Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:00 AM - Re: Alternator (Ron Raby)
2. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: Switches vs relays for lights, strobes (Mike Heinen)
3. 06:44 AM - Re: OV Module question for Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 06:45 AM - Re: OV Module question for Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:08 AM - Re: IFR requirements (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:14 AM - Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures (Rich Chiappe)
7. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: Switches vs relays for lights, (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 08:25 AM - Re: Grounding Antennas?? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:29 AM - Re: Alternator pulley (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:40 AM - Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures (Dennis O'Connor)
11. 10:44 AM - Re: Switches vs relays for lights, strobes (James Foerster)
12. 11:13 AM - Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures (Todd Houg)
13. 11:16 AM - Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 12:17 PM - OT: Source for dynamic prop balancers (Eric M. Jones)
15. 12:25 PM - Part 91 aircraft (Fergus Kyle)
16. 12:29 PM - Northern ADFs (Fergus Kyle)
17. 12:49 PM - Not to flog a dead horse (Fergus Kyle)
18. 01:18 PM - D-sub current limits (James Foerster)
19. 01:27 PM - Re: Not to flog a dead horse (Brett Ferrell)
20. 01:42 PM - Re: D-sub current limits (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 02:30 PM - Re: Not to flog a dead horse (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 04:51 PM - Re: RG58 Coax article I promised (Brian & Debi Shannon)
23. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Switches vs relays for lights, (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: IFR requirements (Rico Voss)
25. 05:59 PM - Re: RG58 Coax article I promised (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: IFR requirements (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 07:07 PM - Cessna-type panel light dimmer replacement? (Ronald Cox)
28. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: IFR requirements (richard@riley.net)
29. 07:36 PM - Brushes for Aircraft (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
30. 08:31 PM - Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures (drew.schumann@us.army.mil)
31. 10:57 PM - Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid (Gerry Holland)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
Thanks
Ron Raby
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 01:00 PM 8/11/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby"
<ronr@advanceddesign.com>
> >
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >I have a kelly aerospace 70 amp alternator with two field connections F1
and
> >F2. I also have the B&C alternator controllers. My question is what do I
do
> >with the second field connection? Do I run them both to terminal # 4 on
the
> >B&C?
>
> These are terminals for both brushes. You can ground one locally to
> the case of the alternator . . . or take it back to pin 7 (ground)
> on the regulator. If you can't find a screw handy on back of alternator
> for grounding extra field connection, perhaps the least problematical
> approach is to run the extra wire back to regulator.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Switches vs relays for lights, strobes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Heinen" <mjheinen@adelphia.net>
How much curretn is typical for a PTT(push to talk) and if low would a relay
be needed for this also?
Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switches vs relays for lights, strobes
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 11:08 PM 8/11/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <mjheinen@adelphia.net>
> >
> >I was considering using a pc flight simulator joystick with its
associated
> >microswithches to control a mac servo for trim, push to talk, autopilot
> >engage/disengage....
> >I assume the switches are 50 mA with ?about 24 guage pvc coating. I was
> >cosidering using these with relays???...or are these toys just not
> >substantial enough for the cyles and currents?
>
> There's been a lot of discussion about building multitudinous
> switching features into stick grips. Given the total number
> of times per flight cycle that one operates things like flaps,
> landing lights, etc. it seems most practical to limit stick
> switches to those found on majority of bizjets . . . PTT,
> trim, and wheel master disconnect that interrupts power to
> any system that drives a flight surface like trims,
> a/p and except flaps.
>
> I don't know what construction was used in the switches
> you propose nor am I aware of a service history of these
> switches used as you propose.
>
> Yours is an experimental aircraft and if you're
> interested in taking your design through a proof
> of concept activity, it can certainly be done.
> If they are wired with 24AWG wire, then it is a
> certainty that you'll need relays. The S704-1
> or similar relays offered by B&C are easy to use
> and would be suitable to this task. Be sure and
> include spike catcher diodes across the relay coils
> so that they don't eat the contacts of your small
> switches.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: OV Module question for Bob |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:28 AM 8/11/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Grosvenor" <dwg@iafrica.com>
>
>Yes Bob, I do. The battery master contacter I purchased from you with the
>diode fitted. The starter contacter came with my Rotax 912 engine an
>initially I thought it had an internal diode. On first test of the
>electrical system I soon found it didn't as it was causing my fuel flow
>meter to reset. I then fitted a diode. The odd thing it the OV breaker is
>tripping when I push the starter, not when I release it.
Contactors bounce like golf balls. The act of "closing" the
contactor will produce a multitude of short, interruptions
before it finally settles down. I'm not privy to the
specific characteristics of the contactor favored by
Rotax. However, if it's a cranking issue, why have the
alternator switch ON during cranking? If you wait until
after the engine starts to put the OVM on-line, perhaps
this issue will go away.
BTW, the avionics disconnect relay on EXP-Bus products
has been known to trip our ov modules too . . . until
the recommended diode was added across the coil.
> Before fitting the
>10uF cap, it was tripping as I switched the master on.
>Dave
Without having your construction in-hand to test it's dynamic
characteristics, I'm unable to explain its behavior. The
circuit I publish is different than the circuit we build.
The original design calls for a bi-lateral trigger diode
that has gone obsolete. B&C did a lifetime buy of these
part to support their production for the foreseeable future
although one of their products uses the two-transistor+zener
network in lieu of the trigger diode.
I've been able to troubleshoot and fix several DIY ov
modules for builders. If you'd care to send it to me,
I'll check it out. Do I recall you are overseas? Mark
customs tag as "returned for warranty repair".
Some other things to check:
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | OV Module question for Bob |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:42 AM 8/11/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
>
>Sounds like the inductive kick back, or noise, from the starter is
>creating a voltage spike that is causing some problems.
>
>One fix would be to place an inductor before the contactor. That is get
>a torrid from radio shack and then wrap about 10 turns of primary wire
>around the torrid this combined with the capacitor after the inductor
>should filter out these voltage spikes.
An inductor to carry starter current? That would be a REAL
hog.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: IFR requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:18 AM 8/9/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ken Brooks" <kenbrooks@charter.net>
>
>-listers,
> Amen to this!
>". . .All the regulations and anecdotes should be carefully combed for
>useful, simple-ideas that help us evolve. 99% of what we KNOW about the
>certified experience is of no value in this regard except to acknowledge
>that they're not doing it right. Let us concentrate on deducing what
>makes us look like really good pilots because our airplanes are free of
>disappointments. Bob (Nuckolls). . ."
>
>Now. . .I want to be able to fly my RV-8 legal IFR (no, I don't intend
>to fly in bad weather, just be able to file, etc.) I've already been
>through the "paper charts" thing, and yes, I'll have them in the cockpit
>and they'll be up to date.
<snip>
> . . . The part where we differ in
>interpretation of the FARs is that some say you must have a wet compass.
>As I read the reg, it just says "magnetic heading indicator" and the
>solid state magnetometers with the EFIS-One/EFIS-Lite are just that, so
>if someone can show me why/how I must have a wet compass . . .
You don't. Your interpretation is correct. I've seen aircraft
were fitted with an electric repeater compass that used a
sensor with a floating magnet assembly back in the tail. A
compass display not unlike an ADF indicator was placed on
the panel. This, or any other electronic magnetic heading
indicator would fill the requirement. The only thing the
rule doesn't cite specifically is that the system designer
should to take steps to insure reliable or isolated source
power to meet the "second source for essential equipment"
and "30-minute" rules cited elsewhere.
One could purchase a bare-bones GPS engine, rig
a digital display showing present magnetic track, run
it from the battery bus, and meet this requirement
handily . . . just think, an accurate, stable display of
magnetic track irrespective of turning forces or
turbulence . . . cool
Keep in mind that the magnetic heading indicator rule
has been around almost since day-one. In 1940, the
wet compass was the only option. Classic checklists
have called for setting gyros to agree with compass
or runway heading (magnetic) since that time as well.
The rule acknowledges that there are multiple ways
to deduce which way you are heading (or tracking).
The wet compass that used to be only source of
data is (as others have noted on the list) on it's
way to join the air-miles indicator (odometer
for airplanes) that were part of the well-equipped
aircraft of years gone by.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rich Chiappe" <richc@skytecair.com>
While it has taken a while for me to find the matronics aeroelectric-list I
am nonetheless very glad I was able to do so.
My name is Rich Chiappe and I am the Manager of Sky-Tec, the Flyweight
Starter manufacturer, and I would be more than happy to address the question
of Sky-Tec starter failures. Denis, if you haven't already sent those
solenoids off for inspection by Mr. Nuckolls, I too would be more than happy
to open your solenoids and photograph the results for all to see on this
board or even our website if you desire. We actually have a tool made-up
for splitting the solenoids. Just please understand I suspect that Mr.
Nuckolls' (who posted previously) motivation for "helping" may be less than
neutral given his proximity to Sky-Tec's nearest competitor, B&C Products of
Newton (Witchita) Kansas.
First off, for what it's worth, I would like you all to understand the
statements I make here are sincere and based on facts. I will leave the
marketing "spin" at the door and pledge to you my sincere desire to offer
you any information positive or negative about our products in the hopes
that you will be completely and fairly informed about them.
Our goal at Sky-Tec is 100% customer satisfaction. Given the fact that we
make a mechanical device that is used in a completely uncontrollable range
of environments, we understand that some portion of our products will
experience difficulties and/or failures. It just goes with the territory.
But it is our hope that even those unpleasurable experiences be restored to
satisfaction by our unmatched support and professionalism. As I mentioned
to Mr. Walsh in a separate e-mail, if we fail to succeed in the latter, then
we simply deserve to lose your business. But understand our efforts are
sincere and whole-hearted.
Yes, under extreme vibration (see next paragraph), the solenoids on
Sky-Tec's LS and PM starters can become what we refer to as "pitted". As I
was more than eager to show many of you at our booth at Oshkosh using our
cut-away LS starter, LS and PM starters manufactured before August of 2002
were manufactured with a mount that enabled the solenoid plunger to be "held
off" its seat when the starter was in the rested position. Looking at the
geometry of our starter(or B&C's for that matter), you'll notice the
solenoid is a long moment away from the centerline of your engine. That
long moment transfers that vibration to the solenoid and in it's "held-off"
position, it is enable to 'wiggle' in it's insulative housing. Over time,
under continued vibration, that solenoid plunger may wiggle itself a "pit"
into the interior wall of its insulation. When the plunger comes to rest in
that pit and an owner goes to fire the starter, in severe cases, the
solenoid may not be strong enough to 'climb out' of this pit resulting in
NOTHING (a click with NO starter activity). An immediately subsequent start
attempt may find the plunger safely away from its 'pit' and the starter
fires as it should and you experience all the GOOD things about a Sky-Tec
starter (fast spin, quick start). But the condition is typically
accompanied by intermittent operation.
We have addressed this issue by changing one operation of the precision
machining on our mounts which now allows the solenoid to "seat" fully and
resists vibration almost entirely. This change was made in August, 2002.
Now, a note on vibration. I am not referring to the vibration we ALL
experience with our horizontally opposed Lycomings (yes, I realize they ALL
vibrate - I realize these aren't Ferrari 12 cylinder racing engines). You
should see my Starduster shake on shutdown! So no, I don't think our
expectation is that you can balance a sandbag on the cowling, much less a
quarter as Mr. O'Connor humorously suggested. The severe vibration we're
referring to is an extreme case where an engine has a harmonic or other
imbalance which imparts an abnormal (for a Lycoming engine) level of
vibration to engine accessories including the starter/solenoid.
Remember, as we state (all too often probably), Sky-Tec has 25,000-30,000
starters out there in service. And I (yes, I'm the guy who receives the
repairs) will see only 2-5 come back to the factory each week which failed
(or became intermittent) with a pitted solenoid problem. Most of these we
will fix under warranty and in so doing will replace the mount with the post
August 2002 machine cut that allows the solenoid to REST fully in the
retracted position which GREATLY reduces the movement of the solenoid
plunger and virtually eliminates the tendency to 'pit' the inside of the
insulation. The remainder of those 20K+ starters are performing as
engineered well past engine TBO's.
So what do we propose as a resolution if you suspect your engine experiences
abnormal vibration or an intermittent Sky-Tec starter?
- Have the prop dynamically balanced (we will try to ask this question of
you only once in future conversations - sorry about that, Denis)
- At annual or other convenient time, send me your starter and I will
replace the mount with one with the post 8/02 machining cut in it. I will
not charge for this. You pay only shipping and any other repair costs (if
any) you wish us to perform while we have the starter.
- For harsh operating environments (including high-vibration applications),
we recommend the Sky-Tec HT (including the new HTI) line of starters. They
do not utilize the same solenoid design and as a result are more
'heavy-duty' and rugged. Remember also that HT/HTI's are the ONLY starter
recommended for Lycoming-powered rotorcraft. If you would like to 'upgrade'
to an HT, we can discuss a 'trade-up' program - just contact me directly for
details.
Above all, if you ever have a question about our starters - operation or
lack thereof - please do not hesitate to contact me directly or through this
board (I will try to get in a habit of monitoring the digest regularly).
In all, I think you all will find and the market will continue to prove that
Sky-Tec manufactures a superior starter over any of its heavy or light
weight competitors. From time to time, we anticipate there will be failures
but pledge to address them with unmatchable customer service. We also
pledge to keep our discussions to facts - those being RELEVANT facts too.
For instance, our competitors love to distract with irrelevant facts like
"plastic gears" and "ball bearings". So let me be up-front: Yes we have
"plastic gears" in our LS/PM starters and the LS/PM line does not use ball
bearings in its design - but there are good reasons for both of these which
I will discuss on a separate post if necessary not the least of which is our
starters have NEVER died because of either of these components! Because of
this, clearly discussion of such minutia is a smoke screen used to disctract
us from the core discussion: how do they work, how will they last, and how
will you take care of me if it doesn't.
Also, to address another previous post: NO - Sky-Tec 24V starters utilize
24V solenoids - not 12V solenoids. Beyond putting an ohm-meter on them, one
way to confirm this is to look at our prices of 24V starters - see how much
more they are than the 12V starters? That's because of how much it costs me
to have those 24V armatures and solenoids manufactured to our specs - they
are not inexpensive to have made (right). Man, just how do these
innacuracies get started out there anyway? Please call me if you have other
questions so we can keep things based on the facts and not speculation.
If there's anything we can do at the factory to support you better, please
feel free to contact me directly:
- Rich Chiappe
Sky-Tec
350 Howard Clemons Rd
Granbury, Texas 76048
(800) 476-7896
richc@skytecair.com
www.skytecair.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Switches vs relays for lights, |
strobes
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:28 AM 8/12/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Heinen" <mjheinen@adelphia.net>
>
>How much curretn is typical for a PTT(push to talk) and if low would a relay
>be needed for this also?
PTT currents are typically very low. Even in the good ol'
days of vacuum tube radios, the PTT line pulls down on a
relay inside the radio.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Antennas?? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:42 AM 8/6/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vince Ackerman <vack@mac.com>
>
>Thanks Bob,
>
>Both antennas are painted white inside the bolt holes. Will I need to
>remove this? They both came with rubber gaskets for the bottom surface
>so I was wondering, along with the paint, how they are normally
>grounded.
>
>Vince Ackerman
Sorry for the delay on this . . .
You need to remove paint where ever a fastener
puts FORCE on the parts to effect both mechanical
mounting and electrical connection. This would not
include the inside surfaces of holes but would
include clamping surfaces under the heads of screws and
nuts.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator pulley |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> Bob,
>I have a NiponDensmo 55 amp alternator that I am considering installing in
>my homebuilt. Looking at the spec sheet that was included with the
>alternator, it says it does not develop the full 55 amps until around
>6,000 RPMs. I am using a franklin engine and the RPMs never exceed 2,750.
>Again loking at the spec sheet it appears the most I ever will be able to
>get out of the alternator withot changing the pulley is somewhere around
>35-40 amps. My question is would it be safe to use a 40 amp shunt and
>meter for my amp meter?
Sure . . . you can RATE an alternator anywhere you like for FULL
output as long as it's capable of that value. For example, the
SD-20 vacuum pump driven alternator is REALLY a 40A machine
de-rated to 20A for either cooling or RPM limited operation.
A pulley change seems pretty simple. Why not do this and
get the full benefits of your alternator's capability?
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor@chartermi.net>
Ahhh jeezzzz, Rich.... There you go spoiling a perfectly good argument with
facts...
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Chiappe" <richc@skytecair.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures
Message 11
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| Subject: | RE: Switches vs relays for lights, strobes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic@comcast.net>
Bob,
My intention is to use switches rated for the load. Also, the switch panel has
been designed for easy replacement of the switches, from the pilots seat, with
PIDG terminals and enough slack wire to facilitate the job.
You asked what switches I'm using. For the high current lighting, I have found
an internally lighted Radio Shack 275-0712 unit that is rated for 30 amps.
They do have a spec sheet, which reads:
Switch (275-0712) Specifications Faxback Doc. # 16582
Model #:...........................................................R13-133B
Switching Function (Circuit):................................3P SPSP ON-OFF
Rating:..........................................................30A 12V DC
Contact Resistance:...........................................50 m/ohms Max
Insulation Resistance:...............................DC 500V 100 m/ohms Min
Voltage Breakdown:........................................AC 1500V 1 minute
Lamp Rating:...........................................DC 12V 50 mA +/- 10%
I bought one and it looks nice with the built-in red indicator. I like the idea
of a lighted switch when I have high drain power running. This switch mounts
in a round hole, and if it fails, replacement is easy. As you have said, corrosion
is more likely to fail a switch than burned contacts.
All the other panel switches are also rocker units with FASTON tabs for PIDG terminals.
Jim Foerster
Message 12
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| Subject: | Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Todd Houg <thoug@attglobal.net>
Rich,
Thanks much for the straight story on the Sky-Tec starters. I wish more manufacturers
would provide this kind of information in a public forum. Unfortunately,
too many people carry a grudge for one reason or another and continue to flog
the manufacturers publicly. This makes it difficult for the manufacturer to
satisfy the customer in a public forum without coming across in a negative or
derogatory manor. I wish you and your comapany the best and hope you continue
to monitor and respond to questions regarding your products.
Now for my question . . .
I purchased a low time Sky-Tec starter (LS) second hand and would like to know
how to tell if it has the post August 2002 mount?
Thanks,
Todd Houg
RV-9A - Fuselage construction
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Chiappe
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rich Chiappe" <richc@skytecair.com>
While it has taken a while for me to find the matronics aeroelectric-list I
am nonetheless very glad I was able to do so.
My name is Rich Chiappe and I am the Manager of Sky-Tec, the Flyweight
Starter manufacturer, and I would be more than happy to address the question
of Sky-Tec starter failures. Denis, if you haven't already sent those
solenoids off for inspection by Mr. Nuckolls, I too would be more than happy
to open your solenoids and photograph the results for all to see on this
board or even our website if you desire. We actually have a tool made-up
for splitting the solenoids. Just please understand I suspect that Mr.
Nuckolls' (who posted previously) motivation for "helping" may be less than
neutral given his proximity to Sky-Tec's nearest competitor, B&C Products of
Newton (Witchita) Kansas.
First off, for what it's worth, I would like you all to understand the
statements I make here are sincere and based on facts. I will leave the
marketing "spin" at the door and pledge to you my sincere desire to offer
you any information positive or negative about our products in the hopes
that you will be completely and fairly informed about them.
Our goal at Sky-Tec is 100% customer satisfaction. Given the fact that we
make a mechanical device that is used in a completely uncontrollable range
of environments, we understand that some portion of our products will
experience difficulties and/or failures. It just goes with the territory.
But it is our hope that even those unpleasurable experiences be restored to
satisfaction by our unmatched support and professionalism. As I mentioned
to Mr. Walsh in a separate e-mail, if we fail to succeed in the latter, then
we simply deserve to lose your business. But understand our efforts are
sincere and whole-hearted.
Yes, under extreme vibration (see next paragraph), the solenoids on
Sky-Tec's LS and PM starters can become what we refer to as "pitted". As I
was more than eager to show many of you at our booth at Oshkosh using our
cut-away LS starter, LS and PM starters manufactured before August of 2002
were manufactured with a mount that enabled the solenoid plunger to be "held
off" its seat when the starter was in the rested position. Looking at the
geometry of our starter(or B&C's for that matter), you'll notice the
solenoid is a long moment away from the centerline of your engine. That
long moment transfers that vibration to the solenoid and in it's "held-off"
position, it is enable to 'wiggle' in it's insulative housing. Over time,
under continued vibration, that solenoid plunger may wiggle itself a "pit"
into the interior wall of its insulation. When the plunger comes to rest in
that pit and an owner goes to fire the starter, in severe cases, the
solenoid may not be strong enough to 'climb out' of this pit resulting in
NOTHING (a click with NO starter activity). An immediately subsequent start
attempt may find the plunger safely away from its 'pit' and the starter
fires as it should and you experience all the GOOD things about a Sky-Tec
starter (fast spin, quick start). But the condition is typically
accompanied by intermittent operation.
We have addressed this issue by changing one operation of the precision
machining on our mounts which now allows the solenoid to "seat" fully and
resists vibration almost entirely. This change was made in August, 2002.
Now, a note on vibration. I am not referring to the vibration we ALL
experience with our horizontally opposed Lycomings (yes, I realize they ALL
vibrate - I realize these aren't Ferrari 12 cylinder racing engines). You
should see my Starduster shake on shutdown! So no, I don't think our
expectation is that you can balance a sandbag on the cowling, much less a
quarter as Mr. O'Connor humorously suggested. The severe vibration we're
referring to is an extreme case where an engine has a harmonic or other
imbalance which imparts an abnormal (for a Lycoming engine) level of
vibration to engine accessories including the starter/solenoid.
Remember, as we state (all too often probably), Sky-Tec has 25,000-30,000
starters out there in service. And I (yes, I'm the guy who receives the
repairs) will see only 2-5 come back to the factory each week which failed
(or became intermittent) with a pitted solenoid problem. Most of these we
will fix under warranty and in so doing will replace the mount with the post
August 2002 machine cut that allows the solenoid to REST fully in the
retracted position which GREATLY reduces the movement of the solenoid
plunger and virtually eliminates the tendency to 'pit' the inside of the
insulation. The remainder of those 20K+ starters are performing as
engineered well past engine TBO's.
So what do we propose as a resolution if you suspect your engine experiences
abnormal vibration or an intermittent Sky-Tec starter?
- Have the prop dynamically balanced (we will try to ask this question of
you only once in future conversations - sorry about that, Denis)
- At annual or other convenient time, send me your starter and I will
replace the mount with one with the post 8/02 machining cut in it. I will
not charge for this. You pay only shipping and any other repair costs (if
any) you wish us to perform while we have the starter.
- For harsh operating environments (including high-vibration applications),
we recommend the Sky-Tec HT (including the new HTI) line of starters. They
do not utilize the same solenoid design and as a result are more
'heavy-duty' and rugged. Remember also that HT/HTI's are the ONLY starter
recommended for Lycoming-powered rotorcraft. If you would like to 'upgrade'
to an HT, we can discuss a 'trade-up' program - just contact me directly for
details.
Above all, if you ever have a question about our starters - operation or
lack thereof - please do not hesitate to contact me directly or through this
board (I will try to get in a habit of monitoring the digest regularly).
In all, I think you all will find and the market will continue to prove that
Sky-Tec manufactures a superior starter over any of its heavy or light
weight competitors. From time to time, we anticipate there will be failures
but pledge to address them with unmatchable customer service. We also
pledge to keep our discussions to facts - those being RELEVANT facts too.
For instance, our competitors love to distract with irrelevant facts like
"plastic gears" and "ball bearings". So let me be up-front: Yes we have
"plastic gears" in our LS/PM starters and the LS/PM line does not use ball
bearings in its design - but there are good reasons for both of these which
I will discuss on a separate post if necessary not the least of which is our
starters have NEVER died because of either of these components! Because of
this, clearly discussion of such minutia is a smoke screen used to disctract
us from the core discussion: how do they work, how will they last, and how
will you take care of me if it doesn't.
Also, to address another previous post: NO - Sky-Tec 24V starters utilize
24V solenoids - not 12V solenoids. Beyond putting an ohm-meter on them, one
way to confirm this is to look at our prices of 24V starters - see how much
more they are than the 12V starters? That's because of how much it costs me
to have those 24V armatures and solenoids manufactured to our specs - they
are not inexpensive to have made (right). Man, just how do these
innacuracies get started out there anyway? Please call me if you have other
questions so we can keep things based on the facts and not speculation.
If there's anything we can do at the factory to support you better, please
feel free to contact me directly:
- Rich Chiappe
Sky-Tec
350 Howard Clemons Rd
Granbury, Texas 76048
(800) 476-7896
richc@skytecair.com
www.skytecair.com
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid |
Failures
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:01 AM 8/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rich Chiappe" <richc@skytecair.com>
>
>While it has taken a while for me to find the matronics aeroelectric-list I
>am nonetheless very glad I was able to do so.
>
>My name is Rich Chiappe and I am the Manager of Sky-Tec, the Flyweight
>Starter manufacturer, and I would be more than happy to address the question
>of Sky-Tec starter failures. Denis, if you haven't already sent those
>solenoids off for inspection by Mr. Nuckolls, I too would be more than happy
>to open your solenoids and photograph the results for all to see on this
>board or even our website if you desire. We actually have a tool made-up
>for splitting the solenoids. Just please understand I suspect that Mr.
>Nuckolls' (who posted previously) motivation for "helping" may be less than
>neutral given his proximity to Sky-Tec's nearest competitor, B&C Products of
>Newton (Witchita) Kansas.
It's spelled "Wichita" . . . and before I am friend to Mr. Bainbridge,
I am an engineer and a teacher with an interest in deducing facts
and sharing them with anyone who has an interest.
>Yes, under extreme vibration (see next paragraph), the solenoids on
>Sky-Tec's LS and PM starters can become what we refer to as "pitted". As I
>was more than eager to show many of you at our booth at Oshkosh using our
>cut-away LS starter, LS and PM starters manufactured before August of 2002
>were manufactured with a mount that enabled the solenoid plunger to be "held
>off" its seat when the starter was in the rested position. Looking at the
>geometry of our starter(or B&C's for that matter), you'll notice the
>solenoid is a long moment away from the centerline of your engine. That
>long moment transfers that vibration to the solenoid and in it's "held-off"
>position, it is enable to 'wiggle' in it's insulative housing. Over time,
>under continued vibration, that solenoid plunger may wiggle itself a "pit"
>into the interior wall of its insulation. When the plunger comes to rest in
>that pit and an owner goes to fire the starter, in severe cases, the
>solenoid may not be strong enough to 'climb out' of this pit resulting in
>NOTHING (a click with NO starter activity). An immediately subsequent start
>attempt may find the plunger safely away from its 'pit' and the starter
>fires as it should and you experience all the GOOD things about a Sky-Tec
>starter (fast spin, quick start). But the condition is typically
>accompanied by intermittent operation.
>
>We have addressed this issue by changing one operation of the precision
>machining on our mounts which now allows the solenoid to "seat" fully and
>resists vibration almost entirely. This change was made in August, 2002.
>
>Now, a note on vibration. I am not referring to the vibration we ALL
>experience with our horizontally opposed Lycomings (yes, I realize they ALL
>vibrate - I realize these aren't Ferrari 12 cylinder racing engines). You
>should see my Starduster shake on shutdown! So no, I don't think our
>expectation is that you can balance a sandbag on the cowling, much less a
>quarter as Mr. O'Connor humorously suggested. The severe vibration we're
>referring to is an extreme case where an engine has a harmonic or other
>imbalance which imparts an abnormal (for a Lycoming engine) level of
>vibration to engine accessories including the starter/solenoid.
I'm sorry sir, but you don't get any more credit for
environmental conditions than does any other manufacturer.
The conditions present under the ring gear of a Lycoming
engine are what they are. If you perceive an increased risk
of failure of your product due to some variables of installation
and service, a few words of warning the promotional literature
would be nice.
>Remember, as we state (all too often probably), Sky-Tec has 25,000-30,000
>starters out there in service. And I (yes, I'm the guy who receives the
>repairs) will see only 2-5 come back to the factory each week which failed
>(or became intermittent) with a pitted solenoid problem.
100 - 250 returns per year for a repeating problem with an
easy solution . . . have you considered a metal liner in the
solenoid bore?
> Most of these we
>will fix under warranty and in so doing will replace the mount with the post
>August 2002 machine cut that allows the solenoid to REST fully in the
>retracted position which GREATLY reduces the movement of the solenoid
>plunger and virtually eliminates the tendency to 'pit' the inside of the
>insulation. The remainder of those 20K+ starters are performing as
>engineered well past engine TBO's.
>So what do we propose as a resolution if you suspect your engine experiences
>abnormal vibration or an intermittent Sky-Tec starter?
. . . define "abnormal" along with the instrumentation
and go/no-go values your customers should apply to make
sure their engine is suited for the use of your product . . .
it may well be less expensive for them to choose a product
with no such limitations.
>- Have the prop dynamically balanced (we will try to ask this question of
>you only once in future conversations - sorry about that, Denis)
>- At annual or other convenient time, send me your starter and I will
>replace the mount with one with the post 8/02 machining cut in it. I will
>not charge for this. You pay only shipping and any other repair costs (if
>any) you wish us to perform while we have the starter.
>- For harsh operating environments (including high-vibration applications),
>we recommend the Sky-Tec HT (including the new HTI) line of starters. They
>do not utilize the same solenoid design and as a result are more
>'heavy-duty' and rugged. Remember also that HT/HTI's are the ONLY starter
>recommended for Lycoming-powered rotorcraft. If you would like to 'upgrade'
>to an HT, we can discuss a 'trade-up' program - just contact me directly for
>details.
>
>Above all, if you ever have a question about our starters - operation or
>lack thereof - please do not hesitate to contact me directly or through this
>board (I will try to get in a habit of monitoring the digest regularly).
>
>In all, I think you all will find and the market will continue to prove that
>Sky-Tec manufactures a superior starter over any of its heavy or light
>weight competitors.
. . . define "superior" . . . I think our customers are looking
for good value which means low cost of ownership. Cost of ownership
has to include purchase price, service life and the inconvenience
of dealing with failures no matter what the $cost$ is for putting
the system back into service.
> From time to time, we anticipate there will be failures
>but pledge to address them with unmatchable customer service. We also
>pledge to keep our discussions to facts - those being RELEVANT facts too.
>For instance, our competitors love to distract with irrelevant facts like
>"plastic gears" and "ball bearings". So let me be up-front: Yes we have
>"plastic gears" in our LS/PM starters and the LS/PM line does not use ball
>bearings in its design - but there are good reasons for both of these which
>I will discuss on a separate post if necessary not the least of which is our
>starters have NEVER died because of either of these components! Because of
>this, clearly discussion of such minutia is a smoke screen used to disctract
>us from the core discussion: how do they work, how will they last, and how
>will you take care of me if it doesn't.
Facts are never irrelevant. You agree that the construction features
cited are indeed factual. The relevance of those differences for any
of my writings about starters was to point out some of the reasons
for price differences between products. Exactly why a designer chooses
a particular technology in preference to another may never be obvious
to us who watch field histories on the products.
From my own experience as a designer, I know one can and should spend
a lot
of time considering technology and fabrication choices for a brand new
product. It's one thing to count on field service history to help you
evolve toward a better product. However, unless the first offerings
enjoy an exemplary first impression, one may never get a chance to
evolve at all . . . B&C's choices of component technologies from the very
beginning have represented them well. There have been a number of
light-weight wantabe manufacturers that have come and gone. As far as
I know, B&C was there first and has the longest track record. They're
not the cheapest but there's about 15 years of service history to
assist the consumer with his buying choices.
This thread was started based on four contactor failures in three
years on one airplane. The owner has opined this product to be of poor
value. The facts has presented do not dispute his opinion.
I'm pleased that you've offered clarification of the problem
and company intent with respect to mitigation.
>Also, to address another previous post: NO - Sky-Tec 24V starters utilize
>24V solenoids - not 12V solenoids. Beyond putting an ohm-meter on them, one
>way to confirm this is to look at our prices of 24V starters - see how much
>more they are than the 12V starters? That's because of how much it costs me
>to have those 24V armatures and solenoids manufactured to our specs - they
>are not inexpensive to have made (right). Man, just how do these
>innacuracies get started out there anyway?
Ol' mechanic's tales, dark-n-stormy night stories, ignorance . . . and
now the Internet makes mis-information available to virtually
everyone in minutes. B&C has received nasty-grams for failures
on starters that weren't even manufactured by B&C! My words have
been quoted out of context and attributed with alternative meanings
many times. That's what this and dozens of other lists are about, deduce
facts and build understanding of how and why things happen.
> Please call me if you have other
>questions so we can keep things based on the facts and not speculation.
>
>If there's anything we can do at the factory to support you better, please
>feel free to contact me directly:
It appears the failure mode for the incident under discussion
has been deduced and a fix implemented. I'm pleased to hear it.
I'm also pleased to have you join us in the goal of providing
hard data that helps folks make informed technology choices for
their own design and fabrication challenge of building the
finest airplanes to have ever flown.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 14
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| Subject: | OT: Source for dynamic prop balancers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Going down now for auction on http://www.govliquidation.com/--
LOT (3) CHADWICK HELMUTH MDL 177M-6A BALANCERS w/ CARRYING CASES; PREVIEW
AND LOADOUT BY APPOINTMENT ONLY.
You'll have to do a little homework. These may be helicopter only. Don't
know.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to
gain ground."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Part 91 aircraft |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
| Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Part 91
|
| --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark"
<james@nextupventures.com>
|
|
| Question below ....
|
|
| >
| > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
| >
| > Cheers,
| > I am interested in the regulations in USA as
| > expect to visit
| > and tour with my OBAM as a Canadian. I have also tried to build
| > to US and UK
| > requirements for safety. My understanding was that OBAM aircraft
| > do not have
| > the standard 'certified' quality, thus permitting experimentation
and.......
|
|
| Not trying to start anything here but do you mean to imply that the planes
| we build implicitly have "less" quality?| Just asking ...| James
James,
No. I just referred to "the standard 'certified' quality". it might
be better or worse - it just doesn't equal..
Ferg
Message 16
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
"
From: "Garrison Sem" <chasm711@msn.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel Layout -- IFR requirements?
VORs and ADFs in very high lattitudes are oriented to true north in the
Canadian northern control areas. I dont know about the rest of the world.
Paul"
I don't think ADFs should be....... I'm for having them face any way
they want.
Ferg
Message 17
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| Subject: | Not to flog a dead horse |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
"From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Part 91 and "quality"
May I suggest that the word "quality" has no useful meaning?The definition
is so broadly based in the minds of folks whowould use the word that unless
used in a narrow context, it'smore likely to reduce rather than enhance
understanding.
Had a friend years ago who was very enamored of the "quality" in European
cars. His cars spent more time in shop with higher repair bills than my
cars. He was focusing on ride, handling preferences, wood finished panels
and
upholstery. I was focusing on cost of ownership and likelihood of getting
from point A to point B every time I set foot in the car.
If one assumes that the charter of regulators is to truly improve the safety
of airplanes, then anything which increases probability of failures that
cause pilots
to tense up could be dubbed an reduction in "quality". To regulators, this
generally translates to EVERYTHING bolted to an airplane needs to be the
best we know how to do? Geesh, even a NASA budget won't get you failure
proof components and systems.
The biggest difference between the OBAM and certified aviation communities
is the fact that no two airplanes are built the same in the OBAM community.
Our airplanes are allowed to evolve on an airplane-to-airplane basis.
If some new useful component or technique is identified, it can be
implemented tomorrow on every new airplane and retrofitted to existing
airplanes the day after. Most of these same neat, new ideas will NEVER find
their way onto a certifies ship.
So, in the narrow context of defining "quality" as evolving toward the
lowest cost aircraft free of mechanically-induced accidents, I'll suggest
that the finest (highest quality?) aircraft to have ever flown are being
built in basements and garages.
The only thing certified aviation has over us is the communications system
presently mandated by the certification procedures. I'd bet that fewer than
10% of all OBAM aircraft builders fully utilize the Internet for idea
sharing. Sadly, this means that most builders will not experience the
advantages
you all enjoy here and on other list-servers.
It also means that some are likely to experience sweat-generating events.
The bright side is that there are plenty of FARs and dark-n-stormy-night
stories to
tap for information. At least their airplanes will be no worst than a C-172,
which really isn't all that bad . . . I've got a lot of hours in C-172s and
I don't walk up to one of them with any sense of trepidation . . .
For those OBAM aircraft builders who chose to go the extra mile in
discovering, trying, filtering and sharing ideas . . . I'll avoid the the
word
"quality" but enthusiastically argue that your airplanes are better than
certified.
Bob . . ."
Bob,
I agree with everything you said (and will defend to the
death.......) HOWEVER:
Because my question was ignored in favour of another diversion altogether, I
must point out the "quality" is still a useful word. I used it instead of
"Quantity", that's all. It has nothing to do with "value".
Webster's Third International - "Quality": 1a - peculiar and essential
character; 1b - a distinctive and inherent feature.
PS: I agree about the quality of European cars. I've put my foot through the
rusty floor of several.
I say again. "
"Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
certificates...."
Is that us?
Ferg
Do not archive
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | D-sub current limits |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic@comcast.net>
Bob,
I've searched the archive but cannot find the reference to current which a D-sub
pin can carry. I recall that you suggested paralleling the pins with 6 to 12
inches of #24 wire stubs to balance current distribution if more than 6 amps
was needed, but I'm not sure if memory serves here. They are my favorite connector.
Jim Foerster
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Not to flog a dead horse |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brett Ferrell" <bferrell@123mail.net>
Don't think so, Experimental (OBAM) are issued "Special" AW certificates...
FAR 21:
"
21.175 Airworthiness certificates: classification
(a) Standard airworthiness certificates are airworthiness certificates
issued for aircraft type certificated in the normal, utility, acrobatic,
commuter, or transport category, and for manned free balloons, and for
aircraft designated by the Administrator as special classes of aircraft.
(b) Special airworthiness certificates are primary, restricted, limited,
and provisional airworthiness certificates, special flight permits, and
experimental certificates.
"
Brett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Not to flog a dead horse
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>
> "From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Part 91 and "quality"
> May I suggest that the word "quality" has no useful meaning?The definition
> is so broadly based in the minds of folks whowould use the word that
unless
> used in a narrow context, it'smore likely to reduce rather than enhance
> understanding.
>
> Had a friend years ago who was very enamored of the "quality" in European
> cars. His cars spent more time in shop with higher repair bills than my
> cars. He was focusing on ride, handling preferences, wood finished panels
> and
> upholstery. I was focusing on cost of ownership and likelihood of getting
> from point A to point B every time I set foot in the car.
>
> If one assumes that the charter of regulators is to truly improve the
safety
> of airplanes, then anything which increases probability of failures that
> cause pilots
> to tense up could be dubbed an reduction in "quality". To regulators, this
> generally translates to EVERYTHING bolted to an airplane needs to be the
> best we know how to do? Geesh, even a NASA budget won't get you failure
> proof components and systems.
>
> The biggest difference between the OBAM and certified aviation communities
> is the fact that no two airplanes are built the same in the OBAM
community.
> Our airplanes are allowed to evolve on an airplane-to-airplane basis.
>
> If some new useful component or technique is identified, it can be
> implemented tomorrow on every new airplane and retrofitted to existing
> airplanes the day after. Most of these same neat, new ideas will NEVER
find
> their way onto a certifies ship.
>
> So, in the narrow context of defining "quality" as evolving toward the
> lowest cost aircraft free of mechanically-induced accidents, I'll suggest
> that the finest (highest quality?) aircraft to have ever flown are being
> built in basements and garages.
>
> The only thing certified aviation has over us is the communications system
> presently mandated by the certification procedures. I'd bet that fewer
than
> 10% of all OBAM aircraft builders fully utilize the Internet for idea
> sharing. Sadly, this means that most builders will not experience the
> advantages
> you all enjoy here and on other list-servers.
>
> It also means that some are likely to experience sweat-generating events.
> The bright side is that there are plenty of FARs and dark-n-stormy-night
> stories to
> tap for information. At least their airplanes will be no worst than a
C-172,
> which really isn't all that bad . . . I've got a lot of hours in C-172s
and
> I don't walk up to one of them with any sense of trepidation . . .
>
> For those OBAM aircraft builders who chose to go the extra mile in
> discovering, trying, filtering and sharing ideas . . . I'll avoid the the
> word
> "quality" but enthusiastically argue that your airplanes are better than
> certified.
> Bob . . ."
>
> Bob,
> I agree with everything you said (and will defend to the
> death.......) HOWEVER:
> Because my question was ignored in favour of another diversion altogether,
I
> must point out the "quality" is still a useful word. I used it instead of
> "Quantity", that's all. It has nothing to do with "value".
>
> Webster's Third International - "Quality": 1a - peculiar and essential
> character; 1b - a distinctive and inherent feature.
> PS: I agree about the quality of European cars. I've put my foot through
the
> rusty floor of several.
>
> I say again. "
> "Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
> certificates...."
> Is that us?
> Ferg
>
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: D-sub current limits |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:13 PM 8/12/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster"
><jmfpublic@comcast.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>I've searched the archive but cannot find the reference to current which a
>D-sub pin can carry. I recall that you suggested paralleling the pins
>with 6 to 12 inches of #24 wire stubs to balance current distribution if
>more than 6 amps was needed, but I'm not sure if memory serves here. They
>are my favorite connector.
They're rated nominally at 5A. For continuous higher current
applications I de-rate them to 4A and parallel at the end of 22AWG
wires . . . 6 - 12 inches long.
I have some d-subs carrying 40+ amps (10 pins) in a couple of applications
that have been through some pretty punishing qualification tests.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Not to flog a dead horse |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
<snip>
>For those OBAM aircraft builders who chose to go the extra mile in
>discovering, trying, filtering and sharing ideas . . . I'll avoid the the
>word
>"quality" but enthusiastically argue that your airplanes are better than
>certified.
>Bob . . ."
>
>Bob,
> I agree with everything you said (and will defend to the
>death.......) HOWEVER:
>Because my question was ignored in favour of another diversion altogether, I
>must point out the "quality" is still a useful word. I used it instead of
>"Quantity", that's all. It has nothing to do with "value".
>
>Webster's Third International - "Quality": 1a - peculiar and essential
>character; 1b - a distinctive and inherent feature.
>PS: I agree about the quality of European cars. I've put my foot through the
>rusty floor of several.
Understand . . . but when you open a dictionary keep in mind
that folks who publish them do not SET definitions, they
only TRACK them. The dictionary gets new words and definitions
to old words every time it is published. Once a word, like
"quality" finds its way into tons of advertising hype,
and every other politician's stump speech, what understanding
is conveyed between us unless I use the word in a narrow context
that makes the meaning very clear? Further, if it's necessary
to clarify the meaning every time it's used, then I'll suggest
the word has lost unique meaning and becomes superfluous to
the conversation . . . even "value" (another non-word popular
with advertisers and politicians) had to be defined as
a cost of ownership and dispatch reliability issue.
>I say again. "Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
>certificates...."
> Is that us?
>Ferg
Close. OBAM aircraft are blessed with an
FAA Form 8130-7, SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE.
This is the same piece of paper one needs to
ferry a "substandard" airplane to a qualified
repair facility.
See:
http://www2.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/images/SpecialAWCertFront.gif
You can get a snapshot of the the FAA's view of US
amateur built aircraft at
http://av-info.faa.gov/dst/amateur/
of particular interest are AC20-27 at:
http://av-info.faa.gov/dst/amateur/ac20-27e.pdf
and this document at:
http://aea.faa.gov/aea200/ea01/Checklist.htm
Bob . . .
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: RG58 Coax article I promised |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brian & Debi Shannon" <wings@theshannons.net>
Bob -
>
> Great article (LSE RG58 Coax...) as usual...Any chance of posting it as
a
> .pdf file so we can easily save/file it for future use?
>
> Thanks
---
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Switches vs relays for lights, |
strobes
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:40 AM 8/12/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster"
><jmfpublic@comcast.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>My intention is to use switches rated for the load. Also, the switch
>panel has been designed for easy replacement of the switches, from the
>pilots seat, with PIDG terminals and enough slack wire to facilitate the job.
>
>You asked what switches I'm using. For the high current lighting, I have
>found an internally lighted Radio Shack 275-0712 unit that is rated for 30
>amps. They do have a spec sheet, which reads:
>
>Switch (275-0712) Specifications Faxback Doc. # 16582
>
>Model #:...........................................................R13-133B
>Switching Function (Circuit):................................3P SPSP ON-OFF
>Rating:..........................................................30A 12V DC
>Contact Resistance:...........................................50 m/ohms Max
>Insulation Resistance:...............................DC 500V 100 m/ohms Min
>Voltage Breakdown:........................................AC 1500V 1 minute
>Lamp Rating:...........................................DC 12V 50 mA +/- 10%
>
>I bought one and it looks nice with the built-in red indicator. I like
>the idea of a lighted switch when I have high drain power running. This
>switch mounts in a round hole, and if it fails, replacement is easy. As
>you have said, corrosion is more likely to fail a switch than burned
>contacts.
>
>All the other panel switches are also rocker units with FASTON tabs for
>PIDG terminals.
Sounds like they'll do well for you as long as you don't need
any special functions like center-off, progressive transfers,
or more than one pole. I suspect that the lamp is wired internally
to the terminal you would use as the "output" terminal wherein
the lamp illuminates any time the switch is ON. You could use
the "output" terminal for power and the lamp would be illuminated
all the time to show the whole row of switches. To dim these, you'll
need to provide a ground-side dimmer circuit of some kind. Perhaps
a fixed-levels, bright-dim circuit that senses position lights and goes
to the dim mode when you turn the lights on.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: IFR requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
wrote:
>
> The rule acknowledges that there are multiple
> ways
> to deduce which way you are heading (or
> tracking).
>
Bob and other Kansans,
The latest gadget in the marine industry is a GPS
compass. Consists of 2 GPS antennas, a couple feet
apart, aligned with the centerline of the ship. The
relative GPS positions of the two antennas determine
the heading of the ship. Quite expensive now, but I
suspect we'll see them down the road.
Still planning on having a "wet" compass...
--Tio Rico
do not archive
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: RG58 Coax article I promised |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:44 PM 8/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brian & Debi Shannon"
><wings@theshannons.net>
>
>Bob -
> >
> > Great article (LSE RG58 Coax...) as usual...Any chance of posting it as
>a
> > .pdf file so we can easily save/file it for future use?
Sure.
http://216.55.140.222/articles/RG58//LightSpeedRG58.pdf
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: IFR requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:09 PM 8/12/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
>
>
>--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>wrote:
> >
> > The rule acknowledges that there are multiple
> > ways
> > to deduce which way you are heading (or
> > tracking).
> >
>
>Bob and other Kansans,
>
>The latest gadget in the marine industry is a GPS
>compass. Consists of 2 GPS antennas, a couple feet
>apart, aligned with the centerline of the ship. The
>relative GPS positions of the two antennas determine
>the heading of the ship. Quite expensive now, but I
>suspect we'll see them down the road.
this would certainly resolve heading
at zero velocity, very seldom necessary in
an airplane . . . except to verify that you're
pointed down the right runway before pouring
on the coal.
There's probably some relatively low cost
GPS engines that could resolve static heading
from antennas on two wingtips. I'm not sure I
really want to know THAT bad . . .
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Cessna-type panel light dimmer replacement? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ronald Cox" <racox@ix.netcom.com>
Thanks much, Bob.
That wirewound part is exactly what I'm replacing.
I bought one of those from you a year or so ago, and it's not working now.
I thought I'd bought it on eBay, but as I look at the site and you remind
me, yours is the kit I bought. I still have the knob, and bulb setup.
Installed the rheostat alone.
The 1963 Cessna has a pair of bulbs in the overhead, with red lenses, and
sliders for the "map light".
The problem is that as soon as I installed it, I could tell that the value
wasn't the same as the one I took out. It didn't light at all until almost
full rotation, and then went quickly to full bright. The part number isn't
exactly the same as the one I removed, either.
Now, after only about a year in the panel, it's become intermittent, so it's
either burned (burning) up or something else is mechanically wrong. I've
checked the connections, but I have to fiddle with it at full rotation to
even get the lights on at all. Last flight, I thought it wasn't going to
come on at all, but it finally did.
It's a bastard to get at, so I'm not looking forward to replacing it again.
I'd love to install the dimmer kit, I know it is better, but as you've said
here, it ain't been "blessed" by the powers that be. Therefore, in a
certified spam-can, I suspect it would be frowned upon by the FAA more than
an equivalent resistor if seen sometime after installation. (I have bought
3 of them for my Glasair, and they work great on the bench.)
Looks like from that catalog page that one of the Allied CR series resistors
would probably do it. With the symptoms I'm seeing with the one I already
bought, I think I'll need a smaller value than 75Ohms, since that one didn't
go to full brightness until nearly full travel. Does that sound correct?
If that doesn't do the trick, maybe I'll have to order the overpriced S.O.B.
from Cessna by part number... I just know it won't work any better than the
original. <g>
Thanks,
Ron
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ronald
> >Cox
> >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cessna-type panel light dimmer replacement?
> >
> >
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ronald Cox"
<racox@ix.netcom.com>
> >
> >If one were to do so, not that I ever would, but if...
> >
> >What would the appropriate value be for a generic replacement variable
> >resistor for use in an older Cessna panel light dimmer be? I'd love to
use
> >one of Bob's dimmer setups, but it is a certified spam-can.
> >
> >I recently replaced it with what was supposed to be a cross-referenced
part,
> >but it wasn't the right value, lights only came on near full on position,
> >and now it's already burned out. This is an older ship ('63) with the
only
> >lights in the overhead, so not much power. Radios, etc., each have their
> >own dimming circuits built-in
> >
> >The value would allow me to check a supposed replacement part for the
> >correct resistance range. Yeah, that's it.
> >
> >What resistance range do (would) I need, and linear or audio taper?
>
> How many lights are in the overhead? Most of the airplanes
> I've worked with had a single, lamp rated at 200 to 250 mA.
> The rheostat for this lamp was a special, 75 ohm, 12 watt,
> wirewound device with a discontinuity at the max ccw end
> so that full left rotation would shut the lamp completely
> OFF. These were ordered from Ohmite by the thousands but
> were never a catalog item. If you are dimming a single lamp
> as described above, you can get a CR-12.5-100
> at http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.asp?FN=546.pdf
> and get reasonable behavior or you can order one of
> our SDK-1 dimmer kits at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
>
> which contains the rheostat used in the Cessnas. I
> found a quantity of these surplus about a year
> ago and they are nearly gone.
>
> Bob . . .
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: IFR requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: richard@riley.net
At 07:55 PM 8/12/03 -0500, you wrote:
> There's probably some relatively low cost
> GPS engines that could resolve static heading
> from antennas on two wingtips. I'm not sure I
> really want to know THAT bad . . .
Yes, but when that solution exists, there will be a low cost GPS engine for
pitch and roll attitude. And I DO want that information.
Do not archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Brushes for Aircraft |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Received a phone call this evening from a builder worried
about "non altitude rated" brushes in his alternator.
Dug through the archives and came up with a copy of an article
I did for SA about 10 years ago. I've updated it and
posted at:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/BrushesForAircraft.pdf
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drew.schumann@us.army.mil
It appears that Mr. Nuckolls is too polite to point out the obvious disconnect
in this post. Did not the customer in this instance have to put up with repeated
bad customer service, unadulterated b.s. by company employees and having to
pay for the company's mistakes several times over?
It is extremely interesting how good customer service gets once publicity is involved.
If Rich is serious about his "100% customer satisfaction" pledge, perhaps
a refund of ALL the money paid by the customer for Sky-Tec's shoddy product
to be repaired, every time he sent it in, rather than just this ONE TIME, when
negative publicity was involved. I am not familiar with this product (Sky-Tec
starters) but I, as a former customer service trainer am well-aware of this
brand of customer disservice.
Have a nice day.
Drew
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Chiappe <richc@skytecair.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rich Chiappe"
> <richc@skytecair.com>
> While it has taken a while for me to find the matronics
> aeroelectric-list I
> am nonetheless very glad I was able to do so.
>
> My name is Rich Chiappe and I am the Manager of Sky-Tec, the Flyweight
> Starter manufacturer, and I would be more than happy to address
> the question
> of Sky-Tec starter failures. Denis, if you haven't already sent those
> solenoids off for inspection by Mr. Nuckolls, I too would be more
> than happy
> to open your solenoids and photograph the results for all to see
> on this
> board or even our website if you desire. We actually have a tool
> made-up
> for splitting the solenoids. Just please understand I suspect
> that Mr.
> Nuckolls' (who posted previously) motivation for "helping" may be
> less than
> neutral given his proximity to Sky-Tec's nearest competitor, B&C
> Products of
> Newton (Witchita) Kansas.
>
> First off, for what it's worth, I would like you all to understand the
> statements I make here are sincere and based on facts. I will
> leave the
> marketing "spin" at the door and pledge to you my sincere desire
> to offer
> you any information positive or negative about our products in the
> hopesthat you will be completely and fairly informed about them.
>
> Our goal at Sky-Tec is 100% customer satisfaction. Given the fact
> that we
> make a mechanical device that is used in a completely
> uncontrollable range
> of environments, we understand that some portion of our products will
> experience difficulties and/or failures. It just goes with the
> territory.But it is our hope that even those unpleasurable
> experiences be restored to
> satisfaction by our unmatched support and professionalism. As I
> mentionedto Mr. Walsh in a separate e-mail, if we fail to succeed
> in the latter, then
> we simply deserve to lose your business. But understand our
> efforts are
> sincere and whole-hearted.
>
> Yes, under extreme vibration (see next paragraph), the solenoids on
> Sky-Tec's LS and PM starters can become what we refer to as
> "pitted". As I
> was more than eager to show many of you at our booth at Oshkosh
> using our
> cut-away LS starter, LS and PM starters manufactured before August
> of 2002
> were manufactured with a mount that enabled the solenoid plunger
> to be "held
> off" its seat when the starter was in the rested position.
> Looking at the
> geometry of our starter(or B&C's for that matter), you'll notice the
> solenoid is a long moment away from the centerline of your engine.
> That
> long moment transfers that vibration to the solenoid and in it's
> "held-off"
> position, it is enable to 'wiggle' in it's insulative housing.
> Over time,
> under continued vibration, that solenoid plunger may wiggle itself
> a "pit"
> into the interior wall of its insulation. When the plunger comes
> to rest in
> that pit and an owner goes to fire the starter, in severe cases, the
> solenoid may not be strong enough to 'climb out' of this pit
> resulting in
> NOTHING (a click with NO starter activity). An immediately
> subsequent start
> attempt may find the plunger safely away from its 'pit' and the
> starterfires as it should and you experience all the GOOD things
> about a Sky-Tec
> starter (fast spin, quick start). But the condition is typically
> accompanied by intermittent operation.
>
> We have addressed this issue by changing one operation of the
> precisionmachining on our mounts which now allows the solenoid to
> "seat" fully and
> resists vibration almost entirely. This change was made in
> August, 2002.
>
> Now, a note on vibration. I am not referring to the vibration we ALL
> experience with our horizontally opposed Lycomings (yes, I realize
> they ALL
> vibrate - I realize these aren't Ferrari 12 cylinder racing
> engines). You
> should see my Starduster shake on shutdown! So no, I don't think our
> expectation is that you can balance a sandbag on the cowling, much
> less a
> quarter as Mr. O'Connor humorously suggested. The severe
> vibration we're
> referring to is an extreme case where an engine has a harmonic or
> otherimbalance which imparts an abnormal (for a Lycoming engine)
> level of
> vibration to engine accessories including the starter/solenoid.
>
> Remember, as we state (all too often probably), Sky-Tec has 25,000-
> 30,000starters out there in service. And I (yes, I'm the guy who
> receives the
> repairs) will see only 2-5 come back to the factory each week
> which failed
> (or became intermittent) with a pitted solenoid problem. Most of
> these we
> will fix under warranty and in so doing will replace the mount
> with the post
> August 2002 machine cut that allows the solenoid to REST fully in the
> retracted position which GREATLY reduces the movement of the solenoid
> plunger and virtually eliminates the tendency to 'pit' the inside
> of the
> insulation. The remainder of those 20K+ starters are performing as
> engineered well past engine TBO's.
>
> So what do we propose as a resolution if you suspect your engine
> experiencesabnormal vibration or an intermittent Sky-Tec starter?
> - Have the prop dynamically balanced (we will try to ask this
> question of
> you only once in future conversations - sorry about that, Denis)
> - At annual or other convenient time, send me your starter and I will
> replace the mount with one with the post 8/02 machining cut in it.
> I will
> not charge for this. You pay only shipping and any other repair
> costs (if
> any) you wish us to perform while we have the starter.
> - For harsh operating environments (including high-vibration
> applications),we recommend the Sky-Tec HT (including the new HTI)
> line of starters. They
> do not utilize the same solenoid design and as a result are more
> 'heavy-duty' and rugged. Remember also that HT/HTI's are the
> ONLY starter
> recommended for Lycoming-powered rotorcraft. If you would like to
> 'upgrade'to an HT, we can discuss a 'trade-up' program - just
> contact me directly for
> details.
>
> Above all, if you ever have a question about our starters -
> operation or
> lack thereof - please do not hesitate to contact me directly or
> through this
> board (I will try to get in a habit of monitoring the digest
> regularly).
> In all, I think you all will find and the market will continue to
> prove that
> Sky-Tec manufactures a superior starter over any of its heavy or light
> weight competitors. From time to time, we anticipate there will
> be failures
> but pledge to address them with unmatchable customer service. We also
> pledge to keep our discussions to facts - those being RELEVANT
> facts too.
> For instance, our competitors love to distract with irrelevant
> facts like
> "plastic gears" and "ball bearings". So let me be up-front: Yes
> we have
> "plastic gears" in our LS/PM starters and the LS/PM line does not
> use ball
> bearings in its design - but there are good reasons for both of
> these which
> I will discuss on a separate post if necessary not the least of
> which is our
> starters have NEVER died because of either of these components!
> Because of
> this, clearly discussion of such minutia is a smoke screen used to
> disctractus from the core discussion: how do they work, how will
> they last, and how
> will you take care of me if it doesn't.
>
> Also, to address another previous post: NO - Sky-Tec 24V starters
> utilize24V solenoids - not 12V solenoids. Beyond putting an ohm-
> meter on them, one
> way to confirm this is to look at our prices of 24V starters - see
> how much
> more they are than the 12V starters? That's because of how much
> it costs me
> to have those 24V armatures and solenoids manufactured to our
> specs - they
> are not inexpensive to have made (right). Man, just how do these
> innacuracies get started out there anyway? Please call me if you
> have other
> questions so we can keep things based on the facts and not
> speculation.
> If there's anything we can do at the factory to support you
> better, please
> feel free to contact me directly:
>
> - Rich Chiappe
> Sky-Tec
> 350 Howard Clemons Rd
> Granbury, Texas 76048
> (800) 476-7896
> richc@skytecair.com
> www.skytecair.com
>
>
> _-
> _-
> _-
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid |
Failures
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Drew Hi!
> It appears that Mr. Nuckolls is too polite to point out the obvious disconnect
> in this post. Did not the customer in this instance have to put up with
> repeated bad customer service, unadulterated b.s. by company employees and
> having to pay for the company's mistakes several times over?
It may be that Bob like many of us with a lot of years of 'life' experience
tends to at least appreciate a response regardless of what stimulus started
it.
After many years of dealing with Customers, in fact still doing so there is
a maxim I work to as I analyse a poor situation.
It tends to be. 'Their story', 'My story' and the 'truth'. Somewhere in that
chaos is the problem and then the solution good for all.
Sky-Tec may have problems, The Customer may not be blameless to those
problems either but there are a fair enough percentage of satisfied
Customers to say the product doesnt need slamming, just some dialogue with
the Vendor to ensure he is aware of its shortfall.
Unfortunately you may have nailed the problem with the word 'employee'.
Sometimes the passion and concern felt at the top looses its focus at shop
floor level without the Main Man even knowing.
>
> It is extremely interesting how good customer service gets once publicity is
> involved.
This is very true in all products and Services. It's a great lever for
Customers but is open to abuse too.
After a lot of rambling from me of which most is in agreement lets at least
acknowledge that Sky-Tec are talking in open forum and at senior level where
responsibility to fix things will be made.
Sorry it's early morning and I'm having a 'fair minded' day. I leave my more
strident attitudes for the politics and politicians of the day!!
Back to Panel wiring now!
Kind Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
Europa 384
G-FIZY
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
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