---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/19/03: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:37 AM - From SWPC list (drew.schumann@us.army.mil) 2. 05:38 AM - Re: From SWPC list (Ron Raby) 3. 05:51 AM - Connectors (Jim Butcher) 4. 06:04 AM - Re: Mag mystery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:27 AM - Re: LV Warning project. Bill of Materials Error (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:47 AM - DO-178B (Gary Casey) 7. 07:21 AM - Re: DO-178B (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 07:34 AM - What kind of connector on LSE-EI system? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 07:45 AM - Re: Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 08:44 AM - Re: grounding (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 09:29 AM - Re: What kind of connector on LSE-EI system? <5.0.0.25.2.20030814085912.011ec610@pop.central.cox.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20030815112634.012c12b8@pop.central.cox.net> (Dan Checkoway) 12. 10:38 AM - Re: What kind of connector on LSE-EI system? <5.0.0.25.2.20030814085912.011ec610@pop.central.cox.net> (Jeff Point) 13. 10:49 AM - Re: What kind of connector on LSE-EI system? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 11:16 AM - Metcal (RSwanson) 15. 11:53 AM - Re: Details () 16. 11:56 AM - Relay Question (F1Rocket@comcast.net) 17. 12:12 PM - Re: What kind of connector on LSE-EI system? (Dan Checkoway) 18. 05:19 PM - Re: Audio panel, of sorts... (Larry Bowen) 19. 06:36 PM - Re: soldering iron wattage (John Schroeder) 20. 06:59 PM - Re: Bureaucratic Fungus (John Schroeder) 21. 07:00 PM - Wiring Harness Troubles (auto pilot) (Rick Fogerson) 22. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: Details (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 07:41 PM - Re: Wiring Harness Troubles (auto pilot) (KITFOXZ@aol.com) 24. 07:45 PM - Re: Wiring Harness Troubles (auto pilot) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 07:46 PM - Re: Audio panel, of sorts... (Stanley Blanton) 26. 08:23 PM - Re: Wiring Harness Troubles (auto pilot) (Charlie & Tupper England) 27. 09:01 PM - Re: Wiring Harness Troubles (auto pilot) (Larry Bowen) 28. 09:46 PM - V-8 Airplane power. (Dean Psiropoulos) 29. 09:50 PM - V-8 Airplane power (Dean Psiropoulos) 30. 10:11 PM - Intercom as alarm annunciator (Rob W M Shipley) 31. 11:42 PM - Re: V-8 Airplane power. (BTomm) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:40 AM PST US From: drew.schumann@us.army.mil Subject: AeroElectric-List: From SWPC list --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drew.schumann@us.army.mil Sent Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:15 am To Rod Smith , Short Wing Piper Maillist Cc Bcc Subject SWPC: Electrical failure Saturday night I was practicing my night landings, all flap settings, simulated engine out at different locations in the pattern. I had the Provo airport to myself. I then broke off to fly over the city and climbed up to 8000 for a better view. I then headed back towards the airport and decided to try a simulated engine out to check my skills for a 3500 ft decent to land. I made a radio call telling my position and that I was simulating a engine out. I then turned on my landing light and pulled back on the throttle and started my decent adjusting my glide and watching the airport runway lights then at about 6000 ft I lost all my electrical power. It took me a few seconds to asses what happened then I tried my breakers but no luck there. I then visually checked for other traffic in the area and continued with my decent for landing. I wanted to reach back for my hand held but you know I left it back in the truck. Never again will that happen, I made a smooth landing without the use of a landing light and used my large flash light for a taxi light hanging it out my window. I fixed the problem the next day, can YOU figure out what happened? Blaine PA-22-135 2569A __________________________________ http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:39 AM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: From SWPC list --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" loose main ground cable. Ron Raby ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: From SWPC list > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drew.schumann@us.army.mil > > Sent Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:15 am > To Rod Smith , Short Wing Piper Maillist > Cc > Bcc > Subject SWPC: Electrical failure > > > Saturday night I was practicing my night landings, all > flap settings, simulated engine out at different > locations in the pattern. I had the Provo airport to > myself. I then broke off to fly over the city and > climbed up to 8000 for a better view. I then headed > back towards the airport and decided to try a > simulated engine out to check my skills for a 3500 ft > decent to land. I made a radio call telling my > position and that I was simulating a engine out. I > then turned on my landing light and pulled back on the > throttle and started my decent adjusting my glide and > watching the airport runway lights then at about 6000 > ft I lost all my electrical power. It took me a few > seconds to asses what happened then I tried my > breakers but no luck there. I then visually checked > for other traffic in the area and continued with my > decent for landing. > I wanted to reach back for my hand held but you know I > left it back in the truck. Never again will that > happen, I made a smooth landing without the use of a > landing light and used my large flash light for a taxi > light hanging it out my window. > I fixed the problem the next day, can YOU figure out > what happened? > > Blaine > PA-22-135 > 2569A > > > __________________________________ > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:59 AM PST US From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" Bob, In an earlier post you suggested the use of AMP CPC Series I connectors. You suggested low cost tooling is available. I've found the connectors but have not found low cost tooling. Suggestions? Also, looks like these are rated at 13A max. I have a few circuits that are greater - pitot heat, main bus feed etc. Is it better to use the proper size wire and split to multiple contacts or use 2 smaller wires? Lastly, it should be no problem to use LED's for announciator lights such as low volts off the B&C regulator, correct? Just use an appropriate LED and current limiting resister? Thanks Jim Butcher Europa Builder A185 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mag mystery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:12 PM 8/18/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > >Posting for a friend with mag problems. He has one mag and one >lightspeed EI on an O-360A1A with a key switch. Things were running >fine until recently. Any ideas on the solution or efficent ways to >diagnose? > >- >Larry Bowen >Larry@BowenAero.com >http://BowenAero.com >2003 - The year of flight! > > >"My left mag key position kills the engine. I don't know if I have a bad >switch, bad mag or maybe a broken wire... " We're a tad shy on data. I presume he's not getting ignition when in the left-only position on switch. Is this the mag or EI system? Since his switch works to kill a system by grounding, a broken wire (most likely fault) would let the system keep running in left-only position. I'd guess that which ever system is on the left side has gone on vacation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LV Warning project. Bill of Materials Error --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >Comments/Questions: Bob, > >In your drawing 9021-620 for the low voltage warning circuit,item R104 >shows a4.7K resistor. The Parts List says this is a 2.49K resistor. Which >is correct? The schematic and assy photos are correct. R104 is 4.7k. I've fixed the document. Thanks for the heads-up . . . You can download the corrected document at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:49 AM PST US From: "Gary Casey" Subject: AeroElectric-List: DO-178B --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" I'm looking for someone familiar with the documentation requirements of DO-178B to help finish up a project. If there is anyone out there that could help on a contract basis, please contact me off line. Thanks. Gary Casey glcasey@adelphia.net ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DO-178B --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:40 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" > >I'm looking for someone familiar with the documentation requirements of >DO-178B to help finish up a project. If there is anyone out there that >could help on a contract basis, please contact me off line. Thanks. > >Gary Casey >glcasey@adelphia.net My condolences sir . . . if you didn't look at the morass of bureaucratic foo-foo that is the implementation of DO-178 before you launched your project, you're in for a rude awakening. DO-178 is the SINGLE greatest impediment to the advancement of aviation electronics through the use of microprocessors. I am still designing circuits for customers using dozens of discrete components as opposed to a single, $2 processor because the development costs of perhaps a few thousand dollars are dwarfed by the documentation costs running into tens of thousands. Two very innovative new products for airplanes were nearly scuttled recently not because they didn't work well, cost too much or wouldn't last . . . on the contrary, these products stood head-n-shoulders above other options in all respects. DO-178 expenses turned out to be 3 to 10 times what was expected. Just as major costs to acquire products advertised on TV carries the burden of those smiling faces who sold you the product, so it is with processor based products in aircraft. If it's a $high$ product like an all-in-one gps/comm, the gig doesn't seem so bad. But loading the same bureaucratic overhead on a $50 gee-whiz leaves most starry-eyed entrepreneurs with the glassy-eyed stare. Check with your local ACO and ask if they're aware of any software DER's in your area that are qualified to shepherd this hoard of cats through all the hoops ahead. Good luck. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:43 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: What kind of connector on LSE-EI system? <5.0.0.25.2.20030814085912.011ec610@pop.central.cox.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20030815112634.012c12b8@pop.central.cox.net> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Need some assistance from anyone having an LSE-EI system in hand. Have a builder in TX who reports that the bundle going through the firewall is terminated in a MALE connector. He also reports that this is a 9-pin connector. I've been advised by others on the List that it's a 15-pin connector. I'm getting ready to ship some LSE-EI upgrade kits to folks who asked for them and it would be really nice if I could ship them the right parts. Thanks! Bob . . . At 01:57 AM 8/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Bob, >Your 10 slot fuse block is nicely installed under the aft cockpit seat of >the Bucker. It is mounted on a stiffened .040 2024 T-3 pan, located under >the seat, out of the rain, but accessable to anybody with a small step >ladder. In fact, one could change fuses in flight, if they don't mind not >seeing what they are doing. The only drawback is the need to be careful of >the seat belts, and not drop them on the belly of the airplane, but this >caution should always apply... You could fabricate a cover. Some builders have used threaded spacers about an inch long as "nuts" to secure the fuseblock to its mounting surface. If mounting screws come up from below and extend less than 1/2" into spacer, then the other end of spacers provide mounting holes for a cover. >I did some checking on the LSE ignition system. It sounds like we replace >the soldered male d-sub connector with a crimped on version, with removable >pins on the end that goes through the firewall, and into the female >receptacle on the hall effect sensor, which is located on the right magneto >mounting pad. Hmmm . . . another builder suggested that we were replacing a female connector. Appreciate the info . . . > Good news, I ordered the MALE pin tool, and guessed correctly >that the plug is male. This must mean that the correct tool was ordered. There's only one tool for both male and female dsub pins. >Bad news, the plug only has nine pins, not fifteen. Do you have the nine >pin d sub connector in stock? If so, I'd like to purchase one from you. It >is also very possible that I am talking about the wrong plug. Please >advise.... Let me post this to the AeroElectric List and get feeback from others who have this system in hand . . . I can provide any connectors you need. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:55 AM 8/19/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" > >Bob, >In an earlier post you suggested the use of AMP CPC Series I >connectors. You suggested low cost tooling is available. I've found the >connectors but have not found low cost tooling. Suggestions? These use either the sheet metal pins which can be applied with B&C's BCT-1 tool or the same pins as a d-sub connector which are installed with the RCT-3 tool. Also, looks like these are rated at 13A max. I have a few circuits that are greater - pitot heat, main bus feed etc. Is it better to use the proper size wire and split to multiple contacts or use 2 smaller wires? Why would you want to run so much current through a connector? What alternator is fitted to your project that supports loads like pitot heat? You CAN parallel multiple pins in a connector by leaving generous pigtails on at least one side before joining the wires. (1) ---------18AWG------------- \ *----------- 12AWG ------- / (2) ---------18AWG------------- Make the 18AWG segments at least 1' long on one side before dropping into a butt-splice. Wouldn't hurt to do this on both sides of a high current pathway . . . >Lastly, it should be no problem to use LED's for announciator lights such >as low volts off the B&C regulator, correct? Just use an appropriate LED >and current limiting resister? See http://216.55.140.222/temp/LV_Led.jpg I know the temptation is strong to make future maintenance more "convenient" with the insertion of connectors in major bundles. If it were my airplane, maintenance would be eased with coiled-slack in bundles with the absolute minimum number of joints . . . especially those added by connectors. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: grounding --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:48 PM 8/19/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by >Joe Coser (coserj@mchsi.com) on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 at 07:48:18 > >Tuesday, August 19, 2003 > >Joe Coser > >, >Email: coserj@mchsi.com >Comments/Questions: Great site. >I have a question: > You talk about a single ground point location.. does this mean that > on a metal aircraft that you would run a ground wire from the device > back to the single ground location? >Thank You >Joe Coser building a SONEX I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Items remote from the cockpit that are not strong potential antagonists and/or victims can be grounded locally. These include position lights, strobe supplies, landing and taxi lights, and pitot heat. I'd take everything else, including battery (-) lead to the fat brass bolt and ground bus on the firewall. Thanks! Bob . . . |---------------------------------------------------| | A lie can travel half way around the world while | | the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . | | -Mark Twain- | |---------------------------------------------------| ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:40 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What kind of connector on LSE-EI system? <5.0.0.25.2.20030814085912.011ec610@pop.central.cox.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20030815112634.012c12b8@pop.central.cox.net> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Need some assistance from anyone having an LSE-EI system in hand. > Have a builder in TX who reports that the bundle going through the > firewall is terminated in a MALE connector. He also reports that > this is a 9-pin connector. I've been advised by others on the List > that it's a 15-pin connector. > > I'm getting ready to ship some LSE-EI upgrade kits to folks who asked for > them and it would be really nice if I could ship them the right parts. On my LSE Plasma II system, I used Mouser part #156-1415: http://checkoway.com/url/?s=b4d5cb28 It's a 15-pin female connector, and that particular part is made by DGS (picked it over AMP because it was cheaper). The confusion over 9-pin vs. 15-pin may be because the Hall Effect sensor (which I do not have) does take a 9-pin connector, I believe. I looked at the LSE web site for online schematics but didn't see any. Let me know if you want me to scan the paper manual schematic for you. Happy to help you out in any way I can, it's the least I can do for all the help you've given me! )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:16 AM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What kind of connector on LSE-EI system? <5.0.0.25.2.20030814085912.011ec610@pop.central.cox.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20030815112634.012c12b8@pop.central.cox.net> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jeff Point I have the LSE Plasma II with the flywheel mounted sensor. The wire bundle from the sensor terminates in a 15 pin female D-sub connector. The other end is hard wired onto the circuit board, and does not use D-subs like the magneto-hole mounted sensor. Jeff Point Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >Need some assistance from anyone having an LSE-EI system in hand. >Have a builder in TX who reports that the bundle going through the >firewall is terminated in a MALE connector. He also reports that >this is a 9-pin connector. I've been advised by others on the List >that it's a 15-pin connector. > >I'm getting ready to ship some LSE-EI upgrade kits to folks who asked for >them and it would be really nice if I could ship them the right parts. > >Thanks! > > Bob . . . > > >At 01:57 AM 8/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > >>Bob, >>Your 10 slot fuse block is nicely installed under the aft cockpit seat of >>the Bucker. It is mounted on a stiffened .040 2024 T-3 pan, located under >>the seat, out of the rain, but accessable to anybody with a small step >>ladder. In fact, one could change fuses in flight, if they don't mind not >>seeing what they are doing. The only drawback is the need to be careful of >>the seat belts, and not drop them on the belly of the airplane, but this >>caution should always apply... >> >> > > You could fabricate a cover. Some builders have used threaded spacers > about an inch long as "nuts" to secure the fuseblock to its mounting > surface. If mounting screws come up from below and extend less than > 1/2" into spacer, then the other end of spacers provide mounting holes > for a cover. > > > >>I did some checking on the LSE ignition system. It sounds like we replace >>the soldered male d-sub connector with a crimped on version, with removable >>pins on the end that goes through the firewall, and into the female >>receptacle on the hall effect sensor, which is located on the right magneto >>mounting pad. >> >> > > Hmmm . . . another builder suggested that we were replacing > a female connector. Appreciate the info . . . > > > >> Good news, I ordered the MALE pin tool, and guessed correctly >>that the plug is male. This must mean that the correct tool was ordered. >> >> > > There's only one tool for both male and female dsub pins. > > > >>Bad news, the plug only has nine pins, not fifteen. Do you have the nine >>pin d sub connector in stock? If so, I'd like to purchase one from you. It >>is also very possible that I am talking about the wrong plug. Please >>advise.... >> >> > > > Let me post this to the AeroElectric List and get feeback > from others who have this system in hand . . . I can > provide any connectors you need. > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:52 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What kind of connector on LSE-EI system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:24 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > > Need some assistance from anyone having an LSE-EI system in hand. > > Have a builder in TX who reports that the bundle going through the > > firewall is terminated in a MALE connector. He also reports that > > this is a 9-pin connector. I've been advised by others on the List > > that it's a 15-pin connector. > > > > I'm getting ready to ship some LSE-EI upgrade kits to folks who asked for > > them and it would be really nice if I could ship them the right parts. > >On my LSE Plasma II system, I used Mouser part #156-1415: >http://checkoway.com/url/?s=b4d5cb28 It's a 15-pin female connector, and >that particular part is made by DGS (picked it over AMP because it was >cheaper). > >The confusion over 9-pin vs. 15-pin may be because the Hall Effect sensor >(which I do not have) does take a 9-pin connector, I believe. > >I looked at the LSE web site for online schematics but didn't see any. Let >me know if you want me to scan the paper manual schematic for you. Happy to >help you out in any way I can, it's the least I can do for all the help >you've given me! That would be most useful data to have in my files. I'd appreciate it. Sooooo . . . if one plans to put the brain box on the other side of the firewall -AND- one has the magneto-drive trigger option, there are perhaps TWO d-sub connectors to remove and replace? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:52 AM PST US From: "RSwanson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Metcal --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RSwanson" Bob, Could you enlighted the Metcal ignorant among us with some recommendations for a mid priced unit. I see a new one that's called a STSS-002E. Would that be acceptable for our needs? R ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:25 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Details --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Please see the attached file for details. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:48 AM PST US From: F1Rocket@comcast.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Relay Question I'm trying my best to play an electrical engineer, but I'm not very good at it. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net I have a relay with both a positive and negative trigger connection on it. I assume that when power is applied to the relay, then the NC and C terminals are energized. After the trigger is energized with a momentary switch, the NO and C terminals are energized. Am I correct so far? If I energize the trigger a second time, does it switch back to the NC and C terminals......or......does it do nothing. What I'm trying to accomplish is to have a relay initially startup with one set of terminals energized and switch to and remain on the other set of terminals regardless of how many times the trigger is hit. Help. Randy F1Rocket ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:14 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What kind of connector on LSE-EI system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > That would be most useful data to have in my files. I'd > appreciate it. Will do. I'll email you the files off-list. > Sooooo . . . if one plans to put the brain box on the other side > of the firewall -AND- one has the magneto-drive trigger option, > there are perhaps TWO d-sub connectors to remove and replace? I don't think you'd need to remove the mag-drive D-9 connector itself, just reconnect its wires to the 15-pin connector. The reason being, the D-9 connector to the mag-drive doesn't need to pass through any holes. do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:12 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Audio panel, of sorts... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Thanks Bob. How would I determine the size for the capacitor? - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com 2003 - The year of flight! > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls@cox.net] > > > >I have 3 or 4 audio signals I need to capture somehow without a > >traditional audio panel. For example, nav radio, AOA, traffic > >detector, etc. I also have an ol' 4-place NAT intercom. > I'm wondering > >if I can run the audio out from these various devices to the > otherwise > >unused MIC pins on the intercom. As an example, passenger 3 will > >actually be AOA annunciation. Is there any reason why this wouldn't > >work? > > This might work. You want to use a capacitor to couple audio to > these inputs to keep the microphone DC power on these pins from > feeding back into or being loaded by the audio sources. Headset > audio levels are in the same ballpark as microphone levels so > I'd say the odds are in your favor. > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: soldering iron wattage From: John Schroeder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder I followed Bob's advice and bid on a Metcal unit on ebay. He suggested buying the tips and wand new, which I did and it is one whale of a soldering machine. didn't know how much of a hazard I was with the low wattage irons, or the big Weller guns, that I had used in the past. That big tip is really awesome. Highly reommend going for ebay. John > I've purchased 110v irons at Radio Shack for under $10.00 > when I need something quick in the field. The irons on > my workbench retail for $400+ but I get them off Ebay for a whole > lot less. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2551056976&category=1504 > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bureaucratic Fungus From: John Schroeder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder OC - I loved it! Especially the last part! Do not archive. BTW, thanks ever so much for providing the solid research and opinion on the regs. John ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:07 PM PST US From: "Rick Fogerson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Harness Troubles (auto pilot) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" Hi Bob and listers, I am having a tough time soldering wires to 9 and 15 pin connectors that connect an autopilot servo (located in the wing to the controller in the panel. I'm using Archer 60/40 (.062) standard rosin core solder, 22 AWG wire, and a small soldering iron I bought from B&C. I finding it very challenging to position the wire, iron, and solder to the solder cup of the connector for the time required to melt the solder. I have melted the plastic body of the connector, gotten globs of solder shorting adjacent pins, and pushed one pin down into the connector body. A real mess! Questions: 1) Is there a technique for doing this that you could explain or should I get different connectors, solder, or iron? 2) Also, the plastic parts for holding the connector and wire are about 1 1/4 inches long but I only have about 3/4 of an inch space. Are there more compact holders? Thanks for any help, Rick Fogerson RV-3 electrical Boise, ID ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Details --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:50 AM 8/19/2003 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >Please see the attached file for details. The Matronics list server doesn't pass along attachments of any kind to avoid overload and to avoid propagating virii . . . can you post your attachment to a public access server (your ISP usually provides 5-10 Megabytes of disk space for this kind of activity)? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:38 PM PST US From: KITFOXZ@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Harness Troubles (auto pilot) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com In a message dated 8/19/2003 10:00:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, rickf@cableone.net writes: Hi Bob and listers, I am having a tough time soldering wires to 9 and 15 pin connectors that connect an autopilot servo (located in the wing to the controller in the panel. I'm using Archer 60/40 (.062) standard rosin core solder, 22 AWG wire, and a small soldering iron I bought from B&C. I finding it very challenging to position the wire, iron, and solder to the solder cup of the connector for the time required to melt the solder. I have melted the plastic body of the connector, gotten globs of solder shorting adjacent pins, and pushed one pin down into the connector body. A real mess! Questions: 1) Is there a technique for doing this that you could explain or should I get different connectors, solder, or iron? 2) Also, the plastic parts for holding the connector and wire are about 1 1/4 inches long but I only have about 3/4 of an inch space. Are there more compact holders? Thanks for any help, Rick Fogerson RV-3 electrical Boise, ID Hello Rick, If you are visually impaired at distances less than two feet from your nose like most of us over 45, you need to work under a lighted magnifier. An iron with a tip small enough that it will fit inside the solder cups of the plug will be a help too. Be sure everything is clean and tarnish free. A pencil eraser works good to burnish the oxidation off a part to be soldered. Flush with alcohol. A little liquid flux applied to the solder cup is a big help to get the solder flowing before the heat builds up too much. Keep your iron clean and tinned. Tin the wires first and cut to length after the insulation shrinks back a bit from the tinning step. I have had good luck filling the cups about 1/2 way with solder first. If you are getting the pins so hot that you are melting the plugs' insulation and causing the pins to sink in, I bet you need to take a good look at cleanliness of all parts and be sure to have a good iron tip that is clean and tinned properly. Good luck! John P. Marzluf Columbus, Ohio Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage) ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Harness Troubles (auto pilot) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:59 PM 8/19/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" > >Hi Bob and listers, >I am having a tough time soldering wires to 9 and 15 pin connectors that >connect an autopilot servo (located in the wing to the controller in the >panel. I'm using Archer 60/40 (.062) standard rosin core solder, 22 AWG >wire, and a small soldering iron I bought from B&C. > >I finding it very challenging to position the wire, iron, and solder to >the solder cup of the connector for the time required to melt the >solder. I have melted the plastic body of the connector, gotten globs of >solder shorting adjacent pins, and pushed one pin down into the connector >body. A real mess! > >Questions: > >1) Is there a technique for doing this that you could explain or should I >get different connectors, solder, or iron? Here's a comic book I did on solder d-sub assembly. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/dsubs/d_solder.html Sounds like your space is tight and awkward. Have you considered crimp on style connectors? >2) Also, the plastic parts for holding the connector and wire are about 1 >1/4 inches long but I only have about 3/4 of an inch space. Are there more >compact holders? I presume you're talking about the backshell. I'm not aware of any especially short ones. You could consider the Shoo-Goo approach to wire support illustrated in http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html This technique works with either crimp or soldered pin connectors. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:15 PM PST US From: "Stanley Blanton" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Audio panel, of sorts... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stanley Blanton" Bob, How would multiple warning tones into the audio mixer on your web site best be handled? Stan Blanton - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com 2003 - The year of flight! > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls@cox.net] > > > >I have 3 or 4 audio signals I need to capture somehow without a > >traditional audio panel. For example, nav radio, AOA, traffic > >detector, etc. I also have an ol' 4-place NAT intercom. > I'm wondering > >if I can run the audio out from these various devices to the > otherwise > >unused MIC pins on the intercom. As an example, passenger 3 will > >actually be AOA annunciation. Is there any reason why this wouldn't > >work? > > This might work. You want to use a capacitor to couple audio to > these inputs to keep the microphone DC power on these pins from > feeding back into or being loaded by the audio sources. Headset > audio levels are in the same ballpark as microphone levels so > I'd say the odds are in your favor. > > Bob . . . advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:44 PM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Harness Troubles (auto pilot) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Rick Fogerson wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" > >Hi Bob and listers, >I am having a tough time soldering wires to 9 and 15 pin connectors that connect an autopilot servo (located in the wing to the controller in the panel. I'm using Archer 60/40 (.062) standard rosin core solder, 22 AWG wire, and a small soldering iron I bought from B&C. > >I finding it very challenging to position the wire, iron, and solder to the solder cup of the connector for the time required to melt the solder. I have melted the plastic body of the connector, gotten globs of solder shorting adjacent pins, and pushed one pin down into the connector body. A real mess! > >Questions: > >1) Is there a technique for doing this that you could explain or should I get different connectors, solder, or iron? > > >2) Also, the plastic parts for holding the connector and wire are about 1 1/4 inches long but I only have about 3/4 of an inch space. Are there more compact holders? > >Thanks for any help, >Rick Fogerson >RV-3 electrical >Boise, ID > The best advice is to practice on some scraps first. Be creative & use a couple of 6" pieces of wire lying on your work bench. Think of ways to make the stripped ends overlap each other & not move while you touch them both with your iron. How about a small pair of vise grips holding one wire several inches from the stripped end. maybe another pair of regular pliers holding the other wire, with a rubber band around the handle to transform them into a clamp? The key is to hold both items to be soldered so that they don't move when you apply the iron & solder. Use a damp kitchen sponge or cotton cloth to clean the iron's tip (wipe it quickly on the damp sponge), then lightly 'tin' the tip with solder; just enough to give you a nice shiny tip. This will give you a much more efficient heat transfer. With the freshly tinned tip, apply the tip to the joint to be soldered. Try to touch both wires if you can. After a couple of seconds, gently touch the solder to the joint (NOT the iron). When the joint is hot enough, the solder will flow into the joint smoothly. For small wires, you shouldn't need to heat the joint more than a few seconds. Practice doing this until you can do it reliably, then go back to the connectors. You can be creative in stabilizing the wires coming out of the connector by using something like RTV as a potting compound. Try a Google search for some photo tutorials on soldering. Charlie ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:14 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Harness Troubles (auto pilot) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" I've been thrilled with the consistant quality of the crimp pins, versus the hassle of soldering the tiny d-subs. I got all the supplies and tools from Bob's website. - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com 2003 - The year of flight! > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Fogerson [mailto:rickf@cableone.net] > > Hi Bob and listers, > I am having a tough time soldering wires to 9 and 15 pin > connectors that connect an autopilot servo (located in the > wing to the controller in the panel. I'm using Archer 60/40 > (.062) standard rosin core solder, 22 AWG wire, and a small > soldering iron I bought from B&C. > > I finding it very challenging to position the wire, iron, and > solder to the solder cup of the connector for the time > required to melt the solder. I have melted the plastic body > of the connector, gotten globs of solder shorting adjacent > pins, and pushed one pin down into the connector body. A real mess! ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:48 PM PST US From: "Dean Psiropoulos" Subject: AeroElectric-List: V-8 Airplane power. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dean Psiropoulos" Interesting that this should come up at this point in time. I'm building an RV-6A and received a solicitation from an outfit that is supposedly going to be offering firewall forward V-8 kits for RVs (albeit at rather high prices). Personally I have some reservations as to why I think this isn't such a great idea and I'm including my response to the solicitor. If you want a REALLY STRONG PSRU, then I think the Fred Geshwender designed unit for V-8 automotive engines is THE one. It uses a HiVo silent chain like the one driving the camshaft in a pushrod V-8 and is very stout. Fred sold the rights to build this unit to a Wisconsin company I believe, you'll need to get in contact with EAA, to find out who the new owner is. Speaking of engines, I'm looking for a good source for one of the new Superior o-360 lycoming work-a-likes. I have talked with Bart Lalond at Aerosport power and was VERY impressed. That was when I lived in Oregon and I now live in Florida so I'm wondering if a shop with Aerosport's reputation can be found in the lower 48. Anyone have suggestions? Thanks. Now...the V-8 vendor for RVs is as follows: www.predatoraviation.com My response to predator aviation is as follows: Interesting Chris but I've been down this road a long time ago and: Decided against the alternative engine for many reasons. Most converted auto engines had some problems which I think were partly due to people trying to save weight by leaving off important things like the harmonic balancer, etc. Also airframes are much lighter and have different resonant frequencies than 2 ton steel cars. That results in vibration in things like alternator brackets and causes them to break (even 1/8 thick steel brackets). I commend you on doing a firewall forward package, that makes an alternate engine setup MUCH more appealing. One of the reasons I chose a Lycoming was because Van's has a firewall forward kit, cowl and motor mount available and I didn't want to spend any more time trying to make those things on my own. Then there was always getting the thing to behave once you got everything installed. Invariably I would hear of many more hours of fiddling with the installation to get it to work satisfactorily. Your setup has two major problems that I see. One is weight and the other is cost. One of the biggest reasons I wanted to do an auto engine setup was because auto engines are extremely cheap (I hated the thought of spending 20 grand on 60 year old engine technology that was basically a Volkswagen on steroids) even with a gearbox. Also auto technology is WAY WAY ahead of 60 year old Lycoming technology and overhauls are simple and cheap. I had second thoughts about doing the Lycoming a couple years ago when I was at the Northwest EAA fly-inn and saw the Subaru engine firewall forward packages being offered by NSI. It looked and sounded great and I talked to a fellow who'd been flying an RV-6 on one for a couple years and had good luck with it. Alas, the kit was 25 grand!!! I could get new Lycoming from Van's for around 20 so why spend more time and effort with something that was relatively unproven? I think that, for half of the people who by a Van's kit, they do it because it is the most bang for the buck and they don't have lots of money to spend. So.asking more money than a Van's Lycoming for your setup is shooting yourself in the foot. If you want lots of customers I would say that you'd have to drop the price down to around 15 grand. Why so low? Because an aircraft engine shop in Kamloops BC Canada (by the name of Aerosport power) will sell you a good overhauled Lycoming 0-320 for around 17 grand (and Bart is unmatched for customer service, I can't say enough good things about the guy). An RV will scoot along just fine on 160 hp, most of us who buy new from Van's get the 0-360 because we're spending a ton of money anyway and it only costs a couple thousand more to get the bigger motor). And now that Bart (and several others) are selling assembled Superior XP360s for about a grand less than a new Lycoming from Van's things are even better. Annnnnnd.. I think the Eggenfellner Subaru setup also proves this point by having sold so many kits (at a low price of 14 grand) as opposed to the NSI package (which I have not heard of that many sold at a relatively high price of 25 grand). Another problem you'll likely have (with the Van's two place aircraft) is that your engine installation is likely to weigh 40% more than a 4 Cylinder Lycoming. I know there are crazies out there who'll do anything and lots of folks love to put more hp on but I think that installation is going to make things just too nose heavy and will reduce useful load and increase stall speed. But...you may be able to sell such a thing to RV-10 builders, maybe even to me when I finish my RV-6 and start on a -10. I like the idea of the V-8 engine sound and prestige and ease of maintenance and familiarity, but, a Lycoming 0-540 flat 6 is also very smooth and also sounds like a V-8 with a cam when idling on the ground (and will also likely be purchasable for around the same money as your less expensive kit). Kudos for going to so much trouble, the 2 place RVs may be the wrong target for mass sales but the 4 place aircraft from ALL kit manufacturers should be good fodder for you. Go for it. Regards, Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A #24907 finish kit ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:17 PM PST US From: "Dean Psiropoulos" Subject: AeroElectric-List: V-8 Airplane power --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dean Psiropoulos" Sorry guys, I wanted to post that email to the engines list but have had Bob's excellent advice on my mind lately. If anyone on this list has a suggestion feel free to email me. Thanks. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A 24907 Finish kit (finally) ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:44 PM PST US From: "Rob W M Shipley" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Intercom as alarm annunciator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Audio panel, of sorts... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:50 AM 8/18/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > >I have 3 or 4 audio signals I need to capture somehow without a >traditional audio panel. For example, nav radio, AOA, traffic detector, >etc. I also have an ol' 4-place NAT intercom. I'm wondering if I can run >the audio out from these various devices to the otherwise unused MIC pins >on the intercom. As an example, passenger 3 will actually be AOA >annunciation. Is there any reason why this wouldn't work? This might work. You want to use a capacitor to couple audio to these inputs to keep the microphone DC power on these pins from feeding back into or being loaded by the audio sources. Headset audio levels are in the same ballpark as microphone levels so I'd say the odds are in your favor. Bob . . . I'm not very expert on these matters but don't most intercom give the pilots input priority? If this is so in this case the risk of missing an audio warning whenever using the pilot's mike seems likely. Rob Rob W M Shipley RV9A N919RV (res) Fuselage ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:22 PM PST US From: BTomm Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: V-8 Airplane power. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm If you like auto power but not the weight of a V8, why not a V6 at 230HP and approx. 430lb? I looked at a nice example of this in a RV6A at Arlington. Web info is at http://northwest-aero.com/ Bevan RV7A On Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:43 PM, Dean Psiropoulos [SMTP:deanpsir@easystreet.com] wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dean Psiropoulos" > > Interesting that this should come up at this point in time. I'm building an > RV-6A and received a solicitation from an outfit that is supposedly going to > be offering firewall forward V-8 kits for RVs (albeit at rather high > prices). Personally I have some reservations as to why I think this isn't > such a great idea and I'm including my response to the solicitor. If you > want a REALLY STRONG PSRU, then I think the Fred Geshwender designed unit > for V-8 automotive engines is THE one. It uses a HiVo silent chain like the > one driving the camshaft in a pushrod V-8 and is very stout. Fred sold the > rights to build this unit to a Wisconsin company I believe, you'll need to > get in contact with EAA, to find out who the new owner is. Speaking of > engines, I'm looking for a good source for one of the new Superior o-360 > lycoming work-a-likes. I have talked with Bart Lalond at Aerosport power > and was VERY impressed. That was when I lived in Oregon and I now live in > Florida so I'm wondering if a shop with Aerosport's reputation can be found > in the lower 48. Anyone have suggestions? Thanks. > > > Now...the V-8 vendor for RVs is as follows: > > www.predatoraviation.com > > > My response to predator aviation is as follows: > > > Interesting Chris but I've been down this road a long time ago and: > > > Decided against the alternative engine for many reasons. Most converted > auto engines had some problems which I think were partly due to people > trying to save weight by leaving off important things like the harmonic > balancer, etc. Also airframes are much lighter and have different resonant > frequencies than 2 ton steel cars. That results in vibration in things like > alternator brackets and causes them to break (even 1/8 thick steel > brackets). I commend you on doing a firewall forward package, that makes an > alternate engine setup MUCH more appealing. One of the reasons I chose a > Lycoming was because Van's has a firewall forward kit, cowl and motor mount > available and I didn't want to spend any more time trying to make those > things on my own. Then there was always getting the thing to behave once > you got everything installed. Invariably I would hear of many more hours of > fiddling with the installation to get it to work satisfactorily. > > > Your setup has two major problems that I see. One is weight and the other > is cost. One of the biggest reasons I wanted to do an auto engine setup was > because auto engines are extremely cheap (I hated the thought of spending 20 > grand on 60 year old engine technology that was basically a Volkswagen on > steroids) even with a gearbox. Also auto technology is WAY WAY ahead of 60 > year old Lycoming technology and overhauls are simple and cheap. I had > second thoughts about doing the Lycoming a couple years ago when I was at > the Northwest EAA fly-inn and saw the Subaru engine firewall forward > packages being offered by NSI. It looked and sounded great and I talked to > a fellow who'd been flying an RV-6 on one for a couple years and had good > luck with it. Alas, the kit was 25 grand!!! I could get new Lycoming from > Van's for around 20 so why spend more time and effort with something that > was relatively unproven? I think that, for half of the people who by a > Van's kit, they do it because it is the most bang for the buck and they > don't have lots of money to spend. So.asking more money than a Van's > Lycoming for your setup is shooting yourself in the foot. If you want lots > of customers I would say that you'd have to drop the price down to around 15 > grand. Why so low? Because an aircraft engine shop in Kamloops BC Canada > (by the name of Aerosport power) will sell you a good overhauled Lycoming > 0-320 for around 17 grand (and Bart is unmatched for customer service, I > can't say enough good things about the guy). An RV will scoot along just > fine on 160 hp, most of us who buy new from Van's get the 0-360 because > we're spending a ton of money anyway and it only costs a couple thousand > more to get the bigger motor). And now that Bart (and several others) are > selling assembled Superior XP360s for about a grand less than a new Lycoming > from Van's things are even better. Annnnnnd.. I think the Eggenfellner > Subaru setup also proves this point by having sold so many kits (at a low > price of 14 grand) as opposed to the NSI package (which I have not heard of > that many sold at a relatively high price of 25 grand). > > > Another problem you'll likely have (with the Van's two place aircraft) is > that your engine installation is likely to weigh 40% more than a 4 Cylinder > Lycoming. I know there are crazies out there who'll do anything and lots of > folks love to put more hp on but I think that installation is going to make > things just too nose heavy and will reduce useful load and increase stall > speed. But...you may be able to sell such a thing to RV-10 builders, maybe > even to me when I finish my RV-6 and start on a -10. I like the idea of the > V-8 engine sound and prestige and ease of maintenance and familiarity, but, > a Lycoming 0-540 flat 6 is also very smooth and also sounds like a V-8 with > a cam when idling on the ground (and will also likely be purchasable for > around the same money as your less expensive kit). Kudos for going to so > much trouble, the 2 place RVs may be the wrong target for mass sales but the > 4 place aircraft from ALL kit manufacturers should be good fodder for you. > Go for it. > > > Regards, > > > Dean Psiropoulos > > RV-6A #24907 finish kit > > >