---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/25/03: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:34 AM - Wiring VM1000 for dual alternator installation (Treff, Arthur) 2. 02:45 AM - Re: recording intercom with a digital voice recorder (Ian Scott) 3. 06:06 AM - Electric Gyro Question (William Bernard) 4. 06:23 AM - Re: Electric Gyro Question (Benford2@aol.com) 5. 06:26 AM - Re: Electric Gyro Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:32 AM - Re: Wiring VM1000 for dual alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: isolated ground wire for avionics (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:32 AM - Electric Gyro Corp turn co-ordinator (Neville Kilford) 9. 08:45 AM - Ring terminal sizes for contactors (Neville Kilford) 10. 09:58 AM - Re: Ring terminal sizes for contactors (Gilles.Thesee) 11. 10:48 AM - Re: Ring terminal sizes for contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 10:50 AM - Re: Is the E-Bus that Essential? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 10:57 AM - Re: Ring terminal sizes for contactors (Neville Kilford) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring VM1000 for dual alternator installation From: "Treff, Arthur" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur" Listers, I'm wiring my RV-8 with Z-13. My ammeter will the embedded in the Vision MIcrosystems VM-1000 display. My questions are: 1) What would be the consequence if I connected the leads from both ammeter shunts to the VM-1000? Since both alternators would be operating at different times wouldn't the display just show the current from which ever alternator was switched on? No doubt I'm missing something, please poke holes in my logic. 2) For those who have used a primary and an E bus and a display like the VM-1000, where in the circuit did you wire the voltmeter? Any reason to have a voltmeter on the main bus as well as the E-bus? OOps, that's a dumb question, I think I just answered it myself. Current is very important to system health, but knowing if the voltage falls below alternator output (#1 or #2) is all that really matters, yes? Having said that, my logic is that putting a single voltmeter accross the pnl ground plane to the started contactor would do the job. Fire away, what am I missing? Arthur Treff Asheville, NC ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:31 AM PST US From: "Ian Scott" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: recording intercom with a digital voice recorder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ian Scott" What about minidisk, cheap, robust, small light and they can record and provide music when you need it. Ian (who will be installing a Minidisk player in the jabiru as soon as I can). -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris W Subject: AeroElectric-List: recording intercom with a digital voice recorder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chris W I would like to tie in a digital voice recorder to the intercom for 2 purposes. First to record everything while I am doing my flight training. Second to be able to play back what ATC just said. I found an adapter wire in the Aircraft Spruce catalog that you stick between the intercom and your headset plug that has electronics that convert the headphone signal down to a mic signal. That's great for recording. Then they have a CD Player adapter where you also insert the plug in between the intercom and your headset plug and then plug the little 1/8" plug into the headphone jack of a CD player or in this case the voice recorder. But then there are the cell phone adapters. Can those be connected to a voice recorder some how and record all intercom traffic? And then play it back through the intercom? Then there is the issue of mixing stereo and mono plugs. I don't really care if I loose the option to hear stereo music as long as the signal is still coming through both ears. Can some one please clear this up and let me know what the best solution is? I'm also looking for suggestions on MP3 players/voice recorders. I have also seen some MP3 player/recorders that can record from a line in signal, would that be a better solution? Has anyone seen or used these? The only one I know of right now is called a Ripflash. They have several different models. Their web site is here http://www.pogoproducts.com/ -- Chris Woodhouse 3147 SW 127th St. Oklahoma City, OK 73170 405-691-5206 chrisw@programmer.net N35 20.492' W97 34.342' "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:56 AM PST US From: "William Bernard" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Gyro Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Bernard" I've installed my electric TC and in testing it, I noticed that it would turn into a 'generator' when it was winding down after power off: LEDs on the panel would light and then gradually fade as the gyro spun down. I 'corrected' this by adding a diode to the '+' side of the connection. My question is this: Is this sort of thing normal for all electric gyros? I haven't installed the electric DG or AH yet. Would it be worth my time to install diodes in the feed wires now or is this likely a wasted effort? Thanks in advance Bill ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:41 AM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Gyro Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 6/25/2003 7:07:43 AM Mountain Daylight Time, billbernard@worldnet.att.net writes: > > I've installed my electric TC and in testing it, I noticed that it would > turn into a 'generator' when it was winding down after power off: LEDs on the > panel would light and then gradually fade as the gyro spun down. > > I 'corrected' this by adding a diode to the '+' side of the connection. My > question is this: Is this sort of thing normal for all electric gyros? I > haven't installed the electric DG or AH yet. Would it be worth my time to install > diodes in the feed wires now or is this likely a wasted effort? > > Thanks in advance > > Wow,,, Now that is bizarre for sure. But it does sound plausible. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:31 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Gyro Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:09 AM 6/25/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Bernard" > > >I've installed my electric TC and in testing it, I noticed that it would >turn into a 'generator' when it was winding down after power off: LEDs on >the panel would light and then gradually fade as the gyro spun down. First, why is this a concern? Sounds like your bus is VERY lightly loaded during power-down else the tiny amount of energy stored in the gyro rotor wouldn't provide so noticeable an effect. LEDs will produce visible light at very low excitation levels . . . you wouldn't see this effect at all were your lamps of the incandescent type . . . aside from the noticed effect while powering down, why is it a bad thing and why increase parts count and reduce performance on gyro by adding a diode? >I 'corrected' this by adding a diode to the '+' side of the connection. My >question is this: Is this sort of thing normal for all electric gyros? I >haven't installed the electric DG or AH yet. Would it be worth my time to >install diodes in the feed wires now or is this likely a wasted effort? Depends on the instrument. If the motor is brush-type dc motor (some turn coordinators are) then the motor will "generate" too. If the motor is an ac induction device, then the instrument includes an inverter to power the ac motor from the dc bus. The best gyros are of this design and will not "generate" . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring VM1000 for dual alternator installation --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:32 AM 6/25/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur" > > >Listers, > >I'm wiring my RV-8 with Z-13. My ammeter will the embedded in the Vision >MIcrosystems VM-1000 display. > >My questions are: >1) What would be the consequence if I connected the leads from both >ammeter shunts to the VM-1000? Since both alternators would be operating >at different times wouldn't the display just show the current from which >ever alternator was switched on? No doubt I'm missing something, please >poke holes in my logic. the VM1000 uses hall effect sensors, not shunts. You can connect the three wires so that both sensors are powered up all the time but you need a switch in the signal lead to swap the instrument between sensors. >2) For those who have used a primary and an E bus and a display like the >VM-1000, where in the circuit did you wire the voltmeter? Any reason to >have a voltmeter on the main bus as well as the E-bus? OOps, that's a >dumb question, I think I just answered it myself. Current is very >important to system health, but knowing if the voltage falls below >alternator output (#1 or #2) is all that really matters, yes? Having said >that, my logic is that putting a single voltmeter accross the pnl ground >plane to the started contactor would do the job. Fire away, what am I missing? since the VM-1000 doesn't help you get from point A to point B, I'd put it on the main bus and let it go dark during battery only ops. One might argue that you need a voltmeter on the endurance bus 'cause it's the battery's "gas gage" but if you've done your load analysis versus battery size -AND- you do reasonable periodic maintenance on the battery, then there is zero concern for getting airport in sight battery only, even if your alternator crapped 5 minutes after departure. Your engine isn't going to quit running because it isn't being monitored. If there are things the VM-1000 can do for you en route, they are very short duration activities that can be covered by momentarily turning the master switch on. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: isolated ground wire for avionics in metal airplane --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:37 PM 6/24/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CardinalNSB@aol.com > >Would I see any benefit or detriment to using a dedicated ground wire for my >avionics in my metal airplane, isolated from the metal airframe? Thanks, Skip Ground is ground is ground . . . at some point in time the avionics gets connected to the airframe. Some installers have an "avionics" ground on the stack at the panel and then connect the remote ground bus to the firewall ground bus with a suite of 2 to 4 wires (for redundancy) . . . Unless you're building a LA4P with a bizillion electro-whizzies on the panel, individual ground wires to the firewall ground bus minimizes parts count and maximizes system reliability. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:41 AM PST US From: "Neville Kilford" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Gyro Corp turn co-ordinator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" Hi guys, Does anyone have any experience of the EGC turn co-ordinators? They look pretty good, but anyone know how they are electrical noise-wise? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Cheers. Nev -- Jodel D-150 in progress UK ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:09 AM PST US From: "Neville Kilford" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ring terminal sizes for contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" Hi guys, Does anyone know what size studs are required for the contactors? In metric they're M5 & M8, but I only see imperial sizes on Bob's order form. The M8 one converts to .31" or so, but what about the M5? It's smaller than .25", so perhaps it's #10, #8, or #6, but I've no idea what those mean! Any help would be appreciated. Cheeers. Nev ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:06 AM PST US From: "Gilles.Thesee" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ring terminal sizes for contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" ----- Message d'origine ----- De : "Neville Kilford" : Envoy : mercredi 25 juin 2003 17:44 Objet : AeroElectric-List: Ring terminal sizes for contactors > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" > > Hi guys, > > Does anyone know what size studs are required for the contactors? In metric > they're M5 & M8, but I only see imperial sizes on Bob's order form. > > The M8 one converts to .31" or so, but what about the M5? It's smaller than > .25", so perhaps it's #10, #8, or #6, but I've no idea what those mean! > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Cheeers. > Nev Neville, M 8 studs perfectly fit 5/16 (or .31") terminals M5 will be OK with # 10 terminals Hope this helps, Gilles Thesee Metric since French revolution ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:09 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ring terminal sizes for contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:44 PM 6/25/2003 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" > > >Hi guys, > >Does anyone know what size studs are required for the contactors? In metric >they're M5 & M8, but I only see imperial sizes on Bob's order form. > >The M8 one converts to .31" or so, but what about the M5? It's smaller than >.25", so perhaps it's #10, #8, or #6, but I've no idea what those mean! An "M" size is in approx millimeters. A millimeter is about 0.040" An M8 would be therefore about 0.32", an M5 is about 0.20" See http://216.55.140.222/temp/Tap_and_Clearance_Drill.pdf for a list of tap and clearance drill sizes for the vairious screw sizes. Note that a free fit on a #6 screw is a #25 drill (0.145") if one were to convert this to millimeters, it would be an M3.7 If you go to http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/TE/bin/TE.Connect?S=13836&M=FEAT&LG=1&I=13 you'll find a listing of terminal sizes offered in the PIDG series from AMP. Note the data fields labeled "Stud Diameter" and "Stud Size" You can order a terminal sized in mm/in format or by screw size (#4, #6, etc.) Does this help? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Is the E-Bus that Essential? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:52 PM 6/24/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Whitaker > >Gang, > >Up to this point, I have been planning to wire up my RV-9 >according to Fig. Z-11A. My understanding is the essential >bus would be used to conserve power during an alternator out >condition. > >However, almost all of the things that I plan to hang off of the >main power distribution bus are switched. Therefore, I could >turn off the "non-essential" equipment to conserve battery >capacity. This being the case, do I need an E-bus? > >I'm probably missing another good reason for wiring up a >separate E-bus as shown on Fig. Z-11A. > >Please shoot holes in my logic before I shoot a hole in >my foot! There has been a lot written about this . . . in fact, the bus is more properly called the "endurance" bus. Check out chapter 17 of the 'Connection which you can download at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch17-9.pdf By the way, Mr. Martin Gomez (who was so kind as to share his experience with us) was told that I'd used his story as but one of multitudinous illustrations of how certified systems architecture and mind-set boxes us into stupid and unnecessary situations. I invited him to read the chapter cited above. He contacted me again later and offer the following: I just read the chapter. You were right on! I often thought before and after my little fiasco that our electrical systems were fine in the days when the Piper J-3 was a typical light airplane. Now that we expect to fly in miserable weather, relying on our avionics, it's nuts to still have the same electrical system. I, too, am an engineer (BS in aero, M.Eng. in EE, MS in Applied Physics), with 20 years of experience. Of that, 9 was at a UAV company. We once lost a UAV because of an alternator overvoltage...3 years after my emergency, and after I had implored the avionics designers to split the bus in two. One of my hobbies is that I collect flight manuals for airplanes that I'll never get to fly, including jet fighters, airliners, etc. They do NOT put all their eggs in one basket. It seems silly to have two radios (say) and put both on the same bus so that one failure can zap them both. I am indeed considering building an airplane. My current choice is an RV-7. And you can bet that it will have a non- standard electrical system! In fact, it was on the Van's Airforce Yahoo group that I learned about you, and was told that you used my AOPA article. I would love a copy of your book, but if I'm going to benefit from your experience, I ought to pay for it. Regards, Martin Martin Gomezmlg28@cornell.edu A day later his order came in for the book. The e-buss is more than load reduction . . . it's a DUAL path distribution structure to keep minimal en-route operational equipment going until airport is in sight and do it battery-only for duration of fuel aboard. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:55 AM PST US From: "Neville Kilford" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ring terminal sizes for contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" Great! Thanks, Gilles. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles.Thesee" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ring terminal sizes for contactors > ----- Message d'origine ----- > De : "Neville Kilford" > : > Envoy : mercredi 25 juin 2003 17:44 > Objet : AeroElectric-List: Ring terminal sizes for contactors > > > > Does anyone know what size studs are required for the contactors? In > metric > > they're M5 & M8, but I only see imperial sizes on Bob's order form. > > > > The M8 one converts to .31" or so, but what about the M5? It's smaller > than > > .25", so perhaps it's #10, #8, or #6, but I've no idea what those mean! > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > M 8 studs perfectly fit 5/16 (or .31") terminals > M5 will be OK with # 10 terminals > Hope this helps, > > > Gilles Thesee > Metric since French revolution >