Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:32 AM - Re: Starter Contactor Mounting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 05:33 AM - Re: Routing wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:40 AM - Re: Starter Contactor Mounting (tsled@pacbell.net)
4. 08:47 AM - aerolearn.com (mrice5@austin.rr.com)
5. 09:37 AM - 912 wiring hardware list (Sigma Eta Aero)
6. 10:02 AM - Fusible links and elec ignition (I-Blackler, Wayne R)
7. 10:31 AM - EFIS "D" 10 software (N823ms@aol.com)
8. 11:43 AM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (Dan Checkoway)
9. 11:50 AM - Avionics Master Switches (Dan O'Brien)
10. 12:31 PM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (Robinson, Chad)
11. 12:49 PM - analog altitude reminder (Garrison Sem)
12. 12:54 PM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Miles Simon)
13. 01:01 PM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (N823ms@aol.com)
14. 01:03 PM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (N823ms@aol.com)
15. 01:08 PM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (F1Rocket@comcast.net)
16. 01:09 PM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (N823ms@aol.com)
17. 01:11 PM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Canyon)
18. 01:13 PM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (Neil Clayton)
19. 01:16 PM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (N823ms@aol.com)
20. 01:19 PM - Re: analog altitude reminder (DJB6A@cs.com)
21. 01:21 PM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com)
22. 01:47 PM - Re: analog altitude reminder (Garrison Sem)
23. 02:24 PM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (Larry Bowen)
24. 03:38 PM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Jim Daniels)
25. 06:29 PM - Re: aerolearn.com (drew.schumann@us.army.mil)
26. 06:29 PM - Flight sim for kids question (drew.schumann@us.army.mil)
27. 06:36 PM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 07:08 PM - B&C Installation Details (PeterHunt1@aol.com)
29. 08:07 PM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (Robinson, Chad)
30. 08:58 PM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Rino)
31. 09:19 PM - Re: Avionics Master Switches ()
32. 11:01 PM - aerolearn.com back up! (drew.schumann@us.army.mil)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Starter Contactor Mounting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:56 PM 8/26/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom..." <tsled@pacbell.net>
>
>Hiya Mr. Robert,
>
>I need my starter to remain engaged for several seconds as I am spinning up
>a Turbine. I think it would be best to switch to the contactor you
>described as "Bullett-proof". My question is does this contactor need the
>diodes as you have on the "standard" contactor?
The S702-1 is only available in 12v as far as I know.
They have diodes built-in. Is your system 14v?
Bob . . .
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:13 AM 8/27/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>I'll take 3 dozen or so. Where do I send the money.
I'll let you know . . . I need to put my hands ON
3 dozen . . . or hopefully, many dozens.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Starter Contactor Mounting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "tsled@pacbell.net" <tsled@pacbell.net>
Hiya Mr. Bob,
It is a 12V "Bas-tard" system, a Solar T62-T-32 Turbine. The diodes are
built-in, sweet!
Thanks,
Tom...
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III bob.nuckolls@cox.net
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Starter Contactor Mounting
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:56 PM 8/26/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom..." <tsled@pacbell.net>
>
>Hiya Mr. Robert,
>
>I need my starter to remain engaged for several seconds as I am spinning up
>a Turbine. I think it would be best to switch to the contactor you
>described as "Bullett-proof". My question is does this contactor need the
>diodes as you have on the "standard" contactor?
The S702-1 is only available in 12v as far as I know.
They have diodes built-in. Is your system 14v?
Bob . . .
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mrice5@austin.rr.com
Drew-
I will check into the problems with the Aerolearn.com "internal
server error".
I appreciate the "headsup". As the owner, I am too close to
Aerolearn.com to see problems with access. But the IT dept is
2 doors away from my office. I should not be hearing about
server problems from my SWPC list!
I'm glad you like Aerolearn.com, spread the word- it is still
free to users.
Mike Rice
Chief Administrative Officer
Northrop Rice Aviation Institute of Technology
1155 W. Arbor Vitae, Suite 115
Inglewood, CA 90301
Phone 310 568-4973
Fax: 310 568-8542
Email: mrice@nrusa.com
SWPC #12295
Message 5
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| Subject: | 912 wiring hardware list |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero@yahoo.com>
Im new to the list and am putting together the panel for my 912S powered Rans S-7.
Have Bobs book, and have been reading it, and also have been searching the
archive here for info. Boy, its like drinking from a firehose!
I have the theory pretty set but now I just need the nuts and bolts details. Im
sure one of you happens to have a list of the hardware they ordered for wiring
their 912 engine (wired per Z-16). Care to share it with me?
Should I scrap the wires and terminals that Rans includes with their kits and go
with aircraft wires (Im not sure of the type of wires that Rans supplies but
it looks automotive)? Im placing orders for components so if its recommended
to replace the wires and terminals I would be interested in knowing how much
of these folks have used (obviously it depends on the number of instruments, etc
but a rough number is fine and if I have extra thats OK too).
Also, I would sure appreciate any and all advice on specific places where folks
mounted components in their 912 powered planes and maybe how they did the wire
bundles so that they are nice and neat, etc. My battery will be in the tail
and weight is a real concern for me so I plan to go with as light as I can
get away with.
Thanks folks, look forward to a nice efficient panel installation and appreciate
all your advice J
Joa
---------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Fusible links and elec ignition |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" <wayne.blackler@boeing.com>
Hi Bob,
I am wiring the dual Lightspeed ignition systems on my EZ this weekend. I plan
to run from the two batteries directly through individual fusible links (22AWG),
then 18AWG or 20AWG 22759/16 for each through individual Carling SPST switches,
and 18AWG/20AWG back to the Lightspeed boxes located above the spar.
My questions:
Is this an acceptable set-up given I do not have main/aux fuse holder type hot
buses?
If I wanted to use the switch breakers I planned to use initially (they're still
sitting in the panel), could I use a fusible link at the batt end to protect
the wire from batt to switch, and use the switch to protect the wire to the Ignition
boxes?? I'm not sure that's an acceptable practice... or practical...
or functional...
Can I use 22AWG links with 20AWG, or is this not enough 'breathing space'? Klaus
says 18AWG or 20AWG should be used. Perhaps 22AWG links and 18AWG?
Can I get some silicon covered fibreglass sleeving to suit directly from you? I
couldn't see it on B&C's website. Perhaps you know a good place to pick some
up.
Learning here. Thanks again.
Regards
Wayne Blackler
IO-360 Long EZ
Seattle, WA
Message 7
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| Subject: | EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
Just received my Dynon EFIS "D" 10 . Its great. Wired up my harness as per
instructions and fired it up on the bench. Looks great. Played with it for about
three hours, inputted airspeed bugs and got familiar with the menus.
PROBLEM. To input checklist, collect data, update software, you have to have
a laptop with a serial port. I have a Dell Laptop---I have a problem. No
serial port. Bought a cable conversion fro Radio Shack, serial to USB. Still no
luck. Called Dell, NO HELP! Called Dynon, there working on it. Seems to be a
problem with just Dell. Other non-serial port laptops have had some luck with
conversion cable.
Does anyone that has a Dell laptop found a conversion for the EFIS 10
Ed Silvanic
N823MS@aol.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Check your com port #. I think mine ended up on COM4.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <N823ms@aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS "D" 10 software
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
>
> Just received my Dynon EFIS "D" 10 . Its great. Wired up my harness as per
> instructions and fired it up on the bench. Looks great. Played with it for
about
> three hours, inputted airspeed bugs and got familiar with the menus.
>
> PROBLEM. To input checklist, collect data, update software, you have to
have
> a laptop with a serial port. I have a Dell Laptop---I have a problem. No
> serial port. Bought a cable conversion fro Radio Shack, serial to USB.
Still no
> luck. Called Dell, NO HELP! Called Dynon, there working on it. Seems to be
a
> problem with just Dell. Other non-serial port laptops have had some luck
with
> conversion cable.
>
> Does anyone that has a Dell laptop found a conversion for the EFIS 10
>
>
> Ed Silvanic
> N823MS@aol.com
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
At the hanger Saturday working on my Lancair ES I had occasion to talk to
an electrical guy installing a panel in a Lancair IVP. I described the
electrical system I've adopted (Z-14), and when I noted that I wouldn't
have an avionics master switch, his lips pursed, his eyes narrowed, and he
just shook his head. Said he's seen many avionics fried by electrical
spikes. Says he's seen it happen in planes and on the bench, where he saw
24 volts fry a 12 volt piece of equipment. The guy helping me on my plane,
who has helped out on 18 Lancairs, had the same reaction as he listened. I
started defending myself with arguments I've read on this list (avoiding
single point failures; having good over-voltage protection; the DO-160
standards, etc.). Still, they both thought I was pretty much
bonkers. They were adamant about it.
Now I know this has been thrashed through in the archives. I've read all
the threads, and it strikes me that Bob Nuckolls always wins the argument
(though I sense that those on the other side are sometimes never
convinced). Nevertheless, I can't seem to find anyone other than people
who read this list who think it's a good idea not to install an avionics
master. Even the more progressive manufacturers of certified GA planes,
Lancair and Cirrus, with new "high tech" machines, have decided to install
avionics master switches in their ships. The Lancair Columbia 300 manual
even cautions:
"There is a significant amount of electrical current required to start the
engine. For this reason, the avionics master switch must be set to the OFF
position during starting to prevent possible serious damage to the avionics
equipment."
As a non-specialist, how is one to evaluate this issue? On the one hand,
the complete absence of real empirical support for the existence of radio
killing spikes in response to Bob's requests for such evidence on this list
seems quite relevant. On the other hand, the fact that the overwhelming
majority of experienced avionics people I've spoken with think it's nuts
not to protect avionics with a separate switch/contactor/bus also seems
relevant.
Perhaps there is no simple answer?
Message 10
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| Subject: | EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
> PROBLEM. To input checklist, collect data, update software,
> you have to have a laptop with a serial port. I have a Dell
> Laptop---I have a problem. No serial port. Bought a cable
> conversion fro Radio Shack, serial to USB. Still no luck.
> Called Dell, NO HELP! Called Dynon, there working on it.
> Seems to be a problem with just Dell. Other non-serial
> port laptops have had some luck with conversion cable.
>
> Does anyone that has a Dell laptop found a conversion for the
> EFIS 10
This isn't a uniquely Dell problem - IBM has also removed their Thinkpad serial
ports on the new models. Your conversion isssue MOST LIKELY is not with the laptop,
it's with the cable. These conversion cables have a chip (two, usually)
in them that do the conversion. Most of the cheaper varieties (the ones Rat Shack
sells) are only suitable for "Human Interface Devices" like mice. These do
not actually create a virtual serial port on the PC.
What you want is a converter based on the FTDI chipset. Search on eBay and you'll
probably find a few options. The FTDI chipset includes a driver that emulates
a serial port, so traditional communications software (like that shipped with
the Dynon) can use the port. (They're none the wiser.)
By the way, I have a converter in the first (HID) category if anybody wants one.
It's free to anybody willing to pay the shipping. <grin> I made the same mistake,
and they're all but worthless. I was building a glass cockpit and using
serial to interface with the devices before I switched to CANbus. No more serial
port problems. =)
Regards,
Chad
Message 11
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| Subject: | analog altitude reminder |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Garrison Sem" <chasm711@msn.com>
I am finishing the instrument panel and I am looking for an analog altitude
reminder, basically just a scratch pad to put assigned altitudes in. I have
seen units that look like a hobbs meter that you can turn the numbers with a
thumb wheel. does anyone know of a source for these or a unit with similar
capabilities.
thanks
Paul Schattauer
rv8#9
N808PS
Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Miles Simon" <Simon.Miles@skynet.be>
Dan,
On the aeroplane I fly, (a C172) every bit of avionics equipment has its own
on/off switch and my checklist tells me to make sure everything is off
before the starter starts cranking the engine.
As I have never flown anything more sophisticated than a C172/PA28 type I
have always been bewildered by the obsession with an 'avionics master' - in
fact, none of the aeroplanes I was trained on even had one. If nothing is
switched on when you start up why is it needed? I can only assume that
Lancairs and similar aeroplanes require different procedures.
Simon Miles.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Master Switches
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
>
> At the hanger Saturday working on my Lancair ES I had occasion to talk to
> an electrical guy installing a panel in a Lancair IVP. I described the
> electrical system I've adopted (Z-14), and when I noted that I wouldn't
> have an avionics master switch, his lips pursed, his eyes narrowed, and he
> just shook his head. Said he's seen many avionics fried by electrical
> spikes. Says he's seen it happen in planes and on the bench, where he saw
> 24 volts fry a 12 volt piece of equipment. The guy helping me on my
plane,
> who has helped out on 18 Lancairs, had the same reaction as he listened.
I
> started defending myself with arguments I've read on this list (avoiding
> single point failures; having good over-voltage protection; the DO-160
> standards, etc.). Still, they both thought I was pretty much
> bonkers. They were adamant about it.
>
> Now I know this has been thrashed through in the archives. I've read all
> the threads, and it strikes me that Bob Nuckolls always wins the argument
> (though I sense that those on the other side are sometimes never
> convinced). Nevertheless, I can't seem to find anyone other than people
> who read this list who think it's a good idea not to install an avionics
> master. Even the more progressive manufacturers of certified GA planes,
> Lancair and Cirrus, with new "high tech" machines, have decided to install
> avionics master switches in their ships. The Lancair Columbia 300 manual
> even cautions:
>
> "There is a significant amount of electrical current required to start the
> engine. For this reason, the avionics master switch must be set to the
OFF
> position during starting to prevent possible serious damage to the
avionics
> equipment."
>
> As a non-specialist, how is one to evaluate this issue? On the one hand,
> the complete absence of real empirical support for the existence of radio
> killing spikes in response to Bob's requests for such evidence on this
list
> seems quite relevant. On the other hand, the fact that the overwhelming
> majority of experienced avionics people I've spoken with think it's nuts
> not to protect avionics with a separate switch/contactor/bus also seems
> relevant.
>
> Perhaps there is no simple answer?
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
Chad:
Thank you for your info. I am not an e-bay user, where would I begin to
search for one.
ED
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
In a message dated 8/27/2003 1:45:02 PM Central Standard Time,
dan@rvproject.com writes:
Check your com port #. I think mine ended up on COM4.
)_( Dan
I checked my com port. It would only recognize co 3. Still no luck.
Ed
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
Dan,
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
History is paved with non-believers bathed in the light of knowledge.
In the 15th century, Leonardo Da Vinci was practically placed under house
arrest because he dared to suggest that the world was round rather than flat
even though, knowledge of the earth's shape dated back to the times of
Aristotle (350 BC).
Bob's request for measurable and repeatable scientific data supporting the
notion that these transient spikes exist continues to go unfullfilled. While
the absence of proof to the contrary doesn't, in and of itself, prove that they
don't exist, the lack of any real hard evidence in the face of all this first
hand experience does create some doubts.
At some point, you have to trust the facts. It is a rather simple
proposition. Either you are comforatble believing that an Avionics Master is
not needed, or your are not. If not, put one in.
We promise not to put you under house arrest if you do.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
>
> At the hanger Saturday working on my Lancair ES I had occasion to talk to
> an electrical guy installing a panel in a Lancair IVP. I described the
> electrical system I've adopted (Z-14), and when I noted that I wouldn't
> have an avionics master switch, his lips pursed, his eyes narrowed, and he
> just shook his head. Said he's seen many avionics fried by electrical
> spikes. Says he's seen it happen in planes and on the bench, where he saw
> 24 volts fry a 12 volt piece of equipment. The guy helping me on my plane,
> who has helped out on 18 Lancairs, had the same reaction as he listened. I
> started defending myself with arguments I've read on this list (avoiding
> single point failures; having good over-voltage protection; the DO-160
> standards, etc.). Still, they both thought I was pretty much
> bonkers. They were adamant about it.
>
> Now I know this has been thrashed through in the archives. I've read all
> the threads, and it strikes me that Bob Nuckolls always wins the argument
> (though I sense that those on the other side are sometimes never
> convinced). Nevertheless, I can't seem to find anyone other than people
> who read this list who think it's a good idea not to install an avionics
> master. Even the more progressive manufacturers of certified GA planes,
> Lancair and Cirrus, with new "high tech" machines, have decided to install
> avionics master switches in their ships. The Lancair Columbia 300 manual
> even cautions:
>
> "There is a significant amount of electrical current required to start the
> engine. For this reason, the avionics master switch must be set to the OFF
> position during starting to prevent possible serious damage to the avionics
> equipment."
>
> As a non-specialist, how is one to evaluate this issue? On the one hand,
> the complete absence of real empirical support for the existence of radio
> killing spikes in response to Bob's requests for such evidence on this list
> seems quite relevant. On the other hand, the fact that the overwhelming
> majority of experienced avionics people I've spoken with think it's nuts
> not to protect avionics with a separate switch/contactor/bus also seems
> relevant.
>
> Perhaps there is no simple answer?
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
In a message dated 8/27/2003 1:51:08 PM Central Standard Time,
danobrien@cox.net writes:
Perhaps there is no simple answer?
Yes: Keep it simple. When in doubt install an avionics master switch. Us as
home builders can not afford someone elses principle at the expense of loosing
all or part of our avionincs package.
Ed
Lancair ES
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Canyon <steve.canyon@verizon.net>
Dan O'Brien wrote:
>As a non-specialist, how is one to evaluate this issue? On the one
>hand,
>the complete absence of real empirical support for the existence of
>radio
>killing spikes in response to Bob's requests for such evidence on this
>list
>seems quite relevant. On the other hand, the fact that the overwhelming
>majority of experienced avionics people I've spoken with think it's nuts
>not to protect avionics with a separate switch/contactor/bus also seems
>relevant.
Let me see if I can take a whack at this. If your system is assembled
and wired as Bob advises here there is not much that a master switch
can do for you other than to provide emotional comfort for those who
don't understand the design philosophy of Bob. In short, you won't
have the spikes if you follow the practices advocated here.
Even so, for the sake of discussion, let's just say you do have some
humongous system killing spike generated in your system. Spikes are
without exception (by definition) transient excursions of voltage
beyond the normal range of expected voltage and last in the very low
end of millionths of a second. How long will it take you to recognize
the spike and how will turning off the master switch some seconds after
the event help you? The answer is simple -- it won't.
Will that master switch protect from applying 28V to a 12V
system? Nope -- probably not even close to doing anything useful.
If you have built a fault tolerant system from the advice given by Bob
you will have system performance well beyond the norm for certified
aircraft.
Why don't you invite your friends to join us here? I bet they will
learn some new and more reliable tricks, even though they must still
probably continue the old religion in their certified work.
>Perhaps there is no simple answer?
Perhaps not, but then it's really just a matter of step-by-step
application of small truths to the overall system design.
Bob can defend his own ideas but thought I'd throw in my thoughts.
Steve
Message 18
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| Subject: | EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil Clayton <harvey4@earthlink.net>
Can't you use the serial port on a desktop vs a laptop. Almost all desktops
still have them.
Neil
At 03:30 PM 8/27/03, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robinson, Chad"
><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
> > PROBLEM. To input checklist, collect data, update software,
> > you have to have a laptop with a serial port. I have a Dell
> > Laptop---I have a problem. No serial port. Bought a cable
> > conversion fro Radio Shack, serial to USB. Still no luck.
> > Called Dell, NO HELP! Called Dynon, there working on it.
> > Seems to be a problem with just Dell. Other non-serial
> > port laptops have had some luck with conversion cable.
> >
> > Does anyone that has a Dell laptop found a conversion for the
> > EFIS 10
>
>This isn't a uniquely Dell problem - IBM has also removed their Thinkpad
>serial ports on the new models. Your conversion isssue MOST LIKELY is not
>with the laptop, it's with the cable. These conversion cables have a chip
>(two, usually) in them that do the conversion. Most of the cheaper
>varieties (the ones Rat Shack sells) are only suitable for "Human
>Interface Devices" like mice. These do not actually create a virtual
>serial port on the PC.
>
>What you want is a converter based on the FTDI chipset. Search on eBay and
>you'll probably find a few options. The FTDI chipset includes a driver
>that emulates a serial port, so traditional communications software (like
>that shipped with the Dynon) can use the port. (They're none the wiser.)
>
>By the way, I have a converter in the first (HID) category if anybody
>wants one. It's free to anybody willing to pay the shipping. <grin> I made
>the same mistake, and they're all but worthless. I was building a glass
>cockpit and using serial to interface with the devices before I switched
>to CANbus. No more serial port problems. =)
>
>Regards,
>Chad
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
In a message dated 8/27/2003 3:14:18 PM Central Standard Time,
harvey4@earthlink.net writes:
Can't you use the serial port on a desktop vs a laptop. Almost all desktops
still have them.
Neil
Neil:
Your absolutely correct. However, you can not drag one in the airplane for a
check flight of the AOA or Mag calibration check flight.
Ed
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: analog altitude reminder |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DJB6A@cs.com
Sporty's has them
Dave Burnham
RV6A
Message 21
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| Subject: | Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com" <bob@flyboybob.com>
Dan,
The argument that an avionics master provides any protection to the avionics
is complete hog wash! It's a procedure thing. If you don't turn off the
avionics master for starting, then what magic characteristic of the avionics
master will protect your expensive avionics? It still comes down to did the
pilot follow the correct start-up procedures. The avionics master provides
no protection, it merely provides a single point of failure for all
avionics, and a single point for conveniently turning off the avionics.
We'll ignore the argument creating a surge by turning on all the avionics at
one time with an avionics master.
In the case of folks on this list, we're trying to build aircraft electrical
systems that belong in the 21st century. Reliability is more important to
us than convenience, therefore we turn off the avionics at each unit's
on/off switch and eliminate the single point of failure of the avionics
master. There is nothing functionally different between what you are doing
and what your so called experts are trying to get you to do. It's just that
they value convenience and tradition over reliability. As for me, improving
reliability of the overall system is the best course to follow regardless of
how the certified birds are built. Thanks to lectric Bob for setting the
higher standard and encouraging us to reach it!
Regards,
Bob Lee
______________________________
N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 30024
91% done only 51% to go!
Phone/Fax: 770/844-7501
mailto:bob@flyboybob.com
http://flyboybob.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dan
O'Brien
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Master Switches
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
At the hanger Saturday working on my Lancair ES I had occasion to talk to
an electrical guy installing a panel in a Lancair IVP. I described the
electrical system I've adopted (Z-14), and when I noted that I wouldn't
have an avionics master switch, his lips pursed, his eyes narrowed, and he
just shook his head. Said he's seen many avionics fried by electrical
spikes. Says he's seen it happen in planes and on the bench, where he saw
24 volts fry a 12 volt piece of equipment. The guy helping me on my plane,
who has helped out on 18 Lancairs, had the same reaction as he listened. I
started defending myself with arguments I've read on this list (avoiding
single point failures; having good over-voltage protection; the DO-160
standards, etc.). Still, they both thought I was pretty much
bonkers. They were adamant about it.
Now I know this has been thrashed through in the archives. I've read all
the threads, and it strikes me that Bob Nuckolls always wins the argument
(though I sense that those on the other side are sometimes never
convinced). Nevertheless, I can't seem to find anyone other than people
who read this list who think it's a good idea not to install an avionics
master. Even the more progressive manufacturers of certified GA planes,
Lancair and Cirrus, with new "high tech" machines, have decided to install
avionics master switches in their ships. The Lancair Columbia 300 manual
even cautions:
"There is a significant amount of electrical current required to start the
engine. For this reason, the avionics master switch must be set to the OFF
position during starting to prevent possible serious damage to the avionics
equipment."
As a non-specialist, how is one to evaluate this issue? On the one hand,
the complete absence of real empirical support for the existence of radio
killing spikes in response to Bob's requests for such evidence on this list
seems quite relevant. On the other hand, the fact that the overwhelming
majority of experienced avionics people I've spoken with think it's nuts
not to protect avionics with a separate switch/contactor/bus also seems
relevant.
Perhaps there is no simple answer?
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: analog altitude reminder |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Garrison Sem" <chasm711@msn.com>
Dave
thanks
Paul
>From: DJB6A@cs.com
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: analog altitude reminder
>Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:18:33 EDT
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: DJB6A@cs.com
>
>Sporty's has them
>
>Dave Burnham
>RV6A
>
>
Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
Message 23
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| Subject: | EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Another D-10/laptop word of (obvious) advice: Don't rely on your laptop
battery! I had a full charge on mine, and went to update the D-10.
Within 5 minutes of use, in the middle of the update, the laptop battery
died and so did my D-10!! Had the ThinkPad been plugged into the wall,
my EFIS wouldn't be enroute back to Dynon to be reflashed....... :(
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
2003 - The year of flight!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robinson, Chad [mailto:crobinson@rfgonline.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 3:31 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS "D" 10 software
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robinson, Chad"
> --> <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
> > PROBLEM. To input checklist, collect data, update software,
> you have
> > to have a laptop with a serial port. I have a Dell
> Laptop---I have a
> > problem. No serial port. Bought a cable conversion fro Radio Shack,
> > serial to USB. Still no luck. Called Dell, NO HELP! Called Dynon,
> > there working on it. Seems to be a problem with just Dell. Other
> > non-serial port laptops have had some luck with conversion cable.
> >
> > Does anyone that has a Dell laptop found a conversion for
> the EFIS 10
>
> This isn't a uniquely Dell problem - IBM has also removed
> their Thinkpad serial ports on the new models. Your
> conversion isssue MOST LIKELY is not with the laptop, it's
> with the cable. These conversion cables have a chip (two,
> usually) in them that do the conversion. Most of the cheaper
> varieties (the ones Rat Shack sells) are only suitable for
> "Human Interface Devices" like mice. These do not actually
> create a virtual serial port on the PC.
>
> What you want is a converter based on the FTDI chipset.
> Search on eBay and you'll probably find a few options. The
> FTDI chipset includes a driver that emulates a serial port,
> so traditional communications software (like that shipped
> with the Dynon) can use the port. (They're none the wiser.)
>
> By the way, I have a converter in the first (HID) category if
> anybody wants one. It's free to anybody willing to pay the
> shipping. <grin> I made the same mistake, and they're all but
> worthless. I was building a glass cockpit and using serial to
> interface with the devices before I switched to CANbus. No
> more serial port problems. =)
>
> Regards,
> Chad
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Daniels <jwdanie@comcast.net>
> In the case of folks on this list, we're trying to build aircraft
> electrical
> systems that belong in the 21st century. Reliability is more
> important to
> us than convenience, therefore we turn off the avionics at each unit's
> on/off switch and eliminate the single point of failure of the avionics
> master.
Bob,
If I'm not mistaken, and please correct me if this is wrong, but I
thought the thinking goes that if the equipment meets DO-160 and is
otherwise designed properly then there is no need to turn it off at
all! Leave it on during cranking, shutdown, and whenever else.
Correct?
Jim Daniels
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: aerolearn.com |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drew.schumann@us.army.mil
Mike-
Thank you very much. As a reservist deployed to Iraq, whose education and employment
has been interrupted, I find your site to be incredibly helpful, and will
allow me to surprise my employer and instructors by coming out of this "year's
vacation" with a larger knowledge base about aviation maintenance and avionics.
I am currently in the process of writing an article for our EAA chapter newsletter
about on-line aviation education and I'm showcasing your site as well. Thanks
for the important and FREE service!!!
Drew
----- Original Message -----
From: mrice5@austin.rr.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: aerolearn.com
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mrice5@austin.rr.com
>
> Drew-
> I will check into the problems with the Aerolearn.com "internal
> server error".
>
> I appreciate the "headsup". As the owner, I am too close to
> Aerolearn.com to see problems with access. But the IT dept is
> 2 doors away from my office. I should not be hearing about
> server problems from my SWPC list!
>
> I'm glad you like Aerolearn.com, spread the word- it is still
> free to users.
>
> Mike Rice
> Chief Administrative Officer
> Northrop Rice Aviation Institute of Technology
> 1155 W. Arbor Vitae, Suite 115
> Inglewood, CA 90301
> Phone 310 568-4973
> Fax: 310 568-8542
>
> Email: mrice@nrusa.com
>
> SWPC #12295
>
>
> _-
> _-
> _-
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Flight sim for kids question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drew.schumann@us.army.mil
Hello all! Slightly off-topic, here. As some of you may know, my wife and I volunteer
to do aviation programs for elementary students, and have been approached
by a 4th through 6th grade after-school program teacher, who is writing a
grant to purchase a "full-control" flight simulator for kids. Is there something
out there that has rudder input with pedals that would provide this? She's
only looking to spend $1200, though I think we might be able to help subsidize
this through the EAA chapter.
I had the odd thought that maybe some enterprising individuals could build a "Link"
type trainer and affix a laptop computer to the windscreen to do an even
better job of simulating flight.
Thanks for your input ahead of time.
Drew
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:25 PM 8/27/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Daniels <jwdanie@comcast.net>
>
> > In the case of folks on this list, we're trying to build aircraft
> > electrical
> > systems that belong in the 21st century. Reliability is more
> > important to
> > us than convenience, therefore we turn off the avionics at each unit's
> > on/off switch and eliminate the single point of failure of the avionics
> > master.
>
>Bob,
> If I'm not mistaken, and please correct me if this is wrong, but I
>thought the thinking goes that if the equipment meets DO-160 and is
>otherwise designed properly then there is no need to turn it off at
>all! Leave it on during cranking, shutdown, and whenever else.
>Correct?
Exactly.
That is the crux of my request to disciples of the Avionics
Master faith. What is the source, magnitude and wave-shape of
any transient thought to be harmful to any piece of electronics
installed on an airplane be it panel-mounted or otherwise?
I've been building electro-whizzies for aircraft for just
shy of 30 years now . . . These critters have c-mos
integrated circuits, micro-processors, field-effect
tansistors, all known for their vulnerability to
relatively low energy events of sufficient voltage
to punch their bitty brains out.
I've never had the option of powering my products from an
"avionics bus" . . . but having jumped the hoops to qualify
to current configuration of DO-160 (which, by the way, gets
more hoops every year), nobody stood around wringing their
hands worrying about whether gremlins in the airplane were
going to kill my gizmo . . .
Yet, once the gizmo is ordained into the inner sanctum
of panel-mounted avionics, Shazam! . . . a miracle
occurs and the device is now worthy of extra ordinary
concessions for the sake of extending service life.
All I've ever asked is for someone to explain the physics
of this metamorphosis . . . physics that should be
stone simple and easy to understand.
I've hypothesized based on study, experience and observation
that the metamorphosis is purely cosmetic. Dog catchers
that used to function out in the heat, humidity, rain,
snow, bramble bushes and snarling dogs suddenly become worthy
of air conditioned limos, health plans and retirement packages
most can only dream about simply because they were elected
senator.
I've asked dozens of manufacturers to provide the engineering
justification for elevating their products to the senate when
mine must happily live and work in the bramble bushes. To
date, not a single attempt at explanation has been forthcoming.
Bob . . .
Message 28
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| Subject: | B&C Installation Details |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PeterHunt1@aol.com
In support of Larry, I too am a customer who feels B&C can do a much better
job of including instructions/directions with their products. After a very
frustrating week, last Saturday I wrote Tim Hedding, the engineer at B&C, a three
page letter asking for instruction on two B&C products I purchased and
pointing out other areas/products where written documentation would have helped
me.
I hope my comments were taken in the constructive intent with which they were
written.
Yes, B&C's web site answers some questions, but not most of mine. There is
also Bob's articles at http://www.aeroelectric.com/ which answer a few more.
But I can't find an index for Bob's articles and the file names are not
sufficiently intuitive for me to figure out what the content of each may be. I
did
call up and print each article out which took 9 hours over two days on my
ancient computer. That also helped some. Of course I ask questions on this list,
but some of my questions (like attaching 24 and 26 AWG wires when crimped
connectors, particularly quarter inch fast-on tabs, do not come that small),
haven't been answered. I asked that question a couple of weeks ago. Well, Bob
did
respond by only asking "What kind of avionics do you have?" Do I have to
tell Bob that harnesses made by the supplier on my S-Tec System 30, my Century
NSD 100 HSI, and my PS Engineering PCD-7100I intercom all have some of these
small wires in order to get him to answer a simple crimping question?
In support of B&C I must tell you all that Todd has a very positive attitude
about getting me help if I call and we have a good relationship. It just
sometimes takes days or a week to get an answer like a wiring diagram for their
S704-1 relay. Consequently, as a consumer of the good products of B&C I feel a
page of instruction with products would often save me hours (and at times
weeks) of wasteful hunting. As I pointed out to Tim, even a can of soup has
directions.
Pete
RV-6, working on panel, full IFR with Garmin 530
Message 29
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| Subject: | EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
This is a pre-made search that looks for FTDI in both titles and descriptions:
http://search-desc.ebay.com/ws/search/SaleSearch?satitle=ftdi&ht=1&sosortproperty=1&from=R10&sotextsearched=2&BasicSearch
If you prefer a vendor approach, this is somewhat more expensive but appears to
be the right item:
http://www.usbwholesale.com/us232%201port.htm
You may have some luck with Google searching for these.
Regards,
Chad
> -----Original Message-----
> From: N823ms@aol.com [mailto:N823ms@aol.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:00 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS "D" 10 software
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
>
> Chad:
>
> Thank you for your info. I am not an e-bay user, where
> would I begin to
> search for one.
>
>
> ED
>
>
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rino <lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca>
Dan O'Brien wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
>
> At the hanger Saturday working on my Lancair ES I had occasion to talk to
> an electrical guy installing a panel in a Lancair IVP. I described the
> electrical system I've adopted (Z-14), and when I noted that I wouldn't
> have an avionics master switch, his lips pursed, his eyes narrowed, and he
> just shook his head. Said he's seen many avionics fried by electrical
> spikes. Says he's seen it happen in planes and on the bench, where he saw
> 24 volts fry a 12 volt piece of equipment. The guy helping me on my plane,
> who has helped out on 18 Lancairs, had the same reaction as he listened. I
> started defending myself with arguments I've read on this list (avoiding
> single point failures; having good over-voltage protection; the DO-160
> standards, etc.). Still, they both thought I was pretty much
> bonkers. They were adamant about it.
Why electronics fry in airplanes and does not in cars.
I simply do no understand, is there a virus that attack airplane
electronics only?
What is so special about aircraft avionics? Is it that fragile?
Rino
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <ktlkrn@cox.net>
Simple, in a car (at least in the past 25 years) when you turn the key to
light the engine all other power to accessories is cut, i.e. an "avionics
master switch."
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rino" <lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Master Switches
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rino <lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca>
>
> Dan O'Brien wrote:
> >
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien"
<danobrien@cox.net>
> >
> > At the hanger Saturday working on my Lancair ES I had occasion to talk
to
> > an electrical guy installing a panel in a Lancair IVP. I described the
> > electrical system I've adopted (Z-14), and when I noted that I wouldn't
> > have an avionics master switch, his lips pursed, his eyes narrowed, and
he
> > just shook his head. Said he's seen many avionics fried by electrical
> > spikes. Says he's seen it happen in planes and on the bench, where he
saw
> > 24 volts fry a 12 volt piece of equipment. The guy helping me on my
plane,
> > who has helped out on 18 Lancairs, had the same reaction as he listened.
I
> > started defending myself with arguments I've read on this list (avoiding
> > single point failures; having good over-voltage protection; the DO-160
> > standards, etc.). Still, they both thought I was pretty much
> > bonkers. They were adamant about it.
>
> Why electronics fry in airplanes and does not in cars.
> I simply do no understand, is there a virus that attack airplane
> electronics only?
> What is so special about aircraft avionics? Is it that fragile?
>
> Rino
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | aerolearn.com back up! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drew.schumann@us.army.mil
Just logged in this morning and aerolearn.com is back up! They were redoing some
things, and the new format is a lot easier to navigate, at least for me.
Excellent. For anyone who hasn't tried it, it's pretty nifty.
Drew
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