Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:48 AM - Grounding all the wires from my panel (MikeEasley@aol.com)
2. 05:04 AM - Ammeter Shunts, Two Busses, Switches (MikeEasley@aol.com)
3. 05:27 AM - Grounding Antennas?? (Vince Ackerman)
4. 07:41 AM - Re: Ammeter Shunts, Two Busses, Switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:47 AM - Re: Grounding all the wires from my panel (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 07:50 AM - Re: Grounding Antennas?? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:54 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 08/05/03 (KahnSG@aol.com)
8. 08:09 AM - Re: Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:15 AM - Re: E-bus diode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 08/05/03 (Matt Prather)
11. 09:00 AM - Grounding all the wires from my panel - where does the block go (Ralph E. Capen)
12. 09:16 AM - Re: E-bus diode (I-Blackler, Wayne R)
13. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: E-bus diode (Matt Prather)
14. 11:41 AM - bus feed questions (Dan Checkoway)
15. 11:42 AM - Re: Grounding Antennas?? (Vince Ackerman)
16. 11:44 AM - dc motor question (Jim and Lucy)
17. 12:00 PM - Re: bus feed questions (Dan Checkoway)
18. 12:31 PM - Re: bus feed questions ()
19. 12:48 PM - Re: dc motor question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 01:01 PM - Re: bus feed questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 01:02 PM - Re: dc motor question (Jerzy Krasinski)
22. 01:56 PM - crimping connectors to 24-26 AWG wire (Charles Brame)
23. 02:05 PM - Re: bus feed questions (Dan Checkoway)
24. 02:26 PM - Re: Re: bus feed questions (Pat Hatch)
25. 03:11 PM - Re: crimping connectors to 24-26 AWG wire (Cy Galley)
26. 05:35 PM - D25 Rectifier/Diode (LarryRobertHelming)
27. 06:15 PM - Re: bus feed questions (LarryRobertHelming)
28. 08:56 PM - Re: crimping connectors to 24-26 AWG wire (Charlie Kuss)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Grounding all the wires from my panel |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com
I have a bunch of individual ground wires coming from panel, 20+. Do I
really need to run each one to a faston tab connected to my B&C ground bus on the
inside of the firewall? Or can I somehow combine them on the panel and have a
fat wire tie them to the airframe ground?
Thanks,
Mike Easley
Colorado Springs
Message 2
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| Subject: | Ammeter Shunts, Two Busses, Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com
I have an EDM900 on my panel with a single readout for amps. I want to be
able to check the amps for both busses. I have a 70 amp alternator and the B&C
20 amp. The EDM900 came with a 100 amp shunt. Do I need any special or
"matching" shunt to use on the 20 amp alternator or will the B&C 30 amp, for
example, work fine?
There are two wires feeding the EDM900 for amps. My plan was to get a DPDT
switch and feed the EDM from either shunt. Do I need to switch both wires from
the shunts or just one?
JPI shows two possible installations of the shunt, charge/discharge or load.
It seems the charge/discharge is the best way because you get more info,
but....
I don't know where to put the shunt. I have a fat #2 wire running from my
master contactor (in the rear) to my starter contactor (forward of the
firewall). From the lug on the starter contactor I have a #4 wire running back
through
the firewall to my main buss. I also have the main alternator tied to the
starter contactor lug. The JPI installation manual says to put the shunt
between the master contactor and the bus. Do I need to run my alternator feed
directly to the bus? Or is there another place I can put the shunt? I'm sure
I
don't want to cut my #2 wire feeding the starter. Any ideas?
Mike Easley
Lancair ES
Colorado Springs
Message 3
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| Subject: | Grounding Antennas?? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vince Ackerman <vack@mac.com>
I'm mounting my VHF and GPS antennas on the tailboom of a Rotorway 162f
helo and I need some advice. The tailboom is about 16 inches in
diameter (aluminum skin) and since the base of the antennas is flat
I've made a transition base out of TAP epoxy putty that matches the
curve. This results in the antenna sitting about 3/8 inch above the
skin. The 4 bolts on each antenna go through this base and the skin and
a backing plate. Do I need to ground the antennas somehow? If so, what
would be the best way to do this?
Thanks, this list has helped a lot in the past.
Vince Ackerman
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunts, Two Busses, Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:03 AM 8/6/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com
>
>I have an EDM900 on my panel with a single readout for amps. I want to be
>able to check the amps for both busses. I have a 70 amp alternator and
>the B&C
>20 amp. The EDM900 came with a 100 amp shunt. Do I need any special or
>"matching" shunt to use on the 20 amp alternator or will the B&C 30 amp, for
>example, work fine?
A "shunt" is a precision, zero-temperature coefficient resistor
designed for tolerable heat rise with LARGE currents flowing through
it. Years ago, a sort of standard was adopted for sizing shunts such
that when a current equal to their rating was impressed upon them, the
voltage drop would be 50 mV. This was a compromise between keeping
the ENERGY lost in the shunt to some reasonable value and industry
ability to fabricate instruments that would read full scale at 50 mV.
If you want your instrument to read out in absolute amps, then you
will need to use the same shunt for both measurements . . . in this
case, 100A shunts for both systems . . .
Now, given that your instrument reads a full scale "100" with
50 mV applied offers an opportunity to scale the instrument
differently. If you use a 70A shunt on the big alternator, then
the instrument will read 100 when the alternator is delivering
100% of its capacity. It follows then that you install a 20A
shunt in series with the other alternator and again, the instrument
will read "100" when that alternator is running at max capacity.
Intuitively, this makes more sense to me when you want one
display to read multiple energy sources . . . it's more useful
to know how much of the source capacity you've used (got left)
than to know how many amps are being drawn from the device. Further,
it allows a single instrument to read energy sources of different
size using the same scale factor. 100% of capacity is just as
meaningful on an SD-8 alternator as it is on a 120A fire breather.
>There are two wires feeding the EDM900 for amps. My plan was to get a DPDT
>switch and feed the EDM from either shunt. Do I need to switch both wires
>from
>the shunts or just one?
BOTH!!!! Switching just one will get you blown fuses . . . you ARE
planning to fuse your ammeter leads . . . aren't you?
>JPI shows two possible installations of the shunt, charge/discharge or load.
>It seems the charge/discharge is the best way because you get more info,
>but....
How is the charge/discharge reading richer in information than
a loadmeter?
>I don't know where to put the shunt. I have a fat #2 wire running from my
>master contactor (in the rear) to my starter contactor (forward of the
>firewall). From the lug on the starter contactor I have a #4 wire running
>back through
>the firewall to my main buss. I also have the main alternator tied to the
>starter contactor lug. The JPI installation manual says to put the shunt
>between the master contactor and the bus. Do I need to run my alternator
>feed
>directly to the bus? Or is there another place I can put the shunt? I'm
>sure I
>don't want to cut my #2 wire feeding the starter. Any ideas?
Sure, check out the wiring diagrams in Appendix Z. I'll suggest that
a charge/discharge battery ammeter is no more "useful" than an
alternator load meter. ANY and ALL electrical system instrumentation
is useful only as a diagnostic tool . . . and I think we're agreed
that diagnostics are best left for the maintenance hangar.
If you have ov protection, a low voltage warning light and battery(ies)
sized and maintained for guaranteed endurance sans alternator, then
the airplane is perfectly operable with no additional instrumentation.
If things are not going right, presence of the instruments on the
panel are of no value to you as a pilot unless your battery is
four years old. Voltmeters are then quite useful to gage the
enthusiasm with which you exercise mental butt-kicking on your
hurried decent to the nearest airport.
If it were my airplane and I had both panel space, budget and
enthusiasm for installing electrical system diagnostics on
the panel . . . the 100A JPI would be switched between
alternators - each fitted with shunts sized to the machine.
A voltmeter would read the e-bus (or aux/main buses if you
are doing Z-14) and be fitted with a switch so that I could
also read field voltage of either alternator. That way, while
on taxi to the hangar, I could flip a few switches and
know exactly what needs to be fixed/replaced before I shut
the engine down.
A convenience at best . . . you can make the same measurements
with your shop equipment when you're ready to pull the cowl.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding all the wires from my panel |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:47 AM 8/6/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com
>
>I have a bunch of individual ground wires coming from panel, 20+. Do I
>really need to run each one to a faston tab connected to my B&C ground bus
>on the
>inside of the firewall? Or can I somehow combine them on the panel and
>have a
>fat wire tie them to the airframe ground?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike Easley
>Colorado Springs
"Need" is hard to define with certainty. It is good
"practice" to run each wire to the single point ground
out of consideration for potential noise problems -and-
overall system reliability.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Antennas?? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:26 AM 8/6/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vince Ackerman <vack@mac.com>
>
>I'm mounting my VHF and GPS antennas on the tailboom of a Rotorway 162f
>helo and I need some advice. The tailboom is about 16 inches in
>diameter (aluminum skin) and since the base of the antennas is flat
>I've made a transition base out of TAP epoxy putty that matches the
>curve. This results in the antenna sitting about 3/8 inch above the
>skin. The 4 bolts on each antenna go through this base and the skin and
>a backing plate. Do I need to ground the antennas somehow? If so, what
>would be the best way to do this?
>
>Thanks, this list has helped a lot in the past.
The bolts are sufficient to effect ground the antenna base.
Clean the surfaces under the bolt heads and under the nuts.
Tighten as much as the epoxy spacer will allow. Use internal
tooth lockwashers under both bolt head and nut.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 08/05/03 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KahnSG@aol.com
I too have seen the "searching for service" or "no service" as Bob has seen
when in my plane. Yet I know that when I have been in a car on the ground in
the same location I have had a perfect signal. When I tried to do 360 degree
circles at a slow speed I was able to lock on and get a signal.
I believe the problem is that I am taveling at a such a great speed from
tower to tower that the system can not lock on long enough to verify the signal.
Steve
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:58 PM 8/5/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>I am building an RV7 (in England) with a Lycoming IOF-360 (FADEC, The FADEC
>comes with its own battery to power the FADEC in case of main electrical
>systems failure. I am planning to use your excellent architecture in
>Appendix Z to your manual with B&C Alternators etc. As this is my first
>stab at aircraft electrics I have some silly questions that you have
>probably answered a thousand times!
>
>1. Why are the Alternator B leads connected to the Starter contactor? If
>they were connected to the Battery contactor (output side) there would be
>one less bolted connection (and hence less resistance)?
Main bus power is taken from the handiest place nearest
the bus. If the battery is in the tail, then the starter
contactor is best place. If battery is up front, then
either starter contactor or battery contactor can be
considered.
>2. Is there any issue with someone turning on the Aux Alternator bus feed
>switch with the Main Alternator running ok, and if not, why not just have
>both running all the time and therefore remove the requirement to switch on
>the Aux alt in case of main alt failure?
That is exactly what happens in certified ships. Figure Z-12
is not recommended for new design. It's an easy fix to add a
second alternator to an existing airplane. This this case, both
alternators are ON but the aux alternator regulator is set
for about 1 volt below normal bus voltage. Soooo . . . with
the main alternator working, the aux alternator relaxes.
If the main alternator quits, the bus voltage sags, the
aux alternator comes alive automatically. The SB-1 reglator
is fitted with a circuit to illuminate an "AUX ALT LOADED"
warning light and flash it if the aux alternator output
is higher than 20A . . . reduce load until light stops
flashing.
>3. I understand your logic regarding the use of a Diode (rather than a
>switch) between the main and essential bus. Really stupid question: Why
>have the diode at all and have the essential bus permanently fed through the
>battery bus (keeping the e-bus alternative feed switch of course to isolate
>on close down)?
You want two, relatively independent feed paths for
the e-bus. Minimize the probability of single failure
taking this bus down.
>4. Have thought long and hard regarding your ideas on cct breakers vs
>fuses,
>not quite made my mind up yet - like the idea of being able to pull cct
>breakers if equipment plays up (but could of course put in a switch on the
>panel!)You show a mixture of Switches and cct breakers on Appendix Z, any
>particular reason (fuses on battery bus and breakers on main power bus)?
Nope, the Z-figures are illustrative of options . . . they
are not intended to depict details of any particular system.
Once you're satisfied with a particular architecture, then
exactly what runs from each bus, whether you use breakers
or fuses, and selection of switches are all personal
decisions.
What devices in your proposed system have even a remote
possibility of failure in a way that encourages you to
interrupt power by pulling a breaker?
>5. I completely agree with your logic regarding old fashioned dual
>avionics/master switch. Is there any real issue regarding spikes on start
>up and so should I have switches for all equipment that does not have its
>own internal switches (there would be lots!) or is this an old wives tale
>and should I not worry and connect all my non essential, not switched,
>equipment directly to the main power bus.
Can't speak for you but it doesn't worry me . . . I
know that it's easy to build a system totally
free of hazards to any product designed to live
in airplanes (or any other vehicle).
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
Message 9
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boeing.com>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:04 PM 8/4/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>Thanks for the speedy reply.
>
>Aircraft is an IO-360 powered Long EZ, and is all electric (Z12) converted
>from Z13 to save weight.
How did Z-12 get "lighter" than Z-13?
> The aircraft has an B&C LR14 regulated SD-20 backup alternator and B&C
> LR14 regulated 40A Denso Alternator (B&C clone) installed. I have dual
> Lightspeed ignition supported on a hot battery bus fed through two 5A
> switch breakers on the panel.
Why switch breakers? Circuit needs to be protected at the battery
bus . . . once you have protection at the source of power, no further
protection is needed.
>The plan was/is to fly it home to Australia in 2005, and hence it may be
>pretty loaded for the trip. Currently the 20A is not required however I
>would like to 'build in' what I can now (without added too many pounds).
>
>Currently...
>
>E-bus: Electric Nose Gear (no real numbers on draw at this stage, but
>fused at 10A), Comm (fused at 2A), Dynon EFIS (2A), AV10 Engine monitor
>(all in one engine instrumentation) (2A).
Suppose we changed the name of the "essential" bus to "endurance"
bus, how would this change current and/or future planning for
things you tie onto the bus?
>Main pwr bus: Contactor 0.8A, 2 Alternator Fields (fused at 5A),
Alternators fields get breakers too.
> 2 regulators (LV fused at 2A), Landing brake (speed brake) 7 1/2A,
> external lighting (fused at 10A x 2), rocky mountain encoder, GPS, XPDR,
> Fuel pump, Intercom, Starter Contactor, pitot heat, pitch trim (2A), CD player.
>
>Batt(hot) bus: Dual LSE Ignition both fused at 5A, Map light, cigarette
>lighter socket (handheld GPS or NAV/Comm).
>
>In the future: Heater system, 2nd Comm, 2nd GPS, 1 VOR/ILS/LOC, backup
>horizon (electric), Autopilot etc.
What size battery do you propose?
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 08/05/03 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Maybe... I have an alternate theory. I don't know what kind of
antenna they use on the cell towers, but it would make sense to
me that they would design them with a radiation pattern that had
the highest strength in the horizontal axis, at the expense of
that in the vertical axis. Being significantly above the towers
would place you in the null region of reception.
The idea that you get kicked off the cell net because of being
connected to too many towers is probably more likely. Evem with
a really flat radiation pattern you would be within line of site
of many towers, so at a low enough angle to provide useful signal
strength.
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
do not archive
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KahnSG@aol.com
>
> I too have seen the "searching for service" or "no service" as Bob has
> seen when in my plane. Yet I know that when I have been in a car on the
> ground in the same location I have had a perfect signal. When I tried
> to do 360 degree circles at a slow speed I was able to lock on and get
> a signal.
> I believe the problem is that I am taveling at a such a great speed from
> tower to tower that the system can not lock on long enough to verify
> the signal.
>
> Steve
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Grounding all the wires from my panel - where does |
the block go
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
Fellow listers....
I have the ground block that goes on the inside of the firewall - and the part
that goes on the outside of the firewall.
The question that I have is where on the firewall should it go?
I already have a spot reserved for the brake fluid reservoir, and my heater inlets,
but still have to consider things like voltage regulators (maybe they should
go inside - but where?), throttle/mixture (AFP FI), prop (MT gov).
Where have you guys put it and did you later enjoy/regret your choices and why?
Thanks,
Ralph Capen
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" <wayne.blackler@boeing.com>
Thanks Bob, your critique is most welcomed, further answers below:
>Aircraft is an IO-360 powered Long EZ, and is all electric (Z12) converted
>from Z13 to save weight.
How did Z-12 get "lighter" than Z-13?
WB: Oops, the change was actually from Z14 to Z12. The Z14 was gross overkill for
my Long EZ, and given I retained the 2 alternators, I felt that a failed battery
condition was remote at best. The change was prompted by preliminary weights
on my EZ and an email on single bat/dual alt by Norm Howell some time ago.
The modification to Z12 was the simplest to do in terms of modifying Z14 and
tying in the SD-20.
> The aircraft has a B&C LR14 regulated SD-20 backup alternator and B&C
> LR14 regulated 40A Denso Alternator (B&C clone) installed. I have dual
> Lightspeed ignition supported on a hot battery bus fed through two 5A
> switch breakers on the panel.
Why switch breakers? Circuit needs to be protected at the battery
bus . . . once you have protection at the source of power, no further
protection is needed.
WB: I have a fuse block for the hot battery bus down near my toes in the aeroplane's
nose. For what it's worth, I guess I just want access to ignition protection.
Currently I have individual 16# wires running from the hot side of the bat
contactor to the 5A switch/breakers, and then 20# back to the Lightspeed boxes
mounted above the spar. I'm trying to minimise a failure condition in the
run from batt to breaker. Is this an acceptable practice?
>The plan was/is to fly it home to Australia in 2005, and hence it may be
>pretty loaded for the trip. Currently the 20A is not required however I
>would like to 'build in' what I can now (without added too many pounds).
>
>Currently...
>
>E-bus: Electric Nose Gear (no real numbers on draw at this stage, but
>fused at 10A), Comm (fused at 2A), Dynon EFIS (2A), AV10 Engine monitor
>(all in one engine instrumentation) (2A).
Suppose we changed the name of the "essential" bus to "endurance"
bus, how would this change current and/or future planning for
things you tie onto the bus?
WB: I could add manual retraction to the nose gear and use a battery operated handheld
comm, but both gear and ship comm are used sparingly (once) in 'endurance
mode'. The AV10 gives me all engine/electrical parameters including fire detection
under the cowl and the Dynon all pitot/static all for what I would consider
a minimum current draw.
>Main pwr bus: Contactor 0.8A, 2 Alternator Fields (fused at 5A),
Alternators fields get breakers too.
WB: I have two breakers on this bus, one for each alt, 5A each, exactly per Z12.
> 2 regulators (LV fused at 2A), Landing brake (speed brake) 7 1/2A,
> external lighting (fused at 10A x 2), rocky mountain encoder, GPS, XPDR,
> Fuel pump, Intercom, Starter Contactor, pitot heat, pitch trim (2A), CD player.
>
>Batt(hot) bus: Dual LSE Ignition both fused at 5A, Map light, cigarette
>lighter socket (handheld GPS or NAV/Comm).
>
>In the future: Heater system, 2nd Comm, 2nd GPS, 1 VOR/ILS/LOC, backup
>horizon (electric), Autopilot etc.
What size battery do you propose?
WB: Currently I have a 12V 16AH RG Unit. Engine runs are next...
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RE: E-bus diode |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Sounds like a nifty project... Just one comment below.
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "I-Blackler, Wayne R"
> <wayne.blackler@boeing.com>
>
> Thanks Bob, your critique is most welcomed, further answers below:
>
snip
>>
>>E-bus: Electric Nose Gear (no real numbers on draw at this stage, but
>> fused at 10A), Comm (fused at 2A), Dynon EFIS (2A), AV10 Engine monitor
>> (all in one engine instrumentation) (2A).
>
> Suppose we changed the name of the "essential" bus to "endurance"
> bus, how would this change current and/or future planning for
> things you tie onto the bus?
>
> WB: I could add manual retraction to the nose gear and use a battery
> operated handheld comm, but both gear and ship comm are used sparingly
> (once) in 'endurance mode'. The AV10 gives me all engine/electrical
> parameters including fire detection under the cowl and the Dynon all
> pitot/static all for what I would consider a minimum current draw.
>
snip
You could get away with running the retract breaker from the main
bus. Turning off the main bus in order to operate in the endurance
mode doesn't preclude you from re-energizing it just prior to landing
This would allow you to operate the more power-hungry components for
the pre-landing period. And it would allow you to lighten up the e-bus
power budget.
Regards,
Matt Prather
VE N34RD
Message 14
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| Subject: | bus feed questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
I've built my RV-7 electrical system pretty much exactly to Figure Z-11.
Everything seems to work great with the exception of something that's been
nagging me.
When I feed the e-bus via the alternate (battery) feed, the turn coordinator
spins audibly faster than when I'm running everything off the main bus
(feeding the e-bus through the D-25 diode). It's not just slightly...it's
*noticeably* faster (higher pitch) when powering the e-bus directly off the
battery.
NOTE: this is in my garage running off the battery alone (engine/alternator
are not running).
I have tested this when powering nothing off the main bus, just feeding to
the e-bus, so it's not like there's any real additional load on the battery.
So my assumptions are:
1) The battery contactor, which draws 720-750mA according to a current draw
test I did before wiring all this up, is making the difference in load?
2) I have wired the D-25 diode incorrectly. I was more than a little
confused about the orientation of the terminals, since mine didn't match up
exactly with Bob's Z-11 diagram. Is it possible to wire it so that it
places a load on the system?
Any advice is much appreciated.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Antennas?? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vince Ackerman <vack@mac.com>
Thanks Bob,
Both antennas are painted white inside the bolt holes. Will I need to
remove this? They both came with rubber gaskets for the bottom surface
so I was wondering, along with the paint, how they are normally
grounded.
Vince Ackerman
On Wednesday, Aug 6, 2003, at 07:50 US/Pacific, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 05:26 AM 8/6/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vince Ackerman <vack@mac.com>
>>
>> I'm mounting my VHF and GPS antennas on the tailboom of a Rotorway
>> 162f
>> helo and I need some advice. The tailboom is about 16 inches in
>> diameter (aluminum skin) and since the base of the antennas is flat
>> I've made a transition base out of TAP epoxy putty that matches the
>> curve. This results in the antenna sitting about 3/8 inch above the
>> skin. The 4 bolts on each antenna go through this base and the skin
>> and
>> a backing plate. Do I need to ground the antennas somehow? If so, what
>> would be the best way to do this?
>>
>> Thanks, this list has helped a lot in the past.
>
> The bolts are sufficient to effect ground the antenna base.
> Clean the surfaces under the bolt heads and under the nuts.
> Tighten as much as the epoxy spacer will allow. Use internal
> tooth lockwashers under both bolt head and nut.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | dc motor question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
Hi all
I am installing a heater core for cab heat on my subaru
powered zodiac. It has a motor and fan built in and is
controlled by a 3 position speed switch. I thought
I would run the motor in reverse for defrost and forward
for regular heating.
However when I reverse the leads to the motor it turns
the same way when the polarity is reversed. Is there
some dc motors that will not reverse when the leads
are switched. Never ran into this before.
thanks
Jim Pollard
ch601hds
ea81
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: bus feed questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
And here's a photo of how the D-25 diode is wired:
http://www.rvproject.com/images/diode_wiring.jpg
Maybe you guys can let me know if I used the wrong terminals or something.
Thanks,
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: bus feed questions
> I've built my RV-7 electrical system pretty much exactly to Figure Z-11.
> Everything seems to work great with the exception of something that's been
> nagging me.
>
> When I feed the e-bus via the alternate (battery) feed, the turn
coordinator
> spins audibly faster than when I'm running everything off the main bus
> (feeding the e-bus through the D-25 diode). It's not just slightly...it's
> *noticeably* faster (higher pitch) when powering the e-bus directly off
the
> battery.
>
> NOTE: this is in my garage running off the battery alone
(engine/alternator
> are not running).
>
> I have tested this when powering nothing off the main bus, just feeding to
> the e-bus, so it's not like there's any real additional load on the
battery.
> So my assumptions are:
>
> 1) The battery contactor, which draws 720-750mA according to a current
draw
> test I did before wiring all this up, is making the difference in load?
>
> 2) I have wired the D-25 diode incorrectly. I was more than a little
> confused about the orientation of the terminals, since mine didn't match
up
> exactly with Bob's Z-11 diagram. Is it possible to wire it so that it
> places a load on the system?
>
> Any advice is much appreciated.
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: bus feed questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <racker@rmci.net>
Dan,
My turn coordinator does this as well, I assume caused by the voltage drop
across the e-bus diode. Functions fine in flight feeding off either bus,
FWIW.
Rob Acker (RV-6 flying)
do not archive
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
> <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> I've built my RV-7 electrical system pretty much exactly to Figure Z-11.
> Everything seems to work great with the exception of something that's
> been nagging me.
>
> When I feed the e-bus via the alternate (battery) feed, the turn
> coordinator spins audibly faster than when I'm running everything off
> the main bus (feeding the e-bus through the D-25 diode). It's not just
> slightly...it's *noticeably* faster (higher pitch) when powering the
> e-bus directly off the battery.
>
> NOTE: this is in my garage running off the battery alone
> (engine/alternator are not running).
>
> I have tested this when powering nothing off the main bus, just feeding
> to the e-bus, so it's not like there's any real additional load on the
> battery. So my assumptions are:
>
> 1) The battery contactor, which draws 720-750mA according to a current
> draw test I did before wiring all this up, is making the difference in
> load?
>
> 2) I have wired the D-25 diode incorrectly. I was more than a little
> confused about the orientation of the terminals, since mine didn't match
> up exactly with Bob's Z-11 diagram. Is it possible to wire it so that
> it places a load on the system?
>
> Any advice is much appreciated.
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: dc motor question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:43 PM 8/6/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
>
>Hi all
>
>I am installing a heater core for cab heat on my subaru
>powered zodiac. It has a motor and fan built in and is
>controlled by a 3 position speed switch. I thought
>I would run the motor in reverse for defrost and forward
>for regular heating.
>However when I reverse the leads to the motor it turns
>the same way when the polarity is reversed. Is there
>some dc motors that will not reverse when the leads
>are switched. Never ran into this before.
This means that your motor has a wound field
as opposed to permanent magnet field. You will
have to bring field winding wires out of the motor
and reverse them to effect reversal of the motor . . .
or replace the blower with a permanent magnet motor
version.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: bus feed questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:39 AM 8/6/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>I've built my RV-7 electrical system pretty much exactly to Figure Z-11.
>Everything seems to work great with the exception of something that's been
>nagging me.
>
>When I feed the e-bus via the alternate (battery) feed, the turn coordinator
>spins audibly faster than when I'm running everything off the main bus
>(feeding the e-bus through the D-25 diode). It's not just slightly...it's
>*noticeably* faster (higher pitch) when powering the e-bus directly off the
>battery.
Have you measured the voltage difference between e-bus and main bus?
It IS possible that you've wired the diode assembly such that you have
TWO diodes in series thus doubling the voltage drop discussed below.
Take a peek at:
http://216.55.140.222/Pictures/s401-25.jpg
>NOTE: this is in my garage running off the battery alone (engine/alternator
>are not running).
>
>I have tested this when powering nothing off the main bus, just feeding to
>the e-bus, so it's not like there's any real additional load on the battery.
>So my assumptions are:
>
>1) The battery contactor, which draws 720-750mA according to a current draw
>test I did before wiring all this up, is making the difference in load?
>
>2) I have wired the D-25 diode incorrectly. I was more than a little
>confused about the orientation of the terminals, since mine didn't match up
>exactly with Bob's Z-11 diagram. Is it possible to wire it so that it
>places a load on the system?
How did your diode differ from Z-11?
>Any advice is much appreciated.
The e-bus will see a drop across the normal feed diode of .6 to
.8 volts which WILL let motors run slower, lights burn dimmer
and transmitters put out less power. Closing the e-bus alternate
feed will bypass the diode and erase the drop . . . but consider
this:
During alternator out operations, e-bus devices are expected to
provide useful performance over the discharge voltage range of
the battery . . . which starts out at about 12.5 and drops to
10.5 when less than 5% of capacity remains.
Now, with the alternator running, main bus voltage will be 13.8
to 14.6 volts. Taking off 0.8 volts for e-bus normal feedpath
diode drop runs the e-bus at 13.0 to 13.8 volts . . . 0.5 to
1.3 volts higher than the e-bus will see running battery only.
Your tests are battery only, this means that the e-bus starts
out with 12.5 - 0.8 or about 11.7 volts when powered through
the normal feed path . . .
Bottom line is that what you have observed is predictable,
understandable and not relevant to how the system operates
in the air.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: dc motor question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski@direcway.com>
Jim and Lucy wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
>
>Hi all
>
>I am installing a heater core for cab heat on my subaru
>powered zodiac. It has a motor and fan built in and is
>controlled by a 3 position speed switch. I thought
>I would run the motor in reverse for defrost and forward
>for regular heating.
>However when I reverse the leads to the motor it turns
>the same way when the polarity is reversed. Is there
>some dc motors that will not reverse when the leads
>are switched. Never ran into this before.
>
>
>thanks
>
>Jim Pollard
>ch601hds
>ea81
>
>
Some dc motors have permanent magnets, some others have electromagnets.
For a permanent magnet changing the leads you change of direction of
current through the rotor with the same external magnetic field, so the
motor will change direction of rotation. For the electromagnet case
changing the leads reverses magnetic field both in the rotor and in the
electromagnet, and the motor will keep running as before. You would
have to find connections to the electromagnet inside the motor and
reverse them if you wanted to reverse direction, but I do not think that
you would like this project.
Jerzy
Message 22
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| Subject: | crimping connectors to 24-26 AWG wire |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame <charleyb@earthlink.net>
I'm interested in the answers to this question also.
The wires in my MAC servos and trim indicators are 22 AWG at best, and
look much smaller. The instructions says that "... up to 28 AWG is
satisfactory." I have trouble crimping 22 AWG wires into 18-22 AWG
fastons and splices and am at a complete loss as to what to do with
smaller wires. Solder....???
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
---------------------------
>
> Time: 02:29:14 PM PST US
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: crimping connectors to 24-26 AWG wire
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 02:40 PM 8/4/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PeterHunt1@aol.com
> >
> >My avionics have a lot of 24 AWG and 26 AWG wires onto which I must connect
> >quarter inch "faston" terminals and butt splices. I don't have a crimp tool
> >for wire that small and I can't get "faston" terminals that small. Is it
> >OK to
> >use 18-22 AWG terminals and butt splices? Should I then strip the insulation
> >further back and bend the exposed wire to double it over so as to better fit
> >the larger terminal?
>
> ???? Why 24 and 26 AWG wire ???? What kind of radios
> are you installing that prohibit the use of 22AWG or larger
> wire?
>
> Bob . . .
>
> --------------------------------------------
> ( Knowing about a thing is different than )
> ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
> ( and still understand nothing. )
> ( C.F. Kettering )
> --------------------------------------------
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: bus feed questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> Have you measured the voltage difference between e-bus and main bus?
The drop is .79 volts.
> It IS possible that you've wired the diode assembly such that you have
> TWO diodes in series thus doubling the voltage drop discussed below.
>
> Take a peek at:
> http://216.55.140.222/Pictures/s401-25.jpg
Ah, interesting. I did connect the main bus to a different terminal (the
lower left terminal in that photo), as you can see here:
http://www.rvproject.com/images/diode_wiring.jpg
> How did your diode differ from Z-11?
I was confused by Z-11 because in the iso view of the diode, it's very clear
which terminals are (+), (-) and (wave) (whatever the wave is supposed to
mean, I have no idea).
The issue I had is that in the actual wiring diagram, it's totally unclear
to me *which* of the two (wave) terminals the main bus should connect to.
You might want to clarify that to help people in the future, just a
suggestion...because unless I missed something it's ambiguous and there are
two choices. I chose the "other" one.
Now looking at the jpeg you posted above, I see exactly how you did it. But
tell me this...does it matter which (wave) terminal the main bus is
connected to, or are they both internally connected? Judging by the diode
symbol on the diagram it looks like either one would work fine?
> Bottom line is that what you have observed is predictable,
> understandable and not relevant to how the system operates
> in the air.
Phew...thanks!
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: bus feed questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch@msn.com>
Dan, I just looked at the picture of your e-bus diode and it looks like you
might have it wired incorrectly. It looks to me like you need to move the
feed from the Main DC bus from the lower left terminal to the upper right
terminal in your picture. You may know this already, but just in case.
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7 QB (Building)
Vero Beach, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: bus feed questions
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
<dan@rvproject.com>
>
> And here's a photo of how the D-25 diode is wired:
>
> http://www.rvproject.com/images/diode_wiring.jpg
>
> Maybe you guys can let me know if I used the wrong terminals or something.
>
> Thanks,
> )_( Dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: bus feed questions
>
>
> > I've built my RV-7 electrical system pretty much exactly to Figure Z-11.
> > Everything seems to work great with the exception of something that's
been
> > nagging me.
> >
> > When I feed the e-bus via the alternate (battery) feed, the turn
> coordinator
> > spins audibly faster than when I'm running everything off the main bus
> > (feeding the e-bus through the D-25 diode). It's not just
slightly...it's
> > *noticeably* faster (higher pitch) when powering the e-bus directly off
> the
> > battery.
> >
> > NOTE: this is in my garage running off the battery alone
> (engine/alternator
> > are not running).
> >
> > I have tested this when powering nothing off the main bus, just feeding
to
> > the e-bus, so it's not like there's any real additional load on the
> battery.
> > So my assumptions are:
> >
> > 1) The battery contactor, which draws 720-750mA according to a current
> draw
> > test I did before wiring all this up, is making the difference in load?
> >
> > 2) I have wired the D-25 diode incorrectly. I was more than a little
> > confused about the orientation of the terminals, since mine didn't match
> up
> > exactly with Bob's Z-11 diagram. Is it possible to wire it so that it
> > places a load on the system?
> >
> > Any advice is much appreciated.
> >
> > )_( Dan
> > RV-7 N714D
> > http://www.rvproject.com
> >
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: crimping connectors to 24-26 AWG wire |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
One way to make the smaller wires crimp into larger capacity ends is to
strip the end twice the normal length then fold the stripped end over
itself, insert the folded end and crimp.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Brame" <charleyb@earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: crimping connectors to 24-26 AWG wire
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame
<charleyb@earthlink.net>
>
> I'm interested in the answers to this question also.
>
> The wires in my MAC servos and trim indicators are 22 AWG at best, and
> look much smaller. The instructions says that "... up to 28 AWG is
> satisfactory." I have trouble crimping 22 AWG wires into 18-22 AWG
> fastons and splices and am at a complete loss as to what to do with
> smaller wires. Solder....???
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
> ---------------------------
>
> >
> > Time: 02:29:14 PM PST US
> > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: crimping connectors to 24-26 AWG wire
> >
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> >
> > At 02:40 PM 8/4/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PeterHunt1@aol.com
> > >
> > >My avionics have a lot of 24 AWG and 26 AWG wires onto which I must
connect
> > >quarter inch "faston" terminals and butt splices. I don't have a crimp
tool
> > >for wire that small and I can't get "faston" terminals that small. Is
it
> > >OK to
> > >use 18-22 AWG terminals and butt splices? Should I then strip the
insulation
> > >further back and bend the exposed wire to double it over so as to
better fit
> > >the larger terminal?
> >
> > ???? Why 24 and 26 AWG wire ???? What kind of radios
> > are you installing that prohibit the use of 22AWG or larger
> > wire?
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > ( Knowing about a thing is different than )
> > ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
> > ( and still understand nothing. )
> > ( C.F. Kettering )
> > --------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | D25 Rectifier/Diode |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
I am studying the wiring diagram for the B&C WigWag SSF-1 Flasher (printed
it out some where/time in the past but don't have the URL to reference it
again) and am trying to understand the purpose of the D25. Is there a
charge build up in the flasher itself that discharges itself when the
circuit is opened?
What would possible bad happen if the D25 was not there and why is it useful
to have in this diagram?
Thanks.
Indiana Larry, RV7 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak TwoBatteriesOneAltWiring
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: bus feed questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
Dan wrote, "Now looking at the jpeg you posted above, I see exactly how you
did it. But
tell me this...does it matter which (wave) terminal the main bus is
connected to, or are they both internally connected? Judging by the diode
symbol on the diagram it looks like either one would work fine?"
It does matter where we connect the main buss based on a couple of the
diagrams I have seen that show the internal wiring of the D25 by B&C. There
is only one terminal the main bus cannot be connected to on the D25 and you
got it. If the D25 is laid down with feet up and the one terminal with foot
in different angle is put in lower right corner and connected to the e-buss
and either terminal in the top row can be used to connect to the main buss
to do it right.
Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip-up TMX-O-360 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak
Received FWF today.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: crimping connectors to 24-26 AWG wire |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Simply strip a double length of the smaller 26 gauge wire. Double the bared wire
back. This will effectively double the thickness of the wire so that it will
hold securely in a 22 -18 gauge terminal.
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame <charleyb@earthlink.net>
>
>I'm interested in the answers to this question also.
>
>The wires in my MAC servos and trim indicators are 22 AWG at best, and
>look much smaller. The instructions says that "... up to 28 AWG is
>satisfactory." I have trouble crimping 22 AWG wires into 18-22 AWG
>fastons and splices and am at a complete loss as to what to do with
>smaller wires. Solder....???
>
>Charlie Brame
>RV-6A N11CB
>San Antonio
>
>---------------------------
>
>>
>> Time: 02:29:14 PM PST US
>> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: crimping connectors to 24-26 AWG wire
>>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>>
>> At 02:40 PM 8/4/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PeterHunt1@aol.com
>> >
>> >My avionics have a lot of 24 AWG and 26 AWG wires onto which I must connect
>> >quarter inch "faston" terminals and butt splices. I don't have a crimp tool
>> >for wire that small and I can't get "faston" terminals that small. Is it
>> >OK to
>> >use 18-22 AWG terminals and butt splices? Should I then strip the insulation
>> >further back and bend the exposed wire to double it over so as to better fit
>> >the larger terminal?
>>
>> ???? Why 24 and 26 AWG wire ???? What kind of radios
>> are you installing that prohibit the use of 22AWG or larger
>> wire?
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> ( Knowing about a thing is different than )
>> ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
>> ( and still understand nothing. )
>> ( C.F. Kettering )
>> --------------------------------------------
>
>
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