---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/15/03: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:03 AM - Colored toggles (Larry Bowen) 2. 05:10 AM - Re: Colored toggles (F1Rocket@comcast.net) 3. 06:14 AM - crimpers (Ted Lemen) 4. 06:18 AM - Re: New FAA AC On Amateur Built Aircraft (Cy Galley) 5. 07:31 AM - Battery (Welding) cable feedback (Treff, Arthur) 6. 07:37 AM - Re: Battery (Welding) cable feedback (BobsV35B@aol.com) 7. 08:24 AM - Re: Battery (Welding) cable feedback (Cy Galley) 8. 08:28 AM - Re: Battery (Welding) cable feedback (Dennis O'Connor) 9. 08:30 AM - Re: Battery (Welding) cable feedback (John Rourke) 10. 08:45 AM - Re: Colored toggles (Ross Mickey) 11. 09:19 AM - Re: crimpers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 09:21 AM - Re: 10715 Perry (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 10:00 AM - Re: Battery (Welding) cable feedback (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 11:42 AM - EFIS (Ron Raby) 15. 12:11 PM - Re: EFIS (N823ms@aol.com) 16. 12:24 PM - Re: EFIS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 12:54 PM - Re: EFIS (Ron Raby) 18. 12:56 PM - Re: EFIS (BobsV35B@aol.com) 19. 01:52 PM - Re: ADF reversed sensing (Van Caulart) 20. 01:52 PM - New FAA AC On Amateur Built Aircraft (BAKEROCB@aol.com) 21. 02:06 PM - Re: EFIS (I-Blackler, Wayne R) 22. 02:24 PM - Re: New FAA AC On Amateur Built Aircraft (BobsV35B@aol.com) 23. 02:27 PM - Re: Battery (Welding) cable feedback (John Schroeder) 24. 02:42 PM - Re: EFIS (Terry Watson) 25. 04:37 PM - Re: EFIS (CozyGirrrl@aol.com) 26. 05:04 PM - Battery Cable (Eric M. Jones) 27. 06:15 PM - Re: EFIS (N823ms@aol.com) 28. 06:30 PM - Re: Battery Cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 29. 06:32 PM - Re: EFIS (richard@riley.net) 30. 06:43 PM - Re: EFIS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 31. 06:50 PM - Re: New FAA AC On Amateur Built Aircraft (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 32. 06:54 PM - Re: EFIS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 33. 08:04 PM - Re: EFIS (BobsV35B@aol.com) 34. 11:50 PM - Battery voltage on start (Dave Grosvenor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:54 AM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Colored toggles --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Anyone know where I can get colored rubber boots that fit the toggle switches I've purchased from Bob? Thanks, - Larry Bowen, RV-8 systems Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com 2003 - The year of flight! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:13 AM PST US From: F1Rocket@comcast.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Colored toggles Larry, --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net Go to: http://www.sptpanel.com/index.htm I have them on my panel, pictures on the website in the "Rig/Final Assembly" section if interested. Randy F1 Rocket http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/ > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > > Anyone know where I can get colored rubber boots that fit the toggle > switches I've purchased from Bob? > > Thanks, > > - > Larry Bowen, RV-8 systems > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > 2003 - The year of flight! > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:31 AM PST US From: "Ted Lemen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: crimpers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ted Lemen" Bob, can you give me a list of the crimpers that you reccomend and there prices? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:10 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New FAA AC On Amateur Built Aircraft --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" I think part of the problem is the power failure. Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club Newsletter Editor & EAA TC www.bellanca-championclub.com Actively supporting Aeroncas every day Quarterly newsletters on time Reasonable document reprints 1-518-731-6800 ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New FAA AC On Amateur Built Aircraft > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > In a message dated 8/14/03 8:42:07 PM Central Daylight Time, BAKEROCB@aol.com > writes: > > > << > > http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov > > /2003/pdf/03-20409.pdf>> > > > > I urge all interested in this subject to pass this information on and to > > review and contribute as appropriate to the proposed AC. > > > Good Evening OC, > > All I found at that address was the Federal Register notice. Is there an > address where the proposed document can be accessed via the Internet? > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery (Welding) cable feedback From: "Treff, Arthur" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur" OBAM listers, Having installed my battery wires in my RV-8 I am now having "buyer's remorse". I purchased 2AWG welding cable to wire the rear mounted battery (and master contactor) to the firewall mounted starter solenoid, as well as running a negative cable to the fast on tabs on the firewall. The cable I purchased is the top of the line from McMaster Carr's catalog: Vu-Tron UL Listed Cables- Jacket is chlorinated polyethylene with Class M #34 AWG copper stranding. Cable resists solvents and is more resistant to other factors than standard cable. Temperature range is -58 to +194 F. MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration) approved. CSA certified. Color is orange. I just found out that there's a 'better' quality welding cable, that is tinned copped (mine is not) and the insulation is rated to 125C, mine is rated to 90C, 35C less. According to the chart in the cable specs, at a wire temperature of 90C (195F), the 2AWG can handle a continuous load of 250 amps @600 volts in a 100' run. My run is only 40 feet, the volts are only 12, and the max load is the starter for what, 30 seconds at a whack? I'm also reasoning that at close to an ambient temp of 190F, my blood is about to boil, so I'll have alot larger problems than my battery cable shorting out. So am I splitting hairs in worrying about a 35C difference in insulation and tinned copper wires? The welding cable is used internal to the fuselage, and attached to an RG batt, and it's not a seaplane, so I do not anticipate tons of battery wire internal corrosion. I'm going with Mil spec Tefzel for all FWF applications, however. Where the 10" of 2 AWG welding cable passes the firewall to connect to the starter solenoid, it will be wrapped in firesleeve clamped with SS firesleeve clamps. From there forward, it will be #2 Tefzel. What are your thoughts guys? The 90C welding cable is all cut, ring terms soldered on, shrink tubed, marked, adels clamped, pretty much permanently installed at this point. If it were you, (and you were a fan of using welding cable to begin with) would you yank it out? Art Treff Rv-8 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:51 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery (Welding) cable feedback --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 8/15/03 9:32:42 AM Central Daylight Time, Arthur.Treff@Smartm.com writes: > If it were you, (and you were a fan of using welding cable to begin with) > would you yank it out? > > Art Treff > Rv-8 > Good Morning Art, Go with your gut feeling. If you have doubts now, you will have doubts next year and the following years. Do what feels good to you! Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:45 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery (Welding) cable feedback --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" I feel you are being anal. Many planes have been wired using a lesser cable than you have. Support it well and protect it where it passes thru your structure and forget it. P.S. Don't use your starter for 30 seconds at a time. 5 to 10 seconds should be more than adequate if your engine is in good shape. Plane is less than 20 long. How can you use 40 foot of wire? Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Treff, Arthur" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery (Welding) cable feedback > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur" > > OBAM listers, > > Having installed my battery wires in my RV-8 I am now having "buyer's remorse". I purchased 2AWG welding cable to wire the rear mounted battery (and master contactor) to the firewall mounted starter solenoid, as well as running a negative cable to the fast on tabs on the firewall. The cable I purchased is the top of the line from McMaster Carr's catalog: > Vu-Tron UL Listed Cables- Jacket is chlorinated polyethylene with Class M #34 AWG copper stranding. Cable resists solvents and is more resistant to other factors than standard cable. Temperature range is -58 to +194 F. MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration) approved. CSA certified. Color is orange. > I just found out that there's a 'better' quality welding cable, that is tinned copped (mine is not) and the insulation is rated to 125C, mine is rated to 90C, 35C less. According to the chart in the cable specs, at a wire temperature of 90C (195F), the 2AWG can handle a continuous load of 250 amps @600 volts in a 100' run. My run is only 40 feet, the volts are only 12, and the max load is the starter for what, 30 seconds at a whack? I'm also reasoning that at close to an ambient temp of 190F, my blood is about to boil, so I'll have alot larger problems than my battery cable shorting out. > > So am I splitting hairs in worrying about a 35C difference in insulation and tinned copper wires? The welding cable is used internal to the fuselage, and attached to an RG batt, and it's not a seaplane, so I do not anticipate tons of battery wire internal corrosion. I'm going with Mil spec Tefzel for all FWF applications, however. Where the 10" of 2 AWG welding cable passes the firewall to connect to the starter solenoid, it will be wrapped in firesleeve clamped with SS firesleeve clamps. From there forward, it will be #2 Tefzel. What are your thoughts guys? The 90C welding cable is all cut, ring terms soldered on, shrink tubed, marked, adels clamped, pretty much permanently installed at this point. If it were you, (and you were a fan of using welding cable to begin with) would you yank it out? > > Art Treff > Rv-8 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:52 AM PST US From: "Dennis O'Connor" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery (Welding) cable feedback --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" Nope... Do not tear it out... Tinned is not better than bare for high current uses... Actually, lead/tin has higher resistance than copper, so what you are doing by tinning is coating the surface of each strand with a resistor (albeit a VERY small resistance)... Bare copper strands all shorted together is what you want for what you are doing.. Take a deep breath and keep on trucking.. Denny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Treff, Arthur" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery (Welding) cable feedback > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur" > > OBAM listers, > > Having installed my battery wires in my RV-8 I am now having "buyer's remorse". I purchased 2AWG welding cable to wire the rear mounted battery (and master contactor) to the firewall mounted starter solenoid, as well as running a negative cable to the fast on tabs on the firewall. The cable I purchased is the top of the line from McMaster Carr's catalog: > Vu-Tron UL Listed Cables- Jacket is chlorinated polyethylene with Class M #34 AWG copper stranding. Cable resists solvents and is more resistant to other factors than standard cable. Temperature range is -58 to +194 F. MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration) approved. CSA certified. Color is orange. > I just found out that there's a 'better' quality welding cable, that is tinned copped (mine is not) and the insulation is rated to 125C, mine is rated to 90C, 35C less. According to the chart in the cable specs, at a wire temperature of 90C (195F), the 2AWG can handle a continuous load of 250 amps @600 volts in a 100' run. My run is only 40 feet, the volts are only 12, and the max load is the starter for what, 30 seconds at a whack? I'm also reasoning that at close to an ambient temp of 190F, my blood is about to boil, so I'll have alot larger problems than my battery cable shorting out. > > So am I splitting hairs in worrying about a 35C difference in insulation and tinned copper wires? The welding cable is used internal to the fuselage, and attached to an RG batt, and it's not a seaplane, so I do not anticipate tons of battery wire internal corrosion. I'm going with Mil spec Tefzel for all FWF applications, however. Where the 10" of 2 AWG welding cable passes the firewall to connect to the starter solenoid, it will be wrapped in firesleeve clamped with SS firesleeve clamps. From there forward, it will be #2 Tefzel. What are your thoughts guys? The 90C welding cable is all cut, ring terms soldered on, shrink tubed, marked, adels clamped, pretty much permanently installed at this point. If it were you, (and you were a fan of using welding cable to begin with) would you yank it out? > > Art Treff > Rv-8 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:38 AM PST US From: John Rourke Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery (Welding) cable feedback --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Rourke I did a review of different starter cables several years ago, including the orange Vutron you are using, some "black-rubber generic" welding cable, official av-grade 22759/16 Tefzell-insulated cable, and 3/4" soft copper (for the ground for my canard plane) - I did qualitative tests involving open flame for 60-seconds, and also a 60-second dip test in a solder pot... following that was my quanititative tests (ohms/ft and weight/ft): "The 22759 (I am pretty sure it's Tefzel) produced a little smoke in the flame test, and a very unpleasant odor... but it definitely did not sustain flame and didn't really make much smoke. In the solder pot, it was basically unaffected, except it did soften just a bit. The welding cable did the best of all. The rubber type emitted a smell that was like hot tar, not all that noxious, but refused to burn, even with 60 seconds of open flame on it... it swelled a bit but did not char or burn at all - this was for both the flame test and the dip test. The orange VuTron cable blackened a bit under the flame test, but did not smoke or char or smell at all.... pretty much impervious. Dipping it in the 500-degree solder pot had absolutely no effect (well it tinned the wire....) The VuTron cable is from McMaster-Carr, and according to the catalog the insulation is "chlorinated polyethylene"... all I know is it successfully resisted anything I could throw at it, even better than 22759/16 aviation cable. In the following test, the voltage was measured by taking the voltage between two leads at opposite ends of a sample length of cable, and subtracting the voltage between the two leads when both were at the same end of the cable, to get the Vdrop due only to the lewngth of cable). The Voltage Source was regulated, measured at 11.80 volts, through load of 3.7 Ohms (automotive headlight). Therefore, supply current was approximately 3.2 amps. Cable Length Net Vdrop Ohms/Kft Weight/ft #2 Automotive 9.5(ft) 4.5(mV) .15 .24(lbs) #2 Welding 20.0 9.5 .15 .27 #4 Welding 20.0 14.7 .23 .17 #4 VuTron 20.0 17.4 .27 .24 #4 22759/16-4 43.0 33.7 .24 .14 3/4" I.D. copper 12.25 2.6 .07 .42 tube, .050 walls -John R. P.S.: I had no intention of using the automotive battery cable (PVC insulation) in my aircraft - I only included it for comparison, and it self-destructed rather convincingly - in the open flame test, it burned readily with a large quantity of very noxious black smoke, sustained burning for 20 seconds after the flame was removed, and exhibited a large amount of charring. The dip test was the same except it didn't *quite* catch fire, and didn't make as much smoke (I suspect it would have caught fire if left in the pot another minute or so, but I didn't bother testing further since I already had planeed to elimnate as much PVC as possible from my airplane) Treff, Arthur wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur" > >OBAM listers, > >Having installed my battery wires in my RV-8 I am now having "buyer's remorse". I purchased 2AWG welding cable to wire the rear mounted battery (and master contactor) to the firewall mounted starter solenoid, as well as running a negative cable to the fast on tabs on the firewall. The cable I purchased is the top of the line from McMaster Carr's catalog: >Vu-Tron UL Listed Cables- Jacket is chlorinated polyethylene with Class M #34 AWG copper stranding. Cable resists solvents and is more resistant to other factors than standard cable. Temperature range is -58 to +194 F. MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration) approved. CSA certified. Color is orange. >I just found out that there's a 'better' quality welding cable, that is tinned copped (mine is not) and the insulation is rated to 125C, mine is rated to 90C, 35C less. According to the chart in the cable specs, at a wire temperature of 90C (195F), the 2AWG can handle a continuous load of 250 amps @600 volts in a 100' run. My run is only 40 feet, the volts are only 12, and the max load is the starter for what, 30 seconds at a whack? I'm also reasoning that at close to an ambient temp of 190F, my blood is about to boil, so I'll have alot larger problems than my battery cable shorting out. > >So am I splitting hairs in worrying about a 35C difference in insulation and tinned copper wires? The welding cable is used internal to the fuselage, and attached to an RG batt, and it's not a seaplane, so I do not anticipate tons of battery wire internal corrosion. I'm going with Mil spec Tefzel for all FWF applications, however. Where the 10" of 2 AWG welding cable passes the firewall to connect to the starter solenoid, it will be wrapped in firesleeve clamped with SS firesleeve clamps. From there forward, it will be #2 Tefzel. What are your thoughts guys? The 90C welding cable is all cut, ring terms soldered on, shrink tubed, marked, adels clamped, pretty much permanently installed at this point. If it were you, (and you were a fan of using welding cable to begin with) would you yank it out? > >Art Treff >Rv-8 > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:34 AM PST US From: "Ross Mickey" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Colored toggles --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" I got mine (white, green, blue) from AC$. Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Bowen" > Anyone know where I can get colored rubber boots that fit the toggle > switches I've purchased from Bob? > > Thanks, > > - > Larry Bowen, RV-8 systems ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: crimpers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:14 AM 8/15/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ted Lemen" > >Bob, can you give me a list of the crimpers that you reccomend and there >prices? B&C offers the range of crimpers that address 95+ percent of all your wiring tasks. They can be seen at: http://www.bandc.biz Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 10715 Perry --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >Comments/Questions: What is a good alternator to use with the LR3? >Building an AeroCanard. IFR, EFIS etc. As far as I know, the LR3 series regulators have performed well with any alternator designed or modified to run with an external alternator. My personal favorites are the Nipondenso products found on many cars but these will require modification. I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Thanks! Bob . . . |---------------------------------------------------| | A lie can travel half way around the world while | | the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . | | -Mark Twain- | |---------------------------------------------------| ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery (Welding) cable feedback --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:30 AM 8/15/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur" > > >OBAM listers, > >Having installed my battery wires in my RV-8 I am now having "buyer's >remorse". I purchased 2AWG welding cable to wire the rear mounted battery >(and master contactor) to the firewall mounted starter solenoid, as well >as running a negative cable to the fast on tabs on the firewall. The >cable I purchased is the top of the line from McMaster Carr's catalog: >Vu-Tron UL Listed Cables- Jacket is chlorinated polyethylene with Class M >#34 AWG copper stranding. Cable resists solvents and is more resistant to >other factors than standard cable. Temperature range is -58 to +194 F. >MSHA (Mine Safety and Health Administration) approved. CSA certified. >Color is orange. >I just found out that there's a 'better' quality welding cable, that is >tinned copped (mine is not) and the insulation is rated to 125C, mine is >rated to 90C, 35C less. According to the chart in the cable specs, at a >wire temperature of 90C (195F), the 2AWG can handle a continuous load of >250 amps @600 volts in a 100' run. My run is only 40 feet, the volts are >only 12, and the max load is the starter for what, 30 seconds at a whack? Is your engine REALLY this hard to get started? > I'm also reasoning that at close to an ambient temp of 190F, my blood > is about to boil, so I'll have alot larger problems than my battery cable > shorting out. >So am I splitting hairs in worrying about a 35C difference in insulation >and tinned copper wires? The welding cable is used internal to the >fuselage, and attached to an RG batt, and it's not a seaplane, so I do not >anticipate tons of battery wire internal corrosion. I'm going with Mil >spec Tefzel for all FWF applications, however. Where the 10" of 2 AWG >welding cable passes the firewall to connect to the starter solenoid, it >will be wrapped in firesleeve clamped with SS firesleeve clamps. From >there forward, it will be #2 Tefzel. What are your thoughts guys? The 90C >welding cable is all cut, ring terms soldered on, shrink tubed, marked, >adels clamped, pretty much permanently installed at this point. If it >were you, (and you were a fan of using welding cable to begin with) would >you yank it out? I'd leave it alone. The idea that you're going to electrically challenge this wire to the point that it smokes is way down in the statistical mud for the list of demonstrated hazards to airplanes. If you've got an active fire, then the performance of this wire's insulation is a very small part of the problems you going to face . . . by the way, when it comes to wire-smoke and toxicity for byproducts thereof, there is not a single product out there about which one could craft a Marlboro-Man like commercial touting the smooth taste and pleasant sensation in the lungs. Those-who-are-paid-to-protect-me-from-myself will torture some rats to death and determine that burning insulation from wire-A is 100x as toxic as wire-B. Then, I look at all the demonstrated reasons people met their demise in airplanes and find their rules/recommendations on wire most unconvincing. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:15 AM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" Sorry to open this can of worms again. It is time to buy my panel instruments. I have waited until the last minute hoping that one of the lower cost EFIS panels get up to speed. I have the efis 1 blue mountain designed in as my primary flight display on the pilot side. On the right side I have the dynon designed in as a backup. I do not have any mechanical gyros as a backup. The plane is wired as a duel battery, duel alternator system. One avionics shop said that he would not fly with the blue mountain into hard IFR. I want to be able to do this. Does anyone have this system installed and could make some comments or recomendations? I have panel designs with it or without. I could go either way. Thanks Ron Raby Lancair ES ====================================================================== > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:57 PM PST US From: N823ms@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com Ron: Hi. Ed Silvanic here, Lancair ES N823MS. I have gone through this many times myself. Its frustrating! to say the least. Everyone wants something reliable and the best bang for the buck. I have followed BMA for a long time and have had some great educational conversations with Greg and Malcolm. My kit is a 96 fast build kit that I bought used, (very little was done), so my instrument panel is a little different from the one that is out there now. I took an actual size cut out of the BMA EFIS 1 found out that it eats up a lot of my panel. I say that in respect to the fact that I wanted to put standard steam gauges around it as backup, (very similar looking to the A300 Airbus I fly now), but it was going to require 2 1/4 gauges which where hard to find or costly. So I looked at there EFIS Lite. Wow now that made me feel right at home because now there was plenty of room for backup 3 1/8 gauges. Knowing that I will have a GNS-530/430, I did not need another rolling map. I am installing Electronic International engine gauges, so I did not have to duplicate them as well. So I called the new COO at the time, Mr. Malcolm Thompson and suggested that they duplicate the EFIS Lite unit to project a glass DG/HSI format. This would give you what we call a PFD ND combination. Well, they seemed to have listened, however, their EFIS Lite is around 9,000.00 plus now. Whether you go EFIS One/EFIS Lite, they still recommend some backup. So I began to look at others and finally decided to go with DYNON EFIS D-10. Yes, I have talked to them about making the same size unit as a glass DG/HSI. I should have mine soon. There are pro/cons about both, but for the money, I am going with the Dynon. Hope this helps, my EFIS 10 should be enroute. I am making a rough real size mock up of my panel; If you want some photos, let me know. Regards, Ed Silvanic Lancair ES N823MS P.S. I am now on with Yahoo ES club ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:16 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:44 PM 8/15/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" > >Sorry to open this can of worms again. > >It is time to buy my panel instruments. I have waited until the last minute >hoping that one of the lower cost EFIS panels get up to speed. I have the >efis 1 blue mountain designed in as my primary flight display on the pilot >side. On the right side I have the dynon designed in as a backup. I do not >have any mechanical gyros as a backup. The plane is wired as a duel battery, >duel alternator system. > >One avionics shop said that he would not fly with the blue mountain into >hard IFR. Did he explain why in stone-simple-ideas that were lucid and understandable on their own? >I want to be able to do this. Does anyone have this system installed and >could make some comments or recomendations? Let me echo his sentiments . . . sort of . . . but with explanation. I wouldn't venture into the clouds with a a glass panel system as the ONLY source of aviating data no matter who built it. Quoting from an article I did some years ago . . . Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no immediate hazard is created." The third: "Things needed for comfortable termination of flight require backup or special consideration to insure operation and availability" The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it or want some new feature, not because it damned near got you killed." Are you going to have a wing leveler? Is it GPS aided? Are you going to have two sources of power . . . EITHER one of which can run basic minimum equipment for duration of fuel aboard? People should be able to take advantage of the neat new products coming onto the market but NONE of them are failure-proof. The equipment we've flown for nearly a century is equally subject to failure. So assume that during any single flight, ANYTHING can decide not to function and plan for it. The EFIS systems we put in bizjets cover all the bases with mulitple screens, sensors, computers and reversionary operating modes to tolerate failures. Your task is really easier . . . you just need to decide what's needed to get you out of the clouds in reasonable comfort if the EFIS system is shut off and include that stuff into your system design. Then pick any brand system that tickles your fancy. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:49 PM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" Thanks Ed for responding. I would like to see your pictures. I have two autocad layouts of my panels. One of the designs, pretty much is the same as what you describe. I have the standard six pack with the dynon replacing the directional gyro in the middle. If it is the same or close I could plot it full scale for you to have. Can you open autocad? Ron Raby ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com > > Ron: > > Hi. Ed Silvanic here, Lancair ES N823MS. I have gone through this many > times myself. Its frustrating! to say the least. Everyone wants something > reliable and the best bang for the buck. I have followed BMA for a long time and > have had some great educational conversations with Greg and Malcolm. My kit is > a 96 fast build kit that I bought used, (very little was done), so my > instrument panel is a little different from the one that is out there now. I took an > actual size cut out of the BMA EFIS 1 found out that it eats up a lot of my > panel. I say that in respect to the fact that I wanted to put standard steam > gauges around it as backup, (very similar looking to the A300 Airbus I fly now), > but it was going to require 2 1/4 gauges which where hard to find or costly. > So I looked at there EFIS Lite. Wow now that made me feel right at home because > now there was plenty of room for backup 3 1/8 gauges. > > Knowing that I will have a GNS-530/430, I did not need another rolling > map. I am installing Electronic International engine gauges, so I did not > have to duplicate them as well. So I called the new COO at the time, Mr. Malcolm > Thompson and suggested that they duplicate the EFIS Lite unit to project a > glass DG/HSI format. This would give you what we call a PFD ND combination. Well, > they seemed to have listened, however, their EFIS Lite is around 9,000.00 > plus now. Whether you go EFIS One/EFIS Lite, they still recommend some backup. > > So I began to look at others and finally decided to go with DYNON EFIS > D-10. Yes, I have talked to them about making the same size unit as a glass > DG/HSI. I should have mine soon. There are pro/cons about both, but for the > money, I am going with the Dynon. > > Hope this helps, my EFIS 10 should be enroute. I am making a rough real size > mock up of my panel; If you want some photos, let me know. > > > Regards, > > Ed Silvanic > Lancair ES > N823MS > > P.S. > I am now on with Yahoo ES club > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:52 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 8/15/03 2:12:30 PM Central Daylight Time, N823ms@aol.com writes: > I took an > actual size cut out of the BMA EFIS 1 found out that it eats up a lot of my > panel. I say that in respect to the fact that I wanted to put standard steam > > gauges around it as backup, Good Afternoon Ed, Did you ever consider just adding a good reliable Turn And Bank? That would only take up one three and an eighth hole. Add to that any current production handheld GPS to give you altitude and you should have everything you need to keep your Lancair under control. In addition, the GPS will allow you to navigate. Keep It Simple still works! Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:10 PM PST US From: Van Caulart Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: ADF reversed sensing --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Van Caulart Your comments are correct Bob (long remembered or otherwise) re. the sensing in relation to top or bottom mounting of the loop antenna. I was at the radio shop and they said the same thing(I swear they monitor this list). It turns out that the culprit is the rcvr which was tagged servicable. we swapped out loop antennas first and the response was the same so we then put my original loop back on and swapped out another rcvr. Bingo. My "sevicable" rcvr was not. The radio shop is now on the hook to make it right since they said it was OK to go in the first place. One problem down and some ground loops to go. PeterVC At 07:56 AM 8/13/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Van Caulart > >I installed an ARC 300 ADF rcvr and indicator which were inspected and >taggged servicible. I was also supplied with a serviceable sense >antenna, the cables to the loop ant, and the harness/connectors to the >rcvr. My part was to hook up the connectors and install the indicator >and antennas. I only had to connect power, ground and the audio output. > >My problem is that the needle of the indicator points in reverse to the >station selected. I'm wondering if this couuld be a bad loop antenna or >somehow related to my ground loop problems ADF loop antennas were commonly installed on both upper and lower surfaces of the fuselage which forced a rotation select option in the harness . . . there was a pair of wires that needed to be reversed in the harness to set proper direction of rotation of indicator needle with respect to the loop. There's a second set of wires that would control direction of pointing. It's been a VERY long time since I poked through the operating principals of these radios, but I think location of the two antennas with respect to each other and the airplane might produce the anomaly you're observing. The should be covered in detail in the installation manual for the radio along with a chart of pin-connections that describe hookup unique to your installation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:35 PM PST US From: BAKEROCB@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: New FAA AC On Amateur Built Aircraft --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com << Good Evening OC, All I found at that address was the Federal Register notice. Is there an address where the proposed document can be accessed via the Internet? Happy Skies, Old Bob >> 8/15/2003 Hello Old Bob, Yes there is. Thanks to John Rourke I was able to find and download a copy at <> My phone calls to the number given in the Federal Register (202-267-8361) elicited the following: 1) Being passed on to several very unknowledgeable people. 2) Being told by each that "No, they didn't have a copy of the Federal Register, and, No they didn't know what it said, and, No they didn't know how to get a copy". 3) "No, the phone number in the Federal Register really was not Rodney Watson's phone number". 4) "Rodney Watson's real phone number is 202-267-9540". 5) "Randy is not in and one should call him on Monday to see if he can help me obtain a copy". That is when I said "Thank you" and tried the internet. I am very pleased at your interest and the general response of the group. I know that wading around in the bureacratic world is not the most fun in the world, but if we don't apply some pressure to these people they will stuff us all in their lower right hand desk drawer where we can't possibly bother anyone anywhere, and coincidentally accomplish anything either.** Almost as Old 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? **PS: Case in point. I am still in the middle of trying to sort this out, but it appears that the legal types at the FAA aircraft registration office in Oklahoma have decided that a "Bill of Sale" for a kit purchased six years ago is no longer adequate for registration purposes of the aircraft built from that kit even though the present AC 20-27E specifically says "kit Bill of Sale" is what is needed by them. AC 20-27E also says that AC Form 8050-2 Aircraft Bill of Sale MAY be used so now they have upped the ante to say that AC Form 8050-2 MUST be used. Their reasoning is that normal Bills of Sale for kits do not contain the sacred "words of transfer" that are used in the sale / transfer of unique legal entities that have titles such as real estate, automobiles, and aircraft. To my knowledge a collection of material called a kit, that may or may not ever become an aircraft of some form, is not a uniquely identifiable legal entity at the time it passes from the kit providers hands to the amateur builder. So "words of transfer" are not applicable nor required. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:00 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS From: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" I'd rather fly into hard IFR with two independent EFIS systems and dual bat/dual alt than the same pwr distribution system and mechanical gyros. I had $4000 worth of brand new, 14V electric, gyros (AH & DG) that failed right out of their respective boxes. I thought that eliminating the vac pump was a major benefit, but eliminating gyros is even more comforting. I wouldn't fly into hard IFR behind this manufacturer's attitude and directional gyros, period... I am however putting in a turn and slip as back up for my Dynon EFIS. Wayne Blackler IO-360 Long EZ Dynon on order Seattle, WA -----Original Message----- From: Ron Raby [mailto:ronr@advanceddesign.com] Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" Sorry to open this can of worms again. It is time to buy my panel instruments. I have waited until the last minute hoping that one of the lower cost EFIS panels get up to speed. I have the efis 1 blue mountain designed in as my primary flight display on the pilot side. On the right side I have the dynon designed in as a backup. I do not have any mechanical gyros as a backup. The plane is wired as a duel battery, duel alternator system. One avionics shop said that he would not fly with the blue mountain into hard IFR. I want to be able to do this. Does anyone have this system installed and could make some comments or recomendations? I have panel designs with it or without. I could go either way. Thanks Ron Raby Lancair ES ====================================================================== > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:55 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New FAA AC On Amateur Built Aircraft --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 8/15/03 3:53:07 PM Central Daylight Time, BAKEROCB@aol.com writes: > Yes there is. Thanks to John Rourke I was able to find and > download a copy at <> Good Evening OC, Found that and downloaded a copy. Now all I have to do is figure out what it says! Thanks. Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery (Welding) cable feedback From: John Schroeder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder Nope! The 90C welding cable is all cut, ring terms soldered on, shrink tubed, > marked, adels clamped, pretty much permanently installed at this point. > If it were you, (and you were a fan of using welding cable to begin with) > would you yank it out? > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:57 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" I have backups to my backups, and I'm not currently IFR rated. I have on order for delivery in about 3 weeks a Blue Mountain EFIS/one. I am installing a Proprietary Software AoA. I have or have on order 2-1/4" airspeed, altimeter, vertical velocity, and turn and bank. And I have a removable mount for my Garmin 196. I also am installing a removable hand-held radio as a backup. Both the 196 and the Icom handheld radio have their own batteries, and it just occurred to me that maybe the AoA could have. Finding room for everything in my RV-8A was certainly a challenge, especially considering the CPU of the EFIS/one is going right behind the panel on the right side and doesn't leave room for gauges over there. I am still trying to sort out the electrical system and haven't been able to get any response to my questions to this list or to Bob concerning Blue Mountain's requirement to either have the EFIS/one on a separate electrical system from the starter or to be turned off during startup. A local builder who works for Dynon suggested that the Dynon was the ideal backup for the EFIS/one. I think he was right. I have no backups for the engine gauges, other than a couple of warning lights. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 8/15/03 2:12:30 PM Central Daylight Time, N823ms@aol.com writes: > I took an > actual size cut out of the BMA EFIS 1 found out that it eats up a lot of my > panel. I say that in respect to the fact that I wanted to put standard steam > > gauges around it as backup, Good Afternoon Ed, Did you ever consider just adding a good reliable Turn And Bank? That would only take up one three and an eighth hole. Add to that any current production handheld GPS to give you altitude and you should have everything you need to keep your Lancair under control. In addition, the GPS will allow you to navigate. Keep It Simple still works! Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:57 PM PST US From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CozyGirrrl@aol.com In a message dated 8/15/2003 4:43:33 PM Central Daylight Time, terry@tcwatson.com writes: > I am > still trying to sort out the electrical system and haven't been able to get > any response to my questions to this list or to Bob concerning Blue > Mountain's requirement to either have the EFIS/one on a separate electrical > system from the starter or to be turned off during startup. Check with Greg on that one, I think Wayne Lanza of Composite Design makes a module that should take care of that, it is not on his web page but I saw it at Sun-n-fun. ...Chrissi ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:59 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" I still intend to sell Copper Clad Aluminum but I have seen little interest. I would hate to get stuck with the mile of this that I have to buy. Anyone interested? Details on my website. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net "I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." --Yogi Berra ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:32 PM PST US From: N823ms@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com Ron: I have the auto cad program from aeroelectric that I downloaded. If that works send me some pictures. I will send you some just as soon as I get it installed. I know old Bob is responding to my comments to you and I agree to keep things simple, but I still like my pleasure airplane to have some of the standardization that I have in my professional office. Regards, Ed Silvanic ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:54 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:07 PM 8/15/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > >I still intend to sell Copper Clad Aluminum but I have seen little >interest. I would hate to get stuck with the mile of this that I have to >buy. Anyone interested? Details on my website. Oh yeah, forgot about that stuff. Hey folks, I worked with some samples that Eric sent me about a year ago. Unlike the bare, coarse stranded aluminum that was such a disaster in the Piper's and for the first year of the C-177, this is DIFFERENT. Unless you look at end of the strands where the cutoff shows the aluminum core, you'd think you were looking at a copper cable. Individual strands are copper clad so that they SOLDER like copper. Obviously, the cladding has to be thin to maximize the weight savings advantage of aluminum. I'd be curious about the integrity of the copper in the interior of a crimped joint . . . but then, if the cladding is intact up to and for some distance into the joint, then it wouldn't matter if some aluminum were exposed. I'd have no qualms about installing terminals with soldering techniques. I think I recall that Premier I at Raytheon uses some aluminum wire . . . I suspect it's a similar product. I'll inquire and let you all know. It is not as flexible as welding cable or even 2AWG/22759 so it probably not very attractive for short runs. However . . . if you've got an airplane with rear mounted batteries, a canard-pusher with batteries up front, or a sea-plane with those gawd-awful long battery leads, this stuff might save you several pounds. Bob . . . >Regards, >Eric M. Jones >www.PerihelionDesign.com >113 Brentwood Drive >Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >Phone (508) 764-2072 >Email: emjones@charter.net > >"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school >like I did." > --Yogi Berra > > Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:03 PM PST US From: richard@riley.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: richard@riley.net At 03:11 PM 8/15/03 -0400, you wrote: >- Knowing that I will have a GNS-530/430, I did not need another rolling >map. I am installing Electronic International engine gauges, so I did not >have to duplicate them as well. So I called the new COO at the time, Mr. >Malcolm >Thompson and suggested that they duplicate the EFIS Lite unit to project a >glass DG/HSI format. This would give you what we call a PFD ND >combination. Well, >they seemed to have listened, however, their EFIS Lite is around 9,000.00 >plus now. Whether you go EFIS One/EFIS Lite, they still recommend some >backup. ????? The EFIS Lite is $3500 in it's original configuration, $4500 with HSI and moving map modes. If all you got was the HSI, it would be less than most any other HSI on the market, and WAY less than the Sandel. I have an EFIS 1 and will back it up with 2 1/4 steam guages (AI, ALT, ASI, VSI) only because I already have them and the ALT is one of those incredibly expensive military units. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:01 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:42 PM 8/15/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > >I have backups to my backups, and I'm not currently IFR rated. I have on >order for delivery in about 3 weeks a Blue Mountain EFIS/one. I am >installing a Proprietary Software AoA. I have or have on order 2-1/4" >airspeed, altimeter, vertical velocity, and turn and bank. And I have a >removable mount for my Garmin 196. I also am installing a removable >hand-held radio as a backup. Both the 196 and the Icom handheld radio have >their own batteries, and it just occurred to me that maybe the AoA could >have. Finding room for everything in my RV-8A was certainly a challenge, >especially considering the CPU of the EFIS/one is going right behind the >panel on the right side and doesn't leave room for gauges over there. I am >still trying to sort out the electrical system and haven't been able to get >any response to my questions to this list or to Bob concerning Blue >Mountain's requirement to either have the EFIS/one on a separate electrical >system from the starter or to be turned off during startup. I'm sorry, didn't know we had something hanging loose. That's easy. Treat it like any other system that can't live in real world of airplanes. Put in two batteries. Crank from main battery and run the e-bus from the aux battery. Run picky FADEC from aux battery bus, run Blue Mountain from the e-bus with alternate feed closed for pre-flight. Don't close the aux battery contactor until after the engine is started and don't open e-bus alternate feed until aux battery contactor is closed. Put new battery in aux battery slot every year, move old aux battery to main position. > A local builder >who works for Dynon suggested that the Dynon was the ideal backup for the >EFIS/one. I think he was right. > >I have no backups for the engine gauges, other than a couple of warning >lights. I've yet to see an airplane come spiraling out of the sky trailing black smoke because you don't know what the oil pressure is. Remember, we're talking the likelihood of multiple failures on one airplane during any three to four hour flight. If you've built a poor product and you're used to seeing problems every other flight, then I would agree that the risk of multiple failures could be pretty high. In over 1500 hours, I've never had a failure that caused the slightest discomfort for continuing that leg and launching on yet another leg after refueling . . . and that in an airplane that can't be a good as the one you're building. That's where the FMEA comes in. What do you do if the VM1000 goes blank? It's 99.999% likely that all the readings before blackout will be exactly the same as when you pull power back for descent to landing. The VM1000 does not need a backup for comfortable completion of the current flight. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New FAA AC On Amateur Built Aircraft --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > << Good Evening OC, All I found at that address was the Federal Register >notice. Is there an address where the proposed document can be accessed >via the >Internet? > Happy Skies, Old Bob >> I've put a copy up at: http://216.55.140.222/Reference_Docs/AC20-27F_DRAFT.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:50 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:56 PM 8/15/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > >In a message dated 8/15/03 2:12:30 PM Central Daylight Time, N823ms@aol.com >writes: > > > I took an > > actual size cut out of the BMA EFIS 1 found out that it eats up a lot > of my > > panel. I say that in respect to the fact that I wanted to put standard > steam > > > > gauges around it as backup, > >Good Afternoon Ed, > >Did you ever consider just adding a good reliable Turn And Bank? That would >only take up one three and an eighth hole. and can be as small as 2-1/4" . . . >Add to that any current production handheld GPS to give you altitude and you >should have everything you need to keep your Lancair under control. In >addition, the GPS will allow you to navigate. . . . or if you have a rate-based, GPS aided wing leveler it will do everything you might have done with eyeballs dancing over the gages after the EFIX goes black . . . and might even do it better leaving you to navigate. Given that we'd probably use such a device most of the time while in clouds anyhow, I'll suggest that the EFIS is backup for the wing-leveler and not the other way around . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:49 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 8/15/03 8:55:21 PM Central Daylight Time, bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes: > >Did you ever consider just adding a good reliable Turn And Bank? That > would > >only take up one three and an eighth hole. > > and can be as small as 2-1/4" . . . Good Evening Bob, That's true, but my experience with the two and a quarter size has been poor. I've had three of them fail in less than two thousand hours. I agree two thousand hours is lot of time, but I have had full size units last for the life of an airplane. I am sure no expert on instruments, but my local guru tells me that the new small instruments currently available just are not very good. The ones made for the military sell for upwards of five grand. Too rich for me. I have gone back to using new production three and one-eighth inch T&Bs. > > > >Add to that any current production handheld GPS to give you altitude and > you > >should have everything you need to keep your Lancair under control. In > >addition, the GPS will allow you to navigate. > > . . . or if you have a rate-based, GPS aided wing leveler it will > do everything you might have done with eyeballs dancing > over the gages after the EFIX goes black . . . and might > even do it better leaving you to navigate. Given that we'd > probably use such a device most of the time while in clouds > anyhow, I'll suggest that the EFIS is backup for the wing-leveler > and not the other way around . . . > > Bob . . . > Right on. I think something like Jim Younkin's unit is the way to go! Fabulous piece of equipment. Thank goodness for guys like Jim catering to the OBAM aircraft. Between you and Jim, we've got it made. Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:50 PM PST US From: "Dave Grosvenor" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery voltage on start --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Grosvenor" Assuming you have a good battery, how much can you expect the battery voltage to drop when you hit the starter (50 - 60Amps) for a few seconds?