Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:16 AM - Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures (drew.schumann@us.army.mil)
2. 12:52 AM - Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid (Gerry Holland)
3. 04:48 AM - Re: Ground loops (Van Caulart)
4. 05:00 AM - Re: ADF reversed sensing (Van Caulart)
5. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: ADF reversed sensing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 06:18 AM - slick mag tack sensor. (Ron Raby)
7. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: ADF reversed sensing (BobsV35B@aol.com)
8. 06:27 AM - Sky-Tec starter mount identification (Rich Chiappe)
9. 06:48 AM - Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:31 AM - Re: Cessna-type panel light dimmer replacement (MikeM)
11. 11:05 AM - The book I wish I'd written . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 12:38 PM - Re: OV Module question for Bob (Dave Grosvenor)
13. 04:52 PM - Re: Light Dimmer (John Schroeder)
14. 11:26 PM - voltage converter fuse, or?? (drew.schumann@us.army.mil)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drew.schumann@us.army.mil
Hello Gerry,
When I first read the post, my first reaction was "How interesting!" and went about
my day. Upon further reflection, I noted the touch of insinuation at the
beginning that Bob was being less than fair in this issue. That's what touched
my "hot" button. Bob hawks the B&C product, for xyz reasons, and compares
it to the Sky-Tec product in specific ways, which may or may not be relevant.
Sky-Tec manager dude responds with a "shot across the bow" to open his post.
HUGE red flags pop up in the back of my head whenever that happens. Combine
that with the nature of the complaint, and shazam! I am in need of a better explanation
than the one given.
I fully understand your point about the truth lying somewhere in between. I also
believe in the "walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" analogy.
Peace,
Drew
----- Original Message -----
From: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid Failures
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland
> <gnholland@onetel.com>
> Drew Hi!
>
> > It appears that Mr. Nuckolls is too polite to point out the
> obvious disconnect
> > in this post. Did not the customer in this instance have to put
> up with
> > repeated bad customer service, unadulterated b.s. by company
> employees and
> > having to pay for the company's mistakes several times over?
>
> It may be that Bob like many of us with a lot of years of 'life'
> experiencetends to at least appreciate a response regardless of
> what stimulus started
> it.
>
> After many years of dealing with Customers, in fact still doing so
> there is
> a maxim I work to as I analyse a poor situation.
>
> It tends to be. 'Their story', 'My story' and the 'truth'.
> Somewhere in that
> chaos is the problem and then the solution good for all.
>
> Sky-Tec may have problems, The Customer may not be blameless to those
> problems either but there are a fair enough percentage of satisfied
> Customers to say the product doesnt need slamming, just some
> dialogue with
> the Vendor to ensure he is aware of its shortfall.
>
> Unfortunately you may have nailed the problem with the word
> 'employee'.Sometimes the passion and concern felt at the top
> looses its focus at shop
> floor level without the Main Man even knowing.
> >
> > It is extremely interesting how good customer service gets once
> publicity is
> > involved.
>
> This is very true in all products and Services. It's a great lever for
> Customers but is open to abuse too.
>
> After a lot of rambling from me of which most is in agreement lets
> at least
> acknowledge that Sky-Tec are talking in open forum and at senior
> level where
> responsibility to fix things will be made.
>
> Sorry it's early morning and I'm having a 'fair minded' day. I
> leave my more
> strident attitudes for the politics and politicians of the day!!
>
> Back to Panel wiring now!
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Gerry
>
> Gerry Holland
> Europa 384
> G-FIZY
> +44 7808 402404
> gnholland@onetel.com
>
>
> _-
> _-
> _-
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid |
Failures
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Drew Hi!
I guess you're not stateside at this time. I wont ask where you are but I
can guess. Spent a few visits to that area in past couple of years.
Interesting!! and probably miles from any perceptions held back home! I did
my 6 years in the Royal Air Force in the 60's. A not to be missed
opportunity as we knew where the enemy was. Just point everything East. It's
not so easy now.
> I fully understand your point about the truth lying somewhere in between. I
> also believe in the "walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" analogy.
>
Great phrase and I know how you feel when the red 'mist' comes down on
issues. I've just bombarded the BBC on a few different topics and there
handing in the media. I felt better. They just said my opinion was to
strident to publish. Really.
Again thanks for reply and peace is a great word. Problem: The translation
from English is just not working for some people!!
I'm taking liberty of attaching a photo of my project so you can see the
easy life that eventually arrives. It's about the only advantage of getting
old! Ready for painting next month and should fly before Christmas if I can
beat the 'paperwork' mountain.
Take care
Kind Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
Europa 384
G-FIZY
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Ground loops |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Van Caulart <etivc@iaw.on.ca>
Time: 09:59:31 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Loops
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:20 PM 8/10/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Van Caulart <etivc@iaw.on.ca>
>
>Bob & List:
>
>During a recent addition of an RST audio panel, an ARC ADF, and a 2nd
>comm (UPSAT SL30) to our stock '68 C177 I have had my share of
>electronic gremlins haunting the job. One is alternator noise and the
>other is the beacon noise.
Any filter you put on the back of the alternator will
have a beneficial effect ONLY on ADF and/or LORAN reception.
These are effective in the low frequency radio ranges and have
no benefits for AUDIO rate noises (ripple voltage) that is
built in to every alternator.
OK thats good to know so I'll leave the alt filter in line for the time
being.
>I have done the obvious things such as fat wire separation and shields
>connected only at the source of the noise but now I'm lost.
I get a lot of requests like this. It's got to be frustrating
to the well intentioned owner/builder who is trying to understand
and fix the problem himself . . . it's frustrating for me to
figure out a way to describe the full range of troubleshooting
techniques and tools in a few paragraphs of a list-server
inquiry. Tell you what, order my book. If the chapter on
noise mitigation doesn't help you identify and break
the chain of victim-propagation-source links, I'll refund
your money.
Great offer thanks, which tells me that it's got to be simple problem. I
do have your book (a great living work BTW). So I'll reread the chapter
and employ all the tips and see what happens from there.
>Regarding the beacon noise, is there a filter which I can use (make) to
>tame this annoyance. Because it pulses, it really is an antagonistic
>little devil after several hours flying.
Try running the strobe from a pair of 6v lantern batteries
located right at the power supply and see if you still
hear the noise. If so, then a filter installed right at the
power supply will help.
I'd try a S251D479 capacitor from B&C which you can buy
at http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218
A local parts store might be able to supply you with
a computer grade, electrolytic with 10,000 uf or more,
16v or more. Wire it right across the power input
leads to the strobe power supply. This will probably
reduce the noise and maybe eliminate it. At worst,
we may have to consider adding some filter inductance
in series with the strobe supply too.
If the lantern battery experiment doesn't show that
noise is getting onto the system via the 14v supply,
it's a whole new ball game . . . but one step at a time.
Thank you Bob, thank you. With this info and that of Mike Mladejovsky
regarding the Cap in the RST audio panel, I'm going to get results.
I'll let you know how it turns out.
PeterVC
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: ADF reversed sensing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Van Caulart <etivc@iaw.on.ca>
I installed an ARC 300 ADF rcvr and indicator which were inspected and
taggged servicible. I was also supplied with a serviceable sense
antenna, the cables to the loop ant, and the harness/connectors to the
rcvr. My part was to hook up the connectors and install the indicator
and antennas. I only had to connect power, ground and the audio output.
My problem is that the needle of the indicator points in reverse to the
station selected. I'm wondering if this couuld be a bad loop antenna or
somehow related to my ground loop problems
PeterVC
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: ADF reversed sensing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:56 AM 8/13/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Van Caulart <etivc@iaw.on.ca>
>
>I installed an ARC 300 ADF rcvr and indicator which were inspected and
>taggged servicible. I was also supplied with a serviceable sense
>antenna, the cables to the loop ant, and the harness/connectors to the
>rcvr. My part was to hook up the connectors and install the indicator
>and antennas. I only had to connect power, ground and the audio output.
>
>My problem is that the needle of the indicator points in reverse to the
>station selected. I'm wondering if this couuld be a bad loop antenna or
>somehow related to my ground loop problems
ADF loop antennas were commonly installed on both upper and lower
surfaces of the fuselage which forced a rotation select
option in the harness . . . there was a pair of wires that needed
to be reversed in the harness to set proper direction of rotation
of indicator needle with respect to the loop. There's a second set
of wires that would control direction of pointing. It's been a
VERY long time since I poked through the operating principals
of these radios, but I think location of the two antennas with
respect to each other and the airplane might produce the anomaly
you're observing. The should be covered in detail in the installation
manual for the radio along with a chart of pin-connections that
describe hookup unique to your installation.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | slick mag tack sensor. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
My enjine came with slick mags. One of the mags has a tack sensor lead
coming out of it. I have the JPI edm 900. They give you the sensor to go
into the slick mags. The only problem is that you have to remove a mag to
install the sensor.
My question is does anyone know if the slick sensor will work with the EDM
system? Not a big deal to remove a mag. Just trying to save some time.
Thanks
Ron Raby
Lancair ES
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: ADF reversed sensing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 8/13/03 7:01:00 AM Central Daylight Time, etivc@iaw.on.ca
writes:
> My problem is that the needle of the indicator points in reverse to the
> station selected. I'm wondering if this could be a bad loop antenna or
> somehow related to my ground loop problems
Good Morning Pete,
The ADF antennas were sometimes mounted on the top of the airplane and other
times on the bottom. Consequently, there is always some method of setting the
unit up for either a top mounted antenna or one that is mounted on the
bottom. Check the install manual or talk to an installer who has been around for
a
while.
Nothing wrong with your set!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 8
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| Subject: | Sky-Tec starter mount identification |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rich Chiappe" <richc@skytecair.com>
Todd wrote: "I purchased a low time Sky-Tec starter (LS) second hand and
would like to know
how to tell if it has the post August 2002 mount?"
Shoot me an e-mail with your starter's serial number and I'll be able to
confirm for you.
- Rich Chiappe
Sky-Tec
350 Howard Clemons Rd
Granbury, Texas 76048
(800) 476-7896
richc@skytecair.com
www.skytecair.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Root Cause of Sky-Tec Starter Solenoid |
Failures
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>It may be that Bob like many of us with a lot of years of 'life' experience
>tends to at least appreciate a response regardless of what stimulus started
>it.
True. I wish all suppliers to the OBAM aircraft market would spend
more time on the lists. I KNOW that it takes a lot of time but from
both the manufacturer's and builder's perspective, I think it's
time well spent. I've spent $thousands$ on print ads that produced
not a single phone call much less and order. Sky-Tec has a huge
advertising budget . . . if they dumped but one print ad to pay for
the time some knowledgeable individual with the company charter to
"make things right" I'm betting their return on investment will
be better than for the ad.
>After many years of dealing with Customers, in fact still doing so there is
>a maxim I work to as I analyse a poor situation.
>
>It tends to be. 'Their story', 'My story' and the 'truth'. Somewhere in that
>chaos is the problem and then the solution good for all.
>
>Sky-Tec may have problems, The Customer may not be blameless to those
>problems either but there are a fair enough percentage of satisfied
>Customers to say the product doesnt need slamming, just some dialogue with
>the Vendor to ensure he is aware of its shortfall.
For Sky-Tec, Rich is obviously "da man" . . . and he may have
others who can take on a role of customer service ombudsman . . .
A company can do no better than to conduct these activities
out in front of everyone . . . like on a list-server.
Had an engineering manager years ago who was fond of handing
out "atta-boys" to the point where it was annoying. He was
quick to point out that one "aw-s$#t" would wipe out ten
"atta-boys." He would hand those out from time to time too.
Sky-Tec may indeed have thousands of satisfied customers
but it's a sure bet that one "aw-s#$t" will have an
adverse effect on more than the business from the one
unhappy customer.
Rich, or someone in his employ could be tasked with joining
every list server they can find . . . and then set up the
email client so as to dump all messages not containing
the phrase "sky-tec" or the name of the observer. This
would reduce the flood of e-mails to a very small number
that would serve as an excellent dip-stick into market
perceptions of their product.
Better yet, it would provide potential for very rapid
response to problems before they became an "aw-s#@t."
Imagine how a customer might feel if he received a
positive response to mitigation of his problem before
he even called the factory about it!
I can speak with some authority about B&C's products
because of my long standing relationship with them.
I've also told folks that if they have ANY kind of
a problem with a B&C product and don't get immediate
resolution of the problem on first contact, let me
know. I'll run up to Newton and jump right into
Bill's lap. Rich is too far away so we'll have to
ask him make arrangements for his own well meaning
watch dog.
> >
> > It is extremely interesting how good customer service gets once
> publicity is
> > involved.
>
>This is very true in all products and Services. It's a great lever for
>Customers but is open to abuse too.
That's another advantage of conducting exchanges
about problems in the open forum. The presence of
uninvolved observers has calming effect on the
discussions along with additional, clear thinking
support for analysis of root cause.
Rich and Bill are worthy competitors. I'd like to
see both of them do well . . . and I think they
are doing well. But I'd also like to see customers
making their buy decisions based on perceived value
and trade-offs of features as opposed to selecting
the company with the fewest "aw-s$#t" marks against
them.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Cessna-type panel light dimmer replacement |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeM <mladejov@ced.utah.edu>
> From: "Ronald Cox" <racox@ix.netcom.com>
> That wirewound part is exactly what I'm replacing.
> . . .
> The 1963 Cessna has a pair of bulbs in the overhead, with red lenses, and
> sliders for the "map light".
AFIK, the total current drawn by these two lamps at full
brightness is 1.6A. To make these lamps aproximately half
bright, you would have to reduce the current to 0.8A, meaning
that the rehostat resistance at the mid point would have to be
(14-7)/0.8 = 9 Ohms.
For this reason, I think that the original rehostat was either
25 or 30 Ohms at maximum. The maximum dissipation in the
rehostat takes place at half-brightness, and is 7*0.8 = 5.6W. If
you are using a 750 Ohm (or even 75 Ohm) rehostat, then all of
that dissipation would be taking place in one or two turns of
resistance wire, and I'm not surprised that it burned itself
up...
Also as I remember it, there was an AD against the Cessnas with
the overhead rehostats. Originally, the rehostat was mounted
only on the vacuum-formed plastic that covers the overhead
lamps. At half brightness, the dissipation in the rehostat got
it so hot that it could melt the plastic, and even set it on
fire!
The AD called for making an aluminum bracket which supported the
rehostat shaft, and mounted to the structural aluminum in the
roof, providing a method of conducting heat from the rehostat to
the outside skin of the airframe (infinite heat sink?).
You need to check if this AD was ever complied with on your
aircraft. I know of a 172 that has a "field approved" alternate
compliance with this AD, where the two lamps where replaced by
about 10 High-Brightness LEDs. The LEDs require less that one
tenth of the current, thereby eliminating the fire hazard from
the dimming rehostat.
Mike Mladejovsky
Skylane '1MM
Message 11
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| Subject: | The book I wish I'd written . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
I've been looking for some texts to support an educational
activity with some family young folks who have expressed
and interest in electronics.
I ran across a really nice piece of work in my father-in-law's library
and did some Internet research to check availability of more
copies. Turns out, Mr. Thomas Floyd has done a lot of books
with many current publications offered at over $100 each.
The used book market is well stocked with latest and
earlier editions for as little as $4.
A few weeks ago, there was some discussion about recommended
readings in electronics. I'm prepared to enthusiastically
recommend "Electronics Fundamentals - Circuits, Device and
Applications" by T.L. Floyd . . . I picked up a second edition
for $6.
The writing style is excellent but the illustrations are superb.
For the price, why not check this one out?
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: OV Module question for Bob |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Grosvenor" <dwg@iafrica.com>
Bob, I did a couple of tests this evening before going ahead and shipping
this module over to you. I disconnected my starter motor. Now if I hit the
start button the starter relay pulls in and the OV breaker does not trip.
This I assume means that if there is an OV condition it is being caused by
the starter motor itself? Btw, wiring is as per fig 16 for the 912 and my
module is built from the current cct diagram on your web site using the two
transistors and zener.
Is there anyone else on the list with a Rotax 912, wiring per fig.16 and an
OV module??
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OV Module question for Bob
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:28 AM 8/11/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Grosvenor" <dwg@iafrica.com>
>
>Yes Bob, I do. The battery master contacter I purchased from you with the
>diode fitted. The starter contacter came with my Rotax 912 engine an
>initially I thought it had an internal diode. On first test of the
>electrical system I soon found it didn't as it was causing my fuel flow
>meter to reset. I then fitted a diode. The odd thing it the OV breaker is
>tripping when I push the starter, not when I release it.
Contactors bounce like golf balls. The act of "closing" the
contactor will produce a multitude of short, interruptions
before it finally settles down. I'm not privy to the
specific characteristics of the contactor favored by
Rotax. However, if it's a cranking issue, why have the
alternator switch ON during cranking? If you wait until
after the engine starts to put the OVM on-line, perhaps
this issue will go away.
BTW, the avionics disconnect relay on EXP-Bus products
has been known to trip our ov modules too . . . until
the recommended diode was added across the coil.
> Before fitting the
>10uF cap, it was tripping as I switched the master on.
>Dave
Without having your construction in-hand to test it's dynamic
characteristics, I'm unable to explain its behavior. The
circuit I publish is different than the circuit we build.
The original design calls for a bi-lateral trigger diode
that has gone obsolete. B&C did a lifetime buy of these
part to support their production for the foreseeable future
although one of their products uses the two-transistor+zener
network in lieu of the trigger diode.
I've been able to troubleshoot and fix several DIY ov
modules for builders. If you'd care to send it to me,
I'll check it out. Do I recall you are overseas? Mark
customs tag as "returned for warranty repair".
Some other things to check:
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Light Dimmer |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>> Been looking at some panel lighting pages from several of your wirebooks
>> and would like to try rolling my own dimmer for a confidence-builder. A
>> few questions about the diagram (SWB0298):
>>
> The LM338K is used on BOSS HOG dimmer (5A).
> Take a look at this data package for
> more details on building a smaller device
> with all the details on purchasing parts and
> assembling.
I got almost everything I needed from the file you suggested, but would
like to know the brand, model and source for the 1000 ohm pots. Have
decided to build two of the smaller, 3 amp "Boss Hogs".
>
>> Would this be suitable for LED's?
>
> Maybe . . . depending on how many LEDs are in series, there
> is a network of resistor that can be incorporated to make
> the LED behave something like the incandescent lamp
> with respect to applied voltage.
I will be using one branch of one of the dimmers to control a string of
about 8 or 10 blue green LED's that will be mounted under the glare shield
for panel flood lights. What would the resistor network look like for that?
Many thanks,
John Schroeder
Message 14
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| Subject: | voltage converter fuse, or?? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drew.schumann@us.army.mil
I've had a recent emergency. Some fine individual fried my 230 to 120 voltage
converter's fuse, which appears to have some fine beaded substance in it, I assume
an eutectic salt ala Kidde fire detection system. I get blank looks from
our electrical people when I ask them. Anyone know where I can get a fuse for
it? There is a minimal amount of markings on this little piece of equipment,
but if I knew a source and what's available, I'm sure we can come to a solution.
Drew
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