. If there is room for it, I'd go for up front. There is little difference in service life of the gizmos for the two mounting locations. A forward of the firewall location is easier to wire and probably easier to maintain. >Point 1) I'm happy about -- the battery can, according to Yuasa, deliver >about 250 amps! More than enough to turn a B&C starter on a 115hp engine, I >would think. In any case, when I ask the people why they think the battery >is too small, they don't talk about deep current, they just talk about how >big the battery is on their plane, and none can deliver a good argument for a >larger battery. > >But I'm wondering about 2). Is my plan to keep the contactors, etc., inside >a good one? I can see what people are saying when they say that it's not so >accessible under the panel, especially if it needs to be charged up, but I've >no idea if I will need to get at it. I've never owned a plane, so I'm not >sure about the level of maintenance involved. I'm guessing it's low, and >that I'll hardl need to get at the battery. If it were my airplane, I count on having to put my hands on a battery once a year . . . to put a new one in. See page 12 of http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch17-9.pdf and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf It's your choice. As for "charging" consider some variety of ground power connector. See article on website for heavy duty ground power connector that will carry cranking currents . . . or you can include some lighter connector that allows you to charge the battery from some conveniently accessable connector and not have to crawl under the panel. Given the superior performance of the RG battery for storage life -AND- the modern approach to system architecture, fabrication and maitenance, it's unlikely that you will ever need to attach ground power to your airplane due to discharged battery . . . that's a pleasure reserved for our brothers not so blessed as we. >Any information & opinions would be appreciated. When folks come by and offer their opinions based on what they know of the past 100 years of certified aviation technology and progress, you might invite them to visit our website and perhaps join this list. If all they have for a knowledge base is what has gone before in contemporary certified aviation, then they're missing about 80% of what aviation is really all about. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:37:37 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Battery contactor selection
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net> At 10:11 PM 6/13/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ken Walck" <kwalck@charter.net> > >What doesn't make sense about the battery fumes being the culprit is that >the sealed contactor (the most recent, a marine solenoid) lasted the >shortest amout of time. Doesn't seem like it could have corroded so >quickly. Are you sure it was battery fumes? Years ago, Cessna went from a cowl fastened solidly to the fuselage to a "floating cowl" that attached using shock mountings. The notion was that it reduced cabin noise. It also allowed rain water to run down the firewall . . . A gizmo mounted on the firewall might get toasty under a summer sun and when a shower comes along, a little splash of cold water would not only cool it off but cause internal pressure drop that actually cased it to SUCK WATER INSIDE. Cessna asked us to "seal" some of our products with RTV and they launched other programs to "seal" contactors and other gizmos with epoxy, rtv, etc. The result was predictable. Unless you acquire a HERMETIC pressure seal, every attempt to seal using uckum-yucky would have tiny leaks somewhere. These tiny leaks will still pass liquid water because of cooling pressure drop. The water that came into a pin-hole as liquid had to get out through the same pinhole as a vapor using only atmospheric pressure changes to do the gas exchange. Turns out, the harder they they attempted to seal things up, the faster they failed due to internal corrosion. I don't know that this is the effect you're dealing with. I offer it as anecdotal example of how root cause of a failure can oft times be some completely unconsidered or investigated effect . . . These root causes are easily missed when the fog of "patently obvious" stresses like battery fumes get in the way. It MIGHT be battery fumes but keep an open mind as to alternatives of which there may be many. It would be interesting to inspect your failed parts. Do you still have them? Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:50:52 AM PST US
    From: BAKEROCB@aol.com
    Subject: UV Protection
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com --> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net> <<Wouldn't the metallic paint layer used to protect the composite material from solar radiation block reception? Do not archive Dave Reel - RV8A >> Hello Dave, The UV protection provided by Poly Fiber's UV Smooth Prime comes from billions of mica chips in the primer. No problem with blocking antenna signals. Another UV blocking material used is carbon black. I don't know how that would affect antenna performance. Using powdered aluminum mixed into the paint or dope is another method of UV protection -- this would probably adversely affect antenna performance. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:50:52 AM PST US
    From: BAKEROCB@aol.com
    Subject: Strobe wire
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: DAVAWALKER@aol.com <<Is it practical to cut and splice, or use a terminal block, the shielded wire supplied by Whelen with their strobe kits? Sure would make much easier to prewire the power supply and splice at the wing roots upon assembly. Thanks D. Walker RV7 >> 6/14/2003 Hello D. Here is how I solved that problem (I wanted to avoid a connection at the wing root.) I installed a rudimentary flexible conduit made of heat shrink tubing through the side of the fuselage to permit feeding the high voltage Whelen strobe cable through. I allowed additional cable length in a loop inside the wing tip. To remove the wing along with the cable just unplug the cable from the power supply, cut off the AMP Mate-N-Lock connector on the strobe power supply end of the cable, disconnect the drain wire from the power supply chassis, and pull the cable out of the fuselage. To reinstall the cable just slide the cut end back through the conduit, crimp 3 new pins on the end of the cable wires, push the new pins into the plastic connector, and plug into the power supply. The drain wire connects separately to the power supply chassis. The plastic connector is reusable by removing the old pins with a piece of small diameter tubing to compress the barbs or just using a small probe to bend the pin barbs and push the old pins back out. New 3 circuit AMP connector housings and pins to plug into the power supply are available from Terminal Town and other sources. The housing for the pins is part number 1-480305-0 and the part number for the pins is 60620-1 (in loose form). Just for reference purposes the matching 3 circuit AMP connector cap is part number 1-480303-0 and the sockets are part number 60619-1 (in loose form). This technique should be good for many more wing removals than you'd like to make. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? PS: My Whelen provided cable has a foil shield which would be extremely difficult to connect with pins within a plastic housing as Bob Nuckolls suggested. It does have a drain wire which could be connected with a four pin connector if you decide to go that route.


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:56:30 AM PST US
    From: BAKEROCB@aol.com
    Subject: transient spikes
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com 6/14/2003 Hello Bob Nuckolls, I thought that you might be interested in the two postings below copied from the Pulsar builder's web serve list. No indication of which EIS is involved. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? Brian I have an EIS and I have a switch on it. I start the engine then turn on the EIS to avoid the start up spike. Once the engine died just after start up and I restarted without turning off the EIS and the spike messed up the EIS readings. All you need is to switch the EIS. Clarke > A few days ago I decided to make some transient suppressors [filters] to fit > into my electrical system to see if that helps solve the mysterious and > intermittent problem regarding the distorted audio [on transmit] reports > that I have been getting. > > As an aside, transient spikes can do interesting things to your EIS system. > I don't have an on-off switch for my EIS, so early on I was starting the > engine, and stopping it, with the EIS operational. On a few occasions all > the presets I had in the non-volatile memory were wiped, and the readings > were all haywire. Easy enough to re-program, but since then I have avoided > the problem by leaving the EIS off when starting and stopping. The cause has > to be transients or spikes on the +12 volt supply rail. > > So, I have three filters to fit today. One each in the supply line for the > EIS, the intercom and the com radio. The filters consist of a pi filter, > with 470 mf each side of a choke wound on a powdered iron toroid. No > particular value of inductance, but reasonably heavy enamelled wire. 0.1mf > caps in parallel with the electrolytics [because they have lower impedance > at high frequencies], and an 18 volt zener diode across the load side. The > zener is to make absolutely sure that the tops are sliced off any transients > that happen to get through the filter, and the maximum voltage that can > appear at any connected equipment is 18 volts. If there is a whopping > transient that is sustained long enough then the zener might blow, or the > fuse might blow, but these are a lot less expensive to replace than an EIS > or a radio. > > Don't know if anyone else has gone to these lengths, but it is not expensive > to do this. Should at least eliminate some potential transient problems, and > make sure that the system is as "quiet" as possible. The only difficulty is > getting access to the wiring behind the panel. > > Brian


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:13:19 PM PST US
    From: DHPHKH@aol.com
    Subject: UMA 12-100-100 OAT Pinout?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DHPHKH@aol.com


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:15:50 PM PST US
    From: DHPHKH@aol.com
    Subject: UMA 12-100-100 OAT Pinout?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DHPHKH@aol.com Gang, Anybody happen to have a pinout for the above? I'm sure I can get it from UMA on Monday, but I'm trying to finish up a panel this weekend. This one has a miswired factory plug, or it's just dead. Dan


    Message 9


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    Time: 04:32:44 PM PST US
    From: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net>
    Subject: Q: KT76 NAV Audio Pin
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net> Hi all, I would like to install an external switch on my King KX155 NAV audio (the internal switch will not allow me to turn the NAV audio down/off). I'm a bit confused looking at the pin out (a feeling that I am quite familiar with!). The following lines are listed: 1) NAV AUDIO HI 2) NAV AUDIO LO They come out of one connector and into another connector (both on the KX155). Are these the right wires to switch? If so, should I install the switch in one (single pole) or both (double pole) of these connections? Thanks much! BTW: Flew my newly re-engined Q2 with Subaru EJ-22 Legacy last night for the first time. Short but safe flight! Jon Finley N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 440 Hrs. TT - 0 Hrs Engine Apple Valley, Minnesota http://www.FinleyWeb.net/default.asp?id=96


    Message 10


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    Time: 04:48:07 PM PST US
    From: "rondefly" <rondefly@rtriano.com>
    Subject: Q: KT76 NAV Audio Pin
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rondefly" <rondefly@rtriano.com> Congrats Jon on the safe first again flight, that Legasy is a great engine, I have two cars with them. Ron Triano -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jon Finley Subject: AeroElectric-List: Q: KT76 NAV Audio Pin --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net> Hi all, I would like to install an external switch on my King KX155 NAV audio (the internal switch will not allow me to turn the NAV audio down/off). I'm a bit confused looking at the pin out (a feeling that I am quite familiar with!). The following lines are listed: 1) NAV AUDIO HI 2) NAV AUDIO LO They come out of one connector and into another connector (both on the KX155). Are these the right wires to switch? If so, should I install the switch in one (single pole) or both (double pole) of these connections? Thanks much! BTW: Flew my newly re-engined Q2 with Subaru EJ-22 Legacy last night for the first time. Short but safe flight! Jon Finley N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 440 Hrs. TT - 0 Hrs Engine Apple Valley, Minnesota http://www.FinleyWeb.net/default.asp?id=96


    Message 11


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    Time: 06:37:22 PM PST US
    From: "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins@Globaleyes.net>
    "Paul Long" <paulong@earthlink.net>, "Chris Whittet" <chriswhittet@wi.rr.com>, "Jeff Gostisha" <jgostisha@hotmail.com>, "Eduardo Nixon" <e.nixon@123.com.sv>, "Ken Tunnell" <lycon@lycon.com>, "Charlie Rodriguez" <crod@siu.edu>, "Sandy Smith" <ssmith17@midwest.net>
    Subject: At last, the truth can be told...
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins@globaleyes.net> Just a little progress report, here. After last year's AirVenture Cup race I decided I needed more speed. At first I intended to accomplish it with aerodynamic improvements but later I decided to go the Cro-Magnon route and get it with brute force. So, last November I sent my O-200 cylinders off to Ly-Con in California (they build engines for Sean Tucker, Jim LeRoy, etc.) for the magic dust. They flow ported the cylinders and polished the elbows and spider. They also built high compression pistons, so I went from 7:1 to 9:1. While I already had most of the engine apart I figured I may as well overhaul the whole thing. I'm glad I stripped it down since I found a crack in the crankshaft. That probably was the result of my prop strike due to a previous runway excursion, due to a broken tail spring. As long as I did all that, I decided I may as well have the crankcase overhauled, so I sent that to Divco in Tulsa. The cam and related parts went to D&S Camshaft in Florida. I was very pleased by the workmanship done by all these firms. As long as I was waiting for all this stuff to come back, I decided to completely re-wire the aircraft, ala Bob Nucholls and his AeroElectric Connection publication. I went after my plane with a wire cutters and 20 minutes later most of the wire, circuit breakers, and switches were lying in a heap on the hangar floor. I stuck in a new alternator, low voltage and low oil pressure idiot lights, split the system into a main bus and essential bus, and drew up a bunch of prefessional looking schematics. Oh, I stuck in a new strobe system also and recombinant gas battery. Now I have an excellent electrical system, if I do say so myself. Bob Nucholls is awesome. I now also have an EGT and CHT for each cylinder. Still don't have a starter. For those of you still building, I can't say enough about the wisdom of engineering in Bob Nucholl's book and systems. I now consider it a must have. Since I am a total glutton for punishment, I decided to also redo the baffling system. I glassed up a plenum system based on help from Lynn French and Jerry Marstal. I'll get pictures posted on my web site pretty soon. They are all fiberglass and I hope they work. So today, we fired up the engine for the first time. All indications are good. The electrical system seems solid and I think the engine sounds nice, but I only ran it for seven minutes and to 1,200 RPM. I have a new exhaust system on order and that should arrive toward the end of next week. In the meantime I'm using my old exhaust. There are just a few details to take care of, and with a little luck I may fly early this week. With a little more luck I just may make it to Mattoon. Major thanks to Sandy Smith for putting up with all this silliness and Charley Rodriguez for helping with the engine and kicking me in the pants. Thanks to again Lynn for his patience answering my questions about his baffling. Thanks also to Mike Bergren for the drawings of his wheel pants, which I'll get to NEXT winter. So, if all the planets line up correctly and the Lord willin' and the creek don't rise, I'll be back in the air in a couple of days. I can't wait to see how the engine performs! And BTW, at last year's AirVenture Cup race there were about 42 planes and three in the Sprint class (240 cubic inches of less). This year there will be 85 planes and 12 in the Sprint! Wow! Regards, Sam Quickie Q-200 ~1,250 hrs.


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:12:00 PM PST US
    From: "rondefly" <rondefly@rtriano.com>
    Subject: At last, the truth can be told...
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rondefly" <rondefly@rtriano.com> Hi Sam, I would be interested in seeing your baffling system, I am really done with the glass work so a little more won't hurt. I too went to Bob Nicholls and got his CD and Book, great way to go, I am still reading his stuff. Today i put schrader valves on my canopy cylinders, will fill them tomorrow and install for test. I will fill them with the CO2 bicycle pump to get them up to the correct pressure. Found out about the CO2 thing from the Dfly boys at Chino last week. With all that you have done I am sure you will get some great performance. Ron Triano -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Jeff Gostisha; Eduardo Nixon; Ken Tunnell; Charlie Rodriguez; Sandy Smith Subject: AeroElectric-List: At last, the truth can be told... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins@globaleyes.net> Just a little progress report, here. After last year's AirVenture Cup race I decided I needed more speed. At first I intended to accomplish it with aerodynamic improvements but later I decided to go the Cro-Magnon route and get it with brute force. So, last November I sent my O-200 cylinders off to Ly-Con in California (they build engines for Sean Tucker, Jim LeRoy, etc.) for the magic dust. They flow ported the cylinders and polished the elbows and spider. They also built high compression pistons, so I went from 7:1 to 9:1. While I already had most of the engine apart I figured I may as well overhaul the whole thing. I'm glad I stripped it down since I found a crack in the crankshaft. That probably was the result of my prop strike due to a previous runway excursion, due to a broken tail spring. As long as I did all that, I decided I may as well have the crankcase overhauled, so I sent that to Divco in Tulsa. The cam and related parts went to D&S Camshaft in Florida. I was very pleased by the workmanship done by all these firms. As long as I was waiting for all this stuff to come back, I decided to completely re-wire the aircraft, ala Bob Nucholls and his AeroElectric Connection publication. I went after my plane with a wire cutters and 20 minutes later most of the wire, circuit breakers, and switches were lying in a heap on the hangar floor. I stuck in a new alternator, low voltage and low oil pressure idiot lights, split the system into a main bus and essential bus, and drew up a bunch of prefessional looking schematics. Oh, I stuck in a new strobe system also and recombinant gas battery. Now I have an excellent electrical system, if I do say so myself. Bob Nucholls is awesome. I now also have an EGT and CHT for each cylinder. Still don't have a starter. For those of you still building, I can't say enough about the wisdom of engineering in Bob Nucholl's book and systems. I now consider it a must have. Since I am a total glutton for punishment, I decided to also redo the baffling system. I glassed up a plenum system based on help from Lynn French and Jerry Marstal. I'll get pictures posted on my web site pretty soon. They are all fiberglass and I hope they work. So today, we fired up the engine for the first time. All indications are good. The electrical system seems solid and I think the engine sounds nice, but I only ran it for seven minutes and to 1,200 RPM. I have a new exhaust system on order and that should arrive toward the end of next week. In the meantime I'm using my old exhaust. There are just a few details to take care of, and with a little luck I may fly early this week. With a little more luck I just may make it to Mattoon. Major thanks to Sandy Smith for putting up with all this silliness and Charley Rodriguez for helping with the engine and kicking me in the pants. Thanks to again Lynn for his patience answering my questions about his baffling. Thanks also to Mike Bergren for the drawings of his wheel pants, which I'll get to NEXT winter. So, if all the planets line up correctly and the Lord willin' and the creek don't rise, I'll be back in the air in a couple of days. I can't wait to see how the engine performs! And BTW, at last year's AirVenture Cup race there were about 42 planes and three in the Sprint class (240 cubic inches of less). This year there will be 85 planes and 12 in the Sprint! Wow! Regards, Sam Quickie Q-200 ~1,250 hrs.


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:22:40 PM PST US
    From: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net>
    Subject: At last, the truth can be told...
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net> Worth mentioning... A photo of Sam's airplane is in the current Kitplanes under the Tandem Wing article!! Jon DO NOT ARCHIVE > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On > Behalf Of Sam Hoskins > To: Quickie List; thoskins@vinson.navy.mil; Paul Long; Chris > Whittet; Jeff Gostisha; Eduardo Nixon; Ken Tunnell; Charlie > Rodriguez; Sandy Smith > Subject: AeroElectric-List: At last, the truth can be told... > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" > <shoskins@globaleyes.net> > > Just a little progress report, here. After last year's > AirVenture Cup race I decided I needed more speed. At first > I intended to accomplish it with aerodynamic improvements but > later I decided to go the Cro-Magnon route and get it with > brute force. So, last November I sent my O-200 cylinders off > to Ly-Con in California (they build engines for Sean Tucker, > Jim LeRoy, etc.) for the magic dust. They flow ported the > cylinders and polished the elbows and spider. They also > built high compression pistons, so I went from 7:1 to 9:1.




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