---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/26/03: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:14 AM - GPS antenna performance (test results) (Neville Kilford) 2. 04:30 AM - Gyros (Steve Glasgow) 3. 04:35 AM - Re: Breakers & disable switches (Neville Kilford) 4. 04:47 AM - Re: Panel layout - request for comments (Neville Kilford) 5. 05:34 AM - Re: Panel layout - request for comments (Gerry Holland) 6. 06:55 AM - Re: GPS antenna performance (test results) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 07:24 AM - Re: Gyros (Bruce Gray) 8. 02:21 PM - Re: batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 02:36 PM - Re: GPS antenna performance (test results) (James E. Clark) 10. 05:01 PM - LED landing lights (Eric M. Jones) 11. 07:45 PM - Re: GPS antenna performance (test results) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 09:58 PM - Over Voltage protection, figure 6.2 (mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com) 13. 11:23 PM - Sigtronics SPA-400 interface with microair radio (Ian Scott) 14. 11:24 PM - Miniflow L Shadin (Ian Scott) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:06 AM PST US From: "Neville Kilford" Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS antenna performance (test results) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" I've seen a few questions about how GPS antenna performance is affected inside a structure, so I thought I'd do some experiments and see just how it performs. I took a Mastercom GPS151-3 external GPS antenna, and hooked it up to a Garmin GPS III Pilot. The GPS has signal strength meters for each satellite that are quite sensitive. Certainly it's easy to spot a change in signal strength within a percent or two. First I stood in the field, holding the GPS antenna up in the air, and noted the signal strengths. It's the first time I've ever used an external antenna, and I was stunned at the reception!! Eight or so satellites at strengths up to 100%!! A far cry from using the thing inside a metal plane... Anyway, then I got a small plywood box. It's made from 5mm gaboon (mahogany) ply with sitka spruce corners. I fitted the aerial inside the box and held up in the air again. No discernible change in reception. This pleased me no end, because it means I can feel quite happy about putting the antenna inside the Jodel. For the fibreglass test, I took the bottom cowling and held the aerial up inside that while holding it all up in the air. Whilst the cowling wasn't completely enclosing, it was domed such that only signals coming up from the ground could reach the antenna. The horizon and sky were not visible to the antenna, except through the cowling fibreglass. Again, there was no discernible change in reception on the GPS. Finally, I made a small aluminium box, from 2mm commercial grade aluminium, put the aerial inside and held that up in the air. No reception whatsoever!! Although, I suppose, it's obvious really, I had rather thought that *some* signal would get through, but it didn't. Anyway, that's enough for now. I know it's not the most scientific experiment, and that I can't quote signal strengths or anything, so take from it what you will. Hope it helps you guys when deciding where to put your GPS antenna. Cheers. Nev -- Jodel D150 in progress UK ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:06 AM PST US From: "Steve Glasgow" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Gyros --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" Does anyone have any experience with Falcon AH and DG. I understand they are made in China and are clones of the RC Allen gyros. They are guaranteed for 1 year but not TSO'd. Any INFO would be greatly appreciated. Steve Glasgow ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:41 AM PST US From: "Neville Kilford" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Breakers & disable switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" Terry, You've done it now! If Bob sees a note saying that another manufacturer wants to switch off equipment during cranking, there will be trouble The same thing happened with the EI engine monitor. There was a dialogue between Bob and EI, in which he asked them for justification for their similar request. They couldn't say why except that they thought it might be damaging. Bob asked them for some evidence, but to no avail. Anyway, like you, I decided to go for a single switch, rather than have an avionics bus, a regular ATC fuse, and have run it off the main bus. Your arrangement might be different if it's going to be your primary flight instrumentation. Cheers. Nev -- Jodel D150 in progress UK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Watson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Breakers & disable switches > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > I have just about figured out the wiring diagram for my RV-8A, and I had a > couple of questions. I will be using a version of Bob's Z-11 generic light > aircraft electrical system with fuse blocks and an E-bus. > > First question: Blue Mountain Avionics wants me to turn off their EFIS/1 > system to start, or have it on a separate electrical system. If I put an > on-off switch for the EFIS system, might that just as well be a breaker > switch, and if so, should it come off the E-bus, or just off the battery > with a fusible link? > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:01 AM PST US From: "Neville Kilford" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout - request for comments --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" Tony, Thanks for your note. You're right about the two-seat side-by-side config. I should have said that in my note!! Currently, I am going for vacuum instruments. If I go with the EI UBG-16, it will monitor vacuum depth. Funny you should ask about the Dynon system -- Gerry Holland (also on this list) mentioned that he's really pleased with his, and it seems quite economical too. This might seem like a bizarre objection, but I can't seem to come up with a nice-looking panel replacing "normal" instruments with the Dynon, even though it's really tempting to go for it. > I think I would put the annunciator panel a little more centrally to the pilots field of vision. This is a good point. Originally I had it planned for a long row of eight lights along the top of the panel. I might still go for that, but cutting such a bit slot might weaken the panel somewhat, as it's quite thin matl with a folded stiffener along the top. > You show a position for a future tach but it looks like you already have a tach to > the right of the VSI. Were you thinking you might move it and put a second > VOR head there in the future? Spot on! Exactly my thoughts. I've seen the NARCO integrated VOR radio and indicator, which seems like a good idea for those of us with limited panel space. I figured I could move the tacho in the future if I need to. Cheers. Nev ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Babb" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout - request for comments > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Babb" > > Nev, > > Looks like the Jodel D150 is a side by side configuration. The comments > below assume this. I'm no expert and have not even designed yet alone built > the panel on my Velocity so the comments below are based on my few hundred > hours in various rented planes and lots of dreaming so take them for what > they're worth. > > I notice you have the standard 6-pack of primary flight instruments. Are you > considering using vacuum gyro and A/H instruments? If so you may want to > consider a vacuum gauge. Have you thought about an all, or mostly, glass > panel? Perhaps the Dynon D10 could replace your 6-pack, or maybe the Blue > Mountain EFIS/Lite?. I think I would put the annunciator panel a little more > centrally to the pilots field of vision. You show a position for a future > tach but it looks like you already have a tach to the right of the VSI. Were > you thinking you might move it and put a second VOR head there in the > future? > > Sorry I don't have any good answers for you, I'm still puzzling over my > options too. > > Tony > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Neville Kilford" > To: > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout - request for comments > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" > > > > > I've a grand total of sixty hours flying time, and here am I trying to put > > together a panel that will last me for about forty years of flying! I > guess > > many people on this list have a great deal of flying experience, and > > therefore I'd be very grateful if you would have a squint at my proposed > > panel layout and make any comments. > > > > http://etravel.org/images/panel.gif (29kB) > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout - request for comments From: Gerry Holland --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland Nev Hi! >Funny you should ask about the Dynon system -- > Gerry Holland (also on this list) mentioned that he's really pleased with > his, and it seems quite economical too. This might seem like a bizarre > objection, but I can't seem to come up with a nice-looking panel replacing > "normal" instruments with the Dynon, even though it's really tempting to go > for it. Jodel pilots have to be bizarre.... It's a French Aeroplane!!! On a more serious note. It may look better if you 'flush' mount the Dynon albeit you'll need another 2 cm deeper into rear of panel. I think the secret when combining EFIS with conventional is 'spacing'. Another option is to move the conventional Instruments to P2 side for emergency and go with EFIS as VFR primary display. Note: In UK we are only allowed to operate daylight VFR. The Dynon is excellent value for money. Regards Gerry ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antenna performance (test results) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:14 PM 7/26/2003 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" > > >I've seen a few questions about how GPS antenna performance is affected >inside a structure, so I thought I'd do some experiments and see just how it >performs. > >I took a Mastercom GPS151-3 external GPS antenna, and hooked it up to a >Garmin GPS III Pilot. The GPS has signal strength meters for each satellite >that are quite sensitive. Certainly it's easy to spot a change in signal >strength within a percent or two. > >First I stood in the field, holding the GPS antenna up in the air, and noted >the signal strengths. It's the first time I've ever used an external >antenna, and I was stunned at the reception!! Eight or so satellites at >strengths up to 100%!! A far cry from using the thing inside a metal >plane... > >Anyway, then I got a small plywood box. It's made from 5mm gaboon (mahogany) >ply with sitka spruce corners. I fitted the aerial inside the box and held >up in the air again. No discernible change in reception. This pleased me no >end, because it means I can feel quite happy about putting the antenna inside >the Jodel. > >For the fibreglass test, I took the bottom cowling and held the aerial up >inside that while holding it all up in the air. Whilst the cowling wasn't >completely enclosing, it was domed such that only signals coming up from the >ground could reach the antenna. The horizon and sky were not visible to the >antenna, except through the cowling fibreglass. Again, there was no >discernible change in reception on the GPS. > >Finally, I made a small aluminium box, from 2mm commercial grade aluminium, >put the aerial inside and held that up in the air. No reception whatsoever!! >Although, I suppose, it's obvious really, I had rather thought that *some* >signal would get through, but it didn't. > >Anyway, that's enough for now. I know it's not the most scientific >experiment, and that I can't quote signal strengths or anything, so take from >it what you will. Hope it helps you guys when deciding where to put your GPS >antenna. > >Cheers. > >Nev Good for you sir! There is no act that generates more valuable information than the repeatable experiment. Thank you for taking the time to deduce the question, design the experiment, conduct the experiment and post the results. Anyone should be able to repeat your actions and either confirm or contest the results. Dialog between multiple experimenters is how sound principals are sifted out of informational noise and chaos in which we are immersed. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:42 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Gyros --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Poor quality, poor service, not worth the money. Buy American! Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Glasgow Subject: AeroElectric-List: Gyros --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" Does anyone have any experience with Falcon AH and DG. I understand they are made in China and are clones of the RC Allen gyros. They are guaranteed for 1 year but not TSO'd. Any INFO would be greatly appreciated. Steve Glasgow ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:32 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:30 PM 7/25/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "C J Heitman" > >Robert L. Nuckolls wrote: > > Understand . . . and everything you say is true. But my question > is, how is it significant to anyone's deliberations on component > selection for building their airplane? > >Bob, > >I think you may have missed my point. I have no problem with Panasonic >batteries in airplanes. I only wanted to point out the reason for the price >difference. Okay, I missed that and it showed in my posting. I'm pleased to hear that and apologize for any discomfort I may have caused you. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:15 PM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPS antenna performance (test results) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" Performed a smaller but similar test before putting our GPS antenna under the cowl. 99's on signal strength BEFORE putting cowl over antenna. 99's on signal strength AFTER putting cowl over antenna. Don't remember if there was a change in DOP (dilution of precision ) Figured it might work. It does. James > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert > L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 9:54 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antenna performance (test results) > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, > III" > > At 12:14 PM 7/26/2003 +0100, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" > > > > > >I've seen a few questions about how GPS antenna performance is affected > >inside a structure, so I thought I'd do some experiments and see > just how it > >performs. > > > >I took a Mastercom GPS151-3 external GPS antenna, and hooked it up to a > >Garmin GPS III Pilot. The GPS has signal strength meters for > each satellite > >that are quite sensitive. Certainly it's easy to spot a change in signal > >strength within a percent or two. > > > >First I stood in the field, holding the GPS antenna up in the > air, and noted > >the signal strengths. It's the first time I've ever used an external > >antenna, and I was stunned at the reception!! Eight or so satellites at > >strengths up to 100%!! A far cry from using the thing inside a metal > >plane... > > > >Anyway, then I got a small plywood box. It's made from 5mm > gaboon (mahogany) > >ply with sitka spruce corners. I fitted the aerial inside the > box and held > >up in the air again. No discernible change in reception. This > pleased me no > >end, because it means I can feel quite happy about putting the > antenna inside > >the Jodel. > > > >For the fibreglass test, I took the bottom cowling and held the aerial up > >inside that while holding it all up in the air. Whilst the > cowling wasn't > >completely enclosing, it was domed such that only signals coming > up from the > >ground could reach the antenna. The horizon and sky were not > visible to the > >antenna, except through the cowling fibreglass. Again, there was no > >discernible change in reception on the GPS. > > > >Finally, I made a small aluminium box, from 2mm commercial grade > aluminium, > >put the aerial inside and held that up in the air. No reception > whatsoever!! > >Although, I suppose, it's obvious really, I had rather thought > that *some* > >signal would get through, but it didn't. > > > >Anyway, that's enough for now. I know it's not the most scientific > >experiment, and that I can't quote signal strengths or anything, > so take from > >it what you will. Hope it helps you guys when deciding where to > put your GPS > >antenna. > > > >Cheers. > > > >Nev > > Good for you sir! There is no act that generates more valuable > information than the repeatable experiment. Thank you for taking > the time to deduce the question, design the experiment, conduct > the experiment and post the results. Anyone should be able > to repeat your actions and either confirm or contest the results. > Dialog between multiple experimenters is how sound principals are > sifted out of informational noise and chaos in which we are immersed. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:50 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED landing lights --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" "So for Christmas 2010 or before, your LED landing light will be ready to attach to your airplane." I said. Foolish me. The future is coming even faster than I believed possible. 15000 millicandela white LEDs with a 15 degree beam are available for (much) less than $0.20 each! So that's 1000 pcs for way under $200. To avoid all the beam-candlepower nonsense, we observe that the luminous efficiency is equivalent to standard halogens (about 35 lumens/watt) so for this comparison watts are watts. Calculate 1000 leds X .030 A X 3 V = 90 Watts. "Ay, carumba!" Now you might think that an LED landing light just plugs into the old socket. And it could do that. But imagine that you just distribute the 1000 leds all over the leading edges of your airship. Now wouldn't that be a sight on short final! Also 1000 leds could be put onto a circuit board of 49 sq inches (7" X 7"). You could even just use the 1000 leds for landing and 400 leds for taxi. The possibilities are endless. Fly safely, buy my Wig-Wag (D) 'Witch Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:56 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPS antenna performance (test results) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:36 PM 7/26/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" > > >Performed a smaller but similar test before putting our GPS antenna under >the cowl. > >99's on signal strength BEFORE putting cowl over antenna. >99's on signal strength AFTER putting cowl over antenna. > >Don't remember if there was a change in DOP (dilution of precision think>) > >Figured it might work. > >It does. > >James Thank you for that data point James. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:58 PM PST US From: "mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Over Voltage protection, figure 6.2 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com" Bob (Nuckolls), I am using a Z-14 and a permanent magnet dynamo with external regulator. I am building an over voltage disconnect to disconnect B+ of the dynamo from the battery bus using your figure 6.2 as a pattern. The over voltage circuit also illuminates a dynamo disconnected LED or an under voltage warning LED on the instrument panel. In figure 6.2 you have a resistor and capacitor in series across the contacts of the disconnect relay. There is nothing on the diagram to indicate what their values should be. I have searched The AeroElectric Connection and Aeroelectric.com and have not found anything covering this detail. Do you have any recommendations for the values of C3 and R1 in the below referenced circuit? Schematic of over voltage circuit: http://flyboybob.com/images/kr2/n52bl/electric%20and%20instrument/ov001-rev1 -1.jpg The power distribution diagram shows how the over voltage disconnect fits into the wiring scheme. I am using electronic ignition powered from the essential bus. I have decided to connect the battery busses directly to the essential bus and then power the main bus from the essential bus. This allows me to shed the main bus load by opening one circuit breaker as a first step in an electrical power emergency. Power distribution diagram: http://flyboybob.com/kr2/wd0002.htm Regards, Bob Lee ______________________________ 3380 Ashton Drive Suwanee, GA 30024 Cell: (404) 538-1427 Phone: (770) 844-7511 Fax: (770) 844-7501 mailto:bob@flyboybob.com http://flyboybob.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:41 PM PST US From: "Ian Scott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Sigtronics SPA-400 interface with microair radio --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ian Scott" Hi Bob, Do you have any pointers on this intercom with this radio? Do you have a cool schematic? I already have the radio and am thinking of the sigtronics, as I can get one cheap from an aircraft dismantlers (USD $100) or so. Should I do it? And can I input things like a cd player into this intercom? thanks ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:23 PM PST US From: "Ian Scott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Miniflow L Shadin --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ian Scott" Is anyone using this with a gravity fed carbureted setup? Thanks Ian